The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland

How you make a lie

Posted on July 02, 2018 by

Yesterday we reported on the Sunday Herald’s bizarre and blatant reversal of the plain facts about OBFA prosecutions in its front-page lead. But it wasn’t the only paper pulling that trick this weekend.

The Sunday Times ran a major piece on results from a poll it conducted at the same time as our most recent one, spinning the outcome as voters rejecting the SNP’s plan to boost the Scottish economy via more immigration.

But as so many stories in the press do, the article simply disintegrated before readers’ eyes almost immediately after the headline.

Anyone reading the splash would reasonably infer from its wording that the plan had been opposed overall by the poll’s respondents. But as early as the first paragraph that apparent opposition had been downgraded to “Scots are split”, and it quickly fell apart even further.

Wait, what? So 36% of voters backed the idea as a good thing for the economy, 30% were opposed and 34% had no opinion? In an actual vote on the subject, where Don’t Knows and Don’t Cares don’t count, that would translate to this:


Funnily enough, that’s the exact same margin which in the independence referendum was described as a “decisive” or even “overwhelming” victory, yet was presented here by the Sunday Times as a “setback” for the SNP.

And the data was even more revealing than that. Because only one party’s voters were actually opposed to the plan, with all the others strongly united in support.

Again, let’s strip out the DKs and see how those numbers would pan out in a vote:


Support: 71%
Oppose: 29%


Support: 61%
Oppose: 39%


Support: 77%
Oppose: 23%


Support: 23%
Oppose: 77%

But we suppose “Setback for Ruth Davidson as Tory voters turn out to be an isolated bunch of racists completely out of step with the majority of Scottish opinion” isn’t the sort of message the Sunday Times’ readers are looking for.

Print Friendly

    1 Trackbacks/Pingbacks

    1. 02 07 18 12:56

      How you make a lie | speymouth

    190 to “How you make a lie”

    1. bobajock says:

      I have a dream, but its not supported by 35% of the population cos I haven’t told them yet.

      Some people don’t like dreams, some people wear sashes, some people like nightmares.

      And some people will be convinced in October.

    2. Cuilean says:

      Excellent. Take the afternoon off. Maybe watch some football

    3. Calum McKay says:

      Papers like the times seek not to report the news, but to create news designed to misinform the electorate and sway them towards the paper’s political masters way of thinking.

      In other words, the press and bbc lie through their teeth as they know a quid pro quo is coming their way for services rendered.

    4. robertknight says:

      Lies, damned lies and the Yoon Press.

    5. Muscleguy says:

      I’m not technically an immigrant since I was born in Scotland but my English born wife would be and our two NZ born kids definitely would be. The youngest has returned to her place of birth but our eldest is still here, still contributing, still with the man frae Skye.

      We will have been here/back here for 20 years this December.

      I wonder how many Scots Tories would have opposed my wife and kids coming here?

    6. Doug Bryce says:

      SNP = Scottish INTER-national Party

    7. HandandShrimp says:

      Times discovers that Tories are racists Shock Horror!

    8. admiral says:

      Muscleguy says:
      2 July, 2018 at 11:22 am

      I wonder how many Scots Tories would have opposed my wife and kids coming here?

      Much, much quicker to ask how many wouldn’t have, surely?

    9. Arbroath1320 says:


      Looks like the anti Scotland “news”papers darn surf don’t like the idea that Scotland really is a different country from their xenophobic homophobic islamophobic antisemitic racist bigoted Engerland then. … Shame. 😀

    10. gus1940 says:

      How does this deal between Teso and Carrefour fit in with Brexit?

    11. gus1940 says:

      How does this deal between Tesco and Carrefour fit in with Brexit?

    12. mark whittet says:

      2 July 2018

      In the bad old, bad old days, it used to be said:

      “They’re are lies, damned lies – and ‘Sun’ exclusives’

      Now it should be updated to say;

      “They’re are lies, damned lies – and ‘Sun’ & ‘Times’ exclusives’

    13. Welsh Sion says:

      The true situation as per the poll and Stu’s dissection of it:

      “Majority of Scots back plan for 400,000 immigrants to boost economy”

      followed up by:

      Crushing blow to Ruth Davidson’s Tory separatists as poll shows that decisive majority of Scots support the SNP’s policy to welcome new immigrants to Scotland. In a major slap in the face to the Conservative Party in Scotland, Davidson’s mob were sent reeling by the news that they alone of all the major parties in Scotland had been isolated on immigration policy.

      (If only MSM were so truthful …)

      Upon hearing the news, Ruthie, 39, stamped her foot petulantly, and said huffily, “It’s all fake news! And I’m going away to sulk on my own wee island.”

      And with that, she stormed out of the interview, clutching her desert island luxury – a DVD collection of her appearances on Great British Bake Off on a loop – never to be seen or heard from again.

      (Well, we can but live in hope with regard to the last part …)

    14. Capella says:

      Like shooting fish in a barrel now. They’re making it too easy for you Stu.

      Stll, it’s the headline that they want so they just go ahead and print it anyway. Who needs facts?

    15. yesindyref2 says:

      It’s another Unionist half-story, where Scotland exports more to the rUK than it does to the Rest of the World so BE VERY AFRAID the rUK will stop trading with Scotland out of spite. They’re also, by the way, quoting 2016 figures as they’re thick and don’t keep up with the times, nevermind.

      Add up the 4 quarters for 2017 and Scotland’s EXPORTS to the rUK are £49.630 bn.

      But the 2017 figure of IMPORTS from the rUK is £62.427 bn.

      So trade with Scotland is worth a positive balance of trade to the rUK of £12.797 bn. Considering the UK as a whole runs a balance of trade deficit of around £138 bn, trade with Scotland prevents it running an even bigger deficit of trade, to the detriment of the value of the pound, its credit rating AND foreign interest rates.

      Something those against Independence won’t tell us for some reason. The rUK needs our trade as it’s the only positive balance of trade it has.

      UK figures overall – Exports: £330.5bn, Imports: £468.4bn

    16. jfngw says:

      I thought when you wanted to make lie you just wheeled out Gordon Brown. Financial advice for Scotland from the man who was chancellor as the biggest ever banking crash in the UK was starting.

      Rather than stay an pick up the mess he helped create, he went for the big prize that had been gnawing at him since The Blair stole his crown. He then went on to prove he was even worse at this job. PFI Broon, never forget the name!

      If Brown was given a capsule that allowed him to wipe out Scotland by just crushing it, he would do it, I believe he detests Scottishness.

    17. Liz g says:

      Bay City Roller Alan Longmuir has died.

    18. Macart says:

      Just got back to it last night and I’m playing catch up on the past week or so of posts around the indyweb. Seems the British Nationalists have got a bee in their bunnet. Couldn’t possibly have anything to do with the impending Brexit explosion and the inevitable public backlash (and it is inevitable).Kinda what happens when the lies are exposed, the strategies and manipulations made transparent and you’re caught red handed trashing your agreements and settlements to suit your own ends. That’s your given word at the end of the day. That thing which can take a lifetime to make good and a heartbeat to throw under a bus.

      Tick tock for Westminster.

    19. mr thms says:


      When you add the exports of the four countries they do not add up to the total figure given for the UK.

      There is a missing region.

      The figures for the ‘missing’ extra-regio should ideally be included with Scotland’s figures, since the extra-regio region is part of Scotland’s EEZ.

    20. Truth says:

      I’m afraid the unionists are flying kites here and many of us and the Yoon audience have missed the point.

      There will be an indyref 2. We know this and the yoons know this. They also know the economic arguement will be harder to win on this time.

      They are currently testing their secret weapon. Chris Deerin’s article the other week was the first test of this approach. It went over even the yoons heads. You see, they know they can lose the next one and immigration and xenophobia is going to be their trump card. Their campaign is going to be sickening.

      They are going to tell us Sturgeon will let anyone in. They are going to tell us we will be at increased risk of terrorism. They are going to tell us a lot worse. The media is going to misrepresent facts to make people think that it’s normal to dislike immigration and “foreigners”. They are going to try and tell us what to think as usual.

      At the moment they are taking the temperature. They are checking that this approach will not push the remaining labour vote to be pushed into the arms of yes. But with people like Curran maybe it might just work.

      I don’t know how we plan for this. But it’s going to be a far uglier campaign than the last.

      I hope I’m wrong. I’m just calling it as I see it.

    21. Craig P says:

      Ruth Davidson’s Tory separatists

      Ruth Davidson’s Brexit Britnats, surely?

    22. jfngw says:


      I think you are correct, they have nothing else. Their 2014 arguments are dead in the water.

      The Yes movement will need to be even more vigilant, every negative action, or one that can be spun negative, will be headline MSM stuff. I expect the personal attacks on SNP politicians to ramp up even more.

      There probably isn’t much we can do about this as they control the media, it is people on the ground who will need to counteract the negative. Let’s hope there is enough of them with the communication skills to get out a positive message.

    23. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      You ask the wrong question @Muscleguy says at 11:22 am

      “I wonder how many Scots Tories would have opposed my wife and kids coming here?”

      How about:

      “I wonder how many of the 77% of Tory Voters in Scotland who oppose the SNP’s plan to boost the Scottish economy via more immigration are themselves immigrants to Scotland (from NornIrn, England, Wales or further afield) and therefore even more hypocritical than normal?”


    24. Welsh Sion says:

      Craig P says:

      2 July, 2018 at 1:01 pm

      Ruth Davidson’s Tory separatists

      Ruth Davidson’s Brexit Britnats, surely?


      Either, Craig P. Their nationalism is aimed at separatingus from Europe and the Rest of the World. (In any case, I was playing on the idea that it is us who are usually considered to be the nasty seps …)

    25. Bob Mack says:

      Tory election manifesto

      “If you don’t look Anglo Saxon your out.

      Even if you do, you could still be out”

      Someone once posted on here about us not being helpful by hating Tories because they are potential voters. Sorry, but I do, and the above results show exactly why.

    26. Nation Libre says:

      Rather unfortunately for the Times also is the fact that their poll points out that quite clearly, this is not a Nationalist movement in the way the Unionists/BritNats like to portray it. With 71% of SNP voters thinking immigration would help, how can it be nationalist

      Something we in the Independence movement (and BritNats for that matter) already know

    27. Dr Jim says:

      77% of Tories in favour of drowning foreigners

      Now that’s a catchy headline

    28. liz g says:

      Macart @ 12.48
      Welcome back Macart… Hope you are well rested and ready to go!

    29. Scottish Steve says:

      No matter what the poll subject matter is, somehow the Tory respondents always manage to show themselves up as terrible people. But I suppose every society has its arseholes.

    30. Craig P says:

      Welsh Sion – I’m going for The Sun style alliterative headline 🙂

    31. Thepnr says:

      It’s interesting that 77% of Tory voters oppose immigration to Scotland that would boost the economy and that exactly 77% of Lib Dems would support it. Their thinking is the polar opposite of each other on this topic and I’m sure it won’t be the only one.

      A 2nd EU referendum for example or any of the old favourites like capital punishment. These huge differences in opinion didn’t stop the two parties forming a coalition in Westminster though and given the opportunity if the Tories ever became the largest party in Holyrood I think the Lib Dems would do it again if it gave them a share of power.

      PS Nice to have you back Macart.

    32. Dan Huil says:

      The Rev on form again, and yet again we see why supporting sites like WOS is so important to fight the britnat liars.

    33. galamcennalath says:

      Bob Mack says:

      not … hating Tories because they are potential voters

      I try to separate that vile political party from those who vote for it.

      While the party is undoubtedly nasty and represents the callous uncaring side of human nature, not all its voters are quite so vile!

      I think all young Tory are probably nasty types, however I do know a number of elderly folks who are basically quite decent individuals. Sometimes it beats me to understand why they vote Tory. Perhaps it’s because the Tories have managed to capture the nostalgia vote. I hold out hope that these people might be willing vote for the future of their grandchildren, not a glorious past.

