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Soapbox: What price freedom?

Posted on July 19, 2020 by

It’s literally carved on the walls of Parliament.

“I ken, when we had a king, and a chancellor and parliament men o’ oor ain, we could aye peeble them wi’ stanes when they were na gude bairns – but naebody’s nails can reach the length o’ Lunnon.” (Sir Walter Scott)

There are those who stay and there are those who leave. Since the 1700s the eyes of the ambitious Scot have looked towards London. Many have made the journey there and, as with Ireland, Scotland’s most precious export has been its people.

But for those of us who have remained in Scotland our eyes are still turned south.

Since the union of Parliaments, all of Scotland’s power and wealth went to Westminster so the wealthy and the powerful, as well as those who sought such things, went there too. With the re-establishment of Holyrood, some powers have come back, but only at the behest and permission of Westminster.

The wealth, however, has stayed there with Scotland only given some limited choice over where to spend what it is apportioned, a pocket money parliament working with one hand tied behind its back and both shoelaces tied together.

The Scots are a more confident people now than in 1997 and one of the reflections of this is the disappearance of the “cringe” associated with the use of Scots language, as demonstrated on the quotes on the Canongate wall of the Parliament building.

But in every other aspect, everything we do, every step we take, is done with that crick of the neck turned towards London, a feeling of just not being as good as them. Nowhere has that been more obvious than in the current attitude of the SNP towards independence and other independence supporters.

Britain is currently facing its worst economic crisis since the Second World War. The combination of Brexit and the chaos from the coronavirus pandemic is combining into a force that will hit the UK like an express train in a few months’ time. In that crisis of mismanagement and incompetence lies an opportunity for Scotland. There has never been a more compelling case for arguing for independence than the current situation we face.

So how is the SNP reacting? They’ve stopped talking about independence. While our people feel the full blast of oafish ineptitude courtesy of Boris Johnson, the SNP seek at every turn to avoid being seen as political, to avoid being accused of taking “advantage” of a situation which has seen thousands dead in Scotland and over 40,000 deaths across the UK.

Instead it is burying its head in legislation like Gender Recognition Act self-ID reform, and when anyone mentions independence we’re told, “Now is not the time” and to provide yet another mandate for independence, which coincidentally involves the SNP winning elections.

We’re told we have to be cautious in case London says no to any steps that we take to secure independence. At a point where the movement has an open goal in front of it, we are deferring to London and simultaneously tearing ourselves apart. It’s dire.

The Independence for Scotland Party (ISP) want to turn our eyes away from London, and back to where they should have been all the time; here in Scotland. The SNP Westminster campaign in 2015 had a picture of tartan benches in the House of Commons even though the SNP has no real place being in the House Of Commons. It’s meant to settle up, not settle in.

But if we can see the importance of removing unionist MPs from the benches in Westminster, why can we not see the importance of it in Holyrood? We need to make Holyrood our own and that means clearing out the rump of unionist supporting MSPs and their accompanying network. It is the oldest British colonial trick in the book; if you wish to rule a people, go and sit amongst them, then divide and rule. The only parties in Holyrood that oppose independence are funded by their London-based headquarters, that’s no coincidence.

As long as Holyrood remains divided betwixt unionists and nationalists, Scotland will be ruled by Westminster. While we squabble over whether Scotland should or shouldn’t be independent Westminster continues to control our wealth and choose where we might exercise our powers. Unite Holyrood on the issue of independence and we will gain the momentum we need to take control of all our powers, all our wealth and choose our own future.

We aim to provide a political home for independence supporters who are not comfortable with the direction the SNP is headed. After the 2014 referendum result, the majority of Yes supporters willingly corralled themselves into the pen of the SNP, but six years on and we’re no closer to independence.

Even when the Brexit vote happened and Scotland looked to be dragged out of the EU against our will, all of the focus from the SNP was on stopping Brexit, not on independence. It meant it was too easy for the movement to be targeted and side-tracked and we are now seeing the results of that in the inability, or unwillingness, of the SNP to move forward.

Indeed, according to the First Minister’s own promises we should have had a second vote by now. Late 2018 or early 2019 is what we were told – before or just after we left the EU was, she said, essential to show Scotland wanted to choose a different path.

But Theresa May said “now is not the time” and that was simply accepted instead of being challenged. And now Boris Johnson says the same, and once again Scotland shuffles meekly back to its kennel.

Some have accused us of splitting the independence movement, but that’s not the case. This is actually a long overdue and necessary regrouping of the independence movement. We are too big and too diverse a group of people to fit into one party. Some of us do have a different view on self ID, or economics, or education. We don’t need to fall out about it. The one and only thing we do all need to agree on is that Scotland should be an independent nation again.

The SNP needs to grow up as a party and understand that they do not hold the monopoly on independence, or any other policy for that matter, and that diversity in opinion and in the movement is a healthy thing. Independence supporters who hold different views from the SNP are not second class Yessers.

Having another party increases the political flexibility of the movement and it keeps us all honest. For far too long the SNP has been the only show in town for independence supporters, making it all too easy for Westminster and the media to directly equate support for the party with support for independence.

The loss of seats in the Westminster 2017 election was used to deny the strength of support for self-governance, while an increase in seats in 2019 was ignored by Westminster. Yet again a Section 30 order was requested, yet again it was denied, and yet again the SNP did nothing but accept it and say that Westminster would back down eventually.

We have news for you all: Westminster won’t back down. Ever. Especially when they think Scotland will choose independence. Yet SNP say a plan B isn’t what we need, we just need to give them yet another mandate with a majority at Holyrood, a parliament with a system specifically designed to avoid any one party having a majority.

Well, a little healthy competition does no harm – it could both increase the number of pro-indy MSPs and act as a spur in what is meant to be our main reason for existing; pushing the case for an independent Scotland.

We need to lose our fear, shed the cringe, stand tall and proud. Here’s the truth. Whatever we choose to do to gain independence, London is going to say no to it. That’s a given. Why then, should this stop us from acting? We need to defy them to say no. London is not the only player in this game.

We need to see ourselves in the eyes of our fellow Europeans who view Scotland as the country with some of the biggest oil and gas reserves in Europe and the greatest potential for green energy. We are vitally important to the future of Europe and the Europeans know it; why do we not understand that that is the key to our freedom?

We are not naïve. We are not ignorant of international law or of the UK’s position as a permanent member of the UN security Council. But neither are we of the opinion that Scotland is powerless to act without Westminster’s permission. Give us your vote and we will push this, from the minute we enter Holyrood to the minute Scotland gains its independence.

We will not be silent. We will be the voice of the Yes groups, the advocates of the unheard and the reminder to the SNP that their purpose is not to rule a devolved government forever on the back of pro-independence votes but to use their power at Holyrood to get independence for Scotland.

If we do not decide our course as a nation now, Westminster will decide that course for us. The answer lies, as it always has, with Scotland and the Scottish people. Let us take our own fate in our own hands and act while we still can. Because if we do not act soon, we may not get the chance again.


Soapbox is a weekend column designed to provoke debate on (usually) non-party-political issues. The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of Wings Over Scotland, except when we write them ourselves, obviously.

If you’d like to contribute a Soapbox piece (ideally 800-1500 words), send it to us via our Contact page, INCLUDING THE WORD ‘SOAPBOX’ IN THE SUBJECT LINE.

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  1. 19 07 20 10:56

    Soapbox: What price freedom? | speymouth

  2. 19 07 20 19:19

    Soapbox: What price freedom? –

434 to “Soapbox: What price freedom?”

  1. Me Bungo Pony says:

    Its RISE all over again. Just when we think Indy is within our grasp, up pop the malcontents to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. How very depressing …. Though not if you’re a unionist.

  2. Andy Ellis says:

    @David Hooks

    Good piece David. Let’s hope more and more folk wake up to the point you make.

    Thankfully not everyone is a hard of thinking slavish party loyalist like Bungo.

  3. Me Bungo Pony says:

    @Andy Ellis
    “Let’s hope …. ”

    And there’s the rub. Ask RISE how that went.

  4. Bob Mack says:

    @Bungling Pony,

    Snatch what victory? In order to be victorious you have to win something. In this case a referendum, and there is no prospect of that on the horizon.

    That is no fault of any Indy supporter,but rather of the party who has been promising that very thing. It is them who are failing to deliver.

  5. Heaver says:

    Bungo: different voting system, different game. If you want to increase the number of Independance minded msp s in Holyrood, vote SNP and ISP. Taint rocket science.

  6. Famous15 says:

    Unless a timeline for independence is declared by the SNP I will seriously consider giving my list vote to another indy party. RISE was too far left for me. I am slightly left of centre.

    I laugh at Unionists who cheat all the time crying “ cheat”.

    How can you cheat democracy by voting as you wish?

  7. Dan says:

    @Me Bungo Pony

    Could you please tell us of the actual process we are going to grasp Indy with?

    Interesting that you have immediately commented with the “It’s Rise all over again” trope.
    Rather than repeat what’s already be said btl a couple of articles ago. I’ll link back to the start of a chain of responses to you from other commenters and myself countering your view.

  8. Oor Steve says:

    Long time coming. Where Scotland wakes up to the gaming that Westminster has been doing. Play them at their own game. There is nothing to lose if we ‘keep the heid’ and empty Holyrood of unionists. London ruled parties which have no place in Scotland. Count me in.

  9. Auld Rock says:

    David, will you tell all of us who have supported Scottish Independence for years (in my case 61 years) just how we mount a total campaign given that Covid-19 is still rife throughout the UK and the world and could without the necessity of severe restrictions on mass meetings, etc how you would recommend a campaign?

  10. Effijy says:

    Like so many desperate for Scotland to regain its Independence, it’s dignity and its place in the EU
    I tell myself that giving Boris more rope will hang him, I say one more mandate, I say wait until
    The Virus is subdued, wait until January when we are completely detached from the EU, wait until
    We deliver another majority in the Holyrood election of 2021.

    I am an SNP member still but the reason is my desire not to show Westminster that they are loosing
    Thousands and their support is now failing.

    If there was another Independence Party who appeared to have a chance of gaining a majority then
    I would jump ship instantly. I will give that party my second vote in 2021 and complete refute the Unionist chant of cheating.
    If ever a a pot called the kettle black.

    I demand the SNP roar as we have low manageable Covid figures, leave the EU and on yet another
    Holyrood majority.

    The party is useless if these opportunities are not capitalised. They can put the bolt on the door.

    How can this nation accept a PM who openly declared his contempt for us. a man of the lowest morals being an adulterer, a womaniser and a man who uses physical violence to restrain a screening woman in her own home.

    The Tories have never been given a Scottish majority in over 65 years and yet they have ruled over us for most of that time. They have pathetic in their Brexit negotiations in managing Covid 19 and now we see Billions being given to their supporters in non disclosure contracts without tendering.

    If we can’t beat a government with blood on its hands, corruption in its heart then we should be hiding in a cave looking for inspiration from a spider.

  11. aulbea1 says:

    Got to go with David Hooks.

  12. Effijy says:

    The Marr show reports NHS England has exaggerated Covid Death figures?

    Every piece of independent information that I have seen proves that their Covid
    Death stats are 10’s thousands lower than they actually are?

    The excess death figures in England leave this in no doubt.

    The Tories are a mix of Hitlers pre war government and Orwell’s 1984.
    They decided the meaning of words and figures and bear the right to change
    Those meanings as suits their corrupt purpose.

    They lie they cheat they distort and they demand that only they are right and
    there is no resistance in the wind from any point on the compass.

  13. Ian Foulds says:

    Ref – Me Bungo Pony

    Surely the wasted SNP second votes are likely to go to ISP and thus bolsters the chance of more Independence supporting MSPs in Holyrood and diminishes Unionist representation who only got in because of D’Hondt. Even if Rise had been successful that to would have diminished Unionist representation. I do not know why they were not successful – possibly because those who voted SNP1 were convinced by SNP that the second vote should go to them. Now we are all a little wiser, we should be voting more tactically to drive the Unionists out, as they do nothing for the people of Scotland.

  14. shiregirl says:

    A great read. The SNP don’t reflect my political views anymore and I am no longer a member. I am one of those politically homeless looking for a party that is actively pushing for independence in my lifetime whilst upholding womens rights rather than giving them away.
    I in all honestly don’t recognise the SNP as the party I once voted for and were representative of the people. I also don’t recognise many of the MPs who were also once of the people but now have been turned by the career machine of westminster.
    How sad, I helped fund this.

  15. Rm says:

    @David Hooks, lots of people are thinking like yourself, if only the SNP party did, if only the SNP would embrace the new party and turn it into the political wing and push for ending the union.

  16. Bryan Weir says:

    At the moment the SNP is all policy without passion (for independence). Looks to me that what you are proposing is all passion without policy.

    Voters want passion and policy.

  17. stonefree says:

    Yes, RISE once again,
    The article has many valid points, the SNP regard folk pro-independence but not SNP as second class (as stated)and unworthy.
    The active members (the ones who go to the meetings)think and worse believe they are superior and nobody else matters, they don’t countenance anything but Sturgeon.
    MacAlpine sprouted in the papers, his usual, Common Weal? Think Tank?….Good ideas? Well yes to a point , that point being the representative personas have their own agendas, mostly their self-importance
    Was not MacAlpine not close to the centre of the RISE implosion? It seems so long ago
    I feel I can’t neglect Bella , yesterday….seriously?
    A bad boy from Bath and GRA ??. ffs
    As things stand,Scotland is going to be treading water for the next 10 years, or until Sturgeon gets the pension.
    It’s at the back of my mind that Murrell has so much dirt on party members, MSPs and MPs , that nobody is going to question, what is the only game in town

  18. Doug Buchannan says:

    Same old nonsense and self indulgence from chancers with a track record in absolutely zero whose judgement and motives can’t be trusted!

    The SNP, FM and the independence movement have take us to within touching point, now is not the time to rock the boat when we are approaching 60% support.

    As for the gender recognition, you plainly lie about this, it’s off the agenda and not under discussion, you are pushing right wing unionist garbage, that frankly, no one gives a flying fig about. If you do wish to bring this to the fore, do it when we are independent, not now. It’s a toxic debate that should have no bearing whatsoever on a country securing its freedom!

    Furthermore resurrecting politicians from the past, it is not going to happen, they too have lost trust and no matter their achievements, their time has come and gone.

    Do you need to know anymore than unionism will be delighted and hoping chancers such as this are successful! Divide and rule, how may times does this have to be highlighted and it’s damage to movements and causes throughout history explained?

  19. panda paws says:

    An excellent piece by David. I’d be delighted if the SNP were the party that delivers independence. However I see the beginnings of a worrying resemblance to Labour – vote for us for home rule and abolition of the HoL which never, ever happened.

    “For far too long the SNP has been the only show in town for independence supporters, making it all too easy for Westminster and the media to directly equate support for the party with support for independence.”

    THIS! Witness 2014’s refrain of Alex Salmond’s referendum or the SNP’s bid for independence. Yes RISE was a disaster and perhaps the new parties will fail too but unless there is a catastrophic drop in the SNP’s constituency polling, voting SNP on the list will be a waste of time in all but two regions of Scotland anyway.

    I don’t think there is any doubt that the SNP has been infiltrated by entryists more interested in their pet projects and power than indy. So don’t blame the electorate if some people decide to change their votes accordingly.

  20. Dave M says:

    This is long overdue. We need plurality in the independence movement, desperately. There are three Unionist parties, while we are stuck with the SNP and, nominally, the utterly mad Greens. The result of this is an SNP which has essentially become the Labour Party which it always used to aim most of its fire at in the 80s and 90s. They have become complacent and hubristic in the face of useless, policyless opposition; and their own social policy agenda has become increasingly bizarre.

    Sovereignty of the people only counts if and when we have the ability to make choices which reflect our own priorities. Does the current SNP really reflect our priorities, or are they reflecting the priorities of their friends in apparently science-denying third sector organisations? Organisation which receive generous taxpayer funding, no less. That’s a conflict of interest at best; corruption at worst.

    All the while, the SNP dangles the carrot of a referendum, but only if we just keep voting for them. Yet independence is the word they dare not utter. Why do they not mention the very thing they were formed to bring about? The short answer is that they are too used to power – or a limited version of it. They want control, but why not responsibility? For responsibility is what comes with independence.

    We deserve to have other ways of reflecting our political wishes in Scotland. It’s unhealthy for the Yes movement to be effectively held hostage by the SNP, particularly when they have done absolutely nothing to advance the cause of independence in the last six years, preferring instead to promote strange fringe interests. I for one would prefer Scotland in the World than Scotland the Woke.

  21. BK says:

    That’s it, Stuart. I’ve followed, and agreed with most of the sentiments expressed in, your blog for years. I hoped that the worm thrusting its head out of the apple was a temporary diversion. But now, clearly, it’s more than that. It’s a monster that threatens to split the Independence vote and, ultimately, reduce the likelihood of Independence. I urge all yessers to give both votes to the SNP in all future Holyrood elections.
    I will now boycot this blog and I suggest that all those who agree with me would best serve the cause of Independence for Scotland by doing likewise. Join me in denying divisive voices like Wings the oxygen it desires.

  22. Vivian O'Blivion says:

    Nicola’s mum says Scottish independence is Nicola’s “life long” ambition. Average female life expectancy in Scotland is 81. So, free by 2051 it is then. Fuck that!

  23. FiferJP says:

    Yessers: Open goal!
    SNP: Nah ahm offside.

  24. Aye it’s always jam tomorrow

  25. Mike K says:

    If the Bungling Pony thinks this is rise all over again.

    Can I advise him that all the loons that would be attracted to a RISE type party are now thoroughly ensconced in the SNP.

  26. Breeks says:

    Me Bungo Pony says:
    19 July, 2020 at 9:19 am

    …Just when we think Indy is within our grasp, up pop the malcontents to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

    I’ll sign up to being a malcontent, but not because Indy is within our grasp, but because Indy was within our grasp, when the Scottish Electorate emphatically voted to remain in Europe, and that vote wedded to Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty, provided for Scotland to secure a Constitutional Backstop and thereby, the capacity to deliver Westminster an ultimatum that it should abandon Brexit in deference to the sovereign integrity of the Scottish Constitution, or consider the Union Treaty to be at an end if Westminster sought to overrule Scotland’s sovereign edict.

    The very same strategy of Backstop was very effective securing access to Europe for Northern Ireland, whereas Scotland has been drummed out of Europe by Westminster’s colonial subjugation, while the Scottish Government caved in on all fronts, and far from protecting Scotland’s Constitutional interests, picked up the colonial Scotland Act as a club with which to batter Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution into a corner. Westminster itself could not have done a better job sidelining and Scottish Constitution and undermining Scotland’s doctrine of popular sovereignty.

    And what has the SNP delivered from it’s bundle of mandates? Nothing. Not a godamned thing. It’s been left to private, non governmental initiatives to keep the pot boiling; AUOB marches the length and breadth of Scotland which Scotland’s First Minister doesn’t even have the grace to attend.

    The SNP sit perplexed about the Section 30 veto which they handed to Westminster, and it takes another private initiative to take the SNP’s paralysing conundrum and at least make some attempt to thread a legal argument through the law courts and secure a workaround for Scotland which the SNP couldn’t even be bothered to look for.

    How many Legal precedents does it take for the SNP to notice? Joanna Cherry, as part of a private legal initiative won a landmark ruling that Boris could not arbitrarily prorogue the UK Parliament to avoid scrutiny, because under Scots Law, the people are sovereign, Parliament serves the people, and the UK Parliament could not remove itself from scrutiny from the people.

    The essence of Joanna Cherry’s victorious case to clip the wings of Boris Johnson UK Prime Minister, has Scotland’s sovereign Constitution right at it’s heart, and provides modern, up to date precedent that the essential principles of Scotland’s Constitution, that is the proper Constitution of the Nation, (not the aspiring rogue contender to be our Constitution which the Scotland Act represents), but defining Constitution of the Scottish Nation still has force in law.

    The SNP is not steering us towards Independence. Since 2016, when they turned their back on Scotland’s Constitution, they have been paddling their own canoe, making up the rules as they went along, and have come unstuck because Westminster cannot overrule the sovereignty of Scotland, but it can overrule a cabal of naive know-it-all politicians who are dumb enough to think democracy is the trump card of a sovereign constitution.

    We HAD victory! Independence and a seat in Europe! It was there at our feet, and Nicola Sturgeon took it upon herself to look the other way. So yeah, I’m as about as much of a malcontent as malcontents get. She’s not going to sell Scotland down the river, she already has, and the SNP beg for more.

  27. prj says:

    Another article telling us how to get rid of unionist MSP’s. Great, sounds good but no substance. How is this to be done?

    How is the ISP going to achieve 30%+ of the list vote to make the difference? So far this idea is communicated across social medial and various blogs. So a favourable response is more forthcoming from this source, creating a false picture of support for this idea. Bearing this in mind how does the ISP plan to reach all the SNP supporters and convince them to switch there list vote?

    What happens if the SNP lose constituency seats and the ISP don’t make 30% of the list vote? We stand to lose an Independence majority.

    A factor is the Starmer effect, how will that affect the unionist vote, how will that affect the SNP vote? especially the Labour vote who moved to the SNP at the last election. The answer to that is we don’t know. Starmer at present is saying no to a referendum. To win votes he may give a faux promise on a referendum, we just don’t know.

    At present we have an Independence majority and we also had one in 2011. Granted the Greens are required to maintain this majority and they have used this to gain influence in the SG. The ISP hopes to do the same, hopefully influencing a decision on Independence. But and this is a big but, the ISP is probably going to be made up of factions from different ideology within the Independence groups. How is discipline going to be maintained, what is going to stop them breaking up into different fringes? We do know some of the fringes in the independence movement and some are like Marmite, you either like them or you don’t. Even recently some with strong socialist ideology have discussed supporting Labour to gain socialism in the UK. If this happens the unionists will make it a big deal and use it to harm the independence cause.

    One more thought on a super majority in the Scottish parliament. Unionist rhetoric already state the SG is undemocratic because of the SNP’s success and many want the SP disbanded. Can you imagine the rhetoric if there is a super majority, especially from Westminster? So far the system that was put into place by Westminster isn’t broken. This makes it difficult for Westminster to interfere in this “democracy” but when this “democracy” is deemed to be broken as in a super majority then Westminster will interfere. A super majority will be the catalyst to disband the SG under the pretext of being undemocratic, this will be sold by the MSM.

    There will be a hell of a lot of people not liking this post, but I do feel these are all issues that need to be answered.

  28. stuart mctavish says:

    Its only RISE II if its to the left of the Greens. If it can attract honest people from across the political spectrum it becomes the real deal, arguably more so than the SNP (ironically).

    Catch 22 is that whilst SNP’s 74 (74!!) remain unchanged, the first 8 of the ISPs seats would come from the 10 currently predicted for the greens so, unless there is transparent collusion from the top, a nod and a wink on the ground, and/or something from left (right?) field like Alex and Adam Tomkins at its core, the risk of attracting vitriolic distraction remains high.

  29. Astonished says:

    The SNP leadership have brought this on themselves. The SNP used to be a very broad church welcoming all. They have been hijacked by the woke.

    The hubris of allowing fully anatomical men to declare themselves women. And thinking that will be an end to the matter. Yusuf’s frankly idiotic and repellent ‘You’ve hurt my feelings so you’re going to jail for seven years’. And the utter failure to live up to their previous statements (Blackford especially).

    The SNP are going to lose seats in the Holyrood election unless they change direction soon.

    For those of us who want independence but detest self I.D. and humza yusuf’s self I.D. protection bill – ISP is our only home.

  30. Johnny says:

    Dave M:

    Quite agree, plurality is overdue. Indeed, any multiplication in pro-indy parties would only foreshadow what everyone expected regarding the SNP post-independence, i.e. that the ‘broad church’ would split. It might just happen before that now, instead.

    I am in the ranks of those who don’t think it’s awfully healthy that they keep promising to do something and the signally failing to do it. I am also not interested in ‘oh but they never *specifically* said they would do it at X point!’ type arguments. This is where Robin McAlpine’s ‘stage wink’ point gains currency; they have collected votes by leading people to believe that ‘just this next thing’ was going to result in concrete moves.

    There will be those who argue that there are reasons it hasn’t happened yet, but in amongst all the talk about ‘cheating’, I can’t help but think that the ‘cheating’ the SNP should be most worried about in the medium to longer term is their own voters feeling they have been ‘cheated’ as they try to appeal to everyone else.

    You can argue whether it’s rational or fair for voters to feel ‘cheated’ on this score but at the end of the day all that really matters is whether they do or not. Comparisons between the SNP and New Labour often abound and it’s hard not to compare some sections of the Yes vote who now feel taken from granted with those Labour voters who’ve deserted them (for different reasons in Scotland and England) because they were off trying to appeal to ‘the moderate right’ or soft Nos’, depending on which country you’re talking about.

    Nothing lasts forever.

  31. Me Bungo Pony says:

    @Ian Foulds
    “Surely the wasted SNP second votes are likely to go to ISP”

    IF that is what happens it would get the ISP lots of MSPs. IF. But that won’t happen. As I’ve said before, the arithmetic of the cunning plan is flawless. However, a general election is not an arithmetical exercise. It requires real people to cast real votes.

    The vast majority of SNP voters are not reading this thread/article. They are either oblivious or not interested in the cunning plan. All the internet bloggery and pamphleteering explaining the intricacies of the d’Hondt system are unlikely to impress them. As RISE, Solidarity and even the Greens have found to their cost in the past.

    The malcontents are only likely to get, at best, either none or 1-2 MSPs at the expense of the SNP and Greens. At worst, they could lead to more unionists in Holyrood as a slight drop in the SNP List vote could be all that’s needed to let them in. Why risk it for no real gain.

    And what would this tiny contingent of ISP MSPs do to magically get independence? According to the malcontents, their mere presence would deliver us to the promised land. No explanation is ever offered as to how.

    The saying goes; “those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it”. That’s what we have here. I can only hope (there’s that word again) they flop as spectacularly as all the other “cunning plan” parties have, thus preserving the momentum independence currently enjoys in Scotland.

  32. Moone says:

    If a Westminster operative, of which we can be certain many are amongst us, wanted to bugger up any chance of this IFS strategy working. All they would need to do is create another allegedly pro indy party or even many of them, all astroturf. Then voters would see too many choices for indy, risking vote splitting, with the resultant beneficiaries being unionists.

    Pro-Indy supporters would then feel safer sticking votes 1 and 2 for SNP.

