Wings Over Scotland

Oh I think Andrew is referencing ‘one’ well kent face, but he’s being diplomatic (well that’s ma reading of your comment Andrew, ah could be mistaken though 😉 )

@Liz g (10.27) –

Hear hear.

A lot of us are tetchy and tired and maybe even a bit depressed today, and it’s tempting to imagine giving someone a good belt in the chops.

But using this general unhappiness to have another smack at people who are already down?

Nah.

The troublemakers on here tonight know who they are.

1)In the real world, and not in somebody’s seriously troubled head –

link to en.wikipedia.org

2)I can’t be the only one thinking that when you spend most of your presidential campaign openly stirring serious racial hatred in order to become president, it is a bit much to walk out on to a stage and ask for togetherness.

John Pilger was on RT tonight being interviewed worth seeking it out and watching.

Its the end of the world and its always some one else’s fault.

link to archive.is

Everyone’s to blame, except teamBB tory meeja gimps says Graun.

“So Comey takes his place in the hall of shame of the 2016 campaign, shuffling into the group photo alongside Julian Assange, who might as well have handed over his WikiLeaks operation to the Trump campaign.

Assange kept up a drip feed of leaked emails from the Clinton team, many of them embarrassing, none devastating – while conspicuously leaking nothing that might damage the Republican nominee.

WikiLeaks never produced Trump’s tax returns or the outtakes from The Apprentice said to contain yet more evidence that Trump is a bigot and sexual predator. It targeted Clinton alone.”

That FBI guy must be one relieved FBI guy tonight. Tune in next week for rancid The Graun’s….

” Who is to blame for this awful UKOK zone Tory gov?”

“Who is to blame for this awful Brexit?”

“Who is to blame for this awful UKIP?”

“Who is blame for this awful tory goblin Farage?”

Heedtracker @ 10.46
You forgot….who is to blame for messing with Toblerone….
They slipped that in under the wire didn’t they!

The troublemakers on here tonight know who they are.

It looks like its Sturgeon’s Brexit legal action and this kind of creepy Sturgeon thing from Pacific Quay, what’s got online yoons jumping about.

link to bbc.co.uk

A pal of mine was an active SNP member. After the 1979 referendum, he emigrated to Canada, where he’s had a successful career in marine engineering. His favourite mantra is, “If there’s nothing else to argue about, we Scots will argue about the colour of dog $h!t€.”

And so it comes to pass…

Aw’ this left/right nonsense BEFORE WE ARE ACTUALLY INDEPENDENT, is hot air. When we are independent, we will have the FREEDOM to vote for the kind of country we want, according to our own beliefs.

The first government of an independent Scotland will probably be SNP. It will be the job of that government to put into place things like setting up our own central bank and currency, and so on.

All the Scottish parties will have put forward their manifestos to the Scottish electorate and we will have chosen the kind of government the majority of us want.

There’s no point in going into Indyref2 pushing manifestos. We should be promoting the principle of INDEPENDENCE and when questions are asked about the minutae, as they will be, we should answer that those points will be addressed – when we have the independent power to address them.

It’s been a long day (and thread!), iye?

Hey Kids,
Let the dust settle and take stock of a strange situation, yes it was a big shock but this was the best?! 2 candidates America put up, vote Trump you lose, vote Clinton you lose, that sort of sums it up.

Wingers know the agenda and are too smart to fall for internal bickering and will rise above the said “troublemakers”.
Big happy love and respect to all.

And finally, tory yoons in bettertogether agreement, united by Trump.

Scott Arthur
?@DrScottThinks
Without Irony: Nicola Sturgeon is saying Donald Trump has a duty to unite America…

DM ?@MajorDMalpas 5h
@DrScottThinks She has a duty to feck off and mind her own damned business!
0 replies

Oh aye I forgot to mention, expect KwianE on Empire Shortbread to have her hour long phone in of pish, all about Nicla and Alic wrecking Scotland by falling out with the ferret.

Alex Salmond has a good piece on that BBC link above. All the Brexiters who think the UK will be at the front of the queue for a great trade deal from President Trump have another thing coming.

At heart, Trump is an American nationalist. He targeted the votes of poor people who would normally vote democrat, and won enough of them over with American nationalism and protectionism.

@Onwards

It’s possible that the SNP also have a “ban” on fracking but in their own way. More than possible really.

Other than that I too think it would be a good idea to run a second referendum based on purely the principles of Independences and not one parties policies.

Maybe unlikely though as the standard has alraedy been set.

“Fracking reports: SNP accused of kicking issue ‘into long grass”

link to archive.is

@Brian Doonthetoon and others – exactly right.
As some have said above, without Independence, you can’t make any of the changes you seek.
A nice simple referendum message on sovereign power & the ability to react to & shape the future should limit the vulnerabilities to yoon attack.
I’d also like a written constitution – preferably nicked from some respectable country, so the yoons can’t disparage it too much.

@Mike C (10.59) & Lenny Hartley –

Thanks for bringing-up, and linking-to this Pilger interview.

