Wings Over Scotland

Excellent piece Fiona.  Any ideas how I can persuade my other half to read it, all the way to the end; to join in the debate?  Because I’ve banged my head off too many brick walls.
 
Too often I’ve heard, from the female of the species, and indeed many a male – ‘politicians, they’re all the same’.  Generally it’s the caterwauling from PMQs that is the turn off when snippets appear on the news.
 
Perhaps I should try and get her to listen to the civilised tones of our own FMQs.  Oh, wait a minute, Johann in full rant.  Now that ain’t going to spark any interest, male or female.  Is there a girlie way into the debate?

This is an excellent article by Fiona and I would agree that there is hope of a more equal and fairer Scotland if only Scots would have the bottle to separate Scotland from the institutionally  privileged male WASPish dominated preserve that Westminster is.

I can’t say I have noticed a dearth of women on the pro side. In any political campaign there will be people from all walks of life and a variety of motivations. The Women For Independence group seem to be interested particularly in a written constitution that will enshrine equal rights and that seems a perfectly valid and laudable point of entry.
 
It is said women are less supportive of Alex than men and that Alex being linked (at every opportunity by the MSM) to the Yes campaign may be having an effect. However, there are a number of women in the SNP and Nicola looks set to take up the mantle of leader when Alex retires as he has intimated that he would like to do at some point after the 2016 election. This campaign is a good opportunity for Nicola to take a lead and for other women that may not specifically be linked to the SNP to be given some prominence. It is not a one man band no matter how much the papers try to pretend it is.

Excellent article Fiona.  It cannot be stressed enough the opportunities for equality in all areas regardless of gender, age, race or sexual preference rest with independnece. The potential for a joined up approach to welfare, health and representation I find exciting. I can’t imagine Westminster doing anything unless it is dragged screaming into doing anything and to be honest anything it does do tends to be half arsed at best.

Given the state of the country change is needed the status quo can’t continue.  Even folk who have not the time or inclination can see that?  Well maybe not.  All we can do is be signposts.

“Women often don’t engage in politics because they find it deathly dull and removed from the day to day realities of their lives. But also because to be an anorak, on any subject, requires time and head-space. And a lot of women don’t have much free time”.

On the other hand, if there is a raging fire heading toward you, it doesn’t require a lot of time to decide, I need to get out of here.

Bedroom tax, Trident missiles, foreign wars, children in poverty, bankers crisis, extreme wealth, mass spying on citizens, food banks, falling wages, rising costs. I would say this represents a raging fire, right here, right now.

A thoughtful piece from Fiona and more maybe helpful. Yes, I also have to agree that more women being ” involved” at ALL levels,would be no bad thing.
However, while she makes helpful ideas to further the participation in Holyrood  and perhaps politics in general, she throws no light on how to get women to vote YES now.
We need to convince women that a better future lies in a YES vote, that is no easy feat, as she indicates, women are generally preoccupied with the day to day necessities of life.
This makes it  difficult for  them to focus on what Independence means to them, their families and their future.
Yes women who are knowledgeable about the aims and benefits in regards to what we can do with Independence, and just what the Union means to that detriment, need to come forward and appeal to these undecided and get our positive vision across.
Lesley Riddoch is one that comes to mind, but more positive women need to be heard and loudly.
They will be a huge benefit towards a YES vote.

no difference between men and women at all. same fears and instincts. women and men will vote for their preference for mostly the same reasons

Male dominated politics seems to be about having rehearsed answers to all problems. Maybe women see through this bullshit better than men?
The link to the world Economic Forum gender gap report 2012 shows a clear declining trend in “Political Empowerment” for females in the UK.

Thank you Fiona for an insightful piece. I have also wondered how to engage female friends in the debate without being seen as ‘a bit weird, boring and non-feminine’.

I’ve had some good going discussions with male friends on the yes/no/maybe side, but women are much harder to engage. However, once there is a conversation, most move from no to don’t know, and from don’t know to yes.

As an administrator for a local YES Facebook group I have plenty of material to draw on, but when it comes to my own FB page, I feel the need to hold back on posting independence issues. It actually puts pressure on me to create some personal posts so that I can intersperse them with pro-indy links and articles.

But, I think you have hit the nail on the head with ‘the possibilities that independence may bring – and one of the aspects which excites me is that Scotland could become a more equal country in terms of the gender gap as well as wealth distribution, education, health and access to opportunities.’ 

I feel a post, with a link to this page, coming on…
 

If we truely live in an equal society (or at least strive to), then why the focus on woman’s voting intentions to a degree that there is even a “Women for independence” organisation.   Why not equally have a “Men for independence” group?   …It starts sounding silly doesn’t it! 

