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Soapbox: What price freedom?

Posted on July 19, 2020 by

It’s literally carved on the walls of Parliament.

“I ken, when we had a king, and a chancellor and parliament men o’ oor ain, we could aye peeble them wi’ stanes when they were na gude bairns – but naebody’s nails can reach the length o’ Lunnon.” (Sir Walter Scott)

There are those who stay and there are those who leave. Since the 1700s the eyes of the ambitious Scot have looked towards London. Many have made the journey there and, as with Ireland, Scotland’s most precious export has been its people.

But for those of us who have remained in Scotland our eyes are still turned south.

Since the union of Parliaments, all of Scotland’s power and wealth went to Westminster so the wealthy and the powerful, as well as those who sought such things, went there too. With the re-establishment of Holyrood, some powers have come back, but only at the behest and permission of Westminster.

The wealth, however, has stayed there with Scotland only given some limited choice over where to spend what it is apportioned, a pocket money parliament working with one hand tied behind its back and both shoelaces tied together.

The Scots are a more confident people now than in 1997 and one of the reflections of this is the disappearance of the “cringe” associated with the use of Scots language, as demonstrated on the quotes on the Canongate wall of the Parliament building.

But in every other aspect, everything we do, every step we take, is done with that crick of the neck turned towards London, a feeling of just not being as good as them. Nowhere has that been more obvious than in the current attitude of the SNP towards independence and other independence supporters.

Britain is currently facing its worst economic crisis since the Second World War. The combination of Brexit and the chaos from the coronavirus pandemic is combining into a force that will hit the UK like an express train in a few months’ time. In that crisis of mismanagement and incompetence lies an opportunity for Scotland. There has never been a more compelling case for arguing for independence than the current situation we face.

So how is the SNP reacting? They’ve stopped talking about independence. While our people feel the full blast of oafish ineptitude courtesy of Boris Johnson, the SNP seek at every turn to avoid being seen as political, to avoid being accused of taking “advantage” of a situation which has seen thousands dead in Scotland and over 40,000 deaths across the UK.

Instead it is burying its head in legislation like Gender Recognition Act self-ID reform, and when anyone mentions independence we’re told, “Now is not the time” and to provide yet another mandate for independence, which coincidentally involves the SNP winning elections.

We’re told we have to be cautious in case London says no to any steps that we take to secure independence. At a point where the movement has an open goal in front of it, we are deferring to London and simultaneously tearing ourselves apart. It’s dire.

The Independence for Scotland Party (ISP) want to turn our eyes away from London, and back to where they should have been all the time; here in Scotland. The SNP Westminster campaign in 2015 had a picture of tartan benches in the House of Commons even though the SNP has no real place being in the House Of Commons. It’s meant to settle up, not settle in.

But if we can see the importance of removing unionist MPs from the benches in Westminster, why can we not see the importance of it in Holyrood? We need to make Holyrood our own and that means clearing out the rump of unionist supporting MSPs and their accompanying network. It is the oldest British colonial trick in the book; if you wish to rule a people, go and sit amongst them, then divide and rule. The only parties in Holyrood that oppose independence are funded by their London-based headquarters, that’s no coincidence.

As long as Holyrood remains divided betwixt unionists and nationalists, Scotland will be ruled by Westminster. While we squabble over whether Scotland should or shouldn’t be independent Westminster continues to control our wealth and choose where we might exercise our powers. Unite Holyrood on the issue of independence and we will gain the momentum we need to take control of all our powers, all our wealth and choose our own future.

We aim to provide a political home for independence supporters who are not comfortable with the direction the SNP is headed. After the 2014 referendum result, the majority of Yes supporters willingly corralled themselves into the pen of the SNP, but six years on and we’re no closer to independence.

Even when the Brexit vote happened and Scotland looked to be dragged out of the EU against our will, all of the focus from the SNP was on stopping Brexit, not on independence. It meant it was too easy for the movement to be targeted and side-tracked and we are now seeing the results of that in the inability, or unwillingness, of the SNP to move forward.

Indeed, according to the First Minister’s own promises we should have had a second vote by now. Late 2018 or early 2019 is what we were told – before or just after we left the EU was, she said, essential to show Scotland wanted to choose a different path.

But Theresa May said “now is not the time” and that was simply accepted instead of being challenged. And now Boris Johnson says the same, and once again Scotland shuffles meekly back to its kennel.

Some have accused us of splitting the independence movement, but that’s not the case. This is actually a long overdue and necessary regrouping of the independence movement. We are too big and too diverse a group of people to fit into one party. Some of us do have a different view on self ID, or economics, or education. We don’t need to fall out about it. The one and only thing we do all need to agree on is that Scotland should be an independent nation again.

The SNP needs to grow up as a party and understand that they do not hold the monopoly on independence, or any other policy for that matter, and that diversity in opinion and in the movement is a healthy thing. Independence supporters who hold different views from the SNP are not second class Yessers.

Having another party increases the political flexibility of the movement and it keeps us all honest. For far too long the SNP has been the only show in town for independence supporters, making it all too easy for Westminster and the media to directly equate support for the party with support for independence.

The loss of seats in the Westminster 2017 election was used to deny the strength of support for self-governance, while an increase in seats in 2019 was ignored by Westminster. Yet again a Section 30 order was requested, yet again it was denied, and yet again the SNP did nothing but accept it and say that Westminster would back down eventually.

We have news for you all: Westminster won’t back down. Ever. Especially when they think Scotland will choose independence. Yet SNP say a plan B isn’t what we need, we just need to give them yet another mandate with a majority at Holyrood, a parliament with a system specifically designed to avoid any one party having a majority.

Well, a little healthy competition does no harm – it could both increase the number of pro-indy MSPs and act as a spur in what is meant to be our main reason for existing; pushing the case for an independent Scotland.

We need to lose our fear, shed the cringe, stand tall and proud. Here’s the truth. Whatever we choose to do to gain independence, London is going to say no to it. That’s a given. Why then, should this stop us from acting? We need to defy them to say no. London is not the only player in this game.

We need to see ourselves in the eyes of our fellow Europeans who view Scotland as the country with some of the biggest oil and gas reserves in Europe and the greatest potential for green energy. We are vitally important to the future of Europe and the Europeans know it; why do we not understand that that is the key to our freedom?

We are not naïve. We are not ignorant of international law or of the UK’s position as a permanent member of the UN security Council. But neither are we of the opinion that Scotland is powerless to act without Westminster’s permission. Give us your vote and we will push this, from the minute we enter Holyrood to the minute Scotland gains its independence.

We will not be silent. We will be the voice of the Yes groups, the advocates of the unheard and the reminder to the SNP that their purpose is not to rule a devolved government forever on the back of pro-independence votes but to use their power at Holyrood to get independence for Scotland.

If we do not decide our course as a nation now, Westminster will decide that course for us. The answer lies, as it always has, with Scotland and the Scottish people. Let us take our own fate in our own hands and act while we still can. Because if we do not act soon, we may not get the chance again.

.

Soapbox is a weekend column designed to provoke debate on (usually) non-party-political issues. The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of Wings Over Scotland, except when we write them ourselves, obviously.

If you’d like to contribute a Soapbox piece (ideally 800-1500 words), send it to us via our Contact page, INCLUDING THE WORD ‘SOAPBOX’ IN THE SUBJECT LINE.

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Me Bungo Pony

Its RISE all over again. Just when we think Indy is within our grasp, up pop the malcontents to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. How very depressing …. Though not if you’re a unionist.

Andy Ellis

@David Hooks

Good piece David. Let’s hope more and more folk wake up to the point you make.

Thankfully not everyone is a hard of thinking slavish party loyalist like Bungo.

Me Bungo Pony

@Andy Ellis
“Let’s hope …. ”

And there’s the rub. Ask RISE how that went.

Bob Mack

@Bungling Pony,

Snatch what victory? In order to be victorious you have to win something. In this case a referendum, and there is no prospect of that on the horizon.

That is no fault of any Indy supporter,but rather of the party who has been promising that very thing. It is them who are failing to deliver.

Heaver

Bungo: different voting system, different game. If you want to increase the number of Independance minded msp s in Holyrood, vote SNP and ISP. Taint rocket science.

Famous15

Unless a timeline for independence is declared by the SNP I will seriously consider giving my list vote to another indy party. RISE was too far left for me. I am slightly left of centre.

I laugh at Unionists who cheat all the time crying “ cheat”.

How can you cheat democracy by voting as you wish?

Dan

@Me Bungo Pony

Could you please tell us of the actual process we are going to grasp Indy with?

Interesting that you have immediately commented with the “It’s Rise all over again” trope.
Rather than repeat what’s already be said btl a couple of articles ago. I’ll link back to the start of a chain of responses to you from other commenters and myself countering your view.

link to wingsoverscotland.com

Oor Steve

Long time coming. Where Scotland wakes up to the gaming that Westminster has been doing. Play them at their own game. There is nothing to lose if we ‘keep the heid’ and empty Holyrood of unionists. London ruled parties which have no place in Scotland. Count me in.

Auld Rock

David, will you tell all of us who have supported Scottish Independence for years (in my case 61 years) just how we mount a total campaign given that Covid-19 is still rife throughout the UK and the world and could without the necessity of severe restrictions on mass meetings, etc how you would recommend a campaign?

Effijy

Like so many desperate for Scotland to regain its Independence, it’s dignity and its place in the EU
I tell myself that giving Boris more rope will hang him, I say one more mandate, I say wait until
The Virus is subdued, wait until January when we are completely detached from the EU, wait until
We deliver another majority in the Holyrood election of 2021.

I am an SNP member still but the reason is my desire not to show Westminster that they are loosing
Thousands and their support is now failing.

If there was another Independence Party who appeared to have a chance of gaining a majority then
I would jump ship instantly. I will give that party my second vote in 2021 and complete refute the Unionist chant of cheating.
If ever a a pot called the kettle black.

I demand the SNP roar as we have low manageable Covid figures, leave the EU and on yet another
Holyrood majority.

The party is useless if these opportunities are not capitalised. They can put the bolt on the door.

How can this nation accept a PM who openly declared his contempt for us. a man of the lowest morals being an adulterer, a womaniser and a man who uses physical violence to restrain a screening woman in her own home.

The Tories have never been given a Scottish majority in over 65 years and yet they have ruled over us for most of that time. They have pathetic in their Brexit negotiations in managing Covid 19 and now we see Billions being given to their supporters in non disclosure contracts without tendering.

If we can’t beat a government with blood on its hands, corruption in its heart then we should be hiding in a cave looking for inspiration from a spider.

aulbea1

Got to go with David Hooks.

Effijy

The Marr show reports NHS England has exaggerated Covid Death figures?

Every piece of independent information that I have seen proves that their Covid
Death stats are 10’s thousands lower than they actually are?

The excess death figures in England leave this in no doubt.

The Tories are a mix of Hitlers pre war government and Orwell’s 1984.
They decided the meaning of words and figures and bear the right to change
Those meanings as suits their corrupt purpose.

They lie they cheat they distort and they demand that only they are right and
there is no resistance in the wind from any point on the compass.

Ian Foulds

Ref – Me Bungo Pony

Surely the wasted SNP second votes are likely to go to ISP and thus bolsters the chance of more Independence supporting MSPs in Holyrood and diminishes Unionist representation who only got in because of D’Hondt. Even if Rise had been successful that to would have diminished Unionist representation. I do not know why they were not successful – possibly because those who voted SNP1 were convinced by SNP that the second vote should go to them. Now we are all a little wiser, we should be voting more tactically to drive the Unionists out, as they do nothing for the people of Scotland.

shiregirl

A great read. The SNP don’t reflect my political views anymore and I am no longer a member. I am one of those politically homeless looking for a party that is actively pushing for independence in my lifetime whilst upholding womens rights rather than giving them away.
I in all honestly don’t recognise the SNP as the party I once voted for and were representative of the people. I also don’t recognise many of the MPs who were also once of the people but now have been turned by the career machine of westminster.
How sad, I helped fund this.

Rm

@David Hooks, lots of people are thinking like yourself, if only the SNP party did, if only the SNP would embrace the new party and turn it into the political wing and push for ending the union.

Bryan Weir

At the moment the SNP is all policy without passion (for independence). Looks to me that what you are proposing is all passion without policy.

Voters want passion and policy.

stonefree

Yes, RISE once again,
The article has many valid points, the SNP regard folk pro-independence but not SNP as second class (as stated)and unworthy.
The active members (the ones who go to the meetings)think and worse believe they are superior and nobody else matters, they don’t countenance anything but Sturgeon.
MacAlpine sprouted in the papers, his usual, Common Weal? Think Tank?….Good ideas? Well yes to a point , that point being the representative personas have their own agendas, mostly their self-importance
Was not MacAlpine not close to the centre of the RISE implosion? It seems so long ago
I feel I can’t neglect Bella , yesterday….seriously?
A bad boy from Bath and GRA ??. ffs
As things stand,Scotland is going to be treading water for the next 10 years, or until Sturgeon gets the pension.
It’s at the back of my mind that Murrell has so much dirt on party members, MSPs and MPs , that nobody is going to question, what is the only game in town

Doug Buchannan

Same old nonsense and self indulgence from chancers with a track record in absolutely zero whose judgement and motives can’t be trusted!

The SNP, FM and the independence movement have take us to within touching point, now is not the time to rock the boat when we are approaching 60% support.

As for the gender recognition, you plainly lie about this, it’s off the agenda and not under discussion, you are pushing right wing unionist garbage, that frankly, no one gives a flying fig about. If you do wish to bring this to the fore, do it when we are independent, not now. It’s a toxic debate that should have no bearing whatsoever on a country securing its freedom!

Furthermore resurrecting politicians from the past, it is not going to happen, they too have lost trust and no matter their achievements, their time has come and gone.

Do you need to know anymore than unionism will be delighted and hoping chancers such as this are successful! Divide and rule, how may times does this have to be highlighted and it’s damage to movements and causes throughout history explained?

panda paws

An excellent piece by David. I’d be delighted if the SNP were the party that delivers independence. However I see the beginnings of a worrying resemblance to Labour – vote for us for home rule and abolition of the HoL which never, ever happened.

