Separatists and their squillions
So we weren’t expecting this. The Telegraph have sent us a reply after we complained to IPSO about this. It’s worth a read, so we thought we’d let you see it.
“The article is clearly an opinion piece, in which the writer sets out his general views of the Scottish independence referendum on its first anniversary. It is not a detailed analysis of the relative spending of the various factions in the referendum, and indeed it mentions funding only in passing (“The separatists had squillions more money”).
Although the Electoral Commission numbers you cite are accurate, they cover only the period 18 Dec 2013 to 18 Sept 2014 (the “Accounting Period”). Campaigning on Scottish independence pre-dated this; the referendum date was announced in March 2013, and it was known that the SNP would organise a referendum on an independent Scotland as early as Feb 2010, when it published a draft bill on its proposed referendum.
Arguably, campaigning for independence began even earlier. The Accounting Period figures are therefore not a complete picture of funds available to or spent by the various factions.
Further, we note that the phrase at issue makes no mention of the Electoral Commission, nor of officially monitored donations or spending. It also talks of money the separatists ‘had’, not specifically their income or expenditure.
Readers would understand that the writer was making a loose estimate of the separatist movement’s financial potential for campaigning, not just during the Accounting Period but also prior to it.
In this light, evidence of both the separatists’ income and spending going back to at least Feb 2010 are relevant to an assessment of the phrase’s accuracy.
We note in particular the following:
• The Scottish government’s ‘Scotland’s Future’ document of Nov 2013, which was criticised by a report of the Commons Public Administration Select Committee for “not uphold[ing] the factual standards expected of a UK Government White Paper. Parts of it should not have been included in a government publication and this raised questions about the use of public money for partisan purposes.”
The report clearly stated: “Civil servants should not to [sic] carry out ministers’ wishes, if they are being asked to use public funds to promote the agenda of a political party, as was evident in this case.” It is not unreasonable to view the £1.25m spent on the document by the SNP government as an element of the separatist campaign’s spending.
• As was widely reported (in the Herald and Guardian), Chris and Colin Weir had donated some £4.5 million to either the SNP or Yes Scotland before the Accounting Period. In addition the SNP received £918,000 in 2011 from a bequest made by Edwin Morgan, Scotland’s former Makar (Poet Laureate). By contrast, the Better Together campaign had received only £2.7m in donations before the Accounting Period.
In donations alone, therefore, separatists are known to have received a total of some £8.2m, compared with £7m received by ‘No’ campaigners. Similarly, adding the Scotland’s Future cost of £1.25m to ‘Yes’ campaign spending during the Accounting Period yields a total of £4.35m. This compares with £3.54 spent by the ‘No’ campaign overall.
It was therefore not inaccurate for the writer to say that separatists ‘had’ more money. The use of the word ‘squillions’ is clearly hyperbolic, and in the context of an opinion article readers would not infer that the margin of difference was very large.
We do not therefore believe there there is any significant inaccuracy, as you say. I trust this is of some assistance.
Yours sincerely,
Jess McAree
Head of Editorial Compliance
Telegraph Media Group”
It’s an extraordinary case to make. If we’re talking about the “financial potential for campaigning”, then clearly the No side had all the advantages. The four Unionist parties raised £20 million in a single quarter of 2014, making the SNP’s coffers look very threadbare and cobwebby indeed by comparison, even with the Weirs on board.
(Weirdly, the Telegraph is comparing apples and oranges by including ALL donations to the SNP, whether they were expressly for the referendum or not, but only the official declared donations to the No campaign.)
The notion that the Scottish Government used some public money for the White Paper in the furtherance of its goals is also a bizarre red herring, considering the avalanche of “Scotland Analysis” papers and pro-Union leaflets and booklets the UK government spent taxpayers’ cash on. How much exactly? We’re not allowed to know.
Finally, while the paper is quite correct to note that “squillions” is a “hyperbolic” term, to then say that readers would interpret it to mean only a small margin of difference is quite a curious misunderstanding of the meaning of the word “hyperbolic”. The whole point of hyperbole is to imply that something is bigger than it really is.
We await IPSO’s judgement with interest.
And the award for ‘The Most Uses Of The Word “Separatist” In A Single Article’ goes to…
As you note Rev isn’t it interesting that the Torygraph only mentions Scottish Government spending and as you so rightly say, what about all the leaflets etc produced by the Westminster establishment. Seems yet again it is one law for Westminster and another for Scottish Government and what about Westminster’s top Civil Servants giving out lies as FACTS at so called ‘briefings’?
Auld Rock
Ugh. It never fails to amaze me when people seem to think that it is better to say anything at all in defence, rather than just acknowledging the “error” and amending their ways.
I suppose there is a certain skill in producing twaddle in self justification. But it is not a good look
“this raised questions about the use of public money for partisan purposes.”
Scottish Civil servants had to be 100% neutral while Westminster Civil servants received rewards for openly campaigning with the UK government/Better Together campaign.
“Squillions” is a “hyperbolic” term but “more” is not. Torygraph tells lies and they employ liars, shock.
We got hit with much the same attack from Aberdeen City Council when they sent out 2014’s council tax bill, including with it their really weird letter from unionist council leaders Barnie Rubble and Wullie Flintstone, telling everyone in Aberdeen to vote NO or else.
Hmm, yes. The matter of fact “separatists” usage throughout tells us all we really need to know about the responding author. It actually starts as a decent reply before descending into frothy mouthed anti SNP rhetoric.
See next time, if squillions are what are required for the really nasty separatists to win then we raise squillions.
Everything in their eyes boils down to how much eh?
The next referendum will be won with squillions of passion, do you think Alky Cochrane or the Telegraph can measure that?
“and it was known that the SNP would organise a referendum on an independent Scotland as early as Feb 2010, when it published a draft bill on its proposed referendum.”
Interesting, the Telegraph has put the lie to the unionists who used to post that the SNP did NOT have an Indy referendum in their manifesto for the 2011 elections.
seperatists seperatists seperatists seperatists seperatists seperatists seperatists seperatists………………see we can do that too! 🙂
Don’t you know?
