Please do not waste this time
So Theresa May has handed in her notice. She will formally resign as Conservative Party leader on June 7, triggering a leadership election which will be concluded by “the end of July”, until which time she’ll continue as a powerless lame-duck caretaker PM.
Let’s just recap that timetable.
Today is the 24th of May. The deadline for Brexit is 31 October. At the moment – quite extraordinarily – there have been no dates set for Parliament sitting for the rest of this year (we just rang them up to check and they had no idea), but normally there’s a six-week summer break, a couple of weeks back and then another break of several weeks for all the parties to hold their autumn conferences.
(The Lib Dems are having theirs from 14-17 September this year, Labour’s is 21-25 September, the Tories 20 Sep-2 Oct.)
So that means we’re probably looking at:
JUNE: effectively no Prime Minister.
JULY: no Prime Minister. Parliament rises for summer recess.
AUGUST: Parliament on holiday.
SEPTEMBER: end of summer recess, then party conference recess.
OCTOBER: Brexit.
So there are basically four weeks left. This can only go well.
Could we fit a GE in October into this schedule?
Watching that Cretin of a thing bubbling away and one thought prevailed: ma heart pumps pish for ye Hen.
We are coming to end of May. Worst PM I have ever known after living through 14 of them and some of them were bad. Such a cruel government presided by someone totally unsuited to the role.
An English matter, effectively no change, press DELETE.
Yep, you nailed it!
Of course, from now on, in the media it will be wall to wall Conservative Party leadership with heavy helping of BORISMANIA.
Never shift a cloot till May is oot,(braham seer ?)
May is now oot it is time to shift the cloot of Westminster,
a proverb and a prophesy.
Getting rid of Theresa May doesn’t address any of the real issues that face Tory party / UK.
Brexit always meant either…
1) EEA (UK allows free movement / tory party split)
2) Customs Union (UK cant sign own trade deals).
3) No deal
Get your popcorn out. There is no way out of the mess Tories created. Brexit is a fantasy. Brexiters now expect unicorns and going to be very angry when the politicians fail to deliver.
SNP: We will wait till we see how Brexit pans out.
Overtaken by events, Boris Johnson will be the next PM of the UK.
What more is there to wait for?
Please do not waste this time, indeed, FM.
If Boris wins he doesn’t have to do anything but wait out the time and it’s no deal Brexit, Boom!
NEXT!!!
She managed to pile a few downright lies into that, including we have reduced the national debt.
I bet the Grenfell survivors, the disabled and the Windrush generation are slso in tears.
Conscious cruelty.
I hate them.
for the record I would like to post , below , in brackets all the kind words I have for her
( )
Please not Boris or we are doomed forever!
Just back from the doctors, 4 steroid injections later, enhanced pain expected for next few hours…. But boy am i laughin my head off right now… “Strong & Stable” – She has got to be the most care free cretinous creature with a pulse on this entire universe… But aye what a mess, and aye let’s just waste all the time in the world in order to gratify the existence of the Tory party…. Jeezo… Well done to the Scottish Labour branch office… Big and slow hand clap to all involved, you done your country proud…. NOT
Ding dong, the Treez is dead.
Johnson will ne crowned Emperor of Empire 2 by the end of June.
Nothing from Rees Mogg or Stephen Barclay today.
Leadsom Gove Middle Britain Rory and Raab will have been told already: yer tea’s up.
The Tories want and think they need a Farage with a dyed blonde mop, and Esther McVey is unfortunately yet another wummin, so no chance.
Boris Superbus Imperator Britanniae will go ‘all in’before the summer recess and threaten a No Deal Exit in August if the Irish Back stop is not removed from the WA.
So No Deal for Engerland in time for the Summer Hols.
Donald and Boris, Bordonlino?
A match mad in Moscow.
Corbyn calling for immediate GE !!
So, he want to hold a GE when the tories have no leader, but if the tories still win, he will demand the new PM when annointed, faces the public in a GE!
If bumbling boris is PM in the next GE, the tories may do badly in Scotland, but i firmly expect them to sweep labour aside in England and win a majority fairly easily.
If labour had any sense, they would ditch Corbyn while the tories are in dissarray.
Corbyn will never win a GE.
What a total shit show this is.
There is something innately missing from the soul of those who choose to be Tories. Listening to May speak about
compromise and bringing the Kindertransport in to her statement made me want to puke.
Now all we need is for McVey to throw her hat in the ring.
Lets see what Nicola Sturgeon does now.
@james caithness.
What do you think she should do now ?
Boris Johnson to follow?
link to twitter.com
“What a hypocrite”
Those whom the Gods wish to destroy they first make mad.
Anonymous ancient proverb, wrongly attributed to Euripides. The version here is quoted as a “heathen proverb” in Daniel, a Model for Young Men (1854) by William Anderson Scott. The origin of the misattribution to Euripides is unknown.
I
I watched her speech. A lot of high-minded and noble but utterly empty rhetoric. I almost laughed when she said they were ending austerity. Tories are so disingenuous it defies belief. They literally say one thing and do the opposite. But people fall for it time and time again either through stupidity or malice.
We need to get the hell out of this vortex before it consumes us.
CmonIndy says:
24 May, 2019 at 11:50 am
She managed to pile a few downright lies into that, including we have reduced the national debt.
=========================================
Her not understanding the difference between reducing the rate of increase in the national debt and reducing the total national debt makes you wonder how she ever got to PM. Just as well she was never Chancellor!
When the waterworks started, I almost pished myself. I had tears in my eyes too, as Ribena came out my nose.
Still wondering where the Ribena came from…
This country that she loves would bring tears tae gless eye.
Euripides you mend ’em.
Tears tae A gless eye.
Indy Ref 2 – September 2019. 4 month campain, short and snappy with the Tories in turmoil and the MSM in disarray as they are fawning over Boris.
The most evil, twisted, uncaring, racist, Scotland-hating, disability-hating, wicked person to ever be UK prime minister has decided at last to resign. Good riddance. Good f*****g riddance.
Looks like the replacement will be even worse, Boris the English clown, ‘house jock’ brexiteer Michael gove, or Rory the Tory, ‘Borderlands boy’, Scotland-hater and MI6 spook, Stewart.
Please can we have independence now. Scotland does not want ANY of this.
Will the Tory leadership campaign end with the winner as PM?
Already, there is no natural majority of Conservative MPs. It is possible that if all Tories support their new leader, then abstentions and/or pacts could see him/her confirmed in post.
But if some publicly refuse to back him/her, then would HMQ even ask this new leader to form a government? In these circumstances, would it be certain which way DUP and TiG would vote in a VoC?
Perhaps May would be left as interim PM to oversee a new General Election. Would there be any other way round what would be seen as a constitutional crisis?
Darren Docherty at 1204pm,
QUOTE “When the waterworks started, I almost pished myself. I had tears in my eyes too, as Ribena came out my nose.
Still wondering where the Ribena came from…”
Surely that is the best (and funniest) response online to Cruella’s demise.
Fact is, Theresa May will be remembered in Scotland, with even less affection than that evil old witch Thatcher. And I never thought anybody could be worse than Thatcher.
Heaven help us – she does not even know how many nations in Uk according to her 4 nations of UK??????
The tories are so cruel even to their own – if this is what they do to their leader no wonder they don’t regard their welfare cuts etc as cruel and callous.
As usual when this odious cow talks about her nation she doesn’t mean our nation.
C’mon Nicola!! Sansa Stark showed you the way on Monday’s Game of thrones.
Independence for the North, never again bending the knee.
C’mon, Queen of the North, set us free!!!!
Why the hell has Nicola Sturgeon not got the necessary indyref legislation in place already? She should have started this process in the spring of 2017, before the surprise GE took the wind out of her sails; perhaps May’s only notable achievement and even then she fucked it up by reducing her own majority!
I don’t have a license (since 14!) so I missed her speech, thank god.
But judging from the feedback, who are these people? deluded, self serving, soulless idiots. The old adage so aptly applies, we raise to the level of our own incompetence.
And of course let us NEVER forget, Cruella could have had her brexit, if she had listened. Simple, N.Ireland and Scotland want to remain in the EU, so let them stay in Single market and customs union, with fully devolved powers. This ends the Irish border problem entirely and allows Scotland and N.Ireland to do what their people voted for.
And England could have then had the hardest brexit it wanted.
But of course, that would mean giving Scotland control over its own future, and that isn’t allowed whilst it remains a subjugated English colony (plaything).
A snap Scottish GE in October. Pro Indy candidates campaign on starting negotiations with the UK government for Independence from the UK, and at the same time the EU , arguing for remaining within the EU, as a successor state.
Enough of this nonsense. Surely we will have pro Indy vote of 60 % by October
this poor cow is gonna be found slumped in the bogs, an empty bottle of pills next to her
seriously, what happens next if the tories get themselves a COMPETENT psychopath
– that would not be better
could they not hire a locum
– and then, if they work out alright …
is there an agency which does emergency PMs – maybe a high end corporate headhunter
would be nice if nicola tweeted something CRUEL like – me got a job – me saw you off – me see off next one …
We all know who really rules the UK….those pimps to the megarich, the City and it will continue to do so whoever the English choose for their PM.
The following is worth a read.
link to commonwealmagazine.org
Note in text British overseas territories and dependencies as enablers to the wealthy. Apparently a certain Gordon Brown was going to sort that.
Charities, foundations, trusts and all that keep-my-money-safe blether.
countr
a nation with its own government, occupying a particular territory.
“the country’s increasingly precarious economic position”
synonyms: state, “nation”, sovereign state, kingdom, realm, territory, province, principality, palatinate, duchy, empire, commonwealth
Tears of a Clown!
I too shed tears for the millions of children she had put into poverty, I cry for those in Zero Hours contracts that offer no future, my eyes stream for those denied dignity and basic welfare support through Tory Universal Discredit.
May can now run off and spend her £Millions and of course do the standard after diner speaker trail in the US where Tony and Gordon have made £Million by just backing anything America does while in office.
Gordon Brown owes May a great debt of gratitude, he can now be referred to as the 2nd worst UK Prime Minister in history.
Good Riddance and put a fair wind behind you!
Good riddance to bad rubbish.
Boris might be in for a shock,waltzing in as PM picked by the tories will not go down well in England from what i am seeing .
No deal here we come. Its as if the plan is coming together for the hard right of the tory party.
Are you all missing the Tory Party history?
After all the hoo ha of their selection process they often come up with a leader no one outside the Tory party, and many in the Tory party, has ever heard about.
Make no mistake that the Labour Party will most likely also now go into turmoil over leadership.
@Winifred Mcartney
For self-preservation the Brit establishment will eat its own young. Why we must not be soft, compromise or liase with it in any form. Cold Steel Politics only!
The poor wee lamb…
Someone should call the vet!
Boris will go to the EU and try to renegotiate the deal.
The EU will say, politely, bogoff and Boris will denounce
their intransigence.
No deal Brexit
Boris Johnson is a dangerous man and not the bumptious bungling oaf the English/Britjock media like to portray, its all a front.
The Tories operate a system of Klingon Promotion
Definition … “Advancing your career by exploiting or causing the death or misfortune of your superior. Imputes a certain level of ruthlessness both to the individual and to the culture of the workplace.”
With their ruthless and callous policies, it follows that they will have a culture of ‘back stabbing’ and a fair degree of front stabbing!
What now? What do the Tories do now?
A new leader who fantasies about a different EU Withdraw Agreement? No chance. That deal has been done.
A new leader who aims for ‘no deal’ and WTO? WM as a whole will stop that level of lunacy, surely?
A new leader who is pragmatic and promises a soft future trade deal, which the EU would readily agree to? Customs Union plus plus, maybe. The problem here is grassroots Tories are keen on a hard ‘hari kiri’, in true Tory ruthless style. It may be a case of suicide for the whole UK, or suicide for the Tory party!
Scotland? We really do need to move toward Indy and let them get on with it.
It just can’t be business as usual from the SNP, surely?
Time to reinstate Scotland as a nation, now.
Set phasers tae malky, I say.
The Tory Leadership contest. Boris Johnson. VIDEO.
Lord Chris Patten says Johnson is,”‘Mendacious’ and ‘Incompetent’.
Continues:”……“He’s lied his way through life, he’s lied his way through politics, he’s a huckster with a degree of charm to which I am immune,” Patten said in an interview with Bloomberg Television in London.
“As well as being mendacious he’s incompetent…….”
VIDEO and Bloomberg article,Tuesday 21st May.
link to tinyurl.com
Yes, beware the Tory who hasn’t declared himself yet because he says he’s backing somebody else, until the last minute
Herr Mogg perhaps
@ Jack Murphy – just like Trump then.
Awaiting Nicola’s announcement. Now is the time.
OK, now may we see the end of the risk averse element in the SNP…all to gain, so much to lose.
SNP leaders must throw themselves wholely into the fight. No compromise, no prisoners.
There is no Geneva Convention covering this kind of struggle.
Launch Independence referendum campaign, NOW.
If only the EU had said, ‘please waste this time’ Telling the Tories not to do something is always a good sign they will do it. Tell them not to sanction the poorest most desititute people, and Bob’s your uncle, there they go and do it.
They are going to get their no deal Brexit, by hook, or by crook, or both.
Scotland is at the mercy of a sham administration at Westminster, that is so not good for Scotland.
Scotland, please get out of this dreadful colonial headed mess before it’s just too late to do anything about it at all.
I posted slip of the thumb too early at 12:36 pm.
May’s Brit Nat attempt to distinguish ‘Nation’ and ‘country’ : hair splitting by the Brit Nats yet again.
May’s precious ‘nation’ of four ‘countries’, or since they are synonyms, a precious ‘nation’ of four ‘nations’, or, if you like, a precious ‘country’ of four ‘countries’, or a precious ‘country’ of four ‘nations’.
The UK is not a nation or a country: it is a political construct imposed on England’s colonies and a parcel of Robber Barons.
May she rot in hell.
Aye, or that guy Stephen Bike, Bush, Boak, Bean or some name like that. He’s a secret contender.
Its our time, its not called Grenwich Mean Time for nothing you know, and we’ll do what we want with it.
Its our birthright and our entitlement as we were taught at Eton.
Never trust a Tory
I have zero sympathy for the departing PM. The Tories were always fond of calling Labour reds or commies etc over the years,but they are the ones who will,no doubt,elect a PM called Boris.
The quest for independence stands upon the edge of a knife,
stray but a little, and it will fail, to the ruin of us all,
yet hope remains while our trust in Nicola is true.
Jings!
Sarah Smith reporting frae Glasgow in a new BBC hair-do and in an orange jacket telling the ‘four countries’ of the ‘Nation’what Sturgeon thinks.
In the words of Monty Python, she aint dead yet.
At the moment all we have is a promise to resign and a stated intent to hand over the role of PM when a new leader of the Tory Party arrives.
Obviously if the shit hits the fan and Iran needs invaded she’ll rise to the occasion and remain as our war time leader until the crisis is over.
She is working her lying time, that means one day for every lie she utterred , she will still be there in twenty years!
As a small point, imagine if Indy Ref 2 had been called already, say for September 19th, Tory leadership election, new PM and perhaps a GE. We’d be screwed.
Sep 19 is still a possibility, but in view of recent and coming events, not lagging ahead of the game.
What was the timetable leading to Major’s appointment following the knifing of Thatcher?
