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Satan’s Little Helper

Posted on December 22, 2018 by

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    1. 22 12 18 09:56

      Satan’s Little Helper | speymouth

    306 to “Satan’s Little Helper”

    1. Breeks says:

      Aye, the Devil’s not in the detail when it comes to Brexit. Another belter Chris.

      Jingle Bells, May’s Deal smells,
      Corbyn runs away.
      Europe laughs at UK gaffs,
      And Scotland cites Constitutional Sovereignty to unilaterally revoke Article 50 and stay in the EU,
      Laughing all the way…

      How’s that for a poetic ending?

    2. uno mas says:

      The strap line is almost better than the cartoon.

    3. Morgatron says:

      Belter Chris, Im sure Corbyn shouting, “look! no strings” , he is an embarrassment of a politician. Never have i witnessd such a dearth of political standards, thank god for the SNP. Merry Christmas, Stu, Chris & my fellow indy travellers out there in Wingsland.

    4. Truth says:

      Ok, the devil is a caricature of Norman Tebbit and I claim my £5.

    5. Davy says:

      There’s a Christmas message we won’t forget.

      its a “cracker” Chris.

    6. Sharny Dubs says:

      Right on the button as usual Chris.
      Seasons greetings to Stu, Chris, all the Wings team and all wingers everywhere.
      Get a rest and let’s gear up for 19’ I think it’s going to be a belter!

    7. wull2 says:

      He just pops back to say. He will be back in the New Year to collect the other part of the contract, and to wish an Independent Scotland a Happy New Year when it comes.

    8. BuggerLePanda says:

      Happy CRIMBLES everyone.

    9. Undeadshaun says:

      Corbyn admits he wants brexit..

      “Corbyn: Brexit would go ahead even if Labour won snap election”

    10. galamcennalath says:

      Brilliant. And spot on assessment of the situation as always.

      Corbyn is playing a walk on role in the this incredibly dangerous ‘game’.

      The Tories and their media are pushing ‘no deal’. Either they want actually it, or perhaps it’s a tactic to scare MPs to vote for May’s ‘deal’. People’s lives, livelihoods, and futures a on the line. Corbyn and Labour are completely failing to act in any interests other than party ones.

      The old saying .. hate Tories for what they are, but hate Labour for what they are not! Ordinary folks put trust in Labour to look after their interests but for decades this has been misplaced. Tories don’t hide what they are while Labour pretend to be something they are not.

    11. mogabee says:

      Dramatic toon and spot on Chris!

      Happy Solstice all you demon lovers and Merry Christmas to everyone else. 😀 😀 😀 😀

    12. Gary45% says:

      “The puppet master and the confused pensioner.”
      Nice one Chris.
      Labour just like the Tories, bereft of any ideas.

    13. Ken500 says:

      The devil’s in the detail. The bonfire of the vanities.

    14. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Remember the First Minister’s throw-away line about calling the media to Bute House on Christmas Eve, to announce Indyref2.

      Why not? Satan’s Little Helper, in a Guardina interview today, stresses, even if a Labour Government could re-negotiate a better Brexit deal than the Maybot has managed, we would still be leaving.

      The EU has already said: “take it or leave it on this deal,” so, it is that deal or No Deal.

      I have supported the FM’s plan of giving Westminster enough rope to produce a satisfactory deal, it is now clear, whether it is a Blue or a Red Tory who is talking with the EU, the UK is leaving.

      The Sovereign will of the Scottish people – that we remain inside the EU – is being ignored.

      Monday would be a very good day on which to pull the rug from under them and call Indyref2.

      Please Nicola – go for it.

    15. Ken500 says:

      Labour changed the electoral system in Scotland without a mandate. To let 3rd rate losers in. So unionists could wreck the Parliament. Voting down powers.

      Labour now playing with teachers remuneration. Not agreeing a revised offer. Even though there is funds made available.

    16. Ghillie says:

      It is horrible to see anyone with the devil on their back, no matter who they are.

      But the leader of the Labour party has it in his in power to make a worthwhile difference to the lives of every soul living in the UK.

      And what Jeremy needs to remember is that the devil has no power. Only the power we give him.

      Do the right thing Mr Corbyn, stop acting the fool and look to the SNP to show you the way out of this diabolical mess.

    17. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Brexit, any Brexit, will bring a new economic downturn, it’s clear. A new tightening of the austerity screw. Which will be jolly for the disaster capitalists but for ordinary folk already finding it hard to make ends meet, not so much.

      “For the many not the few” has never rung so false and hollow from this shrunken has-been messiah.

      (Not to forget his Northern branch stooge. The little helper’s little helper.)

    18. Ken500 says:

      They will not be able to leave the EU, without Armageddon. It is impossible. Whatever way they try to sell it. Just a joke. The ‘deal’ costs more with less rights. They will cause a recession. Beyond stupid. They could have brought in measures to limit migration in England, within the EU. It would not make any difference in any case. The migration into Europe is caused by the illegal wars and Westminster debt and borrowing. It is UK Gov policies which has caused the biggest wealth gap (in the UK) and the biggest debt in the world. Absolute nothing to do with the EU.

      Low wages in the UK are caused by UK Gov policies wasting too much on illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Wages would go up if they were sorted out. There would be more money for essential services. The UK has been mismanaged by Westminster imbeciles since 1928. The North/South divide caused by Westminster centrist policies. Westminster criminality and lies. Kept secret under the Official Secrets Act. Iraq, Dunblane, Lockerbie kept secret for 100 years.

    19. Nana says:

      Labour so willing to do the devil’s work.

      Times interview with ?@johnmcdonnellMP?
      – I can talk to DUP & can see us working together
      – Winning vote of no confidence depends on DUP
      – Gordon Brown has offered to advise us in power

      Links on previous thread

    20. galamcennalath says:

      More than most of Chris’s cartoons, this one is certainly relevant beyond Scottish politics.

      This should be seen far and wide, by as many folks as possible around the UK.

      Twitterated and facebookised, or whatever social media propagation is call!

    21. Robert Peffers says:

      Right on the mark as usual, Chris, every one gets better than those before.

      Here’s another guy who could see through the fog of bullshit and always hit the mark:-

      I’m tending to become rather more cynical in my old age.

    22. ScottishPsyche says:

      Labour and the DUP prepared for a dirty deal to deliver Brexit to people who increasingly don’t want it.

      Every time I don’t think I can despise Labour any more they make it so easy to go to the next level. A party operating in a parallel universe who will do ANYTHING to get into government.

      Keeping Scotland tied to the Union is an obsession for them beyond moral or practical reason. Do they not understand we can see their naked ambition and what they are prepared to do for it?

    23. Hamish100 says:

      Spot on cartoon.

      Corbyn and Labours problem is that he and many key individuals (strangely TU leaders who should be concerned about jobs) are brexiteers.

      They side with Rees-Mogg, Johnston, Davis, Gove and May.

      There is no doubt that Independence is better than any form of Brexit. The benefit of jobs coming to Scotland rather than Ireland or elsewhere is clear. The benefit to our young folk is absolute.

      There is no doubt Scotland must have the right to choose and I am sure our First Minister is aware of this. Timing is all.

    24. galamcennalath says:

      Two threads appear in the media today. Firstly Corbyn would continue with Brexit, which make Labour unelectable in a GE. Secondly, Osborne say May must prevent a Brexit disaster or the Tories will end up in a prolonged period of opposition.

      What is interesting here is that Brexit has the potential to be a poisoned chalice for both Lab and Tories.

    25. The film of the book `Fame is the Spur` is on,

      `The central character, Hamer Shawcross, starts as a studious boy in an aspirational working-class family, he becomes a socialist activist and soon a Brutish Labour Party career politician, who eventually is absorbed by the upper class establishment he had begun by combating.`

      the book was written in the 1930`s,

      the desire/lust for ermine has been in the snout of Brutish Labour politicians since the very beginning,

      and the downtrodden keep getting suckered into voting them in.

    26. jfngw says:

      I spotted that Labour and Tory run councils are trying to block a revised offer to teachers. They want a strike, it’s about politics.

      This is the reason they want more power handed down at local level. It’s not about more democracy, most council elections have a horrendous turnout (in the 30%s). Some are elected with little more than 15% of potential voters choosing them. It’s because they feel they can take power with little support, if they believed in this devolution of how come they never did it when they had total control at Holyrood/Westminster.

      Even better in local elections with he STV, system they can effectively keep out the SNP in many areas, even when they are the largest party.

      As for Corbyn, he’s always been anti-EU from when we joined the EEC. Why would the change now. He is the epitome of the champagne socialist, comfortably off but willing to see the poor suffer to achieve his socialist nirvana. Pure socialism can never work because the self serving will just change their clothes and work the system in a different manner, you just end up with the same elite living in relative luxury.

    27. 2The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world that he didn’t exist.’
      ‘Verbal’ in ‘The Usual Suspects’.
      McDonnell in bed with the DUP and Broon brought back from the Elephants’ Graveyard to ‘advise’ a Marxist Christian Fundamentalist UK Government?
      A script writer could not make this ridiculous nonsense up.
      January will be fun.
      Holiday companies will go out of business in the first four weeks of the new year.
      No freedom of matter whether it is US Blockade style Blue Tories or Soviet Socialist Red Tories in charge of crashing out of the EU.
      Merry wotsit, to all.

    28. Josef Ó Luain says:

      The current political reality is that Corbyn leads a broken Party in a broken polity and that there’s no way back to the status-quo-ante for either Labour or the Tories. A dangerous vacuum has been created in British politics which, if history is any guide, will be filled by the extreme/populist Right.

    29. Dan Huil says:

      Out of britnat chaos shall Scotland’s independence return.

    30. mumsyhugs says:

      Regardless of whether it’s JC’S or TM’s face on his ‘helper’, they’re both the spawn of the devil.

    31. Gary45% says:

      Like many I thought Corbyn was the answer for the Southern electorate, for me his continued stance on highlighting the plight of the Palestinians is heroic, however to be so far behind in the polls against what is clearly the worst government this country has ever witnessed, (I say that with heavy heart, as I thought Thatcher and Bliar had that accolade).
      It is now very clear Labour will do ANYTHING to get the popular vote. (totally clueless on every level)
      In Scotland it is now so clear, if we don’t get Independence we are well and truly FKD.
      This time last year we all wondered what 2018 would bring, did any of us imagine it being this bad?
      Christ knows what 2019 bring.

    32. Marcia says:

      In last year’s UK General Election Labour gained seats in Southern England such as Canterbury because of the student vote thinking Corbyn and Labour would keep them in the EU. How stupid they were. Labour giving different messages about the EU will be their undoing at the next election. Next lot of infighting for 2019- Labour MP’s.

    33. Foonurt says:

      Deil’s awaw, wae thoan excisemin.

    34. Breeks says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:
      22 December, 2018 at 9:58 am
      Brexit, any Brexit, will bring a new economic downturn, it’s clear. A new tightening of the austerity screw. Which will be jolly for the disaster capitalists but for ordinary folk already finding it hard to make ends meet, not so much.

      You’re absolutely right, but just Christmas has become a commercial exercise in capitalism that is increasingly detached from its religious significance, it is equally remiss to see Brexit as just an economic issue. I think it will be robustly much, much worse than that.

      Just as the French were kinda stigmatised by their Revolution and Napoleon, the Germans stigmatised by Hitler, the Russians by their Communism, the Italians by their surrender…. “Britain” and the outright stupidity of Brexit, not least the pure fecklessness of UK politicians, will leave a legacy that will run for decade after decade.

      Every single British person heading into a sales meeting across the globe might now have to live with the damage to his professional gravitas and integrity caused directly by Brexit – the monumental stupidity which the “whole country” backed to the hilt.

      You think American Diplomats have it tough representing the USA that elected Trump?

      John Cleese will have come full circle. Instead of ribbing Manuel not to mention the war in front of his German guests, the Germans will now be giggling and stealing themselves not to mention Brexit in front of the British. Brexit is THAT stupid.

      How did it come to this? Let’s not kid ourselves the Tory Brats in Westminster had the wits or three dimensional special awareness to dream up this Galaxial sized misadventure. Their failing wasn’t in dreaming this Brexit Malarkey up, their cataclysmic failure was in failing to prevent this reckless ideological stupidity which did dream this up from snowballing into an unstoppable populist avalanche that is out of control.

      When an idiot is in charge, conventional wisdom is to remove that idiot and put in somebody smarter than the idiot. Westminster seems he’ll bent on replacing one idiot with an even bigger idiot, and given the Nation a balanced choice of Idiot May, Idiot Johnson, Idiot Rees-Mogg, or Idiot Corbyn. Thankfully we seem to have escaped Idiot Davidson, but let’s not be too hasty to think Westminster has given up on that delusional idiocy.

      It was a quite an eye opener to see Anna Sourby getting aggressively heckled in the street. But you know what bizarre tangent jumped into my head? No lie, I promise you, I thought of those Scottish “Noblemen” who sold Scotland down the river in 1707 and were afraid for their safety walking down the street. Don’t misread what I’m saying, I’m not saying that’s acceptable conduct, but our “chums” down in England are bloody angry.

      We need to get with Europe. Yes, actually with Europe, but in this context I mean we catch up with Europe and start dealing with Brexit as a damage limitation exercise. For better or worse, (better???), Brexit is coming, and Scotland needs to make damned sure it is standing on the right side of the tourniquet when the severance occurs.

    35. Arlene’s ‘red lines’ may include, and the list is not exhaustive, that the Corbyn Commies ban same sex marriage, abortions, ban Darwinism being taught in schools, outlaw Catholicism and Jewry, insist on a permanent militarily enforced border from Newry to the Atlantic coast, the inalienable right for Norn Irn Loyalists to march anywhere they like, …och, no, I’m being really stupid now.
      We now know. In Scotland, if you vote Red Tory, you are voting to leave Europe, and support politicians who preach that the earth was created 4000 years ago, and that the sun orbits the Earth which is of course at the centre of the Universe.
      Is McDonnell really this thick?

    36. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Breeks @ 11:46:

      standing on the right side of the tourniquet

      Nifty phrase of the day, I reckon! Heh, heh.

    37. Tam says:

      The Gatwick story had ran out of steam so the BBC turn to old faithful “Russia Bad”.

      We hear that the English Navy have sent the mighty Survey vessel,,HMS Echo into the Black Sea to give support to Ukraine in their time of need. HMS Echo usually survey’s the sea bed , but here she is their to deter the Russians from taking any further action against the Ukrainian Navy.

      Armed with her two pea shooter guns, the Russians will be shaking in their boots at the sight of England’s HMS Echo ,

      Or maybe not, lol.

    38. Ghillie says:

      Breeks @ 11.46 am

      I think you have hit a whopping big nail on the head that brexshit will for evermore be a British stigma.

      There is plenty that has gone before in the history of the British empire that should make their toes curl with shame… but Brexit is the one that will stick.

      In the words of a wise woman, What a clusterbourach!

    39. Dr Jim says:

      Thur aw headin fur the Bad Fire as aw oor Grannies used tae say

    40. orri says:

      Just remember it wasn’t the SNP that brought down Labour in 1979 it was the unions.

      Nothing like bins uncollected, bodies not buried and weans not taught to get the backs of the electorate up.

      And the Tories are egging them on as long as it attacks the SNP. No doubt ready to swoop in to save the day no doubt led by Mighty Mouth.

    41. Tom Kane says:

      Chris, Stu
      Merry Christmas to you!!

      Re Corbyn… I know he’s a Britney through and through… There is some weird mind jiggery pokery going on with him… I think he really does think things would be better for Britain in a socialist satellite state on the edge of Europe. I do think he feels for Palestinians… And I do think he feels for the very, very poor and destitute. And England’s young really do need him. And they trust him. And want to love him.

      One of my highlights of the year was the Glastonbury crowd doing a change of lyrics to White Stripes and singing “o Jeremy Corbyn”

      But I don’t think he realises that he is a Tory enabler… And I mean red and blue Tory enabler. The man eat him for breakfast.

      And a UK out of Europe with the Tories in power and a bunch of Henry 8th powers to recreate a British constitution in their image. That doesn’t bear thinking about. Not if they win the next general election. Not even if Labour win the next one and then the Tories get in the time after that.

      England deserves better than that. Scotland needs better than that. We really do need to go from this monstrous mother of all parliaments and set up something that responds to the will of the people. Just watched Springsteen on Broadway… Hope we are coming to the end of our own dark chapter and that Scotland’s history, which is so amazing, evolves in a brighter way in the years ahead.