Public money spent by the ‘separatist’ controlled Scottish Government is money wasted. Money spent my Her Majesty’s loyal government was used for the most noble cause imaginable – the maintenance of this glorious Union!
And, the SNP are up to no good and trying to damage what is good and wholesome. While those patriotic Unionst parties only get involved in the furtherance of all things decent.
Of course there is one rule for them, and one for us. That’s the BritNat way.
Glad virtually no one reads the Telegraph in Scotland!
So it is clear that “loose estimate” is not the same as “lying”
(noun – the telling of lies, or false statements; untruthfulness:
Synonyms: falsehood, falsity, mendacity, prevarication
adjective
telling or containing lies; deliberately untruthful; deceitful; false:
Synonyms: deceptive, misleading, mendacious, fallacious; sham, counterfeit. )
to the Telegraph, I wonder where their definition of materiality went to…
i get sick of hearing/Reading SEPARATIST… The land, the People and the animals will be in exactly the same place they were left before a successful yes Vote, there is NOT going to be a 2 mile wide canyon along our borders …. we will be INDEPENDENT not SEPARATED it does my heed in do the Unionists not Know the difference between the words ? pmsl
INDEPENDENT
?nd??p?nd(?)nt/Submit
adjective
1. free from outside control; not subject to another’s authority.
“an independent nuclear deterrent”
synonyms: freethinking, individualistic, unconventional, maverick; More
2. not depending on another for livelihood or subsistence.
“I wanted to remain independent in old age”
synonyms: self-sufficient, self-supporting, self-sustaining, self-reliant, self-standing, able to stand on one’s own two feet.
SEPARATE
verb
past tense: separated; past participle: separated
?s?p?re?t/
1. cause to move or be apart.
“police were trying to separate two rioting mobs”
synonyms: part, split (up), break up, move apart, divide; archaicsunder
“police were trying to separate two rioting mobs”
2. divide into constituent or distinct elements.
“the processed milk had separated into curds and whey”
synonyms: isolate, set apart, put to one side,
@drekken23 I was thinking the same thing, while reading through I had a vision of them declaring the Yes campaign as the separatists, in paper, online and on the BBC to hammer down with.
“The article is clearly an opinion piece, in which the writer sets out his general views of the Scottish independence referendum on its first anniversary. It is not a detailed analysis of the relative spending of the various factions in the referendum, and indeed it mentions funding only in passing (“The separatists had squillions more money”).
I have just adopted the Telegraph’s idea of TRUTH and can now proudly announce to the world that I have squillions and squillions of pounds in my bank account! Hooray! 🙂
*Checks bank account*
Erm … you know what I said about having squillions in my bank account folks … well … erm … would you mind … ever so much … ignoring that please? 😉
I’ve just checked my account and have exactly £1.23 and a half pence in my account!
Oh well it was nice while it lasted! 😀
Umm, ignore previous posting, what the unionists were complaining about was the “second half of the erm” thing. Ooops.
Rev,
You can’t argue with people who produce propaganda. It’s called propaganda because it doesn’t require logic or reason or fact based evidence to create it.
It’s basically assertions, often completely made up, in order to further the political aims & objective of those who produce it.
Consequently, when any of it is put under scrutiny, the producers of propaganda rely on the same, make it up as you go along reasoning, they used to produce the propaganda in the first place.
The worst offender is the BBC but if it were in a baton relay race, there are plenty of others willing to run along with them, to help carry the message.
The Telegraph is one of them.
It is frankly laughable for someone in ‘editorial compliance’ (have they ever met Alan Cochrane?)at the Telegraph, to suggest that a term of hyperbole means something small. Seriously, this is about basic English comprehension and understanding.
A frankly bizarre response from a paper like the Telegraph.
Of course nobody has yet estimated costs for the ten day long 24/7 anti independence propaganda provided by the Westminster controlled state media puppet, the BBC, on behalf of the NO campaign.
Should we include the bribes Cameron gave to Obama and other world leaders to say Scotland would be better in the union? In terms of trade deals, the No budget probably runs to a few hundred billion pounds.
Do they not understand just how offensive the use (particularly constant use) of the word ‘separatist’ is?
Obviously not…or then again maybe it’s quite deliberate.
Now I know why they ignore most of these requests. Better to stay silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt
@ Mik 5.16
That definition of independent’ should be put on billboards the length and breadth.
How could anyone not want that?
Just a wee aside here.
Is the Telegraph telling … erm … porkies … to show their avid support for the bacon loving Prime Minister David Comebacon by any chance? 😀
http://news.stv.tv/north/1329218-police-find-insufficient-evidence-in-lord-sewel-drugs-allegations/
Our imperial masters are above the law anyone, any law. Oik oik.
Off topic, I was reading just now about Project Fear in Catalyunya, specificially, they’ll be thrown out of the EU (Catalyunya would be a net contributor, I should think).
When indyref2 comes around, I think we need to get non-EU members Norway and Iceland, our northern neighbours, to say they will support Scotland joining a northern economic zone or possibly the EFTA, ready to counter the usual noise from the EU after being leaned on by Downing Street.
What I don’t get is this. Angus Robertson said that the SNP needed to change its policy on NATO precisely because Norway and Iceland were always asking about the defence policy of an independent Scotland, expressing their fears, etc.
So why didn’t the SNP call in the favours from Norway and Iceland when they must have known what noise we would hear out of that Spanish drone, whose pronouncements were never off the BBC and corporate press?
I think for indyref2 we need to forestall all these things, not just be reacting after they have been made. Yes, the SNP would counter with “our laws are already in line with EU legislation…. they would not seriously want us outside…”, but it was always late in the day and came after the “Scotland would be thrown out of the EU” headlines.
And get the currency option sorted by saying we would have a Scottish pound, which would start off at parity, but would obviously over time appreciate (as petrocurrency) against rUK pound, so Scottish pensioners WITH THEIR PENSIONS SECURED could go on a spending spree south of the border.
