Scotland’s voice in Westminster
Posted on
January 17, 2013 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
We thought you might like to see the statistics for Tuesday’s section 30 debate in the House Of Commons in at-a-glance pictorial form, so we’re delighted to share this graphic sent in by alert reader Stewart Bremner. (NB we default to anonymity when people send us things, just in case we get them in trouble at work or something, but we’re always very happy to give full attribution where desired.)
Click the image for full-size version. Detailed data here (OpenOffice format).
Superb analysis and breakdown – many thanks to the anonymous reader, as well as to you, Reverend, for posting this.
No longer anonymous 🙂
I wonder, does it matter? The HoC was going to pass the Section 30 order anyway. The rest was just talk. A criminal waste of parliamentary time, that’s all. An opportunity for a bunch of bitter people to vent about how sidelined they are.
Will we care, this time next week?
Am I right in thinking that the interventions by England based Tory MPs took up more time than the SNP’s fag end discourses?
However disgraceful the language was that emanated from WM, I’ll not lose sleep and I doubt that the Yes campaign will either.
The perspective of an undecided watching the “debate” with any analytical sense of what was really taking place could only have moved towards the Yes camp.
Will JL distance her self from the words of Ian “the chair chube” Davidson and Sarwar? No she will not, and therefore she is aligning her self with them and so is the reast of the party.
Am I right in thinking that the interventions by England based Tory MPs took up more time than the SNP’s fag end discourses?
Five England-based Tory MPs intervened, a total of 12 times. That’s probably less time than the two reasonable length speeches the two SNP MPs made.
Alas, unless they were tied to a chair with their eyes taped open, or the victims of a dissociative fugue, I doubt any low-information voter was privy to this pack of hyenas vicious behavior.
And low-information voters are the teaming herd that must be corralled and convinced before the hyenas scare them off or worse, intimidate them into voting NO.
It’s dog-eat-dog out there.
Seldom worth commenting on Scots Tories, but Murdo Fraser’s “progressive” opinion on equality sounds like the judge in the Lady Chatterley trial.
He tweeted “Why is Lady Steel (apparently) pro-independence? Is he not master in his own house?”
Whoever’s the judge in a household wears the trousers and the wigs. Them’s the rules.
Sorry Oldnat, for my obscure post – I got confused for some reason and thought you were referring to Lady Smith. D’oh. The sunlight glinting off the Bosphorus probably disoriented me momentarily.
Major Bloodnok
Sunlight? – another obscure concept! 🙂
Thank you Stewart Bremner for that great piece of work.
I’m inclined to agree with Morag here. The decision was always going to be that the power was passed to Edinburgh.
Why then, was 6 hours of parliamentary time given over to discussing something which had already been decided. These people are paid at 3 times the average UK salary; when at work they should surely be spending their time more productively. It’s not as if the country were running along relatively smoothly, and there was time for a philosophical discussion.
It was, it seems a period at our expense, given over to some rather ignorant people to spill their bile. It was shameful that some of them were Scotsmen, putting down the Scottish nation for celebrating the death of Englishmen at Bannockburn (The Honourable (?!)Mr Davidson).
One Tory MP from Epping Forest appeared to be under the impression that Scotland was, and always had been, an independent country. What do they teach at English public schools these days?
I was intrigued to hear one unionist (The Rt Hon. Alistair Darling) say that he had no confidence in the independence of the head of the Scottish Civil Service. This happened at almost exactly the same time as another unionist (The Rt Hon. Francis Maude) was bemoaning the fact that some civil servants were openly defying the direction of UK coalition government…
Do the unionists know what they want from the Civil Service?
“One Tory MP from Epping Forest appeared to be under the impression that Scotland was, and always had been, an independent country. What do they teach at English public schools these days?”
To be fair, the Tory MP from Epping Forest was born, brought up and educated in Scotland, so it seems fair to say that she was either lying, or has a very, very strange definition of independence, where a country can still be independent even when the elected representative of Epping Forest (no, I don’t know where it is either) is able to vote on what its government can and cannot do.
Epping Forest is at the right hand end of the central line in north east london near the M25. It’s the leafier and wealthier part of Essex. Lots of houses with lions rampart at electronic gates etc. It’s where Derek Trotter would spend £3million on a house. 🙂
Like “Holyrood is a dictatordhip” this “Scotland is, and always has been, an independent country” is just part of a script parotted by Unionists. Numerous Lords used exactly the same words in the debate there.