No more pointless bickering, from me at any rate, when we have stuff like this to get wur heids round…

link to youtube.com

Before hitting the sack. think I might just watch the Pilger video.

Can’t be bad to educate or brainwash (as some might say) yourself further Cheers guys for posting.

Mike c @ 10.59 & Lenny Heartley.
My thanks as well for the Pilger interview.
Good to hear his main thrust is calling out the disgraceful media role,in all this.
Especially since sometimes it seems like it is just us seeing it and ye begin to wonder if it’s yer imagination!!!!

Good passionate debate. 500+

Normality restored (for now!) 🙂

Hold er steady, not too long to go now until the next article.

Good morning Scotland.
X.

framing

Eric Joyce

trump-and-brexit-have-destroyed-the-economic-case-against-independence

there never was a real economic case against independence, just a made up one

his punch-up in parliament a stunt then to put him out in the cold, ergo plant, infiltrator, or poor choice of words/title?

Alex Salmond has lost the plot, it’s very sad, we love him … but he’s getting embarassing
the sun might melt the rocks etc., but he’s bending at the knee for recognition from on high, principles strewn along the way or playing some game none can fathom

there are environmental aspects of golf-courses such as chemical run-offs, that make any more of them a bad thing, less a good thing, SEPA is a broken reed
there are economic arguments
no land with high potential for agricultural use or as refuge and habitat for wildlife and nature which is what lures visitors, as much as golf, should be given over to ‘leisure’, especially not moneyed leisure, right to roam assures you can walk on any part of the course, distracting players to laugh at their attire, aptitude or pretensions would merely be anti-social and beneath us
it was right to oppose it on both thosethose grounds
the independence movement is very much becoming home of the lower-middle classes, more likely playing at playing golf, not searching the rough wet through for lost balls to sell

I hope Nicola’s expressed support for H Clinton was tit-for-tat for Trump sticking his private citizen neb into the 2014 referendum if he did, he certainly put the boot in afterwards, if so, some others on the indy side took it as an endorsement and fawned over the more repugnant Clinton whose private views conflict with her public front in alarming ways that show her more demonstratively racist etcetera than Trump’s demagoguery portends, or Nicola knows Trump’s opposition to Independence is firm, irrational, not based on our right to self-determination and development, and had nothing to lose, if so he’s going to be a mere nuisance but no more than that, we are many, together we are formidable and also beautiful

and they can have a positive, productive dealings and friendly relations, but never with our braw lass as supplicant, which I know NS would never stoop to, so heads held high, Nicola will have Donald Trump and entourage for tea, in more ways than one.

@Tom B

Alex Salmond getting embarrassing? Lost the plot? You don’t think he knows exactly what he’s doing then?

Interesting.

@ everyone else

Two days ago Donald Trump was a businessman. A well known one and for all the wrong reasons. For the past several years he was a businessman who attempted to bully Scots law and government. He rode roughshod over Scots communities and has made a point of systematically insulting our politicians quite publicly.

His recent campaign to gain the big chair in the Whitehouse has managed to lower the standard of campaigning in a country famed for its shabby, media driven politics by some degree. A campaign marked with violence, ignorance, xenophobic intolerance and empty sound bite.

He now inhabits the office of a world leader, but he’s still nothing more than the same bullying, intolerant, egocentric self publicist and businessman he was two days ago. The American government’s view of Scottish independence is likewise just what it was two days ago. They’re against it for all the obvious bloody reasons and still hypocrites.

To be a leader of your population you require a few things Mr Trump will never have, chiefest among them being empathy and fellow feeling, not to mention at least a degree of honesty and the ability and willingness to govern for ALL your population.

I may not be the most party politically minded of souls, but I’m quite proud of the achievements and principles of our two most recent incumbents of the FMs chair. So maybe one day that office of a world leader in Washington will have one sitting in it worth the name, but that is NOT what Mr Trump will ever be. TBF Ms Clinton wasn’t much better a choice and in a number of ways worse. There was never going to be a fitting incumbent of that chair today and THAT is the saddest truth of the matter. The American public was faced with Hobson’s choice. A choice over naked greed or naked hatred. The most catastrophic failure of politics in American history IMV.

As for our FMs recent past and present? They answer to us, not the senate, not the Oval office and not a small minded bigot with an ego problem. They protected our interests as best they could and let him know what they thought of him, both before his electoral run and during.

If anyone wants our FMs to lack honesty, principle, integrity or a spine they can always vote for Kezia, Ruth or thingy. They have the relevant experience.

Seems the media is in meltdown over Mr Trump becoming President.

The Independent has a plethora of ‘Trump BAD” articles the Guardian too – it’s keeping me amused to see their predictions, manipulations turn to drivelling dust.

And what is even better is that the btl comments are sticking the boot in – is the world wakening up to the ordure of the mainstream media , I sincerely hope so.

The Prime Minister demanded to be ‘fully involved in all discussions’ about Britain’s departure – but her request will be ignored
link to archive.is

link to france24.com

link to consilium.europa.eu

link to politico.eu

link to yanisvaroufakis.eu

link to blogs.lse.ac.uk

link to samkriss.com

link to blacktrianglecampaign.org

David Arnott at 7:52

It’s not what you advocate David, it’s your suspect chronology.

