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The closed eyes of the law

Posted on August 05, 2020 by

Alert readers will be aware of very considerable recent active involvement by Police Scotland in matters relating to alleged contempt of court with regard to the trial of Alex Salmond. A blog in April by Craig Murray gave some details.

So we were extremely surprised by a letter we received this week.

It rather speaks for itself, so we’ll just let you read it.

But if you’re pressed for time, allow us to summarise:

“Contempt of court is not a criminal offence in Scotland, so it’s got nothing to do with us, the police – unless of course the people alleged to have committed the contempt are supportive of Alex Salmond and we go round to their houses to threaten them about it, in which case the rules are different because [SOMEONE WAS SUPPOSED TO INSERT SOME REASONS HERE BEFORE WE SENT THIS OUT]. Now go away and stop asking awkward questions.”

Yes, that all seems absolutely fine. Nothing to worry about at all. Definitely fair and above board and absolutely normal. As you were, everyone. Sleep soundly in your beds, for justice is abroad.

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  1. 05 08 20 12:57

    The closed eyes of the law | speymouth

360 to “The closed eyes of the law”

  1. John Lowe says:

    So nae answers tae any of yer questions about Gravelli committing Contempt or any of the Newspapers. But 2 INDEPENDENCE Bloggers who make no mention of the name are charged with a Criminal Offence which is not an Offence in Scotland. I will sleep soundly knowing that SMSM are well protected.

  2. kapelmeister says:

    Nicola Sturgeon’s Scotland.

  3. Ryan McAllister says:

    So, the police sitting in their vans, intimidating Craig Murray & others, waiting on the go ahead from the crown to issue an indictment, is normal police practice? Is this written in law then that they are allowed to do that?

  4. Sharny Dubs says:

    Mr Campbell!

    You are awful!

    Keep it up.

  5. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    Amazing brass necks all round.

    Appears the Police and COPFS hope they can apply “Keep the heads down and they will go away.”

    I’m very surprised at this mess, need an enquiry perhaps the party in power at Holyrood may assist?

    No don’t look surprised I’m only joking.

    Wait till the newspapers, unions and opposition party’s hear about this, kidding again.

    All you can really say is what is that smell?

  6. Mialuci says:

    Contempt of court is not a criminal offence in scotland, I nearly chocked on ma haggis supper and spilt ma can o irn bru when a red that bit, That’s it. nae mer eatin fur me wen am readin somethin aboot freedom o information, its too bloody dangerous lol

  7. Ian says:

    Never under-estimate the powers and ruthlessness of the UK State.

    Clive Ponting died recently. He was a senior Civil Servant who blew the whistle on Thatcher about the infamous sinking of the Belgrano.

    Latterly he had serious concerns about Brexit.

    “There is no doubt that the Conservatives see Brexit as a way to completely neuter devolution and they are ruthless enough to do it.”

    “If it is no deal I think it is inevitable that the Government will take emergency powers to deal with the problems, and it’s not impossible they could use the powers to dissolve the Scottish Parliament.” –

  8. Athanasius says:

    This just sounds like the chorus of “Iko Iko” to me, and I’m a graduate of law. Nearest I can tell is this

    1-Contempt of court is not a criminal offence per se, but

    2-Courts have the right to have their proceedings respected and the power where they deem it necessary to enforce that respect, however,

    3-Judges don’t always notice somebody being contemptuous, so we, the police, the Lord Advocate, Uncle Tom Cobley or whoever have to have the judges’ backs and keep an eye out for these nefarious disrespeters of judicial majesty, and if it seems we are somewhat arbitrary in who we think is being disrespectful, that’s only because

    4-Everybody knows Craig Murray is a big fat stinky-poo and nobody likes him whereas Dani Garavelli et al are made of sunshine and lollipops and anyway that’s a stupid beard you have hairyface so ya boo shucks to you.

    If there are any QCs reading, perhaps they might comment on my legal critique. It’s been a while since I graduated.

  9. kapelmeister says:

    This disingenuous letter is talking only of civil contempt of court, which is purely a matter for the court concerned. But there’s also the offence of criminal contempt of court.

  10. schrodingers cat says:

    there is no justice in scotland for us.

  11. Astonished says:

    Kapelmeister say it all at 11.18.

    We cannot afford to let the yoons run one justice system for them (Alister campbell mp, kezia dugdale, dominic cummings et al).And another system for independanistas (Alex Salmond, Stu Campbell and Craig Murray).

    If the First Minister does not fight this with a full public enquiry by non-yoons then we are lost.

    I am sick of fighting with both hands tied behind my back.

  12. Walter Jones says:

    About 95% of the ordinary Scottish public haven’t got a clue what is happening behind the scenes in Scottish Politics.

    Sturgeon is a devious, lying, selfish bastard. (I actually hate the site of the little bitch now).

    And yet you talk to any member of the public who doesn’t follow politics and they will tell you she is the one to lead Scotland to Independence

    The media have her back for a reason, that being, she drops the drive for Independence.

    Meanwhile, her inner circle tell us to get out their and march with pride

    Fuck Off Sturgeon and your supporters.

  13. Ron Maclean says:

    ‘We act with honesty and integrity and do not compromise or abuse our position. We act with self-control and tolerance, treating members of the public and colleagues with respect and courtesy in line with our values. We do not abuse our powers or authority and respect the rights of all individuals.’

    Our Standards of Professional Behaviour – Police Scotland

  14. Bob Mack says:

    We prosecute you because you made us look more foolish than we are, and because we lost what seenmed to us a watertight case.

    We are angry,embarrassed ,vengeful.

    That sounds about right

  15. Similar to the Perjury verdict in the Sheridan stitch up,

    where it is up to the judge to decide if the perjury was an offence, was it `material for that purpose`

    did the judge think the perjury effected the trial in a material way,

    Sheridan (Scottish Nationalist) it was a `yes` from the judge,

    Coulson (Brutish Nationalist) it was a `no` from the judge.

    jeezo, when we get independence we are going to need a very big broom to sweep out the systemic corruption that permeates every corner of Scotland`s judicial system.

  16. Alf Baird says:

    The Crown (COPFS and Police) are the legal embodiment of the (British) state in Scotland. We know the British state is opposed to independence. We might therefore presume that British state institutions, i.e. the public sector in general (including its ‘Scottish Government’) are opposed to independence. Oppression of nationalist politicians and nationalist intellectuals was/is the norm in many colonial societies. This is in part why the UN describes colonialism as ‘a scourge’, i.e. a punishment, and why it should be ended. That is also fundamentally why peoples and nations seek independence, to escape from oppression and external interference in their affairs. Is Scotland really any different? Scotland Does not seem to be any different.

  17. kapelmeister says:


    Douglas Ross is the new Scots Tory leader. An hour before nominations closed at noon he tweeted to say he’d given Michael Crick an interview about what to expect “under my leadership”. That is surely a measure of the man. He can’t even wait a wee while till nominations close. Same sense of entitlement as Sturgeon.

    Anyway, now Michael Gove isn’t the only senior Tory Scot with extensive experience of going along a white line.

  18. Kev R says:

    They’re stating they’re going to be looking again at the article by Garavelli and others, subject to your email?

  19. Clapper57 says:

    @ Kapelmeister @ 12.21pm

    Aye Kapelmeister…a coronation…so I’ll repost a comment I made on a previous thread :

    It’s a wee shame yon Douglas Ross on Saturday launching his leadership campaign for the Tories in the branch office…and then Sacre Bleu ….ANOTHER piece of Tory sh*t hits the fan to undermine his wee event in the news that a serious sexual allegation has been made against one of his political colleagues….so serious the MP was ARRESTED….mind you the Tories dinnae think it’s THAT important cause the MP in question hasnae had the Whip removed…..note…always remove a WHIP in sexual assault allegations….ask any Domin*trix

    Vote for Ross Tory boy….oh wait a minute …..forget that sheeite….here’s another Tory boy allegedly another ‘naughty’ one like yon Charie Elphicke…..

    Vote for Tory Ross….from the party who campaign by throwing stones from their Glass houses….main message is Do as WE say not as WE do…..

    Ross has enlisted a tag team of Tits in Ruth D and Michael Gove…you know Michael he’s the one that supports you then stabs you in the back if he sees a benefit for himself…aided by his minder…the wife….Michael was a Goldfish in a previous life…and looking at him as a human you can see he , in this life, did not completely morph as he still has some distinctive facial features he had in his previous life…..he does not BOWL me over ……

    Ruth D resigned as leader of the branch office…but has now deployed the Yeh But No But Yeh Tory tactic of mixed messages in returning to mind the local shop for a presumptuous Douglas….or as they say in Tory circles….a Shoo in….I believe they are considering a Monkey, Donkey and a Squirrel ( squirrel helps deflect) to stand against him in the leadership Contest NOT contest…….meanwhile Michelle Ballantyne still bilin at the thought of LOSING to Jackson who himself LOST out as HQ gave him his P45……sorry meant when he resigned…she hasn’t BECOME bitter…because she has always BEEN bitter…Bitter Together indeed.

    This is not a political party but a Soap opera …….

  20. PhilM says:

    Going to play devil’s advocate (!) here…
    Is this reply to the Rev. above not just another example of legalese which, unless you’re a lawyer, you won’t immediately appreciate the distinction being made because the distinction itself is fucking stupid.
    Here on my left is exhibit A, the criminal law of Scotland, which applies to everyone at all times and whose operation is described in the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995. On my right is exhibit B, the Contempt of Court Act 1981, which is a UK act of Parliament and though contempt is not labelled a crime as such* it can be categorised as an offence against the course of justice. They are clearly different beasts, but both can hit your pocket and both can make decisions about where you’ll be sleeping tonight. Where the distinction is meaningful in practice is that if you want to appeal against a contempt of court finding you cannot do it in any criminal appeal court, but you can appeal by way of petition to the Nobile Officium (remember that weirdo?!) at the Court of Session.
    (* “Contempt of Court is not a crime and is in many ways sui generis, but since it is punishable by fine and imprisonment it may be regarded as virtually a crime, at least where the court in question is a criminal one”. Chapter 50 Contempt of Court, Gordon’s Criminal Law (3rd ed.) by Michael G. A. Christie)
    I am going to suggest that the issue here is so simple that the COPFS does not want to say it outright. All the journalists who the Rev. claims have shown contempt did so after the trial, whereas Craig, Mark and others did so before it or perhaps during it (I will accept a cuff roond the lug if I’ve got this wrong). Anyway, there’s no real excuse for using legalese to a member of the public without making absolutely clear the distinctions being made. That’s another reason why the law is an ass (beg your pardon m’lady…)
    Judges and sheriffs have a lot of power much of it unexamined. Anyone interested in digging deeper will be able to fill their boots by reading Peter Cherbi’s blog A Diary of Justice & Injustice.
    All the above being said, the behaviour of the police described above is really alarming, which then provokes the thought…we all want independence NOW, but what really is this Scotland that we want independence for. Sometimes I don’t recognise at all the country I’ve lived in all my life. When we are independent, I hope enough people are ready to start the civil society-led institutions that we will need pretty much from day one. A proper anti-corruption outfit is needed before even that…
    Going back to bed.

  21. jfngw says:

    Police Scotland are merely a go between here, it is the court that decides if a contempt has been committed and the court that instigates the police investigation. This is above the police and goes straight to the top of the justice system in Scotland, they are the sole arbiters of justice and who will be charged.

    We as citizen’s have no say even when we can see a contempt of greater magnitude being committed and ignored because it fits the narrative the powerful want. It would seem that quote “We say no, and we are the state’,? Well we say yes – and we are the people.” doesn’t really hold much water when confronting the justice system.

  22. John Thomson says:

    Looks like it is not just England we have to fight but Scottish police and government to. Awe well needed something to keep me awake at nights. Knock knock who’s there the fucking nazi police, about sums it up right

  23. John Thomson says:

    Jfngw if the police investigate they should have the info ref questions asked

  24. jfngw says:

    A message from Douglas Ross

    Becoming leader of the Scottish Conservatives today is the honour and privilege of a lifetime. Now our focus must turn to earning the trust of people looking for a positive and credible alternative for Scotland, and who want a fresh start for our country. I hope you’ll join us.

    I’ve absorbed the message but the only response that comes to mind is ‘fuck off racist boy’.

  25. GeeH says:

    Rev – have you seen the story on the front page of the Stirling Observer today? SNP councillor from Bannockburn resigns from party citing toxic abuse. Looks like another gender critical SNP woman driven out by the same abusive gang of kids that we keep hearing about.

    Interestingly she claims that her husband, ex MP Steven Paterson, was blocked from standing as an MP by undemocratic means to make way for Alyn Smith to be parachuted in.

    I’ve only been aware of the dodgy goings on from the SNP since their moves to block Joanna Cherry but it now looks like they’ve been busy for over a year to make sure their favourite pro-trans candidates get selected. Might be worth investigating some more to find out exactly how they’ve been undemocratic in the Alyn Smith selection – there’s definitely more to be exposed.

  26. Hugh Keith says:

    So any police action re contempt of court is unlawful and illegal?

    Misuse of public funds, gross misconduct………

  27. Wulls says:

    I am truely gobsmacked by this……
    So basically the police were investigating a non existent “crime”
    🙂 🙂 🙂
    Sweet Jesus Mr no win no fee is going to be busy……

  28. Josef Ó Luain says:

    From the Carmichael trial onward, it’s been pretty much in-your- face what’s going in Scotland. No better man to consult on the matter than the new and welcome contributor: Mr K MacAskill methinks.

  29. Bob Mack says:

    Holyrood if wanting to remove a judge, must apply to the Queen. Only she can do so. England in effect controls our Juciciary.

  30. jfngw says:

    @John Thomson

    The answer to the rev questions is no, if they had not received a complaint regarding the publication then they would not have done any of these. Even if they had I’m dubious whether they would divulge this, how would you react if someone had contacted the police asking if you had been investigated, would you expect them to divulge these details.

  31. Terry callachan says:

    No No No ,

    LOOK …if you want to understand what is going on with this whole business read the post made by
    PhilM at 1236hrs today , he’s got it right and has explained it correctly.

    It was always a matter of contempt of court during the trial
    Contempt of court after the trial

    The only sticking point is that revealing the names of the ten women after the trial as some journalists in the British media did , is still clearly contempt of court or at least you would think so but of course it’s up to the judge to decide and the judge has closed the case the judge may well be reluctant to open it for a contempt of court case against british newspapers but appears to be happy to continue the action against those who showed contempt during the trial .

    Is it fair ?
    Of course not

    Is it easier for the judge ?
    I would say yes it is

    There’s power for you

    And as PhilM says the contempt of court act 1981 is a British Act of Parliament so it has the power to hear the case anywhere not just in Scotland

  32. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi PhilM at 12:36 pm.

    You typed,
    “All the journalists who the Rev. claims have shown contempt did so after the trial, whereas Craig, Mark and others did so before it or perhaps during it (I will accept a cuff roond the lug if I’ve got this wrong).”

    Three links for you…
    “A journalist nearly caused Alex Salmond’s trial to collapse on its second day after tweeting the name of one of his accusers.
    The revelation has been published following Mr Salmond’s acquittal on 12 sexual assault charges facing him, along with another which was found not proven.
    According to the i, the journalist in question swiftly deleted the post, but not before it was seen by prosecutors in the case.
    Alex Prentice QC pointed out to trial judge Lady Dorrian that the “very large following” of the journalist involved, who had more than 30,000 followers on the social media site, meant it presented a significant risk to the woman’s anonymity.
    Lady Dorrian described the post as an “egregious breach” of protocol and banned the unnamed reporter from tweeting for the rest of the trial.”
    That’s from,

    “When Salmond’s former Chief of Staff Geoff Aberdein told the court he and one of the complainers had first met with her on March 29, 2018 – four days earlier than the date she previously gave the Scottish Parliament – several of them almost spontaneously combusted.”
    That’s from the Garavelli story in the Scotsman (originally published by Tortoise),

    Then have a look at this story in the Shropshire Star, from January 2019…

  33. jfngw says:


    That’s not what the reply says, it’s not a crime as a crime could be reported by anyone. It is an offence that can only be raised only by the court and once raised they then investigate it.

    That’s why I said the police are the go betweens here, once raised by the court they are, I would presume, obliged to investigate.

    We can scream all we want about the injustice, but be have no say, the Scottish justice system is the sole arbitrator on contempt. It might seem unfair but it is the reality.

  34. Grouser says:

    Douglas Ross is the newly crowned (not elected) leader of the UK Conservative and Unionist Party in Scotland. Surely these people should drop the word ‘Scottish’ from their name.

  35. Terry callachan says:

    jfngw…1.38pm …I agree with you

    The judge will decide if their case has been interfered with by contempt of court it’s up to them personally to decide , if they decide it has then they will instruct the police to take action if they decide it has not then no action will be taken because no law has been broken.

    How does a judge decide if action should be taken ?

    I would think firstly they will consider whether there is contempt
    The meaning of contempt is to show deliberate disregard
    If the judge decides it’s not deliberate contempt I think they will do nothing

    If the judge decides that the contempt was deliberate I think they will take action

    Can you accidently show contempt ?
    I would say NO
    Contempt is a disregard for something to which you should show respect

    I would say you cannot disregard something accidently
    Surely you have to regard it in order to be able to disregard it ?
    In other words purposely ignore it

    Presumably the judge thinks the British media were ALL blissfully unaware

  36. MikeW says:

    “Contempt of court is not a criminal offence in scotland”

    That is not quite what it said, it said it was an offence the the law in scotland, and so police, do not know , but it is an offence- i take it that what they meant was the police can not charge you with contempt of court, only the courts can do that. At which point the police will act on the instruction of the court.

  37. jfngw says:

    To celebrate the new Tory leader I’m currently listening to ‘Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves’.

  38. alistair x says:

    Speaking as a former member of Stirling snp i had no say or vote in the selection of Alyn Smith as my representative,first i knew i think, was reading it in the national.
    im no fan of Stephen patterson but i would have liked a hustings,some hard questions put to candidates and a democratic vote, Stirling really is a rotten bourgh

  39. Robert Graham says:

    yeh been there the bigger the organisation the more hoops ,wrong turnings blind alleys you come across all intended to make you give up .
    Across Scotland right now wee armies of totally bloody useless people giving out false ,misleading ,totally wrong answers to simple problems the place is full of them , they probably go home at night complaining of exhaustion,Exhausted by exasperating customers or callers their whole days work is pointless they are an impediment to solving simple problems .
    Aye they are exhausted and the public are totally pissed off

  40. Iain mhor says:

    @jfngw 12:36pm

    Indeed, it’s the only part the response does cover.
    It is not a matter for the Police, unless instructed by the Courts.
    That would also apply to any investivation by the Police – they would have to be instructed by the Courts.

    Of course the next obvious question is; who else is allowed to instruct the Police and/or utilise their ‘services’? Now that, it turns out, is quite a long list.

    So ‘Police action’ against person ‘X’, ostensibly about matters relating to matters ‘Y’; does not necessarily need to be something which was instigated by the Police, or indeed the Courts.

  41. Colin Alexander says:

    Talking of the justice system in Scotland.

    Re: The Forward As One Court Case on the legality of the Scot Parl holding an indyref.

    The court refused Martin Keatings request for a costs limit order.

    So, basically he could be hit with costs of £150,000. If I remember correctly the reasons for refusal is that, this matter could be settled by other means (not specified) and that he can crowd fund the costs.

  42. stuart mctavish says:

    Excellent exchange- particularly from the police whose statement manages to infer, in a single paragraph, that:

    The answer to questions 1-5 is NO, otherwise there would have been a record and information held.

    The answer to the “who” part of question 6 is that it is NOT A CRIMINAL OFFENCE, but can nonetheless incur punishment at the behest of the Crown, the Defence or the Judge.

    The answer to the “what grounds” part of question 6 is unknown, but the court’s discretion in deciding the issue is limited in so far as any punishment must be effective (ie timely), vindicated (with reference to the authorities with which the court is entrusted) and, above all, consistent with the objective of preserving the DUE AND IMPARTIAL ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE

    The answer to question 7 is also NO.

    The answer to question 8 is that, of those entitled to seek punishment for contempt (the Judge, the Crown and the Defence), only the Crown may petition the court in relation to matters of potential contempt arising outside it. It follows that, in order to do so, the court in question must still be active..

    Given that the logical conclusion to the foregoing should result in humble apologies and dropped charges, it remains possible that the only reason they could not answer awkward questions about threatening people supportive of Alex Salmond is that those particular questions turned out to be better left unasked 🙂

  43. Pete says:

    Your description of gypsies is accurate.

  44. Colin Alexander says:

    To give some context to current events, I recommend a read of this bio about the life of Thomas Muir:

    “He also became a fierce critic of a legal system that he believed was biased in favour of the rich”.

    “The British government became concerned about Thomas Muir and a spy was recruited to gather information about his political activities. After the spy had gathered what was considered enough evidence, Thomas Muir was arrested on 2nd January, 1793, and charged with sedition”.

  45. Ottomanboi says:

    Mad, bad, undemocratic and probably illegal.
    Slàinte Aberdeen!

  46. Dogbiscuit says:

    Parr for the course under the autocratic Sturgeon regime.
    Is it true Aberdeen is ‘locked down’ again?

  47. Oor Steve says:

    See previous entry. The reply you received is what is called ‘blowing stoor up your ass’.