If there is one thing that will work on the blue-rinse imaproudscotbut bowling brigade, it is the sound and smell of money. It’s who they are and it should have been so easy if only they had been leafleted (or provided with a Wee Silver Book).
I bet the legal advice that claimed Scotland was extinguished in 1707 cost squillions.
I have a feeling that the telegraph are trolling with that reply, they can’t be serious. The over use of the word separatist is meant to offend too. I also got the impression the girl writing the response for the telegraph has having a right giggle or really prudish and as such may have felt really proud of herself for that really pathetic attempt at a response. Either way says all you need to know about that excuse for a newspaper.
Just wanted to say “I love yous all”
Even the crabbit ones
It’s not quite the record use of ‘separatist’. Johann Lamont once used the word 432,657 times in one of her monosyllables.
Then again, as she could only mispronounce it ‘shhepratisht’ then I guess this may be the record after all.
When Jess McAree was typing up her piece did she have Alan Cochrane standing behind her telling her to use “separatist” instead of Yes, SNP, Scottish Government etc
Loosen up, folks. This is The Telegraph you are getting het up over.
What do you expect? Truth, integrity, accuracy?
Get wise and know your enemy
@Kenny
From the Scotsman of all places, 12 Nov 2012:
“SCOTLAND would be welcomed into the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) if it votes for independence and then leaves the EU, a spokesman for the body has claimed.
EFTA senior information officer Tore Gronningsater said: Scotland could apply, but it would be a question of whether the EFTA members would like to see more members.”
If I am being frank, and not being Alan Cochrane because I am trying to be honest, the use of the term ‘separatist’ seems unprofessional to me in such a letter
Jess McAree is a small-minded, bigoted arsehole.
@Kenny
Oh and there’s this from Scott Minto (sneekyboy) in wings:
http://wingsoverscotland.com/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-fish/
Wow. Those lawyers must have briefed Bill Clinton and his redefining of the word ‘is’.
They start off by making the point that the phrase “The separatists had squillions more money” was the only reference to funding and made merely in the passing… then they go on to detail the ‘squillions’ of facts, relationships and nuances which that simple phrase encapsulates.
I’m sure all of that analysis must have flashed through Cochrane’s critical facilty before he penned that all-encompassing phrase of his.
It is in fact a masterful display of succinctness.
The man clearly has more talent than I envisaged.
They like to call us separatists.
We are too polite and call them Unionists.
They don’t want to be in a shared Union. They want to rule and control Scotland for their interests. We have several months of WM behaviour to prove that! More to come!
We should call them what they are – Imperialists !
Readers would understand that the writer was making-
a complete Arse of themselves while treating the reader as
a gullible halfwit.
Of course they will all support each other to ensure Hooray Henry
and his chums keep most of the country’s cash and control of the media and any lip service ombudsmen.
Nice to see that another corrupt Red Tory Lord has been found
not guilty.
He is clearly identified hiring prostitutes and snorting cocaine.
In spite of statements from those present, Film footage, and audio tracks which. in the real world outside of Westminster might have given the Police a wee clue as just how guilty he might be, it seem he couldn’t have done it????
We need to cut loose Scotland from this Westminster Mafia.
Just heard on STV news that Richard Walker has resigned as editor of the Sunday Herald!
WTF
The Rev wrote:
“We await IPSO’s judgement with interest.”
Dear Mr.Campbell,
We acknowledge receipt of your most recent complaint and can assure you it will be given our complete attention in due course.
WHAhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Kind regards.
Porky Hambone.
Kenny,
“So why didn’t the SNP call in the favours from Norway and Iceland”
Iceland is the only country in the world that openly backed Scottish independence.
Thank you Iceland. An independent Scotland will be one of your best friends.
Unlike Gordon Brown and his rotten to the core UK which used anti-terrorist legislation against you, the most peaceful nation on earth.
I am not aware of Norway making any anti-independence comment.
What john king and galamcennalath said, x1000.
I’m sure Jess McAree is an anagram of something, but frankly, I can’t be bothered.
They get away with murder, don’t they? And Lord Sewell is completely innocent, of course. Must have been bicarbonate of soda after all. I think it’s great the selfless work he does with fallen women. He even clears up their indigestion. What a guy!
Doesn’t bode well for Fozzygate.
‘Imperialists’
That is spot on.
https://twitter.com/jessmcaree protects his tweets. I thought he was a torygirl not boy.
What price could you put on the free advertising from the unbalanced media ?
The National didn’t exist then. We had newsstands of one-sided unionist propaganda in the run-up to the referendum.
IPSO = The International Pig Stuffing Organisation.
Jess is in linkdin though
Summary
I’m the Head of Editorial Compliance at Telegraph Media Group. I am a passionate advocate of press freedom, and believe it should never be compromised by political interference and/or statutory regulation. I also believe in responsible journalism, and was involved in the creation of the media regulator IPSO. My job is to enforce the IPSO Editors Code and help/advise Telegraph journalists to observe both its letter and spirit.
I have 11 years of experience delivering and commissioning editorial training to add to my 15 years’ experience of journalism in newspapers, magazines, websites and customer/contract publishing. I have previously specialised in technical training, media law, social media, content marketing, editing and writing, video editing, SEO, web analytics and site building.
But
Jess says “I also believe in responsible journalism, and was involved in the creation of the media regulator IPSO. My job is to enforce the IPSO Editors Code and help/advise Telegraph journalists to observe both its letter and spirit.”
Torygraph dude that calls anyone voting YES a separatist also set up IPSO and enforce the editors code, wot he helped set up. Only in toryboy teamGB.
So
That doesnt have the stench of back scratching corruption at all, Jess:D
Fact – Jess McAree is a man.
Fact – He studied at King’s College London.
Opinion – He is fud who is not in favour of “separatism’, even though he used it SQUILLIONS of times in his letter.
and the bbc feel its perfectly okay to use Jockistan to describe Scotland
https://twitter.com/ScottishLit/status/646354154630344704
The bit that stands out for me is with reference to the Scotland’s Future document. Para 7 & 8 of letter.