Well said Fiona, 
 
The guiding gender principle upon which a future Scottish should be built is that “we are all EQUALLY capable”.  
 
If that principle truly is the case then, as you say, the enormous  deficit in enabling woman to have an equal role and place in Scottish society – in what every way any particular woman chooses – needs to be addresses. But not, I’d argue, based on the fashionable idea of having it all.  
 
Let’s aspire to build a future Scottish society  based on equality of opportunity – for all – in all – walks of life.  People then choose – gender (and lots of other things) become irrelevant – we are all equally capable – not equally talented. We should build a society where all door of opportunity are open and the “means of entry” gender neutral. 
 
Agreed – only independence offers the seeds and means of enabling this vision into a reality. 
 

Peter: Probably due to them [women] being less intelligent.
 
Ironically, readers of your post, noting your gender, would reach the opposite conclusion.

Nice article Fiona.
I would like to know your thoughts on Johann Lamont and her constant self reference to ‘being a mother’ – is it an effective ploy on her part ? 
 

Really good piece Fiona, and timely after recent events.
 
Re Peter and his gender agenda, reasonable people accept that men and women have different attributes. ‘Intelligence’ as Peter frames it is categorically not determined by gender. The way people think is. Advertising is targeted more so at women because they tend to run household finances, have a greater perception of colour and beauty, and are more socially astute.  
It is these very attributes that are the key to engaging more women in the political debate.
 
Men tend to be more dogmatic and assertive in expression of beliefs which can be off putting, as demonstrated earlier in the thread …..

Agreed Paula, but lets be careful  not to ignore the tremendous  progress that has been made.   I work with Female Architects and women (including the top boss) hold many senior positions in the organisation I work for… and that is in construction,  traditionally a very male dominated profession.
.
It’s interesting that I personally link the old style male attitudes of “A woman’s place is in the home” with that of staunch unionism.  There seems to be much in common with the ‘harking to the past’ British Empire mindset and the discrimination of woman…,  it is often the case that certain old dinosaurs (often called Lord something or other) expose their position on both these things.   Independence on the other hand is about the future and change for the better…. something you would think would have woman overwhelmingly in support of. 

Excellent article Fiona, the only thing I could add is the confrontational nature of politics and its portrayal on TV. It comes across as a bear pit when seen on prime time TV notably FMQ’s and PMQ’s but the rarely seen debates are much more sedate. It not that appealing environment for women who (feel free to correct me if I’m wrong) are less likely to be confrontation unless in involves their children. I do so hope the gender balance is addressed and a more consensus based Scottish Parliament in an independent Scotland (fat chance with SLAB in its present form).

a very helpful article, thoughtful and thought provoking.

 As with most things in life, generalisations aren’t particularly helpful, but I think some Scotswomen are almost embarrassed to engage in political discussions or activity and perhaps that is in part because  many of the women who have been in the frontline  recently have been memorable or influential for the wrong reasons.

Thatcher set a tangible female breakthrough in politics back by decades. Harriet Harman could have been a reasonable role model were she not so patronising. I cannot bear to analyse the impact Margaret Curran and Johann Lamont have on any woman who might actually listen to or read anything they come out with,and don’t get me started on Jackie Baillie, So in a sense certain women who have been able to make inroads seem to have switched women off politics at the very time when women should have become more engaged and vocal.

That effect may leave strong , honest and capable female politicians  with an uphill struggle in persuading some women to participate , listen to and become involved in the debate. So, some women have been women’s own worst enemies. Just a thought. I don’t pretend to have the answers other than to say that we need to see and broadcast more of the sturdy and forthright performances from Nicola Sturgeon, Margo MacDonald, Lesley Riddoch, Ruth Wishart and all the other capable women in the YES! campaign.

I have been married for 36 years and raised two daughters and therefore can claim that although I understood very little about women when I was young and single, I now understand nothing.
 
However I have observed that the difference in quality of Scottish female politicians from either side of the independence fence is even more marked than in the case of the men.
 
Compare Nicola Sturgeon, Christine Graham, Winnie Ewing, Rosie Cunningham with Johann Lamont, Margaret Curran, Jackie Baillie, Ruth Davidson.
 
Perhaps that is a message which might prove fruitful?

As a generalisation I would say that women ‘get’ the environment/sustainability agenda more than men who seem to think that the world’s resources are either endless or they’ll be dead when the worst happens – I worry about the generations to come.

That hit all the correct notes, I think. Thanks Fiona.

Well done, Fiona, and thanks for taking the time to write this article.  I use the phrase “taking the time” quite deliberately though as I think it’s particularly relevant to the issue of women’s involvement in the referendum.
 