Will labour support a brexit boris – meybees ayes meybbes naw
Listening to her blush it about fighting injustice, creating equality, making a better country, I truly wondered how she had the audacity to make such a speech.
Her government have created austerity, rolled back social protections, victimised immigrants, created the hostile society and she stands outside Downing Streetet spouting this sanctimonious pish.
And now more of the same as the grateful poor grub about waiting for the next great Conservative leader they didn’t vote for.
Truly makes you realise what toilet tailings the poor are when they accept this type of society.
Pretty much nailed it Rev.
The politics of Westminster is in full-on carnage mode at this point. Those lining up behind Ms May are even more of a political and societal disaster waiting to happen. (YES. That is entirely possible.)
A better title for this post you could not find.
From what I understand , a bill is to come before Holyrood next week re- independence. This should be interesting. In the meantime I do not think that the disenfrisment of so many EU nationals will go unnoticed nor unpunished by the EU. coupled together with the blatant electoral fraud now going on at Parish Council level in England. A referendum cannot be trusted to those who are in charge of running the UK elections, they are unfit for purpose.
Is it bad that I burst out laughing at the end of her resignation speech when the Maybot cried for herself?
Honestly, the thought of an even worse more incompetent Tory taking over is enough to make ME greet and I’m sure I’m not the only one.
Come on, Scotland, get yer erse in gear. It’s time we packed our bags and bid farewell to this disastrous “union.”
Boris “Ronald McDonald” Johnson PM? Or Amber Fudd? Esther McVile? The ones with the Scottish cringe must really, really hate themselves and this great nation of Scotland if they are to allow this pish.
That’s it. We now have to come off the policy of holding Indyref and change to the Thatcher doctrine of a majority in a general election.
Why so? After this last referendum experience they have become a very bad way of making decisions, which Ruth the Mooth will milk for all its worth. There is no way that the Tories will agree to a Section 30 Order, so we have to go all out to repeat the 2015 GE election result and send a huge contingent of SNP MPs to Westminster. We then have to adopt the disruptive tactics of the Irish MPs prior to Irish Independence. As I recall it the 2015 GE result gave a marginal > 50% for Independence. Surely with all the treatment the Tories have dished out over the last three years and the sheer folly of Brexit it is now time to change course and go for it.
@ dandydons1903 12:47 pm
Totally agree,the same goes for Farage, two created illusions
I’d like the First Minster to summarise the promises broken by May and the Refusal
To allow Scotland any Kind of voice on Brexit even with a resounding 62% vote
For Scots remaining in the EU.
If she can also use the Revs research she can conclude that a No Deal Brexit was always
The Tory plans an economic catastrophe awaits Scotland to suit the Westminster elite.
The time is right, the time is now, Scotland must take control of its own future and
honour the 2 referendums were we made it clear we are European Citizens and we
Will remain so.
This can be settled for once and all by Indy Ref 2 and I am setting the date !
The BBC WatO programme was a festival of Tories. Now over to Scotland to ask Ruth Davidson what she thinks. Now what does Stephen Kerr think? Union, union, union pretty much sums up what they think. Nobody else in Scotland has an opinion apparently.
I hope SLab voters are listening to the sound of an endless future of Tory voices ruling over us. You YES yet?
Wile E. Cyote has been in oblivious freefall for quite some time now. Perhaps today’s tears indicate that, at last she can see the hard ground rapidly approaching. It’s funny how someone so devoid of empathy for those less fortunate, can feel so utterly sorry for herself as her reign of stupidity finally comes to a pathetic end.
My heart bleeds.
If it all stumbles towards a Boris PM and a no deal Brexit then we must vote again on independence. If Yes does not succeed under that scenario then I fear we deserve everything we get.
The SNP already have a mandate. It is about time they used that mandate and Dissolved the UK Union.
Do it now when MPs are looking forward to a summer of recess.
Anyway,is this not the point in time where we all sign up to the tory party and elect Chris Grayling,just like when Jeremy Corbyn got the Labour leadership.
Can you imagine a major company, which was about to go under following the CEO resigning , taking a couple of months to appoint a new CEO. They then all go on holiday!.
Get ready for Hell ( the non millionaires amongst you that is)
It will start with pound heading South very quickly.
Is the resignation of the UK Prime Minister “a material change in circumstances” to call IndyRef2, Nicola?
If it came to the crunch would you prefer Boris or Nigel. A question I thought I would never ask!
The FM/SNP independence campaign started, there will be information going out to every household in the country.
It was announced at the Conference, of course none of those speeches were covered by press or TV.
Effijy 12.38pm. Yes,millions of children put into poverty, those on zero contract hours and on welfare support through tory universal credit. Yes there must be a lot of elderly/retired yoons in Scotland whose grandchildren/children fall into that category. And still they vote for their beloved union. The mind boggles.
Another Tory PM bites the dust – will not give it another thought – more concerned with those working at British Steel – she can curl up on her sofa in her £995 leather breeks and have a good greet.
The nasty Tory party is successfully creating a nasty England. This has been achieved with the help of the nasty MSM.
Scotland needs to get the hell out of this nasty union before it’s too late.
O/T It seems that the UK can’t even do elections properly. There is a growing scandal erupting over the (deliberate?) disenfranchisement of thousands of EU citizens denied a legitimate vote in the latest one by a bureaucratic wangle. This isn’t the usual conspiracy-theory lunacy but what looks suspiciously like US-style voter suppression. Maybe we’ll eventually find out whether there is any correlation between problems and councils with particular affiliations. There are even rumblings about a possible legal challenge.
Yet again BBC Jockland describes Ruth Davidson as the leader of the Scottish Conservatives.
There is no such beast as ‘Scottish Conservatives’
They are Brit Nat /English Conservatives.
The Dirty Dozen led by Mundell are WM MP’s and have nothing to do with Ruth Davidson of the Ruth Davidson Conservative and Unionist Party.
Ruth Davidson is the Branch Manager of the UK Unionist and Conservative Party.
She has hee haw to do with Brexit strategy, or any element of WM Government policy and strategy.
She’s a wee bookkeeper for the Northern outpost.
Potholes and public conveniences are her special subject. I’ve started so I’ll finish.
Despite Toodle Oo The Noo constantly referring to her as Ross Thomson’s ‘boss’, in an attempt to put her on the same political level as Nicola Sturgeon who is Leader of the SNP, and has 35 MP’s in WM.
Davidson is a political Nobody.
This week has shown Davidson up for what she is, now that her BF Big T is fucked;
she has all the authority and power of a kid’s sandcastle as a tsunami rushes towards the shores.
This Brexit stuff is all ‘way above her pay grade.
Yet front and centre, BBC Propaganda Unit at Pacific Quay gather around her, filming and recording her vacuous piffle.
Now is the time, guys. Will somebody fire the starting gun?
We need a date for our referendum now even if it is May 2021
Starlaw 1.55pm. Exactly! A 2nd Scottish independence referendum needs neutral EU observers, or as sure as Tuesday follows Monday those despicable cheating barstewards in Westminster will nobble it by hook or by crook guaranteed.
Twitter saying Sir Graham Brady has stood down as 1922 Committee chairman. Looks like a “Stop Boris” effort now in full swing.
link to twitter.com
Tweet from Lord Ashcroft
“At the point the members of the Conservative Party have a binary choice between the last 2 candidates little consideration will be given on any policy other than Brexit. The winner will be who is believed to be the one who won’t take no deal off the table…”
This is true. The membership want a ‘no deal’ Brexit.
However, it’s up to the Tory MPs to whittle it down to the last two. This procedure has a habit of taking unexpected turns!
For instance, there have been situations where it goes to two and one pulls out. The other is crowned without it going to all members.
Is it possible the MPs have numbers to get it to two and exclude a no-deal-er?
May announces her awa day wi a tear in her’n e.
No difference, same party, same clique running the shot show. Next, into the BLUE CORNER, the Blonde Bomber, B..o..r..i..s JOHNSTON!!!!
And … In the even bluer corner … Thee Smug of Smug, J..a..c..o..b REES-MOGG!!!!
And, presenting your referee … The Queen of Milkshakes … N..I..g..e..l Farageeee!..
May the worst man win, no gouging, low punches or foot stamping (unless approved by the BBC)
@Cubby 2.50pm
A nasty England indeed.
Normally on the road to fascism, the media are silenced as they are usually the dissenting voices.
In the uk, the media have become the state propaganda unit, cowering in fear due to threats of Leveson 2 if they do not meekly comply.
Serious question, when was the last blockbuster ‘Scoop’ by investigative journalism on a paper Front Page ?
The most worrying part of all this swing to near fascist right wing politics, is the fact that the part of the voting population (England) are seemingly happy to go along with it.
EU election results in England should all but confirm that shift.
All it would take is a GE where those voting the fascist leaning brexit party, keep voting brexit party, and we could be looking at openly fascist leaning politicians either running the Uk or holding enough seats to dictate the political direction of the uk.
Suddenly, that Hard Independent Scottish Border looks like an eminently sensible idea.
It simple now .
Indy, or that, as an option.
But don’t they know we are British?
They will dance to our tune eventually!
I genuinely believe that is the thinking behind the UK approach.
Tam Fae Somewhere@12.04pm
Sorry but she knows fine well the difference between reducing the annual deficit and reducing the UK national debt. She has lied about reducing the national debt so many times and the media lets her away with it she obviously thought she might as well lie again,
She is a liar just like the rest of the British Nationalists.
May resigns as PM, you say?
In the words of my late compatriot, Windsor Davies:
“Oh dear. How sad. Never mind.”
Bobp says:
Young people need to engage in politics more. It’s their future old foggies like us are fighting for! They need to do more fighting for themselves.
And the first thing engaged youngsters need to do is have words with their own No / Leave / BritNat supporting relatives. Tell them to STOP SCREWING UP their futures!
While this woman was making her ’emotional’ statement, I was volunteering in a food bank trying to dry the tears of a young man who had not eaten for more than a week. He is a perfectly decent young man let down catastophically by Theresa May and every person who voted Tory.
I am so emotional that I would gladly inflict physical violence on May and every person who voted Tory. This can’t go on.
Will they just have a GE. Get rid of some of the dross.The selfish, self seeking Tories. They do not give a damn for anyone else. What. Complete and utter shambles. It will not matter who is Tory PM. The Tories are finished after this appalling fiasco.
PM Boris, royalty, union flag patriotism and a possible project fear #2…just about all that’s left in the UK box.
However, we must not underestimate the power of such a nexus were it to coordinate its actions.
‘Seize the day and put little trust in tomorrow’ as a wise old Roman once said.
At least Mad Boris is upfront about letting everyone know how deluded and/or deceitful he actually is!
Boris Johnson has vowed to crash the UK out of the EU without a deal if necessary …. “We will leave the EU on October 31, deal or no deal. The way to get a good deal is to prepare for a no deal.”
The return of cakism. He’s gonna threaten the EU with ‘no deal’ and they will roll over and give him all he wants. Aye, richt.
link to archive.is
@HandandShrimp says:
24 May, 2019 at 2:29 pm
If it all stumbles towards a Boris PM and a no deal Brexit then we must vote again on independence. If Yes does not succeed under that scenario then I fear we deserve everything we get.
The folk who vote NO will deserve everything they get but not those who vote YES though unfortunately we will get it too. I wonder though if the genii is out of the bottle and won’t get put back in again? That’s nearly half the population pro-Indy now and must be another extra 10-20% who could persuaded. Sticking to the union was for many people just something that was accepted, no thought behind it, the natural way of things. Now that’s been challenged and much of what made the union attractive has been killed off.
Now that she is gone and her deal is dead in the water should the £1 million given to the DUP not be returned??.
I noted in her speech about the things she had done no mention RC/BTax nor allthe disabled people who have lost money and food banks.
No sympathy from me for her.
What a joke this ‘leadership’ contest will be. Another hilarious pantomime. The Tory ship of fools. It doesn’t matter a jolt who the next Tory PM will be. They are going down big time. The Brexit catastrophe. What a bunch of losers.
Started to watch Mays farewell speech waiting for a train. Stopped after a couple of minutes, gave me the boak. This person is a true torry and does nothing but lies. How she has the brass neck to stand up and spout crap in the belief that its the truth is beyond me.
She is reported to have cried at the end. That’s nothing to the misery and pain she has inflicted on the disabled and and the less well off in society. Her cruelty is beyond the pale and typical of the torrys i’m all right jack and f**k you attitude.
Whatever happens in the future she and all the rest of the multi millionaires torrys will not be affected. Only the disabled and the poor will continue to suffer under her and the torry lagacy.
I have nothing but total and utter contempt for this shell of a person, a habitual liar, arrogant, self centred, ignorant and stubborn to the point of obsessional.
No need to wait any longer.NS needs to get on with it and stop bloody prevaricating before the next torry cretin again changes the rules.
We have all had enough. Do something for God’s sake. We are fed up waiting.
I think there is zero chance of a general election in the foreseeable future. Both Labour and Tory are so low in the polls that Nigel Farage could easily become the next Prime Minister if they put it to the English electorate.
Meanwhile, a majority in Scotland now want an early Indeyref2. And there can only be one obvious reason for that.
link to scotgoespop.blogspot.com
“Why do the SNP and that Nicola Sturgeon no jist git oan wi it or dae sumthin ”
Doesn’t take much to bring out these types, does it?
And of course, by making such hysterical demands, they are implying the SNP and Nicola, are of course, currently doing nothing.
Indidious Creeps at work.
They never say WHAT should be done and how that action would impact the indy case/cause.
Must think we are daft.
Allan Watson says: “We have all had enough. Do something for God’s sake. We are fed up waiting”.
………
Speak for yourself there.
Please don’t waste this time…a Donald Tusk statement but the indy movement must shout this load and clear to the SNP.
There simply cannot be any more faffing around.
Drop the waiting for brexit outcome, drop the gender politics pish, drop being the ‘bestest of the best’ administrators of devolved government and get on with the job of independence. That is what you were elected on – just do it!
I have saw so many people commenting on holding their nose to vote SNP for various reasons – the SNP are at real risk of losing their core vote if people start to lose trust.
We need decisive leadership now.
And before everyone jumps on me to say Nicola is the best poker player in the world – sometimes you need to know when to play your cards – the time is now (in her own words). So step up Nicola.
Nicola, now surely is the time?
“We will leave the EU on October 31, deal or no deal”, frontrunner Boris Johnson vows to let UK crash out of EU without a deal if necessary.
So BoJo has just told the EU what his plan is;
This now gives EU Nations 5 Months to finalise and execute their No Deal contingencies;
It also gives Scotland’s Government 5 Months to finalise and execute their IndyRef 2 plans.
UK out on Halloween it would seem as I seriously doubt the EU will be blackmailed into reopening the Withdrawal Agreement (especially around the Uk/Eire Border).
Unless Boris is lying again???
To geek…your post at 1202hrs May 24th…
You asked the question of James caithness, he didn’t answer
Perhaps you can
What do you think she should do now ?
Scott @3.39pm
Do you really think the DUP have had a penny of that bribe yet ?
N.I. is being run by WM not the DUP or any other N.Irish politicians.
The DUP have been ‘DUP’ed (sic).
Treeza leaving will likely mean the end of that arrangement.
Always get goods up front when dealing with WM.
