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The Appearance Of Propriety

Posted on May 29, 2023 by

Wait, has Nicola Sturgeon died? We didn’t see anything on the news.

Because there are only a limited number of possible reasonable explanations for why police wanting to find out what Nicola Sturgeon knew about something would ask people who aren’t Nicola Sturgeon.

(1) It simply hasn’t occurred to them to ask her directly.

(2) Someone or someones is/are protecting her.

(3) She is in fact the prime suspect and the investigating team want to make sure they have a comprehensive dossier at their fingertips before they question her, given that they have only a limited number of hours in law in which to do so, and that she has a notoriously poor memory.

As usual, we note that nobody has at this point been charged with any crime and we make no assertions that anybody is guilty of one.

We merely observe the fact that Nicola Sturgeon was ultimately in charge of the SNP (including its Chief Executive and National Treasurer), was a signatory to its accounts, and indeed was its treasurer herself for a short period before Douglas Chapman was replaced by Colin Beattie.

It would therefore be most peculiar indeed if she wasn’t even interviewed during a major investigation into the party’s finances, and the longer that state of affairs goes on the more people are going to start raising eyebrows about it and questioning either the integrity of Police Scotland, or who might be obstructing or interfering with its business.

We also note, without comment or implication, that the current Chief Constable, under whose auspices Operation Branchform has been taking place and who announced his resignation in February a few days after Nicola Sturgeon’s, will finally actually depart his office on 10 August, a little over two months from now.

At some point in the near future it’ll be interesting to note whether that date turned out, one way or another, to be a significant one.

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0 to “The Appearance Of Propriety”

  1. M Lindsay

    I’m beginning to think they put Inspector Clouseau on the team. No wonder Scotland is in the state it’s in, if this is the best that can be done.

  2. Karen

    Swimming in a pool of her own tears. Perhaps we will wake (ha!) up and find it was all a dream.

  3. Scaredy Cat

    You always want to have as much corroborated evidence as possible before interviewing your prime suspect.
    Ideally you’ll only want to interview them once.

  4. Red

    Groundhog Nic has recently reappeared on social media, I assume that means she thinks she’s now safe.

    Really, future generations will be amazed that we put up with our entire political system being bought out from under us, overrun with spivs, and turned into a weapon against the nation state. There are probably only a handful of people in Holyrood or Westminster who shouldn’t be in prison for crimes against the public.

    They don’t work for us. They are actively working against us. Who will rescue democracy?

  5. Rob

    Wondering about dates ahead of us this summer, how might the accountants for the Westminster group be getting on?

  6. Martin

    I suspect option 3. Some people in the police may be involved in a cover up, but there’s only so far the rank and file would be willing to go along with that. Anonymous leaks would have happened by now.

  7. Geoff Anderson

    MI5 always look after their own!

  8. Frank Gillougley

    They didn’t bother with any show of Propriety re Alex Salmond. Can’t imagine why… Wait a minute, let me guess. – Corruption, is that it? Surely not!

  9. Rev. Stuart Campbell

    “You always want to have as much corroborated evidence as possible before interviewing your prime suspect.
    Ideally you’ll only want to interview them once.”

    Indeed. For what it’s worth I think (3) is the most likely reason.

  10. Sven

    Could it be that the signifigance of the August 2023 date for the CC’s retiral is purely administrative, as it was in August 2022 he agreed a renewal of his contract for 3 years.
    I’m sure that his leaving post 2 years early, and his resignation going in during the same time period as the stepping down of Ms Sturgeon, Mr Swiney & Mr Murrell is entirely coincidental.
    Nothing to see here.

  11. Scot

    Ideally you will only want to interview them once
    Yes, but during the first interview you will put your evidence and they will give their account.
    You will then go away and check that account, after which you will have to interview them again so as to record their response, etc.

  12. Anroine. Bisset

    The video mentioned was freely available on MSM sometime ago (2 weeks?). It appears that no one in the police noticed. Presumably one of the canteen staff mentioned it to the Chief Constable just last Friday,”say, Iain huv ye done onyhing aboot thon video whaur Nicola says they’d plenty o’ money? Ur ye wantin mair chips?”

    “My, he left in a hurry. Wiz it something I said?”

  13. Stephen O'Brien

    Sturgeon, she’s untouchable.. ‘The Iron Lady’. Whoops! Preferred pronoun! M’Lud.

  14. Dee

    Agree with red. If telling porkies whilst in office was an indictable offence they would all be in clink.

  15. A2

    I just take from that that if she’s said “never been stronger” then at face value, she actually didn’t know anything about the accounts. Cunning 🙂

  16. A2

    “Could it be that the signifigance of the August 2023 date for the CC’s retiral is purely administrative,”

    Probably pension conditions related.

  17. Merganser

    I think it is option (4): The COPF srvice have not authorised the police to approach her.

    I am being careful with the words I use here, and won’t state the reasons which I think could be behind the decision.

    I have little doubt that the police won’t take any action in this case without the COPF’s approval.

  18. Daisy Walker

    From the set up of the party (any party actually, or business), I suspect only about 3 or 4 people had access to the accounts, and the authority/responsibility/ability to spend money for things other than it was officially raised for.

    They would all have corporate responsibility to raise objections and, if needs be, resign in protest, if it was spent for other things.

    To me that speaks of multiple suspects, acting art and part.

    If only one person ends up charged in situations of this type, the defence becomes, ‘it wasn’t me, it was them that done it’…. and if the ‘them that done it’ (hypothetically speaking) have become witnesses for the prosecution, as I understand it (and I’m working from memory, so I could be wrong), they cannot be prosecuted for the offence themselves.

    From a practical perspective, if the person lowest in rank, turns evidence and spills all the beans, that is often the best way of getting all the intimate details of the case and thereafter a conviction.

    But from a different perspective, if sufficient evidence is there, and there is a corporate collective of suspects, who were responsible to ensure such things did not happen, and none of them are willing to turn evidence, it would be a regular thing to happen that they are all prosecuted, as acting jointly, art and part.

    I find it hard to see the above, long drawn out, protracted enquiry into this matter, in a positive light.

  19. Wullie B

    Well if the corruption is as high as the Chief Constable, but he gets out before it is discovered, then his pension is safe, don’t expect anything to come out before then

  20. 100%Yes

    If Sturgeon has been aiding the British state, I can’t see any reason for the British state to continuing protecting her when she done her job

  21. Ian McCubbin

    She is being protected but knows a lot of what happened .
    It’s time to put this all to bed and charge one of the key players.

  22. Ian Brotherhood

    Is ‘self-cancelling’ a thing?

    Is that what she’s done? She simply airbrushed herself out of the story completely?

  23. James Che

    The UK has agreed to future pandemic lockdowns for All British people with the WHO. With imposed vaccine passports for control according to reporting from GMB news.

    Being left wondering why an Island in the sea is going to lockdown local people while freedom to travel is gifted to migrants in boats to enter and move across Britain freely,
    And Charlie aloud to pay visits with his entrouge to Scotland in the last pandemic,

    The WHO have not been elected by anyone in Scotland,
    But if you are attached to the rest of Britain then these rules were made for you.

    My question is why would you allow a future planned pandemic on to a Island, is that because we do not control our borders after Brexit.

  24. Confused

    The wannabe novelist could start out with some “true crime”.

    – write what you know, eh?

    Bull-dikes can make good crime/thriller writers – Highsmith comes to mind (she was also a horrible person in real life, a psychopath); they seem to enjoy the sadism.

    Nikki was so successful by being a control freak, which means knowing everything about everyone, and it all goes through her; no independent thinkers. Except – we are supposed to believe she is also at times – the biggest scatterbrain in Holyrood – “whit am I like … ahd forget ma ain heid … ”

    – it doesn’t scan. Like a landlord I once had – his ability to speak English was dependent on whether or not you owed him money (late rent) or he owed you (deposit).

    To use an SNP approved on-message terminology – she is “at it”.

    There is an old vid of Nikki speaking/holding court, at no less a place than the Council for Foreign Relations, looking very sleek and in full command of the facts, talking to a high level audience, not tabloid journalists.

    Maybe she will “do a Saunders”; Ernest Saunders dodged the Guinness fraud trial because he had dementia, but then recovered, the only person in the world to do so.

  25. James Che

    That we ( Scotland) are not in a treaty with the rest of Britain since 1707 appears to be correct.

  26. James Che

    1000, 800 Albanians broke their bail condition by cutting of ankle tags and fled into britain according to the Telegraph,
    Will you be so lucky in future?

  27. James Barr Gardner

    Judas only sold out 1 man……….

  28. James Che

    Could a independent Scotland control its borders against a future spreading pandemic better than the Area around Dover?

  29. Mia

    Forget about Murrell and the Vietnam Group’s Whatsapp messages. Far more interesting ones would be those between the crown agents (2017-today) and Chief Constable. But, of course, the perfect picture would be having all the above plus the messages between the crown agent and the Sgov civil service.

    There are still far too many questions needing an answer:

    1. Who has been standing on the breaks of the SNP investigation and why?

    2. Are those the same feet who actively pushed through Mr Salmond’s witch hunt?

    3. Are they the same feet responsible for wasting millions of taxpayers pounds by devising a moreov strategy to give ridiculous charges a veneer of significance and a voice to perjurers?

    4. Are they the same feet abusing power to forcefully suppress Whatsapp messages and government information about the complaints procedure which is highly interesting to the public and could have changed the outcome of the last 2021 election?

    5. Who recruited the perjurers?

    6. Who coordinated them?

    7. Was the morove strategy planned before or after accusers were recruited?

    8. What are the Whatsapp messages really hiding? Is it the brain behind that morove strategy? Is it the link between the COPFS, Civil SErvice and SNP? or is it proof the “victims” were not independent?

    We will never find out if we stop asking.

  30. James Che

    According to a recent conversation with a blogger, we will not accept Scotland is not in a treaty of union because of?


    The 2nd reason is because,
    No independence group has made a plan around Scotland not being in a treaty since 1707.

  31. Alf Baird

    Red @ 10:57 am

    “They don’t work for us. They are actively working against us.”

    Yes, this is what we see in the ongoing actions and inactions of the colonial administration, and also as postcolonial theory confirms, which tells us that: the dominant national party elite ‘is co-opted’ by the colonial power; they ‘behave like a gang’; ‘become part of the racket’; take the independence movement ‘up a blind alley’; ‘rupture the movement’; becomes ‘an instrument of coercion’; ‘attacks the more radical elements’; etc.

    The ex FM’s rumoured UN/international post requiring sanction by UK Gov may still be in play. That will be all the proof required, though hardly necessary given the fact that both current practice and established theory tend to confirm this administration “are actively working against” independence.

    And that would seem to imply Rev’s scenario number (2).

  32. James Che

    On the evidence that Scotland is not in a treaty with Englands Westminster parliament since it was extinguished from the treaty in 1707 according to the UK parliament site,

    Are we in a treaty with the WHO?

  33. Jockanese Wind Talker

    Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Act 2021

    The provisions of the act include:

    Inserting a Section 29B into the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 that creates a Criminal Conduct Authorisation (CCA) which allows undercover law enforcement agents or covert sources to break the law in the interests of national security, the wellbeing of the UK’s economy.

    Keeping Scotland trapped in the Union is most definitely in the interests of “the wellbeing of the UK’s economy.”

    So is there an Option 4?

    Sturgeon is a “covert source” who has been given permission to “break the law” by someone, UK Gov, Crown Agent etc. and will not be questioned or charged as she has a get out of jail free card!

  34. James Che

    Here is a plan.

    Change your message instead of begging.

    Hold your banners high when that state we have not been in a treaty of union since 1707.

    Tweet, email, tik tok, and use any method possible in this modern day and age to state we have not been in a treaty since 1707.

    Demand and pressure all MSP to withdraw from Westminster as they are not in a treaty of union
    since 1707.

    That will be quicker than any Snp policy on independence.

  35. Northcode

    @Alf Baird 1:50pm

    And that would seem to imply Rev’s scenario number (2).

    Is it possible that if her public humiliation, and possible incarceration, suited a change in her protector’s current agenda, she’d be thrown to the wolves?

  36. James Che

    Alba should be leading the way here,
    Some of there members are well aware Scotland has not been in a treaty of union since it was extinguished and dissolved from the treaty of the union in 1707,

    It is unimaginable to think that Alba may have been infiltrated so soon by the same groups that destroyed the SNP from within.

  37. stonefree

    @ A2 at 12:23 pm
    “if she’s said “never been stronger” she actually didn’t know anything about the accounts. Cunning”
    Less than cunning and more than really damned stupid.
    She lies to confirm key lie.
    If anyone can follow my logic

  38. James Che

    Scotland can beg and bemoan its Colonisation or it can stop it within a year by acknowledging it is not in a treaty,

    Fear may be the leading factor to prevent independence,
    Even although you have legal evidence through the UK parliament site that you are not beholden to continue begging.

    The UK parliament 2023 tell you, in their own words, that Scotland has not been in the treaty for the past 300 years

  39. Andrew scott

    Can i respectfully ask James Che to stick to the article upon which is being commented on
    His post on this article are completely off message and frankly getting a bit boring

  40. Andrew scott

    Hopefully police are closing in on mrs Murrell
    Taking an age tho

  41. James Che

    Besides Alba and the SNP deliberately ignoring this information on the UK parliament site , that the treaty ended as soon as it begun in 1707
    One wonders how many other Scottish independent groups want or prefer the long road to Scottish independence whilst imitating support to the end goal.

    Are their many Snp clones in these groups?

  42. John C

    Because there are only a limited number of possible reasonable explanations for why police wanting to find out what Nicola Sturgeon knew about something would ask people who aren’t Nicola Sturgeon.

    (1) It simply hasn’t occurred to them to ask her directly.

    (2) Someone or someones is/are protecting her.

    (3) She is in fact the prime suspect and the investigating team want to make sure they have a comprehensive dossier at their fingertips before they question her, given that they have only a limited number of hours in law in which to do so, and that she has a notoriously poor memory.

    Option 1 isn’t possible as I imagine there are people who’ve been wanting to question her but are, I assume, being guided away from doing that. So options 2 and 3 are what’s happening here but there needs to be some transparency here as to just who has been covering for her.

    I can’t imagine someone not being questioned when their husband is arrested and questioned if only to ensure you’ve got their answers on record.

    It is still extraordinary that in the last six years especially, Scotland has become such a corrupt, failed state where a former FM is even close to a major scandal let alone being married to the person at the heart of it. The failure of all of Scotland’s institutions is astonishing.

  43. James Che

    The back ground of Stu’d site is support for Scottish independence,
    Stu has and does create topics to try make the people of Scotland think for themselves, he enlightens us with his posts over gender issues, the missing funds money, over oil, over statistics and created two books for the Scottish people to grow a pair.

    It seems odd that you suggest Stu would suddenly tell Scots to stop thinking and remain solely attached to his thoughts in a narrow ally.

    But I suppose if you want to try cancel culture to the way forward for Scottish independence….

  44. Beth

    They can’t just wind up the investigation if the money is still unaccounted for fraud can’t be ruled out . Did NS just trust her husband, saw no need to check the accounts? Maybe she doesn’t understand finance? Why did she ask Beattie back when the new one resigned? She just liked him ? Maybe, but, moving on. A very expensive camper van parked in her mother in laws drive? surely she must have visited the “ vulnerable” 93 year old in two years? Even if she didn’t, other members of his family would surely have mentioned the camper van in conversation.
    “ whose is it”. “ its lovely” “ why has it never moved?” etc.

    why did the CEO and Treasurer resign? better them than her? Too many questions without answers. Not a good sign.

  45. James Jones

    James Che, Scotland has been a willing participant in the Union for over 300 years. If there was any mileage in the idea that 1707 was invalid, that time is well past. Please stop repeating it. It’s irrelevant and not a route to independence.

  46. James Che

    Many Scots have passed away that used to comment on here that never saw their wish come true,
    Behind there unstinting hard work for many years they leave behind them, us,
    Many who thought outside the box, many great minds sadly missed that spoke their minds without abusing each other or attempting cancel culture.

    Lets continue their hard work and speak up. And bring to light their dream for our sake and for the generations that will follow us.

    To safe protect them against gender dystopia,, to protect womens rights, to prevent men being falsely imprisoned on rape charges while having no jury.

    Andrew Scott I do not apologise for my comments if it brings Scottish people freedom from oppression, dictatorship and injustices.

    If Stu wants us to quit thinking for ourselves, while maintaining his code of conduct I am sure he will say so,

  47. Mia

    “Is it possible that if her public humiliation, and possible incarceration, suited a change in her protector’s current agenda, she’d be thrown to the wolves?”

    I doubt it. Whatever entity is protecting her must be in doodoo up to its eyebrows too and she would just have to open her mouth to land them on the shit.

    Just look at the entities directly or indirectly involved in all her shennaningans since Mr Salmond’s case: COPFS, police, the courts, the press, the SNP executive, the civil service. The COPFS is still sitting right in the middle of the cabinet blocking bills from entering Holyrood and making a complete mockery of democracy. There appears to be an awful lot of dodgy and unexpected links around those entities that should not be there at all in a functioning democracy.

    Who has the power to orchestrate such links and collusion between so disparate entities?

    From this perspective, it seems the protection of this political fraud has been going on since at least the Holyrood inquiry and for what look like very obvious reasons: damage limitation to the BE and preservation of the power dynamics in Holryood after the 2021 election.

    Her demise at that point would mean Mr Salmond catapulted to the front line again, something rather inconvenient for the British state at a time the SNP held an absolute majority of Scotland’s MP seats.

    It is my view the whole thing is about who controls that anti-union MP majority, hence the urgency to have the continuity candidate catapulted to the post of FM.

    I suspect we will not see any more development until the next GE is on the horizon and she can be used as ammunition to move more of our anti-union seats under unionist control.

    I am guessing that, by that time, she will be far away from police reach in some plum job conveniently created for her. Maybe, just like Jacinta Ardem, she will become the trustee of some prince or another’s charity.

  48. Oneliner

    Tractor Livingstone I presume.

  49. Geoff Anderson

    Does anyone read the posts of James Che?……No!, me neither.
    His shift will be over soon.

  50. Grendel

    James Che’s cuntributions are making this thread unreadable. Please gie it a bye, eh?

  51. James Che

    The Deviance of the Snp and greens while thwarting Scottish independence is the topic, the falsehoods of injustices and legal matters is the topic,
    And in the same vein of legal matters it comes to our attention that the SNP knew their was no treaty of union, but they have led the Scots to falsely believe up a blind ally, that there was.

    To me there is no line between the (Snp)s other breaches of law that Stu has bought to light and this legal matter of not being in a treaty of union with England, they have lied to us about both,

    The Snp and parties of devolved government are not here to gain Scottish independence. Or for the Snp to stay unquestionably on the right side of legal matters apparently.

    So legal debate on a non existent treaty of union topic is well within legal matters that the Snp have failed ( us) the Scottish people on,

  52. Mia

    “The failure of all of Scotland’s institutions is astonishing”

    Indeed. But the question we should be asking ourselves is who is controlling all those institutions and causing them to fail and why.

    What on earth is an unelected representative of the crown doing right in the middle of an allegedly democratic government cabinet, acting as the gatekeeper for whatever bills enter parliament and make it to the body of Scots’ law? If this is not raw colonialism and a complete mockery of democracy, what is.

    Why does Scotland have a “crown agent” but England and Wales do not?

    According to Wikipedia, crown agencies were administrative bodies of the British empire reporting directly to (and wholly owned by) the crown. So what is the real role of this crown agent and what on earth are they doing in the middle of our prosecution service?

  53. Grendel

    James Che’s c*ntributions are making this thread unreadable. Please gie it a bye, eh?

  54. Ian Smith

    Of course if her claim is that she really knew next to nothing about finances, yet she used her influence at the NEC to shut down all oversight based on her knowledge of the finances, nothing at all will happen.

    Nobody will kick her out. Companies House or the Charity Commission or whoever regulates the entity won’t take any action over the governorship of the party.

    It will be just like the Salmond enquiry. No charges taken to claim nothing happened.

  55. James Che

    I would presume that there will be people that want a ensured long slow path to Scotland’s independence, perhaps years away if at all.

    For if you offer a legal obvious way out, they want to close comments down, to try attempt gaining back up and support from others to o so,
    A well managed tactic to alienate.
    But here the problem them trying to stall Scotland from becoming independent.

    I and others know that when you are above the target…
    They screech rather too loud,

    And attempt a cancel culture move,

    So what is it about this subject that they try gather everyone else around them support, to close doors and rank on.

    Mmm is it a legal matter, is it true that Scotland has not been attached to the treaty of union since 1707.

    Judging by the high pitched squealing and calls to repeatedly close the topic,
    Judging by their preference to divert from the topic to talk of any other subject but 1707,
    Judging by the way they lead us on a merry dance away from the treaty of union.

    All of Scotland should be paying much more attention as to being over the target, for the way forward to Scotlands independence.
    Well those that are genuine any way.

  56. David Hannah

    I don’t understand accounting. I don’t understand how the SNP have been allowed to sign off their cooked books with the dental accounting firm that can’t sign off their own accounts.

    Who gets to see the books? Should the public in the name of transparency? Or the UK Government, before they hand them £1.5 Millon. With the active police investigation into massive scale fraud?

    I don’t think so. And one more thing. Where’s the missing 600k Nicola?

  57. Astonished

    The stench of corruption all over the place is getting unbearable.

    The longer you take to make arrests – The worse it’s going to be for you all.

  58. James Che

    I am seeing and others i am sure recognise the people trying to thwart the subject that would instantly lead to Scotlands independence,

    The people of Scotland nor its Country are not in a treaty with the old Westminster parliament since it was extinguished and dissolved from 1707 onwards , the UK parliament say so, Scotland has been deceived.

    We do not or have not ever entered into a treaty of union with the British parliament.
    We do not or have not ever entered into a treaty of union with the UK parliament.

    Squeal all you like, try cancel culture all you like
    These are the legal facts.

    but unionist minded people see this as a horror movie for the union. But it is what it is.
    A Westminster parliament Statement regarding the status quo of the non existent Scotland in the treaty of union,

  59. 100%Yes

    Hello Hello what been happening here then?

    I just thought I’d lighten the mood.

  60. tolkein

    I think that the Police have been reading Wings. At least that shows some signs of intelligence with the whole corrupt lot of them.

  61. James Che


    It personally appears that you may be pretending to want Scottish independence, perhaps the longest route there that you could think of,

    My suggestion is legal, no heads bashed in, no violence.

    Because it was the Westminster parliament that ended the Treaty of union in 1707.

    Not Scotland. In 2023

    It Was Queen Anne that ended the Treaty of union in 1707,

    Not Scotland. In 2023.

    It was Englands government that ended the treaty of union in 1707, Not the Devolved government in 2023.

    Scotland had no choice, the Scots had no choice, it had nothing to do with us at the present time.
    We did not extinguish the Scottish parliament and kingdom from the treaty of union,
    Westminster did.
    It states this on the UK parliament site.

    And to bring this annulled and voided treaty of union issue up to date.
    The English Westminster parliament can not legally challenge a dissolved extinguished 1707 Scottish parliament for breach of the treaty of union, that the Scottish parliament iwas extinguished from in 1707. Can it now 300 years later.

    Scotland is not independent because Scotland won any legal battle with Westminster,

    Scotland is independent because Westminster itself Extinguished Scotland from the treaty of union in 1707. And to ensure it did not take its place in Westminster Queen Anne then dissolved the Scottish parliament in England from the treaty of union in 1707.
    Done and dusted so to speak. Wipe palms of hands together.


  62. David Hannah

    The Two Davies. Laughing away saying the accounts have been signed off. And Murray Foote “is right.” He always my deletes my comments. They are deluded. They think the accounts are signed off. And there’s nothing to see here.

    Jamie Hepburn says that movement of don’t make political change. What about the Berlin Wall says Yvonne Ridley?

    The Independence Convention that no one else is invited to. The 1 day convention. They want to run the next election on SNP only. Then talk about Independence after. That’s the game plan.

    The UK Government would be idiots to hand the SNP money. The books are cooked. By fraudsters. Cooked books.

  63. Alf Baird

    Northcode @ 2:13 pm

    “thrown to the wolves?

    As per Mia @ 3.18, events appear to closely correspond with colonial reality and postcolonial theory.

  64. David Hannah

    The movement of people. Doesn’t make political change according to Jamie Hepburn.

    The SNP deserve to be removed in entirety after they conclude that Independence won’t be on the agenda until after they are re-elected.

    Withold the £1.5 million. You can’t give that kind of money away when an active police investigation is underway into massive scale fraud.

    They’ve been drinking too much deludamol over at Jacksons Entry.

  65. Dramfineday

    It would be interesting if any of the legal eagles that read this site would venture a comment on whether or not they consider the length of time take to reach this stage in the proceedings is inordinate.

    Chum of mine has been waiting 5 years to appear as a witness in a fraud case…..just got his notification of trial recently.

  66. Chas

    I note that more and more posters are calling out the pish regurgitated by Che umpteen times every day.
    Che’s response…………………… post more pish!
    Add Baird’s monotonous ‘colonialism’ crap and you have the perfect recipe for putting any newcomers to Wings ‘off’ for good.

    At least the nutters are on here posting their drivel and not out on the streets creating havoc. Mind you, neither of them would last 5 minutes ‘preaching’ to the general public.

    Sturgeon is being protected………………….for now. It cannot last.

  67. Lenny Hartley

    It should be noted that Craig Murray in his submission to the UN , states that Sturgeon has already been interviewed by the Police in this matter.

  68. Northcode

    @Alf Baird 5:09pm

    Thanks, Alf .

    I missed Mia’s post somehow. Have read it now, though. So thanks to you, too, Mia.

    I expected that would be the case, but thought I’d ask the question anyway. Get some other views.

  69. James Che

    Unionist minded people are indeed calling historical records as pish, because it does not fit into their agenda, it is failure to hold Scotland in a union,
    Perpetrated by Westminster itself, not by Scotland or the Scots.

  70. Tinto Chiel

    Mia 3.41: “Why does Scotland have a “crown agent” but England and Wales do not?

    According to Wikipedia, crown agencies were administrative bodies of the British empire reporting directly to (and wholly owned by) the crown. So what is the real role of this crown agent and what on earth are they doing in the middle of our prosecution service?”

    Now that is a very good question.

    I’m presuming, like The King’s and Lord Treasurer’s Remembrancer in the House of Commons, it’s there to safeguard the interests of The Crown and not those of the proles.

    *This just in*

    Wikipedia (health warning) says that in Scotland the office of TKaLTR is filled by the Crown Agent, the Head of the Crown Office and the Procurator Fiscal Service.

    All for own own good, obviously. That’s a relief.

  71. James Che

    My posts certainly defines who wants the union to be real and forever lasting to hold the Scots
    From the Scots who want independence.
    It is good to shine a light on these people., bots or trolls whatever heading they may come under.
    Some of those also protested that indigenous Scots should not be the only voters in a Scottish referendum.

    That does not alter the legal position of Scotland and Scots having been omitted from the treaty of union since 1707.

    Personal attacks does not alter or change the legal facts that Scots are not in a treaty of union.

  72. twathater

    I would like to see an opinion or guidance from the likes of Gordon Dangerfield as to how long this TRAVESTY of justice is taking , is it normal for the COPFS to refuse and delay permission for a search warrant for a couple of weeks , thus allowing POSSIBLE EVIDENCE of outright criminality to either be destroyed or relocated to a safe location away from the legal search

    Is it normal for a C.O.P. to sign an employment contract extension for an additional 2 years and all of a sudden realise he has somewhere else to be and tenders his resignation

    WHY is Dorothy Bain STILL allowed to be a part of the cabinet when it has been shown repeatedly that it is a CONFLICT OF INTEREST, WHY are the unionist parties not joining together to DEMAND a stop to this egregious practice
    Surely there must be people within the justice system that are outraged at the apparent lack of honesty and integrity in our legal institutions , this must also apply to our police force whose uncoordinated and mismanaged attempts to act professionally in the pursuit of criminality renders them looking like a very bad version of the KEYSTONE COPS without the humour

    Surely there must be sufficient evidence to identify the source of the ILLEGAL sharing of information to the daily record reporter, there are only so many people who could have had access to the information , why is prosecution not taking place against a perjuror who DELIBERATELY LIED

    WHERE is the £600,000 ring fenced referendum donations, donations that were elicited from ALL INDEPENDENCE SUPPORTERS NOT exclusively snp members, WHY are non snp members but donors having to wait for justice

  73. London Scott

    Lenny Hartley says:
    29 May, 2023 at 5:43 pm
    It should be noted that Craig Murray in his submission to the UN , states that Sturgeon has already been interviewed by the Police in this matter.

    There was that mystery trip with two people a few weeks ago when she was driven from home to a mystery destination. Were they the Polis?

    Given that she was one of the 3 responsible officers who signed off the accounts, and was even in the interregnum between Chapman resigning and Beattie being re-appointed, the party treasurer it beggars belief that she was not aware of and indeed and active participant in whet was happening. Indeed she had a legal and fiduciary duty to be aware and ask questions and cannot play the “Aah, I am a fluffy brained wee lass and just signed the accounts because my husband told me so.”

    As somewhat who worked in procurement I am interested in what procedures were in place at SNP HQ for ordering goods and services. If I wanted to place a purchase order I had to produce a numbered order which went onto the accounts system. (New suppliers we had to do credit and other checks on – and have them signed off as a supplier by a Director.) I could authorise stuff up to £200, between that and £5,000 my boss had to sign the order, over that amount the boss and a Director – I would be grilled on large value orders. When goods came into the warehouse they were checked and against the Despatch Note and Purchase Order by warehouse staff and their manager. The invoice would be sent to the Accounts Dept, who would forward it to me for payment approval. I would have to supply the order and delivery details – and again if high value get the invoice counter signed by senior colleagues before it was paid.

    So we are talking about 2 levels of staff in procurement, 2 in the warehouse, book keepers and clerks in the Accounts Dept and Company Directors, all aware of what had been purchased. Everything logged on a computer system – even 40 years ago.

    How can only 2 or 3 people be aware of the purchase of the motorhome and other items? Did they not have systems in place, book keeping staff etc? The Auditors did refer to the high number of manual book entries. One can only conclude that the SNP was being run as some mafia enterprise with official computer and unofficial paper entries.

  74. James Che


    Scottish criminal Cases review Commission.
    Web WWW. SCCRC. Co . UK.

    Judicial Appointments board for Scotland, recommendations for appointment to the first minister.
    The successful applicant will be contacted by the Lord president including under Royal Warrant, and is forwarded to the Palace, And announced by HM after they have signed the Royal Warrant of appointment.

    There is the Crown in Scots law.

  75. Chic McGregor

    Just listening to Ali Minaj on LBC it was quite interesting.
    The main story was the latest sleaze allegations, small beer in financial terms, it was to do with MPs claiming on expenses for parking fines.
    However the more major aspect of it was how it was yet again, glaringly indicative of how elected representatives consider themselves to be entitled to ignore the normal rules which the rest of us feel are right and proper to obey.

    There were 3 Tory MPs (no surprise there) but unfortunately and dissappointingly my own MP in Angus whose name or party was fortunately not aired on the programme was a fourth culprit.