Ref report of the Common’s Public Administration Select Committee.
The report clearly stated ” Civil servants should not to (sic) carry out ministers wishes, if they are being asked to use public funds to promote the agenda of a political party, as was evident in this case”.
They don’t do irony do they. Scottish government set out case for independence, establishment meant to keep out and leave it to Scot’s to decide. Then establishment decide to use civil servants, and the treasury to pump out their propaganda and in most cases outright lies.
Oh well, separatists bad, bad, bad, very very bad. Lying toerags on the other side good. Use all the civil servants, who are meant to be neutral and that’s ok.
I better check the buttons on the back o ma heid.
The fact that this needed to be done highlights to me why we need Independence.
We keep facing down a corrupt, self-serving establishment when we could be getting on with building an Independent country.
Perhaps there’s a suitable epithet for non-separatists.
Ah, yes of course – Klingons.
“IPSO = The International Pig Stuffing Organisation.”
Stoker, does this mean David Cameron’s career has finally come to a dead end?
The Crombie’s already on…
Amazingly enough on his Linkedin page he claims to believe passionately in RESPONSIBLE journalism.
I wonder if that was before he joined the Telegraph?
So in conclusion, Jess the torygraph toryboy and has basically sent WoS the IPSO findings on this press compliant, but I could be wrong. Jess will no doubt be enforcing the IPSO Editors Code and help/advise Telegraph journalists to observe both its letter and spirit.
“We do not therefore believe there there is any significant inaccuracy, as you say. I trust this is of some assistance.
Yours sincerely,
IPSO.
A waste of time and space.
To translate:
Look you Sweaties,
We are the Masters, You lost, so we can write and say what we like about you. We own you, we will tell you when you can go – understand.
To put it into a language you might understand: We Arra Peepul.
Yours sincerely,
The Torygraph
The Telegraph tells lies, period.
Shabby paper these days…although always right wing it used to be a good paper.
So… the constant referral to ‘separatists’ infers that this response is just an opinion piece.
As a reader, I understand that the author’s loose attempts at arse-covering are being made up as he goes along.
Maybe you should ask him, Rev, to give a factual answer instead of his opinion or is he actually stupid enough to state this as the official “opinion” of this tory rag.
What a condescending patronising cunt. There. I think that covers it.
You’re welcome everyone.
Maybe I am being pig headed no offence mr., Cameron but I find this all to much to take in but then what does a seperarist like me know?
Cochrane is a liar. The Telegraph, tax evading (£Billions) owners the crooked Non Dom Barclay Brother illegally try to influence the UK political results. Pay no taxes in the UK on vast earning – £Billions. Live in a private Isle they own off the English coast. Cochrane got a bonus (tax evaded?) on the NO Referendum result. Disgusting crooks. Their illegal actions are dire. Immoral. UIKP supporters?
Another illiterate ‘reporter’ who struggles with Maths, Statistics and Morality.
The Funding for final Ref agreed period was £1.5Million each. The YES campaign spent £1.5Million. BT spend £4.5Million. £3Million coming from donors out with Scotland. (Against the terms of agreement). The Purdah period was broken incessantly by Westminster. The ‘decision was for the people of Scotland’?
Brown lied, Cameron lied, Clegg lied, Osbourne lied. Alexander lied. Every Unionist politician lied. The Treasury lied. Every interference was committed.
The word “eperatists” is used by unionists the same way as “unionists” is used by us “seperatists” :).
It doesn’t bother me what language is used as it shows ,I think, that people have began thinking for themselves. I have seen and heard it used often when applied to Scots yes voters,even by Al Jazeera and others.
* seperatists
How much is a pro british nationalist and anti Scottish nationalist news piece in the uk state broadcaster worth and cost?
How much does it cost to employee the so called journalists and publish the biased nonsense the british media write and distribute within Scotland?
Seperatists ? The use of the word no longer bothers me, I’ve been called worse , it does show the rampant ignorance of the unionists , Does that make me as bad? or is that the Ying and Yang of it.
However it did occur to me with the use of the word so often that Jess McAree is actually Woking John
Ah think Jess McAree has been Separated from her clothing she,s laid herself bare.
A lot of UK political Parties donors totally wasted their money. The LibDems/Labour Parties results. @ Pigtrotters.
A lot of UK political Parties donors totally wasted their money. The LibDems/Labour Parties results. @ Pigtrotters.
A lot of UK political Parties donors totally wasted their money. The LibDems/Labour Parties results. @ Pigtrotters.
*separatists, got spelling right this time.
@Kenny
If the Scotpound appreciated significantly relative to sterling then pensioners on UK govt pensions would get fewer Scotpounds for their pensions. That is how it works.
It will take several decades for Scottish only pensioners to retire. This is not an argument against a Scotpound, just reality.
One would hope the Scottish govt would top pensions up in that situation.
Note also that a strong currency makes your exports more expensive which can impact jobs. Be careful what you wish for.
Fcuk Them
Just an opinion
Slightly O/T but on the subject of newspapers.
Richard Walker just resigned from the Sunday Herald….
https://archive.is/pR5iu
More concerning is are the other cuts.
Hopefully this will not mean bad news for “The National”.
I had a strange discussion about ‘seperation’ with an EU skeptic Unionist.
They said its ok for UK to separate from EU as the institutions of EU are not working for the UK.
I smiled and walked away.
@Kenny
Good post, seems sensible to me before next ref we get some backing in advance, same with the currency issue.
Next time will be different, there will not be a next time unless we are certain of victory. Institutions will have to look at us in a different light then.
Looking forward to the next time, bring it on.
I’ve just ordered the new book by Chris Cairns. You know, the one filled with seperatist cartoons.
O/T
Scottish Team 3 British Team 0 .. magic!
O T Polish striker lewandowski has just scored 5 goals in 9 mins against wolfburg after coming on as substitute
O T Polish striker lewandowski has just scored 5 goals in 9 mins for bayern against wolfsburg after coming on as substitute
i cannot be the only person here who thinks this response was designed to offend…….