The time for heated argument to shape the Scotland we want to live in comes after the disciplined and mutually supportive campaign of getting Scotland over the threshold of Independence. The prerequisite of government is the power to govern.

To agitate division before that threshold is crossed does not help anyone, but instead rearms the media with new angles of attack and petty squabbles they can blow out of proportion.

To argue now whether Scotland is too dependent on benefits is no different to the 2014 bullshit about keeping the pound. It was utterly irrelevant white noise. Choice of currency was an ephemeral choice that could change according to prevailing government policy. The issue ignored was the sovereign capacity required to be making the choice in the first place.

Your argument is the same. Why argue whether Scotland should be left or right when Scotland is free to be neither, until it has been empowered by its own clear sovereign authority?

The left understands this, the right understands this, the greens understand this, and misfits like myself understand it too. If you want a right wing Scotland, then thats up to you, but for now exercise some self restraint, put your shoulder to the collective wheel which will actually deliver an independent Scotland, and then demand the right for your views to be heard.

Bernie Sanders on the election of Mr Trump.

“Donald Trump tapped into the anger of a declining middle class that is sick and tired of establishment economics, establishment politics and the establishment media. People are tired of working longer hours for lower wages, of seeing decent paying jobs go to China and other low-wage countries, of billionaires not paying any federal income taxes and of not being able to afford a college education for their kids – all while the very rich become much richer. ”

Its not the end of the world. The bigger menace we seem to miss is that the two elected houses in the US are also Republican. If Hillary had won they would have been in conflict with her all the time. That all 3 branches of the legislature in the US are held by a party way to the right of most Europeans is an issue.

Now can we all get back to contemplating our own navels. The US is a far away country of which we know little, and paradoxically too much.

Re The media in meltdown !

Personally I thought Trump got it absolutely bang on calling out the media, he used social media to his advantage as he knew msm wasn’t on his side. Trump was vilified and had to use all tactics to succeed.
After all he is in business too beat the competition, sometimes you have to step on people’s toes to win the deal.You wouldn’t let your competitor walk all over you without being ruthless.
For me the SNP need to suss out social media and use it like Trump to their advantage! At the moment they are doing it with a straitjacket on and mouth stuffed with a sock.
Personally don’t believe all the crap banded about Trump because in the land of the law suit he would never be out of court and I prefer a businessman than a warmonger in control. Far from perfect but maybe the best choice in a crazy country.

I wonder if @piersmorgan would be so sanguine if the President Elect was considering demoting *his* relationships and removing *his* rights.

Would someone on twitter kindly send this to DH and ask him what measures he is taking to improve his self-awareness?

“The right to development is an inalienable human right by virtue of which every human person and all peoples are entitled to participate in, contribute to, and enjoy economic, social, cultural and political development, in which all human rights and fundamental freedoms can be fully realized.” (Article 1.1, Declaration on the Right to Development)

“The human right to development also implies the full realization of the right of peoples to self-determination, which includes, subject to the relevant provisions of both International Covenants on Human Rights, the exercise of their inalienable right to full sovereignty over all their natural wealth and resources.” (Article 1.2)

link to un.org

@Nana

Nice crop this morning Nana.

Many thanks 🙂

David Arnott
Are you forgetting that independence allows Scotland to follow new strategies to national development? Also, are you perhaps forgetting that independence allows growth through the development of Scottish culture (knowledge and experience) and that the “Semiotic Theory of Space and Place” tell us that new practices and process emerge as a response to autonomy?

Britain is an ideological construct, Scotland has authentic integrity.

Scotland has a potential for a sustainable future, Britain does not.

David Arnott
Also, what time-frame are you considering? It will take some time for Scotland to overcome three centuries of colonisation.

@ David Arnott

By all means stand for election on your manifesto in an Independent Scotland – but get Independence first. You should have the democratic right to express a political view within the constraints of reasonable free speech, and to stand for election to attempt to persuade other of your right to then create the society you desire.

I won’t be voting for your agenda – I’m still going for a moderate left consensus -as is MY right – AFTER we get there.

I have no problem relating to a minority of family members who are Conservatives in heart and mind – but I have none who follow the Daily Mail line on social values. They seem to be moderate right wingers, not in favour of Independence, but they wouldn’t vote for you either.

They’re old-fashioned, enlightened self-interest, compassionate types who can see the benefits of the NHS, social housing the Tories used to build, and are fairly tolerant of minorities.

A different Scotland would make its own choices, but there is a substantial social consensus available around economic enterprise and social justice which the SNP is fairly close to.
Maybe try this first before going to extremes?

Every step to the radical right will turn off a large number of the left. There is no large group of the radical right in favour of Independence, so I don’t think your agenda is helpful in reaching the ultimate destination.

By all means mke the case – but keep it calm and short.