      Merry X one and all…

    42. geeo says:

      Kevin McKenna: Why is Scottish Labour determined to let down Scotland?

      Liked this bit…

      Foolishly, Richard Leonard, Labour’s latest leader in Scotland, continues to oppose independence while exhibiting no shred of original thinking on policy that might make his party attractive once more to the tens of thousands of its former supporters who have abandoned it”.

      Kevin having one of his pro indy days, guy must have splinters from all that fence sitting.

    43. Tom Kane says:

      Sorry for the long post… Chris, your work goes deep.

      Sorry for typos my little helper has a bad habit of retyping words for me… Above, for Britney read Britnat … For man read MSM eating him for breakfast … Or maybe not…

    44. Colin Alexander says:

      If the UK drags Scotland out of the EU with no Single Market membership And no Customs Union membership, Rock would be proved to have been right all along about Nicola Sturgeon flogging a dead horse.

      If Brexit UK isn’t a big enough disaster for Scotland, add to that Rock being proved right, and never letting Wings forget it, by posting it again and again ad infinitum.

      That’s how bad it could be haha.

    45. Clapper57 says:

      I wish people would open their eyes and see that Corbyn is not progressive …..he is endorsing the status quo. His style of politics are not kinder, gentler or honest they are as cut throat, disingenuous and dishonest as all other Unionist parties at WM.

      I do however hope that those Scots who were brainwashed into the notion that Corbyn was somehow different and decent are at last seeing that his blatant weakness and inability to promote a strong position on Brexit is a strong indication that he is actually no different to other Unionist politicians and that his so called decency does not extend to recognising and respecting how Scots voted in EU referendum.

      Corbyn does not have the courage to admit he wants to leave the EU because , like May , he needs to hide behind the ‘will of the people’ to endorse this damaging policy.

      Corbyn , like May, is same old same old.

      Scotland can surely aspire to higher expectations than just accepting the status quo under WM rule with the likes of May , or whoever replaces her, or Corbyn.

      Brexit has exposed the weakness of being a part of a (non) Union that has allowed democracy to be hijacked by one part of the (non) Union to the detriment of the other.

      Corbyn , like May, endorses this as will all other Unionist leaders that will follow him and her within WM.

      I choose not to endorse this as my future….I want better.

      Hope everyone who reads and posts on here will have a happy Xmas with family and friends and will raise a glass to toast those who are no longer here.

    46. call me dave says:

      Deil or No Deil!

      Jeremy passes by on the other side abrogating his responsibilities no good Samaritan him! 🙁

      Maybe some day Scots will finally decide there is only one way to go from here on in.

      “Maybe someday” says Harmonica as he leaves 🙁

      Worth a watch over Christmas:

    47. sassenach says:

      For gawds sake gie us peace, man.

      You and your sidekick, Rock, should maybe start your Xmas ‘leave’ early. You ain’t fooling anyone here.

    48. Colin Alexander says:

      Then to add to Rock’s gloating:

      There would be moaning and moaning from me that the Scot Govt / SNP MSP manifesto promised indyref if there was a significant event such as Scotland BEING dragged, (NOT IF IT HAS BEEN DRAGGED), out of the EU, against her will.

      I would point out the ripping up of the convention on what is devolved or reserved would also be a significant event that triggers the indyref commitment.

      That these issues obligated the SNP to hold an indyref.

      That failure to do so would be a broken promise of the SNP’s core policy to give the people of Scotland the opportunity to assert Scotland’s sovereignty by voting on independence, (instead of the SNP acting as the UK’s colonial Scottish Govt).

    49. Undeadshaun says:

      2 cheeks oh the same arse!

    50. Malky says:

      When Evil meets Eeejit.

    51. K1 says:

      As ever England will continue to vote for the devil it knows…anyone who votes for Labour in Scotland in the belief that some ‘socialist paradise’ is on offer from down south, really hasn’t been paying attention.

      We told you all back in 2017…they are the Tories little helpers, and Tory and Devil are interchangeable terms.

    52. schrodingers cat says:

      social media awash with labour voters spitting out the dummy at corbyn.

      4h4 hours ago
      Apparently there’s all sorts of private polling showing them tanking in the midlands and the North East. Their days of being simultaneously anti and pro Brexit is coming to an end.


      The @UKLabour was supposed to be driven by its members – when it suits the leadership of course. The members and CLPs want a @peoplesvote_uk as passes at conference. This is utterly contemptuous of the party and a betrayal of the country.

      franky is in rare form today

      joanna cherry rips rees mogg a new one on bbcaq, huge cheers.
      cant do link thingy

    53. K1 says:

      As ever England will continue to vote for the devil it knows…anyone who votes for Labour in Scotland in the belief that some ‘socialist paradise’ is on offer from down south, really hasn’t been paying attention.

      We told you all back in 2017…they are the Tories little helpers, and Tory and Devil are interchangeable terms…

    54. K1 says:

      Ah…double post…apols.

    55. Cubby says:

      Rockshit = Colinshit = Britshit.

    56. Jock McDonnell says:

      Have no doubt or fear, Eck knows exactly what he is doing. And so does the FM.

    57. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      K1 @ 13:39,

      Some people’s accidental double posting is greatly preferable to other people’s single one when the latter is just another boring rehash of the same old weary theme. Not mentioning any names, but you all know to whom (plural) I refer…

    58. schrodingers cat says:

      “Climate catastrophe is imminent. Climate change could decimate pollinating species, leading to a world starved of fruit and vegetables. The best way to alert the world to that danger is to hold the next climate conference in Coatbridge, a town so short of fibre many residents can only shit successfully with the aid of a corkscrew.”


    59. Clapper57 says:

      @ Robert J Sutherland @ 1.56pm

      Go on Robert…mention the name/s….save us all from paranoia Lol

    60. Capella says:

      Crikey! A scary picture of Her Majesty’s official “opposition”.

      At least Jeremy won’t be filmed shopping in Hermes as Theresa May was yesterday. A handbag in there can cost hundreds of thousands of pounds.
      But there are other temptations to sell your soul.
      Prime Minister of Great Britain! Or not very great after BREXIT.

    61. yesindyref2 says:

      The irony is that if Corbyn stood up with some courage, said “We’ll get a better deal or there’ll be no Brexit, THAT will be the choice”, and then had done the VONC, Labour would probably win a snap General Election.

      As it is the guy is as weak as an over-stretched elastic gaiter. Boiing!

    62. Colin Alexander says:

      If Mr Corbyn and Labour are a waste of space, how does that reflect on SNP policy?

      1. Wanting to do a deal with Corbyn over Brexit


      2. The last two SNP GE Manifestos promising a progressive alliance with Labour at Westminster: first with Ed Miliband and then with Mr Corbyn and the Strong Voice For Scotland at Westminster which has just been proven to be a total falsehood, following the Continuity Bill ruling by the Supreme Court which ruled UK Parliament as all powerful and the Scot Parl as the colonial branch office, which means unelected gravy train troughers in the Lords were able to bin legislation made by our democratically elected MSPs at Holyrood.

      So much for the SNP’s sooky sooky visit to that affront to democracy, the House of Lords, and meetings with Mr Corbyn.

      To the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon: Please, please, please: Ditch the failed policies of UK appeasement.

      Lead the fight for Scotland’s freedom and never give up.

      Make the main policy of the SNP: Independence For Scotland.

    63. Proud Cybernat says:

      Alexander – you’re wasting your time. Your daily efforts to try and divide the YES movement will get you nowhere. Give it up. There’s no point. That is all.

      Oh and Merry Christmas to you and all the guys n gals in the Brigade. Better luck next year.

    64. Craig P says:

      Nice cartoon Chris.

      Though in my imagination, satan looks a bit more like Jacob Rees Mogg.

    65. ronnie anderson says:

      Great Toon Chris but hiv U run oota Blue fur the deep blue sea .

    66. Bobp says:

      Satan looking like john bull.

    67. Bobp says:

      Schrodingers cat ‘Shit successfully with the aid of a corkscrew”. Thanks for that, i’ve just spilled half a glass of wine on our carpet laughing.

    68. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Clapper57 @ 2:03,

      On mature reflection, har, har, I realise that judgement might be somewhat in the eyes of the beholder. Cap fits and all that…

      Still, I rather had in mind the poster who is assiduously busy on the thread currently, and his faux-revolutionary pal with the personal raincloud who comes on shift later.

    69. Foonurt says:

      Yurr leaky Colin, wahnts ah puull-through wae ah Noble Fir.

    70. Maid_in_Scotland says:

      Let’s not forget the ‘nice wee sweetener’ we Scots were offered by JMcD when he ventured north recently, the £70 billion subsidy/grant/gift/loan/bribe, whatever you care to call it, which is how Labour operates and always has. Even at Council level, Labour will promise all sorts of goodies which it might deliver but which will turn out to be expensive but actually cheap, tacky and often temporary, but sufficient to vote-catch, or will not deliver and hope no die-hard Labourite will notice. I’ve been around a very long time and have seen it all.

      Yesterday when I made one of my rare forays into a News Channel, I heard some man who looked about 40 blethering that we used to be ‘Great’ Britain before we ‘went into Europe’! Seriously? I doubt he was even born in 1973 when we joined the then Common Market, but I can assure him there was nothing ‘great’ about Britain in the 1960’s/70’s. Bedevilled by endless industrial action, some justified, some definitely not, a country still looking war-torn and worn out, uncompetitive and clinging to old fashioned Victorian work practices, encouraged by the unions. The Western Europeans, the Japanese and the Americans on the other hand were constantly modernising and forging ahead competitively, and, yes, as a result their workers were actually prospering. I recall some Dutch friends of my parents being horrified at the very low level of UK state pension when my father retired away back in 1975.

    71. Robert Peffers says:

      @Scot Finlayson says: 22 December, 2018 at 11:14 am

      ” … the desire/lust for ermine has been in the snout of Brutish Labour politicians since the very beginning,
      and the downtrodden keep getting suckered into voting them in.”

      So true, Scot. Never forget that the father of the Labour Party, Kier Hardie began as a trade union leader, got into politics with the Scottish home rule Crofter’s Party then was sponsored to stand for a Westminster seat by the TU and Liberals.

      Came a poor 5th in the election in Scotland and subsequently got elected, (if memory serves), first to an English constituency then to a constituency in Wales and we are still waiting for Labour to make actual Scottish Home Rule happen.

    72. geeo says:

      Coco having a meltdown again i see…oh dear, never mind, it will be pro indy coco again when the cystal meth wears off, and he thinks nobody noticed his SNP BAD rant.

      What a wally !

    73. Clapper57 says:

      Robert J Sutherland @ 3.07pm

      Cheers point taken ….trust me I am aware that the “cap fits” and I don’t need you to tell me how shit my one trick posts on here are.

      I am way beyond the point of caring as everything is just so so shit. What is the bloody point .

    74. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Clapper57 @ 15:51,

      Sorry, just to avoid any misunderstanding, I didn’t have you in mind at all. I have always found your posts worthy of attention, hence my previous response. So please keep on going, and be of good cheer…

      =wide smile=

    75. Gary45% says:

      Brexit,= Scots meaning “Clusterbourach”
      Nice one.

    76. Ken500 says:

      Brexit will only bring on a recession. To make any difference Westminster Unionists would have to change their policies. Leaving the EU will just make things worse.

      Labour trying to go in with the DUP. Reactionary non representative bastards. They try to ignore the SNP – progressive and representative. Labour are total hypocrites.

    77. schrodingers cat says:


      good innit, it is from franky boyles article in the guardian, i posted a link further up,

      if you havent read it, do so, funniest thing ive seen in ages

    78. schrodingers cat says:

      jaykay royling in melt down on twitter, she just told the labour party and corbyn to do one.

      she, and many like her are running out of options in scotland,

      I am already seeing labour party members jumping ship to the snp because of jeremys article today.

    79. yesindyref2 says:

      @Proud Cybernat
      I hope they’re not 77th, I’d think they’d be way more competent. If they’re 77th the UK is in even more trouble that it is now. More Mundell’s little helpers I think, reflecting his level of incompetence, uselessness and absurdity. Wank amatuers, basically.

    80. yesindyref2 says:

      RJS didn’t mean you as he says. I’ve always thought you as sound as a bell.

    81. yesindyref2 says:

      What article from Corbyn? Where?

    82. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      @ Robert Sutherland

      You’d rather see a double post from a boss-eyed hyperventilating rhesus macaque than single posts from certain others?

      Are you drunk?

    83. Arthur Thomson says:

      This cartoon sums up Corbyn exactly.

      It pains me to see that there are still people on here who have good words to say for him.

      He is the leader of a poisonous cabal of 70’s style chancers who think that this is their chance to turn the clock back.

      To them the Scots are an irrelevance except in so far as they can be relied upon to be useful idiots.

    84. schrodingers cat says:

      Corbyn: Brexit would go ahead even if Labour won snap election

      this is why ian smart and jk rowling are up in arms

    85. Dr Jim says:

      I don’t get these folk at all who say they want Independence but they hate the SNP who are the only people capable of making that happen

      We’ve got Colin the moaner every night doing it, Craig Murray’s linking the SNP with bad stuff in his writings, I just don’t get how these folk think Independence is going to happen if they keep dissing the SNP

      Oh! I’ve worked it out now silly me

    86. Proud Cybernat says:

      “I hope they’re not 77th, I’d think they’d be way more competent.”

      Ah but you see, I didn’t actually mention the 77th. I said the “Brigade” as in “Boys Brigade”. Apparently they have women too these days. 🙂

    87. handclapping says:

      I do hate it when he does these mirror portraits. All the greats do it, Rembrandt, Reubens et al but Cairns is better looking than this. Not much but enough! 😀

      Oh and Merry Christmas to him too.

    88. Craig Murray says:

      Dr Jim at 4.42

      “the SNP who are the only people capable of making that happen – but concentrating on keeping the entire UK together and in the EU, while making every possible excuse to put off Indyref2.” Fixed that for you.

      If Nicola succeeds in getting the “People’s Vote” on the EU, and then succeeds in helping persuade the UK to stay in the EU, please explain to me precisely how that has moved us closer to Independence

    89. Clapper57 says:

      @ Robert J Sutherland

      Sorry….I read it wrong.

      Everything that is happening in the world just now tends to make you feel more depressed and powerless which makes you even more sensitive and paranoiac to a comment that should have been seen as a joke but was mistakenly taken as a personal slight.

      Totally my mistake….would not normally behave in such a bad tempered manner especially to someone like you….. but you caught me at a bad time.

      No offence meant to you .

      Have a good evening.

    90. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      As Nicola lasciviously wrapped her arm around my hunchback in a way no one had ever done before, I knew from this day forward I would jump to her defence like a jack russell on amphetamine – embarrassing but reliable. I was in love and nobody could ruin it for me.

    91. Dr Jim says:

      @Craig Murray

      Instead of me explaining to you why don’t you explain how you propose moving Independence forward with whatever your plan is without the SNP or am I missing some other political party with that agenda in Scotland

    92. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Reluctant Nationalist @ 16:39,

      As it happens, that particular contributor was supportive of me when I was new on here and being attacked by a would-be bullying troll (happily now long gone). It was a kindness that I haven’t forgotten.

      As I’ve got older and just a little wiser, I’ve begun to better appreciate the difference between the book and the cover. I happily recommend that understanding to you also.

    93. Hamish100 says:



      No peoples vote, no uk remaining in EU– First Minister knows that is the likely outcome– whats left? Independence for Scotland

    94. Craig Murray says:

      The SNP is a brilliant political party with an incredibly broad and talented membership. All it lacks is a leader again who actually believes in Independence, rather than being the darling of the UK Establishment with a very cosy berth within the devolution settlement.

    95. Dr Jim says:

      @Craig Murray 5.01pm

      Do you not think that SNP members and many others might find statements like that pretty offensive while opponents of the SNP would find the same statements comforting

      If it is the case that our broad and talented membership were that talented would they not as you seem to suggest pick another leader or are they as you suggest so talented they know they already have the one they want and it is you who have the problem with Nicola Sturgeon and not the broad and talented membership of the SNP

      So my point stands, who else does the job if not the SNP

    96. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Clapper57 @ 16:52,

      Not to worry. It can be hard sometimes to get over nuance in cold print.

      Yes, these are troubling times indeed, and we are all in need of encouragement. One consolation FWIW is that the increasing direness of the situation seems to be increasingly unlocking people from previous rigid positions and opening them to the advantages of independence that we already recognise. Dammit, maybe even
      Jakey! =laugh=

      I feel we are getting close to the tipping point now, and believe if we have the courage to act while everything is still to play for, we’ll garner more than enough support to win through.