    But the interesting thing was two of the phone ins. The first, whose name I don’t remember, was obviously someone with experience of Westminster. His robustly put line was that Ali Minaj should not be pointing fingers because if he had been successful when he was a candidate he also would have changed out of all recognition within a year of being exposed to the rarified atmosphere of Westminster. Ali Minaj refuted that saying he knows lots of MPs who remain dedicated public servants and honest in their claims.

    However a couple of calls later, another caller made, much more politely, the same point.

    It set me wondering, how real an effect is that? Is it almost a given that MPs will become seduced by the entrenched ‘culture’ of Westminster?

    If so, it might explain a lot about the current state of the SNP.


  76. Iain mhor

    I’m going with the the MC Hammer directive:
    U can’t touch this.

    “It’s always a dame” Marlowe sighed; he almost had a watertight case, but had already been up against City Hall, and the SG’s office was riding him hard “We don’t want no rooftop showdown Marlowe, just finger Flatfoot Sam, and walk away”

    Marlowe sat in his dingy, downtown office, sulking. They were always looking for some patsy to take the fall, but Marlowe was damned if he was going to be under him when he landed.

    “That kinda papework don’t come cheap, or easy, and some of the boys will want their cut, or they’ll start singing” he worried “This will take more than the word of a two- bit stoolie, that dame is high class”

    He was reaching reflexively for the bottle he kept in the bottom drawer, when his eyes lit on an unmarked envelope lying on the dirty, and decrepit parquet floor.
    “Must have dropped from the pile of the usual” he mused. Sweeping unopened rent demands, and dry cleaning bills from his coffee stained, cherrywood desk, he proceeded to tear the mysterious envelope with the edge of nicotine stained finger.

    “Damn!” he exclaimed “The goddam L.A Noir! I’d recognise that tortured cursive anywhere – why is it always the dames?” He scanned the missive with a practiced eye, it was all here, laid out in precise detail.

    “This will cost more than a months rent to pull together, but it could be done” he admitted, then chuckled wryly “Damn it’s fiendish! Gotta hand it to the dames, they aint just angels with pretty faces, they’re devils with dragnets when they’re after new boots, and panties”

    He squinted again at the letter, something caught his eye “Well, well! If that aint the icing on the donut!” he exclaimed, as he held the now greasy manilla, to the grimy, fly-specked window of his low rent office – the only honest light in his dim life.

    It was there, barely legible, but it was still there! Marlowe’s fingers, still oily from cleaning his snub-nose 38, after a particularly awkward meeting with his hedge fund manager, had rendered the letter translucent at the corner.

    As Marlowe squinted, the sad, sodium glow of the streetlamp outside, insinuated itself into the gloom of his garret, revealing the faint sigil of a crown, and not just any crown.
    “He better remember this!” spat Marlowe, “It’s in his goddamm title, and I’ll damn sure make him remember!”

    Marlowe, closed the broken blinds viciously, shoved the letter deep in the pocket of his battered trenchcoat, patted the friendly bulge at his hip, and locking the door of his office one final time, headed out into the cleansing rain, and the cloaking night.

  77. Alf Baird

    Chas @ 5:37 pm

    “Baird’s monotonous ‘colonialism’ crap”

    How would you explain the relationship between England and Scotland?

  78. Northcode

    @Iain mhor 6:44pm

    I’m liking the style of your comment there, Iain. 🙂

  79. James Jones

    James Che at 6:10 pm.
    “That does not alter the legal position of Scotland and Scots having been omitted from the treaty of union since 1707.”

    I don’t think it means what you think it means. You should take it to an expert. Did Scots make the same claim as you in 1707? Has the matter been raised by lawyers or historians? Why has no one raised it in either Parliament? The idea hasn’t had any support from here as far as I can tell, certainly not in terms of advancing the independence movement in 2023. You’re a lone voice and there must be a reason for that. Could it be that you’re wrong?

  80. Xaracen

    James Che, we are still in the Treaty of Union because despite the many breaches of its terms by Westminster and the English establishment that runs it, we the sovereign Scots have not yet taken and declared any formal decision to tell the English partner of the Union that the Union is over because of those breaches. Until we do that, the Treaty is still formally in effect.

    There have been many more breaches than the vast majority of Scots have ever heard of, because the English establishment has spent centuries gaslighting the Scots about Westminster’s rights and authority in the Union that it says Scotland agreed to, and have taken many liberties they were never entitled to.

    One of my hobby horses is that much of Westminster’s UK legislation is fundamentally fraudulent because it assumes that England’s MPs can pass UK legislation on their own without requiring the approval of the Scotland’s MPs. Given that there are two sovereign partners in the Union, this asymmetry is unwarranted, unjustifiable, and unacceptable, and any such legislation is ultra vires since Union legislation requires Union approval, and England’s MPs on their own cannot and do not represent the Union, they can only represent the English partner in the Union. The same argument also applies to the Scot MPs.

    On top of that, both partners are fully sovereign equals, so neither has any right to overrule the other, nor the other’s MPs, even with a majority vote, unless the Treaty explicitly permitted it, at least for some matters. Of course, the Treaty does not.

    Westminster’s governance has been abusive and unlawful, and has breached the terms of the Treaty on many occasions, denied the sovereignty of Scotland as often, denied the authority, and even existence, of Scotland’s constitution, and treated Scotland’s territory and its many resources as its own, despite clear legal distinctions between the two kingdoms land ownership systems.

    All of those things are clearly more than sufficient to warrant the Scots tossing the Treaty in the bin and torching it, and sue the English establishment for compensation and reparations, and the return of all the wealth and territory it has unlawfully hijacked. But we haven’t done that, and nothing will change until we do.

  81. A Scot Abroad

    James Che,

    if you are so convinced about your assertions about Scotland’s constitition, the “fact” that Queen Anne dissolved both the Scottish parliament and the Treaty of Union, etc with all of the other ancient guff that you spout, why don’t you take it to an Advocate and get her or him to take a case to the Court of Session? Because just merely posting your assertions endlessly on WoS doesn’t really move the needle. And I haven’t noticed anybody else in Scottish public life making any of your points.

  82. Andrew scott

    Does James Che have a life other than boring us senseless?
    Asking for ALL of us

  83. James Che

    Sneaky crown in the Westminster devolved government to Scotland, through the back door to Scots laws by appointment of the Crown.

    The Crown is recognised as a Corporation.
    State- owned Enterprise (SOE) is a government entity which was established/nationalised in order to earn profit,
    The national Government has a majority ownership, They are also known as Public Sector undertakings in some countries,
    Wether municipally owned corporations and enterprises held by regional public bodies are considered state-owned, since governments can also own regular stock,
    The term enterprise is challenged as it implies Statues in private law, and so the term “Corporation ” is frequently used instead, and often uses the term ” Crown Corporation” or Crown Entity” Ministers of the Crown ) often control the shares in them,
    ( ie) stocks Scotland Act:
    The act of of a government part of Bureaucracy into a SOE is called Corporization,
    Hence many of the Council or other public services are Corporations controlled by government under the Crown,
    The Crown Corporation and the Crown Entity are for profit,
    The Crown Estates is a Corporation.
    The Bank of England is a corporation,
    Most of the government are a Corporation.

    The Crown in Scotland and interfering in Scots laws through appointment to a Devolved Scottish Government, which also is a Corporation is Colonialism at its best.

  84. Andrew scott

    @james che

  85. James Che

    Alf ,Baird,

    How do you explain the relationship with Scotland and England,

    Indeed, no treaty and no authority other than Colonisation of Scotland.

  86. James Che

    Andrew Scott,

    Ha ha haa,

    The Whites of your eyes are showing when you roll them.

    Fear from the other side for a change.

  87. Johnlm

    Although it is claimed that the Cestui Qui Vie Act of 1666 is no longer extant, it seems to be the basis of all the Laws enacted subsequently.

  88. A Scot Abroad


    you seem to confuse a treaty (a rather over-taken by events treaty, at that) with democracy. Democracy wins, every time.

    There’s nothing to stop the Westminster parliament from passing a law to the effect that the ancient guff about Scotland is irrelevant. Given the endless droning on about the ancient guff on WoS, some bright spark MP might actually step up to propose that as a bill. I think it’s merely out of concern for James Che’s mental health that they haven’t yet done so.

  89. James Che


    We are not still in the treaty of union due to breaches that may or may not have been done by Westminster later on.

    We are not in the treaty of union from the very beginning due to the Westminster parliament and Queen Anne dissolving and Extinguishing Scotlands parliament out of the treaty of union therefore dissolving and extinguishing the very treaty between Scotland and England.

    The breaches / errors that Westminster made later may be added if the treaty of union had concluded, that two parliaments joined together to create the British parliament.
    But as we see that did not happen.
    One was dissolved and extinguished while there is ample evidencethat the other continued.

    There was no union of parliament.

    It is the very beginning that is of the upmost importance to Scotland not what came afterwards.
    The union failed legally.
    We are left with nothing more than a concept,

  90. JimuckMac

    Whatever happened to the Ann Gloag proceedings? Has there been a date for trial yet?

  91. Northcode

    @James Che

    I’m reading your posts, James. So as far as I’m concerned you can keep them coming

    If you start to bore me I’ll use a little known technical skill called ‘scrolling’.

    In my book all, reasonably expressed, views are welcome. And I’ll make up my own mind as to whether I agree with them or not.

    And if I don’t, I’ll say why I don’t – if I can be bothered.

    I wouldn’t just say someone is talking rubbish and leave it hanging.

    That’s no counter-argument at all.

  92. John Main

    @Xaracen says:29 May, 2023 at 7:03 pm

    One of my hobby horses is that much of Westminster’s UK legislation is fundamentally fraudulent because it assumes that England’s MPs can pass UK legislation on their own without requiring the approval of the Scotland’s MPs

    Good point.

    Now what about this one?

    A WM party, commanding an overall majority, but only because it has, say 50-odd Scottish MPs, passing legislation that affects England?

    I am not seeing how this is much different TBQH. So, can the English sue Scotland for those occasions (and there have been many, particularly under Labour WM administrations) when it was Scottish MPs that granted the overall majority for policies that had a minority of support among English MPs.

  93. Dorothy Devine

    Well said Northcode.It seems there are those incapable of scrolling past because they have the concentration of a goldfish or are just having a wee tantrum to distract from debate and discussion.

  94. James Jones

    Dorothy Devine at 8:24 pm
    “Well said Northcode.It seems there are those incapable of scrolling past because they have the concentration of a goldfish or are just having a wee tantrum to distract from debate and discussion.”

    Actually, just scrolling past would be to avoid debate and discussion, wouldn’t it.

  95. Charles (not the R one)

    James Che says:
    29 May, 2023 at 7:21 pm

    Alf ,Baird,

    How do you explain the relationship with Scotland and England,

    Indeed, no treaty and no authority other than Colonisation of Scotland.

    James Che, you can ignore this contribution because, you unique among the population of Scotland, know you are right.

    If history from 320 years ago matters, then the rest of “Wings” followers might like to remind themselves (as I just did) of the reasons WHY at that time, those running Scotland decided that union with England was AT THAT TIME about the only available way to alleviate the catastrophic mess that Scotland was in, especially financially. The DARIEN SCHEME had wasted (lost forever)about 20% of the total wealth of Scotland, right down to household level. No country could survive that, and the other circumstances of the international politics of the time did nothing to help Scotland.

    Moreover, England was pretty fed up with centuries of wars with the Scots, and so all in all, the Union took place. The terms at the time were quite favourable to the Scots. Apart from the Jacobite rebellions 1715 and 1745, there were no more home-grown wars on British soil.

    And just in case anyone suggests the Jacobites wanted Scottish independence restored, nothing could be further from the truth. Just as a matter of historical interest the Jacobites had no quarrel with the Union. Their objective was not separation, but to replace the Stewart dynasty on the throne of the UNITED Kingdom.

    But it was all 300 years ago . . . sigh . . .

    The question is, what are we going to do for our Country tomorrow?

  96. Andrew scott

    jmes che will kill this blog
    Com-on stu do something

  97. Charles (not the R one)

    John Main writes
    “A WM party, commanding an overall majority, but only because it has, say 50-odd Scottish MPs, passing legislation that affects England?”

    My recollection is that there was an ‘understanding’ at Westminster, whereby Scottish MPs didn’t vote on issues that affected only England. This was known as “The West Lothian Question”.

    Perhaps someone can remind us of the current status of this.

    Someone will know

  98. John Main

    Innarestin article by Irvine Welsh on Unherd: The Betrayal Of White, Working-Class Men. Here’s a wee quote:

    The biggest indictment you can offer our current dystopia is that we’ve created a society where the old pity the young. That’s just not right

    That certainly rang true for me.

    Mixed reviews BTL. For some reason, a lot of posters take exception to all the fucking swearing.

    Myself, I don’t see the fucking problem.

  99. James Che

    North Code

    That is refreshing commentary from some who’s intellect is high on my list along a few others.

    It can become slightly boring though having to keep repeating it for a good while now, however all that is required is for people to have the same attitude as your self of a enquiring open mind to go check it out for themselves,

    And if they find the records wanting then to come back with a sound arguement for disagreeing,

    No one has yet,

    My schooling years was appalling and abusive, so I skipped many subjects, like others I was also strapped for not Speaking the Majesties English just to add to the mix,

    So I sat reading books as much as possible to catch up,
    if someone as semi illiterate as myself with a enquiring mind can find this information on parliament sites and in historical records
    It begger’s believe that well educated people many whom went on to university do not want to learn or know about history in its context,

    It there theybhave a choice to learn,
    Thanks for your support and willing to learn, then make a judgement for yourself

  100. John Main

    @ Charles (not the R one) says:29 May, 2023 at 9:16 pm

    My understanding of “The West Lothian Question” is that it is the opposite to what you write.

    It is English MPs unable to vote on matters affecting Scotland (because of devolution). But Scottish MPs continuing to vote on matters affecting England in WM.

    But you need to read my post again. I wrote say 50-odd Scottish MPs, passing legislation that affects England

    I didn’t write legislation that affects ONLY England.

    [Maybes I need to write better]

    I meant a WM majority, where numerically, that majority exists because of a tranche of Scottish WM MPs, passing UK legislation, although the majority of English MPs are opposed.

    That has happened in the past, under Labour, back in the day when Scots unthinkingly voted Labour, and before recent times, when Scots unthinkingly vote SNP.

  101. Alf Baird

    James Che @ 7:15 pm

    “The Crown in Scotland and interfering in Scots laws through appointment to a Devolved Scottish Government, which also is a Corporation is Colonialism at its best.”

    Yes, the movement are gradually figuring out that independence means decolonization; this is obscured because a colonial society is a calcified and Manichean world, ‘a people’ existing between ‘two psychical and cultural realms’.

  102. Iain mhor

    @Northcode 6:55pm

    Cheers, just something daft to lift the mood.

  103. James Che

    Charles ( not the R one)

    As you point out historical records matter.
    However selective historical records lead you down a very different path to reality.

    The union did not proceed as you claim,

    Please read up on further records to finish your sentence.
    The union was extinguished due to Westminster extinguishing the Scottish parliament from the treaty with the England parliament in 1707.
    And Queen Anne then dissolved the Scottish parliament in England by proclamation.

    Since both those acts took place in Westminster in 1707 there has been no Scottish parliament or representatives of the Scottish parliament able to sit in Westminster parliament.
    As it ( Scotlands Parliament) Being extinguished and dissolved.

    This leaves only Westminster parliament as the British parliament by self proclamation.

    There can be no parliamentary treaty of union between a extinguished 1707;Scottish parliament and the English Westminster parliament.
    Only one parliament proceeded forward.

    The concept of a possible union in 1707 between the two Countries is all that remains,
    As many point out here time and again the monarch is not Sovereign in Scotland, the Scots are.
    What the monarch did in 1707 actually helps us,
    As she only dissolved the Scottish parliament from the treaty of union, she did not have the Sovereignty to close the Scottish parliament in Scotland.
    And did not do so, it was Sine Die’d in Scotland.

  104. James Che

    Historical records in there context still matter today to Westminster more than Scotland, as it is Westminster that harks back time and again to protect a union it self dismantled,

    But non the less, has it as a “reserved matter” in the Scotland act,

    So history goes as far back as Westminster wants it to go,
    It does not want the Scots to go far that far back, as to when Westminster extinguished and dissolved the union with Scotland.

    It likes to make history up for Scots, then ignores the records wrote down in their own parliament,
    And then just for a laugh tells everyone including the rest of the world, on its own parliament site Westminster extinguished the Scottish parliament from the treaty in 1707.

  105. A Scot Abroad

    Alf Baird,

    still banging on uselessly about Scotland being a colony? That’s A grade muppetry, and the farthest thing from the truth. Scots have had, and taken, endless opportunities to make fame and fortune around the world because of the 1707 union. It’s only the miserable incompetents who sat back in Scotland and bred a nation of whining offspring that perpetuate your total tosh about Scotland being a colony.

  106. James Jones

    James Che, how do you propose the independence movement should use this revelation, if at all?

  107. James Che

    Alf Baird.

    Eloquently said,

    We are between two realms of reality at the moment in more ways than one,

    It took many repeated efforts on STU’s part to awaken us to the SNP,

    I hope To have his tenacity to keep going until many others open their eyes to reality and start questioning what Scotlands legal position is,

    As you say, at the moment I can only see Scotland under Colonisation, for I cannot find a extinguished Scottish parliament in the treaty of union,
    Perhaps Scotland is the ultimate flag of Colonisation that could be found and put before the world. The UN, the EU, and all the other nations,
    For we (Scotland) do not even hold a treaty for them do not abide by.

  108. Northcode

    @Iain mhor 9:58pm

    Not daft. Smart.

    Using the perfect story to make your point was a slick move.

    Exactly the way a smooth talking private detective would make theirs. 🙂

    And it lifted my mood at the same time. Clever stuff, Iain.

  109. James Che

    Scot Abroad.

    Please provide prove evidence there was a parliamentary union that proceeded and therefore the union of two realms,

    While taking note the Scots are sovereign in Scotland, not the Monarch.
    Monarch of England, monarch of Scots! For as long as Scots agree to have that monarch,
    And the monarch is not Monarch of the territory of Scotland.

  110. Xaracen

    John Main said;
    “A WM party, commanding an overall majority, but only because it has, say 50-odd Scottish MPs, passing legislation that affects England?

    I am not seeing how this is much different TBQH.”

    You are missing the point, I think; a Union majority requires a majority from its English MPs and a separate majority from its Scottish MPs, meaning that both of the Union’s two partners have agreed to pass the legislation. If one Union partner disagrees, the other Union partner will just have to lump it, even if he has an overall majority, because 1, on his own he doesn’t represent the Union, he just represents one half of it, and 2, he has no actual authority over the other partner, and therefore has no authority over the other partner’s MPs.

    The fact that both Treaty Principals are also fully and equally sovereign makes the distinction between the two bodies of MPs explicit and absolute.

    Your scenario is not different, it is just as bad as my scenario for precisely the same reasons. Given the huge disparity in MP numbers though, the Scots get by far the worst of the majoritarian abuse in that place.

    Westminster’s internal voting system has to be properly reformed to require dual majority voting, on Scotland/England lines.

  111. James Che

    Say it on the banners, say it at marches tweet it , facebook it, sing it,
    independence where politicians in Scotland have failed us,
    Encourage others to look at the textual recorded history on The UK’s own parliament site.
    And in historical accounts.
    Have a plan, know where were going, and your background, So..many unionist tell us Scots have no plan, we are too wer, too stupid,
    What they mean is Scottish politicians have no plan, they deliberately have no plan. It is called stalling and preventing.

    It was not Scotland that ended the treaty of union,
    It was England’s Westminster parliament.

  112. Beauvais

    Maybe it’s really called Operation Blankform.

    You know, as in empty charge sheet.

  113. A Scot Abroad

    James Che,

    I don’t need to provide evidence of anything. You are the complainer, endlessly bumping your gums about stuff that you don’t really understand, and frankly, nobody else seems to be interested in during the last 317 years. So I’d suggest that you either scurry away to a hide-hole and keep quiet, or take your wild claims to the court of Session and see how roughly handled they are. Take about £250,000 with you, as that’s what the Advocate will charge for their services, and another £250,000 to pay off the Crown for their successful defence.

  114. rob

    James Che says:
    29 May, 2023 at 11:09 pm
    Say it on the banners, say it at marches tweet it , facebook it, sing it,
    independence where politicians in Scotland have failed us,
    Encourage others to look at the textual recorded history on The UK’s own parliament site.

    Perhaps if you leave a link to the above site, it will encourage others to go check the facts.

  115. James Che

    Tomorrow I will leave free from posting here to give the union minded people a rest, from having to defend their position without evidence.

    And a chance for independent supporters to have a opportunity to check the records, that extinguished Scotland from the treaty of union.
    I have a full day planned emptying the loft, weeding the drive and general gardening, and a walk in the countryside later on,

    I am sure many of us would occasionally enjoy a few updates on Stu’s photos on the wildlife around his area, I miss those, no offence taken Stu if you are too occupied nowadays with the stupidity and corruption of politics,
    But I do miss them, being from the Country myself.

  116. Ricky

    Yoons move in mysterious circles.

  117. Shug

    Given how the chief constable has branded all police racists it could be a short time before one who heard the order “get Salmond” turns some light on the orders perfectly honest police were given to pervert the course of justice in the tone and nature of their investigation.

    The bobbies know what the great racist leader did

  118. James Jones

    There hasn’t been an English Parliament since the same time though.

    Why did it take 300 years of complicity before someone decided that wasn’t how it was supposed to work, and doesn’t that complicity trump any subsequent interpretation of the treaty?

  119. Ron Clark

    A scot abroad.

    Who decided that you are judge and jury?

  120. Northcode

    @James Che 9:32pm

    Thanks for the compliment, James

    But you are being too hard on yourself.

    Your comments raise important questions. Questions I might never have asked myself if not for your posts and the posts of others on here.

    I mean, you knew Scotland was a colony long before I came to that realisation.

    The way the message is delivered is unimportant as long as the message is clear, and I’ve never had a problem comprehending the points and arguments you make in your comments.

    Education is not an indication of intelligence. And if you can read you can educate yourself.

    There are many many folk who’ve received a very good education, and their intelligence is lacking to say the least.

    Let’s take a quick look at some of those folk:

    Sturgeon (crafty but thick)
    Yousaf (just plain thick)
    Wishart (IQ off the charts. Just in the wrong direction)
    Blackford (greedy, crafty and thick)
    Cole-Hamilton ( IQ score = WTAF. How can this walk and talk at the same time?)
    …and on and on and on this list could go.

    You could probably stick most of the ‘Scottish Government’ on that list, and many more who head up Scotland’s institutions.

    Your education might have suffered due to circumstances beyond your control, but that is an entirely different thing from intelligence.

  121. Ron Clark

    James Che

    Just keep posting.

    Don’t let these bastards win.

  122. James Che

    Scot Abroad.
    Just a few days ago you were preaching on here there was no union since 1707.

    People can go back and check you know,

  123. Ron Clark

    James Che

    Instead of cutting back on your posts,,,the best thing to do is INCREASE the number of posts you normally send on to Wings.

    Fuck the badtards.

    Fuck these self appointed site policemen.

  124. Anton Decadent

    There seems to a be a swathe of people unhappy that other people are allowed to post comments BTL here. Painting acceptable public debate into a corner is how the likes of the SNP operate. Australia is looking to introduce laws making people sign in online with personal details and no anonymity whilst at the same time introducing laws making it illegal to refer to a man as a man if they are in the process of stealing womens sporting trophies etc. Expect the same here as this is all across the West.

    I do not read all of the posts here but they should be allowed to be posted. What was also apparent last week was that some of those unhappy about other people being allowed to post were the ones who had nothing much more than personal abuse of other posters to offer. These bullies have become too used to having everything their own way via smear, public shaming and threats.

  125. Ron Clark

    The National

    SNP reveal plan for monthly days of action to boost party support.

    The SNP are asking branches to launch a nationwide campaign.

    The SNP are asking branches to launch a nationwide campaign.
    THE SNP are planning monthly days of action to boost party support, beginning in June.

    The party have asked local branches to start a national campaign to help “hard-working activists” share the SNP’s “positive vision for Scotland”.

    The days will focus on party political messaging – not solely independence, as some members believed at first.

    The first National Campaign Day is to be held on Saturday, June 3, which is just three weeks before the party’s independence convention.

    It is understood after June 3, the campaign days will take place on the first Saturday of the month.

    This coincides with the umbrella organisation of grassroots independence activists, Believe in Scotland, announcing Saturday summer campaign days on July 1 and August 12.

    Jen Layden, the SNP’s organisation convener, said: “As the largest party in Scotland by far, the SNP has many hard-working activists out delivering our positive vision for Scotland’s future on a regular basis.

    “To support their efforts, we recently agreed that the first Saturday of each month will be a National Day of Action. This will support members and activists to continue taking the SNP’s positive and ambitious vision for the future to doorsteps across the country.

    “With people across Scotland being failed by the broken Westminster system and two pro-Brexit parties fighting for the keys to 10 Downing Street, the SNP are the only party offering real change with independence so we can get rid of Tory governments for good.”

    It is unclear whether this is the announcement the First Minister pledged to make on “a summer of independence campaign”.

    Humza Yousaf previously wrote exclusively in the Sunday National: “During the SNP leadership campaign, I vowed to set up regional assemblies across Scotland to bring together and harness the energy of our members to discuss how we cross the line and win independence.

    “The SNP team are working hard to organise and schedule our regional assemblies, and I will make an announcement shortly on a summer of independence campaign activity, so we take our positive message to every corner of the country.”

  126. Northcode

    A lassie is playing a game of cards, for money – big money.

    She’s wearing a pretty red dress and she’s not having much luck. In fact, she’s losing again and again and she’s running low on cash.

    She asks the other folk in the game if anyone will lend her a thousand quid.

    Some bloke says, “I admire yer courage, Miss…”

    Trench, she replies grumpily.

    And then, looking up from her cards and seeing the guy who spoke to her is a bonnie big lad, she adds her first name: “Sylvia Trench”

    Then, clearly a wee bit miffed at his cheek, she goes on to say: “I admire your luck, Mr…”

    For the first time the camera cuts to the bonnie big lad, who, still poking a wee bit fun at her, replies: “Bond, James Bond”

    And that’s how the legendary Mr Bond was introduced to cinema-goers for the very first time in 1962.

    It’s a flirtation where each mimics the other’s sentences, until inevitably she goes back to Bond’s apartment, undresses, and has a putt on the carpet.

    And no. It is not a euphemism. She actually plays a bit of golf – on the carpet.

    It was never meant to be a great line, but the American Film Institute rates it as the 22nd greatest line in all cinema history.

    This is, if you think about it, a wee bit odd. The content of the line is…well…that his name is James Bond.

    James Bond is a boring, boring name. A name deliberately chosen to be boring, Ian Fleming said so himself.

    So in summary, one of the greatest lines in the history of cinema is a man saying his name, a name deliberately designed to be dull.

    If he had said “My name is Mr. James Bond,” or “Bond, but you can call me James,” or “James Bond”, would it have been remembered?

    Probably not. But here again the ancients come to the rescue.

    Diacope (pronounced die-ACK-oh-pee) is a verbal sandwich where a word or phrase is repeated after a brief pause.

    You take two Bonds and stick James in the middle. Boom! You have a memorable line.

    Crisis? What Crisis? was the title of a Supertramp album released in 1975 (possibly lifted from ‘The Day of the Jackal’).

    And then nicked by ‘The Sun’ newspaper in 1979 when it had a go at James Callaghan during the ‘winter of discontent’ .

    Or if you’re a Mafia boss you might say: “It was you, Fredo, I know it was you”

    Or like the Trammps did in 1976, you can can create a disco inferno with the lyrics burn, baby, burn.

    In the Wizard of Oz, the Wicked Witch of the West cries: “Fly, my pretties, fly!”

    Except she doesn’t.

    In the film the flying monkeys are told to “Fly! Fly! Fly! Fly!” and there is not even a whisper of ‘pretties’ to be heard.

    So why does everybody remember her saying it?

    There is plenty of Diacope around in the film. There’s “run, Toto, run!” and “I’m frightened, Auntie Em, I’m frightened!”

    Diacope is powerful, so powerful that it seeped into other lines in the movie and into our memories. And the witch’s ‘pretties’ line was born out of pure thin…well, Diacope.

    Diacope can take on a life of it’s own. And it doesn’t matter whether you intend to deploy it or not.

    Because you will, dear reader, you will.

  127. Kcor

    “She is in fact the prime suspect and the investigating team want to make sure they have a comprehensive dossier at their fingertips before they question her”

    They sure will have a comprehensive dossier – after she has died, whenever that be.

  128. Stoker

    No comment! I’ll bet that’s getting said a lot, especially by Murrell and Sturgeon. Leading to no case, nothing to see here, folks…OH LOOK! THERE’S A HUGE TORY SQUIRREL.

  129. John Main

    American Film Institute?

    Shurely shome mishtake. American Movie Institute seems so much more likely.

    Confused. So confused.

  130. John Main

    @Ron Clark says:30 May, 2023 at 12:38 am

    I vowed to set up regional assemblies

    That’s two vows then.

    The first was to eradicate poverty. How’s that going then? Anybody seen any results from that? Anything?


    On Saturday, my local food bank seemed to be as busy as ever. That’s anecdotal though – discount that.

    Tell you what though, the two vows do show some signs of joined up thinking. Get the regional assemblies up and running, get the vote out, return the same old, same old to HR and WM, and thus eradicate poverty for the gormless troughers for another 5 years.


    But not for Scotland, obvs.

  131. Luigi

    Ron Clark says:
    30 May, 2023 at 12:38 am
    The National

    SNP reveal plan for monthly days of action to boost party support.

    The SNP are asking branches to launch a nationwide campaign.

    Campaign? Campaign for what? Five more years of Guff and Gravy?

    No thanks.

  132. John Main

    Anybody interested in iScotland’s future economy and currency could benefit from reading today’s innarestin Unherd article: America Will Never Go Bankrupt.

    Here’s a wee quote:

    “instruct the Federal Reserve to create a coin worth $1 trillion, and then deposit it with the Fed, thus adding $1 trillion to the Treasury’s account at the central bank. The government could then draw on this account to pay its bills without having to issue new debt”

    The article shows just what can be achieved if a sovereign state controls its own currency.

    Spoiler alert: anybody convinced of the coming BRICS age and wishing to maintain their delusions intact should give the article a miss.

  133. Northcode

    Not bad, @John Main (7:18am), not bad at all.

  134. Ottomanboi

    An iScotland might join BRICS and get them to come up with an original idea.
    Currently it shadows the US in predictable «neo liberal» economic policies, as for that democracy thingy, you take pot luck.
    Also, minorities be very, very cautious.
    Its working language is American English, so what does that tell you?

  135. Tom

    Yes, the SNP are finished.

    The final stages of the death of a political party who had so much power is the infighting and back biting.

  136. dasBlimp

    James Che is an English troll and posts here to disrupt our posts on Scottish independence. Ignore him.

  137. Chas

    Alf Baird

    ‘How would you explain the relationship between England and Scotland?’