It’s funny I see the SNP veering ever more rightwards in (big) business friendly ways and the lumpen-right climbing aboard. And the EU which has become their focus secondary to independence is simply a one-stop shop for corruption and lobbying, and was and still is a US creation, an adjunct to the mutual-suicide pact, high membership cost NATO. The two country (I hope I’ve satisfied the pedants there) union of U-KOK is falling apart at the seams, deservedly, a 27/28 member union is an even more unstable thing even the ‘core’ members are having doubts, my every instinct tells me the EU is not going hold together short-term much less longer. It can only be temporary, its time has expired, they have sat too long for any good that they have done … Right-wing governments dominate it, real-ugly ones, the US dominates them in ways that make the UK look like free-agents, Special Relationship, Airstrip-One and much more notwithstanding. We cannot change the European scene or trajectory, it is delusional to think we can. The Dutch vote to bar Ukraine from the EU, after the coup in which Germany and Poland are heavily involved, devastatingly so, that both countries are in ferment, is of the same nature as Brexit, and the election of Trump, people-power using whatever means available to thwart and defy the elite. The veto of Wallonia and thus Belgium of the EU-Canada trade deal has been quietly ignored as if it never happened. Maybe it never did, Winston.

And people think the SNP are too left wing? I despair, the same no doubt think the BBC is too and the Graun.

“Nicola Sturgeon should hammer this home at FM Questions.”

Agreed, @ Brian Powell says at 9:45 am

Nicola Sturgeon should also should hammer home Tory hypocrisy for wanting fracking and subsidising nuclear energy whilst simultaneously delaying supporting onshore wind to the detriment of Scotland Island communities.

It really is gloves off time for those who would damage Scotland economy to prop up the Union.

Bet The Ruthenfuhrer, Dugdale and Wee Wullie/Patrick ‘lend us yer vote’ will be asking NS regarding her comments on Trump though.

@David Arnold
“Scotland is too heavily dependent on benefits. You can dislike that statement if you like, its not the fault of the majority of people (though like it or not there are many who would rather stay on benefit than actually work, or who have kids based purely on benefit).”

Sadly this has become the mainstream view that people on benefits drag the majority down. The thing is for the past 40 years the dominant neoliberal economic strategy has been to use unemployment as a tool to combat inflation (in its ignorance) So unemployment by design is baked into the neoliberal cake for starters.

So many of the older generation now claim that the young are lazy forgetting or not realising that they themselves were beneficiaries of a policy of post-war full employment and a much higher deficits than we see today. The virtual job guarantee and relatively low cost of housing (before thatchers Ponzi scheme) meant more social mobility. Now it’s a case of zero hour contracts for peanuts and a part share in something with someone else or staying with the parents.

Yes there’s a generational malaise and its down to lack of investment and a generation of governance that doesn’t actually understand how an economy works.

I’m assuming you favour small government. Thats fair enough but at the moment we have a very large hand of government, yet that ‘invisible hand’ is cupped underneath the city of london. Do you think it an accident that London and the SE has a lower deficit than anywhere else? Of course the tax yield is higher there – just think back to the aftermath 2008 when the public was underwriting their bonus culture and tripling the national debt in the process. £ invested precede tax yield. Where do you think £ you pay in tax comes from?

Of course then we have the corporate welfare strategy of QE. Now running at £445Bn to pump up assets on the stock exchange with huge financial benefit to the wealthiest and very little for the rest of us. That’s a mighty big hand of govt – but only for the few.

Perhaps you can look at the £1.6tn stock of UK debt and account for how much of that can be attributed to Scotland when we would very obviously have been running a trade surplus for the past 30 years.

There certainly is a spiral of low confidence amongst the unemployed. I have been there and was surprised at how quickly I got stuck in a rut with receding self-worth. of course there will be some who will game the system – for 100s or maybe 1000s – but not billions. Sadly the TV media cleverly fixates on these people making us believe that they ARE the problem, ignoring the wealth transfer which takes place each and everyday by our bank friendly govt.

Yes we need to grow the economy and we need meaningful employment but that requires investment and it ain’t going to come from Westminster. We are going to have to do it ourselves but it requires direct investment from the Scottish govt and that requires a new country and a new currency.

spending = income. We won’t have higher tax revenues until £s or scot £s are spent into circulation.
Capitalism runs on sales. if there’s less money in the economy then there is less demand. Companies won’t move into an economic area of little demand. Why would they?

Jockanese Wind Talker

Tricky for Ruth!

“Ruth Davidson @RuthDavidsonMSP
So, twitter, we’re all agreed? Trump’s a clay-brained guts, knotty-pated fool, whoreson obscene greasy tallow-catch, right?”

And K Dugdale spent 3 days in the US campaigning for Hilary Clinton.

We really are living in “interesting” times, more-so given The Donald’s election win.

Hitherto DT has been surrounded by corporate “Yes Men”. He strikes me as not the sort of meglomaniac who will take kindly to being told: “You cannot do this”. So, when some General tells him: “Sorry Mr President, but, you cannot nuke Moscow”, or a State Department official says: “No Mr President, you cannot just build that wall”, he will not like it. He is in for a short, sharp lesson in the reality that Realpolitik is nothing like campaigning.

So, possibly some turmoil, before the Washington machine breaks him to realities.

