Playing by Madrid Rules
We’re not a Catalonian-politics website and we don’t even have an opinion on whether Catalonia should be independent, but sometimes it’s easier to understand the workings and failings of the media if you watch how it behaves on a subject you’re not directly and closely involved with. Last week was one of those weeks.
Below is a clip from yesterday’s edition of Sunday Politics Scotland. It features a man called José Rodriguez Mora, who was introduced to SPS viewers neutrally as simply an academic from Edinburgh University but was in fact instrumental in the creation of a stridently anti-independence Catalonian political party.
He was brought on to give voice to what has become the universal UK-media spin on events in Catalonia – that both sides are to blame, that the Catalan government was provocative and irresponsible to call an “illegal” referendum, and that the only way for the area to achieve independence is through the 1978 Spanish constitution, despite it expressly forbidding any such action and its cornerstone of existence (also known as the “Preliminary Title”) being “based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation”.
So in the striking absence of any useful information in the press, we thought we’d do a little digging and see how that might work.
The first point to note is that the Spanish constitution is – by design – very difficult to amend, placing a series of onerous obstacles in the way of any proposed change.
The largest is the requirement for a succession of supermajorities – variously 60% or 67% – in Spain’s two houses of Parliament. Catalan representatives alone have no chance of achieving such a vote, numbering just 47 of the 350 seats in the Congress of Deputies, very VERY broadly the Spanish equivalent of the House Of Commons.
The ruling party of Mariano Rajoy, the Partido Popular (PP) – implacably opposed to independence or any sort of referendum in Catalonia – currently runs a minority administration in the DoC, with just 38% of the seats. So in theory the Catalans, if they could get the support of every opposition party (some of whom also have ambitions of independence), could get fairly close-ish to a supermajority in the Congress.
However, they would then have to do the same in the upper house, the Senate, where the PP holds 56% of the seats and the combined opposition just 44%. That’s plainly impossible in any practical sense, and even if by some implausible miracle they were able to succeed then any amendment would still be subject to a general election, new 67% supermajorities in each of the two parliamentary houses following that election, and finally approval in a Spain-wide referendum, which it would undoubtedly lose.
So in effect, saying the Catalans could achieve independence through the constitution is like saying the SNP could win the same thing for Scotland by persuading the rest of the UK parliament to vote for it – it’s “perfectly possible” in a purely abstract theoretical sense, but could never happen in reality. The arithmetic will always prevent it.
The British and Scottish media, however, has made no attempt to explain any of this, and has colluded with the official Spanish government line at every turn. The most startling example is the way every UK news outlet has casually and repeatedly asserted as fact that the turnout for the October 1 referendum was 43%.
The intention of that, of course, is to suggest apathy and an inconclusive result, but it’s a remarkable empirical distortion of both the truth and the most basic principles of language. Hundreds of thousands of votes were seized by the Spanish police on the day, and the best guesses at the percentage of eligible voters who actually succeeded in casting their votes into a ballot box are around 57%.
Additionally, large numbers of people turned out to vote but were prevented from doing so by police closing polling stations and removing ballot papers and boxes before they could be used, both on the day and preceding days. It therefore seems an extremely conservative estimate to suggest that the REAL percentage turnout – that is, people who went out intending to vote – was at least in the 60s.
(We must presume that other would-be voters were deterred from even trying, purely out of entirely justified fear for their safety, but there’s no means of counting those.)
Of the votes which were able to be counted, over 92% were cast for independence. Statistically the percentage in the seized boxes would be the same, which would mean that even counting every single non-voter as a No, at least 51% of the entire eligible electorate voted for independence – a clear and unarguable mandate.
(Realistically, of course, turnout is never anything like 100% and the actual proportion of the votes cast that were for independence – which is how referendums are counted – would therefore have been significantly higher, and certainly beyond the “decisive” 55% achieved by the No campaign in Scotland’s indyref.)
For comparison, just 37% of the eligible UK electorate voted for Brexit, and 47% of the eligible Scottish electorate voted to remain in the UK. Among the Catalan ballots that weren’t seized and were properly counted, more than 38% of the electorate voted for independence, so even despite the Spanish government’s best attempts at stealing the votes and violently suppressing turnout, Catalan independence still has more of a mandate than the UK is leaving the EU on.
To witness even the best and most diligent of UK journalists not only rejecting these unarguable facts but openly mocking them has been a dismaying and alarming sight.
What is happening in Catalonia in 2017 is indisputably an affront to democracy. The result of a referendum which was conducted with impeccable dignity and propriety under incredible intimidation is discounted, but the people of Catalonia are permitted no legal recourse to achieve their aim.
Their democratically-elected government has been dissolved for no other crime than trying to discover the will of its people. Their media is being taken over by the state. Their politicians are being imprisoned under medieval treason laws. The chief of police has been fired. If these things happened in a Third World country it would rightly be regarded as a coup and the UK press would be baying for military intervention.
(Readers are, most obviously, invited to consider the UK’s reaction if Spain had sent in riot police to violently disrupt a referendum in Gibraltar, then declared the government “dissolved” and invaded despite the residents voting to stay in the UK.)
The core principles of the UN Charter on self-determination are being ignored by the international community. Countries whose own independence was achieved “illegally” and often with much bloodshed turn their backs on the heroically peaceful Catalans, while the international media parrots laughable and transparently false propaganda on behalf of the Spanish government.
(Ireland recognised Kosovo’s 2008 unilateral declaration of independence, which was proclaimed by its parliament without any referendum at all, in just 12 days.)
You cannot say that people who cast their votes but then had them stolen by riot police “didn’t turn out”. You can’t say that those who went to a polling station to vote only to find it smashed up and/or closed by the same riot police “boycotted” the referendum. You can’t say that a government given no lawful options for “properly finding out” what its citizens want is behaving irresponsibly by seeking the best, most peaceful and most democratic solution open to it.
At least, not unless you’re playing by Madrid Rules.
So this is the Catalonian Blair McDougal?
Odd eh. The weird symmetry with Scotland and England’s media .. hold on! Scotland doesn’t have any media!
So its clear, BBC misrepresenting facts (again) and the ‘unions’ so dearly and lovingly fascist, holding together – hands across the fascist divide.
Worse, our Scottish media .. again, not ours, putting effort into the cause for some other countries dictatorship/union.
Almost every opposition paid firebrand the BBC, ITV and SKY interview is introduced as an ‘expert’. The choice is that or ‘respected academic’.
If they don’t present it in that way they’re obliged to be truthful and tell us it’s a second-rate propagandist grabbed from hasty phone calls, or some such description.
If they speak anything close to truth they get demoted or fired for incompetence, thus they are compelled to beef up their own handiwork.
I’m off to Spain tomorrow for a week’s reconnoitring – have packed phrase book, helmet and bullet proof vest. Am looking forward to lining up for the ‘Aliens’ customs points.
If I don’t return, whereabouts unknown, feel free to argue among yourselves.
Adios amigos!
Well said, Rev. Like you I’ve no view on whether or not Catalonia should be independent. I have no dog in the fight, but I do have a view on the misrepresentation of the facts by much of the English language media. The restraint of the Catalan people in the face of police violence and political intimidation has been exemplary, while the determination of so many to attempt to vote in their “illegal” referendum has won my admiration.
In my opinion, the Spanish government has lost what moral authority it ever had, and (most) of our media should take a long hard look at themselves.
Girona 2 Real Madrid 1. A metaphor if ever there was one.
José Rodriguez Mora – CV
link to sevirodriguezmora.com
Alibi says:
30 October, 2017 at 11:08 am
Girona 2 Real Madrid 1. A metaphor if ever there was one.
_________
Were the two Girona goals o.g.’s by Rajoy, Alibi? 😀
Scotland aside, even the international observer community in Catalan to observe the vote, has said the Oct 1st vote is invalid due irregularities.
link to en.m.wikipedia.org
As for Ireland’s PM Leo Varadkar, not recognising Catalonia, like most nations who are spouting the same mantra, that’s the government’s position and not necessarily the position of the countries citizens.
Long live Catalonia, I say.
No idea who Alex Thomson is but could anyone so wilfully stupid be relevant in any conversation about anything?
The re-writing of history is nothing new in regard to “Independence” movements.
As the Rev states – Madrid rules.
The club closes ranks and align with their club member as regard facts and ensure their home media follows the Orwellian increase in chocolate ration.
Democracy is fast becoming an illusion.
Presumably he won’t be there very much longer to make pronouncements about anything.
Surely the way that the Catalan situation is being reported is a perfect illustration of the totally corrupt UK media.
Instead of being allowed to form our own opinion on a topic by perusing reliable unbiased straight reporting of facts it is clear that we are being told what to believe which is really quite scary when one considers that this is what is being inflicted on us every day in particular as regards The Scottish Government and Scottish Independence in general.
Great report, another one! Why is it that absolutely nothing like this information can be read, watched, heard etc, in any main stream teamGB meeja?
And then we come to UKOK dark money. Holy fuck.
HandandShrimp says:
30 October, 2017 at 11:16 am
No idea who Alex Thomson is but could anyone so wilfully stupid be relevant in any conversation about anything?
____
Here you go – don’t you remember the Rangers story?
link to channel4.com
link to en.wikipedia.org
Here is a simple point.
If/when,the Catalan parties boycott the Madrid ordered elections in Catalonia, on December 21st, will the result be declared as invalid ?
Of course, the above depends on those parties even being allowed to stand in said election.
Or, more likely, will the usual double standards apply ?
(Mostly rhetorical question there).
“the international observer community in Catalan to observe the vote, has said the Oct 1st vote is invalid due irregularities.”
Obviously it’s pretty fucking “irregular” if voters are having to vote at random polling stations because riot police have smashed up the proper ones. That doesn’t mean it was crooked.
No surprises there. Whilst many of us will have a great deal of sympathy for Catalunya, observing how this is dealt with by the EU and member states may be very instructive for us. Although there are likely to be some significant differences, the bottom line is that the Eurocrats want to create a single state and electorate and will strongly oppose what they see as the “Balkanisation” of Europe. It makes it much harder for them to rule. The lack of criticism of Madrid speaks volumes (if that is not a contradiction).
excellent piece Stu
Neatly done Rev and yes, I’d say a few of those countries seeking to ignore the UN charter have somewhat short memories concerning their own history.
link to en.wikipedia.org
As I posted yesterday however, people and peoples can be friends, share empathy, morals, ideals and aspirations. Governments and geopolitical diplomacy in general? Not so much apparently. Political expediency, mutual benefit and personal expansion tend to be the order of the day.
Makes having those short memories that much easier to take I’d imagine. Governments rarely reflect their people. If they did, there’d maybe be a damn sight less strife in the world.
Aye that’s radio shortbread’s go to ‘independent expert from Edinburgh Uni’, on most days last week as it was all ‘kicking off’saying Catalonia very naughty no mandate etc etc.
José Rodriguez Mora. 🙂 Now we know more about him.
You kind of get the feeling that the worlds head has succumbed to its curiosity as to what it might find up its own arsehole that its taken the plunge and dived right in to explore and wonder.
Lately I have developed a real sense of dread due to world and domestic events that Ive never experienced before in my life.
The world has had some rocky times but Ive never felt this level of uneasiness about any of them before.
I feel things are accumulating towards something cataclysmic that nobody seems to want to try to prevent.
For me the world has become a whole lot scarier than it ever has been in my lifetime.
The irony is that the very methods they use to keep the cohesion of the European Union, will be exactly the same cause of its destruction. Rather than create unity (even though in smaller nation states), they are creating divisions on a bigger and more permanent scale.
Denying a peoples right, and indeed, expressed wish for self determination ,seldom has a happy outcome.
O/T but what on earth has Brewer done with his hair, as I’ve no longer watch any BBC Scotland grot, like 75% of Scots.
Is it the more mental a tory propagandist you become for aunty Beeb, the sillier your hairdo gets? aka, Andrew Neil’s barnett, colours by Loreal, all of them.
HandandShrimp: Alex Thomson’s chief correspondent for Channel 4 News, which is scarcely reassuring, is it?
For some reason he took a keen interest in the affairs of Rangers FC during its financial meltdown.
I’m always amazed how the issue of Scottish/Catalan independence turns people you think are quite sensible into drivel-spouting, anti-democratic hypocrites, Owen Jones being a good example.
He hasn’t really thought through the message of his own book on The Establishment.
A great summary of the constitutional situation, Rev, which, of course will never be aired on MSM.
So it’s fair to lock a nation into a state from which even a 100% vote for independence could never free them?
Must give the Yoons goose-bumps of a night-time.
Might is right. Just ask your average beeb gimp.
link to bbc.co.uk
[…] Wings Over Scotland Playing by Madrid Rules We’re not a Catalonian-politics website, and we don’t even have a view on whether […]
Looks like the people in Catalonia have no route to voice any opinion as the direction they wish to take, the Spanish Constitution effectively blocking by sheer weight of numbers the inability to effect change, they are effectively bound hand and foot for ever , hence their frustration and declaration of UDI .
This whole situation is in action closer to home, just operating under a different guise, the English parliament, again by weight of numbers blockis real change, and its called democracy, Aye right.
Waken up proud Union supporters, your being pissed on and you don’t even notice the smell .
Brilliant articles ever Rev.
Speaker of House abides with Spanish orders re dissolution of parliament. Looks to elections.
Liz castro says That’s fine – if Pro-indy parties allowed to stand they can re-assert their majority but in Basque elections they weren’t and if that happens in Catalonia, all bets are off.
Human chain around Gov building in Girona to protect Democracy.
Liz Castro just posted link to the Rev’s article above on her twitter feed.
Still no news on Puigdemont. His deputy, the Finance minister, Junqueras has not been
seen at the ministry dept. this morning. Civil servants been dismissed with no back pay, replaced with Spanish officials.
Madrid has accused the Catalan leaders of Sedition, Rebellion and Corruption – so for upholding Democracy they face upwards of 33 years in jail….
Come on Europe where is your voice?
So many things piled on top of one another, and many of them aren’t even specific to the case of Catalonia.
Presenting highly partisan people as impartial experts is everywhere on every issue.
A lazy media which regurgitates press releases or plagiarises someone else, never double checking facts.
Fake news, propaganda, hidden agendas, not so hidden agendas, which gives us a media which totally fails to inform and educate. Where’s the news and balanced debate a democracy needs?
Democracy is all well and good …. as long as voters chose the establishment line, it so often seems.
Politicians who blatantly lie and make promises anyone at all savvy sees through, but the gullible get taken for a ride.
You just have to hope decency, fairness, and people power can muddle through to win.
Watch and weep for this is our future.
We shall get the same treatment when Holyrood is forced to call a referendum with no 2nd Edinburgh Agreement, it will be a London Disagreement next time around.
The world will watch on as we face same obstacles as Catalonia and country after country will turn their back on any request for recognition.
We fucked it, fucked it right up.
@Mike
Stead on there. Your disquiet is almost certainly due to the Information Age feeding you or making it easy to find nasty details you would have been screened from by the MSM back before the explosion of info on the interwebnets.
More and more places are democratic than used to be the case. In my lifetime I’ve seen the end of Franco, of Papa Doc Duvalia in Haiti, of all the military dictators in Latin America. There used to be military juntas in Chile, Argentina, Bolivia and Brazil.
The forces of reaction will always try and hit back, they are trying against Morales in Bolivia. The rich lowland farmers are constantly trying to undermine the government extending power, human rights and equality to the poor in the Highlands. Usually the poor are Amerindians and the rich are Hispanics.
So there will always be setbacks but stuff has gotten an enormous amount better overall in my 51 years on this planet. My mother used to call me her little Indian boy because my ribs always showed. I was a skinny kid with high metabolism and very active and she could never fed me up. Back then India was famine central. Now food security in India is very good. Ethiopia has made great strides in that direction too.
Shit will always happen, the forces of reaction will get elected and push back. But hey, NZ got ride of the Tory National party govt. A Labour dominated coalition is in power and things are getting better (NZ Labour should not be confused with SLAB or UK Labour). We have a long term, stable SNP govt in Scotland. I still sometimes have to pinch myself. Through the vast majority of my life the SNP have been a fringe party, now they are becoming the Establishment. The recent local govt elections will change things by getting rid of Glasgow labour for one thing.
Things are getting better, fight against the reactionaries, resist them. But don’t mistake the arc of progress. Trump was a reaction, he won’t last. Normal service will be resumed as soon as possible.
Interesting to see the same dialogue wheeled out for this. Yesterdays take on the pro Spain demonstration was ‘The Silent Majority’.
Jeeze. Not that again.
The EU logic bubble.
Uppermost in the minds of most EU leaders right now is the very cohesion of the EU itself, especially following Brexit.
In that regard, if they take the Catalan’s side then there is a very real risk that rSpain will leave the EU.
That is the main panic response.
Therefore they are hoping, probably with little in the way of expectation I suspect, that if they ignore the problem, it will go away.
That is, they are hoping that the Catalans will, at least for the most part, go back in their box and accept things as they are.
That is very unlikely to happen, but remains the only straw on the maelstrom.
It is far more likely that Madrid will continue to use repressive measures. Removing powers from the Catalan government, imprisoning elected representatives, taking over and controlling the media, preventing self expression in referendums and of course, possibly much worse (marshall law, curfews etc.)
In that eventuality the EU will be forced to take action because of the infringements of EU law that entails, even if the politicians do not want to. Catalans are EU citizens and therefore entitled to the full protections EU law gives them.
Punitive measures must and will be carried out progressively from fines all the way up to removing Spain’s voting rights on EU matters.
At that point, if Spain continues with its repression but does not leave the EU of its own volition, I believe that eventually an extraordinary summit of the rEU heads will gather to remove Spain’s membership. (There is no mechanism in place for removal within the statutory framework).
But right now, they will wait until that little straw sinks without trace.
The clock is ticking very rapidly for the Madrid government to yet do the right thing.
Otherwise, Spain is out of the EU one way or the other.
Great piece Rev!
I’m very disappointed with France24, Euronews, Aljazeera who are all following Madrid mantra. This is the the fact that there is NO news channel in favour of the Catalans having their voices heard.
I saw on twitter from Liz Castro, who I follow, that 1578 extra coaches over an average Sunday, drove through Catalan road tolls yesterday from outside Catalonia.
That’s 87k people (estimating 55 per coach)
Did they get ideas from the ScotIndy Referendum in 2014, where they bused up Unionists to Scotland?
A few people on here asserting the situation in Spain is totally different from ours,
Oh really how does that pan out then ? , the similarities are there for all to see, it’s that obvious it’s laughable to try and interpret it any other way.
In short get a f/n Grip and use yer brain for once .
I think this provides effective proof that Scotland and Catalonia are merely fronts in what is effectively a World War between the self proclaimed power elites and the ordinary people, suffering to various degrees everywhere because of this notional elites’ sense of entitlement and its inhuman Neoliberal/Fascist ideolgy.
Catalonia D’hondt system. Open to manipulation. Not FPTP like Westminster,
It is reported Puigdemont needed 90 votes. In Catalonian Parliament. Got 72 votes.
They do not have the majority vote. The numbers do not add up. Puigdemont knew that and still went ahead.
2.3Million out of 5.3Million electorate. 30/43% turnout. 700,000 do not have a vote. EU citizens/’foreigners’? No taxation without representation. 7.5Million pop. 1.5Million under 18 years. 6Million left.
The EU/Spain will protect the € – Eurozone. To many people would be adversely affected. Most Catalonian/Spanish politicans are corrupt. Criminals. The Spanish/Catalonians despise them. Low turnout? The majority support putting them in jail.
The same as Brexit 1/3+. 17Million out of 45Million electorate. 62.5Million pop. Being push through without support. The Tories are ignorant incompetents.
Stu I agree with your research and comments. It all comes down to biased UK media somehow working together to trot out the same unbalanced crap so that we feel support for Madrid. If I was cynical I would say this relates to a possible Brexit compromise with Spain on Gibralter. If I am correct then this would indicate WM control of our news.
Excellent article, have shared.
I guess Spain can only really carry out their coup, because they have the blessing of the rWorld and the EU. No doubt they are being curtailed only slightly in that they haven’t gone in all guns blazing which is no doubt what they would prefer, rather than, ‘clear your desks’.
The UK state and other dodgy regimes’ controlled propaganda has a definite purpose. It’s a, don’t try this at home plebs, or else! Especially you at the back, Scotland!
It’s a sad day when the oppression of a people is legitimised by the rules that the oppressors made up and condoned by pretty much all other so called democracies.
It has happened throughout history, but now we get to see it as it is happening, via the internet.
People have treated each other appallingly for eons, that it still happens in the 21st century is depressing.
Has Spain said why they won’t talk, and have they said why they want Catalonia to stay shackled to Spain? No, their government are parasitic bullies.
What must the people of Catalonia be feeling right now. Like captives no doubt.
“[Mora] was instrumental in the creation of a stridently anti-independence Catalonian political party”
Presenting partisan “pundits” and “journalists” to the public without disclosing their known political affiliations is very deceitful and, irrefutably, not “impartial”.
Inform Scotland should submit several such cases to OFCOM when they’re “testing out the new Ofcom process”.
Muscleguy says
You are of course correct. The truth is now much easier to find. Someone somewhere has reported it. The problem with the interweb is there is the lies too but the discerning intelligent person can find the truth.
Consider this. The glorious British Empire’s many transgressions went completely unreported for a couple of centuries. Abuse, torture, imprisionment without trial, all over the Empire. And God help any non white group who sought self determination. With only the msm, the UK population had no idea what was being done.
The industrialisation of the UK was achieved at the de-industrialisation of India. A source of raw materials and a ready market for goods, but no home industry. A corrupt criminal enterprise which went totally unchallenged. The reality was simply hidden.
David, if only we were all as switched on as you, we would not be in this mess we are now.
In short get a f/n Grip and use yer brain for once .
There is a lot to compare and contrast but we don’t know what UK gov would do, if Scotland holds indyref2 without Edinburgh agreement 2.
Teresa’s clearly not going to give UK gov permission any time soon. Maybe who ever takes her job, current chancellor Hammond or even BJ, will perhaps consider allowing Scots ref2, in 5 years time, maybe.
If Holyrood does hold ref2 without agreement/permission from our chums in England, no matter what the result of Scots ref2, its more than likely that UK gov direct rule, like Northern Ireland will be triggered, even on UKOK national security basis, Trident in Argyll at risk etc.
link to en.wikipedia.org
“In the United Kingdom, direct Westminster rule over Northern Ireland, which is also theoretically applicable to Scotland and Wales, may be referred to as suspension of devolution (see Devolution in the United Kingdom).”
Its likely that UK gov would not tell anyone in Holyrood to clear their desks and go home, like the Spanish are, and replacing them with a crew from Westminster, is it?
Viceroy Fluffie Mundell, then becomes the ruler of the separatists in the UK Scotland region, as the beeb gimp network goes in to UKOK overdrive…
Fairly straightforward.
The BBC (et al) are pushing the illusion there is a legal means and justifying Spain’s approach to the illegal UDI.
They hope to cow the soft YES / No vote in Scotland into keeping the Status Quo and rejecting any attempt at Indyref 2 other than one that is given permission by Westminster _ permission that will not be forthcoming.
They are trying to tie the hands of the SNP with the tacit threat of justified State violence should an unsanctioned Indeyref2 go ahead.
And knowing the numbers that bottled it the first time I won’t be surprised when it works
I am older enough to remember Hungary 1956 and the desperate pleas from their government for outside help. History repeating itself
HandandShrimp says:
30 October, 2017 at 11:16 am
No idea who Alex Thomson is but could anyone so wilfully stupid be relevant in any conversation about anything?
…………………
Possibly the reporter for CH4 News?
Re;David Smith@12.19
Scarily an apt observation.
We were watching a new series called ‘Timeless’ on Netflix recently. The whole thing is about a secret, long standing organisation who control all aspects of life, particularly in their own interests, naturally.
We thought about that Bilderberg(?) organisation, with the elites at the controls, while everyone else gets on with normal life, though is it normal?
In ‘Timeless’ the elite running the show are vicious in how they go about controlling the masses, but you never know quite who is on which side, which makes it even more sinister. Only one series made so far, hope they make more.
Peace to Catalonia.
Thanks for that Stuart. Someone’s got to tell us the truth.
I am surprised that people expected the u.n. to do anything as they have been standing by for years and watching the Palestinians being murdered and they land being stolen and by doing and saying nothing they are condoning it they are a complete farce they are only another mirage in this illusion of democracy
Wonder what the EU’s position on Catalan would be if Spain had decided on SPEXIT?
I am fast going off the EU but am, nevertheless, a pragmatist–it’s still the biggest trading block in the world and we need to have access to it. Liking the sound of EFTA more and more.
Good factual article Rev, as per usual.
Looks very like the Catalans have no way to beat this anti democracy policy from Spain, I assume with help from their counter party in the UK, the Tories.
Certainly, the UK press are holding the Westminster line, and are pushing a fascist agenda on to Catalonia.
Utter gutter moves and the sooner the dead wood press is gone from our streets the better. Then the tv, the airways, and all Westminster compliant institutions.
Well, I can dream for the day, but will only become real if we become Independent. Even then we will have things to deal with in the land of corrupt politics rule.
Good luck Catalonia I worry for you.
Must add Ireland has not covered itself in glory either.
Robert Graham 12.18
You Wrote “A few people on here asserting the situation in Spain is totally different from ours,
Oh really how does that pan out then ? , the similarities are there for all to see, it’s that obvious it’s laughable to try and interpret it any other way.”
So let me try to show you why the situation is completely different. Imagine a situation where the main Spanish Parliament held a vote of all MPs in the full national parliament, based upon the proposition that there should be a referendum in Catalonia. Imagine that the MPs representing the whole of Spain voted for Catalonia to have a referendum on Independence. Imagine that the majority of voters in Catalonia then voted against Independence in that referendum.
… then you would have a similar situation in Spain to that which occurred in the UK. Please feel free to point out where you feel I have misrepresented the situation.
In the West governments call it the rule of law when it’s something they want, when referring to other parts of the world behaving in the same way the West calls it abuse of power and condemn it depending on what they want to get out of it
Watch for the imposition of direct rule on Norn Ireland because they have “no choice” then watch for the squeezing till the pips burst of the Republic of Irelands trade and movement then tell me Brexit is all about the EU deal or no deal
In terms of us up here in, what’s the name of our country/region again? *Now is not the time* was another way of saying we’ll deal with you lot later
The big will always bully the small, outsmarting them no longer works when the big gang up together to get their way
because the big gang is more democratic and they’ll even kill you to point that out to you
But they’ll do it legally
Here’s and expert our glorious media, and the Spanish government, should be talking to:
link to ohchr.org
Agree that Alex Thomson’s remark really is a gamechanger in judging the guy as a journalist.
Note though that someone on the Alex Thomson twitter thread from above says that the turnout figure is based on them counting voters IN TO the polling stations –
and therefore the turnout figure is accurate despite the removal of ballot boxes.
Anybody any idea whether this is what was happening?
And yes I am aware that even on this basis those prevented from going to a polling station would not be part of the turnout figure.
On Sky news today, the elected Catalan politicians are referred to as ‘the ring leaders’.
Definition of ‘ring leader’: – a person who leads others against the law or authority.
Synonyms of ‘ring leader’ are: ‘trouble-makers’, ‘agitators’, ‘outlaws’ and ‘inciters’.
The EU is appeasing Spain at all costs. Don’t rock the boat. Surely Europe was taught in 1939 that turning a blind eye to thug rule, was not a long term option? Seems not!
UK media is blatantly misrepresenting the duly elected politicians of Catalan and completely undermining Catalan’s legitimacy to exist.
Just how far are our MSM & Govt prepared to accept this distorted reality? We shall see in the weeks and years ahead. Maybe only when bodies start to pile up in the streets will they stop saying that 2 = 2 = 5. Welcome to Room 101, UK style.
NB Westminster will be seeing with interest just how complicit the UK media is with the truth during Catalan Crisis which does not bode well for Westminster & the UK media’s combined Project Fear2 when Indyref 2 begins for certain altho to be fair, BBC Scotland & Scots papers have never left off Project Fear since 19 September 2017.
Addendum: see above @12.59 last line should read of course 19 September 2014. Apologies.
@Legerwood
He also was educated at University College Oxford according to Wiki but no mention of degree if any.
The Wiki link to “Biodata at Channel 4 website” gives “Page not found”
I assume the Establishment don’t want us to know too much.
He is in my opinion a shill.
I salute the Indefatigability of the Presenters/Reporters & all Unions & membership of same, at Bbc Pravda sound for their dedication in working hard on their future demise.
VISCA CATALUNYA .
Timely posting Rev (shared ) ..
Capn andy 12.10pm. Aye,a ‘silent majority’ that were more likely ‘bussed in.
mike cassidy says:
30 October, 2017 at 12:56 pm
Agree that Alex Thomson’s remark really is a gamechanger in judging the guy as a journalist.
He’s an upper middle class Englishman. Its not like they’re famed for their radical stuff is it?
Upper middle class England and Scotland, is probably one of the most reactionary classes in the West, matched only in and by the USA. USA upper middle class votes Orange Hitler, here its whoever it is leading the tory clown show. Same class would even vote for PM Colonal Ruth.
It wasnt always like this in teamGB but tory media dudes like Thomson are just one of the Thatcherite generation greatest legacies. They’ve all grown fat and tory by osmosis, fat on big salaries with very tasty expenses, the two tier lands of the USA and the UK.
And given that Thomson’s defence is that the Catalan Government gave out the 43% figure –
Does anyone know why the Catalan Government declined to include in the turnout figure the votes that they pointed out were removed?
Bit of an own goal surely.
Or were they naively expecting the world’s MSM to do the moral arithmetic for them?
”Below is a clip from yesterday’s edition of Sunday Politics Scotland. It features a man called José Rodriguez Mora, who was introduced to viewers neutrally as simply an academic from Edinburgh University but was in fact instrumental in the creation of a stridently anti-independence Catalonian political party.”
Great piece of work as per usual Stu. Thanks for that. As to the BBC introducing a ‘neutral’ voice, well we experienced that constantly via the media too in the run up to our Referendum. They are absolute masters of the art of spreading propaganda. Thank God we’ve got people like you attempting to redress the situation on a regular basis.
As to the Catalonians well I reckon they can forget about Madrid, go right over their head and take their case to the International Courts, as expressed by some Catalonian experts recently.
As for Mr Mora I don’t see him supporting us next year, lol. Do you?