“For far too long the SNP has been the only show in town for independence supporters, making it all too easy for Westminster and the media to directly equate support for the party with support for independence.”

THIS! Witness 2014’s refrain of Alex Salmond’s referendum or the SNP’s bid for independence. Yes RISE was a disaster and perhaps the new parties will fail too but unless there is a catastrophic drop in the SNP’s constituency polling, voting SNP on the list will be a waste of time in all but two regions of Scotland anyway.

I don’t think there is any doubt that the SNP has been infiltrated by entryists more interested in their pet projects and power than indy. So don’t blame the electorate if some people decide to change their votes accordingly.

Dave M

This is long overdue. We need plurality in the independence movement, desperately. There are three Unionist parties, while we are stuck with the SNP and, nominally, the utterly mad Greens. The result of this is an SNP which has essentially become the Labour Party which it always used to aim most of its fire at in the 80s and 90s. They have become complacent and hubristic in the face of useless, policyless opposition; and their own social policy agenda has become increasingly bizarre.

Sovereignty of the people only counts if and when we have the ability to make choices which reflect our own priorities. Does the current SNP really reflect our priorities, or are they reflecting the priorities of their friends in apparently science-denying third sector organisations? Organisation which receive generous taxpayer funding, no less. That’s a conflict of interest at best; corruption at worst.

All the while, the SNP dangles the carrot of a referendum, but only if we just keep voting for them. Yet independence is the word they dare not utter. Why do they not mention the very thing they were formed to bring about? The short answer is that they are too used to power – or a limited version of it. They want control, but why not responsibility? For responsibility is what comes with independence.

We deserve to have other ways of reflecting our political wishes in Scotland. It’s unhealthy for the Yes movement to be effectively held hostage by the SNP, particularly when they have done absolutely nothing to advance the cause of independence in the last six years, preferring instead to promote strange fringe interests. I for one would prefer Scotland in the World than Scotland the Woke.

BK

That’s it, Stuart. I’ve followed, and agreed with most of the sentiments expressed in, your blog for years. I hoped that the worm thrusting its head out of the apple was a temporary diversion. But now, clearly, it’s more than that. It’s a monster that threatens to split the Independence vote and, ultimately, reduce the likelihood of Independence. I urge all yessers to give both votes to the SNP in all future Holyrood elections.
I will now boycot this blog and I suggest that all those who agree with me would best serve the cause of Independence for Scotland by doing likewise. Join me in denying divisive voices like Wings the oxygen it desires.

Vivian O'Blivion

Nicola’s mum says Scottish independence is Nicola’s “life long” ambition. Average female life expectancy in Scotland is 81. So, free by 2051 it is then. Fuck that!

FiferJP

Yessers: Open goal!
SNP: Nah ahm offside.

Blair Paterson

Aye it’s always jam tomorrow

Mike K

If the Bungling Pony thinks this is rise all over again.

Can I advise him that all the loons that would be attracted to a RISE type party are now thoroughly ensconced in the SNP.

Breeks

Me Bungo Pony says:
19 July, 2020 at 9:19 am

…Just when we think Indy is within our grasp, up pop the malcontents to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

I’ll sign up to being a malcontent, but not because Indy is within our grasp, but because Indy was within our grasp, when the Scottish Electorate emphatically voted to remain in Europe, and that vote wedded to Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty, provided for Scotland to secure a Constitutional Backstop and thereby, the capacity to deliver Westminster an ultimatum that it should abandon Brexit in deference to the sovereign integrity of the Scottish Constitution, or consider the Union Treaty to be at an end if Westminster sought to overrule Scotland’s sovereign edict.

The very same strategy of Backstop was very effective securing access to Europe for Northern Ireland, whereas Scotland has been drummed out of Europe by Westminster’s colonial subjugation, while the Scottish Government caved in on all fronts, and far from protecting Scotland’s Constitutional interests, picked up the colonial Scotland Act as a club with which to batter Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution into a corner. Westminster itself could not have done a better job sidelining and Scottish Constitution and undermining Scotland’s doctrine of popular sovereignty.

And what has the SNP delivered from it’s bundle of mandates? Nothing. Not a godamned thing. It’s been left to private, non governmental initiatives to keep the pot boiling; AUOB marches the length and breadth of Scotland which Scotland’s First Minister doesn’t even have the grace to attend.

The SNP sit perplexed about the Section 30 veto which they handed to Westminster, and it takes another private initiative to take the SNP’s paralysing conundrum and at least make some attempt to thread a legal argument through the law courts and secure a workaround for Scotland which the SNP couldn’t even be bothered to look for.

How many Legal precedents does it take for the SNP to notice? Joanna Cherry, as part of a private legal initiative won a landmark ruling that Boris could not arbitrarily prorogue the UK Parliament to avoid scrutiny, because under Scots Law, the people are sovereign, Parliament serves the people, and the UK Parliament could not remove itself from scrutiny from the people.

The essence of Joanna Cherry’s victorious case to clip the wings of Boris Johnson UK Prime Minister, has Scotland’s sovereign Constitution right at it’s heart, and provides modern, up to date precedent that the essential principles of Scotland’s Constitution, that is the proper Constitution of the Nation, (not the aspiring rogue contender to be our Constitution which the Scotland Act represents), but defining Constitution of the Scottish Nation still has force in law.

The SNP is not steering us towards Independence. Since 2016, when they turned their back on Scotland’s Constitution, they have been paddling their own canoe, making up the rules as they went along, and have come unstuck because Westminster cannot overrule the sovereignty of Scotland, but it can overrule a cabal of naive know-it-all politicians who are dumb enough to think democracy is the trump card of a sovereign constitution.

We HAD victory! Independence and a seat in Europe! It was there at our feet, and Nicola Sturgeon took it upon herself to look the other way. So yeah, I’m as about as much of a malcontent as malcontents get. She’s not going to sell Scotland down the river, she already has, and the SNP beg for more.

prj

Another article telling us how to get rid of unionist MSP’s. Great, sounds good but no substance. How is this to be done?

How is the ISP going to achieve 30%+ of the list vote to make the difference? So far this idea is communicated across social medial and various blogs. So a favourable response is more forthcoming from this source, creating a false picture of support for this idea. Bearing this in mind how does the ISP plan to reach all the SNP supporters and convince them to switch there list vote?

What happens if the SNP lose constituency seats and the ISP don’t make 30% of the list vote? We stand to lose an Independence majority.

A factor is the Starmer effect, how will that affect the unionist vote, how will that affect the SNP vote? especially the Labour vote who moved to the SNP at the last election. The answer to that is we don’t know. Starmer at present is saying no to a referendum. To win votes he may give a faux promise on a referendum, we just don’t know.

At present we have an Independence majority and we also had one in 2011. Granted the Greens are required to maintain this majority and they have used this to gain influence in the SG. The ISP hopes to do the same, hopefully influencing a decision on Independence. But and this is a big but, the ISP is probably going to be made up of factions from different ideology within the Independence groups. How is discipline going to be maintained, what is going to stop them breaking up into different fringes? We do know some of the fringes in the independence movement and some are like Marmite, you either like them or you don’t. Even recently some with strong socialist ideology have discussed supporting Labour to gain socialism in the UK. If this happens the unionists will make it a big deal and use it to harm the independence cause.

One more thought on a super majority in the Scottish parliament. Unionist rhetoric already state the SG is undemocratic because of the SNP’s success and many want the SP disbanded. Can you imagine the rhetoric if there is a super majority, especially from Westminster? So far the system that was put into place by Westminster isn’t broken. This makes it difficult for Westminster to interfere in this “democracy” but when this “democracy” is deemed to be broken as in a super majority then Westminster will interfere. A super majority will be the catalyst to disband the SG under the pretext of being undemocratic, this will be sold by the MSM.

There will be a hell of a lot of people not liking this post, but I do feel these are all issues that need to be answered.

stuart mctavish

Its only RISE II if its to the left of the Greens. If it can attract honest people from across the political spectrum it becomes the real deal, arguably more so than the SNP (ironically).

Catch 22 is that whilst SNP’s 74 (74!!) remain unchanged, the first 8 of the ISPs seats would come from the 10 currently predicted for the greens so, unless there is transparent collusion from the top, a nod and a wink on the ground, and/or something from left (right?) field like Alex and Adam Tomkins at its core, the risk of attracting vitriolic distraction remains high.

[…] Wings Over Scotland Soapbox: What price freedom? It’s literally carved on the walls of Parliament. “I ken, when we had a king, and […]

Astonished

The SNP leadership have brought this on themselves. The SNP used to be a very broad church welcoming all. They have been hijacked by the woke.

The hubris of allowing fully anatomical men to declare themselves women. And thinking that will be an end to the matter. Yusuf’s frankly idiotic and repellent ‘You’ve hurt my feelings so you’re going to jail for seven years’. And the utter failure to live up to their previous statements (Blackford especially).

The SNP are going to lose seats in the Holyrood election unless they change direction soon.

For those of us who want independence but detest self I.D. and humza yusuf’s self I.D. protection bill – ISP is our only home.

Johnny

Dave M:

Quite agree, plurality is overdue. Indeed, any multiplication in pro-indy parties would only foreshadow what everyone expected regarding the SNP post-independence, i.e. that the ‘broad church’ would split. It might just happen before that now, instead.

I am in the ranks of those who don’t think it’s awfully healthy that they keep promising to do something and the signally failing to do it. I am also not interested in ‘oh but they never *specifically* said they would do it at X point!’ type arguments. This is where Robin McAlpine’s ‘stage wink’ point gains currency; they have collected votes by leading people to believe that ‘just this next thing’ was going to result in concrete moves.

There will be those who argue that there are reasons it hasn’t happened yet, but in amongst all the talk about ‘cheating’, I can’t help but think that the ‘cheating’ the SNP should be most worried about in the medium to longer term is their own voters feeling they have been ‘cheated’ as they try to appeal to everyone else.

You can argue whether it’s rational or fair for voters to feel ‘cheated’ on this score but at the end of the day all that really matters is whether they do or not. Comparisons between the SNP and New Labour often abound and it’s hard not to compare some sections of the Yes vote who now feel taken from granted with those Labour voters who’ve deserted them (for different reasons in Scotland and England) because they were off trying to appeal to ‘the moderate right’ or soft Nos’, depending on which country you’re talking about.

Nothing lasts forever.

Me Bungo Pony

@Ian Foulds
“Surely the wasted SNP second votes are likely to go to ISP”

IF that is what happens it would get the ISP lots of MSPs. IF. But that won’t happen. As I’ve said before, the arithmetic of the cunning plan is flawless. However, a general election is not an arithmetical exercise. It requires real people to cast real votes.

The vast majority of SNP voters are not reading this thread/article. They are either oblivious or not interested in the cunning plan. All the internet bloggery and pamphleteering explaining the intricacies of the d’Hondt system are unlikely to impress them. As RISE, Solidarity and even the Greens have found to their cost in the past.

The malcontents are only likely to get, at best, either none or 1-2 MSPs at the expense of the SNP and Greens. At worst, they could lead to more unionists in Holyrood as a slight drop in the SNP List vote could be all that’s needed to let them in. Why risk it for no real gain.

And what would this tiny contingent of ISP MSPs do to magically get independence? According to the malcontents, their mere presence would deliver us to the promised land. No explanation is ever offered as to how.

The saying goes; “those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it”. That’s what we have here. I can only hope (there’s that word again) they flop as spectacularly as all the other “cunning plan” parties have, thus preserving the momentum independence currently enjoys in Scotland.

Moone

If a Westminster operative, of which we can be certain many are amongst us, wanted to bugger up any chance of this IFS strategy working. All they would need to do is create another allegedly pro indy party or even many of them, all astroturf. Then voters would see too many choices for indy, risking vote splitting, with the resultant beneficiaries being unionists.

Pro-Indy supporters would then feel safer sticking votes 1 and 2 for SNP.

Similarly the way to delay the lot, Election timing I mean, would be to instigate another spike in virus infection cases. Sturgeon has, I believe said that the election would take place “virus permitting” or some such other wording but same meaning.

I hope I’m not being all of a downer on this, but we are vulnerable to those devious evil b’stards actions.

ScottieDog

It was inevitable this would happen. The Scottish Parliament is over 20 years old and worryingly it looks like the SNP are making the mistakes of Scottish Labour.

Robin McAlpine took a roasting for referring to this..

“Some supporters of the First Minister relish the prospect of the fight. The new fundamentalists who demand a referendum will, says one Sturgeon ally, have to show exactly how they are going to organise a referendum that’s recognised as legal and would allow for Scotland’s return to the EU. If they cannot do this then, in the words of this particular campaigner, “they can shut up or f*** off”.

I keep hearing the disdain of many in the SNP towards new parties citing their ‘lack of credibility’ over certain policies.

The above quote is highly hypocritical since their own policies very much lack credibility. This is a party which cannot say how exactly it would be allowed to enter the EU whilst not having its own sovereign currency. Remember a sovereign currency was very much against the growth commission proposals until Andrew Wilson’s impossible 6 tests had been achieved.
Neither can they explain how we would avoid austere policies since we would have to sign up to the EU stability growth pact which limits govt deficits to 3%. An absolutely crazy rule the SNP brush over like it didn’t exist.
For the avoidance doubt, the U.K. was exempt from adherence to the stability growth pact, Scotland won’t be.
So David’s proposal of EFTA membership already holds more credibility than the SNP’s approach to the EU.

liz

I see Bungo again panicking on behalf of the SNP – do they pay you well?

I sense a real panic in them, the amount of abuse that ISP have taken , is shocking, even to the extent of questioning their mental health.
And the FM has the nerve to talk about sexism in the press.

Also give me a break, the menopause is not the last taboo.

How dare the staffers at SNP think they can get away with that. The fact that, yet again, no one is disciplined, leads me to believe the SNP is now morally corrupt.

Bungo I didn’t believe project fear when the unionists spouted it, and I certainly won’t be believing from you

Republicofscotland

Well said David, you’d never get Sturgeon coming on in here and laying it out, hell she doesn’t even attend AUOB marches, from a party that’s meant to see independence as is number one goal.