      So relax, enjoy this brief respite over the Christmas break, and be refreshed and ready for the New Year. It’s surely gonna be a wild ride!

    97. Bobp says:

      Schrodingers cat 4.19pm. Just finished reading frankie boyles bit in the guardian. Loved it, and his comment about it being nice for the Irish to watch a british famine.

    98. yesindyref2 says:

      @Proud Cybernat
      Ah, BB! All the same I think they’re way more competent as well 🙂

    99. wull2 says:

      I treat everybody as a sleeper, a plant or just a idiot (our media), only time will tell who they are, I can only say it is not me.
      Vote YES

    100. One_Scot says:

      Lol, anyone who thinks that Nicola does not have Independence running through her veins or does not know exactly what she is doing, has not been paying attention.

    101. yesindyref2 says:

      @Craig Murray “All it lacks is a leader again who actually believes in Independence

      Craig, I think you do your own thing, and that’s good.

      But you must be stark staring bonkers if you don’t think bot the SNP and Scotland have got absolutely the best possible leader going, bar none.

      And as for her “actually believes in Independent”, good grief. You need to stop reading articles, blogs, postings by Unionists. You’re starting to talk like they do 🙁

    102. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I generally agree with Craig Murray; he is not often wrong.

      But, if he is suggesting there is some reason, other than exhausting all avenues of co-operation in attempting to secure a less-damaging Brexit, for the SNP’s delay in calling Indyref2. I will disagree with him.

      When the FM calls it, she will immediately be inundated with all kinds of personal abuse from the Unionists and their media shrills. I dare say, the good Colonel will, if necesssary, be brought back early from maternity leave, to parrot her call of: “All they care about is Independence,” and to insist the Unionists will boycott the referendum.

      However, the FM will easily counter this with the evidence of how she tried absolutely everything to soften the Brexit blow, but, every time she tried to do this, she was either ignored of rebuffed. By doing this, she has, reagardless of media spin and lies, taken that argument out of the equation.

      The Unionists will this time, from a much weaker base, need to demonstrate that we are Better Together – or, as I call this approach: Mission Impossible.

    103. Graeme says:

      There’s a picture on Jamie MacCaesar!s twitter of Jim Murphy & Ross thomson all pally & chummy 2 cheeks of the same arse,

      now I know not all idiots look like idiots but my god Ross Thomson is the full package that face has idiot written all over it

    104. Proud Cybernat says:

      Sorry Craig Murray. I think the FM knows exactly what she needs before firing IR2 start gun. It’s not (quite) in place yet so she keeps her cards (rightly) close to her chest. But I really don’t think it will be too long to go by the simple virtue that Theresa May is herself running out of time for anything else other than a really sore arse Brexit to happen.

      Meanwhile, like the evil, vile ScotNats that we are, we present on SocMed all manner of scenarios that would be said trigger and how the FM might proceed to recover our Statehood. Keeps the BritNat buggers guessing.

    105. Proud Cybernat says:

      **Meanwhile, like the evil, vile ScotNats that we are, we present on SocMed all manner of scenarios that could trigger IR2 and how the FM might proceed to recover our Statehood. Keeps the BritNat buggers guessing.**

    106. Colin Alexander says:

      @ Dr Jim

      We’ll never get independence if the SNP or others never stand for independence.

    107. Dr Jim says:

      @Colin Alexander 5.52pm

      Who are these others of whom you speak?

    108. yesindyref2 says:

      It’s always possible Craig Murray’s playing Devil’s Advocate, in which case he just caught out one of satan’s little helpers.

    109. Colin Alexander says:

      @ Craig Murray

      You have my utmost respect for speaking out and telling the truth.

      Would you consider leading a YES political party with one policy only:

      Independence for Scotland, if the SNP won’t.

      I would vote for you. I’m sure others would too. Leave the SNP to run the colonial Scottish Govt on behalf of the UK Govt,if they won’t try again for independence.

    110. Colin Alexander says:

      @ Dr Jim

      The mandate is for the Scottish Parliament to hold an indyref, not the FM.

      A Green MSP could raise an SP motion for indyref2 instead of just moaning about the SNP not having done so.

    111. Arthur Thomson says:

      Nicola Sturgeon has played a binder in representing Scotland and the independence movement.

      She and her team exude the level of intelligence, maturity, dignity and responsibility that properly reflects our Scottish nation of genuinely civilised people.

      I have no doubt that she and her team are politically astute and have their eye clearly focused on the task of re-establishing Scotland’s independence.

      Like everyone else, it upsets me to see the the level to which the Brits are prepared to stoop to maintain their control. However, emulating their despicable lack of regard for others is not a path for civilised people to follow. We will win and simultaneously maintain our Scottish values.

    112. North chiel says:

      “ on the money” Proud cybernat @ 0548 pm . In our wonderful FM we place our trust. Head & shoulders above any other “ so called” politician in the “ so called” U.K. Patience is a virtue and I am so impressed with her “ endless patience” as she rightly waits until everything is in place and Brexit is certain. ( the mandate for the sovereign people of Scotland’s decision will be enacted, as promised, by whatever method(s) is required) . The Scottish people and our legal representatives will decide . Our FM most certainly will never let her country down .

    113. Republicofscotland says:

      Craig Murray 5.02pm

      Agreed Craig, Sturgeon should forget trying to shore up a people’s vote and concentrate on independence.

    114. One_Scot says:

      Lol, some people on here don’t half talk some shit. You know who you are. What, you think we can’t see you.

    115. yesindyref2 says:

      The usual suspects.

    116. yesindyref2 says:

      Ehh I didn’t mean you Dr Jim!

    117. Capella says:

      Nicola Sturgeon is a brilliant leader of the SNP and has been remarkably sure footed throughout the chaos that has engulfed the UK.

      In spite of the constant hostility of the MSM, people do trust her and her colleagues to deliver independence as soon as is practical. This is a tremendous achievement after 11 years in office and the 2014 referendum.

      SNP policy is influenced mostly by the members. No doubt the leadership emphasise some policies over others for reasons which may not always be apparent to the rest of us. But unless you are prepared to make it your life’s work, you have to allow the professional politicians to provide the leadership.

      We have to trust somebody. The SNP would be mad to choose another leader now.

    118. Ghillie says:

      Gary45% @ 4.09 pm

      Bexit,= Scots meaning ‘Clusterbourach’ 🙂

      I think it was either Dr Philippa Whitford MP or Joanna Cherry QC MP who gave us our lovely new word =)

    119. Lenny Hartley says:

      Craig Murray, did Torrance tell you to write that about the FM? Lets think somebody who has supported and worked their socks off for Indy since they were a teenager of somebody who was at the heart of the British Establishment shortly after leaving University and them when sacked came out for Independence!
      I know who I trust the most, and as someone who has read some of your books and had some admiration for you It pains me to say that you are so far off the mark that I now suspect you have an ulterior motive.

    120. Hamish100 says:


      Once knew a socialist republican /similar. Over time he recognised he couldn’t get voted in as a councillor. He got a suit tidied up his beard said the right labour type things and joined the labour party. Within a few years his troops out of ulster utterances became more Blairite and he got elected as a councillor in a big city in the West of Scotland.

      As for Scotland he couldnae care one jot.

    121. yesindyref2 says:

      I think perhaps he’s just too immersed in conspiracy theories.

    122. Cubby says:

      In over 300 years of this despicable union only one party has brought us very close to independence – yes the SNP. No other party or person has come even close. Lay off the SNP. GET A GRIP.

      I say that and I am not a member. It’s just common sense.

      Britnats like Colinshit are just trying the old British empire trick of divide and conquer. I have nothing but contempt for these Britnats who post on Wings. They are scum.

      Merry Xmas to all ( but not the scum).

    123. frogesque says:

      Risking hammers but:


      Rudyard Kipling.—

      Some folk need to step back, take chill pill and look at the moon instead of howling at it

    124. schrodingers cat says:

      @Craig Murray

      nicola is proposing the most popular solution to brexit with the people of scotland, she is safe to do so since sm/cu membership will never be agreed by treeza or corbyn. neither will they agree to stop brexit or a PV

      it may hack of many of the 45% who are itching for indyref2, but her stance appeals to many of the 55% and it is winning us converts, a trickle at the moment but i believe we are reaching tipping point and we will see many cross the floor

      the reason we need to do this is because we are still sitting at 45-47%

      if we we had 60-70% support for yes during the last 2 years we would have been having very different conversations on wos

      as we move forward, with whatever tactic nicola decides to pursue, if she has a clear majority for yes in the polls of 60/70%, it will make her job a lot easier.

      her support for the PV and sm/cu will deliver neither. but it will deliver the 60/70% we need to win indyref2

    125. Ghillie says:

      Capella @ 6.36 pm and Dr Jim, Schrodiner’s cat, Proud Cybernat, Yesindyref2, One_Scot, Arthur Thomson, North chiel, and other Wingers I may have missed,

      Yes =)

      Nicola Sturgeon is the First Minister who will lead Scotland to Independence and soon 🙂

      CM is drawing out the trolls. Like a poultice.

    126. Breeks says:

      Dr Jim says:
      22 December, 2018 at 4:58 pm
      @Craig Murray

      Instead of me explaining to you why don’t you explain how you propose moving Independence forward with whatever your plan is without the SNP or am I missing some other political party with that agenda in Scotland.

      The 6 Parliamentarians who took a case to the ECJ, repulsing an intervention from the UK’s Supreme Court along the way, established that Article 50 could be withdrawn by the sovereign entity which lodged it were a cross party group who pursued a matter of legal principle.

      They Established Article 50 was a sovereign prerogative, which creates a benchmark against which UK Parliamentary Sovereignty can be Tested against Scottish Constitutional Sovereignty and the Claim of Right to establish whether Theresa May’s Article 50 was Ultra Viraes and contrary to Scotland’s Constitutional will, and/or whether Scotland could cite its Constitutional Sovereignty and the 2016 democratic majority to Remain in the EU as justifiable grounds for Scotland to unilaterally revoke Article 50 insofar as it related to Scotland.

      Such action is mandated by Scotland’s Sovereign Remain majority, irrespective of whoever it is might cite that mandate in the European Court.

      It need not be a SNP sponsored venture. Scotland would only need its own Gina Millar type of courageous enabler. However, it begs two mighty important questions about the SNP, firstly why they are (so far) resisting all pressures to stand up for Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty, and why aren’t they sponsoring a whole salvo of legal challenges from the same stable as the Article 50 Test Case designed to ring fence Scotland’s sovereignty as a Scottish Backstop for Brexit, and establish Scotland’s Government as a sovereign interlocutor with Legal Personality which can begin parallel negations and consultations with Europe about Scotland’s options. Why are having to drag the SNP kicking and screaming to do this??? They should be up front leading the damn charge!

      Brexit threw down a Constitutional gauntlet about “UK” Parliamentary Sovereignty, and so far NOBODY, nobody that is except the 6 Scottish parliamentarians, have picked up the gauntlet and made ANY case at all for defending Scotland’s sovereignty. Forget fkn devolved niceties and quarrels over a UK Continuity Bill. Nail our colours to Sovereignty and TELL Westminster they’re not get our powers because they are staying where they belong in Europe. If you’re worried about devolution, guess what, you’ve already rolled over and conceded sovereignty.

      Rather than condemning the frustrations of increasingly exasperated Independence Supporters both outside and inside the SNP, why not at least make the attempt to address these frustrations and acutely relevant concerns with something more substantial than a character reference about how great a politician Nicola Sturgeon is. Don’t tell me. Show me.

      You might very well believe that Nicola has constructed an intricate spiders web of Constitutional trip wires and bear traps which Westminster cannot possibly negotiate, I surely hope you’re right, but there are less than 100 days to extricate Scotland from this diabolical catastrophe of Brexit, and in those 100 days, at the very, very, minimum, we NEED to secure legal personality just so we can bloody talk to Europe and formalise our options.

      Why on Earth we are wasting time on a people’s vote which might conceivably put at risk Scotland’s democratic Remain majority of 2016 is completely beyond me. But hey, go ahead, and devote your surplus energies to this questionable undertaking if you must. But please, for the love of Scotland, you MUST get these Constitutional barbs and test cases heading to the ECJ to disrupt the progress of Brexit before all hope is lost for keeping Scotland in Europe and repulsing the attempted colonial subjugation of Scotland by an Ultra Viraes Westminster regime.

      That’s how I would “move Independence forward” Dr Jim.

      Revoke Article 50 as an act of National self defence that is lawful, it’s mandated, it’s democratic, it’s constitutional, and our country is greatly imperilled if we simply stand by mute and inactive, and allow Brexit to happen.

      There are 97 days. 97 DAYS.

      Shitting yourself? Godammed right I’m shitting myself. There’s a big express train barrelling towards us and we’re having a picnic on the track eating cucumber sandwiches and wondering if there will be a war with Hitler, a second EU referendum.

      You want more details? You want certainty? Get our Constitutional Sovereignty house in order, and we can all say with certainty that Scotland will remain in Europe.

      The time for talking has run out. Don’t sit here second guessing whether Corbyn is complicit with a Hard Brexit happening, because I hate to point out such a pitfall in strategy but the SNP’s enigmatic lack of initiative is hardly safe from some painfully similar accusations itself.

    127. robertknight says:

      The big bloke in Chris’s cartoon will be wearing a ski jacket before there’s another referendum in Scotland!

      WM will never allow it, and even if Holyrood hold one, albeit ‘consultative’ , it’ll be boycotted by Yoon run local authorities and their BritNat supporters.

      And who’s going to stump up the millions for any Yes campaign – the Weirs, again??? Plenty of fat-cats on the ‘other side’ with deep pockets.

      I can’t help but think the Yes movement is being extremely naive to:

      a) Think that IndyRef2 will happen

      b) Think that, even if it did, any result other than No/Remain would be respected

      c) Allow the Yoons to persist in using IndyRef2 as both a stick to beat the Yes movement and a smoke screen to obscure the broader debate about Independence

      Let’s face it…

      IndyRef2 has about as likely as a Brexit Peoples’ Vote!

      Québec made a huge mistake with their IndyRef2 and where now the prospect of an independent Québec?

      Furthermore, if anyone thinks that WM won’t behave like Madrid then history and current events has taught you nothing.

      The Yes movement/SNP must find an alternative path to Independence – IndyRef2 is a corner in which we must avoid being painted in to.

    128. Dr Jim says:

      @Colin Alexander

      The Greens? You do enjoy having a laugh eh

      Y’see every time people like you and these *others* whoever they are run down or speak ill of the FM you do the whole of the SNP and the YES movement a disservice but you know that and just like Craig Murray that’s why you do it

      If as Craig Murray suggests but didn’t choose to answer, the SNP are a broad and talented political party why then do they keep the FM in post and if the SNP are such a broad and talented party they did not choose Craig Murray as a candidate for the SNP

      So on the one hand you and these others say the SNP are just fine and dandy and clever and talented but on the other hand they’re not smart enough to know that the FM isn’t a good enough a leader, I mean really which is it or could it possibly be that you and these *others* have your own problems with a woman leader or possibly you might have not been chosen by her to be a part of the talented and broad SNP making some of these *others* feel inadequate in some way so much so as to hold a wee personal grudge and you can’t stop yourselves scribbling crap about a female politician of 30 years experience who could have any job she chose but chooses FM of Scotland on less money than she could earn anywhere else should she choose to do so

      There are mugs out there who will fall for this drivel either because they just don’t get enough truth to know the difference or just because they want to, and I know you see it as your wee mission in life to serve in the capacity of the *down with Sturgeon* brigade but here on WOS it won’t work and now in the wider debate just like Theresa May and Corbyn your deceptions are being seen through more and more and in the end you and these *others* are being seen as more ridiculous by the day

      There’s no need to answer me because I’ve taken up enough of my time bothering with you and your *others* you have nothing to sell here and no one to sell it to so do yourself and the others on WOS a favour and go away and project your thoughts at folk who care because nobody on here does, you’re not even reaching the level of irritation now and that’s not serving your prime function at all

    129. Iain says:

      Achieving Scottish independence is the goal of over half the population of Scotland.
      We have to trust Nicola.
      So far she has been a dazzling first minister and fully justifies the faith of the Scottish people have in her.
      The independence movement for Scotland will succeed because no matter what the setback we will never give up.
      Brexit is the latest chance for freedom for Scotland but what ever happens we are never ever going to give up.
      I sense that our freedom is close as the britnat empire is crumbling and recession and widespread poverty is going to hit the empire hard.
      Either way brexit or remain England will be torn apart with rioting. We are better than that we must seize our chance and leave this dreadful union.

