Taken for fools
From an interview with Mike Russell in today’s Sunday National:
Just a couple of quick questions.
(1) The people of Scotland voted in 2016 to have a second referendum if Scotland was forced out of the EU against its will. The Parliament then voted twice in favour of that policy, and yet Scotland was indeed forced out of the EU on 31 January this year. So why hasn’t THAT policy been delivered?
Why on Earth should anyone believe you can deliver it this time when you’ve failed to deliver it in the last five years despite having a mandate and a Parliamentary majority for it? What, in meaningful practical terms, are you going to have next May that you haven’t had since May 2016 and achieved nothing with?
(2) How do you expect anyone to have “trust” in those circumstances? How can we accept at face value your “belief” that Boris Johnson will abandon his own electoral mandate to refuse a second indyref, when you can’t or won’t tell us anything you can do to make him, given that he can command 600 votes in the Commons against your 50?
The patience of the wider Yes movement is wearing very thin. The NEC elections this week bought you and your SNP colleagues a short period of grace. We respectfully ask you not to stretch their tolerance any further with cheap intelligence-insulting drivel like that published in the Sunday National today.
You’re not asking for “trust”. Trust is earned and you’ve done absolutely nothing since 2016 to earn it. Not one single step has been taken towards independence in almost five years of opportunity. What you’re asking for is faith, something that can only ever exist in the absence of evidence. At this point, frankly, we’d rather see some evidence.
Same old, Same old……They think we’re thick.
I wonder if Mike Russell will respond?
We know they all read Wings, wishy confirms that every other day
Thanks for this piece and especially for this definition:
You’re not asking for trust. Trust is earned and you’ve done absolutely nothing since 2016 to earn it. What you’re asking for is faith, which is something that can only ever exist in the absence of evidence. At this point, frankly, we’d rather see some evidence.
We’ve only been out the eu just under a year. That year has been dominated by a global pandemic. I am frustrated, but I recognise that ploughing forward in those circumstances may lose us some votes in what would be a very tight vote.
We could not have the vote before we actually left the eu (no mandate yet). What does worry me is the apparent lack of preparation. Although I do recognise that I personally may not be informed of any preparation that has taken place. It is about trust. I trust russel more than sturgeon, but trust in the snp as a whole is a bit thin, and getting thinner. Having to deal with the wokerati lost a lot of that trust because if a party can be so easily diverted, then how can it be relied upon. The snp needs to start gaining my trust again…
EXCELLENT. I agree with every single word.
This utter nonsense about section 30 is nothing but the shoddiest of political chicanery to ensure the Scottish Government can sit on their a*ses, until the end of time.
We want action. Scotland voted explicitly for a referendum in the event of brexit. So, Nicola, where the f*** is OUR referendum???
Tomorrow in the house of commons with the return of the internal market bill, is a golden opportunity for the SNP to finally make a categoric stance against the wholly undemocratic stealing of powers from Scotland, and the forced removal of EU citizenship from every single Scot.
We gave the SNP a clear mandate. Scotland does NOT want any part of brexit. So, do something for f***’s sake. Do something!
Until the Scottish government actually stand up to Boris the English clown, nothing will improve. Words mean nothing to London. It is wasted breath.
To be honest I don’t know who I’m more disappointed with, NS or MR.
I really expected more from Mike Russel, but hay after NS I guess anything is conceivable.
Anyone remember Jim Jones in Guyana, who persuaded almost 1000 followers that God was coming and they had to die to greet him. They ingested poison punch, some at gunpoint.
Remarkably his son who had gone on a trip to town survived.
When asked if he too would have taken the poison he replied
“Maybe yes,maybe not”
That’s what faith does to you.
The only way I’m voting SNP in May is if they announce the date of the next Indyref before polling day.
Anything less will be seen as just another carrot on a stick & I for one am fed up being taken for a mug to keep them in power.
Is there ANYONE in the SNP in a position of influence who is not a chancer, comic singer or sand dancer?
They all seem to be quite happy to bump along in their well- paid jobs while sniggering at our gullibility.
Surely they can’t all be MI5 plants? Can they?
Yet more , wheest for Indy rubbish .
This time from Mike Russell .
No progress or preparation has been made to fulfil the 2016 mandate , we can expect another round of “ Scotland will not allow ….” tomorrow from Ian Blackford but no concrete action .
4 years wasted on the Woke agenda and trying to deny England the Brexit it voted for , not one step taken on the path to Indy .
It’s time for Alex Salmond to return.
If Alex Salmond leads a list party and it gets 30% of the list vote – very achievable
This would give the party 25 MSPs and Alex would be the leader of the largest opposition party.
It’s the least he can do after foisting Nicola on us.
A lesson has been learnt that relying on a single political party to get our independence back is not working. Voting for a list indy party could pack our parliment with indy MSPs, why would any indy party not want this to happen?
I don’t think they are MI5 plants. I think that in the First instance Independence has not been their priority because they are too scared to lose.
That lack of courage is now showing through diversionary routes to other aims set as priorities as we have seen.
They are using all their skills to stall and delay, including challenging Martin Keatings who is trying to make a referendum possible.
It is indeed the SNP who lack trust not ourselves
That’s you right off Mike Russell’s Christmas Card list Rev. If you wer ever on it.
Well said, the SNP has been taking us for fools since 2016.
Perhaps that is the real reason the “leadership” went to such extraordinary lengths to stop Alex Salmond from returning to active politics?
He would have shaken things up and disturbed their tranquil existence!
One sentence from Nicola Sturgeon could unite the whole Indy movement ” Independence first,everything else later”
She refuses to do just that. Five words.
Fuly agree with Louis, tomorrow, when internal market bill returns to HOC, and is passed as it was, ignoring the HOL recommendations (ie, showing intentions to break international laws), at the point of announcing the result, each and every SNP member present, should turn on their heels and leave, Blackford, as leader down there, should be last to vacate, departing with the announcement that Westminster has seen the very last Scottish MP in that place.
I wonder if Mike Russell will promote both votes snp pish – or does he really support Independence & stay silent on the subject.
Yer deid richt Stu, truist went oot thon windae years ago. Faith is often reflected in deeds, and the fact is Michael Russell has been about as useful to independence as Pete Wishart.
All the FM’s cabinet, SNP MSP’s and the 48 SNP MP’s are complicit in the national political elite inertia that has seen Scotland’s sovereignty squandered by those very people elected to protect it and to assert it when necessary, like now.
Indy supporters can have faith only in those who are persecuted for the cause and that is an ever increasing number as our colonial oppressors and their local henchmen and women turn the screw tighter on the coffin lid holding Scottish sovereignty.
The SNp have been taking us for the fools since Alex left. If they were a firework they wouldn’t even be a damp squib !!
Are the Greens really so bereft of talent they have this total muppet standing as a candidate ?
“Trust is key!”
Well I am short on that when it comes to the SNP delivering Indy. I live in a very dark place right the now. The SNP has had mandate after mandate since 2014 and hasn’t used any of them. Trust them not.
Sorry that was the wrong thread 🙂
A Union was agreed on our behalf by the Lords and those who were titled in Scotland in spite of the general unpopularity of such a move. We never, and they never, agreed to subjugation.
I think there’s an article in Scotland on Sunday today that suggests winning more than 50% of the popular vote would be the one thing Westminster couldn’t ignore – i.e. just as Salmond won over 50% in 2011, leading to Westminster’s accommodation, etc.
It’s propaganda, of course, with all the usual backed-by-academia and MSM trimmings. Elections aren’t binary decisions. Our democracy has never had that condition imposed on it.
The suggestion that a Parliamentary election within a proportional system must produce the sort of result you’d expect in a referendum isn’t the norm but it is an idea that has merit as long as we are all made aware beforehand.
But I thought the SNP had dismissed that idea. If we are going down that road, let’s make the election itself a referendum.
We should get used to these “compelling” arguments for giving Nicola one last chance, etc. The MSM is right behind her.