Over here, the turmoil will continue, until the Tories – if they ever do – work out what Brexit means. Here too, new PM May is surely learning just how limited her powers actually are.

So, Nicola and the SNP have, in my view, to get their act together quickly and decide what they should do that is best for Scotland in the current unstable atmosphere elsewhere.

I would go for Indyref2 now – because I don’t think Westminster could simultaneously handle properly – finding out where they stand with Trump, Brexit and an Independence referendum.

I would also reckon, of these three situations, they would probably rate Scottish independence the least-important, put their weakest talent on it and we could win a very good exit deal.

BUT, We in the independence movement have to get our act together – even-more-quickly. We have to be singing from the same hymn sheet, concentrating on the main prize – Independence, then, once we have won it, we can argue over the small print, among ourselves, free from the diversion of England.

What happens post-Independence will be a huge challenge for the SNP. Those former Tories (and there are many) who despaired of an increasingly-London-centric Tory party and joined the SNP, might well be attracted back to a non-Union, pro-business Scottish Tory party. The similarly thinking former Labour voters might well be attracted back to a re-born Scottish Labour Party, shorn of the stumblebums in the current leadership. Why, the Lib-Dems might even rise again.

But, pre-Independence, we need to have people working towards a fairer, kinder Scotland, and, post-Independence, being less politically tribal and putting Scotland first.

It could happen, but, it will take a lot of work.

But, the first job is to drain the (political) swamp, by winning our Freedom from Westminster. Let’s get that done.

David Arnott @ 7:52

That’s your version of events,your story,thanks for sharing,yes,you have had to adapt to survive and there is nothing wrong with personal development,in fact,it is to be encouraged.

There are many other versions,some similiar,some completely different,yes we hear your voice,but there are many other voices,everyone is on a personal journey,who is to be the judge of them ? You ? Me ?.

Is the young squaddie who was injured or killed in an illegal war to be applauded,YES,he gave us everything,that is you and me,is the bastard who put him in that unesssary position to be rewarded,NO.

Are the richest 1% to be hero worshipped,as an example to us all,in a world full of flag waving war mongerers,is that the world we want ?.

Are we to destroy the planet in the name of ‘progress’ ? Are you ready to say fuck it and push that button ?.

We have,obviously just skimmed the surface of the many issues,the many questions that need answered,the many voices we hear,the many stories out there (many as yet untold).

There are many paths to ‘enlightenment’,simplistic sound bytes are all very well,but the reality is,only each of us individually,can decide what kind of society we what to be part of.

Good luck with your ‘journey’ but all I ask,don’t be too judgemental on others,they maybe further down the road than you or perhaps even at the start of their journey.

You may prefer to not to be heard,to remain complicitly silent,then that choice is yours and welcome to UKOK….IMO,our voices,All our voices,need to be heard….that’s just one (non flag waving) reason Scotland needs to regain it’s Independence…there are many more.

Live Long and Prosper.

Ruth going very Shakespearean with the insults there. I believe Kezia simply called Trump “an arse” and Patrick considers him less than favourably. His only mate in Scotland is Coburn.

However, I am sure that a German newspaper ran with the headline “Night of the Horror Clown” People might consider that Trump will have a naughty list of all those who insulted him but it will a hell of a long list for him to go through.

I see that Trump is set to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel (an election pledge apparently, that Bibi wants to cash in). I don’t think the ME is going to get any more peaceful in the immediate future.

Watching Tristram Hunt on the Victoria Derbyshire show.
His answer to Trump? The Labour Party should start to be more patriotic and proud of their Englishness. Mmmmmm

Yesindyref2: ‘The wee slight problem there is that the current support for Indy is around 48%’

Mebbee ayes mebbe naw….what is certain that the significant element of the REF ‘Naw’ Vote were pensioners of all political hues…frightened into protecting their welfare benefit i.e. their pension by Big Bad Broony the clunking fisted liar.

Scotland hasn’t had a right wing majority vote i.e tory or Scottish unionist since the 1950s. People who vote Unionist are not uniformly right wing neoliberal thinkers in this country, many are just plain feart of losing the little that they have.

Day 1, Graun, in the brave new Trump era…

“UK golden eagle population soars to new heights
Numbers pass the level deemed viable for the raptor’s long-term survival but it remains missing from a third of its traditional territories”

Oh well, we are only a region of greater England and at least Graun’s not blaming Alex Salmond for Trump this morn, or global warming, or the environmental destruction of Scotland, by a freakin golf course.

Tory yoons be crazy, red and blue, or they think we are. What’s my main yoon Dr NO! up to this lovely Scottish morning,

Scott Arthur Retweeted
Scott Arthur ?@DrScottThinks 11h11 hours ago
Danger – Ironly Alert!!!

Nicola Sturgeon says Trump must show he is president for everyone

He means shut up and go away woman. They all do. Its yoon thing.

Independence must be a broad Church with a wide door. We all have different views of what we want politically and socially. I have many indy supporting colleagues with whom I have just that factor in common. We differ on many things.