    130. Dr Jim says:


      Then do it Breeks go for your life why not, it only took the SNP 80 years to get where they are so I’ll look forward with great interest to seeing the queue form up behind anyone who’s going forward with whatever idea this is or are we having another *others* moment

    131. Liz g says:

      Craig Murray
      I thought it was a very good “political “ move for Nicola to get behind a people’s vote.
      Holding one puts all the Unionist parties in a very awkward campaign position.
      Especially Ruth Davison and Corbin.
      It’s a way to potentially deal with them before the Indy vote
      The stand they take and the things they say will not go down well in Scotland no matter how they spin it, they will have no credibility, and may not even survive as leaders.
      They are in a lose lose situation at no cost to the Indy movement or campaign.

      Even a vote to Remain in the EU will do massive damage and destabilise UK politics.
      And to destabilise the opposition as much as you can before fighting your own campaign, is , I think, good tactics!
      I’m surprised that you cannot see that Craig?
      Remember the mandate also says “when Scotland has had enough “ we should have another Indyref!!

      Best outcome would be, the UK still in the EU, but Westminster collapsing and rudderless.
      Our campaign then becomes…. we’ve had enough of Westminster rule and not about Brexit!
      On the other hand…. If Brexit still happens will still be on course for Indy Ref two anyway.
      There is as far as I can see no downside to Nicolas support for a “people’s vote” for us.
      Those who assert that it, “negates the mandate”… don’t , I would say actually understand the mandate….

    132. twathater says:

      OT somewhat @ LEGERWOOD on the previous thread , Thanks for the link to THOUGHT CONTROL SCOTLAND John Robertson , I would ask any winger who is feeling a bit dreich or doubting to take a look at prof Robertson’s blog he explainerises what may be happening with the divide and conquer methodology so beloved of our imperial maisters.

      Please independenistas get this blog spread far and wide to bring us all together again and stop the spooks and establishment from causing any fractures , we have to stand firm and united

    133. twathater says:

      A very HAPPY CHRISTMAS and a prosperous and healthy festive season to all supporters of Scotland’s independence

      Robert T

    134. Dr Jim says:

      Alex Salmond made a mistake which everybody is sorry for including him
      Nicola Sturgeon doesn’t want to make a mistake because there’s only going to be one shot and if we miss it’s the end of Scotland there’ll be no third go, we will be reduced to less than a region forever and Tories and Labour and Lib Dems will make sure of it then you’ll see the Ulsterisation of Scotland and don’t think for one nano second those people are not there, they are, in numbers, and no moderate wants that day to come even though the UK government would love it, life would be a lot easier for them if they had some violence to react to

      No constitutional questions then

      Everybody’s in a hurry, I’m in a hurry but I’m not the FM so I don’t know anything, she does, the time to complain is when a politician doesn’t do what they say not when you think they’re not thinking what you’re thinking

      Especially when you don’t have all the information to think about

      I’m not here to argue with folk because there’s no point, nobody wins an online argument about other peoples points of view because the real people with the real information don’t carry out real politics in the public gaze

      The internet is a moaning forum or a comedic excercise but what it’s most certainly not is a method of resolution it’s a stabbercise of words symbolising nothing but a get it off your chest airing

      Meaningless smoke

    135. doug_bryce says:

      Aye : Nicola backing peoples vote is a good idea.

      Because we all know Ruthie hates brexit, but needs to toe the party line (which is no peoples vote cause it will destroy tory party)

    136. yesindyref2 says:

      Basically speaking, the People’s Vote is splitting the Tories and Labour from arse to tit elbow.

    137. Breeks says:

      Dr Jim says:
      22 December, 2018 at 7:26 pm

      Then do it Breeks go for your life why not, it only took the SNP 80 years to get where they are…

      You posed the question Dr Jim. I simply gave you an answer.

    138. K1 says:

      Don’t worry about RN, Robert J, he just needed to get me back for yesterday’s comment.

      Funnily enough all on the back of him claiming that 2017 ge loss of SNP MP’s was down to ‘immigration’, absolutely full on lying piece of skull numbing pish of course, but he couldn’t come back and admit he was completely wrong on that front and resorted to childish rhetoric, which he thinks is ‘clever’ and ‘witty’…the reality being he’s such a a god awful tit who just resorted to attempting to gain support from you in attacking me ‘personally’…because he’s nothing to say on the back of making a cunt of himself on here.


      Have a lovely xmas Robert.

    139. Rock says:

      Like Nicola, Jeremy will strike at the right moment – in 2640 AD.

      Jeremy will call a Vote of No Confidence and Nicola will call Independence Referendum 2.

      Nicola and Jeremy, waiting to strike when the iron is hot.

      Rock (27th August 2017 – “Underneath the Goodyear blimp”):

      “Scotland was on the verge of independence immediately after the Brexit vote.

      The unionist parties were without leaders and completely lost, the SNP had 56 out of 59 MPs and 50% of the vote, the EU’s eyes were (favourably) on Scotland.

      But Nicola squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

      The result: Nicola outsmarted by the collusion between Saints Theresa and Ruth on one hand, and Corbyn on the other, fall in SNP support from 50% to 37%.

      It is my prediction that there will be a “snap” Brexit and the SNP will be caught napping and unable to hold a second independence referendum.

      Or another “snap” Westminster election with the SNP again losing support.

      Despite the pretendy “sovereignty” and boasting of the clueless pompous armchair pundits posting here, Scotland is again as far away from independence as ever.

      If they succeed in neutralising the Rev. Stuart Campbell and WOS, independence will be “stone dead” for at least 620 years.”

    140. Rock says:

      Nicola and Jeremy, Saint Theresa’s Little Helpers.

      Rock (8th December – “The Stoned Roses”):

      “It was the ultimate in stupidity and gutlessness for Nicola to stand “shoulder to shoulder” with “Tory scum” Saint Theresa and the “ghastly” Boris Johnson as they declared war on Russia after a false flag operation.

      She had no reason to open her mouth – she should have dismissed it as a reserved matter. That would have shut up the unionists. Instead she is now hostage to what she said.

      Nicola has fully backed the dishonest unionist civil servant trying to destroy Alex Salmond.

      The British Establishment has ZERO fear of Nicola but it is terrified of Alex Salmond.”

    141. yesindyref2 says:

      Ohmigud the village idiot bore has arrived.

    142. cynicalHighlander says:

      Rock says:
      22 December, 2018 at 8:39 pm

      Like Nicola, Jeremy will strike at the right moment – in 2640 AD.

      Jeremy will call a Vote of No Confidence and Nicola will call Independence Referendum 2.

      Both trying to outdo Methuselah!

    143. Rock says:

      Colin Alexander says:
      22 December, 2018 at 12:57 pm

      “Then to add to Rock’s gloating:”

      Scotland waiting for independence until 2640 AD because Establishment lawyer Nicola was too busy flogging a dead horse is no gloating matter for me.

    144. mike cassidy says:

      In case you haven’t heard it.

      Joanna Cherry wishing Rees Mogg the season’s best!

      He’ll be hoping the wee reesmoggs have clubbed together for an extra-underwear present this year.

    145. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      robertknight at 7.19

      Do love these dogmatic “experts” laying down the law and the facts about somethings they don’t even know they don’t know anything about.

    146. mike cassidy says:

      2640 extra pairs of pants.

      To be precise

    147. Rock says:

      Arthur Thomson says:
      22 December, 2018 at 4:42 pm

      “It pains me to see that there are still people on here who have good words to say for him.”

      There are people on here who have good words to say about Dugdale.

      Corbyn is a saint compared to Dugdale.

    148. Rock says:

      Dr Jim says:
      22 December, 2018 at 7:48 pm

      “Alex Salmond made a mistake which everybody is sorry for including him”

      That is the biggest FAKE NEWS of the year.

    149. Colin Alexander says:

      It was Alex Salmond that led the SNP to Indyref. So near and yet so far.

      Nicola Sturgeon, very competent speaker and seems a nice person, I’m sure most would agree. But what political successes? What exactly has she achieved as leader?

      Shafted at the Smith Commission and EVEL.

      Off the back of 2014 indyref and Smith Commission, 56 out of 59 MPs. One huge success. Credit where it’s due. And did what with them? Nothing. MPs admitting they rarely hear from the FM and it’s like two parties: Holyrood and WM. MPs involved in carpetbagging scandals etc.

      Nicola spouted off about indyref and when ignored by T. May appeared to lose her bottle and failed to fight election campaigns, relying only on the name of the SNP; entitlement politics.

      As a result lost nearly half the MPs in 2017 including some of their biggest hitters; could have lost almost all.

      Failed to gain a single council at the council elections. Both campaigns with no inspirational policies.

      The SNP’s record in elections with Nicola Sturgeon as leader has been mediocre to say the least.

      As for the SNP running the show regarding the anti-Brexit movement. Get real. The SNP barely register. Anti-Brexit only matters because there are a fair number of Tory and Labour politicians and celebrities that are pro-EU. The SNP, like the LibDems and UK Greens are just window dressing.

      Biggest mistake: trying to do things the Westminster way, like Keir Hardie and Labour. Assimilated.
      Becoming part of the UK Establishment they were supposed to destroy.

    150. Rock says:

      One_Scot says:
      22 December, 2018 at 5:25 pm

      “Lol, anyone who thinks that Nicola does not have Independence running through her veins or does not know exactly what she is doing, has not been paying attention.”

      Proud Cybernat says:
      22 December, 2018 at 5:48 pm

      “Sorry Craig Murray. I think the FM knows exactly what she needs before firing IR2 start gun.”

      Arthur Thomson says:
      22 December, 2018 at 6:14 pm

      “Nicola Sturgeon has played a binder in representing Scotland and the independence movement.”

      Capella says:
      22 December, 2018 at 6:36 pm

      “Nicola Sturgeon is a brilliant leader of the SNP and has been remarkably sure footed throughout the chaos that has engulfed the UK.”

      Liz g says:
      22 December, 2018 at 7:30 pm

      “Craig Murray
      I thought it was a very good “political “ move for Nicola to get behind a people’s vote.”

      If blind faith in religion is bad, blind faith in politicians is worse.

      No politician in Scotland has ever blown it as big time as Nicola did.

      Does a single poster here have the guts to predict when the next referendum will be held, this side of 2640 AD?

      For the record, in my humble opinion, Craig Murray is a typical Liberal Democrat opportunist who was bosom pals at the height of the independence referendum campaign with the Right (Dis)Honourable Alistair Carmichael, MP.

      Rock (13th December 2017 – “From the archives #2”):

      “I do not for one moment doubt Nicola’s commitment to Scottish independence. I only wished she had not trained as a lawyer.”

    151. Craig Murray says:

      Lenny Hartley @ 6.40pm

      I don’t have an ulterior motive. Many people here saw me with their own eyes during the 2014 Indyref where I ran myself into the ground campaigning, even when quite nastily ill, and made many more campaign speeches than quite a few MP’s/MSP’s. I had been nominated in 13 constituencies before the SNP hierarchy banned me as a candidate. there was a reason so many people nominated me. And if we get another campaign you will see it again.

      I sincerely hope I am completely wrong about Nicola. If she calls the Indyref next year I shall be absolutely delighted to be proven to be a stupid arse.

      But I think it is more likely in 3 years time nothing will have happened, everyone will be praising Nicola’s latest tactical excuse for not going for Indy just as enthusiastically as you all are in this thread, and you will be explaining to me why 2019 wasn’t really an opportunity at all.

      Time will tell. Let’s not fall out in the meantime.

    152. geeo says:

      Coco been using the Jackie Baillie calculator again…

      “As a result lost nearly half the MPs in 2017”

      35 is also, by your thinking, also nearly half of 56 is it ?

      Oh dear, coco, you are utterly tragic.

      Must try harder, kiddo.

    153. cynicalHighlander says:

      Corbyn is a saint compared to Dugdale.

      Both are lying hypocrites.

      Never mind -2 + 6 – 4 = 0

    154. Rock says:

      doug_bryce says:
      22 December, 2018 at 7:52 pm

      “Aye : Nicola backing peoples vote is a good idea.”

      If Scotland only narrowly wins independence in 2640 AD, there will be a “peoples vote” a couple of years later which might reverse the result.

      Don’t say you weren’t warned folks.

      Those calling or supporting a “peoples vote” are the enemies of democracy.

    155. Elizabeth Stanley says:

      I gave you a prediction Rock.

      Go look for it.

    156. Rock says:

      Colin Alexander says:
      22 December, 2018 at 9:08 pm

      “Biggest mistake: trying to do things the Westminster way, like Keir Hardie and Labour. Assimilated.
      Becoming part of the UK Establishment they were supposed to destroy.”

      Rock (25th January – “By hook or by Cook”):

      “The British Establishment makes sure that anyone who goes to Westminster gets corrupted.

      56 SNP MPs achieved as much for Scotland as 6 would have: ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

      I would prefer that all of them are called back or lose their seats before they have been bought off.”

    157. geeo says:

      @Craig Murray.

      It must be a full time job being such a sanctimonious and presumptious bore.

      Nominated and knocked back 13 times huh ?

      Ever even considered for a second, that maybe the ‘SNP Heirachy’ see a character flaw in you, that you are in clear denial about ?

      Probably not, as in a world of opinion, you see your opinion as the only fact.

      Only the Rock and Coco elevate their inane ramblings above all else on here, we laugh at them in these parts.

      You are in danger of putting yourself in exalted company.

      Not a good look.

    158. Craig Murray says:


      I don’t know if you don’t understand the process or are just being deliberately nasty.
      I was nominated in 13 constituencies, before the 2015 election. I was knocked back once, by the party hierarchy. The 2015 election followed the 2014 referendum so quickly that many including me were still going through the party candidate approval process while the constituencies were selecting. I was not “knocked back” in any constituency, I was refused central approval as a candidate.

    159. Rock says:

      Elizabeth Stanley says:
      22 December, 2018 at 9:22 pm

      “I gave you a prediction Rock.

      Go look for it.”

      No you didn’t:

      Elizabeth Stanley (5th December – “In different times”):

      “Rock,I have guts.

      I’ll make a prediction. You seem very keen on predictions.

      Call for Scottish inderef in March 2019.
      Vote in June 2019.”

      Rock (5th December – “In different times”):

      “That is not a prediction – it is your view.

      Do you think Nicola will call a referendum for June 2019?”

    160. Dr Jim says:

      The arseholes can’t help themselves because they’ve got NUTHIN so the full on we hate comes spitting out because they’re found out to be charlatons and mixers with only one agenda, HATE

      Tory Labour losers just doing their job of sewing hatred full of the FM should do this the FM should do that, the SNP are rubbish, the best though is when they start the mind reading trick to tell us all what the FM is thinking God almighty on a stick these folk are so stupid they use the same tactics they use on their own supporters to get them to vote for them then bring those tactics to WOS to thick to realise everybody on WOS doesn’t vote for these parties because they see through what they are

      I see the same Trolls day after day following the FM practically gasping for air to try and find nasty things to say in the hope of putting off SNP voters

      Don’t you people know by now it won’t work, and you know why because previous generations died very young and didn’t have the facility the internet allows for us old codgers who now live longer to tell younger folk the truth and history about their beloved Labour party and their adored Tories

      And you know what people like me intend to live a long time yet and we’ll keep right on reminding them of the crimes of these parties, so you’re ontae plums as they say as well as the media types who prop you up, us oldies have been aware of them for Yonks we know who they are and we’ll keep right on keeping on and there’s nuthin numpties like you people can do to stop us

      Now I’m off to have a happy Christmas with my kids and grandkids who are all SNP members, see we’re in the schools and everything….maddening isn’t it knowing that the era of Labour in Scotland is over for good for at least the next 30 years and it’s all down to old grandads and grandmoms like me because our kids know we wouldn’t lie to them because we know, we were there, we saw it, we lived it

    161. Elizabeth Stanley says:

      How sad can you get Rock?

      But you did go & find my prediction/view on my request.


    162. Rock says:

      robertknight says:
      22 December, 2018 at 7:19 pm

      “Québec made a huge mistake with their IndyRef2 and where now the prospect of an independent Québec?”

      Establishment lawyer Nicola is playing it very safely by delaying the next independence referendum to 2640 AD.