Just part of a Big Lie strategy.
@Oldnat
>>Murdo Fraser tweeted “Why is Lady Steel (apparently) pro-independence? Is he not master in his own house?”
Um, I think you’ll find that was a joke playing upon people’s kneejerk view of Tories. Seems to have worked, too 😉
Colin Dunn
Of course it was an attempt at a joke! Crass stupidity to do it in a tweet, which has to be too short to give context. Poor political judgement, therefore.
Stewart
Thanks for the response and the time ypou took to draw up the analysis.
I live in France qnd have not seen the debate or even recordings of it but, was there not a lady MP, a Tory from Epping Forest [?] who spoke for some length on SFA?
By my thinking such a speech in such circumstance constitutes an intervention on nothing that really shpuld be her concern although it is not an intervention in the Parliamentary debate context.
Thanks again
Stewart Bremner, you’re a stalwart hero!
That really does show the whole picture – including speaker interventions. It’s a keeper.
yes it is infact, I’ll bookmark it
Thanks for the nice words everyone. I’m going to try to put out a few more of these when time permits and there are suitable subjects.
James McLaren
Eleanor Laing is the Tory MP for Epping Forest and she is a Scot living in England, therefore she could be seen to have some interest in the ‘debate’. However, almost every point she raised in her (clearly far too long) speech have by this point already been addressed.
@Oldnat: Crass stupidity to do it in a tweet
<shrugs> That’s the nature of twitter.
@oldnat
Very perceptive – it is all so horribly (and hilariously) reminiscent of the Lady Chatterley trial. The Unionist position: would you allow your servants to vote for this!?
@Vronsky
link to politicalscrapbook.net
Vronsky
Did you see that the Tory MP for Christchurch referred to catering staff in the Commons as “servants”?
link to news.sky.com
1960 still seems to be vibrant – I wonder if I still have any of my clothes from those days? 🙂
The UK Government has kept its side of the bargain and, subject to formalities, has ensured than an Order is in place to provide for a lawful referendum on the question of independence for Scotland from the rest of the UK. It now falls to Alex Salmond and the SNP Government to keep their side of the bargain and, in the words of the Edinburgh Agreement, to ensure that the people of Scotland make their choice on the basis of a referendum that meets “the highest standards of fairness, transparency and propriety”.
Jings. Should I put my PhD in my internet handle?
Can we expect the rest of the bitter together wrecking crew from the Herald to turn up here? This could be fun.
I see what you’re getting at there John McIntyre OBE – Scots are practically foreigners and therefore cannot be expected to behave in a ‘civilised’ manner or follow the ‘rules of the game’ – should we be capable of even understanding them. Luckily we have the honourable members of the Houses of Commons and Lords to show us how civilised folk should behave.
Seriously John, no offence, but whenever I see someone put letters after their name I always feel it just sends out a signal that they are overcompensating for something.
Mr McIntyre.
I am sure the referendum will be above reproach. It is in noones interest to have it otherwise. Thankfully, the likes of Ian Davidson won’t be running it, so standards will be high.
Should I include my letters to show off too?
Sincerely
Dr Doug MBChB MRCGP DRCOG 😉
Peter, City and Guilds in Plumbing Advanced Craft, City and Guilds in Papermaking Advanced Craft, and your point is?? I care not if you are a Knight, OBE , CBE or whatever, do you really think it matters?
MajorBloodnok DSO DSC DFC DFS MCC MC (Hammer) VC Croix de Guerre (2nd class) Croix de Gruyere (melted) NAFFI (and bar) (retd.) at your service.
Morag
It could be that Mr McIntyre is an Oboe player, and just missed out a 0.
He is, of course, right. Fortunately, political reality forced Westminster to cede responsibility for the referendum to Holyrood, instead of leaving the details to Westminster.
It would have caused Mr Cameron and the Con/Lib Government little political damage to have adopted much lower standards of propriety in the referendum than is the case for the Scottish Government.
The referendum is certainly safer in Scottish hands than the English NHS is in the hands of their Government.
Major Bloodnok
I thought that you also claimed to have a VC, at your trial?