We must welcome all who try the door and help them inside regardless of our own views,

Just now I cannot help get the feeling we are a a like caged wild animals pacing back and forth looking for a way out. This is why aggression and depression sets in and ultimately frustration .

I think the button needs to be pressed soon or we will like the aforementioned caged lions turn on each other and our dream will suffer.

Sky News incompetent, ignorant cub reporter now indulging in a total useless, biased report about the Scottish fishing industry and Brexit.

Do they never learn. Is there no end to their ignorance?

Lochside says:

Scotland hasn’t had a right wing majority vote i.e tory or Scottish unionist since the 1950s. People who vote Unionist are not uniformly right wing neoliberal thinkers in this country, many are just plain feart of losing the little that they have.

The 1950s vote was certainly unionist, but for the majority, not a right wing choice. It was in part a sectarian choice and in part actually a backlash against Labour centralisation and moving power to London. The National Covenant for home rule had been widely supported, too.

As you say, today backers of Unionist parties, even the Tories, aren’t necessarily neo liberals or even rightwing.

It more about resistance to change and conservatism with a wee ‘c’.

We now find ourselves in a position where change is just as likely with a UK future as it is with Indy. There will be no status quo option for those feart of change to fall back on.

We need to show that an Indy future is not only safer, but fairer. This needs comparison and negative highlighting of the UK’s path.

David B 8.41

People are tired of working longer hours for lower wages, of seeing decent paying jobs go to China and other low-wage countries, of billionaires not paying any federal income taxes and of not being able to afford a college education for their kids – all while the very rich become much richer. ”

And so they voted for a billionaire tax dodger.

And not just any tax dodger.

A tax dodger who managed to dodge enough tax to finance a personal run at the White House.

And who proposed the significant tax cuts for the very rich.

link to archive.is

People in the top 0.01 percent, making $3.7 million or more in a year, would receive $1 million in annual tax savings.

“He is proposing tax cuts for the very people he ran against in his campaign,”

Doh!

Makes our Brexit voters who believed the bus slogans of those salt-of-the-earth-types like Farage, Johnson and Gove look like political intellectuals.

@galamcennalath
“Fairer” is a nice word, but people worried about change don’t want to be worse off to achieve it. They can afford a new car every 5 years, holiday every year, dinner out every week, cinema, theater perhaps, the odd jolly down to London. “Fairer? We work hard for what we have, and did without before we made it”.

I’m afraid with a lot of people, that also comes down to David Arnott’s point which seems to have been too nastily personalised by too many people who normally know better, so let’s put it in terms of Mr & Mrs Milngavie:

“Why should we give up any of that so that lazy scroungers can have 42″ TVs, drugs, booze, car, holdidays, and single women can have kids and enjoy a lifestyle we have to put up with a nasty boss and work hard for?”.

We need to get Mr & Mrs Milngavie to vote YES. They don’t read the DM by the way, it’s the Guardian or the DT, Times or Independent.

Anyway, I’m off to my scratcher, working all night to get an order out – should have been done days ago but I got distracted.

As usual.

That’s correct, about 4% of Conservative voters voted YES. I want nearer 50% of them to vote YES. They should do, the opportunities for personal wealth in Independent Scotladn are beyond belief – and that’s the probelm – belief.

Scotland’s economy has been suppressed by development strategies based on the ideology of British nationhood (e.g. interest rates set to suite an over-heated London and the south-east). Released from such ideological constraints, Scotland’s economy would be able to perform as a normal economy, not as that of a parasitised colony. Of course, there’s all that useless oil well have to deal with, so that’s a problem.

Remember folks, England has a chronic shortage of housing and is planning for annual droughts. Energy security is also a major problem for England.

If hard core toryboys want to stop women have children while on benefits, they need to change the benefits system. But that probably wouldn’t work as women seem to have babies regardless.

Howsabout sterilising women beneath a certain income level? That could work. Get the ATOS sanctioning crews involved. If women cant pay their way, or even show a well planned career path, in good jobs, like the media, or IT, they can be sterilised at the Job Centres. It needn’t be permanent, just long enough until low paid scrounger women get their careers going again. Women already pregnant should hand over the children to nice people with good jobs so that they can be raised properly and not sponge off of the tax payers largess.

Vote Ruthie Babes. A working class conservative.

Tom B…

I have some sympathy for, but disagreement with, David Arnott, but I can’t even get a handle on your perspective at all. Your misery and despair seems so contrived it would be humorous if it wasn’t for the scary fact you might actually be serious.

I’m not going to get into a petty oneupmanship about which government is nastier that which other government, because right now, Scotland is joined at the hip with the only EU government with an unchallenged run at securing the title of being the most downright stupid and short sighted.

The imminent collapse of Europe is a fantasy propagated by Brexiteers who would have us believe there were two pages to the Brexit Beermat Manifesto.

Heads up Tom B, my local Council is corrupt and rotten to the core, but the solution is not to destroy the council, but to destroy the corruption which taints it.