      But I am a bit afraid that if there is only a narrow Yes win, there will be a “peoples vote” in 2642 AD which might reverse the YES result in 2640 AD.

    163. Rock says:

      Elizabeth Stanley says:
      22 December, 2018 at 9:41 pm

      “How sad can you get Rock?”

      For the second time you have failed to answer and I predict you will be back again a third time claiming that you had answered.

      Are you related to Nick Robinson of the BBC by any chance Elizabeth?

    164. ScottieDog says:

      I’m glad I’m no political strategist but I’m quite comfortable with what the SNP are doing so far. There is much more absurdity to come before the SNP play their final card. They are doing themselves no harm just now. Had we a fair media, I believe their actions would put YESon 60%.

      Ive been in disagreement with SNP over a fair few things but this isn’t one of them.

      The U.K. establishment parties need to firmly nail their colours to the mast (and that IS starting to happen) before puts its cards in the table.

    165. Rock says:

      Elizabeth Stanley says:
      22 December, 2018 at 9:41 pm

      “How sad can you get Rock?

      But you did go & find my prediction/view on my request.


      Typical English colonial attitude, Elizabeth, considereing everyone else to be dogs.

    166. Elizabeth Stanley says:

      Excellent Rock.

      Go fetch your shameful ball. Good boy!

    167. mike cassidy says:

      Tag team trolling.

      Mick McManus and Jackie Pallo

      2640 victories in a row.

      And every one a fake!

    168. Dr Jim says:

      That’s me for the off

      May all the good people on WOS and you Rev Stu have a peaceful and happy Christmas

      For the clowns, not so much!

    169. yesindyref2 says:

      @Craig Murray: “But I think it is more likely in 3 years time nothing will have happened, everyone will be praising Nicola’s latest tactical excuse for not going for Indy just as enthusiastically as you all are in this thread

      Craig, seriously, stop making wrong assumptions. NOBODY in this thread has said anything remotely like that, no genuine person anyway, just the trolls.

    170. Phronesis says:

      Scotland’s independent future will be built on a sure foundation of a small country making its own way in a globalised world, outward facing and inclusive of all who want to make their homes in Scotland.As the old WM political system completely breaks- archaic, retrogressive,unable to adapt we should not mourn its passing.
      WM is failing its citizens with the over-elevation of those in power- vacuous and nebulous individuals who value economy and profit above anything else. Democracy has been traduced to a barrage of misinformation bought and paid for by dark money as the UK hurtles towards its final destination- rUK.
      A fitting end to the empire. Scotland will be a new model of democracy, with core humanitarian values and socially just- exactly what the world needs. It is the necessary seismic shock to heal the British psyche.

      ‘Things fall apart when empires crumble. This time, we think, things will be different. They are not. This time, we are told, we will become great again. We will not…the vote to leave the EU was the last gasp of the old empire working its way out of the British psyche. Fuelled by a misplaced nostalgia, the result was driven by a lack of knowledge of Britain’s imperial history, by a profound anxiety about Britain’s status today, and by a deeply unrealistic vision of our future…jingoistic ignorance of the past’

    171. Colin Alexander says:


      Back to trolls are we? Should it no be elves and Santa Claus for Christmas?

      Only the true believers and the heretics eh? I’m as sovereign as you. Craig Murray is as sovereign as you. Breeks is as sovereign as you.

      We are all as sovereign as Nicola Sturgeon. She is not our ruler. UK Parliament is. The UK Supreme Court said so.

      We are all entitled to our opinions. You and others are happy with the SNP; we aren’t.

      If YES were called; we’re all gonnae be on the same side, singing from the same hymn sheet. Till then we should be free to discuss it like adults without stupid name calling.

    172. schrodingers cat says:

      craig murray was a solid campaigner during indyref1,

      he lives in my constituency, nefife. I take issue with anyone who doubts his commitment to indy. He is a passionate and engaging speaker and coming from a libdem background is a bonus in this constituency. not everyone in our movement is a life long snp supporter, indeed, such activists are the minority. I welcome converts from all parties, without which the snp would still be a minority concern.

      I understand his, and many others, frustration that we havent kick started indyref2 campaign again. but disagreements on the exact timing were always going to happen. I just have faith in the snp. why wouldnt I? have you seen the quality of our MPs and MSPs?

      what what it is worth Craig, I agreed with the snp decition not to let you stand. to be a snp politician you have to be extremely squeeky clean. Even then, this wont necessarily protect you from the msm. ask michelle thompson. there is one rule for unionists and one rule for us.

      more importantly craig, I think you, like stu campbell, are of more service to us as bloggers than as politicians. being outside the snp allows you a freedom to speak that you couldnt have within the snp and especially if you were an elected rep. had you been chosen and elected, the first time you said something controvertial in your blog, the msm would make a bee line to nicolas door demanding you were thrown out, #snpbad etc

      Indyref2 will happen in 2019. have faith

    173. Hamish100 says:

      Alexander – how do propose Independence with just your rock and one or two other wayward souls.

      Aint gonny happen is it sonny?

      People are sovereign. everyone is sovereign , uk parliament is sovereign– eh? confusing yourself there old chum

    174. sassenach says:

      The increased frequency of the Coco/Rock outpourings tonight definitely tell us their bowels are starting to rumble and squeak.


    175. Cubby says:

      Rockshit = Colinshit = Britshit.

      The Britnats are stinking the place out with their Britnat crap. There has been a massive dump of Britnat crap this evening. Best to hold your nose and pass on by.

    176. yesindyref2 says:

      Exactly. Craig Murray is a maverick, could anyone imagine him toeing a party line, at all?

      Indy needs mavericks. Else we’d have to invent them.

    177. Rock says:

      Elizabeth Stanley says:
      22 December, 2018 at 9:41 pm

      “How sad can you get Rock?

      But you did go & find my prediction/view on my request.


      Rock says:
      22 December, 2018 at 9:48 pm

      “Typical English colonial attitude, Elizabeth, considereing everyone else to be dogs.”

      Elizabeth Stanley says:
      22 December, 2018 at 9:53 pm

      “Excellent Rock.

      Go fetch your shameful ball. Good boy!”

      I will quote this exchange when you come back to dupe the more gullible independence supporters, Your Imperial Highness Elizabeth.

      Rock (9th December – “The Stoned Roses”):

      “I make no demands, but I know you wouldn’t dare answer because you are a pretendy “independence supporter” who pops up to dupe gullible independence supporters whenever the question of the right for English settlers in Scotland to vote in an independence referendum on Scottish independence from England comes up.”

    178. schrodingers cat says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      22 December, 2018 at 10:26 pm
      Exactly. Craig Murray is a maverick, could anyone imagine him toeing a party line, at all?

      Indy needs mavericks. Else we’d have to invent them.

      lol, exactly what I said, except i needed a whole page 🙂

    179. Capella says:

      @ Craig Murray – I enjoy reading your blog and make a small contribution to help keep it alive. I was disappointed that you were not selected as a candidate for the SNP.

      There will be another election along soon IMO. The SNP will run on an Independence manifesto IMO. That would be a good time for all good men to come to the aid of the party.

      Meantime I agree that we must resist attempts to divide and rule. You have a great deal of valuable insight to contribute to the cause.

    180. Ian Brotherhood says:

      It’s come to a sorry pass when a thread is dominated by the ‘own-goals’, and the other comments are mostly bickering between genuine indy supporters.

      Craig M has his differences with the SNP high-heid-yins – that’s an historic thing and it’s all more-or-less on the record and that’s fine. Aside from the substance of what Craig is saying on this thread right here, the salient point, surely, is that the man is a genuine ‘Winger’ – he reads, comments, attends social gatherings etc. Loads of us have met him all over the country during the past five, six years, and who would dare doubt his committment to the cause?

      We can not and will not – ever – agree on everything. (We may not manage – occasionally – to agree on anything!) But we are here, on a Saturday night, when others are out on the town or happily zonked in front of the telly, because this place demands our attention and input.

      If we don’t keep contributing here – even if it is only to disagree – then the Ten Pin Bowls win.

      And who, really, wants to see that happen?



    181. Capella says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood – exactly 🙂

    182. Elizabeth Stanley says:

      Carry on Rock.

      While you are replying to my posts others are having a rest.

      I’ll still continue to be English born (can’t help that fact),an SNP member & will vote for Scottish independence.

      My only regret in this sort of shit conversation is that I was not born Scottish. Then you & people like you would have nothing. I do feel a difference when people like you try to make a difference.

      However I am very glad that I differentiate from your position.

    183. Lenny Hartley says:

      Craig Murray, i can assure you if there is no indy ref2 before the mandate runs out, i will be as vocal as youin condemning Nicola, im pretty confident she has a plan and it wont be long before we bare the fruits of her strategy.
      However I think your blog post is giving ammunition to the Brit Nats so they can report on the so called continuing SNP Civil War.
      Your right we shoud not fall out,I agree with you on many things.

    184. Colin Alexander says:

      It’s a weird situation anyway, the SNP being run from the colonial branch office. Scotland’s sovereignty lies at UK Parliament. I would argue it is represented by our MPs.

      Question: So, Why didn’t NS stand to be an MP when she became party leader?

    185. cynicalHighlander says:

      schrodingers cat
      22 December, 2018 at 10:16 pm


    186. Liz g says:

      Shrodingers Cat & Yesindyref2
      Re Craig Murray…
      I’ve listened to Craig at a fair few rallies and spent some time with him at the Glenrothes night out.
      When he turned up looking for a few friendly faces as the MSM decided to pick on him that week!
      Therefore I think it’s fair to say I have a wee bit of the measure of the man..

      I do not doubt that his point of view is genuinely expressed and well worth reading.
      But I also think that he is perfectly capable of looking at and considering a different take on a situation. Especially one that is reasonably explained!
      The ensuing debate could be both enlightening and cathartic??
      But these two clowns CA/R are determined not to let that happen…!!!
      They will fail
      People like us who have a different takes on matters… only look to debate and won’t shut up..
      So thanks for speaking up

    187. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Socrates MacSporran at 5.53

      Agree entirely. Craig is well off the mark. He has little experience of the actual mechanics of politics. He of course is getting support from Colin Alexander (or whoever that is) and that lets us know that what Craig is espousing is against our better interest.

    188. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      K1 @ 20:36,

      Season’s greetings to you and yours also!

      And to all other Wingers, including the fake ones… =grin=

    189. ronnie anderson says:

      Craig Murray I certainly dont doubt your commitment to the cause of Scottish Independence . Craig your time will come for a seat in Holyrood , the selection panel have a lot to answer for as do the complaints committee , chin up auld fella its coming yit for aw that , aw the bestest tae U your Wife & wee Calum .

    190. schrodingers cat says:

      With every Tory led opinion poll and disastrous report coming back from leave constituencies in the Midlands and the North I predict Labour will back May’s deal in the new year to give them the Brexit they want and relieve them from the early election they now don’t want.


    191. schrodingers cat says:

      soz, that last post was a tweet by pete wishart

    192. ScotsRenewables says:

      Craig Murray says:
      22 December, 2018 at 9:14 pm

      I sincerely hope I am completely wrong about Nicola. If she calls the Indyref next year I shall be absolutely delighted to be proven to be a stupid arse.

      Craig, I believe you will be proved wrong, but you are most certainly NOT a stupid arse. Let;s leave that epithet for our resident Britnat trolls, Cock and Rolin.

      I don’t think many here doubt your commitment to the cause, which can be served in many ways inside or outside the SNP, inside or outside Holyrood and Westmsinter.

      Keep the faith!

    193. schrodingers cat says:

      Liz g


      im getting annoyed by r an ca numerous posts. it is killing the thread and stopping any real discussion happening. very annoying. i try to scroll past as per stus instructions, but these folk add nothing to the debate, they merely repost text from a pre prepared text

    194. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      The proliferation of panicked contributions on here from the usual suspects indicates how badly they are loosing.

      Just as a matter of interest Nicola Sturgeon has and has held the SNP at its highest ever figure despite a continuous campaign in all the media to destroy her and us.

      In the meantime Labour is hurtling towards single figures in Scottish polls and latest polls are showing us winning back most of those seats we lost to the Tories in the most useless campaign I ever saw the SNP mount last year.

      Online comment is recording a stampede away from Labour support from some very significant figures and I had a lifelong Tory tell me today that there was no way he could vote against independence now.

    195. schrodingers cat says:

      ronnie anderson chin up auld fella its coming yit for aw that , aw the bestest tae U your Wife & wee Calum


      well said ronnie

    196. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Elizabeth Stanley @ 22:46,

      Though there are probably better ways to spend your time on here than spar with our resident cretin, the madman in the attic, you have at least succeeded in exposing him (or more accurately, getting him to expose himself) as the nasty piece of work that he truly is.

      The closer to winning we get, the more rattled and extreme he becomes. A sure sign. Before, it was just “complain by numbers”, now the more he rants, the clearer it is to all of us just who he is and what he is about. Give him rope…

      Anyway, “nihil illegitimus carborundom”. Scotland needs people like you. Have a joyful Christmas!

    197. manandboy says:

      Off the pace a little on Wings due to a busy few days.

      Read this, as a prelude to the worse case scenario.

      “To make no-deal happen, all its supporters have to do is stonewall everything else. If they can block an early election, block a deal, and block a second referendum – or run out the clock on them – they get what they want by default, and the rest of us will get the worst economic chaos in living memory. To an extent, they have the upper hand.

      The clock is ticking faster than we know, because every course of action except inertia takes time. Once we hit the middle of February, an early election becomes a non-starter: the campaign period would take us through March 29, and so we would have no parliament during the critical exit date, making revocation of Article 50 (and possibly an extension of it) literally impossible.

      We should not despair: thanks to efforts through the year, stopping Brexit is now a real possibility. But this is also the absolute worst time to relax, and certainly to celebrate. We are coming up to the real Brexit danger zone, and we need to walk into it with our eyes open, and ready for what will be a vicious and high-stakes fight.

      The country is dangerously polarised, to the point that the possibility of any of the ‘moderate’ Brexit deals – whether May’s, Norway, or Canada – seems to be dropping, leaving us with the likely face-off between no Brexit and no-deal. It is a winnable battle, but one that we have to be ready to fight. Now is not the time to listen to anyone who reassures you no-deal is off the table. Brexit is over – but only if you want it, and work for it.”

    198. Thepnr says:

      Let’s get something straight, Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP have never changed their mind over another Independence referendum. They have precisely the same stance now as they had in their 2015 manifesto over the EU and whether we are taken out against our will or not ect. ect.

      There are far too many ready to get on Nicola Sturgeons back and demanding she get the finger out, call it now blah fucking blah. You lot that do this need to pause a bit and think about what you’re demanding.

      First off she has been totally consistent in that ahe will make a statement on a 2nd Independence referendum “when Brexit is clear” what part of that is difficult to understand? As far as I’m concerned she is 100% correct in doing so.

      Look at the state of the so called ERG led by Rees-Mogg, that lot made a complete arse of getting rid of May because they got the timing wrong and went too soon. They got their 48 fucking letters for a vote of No confidence but they were a waste of time as they had NO CHANCE of winning when they forced that vote.

      Now if they had waited until she had lost the “meaningful vote” then they would have had a chance. I don’t even see their challenge as being serious, it was nothing other than a waste of time and gave May another year. You might even believe that there were some who agitated for it just so as they knew she would win!

      Corbyn is in the same boat now, he would lose a confidence vote now and will even probably lose one even after the “meaningful vote” and that’s if he ever calls one which I doubt.

      It pisses me off that some Independence supporters have so little faith in the only real political party that has broad enough support to get us there constantly undermine in particular their leadership.

      There is no better out there, WE need faith in our leaders and we must support them or stick our heads back under the covers as this will be going nowhere. Just for a change some of you really need to start talking them up, encourage others to support them, stop the fucking grumping and instead shout their praises from the rooftops.

      Sycophant? Realist more like and Nicola Sturgeon is head and shoulders above any other politician you could hope to have to lead this movement. That’s not opinion just an absolute fact. Or tell me otherwise, who better?

    199. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Thepnr –

      Hear hear.

    200. ronnie anderson says:

      Just in case anyone’s missed this .

    201. schrodingers cat says:

      Ian Brotherhood says:

      Craig M has his differences with the SNP high-heid-yins – that’s an historic thing and it’s all more-or-less on the record and that’s fine. Aside from the substance of what Craig is saying on this thread right here, the salient point, surely, is that the man is a genuine ‘Winger’ – he reads, comments, attends social gatherings etc. Loads of us have met him all over the country during the past five, six years, and who would dare doubt his committment to the cause?

