That was always a pretty silly lyric. But anyway.
We had to switch the telly off after about 10 minutes of the news this morning. The piety was too much to take. So intead we’re just going to quote two things from the avalanche of comment that’s appeared this morning on the death of Nelson Mandela.
The first is by someone we’d never heard of:
“Dear revisionists, Mandela will never, ever be your minstrel. Over the next few days you will try so, so hard to make him something he was not, and you will fail. You will try to smooth him, to sandblast him, to take away his Malcolm X. You will try to hide his anger from view.
Right now, you are anxiously pacing the corridors of your condos and country estates, looking for the right words, the right tributes, the right-wing tributes. You will say that Mandela was not about race. You will say that Mandela was not about politics. You will say that Mandela was about nothing but one love, you will try to reduce him to a lilting reggae tune. “Let’s get together, and feel alright.” Yes, you will do that.
The second, not unrelated, is from a column by Alex Massie in the Spectator:
“Rightly, much of the emphasis tonight has been on Mandela’s extraordinary powers of empathy and forgiveness. But he could never have been in a position to demonstrate that rich humanity had he not been a fighter first.
The fighting was important for without the fighting, both before he went to prison and during the long years of his captivity, there could have been no peace.”
We quote Massie’s article without sarcasm. It’s a genuinely good and moving piece of work. But we wouldn’t be doing our job if we didn’t note that when Massie talks of Mandela in the context of forgiveness, the timing is a little unfortunate:
Now, we don’t have a lot of time for Gerry Adams either. But you can’t praise Mandela as one of the most significant figures in history while demonstrating that you’ve completely ignored both of his most important messages.
Now we’re off to watch Invictus again.
Ooooo sick burn
Give Gerry Adams a couple more decades, and of course the secession of Scotland with big decisions to be made about where N Ireland sees itself, and whether Adams can rise to meet that political challenge in a conciliatory and inclusive fashion.
Then we shall see.
I think the adage, “One man’s freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist” still applies.
When I saw the title I thought the article was going to be about Margaret Curran.
Interesting article here from 1990 about the British state’s reaction to Nelson Mandela calling for Westminster and the IRA to sit down and talk things out. Of course, several years later, that’s pretty much what they did. Was never going to happen with Thatcher at the helm, though.
link to articles.chicagotribune.com
I looked at the first piece when it was linked here on the last thread after his death was announced and have now liked it on Facebook, which is my limit on social media.
I was struck, while watching David Cameron’s attempts at gravitas (failed) this morning, by the incongruity of one of Thatcher’s children giving a eulogy to Mandela, whom Thatcher described as a ‘terrorist’.
Can anyone remember when she used the term? Was it before or after his release from prison?
Are those voices praising Nelson Mandela today the same ones that so venomously slated the Scottish government for releasing Megrahi out of compassion? I remember that Mandela also had something important to say on that issue.
oh, and don’t even think about visiting Guido this morning.
Don’t say I didn’t warn you…..
@Brotyboy
I dont think there’s any direct quote, more regards the ANC organisation.
A fitting link is F.W. de Klerk, actually praised Thatcher for siding with his regime. He concluded his statement by saying “I am honoured to have had Margaret Thatcher as a friend.”
Should have released Megrahi on the grounds of innocence long before…
I have followed Musa Okwonga for a while now on twitter, initially for his football related chat but increasingly for his thoughtful and interesting writing. What a pleasant surprise to see him linked here on Wings!
Mandela was not fighting against the British establishment whereas Gerry Adams was perceived to be….hence the difference in the views.
Brotyboy
In the Times of 27 July 1985 she is reported as having called the ANC as a terrorist organisation, not Mandela as a terrorist, as by then he had been banged up in jail for over two decades.
Brotyboy
You should see the posts on the UKIP website. I haven’t gone there because I would need a bottle of mind bleach afterwards, and it is too early for the red variety, but I came across a site showing some of their tweets.
Remember these are the people who are increasing pulling the strings, and will become the marionnetteers, of the Tory party.
Better Together’s twitter said last night “RIP Nelson Mandela. A great loss after a great life.”
I can’t help thinking that the 27 years in prison wasn’t all that “great” for him. Are these guys using to use the word “great” as much as they can to remind us of “Great Britain” or something?