    The ‘relationship’ is what it is. I suspect it will mean different things to different people. I cannot answer for all of them. Neither can you but it does not stop you giving your boring version of it constantly. Adding quotes from individuals giving their ‘take’ does not impress me one iota. Neither does the use of some Scottish vernacular in a failed attempt to show that you really are ‘a man of the people’. It smacks of ‘I am more intelligent than you’ but will converse in a manner that you may understand. You are of course, entitled to your opinion, as am I.

    The relationship between Scotland and England will undoubtedly change dramatically if Independence is ever achieved. For this to happen Scotland will need honest, competent Politicians who can project and convince the electorate how things could be better in their daily lives. I may be missing something but where are the raft of Politicians with these qualities? Two or three will simply not cut it.

    Too wee-No
    Too poor-the jury is out
    Too stupid-Well we keep voting the SNP in.

    Scotland, as a country, has significant resources. Unfortunately the majority of these resources are currently not ‘owned’ by the country. Desperate Dan periodically copies and pastes lists which actually reveals the exact opposite of what he is attempting to portray.

    If you look at the bigger picture, Scotland is struggling. 70% of the electorate are blissfully unaware, do not care or are simply too busy getting on with their daily lives. Colonialism and 300 year old guff does not register with the majority and probably never will apart from a fleeting thought.

    By all means keep posting the same tired, repetitive stuff but expect more and more people to simply scroll past. Excluding your new found fan and the stalwart members of the BPHB.

    It is going to be a lovely day. Get some sun and fresh air everybody.

  138. Ron Clark

    DasBlimp is an English troll and posts here to disrupt our posts on Scottish independence. Ignore him.

  139. Chas

    To Rev Stu

    I understand that there is list of banned words? The use of which will cause any post to go into moderation and will never appear in the comments.

    Can I respectfully suggest that the word ‘colonialism’ and any reference to 1707, or any date prior to 1900 are added to the list. The word ‘Che’ is maybe going a step too far.

    I do however appreciate that it is your blog, your rules, and you are the one and only arbiter

  140. Ron Clark

    Too many site Polis.

    James Che,

    I hope you increase your daily quota of posts today.

  141. Tom

    The SNP no more.

    As the Proclaimers once said.

  142. Ron Clark

    Chas is an English troll and posts here to disrupt our posts on Scottish independence. Ignore him.

  143. Stephen O'Brien

    SNP to ‘harness energy’ by monthly day of action.. The rest of the month, bloated?

    A leech harnesses energy from it’s host. The Scottish electorate is already sucked dry!

    It’s only a matter of time, until Holyrood’s closure is triggered by stay at home, ashen faced Scots. Anaemia should never be ignored.

  144. bobo bunny

    Have the SNP published their accounts yet?

    Tick tock.

    Cant be long now…

  145. Stuart MacKay

    Clutching Victory from the Jaws of Defeat, Bella Caledonia,

    The British Progressives still hope to carve out a niche for their vision in Scotland. Now that their SNP chapter is being pushed to the sidelines we are seeing support for independence rising. That says that all the devolutionist parties are heading for irrelevance and something else is going to take it’s place.

    Not sure if that’s really true, but it is interesting and it does indicate that there’s a way out of this morass of inaction and incompetence.

  146. Chas

    Ron Clark

    According to you. Any one who does not agree with your rather simplistic views must be a Unionist troll.

    No wonder Scotland is in the mess that we currently find ourselves. Too many who simply think that ‘it will all be fine’ if Independence is ever achieved sometime in the distant future.

    What’s the plan Ron?

  147. John Main

    @Chas says:30 May, 2023 at 9:14 am

    Something I find quite gob-smacking is that last week’s revelation of the stupendous UK immigration figures has raised not one comment on here.

    Until this one, obvs.

    Look at those numbers. 606,000 net, 1,163,000 gross, in just one year.

    Even if you believe that Scotland’s share of the UK total is pro-rata (I don’t, I think it’s higher), is this acceptable or sustainable?

    How many of these New Scots favour Indy? How many of the Old English New Scots the immigrants displace from England into Scotland favour Indy?

    How many Soft No’s have to be convinced to Yes each and every year, just to balance out the steady influx of New Scots?

  148. sam

    This is what the Union gives:communities broken by deindustrialisation,globalisation, austerity and economic mismanagement: food insecurity: precarious work: low wages: rising inequality: rising poverty: rising homelessness: increasing poor health: shorter life expectancy:suicides-“deaths of despair”:burnt out health services: long waiting times for health treatments: privatising public assets for private greed: PFI: industrial scale moneylaundering:cronyism and corruption in governments.

  149. Stephen O'Brien

    If Alister Jack or his successor, make the decision, Devolution and Holyrood is proven failure, that would be a monumental day, for the arrival of Scottish independence.

    Do your worst, Mr Jack.

  150. Stephen O'Brien

    Plan B. To prove Devolution and Holyrood is an unmitigated failure. Hat’s off to SNP!

    8×4 sheets of plywood, on the way from London! Final Board meeting, can’t come soon enough!

  151. Ron Clark

    Chas aka “The site Polis “.

    If you check back, you will see my post to you was a copy and paste from “dasBlimp”.

    Do try to keep up.

  152. chic.mcgregor

    @John Main
    “Even if you believe that Scotland’s share of the UK total is pro-rata (I don’t, I think it’s higher), is this acceptable or sustainable?”

    Scotland yes England no. England is already not sustainable, simply too many people.

    Take China which had a 1 child per family policy for decades because of overpopulation.
    If China had the same population density as England it would have over 4 billion people.

    If France had the same population density as England it would be over 200 million.

  153. Ron Clark

    Cmon James Che,

    Get posting.

    The resident Trolls don’t seem to like them.

  154. Anton Decadent

    WINGS ahead of the game as usual, from todays Herald.

  155. Tom

    Which will come first, a human landing on Mars, or Scottish independence?

  156. Ricky

    The SNP are going the way of Scottish Labour.

  157. Sven

    What a great suggestion from Chas @09.34
    The post in recent weeks which most encouraged me was when James Che raised my hopes by (falsely) promising that he/she was leaving WoS in disgust. Far as I recall that lasted around 24 hours, unfortunately.

  158. chic.mcgregor


    I wonder if the screenwriters concerned have resisted the temptation of having the lines:

    “The name’s Bauer, Jack Bauer.”
    “The name’s Bourne, Jason Bourne.”?

  159. Luigi

    bobo bunny says:
    30 May, 2023 at 9:51 am
    Have the SNP published their accounts yet?

    Tick tock.

    Cant be long now…

    Ach, there will probably be a fudge and a long, drawn-out cover-up, just like the great campervan mystery. Looks and smells really bad though (not that the dopes in charge realise or care what the peasants think). Some of the SNP high heid yins seem to have been blessed with the protection of the establishment. I wonder why.

  160. Dorothy Devine

    Seems there are those who just aren’t interested in our history or our historic claims but happy to support Magna Carta and the like – if you are so enraged by posts you consider irrelevant or boring perhaps you should vanish up your own fundaments or just scroll on by and leave those of us who appreciate learning about our history and how it relates to the pickle we now find ourselves in to read or otherwise.

  161. bobo bunny

    31st May deadline for the accounts.

    1.2 million taken away from the SNP pigs at the trough, if they fail.

    Flip! Flap!!

    ‘Form a new independence party, fold the old! ‘

    ‘Goodbye to our old liabilities!!’

    ‘The independinista’s are stupid and will fall for it!!!’

    No, we wont. You are finished.

  162. Stephen O'Brien

    Self-determination. Independence.

    What more needs to be said, regards implementation of that basic right? It’s there to be seized!

    Accountability for SNPs abuse of electoral manifesto pledges, must be addressed.

    Systematic fraud. A devolved parliament advocating for independence to be achieved only by permission of the dominant government.

    SNPs, so called strategy, now exposed as shameful exploitation of the electorate, to further their own ends.

    Still, they pursue that self promotion, in the same manner.

    Integrity, long gone..

  163. Lenny Hartley

    Dorothy, hear hear,

  164. John Main

    Labour calling for Glasgow ULEZ to be postponed for a year.

    Cutting things damn fine!

    And so aggravating, cos I’ve already shelled out £44K for my new Tesla. Just like every other Glaswegian driver of an older, but otherwise thoroughly decent, car.

    Haha, I crack me up.

  165. chic.mcgregor

    More accurate figure for France if it had the same population density as England is 280 million people. Which would, of course, be an unsustainable figure for them.

  166. Ian Smith

    If the SNP miss their accounts deadline, can they still get cash pro rata if they can finally get them signed off, or do they get the whole whack at that point?

  167. Red

    John Main says:
    30 May, 2023 at 10:20 am
    @Chas says:30 May, 2023 at 9:14 am

    Something I find quite gob-smacking is that last week’s revelation of the stupendous UK immigration figures has raised not one comment on here.

    Scotland has been whistling past the graveyard for the last 25 years or so. The English are fast becoming a minority group in England, won’t be long till Scotland has massive, Irish style demographic problems.

    We can keep burning the candle at both ends (hopelessly insufficient birth rates and mass replacement migration), but not for much longer until the very concept of “Scotland” loses cohesion and meaning and we find ourselves in the Children of Men future.

    But our governments are more interested in glass bottles and banning kids from vaping. They view borders, countries and national sovereignty as a problem to be solved.

  168. Bobbyp

    Sam, 10.28am, well said Sam, lets see if the trolls come back and give you a reply to that.

  169. Northcode

    @chic.mcgregor 11:28am

    I wonder if the screenwriters concerned have resisted the temptation of having the lines:

    “The name’s Bauer, Jack Bauer.”
    “The name’s Bourne, Jason Bourne.”?

    You make a good, and amusing, point, chic.mcgregor.

    I imagine any screenwriter seriously suggesting the use of that particular Diacope for any character other than Bond would be sacked on the spot.

    There can be no doubt at all that Bond completely and unquestionably owns that one.

    And has done for over 60 years.

  170. Dot Jessiman

    Her involvement was the basic reason why I resigned from the NEC. I was sick and so did not attend the March meeting but received a report from a colleague who described her involvement in the discussion. This arose out of the statement to thee Committee from one of the people who resigned from the Finance and Audit Committee Not because the resignations appeared on the official Agenda!

    I subsequently wrote to the Secretary asking for an assurance that the Committee ended by directing the Chief Executive to hand over the required information. He Replied “The Treasurer did not ask them to”. It was clear therefore that the omission went right to the top and there was no fighting it. The last straw. She knew. She was complicit.

  171. sam

    Thank you, Bobbyp.

    The latest gift from the Union is shortening of the lives of the most vulnerarable people.

    This from ScotPHO

    “This ‘stalling’ of improving life expectancy and mortality rates represents an overall UK picture which masks a widening of inequalities. For those living in the most deprived areas of the UK, death rates are actually increasing (see Chart 2 and 3)…

    The Glasgow Centre for Population Health’s (GCPH) May 2022 report critically appraised all the evidence for the changing mortality rates and life expectancy trends across Scotland and the rest of the UK. It concluded that the principal driver was the UK Government’s austerity measures. The billions of pounds cut from public services and social security have impacted particularly on the poorest and most vulnerable in society.”

  172. Alf Baird

    Chas @ 9:14 am

    “The ‘relationship’ is what it is.”

    I have to say that is a rather woeful attempt at defining the relationship between England and Scotland.

    You could have made a case for ‘unionism’ but you are unwilling or unable to do so; there is clearly no ‘union’ in a dominant abusive and oppressive relationship that ultimately ends in the perishing of an oppressed native people and their nation.

    Because you are unwilling to analyse the relationship, you then call for the banning of the word ‘colonialism’; the only word that accurately defines the relationship and also explains the ‘meaning’ of independence, which is decolonization and liberation from oppression.

    History tells us that anti-colonial literature was often banned by Imperial powers in the colonies, yet revered by a liberated people after independence, so it is no surprise you wish to see the word ‘colonialism’ banned.

    Colonialism and its processes (often obscured) accurately explains our ‘condition’ whereas the myth of ‘unionism’ is only that, a myth, and a ‘cultural illusion’. Colonialism remains the raison detre for national independence; and “is what it is” – aye, a dominant, abusive, oppressive relationship – Scots dae whit yer telt whiles anither fowk an cultur remuive yer cultur/identity an tak aw yer laund an soveranety. Naw, thon’s nae union ma freend.

  173. dasBlimp

    Alf Baird says:
    30 May, 2023 at 1:06 pm

    blah blah blah

    … and yet the Scots voted for dependence to remain. Awa and bile yer heid yer wee timorous beastie!

  174. Ian Brotherhood

    @Dorothy Devine & Lenny Hartley –

    It’s sad to see such disrespect for history, whether the author is a unionist or not. Hard to believe that anyone is actually that ignorant unless they have good reason to pretend otherwise.

    Aside from the fact that the average life expectancy of a ‘royal’ is kicking on for a century, these things are all relative – the Russian revolution kicked off only 4 or 5 years before Prince Philip was born and he clearly took it quite personally. Not hard to imagine that, for all aristocratic elites (in Europe at any rate) the French revolution is a ‘recent event’ which still causes sleeplessness.

  175. Joe


    As I was today observing the new black and brown faces, not to mention all the new English accents, in my Scottish town that was almost homogenous just 3 years ago I was suddenly struck by the realisation that I simply didn’t ever suspect that our future prosperity hinged so heavily on bringing in mass numbers of Africans and Middle Easterners.

    Who knew that countries whose populations with an average IQ ranging from 70 to the high 80’s, and who have to put up billboards telling men that raping girls doesn’t cure Aids, would have such positive promise for us?

  176. Iain mhor

    @John Main 10:20 am
    I ready posted some of those numbers, and the figures are a click away.
    Also, when I see ‘shocking immigration figures’ my hand always heads for the source right away – because the headline rule.

    Y’know – “oh right, a fair chunk of that is British nationals coming back in, shite, I really wanted to get het up about Johnny Foreigner’

    Picking the thing you seem most concerned about (and at random because figures fluctuate) a Panelbase poll in March this year, put it at NO voters = 54% English & 44% other nationalities, so Johnny Foreigner isn’t the issue, and barely the English. Maybe the concern should be the 49% of Scots who would vote NO.

    Even then, the majority of English voters wouldn’t be all that bothered if it turned out YES (even if they had voted NO) according to another set of polling.

    Naturally, net internal migration over a very long period, probably favours English born people migrating into Scotland.
    But then they are coming here to get away from something, and their generations will be Scots born.

    Does the 49% of Scots polled who would vote NO, include a generation, or two of English settlers who are now identifying as Scots (Scots born) for the purposes of polling? No idea, can’t be arsed looking through the past census, polls, and surveys and collating the info.

  177. Scot

    On what basis was Sturgeon saying that the SNP finances had never been stronger?
    If it was on the basis of her personal knowledge, then she was lying as the finances were in a mess.
    If it was on the basis of ignorance then her statement was a blatant attempt to deceive.

    Either way she needs to give an answer.
    If the police ask a direct question, a no comment answer or its equivalent would incriminate her.

  178. sam

    Immigration…. the long view.

    “Prof Jim Wilson, from Edinburgh University’s Usher Institute and MRC Human Genetics Unit, said: “It is remarkable how long the shadows of Scotland’s Dark Age kingdoms are, given the massive increase in movement from the industrial revolution to the modern era.”


    “These ancient Irish genomes each show unequivocal evidence for massive migration. The early farmer has a majority ancestry originating ultimately in the Middle East, where agriculture was invented. The Bronze Age genomes are different again with about a third of their ancestry coming from ancient sources in the Pontic Steppe.”

  179. James

    @ Joe:

    Spot the (racist) half-wit.

  180. Ian Smith

    Scot says:
    30 May, 2023 at 2:29 pm

    If the police ask a direct question, a no comment answer or its equivalent would incriminate her.

    Only problem is that the police show no sign of asking the question. These issues are so old that its not just Humza’s leadership that has gone through, the questions could have been asked before the last election, where had they happened, it is far more likely Alba would have had a much better showing.

    It is not just the current cabinet that is illegitimate, it is half the entire parliament.

  181. sam

    John (Manuel) Swinney

    29 May 2021 tells the BBC he does not understand why Mr Chapman quit and he has no knowledge of any police investigation.

  182. Northcode

    @Alf Baird 1:06pm

    Two spectacularly incoherent ‘arguments’ in support of the ‘union’ in a row.

    And all you have to counter them with is the truth about colonial oppression, eloquently expressed, backed up with historical fact, the studied opinions of renowned and respected academics from around the world, and copious amounts of reason and logic.

    I’ll be straight with you. Alf. It’s a tough one.

  183. James Che

    Wait for it, soon soon, maybe this evening I will send the trolls into a tizzy spitting verbal abuse that I promised I would’nt post today.

    Trip wire.

    Looking forward to chatting with the rest you all later on when I am not so busy.

    Hizzy fits ready steady go go go

  184. Scot

    Ian Smith
    There is supposed to be a police investigation into the SNP finances ongoing which makes Sturgeon’s claims very relevant.
    If the police aren’t asking the correct questions to the correct people then they are either incompetent or not impartial.
    As you say the elections in the intermediate time period may well have resulted differently if the answers to these questions had been in the public domain.

    It is a scandal that all this appears to be being hushed up.

  185. Ottomanboi

    «No comment», IS a comment i.e an utterance from which a conclusion may be drawn, usually a negative one. The influence of tv «drama» has spread this nonsense.
    Best to stay silent, even under a hail blows.

  186. Ted

    Sam says @ 1.05: “The latest gift from the Union is shortening of the lives of the most vulnerable people”. No, Sam that would be the deep fried Mars Bars and all those drugs. You’d kind of think that a Glasgow research unit might have picked that up.

  187. Scot

    A negative inference may be drawn from a no comment answer to a particular relevant question on the direction of the trial judge. This negative inference will then be relayed to the jury at trial.
    The police interviewer should be aware of this and should draw up his/her papers, in relation to the interview, to the charging authority accordingly.

    A no comment interview is actually better for the police as there will be no further investigation able to be conducted in relation to the interview and they can go straight to the charging decision, if everything else is in place

    The charging authority can more easily make a decision on the basis of a no comment interview and it is often associated with a future guilty plea.

  188. Harper (Kenneth John)

    It will be difficult with the Crown Office under the control of The Scottish Government. Surely given how we have much evidence of the unhealthy relationship between the two including the delay in search warrants in this case the redactions in the Alex Salmond enquiry and many more, that The Crown Office should report to The Secretary of State not The Solicitor General while this case is live. It would be better still if the Solicitor General was independent chosen by the Bar Association and Scottish Solicitors from a short leet of three willing and effective lawyers with 25 years post qualification experience.

  189. A Scot Abroad

    This assertion of a colonial status for Scotland is just utter nonsense, and depressingly it’s being tricked up with the (very thin) veneer of respectability that comes from Napier Poly.

    In fact, a million or so Scots became colonisers in countries spread about the globe. There’s never been anything at all to stop a Scotsman or Scotswoman from achieving anything they wanted in life, whether it be in Scotland, elsewhere in the U.K., or as far away as New Zealand. And many did. They only people who whine about Scotland being a colony seem to be life’s losers.

  190. SteepBrae

    Alf Baird at 1.06pm
    A clear and cogent response as always and perfectly understandable.
    Your forbearance is admirable.

    It’s particularly reassuring to read that “anti-colonial literature was often…revered by a liberated people after independence”. Scottish art & music are also to be treasured and current artists/composers/performers deserve to be supported.

  191. Beauvais

    A Scot Abroad @4:20 pm

    “There’s never been anything at all to stop a Scotsman or Scotswoman from achieving anything they wanted in life…”

    Good, we want to achieve independence. It’s good to know that there’s nothing to stop us.

  192. Northcode

    @SteepBrae 4:32pm

    Well said, SteepBrae.

    A good point about Scotland’s art and music, too.

    And Scots writers have produced some of the greatest literature the world has seen.

  193. President Xiden

    When a politician says publicly that they will quote, ‘cooperate’ with any police enquiry, then can we take it that on being interviewed by the police under caution then they will answer any and all questions put to them to the best of their ability and will not resort to ‘no comment’ or refuse to answer as that would not be ‘cooperating’ would it?

  194. SteepBrae

    Ted 3.52pm

    But everything was taken into account – the “report critically appraised all the evidence for the changing mortality rates and life expectancy trends…It concluded that the principal driver was the UK Government’s austerity measures”.

    So this phenomenon is UK-wide and it doesn’t take much imagination to understand that of course it’s worse in areas of deprivation. Unlike in affluent areas, folk on low incomes have no financial cushion to help them survive enforced austerity.

    The study goes to the root of the problem although nae doot the odd yin might prefer to take a more superficial view and a swipe at those less fortunate than themselves.

  195. Chas

    Alf Baird

    Are you unable to read and comprehend?

    As expected you respond with the usual pish and slavers we have all heard 946 times before.

    Everything you ever say smacks of ‘It’s no fair’ and ‘Poor us’.

    What are YOU going to do to change anything?

    At least you have picked up a few deluded fanboys/girls/it’s along the way.

    I wonder if the people in the Highlands and the Western Isles feel as if they have been colonised by those living in the central belt of Scotland?

  196. Stuart MacKay

    A Scot Abroad

    With no more countries to subjugate or brown peoples to displace, then clearly England is not holding up it’s end of the deal. In more recent times the man-servants and maids are increasingly drawn from those former colonies, with the net result is that a Scots man or woman who wants to get on, is now frustrated in their ambitions. Furthermore, as England withdraws from international agreements, I’m afraid that Scots must take matters into their own hands and seek engagement with other nations by themselves.

  197. James

    Chas/Ted or whatever your name is;

    Aw, ffs man, away and lie in yer ain water.

    Are the Highlands and Western Isles resources stolen by ‘Scotland’? No they are stolen by Westminster.

    Today’s crossword clue;
    A country that has to ask the permission of the country next door to hold a referendum on deciding it’s own future –
    6 letters…..

  198. Joe

    @Sam 2:41pm


    But how does this impressive bit of knowledge fit into the current situation?

    Or are you trying to throw up anything to somehow put todays unprecedented situation into some kind of acceptable polished academic context?

    That’s it, isn’t it?

    Well, here is the trouble – there are 2 aspects for this. The first is the sheer scale of the immigration and demographic change. The second is that coupled with that demographic change is a very noticeable anti-european message that despite its obviousness everybody on our gracious and good ‘left’ side of the fence does their absolute best to pretend does not exist.

    So what does it mean?

    Well, for those who aren’t ideologically possessed and can therefore see with some clarity it means that the people who are doing this are cynically using the ‘equity’ doctrine to get what they want.

    In the past the equity doctrine was used with haves and have nots being the distinction so that the revolutionaries (((bankers and merchant class))) could use their oppressed proletariat to overthrow the entrenched order and make something more amiable to their goals.

    The same thing is happening now, but the dividing line is race. They are now busily importing their oppressed proletariat.

    Guess who is the figurative bourgeois targets of this next revolution?

    Ordinary white Europeans.

    Of course this is absolutely obvious to anyone…wait. Yep. I get it. Mass importing peoples from places with average IQ’s ranging from 70 to 89 will probably raise the bar here now.

    Forget I said anything.

  199. PacMan

    James says: 30 May, 2023 at 2:44 pm

    @ Joe:

    Spot the (racist) half-wit.

    The ‘not to mention all the new English accents’ feels like a bolted on after-thought.

    The price of free speech….

  200. Skip_NC

    I think I must need new glasses. I believe someone, within the last hour, just asked a university professor if he was unable to read and comprehend. That cannot be right. I must have misread it.

  201. twathater

    @ Chas and John Main, what kind of Scotland would you like to live in and pass on to your grandchildren

    Are you happy with the status quo where politicians of ALL parties have no integrity, no honesty , are self serving greed driven arsewipes and once in power they IGNORE any and all views and opinions of the electorate

    You both promote a show us the fucking money diatribe,as you both appear to be fully conversant with financial matters perhaps you can give examples of how an independent Scotland will prosper or otherwise, have you seen any of that from the current and past crop of moronic clowns, none of them WILL show you the money because they are too busy hoarding it for themselves
    You both ridicule and demean Scots sovereignty especially Chas, so Chas if you are a genuine Scot who wants independence, what is your route out of this asylum, and John I totally agree with your comments about Humza and the embarrassment of having this moronic clown as ANY representative of Scotland, I asked you before what are YOU willing to do about it

    Every country in the world the population are Sovereign if they show enough combined FORCE to enact it, Scotland is no different it just needs the population to waken up and show that we have had enough of the liars and thieves

    When Chas and John have shown us the fucking money and shown us how to get it, and explained their vision of an independent prosperous Scotland and how to get there I am sure more people will support their vision and the BPHB membership will whither on the vine

  202. Dan

    In a bonnie rural non-central belt area of Scotland. 200 newborn children and only 20 bairns born to both Scottish parents.
    Aye, best just shut up Jocks as that’s nowt to be concerned aboot…

  203. Southernbystander

    Joe 6.00pm
    ‘In the past the equity doctrine was used with haves and have nots being the distinction so that the revolutionaries (((bankers and merchant class))) could use their oppressed proletariat to overthrow the entrenched order and make something more amiable to their goals.’

    So why the three brackets?

    ‘Triple parentheses or triple brackets, also known as an (((echo))), are an antisemitic symbol that has been used to highlight the names of individuals assumed to be of a Jewish background, or organizations thought to be owned by Jews.’

    So Joe, why did you highlight these people as Jews? What point are you really making here?

    Demographic change is an inevitability and always has been. You will send yourself mad thinking it can be stopped. It can and should be controlled of course (so I agree we should be cautious about rapid, big change) but I do not get the impression you are much interested in control given that your rhetoric is mostly about the supposed inherent negatives of the migrant people’s themselves, their very humanity, which would not change if it were more controlled.

  204. Skip_NC

    O/T, I see Progress Scotland has filed unaudited financial statements for the eighteen months to May 31st, 2022. Current Assets up from 6,988 to 28,185. Creditors stable at about 10,000. The director (A Robertson) owes the company 1,900 quid, up from almost 750 in November 2020. In the period under review, he repaid less (GBP406) than the balance at November 30th 2020.

    I thought a look at the Register of interests would be worthwhile.

    “I am the Managing Director of Progress Scotland Ltd, a firm concerned with opinion polling and political research, (of Rutland House, 13 Rutland Street, Edinburgh, EH1 2AE). Since my election, I have not undertaken any work in this role. I expect to receive a final payment of between £501 and £1,000 for work completed prior to my election.”


    “Interest in shares

    No registrable interests.”

    This needs poking at.

  205. Scot

    President Xiden
    And yet, having listened to the word soup which was Sturgeon’s evidence to the Salmond enquiry, I have my doubts.
    Sturgeon could complicate the simplest question with an answer like an impenetrable forest.
    She would be in there with her multiple clause sentences which would spin the head of Cicero.
    Full of sound and fury (but) signifying nothing.
    I pity the poor scribe who has to write it all down, almost as much as those who have to listen to it.

  206. twathater

    Dan I was going to ask what the parameters are when being accused of racism , misogyny or homophobia, is it wrong or phobic to point out the truth, are all comments now to be sterilised in case we offend ANYBODY, what are the terms acceptable to speak about people, are there guidelines written down that you can ONLY refer to people

  207. Johnlm

    Immigration into Europe and the USA which politicians seem suspiciously unable to stop is undeniable.
    I suggest that pols like immigrants because they have to be granted ‘citizenship’ which puts them under political control much more the freeborn ‘common law’ population.
    Once the concept of citizenship is generally accepted then ID cards for all can be rolled out.
    Don’t give up your common law rights.

  208. Joe

    RE: my racist comment

    What’s the problem?

    Is it that its not the case that people from sub-saharan Africa and the Middle East aren’t actually from countries with IQ scores on average (sometimes significantly) lower than ours?

    Or is it that very well documented biological fact simply doesn’t count?

    Or is it that they aren’t being brought here en-masse?

    Or, and this is the option I like, is it that we haven’t yet been able to address this fact and it’s consequences from an angle that the ‘left’ can handle?

    For example it was a seriously bigoted position to maintain that trans people are probably mentally ill, I noticed it here on this very blog when I said it, until of course reality hit and, more importantly, the effect on women’s rights became too obvious too miss.

    Then the idea that trans people could be mentally ill became totally acceptable and not bigoted.

    So the only question about race, IQ and immigration reality is: when will there be enough catastrophe and negative effects for the kind of people who make up the bulk of the Scots independence movement to feel comfortable accepting it as reality?

    As for IQ it is probably the single most important determinant of how advanced a civilisation can be without outside help. This is what makes race and IQ such an uncomfortable topic.

    To put it in context in the US someone can not be considered legally fully responsible for their own actions if they have an IQ below 75. That means by US legal standards their are entire African ethnicities that mostly fall below this threshold.

    So, using this as a factual guide, you’d wonder why it’s not a factor when it comes to our population replacement? Sorry ‘immigration’ that should be.

  209. A Scot Abroad


    the only things impeding (not stopping) Scotsmen and Scotswomen’s desire to achieve independence are the two little matters of having not persuaded a majority of their fellow enfranchised Scots to support the issue, and of not having a convincing plan for an iScotland to change a few minds from No to Yes.

    Or is that too much a piece of colonial logic?

  210. James Che

    Describe the relationship between Scotland and England.

    Alf Baird, come on now be fair,

    Without Scotland being in a treaty with them and two Westminster legislation Corporation governments running Scotland, and Corporation Crown entity and the Bank of
    England and Wales Corporation,
    what are they supposed to answer?

    Even England has been Colonised by Corporations, it lost its Sovereignty a long time ago,
    I have even heard tell that the Monarch is longer in charge,
    It sold its sole to that devil the Bank of England Corporation after WW2 during the reign of Elizabeth 11 .
    And then we have the Civil service and ” Think Tanks” running Westminster.

    Gone are the days when Englands Britainia parliament used to rule the waves,

    Nowadays they cannot even think for themselves, they have to employ servants to think for member of that parliament,

    Probably why some eejit posted on UK parliament site the Scots and Scotland have not been a treaty with Westminster and the rest of England since 1707,

    No one to think it out before hand, and if there was they are not in control of the parliament any more,

    Gee Alf, We should be more those that do not pay attention to their history, never mind ours,

  211. Chas


    Another one who is unable to read!

    ‘Are the Highlands and Western Isles resources stolen by ‘Scotland’? Where in my post did I state that?

    The BPHB will be pleased that you managed to include some guid Scottish words in your ramble. Baird will be proud of you too.
    It may have escaped your notice but there was a referendum a few years ago-Scotland said NO.

    The pretence by the SNP about wanting another one now is just that, a pretence. An Independent Scotland with the SNP/Greens running the show is abhorrent to the majority of Scots.

    Skip NC

    When the ex professor at Napier University (previously a Technical College prior to 1992) responds to a post, which he clearly has not understood, it is not unreasonable to doubt his comprehension. Maybe the learned gentlemen was in a hurry to repeat, ad nauseum, his habitual mince.

  212. Northcode

    My line goes back 850 years to Somerled, Lord of the Isles.

    My family always used to say this together every Hogmanay over a raised glass of whisky or sometimes a cup of mead – Just as the bells rang oot.

    Lo, there do I see my father.
    There do I see my mother.
    And my sisters and my brothers.
    Lo, there do I see the line of my people.
    Back to the beginning.
    Lo, they do call to me.
    They bid me take my place among them.
    In the Western Isles and the Highlands.
    Where the brave may live forever.