That’s Dr. Morag to you! 😀
I see Doug’s mere GP status and raise him the following.
BVMS, BSc (hons), PhD, CBiol, FIBiol, MRCVS.
I was very fortunate to avoid the necessity of being employed by DEFRA during my career, though I have to admit it was a close shave in 2006.
I don’t see what you gain by mocking Mr McIntyre. You merely lose a potential sympathiser. His statement was correct.
So, the taxpayer has paid a fortune for a load of middle-aged/old men to have a moist lunch, and slag off Scotland to their hearts content?
Have i missed anything?
Juteman. WCW.
OBE as an acronym has many meanings. In this case it is probably a toss up between “Overtaken By Events” and “Out of Body Experience”.
There are others.
“Objective Bulimic Episodes, “Ocean Biogeochemistry and Ecosystems”, “Ocean Blue Education”, “Ocean Bottom Electro”, “Odyssey Balloon Expedition”, “Off Budget Enterprises”, “Office Business Entities”, “Office by Example”, “Office of Bilingual Education”, “Office of Biostatistics and Epidemiology”, “Office of Buddhist Education”, “Office of Building Equipment”, “Office of Business Economics”, “Offline Benefit Estimate”, “Offshore Business Entities”, “Ogden Brothers Enterprise”, “Old Bridge Estates”, “Old But Everlasting”, “Olympic Business Exchange”, “Omni Box Entertainment”, “On Board Electronics”, “On Board Experiential Marketing”, “On the Brink of Exhaustion”, “On-Board Equipment”, “On-Board Equivalent”, “One Behind the Ear”, “One Boson Exchange”, “Online Benefit Estimate”, “Online Bidding Event”, “Online Booking Engine”, “Open Basic Education”, “Open Book Engineering”, “Open Book Estimate”, “Open Book Exams”, “Open Business Engine”, “Open Business Exchange”, “Opening Balance Equity”, “Operating Base Earthquake”, “Operating Budget Estimate”, “Operation of the Business Entity”, “Operational Base Earthquake”, “Optical Bloch Equations”, “Optional Branching Extension”, “Oracle by Examples”, “Order of Battle”, “Order of British Empire”, “Order of British Excellence”, “Order of the Brown Envelope”, “Ordinary Bloody Effort”, “Oregon Board of Education”, “Organization for Business Enterprise”, “Organization of Black Episcopal”, “Original Black Entertainment”, “Other Buggers Efforts”, “Other Business Enterprise”, “Other Business Entity”, “Ottawa Board of Education”, “Ottawa Book of Everything”, “Oulu Business Excellence”, “Our Best Effort”, “Our Best Estimate”, “Out before Easter”, “Out Body Experience”, “Out of Band Emission”, “Out of Band Experience”, “Out of Body Ecstasy”, “Out of Body Erfahrungen”, “Out of Body Experience”, “Out of Body Experiment”, “Out of Body Experiment”, “Out of Box Experience”, “Out-Board Electronics”, “Outboard Booster Engine”, “Outcome Based Evaluation”, “Outcomes Based Educational”, “Outward Bound Experiences”, “Over Bloody Eighty”, “Overall Boat Effectiveness”, “Overcome By Events”, “Overtaken By Events”, “Overwhelmed by Events”, “Ovine beta-endorphin”, “Oxford Brookes Enterprise”,
Believe it or not the initials in my username came about through naivety on my part. I was expected to use the initials in my former employment – which any number of people have checked out – and when I registered on The Herald forum I complied with their house rules and provided my “real name”. I became aware of this site recently, found my background was being discussed and, as a result, I agreed with the Rev. Stuart Campbell to post the following message at http://wingsland.podgamer.com/little-rays-of-sunshine/ . And when I posted the message above I thought I’d best use the same username as elsewhere – that’s the truth and there really is no more to it than that:-
“I’ve belatedly become aware of several references to me on this page of the Wings Over Scotland website. These references include the suggestion that I work for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra), as such ‘he wouldn’t be allowed to make political statements’ and that ‘he’s actually British Government (SE variety probably Conservative given the location).’