      We can not and will not – ever – agree on everything. (We may not manage – occasionally – to agree on anything!) But we are here,


      aye, well said ian, once upon a time, indy was a source of fun, i used to fall out wi’ folk and take the piss oot o’ folk, you included. apologies

      what is happening or about to happen is much less funny, franky boyle admitted this in his article in the guardian today, it is difficult to find any humour this xmas. he succeded where i cant.

      what once was a desire, a wish etc, is now an imperative.

    202. Liz g says:

      Ian Brotherhood & Thepnr
      Right.. Ok …
      If we all know who the Trolls are..
      I’d like your nominations for who is..Big Billy Goat Gruff?
      And where the fuck is the bridge…

      In Scotland’s story these things matter!!!

    203. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat @ 23:38,

      Agree with Pete about that. As it gets down to the wire next month, Labour will crumble just like the Tories and there will be enough votes between them to get Treeza over the line. With an outside chance they stumble unwittingly into no-deal instead.

      I agree with you (as I already said upthread) that we are approaching the tipping point. Where I disagree is only in its visibility in the polls. The situation is pregnant with potential change, but it will require a push with good timing to make it actually happen. The match applied to the gunpowder trail, or the grain falling into the supercooled liquid, if you like.

      People are becoming increasingly worried, and just waiting for someone they trust to show a viable pathway out. That’s what’s needed, taking the initiative and not hanging about hesitating, waiting for The Sign.

      Recognise the pent-up demand, and breach the dam.

    204. Thepnr says:

      Big Billy Goat Gruff is “The Man”, that guy in the cartoon that is pulling Corbyn’s strings like he tries to pull ours.

      Meet the man, he’s not nice but is in the hearts of many.

    205. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @SC –

      Everything is cool brother, as aye.


    206. robertknight says:

      “Dave McEwan Hill says:
      22 December, 2018 at 8:53 pm
      robertknight at 7.19

      Do love these dogmatic “experts” laying down the law and the facts about somethings they don’t even know they don’t know anything about.”

      I have an opinion Dave, I claim no expertise, and my opinion re. the merits or otherwise of pursuing IndyRef2 is as valid as the next. Try playing the ball…

      Do you think that WM will play nice? Do you think that the Weirs or some other minted pro-Yes benefactor will be willing to stump up seven figure sums to match the spending of our opponents? Do you think that the experiences of Quebéc and Cataluña can teach us nothing? Do you think that the constant harping of Yoons re. IndyRef2 encourages the electorate to engage? Do you think it wise for Yes/SNP to place all the eggs in the basket marked IndyRef2?

      There are no “experts” here Dave – just opinions voiced in an echo chamber interspersed with those of the occasional Troll.

    207. Thepnr says:

      NOBODY knows what might happen in the next few weeks. NO deal, May’s deal or another vote. Nobody knows, fixating on one or the other is pointless.

      That’s why we’re waiting for Nicola Sturgeon to say where she believes the next moves should be. It would be pointless to do otherwise. Only a complete ididot would make VER VERY importnat decisions without the having all the facts first.

      Nicola Sturgeon is far from being an idiot, lets leave that to moniker Corbyn and May. I believe that most of you do want to actually WIN Independence?

      Fight harder and get right behind the leaders then, there really is no other way. If we can’t believe in Surgeon then why should we expect No voters too? Time to get real.

    208. Liz g says:

      Thepnr @ 12.23
      While a very ” relevant ” (scary as fuck) video Alex!
      I have to ask
      What kind of crazy arsed version of – The Three Billy Goats Gruff – were you told?

    209. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      robertknight @ 00:29,

      So given all these impossibles you kindly mention, what’s your solution, pray? “Revolution”, maybe?

      We’ve seen this kind of concern trolling, negativity and possible AP pushing before. Some on here are even experts at it.

      Try offering solutions instead of difficulties and maybe then we’ll see what you’re really made of…

    210. Colin Alexander says:

      I never said hold indyref NOW.

      I said the SNP promised Indyref if Scotland is being dragged out the EU. That’s by 29 March 2019, unless Brexit gets cancelled / delayed.

      Then we get negotiating with the EU and take court action to establish if Scotland remains a member of the EU via EU treaties.

    211. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Schrö said:

      “im getting annoyed by r an ca numerous posts. it is killing the thread and stopping any real discussion happening.”

      That’s exactly why they’re here, NOT for discussions about the pro an’ cons.

      They’re here to deflect, spin, make the site untrustworthy, stop the truth getting out and turn off new visitors.

      I’ve said it, the Rev’s said it, lots of other folk have said it, time after time, but still some people can’t resist the urge to “communicate” with the trolls.

      Don’t feed the trolls – otherwise they stay and breed.

      They don’t give a toss about what you say or any arguments or facts.

      You are the mugs, the suckers and the trolls just love you.

    212. Thepnr says:

      @Liz g

      Sorry, I wasn’t thinking of the goats. Just the troll and anyway it was an excuse to play that video which is on topic being a bit Satanic. Lest we forget some might say.

    213. ronnie anderson says:

      Dave McEwan Hill Aye rite Dave Craig diznae hiv the mechanics of politics ( pmsl ) at that as a former diplomat he had to have a great deal of knowledge of world politics , & Dave hiave a bit more respect for a Winger Craig would be aghast at any support from Britnat Trolls .

    214. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Thepnr @ 00:31:

      NOBODY knows what might happen in the next few weeks. NO deal, May’s deal or another vote. Nobody knows, fixating on one or the other is pointless.

      True that. But we already know that whatever they decide – or funk – it won’t be good. We just have to wait till the public-at-large catch up with that fact next month.

      But then – crucially – be ready and willing to capitalise on that and ACT.

    215. Liz g says:

      Thepnr @ 12.47
      Aw ok Alex ….. A little relieved,I gotta say… LOL..

    216. yesindyref2 says:

      It’s wolf pack tactics too, but in reverse at times. So if the trolls see someone with a different point of view being “attacked”, they might come out with the same views to get the “trust” and later support of that one temporarily cut off from the rest because of a different view. So for instance a support of Craig’s view, even if they actually don’t give a damn either way.

      Well, **** that for a game of soldiers. As they say.

    217. Thepnr says:

      Bedtime story courtesy of Liz g 🙂

      Big bold Billy Goat Gruff was jealous and couldn’t wait to get across the bridge and join his brothers. So boldly, he put his hooves onto the bridge. Trip, trap, trip, trap. Suddenly the Troll loomed out from under the bridge.

      ‘Who’s that trip trapping over my bridge?’ he boomed.

      ‘It’s me. Big Billy Goat Gruff. Who do you think you are?’

      ‘I’m the Troll and I’m going to eat you for breakfast, lunch and tea!’

      ‘Oh no, you’re not’

      ‘Oh yes I am – you’ll see!’

      Then the Troll rushed at Big Billy Goat Gruff who bent his head and bravely charged at the Troll, catching him up in his horns and tossing him into the stream below. The Troll disappeared under the rushing water, never to be seen again.

      If only it were true LOL

    218. Chick McGregor says:

      And Lucifer is saying: “It taks a lang spoon tae sup wi the Labour Party”.

    219. TJenny says:

      Liz g – ‘where the fuck is the bridge…’

      Is there no a Union Bridge somewhere in Scotland? Sure there must be. 🙂

    220. Thepnr says:

      I realise that the last video I linked to may have upset people for obvious reasons. There’s no point in apologising for that as it does represent the worst side of the world as we see it now and is too often unreported.

      As an antidote and something positive to think about, this was first played on Wings before the first referendum in 2014 and I’ve never forgotten it. I think we are respected more than most believe by our European cousins.

      If you’ve never seen this I’d be surprised if you don’t feel pride.

    221. ronnie anderson says:

      AS we would say doon the maiket in times of trouble Build ah bridge an get er it

    222. Colin Alexander says:

      Convoy of SNP lame ducks and merchant tankers sighted. Dive to 10m, then bring us up to torpedo depth. Load all forward tubes. Fire, fire, fire, fire.

      SNP Lame ducks and merchant tankers sunk.

      Time to get out of here in our U-boat mein kameraden. Before the destroyers Ronnie Anderson and Ian Brotherhood drop the depth charges.

      Gute Nacht.

    223. Thepnr says:

      Another troll tossed over the bridge and disappears below the water.

    224. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Thepnr.

      To complement your YouTube link, I feel I must offer this, in remembrance of The Auld Alliance.

    225. ronnie anderson says:

      Thepnr gone where Mrs Nebulous ‘s gone 10.000 leagues under the sea , dey swim wie da fishes .

    226. Thepnr says:

      @ronnie anderson

      See you next Wings night hopefully, Glasgow in February I believe.

    227. Thepnr says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon


    228. ronnie anderson says:

      Thepnr need tae get the date sorted soon as i have told the Wife to book a holiday to sunnier climes for Feb/Mar & def before the end of Mar .

    229. TJenny says:

      BDtt – man if that disnae stir your Scottish soul, bring a wee tear to your eye, and light your indy fire, you’re either deid or a yoon.

    230. Ot but somehow not.
      Alex Massie in a desperate attempt to be relevant and have people talking about him, accuses the SNP of ‘faux outrage’.
      I’m not a member of the SNP therefore do not really have a dug in this fight.
      My only contribution is, really, Massie? Is this all you’ve got?
      We’ve moved on from this shallow mince that the Dead Tree Scrolls ar paying you an indecent amount of money to churn out.
      SNP are not Bad.
      I take it that you will be moving South to Empire 2 come April?
      I’ll phone a taxi; on me.

    231. Cactus says:

      Here’s Jeremy and co.

      Nice horns.

    232. Cactus says:

      Everybuddy gettin’ riled up aye… it must be the work of.. Santa.

      Good, good, good, good, good, good, good.

      Enjoy yer remaining days of ’18 y’all.


      N. N. N. N.

    233. Thepnr says:

      You’re at the game right and it’s not going well. You’re 1-0 down but there’s still half an hour left.

      Then probably your best player fluffs a tackle and the opposition get control, do you shout:

      1.) Murphy ya useless bastard fuck off back to Ireland.


      2.) Murphy get back in there we can do this and we’ll win!

    234. yesindyref2 says:

      What’s that expression I heard earlier on NCIS? Oh yes:

      If you’re going through Hell, keep going.

    235. Cactus says:

      Did you know this Cairnstoon Corbyn has a drawstring on his back and when the devil pulls his cord, he says “Nothing”(abstain by default) he’s a broken bunny and that’s not funny, well it really is.

      SO here are some that work (WARNING, U may find this ‘dark’ 🙂

      A-yo ho ho, ho ho ho-ho, as U know.

      And whom is Satan?

    236. Cactus says:

      The devil stroke satan made me think of this musical song:

      Laed on.

      Seasons G’s festive neighbours, keep on powering on thru it all Scotland and enjoy yersels throughout it, the big iPush is coming…

      2 turtle doves remaining to soar.

    237. Calum McKay says:

      Not heard a peep out of self stiled “hard working man of the people” Ian Murray on his party leaders betrayal of, well just about everything?

      Perhaps Ian Murray believes in state aid so uk can compete with China on coal or steel that the uk could not sell beyond its borders for a host of reasons.

      labour / tories, two sides of same coin!

    238. Cactus says:

      SO whom is Satan here hmmm?

      On closer inspection it could be a cross between prince philip and Ted Danson, freaky fried furniture! Aye can’t unsee that NOW, clever cookie CC.

      But the question is… who works Satan’s strings? 😉

      Aye Love Santa X.

    239. twathater says:

      Thepnr words of wisdom you have spouted and SC sensible stuff ,we are all desperate for indy including Craig Murray and breeks but as IB says we don’t always agree on the methodology , but we have all voted for Nicola and the SNP to get us there , as RP is wont to say there is no one better equipped to do better , I also am frustrated and impatient but if Peffers who has waited 70 years to get so close has faith that our time is now i’ll maybe be able to hing on a wee while longer . As I posted upthread earlier Prof John Robertson’s blog explainerises this frustration

    240. Liz g says:

      God made man
      And Man made money
      God made the Bees and the Bees made
      God made Satin… and Satin made sin
      God made a big hole
      Tae put Satin in….

      Who made the strings…. nobody knows….. Aw whit a pity!!

    241. Cactus says:

      Santa is on the seasonal pipes:

      A break is good, then back.

      HO HO HO!

    242. Cactus says:

      Hey Liz, that’s excellent, likey likey, gods are cool 🙂

    243. Liz g says:

      Goddess even cooler?
      What say you Cactus

    244. Cactus says:

      Aye say aye.

      Goddesses galore!

      Mother earth being a she as is she the creator.

      What say you Liz

    245. yesindyref2 says:


      Night all!

    246. Cactus says:

      Hehe, och aye, who kens whit’s whit, as long as we awe get to iDestination X.

      That is all that matters eh.

      Respect to your thoughts.

      Heres some boney may:

    247. Liz g says:

      Aye say…
      The next Wings Gathering wull be…

    248. Dorothy Devine says:

      Apologies to anyone of a religious nature who might find this offensive and to all those who prefer things to scan perfectly.

      This was ‘inspired’ by the lady who spoke of her Glaswegians husband’s misinterpretation of a carol.

      A wean in a manger
      No crib for a bed
      Got a full baby box
      From Nicola instead

      The stars in the bright sky
      Looked down where he lay
      And a Record reporter
      Set alight to the hay

      The Herald and Scotsman
      The record as well
      Indeed the whole Scottish media
      We will see you in Hell!

      Merry Christmas!

    249. Giving Goose says:

      Corbyn is at heart an old fashioned British Nationalist. His support for various causes e.g. Palestine is through a snob induced paternalistic union jack prism.

      British superiority runs through his veins.

    250. Famous15 says:

      I noticed an increasing number of comments on social media in defence of Labour comments that rubbish the SNP usually saying education,NHS,Transport etc in Scotland is terrible.They provide no evidence for this nonsense and the fact that though no service is perfect it is a damn sight better than in EW and NI.

      Watch out for,”Tell a lie often enough etc” I think there is a concerted effort by All Unionists to repeat this lie.

    251. robertknight says:

      “Robert J. Sutherland says:
      23 December, 2018 at 12:42 am
      robertknight @ 00:29,

      So given all these impossibles you kindly mention, what’s your solution, pray? “Revolution”, maybe?

      We’ve seen this kind of concern trolling, negativity and possible AP pushing before. Some on here are even experts at it.

      Try offering solutions instead of difficulties and maybe then we’ll see what you’re really made of…”

      I don’t claim to have the “solutions” Robert. But should that stop me from pointing out what to me are obvious difficulties with IndyRef2 in the hope that somebody else might? Or does stepping outside the accepted groupthink on here simply get an individual branded a “troll”? (I don’t have a clue what “AP pushing” is BTW, so I can’t respond to that particular accusation).

      If expressing the opinion that IndyRef2 is not the panacea that some would see it and that Yes also needs a Plan B, for the reasons I’ve outlined earlier, makes me guilty of “trolling” in your eyes, then so be it. That doesn’t take from the problems I see associated with IndyRef2 being clear and present obstacles to Independence and if such are ignored by the Yes movement, or if discussion of possible solutions should be shut down through personal attacks as attempted here, then it does so at its peril.

      To march full steam ahead without a plausible Plan B is foolhardy – just look at the TM clusterboorach unfolding before our eyes.

    252. Cubby says:

      A new day and some things stay the same.

      Rockshit = Colinshit = Britshit.

    253. Hamish100 says:

      Dorothy Devine

      Away in a manger.

      Off to Church but found your carol witty. For my fellow po faced CofSc I try my best to convert them (no not Roman Catholicism- Rees-Mogg follows that branch) but to Independence. Truth is many are sitting comfortable, they may love their grandchildren but not so much that they wish to see their lives impacted. They are British first and white heather club Scots further down their list of priorities. Our future is our young people and those persons who did not vote. However, some are very worried about Brexit and their pensions.

    254. Clootie says:

      Dyslexic devil worshiper sold his soul to Santa

    255. Dorothy Devine says:

      Hamish 100 , I take it the possible converts have been made aware of prescription charges , cancellation of ‘free ‘ bus services and having to pay to help their children and grandchildren through their education?

      Maybe point out that we have the lowest pension in Europe and the SNP Government consider it part of their day job to mitigate the worst of Westminster.