I’ve always wanted independence, but until I was lucky enough to get early retirement, I would never have had the time to be a part of the campaign.  Professional, domestic and family obligations would have used up most of the time I had – I didn’t even have much time for leisure activities.  I got most of my news from the Herald or the BBC (tv and Radio 4, sometimes Radio Scotland).  It didn’t actually affect my voting pattern because I was already firm in my view that Scotland’s people need independence.  In short, I wasn’t an “undecided”.  I was, however, very busy.
 
 Now that I’ve stopped working, I’m still very busy – but I’m no longer constantly in a hurry.  And this is what I’m noticing in my female friends and family who have jobs – they’re always in a hurry.  Sometimes they’re really in a hurry because they genuinely have a lot to do and sometimes they’re just full of adrenaline from telling themselves that certain things “need to” get done, but in actuality, could be put off.  They are often exhausted, don’t sleep well and can’t switch off.  It’s not that they’re not interested in politics or the referendum, it’s just that their heads are elsewhere and there’s no room to cram anything else in.
 
I’ve also noticed when trying to engage women to sign up for the Yes campaign, they’re often in too much of a hurry to stop and talk.  Sometimes, when one does actually stop, it’s often with a sense of relief to get off the treadmill for 5 minutes.  And in general, when my female friends and family do have a spare moment to sit down and have a conversation, they’re trying to wind down and don’t have the energy to engage in a conversation about politics.
 
I do agree they’re uninformed but it’s not because they’re apathetic or uninterested, it’s because they’re either too exhausted and in too much of a hurry most of the time to find things out for themselves.
 
And I’d also echo Fiona’s point about politics and geekiness.  I know I keep harping on about this, but we do need to do more to cope with the geekiness factor and one way is to produce merchandise that women will be happy to wear.  A simple pair of earrings would be enough to get a conversation started that might otherwise never happen.
 

Aye, it was Thatcher who woke me from my political slumbers too. She almost certainly did more to help the rise of the independence cause than anyone or anything else.
As to women in Scottish politics, I think they’re performing really well and I’d like to see more of them. Lesley Riddoch and Margo MacDonald are  superb, and for the SNP, members  who impress me most consistently in tv interviews or debates  are Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon, Christine Grahame, Linda Fabiani and Alex Neil. God knows where we got Curran and Lamont from.
 

Two things –
 
When you use the term “intelligence”, you open up an academic hornet’s nest in terms of definition.
 
We could definitely do with more public appearances from capable women like Lesley Riddoch, Elaine C. Smith, etc……it would help “normalise” the issue of independence for many women.  Although I’ve seen female politicians like the brilliant Nicola Surgeon and bloggers such as Natalie McGarry, Caroline Leckie  etc. on tv, I don’t think they are having the “normalising” effect that some better-known women could have.  Female politicians come across as “different”.  The exception I’d make to this rule is Margo MacDonald – I think she comes across well to women in general.
 

I enjoyed Fiona’s article very much.
Jeannie your comment at 1:06 is the one I relate to most as this has been exactly my experience of trying to engage with female friends. I also sometimes feel a little guilty at the time spent following and contributing in a in my very small way to the ongoing debate.
My middle son recently commented on my hugely increased internet activity saying:
“Mum if you were being paid for this we’d be rich” … out of the mouths of babes.

Great article Fiona. Trying to get female friends talking and interested is a real problem.  But, that said, I do find even though they’re quiet and don’t talk much about it, most of my female friends are queitly yes or becoming yes. Which makes the polls a bit odd to me. I can only assume the huge numbers not engaged are still knee-jerk no voters.
 
Regarding the Alex Samond thing, I will openly admit to being a bit of an Alex fan. I became one after the Leveson thing. I hadn’t been tuned into politics at all, only getting into it last year with the independence debate, so my knowledge of politicians was restricted to the media. The constant bashing of Salmond in the run up to Leveson was beginning to make me think he might be the same as the rest of them and beginning to put me off – as it was intended to do; it was a political smear.
 
However I did watch Leveson carefully and saw the shameful appearances of people like Jeremy Hunt and others. All the time the Scottish press and politicians were knocking Salmond, hinting he’d have a hard time. I watched his entire performance and there was nothing. Nothing at all. He didn’t “forget” anything, came across as straight up and was quite amusing. I’ve since seen him a lot more at conferences, speeches and in a variety of debates – ond and new, because yes I am a female geek with too much time on my hands now 🙂
 
I think a lot of people, both male and female, dislike him purely because of what they read in the press. Those of us who’re pro-indy need to start sticking up for him a bit more, I think, and not just doing the media’s job for them by trying to “sideline because the wee women don’t like him”. He’s the only major politician who has reamined utterly consistent (more or less) in his beliefs and arguments and stuck with what he believed rather than sold out or gone for what looks popular at the time.