Most of us in here have expressed concerns about the SNP’s glacial move, if at all, to independence, I say the more independence minded parties at Holyrood the better.

Graf Midgehunter

Well said David Hooks.

Clearing out the Brit Nats and strengthening the indy majority in Holyrood is only a stepping stone forward, it’s not in itself a referendum but symbolises that Scotland is gaining more power and actually ready to do something with it.

RISE was a fringe grouping whereas the ISP comes from the heart of the YES movement and with it brings more capabilities to spread the necessary recognition with the potential voters.

The Rev, maybe AS as well as other “big” hitters would further boost the national image of ISP as a partner for Independence in HR.

WM and the rest of the Brit Nats are definitly rattled, it’s something they forgot in their tactics. They didn’t expect the Scots or their “Grand Master” in Bath to come up with a plan to give them a big kick in the Crown Jewels as well as forceing the SNP to recognise they’re not the only ones in the Indy game.

AndSpouse

Couldn’t agree more. Good piece, thankyou.
I do get upset when I think of the fact I loaned out my vote to SNP on the grounds they’d accept the agreement from me that they used it for Indy2.
Indy parties only methinks.

AndSpouse

It’s inevitable! The longer it takes The more we will be asset stripped!

Proud Cybernat

@David Hooks

I have considered lending my List vote to ISP because I genuinely believe it will:

a) Deliver more Indy-supporting MSPs who will give the SNP the kick up the rectum it severely needs.

b) Potentially help to spike stupid SNP policies such as Self-ID.

Then along came some other List parties.

Look, this Indy List Party strategy will only work if it is ONE single party and preferably one with a political big-hitter (you know who I mean). That is the ONLY way this strategy will work because two or more Indy List parties will simply split the List vote and the BritNats will ride on right thru the middle. With two or more Indy List parties (and no big hitter) this strategy WILL FAIL. But if this is what ends up happening then come election day I will be remaining at home and the SNP can whistle Dixie. They’ve had enough of my mandates and more than enough of my patience.

Indy List Parties – get your heads together and get yourselves organised. If you all can’t agree on specific policies then park them for AFTER indy and agree what you can in order to form ONE List Party. It’s ONE or NONE.

We have a very small window of opportunity here. For the love of Scotland, let’s try and work together for once instead of against each other.

Beaker

We need to get away from treating a vote for independence as a courageous decision, by using emotion as a reason to vote yes. The harsh reality is that economics and financial impact will determine how most people will vote.

If emotion was the primary driver, the 2014 result would have been a resounding victory. It wasn’t. And I doubt if most of the No voters were influenced by the “Vow”, which to me is used too often as a handy excuse.

Brexit, harsh as it is, can be a useful ally for independence, but only if used wisely.

Josef Ó Luain

A worthwhile contribution, Mr H. Unfortunately, confidence and belief in anything other than the wretched status quo has always been in short supply here in Scotland. It was similar thinking, many years ago, that informed the vote which saw Scots naively relinquish the oil-card in favour of the status quo. Everything has changed, but nothing has changed, it appears to me, at any rate.

Ken McNeil

Note to Stu. Would be helpful if a short bio of the contributers to Soapbox was included.

Me Bungo Pony

The level of delusion on this thread is remarkable.

Under this SNP govt led by a woman who is now the most popular and respected politician in the country, their support has grown to 55% with support for independence at sustained record levels on the back of it. Yet we are to believe they have “failed”; that they are a “busted flush”. It’s nuts.

Anyone who thinks knifing Nicola Sturgeon in the back, undermining support for the SNP and replacing some of their MSPs with an Indy version of UKIP (or unionists depending on how badly the cunning plan fails) will somehow magically deliver independence is kidding themselves. How will that happen?

The echo chamber of an internet site is not representative of the country as a whole. It only represents the views of the people who inhabit it. Something many on this site seem oblivious to.

Me Bungo Pony

@Liz

Obviously, I am not in the pay of the SNP. I am in the pay of the NHS. I’m just a guy who works Monday to Friday (sometimes weekends) and spent yesterday afternoon painting his shed. And you can be certain that when I go into work on Monday, people are going to be far, far, far more interested in the colour I painted the shed than they are in the contents of this thread (not hard as that would be zero interest).

PS The shed is sky blue with cream trimmings. We’re quite pleased with it 🙂

John Dickson

SNP 1 ISP 2, get independence then clear out the woke.

Patricia Spencer

Absolutely on the nail! It’s with escalating interest watching the tactics,abuse and derogatory language used to describe those who dare question the ‘both votes snp’ mantra! Especially from fellow indy supporters!

schrodingers cat

@MBP

a bit harsh. folk are just scunnered. but for all their comments, none have actually said what they would actually do with this super majority? what extra power would this give nicola that westminster couldnt ignore?

but after saying that, in 7/8 regions 850k snp list votes elected one snp list msp, maree tod.

Is an indy list party a risk? Yes. Is it a big risk? No. Is it a risk worth taking? Yes.

will a super majority at holyrood make a difference? Id like to think that bojo would cave in and say, “well offski then scotland, see wot I care” but i would bet on it.

we live in interesting times

Allium

To be fair, even if it only got rid of one Green MSP, I’d feel that a new party was worth it for that reason alone.

Asklair

Regional/list vote is not for the SNP anymore. ISP appears to be the symbolic indy party to have ownership of our 2nd vote.

Dan

@Bungo

Just in from painting my newly made window sills myself…
Why are you discussing the colour of your shed with your co-workers and not bringing up the subject of educating and discussing the political reality we are currently dealing with.
On here you are talking to many activists who communicate with each other, groups, and the wider community.
Just because you can’t comprehend or acknowledge what could be possible with an agreed united campaign strategy, don’t start pissing your negativity into the tent of those that spend a huge deal of time and effort trying to resolve this situation.

tartanfever

Me Bungo Pony

‘The echo chamber of an internet site is not representative of the country as a whole. It only represents the views of the people who inhabit it. Something many on this site seem oblivious to.’

So why are you here and why are you worried ?

McDuff

MBP 9.19
Explain how Indy is “within our grasp” when you have a leader who is overwhelmed with indifference towards Indy. Six years since the referendum and we are up just two points since then.
So tell me what has the SNP been doing to secure our freedom. The plan?

Me Bungo Pony

@SC

IF it works with little or no detriment to the SNP …. great …. phew …. dodged that bullet. But as a cautionary sort who would rather keep his money in the bank than bet the lot on a long shot at Kempton Park, I’d rather the risk (which goes beyond mere voting; unionist propaganda opportunities etc) wasn’t taken,

schrodingers cat

McDuff says:
Six years since the referendum and we are up just two points since then.
————–
actually, we got 45% in indyref1
—————————
So tell me what has the SNP been doing to secure our freedom. The plan?
————————–

increasing support for indy to 54%, up 9 points

jus’ saying 🙂

Daisy Walker

@ Doug Buchanan

‘The SNP, FM and the independence movement have take us to within touching point, now is not the time to rock the boat when we are approaching 60% support’

The SNP, FM have let the frog come to a boil slowly…. almost there now, as soon as a no deal Brexit is over the line, we lose Holyrood in all but name – jobs a good’n.

Sunday National today full of articles about Westminsters Holyrood power grab, dismantling devolution.

Well, I told them so, and I told everyone here it as well.

Question, would they be so confident to show their hand just now, if the FM and co were likely to put up a fight?

With a No Deal Brexit we lose our NHS, our farms and food standards, our whisky industry, our oil and gas (obviously) and any opportunity to re-invest oil profits into renewables will be gone.

We are so screwed and we have 1 minute left to stop it getting over the line.

Forget parties just now, put that to one side, look at what needs to be done, and then we do it.

Someone else above said SIP were a party without policy. Right just now, I’d say that is a good thing. Its about Independence. Everything else is second to that. And the electorate have been through so much now, on an emotional level, it has to be now all about Indy.

RE the comment about SIP being the new RISE…. actually its about the SNP being the New Labour and NS being the new Tony Blair.

Johnny

Me Bungo Pony doesn’t understand what hubris is or that pride comes before a fall.

At some point, a Scottish Labour Party wallah said “och we are miles ahead in the polls, untouchable. All they folk saying there’s mumblings of discontent are in an echo chamber. Nah, the wider voting public isn’t going to vote for somebody else. We’ll see off these interlopers!”

The interlopers then would have been the (admittedly long established but still interlopers in the minds of the Labour Party and some of the public) SNP.

Labour were eventually toppled and they still don’t really understand how it happened and blame yir voters for catching onto their game!

Proof that if you take the electorate for granted for too long, you’ll be punished eventually.

The only question is how soon that point is reached UNLESS you actually deliver on your key promises (Labour never did).

Geoff Anderson

I have read the articles on this blog for many years. It was a daily ritual to read the blogs and posts at work breaks.
I gained an enormous amount of knowledge from a wide variety of people who once posted on here.

It is with a great deal of regret that this is my final visit. The aggressive, abusive language of the site guards has been negative and corrosive. As someone who has only recently started posting I have not received any abuse but today I witness others being attacked because they dare to question the inner circle.

It is truly sad to see such a great site turn into a bear pit.

schrodingers cat

@MBP

the unionists will howl at the moon no matter what we do. bbcPravda here in scotland is in full propaganda mode, us discussing a new indy list party wont change that.

re horse racing analogy, yes, the future is always an unknown

but we arnt making random decisions, we arnt pinning a tail on a donkey, from where i’m standing, im betting the house on a thoroughbred in a race against a bunch of knackers yard dodgers

ps, i know a lot about horses. wy wife’s a nag 🙂

Dave M

Me Bungo Pony

‘The echo chamber of an internet site is not representative of the country as a whole. It only represents the views of the people who inhabit it. Something many on this site seem oblivious to.’

Well the SNP makes social policy to appease a handful of loud (party and otherwise) activists on Twitter (used by 1% of the population), so perhaps they ought to listen to your advice.

Confused

it’s not the new RISE – more like the

ANTI-RISE

– RISE had more baggage than a Hermes catalogue

the real trouble with the SNP is they want to be the “Super Greens” – a bourgeois, social democratic party, fully signed up to every strand of identity politics; it loves legalism, rules, structure, compromise, committees, procedurals – the disruption and decks clearing involved in independence is psychologically terrifying to them.

if the new party fails badly (and it will be tough anyway) – it will be because they have no media profile

Tony O'Neill

Nicola sturgeon =toom tabard imho.

schrodingers cat

Confused says:
if the new party fails badly , it will be because they have no media profile
—–
if it fails, it will be because they fail to convince the snp voters on the list to back them

a simple point that the “snp ate my hamster” brigade here would do well to remember

Athanasius

A LITTLE to the right of the SNP, as far as I can see, but not nearly far enough to effectively distance the ISP. I’ve repeatedly said, you’re going to need a proper, small c conservative party dedicated to independence (and social conservatism is NOT automatically unionist) to get it over the line. Just allowing MSPs a free vote on issues of conscience and opposing the self-ID laws is not enough.

Effijy

Geoff, please remember if you work for the Tory Government, BBC, Right it Left wing newspapers,
Military Intelligence or you are just a dumb Unionist they will come on this pro independence site and
Disrupt in every way possible.

There is a whole lot of money on their side so they have all the divide and disrupt options available and we, the tax payer can pick up their tab.

At least for some posts we see the false claims of the union and learn how to shoot them down in flames.

I see this as my site. I’ve learned so much here, I need to see there are so many like minded good people out there. I won’t be scared away, lied away or distracted from our goal.

Neil Anderson

Surely the best candidate for any list seat is the pro-Indy candidate with the best chance of winning.
It’s ridiculous to see any of us playing party interests over this.
ISP & the other ‘new list’ parties need to merge into one new list party fast, & I’d be interested to hear from anyone involved if that’s happening.
The possibility that 2 different new list parties might stand in a list seat is astonishing.
The idea that SNP should not stand aside where another Pro Indy candidate has a better chance is nonsense
Or if the Greens won’t stand aside in the same circumstances because their other policies are more important to them than independence, is that acceptable to the rest of us who take the view that independence comes first.

Jim Lynch

David Cameron agreed to a Referendum because he was convinced we would lose it.

However he got a fleg, so did Theresa May.

The Treaty of Union is undemocratic – think we should look at that.

schrodingers cat

If a new indy list party does wipe out a whole heap of useless unionists msps… good

this site would be better off discussing how they go about doing that

i’m not convinced creating a super majority, will make any difference, but its worth a try

schrodingers cat

Neil Anderson says:

ISP & the other ‘new list’ parties need to merge into one new list party fast, & I’d be interested to hear from anyone involved if that’s happening.
——————–

um… the isp have already told the new alliance party that they are taking their ba’ away. not going to happen

Muscleguy

@MeBungoPony
Not seen you here before, wonder why? RISE shot themselves in the foot with a witless, pointless ignorant about what is devolved & reserved attack on the SNP. They could have attacked the Tories and FibDems but no, it was the SNP. I wanted to like them but that ensured they would not get my vote. It could have come from the Labour Party press office it was that bad.

The ISP are expressly not an anti SNP party, we will pressure them into doing better for Scotland not attack them every FMQ for the sake of it. When they deserve praise we will give it. There will be no Bain principles. If we think the SNP need stopping, over GRA or the Hate Crime Bill for eg we will seek a coalition of the willing (in the NZ sense) to do so.

Scotland has not actually fully settled into multipary democracy yet. Pace Sturgeon not even phoning Patrick Harvie first to congratulate the Greens on their electoral success and secondly test the waters for a full coalition with a Green minister or two or as is custom elsewhere a Confidence & Supply agreement. It was politically naive of her not to do that. The woman she admires Jacinda Ardern of NZ (my PM I’m also a Kiwi) would not have made that mistake. Instead she charmed Winston Peters, a former National (Tory) Party MP & serial National coalition partner into supporting her Labour govt instead. He’s foreign minister. Inside the tent pissing out.

The problem is she was piqued by the loss of the serendipitous majority because the SNP vote had gone UP significantly (causing them to move that sweet spot). A cause for celebration but she is again too naive a political operator.