Eh so so sorry Mike , support the Bill ? ? ?
There isn’t any Bill , Mike
A proposal for a Draft bill has been spoken about , note the word ” Proposal ” a proposed bill is just that might be, could be, nothing actually in place Mike is there eh
The months of attempting to shoot down Martin Keatings attempt to get a ruling on the Scottish Parliaments ability to hold a referendum without interference from Westminster hasn’t gone unnoticed the impediment to a second referendum is entirely the SNP Governments fault
So cut the crap you ain’t fooling anyone apart from people in the SNP who have fallen for this never ending pish of Jam Tomorrow , the current management of the SNP have ran out of road most sensible people have sussed out the delaying tactics , YER TIMES UP pal, now either do what you have promised or get out of the Ducking Way .
The snp should walk out of Westminster tomorrow, they should leave.
What’s wrong with us doing it….?
We cannot be accused of UDI. Governments can be accused of that.
We are not government.
We are Scottish people and we are sovereign,
We have the right to choose whom governs us.
Let me know when you all wake up.
Very good points there Rev, its been difficult over the past couple of years to trust in which direction the SNP hierarchy are taking the party, so as you say why should we just have blind faith now that they’ll deliver independence.
I don’t have the answer to that question unfortunately, I can only hope the newly elected members of the NEC push the party in the right direction.
Welcome as the St Andrew’s Day massacre of the SNP’s Woko Haram faction undoubtedly was, I have……concerns.
With people like Mike Russell still at the helm, there is a real danger that not much will happen even when the SNP win a convincing majority in May 2021. Joanna Cherry and others are still advocating SNP 1 & 2, as indeed they are obliged to do.
That means even the newly resurgent progressive/Common Weal/fundamentalist
types are being asked to write a blank cheque in expectation that the “New NEC” can deliver on its promises and see off both the Charlotte Street Gradualists and the Woke Stasi in the party.
I want to see action, not words. Nothing Mike Russell has said is really any different from what that know-nothing Wishart spouts in his twitter feed. As Rev Stu said, we’re still being exhorted to keep the faith with no actual evidence.
Joanna Cherry, Kenny MacAskill et al need to ask Mike Russell and the gradualist bitter einders a simple question:
” Where’s the beef?”.
We want a concrete Plan B in response to a britnat veto, a realistic timescale in which the plan will be delivered, and details of the aggressive and incremental steps Holyrood will take to deliver independence based on the supremacy of the sovereignty of the Scots people – as expressed by their parliament – over Westminster.
I won’t vote SNP 1, never mind 2, without concrete steps being taken.
Graeme says: at 3:18 pm
“Are the Greens really so bereft of talent they have this total muppet standing as a candidate ?”
It’s gotta be kinda difficult to get smart folk into the party when their membership rules only allow folk that are prepared to deny scientific biological reality to join… That’s always gonna restrict and limit the pooled intellect to an extent. 🙂
I probably live a more environmentally sound existence than nearly all Green politicians and voters, but wouldn’t / couldn’t join the Green Party in its current form.
This paragraph stands out for me ,
“ Well of course, that means there must be trust. I have espoused, supported and worked for independence all my adult life. The people I work within government are exactly the same and I don’t believe for a moment that any of them are backsliding on independence,” he said. “
Why then are so many Snp Msps retiring and not standing for
re-election in May if they feel that Independence is so close , Why wouldn’t they want to be part of the government that delivered our Independence .
Surely we would be having new elections to our Parliament within six months to a year anyway as we couldn’t have English registered party Conservatives, Labour and Lib-dems sitting in our Scottish Parliament and that would be the time for the Snp Msps to retire then after they’ve delivered our Independence or is it the case that Snp will just dangle a carrot again and they would be happy to sit on their backsides for another five years after May .
Agree Rev.
Basically the Salmond government built up a reservoir of trust by holding a referendum when they said they would.
The Sturgeon government lived off that reservoir of trust but, for me at least, it’s now run dry.
For me to consider voting for them in May, it would take there being a manifesto pledge
i) an acknowledgment that Plan A will be tried one last time but is unlikely to work;
ii) that some “now is not the time” type equivocation will be taken as a “no” and plan B proceeded with immediately;
iii) a full explanation of what Plan B is and how it will be gone about;
iv) in the case of either Plan A or Plan B, a date for the referendum to be held on;
v) no wormy language such as “we would hope” to do things; nail it down and commit fully.
If they do all these things, then you may ask me to trust you to deliver them. And I might but I might not as well considering the degree to which you seemed to need dragged kicking and screaming to offer them.
One of the things they tried to achieve in 2014 was a heightened political consciousness and this was done. Some may have gone back to sleep but some definitely haven’t and you need to stop getting arsey with them for being smart enough to query holes in your plan and for being clear on how you earn their vote. This is what politically conscious voters means and it’s a good thing so learn to deal with it.
John Rose at 2:25 pm:
We have left the EU, we are in the transition period.
Bad news for Scottish tanning salons as over 50% of Scots can now have an orange hue free of charge from being force fed carrots, rather than paying to be fried under a UV light or smeared in colouring agent.
#NewOrangeOrder
One further thing about Brexit.
The Brexit vote had the opportunity to make Scotland very rich, if it declared independence and took over the UK seat. There are unimaginable riches awaiting an English-speaking country bordering England.
Indy may bring economic difficulties at first. But Scotland would have been an absolutely unique position entering 2021 as an independent country in the EU.
So why did Nicola Sturgeon do everything to work against this? How is she, in any way, shape or form, “stronger for Scotland”?
Trust – actions not words (especially lies).
1. SNP broke their repeated pronouncements and allowed Scotland to be taken out of the EU without fighting it with anything other than hot air.
2. Sturgeon & Co actively blocking the Alex Salmond inquiry despite saying they would provide all information (which became all ‘relevent’ information).
3. Unknown proven whereabouts of ringfenced independence funds despite being assured by Murrell that it did exist.
If the recent changes of the NEC don’t result in clear pro-independence actions and some honesty about serious outstanding issues, then the SNP will be at a deadend in terms of independence. A lot of people primarily want to vote for independence, with the SNP as a means, but it seems that they are too excited at the prospect of winning at the May election to notice or care about the warning signs.
Is the SNP as a political Party, rather than as a presidential/celebrity show really that dumb, or are they just so arrogant that they think that all those that would vote for them are? As the saying goes – Pride comes before a fall.
I think the SNP are heading for a big fall in May if this is the kind of nonsense they are still bleating :
“One more mandate ! One more mandate!”.
You were trusted and I did have faith in the SNP. Then you threw it all away with the GRA bill and Yusuf’s stasi thought crimes.
Drop these two idiotic bills and discuss ad nauseum ways to obtain independence . Then do it. Plan A, Plan B, Plan C, Plan D – it doesn’t matter.
You already have numerous mandates – get it done.
“Time is running out for the union” is becoming the SNP’s equivalent of “the oil is running out”. Bring it up whenever an election is due and hoover up the votes.
“winning more than 50% of the popular vote would be the one thing Westminster couldn’t ignore – i.e. just as Salmond won over 50% in 2011, leading to Westminster’s accommodation, etc.”
He didn’t. He got 45% in constituencies and 44% on the list.
Can I just check something Stu? If you are proved to be wrong, and we get IndyRef2 in a reasonable timescale after the 2021 election, will you graciously admit you were wrong? I ask as one of your longest-serving supporters, who acted as one of the Wngs counting agents in 2014, and also as an SNP member since 1984 who has known Sturgeon, Swinney and Russel since then and has no doubts about their commitment to independence.
Denise says:
6 December, 2020 at 2:47 pm
It’s time for Alex Salmond to return.
If Alex Salmond leads a list party and it gets 30% of the list vote – very achievable
This would give the party 25 MSPs and Alex would be the leader of the largest opposition party.
It’s the least he can do after foisting Nicola on us.
A bit harsh Denise – I think Mr Salmond’s paid his penace for that mistake.