    We wir aw big fans o thon pictuure, ‘The 13th Warrior’.

  213. Stuart MacKay


    It wasn’t the IQ since 100 is the average, so 50% of the population must be, by definition, below average – it’s simple statistics.

    What surprised me was that you took the situation regarding the virgin-cure which I believe was limited to parts of South Africa ( a society already suffering from severe stress) and made a generalisation from it. I think that does plenty of people a disservice and damaged your standing as a result.

  214. James Che

    The monarch of Britain is now reduce to Chair person,

  215. Geoff Anderson

    The Indy vote must really be doing well on the Westminster secret polling given the growing infestation of Unionists trying to derail the comments section. I just wish people would just make a list of names and skip past them. They are not difficult to spot.

    Why must so many of you engage with those so obviously uninterested in Scotland?

  216. Iain mhor

    Deary me, native Scots and funny accents, and deep tans.
    Here’s a thought exercise:
    Scotland becomes Independent next year. Within 3 years, it is a fully functioning Independent state, and within 10, a very prosperous nation.

    In 30 years it is still an Independent nation.
    Now, given the current hand-wringing over demographics – is it still an Independent Scotland? Are the people living in Scotland Scottish?
    What about in 50 years?

    I’m Scottish, but the Scotland I live in, is definitely not the Scotland of 50 years ago.
    Did it stop becoming Scottish some time in between – before that, further back? Did some people living in Scotland stop being Scottish – is one of them me! How many Scottish grannies do you need?

    Is it cultural, should I be cutting peat, wearing the kilt, and eating jeely pieces, should the weans have whoooping cough, and rickets? Ochone! Help, I’m doon wi the Incomers!

    Maybe it is in the rules somewhere?
    “Sorry, have to revoke your Independence there, your population ran out of Original Grannies™ last year – according to our records, you’re now officially Poland – sign here, here, and here.

    Now, Canada, can we have a wee word with you.

    It’s a guid man kens his faither, never mind his great, great granny.
    “I can trace my lineage back to…” I’ll just stop you right there, give me a minute ’til I stop laughing.
    Now genetics, and genetic diversity is another thing – but that’s a whole other can of worms – literally, if you’re digging up your great, great granny to check.

  217. James Che

    The Magna Carta for has been restrained by Corporate bodies. And new withdrawel of human right since Brexit, Its a shame really.

    They will have to bow down to 15 minute Cities, big Pharma on steroids, no national health, lockups of humans and no juries. Immigration out of control, Unless they start paying attention to what is happening South of the border whom will save that side of these Isles.

  218. Cat-Sith

    @A Scot Abroad
    You’ve come out with some hilarious pish at times but now you are denying every single opinion poll that has ever had a majority for independence?

    Thank you for giving such a clear example to show anyone who might not be aware of your haverings why to ignore you.

  219. Johnlm

    Do not send your DNA off to check your ancestry.
    The government has enough info. on you already without you assisting them.

    Recall the guy who sent his pet iguana’s saliva to the 23andMe bunco?
    The result – 25% Jewish

  220. Chas


    ‘You both ridicule and demean Scots sovereignty especially Chas, so Chas if you are a genuine Scot who wants independence, what is your route out of this asylum,’

    It is relatively simple.

    The electorate need to put in place an honest, competent Government. A government which pursues policies which the majority want. It would also be helpful if the people would be better of physically, mentally and more importantly financially following Independence-a Government who could project forward. A Government that spends our money effectively and wisely. A government which put the needs of the people before the needs of themselves. A government with Ministers with some degree of expertise in the area under their remit. Do this and the vast majority of Scots will be clamouring for Independence. I look at our current lot who appear to be doing the exact opposite. But, the new sooper dooper Independence Minister will shortly be issuing another ‘paper’ which will say hee haw again. The big stumbling block is the electorate themselves. 30% still think that the SNP is the answer and that Saint Nicola of Dreghorn should be anointed. These numbers are dwindling thankfully.

    Of course, the easy answer is it is all Westminster’s fault. If only we had the appropriate levers. The reality is that our Government are incompetent in so many ways and the only lever the know is reverse.

    Do you see many suitable politicians, from any party waiting in the wings? There may be the odd 2 or 3 but not enough to form a Government.

    Meanwhile we see umpteen posts every fucking day about ‘colonialism’ and 300 year old shite that 90% of the electorate have no interest in. I saw a previous post when some misguided sole thought it was great to read history lessons from James Che. Jesus wept!

    Face it-we are in for a long haul until the SNP/Greens are booted out. That is the start.

    Depressing isn’t it.

  221. Dan

    twathater says: at 6:37 pm

    Dan I was going to ask what the parameters are when being accused of racism , misogyny or homophobia, is it wrong or phobic to point out the truth, are all comments now to be sterilised in case we offend ANYBODY, what are the terms acceptable to speak about people, are there guidelines written down that you can ONLY refer to people.

    Well with the new hate crime bill coming into effect I understand if anyone finds what someone says hurtful or offensive then they are by default guilty.
    Now obviously that doesn’t set the parameters you seek to know. Because tbh the way things are going, being “rewarded” with free accommodation, reduced heating bills, and three meals a day whilst locked up with like-minded individuals away from the madding crowd, could be construed as an an attractive inducement to commit a crime!

    Another no doubt contentious take to the demographic discussion is the genderwoowoo thang, which could be considered in the slightly longer (let’s utlise the “once in a generation” term), as just a self-selecting eugenics program which will remove certain characteristics from the ongoing gene pool.
    If you tolerate this then your grandchildren won’t be next… because your kids won’t be able to procreate once they have cut off their sexual reproduction organs.

  222. Joe

    There will come a time when the intelligent will be silenced so as not to offend the stupid.

    @Southern Bystander

    Yes, the major proponents of communism/marxism (equity doctrine) were Jews and still are. Go back far enough and it wasn’t a secret, even people like Churchill wrote about it.

    ‘I do not get the impression you are much interested in control given that your rhetoric is mostly about the supposed inherent negatives of the migrant people’s themselves, their very humanity, which would not change if it were more controlled.’

    A country that was run for the benefit of it’s inhabitants would probably have a minimal IQ requirement among other factors

    @Stuart Mackay

    I don’t have a standing. Whatever I say can be taken on it’s merit. I never intend to be anything other than a pusher of the overton window and certainly not a leader.

    As for the virgin cure, well I have seen recently something about a central African country having to do a campaign about it. But let’s just say for arguments sake that I am wrong. Lets also say that the kind of brutality that is common in Africa is just a fairy tale also.

    How does that change the fact that a white person with an IQ below 75 is considered retarded but a black person isn’t? Is it because a huge portion of Somalians (for example) fall on or around that level?

    Or is it down to the kind of political correctness that brought us self-ID?

    Why would any sane country invite whole swathes of people with that level of cognitive ability into an advanced technological nation unless the purpose was for something other than progress?

    Honest question.

  223. A Scot Abroad


    it’s a fact that there hasn’t been a sustained majority of polls showing that Indy has a majority. There must have been thousands of such polls, going back decades. Sure, there have been a few showing a pro-Indy majority. But not most of them.

    The majority of enfranchised Scots aren’t yet convinced of Indy. And the only hilarious pish is being spouted by those ignoring that historic and current reality.

  224. Joe

    @Southern Bystander and Stuart Mackay

    Sorry, I did reply but it’s in moderation

  225. Tommo

    To my amusement that tiny fellow from the laughable Lib Dems is criticising the SNP for making a ‘pig’s ear of a good idea’- ie the bottle fiasco; he seems to have retreated from his gushing support for the transexualists as reflected in the GRR fiasco; he and his party should not be allowed to follow their usual policy of making it up as they go along

  226. Liz

    Seems to me there’s a few newbies on here throwing insults.
    Prof Baird knows what he’s talking about.
    Insults from non-entities will be easily ignored.
    This isn’t Twitter, where people are constantly on the wind up.
    I usually block or ignore.

  227. James Jones

    Geoff Anderson at 7:11 pm
    “The Indy vote must really be doing well on the Westminster secret polling given the growing infestation of Unionists trying to derail the comments section.”

    I think it’s more that recent events reveal that Scotland has royally screwed up the opportunity which devolution had offered, ie: to demonstrate how a responsible, modern democracy would work, and work better, for the majority north of the border; and astonishment that some of you still can’t see it.

    Having voted for the independence party (or more likely just the not-the-Lib/Lab/Con Party) some people still believe the corruption and the failures aren’t their problem and more powers given to the same political class would somehow make it all better. Madness.

    Forget all the imagined historical injustices, this is about the present and the future. A demonstrable and prolonged 10 to 12% increase in the Yes vote would make IndyRef2 much harder to deny, and that’s not many. Dubious claims of ‘colonisation’ and nonsensical claims of a 300-year old mistake aren’t going to convince more Scots to join, and the increase in conspiracy theories, racism and foul/ intolerant language in the WOS comments won’t boost the Yes vote either. If you just keep blaming Westminster, the English, Unionists and even MI5 you’re in denial.

  228. Northcode

    @Chas (7:41pm) used the Anaphora (an-AFF-or-a) figure in his comment.

    A government that spends our money effectively and wisely.
    A government which put the needs of the people before the needs of themselves.
    A government with Ministers with some degree of expertise in the area under their remit.

    And he’s used it quite effectively, too.

    I don’t agree with Chas’s views.
    But I have to give credit where credit’s due.

    Because it’s pretty good, and it’s exactly the right way to use Anaphora.

  229. Tinto Chiel

    Northcode says: @4:52

    @SteepBrae 4:32pm

    “Well said, SteepBrae.

    A good point about Scotland’s art and music, too.

    And Scots writers have produced some of the greatest literature the world has seen.”

    Very true, it’s just that very little of it is taught in our “Curriculum for Excellence” schools. An admirable starting point might be the closing pages of “Sunset Song” by Gibbon but I’m not too sure of the gender of the standing stones so mibbes scrub that to avoid offence/hate speech.

    Skip_NC says at 6:10 pm:

    “I think I must need new glasses. I believe someone, within the last hour, just asked a university professor if he was unable to read and comprehend. That cannot be right. I must have misread it.”

    Yes, thought the same myself, S_NC. Must be this post-modernist/End of History world we’re supposed to inhabit nowadays.

  230. Alf Baird

    Iain mhor @ 7:12 pm

    “Is it cultural”

    The aim of Cultural Imperialism is to impose another (dominant) culture on a people, leading to a change in their culture and national identity. So yes, it is cultural ‘conditioning’.

  231. Ron Clark

    Go James Che!!!

    More more more posts.

    Keep em comin James Che.

    It annoys the fuck out of the resident English Trolls.

  232. Dan

    @ Northcode at 8:30 pm

    Hmm, why give credence to someone calling our administration of devolved powers a government with full empowerment, especially when you have previously highlighted the restricted and therefore limited capacity Holyrood can operate within when all significant powers to effect change are reserved to London Rule.

  233. Tom

    How the SNP still have over 70,000 members had got to be one of the biggest mysteries of the 21st century.

  234. Northcode

    @Dan 8:51pm

    Don’t read anything into it, Dan.

    I wasn’t giving credence to any of his views.

    I’m pretty sure he’s talking about me here:

    I saw a previous post when some misguided sole thought it was great to read history lessons from James Che. Jesus wept!

    I’m no fan of his views, or the way he generally expresses them.

    And I know he’s no fan of mine.

    I was merely pointing out his use of a Rhetorical figure of speech.

    That’s all.

  235. jockmcx

    Had’nt considered that…
    The snp not winning enough support in 2014 to get the yes vote over the line (or maybe it did?)…

    Decides to go completely bat shit crazy,thereby destroying the dvolution settlement…getting the scot’s mad enough to to demand independence,and to hell with all politicians,making Scotland in the
    Onion ungovernable!

    Clamber up young jack,grab the golden goose,slide back to the bottom
    (mind your ball’s now)…and chop that beanstock down!

    But what about all the thick (ex labour)snp worshiper’s?


  236. John Main

    @twathater says:30 May, 2023 at 6:13 pm

    I don’t have a vision for the route to an independent prosperous Scotland – I’m not a politician, economist, civil servant, charismatic demagogue, or any of the other multiple competencies that are needed.

    But I can see clearly enough when these competencies are lacking.

    That’s not unusual. I have no aptitude for brain surgery or flying an aircraft either. But in a similar vein, I can tell, when a patient is left paralysed post-op, or when everybody is killed in a spectacular fireball on the runway, that the surgeon or the pilot have fucked up.

    What I see in Scotland right now is a Class 1, Grade A fuck up. I see no reason to persist with any of the home-grown eejits and crims who have brought us here.

    Regarding your expectation that I should take responsibility for the defenestration of Yousaf. There are a few, weel-kent, influential Scots, with contacts and audiences, who have attempted to defenestrate Scottish politicians and civil servants in recent years.

    They ended up doing time, or fighting, only partially successfully, to retain their reputations, through our deeply compromised legal system.

    You know this, and everybody on here does too, because the posts about it are frequent.

    Just why you think I can achieve anything, when these household names can’t, beats me.

    Anyway, I’ll repeat my rallying call: Show us the fucking money. Put long-winded, what that means is: Don’t just tell us how much wealth of different kinds can be extracted from Scotland – show each Scots voter how a portion of that tangible and spendable wealth will end up in their wallet post-Indy.

    The wealth exists – sure. The wealth is owned by others – undeniable. Post-Indy, how will the wealth be prised from their grasp?

    It’s not going to be easy. Again, as we all know, why we were cheering on the Chinese Flu over-reaction, trillions of pounds were taken from the ordinary people of the world and transferred to the already super-rich global elites. Looks like we are powerless to do anything about that.

    So again, how are we going to get Scotland’s wealth away from these very same people post-Indy?

  237. James Che


    I don’t think I referred to all yor post,

    Another one who can’t read.

  238. John Main

    @Iain mhor says:30 May, 2023 at 7:12 pm

    I’m Scottish, but the Scotland I live in, is definitely not the Scotland of 50 years ago

    Indeed, true of just about anywhere in the world.

    Questions: Did the Scots of 50 years ago have the right to make the changes we see? Did the newcomers over the past 50 years have the right to make the changes we see?

    Not all Scots like the changes, whether made by indigenous Scots or newcomers. Should those dissenting Scots thole the changes made by their fellow Scots? Should they have to thole the changes made by newcomers?

    Sorry, have to revoke your Independence there, your population ran out of Original Grannies™ last year

    Yeah, it happens. Tasmania, New Zealand, Australia, for example. They ran out of Original Grannies too.

    Question: How did that work out for them?

    The disregarded elephant in the room, disregarded because of the conditioning we have all been force-fed for the past 30 years, is this: Why do we assume, despite much evidence to the contrary, that the newcomers wish us well?

    And a final question: Given that so many incomers are fleeing intolerable situations in their countries of origin, why do we assume that they won’t just replicate the mess they made there all over again? But this time here.

  239. Derek

    “Dan says:
    30 May, 2023 at 6:14 pm

    In a bonnie rural non-central belt area of Scotland. 200 newborn children and only 20 bairns born to both Scottish parents.”

    Got a link or any more info? I wonder how many of the children would, in 15 years’ time or so, describe themselves as Scottish. Not what their parents would describe them as.

  240. Carol Neill

    I am neither ignorant nor disinterested in my country’s history but I am beyond bored about reading the same old shit day after day
    I care about what’s happening now

  241. James Che

    Thinking about Dan’s mention of the English Westminster legislated hate crime bill soon to be legislated on Scots people,

    Is that not a hate crime?

    The devolved government is under Westminster legislation,
    Under, and in the devolved government they swear an oath of alligience to the Crown.
    The Crown is a Corporation.
    Westminster government is a corporation.
    Westminster government.

    For a legislated devolved government from Westminster with the Crown office imposed into that corporate body in Scotland from Westminster only targeting Scots for freedom of speech is racist and a hate crime.

  242. Iain mhor

    @Alf Baird 8:34pm

    Well, it’s hard to quantify isn’t it, which I was facetiously attempting to illustrate.
    Is there a level you can stop at, and still be said to retain a culture – where do you draw the line, and how to identify it, and is it even possible?

    When is cultural extirpation started, and when is it complete? It’s not possible, or at least highly improbable, to keep a culture entirely isolated. Go back to the years so copiously quoted by James Che, and a case could be made for Scotland being considered French.

    Perhaps speed of change is the issue, but that still falls into problems. It’s a Ship of Theseus dilemma (or paradox if you like) when applied to a nation, that’s what I was getting at.
    In the imaginary scenario 50 years hence, I reckon the Scots would vehemntly oppose any suggestion they weren’t Scottish – engaging in reductio ad absurdum, half the world is now American if speed of cultural change is the metric.

    Then there is export, alteration, and re-introduction of culture, and the apreciation vs appropriation argument.
    I mean, I wore a kilt to my wedding – buggered if I know why – my father didn’t wear one to his, nor my Grandfather.
    Was its cultural origin altered, and reintroduced, and I appreciated it, or did I appropriate it -is it my culture? It is now apparently.

    Tricky. Though we think we understand what we mean, we don’t really – sometimes perception of a loss of culture is really just “All this used to be green fields, Summers were longer, and we could leave our doors unlocked – now get off my lawn!”

    When it boils down to it, a culture is defined more accurately, as not so much who you are, but who you aren’t, and the past is another country – they do things differently there.

    Academically, pockets of culture are pushed to edges. I’ll be the one hurling invective in my native tongue, and considered a colourful character, worthy of recording for posterity – the last speaker of the swerry wurd.

  243. James Che


    I have a plan, but I copied it from someone else,

    Here goes,

    We do not need to do a long term plan,


    Westminster did it for us 300 years ago.

    We are not obliged in any way to keep up a illegal pretence there is Union between the two Countries of Scotland and England ,
    now that the UK government parliament site has informed every man and his dog, including the rest of the world,
    They themselves extinguished the Scottish parliament from the treaty,

  244. jockmcx


  245. Joe

    @Stuart Mackay

    I don’t have a standing. My comments do or don’t. I never intend to be any kind of leading light, only to inject idea’s that others, if one happens to have merit can do something with.

    But anyway – you can add Zambia as a place where the virgin cure problem has had to be dealt with and possibly another if I can remember the source.

    But lets admit that the way I have said this was crass. Lets also assume that the other acts of extreme violence, from eating defeated enemies to burning alive other Africans (because they are foreign no less) are also so localised and random that we can take it for granted that none of the many coming here would be able to have participated in anything like this thanks to our strong immigration filter.

    Instead lets just ask a very ugly hypothetical question: given that someone of IQ of 50 to 75 is considered mildly r3tarded why is it that we cannot think of this in terms of the basic utility of a population whose average IQ falls into this range? What does it mean for our country if our policy is to import large amounts of such people?

    @Southern bystander

    The triple parenthesis people and the equity doctrine:,7340,L-3342999,00.html

    The greater part of NGO’s involved in trafficking people to Europe and the US are of the triple parenthesis people also.

    You made this impressive statement:

    ‘Demographic change is an inevitability and always has been. You will send yourself mad thinking it can be stopped. It can and should be controlled of course (so I agree we should be cautious about rapid, big change) but I do not get the impression you are much interested in control given that your rhetoric is mostly about the supposed inherent negatives of the migrant people’s themselves, their very humanity, which would not change if it were more controlled.’

    You do realise that any given country has the ability to make sure their own people are housed, provided for and taken care of first right? That is what a border is for?

    As for the ‘inherent negatives of the migrant peoples themselves’? In this instance I just wish that Britain had succeeded in making the world England. That way we could be super critical about every white, brown, yellow, black or green person that even came near our border. Indeed, if that were the case I would be the voice of moderation here.

  246. rob

    James che
    You are wiping the floor with the Yoons on this site.
    Keep it up, you have all the support ,they have none and are barely tolerated.

  247. John Main

    @Iain mhor says:30 May, 2023 at 10:26 pm

    I was trying to reply to your post, but gave up. As you say, culture isn’t worth fighting over.

    Unless, of course, a different culture decides to exterminate you just because they perceive you as belonging to your culture, even if you don’t value it at all!

    Hard to comprehend isn’t it, if culture doesn’t matter, why the Russtis need to exterminate their neighbour’s one.

    Intriguing to consider how you might react if wearing of kilts was to be banned under all circumstances.

    My recollections of the past are rosy-tinted too. Still, I think I would remember if:

    We used to slice bits off wee lassies to stop them touching themselves when they grew up.

    We used to pass death sentences on anybody who openly said “Sod this religion lark, I’m done with it”.

    Somehow or other, these two are part of our nation’s culture now. I wonder how that happened. But as you write, it will all be the same in 50 years time, so ho hum.

    Tough for some women and certain atheists meantime, eh?

  248. Alf Baird

    Iain mhor @ 10:26 pm

    “Well, it’s hard to quantify isn’t it”

    The definition of what a national culture involves is well established, and it is a great deal mair than the kilt, or kitsch, or the airts fer that maitter. In any peoples quest for self-determination Frantz Fanon said that independence “is a fight for a national culture” against the scourge of colonialism which leads to the “obliteration” of a national culture. Culture involves the way a people think, how they look at the world, how they act, what they do, with strong linkage to their language and the words they use. Cultural or colonial assimilation seeks to change all that and more, which leads to ‘dependency culture’ and its related psychological effects, the ‘colonial mindset’ etc.

  249. Dan

    @ Derek at 10:13 pm

    Soz, don’t have a link as the stats were just something a health worker mentioned in a wider conversation. I have spoken with the worker since to double check I had heard the figure correctly which they again confirmed was the case.
    The recent census data being released would help to shed some light and accuracy on these sort of matters.
    It is however pretty apparent that there is a significant influx of English folk into my rural area though. And this also ties in with some of the stats on CHI numbers in the following article.

    Plus there was Mia’s extrapolation of changing demographics from a while back.

  250. James Che

    Interesting subject, Culture,

    The fact the very word ” Culture” came into being, recognised by so many nations is evidence in itself it exists, that culture of a nation by traditions , by language, by costume, by a gathered believe in one’s people and area of occupation for hundreds perhaps thousands of years,

    Culture itself can and is often interrupted by traumatic change, invasion of peoples culture by a opposing force and by Colonisation,

    However the thread of who we are is much deeper than mere traditions and language,

    It is is your genetic make up as deep as your sole and exists in something akin to sole feeling the connection to its history, remembered or felt.

    Many nations, such as American Indians still know to this day that they are from a different past than from present day Americans.
    The same can be said of Cambodians.
    I doubt any English man at the moment would claim he was Russian because his skin colour was the same and he had learned that language.

    Culture, tradition, are the outward signs of who we are, and much more easily identifiable to study,
    What is not seen, or is not well studied is that invisible, but very strong bond of attachment to ones background that flows inside the heart, mind and sole of a nation,
    Even when altered traditions and culture is enforced, it does not wane.

    You know when you have come home, when you are in amongst you’re own people someone in a university does not have tell you or to explain to you,

    It is interesting to note why you donned the kilt,
    Like many Americans and Irish men abroad that still wear their kilts and national dress, still play tunes from their Countries and fore fathers.
    The place they live now and the memories of moving to a new Country often belong to generations that came before them.
    But their is still that intangible element of connection that goes deeper than the the normal six senses are able to comprehend or perceives,

    The first evidence that Colonisation has and is taken place are the outward traditions and Imposed Culture change,
    But inside is not so easily changed.

  251. Northcode

    @Alf Baird

    A couple of things, Alf.

    I’ve been reading Paper One of your series,

    Alf Baird: Paper One in the 10 Part Baird Series

    And I came across this passage:

    the Scots are therefore culturally and hence ethnically oppressed, giving rise to the psychological condition we refer to as the Scottish Cultural Cringe (the scientific term for which is internalized racism) and a negative feeling of inferiority amongst Scots

    The ‘Scottish cringe’ as a term sounds fairly innocuous. But it isn’t, is it?

    I get the sense that it’s a psychological state of mind which is much more vicious than it sounds.

    I also never thought of it as a form of racism before.

    Also, I’m motivated to improve my Scots. Especially when it comes to writing. And I was wondering if you knew of any good resources, or books, which might help.

  252. A Scot Abroad

    Alf Baird,

    still banging on uselessly about colonisation?

    One day, you’ll grow up, get a sense of proportion, and realise that you’ve been wasting your own time. Nobody of any importance is interested in some cod-academic making puerile arguments that aren’t going anywhere.

  253. James Che

    Colonisation is the severe attempt to break that inner spirit of belonging to a group, a bond of people, place, and origin.
    This has happened to Scotland for Centuries,
    Now we see it happening to those whom Colonised Scotland.

    From msm we see this is now taken place for the man in England, Wales and again in Ireland. with mass migration, and being forced to give way by new laws passed under legislation to accept other religions, other dress codes, other genders, to listen to foreign lanauges spoken on their street they do not understand,

    Like us the will have to face this new imposed culture change that dilutes there sense of nation and sense of who they were.

  254. James Che

    Its been a long day an still have work to do before I get to bed,
    Til we meet again see you all tomorrow.

  255. Derek

    Thanks, Dan.

    I’m in Edinburgh so the change of accents on the buses (for example) is quite obvious. Some of that’s tourism, obviously, but there’s more than that.

  256. Antoine Roquentin

    @A Scot Abroad

    A small selection from your reading-list regarding the subject of colonisation would be very welcome. Nothing too elaborate, three or four titles, along with their authors, would suffice.
    Thank you.

  257. Ron Clark

    James Che.

    Good days work.

    Same again tomorrow.

  258. A Scot Abroad

    Antoine Roquentin,

    I don’t have a long reading list about colonisation. I deal in the real world, where nobody influential cares about it. Which means that anybody who does bang on about it endlessly on a blog as being ignorable and irrelevant.

  259. Saffron Robe

    A couple of very good articles on the catastrophic effects of colonisation, particularly on the wealth and the health of the colonised:

  260. twathater

    @ Chas 7.41pm , I don’t think there is anything in your 2nd paragraph that anyone here would or could argue with
    That would be an ideal future for Scotland but that unfortunately is NOT what we had previously or what we have currently
    Your 3rd para is only half true, it obviously isn’t ALL WM fault but a lot of it is, as is the point you make about the current corrupt lot in Scottish government
    Para 4 I have to agree with your assessment of all politicians within Scotland but also the wider uk
    TBQH I automatically assume they are all corrupt incompetent liars and if proven wrong (which is very seldom) I am totally taken aback
    Para 5 This is where I totally disagree with you

    I want a fair and equitable country where poverty is relatively unknown or totally abolished (unlikely I know), I want honesty and integrity for all public SERVANTS, and when the person at any level has broken these conditions I want them sacked and any pension entitlement removed
    I want management of our institutions to do what they are paid for, I want management of our institutions to have the hands on experience of their remit, I want the eradication of quangos, I want the immediate removal and a lifelong ban on ANY senior public service manager convicted of a criminal charge, I want a REAL RECALL LAW decided by the electorate not politicians , I want corporate responsibility to have meaning, if you want the big bucks you have to be responsible
    I want the abolition of lobbyists or a severely restricted register of their ability to interact with individual ministers , I want the electorate to be able to remove public funding from organisations
    I want so much more and the only way we can accomplish ANY of that is through a people’s assembly of sovereign Scots and fortunately we have had ancestors who had the foresight and experience of corruption against them to set up a legal safeguard to protect and arm ordinary citizens
    Politicians will NEVER give up power WM and HR prove that every day, if our sovereignty means nothing as you assert the only way things will change is through revolution and there is even less chance of that

  261. Johnlm

    To take things back to basics.

    Who makes the law?
    The owner makes the law.

    Who is the owner?
    The owner is the one who created it.

    Whatever this life is we did not create it and have no business ordering others about as if we own it.
    Politics / Law should never be meekly accepted.

  262. Mac

    It is very noticeable that the BTL comments section on here has been rendered almost unreadable in quite a short time span. Scrolling past about 90% of the comments now. I wonder why…

  263. John Main

    @Mac says:31 May, 2023 at 7:06 am

    BTL comments section on here has been rendered almost unreadable

    Must be because a “readable” BTL comments section has aided and abetted the process that has given Scotland Yousaf, sleaze, incompetence, reality denial, the winding down of the SNP, and the likely return of Sir “Fit’s A Woman” Starmer to control and influence in Scotland once more.

    Perceptive readers on here think it’s high time for a change of direction. Given the sad state of Scotland now, you really shouldn’t need to wonder why…

  264. John Main

    @Saffron Robe says:31 May, 2023 at 1:51 am

    See these 100 million dead Indians.

    What would Scotland’s contribution be? I imagine Scotland was pro-rata represented in the Indian Colonial Project, right?

    My rule of thumb is that as Scotland has approx 10% of England’s population, we can take 1 tenth as a guide. So that should mean Scotland has the blood of 10 million Indians on its hands, right?

    I would keep that one quiet, Saffron. Next thing you know, somebody will be demanding compensation and reparations from you.

    And me, which is what I really care about.

  265. Ron Clark

    Mac 7.06am

    Wings has been infested by Trolls.

    They are easy to spot.

    They seem to agree with each other on almost everything.

    These new names seem to be linked in some way.

    You say you are scrolling past about 90% of posts now, that’s because about 90% of posts are either posted by one of these names,,,or some idiot is involved in a conversation with one of these new names.

    They seem to have the same messages at their core.

    They seem to be anti EU, anti Indy, Pro nukes, Pro Uk-rain, anti Ruskia, and just love pushing the message that Scotland is too wee, too poor, too stupid.

    And anti James Che lol.

    They don’t like reading about Scottish history, they are not interested in that kind of thing.

    So all in all, very easy to spot who the Trolls are.

  266. Xaracen

    James Che said;

    “We do not need to do a long term plan,


    Westminster did it for us 300 years ago.

    We are not obliged in any way to keep up an illegal pretence there is Union between the two Countries of Scotland and England,
    now that the UK government parliament site has informed every man and his dog, including the rest of the world, they themselves extinguished the Scottish parliament from the treaty.”

    James, these words are a good summary of the position, apart from the last bit;

    “They themselves extinguished the Scottish parliament MPs’ authority to speak for the Scottish partner from the treaty.

    That was the key breach that enabled all the others, and enabled all the many abuses that followed. The Scots MPs should have raised merry hell the very first time England’s MPs overruled them in a vote.

    Which bit of ‘there are two partners in the Union, not 650!’ did they, and England’s MPs not get, and still don’t?

  267. John Main

    @Ron Clark says:31 May, 2023 at 8:17 am

    very easy to spot who the Trolls are

    Yeah, just been discussing this with Wilson, Smittie, smittie, jockmcx, etc etc and they all agree with you.

  268. Alf Baird

    John Main @ 8:11 am

    “I imagine Scotland was pro-rata represented in the Indian Colonial Project, right?”

    Wrong. British-Indian armies were themselves used to suppress various peoples in Asia, Mid East and Africa, as well as in India. African tribal groups were similarly recruited and used by the same British colonial-corporate-military elites in Africa. Irish and Scots were recruited into the British military to suppress their own peoples as well as others.

    The colonial model was/is invariably the same, Imperial powers using native groups to divide and rule in an acquired territory. This is also why colonialism is regarded as ‘force’ and ‘geographic violence’. Colonialism is also a co-operative venture with native elites who quite take to the supposedly ‘superior’ British identity and values in protection of their privileged position.