    Similarly the way to delay the lot, Election timing I mean, would be to instigate another spike in virus infection cases. Sturgeon has, I believe said that the election would take place “virus permitting” or some such other wording but same meaning.

    I hope I’m not being all of a downer on this, but we are vulnerable to those devious evil b’stards actions.

  33. ScottieDog says:

    It was inevitable this would happen. The Scottish Parliament is over 20 years old and worryingly it looks like the SNP are making the mistakes of Scottish Labour.

    Robin McAlpine took a roasting for referring to this..

    “Some supporters of the First Minister relish the prospect of the fight. The new fundamentalists who demand a referendum will, says one Sturgeon ally, have to show exactly how they are going to organise a referendum that’s recognised as legal and would allow for Scotland’s return to the EU. If they cannot do this then, in the words of this particular campaigner, “they can shut up or f*** off”.

    I keep hearing the disdain of many in the SNP towards new parties citing their ‘lack of credibility’ over certain policies.

    The above quote is highly hypocritical since their own policies very much lack credibility. This is a party which cannot say how exactly it would be allowed to enter the EU whilst not having its own sovereign currency. Remember a sovereign currency was very much against the growth commission proposals until Andrew Wilson’s impossible 6 tests had been achieved.
    Neither can they explain how we would avoid austere policies since we would have to sign up to the EU stability growth pact which limits govt deficits to 3%. An absolutely crazy rule the SNP brush over like it didn’t exist.
    For the avoidance doubt, the U.K. was exempt from adherence to the stability growth pact, Scotland won’t be.
    So David’s proposal of EFTA membership already holds more credibility than the SNP’s approach to the EU.

  34. liz says:

    I see Bungo again panicking on behalf of the SNP – do they pay you well?

    I sense a real panic in them, the amount of abuse that ISP have taken , is shocking, even to the extent of questioning their mental health.
    And the FM has the nerve to talk about sexism in the press.

    Also give me a break, the menopause is not the last taboo.

    How dare the staffers at SNP think they can get away with that. The fact that, yet again, no one is disciplined, leads me to believe the SNP is now morally corrupt.

    Bungo I didn’t believe project fear when the unionists spouted it, and I certainly won’t be believing from you

  35. Republicofscotland says:

    Well said David, you’d never get Sturgeon coming on in here and laying it out, hell she doesn’t even attend AUOB marches, from a party that’s meant to see independence as is number one goal.

    Most of us in here have expressed concerns about the SNP’s glacial move, if at all, to independence, I say the more independence minded parties at Holyrood the better.

  36. Graf Midgehunter says:

    Well said David Hooks.

    Clearing out the Brit Nats and strengthening the indy majority in Holyrood is only a stepping stone forward, it’s not in itself a referendum but symbolises that Scotland is gaining more power and actually ready to do something with it.

    RISE was a fringe grouping whereas the ISP comes from the heart of the YES movement and with it brings more capabilities to spread the necessary recognition with the potential voters.

    The Rev, maybe AS as well as other “big” hitters would further boost the national image of ISP as a partner for Independence in HR.

    WM and the rest of the Brit Nats are definitly rattled, it’s something they forgot in their tactics. They didn’t expect the Scots or their “Grand Master” in Bath to come up with a plan to give them a big kick in the Crown Jewels as well as forceing the SNP to recognise they’re not the only ones in the Indy game.

  37. AndSpouse says:

    Couldn’t agree more. Good piece, thankyou.
    I do get upset when I think of the fact I loaned out my vote to SNP on the grounds they’d accept the agreement from me that they used it for Indy2.
    Indy parties only methinks.

  38. AndSpouse says:

    It’s inevitable! The longer it takes The more we will be asset stripped!

  39. Proud Cybernat says:

    @David Hooks

    I have considered lending my List vote to ISP because I genuinely believe it will:

    a) Deliver more Indy-supporting MSPs who will give the SNP the kick up the rectum it severely needs.

    b) Potentially help to spike stupid SNP policies such as Self-ID.

    Then along came some other List parties.

    Look, this Indy List Party strategy will only work if it is ONE single party and preferably one with a political big-hitter (you know who I mean). That is the ONLY way this strategy will work because two or more Indy List parties will simply split the List vote and the BritNats will ride on right thru the middle. With two or more Indy List parties (and no big hitter) this strategy WILL FAIL. But if this is what ends up happening then come election day I will be remaining at home and the SNP can whistle Dixie. They’ve had enough of my mandates and more than enough of my patience.

    Indy List Parties – get your heads together and get yourselves organised. If you all can’t agree on specific policies then park them for AFTER indy and agree what you can in order to form ONE List Party. It’s ONE or NONE.

    We have a very small window of opportunity here. For the love of Scotland, let’s try and work together for once instead of against each other.

  40. Beaker says:

    We need to get away from treating a vote for independence as a courageous decision, by using emotion as a reason to vote yes. The harsh reality is that economics and financial impact will determine how most people will vote.

    If emotion was the primary driver, the 2014 result would have been a resounding victory. It wasn’t. And I doubt if most of the No voters were influenced by the “Vow”, which to me is used too often as a handy excuse.

    Brexit, harsh as it is, can be a useful ally for independence, but only if used wisely.

  41. Josef Ó Luain says:

    A worthwhile contribution, Mr H. Unfortunately, confidence and belief in anything other than the wretched status quo has always been in short supply here in Scotland. It was similar thinking, many years ago, that informed the vote which saw Scots naively relinquish the oil-card in favour of the status quo. Everything has changed, but nothing has changed, it appears to me, at any rate.

  42. Ken McNeil says:

    Note to Stu. Would be helpful if a short bio of the contributers to Soapbox was included.

  43. Me Bungo Pony says:

    The level of delusion on this thread is remarkable.

    Under this SNP govt led by a woman who is now the most popular and respected politician in the country, their support has grown to 55% with support for independence at sustained record levels on the back of it. Yet we are to believe they have “failed”; that they are a “busted flush”. It’s nuts.

    Anyone who thinks knifing Nicola Sturgeon in the back, undermining support for the SNP and replacing some of their MSPs with an Indy version of UKIP (or unionists depending on how badly the cunning plan fails) will somehow magically deliver independence is kidding themselves. How will that happen?

    The echo chamber of an internet site is not representative of the country as a whole. It only represents the views of the people who inhabit it. Something many on this site seem oblivious to.

  44. Me Bungo Pony says:


    Obviously, I am not in the pay of the SNP. I am in the pay of the NHS. I’m just a guy who works Monday to Friday (sometimes weekends) and spent yesterday afternoon painting his shed. And you can be certain that when I go into work on Monday, people are going to be far, far, far more interested in the colour I painted the shed than they are in the contents of this thread (not hard as that would be zero interest).

    PS The shed is sky blue with cream trimmings. We’re quite pleased with it 🙂

  45. John Dickson says:

    SNP 1 ISP 2, get independence then clear out the woke.

  46. Patricia Spencer says:

    Absolutely on the nail! It’s with escalating interest watching the tactics,abuse and derogatory language used to describe those who dare question the ‘both votes snp’ mantra! Especially from fellow indy supporters!

  47. schrodingers cat says:


    a bit harsh. folk are just scunnered. but for all their comments, none have actually said what they would actually do with this super majority? what extra power would this give nicola that westminster couldnt ignore?

    but after saying that, in 7/8 regions 850k snp list votes elected one snp list msp, maree tod.

    Is an indy list party a risk? Yes. Is it a big risk? No. Is it a risk worth taking? Yes.

    will a super majority at holyrood make a difference? Id like to think that bojo would cave in and say, “well offski then scotland, see wot I care” but i would bet on it.

    we live in interesting times

  48. Allium says:

    To be fair, even if it only got rid of one Green MSP, I’d feel that a new party was worth it for that reason alone.

  49. Asklair says:

    Regional/list vote is not for the SNP anymore. ISP appears to be the symbolic indy party to have ownership of our 2nd vote.

  50. Dan says:


    Just in from painting my newly made window sills myself…
    Why are you discussing the colour of your shed with your co-workers and not bringing up the subject of educating and discussing the political reality we are currently dealing with.
    On here you are talking to many activists who communicate with each other, groups, and the wider community.
    Just because you can’t comprehend or acknowledge what could be possible with an agreed united campaign strategy, don’t start pissing your negativity into the tent of those that spend a huge deal of time and effort trying to resolve this situation.

  51. tartanfever says:

    Me Bungo Pony

    ‘The echo chamber of an internet site is not representative of the country as a whole. It only represents the views of the people who inhabit it. Something many on this site seem oblivious to.’

    So why are you here and why are you worried ?

  52. McDuff says:

    MBP 9.19
    Explain how Indy is “within our grasp” when you have a leader who is overwhelmed with indifference towards Indy. Six years since the referendum and we are up just two points since then.
    So tell me what has the SNP been doing to secure our freedom. The plan?

  53. Me Bungo Pony says:


    IF it works with little or no detriment to the SNP …. great …. phew …. dodged that bullet. But as a cautionary sort who would rather keep his money in the bank than bet the lot on a long shot at Kempton Park, I’d rather the risk (which goes beyond mere voting; unionist propaganda opportunities etc) wasn’t taken,

  54. schrodingers cat says:

    McDuff says:
    Six years since the referendum and we are up just two points since then.
    actually, we got 45% in indyref1
    So tell me what has the SNP been doing to secure our freedom. The plan?

    increasing support for indy to 54%, up 9 points

    jus’ saying 🙂

  55. Daisy Walker says:

    @ Doug Buchanan

    ‘The SNP, FM and the independence movement have take us to within touching point, now is not the time to rock the boat when we are approaching 60% support’

    The SNP, FM have let the frog come to a boil slowly…. almost there now, as soon as a no deal Brexit is over the line, we lose Holyrood in all but name – jobs a good’n.

    Sunday National today full of articles about Westminsters Holyrood power grab, dismantling devolution.

    Well, I told them so, and I told everyone here it as well.

    Question, would they be so confident to show their hand just now, if the FM and co were likely to put up a fight?

    With a No Deal Brexit we lose our NHS, our farms and food standards, our whisky industry, our oil and gas (obviously) and any opportunity to re-invest oil profits into renewables will be gone.

    We are so screwed and we have 1 minute left to stop it getting over the line.

    Forget parties just now, put that to one side, look at what needs to be done, and then we do it.

    Someone else above said SIP were a party without policy. Right just now, I’d say that is a good thing. Its about Independence. Everything else is second to that. And the electorate have been through so much now, on an emotional level, it has to be now all about Indy.

    RE the comment about SIP being the new RISE…. actually its about the SNP being the New Labour and NS being the new Tony Blair.

  56. Johnny says:

    Me Bungo Pony doesn’t understand what hubris is or that pride comes before a fall.

    At some point, a Scottish Labour Party wallah said “och we are miles ahead in the polls, untouchable. All they folk saying there’s mumblings of discontent are in an echo chamber. Nah, the wider voting public isn’t going to vote for somebody else. We’ll see off these interlopers!”

    The interlopers then would have been the (admittedly long established but still interlopers in the minds of the Labour Party and some of the public) SNP.

    Labour were eventually toppled and they still don’t really understand how it happened and blame yir voters for catching onto their game!

    Proof that if you take the electorate for granted for too long, you’ll be punished eventually.

    The only question is how soon that point is reached UNLESS you actually deliver on your key promises (Labour never did).

  57. Geoff Anderson says:

    I have read the articles on this blog for many years. It was a daily ritual to read the blogs and posts at work breaks.
    I gained an enormous amount of knowledge from a wide variety of people who once posted on here.

    It is with a great deal of regret that this is my final visit. The aggressive, abusive language of the site guards has been negative and corrosive. As someone who has only recently started posting I have not received any abuse but today I witness others being attacked because they dare to question the inner circle.

    It is truly sad to see such a great site turn into a bear pit.

  58. schrodingers cat says:


    the unionists will howl at the moon no matter what we do. bbcPravda here in scotland is in full propaganda mode, us discussing a new indy list party wont change that.

    re horse racing analogy, yes, the future is always an unknown

    but we arnt making random decisions, we arnt pinning a tail on a donkey, from where i’m standing, im betting the house on a thoroughbred in a race against a bunch of knackers yard dodgers

    ps, i know a lot about horses. wy wife’s a nag 🙂

  59. Dave M says:

    Me Bungo Pony

    ‘The echo chamber of an internet site is not representative of the country as a whole. It only represents the views of the people who inhabit it. Something many on this site seem oblivious to.’

    Well the SNP makes social policy to appease a handful of loud (party and otherwise) activists on Twitter (used by 1% of the population), so perhaps they ought to listen to your advice.

  60. Confused says:

    it’s not the new RISE – more like the


    – RISE had more baggage than a Hermes catalogue

    the real trouble with the SNP is they want to be the “Super Greens” – a bourgeois, social democratic party, fully signed up to every strand of identity politics; it loves legalism, rules, structure, compromise, committees, procedurals – the disruption and decks clearing involved in independence is psychologically terrifying to them.

    if the new party fails badly (and it will be tough anyway) – it will be because they have no media profile

  61. Tony O'Neill says:

    Nicola sturgeon =toom tabard imho.

  62. schrodingers cat says:

    Confused says:
    if the new party fails badly , it will be because they have no media profile
    if it fails, it will be because they fail to convince the snp voters on the list to back them

    a simple point that the “snp ate my hamster” brigade here would do well to remember

  63. Athanasius says:

    A LITTLE to the right of the SNP, as far as I can see, but not nearly far enough to effectively distance the ISP. I’ve repeatedly said, you’re going to need a proper, small c conservative party dedicated to independence (and social conservatism is NOT automatically unionist) to get it over the line. Just allowing MSPs a free vote on issues of conscience and opposing the self-ID laws is not enough.

  64. Effijy says:

    Geoff, please remember if you work for the Tory Government, BBC, Right it Left wing newspapers,
    Military Intelligence or you are just a dumb Unionist they will come on this pro independence site and
    Disrupt in every way possible.

    There is a whole lot of money on their side so they have all the divide and disrupt options available and we, the tax payer can pick up their tab.

    At least for some posts we see the false claims of the union and learn how to shoot them down in flames.

    I see this as my site. I’ve learned so much here, I need to see there are so many like minded good people out there. I won’t be scared away, lied away or distracted from our goal.

  65. Neil Anderson says:

    Surely the best candidate for any list seat is the pro-Indy candidate with the best chance of winning.
    It’s ridiculous to see any of us playing party interests over this.
    ISP & the other ‘new list’ parties need to merge into one new list party fast, & I’d be interested to hear from anyone involved if that’s happening.
    The possibility that 2 different new list parties might stand in a list seat is astonishing.
    The idea that SNP should not stand aside where another Pro Indy candidate has a better chance is nonsense
    Or if the Greens won’t stand aside in the same circumstances because their other policies are more important to them than independence, is that acceptable to the rest of us who take the view that independence comes first.

  66. Jim Lynch says:

    David Cameron agreed to a Referendum because he was convinced we would lose it.

    However he got a fleg, so did Theresa May.

    The Treaty of Union is undemocratic – think we should look at that.

  67. schrodingers cat says:

    If a new indy list party does wipe out a whole heap of useless unionists msps… good

    this site would be better off discussing how they go about doing that

    i’m not convinced creating a super majority, will make any difference, but its worth a try

  68. schrodingers cat says:

    Neil Anderson says:

    ISP & the other ‘new list’ parties need to merge into one new list party fast, & I’d be interested to hear from anyone involved if that’s happening.

    um… the isp have already told the new alliance party that they are taking their ba’ away. not going to happen

  69. Muscleguy says:

    Not seen you here before, wonder why? RISE shot themselves in the foot with a witless, pointless ignorant about what is devolved & reserved attack on the SNP. They could have attacked the Tories and FibDems but no, it was the SNP. I wanted to like them but that ensured they would not get my vote. It could have come from the Labour Party press office it was that bad.

    The ISP are expressly not an anti SNP party, we will pressure them into doing better for Scotland not attack them every FMQ for the sake of it. When they deserve praise we will give it. There will be no Bain principles. If we think the SNP need stopping, over GRA or the Hate Crime Bill for eg we will seek a coalition of the willing (in the NZ sense) to do so.

    Scotland has not actually fully settled into multipary democracy yet. Pace Sturgeon not even phoning Patrick Harvie first to congratulate the Greens on their electoral success and secondly test the waters for a full coalition with a Green minister or two or as is custom elsewhere a Confidence & Supply agreement. It was politically naive of her not to do that. The woman she admires Jacinda Ardern of NZ (my PM I’m also a Kiwi) would not have made that mistake. Instead she charmed Winston Peters, a former National (Tory) Party MP & serial National coalition partner into supporting her Labour govt instead. He’s foreign minister. Inside the tent pissing out.

    The problem is she was piqued by the loss of the serendipitous majority because the SNP vote had gone UP significantly (causing them to move that sweet spot). A cause for celebration but she is again too naive a political operator.

    As we also see with the revelation that she is deeply implicated in the reformation of rules bringing former ministers under the Holyrood disclplinary procedures, if she did not see the potential for them to hit Alex Salmond she damn well should have done, if she did see it and chose to ignore it then damn her, damn her to all hells for the recklessness if not the malignancy towards Mr Salmond. She is damned either way.

  70. FiferJP says:

    @Auld Rock

    Covid-19 hasn’t stopped Black lives Matter. They’ve been quite successful with their campaign during a pandemic.

  71. Me Bungo Pony says:

    Wow, so many people to reply to! Here goes.

    I talk to people at work about mundane stuff such as the shed because that is what people are interested in. One of the lass’s in the lab just had a new lawn lain. We were all interested in that and very nice it looks too. This will be the Pop-Ups biggest problem. The vast majority of people just aren’t as obsessed with politics as they really need them to be in order to be a success.

    As to talking about politics with them. After 35 years of being “the SNP guy” in the lab, none are in any doubt about my politics. They get a free copy of “The National” every day and, if the subject comes up, I will wax lyrical on the benefits of independence for all willing to listen. To foist my views on them would be counter productive. 35 years ago, I was “the only Indy in the lab” (sic). Now I’m just one of many. Guess how many of them are talking about the ISP? I’ll give you a clue. It’s less than 1.

    Did the sills turn out okay?

    “So why are you here and why are you worried ?”

    As I’ve repeatedly said, this madness may garner just enough List votes to deprive the SNP and independence of a majority on Holyrood. History and logistics point to a damp squib but if they take even 1-2% off the SNP vote …. it could be disastrous.

    “Explain how Indy is “within our grasp” when you have a leader who is overwhelmed with indifference towards Indy. Six years since the referendum and we are up just two points since then. So tell me what has the SNP been doing to secure our freedom. The plan?”

    (1) We have sustained momentum with Indy now the majority view in the country and the SNP on 55% of the vote.

    (2) No she isn’t.

    (3) Indy is up 9pts since 2014, the SNP is up about 16pts in 18 months.

    (4) Two things; never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake; never tell your enemy your plan beforehand. Both these things should be obvious to people but, blind to reality, they just demand the undeliverable.

  72. schrodingers cat says:

    Muscleguy says:
    The ISP are expressly not an anti SNP party,

    really?? you jest right?

  73. kestral says:

    Can I make a point here – SNP may not be talking about the GRA, but we woman are, I have talked to many woman in my work about this. Given that the SNP have struggled to win the woman vote in the past and given the overwhelming rejection by woman – ie 80/85% for male bodied people in changing rooms, can someone tell me when the FM will be making the statement that they are dropping GRA reforms, or do they not mind loosing woman voters? its not exactly a voting winning policy

  74. Breeks says:

    Me Bungo Pony says:
    19 July, 2020 at 12:02 pm

    . Yet we are to believe they have “failed”; that they are a “busted flush”. It’s nuts.

    No, it isn’t.

    The poll in my opinion reflects the reality of an out-of-control British Tory Government making a total screw-up of everything it touches, and making the whole UK an international laughing stock. We’ve got Boris Johnson to thank. He’s done more for Scottish Independence than even Thatcher did. The SNP have contributed nothing to the Brexit the narrative, have sat in the passenger seat plotting muck to throw at Alex Salmond while important events have moved all around them, and the 54% in the polls backing Indy in my opinion reflects where we’d be standing if we had a crash test dummy in the roll of First Minister.

    Heaven alone knows where we’d be in the polls if we’d had a Constitutionally literate First Minister who actually engaged with the much desired defeat of Brexit rather than its pathetic and humiliating amelioration… not to mention thoroughly catastrophic Constitutional capitulation and undermining of Scottish sovereignty.

    There are times I need to take a reality pill to look back over the last five years of the bleakest most uninspiring Leadership and reconcile that with the hunger for Independence which Scotland demonstrated after 2014, when the SNP was dominant in every election it contested, riding the crest of Scotland’s political awakening and desire for Independence. Nicola Sturgeon had everything given to her on a plate, and as a cherry to top it all, a Brexit mandate we couldn’t have imagined in our wildest dreams. But what happens? Nothing. The SNP take it upon themselves to stop talking about Independence and hand Westminster a free reign to carve up Scotland’s European interests.

    Nicola Sturgeon literally gave Theresa May the green light to pursue any Brexit deal she liked, by telling her she wouldn’t face the rebellion of a Scottish Indy referendum until Sturgeon knew the details of Brexit. The biggest constitutional lever which Scotland had in it’s arsenal, and instead of breaking the back of the Union on a Constitutional Backstop, Scotland’s Ace Negotiator First Minister renders Scotland’s rock solid anti-Brexit mandate irrelevant, and further yet, gives the UK Prime Minister material incentive to keep the Scottish Government out of the information loop and not party to discussions. Oh my, what Genius!

    If Scotland had a fighter for a First Minister, not a drip, the polls right now would be incidental to a UK Union that was already broken and untenable in Constitutional terms, a secure place in Europe being readied for Scotland, and we’d be facing a ratification plebiscite held amongst ourselves with no foreign interference to formalise Scotland’s Sovereign Nation status, rather than some imprecise mealy mouthed Independence Referendum which we’ll only ever see if the UK Government falls down drunk and stands up concussed and irrationally charitable.

    We’re at 54% in the polls in spite of an SNP government, not because of it. They’re the reluctant impediment holding us back, but yet demanding all the credit for where we are.

    I’ll warn you Bungo Pony, well it’s more of a prophecy than a warning, if the SNP doesn’t buck up it’s ideas and clear out the dross, those 500,000 votes they lost to Theresa May’s snap election will look pretty tame to the electoral battering they’ve got coming, and judging by the SNP’s disgraceful reaction to a pro Independence List Party, the SNP know what’s coming and you can see it in their eyes that they’ll be fighting for SNP List Seats to stave off a total collapse, and the SNP’s legacy under Sturgeon will be Scotland trussed up by the colonial Scotland Act and delivered to the rabid BritNats for our permanent disassembly.

  75. Me Bungo Pony says:

    Not seen you here before, wonder why?”

    I have posted here before. Not often because of the volume of replies making it largely pointless in my opinion. I’ve just got lucky this weekend because I got in at the start. Mostly posted on Bella and LabourHame with the odd post on sundry other sites. Not a pro like yourself 😉

  76. Chris says:

    If it isn’t obvious by now to those seeking Scottish Independence that Sturgeon has absolutely no interest in delivering it then what will it take for those people to wake up? She has now come right out and said it. Nobody with Independence DNA in their body would ever centralise anything and that is the point at which people should have noticed that Sturgeon is on a mission for power and not to make Scotland Independent.

  77. schrodingers cat says:

    Heaven alone knows where we’d be in the polls if we’d had a Constitutionally literate First Minister who actually engaged with the much desired defeat of Brexit
    actually we do, we went into the 2017 ge on a mandate expressly opposed to brexit… we got 38% of the vote

    your post pretty much sums up everyones contribution on here

    “wont somebody else do something, anything”

    the predictions of peak nat are somewhat lame

  78. schrodingers cat says:

    I’ll warn you Bungo Pony, well it’s more of a prophecy than a warning

    ha ha ha ha ha ha

    the words of the prophet breeks are not written on a subway wall but on a wings thread btl

    who would have thunk it


  79. Lisa Scott says:

    Delusional nonsense written by someone who seems to spend his whole life spinning. He should work for the bbc. Currently saying that Colette Walker didn’t receive a penny for readings she did. She was a reiki healer for 9 years. There are reviews on her angel page. Of course she was paid. Maybe if people started telling the TRUTH about the basic things the ISP might be taken a tad more seriously

    Stop trying to make ISP happen. It won’t. Not with this bunch of goons at the helm

  80. Effijy says:

    More on Handcock claiming Covid deaths in England are lower than suggested.

    Is he claiming they are not the worst National figures on the plant and you are
    Only 4 times more likely to die from the Virus in England as opposed to Germany?

    Currently the difference is 5 fold.

    Now there is a stat to show how great England is.

  81. Contrary says:

    If the ISP have an economic policy for an independent Scotland that realises and understands MMT, then any candidate in my region (Glasgow) will get my support and vote. Otherwise, they will just maybe get my vote.

  82. Bob Mack says:


    I don’t think anybody is doing nothing. Many are starting their action by coalescing around a second Indy Party for the list vote at this time. Who knows what the future may bring?

    That,I humbly suggest, will be up to the SNP

  83. robbo says:

    schrodingers cat says:
    19 July, 2020 at 1:24 pm
    I’ll warn you Bungo Pony, well it’s more of a prophecy than a warning

    ha ha ha ha ha ha

    the words of the prophet breeks are not written on a subway wall but on a wings thread btl

    who would have thunk it


    Ha made me chuckle and reminded me of the best cover of a song of all time.

    Warning: You’ll be hooked and on youtube all day listing to this on repeat.

  84. Liz g says:

    Shrodingers Cat @ 1.22
    Somebody is doing something though…
    The Rev and Gavin Barrie posted the directions and the ISP are trying to plough the road.
    If ye’ve a better plan to clear the British from our parliament….. the British mind ye not the SNP…. tell us all what action your takin?
    Because that “won’t someone do something” mantra is looking right back at ye otherwise!

  85. Robert graham says:

    Aye well done Bungo toss in a wee grenade and stand back job done ,

    Back to reality I am a SNP member and have voted in every National ,Council ,European election I can’t remember how many years it’s defiantly since the 60s when Winnie Ewing took Hamilton.

    I wonder if any other members can relate to my experience of contact with the Party , My first was when Tommy Sheppard was running for the deputy leadership position, anyway I was unable to cast a vote and I contacted Tommy to find out what happened and how it could be avoided in future votes , I got a reply weeks after more or less saying get over it it’s done live with it .