Fittingly on the list of other recommended videos on The Specials “Free Nelson Mandela” Link above is Go Wests “We Close Our Eyes”
It really is a bit rich of Tory boy scaredy Cameron, to start shouting the praises of Mandela, when it was his predecessor, Thatcher, whom the Tory grandees still worship, who helped perpetuate Apartheid in South Africa, and described Mandela as a terrorist.
Seems like Downing street are engaged in their own personal re-write of modern history. Are they going to wipe the internet of any references Thatcher made to South Africa and Mandela as well?
The Better Together face book page was in chaos earlier as there was a complete surge of cognitive dissonance. Some of the comments were so toxic they left quite a few No voters feeling queasy. So much so a few openly stated that such vile comments had made them think seriously about being in the no camp.
The ones who voiced their concerns were violently derided by others as being ‘soft’ and stupid. One of my favourite remarks was, and I paraphrase “ oh come on comments like this make us look as narrow minded as the Nats”.
I do enjoy a bit of self carnage every now and again from the no camp.
As I’m not on Facebook, I don’t know if I can’t see this picure because of that, or because it’s genuinely not there.
Can someone with a Facebook account please click this link and tell me if it leads to a picture of Nelson Mandela with another controversial figure?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10201971964093873&set=a.1420902535751.52149.1628335207&type=1
@Desimond, @Marcia, @Bugger (the panda)
Thanks for the info and comments.
I’m sure it was my Ol’ Man who told me that Thatcher had said it. As a lifelong socialist he’d have interpreted what was reported as having been said in exactly the way he told me, and my opinion of Thatcher is such that I would still agree with him.
Should have released Megrahi on the grounds of innocence long before…
You know what? That’s another subject that could be headed with the title of this article. The Scottish authorities have been given the evidence that completely exonerates Megrahi, earlier this year. They are currently doing a stellar impression of Horatio Nelson with it.
@Morag
Seems it’s genuinely not available at the mo.
Perhaps the finest musical tribute is the magnificent Hugh Masakela piece “Bring Him Back Home”. There are trumpet players then there are musical geniuses
Makes me shiver every time I hear it. I’ll play it on my wee rock’n’roll programme tonight
And of course, the Tory Students federation in the 80s were pretty disgusting about Mandela and the ANC. And we know where many of them are now!
He was certainly denounced from the floor of the House of Commons by Tory MPs.
Seems it’s genuinely not available at the mo.
I believe it’s a photo of Nelson Mandela visiting Abdelbaset al-Megrahi in Barlinnie, where Mandela autographed Megrahi’s copy of A Long Walk to Freedom, and added an encouraging inscription.
Mandela knew that the kangaroo court at Camp Zeist had produced a miscarriage of justice, and was very supportive of Megrahi. I believe he also visited him in Libya soon after he was released.
I was looking at the various headlines on Mandela this morning and listening to some commentators and the contrast between coverage of the man and his death with the press coverage of the Independence was blinding.
I’ve come to the conclusion of a long period that the press seeks reflected glory and approbation.
If there is a famine or disaster they can write articles to appear deeply concerned, far seeing, of substantial humanity, but this is because it requires nothing of the real person writing the article.
This was put into the sharpest contrast when the Independence Referendum became a real issue. Then I began to see the character and personality of the writers. It wasn’t good.
It is hard to understand the narrow self interest of the individuals in the press. They want live in a law abiding, civilised society with standards of decency but when it comes to how they see themselves being affected by the issue all these standards become tradable.
They want respect but show little, allowing distortion and actively adding distortion to news. An honestly held point of view can be respected, but it seems to me much of the press do not believe what they write has the strength allowed by being factually true so they dress it up.
A clear example were the journalists who said recently, the public should rely on the real journalists in the mainstream press, and not put any faith in the internet media. If they had faith in their own written arguments and news they wouldn’t need to say that.
I suppose the casual acceptance of their power to present the news in whatever way they deem fit was being challenged and found wanting. It tells me they know they are often lying. A lie can be a distortion of facts or rearranging of facts,just as much as making up ‘information.
This why, to me, they can be generous and wise about Mandela, because he was far away, but they are fearful and bitter about someone like Adams because he brought the responsibility for what they wrote right to their doorsteps.
Their cosy insularity was disturbed.