The EU is a great institution with noble ideals. It has kept the peace in Europe for 70 years, when the starting point was outright mistrust and bloodthirsty hatred. You look at other political alliances, like NATO, the UN, and compare how narrow and skeletal these alliances actual are, then compare them to fleshed out body and soul of European Union membership. The French aren’t just foreign signatories on a document, they are my friends. The Dutch are my friends. The Germans are my friends. I kick myself for missing out on the opportunities at school to learn how to speak German, Italian, Spanish, Polish…

I have never once felt threatened by Europe. Never. European coalition has made petty imperialism which vexed Europe and plundered the wider world for centuries an arcane philosophy. The EU has never been the cause of a war, but instead was Europe’s answer to a European continent continually destroyed by war. That alone makes it a worthy institution worth keeping.

If the EU was indeed to collapse, then what would there be to replace it but 28 mini Brexit tragedies and a return to the self centred imperial pissing contests and fractious defence pacts and treaties which so quickly ratcheted up the momentum for Armageddon when Achduke Ferdinand stopped a bullet.

If Britains Exit has indeed lit the fuse on the destruction of the EU, then that shameful folly should lie as heavy on our conscience as the centuries of Imperialsist aggression and exploitation and destruction of native culture committed under the Butchers apron. If that is Britain’s aim, the panacea for its troubles, then I want no part of it. I am European, and for as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, I am staying European.

Big Jock at 11.39

Nice post.

Brexit – people disconnected a vote against establishment.

Trump elected – people disconnected a vote against establishment.

Indy supporters – Cult…Nats

Corbyn supporters – Bullies….Corbynistas

Amazingly convenient how the union supporters and the ‘establishment’ in their post analysis find it so easy to legitimise the results of both Brexit and Trump’s election as President and yet are unwilling to legitimise and justify the legitimate support for both Indy and Corbyn.

This is why we have Brexit and Trump elected because the combined political and media ‘establishment’ failed to predict and refused to recognise a reality which they the ‘establishment’ did not control or dictate to ( Mail & Express like the Dandy and Beano naturally excluded from the ‘media’ definition).

They ARE worried because now they know ANYTHING is possible and WE now know that the more THEY fight against us the more chance WE have of winning….I give you the reality of Project Fear Brexit and Trump elected……will they, that is the establishment, EVER learn?…..probably not…..and that is where WE now have the real opportunity to ‘take back control’.

There is only one REAL Independence day…..and it is NOT the ones hijacked by both Brexit and Trump’s election.

2016 has shown us that there is real power attainable with the combined will of the people and when our time comes we need to seize it with both hands and ‘get OUR country back’.

I know what you’re saying @ Brian Powell says at 10:05 am

“Tricky for Ruth!” and “K Dugdale spent 3 days in the US campaigning for Hilary Clinton.”

How much airtime and column inches were or are devoted to such instances by the current and former Miss UKOK??

Only a tiny fractional % of the airtime and column inches devoted to SNPBaaad.

Us anoraks on Wings know that all the Unionist MSPs are hypocrites and some are just down right nasty.

The wider population doesn’t though and it is this bias by omission which needs to be challenged publicly.

Middle-class Scots might be comfortable enough to be satisfied with the status-quo but they lack inalienable human rights. They might not see that as a problem but they are merely burring their heads in the sand. Human rights are vital to ensuring we live under the rule-of-law and to ensure we have access to economic, social, cultural and political involvement.

Look at how far Britain has moved in the last 40 years. Can these Scots be confident about the future liberties of their children and grandchildren, without the security provided by human rights?

Latest news on EBC

link to bbc.co.uk
Theresa May promises a ‘golden era’ in UK-Chinese relations.

What a coincidence that shortly after a rumour circulating that Scoltand has lost a huge deal with China (although China is denying it is cancelled), the UK government is negotiating £Billions of deal with China.

I smell a smell!

Could one of the terms of any UK deal be that China only negotiates and deals with the UK???

They realise terms with the USA may have changed overnight.
China doesn’t want to lose Nepal so would sympathise re England ‘losing’ Scotland?

Hmmm!

Rees-Mogg throwing in his 3d worth on World at One. Politicians ought ‘to have their feet held to the fire’ . Shared values! The triumph of optimism!

Bit like marriage really…” the triumph of optimism over experience!”

David Arnott @ 7.
Glad you have learned to post with a better tone.
I asked a few questions of the back of your other post and you haven’t answered.
I was not aggressive to you but only used ” completely Dry “eyed “sarcasm.
Which considering the confrontational tone you took about young woman I make no apology for.
I never let language like that go on unchallenged around me.

You seem to be a quick learner though,
and have voiced your concerns in a way that doesn’t throw a road block in front of any discussion.

While I do agree most of these conversions are moot till after Indy,we can surely explore some of them?

You see David I don’t identity as right or left anything,any more than you do with Nazi ideology (I took you as being sarcastic), .
I would self identify as a paid up member of the awkward squad when it comes to claims the Politicians & Media make.
I will try to illustrate what I mean by a less controversial “I hope” example.
So please indulge me.

The Politicians & Media have done quite a job of convincing us to pick up Dog shit.
This was all based on the assertion that shit from dog’s who haven’t been wormed could cause blindness in children.
Soooo that generates two questions.