    The second time I asked my MP also SNP what was being done about control of the border , the reply was after him checking my name address and membership number was and I kid you not , his reply was a link to the Daily Record , aye the VOW came to mind and he sent me a link f/k ? .

    Not impressed with either response and I wonder if this is a common experience of members or just a isolated incident in both cases ,

    Not knocking the system in place for engaging the membership just wondering if it’s a one off .

  86. One_Scot says:

    Genuine question for those more knowledgeable than myself on the workings of the Scottish voting system.

    If there is to be another Independence party looking for list votes, would it be better if there was only one party rather than say three to maximize the number of MSPs to be returned to Holyrood, or would it just be the same number of MSPs split over three parties?

  87. schrodingers cat says:

    Bob Mack says:
    I don’t think anybody is doing nothing. Many are starting their action by coalescing around a second Indy Party for the list vote at this time.
    good, i’ve been calling for the same since 2014.

    however, even with a super majority, no one, NO ONE, has actually said what they would do with it? what super powers would it have more than the snp? prophets not withstanding?

    the only person to actually put forward a single suggestion here is ian brotherhood

  88. Liz g says:

    One-Scot @ 1.50
    Better if there was only one that we could all get behind Scot.

  89. Liz g says:

    Shrodingers Cat @ 1.55
    If have thought it was obvious what they’d do!
    Independence never allowed to be off the table no matter what else goes on..

  90. Dan says: at 1:55 pm

    What would a super majority do… that’s a chicken and egg situation really.

    I’ll throw this in the mix:
    If all the Pro-Indy Parties stated in their respective manifestos that in the event of a majority of constituency seats won by Pro-Indy Parties, backed up with a majority of vote share expressed for all Pro-Indy Parties standing on the Regional Lists (doesn’t matter about actual List Seats won), then that is a democratic mandate and instruction from the sovereign Scottish people to end the Union.

  91. Kenny says:

    Very well written article!

    Re RISE: they did good work in getting the vote out in Glasgow and Dundee. Without that, there would not have been 45%. Thanks to RISE, our largest city voted not to be in the UK.

    I believe that democracy is never a bad thing. Anyone wishing to stop people forming parties, people voting, the democratic process in general, is very wrong. Please note SNP, in your attempts to shut down debate.

  92. Breeks says:

    Knew you guys were Simon and Garfunkel types, but The Boxer is a better tune for you guys, with the SNP supplying the lyrics.

    I have squandered my resistance
    For a pocketful of mumbles,
    Such are promises
    All lies and jest
    Still, a man hears what he wants to hear
    And disregards the rest.

  93. McDuff says:

    MBP 1.06
    One week before the referendume Yes was in the lead on 52% hence the panic culminating in the Vow which was relentlessly blasted into living rooms resulting in the drop to 45%.
    Why wouldn’t you know that???

  94. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Haven’t had time to read all of the comments so far but quite a few have mentioned RISE as an example of how this whole ISP could go Pete Tong.

    It should be remembered that RISE is an acronym. It stands for Respect, Independence, Socialism, Environmentalism.

    ISP stands for Independence for Scotland Party.

    Doesn’t take a genius to work out that the latter will appeal to many more than the former, especially those who baulk at the mere mention of the word ‘socialism’.

    Indy-supporting Tories and Lib-Dems may be thin on the ground but it’s not inconceivable that they’d vote for ISP – that may be difficult for some Yessers to thole but the fact remains that those people are entitled to cast their vote same as anyone else, and if their ultimate goal is the same, so be it. We can ill-afford to look down our noses at anyone the same way the SNP diehards are currently viewing many of us.

    Independence supporters who hold different views from the SNP are not second class Yessers.

    Hear hear hear to that David.


  95. Michael Laing says:

    Mr Hooks’ article is very well-written, clear and concise. I’d have been much happier if the SNP had taken any meaningful action to further the cause of independence between 2014 and now, and I fear that the setting up of a list-only party/parties will gift the unionist media and politicians an excuse to claim the movement for independence is divided and in turmoil, but I think this is the best option we have to break the present log-jam. I will be voting for the SNP with gritted teeth, and for the best-placed pro-independence, non-SNP list party.

  96. MightyS says:

    I too, spent decades donating to and supporting the SNP, back in the days when they were the joke ‘Tartan Tories’ and we thought 6 MP’s in WM was encouraging.
    I too have seen the SNP mutate into an almost unrecognisable animal that is happy to stay in devolution, all the while assuring their voters how hard they’re fighting for Scotland.
    I too, want independence in my lifetime, cos I think my Grandbairns will have emigrated or been exiled/jailed thanks to the Hate Crime Bill.
    I too realise there is a pandemic on – but if other governments can work on and produce domestic policy during the Covid crisis, I just don’t see why ours can’t.
    I too can’t understand why the SNP have allowed such a violent, abusive TransGender group to trash and burn every female vote the SNP had gained over the past 40 yrs.
    At this point, with no dedicated Yes Leader to follow, my constitutional vote is a huge question mark, but I’ll certainly be voting for the ISP for my list vote, should HR2021 happen.

  97. schrodingers cat says:

    @robert graham

    should your snp mp have lain in the road to close the border?

    what do you suggest?

  98. McDuff says:

    SC 12.30
    The VOW was introduced because a week before the referendum Yes was in tha lead on 52%. Because of the intense media pressure promoting the VOW the indy vote fell to 45%. So Indy WAS on 52% meaning we are up just two points in six years.

  99. Beaker says:

    Important anniversary today (or near enough).

    Boris has been PM for a year. That means if the Tory Party want to topple him then they can do so under their rules (I think). Question is; are there enough MPs who realise what a stupid mistake they made last year?

    And today’s conundrum:

    There’s a shop I passed out walking today, and it sells face masks with just about any design you can think of.

    But you need to wear a mask to go into the shop.

    It’s confusing a lot of people in Rutherglen…

  100. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Dan : at 2:19 pm (

    Until all concerned realise that, we will be stuck in a depressing re-run of “The Life of Brian”. The SNP seem unaware that it is they who are the “splitters” by masquerading as a broad church but pushing an ever narrowing agenda.

  101. schrodingers cat says:


    the only poll showing yes in a lead
    sample yes no dk
    11 Sep ICM 705 49% 42% 9%

    all the rest had yes at 42-47%. the above is considered an out lier maybe cos the sample size is too low, but an out lier none the less

    a prophet who can box, might come in useful

  102. schrodingers cat says:


    the only reason indy is believed to be at 54% is because we have had 2 polls in a row confirming it

  103. schrodingers cat says:

    Dan says:
    I’ll throw this in the mix:

    what a great idea, wish i’d thought of that 🙂

  104. Mungo Armstrong says:

    Me Bungo, all I read from you is what a terrible idea this is but no solution? The SNP are not interested in independence any time soon. I want independence, so why would I vote to strengthen a party that don’t offer what I want?

  105. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Kenny at 2:22 pm.

    You typed,
    “Re RISE: they did good work in getting the vote out in Glasgow and Dundee. Without that, there would not have been 45%. Thanks to RISE, our largest city voted not to be in the UK.”

    RISE didn’t exist prior to Indyref 2014.
    You probably mean “RIC” (Radical Independence Campaign), who did a lot of canvassing and vote registration in Glasgow and Dundee.

  106. Dan says:

    Yeah, you’ve invented absolute everything mate. We get it, the smartphones and laptops and internet we’re typing on was probably down to you, my underpants were probably designed by you, the loaf of bread I am making might be using my ingredients, and my hands to knead the dough, but in reality that’s actually only because you control me too.

    I hadn’t previously seen you state the pooling of all pro-indy votes cast on the regional list, including all parties or individuals accrued counting, rather than seats won. But that was probably only because you decided I shouldn’t think that way… 🙂

  107. robbo says:

    Breeks says:
    19 July, 2020 at 2:23 pm
    Knew you guys were Simon and Garfunkel types,


    Don’t give us it breeks. lol. I bet you listened to that disturbed version more than one already! ha ha

  108. schrodingers cat says:

    @liz g

    some of us are trying to convince folk to vote tactically. that’ll be me you refer to?

    you miss the point about the lack of action by the snp.

    eg, bojo refuses s30,

    what can the snp and the isp actually do?

    yes we can take legal action but i dont hold out much hope for justice from the supreme court, so i ask again,

    what can the snp and the isp actually do?

    answer, very little, we dont have the power, westminster does, that is also true for the isp.

    we have one chance left,

    that is to gain a 50%+ snp vote on the constituency vote

    getting indy list msps to replace unionists is a nice to have but the 50%+ snpindy vote is the end game.

    lets face it, if bojo still says no then arguing about tactical voting will become irrelevant.

    why, cos voting will also become irrelevant. full stop

  109. schrodingers cat says:

    Liz g says:
    Independence never allowed to be off the table no matter what else goes on.

    if we get a 50%+ snpindy result in the constituency and bojo still says no

    there wont be a table !

  110. Robert graham says:

    Cat @ 2-31
    what would I suggest ? Ok smart arse what would you suggest ? , I was asking my MP what plans were in place or were being considered on medical grounds regarding the border crossings , I wasn’t expecting a link to the Daily Record do you think that was a reasonable reply from a SNP MP if it is your very easily satisfied .
    You have a nice day now , I am watching a movie on Netflix so don’t be offended if I don’t continue our sparkling discussion .

  111. Dan says:

    schrodingers cat says: at 3:00 pm

    …what can the snp and the isp actually do?

    …we have one chance left,

    …that is to gain a 50%+ snp vote on the constituency vote

    Why are you suggesting restricting the pro-indy voting options to just the constituency vote element and the SNP?
    You just said you previously suggested what I had stated, but this ^^^ isn’t the same. Why the change?
    Is da cat dizzy from huffin’ on da catnip? 🙂

  112. stuart mctavish says:

    Neil Anderson @12,52
    One way might be to encourage Greens to coordinate/join a leftwing alliance, create a rightwing one in parallel and encourage SNP voters to choose either one for their second vote.
    Net additional independence parties on the list = 1

    MBP @1,05
    Will be following the advice implied your nice shed analogy and forgetting about things that are none of my business shortly but humbly suggest that such nonsense occasionally deserves closer attention, eg by substituting the word “electorate” for “enemy” in your fourth point, the case for a new indy party makes itself.

    Beaker @11,43
    As a fan of harsh realities you may wish to ponder the scenario in which Brexit makes a useful ally for independence only once remainers are converted or purged, factor in that the world has been stopped for 6 months for want of this year’s flu vaccine, and consider the possibility that the latter form of repression is no longer such an impossible proposition as it may once have appeared.

    Big majority is happening come what may (comment to Beaker notwithstanding) so, to paraphrase the Walter Scott Quote, a supermajority will protect the generals from undue influence whilst allowing an early start on future governance by those keen to make a positive contribution

    Au revoir & Good Luck!

  113. Republicofscotland says:

    “what can the snp and the isp actually do?”

    Schodingers Cat.

    Don’t throw it onto the ISP, its the SNP that’s been in and still is in government and as Dave Hooks clearly pointed out Sturgeon has done nothing, zero, nil, nada on the independence front, at a time when Westminster has been in turmoil over Brexit etc. Infact other independence parties at Holyrood wouldn’t even be coming into existence if Sturgeon had struck whilst the iron was hot.

    Instead Dave points out emphatically that Sturgeon meekly kowtowed to Westminster when told now is not the time. I’m not blaming the entire SNP party heirarchy for the open goal that’s been missed, or a more realistic term would be Sturgeon kicking the ball into the long grass.

    Yes we need the SNP to help deliver independence, and it looks like there’s not much of an alternative, however, is Sturgeon the person that looks most likely to deliver it, on her present form that looks very unlikely indeed.

  114. schrodingers cat says:

    Dan says:
    Why are you suggesting restricting the pro-indy voting options to just the constituency vote element and the SNP?

    because, as far as i’m aware, none of the new indy list parties has any intention of standing candidates in any constituency???

    whats your point?

  115. schrodingers cat says:

    Republicofscotland says:
    Don’t throw it onto the ISP, its the SNP that’s been in and still is in government and as Dave Hooks clearly pointed out Sturgeon has done nothing, zero, nil, nada on the independence front,


    i put it to you that the snp have done everything they could do within the constraints of the devolved government.
    what else can they do?

    you need more than 45% support of the population to win a revolution….

  116. Cuilean says:

    I have always adopted the SNP ‘belt & braces’ approach and voted SNP/SNP.

    However, two things have changed my mind on that perceived wisdom:

    1. I am sufficiently convinced that that policy is flawed & more likely than not to maximise the plethora of Britnat parties. If that was not the case, why are Britnats so enraged at the ‘Alliance For Independence’ party?

    2.Oh how I wish the SNP leadership was as focused on independence as it is on creating less safe private spaces, (prisons, refuges, centres) and public spaces (schools, retail spaces, public pools, theatres) for more than half the population. The tail is wagging the dog.

    A second independence party will keep the SNP honest; focus its attention on what its voters want and not what the cabal want.

    That party or alliance will get my second vote without question. It will also end the Britnats tired old propaganda trope that Scotland is a ‘one party state’ and allow the old timer Labour voters in Scotland who ‘just hate the SNP’ to vote against the SNP twice.

    To say I am ‘cheating’ if I don’t vote entirely as I wish (and the Electoral Commission allow), only convinces me that I correct to adopt these voting intentions.

  117. Neil Mackenzie says:

    “We are not ignorant of international law”

    Are we not? It is my very strong impression that everyone is ignorant of international law and, specifically, that the UK government has broken it. Westminster hasn’t just infringed or skirted or bent international law.

    Boris has held up the opening paragraphs of the United Nations Charter which enshrine the universal right of self-determination – to freely choose international status without interference – and burned it to ash in front of our faces. The reaction to that by the vast and overwhelming majority of press, politicians and both pro and anti-independence commentators alike has been one of astonishing ignorance. It’s like they don’t know what actual legal rights are and do not understand that when the UK Prime Minister denies us legal right it is not a legitimate action.

    If that’s not ignorance, I don’t know what is.

  118. Dan says:

    schrodingers cat says: at 3:16 pm

    because, as far as i’m aware, none of the new indy list parties has any intention of standing candidates in any constituency???

    whats your point?

    So you are restricting the demographic options for folk to express their will by denying those that want Indy but have been cast adrift from the SNP because of the Party’s choice of policies they are pursuing.
    51% of Scots are woman, many have concerns over SelfID, many liberal minded folk will not be fans of the proposed Hate Speech Bill, approximately 30% of Labour supporters in Scotland want Indy.
    Stop serving shite drinks in your pub if you want folk to continue to drink in your pub.

  119. Dan says:

    grr spellcheck…”democratic options”…

  120. Republicofscotland says:

    “As I’ve repeatedly said, this madness may garner just enough List votes to deprive the SNP and independence of a majority on Holyrood. History and logistics point to a damp squib but if they take even 1-2% off the SNP vote …. it could be disastrous.”

    Me Bungo.

    How do you work that one out, list votes given to independence parties are still votes for independence. I mean what’s the point of giving the SNP one million list votes and in return getting say four SNP list seats, but a pethlora of unionists seats as well into the bargain.

    At worst the SNP loses a few seats, at best, and here’s the good bit, the SNP would need to work with the other independence parties if a majority was required, and in return they’d need to agree to hold a indyref hopefully. Secondly we’d remove unionist bums from seats such as say Annie Wells or Murdo Fraser.

    It’s not cheating or gaming the system.

  121. schrodingers cat says:

    i smell fear
    article today from the spectator

    The greatest single danger to this government is the state of the Union. Prime ministers can survive many things, but not the break-up of the country they lead.

    No. 10 has a plan to avoid this: it simply won’t allow a Scottish independence referendum this parliament. No legal referendum can take place without Westminster’s consent and it will be declined on the grounds that a generation has not elapsed since the ‘once in a generation vote’ in 2014.

    This approach, however, cannot change the fact that the Union is now in even graver danger than it was during that campaign. In recent weeks, the polls have consistently shown independence ahead. Scottish Unionists are downhearted. When I asked one of the most impressive figures from 2014 how things were going, the answer came simply: ‘It’s over. The horse has bolted.’

    Such pessimism might be an over-reaction to bad polls, but it is worrying how convinced some Unionists are that any second referendum would be lost. Downing Street’s refusal to grant one in this parliament could come under immense pressure after the Scottish parliament elections next year. If the Scottish National party wins an outright majority on a pro-IndyRef 2 platform, it will be hard to reject a request from Holyrood for another vote. A generation might not have elapsed, but an awful lot has happened in the past six years.

    It would be particularly difficult to reject such a request if the Scottish Tories had spent the campaign urging people to vote for them to stop a second independence referendum. When I put this point to one secretary of state, the instant reply was: ‘Well, they must be told not to do that.’

    Other senior Tories share this sentiment. There is a growing view in London that the best way to avoid a Catalonia-style situation is for the Scottish Tories to be encouraged to campaign on domestic issues so that the UK government can credibly say the Holyrood elections weren’t about whether or not to have a second referendum. One Boris Johnson ally who will play an important role in discussions with the Scottish party tells me ‘It would be a folly to make it about the Union’ and that the campaign is a ‘great opportunity to shine a light on the fact that they’ve failed on education. Not enough is made of their failures in domestic policy’. In a sign of how seriously the Tories are taking the issue, Isaac Levido — who ran the Conservatives’ successful general election effort last year — has been carrying out work on what arguments would work best in Scotland.

    The obvious problem with this approach is that the constitution has been the Scottish Tories’ strongest card in recent years. Their revival was based not just on Ruth Davidson’s energetic leadership but on their position as the most unambiguously Unionist party. Jackson Carlaw, the new leader of the Scottish Tories, has little of Davidson’s panache. A campaign led by him in which the Scottish Tories unilaterally disarmed on the constitutional question would not end well for the party. But according to colleagues, Carlaw is also much more inclined to listen to London than Davidson, who was keen to plough her own furrow. So, if Conservative Campaign Headquarters requests that he downplays the prospect of a referendum, he is unlikely to reject the request outright.

    Influential Scottish Tories fear that repeatedly saying a referendum won’t happen could end up ‘derisking’ the prospect of another SNP government and so could lead to an increased vote for the Nationalists. But one possible compromise is a campaign based around ‘priorities’, making the case that even though Westminster won’t grant a referendum an SNP administration would spend its time agitating for one rather than attending to the many matters that are actually devolved to Holyrood.

    But whatever the Scottish Tories say in the campaign, it will be hard to refuse to engage on the issue of a referendum if the SNP wins an outright majority. The SNP will be able to frame this as London denying Scotland the choice that it voted for.

    One of the few consolations for Unionists at the moment is that proper attention is now being paid to the issue in both Westminster and Whitehall. This is as welcome as it is overdue. Many of the problems in the management of the Covid crisis have been caused by Whitehall not properly understanding what is devolved, and what is not. For example, Downing Street failed to appreciate that a quarantine for those arriving in the UK couldn’t simply be put in place by Westminster. Instead, it would have to be agreed by the devolved administrations as it was being done under a health regulation, and that is a devolved matter.

    The pandemic has served to highlight just how many things are now devolved. The sense that the Scottish government has used its powers well during this crisis, a sense that isn’t entirely borne out by the facts, has boosted voters’ confidence that Scotland can do things differently — and better — than the rest of the UK. But what this misses is how an independent Scotland would not have been able to muster anywhere near the same economic response as the UK government has done. In the early years of independence at least, it wouldn’t have had its own currency and central bank — which would have severely restricted its options.

    The next skirmish between Westminster and Holyrood will be over the internal market bill. The SNP will claim that the UK government is attempting a power grab; they know that if they can make it Nicola’s government versus Boris’s they can win that argument in Scotland’s court of public opinion. In fact, the bill is a sensible measure about ensuring that Scottish doctors can still work in England and vice versa after Brexit and other such things, but the UK government has failed to properly make this argument. One exasperated Scottish Tory complains of a ‘sheer lack of attention. We don’t roll the pitch’.

    Devolution was meant to kill nationalism stone dead. On that basis the current settlement has clearly failed. Yet, however much of a mistake it may have been, it is hard to see how it is politically feasible to roll it back. It might well be time for the UK government to start thinking about whether a federal model could best keep the United Kingdom together.

    James Forsyth Political Editor of the Spectator.

  122. schrodingers cat says:

    Dan says:

    So you are restricting the demographic options for folk to express their will by denying those that want Indy but have been cast adrift from the SNP because of the Party’s choice of policies they are pursuing.

    they can vote for a new indy list party on the list. however, how can i be accused of restricting the demographic options of folk to vote how they wish on the constituency vote when all the new indy list parties have stated quite clearly that they wont stand candidates in constituencies????

    you’re not making much sense dan, or should that be loretta?

  123. Ottomanboi says:

    Independence movements have generally been minority movements that is of minority seeing an alternative to the enforced, repressive and stultifying status quo.
    Scots and Irish created Unionism. It is not a natural state for your average English person who is happy to consider these islands off north west Europe a species of Greater England acquired by right of historic annexation. Union treaty? Bollocks to you Jock.
    The nations within those islands are handy UK plc tourist attractions roughly on a par with Cornwall or Yorkshire that prior to annexation had zilch going for them. They didn’t even speeka da English, for God’s sake.
    For the 300+years of the British state’s existence England’s has been the driving culture. I regularly read things like England in WW2, England’s imperial reach, England’s diplomatic prowess, England’s colonial legacy etc. In century 21 it still appears in the literature, even “for England James” as a character in a Bond movie proclaimed.
    We have enough data about what we are dealing with, the failure to act on it looks rather pathetic.
    Almost as if we enjoyed the sado-masochistic relationship.
    At some point soon we’ve got to quit this house of bondage.

    On a Covid theme. How to make something out of nothing in Nigeria. Population 203 million. cases 36k.
    Powermania is a terrible disease.

  124. Republicofscotland says:

    “i put it to you that the snp have done everything they could do within the constraints of the devolved government.
    what else can they do?

    you need more than 45% support of the population to win a revolution….”

    Schodingers Cat.

    I’ll take your second point first, you know fine well as many others in here do, that once a indyref date is announced, that, that figure almost always tends to rise, a five or six percent jump, possibly more isn’t outwith the realms of possibility, especially since Westminster has been in turmoil over Brexit for years. How did Sturgeon capitalise on this, she didn’t, she stayed tacit on independence.

    As for your first point refer to my above paragraph,and Sturgeon could’ve publicly appealed to the International community that Westminster was/is denying our sovereign right, as a nation in a union not a region, to democratically decide whether we want to remain in this union or not, as the circumstances of the union have changed dramatically since 2014.

    Actually doing something is vastly different to be seen to be doing something, Sturgeon falls into the latter.

    Finally ask yourself this, what would Alex Salmond have done if he were in Sturgeons shoes, since the Brexit debacle began.

  125. Dogbiscuit says:

    Hey Bungle away and play with Zippy.

  126. Margaret Lindsay says:

    Great article David.

  127. callmedave says:

    Today’s figures:

    N. Ireland….don’t report weekends.Total……556..(Friday)

    WM Gov have ceased reporting UK Total corona virus deaths.

    Only 1 death in Scotland in the last 11 days.

  128. george wood says:

    Using the Holyrood election as a de facto Independence vote is a non-starter, whether you look at the whole vote or the constituency vote only.
    The unionists and the press would not be stupid enough to treat it as such and make the election about the SNP’s record in government, rendering the result unclear.
    You would not get the numbers voting to make it a serious plebiscite.

    All we need is an Independence supporting majority at Holyrood – obviously we don’t have that at the moment. They call for a S30 and that will get refused.They call a referendum regardless, which we win and declare Independence.

    The current SNP leadership won’t go for it, so we need to vote SNP1 Independence party2 and hope we get enough SNP MSPs in the constituencies who actually want Independence elected. Hopefully they will defy the SNP leadership and help the push to Independence.

  129. Republicofscotland says:

    If this isn’t an indication that Sturgeon should be getting her skates on with regards to independence, I do don’t know what is.

  130. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’d suggest SNP loyalists should not look to claim the moral high-ground, until the SNP finds a way of respecting the rule-of-law, rather than undermining it through inaction and crap legislation.

  131. schrodingers cat says:


    im not convinced about the argument of campaigning increases support, the snp got 45% of constituency vote in 2011, once the polls dropped the option of devo max and started asking only yes/no, the polls waivered between 42-48% the result being 45%. within the accuracy of all polls.

    as to appealing to international opinion? in 2017, we got 38%, not really a platform for such appeals. as to international opinion, i can assure you that Nicola will have been told exactly what she can expect as an answer from the eu and elsewhere.

    it is quite clear she is now deliberately refusing to be drawn into questions on any other subject than covid 19. as many on here have pointed out that while she carries on in this manner, there is no reason why others in the sg cant. i also believe this is a deliberate tactic.

    its driving the unionist msm nuts, they cant lay a finger on her. 🙂

    but this situation cant/wont last forever, i think that this phoney war will be over by the end of august

  132. Dogbiscuit says:

    If the writer finds himself in Holyrood he will have to adopt a position on various policies.
    ISP is a good Idea but I suspect you’ll need to have views on other issues to perhaps enhance the attraction to a new party.Calm reasonable rational views on the irrationality of the currrnt debated or lack of in Holyrood.
    Bungle I don’t have Tourette’s I just think you’re a radge.

  133. schrodingers cat says:


    bojo’s world tour of scotland??

    bring it on, interesting to see which secluded hut in the forest he will visit

    bring it on 🙂

  134. Dan says:

    Read my 3.11pm post again. You state the one option left is 50%+ SNP vote on the constituency.
    I asked why restrict it to only the Constituency and SNP vote, and not include the pro-indy will expressed on the Regional List by people that just cannot bring themselves to vote SNP.
    Including both Constituency and Regional List aspects is the better and fuller democratic expression of the electorate’s will, and thus a more useful tool to have in the bank for whatever unfolds next.

  135. CameronB Brodie says:

    Want to unederstand just how badly the leadership stubbornness and blinkered approach to the law is screwing Scotland? Submitting to authoritarian English Torydum doesn’t just sacrifice Scotland’s legal identity, it harms the international fabric of law and order.

    UCLA Public Law & Legal Theory Series
    Human Rights and Rule of Law: What’s The Relationship

  136. schrodingers cat says:

    from the hootsman

    “Mr Johnson’s handling of the coronavirus pandemic has also cost him support, with his net approval rating on the crisis lagging 99% behind that of Nicola Sturgeon.