I also see that some on here are comparing our situation with the Catalonians. Nothing could be further from the truth for a number of reasons. WGD as per usual brings some reality to the situation.
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
‘Reporting’ the news on the Today programme this morning, Nick Robinson:
‘we’ll wait to see if ‘the Region’s’ leader, Puigdemont turns up for ‘his work’ this morning.’
This is just overtly derogatory. There’s really no longer even any pretence.
This state of affair is what happens when states ignore their external obligations to assist self-determination, in order to supress internal demands for self-determination.
“Fascists!” – Neil Wheedon Watkins Pye
link to sam.gov.tr
THE RIGHT TO SELF-DETERMINATION IN INTERNATIONAL LAW
Scrutinizing the colonial aspect of the right to self-determination
link to gupea.ub.gu.se
link to corteidh.or.cr
At least Madrid has shown more honesty towards Catalonia, than London did to Scotland.
London is underhand and devious. Madrid is in you face, quite literally in terms of brutality.
Our 2014 referendum was never going to be fair and above board. I first heard about Cameron’s DevoMax plans six months before the vote. I confess my initial reaction was that perhaps that is a reasonable compromise if it’s going to be close. However, the closer we got to the vote the more the lies and deceit. It became obvious to me that DevoMax offers would be made falsely.
And the rest is history. Our referendum was sabotaged.
London and Madrid, quite different approaches, same indecisive outcomes. IMO the final outcome will be failure by both, and self determination for Scotland’s and Catalonia.
BREAKING: Catalan president and some members of his government will hold a press conference from Belgium this afternoon; sources.
link to twitter.com
O/T
And for those who were duped in 2014, in particular our pensioners, don’t let them dupe you next time round. Make an effort to find out how wealthy Scotland actually is. Don’t let them brainwash you with their propaganda.
‘Treading a Scottish Path.’
… ”Remember all that about voting No in 2014 because you were worried about your pension? A study out this weekend showed that UK pensions are amongst the worst in the developed world. Only Hong Kong and Taiwan have worse pension provision than the UK, and those are societies in which there is a far more ingrained culture of younger generations having a social obligation to care for their older relatives.
People in the UK are going to have to save far more of their income than they currently are in order to stave off penury in old age, but saving is becoming ever harder as wages stagnate for the many while ballooning for the rich and low paid gig jobs spread across the face of the economy like a bad outbreak of plukes.
Meanwhile the state retirement age in the UK is creeping up, and today’s young Scots could face having to work until their 70s before qualifying for a state pension. And that’s in a country where there are communities where the average life expectancy for men is 65 or lower. Vote to be British, vote to work for a pittance until you drop.”..
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
Sky news rattling their gum’s Puigdemont being offered asylum by Brussels ( Brain Rix writing scripts ) lol .
Their pejorative use of the term “separatists” is now also omnipresent. I’ve lost count of its use over the weekend alone.
¡Qué apestoso!
I see the media have decided to use the phrase ‘sacked leader’ for Catalonian President. I thought an elected leader was deposed as sacked would infer he is an employee rather than the head of the parliament.
@ Nana says at 1:23 pm … ”BREAKING: Catalan president and some members of his government will hold a press conference from Belgium this afternoon; sources.”
link to twitter.com
Thanks for that Nana. No doubt the Guardia Civil black shirts, or rather green, will be miffed that they didn’t get the opportunity to haul them off to a Madrid jail today. The Media will be miffed too. All hanging around for nothing, ha, ha, ha!
BREAKING: Catalan president and some members of his government will hold a press conference from Belgium this afternoon.
Eckle Fechan at 1:25pm
“Their pejorative use of the term “separatists” is now also omnipresent.”
You never hear the media referring to the Spanish government and their supporters as “imperialists”, which is what they are.
The Irish government’s response -unquestioningly parroted by RTE – is shameful, and doesn’t represent the feelings of the Irish people. Realistically, I didn’t expect Varadkar to openly clash with the Spanish government over Catalonia, but he could have made some implicit moves towards sympathy with the Catalans, calls for dialogue and whatever other diplomatic speak governments use to tell each other off in public.
To add to Leo Vardkar’s shame, he’s half Irish and half Indian. You would think both sides of his family history would teach him to be a bit less tone deaf towards independence movements.
O/T
‘Scientific evidence that Scots tend to be different from the other groups in rUK?’
‘‘Good.Co’s regional profile of Scotland tells us that if Scotland were a person, s/he would best match the Advocate personality type: fair-minded, plain-speaking, just, stoic, and perceptive.”
I wonder if scientific evidence would show that the Catalonians are different, say, from the Spainish in general?
link to thoughtcontrolscotland.com
Ooops ‘Spanish.’
I think the catalan gov in exile will have to be very careful that madrids black ops, dont arrange “accidents” for them.
Contributors above point out the highly selective way in which our supine media use the intentionally pejorative term of “separatists” to define Catalonian independistas and other identified “disreputable” members of the body politic.
Strange then, is it not, that the same term is not applied to the Brexiteers?….Just asking.
The British nationalist media, especially the bbc, will do everything it can [spinning and lying] to do down the independence movement in Catalonia in the same way it does to the independence movement in Scotland.
A number of posters have expressed disappointment in the stance of Ireland not supporting Catalonia.
Last time Catalonia declared independence Ireland was fairly supportive of Franco and the Nationalists.
“The Irish Catholic primate Cardinal MacRory was approached in early August 1936 by the Spanish nationalist Count Ramírez de Arellano … for help for the Nationalist rebels. …. Support for Irish involvement was based primarily on the Catholic ethos of most Irish people … Many Irish Independent newspaper editorials endorsed the idea … The Catholic Church was naturally on his side. Many local government County Councils passed resolutions in support … “
link to en.m.wikipedia.org
Other left wing individuals fought for the Spanish Republic. They were treated as pariahs on their return.
link to en.m.wikipedia.org
joannie says:
30 October, 2017 at 1:40 pm
The Irish government’s response -unquestioningly parroted by RTE – is shameful, and doesn’t represent the feelings of the Irish people
Look at how they reacted to the EU actually taxing Apple
link to irishtimes.com
Looks like President Puigdemont will govern in exile from Belgium whilst Rajoy subjugates and oppresses the citizens of independent Catalonia using baton-wielding thugs.
It doesn’t get any more embarrassing than that for Junker. He must be spitting feathers!
Thanks folks, hopefully not the same Alex Thomson otherwise I can only assume he was caught at inopportune moment (ie off his tits).
Further no my post about Ireland. The covert assistance of the UK to the Nationalist rebels is also rather interesting.
link to en.m.wikipedia.org
Again individuals supported the Republic
link to en.m.wikipedia.org
Eckle Fechan says:
30 October, 2017 at 1:25 pm
Their pejorative use of the term “separatists” is now also omnipresent. I’ve lost count of its use over the weekend alone.
¡Qué apestoso!
Mentioned that, too – funny how the supposedly “free” press manages to speak on cue with one, UK imperial voice on the subject of self determination.
I keep imagining the outrage if Putin had suppressed a democratic vote somewhere in the Russian Federation with the brute force employed by Rajoy.
Petra 1.41pm If scotland were a person,they would be,fair minded,stoic,plain speaking,perceptive. Yeah i never seen ‘Intelligent’ in there either.
Aye weel, at the risk o repeatin masel and bein reactionary ?
How dae ye enforce yer will wi nae hauners? Lord help me I’ll even mention sovereignty.
With that out of the way; As is evident, there is and was no option for Catalunya. If the Law says you can’t do it, it’s unlawful, unless another Law supercedes it. But of course it doesn’t. Being repetitive – it needs a Law to be enforced. Spain is enforcing, no-one else is enforcing an alternative.
I believe Catalunya already went down the UN route in the 50’s under Franco for assistance and received short shrift then (experts will correct me) What could the UN do now? Well, it dragged its heels letting Spain in, and then fudged the “resolutions” a bit to let them join later. Ostensibly as a bullwark against communism, but Catalunya was on nodding terms with communism, so perhaps the UN isn’t really that sold on Catalunya after all..
All laws are malleable.
So, what’s their best shot at resolving the issue?
The only thing the UN can do is to say ‘resolve it by doing “X” or you’re out of the UN’ or there will be sanctions (The EU similarly) That is where power and not Law comes into it.
If you don’t do as we say, there will be consequences. Political, economic, militarily – whatever you fancy.
So, I’m tentatively suggesting, this issue is one where generally it’s perceived as “that’s not really fair” Spain’s position is “Meh, what can you do?” That attitude of Spain comes from power.
What power?
Surely Spain itself cannot stand up to the rest of Europe & the UN? Well, if one extrapolates from the votes on Spain’s exclusion/ accession from & to the UN, I think pretty much of South America supports Spain. Possibly a fair few EU member states do also.
Power politics. Not legal politics.
Finally how is this relevant to Scotland?
Well, primarily, it revolves around our “Legal & Sovereign” right to determine our future; that our decision must be respected and upheld. It would go to court if it didn’t and we’d win, the world would recognise and validate us etc.
No, it definitely is not a given.
Which court would we thrash this out in? Well, if going by the book that would be the Supreme Court, which is a UK institution. The Parliament of which is Sovereign in these matters, with one odd exception; the Parliament “should” abide by statute EU laws and various other treaties which bind it, but the Supreme court does not have to. It only has to take them into consideration when reaching a verdict.
Naturally, with primary Sovereignty, the UK Parliament need not abide by eg; UN/EU statute laws, treaties etc. Or even a verdict of the Supreme Court. Frequently hasn’t,frequently disregards them. Especially if they are ‘treaties’ and not incorporated into Statute Law’ – which is the closest the UK has to a written constitution. It’s not in the power of our Supreme Court to overturn our Parliament in the manner of the USA either.
Brexit removes the requirement for the Supreme Court to take any of the ‘EU statute laws’ into consideration, or at all. At least until they are incorporated into UK statute law.
When (if) they become incorporated, they become very, very malleable again.
Let’s face it even Holyrood, like the Catalonian parliament, could be dissolved. Smith couldn’t get it locked solid because A UK Parliament can’t bind a subsequent one. Great trick that. He said so himself. He could think of no way (short of Independence) to ensure the autonomy of the Scottish Parliament. Even though it was the de-facto & de-jure will of the Scottish people. Now that would make it a Sovereign will.
The Sovereign will of the Scottish people and ‘law’ has already been tested. There was no way to incorporate that ‘Sovereignty into a perpetually binding statute on UK governments.
So, there is no cast iron “Scotland has sovereign right and law and settled will and mandates vested in…yada yada – we are now independent everyone agrees, so there – Dixi !” However, the famous ‘plague of boils may well infest any UK government which goes down the route of denying it. But they would have to fear the consequences. Which means they fear a power.
So the questions which intrigue me the most are : “What is the nature of this power they would fear? What would the consequences be for the UK?”
I await a kicking on anything I have suggested is factual, in regards the way the UK parliament & law etc. operates and on my tentative history, if it is demonstrably flawed or incorrect. Rightly so.
The rest is an opinion piece and should merely be agreed or disagreed with.
There were a couple of questions at the end.
@galamcennaleth – you raise a good point about the Spanish Civil War there. At that time Irish political sympathies were split along Republican vs Free Stater lines – with the Sinn Féiners and Fianna Fáil being sympathetic to the Spanish Republicans, and the Cuman na Gaelers being sympathetic to Franco and his crowd. Leo Varadkar is, of course, a Fine Gaeler and therefore one of the political heirs of Cuman na Gael, so if you look at it that way, its no surprise at all that he’s again sided with the most reactionary forces in Spain.
Excellent research and presentation!
Looking at blogs bbc, guardian and others, it’s alarming!
I’ve had a life long opinion that the average English person has a sense of ‘Fair Play’. What I am seeing on these blogs is a disregard for democracy and an attitude of no surrender. I do questioned if those who are on the blogs are representative, but I do see a definite swing to the right.
We will not give up Scotland, Falklands or Gibraltar, etc. And the commonly seen ‘we gave them a vote’. They then contradict themselves by citing Spain’s right to crush Catalans supporting self determination. This then morphs into why isn’t the EU coming to aid the Catalans!
So many mixed messages but the underlying factors are intolerance and inability to see right from wrong!
If the uk did not have its Scottish and Irish problems and brexit had not happened, I wonder if opinions on these blogs from south of the border would be different?
But we are where we are, it’s alarming to think we may have to continue in a union where the right are so warped and on the rise!
I see that Rajoy has chosen Soraya Sáenz de Santamaría, Deputy Prime Minister of Spain and Minister of the Presidency, to become Madrid’s enforcer in Catalonia. Sent in to oversee the day-to-day running of Catalonia’s affairs.
She’s one tough cookie but she’s got a hard job ahead of her to say the least. She / they won’t win in the end either. It may take 3/4 years but the Catalonians will get there.
link to en.wikipedia.org
From Iain Macwhirter, political editor of the Sunday Herald:
‘As the old slogan says: The Catalans united can never be defeated.’
link to heraldscotland.com
Beautiful reporting, rev. As someone above said, these are genuinely scary times. And yet, your voice has emerged. Just this one article puts you among the most forensic and most decent of all European reporters.
Sorry, but just to say that again, in my mind just this one article puts you amongst the most perceptive and most important journalists in Europe, at a time when governments want to be in control of people rather than to be the vehicles of people.
Fab, rev.
“Obviously it’s pretty fucking “irregular” if voters are having to vote at random polling stations because riot police have smashed up the proper ones. That doesn’t mean it was crooked.”
Agreed, I’m pointing out how the international community (bar a few) are attempting to delegitimise the vote.
Excellent piece Stu.
Cleared up a couple of mathematical and constitutional questions that were whirring around in my head.
@ Bob p says at 2:10 pm …. ”Petra .. If scotland were a person,they would be,fair minded,stoic,plain speaking,perceptive. Yeah i never seen ‘Intelligent’ in there either.”
Lol, it seems it just goes without saying Bob.
A comment under the current BBC story on Catalonia:
“36. Posted by casualobserver84
If Scotland had held an illegal referendum then declared independence i would have expected the UK govt to do the same.”
Just in case we are in any doubt!
Spain’s Attorney General, has set bail for the main Catalan government players at €6,207,450 for each case.
According to Catalan news there’s 20 “accused.”
Yet, those who did not participate in the declaration of independence itself on Friday October 27 are not exempt, according to the Spanish Attorney General.
Indeed, charges are being brought to the Catalan government ministers for their “decisions and acts in the last two years” which Maza qualifies as showing “total contempt” for the Spanish constitution.
@David McDowell
There is no such thing as an illegal referendum in Scotland.
“Nationalist”, “Separatist” are IMO terms best avoided when trying to impart a positive message. Too much baggage. Multiple meanings without a string of caveats to clarify. I prefect to go with “Pro Democracy Activist”.
When speaking to Unionists I will no longer answer to the term “nationalist” … yes, I know, you can spout forth about civic nationalism being different etc etc..
However, where appropriate I will call Unionists nationalists because all that baggage tends to fit with their nationalism!
Chick McGregor at 2:56pm
“There is no such thing as an illegal referendum in Scotland”
I didn’t say there was. What’s your point?
‘Heroically peaceful Catalans’ 🙂
THAT is the phrase that I will always carry with me and pass on to my grandchildren.
I agree with Chick. The Scottish Government can hold a second referendum when ever it likes. All referenda are advisory. The clause 30 we all heard so much about last year is an agreement between WM and SG that any result if Yes will be accepted by WM.
The Wee Ginger Dug had an article on this very issue a few days ago in the National. Probably still on the Nationals website.
@Iain mohr 2:12pm
Here’s an idea.
Well, the people of Scotland are sovereign in Scotland. That does not, probably will not, wash with Westminster and the so-called Supreme court should Scotland hold indyref2 without Westminster’s “consent”. Even if it did have this “consent” I wouldn’t put it passed Westminster to still ignore a Yes vote.
Scotland, after a Yes vote which Westminster rejects, could then go to various courts. The British courts will all reject Scotland’s independence of course. The EU probably as well although how the EU feels about Westminster after brexit could play a big part in the EU’s view of Scotland’s independence. Westminster has pissed off many in the EU.
We might have a better chance with the UN. Scotland is different from Catalonia in that it has a clearer history of independence. We still have strong pre-union systems of law and education for example. We have our banking system. Scots law and Scots lawyers could play a big role in persuading other nations of our cause.
It seems to me Holyrood has, over the last few years, been quietly establishing closer ties with many EU states and with states like Norway and Iceland. This softly softly approach could prove vital in the near future.
What should we proles do in the meantime? Well, as I’ve said before, we must boycott the British nationalist media and refuse to pay the bbc tax. Boycott goods which have the Butcher’s Apron all over it. Donate to pro-indy websites and pro-indy parties. We must prepare for some form of peaceful civil disobediance.
The Scottish government could, as WGD has suggested, wait until the 2021 election and make it a definitive referendum on independence in itself. Personally I’m not so sure we should wait that long.
The things Westminster worries about most, in my opinion, are losing face internationally and losing money. So, the Scottish government should start by withdrawing its MPs from Westminster. It should have a vote on independence, regardless of Westminster, regardless of the current britnat presiding officer and regardless of any britnat boycott in parliament. A Yes vote does not need to be followed immediately by a declaration of UDI. Things should simmer.
There will probably be economic side effects but these will impact on ruk just as much as ourselves. In fact the false claims of Scotland being an economic burden on poor England would soon be shown to be the lie it is.
We as individuals must be prepared to make sacrifices. Pro-indy politicians likewise. Those SNP MPs back from Westminster could be used as Scotland’s ambassadors around the world, especially in the UN and in nations where we have built up stronger relations [above].
If Westminster decides to try to physically close down Holyrood our political leaders must be prepared to set up government elsewhere, abroad if neccessary. We non-politians must be prepared to help them out financially and through support via the web.
As all the simmering continues Westminster will be losing face and money. Either they will back down and allow negotiations [via the UN etc] of they will impose some kind of marshall law over Scotland. The latter will just lead to more loss of face and money, especially if we pro-indy souls continue to use boycotts and civil disobedience.
Having said all this, things will probably work out in a totally different way. Maybe worth a wee thought though.
Proud Cybernat @12:52pm
I think the EEC was a good idea, though I have concerns over the way it has evolved into the EU, and now the direction the EU appears to be heading in.
I’m also deeply concerned about the anti-democratic influence of the European Central Bank.
Saying that, I feel that Scotland’s entry into the EU would help to move the political balance within the various associated institutions, away from neo-liberal corporatism and back towards a respect for pluralistic democracy. Whether this would be welcomed by the current EU hierarchy, is another mater entirely though.
The pluralistic legitimacy of the EU hangs in the balance, IMHO.
@dan huil 3.23.
Are you completely ignorant of the FACTS or just being deliberately stupid ?
Your post is a pile of steaming crap.
At best, uneducated crap, at worse, deliberate misleading crap.
Again, just for you.
There is NO SUCH THING as an ILLEGAL referendum in relation to Scotland holding one, but hey, you feel free to post which statute/law makes one ILLEGAL.
Please do not quote the ENGLISH supreme court, which ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT supersede Scots law on Scottish matters such as Sovereignty of the PEOPLE of Scotland.
Yet again, just for you, a Section 30 order IS NOT permission to hold a referendum.
If you are not even aware of such basic realities, then you are best just to shut the fuck up until you are better versed in fact, rather than fantasy.
Apologies to dan huil, my last post was aimed at iain mhor, slavering zoomer..!!
Although, what i wrote on sovereignty stands.
Hmm @geeo..
Apologising then saying f’ off to someone else, almost in the same breath, sounds like you’re stressed pal.
At the risk of repeating what others have said here or on previous recent threads –
Scotland is a country.
Scotland is internationally legally recognised as a country; even the UK’s self-description lodged at the UN since 1945 makes it clear that Scotland is a country. A country in union by treaty with another. Once the Scottish people have spoken and the Scottish sovereign body (ie the parliament) declares the end of that Treaty, Scotland is legally independent. There are no legal grounds upon which the other countries of the world could reject or refuse to recognise our independence.
Scotland is not part of England.
Catalonia is a region, it can also claim to be a nation, it is however very much not a country.
Catalonia is part of Spain.
Thus anyone claiming the situations are the same is overlooking the most obvious legal differences, both in terms of the actual conduction of a referendum, and of the international reaction to it.
Great article IMO Stu. Queensberry Rules provided order to the world of boxing but let us hope that Madrid Rules will not set a new developed world standard for anti-democratic forces. They do serve as a clear reminder to the entire world that modern Spain has not yet recovered from the times of General Franco or the Spanish Inquisition. Dark Forces seem to have been institutionalised. Catalonia, and democracy, needs help from as many corners of the globe as can provide it.
David McDowell
Well, I didn’t say you did. 😛
I was correcting the person you quoted.
Bourdieu and ‘Habitus’ 😉
link to powercube.net
Who’s ‘Rid’ and where the hell does s/he rule?
The pro independence parties intend to stand in the December elections. Sounds like a sensible step, especially if they can get a majority again 🙂
I assume their manifestos will include a commitment to Indy. Or, what’s the betting, Madrid makes it illegal to stand on any policy which it deems ‘unconstitutional’.
Suppose they win a majority, before the world, and again say they stand by Catalonia’s independence.
What will Madrid do then?
Sounds like Madrid is taking a risk with this election. Or, do they plan something subversive?
@geeo 3:45pm
Nae worries, geeo. As I said it was just an idea to throw in the pot in reply to Iain mohr’s post. None of us knows for sure what will happen in the next few years.
Its at least 10 years since I looked this up, not that it means a lot, Catalonia has never been an independent state. Before the eventual merger of Castile and Aragon it was a region of Aragon. It did have a minor king at one point in the very distant past a bit like the Pictish kingdoms which were subject to an over king.
But prior nation statehood is not a prerequisite for independence nor is it always a justification.
Scotland as a nation state which entered into a voluntary union with another nation state under a treaty of union is in a different category because really it is dissolution of that union rather than secession.
To be honest I think that Puigdemont jumped the gun on this. And I can hear the groans (aw naw Ken2!) from here, lol. He knew that holding a referendum would be considered to be illegal. He knew that Rajoy / Madrid would never accept the outcome of the Referendum and that the EU wouldn’t support them with all that entails, such as businesses considering leaving. The polls prior to the referendum showed support of between 36% and 42% (if they were right?). Under such circumstances he should have waited until the polls prior to holding a referendum showed well over 50% support, imo. He / his party could have paid for a poll to be carried out. That to me would have made a massive difference. All they can do now is hope that they get the chance to hold a properly supervised referendum, sometime in the future, to prove that they’ve got support for Independence (or not).
We on the other hand aren’t faced with the same restrictions and we can hold a consultative referendum if we want to. UDI is clearly out for us and a referendum without the Section 30 order would be dodgy, imo. You’d have the Unionist leaders in Scotland (and elsewhere) calling for people to boycott it. We could say too bad to that, but if it were to happen with a massive drop from the 85% turnout we had previously I doubt the result would be recognised by international agencies.
Nicola is obviously aware of that, that having over 50% of the sovereign Scots vote for independence is absolutely crucial. Not 62% of Scots who voted to remain in the EU as part of the Union. So is there anything else that we can do? Maybe Nicola has something up her sleeve? Her Constitutional experts have? Or will we just have to bite the bullet and go for an advisory referendum and if we win get on the phone to Queenie, Queen of the Sovereign Scots, or take the issue to an International Court? Or would Westminster just accept the result? Somehow I don’t think so.
………………………………….
‘One option could be to hold a “consultative referendum,” which would not be authorised by the British parliament, making it advisory rather than binding. Ailsa Henderson, a professor of political science at Edinburgh University, has said it would have a “slightly different constitutional situation, but the basic principle holds”. Westminster would still need to negotiate with the Scottish Government, though.’
link to inews.co.uk
link to legislation.gov.uk
Chick McGregor at 4:05 pm
“@David McDowell Well, I didn’t say you did. I was correcting the person you quoted.”
Perhaps, but by prefacing the comment with “@David McDowell” it appears as if you are correcting me!
galamcennalath says-
“The pro independence parties intend to stand in the December elections. Sounds like a sensible step, especially if they can get a majority again ?”
I wonder if outsiders, holiday home owners etc. are allowed to vote in Catalonia, either in their elections, or in their referendum.
Exactly chick@4.20pm (dissolution of the voluntary union rather than secession).
People really need to remember that basic reality.
Sorry, not the intention. Normal practice here to just indicate post replied to. Often there are many quoted links in a post.
It looks like both Brexit and Catalonia will be taking a back seat as politicians in the UK chase each other with pitch forks. I must say I thought inappropriate behaviour had been largely booted out the workplace more than a decade or two ago but it seems not so in the circles of power.
The papers love a good witch hunt and in this instance it looks like there might be some real witches to burn.
@ galamcennalath says at 4:12 pm …. ”The pro independence parties intend to stand in the December elections. Sounds like a sensible step, especially if they can get a majority again ?”
I read somewhere that they won’t be allowed to stand galamcennalath. May not be correct of course. Poopa-ganda? We’ll just have to wait and see.
Someone on here said that catalonia is not a country its a region, well here is a little history lesson, as far as i know the region
as it was called was invaded and taken over about 300 years ago, the people never agreed to be part of spain, just like scotland over 300 years ago, the people never agreed to be part of any union, in fact people rioted in the streets of scotland, but the parcel of rogues had allready filled their pockets with english gold, and when did Irish and Welsh people give their consent to a union with england, i cannot find any historical evidence that King Edward had everyone round for tea and asked them if they would like to join his little imperialist unionist party, be like sitting down for tea with Mr Khan, and i don’t mean Mr Khan the boxer, who seems like a nice all round good egg lol
galamcennalath @2:58
Old-school nationalism is rooted in emotions born out of a sense of cultural superiority (see Brexit ‘debate’).
Moderate patriots care about what is best for their own nation.
” That the US, UK, Germany, France and many others recognise the unilateral secession of Kosovo, but deny Catalans the same right, obviously has much more to do with alliances and power politics than any adherence to legal or theoretical principles. Spain’s membership of both the EU and NATO means that it is being treated differently, and this lays bare a selective approach to international law. ”
link to archive.is
re Spain, Serbia and Kosovo
link to archive.is
link to archive.is
galamcennalath
I forgot to say that I call myself an ordinary punter and if that doesn’t work, a human rights activist. 😉
Catalonia was the first Spanish mainland province to officially ban bullfighting. The Catalan Parliament voted on the ban in 2010 and the law was implemented in 2012.
However, the Spanish Constitutional Court overturned the ban in 2015, claiming that it went again the Spanish constitution and that an autonomous province did not have the right to ban bullfighting outright.
If I recall the use of rubber bullets was also banned in Catalonia, by the Catalan government. That didn’t stop Madrid using them on voting day.
It would appear the Spainish Constitution over rides all else. As if it was passed down to Spainish by the hand of god.
John h 4.32pm. December elections. Without international observers. This will be a madrid rigged election.
@mike cassidy
Thanks for those links.
I was about to post that the EU current position over Catalonia’s case, albeit perhaps/likely a transient one, has the potential to fuel new controversy over Kosovo, even at this late stage.
Just noting that the msm are also missing out the FACT that an overall majority in the 135 seat catalan parliament voted for the declaration of independence. You have to dig around to find this information as the msm line is that 70 voted for the declaration and 10 voted against and a mysteriously unobtainable number called the rest of the parliament, boycotted the vote. So just in case you want to know it was, 70 for the declaration, 10 against and 55 boycotts or abstentions. So that makes an overall majority of 5.
ps. The ten votes against the declaration might reasonably suggest that there are 80 out of 135 members of the Catalan parliament who believe in democratic processes and would be happy to let the people decide in a fair and peaceful referendum.
O/T.
Boom Boom Boris busted again.
link to scientistsforeu.uk
SCOTLAND didnt enter into a voluntary union with england. There was no referendum,the scum,or as rabbie called ‘a parcel o rogues ‘didnt SPEAK for Scotland.
The EU and Spain are stuck with one another. Spain won’t “Spexit” and the EU needs them and couldn’t unilaterally chuck them out if it wanted to. It could take a long time for a collective decision. Then only if Spain didn’t have supporters within the members. Unlikely.
Sanctions or other available rebukes within the EU framework is about it. Have we seen much of that happening, is there any precedent for ‘punishing’ misbehaving EU members? Have they actually contravened anything within EU ‘Law’ which would demand swift action? Doesn’t appear to be the case.
The UN, as pointed out already here, is somewhat of a toothless tiger. They have certainly tutted and looked over their horn-rimmed spectacles, but that’s about it.
However, as power politics, we can be sure alliances are forming and re-forming. It’s very interesting that Belgium have offered asylum. Very interesting.
Now why would that be? Of all the countries in the world, an EU member and its capital, which as much as any has a vested interest in keeping “seperatism” at bay. Very odd I find that. Allowing Catalunya to issue statements, from effective asylum within Belgium. Yes, the Flemish were sympathetic, yes there are parallels in that the Flemish want shot of those Wallonians. Belgium is not the EU, but that was very quick off the mark. It also now puts Belgium ostensibly at odds with the official EU “internal matter” for Spain. This is obstructing the internal affairs of Spain.
It can only be looked upon as a tacit acceptance of the legitimacy of Catalunya’s stance by the EU. At the very least it’s sending some seriously mixed messages.
Is this a slap at the Walloons? Well they can’t take it any other way, it’s obviously slapping Spain too. Pretty much a general flexing of the muscles at EU members.
I know some here take offence at my “Hauners” but Belgium must have that surely. Germany/France? If so it’s good news for Catalunya, but if it’s a collective of other EU members that’s a major schism in Europe forming.
Damnably interesting stuff though.
OT
Can I be really trivial and juvenile and say what a delight it is to find Trump involved in a Gatesgate scandal.
Advice for rajoy , dont go down the road of suppression,or else you’ll be getting basque part 2. Is that what Spain wants/needs?.we need rational thinkers and cool heads here.
link to archive.is
Spain’s never ending corruption problem doesn’t seem to be getting a mention!
You never know what to actually post on here. Who tells the truth or not?
link to cataloniavotes.eu
The Catalans next step needs to be a withdrawal of labour,shut the factory gates,down tools close the bus stations,airports,ports all infrastructure stopped,close the shops the banks the media the councils,
close and stop everything,
no violence,
or as SNP supporter Jimmy Reid put it,
‘There will be no hooliganism. There will be no vandalism. There will be no bevvying, because the world is watching us’
it`s the only way forward or it will be a slow stalemate which the Spanish State will be happy to let go on for years/ever.