However, your calculations have cheered me up no end and I think we could have a rousing Ne’erday advertising that idea:-)
Even penance
Too true Stu….fed up seeing dead squirrels wrapped up in tartan plaid. The SNP in WM were the only opposition party in the brixshit debates…a lot of people agreed with their stance, but nobody ‘darn sarf’ could vote for them….They should have walked out of WM then and there!
GRC? What a complete waste of time and resources….another dead tartan squirrel! I don’t care how people present…(though we do need a few more adults in the conversation). The Gov should have been calming the argument down…which they didn’t do! Instead they sat back watching everyone fight over it. Even losing women’s votes. and the creation of other Indy parties. Why let such an issue take over political life and watch the country dividing itself over it, unless they were happy it took people’s minds off asking questions over when the Ref would take place and other urgent matters….like the currency issue, and how an Independent Scotland would operate!
Aye trust, like respect has to be earned!
@Sandy Thompson
I’d be interested to hear (a) what a “reasonable timescale” after the May 2021 election is; and (b) how this #indyref2 is brought about?
The individuals may indeed be committed to independence in the abstract, but that tells us precisely nothing about either of those questions, nor does it explain why the gradualists persist with advancing their faith based position and with failing to explain why it will succeed.
@johnny Martin, read my comment. I said we’ve been out the eu almost a year. We couldn’t have a vote before we left, and haven’t been able to since because of the pandemic. So I fail to see what your point is.
@James Che. says:
6 December, 2020 at 3:30 pm
“The snp should walk out of Westminster tomorrow, they should leave.
What’s wrong with us doing it….?”
People would miss the droning nasal tones of certain individuals as they repeat their battle cry for the umpteenth time 🙂
I have already lost all trust that they will deliver anything in the way of independence any time soon – or ever; not this administration. I do believe that they will deliver the GRA reform and ‘hate crime’ bills and put them on the statute book if the vote in 2021 is a big one. Our votes will be used to justify the biggest impending scandal on human rights that Scotland has ever seen – both women’s human rights and the human rights of the general population.
Nonetheless, I will be voting SNP in the constituency vote – and that is entirely down to my own constituency MSP, little to nothing to do with the party. My second vote will go elsewhere. I have never, since I was able to vote, voted anything other than SNP because I have believed, from my earliest teen years, that Scotland should be independent , and I’m something of an old boiler now. Never again will I vote SNP – if I live long enough to vote again, that is, because I have never seen such blatant crushing of a people’s aspirations or the trampling of the rights of a majority of the population – both in terms of women and in terms of the Scots themselves (women far outweigh in percentage terms the trans lobby; and indigenous Scots (in terms of the definition used by the UN Charter) won the majority vote for independence).
I have never been daft enough to believe that independence was going to be a walk in the park either, but that should not be an excuse not to do something. I knew, when our future was handed on a plate to NO voters and Westminster, after the announcement of EVEL, that we were going nowhere fast. The 2014 N0 voters, just like the British/English Nationalists today, were in breach of the UN Charter, in breach of the Treaty of Union and in breach of the sovereignty implicitly and explicitly invested in the Scottish people. That is not to say that they could not use their vote and use it as they wished, but they should have been left in no doubt that they were in breach in those institutions, and that we would be looking for an alternative to a referendum next time. They should have been left in no doubt that it was unfinished business and that they did not rule the political roost in Scotland. Totally scunnered and disillusioned.
Sometimes the least said the better. Short and to the point article. Wonder if Russell has read it? I also note through the btl comments there’s the usual serious lack of sycophants proving you wrong Rev. Oh well, one can always live in hope.
@holymacmoses 🙂
Lorna Campbell – Well said. I heartily agree.
“We believe that the Scottish people are sovereign, and we hereby announce our intention to declare Scotland independent and submit that intention to the will of the people in this election for their approval.
…”
WoS – SNP Manifesto – 14 Oct 2020
WARNING: Trust in or support Mike Russell at your peril. That’s all i can be arsed saying. Russell loves to talk and he loves the sound of his own voice. I’m sick of talkers i want doers.
Dan says,
A bit too subtle for some? Even my wife, who is quite sharp after living with a sarcastic b*st. For 65 years. Hits the spot though.
ooh another chance
woo woo
indy woo woo
there’s no – understanding of the distrust of the wider indy movement (accurate observations of the indy movement)
etc
repeat ad infinitum
A Robert Peston article published a few minutes ago..
http://www.itv.com/news/2020-12-06/the-12-reasonable-worst-case-outcomes-if-brexit-talks-collapse
“Revealed: The ‘reasonable worst case’ if EU talks collapse”
Oh dear!
ps. The devolved government’s should negotiate their own deals with with the EU after 1st January 2021. The Internal Market bill says the devolved governments are free to make their own laws on goods and services.
I don’t think it’s fair to blame Alex for foisting Nicola on us, Nicola is a product of a university education which she’s gone to great lengths to tell us
Unlike Alex she’s never lived in the real world, straight out of university with a law degree and into politics all primed and ready with her worldly wisdom to put the world to right,
Not unlike the woke faction who’ve infested our party and society in general with their “progressive” ideals born in the campus of Stirling university
“Can I just check something Stu? If you are proved to be wrong, and we get IndyRef2 in a reasonable timescale after the 2021 election, will you graciously admit you were wrong?”
Of course I will. What alternative would there be? I’ll never have been happier to be wrong in my life.
@Stoker
Agree 100% with your first sentence.
Yeah John Rose fair enough.
Regardless should have been pushing since 2016 since overturning what England wanted was a ridiculous strategy and they should have campaigned to get Scotland what it wanted instead.
If you disagree, think how you’ll feel if we vote Yes and parties in other countries presume to tell us we’ve made a mistake and campaign for us to reverse it.
Beaker my heart is dying waiting for others to wake up.
Ah, but… LOOK AT THE POLLS, JUST LOOK AT THEM, LOOK I TELL YOU. POLLS MEAN EVERYTHING.
Mike Russell is standing down so he knows he won’t be accountable for what he is saying. Convenient.
Your questions are very valid Stu! It’s very sad to think of the numbers of folks from 2016 have seen the lose of the EU, the staggering ineptitude of our present political warriors, the rise of BoJo n pals and because of COVID missed seeing their dreams fulfilled, and those in the future will never see an independent Scotland.
You do stir up the hornets nest, and you should, it’s time!
Scotland Forever.
Well said Lorna Campbell@4:39pm. I do not have faith in the SNP . I expect them to deliver. If they don’t? I expect extra parliamentary means.
If the SNP elite are so scared of failure, then they should resign. They are collecting their salaries under false pretences.
Since 2014, there has never been any attempt at a campaign to get us higher in the polls. Though they were quick enough to take peoples money.
I’d trust the SNP “leadership” about as far as I can spit.
You only need to listen to their words then look at their deeds in respect of the Salmond enquiry to see the caliber of the individuals we’re dealing with.
These are people who would sell their own granny for glue, and they ask us to trust them?
Whatever ‘meds’ Mike Russell is on, someone should look at the dose!
I’m taking a step back from this folks.
I’m going through the menopause, so mood, memory and equilibrium are not where I would like them to be.
I’ll keep a weather eye out, cheque book ready to help if I can, but I’m needing a break from all this.
The recent coup at the NEC does not appear to have changed anything – although I admit it is early doors.
If NS remains in place past 1/1/21 – I’m struggling to see how SNP policy changes.
Some form of legal appeal with regards the Internal Market Bill needs to be lodged with the EU before transition period ends. That buys 4 years of time, and potentially – legally – puts a spanner in the whole Brexit works with regards them using Scottish assets to barter.
May election – has got to be a Plebiscite Election on Indy (in some form or another) or I cannot see a way of Indy being achieved in my lifetime.
With almost a 1/2 million pounds in the ring fenced kitty, and an Indy Ref 2 ‘promised’ (strongly hinted at) for just over a year away – I would strongly urge the SNP to start another crowdfunded – so its well topped up – and I would urge them to start campaigning (with billboards) for it now. Don’t think anyone here will be holding their breath.