To geeo… sorry typo …geek…truly accidental
tory leadership contest will be interesting – among the front runners
peter sutcliffe – big among tory women; a “50 shades of grey”-thing – fear, powerlessness, masochism
charlie manson, technically dead, but can still wow them in the shires
the darkest of dark horses is
cthulhu
asleep for aeons, dreaming dark dreams, but could be put in on an – “anyone but boris” ticket
– one positive about a cthulhu leadership bid is – he will likely EAT all the other candidates at conference
charlie and peter are thought to favour a hard brexit, while cthulhu wishes to devour your souls in an infinite dimension of madness … which is technically, a hard brexit also, but may offer some hope of a customs union
geeo says: “Speak for yourself there”
I just did. Opinions are like arseholes, everybody’s got one.
Thats mine
Is this really the best the BBC can do?
link to bbc.co.uk
What about Hammond, Baker and Rees-Mogg to name but 3?
Such a variety of talent, ooops, I was looking at the Goodwood racecard.
@T.Callachan.
The reason i asked James Caithness that question, was because he was demanding action from the FM.
So i was curious as to what action HE thought Nicola should take.
I am not demanding anything from Nicola, as I trust her and the SNP to deliver on what she has stated regarding independence, so I have no need to answer that question as the answer is that I think she should do what she thinks will deliver the 2017 manifesto pledge we as voters mandated to her and the SNP.
The same mandate HOLYROOD also endorsed.
You are asking the wrong person that question, you should be asking those who are demanding immediate action from NS/SG/SNP.
There are several of such types on this thread, go ask them.
Allan Watson 4.14pm
No allan, you stated that “WE” have had enough” and you said it TWICE.
You were projecting YOUR opinion as EVERYONE’s opinion.
And the *many faced man* wants a general election but he doesn’t want a referendum but he does want a renegotiation but he doesn’t want no deal and he does want jobs but he doesn’t want membership of anything and none of his party know what kind of cake he likes
The *many faced man’s* cake is so light it’s floating away towards where his brain is on cloud cuckoo land
Terry callachan says:
24 May, 2019 at 4:08 pm
To geek…your post at 1202hrs May 24th…
You asked the question of James caithness, he didn’t answer
Perhaps you can
What do you think she should do now ?
Petition the ECJ for clarification on whether Scotland, citing our Constitutional Sovereignty and Claim of Right that is already acknowledged by Westminster, can revoke Article 50 unilaterally as “our” Sovereign prerogative.
We would have the legal precedent established, probationary recognition secured, yet hold the actual revocation of Article 50 in abeyance until we’re ready. We can give that big red button to Groot.
That’s what I would do. (Maybe not the Groot thing).
This should be fun. Settle back and fetch the popcorn. Do any of them really still want the poisoned chalice? Brexit is undeliverable, disaster faces whoever takes over.
Yippee, best news for a long time. The UK has taken another giant leap into its inevitable grave.
arise dame theresa of voldemort
for keeping tory policy alive.
£300 aday and a bank executives job ?
Once revocation of Article 50 was confirmed as Scotland’s Sovereign prerogative, we could revoke it based upon our 2016 mandate, or be nice, and hold a snap referendum to revoke Article 50 or not.
If we did revoke Article 50, we would be independent by default, because the UK Union becomes untenable when one signatory to the Treaty is in Europe while the other is not, however it would be England’s determination to exit Europe without Scotland’s acquiescence which rendered the Union untenable.
Even if England subsequently revoked its own Article 50, it wouldn’t undo the Constitutional rent in the Union.
We don’t incidentally have to test our Sovereignty in law if that makes some people nervous, we can equally well test theirs.
Bill Mc Dermot 2.10pm Belay that pish talk WE Scots dont need a section 30 order to be granted by any future PM .
Geeo if you want to pick me up on a grammatical statement fine if it makes you feel better.
I don’t wan’t or expect you are anybody else to agree with any comment I post. It is purely my opinion which I have every right to hold.
looking at some of my fellow posters I am not alone in my thoughts. End of the matter, go and annoy someone else on their grammar.
Vince Cable to hand over his leadership on 23rd July ma hearts pumping pish both for Tereza & Cable ( mibbee’s that why ma blood pressure is high )LoL.
Geo at 4.01pm
You question those of us that are beginning to get critical of the SNP leadership – but prey tell me what are SNP doing to advance independence for Scotland?
You asked what should be done –
here’s a few thoughts…
– If it’s the SNP preference then name a date for a referendum and start the campaign. Or
– Take the legal route to court on breach of the treaty of union. Or
– use the next GE as a mandate to begin the disolution of the UK.
As we know, no country ever got their independence by pussy-footing around. This grand master plan of secrecy is wearing thin. We need action now in whatever form – if one fails try the next.
But it baffles me of this ‘Nicola knows best’ and we must all wait, wait, wait for the signal. Has it ever crossed your mind they SNP are not ready or willing to make their move. Perhaps the people need to push for action.
The French Revolution is a useful historical context of people power. The people of Scotland really needs to demand action now.
Breeks says:
24 May, 2019 at 4:35 pm
“Once revocation of Article 50 was confirmed as Scotland’s Sovereign prerogative, we could revoke it based upon our 2016 mandate”
How can we ever “revoke A50” Breeks, when WE have never triggered it or given democratic consent for it to be triggered in the first place?
Surely the matter here is not to “revoke” A50 on behalf of Scotland but rather to prove that triggering A50 on behalf of “the Uk” with only the consent of the Kingdom of England and with explicit denial of consent by Scotland was illegitimate.
I do not mean “illegitimate” in the eyes of an English supreme court that is not impartial because its existence relies in the preservation of the union and subjugation of Scotland, but rather illegitimate in the eyes of an international, impartial court that sees the treaty of union 1707 for what it really is, an international treaty, not a declaration of surrender.
Why are we having to put up with this liar continuing as PM for weeks possibly months until a new leader is elected.
Is there no mechanism for appointing a temporary leader until the leadership election is completed.
What if she had died or been incapacitated in some way – surely somebody would have to be appointed in the same way as The Leader of The House stands in at PMQs when PM is absent.
As to the runners and riders being speculated on most of them seem to fall into the category Major described as Bastards.
The only ones that I could ascribe a degree of not-bastardness to are Amber Rudd and Rory The Tory.
It is terrifying to contemplate our Scottish Colony being ruled by a Johnson government containing Rees-Mogg, Fox, Gove, Davies and Duncan-Smith, with the likes of Redwood, Cash, Francois & Co cheering them on along with Farage yanking the string in the background.
Theresa May can make speeches that bear no resemblance to reality it is becoming more prevalent for these kind of speeches by politicians, trump did many to become president and is still doing them his latest is talking about peace in the Middle East whilst stockpiling aircraft carriers and other warships as close to Iran as possible.
Nicola Sturgeon will not call a Scottish independence referendum she is tied to requesting an section 30 agreement of Westminster because she is a politician that believes in doing things by the book even if it’s the Westminster book.
Is this relevant ? Yes indeed because as we have been told today Westminster will do next to no government work until a new Tory leader is elected they certainly won’t grant a section 30 order agreeing to a Scottish independence referendum.
Nicola Sturgeon knows this so she won’t ask for one, well she certainly won’t ask Theresa May for one and by the time a new PM is elected a final brexit decision will be imminent.
Nicola Sturgeon will wait until brexitday , if we leave with no deal she will ask the new PM for a section 30 and will be refused because leaving with no deal means thrusting Northern Ireland back into civil war which will be a sign that whichever Tory is elected as the new PM cares not a jot about anything other than England .
That will be bad news for Scotland because civil war in Northern Ireland and no deal brexit all kicking off at the same time will relegate Scotland’s requirements even further in Westminster.
It’s sad to say it but this is the reality of where we stand.
Declaring independence , having a Scottish independence referendum , neither will happen without Westminster’s agreement I don’t like it but it’s reality and don’t think for a minute that Westminster can refuse agreement continuously because it can’t, for all its ills Westminster still has to show the world that it is a democratic place even if it just lies about how it practices democracy.
A Scottish independence referendum will happen but only after brexit has occurred.
The way it will happen will be Nicola Sturgeon asking for a section 30 and it being agreed by Westminster .
Brexit cancellation will be difficult for Nicola Sturgeon but brexit cancellation does not look to be the favorite in this race at present…at present…let’s see who is elected Tory leader.
Ma hert bleeds.
Aff toapic – yoan U.S. Supreme Court voted [20th May, 2019] 5-4 in favour of the 1868 Treaty Of Fort Laramie having precedence over Wyoming state and Bighorn National Forest legislation.
Neil Gorsuch [aye him!], voted for the tribal treaty. Trump, no doubt in twitter rage.
To geeo…your post at 4.20 pm 24th May…
You say James caithness in his post at midday was demanding Nicola Sturgeon take action
Geeo, mr caithness wasn’t demanding Nicola Sturgeon do anything
All he said was “ let’s see what Nicola Sturgeon does now “
It’s a reasonable question
That’s why I asked it of you
You didn’t answer it
For all you Game of Thrones fans.
Will the Tory leadership battle be another Battle of The Bastards?
To breaks about your post 4.24pm 24th May…
Petition ECJ revoke A50
Certainly worth a shot
I do wonder if ECJ would take it on with all that is happening in UK politics but worth a try
“Use this time wisely!”
Did Donald Tusk say this with sincere belief, or tongue in cheek with full knowledge the uk would descend into pantomime?
The EU has played a blinder, time we left a sinking ship and joined the EU in our own right!
People saying May has been the worst PM, in my life time I would say the War Criminal Tony Blair,more people murdered, butchered, bombed and tortured due to his actions and that of Westminster. Lets not only blame individuals, the Westminster system is the cause for all of this supported by the political parties sitting in it, we need to free our selves from this murderous regime, have no part in it, our MPs should never sit in that foreign Parliament.
We Scottish independence supporters have waited a long time after the 2014 devastation but not long now.
Nicola Sturgeon predicted that brexit might happen and tied her election as SNP leader to a mandate for another Scottish independence referendum should brexit come to pass.
She clearly thinks it will.
I hope she is right.
If it does Scottish independence will be ours.
Sturgeon should not be thanking May for ANYTHING
Terry callachan says:
24 May, 2019 at 5:02 pm
“Petition ECJ revoke A50
Certainly worth a shot”
Terry, I asked Breeks and I will ask to you as well if you don’t mind, as I am very interested on this:
How can we credibly request to revoke A50 on behalf of Scotland when Scotland never triggered nor gave consent for triggering the article in the first place?
Surely submitting a petition to revoke A50 is basically accepting by the back door that it was triggered on behalf of Scotland too, that is why we want to revoke it. Isn’t that handing the key of the backdoor to Scotland’s consent to brexit that the British nationalists have been so utterly desperate to gain since 2016?
Sorry, but I think it is, as it would be any fudge “confirmatory vote” that does not include a “remain in the EU” option.
I therefore have to disagree with both your proposals in the strongest possible terms because in my view they hand over, in a silver plate, the acknowledgement by Scotland that the article was triggered on behalf of Scotland, when it wasn’t.
Scotland, in the form of its electorate, its parliament and its legitimate representatives in the UK parliament never gave consent for A50 to be triggered, and England MPs are not the legitimate representatives of Scotland so in the framework of an international union of equals, Westminster has gone ultravires, abusing its position of power by unilaterally dissolving an international treaty on behalf of the UK state without the expressed consent of one of the only 2 constituent parts of that state, the kingdom of Scotland.
Therefore, I think the way to prove and exercise our legitimate sovereignty here is not by begging for Westminster wrongdoings to be amended, but rather by forcefully denying that A50 was ever triggered legitimately on behalf of the UK in the first place because Scotland, as much the UK as the Kingdom of England whose representatives triggered the article, has never given consent for it to be triggered.
“1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements”
That is the wording of A50. My point is that triggering A50 without the expressed consent of Scotland and actively against the expressed democratic will of the sovereign people of Scotland does not fulfill the United Kingdom of Great Britain’s constitutional requirements to trigger A50. In acting as a self-appointed absolute ruler, Westminster (gov and parliament) violated Scotland’s claim of right and the treaty of union itself which upholds such right.
I hope what I am saying makes some sense.
Rcckon Ruthie should become a full-time surrogate mother.
@Abulhaq says: 24 May, 2019 at 1:06 pm:
” … OK, now may we see the end of the risk averse element in the SNP…all to gain, so much to lose.
SNP leaders must throw themselves wholely into the fight. No compromise, no prisoners.”
I do wish one of you expert political Wingers would run for First Minister. After all, according to you lot the SNP leadership are tally useless and it has been just you Winger expert politicians here that have brought Scotland to the point of imminent independence.
So which of you is ready to step up and depose that utterly useless Nicola Sturgeon?
What on Earth has she and the SNP ever done for Scotland?
Aye!
Richt!
The Brutish establishment used to say that Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton,
it looks like the Brutish Empire will finally be destroyed from the playing fields of Eton,
with pig fancier Cameron and the buffoon Johnson both ex Eton boys,
wouldn`t supprise me if these two privileged Bullingdon Boys found the whole thing `most amusing`.
Ne’er cast a cloot
Till May is oot
Can I take my clothes off yet?
Callachan@4.59pm
Actually i did answer it.
Are words too difficult for you to comprehend ?
Seems so.
And i quote:
“I am not demanding anything from Nicola, as I trust her and the SNP to deliver on what she has stated regarding independence, so I have no need to answer that question AS THE ANSWER IS THAT I THINK SHE SHOULD do what she thinks will deliver the 2017 manifesto pledge we as voters mandated to her and the SNP.
The same mandate HOLYROOD also endorsed”
……….
Not sure how much clearly I can be, I ain’t responsible for your stoopid !
Did you ask anyone else by the way ?
@call me dave says: 24 May, 2019 at 1:27 pm:
… Sarah Smith reporting frae Glasgow in a new BBC hair-do and in an orange jacket telling the ‘four countries’ of the ‘Nation’what Sturgeon thinks. ?”
Well I would not presume to guess what Nicola Sturgeon thinks but I’d make a guess that it might just be along the lines of – The united Kingdom is exactly as its title describes it as.
A two partner union of kingdoms and is thus neither a single unified country, a single unified nation nor anything other than a united kingdom formed by a treaty of equally sovereign, formerly independent, kingdoms.
If it is anything it is obviously what it calls itself – A two partner united kingdom called, would you believe, The United Kingdom.
@Robert Peffers
“What on Earth has she and the SNP ever done for Scotland?” you ask.
A question only answerable after independence, the thing the SNP ‘is for’.
Until then many wait, with growing impatience.
Brian @ 5:11 pm
“Sturgeon should not be thanking May for ANYTHING”
We don’t know what goes on behind the closed doors of the Privy Council.
The EU Withdrawal Act that passed last year will take until October (or longer) for the associated statutory instruments and Scottish statutory instruments to be in place before ‘No Deal’.
She also managed to arrange a hung parliament, succeeded in drawing the whole thing out so that the UK was involved in the elections for the parliament of the EU, and arrange for an election to find a successor that will rub Scots up the wrong way.
Scozie@4.46pm
“what are SNP doing to advance independence for Scotland”
…………..
This is clearly THE Dumbest thing on here today, and Callachan posts here !!
Bravo. Well done.
Emmm….in 2014 the SNP DELIVERED AN INDYREF.
Emmm….in the last Holyrood election, the SNP ensured we could deliver another mandate for another indyref.
A few weeks ago, Nicola Sturgeon announced we would be ENACTING said mandate.
Yet here clowns like you are, coming out with pish like “what are SNP doing to advance independence for Scotland” ?
Fooling nobody there.