Where is that blind child,one, just one, and I am convinced?
Who is worming and picking up after the Foxes who carry the same parasite?

Answers there came none.
Also interestingly enough neither have any convictions for not paying the fine if issued with one.

What did happen though is a huge wages bill for enforcement officers and their equipment,all tax pay’er funded.
The fencing of play areas with cattle grids all tax pay’er funded.
Waste bins all tax pay’er funded
Poo bags delivered to various council outlets all tax pay’er funded.

The pet and vet industry have a great line in waste disposal products.

All this generated on some academic report or other,now I am not claiming that the science is wrong,nor am I claming that dog owners shouldn’t clean up,but rather that the arguments that this is such a huge problem aren’t convincing.

What I am say is that claims are made based on flimsy evedienc an before we know it people are accepting them as fact and allowing the government to act.
Which eventually results in a fair few people inserting the caveat that of course we don’t deny there’s a problem into the discourse.

I don’t know about you but I was around when Thatcher made young single mum’s public enemy no 1.
Think about it David the whole of society hostile to a young mum,that turned my stomach then and still does.
All the more so because I never have gotten an answer to the questions I asked you,and I have been asking them for a lot of years now.
How big a problem is this really?
Why are women in countries with no benefit system having more kids,even when they aren’t teenagers anymore and there lives are more at risk,but still they have them.
Does that tell us that maybe the urge to reproduce is not only a powerful one but that it has very little to do with the tax pay’er?

Only because you shared your personal experiences to illustrate part of your statements,let me share mine.
I was married to the father of my children,before I had them.
We were a working family.
All my children are over 21 and all educated and in employment.
I am not yet a grandmother.
So you see I say what I do only because I have thought about it not because it’s personal.

Arnott: “since I suggested its wrong for young women to be given money for being stupid/selfish enough to have multiple kids with no prospect of giving them a future”

Putting aside the self-serving vanity of your remarks, by what yardstick do you judge young woman who have more than two children are unable to provide their children with a future?

In what way is it “wrong” morally or physically?

Moreover, by what appointed authority do you feel you have the right to withhold state taxes to stop women having children you assume they might be unable to look after?

The Nightmare Scenario:

MCTERNAN PREDICTS SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE.

Question #4 for you @ David Arnott

Does your Tax Code have a S at the start of it?

David Arnott
You do appreciate what a survival strategy is? Different circumstances require different strategies. Not everyone has confidence, aptitude and opportunity.

If it wasn’t for casino banking, imperial wars and ingrained nepotism and corruption, Britain might be able to provide opportunity for all.

Trickle-down is a myth.

David Arnott,

Let’s assume that you are a genuine supporter of Scottish independence and have a right-of-centre viewpoint. You are particularly concerned about benefit fraud. Fair enough. Who would disagree? Who actually wants freeloaders to take advantage of lax handouts? So your recent tangential excursion into that issue is targeting a straw man, and one moreover that has nothing whatever to do with Scottish independence.

It’s no more or less likely to happen in an independent Scotland than otherwise, because lots of people (=taxpayers) would be up in arms if it ever did, and not just you.

Please, you may be venting steam about a personally-sensitive issue, but this is the typical distraction politics beloved of the rightwing tabloid media. Find someone to scapegoat so others who might have good reason to feel disadvantaged can be suckered by some slight gratuitous sense of empowerment instead. Which merely raises suspicion about your motives in raising Cain about it here.

Let’s get back to basics, David. The facts are not inherently party political, even though politicians too often distort them for their own selfish interests. Here’s the bottom line. Can you not agree that as a citizen of a sovereign Scotland you would have far more real control over the issues you care about than being a mere unbidden colonial in a Greater England? Is that not the primary goal?

Until that is changed, the rest can afford to wait.

Robert J. Sutherland
Also, the cost of benefit fraud is minuscule in to comparison corporation tax avoidance, for example.

It is up to us to stop the slave-economy that is being created around us. Strategies based of ideology, such as the British state, are unlikely to provide sustainable solutions.

If Scotland wants a sustainable future, the British state needs to be planned out of Scotland’s environment. Independence first, then an approach that retains what is good and improves where necessary.

David A,
You really do have a peculiar interest in young women, especially poor young women who have children, especially with multiple partners? I wonder why that is David, perhaps Heedtracker could fit you in for a consultation? It’s a strange fascinating insight into your life David, one I am afraid I cannot continue, you see, and don’t take this too hard, but you have offered nothing to the discussion except to convince the vast majority that you are one strange guy. In any case and
I may be wrong but I thought the benefits system cut off after two? If that’s the case are you happy now?
But all must be fine in the world of wings as reading the posts we are simultaneously an echo chamber and a bunch of argumentative leftists who can’t agree on anything.

@David Arnott

after covering and livestreaming many events and listening to many people who are directly or indirectly affected by benefits reading your ignorant comments I find really distressing. Dont get ill David and hope you never get in an accident, the benefits system is not a nice place to be. Hard to believe you are pro-Indy as the current policies coming out of Westminster are reflective of you posting.