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Wings Over Scotland

Phew, that was close

Posted on January 20, 2016 by

Remember the scary old days, readers?


Thankfully, Scotland voted No and pensions were saved forever.



























Or something like that, anyway.

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    1. 20 01 16 18:43

      Phew, that was close | Speymouth

    161 to “Phew, that was close”

    1. gordoz says:

      But wait .. we’re ‘Better Together’, Messrs Brown & Darling said so, how can this be true ???

      Were we lied too .. surely not.

      Im fair astonished so um ur !!

    2. muttley79 says:

      I hope you are keeping a running tally of all of these broken predictions and lies from BT Stuart.

    3. One_Scot says:

      I suppose one good thing that can be taken from this, there is no way on earth that the Scottish public will be stupid enough to fall for the unionist lies and deceit next time.

    4. gordoz says:

      That Rev Stu’s makin it up:-

      Its that Alec Sammin & thon wee lassie wi the tin helmut so it is.

      Saw there fault wi thon independence

      Tellt yez, rank bad yins, cannae trust them. SNPBad !!

      Stick wi Mr Broon & Mr Darling god bless them they wouldnae lie tae us, Thier no the kind a men interested in thon Lords mince or makin money & that…

      Oh wait ..

    5. Andrew Morton says:

      Phew, dodged a bullet there.

    6. gordoz says:

      Ahh wait now; has this all been through the Kevin Hague ‘Pishometer’ yet for some UKOK airbrushing / SNPbad spin ??

      It’ll all be something to do with indyref downturn .. just wait.

    7. mogabee says:

      I really feel like kicking the cat…

      Thank god I don’t have one.

    8. gordoz says:

      Honestly; still don’t know how so called journos in Scotchland (and beyond) sleep at night.

      Glad I don’t know any. Really don’t think I could be civil in such company.

      Many thanks to all in our great press core & establishment acitivistas .. Not!

    9. Thepnr says:

      No doubt during the next referendum campaign the same old rubbish will be spouted again in order to scare pensioners a second time.

      Those leading the next Yes campaign need to be prepared to combat this right at the start, along with currency I hope the SNP have some of the worlds greatest experts looking at these issues right now.

      We definitely need to address not just how current pensions will be paid but future pensions. A bigger slice of the profits of employers needs to diverted from shareholders to the general good of their employees.

      Every retired worker should be entitled to a share of the profits that they contributed too. Too much goes to shareholders, too much is creamed off by the banks and insurance companies.

      Not enough goes back to the workers that created those profits in the first place.

    10. RogueCoder says:

      Pensions were never at risk from independence, but of course the unionists knew that pensioners are easy to scare and they always use their vote, so we had one of the most vicious and underhand lies perpetrated by “Better Together” foisted on the public. The over 65’s voted out of fear – and now those fears are realised, except is wasn’t a Yes vote that brought this on them, it was the very state that they thought was going to protect them.

    11. mealer says:

      Fool me once…..

    12. msean says:


    13. Quinie frae Angus says:

      Well-collected, Rev. You’re the best damned political journalist out there.

      Pensions was one of the NO campaign’s biggest scare stories and they deserve to be nailed on this now.

      Honestly, who else is honestly and thoroughly dealing with the lies we were spun by the BT mob and their establishment cronies?

      Who else is exposing the litany of scare-mongering stuff we were thrown throughout that long campaign?

      Having this list of the pensions deceit collected here all, in the one handy checklist should be manna to the MSM. Journos should be treating Wings’ archiving specialism as a windfall of apples. If they genuinely had journalistic integrity and were doing their their jobs well – i.e. finding out the truth and dispensing it in order to inform the public – they would be embracing Wings’ output and including it in all their punditry and discussions.

      Never ceases to amaze me how few hard-pressed churnalist journos out there on scant resources clearly just don’t have the cojones to pick up Rev Stu’s ba’s and run with them, so to speak.

      Sorry for the lame joke but seriously, he’s giving them stories on a plate! All they have to do is expand on them and grill (fairly) the proponents, maybe a bit of impartial analysis now and again – from a WIDE RANGE of speakers – and that’s their job done.

      I’d love to know the inside info on Wings true reputation in the newsrooms….

      Who else, from their own ranks, apart from Derek (Godsend) Bateman, is prepared to call the media out on this deafening silence and paucity of decent investigation?