Allan Watson says:
24 May, 2019 at 4:37 pm
Geeo if you want to pick me up on a grammatical statement fine if it makes you feel better.
………
Except, that is not what i did, fine you know.
You STATED this: “We have all had enough. Do something for God’s sake. We are fed up waiting.
That ain’t no ‘grammatical error’ Allan.
That is YOU presenting YOUR opinion as the view of EVERYONE.
Now, if you had said….”I have all had enough. Do something for God’s sake. I am fed up waiting”.
THAT would be YOUR opinion.
Your pathetic backtracking makes you look dafter.
Apparently, May has been nominated for an Oscar.
Maria F@5.27pm
Your post does make complete sense. Thanks for taking the time to once again debunk this approach.
Geeo
thanks also for taking the time to debunk a lot of the nonsense that people keep posting even though the nonsense has usually been debunked on many previous occasions on Wings.
A rotting corpse heading a stinking pit of cadavers.
In the name of mercy, just slake it with lime and bulldoze it in – But no, half of Scotland sniffs the sweet stench of decay and thinks of syrupy Union goodness therein.
It is difficult champing at the bit in the current turmoil and wondering what it will take for Scots to actually deliver Independence. It must be the same within the SNP camp as well. It should always be remembered that it is Scots who must deliver Independence, the SNP can only help it along.
They delivered for the people of Scotland just 5 years ago and Scotland let them down. Not the other way around.
So, what to do? Try and find something to galvanise Scots into delivering independence. What single issue could that be? At first glance it seems like Brexit, but if anything that is such complex shitshow it is poisoning the well even more.
The finest ploy by the ‘Establishment’ has been to drive Brexit right up to the end of this term of the Scots Parliament. It may be enough to shanghai any Indyref even if if the SNP does manage to get one out.
I still feel Scotland will have to face the reality of being taken out of Europe first and a Bojo/Faragist English Nationalist government, finally stripping them of the last vestiges of hope. Until then, there is still that hope that it won’t happen – and where there is a glimmer of hope, people are reluctant to go all-in.
Are the SNP partially complicit in that extension of hope? In a way yes, with campaigns to retain some form of trade or CU or other, even to backing another ‘Brexit’ vote.
However, they are a government for Scotland and as such were backed into that and could do little else. Now though, the decision must be upon them; go for a referendum and gamble on being let down by Scotland yet again, or walk out of Europe with the UK and let votes in SGE in 2021 (or a GE) fall where they will.
They could do that. They could just walk and say in 2021 “It’s purely an Independence ticket this time – you know where we are, vote if you want it” I’m sure there must be an element which does think that way. What else does Scotland want from them? In all this shitshow half of Scotland still apparently wants to vote Con/Lab/LibDem.
So what would I do? Well, I’d just cut my losses early and not go to 2021. Double down on a second Indy ref and throw every other legislative backdoor at it as well. Go big or go home. Scots may fail themselves again, but in another decade, they will always know who fought longest and hardest for the country which used to be Scotland, when it went out in it’s grand tradition of glorious failure.
Or just perhaps…
Brian at 511pm,
Totally, totally agree. It’s like a jolly nice club, where one person dictates that Scotland cannot have a democratic vote, and is then thanked for the job they have done. Unreal.
When oh when will the SNP stop pandering to Westminster norms and being so freaking nice to the very people who are on a daily basis spitting in the face of Scotland. Theresa May was vile, and did nothing but work against Scotland and its democratic rights.
She needs condemned for the vile creature she is, not thanked.
Useful background on the turning away of voters.
Not archived so you can open up the comments
including the experience of one person just moved from Stirling to Leicester. (no, not Brendan Rogers)
link to theconversation.com
Conspiracy or cockup?
A mixture, I suspect.
@Bill McDermott says: 24 May, 2019 at 2:01 pm:
” … That’s it. We now have to come off the policy of holding Indyref and change to the Thatcher doctrine of a majority in a general election.”
Why so? Indeed.
” … There is no way that the Tories will agree to a Section 30 Order.”
Oh! For God’s sake, Bill, give it a bloody rest. How many times must it be pointed out that a Section 30 Order is NOT Westminster’s permission to hold a referendum?
Referendums are not against any law and thus anyone can legally hold a referendum any time. A Section 30 Order is the agreement of Westminster AND Holyrood to abide by the result of a referendum.
The Reason Nicola Sturgeon insists upon asking Westminster for one is because Westminster’s usual totally ignoring Scotland in all things. Without a Section 30 Westminster would just attempt to ignore Scotland – as usual. However, if Westminster is asked to agree a section 30 Order and refuses to abide by the result it strengthens Scotland’s case for independence and that is not within the United Kingdom that this strengthening is important but in the European Union and such as the United Nations.
Now I will explain that claim for you. The UK, EU, United Nations and most other international bodies have all signed up to the Human Rights charters. One such prime Human Right is for any easily identified body of people to have the inalienable right of Self Determination.
North Britain was recognised by the Romans under the generic name of “The Picts”, and the Romans failed to conquer and make North Britain part of the Roman Empire. The Anglo Saxons only came to Britain after the Romans left and North Britain remained unconquered until this day. How much more recognisable could a body of people be?
So, section 30 or not Westminster is on a hiding to nothing to ignoring a section 30 request. To add to that the Treaty of Union only has two signatory kingdoms and the United Kingdom is legally a two kingdom union of equally sovereign partner kingdoms and Westminster legally represents both of them equally.
The brainwashed idea that Westminster is the English Parliament is mince. England has not had an,elected as such parliament, since 30 April 1707. No international court would accept and claim by Westminster that it holds legal sovereignty over Scotland and Westminster has no legal claim as the parliament of England. It is exactly what its name says it is, “The United Kingdom Parliament”, and thus has conflict of interest if it tries to act as the parliament of either of the two kingdoms of the union.
It is pure mince that the United Kingdom is a Westminster Parliament of England that has devolved England’s powers to three subservient countries of England and that is exactly what Devolution is.
That is what the EU and the international courts can only rule as because that is exactly what the legal situation is. Nicola has been building a rock solid case for ending the United Kingdom but you know as well as I do that Westminster has been brainwashing everyone that, “Scotland is leaving the United Kingdom and that what remains is an rUnited Kingdom.
It just isn’t legally so. The Treaty of Union joined two equally sovereign kingdoms together and Westminster is legally the joint parliament of only those two Kingdoms. It is not the parliament of England devolving English sovereign powers to three subservient English dominions.
The Tories in Scotland now want Independence
No no not for Scotland, from their own party in England because the evil nastiness of their own party is putting off people in Scotland from voting for them, and that’s terrible how are they supposed to lie to the Scottish public when their own party keeps being caught at it
So what are the Tories to do in Scotland, well Ruth probably will want to rename the party the Ruth Davidson party but the rest of them won’t have that because poor old Ruth has become almost as toxic as Theresa May was and her sectarian leanings have become too obvious even for the Scottish press to keep hiding for her
So maybe a leadership contest in Scotland as well eh
I’ll start, Annie Wells 5/1 a definite contender with Jamie Greene right behind her behind on 6/1
The only time some people applied for a postal vote. They were going on holiday. The forms did not come. It was Douglas Alexander that organised it? Phoned the Council. They had received enough printed forms. It arrived after the election.
Nicola is the FM for the whole of Scotland. She has to be civil to represent everyone. It is the ministerial code of conduct. She went right on to criticise the whole situation. Sometimes you have to read between the lines.
The Tories in Scotland will get oblivion along with the rest of them. Doubt if anything will save them. What an absolutely appalling mess. What a joke. They are the laughing stock of the world. People were actually laughing instead of crying at their antics. Farague stuck in a bus by people with milkshakes. May hiding. A Tory stuck in a toilet surrounded by journalists. A total farce.
The next Prime Minister will be chosen by the members of the Tory Party! This is democracy?
Will the Scottish Government act to save Scotland?
Robert Peffers @ 6:54…
“Now I will explain that claim for you. The UK, EU, United Nations and most other international bodies have all signed up to the Human Rights charters. One such prime Human Right is for any easily identified body of people to have the inalienable right of Self Determination”.
I’ll tell you what’s “pure mince” Robert, the idea that, as in the case of the Spanish Government’s treatment of Catalonia and its democratically elected officials, ANY of the signatories to that charter give a shit for Scotland, its democratically elected officials or its people.
Do you see anyone holding Madrid’s feet to the fire? I don’t!
Dave McEwan Hill says:
24 May, 2019 at 5:41 pm
Can I take my clothes of now?
No! You have been told this so many times before.
Sgt pecker,Dunoon Police Station
Robert Peffers @6:54
Robert,
An excellent reminder for us all. We should explain this regularly and loud and clear. It needs to become a part of common knowledge North and South.
Meantime, I see so many false posters and false twitters around. It’s clear that over the last few years the SNP and the YES movement generally have been infiltrated. Nope.. Its not paranoia.
So we have Faragism and / or Borisism to deal with going forward. Both loose cannons who will not consider the consequences of a diplomatic reply to Scotland. It will make May’s “Now is not the time.” feel polite. So we need to be ready with an equally robust strategy when dealing with these guys.
Scotland needs to get politically brutal in our dealings with Westminster. We should be asking formally for the EU to give an answer on Scotland staying in the EU. If where they don’t give it due to diplomatic niceties, we should be formally complaining to the UN.
The gloves are going to have to come off to deal with the blaggards and the liars that are going to power next.
BBC Reporting Scotland
Nothing but a Tory/Britnat political broadcast. Non stop wall to wall Tories.
Ross Thomson features but no question about his alleged sexual assault in the Hof Commons.
Andrew Bowie Tory MP and the Maybot’s tea boy confirms she is a human being and not a robot.
Truthless Davidson once again is not asked about dark money.
Michael Gove MP gets a spot as does Colin Clark MP saying a fresh face is required.
4 youngTories from Moray interviewed and the prize for the most stupid comment is the person who said she wants Cameron to come back as leader.
Douglas Ross MP ( the unbiased linesman) states the obvious – the numbers in HOC do not change.
Glen Campbell the Britnat correspondent for Reporting Scotland must have the whole Tory party in Scotland in his phone contacts.
Andy McIver former Tory strategist is then also interviewed suggesting the unionist Tory party in Scotland should go for independence from the British Tory unionist party. No question put to him re how a unionist party can go for its own independence but Scotland as a nation cannot.
Tory councillor Meghan Gallagher (called up and coming by the fawning Andrew Kerr) says the Maybot was just unfortunate and praises her. She says the Maybot has done a good job.
Reporting Scotland the programme that can find fault with every sector of Scotlands workforce cannot bring itself to ask difficult questions of these Tories never mind criticise the Tory party for the mess it has created. Nothing but a fawning Party broadcast. These people have no shame. They are propagandists not journalists.
Reporting Scotland call the Tory leadership contest “the race for succession” as if a monarch is being appointed. I prefer to call it the Battle of the Bastards.
Robert Knight @7:19
There is a massive difference between Scotland’s claim to break the Union and Catalonia’s claim for Independence.
Scotland has a prima facie case to claim independence.
Cubby @7:31
The BBC will never change. The only thing that can change is people not paying the licence. One would hope that not a single Winger pays after the way this institution has been shown time and time again to be the enemy. The BBC are not on our side. They are not neutral.
Stop watching. Stop paying. Start ignoring.
@Capella says: 24 May, 2019 at 4:00 pm:
” … I think there is zero chance of a general election in the foreseeable future. Both Labour and Tory are so low in the polls that Nigel Farage could easily become the next Prime Minister if they put it to the English electorate.”
All very well, Capella but have a read at this cut and pasted from the government archive pages:-
The bolding is by me. As examples of this – upon war being declared either by the UK or against the UK – the first action is for the monarch, (probably under advice from The Privy Council), to summon someone to her/his Majesty’s Presence and commands that person to form his/her majesty’s cross-party War Cabinet.
I just don’t understand why a few individuals on here feel the need to jump down anyone’s throat the second they express a restlessness with an apparent lack of progress, when it is staringly obvious that there is a considerable number of genuine supporters of independence, including many who are members of the SNP, who feel this way. Trying to enforce some invented rigid party orthodoxy like self-appointed thought police is hardly a great inducement to believing that an independent Scotland would be a tolerant place. They make it sound frighteningly like the former late-unlamented GDR. Not a good look.
We need open debate if we are to move forward. I think Peter Bell – also an SNP member, incidentally – put it well his latest blog, in which he said the SG have to shed a “petitioning mentality”, in which it – rightly or wrongly – gives the impression that by its attitude it remains at the mercy of events dictated by London. Events that are not very likely to work in our favour. What some of us are simply wishing for is an attitude shift and some means of regaining the initiative, as we seemed to have in the spring of 2017.
It may not be an easy thing to arrange, but nothing is served by gratuitously insulting people for quite reasonably wishing it. It is by such pressure that democratic institutions adapt to real challenges and thrive.
link to peterabell.blog
@Scozzie says: 24 May, 2019 at 4:03 pm:
” … Please don’t waste this time…a Donald Tusk statement but the indy movement must shout this load and clear to the SNP.
There simply cannot be any more faffing around.”
Tell us, Scozzie, whose opinion is it that the First Minister and the SNP have been, or are, faffing about”?
Are we to take it as read that YOU, or those you quote, are better informed or better qualified to decide Scotland’s future that the Scottish Government democratically chosen by the majority of the Scottish electorate?
Nicola Sturgeon is a qualified lawyer and she has teams of both Scottish Government lawyers and SNP party legal advisors. These people are all fully qualified – are you?
@mac7.34pm
Robertknight know that, he has been told literally hundreds of times.
No prizes for knowing what robertknight is…clue: he is a Nationalist, but not like us, he is a very ‘different’ version.
1
Maria F says:
24 May, 2019 at 4:46 pm
How can we ever “revoke A50” Breeks, when WE have never triggered it or given democratic consent for it to be triggered in the first place?
Essentially we’re saying the same thing… delegitimise Scotland’s Brexit on Constitutional grounds, whether that means revoking Article 50, or discrediting the action of submitting Article 50, the effect is the hopefully the same. Brexit against the will of the Scottish people is ultra vires… action without authority.
I think the best route is to revoke Article 50, because at the time Article 50 was submitted, the EU and Westminster itself, saw Westminster as the sovereign UK Interlocutor, and that prevailing view was not adequately disputed by Scotland. To that extent, Brexit so far, including Article 50, has been conducted as entirely “due” process according to established conventions. What we have to change or discredit those “established” conventions, and in their place, establish the convention whereby Scottish Sovereignty has the legitimate capacity to act independently of UK Parliamentary Sovereignty, and hold ascendency over it.
Yes, I think there is a credible argument which Westminster could make, that Scotland’s Sovereignty has been “lent” to Westminster, and by the consent of the people in 2014, but that mandate did not remove sovereignty from the Scottish people, and subsequently Scotland’s rejection of Brexit in the 2016 referendum pit the will of Westminster at odds with the will of the people of Scotland. Since the people of Scotland are sovereign, Westminster has no power to overrule us. Westminster is neither our sovereign, nor the Sovereign arbiter of disagreement.
Technically too, I think revoking Article 50 unilaterally, or at least asking the ECJ to clarify that we can, builds upon the momentum of recently established ECJ judgements; that Scots Law is extant and has Legal Personality already established, and that revocation of Article 50 is a “sovereign” prerogative. To me is seems easier to ask them to clarify a conclusion they have already deliberated, rather than introduce a whole new strategic approach. All the legwork has been done, and some important Constitutional milestones have already been established.