From what has been published – there are reasonable cause to suspect the ring fenced funds have been embezzled. This might be the only way of ousting NS – but its a double edged sword – once an investigation/prosecution is ongoing – press will not disclose new info (which is possibly the only thing that will galvanise our sleepy NS fan club), and if those suspected move to take out a confidentiality interdict – no-one from their team is likely to disclose it to the Daily Record – 1 hour before it reaches the judge.
If SNP policy/reasoning is that it will take the full brunt of Brexit and losing Holyrood to wake up the people of Scotland and galvanise them to supporting Indy – then voting for the SNP to mitigate the worst policies of the tories is stupid.
24 more food shopping days till Brexit.
The early comments posted on that ‘The National’ article have been routed. Mine was one of them.
I’ve seen quite a lot of “Deleted” entries under various ‘The National’ articles and assumed they’d been removed after being reported for insults or whatever but that’s not what’s happened on this article. They were removed for saying the same sort of things as this article, here, says. Quite a few of the more recent comments are from returning readers who have noticed the removal of their previous comments for no good reason.
I’d already decided that I was not going to renew my subscription after their outrageous editorial line on the Salmond Trial and aftermath but it still had many months to run and there’s no way to get your money back once you’ve paid it. All you can do is stop them taking more and, even then, you can’t do that through their website.
@ Sandy Thomson 4.28pm what exactly is it that Stu has to apologise for , is it him who has been dangling the carrot for the last 6 years , is it him who IGNORED the 62% vote of Scots to remain in the EU ,is it him who was more interested in trying to force english voters to change their minds ,is it him who repeatedly told Scots we would NOT be DRAGGED out of the EU, is it him who permitted woke lunatics to take over the SNP
Is it him who assisted woke lunatics to take control of the NEC , is it him who FORCED the criminal trial on AS over spurious charges and who was found innocent of those charges , is it him who REMOVED AS from the SNP website history ,is it him who is FORCING the reviled GRA and HCB through and ALIENATING the real women vote
I could go on Sandy but I stupidly didn’t realise that Stuart Campbell was responsible for this ENORMOUS CLUSTERFUCK , I thought it was SOMEONE ELSE ENTIRELY
With the polls showing a solid lead for Independence the will of the people is clear
The SNP have now achieved the final requirement that they themselves claimed as a reason not to push for a referendum
They have been told time and time again that Westminster will not grant them another referendum
They must provide the people with a path to freedom unless they are content to be obstructionists like Westminster
WE HAVE SEEN BETTER TOGETHER IT DISNAE WORK !
My sentiments exactly…action now, not words and no more mandates. WE HAVE a MANDATE. When are these SNP politicians going to replace meaningless blether with action? Where are the risk-takers, the radicals we so desperately need?
UK Gov cabinet backing ‘no trade deal’ scenario, so chaos after Jan 1, 2021 likely.
Food shortages are now being discussed openly in the media alongside all manner of other disruption – softening up the population I wonder? Suggestions that Covid vaccine will be flown in by RAF to avoid ports disruption indicates that the chaos and shortages is more than a remainer Project Fear belief…and what really sickens me that the SNP has wasted so much valuable time.
@ Neil Mackenzie
Aye, deleting comments seems to be the way of it these days for folk that can’t handle their work being critiqued.
Off the back of Russell’s article today I noticed this site’s No1 Fan bumped his article from a couple of weeks back.
https://twitter.com/PeteWishart/status/1335532917284610049
Andy Ellis had his btl comments removed from but did managed to save one.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-faction-factory/#comment-2582874
Wings then responded with this article.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/petes-perfect-plan/
OT but…
Honestly thought the British Establishment would at least have the basic self-preservation instinct to avert No Deal but it is looking unlikely.
That is the end of the Union. There will be no going back in the eyes of most Scots, even many of the more traditional unionists.
It is a shame the shock will be so hard.
Sandy Thomson @ 4.28
Your blind faith in the current SNP hierarchy reminds me of the many Scots who used to line up to vote Labour.
twathater @ 6.10 highlights the need for careful review of key failings and those responsible.
The obvious paradox of many SNP long service ‘bonnie fechters’ retiring on unionist pensions after the election of successive Nationalist majorities tells its own story. If ever there were a definition of a failed Nationalist politician it is surely this.
“ He didn’t. He got 45% in constituencies and 44% on the list.”
My bad. Had it in my head he won over 50% of the constituency votes. Blessings.
Absolutely nothing? Mike Russell was largely responsible for putting the referendum bill through Holyrood last year. It takes care of most of the legwork involved in any referendum that’s called, meaning elements can be pre approved so that it can be done faster. How is that nothing?
The Rev’s points as ever are all very valid.
All I can think of is a fear the polls suggested we would lose
Indy Ref 2 at those times.
The polls are now encouraging, we are being dragged out of Europe
against our will, Boris continues to excel as a buffoon, the Tories are
completely corrupt feeding £10 billion to fellow Tories for being middle men.
When fishing is sold out tomorrow it will only be because we don’t understand
The deal. It only a maybe they could fish here.
The current SNP can only survive if they win next May and go into Indy ref 2 mode the next day.
https://beta.parliament.scot/bills/referendums-scotland-bill
Read it
Spot on Stuart, especially the last paragraph. I think you are speaking for all of us.
As the saying goes: “Belief comes from knowledge and not faith”.
Besides which, how can we trust a party led by a pair of crooks?
Utter dribble from Mike!
I have no faith, I have no trust. They have nothing to offer but more platitudes. It doesn’t matter if the SNP win every seat. They are asking permission from a third party.
We have them our permission , but it seems that’s not good enough.
Powerful piece and to the point.
Michael @ 7.34
I read it and it says:
“This Bill provides a legal framework for the holding of referendums on matters that are within the competence of the Scottish Parliament.”
Well, that excludes constitutional matters then.
How about: “As a matter of law, a referendum is not a required part of the process of becoming independent” (McCorkindale & McHarg 2020)
In that case, why not use the third successive SNP Scotland majority of democratically elected ‘Nationalist’ MP’s to assert Scottish sovereignty and revoke (or give notice to revoke) the Treaty, as Scottish sovereignty was asserted in 1707 to ratify the Treaty? And perhaps use the May election as a plebiscite to confirm Scotland’s withdrawal?
The writing was on the wall with Winnie Ewing’s delusional rhetoric in 1999 about the Scottish Parliament is hereby reconvened.
Holyrood is a Westminster puppet parliament with a puppet government.
The SNP stopped being the party of restoration of Scottish national sovereignty to become the party that is content to administer colonial administration and national subjection to the Parliament of Westminster. England’s Parliament.
Mike Russell typifies this passive colonial mentality. Yet, he was recently elected as President of the SNP. So, I won’t be re-joining the SNP.
I won’t be voting for any candidate or party that wants to be a colonial administrator.
The people of Scotland are sovereign. They could vote to give a mandate for independence via election. That was SNP policy for approximately 79 years and Mike Russell is old enough to remember.
But he now receives over £100,000 a year salary to forget that. He will retire a wealthy man for selling out Scotland as a British colonial administrator.
Apologies for reposting, from end of previous thread.
I’m really grateful (not being sarcastic) to Gordon Dangerfield and the Rev who apply a forensic microscope to the byzantine intrigue(s) in the this hoi polloi sphere.
My own patience just does not not stretch to figuring out the “who knew what & when” based on who said what & when, knowing that all witnesses will lie as necessary to save their own or their handler`s skin.
I am getting to the point of wanting to throw out the bathwater, very much hoping we can actually save the baby.
PS. Good to see Ruglonian elected.
Well, Mr Russell, over a year ago, was tweeting how much he was looking forward to contesting a seat against the Lib Dems next May. So he well knew there was no indyref on the agenda.
Depending when he decides to actually stand down and when he made that decision, there’s every chance he well knew he wouldn’t be contesting a seat in May either (far less an Indyref) So much for faith and trust.