  269. Ron Clark

    “Yousaf confident that SNP accounts will be filed on time as deadline looms
    The party’s Westminster group accounts need to be filed on Wednesday or it risks losing out on £1.2m of short money.”

  270. Ron Clark

    “Yousaf confident that SNP accounts will be filed on time as deadline looms
    The party’s Westminster group accounts need to be filed on Wednesday or it risks losing out on £1.2m of short money.”

  271. John Main

    @Alf Baird says:31 May, 2023 at 8:55 am


    Well, don’t waste time telling me!

    Get onto the interweb and sort out all the stuff about the Calcutta Scottish, the Highland regiments and their part in the suppression of the Mutiny, etc.

    Seek out the author of the paper “The Scottish Connection with India 1725–1833” and get him to re-write it. Here’s an example of the guff you will find in it:

    “a disproportionate number of Scots came to fill positions in the East India Company, in its shipping and as free merchants”

    Faced with all this stuff online and in the history books, it’s hardly surprising that I end up with the wrong impression, now is it Alf?

  272. Ron Clark

    Wings has been fucked since the Ellis/Main tag team appeared on it.

    And every Troll since then has had the same condescending (you’re a thicko) theme to their posts.

    That is why it’s so easy to spot who is part of their Troll team of names.

  273. Pat Blake

    James Che and supporters. In 2014 Scotland’s people voted by a majority to be in the Union. Doesn’t a modern democratic event outweigh any 300 year act, even assuming your theory is correct?

    If modern decisions can be overturned by ancient actions of the elite or royalty or warfare, then what else that you consider fixed could be upended?

  274. John Main

    @Ron Clark says:31 May, 2023 at 8:17 am

    anti EU, Pro Uk-rain, anti Ruskia

    Ah come on now Ted. You’ve converted me to anti Uk-rain, pro Ruskia, so there’s a start.

    But as the EU itself is Pro Uk-rain, anti Ruskia, I can’t quite see how we can also be pro EU.

    Somebody somewhere is just “too stupid” to understand that simple logic, and I don’t think it’s me. Let’s hope it’s not a majority of Scots!

  275. Scot

    Can the Scottish Press please take up the baton and lead on whether Sturgeon has given evidence and if not why not?
    The fraud and cover-up in Scotland’s governing party is a national scandal.
    The press can’t be hiding now.
    It is their duty to open it up into the public discourse.
    We depend on the Press to hold the government to account.

  276. Garavelli Princip

    Pat Blake,

    In 2014 a majority of Scots in fact voted for independence.

    They were scuppered by the votes of foreigners, mainly English colonial settlers and second home owners living in Scotland.

    Scottish self determination was denied.

    This MUST not be allowed to happen again!

  277. Northcode

    This might be useful advice for those attempting to persuade others to their view.

    In classical rhetoric, the purpose of the exordium is to put the audience into a receptive and attentive frame of mind.

    Etymology: From the Latin, “beginning”.
    Plural: exordia.

    From John Milton:

    “The noblest masters of rhetoric have left behind them in various screeds a maxim which can hardly have escaped you, my academic friends, and which says that in every type of speech–demonstrative, deliberative, or judicial–the opening should be designed to win the goodwill of the audience.

    On those terms only can the minds of the auditors be made responsive and the cause that the speaker has at heart be won.”

    Exordium of John Milton’s Address to His Classmates (An Academic Exercise)

    The Rev. Martin Luther King Jr used it in his famous ‘I have a Dream’ speech he made on the 28th Aug, 1963.

    His exordium [paragraphs 2-5] breaks down into two parts, both of which make a similar syllogistic argument while shifting its major premise.

    The syllogism takes the form of:
    (a) America consists of a promise of freedom,
    (b) The Afro-American in America still is not free,
    (c) America has defaulted on its promise.

    The major premise of the first argument is that the ‘Emancipation Proclamation’ constituted a promise of freedom for Afro-Americans.
    The major premise of the second argument is that the foundation of America as expressed in the ‘Declaration of Independence and Constitution’ contained such a promise.

    In both cases, King argued, the promise was not fulfilled.

    “King’s exordium is essentially moderate. This is necessary because he must win the attention and trust of his audience before he can make his more militant plea. Having established his ethos, King is now ready for confrontation.”

    (Nathan W. Schlueter, One Dream or Two? Lexington Books, 2002)

  278. chic.mcgregor

    Alf Baird

    On colonialism in India, whatever the dreadful historical facts were, of more importance is how modern Indians regard their past relationship with the British Empire.

    That, of course, is not an easy thing for us here to find out. You would really need to live there for a while or do lots of research on opinion polls, newspaper articles, books on the subject etc. A prohibitively time consuming task for most of us.

    However, I recently experienced something which I believe has given me some insight into modern Indian attitudes to their past relationship with the Raj.

    It is the recent blockbuster film, RRR. I can’t recommend this film highly enough just as a film. The epic scope of the tale, the cinematography, the production values especially the CGI work. It is spectacular.

    The political backdrop, is the Indian struggle for independence.
    although the two heroes are named after actual historical resistance leaders it makes no claim of historical accuracy.

    It has clearly been constructed to be blockbuster so is a melange of past film success models, from the poignancy of Braveheart, the use of ‘enhanced’ choreography martial arts, hints of superhero references and has reference to Indian legend and mythology throughout with the two heroes eventually even taking on some of the powers of Indian deities. It has been built for commercial success. But part of that striving for commercial success is that the producers and director and screenwriters must, absolutely, take into account popular opinion when it comes to portraying the underlying political message.

    In a way, you are viewing the fruits of their extensive research labours delivered in a highly entertaining format. I suspect that what you see is a fairly accurate condensed depiction of the attitude of modern Indians to their association with the British Raj.

    Now the point I set out to make and have eventually got to is that although the term ‘British’ is used in the film they also refer to the English or the English Empire. Indeed one scene near the end depicts a burning banner emblazened with “The Sun never sets on the ENGLISH Empire.” (my emphasis). Furthermore, there are no Scots accents used by any of the soldiers, or other Raj characters.

    It may be they just consider Scots too unimportant but I dunno.

    I urge again, folk to catch this film and see if you agree.
    Don’t be put off by the little bit of Bollywood choreography here and there which can feel incongruous to some, it serves to lighten what would otherwise be the relentlessly gruelling struggle for freedom depicted.

  279. Ian Smith

    Scot says:
    31 May, 2023 at 10:26 am
    Can the Scottish Press please take up the baton and lead on whether Sturgeon has given evidence and if not why not?

    The SNP have held power for too long. Police, legal system and media are all lead by people whose positions are directly or indirectly relying on the political patronage and access. None of them want to upset the applecart.

  280. robertkknight


    Is it possible to become a foster carer if you’ve got a criminal record? (Asking for a friend).

  281. Thistle Bristle

    I expect that NS will be questioned, but whether under arrest or not I am uncertain. I think whoever runs this show may be taking careful stock of their own known facts, also facts in the public domain now, and also the public mood – as far as that can be guaged or ptedicted (which may be less far than they’d like.

    Any direct, overt, decisive move against NS/SNP might be useful to Unionists but might also (if misjudged, they may fear) trigger a sudden surge of support for independence.. whether calling ‘fix/martyr/,etc’ or just seeing the SNP finally as the hopeless case it long has been, so going all-out for the alternatives, no longer holding back or hedging bets.
    Tricky call.

    It’s also unsustainable to hedge or delay forever, having come this far (with police investigation, arrests, resignations, etc.)

    Finally, I really hope for NS (and some other key figures) to be already under close continual surveillance, to beon suicide watch.. from various quarters.

    ..Since it seems to me that those who are complicit and/or delusional, have much to lose and much they could tell, and might opt for a sudden exit.

    ..Or be found expedient to be removed by force with the appearance of suicide.

    In different vein, the late Willie McRae comes to mind.

  282. Iain mhor

    @Alf Baird 11:06pm

    I appreciate the input, and I do understand the concepts of colonialism.
    I think we are on stronger common ground with your example considering: “(a) peoples quest for self-determination…is a fight for a national culture against the scourge of colonialism..” but not much stronger.

    Certainly that seeks to put anti-colonialism in some context, but falls far short of defining culture.

    I don’t think culture can be precisely quantified, and qualified perhaps only in vague terms. I believe it to be a nebulous thing – much like the particle – it’s a hazy cloud of probability (if not possibility) and the act of trying to measure one part, collapses another.

    We know it’s there, feel it’s there – putting our finger on it is another thing entirely. Shetlanders don’t share Central belt culture etc, which one is THE Scottish culture?

    Amerindians were mentioned elsewhere; we have an idea of “Indian” culture but I doubt (like almost all early peoples) they themselves had considered a homogenous culture existed.

    Adjacent tribes held to different cultures; when they weren’t at each others throats, they may have recognised they had a vaguely similar lifestyle, but certainly didn’t share a common language, or even religion.

    A familiar scenario, because Scotland has been there, England has – everywhere has – and one can argue the same for any region on the planet. Colonialism occurs as soon as two people come together, far less a family, tribe, or nation.
    When I was married I became colonised.
    It could (should?) have been the opposite, but I think it was me who was definitely colonised!

    Inevitably there is some compromising of an inherent ‘mindset’ and the imposing of something ‘other’ by someone ‘else’. It naturally, can only go so far before the dilution, and compromise morphs into something ‘other’ again – becomes a new cultural unit.
    When that occurs, we are forced to look and discover what the earliest common denominator was, and what the collective common denominator now is, and if anything of the earliest denominator(s) actually remains – a very, very difficult thing indeed.

    With a ‘nation’ It wouldn’t be language, for that would initially be disparate, now it is language (or is it?) Was it dress, religion, agrarian v nomadic? It’s all very difficult.

    Something has always imposed itself and altered what went before. Even gaining Independence is ironically, a form of colonialism against the colonised.

    I had suggested culture is defined more by what we are not, than what we are. I think it lends itself well to that definition you gave an example of: “a fight against (imposition)”

    Perhaps that is key to our current struggle for Independence – did Unionism (barely) win out in 2014 through simple framing? ‘Here is what We are against: breakup of the unit’ (the imposition of it) as opposed to Our complicated litany of what We were for (culture)

    For sure, the Unionist argument also tried to define what it collectively was – its ‘culture’ – and Independence campaigning also framed the struggle with what We are against (the imposition of rule) but I’d argue that is possibly where they were weakest, and where we were strongest.

    We were both weaker in argument straying into what We are, and what We seek to be (attempting to define culture) for that, as I’ve argued, is a nebulous thing, but we both knew what we were against, that was easy – imposition.

    Someone ‘other’ is attempting to impose something ‘else’ that’s all that mattered – defining it didn’t matter at all – far too nebulous.
    Framing it as a power struggle was/is far easier, because no-one need ask what the ‘power’ protects, or preserves – frankly no-one wants to, because no-one can define it.

    Culture, we know it when we see it, but don’t ask anyone to explain it.

  283. Northcode

    @chic.mcgregor 10:39am

    Great post, chic.mcgregor.

    You might be aware that I sometimes use movies to show the use of various rhetorical figures of speech.

    A movie, when well made, can be a stunningly effective educational tool.

    Presenting a powerful argument with images, words, and music will often be more effective than a speech, no matter how good, or a couple of dozen dry books on the subject.

    I haven’t seen the movie you refer to, but I will definitely watch it as soon as I get the chance.

    Your comment is excellently structured and your main point expertly delivered.

    Your point being that modern Indians do not see the Scots as being complicit in the colonisation and plunder of their country.

    And having had very good working relationships with a number of Indians, I can personally attest to the veracity of your point.

  284. John Main

    trigger a sudden surge of support for independence.. whether calling ‘fix/martyr/,etc’

    There was an innarestin article on Unherd yesterday, may still be up.

    It concerned the fiscal improprieties that are tearing apart one strand of the lucrative BLM movement across the pond. These dudes did it proper: millions of dollars in donations, vast “wages” paid to “insiders”, mansions bought for cash, not glorified caravans.

    Anyways, the perps are now loudly claiming that the laws on fiscal probity, proper accounting, records keeping, etc. have been “weaponised” by their opponents to do them down.

    Could it happen here?

  285. Alf Baird

    John Main @ 9:28 am

    “a disproportionate number of Scots came to fill positions in the East India Company”

    With Scotland ‘out of the game’ internationally and lacking in sufficient opportunity or development domestically after 1707, those from ‘the best families’ were known to write to Henry Dundas (Minister for the Colonies) to seek such Imperial positions for their offspring. However, also worth remembering that ‘English Studies’ was rolled out in India before Scotland, creating its own Anglo-Indian administrative group.

    Using a colonized group as ‘administrative functionaries’ in an acquired territory was clearly a feature. One only has to look at Holyrood/SG.

  286. dean

    You missed option 4. They want to be seen to be doing something. Everyone knows she said that so it would be massively surprising if the video just came to light now. It reminds me of the scene in the life of Brian when the Romans all pile into the shack to search it 3 times then for appearances sake find a brush.

  287. Ian Brotherhood

    @chic.mcgregor (10.39) –

    Thanks for the heads-up, looks interesting.

    While I’m here I can heartily recommend Sisu, about an angry auld Laplander. Good grisly fun.


  288. Bobbyp

    Would’nt be surprised if that missing £600,000 turned up in the Snp accounts, after all it would be in westminsters interests to see the snp get re-elected as polls are high for independence, and keep kicking that indy can further down the road.

  289. Breeks

    chic.mcgregor says:
    31 May, 2023 at 10:39 am
    Alf Baird

    On colonialism in India, whatever the dreadful historical facts were, of more importance is how modern Indians regard their past relationship with the British Empire…

    Thing is, I don’t believe that’s the whole story. It’s not just about what the British Empire was, but European Colonialism and what became “The West”, – particularly after WW2 and the hegemony of the dollar.

    I know it isn’t at all scientific, (and I can’t even swear to it’s accuracy), but as nothing more than a curiosity, this ostensibly harmless clip compares the number of engineers produced by nations over the past 30 years. (And typically, what does it signify when a nation needs engineers?)

    Towards the end, particularly when you see Brazil begin to gallop up the list, it’s very hard not to see the BRICS nations coming to the fore.

    It started off quietly, but there is something seismic happening, and a new era of economic dominance is on the horizon. It becomes more and more difficult to see it “not” happening.

    Arguably, the West has not been very wise with it’s decades of dominance, and it might have been better served by a much more equitable attitude and disposition towards developing nations. The opportunities were certainly there, but very few were embraced.

    It’s arguable of course, but I don’t believe BRICS nations are as hostile to the West as the West believes them to be, but that could easily change given events in Europe and the Middle East, where antipathy towards the West and US / UK in particular could be profoundly difficult for decades to come.

    The other ticking time bomb is Israel.

    Frankly, between the US, UK and Israel, the rest of the World has decided upon it’s unholy trinity against whom to unite, and as we enter this transition, neither the US nor the UK seem remotely interested in putting their own hollowed out economies in order.

    Scotland needs to get out of the UK, and as I’ve often said, engineer itself into becoming the Istanbul of Western Europe, channelling global trade (an influence), in and out of Europe through a deep water freight facility at Scapa Flow, and an open and welcoming disposition towards trade from all nations, BRICS nations, and EU nations in particular.

    Furthermore, (though I firmly believe they won’t do it), I believe the US and London UK Government needs persuaded to recognise an Independent Scotland could be a vital and essential intermediary between the West on a declining trajectory and BRICS on an ascending trajectory. Scotland really could be a vital peace broker and intermediary in the process.

    Istanbul has historically thrived because it existed at the confluence of trade from three Continents. Scotland, with the GIUK gap as our Bosporus, and Scapa Flow developed as an important node in maritime freight, needs to be bold and think big, and as I say, style itself as the Istanbul of Western Europe, where East meets West, Europe meets BRICS, and bulk container ships from all over the globe see Scapa Flow as a freight distribution centre for through trade.

    What Scotland MUSTN’T do, is yap like a poodle with the US and Westminster governments pulling our chain.

    When Sturgeon called for a no-fly zone in Eastern Europe, she put Scotland’s future in even greater risk than when she squandered our opportunity for Independence through BREXIT. Thank God Sturgeon is out the driving seat, but Yousaf is another non-entity on the road to nowhere.

    Devolution WON’T deliver this. We need to sit the whole of Scotland in Joe 90’s chair and change the whole brain pattern in all our heads. Stop people watching the BBC indoctrination. Joe 90 might be fiction, but the BBC’s mind control is very real and totally unrestrained.

    Scotland NEEDS a bold and progressive government which sees Independence merely as our first essential step. We must take command of our fate as a NATION which thinks and acts for itself, or be doomed by the folly of London rule and our supine compliance with their idiocy.

    There is a Tsunami coming, and Scotland will either ride the crest of the wave, or be swamped by it.

  290. John Main

    @Northcode says:31 May, 2023 at 11:21 am

    Your point being that modern Indians do not see the Scots as being complicit in the colonisation and plunder of their country.

    And having had very good working relationships with a number of Indians, I can personally attest to the veracity of your point

    That’s a win-win for Scotland then. All the benefits of being a coloniser for centuries, but escaping all of the blame.

    Good too, to hear that modern Indians aren’t so daft as to bear a grudge for things that happened before they were born, against those who weren’t born at the time these things happened. No wonder their country is on the up.

    Off Topic, the last time I was in Jamaica, I filled a post card with the names of all of the towns and villages I visited, in order to confuse my daughter into thinking I was in Scotland. You’ve guessed it – every Jamaican town and village I wrote down was originally a Scottish place name. A similar game can be played in Canada, New Zealand, etc. etc.

    But see thon colonialism malarky – it wisnae us Scots!

  291. A Scot Abroad

    Here’s an academic writing (from a pro-Indy perspective) a thought-provoking piece about Scots colonialisation of other peoples, and the nuances of the relationship with England.

    Let’s not forget, Edinburgh’s and Glasgow’s fine squares and wealth were built by Scotsmen who had profited from the Empire, trade and colonisation.

  292. fruitella the hun

    Twathater: “I want honesty and integrity for all public SERVANTS, and when the person at any level has broken these conditions I want them sacked and any pension entitlement removed”

    Your post goes to the core. Who would judge that loss of pension rights was appropriate? It means loss of savings, reclaiming pay already, em, paid.

    Would it be line managers, compliance officers, the police and courts? Should it apply to the state pensions as well? If not why not?

    Perhaps the biggest ideological difference between greens and reds is that greens (the original Ecology party ones) looked to control “the human condition” by keeping things small. Damage done by greed, venality, addiction n etc. would be limited, contained, reversable.

    The folk who imagine vast, integrated systems that they believe will eliminate poverty and war, they need to change human nature to iron these supposed defects out (they are characteristics that have evolved, like courage and modesty, to meet our circumstances). They are the communists – and this is why they pay so much attention to cultural and behavioural issues and the media that handles them – MSM, online, but also schools and unis.

    The folk who simply bear down hard on behaviour judged inappropriate to their grand schemes are, loosely, the fascists.

    Whether those vexed by human “failings” end up supporting the authoritarian left (because communists don’t stick with newspapers and schools, they bear down hard too, given power, when their non-violent persuasion fails) or the authoritarian right is likely a matter of particular local circumstances.

    I expect you will be annoyed at me linking your yearning for decency and probity and consequences with authoritarianism. Is’s not the intent, it’s the method. I guess I’m getting a bit fed up with the persistent smear by some posters from their moral high horse that all environmental stuff is born of perversion and stupidity because of a couple of recent stupid or perverse policies – again more in execution than intent.

    Please keep in mind that it is a communist group running the Scottish Green Party. I’ve provided adequate evidence in previous posts. I suspect most of the old-style Eco party people have left or just engage in local projects.

    Then there’s Joe and his notion of intelligence. Once he’s explained how intelligence is measured could he go on to give examples of the good work done by folk who measure higher up that scale compared to those lower down? Then concentrate on the harm done by each. I could do with a laugh.

  293. James Che


    I understand what you are saying and the perspective you are coming from, regarding breaches that were made by Westminster regards MPs.

    The attention to detail here is important,

    If the treaty had proceeded then after wards Westminster breached it repeatedly.

    The Cruix of the detail however is the treaty never came to pass the first instance.
    For as Westminster parliament state on their site.
    The Scottish parliament extinguished itself by AGREEING to the UNION,
    A very Short time later as records in Westminster show Queen Anne the monarch at the time also dissolved the Scottish Parliament From the treaty of union in her proclamation in Westminster.

    From the dates and records it can be discovered the parliamentary union never proceeded to a actual union, as one of ONLY two participants that were to create the union was cancelled by the others “terms” of the AGREEMENT.

    The sole entrant into the Great British Government was Englands old parliament of Westminster,

    There has been no treaty of union since the “Terms of the Agreement”was ratified in 1707 by both the English parliament and the Scottish parliament individually.

    The Scottish 1707 parliament after having been extinguished from the treaty of union by the terms of the Agreement that were ratified and then later dissolved from it.

    Later under Scots laws and still not in a union with Westminster adjourned its own parliament in Scotland under Sine Die,
    Note: records show that It was not the Monarch (Queen Anne ) that closed the parliament of Scotland in 1707.

    As far as historical records show in Westminsters parliament records and in Scotlands historical records it was the “terms of the Agreement” that were the preventive measure that ensured there was no parliamentary union between Scotland and England.
    This is statement on the Westminster parliament site in 2023.

    Thus any breaches or supposed breach’s of a DISCONTINUED Union treaty that was thwarted by the Terms of the Agreement once ratified by both parties,
    It is only important if We (Scotland) had Continued to become a partner in a Parliamentary union.
    We did not, the terms of Agreement that eere ratified stopped Us.

    The only reason that can be assumed from then terms of Agreement is that some Commissioners on both sides had their doubts as to wether they wanted the union,
    Indeed there was a discussion in Westminster barely a year later to extract themselves from a treaty that had never concluded unbeknown to them.

    The presumption made by many in regards to a union having taken place has suited the old English Westminster parliament to this day.

    And Westminster parliament has had no financial interest in informing Scotland that they had been extinguished from the treaty of parliamentary unions so early on as the 1707 ratification.

    Until The UK parliament think Tanks decided to brag about it to the rest of the World in 2022 and 2023.

    Indeed Scotland agreed to the terms of the Agreement , So did England,

    There is and has been no Union to breach since the ratification of those terms of By both parliaments in 1707.

  294. Alf Baird

    chic.mcgregor @ 10:39 am

    “Now the point I set out to make and have eventually got to is that although the term ‘British’ is used in the film they also refer to the English or the English Empire.”

    Yes, Indian professionals I have worked with sent their offspring to expensive British (incl. Scottish) universities because they were getting what they considered a ‘higher status degree from an English university”. This ‘distinction’, and with ‘Scotland’ more or less invisible, appeared (still even today) to set native elites apart from (poorer) Indians studying in their own homeland.

    Paradoxically, perhaps, a Hong Kong business contact I knew called his firm by a Scottish surname because he considered that the Scots were highly regarded in Asia, or certain parts of Asia. He also sent his offspring to private schools in Scotland, and then on to elite uni’s here, also seeking ‘higher status’ of what is still essentially viewed as an English education.

    These appear rather common examples of how the psychology of colonialism influences the behaviour especially of elite native groups in colonial societies, the latter seeking to create as much socio-economic and cultural distance between themselves and the mass of an indigenous native population. Today’s UK meritocratic elite, including those in politics, appears to be a further reflection of this ongoing feature.

  295. John Main

    @Breeks says:31 May, 2023 at 12:20 pm

    Scotland NEEDS a bold and progressive government

    You had me clapping and singing alone, even past your Brexit dig, until here.

    Maybes tell us all about the progressive governments that make up the BRICS nations, eh? Maybes explain away the damage done to Scotland and Indy by our own government’s progressive policies?

    BTW, if Brexit continues to be the running sore for you, how do you see the impending face-off between the EU and BRICS? Maybes not being in the EU will be long-term best for Scotland after all, if our future really does lie with BRICS.

    But dinna fash, Breeks. I now just know in my water that Scotland and Indy’s best hopes lie with the destruction of other independent nations and the victory of vile, aggressive, imperialist, murdering, raping colonisers.

    I just don’t how to put that instinctive knowledge down in words, so that I can work with you to persuade more Scots of that manifest truth. Help us out here, Breeks, please.

  296. Effijy

    Just reading about yet another Brexit disaster heralded by the Tories as Historic.

    A new trade agreement with Australia and New Zealand is now without tariffs.
    Tory Minister George Eustice admits it’s not actually a good deal as the U.K. gave too much away.

    No doubt an exaggerated estimate shows it could increased GDP by 0.08 of a percentage point.

    So what we have is a terrible deal for U.K. farmers, the shipped foods will obviously be frozen to transport and the carbon footprint on a 12,000 mile journey can’t help our Green credentials.

    I love this bit being a Scot-
    U.K. government sending the other governments gifts to show what they can now by from the U.K.
    Welsh Whisky, Brighton Gin, a Signed English Cricket shirt and a Welsh signed rugby shirt along with a Gray’s of Cambridge tennis racket.

    Has any Scottish Party shot down mountain of manure and laughed out loud in parliament
    at Kemi Badenoch who proclaimed business across the country will rejoice as they reap the benefits of being an independent nation.

    So independence is good when it’s bad in England but in Scotland you just couldn’t consider it anyway as we stripped you of any powers.

  297. Anton Decadent

    How multiculturalism really works.

  298. John Main


    Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa.

    Woo hoo! Let’s hear it for the exemplars of progressive politics and Scotland’s future role models!

  299. Confused

    groundhog day

    – scottish energy resources are worthless to Scotland in Scots hand, but enormously important to the UK and the EU in their hands

    this is just cognitive dissonace and chutzpah

    – the scots dun empire

    they were given an offer they couldn’t refuse; the majority could be workers or soldiers, the middle class technocrats and administrator; one group – the unionist who sold us out, were allowed to wet their beaks

    slavery and empire is a unionist enterprise, exlusively

    – the scots dun slavery

    no, they didn’t; the poor of glasgow/edinburgh did not own shares in the slave ships.

    the unionists who did make money out of slavery used their profits to buy vast estates, further dispossessing the scots; scots were secondary victims of the slave trade

    (jews killed other jews in the holocaust, did you know that? the sonderkommando – but so what, the context is kinda-obvious)

    – darien!

    every commonly believed “fact” about this is false; there is even an article on wings about it

    – what is culture anyway

    the english are allowed one without further enquiry, even if it amounts to – egg and chips, jane austen costume dramas and upper class buggery

    – what is all this ancient guff anyway
    – its 300 years ago

    the anglos seem to have a hardon for it – magna carta 1215 (debts owed to jews), common law (grazing your goat on the commons) – almost makes them think it DEFINES WHO AND WHAT THEY ARE

    – scotland was abolished in the act of union

    then so was England. Now go try telling them that – tell Nigel Farage and Rees Mogg.

    note how none of this is ever inflicted on the english for whom an identity, a country whose culture is unquestionable.

    Thinking you have to respond to this crap is cringe-worthy, and also shows why you need to just stop talking to anglo cunts. They are half wit vermin.

    – we even have a fucking squaddie trying to hold forth with his opinions; military men are given cartoonish caricatures of reality, shorn of complexity, to make them operate better; they need to know the dangerous end of the bang-stick and who is the current bad guy, that is all. This mental excrement is spoon fed to them by the “ruperts” who they worship as gods. Military men, when they finally get clued in – Smedley Butler, David Hackworth – do so rather late in the day.

    The BTL right now is like the H blocks once the prisoners went on dirty protest – we have the same people every day enthusiastically smearing the walls while “another group” telling them how sweet it smells.

    Might write a long one on anglo gaslighting and national character; but the main point is – people making these crap arguments, there is no end to it, and if you are just reacting all the time, you are just playing whackamole – you can never get ahead of it, never get to a productive discussion about what is to be done.

  300. James Che

    It is neither here or there how bad Scots were or were not in the past under Colonialism, England was up to there neck in this Colonisation of other Countries, the balance of atrocities from the English Empire wrenched Scottish people from there homes, set fire to them and cuased highland clearance physically and economically for hundreds of years.
    The nation of Ireland also fell to the same fate under England for hundreds of years,

    The Elite in both of those Countries joined the ranks wealthy Elite in England, they had much in common,
    Oppression of the poor. Stealing of their lands and ousting them out of their homes for profit.
    There is no difference between the ( mentality and empathy) ( or lack of it) of a rich man no matter their nationality.
    They cheat… the steal….they use violence…. they make new laws for their own benefits to make it appear legal to console and ease their conscience against crimes of humanity.

    This is still the case today with the WEF, the WHO, DAVOS
    Unelected elites ruining ordinary peoples lives for profit and Control.
    And the Elites managing the parliaments of Britain have joined them exactly the same as the days of old.
    It is not where you come from, it is the history of financial gains, land grabs and profiteering, by deciding which laws to make to benefit the already accumilated wealth further,

    Wealth V Wreaths.

  301. James Che

    John Main.

    Scotland does not have its own government, its legislated from Westminster in England and it is a Corporation,

  302. Northcode

    @Confused 1:10pm

    I like the way you write, confused.

    And I agree with what you’re writing, too.

    And do this:

    “Might write a long one on anglo gaslighting and national character”

    I’d like to know your views.

  303. Confused

    missed a couple

    – brexit is just like indy
    – being in the EU is much worse than being in the UK
    – staying in the UK will protect Scotland against “globalism”

    yeah coz the EU take all your fucking money then hands you back pocketmoney, cents on the dollar, and the euronuke is berthed up the thames, and all the eurotrash swan around telling the brits how much they are “living off german industry” and would not survive in the world without the EU diplomacy to look after their interests, the krauts are buying all the coastal cottages in cornwall, and the french are in the lake district

    … and perversion and multiculturalism is applied uniformly across the west …

    just fuck off.
    A million times – fuck off.

    also, for the miliionth time, everyone – fix your damn paragraphs; 2 [enters] makes a paragraph.

  304. Confused

    there’s more …

    – the international community will not recognise an indy Scotland that fails to fulfill the impossible maze-like legalismic conditions the UK will impose on us

    nah. Because

    everyone hates the english





    if you can’t win a vote at the UN, then you urnae really tryin

    NB in the international community, some opinions are heavier than others; if the yanks have “no objection” you will stroll it. They are a business enterprise, that is all. They want your oil, they want to sell you weapons. They want to play golf and drink whisky.

    – the only way you could fuck it up with the yanks is to call Biden a “senile leprechaun” and announce you want a partnership with the North Koreans to develop a joint ballistic missile program. Short of this, it should be cool. The UK has no “special relationship” with the US, other than that of the bull queer and his punk.

  305. A Scot Abroad

    Most geo-strategists agree that the BRICS countries are highly unlikely to succeed as a bloc, and indeed only Brazil and India have the right demographic pyramid to prosper over the next 50 years. Russia is now a pariah to trade and access to the majority of world markets, China has a catastrophic demography and a debt mountain that the world has never seen before, and South Africa is a completely corrupt basket case that’s beginning to resemble Zimbabwe.

    I don’t think an iScotland would be wise to cosy up to the BRICS.

  306. Northcode

    @Confused 1:52pm

    Confused has just explained , in a single sentence, the long, complex history and origins of the ‘special relationship’ between the UK and America:

    “The UK has no “special relationship” with the US, other than that of the bull queer and his punk.”