  48. Robert Louis says:

    Are those responsible, so arrogantly sure they are BEYOND the law or any kind of rules, that they feel happy to produce these responses?

    This is the kind of thing expected in a corrupt dictatorship. Everybody knows it’s baloney, but there is nothing that can be done, since THEY ARE THE LAW. Do those in power, such as the justice secretary actually realise how bad this all looks. This is NOT a trivial matter.

    Prosecuting one person for contempt, whilst another (who happens not to be a Salmond supporter) is allowed to write whatever, and with impunity – or should that be IMMUNITY, to prosecution. This is an abuse of power, no ifs, no buts.

    Does the law only apply to Salmond supporters, but for anybody else, it is a free for all??

    Keep at it REV. Scots law and legal system is blatantly corrupt. They seem almost proud of the fact.

  49. Robert Black says:

    This is a very slippery and disingenuous response by Police Scotland. Contempt of court may not be a crime, but (a) it can be punished in the same way as a crime and (b) one of the most common ways for an alleged contempt to be brought to the attention of the court is through proceedings instituted by the public prosecutor. And in deciding whether to institute such proceedings the public prosecutor (the Lord Advocate or a member of his Crown Office staff) can instruct the police to conduct any necessary investigations. Did the Crown Office instruct the police to conduct such investigations into the articles by Dani Garavelli (and by others) that enabled jigsaw identication to be made of (some of) the alphabet women? If not, the Crown Office should be asked why not. If the Crown Office did instruct such investigations (or concluded without the necessity of police investigation that jigsaw identification had been enabled) it should be asked on what basis of law or policy it was decided in some cases to refer the matter to the court as potential contempt and in other cases not to do so.

  50. Jfngw says:


    So you laid your money down then.

  51. Dogbiscuit says:

    Sounds like the Judge acts out with his remit.
    Politically motivated charge? We really are living in a dank little Tyranny.
    Count Dankula has interesting stuff to say about the Hate Bill. You should check it out.

  52. Dogbiscuit says:

    Hey Police Scotland all you rainbow boys and girls and whatever else, partial application of the Law is one of the hallmarks if a tinpot dictatorship.

  53. kapelmeister says:

    See that Douglas Ross was happy the other day to retweet a message of support he received from Argyll Tory councillor Bobby Good, he of the controversial adler tattoo.

  54. Republicofscotland says:


    According to Richard Silverstein, a high ranking Israeli source has told him that Israel, that a Hezbollah ammunitions cache was the target in Beirut, and unfortunately the cache was situated next to the ammonium nitrate depot.

  55. Dogbiscuit says:

    Nicola Diabola brutalising her own people threatening to send track and trace STASI to our doors .
    Is there no one on here dubious about the Government media covid narrative?
    I see it all as part of the same overall UN strategy to turn the human race into a farmed species.
    Everything’s heading that way unless you choose to believe media word magic.
    Words and how they are manipulated by media have magic to over power the frightened.
    Independence would get in the way of the evil bastards program.
    Does anyone on here realise that many old people were condemned to death through a withdrawal of sustenance? Then classed as covid deaths. I know this is an Independence site but there’s a small matter of crimes against humanity.
    No wonder it’s the public locked up and not our Governments.
    You won’t trust First Minister on Salmond case but you’ll trust her on covid?
    Jesus fucking Holy Hell Christ.

  56. Dave Hansell says:

    On the assumption that Contempt of Court action has been taken against Craig Murray and Mark Hirst on the basis of the Contempt having taken place whilst the trial was taking place and the Court was in session; whilst no Contempt of Court action was taken against Corporate Media on the grounds that the Court was not in session at the time of their publication (and this would need to be properly checked and clarified):

    It would seem reasonable to surmise that this possibility supplies the answer to another question previously raised on other threads published on this site?

    Which is that, the trial having finished and the Court no longer in session, Contempt of Court proceedings (at least) could not be brought against others for reproducing the section of the Corporate Media article which has already been deemed acceptable* to be published without legal consequences.

    * Arising from the legel principle of implied terms – in this case contained in the correspondence which is the subject of his article.

  57. Robert Louis says:

    Scots law in a nutshell.

    Crown office: ‘prosecute that man, because he supported Salmond, but don’t prosecute anybody else for the SAME offense or WORSE, if they happily attack Salmond’.

    Crown office: ‘Oh, and remember, if anybody asks, we know nothing about this, and were not involved, neither were the police, or the judge, or the justice secretary, or the civil service or anybody. In fact, from what we recall, none of us were even here, their are NO records and ‘contempt’ isn’t even a crime’.

  58. Dogbiscuit says:

    Beirut the ammo dump was intended for shipment to Libya for Turkish proxies.

  59. Dogbiscuit says:

    A lot of sabotage happening in Mid East .

  60. Dogbiscuit says:

    Hello Israel hello Bibi.

  61. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Dave Hansell at 4:08 pm.

    You typed,
    “whilst no Contempt of Court action was taken against Corporate Media on the grounds that the Court was not in session at the time of their publication”

    You also typed,
    “Which is that, the trial having finished and the Court no longer in session, Contempt of Court proceedings (at least) could not be brought against others for reproducing the section of the Corporate Media article which has already been deemed acceptable* to be published without legal consequences.”

    From Wednesday July 08 2020,

  62. Famous15 says:

    Dogwhistle we see you. Your views are so obvious and alien!

  63. Tannadice Boy says:

    Something is rotten in the state of Denmark. I am still trying to get over my last post. At least Stu is in Bath so a pretty long arm of the law to reach him but not so for people living in Scotland. What has gone wrong?. Still hoping something breaks in the Salmond Inquiry although I am not so confident about that after this exercise in pass the parcel. Scotland is now a fiefdom for the few. Desperate for a new party myself.

  64. callmedave says:

    Catching up:

    Another soft soap letter and the associated brush off there.

    @Brian Doonthetoon

    Thanks for those links:

  65. Mialuci says:

    If you have a good lawyer or QC as I had no liars can beat you, in my own case the case was thrown out of court, the prosecution new it was 2 lying police officers and they kept me going to pleading diets for about 6 months.
    Eventually they had to throw it out of court because I was taking it the whole way, and the 2 lying coppers would have had to take the oath, and they new I had the proof I was innocent
    I was raging, I wanted those 2 liars to take the oath.
    I remember a couple of guys in england getting 18 years each for perjury, it actually carries a life sentence, and not a lot of people know that, but I bet you Michael Cain does lol

  66. Mike d says:

    The scottish judicial system and police Scotland are unionist to the backbone.

  67. Joan Savage says:

    So… the Judge, the Defence and the ‘Crown’ can raise a complaint of ‘Contempt of Court’.

    So why has Alex’s lawyer not done so? Alex’s defence team should have raised a complaint against Dani Garavelli and co.

  68. Kenny says:

    Regarding the law: I am physically in Scotland, but my website is in England (at least, the server is). I know that in matters of law, this means that UK law applies to whatever I publish.

    So what if I write on my website “A man with a penis is not a woman”?

    Can I still get prosecuted under Humza’s hate laws?

    [Reading the above, I cannot help thinking what delightful descendants of the Scottish Enlightenment we now have!]

  69. Elmac says:

    How much longer are we to endure this crooked, venal state? To tolerate how we are treated requires a vested interest in the status quo or just plain stupidity. Much as I despise the former I can understand it. What I fail to understand is those who cannot be arsed to stir themselves to do anything for the benefit of themselves or others and simply accept all the shit which is thrown their way by corrupt politicians, broadcasters and printed media. Even the dumbest and most disinterested amongst us must have had their eyes opened over the last few years.

    Now we have the added problem of a demonstrably compliant Scottish Government who blatantly ignore open goals on the route to independence to keep themselves and their mates in a cushy job. I thought we Scots had more about us than that. It would appear I was wrong. The SNP are completely compromised and probably infiltrated as well. If they do not urgently cleanse the party from top to bottom, starting with Sturgeon, Murrell and their cronies, then a credible alternative must arise. We need leaders like AS and JC who will live and breathe independence to get us out of this shit hole union. In the meantime STOP CONTRIBUTING TO THE SNP. Rip up your membership cards and tell them why. The only thing these freeloaders understand is money, or the lack of it.

  70. Alec Lomax says:

    Dogbiscuit listens to Count Dankula, he of the sieg-heiling dug. Sez it all.

  71. boris says:

    The “New Labour” Government, using its massive majority forced through a devolution deal but true to form all was not as it appeared to be. Arch Unionists, Blair and Brown cobbled together a package of measures crammed full of caveats many of which would surface over time. They devolved little and removed a lot.

    Voting arrangements, introducing a strange hybrid form of proportional representation were put in place by the Labour government and the Lib/Dem’s ensuring there would be a permanent coalition government in Scotland to the exclusion of the SNP and the Tory’s.

    In 2003, a Commons Select Committee highlighted an urgent need for the UK government to introduce organisational change in Westminster, at the centre of government, reflecting the new political relationships with the recently devolved Scottish Government.

    Failure, on the part of Unionist politicians, to identify the purposes of devolution and put in place agreed “terms of reference” for the newly devolved government might introduce difficulties arising resulting in a “war of wills” which could encourage the UK government to weaken or indeed set aside devolution.

  72. Walter Jones says:

    Remember the days when we would smuggly sit back and tell the world,

    “That’ll never happen to my Party, The SNP”.

    And low and behold…

    Sturgeon has conned, duped, rogered, every single one of us.

    You have to ask,,,Who is the idiots, us or her?

  73. Walter Jones says:

    I of course am now a proud EX SNP member.

    Since 1st Jan 2020.

  74. Robert Graham says:


    Followed the link to the Times and the brief story ,

    I wondered why Prentice QC for the prosecution has any right to intervene in a Contempt of Court case , is it a contempt of his court ,does the court follow his directions does he have the authority to say who the accused calls in a contempt of court hearing ,
    Surely this Prentice is in contempt himself by raising the question of the witnesses who they are or what they might say, the fact he has chosen to intervene places him in contempt, he has prejudiced the whole hearing by asking the judge to question the validity of the chosen witnesses ,not just that he seems to be clairvoyant in predicting what if anything they might say or how valid their contribution might be.
    Cheeky bloody QC , I mean QC another jumped up bleedn Lawyer .

  75. markj says:

    So if A.S’s legal petitioned the court that Garbaldi has commited contempt she would be up in court too? Wonder if it was the judge or the prosecutor who pressed against Craig.

  76. twathater says:

    There are times when Auld people wished they were young again and there are times when auld people are thankful that they are auld , at this point in Scotland’s history I am regretful it is the latter

    I have never felt so sickened or ANGRY that a group of people who we trusted and gave our support to , who we thought had integrity and honesty , who we looked up to to provide a better more socially equal society for our children’s and grandchildren’s future has turned out to be a hollow shell mired in corruption and reeking of the putrid stench from which we are trying to escape

  77. Tannadice Boy says:

    Twathater says

    I can’t improve on your comment. Except to say I feel the same

  78. Gregor says:

    What robust safety measures are in place (e.g. processes, frameworks, oversight and legislation), preventing a ROTTEN ROGUE Crown Office from exploiting the State apparatus – as a weapon (e.g. a Police Scotland weapon)…

  79. jfngw says:


    Of course you can, the location of the actual equipment is pretty much irrelevant. If you lived in England and published it from England then it’s unlikely as it would require Scots law to seen as superior to English law over free speech.

    Whereas if you are a US citizen and block access from the UK then you can publish anything that names anyone as long as it doesn’t break any US laws. But if you virtually become an American you could still read it.

  80. Alexander macDonald says:

    Basically the courts (judges, defence, prosecution/crown) get to decide who gets served with a court action for contempt.
    I expect in this case that it is the crown.

    Why should prosecution lawyers be concerned about the content of pro Independence blogs but not jigsaw ID-ing in articles by newspaper journalists?

  81. dakk says:

    Of course the british state controlled/control all their colonies by controlling the institutions of those colonies.

    Notice the Police Scotland badge designers went to the trouble of placing the English King’s Crown atop.

    British state will always try to neutralise threats including those who have turned full native.

  82. Beaker says:

    Best response would be from Manuel in Fawlty Towers:

    “I know notheenk…”

    Note to the Angry Brigade: I am simply quoting a line that is in the public domain and was in no way trying to apply racial or xenophobic profiles…and I’m declaring myself as cardiosexual so I cannot be touched. (cardiosexual = if it’s got a pulse… 🙂 )

  83. Tannadice Boy says:

    Dakk says

    I normally agree with your posts. But on this occasion I respectfully disagree. This is Scotland under Sturgeons stewardship. Nothing else and nothing more. I wish it was different. I wish for a British State conspiracy. I wish for something that prevents me from being a mug.

  84. dakk says:

    Tannadice Boy

    The whole affair is one murky puzzle

    I await the considered views of Alex Salmond himself in order to help complete the ‘jigsaw’.

  85. Dave Hansell says:

    Briandoonthetoon 4:20

    It would seem there are three other words I typed at the very beginning which appear to be missing in what has been quoted. Which, as a result (seemingly accidentally?), totally alter and misconstrue what was being said.

    Consequently, in the interest of balance it’s worth including those three words, which are a caveat to everything which follows:

    “On the assumption.”

    The article in the link provided does not seem to get us very far as the way the article reports matters contains conflicting observations on the issue.

    Paragraph one contains a clear conditional statement:

    “The public must not identify the women who claimed that they were sexually assaulted by Alex Salmond when a contempt of court hearing takes place, a judge has warned.”

    ie the offence exists when the hearing is in session. Implying that there may (please note that conditional word) be some difference when the Court case is not in operation?

    This conditionality is further argued in the article in Paragraph five referring to the argument of the prosecution which is again conditional on the same point:

    “The prosecution claims that some of the comments on his blog broke strict legal guidelines about what can be reported during High Court proceedings.”

    Whilst this point is seemingly contradicted in Paragraph nine:

    “Lady Dorrian, who presided over Mr Salmond’s trial, added: “All those who are viewing these proceedings should be aware that the original contempt of court order remains in place.””

    The fact that the judge has not acted to enforce that court order in the case of Corporate media providing the means to identify complainants after the Court case had concluded and the Court no longer in session suggests, at best, that he judge does not believe their own statement quoted above.

    If she did she would have acted upon that statement in a consistent manner.

    As matters stand the judge’s inconsistent non action in regards the other existing instances of such identification is itself negligent in protecting the complainants and actually undermines the contempt order by virtue of the inconsistency.

    If I were in the position of the complainants in such circumstances it would seem reasonable to submit a complaint against the judge for failing to consistently apply the Contempt judgement on the grounds that it is not being properly applied in all instances.

    Not only putting the complainants at risk but undermining the rule of law which the judge, if they are doing their duty properly, competently and professionally, should not be doing.

    It is just as well not everyone in these islands are as incompetent in their job and duties as the judge clearly is in this case.

  86. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Deputy Chief Constable (Local Policing) Will Kerr OBE on the news there re Covid lockdown reimposed in Aberdeen.

    DCC Kerr has over 27 years policing service in Northern Ireland before moving to a director’s role in the National Crime Agency in January 2017. He then joined Police Scotland in September 2018.

    Another migrant to Scotland from Ulster in a position of authority (think how many there are including in the media).

    Maybe he is the best man for the job and I’m reading too much into Torrance’s “Ulsterisation of Scotland” comment form a few years back!

  87. Gregor says:

    It’s my perception that a number of key Actors within ‘Salmond prosecution arena’ are acting as corrupt, duplicitous, morally and ethically bankrupt weapons of State (& politics).

    Transparency and accountability has the ability to resolve my perception…

  88. Tannadice Boy says:

    Yeah I am a Salmond man. The best politician in Europe at the time. And after what he has been through I would understand if he give politics up. But I would urge him once more into the breech. It’s surely needed. He could walk around a room and endear himself to everyone. Well I am looking for a new party.

  89. Doug says:

    Latest on Forward as One court case:

  90. Bob Mack says:


    Just donated. This is very important indeed and I hope we get right behind them.

  91. Gfaetheblock says:

    Dave Hanselll at 16.08

    Mark Hirst appears to be being prosecuted for making threatening statements to witnesses in a trail a week after the trail ended.

  92. Tannadice Boy says:

    I am all in favour of court cases that challenge the Section 30 presumption. But what about when the people of Scotland have a grievance against the Scottish Government? What redress have we got?. None I would suggest.

  93. bipod says:

    Absolutely outrageous, because of a so called “cluster” of 54 cases in aberdeen she has used that as a justification to place it under lockdown. Remind us again nicola how many people have died in Scotland in the past month, how many in aberdeen, how empty are the hospitals in aberdeen, when was the last time a covid patient showed up at hospital in aberdeen because I know in forth valley they have only had one covid case that required hospitilization in the past month? They must be overflowing right if this is the second wave.

    You could tell from the way she has been talking recently that she has been desperate to do this in Scotland. She has been looking over the border and watching what the dictator boris has been doing in the north of England enviously, she has been looking for any excuse. No doubt Glasgow is next on her list.

    According to Professor Carl Heneghan, the director of oxfords cebm, there is no second wave. The increased number of cases that are being found are a reflection of the massive increase in testing and the government actively seeking out people. It is suprising that the government doesn’t even try to factor that in, they won’t even consider it as a possibility.

    I also have noticed that the media and the doom mongers have gone suprisingly quiet recently on the outbreaks in Brazil and the southern US states. That is probably because the cases are all decreasing there and 10s of millions of people have not died.

  94. Alec Lomax says:

    Bipod – another McIcke.

  95. Lothianlad says:

    Quote from craig murray..

    Why oh why is the SNP focused on dividing us?

    Simple answer Craig, Infiltration by agents/ activists of the british state!

    I’ve posted several times before that the SNP being the biggest threat to the british state was, and remains, infiltrated and influenced by the british secret service. Much the same way as the Irish Republican movement was and is!

    I’m not claiming to have proof of this, no one possibly can, or the spooks would be doing a terrible job of concealment.

    But the evidence of division and delay in pursuing the parties main goal of independence is plain to see.

    As the highest levels of the IRA were infiltrated no one should be surprised the reach of the british state in opposing independence.

    Very high profile figures in the SNP are bribed and/or blackmailed to cause opposition. They are backed by a complicit unionist media and, like a wounded animal are close to vicious defence of the state.

    They will be keeping their powder dry at the moment, but they are nearing end game for the union.

    The independence movement should continue to demand answers from and promote change from the policy makers and leadership of the SNP.

    Imho, sturgeon is controlled by the brit secret service, not as a spook or double agent or cloak and dager spy, but, as the chief administrator of british rule in Scotland.

    Effectively paying back thet people who paved the way for her rise to the top.
    What better way to control your enemy than by having the leader in your back pocket.

    The sturgeon trolls will of course disagree, but the evidence given above cannot be so easily explained away.

  96. willie says:

    Everything points to a corrupted Rule of Law where the state, or state agents, are used to abuse political opponents.

    It is the non violent form of the bullet and the bomb which is another form of abuse by the state when conducting its foreign policy – Iran, Iraq et al.

    This is the way the UK operates. Always has done. And domestically, they will kill too if the need arises.

    Although we are led to believe otherwise Nazi Germany was in truth little different from GB. And the Concentration Camps, well just look at the Boer War in South Africa. Or any of the counter independence activities of UK forces in Kenya, Cyprus, India et al.

    Scotland is thus just getting the same treatment now that the populace has woken up and is democratically trying to assert its democratic right. Unless folks resist and actively pursue independence, then it is only going to get worse.

    But, and this is a big but, the UK cannot ultimately supress a country against it’s will. And they know it.

  97. twathater says:

    Hope Stuart doesn’t mind Forward As One full email update

    Update on The Scottish People Vs The UK Government on Indyref2

    Dear Backers,

    We’re ready to move to arguments before the court.

    It has been a long hard slug getting to this point, but now we’re ready to go to court.

    At 7pm tonight, the next round of fundraising begins and it’s a biggy.

    We need all of you to assist with getting the word out.

    The new fundraiser can be found here and will be live from 7pm:

    The text for the fundraiser:

    This is the second fundraiser for the case MARTIN JAMES KEATINGS v (FIRST) THE ADVOCATE GENERAL FOR SCOTLAND; (SECOND) THE LORD ADVOCATE; and (THIRD) THE SCOTTISH MINISTERS (Commonly referred to as “The Peoples Action on Section 30” case.)

    The case is seeking a declarator of the Court, that the Scottish Parliament has the power to legislate for the holding of a referendum on whether Scotland should be an independent country, without requiring the consent of the UK government or any further amendment of the Scotland Act 1998 (the “1998 Act”).

    Summary –

    December 2019 : Our solicitor Elaine Motion of Balfour +Manson LLP, commissions instructs Aidan O’Neill QC to provide an opinion on the constitutionality of the Scottish Parliament legislating on a second referendum on Scottish Independence without the consent of Westminster, after yet another rejection of a section 30 order by the Prime Minister – This opinion is available here: Legal Opinion

    January 2020 : We commence fundraising for the case reaching £43,658, of which £40,263.62 is transferred to the solicitors directly by CrowdJustice after deduction of appropriate fees. Transfer Confirmation

    January 30th 2020: The Advocate General of the UK Government is issued with pre-litigation correspondence from our solicitors at Balfour+Manson and the Scottish Government are also copied into that correspondence. : Correspondence

    February 14th 2020: UK Government responds by stating that they do not believe that the Scottish Parliament has the authority to legislate for a second referendum on Scottish Independence without the consent of Westminster (“Section 30 Order”).

