Wings Over Scotland

Did any of them say ‘We don’t do walking away’ ?

Can’t see much of a turnout at the next election whenever that is.

Ooh, yirra naffie man, Rev!

8=)

In the nearly three years I have been reading this site this has to be one of your finest posts Mr Campbell.

FUNNY!FUNNY!FUNNY!

But also all so depressingly true!

What on earth is happening in this country.

I´ve had acid flashbacks that have made more sense!

Jings what happened to the poor bloke that used to be Kingsley i think thats important as well is he our new PM?

On the top gear thing good he is an arse the rest of the show is actually quite good except for the bits he is in plus its a bit strange that the real star of the show Matt plays second fiddle to a twat most people dont like.

So Dave wants to come and live in his Scotland region guess who will be the first person audited by the new independant Scottish tax office.

Brilliant!

Now just as long as you’re not about to leave us in the lurch, I think we’ll survive whatever repositioning occurs in this mad house ?

ScotConservatives ?@ScotTories 1h1 hour ago
The state of Scotland’s education sysytem isn’t the EU’s fault, it’s the SNP which is responsible, says @ProfTomkins #Scotlanddebate

Titter ye not. This is a Glasgow uni top top man and his grapplerising with Engwish. To be fair, he’s not that great at Slovenian either.

How many spare bedrooms in that mansion of dave’s that he is eying up ?

Should have a thatcher style guinea pig trial of the bedroom supertax, only in Scotland mind, in fact, only in huge big fuck off mansions owned by posh boy ex prime ministers called David Cameron.

Now, how much to charge..hmm…suggestions ?

The British Establishment has been rocked to its foundations as never before.

In a couple of months, it will re-group and consolidate its position again.

In my view, calling an independence referendum early last week immediately after Nicola’s visit to Brussels, while all our opponents were in turmoil and the EU’s eyes were on us would have been the perfect move.

I think we have missed the perfect opportunity.

I think the SNP is doing well in the face of almost the totality of UK media.

So if someone persists in spreading alarm and despondency I would just call them a troll.

There were so many lies in the air in that debate that only some could have been rebutted by the LONELY panellist. Lies like Scotland gets charity via Barnett ,not getting our own money back.Lies like only a minority in Scotland voted REMAIN, non voters and the dead and dying arenevercountedin an election! Lies like it is only democratic that Scotland is out voted every UK wideelection.

Cruel.
But fair.

After a hellish day decided to see what’s going on today where we are.
Soooo glad I did! About to hit ma pit with a smile on my face.

Thanks Rev.

A much more accurate summation than the ever more repellent tory BBC led propaganda

link to facebook.com

I am resigned to my fate

@Heed
Thanks for that, I love Christolph as an actor. Watched him last night in Inglorious Basterds, again!

Can’t not watch that film, when it’s on.

BTW, Max Keiser foretold the rats would all be gone, but within the year.

The whole world is laughing about Brexit, but now they must be laughing worse at people electing this calibre of weapons grade shit, to public office.

Grouse Beater @ 11.51.

Couldn’t agree more.

My English daughter-in-law arrived the day after the vote for a family birthday party and had still not calmed down after her anger on FB in the morning.

My son also had an outburst on FB saying it was time to go home and campaign for Scottish Independence which my daughter-in-law confirmed he means.

There may well be many ex-pats in England who feel the same.

We will welcome all to the cause.

Hark the Herald headline stories.
———————————————————–

We want our party back, say Labour MPs, as Watson makes last-ditch effort to avoid civil war

link to archive.is

Theresa May have it.

link to archive.is

Regards jobs, is anyone in wastemonster bothered that many people have no job. With no choice, they are driven to zero hours, temp zero contracts with no (workers) rights. If they are treated like shit they can’t leave, because they will not find another job and will most certainly not be helped by the state.

My brother who is in his early 60s, and not in good health is in a zero hours job, on call, weekdays and weekends. He wants to work, but I am absolutely livid that he is being used and treated like a slave with no life due to being at their beck and call. He looks exhausted.