Ditto Cath
 
I admired Mr Salmond’s ability for a good while, but actually warmed to the fella over a couple of big issues, one of which was the Leveson inquiry. I think a lot of the Salmond thing though is purely media generated. If you ask someone why they don’t like Alex Salmond it is no answer at all as in: ‘Ah jist don’t’. Or the answer comes back as party sound bite du jour compliments of the usual suspects. But basically no cogent original thought arrived at by either personal experience or reasoned research. The media sound bite does have an effect, but the man is smart enough to use this to his advantage.
 
Mrs Macart has always been way ahead of me politically though and was dead set independence even before me and I’ve been indy positive for thirty odd years. 🙂

Just randomly looking through Lesley Riddoch’s new book Blossom. interesting details on all the various research about women and independence.
She cites Fiona Mckay, Professor of Politics at Edinburgh ….
‘Women may also more willing to admit they don’t know and men more likely to overestimate their own competence.’
And that the 2011 Social Attitudes Survey showed 23% of men as ‘heart’ supporters against 10% of women.
For me it’s slow burn but I think women, who fall into the above categories, will come around. A large percentage probably would have voted devo-max or equivalent, but come the day, voting NO, I doubt it.
 

o/t
If you want to see the Cheviot, the Stag and Black Black Oil click the link:
good play mixed with interviews in 1974 with locals :

@Albalha
 
I agree….slow burn.  I think once women can see what’s in it for them and their families, they’ll vote Yes.  But that’s not to say they won’t be attracted to the bigger picture issues such as civil rights, equality issues, the constitution, etc.  It’s more about demonstrating what that boils down to for the people you care about.

Thanks for all the kind words. I normally just lurk on this site and try to read everything posted but I think I will try to post more comments from now on 🙂
 
On the Alex Salmond thing – it interests me, because I know women are supposed to dislike him (is that true? is his personal rating worse with women?). I have always really liked the way he comes across. He is a bit of a smart arse which I don’t mind because he can back it up with substance, and I like his humour. He’s well-read, knows his history, is consistent, and obviously has massive talent. Andrew Marr said that he thought of him as a political genius (for some reason that quote was not widely reported the other week) and I agree. The ironic thing about all the dictator comparisons is that he has spent his entire political career in the SNP, for goodness’ sake. He can’t be that power mad…
 
I don’t think I have heard any female acquaintances speak positively about him. In fact most despise him. The way he s portrayed in the media I’m frankly not surprised. Throw that much mud and some of it will stick.
 
My mum is an SNP councillor and she dislikes him. She is very firmly of the opinion that Nicola Sturgeon needs to come to the fore to capture the female vote.

Well said Jeannie. Like you, I have more time for active politics being older and also self-employed now (though I did find time to trek back and forth across the Skye Bridge, children in tow, and to Dingwall Sheriff Court during the tolls campaign). Social media has played a big part in this, as it’s easier to find like minded voices, and you can fit it into those spare minutes.

I especially agree with the need to develop appropriate merchandise. Earrings would be great, and how about some black t-shirts/polo shirts? White Yes logo t-shirts are not the most flattering clothes item for the majority of those I’ve seen, male or female…!
 

@isleofskye
 
Don’t start me on the t-shirts!  I really wish I knew how to sew – I’d design my own or even a loose-fitting top, maybe A-shaped, short at the front, longer at the back kind of thing with a discreet Yes or maybe a saltire, in different colours or in quilting material – just something different that you could wear when you’re not going to a rally.  And I’d love a wee saltire or Yes charm for a bracelet.  Something I could wear that’s personal to me that I could wear every day for my own enjoyment.  And it IS hard to open up a conversation about independence if you’re with non-political friends, but maybe a wee bit discreet jewellery would just give us that opener – “what’s that you’re wearing?” or “where did you get that?”  There’s definitely a market here for any artistic types – especially in time for Christmas.

Jeanie said
“I think that’s why the Labour Party and Better Together try to capitalise so much on concepts such as “the pensioner in Liverpool will suffer if you vote for independence and thereby condemn them to a lifetime of Tory rule” or insisting that voting for independence is selfish.  It’s designed to make you feel guilty, therefore anxious and therefore to vote No.  They’re a cynical bunch and obviously know how to press women’s buttons.”
For me this is one of the biggest obstacles to Independence it’s really the only argument in their armoury, as the others have been more or less debunked.
As someone who should now be a natural Tory voter my scottish commom weal kicks in and my voting intentions have always been-
1. Keep the Tories out.
2. Vote for the whoever has best policies to help the most disadvantaged in society.
Living in England this has been immensely difficult of late with very little choice i’m down to voting Green Party.
I should say as a person of the male gender (I have some redeeming attributes, a former summer house husband) its heartening to see so many ladies commenting on this site.