As we also see with the revelation that she is deeply implicated in the reformation of rules bringing former ministers under the Holyrood disclplinary procedures, if she did not see the potential for them to hit Alex Salmond she damn well should have done, if she did see it and chose to ignore it then damn her, damn her to all hells for the recklessness if not the malignancy towards Mr Salmond. She is damned either way.

FiferJP

@Auld Rock

Covid-19 hasn’t stopped Black lives Matter. They’ve been quite successful with their campaign during a pandemic.

Me Bungo Pony

Wow, so many people to reply to! Here goes.

@Dan
I talk to people at work about mundane stuff such as the shed because that is what people are interested in. One of the lass’s in the lab just had a new lawn lain. We were all interested in that and very nice it looks too. This will be the Pop-Ups biggest problem. The vast majority of people just aren’t as obsessed with politics as they really need them to be in order to be a success.

As to talking about politics with them. After 35 years of being “the SNP guy” in the lab, none are in any doubt about my politics. They get a free copy of “The National” every day and, if the subject comes up, I will wax lyrical on the benefits of independence for all willing to listen. To foist my views on them would be counter productive. 35 years ago, I was “the only Indy in the lab” (sic). Now I’m just one of many. Guess how many of them are talking about the ISP? I’ll give you a clue. It’s less than 1.

Did the sills turn out okay?

@transfer
“So why are you here and why are you worried ?”

As I’ve repeatedly said, this madness may garner just enough List votes to deprive the SNP and independence of a majority on Holyrood. History and logistics point to a damp squib but if they take even 1-2% off the SNP vote …. it could be disastrous.

@McDuff
“Explain how Indy is “within our grasp” when you have a leader who is overwhelmed with indifference towards Indy. Six years since the referendum and we are up just two points since then. So tell me what has the SNP been doing to secure our freedom. The plan?”

(1) We have sustained momentum with Indy now the majority view in the country and the SNP on 55% of the vote.

(2) No she isn’t.

(3) Indy is up 9pts since 2014, the SNP is up about 16pts in 18 months.

(4) Two things; never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake; never tell your enemy your plan beforehand. Both these things should be obvious to people but, blind to reality, they just demand the undeliverable.

schrodingers cat

Muscleguy says:
The ISP are expressly not an anti SNP party,
———–

really?? you jest right?

kestral

Can I make a point here – SNP may not be talking about the GRA, but we woman are, I have talked to many woman in my work about this. Given that the SNP have struggled to win the woman vote in the past and given the overwhelming rejection by woman – ie 80/85% for male bodied people in changing rooms, can someone tell me when the FM will be making the statement that they are dropping GRA reforms, or do they not mind loosing woman voters? its not exactly a voting winning policy

Breeks

Me Bungo Pony says:
19 July, 2020 at 12:02 pm

. Yet we are to believe they have “failed”; that they are a “busted flush”. It’s nuts.

No, it isn’t.

The poll in my opinion reflects the reality of an out-of-control British Tory Government making a total screw-up of everything it touches, and making the whole UK an international laughing stock. We’ve got Boris Johnson to thank. He’s done more for Scottish Independence than even Thatcher did. The SNP have contributed nothing to the Brexit the narrative, have sat in the passenger seat plotting muck to throw at Alex Salmond while important events have moved all around them, and the 54% in the polls backing Indy in my opinion reflects where we’d be standing if we had a crash test dummy in the roll of First Minister.

Heaven alone knows where we’d be in the polls if we’d had a Constitutionally literate First Minister who actually engaged with the much desired defeat of Brexit rather than its pathetic and humiliating amelioration… not to mention thoroughly catastrophic Constitutional capitulation and undermining of Scottish sovereignty.

There are times I need to take a reality pill to look back over the last five years of the bleakest most uninspiring Leadership and reconcile that with the hunger for Independence which Scotland demonstrated after 2014, when the SNP was dominant in every election it contested, riding the crest of Scotland’s political awakening and desire for Independence. Nicola Sturgeon had everything given to her on a plate, and as a cherry to top it all, a Brexit mandate we couldn’t have imagined in our wildest dreams. But what happens? Nothing. The SNP take it upon themselves to stop talking about Independence and hand Westminster a free reign to carve up Scotland’s European interests.

Nicola Sturgeon literally gave Theresa May the green light to pursue any Brexit deal she liked, by telling her she wouldn’t face the rebellion of a Scottish Indy referendum until Sturgeon knew the details of Brexit. The biggest constitutional lever which Scotland had in it’s arsenal, and instead of breaking the back of the Union on a Constitutional Backstop, Scotland’s Ace Negotiator First Minister renders Scotland’s rock solid anti-Brexit mandate irrelevant, and further yet, gives the UK Prime Minister material incentive to keep the Scottish Government out of the information loop and not party to discussions. Oh my, what Genius!

If Scotland had a fighter for a First Minister, not a drip, the polls right now would be incidental to a UK Union that was already broken and untenable in Constitutional terms, a secure place in Europe being readied for Scotland, and we’d be facing a ratification plebiscite held amongst ourselves with no foreign interference to formalise Scotland’s Sovereign Nation status, rather than some imprecise mealy mouthed Independence Referendum which we’ll only ever see if the UK Government falls down drunk and stands up concussed and irrationally charitable.

We’re at 54% in the polls in spite of an SNP government, not because of it. They’re the reluctant impediment holding us back, but yet demanding all the credit for where we are.

I’ll warn you Bungo Pony, well it’s more of a prophecy than a warning, if the SNP doesn’t buck up it’s ideas and clear out the dross, those 500,000 votes they lost to Theresa May’s snap election will look pretty tame to the electoral battering they’ve got coming, and judging by the SNP’s disgraceful reaction to a pro Independence List Party, the SNP know what’s coming and you can see it in their eyes that they’ll be fighting for SNP List Seats to stave off a total collapse, and the SNP’s legacy under Sturgeon will be Scotland trussed up by the colonial Scotland Act and delivered to the rabid BritNats for our permanent disassembly.

Me Bungo Pony

@muscleguy
“@MeBungoPony
Not seen you here before, wonder why?”

I have posted here before. Not often because of the volume of replies making it largely pointless in my opinion. I’ve just got lucky this weekend because I got in at the start. Mostly posted on Bella and LabourHame with the odd post on sundry other sites. Not a pro like yourself 😉

Chris

If it isn’t obvious by now to those seeking Scottish Independence that Sturgeon has absolutely no interest in delivering it then what will it take for those people to wake up? She has now come right out and said it. Nobody with Independence DNA in their body would ever centralise anything and that is the point at which people should have noticed that Sturgeon is on a mission for power and not to make Scotland Independent.

schrodingers cat

@breeks
Heaven alone knows where we’d be in the polls if we’d had a Constitutionally literate First Minister who actually engaged with the much desired defeat of Brexit
——————-
actually we do, we went into the 2017 ge on a mandate expressly opposed to brexit… we got 38% of the vote

your post pretty much sums up everyones contribution on here

“wont somebody else do something, anything”

the predictions of peak nat are somewhat lame

schrodingers cat

@breeks
I’ll warn you Bungo Pony, well it’s more of a prophecy than a warning
—————

ha ha ha ha ha ha

the words of the prophet breeks are not written on a subway wall but on a wings thread btl

who would have thunk it

lol

Lisa Scott

Delusional nonsense written by someone who seems to spend his whole life spinning. He should work for the bbc. Currently saying that Colette Walker didn’t receive a penny for readings she did. She was a reiki healer for 9 years. There are reviews on her angel page. Of course she was paid. Maybe if people started telling the TRUTH about the basic things the ISP might be taken a tad more seriously

Stop trying to make ISP happen. It won’t. Not with this bunch of goons at the helm

Effijy

More on Handcock claiming Covid deaths in England are lower than suggested.

Is he claiming they are not the worst National figures on the plant and you are
Only 4 times more likely to die from the Virus in England as opposed to Germany?

Currently the difference is 5 fold.

Now there is a stat to show how great England is.

Contrary

If the ISP have an economic policy for an independent Scotland that realises and understands MMT, then any candidate in my region (Glasgow) will get my support and vote. Otherwise, they will just maybe get my vote.

Bob Mack

@SC,

I don’t think anybody is doing nothing. Many are starting their action by coalescing around a second Indy Party for the list vote at this time. Who knows what the future may bring?

That,I humbly suggest, will be up to the SNP

robbo

schrodingers cat says:
19 July, 2020 at 1:24 pm
@breeks
I’ll warn you Bungo Pony, well it’s more of a prophecy than a warning
—————

ha ha ha ha ha ha

the words of the prophet breeks are not written on a subway wall but on a wings thread btl

who would have thunk it

lol

Ha made me chuckle and reminded me of the best cover of a song of all time.

Warning: You’ll be hooked and on youtube all day listing to this on repeat.

link to youtube.com

Liz g

Shrodingers Cat @ 1.22
Somebody is doing something though…
The Rev and Gavin Barrie posted the directions and the ISP are trying to plough the road.
If ye’ve a better plan to clear the British from our parliament….. the British mind ye not the SNP…. tell us all what action your takin?
Because that “won’t someone do something” mantra is looking right back at ye otherwise!

Robert graham

Aye well done Bungo toss in a wee grenade and stand back job done ,

Back to reality I am a SNP member and have voted in every National ,Council ,European election I can’t remember how many years it’s defiantly since the 60s when Winnie Ewing took Hamilton.

I wonder if any other members can relate to my experience of contact with the Party , My first was when Tommy Sheppard was running for the deputy leadership position, anyway I was unable to cast a vote and I contacted Tommy to find out what happened and how it could be avoided in future votes , I got a reply weeks after more or less saying get over it it’s done live with it .

The second time I asked my MP also SNP what was being done about control of the border , the reply was after him checking my name address and membership number was and I kid you not , his reply was a link to the Daily Record , aye the VOW came to mind and he sent me a link f/k ? .

Not impressed with either response and I wonder if this is a common experience of members or just a isolated incident in both cases ,

Not knocking the system in place for engaging the membership just wondering if it’s a one off .

One_Scot

Genuine question for those more knowledgeable than myself on the workings of the Scottish voting system.

If there is to be another Independence party looking for list votes, would it be better if there was only one party rather than say three to maximize the number of MSPs to be returned to Holyrood, or would it just be the same number of MSPs split over three parties?

schrodingers cat

Bob Mack says:
I don’t think anybody is doing nothing. Many are starting their action by coalescing around a second Indy Party for the list vote at this time.
————–
good, i’ve been calling for the same since 2014.

however, even with a super majority, no one, NO ONE, has actually said what they would do with it? what super powers would it have more than the snp? prophets not withstanding?

the only person to actually put forward a single suggestion here is ian brotherhood

Dan
Liz g

One-Scot @ 1.50
Better if there was only one that we could all get behind Scot.

Liz g

Shrodingers Cat @ 1.55
If have thought it was obvious what they’d do!
Independence never allowed to be off the table no matter what else goes on..

Dan

@s.cat at 1:55 pm

What would a super majority do… that’s a chicken and egg situation really.

I’ll throw this in the mix:
If all the Pro-Indy Parties stated in their respective manifestos that in the event of a majority of constituency seats won by Pro-Indy Parties, backed up with a majority of vote share expressed for all Pro-Indy Parties standing on the Regional Lists (doesn’t matter about actual List Seats won), then that is a democratic mandate and instruction from the sovereign Scottish people to end the Union.

Kenny

Very well written article!

Re RISE: they did good work in getting the vote out in Glasgow and Dundee. Without that, there would not have been 45%. Thanks to RISE, our largest city voted not to be in the UK.

I believe that democracy is never a bad thing. Anyone wishing to stop people forming parties, people voting, the democratic process in general, is very wrong. Please note SNP, in your attempts to shut down debate.

Breeks

Knew you guys were Simon and Garfunkel types, but The Boxer is a better tune for you guys, with the SNP supplying the lyrics.

I have squandered my resistance
For a pocketful of mumbles,
Such are promises
All lies and jest
Still, a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest.

McDuff

MBP 1.06
One week before the referendume Yes was in the lead on 52% hence the panic culminating in the Vow which was relentlessly blasted into living rooms resulting in the drop to 45%.
Why wouldn’t you know that???

Ian Brotherhood

Haven’t had time to read all of the comments so far but quite a few have mentioned RISE as an example of how this whole ISP could go Pete Tong.

It should be remembered that RISE is an acronym. It stands for Respect, Independence, Socialism, Environmentalism.

link to en.wikipedia.org

ISP stands for Independence for Scotland Party.

Doesn’t take a genius to work out that the latter will appeal to many more than the former, especially those who baulk at the mere mention of the word ‘socialism’.

Indy-supporting Tories and Lib-Dems may be thin on the ground but it’s not inconceivable that they’d vote for ISP – that may be difficult for some Yessers to thole but the fact remains that those people are entitled to cast their vote same as anyone else, and if their ultimate goal is the same, so be it. We can ill-afford to look down our noses at anyone the same way the SNP diehards are currently viewing many of us.

Independence supporters who hold different views from the SNP are not second class Yessers.

Hear hear hear to that David.

😉

Michael Laing

Mr Hooks’ article is very well-written, clear and concise. I’d have been much happier if the SNP had taken any meaningful action to further the cause of independence between 2014 and now, and I fear that the setting up of a list-only party/parties will gift the unionist media and politicians an excuse to claim the movement for independence is divided and in turmoil, but I think this is the best option we have to break the present log-jam. I will be voting for the SNP with gritted teeth, and for the best-placed pro-independence, non-SNP list party.

MightyS

I too, spent decades donating to and supporting the SNP, back in the days when they were the joke ‘Tartan Tories’ and we thought 6 MP’s in WM was encouraging.
I too have seen the SNP mutate into an almost unrecognisable animal that is happy to stay in devolution, all the while assuring their voters how hard they’re fighting for Scotland.
I too, want independence in my lifetime, cos I think my Grandbairns will have emigrated or been exiled/jailed thanks to the Hate Crime Bill.
I too realise there is a pandemic on – but if other governments can work on and produce domestic policy during the Covid crisis, I just don’t see why ours can’t.
I too can’t understand why the SNP have allowed such a violent, abusive TransGender group to trash and burn every female vote the SNP had gained over the past 40 yrs.
At this point, with no dedicated Yes Leader to follow, my constitutional vote is a huge question mark, but I’ll certainly be voting for the ISP for my list vote, should HR2021 happen.

schrodingers cat

@robert graham

should your snp mp have lain in the road to close the border?

what do you suggest?