    ‘An Explanation of the UK/USA Special Relationship(2023)’ – a paper by Confused

    The shortest academic paper ever written. Brilliant 🙂

  307. Ottomanboi

    The only way to prosper in an imperialist system is to be as much as possible like the imperialist. Talk the talk, walk the walk, bin the skin your in….simple.
    Scotland has to fast reverse the process.

  308. James Che

    When Scotland gets its head around the factual records wrote down throughout history for the past 300 years or more and the statement made by UK parliament that Scotland by its terms of agreement with England are extinguished as the partner to the treaty of union,

    Then many things fall by the wayside regards treaties and agreements made by a Fallacious Treaty of Union that Westminster’s and UK parliament has imposed on the rest of the World,

    Think how this benefits others, not just Scotland.
    Gone are the treaties that cause global gender issues that false government have imposed,
    gone are the hate crime bills,
    gone are 15 minute cities,
    gone are the prospects of eating bugs,
    gone is the Snp and devolved government under the Scotland Act,
    gone is the climate change agenda, and land grabs from farmers.
    gone is the high energy bills.
    gone are any future lockdowns,
    The return of proper policing,
    The return of fair trials with juries.
    The return of children’s safely learning education of the three Rs instead of being indoctrinated perversly.

    All it takes to make many changes and a complete reset for many around the world including Scotland, is to acknowledge that Scotland was extinguished from a union with England in 1707 accordingly and there is no such entity as the united kingdom of of Great Britain.
    The fault lies with the terms of Agreement made by the Commissioners and ratified by both parliaments.
    It is posted on the UK parliament site as a record for all the world to see the past two years at least as far as I am aware of,

    Not only would it be difficult for Westminster parliament to challenge this, as it was they that announced it to the world, not Scotland,
    But there has been no Scottish parliament since 1707 to be challenged.
    There has been no Scottish representatives in Westminster Parliament from the Extinguished Scottish parliament since 1707.
    The terms of Agreement that was ratified by both Countries extinguish the parliament of Scotland from all breaches of a fallacious treaty after 1707.

    The Supreme Court would hold no Sway legally in Scotland, as Scotland returned automatically to a independent Country in 1707.
    The international Community rather than judging Scotland would be Judging Westminster parliament on the Fallacious treaty fraud played upon them, the international Community.

    I understand Xaracens view on breaches of the treaty from Westminster, and how that would play out, but only to the extent if the treaty of union was a actual fact, and not fallicious.

  309. James Che

    Scotland is controlled by two Westminster governments, the devolved government from Westminster and the Westminster government it self.

    None of these are legal in Scotland since both kingdoms and their parliaments ratified the terms of Agreement in 1707.

  310. James Che

    England would have a instant Brexit from the EU, if Scotland Reclaimed itself.
    For England on its own did not enter a treaty with the EU,
    It entered under the fallacious treaty of a united kingdom/S.

    England would instantly regain its Sovereignty from EU laws.

    Many south of the border that protest about Scotland being independent that wanted England to be independent from the EU hold themselves back from attaining their vote results, as long as they try remaining a UK entitiy.

  311. A Scot Abroad

    James Che,

    an open and honest question. Has anybody at all with some authority to do something about your interpretations ever taken them seriously? Have you taken them to an Advocate? A political representative to raise in Holyrood or Westminster? Have you raised a petition? Given an interview to the media? Or do you just write about them on here?

    Because, frankly, just posting your interpretations of ancient guff on WoS isn’t going to change anything. At all.

  312. David Hannah

    When do we get to look at the SNPs cooked books?

    Now that the dentist that can’t file it’s own accounts has filed the SNP accounts?

  313. James Che


    Scotland could fast reverse the process. And gain much support from around the World in doing so.

  314. David Hannah

    £1.2 million is a huge amount of cash.

    The UK Government should be going over the boots with a UV light before they hand over the corruption money to it’s colonial vichy scot administrators.

  315. Red

    Effigy – So what we have is a terrible deal for U.K. farmers,

    Good. Markets are about satisfying consumers, not producers. And especially not producers who are already generously subsidised by the taxpayer. (I have yet to meet a poor fermer)

    We have 2.4 million adults working in Scotland. Only about 3% of them work in agriculture. But 100% of us have to eat.

    We should simply have free trade in foodstuffs. Makes no sense to charge ourselves tariffs on vital imports.

  316. President Xiden

    Well done Glasgow’s SNP council for implementing the LEZ scheme which will mainly impact on the poor. Even the Tories couldn’t have dreamt this tax on the poor up. Remember folks, women can have penises and if you can’t afford a newish car then f*** off. Vote SNP.

  317. James Jones

    So miraculously and in the nick of time the SNP accounts are in, and with a clean bill of health. Who audits the auditors?

  318. Ian Smith

    England and the UK are already out of the EU and any remaining laws are only those they have not chosen to repeal or replace and any other regulatory restrictions are those that they chose to conform to as part of the leaving negotiations.

    It would not matter what Scotland did. They would still chose to be as close or as separate as they were able to negotiate and the electorate pushed for.

    If anything the complications of Scotland trying to join the EU or EFTA, and the process of disentangling currently common assets, would more likely tie them closer to the EU.

  319. Ottomanboi

    That Scotland-England political union was secured through bribery and corruption in Scotland’s government, even by today’s standards it would be illegal. However, that is academic.
    Isn’t it time to pass on to century 21 and deal with the current questionable set up?

  320. lothianlad

    NuSNP corruption. Never thought id see the day they would sell out Scotland.

    Do they realize or care that their legacy will be worse than the sell outs of 1707?

  321. twathater

    @ Confused 1.10pm you never fail to elicit a laugh whilst hitting the nail firmly on the head

  322. Northcode

    @Confused 1:10pm

    You make this point:

    “– the scots dun slavery

    no, they didn’t; the poor of glasgow/edinburgh did not own shares in the slave ships.”

    I believe most Scots were forced into supporting the British Empire, being a colonised people and all.

    And forced to move to newly created industrial cities like Glasgow just to make a living.

    I suspect only a tiny percentage of the total Scottish population directly profited from the activities of the empire.

    And I don’t count getting a meagre subsistence wage whilst living in overcrowded tenements and slaving away 12 hours a day building the empires ships and trains and weapons of war, directly benefiting.

    Of course some Scots benefited enormously, but most didn’t.

    And I suppose it’s fair to say some Scots were directly involved in the enslavement and exploitation of the indigenous peoples of nations subject to Britain’s colonial rule.

    It’s also fair to say the vast majority of Scots weren’t – and didn’t have a say in it anyway.

    That’ll be those Scots who, as ‘A Scot Abroad’ has said previously, were too lazy and too stupid and too weak to ruthlessly exploit, and take advantage of , their fellow human beings while they had the chance – suckers.

  323. Alf Baird

    Ottomanboi says:
    31 May, 2023 at 2:47 pm

    “The only way to prosper in an imperialist system is to be as much as possible like the imperialist.”

    Postcolonial theory refers to this as the oppressed native “mimicking the colonizer”, to be like this fine model in all respects, and “to finally disappear in him” (Albert Memmi).

  324. Scot

    The SNP clearly hold the levers of power in Scotland and so is able to quash any enquiry into its affairs.
    However if as seems likely it does badly at the next elections, this will change.

    The Scottish people are not daft.
    They can see that currently the police, courts and press have been infiltrated by the SNP machine which ensures that its image and that of its leaders is not tarnished.

  325. Xaracen

    James Che said;

    “For as Westminster parliament state on their site.
    The Scottish parliament extinguished itself by AGREEING to the UNION”

    Yes, James, I fully agree that it did that, once it had ratified the Treaty, but it is important that you understand that the English parliament did exactly the same thing, it just did it in a different way and at a different time! The Scottish Parliament just prorogued itself, while the English Parliament just renamed itself.

    But that renaming wasn’t just a ploy, it was a formal recognition by the English parliament that its old role had ended, and that its new role had commenced, once the Scots MPs turned up, and it signified that in that new role it was now bound to the terms of the Treaty. So neither of the old parliaments survived 1707, and the Treaty never required that either of them would continue to function as they were after the Treaty went live on the 1st May 1707.

    The merging of the two parliaments as the new Parliament of Great Britain was effected entirely by;

    1 both old parliaments ratifying the Treaty;

    2 ending the old Scottish parliament (by prorogation);

    3 ending the old English Parliament (by renamimg itself);

    4 having both kingdoms’ MPs turn up in the new parliament and,

    5 conducting the joint governance of the two territories in line with the Treaty’s terms. All of them.

    The first four of the above points are simple verifiable facts; they all happened, and nobody except you has any significant doubts about them.

    The fifth point was supposed to be the outcome, but as we all know, much of the Treaty’s terms were set aside by the English establishment in favour of the English establishment, which had no intention of letting Scots MPs deny England’s MPs on any matter that England’s MPs/establishment decided they wanted, despite the fact that both partner kingdoms were and still are sovereign equals. And that is the deep failure of the Union.

  326. A Scot Abroad


    if you are going to quote me, quote me exactly, with the words I actually wrote. Don’t invent new words and attribute them to me.

  327. Northcode

    @Alf Baird

    You might have missed my post of 30th May 11:41pm

    This is the key part:

    Also, I’m motivated to improve my Scots. Especially when it comes to writing. And I was wondering if you knew of any good resources, or books, which might help

    Let me know if you’ve come across anything. It would be much appreciated.

  328. Alf Baird

    Breeks @ 12:20 pm

    “Scotland needs to get out of the UK, and as I’ve often said, engineer itself into becoming the Istanbul of Western Europe, channelling global trade (an influence), in and out of Europe through a deep water freight facility at Scapa Flow, and an open and welcoming disposition towards trade from all nations, BRICS nations, and EU nations in particular.”

    Yes Breeks, much as I set out here and elsewhere, and following years researching the subject and working to promote it:

    Scotland has this and other major international maritime/trade opportunities (e.g. catamaran ferries; Cockenzie cruise & ferry port etc) which will only happen after independence and reform of our ports and maritime policies. Until then the Imperial power, offshore corporates and their lackeys in Holyrood/SG will aye haud us back – as Fergus Ewing did when he and his officials funded the ill-fated Pelamis wave machine instead of the proposed container transhipment terminal at Lyness on Hoy back in 2008-9.

  329. Bobbyp

    James Jones 3.25pm. So when you say the snp accounts are in, and with a clean bill of health. Does that include the ‘ringfenced’ £600,000?.

  330. Derek

    “Bobbyp says:
    31 May, 2023 at 4:53 pm

    Does that include the ‘ringfenced’ £600,000?”

    I think that I heard a spokesbod on the radio saying that the accounts that were submitted today were for the Westminster group, so presumably they have no reference to the £600k.

  331. A Scot Abroad

    Alf Baird,

    difficult to see an economic case for a massive container and freight facility at Scapa Flow, when Europe already has several vast freight ports on the North Sea coast, such as Rotterdam, Bremen, and Antwerp, all connected to the European road and rail network.

    As for you championing Scottish ferry building….

    The only thing holding Scotland back is the idiocy of the ideas coming out of the Indy movement.

  332. sam

    Of course Scots dun slavery.

    One Wedderburn was killed at Culloden. Here is
    a bit (there’s more) of what happened next.

    One became a rather famous parliamentarian – died not so long ago – Lord Wedderburn.

    “Son of Sir John Wedderburn of Blackness, 5th bart., who was executed in London in 1746 after fighting at Culloden on the side of the Jacobites. John the Younger had been at Culloden with his father as standard bearer in Lord Ogilvy’s regiment. Following his father’s execution, John Wedderburn, aged 17, fled to France then Jamaica. He was soon joined on the island by his three brothers James, Peter and Alexander. He settled in Westmoreland and fashioned himself as a surgeon, although it is not clear that he had any qualifications. Over the next two decades he prospered. Having been left a significant legacy by a great uncle in Scotland in 1752, John Wedderburn appears to have invested it in purchasing land and slaves in Jamaica. He returned to Scotland in 1763 and set about trying to reassemble the family’s lost estate. By 1766 he was back in Jamaica but remained there only until 1768 when he returned to Scotland permanently and completed the purchase of Balindean, Perthshire. Despite the attainder of his father, John Wedderburn of Balindean used the title as the 6th bart., and official documents sometimes reflected this. Shortly after his death his eldest surviving son and heir, Sir David Wedderburn (q.v.), was once again formally raised to the Baronetcy.

    John Wedderburn married twice. Upon his return from Jamaica in 1769 he married Margaret Ogilvy, eldest daughter of David, Lord Ogilvy (eldest son of John, fourth Earl of Airlie, in whose regiment he had served in 1745). She died in 1775, having had four children: John Wedderburn (1771-83), Margaret Wedderburn (1772-1807) (q.v.), Jean Wedderburn (1773-1861), David Wedderburn (1775-1858).”

  333. John Main

    @Northcode says:31 May, 2023 at 3:55 pm

    Substitute “England” for “Scotland”, “English” for “Scottish” and “Englander” for “Scot”, and there’s hardly another word of your post that needs to be changed to make it true.

    Here’s another wee spanner in your wheel, what with you being “awakened” to colonialism and all.

    See that Scottish diaspora. Ever wondered why there wasn’t an English diaspora, what with the English being Class A colonisers and all. I mean, the conventional wisdom is that pro-rata, far more Scots (and Irish) went abroad, willingly or unwillingly, than English.

    Cleared wholesale to make way for sheep, starved out, you know how it went.

    What did the cleared Scots do when they got to their destinations in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, the Caribbean then? Open creches for the locals?

    I guess you will retain your faith-based belief that we Scots didn’t and don’t do colonisation. That’s the meaning of “faith-based” after all.

    But the awkward facts seem to be that a higher percentage of Scots did colonisation than the percentage of English that did.

    Uh oh!

  334. sam


    Here’s a link to the Ullans magazine. When the Scots moved to the north of Ireland they consciously attempted to maintain Scots words and language. › ullans › index.php

  335. Antoine Roquentin

    @A Scot Abroad 12:27

    Malory Nye’s piece told me nothing that I, and many others, didn’t already know about Jock-on-the-Make during the high-days of colonialism. The point of Nye’s short piece was surely to show those who didn’t already know, how Scots, to varying degrees were, indeed, complicit in the project of Empire. But that tells us nothing about the methodology and readings underpinning your, presumably well researched, position regarding the question: is Scotland a colony of England?

  336. John Main

    @Alf Baird says:31 May, 2023 at 4:00 pm

    Postcolonial theory refers to this as the oppressed native “mimicking the colonizer”

    I don’t doubt that it does, Alf.

    Kirsty’s maw, when Kirsty complains that Tracy is copying her behaviour in the playground, tells her that “imitation is the sincerest form of flattery”.

    Seems to me that over-complication is one of the banes of our times.

  337. Northcode

    @A Scot Abroad 4:11pm

    I didn’t quote you. I wrote down the sentiment I felt you had expressed in some of your previous posts.

    This is what I said:

    That’ll be those Scots who, as ‘A Scot Abroad’ has said previously, were too lazy and too stupid and too weak to ruthlessly exploit, and take advantage of, their fellow human beings while they had the chance

    But I accept your point. I should have written: ‘as ‘A Scot Abroad’ has implied previously’.

    And it’s possible I might have interpreted some of what you said in your previous posts incorrectly, but what I wrote is what I inferred from some of your comments.

    By all means correct me if you feel I’ve misunderstood what you were trying to say.

  338. Iain mhor

    @Northcode 3:55pm

    The plebs were involved in slavery, but only so far as they were the slaves.
    The first slaves came from these shores – (why buy when you have a ready supply to hand) It’s only because they died swiftly in the tropical plantations – in the hundreds, and in short order – that the merchants looked to slaves more resilient to the climate, and disease.

    As for Britain ultimately spearheading the ‘fight against slavery’ aye, by using indentured slaves to do it, and only to corner the market. The British navy was effectively, almost entirely manned by ‘impressed men’

    Not to belittle the fate of those millions of *ahem darker skinned slaves, but something to bear in mind next time you may be getting it tight about ‘your role in slavery’ – there’s every chance you are off slave-stock yourself.

    Slavery is slavery, no matter the perpetrators, or what handle it goes by – everyone of every ethnicity was at it then, and still are now.
    Free labour? – I’ll have some of that thank you.

  339. Bobbyp

    Derek 5.13pm ok thanks Derek.

  340. Garavelli Princip

    Absolutely Correct Ian Mhor,

    I was going through the Ayr poor law archives a couple of weeks ago with my wife who was looking at records pertaining to her ancestors from the 18th -20th century – yes right into the 20th century (she had perviously researched mine in the Lanarkshire records).

    Heartbreaking and pathetic wage slaves struggling to bring up families; men killed in the foundries, struggling widows; men being shipped back from Stirlingshire, Lanarkshire etc to their native parish so not to be a burden on the parishes where the migrated to work.

    Discarded after injury, few serving to old age, dying in abject poverty.

    The African slave trade was a catastrophe. The Scottish slaves who made the coal and iron owners rich, are not much talked about.

  341. James Jones

    Bobbyp at 4:53 pm
    “James Jones 3.25pm. So when you say the snp accounts are in, and with a clean bill of health. Does that include the ‘ringfenced’ £600,000?”

    It must be SNP Westminster’s accounts only. According to Sky News,

    ‘The SNP’s next deadline is to file the whole party’s audited accounts with the Electoral Commission by 7 July or risk being fined. AMS Accounting is also carrying out that work.’

  342. Chic Murrays's Chiropodist

    A Scot Abroad @ 31 May, 2023 at 1:52 pm
    Sort out yer ain midden first before you dare to lecture us on ANYTHING.
    When we need advice from a parasite like you. we will ask. Until then GTF and go check on your property prices.

    Your horror at the prospect of the expansion of BRICS tells us all we need to know.
    You gave up any right to call yourself Scots a long time ago.

  343. Northcode

    @Sam 5:39pmpm

    Thanks for the link, Sam. I had no idea there was also Ulster-Scots

    It’s an interesting and confusing area from what I’ve gathered so far.

    But I might be coming at it from the wrong angles, I don’t know yet.

    I’ve come across a couple of books that I’ve only skimmed through so far:

    Scots and its Literature by J. Derrick McClure (John Benjamins Publishing Company)


    Spelling Scots – the orthography of literary Scots, 1700–2000 by Jennifer Bann and John Corbett (Edinburgh University Press)

  344. Dan

    sam says: at 5:39 pm

    When the Scots moved to the north of Ireland they consciously attempted to maintain Scots words and language.

    Seems fair enough and the decent thing to do when they could have over-reached and taken over the local community councils and hijacked the broadcasting platforms to show Forfar Athletic versus East Fife football games from Scotland at the expense of the north of Ireland footie teams.

  345. James Che

    Where do you attain the records from that states the Englands old parliament was extinguished, and what date,
    where are the records that state that Englands Westminster parliament was dissolved and give date.

    The reality is that under the the Triennial Act of Englands old Westminster parliament it continued into its third year and session until 1708 holding continuity of the old English parliament.

    The 1694 Triennial act required the parliament to meet annually and to hold elections once every three years,
    This Act was still partly in force until the end of 2010.

    The last parliament of England held its elections between 7th May 1705 and the 6th of June 1705.

    The next election to take place in Westminster parliament was in 1708, completing the Englands Westminster 1694 Triennial Act that ran for a three year period.

    without elections having taking place in the old parliament of England for new members to be forthcoming for the GB parliament and they were simply transferred by a proclamation of Queen Anne, to the Great British parliament,.

    Thus the same members of the old English parliament were the same members as the british parliament and by the Triennial Act in continuity and by proclamation of the Queen still the same as The old English Westminster parliament
    Queen Annes proclamation can be found in the records of Westminster which I have previously provided.

    There is also continuity in Numbers for Acts passed at the time of Englands Westminster that the parliament of Great Britain continued,

    So if you do not mind it would be of great assistance to provide date from the Westminster parliament of England, the Statement being the same as Scotlands.
    That ” The parliament of England was extinguished ( give Date ) by the ” terms agreed” with Scotland

  346. Dan

    Interesting to see the pathetically weak line cast that historically Scotland was involved in slavery in an attempt to tarnish all the plebs who ultimately hold little if any power, from the very same folk that freely admit they are not aligned with so many of the policies currently being rolled out by powerful Scots.

  347. John Main

    @Iain mhor says:31 May, 2023 at 5:56 pm

    everyone of every ethnicity was at it then, and still are now

    You betcha!

    I recall a historian analysing the price of an adult slave, from Roman times up to now, and concluding that after adjusting for like-for-like spending power, the price had remained remarkably steady for two millennia.

    The economists among us will be able to work out what that means in terms of supply and demand.

    Meantime, next time you are using some website to order groceries, or find out what ScotGov has been told by its “consultation partners” to do next, have a look down the bottom of the Home Page.

    Chances are you’ll find a “Modern Slavery” statement there.

    Maybes we should all take a wee minute to ponder just why that should be necessary.

    Harping back to history, culture etc from further up the thread. Back in the Scotland of my yoof, we didn’t need to worry about Modern Slavery.

    But now we do.

    C’moan somebody. Blame the English for that!

  348. JimuckMac

    There seems to be a lot of governmental leaders stepping down at the moment and taking their chief of police with them.
    Trudeau and Macron next.

  349. John Main


    As I recall it, it started out as a call to get real about Scotland’s colonialist past.

    And to stop claiming colonialism was something done only by the English.

    The argument that most Scots weren’t colonisers is actually weaker than the argument that most English weren’t colonisers.

    Because of the Scottish diaspora – there is no equivalent English diaspora.

    Somehow or other, we are now talking about slavery – a subject that arouses violent emotions when safely confined in the unchangeable past, but sheepish silence when the reality of today’s slavery is mentioned.

    Of course, once we consider the ethnicity of the slavers, both in the past and in the present, we glean a clue into the motives of the violently aroused and the sheepishly self-censored.

    I’ll leave it there.

  350. sam


    Ulster Scots migrated from the north of Ireland because of religious discrimination and also because of the opportunities for a better life.

    One route taken was to the Appalachians where their settlement had a profound influence on the culture there. This from Lees McRae College

    “Much of what we consider to be “Appalachian culture” actually has its roots in 1600s Scotland. At the time, King James I of England was attempting to solidify his rule over Ireland and encourage the spread of Protestantism in the primarily Catholic country. One of his methods for quelling rebellion was to seize land from the Gaelic (or native) Irish in the area known as Ulster and make it the property of the British crown. The goal of this scheme, called the Plantation of Ulster, was to displace the Irish population and turn the land over to Presbyterians from southern Scotland, who would work the land as sharecroppers.

    “This was a dead-end for the Scots-Irish in Northern Ireland because they were essentially powerless,” said Director of the Stephenson Center Kathy Olson. “The new inhabitants of Ireland couldn’t own land and they were required to tithe to the Anglican Church of England—not the national church of Scotland, which was the Presbyterian church.”

    Migration between Scotland and Ireland continued throughout the 1600s as the Scottish Presbyterians, the British Anglicans, and the Irish Catholics fought over land and sovereignty. A wave of Scottish immigrants to Ulster following a famine in the 1690s led to Scottish Presbyterians becoming the majority community; despite their numbers, however, they were denied political power. They resented the restrictions placed on them by the Church of England and turned their attention to a land that promised both economic opportunity and religious freedom.”

  351. Charles (not the R one)

    Everyone alive today should keep in mind that if ANY aspect of history had not happened exactly as it did at the time, then NONE of us presently alive individual persons would ever have been conceived and born. NONE of us would ever have existed!

    One can only conjecture who might have been alive had history been different. BUT, HISTORY CAN NOT BE ALTERED, so here we are, one life each, so best we each make as good a job of it as we can.

    NO-ONE alive today can claim to be a ‘victim’ of slavery that took place 200 and many more more years ago.

    Think it through before condemning me.

  352. Tommo

    Amidst the growing clamour on here to achieve the blessed state of Disadvantage ( whether current or historical)- which of course is the New Privilege- here is a cautionary tale from south of the Border (Wales in this instance).Some few years back nationalists created a movement under the banner ‘Dim Coloneiddio’ (No colonisation) aimed at those parts of Wales where property prices were pushed up by ‘incomers’ to the extent that an unemployed 22-year-old local could not afford even the most rudimentary semi-detached 3-bed with garden and parking space. This rumbled on for some time until-well satisfied with their efforts-the leaders betook themselves off to Patagonia where, it is said, some Welsh language survives among the predominant Spanish tongue and at least English is not the lingua franca. All might have been well until some unkind soul asked- isn’t THIS a colony ?

  353. sam

    Glasgow Centre for Public Health look at the effects of austerity on the UK and say: “another study found that each £100 decline in annual per-person localgovernment funding in England was associated with a decrease in life
    expectancy at birth of 1.3 months.”

    Of course, the Tories made sure that the English Councils with the greatest cuts were those with the most deprived populations.

    GCPH finds the falls in life expectancy among the most deprived in the UK to be “barely believable”.

    Such falls have only been seen before in the two World Wars and the 1918 flu epidemic.

  354. James Jones

    Confused at 1:10 pm,
    “Thinking you have to respond to this crap is cringe-worthy, and also shows why you need to just stop talking to anglo cunts. They are half wit vermin.
    – we even have a fucking squaddie trying to hold forth with his opinions;”

    -and later,


    A useful insight into the independence movement.

    Gotta wonder what the moderation rules are on here if that nasty stuff can get through.

  355. Dan

    @ John Main at 6:55 pm

    But it’s not really the entirety of Scotland’s colonial past though is it John. It’s actually restricted to the much smaller number of powerful Scots and powerful English that ruled over the plebs of the British Isles and wider empire who created the circumstances for the migration of oor ain folk to far flung lands.
    The plebs had little choice in steering such matters, much the same as you, like I, aren’t happy with the actions of oor current parliament administering policies we do not agree with. I don’t imagine you’d be happy to be classed as being aligned with oor leaders and their dodgy ferry procurement, genderwoowoo, and a myriad other corrupted practices.

  356. A Scot Abroad

    Antoine Roquentin, @ 5:42pm,

    I grew up in Scotland, then sought an exciting life mostly abroad in the Army. Edinburgh just felt too parochial for me.

    It still does. I chose not to return to live there when I left the Army for a number of differing reasons, involving love, business opportunities in my speciality, and where friends lived. All the normal reasons, really. I still have family in Perthshire, Edinburgh and Ayr, I still own some property in Edinburgh, and enjoy being there a few times a year. But I have never felt even remotely “colonised” in Scotland. It’s a fiction. And it’s not serving the Indy movement well at all for it to be perpetuated.

  357. Ian Brotherhood

    Whether we are colonised or not, colonisers or not, some of us are more concerned about the pressing need to clarify what is likely to happen if the franchise remains as it is.

    What sources/projections to trust?

    My understanding – and I hope I’m wrong – is that the demographics and psephology, right now, indicate that in another referendum held tomorrow, if there is a similar level of postal voting, we will lose again. (I can’t remember where I read that but I don’t believe it was here – does anyone recall posting a link recently which I may have picked up, perhaps wrongly?)

  358. Derek

    There’s a Scots / Picts / Irish explanation in “1066 And All That” that gradually ties itself in knots; can’t find the book for some reason (found the other three!). Move forward some time and it’s still the same…

  359. Alf Baird

    A Scot Abroad @ 5:16 pm

    “difficult to see an economic case for a massive container and freight facility at Scapa Flow, when Europe already has several vast freight ports on the North Sea coast, such as Rotterdam, Bremen, and Antwerp, all connected to the European road and rail network.”

    The economics of bespoke container ‘transhipment’ seaports primarily depends on the feeder/transhipment markets to be served, and rather less so on hinterland markets requiring landside access. In Northern Europe the transhipment/feeder markets (Baltic, Scandinavia, UK/Ireland, Nordic Atlantic, Iberia) are not located in the Le Havre-Hamburg port range.

    Globally, many similar ‘offshore’ container transhipment hubs are located on islands (Bahamas, Jamaica, Malta, Colombo, Singapore etc). Scapa Flow needs to be viewed in that context, also offering close proximity to a main transit channel (Pentland Firth intersects Atlantic and North Sea) allowing for minimal ship deviation time and distance saving (both mainline and feeder vessels). Natural deep water and existing brownfield site is another feature/competitive advantage, as is overall port and shipping cost reductions, plus reducing dependency on congested and expensive North Sea hubs.

  360. John Main

    @Dan says:31 May, 2023 at 7:25 pm

    Can’t really argue with what you wrote.

    Which is why the historical colonisation debate is nuanced. You have to be prepared to acknowledge there was “voluntary” colonisation, and “forced” colonisation. And of course, still is.

    Not that the historically colonised (dispossessed, discriminated against, legally murdered, scythed down by epidemics) could ever have been expected to make that distinction.

    Not that the present day colonised (priced out of jobs, homes, excluded from the standards of education and healthcare they have paid for, etc) should be expected to make that distinction either.

    And as I wrote a few days ago, then you have reverse colonisation, wildly celebrated by some on here, where the descendants of people who were historically colonised, reckon that gives them carte blanche to colonise us.

    With “us” being, not the descendents of the colonists – they all live abroad in the countries their ancestors colonised – but the descendents of the people who weren’t colonists!

    “Three wrongs make a right” thinking.

  361. A Scot Abroad

    Alf Baird,

    I read your linked article in your earlier comment with interest, but I’m afraid that I remain deeply sceptical of the business case. Not the principles that you lay out, but with the selection of Orkney. It’s just in the wrong place. Further sceptical because Orkney doesn’t have the infrastructure or number of people to operate such a facility. And yet further sceptical because a future iScotland would start off with no trade agreements in place.

    Well over 90% of freight carried by sea with a European origin or destination comes into Atlantic or Mediterranean facing ports, which are well connected to road and rail links. You cannot say that about Orkney. That leaves trans-shipment, but you present no compelling evidence (other than an assertion about great circle routes) that commerce is crying out for that. Brest in France is pretty much the same distance as Orkney from the NE USA, and rather better connected to further infrastructure. Over 2 million French workers within one hour of Brest. A deeper anchorage in the bay, as well. And, of course, France is in the EU.

    Then there’s the possibility of polar passages opening up new routes above Canada and Russia. Fine in theory, but nobody is building 24,000 TEU container ships that are ice-ready. Nobody. In fact, the 24,000 TEU class seems to be slowing down entirely, with 100 ships completed, but only a further 8 on order. Not enough trade to justify the cost.

    The killer for me in your article was that it was all going to be publicly funded. That tells me that nobody in the private sector was convinced enough to put their own money down. And reviewing the other Google hits for the scheme, it was all Quangos, publicly-funded bodies, and a sole industry association paying for all of the discussions. I hope that your time was well-remunerated, but it was an idea going nowhere, very slowly.

  362. Ian Brotherhood

    @A Scot Abroad –

    Can I ask you something, in good faith?

    How many weeks of the year do you feel anyone should spend in Scotland to claim that they are ‘ordinarily resident most of the time’?

    This isn’t a trick question btw, it’s straightforward. If it was a tax-related query it would be cut & dried, no debate. But this appears to be different. I can’t find any definitive answer.

    So what do you think it is, or should be?

  363. A Scot Abroad

    Ian Brotherhood,

    it’s surely a matter of where one declares a principal residence, which (I think) is reasonably well-defined in both HMRC and council tax terms.