It is worded to ramp up the annoyance level sentence by sentence and can only be a fishing mission. It’s whole aim IMHO is to attract the irresponsible faction of us “Seperatists” to make poorly judged responses which they could then play to the audience with……
Don’t rise to it.
Their circulation in scotland is down to the odd Tory and Alastair Carmichael.
I’m not offended…..I’m amazed they think they can gain anything positive out of it.
“Separatists”
It would be funny if these idiots read what I’m about to say, and went into a total jerk of consternation and confusion, because the irony of their situation is that while they use the word to try and put us down, effectively comparing us to angry fighting violent rebels throughout the world in one word, what they are in fact doing with that word is denying the UK Government’s position on Scotland’s Independence, and supporting the Scottish Government’s one. The dreaded YESNP. Oh what fun!
I don’t intend going into details though I expect Robert Peffers will understand where I’m coming from. Better to let them stew in their own meat juices, such as you get from spit-roasted pig a la Cameron.
The Carmichael case is to an extent about perception weighed against intention, and I wonder if all these Unionist commentators could be helping to seal the deal for Scotland v the rUK, (or whatever it calls itself), in favour of Scotland, after we vote YES in Indyref2? Now that would indeed be the Revenge of the Separatists.
Fire off another letter of complaint Rev,
I get the impression from the tone of their reply, that they are ready to do a runner on this, if they are pushed.
Thanks to those who responded to my Off-Topic post, do not want to hijack the thread, of course. Thanks Muscleguy for pointing out UK gov pensions would buy LESS Scottish pounds if it depreciated, did not think of that!
I was mainly thinking of how to get the blue-rinse imaproudscotbut bowling brigade to see the advantages of YES. And it would not even mean lying to them, because the economic argument is clear (in my opinion).
Of course, a strong Scottish pound would effect exports. But our exports are maybe overall in the luxury market (whisky, salmon, etc), so might not be such a problem. And I am sure a Scottish pound would tend to track either the rUK pound or euro, so we could just print more to make it weaker if it appreciated.
What I mean, overall, is that we need a foolproof currency case that cannot be sabotaged by London and has economists like Stiglitz or Krugman endorsing it. Personally, I am totally against central banks and the whole fiat-debt money racket, I am convinced we are nearing peak debt, but I would go along with whatever is expedient.
We need to chip away at the No voters, know their mindset. I believe that as usual it comes down to “the economy, stupid” and I am convinced that it was less Nick Roberton and Jackie Bird that delivered a No vote as worries over mortgages and future interest payments. Ironically, as economic problems continue to bite and we enter into ZIRP, more might start to see that maybe UKOK is not quite so “OK”…
P.S. Sent some snippets of poetry from some sonnets today without naming the author to a friend who is really into existentialist poetry, he has a book coming out in November, and he was really bowled over by them.. especially when I revealed that the author was Mary Queen of Scots!
Hello Stoker
Looked out for you at the weekend in Freedom Sq. The other guys went back to the Clutha after the Rally.
See you next time.
“The UK Government is firmly committed to Scotland’s ongoing place in the United Kingdom and is confident that people in Scotland will continue to support the United Kingdom in ANY referendum.”
Good to know that we can have a neverendum, as they know that no will always win.
So they shouldn’t have any problem agreeing to another one…
Aye …fine and dandy if they want to talk about donations.
But the most ‘priceless’ one still lies with the BBC, STV, and all the newspapers which ‘blanketed’ the entire Referendum with only one set of views. This wasn’t just invaluable to the ‘No’ camp. It was priceless!! You couldn’t put a value on it!
The ‘Yes’ Campaign raised £8.2 million according to the paper.
And yet, the ‘No’ campaign …with the entire British State Media right behind it; at no cost whatsoever to the ‘No’ Camp …would have had £100’s of millions of pounds at their disposal …all free and all paid for by the British State.
On a slightly different note, yet, still touching on the Telegraph’s article, we are now one year beyond the Referendum, and the British State media is still frothing at the mouth if so much as Nicola, Alex, the SNP, the 56, the 45, a ‘Yes’ flag, a ‘Yes’ badge, a saltire ….or just the word ‘Scotland ‘ is mentioned or seen anywhere in public.
The thing is …the more they keep discussing it; the more it will remain in the public’s conscious; not just in Scotland, but in the rest of the UK too …but primarily England. By doing so, they are foolishly stoking the embers of a fire that could erupt at any point should the Tories introduce something really silly in the Scottish public domain. And by continually slandering the Scottish public, they are provoking the rest of the UK to speak out should the people of Scotland protest. This is a grave mistake by the Establishment. By continually telling everyone that the people of Scotland should be ‘grateful for being in the Union’, they are not only antagonising everybody in their own way, but they are doing it in so many different ways, and thus, creating different reactions.
At some point, something is going to give, and it’s going to get a rather tad bitter somewhere, and it ain’t going to be pretty …that’s for sure!
I don’t mind being called a separatist. They mean it in derogatory terms, of course. But constitutionally it may be accurate. When we eventually come to negotiations we will separate and they will be the continuation state. That gives them some benefits, but gives us the negotiating power to walk away from most of the debt, for instance.
As I suggested earlier, perhaps Unionist is an inaccurate term for them. There is little evidence to support that title! They don’t really want a Union – they want to Lord over us.
I think I’ll start calling them what they are, Imperialists.
It was the Weirs and their Eurosquillions jackpot.
“The principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples:
By virtue of the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations, all peoples have the right freely to determine, WITHOUT EXTERNAL INTERFERENCE, their political status and to pursue their economic, social and cultural development, and every State has the duty to respect this right in accordance with the provisions of the Charter.”
If being a seperatist is what they want to call someone who believes in the UN principle of self determination of peoples I have quoted above, then that must make me a seperatist. I emphasise the bit about ‘without external interference’ as that seems to me the fundamental problem.