As a result of contributing to debates on The Herald and The Scotsman websites, several other contributors to those debates have checked me out on Google. In response to the out-of-date information that was found by those who felt it necessary to check, I’ve confirmed that I retired in August 2011 and I’m now as free as anyone else to engage in political debate. I’ve also been asked several times whether I’m in the pay of the “no” campaign and the answer is “no” – I’m not in anyone’s employment. I’ve also confirmed that I’m not and never have been a member of any political party; and I’m not in any way associated with any of the independence campaigns.”
Order of the British Ersh=*£
Fine. We knew you were retired, because that was googled too. Nice self-justification. It doesn’t negate the simple fact that your username makes you appear to be a complete poser, and is simply sitting up and begging to have the piss taken out of it.
kinivinie
I already said that Mr McIntyre was correct in his statement.
His raising of the question might, however, suggest that the likelihood of his being a supporter of independence is not high.
The script being adopted by supporters of the UK Union has been regularly repeated in the HoC, the HoL, and on the net.
Gentle mocking of those who use their awards in inappropriate contexts is an entirely different matter.
I have a couple of degrees – what possible import would there be from quoting them here? My opinions will be of no greater (or more probably lesser 🙂 ) value because of them.
Dr Morag
What are female hospitals consultants called? (Please exclude terminology used by Labour supporters when they are out of office).
Medical or surgical?
John MacIntyre
Welcome to the site. I hope that everyone here will make you feel welcome and that you can make a valuable contribution to the discussions here, however….
‘when I registered on The Herald forum I complied with their house rules and provided my “real name”’
I would content that your “real name” is John MacIntyre, and nothing more. A man’s a man, for a’ that.
@ John Macintyre.
John, you had me at “naively on my part” .
Contend, dammit! Tried to edit it instantly, but someone had already posted another comment.
Dr Morag may wish to pause and consider why I continue to use the username when I could quite easily edit out the initials. The answer may lie in the torrent of posts that followed my original post above – very few of which are rational – and none in the case of Dr Morag.
John I have read some of your post elsewhere and they were no way as conciliatory as your ones are now. If fact I noted that they were subsequently removed.
To be honest probably a lot of people that contribute to these forums could put letters after their name, but they do not as it serves no purpose other than to attract attention which may distract from the point they are trying to make.
My advice for what it is worth would be to type your name as normal, and before you type the last three letters, ask yourself this, what is more important, my title or the point I am trying to make.
Only you will know the answer.
Why do you continue to align yourself with Jimmy Savile in sticking the OBE postnomial on your internet username?
I presume the answer isn’t that you intended to elicit the reaction you just commented on. I presume the reason is that posing as someone superior is more important to you than having people pay attention to what you’re saying.
Surprisingly enough that odious git Saville also was employed by a company who are currently pre-occupied in dealing with waste management as well.
I was naive when I registered with The Herald forum towards the end of last year – but less so now. I knew what I was doing when I submitted the original post above. I won’t deny that I’ve derived some amusement from the posts that followed – especially Dr Morag’s posts. But I’ll leave you in peace now – unless I discover that any contributors have been defaming me by describing me as a south east Conservative. I’m Scottish by birth and upbringing and a longstanding Guardian reading liberal. I note that the Rev Stuart Campbell is a Liberal Democrat voter at every election for the last 22 years – so we can’t all be bad.
Ah, so it was a deliberate strategy to elicit mockery and derision?
Glad to oblige. Any time.
Dr Morag BVMS, BSc (hons), PhD, CBiol, FIBiol, MRCVS
Ahah! You aren’t a real doctor at all!
Just a person who knows a helluva lot about bodies and how they work! Maybe no better than my current GP or vet – but a damn sight better than my previous GP whose inadequacy damn near killed me.
(Partisan analogy for Lab/Lib v SNP Health Secretaries – even though Sturgeon turns out to have been a robotic invention by Salmond, she/it [poor Peter Murrel] still a better Health Secretary than any previous human.
Defame? Whats so bad about south east conservatives? (Snigger).
Alas John, your regular outpourings of anti SNP bile on The Herald mean you will find a pretty tough audience here. Maybe mr west midlands will pop along with his usual words of support.
McHaggis Dip Surv MRICS MInstLM
We may well decide to indulge in a little postnomial inspired defamation ourselves at some point. It’s what we do after all.
😀
Oldnat, as you can no doubt see, I am a “real doctor”. None of that “courtesy title” thing adopted by plebs with mere bachelors degrees so they can impress the nurses….