    I don’t have a vote in Scotland, as my principal residence is in Norfolk. I suppose that I could engineer that to be different, either in the flat in Edinburgh (inconvenient, as I let it out), or possibly the cottage on my sister’s farm in Perthshire, which she runs as a tourist accommodation. But I don’t see any need to, and then there’s also the matter of income tax, which is a penny or so higher in Scotland.

  364. Beauvais

    A Scot Abroad keeps saying that us nationalists do our indy quest no favours by defining Scotland’s situation as a colonial one. If that is so then why does he, an avowed Britnat, make such efforts to dissuade us from taking a line he claims is so deleterious to our cause?

    Just stop and think to what an enormous extent Scotland’s cultural and economic needs and ambitions are thwarted and hampered again and again by Westminster having the overarching power to say no.

    No you can’t have control over broadcasting, no you can’t have an oil fund, no you can’t build a container port in Scapa Flow. The examples are endless. Scottish ministers have just been told they can’t meet foreign government representatives without being ‘chaperoned’ by a UK minister. As Craig Murray says, that is very far from standard for devolved administrations. A sure sign of colonialism at work.

    There are several varieties of colonialism and Scotland’s predicament is most definitely one of them. But because we are British citizens, have a Scottish parliament and took part in the British Empire this confuses many into assuming that a colonial explanation for Scotland’s last three centuries is invalid.

    That colonial explanation though is undeniable if people merely look at it objectively with an open mind. Colonialism. Internal colonialism, partial colonialism. Whichever variety or hybrid you choose. Still colonialism. The only explanation.

    A Scot Abroad intuitively fears talk of colonialism on Wings and wants it to stop. As Alf Baird often says – I don’t remember who he’s quoting, whether Fanon, Cesaire or Memmi – the realisation of the colonial reality by the colonised is the final stage before liberation.

  365. Northcode

    What kind of man would slice the woman he loves into pieces, and then give a name to each of those dissected body parts?

    A man with a mind so twisted out of shape that, to himself, his actions seem quite rational?

    A man whose love for the object of his desire is so great that he would preserve that love for eternity in his own mad version of a scrap book?

    A man so blighted by his titanic love he has lost all sense of proportion and makes his declaration in the most terrible of ways?

    The answer to all of those questions is, of course, yes.

    That is absolutely the kind of man who would commit such an atrocious crime.

    Only he doesn’t cut up the love of his life with a scalpel, or an axe.

    He writes a poem about her.

    And not any old kind of poem.

    No. It’s much worse. This man is so far beyond rational he deploys the Blazon.

    A figure of speech that in the hands of a madman is a wretched tool of dissection.

    It is Merism gone mad. Mad Merism is really what Blazon is all about.

    Blazon is so over-the-top that Shakespeare resorted to a parody of Thomas Watson’s Hekatompathia (1582) just to show how crazy it could get.

    Hark you that list to hear what saint I serve:
    Her yellow locks exceed the beaten gold;
    Her sparkling eyes in heav’n a place deserve;
    Her forehead high and fair of comely mold;
    Her words are music all of silver sound;
    Her wit so sharp as like can scarce be found;
    Each eyebrow hangs like Iris in the skies;
    Her Eagle’s nose is straight of stately frame;
    On either cheek a Rose and Lily lies;
    Her breath is sweet perfume, or holy flame;
    Her lips more red than any Coral stone;
    Her neck more white than aged Swans that moan;
    Her breast transparent is, like Crystal rock;
    Her fingers long, fit for Apollo’s Lute;
    Her slipper such as Momus dare not mock;
    Her virtues all so great as make me mute:
    What other parts she hath I need not say, Whose face alone is cause of my decay.

    It is extremely unlikely Mr Watson got to see the love of his life’s other parts after that effort.

    And Shakespeare’s parody you might be familiar with:

    My mistress’ eyes are nothing like the sun
    Coral is far more red than her lips’ red;
    If snow be white, why then her breasts are dun;
    If hairs be wires, black wires grow on her head.
    I have seen roses damask’d, red and white, But no such roses see I in her cheeks;
    And in some perfumes is there more delight Than in the breath that from my mistress reeks.
    I love to hear her speak, yet well I know That music hath a far more pleasing sound;
    I grant I never saw a goddess go;
    My mistress, when she walks, treads on the ground:
    And yet, by heaven, I think my love as rare As any she belied with false compare.

    So, Blazon. Get the love of your life some chocolates instead.

  366. Effijy

    Red 3.32

    The Australian farmers can produce at lower cost as they treat the animals very poorly compared to our EU standards.

    What happens to Aussie cheap prices when U.K. farmers pack it in.
    What if foot and mouth or drought results in food shortages for Australians?’

    We can look forward to eating Skippy and Chips for £20 or start eating bugs.

  367. sam

    A couple of questions.

    The funding of Scottish government services such as health and education is not based on need, but population size. Given our geography and demography we would receive more per person if funding was based on need rather than population size.

    The originator of the funding formula has said it is unfair to devolved governments. Does the continuing existence of the Barnett Formula not suggest colonialism is alive and kicking?

    Why was the McCrone Report deliberately hidden from the Scottish population? Does this action suggest asset stripping colonialism?

  368. Bobbyp

    James Jones 6.10pm. Thanks for that info.

  369. A Scot Abroad


    I don’t fear such talk, because it’s palpable nonsense, and it’s only damaging Indy’s cause. You and the others can blether on about it, but it’s increasingly becoming the Muppet Show. Nobody else seems interested in a group of self-defining and whining “victims”.

  370. Alf Baird

    A Scot Abroad @ 8:19 pm

    “Orkney. It’s just in the wrong place.”

    Several Transatlantic services pass by regularly and other services could be diverted away from the more congested English Channel. Feeder ships already transit the area.

    “Orkney doesn’t have the infrastructure”

    The land at Lyness is already reclaimed and just needs a new quay. No rail or road access links are needed for feeder/transhipment, and minimal dredge. Cost of the terminal is less than half a similar terminal in North Sea basin ports, the latter requiring constant river access dredging.

    “or number of people to operate such a facility”

    Such terminals are semi-automated but also could see transfer of labour from agriculture and oil industry likely.

    “further sceptical because a future iScotland would start off with no trade agreements in place”

    An international terminal operating company (TOC) was interested in taking a long term lease; most of the trade would be for other countries (i.e. transhipment), Orkney would not be origin or destination of 95%+ of the traffic.

    “Brest in France is pretty much the same distance as Orkney from the NE USA,”

    Orkney is far closer to major transhipment ports such as Reykjavik, Bergen, Oslo, Baltic, Forth, Belfast etc

    “but nobody is building 24,000 TEU container ships that are ice-ready.”

    Transatlantic trades do nor require ice-class (aside Montreal) and tend to use sub 10,000 teu ships

    “The killer for me in your article was that it was all going to be publicly funded.”

    All major container ports in Le Havre-Hamburg range are publicly funded/owned, using the landlord model whereby private operators install the cranage, take long term lease and operate the facility. This is what was envisaged for SFCT.

  371. sam

    In Scotland’s National Portrait Gallery is a room of paintings dedicated to illustrating parts of our history.

    There is little art that deals with slavery or the Clearances. The language used to refer to the Clearances is, tellingly, “improvements”.

  372. Ian Brotherhood

    @A Scot Abroad (9.11) –

    Thanks for the response – I believe it is sincere and honest.

    But you know as well as I do that there are many English-born residents with ‘second homes’ here who had no qualms about voting ‘No’ in 2014, openly bragged about getting family members to do likewise, and would do so again if the opportunity arises.

    I have no idea what kind of numbers are involved but it stains the democratic process as-is and leaves any result forever open to question. Would you accept that the franchise requires clarity and appropriate enforcement so that the result can be accepted as fair by everyone?

  373. A Scot Abroad

    Alf Baird,

    your argument still isn’t attracting investment. Indeed, you make your case worse by stating that Orkney is in the middle of a whole load of other places all doing the same. So why would anybody invest? There’s no market in trans-shipping stuff over relatively local distances such as Norway-Orkney-Iceland.

    Goods from Asia will still find it cheaper to go through Suez to Greek and Italian ports, goods from the USA and Canada will still go to Channel ports or to Liverpool, and the polar passages aren’t developed. It’s all a bit of moonshine to think that Orkney is somehow going to become a premier international logistics centre. Particularly as hardly anyone lives there to work in the port, and there’s no certainty about trading agreements, because there aren’t any apart from with the U.K., and there are already better options that won’t cost an arm and a leg to develop from scratch. And the Scottish government hasn’t really got a good record of developing infrastructure. Or ferries, or hospitals, or trams, or even a semi-functioning society that is well-educated, drug free, and with a plan for the globalised world of the 21st century.

  374. Achnababan

    Clearances…improvements? Sam you raise this issue…at secondary school 45 years ago I was taught no scottish history at all…the Clearances were never mentioned. But the improvements were described in glowing terms and Neepie Toonsend was a veritable superhero. I learned about the Clearances by reading John Prebble’s book.

  375. James

    Re ASA; – don’t feed the Proud North Briton troll!

    Scotland cannae dae it! [stamps foot]

    It’s the wrong kind of oil/port/wind etc etc etc…

    Scroll on by.

  376. A Scot Abroad

    Ian Brotherhood,

    I’ll accept your premise that there could well have been a number of “mischievous” votes, as you say. It is probably easy enough to do with a bit of planning and registering that may turn out to be false. But I’ve seen no evidence to say that was actually the case, or at least, sufficient to sway the 2014 result one way or the other. It wasn’t something that I did, although I suppose that I could have done.

  377. Xaracen

    Ian Brotherhood said;

    “Whether we are colonised or not, colonisers or not, some of us are more concerned about the pressing need to clarify what is likely to happen if the franchise remains as it is.”

    My take on that matter is that since the native Scots are the ones who literally own Scotland’s sovereignty, then in any election, referendum, or plebiscite, whatever decision they collectively come up with may engage that sovereignty, meaning that no group of non-sovereign voters could deny them, even if that group had an absolute majority, because sovereignty is entitled to command recognition.

    I don’t see that being a major consideration for ordinary elections, but for a serious constitutional matter like Scotland’s independence our sovereignty really cannot be denied, so there would be little point in anyone else being in the franchise anyway.

    So, who among us in Scotland really does own that sovereignty?

  378. A Scot Abroad

    James, @ 10:44,

    if you bothered to read my comments properly, you’d find that I have never stated that “it’s the wrong kind of oil/port/wind”. You’ll find instead, if you read the comment, that it’s a matter of geography and a cost/profit analysis. Scotland is a long way from the serious markets in mainland Europe for energy and trade, and it’s pretty damned expensive to get the energy and trade to there, which rather negates any cost advantages.

    Energy and delivered containers are the same the world over. So why would anyone pay extra to get the same energy or delivered container more expensively from Scotland, when it’s available more locally at a cheaper price?

  379. Xaracen

    James Che said;

    “So if you do not mind it would be of great assistance to provide date from the Westminster parliament of England, the Statement being the same as Scotlands.
    That ” The parliament of England was extinguished ( give Date ) by the ” terms agreed” with Scotland”

    Xaracen replied;
    The Act that did what you ask was the English Act of Union with Scotland (1706 (English calendar, 1707 in Scotland and most of Europe)).

    I didn’t say the old English parliament was abolished, I said it ended its old role and started its new role under a different name and under the terms of the Treaty. It’s in that sense that the old parliament ceased to exist. When it adopted its new name and its new Scots MPs, it retained much of its continuity where that didn’t clash with its new obligations and powers, but there was no need to have a specific Act to do that, as it was already fully authorised by the Treaty and Acts of Union to adopt its new name and authorities on the stated date.

    It just required somebody in ‘admin’ to get the painters in to change the signage, and make sure everyone knew what the new rules were.

    The Scottish parliament on the other hand didn’t actually abolish itself either, but it intended to, because it had no role after the 1707, and was never going to meet again. But because of the angry rioting going on outside, its members fled, so they just sent town criers around declaring that the Scottish Parliament was prorogued with no date for a next session, that is, ‘sine die’. Westminster didn’t do that to Scotland’s parliament, the members of the Scottish parliament did it.

  380. James Jones

    James at 10:44 pm
    “Re ASA; – don’t feed the Proud North Briton troll! Scroll on by.”

    Failing to engage with the debate and ultimately persuade the ‘No’ voters will ensure there’ll never be a convincing, consistent majority in the polls to make IndyRef2 undeniable. “Scroll on by” is counter-productive.

    Others here seem to be raising issues which affect the working class everywhere and aren’t specific to Scotland. Independence won’t fix that. Look how the SNP have taken your vote (and your money) and then screwed you.

  381. Ian Brotherhood

    @Xaracen (11.00) –

    ‘So, who among us in Scotland really does own that sovereignty?’

    Nicely put.

    That’s what we all need and deserve to know, no matter what party or cause, if any, we support. And we should already be clear about it, not have to wait until a few weeks or months before another vote.

    We can’t depend on any politician to press for an answer right now and we can’t expect any journalist to ask about it – we must kick up bloody hell until it’s right there in black and white for everyone to see.

    This vagueness would not be tolerated in any form of sport or serious business so we certainly shouldn’t tolerate it when it comes to the whole democratic principle.

    And yes, that applies to Alba too – you’ve been clear about plenty of other contentious issues, so please, get on with it and let us know where we stand, eh?

  382. Saffron Robe

    Alf Baird says:

    “Colonialism is also a co-operative venture with native elites who quite take to the supposedly ‘superior’ British identity and values in protection of their privileged position.”

    That is very true, Alf, and especially so in Scotland. Supremacy, and the feeling of being superior, is a powerful intoxicant, which turns one against one’s own (indigenous!) self.

  383. James Che


    My comment earlier at 6 : 45 pm on regarding there being no evidence that the English Westminster parliament has no date as being finalised as extinguished.

    Rather to the contrary . There is ample evidence the old English Westminster Parliament had continuity alone as the new GB parliament.

    The very fact that the Westminster parliament site in 2023 does not also make the claim or statement that by Agreeing to the treaty of the union The english parliament was also extinguished.on the same date.

    The other interest statement made on the UK parliament site is the statement that Westminster is one of the oldest parliaments in the world.

    The fact the 1694 Triennial act that started in old Westminster parliament of England had continuity until it only ceased in 2010 without being mentioned as a new Act of the New Great British parliament.
    Old Acts or laws of the English parliament simply transferred into the GB parliament under the same numerical Acts and dates.

    There is enough evidence on the UK parliament site records, that does more than merely suggest the old English parliament did not extinguish it business, its Acts or its membership, or its triennial act until it was time for the new elections in 1708.

  384. A Scot Abroad

    Ian Brotherhood,

    it’s a moot point as to whether the Scots themselves own their own sovereignty, or whether that’s been in effect extinguished by Scotland’s rulers agreeing to join in with a United Kingdom that had already been ruled by Scottish kings for a century. And as it was 317 years ago now, it’s even more of a moot point. A point on the verge of extinction.

    James Che won’t agree, of course, but I don’t find that he’s got a lot of active support or even the law behind him. He can be safely filed in the “irrelevant ancient guff” category.

    Even if the point were to be proven, then how is it established? Are 200 Saltire wielding nutters marching on Holyrood enough for everyone in Scotland to say “fair dos, we’re independent the noo”? Of course not. You’d need a plebiscite, a referendum even, where 50%+1 sways it. And at the moment, the only route to that is via the Scotland Act 1998. And the polls indicate that’s not going to happen at present.

  385. robbo

    Acht we’ll jist huv tae furget it folks. We can’t huv independence becos we’ur in tha rang place!

    Scotland the only country in the world in the rang place. feck me.

    Oh well that’s that then.

  386. sarah

    Well said, robbo! I think your comment shows what nonsense many of the negative btl comments are.

  387. James Che


    It is evidently clear that the only parliament that was not extinguished by the agreement terms of the treaty of union that was later ratified. Was Westminster parliament.

    There can be no representatives legally from the Scottish parliament that was extinguished by the agreed terms,
    As soon as it was ratified by both parties, you can not proceed to select members of the Scottish parliament to sit in Westminster,
    The people that went forward from Scotland after the extinguishing took place to sit in Westminster had already been extinguished as a Scottish parliament in England and dissolved by the terms,
    as such those that entered Westminster did not or could not represent Scotland they were extinguished before they arrived.

    If the promise was, that they would represent Scotland that was immediately made void.
    The very promise of uniting of parliamentary unions was made void by extinguishing one of the parliaments to the treaty.

    The english parliament did not extinguish itself by the terms of agreement it later ratified. And does not claim to have done so, , but continued it third session of the English parliament up to the Date 1708.

  388. Stephen O'Brien

    1998, is as far back in history, we need concern ourselves with, regards the goal of Scottish independence.

    Rescinding the Scotland Act, by providing the people of Scotland that choice, via Holyrood election, the very definition of self-determination.

    All that’s required, a set of politicians, willing to forgo the trappings of Devolution! SNP has sold it’s soul.

    Regurgitated history and legal technicalities, all pointless, when Holyrood lacks a leader, willing to provide the basics of democracy.

  389. Saffron Robe

    As regards slavery and colonialism, it is the government/state which commits/enables those crimes that is ultimately responsible for them, and from whom reparations are due. In terms of English/British colonialism and English/British involvement in the slave trade then Westminster is solely to blame. In the same way that responsibility for the UK’s debt lies entirely at Westminster’s door.

  390. Breeks

    Alf Baird says:
    31 May, 2023 at 7:51 pm
    A Scot Abroad @ 5:16 pm

    “difficult to see an economic case for a massive container and freight facility at Scapa Flow, when Europe already has several vast freight ports on the North Sea coast, such as Rotterdam, Bremen, and Antwerp, all connected to the European road and rail network.”

    The economics of bespoke container ‘transhipment’ seaports primarily depends on the feeder/transhipment markets to be served, and rather less so on hinterland markets requiring landside access. In Northern Europe the transhipment/feeder markets (Baltic, Scandinavia, UK/Ireland, Nordic Atlantic, Iberia) are not located in the Le Havre-Hamburg port range.

    No surprises that it’s “difficult” for a Unionist to see, but I trust Alf Baird’s interpretation of the potential. There is actually something incongruous about the lack of maritime infrastructure apparent in Scotland, and traditional links with Scandinavian and Baltic nations which we don’t see readily apparent in Scotland, beyond perhaps the recognition of strategic location for Scapa Flow being a naval base for the UK Home Fleet.

    I hesitate to call it an indoctrination, but we are “groomed” to see the UK mainland as London centric, and look upon the Scottish Isles as remote, but go and locate Scapa Flow on Google Earth, zoom out a fair distance, and ponder the strategic location of Scapa Flow as deep water natural harbour facilitating the speedy offloading of huge super bulk carriers to get them sent on their way quickly, with their freight containers distributed to smaller ships zipping in and out of Europes congested ports with much greater efficiency.

    Scapa Flow is dead centre.

    The potential is whatever we make it, but we know London will make nothing of it. It’s not just building a port, it’s important to build the right port, one that’s a “keeper” for Scotland.

    I believe the optimum vitality for such a facility would be adopting a wholly dispassionate and neutral disposition towards international shipping, I stress again the world neutral.

    There should be no barriers to American container ships offloading beside Chinese, Ruskian, or South American vessels. Scotland must aim to service global shipping needs, even on some occasions if that means holding our noses to do it.

    I am perfectly serious however that Scotland should start as it means to go on, and market Scapa Flow in an Independent Scotland as something of a parachute for the English Brexit experiment, and rehabilitate trading links with Europe through a Scottish buffer status not unlike the Northern Irish Protocol.

    I stress, it is much, much more than a crutch for a crippled English economy, but it would be Scotland’s interests for London to see opportunities and compensations stemming from the demise of the UK. I mean, they’re never going to like it, but if there are compensations there is leverage to alter opinions.

    This “model” for an Independent Scotland needs to embrace neutrality, which creates issues for NATO and Faslane in particular. The irony is however, that a Scotland taking over effective stewardship of the Scottish waters on the North Sea and North Atlantic, you would want a Scottish Navy which may not be nuclear, but still packs credible potency to control maritime traffic if circumstances dictate.

    I do not envisage a neutral Scotland being a weak Scotland. Quite the reverse.

    In the West, the established Military doctrine is expeditionary force, in other words capacity to extend influence far away from home, and base your strengths around aircraft and aircraft carriers fighting a long way from home.

    In the East, the doctrines lean towards air too, but massive armour and land based “boots on the ground”, designed to occupy land by force and be very difficult to remove.

    I’m not going into the East v West doctrines since WW2, but the point I’m making is that an Indy Scotland would need it’s own bespoke doctrines for military defence. We don’t need to exert prowess in the South Atlantic or Taiwan straights, but we would need capacity to exert force and policing in our home waters.

    This is Scotland’s logical destiny, and it is very different to a Scotland impoverished and disadvantaged by the parasitic Treaty of Union.

    Build our Scotland strong, with international respect and integrity, and give our young families a stake in their nation so that there’s a future for their kids to remain here, in decent built-to-last properties they can afford (“if” they want to buy). “thriving” in Scotland will be easier than it has been for decades if not centuries. Our birth rate will recover just fine.

    We will have a shipping and ship building industry, we will have a revitalised construction sector that is not dominated by neoliberal housing conglomerates, and infrastructure projects which don’t stop in the English Midlands, but extend the length and breadth of Scotland, designed to bring Scotland into the modern world.

    Our wildlife and nature will experience a similar renaissance, with restoration of the Great Caledonian Pine Forest adopted as a National project, and integrated with tourist and recreation infrastructure so that we can enjoy our country as nature intended it to be, but without compromising the natural equilibrium, and hopefully witness a “tropic cascade” in Scotland to dwarf the Yellowstone Park wolves.

    The UK economic model is too close to theft to ever work in Scotland or for Scotland.

    Salvo resonates with me, not merely because it gives Scotland the trump card in Constitutional Poker, but because Scotland’s popular sovereignty, the Common Good, and a strong self confident Scotland will fit this nation like an great overcoat we haven’t felt across our shoulders in a very long time.

  391. A Scot Abroad


    that’s the most cock-eyed analysis I’ve yet seen. Look at the pattern of global freight movements. A huge proportion of it doesn’t go anywhere near Orkney: it goes via the Mediterranean, or comes across the Atlantic to western Europe where there are more compelling rival alternatives as trans-shipment points than Orkney, as well as infrastructure links to an EU market of 400 million people. Just look at a map. Orkney is about Europe’s worst place to put a harbour if your idea is trans-shipment of goods to serve a European market, particularly as the largest tonnage of those goods have come through Suez, all the way through the Med past any number of ports. It’s about 14 days sailing from Suez to Orkney. Waste of time and money making that journey when you can offload your cargo in Greece or Italy.

    The Orkney idea is insane. The only people advocating for it are Quangos and public sector bodies engaged in a circle-jerk of consuming public monies to come up with an idea that the commercial world has absolutely zero interest in. And they have zero interest in it because it’s insanity on stilts.

  392. Ottomanboi

    Dont usually have much time for this global org. however this puts the Orkney isles in future trading context.
    Certain commenters ought to be better informed about the actual shape of the planet.
    It is not atlas flat and Suez is in an «unstable» region.

  393. wullie

    Ian Brotherhood says:
    31 May, 2023 at 11:25 pm
    @Xaracen (11.00) –

    ‘So, who among us in Scotland really does own that sovereignty?’

    And yes, that applies to Alba too – you’ve been clear about plenty of other contentious issues, so please, get on with it and let us know where we stand, eh?

    The answer you seek from Alba has been clearly stated by Alex Salmond. He aye He will have none of this natavist stuff. In other words you indigenous Scots can get stuffed, wee Ek is the come aw ye standard bearer.

    If you were born in Scotland of Scottish born parents and you do live in Scotland then you are a sovereign Scot. otherwise you can go and bile yer heid.

    Or. As the old Scottish parliament stated. Born in Scotland of Scottish born grandparents.

    We have been defrauded enough by every political party that has ever held power in Scotland.

  394. Ottomanboi

    Those opposed to trans Arctic trade claim fog would hamper traffic; a Chinese source quoted in non peer reviewed «Science Daily».
    China has no Arctic connexions in its traditional Belt & Road strategy.
    The opening up of the Arctic is also a security matter for all in and bordering the region.

  395. Xaracen

    James Che said;

    “There can be no representatives legally from the Scottish parliament that was extinguished by the agreed terms … you can not proceed to select members of the Scottish parliament to sit in Westminster”

    Actually, we did exactly that; they were selected before the Scottish parliament expired, but they weren’t selected to represent the Scottish parliament in Westminster, they were selected to represent Scotland in Westminster, in exactly the same way they used to represent Scotland in the Scottish parliament.

    When the Scottish Parliament expired, that didn’t invalidate the purpose or the need for Scottish representation, it just relocated where they worked. If you don’t accept that, then what on earth do you think Scotland’s MPs in Westminster are there to do?

    James, the institution of the ‘Parliament of England’ does not exist anymore, it was replaced by the institution of the ‘Parliament of Great Britain’. The new institution took over the processes and the premises of the old parliament, resulting in a great deal of overlap, but constitutionally it is a different beast.

    The new parliament had to go somewhere, and it had to manage mostly the same things, in mostly the same way, with mostly the same people, in mostly the same territory, so to a large extent the argument is moot. The real argument is that the new parliament refused to respect the continued sovereignty and constitution of the Scottish part of its governmental domain, despite the Treaty obliging that respect. That is something our ‘representatives’ should demand be fixed or else, but they’ve never been bothered enough to make a serious attempt to hold the English establishment to account for its abuses.

    Neither they nor you should be blithely accepting whatever Westminster’s English establishment says, and that includes their websites.

  396. sam

    Piece in The Herod about Orkney’s prospects.

    “Importantly, Orkney is also northern Europe’s preferred location for the ship-to-ship transfer of crude oil, gas and other products, plus the long-term storage and lay-up of tankers and accommodation rigs and the masterplan is focused on placing the islands at the forefront of a cleaner and greener future for Scotland.”

  397. Ian Smith

    It would be a hell of an embarrassment if we found out there was a clause that put a 300 year warranty on the Treaty of Union specifying a clear return to independence if anyone found flaws in the adaptation process. Then we found we had just missed the mark.

  398. fruitella the hun

    Wilson: “If you were born in Scotland of Scottish born parents and you do live in Scotland then you are a sovereign Scot. otherwise you can go and bile yer heid.

    “Or. As the old Scottish parliament stated. Born in Scotland of Scottish born grandparents.”

    So, the aristocracy. They’ve been careful about that and their land doesn’t move, unlike the serfs they shunted off it.

    I’ve only one Scottish born grandparent but even though I was born, schooled, worked and get my pension here I’m not a sovereign Scot. Which I think means I don’t get a say in any ancient route to land reform – which is the main point of independence for me. Great.

    Maybe you were being sarcastic?

  399. Southernbystander

    Wullie 8:23am

    ‘If you were born in Scotland of Scottish born parents and you do live in Scotland then you are a sovereign Scot’.

    This is a clear statement with decent logic and seems reasonable.

    But by now it must include people of very different ethnicity in the not very distant past e.g. black and brown people from Africa, Asia, Middle East etc (and also . . . England). It would therefore mean embracing the idea of genuinely Scottish ‘person of colour’ and quite recent fully English heritage.

    It also begs the question of someone who only has one parent who qualifies and therefore does not qualify as a sovereign Scot even though both grandparents’ sides of the family may go back generations but one grandparent married ‘out’.

    This would not matter that much if it weren’t for the ‘sovereign’ part which I assume means access to certain important rights, though it isn’t clear what those rights are and then how you would remove them from ‘Scots’ who have the ‘wrong’ Mum or Dad.

  400. fruitella the hun

    Oops, my last comment was intended for Willie. I do hope the champions of ancient rights come on here soon and clear up the confusion.

  401. Ottomanboi

    Setting qualifications for the right to vote is a minefield.
    Why not take an examination in politics, history, language and culture of the country concerned?
    I suspect the failure rate might be rather elevated.
    Being born in a location means nothing in the wider context of «local knowledge» or serious interest in that location.

  402. James

    “…by now it must include people of very different ethnicity in the not very distant past e.g. black and brown people from Africa, Asia, Middle East etc (and also . . . England). It would therefore mean embracing the idea of genuinely Scottish ‘person of colour’ and quite recent fully English heritage.”

    So what? If you were born here and your parents were born here what’s the problem?

    5 years residency for everyone else, and that’s being generous.

    I know someone who moved to France 20 odd years ago from the UK and has French citizenship. He can vote in local elections but not national elections or referendums.

    Why the uproar about discussing the Scottish franchise (mostly from the ‘usual suspects’)?

  403. Johnlm

    I suppose any political system is workable if the people given the power are of a good heart.
    Unfortunately, the worst elements always rise to the top, bringing grift and corruption.
    We really should be working on how to shrink Government back to a minimum where there is no percentage in getting elected.
    Maybe then, pols will become servants of the people again.

  404. James Che


    First of all the Scottish parliament did not expire in England like an out of date old loaf.

    It had a specific cut of date in England because it was extinguished by the terms agreed as soon as those terms were Ratified by both.

    Unlike the end of Scotlands parliament in England you have not provided the exact date the English parliament claimed it was extinguished.

    Nor is there any record of the Monarch ending the English parliament by proclamation, instead we find the records of the monarch transferring the old English parliament members directly to the newly named parliament of Britain, without a election process taking place at all until 1708.

    There is some vague presumption that the old English parliament ended but no record or confirmation to be found.
    In fact the evidence of continuity of old English parliament into their new named parliament is the Stronger out of our two debates.

    When it comes to representation of Scotland sitting in Westminster parliament,
    As soon as the terms and agreement was ratified the treaty ended,
    This is due to the prior agreement that the Scottish parliament would be extinguished,

    You are selective in which parts of the treaty of union terms of agreement you wish to remember..
    You cannot have member representation from a extinguished Scottish parliament as soon as it was ratified.
    The etymology is important,

    The representation is a flawed arguement

    Extinguishing the Scottish parliament first by ratification and then choosing by election someone from that extinguished parliament afterwards?

    The Scottish parliament elections should have taken place first, then the extinguishing of the Scottish parliament out of the treaty, to create the British parliament in more than a simple name change.

    I could change the name of my house, however it is still the same house.

  405. Scotsrenewables

    In the absence of any possibility of a vote these discussions re. The franchise, native born Scots, residency requirements etc are about as relevant as how many angels can dance on the tip of a claymore.

  406. Stoker

    Pat Blake says on 31 May 2023 at 9:43 am: “In 2014 Scotland’s people voted by a majority to be in the Union. Doesn’t a modern democratic event outweigh any 300 year act,”

    Pat, i’m not interested in your spat with ‘James Che’ but i do have a problem with your quoted statement above. I note how convenient it is for you and others to regurgitate that misleading shite at every opportunity.

    Firstly, you state “Scotland’s people voted”. Would that include all of those who were given a vote despite them not having any future plans of a life in Scotland? People who, 9-years later, don’t live in Scotland and have no intentions of ever living here?

    Secondly, you’re quick to trot out the pish “democratic event” with absolutely no reference to London breaking the devolution agreement regarding powers retained (for Scotland) in the event of the UK leaving the EU. By omitting this fact are you saying that it’s OK for you and others to use “democracy” when it suits Yous?