    This week he denied his personal standing was a threat to Union. But a Cabinet source told the Sunday Times: “Michael [Gove] is in panic mode about the Union and Boris is in irritated mode.”

  137. CameronB Brodie says:

    So I suggest true believers in indy should perhaps encourage the SNP’s leadership to start respecting international law rather than Westminster’s diktat.

    Rule of Law, Justice, Security and Human Rights–justice–security-and-human-rights.html

  138. Beaker says:

    @Republicofscotland says:
    19 July, 2020 at 3:52 pm

    Boris on tour?

    Will he be visiting Kilmacolm?

  139. kapelmeister says:

    What stirring leadership Sturgeon shows. Publicly apologising for the word National in Scottish National Party. A bonny fechter indeed!

    Then there’s the Wishart man who dreams of being Father of the House of Commons.

    Ah…that we in the independence movement get to walk beside such giants………..well, we would if the pair believed in turning up at indy walks.

  140. Republicofscotland says:

    Schrodingers Cat.

    In the 1970s, Australian PM Gough Whitlam, was popular as PM having been elected for a second term to office.

    As Australian PM he drafted the first Aboriginal land rights legislation, he added to this equal pay for women and free university education, and support for the arts, all of it became law.

    However unknowns to Whitlam, his own countries security services, held a file on him calling him dangerous, they were also spying on his government for the British and Americans as well.

    When Whitlam challenged this the Queens man in Australia Sir John Kerr, summoned the democratically elected PM to his office in Canberra, and sacked him on the spot, invoking some archaic Westminster reserved powers.

    I do hope Sturgeon, hasn’t put, or finds herself in this position’ if or when the time comes that she decides to push for independence.

  141. Republicofscotland says:

    “Boris on tour?

    Will he be visiting Kilmacolm?”

    Schrodingers Cat.

    I don’t really care which closed shop Johnson visits, its the media attention that it stirs up, against Scottish independence, followed by the lies, that some might buy into, though in fairness many folk are now savvy to the machinations of the unionist media.

  142. schrodingers cat says:


    nicola is already in this position, so was alex.

    unfortunately, westminster could shut down holyrood tomorrow.

    i think we are approaching the end game

    the best we can do is to win a 50%+ majority before it hits the fan

    regardless of what we do next, legal, appeal to the un eu etc. it will have more success if we have a 50%+ plebiscite in our hand

  143. Joe says:

    @Kestral 1:09pm

    I would simply love for it to be women to politically crush the SNP and their BS over the GRA and hate speech nonsense.

    Especially after years of nauseatingly appealing to the female vote with pseudo feminist BS and pandering.

    That would be a massive victory for Scottish women and a just outcome for a party of sick, lying, bought-off hypocrites.

    Mon’ the ladies.

  144. CameronB Brodie says:

    I think a constitutional backstop is the best Scotland can hope for before the end of the year, but there appears to be a lack of legal knowledge where it counts.

    PACIFIC JUDICIAL CONFERENCE, VANUATU 26-30 JULY 2005, The Hon John von Doussa QC, President,
    Australian Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission

  145. schrodingers cat says:


    great photo op for nicola, she could meet him for a photo op on the steps of bute house in full nbc ppe and offer him an elbow when he tries to shake her hand lol

  146. Seems to me if this was bad for our quest for emancipation why would British Nationalists like Kenny Farquharson be attacking it.

    The SNP need a `Night of the Long Knives`, a purge on all the misogynists and their enablers from MPs to backroom staff,

    or one day soon the misogynists and their enablers will be too strong and conduct their own purge,(which i think is happening already behind the scenes).

  147. Sensibledave says:


    I’m guessing that Ms Sturgeon is not confident of Winning an “open fight“ based upon your premise … and is therefore not going to risk losing a proxy “indyref2” at this time (which would then shelve the movement for some considerable time).

  148. schrodingers cat says:


    and if she does win with 50%+

    will that vote supersede the vote in 2014?

  149. Andy Ellis says:


    Actually, thinking about the Spectator article quoted above, if the yoons had any sense (OK, OK….I know it’s a hostage to fortune, but bear with me for the sake of the argument…..) they should actually call the bluff of the crypto-devolusionists within the SNP and actually make good on the powers promised in the Vow.

    Devolution may not kill independence stone dead, but since it is increasingly obvious that the current SNP have no realistic prospect of delivering a referendum in the next 5 (or more likely 10?) years. as a result the prospect of “real home rule” may actually prove attractive to lots of British nationalists in Scotland, convinced Scots unionists and “soft” Yes/Remain voters who are convinced we’ve lost the argument on EU membership so might as well make the best of it in the post Covid world.

    Hell, I’d probably vote for it if the only alternative is a fruitless decade of no-marks like Pete Wishart insisting that Boris is going to give in to our humongous mandate any day now.

  150. CameronB Brodie says:

    You are as welcome as any here, I suppose, but I just wish you’d sort your politics out. You’re position oposes the principle of universal human rights, which I suggest isn’t a good look. Toryboy.

    The rule of law and human rights: principles and definitions as elaborated at the Congresses and Conferences held under the auspices of the ICJ, 1955-1966

  151. CameronB Brodie says:


  152. Guybrush Threepwood says:

    Holding an election or a referendum is possible during a pandemic. South Korea held an election during the height of covid19.

    Social distancing and mask wearing is possible for both campaigning and voting.

    Polling stations have private booths and campaigning can be done online or even on the doorstep, while maintaining a safe distance.

    Covid19 does not mean life grinds to a halt for all eternity. We simply adjust until life returns to normal.

  153. twathater says:

    How dare people on here challenge the SNP’S god given right to govern Scotland , anyone challenging the mantra will be denigrated and abused by the SNP gatekeepers with wee snide YouTube videos or classed as MORONS by the righteous

    SC is punting furiously and endlessly HIS version of the SNP1 and indy party2 but still sneaks in his snide comments regarding the ISP just to keep the reader doubting ISP , he also goes on endlessly about calling an EARLY HR election but also admits he has NO POWER to call one and unfortunately for him the sainted one has implied that will not happen

    Maybe it’s just me but the endless posts requiring people to tell him EXACTLY how we will get out of this union is maybe just another deflection tactic , maybe as he is such an important member of the SNP should he not be discussing his plans with Nicola and convincing her of his great tactics then come on to the site and inform us what THEY (her and him) have decided we should do . Or are all these comments designed to deflect

  154. Andy Ellis says:

    @ Scot Finlayson

    I strongly suspect that ship sailed long since.

    Bloviating blow-hards like Peter Bell aside, nobody sane really believes that the SNP supertanker can be turned around now. there is not one scintilla of evidence of those within the party making the slightest difference to the current direction of travel.

    Neither branches or members appear to be able to effect change, or even get responses to complaints about the Woko Haram enemy within. The idea that an influx of new members could force change is even more outlandish.

    We have to face the fact that the concept of the SNP as the engine of the independence movement is probably a lost cause. The SNP is a reasonably competent devolutionary administration. It has to pay lip service to the ultimate aim of independence, but it has little real appetite (and even less realistic prospect) of actually bringing that aim about in the next decade absent some political earthquake not of its own making.

    As I’ve been saying for some time: gradualists gonna gradualise.

  155. Dan says:


    But if she did… England might require to deal with a material change in circumstance. Namely changing its underwear coz they shat their pants, as this lady in red reporter demonstrates with her olympic gold medal grade flustering. 😉

    @Guy Threepwood

    And closer to home Poland held two elections very recently during covid.

  156. msean says:

    I don’t care about all the other things,excepting the coronavirus of course,though they are not unimportant.

    Independence is what makes other things happen.What I mean by this is that anything the other parliament doesn’t like,it can change.It can change anything it wants,whenever it wants.It can strip any power it feels like,without explanation,if it feels like it. There is no constitution to say they can’t,the constitution is whatever they say it is.This makes any decision made by the Scottish Parliament subject to a whim of another countrys Parliament and therefore a bit pointless.

    They love it when we argue amongst ourselves.

    Once this is realised,independence will surely follow.
    So,focus on independence,anything else is window dressing.

  157. CameronB Brodie says:

    I hope folk appreciate the level of social harm Westminster is prepared to allow English Torydum to inflict on Scotland. Insisting Scotland leave the EU’s jurisdiction, against our democratic choice, in order to satisfy the cultural demands of right-wing, (white), English nationalism, does not suggest Scotland has much of a future in Brexitania. To allow this to proceed now, of all times, indicates Westminster is actually hostile to Scotland’s best interests.

    The world has changed, so perhaps it’s about time some changed their way of thinking?

    The impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on human rights and the rule of law – Our action

  158. twathater says:

    BTW David Hooks thank you for your posting it is informative and enlightening

  159. Alex says:

    I thought you weren’t in competition with the SNP? I thought this was all about removing unionists from the opposition benches? How far do we get if the SNP vote crumbles on the constituency vote? Its SNP voters you want the list vote from after all?

    I am an SNP member who happens to think a new leadership is now necessary for the SNP to move forward. It sounds like David hooks is a keen on bitching the SNP as he is promoting the ISP on the list. That’s fine I like to have a go myself but you need to win list votes man.

  160. schrodingers cat says:


    i think that boat has sailed, i doubt anyone believes this is an option, certainly the recent power grab is a example of the exact opposite


    Hi, i said happy birthday to nicola on your part.:)

  161. Me Bungo Pony says:

    I go out for the afternoon and come back to this

    Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.

  162. Flower of Scotland says:

    Great piece from David Hooks. As a 56 year activist for the SNP, I’m sick to death of the GRA and Brexit taking up the time of the SNP.

    It’s about time that the SNP do what they were voted in office to do, and that is regain Scotland,s Independence.

  163. schrodingers cat says:

    reaction to the couriers front page on how bojo is to visit scotland and save the union

    Nicola Sturgeon@NicolaSturgeon·4h
    Nice of Boris to send me a birthday pressie Party popper Face with tears of joy

    Janey Godley@JaneyGodley·3h
    Can’t wait

    Pippa Crerar @PippaCrerar·3h
    Boris Johnson planning to shore up the Union by visiting Scotland? I’m not convinced this will help.

    Well that should do it.

  164. CameronB Brodie says:

    Perhaps someone could arm the FM with this before BoJo blesses us all with his omnipotence. And possibly point out Scots are as entitled to access OUR “right to development”, as any other NATION.

    Parliaments, Rule of Law and Human Rights Research Project

  165. CameronB Brodie says:

    And possibly remind her that HMG has already accepted the principle that nations have a right to self-determination, and that internal law can not be used to bind them (see Kosovo).

    EU Human rights, democracy and rule of law: from concepts to practice
    Work Package No. 3 – Deliverable No. 2

  166. Me Bungo Pony says:

    To answer some points raised;

    @McDuff (1:06)

    “One week before the referendume Yes was in the lead on 52% hence the panic culminating in the Vow which was relentlessly blasted into living rooms resulting in the drop to 45%.
    Why wouldn’t you know that???”

    Well of course, I did know that, but it was only one outlying much publicised poll. Many other polls out at the same time put YES in the high 40s. And in the actual vote we only got 45%. Hypothetical vote shares don’t count.

    @Mungo Armstrong (2:49)

    “Me Bungo, all I read from you is what a terrible idea this is but no solution? The SNP are not interested in independence any time soon. I want independence, so why would I vote to strengthen a party that don’t offer what I want?”

    I have offered a solution. Maximise the SNP vote to actually ensure the maximum number of pro-indy MSPs, thus keeping the momentum of the last year going, instead of risking it all on an Indy version of UKIP. More than anything else, not law nor jiggery pokery on the List vote, it is sustained momentum that will carry us through to independence.

    @Stuart McTavish (3:13)

    “substituting the word “electorate” for “enemy” in your fourth point, the case for a new indy party makes itself.

    Unless you believe the “enemy” will sportingly stick their fingers in their ears while you inform the electorate of your plans, it would be rather counter productive. The ISP can talk all they want about plans they will be in no position to deliver on after the election, but the SNP, who will have to deliver, cannot afford that luxury.

    @republicofscotland (3:31)
    I wrote;
    “History and logistics point to a damp squib but if they take even 1-2% off the SNP vote …. it could be disastrous.”
    ros replied;
    “How do you work that one out, list votes given to independence parties are still votes for independence”.

    Because 1-2% of the List vote will not give ISP any seats in Holyrood but it will probably be just enough to lose the SNP a couple and gift them to unionists.

    All of this is so obvious if only people would actually think about it.

  167. CameronB Brodie says:

    Me Bungo Pony
    Please accept you need to respect the rule-of-law in order to support democracy. The FM appears to be blind to constitutional and international law, and to believe Westminster still has MORAL legal authority over Scotland. I’m afraid that is the perspective of a British nationalist, and is harmful to the international rule-of-law.

    Full text.

    IFMSA Policy Document Human Rights, Democracy & the Rule of Law

    Proposed by the Team of Officials
    Adopted at the IFMSA General Assembly August Meeting 2019, in Taipei, Taiwan.

    Policy Statement

    Humans, regardless of ethnicity, sex & gender, nationality, religion, occupation and a myriad of identifying characteristics, are entitled to be equal in their rights, freedom and dignity. This is both pivotal and universal to all human beings.

    Human Rights, Democracy and the Rule of Law are essential and indivisible concepts that are the vital components that have been devised thus far with an aim of achieving an order of equality and accountability.

    It takes an immense understanding of both the positive impacts and the shortcomings of democracy in addition to the relationship between all three components (HR, D & the RoL) in addition to a comprehension of the relationship between various political governance mechanisms and healthcare system design to be able to build the future generation of medical diplomats who are strong advocates of equitable and accessible healthcare.

  168. schrodingers cat says:

    Because 1-2% of the List vote will not give ISP any seats in Holyrood but it will probably be just enough to lose the SNP a couple and gift them to unionists.

    in 7/8 regions 850k snp list votes won the snp one list msp, maree tod

    one, uno, un, ein, etc

    its a risk to one snp list msp, yes, but nearer the time of the election, we could crowd fund polls to see what traction any party has,

    a small risk to the snp but potentially devastating to the unionists. i think it a risk worth taking

  169. Dan says:

    Me Bungo Pony says: at 6:56 pm

    I have offered a solution…

    Hmm, you may have, but our survey found 6 out of 8 regional cats could do better than drinking the Both Votes SNP Kool Aid.
    Plus many voters “woke up” to the SNP’s “woking up” when they changed the Party’s ingredients (like Barr’s did with IrnBru) and they were dissatisfied with the new flavour.

    Got any Um Bongo? 🙂

  170. Breastplate says:

    Bungo pony,
    Surely by your logic, the number of SNP MSPs in next year’s HE is irrelevant as you have already noted it is sustained support for independence that is important.
    If Boris would have to be compelled to “let” Scotland have a referendum under those circumstances then surely whoever those MSPs in our very own parliament would surely feel compelled to do so also?

  171. CameronB Brodie says:

    OK, suggesting the FM has the “perspective of a British nationalist” was perhaps not particularly accurate, but I think she feels in her heart that Scotland is somehow subordinate to the principle of Parliamentary sovereignty, and the cultural demands of (white) English Torydum. Why else defer to Westminster rather than international law?

    Discussing Human Rights, Rule of Law and the renewed social contract in the COVID-19 reality

  172. Sensibledave says:

    Dan 5.30

    … err, no Dan. I know that you want it to be otherwise and need it to be otherwise, but “England” will be fine whether we are in a Union with Scotland or not. Stop worrying about the “english” and start thinking about why so many Scots find the notion of Independence unattractive. Maybe it’s the thought of nut jobs like you holding the reins?

  173. CameronB Brodie says:

    Perhaps it has something to do with centuries of cultural indoctrination dave? Have you still not found a way to supporting the principles of equality in law and limited government?

  174. Breastplate says:

    Those Scots you speak of, have an unhealthy emotional attachment to the Union which is bad for them the same way someone smokes 40 cigarettes a day.
    They need help to break their addiction to an emotional crutch.

  175. Rick H Johnston says:

    I never thought RISE were a credible political force last time.
    I suspect they were a set-up job to try to siphon support from the SNP.
    A United new indy list party can work to increase YES MSPs but not if there are 3 or 4 such parties on the ballot.
    London wants the Scots divided against themselves. Beware. London’s hand in this.

  176. Rm says:

    The problem with university graduates who go into politics is they’ve been educated by the British establishment and go by their rules, good politicians will think outside the box and be able to think and bend the rules for themselves, another problem is the internet everybody knows what your thinking and planning you can’t hide anything so your opposition know exactly what your up to, you need more meetings in halls or meeting places where you can speak face to face with other like minded people without every person listening in, won’t be easy in this day and age.

  177. Dan says:

    Aye Sensibledave, I may be what you perceive as a nut job, but don’t shoot the messenger, unless of course you think that Jim Rogers fella kens fuck all n’ was talkin’ bollox.

  178. CameronB Brodie says:

    I hope it’s pretty obvious what I’m up to? 🙂

    Constitutionalism and the Rule of Law
    Bridging Idealism and Realism

  179. Sensibledave says:


    I don’t know, or care, who Jim Rogers is, or what he says. I am telling you, as an Englishman what I think. I really don’t mind whether Scotland becomes independent or not. As I said earlier, we will be fine either way. Why is that a problem for you?

  180. CameronB Brodie says:

    You appear content that Scotland is being denied access to the benefits of democracy though, in order to satisfy the cultural demands of right-wing, (white), populist, English nationalism. I’d suggest you’re dong it deliberately, as well, as your persistence indicates a strong degree of belief and intention.

    DJ Cummerbund – Can’t Get Enough Of Your Love, Battlefield

  181. Ottomanboi says:

    The English government is following in Scotland’s FM’s path by requiring the wearing of face coverings while shopping…muffle, fuffle wot did ya say?
    Sturgeon and Johnson should check their ‘science’.
    Plenty more net stuff in similar vein.
    Like to see the pair of them down the supermarket in one. Get the police, terrorist alert!

  182. The sensation of having your country run (into the ground) by a cabal of deranged-minority-agenda-waving wackjobs and utterly unintelligent workaday sneering ex-Labour Ancien Regime careerist dolts is utterly suffocating for any intelligent person, is all I can say.

  183. Terry callachan says:

    I am in FAVOUR of a LIST party
    But it will only work if there is only ONE LIST PARTY otherwise t splits the LIST party vote

    And it will only work if that LIST PARTY has just ONE POLICY ” Scottish independence ”
    Otherwise it will SPLIT THE INDY VOTE again

    So That EXCLUDES ISP who quickly voiced support for those who are anti GRE

    Seen a lot of mention of ISP on wos
    ISP announce they are against GRE
    I guess wos and ISP are pals now but
    ISP will split the LIST vote by taking a stance on GRE

    What will be ISP,s next policy
    How much more of a split will that cause ?

    By the way , when NS says she wants to park the Indy campaign for as long as it takes to cope with coronavirus

    Does that really mean five years ?
    Do you really think as wos appears to that it will be five years before Scottish government cope with coronaviris ?

    Are not the Scottish government coping with coronaviris already. .?
    Sure it’s not been eradicated but I think they are coping with it already

    I agree with wings that the britinats are in full flow against a LIST party of any sort
    Their comment and angst is coordinated
    There is a sprinkling of people who profess to be Indy supporters in amongst the chorus against a LIST party too

    It’s difficult to know who is lying sometimes
    Difficult to know who to trust
    Especially if you don’t read things and keep up to date with policy and proposals

    We now have all the big Indy bloggers fighting one another ( online so far )
    This is Westminsters work

    You cannot trust that anyone that has access to the tv or radio or a big internet voice
    is actually who they say they are , I mean of course in terms of what they support and who they work for

    Trust nobody
    Make your own judgement
    Read as much as you can and keep up to date

  184. Graham says:

    This is inspired and inspiring. It seeks to hand control over to the very folk who should have it: us. It reminds us that the SNP and Independence are not inter-changeable. If, however, the SNP could find the passion and clear-sightedness which this one individual has in spades.

  185. Terry callachan says:

    Ottomanboi…..have you ever thought to yourself
    Some people , neighbours ,friends , folk I get on the bus with or go to the same shops etc etc
    Might be frightened of catching covid19

    Do you not think it would be sensible, nice , to wear a mask just to please the people you mix with outside your home.

    Even if you think it’s all a hoax
    Even if you think you won’t catch it

    If other people think you might spread it to them don’t you think you should adhere to government guidance on wearing of a mask

    You know just to do the right thing ?
    Even though you don’t believe in it

    I don’t believe in god or religion but I show respect to those who do
    It’s the right thing to do

  186. CameronB Brodie says:

    That’s an interesting report but does not provide compelling evidence that face-masks do not presently provide a public health benefit, IMHO, or that the precautionary principle no longer applies. Do you still support right-wing philosophers who deny the significance of human biology, and reject the principle of universal human rights?

    Great Issues in Philosophy

  187. Bob Mack says:

    I have just finished reading the papers released by the Scot Gov’re Alex Salmond. Leslie Evans makes it very clear that she was told by Nicola to create a reviewed Civil Service code. She did not do it on her own.

    She states she completed the review in November 2017, and had her first complaints against Alex on Jan 2018.THe was informed in March. Remember that party HQ had decided to store complaints against Alex for future use?. This was them.

    Very clear Nicola in introducing and sanctioning the reviewed code for Ministers knew what she was doing. She wanted Alex gone, and ordered Evans to do the dirty work. Sickening.

  188. Me Bungo Pony says:

    “a small risk to the snp but potentially devastating to the unionists. i think it a risk worth taking”

    It’s a big risk if the SNPs constituency vote falls dramatically and some of the List vote drains into the various Pop-Ups. If supposedly pro-indy activists like those on this thread are “actively” (sic) telling voters the SNP are a pile of sh*te who don’t deserve their vote then it’s not a far fetched a scenario.

    The ISP (or any of the sundry others looking to stick the boot into the SNP while deluding themselves they’re bringing Indy closer) are not going to make up for the lost SNP MSPs and a unionist majority is a real danger. Nobody has any real idea how many List seats the SNP are going to need to keep Indy on the table. We shouldn’t be risking any.

    Indies need to be pulling together to ensure THE party of independence gets a comfortable majority to keep the momentum towards independence going. If the SNP start to fall back now, just as support for independence has reached record highs and they look like sweeping the constituencies, momentum will be lost and the malcontents can kiss goodbye to their dream of securing independence via their cunning plan.

  189. Casabian says:

    Can anybody tell me if Tommy Sheridan us involved in the INDY List Party.

    He has been unusually quite lately.

    We need a strong voice in the mix.

  190. CameronB Brodie says:

    Seen a lot of mention of ISP on wos
    ISP announce they are against GRE
    I guess wos and ISP are pals now but
    ISP will split the LIST vote by taking a stance on GRE

    Misogyny should have no place in Scotland’s emancipation. Just saying. The GRA amendments would legally institutionalise patriarchal misogyny.

  191. Davie Oga says:

    Virtually every country prohibits retroactive (ex post facto) law in their constitutions. Naturally, British legislators aren’t constrained by cumbersome documents like a written constitution. Parliamentary sovereignty allows those in power to do whatever they like.

    Maybe Nicolas wee retrospective changes
    are all part of her strategy to appeal to soft unionists, kind of saying, “look I’m a corrupt tinpot Brit like the rest of them”. Masterful stuff. One more mandate and we’ll be home and dry.

  192. schrodingers cat says:


    It’s a big risk if the SNPs constituency vote falls dramatically ………..

    if that happens we are goosed anyway

    but we are 8 months from the holyrood election. the snp are on 55%

    i dont think that when we hit jan 1st and food and medication supplies dry up due to no deal brexit that support for the union will shoot up.

    we can also crowd fund constituenmcy polls to monitor the situation

    we are coming down to the wire now MBP, there are now no risk free choices

  193. schrodingers cat says:


    the anti snp on this site is depressing.

    i think it is due to the lack of progress on indy

    that and a touch of cabin fever due to covid

  194. Me Bungo Pony says:

    @Bob Mack

    Why would Sturgeon “want Alex gone”? He already was “gone”. Of course she told Evans to draw up a new code. It was needing done. The enquiry hasn’t even started and already the malcontents are sharpening their knives. Guilty or (more likely) not, they won’t be happy till they’ve taken her scalp. It doesn’t matter it would damage the independence cause irreparably. So long as they get the thrill of taking down the great Satan.

    I’ve wanted Scottish independence all my life. I was beginning to think we were on the verge of achieving it. Not now. Not with the malcontents actively working against it 🙁

  195. CameronB Brodie says:

    I can support my opposition to the GRA amendments through science and law, can its’ supporters justify their position rationally and legally? The amendments have only advanced by ignoring the fabric of existing legal doctrine protecting the rights of biological women. That’s why the Scottish civil service had to be instructed not to follow best practice re. policy design.

    Trans/Form/Ação vol.42 no.1 Marília Jan./Mar. 2019 Epub Apr 08, 2019
    The understanding of the body and movement in Merleau-Ponty

    The author seeks an explanation for Merleau-Ponty’s expression “the body understands”, to which a real value is applied: the objects of the world have a signification that the body grasps by way of perception.

    The analysis focuses on Merleau-Ponty’s Phenomenology of perception and on notes from two of his courses, Le monde sensible et le monde de l’expression and La nature. In these works, there is a constant allusion to the I can as an underlying and grounding mode with regard to the I think. The French philosopher thus grants a central role to movement that demonstrates the interweaving of the body with the world.

    Merleau-Ponty; Body understanding; Perception; Movement; World

  196. Davie Oga says:

    If the ISP manage to get on mainstream media discussions, or debates in the run up to the election.

    Will their spokespeople be arrested for hate crime if they say something like “women don’t have penises” and the TRAs/OFI members of the SNP feel in danger or threatened by what they say and ring the polis?

    Serious question. Sturgeon’s government seems to have no problem using the law to silence critics and opponents.

    Will Stonewall guidance be used to determine what is permissible discourse in the run up to the election?

  197. Effijy says:

    The UK TV channels all cut away from Westminster as soon as an SNP
    Member starts to speak- especially the BBC.

    The Scottish Greens get excluded more often than not.

    ISP hasn’t a snowballs chance of any exposure within the UK

  198. Me Bungo Pony says:

    “ISP hasn’t a snowballs chance of any exposure within the UK”

    There’s always that I suppose.

  199. call me dave says:

    Wullie Rennie has just popped up here on radio 5 with concerns about the ‘alarming’ outbreaks of corona virus.

    However wants targeted local lock downs in Scotland and not a border quarantine which is not a good thing.