@Jeannie
And under a tenner, none of this £45 + all for prestige nonsense! link to shop.yesscotland.net

@isleofskye
Exactly!  Maybe at the rally next month some enterprising type will come up with the goods.  I’ll be sure to bring some cash in my Wings over Scotland bag.

I think an independent Scotland with at woman at the helm, would be a good idea, and a step in the right direction toward equality.
 
Just as long as it isnt Johann Lamont, or Ruth Davidson, which would be one step forward and two steps back, viva the fairer sex..lol.

Well written piece Fiona 🙂

The biggest problem and we all know this is media manipulaton.  I did my dissertation on the media as I have for many years recognised the blatant sensationalisation of stories.  the media do not tell you the story because they weren’t there, they report their take of the story.

When it comes to woman and the media, the media observe woman on how they look even Theresa May wasn’t immune when all they could talk about was her kitten heeled shoes!  This happens to most high profile woman in the media – their looks get mentioned rather than what they say.

Final word to Peter – Sex sells isn’t that what they say, one of the reasons that scantily dressed woman are draped over luxury cars to entice silly men like you.

I’ve spoken to plenty of people of both genders about independence, and from what I’ve gathered, the whole “women aren’t for indy” crap is just that – crap. More women than men I know are pro-independence, and I know a hell of a lot more women than I do men.

Some points to note.
 
The ‘men are more for independence than women’ assumption comes from polls which do show a greater % of men saying ‘Yes’ with a greater % of women saying ‘No’ or ‘don’t know’ to the straight indy question.
 
The doesn’t actually mean that men are more supportive of independence. We have to make the assumption that people are telling the truth.
 
People tell porkies in polls all the time. They say they plan to vote Labour when they plant to vote Tory. Take for example just after the 1997 general election landslide for Labour. It was the done thing to vote Labour at that time so Labour were polling 60% even though they only got 43% in the election. Lots of people who didn’t vote Labour were saying they did / they supported Labour. They were lying.
 
You see this in Scottish polls, particularly face to face and telephone where there is little or no sense of anonymity. Take MORI; it had a ‘new Labour’ effect for the SNP just after the landslide with them peaking at 51%. So a good 6% were suddenly SNP voters simply because that was the ‘right’ thing to be at that moment.
 
The indy vote has a large ‘shy component’. It’s impossible to prove and calculate exactly, but you can see it in data and there just doesn’t appear to be any other explanation for it. People are saying No when, under different circumstances they say Yes.
 
Now I don’t believe this accounts completely for the male-female difference in VI, but I suspect the ‘shy factor’ is higher in women. Men tend to be far more forthright in what they vote and why. Women tend to be more reticent and see this as private. My wife certainly finds this in her group of friends; nobody seems to want to touch the subject when they’re in a group. Only when she’s alone with one friend and things are more ‘private’ does the subject tentatively pop up sometimes. 
 
I contrast, men are more likely to say ‘Aye, I’m voting Yes’ quite openly. Certainly in my experience.
 
Worth considering anyway.

@Rev 
 
re Johann and Ruth – it was funny – when I was writing it, I completely forgot about both of them. Then I went back and added in a reference, thought it was only fair. Invisible/ineffective about sums it up.
 
tartanfever asked about Johann and the “as a mother” line that she peddles. I don’t think this will wash with most women. I think a likely response is “so what?” I can see what she is trying to do, but it’s so phoney and patronising. Another example of ScotLab treating the electorate as dimwits.
 

scottish_skier – yep I agree about the shy factor. I have some friends who are pro yes but never talk about it.  In each case I’ve had maybe one clipped conversation and then it was almost like “right, we’ve got that out of the way, now thank goodness we need never mention it again” 
 
In my experience this is a factor with both men and women but perhaps more so with women.
 
Once I was at an event with various stalls and my husband was manning the Yes stall.  I got talking to two female friends who both turned out to be pro-independence.  I didn’t know, and they didn’t know I was either. We never talk politics. They both went over to the stall, chatted to my husband and signed the declaration at separate junctures during the morning and afterwards one said to the other “I wasn’t going to sign, but then I saw your name so I just went for it”
 
There was no doubt about her conviction as a yes voter. When she got talking she was almost more rabid than me 😀 but still her instinct was not to make a visible declaration.
 
This links in to the importance of normalising support for independence. I firmly believe there will be a tipping point in this regard sometime in the next few months and I can’t wait.

@Juteman
 
Out of curiosity, what are they saying about the referendum?

Note on the subject of ‘Normalising’ independence.
 
I can understand that making people open to discussing the issue would be a good thing, certainly no harm for Yes at all.
 