Of course the referendum had significant implications for the rest of the UK. The UN charter doesn’t seem to give a monkeys about that. Without external interference. Scotland is a country so the people of that country get to decide without interference.
Had Westminster and all of its institutions- the BBC, Foreign Office and civil service in particular not interfered we could have made a decision and been reconciled with the outcome. As it is the result is null and void for me- in fact we should have pulled it when it became clear that the Edinburgh agreement wasn’t worth the paper it was written on and definitely the moment purdah was effectively cancelled by Westminster.
The Daily Telegraph? The Etonian elite? Westminster politicians getting away with the kind of shit I’d be sent down for? Politicians swilling endless volumes of champagne in cahoots with the amoral city of london; happy to print billions for the bankers to enrich themselves while the proles see their pay flatline as the price of everything rises apace?
A little distance, seperation would suit me down to the ground.
We had a referendum and we want another one- the unionists hate this and claim money has been wasted, time wasted and the whole concept is just a huge distraction from domestic matters.
Well; Scotland, my friends has suffered a great number of very significant wastes of money, time, resources and lives that every time proved a huge distraction from domestic matters in the long history of our country. Without such distractions it is unknown and unknow-able how different Scotland would be today.
Tuesday night’s quiz night!
The telegraph, what else could we expect? Still I’m sure they support the rights of farmyard animals… or mibbie no.
“The notion that the Scottish Government used some public money for the White Paper in the furtherance of its goals is also a bizarre red herring, considering the avalanche of “Scotland Analysis” papers and pro-Union leaflets and booklets the UK government spent taxpayers’ cash on. How much exactly? We’re not allowed to know.”
This Telegraph assertion is absolute rubbish!
So what they’re saying is its ok for the UK government to use public funds in the furtherance of their policies but not for the Scottish government?
As the duly elected government they are clearly entitled to not only use public funds to inform the public of their policies but also to require the services of their civil servants who are tasked to facilitate the furtherance of the policies of the legally elected government of the day, otherwise no government could possibly get bills passed and laws enacted as they are party political
nil points Telegraph,
trolling at its poorest.
Yes Tam they called us cybernats as a derogatory term and we adopted and embraced the name. Let them call us separatists, we will adopt it and embrace the name.
Thick as fuck doesn’t even begin to explain their idiocy.
I’m feeling good and working towards Indy Ref 2 as all good cybernats and separatists will be doing.
Sticks and stones will break my bones
But names will never hurt me.
Diz that mean ah hiv tae gie up jined up writing, tae be ah separatist.
“To be, or not to be- that is the question:
Whether ’tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them.
To die- to sleep –
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heartache, and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to.”
Had to repeat this.
Heard it today. “We’re away down to the Boar’s Head for a quick one!”
@ Thepnr efter Saterday ah feel uplifted no separated,aw they Wingers jined thegither.
Yes Indy ref 2
Or just go and fuck a dead pig? That is the question!
Jings that a fine turn a phrase yev goat there Shakespeare,
what was up you didnt come to the wings table and reveal yourself?
feart we’d find oot whit ye really looked like?
http://tinyurl.com/q2lqaos
Kenny
So what you are saying is that if our economy tanked post indy as the no-voting pensioners feared, the pensioners would be the main beneficiaries as they would be paid their UK state pension they’ve been paying into over the years like good UK subjects and their state pension would be worth much more against our Scot Pound!
It would be like taking a wee holiday to the Spain of the Peseta and Escudo except that holiday would last as long as it takes the Scottish economy to pick up.
Politics, as Bukowski said, is like banging a cat in the ass (although he might have updated that had he been alive today). Turns out the no-voting pensioners should have voted yes and the yes-voting pensioners should have voted no!!!
How shall we count the expenditure of the Brit state against the democratic will of the Scottish people?
If the National is in trouble it could be because very many nationalists don’t understand how difficult it is to put a daily newspaper together on a shoe string and haven’t supported it.
It steadily continues to improve and it only costs 50P.
One would have thought that a substantial section of the SNP’s 112,000 members would have made a point of buying it daily.
Instead I believe its paper copy only moves about 17,000 per day.
PS The distributor takes 25P of that 50P to deliver it to newsagents. You can work out after physical costs of producing the paper are met how much is available to pay staff out of the remainder.
I wonder if Freddie and Davie Barclay know their Head of Editorial Compliance is such a snide incompetent.
That is a poor response by any standards.
What the hell are those boys doing on that island ?
The last time I read something like that was as a child. I had been given a novel written by an author named, “Charles Lutwidge Dodgson”.
The book had the very long title, “Through the Looking-Glass, and What Alice Found There”, It was written in 1871 and was a sequel to his previous novel, written in 1865, named, “Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland”.
The books main character, a child named Alice”, enters a fantastical world almost as strange as that apparently inhabited by this Jess McAree person.
This, “Charles Lutwidge Dodgson.”, was actually better known by his pen name, “Lewis Carroll”. He was an English writer, mathematician, logician, Anglican deacon, and photographer. The books are examples of the genre of, “literary nonsense”. Mind you Mr Dodgson’s efforts actually seem far more reasonable that the efforts of Mr McAree.
@Andrew McLean
The Prince of Danish did seem appropriate, somehow.
@john king
The table was busy both times I went past, and others were in groups in front. I did recognise you from your photo, though.
@ David McEwan Hill
22 September, 2015 at 9.42 pm
( : > }
Thanks for sharing that, funny
Ah but is it squillions of UK pounds or squillions of Smackeroonies?
Mon the Seperistas!
@ said it thrice. The phone rang three time. Blip, blip, blip.
Not only do I not mind being called a separatist, I actually describe myself as a separatist and not a nationalist. This is because I am more interested in social justice than physical boundaries. If the UK state or a hypothetical EU superstate was more likely to provide social justice than a future independent Scotland, then I would be fighting for these options rather than independence.
However we know that a socially just UK is almost a contradiction in terms. A state which is ruled by corrupt elites, has been and is the cause of so much suffering abroad and amongst certain of its own people and shows almost no sign of changing is one which any caring person should abhor.