Actions have consequences and that simple tweet meant I had faith and trust that there would be no Indyref next year.
As for a referendum itself: ‘I do not believe that any decision by Boris Johnson will be or could be binding’
I dare say that holds for a referendum also, which will be advisory and non-binding – unless explicitly stated otherwise. It also holds for UK Governments not being bound by their predecessors.
Perhaps someone could point me to the clause in the various 2014 articles, where the result of that referendum was explicitly to be ‘binding’ both of itself and in the event of. a’snap election’ and change of government.
Or perhaps – if that proves too difficult – the clause in the Scotland Act’ whereby a referendumm on the abolition of the ‘Permanent’ Scottish Parliament and Government is explicitly ‘binding’
I’m bored with the ‘referendum’. If the SNP asked for one and the answer was no, then ‘No’ is the answer – move to the next phase. If they haven’t ‘officially asked’ then they are dissembling. Every avenue has not been explored, despite what the SNP say.
If ‘trust’ is the byword, then that must encompass all.
‘No you can’t have a referendum’ can only be responded to with ‘We trust your word on that matter, therefore we won’t waste time, or insult you by asking again’
What is the difference between not trusting that word and not trusting ‘Yes you can have a referendum ? None that I can discern – there is no ‘trust’.
The SNP is awash with ‘Lawyers’ and how many Lawyers does one know of, who would not piss themselves laughing at the insertion of ‘Trust us’ in the clause of any contract. The same who would defend criminal acts as being done in ‘good faith’ before collapsing in paroxysms of laughter outside.
Give it up. The only out for the SNP is to abandon the notion of an S30 transfer of power and tell us what the new strategy is – if they have one (*cough) I have no ‘trust’ in either the current UK government or the SNP to deliver an Independence referendum before the next GE in 2024.
Let us see if they will ever stand on a plebiscitory election in May, or a GE – because however ‘undemocratic’that may be perceived to be; when you have taken independence, by whatever means, you can have as many ‘gold standard’ confirmatory referendums as you like.
What matters most? The voice of the electorate, or the means to give them that voice?
Show us.
@Lorna Campbell 4.39pm
As usual I agree with every word you write.
Alf Baird: the holding of legal referendums for domestic purposes is probably not a bad idea, where those domestic issues are divisive (e.g. the GRA reform and ‘hate crime’ bills). However, even if the Scottish courts decide that Holyrood has the right to legislate, the UK Supreme Court can challenge that, and it has already ruled that constitutional matters are not within the devolved settlement’s remit by effectively rendering the ‘consent’ issue redundant.
An election that stated quite categorically that the election of the highest number of MSPs would constitute a mandate for an immediate move towards independence is feasible, but there is nothing to stop Westminster acting the role of Madrid nd quashing dissent.
In the end, international law – and even that can be tenuous, at times – is the only real way we have of forcing Westminster’s hand on independence in that everything in the domestic arena is susceptible. Preparing a watertight case based on the breaching of the Treaty, Addressing the Floor of the General Assembly of the UN and asking for our case to be remitted to the appropriate tribunal or court of the UN would go a long way to bringing Westminster to the table for negotiations – and it would have the added bonus of being open and above board, with Westminster having far less access, under the gimlet eye of the world, to sleekit obscurity as it seeks to crush our aspirations. Forcing rUK into the open for all the world to see would be half the battle.
From further up the thread Rev responds to this:
“Can I just check something Stu? If you are proved to be wrong, and we get IndyRef2 in a reasonable timescale after the 2021 election, will you graciously admit you were wrong?”
Response: “Of course I will. What alternative would there be? I’ll never have been happier to be wrong in my life.”
__________
Ah, but there’s the rub, who gets to decide what is “reasonable”? As far as i’m concerned it has to be 2021 because throughout 2022 there is going to be a planned BritFest of Brexit celebrations *&* celebrating Lizzies birthday or length of time on the throne.
That just leaves 2023 onwards. Another 2-3 years *at least*? No feckin thanks! Besides, i’ll be gobsmacked if Holyrood hasn’t been emasculated completely by that time.
My thoughts exactly Rev. I joined the ISP in part because it offers an expression of the Yes movement’s frustration with the lack of progress on indy. We NEED ISP people in the parliament to pess the SNP on Indy. Every day if necessary.
So there is no hiding place in our parliament for this mendacious inaction which takes the Yes movement’s votes for granted.
This is just like SLAB telling the poor masses of Glasgow that THIS time it will be different. Patience is wearing thin. Faith is faltering. If all this talk peters out in tame acceptance of Johnson’s inevitable No there WILL be hell to pay. There MUST be hell to pay.
No more wasted mandates.
Muscleguy says on 6 December, 2020 at 8:57 pm:
“If all this talk peters out in tame acceptance of Johnson’s inevitable No there WILL be hell to pay. There MUST be hell to pay.”
Could not agree more.
__________
On a completely different note. Does anyone know the best way to go for voting in The Scottish Borders region? I don’t want to be giving snp both votes because that’s counterproductive, that much i know. But i’ve been told the SB region is one of the few areas where it’s best to go both votes snp.
I don’t fully understand this system and to be perfectly blunt i’ve never even attempted to learn about it so i’d appreciate it if those that do know would advise accordingly. Bearing in mind i’ll be recommending, probably to thousands of other Borderers, to go the same way.
I’m going to give this lot one last chance to produce the goods, due to the glimmer of hope in the recent NEC voting, and failing that i will actively work against Sturgeon & Co. I owe it to Scotland to fight one last battle, i owe Sturgeon & Co fuck all.
And btw, if it means second vote to (holds nose) The Greens in my region then so be it. Indy majority *must* be the only target for us all if we are to get anywhere. We must eject as many Yoons as possible.
Any help & guidance will be greatly appreciated.
@Lorna 8.49pm
Well said. The problem we have now is WRT timing I think? The gradualists have run down the clock. I’m pretty sure time has run out to make the 2021 elections plebiscitary, even if the fundamentalists have made progress recently. So, as many of us warned, the size of the SNP majority is immaterial, because there is no Plan B, and the next elections won’t be until 2026 for Holyrood or 2025 for Westminster.
The britnats can simply sit back in the sure and certain knowledge that the international community won’t recognise an “unofficial” referendum, partly due to the 2014 precedent, but also the SNP leadership’s rank stupidity in fighting tooth and nail to encourage the “indyref only” narrative and set its face against Plan B.
I hope I’m wrong and something can be salvaged, but here’s the thing: do many folk on here (apart from party ultras) honestly think the gradualist leadership have it in them to force the issue and prioritise the sovereignty of the Scottish people and their parliament over Westminster’s attempted veto?
Lorna Campbell @ 8.49
As courts don’t appear to consider hypotheticals, might it not be necessary for Scotland’s elected national majorities to make the matter non hypothetical first?
Why didn’t the National ask these questions that desperately need asking?
Soft interview. Why.
Stoker: “ Does anyone know the best way to go for voting in The Scottish Borders region?”
Happy to help. Unless there’s a change of leadership, don’t vote SNP. The important thing is to express that now and at every opportunity. And mean it.
You’re welcome.
Sandy Thompson 4.28pm
Explain to me exactly what Sturgeon and co have done in the past six years that positively shows her commitment to independence. You say you know her so that should be easy. And will you apologise to the rev if Sturgeon does not call a referendum in May.
@ Willie , Willie I think it was you (correct me if i’m wrong) who posted a section of Mike Russell’s book where he was all for implementing the privatisation of the (our)SNHS I have been posting parts of it on other blogs within the comments section , If it was you Willie could you post the complete section as I would like to post it so everyone can see the duplicity of Russell’s faux socialism . TBH it would sicken me to have to buy the book to confirm your quotes and possibly contribute financially to his skewed vision
@Hatuey says 6 December, 2020 at 9:44 pm
“Unless there’s a change of leadership, don’t vote SNP”
I can never quite work out if you lot are so incredibly thick or so ignorant that you think everyone else is.