UK is backward, those in power, on massive wages, and expenses, paid for by the people, are taking the absolute piss out of population. Why people in places like NE england thought that leaving the EU would help their situation I will never know. This god awful disunited UKok is a disgrace, and surely in the eyes of many in the EU, a sham. A sham government in westminster, led by sham gits, who fcuk off when they have already just shat on the floor, and there is no one to clean it up.

Why the people put up with it is perplexing. Scotland doesn’t need to put up with the incompetent, uncaring, dangerous WM unionists, greedy, self seeking turds. We need out soon. Sorry the sweary words, but just sick to the back teeth with this horrendous backward union, their political and media pals who control what happens and destroy lives.

Boris to UKIP leaves a Tory Party vacancy for Chilcot.
Perfect.

Ronnie: Noo thats the way to do it Ya Fekin Troll ,fekin amature.

:lol::lol::lol:

Links

link to yescotland.com

Nicola Sturgeon will hold talks with leading business groups today on the importance of Scotland’s place in the EU.
link to archive.is

Meant to post this before. Oil firms dead against indy, no need to wonder why.
link to exaronews.com

Discussion on brexit francetv Alyn Smith on the panel

medias.france24.com/en/vod/2016/07/02/TK034623-A-01-20160629.mp4 …

Rock@10:21pm

…weesht man, weesht!

Links

You will be able to download a copy of the Iraq enquiry report here…

link to iraqinquiry.org.uk

link to usuncut.com

Activists storm US military base in Yorkshire
link to archive.is

French presidential frontrunner Alain Juppé calls to end Le Touquet agreement and place border with UK on British soil
link to archive.is

We have not missed the perfect opportunity for independence. It is being created for us daily. It is being created economically by the forces and pressures which will inebitably build up as a result of Brexit and which we see each day on the news.

Time is not our enemy,but our friend. No general will launch an attack until they have their units in place.

The building blocks are being put in place slowly but surely. Nicola ,like any good commander is waiting for the time sufficient reports indicate beyond doubt that England is drowning but dragging us down with her. Then she will act.

It is no use telling people something is going to happen.Often they have to experience it for themselves before awareness takes place.

At the risk of sounding like I spend my life at the movies, when you step back from the crazy UK meltdown, the most poignant image which it calls to mind is the scene from the Lord of the Rings, where Theodin dresses into battle armour and ponders the mere survival of his people against impossible odds, and asks himself searching questions, and ultimately, “How did it come to this?”

Tremendous wee bit of cinema, but poignant to our own here and now, as I have said.

Back in the real world, there is a massive change in the air. Westminster is in turmoil, it can barely find its own leader, and in all quarters, pretenders to the throne are fighting amongst themselves with neither grace nor integrity. And what lies ahead but the challenge of juggling Brexit chainsaws? A leaderless Westminster begats a leaderless Better Together. It is beyond salvage for a fractured United Kingdom to credibly unite in common purpose to obstruct a disciplined and resolute European Scotland. Unionism might reform, indeed it must happen, but we Scots can surely recognize a Toom Tabard autocracy and its questionable authority.
The slumbering European ogre we couldn’t summon to our aid back in 2014 has been wakened by a slap to it’s face by Brexit. It has awoken angry and defensive, and keen to gather its loyal chicks in close. It will look after us.
The “dilemma” wee Scotland can suffer upon NATO? Would that be the same NATO of war hawks biting their nails to the quick about Chilcot? The NATO currently sending troops through our European airspace to stick two fingers up at the Russians? It isn’t Estonia that smoulders, this NATO-RUSSO fire was set alight in Syria by Neoliberal foreign policy. Take your nukes with you when you go. Or sit back and watch us dismantle them. See? We’re reasonable people and would give you a choice.

And what of our domestic Union jack clad thuglets? Those Queen fans who like their night at the opera? Those now synominous with the “British disease” purged out of our Europe with CS gas.

So what remains of that resolute and dastardly campaign to suppress and distort our democratic coming of age in 2014? Why only the resolute and bastardly BBC.