      There’s another group of folks we shouldn’t dismiss as potential Yessers. In 2014 there was undoubtedly those who believed their wealth and status relied on the UK. I also hold out hope that come IndyRef2 an iScotland close to the EU might look a better bet for them than a isolated Brexit UK staring into an economic abyss. They may still be vile, but if they can be persuaded that they would be better off with Indy, their vote for YES would be welcome.

      So, don’t give up on ALL Tory voters, just most of them 🙂

      We only need a few percent here and a few there, and we have a solid majority for YES.

    34. Ken500 says:

      Sun reporters and a photographer are out in Glasgow today. Trying to get some mugs to diss the Scottish Gov meal deal restriction. To stop junk food consuming the economy.

      They soon get lost when any support is shown for SNP policy

      Murdoch the mass criminal responsible for sanctioning and killing people. Illegal wars, financial fraud

    35. Fred says:

      @ Ken500, BBC Scotland also pursued an SNP Baaaad line after the 12 o clock news. No business of the Scottish Government what people eat! despite obesity making folk ill, shortening their lives & costing the NHS millions. What has that to do with the government?

    36. starlaw says:

      Regularly see grossly obese children as young as five or six or mabey less make there way to St Johns hospital in Livingston, accompanied by equally obese mother. I feel really sorry for these people who really need help, they won’t get it from the shops.

    37. Cactus says:

      iScotland… powered by Wings.

      Me… empowered by Wings, it was SO necessary, love it!

      Thanks for everything Wings.

      You’re cool.

    38. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      The question is, of course, about the ‘economy’. Not the far more important society that underpins it. That there’s 45% who think it’s bad for the economy really is telling, considering that Scotland is heavily privatised and has extensive foreign ownership of assets: mass immigration would be great for profits in view of this situation. I’m surprised there’s that many who think it would be bad. It’s great for the neoliberal, right wing era we live in.

      However, I’m a little confused as to why you’re so keen, Stuart (at least I infer that you are), on 400,000 immigrants adding immense strain to public services when, in another of your topics – ‘To Have and To Have Not’ on June 24th – you try to partly excuse the SNP from facing responsibility for a perceived deterioration in the NHS, as Scotland’s population has increased by “almost 300,000 extra people – nearly a 6% increase in a decade, more than the entire combined populations of Aberdeen, Cumbernauld and Motherwell – needing health care since the SNP won the 2007 election”; and this is a less intense and less numerous burden than what lies in store, with no practical solutions to austerity or alternatives to neoliberalism being provided by the SNP’s buddies in the Growth Commission.

    39. Dan Huil says:

      We eagerly wait for the Times and other britnat rags to claim Scots really love the tories and their dirty britnat money:

    40. Dan Huil says:

      OT [with paranoia]

      Why has my thistle avatar suddenly appeared years after I tried in vain to get it working?!

      Whaur’s ma tin-foil toorie?!

    41. McDuff says:

      The problem is Doug that if Scotland became too INTER- national it would cease to be Scottish.

    42. Cactus says:

      I’d give an international Scotland a shot McDuff ~

      Let us give independence a chance.

      What we got to lose?

      Nice avatar Dan 🙂

    43. Thepnr says:

      Why there are some that choose to post on Wings rather than the Daily Mail/Daily Express where their posts would be sure to be appreciated is puzzling.

      Unless of course the purpose is to undermine Wings and those that comment btl, that might help explain it.

    44. Cactus says:

      I’d give an international Scotland a shot McDuff ~

      Let us give independence a chance.

      What we got to lose?

      Nice avatar Dan 🙂

      NB This may double post (ah put in the wrang email addy originally.)

    45. potter says:

      @ Reluctant Nationalist
      There are 128000 EU Nationals working in Scotland each contributing £10400 to government revenue. They are not a burden on the NHS, the Tories are.

    46. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      I’m old enough to remember when the Times was a rather excellent newspaper, it is now a pamphlet for the British Nationalist regime.

      Now it just spouts lies just like the rest of the Britnat media.

      It’s a great pity.

    47. Robert Peffers says:

      @Reluctant Nationalist says: 2 July, 2018 at 4:27 pm:

      “However, I’m a little confused as to why you’re so keen, Stuart (at least I infer that you are), on 400,000 immigrants adding immense strain to public services … “

      Aiblins yon micht be because a goodly proportion of those 400,000 immigrants would be consultants, surgeons, GPs, Nurses and highly skilled, x-ray and other medical technicians, manning the SNHS, and propping up the Scottish GP practices now so short of qualified practitioners.

      Another batch would be workers in the care industry and others picking Fruit and harvesting vegetables while others would be working in the hospitality sector.

      Not to mention teachers and tutors that the education system is short of as other European nationals are bailing out of Scotland by the thousands and these are not being replace by either Scots or incoming immigrants from other than the United Kingdom.

    48. Fred says:

      @ Reluctant Nationalist, who do U think is to have the pleasure of wiping your arse when you end up in the care-home & nobody answers the bell?

    49. McDuff says:

      I don`t know what you mean by an international Scotland. Do you mean that Scots would no longer be the dominant population but just one part of an overall mix of different nations, because I wouldn`t like. I like Scotland because of the people, its banter and its culture and that would be under threat if we truly became international.
      In fact the Rev had some interesting data from his recently published English polls which if I remember correctly revealed that over 5 million people from England would move to Scotland if we were independent and in the EU, which would make Scots the minority population in their own country.

    50. liz g says:

      Thepnr @ 5.15
      Sadly I think it’s the latter..

      Not that I’m suggesting it should come to that but…
      It’s worthwhile noting as an illustration, medical care can be give in a Tent,A School Hall and a myriad of locations.
      But it cannot be delivered without -People-
      So common sense would suggest,lack of infrastructure is no a problem. Unless it’s deliberately not addressed,long term.
      But lack of People certainly is a barrier!

      As for prioritising the diets of the general public,from the manufacturing and advertising end… Can’t see any reason not too. Its no us that will be banned from doing something,its them.The “Them ” who should have been snibed from doing it from the minute they attempted it.
      Big business is only howling about it because their now likely to have to change their behaviour,and as usual try to create scapegoats,and outrage,on the off chance the changes would be stopped or dialled back…. Cui Bono indeed?

      And I would urge any Winger to take a good look the next time they pass a School,there’s not as many overweight kid’s as some like to tell us there are!

    51. Cactus says:

      Evenin’ McDuff, dunno… you tell me.

      Enjoy the football and the sunshine. 😉

      What’s your prediction for the football game bud?

      Let us go international.

      Ye’ll love it!


    52. PacMan says:

      Truth @ 2 July, 2018 at 12:59 pm

      IIRC, a few weeks ago, either the Sunday Times or the Sunday Post had a headline which claimed a secret report alleged potential terrorist suspects and illegal immigrants where slipping into the UK using the Northern Ireland to Scotland route.

      If my memory is correct, it does add credence to your argument.

    53. Cactus says:

      SO say…

      “In fact the Rev had some interesting data from his recently published English polls which if I remember correctly revealed that over 5 million people from England would move to Scotland if we were independent and in the EU”

      Good, more than welcome.

      Come and join us.

    54. Liz g says:

      McDuff @ 6.01
      The Scottish Culture survived where ever it has gone.
      Cultural heritage is kept alive through being able to express it… Not by being the Dominant one….
      Westminster dressed the English culture up as British because it was the Dominant culture and because it wants to stay the Dominant culture.
      Have ye learned nothing?
      An international Scotland is nothing to be afraid of,Cactus is right,the sooner the better..

    55. Macart says:

      @Liz g

      Don’t know about the rested bit, (it’s been a helluva couple of weeks), but I’m always ready to go.

      It’s that time of life I’m told. If I go for a snooze in an awkward position? I wake up requiring traction. 😀

    56. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Peffers, that’s nothing but blind faith that it’ll all be proportionately perfect. It’s a huge figure, 400,000; are you really confident that it’ll all work out?

    57. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Truth @ 12:59:

      You see, they know they can lose the next one and immigration and xenophobia is going to be their trump card.

      You beat me to it. This is my view also. Some Yes-Leavers were unlocked by the EURef and this has given the BritNats a crack they hope to exploit to prevent us crossing the winning line. The Sunday Times is trying this one out for size.

      It’s a Pavlov’s dog whistle for some. These people are not only concerned about the EU “ruling us”, they are afraid of being “swamped” as well. Genuine concern about native cultural values can be exploited and amplified out of all proportion. Playing on people’s fears.

      I don’t understand why Nicola takes great pain to make clear that immigrants (esp. from elsewhere in Europe or from the diaspora) are a necessary economic good, yet can’t stop pussy-footing over the EU, when the issues are one and the same, really.

      I believe it can be countered, however. The best antidote to this kind of likely scaremongering is to simply say: who do you want to have long-term control over immigration to Scotland: the people of Scotland or somebody else?

      To tweak an old political phrase, it’s (always) about autonomy, stupid.

    58. Dr Jim says:

      A wee boy from a foreign country has been saved from deportation he about to be thrown out back to a country he didn’t even know, he goes to school here, he plays football here, he goes swimming with his pals here, he has the same accent as his pals now because he’s become Scottish just like the pals he’s growing up with

      I was born here but my Mum was English her Dad was from Ireland and who the hell knows where everybody else came from
      this talk of foreign people gives me the pip and it reminds me of my youth when gangs roamed the streets demanding to know which school you came from so they could make up an excuse to get the fighting started, or if you were out of your neighbourhood near their street where you had no right to be, fear of foreigners is the same nasty stupid insecure thing, children in nurseries don’t need to speak the same language or be the same colour to know they’re playing with each other

      We’re all immigrants from somewhere

    59. Cactus says:

      Game on.

      Good luck international teams of this world.


    60. Liz g says:

      Macart @ 6.36
      Comes to us all my friend…
      You could have a bit of practice to ease ye back into the debate right here.
      There seems to be a push on to draw us into an “immigration bad” debate!
      Culture and infrastructure this time!
      But, hay ho the Sun’s off the garden (Scottish Skin) so I’m heading out there for a couple of hours.
      Then I’ll come back and demonstrate how a Written Constitution negates all that bullshit…well I will if my joints can still move…LOL..

    61. ebreah says:

      If you want to know why Scotland needs immigration badly, you just have to look via the ageing population issue and it will be a full blown crisis very very soon. In an ideal situation, one OAP should have a dedicated full time carer. For each carer, he/she needs full financial support, either from a person (spouse, partner, parent, child etc) or from the state (via taxation/benefit). If you divide Scotland in 20-year age groupings (roughly a generation) and calculate the population needed by doubling the population every age grouping as it cascades downwards from the total OAP population, you will find out that there is simply not enough people in Scotland to take care of its OAPs. When I did the calculation a few years back, the ideal population was 14 million. Scotland may not need 14 million people, but it has to double its population soonest possible at the very least in order to avoid the ageing population crisis. That 400,000 immigrants boost is very conservative (no pun intended) to say the least.

    62. jfngw says:


      5 million people are not going to come to Scotland from England. People always make types of claims when faced with a situation they don’t want, you will be lucky if 1% of these actually up sticks and move. One winter here would probably result in lots of them moving back anyway.

      Even if they did move it would still be the democratic wishes of those living in Scotland that elected the government. Better than what we have at present. And remember most of them won’t be Tories as they will be living happily ever after in Brexland.

    63. Juan says:

      When will the Scottish governments “FEARMONGERING” begin? Unlike “Better Together’s”, this would be truth and our future reality, if we allow the Brexitosser extremists of the Tory regime to dictate our future. A poster campaign with a photo of the EU and non EU queue at an airport would help focus the minds of the “I’m alright jack” No voters of 2014. The non EU queue is always double or more of the EU citizen queue. The non EU queue also moves much more slowly. They’ve got migrants and refugees to process and documents to check.
      I know this seems petty compared to the likes of the privatisation of the NHS, end of Devolution and many other realities that are about to be inflicted upon us, but these No voters turn a blind eye to the Tory regimes killing of the disabled. If it doesn’t effect them personally and immediately, it makes no difference to them.
      Now. Would’ve been a good time to start this as many will be off on holiday and can view the non EU queue and picture themselves there, next year.