Colin Alexander @ 8.29…absolutely correct Colin.
Holyrood is a bogus sideshow that can and will do nothing about changing our subjugated status. It is a subject and constricted colonial talking shop e.g. consider the Bifab fiasco and all the other Capital investment fuck ups constrained by Holyrood’s abject economic impotence.
There is only one way to dissolve the Union and that is for all the pathetic nemotodes that comprise the SNP MPs at Westminster to declare the Union over and let their leader o’the pudden race Blackford, lead them out. A plebiscite could follow,if desired, and representations to the UN to complete the separation with the failed English state. Next May’s election is a con trick, another display of compliant political marionettes being jerked off to a tired soundtrack of repeated promises of jam tomorrow.
Sick to death of hearing all the Senior Tories reading
From the same script no matter what disaster is befalling their department-
“we are working very hard”
No your not! You lot wouldn’t know hard work if it bit you on the arse!
When Brexit is a disaster will Lord Frost go without anything?
Will multimillionaires Johnson or Cameron sitting with candles
around their last can of corned beef waiting for their Universal Discredit coming in?
ElGordo on 6 December, 2020 at 10:10 pm:
Don’t worry, as much as i detest her, i’ll not be taking that advice. Scotland comes first in my book. If she was to drop down dead tomorrow i’d laugh but i want to be prepared for the new year. Scotland has to be my concern not Sturgeon. I’ve been at this too long to give up on it at this point. Bitching about her online is holding us back. Time is not on her side. As i said earlier, if she doesn’t produce the goods in 2021 she needs both metaphorical barrels.
Eh it isn’t clear who made the comment about Nicola Sturgeon dropping dead
It was either Stoker or El Gordo
Who ever it was cut it out and act your age ffs
Sometimes grown ups read this blog don’t chase them away with stupid comments IMHO
Ian @ 4.09pm wrote:
“(which became all ‘relevant’ information).”
You’ve noticed too how the snp under Sturgeon routinely use this tactic. They’ll say something on a particular issue and then at some point down the line whatever it was they said there is now a word or two of a difference. Words that usually change the whole meaning of what they originally said have magically appeared from somewhere.
Robert graham on 6 December, 2020 at 10:41 pm:
“Eh it isn’t clear who made the comment about Nicola Sturgeon dropping dead”
It’s clear to all who can read. Fuck off you absolute fanny. Go and read what i said again and the context within how i said it and not the context in which you may be trying to push. And who the fuck made you site moderator? Arsehole!
The SNP is behaving exactly like the Irish nationalist party in the early 1900s. They’ve gone native in britnat Westminster. They only pay lip-service to Scotland’s independence. They are gutless.
The Irish nationalist MPs in Westminster in 1914 eagerly grasped the opportunity to postpone Home Rule when vigorously supporting Westminster’s desire for war. The SNP have eagerly grasped the opportunity given by Covid-19 to postpone indyref2 and independence. I believe if Nicola Sturgeon is still FM she will eagerly grasp the excuse of dealing with the economic consequences of Covid-19 and postpone the fight for independence yet again.
Nicola Sturgeon must be replaced by someone who actually wants independence and is not afraid to do something about it.
Robert Graham 10.41pm
Really???
What gives you the right to be judge and jury of what can be posted on Wings.
And if Sturgeon did drop dead, would I give a monkey’s fuck,,,no I wouldn’t.
It would clear the way for us to fight for our Independence.
She is a hindrance,,,not a help.
@Robert graham says: 6 December, 2020 at 10:41 pm
” Eh it isn’t clear who made the comment about Nicola Sturgeon dropping dead. It was either Stoker or El Gordo ”
It’s very clear, as it wasn’t some random conversation overheard in a pub, it was a written comment on a forum.
Just as well you think as you talk as you type or i might take offence, eh?
@Ronald Fraser
A monkeys fuck?
Not often heard in these parts.
@Ronald Fraser says:
“And if Sturgeon did drop dead, would I give a monkey’s fuck,,,no I wouldn’t. ”
Is that not copyright Harry Enfield & Chums circa 1990?
Same old political con. They are in power hence corrupt.
Nearly enough on NEC to change SNP to its core value.
Next year let’s get more good guys and gals elected.
Stoker says:
6 December, 2020 at 8:51 pm
“*&* celebrating Lizzies birthday or length of time on the throne”
Assuming that she survives that long…
El Gordo
Which parts would that be???
Personally I’m Glasgow parts.
How about you,,, where would your parts be???
Lorna, the EU are well aware that majority of Scotland want independence, and so are the UN, after the Catalan attempt,
Not one of those bodies stepped forward to help the people to the right of self determination or the abused cruelty towards the Catalan people, (it may be wrote down, but not adhered to, or practiced)
Besides that issue, there are at least a number of others, (a) I am left wondering as to how much time, you think we have left? We do not have years, months or even weeks to act, or go through such a long process, before the last vestige of sovereignty is taken or given to Westminster via the Scottish parliament,
(B) If the EU were seriously listening to Scottish sovereign people, and they thought we would gain independence, why do they negotiate with England for Scottish fishing area waters, power or produce,
(C) we are very naive in Scotland, to ever think that a devolved parliament from England would ever say yes for a second referendum, when they came so close to losing it the first time, it sent shock waves to the establishment, the first time was more accidental and hadn’t been thought through, and they were over confident, not this time, they just say NO.
The quick legal avenue available to the Scottish people, is having the “right to choose whom governs us “, Acknowledged in Scotland and agreed to by England. In “the claim of right”. And recognised in Europe,
We do not need the snp, the Scottish government or the English government, Why?
Because it says the claim of right, is the people of Scotland.
Claim of right, Wikipedia,
And read the other articles, there are at the present time no changes made to the claim of right, since it began in 1689, it is part of Scotland’s constitutional law as well as Great Britain’s,
It is legal,
And can be used by us, the people of Scotland, not a government.
Lorna, the EU are well aware that majority of Scotland want independence, and so are the UN, after the Catalan attempt,
Not one of those bodies stepped forward to help the people to the right of self determination or the abused cruelty towards the Catalan people, (it may be wrote down, but not adhered to, or practiced)
Besides that issue, there are at least a number of others, (a) I am left wondering as to how much time, you think we have left? We do not have years, months or even weeks to act, or go through such a long process, before the last vestige of sovereignty is taken or given to Westminster via the Scottish parliament,
(B) If the EU were seriously listening to Scottish sovereign people, and they thought we would gain independence, why do they negotiate with England for Scottish fishing area waters, power or produce,
(C) we are very naive in Scotland, to ever think that a devolved parliament from England would ever say yes for a second referendum, when they came so close to losing it the first time, it sent shock waves to the establishment, the first time was more accidental and hadn’t been thought through, and they were over confident, not this time, they just say NO.
The quick legal avenue available to the Scottish people, is having the “right to choose whom governs us “, Acknowledged in Scotland and agreed to by England. In “the claim of right”. And recognised in Europe,
We do not need the snp, the Scottish government or the English government, Why?
Because it says the claim of right, is the people of Scotland.
Claim of right, Wikipedia,
And read the other articles, there are at the present time no changes made to the claim of right, since it began in 16
Could not agree more with your assessment Rev Stu.
The SNP have done nothing, achieved nothing these last six years. Now as Nicola says was not the time, and only recently she was saying that it still wasn’t because there was a virus and then an economy to fix.
I for one no longer trust the current SNP leadership. Yes as Sandy Thomson at 4.28 says Russel, Sturgeon, Swinney were once committed to independence. But that is clearly not now.
As I say what we have in place is a government that has done nothing. A government that has pursued the most despicable attempt to destroy Alex Salmond. A government that refuses openness and transparency and refuses the will of Parliament to disclose documents. A government that pursues unwanted and frankly detested GRA and Hate Crime agendas. A government whose party leadership has taken over and usurped the democratic function of that party.