    March 20th 2020: A court summons is issued in the name of the Convener of Forward as One, overseeing the litigation. Court Summons

    Since March 2020 we have had to deal with a number of administrative motions. The first was resisting a motion by the Scottish Government to halt proceedings for 3 months. We won this motion – and the 8 week “adjustment period” commenced, being the time in which parties refine their arguments. This ended on 22nd of July.

    During this process, we were subject to another motion by the Scottish Government, which was ultimately dropped in the late stages, after our legal team had already had to invest a hefty amount of energy in working on it.

    The third administrative motion, which was with respect to a protected expenses order – seeking to limit the costs of litigation – has been refused by the court.

    What are we trying to achieve? – To prove that a referendum on Scottish Independence can be legislated for at Holyrood without the consent of Westminster under the law as it currently stands.

    What is the next step in the case? – The next step is preparation for a legal debate. At the moment we are unable to disclose the contents of the submissions by the opposing parties, until we have permission to do so. As always, when this changes, our backers will be the first to know.

    Our next stage is to lodge with the court- the “Open Record” which is, in effect, the respective arguments and submissions of all the parties to the case in one organised document. Its purpose is to allow easy reference to specific matters within those arguments for all parties (including the court). Once this is lodged, a legal debate hearing of 3 days will be scheduled.

    In other words, to steal a quote from a certain politician: This case is now “oven ready” to proceed to oral arguments.

    Why is this fundraiser running:

    As we said previously, we would approach the movement for further fundraising when it became necessary. By way of an estimate. Total costs are projected by the court in the ruling on the protected expenses order to be somewhere in the region of £195,000 in total. We deduct from that total, the sum of £40,000 from the previous fundraiser and we are left with £155,000.

    This is the target we are aiming for.

    To be clear, if we do not reach our target, legal action will have to be discontinued.


    As with the last fundraiser, those donating are reminded of several things. Firstly, you cannot set up a fundraiser on CrowdJustice unless you have a verified legal counsel. CrowdJustice do not allow a fundraiser to launch without confirmation of this.

    We never see the funds, the transfer of the funds is dealt with directly by CrowdJustice and our solicitors at Balfour + Manson LLP. Any unspent funds at the conclusion of the case are subject to Crowdjustice’s refund policy.

    Initial Target & Stretch Target.

    In order for funds to be transferred to the solicitors, it needs to hit the “initial target”. We have set this target to £10,000 (which is way below what we are seeking). The target will then change to £155,000 when the fundraiser hits £10,000

    We have opted to do it this way so we can leave the fundraiser open for longer and so people can continue to donate.

  98. AYRSHIRE ROB says:

    Lets get this done.

    Martin Keatings


  99. Tannadice Boy says:

    I am so fed up of the BritNat argument. Listen to the Stu and his evidence Trolls all around us and MI5 has a controlling influence. No mention of the SG.
    Absolute rubbish. I for one haven’t had an answer to my educatiional solution of this morning. Stopped my car to post. If we don’t care about our bairns then all is lost.

  100. Asklair says:

    Keep going, Police State by New SNP.

  101. Muscleguy says:

    It is now clear that there is one rule for MSM journos and another for us hoi polloi including those who think they are journalists for just publishing stuff online. That’s us telt then.

    it is very clear that the law of contempt in Scotland is now in serious disrepute. A matter Craig & Mark’s lawyers should make hay with except it seems under the law they can’t. The whole thing stinks to high heaven & beyond.

    With GRA still looming, the Hate Crime Bill & now this I am being strongly drawn to the conclusion that Scotland is becoming a place I no longer wish to live in. In my case I have an option being a citizen of New Zealand as well. I am hanging 10 but looking for jobs back there is occupying my thoughts more and more. Especially since nobody seems to want to even interview a science PhD holding male in his 50s here in Scotland. I have skills & experience coming out of my pores to absolutely no avail.

    It’s UC in a Woke paradise where the Unionist media are bullet proof or maybe earning a crust in NZ.

    I appreciate others do not have this option & now escaping to Europe is becoming harder.

  102. Me Bungo Pony says:

    And again I say, this is no longer a pro-independence site.

  103. Papko says:

    “And again I say, this is no longer a pro-independence site.”

    Why should it MPB?
    This is a site for politics in general with a Scottish lilt.

  104. Bob Mack says:


    Neither is it a pro SNP website. Rev makes that very clear in his “about us” page.

  105. Papko says:


    “As the highest levels of the IRA were infiltrated no one should be surprised the reach of the british state in opposing independence.”

    Are you saying an Independent Scotland wont have its own intelligence service? What about Foreign policy and projecting our influence abroad, guarding vital trade routes etc.

    The Scottish Govt may well have sleeper agents working in Westminster ATM, they would be fools not to.

  106. Tannadice Boy says:

    Muscle guy says
    Its age dependent. I can’t escape. But my children and grandchildren can. It’s not the first time migration has happened. Nicola has to go. We have one Scotland.

  107. Andy Ellis says:


    All the LOLZ. This from the arch gradualist assuring us indyref2 will magically happen. The biggest threat to independence is shills like you.

  108. Rm says:

    Surely there must be lawyers and Qcs who want independence and could put up some kind of fight and not walk away from one, it’s looking like we haven’t any powers at all in Scotland and worse no people in a position to even try, the new God – money has everybody under its control.

  109. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “And again I say, this is no longer a pro-independence site.”

    It’s a site that’s just reached the limits of its patience with you.

  110. dakk says:

    Me Bungo Pony says:
    5 August, 2020 at 9:09 pm
    “And again I say, this is no longer a pro-independence site.”

    Yep. Agreed.

    All that remains is the issuance of a wee red white and blue book by the site owner before the holyrood elections.

  111. Tannadice Boy says:

    RM says
    Another BritNat argument. This situation originates in Scotland. When just when are you going to realise that? I give up. Continue with your arguments its nonsense.

  112. Gregor says:


    The State blackmail/coercion factor should not be dismissed and poses an extremely dangerous potential threat to all, for example: Top-level paedophile/child sex trafficker: Jeffrey Epstein (et al ???)…

  113. Tannadice Boy says:

    Stu says
    A late intervention but we can take it. Help!

  114. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    I see Bill Clinton is also heavily implicated as well as Randy Andy in recent release of Ghislaine Maxwell’s court documents @Gregor says at 9:40 pm

    Apparently he owed Epstein “a favour”.

    Don’t forget Epstein paid off all of Randy Andy’s ex wife Fergies debts, so The Queens favourite son probably ‘owed him a favour or two’ as well.

  115. dakk says:

    Small joke there.

    Very small.

  116. Beaker says:

    O/T. Anyone seen the new Spitting Image puppets? Mr Cummings is in for a rough time methinks…

    Back to the topic…

    I need some clarification here. Is contempt of court an offence against the Crown? I thought it would be similar to offences where a witness / defendant is threatened by someone involved with a case, which are bloody serious in their own right.

    (I did read the article about five times, I should stick to spreadsheets…)

  117. McDuff says:

    This is sinister.
    I cannot believe this is happening in Scotland.

  118. Breeks says:

    Lothianlad says:
    5 August, 2020 at 8:17 pm

    ….I’m not claiming to have proof of this, no one possibly can, or the spooks would be doing a terrible job of concealment.

    It’s been a long time since I read it, (can it really be 30 years ago???) and frankly I cannot remember if it actually was Peter Wright’s book Spycatcher, or another book I read about Kim Philby… but a passage which stuck in my mind related to how difficult it was to actually catch a spy.

    Even caught red handed passing over Top Secret documents stolen from a Government safe to their KGB handler meant nothing by itself, because the business of Intelligence often meant horse trading information. To gather good intelligence often meant a trade of information, and the more sensitive the information you had to trade, the more valuable the secrets it would buy. Sometimes the information had to be stolen too, just to give it credibility.

    To establish whether or not someone was disloyal, and a spy for the enemy, required a thorough and meticulous audit of all the secrets given away in exchange for the secrets learned; a bit like a debit and credit ledger.

    If the audit revealed glaring disparities, and the volume or grade of useful information given away didn’t remotely balance with the quality of intelligence gathered, then the operative under investigation was either lousy at his job, … or a spy.

    There was never definitive proof, just balance of probability.

    If you apply that philosophy to what the SNP has actually done to promote Independence these past 5 years versus the open goals which have been squandered, the prominent Indy supporters thrown under buses, the gaffs allowed to fester, and the truly bizarre priorities put further up the agenda than Independence, then as it stands, I don’t believe such an audit would be very kind to the SNP at all, under a Nicola Sturgeon. The million dollar question is whether they’re good people who are sadly just lousy in pursuit of their objectives, or whether there is something more sinister afoot.

    … But for all that, I don’t think you need to be a highly trained Intelligence Officer to know that something really stinks.

  119. Gregor says:

    @Jockanese Wind Talker

    It appears that many Actors and levels are deeply implicated in the Epstein saga. Let’s hope justice is served…

  120. Bob Mack says:

    MBP rides off into the sunset wounded but unbowed. Tis but a scratch.

  121. McDuff says:

    This is sinister.
    I cannot believe this is happening in Scotland under an SNP government. That reply by the police was made with arrogant contempt in the confident knowledge they are untouchable. So who is behind this.
    I am not naturally a believer in conspiracies but there is certainly something going on, and its nasty.

  122. Lothianlad says:


    The million dollar question is whether they’re good people who are sadly just lousy in pursuit of their objectives, or whether there is something more sinister afoot.

    Yes Breeks, it’s a fair question. For what it’s worth, the intelligence services gather sensitive info on promising politicians, even entrapment.

    The stranger the sexual deviance and/or criminal activity the better for them. That’s where the blackmail comes in.

    That’s why so many politicians can be bought, coerced and forced to do the state’s bidding when the state wants them to.

    It’s not all down to collective responsibility, its down to being controlled for fear of exposure.

    Consider how many politicians voted for horrible policies , the Iraq war was a perfect example.

    The disgusting westminster paedophiles ring gives proof of politicians being g compromised without criminal charges being brought as long as they do and say the right thing and vote the right way, according to the state.

    A politicians career can be elevated or crushed depending on who knows the skeletons in the cupboard.

    The SNP will be no different. Many in the party will have been controlled or groomed by the secret service .

    As always Breeks, your post is excellent. We must beware the enemy within!

  123. Lothianlad says:

    Gregor @9.40

    Thanks for posting. Totally agree.

  124. Lothianlad says:


    Are you saying an Independent Scotland wont have its own intelligence service? What about Foreign policy and projecting our influence abroad, guarding vital trade routes etc.

    The Scottish Govt may well have sleeper agents working in Westminster ATM, they would be fools not to.

    I think your missing the point. The SNP are deeply infiltrated at the highest levels by the british secret service in my opinion.

    Of course an Independent Scotland would have security services. It would be a dereliction of duty not to.

    The point is we are NOT independent and the prospects of independence are threatened by the influence of the brit state intelligence services on the SNP Scottish government.

  125. mike cassidy says:

    Some cosy bedtime reading for our resident covid sceptics

    NYC to Set Up Checkpoints to Enforce Quarantine Order

    U.S. daily coronavirus cases rise after dipping below 50,000 for two straight days

  126. Stu, what’s the wee monster icon in your profile photay? Always meant to ask. Looks like totally cool kinetic arserippy 70s mayhem. 🙂

  127. Walter Jones says:

    One of Pete Wishart’s name’s is shown the red card,,,Bungo, non of your arguments made sense.

    You were shown your red card for trying to defend the indefensible.

    Next up, the site Cat.

    C’mon, give us your worst pussy galore.

  128. Mialuci says:

    It allways pains my arse when some know it all declares that most of the population has no idea what’s going on.
    Well, lets put it this way, I do not give a feck if they don’t know their arse from a hole in the ground as long as they can put that little X where it says SNP.
    And as for that stupid idea that the SNP don’t want Independence, what chinless wonder started that nonesense, has to be a unionist taking the urine

  129. Dogbiscuit says:

    Famous 15 thank you for othering me.

  130. Famous15 says:

    No it was the other dog, the one that whistles. You just eat your biscuit theres a good dog.

  131. Walter Jones says:

    Mialuci 11.22pm

    “And as for that stupid idea that the SNP don’t want Independence, what chinless wonder started that nonsense, has to be a unionist taking the urine”

    I think they call her Nicola Sturgeon,,, she’s the chinless wonder you are looking for Mialuci.

  132. Dogbiscuit says:

    Sturgeon locked down Aberdeen because she was pissed off at people enjoying themselves on the beach. She is a dark little dictator.
    People being told to quarantine if someone fired their name in as a recent ‘contact’. This is done anonymously of us a Tyranny after all.
    Even if you get a negative on a test you still have to quarantine.
    The 54’cases’ won’t be sick .Its more political exaggeration. Sturgeon really needs rethink her attitude and behaviour. She is a brute.

  133. J Galt says:


    Such eloquence – that’s us all telt!

  134. Dogbiscuit says:

    Alex Lomax insults a man without giving him a hearing ‘ says it all’ maybe.

  135. Dogbiscuit says:

    The arrogant attitude of many wingers puts people off the idea of Independence.

  136. AberdeenPict says:

    Me Bungo Pony says:
    5 August, 2020 at 9:09 pm

    MBP, yes, this is supposed to be an independence site, but not exclusively in my opinion. In my opinion. you don’t have to be a hardened indy supporter to express your views on this site, lets face it, there are millions of disillusioned English who are not happy with Bojo, but do not have a lot of sensible alternative parties to vote for. Hence, why I think ‘Sensible Dave’, for whom, this I would imagine is the only site where he can express his distain for Scotland wanting to be separate and not happy with his lot.

    One of the main objectives of this site, as part of the push to get independence, and correct me if I am wrong, or anyone else, is to debunk the myths and lies/exaggerations of the MSM and pro-unionist parties, am I wrong?

    The Rev and other contributors have been doing this for years on this site, with backed up links and also quotes and press releases in printed media and websites.

    So, I don’t understand why you find it difficult to understand why so many are disgruntled with the SNP. This party, which I myself and many others have contributed in the past/present with our money, hearts, soul, feet (canvasing), basically almost offering our lives for independence.

    I don’t see why you see us as malcontents, betrayers, Judas, infiltrators and anti-independence supporters, when all we want is our right to criticise our political government. The one that we have paid for, fought for, argued with neighbours, family and friends over, and, believe me, I have lost some friends through supporting the SNP (not now though, financially).

    The SNP were supposed to be that shining beacon through the fog, to guide us into a safe and better harbour.

    One of my heroes when I was a kid was my dad, and he let me and my family down, probably a lot of other people on this site have been through the same I would imagine. But if he can do that, would you really put your heart and soul into the current SNP lot?

    Don’t get me wrong MBP, I am not having a go at you for the sake of it, as I do still think there are some really good SNP members there, but some are scared of sticking their heads above the parapet for fear of speaking out, and others just careerists.

    I may not agree with everything that Kenny MacAskill has posted on this site, but at least he had the guts to put his head above the parapet, and now, by association with this site he will be tared for life for doing so in the eyes of the MSM and the SNP, there is no going back for him, cybernat they will cry!

    Sorry, it has been a long day, but if Kenny can post on here and us supporters have endured the pain this long, don’t you think we have the right to question our masters, not just the ones in Westminster!?

    Anyway, I live in Aberdeen, I am used to slow progress. We got beat by the Huns last weekend, it is pishing with rain almost every day, and my city is away to go into lockdown again for a week or two. Life is good. ?

    On a serious note though, I really do honestly love the banter, humour and culture of most of the contributors on here. I have split my sides with some of the quick fire comebacks.
    Keep it up.

    P.S. it is 00:10, where is CBB? I was expecting a link to paper as long as War and Peace.
    CBB, only joking ? I hope you are well.

  137. Dogbiscuit says:

    Alex Lomax Count Dankula has a video discussing the Hate Bill and he is as horrified by the implications of the Bill as any sane human being who believes in freedom unlike yourself sniping like a bitch on the sidelines. You display the typical blockheaded orthodox thinking of the fool pissed on media propaganda.
    You will find that David Icke is right about this virus.It hasn’t been clinically isolated It’s a waste of time trying to explain to fools like you.
    Lurkers check out Doctor Pamela Poppers YouTube channel for the other side of the narrative the media won’t show you.
    Over a million people marched in Berlin against their oppressive Government. Freedoms loss is a concern for all citizens . The little crypto fascist SNO Antifa types on here can go fuck yourselves. Antifa use exactly the same tactics as the Nazi Brownshirts. Your having the wool pulled over your eyes by Government and Alex Flumox.

  138. Tam the Bam says:

    Dogbuiscuit @ 11-56pm

    “David Icke was right about this virus”

    Final confirmation (if proof were required) that this site is populated by utter …….oh I dont know….think of a word describing the deranged and double it.

    What a sad…sad end to what was what an inspiring guide…ah well.

  139. schrodingers cat says:

    Tam the Bam says:
    Dogbuiscuit @ 11-56pm
    “David Icke was right about this virus”

    sums it up fer me too

  140. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hello? Dogbiscuit? At 11:50 pm, you typed,

    “Sturgeon locked down Aberdeen because she was pissed off at people enjoying themselves on the beach.”

    When the “Gibbering Braille” awards are given out later this year, you will be in with a fair chance.

    Congrats, in advance.

  141. Beaker says:

    @Dogbiscuit says:
    5 August, 2020 at 11:50 pm
    “The 54’cases’ won’t be sick .Its more political exaggeration. Sturgeon really needs rethink her attitude and behaviour. She is a brute.”

    The 54 are being quarantined so they don’t infect more people. Infection spreads at a geometric rate if there are no controls.

    Try to keep up.

  142. Tam the Bam says:


    Are we to assume David Icke is also forming a ‘list’ party?

  143. schrodingers cat says:


    dunno, but im sure icke now posts here regularly

  144. Tam the Bam says:


  145. schrodingers cat says:


    you talked about a wos list party, thing is I cant imagine why anyone would want to be an msp, let alone yourself, i hope at the very least, when the time comes, you will at least add your support to one of the list parties.

    in the immediate after math of indyref1, you came on here and asked the people if we wanted you to continue to run the WOS blog and the people said yes.


    did you imagine that 6 years later you would still be doing so?

    even if we do win our indy, is running this blog something you see yourself doing in the future? with all the grief you’ve suffered, including being hounded by the polis and the lack of justice from our law courts, is it really something you would want to do in the future?

    you used to review computer games for a living, have you any plans to return to this or indeed any other activities in the future?

  146. defo says:

    Aw. I was going to tell him.

    We probably played the same machine in the arcade on Whitburn road.

  147. David F says:

    The Count Dunkula one really isn’t difficult.

    For years the BBC has happily broadcast an episode of Fawlty Towers in which John Cleese goosesteps around around the room pretending to have a Hitler moustache. It has been watched certainly by tens of millions, possibly hundreds of millions of people. Nobody bats an eyelid.

    A random blogger teaches his girlfriend’s “cute” dog to give a Nazi salute, in a video seen by half a dozen people, and finds himself in Court. Get the lynchmob out, Alex!

  148. Thanks, Stu. Cool! Never forget the first time I saw Space Invaders (can hear the barp-barp-barp noise the aliens made as they patiently shuffled across the screen) or, indeed, any of the rest of that late 70s/very early 80s influx of videogame madness from Japan: Centipede, Gorf, Pac-Man (saw it on a tabletop console in Hillbrow in South Africa), Donkey Kong (had a wee two-screen orange console of that one), Defender, Boot Hill, and any other amount of classic games from the time. Then onto Atari times…and Speccy 48K (Clive Sinclair was responsible for colonising and destroying many young minds, not just because of the C5!) and Commodore 64 and Dragon 32…and look at us now. Mental, absolutely mental what the last 40-odd years have brought us technologically, good and bad. Pure entertainment-cum-net-surveillance tsunami.

  149. PhilM says:

    I’m not on Twitter, so I can’t respond to the Forward As One discussion, but as it has cropped up above…well here goes…
    From what was said above and on the Crowd Justice website, there appears to be a bit of confusion. After the adjustment period in a case, you lodge the Closed Record not the Open Record. Why is this distinction important? Perhaps in the grand scheme of things it isn’t, but this is such a basic error in understanding that it makes me wonder if Martin Keatings knows precisely what’s going on in his own case. His legal team obviously will know, but for people who will be parting with money, perhaps they need a better informed person to give them updates…
    If this sounds like criticism, please do not be mistaken by my intention, it IS criticism.

  150. Robert Louis says:

    Breeks at 1003pm,

    Quote “… But for all that, I don’t think you need to be a highly trained Intelligence Officer to know that something really stinks.”

    An excellent post. I do not doubt for one second that their are some high up who are now being controlled by their ‘handlers’. Some never were on ‘our’ side.

    The buck stops with Nicola Sturgeon. If she intervened to reverse the gerrymandering of the Edinburgh consituency, then it may give some reassurance, but honestly, given NS is actually on the NEC, I have no doubt she was behind it (or at least knew it would be done).

    So, yes, it stinks, it stinks to high heaven.

  151. Robert Louis says:

    Meanwhile, ignoring the concern trolls, Please, if you can, donate to this case. It is well structured and being brought forward by a highly competent, extremely experienced legal team.

    This WILL move the goal posts in our favour.

    Well worth supporting.

  152. Liz says:

    I’m increasingly having to post on here to let off steam.
    Even people I follow and agree with on many things can’t see passed NS dealings with Covid.