Iain mhor. 5.12. Agree iain,wonder when the eu will punish belgium for giving sanctuary to terrorists.could soon be madrids words. Getting pi**ed off with all this sh**e now. Seems like the little guys in the EU are being sh*t on from a ‘small ‘ height.
Iain mhor..you do not half dribble some pish.
You will find out that the EU/U.N. will indeed have to act when/if the Catalan government take their case to the international courts, where some stark realities will be addressed.
1. UN charters on a peoples inalienable right to self determination supercede a nation state’s constitution regarding referendums.
The stance of SPAIN, denying a referendum, is the illegal position here.
2. The UN/EU will risk looking quite ridiculous when their own charters/laws/constitutions, are thrown at them across the floor of an international court which has been convened to address their failure to follow said charters etc.
If the UN/EU were found in breach of their own rules etc, then the door swings open to further legal challenge on EVERY rule etc they have.
People need to understand how the EU/UN works.
BREAKING from Pravda Quay
with Jackie Kim Ono
link to imgur.com
Scot finlayson 5.37pm.agreed.and also Catalan businesses should refuse to serve madrids stormtroopers guardia civil. Etc etc.hotels bb’s,cafes,restaurants,.Do what the nationalist populace done in ulster and refuse to have any interactions with these occupying forces.
Proud Cybernat @ 17:41,
Yet another good one, PC.
We remain undaunted as long as we can laugh!
Robert Kerr says:
30 October, 2017 at 1:02 pm
@Legerwood
He also was educated at University College Oxford according to Wiki but no mention of degree if any.
The Wiki link to “Biodata at Channel 4 website” gives “Page not found”
I assume the Establishment don’t want us to know too much.
He is in my opinion a shill.
………………………….
Wiki did say he graduated from Oxford but his degree was not mentioned. He also has a postgraduate degree from University of Cardiff which he would not get if he did not already have a degree.
Although he was educated in England I had the impression he was Scottish – and not from a wealth family if one of the few interviews he has given is anything to go by. I have the feeling he tends to try to keep out of the public eye apart from when he is working.
He did a lot of reports about the Rangers debacle and received quite a few threats as a result. He also had some trenchant comments about the Scottish press and their reporting of the Rangers saga.
He has also reported on land reform in Scotland
Liz Castro reporting that the Vice President of Spain has said that
“if the independentistas win the election in December they will re-impose Article 155”
…sounds like something Mugabe would say not a country that is in the EU.
So, have we to believe that Democracy now means doing what your told.
I thought it was something to do with the voice of the people expressing their wishes – silly me.
Of course, here, they’re still obsessed with sexual harassment – oh look a squirrel
( I’m not dismissing the seriousness of sexual harassment just complaining about the blanket coverage which occupies time that could be informing about Kurdistan and Catalonia.)
Bob p @ 17:46,
The real sovereignty test begins now. All the votes in all the plebiscites of the Iberian peninsula and all the judgements in all the high courts count for nothing if enough of the people refuse to accept them.
Which is why it’s a fundamental necessity that a majority are in support of independence. It’s awkward when the division is more evenly balanced, as it may be in this case. Intolerant heavy-handed repression by Madrid may or may not have the intended effect. The interaction that now occurs between the “occupiers” and the “natives” may tip either way.
It’s really down to the people of Catalonia now.
PC, LOL! Heil taxi!
Further to my post yesterday regarding Israel trying to pass the Greater Jerusalem Bill which would create israeli enclaves of the 6 major illegal settlement (under international law, which israel breaches with impunity) and involving 140,000 israeli’s, giving them full voting rights for Jerusalem elections, (creating a 70% israeli population), the following happened today.
FIFA has ruled that they will be taking no further action against the Israeli FA regarding football teams playing within the 6 illegal settlement i mentioned in my earlier post, despite there being a clear breach of FIFA rules on the issue.
The day after israel delayed implementing the Greater Jerusalem Bill (due to american pressure, so it WILL still happen) FIFA clear the pitch (sic)
to make their football teams legitimate, despite being contrary to FIFA rules.
The Palestinian FA are preparing a court case apparently, and quite rightly so.
……..
Still having trouble creating links to Al Jazeera app, will try again shortly to link the FIFA story.
It is reported Catalonia Gov had to get 90 votes. 2/3? Puigidemont got 72.
FIFA story…link to archive.is
With the Brexit negotiations, it is clear if British banks want to operate in Europe, they are going to have to office technical, legal and managerial staff there.
It is also obvious that if Britain wants a trade deal, they are going to have pay a ‘divorce settlement’ for commitments made when they were members.
It is also obvious that investment in the UK is being put on hold and companies and considering moving out of Britain. That happens in periods of uncertainty, not only in ones caused by constitutional changes but also changes of governments that are perceived not to be business friendly.
The same applies to Catalonia. Whether Catalonia likes it or not, if they do get independence, Spain is their biggest trading partner and if they want to deal, they will need to pay a divorce settlement as well. Therefore, Spain won’t go down the toilet if a wealthy region leaves because if Spain goes down, so does Catalonia.
Catalonia is to a point in the same situation as Britain yet the coverage is completely different. During out referendum, it was Project fear, with the Catalans, it’s becoming like Project Doom.
With this nonsense given out by the media, it is giving Rajoy carte blanche to do with his wants, rather than a sensible solution that was acceptable to both sides.
Of course, the British media has it’s own agenda in relation to our attempts for Independence but the American media are the worst. No wonder Trump loses his rag with them. Fake news? A five year old could write better news than them.
At ken500
A plebescite is 50% plus one vote. They got 90%
A parliamentary majority is a simple majority. Plus one seat.
Anything else is a bastardisation of democracy. The notion that a represented view of the public needs a 2/3rds approval to be valid in a democracy is just nonsense.
The permanent representative of the Catalan government to the EU, Amadeu Altafaj, resigned on Monday, TASS reported. The decision came after the Spanish government closed the Catalonian envoy’s office in Brussels, according to Altafaj’s letter published by Ara newspaper. The EU has not taken an active enough position towards the Catalonia crisis, he said.
Europe should always promote seeking solutions and strengthening dialogue, Altafaj wrote.
link to rt.com
What we are witnessing is a conflict between Spain’s right to maintain it’s territorial integrity and the Catalonia ‘people’s’ right to self-determination. If the Catalans are a “people” in the same way Scots are, then they have international law on their side.
link to hwww.tamilnet.com
Territorial Integrity
link to pesd.princeton.edu
link to usip.org
Meg merrilees @ 30 October, 2017 at 6:07 pm
Sexual harassment and the patriarchal hegemony that allows it has been going on for ever yet it is only getting coverage now.
It is no coincidence that it is just happening now when there is so much going on at home and in the world. It is simply mis-direction and burying bad news.
@pacman.
Name one company which has ACTUALLY left Catalonia since the referendum ?
Moving the HQ is not the same as ACTUALLY ceasing to trade and operate in Catalonia, so again, name one.
Mayor of Dublin welcomes the
Republic of Catalonia
video here
link to twitter.com
@Robert Graham says: 30 October, 2017 at 12:18 pm:
“A few people on here asserting the situation in Spain is totally different from ours,
Oh really how does that pan out then ? “
It pans out as both the Scottish situation and the United Kingdom situation are different from both the Catalan and Spanish situation.
Or hadn’t you noticed that?
” … the similarities are there for all to see, it’s that obvious “
Aye! So they are – as are the differences.
“it’s laughable to try and interpret it any other way.”
Says the guy who cannot apparently see the differences – maybe because he doesn’t want to.
“In short get a f/n Grip and use yer brain for once.
Oh! Dear! I’d better not say any more or I’ll be getting accused of being abusive — again.
Wise up, Robert, no one has ever claimed there are not, “similarities”.
The term, “similarities”, implies there are obvious differences.
They are similar – not identical nor are they the same.
Now that really does make your silly outburst and your abusive comment rather hilarious.
spanish vp, ” if the catalan indy supporters win the election on 21st dec, they wont accept the vote”
um……………
Point of observation ~
On the 1st October 2017, both peaceful Yes AND No Catalonian voters were assaulted with violence by Rajoy’s riot squad.
Both Yes AND No voters were beaten up.
A minority of No voters were assaulted.
Have the no now gone frae No to Yes?
Some and same journey eh.
geeo @ 30 October, 2017 at 6:27 pm
This is me you are talking to, not comic book newspapers that says the 1000’s of companies are leaving, yet can’t name one.
Where in my post did I say that any company has left Catalonia?
Ken501 says:
It is reported Catalonia Gov had to get 90 votes. 2/3? Puigidemont got 72.
————–
who reported this? where was it reported? franco’s headstone? the stars? or did your handler tell ya that
geeo @ 30 October, 2017 at 6:27 pm
Not sure if my other comment went but I can’t be bothered typing it up again.
Where in my comment, did I say that a company has left Catalonia?
link to en.wikipedia.org
“On 18 February 2008, the President of the TRNC congratulated the people of Kosovo on their new-found independence, in direct opposition to the Republic of Cyprus, which rejects Kosovo’s declaration of independence,[10] but not Turkey, which was the fifth country to recognise Kosovo.[11] However, presidential spokesman Hasan Ercakica stated that the TRNC was not preparing to officially recognize Kosovo.[12] In contrast, the Republic of Cyprus has rejected Kosovo’s declaration of independence and, given the ICJ ruling that Kosovo’s declaration of independence was not illegal, stated that Kosovo and Northern Cyprus were not analogous situations.[13] Some analysts have argued that the independence of Kosovo could provide support for the recognition of Northern Cyprus.[14] ”
That’s Mícháel McDonncha, the first Sinn Féin mayor of Dublin. Good for him.
@Andy Anderson says: 30 October, 2017 at 12:25 pm:
“Stu I agree with your research and comments. It all comes down to biased UK media somehow working together to trot out the same unbalanced crap so that we feel support for Madrid.”
That’s a very astute observation, Andy.
… If I was cynical I would say this relates to a possible Brexit compromise with Spain on Gibralter. If I am correct then this would indicate WM control of our news.”
Thing is, Andy, there is really absolutely no doubt that Westminster does indeed control our news. In fact it isn’t our news it is their news.
In spite of their propaganda that leads people to imagine that they, the licence payers, pay for the BBC it simply isn’t true.
Yes the BBC is responsible for collecting the Licence fees and issuing the actual licence. However the term Licence means the holder is given permission – in this case permission to view live Video Broadcasts from any source. Not just from the BBC – If the BBC ceased to exist tomorrow the government would still demand viewers paid for a licence to view the other broadcasters.
The Licence fee money goes to the Treasury and belongs to the Treasury. The BBC, as a private corporation, can, and does, make money from selling services and programmes but it’s main income is from a Westminster Grant that has, just by coincidence, recently been renegotiated. I really have no idea if the licence fees collected is greater or less than the BBC gets back in return.
As for the dead tree press and independent broadcasters they rake in a fair old whack from all levels of UK government including even Community Councils. Public Service Broadcasts and Government campaigns and information are paid for and that includes such things a job advertisements.
So factually the BBC’s real paymasters are Westminster and he who pays the Piper continues to call the tunes.
@Robert PeffersL “Oh! Dear! I’d better not say any more or I’ll be getting accused of being abusive — again.”
Absolutely Robert, you’re completely capable of making a very good argument without the need of “pish” (as does the blog owner), so why weaken your case by doing it?
Reminds me of when working in Germany, voices got louder and louder as people tried to win by being loudest. Must admit I loved it, it was hilarious, I joined in with glee.
Anyway, there was this Yank who, when it was getting nowhere, would stand up and go to the board, wait till noise died down, and then gesture at the loudest one and say “You’ve got a very good point there”, and then put his own likely different view forward. Decision made, meeting adjourned.
Here is what happened about one month ago, us People of Scotland.
482 current comments, check out the pictures to see, watch the videos and relook at the pictures again, frae start tae finish:
link to wingsoverscotland.com
The link of the lady above could be yer maw, yer sister, yer wife, yer neighbour, yer friend… how does that make ye feel.. outraged.. ye feeling “better together?” Exactly.
IT COULD BE YOU!
Love Visca.
“The Licence fee money goes to the Treasury and belongs to the Treasury.”
“but it’s main income is from a Westminster Grant that has, just by coincidence, recently been renegotiated”
Robert peffers.
According to BBC’s TV Licensing offical page,Over 90% of the licence fee is spent on BBC TV channels, radio stations, BBC iPlayer and online services.
link to tvlicensing.co.uk
Also Robert, Wiki claims the BBC is a Statutory Corporation. A statutory corporation is a corporate body created by statute.
It typically has no shareholders and its powers are defined by the Act of Parliament which creates it, and may be modified by later legislation.
Such bodies were often created to provide public services.
link to en.m.wikipedia.org
news
trump getting pelters, forces moving against him, this issue will run in the background for a while, until they can get him to resign, jailed etc. it seems to be spilling over into the leave campaign, farage etc.
tories imploding, lots of scandal about abusive mps etc, that will run for a bit, not sure if it will make a significant difference to the parliamentary arithmetic, but this release of info looks like an inside job.
from the few polls i’ve seen, most folk, even in spain, are agreed the catalans should get a referendum. the eu will find it difficult to ignore puigdemont now he has pitch a tent on their lawn. 🙂 If I were him, i would be demanding international observers to protect the catalan voters on the 21st dec election.
when they win again, and rajoy rejects the result again, public opinion across spain and the eu will turn against rajoy, it could well bring down his government.
legal or illegal, region, soveriegn country…… meh.. it is the real politik which counts, i think puigdemont has read the runes correctly.
i think tanks on the lawn at holyrood during indyref2 is very unlikely now. even brexit is struggling to make the news this week 🙂
I think the majority of the people using this site has ever read articles of the Treaty of Union. Nobody in their right mind would ever sign such a treaty nowadays.
It would not have been signed originally but for bribery and corruption of the signatories.
The Scottish people should tell the Scottish Government to rescind the Treaty a Westminster has altered the treaty over 300 years to suit England.
I think the majority of the people using this site has never read articles of the Treaty of Union. Nobody in their right mind would ever sign such a treaty nowadays.
It would not have been signed originally but for bribery and corruption of the signatories.
The Scottish people should tell the Scottish Government to rescind the Treaty a Westminster has altered the treaty over 300 years to suit England.
O/T
link to facebook.com.
Bryant’s no better than the perpetrator, he had information that he didn’t report to the Police at the time as he was part of the establishment, & he’s still doing the same thing, mentioning a member of the royal family , He could name & shame under Parliamentary Privilege fucking bastard looking out for self .
SO…
Smile for that iCatalonian camera, click on 01/10/ref blue link 🙁
“43%” ah heard that number on the radio recently too.
To do with health service, new magic number?
Tis almost the spooky hour of 31…
Aooooow!
Exactly.
54% funded, five days to go!
link to indiegogo.com
Make it count.
Cheers Aye.
Revolution on a Monday night eh…?
Heck, any day will do.
Twisted Sister on “Shortbread Radio”
We’re no gonnae take it…?
Ahhhhhhh ha ha ha..
Listen to yer sister.
That’s funny.
I’ve put on darker trousers so.my dribbly pish stains don’t show. It’s an age thing, I was black affronted!
Anyway, the UN
Article 2
Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter; but this principle shall not prejudice the application of enforcement measures under Chapter Vll
Pretty much the Ladybird Book of the United Nations Sovereignty over other nations militarily or legally, page 1.
The EU
I’ll leave it to someone better qualified than me, to explain which part of EU law Spain is in breach of and where the EU supercedes and has sovereignty over a nation state member. I think that’s been done. I may misremember again, about the EU saying it was an internal matter and didn’t concern the EU directly. Naturally, this does not preclude that there have been breaches of a EU charter or legislation.
It certainly isn’t in keeping with the spirit of the UN charter, that’s for sure. But, well, the UN is pretty clear on how they can interfere in internal politics.
They’ll sort it out though. Well known for sorting out countries in breach of the UN charter. Err, no not really. Or has anyone a concrete example of it?
Or (damn I’d love it to be so) is there a Secret World Star Chamber which upholds all the legislations the other international entities have set if they don’t do it.
For the record, I think it’s been a really shitty thing for Spain to pull and various organisations have been terribly lax in making plain their position. It’s not as if they haven’t had time to assess potential outcomes. This didn’t suddenly spring on them out the blue.
I also have no argument with the idea that Scotland is an internationally recognised country. I haven’t looked specifically where that’s set down in an internationally legal tome, but I’ve been assured it is. If so, nor do I have an argument that it’s an actual fact. Nor do I have a problem with the principle that if Scotland, with a mandate from it’s sovereign people, decides to dissolve a Union and declare itself independent, it has the strongest case for legitimacy. I wish it would happen, I truly do.
Just, hmmm, just there’s at least one entity which does not recognise any of this. On record as saying so quite explicitly.
The UK parliament. But, quite frankly, they can lick my dribbly, pishy trousers.
@ Nana at 6:28pm …..”Video of Mayor of Dublin supporting Catalans.”
I see that someone commented below the video, that “the Mayor is standing on the same spot that our forefathers stood on when giving the Irish Proclamation of Independence from the British.”
Well done Michael McDonncha.
………………………
There’s seemingly over 30 individuals on the Tory sexual harassment list alone now. Just thinking that they must be bricking it in that the victims aren’t poor wee kids that some of them were sexual abusing, traumatised adults now (or better still for them dead), but rather extremely able, articulate adults, male and female. Theresa May was sitting in the Commons looking absolutely (Brexit) exhausted, totally bewildered and perturbed. The latter no doubt because in all her years in office no one as much as ventured near her to slap her on the bum.
And while I’m on the subject they should start investigating the Local Councils. They’d get their eyes opened with what’s been going on / is going on there.
Oops that’s better!
Dedication to the beautiful iPeople of Catalonia ~
Uncut (completely transparent)
link to youtube.com
Let’s keep it REAL, in pictures.
BE OUTRAGED!
REPLAY!
NB: whaddya wanna do with YOUR life…?!
The idea that the Catalan situation is nothing like ours is one that the MSM would like to perpetuate. We self-reference too much because we are obsessed with Independence and seek false parallels wherever we find them, they tell us.
That is what they would have us believe. Catalonia is not a country the way Scotland is – so what, it wants to be. Who decides whether a region is allowed to become a country? Surely it is up to the people who self-identify as different from those that govern them and want to change that? The whataboutery is extended to Shetland and other areas of Scotland – what if they want Independence? Well let them go for it, I say. Who are we to say otherwise?
What cannot be denied, however, is that Imperial powers are the least likely to give up control and their machinery of government is designed to make it as difficult as possible for those wanting to leave. What does this say about those who want to strip away anything that allows independence of thought, culture or government?
O/T Will May, who has presided over the most incompetent UK government ever, be brought down by old-fashioned sleaze? How awfully Tory, although no one can claim immunity here.
“Their democratically-elected government has been dissolved for no other crime than trying to discover the will of its people. Their media is being taken over by the state. Their politicians are being imprisoned under medieval treason laws. The chief of police has been fired. If these things happened in a Third World country it would rightly be regarded as a coup and the UK press would be baying for military intervention.”
In my humble opinion, much worse awaits Scotland in the highly unlikely event that Nicola defies Saint Theresa and holds an “illegal” independence referendum.
Rainy really is channeling Erdogan beautifully. Separated at birth perchance?
Edinburgh University employs a unionist and from espana. Next time he is on — as he has been on the BBC quite a lot recently maybe our biased reporter can ask if he believes Gibralter should remain a colony — UK GB NI or of Spain?
Its a bit embarrassing Spain has an enclave on the
African coast which Morocco wants back.
Who would want to be a colonial power anymore? Spain, England, Russia……
Buena suerte y mantente seguro @Grouse Beater says at 11:00 am
Call me cynical @Petra says at 8:16 pm
“There’s seemingly over 30 individuals on the Tory sexual harassment list alone now.”
Is that enough by-elections to topple Mays Government and stop Brexit?
Funny this Sexual harassment culture has been ongoing and known about for years but only becomes an issue now.
schrodingers cat @ 18:29, 19:36,
Actually, that quote from a member of the Madrid establishment, if true, can already be construed as untoward interference in a forthcoming election with intent to deter and intimidate.
It would be the verbal equivalent of sending in armed intervention as already happened in the referendum. More subtle, but same intent and effect.
One is reminded of Berthold Brecht’s barbed comment on the former East German regime that what it really needed was to dissolve the electorate and elect a new one.
You have to wonder exactly what the Madrid regime are trying to prove. They just can’t seem to suppress their latent Francoist tendencies. A useful if unfortunate reminder of what happens to democracy when far right parties get into power, not least when they are aided and abetted by leftists with high opinions of themselves but who in reality are just other self-serving supporters of the system.
This kind of thing though just isn’t compatible with the standards we, as Europeans, pride ourselves on having and respecting. This isn’t Hungary in 1956 or Czechoslovakia in 1968. Europe does have the power to act, and sooner or later it will have to do so or die of shame and decrepitude.
Governments may be shilly-shallying and hesitant, but we don’t have to be. We should begin a Europe-wide boycott of Spanish produce except for what comes from Catalonia.
Think Catalunya.
Remember:
link to archive.is
link to archive.is
link to archive.is
I wonder if Cairnstoon is working on a Halloween special..?
BRUK Exit is their nightmare.Who Dares Rules.
We used to buy a lot of Spanish produce including wine but no longer. Pity but there you are. You have to stand by your friends.
Anybody have news of the Nth Irish talks today , has Brokenshire made a statement .
RJS 8.56pm..agree Robert which is why me and the missus are taking the caravan down to blanes for 8 weeks in may 2018. I’m having some of that lovely white rioja,now that I’ve reached state pension age.And for all you PSB’s “apologies to yes voters”who will have to work longer because of your Tory pals. I’ll drink a toast to yous PMSL.
Hi Rock at 8:34 pm.
You typed (or generated),
“In my humble opinion, much worse awaits Scotland in the highly unlikely event that Nicola defies Saint Theresa and holds an “illegal” independence referendum.”
That’s three days containing the same paraphrased comment in at least one of your posts. So, I’ll type it again – you’re a bot that needs more input into your database.
And for lurkers:-
The Scottish Government/Parliament can have a referendum, on any subject, whenever it likes. We do NOT require permission from Westminster. We, Scots, are in a union created by the Treaty of Union, 1707 and, if we Scots vote for it, we can remove ourselves from that treaty and, once again, become an independent nation.
No “separatism”, no “seccession”. We just vote to repeal the Act of Union and we astand proud again as a nation.
Or umma wrang?
@Brian Doonthetoon 9.21pm
You are of course correct, and if there were any more percents than a hundred of them you’d be all of those too
As for the dimwit who keeps saying different he has a dimwitted agenda for doing it
Ach weel, my last post disappeared.
Anyway, I thought perhaps a valid fact had been pointed out to me, so I reached for my copy, then went and checked their Charter online, in case it was out of date.
But pretty much no.
UN Charter
Article 2
Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter; but this principle shall not prejudice the application of enforcement measures under Chapter Vll.
(If anyone is interested VII is pretty much dealing with breaches of the peace requiring military intervention)
While all you yoons are working your bollox off and waving your flegs on the 12th, keep an eye out for me on ‘bargain loving brits in the sun ‘ I’ll be the one with the celtic tap. Pmfl
Did the EU not read the Spanish constitution before they accepted Spain into the club?
The Spanish fascists echo the Hinging Judge, Lord Braxfield, who banished the Scottish martyrs to Botany Bay for sedition:
“The British constitution is the most perfect constitution since the world began. It is not possible to improve it.”
Or words to that effect.
They use the same methods as those 18th century Scottish placemen used against Thomas Muir:
From a good historical overview from Kenneth R Johnston of Indiana.
link to euppublishing.com
@ BDTT as you say its ah Bot wie the trotts
@ Ronnie at 7:45pm ……….. “Bryant.”
Thanks for that Ronnie, but bl**dy diabolical.
They’re all coming out of the woodwork now and maybe he’ll be forced to name and shame.
All I know is that some (many?) individuals’ misfortune, which we can’t do anything about now, will prove to be helpful for us in the long run, between people being scunnered with Brexit, paedophile cover-ups and now this.
There was also really good coverage of the Faslane Coke Fiasco shown on STV tonight. No doubt a real eye-opener for some.
“Did ye hear the news the nicht, Tam, nuclear weapons in Scotland?” “Aye, Shug, Englin dumped them oan us.” “When did thiy dae that?” “Yonks ago.” “Bliddy hell, whaur ur thiy, Tam?” “At Faslane.” “Whit jist doon the road fae me in Helensburgh an a didnae knaw?” “Aye and wae yon Trump runnin the UK thir riddy tae go aff anytime noo, Shug.” “God almichty I think all dae a moon licht flit the nicht, Tam. Ah know somebiddy wae a wee but’n ben in the middle o nae whaur at Coulport.”
Apologies for my rotten command of Scots, lol.
Exactly @Brian Doonthetoon says at 9:21 pm
“We just vote to repeal the Act of Union and we astand proud again as a nation.”
Fully agree.
Strange though how the BritNat MSM and BBC never explain why voting for the UK to end the Union with European Union is so Patriotic and the right thing to do yet voting for Scotland to end the Union with England is “divisive separatism”
Fuds the lot of them.
Not sure where 57% comes from. No link to source. There was photos of voters voting multiple times and it is totally unclear on how accurate and above board the count was. Claiming that any certainty can be assigned to this election is bonkers and lacks any credibility. I have no view on the legitimacy of the plebiscite, but to make any arguement about accuracy of the numbers when it took place in utter chaos is daft.
@JWT above..
Exactly.
Scottish independence is more like brexit than Catalonia, and people really need to get that fact clear in their heads.
Brian Doonthetoon,
“We, Scots, are in a union created by the Treaty of Union, 1707 and, if we Scots vote for it, we can remove ourselves from that treaty and, once again, become an independent nation.”
By your own admission, Scotland is not an independent nation.
The Scottish parliament is not “sovereign” as it stands.
Which other nation on earth has a “sovereign” parliament in charge of only a tiny fraction of the nation’s revenues?
Not even Ireland will recognise the result of an “illegal” referendum in Scotland.
Anyway, I can say with 99% confidence that there will be no “illegal” independence referendum in Scotland.
Nicola will not dare defy Saint Theresa when she refuses permission for a referendum before Brexit has been completed.
Can ah just say, it’s waaaaay after the water-shed.
Almost an hour.
FUCK!
Word of the day, DECREPTITUDE.
We’ll done RJS! Describing the near-future EU, IF IT DOESNT MODERNISE IT’S APPLICATION OF IT’S FUNDAMENTAL STANDARDS.
Meaning- the state of being old and in poor condition.
DECTRPTITIDE, INCAPACITATION.
It would be interesting to know if Puigdemont, with the benefit of hindsight, would have done anything differently.
It feels harsh doing it, but I think the global community’s response to Catalonia is an eye opener for us.
I fear there is a world of difference between ourselves as Scottish Independentists who have faith in Scots Law and Constitutional Sovereignty, and the prevailing view of everybody else. I’m not saying we are wrong, but there are some big misconceptions at large which need to be corrected.
It’s very reassuring to talk amongst ourselves about Scotland’s latent Constitutional strength, and confronted by Catalonia’s trials and tribulations, steal ourselves to believe that Scotland will be treated differently.
With our sovereign vote to remain ignored at home and abroad, with Michel Barnier only negotiating with Westminster, with the EU’s antithesis towards secession evidently being more potent than the EU’s antithesis towards Fascist interference with democracy, and with Donald Tusk’s candid admission that despite all that has happened in Catalonia, Spain remains the EU’s sole interlocutor over Catalonian secession, – I would very much like to read the Sovereignty Instruction Manual so that I understand the protocol and process of getting the principle of Scotland’s inalienable Sovereignty properly established and recognised as the ascendant phenomenon.
I fully understand a Section 30 Agreement is not permission to hold a referendum, but agreement that Westminster will respect the result. I confess it still niggles me. Rather than pursue a tepid and subservient Section 30 Agreement, why don’t weinstead cite Scotland’s constitutional sovereignty as the basis and justification for the result being respected?
There will be a referendum 6 weeks after Brexit.
It will be announced 4 weeks before brexit.
Scotland will be independent. The icing on our ancient, naked sovereignty, not much will change at first. Then, hard work.
Yup @geeo says at 9:48 pm
We need to push a
“Scottish exit fae the UK tae escape the clusterf**k that is Brexit”
The more Brexit bites and hits Soft Nos in the pocket the more likely they are to vote Yes.
In the end it always comes down to – if those armed men in body armour and guns come here to take over our parliament can we stop them and do we have the guts to try?
Theres a whole load of smoke and mirrors in between but that IS what it comes down to. The smarter countries (such as the UK) just make damn sure it doesnt get there in the first place as that would cause ugly scenes that would have to be omitted in the news coverage.
International politics is frankly brutal and right and wrong simply does not come into it except at a verbal level. Anyone who has been a clear thinking adult over the last 30 years and not lived under a rock should know it.
Taking a hard stance on independence like what the catalans have done makes them an easy target. The Scots have to keep winning the war of information and ideas incrementally, slowly making Westminster look utterly ridiculous while winning the hearts and minds of the up and coming electorate. Slow pressure, steady gains, bit by bit, do NOT give them leverage though drastic actions.
The Catalans have backed themselves into a bad position through impatience and a lack of foresight and played all their cards in one go, appealing to others to recognise their right to democracy. They are right in principle, but naive in reality.
Add, ‘..or not’ to my above.
Manandboy@ 9.08 pm
Funny you mention that.
I nipped into Aldi for a few things on eve Oct 1st . Passing the tomatoes , as usual grabbed a punnet o the cherry ones & suddenly noticed “Spain” ….. Without a thought, almost as if it was the most natural movement, my arm chucked them back and I took another type , Morroco I think.
Sorry but it’s all the power I have “boycot”
All the pre Ref ’14 ASDA , B&Q etc are becoming quite a list now.
F£ck them , they made a choice , I’ll make mine.
Nice to know from FB etc there are others still feel the same.
Petra @ 9.40 pm
“Godalmichty” …. My church going , WW1 survived , grandfather used the phrase regularly …. Smiley fing
Je Suis Puigdemont.
The first and 21st Century Legend.
2017.
He’s doing it.
RIGHT NOW!
What many love about this site is that Rev Stu will openly admit when he doesn’t have a strong opinion about a specific topic or doesn’t know much about it.
But then, as above, he makes the effort to go and find out.