      If only we had our own media to get the message out. We don’t, but we’ve access to thousands of advertising billboards.

    64. Cactus says:

      Guess it’s just all about understanding the People beyond the politics.

      To learn.

    65. Clootie says:

      …once upon a time we didn’t get this analysis of unionist propaganda. 🙂

    66. Macart says:

      @Liz g

      Immigration bad? It’s good and bad like everything else. Part of being a grown up country and population. You take in what you can because you’re able to and because you need to. Scotland has an ageing population. We need new Scots, fresh blood if you will. They’ll come and they’ll contribute to both our tax base and our culture. Win win so far as I’m concerned.

      Culture is an ever changing and evolving thing. We’re all immigrants at the end of the day and each nationality that has stayed in our wee corner of the globe has left its mark on Scotland’s long history. (shrugs) In short, we’re already an international community. 🙂

    67. Cactus says:

      There is an international football player called.. ‘showed ye’.

      Aye heard it on the wireless radio.

      Hauf time soon.

    68. jfngw says:

      I no longer really care if the price to pay for independence with a connection to the EU is a hard border with rUK. I am thoroughly fed up with the threats about it. Maybe Brexit will be England”s Darien scheme, with Scotland having the trade routes to the EU, it would be an amusing irony, a sort of Union bookends.

    69. Macbeda says:

      O/T but on a numbers theme.

      The SNP have around 100,000 members and there are around 2,500,000 eligible voters in an Indy ref.
      Doing the math, as our US friends, would say means that one(1) member just needs to deliver twenty five(25) sets of leaflets to their neighbors. Even half the number just need to get 50 sets to their neighbours.

      My street has 58 people in it and I’ll be delivering regularly to each one and I’m nort an SNP member but I believe in Indy.

      Just a thought.

    70. Cactus says:




      Belgium 1-0 Japan.

      On the 66th minute hahaha.

    71. Ian Foulds says:

      Nice one, Doug Bryce at 11.23am

    72. Thepnr says:

      Talking of immigrants.

      Most Holy Father and Lord, we know and from the chronicles and books of the ancients we find that among other famous nations our own, the Scots, has been graced with widespread renown.

      They journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes, but nowhere could they be subdued by any race, however barbarous.

      Thence they came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to their home in the west where they still live today.

      The Britons they first drove out, the Picts they utterly destroyed, and, even though very often assailed by the Norwegians, the Danes and the English, they took possession of that home with many victories and untold efforts; and, as the historians of old time bear witness, they have held it free of all bondage ever since.

      So says The Declaration of Arbroath and makes it look like an awful lot of us who call ourself Scots have our original history around Northern Iran. Isn’t that strange?

    73. jfngw says:

      You need to really see the media in Scotland as a bit like being in an occupied country during the war. In theory you have your own government and media but these are actually under the control of another country. This media must always push the priorities of the governing country whilst denigrating any positive contribution from the local government.

    74. Legerwood says:

      Just on a point of information: where does the 400,000 figure come from and over what timescale?

      If I remember correctly, during the indyref it was said that immigration would have to increase from the then current 22,000 or so to 24,000 or so.

    75. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      You just had to listen to BritNat Broadcastings Radio Shortbreid vs BritNat Broadcasting R4 on Merkel and Immigration deal may bring doon her coalition @Truth says at 12:59 pm

      “I’m afraid the unionists are flying kites here and many of us and the Yoon audience have missed the point.”

      Any Propaganda Tax paying or Tech savvy Winger able to post audio links if possible.

      Radio Shortbreid has a dude on giving it German public are like UK and don’t want open borders/immigrants.


      BritNat Broadcasting R4 has guest on giving it population/electorate agree with Merkel.

      Insular Racist Xenophobic (Greater England) Brexit Bwitain


      Outward Looking Internationalist Indy Scotland

      The removal of EU Citizens right to vote in Indy Ref2 will definitely happen if post 29th March 2019 🙁

    76. Cactus says:

      Well played international Japan.

    77. Cactus says:

      Next game… new game, Japan vs…


      Love football.

    78. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I’ll paraphrase Thepnr here:

      Typing of immigrants…

      This may be of interest to Yessers/Wingers in the Dundee/Angus/NEFife areas. 14th July – Bastille Day…

    79. Thepnr says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon

      Never knew of that, sounds like a good day out. Will hope to make it.

    80. jfngw says:

      At least I’ve now worked out what UK single market will be like compared to EU single market.

      EU single market, regulations agreed by all nations and a nation can veto anything that is against their interest

      UK single market, regulations made with the agreement of the largest country, no veto will be allowed no matter how detrimental it will be to the smaller country. The requirements of the largest country will always take precedent, and if required that country will change any laws in the smaller country for their benefit.

    81. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Thepnr at 7.58

      Actually 12% of Scots men have berber in their DNA which supports the legend of Scota leading a tribe that came from behind the middle east, along across North Africa into Iberia and then into Ireland.

      Have you seen any of the wee gingery bearded Taliban from the north of Afghanistan?

    82. Thepnr says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill

      I didn’t know that but it kind of makes sense as Iran was the “birthplace of civilisation” and where crops were first grown or so they say.

      Quite proud to learn that the Scots are from the birthplace of civilisation. I guess Ruth might not be Scots after all as there is nothing civilised about the Tory party.

    83. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      @ Legerwood

      I think the 400,000 figure comes from the SNP’s Growth Commission, as part of a solution to deficit reduction (!); or rather, it comes from an answer that Andrew Wilson gave when asked if the number of immigrants needed for their masterplan would be ‘closer to 40,000 or 400,000’. So, probably 600,000, then. Tee hee.


    84. Cactus says:

      Crazy, i take walk to the bar and on the screen, Belgium have returned wae two goals.


    85. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Check the link @ jfngw says at 8:25 pm

      “At least I’ve now worked out what UK single market will be like compared to EU single market.”

    86. Macart says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill

      Interesting piece here by Taranaich over on Wilderness of Peace from 2016.

      Worth a reading. 🙂

    87. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      I like the fantasy of us coming from Iran. Good people.

    88. jfngw says:

      @Jockanese Wind Talker

      Hadn’t seen that tweet, it was actually a James Kelly tweet that put the idea in my head.

    89. Cactus says:

      Wings Over Whiteinch! WOW!

      Cheers Belgium.

      That was fun.


    90. ben madigan says:

      @yesindyref2 who said
      “It’s another Unionist half-story, where Scotland exports more to the rUK than it does to the Rest of the World so BE VERY AFRAID the rUK will stop trading with Scotland out of spite.”

      Ok let’s accept that’s the rUk ‘s spiteful position.

      Time for Scotland to say that as an independent country she will be like ireland and open up new markets and sea routes, so she can organise transport and trade wherever she wants, particularly within the EU.

    91. Rock says:

      The fake “independence supporting” The National doesn’t have brilliant articles like these as front page headline news because its only purpose is to milk the most gullible independence supporters without increasing support for independence.

      Every penny spent on the fake The National keeps its elder sisters The Herald and The Sunday Herald alive.

    92. Cactus says:

      Tory census.

      Opposed 77%.

      Choose yer club voters of Scotland xx.

    93. Cactus says:

      Devo Vevo.

      Put yer hands on your…

      Your choice boss.

      Be happy.

      Be good.

    94. PacMan says:

      I’d be wary to look at immigration as the only solution to an ageing population.

      The city of of Toyama in Japan is dealing with it’s ageing population by encouraging elderly resident to move closer to the city centre through subsidies as close to the route of the cities tram system. This allows the residents to access the relevant services more easier and makes the delivery of these services more cost effective, not to mention giving the residents a better quality of life. Details are in this link:

      A small Japanese city shrinks with dignity

      This may be possible with the cultural norms of Japanese society and might not work in it’s entirety here but there could be aspects of it that could be workable here.

    95. Rock says:

      Thepnr says:
      2 July, 2018 at 5:15 pm

      “Why there are some that choose to post on Wings rather than the Daily Mail/Daily Express where their posts would be sure to be appreciated is puzzling.”

      Could it be that they are smart enough to know that trying to convince Tories to vote for independence is the ultimate in stupidity?

      Thepnr (10th May 2015 – “The power of the press”):

      “Embrace the NO voters, even the Tory ones if you hope to reach your ultimate goal.”

      Rock (26th November 2017 – “The National FAQ”):

      “How many have you converted so far since you started “embracing” them in May 2015?”

      Thepnr (26th November 2017 – “The National FAQ”):

      “Precisely none Rock though that won’t stop me trying.”

    96. PacMan says:

      I’d be wary to look at immigration as the only solution to an ageing population.

      The city of Toyama in Japan is dealing with it’s ageing population by encouraging elderly resident to move closer to the city centre through subsidies as close to the route of the cities tram system. This allows the residents to access the relevant services more easier and makes the delivery of these services more cost effective, not to mention giving the residents a better quality of life.

      My previous post about this didn’t get published, not sure if I’m allowed to post hyperlinks or not but details can be found by googling Toyama compact city strategy

      This may be possible with the cultural norms of Japanese society and might not work in it’s entirety here but there could be aspects could work here, if not already being implemented already.

    97. Robert Peffers says:

      @McDuff says: 2 July, 2018 at 6:01 pm:

      … I like Scotland because of the people, its banter and its culture and that would be under threat if we truly became international.”

      That’s because the people of Scotland have always been international, McDuff. One thing about Scotland, and the peoples of Scotland is that we are international and we always have been international.

      It is an essential part of us being Scottish. Now I’ll tell you some wee true stories from our Scottish history but also involving English history because the two histories are inexorably interlinked. And I quote:-

      “In 1290, the entire Jewish population of England (about 3,000 people) was expelled from the country on the orders of Edward I.

      Jewish people had only been in England since the Norman Conquest, invited to settle there by William the Conqueror. From the late eleventh century onwards, the Jewish community quickly became an essential part of the English economy: Jews were permitted to loan money at interest, something Christians were forbidden from doing. Jewish settlements in important towns such as London, Norwich and Lincoln prospered. England’s Jews were skilled individuals, who worked as doctors, goldsmiths and poets. But lending money was their primary source of income, and Jewish people were fundamental to the working of the English economy. Jewish lenders provided loans for many of the most important figures at the royal court (for the purchase of castles, payment of dues to the king, etc). They were also exploited by kings, who were often in dire need of money.”

      Now note that, in the first instance those, “English”, monarchs were after, “The Norman Conquest”, of England”, and the name Norman means those English Monarchs were from, “Normandie”. But the name, “Normans”, is a corruption of “Norsemen”. So the Normans were just a continental European faction of the “Anglo-Saxon”, Germanic Tribes that took over running South Britain after the Romans left South Britain and these it were that named south Britain, “Angle Land”, and the last Roman soldiers left Britain in AD 410. So the, “English/Anglish”, who expelled the Jews from south Britain were foreign immigrants to England but North Britain was not either part of Roman Britain nor of “Angle Land”. Those Jews that were expelled from England/Angleland”, did not get officially allowed back into Angleland until 1656, after they had been banned from Angleland for some 366 years but the Jews have never been officially expelled from Scotland ever. There have been Jewish families living in Scotland continuously since the English expulsions of the Jews from England and those Jewish families long ago assimilated and became Scottish because that is how you get to be one of the peoples of Scotland.

      So what about the equivalent periods of our Scottish History?