Margaret Thatcher, 1987, said:
‘The ANC is a typical terrorist organisation … Anyone who thinks it is going to run the government in South Africa is living in cloud-cuckoo land’
link to independent.co.uk
and Musa Okwonga on Mandela:
link to newsfrombeyond.net
“and Musa Okwonga on Mandela:
link to newsfrombeyond.net“
You know that that’s the piece I quoted and linked, right?
I find Alex Massie confusing; at times I agree with him and then he reverts to type and goes all unionist.
But the truth of what he writes here is evident to anyone who has read ‘The Long Walk To Freedom’. And to look at the early pictures of Mandela is to see a man absolutely committed to his path, unsmiling, and a clear danger to people who required the status quo to be maintained.
His readiness to accept the use of violence, it strikes me, could be justified in much the same terms as the use of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, in that it shortened the war and saved lives in the long run.
Brian Powell@11.54
Agree, my point exactly.
This why, to me, they can be generous and wise about Mandela, because he was far away, but they are fearful and bitter about someone like Adams because he brought the responsibility for what they wrote right to their doorsteps.
What a dirty bastard Cameron is. He was part of Maggie’s entourage that went to apartheid South Africa in 1989, a trip funded by ARMSCOR (Armaments Corporation of South Africa), to bolster commercial ties while opposing UN sanctions against the country. Part of that trip was to the uranium mines where Britain had ‘special commercial interests’. ARMSCOR at the time had started producing nuclear bombs for South African military in co-development with Israel. In 1992 the Conservative Party received a £17m donation from South Africa believed to be from ARMSCOR and associated ‘friends’, by 1994 under international pressure, South Africa was forced to end its nuclear program and destroy its fledgling arsenal (seven bombs) and enrichment facilities. However it is believed that three went into storage in Oman, purchased by funds from the British government, on behalf of ‘private investors’ which in turn one the bombs was then sold to North Korea via Israel.
Our Prime Minister today, is waxing lyrical about Mandela’s life and times and how he was a good man or a great man, a humanitarian. Yet how much filth covers the hands of Cameron and his party as they make deals with all and sundry choking with greed at the expense of democracy, justice and the freedom to others. In Scotland’s struggle to become independent it would be wise to never give these shits an inch despite how benign they seem to be.
Dcanmore,
thanks for the reminder! Great Post.
Dcanmore says:@12.25
With you all the way brother
It is astonishing how the very much not great and the not good, ie Cameron and Curran et al, come out with their shallow meaningless comments at times like this. The hypocrisy is palpable and sickening. It is also incredibly transparent, they really do think the population are fools don’t they.
On this sad day remember all the victims of apartheid and the international financing of the racist South African regime Remember to Steve Biko and his murder by the South African Police. Remember also the murder of the present day South African Miners by the British owned mining interests Above all remember what a great freedom fighter Comrade Nelson Mandela was.
“The Better Together face book page was in chaos earlier as there was a complete surge of cognitive dissonance.”
I see they’ve all been deleted now, leaving just a lot of “that’s a terrible comment” type posts. The Vote No “British unity” page has removed their similar post entirely due to similar comments.
I think that says a lot about what kind of people populate those pages – ie a lot of UKIP, BNP, far right types. How Labour and left folk can stomach being anywhere near that campaign is a mystery to me.
Well here is a thought people, Nelson Mandela, African Freedom Fighter or Terrorist? well he was convicted in a court of law of bombing a Post Office sub-station, the fact that he was a thorn in the Nationalist Government of South Africa who perpetuated apartheid which had been introduced into South Africa by Westminster.
Now Westminster is praising the man. What if I bombed a sub-station in the name of fighting for freedom for Scotland and it’s people? am I a terrorist or a freedom fighter?
Nikosi,
Speaking of acts of violence and blowing things up, heres an interesting historical thing which is relevant today:
link to en.wikipedia.org
Which is why Royal Mail vans dont bear the “EIIR” device. Blowing up pillar boxes is clearly a dangerous and foolish act, Someone could have been killed. But the state folded to the nationalist demands and the EIIR was removed.