      I hear what you’re saying about the comfortably off but it just takes a redundancy , illness or accident to alter people’s lives to such a degree that they become reliant on the state – and the ‘state’ is in quite a state

      Best church notice I have ever seen went something like this ,
      ‘All welcome , there’s room for a few more hypocrites inside.

    256. Breeks says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:
      23 December, 2018 at 12:50 am
      Thepnr @ 00:31:

      NOBODY knows what might happen in the next few weeks. NO deal, May’s deal or another vote. Nobody knows, fixating on one or the other is pointless.

      Tell that to Europe. They have a significant dog in this race, and have been trying to negotiate with UK smoke and mirrors for two and a half years. When Westminster presents Europe with a cunning muddle, Europe filters it through the EU’s Constitutional Handbook and shrugs it’s shoulders saying “dem’s de rulez”. Take it or leave it.

      The Irish Backstop is an exquisite example of Ireland raising the alert that Brexit threatened an International Peace Treaty registered with the UN, and the EU without a moments hesitation backed the Sovereignty of its member, incorporating International Law, the Sovereign integrity and will of an EU Member State into its “Brexit Containment Portfolio”. You can have Brexit any colour you like as long as its black. Dems da rulez. Take it or leave it.

      Ever since 2016, Westminster has been thrashing about like a giant swordfish caught on a line, as the EU has quietly wound it in without any fuss or ceremony. Westminster fought the law, and the law won, and the Law will keep winning. Dems da rulez. Take it or leave it.

      You know what really gets my goat about this interminable “wait and see” philosophy? Forget Nicola, forget the SNP, this constant reinvention of an excuse to do nothing is the very formula which has kept Scotland on its knees for 300 years. Take a minute – think about that. We have been “managed” for decades like sheep under a shepherd. Can we be absolutely certain we not being similarly “managed” right now?

      We were managed in 1979 to accept nothing and swallow the 60% rule. We were managed in 1997 to make do with Devolution. We were managed in 2014 to accept a result based upon lies and propaganda. Are we currently being managed from 2016-2019 to accept being robbed of our EU Citizenship? How fortunate for Westminster that we’re so polite and manageable, – and constitutionally dumb.

      The Treaty of Union itself is a tapestry of sophistry and ambiguity designed to obscure and distort Scotland’s constitutional integrity, and create uncertainty and confusion just like a conjuror flourishes one hand so you don’t see the sleekit hand switching the cards. The purpose? To keep Scotland unsure of itself and uncoordinated, and easily distracted from its task. Hmm… uncertainty and confusion…

      Compare and contrast our absolute lack of Constitutional progress, and I mean ABSOLUTE lack of progress, with Europe. Europe stood firm behind its written constitutional rulebook, and hung Westminster’s bullshit out to dry.

      The Super 6 took Scots Law to the ECJ, rebuffed intervention from the UK Supreme Court, AND WON.

      A Constitional Test Case from Scotland lodged now, seeking to revoke Article 50 unilaterally would cut through all the sophistry and shite of the Union Treaty, Scotland Act and Brexit mandate combined. Scotland would win that case too.

      That is the essential truth about why I cannot endorse the prevailing strategy. A second EuroRef??? I’m lost. Where are we going with that? 96 days left. I have no words. Are we really staying for the Grand Finale just too see the Conjuror pull a bunny from Rees-Mogg’s Top Hat?

      You know THE difference between the ECJ hearing the Scots Law case of the Super 6 and Scotland’s Government being excluded from Brexit negotiations? – It is having Legal Personality or not. It’s having Interlocutor status, or not. It’s whether Scotland is Sovereign, or not. It is the essence of the air we Independentists breathe. Why we dither and prevaricate about addressing this critical and definitive constitutional absurdity is totally beyond my comprehension.

    257. Robert Peffers says:

      @Colin Alexander says: 22 December, 2018 at 11:02 pm:

      ” … Question: So, Why didn’t NS stand to be an MP when she became party leader?”

      When you figure out the answer to that question, Colin, then, and only then, will you understand where true legal sovereignty rests – and it sure as hell is not with the Queen of England and her delegated de facto parliament at Westminster.

      Strangely enough the truth is writ large in the actual words they use and underlines the sheer brainwashed pish such as you wrongly believe it to be true and legal.

      The United KINGDOM parliament, Her Majesty’s Government, The Legally Sovereign people of Scotland, The legally Sovereign Queen of England are all legal facts.

      There is no legally elected parliament of either the country or the kingdom of England but there is a legally elected, reconvened, parliament of the country/kingdom of Scotland – and that Westminster instigated United KINGDOM Supreme Court has indeed backed off from claiming that the Scottish Claim of Right is not legally enforceable by the so called United KINGDOM parliament. A parliament that actually operates as the de facto parliament of the country of England.

      A parliament that uses the Westminster instigated EVEL legislation to enforce English domination of Scotland, Wales and N.I. A illegal form of devolved government that factually unequally devolves English laws upon three of four countries in what is legally a two partner United Kingdom that most certainly is not legally united as a two partner united kingdom.

      Can you deny any of the above is factual?

    258. Ghillie says:

      Clootie @ 9.27 am

      You win 🙂

    259. mike cassidy says:

      Breeks 9.56

      Are we really staying for the Grand Finale just too see the Conjuror pull a bunny from Rees-Mogg’s Top Hat?

      “Truth aint a rabbit. A trick that you pull from a hat.”

      From my song of the year!

    260. Golfnut says:

      @ Dorothy Devine.

      Absolutely brill wee poem. Thanks for sharing.

    261. galamcennalath says:

      A very sobering thought for the coming Christmas.

      This may be the last Christmas millions of UK families get for years to come if the Rees Moggs get their way!

      There’s still time to save Scotland from this disaster!

    262. mike cassidy says:

      galamcennalath 10.46


      I thought Brexit was all about saving traditions like Christmas from all us dangerous multiculturalists.

    263. Dorothy Devine says:

      Golfnut , me and McGonigal are best pals!

    264. Breeks says:

      Breeks says:
      23 December, 2018 at 9:56 am

      “We were managed in 1979 to accept nothing and swallow the 60% rule. We were managed in 1997 to make do with Devolution. We were managed in 2014 to accept a result based upon lies and propaganda. Are we currently being managed from 2016-2019 to accept being robbed of our EU Citizenship”.

      … Just to be clear, I didn’t mean the SNP was being managed, nor that we were being managed by the SNP.

      What I neglect to say was that a surge in momentum for Independence was “managed” by the UK Establishment and time and again the momentum dissipated.

    265. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Breeks @ 09:56,

      Just to be clear, that’s Thepnr‘s quote, not mine. While it’s strictly true as far as it goes, since anything could happen when the HoC reconvenes after the break, not all possibilities have equal probability. Personally,for example, I don’t see any way it is going to settle on an EURef2, nor do I see much chance of a GE any time soon. So when all the Remainers in Scotland realise that their only hope left is independence, that’s the time to act, and reap the harvest of all the goodwill that Nicola has sown.

      The same goes for the EU27. It’s all under the surface, but I believe they are noticing and appreciating Nicola’s attempts, even if in the event (as we expect) they are all ultimately in vain, as far as the UK as a whole is concerned. However, these efforts are all deposits in the bank of goodwill. The EU leaders are now clearly regarding Nicola and the SNP as a force for stability and not instability. That matters for what is to come.

      Now is still time over the break to garner trust and appreciation while popular opinion is more open than ever to listening and changing. But equally, very soon we will need to cash in on that latent support, not squander it all in the futile hope of better chances to come. It is that tendency of some which I believe is by far the greatest danger, not a further slight delay over the holiday period when people’s attention is diverted elsewhere anyway.

      It’s still “waiting to see the whites of the eyes” time, but we had still better be ready and willing to “open fire” when that happens.

    266. Colin Alexander says:

      @ Robert Peffers

      Nicola should have been at WM to bring our MPs home from the de facto English Parliament.

      I’m scunnered how nobody will listen to Craig Murray, Breeks, etc. about the SNP being sucked into to British / English politics instead of concentrating on leaving England’s EU problem to England, with the SNP concentrating on independence.

      I going to try to return to just reading the articles and avoid looking at BTL comments at all.

      Keep up the fight for independence, Robert. Hope your health continues to improve too.

      To Robert and all the Wingers: Have a good Christmas and all the best for the new year when it comes.

    267. geeo says:

      Bye then coco.

      Bet you don’t though, you like the sound of your dribble to much.

      Here is your 1st challenge, do not respond to this post, or prove you are full of smelly brown stuff.

    268. Hamish100 says:

      Dorothy re Church
      All welcome , there’s room for a few more hypocrites inside.

      I did ask for Colin or Rock but no response!

    269. Legerwood says:

      In the Sunday Herald today:
      1. Labour trying to bring forward the next Holyrood election to 2020. Lord Foulkes has a bill going through the Lordsto try to bring it forward.

      2 Glasgow Council, according to the report in the Herald, are considering usung various Glasgow buildings eg Concert hall, Riverside Museum, as collateral to raise money to pay the women owed money in the equal pay dispute.

      3. Drop in police numbers due to increasin level of retirements. The article is almost reduced to mince in places because of the very poor standard of English employed throughout. The article fails to mention how many will be replaced by those graduating from Tullialan.

    270. Ron Maclean says:

      It’s sad when commenters who raise difficult questions are being deterred by a collective of lotus-eaters, incontinent kale-yard philosophers, intemperate fantasists and neds.

      Merry Christmas Colin and thanks for trying.

    271. ronnie anderson says:

      Concerned Trolling is more pukeable than the average Trolling Faux faux faux

    272. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Ron Maclean @ 11:57,

      You’ve obviously not been following his trajectory on here. Reputation, good or bad, is earned, and his has been well earned as a complete diversion artist. He’s been all over the shop and back again with different positions, on and (mostly) off-topic, the only constant being persistent and quite unreasonable attacks on the SNP.

      We’re very aware that one of the favoured attack methods of a BritNat opposition now completely devoid of anything positive to offer is disengagement, to persuade those who are on the very cusp of winning to instead give up trying. And anyone who fancies themselves as a supporter of independence but colludes in that dirty business out of selfish motives or jealousy is just as contemptible.

      False friends of any kind we don’t need.

    273. Arthur Thomson says:

      @ Giving Goose 7.54

      Spot on.

    274. Dr Jim says:

      Remember when they told us loose lips sink ships
      now they’re upgrading CCTV to such a degree that they can read our lips and recognise our faces in case we mutter something unpatriotic….well in London that is

      It’s the Tory way of *gauging the mood of the nation* said Adolph Hess spokesperson for the Home office

      I made the spokespersons name up, it could be anything, Javid maybe…just a guess

    275. Gary45% says:

      Dr Jim@12.25
      Why do you think the Tories like wee freebie trips to visit the Zionists.

    276. Bob Mack says:

      @Colin Alexander,

      Domestic Scottish politics did not gain our independence in 2014, but just perhaps England’s politics will do just that.
      As we diverge further and further in our choices, the Union becomes unsustainable,

      I want England to pursue all its right wing policies clothed as British values. The more the merrier.

    277. Arthur Thomson says:

      @ Dorothy Devine 7.43

      Profound. Genuinely.

    278. Frank Gillougley says:

      A sincere thank you to stu and all wingers (apart from some it has to be said) for keeping me sane in 2018. Somehow, i think the road ahead in 2019 will be make or break for many.

      i hope it will be for the making of Scotland.

    279. Robert Peffers says:

      @Colin Alexander says: 22 December, 2018 at 11:02 pm:

      ” … Scotland’s sovereignty lies at UK Parliament.

      Nope! Scotland’s sovereignty legally lies in the hands of the people of Scotland. That is the independent Rule of Law of Scotland. It is correctly ratified as being so in the Treaty of Union that is the only written constitution of the United Kingdom that the Treaty gave birth to.

      ” … of course, as a Britnat, you would argue that it lies at Westminster, and you consistently do so argue it to be so.

      Except, Colin, it is most certainly demonstratively not so.

      ” … I would argue it is represented by our MPs.”

      You may argue till you go blue in the face but it does not make it legally so.

      Let’s just look at this in fact and not as Westminster propaganda, shall we?

      In the first place the correct legal title for the Westminster Parliament is, ‘Her Majesty’s Parliament of her United Kingdom”. In fact, ‘Her United Kingdom’, is totally the result of the Scottish monarch, King James I of Scotland inheriting the crowns of England, Wales & Ireland in 1603.

      It was/is entirely a personal united kingdom for Her Majesty the Queen inherited from her parents on the death of her father in 1952. That personal United Kingdom also includes the three Crown Protectorates and the English Crown Province of Northern Ireland as the latter is part of the country of Ireland illegally politically partitioned by Westminster.

      Later the southern part of that country of Ireland, the so called, “Irish Free State”, (which was not free but was a British Dominion), declared itself a republic and left the English Crown.

      None of which had anything to do with the Treaty of Union as that came about in 1707 – not 1603.

      The Treaty of Union, 1706/7 legally created a bipartite United Kingdom Government. It did not create a four country union with the country of England ruling over three dominions of the country of England as Westminster has been running now for 311 years.

      Devolution is a direct contravention of the Treaty of Union and replaced the way Westminster had contravened the Treaty of Union since I May 1707 by treating the Kingdom of Scotland as an unequal partner in what is legally a union of two equally sovereign kingdoms as described in the actual Treaty but never run as such.

      ” … Question: So, Why didn’t NS stand to be an MP when she became party leader?”

      Read the above and go figure.

      A) – The United Kingdom is a bipartite union of equals – it says so in the Treaty of Union.

      B) – The Sovereignty of the three country Kingdom of England legally rest on the Queen of England it says so in the English Rule of Law.

      C) – The sovereignty of the Kingdom of Scotland rest with the people of Scotland – it says so in the Scottish Rule of Law.

      D) – B & C being true then the two rules of Law are both incompatible and irreconcilable – it says so in the Treaty of Union.

      E) – The above points prove that the current set-up of Devolved Powers handed down to Scotland, Wales and N.I. are in direct contravention of the Treaty of Union as the United Kingdom is neither a single unified country nor is it other than a two partner United Kingdom as its title describes it.

      Yet the Holyrood Parliament is the reconvened parliament of the Kingdom of Scotland that was prorogued on 39 April 1707.

      See :-

      Note that Winnie was a lawyer and thus well aware of what she was doing. She did not simply open a new parliament, she reconvened one that was in temporary recession.

      Note also her so doing has never been contested by Westminster or anyone else. The latest such refusal to question that matter was only days ago in the Westminster Supreme Court and the matter is currently under review by the ECJ.

    280. K1 says:

      We have argued, debated, rumbled, raged and finally just walked away from every comment he’s typed since he started his spouting drivelling me me me pish on here on the back of ’17 election.

      And still people fall for Colin ‘the victim’, please spare us from the Johnny come lately brigade of bleedin hearts.

    281. wull2 says:

      My bedtime problem to solve last night.
      This mornings answer.

      I have always said, solve one problem at a time even if that causes more problems to solve.

      We are constantly told the people have spoken, so EU please revoke the A50 part before March, the part reefing to Scotland (a EU member country).


    282. Legerwood says:

      Robert Peffers @ 12.56
      “”…, is totally the result of the Scottish monarch, King James I of Scotland inheriting the crowns of England, Wales & Ireland in 1603.””

      James VI of Scotland surely.

    283. Al Dossary says:

      Let me start of by wishing the seasons best to all you wingers. Even the “ignore list posters” – my scroll on by finger has been on overtime this weekend.

      Just thinking of Corbyn and WTF he is actually doing. He vows to leave the EU no matter what – tells me he has some pretty bad polling from his industrial heartlands. How he is going to square that with his London supporters I have no idea.

      In fact I have no idea what the hell either of the two major Britnat parties are thinking atm. Both so terrified of losing their share of the “52%” that they are prepared to cast the other “48%” aside.

      So much so that were an independant party to stand next time around, solely on the ticket of rejoin the EU, they could just squeeze out the red and blue Torys. My how the lib Dems must be kicking themselves at the electoral suicide they committed to get into bed with Piggy boy for a sniff at power.

      That would be a sight to behold – Labour and Tory desperately trying to fight off a pro EU party after the carnage they have unleashed on the populace over their fear of UKIP.

      In the meantime in Scotland Corbyn seems to have given up on taking voters back from the SNP and is now targeting the anti-EU / Yoon brigade Tories that he has lost. But probably no one will tell Dickie (mire faces than the town clock) Leanord who will still try to tell all & sundry that he backs remain!