Contrast that approach with the ‘experts’ packing-out BBC/Sky and RT green rooms, desperate to get their appearance money for delivering sage opinions on the situation in Catalonia when they don’t necessarily know anything more about it than someone who bothers to turn on the news.
When you consider that we, in Scotland, were subjected to precisely the same delivery process (involving a lot of the same midwives) when our nation’s future was at stake, the current goings-on *should* ring alarm bells with a lot of those who voted ‘No’. Here’s hoping we see some evidence of that, and soon.
Hi Rockbot at 9:49 pm.
You generated,
“By your own admission, Scotland is not an independent nation.
The Scottish parliament is not “sovereign” as it stands.”
1. I NEVER claimed that, currently, Scotland is an independent nation.
2. I never claimed the the Scottish Parliament was “sovereign”.
You just aren’t able to accept that THE SCOTS, ie, the people who make up our Scottish society, are SOVEREIGN. Westminster tries to obfuscate but that is the fact. If a majority of us vote for an outcome, it WILL happen.
Your program then regenerated, for the FOURTH time in the last three days,
“Anyway, I can say with 99% confidence that there will be no “illegal” independence referendum in Scotland.
Nicola will not dare defy Saint Theresa when she refuses permission for a referendum before Brexit has been completed.”
Rockbot – give up. You’ve been sussed, as I pointed out on the “telling-the-truth-by-accident” page.
We are all laughing at you now. You’re our village idiot.
Ian Brotherhood is 100% correct about our media.
Perfect point is the Daily Record article by Creepy Clegg.
Talks about Female MSP’s and staff naming 3 MSP’s as sex pests, yet abjectly fails to name them, except to call it “an open secret” at Holyrood.
He goes on to say the following….
…….
“The Record contacted Scotland’s main political parties to ask if any incidents are being investigated at Holyrood
Labour said no allegations had been formally reported. But the party’s former Scottish leader Kezia Dugdale raised concerns in her Record column earlier this month.
She wrote: “There’s a Harvey Weinstein in every workplace. Whether that’s a supermarket, a factory floor, an office block or a national parliament, there’s always one and often many more. We all know who they are.”
The Tories and Lib Dems said no allegations had been made to them”
…………..
No mention of if the SNP responded or not, a cynic might think that is supposed to imply by omission that the 3 sex pests are SNP MSP’s.
Surely the record could have simply reported the SNP response to the question asked of all parties ?
To report nothing, could be to try suggests to the casual reader that the SNP have ‘something to hide’.
Now, I am sure the DR and Clegg would never dare suggest that is the case, being paragons of journalistic integrity as they are…(and YES, that WAS sarcasm).
When a country beats the crap out of its own citizens. That country deserves to be spat on by civil society. I believe in Catalan independence because Spain is a rogue pseudo democratic nation.
Seems that absolute power still corrupts absolutely.
News: Puigdemont, his Depute and a number of other politicians are to be charged with rebellion, sedition and misuse of funds.
………………………………
A terrible fire being reported at a large Welsh farm house. Seemingly a number of people are missing, presumed dead, including children.
……………………………………
You’ve got to laugh at Harriet Harman chuntering on in the Commons about sexual harassment, not putting up with sleaze and so on. Harman and her husband who had close links with the Paedophile Information Exchange (PIE)! A full investigation should be carried out into that and she should be kicked out along with the other perverts.
…………………………………….
Jackie Bird revelling in announcing that the SNP have received two complaints of sexual harassment.
…………………………………………….
Protest in Wick against NHS Highland cuts. Some people are demanding that the SG … SNP take over.
…………………………………….
Ha, ha, ha! Jackie Kim Ono Bird just reporting that the McMillan Cancer Charity are setting up an online site / nurse to counter “online fake news” in relation to cancer. The SNP should think about setting up an online site to counter fake news from Jackie Bird and colleagues. I hope she realises that her days are well and truly numbered.
Unpleasant Facts:
1. There is no majority in Catalonia for independence. The immediate past referendum, being constitutionally illegal, will not have attracted the votes of many of those who regard it as invalid, a nullity. It is not only a constitutional nullity, but a political one.
2. Absent a constitutionally legal referendum, the Catalan separatists must either knuckle under and return to the constitution, or put their money where their mouth is and enact a revolution (UDI) by actually declaring independence and suffering the consequences and reaping the supposed advantages. At the moment they are trying to have their cake, but not eat it, to derive all the benefits of a legal success, without going so far as metaphorical ejaculation.
3. UDI would entail immediately leaving the EU and the formal structures of the Euro (though nothing would prevent the use of the Euro for all practical purposes), and economic turmoil that the strongest economy could not survive without severe damage, economic, social and political.
4. Nationhood is about pooling resources and risks. The Catalan splittists do not want to contribute to the support of their other Hispanic partners, who happen to be historically poorer and less developed than they: so the Central Belt of Scotland should dump the rest, because they cost, and they are historically, economically and culturally different? Edinburgh should abandon Gorgie, becuase it is a net liability? Morningside should secede because it does not want to find social improvement for poorere areas? A country is a family, where members ought to share benefits and costs, just as Scotland seeks to do internally, the UK more widely, and the EU with regional and development funding more widely still. There must always be net contributors and net receivers, though these will change with time.
5. The Spanish constitution is rigid by design. The dreadful civil war that delayed the country’s development by thirty years and cost untold lives and human happiness was furthered by the fissipariousness of Spanish politics in the 1930’s. Making splits easy is a recipe for civil war, whether hot or cold.
6. The rule of law does not allow for revolution. You either obey the rules, as we did in Scotland at the independence referendum, or you don’t. If you do not like the result the rules produce but still press on to your goal (which the Catalans have not so far had the balls to do, one suspects because the potential rebels know they do not have real popular support) then, however much you might spout off about National Sovereignty and self-determination, you have a revolution.
7. The splittists are looking for a 1916 moment, for troops firing on the crowds, some ghastly mistake by Madrid, that will divert the current of public opinion in their favour. Their best, only, bet is to provoke a misguided reaction from the centre. This is a cynical and almost criminal course of action.
8. Catalonia is by no measure unfairly treated within Spain. They have a high degree of autonomy, and high status for their language an culture – which has in great degree served to divorce Catalonia from the wider Spanish community by making “Spanish” voices alien, therefore not “heard”.
Ha! A Welsh language blogger, Glyn Adda, after imagining the Catalan situation transposed to Cymru (amusing but also chilling), goes on to suggest that the Catalan PM’s flight to Belgium may not be such a bad idea after all, since governments in exile can acquire considerable status when they represent clearly oppressed people. However it’s his conclusion that I have to echo here.
He writes : “It would be a good idea for Scotland to offer a home to the Catalan government in exile. It would raise the status of Scotland in the world and give rise to enormous embarrassment to the UK [government]. How about it, Nicola?” 🙂
Original here, I’m not making this up! :
link to glynadda.wordpress.com
#jesuisp
Lymphad (10.55pm) says…”…..”
And another pish dribbler is born…!
Lymphad – thanks for word fissiparous, a new one on me. Interesting post
On Wings…
There is no watershed.
🙂
lymphad at 10.55
Goodness. A new voice talking the same old shite.
The Catalan nationalists have made it absolutely clear that they will countenance no violence (unlike the government in Madrid).
However ….here comes the two questions again.
(Q) Do the people of Catalonia under the terms of the United Nations Charter and by any measure of acceptable democracy have the right to a vote to decide how and by whom they are governed?
A) Yes
Q) If there is no majority for independence in Catalonia why is Spain and Rajoy refusing it a referendum
A) because they know there is a substantial majority for independence.
As I said we had a report from Catalonia from three people who had been there for some time. These are politically very experienced people.They have absolutely no doubt that there is a substantial majoity for independence there.
The fact that the Spanish Government is providing free transport from all across Spain for folk to go and demonstrate in Barcelona tells us all we need to know.
The fact that our media is not reporting this tells us what we already know.
This clumsy stuff from Spain will maybe deceive some folk across Europe but wont deceive the people of Catalonia so I don’t know the reason for it.
lymphad’s post is virtually all irrelevancies and perhaps he or she thinks we are all idiots. The only important question is the first one above
Perhaps this is a good time to remind our less intelligent posters (ye know who ye are) that EVERY SINGLE ONE of these Seperatists/Splitters/Splittists/Revolutionaries, and so on..are DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED members of a FULLY FUNCTIONAL AND LEGAL Catalonian Parliament, and have been for a long time.
If you are a country, lets say..SPAIN, and you are a signatory to international charters/laws/treaties etc, like say…the EU or the U.N, and maybe international courts etc..that automatically means it is YOU that are on the wrong side of legality by having a constitution which EXPRESSLY DENIES your citizens the LEGAL and internationally recognised right to, lets say.. self determination.
So, rather than dribble pish down your chin, trying to support a Country/government which is trying to breach charters/laws etc which they are signatories to, try to understand the issue better before making an utter cheesy cod-piece of yourself.
Oh aye..by the way, there WAS a referendum on independence in Catalonia, the result was 90% IN FAVOUR.
90% is 40% MORE than required to win a plebiscite.
Didnt vote in the referendum ?
Tough shit, you made that choice, and left it to others to decide for you.
Boycotted the vote ?
Tough shit, you made that choice, and left it to others to decide for you.
90% Yes = legitimate result in favour.
That is an electoral FACT and reality.
@ K. A. Mylchreest at 10:58pm ………..”How about it Nicola?”
I think someone will have to remind Glyn Adda that Nicola doesn’t have control over immigration and that Westminster would no doubt, unIke Belgium, order them to be arrested and extradited to Madrid. And with their penchant for living in the glorious past maybe even give them a wee spell in the Tower of London, a stretch on the rack, some nail pulling, branding or even being hung, drawn and quartered.
So no, bad idea KAM, imo, lol.
Lymphad @ 10.55
Then if it is as you assert… That Catalonia is fairly treated by Spain!
Why do ye think Madrid didn’t facilitate a referendum in the first place then ?
I know that the Constitution forbids it….but its surely not beyond the wit of Spain to have the constitution serve the people and not demand the people are to serve the constitution?
Now the situation also demands that those responsible for the violence face justice,the most unpleasant fact of all don’t ye think?
Let’s call that unpleasant fact 9 & 10 because there are those who ordered it and those who did it!
And those two in particular I could get behind…. What say you Lymphad?
K.A.Mylchreest
TBF the UK has previous in refusing to extradite political leaders to Spain. i.e. that nice man Pinochet.
Yes!
LOVE IT!!!
The Scottish independence movement should keep the Catalan issue at arms length.
It’s a receipe for disaster.
a) They still want to keep the Euro. So there is not point in it at all.
b) It’s divided everybody and if we did the same then more people would vote Tory in large numbers, just like the last election. There would be riots and we would be in a minority.
Our efforts should be focused on winning independence the correct way.
1) Getting our own currency and central bank.
2) Introducing A Job Guarentee.
Some Macro Effects of a Job Guarantee
link to heteconomist.com
The comments section on the link are excellent !
Almost there us international adventurers:
link to indiegogo.com
For Catalonia.
To.
@Lymphad –
Welcome!
You’ve already had some disagree with you, but hey, at least yours is a fresh voice and you take the trouble to lay your points out in an orderly manner so that it’s easy for critics to respond.
I wish you well, for what remains of your short visit.
😉
Yer maw dancin’ xx.
Visca Catalunya xx.
SO…
Are you a warlock or a witch?
Trick or treat.
@yesindyref2 says: 30 October, 2017 at 6:57 pm:
“Absolutely Robert, you’re completely capable of making a very good argument without the need of “pish” (as does the blog owner), so why weaken your case by doing it?”
Hilarious! Indyref2, the expression was good enough for the English Bard – one of the few English elite that I do see as a real great.
Even if his grasp of Scottish history was abysmal it was, after all, fiction he wrote.
Just to prove my point I quote you from the on-line dictionary:-
Pish – exclamation
dated, (note it is dated – but so am I).
exclamation: pish:=
used to express annoyance, impatience, or disgust.
It is as used by me – perfectly good English Language.
Which beggars the question – What did you imagine it was?
I did, in fact. then explain why I found the comment an annoyance, made me impatient, but only a tiny bit disgusted.
If you must pick faults then consider this. I replied to a person who classed the two cases he commented upon as being, “similar”, but that similarity is not identical in every way and there are in fact enough such legal differences to make the two cases quite different.
The United Kingdom is legally a bipartite, equally sovereign, partnership of two kingdom that, through marriage and inheritance, share a common monarch who has a quite different legal standing in the two kingdoms.
Tell me, Indyref2 – how many Spanish autonomous regions there are?
Further, were they equally sovereign partners when they became parts of Spain under one monarch?
Here is a wee cut & paste:-
Note the date of that, “Constitutional Monarchy”. It was a political set-up intended to artificially draw the many autonomous regions that the Spanish Empire had forced together. Note also that Franco died in 1975. Spain today is still struggling to come to terms with itself within its many autonomous regions.
One obvious thing that is similar to the UK situation is how the present government of Spain have used propaganda and this can be seen in the bussing in of people from outwith Catalonia to demonstrate in the Catalonian capital and the very much Franco like violence used by the Spanish Government against a remarkably peaceful independence movement that in all my days I have never witnessed the likes of. How the Catalans refrained from armed resistance is way beyond my ken. Think if that happened when that kind of force was used in Southern Ireland.
The Catalans must be much admired for their restraint. Especially when we see the use being made of home-made bombs, airliners, small arms, knives and road vehicles by, “terrorists”, elsewhere.
It was said long ago that, “One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter”. Fact is that if you oppress a people hard enough they will be ready to die to be free. Pity we cannot ask William Wallace about that, is it not?
I believe that a press conference in Belgium with Puigdemont is on the cards for tomorrow (ie. today, strictly speaking).
I can imagine a country like Belgium offering him and others political asylum. Maybe it’s all part of a pre-arranged understanding, but anyway it might look a lot better for Europe and the rest of the world if there aren’t any high-profile show trials being run by the Madrid regime.
Bad idea to have a host of very public political martyrs, even if Rajoy and Co. in their arrogance and fear reaction are positively itching to make examples.
Howz yer maw?
Love her.
Awwwe Rajoy… what are we going to do to you?
Rafterall.. Spain will still be Spain.
Catalonia will just be.
No swearies oui.
The link provides the position of the Spanish government with regard to Gibraltar.
link to exteriores.gob.es
Spain is very strict about what the Treaty of Utrecht ceded to the Kingdom of Great Britain.
The Treaty of Utrecht includes Article XIII, which was all about Catalonia..
link to en.m.wikisource.org
It is very clear what Spain agreed too, with regard to Catalonia.
If Catalonia is dissolved, ie has their devolved parliament completly removed with no objection from the rEU, or indeed the rWorld, we are all up s**t creek basically.
RJS
You have to wonder exactly what the Madrid regime are trying to prove. They just can’t seem to suppress their latent Francoist tendencies.
—————-
i think this is the nub here.
rajoy isnt spain, he represents the farright, pr has propelled him into power but he isnt the majority, public opinion and real politik will bury him
the alt right is suffering a backlask across the world, trump is in retreat, so is brexit. rajoy is about to find himself on the wrong side of the battle
visca catalunya
I’ve been avoiding making any comment on this very delicate situation since UDI was declared.
In my view though the declaration of UDI after what we witnessed taking place on the 1st October during the referendum and the result after made it unavoidable.
I know now that that most most important members of the Catalan government including Puigdemont have sought refuge in Belgium and that is certainly the most important thing they could have done.
It’s not running away, they could no longer fight for Independence from a prison in Madrid. They have brought their fight right into the heart of Europe and where the European parliament sir every day.
I do not expect major trouble now in Catalonia other than on a small scale. This has been engineered I’m sure, now the talks will begin.
Excellent, “Scotland’s Choice” with 69% now has 100 backers.
Many best wishes to the iCitizens of Catalonia.
5 days remaining to go.
Should do it.
iCatalovely forever…
(they gained their right by default, via their passive assault)
Incidentally, is yer maw dancin’?
Glasgow… banter like.
Cheers.
~
~
Test…
Back to post:
artyhetty says:
31 October, 2017 at 1:03 am
If Catalonia is dissolved, ie has their devolved parliament completly removed with no objection from the rEU, or indeed the rWorld, we are all up s**t creek basically.
I know where you’re coming from Artyhetty, but I see it differently.
The fulcrum which Catalonia’s referendum has tipped upon, has been the issue of Constitutional Law. It doesn’t matter whether that law is vexatious and repressive. It doesn’t matter whether that law is thuggishly implemented. It doesn’t matter that the Catalonian Independentists can have their democracy thwarted, and their administrations dismantled. However egregious the Spanish Constitution might be, and however cack handedly it has been enforced by the Spanish, the rule of Law was still adequate in its legitimacy for the Catalan referendum to be deemed unlawful. Once thus decreed unlawful, Catalonia’s Independence becomes a thing nobody can embrace.
Spanish Sovereignty 1 – Catalonian Democracy 0. Final Score.
Every one of us, including those who whine about me banging on about Sovereignty being mishandled because it’s boring and repetitive, needs to open our eyes and recognise that democracy is dead in the water unless backed by sovereign legitimacy.
We MUST make certain that Scotland’s next Independence Referendum is conducted under the jurisdiction of Scottish Sovereignty, and with the legitimacy of that sovereignty hammered home at every opportunity until it is internationally recognised.
There is nothing absent, unresolved or illegitimate about our Sovereignty. It stood robust, recognised and unchallenged for centuries, and while it may have been blunted and caged by the perfidious guile of the Union, it was never destroyed nor revoked. The battleground will not be the definition of our sovereign integrity, the fight will face will be for sovereign recognition. That is the prize which Westminster currently holds, but which we must seize from them, and seize before the next ballot is held – unless we desire to meet the same depressing fate as Catalonia.
We need to turn the tables and, forgive me, “do a Catalonia ” on the Act of Union. We must make the International Community aware that while it might be excused for recognising Westminster’s Parliamentary Sovereignty, the precise definition of the law actually vindicates Scottish Sovereignty above the unlawful usurpation of that sovereignty by Westminster. At present, the International Community recognises the Pretender, not the true legitimate sovereign heir to power in Scotland.
We also need to “do a BBC” on Brexit. We should take every opportunity to use the Unionist media’s “power words” against them, and brand the UK’s Brexiteers “secessionists, separatists, and splitters” with the same venomous alacrity as the BBC propagandists smear both us, and the Catalonians. The UK’s insular, bigoted, xenophobic retreat from Europe into its grossly deluded nostalgia is the very definition of secession, and the very worst type of secession, that of malevolent intent which wilfully sought to damage the EU and cause it’s greater fragmentation and collapse.
We aren’t up s—t creek Artyhetty, but we have work that needs to be done, brains which need to function, decisions which need to be made, and an exquisite, robust, and all conquering exposé of Scottish Popular Sovereignty launched upon the International Community and married to an unrelenting demand for an end to the misappropriated recognition enjoyed by Westminster.
Please, let us learn from Catalonia’s pain, that democracy is a false champion that is easily unhorsed. Put our faith in Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty, democracy’s grim and colourless big brother.
@ Breeks at 5:54am …….
Breeks any chance of outlining in practical terms what we (Nicola etc?) should do exactly to “seize our Sovereignty (or Sovereign recognition) back from Westminster before the next ballot is held?”
I’m not being facetious when I say that it would help if you would list what should be done as 1), 2), 3) etc. Thanks.
Puigdemont did not have the numbers. He knew. Or should have done. All Spanish politicians are questionable. Despised by the people. Although they do put them in jail in Spain. Along with the bankers, lawyers etc, Royalty are charged. Associates convicted. People lost their savings and pensions.in the banking crisis. In the housing pozzi schemes. They were not compensated. Although there is growth.in the EU/Eurozone. Some genuine recovery.
The situation is quite different in Scotland. Always has been. Ignorant people keep on comparing them as similar. They are not. They are not doing Scottish Independence movement any favours by the constant ill conceived comparison, without qualification.
Support for Scottish Independence is higher. 50%+ Westminster unionists are a bunch of criminals. They break the Law with impunity. The Law is not enforced. Now more sleaze. Lawyers touting for business let Westminster off the hook by inane comparisons with Holyrood. The Tories will be gone before long. They could be voted out.The catastrophic mess they are making is an outrage. Must of them should be in jail. Cheat and liars. Breaking the Law. Labour etc are as bad. Mann collecting data? He supports abuse, maiming and killing people. Hypocrite.
The unionists are a bunch of cheating liars. Majority white middle class male politicians. No diversity. Tories etc. 3rd rate rejects. Mucking up the electoral system.. Breaking electoral Laws on donations/ spending leaflets etc. At every opportunity. The Police are not enforcing the Law and charging and convicting these criminals. They have privileges above the Law.
Brexit is a disaster. The Tories will end up paying more for less. More money for less rights and no decisions making. It is the Tory way. Try and claim it as a victory. The sycophant Press. A waste of time, space and money. If they are not ousted soon. Very possible. Everywhere is chaos. They are starving vulnerable people. Killing and maiming people worldwide. Despicable. Causing the worst
migration crisis in Europe since 11WW. Suffering and hardship for people. Causing mental health issues.
“You cannot build an authentic democracy on forgetting”
The above is a quote from one of the many documentaries shown in Spain that seek to reeducate a miseducated Spanish population (especialy the young) about Franco.
Why boycot Spain and Spanish goods? Not all of Spain agrees with Rajoy. He and his party a?e a minority. There are millions of Spanish who were and are very much against fascisim.
Here in Extremadura especially Franco and his army killed many women and children. I know many Spanish who were around during Franco’s time and and talk of a very bad time in their lives.
link to en.m.wikipedia.org
Men and boys were killed as they worked the land. Women and children rounded up and slaughtered in the bull ring in Badajoz
link to en.m.wikipedia.org
Yes boycotting Spain and all thing Spanish may help you think that you are doing something to support the people of Catalan, but you may well be punishing Spanish people who also support Catalan?
Also how can you be sure that when you buy something from Catalan it was produced by an independence supporting Catalan? Or indeed does not come from another part of Spain first?
Just saying….
They are holding elections in December. If people want Independence in Catalonia. They can vote for the Parties supporting it. Not imposing it on them. Maybe there will be a higher turnout. Than 30/40%. Either no support or apathy. The Spanish Gov want to reinstate autonomy. They will not want to imposed direct rule. It is too much trouble. Not worth the effort. They are so laid back they will fall over. Manana. There could do with some increased regulation. Especially the antiquated Law.. Unbelievable. The rights of resident EU citizens/’foreigner’, fleeced no comeback under the Law, 700,000? not allowed to vote. No taxation without representation. There could still be negotiated changes. The Spanish Courts decided Catalonia do not have to hand over the disputed £4Billion. A Federal system of Provinces. With nearly full sutonomus rights which could be increased.
Links
link to news.gov.scot
link to thecommongreen.scot
link to scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk
link to rbs.postach.io
BBC News: Aamer Anwar announced last week that a number of individuals had contacted him over the last few years about being sexually harassed, assaulted, and so on, at Holyrood. This he said involved ALL political parties. Two people have seemingly reported SNP politicians / staff and an urgent meeting is being held this morning at Holyrood to discuss this. What I’d like to know is what’s being done about the other complaints or have they just disappeared into the ether now?
……………………………
Air pollution is worse in Glasgow than London. Worst in the UK in fact as per their map. Oh and, eh, although the expert mentioned that there are steps that the Government can take to deal with this, they omitted to say that Nicola Sturgeon announced plans recently to do just that. I’m also wondering too if the data is correct. Glasgow worse than London? Is this overall or street by street?
…………………………..
A gambling review is being carried out in England and Wales. With a population of over 50 million the one and only addictive gambler interviewed was a Scot. Well a guy with his face blanked out and using an actors voice over. You couldnae make it up.
………………………………
The Bank of England is warning that 75,000 jobs in the financial service sector could be lost if Brexit negotiations fail, but it’s not a problem as there are 1 million financial sector jobs across the UK. No a problem unless you happen to be one of the 75,000 losing your job or if a large percentage relate to Scotland.
………………………………
The only person who’s being mentioned this morning in relation to sexual harassment at Westminster is Fallon. He seemingly has admitted to putting his hand on a female reporters knee 15 years ago. She hadn’t reported him to why bring this up? Hartley the reporter says that she doesn’t want to get involved in what’s clearly now a Westminster witch hunt. Make what you will of it.
…………………………….
Theresa May’s pal Trump looks as though his future as US President is on a shoogly peg, just like hers. They can comfort each other by holding hands as they traipse down to the broo together.
link to theconversation.com
link to anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk
link to totalpolitics.com
A charity run by prominent Brexit donor Arron Banks has been under investigation by the Charity Commission
link to archive.is
link to facebook.com
Get your cheesiest cringiest cheddar here
link to twitter.com
If Lewis Hamilton wants to strike a patriotic pose, he should look at where he pays his tax
link to archive.is
link to taxresearch.org.uk
Revealed: Ukip whistleblowers raised fears about Breitbart influence on Brexit
link to archive.is
One the key revelations of the last few weeks has been paid advertising on social media platforms by Russia.
link to byline.com
link to waitingfortax.com
link to infacts.org
More and more Scottish products branded with union flag
link to twitter.com
Check out the hashtag
link to twitter.com
George Papadopoulos cuts plea deal against Donald Trump and exposes criminal Trump-Russia collusion
link to palmerreport.com
Manafort’s ‘lavish lifestyle’ laundered illicit cash through property loans – and Airbnb
link to archive.is
A memo to EU leaders- there is no democracy without human rights, no human rights without democracy;
‘Independent of but concurrent with the electoral shocks, the gathering political disaster in Catalonia threatens a still harsher blow to the EU’s prestige. The single most important goal for European unity going back to its origins in the Coal and Steel Community has been peace among and within the countries of the continent. By imposing central government rule over Catalonia, the right-wing Rajoy government threatens to provoke the civil strife that contradicts the EU’s spirit if not its legal framework…
In late 2016 and into 2017 the future of the Rajoy government hung by a thread, a minority government rendered unpopular by its ideologically motivated implementation of unnecessary austerity policies. Two general elections in 2016 failed to dislodge or strengthen his government.
It remained unstable even after a coalition with the centre-right Ciudadanos Party was formed It survived only because the Socialist Party (PSOE) abstained in the parliamentary vote of confidence, an abstention motivated in part by anxieties that yet another election might strengthen its rival to the left, Podemos. Though rivals in mainstream Spain politics, Rajoy’s PP and PSOE shared an important characteristic. Neither had strong electoral support in the Catalonian 2015 regional election with the PP receiving 8.5 percent and PSOE 13 percent (and two-thirds going to regional parties).
With the sole exception of the Prime Minister of Belgium (who knows a bit about conflicts over regional autonomy), EU leaders have endorsed or assiduously ignored the emerging disaster in Spain. How is it possible that the leaders of a Union designed to bring peace and cooperation to Europe would make no attempt to mediate an unfolding disaster within one of its largest member states?’
link to socialeurope.eu
Global leaders who demonstrate global leadership skills making a difference -political military co-operation, economic environmental collaboration, respect for human rights;
link to history.state.gov
Back to being enthralled with wars and conflict, power struggles, weak leadership-4 years later another round of ideological, military, political confrontation via proxy conflicts in Middle East, Angola, Chile until 89-90 and the end of the cold war.
An old tradition- an Imperialist legacy- toxic for generations to come- ongoing political, military, ideological confrontation via proxy conflicts
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes%E2%80%93Picot_Agreement
And the victims?
link to iraq.savethechildren.net
link to warchild.org.uk
link to unicef.org.uk
link to unrwa.org
link to ksc-kcf.org
link to savethechildren.org
I posted this comment elsewhere, but I think it’ll fit in just fine with the topic-
I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that had there been anything like a truly representative or balanced media in Scotland, we’d be an independent nation state today. We’d be looking at the train wreck of Brexit and austerity UK from a safe distance and getting on with repairing the damage of decades worth of epic governmental failure and corruption.
I very much doubt that any political party on their own has the expertise or reach to get their message into every home and affect the opinion of a nation. It takes media saturation to achieve the desired outcome and when you have a media reading from the same page, all with (spookily) the same bill of goods to sell, the outcome of any argument becomes that much more certain. It makes the task of those not adhering to the orthodoxy that much more difficult. It is with no small amount of credit that the YES campaign came as close as it did to overturning both the state message and the state messenger.
What it will take to overcome the mainstream media effect is a complete failure and breakdown of trust between them and the public. What it will take is the utter failure of the message they sold to the public and what it will take is for the suffering and betrayal resulting from their efforts to reach into every livingroom in Scotland. That the evidence is so overwhelming, only the most die hard believer will be willing to overlook those effects. Sadly, there WILL always be such a demographic and no amount of empirical evidence or the hardship of others will shift their worldview.
No one could ever take on a motivated media (and boy do they have a motivation), united behind a single message. This is a corporately and politically motivated power base which can build or destroy careers, raise or level governments. Even in its weakened state, it is a monster with a financial reach worth billions and a saturation which reaches tens of millions across the UK and beyond. No government, no party, has the reach or power to take such an entity head on. Only the public themselves have the power required to break the media’s hold on their lives.
Think world financial crash. All it took to break the banks in 2008 was for someone to say ‘I don’t believe you’ and great financial houses fell like dominoes. That is how you beat the media. One person says quite simply ‘I don’t believe you anymore’, then another, then another.
You break the mainstream media by turning away from it and creating your own, and by investing in those whose word, professionalism and ethics have proven trustworthy. It won’t happen overnight (who knew), but it can and will happen. The process has already started. (ends)
Mornin’ Nana 🙂
Right on time.
Fallon’s knee touching episode is a distraction.
From 2016
link to tompride.wordpress.com
DEXEU finally releases the list of 58 industry sectors for which it has done unpublished Brexit impact studies:
58 sectors cover 88% of the economy, says Government…
link to parliament.uk
Good morning Macart
Franco dead for 41 years. To describe the Spanish Gov as fascist is an insult to all Spanish people who elected them. The Spanish Civil War was in the 1930’s. The world recession. Spain was 50/50 support. Republican/Church – Nationalist/communist. Still is 50/50? Left/right, conservative. Family/Church/State. Traditional.Predominately Catholic. Although ties are weakening. Separation of Church and State supported by the King as head of State. Royals still have support of the people? Hello. Popular support. Although misbehaving?