    Gets quizzed about about why not?… if SGov has the legal right to do so.

    Border protest not right…yada yada. Wants FM to welcome vistors from darn Sarf to Scotland…if they follow the rules.

    Then he was quickly shuffled off air and gone as the news headlines came on.

    First up: Large corona virus in Lanarkshire Scotland 🙁

  200. Robert Louis says:

    Not convinced by the second indy party idea – well not as currently configured, for many, many reason. However, I do agree that it is now urgent for the SNP to finally get on with things and either hold a referendum or use the next election as a proxy vote for indy and to end the union.

    Time is running out for Scotland. The SNP are too up their own behinds to even consider that maybe, just maybe events have changed so massively, that their strategy MUST change. Waiting until after the election in 2021, wil be too late.

    I find it hard to believe the way in which the SNP have become doped up on their own hubris. Just like british Labour in Scotland did, they take our votes for granted. ‘scottish Labour’, remember them? Nah, nobody else does either.

  201. Casabian says:

    Boris heading to Scotland to save the Union.

    I can only see that heading one way, and that is to increase support for Independence.

  202. ‘Bob Mack says:
    19 July, 2020 at 9:56 pm
    I have just finished reading the papers released by the Scot Gov’re Alex Salmond. Leslie Evans makes it very clear that she was told by Nicola to create a reviewed Civil Service code. She did not do it on her own.’

    Leslie Evans is an utterly untrustworthy piece of SG fifth columnist shit.

  203. CameronB Brodie says:

    There certainly appears to be cause for strong public concern over Scotland’s political predicament, so here’s some early Christian thought. No, I’m not a ninjas evangelist. Or am I? 🙂

    On the Free Choice of the Will, On Grace
    and Free Choice, and Other Writings

  204. Breastplate says:

    Bungo pony,
    It seems you’ve answered everyone who addressed you except me.

  205. Breeks says:

    robbo says:
    19 July, 2020 at 2:58 pm

    I bet you listened to that disturbed version more than one already! ha ha

    Well you lost your bet then…

  206. Ayeright says:

    There have been exactly two people today on here having a differing view from the majority of posters. You know who they are and yet there are accusations of this site being infested with “SNP gatekeepers” and other such shite.

    I reckon the two of them, Me Bungo Pony and schrodingers cat won all the arguments on this thread. The rest of you will really need to up your game to beat them, can’t say I’ve been impressed by your efforts so far lol

  207. CameronB Brodie says:

    Here’s some existential, phenomenological, psychology to reassure folk I’m not a religious evangelist.

    Qualitative Research in Psychology. 2013 Jul; 10(3): 318–339.
    Phenomenological Approaches in Psychology and Health Sciences

  208. schrodingers cat says:

    a welsh leader ?

  209. Beaker says:

    @Ayeright says:
    20 July, 2020 at 12:14 am
    “I reckon the two of them, Me Bungo Pony and schrodingers cat won all the arguments on this thread. The rest of you will really need to up your game to beat them, can’t say I’ve been impressed by your efforts so far lol”

    Ach, we’re only here for the banter 🙂

  210. Confused says:

    ayeright 12.14
    there’s quality and quantity – the cat has been trying to gaslight us all for a fortnight since his return
    – the SNP have done all they can
    – that really important thing we have been avoiding … major plans are afoot, oh yes indeedy
    – really bizarre and unpopular laws we have been pushing crazy hard – will not be passed after all
    – I too wish to be transported to a magical kingdom of wonder
    “ayeright”, indeed

    bungholio – whoever the fuck, has just been spamming, across multi forums
    – like he’s eaten too much sugar

    – ever since the indy list party looked to be getting off the ground, there has been furious activity across the forums. And all the new posters are in attack mode.

    I don’t like bashing the SNP, but at the very least one has to accuse them of “inertia” (-whatever else is there, who knows?) – the proposed indy list party is simply there to give them a push. The SNP still get my first vote, they are a beautiful machine, excellent administrators, the FM skilled – but like a fine house over-run by squatters.

    The peculiarites of DHONDT put there to be “rigged against us” can themselves be effectively exploited to our advantage, and without damaging the SNP; this could be the first time in history a “split” has happened WITHOUT catatrophic repercussions. So why not do it? Anyone who is against this is suspect in my book.

    – we can un-rig the rigging … which makes me think of a SONG

  211. twathater says:

    Ayeright the SNP pop up troll back on duty again tonight

  212. schrodingers cat says:

    Confused says:
    there’s quality and quantity – the cat has been trying to gaslight us all for a fortnight since his return

    glad you appreciate the quality and quantity of my input 🙂

  213. twathater says:

    It is the height of stupidity that there is only 1 party with indy as its raison d’etre sitting in the SP , other indy focused parties should have been formed years ago .

    It is absolute madness that WE have allowed the 3 unionist parties to effectively take over and run our parliament. As someone posted before , we even had a UKIP party standing in Scotland , it is our own fault we have become complacent and apathetic and maybe if we had had another indy driven party to vote for , the SNP might have felt more challenged to go for independence knowing that its heels were being nipped

    However we now have that OPPORTUNITY to right that wrong , as others have suggested LESS IS MORE , if we are to have ANY chance of success for this to work there has to be some kind of agreement to restrict the number of NEW parties to a maximum of 2 which would have a greater effect of NOT depleting the vote too much and would possibly constrain the radicals from going off piste , but that would have to be done with consent and agreement between the new parties leaders

  214. schrodingers cat says:


    the isp have already rejected the Alliance party, a group who were formed to do exactly what you propose, ie ensure the new indy list parties dont end up competing against one and other

  215. Nicola Sturgeon is shite? Vote SNP at constituency level and for any bum warmer the New ISP party puts up at Regional level?

    ISP Party Manifesto? Independence for Scotland. No, that’s it.
    £1200 a week plus exes to contribute to governing Scotland, with no policies, no political stance..well nothing.
    Put my name down for one of ISP’s list sinecures.

    What utter Tommy rot.

    If the Greens seriously join in with SNP and stand candidates ‘strategically’in Brit marginals, the Brit Nats will lose a significant number of seats, certainly at the FPTP constituency level.
    Most of us are not waiting until May 2021.

  216. Effijy says:

    The picture below captures England, it’s leadership, negotiating skills and it’s dream of Empire. lol

  217. Breeks says:

    Me Bungo Pony says:
    19 July, 2020 at 10:25 pm

    “Why would Sturgeon “want Alex gone”? He already was “gone”. Of course she told Evans to draw up a new code. It was needing done. The enquiry hasn’t even started and already the malcontents are sharpening their knives. Guilty or (more likely) not, they won’t be happy till they’ve taken her scalp. It doesn’t matter it would damage the independence cause irreparably. So long as they get the thrill of taking down the great Satan.”

    Strikes me any one of the Conspirators who tried to lynch Alex Salmond couldn’t have put it any better… especially once they’d used WhatsApp to get their gaslighting script right of course.

    How thoroughly awkward for you the man was proved innocent and it’s now the seedy conspiracy which will have to answer for it’s backstabbing skullduggery and smear campaign.

  218. Republicofscotland says:

    Sturgeon in the National newspaper today, pleading for your constituency and list votes, saying we need both for a majority. She then goes on to say;

    “History is littered with examples of political parties that start talking to each other, as opposed to the public, I don’t think that’s where the SNP is generally.”

    The GRA anyone? Self-ID? To name but a few, she’s certainly not listening to the public on those matters.

    As for giving her your list vote, giving it to the ISP or the indy alliances maximises the amount of independence minded MSPs at Holyrood, giving it to the SNP doesn’t.

    Sturgeon added.

    “I haven’thad the headroom to think about it,but now you are making me think about it, there does seem something odd about a political party that is sitting after 13 years in power, with record opinion poll ratings and the biggest ever support for independence, agonising over what’s gone wrong.”

    Take from that what you will, I take from it that the SNP are comfy governing Scots, with competent policies, but afraid of independence.

  219. Breeks says:

    Picked this up from the Friends of Wings Twitter…

    Michael Sheen making a powerful speech.

    The full speech is out there, but I don’t have time to watch right now…

  220. callmedave says:

    Scotland’s papers: Masks ‘fall apart’ and Johnson visits

    says the BBC website…but wait!

    Hark the Herald headline says:

    Thousands of decade-old masks sent to doctors recalled after disintegrating

    The last sentence in the article is all you need really!
    A Scottish Government spokeswoman said: “PPE which has been issued to NHS Boards must meet appropriate standards, and it will be withdrawn if it does not.
    “The shelf life of these masks was extended in March as they were tested as safe to use.
    “They have, more recently, failed re-testing and, in line with normal procedure, therefore, a UK-wide alert was issued 26 June. These masks will not now be used and will be safely disposed of.”

    Ah!… a UK wide alert… aye!

    Looks like a scorching day in Fife…off to the shops.

  221. Dan says:

    Ach, maybe the conservative types will come good for wider Scottish society in time and try something just a little bit more inspiring than tweaking the shades of magnolia…
    Now where did I put that second bottle of vodka…hic

    Wanders out to garden to check veg patch and fend off massive swarms of flying ants…

  222. One_Scot says:

    Given that it is probably now widely accepted by most, (even the SNP), that using your list vote to vote for a separate Independence party is the way to get maximum Independence MSP’s at Holyrood, why don’t the SNP form a second Independence party “SNP2” and then tell us to vote for SNP for the Constituency vote and SNP2 for the list vote?

    If nothing else it would have the mad dog Yoons foaming at the mouth. A win-win.

  223. One_Scot says:

    If the system was purposely designed to stop one party from having an overall majority, then why not use the system to gain a majority.

  224. One_Scot says:

    After all BoJo the Clown has a majority of what, 108, with what, 38% of the vote. Just saying.

  225. Michael Laing says:

    @callmedave: I’ve had two masks in a row issued by my place of work on which the elastic parted company with the mask either immediately when I put it on, or after one shift. I thought it was just because my fat heid was too big!

    @One_Scot: I suspect there are a few gaping holes in your plan; not least that the SNP would have to stand against themselves. The ISP idea will achieve the desired result but is actually practicable.

  226. One_Scot says:

    “the SNP would have to stand against themselves”

    How so, the SNP2 would only be for the list vote.

  227. Willie says:

    The Tory bastards are rattled, and rattled absolutely.

    With support for independence now well over fifty percent their brutal attempt to suppress a country and a Parliament is unravelling before their eyes.

    All their dirty tricks and their deep state manipulation isn’t working. Division, austerity, alone and at war with Europe, Scottish people want better. The toxic British state is an anathema to the Scottish electorate.

    And now with well over fifty percent wanting independence, and with a similar percentage indicating they’d vote SNP, the proposal to further maximise a super majority of independence seats through giving folks the opportunity to give their second vote to an Indy List party.

    Quite how Johnson will improve this making a visit to Scotland only the good Lord knows. In tried and tested form he will no doubt come smuggled into Scotland like a toxic turd to then be displayed to some secret selected audience with press propaganda releases to follow.

    Not for him to visit openly because if that were to be the case I am sure he would get a reception of tens of thousands or more who would make the country’s opinion of him crystal clear.

    So tell us Tory central office, where is the toxic turd coming to visit, can you ensure we know in advance so that we can visit to pay him the complement he deserves.

  228. Allium says:

    The NS interview is disingenuous in the extreme. She has it within her gift to destroy the rationale for these new parties instantly, by ditching the Woke social engineering schemes, and prioritising independence.

    They do seem slightly more rattled than usual. Shutting this down now is obviously the plan, they just don’t want to make any concessions while doing it.

  229. robbo says:

    To be fair the lassie only tried once. Murder Fraser but?

  230. Casabian says:

    Sky News on all morning and not once have they mentioned Scotland.

    Even the weather report told us of showers in “Northern Britain”

    New tactic.

  231. Joe says:

    @Ayeright, Schrodingers Cat, Me Bungo Pony

    Im prepared to take you as honest players. Just honest players with serious cognitive issues.

    So lets take a look at whats going on here –

    Many of the folk who regularly read and post on here have poured their guts into getting Scottish Independence to where it is. Year after year under a barrage of gas lighting propaganda from mainstream media and social media, donating to indy causes, spreading the word, holding the line as best they can in any argument, acting as standard bearers for their cause and country for others to rally around in their personal and online discourse. I believe for a significant number their main defining identity is that of a Scottish patriot fighting the long fight for power to reside back in the hands of the Scottish people.

    I started posting here a few years ago. My negative observations about the SNP are playing out pretty much as I said. They will continue to play out in the way I have predicted also. Because its not prediction when you see the blueprint functioning in other countries.

    Most of these people defended the SNP to the hilt against what I was saying. They had faith and showed solidarity.

    This SNP in the face of this support and selfless dedication have made no encouraging moves, always giving the most limp of support (if any) for Scottish indy supporters, apologising for the word ‘national’, showing solidarity with every stripe of L, G, B, T, Q and whatever else is out there but acting almost embaressed to give full voiced approval to the people who put them where they are. Then we have them backing the EU corner at the expense of Scottish Independence in the Brexit situation, missing repeated chances (and betraying multiple mandates) to strengthen the Scottish Independence cause. On top of that they are proposing legislation, which has been seen from other hyper-woke governments in the world, that would alienate vast amounts of Scots from them and trample on basic civil rights.

    The fact that these people are getting angry is not surprising. They are staring into the reality of having their faith and efforts betrayed.

    Yet here you are pretending it is they who have a problem. That somehow your own denial of observed, experienced reality constitutes some sort of argument?

    You 3 truly represent what the SNP have become – utterly out of touch and without a shred of respect for people with legitimate questions

    Ive got news for you – your shitty party of ‘progressive’ anti-nationalists has peaked. Whether it is by another indy party or people just drawing a line in the sand the SNP is not going any further than it is. Truth will out.

    Cheers to the awakened.

  232. Rab Dickson says:

    Is “malcontents” the word of the week?
    I never got the memo.

  233. CameronB Brodie says:

    Is that Joe trying to claim the moral high-ground? Now that’s cheeky as.

  234. Big Jock says:

    They want us all just to do what they want, not what we think is best for the movement.

    Nicola takes no interest in the rallies or the grass roots. Secretly I think she sees us as a bit of an embarrassment to her PR roadshow.

    My question to her is. What will you do with another mandate? and do you think 4 list seats represent good value for money i.e 40% of the list vote.

    I have said before. The SNP don’t want a collective movement. They want a dictatorship! They want to control the strategy. Well that’s not democratic, and it’s frankly downright authoritarian. All the things that Nicola was supposed to be against!

    I will certainly not be told how or who I should vote for. As for Nicola, she has been rumbled!

  235. CameronB Brodie says:

    The FM is either getting dreadful legal advice, or she does not support democracy. It is as stark as that.

  236. jfngw says:

    King Covid is coming to Scotland, make sure you keep your back doors locked, keep out the virus infestation. There will be no immunity until an independence vaccine is available.

  237. schrodingers cat says:

    feel free to vote for an indy list party on the list

    but not voting for the snp in your constituency vote will kill the independence movement.

  238. K1 says:

    This pretty much accurately sums up the utter failing of the Tory government and the ‘modellers’ lead up to covid pandemic.

    Once again having to look to abroad news to get unfiltered and correct assessments of what took place and how any kind of public enquiry needs to be pushed time and again so that these incompetent wankers are held to account:

    ‘ Held in high esteem for its scientific expertise, Europe, especially Britain, has long educated many of the best medical students from Asia, Africa and Latin America. On a visit to South Korea after a 2015 outbreak of the coronavirus MERS, Dame Sally Davies, then England’s chief medical officer, was revered as an expert. Upon her return home, she assured colleagues that such an outbreak could not happen in Britain’s public health system.

    Now South Korea, with a death toll below 300, is a paragon of success against the pandemic. Many epidemiologists there are dumbfounded at the mess made by their mentors.’

  239. CameronB Brodie says:

    I hope folk are remembering that Joe has not offered any constructive opinion and is hostile towards post-modern critical theory, a.k.a. scientific method of investigating culture and society. This is not a reasonable position. Indeed, Joe in hostile to multi-multicultural society, supports Brexit, and has even parroted Nazi propaganda. Such is the practice of right-wing populism, which supports inequality and authoritarian racism.

  240. Big Jock says:

    We have to vote SNP on the 1st Vote , that’s a given. However the second vote should be used strategically. We should have been doing this all along. The Tories have benefited from the second vote for decades. Despite being a poor second to the SNP.

    As for the anger from some SNP loyalists. This is because they have been let down, but don’t want to face it. It’s like having your belief in God or heaven shaken. You so desperately want to believe in it, that any evidence to the contrary is immediately denied. At the moment all the evidence points to the SNP doing nothing at all for the next 3 years. Some people just can’t handle the depressing reality of it.

    Cognotive Dissonence!

  241. schrodingers cat says:


    great idea, wish i’d thought of that

    schrodingers cat says:
    8 December, 2015 at 7:11 pm
    yesindyref2 says:
    @schrodingers cat
    That’s interesting. I would think the SSP will be watching very carefully, to see if they should just stand on their own in most places. I think they should.

    then the socialist left go from 2 to 3 parties standing
    (although rise was meant to pull the greens into the fold..deluded or what?)

    thing is, the ssp is heavily invested in rise, grogan may have just split the party. colin fox is very quiet tonight.
    allan bisset tweeted a fairly snotty comment to “other yessers” today

    HEY, cracked it, wings should launch a political party and stand 3 candidates in every region, we need 24 volunteers…..and the party will be called….


    schrodingers cat says:8 December, 2015 at 7:11 pm
    yesindyref2 says:
    @schrodingers cat
    That’s interesting. I would think the SSP will be watching very carefully, to see if they should just stand on their own in most places. I think they should.

    then the socialist left go from 2 to 3 parties standing
    (although rise was meant to pull the greens into the fold..deluded or what?)

    thing is, the ssp is heavily invested in rise, grogan may have just split the party. colin fox is very quiet tonight.
    allan bisset tweeted a fairly snotty comment to “other yessers” today

    HEY, cracked it, wings should launch a political party and stand 3 candidates in every region, we need 24 volunteers…..and the party will be called….



  242. schrodingers cat says:

    Big Jock says:
    20 July, 2020 at 12:22 pm
    We have to vote SNP on the 1st Vote , that’s a given.

    thank goodness.

    as for the snp supporters Cognotive Dissonence

    I couldnt really give a toss about the isp or the snp.
    i remain first and fore most a supporter of independence.

    id quite happily vote for cardboard cut outs if it brought us nearer to independence

    ps. soz about the double post

  243. Robert Louis says:

    I see that Boris, the clown English prime minister is utterly dismayed that the Scottish government have handled COVID 19, much better than he has. In a cunning ploy to upset Scotland’s success, he has decided to come up to Scotland, with his murderous Tory sociopathic cabal, in order to infect all of us.

    Alexander Boris De Pfeffle Johnson, the yank from London, who nobody in Scotland actually likes. An absolute shambles of a man, overweight, pig-ignorant, racist, anti-Scotland and thick as ten lavvy seats. What an utter waste of oxygen he really is.

  244. Socrates MacSporran says:

    I have used this wee vignette before on here, but, I see no harm in using it again: When you are up to your ass in alligators, it is difficult to remember, you are supposed to be draining the swamp.

    The SNP government is up to its ass in alligators:

    The Tories – the biggest alligators, who, with their 80-seat majority at Westminster can shut-down Holyrood any time they like.

    The other two London-led Unionist parties, “Scottish” Labour and “Scottish” Liberals.

    The Scottish Greens – who seek to be all things to all men in an effort to look electable.

    The Tories can do real damage, the other two Unionist parties will wade in to help them chew-up the carcass. The Greens will support the SNP, when it suits them, but, drive a hard bargain for their support.

    The SNP’s problem now is, how to nullify the efforts of these alligators, while draining the British political swamp and getting us our own, well-drained and fertile land.

    Then there are the ot hers, maybe no alligators, but certainly poisonous snakes – the likes of the “wokeists” trying to divert their efforts and attentions with demands for policies such as the GRA.

    Will somebody high up in the |SNP please get back to the basic Plan A:

    Let’s drain the swamp by pushing flat-out for, and achieving INDEPENDENCE.

  245. Willie says:


    I think it is too late for Nicola Sturgeon to shut down an Indy List party. NS does not own the Indy movement. At best all she can ever be is a custodian for it.

    To seek to maximise the independence presence in Parliament is no bad thing. No nationalist could ever be against that. To be against it would be to be against independence itself.

    The electorate is not stupid. They are perfectly capable of voting SNP one, and Indy Party two and Nicola must not stand against maximising the independence presence in Parliament. If she does, her legacy will be that of conspiring to destroy the independence movement.

    NS cannot of course overtly endorse an Indy List party. But when 953,000 votes gets you four seats, even NS can se the absolute sense of tactically voting one SNP and two Indy List.

  246. schrodingers cat says:


    well said

  247. Bob Mack says:


    Spot on Willie.

  248. CameronB Brodie says:

    It is only logical to do everything to max-out the indy vote in Holyrood, but folk also need to respect the inter-dependency of democracy, the rule-of-law, and human rights.

    Without re-course to international human rights law, Scottish culture and democracy has little chance of surviving Brexit for particularly long. So here’s a look at what a modern European democracy looks like. Please pay particular attention to section 4.1 Gender equality. TA.

    Government Communication
    Human rights, democracy and the principles of
    the rule of law in Swedish foreign policy

  249. Ottomanboi says:

    More on the great face cover up theme.
    The only positive thing to be said for masks is that they can make some people look cool, provided you’re under 25. Beyond that things get creepier and creepier.
    Seriously…if you must wear one, wash face and hands before opening the packet. Once in place do not touch mask again until discarding. Never reuse.
    If you have restricted breathing problems or have difficulty breathing while wearing a mask, it’s not for you.

  250. Joe says:

    @CameronB Brodie

    After having some experience in other countries where certain agendas were in place I decided that when I return to my own country I wont simply stay silent while idiots shout down voices who disagree with the accepted politics of the day. Which is exactly how it goes now.

    I am prepared to make many enemies and lose all friends if necessary. Im not going to see my country be turned into a hyper-progressive shithole where everything worthwhile is sneered at and all forms of mental illness or perversion are elevated. Where every other culture, regardless of how barbaric and backwards, is lauded and encouraged while ours is denigrated and maligned.

    Im just not able to sit back and let the corrupt and the ideologically possessed control the narrative and open the door to the kind of laws that undermine everything the West gained over hundreds of years in the false name of equity and minority rights

    But this is wasted key strokes. You may now drivel something onto your keyboard that ties me with something you don’t like, insert a link to some critical theory nonsense that disguises its fundamental flaws with ridiculous amounts of jargon and keep on keeping on.

  251. Republicofscotland says:

    So according to a new Westminster report the Russians, yes them again interfered in the 2014 Scottish independence referendum, even though no evidence is forthcoming.

    Meanwhile Alyn Smith, who gave his melodramatic speech to the EU to leave a light on for his job, has claimed a real expert, whatever that is, as opposed to a fake expert, told him 6% to 8% of of Scottish Twitter is phony, especially those that belt out #dissolvetheunion or #usethemandate.

    I’m just gobsmacked at Smyth on this one, isn’t that what we and the SNP want, or rather us anyway, to use the mandate and dissolve the union.

    The SNP, should not be blaming the Russians or the Chinese for their own misgivings, its all very Johnsonesque if you ask me.

  252. CameronB Brodie says:

    ” Where every other culture, regardless of how barbaric and backwards, is lauded and encouraged while ours is denigrated and maligned.”

    Nah Joe, IMHO you’re just a right-wing racist, and your views are not in the slightest balanced or reasonable.

    Two concepts of freedom

  253. Casabian says:

    It just makes sense to vote SNP 1 and list Party 2.

    It makes no sense not to do it.

  254. One_Scot says:

    Granted I think it would be difficult for Nicola to start up a separate Independence party called “SNP2”, but if someone like Alex Salmond or Joanna Cherry did it, and they explained to the Scottish public the benefit of this party standing for the List vote only, along with the fact that the voting system was specifically designed by Westminster to prevent a SNP majority, then I think a lot of genuine SNP and Independence supporters would get behind it.

    Not to mention the sheer panic it would send to Westminster, BoJo and his hapless unionist List MSPs.

  255. Republicofscotland says:

    Senior Scottish Labour branch office figures have issued an appeal to members not to quit the branch office after their Knight of the Realm and millionaire, leader Sir Keir Starmer, reinforced his opposition to a second Scottish independence referendum.

    There’s a list of hasbeens in the National newspaper, including Jeremy Corbyn pleading for members not to desert the insignificant Labour branch office in Scotland, because of their ennobled millionaire leader is content to ignore our democratic right to vote on our future via a independence referendum.

    I say to the disillusioned Labour voters in Scotland, even if you don’t want Scottish independence, you must surely see our right to vote on it in a independence referendum.

  256. schrodingers cat says:


    I seem to remember cameron explicitly asking putin to interfere with indyref1 on the side of the union???

  257. defo says:

    Rupert Lockhart, Slab ‘leader’s on aunties WatO.
    He’s relying on mass unemployment to stymie Independence.

    Did you upset Spameron Joe?

  258. liz says:

    One Scot the EC will not allow two connected parties to stand separately.
    This has already been discussed when the Co-op party, affiliated with Labour, were not allowed to stand for the list.

  259. One_Scot says:

    They would not be connected.

  260. CameronB Brodie says:

    Is that you bumming up to Joe? I didn’t think you were that big an idiot. There you go though, you live and learn. Some do anyway.

    Adelaide Law Review, Vol. 26, No. 1, pp. 55-72, 2005
    Existentialism and Natural Law

  261. defo says:

    Passive aggressive overtones, with a dollop of homophobia!
    There must be a paper on that!
    Get googling Spammy.

  262. CameronB Brodie says:

    That’s your interpretation anyway. Have you not got anything worthwhile to contribute, or are you here simply to stroke your ego in public?


  263. schrodingers cat says:

    pretty much.

    “This is not now and has never been about the determination of the SNP to achieve independence, it’s about the determination of the people of Scotland. That is what has been lacking until very recently. You can’t achieve independence based solely on the minority who happen to have supported it for years. You need majority support. You need majority resolution. You need majority determination. It’s only now that the people of Scotland are coming to the determination that Scotland needs to forge its own path. That’s why the Tories are panicking. They know that the people of Scotland are now in a place where they are no longer willing to be passive observers of their own history.”