McDuff

SC 12.30
The VOW was introduced because a week before the referendum Yes was in tha lead on 52%. Because of the intense media pressure promoting the VOW the indy vote fell to 45%. So Indy WAS on 52% meaning we are up just two points in six years.

Beaker

Important anniversary today (or near enough).

Boris has been PM for a year. That means if the Tory Party want to topple him then they can do so under their rules (I think). Question is; are there enough MPs who realise what a stupid mistake they made last year?

And today’s conundrum:

There’s a shop I passed out walking today, and it sells face masks with just about any design you can think of.

But you need to wear a mask to go into the shop.

It’s confusing a lot of people in Rutherglen…

Col.Blimp IV

Dan : at 2:19 pm (

Until all concerned realise that, we will be stuck in a depressing re-run of “The Life of Brian”. The SNP seem unaware that it is they who are the “splitters” by masquerading as a broad church but pushing an ever narrowing agenda.

schrodingers cat

@mcduff

the only poll showing yes in a lead
sample yes no dk
11 Sep ICM 705 49% 42% 9%

all the rest had yes at 42-47%. the above is considered an out lier maybe cos the sample size is too low, but an out lier none the less

@breeks
a prophet who can box, might come in useful

schrodingers cat

@mcduff

the only reason indy is believed to be at 54% is because we have had 2 polls in a row confirming it

schrodingers cat

Dan says:
I’ll throw this in the mix:
——————

what a great idea, wish i’d thought of that 🙂

Mungo Armstrong

Me Bungo, all I read from you is what a terrible idea this is but no solution? The SNP are not interested in independence any time soon. I want independence, so why would I vote to strengthen a party that don’t offer what I want?

Brian Doonthetoon

Hi Kenny at 2:22 pm.

You typed,
“Re RISE: they did good work in getting the vote out in Glasgow and Dundee. Without that, there would not have been 45%. Thanks to RISE, our largest city voted not to be in the UK.”

RISE didn’t exist prior to Indyref 2014.
You probably mean “RIC” (Radical Independence Campaign), who did a lot of canvassing and vote registration in Glasgow and Dundee.

Dan

@s.cat

Yeah, you’ve invented absolute everything mate. We get it, the smartphones and laptops and internet we’re typing on was probably down to you, my underpants were probably designed by you, the loaf of bread I am making might be using my ingredients, and my hands to knead the dough, but in reality that’s actually only because you control me too.

I hadn’t previously seen you state the pooling of all pro-indy votes cast on the regional list, including all parties or individuals accrued counting, rather than seats won. But that was probably only because you decided I shouldn’t think that way… 🙂

robbo

Breeks says:
19 July, 2020 at 2:23 pm
Knew you guys were Simon and Garfunkel types,

——-

Don’t give us it breeks. lol. I bet you listened to that disturbed version more than one already! ha ha

link to youtube.com

schrodingers cat

@liz g

some of us are trying to convince folk to vote tactically. that’ll be me you refer to?

you miss the point about the lack of action by the snp.

eg, bojo refuses s30,

what can the snp and the isp actually do?

yes we can take legal action but i dont hold out much hope for justice from the supreme court, so i ask again,

what can the snp and the isp actually do?

answer, very little, we dont have the power, westminster does, that is also true for the isp.

we have one chance left,

that is to gain a 50%+ snp vote on the constituency vote

getting indy list msps to replace unionists is a nice to have but the 50%+ snpindy vote is the end game.

lets face it, if bojo still says no then arguing about tactical voting will become irrelevant.

why, cos voting will also become irrelevant. full stop

schrodingers cat

Liz g says:
Independence never allowed to be off the table no matter what else goes on.
—————

if we get a 50%+ snpindy result in the constituency and bojo still says no

there wont be a table !

Robert graham

Cat @ 2-31
what would I suggest ? Ok smart arse what would you suggest ? , I was asking my MP what plans were in place or were being considered on medical grounds regarding the border crossings , I wasn’t expecting a link to the Daily Record do you think that was a reasonable reply from a SNP MP if it is your very easily satisfied .
You have a nice day now , I am watching a movie on Netflix so don’t be offended if I don’t continue our sparkling discussion .

Dan

schrodingers cat says: at 3:00 pm

…what can the snp and the isp actually do?

…we have one chance left,

…that is to gain a 50%+ snp vote on the constituency vote

Why are you suggesting restricting the pro-indy voting options to just the constituency vote element and the SNP?
You just said you previously suggested what I had stated, but this ^^^ isn’t the same. Why the change?
Is da cat dizzy from huffin’ on da catnip? 🙂

stuart mctavish

Neil Anderson @12,52
One way might be to encourage Greens to coordinate/join a leftwing alliance, create a rightwing one in parallel and encourage SNP voters to choose either one for their second vote.
Net additional independence parties on the list = 1

MBP @1,05
Will be following the advice implied your nice shed analogy and forgetting about things that are none of my business shortly but humbly suggest that such nonsense occasionally deserves closer attention, eg by substituting the word “electorate” for “enemy” in your fourth point, the case for a new indy party makes itself.

Beaker @11,43
As a fan of harsh realities you may wish to ponder the scenario in which Brexit makes a useful ally for independence only once remainers are converted or purged, factor in that the world has been stopped for 6 months for want of this year’s flu vaccine, and consider the possibility that the latter form of repression is no longer such an impossible proposition as it may once have appeared.

SC@1,55
Big majority is happening come what may (comment to Beaker notwithstanding) so, to paraphrase the Walter Scott Quote, a supermajority will protect the generals from undue influence whilst allowing an early start on future governance by those keen to make a positive contribution

Au revoir & Good Luck!

Republicofscotland

“what can the snp and the isp actually do?”

Schodingers Cat.

Don’t throw it onto the ISP, its the SNP that’s been in and still is in government and as Dave Hooks clearly pointed out Sturgeon has done nothing, zero, nil, nada on the independence front, at a time when Westminster has been in turmoil over Brexit etc. Infact other independence parties at Holyrood wouldn’t even be coming into existence if Sturgeon had struck whilst the iron was hot.

Instead Dave points out emphatically that Sturgeon meekly kowtowed to Westminster when told now is not the time. I’m not blaming the entire SNP party heirarchy for the open goal that’s been missed, or a more realistic term would be Sturgeon kicking the ball into the long grass.

Yes we need the SNP to help deliver independence, and it looks like there’s not much of an alternative, however, is Sturgeon the person that looks most likely to deliver it, on her present form that looks very unlikely indeed.

schrodingers cat

Dan says:
Why are you suggesting restricting the pro-indy voting options to just the constituency vote element and the SNP?
————–

because, as far as i’m aware, none of the new indy list parties has any intention of standing candidates in any constituency???

whats your point?

schrodingers cat

Republicofscotland says:
Don’t throw it onto the ISP, its the SNP that’s been in and still is in government and as Dave Hooks clearly pointed out Sturgeon has done nothing, zero, nil, nada on the independence front,

————–

i put it to you that the snp have done everything they could do within the constraints of the devolved government.
what else can they do?

you need more than 45% support of the population to win a revolution….

Cuilean

I have always adopted the SNP ‘belt & braces’ approach and voted SNP/SNP.

However, two things have changed my mind on that perceived wisdom:

1. I am sufficiently convinced that that policy is flawed & more likely than not to maximise the plethora of Britnat parties. If that was not the case, why are Britnats so enraged at the ‘Alliance For Independence’ party?

2.Oh how I wish the SNP leadership was as focused on independence as it is on creating less safe private spaces, (prisons, refuges, centres) and public spaces (schools, retail spaces, public pools, theatres) for more than half the population. The tail is wagging the dog.

A second independence party will keep the SNP honest; focus its attention on what its voters want and not what the cabal want.

That party or alliance will get my second vote without question. It will also end the Britnats tired old propaganda trope that Scotland is a ‘one party state’ and allow the old timer Labour voters in Scotland who ‘just hate the SNP’ to vote against the SNP twice.

To say I am ‘cheating’ if I don’t vote entirely as I wish (and the Electoral Commission allow), only convinces me that I correct to adopt these voting intentions.

Neil Mackenzie

“We are not ignorant of international law”

Are we not? It is my very strong impression that everyone is ignorant of international law and, specifically, that the UK government has broken it. Westminster hasn’t just infringed or skirted or bent international law.

Boris has held up the opening paragraphs of the United Nations Charter which enshrine the universal right of self-determination – to freely choose international status without interference – and burned it to ash in front of our faces. The reaction to that by the vast and overwhelming majority of press, politicians and both pro and anti-independence commentators alike has been one of astonishing ignorance. It’s like they don’t know what actual legal rights are and do not understand that when the UK Prime Minister denies us legal right it is not a legitimate action.

If that’s not ignorance, I don’t know what is.

Dan

schrodingers cat says: at 3:16 pm

because, as far as i’m aware, none of the new indy list parties has any intention of standing candidates in any constituency???

whats your point?

So you are restricting the demographic options for folk to express their will by denying those that want Indy but have been cast adrift from the SNP because of the Party’s choice of policies they are pursuing.
51% of Scots are woman, many have concerns over SelfID, many liberal minded folk will not be fans of the proposed Hate Speech Bill, approximately 30% of Labour supporters in Scotland want Indy.
Stop serving shite drinks in your pub if you want folk to continue to drink in your pub.

Dan

grr spellcheck…”democratic options”…

Republicofscotland

“As I’ve repeatedly said, this madness may garner just enough List votes to deprive the SNP and independence of a majority on Holyrood. History and logistics point to a damp squib but if they take even 1-2% off the SNP vote …. it could be disastrous.”

Me Bungo.

How do you work that one out, list votes given to independence parties are still votes for independence. I mean what’s the point of giving the SNP one million list votes and in return getting say four SNP list seats, but a pethlora of unionists seats as well into the bargain.

At worst the SNP loses a few seats, at best, and here’s the good bit, the SNP would need to work with the other independence parties if a majority was required, and in return they’d need to agree to hold a indyref hopefully. Secondly we’d remove unionist bums from seats such as say Annie Wells or Murdo Fraser.

It’s not cheating or gaming the system.

schrodingers cat

i smell fear
article today from the spectator

The greatest single danger to this government is the state of the Union. Prime ministers can survive many things, but not the break-up of the country they lead.

No. 10 has a plan to avoid this: it simply won’t allow a Scottish independence referendum this parliament. No legal referendum can take place without Westminster’s consent and it will be declined on the grounds that a generation has not elapsed since the ‘once in a generation vote’ in 2014.

This approach, however, cannot change the fact that the Union is now in even graver danger than it was during that campaign. In recent weeks, the polls have consistently shown independence ahead. Scottish Unionists are downhearted. When I asked one of the most impressive figures from 2014 how things were going, the answer came simply: ‘It’s over. The horse has bolted.’

Such pessimism might be an over-reaction to bad polls, but it is worrying how convinced some Unionists are that any second referendum would be lost. Downing Street’s refusal to grant one in this parliament could come under immense pressure after the Scottish parliament elections next year. If the Scottish National party wins an outright majority on a pro-IndyRef 2 platform, it will be hard to reject a request from Holyrood for another vote. A generation might not have elapsed, but an awful lot has happened in the past six years.

It would be particularly difficult to reject such a request if the Scottish Tories had spent the campaign urging people to vote for them to stop a second independence referendum. When I put this point to one secretary of state, the instant reply was: ‘Well, they must be told not to do that.’

Other senior Tories share this sentiment. There is a growing view in London that the best way to avoid a Catalonia-style situation is for the Scottish Tories to be encouraged to campaign on domestic issues so that the UK government can credibly say the Holyrood elections weren’t about whether or not to have a second referendum. One Boris Johnson ally who will play an important role in discussions with the Scottish party tells me ‘It would be a folly to make it about the Union’ and that the campaign is a ‘great opportunity to shine a light on the fact that they’ve failed on education. Not enough is made of their failures in domestic policy’. In a sign of how seriously the Tories are taking the issue, Isaac Levido — who ran the Conservatives’ successful general election effort last year — has been carrying out work on what arguments would work best in Scotland.

The obvious problem with this approach is that the constitution has been the Scottish Tories’ strongest card in recent years. Their revival was based not just on Ruth Davidson’s energetic leadership but on their position as the most unambiguously Unionist party. Jackson Carlaw, the new leader of the Scottish Tories, has little of Davidson’s panache. A campaign led by him in which the Scottish Tories unilaterally disarmed on the constitutional question would not end well for the party. But according to colleagues, Carlaw is also much more inclined to listen to London than Davidson, who was keen to plough her own furrow. So, if Conservative Campaign Headquarters requests that he downplays the prospect of a referendum, he is unlikely to reject the request outright.

Influential Scottish Tories fear that repeatedly saying a referendum won’t happen could end up ‘derisking’ the prospect of another SNP government and so could lead to an increased vote for the Nationalists. But one possible compromise is a campaign based around ‘priorities’, making the case that even though Westminster won’t grant a referendum an SNP administration would spend its time agitating for one rather than attending to the many matters that are actually devolved to Holyrood.

But whatever the Scottish Tories say in the campaign, it will be hard to refuse to engage on the issue of a referendum if the SNP wins an outright majority. The SNP will be able to frame this as London denying Scotland the choice that it voted for.

One of the few consolations for Unionists at the moment is that proper attention is now being paid to the issue in both Westminster and Whitehall. This is as welcome as it is overdue. Many of the problems in the management of the Covid crisis have been caused by Whitehall not properly understanding what is devolved, and what is not. For example, Downing Street failed to appreciate that a quarantine for those arriving in the UK couldn’t simply be put in place by Westminster. Instead, it would have to be agreed by the devolved administrations as it was being done under a health regulation, and that is a devolved matter.