Spain stayed out of the 1/11WW. Helped the economy? 120,000 Nationalist/communist died. 80,000 Republican/church (Facist) Spanish Civil War. Brutality on both sides. Franco/German air power. Franco hired planes from Germany. Hitler could not stand Franco. Franco has visions of reclaiming lost Spanish territories. Not shared by Hitler. Spain stayed out of the 11WW.
Would Spain had fared any better if the Nationalist/communists had won? Brought democracy? Many Communist regimes lead to stagnation/corruption for various reasons. Not one person – one vote. Or universal Suffrage. Spain became a Democracy in 1978 and has done better ever since. A new Constitution. Better governance. More equal. Still poorer rural areas.
A healthy lifestyle. Sunshine, good food and healthy lifestyle. Extra/Fiesta Holidays.
@Petra
Just a starter for 10….
1) Formally petition the EU to recognise Scotland’s probationary Sovereignty.
2) Formally petition the EU to shadow Michel Barnier’s Brexit negotiations where Westminster is their only interlocutor with parallel negotiations, with a separate EU appointed negotiator for Scotland and Holyrood as formal interlocutors.
3) Formally contest the recognition of UK Parliamentary Sovereignty before the European Court of Justice and the UN.
Subject to the EU / UN going some way, any way, towards recognising even some limited form of probationary Scottish Sovereignty…
4) Use that recognition to stimulate constitutional summits to be held between the EU and Holyrood to formalise the process of EU membership, whether continuance, or re-application. Hold convergence and membership negotiations as detailed and binding as those Michel Barnier is struggling to achieve with UK divergence. If Scotland must re-apply, re-apply now and let the process of Scotland’s rejoining run concurrently with rUK’s exit, so that Scotland’s EU membership suffers no break in continuity.
5) Neither Articles 48 nor 49 of the Lisbon Treaty are equal to the unprecedented circumstances which Scotland finds itself in. Scotland should be lobbying the EU for a new precedent ruling on Scotland’s current Membership, and the absence of any mechanism whereby EU citizenship can be removed from EU citizens contrary to their democratically expressed desire to keep it.
6) Have Scotland formally recognise the EU’s systemic aversion to secession in principle, but formally appeal for a dispensation in such attitudes towards Scotland, given that Scotland’s “secession” from the UK is a benign and constitutionally lawful consequence of the UK’s malignant secession from Europe.
7) Seek a formal edict from the EU that both Scotland’s probationary Sovereignty (*probationary pending democratic ratification), Scotland’s actual Sovereignty by legal definition, and Scotland’s capacity to act as an international interlocutor are circumstances which the EU is formally prepared to recognise now. If not, then what do we need to do to qualify for recognition.
8) Holyrood takes the initiative to hold talks with the EU to prepare a formal contingency plan for Scotland to escape Brexit. Not wishy-washy wait and see procrastination, but concrete initiative citing the subjugation of Scotland’s Remain Vote as a Constitutional affront which cannot be tolerated. What would Scotland’s contribution be? How many MEP’s? What agreements would need renegotiated? .. the whole dossier resolved.
9) Even if the EU cannot in good faith formally recognise Scotland’s probationary Sovereignty, then let the EU at the very least recognise that UK Parliamentary Sovereignty is ambiguous and disputed, and see the EU formally task Westminster with addressing that dispute to satisfactory conclusion before Brexit negotiations can continue or be formally concluded.
10) Before Scotland goes to the polls to vote, have made concrete and widely known the benchmarks for currency, Constitution, and strategic defence, (note strategic defence, not the number of ships we’ll have), have the terms and path towards EU membership fully resolved, not merely as heresay or conjecture, but a path and process formally acknowledged and agreed with Europe.
*Probationary Sovereignty might be a red herring. It’s said in the context that Sovereignty is inevitable, but pending democratic ratification. However, it is my personal conviction that recognition for the legitimacy of Sovereignty is a legal distinction of constitutional legislation, with no democratic input relevant or required.
That’s just 10 before breakfast Petra. I haven’t even mentioned the media or YES campaign.
@Nana
Good catch on that piece from the Conversation. It pretty much nails the issue and yes, more than one nation out there has shown more than just a hint of hypocrisy on the Catalan situation.
Supporting a people’s right to self determination under international law and support of Article 1 of the UN charter isn’t a serving suggestion. You’re either signed up to the principle or you’re not. You either believe in the principle or you don’t.
If the answer is negative in both instances, you’d think some folk have no right to be either a signatory or a UN member (shrugs). Mind you, hypocrisy has never been in short supply in the affairs of nations. Governments tend to do what is expedient or serves their own advantage rather more than doing what is difficult or right.
And btw, why wasn’t all this fretting and outrage about sexual harassment brought to the surface when a Scottish MP Tasmina-Ahmed Sheikh was “barked at” by Nicolas Soames right there in the house and in the middle of a Parliamentary session?
Ah yes, Soames apologised for his misogyny, so that’s alright then….
The Spanish state now regards all expressions of Catalan culture as dangerously separatist.
Under Franco a Castilianization of the peninsula was official policy, that policy appears set for a restoration from Madrid.
We ought to be concerned that the EU has seemingly, albeit tacitly, given this the stamp of approval in the interests of ‘unity’. Remember EU watched the breakup of Yougloslavia with equanimity, indeed Germany was rather encouraging; autres temps, autres moeurs indeed.
Being sceptical of there ever being a second referendum in Scotland without a major face off with London, which few seem to have the stomach for, the increased Britishization ie anglicisation of our country in the cause of ‘national unity’ can be expected.
Puigdemont has handled the situation badly. He should have gone to Madrid. Let the agents of the Spanish state arrest him in full view of the world’s media. Skulking in Brussels he is a pathetic irrelevance. .
‘Reckless bankers should face jail’. Along with reckless politicians who let them get away with it. Fiddling Libor rates. Lie, cheat, kill and maim millions of vulnerable people. £Trns in debt. Ruining the world economy. Westminster unionist politicians,
@ K. A. Mylchreest at 10:58pm
Glyn Adda is a retired universirty lecturer, a well-respected academic and campaigner for Welsh independence of many decades experience in both fields and a good friend of mine. I’m sure that his comments are only half tongue in cheek and that he also advocates your country’s independence as strongly as he does ours.
Cofion gorau / Best wishes,
@ K. A. Mylchreest at 10:58pm
Glyn Adda is a retired university lecturer, a well-respected academic and campaigner for Welsh independence of many decades experience in both fields and a good friend of mine. I’m sure that his comments are only half tongue in cheek and that he also advocates your country’s independence as strongly as he does ours.
Cofion gorau / Best wishes,
Yesterday on Sky their reporter in Barcelona had a choice to interview thousands of Catalonians but selected a woman from Manchester who had there for five years. She talked about how bad it was, about the divided families and that she would leave Catalonia if it achieved independence and live in Spain. All sounds very familiar.
Last night Yahoo had a huge piece on lice infestation on Scottish salmon and sold to supermarkets, a story that can only harm the industry despite there being no risk to health.
I have noticed these negative stories and others are increasing and there is no doubt that the war against Scottish independence is being fought quietly on a daily basis.
I have no knowledge or any feeling either way on the Catalonia independence. But, I was listing to Sky reporters discussing situation They came out with the classic anti independence cry. Catalonia is too small and too poor.. Sounds familiar
You have to laugh. Edwina Curry, on Radio Scotland rabbiting on about sexual misconduct in WM.
Who even asked her on? Tabloid radio. Nae scruples.
A brilliant article, and to the point in every respect.
Unfortunately, that media spin is not put on just by the UK media, but ALL international media, from what I’ve seen.
One would have thought that at least my country, Finland, this year celebrating 100 years of achieving independence, would have had some sympathy for Catalonia, but alas no (at least not the government).
@ Tatu3 at 7:12am ….
Grim reading Tatu. A great deal of what went on in Spain under Franco has been forgotten about, outwith Spain, due to the Nazi atrocities and the 2nd World War. Like other sections of society that have suffered at the hands of their Governments / the Military, across the globe, anger and resentment still simmers away. The situation in Catalonia has just lifted a giant scab off of a massively deep and pervasive festering sore in Spain. Rajoy won’t last for much longer, imo, and like you I don’t see any point in the boycotting of goods, for a number of reasons.
…………………………
Thanks for the links Nana. What a carry on between one thing and another. Billionaires from around the world, from Saudi to the US, playing dangerous games with everyone. Looks as though the Illuminati are becoming careless or they’re being usurped by the new kids on the block.
Wow, Kate Perrior exposing the Tories for blackmailing their perverted politicians into subservience. Nothing new there right enough. It’s been going on for decades now and includes MI5 / 6 doing likewise, as they monitored (and filmed) the sexual abuse of kids for the sole purpose of blackmailing. That’s the Union that Scots voted for. Would make you feel like vomiting.
A list of 36 names floating about and a video circulating of a Tory backbencher having extreme sex with three men. Will that be covered up, documents go missing, like the long, long running paedophile horror story? Or could it bring the Tory Government down as someone asked me recently (apologies for not replying and I’m having problems finding your post). Well I hope it doesn’t because I don’t want to see another election being held that Corbyn would probably win, to our detriment. Let’s just get out of this jungle, ASAP, and allow the Westminster perverts to stew in their own juice without us. Let the English sort it out, especially as there’s 50 plus million of them.
Complaints are made to the Electoral Commission about funding for the leave campaign. The EC report this to the Police who take no action and now the EC is being sued in court over the EU referendum. You couldnae make it up. Meanwhile no one seems to be looking into dark money being used in Scotland to manipulate the outcome of elections, etc.
Bannon, Breitbart, dark money, Russia, Mannafort, Trump, Brexit and Farage. Looks as though Farage will get dragged into the Trump fiasco. Good enough for him.
Ha, ha, ha. No problem losing 75,000 jobs in the financial sector, as long as we continue to export jam, scones and cheddar cheese to France.
The Institute of Fiscal Studies (IFS) is a hard core neo-liberal organisation, as cr*p as the GERS figures, as per Richard Murphy. High time they were all outed for what they are.
What happened to Catalonia can’t happen to Scotland
link to archive.is
Not sure if this has been posted already, some info on the treaty of Utrecht here
link to searchbonus.eu
Petra says at 7.34am.
“Air pollution is worse in Glasgow than London. Worst in the UK in fact as per their map. Oh and, eh, although the expert mentioned that there are steps that the Government can take to deal with this, they omitted to say that Nicola Sturgeon announced plans recently to do just that. I’m also wondering too if the data is correct. Glasgow worse than London? Is this overall or street by street?”
If they re referring to pollution in Glasgow street by street then Hope Street must be high on the list.
My wife used to work in an office in Glasgow and get a bus home from Hope Street between 5 and 6pm each evening. The air was thick with diesel fumes and the buses were nose to tail.
Even though she has been retired for a few years now, she still worries about the long term effect on her health.
I’ve been up since 5:30 and got little done. Now I’m running late! This site is addictive.
Great post Macart.
Thanks a million for taking the time to do that Breeks. I’ll check it out later.
I wonder if anyone will hit Fallon with the honey trap story? Maybe someone could ask Ruth Davidson about it? That and her relationship with her “soul mate” Crabbe, the pervert.
Edwina Curry has some brass neck talking about Westminster misconduct. The wummin that was nicking about with John Major.
As many on here have pointed out previously. Brexit, callous / inept Tory policies and their inherently despicable ‘behaviour’ will help massively in winning the day for us. Just stock up on the popcorn, sit back and be patient.
Nana says:
” When surveys offered a choice between the status quo, independence or more autonomy, support for more autonomy regularly came out on top. Many of the people who voted for independence, in fact, saw it as the best way of getting to that middle ground.”
… and, more significantly, many people who voted against independence believed they were promised a much enhanced middle ground!
No one can doubt that although IndyRef1 was supposed to be about Indy versus status quo, it was derailed by DevoSuperFederalMax.
The ‘middle ground’ has progressed as far as it can, or more precisely, will be allowed to go. There is even a very real threat it will be rolled back!
We can only win IndyRef2 if it is a clear choice between Indy and disfunctional Union. Failure lies in seeking or being promised a compromise which doesn’t exist.
The great what are you going to use for currency argument
In 20 years there won’t be any cash anyway for the pensioners to moan about not having in order to pay for their practically defunct Daily Express and their cream cake at Greggs, it’ll be card everything so what’s the difference what the name of the money’s called, I don’t care if it’s called the Beansprout economy or Bobajob money it’ll all be plastic money fingerprint dosh or rectal scan, scratch that, retinal scan Phew!
Donald Bruce
Of course the Sky reporters are telling outright lies, Catalonia was 15% of Spain’s population but produces 25% of GDP.
And, unlike Scotland, Catalonia isn’t going to decide its future on the basis of what Sky, BBC or rightwing newspapers say.
@breeks
the EU and the UN are a pair of “couilles molle”
Scotland is only world famous in Scotland
the EU boy scouts are becoming more deluded by the hour
rectal scan, only for accepting bbc pay cheques, apparently
lol
link to youtube.com
I don’t know a great deal about Catalonia, but I’m reading stuff trying to learn more, but already I’m wondering if there are dimensions to all of this which we are not aware of.
Here in Scotland, we see in Catalonia fellow Independentists finding their path steep and rocky, and support is thin on the ground. That’s perfectly rational. We have much in common.
But in Spain, their bitter civil war is still living memoryhad a victor, the Nationalists, who are still in power. Depending on your perspective, the Nationalists were privileged right wing elites, or the defenders against communist revolution, backed by Fascist Germany and Italy. On the Republican side, you had the left, populist rebels, communists and anti fascists backed by the Soviet Union. Catalonia was Republican. Where we see modern democrats in Catalonia, the Spanish Nationalists undoubtedly see something else, something much uglier.
I don’t know what to think anymore. Is this about Catalonian Independence stepping forwards? Something my instincts would support? Or is this turning back the clock to unfinished Civil War frustrations threatening to re-ignite the uneasy tensions and more-or-less civil peace in Spain? Suddenly I wonder if we have long enough barge poles with fireproof tips.
By accident or design, it seems there are too many people in Spain currently playing with matches, and it does seem a damned irresponsible thing to do. We should all be careful, measured in our comments and actions, and perhaps cut Europe a little slack for their Non-Intervention instincts. There is more to this than the hypocrisy for sovereign recognition.
@Nana
Spotted a link to this on twitter. Interesting letters comment in the FT.
link to archive.is
Good letter, nice to see some folks ‘get it’ with regards to Scotland a nation, not a region.
Well spotted Macart.
Breeks at 10.35
Interesting thoughts but they are a distraction (and many distractions are being exercised by those opposed the democracy for Catalonia) from the only legitimate question…..
“Do the people of Catalonia have the right to vote for and decide how and by whom they are governed?”
That,in fact, is all.
An absolutely must buy and keep copy of the National today. The long letter from Dennis White is worth cutting out and keeping and the fabulous article by Hamish MacPherson on Lachie Munro’s measurement on Don Roberto (Robert Bontine Cunninghame Graham) should be made into a pamphlet and put into every house in Scotland.
His speeches could have been written today and how I wish he was here to deliver them now. Almost reduced to tears.
We should all be careful, measured in our comments and actions, and perhaps cut Europe a little slack for their Non-Intervention instincts. There is more to this than the hypocrisy for sovereign recognition.”
Have to disagree Breeks. We should say what we think, all the time too. Think and speak, speak and think.
What is extremely relevant to Scots like us, how the britnats and their massed ranks of media gimps are using Catalonia to monster Scottish democracy’s progress.
Because at the end of the day, this is what they’re trying to do, end Scottish democracy. Imagine how hard everyone in Pacific Quay for example is praying to the great gods of yoon, please please please let Catalonia fail and turn in to a civil war.
Great links Nana!
@ Nana 7.35 link . Just been reminded about another Sexual indiscretion by our elite politicians Charles Lynton aka ( Tony Blair ) prosecuted for cottaging in a public toilet .
Let’s all focus our mind power on Tory sleaze right now, like when Uri Gellar got us to fix David Beckham’s ankle thru the TV.
Let’s hope as in previous times, sleaze brings them down. I watched the pathetic side show of Andrea Loathsome speaking, not the brightest or most adept. May looked unable to speak, as I’m sure she would have vomited everywhere, if she had opened her maw.
It sticks in my throat badly that there are women in positions of power that are aiding and abetting these sex pests, by using the info to buy party loyalty. I instantly recalled pics of Thatcher and Savile, and remember Currie appointed Savile to some kind of inquiry into Broadmoor.
BBC and Sky pushing Martin Luther day and let’s us celebrate the crushing of Catholicism. Religions, academics, furriners, secession, Scotland – all saboteurs, burn them!
I am always being schooled, I was not aware how Scotland was perceived internationally (a kind contributor pointed out I was ignorant of the matter -true) So I thought I’d best refresh my memory.
I had believed, generally, that Scotland was internationally recognised as a country, but not a nation state. I never really gave any thought that perhaps the UN or some-such had it codified into a legal tome or charter somewhere like :(Appendix A- Scotland, Status to be recognised by everyone)
So, I pretty much cannot discover that anywhere.
What I can glean is that indeed, Scotland is recognised and codified as a country in various international organisations. But nowhere recognised as a nation state.
Now, to stall premature howls, allow me to say my fervent wish is for Scotland to become an independent nation state.
The belief or wish that ‘everyone’ knows and recognises Scotland is a nation? Well, that may be true, just because I can’t verify doesn’t mean it’s unverifiable. If anyone knows, enlighten me please.
I do know one internationally recognised State, UN & NATO member, which explicitly has codified, proclaimed and has a policy on Scotland. It believes that Scotland as a nation state was extinguished, would become a new state if independent and many other things besides – That is the UK government.
Its policy towards Scotland is akin to a certain Glasgow football team. It considers it was extinguished a long time ago and doesn’t exist.
If Scotland were to achieve independence it is a “Sevco” That’s basically it’s policy position. It is also it’s legal position. Not that this is some proven fact – but that is the legal argument it will stand on if ever the matter is prosecuted. Which it has been domestically – Westminster is Sovereign.
International organisations deal with Nation States, Nation States codify their own laws & they enforce their own laws.
If the UK government says it, international organisations will use that as their baseline, until the matter is decided otherwise.
I’m suggesting that these ‘organisations’ (if they think of Scotland at all) think in the terms framed for them by the Nation State they ‘recognise’ and deal with. Which is why it’s important for the Scottish government to be continually making diplomatic overtures to posit an alternative interpretation. If only to suggest there may be an alternative.
If you really wish to howl, you should read the UK government’s policy and advisory below. It is very comprehensive, it covers probably every argument you can bring to bear. If you believe Charles Stuart once pissed on a magic tree belonging to the Pope thereby signifying Scotland was forever free – Dixi! Well, They’ll have that covered.
If anyone wishes to test their mettle and pretend they are in international court, use it for reference.
Good luck! Don’t shoot the messenger.
link to gov.uk
Macart says:
31 October, 2017 at 10:39 am
@Nana
Spotted a link to this on twitter. Interesting letters comment in the FT.
“Democracy is not feared in the UK – it is embraced. Democracy should not be feared in Spain either.”
Good stuff, right below it, next up in the Financial Tory Times,
Read latest
Democracy is no defence against secessionists
TUESDAY, 31 OCTOBER, 2017
Europhile Left deluded if it thinks reform process will produce functional outcomes.
link to bilbo.economicoutlook.net
No chance of it ever happening.
If you’re a politician of influence in a “superstate” why would you want its size diluted and you’d go to lengths to preserve it for your own ends.
There’s an analogous situation in Eastern Iraq ( and bits of Syria, Iran and Turkey ) where the culturally distinct Kurds deserve their own state. Mind you it was Western meddling a century ago that carved up land without thought.
Ever been to E Africa with the line of the Kenya / Tanzania border going straight through the Masai lands ? Think of Cecil looking north to Northern Rhodes(ia) and south to Southern Rhodes(ia) !
Comic relief. Arise Sir Billy, and thank you so much for all the laughs you gave us. As Glasgow slumped into endemic poverty, drug and alcohol abuse, violence, street, domestic, sectarian etc, your drunk broke weegie impersonations gave England so many laughs.
link to stv.tv
Not been posting for a bit, but I see nothing has changed for Ken500, he is still posting copious bile for the violent, fascist regime in Madrid.
Good work, Ken500, you are indefatigable in your mission.
Mr Rev, do we have to have all these long winded posts, i never read them and i am sure a lot of members here do the same, in fact its actually putting me off visiting as much as i would like to, its like my mother used to do, she would tell me what she was reading in the paper, but i allready new what was in the paper, short and sweet posts please, i don’t need a load of facts and figures, i was a business man i can work out all the figures for myself, thank you very much…………….. Peace and love to all
Billy Connolly’s success depended on Glasgow staying the same, an Independent successful Scotland would spoil his patter.
I remember an interview with him where he seemed pleased to go back to Glasgow, meet his former workmates, and see they were still stuck in the old routine with the same attitudes.
The contrast was important to his self esteem. He moaned about Independence but live in the US and Australia, both successful in their independence.
Spooky Samhain…
link to imgur.com
I remember an interview with him where he seemed pleased to go back to Glasgow, meet his former workmates, and see they were still stuck in the old routine with the same attitudes.”
He worked in the yards for a couple of weeks, then legged it. Myth and Sir Billy go hand in UKOK hand. Good luck to him, he’s made a fortune, left Scotland for warmer climes, LA and Venice, who can blame the cant.
Other news from teamGB,
link to archive.is
HomeNewsScottish NewsGlasgow
Orange Order march ‘will definitely go ahead’ in 2018 despite clashing with TRNSMT festival
Grand Orange Lodge boss insists massive march to Glasgow Green will still take place despite being scheduled for same date and venue as music festival
08:52, 31 OCT 2017UPDATED09:11, 31 OCT 1917
No doubt stinky old The Guardian will be marching along with their OO chums.
link to archive.is
“Democracy is not feared in the uk, it is embraced”
Aye, sure.
Whoever wrote that nugget has not been paying attention to uk politics.
“Vote tory and say No to a democratic and parliamentary mandated indyref…”
“Vote labour..see above”
……….
“Brexit must be respected..we are democrats” (lab/tory).
……….
Embracing democracy my hairy Scottish arse.
Carles Puigdemont is making his first public comments since fleeing Catalonia
link to pscp.tv
Ottomanboi 8.30am
So Puigdemont is an irrelevance? Thanks for your insight there.
For others, Puigdemont will not lose his relevance, taking his statement into the heart of the EU, and asking them to protect what it is the EU are supposed to stand for.
Puigdemont speaking in fluent French, and saying hello in about 5 languages. I’m pretty sure he knows what he is doing, and I think the man is a bloody hero.
Someone help iain mhor, he is in danger of drowning in his dribbling pish.
Jeezo…not a clue has he got.
David Caledonia: I agree, I don’t read long winded posts too.
Puigdemont, says he’s not in Brussels seeking asylum, he says he’s in Brussels looking for recognition for Catalonia, and to avoid ridiculous Spanish charges, that could see him rot in a Spanish jail for thirty years.
This also applies to several of his ministers, hopefully Brussels will now step in and negotiate with both nations.
A UN independent expert, has already blasted Spain over suspending Catalan autonomy.
link to ohchr.org
It wouldn’t surprise me if Madrid issued a (EAW) European Arrest Warrant for Puigdemont and his ministers in the near future.
How would Brussels react?
Billy Connollys has earned his titlel as he has served England well at the expense of Scotland pass the sick bag please
Chick McGregor at 4:36pm
“Sorry, not the intention. Normal practice here to just indicate post replied to.”
I’ve got no problem with people indicating the post they’re replying to.
However if you’re replying to a quote within a post it helps to make that clear as well.
ALERT
Gordon Brown is being rolled out again with generous media coverage. They are about to use him again against Scotland
THIS MORNING:
President of Catalonia is not seeking Political Asylum in Belgium.
“Catalonia’s sacked President Carles Puigdemont says he has not travelled to Belgium to seek asylum.
He has appeared in public in Brussels with several colleagues after declaring independence from Spain last week……..”
“….Mr Puigdemont said he was not trying to escape justice but wanted to be able to speak freely.
He was speaking as Spain’s constitutional court suspended the declaration of independence made by the Catalan leader on Friday.
In a press conference on Tuesday, Mr Puigdemont also said he would accept the result of snap Catalonia elections in December called by Spain’s central government when the region’s autonomy was suspended.
He did not clarify how long he would stay in Belgium, but said he would return once he was given “guarantees” by the Spanish government.”
BBC State Broadcaster Archived:
link to archive.is
Get all the latest on Catalonia and the president’s speech here
link to twitter.com
@Petra & Val –
Don’t know if you’ll have seen this already, but it’s only about 5 yrs old.
I can’t imagine what Edwina Currie knows, or who she has dirt on, but the fact that she manages to make a living being ‘controversial’ (largely via the BBC) speaks volumes.
Off the top of me head I can’t think of anyone I despise more. She’s a total midden.
link to youtube.com
Wow, how’s that for a tory headline, from our democracy lovers at the beeb gimp network.
BBC State Broadcaster Archived:
link to archive.is
Catalan independence: Sacked leader Puigdemont not seeking asylum
6 minutes ago
From the section Europe
Regards the issuing of an EAW.
The legislation is remarkably obscure on this.
In regards to human rights, it seems those can either be ignored and a EAW issued or taken into account and a EAW refused.
……..
Human rights(Edit)
Article 3 of the Framework Decision which lists grounds upon which executing states must refuse to surrender a requested person does not expressly include any ground for refusing the surrender of a requested person if that surrender would infringe a person’s human rights. However recitals (12) and (13) of the preamble and Article 1(3) do refer to human rights:
Recital (12)”This Framework Decision respects fundamental rights and observes the principles recognised by Article 6 of the Treaty on European Union and reflected in the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union, in particular Chapter VI thereof.
Nothing in this Framework Decision may be interpreted as prohibiting refusal to surrender a person for whom a European arrest warrant has been issued when there are reasons to believe, on the basis of objective elements, that the said arrest warrant has been issued for the purpose of prosecuting or punishing a person ON THE GROUNDS OF his or her sex, race, religion, ethnic origin, nationality, language, POLITICAL OPINIONS or sexual orientation, or that that person’s position may be prejudiced for any of these reasons.
This Framework Decision does not prevent a Member State from applying its constitutional rules relating to due process, freedom of association, freedom of the press and freedom of expression in other media.”
………..
Reading that, it is highly doubtful that Belgium would Endorse an EAW against the Catalan leader. After all, they happily allowed him entry to Belgium in full knowledge that Madrid would be likely to bring charges to bear against him.
It is an interesting point, but if Puidgemont applied for political asylum he would surely get it, as the Spanish gov charges will surely apply to the breach of the Spanish constitution.
That constitution which is at odds with the UN charters of which Spain is a signatory of.
@David Caledonia – I agree
I truly want to more know about the Catalan situation but there are posts on here constantly that seem more like long propaganda rants than information or questions for discussion. I just don’t read them anymore.
If people want to post ‘facts’ then back them up with links otherwise forget it as our ‘opinions’ are all equally valid or invalid.
@ Ian Brotherhood
Shurely an insult tae middens everywhere.
@scottishpsyche.
You said..
“‘opinions’ are all equally valid or invalid”
Yet here you are, agreeing with someone who wants to ban posts because they do not like how long they are !!
You claim they are “propoganda rants”, yet you admit you “just don’t read them anymore”
So you actually have no idea what the content is.
You are all over the place here, and frankly, you look a bit daft as a result.
@geeo
You are entitled to your ‘opinion’ as am I.
Off the top of me head I can’t think of anyone I despise more. She’s a total midden.
From that, look at Paxo flounder. Talk about self preservation societies.
link to youtube.com
From Liz Castro’s Twitter ..
Latest CEO Poll results:
Do you think Catalonia has achieved
too much 5.4%
right amount 23%
not enough 64.6%
autonomy?
I suspect a poll asking the exact same question in Scotland would get a very similar result.
My understanding is that Catalonia has been demanding more autonomy for a decade or more and Madrid ignores it. Thus they are pursuing Indy.
This is yet another parallel between Scotland and Catalonia. The preferred option here has been more autonomy. However it has been fiercely opposed e.g. Smith, despite promises.
You have to be given more powers, you can take full independence. In Scotland that is the position. In Catalonia, that is being challenged by Madrid against UN rules.
More from Liz Castro
“Do you think Catalonia should be an independent state?
Yes: 48.7%
No: 43.6%
Don’t Know 6.5%
No Answer: 1.3%
In other words, since the DKs and NAs don’t count, that’s 52.8% in favor and 47.2% against.”
… which clearly shows why Madrid is shiting itself, and shiting all bier Catalan democracy.
A fair referendum with UN / international oversight is needed.
Regarding Spain triggering a (EAW).
Puigdemont would need to prove that the charges against him were politically motivated. As a EU citizen I’d imagine he’d have the right to challenge those charges in a Belgian court, and not a Spanish one.
Puigdemont already has a Belgian lawyer Paul Berkaert, who specialises in asylum cases. Though even he couldn’t achieve asylum for two ETA members in Belgium in 2010.
Belgian PM Charles Michel, has said that Puigdemonts asylum, is definitely not on the governments agenda.
Though according to the European Council on Refugees and Exiles, between 2013 and 2015, Belgium and the Netherlands were the only member states to grant asylum or subsidiary protection to EU nationals on first request.
There is no parallel between Scotland and Catalonia.
What are some folk on about? Repeating misleading figures doesn’t make it right.
Easy to jump to conclusions, righteous though they may be. It’s right not to condemn those who do not condemn others, it’s part of social responsibility. Patience not petrol on symbolic flames.
Although, there is something missing from the EU’s statements on Catalonia. No public display of respect for the civilised nature of the Catalonian Independence movement. We should be seeing leaders shaking hands with both sides.
The whole point of democracy, is to remove the need for armed struggles against stubborn rulers.
BREAKING: A senior Conservative councillor has been charged with attempted murder
link to archive.is
geeo
people post their opinions. end of
you may disagree. fine.
but your every second post at present consist of ridiculing and insulting someone else
it isnt necessary.
geeo
it is also gettin’ oan ma tits
@scottishpsyche.
You are not giving an opinion.
To have an opinion you need to base it on something.
You are making a collection of nonsensical and contradictory comments based on absolutely nothing except the air in your head.
“I do not read posts but claim to know what is in them”, is not an opinion, it is a supposition, and a badly failing one at that, by the simplest of definitions.
According to this report, when asked the Vice President of the Spanish Senate said..