  264. Robert graham says:

    Cat @ 2:42
    You also need a political party that has the bottle and the conviction that we are all in this together, it’s only recently the MPs & MSPs have been shamed into joining any marches , where is the determination to at least show a bit of resistance to Westminster , what exactly have our dedicated representatives been doing for the last 6 Years ,
    Yes 6 years, or
    72 Months, or
    2190 days Just Exactly How Long Does it take ? .
    Most of us will be Dead before the present management get off their Arses
    The recent interest shown is only because their cosy bloody existence is threatened by the List vote being challenged, that’s unionist & SNP by the way, both seen comfortable with each other

  265. Bob Mack says:


    Wee Ginger Dug has his finger on the pulse right enough, but it so happens it’s on the finger of a dead person.

    I understand why the Scottish people refused Indy last time. They were too scared, and too beguiled by love from paid celebrities who professed their love of everything Scottish.

    Add to that the Vow promising power beyond measure.

    When Alex Salmond signed the Edinburgh agreement he knew he was behind in the polls, but he had the courage to believe and to fight for that belief. He only narrowly came up short.

    Now we have polls in our favour, allied to being out of the EU against our wishes, and get there is still no sign of the Government of Scotland being willing to take on that fight.

    Boris cave in to political demand? Not a hope in hell.

    If anything Covid and the forthcoming financial implications will have incentivised him to hang onto Scotland even firmer than before.

    The power of the people means nothing to Westminster unless it is in a ballot box and recognised by them and them alone.

    That is our true reality at this time

  266. schrodingers cat says:


    i believe in tactical voting on the list.

    there can be no doubt of my commitment to this movement.

    i get it folk are impatient with the slow progress towards independence by the snp.

    i repeat though, i really couldnt care about the isp or the snp, seriously, i really couldnt. my focus has always been independence.

    to that end, i continue to promote the tactic of voting for an indy list party, whichever manages to catch the public mood and shows the best chance of winning over the snp list voters to their cause.

    i merely point out that continually dishing the snp and nicola will not help this cause. you will not convince folk to vote for the indy list party of your choice by bad mouthing and denegrating nicola sturgeon at every opportunity

    why am i so sure?

    ask rise, the greens and solidarity

    you are not unique or original

  267. schrodingers cat says:

    @ bob mack
    Boris cave in to political demand? Not a hope in hell.


    you may well be correct, i hae ma doots aboot this an’ aw’

    however, until we win a popular vote of 50%+, we have no choice but to continue in this direction.
    i believe we are very close

    if, as you say, we will still be snubbed,

    the game changes

  268. CameronB Brodie says:

    This isn’t rocket surgery folks, it’s not even brain science. Westminster no longer has MORAL legal authority over Scotland, as Brexit can’t be justified through constitutional jurisprudence. So it is only the Scottish governments’ approach to the law that is imprisoning Scotland, and condemning us to legal and political expunction.

    The Rule of Law in the Universal Declaration of
    Human Rights

  269. schrodingers cat says:

    @Robert graham

    stick to praising the isp, calling snp members and voters closet unionists will not help the isp get elected

    i havent heard the folk in the isp (@datartanspartan) dishing the snp, what makes you think you speak for them or are helping their cause?

  270. Republicofscotland says:

    “I seem to remember cameron explicitly asking putin to interfere with indyref1 on the side of the union???”

    Schrodingers Cat.

    I think Cameron hocked his unionist wares all around Europe however many foreign ambassadors told him to take a hike. He also shoved a note into Obamas hand at a press conference, at which a startled Obama, then proceeded to implore Scots not leave the union. Only a week earlier Obama gave press conference in the Republic of Ireland, saying what a great successful independent country it had become.

    Anyway its Westminster whose interfering with Scottish independence, not Russia or China, by not agreeing with us to hold a referendum, in which its our sovereign and democratic right to do so.

  271. Bob Mack says:


    I appreciate that you care only about Independence. I think apart from a few obvious agents on this site, we all do.

    The problem I see is that we are all giving out mixed messages ‘re wanting action right now, or waiting patiently for the right time or hoping people power will swing the issue.

    All different messages from influential bloggers or purveyors on Independence. All have their factions and followers, but importantly ,they cannot all be right.

    I have come to believe we are being outflanked by our opponent and yet we remain static, unable to alter our plan of battle. The opponent knows our plan because we Have told them what it is ,and we will not deviate from it (Sec 30).

    Consequently, they plan for that approach, whilst we do what?

  272. Republicofscotland says:

    AUOB, are currently holding a demo outside Holyrood, the demo is being held in light of Westminster’s power grab, via its internal market plan, that threatens the very existence of our parliament, and a meaningful government.

    AUOB, are following strict Covid-19 guidelines during the demo.

    Scotland’s MSP’s can’t afford to lose this one.

  273. schrodingers cat says:

    Anyway its Westminster whose interfering with Scottish independence, not Russia or China, by not agreeing with us to hold a referendum, in which its our sovereign and democratic right to do so.
    true, but it seems hypocritical for westminster to now blame russia for subversively interfering in indyref1 when they blatantly asked them to

  274. Breastplate says:

    I’ve read the piece you linked to and left a comment for Paul’s thoughts on it. It’s pretty much the same thing that Bungo pony body swerved last night.

    Now I agree that sustained majority support for independence can only be a good thing, I’m pretty sure we can all here agree on that, however I think Paul and others (not you) seem to think it only has currency when tied to support of the SNP.

    For avoidance of doubt, I would vote SNP 1 and List party 2 ( I would like to think list parties will work together).

    I also believe that the SNP think there is no downside to reneging on their promises, surely your stock would fall and not rise after breaking manifesto commitments?

  275. Breastplate says:

    Sorry, I should have added my comment for reference.

    I’ve asked this elsewhere without response so I’d be pleased if you could address my thoughts.
    If as you say Westminster would be compelled to “grant” an independence referendum at these sustained levels of support for independence then surely our very own Holyrood would also be compelled to grant an independence referendum also, regardless of how many SNP MSPs are there.

    If you don’t agree, could you tell me why?

  276. Republicofscotland says:

    true, but it seems hypocritical for westminster to now blame russia for subversively interfering in indyref1 when they blatantly asked them to”

    Yes, that’s absolutely correct, and we all know the hypocrisy of Boris Johnson, and the 313 year old union for that matter, has no bounds.

  277. mike cassidy says:

    The Trans Issue

    Gender recognition in Ireland

    From the report referenced in the article. Page 55

    The most important lesson from the Irish experience is arguably that trans advocates can possibly be much more strategic by trying to pass legislation “under the radar” by latching trans rights legislation onto more popular legal reforms (e.g. marriage equality), rather taking more combative, public facing, approaches.

    The Keira Bell case

  278. Walter Jones says:

    Wings Over Scotland has to stay strong.

    The British government will hound you.

    The Scottish government will hound you.

    The British media will hound you.

    The Scottish media will hound you.

    The true Indy supporter will have your back, and that is the most important thing.

    Stay strong Rev, we are with you.

  279. Bob Mack says:

    People power?

    I watched over a million people March through London demanding a second referendum on Brexit.

    The Westminster government remained unmoved.

    Over a million. What do they make of one hundred thousand marching for an Indy ref? Not much I think.

  280. CameronB Brodie says:

    mike cassidy
    You can’t beat a good bit of cross-cultural comparative legal analysis. That takes me back. 🙂

  281. CameronB Brodie says:

    Talking of which. 🙂

    Btw, given British constitutionalism is made up ad hoc, which law would this, so called, internal UK market operate under? Does Scots law have any future in Brexitania, as Scotland’s equal constitutional status with England doesn’t appear to be worth anything these days? According to Westminster anyway.

    The Journal of Legal Pluralism and Unofficial Law
    Volume 49, 2017 – Issue 1
    The conundrum of cross-cultural understanding in the practice of law

  282. Peter Barjonas says:

    As long as we keep using the phrase “up here” when referring to Scotland’s geographical position then be assured that our cringe is alive and well!

  283. So the UK is complaining about China’s record on human rights what about the Chagos Islanders and refusing Scotland an s30 and saying nothing about the the murder and theft of land from the Palastine people by Israel talk about cheek???

  284. schrodingers cat says:

    Bob Mack says:
    The opponent knows our plan because we Have told them what it is ,and we will not deviate from it (Sec 30).

    Consequently, they plan for that approach, whilst we do what?

    this is true, i can see no reason to pursue this plan a when all of the indications are that bojo will just refuse it.

    the only reason i can think of is that if the snp were to switch to an indy plebiscite in the holyrood election, i wouldnt announce it until the tories announce their, no to indyref2 manifesto

    thats why i posted the spectator article in full yesterday, it gives an idea of their tactical thinking

    of course, any switch from indyref2 to an indy plebiscite will depend entirely on the polls nearer the time. another reason why they wouldnt announce a change this far out from the election.

    keep yer cards close etc

  285. jfngw says:

    Westminster has been planning this removal of devolution since the day after the referendum. They hoped it had destroyed the will of the Scots but the subsequent elections have made them put their full plan into operation, Brexit was the ultimate enabler for them.

    In the eighteen century they placed thd military around Scotland to control it, now they plan to place their civil service around the country. Scots will have no say in how England is ran but now Scotland will be controlled by their placemen in the new Scotland colonial office in Edinburgh, they plan to run Scotland as they did all their other colonies. The locals will be given the bauble of voting for a parliament with no powers but just to enable the rules defined by London and be landed with the blame when failures ensue.

    We don’t have the luxury of failure when the choice of independence happens, I don’t care what route it takes, if we don’t take it the outcome for Scotland is dire, Westminster has always been a parliament of retribution.

  286. Republicofscotland says:

    “I watched over a million people March through London demanding a second referendum on Brexit.

    The Westminster government remained unmoved.

    Over a million. What do they make of one hundred thousand marching for an Indy ref? Not much I think.”

    Bob Mack.

    We’ll have to take independence, for Westminster will not give it willingly. Now here’s the thing, if we’re an equal nation, not a region in this union as we’ve been told on countless occasions, former PM David Cameron, even asked Scots not leave but lead the UK. Then what’s stopping us from leaving it does Westminster really have a legal hold over us, or is it just a psychological block on our behalf.

    We are a sovereign nation and have been for centuries before this I might add forced union, being in any union doesn’t negate that no matter what Westminster, a foreign country’s parliament might say.

    If Johnson keeps saying no to agreeing on another independence referendum, and I see nothing in the future that will change his mind, then what? And all the time we sit back and wait on him coming around to our point of view, which will be the twelfth of never, he and his parliament will finds ways of negating and undermining our own parliament.

    In my opinion the long game isn’t an option

  287. Breastplate says:

    Oh dear, wee ginger dug has put my perfectly polite comment in moderation.
    Ah well.
    SC, I would be very surprised if the British secret services ( who see the SNP as a threat to the UK) don’t have a recording of every single conversation that the leadership has had.
    We won’t be able to keep secrets they want to know.

  288. boris says:

    As Relevant Today as it was in 1701 When the Good People of Fife Wrote to the Rulers of Scotland- Is Your Ancestor listed? – Two of mine are!!!!
    Posted bycaltonjockAugust 30, 2017Posted inUncategorized

    James Douglas, 2nd Duke of Queensberry

    Petition from the people of Fife to the Scottish Parliament 9 January 1701

    To his Grace his majesties High Commissioner (James Douglas, 2nd Duke of Queensberry) and the right honourable Earls and representatives of parliament, we submit this humble address and petition of the people of Fife.

    That now after so long and expensive wars, attended with unheard scarcity and many other calamities, instead of enjoying the blessings of a happy peace, incentives for trade and manufacturing, providing employment for the poor and easing the burdens of state support.

    We still find not only great discouragements to trade, increased numbers of poor and a lack of money sufficient to pay a standing army. But above all what we are deeply aware of is the violation of the sovereignty, freedom, and independence of Scotland which our predecessors so nobly defended with their blood.

    And the encroachments by English and Spanish forces upon which seem to us to be the cause of the great losses which the African and Indian companies have sustained in their Caledonian colony settled in Darien.

    Losses contrary to their human rights and the law of nations, and which we perceive to be of national concern affecting the hearts of every true-hearted Scot.

  289. CameronB Brodie says:

    This is what happens if you take a critical approach to legal analysis, which I think might she light on Scotland’s predicament.

    Critical Cultural Law and Economics, the Culture of
    Deindividualization, the Paradox of Blackness

  290. Republicofscotland says:

    “So the UK is complaining about China’s record on human rights what about the Chagos Islanders and refusing Scotland an s30 and saying nothing about the the murder and theft of land from the Palastine people by Israel talk about cheek???”

    Blair Paterson.

    Yes indeed, and lets not forget the British government selling arms to the Saudis and training their pilots in England, who go on to bomb and kill civilians in Yemen. Over 700 civilians have already been killed in Yemen, and the UN’s World Food Programmes states that millions more are suffering from starvation.

    Of the 21 countries that the RAF trains personnel at in the UK, the majority were from oppressive military regimes such as Kuwait and and Jordan

  291. Fireproofjim says:

    There is no doubt whatsoever that Westminster will not grant the right to another referendum under any circumstances. The SNP know this.
    A plan B is absolutely necessary and I am sure that the SNP know this too and so they must use the Holyrood election to gain the necessary power.
    The SNP are absolutely crucial to the success of winning Independence and anyone who denies this is foolish. The 54% poll rating shows that success is within our grasp and, like it or not, that 54% is the approval of the Scottish public for NS and the party.
    A list party with a simple Independence policy would get my vote but not unless it is the ONLY list party with that aim. Otherwise, if there are several Independence supporting parties, they really risk diluting the vote and letting the Unionists gain more list seats.

  292. callmedave says:

    WM GOV have a new reporting site for the corona virus totals
    for each country and the UK totals:
    But not daily deaths in the colonies.

    N. Ireland……….00…….Total……556:

    Where are the missing 5…I don’t know either. 🙁

    Looks like a scorcher I said before I went out earlier…
    Wrong! It was raining 5 minutes later.

    I do need a weather vane to know which way the wind blows.

  293. schrodingers cat says:


    i get your point, but we need to see this issue from both ends of the telescope

    1. we will never convince 100% of snp voters to switch to backing a new indy list party on the list. the fact that stus poll showed 50% were, is pretty gob smacking. i think that with the right momentum and backing, we might achieve 75%.

    2. the leaders in the snp cant and wont support anything other than snp1/2. indeed, i was a tad shocked when kenny macaskill did support the idea of an indy list party. there are ramifications and potential grief from the unionists msm, electoral commission etc if this were to become official snp policy. the best indication, i hope, would be for the snp to drop the “vote snp 1 and 2” for a simple “vote snp” motto for the he2021

    3. not all bloggers will back the indy list party idea either. however, their main arguments are fairly thread bare, eg, the arithmetic wont work. except if salmond backs the idea. this is a very weak argument. arithmetic is arithmetic, numbers are not opinion. if the arithmetic doesnt work, then it wont work for salmond either. kelly is basically saying 2+2=5, but only for large values of 2

    also, the argument that indy list parties wont work cos folk simply wont vote for them could be rubbished using opinion polls that show they will. (crowd fund anyone?)

    in 2016, i found to my dismay that kelly deliberately used the whole of scotland to undermine the idea of tactical voting on the list, and he is doing the same today, eg it would risk the snp losing 4 list msps. this is disingenious since all new indy list parties have categorically said they wont stand candidates in the south region. in 2016,I eventually switched to talking uniquely about fife and mid scot, my region. it made it more difficult to argue against. in 7/8 regions, 850k snp votes elected one snp list msp. this is a much more powerful stat to argue against.

    3. lastly, the most powerful argument against tactical voting on the list in 2016 was. the yes voters simply wont back, rise, greens and solidarity. they dont trust them. They were right. rise/ssp/solid are now a distant memory and i believe the greens are about to join them.this was why i asked you to stop bad mouthing the snp, by all means, promote the indy list party of your choice but remember it isnt necessary to claim “nicola ate my hamster” its counter productive. simply appealing to the electoral arithmetic and showing that it will rid us of annie wells should be more than enough reason to vote tactically on the list for any yesser.

  294. schrodingers cat says:

    Breastplate says:
    SC, I would be very surprised if the British secret services ( who see the SNP as a threat to the UK) don’t have a recording of every single conversation that the leadership has had.
    We won’t be able to keep secrets they want to know.

    probably not, but if the snp backed an indy list party in private but not in public, apart from admitting to spying, what could they do?

  295. Breastplate says:

    I agree with everything you’ve said.

  296. Gary45% says:

    Scottish Election 2021.
    SNP 1
    Indy list Party 2.
    If you want to get rid of Murdo, Wells, and the rest of the brass-necked seat warmers.

    I expect yoons to challenge this, cause they know this is the answer to clearing out their parasites.

  297. Andy says:

    So how does this new pro Indy party persuade Westminster to either go for another referendum or to respect our wishes to forego any vote at all and simply declare our Independence?
    What new leverage is this new Pro Indy party going to bring to the table?

  298. schrodingers cat says:

    Gary45% says:
    I expect yoons to challenge this, cause they know this is the answer to clearing out their parasites.
    possibly, but i cant see how it breaks any rules. the worst the unionists can do is to withdraw all candidates from the constituencies and stand a single unionist candidate. that would need the agreement from lab/tory/libs in london.

    as far as gg standing on the list in south region, if he gets elected it will be at the expense of another unionist list msp from this region, eg if gg stands candidates in the other 7 regions, how will this affect the snp list msp numbers? they only have one. the unionists hoover up the vast majority of the rest.

    this is the basis of the electoral arithmetic we use to argue for an indy list party in the 1st place

  299. schrodingers cat says:

    in truth, nothing. its a nice to have, but getting rid of a whole heap unionists seat warmers is a reason in itself.

    the main prize is getting 50%+ on both votes for indy.

    beyond that, i genuinely dont know what will happen.

    i think we will cross that bridge when we get there.

  300. CameronB Brodie says:

    Is Scotland that politically indifferent that we are prepared to allow the likes of Murdo and Wells to continue shaping our law and culture? Or Westminster, for that matter? Is our cultural indoctrination and lack of self-respect that strong?

    Full text.

    Cultural Studies Volume 27, 2013 – Issue 1: The Force of Meaning: Cultural Studies of Law

    Law has a dual capacity in the field of culture: it enables the formation of subjects and of cultural practices, and it constrains those very formations. The tensions created by that paradox are instrumental in constituting the political field.

    Cultural Studies of Law move beyond textual analysis by attending to the networks of social practices through which law is constitutive of culture just as culture and cultural analyses shape, resist and interrogate legal regulation, exception and norms. Law is a cultural product, but its operations, venues and discourses are unique, as is its coercive power.

    We take it as given that the law must act to efface both its own rhetoricity and its interestedness in order to function as law, and in this way stands in awkward relation to culture, and to history. A Cultural Studies of Law is anodyne, therefore, in seeking not just to make the law accountable but to show that law might be taken as the preeminent object of culture – preeminent precisely because of its claims to neutrality and objectivity….

  301. Bob Mack says:

    Looks as though Oxford have cracked the vaccine riddle.

    Expect immunisation late this year.

  302. Beaker says:

    @schrodingers cat says:
    20 July, 2020 at 5:00 pm
    “probably not, but if the snp backed an indy list party in private but not in public, apart from admitting to spying, what could they do?”

    Secrets are almost impossible to keep in politics. You wouldn’t need spies. Someone would leak it or a journalist would find out.

  303. schrodingers cat says:

    true, but they could just deny it

    anyway, the unionists dont need to be that sleekit, they could just lie, they have form in this respect 🙂

    the msm is losing this battle. any they know it

  304. twathater says:

    @ SC 3.13am SC do you have a link for ISP refusing to work with the Alliance party or do you know the reason why they refused to work with them , as I posted it is imperative for there to be a max of 2 parties to enable the vote to have the best effect , anything else will be shambolic , is it maybe to do with the ISP opposing the GRA and HCB , and Alliance not really bothered , if that is the reason I would encourage ISP to hold FIRM as they have the support of many females

  305. callmedave says:

    Swinney won’t rule out penalties against NHS England’s contact tracing group in Motherwell

  306. callmedave says:

    UK suppliers sent hazardous face masks to Scottish doctors

  307. Shug says:

    I hear a lot of firms in the tourist industry are getting a lot of Facebook and twitter comments about English people not being welcome and English people asking if they should come.
    There seems to be a trend developing making firms recoil against the Scottish government.
    It looks and sounds like 77 brigade trying to sway the tourist Industry against the sg

  308. schrodingers cat says:

    Andrew Learmonth @andrewlearmonth·Jul 16
    End of the Alliance? Greens, SSP and ISP have all said no to coming under Dave Thompson’s umbrella. Could mean at least five pro-indy parties standing on list next year.

    there ya go

    of course, i couldnt give a stuff which party gains traction with the voters

    but whichever does, i will support.

    btw, the alliance party only exists to stop the numerous indy list party fighting for the same votes. it enforces no limits on what policies the individual candidates want to pursue

  309. CameronB Brodie says:

    Perhaps the Alliance Party should not be prepared to support misogyny, then we could have had all five under the one banner.

  310. CameronB Brodie says:

    Sorry, apart from the Greens, obviously, as they are 100% in denial of nature and Natural Law.

  311. schrodingers cat says:

    the alliance party exists only to bring the various indy list parties together, that would include the isp. are you saying the isp is misoginistic

    i think ill change my handle to schrodingers domestos cat 🙂

  312. CameronB Brodie says:

    schrodingers cat
    We already know you couldn’t care less about anything other than your own narrow opinion.

  313. Republicofscotland says:

    “DOWNING Street has said they will not approve a second independence referendum anytime soon.

    The reiteration of Boris Johnson’s staunch opposition to indyref2 comes ahead of an expected flying visit north of the the Border.

    Reports over the weekend suggested the Tory leadership were in “panic mode” after a series of polls put Yes ahead. ”

    Right then, there you have it straight from the horses mouth no second independence referendum. So there goes Sturgeon’s gold standard referendum, so the balls back in her court what will she do now, will she meekly kowtow yet again? Or grow a backbone and actually become proactive in seeking independence? It remains to be seen what she does or doesn’t do. Doing nothing should not be an option.

    Like I said and many, many other commentors in here have said, Sturgeons Plan A is as dead as the Dodo. If we want independence we’ll need to take it some other way.

  314. CameronB Brodie says:

    The proposed GRA amendments are not something that is separate from Scotland’s constitutional future. They seek to undo the legal settlement of “different but equal”, and destroy the potential for the law to recognise the needs of biological women. This is exactly what British nationalism seeks to do to Scotland. Both are examples of paternalistic and misogynist legal practice.

    Women’s rights are human rights.

    Georgetown Journal of International Law, Vol. 36, 2005, UCLA School of Law Research Paper No. 05-31
    Human Rights and Rule of Law: What’s the Relationship?

  315. Breastplate says:

    I’ve had a conversation with wee ginger dug on his website about that very thing.
    It was good of him to have a mini debate about it though.

  316. CameronB Brodie says:

    sorry….misogynistic legal practice.

    Magna Carta and Human Rights

    What is the relationship between the Magna Carta and Human Rights?

  317. Sensibledave says:

    CBB 6.39

    … so let me get this straight. So the potential GRA amendments in Scotland, which are a matter for the Scottish law makers …. are and example of “paternal and misogynistic” practices “British Nationalists”????

    You have several screws loose me ol’ China.

  318. Sensibledave says:

    Shug 6.12

    On behalf of the most loyal and magnificent 77th, whilst we would like to claim credit (and probably will), in all honesty, it was sites like Wings with an endless line of loonies proposing border restrictions to prevent English travellers entering Scotland, that may have given the impression that they were not welcome.

  319. CameronB Brodie says:

    No dave, you are either being deliberately obtuse or your being deliberately disingenuous. Brexit is the ultimate in chauvinistic “rational paternalism”, best suited to the age of imperialism. It articulates paternalistic and misogynistic legal authority that does not respect Scotland as an equal to England. You do understand patriarchy hurts the poor and destroys the planet, Toryboy?

  320. Sensibledave says:

    CBB 7..01

    .. ok got it. You are saying that your original post was garbage. Thanks for the clarification.

  321. Sensibledave says:

    CBB 7.01

    You wrote “ Brexit is the ultimate in chauvinistic “rational paternalism”, best suited to the age of imperialism.”

    … and there’s me thinking it was a free and fair referendum result of the U.K. electorate … but what do I know.

    You write such rubbish Cammy. Do you actually believe any of that guff?

  322. CameronB Brodie says:

    Brexit articulates the collective narcissism of a culture that has not come to terms with the psychic damage, and structural injustice, caused by its’ colonial history. A legacy that Westminster appears determined to maintain.

    Social constructionism and the theory, practice and research of psychotherapy: A phenomenological psychology manifesto

  323. Sensibledave says:


    You pronounced “ Brexit articulates the collective narcissism of a culture that has not come to terms with the psychic damage, and structural injustice, caused by its’ colonial history.”

    …. or, it could just mean that voters didn’t want the UK to be in the EU anymore? Just like over 150 other countries on the planet.

  324. schrodingers cat says:


    i read the thread on wgd, very interesting

    to sum up, wgd is pointing to the fact that we have now, in the past few months, a consistent 50%+ support for indy.

    your point appears to be that even with this support in the polls, and even if we gain this in an election, could bojo still say no?

    good that he was willing to engage you btl

  325. Joe says:

    Totally OT sorry but some here will find this interesting and it is a continuing subject:


    Or do they?

    Africans as test subjects.

    ‘It is unclear how much the Wellness Pass initiative is motivated by public health concerns as opposed to free market considerations. Indeed, the GAVI alliance, largely funded by the Bill and Melinda Gates and Rockefeller Foundations, as well as allied governments and the vaccine industry, is principally concerned with improving “the health of markets for vaccines and other immunization products,” rather than the health of individuals, according to its own website.’

    ‘What is perhaps most alarming about this new “Wellness Pass” initiative, is that it links these “dual use” digital solutions to cashless payment solutions that could soon become mandated as anything over than touchless, cashless, methods of payment have been treated as potential modes for contagion by GAVI-aligned groups like the World Health Organization, among others, since the pandemic was first declared earlier this year.’

    Reading the article you can see that without Covid there is no clear catalyst for this on non criminals. It all hinges on Covid.

  326. Sensibledave says:


    You wrote “You do understand patriarchy hurts the poor and destroys the planet?”

    To be honest CBB … you are going to have to define what you mean by “patriarchy”. Please expand.