The pandemic has served to highlight just how many things are now devolved. The sense that the Scottish government has used its powers well during this crisis, a sense that isn’t entirely borne out by the facts, has boosted voters’ confidence that Scotland can do things differently — and better — than the rest of the UK. But what this misses is how an independent Scotland would not have been able to muster anywhere near the same economic response as the UK government has done. In the early years of independence at least, it wouldn’t have had its own currency and central bank — which would have severely restricted its options.

The next skirmish between Westminster and Holyrood will be over the internal market bill. The SNP will claim that the UK government is attempting a power grab; they know that if they can make it Nicola’s government versus Boris’s they can win that argument in Scotland’s court of public opinion. In fact, the bill is a sensible measure about ensuring that Scottish doctors can still work in England and vice versa after Brexit and other such things, but the UK government has failed to properly make this argument. One exasperated Scottish Tory complains of a ‘sheer lack of attention. We don’t roll the pitch’.

Devolution was meant to kill nationalism stone dead. On that basis the current settlement has clearly failed. Yet, however much of a mistake it may have been, it is hard to see how it is politically feasible to roll it back. It might well be time for the UK government to start thinking about whether a federal model could best keep the United Kingdom together.

WRITTEN BY
James Forsyth Political Editor of the Spectator.

schrodingers cat

Dan says:

So you are restricting the demographic options for folk to express their will by denying those that want Indy but have been cast adrift from the SNP because of the Party’s choice of policies they are pursuing.
—————–

they can vote for a new indy list party on the list. however, how can i be accused of restricting the demographic options of folk to vote how they wish on the constituency vote when all the new indy list parties have stated quite clearly that they wont stand candidates in constituencies????

you’re not making much sense dan, or should that be loretta?

Ottomanboi

Independence movements have generally been minority movements that is of minority seeing an alternative to the enforced, repressive and stultifying status quo.
Scots and Irish created Unionism. It is not a natural state for your average English person who is happy to consider these islands off north west Europe a species of Greater England acquired by right of historic annexation. Union treaty? Bollocks to you Jock.
The nations within those islands are handy UK plc tourist attractions roughly on a par with Cornwall or Yorkshire that prior to annexation had zilch going for them. They didn’t even speeka da English, for God’s sake.
For the 300+years of the British state’s existence England’s has been the driving culture. I regularly read things like England in WW2, England’s imperial reach, England’s diplomatic prowess, England’s colonial legacy etc. In century 21 it still appears in the literature, even “for England James” as a character in a Bond movie proclaimed.
We have enough data about what we are dealing with, the failure to act on it looks rather pathetic.
Almost as if we enjoyed the sado-masochistic relationship.
At some point soon we’ve got to quit this house of bondage.

On a Covid theme. How to make something out of nothing in Nigeria. Population 203 million. cases 36k.
link to dailypost.ng
Powermania is a terrible disease.

Republicofscotland

“i put it to you that the snp have done everything they could do within the constraints of the devolved government.
what else can they do?

you need more than 45% support of the population to win a revolution….”

Schodingers Cat.

I’ll take your second point first, you know fine well as many others in here do, that once a indyref date is announced, that, that figure almost always tends to rise, a five or six percent jump, possibly more isn’t outwith the realms of possibility, especially since Westminster has been in turmoil over Brexit for years. How did Sturgeon capitalise on this, she didn’t, she stayed tacit on independence.

As for your first point refer to my above paragraph,and Sturgeon could’ve publicly appealed to the International community that Westminster was/is denying our sovereign right, as a nation in a union not a region, to democratically decide whether we want to remain in this union or not, as the circumstances of the union have changed dramatically since 2014.

Actually doing something is vastly different to be seen to be doing something, Sturgeon falls into the latter.

Finally ask yourself this, what would Alex Salmond have done if he were in Sturgeons shoes, since the Brexit debacle began.

Dogbiscuit

Hey Bungle away and play with Zippy.

Margaret Lindsay

Great article David.

callmedave

Today’s figures:

Scotland……today…….00……..Total…..2491….BBC
Wales………today…….01……..Total…..1547….BBC
N. Ireland….don’t report weekends.Total……556..(Friday)
England…….today……*08……..Total…*29181..*SUN

WM Gov have ceased reporting UK Total corona virus deaths.

Only 1 death in Scotland in the last 11 days.

george wood

Using the Holyrood election as a de facto Independence vote is a non-starter, whether you look at the whole vote or the constituency vote only.
The unionists and the press would not be stupid enough to treat it as such and make the election about the SNP’s record in government, rendering the result unclear.
You would not get the numbers voting to make it a serious plebiscite.

All we need is an Independence supporting majority at Holyrood – obviously we don’t have that at the moment. They call for a S30 and that will get refused.They call a referendum regardless, which we win and declare Independence.

The current SNP leadership won’t go for it, so we need to vote SNP1 Independence party2 and hope we get enough SNP MSPs in the constituencies who actually want Independence elected. Hopefully they will defy the SNP leadership and help the push to Independence.

Republicofscotland

If this isn’t an indication that Sturgeon should be getting her skates on with regards to independence, I do don’t know what is.

link to thenational.scot

CameronB Brodie

I’d suggest SNP loyalists should not look to claim the moral high-ground, until the SNP finds a way of respecting the rule-of-law, rather than undermining it through inaction and crap legislation.

schrodingers cat

@ros

im not convinced about the argument of campaigning increases support, the snp got 45% of constituency vote in 2011, once the polls dropped the option of devo max and started asking only yes/no, the polls waivered between 42-48% the result being 45%. within the accuracy of all polls.

as to appealing to international opinion? in 2017, we got 38%, not really a platform for such appeals. as to international opinion, i can assure you that Nicola will have been told exactly what she can expect as an answer from the eu and elsewhere.

it is quite clear she is now deliberately refusing to be drawn into questions on any other subject than covid 19. as many on here have pointed out that while she carries on in this manner, there is no reason why others in the sg cant. i also believe this is a deliberate tactic.

its driving the unionist msm nuts, they cant lay a finger on her. 🙂

but this situation cant/wont last forever, i think that this phoney war will be over by the end of august

Dogbiscuit

If the writer finds himself in Holyrood he will have to adopt a position on various policies.
ISP is a good Idea but I suspect you’ll need to have views on other issues to perhaps enhance the attraction to a new party.Calm reasonable rational views on the irrationality of the currrnt debated or lack of in Holyrood.
Bungle I don’t have Tourette’s I just think you’re a radge.

schrodingers cat

@ros

bojo’s world tour of scotland??

bring it on, interesting to see which secluded hut in the forest he will visit

bring it on 🙂

Dan

@s.cat

Read my 3.11pm post again. You state the one option left is 50%+ SNP vote on the constituency.
I asked why restrict it to only the Constituency and SNP vote, and not include the pro-indy will expressed on the Regional List by people that just cannot bring themselves to vote SNP.
Including both Constituency and Regional List aspects is the better and fuller democratic expression of the electorate’s will, and thus a more useful tool to have in the bank for whatever unfolds next.

link to wingsoverscotland.com

CameronB Brodie

Want to unederstand just how badly the leadership stubbornness and blinkered approach to the law is screwing Scotland? Submitting to authoritarian English Torydum doesn’t just sacrifice Scotland’s legal identity, it harms the international fabric of law and order.

UCLA Public Law & Legal Theory Series
Human Rights and Rule of Law: What’s The Relationship

link to escholarship.org

schrodingers cat

from the hootsman

“Mr Johnson’s handling of the coronavirus pandemic has also cost him support, with his net approval rating on the crisis lagging 99% behind that of Nicola Sturgeon.

This week he denied his personal standing was a threat to Union. But a Cabinet source told the Sunday Times: “Michael [Gove] is in panic mode about the Union and Boris is in irritated mode.”

CameronB Brodie

So I suggest true believers in indy should perhaps encourage the SNP’s leadership to start respecting international law rather than Westminster’s diktat.

Rule of Law, Justice, Security and Human Rights
https://www.undp.org/content/undp/en/home/2030-agenda-for-sustainable-development/peace/rule-of-law–justice–security-and-human-rights.html

Beaker

@Republicofscotland says:
19 July, 2020 at 3:52 pm

Boris on tour?

Will he be visiting Kilmacolm?

kapelmeister

What stirring leadership Sturgeon shows. Publicly apologising for the word National in Scottish National Party. A bonny fechter indeed!

Then there’s the Wishart man who dreams of being Father of the House of Commons.

Ah…that we in the independence movement get to walk beside such giants………..well, we would if the pair believed in turning up at indy walks.

Republicofscotland

Schrodingers Cat.

In the 1970s, Australian PM Gough Whitlam, was popular as PM having been elected for a second term to office.

As Australian PM he drafted the first Aboriginal land rights legislation, he added to this equal pay for women and free university education, and support for the arts, all of it became law.

However unknowns to Whitlam, his own countries security services, held a file on him calling him dangerous, they were also spying on his government for the British and Americans as well.

When Whitlam challenged this the Queens man in Australia Sir John Kerr, summoned the democratically elected PM to his office in Canberra, and sacked him on the spot, invoking some archaic Westminster reserved powers.

I do hope Sturgeon, hasn’t put, or finds herself in this position’ if or when the time comes that she decides to push for independence.

Republicofscotland

“Boris on tour?

Will he be visiting Kilmacolm?”

Schrodingers Cat.

I don’t really care which closed shop Johnson visits, its the media attention that it stirs up, against Scottish independence, followed by the lies, that some might buy into, though in fairness many folk are now savvy to the machinations of the unionist media.

schrodingers cat

@ros

nicola is already in this position, so was alex.

unfortunately, westminster could shut down holyrood tomorrow.

i think we are approaching the end game

the best we can do is to win a 50%+ majority before it hits the fan

regardless of what we do next, legal, appeal to the un eu etc. it will have more success if we have a 50%+ plebiscite in our hand

Joe

@Kestral 1:09pm

I would simply love for it to be women to politically crush the SNP and their BS over the GRA and hate speech nonsense.

Especially after years of nauseatingly appealing to the female vote with pseudo feminist BS and pandering.

That would be a massive victory for Scottish women and a just outcome for a party of sick, lying, bought-off hypocrites.

Mon’ the ladies.

CameronB Brodie

I think a constitutional backstop is the best Scotland can hope for before the end of the year, but there appears to be a lack of legal knowledge where it counts.

PROMOTING HUMAN RIGHTS – GOOD GOVERNANCE,
THE RULE OF LAW AND DEMOCRACY
PACIFIC JUDICIAL CONFERENCE, VANUATU 26-30 JULY 2005, The Hon John von Doussa QC, President,
Australian Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission

link to humanrights.gov.au

schrodingers cat

@ros

great photo op for nicola, she could meet him for a photo op on the steps of bute house in full nbc ppe and offer him an elbow when he tries to shake her hand lol

Scot Finlayson

Seems to me if this was bad for our quest for emancipation why would British Nationalists like Kenny Farquharson be attacking it.

The SNP need a `Night of the Long Knives`, a purge on all the misogynists and their enablers from MPs to backroom staff,

or one day soon the misogynists and their enablers will be too strong and conduct their own purge,(which i think is happening already behind the scenes).

Sensibledave

Dan

I’m guessing that Ms Sturgeon is not confident of Winning an “open fight“ based upon your premise … and is therefore not going to risk losing a proxy “indyref2” at this time (which would then shelve the movement for some considerable time).

schrodingers cat

@sd

and if she does win with 50%+

will that vote supersede the vote in 2014?

Andy Ellis

@SC

Actually, thinking about the Spectator article quoted above, if the yoons had any sense (OK, OK….I know it’s a hostage to fortune, but bear with me for the sake of the argument…..) they should actually call the bluff of the crypto-devolusionists within the SNP and actually make good on the powers promised in the Vow.

Devolution may not kill independence stone dead, but since it is increasingly obvious that the current SNP have no realistic prospect of delivering a referendum in the next 5 (or more likely 10?) years. as a result the prospect of “real home rule” may actually prove attractive to lots of British nationalists in Scotland, convinced Scots unionists and “soft” Yes/Remain voters who are convinced we’ve lost the argument on EU membership so might as well make the best of it in the post Covid world.

Hell, I’d probably vote for it if the only alternative is a fruitless decade of no-marks like Pete Wishart insisting that Boris is going to give in to our humongous mandate any day now.

CameronB Brodie

Sensibledave
You are as welcome as any here, I suppose, but I just wish you’d sort your politics out. You’re position oposes the principle of universal human rights, which I suggest isn’t a good look. Toryboy.

The rule of law and human rights: principles and definitions as elaborated at the Congresses and Conferences held under the auspices of the ICJ, 1955-1966
link to icj.org

link to icj.org

CameronB Brodie

oops.

Guybrush Threepwood

Holding an election or a referendum is possible during a pandemic. South Korea held an election during the height of covid19.

Social distancing and mask wearing is possible for both campaigning and voting.

Polling stations have private booths and campaigning can be done online or even on the doorstep, while maintaining a safe distance.

Covid19 does not mean life grinds to a halt for all eternity. We simply adjust until life returns to normal.

twathater

How dare people on here challenge the SNP’S god given right to govern Scotland , anyone challenging the mantra will be denigrated and abused by the SNP gatekeepers with wee snide YouTube videos or classed as MORONS by the righteous

SC is punting furiously and endlessly HIS version of the SNP1 and indy party2 but still sneaks in his snide comments regarding the ISP just to keep the reader doubting ISP , he also goes on endlessly about calling an EARLY HR election but also admits he has NO POWER to call one and unfortunately for him the sainted one has implied that will not happen

Maybe it’s just me but the endless posts requiring people to tell him EXACTLY how we will get out of this union is maybe just another deflection tactic , maybe as he is such an important member of the SNP should he not be discussing his plans with Nicola and convincing her of his great tactics then come on to the site and inform us what THEY (her and him) have decided we should do . Or are all these comments designed to deflect

Andy Ellis

@ Scot Finlayson

I strongly suspect that ship sailed long since.

Bloviating blow-hards like Peter Bell aside, nobody sane really believes that the SNP supertanker can be turned around now. there is not one scintilla of evidence of those within the party making the slightest difference to the current direction of travel.

Neither branches or members appear to be able to effect change, or even get responses to complaints about the Woko Haram enemy within. The idea that an influx of new members could force change is even more outlandish.