    284. yesindyref2 says:

      “rumbled”? Oh sorry, must have been something I ate.

    285. Cubby says:

      Ron McLean@11.57am

      You are right Colinshit is very trying. Trying to kid on he is an independence supporter. He has been trying this on for a long time and many a post. He is nothing but a Britnat posting Britshit trying to sow division and doubt amongst the more naive and gullible independence supporters.

      He is a Britnat shit stirrer. About 95% of his posts are anti SNP. Who will get Scotlands independence Colinshit or the SNP?

      If you want to call out people have the courage to do so and name who you are criticising. Assuming of course you are not a Rockshit or Colinshit in disguise.

    286. Cubby says:


      When I said that my Xmas wish was for you to pissof I did not mean for you pissof and then to come back as Ron Mclean@11.57am.

      I guess they must be paying the living wage these days.

    287. K1 says:

      ‘rumbled’ as in…fun oot!

    288. twathater says:

      Breeks all posts , breeks I agree with you wholeheartedly on the legal need for constitutional certainty , also on any declaration to the EU , the one ginormous problem is that it would signal openly to the britnats what the moves are .

      Let’s not kid ourselves the establishment are totally aware of Scotland’s riches they have been plundering and using them for centuries , even though collectively they have been conning the people north and south that we are nothing but subsidy junkies.

      To do as you suggest even although you are right would send almighty alarms to the britnats that we are deadly serious and legally encased in stone

      It is my belief that the establishment still think they can thwart or win a vote , but to go your route I believe treeza and the jerm would shit themselves and revoke article 50 which would leave many undecideds relatively happy with the status quo thereby making independence harder if not impossible for us diehards

      I agree with everything you have said but we have to realise that treeza is trying to force Nicola’s hand and in doing so she can react accordingly with whatever means to defeat our aims
      In being patient Nicola is frustrating treeza and the jerm ,they don’t know which direction she’s going so can’t outwit her , which is obvious as they fight like rats in a sack , which suits us , even if we’re at the cliff edge we can still take the legal route and ask the EU for a holding pen status , be patient independinistas Nicola wants to go down in history as the freeer of SCOTLAND

    289. Lochside says:

      ‘De facto English Parliament’…yes it is. But it is De jure the designated UK parliament and recognised legally as such by International opinion. And there’s the rub. We, the Scottish People via our also internationally recognised representatives of our democratic votes i.e our MPs, can only destroy its bogus existence by them making the legal moves to dissolve the dishonest Union breached innumerable times since its inception in 1707 by the democratic dictatorship of England’s MPS and claim our right to be the continuing half of the EU.

      Any other approach is pointless.The talking shop in Edinburgh has been effectively shuttered by recent events demonstrating the folly of devolutionary distractions.

      Worrying about the illegal Saxe Coburg Gotha’s dynasty, a line of monarchs transplanted into the Scottish crown vacated by the last of the Stewarts by force of English arms is of no consequence. It is a ‘constitutional monarchy’ an oxymoron, a dishonest smokescsreen for the Brit state to rubberstamp its nascent fascist rule over us.

      Queen Lizzie has interfered plenty of times of her own 2014 and in the latest underhand ‘royal assent’ of the strangled at birth continuity act but is nothing but a pampered glovepuppet of the Britnat state.

      The SG/SNP’s support of the PV may be nothing more than a political manoeuvre to win over the Jakey Rollinginit etc. but time is moving on and this further distraction is not helping the objective of prioritising our Sovereign nation’s rights as the central issue rather than supporting the illogicality of saving the Leave voting RUK from its own idiocy.

      I believe if the strategy is to faux fight Brexit No Deal and hope all the No’s will suddenly want Independence then it is wrong. Most ‘No’ voted thus due to reluctance for change, they ain’t going to vote on the back of Brexit chaos for more perceived chaos in a smaller state unit of a Scotland outside the EU.

      There has been no concentrated narrative for Independence since 2014: no currency defined; no guarantees on pensions and welfare; no explanation of Scotland’s actual wealth. These unanswered questions lost us the last REF. They will lose the next because of again, unpreparedness and lack of communication.

      I know many will argue that the answers have been given. But that was then. This is now. And there are no current guarantees to convince enough ‘No’s. That is why the current policy dismays me and I feel we will be at the mercy of England’s unforgiving revenge for our temerity in challenging their arrogant stupidity.

    290. Ghillie says:

      Chris, I’ve just had another look at your cartoon,

      (and it is always worthwhile going back for another look as more and more seems to emerge)

      And I can’t work out who the words ‘I don’t know what I’d do without him’ are actually coming from…

    291. Ghillie says:

      twathater @ 5.27 pm Well said =)

      Nicola Sturgeon WILL be known in our future history as The Freeer of Scotland 🙂

    292. Rock says:

      Elizabeth Stanley says:
      22 December, 2018 at 10:46 pm

      “Carry on Rock.”

      “However I am very glad that I differentiate from your position.”

      You do indeed, by displaying your typical English colonial mentality of considering others to be dogs.

      Elizabeth Stanley says:
      22 December, 2018 at 9:41 pm

      “How sad can you get Rock?

      But you did go & find my prediction/view on my request.


      Elizabeth Stanley says:
      22 December, 2018 at 9:53 pm

      “Excellent Rock.

      Go fetch your shameful ball. Good boy!”

      My comment about you wrongly claiming that you had answered my question had nothing to do with your Englishness, stop playing the “E” card.

    293. Cactus says:

      Mornin’ Ghillie, aye think the wee tilde symbol hints that it’s coming from Satan’s internal dialogue, as if to say No Deal is more likely now, cause Corbyn didn’t call the confidence vote.

      Notice how the devil appears to only have 3 clawed fingers and a thumb on his left hand, the forth finger must be holding the puppets head.

      “Oh the weather outside is foggy…”

    294. Breeks says:

      twathater says:
      23 December, 2018 at 5:27 pm

      …. even if we’re at the cliff edge we can still take the legal route and ask the EU for a holding pen status , be patient independinistas Nicola wants to go down in history as the freeer of SCOTLAND

      Thanks for that Twathater.
      I agree with what you say in reply, but with one caveat… Stepping back from the brink is fine in principle, but if our legal personality is not recognised beforehand, in the EU’s rule book, we should thoroughly anticipate that we will be seen no different in constitutional terms than Catalonia. The EU is the archetypal bureaucracy, a stickler for the rules, and Scotland’s autonomy, however legitimate, might still not exist until after a Courtroom says it does. If the game is one of brinkmanship, we must be positive of choosing the correct “brink”.

      What if our step back from the edge only secures disputed UK Sovereignty, and leaves Scotland short of sufficient autonomy to liaise with Europe directly? We have Catalonia revisited again. In 2016, the EU was quick to raise the prospect of holding pen status, but listen close, and both Juncker and Verhofstadt predicated the option with the emancipation Scotland’s Sovereignty.

      Our deadline is not 29th March. It is the 29th March less the time it takes to steer a Constitutional Test Case through the ECJ and secure Legal Personality. My nerves are content 95 days might be long enough, but the window of opportunity is closing fast. I believe the prospect of an IndyRef2 is already closed. There simply isn’t time or confidence in an electoral process so compromised by indoctrination.

      A failsafe requires planning and preparation before it’s moment of need. I don’t like brinkmanship. Neither does Europe. Just sayin…. Beware the ides of March aren’t actually the ides of February or January… or heaven help us December, or worse yet November…

    295. Cactus says:

      Satan’s Little Abstainer.

    296. Cactus says:

      Here we go Scotland and international neighbours:

      As you know, we own midnight. 😉

      Be grand!

    297. CameronB Brodie says:

      Did I say I was taking a break? Perhaps it’s the other way around? 🙂

      Is Brexit evil? That’s rather a redundant question, IMHO, given a large portion of the leave vote was driven by English/Tory opposition to immigration and multiculturalism. Tories don’t like Catholics much either and Anglican culture has always been a bit hostile to anything not English, frankly. Tories tend to be friendly with fascists and Zionists though, if not actual fascist Zionists themselves.

      Anglo-Saxon culture never fully recovered from Norman colonisation, IMHO. 1066 and all that. 😉

      Main Theoretical Perspectives
      Causes, Consequences and Critique


      ….As mentioned above, the concept of evil can be interpreted both instrumental and intentional, the first being the broadest of them. Here evil stands for behaviour and human deeds having terrifying or fatal consequences for subjects and people or in general, regardless of the intentions behind. The intentional interpretation however, links the concept to certain predispositions, characteristics and even strong motives in subjects, groups and sometimes political systems and nations. I will keep in mind and clear the way for both these perspectives for the discussion in prospect….

      PART I

      The psychoanalytic tradition stands as one of the most comprehensive approaches to the understanding of mankind and its conflicts within society. Its consequently search for hidden motives and psychic forces, concealed meanings and unconscious dynamics beneath the surface of human behaviour is outstanding, but also controversial. The Freudian theory has since Freud developed into different traditions and concepts, from “pure” instinct- or drive psychology2 to ego-psychology, object relations psychology, self-psychology and the latest tradition, inter-subjective theory or psychology. Rather than viewing these perspectives as competing, as however many theorists indeed have done, it seems to me that more benefit and success could be gained by understanding them as supplements rather as competitors. The impression is however that most theorists seem to recognize the overlapping and complimentary character of these different views. I will however point that the very fact that different positions within the psychoanalytic tradition itself have their basis in respectively instincts, drives, ego, object-relations or inter-subjectivity, leads to distinctive perspectives regarding evil, its origins, content and consequences….

      PART II

      Taking about a “social” dimension of evil, should at least involve two or more, however related scientific disciplines, like social psychology and sociology, but perhaps also including disciplines like anthropology and history. However, focusing on the social dimensions of evil, in my opinion does not exclude individual perspectives, like “inner” psychological forces, motives and conflicts dealt with in part I. Rather, the concept of this dissertation is precisely that of integrating several perspectives and dimensions into a more fully understanding of all psychological factor operating in the creating and maintenance of human evil. In my model or perspective, several psychological dimensions and factors simultaneous contribute creating the matter, in precisely the way that social and social psychological factor being dependent on subjective psychological elements and vice versa. Also add to this model the element or dimension of biology, parts of it being important for the creation of some significant psychological conditions and processes.27

      PART III

      In recent years biology again has been hot stuff regarding explanations of psychological and even social phenomena. However, biological explanations always run the risk of scientific reductionism, tending to be absolute and deterministic. In that perspective, biology becomes some sort of destination, leaving no room for alternatives and radical change. My point of view or position here, however, and I assume several other theorists’ as well, is a more flexible one, presupposing that biological factors and determinants interplay with others of a psychological and social kind.

      Biological and social perspectives and explanations, after all, perhaps don’t turn out that antagonistic to each other as it may seem. Remember the phenomena of xenophobia, prejudice, stereotypes and perceptual biases regarding our non-neutral and selective categorisation of people and groups discussed in the previous section. Significant studies suggest that these phenomena, all rough social in their manifestation, might be of a more inherently biological and constitutional kind, or at last containing or being dependent of certain biological determinants. Some may say that deep within our sub-conscious we harbour fundamental contingences for such biases, making them unavoidable at even a manifest level. Usually and consciously most of us don’t like to admit or perhaps being reminded that we somehow share attitudes associated with prejudices, hate and disgust against people and groups of another kind, perhaps specially members of certain ethnic groups….

      PART IV

      ….Psychology, biology and sociology/society/situational forces are operating at different levels and thus logically doesn’t have to conflict with each other for example regarding theories and explanations of human evil. When they do, this seems to stem from some certain position or idea of dualism, presupposing an either-or perspective, meaning the belief that psychology, biology or social and interactional forces may explain the matter, but not within various mutual combinations. This focus on operating combinations, however, is in my opinion crucial for a clear definition and fully definition of the question of evil itself. On the other hand, presupposing one determinate factor here seems to bring us into the trap of reductionism. Does this imply that for example individualistic perspectives being of a psychological or biological kind doesn’t count in understanding real evil? No! Rather, the whole point should be that every single factor or dimension is supposed to operate, but in different combinations with others, demanding an analysis along two levels: a real analysis of the case or matter in manifestation, in addition to an analysis of abstraction concerning the inner logic of each level or dimension. For example: suppose finding some personal and psychological deficit in subjects regarding their social function or interaction/communication with others, perhaps in small scale or just out of psychological test. Suppose we would label or diagnose this as a possible case of “psychopathy”94.

      Does that alone make the character “evil”? At least one has to make an examination or analysis under for example which social circumstances he or she is disposed to actually act in evil ways, for example under the command of certain authorities and in what way he/she in the situation given will differ from other subjects being the bearer of other personal qualities. Under these circumstances, to attain at an understanding or a concept of evil, one has to include at least two levels or dimensions: that of psychological (and perhaps also biological) personality and that of the social/societal situation. Concerning the social dimension, one also has to take into account the social act itself, its quality of badness, cruelty and the degree of harm which is inserted upon other innocents. This of cause again focuses on the personal and psychological dimensions and qualities. Who, given their personal characteristics, would inflict radical harm on innocents? Obviously, not everybody one should assume (and hope). After all, beating up or cheating innocent people contrasted with, say committing mass murder seems enormous. It also forces us to make certain assessments concerning motives behind different acts and kinds of behaviour. The motives for cheating and fighting could be radical different from those making one commit mass murder.

      In addition to the main dimensions dealt with, philosophical and normative matters should be included. This of cause also includes the matter of morality. Philosophy and related matters operate on abstract and reflexive terms, thus, in my opinion makes it an indispensable tool in analysing and clarification of human/social theoretical matters. However, there seems to exist some pitfalls here, namely making the philosophical comprehension total, meaning that the question of evil becomes solely dependent of some sort of a pure philosophical reflection. Not surprisingly, such theoretical constructions often conclude that evil itself does not exist, instead having its origin or foundations in theological and metaphysical speculations alone.95

    298. twathater says:

      @ Breeks 24th dec 7.55 am ,As I said up thread breeks I totally agree with what you say re the legal position and the EU mandarins , it may be false logic or blind faith but I sincerely hope that Nicola has attended to these details or has reassured the EU as to her direction of travel should the cliff edge be reached
      I would like to think the EU would relish giving treeza and co a bloody nose and let’s face it the only ones who don’t know of Scotland’s wealth of natural resources are the cringeing britnat proudscot buts, the EU will be aware of this wealth of resources and will only be too keen to keep access to them
      The anger , belittling and posturing by the establishment is to FORCE Nicola into a move , the money men backers desperately want brexshit to protect their tax hoard but they equally NEED to keep Scotland’s wealth and resources , that IMO is why they are running down the clock , they also cannot afford to make the wrong move

      Nicola Sturgeon is a politician breeks and like ANY politician she would give anything to go down in folklore and Scottish history taught in schools as the one who repatriated Scotland’s independence , that would mean more to her than any other accolade , make no mistake if she calls it wrong she will be berated and ostracised by the very people who love and respect her currently . I as a independence voter support her and respect her work and determination on our behalf , it has been a long personal arduous journey for her , sometimes coming at great cost , I really believe she is a very astute chess player ( hopefully ) and her patience and foresight will set us free , have faith brother

    299. Cactus says:

      Jumpin’ back to this previous Saturday Satan thread furrabit…

      Ahhh, that feels much better.

      Nice furniture D.

      NB Speaking of Satan, is there anybuddy else to go on the Celebrity Deathlist afore the end of this here year 2018…

    300. Cactus says:

      In an independent Scotland right NOW at 9pm, this would be the middle of our festive party SEASON. Once we WIN oor country back frae the cluthes of the UK Westminster evil/evel, that is.

      Bugger Brexit.

    301. Cactus says:

      Once you’ve WIN… ye’ve WON!

      Natural Scotland.

    302. Cactus says:

      All other countries in this here bonnie world have already WON their natural being.

      We’re the ones who’ve yet to WIN it.

      Scotland needs its iStatus.

      Once we’ve WON…

      We build.

    303. Cactus says:

      Here’s the helper…

      In a new Cairnstoon and wearing an earring or too…

      Corbyn could be a genuine evel pirate.

      Pieces of hate… arrrgh.

      Laugh at the Tories!

    304. Cactus says:

      This evening’s movie of the evenin’ is Moulin Rouge!

      Audio in Scottish wae the French subtitles.

      Aye need more blood, se-ven, ah ha ha 🙂

    305. Cactus says:

      Scotland’s story is about…

      – Truth
      – Beauty
      – Freedom

      But above all…

      – Love

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