  327. CameronB Brodie says:

    I think this one might convince dave he’s lost the argument. That is if he believes Scotland and England are separate nations with unique constitutional identities, and he respects constitutional law rather than British constitutional convention and dogma. Oh, and the principle of universal human rights. Alternatively, he could continue to ignore Scotland’s legal individuality, in order to support his English/British ego.

    Full text.

    “Let’s take back control”: Brexit and the Debate on Sovereignty

    During the Brexit referendum campaign, much emphasis was placed by “Leave” supporters on the lost parliamentary sovereignty which none could restore unless the United Kingdom exited the European Union. Parliamentary sovereignty is an elusive concept which must be carefully addressed in order to debunk a number of false allegations.

    Ultimately, the unexpected results of the referendum raise more constitutional issues than they solve, and most of them revolve yet again around the concept of sovereignty. Who is empowered to take major decisions in the UK? Who has the capacities, if not the legitimacy, to trigger Article 50 to commence the withdrawal negotiations?

    In the end, amongst all available options for the UK to maintain links with the EU, how much, if any, of its sovereignty will really be restored?

  328. Republicofscotland says:

    Breastplate@ 6.43pm.

    I wish some one would tell me what the plan is, are we to wait for the 60% mark to be reached and isn’t Johnson even more likely to say no the higher the support for indy gets.

    Are we to believe that Sturgeons plan is to wear Johnson down, with our sloth like actions on the indy front, or are we waiting for Johnson, to have a crisis of conscience, and give into us. I just cannot for the life of me figure out Sturgeons cunning plan, if there is one that is.

    Johnson’s said no, so what’s next, Christ I hope its not Blackford bawling out on this weeks PMQs that Scotland won’t stand for it. I don’t think I could take anymore of that, now if he and the SNP MPs got up and walked for good, that would certainly be a eye opener.

    Our parliament is under attack, via the internal market plot, Johnson says no to indyref 2, what’s our next move?

  329. CameronB Brodie says:

    I hope folk appreciate Joe is simply trying to distract folk from politics they can effect.

    Populism and the Rule of Law

  330. Richard says:

    @ republicofScotland.

    “ Right then, there you have it straight from the horses mouth no second independence referendum. So there goes Sturgeon’s gold standard referendum, so the balls back in her court what will she do now, will she meekly kowtow yet again? Or grow a backbone and actually become proactive in seeking independence? It remains to be seen what she does or doesn’t do. Doing nothing should not be an option.”

    -is it not best to wait on the rejection of a new sec30 request 1st ,that is assuming a new one has to be made?

    And what is your suggestion to be more pro-active, take it to the courts or a UDI ?
    Personally I think if has to be taken through the courts or UDI with a plebiscite after it won’t go down well with the public.

  331. Sensibledave says:

    CBB 7.35

    Two things . Firstly, I voted Remain. Secondly, why do you think a piece of propaganda written by an ardent remainer (I.e an opinion piece) would convince a Leaver (if I was one) of anything? It is just someone’s ( a losers) opinion.

    Get your head out of your a**e and make an argument, in the sort of language that everyone else is using on the site.

    I don’t supposed you have even noticed that virtually no one agrees with, or responds to, any of your comments?

  332. Walter Jones says:

    Brexit approval and non Brexit approval is now definitely an England Scotland divide.

    The Scots are a more welcoming internationalist country, whereas England likes to be More isolated and generally a less inviting Country.

    My opinion only of course.

  333. shug says:


    You mean border restrictions like around Leicester or around Australia

    In a Loony Uni’s eyes the only region or country not allowed to manage people movement in an emergency is Scotland and only because their masters say no.

    So much for the Union now the border checks are being created for N Ireland!!

    If a Unionists is not hating the Irish, the catholics, the polish the russians, the chinese or the EU he is nothing.

    A very sad reflection of the union indeed.

    What I don’t get is, you live in England so what is it to you what Scotland does? Why do you care? Dumping a parasitic nation like Scotland sounds like a plan to me.

  334. CameronB Brodie says:

    How you voted is of no concern to me, nor am I interested in how you choose to frame reality. Every electoral ward in Scotland voted to remain, yet Westminster is enabling abusive, right-wing, populist, majoritarian, English nationalism to dictate Scotland’s future.

    Now, do you support the principle of universal human rights and the rule-of-law? Or do you favour British nationalism and ad hoc constitutional reinterpretation?

  335. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi schrodingers cat.

    The latest Pro-Indy party is talking about winning 24 regional seats. Assuming they didn’t stand in the two regions where the SNP have their four regional MSPs, that leaves six regions for 24 seats or 4 per region.
    What percentage shift of SNP to Pro-Indy would be needed to win 4 seats? What would have happened at 100% shift in Central Scotland in 2016?

    Pro-Indy – 4
    Labour – 2
    Tories – 1

    What about 90%?

    Pro-Indy – 4
    Labour – 2
    Tories – 1


    Pro-Indy – 4
    Labour – 2
    Tories – 1


    Pro-Indy – 3
    Labour – 3
    Tories – 1

    So, around 80% of vote transfer from SNP to Pro-Indy is required to gain 4 MSPs – in Central Scotland. I did that region because I had just finished number crunching the 25% and 40% figures that I did for NE Scotland a few weeks ago.

    4 regional would be the maximum possible, even up to 100% of vote transfer.

    I’ve now done the 25%/40% figures for NE Scotland, Mid Scotland and Fife and Central Scotland. I hope to do the other three regions, where the the SNP have no regional MSPs, in the next few days.

    Onnyhoo, you can find the figures for the first three regions, plus the full version of this info (showing the ‘wurky-out’), if you click on the link below.

  336. Sensibledave says:


    MPs representing Scottish constituencies vote in the HOC to make the laws that govern me. Westminster is my only Parliament. Whether it’s labour politicians spouting socialism in Manchester, Greenies talking rubbish in Brighton or SNP politicians seeking to overturn U.K. referendum results, … then , surely, I have the right to challenge the ideology?

    I am sure that many Wingers enjoy a break from the “me too” echo chamber nature of some of the threads?

  337. Sensibledave says:


    You wrote “ Now, do you support the principle of universal human rights and the rule-of-law?

    If you mean … do I believe that if folk vote in referendum then the result of that referendum should be enacted by the government … then yes.

  338. CameronB Brodie says:

    Your over simplification of Brexit lacks concern for constitutional jurisprudence, and I think is intended to hide your dishonest narrative. Britain is not one nation and internal law can’t be used to strip Scots of rights protected by international law. Not in a constitutional democracy anyway.

    International Journal of Constitutional Law, Volume 11, Issue 3, July 2013, Pages 585–610
    Political constitutionalism versus political constitutional theory: Law, power, and politics

  339. Me Bungo Pony says:

    As I have now said many times, the arithmetic of the cunning plan is flawless. IF just ONE List only Indy Pop-Up manages to convince about 900,000 SNP voters (not political activists, but ordinary punters going about their daily lives without ever reading threads like this) to give them their votes they will get about 30 MSPs. Brilliant. That won’t happen.

    There are apparently now three Pop-Ups vying for those votes plus the Greens and already taking pot shots at each other. If each, despite the poor optics of the infighting, still manage to convince ALL SNP voters to back them, that’s only about 225,000 each. Considerably less than the Tories and even Labour. Seats will therefore be far harder to come by.

    However, in 2016, despite a massive pamphleting campaign, plenty of activists on the ground, a large internet presence, the backing of a prestigious pro-indy site and generous coverage in “The National” …. RISE only got 11,000 votes.

    I’m sure the cunning plan parties will have just as high profile a campaign (which is to say, not that high) and, being kind, let’s say they are 10x more successful. That’s only 110,000 votes to split between them. It sounds good but it is highly unlikely to be enough to get a seat in Holyrood. It is enough to lose the SNP (and independence) any chance of a List seat though. Especially if the Pop-Ups siphon off Green votes too.

    But I can almost hear the spluttering of “but we’ll do much better than that”. Unlikely, but for arguments sake, let’s say they do a massive 20x better than RISE and exclude the Greens. That’s still only 220,000 votes split three ways. It is unlikely to generate even one List seat but it would guarantee NO List seats for the SNP.

    But let’s be even kinder. Let’s say all the Pop-Ups coalesce into one (again, unlikely). It’s still well below the Tories and Labour. Barely enough to get a small smattering of MSPs, mostly at the expense of the SNP and Greens. Hardly worth the free mud-slinging opportunities it would gift unionists that could easily diminish the SNPs constituency contingent. All to the jubilation of our unionist brethren.

    No. It’s not going to work as well as the malcontents would wish (and “wish” is an apt description). But, let’s hope it won’t be too damaging.

    What worries me more about this thread is the absolute hatred being thrown at THE party of independence. Fair enough, you expect people to disagree over policy and stuff. But here, it goes well beyond that. It is visceral. Even the Tories get an easier time than the ONLY party that can actually deliver independence. Do these people really think that destroying the SNP will hasten independence? Do they really not realise that would kill any hope of independence for decades if not forever?

    They are like disgruntled sailors busy punching a hole in the side of their ship because they don’t think the Captain is going fast enough. Of course, when the ship sinks and they find themselves at the bottom of the ocean with no hope of getting to their desired destination, it won’t be their fault. Nothing will ever be their fault. It will be the Captain’s fault for having driven them to madness.

  340. Breastplate says:

    SC and RoS,
    My view, as I said on WGD, is that the SNP have underestimated Westminster intransigence and I believe that Boris will not only keep saying no but will give us the finger while doing it.

    There is no reason good enough to be asking Westminster, in the first place, if it’s ok with them to find out the Will of the Scottish People.
    We’re asking if we can enact some democracy ffs.

    That we are being told that we are not allowed to take this measurement is completely undemocratic, it’s the opposite of what both parliaments are supposed to represent.
    There hasn’t been a proper debate about this aspect of the completely anti democratic pantomime.

  341. Sensibledave says:

    CBB 8.27

    Ok. Now I understand.

    So when the Scottish electorate voted to remain part of the Union, and for Scottish voters to have the same rights as English voters . You thought that meant that Scottish voters could then unilaterally veto any U.K. vote. Got it. Good night.

  342. Breastplate says:

    Bungo Pony,
    It’s immaterial how many seats the SNP get because their plan of asking Boris for permission is to put it politely batshit crazy.

  343. CameronB Brodie says:

    Do you think such armature gas-lighting will have any purchase? You appear to be excusing Westrminster’s turn towards populist constitutionalism, which indicates a bold step towards political authoritarianism.

    Remember, the British constitution obtains its’ legal FORCE from the Treaty of Union and Moral Law (natural law), which Brexit ignores along with socioeconomic law. Brexit is justified entirely through positivist accounts of legal authority, so is incompatible with modern liberal constitutionalism.

    Global Constitutionalism (2012), 1:2, 229– 260 © Cambridge University Press, 2012
    Constitutionalism in an old key: Legality and
    constituent power

    I argue that legal and constitutional theory should avoid the idea of constituent power. It is unhelpful in seeking to understand the authority of law and the place of written constitutions in such an understanding. In particular, it results in a deep ambivalence about whether authority is located within or without the legal order.

    That ambivalence also manifests itself within positivist legal theory, which explains the affinity between theories of constituent power and legal positivist accounts of authority. Legal theory should then focus on the question of law’s authority as one entirely internal to legal order, thus making the question of constituent power superfluous.

    constitutionalism; rule of law; constituent power; legality;

  344. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Me Bungo Pony at 8:28 pm.

    You typed,
    As I have now said many times, the arithmetic of the cunning plan is flawless. IF just ONE List only Indy Pop-Up manages to convince about 900,000 SNP voters (not political activists, but ordinary punters going about their daily lives without ever reading threads like this) to give them their votes they will get about 30 MSPs. Brilliant. That won’t happen.

    You are correct and incorrect.

    From the number crunching I did for Central Scotland, there is no way a SINGLE ‘Pro-Indy’ party would get anything like 30 regional MSPs.

  345. Big Jock says:

    We need one unified list indi party. If it ends up being 3 parties splitting the list vote. I will revert to the SNP and hold my nose.

  346. Bob Mack says:

    @Bungle Pony,

    Nobody,but nobody wants to kill Independence.

    Indeed I would go as far as to say we are actually performing CPR on it, to keep it alive by devising ways to maximise true Indy representation.

  347. Dan says:

    @Me Bungo Pony

    You are still failing to acknowledge that times have changed since 2016 which has been pointed out to you previously.
    Your “solution” is telling folk to just continue to cast both their votes for SNP which in 6 out of 8 regions accomplished nothing in terms of electing SNP MSPs from the Regional List in those areas.
    You are telling people not to split their 1st and 2nd votes, but by doing so you are effectively telling them to waste their 2nd vote in 6 out of 8 Regions when that 2nd vote could be of more beneficial use to the YES movement.

    There is the potential to reduce the number of unionist MSPs in Holyrood.
    If we move to end the Union in the next 5 year Parliament term surely you want as many Pro-Indy MSPs in our Parliament to add their input and scrutinse that process.

    Aye, all these new Pro-Indy Parties and individuals looking to stand in the Regional Lists absolutely need to get their shit together pronto.
    Last I heard none had contacted any of the YES Groups in my area to run ideas about identifying good potential local candidates and campaign strategies specific to each region. That’s frankly pathetic not to utlise the huge local knowledge and activist base which could have a significant effect on determining the success of this concept.
    I’ll put this situation down to them all jockeying for position but it does need resolved because multiple Parties and Individuals standing is destined to fail, but not at a significant cost to the SNP.
    There’d probably be even less risk to the SNP’s constituency vote share if they weren’t trying to implement batshit policies the electorate don’t want, but you seem less concerned about that for some reason when it is arguably of more risk because many of their activists are unable to continue to campaign for the party because they will not put themselves in positions of having to defend woowoo shiz on the doorsteps.

    I’m ok with you, others, and myself discussing all our views openly on here so more people get a chance to add their input and we all can better understand subject, which will hopefully lead to a plan that has the best chance of success.

  348. schrodingers cat says:


    Me Bungo Pony says:
    As I have now said many times, the arithmetic of the cunning plan is flawless. IF just ONE List only Indy Pop-Up manages to convince about 900,000 SNP voters (not political activists, but ordinary punters going about their daily lives without ever reading threads like this) to give them their votes they will get about 30 MSPs. Brilliant. That won’t happen.

    no it wont, but if yessers can coaless around one party, stu’s poll this weekend shows that 50% will vote tactically on the list. with celebrity endorsment and momentum across all social media platforms i believe we could capture 75% of snp list votes.

    not enough to win 30 indy list msps, granted, but enough to make the unionist’s eyes water

  349. schrodingers cat says:

    I detect a much more nuanced tone about indy list votes on wings now.

    the anti snp meme seems to have tailed off.

    good, we are much more likely to convince MBP of the value of tactical voting, and if not MBP, the others like him who are lurking

  350. schrodingers cat says:

    Breastplate says:
    It’s immaterial how many seats the SNP get because their plan of asking Boris for permission is to put it politely batshit crazy.

    it isnt breastplate, there is a good reason i do not broach this point you make, i use terms like, “cross that bridge when we come to it” etc.

    I try to remain focused on the issue in hand. ie getting 50%+ support in a plebiscite.

    beyond that doesnt bear thinking about.

  351. callmedave says:

    Wee auntie wie a kilt news:

    People who travel to Scotland from Spain will no longer have to go into quarantine for 14 days on arrival.

    The change, coming in later this week, was sanctioned after a review of infection rates in mainland Spain and the Spanish islands.

    The move opens the path for Scots to go on holiday in Spain, and for Spaniards to travel to Scotland.

    Justice Secretary Humza Yousaf said further countries could yet be added to the list of “air bridge” destinations.

  352. defo says:

    “It will be the Captain’s fault for having driven them to madness.”


  353. shug says:

    Sensibledave says:

    The body implementing the restrictions in Leicester is not Westminster it is the local health board and council.

    If the Scottish Borders council and health board or the Cumbrian council or health board decide to close the border for health reasons so be it. It is not a Westminster decision.

    The reality is the Union is over the day N Ireland is excluded from the UK and that is what Westminster is doing. I saw at the weekend almost 50% of English conservatives agree the Union is over. It is over because the people of England and Scotland no longer have a common objective. I don’t think Westminster even considers the interest of the English people. There is simply so much Russian and Chinese money supporting the Conservatives party their objective is to accumulate as much personal finance as possible and transfer it to off shore accounts.

    It is a funny old world

  354. Liz g says:

    Twathater @ 6.01
    I went rootling aboot to see if the ISP really did reject the alliance people…..on Twitter by the you don’t have to 🙂 …you’re welcome!!
    As far as I can tell the Alliance hasn’t become registered yet and that means there’s not really anything to join with.

    So I wouldn’t class it as an outright rejection but rather not being willing to be having “hypothetical” talks!
    Which seems reasonable to me….the ISP shouldn’t have to wait for the others to get their arse in gear…should they really be expected to just tread water till the other’s bring an actual registration to the table?
    The ISP are also now under the auspices of the electoral commission and should not ( given the time and treasure already invested ..not forgetting the stakes here) be under any obligation to risk their right to be on that List ballot,but rather it’s the other’s who must do the grunt work and bring an offer to the table that sits within the framework of the electoral commission…otherwise it would risk the whole effort….to them Twathater I’d simply say
    ” whits yer pleasure ”
    And just to add to ye my friend..
    It might work,it might not!But if you’ve ever trusted me on anything these past years….trust me now my friend…these guy’s are genuine Indy,nae conspiracy,nae career,what ye see is what ye get…. so far we don’t have the Rev we don’t have Alex Salmond,and even if we did,or do,a bunch of genuine people from the Yes movement is always worthy of our support and encouragement….they’ve stepped up and I’ll not be a part of pulling them down!!

  355. Dogbiscuit says:

    Bungle the SNP are not interested in Independence so I like many others I suspect are not interested in voting for them.

  356. Sensibledave says:


    You completely misunderstand me. I really don’t care whether Scotland is in, or out, of the Union.

    You suggested that it was the 77th that we’re responsible for suggesting English were not welcome in Scotland. I pointed out that these threads included many calls for English to be stopped at the border.

    Now you deflect off in another direction.

  357. Joe says:

    schrodingers cat says:
    20 July, 2020 at 9:35 pm
    I detect a much more nuanced tone about indy list votes on wings now.

    the anti snp meme seems to have tailed off.

    I think you might find its that a lot of people cant be arsed being bullshitted about the intentions of the SNP from someone who has somehow declared themselves their official spokesperson on WOS and is peddling a delusion every waking hour of the day.

    We are to believe that the SNP will get enough votes and stand up and say ‘right, thats it. Independence. Noo’.

    Despite all the evidence pointing to them being pretty much a wet, compliant submissive rag of a party that has allowed the Brexit deadline to pass without a challenge? Somehow they WILL grow a pair – we just have to GIVE THEM ONE MORE CHANCE. They will then stare down the British state, who will use all means overt and covert to destroy them personally and as a party before they allow Scots to walk off with the bulk of UK energy reserves?

    How do you know they wont just do FUCK ALL like they have been doing but use this mass of support to push illiberal and insane hate speech and GRA laws on us?

    That’s right. You dont.

  358. Liz g says:

    Dan @ 9.27
    Your name has been mentioned ( can’t think for the life of me by who 🙂 )
    It’s the contact details that are the bugger….absent a party machine and dependent on “computer illiterate” people like me….Dan fae Wings disnay much help although didn’t draw as much eye rolls as Capella fae the Highlands 🙂 …
    Honestly Dan ..if you’ve a thing tae contribute go make yerself known on their web site…. 🙂

  359. Liz g says:

    Me @ 10.58
    Efter….look out for Barba Papa at the next rally..they stopped listening 🙂

  360. Walter Jones says:

    Sky News telling us that the Russians interfered with Indy ref 1 in favour of the Yes vote.

    I thought David Cameron was sweet talking the Russians in favour of the Union.

    To sum up, never believe a word you hear on english tv.

  361. shug says:

    Sensibledave says:
    20 July, 2020 at 10:34 pm

    You completely misunderstand me. I really don’t care whether Scotland is in, or out, of the Union.

    So why are you on here spouting unionist nonsense???
    Why are you interested in such a site

    You really are such a tease.

  362. Liz g says:

    Me again Dan
    Mr Blobby ?
    Now can ye see why they didn’t know who I ment 🙂

  363. schrodingers cat says:

    So I wouldn’t class it as an outright rejection but rather not being willing to be having “hypothetical” talks!

    liz, you are staring down a barrel, one we have seen before, ask rise

    you know liz, after several months of self imposted exile from wings, i came back 2 weeks ago. in truth, i had no idea what gra was, however, hearing some of the objections to it, i have begun to develop some sympathy to this cause. having a few msps in holyrood voicing these concerns isnt a show stopper. on the contrary, it would be a good thing.

    but you must understand, i and many others are driven by a serious desire for scottish independence.

    anyone who stands in the way of that will get hammered into the ground.

  364. Joe says:

    There’s an easy way out.

    The SNP must:

    1 – remove GRA and the proposed hate speech laws from consideration

    2 – they must provide a flexible, but committed, battle plan on a route for Scotland to challenge for its independence.

    Otherwise people don’t vote for the bastards. Not list vote. Not constituency vote. Nada.

    That’s the way out. That’s what Scots should be demanding before supporting these slimy bastards ever again.

    The time to use Brexit as an argument has almost passed. Scots would be better building a brand new party over 1 or 2 election cycles than throwing their lot in with these reptiles again.

    The best threat against politicians is to not vote for them. They simply dont give a shit otherwise.

    Bring them to heel.

  365. Sensibledave says:


    Ok Shug. You have made an “accusation” that I am “unionist”.

    Feel free to reproduce anything that I have written over the last 7 or 8 years that provides evidence to support your assertion.

    You won’t … because you can’t … because I’m not.

    … which demonstrates just how little your Insight and judgement is worth! Zip!

  366. Casabian says:

    Wings has turned into a strange place since my last visit.

    At one extreme you have sensible Dave fighting for the Union.

    At the other end you have this guy schidinger Cat fighting for Sturgeon.

    And stuck in the middle is this new breed of Scot, who neither wants the Union nor Sturgeon.

    They want a more direct path to INDY.

    No frills, no weird Bills attached, no infighting at the top.

    Just a plain old Party that will fight for Scottish Independence, nothing more, nothing less.

  367. schrodingers cat says:

    Casabian says:

    They want a more direct path to INDY.

    feel free to enlighten us, im all ears casbian

    as yet i only hear the meuling of kittens, gut if you perceieve different, do tell

  368. schrodingers cat says:

    i still think wings is looking healthier


  369. schrodingers cat says:

    Casabian says:
    20 July, 2020 at 11:16 pm
    Wings has turned into a strange place since my last visit.

    but it has turned into summat else?

  370. Casabian says:


    The SNP have too many side shows going on for it to be serious about Independence in the near future.

    Nicola Sturgeon is taking this “Once in a Generation” thing far too seriously.

    Someone needs to tell her it was only a figure of speech quoted by ONE person.

  371. Jim McIntosh says:

    Getting well pissed off with people’s excuse for not voting for ISP or other Indy party being “but what happens if the SNP lose constituency seats”. I’ll tell you, it means we are well under 45% of the vote so an Independence referendum isn’t going to be won anyway. If the unionists do get a majority maybe 5 years of unionist parties running Scotland will wake people up. But personally I don’t see a majority of unionist seats happening.

    So stop being so fucking negative, we need another party to force the SNP off their arse. If we’re still in this union in 2026 the ‘new’ party will be established by then. If we’re out its a ready made party for the new parliament.

  372. Casabian says:

    Gullable English media going crazy with headlines like, ” Vaccine at end of year”.

    When will they learn?

    We went through all this in May when we had headlines in the English media telling us we will have a Vaccine by September.

    They never learn and the gullable English will keep on lapping up crazy headlines like this.

  373. Rick H Johnston says:

    Stop your obsession with the SNP, man.
    If YES supporters who currently still vote for Tory Labour LibDem switched instead to an Indy List party it would be game over for the Union.
    Remember they won’t switch to the SNP. Too big a step, but many will have voted YES already in 2014.

  374. CameronB Brodie says:

    schrodingers cat
    As you don’t understand the law I can accept your position. However, I’ve only started ripping into this piece of legislative crap. Take it from me, these GRA amendments would create bad law that would hurt women in Scotland, Scottish democracy, and any hope for indy.

  375. CameronB Brodie says:

    There’s Joe advocating political disengagement, which is standard populist strategy.

  376. CameronB Brodie says:

    Legal protection of our economic, social, and cultural right has not been defined in Scots law, and Westminster obviously does not feel legally obliged to consider them either. Subsequently, all of our legal rights are extremely vulnerable to political whim. We apparently don’t deserve access to human rights, so undermining the linguistic logic of law and the potential for justice in Scotland, just seems excessively counterproductive, frankly.

    Backlash in Gender Equality and Women’s and Girls’ Rights

  377. Liz g says:

    Shrodingers Cat @ 11.11

    While I struggle to believe yer ignorance of the GRA,it doesn’t bode well fur yer credibility either way.
    If ye don’t know of it…yer not as on the ball as ye’d have us believe ye are, and if ye are up tae speed, ye just lied!
    I know not,or care less which!

    If it’s Rise yer thinking of,yer very much mistaken.
    The appeal of this list party is not towards ( or exclusive of) that’ll be pleased to learn that Independence to the exclusion of all other issues is indeed the focus.
    Everything else follows from it obviously !
    Why would ye struggle to get on board wi that?

  378. Me Bungo Pony says:

    @Dan (9:27)
    “There’d probably be even less risk to the SNP’s constituency vote share if they weren’t trying to implement batshit policies the electorate don’t want, but you seem less concerned about that for some reason”

    I am concerned about that, but it’s not the subject of this thread. And I’m not about to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I want an independent Scotland. I have done all my considerable life. The SNP are THE only party that can deliver that any time soon. The views and potential actions being advocated on this thread could set everything back decades. I’m not going to support that. I suspect the vast majority of SNP voters feel much the same no matter what a poll on a hypothetical might indicate.

  379. Liz g says:

    Me Bungo Pony @ 12.27
    The baby and bath water allegory has been the warning *To* the SNP for a couple of years now specifically because of their batshit policies..

    If you’re SNP then the responsibility is yours to address it.
    As for those who couldn’t get through they are ploughing an other road

  380. Me Bungo Pony says:

    Yes Liz, the road to nowhere.