@Rock says: 10:21 pm
“In my view, calling an independence referendum early last week immediately after Nicola’s visit to Brussels, I think we have missed the perfect opportunity.”

Aye she should have called referendum headquarters on the red phone and given the order “release the ballot papers!”. We would already be independent, Vince in Hull would be happy and the Rev could retire

George was a naughty boy
link to archive.is

@Ruby I should have put ‘spoiler alert’ after the link lol

A few more links

‘We must move the border back to where it belongs’
link to archive.is

link to scottishfinancialnews.com

link to usuncut.com

@Ruby@Nana

Thanks for the links to the Brexit France talk
That David Coburn brings out the desire to maim, what an awful creature of a man

Good to see expressions of support from the other participants for Alyn Smith

Socrates Macsporran, the current Queen Elizabeth 1 of Scots underwent a sort of Coronation in Scotland in 1953 , although it’s called the United Kingdom it’s two separate crowns but Robert will be able to confirm.

So Chuck the 3rd will have his coronation in Scotland, probably the last one although personally I prefer the idea of an elected Monarchy with a fixed term of five years and a maximum of two terms.

Keeps everybody happy 🙂

The leaders of the Leave campaign have all left each other now.

Gove left Boris to become PM, against all his (Gove’s) previous (insincere) statements; Boris left Leave to head for the wilderness, since he wasn’t allowed to ‘achieve the dream’, which was simply to become PM; nice Mr. Farage left UKIP to ‘get his life back’, financed by remaining a non-practising MEP for as long as he possibly can (talk about not doing a proper job, or not doing a job properly!).

But all three of these leading Brexiteers still have one thing in common: they are the collective perpetrators of a giant fraud. Each and every one of them should be prosecuted.

They all agree now that their headline figure – we will save 350 million GBP going down the drain to Europe every week (and 100 million of it will henceforth be spent on the health service instead) was a barefaced lie. Not a mistake, which might be genuine, but a lie. Admitted. Without shame. Now that the campaign is over.

If I were to obtain money or propery or rights from you by deliberately lying, promising you things that are not true and which I know very well will never materialise, it’s fraud.

Would I not get prosecuted for doing that?

So, what about them?

I don’t see why it’s not fraud when politicians do the same thing. The Leave campaign stole the votes of gullible people by deliberately misleading them. By their own admission …

Since the referendum was won by fraudsters, carrying out a giant con on the general public, why can’t they be prosecuted for it? Because, in a democracy, as we discovered in Orkney, lying is OK. Or, at least, ‘a democracy like ours’ …

At the very least, the result of the referendum should be declared null and void. Why is no one at Westminster saying that? It would be perfectly feasible to do so.

Everyone knows the English people have never been sovereign in England. And never will be. It’s ‘the Queen in parliament’, which is sovereign – which effectrively means, in our day, the parliament.

So why doesn’t some MP for an English constituency get up and state the plain fact that English MPs are not bound by the result? And why doesn’t that same MP propose that a result so fraudulently obtained should never be acted upon?

If some English MP did have the guts to come out and say that, he would quickly become the most popular politician in England. Over 60% of the English population would now back him.

With Labour and the Tories both much the same, and both split on this issue, it could even be the beginning of a new alignment among (non-SNP) MPs.

An alignment which could eventually become a new party.

That new party could simply call itself (for the time being, at least) the ‘ReMaIn Party’. A pro-EU Party, something the English electorate were never given. Though we have had one up here for decades, in the shape of the SNP. England needs a ‘Responsible Mainline In’ Party (ReMaIn, for short).

If I was English, or just living in England, I would vote ReMaIn at the next GE.

Even in the present make-up of Westminster, such a ReMaIn Alignment (or Party) could combine with the SNP and others (Plaid, and so on) to block any triggering of Clause 50. Thereby saving England from its own most ill-informed elements, and also from some of its most reprehensible. Preventing our southern neighbour from being carried into confusion by the racist, xenophobic minority which the Leave campaign cultivated, and relied upon, to carry the day and win for it its hollow and empty victory.