And now it’s clear for all to see as Russell dissembles as his most recent National
Incentive shows. But Russell and the gang have been found out and the wider membership and electoral audience know it.
SNP1 and Indy Party 2 is now an absolute must now in May 2021. The current SNP leadership cannot be trusted. Hopefully they will be gone before May and new leadership in place.
Brexit is an act of colonial subjugation, not democracy.
That it isn’t being furiously contested as an act of subjugation and reckless, unconstitutional vandalism reflects a measure of profoundly alarming incompetence.
That subjugation contravenes the Treaty of Union and modern International Law means that defeating Scotland’s subjugation would render the Union untenable and irremediably broken. Scotland would emerge from that dispute as an Independent Nation recognised internationally.
That the SNP did nothing to defend Scotland’s constitutional sovereignty, still do not propose doing anything to defend Scotland’s constitutional sovereignty, and yet advocate a referendum manifesto that is fundamentally compromised by their senseless abandonment of Scottish Sovereignty, then the problem we have with the SNP is not a matter of trust, but their dismal strategic incompetence.
Defending Scotland from unconstitutional subjugation would have provided Scotland with a Constitutional Backstop to derail Brexit and have the International Community backing us, as they’d be required to do by International Law, precisely as precisely happened for Northern Ireland and the Good Friday Agreement..
Unless and until the SNP finally wakes up and demonstrates some latent and long overdue awareness of Scotland’s constitutional strength, and then actually makes determined moves to defend it, then I cannot in good conscience vote for the SNP and their forlorn strategy, which undermines Scotland’s sovereign constitution and leaves Scotland’s sovereign people subservient to the will of Westminster and any mandate from English voters.
Mike Russell asks for trust to complete “the” plan, the plan that has already overruled a sovereign mandate to dispute Brexit, squandered a golden opportunity before an open goal to crash the farce that is the 1707 Treaty of Union, and see the nations of Scotland and England revert to their pre-Treaty status as Independent Kingdoms.
No Mr Russell. Not only do I withhold my trust from you, I demand you desist from this inept and unconstitutional folly, declare Scotland is in a state of constitutional emergency, and finally, act decisively like a proper Government, and vigorously dispute Scotland’s unlawful Brexit subjugation.
Frankly, you have dithered in incompetence for so many years now that I fear I cannot now trust the SNP even merely making the attempt. I will not trust the SNP until they’ve seen it through and the thing is done, and before the years end, an existential Constitutional dispute exists pitching the Constitutional Sovereignty of Scotland against Scotland’s unconstitutional subjugation by the UK Government, and the whole farce is the subject of a Constitutional Test case at the UN.
Scotland’s subjugation is a breach of International Law which cannot be addressed by small minded myopic politicians who ask for endless trust and mandates as they fumble in total darkness.
Faith is the excuse people give when they have no real evidence for their belief. If you have evidence you don’t need faith. I’ve seen no evidence to believe Mike Russell and have seen plenty of evidence to disbelieve him. He can keep his faith mantra for the gullible. Make the 2021 Holyrood election a Plebiscite election for Indy and I’ll start to believe that the SNP really want independence. Any thing less is unacceptable.
James Che 12:27
“(B) If the EU were seriously listening to Scottish sovereign people, and they thought we would gain independence, why do they negotiate with England for Scottish fishing area waters, power or produce,”
Succinct. Tricky Nicky’s position went from we will not leave, to we will rejoin at some point while conning the Scottish people into believing that a vote for the SNP would stop Brexit. Now they stand by in silence while two third parties trade away with Scotland’s resources and people for their own benefit.
Mike Russell.
Pish.
Twathater,
The passage you are looking for was published by Craig Murray, https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2020/11/michael-russell-neo-liberal/
An Alyn Smith type article in the National from Stephen Paton.
It goes something like this, its all our fault, and the FM isn’t captured by the wokies.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18924911.stephen-paton-snp-party-dramas-cost-us-independence/
Did I hear correctly on the news that Lord Frost had
offered concessions on EU Fishing rights?
You know the Scottish Sovereign Nations waters and
Fish currently owned by England and given away by
England for a trade deal that suits England.
Breeks @7:32
Bravo! Send that to Mile Russell.
*Mike*
Sturgeon faces growing SNP rebellion over leadership style
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/dec/07/sturgeon-faces-growing-snp-rebellion-over-leadership-style
Interesting last paragraph.
.
BTL comments section can be a bear-pit.
But every now and then, you find a precious diamond of an observation which is on par with the high calibre of forensically researched articles that rank WoS in the 800,000 site visits per month.
Denise, thank you for posting your wise and thought-provoking words. A literal Cullinan amongst gems.
I do agree with Holymacmoses in that Alex Salmond has paid his penance for inflicting Nicola Sturgeon upon the Scottish Independence movement. If everyone thinks back to 2015 we ALL believed the award winning actress and her “jam-tomorrow” wheesht for Indy roadshows.
Few of us could have forecast her real agenda as she looked out for her own McWoke faction and all of her sycophantic Pension Pete taxpayer funded seat-warming feckless wonders. As she accepted over £6,000,000 Westminster short-money (2015-2020) to fund her lifestyle as Queen Bee and has now sold us all down the river on five occasions. President Mike Russell-Trump forgets many of us have long memories. The McWokeist SNP squatter in Bute House’s election mantra of “Indy Next Year” is a promise broken 5 times already.
Enough.
Denise, methinks you have a great point and your words are well worth quoting in case anyone missed them (cough cough, Alex + Craig + Kenny + Stu)…
———————————————————–
Denise says:
It’s time for Alex Salmond to return.
If Alex Salmond leads a list party and it gets 30% of the list vote – very achievable; this would give the party 25 MSPs and Alex would be the leader of the largest opposition party.
It’s the least he can do after foisting Nicola on us.
6 December, 2020 at 2.47 pm
Alex Salmond was in charge when we lost Indyref1.
Breeks: “ That it isn’t being furiously contested… reflects a measure of profoundly alarming incompetence.”
Not if you look at things from the perspective of simply wanting to win elections. From that perspective, Scotland getting ripped out of the EU and treated like shit is wonderful thing.
For every core supporter you lose, you win two new supporters who wish they’d listened to you sooner, etc., and so on.
They’ll be cashing in all those failed efforts to stop Brexit and secure a referendum for another 10 years at least.
Kerching!
From the Gruniad piece linked to by Heaver @ 10:12
“Another prominent activist, “distraught” at the results, urged other members to reaffirm that equality and independence “go hand in hand”.”
Since when did gender woo-woo and the erosion of rights of 50% of the population in order to accommodate 0.05% “go hand in hand” with Indy???
If anyone thinks the SNP leadership wants independence, ask yourselves this:
Would the planned woke policies survive scrunity in a two-chamber parliament of an independent Scotland, which would be the focus of attention on TV and in the media in the same way that Westminster politics are in the UK in general?
The only way that woke politics can get on the statute books is through a devolved assembly that few take much notice of with only one chamber, currently dominated by parties all on board with anti-biological agendas. [And long may this last, I bet they are all saying!]
Alex Salmond went afraid to have an Indy ref when he started at a base figure of 28% support for Independence.
Nicola Sturgeon has a base figure just now of double that ,but still wont try to force the issue.
A leader needs courage.
Breeks at 0732am,
I think this is the point. It would seem the SNP are either unaware or unwilling, in terms of recognising their strength. That they are not actively pusuing the defence of Scotland’s constitution, has given succour to the English Tories.
They see a weak SNP, feart to use its democratic mandates and power. They see an SNP leader wholly unwilling to take a stand and defend it. They see an SNP government happy to plod along, whining about how unfair it all is, but doing absolutely NOTHING about it.
As I said some time ago, the English Tories must be laughing their socks off at just how pathetic and obedient the SNP and especially its leader have become.
Given all of this, why would Mike Russell expect anybody to trust them with independence?
As Heaver says at 10.12am, the last paragraph of the Guardian article is interesting.