    And thirdly, your “democratic event” states absolutely nothing of the lies perpetuated throughout the 2014IndyRef campaign by Unionist politicians and their media outlets alike. Utter shite such as voting ‘No’ being the only guarantee for Scotland to remain in the EU. And there are many more similar mega-lies, lies for which certain scummy Unionist politicians were Knighted for. Knighted and promoted to one of the world’s biggest UNELECTED political houses. Is it that “democratic event” which you refer to?

    There’s a few more points i could make regarding your claim of “democratic event” but i’ve stated enough to make my case. So, as you can see, it’s not just as simple as, “You’ve had your vote, Jock, now shut-the-fuck-up”. Democratic event! LMAO!

  407. A Scot Abroad


    if you think that questioning enfranchised voters over their future life plans, such as where they are going to be living in 9 years time, before allowing them a vote is the way ahead, you’ll be in a very tiny minority.

    Why not allow all Scots resident in the U.K. a vote? Because, who knows, they may in 9 years want to return to Scotland. There’s 750,000 of us, according to the 2011 census. Probably rather more now, because of the disaster wreaked upon Scottish public life and finances by the indy-minded Scottish Government.

  408. James Che


    My American neighbours had three vote in their household in 2014,
    They returned to America two years later after their son finished his Scottish education.

    Another one of those Scottish vote that was not Scots voting.

    Every year until the day they returned to America, the used to have a big party out doors with marquee’s for America’s Independence date

    But openly admitted they had all voted “No” in 2014,
    The father had some connection to the American military based in Scotland.

  409. Southernbystander

    James (11.28am), to be clear I have no problem at all with a black Scots person, or black English person for that matter. Quite the opposite, I embrace the idea. I mentioned it because judging by some of the comments, I suspect there are quite a few here who would baulk at that (might be wrong). I have asked before of commenters, can a ‘true’ Scot be black (black being symbolic of clear non-western ethnic origins)? But got no response. When it comes to question of nationality, nationhood, belonging, community cohesion and sovereignty, it is a crucial question.

    I wasn’t commenting directly on franchise issues which clearly must be based around some kind of residency status (unless ethno-nationalism is taken to is final logical conclusion). I was commenting on the idea of a ‘sovereign Scot’ which I assumed went beyond the matter of who can vote, into something deeper. Again, maybe I am wrong there; the conversations here can be quite confusing due to the very basic layout.

  410. Ian Brotherhood

    @ASA (11.49pm) –

    It seemed you were up for a civilised discussion but no, you had to revert to the usual lazy cliched insults.

    So I’ll revert to ignoring you.



  411. robbo

    Right. What is that guy Brian Taylors hair all about?
    Is it a wig or is he using harmony hairspray, that is the question.

  412. crazycat

    @ James Che at 12.46

    American citizens dd NOT have a vote in 2014. So unless your neighbours were also UK, EU, or Commonwealth citizens, they misled you.

  413. Anton Decadent

    A couple of years ago David Baddiel wrote a book claiming that in the West/UK anti semitism was the last acceptable prejudice. The Guardian ran publicity for it giving him pages with which to promote it. In these he claimed that any race should be used to portray white historical figures onscreen, the less white the better. He also said that only jews should be allowed to portray jewish historical figures onscreen. Anyone who cannot see the anti white prejudice which is running rampant in our countries is not paying attention. Neil Mackay is doing the same thing in todays Herald.

    Cultural genocide is still classed as a crime against humanity by the UN.

  414. sam

    Anent slavery.

    It seems possible,even likely, that the involvement of the Wedderburns in slavery was to recover lost/confiscated wealth and property following the death of the father at Culloden.

    Many Scots involved were already doing well before becoming slavers.They were members of parliament. Ewing (Glasgow), Oswald (Ayrshire),Douglas (Dumfries), Dundas(Edinburgh) and others.

    The Bishop of Aberdeen, Skinner, (well named) was a slaver as were the Reverends Whyte and Forsyth.

    Campbells, Douglases, Dennistouns, Stirlings,Hamiltons, Wedderburns, Grants, Buchanans, Bogles and Robertsons were slavers.

    There are many streets and places named after these people.

    They were greedy(one does not need to say it, but John Gladstone was not satisfied with the compensation received when slavery ended – £11 million today.

  415. Northcode

    Here’s a short one.

    Have you ever heard of Parataxis?

    Are you sure? Not a hint? Not even a clue? You might not think you have. But you have. I can assure you.

    Parataxisis good, plain English. It’s the way English is meant to be spoken. It’s paratactic. It’s linear. It’s a sentence. Then it’s another. Then it’s another one after that.

    English is basically an uninflected language. Everything depends on the word order. It’s all subject verb object. The man kicked the dog. Other languages like Latin or German are different, but that’s for another day.

    Parataxis is direct.

    You don’t want to buy my car?
    It’s a good car.
    You don’t know cars.
    I’m going to have a drink.
    Then I’m going to punch you in the face.
    I’m a paratactic car salesman.
    My cars are the best in the country.

  416. Johnlm

    Israelis love mixing up nationality, ethnicity and religion.
    They just move the goalposts when they want to accuse a critic of antisemitism.

  417. Xaracen

    Northcode said;

    “Have you ever heard of Parataxis?”

    I’m enjoying your excursions into Grammar land; more please!

  418. James Che


    They voted alright,
    We chatted with them while waiting in the que at the small voting station in the village.

    I honestly could not tell you the rest of there personal back ground.

    Except they had thick American accents, they claim they were Americans and they sold up and returned to America two years later.

  419. Pat Blake

    Stoker, what you describe is democracy. Who gets most of what they vote for? In what way was the the EU in 2016 what Brits voted for in the 70s? When did people vote to be in the EU at all? They joined a common market not a budding empire. If people have accepted something long enough, it becomes reality. Had Brexit lost in 2016, would a claim that we were never in the EU at all have had any credence? Would the lies the pro EU campaign told have invalidated the result?

    I see the same attitude on English web sites – people have very strong ideas that a central body is thwarting everything they want. The WEF, Davos, the US Democrats, Big Pharma, various billionaires, lizard people, etc but the reality is that politicians and civil servants are quite similar once they’re in power. They’re also hamstrung by laws and lawyers. When your chosen politicians fail to deliver, you decide that it’s a conspiracy rather than stuff being a lot harder to achieve than to promise. That’s where stuff like GRRB came from. It’s political busy work. They decide that those things are easier to achieve than the stuff people really want, like prosperity, homes, good jobs, low crime, etc.

    Another thing that is very similar is the confidence of success without anything resembling logical plans. You don’t even agree on what things you want to see. BRICS? What would you be trading? Beef to Brazil? Gas to Russia? How would that tie in with joining the EU? Relying on trading partners giving you a good deal because they hate the English is a non starter. Countries don’t make big decisions based on feelings.

    Then there’s the aggression to anything that doesn’t suit you. Fair enough, this is your safe space but at some point don’t you have to test your ideas with other people? Do I care that you’re fixing on the idea that there hasn’t been a Union since the 1700s? If I was trying to protect the Union, I’d be delighted by it, because it won’t go anywhere.

    Seriously if you come up with some good ideas, I’ll be genuinely impressed and positive, because I’d want to see those things for us all. If you could work out how to blunt politicians’ passion for Net Zero and ceasing gas and oil production, I’d be very happy.

  420. James Che


    I am the last person in these Isles that could be called racist,
    My four immediate grandparents are, Scots, Irish, Welsh and English,

    If that mixture does anything, it allows you to hear the history of what families have went through from all four points of view under the British Empire.

    I was in Wales, lived there for four years before returning to Scotland, while the Welsh set fire to their houses,
    The people of Wales were suffering from housing shortages for the same reasons the Scots and Irish do,
    A mass influx from across the border buying them out of house and home,
    I knew of a family with four young children living in a tent in the forestry, two of the three children were still in Nappies,
    Their rented home had been sold from underneath them for a holiday home.

    These are the situations that are not reported by MSM because it a appalling look for GB.

    It is funny that you mention Scots/ black people.

    There was a gentleman that worked the peat moors digging out fuel, that was friend with my (spouse, whom was born and bought up locally)

    When the valley filled up with newbee tenants and land owners from south of the border,

    He was the only Man of four generations left in the vincinity,

    He said to my partner, We are the only two Scotsmen left now,
    His family had been slaves and when they were released they moved to Scotland,
    No offence meant to anyone coloured, but he was dark ebony black.

    I fight for Scottish independence sometimes harder and more determined than some Scots who have a longer history than mine,
    The SNP, Gordon Brown, to name but a few.

    I see and note the injustices done to Scotland, Ireland and Wales by the old empire,
    And still being done to the Scots whom are meant to be in a voluntary Union but England is saying no your our prisioner, like slaves we will release you when we are ready too.

    I stay pretty quiet most of the time that there is even the slightest hint of blood of a Englishman running through my veins.

    It is a shameful burden to bear,
    I am now married to a Scot, my children were born here, and my grandchildren.

  421. Joe

    The same political forces that are trying to make us deny the biological fact of womanhood are the same forces telling us that your ethnic heritage doesn’t matter.

    It seems that despite it being baked into the UN that ethnicity and race are factors worth consideration we are still going to play this game where on the one hand we consider every ethnicity, religion or culture who comes here as some precious thing worth preserving and protecting AS a race and culture, as if they were some precious species of butterfly down to a few hundred specimens, while simultaneously telling us to our faces that we are outdated bigots for merely asking that our people be given some of that same consideration.

    This breath-taking hypocrisy would be hard to fathom if there wasn’t a strong parallel between people who take the above position and people who went along with the crime of covid without raising a single concern and still fail to raise any concern despite the massive amount of data and enquiry results that show that governments, media and vaccine companies knew they were lying to the public.

    At best these people are unable to think clearly and unwittingly serve as added weight to the agendas that plague us, or they are active subversives working against you and yours.

    I cannot express the frustration and disappointment I feel when I see Scots sitting down and taking this stuff, trying to justify their ‘nativist’ stance as if THEY are the ones with something to explain in a conversation that is already loaded to paint us as despicable race hustlers before it even starts.

    This would be true even if we weren’t watching the demographics of our country change before our eyes, while the newcomers needs and wants are put on high priority and ours are simply forgotten, or ridiculed as the case may be.

    What is happening to us is evil, it is done with malicious intent and the apologists for it are not, in any real form, friends of the Scots.

    So I am done pretending otherwise and I think you should as well.

    There is nothing wrong with promoting a strong and robust approach to nationalism that is based on ethnic lines so long as the principles we espouse are universal.

    I want Scots to be given priority in Scotland. I want the English to be given the priority in England. I want Tunisians to be given priority in Tunisia. I am a friend to those who want the same.

    I have come across as racist to those who struggle with biological fact, in the same way that I am transphobic for stating biological fact with sex. But let me tell you, the blackest man from the Congo who shares my view on nationalism, who wants to defend the rights of peoples to determine their own future against an invasive and utterly hostile globalist agenda is far more of a brother in arms to me than the reddest haired, kilt wearing, heather louping Scottish progressive fanny who ever voted for the Scottish Greens, or Sturgeon.

    So there is my solidarity with other races and peoples.

    The 3 African leaders who tried to resist the Covid agenda, and mysteriously died, for the sake of their people are far more heroes to me than Alex fucking Salmond or any other mincing Scottish sell out.

    Im a nationalist. I support and promote a form of universal nationalism where peoples are allowed to exist and guide their futures as they will, free of international banks and the murderous bastards who run them.

    The only form of organisation that ordinary people can use to resist the power of international capitalism/marxism is the nation state with ethnicity as a key component and natural law as the guide.

    This is what I support and any politician or private citizen who espouses this is my comrade and I will not pretend to consider any other position than this.

    Nothing else makes the grade. Nothing.

  422. Johnlm

    Re: grannies’ nationality.

    Devolved rule is pathetic
    National(?) governance is crap.
    Global governance will be a disaster.

    A voter should have to pick which country they belong to.
    It stops rich people with multiple nationalities (votes).

    Obviously, the Scottish political system is not sovereign: It may resist WM control (or pretend to), but it adopts protocols from international organisations such as the UN, WHO, IPCC and various groups set up by various billionaires, without debate.
    – it is globalist.

    Politicians may once have aspired to represent sovereignty are now less than middle management.

  423. James Che

    Pat Blake

    Scots have never had the vote question yet.

    Do you want to join a union with England.

    That one seems to have been missed.

  424. Northcode

    @Xaracen 2:02pm

    Just having a bit of fun with it, Xaracen. Glad you’re enjoying it.

    And if you have another half, I hope you buy them chocolates instead of writing them Blazon style poems . 🙂

  425. Alf Baird

    Joe @ 2:49 pm

    “The only form of organisation that ordinary people can use to resist the power of international capitalism/marxism is the nation state with ethnicity as a key component and natural law as the guide.”

    Excellent analysis. Ethnicity is central to our cause as an “independence movement depends on the solidarity of the oppressed ethnic group” (Hechter), in our case this is the ‘Scots’ and particularly Scots language speakers, tho oor ain langage is makkit gey rusty. The nations and ‘peoples’ of the world are “the bulwarks against Imperialism” (Said). The diversity of the world’s peoples depends on our different ethnic groups.

    The Scots are and remain an oppressed and exploited ethnic minority in the UK, and through colonialism have now been made into a linguistic minority in oor ain laund; this is why we want and need independence, failing which our people, culture and nation will perish.

  426. Pat Blake

    James Che says:
    1 June, 2023 at 3:13 pm
    “Do you want to join a union with England. That one seems to have been missed.”

    That was my point. People were often never asked how they felt about unions of any kind, including the being part of the UK and the EU but for that matter being part of England or Scotland. Scotland was however given a vote on whether they were to remain in the UK and we were all given a vote about remaining in the EU. Democracy doesn’t however mean that you will get what you wanted. Think how you would feel if the regions of Scotland were give the chance to choose to leave or stay in the UK, regardless of what other regions chose. If we start to redefine what a 300 year relationship looks like, then why not the whole thing?

  427. Joe

    @Alf Baird

    I recently was reading an old book from the 1820’s near to where I am from. The dialect of the speakers in the book were very, very similar to how I speak with just a few words different here and there.

    It made me think about a primary school teacher I had who I was always arguing with because she continually tried to tell me that I speak in slang, that it’s not a real language or even that it’s a dying language (obviously without the awareness to realise that her comments were contradictory).

    I wish my father, who hated her, had been as armed with argumentation back then as I am now.

    This figurative arming of the Scots with the necessary framework of how to think themselves into victory in such situations is one of the main reasons I am appreciative of your work. It’s another reason why I try to make some kind of contribution also.

  428. James Che

    Pat Blake,

    Ahmm, you cannot be asked if you want to remain in the union by a vote,

    When you have not had the vote to jion in a union yet,

    Historical Etymology counts.

  429. Ian Brotherhood

    @Joe –

    Powerful stuff again.

    The tide will have to turn sometime when it comes to the Zionist lobbies who are making life hell for so many, not just in Palestine.

    There was a great discussion on Twitter yesterday with Prof David Miller as main guest. Do you know his work? He was at Stirling Uni for a long time, went south and was bagged for alleged ‘antisemitism’. Long time since I’ve checked to see what he’s up to but he sounded well and the discussion was very open with other contributors listing off the Zionists in top US govt posts, some of whom have been there for decades.

    More and more people are coming out and talking about it. Central to overcoming the fear around the subject is knowing the difference between being anti-semitic and anti-Zionist. The two have been deliberately conflated to subdue any serious discussion and obscure understanding – the latter can easily be besmirched as the former and effectively shut-down, cancelled, fired, blacklisted etc.

    Being anti-Zionist is a legitimate and respectable political position and no-one should have to apologise for pointing to the insanely disproportionate influence those people have. The fact that they claim to belong to this or that ‘religion’ is irrelevant.

  430. fruitella the hun

    That indigenous people have first dibs on the resources of their land is obvious. Maybe it is what the free movement (of capital resources and people) advocates mean by the word. They do have a creed that will dispossess the indigenous people in short order. Claiming other races have lower IQs and that means they are not equals is racist, and not in a good way.

  431. fruitella the hun

    … Maybe it is what the free movement (of capital resources and people) advocates mean by the word Nativist. (been a hard day)

  432. Saffron Robe

    Joe says:

    “There is nothing wrong with promoting a strong and robust approach to nationalism that is based on ethnic lines so long as the principles we espouse are universal.”

    I couldn’t agree more, Joe.

    Ian Brotherhood says:

    “Central to overcoming the fear around the subject is knowing the difference between being anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist. The two have been deliberately conflated to subdue any serious discussion and obscure understanding…Being anti-Zionist is a legitimate and respectable political position…”

    You’ve hit the nail on the head there, Ian! One is a peaceful, ancient religion and the other is an aggressive political philosophy based on supremacy.

  433. Alan McHarg

    Is it not a criminal offence to obstruct the police during an investigation? The legal profession and the police are not above the law, however I believe that you can justify breaking the law when protecting the security of the State. Plants and moles, it’s a jungle out there!

  434. chic.mcgregor


    In Kirrie folk are bi-lingual. At least the older ones are. When speaking to each other they use the Southern Doric Northern Tayside accent, but telephone English to strangers and, sadly to the young folk.

    There is a very interesting sound archive made by a German linguist using British POWs. It is on line at Berlin uni.

    It is interesting to see how conservative accents have been in Scotland with Glasgow an acception, it has changed a lot.

    It is even more interesting to see (hear) how much accents have changeed in the North of England. At that time it was a lot closer to Scots than it is now.

    See below example×000002

  435. Thistle Bristle

    @James Che
    I welcome you expressing your points and consider them as useful contributions.

    I value that these are well-put and that you don’t return detractors’ sneers and jibes like for like.

    Please don’t be deterred by abusive comments, whether here or elsewhere!

    Warm regards.

  436. Joe

    @Ian Brotherhood

    I don’t know of Prof David Miller but when I find the time I will look him up.

    As regards to the rest of your comment if we apply the same critical scrutiny to Judaism as we have been prepared to do with Christianity and especially Islam we can find some surprising things. The reason that the popular image of Judaism has been well polished into being some kind of higher version is probably more to do with the fact that there aren’t many Hollywood producers, media moguls or publishers called Mohammed as compared with the Bergs, Burgs, Baums and Steins.

    This is not the place for it though. If you ever want a discussion on the matter I can make a throw away gab account.

    @Fruitella the hun

    The IQ and race issue is scientific fact. I would point out that the observation of inferiority is yours alone.

    @Chic Macgregor

    Sorry Chic, it says the page was removed.

  437. chic.mcgregor

    Link still works for me Joe. I tried to find the original Berlin archive that used to be readily available but it might take a boit of digging. Surprised the British Library copy link isn’t working.

    Here however is an example poem in dialect from North Yorkshire circa 1780.

    When I was a wee laatle totterin’ bairn,
    An’ had nobbud just gitten short frocks,
    When to gang I at first was beginnin’ to lairn,
    On my brow I gat monny hard knocks.
    For sae waik, an’ sae silly an’ helpless was I
    I was always a tumblin’ doon then,
    While my mother would twattle me gently an’ cry,
    “Honey Jenny, tak care o’ thisen.”

    When I grew bigger, an’ got to be strang,
    At I cannily ran all about
    By misen, whor I liked, then I always mud gang
    Bithout bein’ tell’d about ought;
    When, however, I com to be sixteen year awd,
    An’ rattled an’ ramp’d amang men,
    My mother would call o’ me in an’ would scaud,
    An’ cry—” Huzzy, tak care o’ thisen.”

    I’ve a sweetheart cooms noo upo’ Setterday nights,
    An’ he swears at he’ll mak me his wife;
    My mam grows sae stingy, she scauds an’ she flytes,
    An’ twitters me oot o’ my life.
    Bud she may leuk sour, an’ consait hersen wise,
    An’ preach agean likin’ young men;
    Sen I’s grown a woman her clack I’ll despise,
    An’ I’s—marry!—tak care o’ misen.

  438. Joe

    @Chic Macgregor

    Yes, working now. Don’t know what happened, I tried 3 times. Ah well.

    That is actually very interesting. I’d have thought it either a Scotsman doing a bad impression of a Yorkshireman or vice-versa.

    Not long ago I’d have seen little value in looking at the history of dialects but it seems to be the case that it is an excellent way to gauge how close a people are historically to each other.

  439. fruitella the hun

    Joe: I do say you inferred a link between IQ and value although you seem to be challenging that link. You said:

    “Who knew that countries whose populations with an average IQ ranging from 70 to the high 80’s, and who have to put up billboards telling men that raping girls doesn’t cure Aids, would have such positive promise for us?”

    I’ll not bother pasting other clues you left.

    IQ is a disputed technique for assessing what it claims to measure, espevially across cultures. What it claims to measure is not directly linked to value anyway.

  440. Pat Blake

    James Che, by the same measure we never had a vote to be in the EU either. The Scots and the English never got a vote to be in Scotland and England respectively. Sometimes things became real, just by everyone acting like it was and/or by being told by those in power at the time. 300+ years of nobody successfully raising an objection means that the concept of a union is about as solid as it gets.

  441. Joe

    @fruitella the hun

    Let me be blunt.

    What happens is that progressives/woke types hold up a report and say ‘look, this demographic is under represented in a certain field.’

    Ignoring what IQ measures and ignoring the racial differences in IQ leaves the only explanation for the situation as ‘institutional racism’.

    So the entire race of white, and sometimes East Asian people get called racist for the under achievement of races who are less inclined towards academia or jobs that require high cognitive ability.

    That’s how it works.

    As for the science behind IQ, it is very, very well established.

    The trouble is that too many people in the West are prone to emotional rather than practical thinking so, like you, they pick and choose what is relevant depending on where their biases lie.

    This is one major reason that we are in such a total mess.

    You would rather that people be considered bigoted racists for pointing out the science of something than to grow a spine and face the issue.

    Its disgraceful and it disgusts me.

  442. Southernbystander

    The trouble is Joe, some of things you say *are* bigoted. You chose to directly link the lower IQ idea of certain racial groups to committing rape and how that is therefore what Scotland is importing. Even if one were to accept the racial IQ difference and concerns about responses to AIDS, IQ is simply one measure of human value and to link it, in this case, solely to a specific, localised form of dreadful criminal activity by a racial group, is by definition, racial discrimination in a highly negative sense. It also does exactly what you attack others for; those who ‘pick and choose what is relevant depending on where their biases lie’.

    You are clearly very angry and your language deliberately inflammatory – ‘disgraceful’, ‘disgusts me’ etc and this does not give the impression of the fully rational approach that you claim you are taking, nor the freedom from ’emotional thinking’ you attack ‘too many people in the West’ for.

  443. Anton Decadent


    I went and looked up the lawyer, a QC, no less, who defended the murderer of David Amiss and found that on her companies website her speciality was stated as defending sex offenders who are not from this country and protecting their proceeds of crime from being seized by the State, in other words grooming gangs. I then went and looked up the lawyer who defended the murderer of Pim Fortuyn and found that she had also defended someone who was a member of the same gang as the man who murdered Theo Van Gogh. She is a German Marxist who took Dutch nationality to stand as a Green and a member of eleven government committees in the Netherlands including Immigration and Asylum. Both of these women share the same ethnic/religious/cultural background.

    ps, the person arguing with you above recently posted a link to an article written by someone who is a chief writer for Open Democracy, the mouthpiece of George Soros.

  444. Anton Decadent


    Re Open Democracy, that was FTH. The “you are clearly very angry” is a a tactic which you will have already seen being used.


    Was the grooming gang operating at the Four Corners of Glasgow city centre made up one hundred percent of asylum seekers or people who had been granted asylum? A simple yes or no will suffice.

  445. Southernbystander

    I don’t know AD but I will take your word for it as a ‘yes’. You seem to be linking this to Joe’s comments about the threat of rapists with low IQ’s ‘coming over here’ and his earlier comment about reflecting on this when he observed the increasing number of black and brown faces in his local area. I don’t have anything more to say about that than my above reply to him except to make the obvious point that criminals are sadly, everywhere and in all races.

    I am in favour of vetting and controlling asylum seeking and general immigration and there is clearly a pressing need to get the balance of that right, but I am not going to start endorsing demonising of racial groups because that is what is actually ‘disgusting’. And ironically Joe attacks some for doing that to white Europeans, and I agree.

  446. Joe


    Sorry but no. The point about IQ is that groups with diverging IQ will, in an advanced technological society, cause a divergence in material success.

    This divergence will not be placed at the difference in IQ of the groups involved and will be placed squarely on the white population as racist. It’s been happening for a while.

    Further, our children are being indoctrinated into thinking that they come from an inherently racist people (see above) and that bigotry (social justice) against them can be expected.

    All the while massive amounts of crime against ethnic Europeans are in one way or another pushed under the rug and down played.

    The perfect example of this was that while reports of the 10’s of thousands of young English girls who were trafficked, raped, tortured, kidnapped, infused with drugs and sometimes murdered by largely a particular demographic while authorities stood aside were coming out we had parliamentary discussions on the death of George Floyd and what his death means for racism in Scotland.

    10 years ago that could have been a parody scene in some comedy making fun of progressive do-gooders. Now its real.

    I remember there being a dead silence on this hypocrisy with our progressive bleeding heart countrymen, including here.

    All brought to us by the same powers that are giving us transgenderism or as the term I like to use: the equity doctrine

    As for violence in Africa and the potential for violent criminals to come here from Africa? Well, I’ll leave that alone. We all know that Africa is the most peaceful place on Earth and that African males rank below disabled puppies when it comes to representation in crime statistics anywhere that statistics are kept.

    Angry? Yes. Any man who isn’t fucking raging at what is going on should take a moment to think, between making sandwiches for his trans-wife’s newest boyfriend, just what the future holds if our course is not altered.

    I’ve got news for anybody who doesn’t like what I am saying here: the truth is racist, sexist and transphobic, unless it’s about the normal European peoples and then any blood libel can pass.

    @Anton Decadent

    ‘Both of these women share the same ethnic/religious/cultural background’

    There was a funny meme I saw it had a picture of Darth Vader using the force and it said ‘Now I can simply feel it. I don’t even have to check the early life section’

    Kind of got that before you mentioned it.

  447. Alf Baird

    Southernbystander @ 10:52 am

    “by definition, racial discrimination”

    Whilst the focus UK-wide is towards dealing mainly with colour-racism, in my research into Scotland’s ‘condition’, the two most serious aspects of racism I found that Scots are subject to are:

    1. that colonialism is racism ‘built from the (imposed ideological) gulf between the culture of the colonialist and the colonized’, and;

    2. that the colonized group, due to colonialism and its effects, suffer from Internalized Racism, also known as Appropriated Racial Oppression.

  448. Southernbystander

    Alf, how would you actually describe the ‘(ideological) gulf between the culture of the colonialist and colonized’; what does the gulf actually consist of? I assume the gulf you mean must be between English and Scottish since you characterise the English as indulging in colonialism against the Scots and English residents in Scotland as colonial occupiers. It is easy to talk about such a gulf but what are its details?

    You see from my point of view whilst English and Scottish cultures are subtly distinct (and long may that be the case), I find it hard to understand what this cultural ‘gulf’ consists of, and at the same time am confused by your shift from race to culture as if they are synonymous, or that culture is a result solely of race (and presumably genetics), which is obviously not true: English culture, which I can talk knowledgeably about since I have lived my whole life in England, is clearly a result of a mixing of peoples of quite different origins and that is true from before the recent waves of migration since the 1950s, when arguably what we think of as English culture, was slowly formed and evolved over centuries. I am sure the same is true in Scotland and of course part of that mix is also between Scottish and English.

    Even long before the Union, there seems far more that is pretty similar about people who have all inhabited this same island with very many of the same reference points for hundreds of years. So difference yes, but a racially-based cultural gulf? I don’t think that stacks up.

    And all this has little to do with the desire for the political autonomy of Scotland, which I support. But I might be wrong there and that is what bothers me as we seem to be heading towards an ethnic based desire for independence rather than a political one and given where we are at, that looks like a recipe for major civil strife the likes of which we have seen in places like the Balkans.

  449. Alf Baird

    Southernbystander @ 2:07 pm

    “the ‘(ideological) gulf between the culture of the colonialist and colonized’; what does the gulf actually consist of?”

    The scientific theory based on historic evidence of Imperial rule is extensive and includes analysis of Cultural and Linguistic Imperialism and how these processes work.

    Most independence movements depended on the solidarity of an oppressed ethnic group, the literature tells us that. It also tells us that peoples in self-determination conflict are usually linguistically divided. Linguistic Imperialism in this context implies that ‘a people’ may be deprived of learning their own mother tongue (e.g. oor ain Scots langage) and have another language imposed on them and given authority making their own language an ony fowk wha aye spik it inferior. This also leads to a ‘cultural division of labour’ favouring the dominant language and those who speak it. Here we also connect into the theory of ‘cultural (or colonial) assimilation’.

    Much of the basis of a peoples culture necessarily involves their language, and language and culture help form identity. It is therefore not that difficult to join the dots of the decolonization template (independence being decolonization, according to the UN) but it does help reading up on the basic elements:

  450. Southernbystander

    So the gulf is purely about the difference between Scots and English languages. Yet for the most part, I can understand Scots pretty well as it is close to English. I am not seeing the cultural ‘gulf’, nor am I seeing what constitutes the ‘basis of a people’s culture’ that stems from the language that forms such a gulf with English culture. As was pointed out upthread with a link to a Wakefield accent and dialect: it has a strong Scots ring about it and of course includes similar dialect words.

    I don’t think your theoretical extrapolation of colonial theory to the relationship between Scotland and England stacks up because when you delve into the details i.e. the actual practice that is required for the theory to be meaningful, it is absent. That is not to say there has been no oppression or that the relationship does not have colonial-type aspects, but there is no cultural gulf and the theory that Scotland is a colony of England is just that and you have not proved it; you have theorised it but you have not provided the material evidence for it.

  451. Alf Baird

    Southernbystander @ 7:53 pm

    “So the gulf is purely about the difference between Scots and English languages.”

    That’s not what I said. There are many aspects to the cultural divide between peoples and nations. In Scotland’s case support for a closer relationship with Europe is one, opposition to extreme forms of privatisation and deregulation another. Thoughts on monarchy another, as is national stereotypes in regard to the ‘subordinate’ group. We might go back to Thatcher’s ‘Sermon on the Mound’ and her notion that there is ‘no such thing as society’. The common good versus private profit is another feature, as is England’s historic and ongoing tendency to enter into conflict with other nations. Had Scotland remained independent it is extremely unlikely that Scots would have been involved in most of the wars England has dragged us into, and that includes WWI which was a conflict between the large Imperial powers primarily to divert from social unrest at home.

    In any event the established concept of a ‘cultural gulf’ between ethnic groups in any self-determination/colonial conflict is not mine, among other writers it is Albert Memmi’s, who wrote that:

    “Colonial racism is built from three major ideological components: one, the gulf between the culture of the colonialist and the colonized; two, the exploitation of these differences for the benefit of the colonialist; three, the use of these supposed differences as standards of absolute fact.”

    That seems to me to be a pretty sound description of the relationship between England and Scotland and its basis.

  452. John McGregor

    How can Mrs Fraud/Corruption still not be spoken to by Plod is a mystery 3 people signed off the accounts n 2 have been arrested but Elsie ???

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