Trying to bring an end to such state is a worthy objective. At the very least, attempting to separate oneself from it should be a source of self respect. Like African Americans in the 60s and 70s appropriating the term ‘black’ and changing it from a term of abuse, we could take pride in the term ‘separatist’.
I’m comfortable in describing myself as a separatist.
[PS No pigs were harmed in the production of this comment.]
@Kenny says: 22 September, 2015 at 8:43 pm:
” … I was mainly thinking of how to get the blue-rinse imaproudscotbut bowling brigade to see the advantages of YES. And it would not even mean lying to them, because the economic argument is clear (in my opinion)”.
And your opinion would be correct, Kenny. The real situation is that the, Former United Kingdom Government’s Status Quo Ante would be a return to the pre-Treaty status as, “The Kingdom of England”, and as the said, “blue-rinse imaproudscotbut bowling brigade “, had a legal pensions contract with them, and their NHS Stamps had been paid in full, the NHS Pensions would have to be paid in full.
These pensioners would all have died out and later pensioners, who had not contributed sufficient stamps, would get the bulk of their pension from the former UK and the rest topped up by the now independent Scottish government and this situation would continue with the English part falling and the Scottish part increasing until all Scottish Pensioners had only contributed to the Scottish NHS pension.
Furthermore, the same applies to works and private pensions. It was a deliberate and calculated lie that the UK pensions would stop on independence and the, “blue-rinse imaproudscotbut bowling brigade”, only exposed their, (if you pardon the pun), Pig Ignorance in being fooled by the imperialists.
Now you and I would feel justified anger at ourselves and the imperialists for being stupid enough allow ourselves to be fooled. However the, “blue-rinse imaproudscotbut bowling brigade”, will probably be stupid enough to be angry at the SNP, YES Movement and yon alecsammin.
Ye couldna beat thame wi a muckle stick.
Dakk,
“What the hell are those boys doing on that island ?”
Last I heard, the Barclays were trying to secede from Sark and declare independence for their fortress island of Brecou, having built themselves a new castle.
Bloody separatists.
The Torygraph is a poor newspaper and that is not hyperbolic. Neither is saying it is complete and utter keech.
Socialist Labour/Unionist supporting ‘reporter’gets remuneration and NO bonus from tax evading UKIP anti EU Non Doms, who hate ‘foreigners’ and who illegally use they wealth to try and manipulate and interfere in UK policies. Support illegal war, tax evasion and banking fraud through their many tax evaded business interests.
Lying so called journalists, with no principles support oiky pig sucking, criminals who illegally starve and kill the vulnerable at home and abroad, for their ill gotten gains. Condemn people who try to protect their society, their public services, the vulnerable and their communities as weird and call them names. Just weird, extremely weird.
@ronnie anderson.
“efter Saterday ah feel uplifted no separated”.
Not a bra advert surely? Paula Rose will give you stick.
Currently having a dispute with Facebook who are refusing to allow me to boost this because of the content. Now gone to appeal
http://www.facebook.com/councillorcadogan.enright/posts/459694904213032
Maybe I should stick in SNP BAAAD and see how that goes
Did I read that right? Did they actually argue that:
Donations made to political parties supporting independence should be included as money for the independence campaign.
Donations made to political parties supporting the union should not be included as money for the unionist campaign.
And if you look at it that way then WE ARE RIGHT and YOU ARE WRONG. NA NA NAH NAH NA.
The Telegraph chucking their toys right out of the pram there.
They like to use the term ‘separatists’.
To liken the unionists to Russians in the Ukraine, they are pro-England Separatists are they not?
That was not a Hyperbolic term!
Doesn’t it make you feel like your in “Star Wars” when they call you “separatists”?
galamcennalath wrote, “I don’t mind being called a separatist. They mean it in derogatory terms, of course. But constitutionally it may be accurate.” True.
Tam Jardine wrote, “By virtue of the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations, all peoples have the right freely to determine, WITHOUT EXTERNAL INTERFERENCE, their political status and to pursue their economic, social and cultural development, and every State has the duty to respect this right in accordance with the provisions of the Charter.”
So the British people have the right and the duty to leave the EU, which is by definition an agent of external interference.
The unionists use of the word “separatist” to describe those of us who support Scotland regaining its status as an independent nation once again in the .
Is meant to be offensive as possible, maybe we should describe those who support the union as collaborators
after all many Labour politicians in Scotland were quite happy to collaborate with the Tories during the referendum campaign
Unfortunately if IPSO do find in your favour, then all you have to look forward to is a muddily worded retraction, not unlike the above, in 4pt and placed in column 7 of page 12, three months from now.
Sorry if I have already posted this, problems with the Library computer.
The unionists use of the word “separatists” is designed to be as offensive as possible about those of us who support
our country regaining its status as an independent Nation in the World.
Maybe we should describe unionists particularly those of the Labour variety, as collaborators, which would be quite accurate, because they had no difficulty not only taking the Tories money, but also collaborated with them during the referendum campaign to do down their country at every opportunity.
Surely,those that want to leave the EU should be known as separatists as well. Standing by for all the “ah buts…”
Will Podmore
Now we’re getting somewhere Will. Without external interference. UK citizens have the right (but not the duty of course) to decide to leave the EU, without external interference. They also have the right to decide, again without external interference to remain part of the EU (and continue to have external interference on their economy etc etc).
I would suggest that it is perfectly reasonable for the people of Scotland to then decide they would rather break the union than be dragged out of the EU against their will.
Similarly if the people of Scotland decided to take the opposite view to England I can see no problem with England and Wales or Northern Ireland deciding to break the union to pursue their own interests.
Where the whole thing breaks down is when people’s decisions are skewed by outside pressure. Then the issues just fester as we are seeing now.
If England votes to leave and Scotland sways the vote to keep England trapped in an EU it detests, The next course of action would be for England to declare independence and for Scotland to keep EU membership
Scotland has been in the EU for a minute length of time historically, and in the union with England for, what, a quarter of her existance. And she will be around after the EU falls apart and she leaves the Union.