Such a ‘re-alignment’ would also differentiate sincere and responsible ‘remain politicians’ from the opportunists who simply saw the referendum as a way to advance their own careers. And still do, as the Tory leadership contest amply demonstrates.

How can anyone in the Tory ranks who came out for ‘remain’ during the referendum want to have any part in a government that will implement ‘leave’?

How can a ‘remain’ proponent put their name forward, ten days after the result, to become the PM who will ensure that the UK leaves Euope? And such a person is going to ask us to believe in her, or him? When they clearly have no convictions at all?

It beggars belief.

The SNP at Westminster are bound to vote against any triggering of Clause 50, because the people of Scotland ARE sovereign; their wishes in the matter are clear, and their representatives are bound to represent them. That’s the contract.

MPs for English constituencies are not in the same situation at all. Because, in England, the parliament is sovereign there, not the people. So MPs for English constituencies are required and expected to exercise their own personal judgement on this matter, as on every other. The only considertion is what they think is best for the country.

The ‘ReMaIn Alignment’ MPs and the SNP MPs could and would both vote the same way: against triggering Clause 50. Each of the two groups would do so on the basis of two different sets of principles. But each would be acting quite correctly from within their own constitutional point of view. That is, within the constitutional assumptions on which they were elected by the people.

(This happens because the English constitution and the Scottish constitution – the two sets of constitutional assumptions which have always underlain, and which still do underlie the two polities that form the UK – are in fact substantially different, one from another. Which does not prevent Scottish and English MPs from combining with each other, as in the way described above, in a manner whereby each group remains faithful to its own specific principles and assumptions.)

If the SNP proposed or fostered such ideas they would no doubt be howled down by Leave supporters, and accused of trying to dominate England. But it would still be in the SNP’s best interests to do this.

And it would be completely consistent with their main aim here, which is to keep Scotland in the EU. The best way to do that is to keep England in the EU as well. And the whole of the UK.

The simplest and easiest way to retain Scottish membership of the EU is to prevent Brexit.

And it would be perfectly legal to do this. There is no legal necessity whatsoever for the Westminster parliament to act on the result of the June 23rd referendum.

Why should it do so, if a sufficient number of MPs judge that leaving the EU is not in the best interests of the UK?

The SNP has always wanted Scotland to be independent in Europe (for the past 30 or 40 years, at least). But it also, quite rightly, wants England and the rest of the UK to be in Europe along with Scotland, when Scotland does become independent.

That will ensure that there are no barriers against trade or the movement of people between Scotland and our southern neighbours. Which is good for everyone.

With all of the entities of the former UK in the EU, the border with England would remain as open (and unpoliced) as it is now. Something which is undoubtedly to the advantage of all of us, Scots and English alike, and everyone else as well.

Nicola Strurgeon was absolutely sincere when she said she did not want independence to come as a result of England (and Wales) voring to leave the EU. She really did not want our southern neighbours to vote ‘Leave’. Her campiagn for ‘Remain’ was not intended for Scotland only, but for the whole of the UK.

The ‘Leave’ vote in England is not in our interests, even if it does inadvertently lead to our having to achieve independence faster and sooner than the SNP envisaged. Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP leadership have always been aware of this. She knew the ‘Leave’ vote could happen, and was ready for it. She also knows that, whatever the new opportunities vis-a-vis independence, the anti-EU vote gives her more trouble, and a bigger headache, than a ‘Remain’ result ever would have done.

Nicola is no short-term opportunist (and neither is the SNP as a Party). Her chief aim is lasting and fruitful independence, which is something different from ‘independence at all costs’, or ‘no matter how’. This is long-term thinking, seeking to ensure that Scotland obtains independence in ‘the best possible way’ and ‘with the best possible results’. It is about the good of the Scottish population. Together with the whole of the SNP, she wants an independent Scotland to be able to maximise its possibilities and opportunities.

Scottish independence is also for the good of the world, which includes all our immediate neighbours. Something that is detrimental to England – as Brexit will be – is not a thing to be welcomed or fostered. Rather, it should be avoided, or circumvented, if at all possible.