Were those who did this “terrorists”? If so, they won. Just sayin…
Incidentally, further to my comment about the Pillar Box War, the kids TV series “Postman Pat” has a Gaelic version “Padraig Post”. Very popular it is too. Unfortunately, they may have translated the name and the script, but his van is still the EIIR variety!
link to ichef.bbci.co.uk
🙂
Nkosi says:
Well here is a thought people, Nelson Mandela, African Freedom Fighter or Terrorist? well he was convicted in a court of law of bombing a Post Office sub-station, the fact that he was a thorn in the Nationalist Government of South Africa who perpetuated apartheid which had been introduced into South Africa by Westminster.
Now Westminster is praising the man. What if I bombed a sub-station in the name of fighting for freedom for Scotland and it’s people? am I a terrorist or a freedom fighter?
You have the right to free speech. You can print your own literature and hand it out in full view of the police and public. You can arrange public meetings and express your opinion without fear. You can publish to the world though the internet. You have a ballot box you can go to and freely vote for change. You and your family and friends do not live in fear of being dragged from your beds, beaten and killed. If you were stupid enough to commit such an act you would put back your cause 50 years. So the comparison is moot.
Excellent article.
Most of all in the storm of, as the first writer says, piety and searching for the right words, is the presence of one David Cameron. Gushing with enormous levels of sympathy, extending plaudits, and all the time hoping no one remembers he was once a prominent member of a student group that produced a ‘Hang Nelson Mandela’ poster at the height of the apartheid era.
Either he’s had a revelation of true ‘road to Damascus’ proportions, or he’s a hypocrite. I’d suggest the latter.
Slightly O/T A friend of mine and I were out last night and became involved in a conversation, regarding the referendum and Scottish attitudes to it, with a Spaniard who works and lives here. “Where are the fighters?” he asked. The guy obviously loves Scotland and believes we must have independence, but he worries at the lack of passion the debate is generating among the Scots he meets. Given the rallies in Catalonia we could see his point. We told him the fighters are there (Rev. Stu for one) and their battleground is the internet. The passion is there! We don’t paint our faces (I think!) and our choice of weapon is a mouse, not a sword or gun. I tried to assure him that come 2014 that mouse will roar. He was heading home to Spain for Christmas with his family and hopefully is now less bemused by our apparently quiet approach to this momentous event.
Oh, well, this should at least have the benefit of helping any ‘Dinna Ken’s’ in the polling booth next year, all they need to ask themselves is; ‘What would Nelson Mandela have done?’
Very good article Rev Stu. Mandela was a product of the regime and he (and others) had the guts (and the rage) to stand against it. What I find so inspiring is that, when you think of the young man that he was and his treatment in jail, it is hard to believe that anyone would not become extremely bitter.
I guess no-one will know how many times he had to bite his tongue. Truth is, he never lost sight of the prize. He did whatever was necessary whether that was to take up arms or dine with wolves. This is the sort of man you would want on your side.
I have to say that I find the coverage of a 95 year olds demise utterly nauseating.
I hear the hypocrisy and I understand they ( the not so great nor so good) have to respond to a microphone thrust in their face and I equally understand that it would be tricky to say anything unflattering no matter how true or heartfelt – but then why does the BBBC insist on its ridiculous extended ,ghoulish ,insincere drivel while searching out matching insincere comment?
From the tragedy of last week to this death they sure have made a meal of things which suggests to me that they have taken the opportunity to bury bad political , economic news or even good news for Scottish independence.
“I see they’ve all been deleted now, leaving just a lot of “that’s a terrible comment” type posts. The Vote No “British unity” page has removed their similar post entirely due to similar comments. “
What’s our watchword, readers?
Screenshots, screenshots, screenshots.
@ James Westland
=> “the pillar box bombers”
…… my ol’ man was one of them, de-mobbed out the Navy in ’46 after doing his bit for
“King & Country” , then discovers in ’52 his country isn’t even recognised and is insulted
by having a “foreign ” sovereign’s idendifier shoved down his gullet.
He and a bunch of like minded Nats (mostly ex-forces) decided on “direct non-lethal action”.
Sufficient to say it got both the media’s & the Establishments attention !!!!
He also informed me of their “entry” of the Wallace Monument and their intention to
“Repatriate” Wallace’s Clay Mhor.
All of the above put the auld man under the beedie eye of the Security Forces of the
British Establishment and subsequently me upon my entry into military service in
The Air Force.
@ScotsCanuck
Thats interesting – that you have that direct family link to the events! But what gets me is that the State capitulated and removed the EIIR. Is this, therefore a tacit admission by the British state that Queen Elizabeth is indeed QE1 and not QEII?