    I too think she’s a control freak becoming increasingly difficult tataorial.
    Locking down Aberdeen is shocking.

    The original lockdown was so the NHS could prepare itself to deal with cases. It is now prepared. There was no need to lock down the whole city.

    I’ve been thinking for a while that she has a strong Calvinist streak, she wants to control people’s leisure time.
    I never thought my own gov would scare me but under her stewardship, they do

    I wish she would go but still too many hang onto her every word.

  153. ahundredthidiot says:

    Maybe people should be considering how much money the UK makes in a year (GDP) – around £2.2 trillion.

    How much of that GDP has not been made this year? – I would suggest a conservative figure of around 30% (likely to be higher).

    Now, how much has been ‘spent’ on paying people to stay at home while losing out on this National income? – I for one believe the Chancellor is fiddling his figures, £350 billion seems very low to pay everyone 80% wages (100% if public sector).

    Now, it’s August, the income for the remainder of the year is not guaranteed and the Government is ‘feeding people’ through it’s eat out scheme. If ever there was a red flag, this is it.

    All this for a Country that was £1.9 trillion in debt before COVID.

    And now the lockdowns are starting again – hardly anyone is kicking back on their effectiveness, so it’s a done deal.

    Clearly, this is either financial recklessness on an unimaginable scale – or what we are bearing witness to has nothing to do with a virus – stepping back to assess the big picture, I do not believe this is a Plan for dealing with a pandemic.

    It looks like a Plan for something else – where money, the economy and even politics, are all irrelevant.

  154. Graeme says:

    I agree with you Liz for the most part the problem she’s damned if she does and damned if she doesn’t, it’s not an easy call and I’m glad i’m not the one having to make these decisions, also this is the sort of thing she’s good at so we have to trust her judgement whether we like it or not.

    Nicola will not win our independence, that’s not what she’s good at but in the meantime at least her handling of the COVID crisis is winning us support, so we should at least be thankful for that, hopefully soon she’ll be gone and we can elect a leader who can lead the way

  155. McDuff says:

    dakk 9.32pm

    “ this is no longer a pro independence site“

    Then what are you doing on here relentlessly posting.
    You are a hypocrite of you don’t go away.

  156. Breeks says:

    Graeme says:
    6 August, 2020 at 8:14 am

    …Nicola will not win our independence, that’s not what she’s good at but in the meantime at least her handling of the COVID…

    If Nicola was struggling to devise a coherent strategy for Independence, fair do’s, it’s not a hanging offence and it’s a very complex issue, but she should do the responsible management thing, focus on COVID if that’s where she’s strong, and delegate Independence to somebody else, … a relentless, Cyberdyne Systems Terminator who will not stop.

    Covid would give her the perfect opportunity to stay FM, but actually put someone more capable in charge of getting Independence delivered. But as most of us can now see, Nicola’s initative, and her capacity to exploit opportunity are both dismal. Her selection of office bearers looks pretty ropey too.

    It’s very poor management to let essential matters slide on the back burner because you personally lack the capacity to deal with two pressing political matters at the same time.

    I thought it was telling that when pressed about a List Party and the Alex Salmond smearing conspiracy, it was dismissed as nonsense she couldn’t get her head around. A decent Interviewer would have smelled blood on hearing that…

  157. Rm says:

    That’s what we need a separate independence Attack team, why can’t the SNP government not handle the covid crisis and go for ending the union at the same time, there’s plenty of them, headed by Joanna Cherry to keep things stable, Angus MacNeil and some younger men and women who have a bit of fight in them, the support from everyone if they did this would grow.

  158. Terry callachan says:

    Look folks , Covid19 is real
    It kills people
    Makes many others very sick
    Leaves many with long lasting damage to their lungs kidneys liver

    For the reasons stated above lockdown has to be considered

    What then makes lockdown essential when there is an outbreak as has been seen in the Aberdeen area

    Is that you can have covid19 for 5 to as much as 14 days before you actually start to wonder if you’ve got it

    By then you have unknowingly passed it on to other people possible many other people who then do the same

    If you cannot see the sense of lockdown in these circumstances there is something wrong with your sensibilities

    Young people are much less at risk of getting really ill if they get covid19 but they will pass it on to other unsuspecting people just as easily and those unsuspecting people might die from it

    People who are more at risk of dying from covid19 are obviously going to be much much more vigilante than people who are not
    You won’t find very many pubs and clubs where a majority of the customers in it are over 65 sure you might find some but the vast majority are frequented by younger people now that’s a clue as to why we are seeing sporadic outbreaks not just in Scotland but elsewhere too

    It’s important we all try to protect the safety of our older people our disabled people all the people at greater risk of dying from covid19

    It’s gone on a long time this restriction in our lives and it’s totally understandable that young fit healthy people are really fed up of the restrictions placed on them when there is very little chance of them dying or getting seriously ill but that’s NOT the point here

    The point is that those same people even they don’t get really sick with covid19 they will pass it on to other people who will get really sick or even die

    This is why Nicola Sturgeon has reintroduced lockdown in places that have been careless

    So all you people complaining about lockdown in Aberdeen ? ….give yourselves a shake

    Come on get a grip ,you have a duty to protect other people even if you personally feel you are not at risk , forgoing your jaunt to the beach in Aberdeen is a small sacrifice

  159. Polly says:

    Of course the police can be directed in what to do, of which we’ve seen plenty of proof. The turning up outside anyone’s house or phoning them is intimidatory. What I understand happened to Wings when complaints were made was way overstepping the mark. I understand they are duty bound to investigate but the fact they often go too far is the problem. How much leeway are they supposed to be allowed and how much judicial or political interference is going on behind the scenes is always the worry. Not ever being a trusting sort I’ve always trusted them least as being the power of the state.

  160. mike cassidy says:

    Nations tighten mask rules, lockdowns as Covid-19 deaths approach 700,000

  161. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Liz (7.39) –

    Hear hear.

    It’s so difficult to even raise this subject now without being attacked on two fronts:

    1. Exposing oneself as a ‘("Tractor" - Ed)’ who is undermining the cause by criticising ‘the only credible vehicle’ etc (the default position of WGD and his fans)

    2. Bolstering conspiracy theories relating to the bug’s seriousness.

    Many of us have all-but ceased commenting on anything even vaguely bug-related because it’s just not worth the grief, but in doing so we’re actually helping NS avoid the scrutiny she deserves.

    The conflation of 1 & 2 makes it well-nigh impossible to raise a peep about NS without someone angrily defending her and/or the SG position of prioritising the bug over indy, and that results in an inevitable Catch-22 which just happens to suit the FM.

    What might be helpful is detailed discourse analysis focusing on the FM’s covid ‘briefings’. (Plenty of material to analyse!) My gut feeling is that it would reveal personality traits (in the FM) which have been alluded to by many. Part of the reason I cannot listen to them for very long is because of the FM’s sledgehammer use of the first-person: ‘I understand’, ‘I won’t hesitate’, ‘I really really believe’, ‘I really don’t want to be standing here’ etc etc ad nauseum. One has to wonder if she’s even aware that she’s doing it, or at least to what extent.

    What it all reminds me of is Blair, in the post-Iraq period, when he was still in power but knew his credibility was shot and inquiries were going to be bad, bad and more bad. ‘I had to make that decision’ was his last Get Out Of Jail card and he’s been playing it ever since.

    Perhaps I’m just an auld tinfoil-hat-wearing cynic right enough, but it looks to me like NS is carefully laying the foundations for such a case i.e. her defence in years to come.

  162. dakk says:

    “Then what are you doing on here relentlessly posting”

    The opposite of what you are trying to do.

  163. jfngw says:

    @Tam the Bam 12:25am

    Ickenologists is what I call them, just need a dictionary definition now.

    The Scientologists had better watch out with this new kid on the block after their thrown.

  164. Terry callachan says:

    SNP like them or not , like their policies or not , like their MP,s or not like Nicola Sturgeon or not

    They are the only party that will get Scottish independence
    Nobody else comes close

    If we abandon the SNP it will be Ten to twenty years before there is another party with strong enough support and good enough administration to go for Scottish independence

    Be careful what you wish for

    Be aware that we are in a propaganda war with England’s Westminster they are grappling to keep control of Scotland as a country

    Everywhere there are kiddy on Scottish independence supporters who really have only one intention and that is to distract and upset you and turn you against your fellow Scottish independence supporters they will also turn you against the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon and any other strongholds of Scottish independence

    Be smart don’t get caught up in their tangle of deceit

    Until we have secured Scottish independence there really is no other issue that we should be falling out about
    Every other issue that comes up is small fry compared to Scottish independence because once we have secured Scottish independence we will as a nation be able to decide everything for ourselves without having to ask westminster or people like Boris Johnston for permission

    We won’t have to deal with all our newspapers acting on behalf of another country-england
    We won’t have to deal with all out tv channels acting on behalf of another country-england

    If we stick to the basics of voting SNP we will have Scottish independence soon

    Don’t throw away the chance by letting persuasive strangers online who have what appear to be good arguments for abandoning Scottish independence in favour of other matters which will still be in the control of Westminster at the end of the day because as you have seen often in recent years westminster control everything in Scotland , even devolution , even the police and the courts.

    Get smart
    Reject everything that tries to persuade you to abandon Scottish independence and voting SNP

  165. ahundredthidiot says:


    you’ve made your mind up and so have others to the contrary, no point preaching anymore – either way.

    Opinions will change over time – probably as the impact on the economy bites.

    Many will say the initial lockdown was correct as people were dying, but that is no longer the case, herd immunity may be taking hold.

    You do have to wrestle with the facts though – this may meet the definition of a pandemic, but less than 2500 deaths over four months is hardly the stuff of the black plague or Spanish Flu now, is it? At some point we need to get back to normal – it is ‘when’ that point is reached which should be the basis of debate and it isn’t.

    And for anyone who takes the ‘if it saves even one life’ argument, I would suggest they never get behind the wheel of a car again – frankly, it’s a childs argument.

  166. Polly says:

    Re question of wings long term future

    I personally hope Stuart continues at least for a while after independence. The current SNP failures in the road they’re going shows they might mess up the transition to full independence (something I didn’t think possible not so long ago) and we need critical friends to point that out and help guide the way. We obviously need his voice loud and clear as we still fight for independence but we need him for at least a bit after that too. We keep saying we need new media and his would be one of very few voices on any side I would trust. I would ideally like newspapers we could buy showing a range of opinion in an independent Scotland and his place in a newspaper environment like that would be what I’d want long term too.

  167. Tony O'Neill says:

    I am no fan of NS,but she’s right to lockdown Aberdeen. AS for awe you out there who think covid is a hoax.Tell that tae it’s victims,alive and deed!.Fuckin roasters the lot o yeah!!.

  168. jfngw says:

    @Ian Brotherhood

    To quote Dennis Potter (paraphrase as I can’t remember his exact wording) ‘good deeds sometimes result in bad outcomes and bad deeds sometimes result in good outcomes’. If we could pick the deeds that always result in perfection life would be so much easier.

  169. ahundredthidiot says:

    Mike Cassidy – your minds made up, fair enough.

    your source though (last time I checked to be fair) has Scottish covid deaths at around 4800, when it is actually 2491, so maybe your 700,000 figure deserves some scrutiny.

    The time to be banging on about face-masks was Jan/Feb/March, not July/August. Perhaps that horse has bolted. It wasn’t pushed as a policy issue back then because politicians couldn’t deliver – but now they can because they have shit-loads of the stuff, ergo.

  170. Rm says:

    The SNP have to start letting everyone who’s voted for them perhaps all their lives, exactly what’s happening regarding independence, and why they didn’t fight against brexit, something’s not right you can’t blame SNP voters starting to think differently, no information no encouragement, folk need to know what’s the plan, if there is one.

  171. Bob Mack says:

    @Terry Callachan,

    You must actually think Wingers are the dumbest people on the face of the planet. We are not.

    Our problem is not with the SNP as a party of indeed with many members of that party. I was one myself. Our problem is with the chaos within the party and the top management who have allowed that chaos to grow and fester

    The party has been distracted from, if not directly avoiding the topic of Independence and you have to ask yourself why?

    They know everything we know about the possible interference from Boris Johnson in Scotland’s devolved responsibilities,
    as well as al! The other permutations posted on Wings about how Boris could feasibly close Holyrood.

    The position of the SNP just now appears stagnant. No ideas.No fight. No interest in their members are at each others throats over several issues.

    It is adrift on a sea of seeking apathy. Covid is important, but so is my freedom from what is basically English rule.

  172. Ottomanboi says:

    Terry callachan 09:26
    SARS CoV-2 virus is possibly fatal only to those whose immune systems are otherwise deficient or present other, usually untreated, medical conditions. General health, both physical and mental, plays a major part in prognosis.
    You can check this out in the virology literature.
    Be wary of pontificating government propaganda on this complex matter.

  173. kapelmeister says:

    Terry Callahan@9:44

    You say that it would be ten or twenty years before a new independence party was strong enough. Why?

    The founding of the SNP in 1934 took place in a time when support for independence was fairly meagre. The new party had to patiently build up support over decades.

    In complete contrast, the founding of a new party now would be taking place in the dual context of huge support for independence, as well as widespread disaffection among indy supporters for the SNP leadership.

    A new party properly focussed on the goal of independence would either quickly supplant the SNP as the main indy party or else it would attain enough electoral support to bring the SNP back to its senses and into a sane post-Sturgeon era.

    As things are, the SNP might arguably still be a vehicle for independence, but it’s like a car without wheels, up on bricks, and minus an engine.

  174. Michael Laing says:

    @Terry callachan at 9.44am: You are blind to reality. It’s become clear that, under its present leadership, the SNP doesn’t want independence. It is embarrassed to even mention the word, and has done nothing over the past six years to bring it about. Instead, it has descended into corruption, in-fighting and imposing absurd policies that are not supported by the majority of the public. That being the case, what’s the point in voting for them?

    When the SNP actually takes steps to bring about our independence, I will be more than happy to rejoin the party and give them my vote.

  175. AYRSHIRE ROB says:

    Funny how history repeats..None of these auld boys whinged like some in here.
    Wonder what wee bug was going around then,that killed millions?Just like covid will if people don’t waken up!

  176. ahundredthidiot says:

    ayrshire rob

    the next pandemic might kill millions, yes, as history repeats, but the chances of that pandemic being COVID-19 are getting slimmer by the day.

    Evidence does not appear to be on your side. SAGE, by the day, are being made to look more and more alarmist in their modelling data (no wonder the David Ickes of the world are having a field day – their predictions were wild, to put it mildly – we were supposed to have 70,000 dead in Scotland alone over just a few months – did’nae happen).

    And WHO is back tracking big time (although, to be fair to WHO, they did say mid March that its assessment was low impact).

    What is the point in having a mind if you canny change it!

  177. stuart mctavish says:

    @Terry @9:26

    You might think so but in recognition of the appalling prejudice its treatment has generated it is surely healthy to be skeptical (and not a little concerned by the perception that all politicians are reading from the same colouring book on the matter).

    As of yesterday there had been no confirmed death from covid for 20 days despite 344 new cases having been confirmed over the same period

    That suggest it takes at least 20 days for someone to die from it.

    During the 20 days before the last confirmed covid death an additional 177 new cases had been confirmed.

    Accordingly the upper bound for the hospitalised mortality rate (at this time of year) must be in the order 0,2% (1/521) which is probably slightly less than that for flu, and significantly less than it must be for welfare, economic or any other type of aggressive political sanction(s)

    In view of the foregoing, and on the basis that there is no such thing as a stupid question, my first questions to the lockdown police might be along the lines of how do they calculate mortality rate, what is it for this ‘disease’ and what must it be in order to vindicate house arrest of potential suspects.

  178. Davie Oga says:

    Ian Brotherhood

    The Blair comparison is spot on. Labour were still popular and winning elections long after Iraq. Many Blair apologists among the faithful as well.

    She has also picked up this habit of prefacing her replies to questions with “honestly”.


    “Honestly, I am not trying to dodge your questions, but I have been fully immersed in dealing with the virus.”

    Liars often overemphasize their truthfulness by adding words or phrases to a statement that are meant to make them sound more convincing. Overemphasizing truthfulness is a sure sign of dishonesty.

    That Wark interview, when she was asked about the inquiry, was the final straw for me. There was something not right about her there.

    The “St. Nicola” show may a few episodes left, but for me, she’s going through the motions, and needs to go if she is not going to further damage the chance of independence.

    The day will come when the gap between SNP polling and independence polling grows substantially. Maybe when her approval ratings drop like a stone and independence is still the majority, people will wake up to the fact that Nicola Sturgeon had no real intention of liberating Scotland when she was First Minister.

  179. jfngw says:


    What’s your solution then, concentrate all the weak and disabled in a designated area, keep them away from the those healthy productive citizens?

    Because it is impossiblee to protect them in the general population by just locking them down forever. I would have thought the results across many countries would suggest it is impossible to keep any virus out of an institution using these methods.

    Without a vaccine there is only two options, elimination or isolation of the vulnerable (possibly for years).

  180. mike cassidy says:

    There’s always talk on here about what to believe or be sceptical about ….


    Without doing any checking

    Do you think this is real


    Without checking

    I think we’re at the point where it could be real.

  181. L. Campbell says:

    “…Conduct amounting to contempt of court requires to be wilful and to show lack of respect for or defiance of the court. Integral to the offence of contempt is an intention to challenge or affront the authority of the court or to defy its orders. Unintentional or accidental conduct would not amount to contempt. Where the conduct relates to a failure to obey or obtemper a court order, to avoid a finding of contempt there must be a satisfactory explanation and excuse: Beggs v Scottish Ministers [2005] CSIH 25…” The Law Society of Scotland Journal, April 2015, Jackie McRae.

    Albeit that Contempt of Court is not a criminal offence in Scotland, it is prosecuted as such. Having read most, if not all, of the offending articles, and certainly Craig Murray’s and Dani Garavelli’s, I find it difficult to see how either of these two or anyone else could actually be prosecuted for contempt. Each article either stated that there would be no identification, even accidentally, or could not have been written without giving clues to those in the know.

    That is the point, surely, that there was no intention, no mens rea, as it would be in criminal law? It is extremely difficult to write about a case and not run the risk of identifying people in a jigsaw fashion. I would think that none of the journalists, or Messrs Murray and Hirst, actually set out to identify the women. For those in the Holyrood/media bubble, perhaps identification would have been worked out, but, for the ordinary person in the street, he or she would not have a clue.

    I would hope that the case against Messrs Murray and Hirst will be dropped because it might well be lost by the prosecution, as the Salmond case itself was, on a deficiency/weakness of evidence, in their case, that any intention to identify was absent.

  182. jfngw says:

    @Davie Oga

    All political leaders end in failure, in fact NS has been FM about the average for leaders in the UK, only Blair and Thatcher lasted more than seven years, and their fall was even harder.

    We need to remember that OBFA and Named Person was progressing through the time of the AS stewardship, plus we lost a referendum. Nobody has a perfect record when it is analysed in depth.

  183. kapelmeister says:


    OBFA was fairly popular, unlike Sturgeon’s GRA lunacy and Hate Crime craziness.

    As for indyrefs, Salmond got us one. Sturgeon sweats with embarrassment nowadays if she has to even discuss independence.

  184. jfngw says:


    I’m not defending NS, I’m pointing out there seems to be many that only see Salmond through rose tinted spectacles. He had his faults, he was a political gambler, he lost the independence gamble.

  185. Colin Alexander says:

    Ian Brotherhood

    You’re brave, criticising the Wee Ginger Dug blog.

    I made the mildest of comment: “Bites the hand of Project Fear and licks the hand of the SNP” and got pelters for that.

  186. dakk says:

    Haven’t had time to read it all yet, but a cautionary tale which may help to explain some of the apparent ‘overeaction’ to Covid.

  187. willie says:

    At a time when the Westminster Government are setting up in Scotland and feverishly progressing Brexit exit legislation which will undermine utterly the Scottish Parliament, our First Minister has declared that her focus is on Covid.

    That she has no fight for independence or indeed much else save for letting the Crown Office and the Police spend millions pursuing people like Alex Salmond, Craig Murray and Mark Hirst, the recent Scottish Exam results further reinforce a First Minister gravely over stretched, and under focussed.

    Iain Lawson is a blog today promotes the idea of splitting the dual responsibilities of being the government’s First Minister and leader of the party.

    It is well worth a read.

    And in the meantime, for all those pupils marked down in their exam results in the bottom social classes to ” maintain credibility ” I think the point about the FM having her eye off the ball will be well understood.

  188. Davie Oga says:


    The Dug comes across as a nice guy, who wants everyone to be nice, while Nicola goes about nicely asking if we can independent.

    IMO independence will only come about when
    Scotland has a ruthless, any and all means, bastard in charge. Our opponent is the British state. History teaches that being reasonable will get you nothing.

    Would a Scottish bastard please step to the fore?

  189. MaggieC says:

    An excellent column from Kenny McAskill in the Scotsman , “ Snp members quitting over NEC ruling should stay and fight “

    And he’s quite right in my opinion , there’s no point in leaving the party as it’s up to the members to reclaim the party and get it back on the right road to fighting for Independence .

  190. Dan says:

    This is all fine and just the usual antics that have become the norm in the UK.

    How long can Scotland be kept out of this developing situation regarding our data and health.