I am certain Nicola Sturgeon took no pleasure in the Leave result in England, and expect she was as disturbed as any of us at some of the dark forces in English society that were unleashed to obtain it. We have no right to be complacent in this regard: similar forces exist here too, often with a specifically Scottish twist to them. Contrary to some of the media hype, they lie mainly if not entirely on the Unionsit side of the political divide. That does not exonerate those of us who identify as pro-independence. These forces will still exist after Scotland is independent, and legitimate ways will have to be found to defuse them or win them over, so that they never gain political influence here.

Like most of us, Nicola Sturgeon wants England and Scotland to be the best of friends – and the best of trading partners – after independence. And the way to ensure that is to keep England in the EU.

Since she is now exploring every way to keep Scotland in Europe, she must be considering moves that would stop Westminster from the folly of the course on which its main players have embarked, even those that campaigned for ‘Remain’. Since there are perfectly legal ways to avoid implementing the Leave vote, these ought to be examined, and pursued in the most reasonable and responsible ways available.

Scotland could do not only herself but also her southern neighbour a very big favour in this regard. England needs someone to save her from herself, and from her own worst excesses.

Maybe we, as Scots, even have a duty towards her in that regard. A great country like England should not be at the mercy of some of the darker forces that the campaign unleashed in favour of Leave. If fulfilling that duty leads to opprobrium being poured down upon us, so be it. We should not be happy to see madness take over anywhere in the world, and we should do what we can to prevent it.

As for the Big 3 Leaders of Leave – chancers every one of them, but worse than chancers – fraudsters.

There should be a way to prosecute them.

Just as there should be a way to declare the referndum result they so dubiously obtained invalid – as all frauds are.

The dictionary I have to hand defines ‘fraud’ in its first meaning as i) (in common usage): ‘deceit, trickery, cheating’ and ii) (in law): ‘intentional deception to cause a person to give up property or some lawful right’.

That would surely include hiding from people, especially the poorer sections of society, the fact that they are going to lose a lot of their human rights if we exit Europe, including in the field of employment.

Among the secondary meanings we find ‘constructive fraud’, which is a legal term. This is descibed as an ‘act or contract which, though not originating in any actual evil or fraudulent design, has a tendency to deceive or mislead other persons, to violate public or private confidence, or to impair or injure the public interests.’

With regard to the referendum, that sounds like an open and shut case to me. Among the synonyms the dictionary gives for ‘fraud’ we find ‘swindling’, ‘treachery’ and ‘treason’. Even that … perhaps!

Couldn’t someone raise an action against the leaders of the Leave campaign? Or is misleading voters and injuring the public interest all perefctly OK? Is this what modern democracies – or at least ‘democracies like ours’ – made of? … Deceit, trickery, lies … The forces of darkness … Unleashed for you … !

O/T

Some excellent articles in the National yesterday highlighting issues that you’ll never come across in the paper press, hear about on STV and the BBC of course such as …

‘Junior Medics choosing Scotland after Strikes …. Massive rise in foundation level doctors applying North of the Border following disputes in England.’

You wont hear a peep either about Better Together Westminster continuing to make a concerted effort to depopulate Scotland, particularly in the Highlands and Islands, through for example their immigration and economic policies. Their latest ‘project’, that is extending the submarine range off our west Highland coast, is going to cost jobs and will no doubt see people moving away from the area: And of course as we all know the ‘sub situation’ is blocking getting access to our oil off the West coast. I wonder what Rooth the Mooth has to say about that?

……………………………………

MSP slams MOD for ‘ill informed ban …. Local prawn industry could lose £600,000 a year.’

AN MSP has written to the Ministry of Defence (MoD) blasting their “distant and ill-informed” decision to extend submarine ranges off Scotland’s west Highland coast – amid warnings that the local prawn fishing industry could see earnings plummet by as much as 20 per cent……

The restrictions, which were signed into effect with a recent byelaw, will result in fishing vessels being banned from operating in a sea area ten times the size of the city of London…….