‘SNP sources’ said of the new NEC –
‘They may have influence, but they don’t have power’.
Also, the ‘sources’ point out that – ‘A very small percentage of party members voted.’
It seems the new members have a battle on their hands.
So that’s it out now in the open.
Identity cards are being introduced under the cover of COVID immunisation.
Long suspected by many it has now been announced that in England and Wales immunisation with a vaccine will be conditional upon every individual being issued with a smart identity card that records their key biometric data.
It’s certainly not difficult to see how this identity card will morph into the Pass Card previously used in apartheid South Africa – which is exactly why the card being introduced from today onwards tells people to carry it with them at all times.
And of course the fascist Scottish Government have their card ready to go too after the initial announcement by England and Wales.
The state is now at war with the citizen and like apartheid South Africa, or 1930s Nazi Germany we must resist this. The state and its corporate masters are our enemy. Fascism is here.
robertknight @ 11.02
Some don’t appreciate that equality through independence (and hence self-determination, which is always decolonisaton) is fundamentally about ending the oppression of an ethnic group of people – the Scots – by another dominant ethnic people.
This is probably the best thing I’ve read on covid and the vaccines, https://www.barrheadboy.com/covid-19-vaccine-should-i-or-should-i-not/
The reason that the article is good is it shows the narrative being spun by the marketing departments of the pharma companies, the politicians and the media is far from reality. Instead of being a miracle cure from which we can all go back to our old ways it show that the success of vaccines in development or efficacy is much more nuanced and for every gain there are trade-offs. Instead of this being a one-off battle, dealing with covid is a protracted campaign in a larger war.
You really need to read the article at least twice. It raises a lot of questions but more importantly it shows many areas where with a little more effort and organisation we could really be in a much, much stronger position with regards to covid, vaccines and public health in general.
The obvious first step is simply to ban the mainstream media or politicians from opening their mouths and put the medical profession in charge.
Strathy says:
7 December, 2020 at 11:26 am
Also, the ‘sources’ point out that – ‘A very small percentage of party members voted.’
It seems the new members have a battle on their hands.
The displacement of Wokeraratti members from the NEC does feel like significant progress, but I remain troubled that the list of SNP candidates for the 2021 Scottish Elections was vetted and approved by the former NEC, loonies and all, not the new one.
Anybody able to convince me we will not be trying to rid ourselves of these disruptive people all over again in April/May next year? Or worse, trying to divorce their fanatical GRA agenda from another lacklustre promotion of Scottish Independence?
And while we’re about it, can anybody persuade me the SNP is actually worth salvage, if they have no apparent survival instinct, and need to be dragged kicking and screaming to defend Scottish interests?
When you’re part of a long line who have accepted vassal status on behalf of the natives (and lived comfortably on the proceeds) for over three hundred years, how do you tell the colonial Masters that things are about to change? What do you do when the colonial Masters say “We’re too busy just now – run along and play nicely.”
You don’t do anything because you never do anything. Why would you?
Wilkie
You are completely nutty in your comparison of the recording of the first part of Covid vaccination with Fascism and Apatheid pass laws.
Everybody has medical records, except possibly those who are terrified of doctors and vaccinations..you perhaps.
“They may have influence, but they don’t have power.” said an unnamed activist.
I assume this unnamed activist is genderwoowoo apologist. If the SNP do NOT drop the genderwoowoo and hamza’s thought crime bill then I think the membership will go elsewhere. I know I will.
I would suggest to the new NEC that they immediately recognize the term TERF as a slur (because it is) and expel sine die any member using the term.
The genderwoowoo brigade are a tiny minority of loud-mouthed , misogynistic bullies. Unquestioningly supported by Nicola Sturgeon. They have got to be expelled.
“They may have influence, but they don’t have power.” Sounds oddly deluded to me. Isn’t influence power? And am I the only one who hears ‘utter cunt’ for ‘activist’these days?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/dec/07/sturgeon-faces-growing-snp-rebellion-over-leadership-style
Absolutely right Breeks about the candidates going forward for the 2021 Hollyrood election.
The rout of the Wokes was clearly evident at the NEC election but the impact of the machinations of the previous NEC and the ruling clique most certainly has had an impact on the selection of those going forward in May.
With the most obvious example of this being the restrictions being placed on individuals like Joanna Cherry QC MP or any of the other high profile high ability MPs such as maybe Dr Ohillipa Whitford there are also the other impacts of the biased vetting committees rejecting people like Caroline McAllister from contesting her home constituency of Dumbarton.
So yes, whilst the members may have spoken in both the candidate selections and in the NEC selections the Wokes have not been totally outed. Quite how this will play out remains to be seen. Time is very short and we need to get rid of the old guard who have sold us down the river on independence and everything else very very quickly if the SNP is to recover.
SNP1 and an Indy Party 2 with both committed to pursuing independence through all constitutional routes, nationally and internationally has to be the preferred way. Whether the Wokes will try to stop this, would prefer to wreck the party will remain to be seen. Sturgeon cannot remain at the helm unless she wants to destroy the party, or have it replaced.
Over the immediate future we all need to push to get the regime change we need and I’d be hopeful that come the New Year we’ll see some major developments.
Fireproofjim
Except your medical records are in the possession of your doctor. Letting the government and their friends have access is not going to end well.
I love the way people discuss the virus and the vaccine from a standpoint of splendid isolation. It’s as if the National Association of Denture Wearers set up a committee to discuss a new brand of toothpaste.
Here’s another way of looking at it.
Imagine you’re lying in an empty room on a bed with a Hoover tube down your throat. Without that tube your lungs would cease to function. Nevertheless, oxygen levels in your blood are so low that the doctor has forecast you probably have no more than an hour or two to live.
The nurses are up front – you’re going to die imminently. Nobody is allowed in to visit you and say a final “goodbye” but you are allowed a phone call.
Would you feel the same about the vaccine in those circumstances? If so, in your last harrowing phone call to the person that means most to you in the world, would you advise them to wait a year or two before considering the vaccine?
The risks of the virus are real. Countless thousands of people in the world and the UK have died in the circumstances I described above. The risks associated with the vaccine, on the other hand, are hypothetical.
Stuart Mackay@12.11.
Yes Stusrt and it’s actually worse than what you say. The NHS database is available to anyone who has access to it, and that is not just your doctor.
The NHS data base moreover is aced by the Home Office, the Border Agency p, the HMRC and others. The Home Office and Border Agency as a matter of course, and have now for many years, run residency checks. ( look at the form that you sign to join a practice and you’ll see that some forms actually say agree to the sharing of data )
And then there was the Named Person proposal whereby local authority cooirdinstion of personal records was to be hung around the NHS data base, thereby allowing data base to talk to data base.
Sad to say that folks like Fireproofjim are either ignorant of all of this stuff or alternatively believe in the benevolent tooth fairy who would never ever ever think of national identity card – national records available at the touch of a button or swipe of a card.
Willie
As you say, the NHS has had our medical records for many years. In my case over seventy.
In all that time no authority has ever used these records to make me carry an ID pass so why do you think they are suddenly going to use a new vaccination to do that.
Just a bit of your usual paranoia. Away and buy tinfoil. I hear they make lovely hats.
If vaccines become mandatory then we are fast becoming like China, old Soviet Union or hittlers regime,
When the right of choice over your body, your mind or wether you can go outdoors or even travel, and when you know that pressure is first put on you by coercion and media’s social emotional blackmail to conform, and if you don’t you know that the next step is totalitarian authority to take your choices away,
When you are blind to the steps, stages and manoeuvres of governments you sleep walk into given up your sovereignty,
@ Stuart Mackay 9.44am Thanks for that link Stuart
James che 2.37pm, if vaccines become mandatory, i’d like to see the state try and enforce that on the people of west Belfast, Derry, Armagh and the border counties. No sheep there.
Mike d ?
Mike d that was meant to be a smile emoji,
Mike d that was meant to be a smile emoji…….
Something weird going on with the iPad. Doesn’t want to follow my instructions.