  191. SOG says:

    Maggie C at 1234…

    I’m partly persuaded, having left over the Alex S court cases and the entryists’ actions. I wasn’t going to pay towards those.

    I suspect a co-ordinated return might be far more effective, after some positive event. I wonder what others might think.

  192. Bob Mack says:

    @Maggie C,

    I will not rejoin until the top leadership are cleared out.
    Let us remember that they knew what was going on and utterly failed to stop it. They are still failing in spite of members leaving the to those issues.That is gross negligence in any organisation.

    Yes let’s all resign up, but we still have the same leadership and I notice Kenny tried to deflect all responsibility onto the NEC. They are partially to blame, but so is the Chief Exec and leader, who Kenny avoids mentioning.

  193. Beaker says:

    Re Space Invaders, I was always better at Galaxian (still good on the rare occasions I find one).

    But nothing, nothing beats Asteroids for retro gaming.

  194. dakk says:

    Davy Oga

    “Would a Scottish bastard please step to the fore?”

    True. I know plenty including on here.

    Problem is they’re all Unionists.

  195. jfngw says:

    If you are not the member of a party then you have no say in its direction, your only power is to not vote for them. It’s a simple choice join a party and try and change its direction, vote for another party or abstain.

    WGD and James Kelly are clearly pro SNP sites, they are their own sites and free to have whatever political position they want. If you don’t like their point of view don’t visit the site, why should they change their position to massage other peoples egos. And no I don’t agree with everything they say but I respect their opinion as being honestly held.

  196. John H. says:

    Ian Brotherhood 9.40am.

    I remember hearing a Nicola Sturgeon radio interview some years ago. Sorry I don’t have a link. She stated then words to the effect that “I don’t ever want to live through another day like 19th September 2014”. I thought then that what she meant was that she would make damn sure that we succeeded next time

    Now I think that what I saw then as determination to win was in fact a fear of losing. She can’t take us any further, she just can’t. I am clinging to the faint hope that the SNP have some super duper plan that will save us from the impending disaster which is going to befall us next year. But it is a small and dwindling hope. I pray I am wrong.

  197. kapelmeister says:


    Correct me if I’m wrong, but you appear to be saying that people who are not SNP members have no right to voice their dissatisfaction with that party. All such people can do is silently withhold their vote at election time. That would be a strange and singular view of democratic politics.

  198. Republicofscotland says:

    “jfngw says:
    6 August, 2020 at 1:19 pm

    If you are not the member of a party then you have no say in its direction,”

    That simply isn’t true, the SNP are in government and by that very fact, their policy making decisions affects all people in Scotland whether they’re a member or not.

    “WGD and James Kelly are clearly pro SNP sites, they are their own sites and free to have whatever political position they want. If you don’t like their point of view don’t visit the site”

    I’ve commented on WGDs site, giving my opinion on what’s I thought is wrong with the SNPs GRA bill, Self-ID, the Hate Crime bill and the machinations surrounding the Alex Salmond fit up. My comments didn’t even make it past moderation.

    This doesn’t bode well for the WGDs site, as Chomsky once said.

    If you’re in favour of freedom of speech that means in favour of freedom of speech, precisely for the views you despise, otherwise you’re not in favour of freedom of speech.

    I’d say this site has allowed more points of view even though the blog owner might disagree with them, that the WGDs site.

  199. Breeks says:


    Well said Chris Packham.

    … but I think you’ll grow old and grey waiting for Nicola Sturgeon to do anything.

    Better have a chat with John Swinney, Pete Wishart or Fergus Ewing… they’re best chums with the shootin’ fishin’ and poisonin’ brigade…

  200. Republicofscotland says:

    John.H@ 1.27pm.

    John I think it was on the 20th of August last year that Nicola Sturgeon said in an interview that she is obsessed with keeping the SNP in power, there’s quite a few links to that remark if you care to look.

  201. Dan says:

    RE. Exam Results
    Meh, deal with it. Life throws curve balls all the time and the concept that you can sail through your existence with no negatives is delusional.
    I was utterly shite at school in the academic studies but was shit hot at sport and practical stuff.
    I just couldn’t apply myself in classes with boring numbers and literature as it seemed so irrelevant in my life.
    But that was when I was younger and once I developed interests that required the use of numbers and language I enthusiastically applied myself to learn what was required.

    EG: Calculating bespoke individual gear ratios for a given rpm range and tyre circumference for specific corner and straight speeds on different race circuits, and engine building formulae to optimise performance by working out how much to have machined off surfaces for static and dynamic compression ratios, degreeing / phasing in camshafts, piston speed & conrod angle variations, fuel ratio and ignition timing advance curves suddenly all required knowledge to carry out such tasks, and it was a breeze to learn because it actually meant something to me now.

    As a practical individual I’ve long been highly skeptical of the apparent focus on academic achievement.
    No doubt there is a need for it in various areas as our society develops, but there is also a need to get a lot of our younger people skilled up in more practical vocations as it is essential that our existing infrastructure is serviced and maintained through the passage of time.
    It is a fundamental requirement that any sustainable society requires a balance of skills and trades to function or something will start to degrade.
    Some work just can’t be done on a laptop whilst sitting on yer arse, or by talking. It actually requires folk to get down and dirty.
    Proper apprenticeships used to offer a route and career for the more practically minded folk, but there seems to be a void now with a lot of younger folk being raised in a way that doesn’t allow them to get their hands dirty playing and building physical stuff in their early formative years, so they seem to struggle in adapting to working life.

    The almost aloof assumption or arrogance that someone else will do that sort of work because it is beneath them is all to common imo.
    My mate’s garage offers a wonderful insight into our society where you will see “smart” people rock up in cars that haven’t been serviced in years, or with brakes seized, or tyres worn down to the fuckin’ wire. Their vehicles are an accident waiting to happen because they can’t or won’t even carry out the most basic of vehicle checks.

    Would I put my trust in these so called “smart” folk? Nae fuckin’ chance!
    It sort of ties in with all this legal stuff the Rev is chasing answers from, where the apparent reality these organisations exist within is a wholly different world from where the rest of us exist.

  202. Bob Mack says:

    I would say the SN P are relying on more people voting for them than just their current membership. Those votes own no al!engiance to the SN P and can change if the party is pressing unpopular policy on their lives.

  203. Republicofscotland says:

    “Every other issue that comes up is small fry compared to Scottish independence ”

    Terence Callachan, don’t you think you should standing outside Bute house shouting this at Nicola Sturgeon. Afterall its not us who are ducking the issue.

  204. Stuart MacKay says:


    Willful inaction by the Scottish Government on any activity where there are mountains of evidence that it involves rampant and blatant criminality is never off-topic.

    In in-glorious 12th is rapidly approaching and you can be sure that gamekeepers up and down the country will be “taking measures” to ensure that birds of prey or any other living animal won’t disrupt all that lovely money from flowing into their employers banks accounts.

  205. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @John H. (1.27) –

    Yes, I do remember her saying that.

    I had a look for the source but can’t find it. I did find this though:

    ‘My job and the job of my party is to continue to win support for independence, build that case and persuade a clear majority of people in Scotland that it is the right way forward for the country.’

    That, of course, was pre-bug (Jan 31st this year) and it’s surely as close to a straightforward statement as anyone could reasonably expect.

    So why are we all at each other’s throats all the time?

    That’s why I posted the link to this Irish Times editorial from last week:

    That analysis should’ve received a lot more attention from us, and the folk (some of whom remain friends, let’s not forget) who prefer to comment on WGD or SGP or wherever else, because hard-headed, informed and truly objective analysis is so hard to come by. Even if a Scottish newspaper published something similar, it would be dismissed instantly by one or other faction as pro/anti-NS propaganda based on nothing more than the messenger’s identity.

  206. Republicofscotland says:

    Stuart Mackay.

    Four beautiful Hen Harrier chicks have successfully fledged in a nest in Angus Glens, no doubt along with other fabulous raptors that soar in the skies of Scotland they’ll be shot or poisoned by over zealous gamekeepers on the orders of the estate owners, whom the SNP are to afraid of (via the courts and their wealth) to actually do anything meaningful to protect birds likes these.

    Its an absolute disgrace if you ask me.

  207. iain mhor says:

    I don’t have much frame of reference for Nicola – I don’t watch any cooncil telly and I think the only Corona brief I’ve ever seen, was a J.Godley spoof someone sent me – but I did bizarrely, catch Jackson Carlaw’s last stand at FMQ’s on YT – My initial reaction was ‘You’re not well hen’.

    I reckoned she is in a breakdown, I have seen them, So, I’ve been waiting on her gardening leave recently. It would explain the rudderless ship and internicine strife.
    I hope the strawberries are all accounted for at Bute House.

    It may seem a bit odd, that I’ve barely any notion of what any of our politicians personalities are. I don’t see much of them, I’m not required to. They work in the cooncil, doing a job – so long as they are doing the job, I don’t need to know much about them – no cult of personality.

    So, much like the weans ye don’t see often; ‘oh ye’ve fair grown’, so with the occasional glimpses of politicians – ‘You’re no well hen’

    I think @Old Pete asked recently who was the favoured replacement. I don’t have one ‘The one showing the appetite to deliver their brief” probably – no-one I’ve heard of lately.
    I believe John Swinney is deputy – As for contenders, well that’s a closed family tree from Finance, Transport, Local Government – pick one. I don’t much care, so long as the job is done.

    One job, is to explain the failure of their brief to keep Scotland in the EU – they failed at that, but haven’t explained why.
    The same powers to deliver that brief, are required to deliver Independence. So, ‘Could not, or Will not? Either way, it’s unlikely that they will deliver independence – adequate government probably, Independence no.

  208. ‘jfngw says:
    6 August, 2020 at 1:19 pm

    If you are not the member of a party then you have no say in its direction, your only power is to not vote for them.’

    Nonsense. What if you are not an actual member of a party, but have voted for them multiple times, as I have with the SNP? So you are not allowed a say on what the party you voted for has done with your vote, especially if it is capsizing the only reason you ever voted for them in the first place, i.e. independence? Shaking my head.

  209. ‘Ian Brotherhood says:

    Part of the reason I cannot listen to them for very long is because of the FM’s sledgehammer use of the first-person: ‘I understand’, ‘I won’t hesitate’, ‘I really really believe’, ‘I really don’t want to be standing here’ etc etc ad nauseum. One has to wonder if she’s even aware that she’s doing it, or at least to what extent.’

    To me, it really does reveal a monstrously huge ego, a woman who sees herself as the living embodiment of Scotland, and a pure, selfie-serving pathological narcissist. I was fascinatingly appalled when, during the case of the protesters at the border, she said “They don’t speak for me.”

    Never mind that they were raising valid concerns, they didn’t speak for ME ME ME ME ME, not “They don’t speak for Scotland” or “They don’t speak for the majority of Scots.” What it revealed about her solipsistic, selfie-driven worldview was, to my mind, very revealing – and very disturbing along with it. That selfishness has never historically been a lauded Scottish personality or sociological trait. But then again, these days we live in an age when every arsehole with a phone is a self-identified superhero supermodel, so I guess it goes with the modern media territory and personality is some people, to a degree. I wonder how many dates the wee teenage political prodigy got in high school that she needs all this constant egostroker validation of her insurmountable worldview. Risible.

  210. bipod says:


    I have not read through all of it either but in the second paragraph she states that she has cervical stenosis (which she was diagnosed with last fall before covid?) and it is quite a serious condition going by her description. Even with that covid didn’t kill her. My point being for the overwhelming majority of people (without serious underlying conditions) covid is not a serious illness that you should worry about it. The statistics show as much.

  211. ‘Beaker says:
    6 August, 2020 at 1:00 pm
    Re Space Invaders, I was always better at Galaxian (still good on the rare occasions I find one).

    But nothing, nothing beats Asteroids for retro gaming.’

    Galaxians I totally loved. Asteroids was good, too, great fun. Not played it in many years. Real skill involved in that one, to stop your craft just zipping instantly across the screen with one tiny retro rockets boost and smashing into a chunky white asteroid outline. 🙂

  212. John H. says:

    Ian Brotherhood 2.24pm.

    Thanks Ian for the reply and the links. It’s quite confusing, because she seemed like someone who is determined to go for it in that interview. Yet all we hear about are insinuations over her behaviour re Alex Salmond, the clique who have taken over the party etc. There seems to be no clear guidance from her as far as independence is concerned. Never a mention of a campaign. Our leader needs to be seen to lead.

    It’s time she showed us clearly where we are going.

  213. crazycat says:

    @ Republicofscotland at 2.00

    It’s not just “wrong” opinions that are moderated; having not read WGD for quite a while, I recently tried to ask another poster a question about a statement he/she had made, which I thought was untrue.

    I didn’t say that, though – I asked where the information had come from since I’d never heard it before, which should surely have been uncontroversial.

    My post went into moderation, which was fair enough since I’d forgotten what name I’d used there in the past, and had chosen a new one.

    But it never emerged from moderation. At that point, I realized something had gone far wrong with the site, which never behaved like that in the past. I still don’t understand why my post could not have been allowed to appear; I might even have learned something useful from any answer to it!

  214. Republicofscotland says:

    Dan@ 2.51pm.

    Interesting story in the link, the main point being that will Holyrood still be a viable parliament after the Tory power grab, and Sturgeon should be using the next Holyrood elections if there’s a pro-independence majority as a catalyst for declaring independence next year, for Holyrood’s and Scotland’s powers will be greatly if she doesn’t.

  215. Republicofscotland says:

    “I still don’t understand why my post could not have been allowed to appear; I might even have learned something useful from any answer to it!”


    In my opinion there’s quite a lot to criticise the SNP for thats going on at the moment, criticism and the allowing of it on blogs, as long as its justified is a sign that a blog is balanced I think, otherwise the blog just becomes a shibboleth of closed discussions.

    Maybe the WGD doesn’t want to read any other than mild criticism of the SNP because he feels it will damage the cause, but whose really damaging the cause our criticism or the SNP heirarchy, that’s where opinions become divided.

  216. Breastplate says:

    Dan, that’s a great article.

  217. Breastplate says:

    Agreed, nothing interesting about an echo chamber.
    I actually like hearing different viewpoints to mine if accompanied by reason, it makes for a much more interesting debate than “you’re an arsehole” and the reply of “aye, yer Maw!”.

  218. Merkin Scot says:

    WGD is a good writer but somewhat limited.
    A permanent hissy fit is not going to get independence for anyone.

  219. jfngw says:

    Republicofscotland, kapelmeister, who rattled my cage,

    If you are not a member of a party you have no access to the decision making process. You can complain as much as you like wherever you like (not at constituency meetings or at conference) but you have no vote on the direction of the party. You have an equal voice as Richard Leonard or Ruth Davidson has on SNP policy, that of a ordinary member of the public.

    Voting for a party gives you no rights as to its direction, you are voting for the policies they have declared.

    Of course you can go along and harang your local representative, but you are 1 of thousands of voices, it has no more influence than any other constituent. If there is enough people raising the same issue you may gain some traction but getting that coherent response seems as unlikely as getting those here agreeing the best strategy.

    You can delude yourself that politicians give a shit about your individual plans for independence, I will try and stay in reality.

  220. jfngw says:
    6 August, 2020 at 3:58 pm
    Republicofscotland, kapelmeister, who rattled my cage,

    If you are not a member of a party you have no access to the decision making process. You can complain as much as you like wherever you like (not at constituency meetings or at conference) but you have no vote on the direction of the party.’

    Funny, that sounds like the complete, secretive contempt the SNP upper echelons (NEC and otherwise) are holding party members in anyway. Least I get to gripe and snipe, compltely unacknowledged, and don’t have to pay for it. Except in pain at the country I love being systematically being run into the ground by a pantaking pansexual cabal waving their own private(s) agendas, that is.

  221. kapelmeister says:


    Politicians and party activists do not own the political process. The SNP does not own the independence movement. Nicola Sturgeon does not own the SNP, but she seems prone to forgetting that.

  222. crazycat says:

    @ Republicofscotland at 3.32

    My (attempted) post didn’t criticize the SNP! It didn’t even mention them.

    It could have been construed as inferring that the poster I was questioning had made a mistake, about something that was nothing to do with the SNP (he/she claimed that constitutional referendums were restricted to once every 7 years by the “constitution that Scotland and England share”, or some such wording; I said I’d never come across a time constraint except for Northern Ireland, and asked for a reference).

  223. Ottomanboi says:

    Covid-19 has by default become a public political matter, and a classic ‘football’, when it ought to be a matter of personal health. Some rather small fish are also by their quasi despotic actions pretending to be bigger fish, ichthyosaurs perhaps.
    Democracy and individual freedoms are crumbling before our eyes and the masses conform.
    The lessons of the European 20th century have plainly not been learned well enough.
    And all done in the name of a disease from which the majority of the infected will recover.

  224. jfngw says:


    If your not a member you have no ability to remove her as party leader, only party members can.

    It’s true the SNP don’t on the independence movement but without a powerful political force how is that going to happen.

    At present if you asked the public if they know what ISP are 99% would probably say BT, Virgin, Sky or Plusnet.

  225. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @jfngw –

    Your point is fair enough on the face of it but doesn’t address the fact that if a party is in power with no effective opposition then the internal machinery of that party must be open to scrutiny.

    When it isn’t – as is plainly the case with the SNP’s NEC – then anti-democratic behaviours can easily take hold and remain unchallenged.

  226. jfngw says:


    No, that’s how all parties work, if you want a say on party policy decisions you join the appropriate party and pay your fee.

    Everyone has a input in some respect as parties want to be elected so must try and appeal to a large base. That’s why parties like RISE fail, they assume Scotland is left wing, I’m not convinced it is as left wing as some believe.

  227. Republicofscotland says:

    “Voting for a party gives you no rights as to its direction, you are voting for the policies they have declared.”


    On the contrary, depending on how successful or unsuccessful a party is at election times voting for or against a parties policy can and ultimately does changes the direction of those members who vote internally in which direction a party chooses.

    As for your uncalled for delusional remark, I’m sure most folk in here are well aware of it, reality isn’t just your dominion I’m afraid, there are plenty of folk in here whoreside in it as well.

  228. jfngw says:

    @Ian Brotherhood

    Come on, no party has its internal processes open to public scrutiny, no party that wants to be elected is going to wash its dirty linen in public. That’s exactly what happens to Labour and people don’t vote for parties that are obviously in internal conflict.

    If you feel they are undemocratic internally then you vote for another party. That is a problem if you want independence because creating another party with traction will take years, it did with UKIP (created in 1991 I believe and has won one WM seat in its history).

  229. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @jfngw –

    It was laid out, in detail, right here, just 48 hours ago, how undemocratic the NEC’s behaviour was, in blatant breach of its own rules.

    Washing one’s dirty linen in public is one thing – shiteing in the bed and hoping no-one notices is another altogether.

  230. Terry callachan says:

    To a hundredthidiot ..0945am

    You said

    Many will say the initial lockdown was correct as people were dying, but that is no longer the case, herd immunity may be taking hold.

    You do have to wrestle with the facts though – this may meet the definition of a pandemic, but less than 2500 deaths over four months is hardly the stuff of the black plague or Spanish Flu now, is it? At some point we need to get back to normal – it is ‘when’ that point is reached which should be the basis of debate and it isn’t.

    My reply

    The thing is deaths have been fewer than they would have been if we didn’t have lockdown

    Herd immunity is taking place already across the world

    The thing about herd immunity is that you can do it in a responsible and caring well planned way where fewer people get infected week by week
    Where fewer deaths occur week by week
    Where the NHS can give good care and treatment to numbers that are manageable


    You can do it the irresponsible way like Boris Johnston like Donald Trump
    where infections run amok
    where deaths are higher than the need be
    where the NHS is not able to cope

    In Scotland we see the former at least from the time NS abandoned Boris Johnston’s method

    In England and USA we see the latter where infections and consequently deaths have run amok

    Without lockdown it will take Scotland a long time to reach herd immunity tipping point 70%
    With lockdown it will take even longer
    but until there is a vaccine
    every elderly person
    every disabled person
    every person highly at risk of dying or being left with severe long term effects
    deserves the best care the NHL’s can provide

    We can only do that by controlling it the way the Scottish government is doing at present

  231. Tannadice Boy says:

    A relatively quiet day on the news front after a poor day yesterday. Which I am thankful for. Sometimes you need to stand back and think. To me, Sturgeons position looks untenable in the medium term. Political gravity always operates and change is needed. Can she find a way to accept the inevitable or will she take down the movement? Here’s hoping she sees the light.

  232. jfngw says:


    Yes you can vote to through them out of office, that doesn’t give you any say in their next policies. If you are not a member you just have to hope that they move to policies that gel with you. You can only influence where they move by being a member.

    Sorry if you found delusional insulting but anyone believing any politician has a real interest in you personal circumstances is not being realistic. Unless you want to be one of Richard Leonard’s martyrs to be paraded in Holyrood to make a political point, whose name they will be struggling to remember the next day.

    Yes I am a cynic, and the SNP is a political party the same as the others. They just have a reason to exist that I agree with, if they don’t deliver it I will move on (I’m actually to old to move on as if they fail there will be no independent Scotland in my lifetime).

  233. Terry callachan says:

    Bob Mack..1007hrs ..

    You said

    The party has been distracted from, if not directly avoiding the topic of Independence and you have to ask yourself why?

    They know everything we know about the possible interference from Boris Johnson in Scotland’s devolved responsibilities,
    as well as al! The other permutations posted on Wings about how Boris could feasibly close Holyrood.