The MoD has written off a potentially devastating £600,000 in lost earnings to the local industry as insignificant – mere small change.

“But in actual fact, we’re talking about people’s entire way of life – their livelihood based around a vital local industry…..”

link to thenational.scot

…………………………………………

‘Letters II: Scots fishermen are in denial about who killed off their industry’

”……… Today, fish stocks are recovering to healthy levels, but only thanks to EU intervention. Had the Scottish fleet been allowed to continue as it was the end-game would have been the same for the fleet, but there would have been no fish stocks today and no recovery. Many fishing families fished ethically, but if fishermen – especially those from that era who are blaming the EU while waving a Union Jack – need to point the finger at anyone for the tragic demise of the industry and our communities, then I suggest they take a good long look in the mirror.”

link to thenational.scot

………………………………………

‘George Kerevan: Let’s make sure the numbers are right when indyref2 comes.’

”To secure a majority for Scottish independence, the second time around, we need to find convincing answers to a number of questions. And find those answers in the next 30 months or so, before we are dragged out of the EU against Scotland’s wishes. Let me lay out the areas where we need to put forward bold solutions. Note: I’m not offering definitive answers here – that’s beyond my pay grade – merely ring-fencing where research has to be focused……

Assuming keeping sterling is off the agenda, we need an alternative. Even if we wanted to, joining the Euro would be a long-term project because we would have to align our economy and exchange rate with the Eurozone’s, and that would take years. Which leaves us with creating our own Scottish pound (or whatever name you fancy). To avoid disruption to trade, contracts and pensions we would likely need to set the exchange rate at parity with the rUK pound sterling, at least for a period. Ultimately, of course, a Scottish currency gives us the flexibility to devalue to boost exports and productivity.

The issue for immediate consideration is the mechanics of creating a new currency quickly. That’s not impossible: the Baltic States did it expeditiously after they declared independence from the old Soviet Union in 1991. And Scotland is better supplied with the banking expertise to create the necessary new financial institutions. But if we go down this road, we can’t wait till the Saltire is run up over Edinburgh Castle before designing those institutions: a central bank, (probably) a currency board, and financial regulators ……

….. Incidentally, much of the Nordic nations investment in capital projects that improve competitiveness comes from the jointly-owned Nordic Investment Bank (NIB). The NIB offers long-term loans and guarantees on competitive market terms to its clients in the private and public sectors. It raises funds by borrowing on the international capital markets and NIB bonds enjoy the highest credit rating. Thought: an independent Scotland should apply to join the NIB…….”

link to thenational.scot

………………………………………

Declaration of Arbroath to become a Unesco ‘Memory of the World’

‘This document’s influence stretches much further than medieval Britain.’

link to thenational.scot

………………………………

@socrates Macsporran 07:13

I suppose it all depends on what form independence takes. If we seceed from the UK, then an independent country of Scotland will remain part of a United Kingdom (no debt, no assets). However, if we repeal the act of union with the Kingdom of England, then we become the Kingdom of Scotland, which means no United Kingdom.(We’ll take our share of debt and share of assets).

Personally, I’d go for repeal and become the Kingdom of Scotland. Which would mean we have our own coronation, our own king. I would feel uncomfortable about sharing our monarch with another kingdom. I mean, look how well it all worked out last time!

When I say Kingdom of Scotland, it could more correctly be called the Kingdom of the Scots, since we as the people of Scotland are sovereign. (Thank you Declaration of Arbroath!)Our King should be one of us!

Who would be our King, or Queen? I would suggest we look to history for a possible answer. From the Irish/Scots side any male desceneded from a previous monarch could be eligable to become king, but from our Pictish side it was often preferred to be descened through the female line. Google “tanistry” for more information.

Taking these principles, we could have thousands, possibly many thousands, of people who could have a claim to the throne. Surely we can find one person from this who could and would become a good monarch for Scotland. Someone who would fight for us, our land, our ways, our culture, our kingdom.

Take the best of the past, make the best of the future. … without losing who we are and what we are.