      Well think on this, Robert The Bruce was a Norman Knight whose Mother was from an ancient Scottish noble family. However, there was no Norman Conquest of Scotland because the Normans came, much like the expelled Jews, from England but not by way of conquest but by integration – much like the expelled Jews = That is the Scottish way throughout our history. BTW: The Wallace was also a Norman Knight – was he too not Scottish in your estimation?

      He did, after all, die a hideously cruel death at the hands of our southern neighbours for defending Scotland against the Anglish.

      King Robert’s wife and daughters were also cruelly dealt with by the Anglish for being Scottish.

      So there you go, McDuff, most Scots families including major parts of the West of Scotland Protestants and the West of Scotland Roman Catholics were both previously immigrants from Ireland who returned to Scotland after being made parts of, “The Plantations”, of Ireland by the Anglish Monarchy in the Norman Conquests of Ireland.

      But here’s the thing – in Scotland we generally do not ghettoise immigrants with the results that they soon assimilate as the peoples of Scotland that you have professed, (upthread), to like them being Scottish.

      Now here’s a wee personal example of that fact – Many years ago my late wife and I were walking in the Royal Mile during the Edinburgh Festival. We stopped outside a shop that had lots of good quality Scottish things on display to admire the quality of the goods and the geed taste used in how the stuff was displayed. Standing outside that shop was a tall bearded Sikh shopkeeper dressed in full Sikh regalia but with a tartan turban and wearing a Tartan sash.

      My wife spoke to him complimenting him of the good taste and good quality of the goods on sale. I said to the tall bearded man that I was surprised that a Sikh should outdo the many displays of real tourist trap tat in the shops around us.

      The Sikh replied in a strong Leith Accent, “Ach! Robin, dev ye no ken yer auld scuil pal syne ye gaed tae Fife”. First of all it had been a long time since any but a family member called me Robin and secondly how the hell was I supposed to recognise anyone under all that facial fungus.

      It turned out the Sikh was a classmate of mine when I attended secondary school in Leith way back in the late forties/early 1950s. Back then Leith was still a full blown and busy port and this guy’s family had been Leither stevedores for God alone knew how long. He had been one of our group who followed Hib & Hearts week about and who had gaed tae the Jiggin at The Eldorado Stadium & Ballroom on Saturday Nights. That’s when we weren’t at The Fountainbrig Pally.

      So there you go – there is no such thing as a Scottish People – we are, and we always have been, the Scottish Peoples and we are better for it. Is there any place in Scotland that does not have its Italian Chippie or Ice Cream Parlour? Is there a place in Scotland without a Chinese Take away?

      Scotland has always assimilated the immigrants – well except for certain factions of, “The Anglish”, but I’m glad to say we even have an, “English For Indy”, faction in the YES movement and we are all the better for it.

    98. Cactus says:

      Rock knows.

    99. Cactus says:

      Just agitating… as ever, Thepnr knows.

      Let’s go Scotland…

      South side.

    100. Thepnr says:


      Rock is good for a laugh, he’s actually talking me up when he posts the same shite over and over again.

      I’m quite pleased that I’d said “hug a tory” back in 2015 and that I’d never stop trying to get them to vote Yes in 2017.

      Rock thinks that slagging me off LOL.

    101. stewartb says:

      On migration, its worth getting some context.


      In 2017, National Records of Scotland (NRS) published forecasts for the population of Scotland: the projections are based on a set of underlying demographic assumptions regarding future fertility, mortality and migration. The forecasts use assumptions based on past trends: they do not take account of potential future changes that may come about as a result of new policy initiatives. However, the forecasts may reflect the past impact of policy and economic changes. These projections are not, therefore, forecasts of what government might expects to happen based on future, yet to be implemented, shifts in policy.

      On this basis:

      – the population of Scotland is projected to rise from 5.40 million in 2016 to 5.58 million in 2026- and to continue to rise to 5.69 million in 2041 – an increase of 5% over the 25 year period. All of the projected increase in Scotland’s population over the next 10 years is due to net in-migration: 58% of net in-migration is projected to come from overseas over this period, with 42% from the rest of the UK

      – the number of people aged 75 and over is projected to increase by 27% over the next ten years

      – Scotland’s projected population growth of 5.3% over the next 25 years compares with a figure of 11.1% for the UK as a whole: England up 12.1%, NI up 7.6%, Wales up 4.6%

      – natural change (the number of births minus the number of deaths) is projected to be negative in each year of the projection. By 2041 it is projected that there will be over 10 thousand more deaths than births each year

      – however, it is important to acknowledge that the level of projected population change varies under different assumptions, notably under different plausible assumptions about fertility, mortality and migration.

      So, in any discussion of new policy proposals aimed at promoting an increase in immigration, it is important to know whether the figures being quoted in the proposal are: (i) gross or net migration; and also (ii) whether the figures quoted are in addition to or include the above NRS forecasts based on the projection of existing trends.

    102. PacMan says:

      Talking of the ‘UK single market’, I had just read that Tesco is teaming up with Europe’s biggest retailer Carrefour in order to fight back at the likes of Amazon, Lidl and Aldi. As this deal will allow both retailers to sell it’s own products in the others stores, you don’t need to be a rocket scientist to realise that this will help Tesco cope with any type of Brexit. Of course, it remains to see if a product sold in a Carrefour store will be priced the same in a Tesco one.

      Scotland could opt to stay in this ‘UK single market’ and have these possible more expensive food stuff or opt to stay in the European single market and have prices pretty much the same as they are now.

    103. Cactus says:

      We need MORE football…

      Twenty-five hours a day like.

      Aye can’t get enough of ur LOVE.

      One will tell no lies…

      FT Belgium WIN Wingers 3-2.

      Everything will happen in iScotland.

      Do not you know like Yes!

    104. ScottieDog says:

      An interesting repost from a central banker I America when asked about how the govt can’t afford to pay social security to retirees…
      (The problem is not tax revenue)

    105. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      ” ‘Ach! Robin, dev you no ken yer auld scull pal syne ye gaed tae Fife’…

      …So there you go – there is no such thing as a Scottish people”


      Fucking hell

      Oh man. It’s a while since I laughed that hard. Thank you.

    106. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      jfngw @ 20:25,

      That’s the distinction in a nutshell. In one case we have a say and influence, in the other case we don’t and are roundly ignored.

      The “leaders not leavers” shyste always was a complete sham. We’re the tail that can never be allowed to wag the dog, as we’re (in more honest moments) told. (Although, ever-mysteriously, the DUP apparently can.)

      There absolutely must be “English votes for English laws”, we’re also told, but somehow “English Votes for Scottish Laws” doesn’t in the least offend the supposed principles of the BritNats, even the craven Scottish ones.

      What we’re seeing here is that a certain minority within Scotland – who know full well they are a minority – are eager to concede their (and our) sovereignity because it’s the only way they can continue to assert their minority view over the rest of us.

      (Take a bow, Mr. Sillars, because you’re one of those fake democrats, keeping very dodgy company just like Labour did with BT. Sovereignty conceded on the specious London promise of transience is a principle permanently conceded.)

    107. Cactus says:

      Have a most excellent evening Belgium.

      They & you have earned it.

      Take 2morrow aff like.

      3 day week.

      “Wait for..


    108. PacMan says:

      Going O/T, I heard about a form of Russian street football called Korobka while watching one of the games at the weekend. Korobka is a fast paced football game played in small caged play areas that are dotted all about Russian urban areas.

      While we have a lot of good football facilities here, youngsters can’t really play a lot of outdoor football due to the weather and it is hard for those whose parents on low income to afford to travel to and pay into indoor facilities. It sounds to me that with these Korobka type facilities here, football skills could be honed quicker for a lot more kids who would play short games where the ball is in play for longer in between showers. The result of this might be in the long term our national game could be improved especially if tournaments are held making it easier for scouts to spot potential talent.

      I’m not knowledgable on football and would like the views of those who are about this.

    109. mike cassidy says:

      That really is a fascinating read about how one Japanese city is coping with an aging population.

      I’ve archived it here.

      It looks like we might all be living near to Mr Peffers pretty soon!

    110. Cactus says:

      Be upbeat Glasgow.

      Be upbeat Scotland.

      Tis comin’ yet…

      “It’s just another Mental Monday…”

      Credits to The Bangles.

    111. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Of course, whatever else happens re immigration, it is only with a resurgent independent Scotland that our native population (of whatever origin) will be able to prosper and multiply.

      This is the other side of the coin. Our own immigrants (to elsewhere).

      Scotland has lost too many good people through the centuries who concluded that their own futures would be better served elsewhere. We have been bled dry of people by economic and cultural policies that were utterly inimical to Scotland.

      As others have previously mentioned on WoS, Scotland’s population in relation to England’s has been in decline ever since the Union began.

      So if you care about a dwindling native population, the answer is obvious. It’s only with independence and the power to effect the necessary changes, both economic and cultural, that we can turn matters around in respect of a resurgence of oor ain folk.

    112. Dr Jim says:

      News just in Theresa May has a new plan for Brexit and next time she goes to Brussells she’s wearing a Pith helmet and bally well shouting in a loud and commanding tone at these dashed Johnny Foreigners until they do as they’re bally well told don’t you know

      Thet’ll show the blighters who the Bringlish are by jove

    113. @Robert Peffers

      the name/word Angle comes from the early Germanic for crooked or twisted or not straight,

      like `ankle` where your leg twists to your foot or in geometry an angle,

      so the etymology of `England` is The Land of the Twisted Crooks,

      true story.

    114. galamcennalath says:

      Just been reading about TMay’s latest imminent solution to customs which they presumable believe will solve both the issues of Ireland and future EU trade. Sounds like keeping alignment on UK goods but not services. This in turn sounds a bit like the EU-Canada deal with involves only goods. Key to winning the hard Brexiteers support will be the ability to make trade deals with other countries.

      Here’s the crunch though, the EU already has all the best trade deals and we have access to them at the moment. And the EU are negotiated many more. So, where are these amazing trade deals the EU hasn’t managed to get?

      Simple answer, must be the US, because the Yanks have totally shit standards on goods especially food.

      What the mad bad ultra right Tories want is a deal with the US where the UK gets flooded with US crap, but UK services get full access the US. The UK economy is 70% services based already. They must believe they can beat the Yanks on service provision and sacrifice the production side.

      Thatcher was willing to throw manufacturing under the bus for ideological reasons. Now her torchbearers want to throw what’s left including our agriculture and food sectors.

      The whole thing seems flawed illogical nonsense!

      None of this suits Scotland at all. We need to pull the ejector seat lever soon!

    115. yesindyref2 says:

      @mr thms / @ben madigan
      I probably didn’t explain it very well, what I’m saying is that the Unionists are saying “Be afraid” by implying our exports to the rUK are at risk. But then so would theirs to us, and they have more to lose than we do, in cash terms, more than 25% more.

    116. Cactus says:

      “Six o’clock already
      I was just in the middle of a dream
      I was kissin’ Valentino
      By a crystal blue Italian stream
      But I can’t be late
      ‘Cause then I guess I just won’t get paid
      These are the days
      When you wish your bed was already made
      It’s just another manic Monday
      I wish it was Sunday
      ‘Cause that’s my fun day
      My I don’t have to run day
      It’s just another manic Monday”

      Said she like… Prince’s burd.

      Did they make LOVE…?



    117. frogesque says:

      @Cactus: 10.38


      You know, sometimes you make sense, more than me anyroads!

      Peace & jelly babies! YES!

    118. Robert Peffers says:

      @Reluctant Nationalist says: 2 July, 2018 at 9:56 pm:

      “Fucking hell
      Oh man. It’s a while since I laughed that hard. Thank you.”

      I’ve always had a wicked sense of humour, Reluctant Nationalist, even my nearest and dearest never could tell when I was, “having them on”, or being deadly serious. Thing is, face to face, I can keep a perfectly straight face while doing so.

    119. Cactus says:

      One is body-bound for somewhere…

      Go Belgium, whit a game…

      Still mesmerised.

      Challenge me…?