    The position of the SNP just now appears stagnant. No ideas.No fight. No interest in their members are at each others throats over several issues.

    It is adrift on a sea of seeking apathy. Covid is important, but so is my freedom from what is basically English rule.

    My reply…

    Come on Bob…You know why SNP are distracted from independence at present
    SNP, Nicola Sturgeon and others have been open and said it ..often

    They want to deal with this covid19 emergency and have put Indy on the back burner til they have

    I trust NS

    Indy will be back on the front burner soon enough

    I feel the same as you , I’m 64 time is running out I want to enjoy some time in a free and independent Scotland the country of my birth and mother and fathers both SNP supporters

  234. jfngw says:

    @Ian brotherhood

    Well vote for another party then or join them and try and change it. If you want change you really have to do something about it, just pointing it out to me is pointless, I have no power (less than yourself in fact).

    It is people who change a parties direction, how do you think the woke brigade has infiltrated so many institutions, they have mobilised. If you want to influence things you won’t do it from behind a keyboard.

  235. Terry callachan says:


    You said

    SARS CoV-2 virus is possibly fatal only to those whose immune systems are otherwise deficient or present other, usually untreated, medical conditions. General health, both physical and mental, plays a major part in prognosis.
    You can check this out in the virology literature.
    Be wary of pontificating government propaganda on this complex matter.

    My reply

    You are correct Ottomanboi but the problem is as you get older you may be well or think you are but the fact is a sixty year old heart or lungs , liver , kidneys , brain etc can be failing and you just don’t know it….til something like covid19 puts it to the test and kills you

  236. defo says:

    “If you want to influence things you won’t do it from behind a keyboard”

    The existence, and undoubted success of WoS says otherwise.

  237. jfngw says:


    One amusing thing from you post is that ‘whoreside’ is not on the banned list in the Rev’s filter.

  238. Terry callachan says:

    Kapellmeister 1008hrs…you said …
    A new party properly focussed on the goal of independence would either quickly supplant the SNP as the main indy party or else it would attain enough electoral support to bring the SNP back to its senses and into a sane post-Sturgeon era.

    My reply
    Possibly Kapellmeister but as we have seen recently ( LIST ) there would probably be more than one replacement aiming to take over AND it would be on a bigger scale than ( LIST )

    Result ? …Confusion , decimation of the core that has brought us to 54%

    Now is the time for sensible organised calm actions

    Hold your nerve Indy will be to the fore again soon

  239. jfngw says:


    No doubt WoS is a successful site but what policies has the site had influence over and what legislation has been changed because of it? You shouldn’t confuse popularity with influence.

  240. OldPete says:

    If Nicola Sturgeon were to give up the leadership of the SNP tomorrow, who would replace her and keep the SNP polling at over 50% ? My guess is no one.
    A new Independence list only party ? Who is going to front the new party to gain the votes they need to get seats ? My guess is no one.

    Divide and disrupt it’s the English way of ruling all its colonies. To them that is all Scotland is a colony a region of England, some here need to remember that when they waste their votes next year. At present all we have is the SNP, if you don’t like the way it’s run then join up and change it.

    I want Scottish Independence tomorrow but next years election fought on Independence front and centre by the SNP is the way to go. Once we are Independent then vote for any one you like. Infighting is what our opponents wish for and if we give them what they want then we will never escape the rule of English government’s we don’t vote for.

  241. Terry callachan says:

    Michael Laing 1012 hrs …you said

    @Terry callachan at 9.44am: You are blind to reality. It’s become clear that, under its present leadership, the SNP doesn’t want independence. It is embarrassed to even mention the word, and has done nothing over the past six years to bring it about. Instead, it has descended into corruption, in-fighting and imposing absurd policies that are not supported by the majority of the public. That being the case, what’s the point in voting for them?

    When the SNP actually takes steps to bring about our independence, I will be more than happy to rejoin the party and give them my vote.

    My reply….

    In the last six years SNP have taken us from 44.7% to 54% in favour of Indy

    SNP and NS have said Indy is on the back burner til covid19 dealt with
    I agree with their decision

    As for imposing policies not supported by the majority of the public ?
    How would you know ?
    We don’t know what the majority think

    I’m with you on your last para…if we ever meet at the Indy celebration I will buy you a pint for that last para..

  242. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @jfngw –

    We’re going in circles here, and citing the woke brigade as an example of some kind of genuinely spontaneous and popular grassroots movement doesn’t help your argument.

    The behaviour we’ve seen evidence of is profoundly undemocratic and worrying. Entryism is perhaps inevitable when any organisation looks certain to be in power, but turning a blind eye to blatant manipulation – or outright ignorance – of democratically-established rules (whether they’re technically ‘secret’ or not) is asking for trouble.

    No-one needs a membership card to make that simple observation.

  243. Terry callachan says:

    Stuart McTavish…1106hrs …you said

    As of yesterday there had been no confirmed death from covid for 20 days despite 344 new cases having been confirmed over the same period

    That suggest it takes at least 20 days for someone to die from it.

    During the 20 days before the last confirmed covid death an additional 177 new cases had been confirmed.

    Accordingly the upper bound for the hospitalised mortality rate (at this time of year) must be in the order 0,2% (1/521) which is probably slightly less than that for flu, and significantly less than it must be for welfare, economic or any other type of aggressive political sanction(s)

    In view of the foregoing, and on the basis that there is no such thing as a stupid question, my first questions to the lockdown police might be along the lines of how do they calculate mortality rate, what is it for this ‘disease’ and what must it be in order to vindicate house arrest of potential suspects.

    My reply…..

    Good points Stuart…the thing is we don’t want to go down the road of punishing people , persuasion with evidence is best

  244. Tannadice Boy says:

    Old Pete says

    Nobody is indispensable. I can think of a few people that can do the job. Granted they are in WM at the moment and have to overcome artificial party barriers. Hasn’t stopped Dougie Ross and shouldn’t stop any SNP MP from entering the fray. Sturgeon is divisive. Why can’t you see that?

  245. Terry callachan says:

    Republic of Scotland …

    I said…
    Every other issue that comes up is small fry compared to Scottish independence ”

    You responded …

    Terence Callachan, don’t you think you should standing outside Bute house shouting this at Nicola Sturgeon. Afterall its not us who are ducking the issue.

    I think that because NIcola Sturgeon said at the outset of covid19 that Scottish independence would be on the back burner until it’s dealt with
    I intend to give her and SNP that time
    Once covid19 is no longer top of the list
    I will be expecting a lot of action on Scottish independence referendum from NS and SNP

  246. Terry callachan says:


    You said…

    Divide and disrupt it’s the English way of ruling all its colonies. To them that is all Scotland is a colony a region of England, some here need to remember that when they waste their votes next year. At present all we have is the SNP, if you don’t like the way it’s run then join up and change it.

    I want Scottish Independence tomorrow but next years election fought on Independence front and centre by the SNP is the way to go. Once we are Independent then vote for any one you like. Infighting is what our opponents wish for and if we give them what they want then we will never escape the rule of English government’s we don’t vote for.

    My reply

    I totally agree with you, well said

  247. Beaker says:

    @jfngw says:
    6 August, 2020 at 5:05 pm
    “It is people who change a parties direction, how do you think the woke brigade has infiltrated so many institutions…”

    These activists do not particularly care about what organisation they join, only that it is one that has a substantial presence in the public view. However the most important factor is the ability to influence policy – be this political or commercial.
    These people do not care about the core policies of a political party.

  248. Bill McLean says:

    Hear,hear Terry. Don’t know how many times the danger has to be pointed out! o/t Can anyone tell me if the National site is down? Can’t get it at all.

  249. Republicofscotland says:

    “jfngw says:
    6 August, 2020 at 5:13 pm

    One amusing thing from you post is that ‘whoreside’ is not on the banned list in the Rev’s filter.”

    Yes apologies for that I can’t even work out which predictive text word arose from it, lol.

  250. jfngw says:

    @ian brotherhood

    Of course you can comment on it, what I’m saying is you can’t influence it as an individual without being a member.

    I didn’t refer to anyone as a grass roots or spontaneous movement, there are not enough of them to justify that nomenclature. But they have realised you can gain influence by getting access to the levers of power. They have been pretty successful, only the prospect of a massive public backlash has halted them, this is an example of the traction I mentioned earlier to change a parties direction. The example was to highlight how you gain influence by getting active, the actual reason is unimportant.

  251. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Bill McLean at 5:53 pm.

    You typed,
    “o/t Can anyone tell me if the National site is down? Can’t get it at all.”

    I”ve just tried it 6 times. Only once I got the main page. All the other attempts resulted in,

    Hmm. We’re having trouble finding that site.

  252. ahundredthidiot says:

    Terry Callachan

    I tried to read your response. I did. But when you come straight out with your TDS on full display I can’t take anything you say after that, seriously.

    It genuinely is like an illness.

    For which there appears to be no cure.

  253. Stonky says:

    Request for a heads up from more experienced commenters on this site than me.

    When you get a “This comment is awaiting moderation”, is it like Disqus? Where “This comment is awaiting moderation” means “Pal, your commment will never ever see the light of day…”

  254. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @jfngw –

    ‘Of course you can comment on it, what I’m saying is you can’t influence it as an individual without being a member.’

    Again, I disagree, and I’m not doing so just for the sake of it.

    What about the screeching of brakes and spectacular U-turns following exposure of the NEC shenanigans? Was that all due to SNP members lobbying their reps?

    It had nothing at all to do with people all across the country shouting ‘you must be joking!’?

  255. Republicofscotland says:

    Stonky@ 6.23pm.

    I think there’s certain words that trigger it, I’ve had several in moderation but I’m sure they were still visible, if its not visible then I assume its either caught somewhere or deleted.

    Maybe other commentors can add to this.

  256. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Stonky at 6:23 pm.

    You typed,
    “When you get a “This comment is awaiting moderation”, is it like Disqus? Where “This comment is awaiting moderation” means “Pal, your commment will never ever see the light of day…””

    When I’ve had that message on WOS, I’ve found, usually, that the comment eventually appears. However, unfortunately, it then appears on the page at the original time of posting, so is missed by those who keep up with the latest comments since they last visited the page.

  257. Republicofscotland says:


    It works for me Brian.

  258. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    And don’t type any word that includes the consecutive letters R, A, P and E. Like g-r-a-p-e, for example.

    Or mention the username C-a-c-t-u-s…


  259. jfngw says:

    @ian brotherhood

    People all over twitter were shouting, the vast majority of the public are probably nonplussed about it. They will have no real interest in what has been happening, or probably even care that much. Most people are not interested in the minutia of politics or political parties, they pay attention and vote at election time otherwise they just want to get on with their lives.

    That’s not saying they can’t become interested in a political story if they feel it has a direct effect on them but that is not a day to day occurrence. I suspect if you asked the pubic the name of the Labour leader you would be lucky if 30% could tell you, the internals of the SNP NEC is of even of less interest to them.

    The kickback was from within the SNP, why else would one of them write a piece for Wings, party members read wings.

  260. Brian Doonthetoon says:


    Picked this up from RT’s Twitter page:

    So I emailed this to

    Hi there.

    The BBC is directly funded by the UK Treasury.

    The TV licence fee goes to the Treasury. The Treasury then funds the BBC.

    Therefore, it meets your criteria for “State-affiliated media”.

    I assume that you will, correctly, tag all BBC accounts with the tag “UK state-affiliated media”.

    X. Abcdef

    I got this reply…


    We appreciate you reaching out, but Twitter doesn’t monitor emails sent to this support address.
    To contact our support team, please submit a request through our online form.
    We also have resources and articles on our Help Center that might be able to answer your question.


    For further info:-

  261. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    A follow-up to my comment at 7:02pm…

    From The National.

  262. Tinto Chiel says:

    @WhoRattledYourCage 2.45: a brutal but sadly true assessment of the FM, imo.

    I’ve gone from thinking she could almost walk on water in October 2014 to finding I can’t even listen to her now as she focuses relentlessly on a diminishing health issue to the exclusion of everything else and at the specific expense of the only thing that matters, our independence. She seems to lap up the adulation of those who will probably never vote for independence but see she’s doing better than Johnston at the expense of the those who have marched for Indy for six years and whom she seems to regard with complete disdain.

    For the umpteenth time for all the genuine SNP voters who warn of the Establishment trying to split the movement (and think it’s taking place here with Stu as their tool): it almost certainly has already but it’s by sending the party down the Looney Tune path of GRA, the Hate Crime Bill and the NEC pochling of electoral seats, to name but a few.

  263. McDuff says:

    Terry Callaghan 5.22pm
    Terry immediately before the referendum we were on 51% that’s why the Vow was hysterically put together and given a MSM blitz. So in reality the SNP under Sturgeon has taken us up a mere 3 points in six years.
    Sturgeon is not interested in Indy and everything she does confirms that.

  264. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Must repeat this.

    Something stinks…

    Remeber to unmute.

  265. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Remeber = Remember

  266. Bob Mack says:


    We are trying to get the SNP off these let issues BEFORE they become the focus of the media,because can get your bottom dollar leading up to an election the media will be all over them, telling women they lose their rights and everybody the SN P want to create a controlling State by deciding what you can of cannot say.

    That’s how it will be sold on every media outlet. It’s crazy.

  267. jfngw says:

    Tweets that make me laugh.

    What has Alyn Smith ever actually done to further the cause of independence? I recall one cringe worthy speech and a raised eyebrow and that’s about it.

    Just made me think Mr Smith is to politics what Roger Moore was to acting. The Tony Holland of political eyebrows, one for the oldies there.

  268. jfngw says:

    @Bob Mack

    I agree, I said a few days ago the SNP are suffering from the problem of being in power for too long, political parties start to disappear up the own backsides once this happens. Our problem is there currently no viable alternative.

    I’m a hypocrite in a sense that I tell others to get off their backsides and do something but do nothing myself. My excuse is I’m not good at strategy and even worse at being a salesman.

  269. Bob Mack says:

    Alyn (Daddy) Smith raises the eyebrow to wait for it

    Ooze an air of sophistication.

    There goes my dinner!!

  270. Davie Oga says:

    Scottish Government refusing to release legal files to Salmond Inquiry. Most things already given to the inquiry completely redacted.

    Hard to argue with the #stugeonmustgo Britnat hordes on twitter.

  271. Mialuci says:

    The SNP don’t want independence, heh heh heh

  272. Mialuci says:

    I am pretty bored with wings just now, and I do suspect I am not alone, there are to many on here that just rabbit on and on and on, and in the middle of rabbiting they drop a link.
    What is wrong with you people, get a life for godness sake

  273. Mialuci says:

    Politics is just not that interesting to most people, and I am one of most people

  274. cirsium says:

    @Ian Brotherhood, 9.40 and Whorattledyourcage, 2.45

    Well said.

  275. Bob Mack says:


    Maybe you need a break

  276. Bill McLean says:

    Thanks BrianDTT at 5.53. That’s what I was getting too but seems to be OK now. Thanks again!

  277. jfngw says:

    I see there is a push for the estimated grades by the teachers to just be given to this years students, in the end making the certificates worthless.

    What about last years (and previous years) students that didn’t get their predicted grades, surely they also deserve their grades upgraded. After all if the teachers predictions are correct this year how are they wrong in other years, it can surely only be the moderation results of the exam that was at fault.

    Without moderation this years students are being given a massive boost in their employment potential and university access compared to other years. I can’t think of anything more unfair than that for the majority of young people.

  278. bipod says:

    Thats all well and good @Terry Callachan, except one problem. There isn’t a shred of evidence to prove that the lockdown suppressed the virus or saved a single life. Let alone to the degree that the supporters of lockdown claim. Sweden remains an uncomfortable example for those who are convinced of the lockdowns efficacy, thats probably why they have spent so much time over the past few months trying to tear it down.

    Something that lockdown supporters seem to forget is the massive consquences that come with these lockdowns. Massive economic damage, the current bloodbath in the leisure and hospitality industries, the NHS still not returning to normal operations which can be seen in the current huge underdiagnosis of cancer cases (around 30,000 people are diagnosed with cancer each month in the UK, we are currenlty only doing half that) and not to mention the mental and social damage being done to people, for many the lockdowns have taken away the things that make life worth living. Its not just about giving up your jaunt to aberdeen beach.

    What really surprises me is that we have not had a single death caused by covid in nearly a month, nicola is obsessing over a tiny number of infections where most are probably fine, but the hysteria surrounding the virus and eagerness for more lockdown is higher than ever.

  279. Beaker says:

    @Bill McLean says:
    6 August, 2020 at 5:53 pm
    “Hear,hear Terry. Don’t know how many times the danger has to be pointed out! o/t Can anyone tell me if the National site is down? Can’t get it at all.”

    Are you using Three? I’m stuck with Three 4G mobile wifi with a dongle. They are fucking awful to put it mildly. OK, I got the sim from IDmobile unlimited data for £21 pm so I suppose you get what you pay for. It’s essential for home working. I have my phone with EE and only had one problem due to local mast issues.

    The only good thing is I have a monthly rolling contract. Trying to get out of Three is supposed to be murder.

  280. MorvenM says:

    Salmond affair: Government refuses to disclose legal files in Holyrood enquiry

    Leslie Evans dragging her feet. Who’d have believed it?

  281. So what interests you Mialuci,

    entertain and enlighten us with your likes and dislikes,

    is it the fitba or the snooker or the horses or are you a trainspotter or a twitcher or maybe it`s stamp collecting that gets your juices flowing,

    cricket ?

  282. Tannadice Boy says:

    Jfngw says

    Agreed shambles of a system. Having worked for the SQA I can tell you the Highers prepared for this year are still in their brown secured envelopes. Done months in advance. (Before lockdown). No reason to prevent pupils from sitting them in October. An injustice that won’t go away. Let the grievance pupils feel be addressed and let them sit them! Of course that requires an admission of wrongdoing that you wont get from the SQA. But surely the FM will intervene? Remember she wants to be judged on Education.

  283. jfngw says:


    Here’s one of the links:

  284. Robert Graham says:

    Eh anyone tempted to post a link to the Herald

    Please include a warning


  285. twathater says:


    Don’t know if this has been posted yet but over on Grumpy Scottish Man THIS

    Well worth a read and thinking about

  286. cirsium says:

    @bipod, 8.45

    a tiny number of infections where most are probably fine. They may not even have an infection at present. The PCR test can be positive from the coronavirus debris from an infection which happened weeks ago and the infecting agent may even not be SARS-CoV-2. See section 4 of the following article by Dr Beda Stadler. “Coronavirus: Why Everyone Was Wrong. It is Not a “New Virus”. “The Fairy Tale of No Immunity”

    The over-reaction in Aberdeen is another chapter in the story of how civil rights in a democracy are eroded.
    “The lockdown has caused a humanitarian tragedy”

  287. jfngw says:

    @Tannadice Boy

    How does that help anyone due to start university in September. Are you condemning everyone to take a year out, for what reason. All systems are imperfect, some clever people cannot handle the pressure of exams, their will always be those a system fails.

    Life isn’t fair, best to learn that at a young age.

  288. Dan says:

    @Scot Finlayson

    It’s possible Mialuci is suffering a depressing come down after the last few week’s btl action which ended when Stu finally called BUCKAROO! last night and sent MBP off to the knacker’s yard…

    OT: I thought Rev’s avatar image looked like a disgruntled Jamaroquai Buffalo Man stomping off head down.

    Day out for those inclined. I imagine Manky Shirt might make the effort. Think he’s been at more Indy marches than me… 🙂

  289. Robert Graham says:

    The English civil service Masquerading as the Scottish Government have ducked up Royally but refuse to disclose how , refused to disclose how much cash and Hours wasted in a vindictive attempted prosecution, Will fight tooth and nail to block any disclosure of how they operate, The people who are involved will remain hidden , not one Civil Servant will be dismissed, reprimanded or any way be held liable for misuse of funds in Public office, above all these people refuse to answer and disclose evidence required by a cross party inquiry instigated by the Scottish Parliament ,
    There you have it a English Civil Service operating within the Scottish Government that answers the the English government , anyone know of another country on the planet where this takes place , or where it would be Tolerated .
    One will do , obviously apart from Scotland.

  290. Bob Mack says:

    The Ministers can give permission for evidence to be heard in spite of what the Civil Service are saying. Do you think they will?

    If not there can only be one reason,and we can guess what this is I think.

  291. Tannadice Boy says:

    Jfngw says

    Pardon? 5th year students go into sixth year. 6th year Medical applicants apply in October along with their UCat test. The rest apply in January for other courses. Sixth year pupils have a conditionality placed on their University application. Typically 2 advanced highers.It is clear to me you dont know anything about our Education system. I am glad you never advised my bairns.

  292. Tackety Beets says:

    Tannadice Boy etc

    As I sat my Os an Hs in early 70s much has changed since then.
    Currently I am struggling to accept the “down grading” of only some 25% of pupils to enable the modelling to fit.
    Surely downgrade everyone equally to fit the modelling?

    There are some really horrific downgrading out there, but then again there are always people who expect an A but get a C
    My worst subject was always English……got a Comp O in Higher in 5th year yet A in the other 4 Doh!

    Anyway what I am unclear on :

    Currently, are the prelims pupils sit in Jan specific to each school or does every pupil sit the same exams nationwide?
    eg sitting higher English, does every student in every school sit the same prelim?