We are Scots and THIS is OUR kingdom.

The UK State has failed. The Unionist politicians have failed and are ruining the British/NI economy. The majority in Britain/NI want to stay in the EU. Scotland must stay in the EU and become Independent to protect the Scottish economic and political society which does have a different culture and outlook from the rest of the UK/NI.

galamcennalath @9.57.

Thanks for the link to the Liam McIlvanney article. I’m sure his old dad would have been proud.

He was a Big Man and much missed.

ITV/YouGov poll – support for Welsh independence within the EU (excluding Don’t Knows):

Yes: 35%
No: 65%

thats up by a factor of 3

looks like our welsh cousins are changing direction

’bout time too

Chilcot Report, 2,600,000 words

War and Peace is 600,000,

Bible is 800,000,

cost of Chilcot £12,000,000

price of hard copy £767 each,

under Maxwellisation persons who are to be criticised in an official report can respond prior to publication, based on details of the criticism received in advance,

so every one criticised in Chilcot will already know what it says about them and will have had the ability to contest and remove criticism prior to publication.

I’d prefer to look at the Republic of Ireland for a post independence solution for our head of state. Their presidents have little power and election campaigns don’t cost the earth. Not all presidents have the same role; it depends on the political set up and we would inherit a similar type to Ireland. They simply replaced the figurehead monarchy with a president.
Once elected, Irish presidents have a term of 7 years. I can’t remember if there is any restriction on how many terms they can serve, although I know De Valera was president for a long time. Maybe we should also note their more recent presidents have been excellent and recognised worldwide, Mary Robinson and Mary McAleese in particular.

cearc

Guardian of Scotland: was that not the title Sir William Wallace held? Nothing against the idea, but the history of the job isn’t good. I don’t see the 21st century English hanging, drawing and quartering the holder of the position, but, they wouldn’t like it.

Lenny Hartley:

I remember, as a young lad, watching that “coronation” ceremony on TV back in 1953. HM, in a black coat and a wee hat, wandered into the Assembly Rooms, was presented with the Honours of Scotland. She touched the crown, then wandered back out – hardly a coronation, but, it did show where we stood in the eyes of the Establishment.

Next time, I want a wee bit more ceremonial.

Given that George I, Elector of Hanover was something like 56th in line for the throne when offered it in 1701 – the 55 ahead of him were Roman Catholics – we will not be short of potential monarchs from the Stuart line. That said, we had maybe make sure Rangers are playing in the English League when we go, otherwise the Sons of William might well be a tad unhappy at the new monarch.

I recall reading somewhere that the Duke of Buccleugh has a good claim to the throne, but, given the past record of the Scottish nobles we should maybe steer clear of any of them, or we would be back to full-scale clan warfare.

Anent the Duke of Rothesay’s choice of name when he gets the top job, I have certainly read of a liking for George VII, but, I also seen a mention of King Arthur. With suggestions that some of the Arthurian legend points to a Scots, or would that be Pictish? connection – why not.

Will @ 9.55
I don’t think it is our business to Save/interfere with the English.
That’s the reason the union doesn’t work for Scotland.
They have to get on with it for themselves.
All we in Scotland should be offering is friedship.
We need to concentrate on doing what the voter’s here want.
Clearly the English electorate want to forge another path,and I for one think they are entitled to do so.
They are just not entitled to force Scotland along with them.
We should Infact act like a sovereign and limited ourselves to advise and caution but stay the hell out of their politics.

Slightly O/T, but the news about the Declaration of Arbroath reminded me of the work done before the 2014 referendum on a constitution for an Independent Scotland. After the 45% vote, all seemed to go quiet on this topic, but I feel this is something which should now be on the Scottish government’s “to do” list, and possibly quite near the top of it, given the rapid progress of events.

Does anyone know what is happening on this front?

Call me Dave and Socrates Mcsporran , an American Morman 2nd cousin recently got in touch with the family and presented a booking tracing the family line through my maternal Grandmother. He claims that I ‘ my siblings and cousins were 33rd generation direct descendants from William the Conk.