      Love everything.

    120. Cactus says:

      We know frogesque… we’re brainstorming.

      It’s in the dictionary.

      One comment leads to another…


    121. Thepnr says:

      This is a big week for the decision as to where we go now on Brexit. The cabinet are off to Chequers. the weekend retreat of the Prime Minster to once and for all sort out their differences.

      So will it be “Deal or No Deal”

      or “Chequers Goes Pop”?

      Likely the latter and the balloon bursts, and after it’s all over we will be none the wiser. My own bet of the outcome is this, the fudge fantasy will come tumbling down.

    122. Cactus says:

      Happy go lucky is headin’ intae toon…

      Be fortuitous.

      I can see U.

      Never lie.

    123. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      @ Peffers

      Got a lot of respect for that kind of humour, never could master it. Too earnest.

    124. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 22:34:

      But then so would theirs to us, and they have more to lose than we do

      Yes, it’s wierd self-induced amnesia (not to say logic reversal) the BritNats deploy there, since they are also claiming that the negative balance of trade the UK has had of late with the EU27 gives the UK leverage!

      The one consistent element is their usual bumptious “heads I win, tails you lose” arrogance.

    125. Tackety Beets says:

      Well now had you asked me about furriners in the 60s, my reply would have been much like many others in that era.

      I could trace both parents family tree back to 1600s literally in the same place/house in west Eiberdeenshire. Assumed as straight forward church going folk & hopefully decent members of the comunity with “Inspector for the poor” , Ministers , police & even a JP , aye & both my grandas were in the same Ludge.

      Pure bred so I am ….smiley ……or am I ?
      My dad had Jet black hair & took a right tan.

      Scroll forward to today, my outlaws were German & Austrian,one brother in law moved for work to Germany & remained. One of my brothers has married a lassie from Ghana currently in France but cant get into UK. 2 Neices have bairns(grown up & lovely adults) who are not caucasian. Another brother is with asian lassie & he currently works in Germany, yet has a place in France etc…..I could go on.

      The reality is we have always connected thro’ the world & the world connects with us.

      Before, Now & always ( more than likely )

    126. Cactus says:

      Where’s all the taxis’ on Fenwick Road right now?

      One must get to the party.

      Devo knows.

    127. Robert Peffers says:

      @PacMan says: 2 July, 2018 at 10:09 pm:

      ” … I’m not knowledgable on football and would like the views of those who are about this.”

      So you haven’t heard of the Scottish, “Tanner ba fitba players”, of Scotland, Pacman?

      As I kid there was always a game on somewhere nearby. Jackets as goalposts and any kind of ball the kids could lay their hands on. There would be games going on both in traffic quiet streets or on any bit of open ground the kids could find. This in spite of the usual Labour Council’s who wouldn’t ever spend money to provide facilities for games.

      Mind you those same Labour Councillors were not overly shy when it came to taxpayer funded foreign trips – To find out how other, usually nice sunny, countries managed their local areas.

      That is the same councillors who insisted on all grassy corners in council estates had wee notices on the end housed, “No Ball Games Allowed”.

      It was council research you understand, that they were conducting but there never seemed to be very much changing because of all that foreign research.

      The likes of Wee Jimmie, “Jinkie”, Johnstone were such, “Tanner Ba”, trained footballers as were the entire team of, “Lisbon Lions”, almost every one of which was born within a very small area of Glasgow and they were the first British Team to win the European Cup.

    128. Still Positive says:

      One of the things we have to do to increase immigration is perhaps some of the expats will come back here – although if they are not earning big money that is a forlorn hope.

      Another is that when we are independent we should pay the least amount of Child Benefit for the first child and the most for 3rd and subsequent children.

      I never got Child Benefit for my first (born Jan 1972 ) until April 1975 just after his younger brother was born. I got £1 for 1st son and £2.30 for second if memory serves me well.

      My youngest son (born 1981) and his wife (born 1986) had their 3rd child last March (just about an hour before Nicola announced another referendum. They come from families of 6 and 5 respectively.

      We need to encourage young parents to have more than 2 children.

    129. Big Jock says:

      Off topic a bit guys.

      Anyone like to guess when Indy ref 2 will be? I have ruled out September 2018, as the final EU meeting is then. Which leaves October this year or March next year. Ruled out the winter months.

      However I have a gut feeling that there might be a Scottish election. This would be in the event of Indy ref 2 being ignored by WM or just never happening.

      An election based on independence vs the union. To me it is quicker,smarter and very hard to ignore.

    130. Robert Peffers says:

      @Scot Finlayson says: 2 July, 2018 at 10:22 pm:

      “the name/word Angle comes from the early Germanic for crooked or twisted or not straight,
      like `ankle` where your leg twists to your foot or in geometry an angle,
      so the etymology of `England` is The Land of the Twisted Crooks,
      true story.”

      Thanks for that, Scot. It will be filed away in the memory banks for future use.

      However, the Germanic Tribes were actually more from Scandinavia than what we know today as modern Germany.

      In other words Norsemen, Vikings

      They were invited to occupy Normandy in much the same way and for the same reason as they were invited to South Britain – to stop their raiding on that region of France and to stop their raids on south Britain – it is arguably a myth that the south Britons invited them in to stop the Scots from invading the south.

    131. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 2 July, 2018 at 10:34 pm:

      “I probably didn’t explain it very well, what I’m saying is that the Unionists are saying “Be afraid” by implying our exports to the rUK are at risk. But then so would theirs to us, and they have more to lose than we do, in cash terms, more than 25% more.”

      Well actually you are not explaining the true picture anyway. This is because you are accepting the statistics according to the Westminster Establishment and those statistics are demonstrably utter mince.

      I’m fed up posting how they are fudging the export figures by counting as English exports those products and produce made elsewhere in the United Kingdom as English Exports if they ge through an English port or airport on their way to foreign parts. Then there is the scam of counting the up to 98% of Scottish oil & gas revenues as from United Kingdom, “Extraregio Territory”, and the way they charge Grid Connection charges on a sliding scale that increases the further from London the generator is situated but also actively subsidising those generators in and around London and those are but a few examples of the fraud that is Westminster statistics.

    132. Thepnr says:

      @Big Jock

      I don’t think we can put a timescale on the next referendum Yet. I think most people would agree that we do need another reason for calling one. Look at the recent Wings poll where only 34% are wanting one before 2021. WTF!

      I already said I was very disappointed in that but no matter how much trust you put in polls you will have to remember not all are like us and ready to go for another referendum tomorrow.

      This will all change IMO once Brexit is clear which could be as soon as next week or more likely the can is kicked down the road for a long time yet.

      There could be another election or another EU referendum, the “transition period” may have no end in sight. Truth is nobody has a clue. I’m willing to be patient because patience is the best thing for now.

      All will become clear and it won’t be good then we will have our opportunity. My gut feeling is late 2020 just before the already agreed transition with the EU runs out in December that year and before the next Holyrood election vote.

      Don’t hold me to that though as right now anything can happen.

    133. Still Positive says:

      Mayhem has ruled out the single market and customs union today in parliament. How does she think the UK (aka England ) is going to survive?

      There is now no doubt that indy is the ONLY way we will survive.

    134. Robert Peffers says:

      Reluctant Nationalist says: 2 July, 2018 at 11:15 pm:

      “@ Peffers
      Got a lot of respect for that kind of humour, never could master it. Too earnest.”

      Aye! But that’ll be because in this instance every bloody word of it is stone cold truth – unless, of course, you can show otherwise. Just because something is said in a humorous manner does not make it untrue.

      Can you, in fact, prove what I have commented is in any way untrue?

      Go on – prove me wrong, Reluctant Nationalist, for once at least attempt to debate an issue.

      The history of Scotland does indeed show that Scotland has always opened its arms to those who would come and join us and fought gallantly against the odds to prevent being taken over by invaders. We successfully fought off the Romans, The Vikings and Norsemen, The Anglish/Normans and the Norman English.

      Our Auld Alliance was with the French who for most of European history were bitterest enemies of the Anglish/Norman dynasties. For heaven sake, the English/British Royals are Germanic and the Hereditary Peers still sitting unelected in The House of Lords are the inheritors of the Norman Conquest of South Britain and those Normans are just another faction of the Germanic tribes that were invited into south Britain when the Romans left.

      No one has conquered the Scottish peoples in war and it took illegal undercover agents of the Westminster Establishment, mainly London Scots, to sign away our birth-right in the Treaty of Union. It is long past time that treaty was exposed for what it was and continues to be – a con trick by criminals.

      Siccna paircel o rogues in ae nation.

    135. PacMan says:

      Robert Peffers says @ 2 July, 2018 at 11:31 pm

      Thanks for the info, Robert. Never heard of Tanner ba fitba players, had a quick google and does seem the stuff of legends.

      Now that you mention it I was doing the same with the windblo’er when I was a wee guy in the eighties. Windblo’er’s where the cheap football’s that you kick and they go for miles.

      Thing is, you don’t see anybody out playing football out on the street any more. Maybe not even the introduction of Korobka style play areas can help Scottish football any time soon. Maybe it is just a case of timing where weans get fed up sitting in the house with their consoles, tablets, etc and get outside and enjoy themselves even when it’s bucketing down 🙂

    136. mr thms says:

      #yesindyref2 @ 10:34 pm

      I understand. It’s just that Scotland’s GDP will be much higher than the official figures in your link because our offshore GDP is attrubuted to an “extra-regio” instead.

      Therefore, the gap in trade between the two countries will be even bigger.

      Also, in 2017/18 oil contributed £17 billion to the UK’s balance of payments and by the end of 2018 production will increase to 1.9 million barrels of oil equivalent per day. The highest figure in 8 years.

      This link shows Scotland’s legal sea boundaries (including a disputed zone)

      I can recall reading Eurostat notes which criticised the UK’s use of ‘extra-regio’. I think it is about time the use of an ‘extra-regio’ to minimise Scotland’s statistics was abolished.

    137. Cactus says:

      Sitting on a park bench…

      Queens Park.

      Now is the time for casino.

    138. Capella says:

      Re football – I’ve not read the thread having binged on The Crown from Netflix. Thoroughly recommend btw.
      Before Thatcher reduced the hours and pay of teachers they used to take after school sports including football. But after they
      were attacked by the Westminster government they withdrew their support. Trust has never been restored.

    139. Cactus says:

      I’ve just realised what the sum of 1745 is…



    140. Cactus says:

      Rev says…

      “God save me from people who imagine I give a fuck about their moral opinions of my jokes and that they should tell me about them.”


    141. Robert Peffers says:

      @PacMan says: 3 July, 2018 at 12:27:

      ” … had a quick google and does seem the stuff of legends.”

      Don’t know about it being, “The stuff of Legends”, but it sure as hell created more than a few. As a schoolboy in Leith we were close to Easter Road Stadium and in those days the Hibs Famous Five were, arguably, the best forward line in the World and the defence was much underrated. |We used to make a bee line to the Old Hibs car park or to Lochend Park and train with the Hibs team.

      The Hibs Famous Five coincided with Hearts
      and their Terrible Trio of Conn, Bald and Wardhaugh and Rangers cast Iron Defence. Scottish football, and Hibs in particular, were taking Scottish football to other areas of the World.

      Hibs it was that organised, “The Fair Cities Cup”, that was eventually to become The European Cup.

      However, as I said there was hardly a bit of waste ground or a grassy corner area in housing schemes that didn’t have an impromptu kickabout going and in any weather. The other great pastime in the new housing estates that were mainly paved with tarmac instead of the older cobbled streets was roller skates.

      These things were made of steel with steel or cast iron wheels. We kids got up of a weekend morning and clamped on our skates and they didn’t come off again till bedtime.