Q. If in the elections the independentistas are elected again, would it be activated again (the 155th)?”
A. “If the law is not complied with, the new government will be required to comply and we will do the same and that is what must be applied.”
link to insurgente.org
Is the interpretation of that answer, one it doesn’t matter if Si wins again, we’ll not recognise it?
The Belgian lawyer Paul Bekaert, engaged by Puigdemont is an expert on the details of the European arrest warrant, which no doubt is why he’s been hired.
“I have more than 30 years of experience in extradition and political asylum of Spanish Basques, and that is probably why he called me Puigdemont, and I am familiar with extradition and the European arrest warrant,” he added.
link to lasexta.com
Unless you can read Spanish the link will have to be translated but is worth reading.
@shroedingers cat…
Yet here you are, doing the exact thing you claim of me and object to…!!
Bit rich.
Dave McEwan Hill
“Do the people of Catalonia have the right to vote for and decide how and by whom they are governed?”
That,in fact, is all.
————————-
correct, it is also the name of our movement in scotland
YES
Someone playing by Madrid rules? EU is certainly 100% NO thanks to Catalonia.
Guy Verhofstadt
16 mins ·
Facebook Mentions
·
This cartoon is circulating. Not sure if comparing Puigdemont to Tintin is adequate. Tintin always finds solutions to the adventures he encounters, while Puigdemont left Catalonia in chaos and devastation.
BREAKING from Pravda Quay
with Jackie Kin Ono
link to imgur.com
Another interesting set of answers from the poll Liz Castro referred to, carried 16th – 29th October.
A region of Spain 4.6%
An autonomous community of Spain 27.4%
A State within a federal Spain 21.9%
An independent State 40.2%
Do not know 4.7%
Does not answer 1.2%
link to tinyurl.com
Again, you might get very similar results from Scotland with such options. Clearly there is not a snowball in Hell’s chance of a federal UK. I can’t speak for Spain.
Compromise solutions attract backing, however would they genuinely ever be available? The more options you give folks, the more you reduce full independence backing.
Conversely, concentrate minds on two, and only two, outcomes and people have to make a realistic choice.
Orange Hitler completely mute on Catalonia but he is only the leader of the free world, for a few months more anyway.
He has his great mind on other legal indictment/treasonable things and it interesting how the teamGB media are ignoring some cataclysmic stuff going on in Washington right now. Are there some UKOK toryboy rings tightening too?
link to youtube.com
@gala
this is in line with my findings on other polls on social media
only one result in the elections and/or next ref in catalunya with big turnout
how will they spin this?
schrodingers cat says:
It surprises me that Madrid want a new election. Perhaps they believe that when the key figures are removed, and a Project Fear campaign, the pro Indy parties will lose their majority.
Or maybe they plan some underhand technique … wheel out some has-been to talk of a Federal solution, when of course the central government has no such plans.
The bottom line has to be, there will probably be a pro Indy majority again. What then for Madrid?
Like Scotland, their ‘problem’ won’t go away. At best they play for time.
@galamcennalath.
I am sure there was a statement posted somewhere that Rajoy has said Madrid would not recognise a result which produced a pro indy majority in these elections.
If true, what is the point of holding one, unless you “know” the outcome in advance…?
@Heedtracker (1.27) –
Cheers for the Paxo clip. Hadn’t seen that before – properly excruciating stuff, and it’s the tip of a big Savile-shaped iceberg.
Hell mend them all.
The very idea that Rajoy is calling a Catalonian election when HE has sacked the democratically elected Catalan government and is trying to bring the leaders of that democratically elected parliament to a law court to send them to jail, is unbelievably crass.
If Rajoy is saying that those same suspended pro indy parties can take part, then how on earth can he justify jailing the leaders of those parties while this election takes place, that is plainly ridiculous and far removed from democracy.
Does Rajoy seriously think, that if a Pro indy majority is delivered by the electorate of Catalonia, that the new government will not simply restate Catalonia as an independent nation based on the will of the electorate ?
Then what will he do ?
Hell mend them all.
Are all regimes or elites this wretched and rotten though, in the free world? This is from the one man could have actually done what he says he thinks should have happened, excluding his own UKOK redemption, redeemed by terrorising Scots pensioners for example, 2014.
link to independent.co.uk
LIVE from Pravda Quay
with Jackie Kim Ono
link to imgur.com
Paul Mason on ‘the list’
link to twitter.com
Goodness, I should of course have said Paul Mason thread regarding ‘the list’ did not mean to imply that Paul is on the list, sure you all realised that?
He is not a politician.
Got to be soooo careful, lol
Surely, geeo at 3.25, Rahoy’s statement suggests that the new elections in Catalunya will not be fair, but subject to the kinds of subterfuge and abuse we suspected were employed against us.
After all he is busy installing officials and functionaries sympathetic to Madrid and presumably they will be controlling the polling stations.
He could have let the Catalans have their election unhindered if he were really interested in a genuine election but instead he panicked. As spiritual heir of Franco, the last thing he wants is democracy.
It’s worth a read Ian Mohr, but I confess it makes the hackles rise.
I find it very “British” in its outlook, “things are the way they are because we say they are”.
For example:-
3.3 Reversion to a previous independent state such as the pre-1707 Scottish state may not be excluded. But it normally depends on conditions that are absent here, such as the unwilling subjugation of the former state.
Nevermind the unwilling subjugation, I’m more curious about the impossible subjugation implicit with Scotland’s popular sovereignty “joining” with England’s divine sovereignty, and how the Westminster Parliament removed Scotland’s sovereignty from the people, and removed it all the way to Westminster. Sovereignty was never within the grasp of Scotland’s Parliament of the day for them to abdicate the birthright of every Scottish citizen. What they did was unconstitutional then, and has remained unconstitutional every day since.
I smile at the term “..may not be excluded”. You’re rootin’ tootin’ right it may not be excluded.
I also note the word “normally”, and after the Smith Commission, I very much doubt Scotland’s MP’s and MSP’s will roll over and accept such a casual reference as what “normally” happens.
@Nana
I think we got that, interesting list though!
Here’s a link to an interesting article by a Lecturer in Spanish and European Studies at the University of Bath on the stance and chances of the various parties that may stand in the proposed elections in Catalonia.
link to archive.is
Maybe the Rev should meet him for a pint and he could be persuaded to write an article for Wings. Just kidding 🙂
~@Petra says: 31 October, 2017 at 6:28 am:
@ Breeks at 5:54am …….
“Breeks any chance of outlining in practical terms what we (Nicola etc?) should do exactly to “seize our Sovereignty (or Sovereign recognition) back from Westminster before the next ballot is held?”
Petra, Breeks has the right of it. I’ve been preaching that sermon since I first posted to Wings. I’ve also been telling everyone what we should be doing and doing consistently at every opportunity.
On every occasion anyone uses the terms, “Britain”, or, “British”, when the correct term is referring to either, “The Westminster Parliament”, or, “The United Kingdom”, they should be requested to correct their errors.
Especially if they are journalists, broadcasters of political figures of any shape, form, or colour from the political party spectrum of colours.
Then, every time they use the term, “United Kingdom”, we must question exactly how that term properly describes the way that Westminster governs.
I’ll explain that last one in detail – Westminster, under the guise of being still the government of a bipartite United Kingdom of equally sovereign KINGDOMS is operating now as the de facto parliament of the COUNTRY of England treating the other three countries in the now, DISUNITED KINGDOM.
i.e. the union of kingdoms no longer exists because Westminster, (elected as the United Kingdom Government), has told us in no uncertain terms, that the Kingdom of Scotland no longer exists, and the Treaty of Union renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom.
There is a Westminster Government commissioned paper that claims just that and David Mundell has said so on national Television and been reported as doing so in the national press of every British country in and out of the United Kingdom:=
link to youtube.com
Here is a website I just came across while searching that Mundell clip:-
link to thestudentroom.co.uk
I have known, even as a wee pre-school laddie, that the Westminster Government were telling Scots that crazy story. I’ll explain that also for you. My Grand Parents brought me up because my father was conscripted to fight in WWII but, by a weird Civil Service mistake, my then young mother was also conscripted to do munitions work in England.
As an aside it was thanks to Arthur Donaldson, (he became SNP leader), fought the case of Scots women being conscripted to munitions factories in England and my mother was, (not actually exempted from munitions work), returned to do war work in an Edinburgh factory throughout WWII.
Also my fathers two older sisters went to London pre-WWII to work as Civil Servants. Both married their department bosses but one aunt, did so quite late after WWII after herself reaching quite a high level in the Civil Service.
We thus found out some stuff we really should not have been privy to but that’s another story. There is absolutely no doubt that the actions of Westminster to relegate Scotland to just another English dominion were/are all pre-planned and did not happen by accident.
The facts stare us in the face yet few Scots seem to be able to see the truth.
Westminster is the de facto parliament of the country of England and there is no actual United Kingdom.
Yet no members of a Parliament of the Parliament of England have been elected since April 1707.
Every Member at Westminster is elected as a member of the United Kingdom Parliament and there are only two such kingdoms that comprise the United Kingdom.
The UK is a Kingdom it is not a country.
It only has two partner kingdoms and they are equally sovereign.
It contains four countries but three of them are parts of the KINGDOM of England.
Yet only England has direct funding from the treasury while everyone else gets a grant from the de facto parliament of England.
I honestly cannot understand why any Scottish person is unable to comprehend the actual facts through the lies and propaganda.
The fact is the United Kingdom has not existed for many decades. The only way for the truth to emerge is by facing the liars who use the wrong terms in order to deceive.
It is now so commonly misused that you can see dedicated Wingers use the terms wrongly. We have to question every time a political figure misuses these terms – only them will the Scottish electorate come out of the stupor they have been in most of their lives.
If you’re a British Nationalist you’re in favour of Spain purely and simply because it offers an excuse to abuse Scotlands aspirations
The British Nationalists couldn’t give a monkeys for Spain or Catalonia to them it’s a sunny holiday resort for God Sake
Just like Scotland, except for the sunny part, although we have got such family sports as Sectarian street chanting for all levels, birdy shooting for the wealthier holiday maker and if you want to stay in we have the BBC comedy politics on English TV because we don’t have any actual Scottish TV
You could go to the football of course but would have to declare your particular religious preferences as to where you’ll be segregated a seat for your own safety if you go to either of the Glasgow “big two” matches and be prepared to display hatred unto death of the other team
These are some of the joys of a holiday in British Nationalist Scotland
Wish you were here?
@geeo
Scanning and skimming are recognized techniques for reading. With long posts, I scan for a link or reference and I skim for the gist of the post. I can easily see within seconds whether a post is repetitive and contains phrases that put me off without reading the entire piece.
link to teachingenglish.org.uk
I have not asked for anyone to be banned – I have commented that I find long repetitive post off-putting and I will avoid reading them in full and in depth. That is my opinion.
Are we clear?
The Secretary of State for Scotland says Scotland doesn’t exist and nobody questions the point of his job
Mark Knofler comes to mind
Money for nothing
No, Scottishpsyche..you STATED that you ““just don’t read them anymore”
Nothing about skimming etc.
You are backtracking.
@tinto chiel 3.51pm…
Absolutely right.
THE LIST
Includes Boris Johnson, Damien Green, Liam Fox, Michael Fallon and other Ministers and big names.
General Election NOW Mayhem.
THE LIST
link to imgur.com
An excellent piece of detective work and analysis.
@geeo
I honestly don’t know what your problem is with my posts as you never explain. But just to help you out:
Just because I fervently believe something it does not make it fact.
I believe Scotland will have no problems becoming independent and has very strong allies through the matrilineal line – via King Elisine of Alba and Presine the Serpent goddess. The links are there in the Plantagenet line, Angevin, Vere, Anjou and Lusignan. For her daughter was Melusine – through which the House of Luxembourg claim descent via Siegfried.
Her serpent traits are those of Dagon or the dragon. The popes Mitre is modelled after the fish head mitre of Dagon, and with the Illuminati or Dragon Societies like the Rothschilds (Red Shield) & The White Dragons are among the rulers of the world.
The secret power lies in the line of the serpent and Scotland is a principle house of that European line.
Ergo : Europe recognises the primacy of the Scottish Line and we shall take our rightful place in the hallowed pantheon of the Dragon Rulers.
Mwuahahaha
Now that sir, is actual gibbering pish.
link to en.m.wikipedia.org
Terribly sorry, my error, King Elinas not Elisine.
Mea culpa
Proud Cybernat @ 16:53,
Thanks but no thanks and a definite body swerve on that one, PC.
Seems that Paul Mason was spot on – it appears to conflate alleged private relationships between consenting adults with alleged predatory behaviour. Two entirely different things.
One imagines that the party whips’ office of every party has such a list. Since humans are =ahem= human.
Iain mhor says:
Mwuahahaha
Now that sir, is actual gibbering pish.
————————-
lol, but good gibbering pish
Iain mhor
you forgot to mention the very sovereign goat
@ RJS
Aye, ah get that – but some of those ‘consenting adults’ were already married at the time of their indiscretions.
The issue for me with this is that the Whips use this ‘dirt’ to ensure their MPs state on-message, effectively blackmailing them. The rules need to change. That Whips can use this ‘intel’ to ‘persuade’ MPs to their way of thinking must go–just one more stink from WM that undermines democracy UK-style.
That Whips can use this ‘intel’ to ‘persuade’ MPs to their way of thinking must go——–
politicians must be upfront and clear about everything, otherwise if their “descrepancies” are uncovered it leaves them open to blackmail by anyone, not just whips.
Actually, iain mhor..that is the most sense you have made yet.
It almost seems to me that having skeletons in the cupboard is a pre-requisite for a successful selection to stand as a Tory Councillor / MP / MSP. The Tory High Command will know that they can effectively control such candidates.
Except, of course, when Social Media calls them out first as racists / bigots / homophobes / xenophobes etc. Then the leadership loses the ‘leverage’ over them and hence why, they may need to be replaced with new ‘better’ candidates i.e. ones that still have skeletons in the cupboard and which, once elected, can be used to control them.
Tin foil hat off now. I’m away tae the pub.
3:52pm Correction…
Apologies, it was not the Smith Convention of course, I meant the Sewel Convention.
Happy New Year to all fellow Celtic independentistas!
Apparently , now 3000 additional civil servants now “ working” on Brexit ( Douglas Fraser informs JB on propaganda quay 0630pm “ news” ). Numbers to rise to circa 5000 . Current cost apparently 500 million . No doubt all Scottish taxpayers share is presently being spent in Whitehall London. Just another jobs bonanza for the exclusive benefit of the London “ gravy train” ruling class.
C4 teatime news, ligger in Brussels watching Catalan sacked President(BBC gimp network calls him) says, EU has to contain Catalonia break up of Spain and its “contagion.”
Contagion is you vile seps of England’s Scotland region, YOU!
The C4 ligger’s not actually said we’re contagion directly, just a wee mention of Scotland. Never seen tory liggers this jumpy before though. Must be that contagion.
Quite bizarre watching the news there – SKY sticking with the scandal of Brewer’s Knee while, over on Twitter, unredacted copies of the full list (36 names) are appearing as fast as others can be deleted.
If that list is accurate, they’re done, and Brexit will be the least of their fucking worries.
Just another jobs bonanza for the exclusive benefit of the London “ gravy train” ruling class.
They all used to promise the UK dept of Energy was going to be moved from London, to Europe’s oil capital, of, A____n, for decades too. Anne Begg said it was all coming, trust in Crash Gordo, who’s not touchy feely enough for politics.
How beeb Scotland gimps promise big moves, in the UK, by UK gov, that never ever happen. Aint no shyster like a BBC Scotland etc.
link to bbc.co.uk
N-56 calls for oil and gas decision-makers to be in Aberdeen
10 March 2015
@ Welsh Sion who said
Happy New Year to all fellow Celtic independentistas!
here’s a thought for hallowe’en!
link to eurofree3.wordpress.com
What currency will Scotland use again?
link to independent.co.uk
Looking clearer every day that the next indyref should be a simple ‘yes or no’ question.
No way should it be infected by any EU connection.
And in case you wondered why it had all gone quiet on the refugee front.
Well its the cuddly EU in action again.
link to archive.is
” The 2002 Directive on the facilitation of illegal entry and residence, which is aimed at organised people traffickers, contains a non-binding humanitarian exemption that is supposed to ensure that such activities are excluded from its scope. Fifteen years later, however, two-thirds of EU member states now apply the law but not the exemption, paving the way for the widespread criminalisation of refugee solidarity and activism. ”
North chiel @ 7:23 pm
“…. now 3000 additional civil servants now ‘working’ on Brexit ….. Numbers to rise to circa 5000 . Current cost apparently 500 million.”
So the country that voted not to leave the EU will be contributing our typical 8.5% – our population share – of the costs? So c. £42.5m as a ‘current’ cost – but what is the ongoing cost of continuing to employ these 5,000 people?
And it is a reasonable assumption that these jobs will largely be based in England, if not London and the SE. So any office accommodation purchased, any goods and services that are bought-in to enable them to work will largely (typically) be obtained locally – so limited supply chain benefit to Scotland from this use of our tax contribution. Limited if any ‘supply chain multiplier effect’ (knock-on benefit) in Scotland.
And if largely based in England, then the salaries these jobs attract will go directly to families in England to spend – so limited ‘income multiplier effect’ in Scotland from the spend of our taxes.
Any how many well-educated people in Scotland will be attracted away to these new ‘good’ public sector jobs in England?
And in a couple of years time, surprise, surprise the economic metrics used in things like GERS make Scotland’s economy look ‘even weaker’ than the ‘UK as a whole”. And of course this will be made worse as it seems the secret document Mundell won’t let us see allegedly indicates Scotland will suffer most economically from Brexit.
It is a downward spiral!
Yoon culture in Scotland smears/makes the most of Westminster vomit inducing nightmare,
link to bbc.co.uk
Meanwhile,
link to bbc.co.uk
Labour activist ‘warned’ about pursuing rape claim
1 hour ago
From the section UK Politics
Brian Doonthetoon,
“You just aren’t able to accept that THE SCOTS, ie, the people who make up our Scottish society, are SOVEREIGN.”
Why should I accept a myth?
The “sovereignty” of the Scots is not worth the paper it was written on.
The “plebs” of Scotland have never been “sovereign” and never will be until after independence with a written constitution giving them proper rights.
Did the “sovereign” people of Scotland vote for the Treaty of Union?
Or was it forced upon them because they were not “sovereign”?
Excellent article from Craig Murray on Catalan leadership – On Being a Rebel – with quote from Gandhi.
link to craigmurray.org.uk
Alex Clark,
“I know now that that most most important members of the Catalan government including Puigdemont have sought refuge in Belgium”
Spain will almost certainly seek their extradition, which Belgium will have to accept.
I hope the embassy of Equador is big enough to accommodate them all.
Rock (19th September – “The warning notice”):
“The difference is spineless “sovereign” Scots bottled it despite getting a free vote whereas the Catalonians are showing real spine, although they will be crushed by the Spanish state while the EU does little more than make a few noises.”
Not bbc news?
link to thoughtcontrolscotland.com
Capella says:
31 October, 2017 at 8:08 pm
Excellent article from Craig Murray on Catalan leadership – On Being a Rebel – with quote from Gandhi.
C4 news guy in Catalonia tonight said its all over for now. He did the vox pop thing and they said Puigdemont was a coward, and they voted for him but wont now. Its basically the same English tory media campaigning we saw from them in Scotland, 2014. British tory propaganda is very samie/y/ee.
Hi Rock at 8:06 pm.
You generated,
“Brian Doonthetoon,
“You just aren’t able to accept that THE SCOTS, ie, the people who make up our Scottish society, are SOVEREIGN.”
Why should I accept a myth?
The “sovereignty” of the Scots is not worth the paper it was written on.
The “plebs” of Scotland have never been “sovereign””
I guess, by your thinking, the Declaration of the Clergy (1309/10), in which “the plebs” are specifically mentioned, is a myth?
Our sovereignty is a fact. Because a lot of Scots don’t understand that, doesn’t make it a myth. Once enough Scots get their heads around the issue of our sovereignty, the game will change.
Instead of being negative incessantly (like yourself), we should be explaining the truth to those who are unaware; the Declaration of Arbroath can als be used in the mix.
But you’ve got to put it as a positive thing. You, Rockbot, will not be able to do that, due to your negativity.
Puigdemont has done exactly the right thing as he has since the beginning.
He is out of the reach of the Spanish government and a visible indictment of its anti democratic behaviour. They can’t touch him and nobody is about to extradite him. The EU is being put on the spot.
Liz Castro’s twitter account keeps up with Catalan developments. She posts a link to a complaint procedure for the EU re a member state breaking EU law. Also a link to Puigdemont’s new website since the Spanish state closed down his official one.
link to twitter.com
Brian Doonthetoon,
“Our sovereignty is a fact.”
You avoided answering questions because you know your pretendy “sovereignty” is not worth the paper it was written on:
Did the “sovereign” people of Scotland vote for the Treaty of Union?
Or was it forced upon them because they were not “sovereign”?
Dave McEwan Hill,
“He is out of the reach of the Spanish government and a visible indictment of its anti democratic behaviour. They can’t touch him and nobody is about to extradite him. The EU is being put on the spot.”
He is very much in reach of the Spanish government. Wait till he is charged. Hopefully he has plans to escape to a country where he will be safe.
The EU and powerful leaders of EU members have made it perfectly clear that the referendum was illegal and that Catalonia is not welcome in the EU.
Do you believe Nicola will defy Saint Theresa and hold a referendum without a Section 30 order from Westminster?
Some night-reading from the 14th century.
link to rps.ac.uk
We plebs get a goodly mention.
Brian Doonthetoon,
“Our sovereignty is a fact. Because a lot of Scots don’t understand that, doesn’t make it a myth. Once enough Scots get their heads around the issue of our sovereignty, the game will change.”
The likes of you and Robert Peffers are terrified that the myth would be busted once and for all if it was taken to a Scottish court.
You prefer to live with the myth, I prefer to live with reality.
Proud Cybernat (28th October – “Scottish politics in numbers”):
“Good stuff there, Mr Peffers.
I would like to ask something of you. Can you devise a QUESTION that can demonstrate how the present ‘legal’ constitutional arrangement of the UK is adversely impacting on our Scottish rights that is contrary to the provisions of the Treaty/Act of Union?
If such a very goo test question can be devised, perhaps it might be possible that we could Crowd Fund a petition to the Court of Session / Supreme Court. And hopefully then get this constitutional dog’s breakfast decided once and for all.
Yupffurrit?”
Rock:
“Yes, Robert Peffers, Yupffurrit?
I can say with 100% confidence that you are not.”
Robert Peffers:
“I do not believe I am qualified to do such a thing, Proud Cybernat. It really needs a trained and qualified legal person.”
Rock:
“I knew your “expertise” on all Scottish constitutional matters was as pretendy as your pretendy “sovereignty”.”
Scotland’s greatest ever pretendy constitutional expert ducked out of the challenge.
Yupffurrit, Brian Doonthetoon?
You will be crowd funded all the way to court.
Nae completely accurate, you appear to be regurgitating the BritNat Media line @geeo says at 3:25 pm
“The very idea that Rajoy is calling a Catalonian election when HE has sacked the democratically elected Catalan government”.
DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED LEADERS CANNOT BE SACKED
THEY CAN ONLY BE VOTED OUT OF OFFICE OR DEPOSED
Carles Puigdemont and his Government have been DEPOSED plain and simple.
Well done Catalan for planting a bunion on the Spanish Onion
link to caltonjock.com
Looking at the list of 36 some of those names and events are known. Whippingdale has already graced the Sunday tabloids as has Johnson.
The observation that Bob Stewart is perpetually intoxicated did raise a wry smile though.
That is just the Tories, what will the full list look like and could it really be as high one in 9 of MPs are unable to control their urges?
Rock at 9.32
“The EU and powerful leaders of EU members have made it perfectly clear that the referendum was illegal and that Catalonia is not welcome in the EU.”
Provide some evidence for this statement.
The EU has pointed out that the Spanish Government judges the referendum illegal and the EU has made no statement that Catalonia is not welcome in the EU. The notion that the EU would prevent an independent Catalonia being a member is absurd.
Here’s an interesting and shocking fact:
Puigdemont will be the 5th Catalan President to be forced to live abroad by Spain in less than 100 years.
That list of 36, those names (if true) some fairly big Brexiteers amongst them @Proud Cybernat says at 4:53 pm.
Call me cynical….
That would be enough by-elections to topple Mays Government.
link to parliament.uk
Funny this Sexual harassment culture has been ongoing and known about for years but only becomes an issue now.
Big business/Shadow State trying to stop Brexit at the 11th Hour?
Top BBC ligger Donalda MacKinnon, is another tory propagandist that’s been a revelation, in tory attack propaganda.
link to craigmurray.org.uk
I see another British supporter is releasing a book of fiction soon. No not JK Rowling but the other peddler of tall tales and flights of fantasy…Gordon Brown LOL.
A memo to EU leaders- there is no democracy without human rights, no human rights without democracy;
‘Independent of but concurrent with the electoral shocks, the gathering political disaster in Catalonia threatens a still harsher blow to the EU’s prestige…By imposing central government rule over Catalonia, the right-wing Rajoy government threatens to provoke the civil strife that contradicts the EU’s spirit if not its legal framework…
In late 2016 and into 2017 the future of the Rajoy government hung by a thread, a minority government rendered unpopular by its ideologically motivated implementation of unnecessary austerity policies. Two general elections in 2016 failed to dislodge or strengthen his government.
It remained unstable even after a coalition with the centre-right Ciudadanos Party was formed. It survived only because the Socialist Party (PSOE) abstained in the parliamentary vote of confidence, an abstention motivated in part by anxieties that yet another election might strengthen its rival to the left, Podemos. Though rivals in mainstream Spain politics, Rajoy’s PP and PSOE shared an important characteristic. Neither had strong electoral support in the Catalonian 2015 regional election with the PP receiving 8.5 percent and PSOE 13 percent (and two-thirds going to regional parties).
With the sole exception of the Prime Minister of Belgium (who knows a bit about conflicts over regional autonomy), EU leaders have endorsed or assiduously ignored the emerging disaster in Spain. How is it possible that the leaders of a Union designed to bring peace and cooperation to Europe would make no attempt to mediate an unfolding disaster within one of its largest member states?’
link to socialeurope.eu
Meanwhile back in the deranged environment of Brexit- the news is not good. A campaign fuelled by misplaced grievances,unappealing sentiments and the perfect storm – a weak internal economic framework, weak labour and libdem opposition to the party that cause the economic crash in the first place and that laid the blame elsewhere. Tedious repetitive behaviours in a decaying political system. Scotland- time to get out and go it alone.
‘the Brexit campaign was able to mobilise grievances surrounding the visible failures of liberalisation of the labour market and the fiscal consequences of the inadequately regulated financial system to EU membership. Although there was no real evidence that EU membership was to blame in any direct way for these failures, the weakness of the Labour opposition meant that there was no strong progressive argument for addressing austerity and insecurity through social democracy, rather than economic nationalism. The Labour party had spent two decades freeing itself of a reputation for economic interventionism and had embraced free markets, economic openness and enthusiastic participation in the European project in the period before the financial crisis, leaving it with little credibility to suggest an alternative economic model.
Similarly, the Liberal Democrats, the most openly pro-European party, were held back by their involvement in the coalition government that had opted for austerity under Cameron. The key beneficiaries of this situation were UKIP and the Eurosceptic right of the Conservative Party, who could present themselves as offering the only viable alternative to austerity, insecurity and cultural threat…
The UK government would not be able to protect British goods and services from the competitive Europe-wide market even if it wished to, due to state aid rules and regulatory convergence. These competitive pressures have led to weaker companies failing and can be seen as driving a race to the bottom in social provision and labour market regulation in an attempt to maintain competitiveness. Similarly, freedom of movement of capital has exposed Britain to financial volatility and fuelled part of the housing boom which has destabilised the household economy of British families…
What is especially striking about the referendum and its aftermath is that the United Kingdom appears to be a country viscerally divided on fundamental issues of economic organisation, international relations and even the very survival of the UK state itself’
When Polanyi met Farage: Market fundamentalism, economic nationalism, and Britain’s exit from the European Union, Jonathan Hopkin
The British Journal of Politics and International Relations 2017, Vol. 19(3) 465 –478
We shouldn’t look to the US for support – the relationship’s not that special ;
‘in the medium and long terms, the most serious consequences—a weakening of the United Kingdom’s finance industry (its most successful sector), problems for its rejuvenated (if now mostly foreign-owned) automobile industry and a reduction in overseas investment—are probable. Arguably, these are the factors that have led to the sharp decline in the value of the UK pound since the Brexit vote…
Accordingly, US direct foreign investment (DFI) holdings in the United Kingdom were valued at $588 billion in 2014, accounting for 12% of total worldwide US DFI stock (Peterson Institute for International Economics, 2016). Corporations such as Ford, General Motors and Citi have a very visible presence in the United Kingdom, in the case of Ford having been present for more than 80 years. The major US financial institutions—J.P. Morgan Chase, Goldman Sachs, Citigroup, Morgan Stanley, Bank of America—employ about 41,000 people in London (Gandel, 2016). The UK and US economies are also linked in other ways: the value of total stock of DFI by UK corporations in the United States is worth upwards of $450 billion, or about 15% of total DFI stocks in the United States.
US corporations active in the United Kingdom are mostly in sectors threatened by the consequences of Brexit. Especially of concern are the United Kingdom’s probable loss of unfettered access to the Single European Market and passporting rights for financial institutions based in London. For example, 26% of US DFI in the United Kingdom is in finance and insurance.
US corporations engaged in manufacturing in the United Kingdom need to be able to operate supply chains that link it to the EU. Ford makes engines in South Wales that are used in automobiles assembled in continental Europe for the Single Market. If Brexit resulted in the significant restrictions to UK single-market access, US automobile manufacturers such as Ford have considerable experience in operating in many of the 27 remaining countries of the EU. The adverse consequences of Brexit could result in very speedy shifts in investment, illustrated perhaps by the reduction in planned investment in the Bridgend Engine Plant by Ford, from £181 million to £100 million (Bury, 2016)…
The long-term consequences of Brexit are largely unavoidable given the determination of the May government to leave the EU no matter how great the costs of doing so. These costs could be huge. They include not only economic decline but also the possible break-up of the United Kingdom following a second referendum on Scottish independence that Brexit has prompted…over the medium- to long-term Brexit will make the United Kingdom a less appealing country to the United States economically, diplomatically and even in terms of sentiment’
Brexit, Trump and the special relationship Graham K Wilson
The British Journal of Politics and International Relations 2017, Vol. 19(3) 543 –557
Re. the intellectual dishonesty of the Guardian and the press/media in general. It’s hard not to be a stooge of Anglo-American neo-liberaism, in the age of neo-liberal globalisation. Especially not when neo-liberal ideology is allowed to shape young minds, by shaping education policy and reforms.