We have to face the fact that the concept of the SNP as the engine of the independence movement is probably a lost cause. The SNP is a reasonably competent devolutionary administration. It has to pay lip service to the ultimate aim of independence, but it has little real appetite (and even less realistic prospect) of actually bringing that aim about in the next decade absent some political earthquake not of its own making.

As I’ve been saying for some time: gradualists gonna gradualise.

Dan

@Sensibledave

But if she did… England might require to deal with a material change in circumstance. Namely changing its underwear coz they shat their pants, as this lady in red reporter demonstrates with her olympic gold medal grade flustering. 😉

link to twitter.com

@Guy Threepwood

And closer to home Poland held two elections very recently during covid.

msean

I don’t care about all the other things,excepting the coronavirus of course,though they are not unimportant.

Independence is what makes other things happen.What I mean by this is that anything the other parliament doesn’t like,it can change.It can change anything it wants,whenever it wants.It can strip any power it feels like,without explanation,if it feels like it. There is no constitution to say they can’t,the constitution is whatever they say it is.This makes any decision made by the Scottish Parliament subject to a whim of another countrys Parliament and therefore a bit pointless.

They love it when we argue amongst ourselves.

Once this is realised,independence will surely follow.
So,focus on independence,anything else is window dressing.

CameronB Brodie

I hope folk appreciate the level of social harm Westminster is prepared to allow English Torydum to inflict on Scotland. Insisting Scotland leave the EU’s jurisdiction, against our democratic choice, in order to satisfy the cultural demands of right-wing, (white), English nationalism, does not suggest Scotland has much of a future in Brexitania. To allow this to proceed now, of all times, indicates Westminster is actually hostile to Scotland’s best interests.

The world has changed, so perhaps it’s about time some changed their way of thinking?

The impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on human rights and the rule of law – Our action
link to coe.int

twathater

BTW David Hooks thank you for your posting it is informative and enlightening

Alex

I thought you weren’t in competition with the SNP? I thought this was all about removing unionists from the opposition benches? How far do we get if the SNP vote crumbles on the constituency vote? Its SNP voters you want the list vote from after all?

I am an SNP member who happens to think a new leadership is now necessary for the SNP to move forward. It sounds like David hooks is a keen on bitching the SNP as he is promoting the ISP on the list. That’s fine I like to have a go myself but you need to win list votes man.

schrodingers cat

@andyellis

i think that boat has sailed, i doubt anyone believes this is an option, certainly the recent power grab is a example of the exact opposite

@twathater

Hi, i said happy birthday to nicola on your part.:)

Me Bungo Pony

I go out for the afternoon and come back to this

Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.

Flower of Scotland

Great piece from David Hooks. As a 56 year activist for the SNP, I’m sick to death of the GRA and Brexit taking up the time of the SNP.

It’s about time that the SNP do what they were voted in office to do, and that is regain Scotland,s Independence.

schrodingers cat

reaction to the couriers front page on how bojo is to visit scotland and save the union

Nicola Sturgeon@NicolaSturgeon·4h
Nice of Boris to send me a birthday pressie Party popper Face with tears of joy

Janey Godley@JaneyGodley·3h
Can’t wait

Pippa Crerar @PippaCrerar·3h
Boris Johnson planning to shore up the Union by visiting Scotland? I’m not convinced this will help.

alexmassie@alexmassie·1h
Well that should do it.

CameronB Brodie

Perhaps someone could arm the FM with this before BoJo blesses us all with his omnipotence. And possibly point out Scots are as entitled to access OUR “right to development”, as any other NATION.

Parliaments, Rule of Law and Human Rights Research Project
link to law.ox.ac.uk

CameronB Brodie

And possibly remind her that HMG has already accepted the principle that nations have a right to self-determination, and that internal law can not be used to bind them (see Kosovo).

EU Human rights, democracy and rule of law: from concepts to practice
Work Package No. 3 – Deliverable No. 2

link to fp7-frame.eu

Me Bungo Pony

To answer some points raised;

@McDuff (1:06)

“One week before the referendume Yes was in the lead on 52% hence the panic culminating in the Vow which was relentlessly blasted into living rooms resulting in the drop to 45%.
Why wouldn’t you know that???”

Well of course, I did know that, but it was only one outlying much publicised poll. Many other polls out at the same time put YES in the high 40s. And in the actual vote we only got 45%. Hypothetical vote shares don’t count.

@Mungo Armstrong (2:49)

“Me Bungo, all I read from you is what a terrible idea this is but no solution? The SNP are not interested in independence any time soon. I want independence, so why would I vote to strengthen a party that don’t offer what I want?”

I have offered a solution. Maximise the SNP vote to actually ensure the maximum number of pro-indy MSPs, thus keeping the momentum of the last year going, instead of risking it all on an Indy version of UKIP. More than anything else, not law nor jiggery pokery on the List vote, it is sustained momentum that will carry us through to independence.

@Stuart McTavish (3:13)

“substituting the word “electorate” for “enemy” in your fourth point, the case for a new indy party makes itself.

Unless you believe the “enemy” will sportingly stick their fingers in their ears while you inform the electorate of your plans, it would be rather counter productive. The ISP can talk all they want about plans they will be in no position to deliver on after the election, but the SNP, who will have to deliver, cannot afford that luxury.

@republicofscotland (3:31)
I wrote;
“History and logistics point to a damp squib but if they take even 1-2% off the SNP vote …. it could be disastrous.”
ros replied;
“How do you work that one out, list votes given to independence parties are still votes for independence”.

Because 1-2% of the List vote will not give ISP any seats in Holyrood but it will probably be just enough to lose the SNP a couple and gift them to unionists.

All of this is so obvious if only people would actually think about it.

CameronB Brodie

Me Bungo Pony
Please accept you need to respect the rule-of-law in order to support democracy. The FM appears to be blind to constitutional and international law, and to believe Westminster still has MORAL legal authority over Scotland. I’m afraid that is the perspective of a British nationalist, and is harmful to the international rule-of-law.

Full text.

IFMSA Policy Document Human Rights, Democracy & the Rule of Law

Proposed by the Team of Officials
Adopted at the IFMSA General Assembly August Meeting 2019, in Taipei, Taiwan.

Policy Statement
Introduction:

Humans, regardless of ethnicity, sex & gender, nationality, religion, occupation and a myriad of identifying characteristics, are entitled to be equal in their rights, freedom and dignity. This is both pivotal and universal to all human beings.

Human Rights, Democracy and the Rule of Law are essential and indivisible concepts that are the vital components that have been devised thus far with an aim of achieving an order of equality and accountability.

It takes an immense understanding of both the positive impacts and the shortcomings of democracy in addition to the relationship between all three components (HR, D & the RoL) in addition to a comprehension of the relationship between various political governance mechanisms and healthcare system design to be able to build the future generation of medical diplomats who are strong advocates of equitable and accessible healthcare.

link to ifmsa.org

schrodingers cat

Because 1-2% of the List vote will not give ISP any seats in Holyrood but it will probably be just enough to lose the SNP a couple and gift them to unionists.
————-

in 7/8 regions 850k snp list votes won the snp one list msp, maree tod

one, uno, un, ein, etc

its a risk to one snp list msp, yes, but nearer the time of the election, we could crowd fund polls to see what traction any party has,

a small risk to the snp but potentially devastating to the unionists. i think it a risk worth taking

[…] July 19, 2020 admin 0 View 0 Comments […]

Dan

Me Bungo Pony says: at 6:56 pm

I have offered a solution…

Hmm, you may have, but our survey found 6 out of 8 regional cats could do better than drinking the Both Votes SNP Kool Aid.
Plus many voters “woke up” to the SNP’s “woking up” when they changed the Party’s ingredients (like Barr’s did with IrnBru) and they were dissatisfied with the new flavour.

Got any Um Bongo? 🙂

Breastplate

Bungo pony,
Surely by your logic, the number of SNP MSPs in next year’s HE is irrelevant as you have already noted it is sustained support for independence that is important.
If Boris would have to be compelled to “let” Scotland have a referendum under those circumstances then surely whoever those MSPs in our very own parliament would surely feel compelled to do so also?

CameronB Brodie

OK, suggesting the FM has the “perspective of a British nationalist” was perhaps not particularly accurate, but I think she feels in her heart that Scotland is somehow subordinate to the principle of Parliamentary sovereignty, and the cultural demands of (white) English Torydum. Why else defer to Westminster rather than international law?

Discussing Human Rights, Rule of Law and the renewed social contract in the COVID-19 reality
link to reliefweb.int

Sensibledave

Dan 5.30

… err, no Dan. I know that you want it to be otherwise and need it to be otherwise, but “England” will be fine whether we are in a Union with Scotland or not. Stop worrying about the “english” and start thinking about why so many Scots find the notion of Independence unattractive. Maybe it’s the thought of nut jobs like you holding the reins?

CameronB Brodie

Perhaps it has something to do with centuries of cultural indoctrination dave? Have you still not found a way to supporting the principles of equality in law and limited government?

Breastplate

Sensibledave,
Those Scots you speak of, have an unhealthy emotional attachment to the Union which is bad for them the same way someone smokes 40 cigarettes a day.
They need help to break their addiction to an emotional crutch.

Rick H Johnston

I never thought RISE were a credible political force last time.
I suspect they were a set-up job to try to siphon support from the SNP.
A United new indy list party can work to increase YES MSPs but not if there are 3 or 4 such parties on the ballot.
London wants the Scots divided against themselves. Beware. London’s hand in this.

Rm

The problem with university graduates who go into politics is they’ve been educated by the British establishment and go by their rules, good politicians will think outside the box and be able to think and bend the rules for themselves, another problem is the internet everybody knows what your thinking and planning you can’t hide anything so your opposition know exactly what your up to, you need more meetings in halls or meeting places where you can speak face to face with other like minded people without every person listening in, won’t be easy in this day and age.

Dan

Aye Sensibledave, I may be what you perceive as a nut job, but don’t shoot the messenger, unless of course you think that Jim Rogers fella kens fuck all n’ was talkin’ bollox.

CameronB Brodie

I hope it’s pretty obvious what I’m up to? 🙂

Constitutionalism and the Rule of Law
Bridging Idealism and Realism

link to cambridge.org

Sensibledave

Dan

I don’t know, or care, who Jim Rogers is, or what he says. I am telling you, as an Englishman what I think. I really don’t mind whether Scotland becomes independent or not. As I said earlier, we will be fine either way. Why is that a problem for you?

CameronB Brodie

Sensibledave
You appear content that Scotland is being denied access to the benefits of democracy though, in order to satisfy the cultural demands of right-wing, (white), populist, English nationalism. I’d suggest you’re dong it deliberately, as well, as your persistence indicates a strong degree of belief and intention.

DJ Cummerbund – Can’t Get Enough Of Your Love, Battlefield
link to youtube.com

Ottomanboi

The English government is following in Scotland’s FM’s path by requiring the wearing of face coverings while shopping…muffle, fuffle wot did ya say?
Sturgeon and Johnson should check their ‘science’.
link to covidinfos.net
Plenty more net stuff in similar vein.
link to instructables.com
Like to see the pair of them down the supermarket in one. Get the police, terrorist alert!

WhoRattledYourCage

The sensation of having your country run (into the ground) by a cabal of deranged-minority-agenda-waving wackjobs and utterly unintelligent workaday sneering ex-Labour Ancien Regime careerist dolts is utterly suffocating for any intelligent person, is all I can say.

Terry callachan

I am in FAVOUR of a LIST party
But it will only work if there is only ONE LIST PARTY otherwise t splits the LIST party vote

And it will only work if that LIST PARTY has just ONE POLICY ” Scottish independence ”
Otherwise it will SPLIT THE INDY VOTE again

So That EXCLUDES ISP who quickly voiced support for those who are anti GRE

Seen a lot of mention of ISP on wos
ISP announce they are against GRE
I guess wos and ISP are pals now but
ISP will split the LIST vote by taking a stance on GRE

What will be ISP,s next policy
How much more of a split will that cause ?

By the way , when NS says she wants to park the Indy campaign for as long as it takes to cope with coronavirus

Does that really mean five years ?
Do you really think as wos appears to that it will be five years before Scottish government cope with coronaviris ?

Are not the Scottish government coping with coronaviris already. .?
Sure it’s not been eradicated but I think they are coping with it already

I agree with wings that the britinats are in full flow against a LIST party of any sort
Their comment and angst is coordinated
There is a sprinkling of people who profess to be Indy supporters in amongst the chorus against a LIST party too

It’s difficult to know who is lying sometimes
Difficult to know who to trust
Especially if you don’t read things and keep up to date with policy and proposals

We now have all the big Indy bloggers fighting one another ( online so far )
This is Westminsters work

You cannot trust that anyone that has access to the tv or radio or a big internet voice
is actually who they say they are , I mean of course in terms of what they support and who they work for

Trust nobody
Make your own judgement
Read as much as you can and keep up to date

Graham

This is inspired and inspiring. It seeks to hand control over to the very folk who should have it: us. It reminds us that the SNP and Independence are not inter-changeable. If, however, the SNP could find the passion and clear-sightedness which this one individual has in spades.

Terry callachan

Ottomanboi…..have you ever thought to yourself
Some people , neighbours ,friends , folk I get on the bus with or go to the same shops etc etc
Might be frightened of catching covid19

Do you not think it would be sensible, nice , to wear a mask just to please the people you mix with outside your home.

Even if you think it’s all a hoax
Even if you think you won’t catch it

If other people think you might spread it to them don’t you think you should adhere to government guidance on wearing of a mask

You know just to do the right thing ?
Even though you don’t believe in it

I don’t believe in god or religion but I show respect to those who do
It’s the right thing to do

CameronB Brodie

Ottomanboi
That’s an interesting report but does not provide compelling evidence that face-masks do not presently provide a public health benefit, IMHO, or that the precautionary principle no longer applies. Do you still support right-wing philosophers who deny the significance of human biology, and reject the principle of universal human rights?

Great Issues in Philosophy
CHAPTER 4: FREE WILL

link to utm.edu

Bob Mack

I have just finished reading the papers released by the Scot Gov’re Alex Salmond. Leslie Evans makes it very clear that she was told by Nicola to create a reviewed Civil Service code. She did not do it on her own.