      Which introduced the then newest fads of combining roller skating with football. Boy was it rough. Then the new ice rinks started up ice hockey leagues. So along came rough and ready roller skate street hockey – and that was even rougher. The next fad was the Motor Cycle speedway and the Edinburgh Monarchs club. We kids and not so young kids built a cycle track and raced cobbled together , “Speedway”, peddle bikes and Formed the Granton Gryphons cycle speedway team.

      There were other clubs and it was, to say the least, competitive. Its a wonder how we all survived in those days.

      Last time I passed that way that cycle speedway track was still there. on a wee bit waste ground corner lot by the railway bridge, (or here the bridge once was), just as you came out of Davidsons Mains onto Ferry Road.

      Still and all the Tanner Ba Fitba was still the main pastime and was still producing players the likes of the late great, but personally flawed, Jim Baxter.

      ” … Now that you mention it I was doing the same with the windblo’er when I was a wee guy in the eighties. Windblo’er’s where the cheap football’s that you kick and they go for miles.
      Thing is, you don’t see anybody out playing football out on the street any more.”

      No – there wasn’t the same traffic back then. Not until the days of the Morris Minor and then the Mini could the average working classes afford a motor car. In fact few could even manage a motor bike and sidecar. Even back then the St Cuthbert’s and Leith Provident co-ops were still mainly using horse drawn vans and carts for deliveries and on street sales.

      Mind you there were no commercial vehicle manufacturers and when the co-ops began to use motor transport they were mainly ex-WD lorries and new build variations of wartime forces vehicles.

      Which, of course was why the nationalised BRS, (British Road Services), began one of the very first tax payer funded national assets sold off for a song by the Westminster Establishment.

      They have since sold off just about every other public owned asset ever since and that includes some that were not even government owned, like the TSB, that actually belonged to their shareholders represented by the Trustees. It was actual daylight robbery of taxpayer’s assets.

    142. yesindyref2 says:

      @ Robert Peffers says: “Well actually you are not explaining the true picture anyway. This is because you are accepting the statistics according to the Westminster Establishment and those statistics are demonstrably utter mince.

      You miss the point completely. The point is that in answer to the Unionists saying

      Independence jeapordises the ‘single market’ of the UK, and Scotland’s exports to the rUK of £49.630 bn.

      the simple – SIMPLE not long-winded answer is:

      But the rUK exports to Scotland are worth £62.427 bn – nearly £13 billion more than Scotland exports to the rUK. Are you telling me the rUK would happily do that to spite Scotland? Really?“.

      And it’s Scottish Government figures, not Westminster. You missed where it said “” in the URL I supplied – that’s the domain of the Government of Scotland, not Westminster. Here it is again (page 18):

    143. yesindyref2 says:

      Yup, that’s another good one to throw at them. What I’m doing is building up a wee txt file of answers, as they keep repeating the same old one-sided stuff, and the reply is simple – quote the same side they do, PLUS the other side. And give the source if possible, but the Herald doesn’t seem to like or even URLSs, preferring express, telegraph or dailymail ones it seems to leave and not delete. Bring back Callum!

      @mr thms
      I’m trying to keep it simple, like for like. Things like the extra-regio are another argument, and a contentious one for some. Straight facts reported in the same table on the same page, 3 or 4 columns along, aren’t.

      Fog is the Unionists’ greater weapon, they hide behind it. I try to blow the fog away and expose them in their nakedness!

    144. Cactus says:

      Now is the time for Zappa:

      One has still not sworn.

      Aye wonder wonder.

      18+ certificate.

      Hey Bob.

    145. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 3 July, 2018 at 2:11 am

      ” … And it’s Scottish Government figures, not Westminster. You missed where it said “” in the URL I supplied – that’s the domain of the Government of Scotland, not Westminster. Here it is again (page 18):

      Nope! Wrong again, yesindyref2, because there are, in this instance, no such thing as Scottish Government statistics for the Scottish Government is compelled to use the official Westminster statistics as compiled by either the HM Treasury, HM Customs & Excise and/or the ONS, (Office of National Statistics).

      Just as Holyrood has no other option, (in spite of knowing full well they were instigated by Westminster Tories with the express purpose of lying to the people of Scotland), GERS Figures. The SG publishes these too but they neither collect or compile them. They know they are mince but have no other official figures to use and are not allowed to do so anyway.

      Note however, that the SNP, not the SG specifically, have always disputed the Use of GERS figures.

      All your posted link shows is the Official Westminster stats they allow the SG to use.

      BTW: there are two lots of Civil Servants at Holyrood one lot are Westminster Based and the others directly employed by Holyrood. If your memory goes back far enough you will remember the row when the leading Westminster Civil Servant, (his name escapes me for the moment), was in hot water at Westminster as he had backed FM Alex Salmond and the Westminster Civil Service cabal accused him publicly of, “Going Native”.

      Oh! Hang on! I’ve just recalled that Civil Servant’s name – Peter Houston – and by all accounts a decent guy.

      So now that I remember – here is a link:-

      This is the furore over Peter Houston, “Going Native”, and if that isn’t an insult to Holyrood by Westminster Civil Servants, Scotland and Scots – then what is?

      Ach! I’ve had enough anti-SNP pish for one Wings session and it’s long past my bed-time. Good Night Morning all I off to bed.

    146. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Thepnr @ 00:00,

      I think it’s more subtle than that. At some point – maybe even already – there can be a change of public sentiment, where people might be willing to hear a case that earlier they would dismiss, even though their superficial opinion (as read by polls) hasn’t changed.

      That’s where true leadership comes in. To be able to read that latent change in a timely manner, come out fighting at the right time and make a convincing and forceful case that rallies opinion behind you.

      A foretaste of this was the SNP walkout from the HoC. The success of it surprised the ultra-cautious MPs.

      If we simply wait for an obvious change of public sentiment all of its own accord, we’ll wait forever.

      If we wait for the almighty fudge of Brexit to become fully apparent, we’ll have waited too long, because by then people will have – however reluctantly – accepted the change as a fait accompli and the time to act will have passed.

      It’s all about being primed to act and finding the right moment to make the snowball, give it a push, and watch it tumble down the slope growing ever larger as it goes. There has to be a ready slope, of course, but it’s never gonna happen without the faith and the initial effort.

      (To mix metaphors, the necessary striking the flint that ignites the gunpowder trail to the powder keg.)

      Even if you can’t judge the timing absolutely perfectly, you still have to be prepared to give it a go or forever regret not having tried. The Union case is on the shoogliest of possible pegs right now, with all their old arguments in tatters, and a decent campaign with an astute mix of positive and negative could very easily take us over the line this time.

      If we don’t suffocate ourselves beforehand with an insufficiency of self-belief and an excess of caution.

    147. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      I take it you’ve never heard of SNAP …

      “The Scottish National Accounts Programme (SNAP) aims to enhance the scope of economic statistics in Scotland and to improve consistency and comparability between measures.

      Historically, most of the economic statistics produced for Scotland (GDP, Supply-Use tables etc) relate to Scotland’s on-shore economy. The offshore economy in this treatment (including North Sea output and defence and diplomatic services overseas) are classified as extra-regio (not part of any region of the UK). For a number of years, estimates of value added in the illustrative Scottish share of extra-regio territory have been published in the QNAS publication, and these figures have also be used in the annual GERS publication.”

      Nobody is claiming they are totally accurate – nobody! But SNAP is an initiative of the Scottish Government – that’s the S-N-P Scottish Government. By decrying these statistics, it’s you doing the “anti-SNP pish”. And as you say: “Ach! I’ve had enough anti-SNP pish for one Wings session”. Amen to that.

    148. yesindyref2 says:

      There was an interesting quote from a (NO) commenter in the Herald on the Calman article:

      Calman states quite clearly in the article that he ‘finds it difficult to find the reasons to vote for independence’ – (like the majority of the electorate) – and ‘the links with the UK are hugely important’. So, perhaps he should have waited – like the rest of us – to see what results from the Brexit talks are before jumping into an even bigger mess and speaking out before more is known.

      This bit stands out for me: “So, perhaps he should have waited – like the rest of us – to see what results from the Brexit talks are “.

      For me it shows two things. 1). That some are indeed waiting to see what form Brexit will take, and 2). that some, perhaps like Calman, aren’t, as they can see now what is likely to happen.

      Which shows that Sturgeon’s policy of waiting till the talks are done or nearly done, is the correct one. Even if a very annoying and frustrating wait and see. First Foote (sounds like Hogmanay), now perhaps Calman – Calman!, who next? There are a few signs 😎 And the “summer offensive” ain’t started yet.

      Anyway off to bed, a lot of work to do and I’m too knackered to do it right now. Wife’s 60th last week including a weekend in the Lakes “Potter”ing as in Beatrix, a 60 she nearly didn’t see, and we were celebrating it all week 🙂

    149. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 03:38:

      Wife’s 60th last week […] a 60 she nearly didn’t see, and we were celebrating it all week

      And rightly too!

      The older you get, the more likely you are to have skirted the edge at least once, if not more. And stayed on this side thanks to the fickleness of fate and the mercies of the NHS.

      As my old Da used to say (he made it to 97, which I certainly won’t), “every day is a day of grace”. Which is true for us all, actually. May you both have many more of them together!

    150. yesindyref2 says:

      Thanks! Yup, we’ve all had near death experiences, my son when he was born with a knot in his cord. Not even a boy scout. It makes you think, live every day as though it’s your last, and count your blessings.

    151. Dr Jim says:

      The cotton bud v The Daily Mail

      Every time Union Brexit world is proven wrong they get more angry and entrench themselves deeper in their original lie claiming the people who are proving them wrong are angry people trying to rule over them and they shouldn’t be allowed to be right because the Union Brexit people should be the rulers and don’t make us more angry or else

      What this seems to show is that Union Brexit people are not sane or rational people, or does it

      When cleaning your ears with a cotton bud (which you’re not supposed to do) you stop pushing when you meet resistance and sane and rational people know that because it hurts and can cause damage

      Union Brexit people don’t seem to know how to clean their own ears and when deaf people can’t hear stuff it can make them shout louder about the thing they thought they heard you say which was a thing you didn’t say but because they’re angry about not hearing properly they don’t care anymore and continue to be more angry

      Conclusions: Union Brexit people are using the Daily Mail and other papers like it because they thought we said use a cotton bud to clean your ears or *You’ll fail*

    152. Ian McCubbin says:

      None of the MSM running the dark money scandal no matter how many of us try challenging the yoon pres including the bbc.
      They are all worried and should be. Independence just round the corner.
      Oh and just love lidl, a fortnight

    153. I predict a England, when the 48% who are apparently NOT the ‘Birrish Peeple’ realise that they have been sold into slavery and US colony status by Rees Mogg Fox and Johnson, while May’s Husband’s bosses make a ‘killing’ on hedging for a No Deal Brexit.
      We Up Here need only look on as Poll Tax level riots break out in major centres in England, in London, Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool and Leeds.
      When the English cotton on to the inevitable, that they are being thrown to the wolves and carpetbaggers by their Blue Red and Yellow Tory chancers, and it will hit their pocket hardest, they will rise and demand a Recount.
      It could be something as innocuous as getting humped by South American Manuels at fitba’ the nicht, combined with a heatwave and a shortage of gas to make the Boddingtons, to light the blue touch paper.
      Fortunately, we can stand back and watch the Bonfire of the Vanities.
      It will all be over by October either way.
      Get ready, Scotland, now’s the day and now’s the hour.

    154. Ken500 says:

      UK/US (France) have bern bombing the Middle East to bits for years. Britain and France (US illegally) carved up the Middle East. Lied and cheated. Betrayed and killed people. Kept it secret under the Official Secrets Act. Stole their resources and were responsible for killing, maiming and impoverishing millions. Responsible for atrocities and war crime beyond belief. They try and keep it secret under the Official Secrets Act, Lockerbie and Iraq kept secret for 100 years.