Down with this sort of thing!
link to bris.ac.uk
ScottishPshyche @ 1.10 this afternoon.
RE.long post’s.
To misquote the Outlander author……
Usually the points are most carefully considered and they all seem necessary to clarify the subject!
Don’t ye think it true that some topics simply need a greater space in which to be explored?
Scroll on by if ye must but please don’t ask that the conversation be stymied.
link to totalpolitics.com
O/T Will the Ruth Davidson / Stephen Crabb affair be significant enough to fatally damage Davidson’s ambitions in Conservative politics? Read on:-
“The deepening of Westminster’s sexual harassment scandal has now seen 36 serving Tory MPs named on a ‘dossier of shame’ being circulated by junior party aides.
It is said to contain extraordinary and unverified allegations about various backbenchers, ministers – and two members of Theresa May’s current cabinet.
The list also alleges that a video is circulating of one Tory backbencher engaged in an extreme sex act with three men.
On Monday morning, only two of the 36 – Mark Garnier and Stephen Crabb – had been named. And fellow Tories are already turning their backs on their under-fire colleagues.
In particular, Scottish Tory leader Ruth Davidson now appears very keen to distance herself from the MP who she once called her “political soulmate”.
@Liz
Hi Liz, it is not all long posts – it is the posts that seem to say the same thing over and over again. I made it clear why I read posts. Others read everything – I don’t.
The daft thing is I really enjoy the long detailed posts with links or references. I enjoy reading others opinions when they make it clear why they say what they say. I just don’t like being told that I am stupid if I support Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP or that we are doing Independence all wrong, time and time again from the same posters.Or that we cannot have any solidarity or empathy with the Catalans.
It is demoralizing and I suppose that is the intention, to grind people down and make them feel they will never get what they want.
Anyway, I am out of here for a while. I will read and lurk but as far as posting, it is not the same anymore.
@Rock
@Robert Peffers
At the risk of sticking my neck in a slamming door, may I tentatively suggest you are both correct. In so far as you both hold diametrically opposed interpretations.
There is little need for either of you to exercise your respective positions in a psuedo court.
These positions have already been addressed, by eminent specialists and lawyers. The document I linked to @11:41am is where you will find it played out.
This document is almost entirely appended with caveats. In which it is recognised any of the myriad permutations considered may (may) be successfully argued.
The findings are based on what they consider to be the most likely outcome and in their opinion the best case legal argument.
Either of you may prove to be correct in the final reckoning of what is accepted as the de-jure position.
“Existing or holding a specified position by legal right”
That though, cannot prove or disprove what is the de-facto position. That is entirely a matter of acceptance.
“Existing or holding a specified position in fact but not necessarily by legal right”
Ultimitely, de-jure is what counts in the moment.
It does not neccessarily invalidate what someone believes as fact. That belief can turn to de-jure with enough time and power to write history.
De-facto and opposing de-jure situations can exist simultaneously. Historically some States/Countries have been de-facto independent and sovereign and de-jure subject to a royal house.
If you want contradictory infallibity to really mess your mind, try some Papal Bulls.
… runs like hell 😉
Iain Mhor @ 11.41 am
Well that was quite a read….
It is certainly…”an”…. interpretation of the situation.
But,and there’s always a But.
Nothing within that document would be or could be anything other than an interpretation of how the authors would want…and want being the key word here the narrative of the Treaty of the Union to be viewed in the event of a Yes vote.
So if this document is to be taken seriously by us Scots,(and it is us Scots who would need to believe it,in order for it to be accepted wisdom)my question would be…who benifits..?
And therein lies the tale!
Just incase ye were wonderin I am not convinced that this is anything other than what the “Commissioner’s “of this document indicated that they were looking for.
And there’s many a contributor on here who could potentially knock up the mirror image rebuttal to it…. Easily!!
A Theory that required the leap of faith that the. “Most successful Union in the whole wide world ever is base on a Treaty ….a signed TREATY that law’s have been written on fur 300 and odd year’s mind ye…..is no Treaty at all…..Aye right!
Go ahead and invalidate that Treaty make my day/year/life!
I seen a TV News Clip covering the Pride of Britain awards.
It showed the Tory Leader, Labour Leader, and the Lib Dem Leader coming on to present awards.
Can help that the 3rd Largest Party in what they call Britain
seems to have lost their Invitation???
SNP Leader must have been doing her day job while UK Propaganda continues to insult or ignore Scotland’s Party.
So what is “law”? What gives the UK Supreme Court moral authority? And what about a Scottish legal review of the Acts of Union?
link to jus.unitn.it
ScottishPshyche @ 11.08
Aw..don’t let it grind ye down.
There is for some the “let’s drive them away” agenda and there is for some…(well me) the unfortunate fact that my interest seems to require long winded post’s.
I wish I had the skill to make my point in a paragraph..but as I am sure you can tell by now I don’t.. LOL.
If ye have to step back…nae bother…but don’t go far my friend…. Scotland will need ye and right soon!
Pacman says:
31 October, 2017 at 10:27 pm
I see another British supporter is releasing a book of fiction soon. No not JK Rowling but the other peddler of tall tales and flights of fantasy…Gordon Brown LOL.
He’s one of the most catastrophic Labour nutters ever, unless he’s going to come clean and openly accept that he is one of the creators of the endless war on terror. Even if just this one Labour git does, so what.
Graun,
New York attack: eight killed in ‘act of terror’, says mayor – live updates
New York police say eight dead and numerous people injured”
and the exact same freakshow have nukes, in subs, based in Scotland, operated by probably the most unprofessional and irresponsible fuckwits you can pick.
Iain mhor says:
31 October, 2017 at 11:10 pm
….These positions have already been addressed, by eminent specialists and lawyers. The document I linked to @11:41am is where you will find it played out.
There’s a lot to read Iain, and cross reference many shallow suppositions with deeper evidence sometimes to be found elsewhere, but trying hard to be neutral and objective, I still find myself leaning towards “this is how Westminster perceives the constitutional issues affecting Scotland”. It seems awash with glaring presumptions, and frankly, ill informed arrogance.
For example: Item 2 of the Executive Summary.
“First of all, the status of Scotland before the union of 1707 would be of little or no relevance. In particular, the Treaty of Union, considered with or without the Acts of Union, does not currently sound as a treaty in international law.”
I disagree with every fibre, blood, and sinew. The constitutional status of Scotland before the Union is of paramount relevance. To cite one relevance amongst many, it is Scots Law and antiquity which defines both Scotland’s popular sovereignty, and England’s divine sovereignty, and thus properly bedevils the Union with irreconcilable absurdities which can only be negotiated with a very liberal pinch of salt and varying degrees of subjugation of Scottish interests.
And if the Act of Union does not sound as a Treaty in International Law, then what is the basis of the UK’s constitution, and how does it reconcile or circumvent Scotland’s inalienable sovereignty any more successfully than the Act of Union?
I have yet to read where and how the Westminster reconciles the “joining” of Scotland’s popular sovereignty with England’s divine sovereignty and administers that irreconcilable paradox through the expedient vehicle of Westminster’s Parliament.
The United Kingdom’s Constitution is a dog’s breakfast, and even after a little exposure to it, you find yourself pondering why it is such a dog’s breakfast, and the suspicion dawns that it is because a simpler, concise constitution could not help but reveal the glaring incompetence and incompatibility of joining one Nations popular sovereignty with a second Nations divine sovereignty.
The respective sovereignties of both Scotland and England might be archaic in their origin, but the founding principles have not altered, and are as relevant today as they were in the 14th Century. The whole edifice of the United Kingdom’s Constitution is built upon a lie, – the unsound presumption that the 1707 Parliament of Scotland was sovereign, and empowered to abdicate that sovereignty to Westminster.
That is wrong on three counts; First it is the people who sovereign in Scotland, no council of Lords, or parliament. Second, the Sovereignty of Scotland cannot be removed from the people, nor can it be transferred or delegated to a third party even if the people wanted it to be removed. Thirdly, it is materially impossible to join a popular sovereignty enshrined upon the people of Scotland with a wholly dissimilar divine sovereignty of English Parliamentary doctrine.
It does not matter how the Union has evolved through the ages, because the founding principles, the constitutional foundations of the United Kingdom are simply unsound and incompetent in law. The Act of Union professes to do a thing that cannot be done.
Given the two ingredients of UK Sovereignty are wholly and irreconcilably incompatible, the only possible resolution would be a confederal Union, similar to the EU, where collective Government is delivered by consensus, consensus alone, and the Sovereignty of component Nations, – their capacity to say no, is respected.
heedtracker @ 12.19
I live not far from the submarine base and in fact I can see the missiles going over the Erskine Bridge which I can see from my back windows.
I have spent most of my adult life worrying about Faslane and nuclear accidents.
ScottishPsyche @ 23:08,
I have found your occasional postings to be sensible and worthwhile, so please don’t be deterred for any reason and keep on posting.
We need the quiet and thoughtful voices far more than the shouty and the windbags.
I have spent most of my adult life worrying about Faslane and nuclear accidents.
Yes and on another other coast of Scotland, UKOK nuke subs lie at quaysides in Rosyth quietly rotting, because that is what having control of another country is all about, you dump your shite in it, sorry you pool and share resources across this precious union, as Crash Gordon liked to rant, 2014.
Breeks @ 12.37
Not forgetting that the Treaty of the Union IS the foundling document OF the United Kingdom Parliament.
If the Treaty has no “international” standing…..then!!
There is no Union between the two Kingdoms.
There has never been anything to….”Unite”….
Cause that old document from 1706 has no….how was it put?
Sound!!! In international law.
Well how stupid was every Country and their lawyers to sign up to anything with Westminster since 1707.
Mare tae the point if all those oil fields are rented out from a Westminster Parliament who had nae “international” right to do so there being nae internationally recognised Treaty…..well… lucky old Scotland.
Ye see sometimes acidemia disnay “Actually” think it through!
LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOUR, OR SCREW YOUR NEIGHBOUR.
The Independence debate – it’s not over.
IndyRef14 showed that Scotland is divided on the question of Independence. But the division is not straight down the middle. Scotland is not split. It is a fact that the percentage of convinced voters, either way, is around 70%. That leaves 30%, made up of don’t knows, too afraid, or didn’t vote. On the issue of Independence.
However, confusing the choice on the ballot paper, was another choice, not on the ballot paper, but in the background, about what kind of society do we want in Scotland. What kind of country do we want Scotland to be.
On this question I don’t think Scotland is divided at all, or not by very much . I would argue that this question has not been considered at all satisfactorily. I would also argue that not answering that question affected the way people voted.
Why, because the understanding of the huge differences between Scottish society and English society were not discussed at national level in the Independence campaign. In fact Westminster made attempts to establish in the Scottish electorate the belief that the people of Scotland and England are just the same.
They didn’t need to try too hard, not because Scots already knew, but because they knew they were very different but didn’t appreciate the political significance of the difference. The English did and knew it would be decisive at the polls, but the Scots didn’t because they were fixated on either Independence or the Union.
What is highly significant in the difference between Scotland and England is that England has changed enormously since Margaret Thatcher whom England largely followed while Scotland did not.
Thatcher destroyed socialism and established free market deregulated Capitalism in England to suit the rich, while Scotland held on to the socialist ideas of community, solidarity and a society for everyone.
Scotland held on to ‘love thy neighbour’ while Thatcher switched to ‘screw your neighbour’.
Had this difference in the two societies been highlighted by the Yes campaign the result of Indyref 14 would have been different.
This fundamental difference between Scotland and England remains but is being completely ignored and probably suppressed by Westminster for obvious political reasons.
To sum up. Many No voters will have assumed that Scotland is the same as England and that Independence means separating from others of the same family. But, the truth is we are very different. Not only are Scots not of the same family as Thatchers England, we are not even related.
They believe in ‘screwing your neighbour’ while Scots believe in ‘loving your neighbour.’
It goes without saying therefore that voting for Scottish Independence is to vote for a society which cares for everyone – and to be independent of England and a society in which people mostly just care about themselves and where the gap between rich and poor is among the highest in the world.
Yes, let’s have another referendum – to choose what kind of country we want to live in.
Haven’t had time to follow the thread for a couple of days really – sorry to go O/T
Just browsing the news and found this. Ineos has just completed the purchase of the Forties pipeline system from BP and is now one of the top 10 companies in the North Sea.
He’ll have over 40% of the N sea gas and oil plus Kinneil refinery for £199 million.
link to bbc.co.uk
Why does that ring alarm bells with me?
@Meg Merrilees
Ineos can’t threaten anyone with leaving or going anywhere
I heard a ‘constitutional expert’ on Radio 4 recently. He was suggesting that the lack of a written document protects the constitution from intellectual attack and legal challenge. He also suggested it is so open to interpretation that it would be hard to attack if you were finally able to pin it down.
P.S. What relationship does “Magna Carta” have to Scots Law, as it was being sold as having major significance for British ‘democracy’? I thought it was an entirely English affair.
@ Liz g at 1:17am …… “Treaty of the Union.”
I’m running behind between one thing and another such as hosting a 13th birthday party tonight where I was latterly used as a model, lol, and have had my hair dragged out of my head and mascara poked in my eye.
Anyway I’ve got individuals to respond to but that’ll have to wait. What I would like to comment on is the document that Iain Mhor posted on here. Very interesting so thanks for that Iain. I’ve just read through the 75 pages or whatever. Skimmed through a great deal relating to what country / region left who and much of the EU jargon because it no longer applies due to Brexit: Although there’s a couple of snippets there that could still be relevant for us, imo.
What struck me is exactly what you’ve just pointed out Liz and that is that if the Treaty of the Union means nought in International Law, it’s totally inconsequential, then what exactly binds the two Kingdoms? Nothing at all? And if they are right then we are still two independent countries / Kingdoms in the eyes of International Law. In other words they can’t have their cake and eat it. It’s one or the other. From a layperson’s point of view they are talking a load of old, probably Unionist, tommy rot highlighting in fact why we’ve never had a written Constitution. Too convoluted and disparate to do so. Maybe Robert could have a look at it, even the first few pages and let us know what he thinks? Better get off and clean up now. Aw naw!!!!
@Breeks 12:37
@LizG 11:15
I tend to agree with both of you in that it reeks of bias or at the least must raise the hackles of any Scot reading it. Dare I suggest even a No voter. I certainly refer them to exerpts. The reactions are interesting to say the least!
It’s can be weaponised for us.
To be fair, it is replete with caveats and does recognise the many counter arguments and even that they may have a validity. Their expertise is in proving (putting to the proof ie: testing) the best, compelling, legal argument they can muster. If that is biased for the commissioning government, so be it.
It’s the best they can do for them. Which is where power comes into play, as I have said previously (also re: @CameronB Brodie’s post) it’s the power to enforce a law, not neccessarily that a law is correct.
This is the narrative they believe they can enforce. It doesn’t mean it should be tacitly accepted.
Still, we have their arguments in black and white and it’s all they have. They helpfully remind us of the counter arguments too, in case we have forgotten or are unaware.
Petra @ 2.45
Firstly I hope that I am not too late…but you could not be more wrong.
You must not tidy up….up is where you must stick yer feet..
By order….by the sound of it ye deserve it.X
Anyhoo the whole time I was writing that post I tried very hard not to use the phrase “have yer cake and eat it”.
I see it as you do….if the Treaty is the foundation document of the UK then it has to by default have an international voice… otherwise the UK Parliament has only a domestic remit and no international “sound”….they can’t have it both ways.
IMHO…. this was produced and then punted by fluffy to see if it would fly in 2014.
And I am not all that sure that it’s appearance here is not a fishing expedition !!!
But either way it needed addressing!
@ Petra, Nana, Liz and Paula et al.
Scotland’s Ladies rock 😉
Iain Mhor @ 3.03
It’s actually irrelevant Iain,why on earth should the Indy ref 2 campaign pay any attention to that comfort blanket of a document?
It’s a Westminster wish list of the Union they think they have rather than the Union they actually have.
Don’t waste yer time man.
How Westminster views the Union only comes into play “After” the Yes vote.
Up until we make the decision it’s not their business.
Leave them to pay (hopefully through the teeth) for those opinions till the Scottish People tell them how it’s actually going to be with this Treaty malarkey!
William Wallace @ 3.57
And Scottish Gentleman Roll….this is why we’re aw Jock Tamsons Barins…X
heedtracker @ 1 November, 2017 at 12:19 am
Or accept he was one of the chief creators of the conditions that led to the worldwide banking crisis that he then claimed later to save the world from. Not to mention scare old pensioners and spin fables of the vow at the indy ref that he know wouldn’t be kept, amongst others.
To accept responsibility all of these is to touchy-feely for him.
A quick scan and skim seems to indicate Annex A of the Crawford and Boyle white paper of the UK Gov, their first and therefore their most important, in Feb 2012. Crawford & Boyle’s actual remit was to consider the position of the rUK as the continuing UK, which is why they discussed the other options and then dismissed them. But as it was their remit, then it has the position of a QC, not a judge, and therefore makes an argument, not a definitive statement.
Worth a read of this:
link to scottishconstitutionalfutures.org
“Dauvit Broun: By Publishing the Legal Opinion in Support of Their Position, Has the UK Government Created a Threat to rUK’s Position as a Continuing State? ”
My own argument is different. They may have weakened their case for claiming cUK status whereby they inherit all memberships, but what it did more importantly is hugely strengthen Scotland’s negotiating hand after a YES vote.
Why? Because we know what is important to them, and basically speaking, we don’t care if we inherit treaties, anywhere near as much as they do. New state status for us is fine. For them, it’s total disaster.
“A quick scan and skim seems to indicate Annex A … ”
… is being talked about in the thread!
No wonder many films are such utter rubbish, with stoney actors. A waste of the admission fee. Run by a bunch of perverts and their sycophants. Getting away with criminal activity for years.
A lawyer touting for business lays claims which have not been brought for years? A failure of the judiciary. A failure of the legal system of which they are a part. Total lack of self awareness. The legal system stands accused.
No mention from Brown about the millions killed and maimed in the illegal wars. Funded off the books. £Trns of debt. Funded by some Trade union leaders. The ‘international socialists’ starving, killing and maiming innocent vulnerable people. Causing the worst migration crisis in Europe since 11WW. No apology for that. Plus the raid on the Scottish resources to cover it up. Hidden under the Official Secrets Act. To hide their criminality. Starving and killing innocent vulnerable people. The Westminster unionists perverts. An international disgrace. An embarrassment.
@ Liz g says at 3:43 am … ”Petra … Firstly I hope that I am not too late…but you could not be more wrong. You must not tidy up….up is where you must stick yer feet. By order….by the sound of it ye deserve it.X Anyhoo the whole time I was writing that post I tried very hard not to use the phrase “have yer cake and eat it”. I see it as you do….if the Treaty is the foundation document of the UK then it has to by default have an international voice… otherwise the UK Parliament has only a domestic remit and no international “sound”….they can’t have it both ways. IMHO…. this was produced and then punted by fluffy to see if it would fly in 2014. And I am not all that sure that it’s appearance here is not a fishing expedition !!! But either way it needed addressing!”
Thank goodness I never saw your post Liz (and Breeks earlier) or we would have been ‘constitutional’ blethering all night, lol. How boring is that? As it is I did a quick run round and cleared the ‘surface’ mess! There’s more below, much more lol, but it’ll have to wait because I’ve got to leave early (ier) this morning and I’ve just had 3 1/2 hours sleep. 30 minutes short of my usual.
I see that yesindyref2 has left a link that should clarify the situation to some extent from a ‘Scottish perspective’.
From that article: ”The obvious question to ask is whether the UK government thinks it is acceptable that, in the eyes of international law, the country they govern is either England writ large, or an entity which has erased both England and Scotland…..
”By promoting the legal opinion in a public forum, the UK government has accepted either that England as well as Scotland does not exist, or that the UK is simply England by another name. But they can change this. The trouble is that, if they do, they will have to recognise that both Scotland and the rest of the UK would both become new states in the event of Scottish independence.”
link to scottishconstitutionalfutures.org
Firstly I would like to know what Queenie, Queen of the (sovereign) Scots, not Scotland, thinks of the whole kit and caboodle. We should ask her and she should answer because she gets paid plenty for doing very little else for Scotland, imo.
And it would also be extremely interesting to see what Professors Crawford and Boyle would draw up now in light of Brexit.
Petra , the domesticate advise from Liz is second to none- my ironing was instantly halved !
OT has anyone else seen any rumours about a certain Knight of the realm and defence secretary being scraped off a Russian lady ‘spy’ while in his cups?
Same chap has made an apology to a journalist for putting his hand on her knee – an unnecessary apology according to the charming journalist.
Just wondered if that apology was made in order to aniseed the scent trail to the more damning tale.
Before I go. From the yesindyref2 link. Think Brexit.
link to law.cam.ac.uk
link to bbc.co.uk
@ Ian Mhor
Hi I’ve been reading through this long comments section and was surprised at your (perhaps devil’s advocate, but come on, Sevco?) statements regarding Scotland and its existence and recognition or otherwise as a country.
While it is virtually impossible to find the original text online, you need look no further than the UK’s own admission of such back in 1945 when it joined the UN. Each member submits a brief description of itself, the UK’s is approximately thus:
A constitutional monarchy comprising two countries, a principality and a province.
This has never been amended, despite Leeanne Wood’s success in proving that Wales cannot in any real sense be a principality; it should be noted that being a principality does not prevent nation status also. Even today, the official title of Luxembourg is a Duchy, and a duke is “lower” than a prince 😉
However, the key point is that it is quite plainly obvious the two ‘countries’ are Scotland and England, and so such a record conceding as much held by the UN is surely indisputable evidence that Scotland is a country which merely has to undo the Treaty of Union to regain its full sovereignty.
Links
link to firstminister.gov.scot
link to news.gov.scot
link to scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk
link to helensburghsnp.scot
EU backing Spanish govt is defending the indefensible” says former @theSNP MP @_PaulMonaghan as Spanish PM sacks Catalan government.
link to twitter.com
Less fluff! More fire!
link to indyref2.scot
link to businessforscotland.com
link to rbs.postach.io
link to thoughtcontrolscotland.com
‘We’re fed up of nuclear submarines rotting in Rosyth’ blasts MP
link to archive.is
Joint statement by the European Commission and the Department for Exiting the European Union
link to europa.eu
People still don’t understand Tories are proud to have cut off access to justice for the poor
link to archive.is
link to anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk
link to inews.co.uk
link to uk.businessinsider.com
For sale: one Brexit, wheels falling off, loads of miles on the clock
link to archive.is
Will not archive
link to independent.co.uk
http://www.irishnews.com/news/2017/10/31/news/gove-announces-40m-grants-scheme-in-belfast—but-local-farmers-need-not-apply-1175398/
link to thelondoneconomic.com
Catalonia’s president in exile has set up a new website (since Spain shut down the old one)
link to president.exili.eu
@ Ian Mhor
Hi I’ve been reading through this long comments section and was surprised at your (perhaps devil’s advocate – but Sevco? Come on!) statements regarding Scotland and its existence and recognition or otherwise as a country.
While it is virtually impossible to find the original text online, you need look no further than the UK’s own admission of such back in 1945 when it joined the UN. Each member submits a brief description of itself, the UK’s is approximately thus:
A constitutional monarchy comprising two countries, a principality and a province.
This has never been amended, despite Leeanne Wood’s success in proving that Wales cannot in any real sense be a principality; it should be noted that being a principality does not prevent nation status also. Even today, the official title of Luxembourg is a Duchy, and a duke is “lower” than a prince 😉
However, the key point is that it is quite plainly obvious the two ‘countries’ are Scotland and England, and so such a record of the UK conceding as much, held by the UN, is surely indisputable evidence that Scotland is indeed a country, and a country which merely has to undo the Treaty of Union to regain its full sovereignty.
Medium term, I genuinely suspect some the Brexiteers (along with many, hiding behind them) are actually wanting to start new wars in Europe.
At the moment in history when THE WHOLE WORLD NEEDS TO DISARM ITSELF..BREXIT SHUNS TREATIES AND ECONOMIC HARMONY.
Dare I ask the question…
Are we in fragile tentative agreement that our Independence movement in Scotland is currently perhaps “overfocussed” upon democracy to the exclusion of other vitally important issues, and that a wider strategy which sees Holyrood addressing the issue of Constitutional Sovereignty would be a progressive, welcome, and long overdue development?
If we are, then I promise you, your lines of communication with the SNP are better than mine.
But thank you Catalonia. It is bittersweet recognition I do not doubt, but the undermining of your democracy by Spain’s Constitutional Sovereignty could perhaps be the wake up call that Scotland has been sorely needing.
Great links Nana! Cornflakes and BBC r4 vote tory Today show right the noo, its the William Hague vote tory show, Today, tory Today, like a giant party political broadcast for the Conservative party, and everything is UK tory groovy, with the tory creeps at the beeb.
And here is today’s No.11 for you Petra…
11. The SNP should Commission a line by line authoritative debunking of Westminster’s Annex A
Opinion: Referendum on the Independence of Scotland – International Law Aspects, augment the text to point out the constitutional defects which are irreconcilable with Scotland’s popular sovereignty, and then send copies of the articles to Juncker, Verhofstadt, Barnier, Tusk, and of course Theresa May.
Do that, and I’ll be delighted to lead today’s chorus of SNPgood.
Breeks 8:16 am
You wrote “Are we in fragile tentative agreement that our Independence movement in Scotland is currently perhaps “overfocussed” upon democracy to the exclusion of other vitally important issues …………”
I am not sure who you meant by “we” Breeks. Did you mean those that are not prepared to accept the democratic outcome of an open, free and fair referendum and would seek to force their minority views on the majority by some means?
Woohoo! Flipper’s back on the scene like a sex machine. Scotland must be the most shafted region, by red and blue tory shysters, in the history of tory shyster region shafting. Just another day at the beeb Scotland gimp coalface.
link to bbc.co.uk
Lord Darling backs Holyrood immigration powers
By Douglas Fraser
Business/economy editor, Scotland
31 October 2017
From the section Scotland politics
Well ref the “Union” It is high time that Scottish intellectuals
should be focusing on the Scottish perspective on said union.
Surely we have some who would be willing to state our legal view of what was an enforced union, but also a bought and corrupt one.
There are documents that show this corruption and what the betrayers of Scotland received that proved the corruption took place. So is the english view of the union the correct one or simply a self interest and bias view, discounting the criminality involved in the first place. Was the “union” legal at all?
So all the legal arguments, are they a smoke screen for illegal acts, in order to subjugate a nation, can that be called a union at all? Things like this need a legal perspective from a Scottish legal and International legal position.
When you really look into the background of all this, you have to question if it was ever legal, something just covered by smoke and mirrors to benefit england.
Craig hitting the naily squarely on the head again – re the Guardian’s attempts to play down support for independence in Catalonia:
link to craigmurray.org.uk
I am not sure who you meant by “we” Breeks. Did you mean those that are not prepared to accept the democratic outcome of an open, free and fair referendum and would seek to force their minority views on the majority by some means?
“We” get it sensibled, in the UKOK zone of Brexit planet toryboy, Scots get one referendum and that’s our lot.
Why do high toryboy’s like you think you can dictate democracy in your Scotland region sensibledave? other than the fact your BBC gimp network brainwashes you all into genuinely believing you can dictate like this, sensibled, you pompous buffoon.
Oddly enough sensibledave, buffoon is a 18th century name for pirate, tory the old name for cattle rustler.
Breeks, aww you’re alright pet =)
I’ll do it.
SNP GOOD 🙂
SNP REALLY REALLY GOOOOOD !!!
🙂 🙂 🙂
heed tracker
lord Darling, LOLZ, after Labour opposed control of Immigration in Holyrood. Presumably he means Immigration for Scotland controlled by Westminster.
He’s a truly pompous wee shit.
Petra @ 7.34am and Liz @ 3.43am
A rebuttal of Professors Crawford and Boyle:
link to journalonline.co.uk
The case for the Treaty of Union as a treaty within international law:
link to journalonline.co.uk
Both good articles and very clearly setting out their respective arguments.
He’s a truly pompous wee shit.
He is but he’s clearly being kept in the UKOK mix up here, by the beeb gimp network, for very fundamental UKOK reasons.
Tory gal Donalda Mac might say that Lord Flipper’s being kept on the backburner but that thing by Fraser is classic beeb gimp tory puffery, a tory UKOK tory double whammy, entirely unelected red tory Lord arse, teamed up with the most tory corrupt public haha broadcasters in the west.
How frightfully British, beeb gimps and Lord Darling, bettertogether, pooling and sharing tory propaganda, across their Scotland region.
Nana @ 8.06 am Thank you =)
But oh my.
I thought the inews video of Tory MP Michael FABRICANT was a spoof !!!
The name Fabricant for a start.
Then, the sort of Borris look alike saying really spoofy things like ‘or if everyone was sloshed’!!!
Really ?!!!
That guy is real ???
Help.
Breeks says:
1 November, 2017 at 8:29 am
And here is today’s No.11 for you Petra…
11. The SNP should Commission a line by line authoritative debunking of Westminster’s Annex A
Opinion: Referendum on the Independence of Scotland – International Law Aspects.
Hmmmm. Now I wonder. Say we wanted to get the ball rolling sooner… Where could we find a fearless reporter with a penchant for investigative debunking of Unionist texts? Someone with razor sharp perception and a scythe-like turn of phrase to cut through longwinded verbosity and cut to the chase. Maybe somebody who has influence, a sizeable following, and presence, maybe they have already written a type of “sovereignty for dummies” article in the past, but maybe needs to refresh it and use it as an opportunity to drive a bulldozer through 45 pages of Annex A opinion… You know! Somebody we can trust who is pretty good dealing with grizzly bears and Bullseye hairstyles.
link to gov.uk
Come on Rev Stu. You know you want to. Look! Line 1of the opening Executive Summary is already trying to sweep Scottish Sovereignty under the carpet… Baaaad Westminster.
And Mr Peffers, I’m still convinced there’s a constitutionally enlightening Phantom Power Film still to be made that’s got your name all over it.