  293. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Some light entertainment in these interesting times:

    “A SENIOR Scottish Labour activist has urged the party to expel members who support independence. Duncan Hothersall, editor of Labour Hame, says anyone even considering backing Yes “should be shown the door”.”

    I’d forgotten about him and his delusions.

    If implemented there would only be Ian Smart, Hotdogstall himself and a few other rabid British Labour in Scotland Zealots left.

    Especially as 43% of Scots who voted for Labour in December’s General Election back independence!


  294. Dan says:

    This short concise page on Scotland’s Finances may be of interest for folk to share with contacts.

    Business For Scotland’s twitter page for those that may want to follow it.

  295. Tannadice Boy says:

    Tackety Beet says

    Prelims are specific to each school but generally of a consistent standard. It is hard to believe that a pupil with 5As in the prelims would only get 2 As and 3Bs in the finals as most of the work has been covered by January. I think the SQA model is a joke. Every year a pupil from a disadvantaged school and area gets 5As. There is no countenance been made of individual effort. This has happened on our watch and the collective we have failed this 5 year cohort.

  296. kapelmeister says:

    Can’t the Salmond Inquiry have the SG issued with a subpoena to hand over all relevant files in an unredacted state?

    Nixon had to surrender all the unedited Oval Office tapes concerning Watergate after being ordered to by a unanimous vote in the Supreme Court.

    Looks like Tricky Nicky is trying to outdo Tricky Dicky and get away with it. But surely Holyrood must have recourse to the law on this.

  297. MorvenM says:

    Scottish Government refuses to submit evidence to Salmond enquiry:

  298. Davie Oga says:

    Robert Graham

    I would like to believe that it was the UK
    civil service who were out to destroy Mr Salmond. That was the first thing that came to mind at the start of it all.

    If the FM is not involved

    Why did the FM retroactively request to change the complaints procedure in the code of conduct, despite the apprehension of the UK civil service?

    Why would she give her full backing to Leslie Evans, even going so far as extending her contract after she spunked away a half million quid?

    Why do those who cannot be named retain their positions at the heart of the Scottish Government and the FM’s office despite a not guilty verdict and corroberated evidence of perjury at the trial ?

    Then there are the obvious lies she has told….

  299. Robert Graham says:

    Eh Dave

  300. jfngw says:

    @Tannadice Boy

    I’ll agree I’m no expert in the admission system but your explanation has not shone any light on it. Just a lot of staccato sentences are not an explanation.

    Is this a recognised solution or one you have just dreamed up, are universities outside Scotland signed up to this solution.

  301. Tannadice Boy says:

    Jfngw says
    Ok the admission system is complicated but circumnavigatable for people that want to address the injustice that has just happened. I gave you my simple solution if you had cared to listen. The higher exams are in a secured envelopes and are available now. Let the kids who feel a grievance sit them in October. Still time for Universities to complete due process in their admission process. Of course that requires political will. And I don’t feel it from you. So be prepared for years of dissonance from these pupils.

  302. Effijy says:

    Terrifying Covid Stats Today-
    US, Brazil and India have over 10 Million cases between then.
    They have over 300,000 Covid Deaths and 3,000 Deaths between
    Them today.

  303. Tackety Beets says:

    Tannadice Boy.

    I now understand that prelims are designed by each school to a similar/universal standard.

    Like you Im astonished that they used selective downgrading as opposed to a universal downgrading to fit the model.

    Those poor kids getting an A in some cases down to a C or even a D! Jeez.

    If tests done early Oct, how quickly could they be marked & results sent out is one Q.
    There will be winners & losers again, as there is every year & will open another can o worms ?

    I worry for those poor students having to appeal.
    I truly hope the are given justice.
    I hope t hell the SQA address some of these crazy downgrades.

  304. schrodingers cat says:

    disappointed that there has been no agreement to allow mps to stand for holyrood

    As i have said, i believe this is it, this is the moment where we will get a mandate from the people of scotland for independence.

    this isnt the moment to bringing in new blood, this is the moment to push the boat out and leave nothing for the return journey.

    if we win and bojo says yes, the mps will be closing up shop in wm anyway,

    if we win and bojo says no, i would argue that the time for mps to walk out of wm had arrived.

    whats the point of mps resigning and us campaigning for new mps to travel to wm when the 1st thing they will be doing is walking out and coming back home???

  305. Oneliner says:

    Maybe I’ve got this wrong?

    The Scottish Government consists of:
    1] The political party in power
    2] The chantywrasslers in the Civil Service

    Surely it’s time for some disambiguation

  306. jfngw says:

    @Tannadice Boy

    My opinion or political will is irrelevant as I have no input or finger in the pie.

    What I can’t see is how this works, who is to teach these retake pupils, the schools will already have a new sixth year. I don’t know how many actual pupils that is but there was over 130K downgraded results, it’s unknown how many would want to sit the exam. If they take them in Oct they currently have had no real education for near 5 months, can they really get back up to speed in a few weeks or could they end up with an even lower grade as the exam would over ride the current awarded grade.

    I could see those that failed to reach a university entrance grade expected would see an advantage, not sure for the rest. Those that didn’t reach the predicted grade don’t want exams just the grade they expected given to them, this produces an unrealistic increase in the pass rate.

    You also didn’t answer about how universities outside Scotland would react to this, the Scotgov have no say in these.

    So you have another solution, you haven’t convinced me it would be any fairer than what has happened, it’s just different.

  307. Beaker says:

    Re the SQA results.

    The whole thing is a fucking fiasco. I’ve not had time to plough through the SQA published statistics for the past couple of years, but I would imagine the expected number of appeals this year is going to dwarf anything before.

    Look at the whole impact. It’s not just the appeals, but the impact on every stage of the process of going to university or college. If a student does not get their first choice of university, it’s not simply a case of getting the appeal through. Even though tuition fees are paid for Scottish students they still need to apply for funding through the Student Awards Agency for Scotland (SAAS). If an appeal is not upheld, then the student will either have to defer or try and get on another course. That means they need to make a change to their SAAS application. Universities and colleges will not accept students unless they can show how the fees will be paid. Bear in mind that the English/Welsh results are next week and then the clearing process begins. It will be first come, first served.

    I’m not saying that any other party would have done better. There may be a similar situation in England and Wales next week. But all of that is irrelevant to Scottish pupils.

    I will be very surprised if Swinney survives this. But what people should really be worried about is the impact on next year’s elections. This could fuck things right up.

  308. Beaker says:

    Apologies for two posts on the trot, but John Mason strikes again on Twitter saying that students “lives are not in tatters”.

    Oh dear…

  309. A Person says:

    Can’t sleep tonight and look what I found on Twitter…

    Alyn Smith (!) saying that “too much of the party’s oxygen has been taken up by peripheral issues like GRA reform”.

    Is the tide beginning to turn?

  310. Confused says:

    – stick all the idiots in their own little playpen.


  311. twathater says:

    @ A person 1.45am just read the tweets by allllyn (in a catherine tate voice) WHAT A FUCKING LOAD OF SHIT, he’s panicking that the wheels are coming of the cushy number, if anyone’s a narcissistic self serving user I would put him at the no 1 spot

    Now it’s all about too much time wasted on peripheral issues like the GRA yet he was struck mute when his boyfriend was abusing and denigrating real females some of whom were his fellow party officials

    Alllllyn is now ready to throw Baaaad NEC members to the wolves and he has OVEN READY proposals ( where have we heard that b4) to balance these peripheral affiliates by removing them from the NEC and setting up a new wee cabal

    People talking about joining the SNP to take back the party, I’d rather join the moonies than support manipulating fakers like him

  312. susan says:

    GRA Reform a peripheral issue Alyn? Fuck right off with your shit! Yes it is peripheral to the SNP’s core aim of Scottish independence and so should be scrapped. But it’s NOT peripheral to the rights of that half of the population it will directly impact. Denying science to cosset a tiny bunch of ppl with mental health issues and a larger bunch of fetishists is not on. Independence isn’t worth it at that price.

  313. Robert Louis says:

    The sooner this reaches target, the sooner things progress in court to make it clear, that Scotland can hold an independence referendum without begging (SNP-style) permission from England.

    Just a wee donation, if you can, will really help. This is important and the people behind it, are very experienced.

  314. Effijy says:

    Chancellor Sunak coming to Scotland today to try
    And stem the tide toward independence.

    Again SNP officials don’t raise the important matters surrounding
    This issue?

    He is through out the figure of £4.7 billion of Covid Support from Westminster.
    The figure isn’t Scotland’s figure but that of the 3 colonies.

    So why hide Scotland’s figure by adding in the Welsh and N Ireland figures?

    I take that it’s not an impressive figure for us when broken down per head and
    Pro rata it will less than is spent in England.

    So this money he is giving us, is he giving us England’s money or is it purely borrowed debt?

    Will Scottish taxpayers have to pay it all back, plus interest, plus 100’s millions
    Wasted with non existent or defective PPE deals and none disclosure deals with Tory supporters.

    If Scotland becomes Independent, will we be expected to pay back this money “given”?

    If Scotland was already independent, could we have borrowed money just like every single
    Other country in Europe?

    I think we here already know the answers here by why am I need having it confirmed by SNP or
    A Scottish media out-let.

    At 7am Sunak is already locked in a Glasgow factory.
    No awkward questions or external protesters for him
    Before being wished away to Mother England and the
    Cradle of corruption.

  315. David F says:

    O/T question but I don’t know where else to put it. I’m not that familiar with the site navigation. When I logged on today I was taken to a long thread about the annual fundraiser. Some comments mentioned a live tracker updating the amount raised. I went and made a payment but I couldn’t find my way back to that thread and I don’t know where it is. Nor can I find the fundraising tracker.

  316. Breeks says:

    twathater says:
    7 August, 2020 at 3:10 am

    @ A person 1.45am just read the tweets by allllyn (in a catherine tate voice) WHAT A FUCKING LOAD OF SHIT, he’s panicking that the wheels are coming of the cushy number, if anyone’s a narcissistic self serving user I would put him at the no 1 spot…

    And it’s just a problem of numbers??? I recall one of the Stirling Uni contingent referring to the “internal majority” which the Wokist contingent enjoyed. It raised a few eyebrows, (no pun intended on Alyn Smith), but it was never established what this sinister internal majority was, whether it was on Sturgeon’s cabinet, the NEC, or something else altogether.

    It’s a long overdue relief to see tentative indications of the SNP beginning to address this departure from reason, but somehow, I’d feel a lot more reassured if it reflected concern about Scottish Independence rather than just SNP bums on seats in 2021.

    Yes, it’s high time the Wokist boil was lanced, but that alone isn’t going to reverse the damage done and time wasted ‘not’ pursuing Scottish Indepencdence, nor will it reopen windows of opportunity which have now closed, such as Scotland’s unconstitutional colonial subjugation through Brexit… a battle we could have won with a Constitutional Backstop and emphatic democratic mandate, but where we must all now live with the consequences of unforced capitulation by the Scottish Government.

    Both Scottish Independence and Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty have been mightily damaged and betrayed by lame and cowardly SNP strategy, and sooner or later, the bell will toll for those responsible.

    What can be salvaged of Scotland’s sovereign Constitution has yet to be determined.

  317. David F says:

    Other question, I don’t understand why my comments are being held for moderation (one I posted yesterday never appeared at all). I don’t comment a lot here but I have posted several times over the past few months so I’m not a new poster. Have I been put on moderation or banned for some misdemeanor I’m not aware of?

  318. ahundredthidiot says:

    cirsium @ 21:23

    thanks for that link – interesting reading. reminds me of the good Doctor in Germany putting his head above the parapet with his throw away remark on camera ‘not a new virus, it’s a new test’

    Considering we were all on high alert (from June 2019) for a devastating seasonal (slightly mutated) flu to arrive on our shores for winter 19/20 nicknamed ‘aussie flu’, it does makes you think.

  319. Rm says:

    Not an ounce of compassion fae this conservative money man sent up here to let us know how lucky we are in Scotland, we’ve been saved by English money, I hope the Scottish government step up today and demand borrowing powers for Scotland and at the same time tell everybody in england it’s our own money that we’re using and Scottish money that’s keeping england going, nows the time to make a move, come October we’re going to be in dire straights we have to control our own money and country.

  320. ahundredthidiot says:

    I look at Sunak and can’t help thinking he’s a Patsy

    Maybe Gove isn’t as stupid as he looks.

  321. Rick H Johnston says:

    Sunak declines to answer a direct question about borrowing powers requested by Kate Forbes for Holyrood.
    He says a decision will be made next year.
    The election is next May. Kate Forbes has made it clear these powers are needed now, not as a Tory election sweetener for Douglas Ross.
    Fair makes your blood boil.
    Time to get out leafletting again.
    Either the SNP or the YES groups need to mobilise and start building momentum.

  322. Polly says:

    Effijy @ 7.26am And Breeks in the tweet after

    Well said and I’m sure I’m not the only one in agreement at the sentiments expressed.

  323. Liz says:

    Alyn Smith is taking care of Alyn Smith. That’s his sole purpose in life.
    I don’t trust him one inch.
    He wants to control the NEC.

    I swing between Nicola behind the woke lot and her having been so compromised she’s abdicated all responsibility.
    She told us she’s focusing on Covid only, she’s clinging to it like a life saver.

    Power hates a vacuum, IMO she’s not in charge anymore. AS, AR are vying for control.

    Meanwhile on twitter the faithful are still clinging to the ‘secret plan’

  324. Ottomanboi says:

    ahundredthidiot 08:36
    Gove, by far the brightest of the bunch is playing a long game. Softly, softly catchee monkey. The last hope of Scottish Unionism and the only serious rival to Suppression Sturgeon.

  325. Big Jock says:

    Breeks – Alynnnn is so pro EU. That he took the first flight out of Brussels, and was parachuted into Stirling, when it was clear Bawbag Blackford was full of hot air.

    Remember this classic: ” Scotland will remain a European nation” Aye very good Alyn. Yes geographically we will , but politically we have been stripped of our citizenship without even a challenge.

    That’s why we should all be angry. The fact that England is deciding our EU status for us , is a bloody disgrace. The fact the SNP had 3 years to stop them and did nothing is scandalous!

  326. Sunak (2007) worked for hedge fund `The Children’s Investment Fund Management` (TCI) who forced the sale of Dutch bank ABN AMRO to RBS which resulted in the near collapse of the UK economy.

  327. Mialuci says:

    Scot Finlayson

    I can feel one of my funny turns coming on, why are you asking me questions you know I am the shy retiring type and don’t like to push myself foreward.

    Well here goes anyway, what are my interests

    Fitba-22 guys kicking a bag o wind aboot, aye some of its ok
    Snooker-Aye but in small doses
    Horses- Aye
    Trainspotting- Naw
    Twitcher- Naw
    Stamp collector-naw
    Cricket- your fond o yir joke pal

    This is my main interest these days- I am interested in ignoring stupid question by silly people called Scot ( just kidding )

    Having said all that I will stop soon, I try to limit myself to small burst of rubbish from my brilliant mind, not to mention my good looks and dynamic personality, I hope you noticed the last bit about me being a dynamic personality, I got that from Boris Johnstone, he was on a local radio show discussing beekeeping and happened to say that he had a dynamic personality, and I believed him until I found out he was just as big a twit as he looked

    And lastly I must answer these two guys on here
    Dan Whit are you on aboot, you been at that geek beer again

    jfngw- Is that a klingon name or are you using it for a bet
    I had a look at you link, just out of curiosity you understand, I prefer the stones myself

    Phew, and finally, I do not own a television set, its true I tell you, would I tell lies here on this place of boringivity, dont bother, get away from that dictionary or you will feel the back o man hawn boy, I made that word up tae try and impress all my followers, who are usually the worse fur drink, well ye need a bloody drink tae read some o the shite I write aboot

    Have a nice day, and don’t forget to flush, you know it makes sense

  328. Bob Mack says:

    Reading Alyn Smith’s tweets indicates a minor retreat from the some nonsense.

    Now this did not happen because people were joining the party.

    This happened because people were leaving the party. That is what is making them take notice. Vote SN P all you like as often as you like, but use the power of your withdrawn membership to bring them back to reality very quickly indeed.

    What matters more? The SNP under control of bad leadership or our route to Independence. Decide for yourself.

  329. Dan says:


    FM states about Dani Garavelli : “She truly is one of the most gifted wordsmiths alive today.”

    It does appear that Dani’s words are certainly “on a different level” in the potential jigsaw identifier stylée, and possible contempt of court genres when compared to what certain others scribe…

    But I guess judging words is all down to personal interpretation and preference.

  330. Bob Mack says:


    I tried to flush your post, but it refuses to go away.

  331. mike cassidy says:

    If you think the SNP’s internal troubles are bad

    I saw from the inside how Labour staff worked to prevent a Labour government

    Enough to have Rockhard Leotard choking on his muesli.

  332. Republicofscotland says:

    After reading Clive Ponting’s (who recently passed away) take on how devious and ruthless this Tory government is, and how Mr Ponting, an ex-top civil servant at Whitehall, take on what he thought Westminster might have in store for Holyrood, after Brexit and a No Deal, I’ve now come to believe that if we get another shot at voting for independence it will be our last, as Westminster in my opinion will rush to negate Holyrood’s powers post the 31st of December, and they’ll be very little we can do about it.

    I also think this would be against the interests of the majority of the MSPs at Holyrood, as well as the population of Scotland. Therefore, I’ve decided to entertain the idea that if I can see this coming then so can the SNP government, and I’m hoping that the SNP are covertly planning an indyref before the Tories neuter Holyrood for good next year, which they will.

    Mr Ponting pointed out that he knew of the emergency powers that he drafted up, that Westminster might use to dissolve our Scottish parliament.

  333. Breeks says:

    Liz says:
    7 August, 2020 at 9:15 am

    Alyn Smith is taking care of Alyn Smith. That’s his sole purpose in life.
    I don’t trust him one inch.
    He wants to control the NEC.

    Me neither. I try very hard not get drawn into the tin foil hat theories and paranoia, but IF Mi5 did have an inside man near the heart of the SNP, quietly disrupting the SNP, central to the damaging Woke conspiracy and steering the Trans-GRA lobby, with his bizarrely objectionable boyfriend ticking away like a timebomb, pro Europe, but then not really, and extremely quick off the mark to look after his job, first out of Europe to get a job in guess where? Stirling of all places…. well, let’s just say, if I was to put on my tin foil hat and indulge my irrational paranoia, I think Alyn Smith would be credible possibility.

    His most credible defence would he’s too obvious, but its a crank theory that keeps echoing in my head. IF….

  334. Bob Mack says:


    I think you are right. It is now only a matter of time.

    Time which is being wasted currently by the SNP. I believe there are senior MPs who see this and want to do something about it, such as Joanna Cherry Angus MacNeil and others.

    You can find them constantly giving warnings to this effect.

    Get nothing emerges from Holyrood unless it’s to do with Covid,which Is Sturgeon admits will put politics for her on the back burner.

    I see our chances for Independence slowly day by day vanish over the horizon I hope I’m very wrong about this, but I have this incredibly uneasy feeling the permanent tipping point which will destroy thoughts of Indy is very near.

    We can blame no one but ourselves.

    Should this occur I will leave Scotland forever and set up home in France like an old Jacobite.bedevilled by dreams of what might have been.

  335. Breeks says:

    I forgot too… Pamela Thornton ex-GCHQ is his caseworker.

  336. Orri says:

    No the Alyn Smyth tweets don’t do what you think they do.

    They reduce it from 42 members down to 18 to 24. His proposal stinks as it removes direct representation from those people. His proposed “minorities” committee gets rid of direct input from them as does his regional one. He claims they’ll be yet another check on the NEC which may be true but only if they can be rigged to his way of thinking.

    More probably it’d reduce them from 18 to 24 votes to just 2 so if there’s a fundamental disagreement it could swing votes big time.

    Also he assumes the NEC have the final say. They don’t. That’s either Council or Conference. unless they succeeded in their attempt to get rid of the Council and avoid holding a Conference.

    His idea about introducing rules ignores the point that it’s up to either of those two bodies to adopt, or amend them and presumably they could refuse either.

    It’s actually like the position of the EU Commission and Pariament when it comes to proposing laws. An arrangement he should be familiar with. Obviously in the EU case the individual member states implement an interpretation of what’s required compatible with their own legal framework.

  337. Breeks says:

    Bob Mack says:
    7 August, 2020 at 10:52 am


    I think you are right. It is now only a matter of time.

    Time which is being wasted currently by the SNP. I believe there are senior MPs who see this and want to do something about it, such as Joanna Cherry Angus MacNeil and others…

    I think you may be correct to a point… BUT…

    It’s the same old chestnut I keep banging on about… Scotland’s Constitutional sovereignty.

    Suppose in your worst nightmares that the SNP crumbles and doesn’t see off a Tory attack which closes, or more likely just emasculates Holyrood, what Scotland will have lost is weak and constitutionally naive Scottish Government and a quasi-parliamentary assembly which ultimately recognised the sovereign authority of Westminster, NOT the people of Scotland. If Holyrood respects the sovereignty of Westminster above the sovereignty of the Scottish people, then Holyrood is their parliament. Not ours.

    IF Scotland loses Holyrood, then Scotland becomes again the Scotland that existed pre 1998, and all the trappings we will have lost are merel those trappings bestowed upon Scotland by Westminster, FOR Westminster in 1998.