      In Syria with a population of 20million people. 4 million have been displace or killed. Many now are in terrible camps. In Iraq millions were killed maimed or displaced, The US have taken 22,000 Iraq refugees, usually the well heeled. The UK has taken in 1,000 and placed them in the north of England. None in London area.

      The illegal wars could have paid for the best NHS/Education system worldwide. Not only in Scotland. The misuse and lies about the Oil and the other revenues is a scandal. An international scandal. Brown is an absolute and utter liar. An appalling disgrace. Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion.

      The criminals are in the UK cabinet. Hedge fund managers illegal practices. An absolute scandal. That they get away with it, The lack of democracy in the UK is a scandal. Scotland will,once again take it’s case to the UN. For self determination and restitution. Another Indy Ref. The Polls are used to deceive, Treat them with caution.

      The Polls are always wrong used to manipulate the result. Illegal gerrymandering, which is supposed to be punishable with prison. Instead illegally and secretly making money for criminals, Including embezzling public money. The Westminster unionists are in on it. Along with their sycophants in the MSM.

      Now they are trying to destroy Iran. Next on the list. 100 million people. Just absolutely appalling, Iran does not need nuclear. (Wants it for defence from sanctions) It has Oil and solar. In abundance. Until it can change over. The US regime is just despicable. Hopefully the EU will step up to the mark, once again.

      The Tories are just beyond the pale. Sanctioning, starving and killing people. So they can line their pockets with £Billions of public money, Borrowing and spending like their is no tomorrow on any nonsense that comes along. Absolutely no business case. Trying to destroy the NHS/Education and tuin the economy. Brexit. The Westminster unionist clones are lining their pockets illegally with public money. Killing maiming and starving people worldwide. Other countries have to pick up their bloody mess.

      No member of any Orange Lodge or affiliated should be allowed to stand as a candidate in elections. There is a code of conduct. They are breaking the rules. Making false declaration. They are not fit people to stand being members of a secret, unequal, misogynist, racist bigoted society. Lying and causing trouble for years. Breaking UK/EU International Law with impunity. Illegally being funded £Billions for their duplicity and. Unionist votes at Westminster,

      Breaking every Law in the land. Illegally and secretly. Ireland was partitioned. The Irish wanted Home Rule/Independence. Instead they got Partition. The unionists orange minority illegally and secretly got their way. They have been destroying the economy ever since. The membership is falling into disarray and no wonder. £Billions have subsidised their troubles they have caused. Unequal and unfair. Breaking the Law at every turn. Vile bile.

    155. Ian McCubbin says:

      Lidl has just announced a fortnight of hosting special Scottish produce items in stores in Scotland and England.
      Scotland the brand is alive well and kicking.

    156. Famous15 says:

      Just when you thought the Highland Clearance was being reversed at one of its most cruel sites,the village of Embo in Sutherland?

      When I heard the Green MSP bleat a question to the FM I should have known that a seed fly common fro Northumberland to Helmesdale would become more important than young people in Sutherland.

      They will be in breach of international obligations on genocide if this exodus of the indigenous peoples continue. I am urgently seeking advice from the Native Americans who have suffered this death of their culture.

    157. Breeks says:

      The difference between the EU’s Single Market and the UK’s “Single Market” is the equivalent of a conventional marketplace where buyers and sellers intermingle and do the “trade” thing with agreed safety protocols, regulations and standards, and an itinerant street vendor who sells his own product to himself.

      It is literally the difference between people who want to trade by rules, and those who don’t, or at least want to make up their own rules.

      I accept it’s difficult to rewrite 40 years of BritNat Establishment programming, but the EU is not a threat. It is a successful example of the whole being greater than the sum of its constituent parts. It is a trading collective which seeks to benefit its members. The UK has forever struggled with the concept of mutual benefit, forever seeing the EU as a concept that it had to exploit.

      You could write a PhD on the subject of the UK’s relationship with the EU, but the bottom line is that Brexit will see Europe “lose” the disruptive prima Donna attitude of the British, and leave the European States gladdened but bewildered that a country can be so irredeemably reckless and delusional with its own self interest.

      Scotland has to stand apart and form its own grown up relationship with Europe, and in my opinion that means sovereign membership, or continue to be the Prima Donna’s bitch.

      Scotland’s problem however is the 40 years of BBC xenophobic indoctrination that colours peoples’ opinion about Europe, leaving many of us having take the EU on trust, and for many, it doesn’t come naturally.

      Ask yourself what is the worst thing that could happen to an Independent Scotland in Europe. Our currency bound to the Euro? Our wishes ignored? Our sovereignty overruled? Our resources exploited? Our economy suppressed? Our wealth commandeered? THESE ARE FICTIONS.

      Waken up people. Scotland’s very worst “EU Nightmare” scenario is precisely what already happens as Scotland’s everyday waking nightmare as a subjugated lesser part of the UK regime.

    158. Famous15 says:

      Buckaroo bedamned.Support sustainable and environment improving Coul Links.

      I guess I have supported the SNP all my life. The cultural memory of the Highland Clearances burned into my psyche strangely by Labour voting grand parents lies behind my views. In modern times the SNP came to be a better hope. Why call in a plan supported 100% by the local people. Is Green or posh RSPB more important than local people.BTW the golf course will halt erosion and ingress of non indigenous flora and fauna. The science was destroyed in 1943 by necessary military operations shhhhh it is still secret.

    159. Golfnut says:

      Hi Indyref 2,
      Sorry coming in a bit late on this, but I’m struggling with the £62 billion of exports to Scotland, any insight on what it entails or a link would be appreciated. There must be can element of exports to Scotland from all over the world which come via England, are they included in £62 billion figure. Just for example, sorry golf related, much of this is manufactured in China, Taiwan etc. Just look at any clothing label from any retailer, they ain’t made in the UK.

    160. galamcennalath says:

      Having moved so far to the right the Tories clearly have a stronger anti-democracy fascist element than at any time in their history.

      That is what happens when parties move too close to the extremes.

      Fortunately, that’s not a phenomenon near centre parties like the SNP are unlikely to suffer from. Truth is, I’d probably say the same of the LibDems. There isn’t much good I can say about the LibDems, but I’d credit them with avoiding extremists.

      The current Tory party is riddled with extremist of one for or another.

    161. In March 2019,8 short months from now, Boris Johnson will ‘take back control’ and impose fracking, GM crops,plaster the Butcher’s Apron on Scotch whisky, Aberdeen Angus Beef, Arbroath Smokies, and Ayrshire Potatoes.
      Our NHS will be subsumed into a ‘UK’ NHS, and Richard Branson will be gifted my GP Practice, A&E, and PFI will spread to hospitals and schools not conned into decades of debt to Offshore Money Men already by Gordon Brown, the ‘prudent’ Clunking Fist Arch Neo Tory during his time in power.
      Holyrood will be disbanded over time, probably as short as 5 years, and we Scots will be held as prisoners and serfs in an English colony, forbidden by our English Overlords from travelling, working, resettling or retiring in our own continent Europe, by English /US 51st State ‘Homeland Security’.
      Our passports become worthless overnight.
      We are to be held in House arrest for the rest of our lives.
      It is as stark as that.
      We demand our Freedom.
      If Ruth Davidson and that evil bunch of ProudScotsBut Brit Nats are fed up with our demands for Freedom, let them fuck off South to the Mother Country.
      I’ll take at least four to Gretna free gratis.
      They hate the thought of a proud independent Scotland,
      not least of all because it would signal the end of their Elitist Oligarchy, epitomised by the Edinburgh Set and the Oil Barons to the North East.
      I am as mad as hell, and I am not going to take any more.
      Black Saudi Arabia money to Ruth Davidson and her wee clique via the Religious Nuts in Norn Irn?
      Nice little earner for betraying the land of your birth.
      Jesus, why the fuck do we tolerate all of this nonsense any more?
      But never mind, Sally will be on the box at Teatime assuring us that all is right with the world.
      Oh look, another Toodle Oo The Noo squirrel.
      WE are ‘way beyond Tipping Point now.

    162. orri says:

      Beg to differ. The EU is a “threat” if you aren’t in it. Or at least the Common Market was. All the rose tinted goggled retro-vision bollocks misses the fundamental point that the UK was heading down the pan and had to join for it’s own survival.

      Whilst it might be true that some buccaneering ne-er do wells like Farage are held back by EU membership the major impact is the UK is held up. And not in the stand and deliver meaning of the phrase.

      Corbyn’s hard-Brexit desire is a longing for the good old days of the closed shop where unions, in theory, ruled the roost. Just as the conservative ideal is to wreck the unions entirely on “principle”. Neither is the best way to run a country.

      Often wondered why neither flavour of government adopted the methods used by other EU nations and the full implementation of the rules on freedom of movement. Simply putting a time limit on how long you get to stay in the UK without a job might have helped.

      Also the whole we don’t need or want ID bullshit whilst invoking a war time spirit of we’re all in this together is just crap. Control of who registers for services in the UK is possible under EU membership.

    163. Craig P says:

      Breeks, well said.

      The worst case scenario for EU domination already happens to Scotland in the UK!

    164. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 3 July, 2018 at 3:18 am:
      ” … I take it you’ve never heard of SNAP …

      You may take it however you choose to take it but that doesn’t make it factual.

      What is factual is quite simple to understand and it is the real facts. The GERS Figures, (in their entirety) are nothing more than a set of Westminster Civil Service guesstimates made more of a guesstimate by being designed with the specific purpose of defrauding Scotland to benefit Westminster.

      There is nothing about them based upon actual figures and, in the first place not a single penny of the revenues from the misnamed “Extraregio Territory”, that is actually easily identified as from the internationally recognised Scottish Territorial waters that the International Law of The Seas acknowledges are under Scottish Legal jurisdiction.

      You may not have realised the further implication of what that means to Scotland in secondary costs. Here’s just one such implication – who pays for the policing on the installations from below the tidal line to he 200 Mile continental shelf line. It is under Scottish legal jurisdiction and that is paid for by the local Scottish Police force area and Scottish Legal system. Any investigation and subsequent legal action will be paid from within the Scottish Legal system and not by the United Kingdom Treasury. As, for example, was the prosecution of the Lockerbie Bomber – all of that prosecution and subsequent incarceration is funded by Scotland.

      So the adjacent local areas pay for policing of the oil & gas installations both on and off shore right out to the 200 mile limit. There is no input from the United Kingdom Treasury.

      There has been absolutely no financial contribution until recent devolved Income Tax powers were transferred to Holyrood from Westminster other than via the Barnett Formula grant that is NOT based upon anything other than the Barnett Formula that is NOT based upon needs.

      Scotland gets none of the revenue from the off-shore oil & gas sector – not one penny.

      Why then does the Treasury decide that Scotland is only contributing an estimated 8.4%, population based, share of that revenue?

      The simple answer is that the only use of that figure is to influence other guesstimated figures they use to rob Scotland. The whole idea of the produced figures is to deceive Scotland and it is robbery on a massive scale and every guesstimate always tends to go against Scotland’s best interests.

      So tell me – how does SNAP redress the robbery as they are simply offering an alternative set of guesstimates.

      The simple fact that the easily identifiable off-shore territory under Scottish Legal jurisdiction is classed by Westminster as being part of an unidentifiable Extraregio United Kingdom area is the rip-off designed to fool Scots and Scotland.

      Just in case it escapes your ken the term, “Extraregio” is defined as:- territory that cannot be identified but Scottish Territorial waters are not unidentifiable but are falsely classed along with revenue that is invisible and thus the Scottish figure cannot be quantified.

      “The Scottish National Accounts Programme (SNAP) aims to enhance the scope of economic statistics in Scotland and to improve consistency and comparability between measures.