I wish nothing but the honest process of democracy Will. As such I can see that what we experienced up here last year was not self determination as defined by the UN.
Succinctly put, Tam.
No Tam, the decision will be made by the entire population of the UK, – one person, one vote. The majority will decide.
The SNP proposes that on the contrary a minority would decide. And its proposed veto is only against a pro-leaving majority, not over a pro-staying majority.
Remember that in 1995 Sturgeon proclaimed, “Europe is our flagship policy.” (Odd, some might have thought Scottish independence was!) In 2000 the SNP joined the doomed ‘Britain in Europe’ campaign which wanted us to scrap the pound and join the euro.
Podmore, a Tory mouthpiece if ever there was one, apologies to the pigs!
The Scottish people will decide on Europe, bring it on!
“We await IPSO’s judgement with interest.”
Really? You heart-warming optimism makes me smile 😉
We are constantly told that the existence of the EU has prevented war in Europe. This myth was destroyed by the fact that war broke out in Europe the minute the Soviet Union collapsed and continues to this day. It was the Soviet Union that kept the peace in Europe after WWII, not the EU.
Today, the EU is inseparable from NATO and the USA and is a force for war. The Soviet Union was a force for peace. Had the Soviet Union continued to exist, there would have been no invasion of Iraq or Afghanistan, no bombing of Libya and the chaos that followed, no ISIS and no war against Syria.
Does that really sound like a Tory?
Will Podmore
Hi Will. Again we agree- the decision will be made by the entire population of the UK- one person one vote. The SNP have proposed a veto which I don’t agree with and I cannot imagine will come to pass, not least as they represent 56 seats out of 650.
That does not mean Scotland has no say of course- if the decision is on a knife edge the votes of Scotland could sway the vote (technically) either way.
And if we get dragged out of Europe against the majority wishes of the electorate in Scotland, then we can have another referendum or our elected representatives can just annul the treaty of union.
On slightly shoogley ground with the Soviet Union preventing an invasion of Afghanistan not least as they invaded themselves in the eighties, but that’s a discussion for another day.
If Scotland had voted to leave the UK, then it could have made its own decision about the merits or otherwise of leaving the EU (the EU, not ‘Europe’).
But it didn’t vote that way, so it will be bound by the majority decision.
Many people on Wings and everywhere else agree that membership of the austerity-imposing, pro-capitalist EU is bad for us all.
The first statement you just made is true and in line with what I said above. The second statement is also true – many are opposed to EU membership.
This is becoming something of a habit Will – you’ve been on Wings too long when you are making statements that a vile cybernat like me can agree with.
Here’s a plan – you push for an exit vote and ill push to stay in and we may both eventually achieve the outcome that we both want.
Will
One last question. You cannot countenance Scotland being dragged out of EU against her will leading to another indyref or simple end of the union. Fair enough. What would the ramifications be if England votes to leave but a strong In vote in Scotland keeps us in the EU?
Would that be the issue put to bed, would we have another EU referendum after another few years or would England vote to annul the union?
Tam, I don’t think in terms of ‘vile cybernats’.
You ask, “What would the ramifications be if England votes to leave but a strong In vote in Scotland keeps us in the EU?”
I fear that it might strengthen those calling for dividing our country.
But hopefully people across Britain will see that staying in the EU makes us less able to survive the current crisis.
We don’t have to be in the EU to trade with it.
In its very useful study, ‘Change, or Go’, Business for Britain accepted that “Outside the EU, the UK could, if it chooses, impose greater controls over financial firms. One underappreciated facet of Britain’s EU membership is that it is actually harder for the British Government to impose greater controls over the financial sector.”
Business for Britain summed up, “The most significant change that would come from leaving would be a sense of security: there would be no risk of new EU laws being imposed on the NHS or of EU trade deals like TTIP imposing unwanted and undemocratic restraints on the UK healthcare sector.”
Will- I must admit to finding this all very confusing. You’re sounding like one of us – a separatist! You talk about having more control over our own policy, laws, trade, financial regulation, and having less interference from the EU imposing laws and policy.
The Will of a year ago could have taken you on if he substituted Scotland for the UK and The UK for the EU.
I am dead against TTIP and thought the treatment meted out to Greece was appalling. Having been on the pro EU side for as long as I can remember I less emphatic than I was. I have 2 bros, in Norway and France, and their countries get by successfully (though both have their issues).
So maybe there is no singular truth- honest government for the people can be successful in either arrangement. It’s one of the reasons I support Scottish Independence – I can see my country run for the benefit of people living here, whether we’re in the EU or not.
One thing I fear from what you said above:
“Outside the EU, the UK could, if it chooses, impose greater controls over financial firms.” It surely follows that the UK could also choose to reduce regulation if it so chooses. And reduce regulation in lots of other areas of human rights, employment rights and so forth and so on.
The tories are all about competitiveness – and I don’t want to live in a state resembling the Deep South of old,
I am for the sovereignty of Britain as a united nation, which means I am against EU membership, which more and more encroaches on our sovereignty.
The EU is not and never will be a nation. Britain was, is and will be a united nation.
“Outside the EU, the UK could, if it chooses, impose greater controls over financial firms.” Some have claimed that if we left the EU we would inevitably reduce regulation of the finance boys. I was pointing out that we could equally well curb them, as we should. Inside the EU, we are prevented from imposing any limits on their freedom to move capital as they wish.
The Deep South of old was built on slavery; it is an exaggeration to warn against such a possibility.
Countries will not be run for the benefit of the people until the people run their country, and the sooner we all in the British working class take responsibility for running Britain the better.
Words that rhyme with squillion
billion, jillion, million, bajillion, modillion, multibillion, multimillion, , septillion, sextillion, trillion, zillion
An “opinion piece” containing a “loose estimate” from a man who (by his own admission) will usurp journalistic standards when it suits him. Disciplinary proceedings pending at the Telegraph???