Hehehe, ah bless, what a silly little man.
Still, he’s marginally better than the sad creature from the West Midlands so no doubt he’ll be able to take some comfort from that.
The Major summed it up best at 10.41pm.
Can I be first to break the news that the Labour leader of Glasgow City Council has been reported to the fiscal for indulging in a public sex act (not with his partner)…
Resignation must be inevitable.
Just what is it with Labour in Glasgow?
So Mr McIntyre, are you the unionist advance party from the Herald letters pages anticipating the demise of the Herald? Careful how you go here as there isn’t an cuttings editor protecting you here from some pretty smart people.
Concerning listing academic quals. after “one’s” name, I don’t since mostly i’ve forgotten all the stuff I had to study.
“Other Buggers’ Efforts” isn’t an academic qualification.
In fact it’s not a qualification at all. It’s an imperialist anachronism. And the only other person I know of who used it as part of his name was indeed the late, unlamented Jimmy Savile.
Morag
“None of that “courtesy title” thing adopted by plebs with mere bachelors degrees so they can impress the nurses”
So you knew my brother! 🙂
Peeps, I believe there is an obligation for John MacIntyre to use the OBE in his name, either a legal obligation or something like that. I don’t think there’s any reason to mock it. It’s his name, simple as that.
Welcome John!
Ah, just looked it up:
link to debretts.com
“Having been honoured by Her Majesty by being made a Member of the British Empire when should I and when should I not use the MBE suffix?
It would be quite in order for you to have correspondence cards printed with your name, followed by your post-nominal letters, at the top of the card. It would also be helpful if on all formal or business correspondence you were to type your name under your signature with your post-nominal letters, so that your correspondents will know how you should be correctly addressed.
It is a question of personal taste whether or not your post-nominal letters should appear on a list of names, etc, say at a golf club, but on balance I should recommend against using it with too much frequency.”
I find the mocking of a certain individual here rather embarrassing….just my opinion. Acting like a bunch of nine year old playground bullies will not endear this site or its ideas to anyone.
Yes, if I’d earned an MBE I’d be proud to put it after my name.
I’m with Keith B on this. We need to play the ball and not the man.
“I’m with Keith B on this. We need to play the ball and not the man.”
I agree. Readers, remember those talks we had about undecided voters? There’s a feature going up shortly that might make you feel a little embarrassed.
Morag. Any friend of mine with a PhD says the same. But ask yourelf who the public sees as a doctor. Is there a PhD on the plane? 😉
@ Keith b.
If you find this mocking (wholly instigated by said person, lest we forget) embarrassing, I’d strongly advise you do not venture near anything that has been spewed forth from the bowls of Westminster in recent times. Sarwar and Davidson are two that immeidetly spring to mind.
Is it any wonder though?
Bill MacLeod One Boiled Egg
Back on topic, but Joyce MacMillan in the Scotsman has neatly articulated for their slightly smaller audience what has been said here for the past few days.
link to scotsman.com
Well, I thought it would have been ‘interesting’ to see what Mr MacIntyre was going to add to the debate here. But, apparently that’s not to be.
Pity really.
Maybe in this case OBE stands for Off to Bed Early?
If anything last nights exchange between Mr MacIntyre and others showed the benefit of Rev’s moderation policy compared to the other online sites where comments are reduced,altered or deleted altogether!
Whether one found the various comments funny or not is beside the point, I believe. It felt like comedic relief, and it can’t be denied that at times it has felt overwhelmingly depressing listening to some of the rubbish spouted by media and anti Indy sites at present.
There are indeed many viewing this site who are not yet persuaded by the positive arguments, but the word IS getting out there, how could it not, it’s positive and factual!
Probably a little optimistic to think that some contributors would add to the debate, but hey, I live in hope!
I agree. Readers, remember those talks we had about undecided voters? There’s a feature going up shortly that might make you feel a little embarrassed.
If John has come on here with that ridiculous moniker as a clean-sheet newbie, I for one would have held my fire. However, we’ve all read his comments on the Herald articles. Ad nauseam. He’s coming here with baggage, and there’s no getting away from it.
“He’s coming here with baggage, and there’s no getting away from it.”
Nevertheless, I’d rather see people attacked for what they say than who they are.