I emailed to thank him for the work he had put in and he reckoned he had got as far back as king Tut, I said wonderful you should be able to get us as far back as Adam and Eve from there and he said that was his plan, ain’t heard from him since so guess I can only claim linaege from King Tut 🙂

So I have probably as much of a claim than Betty’s offspring. Gotta say if offered I would take the job on as long as I didn’t have to move to Edinburgh!

Whoops, wrong thread!

Liz G and others above: I don’t think we radically disagree. Scotland must do what is right and best for herself. At the same time, insofar as it may be possible, that includes doing what we can to keep England and rUK in the EU. Because that IS good for Scotland, including an independent Scotland, in the long run.

That is in line with what Nicola Sturgeon meant a) when she campaigned to keep the whole of the current UK in the EU during the referendum and, b) when, after the result was announced, she said she was not approaching the situation primarily from the perspective of how to use it to obtain Scotland’s independence but – primarily – in terms of how to keep Scotland within the EU.

Nicola is quite celar that if continued EU membership can be done from within the UK, she’ll go along with that. Gaining independence will remain the ultimate objective, but what she wants is ‘independence within Europe’, in accordance with constant and long-standing SNP policy. When she said a new referendum for independence was now ‘on the table’ again as a distinct possibility, she specified that this would be done IF it turned out to be the only way to keep Scotland in the EU. Meanwhile, she said she would not pull the trigger on a new independence referendum UNTIL all other avenues for keeping Scotland inside the EU had been explored, and were exhausted.

My post was entirely in keeping with that policy, and supportive of it. I think it very likely that the ONLY way to keep Scotland in the EU without calling a new referendum on independence would be if the British government in Westminster renounced on its intention to invoke Clause 50, or was defeated when it attempted to do so. The SNP has every right to foster and encourage such a scenario, in order to maintain Scotland’s best interests. Doing so would also be a proper and principled stand, as my post tried to point out.

The fact is that the SNP, much cannier and saner than the gambling-addicted Cameron, did not want to be rushed into a new independence referendum too early. It very sensibly does not want to do it until it is sure it’s going to win. Secondly, when Scotland is independent in Europe she always wanted England and the rest of the UK to be good-neighbour allies within the same EU. That is perfect common sense: we don’t want a psychological war of attrition and resentment going on along the land border we share with our southern neighbours.

The SNP policy in all these regards is eminently sane and sensible, and we should be supportive of it. Such a wonderful contrast to the ocean of nonsense which is currently engulfing Westminster. Why would we not want to do what we can to give a helping hand to our nearest neighbour and future close ally, in order to lift them out of the mire in which they are currently sinking? There are plenty of sane people in England who would eventually thank us for it.

We are not anti-English; we are pro-European. And we happen to think that England is and should remain a European country as well, along with us.

What’s good for Scotland is good for all of us, and an England in Europe, once more restored to sanity, is one of these good things.

In fact, I doubt very much that we will be able to persuade current Westminster politicians to abandon implementing Clause 50. But we should try. That is the morally right thing to do, for everyone’s sake.

Once we have tried to achieve this result and failed, and once it is clear that the only way to keep Scotland in Europe is to hold a new referendum on independence and win it – then, of course, that is what the SNP must and will do.

If, as I expect, that does finally turn out to be what happens, that course of action will have my full support. But Nicola is absolutely right to explore all other avenues first, and exhaust all the possible alternatives, before concluding that that is the only way for us to proceed. And she will do so, even though she will be more aware than some of us of the risk involved – it could still turn out to be just a little bit too soon. As Cameron now knows, there is never any absolute guarantee of winning any referendum.

Will
If you are still reading this thread.
I am writing this just after Chilcot has been released.
A warning, I think, about while it is acceptable to have and express an opinion about what another country should do is fine.
But to take action -ANY-action to ensure they move in the direction you want,despite what their people want is just plain wrong.Therefore!!!
It is not Scotland’s role to “save ” England from it’s self,no matter how much we believe “it’s the right thing to do”.