  381. CameronB Brodie says:

    Someone please get this in front of the SNP’s management, as they appear to have an insufficient appreciation of the law, and have allowed anti-democratic practice to take hold of policy and strategy.

    Sociology of Health & Illness Vol. 18, No. 1, 1996, ISSN 0141-9889, pp. 17-44
    What is gender? Feminist theory and the sociology of human reproduction

  382. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’m honestly terrified by what appear to be happening to democracy in Scotland, and our potential to achieve justice.

    Space and Polity
    Volume 22, 2018 – Issue 2: SI: Brexit Geographies

    Women, equality and the UK’s EU referendum: locating the gender politics of Brexit in relation to the neoliberalising state

    This paper uses a feminist state-theoretical approach to explore the development of Brexit and argues that the UK’s EU referendum and its aftermath reflect a gendered politics embedded within the ongoing neoliberal restructuring of the state.

    Directing attention to the struggle to protect women’s interests, maintain equality strategies, and more generally infuse a gender dimension in political discussions, the paper emphasizes the risks of Brexit for women and gender equality.

    It concludes by asking how at the current conjecture – when European regulation on gender equality is being framed as ‘stifling’ economic growth – we can build up a fairer and more equal United Kingdom.

    Austerity, Brexit, Feminism, Gender Equality, State Theory, Women’s Rights

  383. Me Bungo Pony says:

    @Dan (9:27)
    “You are still failing to acknowledge that times have changed since 2016”

    Right back at you Dan. Since 2016 support for the SNP has risen by about 10 points with support for independence rising by about the same on the back of it. Yet we are to believe they are failing. Here’s to failure then.

  384. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’d suggest the only thing the party is succeeding in right now, is creating the conditions for a totalitarian state.

    The European Journal of Development Research volume 32, pages457–481(2020)
    Political Change, Women’s Rights, and Public Opinion on Gender Equality in Myanmar

  385. Liz g says:

    Me Bungo Pony @ 12.45
    Aye ..nowhere near Westminster…exactly how a lot ( a very lot of us ) like it

  386. Beaker says:

    @CameronB Brodie says:
    21 July, 2020 at 1:14 am
    “I’d suggest the only thing the party is succeeding in right now, is creating the conditions for a totalitarian state.”

    Remember to smile for the camera 🙂

  387. CameronB Brodie says:

    Beaker 😉

  388. twathater says:

    This maybe of some interest re the referendum situation

  389. Liz g says:

    See me @ 10.27 🙂

  390. Stoker says:

    Right now my recommendation is to go with SNP 1st AFI 2nd. But I want to learn a lot more before full on comital and I want to see all options available and all the players involved. The one thing I’m 100% certain of is that Sturgeon & Co must be ousted & the SNP regained by trustworthy fighters with Indy the priority.
    So this is what all the delays were about? UKGov doctoring the ‘Russia Report’ around to interfering in the 2014IndyRef? Aye! Right you are!

    In the space of an hour a short piece of nothing quadrupled in size to say, well, exactly what the first version said, absolutely eff-all. No evidence, no smoking gun, not even a suggestion of smoking evidence just a we’re telling you so it’s true article.

    A Russian Comedy – Act l:

    A Russian Comedy – Act ll:

  391. CameronB Brodie says:

    Establishing the source of law’s force isn’t esoteric knowledge.

    29 | 2016, Models of Legislative Authority, Interpretation, Realism, and Defeasibility
    Contributions from the 1st Genova-Slavic Seminar in Legal Theory

    A legal order?s supreme legislative authorities

    The first part of this article is about the rules that define a legal order’s supreme legislative authority. In this first part, the article also dwells on several distinctions such as those between norms and meta-norms, legislative and customary rules, and constitutive and regulative rules, all with the objective of determining which of these categories the aforementioned rules belong to.

    The conclusion is that the basic rules defining the supreme legislative authorities of every existing legal order are necessarily constitutive meta-norms and have a customary nature. The second part of this article takes into account the different possible contents of the ultimate rules that define legislative authority.

    On this basis, four models of legal order and legislative authority are distinguished: those corresponding to absolute authority and to moral authority, and those corresponding to the rule-of-law state and to the constitutional state. In this regard, several considerations are offered that, on the one hand, single out the specific notion of authority accepted within the constitutional state and, on the other, offer a specific critique of the theoretical distinction between constitutive and constituted authority.

    According to the analysis provided in this article, every authority is a constituted authority. In particular, supreme legislative authorities are constituted by customary constitutive norms that fall beyond the reach of the authorities themselves and do not depend on the decision or will of any particular individual.

    constitutive rules, constituted authorities, higher-order duties/rights

  392. CameronB Brodie says:

    Here’s a good companion to the above, highlighting how far Brexitanian populist constitutionalism diverges from good constitutional practice.

    A Practical Guide to
    Constitution Building:
    An Introduction

  393. Ayeright says:

    Me Bungo Pony wipes the floor with all the anti SNP wallopers once again. Bravo!

  394. twathater says:

    Liz G thanks for your info on the ISP and your comments to others upthread ,It is reassuring that the ISP are willing to oppose the GRA and HCB and obviously from the many responses from women and their supporters ( us male servants) they will gain respect and votes
    I notice MANY comments from posters about SNP members lending votes to these list parties , the exceptionalism and entitlement is palpable and derogatory , what about us VOTERS who LEND our votes to the SNP to bring about independence for OUR country , are WE not expected to have an opinion of how OUR VOTES are valued and used

    Like SC I don’t care about ANY political party , I care about the independence of Scotland the country and nation , and if that means threatening politicians to get off their arses and get it done or I will NOT vote for them , then so be it

    As it has been said REPEATEDLY Nicola Sturgeon has the ability to STOP all the stramash and division by ditching the GRA and HCB and MOVING TOWARDS INDEPENDENCE swiftly and decisively , that way she will keep female support and is probably guaranteed a longer term in office

  395. Davie Oga says:


    “The anti SNP wallopers”

    Are you trying to see if you can get them to abandon the SNP on the constituency vote as well?

  396. Would Labour,Tory and Lib Dems unite to form a government at Holyrood.

  397. cynicalHighlander says:

    @Scot Finlayson

    Same party just different coloured rossetes

  398. Rm says:

    The SNP can surely govern Scotland and at the same time go for ending the union by embracing one of the other independence party’s, its common sense, if they did they could let all the SNP members to get on board, if not their days will be numbered, I’m not a member of the SNP I’m just looking for Independence but two friends of mine have stopped their donations to the SNP their not happy with the party just now, there must be thousands of others thinking and doing the same the SNP will have to wake up quick, do they actually want to end this unfair Union, it doesn’t look like it to lots of people even their own supporters.

  399. Juteman says:

    So the media saying the Russians interfered in the 2014 referendum.
    Of course they did, David Cameron asked them to do it!

  400. @cynicalHighlander,

    they are united in their desire for a foreign nation to control their country,

    but would London head office allow them to unite and if they did unite how long before they all fell out,

    and would die hard Labour or Tory voters be happy to support each other,

    obviously the Lib Dems would support anything and anyone for a sniff of power.

  401. Casabian says:

    On Scotland’s patronising 2 minutes of the repeated News bulletins on the BBC thus morning, the reporter told us,

    “If Russia interfered with the 2014 Referendum then there could be serious repercussions..”,


    Are far as I remember, it was Cameron who invited EVERY World leader to come out AGAINST Scottish Independence.

    Add in EVERY house jock and celebrity and our bias media who were Instructed to come out AGAINST Scottish Independence, then you can see right away the that this report that is coming out in a few hours time should be treated with the same respect we give to all English Establishment bullshit.

    And throw it in the bin.

    The release of news about Russian interference in indyRef1 wouldn’t have anything to do with the rise in support for Independence today would it?

    Surely not?

  402. Sensibledave says:

    Casabian 11.47

    “Gullible English”?

    Casual r****m to the fore again.

  403. Polly says:

    ‘regrouping of the independence‘

    Well said. As Holyrood has matured, we need more credible choices if we want to support independence. As for Pete Wishart’s boast of being the longest serving in Westminster, god I despair. The fact he is is a sign of failure, especially after six years of SNP domination in every election since 2014. Good luck to the ISP.

  404. Polly says:

    Regrouping of the independence movement. Duh

  405. cynicalHighlander says:

    @Scot Finlayson

    Look at local councils they are perfectly happy to hold hands just to keep the SNP out of office.

  406. Casabian says:

    Sensible Dave

    Any nation who votes for an utter clown such as Boris Johnson to be their political leader is gullable in the extreme.

    Not racism, just a fact of life.

    Like the headlines in every english newspaper this morning telling the gullable english that there will be a vaccine by the end of the year.

    There are a few other descriptions of the english that I could add in this morning, but since this is a family forum, I won’t.

  407. Ottomanboi says:

    Re the 2014, was there not evidence from certain observers eg American and Russian that there were ‘irregularities’ in the counting process particularly with certain individuals having access to postal votes before the actual count, votes being ‘appropriated’ and the result ‘known’ to media well before the official declaration?
    The SNP declined to push this at the time apparently.

  408. Bill McLean says:

    Sensible at 0812 – stop being such a baby. See what even your Prime Minister called us – do we whine interminably about “casual racism” – is your feeling of superiority feeling threatened? On a much more “sensible” point – I though it was only the British establishment who interfered in the 2014 referendum: a request to Putin, and others, from PM Cameron. At the very least they broke purdah. I agree with someone further upthread that this Russia interference nonsense is a diversion from the reality! As was the entire Skripal affair – does anyone believe that 2 Russian agents were allowed to wander aroung sw England freely. If that’s the case our beloved Britannia failed in its security for the people brief. Daily doses of British bullshit makes everyone distrust them more!

  409. Clapper57 says:

    So The Torygraph expects us to believe , via the withheld Russia Report, that the Russians intervened in the Scottish Indy ref but NOT Brexit …..and apparently they were on the side of YES…to destabilise the (non)Union…surely, if Unionists are to be believed, this would have the opposite effect as it would stop England having to ‘subsidise’ Scotland….therefore one could argue they did the NO side a favour…..No?.

    This supposed interference means that they can then say that the 45% is not a true reflection of how Scots voted on the YES side…..but surprise surprise it would mean that the NO side would have won by more… how bad are the Russians at this interference …..cause YES lost…..and NO won.

    So the Torygraph expects us to believe that Russia interfered with Scottish Indy Ref for the Yes side but NOT with the LEAVE side in the Brexit vote….because breaking up UK would have an impact on the (non) Union but the UK leaving the EU would not be worth the effort for the Russians as no impact for the UK …..Huh?…..

    So it was to destabilise the Union… if we are to believe this (Lol) then perhaps the Russians knew the only way it would destabilise the (non)Union would be because the Russians knew how valuable Scotland was to the (non) Union…now that WOULD make more sense……and be more credible….

    No interference by the Russians in Brexit….really ?…sorry how much of this report has been redacted ?

    Oh but why are we talking about the release of the Russia Report on the same day pay rises announced for some public sector workers…..surely that IS the big story today….said the Tories….Lol…but they could not even get that right as they missed out many key workers such as Nurses and Care workers…God how useless and transparent the UK Government are…..

    If in doubt always blame the separatists…with a sprinkle of Russian interference ……mind you the Russians are very good at donating to Tory politicians… that IS a fact….will that be in the Russia report ?

  410. Casabian says:

    So if england is going to go to war with Russia AND China, will they be doing it without their big mate America?

    Or are they going to go ahead on their own?

    If the little englanders are going to war alone, I would say their whole Armed Forces will be wiped off the face of the earth within an hour.

    The upside for Scotland is that we get to build them another two new Aircraft Carriers.

    Go engerland!!!

  411. Famous15 says:

    The latest “research” group set up by Tory MP’s to save the Union is frantic ,frenetic, fuming and fundamentally batshit crazy.

    Why ,if we are so dependent on WM charity , are they losing their minds to keep Scotland tethered to their Treasury?





    AND if the Russkies interfered with the Scottish REFERENDUM on whatever side, does this not then merit a rerun?

  412. Clapper57 says:

    Conservative MP Rob Roberts invited an intern to ‘fool around with him’ and suggested ‘fun times, no strings attached….

    BTW..I know you will not believe this BUT BBC Teletext reported this but NEVER mentioned his party ……i.e. never once mentioned he was a Conservative politician…I had to look him up on Google to see what party he was from……will he be going on a diversity training course now ?….to help the Tory party sweep this under the carpet …oops sorry I mean to help him change his ways obvs…Lol

    BTW what’s happening with ex Tory Mp’s Charlie Elphicke case? …his wife is the new Tory MP for his former constituency….nice to see how supportive she has been chumming him to the court…..glad she won his constituency keeps it in the family see….lovely.

  413. mike cassidy says:

    The context is America

    But hard to disagree with the basic argument here.

    The Left is Now the Right

  414. Ottomanboi says:

    On the state broadcaster a certain Tim Spector, Kings college London, media darling and ‘epidemiologist’ ie a guy who likes to make models, gave it large about second wave, cold weather, air conditioning, social mixing, ongoing vigilence and the continuing (possibly til’ the end of time) of the need to suppress this pathogen.
    Epidemiology is a novel and parasitic discipline much loved by governments and media because of it’s sexy IT. No hands on messy messing about in labs.
    An April 2020 University of Southern California article noted that “The coronavirus epidemic… thrust epidemiology – the study of the incidence, distribution and control of disease in a population – to the forefront of scientific disciplines across the globe and even made temporary celebrities out of some of its practitioners.”
    Nuff said!
    Now virology on the other hand.

  415. Dan says:

    @Liz g

    I only turn into Barbapapa when it rains. 😉
    Got a couple of long hard graft days building scaffolding and removing a tonne of stone chimney, but will attempt to make contact if I survive the work!
    I’m just one individual though, there will be a YES Group registry on the likes of IndyApp.

    Me Bungo Pony says: at 1:04 am

    Right back at you Dan. Since 2016 support for the SNP has risen by about 10 points with support for independence rising by about the same on the back of it. Yet we are to believe they are failing. Here’s to failure then.

    Do you actually consider why that support has risen?
    Don’t be so ignorant or arrogant as to claim it is all down to the SNP and has nothing to do with “Brexit”, a Conservative majority of corrupt individuals, or may be the YES movement continuing to knock our pans in since 2014 setting up Hubs, street stalls, events, and marches. That’s six years of voluntary effort, work, time, meetings, and arranging everything from talks with politicians and journalists for the public to attend, to the hiring and marshaling of buses to nearly all the AUOB marches.
    And FYI I’ve also knocked my pan in for the SNP during some of this time as an Organiser and spending a lot of my time out amongst the electorate in every election, most recently including a month being out in occasional minus 10 temps during last December’s GE.
    So if SNP fail it will NOT be because of my efforts.

  416. jfngw says:

    They must believe we are total fools if they think they can sell the Russians interfered in the Indyref for the yes side.

    Who we do know interfered for the No side, these are the ones I remember:

    David Cameron and the Westminster government
    Squadron of English MP’s
    The Queen of England
    Westminster’s Friends in the Media
    Westminster’s darlings in the entertainment business
    Barack Obama
    Hilary Clinton
    EU officials
    Vladimir Putin

  417. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “is it not best to wait on the rejection of a new sec30 request 1st”

    Fucking hell, how many times do you need them to say no before you figure out that they mean it?

  418. @jfngw,

    a list of who was for and who was against Scottish independence 2014,

  419. Liz g says:

    Russia interference!
    Why wouldn’t they every other bugger did.
    Various Banks
    Trade unions
    Barrhead Travel
    Bowie by proxy
    Stars of all ages and rank
    Every news paper
    Ex prime minister’s
    Auld Lizzie Windsor
    The UK civil Service

    I mean it’s only a question of where to stop typing every one thought that they were entitled to tell us how to vote none respected our right to freely choose and held back….
    So Russia interfered did they…. I’ll bet they did because Cameron invited everyone to pile in on us why would he leave them out?
    Not forgetting all that London property they invest in.
    That would give Cameron the leverage he needed to encourage them to do what they could.

    The only thing that would be actual news is evidence of how close the attack from the space alien’s was…. Did we really dodge a ray gun or not?

    Here’s a thought,tis a bit out there though 🙂
    Let’s have another vote and we can keep an eye oot fur any interference and call it out.
    We can tell them all… Interfering is what Russia does,don’t be like Russia ….

  420. jfngw says:

    @Rev Stu

    It’s almost biblical, maybe they need to be denied three times.

  421. jfngw says:

    @Scot Finlayson

    I think I’ll take that list with a pinch of salt, it has the Daily ‘the vow’ Record and BBC (‘let’s call it devo max’) as neutral.

    I was trying to list high profile people outside Scotland who should have no say in a countries internal vote.

  422. Breeks says:

    Davie Oga says:
    21 July, 2020 at 3:29 am

    “The anti SNP wallopers”

    Are you trying to see if you can get them to abandon the SNP on the constituency vote as well…

    I’m way ahead of you there Davie.

    The SNP sits on it’s laurels taking all the credit for Scotland’s resentment of a Brexit forced upon us by the Tories, humiliation on the world stage forced upon us by the Tories, flagrant disrespect and derision of Scotland’s Constitution forced upon us by the Tories, embarrassment of Scotland in front of our European friends forced upon us by the Tories, incessant Anglicisation from Union Jacks on Scottish produced to the writing of Scottish History forced upon us by the Tories and the creeps at the BBC. Scotland is trying to say a massive NO to all of it, and that is where the 54% in the polls is coming from.

    And against that backdrop, the SNP under Sturgeon capitulated by their own volition, any constitutionally based argument which sought to defend the Popular Constitutional Sovereignty of Scotland. Scotland could have, and should have, had a constitutionally based “Backstop” which halted Brexit in it’s tracks because delivering Brexit could only be realised by the unlawful and unconstitutional subjugation of a sovereign Nation. Where was Scotland’s Backstop? Northern Ireland’s Backstop kept them in Europe while Scotland got Nicola’s spineless grovelling capitulation on 31st January… delayed so her words had more impact don’t you know? What a joke.

    Theresa May was telegraphed another green light to go ahead with any Hard Brexit she fancied, because Sturgeon told her she wouldn’t call an IndyRef before she knew the details of Brexit… Terrific. All the way back in 2016, Sturgeon handed ALL the initiative to Theresa May, and tied her own hands behind her back, paralysing Scotland’s rejection of Brexit because Nicola had committed us all to total inaction until such times as Queen Sturgeon knew the details of Brexit.

    So that’s Europe and Westminster being told back in 2016 that Scotland was NOT going dispute Brexit on Constitutional grounds; not because it was coerced into submission by Westminster, but led by the nose to Scotland’s craven capitulation by Sturgeon’s SNP adopting the English doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty overruling the emphatic democratic will of Scotland’s sovereign electorate. Scotland’s emphatic democratic rejection of Brexit would count for NOTHING! – so decreed by the SNP.

    All these shenanigans over Alex Salmond’s false conspiracy STINKS to high heaven of a lousy and rotten conspiracy to manipulate events, falsify and fabricate evidence to smear him and discredit his legacy, and to what end??? Who’s interests does it serve? The whole business REEKS of grubby collusion, conspiracy, and scheming connivance to take down the Giant in Scotland’s political landscape that is Alex Salmond.

    And when it failed, the Conspirators, still hiding behind their anonymity, still fight on to smear him through the Rxxx Crisis Centre, an organisation heavily funded by the SNP and their happy band of Wokists. MORE stink. But not content, Craig Murray is attacked on trumped up Contempt charges while the Anti-Salmond Media can publish whatever scurrilous innuendo it likes with absolute impunity. MORE stink! Then Mark Hirst is facing charges of intimidation and menace for promising nothing more than getting to the root of the conspiracy against Alex Salmond. MORE stink!

    BE IN NO DOUBT that Brexit has been Scotland’s one way ticket out of this depraved and decrepit Union. It has been a gaping open goal for Scotland to win it’s Independence simply by stubborn, stoic defence of Constitutional principle; the sovereign people of Scotland emphatically rejected Brexit, so Brexit going ahead could only ever be an act of colonial subjugation, – the forcing of one Nation’s will upon another, that is contrary to International Law, in a Brexit process where Europe is bound over to respect International Law.

    Stark fact for you- Westminster COULD NOT have forced Brexit upon Scotland WITHOUT the acquiescence of the SNP Government and their arbitrary decision to forfeit Scotland’s Constitutional rights.

    Vote SNP 1 + 2??? Well, the ISP make sense to me, so it’s not 1+2, but between now and their Election, I need to reconcile my anger and disgust at the SNP’s betrayal of Scotland’s Interests, and find a way of voting for them, while currently my every instinct is to see them impeached and flung from office.

    I generally hope that Alex Salmond has the reach and the clout to bring down the reeking House of Sturgeon, purge the SNP of it’s indolent careerists, and turn the SNP into something that’s worth voting for, rather than the “who else you gonna vote for” charlatans which far too many of them are.

    Time is very short however. The Brexit Rubicon was January. Sturgeon steered us past that, and Scotland is out of Europe without a fight. But the Transition Period doesn’t expire until December, and that all too brief few months is all the time we have to escape BritNat / US led deregulation being forced upon Scotland. Scotland is weaker for having done nothing to fight Brexit under Sturgeon’s lead, but I still have hopes some Constitutional intervention or interdiction might yet save Scotland’s interests.

    I am deeply suspicious however that all the talk about List Parties and the 2021 Holyrood Elections is just the latest diversionary distraction to the closing window of opportunity we have to fight Brexit on constitutional grounds.

    I cannot reconcile the imbalance of the SNP having such opportunity and circumstance these past five years but having done NOTHING to exploit it, and the SNP promising to begin the fight next year, after the British State has fully emasculated our Constitution, isolated us from from our friends in Europe, and is free to hold our Industry hostage.

    I am half joking, but only half, but wonder whether the SNP’s popularity they like to crow about is beginning to reflect support from borderline Unionists who now believe the SNP has no serious ambition to deliver Independence.

    ALL the problems the SNP is now facing, from Section 30 right across the spectrum to disgruntled ‘malcontents’ like myself, are problems of the SNP’s own making. It all stems from weak leadership with no strategic initiative masquerading as great leadership with a secret master plan that’s infallible. If Sturgeon was a quarter of the leader some people think she is, she would stand up and own the complete bourach she has made of Scottish Independence these past years, and stand aside for someone more competent. Probably Joanna Cherry, and an Emergency Constitutional appeal to the UN and Council of Europe. That’s the only thing I can see saving us, but sadly, the odds are not good. Sturgeon is digging in, and Sturgeon loyalists are circling the wagons.

    She won’t fight the Union on a 54% poll, but it’s a good enough argument for her to fight us, the long suffering YES army who only want someone better leading us and somebody actually putting up a fight for Scotland.

  423. Effijy says:

    So Tory PM Cameron asked the Russians to interfere in Indy Ref 1.
    He did a deal with TV companies not to show anything that revealed
    The horrors of the Red Coat Army governing Scotland nor anything
    About the Highland Clearances, and he asked the Queen to get involved
    To stop Scotland gaining its freedom.

    The did open ballot boxes before the official count too, but non of that is
    To be called CHEATING?

    A new political party being formed in accordance with legislation is to be
    Called cheating as the would like to see an independent Scotland ???

    England will make serious repercussions against Russia and China?
    What? We stop the import of Fury Hats and Chop Sticks.

    Either nation could turn the whole of England into a smoking landfill site within the hour.

    If Boris announced he was introducing conscription for a UK army to face the 100,000,000
    Chinese army I can only see the Knuckle Draggers being stupid enough to serve with Aircraft
    Carriers without Aircraft, or Desert Boots and rifles not suitable for Desert warfare or perhaps the
    Armoured military vehicles they had in Afghanistan that weren’t bomb proof.
    Would the medics have any PPE? lol

    I could injure myself laughing if Boris was dumb enough to think I’d fight for him.
    I’m not changing sides Bojo!

  424. Bob Mack says:


    Hammer, nail, head.

  425. Sensibledave says:

    Casabian 8.45

    … well if we are going to do the sweeping stereotyping then is there a population more gullible than the Scots?

    Based upon what I read here on Wings, Scots voted for, and keep voting for, an Independence Party that isn’t trying to gain Independence – according to most Wingers!

  426. CameronB Brodie says:

    Care to disclose your scientific and ethical position, or medical background, as you appear absolutely determined to undermine public health and safety?

  427. Big Jock says:

    Independence has become the” Elephant In The Room” for Nicola.

    She knows it’s there , but does her best to avoid looking at it. So instead she will drift from crisis to crisis, in order to face the music. Think about it.

    She won 56 seats at WM in 2015, but that was too soon after the 2014 referendum. So she focused on Holyrood 2016, instead of independence. When she won a majority in 2016 , the focus then shifted to Brexit. Not affirming Scotland’s vote to remain. Instead trying to stop England leaving and offering a compromise watered down Brexit to London. A compromise Scotland never gave her a mandate for.

    When that failed and Brexit went ahead. She then jumped back on the indi ref bus. But she was too late. The bus had left, the window was closed and a new government in WM told her to piss off. Opportunity squandered!

    Then came GE 2019. The one where she promised a referendum again! We gave her a massive mandate. She asked politely. Boris said no and that was the end of that.

    From January to March 2020 nothing happened. Radio silence.The SNP cancelled their Spring conference! I wonder why? But then along came another crisis , Covid -19. Within days of lockdown Nicola almost eagerly advised that indi ref 2 was cancelled. As if it was ever happening anyway.

    Now Nicola almost looks irritated that people are still talking about independence. Why aren’t we just letting her spend her whole time on Covid.

    She has already picked out her next crisis to avoid indi ref 2. The economic crash from Covid -19. That will be her focus for the next 3 years. But when Holyrood 2021 comes along. She will tell us during the campaign that it’s all about independence.

    Do you ever feel that you are dealing with the greatest confidence trickster since Houdini!

  428. twathater says:

    Breeks again and again and again , nail firmly on head

  429. David R says:

    The pro-indy lords and ladies in Holyrood will only accept another indy party if it agrees with their rather narrow view of what an independent Scotland should be. It also has to be willing to put their left wing student union cloud cuckoo nonsense before all else, especially giving the people that live in Scotland another opportunity to choose.

    Starting to think that the pro-indy politicians and those they surround themselves with are more worried about Scotland voting for indy than the pro-UK ones. They probably realise that once that happens they’ll be out on their arses. The latest batch of career politicians will then have to find another party to latch on to.

  430. David R says:

    @Breeks has got it pretty much bang on.

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