There’s more than one way to skin a cat. I truly wish we’d had more people prepared to articulate suggestions and stimulate constructive dialogue rather than shout down dissent as heresy. Try as I do, I do not warm to this tepid wrangling of an Indyref2 which seems to forfeit so many Constitutional presumptions and has no answer whatsoever to the anti-Scottish BritNat Propaganda and indoctrination which plagues constructive and progressive debate.
I wish we’d play to our strengths for once, not theirs. Tradition would suggest that playing by their rules doesn’t usually end well for Scotland.
@Allan Watson says: 24 May, 2019 at 4:14 pm:
… pinions are like arseholes, everybody’s got one.
Thats mine.”
Yes, Allan, indeed everyone does have one. Unfortunately, though, not all arseholes are not created equal. Furthermore some poor unfortunate people cannot use theirs having had a colostomy. Things are not always as plain as they seem.
To Maria F 24th May 5.27 pm
You may be correct Maria, I don’t think anyone knows the answer ,sending the question to the ECJ May give us answers , if one answer was that there is a risk that asking the question was a confirmation of acceptance that Scotland was represented by Westminster on this matter I’m sure the ECJ would point this out before proceeding to examine revocation.
But in the end who knows for sure ?
@Robert Peffers
Re. Any future referendum, Section 30 or not. You commented on a previous thread about this denial of vote for EU Nationals situation, and that on first appearance it looks suspicious.
Obviously we will have to wait to learn more about what actually caused these problems.
I also have concerns about this situation and mentioned that I’m aware of EU Nationals that had postal votes, and I questioned whether even though they received and sent back their postal ballots, would they actually pass the verification stage and be counted without a UC1 form being completed, and would those voters ever be told if their vote had been denied.
With all that has happened in recent years with dodgy campaign spending, many dubious electoral hiccups, all of which benefit the retention of power towards the status quo. Would it not be incredibly naive to entertain a future Indy vote without external and neutral oversight or control?
It may sound dramatic but we do actually live in an undemocratic rogue state with no properly functioning authority to uphold or properly penalise those that cheat the system.
Now that I’ve typed all that I’ve a recollection there may actually be some wording in one of the Scottish Government bills that eludes to the use of an organisation other than our current Electoral Commission.
@RJS
What “apparent lack of progress” are you wittering on about ?
Nicola Sturgeon has STATED on TV that indyref2 legislation will pass through Holyrood to enable an indyref BEFORE THE END OF THIS PARLIAMENT.
That is EXACTLY what the mandate stated.
There is absolutely ZERO evidence the SNP/Scotsgov are doing nothing nor ‘not enough’.
We mandated the SNP to do a job, they absolutely ARE doing it.
But hey, if they listened to your ilk, they would have spunked the mandate 3 years ago when there were zero ukexit vote effects, the tories and labour still looked semi competent and we really would be looking at ukexit a whole lot differently in 2019.
Today, we have an exit strategy from the Union, one we are currently progressing.
This is not the SNP Scotgovs 1st indy rodeo you know, they delivered in 2014 for us and despite Scotland AS A WHOLE letting them down, they stuck at it to give us another chance to get it right.
Any genuine indy supporter should be VERY grateful to the SNP for that fact alone.
But no, whenever anything happens at WM we get the ‘usual suspects’ denouncing the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon as ‘doing nothing’ or ‘not enough’.
You lot must think we are all daft.
Insidious Creeps abound.
Do we really care as nationalists about who the English Unionists chose for their PM, about their interminable Brexit-waffle or indeed what Nicola Sturgeon tweets about Davidson?
Our leaders might try thinking outside the British box and not allow themselves to be intellectually constrained by its contents, in fact, initiate a new perspective in Scottish politics.
The annoying British ‘earworm’ needs to be neutralized. Stage one, quit Westminster. Stage two, hold an independence referendum. Stage three, enjoy the British state establishment going ballistic about parliamentary sovereignty and ‘illegal’ infringements of its purely fanciful constitution.
If we truly seek independence, we may have to be prepared to seize it.
England is in difficulty, rejoice brothers and sisters!
Boris is coming
Faragism is coming
Brexit is coming
Economic Chaos is coming
Irish unification is coming
USA Rightwing politics are coming
Shortages are coming
Winter will be delayed by global warming.
To geeo your post at 5.45pm 24th May.
Geeo you did not answer the question and have still not answered the question.
Calling me stoopid is not answering the question.
The question was “ what will Nicola Sturgeon do now ?”
Saying you support SNP and support Nicola Sturgeon and you think she should do what she thinks will deliver the 2017 manifesto pledge is still not answering the question
I will repeat the question
What will Nicola Sturgeon do now ?
Good to see you Robert Peffers posting in fine style.
Slightly o/t, earlier this week Steve Clarke was appointed the new Scotland football manager.For all of you who are bored by football wait a minute. It was quite amazing to feel the surge of support and goodwill towards Steve in the hope that he could qualify Scotland for a major tournament final.
Looking at Steve`s record. He played for Scotland as an international player, coached for Chelsea and Liverpool and managed major clubs in England.This is a man of quality who has worked hard and established
He came to Kilmarnock when they were bottom of the league and after about 18 months he has finished 3rd and qualified for Europe without spending any significant amounts of money.
As an old timer, the only comparable manager who achieved similar results I can remember is Jock Stein.HE took Hibs, Dunfermline and Celtic to new heights with the same players purely through his coaching skills.
The support for Clarke from all the Yoon media is very revealing. Everyone is behind Steve to improve Scotland`s results.
Looking forward, can we imagine a similar situation where the TV stations and press supported an independent Scotland. Imagine people could look forward to turning on the 6 o`clock news and hearing all the positive and good things happening in Scotland.
Would mental health problems be reduced? Absolutely,and the whole atmosphere in Scotland would change and we would be looking forward to a more positive and happier future.
Wh
@ronnie anderson says: 24 May, 2019 at 4:35 pm:
… Bill Mc Dermot 2.10pm Belay that pish talk WE Scots dont need a section 30 order to be granted by any future PM.
Ye ken whit, Ronnie? This tellin gadgies aboot Section 30 Order stuff is afu like bangin yer heid again a wa.
It’s afu guid whan ye stoap.
Mac @7.38pm
Been over this ground with others on Wings quite a few times. Why don’t you try thinking why I and some others may still pay the license fee. Why not think about reasons why it is valid to describe the MSM propaganda. Perhaps also think that whether you pay or not will make no difference to the propaganda being churned out by the MSM and Westminster will always fund the BBC.
I am well aware that the BBC are not on our side. Your suggested approach of “ostrich head in the sand” does nothing to benefit the cause of independence IMO.
So I put it to you that you are wrong to patronise me and please do not do so again.
@Maria F says: 24 May, 2019 at 4:46 pm:
…
How can we ever “revoke A50” Breeks, when WE have never triggered it or given democratic consent for it to be triggered in the first place?
Surely the matter here is not to “revoke” A50 on behalf of Scotland but rather to prove that triggering A50 on behalf of “the Uk” with only the consent of the Kingdom of England and with explicit denial of consent by Scotland was illegitimate.
I do not mean “illegitimate” in the eyes of an English supreme court that is not impartial because its existence relies in the preservation of the union and subjugation of Scotland, but rather illegitimate in the eyes of an international, impartial court that sees the treaty of union 1707 for what it really is, an international treaty, not a declaration of surrender.
Great comment, Maria F, and put far more eloquently than I could manage.
To geeo…have you taken your medicine today ?
You have insulted and been rude to these people today just for having an opinion that differs to your narrow opinion
Scozzie 5.56pm
Allan Watson 6.04pm
RJS 8.04pm
To Robert Peffers your post 24th May at 8.15pm
It could be said that by participating in the brexit referendum the Scottish people gave consent to it.
My opinion is that taking part in the brexit referendum was in itself consent for the result to be considered a UK result.
Much as I dislike that conclusion I believe it to be correct.
I think most of the people in Scotland and indeed the UK thought that remain would win easily.
It was a shock to the UK that leave won.
We were all too complacent and walked right into the trap.
@gus1940 says: 24 May, 2019 at 4:47 pm:
” … Why are we having to put up with this liar continuing as PM for weeks possibly months until a new leader is elected.”
I’ll answer both your questions, gus1940.
The reason we have to put up with it is because the official opposition has not done what it should have done months ago – declared no confidence in the PM and the Tory Government and called for a vote upon it.
Thing is that doing so would have led to a GE and Labour are running terrified of that happening for they are every bit as incompetent as the Tories.
@Terry callachan says: 24 May, 2019 at 4:50 pm:
” Nicola Sturgeon will not call a Scottish independence referendum she is tied to requesting an section 30 agreement of Westminster because she is a politician that believes in doing things by the book even if it’s the Westminster book.”
Absolute pish, Terry, but there really is no point in telling you that for you know it already.
Callachan 8.08pm
If you want to know “what WILL Nicola do next”? then maybe you should ask the ONLY PERSON who can answer that question.
Nicola Sturgeon.
Here you go:
link to parliament.scot
I have fully answered your question, despite you not giving 2 hoots if anyone else answers it, despite them ACTUALLY HAVING complaints about her supposed lack of action.
No doubt you will simply repeat, treeza maybot style, that I “still didnt answer the question” but hey, as I said previously, I cannot actually MAKE YOU UNDERSTAND WRITTEN WORDS.
Perhaps take a night class at your local college ?
Who knows, who cares, frankly.
Callachan @8.16pm.
If you are going to try have a pop at someone for being “rude” to others, perhaps leading your own comment with abusive text, is not the best looking strategy?
Comedy gold.
To cubby… your post of 8.12pm 24th May
What a strange request ?
Asking Mac why doesn’t he think about why you and some others still pay the license fee ?
Why would he or anyone else think about why you are paying the BBC license fee when you can simply tell him why ?
Do you honestly expect people to guess why you are still paying the BBC license fee ? there could be dozens of reasons , all he said is he thinks people should stop paying it, a valid point undeserving of your condescending response.
And what’s with the “ostrich head in the sand “ insult ?
Really is that your contribution here on wings ?
Is that kind of response going to encourage people to discuss and vote for Scottish independence ?
You and geeo need to rethink your strategy
Believe it not people on wings are actually allowed to have different opinions to you , yes incredible isn’t it ? what’s more they are deserving of peace to state them without playground insults of the kind you and your pal geeo sling around every day
Change
Promote encourage praise and look to reach agreement
It’s the way forward
geeo @ 20:04,
You can argue black is white until you are blue in the face, Mr. Inquisition, but you can’t change the plain fact that many supporters of independence are restless. Are they all utterly deluded?
The SG may be achieving wonders “behind the Arras”, but that’s not the point. It’s public perceptions that count. People need to be inspired to turn out in large numbers to vote, for example. That was the mistake of 2017. It seems that in your insufferable rigid complacency you haven’t learnt a whit from that lesson.
The Tories are in absolute meltdown, yet here we are still hanging on to their agenda, it seems. And so it seems to a whole lot of people, whether you like it or not.
Try reading Peter Bell’s blog and THINKING, instead of just shouting everyone down.
To geeo..your post 8.33pm 24th May
Come on geeo you have to admit you are not blessed with patience and understanding of others views , that in itself can be tolerated but insulting people and being rude to them is not a winning formula.
You spend a lot of time on wings , you could be of great assistance to people looking for answers and others looking for a friendly ally but it has to be done in a helpful way.
@Terry callachan says: 24 May, 2019 at 4:59 pm:
” … Geeo, mr caithness wasn’t demanding Nicola Sturgeon do anything
All he said was “ let’s see what Nicola Sturgeon does now“
Several things were said at Spring Conference, Terry, pity you, and some others, don’t know what they were.
Mind you, if you choose to believe only what the MSM tells you, or rather doesn’t tell you, then do not blame Nicola or the SNP for you being rather misinformed.
For heaven’s sake Iain Blackford has been yelling it out in the Westminster debating chamber during just about every debate, “Scotland will not be dragged out of the EU against her will”.
Nicola has said, on more than one occasion recently, “There will be another independence referendum, with or without a Section 30 Order”.” Do you think she is lying to you? Perhaps you just choose to ignore her like MSM and broadcasters do.
To Robert peffers your post 8.28pm 24th May
I disagree with you Robert , I do firmly believe that Nicola Sturgeon is in love with politicking by the book even if it’s Westminster’s book , it’s why she is still toddling along the road of getting Westminster agreement to a Scottish independence referendum.
Proof will be that no matter how bad things get she will not announce one until Westminster agree to recognize the validity of its result.
To geeo. Your post at 8.28pm 24th May
And still you do not answer the question which is..
“what do you think Nicola Sturgeon will do next”
Come on geeo tell us what YOU think she will do next
You shot down James caithness for asking the question “what will Nicola Sturgeon do next”
But you can’t answer the question yourself
This is typical of what you do every day geeo
You are rude and bombastic to other people on wings and then when asked to answer the very question you shot down you are unable to do so
result ..FAIL
To Robert peffers your post at 8.46pm 24th May
I know what was said at spring conference
Can’t comment for “others”
I agree , if I or others decide only to believe what MSM tell us or don’t tell us we should not blame Nicola Sturgeon or SNP if we become misinformed, the good news is, I don’t believe what the MSM says and I don’t blame Nicola Sturgeon or SNP
As for saying there will be another Scottish independence referendum with or without a section 30 order one thing she missed out was “when” and that is because she has no intention of holding a referendum without Westminster’s agreement and that rules out holding one without a section 30 order , the Scottish government is signed up to adherence to rules and regulations of British government and will follow said rules and regulations even though they impede Scotland progress you see this every time you watch Westminster’s Scottish questions
I don’t like it but I agree with her doing it because any referendum held that is not agreed by Westminster would be deemed invalid that is just the way it is , you may not like it or agree that it is so and I commend you for your fighting talk but it’s worthless, sorry to be so blunt
An inconvenient truth about the origins of the Brexit vote. Deeply embedded in delusions of Empire, externalising blame, in denial about the consequences of poor economic choices and punitive domestic policies.
As WM grip tightens on a hard Brexit, Scotland should power up and prise itself from the demented grip of WM.
‘Britain’s relative economic decline occurred in tandem with the loss of almost all of its remaining colonies in the 1970s and the economic benefit they had provided. The British thought that joining the European Economic Community in 1973 could replace this loss. It didn’t, because the European relationship was mutual, rather than exploitative…The Brexit campaign was a useful diversion from growing economic inequality in Britain and the lack of any plan to address this great injustice. But the realities of leaving the EU are beginning to sink in…
There is now growing inequality in the UK’s already terribly divided school education system as a result of cuts to state school funding – a real terms cut since 2015 of £5.4 billion. The health service is struggling as real costs far outstrip any funding increases, and a housing crisis led to a threefold to tenfold rise in the numbers of people sleeping on the streets between 2010 and 2018. The latest official figures suggest the number of people sleeping rough in England fell by 74 between 2017 and 2018. The huge real increase resulted in a rise in numbers found dead…
Being a member of the EU was not the cause of the UK’s woes, neither was immigration. If the British really want to take back control they will need to reassess their more recent history. Knowledge is power’
link to theconversation.com
@Brian says: 24 May, 2019 at 5:11 pm:
… Sturgeon should not be thanking May for ANYTHING.