However, it might have a lot less influence than people think. Demonising a particular political view doesn’t stop people voting that way. If people have decided they like the idea of something, they’ll vote for it no matter how much they’re told by the MSM not to. What they won’t do though, is admit it.
 
The 1992 general election was a classic. Labour thought they were shoe-in because the polls had them on for a good victory. Instead they lost quite badly because although the Tories were being hammered as the nasty poll tax party in the press, causing people to not admit supporting them, these people still went out and voted Tory.
 
Same applies for the SNP who have been accused of everything under the sun yet still poll landslide numbers right how (likely to be even higher but with shy SNP factor).
 
Then there’s UKIP. The smearing of them up to the English local elections really worked didn’t it.? Did considerably better than polls predicted too.
 
Normalising would allow better discussion with DKs. However demonising Yes won’t change entrenched views, it just makes Yes people quiet.
 
In that sense the demonising of Yes by No is a really stupid thing to do as it means they can appear to be doing much better than they actually are in e.g. polls.
 
Of course they are finding out the truth when trying to set up a grassroots campaign… speaking to people on the streets and doorsteps…
 
The polls suggest a ‘silent majority’ should exist for No yet it doesn’t. That’s because it’s more Yes people being silent.

Oh and I should note that ‘fairly solid No’ is at best just over 1/3.
 
You see it in the tables for panelbase Y/N and Rev’s roundabout question.
 
It’s also in MORI but due to methodology and their way of presenting, it’s lost. However, the ‘confusing’ summary from them recently was correct; in telephone (biased towards No), definite No is coming in at only 36%. 44% are yet to finally / definitely decide and don’t love the union. The rest are solid Yes.
 
This is why No are bricking it. 1/3 is the best they can get on a good day when you account for likely turnout.

Wow, I had no idea there were so few women accessing info online!  It is my main source of any and all info on everything.  I am presuming my email address makes my gender obvious, even if my names is androgynous.  I also assumed that most women are engaged by the referendum “debate”, even if it is conducted almost exclusively on Project Fear’s terms, proffeing almost only their version of facts.
 
Hope we are not really such a small group.

If Yes can get 1/3 of the electorate out and voting Yes, they’ll likely win. If they can get more out, they will win.

@s_s
 
thanks, all v interesting. God yes the 1992 election. Nightmare. 

@Jeannie 
I’d concur with what your wife is saying – women tend not to discuss the referendum in a group – possibly because they don’t want to be the odd one out and risk disapproval because women, rather than have an argument about something, often express social disapproval by excluding the person who’s not “on message”.  So within a group, they will tend to voice the dominant group view – an example of “group polarisation effect”.  Of course, privately, they may well think the opposite. 
 
I’m so glad I’m not the only one who sees this. Thanks Fiona for a great article, and I second the call for some reasonably priced jewellery, I was reduced to buying a Yes lapel pin but they always fall off my coats so I’d much rather a pair of earrings.

@juteman
I’ve found that my teaching and nursing frends don’t always grasp the difference between UK and Scottish Government influences, thanks to obfuscation by the mainstream media. Council worker friends see budgets being squeezed, and blame the SNP, rather than question the reasons behind it.

The best comeback is Blair Jenkins question as to whether you would vote to become part of the UK if Scotland were already independent. That always elicits a lightbulb moment, even if it’s only ‘I’ll need to think about that’. Then you can direct them to Wings and Newsnet!

Great article and lots of astute comments too.
We had a YES stall at MOKFEST in Campbeltown today and I am really upbeat about the referendum due to all the positive views expressed. Compared to a year ago many, many more are YES or thinking about which way they’ll vote. 
Also heartened by womens attitudes and young people signing declaration and proud to say they will vote yes. 
So all-in-all I am even more confidant about a good result next year.

@mogabee
That’s really good to hear.  Were most of the people from the area or were there a lot of visitors from further afield, since it was a music festival?
PS:  love the beach at Southend

@s_s
 
…. God yes the 1992 election. Nightmare.
 
And another possibility for 2015 if Scotland stays.
 
The Tories should do better than they’re polling right now. Labour should do considerably worse.
 
Either way, probability (and historical precedent) says the Tories will be the largest party. 
 
Hence the Tories gearing up for another potential coalition with the libs. Which is no different from a Tory majority.

@ss
‘’ll stand by this unless I see something that tells me I’m totally wrong in polling data. I’ve yet to see that.’
 
Then you’ll get a job as the BBCs phesologist.

Jeannie
It was the music festival…Lots of tourists, just not so many visitors to the stall!