    But if that happens, then Scotland will not then be hostage to any mealy mouthed Mickey Mouse devolved government which buckles under the weight of a Section 30 Agreement from the colonial Scotland Act. All things being equal, the sovereign Nation of Scotland can still reconvene the TRUE Parliament of Scotland for the first time since 1707, and call it’s own Parliament which respects the Constitutional Sovereignty of the Scottish people.

    Maybe the whole 20 years of Devolution has just been a spectacular dead end, which was never going to deliver Independence, but if that is so, then the people of Scotland will know and finally understand that Independence was, is, and forever will be, a constitutional matter for the sovereign people of Scotland, – NOT any affair or devolved puppet government “bestowed” upon us by a foreign government and disguised as a blessing which has the power to rewrite the Scottish Constitution.

    If Holyrood isn’t “our” Parliament, then Holyrood is a fraud, and an illusion of self government, and it’s no loss to Scotland if Westminster’s puppet government collapses.

  338. Bob Mack says:


    I tend to agree. I think we have tended to become distracted by promises made by the SNP that they would save us from one disaster after another but failed miserably to do so.

    Referendum, Brexit, stripping of Holyrood powers. All blind alleys of hope because the SNP actually had no plan to deal with them in reality, other than bluster.

    Offering hope is one thing, but deliberate deception quite another.

    It buys them time I suppose but little else. Al! The while their credibility shrinks.

    They may well be the best party to govern Scotland in many years but they offer nothing new ‘re now we preconceived from this Union.

  339. Liz says:

    PS I’m sure the Rev has seen Alyn Ss latest whinge.
    You’re just pure nasty to him, Stu.

    He’s a beacon of correctness.
    Poor him and his poor abused partner

  340. Bob Mack says:

    Damn predicatext to hell.

  341. Robert Graham says:

    Can’t disagree with anything you said
    A time for a bit of reality about the position we are actually in and not where most people believe we are .
    The single reason why different views of the way forward are why people at each other’s throats just now , we should all be going in the same direction maybe with a slightly different views of the route , but in the end it’s the same destination .
    All this squabbling could be stopped with Strong Leadership , ok Nicola your doing a great administrative job in handling the current serious situation , meanwhile Bawjaws Tory government are marching ahead and are not being actively challenged , This tunnel vision has blinded you to the reality of not what this Tory party are intending but what they are acutely doing.

  342. Ron Maclean says:

    I suppose we should be grateful to Nicola Sturgeon for recognising that the Scotland she presides over is not ready for independence. The apparatus of government required to run the country honestly and effectively is not in place even although she’s had more than five years to instal it. It’s time she admitted that she’s taken us as far as she should in the wrong direction and got out of the way. Surely there is someone of integrity in the SNP with the fortitude to stop the rot and help her on her way.

    Breaking up a three hundred year old union needs more than an inability to enforce social distancing on reluctant drunks.

  343. Bob Mack says:

    I understand those who comment on the way they perceive folk who comment on Wings. They believe us extremists who are trying to destroy the SNP and this Independence.

    These folk are usually very moderate in outlook with an unshakeable belief in Nicola and the SNP as a party.

    They believe opinion polls point to freedom because 54% of Scots have said so. I wish.

    Meanwhile what do you think Westminster is doing? Ignoring those polls?

    Quite simply it is way ahead on plans to make those polls insignificant. It will do what is has to do .

    Opposition? A rousing shout of “you can’t do that”

    That’s where we are.

  344. Effijy says:

    Nicola just said she wouldn’t consider foreign holidays
    While we battle the Coronal Virus.

    Herald the announcement of a few thousand more
    Travel Agency jobs lost.

    If you planned to go to a country with fewer Covid cases and dearths
    Which is most of the planet, why wouldn’t you?

  345. Polly says:

    If Holyrood is a mere puppet which they ‘collapse’ when the time is right it won’t please the majority of Scots. Many who don’t want independence really do love and want devolution, and many labour, lib dems, greens like their place in parliament and like the laws they can enact which they know would be impossible via Westminster. Only out and out unionists, it seems mostly tories, call for the complete abolition of Holyrood and taking things back to 1998.

    If Holyrood were to be abolished the conservatives north or south wouldn’t be able to stand up to the backlash. I think it more likely they’ll go down the route of slowly stripping power after power and overruling us bit by bit. Slowly boiling the frog as other folk say, until we are truly emasculated and keep us as that puppet. That’s the real problem since the gradualist SNP will have nothing left to stand on if they don’t stand to fight back soon. The tectonic plates are shifting and soon they’ll be up to their necks in magma.

  346. Polly says:

    @ Liz

    I saw the Alan Smith thing last night and this morning and I agree wholeheartedly with you previous post

    ‘compromised she’s abdicated all responsibility.
    She told us she’s focusing on Covid only, she’s clinging to it like a life saver.
    Power hates a vacuum, IMO she’s not in charge anymore. AS, AR are vying for control.’

    It is a life saver for her at the minute with the Salmond inquiry, brexit etc., nipping at her heels. It feels to me she knows she’s messed up big time and that’s been a cause of inaction for a while, that with her notorious caution. I’m guessing when she started out and got all that adulation when the party numbers exploded she began to feel they’d follow her anywhere. But her promises and gradualist approach has worn thin in face of brexit barrelling down on us and her proposed ‘progressive’ stance has withered away in front of her – what’s left to her really but keeping people alive? It doesn’t seem to me she feels she can deliver independence, there seems no fight left in her for anything but covid.

  347. Breeks says:

    Polly says:
    7 August, 2020 at 12:23 pm

    If Holyrood is a mere puppet which they ‘collapse’ when the time is right it won’t please the majority of Scots…

    You’re correct Polly. Westminster wouldn’t be dumb enough to close Holyrood, but merely emasculate it and leave it as a toothless talk shop with no authority, or merely token authority.

    That is pretty much what Labour set it up to be…

    Westminster can give us Holyrood or take it away, but Westminster cannot give Scotland sovereignty nor take it away.

    But I think strategically and politically, Scotland would be in a much stronger position if everybody understood the Sovereignty question between Scotland and Westminster, and Holyrood’s precarious position in no-mans land in between.

  348. jfngw says:

    If England can rip up the devolution agreement (they already have by procuring the devolved powers) agreed and voted for by 1.775 million Scots. Then surely we can rip up a union agreement voted for by 110 Scots.

  349. Bob Mack says:


    Yes I concur. The only route I can now see out of this mess is the legal establishment of the Sovereignty of the Scottish people. It was deliberately fudged by The Supreme Court during the Brexit case by stating the will of the Scottish people is represented in Westminster by those elected in Scotland..

    We most now clarify that fudge. It was a legal device not to mention the difference that exists between us and the rest of the UK.

    Hopefully the Keatings case will establish distinctions that clarity. Claim of Right is our legacy.

  350. Beaker says:

    @Ron Maclean says:
    7 August, 2020 at 12:03 pm
    “I suppose we should be grateful to Nicola Sturgeon for recognising that the Scotland she presides over is not ready for independence. The apparatus of government required to run the country honestly and effectively is not in place even although she’s had more than five years to install it.”

    She cannot even control the behaviour of sitting MPs and MSPs, particularly on Twitter. I doubt very much that Salmond would have tolerated this.

    The SNP used to be the leaders in using social media. Not any more.

  351. What Westminster seem to forget that by closing all the democratic ways to win our freedom we will be left with only one option to fight for it and if we have to it will be their fault not ours yes none are so blind as those who refuse to see Every country they have forced to resort to having, to fight in the end Westminster have lost

  352. JayR says:

    Robin McAlpine: The foundations of Scotland’s democracy have crumbled and you should worry

    PICKING what to write about this week isn’t easy – I could happily unpack what I think is going on with Cherrymandering, the SQA debacle, the return of lockdown in Aberdeen, the virtual admission that Sturgeon misled parliament about a crucial meeting, the latest nonsensical stuff coming out of unionism…

    But are they really separate issues at all? Or is something systemically wrong with our political system and our democracy?

    Let me start by doing something which isn’t done enough; stating specifically the foundational principles on which Scottish democracy is based (remember the 1998 Scotland Act anyone?). This isn’t a random system – it has specific elements for specific reasons.

    Scotland’s entire political system is designed around the intention of cabinet government and parliamentary government (alongside powerful committees). It expects a professional and autonomous civil service to facilitate the elected government, but also to stand as the first line of defence against unlawful actions and to answer to the nation’s democratic institutions.

    It has a series of checks and balances on executive power written into its ‘constitution’ (which isn’t actually codified in one place). It assumes a mass party-political system in which the priorities of the system are driven by the large-group participation of ordinary people who ‘own’ and govern the parties they choose to join.

    It is built on the assumption of a plural democracy in which a competent group of opposition parties hold government to account. It is based on a diverse free press to monitor all of this and it assumes this takes place in a society with a broad and active civil political culture.

    So does it not seem of great concern that every single one of these foundations has crumbled to a point where asking us to believe they are fit for purpose is a very big ask indeed.

    Let’s look briefly at each.

    Cabinet Government

    There is no longer any point in pretending (not that anyone has been pretending): Scotland suddenly has a hacked-together presidential system forcibly imposed on top of a democracy which is not designed for it.

    I’m weary of writing about this – I’ve spoken to five cabinet members about this exact issue and not one of them has sought to pretend that government policy is made in cabinet. This is reflected in the fact that the first minister barely mentions it and the media never shows any interest in it.

    Every week, the UK media discusses what will be on the agenda for the Westminster cabinet meetings; this isn’t even a subject of mild curiosity in the Scottish press, and everyone knows why.

    Presidential systems generally have checks and balances built in, like legislatures in which the president does not sit and can’t fully control. We, on the other hand, have one politician who governs according only to what she wants.

    Let’s take the SQA debacle; like everything else, it seems clear to me that the only real consideration was how the exam problem would make the first minister look. She clearly wanted a slight improvement – but not too much. In other words, to look like last year with a slight uptick.

    It’s plain as the nose on your face that the methodology was retrofitted to achieve the outcome. Fearing that the Scottish Government would catch a Daily Mail backlash if poor kids got decent results, it was made sure that they didn’t.

    Had I pages and pages to spare, I would document dozens of examples where government in Scotland has been calibrated primarily to the interests of a first minister who behaves like a president in a system ill-equipped to deal with this concentration of power. It is why virtually everything this government has done in five years has failed – you can’t weld a presidential model onto a parliamentary democracy without consequences. They’ve been dire.

    Civil service

    Another consequence of this presidential model is that the civil service and its agencies have all gained the clear signal that they will always be protected if they work in the interests of the first minister.

    Let’s look at the SQA again – it at no point ever behaved as if it was answerable to Scotland’s democracy. A government agency refusing to talk to a Westminster parliamentary committee would be virtually unthinkable; in Scotland, it’s pretty routine. The first minister will keep every loyalist in their job no matter what, so there is only one incentive.

    This is an acute problem at the centre. The ‘independent’ head of the civil service in Scotland thinks nothing of aligning herself with the First Minister in what she calls a ‘war’ with her predecessor which is absolutely and purely political. The civil service has no business being within a country mile of this stuff.

    When even one of Sturgeon’s most loyal sidekicks states the bleeding obvious – Evans should resign or be fired – what does Sturgeon do? Extend her contract. Contempt is a currency for this administration.

    What Evans and those below her should have been doing was the core business of, you know, providing the government with regular written briefings on the unfolding virus crisis around the world. That is not what it was doing; it seems to have been trying to work out how to provide the least information it could to another parliamentary committee.

    Much more is going to come out on this, and again and again the conclusion returns; it is hard to identify where the Sturgeon team ends and the civil service begins. This might seem obscure to some of you, but it’s hard to overestimate how dangerous this is.

    I may be critical of many UK institutions – and the civil service no less so – but its scrupulous independence (I’ve seen it in person a number of times) is why endemic governmental corruption isn’t one of the UK’s problems. I’m not sure you can say that in Scotland now.

    Checks and balances

    The first and most important check on the Executive (the government) ought to be the Legislature (the parliament). But since every SNP politician knows that one act of dissent and their internal career is over (forget constituency support from HQ for their next election), there hasn’t been a single dissenting vote this entire parliament.

    And since either the Tories or the Greens (alternating) give them a majority at the drop of a hat, they don’t seem to see parliament as a decision-making body so much as a theatre.

    As for the other checks and balances – well, when parliamentary committees can’t get crucial information from the civil service or its agencies, they can’t function. And while there just isn’t space to cover the other ways this administration is degrading other little transparency and accountability measures, I’ll give you just one example.

    How many countries in the world made the first act they took when Covid hit to effectively suspend freedom of information laws and float abandoning jury trials and the suspension of elections more than a year in advance? Not Trump. Not Putin. Not Bolsonaro. Sturgeon.


    It is I think finally possible to write in public what everyone has been saying in private; SNP HQ is utterly corrupt and has been for years.

    This is an entity in which the person in charge of the rules can receive a very serious complaint of sexual abuse, suppress it, be publicly exposed for this – and not only face no consequences but be there corrupting the party’s decision-making processes months later.

    Everyone, in my experience, has been saying that SNP HQ is an utter disgrace for five years. I talk at SNP branches a lot, and when I do I am the picture of diplomacy (you don’t go to someone else’s house and criticise the wallpaper). Three years ago, I was asked at one meeting why the SNP’s political campaigns are so incompetently organised.

    I gave a diplomatic non-answer. Asked again, I suggested there was a quality deficit in HQ. A respectable-looking older woman immediately got to her feet and shouted “Peter Murrell is a disgrace!”. The room burst into loud and unanimous applause and shouts.

    I know a group of business figures in the party were proposing a vote of no confidence in Murrell (based on the fact no Chief Exec could be that bad and keep their job in their sectors). They backed off when they were told (effectively) that Sturgeon/Murrell would burn down the whole house if they tried.

    “It’s an indivisible package,” one told me, “unless we are willing to rip the party apart”.

    HQ routinely (and remarkably openly) smears internal critics. It rigs things to favour preferred candidates. It simply ignores serious complaints if they’re about ‘the wrong person’. It is toxic and nasty, but people have believed they have no option but to stomach it.

    The real truth is that it doesn’t pretend to act for the party as a whole, but only for the leader and a small clique organised around her. It is a stain on Scotland’s democracy.


    The great majority of these above failures are the direct result of the Sturgeon/Murrell regime and can be traced back directly to their household. But even I can’t blame them for the opposition.

    It’s barely worth covering this so obvious to everyone is the state of things but Labour is more hobby than party and the Tories are obsessive and irrelevant. Both are transfixed by the constitution and, frankly, their hatred. They don’t seem to want to recover – go read Hothershall and you’ll get the idea.

    Among them there is only one who has asked effective, competent questions on a regular basis. I may have had my differences with Neil Findlay, but our democracy will miss him. So unusual was the competence of his questions that Sturgeon could get away with ‘choking up with emotion’ and refusing to answer.

    (This isn’t completely fair, particularly on the Greens who individually have done great work, and others like Adam Tompkins, Iain Gray and Monica Lennon who have had their moments. But this ain’t an opposition.)

    Every time Sturgeon fails (which is a lot), they manage to fail worse. What’s a democracy without an opposition?


    Is Scotland’s media incompetent and biased or under-resourced and powerless? I swing between emphasising either view on a daily basis. Let’s just say a bit of both – but it’s definitely not working.

    It’s hardly worth detailing this, but let me give one case study. Last year, Nicola Sturgeon announced that she intended to make Scotland a ‘world leader’ in 5G. For anyone not technically literate, 5G has a very short transmission distance and so roll-out in sparsely populated and mountainous territory is very difficult.

    There are only three players in the technology side: the US, China and Finland. Scotland isn’t at the races, so it can only be roll-out she meant. So what is her plan for overcoming the enormous physically difficulties in making Scotland a ‘leader’?

    Just so we’re clear, this claim is as off-the-wall and impossible to support as anything Donald Trump has said. So was she questioned on this? Nope – the newspapers wrote it up and moved on. She wasn’t mocked for weeks like Boris Johnson or Trump (or Corbyn or May or Cameron) would have been.

    And earlier in the year, when the UK Government announced the banning of Huawei equipment (delaying roll-out for two years at the UK level), did the Scottish media ask Sturgeon how this would impact on her (non-existent) plans to be world-leading? Nope, they did not.

    Scotland is a country in which the first minister can blurt out utterly ridiculous bursts of unsupportable braggadocio with no consequences at all.

    This is a minor matter, but it tells the story. Right now, it is my belief that the Scottish Government’s point-blank refusal to put in place the pre-symptomatic randomised test and trace system Common Weal detailed, costed and called for four months ago is going to lead to substantial new lockdowns – if not another national lockdown.

    Every day Johnson is held to account for the failures of his test and trace system, and yet I’m dubious Scotland’s is actually better from what I can see. Up here, the first minister says she’s done it, so the journalists are satisfied.

    Civic Scotland

    Where are you? Where are the academics documenting the decline of democracy in this country? Where are the health or wellbeing charities holding the government to account for its Covid response?

    Where is the vibrant and wide-ranging debate about our economic future given the crisis we face? Where was there a proper public debate about what to do about this year’s exams?

    The little players (like Common Weal or Living Rent or Friends of the Earth) are carrying much, much more of the civic weight than they should be. This is deeply unhealthy.

    Why? Partly the ‘complicity strategy’ started by Tony Blair and loved by everyone since (make charities reliant on you for income and they stop talking and put their hands out). Partly its the desperate lack of funding available in Scotland. And partly it’s because they all know what happens if you’re marked down as a ‘dissident and enemy’ in the Sturgeon/Murrell era.

    Should you worry?

    This should worry you deeply. This is not abstract. This is a real and present danger to Scotland’s democracy.

    But you shouldn’t despair, because while not all of it is temporary, one of the core reasons for all of this is that Sturgeon/Murrell won’t be around forever – perhaps not much longer, by the looks of things – and at this stage almost anything would be better for our democracy.

    And there is nothing at all in the above which cannot be fixed – and fixed quickly – by a government actually keen on democracy.

    But I beg you; please greatly up your vigilance between now and then, because there is one final element of democracy they haven’t quite managed to degrade yet. The people.

  353. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Other question, I don’t understand why my comments are being held for moderation (one I posted yesterday never appeared at all). I don’t comment a lot here but I have posted several times over the past few months so I’m not a new poster. Have I been put on moderation or banned for some misdemeanor I’m not aware of?”

    You’re showing as 0 comments so you must have changed your username or email address or IP address.

  354. Polly says:

    @ Breeks

    I agree entirely. But what I guess I was trying to say, not very well, is that after 20 years of devolution, seeing the possibility of what we could be, then we none of us (or very few outright hard right unionists excepted) would be willing to go back to that pre 1999 time. But further, I’d argue that even emasculating Holyrood would only work for the tories, since the other unionist parties see they get their policies through via Holyrood (and seat on Scots gravy train) and without it would be even more diminished within the UK pool than they are in the SNP minority led parliament. So they too I believe, I hope, will fight for it when the time comes, for their own sakes entirely, but benefitting Scotland, which will make the SNP and Green’s case stronger if only the tories here cheer on any destruction.

    The other unionist parties will not do that for reasons of sovereignty for Scotland but it might have the same effect, and they might even start to use that argument for themselves when the time comes. I agree with you about the right of Scotland to be sovereign without any stipulation or permission being given from elsewhere. They don’t believe that (since they can’t even fight for real sovereignty for their own, supposedly Scottish, parties) but when it comes to protecting their own prerogative to stand for and be elected in Scotland I think when push comes to shove they will support Holyrood against the planned emasculation. And I believe that many people like myself who have seen the potential for independence from seeing with limited powers what Holyrood has already managed, often on a consensual basis, many folk like me believe in our full sovereignty now and will not let that go. If powers are stripped from Holyrood there are other ways to fight back and them doing so gives us more sticks with which to beat them. I’m not unhopeful about the future of independence, even post brexit.

    My unionist relative believes we should already have the power to shut the border for covid and make our own deals with EU for medicines after brexit, and she is still very unionist but supports the rights of Scots to protect ourselves when needed. She didn’t realise Holyrood position between two unequal powers and was incensed when the border wasn’t closed for health reasons. I think people like her, when her own welfare was potentially affected, realise the need for full sovereignty without understanding or being interested in constitutional matters. What I think matters is that they do feel like that, whether her for health reasons or liblab parties for seats, for in doing so they’re voicing their belief in Scots sovereignty in their own way and it all helps.

  355. A Person says:

    Re: the McAlpine blog

    I think an issue is that most criticism of the Scottish government comes from a conservative unionist perspective. Yeah the SNP get slated by the Mail and the Telegraph because “how can these bloody Nats have such a crazy idea as independence”. For the 75% of us that don’t have the mentality of a Kirk minister circa 1958, those critics are irrelevant for us, no mainstream media voices are criticising Sturgeon from the perspective of most Scottish voters. Indeed all you get from say the Guardian is “she’s so direct, isn’t she magnificent, if only we had her in England”.

    Not quite comparable but Christopher Hitchens’ “No-One Left to Lie To” explains how in the 90s in America, liberals never criticised Bill Clinton’s conservative agenda and appalling personal misdeeds because “at least he’s not Bush” completely missing the point that to all intents and purposes he was Bush, with added sleaze.

  356. Mialuci says:
    6 August, 2020 at 8:29 pm
    Politics is just not that interesting to most people, and I am one of most people’

    Well fuck off to another site. Jesus, how stupid can some people be?

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