Oh! For heaven’s sake! Of course she should. It is called diplomacy and everyone knows it is no more than that. However, in May’s case Nicola has lots to be thankful for from Theresa May.
There are few, if any, why have done so much for Scottish Independence than has Theresa May. It’s just that when World Leaders die or are ouster from office it is the done thing to say something nice about them. Everyone knows it’s claptrap.
I’ll give you an example, (but not of a political nature).
We had a old English person as our chargehand and I had a workmate who always referred to the chargehand as, “A fine old English Gentleman”.
One day as the workmate and I were walking up the Generating Station stairs to the control room the chargehand yelled at us to come back down as he had an urgent job for us. The workmate replied, “Right away, Charlie, you fine old English Gentleman”.
At this point Charlie went rather red in the face and yelled, “I know every time you tell me I’m a fine old English Gentleman you really mean I’m a rotten old English bastard”.
See what I mean about diplomacy?
We all knew, including Charlie, that what he suspected was true – but that’s diplomacy for you.
To Robert peffers your post of 8.46pm 24th May
Hi again Robert
S30 order. You may have read this already perhaps not but I think it explains in excellent format just why a Scottish independence referendum will not be done without Westminster’s agreement
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
Terry Callachan taking the same line that Rock used to take.
Terry Callachan@8.35pm
Callachan what’s it got to do with you. Mac addressed his comments directly to me. But out prat.
There is no Geeo and me. Got it. There is no strategy. Got it. You are just a shit stirrer as can be seen by your comments all over this thread.
Why don’t you try explaining how your considerable number of anti English racist posts On Wings help the cause of independence.
In 2008, Northern Rock, RBS, HBOS and other UK banking institutions seemed destined to fail, largely due to criminal behavior.
80% of losses were attributed to their London and foreign based businesses.
The Westminster government intervened and bailed out the banks.
But in doing so Alistair Darling and Gordon Brown lumbered Scots with repayment of massive debt, added to with extortionate interest charges.
The UK government’s bail out had also lead to the reclassification of banks as “public sector assets.”
In consequence public sector liabilities increased from 126% of GDP to 335% of GDP between 2007 and 2009. Over 200% !!!!!!!!!!
link to caltonjock.com
@Abulhaq says: 24 May, 2019 at 5:50 pm:
“… A question only answerable after independence, the thing the SNP ‘is for’.”
And there it is the reason you are way, way wrong. Certainly the SNP, as a political party has its main reason to exists as seeking independence for Scotland. However, Nicola Sturgeon has two responsibilities. If you like she wears two hats.
As the leader of the SNP, (a political party dedicated to winning Scotland’s independence), she speaks as the party leader, for example at National Conferences.
However, Nicola Sturgeon is also the leader of the Scottish Government and thus has responsibility to speak on behalf of everyone in Scotland whether they voted for the SNP or not.
You may not be aware of the fact that the First Minister of the Holyrood Parliament is NOT chosen as is the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom Parliament.
In the case of Westminster the Queen of England, (note not as the Queen of Scots), summons a person to her presence and commands that person to form, “Her Majesty’s Government of Her Majesty’s United Kingdom”. In practice this is usually the leader of the political party winning most seats but is actually chosen by the Privy Council.
At Holyrood the entire parliament, (that is all political parties), vote to choose the First Minister of the Scottish parliament. Thus Nicola, as FM, serves all Scotland and not just the SNP.
Which is why Nicola told Spring Conference that there would be an indyref 2, with or without a Section 30 Order and, of course, why the SMSM and state funded or/and controlled broadcasters did not report it. So, if you do not believe me then all you need do is watch a video clip of Nicola’s Spring conference speeches.
It could not be plainer. Blackford stands up in Westminster during almost every sitting and declares, “Scotland will not be dragged out of the EU against the people of Scotland’s wishes”, and Nicola has stated at conference and elsewhere that there will be another indyref with or without a Section 30 Order.
Yet we are regaled by numpties here on Wings saying exactly the opposite. Ask yourself why? Ask it especially when they are told, over and over again that no one needs Westminster’s permission to run a referendum as doing so is not illegal and that the SNP and the First Minister have said there will be a second referendum with or without a section 30.
Nobody expects …
Mac@7:34
People seem to place a great deal in to the whole Act of Union being an international treaty from which Scotland can simply rise from its ashes as though it “has a prima facie case to claim independence”.
I’d have a great deal more faith in that position had the SNP led Scottish Government, at any time since 2007, taken the UK Government to task over the countless breaches of the Articles of the Treaty of Union which have taken place since being ratified by the 1707 Acts. Breaches which, under Article 3, include the very creation of a Scottish Parliament itself. But then, the Constitution is a reserved matter and, as has been demonstrated, Westminster can kick anything it likes into the long grass of the UKSC and in the interim pass legislation which frustrates any Holyrood Bill before it reaches Royal Assent.
The method of secession has already been demonstrated by what is now the Republic of Ireland; namely the Irish Free State Constitution Act 1922, which ratified the Anglo-Irish Treaty of the previous year. The difference is however that the Irish took to the streets with rifles and grenades and a war-weary British Government didn’t have the stomach for a physical fight.
Today, we only have the ballot box and, as with Catalonia, I fear the international community would simply look the other way if Westminster ignored the result, or behaved in a Madrid-like manner towards us.
There are some who say we don’t need a Section 30 Order. They may be right. But without it…
PS…geeo…Roaster!
I can understand the Rev’s dilemma here. It was Lib Dem for me but with no great conviction.
Who did you vote for in Scotland if you a) want an independent Scotland but b) refuse to deny the existence of your own genitals?
@Robert Louis says: 24 May, 2019 at 6:50 pm:
” … Totally, totally agree.”
But then you would say that, wouldn’t you?
” … She needs condemned for the vile creature she is, not thanked.”
Indeed – why then are YOU not doing so as yourself instead of taking such great pleasure in condemning Nicola Sturgeon who, as the leader of a government, is constrained by diplomatic protocols. Now I may be wrong but it seems to me you seek out each, and every, opportunity to strike a blow for the unionists against Nicola, the SNP and the SG. Now why would that be the apparent case?
@mike cassidy says: 24 May, 2019 at 6:52 pm:
” … Conspiracy or cockup?
A mixture, I suspect.”
If ever there was a more blatant conspiracy to bias a vote in my lifetime I cannot recall any more blatant.
Just as an aside to my last… From the BBC (puke…)
“The UN has passed a resolution demanding the UK return control of the Chagos Islands to Mauritius.
In the non-binding vote in the General Assembly in New York, 116 states were in favour and only 6 against, a major diplomatic blow to the UK.
Fifty-six states, including France and Germany abstained.
Mauritius says it was forced to give up the Indian Ocean group – now a British overseas territory – in 1965 in exchange for independence.
In a statement to the BBC, the UK’s Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) said Britain did not recognise Mauritius’ claim to sovereignty, but would stand by an earlier commitment to hand over control of the islands to Mauritius when they were no longer needed for defence purposes”.
Now, imagine if you would…
The UN has passed a resolution demanding the UK recognise the result of the 2020 Scottish Independence Referendum.
In the non-binding vote in the General Assembly in New York, 116 states were in favour and only 6 against, a major diplomatic blow to the UK.
Fifty-six states, including France, Germany and Spain abstained.
Scotland says it was forced to hold what the UK considers to be an ‘illegal’ referendum – a Section 30 Order required to legally recognise the outcome of the referendum was denied by the UK – in 2020, following the breakdown of talks between the Scottish Government, formed by pro-independence parties, and the UK Government, led by Prime Minister Boris Johnson.
In a statement to the BBC, the UK’s Home Office (HO) said the UK did not recognise the outcome of the referendum, but would stand by an earlier commitment to enter into discussions relating to a future relationship between Scotland and the UK, when UK control over what are considered to be Scottish territorial waters were no longer needed for economic, strategic and defence purposes.
As with the Chagos, what will/would happen next?
May gone. No Brexit. Nicola still there.
‘Two doors down’. Hilarious
‘Yet we are regaled by numpties here on Wings saying exactly the opposite. Ask yourself why? Ask it especially when they are told, over and over again that no one needs Westminster’s permission to run a referendum as doing so is not illegal and that the SNP and the First Minister have said there will be a second referendum with or without’
Maybe they keep asking questions because the answers they get here are inadequate propaganda by an increasingly desperate SNP party machine trying to appease, not only the wider Indy movement, but their own supporters and members.
Just because you say the same thing over and over again does not mean it is correct or satisfies those asking the questions. For those getting angry at the the restless Indy supporters, you are not providing satisfactory answers, you are merely repeating your own beliefs. Why should those asking the questions have to provide the answers too? The SNP were elected on a manifesto to provide a referendum if there was material change. How much needs to change for them to act?
The SNP hierarchy APPEAR to be resting on their laurels waiting for others to deliver Independence while they fritter away their time berating their loyal supporters for intemperate Internet behaviour or denying that people can change their natal sex.
I say APPEAR because we will be told again that behind the scenes their is frantic activity because, well, because some people here want to believe that.
Why should Indy supporters who have reservations about Nicola Sturgeon refrain from voicing them here? Why are some here so unable to accept criticism not of them personally but of an elected official who seems to be stuck trying to appease the British State while opportunities fly past? Are they so unsure of their party leader’s ability that they cannot deal with a little uncomfortable questioning?
The apologists here sound like those trying to make Theresa May sound human -‘She is doing her best’ ‘She was doing what she believed in’.
In years to come the best opportunity in history will have been seen to have evaporated because we waited for someone to act decisively.
@robertknight says: 24 May, 2019 at 7:19 pm:
… I’ll tell you what’s “pure mince” Robert, the idea that, as in the case of the Spanish Government’s treatment of Catalonia and its democratically elected officials, ANY of the signatories to that charter give a shit for Scotland, its democratically elected officials or its people.
Do you see anyone holding Madrid’s feet to the fire? I don’t!”
Nah! You are not going to tell me anything except you wouldn’t know mince if it jumped up and bit you on the bum and this comment from you proves it.
You ask if I see any of the signatories of the charter giving a shit and the answer is, as I’ve several times already shown here on Wings, is yes I do.
First, though, be clear that the EU works by democracy and consensus. It does not even attempt to tell or force member states into doing anything. For example how long has Sweden NOT used the Euro yet Sweden has been an EU state since day one.
So just examine how things worked out in regards to Spain and the Catalonian situation. The Catalan politicians that fled to other member states, including to the UK and Germany, were subject to the courts in those states and NOT extradited to be tried under Spanish Law.
Now the EU must not interfere publicly in a member states internal business but they bring pressure to bear behind the scenes and within the last couple of weeks those Catalan politicians were allowed by Spain to stand as candidates in Spanish elections. That is a far cry from what Spain was going to do to them when they were about to try them in Spanish courts. That is the EU working by consensus.
The EU doesn’t dictate to anyone and in fact has no way in its rules to do so. Yet it is the largest and most successful trading block in the World. Not even the USA or China can come even close.
Now again as to Scotland and independence. Anyone can follow the happenings in the EU debating chamber and can see with their own eyes that there is a great love of Scotland right across the EU. Thing is they show it in other ways but cannot make any outward statements against, “The UK”, because the UK, not Scotland, is the member state. Yet they often show their frustration, distrust and dislike of Westminster MEPs in their reactions in the Chamber.
If you were daft enough to expect the EU member states to officially speak out against either Spain or Brexit Britain you are being extremely naïve.
Have a wee look at this YouTube clip to see what they think of Scotland:-
link to youtube.com
There is another YouTube clip of the same standing ovation for Smyth that showed what went on immediately before Smyth spoke. It showed the Europeans getting at Farage and just as passionately booing him as they were in cheering and clapping Smyth. The EU bears no resemblance to how Westminster works(correction – doesn’t work).
BTW: The EU has stated that Scotland will have no problems with EU membership as Scots are already EU citizens and if they do not remain in the EU will be immediately made a member state if becoming independent.
BTW: The United Nations has several times condemned the UK for how it treats its citizens and for austerity and killing people. It has also given them a time limit to get out of the Chagos Islands.
Now why do you not know these things?
The SNP members fund the Party The SNP do not have the funds to fight two or three campaigns at a time. Otherwise they could lose both, They have to fight one campaign at a time.
Ie An EU election. Then a possible GE. Etc.
There will be no Brexit. Just a complete shambles.
The circumstances are changing daily. In the present shambles it is possible some people will not vote for Independence, until there is some stability.
What’s the point in calling an IndyRef and then having to postpone it. For a GE. If the resources are extended too far.
The best time to have an IndyRef is when it can be won. The demographics are changing all the time. A change in Westminster could be the catalyst to change. Scotland is going it’s own way in any case.
Stop blaming the SNP all the time. The members are doing all they can. Donating, funding, canvassing and campaigning. Why don’t some folk help instead of criticising all the time. It is so annoying.
This thread is full of Britnats. That’s the truth and nothing but my truth.
@Robert J. Sutherland says: 24 May, 2019 at 7:38 pm:
” I just don’t understand why a few individuals on here feel the need to jump down anyone’s throat the second they express a restlessness with an apparent lack of progress,
Aye! Well that only demonstrates that the reason you cannot understand why certain individuals, (who I note you are also far too shy to name), feel the need to jump down anyone’s throat is because you quite obviously cannot tell the difference between restlessness and downright criticism of the FM herself, the Scottish government, (who, being the Scottish Government, have a quite different function than the political party that is the SNP), and being, “restless”.
Just get this straight from one who has waited and fought for Scottish independence for all of 71 years. You do not get more restless than that knowing you may never make it to an independent Scotland but that is far from a constant dirge of Scottish Government BAAAD! SNP afu BAAAD! Nicola Sturgeon afu, afu, afu, afu BAAAAAAAADDDDDD!
It’s O.K. though, we do know what your game is and it ain’t LUDO or Snakes & Ladders.
Oh! And I forgot to mention – Anyone who dares to criticise those who criticise the FM, SG and SNP are afu, afu, afu, afu, BAAAAAADDDDD!
If you arses were to spend just a fraction of the time you spend running down the only people ever likely to gain our independence boosting the moral of the lurking wingers we might just get a few more soft no voters convinced to the benefits of ending the union.
Cubby@12.10am
Yup, and their desperation is obvious.
They lost a leader today, they are clearly gutted.
Robert Peffers @ 00:19:
I wasn’t singling anyone out, as it happens, just making a generic point, but the usual suspects were happy to self-identify for the benefit of us all. (Not that we’re surprised at who popped out of the woodwork.)
But since you’re throwing mealy-mouthed implications around here, Puffer, maybe you can take your own advice and be explicit about “what my game is”? And let there be no doubt that I am very protective of my good reputation and my fundamental committment to independence.
So go on, what is “my game”, pray…?
The best people to govern Scotland are the people of Scotland
Simple
For those demanding an indyref immediately, seem to be ignoring the huge elephant in the room:
We are still behind in the opinion polls!
Yes we are slowly but surely getting closer to parity, but surely anyone who supports independence can see, that if we ‘hold the line’ for a little longer we should start to see Yes going ahead in the polls.
I know there is an argument about how polls can be manipulated, but the Polls I’m really talking about are the SNP’s own internal polling that will be informing them with a good level of accuracy, just how the voters are feeling.
We need patience right now, we have waited 300 years so a little while longer won’t hurt us, but going too soon might just do more harm than good.
Make no mistake, it’s coming soon!
Message to all the phoney Scottish independence supporting Britnats who post on Wings. Scottish independence is coming and it won’t be long.