I think we need to be careful about suggesting that AS should step aside for NS.
One of the reasons the MSM try so hard to discredit him is because he is so competent. He seems to cope well with all the flack and NS would have to take on the same level of abuse if she did take over.
I would hope the best way to deal with the I don’t like AS because ……….. supply from a list of reasons…. -would be to ask them to explain why.
The daftest one I heard by a country mile was from a life long Labour voter -because he looks like a wee free?!!!!
A yes voter I know says when he hears this he asks – who do you trust most to look after your affairs AS or DC? He says it usually at least gets them thinking.

Read Jen;’s contribution at  1.49 and it rang several bells. I’ve worked with and among women in a very varied set of situations for most of my life. I’ve always had very warm relationships with the vast majority of them but what I have observed is that a intelligent,active and constructive woman will always meet more aggression, obstruction and competition from other women in her space and in her age group than she will meet from any male.
In one CA in which I was convener we had three very able, very ambitious and very constructive women. You could have fried eggs at CA meetings in the super charged atmosphere at our meetings  

Sorry, coming into this topic a bit late. I don’t think that the SNP have any claim to monopoly on female political talent. Jenny Marra and Kesia Dugdale who got elected almost by the accident of SNP success due to the Holyrood voting system have shown by their energy and interest in taking on actual political problems e.g. payday loan companies, a great example of gaining credibility by campaigning. Compare and contrast the ‘ability’ of Bill Walker also elected by the accident of SNP success.
On  the other hand how do Johann Lamont and Davidson justify their positions when they are in the position of ‘leader’ only because ‘Alex Salmond has a problem in dealing with women’. Are they not both fatally undermined in their positions because in whole or in part they owe their promotions not to ability but gender politics. 

“The polls suggest a ‘silent majority’ should exist for No yet it doesn’t. That’s because it’s more Yes people being silent.”
 
Yes SS – it always makes me laugh when I see Better Together types talk about “the silent majority” of pro-union people. The entire media, all 3 Westminster political parties, the British establishment are all pro-union and are extremely vocal about it, including denigrating and smearing those who vote Yes, calling anyone who dares express a pro-indy opinion a “cybernat” and even denigrating those who call for devo-max as “SNP fronts” – Henry McLeish most recently, Martin Sime of SCVO prevoiusly. They also issue threats and try to make sure pro-indy people aren’t able to work – Martin Compton being targetted before and Bulmer more recently criticised for the crime of charging a small fee for writing an article.
 
Why the hell would they imagine the unionists are the “silent” ones? Their entire campaign revolves around making sure it’s the Yes people who stay silent. I’m sure that will fail, next year. But right now, the grassroots campaign figures speak for themselves. Better Together can only manage the odd “weekend” when they can bring people up from Westminster to man stalls. Yes is everywhere.

Hi Fiona,
Thanks for the article. A great read and a brilliant catalyst for so many others’ interesting posts.
 
My feelings are that both women and men will come to their conclusion over YES or NO for basically the same numerous and varied reasons. They will both use the best and most reliable info available to them at the time of the vote (when the decision is forced on them).
 
We are over a year out from the vote, so to the normal non political punter who is honest, undecided is probably the most reasonable position to find yourself in. Until, that is, they feel they have enough reliable info to make their decision. A decision that in my experience is openly acknowledged to be one of the most important political decisions they will ever be asked to adjudicate on, so folk will take it seriously.
 
 
Unfortunately this reality has been used by The British Nationalist Establishment for decades as a (not so tacit), support for NO in any referendum. Happily conflating the figures for No and Don’t know to achieve their confidence boosting/sapping 60-70% ‘NO’ majorities. 
 
Something this reality is not and has never been, but repetion by all MSM and Broadcasters over the years has had it’s psychological affect, ably explained by Scottish Skier as ‘the shy effect’.
 
It’s been so effective in fact, that both sides now actually believe it. That’s why even the folk at the SNP who had access to their own private polling couldn’t (or wouldn’t) actually truly believe in their 2011 landslide before it happened. In comparison, Blair’s 97 landslide was known about and more importantly believed in, at least two years before that election finally took place. It was no surprise!
 
The difference between the female and male YES/NO/Don’t Know at the moment seems to me to be simply down to the different timings of when the sexes access the information they need to come to a decision.
 
So as long as everyone comes to their decision in time for the vote, which those that vote will (regardless of sex), and we in the YES campaign all work our backsides off getting the information out there to them, then I believe a YES vote from both sexes is inevitable. (Barring some unforseeable massive external event of course)
 
The arguments for an Independent Scotland are unanswerable and have no gender.

mogabee
 
Was visiting the YES stall at Bute Highland Games today in Rothesay. Same warm welcome and no aggresive nagativity even from the non committal.

@Morag-
 
‘…it depends on where you are.’
 