Jeez, get a grip people with the sympathy vote; he is a self confessed wind up merchant.
He is playing you for fools.
He is, as Scott says, a wind-up merchant. His opening salvo was disingenuous in the extreme. There’s tolerance, and then there’s walking naively into a baited trap.
Others have suggested that the Electoral Commission may be planning some sort of nasty surprise that the unionists would simply love for the Scottish government to commit in advance to agreeing to. I have my doubts that they would dare propose something like the 40% rule, but we can’t know until we see it.
That opening salvo of John’s echoes what we’ve been hearing from the HoC unionist bunch. Since the wise and benificent Westminster government has seen fit to let these irresponsible adolescents in the Scottish parliament have control over this serious and grown-up matter, we emphasise that the process must reach “the highest standards of fairness, transparency and propriety”. All the while insinuating that they’re just waiting for the Scottish government to do something they can spin as biassed.
I have a great deal more trust in the Scottish government to adhere to “the highest standards of fairness, transparency and propriety” than I have for Westminster to do likewise. And I think the experiences of this week bear me out in that.
I have read many thoughtful and interesting comments on this site – many by the people I was having a go at above.
That said, in my opinion I think the only time a paedophile’s name should appear in any debate about independence is if we are discussing the possible effects independence would have on child protection. The Saville jibe was particularly nasty and uncalled for – there is nothing the person had written here that called for that sort of abuse.
We are the first to condemn unionists for playing the man and not the ball, we also rightly deride the bile spewing from Westminster and the various organs of the MSM. I know it is difficult to resist the temptation to rip the piss out of certain people – the time for that will be after we have successfully won our independence.
“Jeez, get a grip people with the sympathy vote; he is a self confessed wind up merchant.”
I’m more than capable of dealing with trolls as and when they arise, Scott. But I’ll be the judge of when it’s happened.
Well, maybe it was, but to be honest I’d have made the same comment even if Savile had remained the gererally beloved, if quirky figure he was at the time of his death. He’s the only person I’ve ever come across who used the OBE postnomial all the time, as if it was part of his name, no matter how inappropriate the context.
The point being that normal, discreet, self-effacing civil servants, the sort of people who usually get these low-level gongs, don’t do it. It’s a bizarre thing to do, worthy of the sort of self-publicist Savile was during his lifetime.
link to yesscotland.net
“… of the five senior appointments announced by Chief Executive Blair Jenkins OBE.”
I think that closes that discussion.
Morag says:
18 January, 2013 at 9:37 am
“If John has come here with that ridiculous moniker as a clean sheet newbie, I for one would have held my fire. However, we’ve all read his comments on the Herald articles. Ad nauseam. He’s coming here with baggage, and there’s no getting away from it.”
I’ve certainly not read any of Johns’ comments, as I avoid the Herald and most MSM like the plague. Perhaps I would have liked to make my own mind up about John, consider what baggage he /she might have, and decide for myself whether they are a twat, or not.
I might not have a string of letters hanging out my arse (they don’t really count for much at the sharp end), but I do have manners. Then again, I’m just a pleb and lets not forget, a fuckwit.
“I’m more than capable of dealing with trolls as and when they arise, Scott. But I’ll be the judge of when it’s happened.”
You can’t argue with that.
Dadsarmy, I don’t really know what your point is. Of course the postnomial is used in formal contexts like the one you quote.
It’s inappropriate for an informal internet discussion with people called – well, dadsarmy and mogabee and MajorBloodnok. John chooses to use it, and I think we’re allowed to draw certain inferences.
Not really, John says he first registered on the Herald which asks for your real name. His real name is with the MBE at the end, and though to some forums are informal, to others it’s very like the letters page of a newspaper – which the Herald is. All he is doing is not hiding behind a cloak of anonymity – such as the monikers we use. I think that’s very honourable especially as he knows he’s in the minority in this forum.
To me it’s an ad hominem, I think we all saw enough of that on Tues / Wed. YMMV.
His “real name” no more has the OBE on the end of it than mine has the PhD on the end of it. It’s pretentious, that’s all there is to it.
There’s a poster on the Herald has a Dr. in front of his name.
He appears to be an independence supporter, and his postings are very good.
Anyway, enough from me or I’ll get banned by Rev.
What, please don’t tell me you’re talking about James Wilkie!