What you gonna do then? I know – move on to try and stop Wales from becoming independent.
Your British empire is just about finished. Westminster is digging its grave and is too full of arrogance to stop digging.
Cubby @ 8:12
Yawn.
Westminster will never agree to a Section 30 again. Cameron only agreed the first time because he miscalculated that Yes would be humiliated. They were terrified by the 45%, and even more terrified the week before hence the purdah breaking vow and propaganda blitz.
Now they know they can lose the next Indyref they simply won’t agree to one. Full stop. And we will win next time. We will win the campaign again and get a big swing to us again, only starting from a much much higher base than the 30% we started from last time.
There will never be another 2014 style referendum. The British state just will not agree. It is either a referendum organised without their permission, or an election fought on the declaration that if we win we will declare Independence.
Now is the time to strike, The UK state is in total disarray.
‘The apologists here sound like those trying to make Theresa May sound human -‘She is doing her best’ ‘She was doing what she believed in’.
Nicola Sturgeon (for 5 years now) and more ‘saliently’ the SNP have governed Scotland for the past 12 years.
The only people on these threads in the last few weeks that have been attempting to ‘change the narrative’ wrt to the SNP’s ongoing stance wrt ‘timing’ of Indy2 have been those who’s motives are far from representative of the majority of those who support the SNP’s position wrt to Brexit.
It’s not about ‘criticising Nicola’, it’s about the quite sudden appearance of Johnny come lately’s who appear to think that ‘they’ have any clearer vision to offer wrt to Indy2 timing. They don’t.
Over the past few years it’s certainly been very clear that ‘material change of circumstance’ ignite’s the torch, but as everyone well knows, that material change has not happened…yet.
If the SNP had listened to those impatient voices right up until 29th March and Indy2 had indeed been in process out of a sense of sheer panic before that ‘end date’, then where would we actually be now?
There are no apologists but there are a very few voices ‘asserting’ that others who disagree wi their ‘panic’ are apologists, and you RtT are one of those new voices that have appeared on these threads of late asserting strongly that those who disagree with ‘your’ take are apologists for NS or the SNP.
Nicola Stugeon and T May are not comparable in any way shape or form. May has barely lasted 3 years as PM, her and her party’s policies are ‘hostile’ in every sense of that word to sections of society that ‘they’ deem are unworthy of care, they have maintained austerity policies with the help of Labour that are drawing UN criticism for the harm they have and are continuing to cause upon the most vulnerable and poorest sections of our society.
Nicola Sturgeon has been FM for nearly 5 years now, the SNP as mentioned above for 12 years. We don’t have to make her ‘sound human’ because she is human. And under the most severe post war crisis that the UK has ever faced she’s doing some fucking job to make sure the people of Scotland are not subject to the same suicidal conditions that are being imposed from that cabal at Westminster. It’s unsustainable we all know that these policies cannot be mitigated indefinitely and that Westminster wishes to play the ‘long game’ to destroy ‘the SNP’ but they first have to destroy the voters confidence in voting for them?
And this is where I feel strongly people like you come in to play on these btl forums that support the proposition of Scotland’s independence. Pushing a narrative of dissent from what ‘you perceive’ as ‘non dissenting’ supporters of the SNP.
But here is the trouble with that ‘take’, no one but people like you have any alternative to voting for the SNP in Scotland?
There is nowhere else for independence supporters to go and there is nowhere else for those who do not believe that May and her ilk will ever represent ‘their’ outlook.
There is no Labour Party in Scotland for we have destroyed them, not the SNP, but the people who for generations supported Labour will never return to that party.
Those who voted for the Tories in 2017 GE in Scotland where the rump remainder of those diehard unionists in the Labour fold who jumped ship and that is the only reason and the dark money thrown at that campaign by the Tories that allowed them to get their bakers dozen into Westminster.
I speak only for myself. I’m not an SNP member nor a member of any other party. Nicola Surgeon is doing what ‘we’ believe is best for our polity, and that means ‘all’ of Scotland. She and the party are there because ‘we’ put them there and unless anyone has any alternative to the reality we are all faciing; new Tory leader Brexiteered to the hilt with huge swathes of England driving the UK toward No deal and further right wing polices post Brexit, then I suggest they are the ones who are apologists for those conditions and by pushing for the SNP to ‘do’ something out of some ‘concern’ that they aren’t doing enough, it is their ‘agenda’ that must be scrupulously scrutinised and questioned.
If all you have in answer to that is ‘you are an apologist’ for the SNP or NS, then it becomes clear that you are not here to debate but to create false equivalences and treat people as if they are idiots who can’t comprehend when someone is ‘at it’.
Over 300 hundred years, the first time in that history that we will have 2 chances to decide in the space of 10 years. I don’t understand the impatience. For the previous 300 hundred years our ancestors put up wi far worse than any of of us have ever lived through.
So be content to have a soft pillow for your head at night, a warm shower to clean your body and food to eat whenever you want. We will fucking do this and we will do it right not because you or I had anything to do with any of it but because as a polity we stick together long enough to see it through…peacefully.
It is coming and coming soon. Of that there is No doubt.
treeza may is gone as is her deal.
nicola said that we would be offered a vote once we know what brexit actually means
i dunno if bojo will win and become pm, but im fairly certain that a no deal, erg, 1922 commitee (bastards as john major called the) will win
the only way this new pm will get no deal through the hoc’s is to remove all of the soft brexit and remainerss in his party is to call a ge and physically replace them with no deal candidates (nigel farage would be a shoo in)
a no deal tory leader will unite the brexit voters with tory voters in england but it will split the scottish tories down the middle.
so once bojo is elected, the scottish voters will have some clarity as to what brexit actually means, ie, if the tories win in england at least, brexit will mean no deal.
we will start to see a swing to yes at this point, the only question is by how much.
the snp should be ready for this
1. continue to promote remainer policies, eg PV etc
2. continue in this vein until bojo is elected, has called the ge and all the parties have produced their manifestos
3. then produce ours, change tact and go all out for indy. we didnt campaign for indy in 2015 or 2017. this should change and indy should be the sole focus of our manifesto, eg
vote YESNP FOR AN INDY SCOTLAND
no ifs no buts etc, we may not win 50%, but while the unionists can refuse referendums, they cant refuse elections. if and when bojo wins the election, things will only go downhill for the union from that point onward. we sit for a few months, watch support for yes continue to rise, then call a holyrood election.
bear in mind, every election going forward will be an indy election. and even if we dont achieve 50%, the snp will still be the biggest party in scotland.
we wont go away. ever
@craig murray@1.28am says: It is either a referendum organised without their permission, or an election fought on the declaration that if we win we will declare Independence.
……
Sorry, when did we need “their permission” to hold an indyref ?
Without WM involvement is perhaps a better phrase, no ?
As for an election win (30 seats) then calling it as indy, how does Scots Sovereignty fit into that scenario if vote share is under 50% ?
Thatcher only said that as a mocking tactic as she never imagined SNP ever getting a Scottish seat majority, it was never a real thing cast in stone tablets nor was it ever legitimate premise.
What if there is not a GE election before the next Holyrood election, then what ?
That will be the non S.30 indyref yes ?
So, since we agree that is an actual legit option, why not reserve the right to hold a protective political dissolution motion at Holyrood, to dissolve the union to protect Scots from the immediate danger posed by ANY ukexit including Scotland, but caveat it with a pledge to hold an affirmation plebiscite later, to keep on board with the Sovereignty question ?
We elected the SNP Scotsgov to protect our interests, at Holyrood and WM, and the Holyrood parliament has also agreed to a new indyref by majority.
That makes my suggestion legitimate surely ?
K1 @ 2.20
Inspirational
geeo @ 3.00am
There’s still a bit of the Westminster farce to play out yet..
They haven’t had a Queens speech in the longest time and we’re hearing rumblings about this!!
The point being — Westminster will weaken even further —
How long can they avoid this?
This matters because,if we had to take other routes to demonstrating our Sovereign will for ending the Treaty other than an agreed referendum,we need to let Westminster establish their “Constitution” is only a plaything that they don’t take seriously, and no great barrier… to … well to anything really.
If Westminster create a loophole,in ignoring that they should be having a Queens speech!
Although not necessarily that,we could run right through!
In the meantime,we will have weeks of tv coverage of the potential new prime minister,not one of whom has much Scottish support… And we’ll not get mentioned/considered..
That’s got to put the Indy vote up!!!
It certainly gives us ammunition on the door step..
K1 @ 2:20
Excellent
@ K1 – good to see it spelt out in words
Craig Murray at 0128am,
Very well said. Their will be no section 30 whilst independence is a realistic possibility. So, the choice is as you state. Either a referendum for the people of Scotland, or the next GE is on declaring independence with a majority of seats. It is pretty obvious really.
It will either be an independence referendum without section 30, or general election – and as regards the latter, it was ALWAYS understood for my whole life (until the SNP unilaterally chose to change it a few years ago), that a majority of seats pro indy, meant independence. It was very straightforward and very clear, even Thatcher said so.
Links
Call to investigate claims of EU voters being denied their right to vote.
link to news.gov.scot
We had arranged to meet @joannaccherry today so here is our interview in two parts – one on EU citizens…
Click on tweets for two parts videos
link to twitter.com
link to twitter.com
link to thoughtcontrolscotland.com
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
link to ruthwishart.scot
Podcast
link to yescowal.scot
link to itisintruthnotforglory.wordpress.com
link to peterabell.blog
link to macalbasite.wordpress.com
link to centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk
link to universalcreditsuffer.com
link to medialens.org
link to politics.co.uk
link to thesecretbarrister.com
link to medium.com
link to rte.ie
link to chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com
link to ukandeu.ac.uk
The Irish Times view: the tragic inadequacy of Theresa May
link to archive.fo
Exit Theresa May. Stand by for a summer of Tory fratricide and country-shafting
link to archive.fo
link to theneweuropean.co.uk
link to huffingtonpost.co.uk
link to independent.co.uk
BBC TV Licences cancelled in 2017 – 798,000 BBC TV Licences cancelled in 2018 – 860,000 BBC TV Licences cancelled in 2019 (Jan – May) – 375,000 (Avg 75,000 per month) BBC slowly coming to the end.
link to twitter.com
Brexit: downfall
link to eureferendum.com
Channel 4 report about Steve Bannon’s school-for-bigots in Italy is gobsmacking. Matt Frei’s interview with Benjamin Harnwell has to be seen to be believed.
link to youtube.com
link to nytimes.com
link to irishpost.com
link to euronews.com
link to theregister.co.uk
link to middleeasteye.net
Geeo at 3am,
Despite being commenced with your usual unnecessary hostility, your suggestion is perfectly sensible.
Great post K1 @0220 a.m. re Nicola Sturgeon “ and under the most severe post war crisis the U.K. has ever faced she’s doing some f…ing job to make sure that the people of Scotland are not subject to the same suicidal conditions being imposed by that cabal at Westminster” .
Agree entirely sir and indeed we owe this lady a debt of gratitude for all she has done for the ordinary people of Scotland past and present. She fully deserves our unconditional support through this critical period of our history , a truly outstanding political leader .
geeo at 0300am,
A serious bit of history revisionism going on there with your comments about Thatcher and pro indy majorities at Westminster. I suppose you, and you alone had that one to one conversation with Thatcher where you discovered that she was just’ goading Scots’, yes??
It wasn’t just Thatcher though, it was widely held as a firm understanding within the SNP, and amongst voters in Scotland that winning a majority of Westminster seats was the recipe for independence. It wasn’t something that just a few people thought, it was a widely held concept in Scotland. I can only assume, you were not actually around at the time. It was NOT a narrowly held opinion or viewpoint. It was widely accepted.
As regards GE voting, you cannot on the one hand have a parliament fought for and elected via number of seats (and NOT vote share), as is the case with westminster elections, then on the other hand just for Scotland say ‘actually in Scotland number of seats doesn’t count, what we need is ‘vote share’.
Such nonsense. Absolute utter nonsense. Mince, even.
K1 at 2.20 am
Thank you.
@Terry callachan says: 24 May, 2019 at 9:36 pm:
” … S30 order. You may have read this already perhaps not but I think it explains in excellent format just why a Scottish independence referendum will not be done without Westminster’s agreement
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com“
I have indeed read that Wee Ginger Dug, article but No, Terry, it doesn’t explain why there won’t be a referendum without anS30 Order. All it does is give one person, (and his dug’s), ideas on the subject. Mind you it does, if memory serves well, also drag in McWhirter’s ideas on the subject as well. Might I point out that neither of them, and the dug, are correct in all they claim and your ideas and my ideas are every bit as valid as theirs. What makes the difference is the logic and legality of the claims being made.
One thing, though, is common to all those opinions and that is one of the legality that what counts is a requirement for a majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland. So let’s just state what the legalities actually are and not what some think and claim they are.
In 1706/7 two equally sovereign kingdoms that had ended up with the same monarch as their king agreed to join in a union. However, those two kingdoms, even although they were equally sovereign, were fundamentally different in that the English kingdom had a legally sovereign monarchy who had legally delegated his sovereignty to the parliament of the Kingdom of England. The Scottish Kingdom had a monarch, (same guy), who was not legally sovereign. You can read about it in the Treaty of Union that states both legal systems must forever remain independent within the new United Kingdom.
I’m going to cut this short as I’ve been over it many, many times. In short on the union coming into action on 1 May 1707 that Kingdom of England parliament at Westminster ceased to exist and has never sat as the legally elected parliament of England ever since.
On 1 May what opened at Westminster was no longer legally the parliament of the Kingdom of England. It was the United Kingdom parliament and as such it was NOTsovereign over the legally sovereign people of Scotland who, to this very day remain legally sovereign IN SCOTLAND
The problem was, and still is, that what opened at Westminster immediately began to act as if it were still the parliament of the Kingdom of England and it continued to use several things that had/have no place under Scottish Law. For example the idea that the parliament had sovereignty over Scotland, Laws passed by Henry VIII, Magna Carta and so on.
According to the Treaty of Union these all, on day one, negated the Treaty of Union and the Westminster Parliament was illegal right from the start. The problem for Scotland is the same today as it was on 1 May 1707. Scotland needed a majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland in order to end the illegal union.
Now some claim that because the people of Scotland accepted the new arrangement it made it legal. This notion is wrong and now I will explain just why it is wrong.
Even before the Union of the Crowns the Scots had officially made, “The Scottish Claim of Right”. This claim of right has since been restated several times and for the latest version you can find the whole thing here:-
file:///C:/Users/setup/AppData/Local/Microsoft/Windows/INetCache/IE/CAIR73MN/CDP-2016-0158.pdf
However it is only the latest re-affirmation of the very same Claim of Right from long before the Union began.
Now here are just a few things that the claim of right means.
The people of Scotland are legally sovereign and sovereignty cannot be given away – it can only be taken from the previous sovereign holder. The people of Scotland have never given up their legal sovereignty and it is the basis of the still independent Scots law.
A sovereign’s word is law and thus a majority of the people of Scotland taking back their independence can never be a UDI. So all this pish about section 30 orders is just that – pish.
There, though, is the SG/SNP dilemma – they need a majority of Scots to claim back their independence and that is not the same thing as getting Westminster’s agreement to run a referendum to get that majority of Scots claiming their Right of Independence. a.k.a. their Claim of Right.