Agreed. The streetwork I’ve been involved with has been in Irvine or Ayr, the former pretty solidly Labour, the latter a rare Tory stronghold, so I’m guessing (hoping?) that the aggregate is a pretty close mirror of the ‘typical’ voter, or as close to that creature as anyone could reasonably be expected to find.
 
Dunno – maybe it’s just wishful thinking on my part, but one thing’s for sure: Labour in Scotland is in its death-throes, and the anecdotal stuff I’ve been hearing from folk (who, like yourself, have been active for decades, and are on  first-name terms with some of their staunchest opponents) is damning – Lamont is a hopeless case taking orders from stuffed shirts in London who can’t see beyond whatever’s happening in Millbank; the personal attacks on AS/SNP are embarrassing and counter-productive; the demonisation of LFI has the potential to shatter the Labour movement in Scotland once and for good, etc etc.
 
From a selfish SSP point of view, it’s all great, because we’re picking up new members who simply can’t stomach the abuse they’d get from Labour ‘comrades’ who’ve circled the wagons – it’s really hard, for ordinary, disengaged punters, to understand how powerful a force Labour tribalism is in these parts. It’s easier for these people to leave the party altogether rather than be subjected to the ‘fifth-columnist’ shite.
 
I’m not doing a McDougall here, bluffing that it’s all going our way – maybe you just get to an age where you can look someone in the eye and know if they’re bullshitting you or not. Gut-feeling an aw that. 
 

@ianbrotherhood
 
One thing I found interesting recently was the admission by the NO camp (can’t remember where now – most recent poll, I think) recently that solidly working class areas were a majority pro-yes. Those are also the solidly Labour areas.

Ianbrotherhood,
thanks min. 
I just thought to myself……now how would Peter A Bell put it?

Rev-
 
In a tweet, perhaps early today, you issued a wee reminder that you’re always open to contributions i.e. articles etc.
 
I’ve asked this before  (and didn’t get much of a response) but are there any lawyers following WoS who could knock-up a definitive Q & A regarding non-payment of the wretched BBC Licence Fee?
 
There’s still so much confusion about this, and it’s a perfect metaphor for the whole No Scotland/Project Feart campaign – if only people had the facts, it’d be so much easier to make that big decision and simply stop paying the fecking thing. No illegality is involved – a minor lifestyle change is all that’s required, and the benefits are something which could be separately covered by people who’ve gone ahead and done it.
 
Any legal ‘lurkers’ up for it?  Help us oot, eh?!
 
We could take our unrenewed licenses along to Calton Hill on Sep 21st and burn them (in a strictly-controlled area, with due regard to Health & Safety etc etc).

@Linda’s back-
 
Cheers.
 
Aye, the type of stuff I’m on about is in the comments (800+?!) following that article, but we need someone to distill it all, preferably in a way that would lend itself to an announcement on Sep 21st.
 
This all ties-in with the subject of this thread – the people responsible for paying the Licence Fee in most households are, I daresay, women. If they’re to disregard the obnoxious threatening letters, advertising campaigns etc, they need solid fact-based advice.   

Remembering that in Scotland you cannot go to prison for debt, even if you don’t or can’t pay for the tv license, but you can in England.  However, you can be locked up for non payment of fines in bonny Scotland, so if you don’t pay your license…pay your fine…or cut your aerial in half so it has no signal at all, bliss.
 

I see Jeane Freeman of WFI has done a Kate Higgins. 
 
link to scotsman.com
 
I think there 45 minute nationalists in our ranks. They have declared their loyalty to the team, kissed the badge, now at half time they have been discovered betting against their own side. We should give these people free transfer, they can go and play for the unionists because it looks like that is all they have ever done.

@ gillie
 
Oh, how I wish I hadn’t followed your link.

I thought this recent article in the English language Norway Post might be of interest –
Women’s rights – Norway at the forefront 
22 Aug 2013
link to norwaypost.no 

Gillie – your tinfoil hat is showing. 
 
By all means disagree with those on the Yes side who hold a different view. I certainly don’t agree with Jeane Freeman here. But please don’t jump to the lazy conclusion that they must be infiltrators. Baseless accusations like that make you no better than those on the other side trying to smear LFI members. 

Susan Stewart was central to a BBC Scotland deflection story that strongly suggested that Scottish-American relationships had been badly damaged Megrahi’ s release. This was at the same time that Gordon Brown met Gadaffi in 2009.
 
Susan Stewart left YES Scotland in July in what was headlined as being under difficult circumstances in getting the campaign’s message out to people.
 

It seems Jeane Freeman takes great umbrage over rejection of her partner Susan Stewart.
 
link to scotsman.com

O/T. Rev, any chance of enlightening us on how to get by the paywall of the newspapers?