      Historically, most of the economic statistics produced for Scotland (GDP, Supply-Use tables etc) relate to Scotland’s on-shore economy. The offshore economy in this treatment (including North Sea output and defence and diplomatic services overseas) are classified as extra-regio (not part of any region of the UK). For a number of years, estimates of value added in the illustrative Scottish share of extra-regio territory have been published in the QNAS publication, and these figures have also be used in the annual GERS publication.”
      Nobody is claiming they are totally accurate – nobody! But SNAP is an initiative of the Scottish Government – that’s the S-N-P Scottish Government. By decrying these statistics, it’s you doing the “anti-SNP pish”. And as you say: “Ach! I’ve had enough a

    165. Ghillie says:

      Ooofftt. What an amazing thread of comments.

      Especially Jack collatin @ 9.20 am.

      Can I just say, referring to The Times, it is somewhat life-affirming to witness yet another Tory Rag pissing into a gale force wind.

    166. Wullie says:

      When will or Scottish legal system stand up for Scotland and Scots. Have they ever challenged any of the abuses inflicted upon Scotland by our other supposedly equal partner in this union. Or are they just happy that in 1707 they retained their independence, while the rest of the country was thrown to the wolves.

    167. Breeks says:

      Famous15 says:
      3 July, 2018 at 8:53 am
      ……BTW the golf course will halt erosion and ingress of non indigenous flora and fauna. The science was destroyed in 1943 by necessary military operations shhhhh it is still secret…

      Think there is a bad precedent that has been set. Trumps golf course was approved on condition the shifting sand dunes of the Foveran Links were protected, but Trumps golf course stabilised the shifting dunes with vegetation and destroyed its credibility as SSSI. The whole point was the dunes moved, did “erode” themselves in one place to rebuild themselves further on, and did get recolonised by niche vegetation.

      Even supposing the site was bombed to shit in the war, or whatever else happened to it, doesn’t necessarily invalidate the factors which make the site of interest. Why would bombing change the way sand dunes were moved around by the wind?

      The last I heard the dunes near Trumps golf course were to lose their protected status because promises weren’t kept, and their unique characteristics were destroyed.

    168. Ghillie says:

      Breeks that is a true shame.

      All I think we can hope for is that nature, will in time, redress that balance.

      Balmedie is an exceptional place.

    169. Breeks says:

      Craig P says:
      3 July, 2018 at 9:45 am
      Breeks, well said.

      The worst case scenario for EU domination already happens to Scotland in the UK!

      Thanks Craig P, but I would underline again that the worst case scenario of EU “domination” is completely fictitious. What already happens to Scotland in the UK simply COULDN’T happen in the EU because Scotland’s Sovereignty, our opinions, and our capacity to say no, would be respected.

    170. gus1940 says:

      Excellent article in today’s National re The Vigil outside The Royal High pre Devolution.

      I don’t think anybody would deny at it was effective in which case I have been surprised for years that a similar exercise has not materialised during the campaign for Indyref2.

      I would suggest that the most suitable location would be as near as possible to Pacific Quay.

    171. Petra says:

      Just trying to catch up on here hindered by the fact that my home computer either won’t come on or when it does eventually it immediately switches off, so is basically defunct. My husband dragged out another at the weekend that works but has no sound (no speakers) and of course I can’t access my documents etc either. So until the first is fixed, if it can be, I’m stuck with my IPad!

      Anyway I’m getting a right good laugh at some of these posts on here and educated via the Rev, the links and by people like R P at 9:55am, for example I’d never thought about who paid for the policing of the oil and gas installations. Looks as though we’re being made clowns of again. We’ve to pay to maintain and protect their interests. You couldnae make this up.

      So many excellent posts to choose from but Truth’s (12:59pm) sums up, imo, how immigration will be used in an attempt to scupper Indyref2 and how they’ve already started to use their drip, drip, drip propaganda technique.

      Then there’s Cherry’s post from last night at 9:12pm. …….”Brexit – The evidence that we’ve all been conned keeps piling up”, by Graham Van Bergen.

      We’ve been reading about Tory dark money, Cambridge Analytica and so on for months now but this article pulls it (unearthed skullduggery to date) all together. It’s also worth reading the embedded “read their report” that covers the Scottish Referendum, Survation and sleekit wee manipulative Curtice (Sir now – surprise, surprise) etc, etc, etc.

      Amazing to think that these people are getting away with this, media sources such as the BBC aren’t reporting on it, individuals like Davidson aren’t being questioned and con men like Farage aren’t behind bars right now. In light of the facts, in these articles and taken from elsewhere, both Referendums should have been made null and void imo.

    172. yesindyref2 says:

      There are breakdowns by sector, not sure if that’s any use though. I’m guessing, and it’s a pure guess, that since most importers are in England, where goods are imported by the container load, that counts for them as an import from the rest of the world, whereas sales from those importers to us count as an exprt from rUK to Scotland. So, for instance, I buy most of my supplies from England or Wales, they’d count as imports from the rUK. But it is a guess.

      @Robert Peffers
      Again you miss the point. GERS itself has acknowledged, despite what the Unionists try to claim,, that it is based on estimates. But if you’ve followed as I have, GERS since 2012 you’ll note that methodologies have changed, AND been applied retrospectively to previous GERS.

      The SNP since 2008 I believe, have worked hard to get more accurate figures, figures broken down more in detail. Years ago let’s say, Scotland was allocated UK wide expenditure regardless as a share, to the extent of say 50%, whereas it’s now down to 20% or less, as the other 80% is broken down on a more specific nature.

      But it’s a slow and ongoing process. and SNAP is an ongoing attempt to make the detail more accurate, more specific. The whole thing is still based on estimates though, and figures are quoted to statistical confidence levels. Well, I did stats, and a 95% confidence level doesn’t mean it’s correct, it means there’s a 5% chance it’s NOT within the range of accuracy quoted.

      But on top of that as Richard Murphy correctly pointed out, expenditure BY the UK Gov on behalf of Scotland, totally ignores WHERE the economic benefit is. As Murphy says, the whole accounting procedure is wrong, as it should be based on an accruals basis, something many small businesses (like mine) understand fully. The SNP are now talking about the WHERE of the expenditure. What that would lead to I don’t know, and hopefully long before there’s any reasonable progress on that we’ll be offski, Independent.

      The economic benefit of expenditure “on behalf of Scotland” by the UK Government, but carried out in the rUK could be worth £billions, and THAT is an offset against the so-called deficit, maybe even a 100% offset – or more.

      Meanwhile I fight the battle of the economy on the basis of avaliable information – precisely as does the SNP and the Scottish Government. That is all we have.

      Basaically your comment while aimed at me, is an SNPbad one, as it effectively calls the SNP fools and knaves. Well Robert, they ain’t, they work within the framework as best they can, while also working to improve it year by year. Try reading the information ScotGov gives us on its website. The URL is:

    173. exile says:

      Ian McCubbin @ 08.20

      I hope you’re right about Scotland the brand. Yesterday in N of England M&S I bought Scottish strawberries, from an Angus grower, with Saltire (but wrong pantone) as background on label. (Not perfect, but better than UJ as background.)

    174. Lenny Hartley says:

      O/T i found this amusing, got talking to somebody wh0 worked at Faslane a couple. Of years ago.
      Nicola was visiting Helensburgh and a few of the sailors were in the bar the previous night planning to disrupt her visit . A squad of them went to Helensburgh and when the came back they were asked what the did to disrupt her visit. The said nothing, we seen her in the street chatting away to people so approached her ourselves and she was really nice.
      Nice one Nicola 🙂

    175. Fred says:

      Googled “Carlaw Cars Missing Artworks!” as prompted by the Twitterfeed. Dearyfuckinme, auld pizza-face needs to come clean on this!

    176. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers: “So the adjacent local areas pay for policing of the oil & gas installations both on and off shore right out to the 200 mile limit. There is no input from the United Kingdom Treasury.

      I just noticed this. It’s totally wrong. It’s the 12 nautical mile territorial waters are partially devolved to the Scottish Gvoernment, in terms of fishing and environment. It’s why, for instance, the SG has 3 FPV – fishery protection vessels, including the FPV Minna which you can often see off Arran if you use They patrol those 12 nm NOT the 200 nm of the EEZ.

      By the same token you will see the likes of HMS Clyde (probably to become the Forth) off the rigs outside the territorial waters into the international waters inside that 200 nm EEZ – which is the responsisbility of the UK Government. HMS Clyde is an RN ship, paid for by the UK Treasury – with Scotland being allocated a 1/12th share. I’ve farily often seen an OPV off the rigs using marinetraffic.

    177. I’m nipping in and out of the garden cutting hedges, weeding, killing, as my Irish wife would say, dead things.
      On the subject of my Irish wife, I gather that there is a Tory councillor who thinks that she has no rights in Scotland, because she is a Furriner.
      One of Ruth Davidson’s rat pack of bigots, Scotland Haters and Fellow Travellers out to destroy our civic society.
      They’d privatise our farts.
      I see GERS has raised its Court jester head again.
      They are nothing but fiction based on OBR and ONS figures and Guesstimates from the English HMRC, ONS, and DWP.
      Sainsbury’s Asda, M&S. Tesco’s do not provide ant stats at all in relation to their income, tax revenue, or source of produce to the GERS calculation.
      As I have pointed out before, when a Scottish Farmer supplies milk to a Scottish Branch of Teswco,say, to sell in Scotland to Scottish consumers, this is calculated as part of the ‘4 times as much’ expoprts from Scotland to England, although the milk never leaves our shores.
      We are about to be overwhelmed by the media and the Clunking Fist lying, threatening and bullying as never before.
      The Yes Movement, and remarkable online Thunderer’s like Stu’s WoS and Peat Worrier, and WGD, Phantom, The National, Lesley Riddoch, Bateman, among many others will be essential in repelling a quite aggressive evil enemy of Scotland; the Fifth Column within, as much, if not more so, than the ‘insurgents’ who will head North to frighten our pensioners, our poorly paid, and our disabled and unwell citizens, will betray their fellow countrymen and woman until the last. They are simply evil. It’s not ‘politics’, it’s malicious naked aggression.
      We are taking back our country. Good luck England and your province Wales.. You’ll need it.
      I do not exaggerate. It is about to get very nasty indeed.
      Now for the front hedges.

    178. Jack Murphy says:

      OT. BREXIT, for England’s eyes only.

      Daily Express England.

      ” Cross ‘red lines and we’ll bring govt down say Brexiteer Tories “

    179. Shinty says:

      O/T Worth 20mins of your time

      Patricia Gibson MP -Implications for Scotland for leaving the EU

      (warning contains interventions from Stephen Kerr and a couple of his ‘thowless thirteen’ colleagues)

      Well done Patricia, “the people of Scotland are sovereign”

    180. Thepnr says:


      Yes, thanks for that, was a very good watch. Scotland’s people v the Tories right enough. Can only be one winner there.

    181. Gary says:

      People would refuse to buy these newspapers if they knew just how much they were being lied to.

      However, BECAUSE they buy these newspapers they don’t KNOW how much they’re being lied to.

      A small minority who own the means to promulgate their opinion can control the opinion of the majority by lying to them…

    182. North chiel says:

      Stirring stuff from Patricia Gibson indeed . Any chance of this type of “ news clip” to be shown
      to be shown on “ the Jackie Bird show “ Donalda ? Thought not.

    183. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Ach North chiel.

      I’ve mentioned this before…

      Could you Please stop scattergunning your comments with inverted commas? The way I was taught comprehension was to take a breath when I came across inverted commas. Thus I find myself pausing in your comments, where no pause is required.

      Most times, your comments don’t need them. Your comments would be easier to read, if they were depending only on the “natural” pauses provided by “commas” and “periods” – not to mention “colons” and “semi-colons”.

    184. Patricia Gibson rocks.
      See link via Shinty @1.32 pm.

    185. North chiel says:

      Brian@ 2006 “no comment”

    186. yesindyref2 says:

      Is “this better?

      That’ll probably confuse the whole ‘tinterweb! Meltdown in 4, 3, 2,

    Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. If your comment does not appear immediately, DO NOT REPOST IT. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.

    ↑ Top