She states she completed the review in November 2017, and had her first complaints against Alex on Jan 2018.THe was informed in March. Remember that party HQ had decided to store complaints against Alex for future use?. This was them.

Very clear Nicola in introducing and sanctioning the reviewed code for Ministers knew what she was doing. She wanted Alex gone, and ordered Evans to do the dirty work. Sickening.

Me Bungo Pony

@SC
“a small risk to the snp but potentially devastating to the unionists. i think it a risk worth taking”

It’s a big risk if the SNPs constituency vote falls dramatically and some of the List vote drains into the various Pop-Ups. If supposedly pro-indy activists like those on this thread are “actively” (sic) telling voters the SNP are a pile of sh*te who don’t deserve their vote then it’s not a far fetched a scenario.

The ISP (or any of the sundry others looking to stick the boot into the SNP while deluding themselves they’re bringing Indy closer) are not going to make up for the lost SNP MSPs and a unionist majority is a real danger. Nobody has any real idea how many List seats the SNP are going to need to keep Indy on the table. We shouldn’t be risking any.

Indies need to be pulling together to ensure THE party of independence gets a comfortable majority to keep the momentum towards independence going. If the SNP start to fall back now, just as support for independence has reached record highs and they look like sweeping the constituencies, momentum will be lost and the malcontents can kiss goodbye to their dream of securing independence via their cunning plan.

Casabian

Can anybody tell me if Tommy Sheridan us involved in the INDY List Party.

He has been unusually quite lately.

We need a strong voice in the mix.

CameronB Brodie

Seen a lot of mention of ISP on wos
ISP announce they are against GRE
I guess wos and ISP are pals now but
ISP will split the LIST vote by taking a stance on GRE

Misogyny should have no place in Scotland’s emancipation. Just saying. The GRA amendments would legally institutionalise patriarchal misogyny.

Davie Oga

Virtually every country prohibits retroactive (ex post facto) law in their constitutions. Naturally, British legislators aren’t constrained by cumbersome documents like a written constitution. Parliamentary sovereignty allows those in power to do whatever they like.

Maybe Nicolas wee retrospective changes
are all part of her strategy to appeal to soft unionists, kind of saying, “look I’m a corrupt tinpot Brit like the rest of them”. Masterful stuff. One more mandate and we’ll be home and dry.

schrodingers cat

@MBP

It’s a big risk if the SNPs constituency vote falls dramatically ………..

if that happens we are goosed anyway

but we are 8 months from the holyrood election. the snp are on 55%

i dont think that when we hit jan 1st and food and medication supplies dry up due to no deal brexit that support for the union will shoot up.

we can also crowd fund constituenmcy polls to monitor the situation

we are coming down to the wire now MBP, there are now no risk free choices

schrodingers cat

@MBP

the anti snp on this site is depressing.

i think it is due to the lack of progress on indy

that and a touch of cabin fever due to covid

Me Bungo Pony

@Bob Mack

Why would Sturgeon “want Alex gone”? He already was “gone”. Of course she told Evans to draw up a new code. It was needing done. The enquiry hasn’t even started and already the malcontents are sharpening their knives. Guilty or (more likely) not, they won’t be happy till they’ve taken her scalp. It doesn’t matter it would damage the independence cause irreparably. So long as they get the thrill of taking down the great Satan.

I’ve wanted Scottish independence all my life. I was beginning to think we were on the verge of achieving it. Not now. Not with the malcontents actively working against it 🙁

CameronB Brodie

I can support my opposition to the GRA amendments through science and law, can its’ supporters justify their position rationally and legally? The amendments have only advanced by ignoring the fabric of existing legal doctrine protecting the rights of biological women. That’s why the Scottish civil service had to be instructed not to follow best practice re. policy design.

Trans/Form/Ação vol.42 no.1 Marília Jan./Mar. 2019 Epub Apr 08, 2019
The understanding of the body and movement in Merleau-Ponty

Abstract:
The author seeks an explanation for Merleau-Ponty’s expression “the body understands”, to which a real value is applied: the objects of the world have a signification that the body grasps by way of perception.

The analysis focuses on Merleau-Ponty’s Phenomenology of perception and on notes from two of his courses, Le monde sensible et le monde de l’expression and La nature. In these works, there is a constant allusion to the I can as an underlying and grounding mode with regard to the I think. The French philosopher thus grants a central role to movement that demonstrates the interweaving of the body with the world.

Keywords:
Merleau-Ponty; Body understanding; Perception; Movement; World

link to scielo.br

Davie Oga

If the ISP manage to get on mainstream media discussions, or debates in the run up to the election.

Will their spokespeople be arrested for hate crime if they say something like “women don’t have penises” and the TRAs/OFI members of the SNP feel in danger or threatened by what they say and ring the polis?

Serious question. Sturgeon’s government seems to have no problem using the law to silence critics and opponents.

Will Stonewall guidance be used to determine what is permissible discourse in the run up to the election?

Effijy

The UK TV channels all cut away from Westminster as soon as an SNP
Member starts to speak- especially the BBC.

The Scottish Greens get excluded more often than not.

ISP hasn’t a snowballs chance of any exposure within the UK

Me Bungo Pony

“ISP hasn’t a snowballs chance of any exposure within the UK”

There’s always that I suppose.

call me dave

Hmmm!
Wullie Rennie has just popped up here on radio 5 with concerns about the ‘alarming’ outbreaks of corona virus.

However wants targeted local lock downs in Scotland and not a border quarantine which is not a good thing.

Gets quizzed about about why not?… if SGov has the legal right to do so.

Border protest not right…yada yada. Wants FM to welcome vistors from darn Sarf to Scotland…if they follow the rules.

Then he was quickly shuffled off air and gone as the news headlines came on.

First up: Large corona virus in Lanarkshire Scotland 🙁

Robert Louis

Not convinced by the second indy party idea – well not as currently configured, for many, many reason. However, I do agree that it is now urgent for the SNP to finally get on with things and either hold a referendum or use the next election as a proxy vote for indy and to end the union.

Time is running out for Scotland. The SNP are too up their own behinds to even consider that maybe, just maybe events have changed so massively, that their strategy MUST change. Waiting until after the election in 2021, wil be too late.

I find it hard to believe the way in which the SNP have become doped up on their own hubris. Just like british Labour in Scotland did, they take our votes for granted. ‘scottish Labour’, remember them? Nah, nobody else does either.

Casabian

Boris heading to Scotland to save the Union.

I can only see that heading one way, and that is to increase support for Independence.

WhoRattledYourCage

‘Bob Mack says:
19 July, 2020 at 9:56 pm
I have just finished reading the papers released by the Scot Gov’re Alex Salmond. Leslie Evans makes it very clear that she was told by Nicola to create a reviewed Civil Service code. She did not do it on her own.’

Leslie Evans is an utterly untrustworthy piece of SG fifth columnist shit.

CameronB Brodie

There certainly appears to be cause for strong public concern over Scotland’s political predicament, so here’s some early Christian thought. No, I’m not a ninjas evangelist. Or am I? 🙂

AUGUSTINE
On the Free Choice of the Will, On Grace
and Free Choice, and Other Writings

link to philonew.files.wordpress.com

Breastplate

Bungo pony,
It seems you’ve answered everyone who addressed you except me.

Breeks

robbo says:
19 July, 2020 at 2:58 pm

I bet you listened to that disturbed version more than one already! ha ha

Well you lost your bet then…

Ayeright

There have been exactly two people today on here having a differing view from the majority of posters. You know who they are and yet there are accusations of this site being infested with “SNP gatekeepers” and other such shite.

I reckon the two of them, Me Bungo Pony and schrodingers cat won all the arguments on this thread. The rest of you will really need to up your game to beat them, can’t say I’ve been impressed by your efforts so far lol

CameronB Brodie

Here’s some existential, phenomenological, psychology to reassure folk I’m not a religious evangelist.

Qualitative Research in Psychology. 2013 Jul; 10(3): 318–339.
Phenomenological Approaches in Psychology and Health Sciences

link to ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

schrodingers cat

a welsh leader ?

youtu.be/bbVdA7zS8dE

Beaker

@Ayeright says:
20 July, 2020 at 12:14 am
“I reckon the two of them, Me Bungo Pony and schrodingers cat won all the arguments on this thread. The rest of you will really need to up your game to beat them, can’t say I’ve been impressed by your efforts so far lol”

Ach, we’re only here for the banter 🙂

Confused

ayeright 12.14
there’s quality and quantity – the cat has been trying to gaslight us all for a fortnight since his return
– the SNP have done all they can
– that really important thing we have been avoiding … major plans are afoot, oh yes indeedy
– really bizarre and unpopular laws we have been pushing crazy hard – will not be passed after all
link to youtube.com
– I too wish to be transported to a magical kingdom of wonder
“ayeright”, indeed

bungholio – whoever the fuck, has just been spamming, across multi forums
link to youtube.com
– like he’s eaten too much sugar

– ever since the indy list party looked to be getting off the ground, there has been furious activity across the forums. And all the new posters are in attack mode.

I don’t like bashing the SNP, but at the very least one has to accuse them of “inertia” (-whatever else is there, who knows?) – the proposed indy list party is simply there to give them a push. The SNP still get my first vote, they are a beautiful machine, excellent administrators, the FM skilled – but like a fine house over-run by squatters.

The peculiarites of DHONDT put there to be “rigged against us” can themselves be effectively exploited to our advantage, and without damaging the SNP; this could be the first time in history a “split” has happened WITHOUT catatrophic repercussions. So why not do it? Anyone who is against this is suspect in my book.

– we can un-rig the rigging … which makes me think of a SONG

link to youtube.com

twathater

Ayeright the SNP pop up troll back on duty again tonight

schrodingers cat

Confused says:
there’s quality and quantity – the cat has been trying to gaslight us all for a fortnight since his return
——–

glad you appreciate the quality and quantity of my input 🙂

twathater

It is the height of stupidity that there is only 1 party with indy as its raison d’etre sitting in the SP , other indy focused parties should have been formed years ago .

It is absolute madness that WE have allowed the 3 unionist parties to effectively take over and run our parliament. As someone posted before , we even had a UKIP party standing in Scotland , it is our own fault we have become complacent and apathetic and maybe if we had had another indy driven party to vote for , the SNP might have felt more challenged to go for independence knowing that its heels were being nipped

However we now have that OPPORTUNITY to right that wrong , as others have suggested LESS IS MORE , if we are to have ANY chance of success for this to work there has to be some kind of agreement to restrict the number of NEW parties to a maximum of 2 which would have a greater effect of NOT depleting the vote too much and would possibly constrain the radicals from going off piste , but that would have to be done with consent and agreement between the new parties leaders

schrodingers cat

@twathater

the isp have already rejected the Alliance party, a group who were formed to do exactly what you propose, ie ensure the new indy list parties dont end up competing against one and other

Jack collatin

Nicola Sturgeon is shite? Vote SNP at constituency level and for any bum warmer the New ISP party puts up at Regional level?

ISP Party Manifesto? Independence for Scotland. No, that’s it.
£1200 a week plus exes to contribute to governing Scotland, with no policies, no political stance..well nothing.
Put my name down for one of ISP’s list sinecures.

What utter Tommy rot.

If the Greens seriously join in with SNP and stand candidates ‘strategically’in Brit marginals, the Brit Nats will lose a significant number of seats, certainly at the FPTP constituency level.
Most of us are not waiting until May 2021.

Mungo Armstrong
Effijy

The picture below captures England, it’s leadership, negotiating skills and it’s dream of Empire. lol

link to m.facebook.com

Breeks

Me Bungo Pony says:
19 July, 2020 at 10:25 pm

“Why would Sturgeon “want Alex gone”? He already was “gone”. Of course she told Evans to draw up a new code. It was needing done. The enquiry hasn’t even started and already the malcontents are sharpening their knives. Guilty or (more likely) not, they won’t be happy till they’ve taken her scalp. It doesn’t matter it would damage the independence cause irreparably. So long as they get the thrill of taking down the great Satan.”

Strikes me any one of the Conspirators who tried to lynch Alex Salmond couldn’t have put it any better… especially once they’d used WhatsApp to get their gaslighting script right of course.

How thoroughly awkward for you the man was proved innocent and it’s now the seedy conspiracy which will have to answer for it’s backstabbing skullduggery and smear campaign.

Republicofscotland

Sturgeon in the National newspaper today, pleading for your constituency and list votes, saying we need both for a majority. She then goes on to say;

“History is littered with examples of political parties that start talking to each other, as opposed to the public, I don’t think that’s where the SNP is generally.”

The GRA anyone? Self-ID? To name but a few, she’s certainly not listening to the public on those matters.

As for giving her your list vote, giving it to the ISP or the indy alliances maximises the amount of independence minded MSPs at Holyrood, giving it to the SNP doesn’t.

Sturgeon added.

“I haven’thad the headroom to think about it,but now you are making me think about it, there does seem something odd about a political party that is sitting after 13 years in power, with record opinion poll ratings and the biggest ever support for independence, agonising over what’s gone wrong.”

Take from that what you will, I take from it that the SNP are comfy governing Scots, with competent policies, but afraid of independence.

Breeks

Picked this up from the Friends of Wings Twitter…

Michael Sheen making a powerful speech.

link to twitter.com

The full speech is out there, but I don’t have time to watch right now…

callmedave

Scotland’s papers: Masks ‘fall apart’ and Johnson visits

says the BBC website…but wait!

Hark the Herald headline says:

Thousands of decade-old masks sent to doctors recalled after disintegrating

The last sentence in the article is all you need really!
————————————————————–
A Scottish Government spokeswoman said: “PPE which has been issued to NHS Boards must meet appropriate standards, and it will be withdrawn if it does not.
“The shelf life of these masks was extended in March as they were tested as safe to use.
“They have, more recently, failed re-testing and, in line with normal procedure, therefore, a UK-wide alert was issued 26 June. These masks will not now be used and will be safely disposed of.”
—————————————————————–

Ah!… a UK wide alert… aye!

link to archive.is

PS:
Looks like a scorching day in Fife…off to the shops.

Dan

Ac