Capella says:
1 November, 2017 at 8:58 am
Craig hitting the naily squarely on the head again – re the Guardian’s attempts to play down support for independence in Catalonia:
If the Channel 4 news toryboys last night are right, Catalonian indy is now all over. Its just a case of Spanish gov jailing and fining all the vile seps of Catalonia, especially UK toryboy’s vilest of vile seps, Puigdemont. Beeb gimp network says Puigdemont is “sacked” and rightly so, if you’re a beeb gimp.
All of this just shows how neo fascism in the teamGB media happily farts along, stamping out any and all change. But overall, its probably the best outcome for the future of Scottish democracy, either in or outwith English control, BBC led tory media attack propaganda wise.
Its a selfish attitude but if Spain can stamp out Catalonian indy, for say a UKOK generation, relatively peacefully, massed ranks of beeb gimps have nothing much to terrorise Scots like us with, as in “look at what happened in Spain vile Scots seps, do you want this to happen to you, UK gov only has SO much patience…with its own vile seps.”
Thanks for the links Nana.
The one about the MP’s sleaze and sexual exploitation got me thinking about another Michael – he of the apology to journalist for touching her knee fifteen years ago. There is another rumour circulating about the same lordly , lardy chappie having to be scraped off a Russian lady ‘spy’ at some drunken hooley.
Some might think it cynical to suggest that the concentration in the media on the ‘knee ‘incident is a means of aniseeding the scent of more damaging revelations – I couldn’t possibly comment and have never been one to spread rumours.
I love the way drunkenness is used as an excuse for assaulting folk – time to close those free bars in the HoC and HoL and elect adults capable of restraint and knowing their limits.
Three cheers Legerwood 9:10am Need to read those articles a few times and digest properly.
Can you see it yet folks? A fully mobilised YES organisation with a fresh narrative, new material, well informed concise literature, and properly rehearsed narrative all about the constitutional story of Scotland… Not to detract from 2014’s democratic arguments, but to firmly underscore them.
For the first time in what seems an age, I am beginning to feel the quickening.
@Ghillie
He’s real enough Ghillie, just one of the ‘so full of entitlement’ brigade and I believe he is one of those on ‘the list’
But hey whatever he has done will be fine and dandy, after all he might have been a bit ‘sloshed’ at the time.
He’s a bit of a Boris lookalike right enough. a real charmer Yuk!
Heedtracker – can’t wait until sensible calls back with his so original “heedie”. Exceptionalism does funny things to the heed though. Has sensible forgotten the vote 70s to join the EC, which they, our betters have decided they have now voted to get out of – regardless of cost? I bet exceptionalism is the reason they can’t remember the misery they caused around the globe for hundreds of years. But, to be fair, they can remember winning the 2nd world war – indeed all wars!
Tomorrow is the 50th Anniversary of the Winnie Ewing by-election win at Hamilton. Having scanned the TV schedules I cannot see any programme about it. The by-election is slowly fading from my memory, I thought a mention would have been made considering what has happened since then, but alas no.
Nana @ 8.03 am
Ok. Now really pretty angry.
Gove has finally confessed ( contradicting his assurances to Fergus Ewing in July) to Ian Blackford that there is a short fall of £160,000,000 in the ‘Convergence’ funding from the EU, allocated specifically to Scottish farmers was instead spent on farmers in England, Wales and NI.
Of the £190million allocated to Scotland, Scottish farmers received only £30m.
Only just over 1/6th of the funds the EU made available to struggling Scottish farms actually reached its intended destination. Funny that.
Ian Blackford’s letter is excellent.
Could the UK government be taken to court for misappropriation of funds, aka stealing?
Michael Gove and his rancid lot must have worn clear through the seat of their breeks with all the squirming they have to do.
Horrid wee dispicable contemptable rabble.
Re The List. Clearly much of that was consensual adult behaviour and of no interest beyond the peoples’ immediate family and circle.
However … ‘Inappropriate’ …. how would some of these people know what was appropriate, normal, accepted, or expected? They come from a parallel universe of privilege and single gender boarding schools. They are/were members of the oddest ‘clubs’. For them, the concept of entitlement is lifestyle guide.
It doesn’t surprise me that they haven’t a clue how to behave around normal folks.
Heedtracker and Capella, I really do believe that Catalonia is going to pull through all of this and be properly Independent and properly recognised Worldwide.
The UK government, among others, will have seriously rotten egg left all over its face, but that’s a look and stink they seem to embrace.
@JWT 9.44pm last night.
My deepest apologies if you misinterpreted my comment re puidgemont being “sacked”.
The use of the word “sacked” was in context from the point of view of Rajoy’s actions.
Of course he and his government were deposed, as you correctly state.
I assumed my view was obviously, that “sacking” was an illegal act, in the context of my wider post !!
There is absolutely nothing i have ever posted, to suggest i am not full square behind the Democratically elected Catalan government.
I have never posted (nor spoken, nor thought) a pro Britnat/unionist, view in my life.
Breeks @ 9.40 am
Glad to hear you ‘are beginning to feel the quickening’ 🙂
Rushing back up to read Legerwood’s links @ 9.10 am.
What a recommendation =)
Marcia @ 10.01 am
‘Tomorrow is the 50th Anniversary of the Winnie Ewing By-election victory at Hamilton’ 🙂
I shall raise a glass to our very own Madame Ecosse =)
Ghillie says:
1 November, 2017 at 10:14 am
Heedtracker and Capella, I really do believe that Catalonia is going to pull through all of this and be properly Independent and properly recognised Worldwide.
Hope you’re right but its hard to see how though.
For Scots like us, its better that Catalonia indy is stamped out as peacefully as possible now and by one of the most fascist govs in the EU today, with the EU more than happy to back Spain’s gov, to do whatever it likes, because its all legal.
Our own neo fascist beeb will brush everything in Catalonia under the carpet asap, and maybe even Gibraltar will not be troubled by vile sep crushing Spanish gov, for a generation, as a thank you, from a grateful Spain, and all the BBC led support.
Remember, the beeb gimp network leads a three pronged UK gov/media monstering…destroy Scottish democracy, the SNP, Scotland itself, as a nation state.
@Breeks says: 1 November, 2017 at 12:37 am:
I’m not going to go through all that with a fine tooth comb, Breeks but just make one telling observation.
The little matter of differentiation being supposed between the English and the Scottish sovereignty.
There is factually a difference but it favours Scottish sovereignty.
All sovereignty originally derives from the human perception that sovereignty is conferred upon a human on Earth by God is the entire basis of, “The Divine Right of Kings”, that was accepted throughout all of Christendom.
Now God’s only accepted PONTIFF on Earth was the Pope in Rome. So allow me to quote the definition of that word, “pontiff”:-
link to en.wikipedia.org
Now that means that in Christendom, (roughly all Europe), all sovereignty derives from God who selected his Earthly Pontiff as the Pope in Rome and also, by selecting who was born in a Royal Womb, all monarchs who thus acquired, “The Divine Right of Kings”. Bear in mind that prior to the reformation there was only one Christian Church.
So the point is clearly that this differentiation of Scotland’s perceive, “Popular”, Sovereignty against the English perceived, “Devine Sovereignty”, is utter claptrap in so many, many ways, even if we accept that a God does exist.
Let’s get this into perspective:
In the first place there is absolutely no doubt that Scotland’s sovereignty is actually far more provable as, “Divine”, than that of England. It comes directly from the Pontiff in Rome who accepted the Declaration of Arbroath that contains the basis of Scots law that conferred sovereignty upon the People of Scotland.
As for the English claim the same acceptance of the Declaration of Arbroath that established Scotland’s divine right as an independent Kingdom in the eyes of God stems from the Holy Roman Se’s falling out with the English Monarchy over the behaviour of the English Monarchy that set itself up as the leader of the English Christian church.
So just what is the evidence that the English Monarchy actually had divine right of kings in the eyes of God’s pontiff on Earth? If the pontiff is God’s representative on Earth and on matters of faith, is thus infallible, where does that leave England’s Divine Right?
That whole long screed of gobbledegook claiming England’s Divine Right but Scotland’s popular sovereignty is, (I’m at risk of outraging someone here), utter pish! (Thank you Mr Shakespeare).
You couldn’t make this stuff up.
But they can and often do.
Controversial Wings Over Scotland blogger facing no further action over harassment claims
link to archive.is
Breeks @ 9.40 am
Should point out that the links are in reverse chronological order. In other words read the second one first
Deduct 0.25 cheers for my slip.
Ghillie
The issue of the misappropriation of the Scottish hill farmers payments by the UK government is worse than you may think. It was only through the work of the SNP Scottish Government that the increase even came from the EU.
This is how Scotland will be treated on all things. The more we do the more the UK government will take.
Ghillie, Marcia: heraldnomore announced recently that the book of Madame Ecosse’s triumph, Hamilton 1967, by James Mitchell is just out.
@LizG
I don’t really think it’s irrelevant, I pay attention to it on the principle of “Know thine enemy” As I’ve said, I found it handy to show exerpts to No voters or the neutral as “Here’s what they think of you” But, yes I can see perhaps what you mean, in that focussing on it allows them to have set the narrative as it were. Chosen the field of battle.
There are counter narratives (as @Legerwood and @Petra posted)
@AZ I trust you understand it is not that me who holds these views or I’m arguing for them, I’m just the messenger and interpreting what I think their views are. Yeah, perhaps Sevco was a clumsy metaphor, I thought it was OK at the time, just trying to simplify things.
As for Country/ Kingdom/ Nation, there is nothing precluding de-jure & de-facto conditions being simultaneous. That is the easiest way I argue against Unionist points without being bogged down in minutiae.
Ah wunner if that member of the Cluggie Chamber David Mundell will be asking Betty the 2nd to give up her Queenie of Scots title , after all who would want to be ah queen of a Country that doesn’t exist .
Or why does a Country need a Secretary of State for Scotland if said Scotland/State doesn’t exist, mibbee’s weil git the answers from those Professors in the payment of the Scottish office Propaganda Unit .
@Az says: 1 November, 2017 at 8:02 am:
“Hi I’ve been reading through this long comments section and was surprised at your (perhaps devil’s advocate, but come on, Sevco?) statements regarding Scotland and its existence and recognition or otherwise as a country.”
Oh! Dear!
Not again?
For Heaven’s sake, Az, you entirely miss the point.
Read the words – the thing under discussion is called –
THE UNITED KINGDOM
A KINGDOM is a MONARCHY it is not necessarily a country. Not unless you think that the large number of countries that Her Majesty is the Queen of are all one big, spread out, country.
The United Kingdom is a bipartite union of the equally sovereign KINGDOMS of Scotland and England. It is not a union of the countries. If it were it would be a union of Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
Thus then a quadratic union of countries and there are only two Kingdoms with signatures on the Treaty of Union not four countries.
However, the whole problem is that Westminster has appointed itself as the de facto, unelected as such, parliament of the country of England and has proceeded to devolve English powers to what it treats as three dominions of England.
Just to make that very, very clear. Here is a definition of, “dominion”:-
dominion: noun: dominion; plural noun: dominions
1. – sovereignty or control.
synonyms: supremacy, ascendancy, dominance, domination, superiority, predominance, pre-eminence, primacy, hegemony, authority, mastery, control, command, direction, power, sway, rule, government, jurisdiction, sovereignty, suzerainty, lordship, overlordship.
2. – the territory of a sovereign or government.
synonyms: dependency, colony, protectorate, territory, province, outpost, satellite, satellite state.
Heedy Wrote:
“Why do high toryboy’s like you think you can dictate democracy in your Scotland region sensibledave?”
No Heedy. As usual, your tiny, one track, mixed up brain of self interest has got everything completely a**e about face.
I am only interested in democracy. I am only interested in people being given the right to express their democratic will and then for that democratic will to be upheld – whatever the outcome. JUST LIKE IT HAPPENED IN THE SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE REFERENDUM!
How you attempt to spin it round the other way is even more bonkers than your usual “everybody in the UK is BAAAAd, except SNP voters” tripe.
The difference between the situation in Catalonia and Scotland is that (and I can’t believe I am having to remind you of this) there was a fully sanctioned referendum supported by the Parliament of UK. It was the people of Scotland Heedy – not me, not red tories, blue tories, pink tories, UKBRITNATS or whatever other fake bogeymen you attempt to conjure up – that voted No by a majority.
You need to win those people over with your “winning” arguments and charm. The only people that have ever voted against Scottish Indpendence – are SCOTS, you numbskull!
Legerwood @ 9.10 am
Phew. Read through those very interesting articles on legal aspects of the Treaty of Union. (in the wrong order, no matter) I learned ALOT. Thank you =)
Basically Crabbe and Boyle are wrong 🙂
Thank you Tinto Chiel @ 11.11 am
James Mitchell’s new book ‘Madame Ecosse’s triumph, Hamilton 1967’ will be a great Christmas present for my Dad 🙂
…then once Dad’s read it I’ll borrow it =)
Brian Powell @ 10.55 am
‘The issue of the misappropriation of the Scottish hillfarmers payments by the UK government is worse than you may think.’
Aye well. There will be no looking back with regret.
And ‘It was only through the work of the SNP Scottish Government that the increase even came from the EU.’
How seriously worse off would we all be now if we hadn’t elected our SNP Government for the last ten years?
Scotland 🙂 Not so stupid after all =)
You are so right Brian. The UK government will always take. Scotland HAS to shed that toxic leech.
You need to win those people over with your “winning” arguments and charm. The only people that have ever voted against Scottish Indpendence – are SCOTS, you numbskull!
How very English toryboy of you sensible d. If only you could have your man horsewhip me.
Once again,
You say sensibledave, “I am not sure who you meant by “we” Breeks. Did you mean those that are not prepared to accept the democratic outcome of an open, free and fair referendum and would seek to force their minority views on the majority by some means?”
Everyone accepts the democratic outcome of Scots ref1 sensible. What you’re trying to do, along with massed ranks of planet toryboy gimps, just like you, is block any more Scots refs, permanently.
Because you won 2014, that’s it, this precious union is saved, no more refs for vile seps in your Scotland region, who will not accept the democratic result in 2014, because toryboys have decided that is Scottish independence settled, for a UKOK lifetime at least.
Is it sensible d?
Tory twits like you really sensibledave, totally dominate Scotland’s msm, all led by BBC Scotland and they are ofcourse entirely focused on getting a red or blue tory First Minister in to Holyrood.
Once you toryboy creeps in England do get say, Scottish First Minister Colonel Ruth Davidson or even an FM Anas, then you can sit back, relax and watch UKOK unionism permanently block Scots ref2 and totally destroy Scotland’s nascent democracy.
Hope that’s a bit clearer for you sensible d.
@heedtracker says: 1 November, 2017 at 10:29 am:
“Heedtracker and Capella, I really do believe that Catalonia is going to pull through all of this and be properly Independent and properly recognised Worldwide.
Hope you’re right but its hard to see how though. “
I already explained what is likely to happen.
The entire raison dêtre of the EU, Council of Europe, United Nations, et al. is to protect the rights of their respective citizens and/or their member nations.
In the final analysis the citizens of Catalonia are citizens of the semi-autonomous state of Catalonia, citizens of the (now), Constitutional Monarchy of Spain, Citizens of the European Union, citizens of states signatory to the Council of Europe’s treaty and members, of a member state. of the United Nations.
Every one of which organisations has the raison dêtre of protecting the Human Rights of their members and each one of them, including the Constitutional Monarchy that is Spain must uphold the treaties they signed up to of protecting their citizens and member states human rights.
If they fail to do so they fail their very raison dêtre.
In plain language all those organisations ONLY exist to protect their individual members and if they do NOT attempt to do so the cease to have a reason to exist.
At this moment we have had certain official of all those bodies making noises they couldn’t actually have polled their members about. That is they are stating their own views and not the views of the organisation they are supposed to speak for.
To date, and I’m ready to be corrected, only a United Nations spokesperson has spoken on behalf of the citizens rights of the Catalonian citizens right to self determination. I believe, when the actual members give their spokespersons their feed back then they must defer to their rank and file members and retract their own personal opinions. Failure to do so will see them unseated.
The fact is that if they do not the organisations they speak on behalf of cease to have a reason to exist.
It is a bit like a Westminster Parliament losing the confidence of the house of Commons or the confidence of the electorate.
When they do lose that confidence the Westminster Government falls.
That’s democracy for you – even if, in UK terms – democracy is a rather nebulous term.
Robert Peffers says:
1 November, 2017 at 10:52 am
@Breeks says: 1 November, 2017 at 12:37 am:
I’m not going to go through all that with a fine tooth comb, Breeks but just make one telling observation…
I hear you Robert, and I am more than happy to be proved wrong or misguided wherever the case for Scottish Independence benefits for it. I am just a layman.
But like the joke about the two African tribesman stumbling across a lion. One starts to put on his running shoes. The other man laughs and say, “You’ll never outrun a lion wearing those!”. The first man points out that it isn’t the lion he needs to outrun.
So too with Scottish Sovereignty. It doesn’t have to be a perfect catch-all Constitutional solution, just as long as it presents stronger case than the other guy. We win, they lose, rejoice!!
The other thing I would say, is that I can recognise the religious context and origins of all manner of medieval society. (It struck me just yesterday that Scotland in 1707 was still content to be burning witches like Lilias Adie), and no doubt a great deal of medieval manuscripts and treaties would not translate at all well into modern society. Our standards have changed. But nevertheless, that doesn’t necessarily invalidate the legitimacy of an agreement somewhat coloured by its archaic context, it just means we need to make allowances for the standards of the day.
Does it matter that the “International Recognition” of 14th Century Europe was entirely ecclesiastical and divine? The Nation was recognised by the appropriate standards of the day, the defeated Christian adversaries south of the Border, and eyes and ears of God’s man on Earth. Leave out the Christian context of the day, and what you have is England individually relinquishing all claim over Scotland in perpetuity, and the International Community recognising Scotland as a sovereign independent Nation.
That’s the recognition which recognised, and in law, created Scottish Sovereignty. From that date forward, Scottish Sovereignty exists until something happens to make it cease to exist. It is not therefore the origin of Scotland’s recognised and undisputed 18th Century sovereignty which warrants forensic scrutiny, surely it is the dubious mechanism of Union which lays claim to Scottish Sovereignty sought to distort and improperly subjugate that sovereignty. That’s the constitutional juncture which warrants the forensic examination and redress. It’s the Act of Union we should examine and shred, not the Declaration of Arbroath and it’s Constitutional recognition.
That’s democracy for you – even if, in UK terms – democracy is a rather nebulous term.
It is Rabbie. Ultimately, Catalonia is almost certainly not going to become a nation state. But the lesson’s are pretty clear for Scots like us.
If there is no Edinburgh agreement 2 for Scots ref2, UK gov will impose direct rule from London, no matter what the result.
As you can see from sensibledave’s toryboy rage, we Scots have had our once in a gen referendum, it was decided to keep this precious UK and that is that, for a UK lifetime.
Its the toryboy doublewhammy. If Scots hold ref2, its anti democratic, with or without UK gov agreeing to it and it will be direct London rule, without them agreeing.
Even if Scots vote No again, UK gov will not tolerate anymore from its Scotland region. High stakes, in teamGB.
Heedy
You wrote “Because you won 2014, that’s it, this precious union is saved, no more refs for vile seps in your Scotland region, who will not accept the democratic result in 2014, because toryboys have decided that is Scottish independence settled, for a UKOK lifetime at least.”
Your twisted brain keeps blurting out complete, baseless lies, yes, lies, Heedy.
1. I didn’t win. I didn’t “win” because I didn’t take part!
2. I have no views on Scottish Independence other than I want the issue decided democratically such that the majority (whichever way they vote) get what they want.
3. Your bunker mentality (and as you demonstrate almost every time you write) leads you to some conclusion that those that didn’t vote “Yes” (regardless of the fact that they couldn’t vote!) – are against Scottish Independence.
4. Because you didn’t get the result you wanted from the democratic process, you look to lay blame and you do that by blaming everyone but yourself.
5. If you want further evidence of your ridiculous “victimhood” just reread your last comment again. Again, you rote “Because you won 2014 (NO I DIDNT), that’s it, this precious union is saved (THE UNION WAS ALWAYS GOING TO CONTINUE WITH OR WITHOUT SCOTLAND), no more refs for vile seps in your Scotland region (NOT MY VILE SCOTTISH REGION HEEDY I AM JUST JOE SOAP THAT LIVES IN ANOTHER REGION), who will not accept the democratic result in 2014 (AT LEAST YOU GOT THAT RIGHT), because toryboys (YOU MEAN PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN SCOTLAND) have decided that is Scottish independence settled, for a UKOK lifetime at least (AS I UNDERSTAND IT, THE PRIME MINISTER OF THE ELECTED GOVERNMENT REPRESENTING THE WHOLE OF THE UK SAID “NOT NOW” IE NOT JUST 2 YEARS AFTER THE LAST REFERENDUM, NOT WHEN THE MAJORITY OF SCOTTS JUST VOTED FOR PARTIES WHOSE MANIFESTO COMMITMENT WAS TO STAY IN THE EU AND NOT WHILST THE NEGOTIATIONS THAT WILL HAVE IMPORTANT AND LASTING AFFECTS ON THE LIVES OF 65 MILLION CITIZENS OF THE WHOLE OF THE UK ARE TAKING PLACE.
Get yer head out of you a**e Heedy and try and come up with something thoughtful and original …. alternatively, and more likely, you could just do your normal useless, stupid, UKOK, BRITNAT, Red tory, BLue Tory routine that plays only to an increasingly small number of contributors even here on Wings. Can’t wait ….
sensibledave says:
You won sensible. Why you’re hysterical, probably says much more about English rule today. But you did win and we do live in toryboy world. We just to have to accept that and shut up sensible d.
No chance:D
I wish more folks were aware of what they are almost certainly about to loose as a consequence of Brexit.
Scottish independence is essential if Scottish cultural values are to survive to the next century, IMHO.
link to liberty-human-rights.org.uk
The Human Rights Act
link to equalityhumanrights.com
link to academic.oup.com
@ Nana, thanks as ever! good to hear the Rev’s in the clear wi the Polis! 🙂
heedtracker 1:31 pm
You wrote more c**p “You won sensible……”
Tell me Heedy, are you only completely stupid here on Wings or is it the real you? Are you a complete idiot all of the time? Can you actually read? Do you have some power to read a person’s mind (even if it is to read it wrongly) so that you know that “I won” even though I absolutely know that I didn’t. You do know that just be repeating a lie over and over – that it doesn’t make it true?
Hey Ho!
The final arbiter on the issue of national statehood is the UN and its judicial body the ICJ. Indeed, that is the only one possible since it is the only one where the potential exists for unbiased judgement on such matters.
However much they might assert otherwise, domestic ‘Supreme Courts’ or ‘Constitutional Courts’ are never going to be sufficiently removed from the political and national interests of the nation state they belong to, to make an unbiased judgement.
Ditto for ‘government Experts’.
The criteria used by the UN (My understanding after years of reading UN debates and findings) are:
[b]A ‘People’ in need of self determination.[/b]
An identifiable group with an identifiably different consensual ‘World view’ from the rest of the host state. That difference may be formed by a distinct cultural development shaped by underlying philosophical principles of a historic or more recent formation by its intelligentsia or shaped from the bottom up by the customs and practices of the people themselves, often a marriage of the two.
Of secondary importance are things like the mix of languages spoken by the ‘people’ versus those of the rest of the host nation or even an origin mythos although the stories in the literary record of the latter may be a vehicle for illustrating long standing and persistent differences in ethos from that of the host nation.
Of even less importance are the sartorial and culinary differences which serve only as symbolically imbued badges of identification at best.
[b]An identifiable geographical area[/b]
Clearly a geographical area preferably with well defined and recognised borders associated with the ‘people’ is for purely pragmatic reasons a prerequisite for the attainment of nation statehood.
[b]Justification[/b]
First, the consensus of the ‘people’ needs to be that their distinctive ‘World view’ is worthy of realisation, preservation and future development. That is, that their ‘World view’ should contribute in a positive way to the World at large, that it should not be destroyed by design or assimilation, that the institutions of state and the cultural institutions available to it should not threaten its existence nor hinder its unique development.
Second, there needs to be consensus, under current constitutional arrangements, that their ‘World view’, whether by design or not, is not thus being accommodated to a satisfactory degree. Not properly reflected in the state instruments – legislature, welfare provision, educational provision, judiciary, foreign policy or by the cultural institutions – museums, art galleries, historical sites, printed press, broadcast media, performing arts, school curricula.
Or, that indeed, its very survival is under threat.
Third there needs to be consensus that this matters, to the extent that a change in the current constitutional arrangement is required.
Finally, as made very clear by the UN, the host nation is obliged by international law to ensure that a mechanism for testing that consensus of the ‘people’ by plebiscite, whether by elections or referendums, exists and is promoted to the ‘people’ by the host state.
[b]Viability[/b]
That the seceding ‘people’ should have a viable nation state. That its government can provide the services required for its population. Essentially that the new country has sufficient resources (material or skill based) to population ratio to sustain its people nutritionally (by agriculture or trade) and that the population is large enough to provide basic state services and institutions, schools, university(s), hospitals etc., which are considered matters of basic human rights in the modern World. (Although often stand alone non viable nation states can exist with service arrangements with a larger nation in place). Basically, no-one should be deprived of those basic expectations simply by accident of birthplace in a non viable nation state.
Despite having a great interest in international treaties e.g. UNCLOS, I see little evidence that the UN gives much credence at all to past treaties or concordants concerning internal constitutional arrangements.
sensibledave
Do you support the principle of universal human rights?
link to un.org
Hi sensibledave at 1:18pm.
You quoted Heedtracker and typed,
“5. If you want further evidence of your ridiculous “victimhood” just reread your last comment again. Again, you rote “Because you won 2014 (NO I DIDNT), that’s it, this precious union is saved (THE UNION WAS ALWAYS GOING TO CONTINUE WITH OR WITHOUT SCOTLAND)”
I’m intrigued. Two kingdoms set up a union in 1707; only TWO kingdoms. The kingdom of Scotland and the kingdom of England.
If the kingdom of Scotland votes to leave the union, ie once again become an independent nation state, how can the kingdom of England possibly continue in an extinct, gone before, deceased, pushing up the daisies union with itself?
Apologies for getting my code brackets wrong.
Nice one Chick. 😉
Not the sharpest tool, are you Dave? Got any mates?
link to davidebrocchi.eu
Brian Doonthetoon 2:30 pm
You wrote “If the kingdom of Scotland votes to leave the union, ie once again become an independent nation state, how can the kingdom of England possibly continue in an extinct, gone before, deceased, pushing up the daisies union with itself?
Ah Brian! Its a bit of a moot point and I know I am going to make you all antsy and I know Peffers will explode when he reads this… but the United Kingdom is now, to everyone but pedants, …. just a name! IF Scotland left the United Kingdom, it would still be called the United Kingdom. Its a bit like The Who still being called The WHO, even though Keith Moon died and wasn’t playing with the band anymore.
What were you hoping for? Did ya think we would rename ourselves the dis-United Kingdom or something? Please try to remember that there are knocking on for 70 million people in the UK. There are less than 2 million of those folk that have voted to “dis-unite” (but those voices need to be listened to and they need to be given the chance to express their views on Independence (they were (they said, no thanks))).
Just a thought, in a number of threads, a number of the more “whacko” tendency brigade argued that that only people born in Scotland should be allowed to vote in the referendum on Independence. Given that we all (or maybe just the sane amongst us) now use the term “Scot” to describe anyone born, or living, in Scotland, will we be wrong to use that name after Scottish Independence? Will it be renamed Scotsbornland?
Scottish culture does not fit on a biscuit-tin! It should be allowed to fit in somewhere though, Dave?
link to specialdee.wordpress.com
sensibledave says:
1 November, 2017 at 2:22 pm
heedtracker 1:31 pm
An English high tory has a tantrum, hardly enlightening sensible d.
Vote NO or lose your EU passport, for ever, sneered Project Fear, beeb gimps like Andrew Marr, all kinds of UKOK cult fanatics.
Look where its got us sensible d. No matter how few Scots actually vote tory sensible, you clowns still own and run Scotland.
But look at how much beeb gimp bullshit it all really takes, let alone your toryboy hysterics and you won 2014 too.
Rule Britannia, no thanks.
heedtracker
Dave may not be aware that his outlook would shape the nature of Scottish culture, through the values of English nationalism. I think he’s a traditional ‘One Nation’, Tory.
Do you consider yourself a moderate patriot Dave?
CameronB Brodie
I don’t think you have any comprehension of moderate patriotism in England Cameron. I can be an “Ox” (from Oxfordshire), a southerner, English, British or from the Uk – it all depends on the context and that context depends on variable circumstances. I can be “european” and, in the event of the invasion of the earth by marsians I will be an earthing picking up my pea shooter to scare em off. I am comfortable with all of that.
If its football, rugby or the Commonwealth games I am English. If its the Lions I am British & Irish). If it is the Olympics I am GB. If its the Ryder cup I’m European. IF the Welsh are playing the All Blacks then I want the Welsh to win. Does that answer your question?
I think there is a difference between English and Scottish mentality (in very, very broad terms). The English are not hung up with national symbols and iconogrpahy. We dont wear Kilts or or tamos, or carry shillelaghs or worship leeks and sheep. It is often our lack of need of those things that contribute to our national identity. Seemingly, just being English is enough for some folk to stereotype and define us without us needing to help. We quite like the enigmatic nature of our national identity particularly when people seem to feel “superior” because their country is defined in terms of kilts, tartan and Jimmy wigs for god’s sake!
We don’t have the sectarianism that still exists in Scotland and NI and we are much the better for that.
In summary, one aspect of English patriotism is to revel in the idea that other people think they are more patriotic – just because they keep saying they are.
To be a little confrontational Cameron, is it “patriotic” to be constantly trying to undermine the democratically expressed wish of the people of that country?
Heedy
You wrote “An English high tory…” once again you return to the meme that a country or an individual is defined by the way voted in a General Election. Its is your default position to insult pretty much everone that didn’t vote for the SNP in the GE (about 50 million of us I think).
Your complete lack of self awareness means that you don’t even question your implicit notion that you truly believe that you are the member of a master race – and that all other beings (in the United Kingdom are inferior to you someway).
I really do feel sorry for you sometimes – other times I don’t feel like letting it go unanswered. I know it wont make a difference though because nobody else on here tells you are a t**t and you will ignore this interchange and carry on with your SNP master race routine.