It isn’t rocket Science – but neither is it Westminster propaganda claims. Now note that Westminster has sloped shoulders over the Scottish People’s sovereignty in their own Supreme Court and also in the International courts.
There is every sign that the EU will back Scotland but cannot break their own rules as long as the UK remains the member state. There is also signs that the United Nation is ready to sanction the UK over breaking Human Rights and one important human right is the inalienable human right of Self Determination. It really is as simple as that – the Scots are legally sovereign and thus a majority of them cannot commit UDI but a minority of them can.
Thus the whole idea of an indyref 2 is to get a majority it does not, in itself, gain independence.
It
The clamour for IndyRef2 and its near cult following on here worries me at times.
All the time and effort spent on the see-saw politics of ‘demand’ versus ‘denial’ conveniently, (for Unionists), diverts attention and resources from the simple and effective means of obtaining Independence: >50% of votes AND >50% of seats results in ALL Scottish MPs departing Westminster and talks commencing on an Anglo-Scottish Treaty to dissolve the Union.
As said by Robert Louis, “very straightforward and very clear”.
The independence movement in Quebec effectively died in the tar-pit of their own IndyRef2 in 1995, thanks in no small part to the well documented shenanigans of the ‘No’ campaign. Sound familiar?
We should learn from the Canadian experience and not get drawn in to a cul-de-sac where the likes of Mooth Davidson and Co. can simply keep churning out the same old soundbites about divisive referendums ad-nauseam.
Not only does she turn people off the Tories using such tactics, but she also turns people off from politics AND the prospect of any IndyRef2. It is, after all, what her masters in London have tasked her to do – preserve the Union, whatever the cost to yourself/your party/your country.
We shouldn’t get drawn in to an ‘IndyRef2 or Bust’ mentality. In any future IndyRef2, the British Establishment will concentrate its fire upon us in a far more coordinated manner than in 2014, when ‘Yes’ was not perceived by Cameron etc. as a genuine threat. However, in the ‘fog of war’ of a standard UK General Election, we may stand a better chance of securing victory. As attributed to Sun Tzu; “He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight”.
Have a wee read of this then come on here and say the SNP/SG/FM are doing nothing.
link to snp.org
Robert Louis says:
It will either be an independence referendum without section 30, or general election – and as regards the latter, it was ALWAYS understood for my whole life (until the SNP unilaterally chose to change it a few years ago), that a majority of seats pro indy, meant independence. It was very straightforward and very clear, even Thatcher said so
————–
this is undoubtably true, no question, but winning 50% of the seats isnt the same as winning 50%+1 of the vote. declaring UDI with 50 odd snp mps but only 45% of the popular vote would be madness
wm would simply park tanks on holyrood lawn, shut it down and arrest the sg to the applause of the majority in scotland. what would follow would be a complete erasure of anything resembling a scottish institution, from the sfa, sspca, scotslaw etc. nothing but north british bake offs and train journeys will remain.
indeed, this effacement and belittling of all things scottish is already happening and even after a 50% + 1 vote in an election for yesnp wouldnt rule out wm parking tanks on the lawn.
but at least we could then argue that the democratic process has been followed and observed but ultimately ignore.
one does not reject the ballot box in favour of the armalite lightly but only after all democratic avenues have been explored
schrodingers cat Agree with most of what you say but as the Rev points out they only have a few weeks to sort out the mess and its a no deal by default. I think the only way there will be a GE is if somehow remain manages to revoke article 50. Tbh i cant see that happening. A new Brexiteer PM will leave it in no doubt to his/hers MP’s that if they vote against his/hers wishes then they will not be selected for the forthcoming GE. With the Duppers on board and the labour brexiteers led by Corbyn they should be able to defeat any remain motion.
I could not figure out why the ERG group did not vote for May’s deal after all it was a hard brexit , and when the Remainers came close to success I thought they would back May to ensure a hard Brexit, but they didnt, they must hsve been confident of a no deal Brexit along the line.
Geo and Peffers – I’m of the opinion that criticism of government and leadership is healthy if people have questions over strategy.
Geo you’re right the SNP
@K1
Pretty much.
————-
A viable political voice. Acceptable, credible and popular political representation doesn’t appear overnight.
It took over 70 years for a party supportive of the idea of self determination to get into a position of responsibility in Scotland. For the idea of self determination to become a mainstream and equally as credible option to the population.
And no. No, they’re not going to appeal to everyone’s idea of how things should be done. They’re not going to get every policy right, and they may come up with a few howlers. That’s people for you (shrugs).
How long do folks think it’ll take to create another party that can get themselves into a similar position though?
Bear in mind that the crisis facing Scotland’s population IS happening now and not decades in the future.
Mibbies worth a thought or two.
@ Nana
Good crop Nana. This brekkie read may take some time.
@ Nana,
It’s good to see yer back with your excellent links.
Morning Macart, enough for the weekend
Morning auld highlander, it’s been a busy few weeks. I did pop in last week and left a load of links on the 89-of-scots-support-second-indyref/ thread, starting at 10.14am. Also left a few on the my civic duty thread yesterday morning at 10.05am. Things can move fast so you likely missed them.
Hopefully back to some kind of normality from here on, unless anything changes
oops hit the submit accidentally!!
Geo you’re right the SNP secured their mandate in 2016 and have taken 3 years to enact preparatory legislation to hold the referendum. At least, why was the legislation not enacted in Nov 2018? Nicola in her 2017 manifesto said she would give the people a choice when ‘the final terms of the Brexit deal are known’. We know the terms – it’s the Withdrawal Agreement and it ain’t up for renegotiation. Whether the UK chooses to take the deal or not is immaterial, the fact is we’ve known for 6 months what the terms are.
I find it odd that anyone who questions the SNP or Nicola are shouted down by some people on this site. We all want the same result but we don’t all need to think the same way on strategy.
The SNP are not super humans who do not make mistakes. From my standpoint, I think Nicola has made 2 very crucial mistakes:
Firstly, she has boxed herself into a corner by only advocating a referendum as a means to independence. To me her manifestos should have said something along the lines of the SNP will pursue independence by one or more of the available democratic routes – legal, referenda or elections. If nothing else this would make Westminster have to potentially fight multiple fronts. As it stands Nicola has declared from the get-go the ‘rules of the game’ – i.e referenda and that’s a gift to Westminster as it’s probably the easiest one to undermine.
Secondly, I think Nicola totally misjudged the mood of her core vote, perhaps even took it for granted in the 2017 GE. By not daring to utter the word ‘independence’ backfired on her. Her manifesto even stated the election was not about independence. It’s no wonder so many people didn’t bother to turn out to vote.
I hope she doesn’t make a third mistake by continuing her wait and see approach which is allowing Westminster to dictate the agenda and play at cat and mouse. To my mind I don’t see the EU granting another extension, my preference is that we should go for it before October 2019.
Anyway this dumb clown is only sharing my opinion. And it is only an opinion. I don’t want to be an uncritical indoctrinated independence support who does not ask questions of its leadership.
I think Scotland may be at an impasse as regards Independence because as long as the parliament in England claim to hold the legality of power transfer and refuse to transfer that power they’re acting as a dictatorship and the FMs position seems to be that the people of Scotland will come to see that and reject that behaviour in favour of Independence
The Unionists in Scotland see that dictatorship by the parliament in England as a good thing and that it’s defending their rights and under no circumstances do they want that position to change
There seems little doubt that no matter what happens now the parliament in England of any colour whether Tory or Labour will continue to behave in the same manner for as long as they think they can get away with it
The SNP and FM claim that this position will *prove* to be unsustainable and have phrased the argument in this way several times and I believe that the use of the word *prove* might be key to the impasse
As we have all just seen the UN has ordered the return of the Chagos islands to their rightful owners Mauritius within the time period of 6 months with the ususl suspects not agreeing with that, but nevertheless I believe the order is to stand, now will the British comply with that order, if they do then they accept the ruling of international opinion, which they did sign up to respect, but if they don’t what teeth does the UN have to enforce their ruling
Which brings me to Scotland again, the articles of the UN clearly state that every country has the right to self determination so if the British comply with an order from the UN to evacuate the Chagos islands then they must comply with the same ruling on self determination for Scotland if Scotland’s democratically elected government makes the exact same legal case that Scotland according to the terms of the act of Union entered a voluntary Union to which they had the right to leave as and when they wished by whatever democratic process was put in place for the sovereign people of Scotland to decide upon
Is this the *prove* to be unsustainable the FM is examining
I would, but then again I’m only a lowly punter
Liz g
NOT that I want to see this BUT…
you mention the thought of weeks of upcoming TV coverage of wannabe PM’s without an iota of Scottish ( or any devolved) awareness.
It would have been a whole completely different ball game if the (t)Ruthless one had decided to go for the job!!!
Thankfully she’s feart and that will never happen – she couldnae do a real job!
K1@ 2.20 am
Can I be in your team?
Brilliant article. Independence is coming – don’t doubt it.
We don’t just owe it to those coming after us but we also owe it all those who went before us who never lived to see Scotland free once again.
Because the SNPgov sorted it
link to stv.tv
EU fraud watchdog considering Nigel Farage investigation
link to archive.fo
and finally why not have a go, whoever you choose will be ghastly
link to buzzfeed.com
geeo
you suggest that Holyrood holds a protective dissolution debate and motion to protect Scotland from the perils of any UK exit etc .
The Scottish Government has already tried to get that motion through Holyrood, in fact they were trying to get the Bill discussed and voted on before the 29th March – to protect us from the T May power grab should we leave as originally planned at the end of March – but so far as I know, it has been delayed by a single Tory on the Constitutional committee who refuses to debate the matter ( least ways it was still that scenario the last time I heard – don’t know what stage it is at now)
This was all included in the new Scottish Constitution ( particularly in the Corpus of Scots Law) which has been proposed by Mike Russell. How many of us have actually bothered to read it through?
Just because a lot of people don’t know what is happening doesn’t mean that the SG aren’t doing things behind the scenes to get the lifeboats ready to launch.
When the time comes, I think it will all happen pretty quickly.
@ Craig Murray,
you say: ” Now is the time to strike, The UK state is in total disarray.”
I agree with this line above, and both you and I (and most Wingers) can see this clearly, but since the media wont report the truth about what is happening and it takes guys like you and the Rev to expose ‘some’ of what’s going on, and since far to many people don’t take an interest in politics throughout the UK, we are still slightly behind in the polls.
No matter how weak or disorganized the Westminster establishment is, as long as they have the media on their side and as long as people wont get engaged with Wings or your own blogg for their political information, we will fall short.
Unless that is, the people begin to feel or see the effects of Brexit themselves, and we have began to see that and this is probably shifted the few percentage points that we have already saw towards ‘Yes’ and as Brexit happens will shift quite a few more.
Hold the line Craig.
Mac@1.24am
Glad to see you accept my points.
The way I look at it, as far as “is Sturgeon doing the right thing?” is this. With the benefit of hindsight, the events that have and are happening like Brexit not happening on 28th March, the EU Elections, May finally going, the chances of it being Boris as next UK PM – would I have done anything differently if I was Sturgeon?
The answer was no, and the answer is still no. I would not have done anything different and I still wouldn’t do anything differently.
Seems to me that’s the simplest way of checking out if we have confidence in Sturgeon or not. The answer for me is still YES. and as far as the YES that counts is concerned, perhaps looking at SGP latest article, it’s slowly moving at last.
Imagine what Boris will do for the polls!
K1@2.20am
Very good post.
It is amazing the number of new posters who appear who just go straight in to criticising Sturgeon or the SNP. Funny that. Plenty of other things they could criticise of course.
Burnin yurr caunull K1 [2-20am], bit ye telltit richt.
Yoan, ‘Loard Ah Thae Flees’, taks ower thoan heids, ah wan urr twaw commenturrs.
Robert Louis@8.57am
What a load of drivel in the same place.
Considering Scots are legally Sovereign, then it is clearly obvious there must be a PLEBISCITE MAJORITY for Independence.
That makes it ghe EXPRESSED SOVEREIGN WILL of the Sovereign people of Scotland that they want independence.
The proof of Sovereignty of Scots is well documented in the Claim of Right and is a founding tenet of the Treaty of Union and the formation of the uk.
That was the case for hundreds of years BEFORE anything Thatcher uttered.
What do you think takes precedence ?
The Scottish Claim of Right and our Legally accepted Sovereignty.
A statement from a deranged cuntbag ?
As usual, you are dribbling pish in the face of cold hard facts.
Liz-g@3.39am.
Agree with your comments, and would add, that i firmly believe that when things move, they will move quickly and perhaps surprise a lot of people.
Iain mhor says:
24 May, 2019 at 6:43 pm
“It is difficult champing at the bit in the current turmoil and wondering what it will take for Scots to actually deliver Independence. It must be the same within the SNP camp as well. It should always be remembered that it is Scots who must deliver Independence, the SNP can only help it along.
They delivered for the people of Scotland just 5 years ago and Scotland let them down. Not the other way around.
So, what to do? Try and find something to galvanise Scots into delivering independence. What single issue could that be?”
We are working towards Scotland having full control of its destiny, not just for the here and now, but for the generations to come.
With that in mind it should be possible to mobilise the younger folk into becoming more engaged as they will inherit the legacy we leave behind. It shouldn’t be too difficult to get them more invested in determining the course their homeland takes as they have longer to live here.
IIRC stats from 2014 show that the younger generation voting for Indy in a positive manner, was the opposite of the older folk that voted against Indy. The trouble was that more older folk voted. If both groups had turned out in the same numbers the younger ones would have got their wish.
I think it was Paula Rose that posted a comment way back at that time that went something along the lines of “Looks like a lot of young folk need to speak to their grandparents”.
So we have recently seen the younger folk getting feisty with the powers that be with regards to climate change. They are engaging on that issue.
Well, with Scotland having an abundance of renewable energy power potential, its amazingly fertile lands, and just a wee bit of water too. I don’t think it would be too difficult to put together a campaign that was built about both embracing and protecting what Scotland is blessed with.
Because if it is left under the the power of London Rule, they can be sure those resources will be exploited, trashed and we’ll be left with a polluted wasteland. See Irish sea munitions dumping, rotting subs in Rosyth, and fracking etc.
To add to above. Having just completed a wee mountain bike ride it brought to mind other important issues such as our right to roam, our abundance of unique wildlife. I also didn’t fall off my bike and require our free at point of need Scottish Health Service.
These of course are at risk if we continue to be subsumed by London Rule.
Can you imagine having to buy health insurance and listing all the activities you get up to such as mtbing, horse riding, etc, that are guaranteed to put up premiums or void the cover if you fail to declare.
Struggling to keep up on here and I see that I’ve got another two articles to get through!
Thanks for the links Nana. Your contribution is **absolutely invaluable** to this site.
…………..
Great post K1 (2.20am). Well said and yes, ”It is coming and coming soon. Of that there is No doubt”, which accounts for the sheer terror of some which leads to them, in line with Unionist politicians / the MSM, attempting ”to destroy the voters confidence in voting for them (SNP)” via this site. As plain as the nose on our faces.
………………………
And thanks too, to Phronesis (9:14pm) for his / her post, plus the extremely interesting link. WELL worth a read, imo.
”An inconvenient truth about the origins of the Brexit vote. Deeply embedded in delusions of Empire, externalising blame, in denial about the consequences of poor economic choices and punitive domestic policies. As WM grip tightens on a hard Brexit, Scotland should power up and prise itself from the demented grip of WM.”
link to theconversation.com