Or is it just a sop to shut up these uppity jocks….
After all James VI (of Scotland) became James I of the UK didnt he?
@ronnie cowan: You have the right to free speech. You can print your own literature and hand it out in full view of the police and public. You can arrange public meetings and express your opinion without fear. You can publish to the world though the internet. You have a ballot box you can go to and freely vote for change. You and your family and friends do not live in fear of being dragged from your beds, beaten and killed. If you were stupid enough to commit such an act you would put back your cause 50 years. So the comparison is moot.
Nelson Mandela and the oppressed of South Africa had no other option but to fight. We don’t have to: we are blessed to be in a situation where we don’t have to resort to conflict or bloodshed, with some of the best politicians in the country on our side. That’s why this referendum is so important: it’s the last chance we have for a peaceful revolution.
In the event of a No vote, we’ve lost that chance, and the road to independence will be harder. If things continue to disintegrate, it could very well lead to bloodshed: not just in Scotland, but all across the UK, as the effects of Westminster’s hypocritical Cult of Austerity finally drive people to desperation – the sort of desperation which leads people to think there truly is no other way to fight back than to use violence. Certainly that was the case in Ireland, too, when Catholics were systematically victimised, discriminated against and even killed.
We’re not there yet: Scots get a raw deal, but our rights as human beings – again, across the UK – are being eroded on a daily basis by the government. The laws which are currently in place to protect people are being twisted to serve the rich and powerful, leading to a farcical society where your rights only go so far.
You have the right to free speech – unless it’s considered libel.
You can print your own literature and hand it out in full view of the police and public – unless it’s considered in violation of the Terrorism Act. There is practically no accountability for politicians acting for the “interests of the state” (why else do you think Blair, Brown, Straw wt al aren’t in prison right now), and they’ve already participated in the rendition of UK citizens without even charging them.
You can arrange public meetings and express your opinion without fear – unless it’s considered incitement to violence, even if it’s a peaceful protest with no hint of violence. Or perhaps you’re in the wrong place at the wrong time, like Ian Tomlinson or Jean Charles de Menezez.
You can publish to the world though the internet – unless the government don’t like what you’re saying. Given their increasing interest in America-style surveillance and spying on citizens’ private information, if they don’t find something to pin you, they’ll make it up.
You have a ballot box you can go to and freely vote for change – unless not enough of you exercised your right to vote, thus implying no change even if over 50% of the vote DID vote for change. And, of course, unless the unelected House of Lords has something to say about it.
You and your family and friends do not live in fear of being dragged from your beds, beaten and killed – but if you’re poor/unemployed/disabled and deemed “unworthy” of benefits, then you’ll lose your house and income, you’ll be demonised as a Scrounger and Cheat, then you’ll lose your house and income, and finally either die from stress, hypothermia, or suicide from despair.
No, things are absolutely not as bad as Apartheid era South Africa, but we must be vigilant to ensure that does not become our destination. Scottish independence is the best chance for change not just for the Scottish people, but for the UK as a whole. Maybe by ending the UK, the people of England, Wales and NI will realise how rotten Westminster is, and finally be able to change it. Sometimes people need such a big change to wake up.
But if it’s a No vote, watch out, because the current government clearly has NO compunctions about dragging us back to the Victorian period.
@ken
Lets hope the mouse is also mightier than the sword.
Mr Tebbit has a view on Mandela.
link to archive.is
NI Loyalists are going mental about Mandela – some really nasty stuff going around the interwebs.
Forgot link:
link to ladbelfast.tumblr.com
I see radio 5 live already demolishing Mandela’s legacy.
Failed as a leader when in power, not keeping his promises, terrorist connections, well it’s a point but he’s not even buried yet.
The British Thatcherite supporters of apartheid who bitterly opposed sanctions against the apartheid regime now paying ‘tributes’ to Mandela.
Mandela was, to the end, an unrepentant terrorist. Adams is no different in that respect.
A friend wrote to the BBC:
Dear BBC,
I remember vividly how we were starving on the shores of Lake Galillee and Nelson Mandela fed us all with only a few loaves and fishes. Sorry, I seem to be confusing Nelson Mandela with our lord Jesus Christ. As does the BBC…