      So utterly disappointed and angry at the Scottish media at what should have – and could have – been such an exciting, industrious and energetic period in our history and in our lives.

    14. Macart says:

      But, but, but that would mean that Mr Broon lied to all those pensioners in his whistle stop intervention tour.

      Was that the fifth or sixth?

      Anyways, his pants (according to ALL of those headlines) would most definitely be on fire.

      Who knew?

      So right up there with his ‘guarantee’ of home rule then.

    15. KennyG says:

      The Express are definitely trolling the public.

      Your pensions are fucked but don’t worry the Royals will be fine no matter what happens.

    16. davidb says:

      And glancing across those front pages above I begin to wonder if any of those pictured on the same front pages will be affected by the “pension crisis” themselves. Lizzy, Phil The Greek, Kate “Commoner”, Millionaire Gideon, The boys from Wand Erection, Pointless Pete.

      Its almost like they are subtly rubbing it in.

    17. HandandShrimp says:

      Messing with peoples’ pensions causes long term anger and antipathy. It will be hard for the Nay Sayers to talk their way out of what is developing into yet another “we are all in together, bleed the plebs” raid by the Treasury.

      Not least because a lot of Nay Sayers are going to get screwed too.

    18. bobajock says:

      Once I believed that when Scotland came to me
      It would come with deception, lies not poetry
      But with me and you it just started quietly and grew
      And believe it or not
      Now there’s something groovy and good
      Bout whatever we got

      And it’s getting better

    19. jimnarlene says:

      Another unionist lie, exposed.

    20. ahundredthidiot says:

      Just a wee point as I feel there is potential for confusion here.

      The scaremongering during indyref1 was targeted at those in receipt or close to, state pension, whereas this attempted raid is aimed at those who pay into workplace salary DC or DB schemes.

      Schemes incidentally which are already under massive pressure as employers do not want to keep paying into them, so their greedy shareholders can get richer.

      The race to the bottom is on. Those drama queens who said we were all headed for a slave society may not have been far wrong.

      The top 10% get richer, the rest of us get a little poorer.

      Extreme capitalism, don’t ya just love it!

    21. Robert Peffers says:

      I only know one outfit that can make a soo’s lug frae a silk purse, it’s Westminster.

    22. Murray McCallum says:

      The UK is immune to economic cycles.

      The £, GDP, house prices, pensions, health care, the BBC, … are all 100% gilt-edged guaranteed.

      It’s madness that Scots would wish to step away from this land of milk and honey.

    23. Capella says:

      Well it was obvious that all the crises they knew were coming down the line could be blamed on the Independence vote. If we had voted YES these would all be touted as the bad consequences of a YES vote. We would still be in the middle of negotiations remember.

      But if we voted NO – well too bad idiots, you’re stuck with Westminster’s economic chaos. What are you going to do about it?

    24. Iain More says:

      Aye were Bitter the Gither awricht!

      Just wait for the other whammy delivered by incompetent corrupt Councils as they hike the poll tax on those same pensioners, I call it the poll tax as that is what most of those pensioners call it anyway.

      I can definitely say that the latest rabies shots didn’t work after a day of unmitigated Brit Nat lies on the box today.

      Oh and the Scottish Govt should sack that Eisenstaedt woman or whatever her name is as she clearly takes no account of endemic cronyism, nepotism and uninvestigated corruption on most of the Councils. Nor does she take account of incompetence and deliberate obstructionism on those same Councils.

      Rant over for now!

    25. Papadox says:

      As we were all told politicians break NO rules in lying provided it’s a political message. Carmichale is the living proof of the Westminster skulduggery and deceit practiced by the English establishment. That is the system westminster operates and we pay for.

      Yes the good old NAW merchants walked right into that one with their eyes tight shut and fingers in their ears. The “upper crust” Anglo jocks are getting their just reward for being faithful to the Westminster establishment, God bless them. Unfortunately the rest of us are getting dragged down the same road against our wishes. Aye better together.

    26. Lesley-Anne says:

      Hmm! 😉

      I’m an out and out NO voter 😉 and I believed, hook line and sinker, every word that his illustriousness Gordno Brown and his exelency Alistair Darling told me … PERSONALLY … about my pension being safe under Westminster’s control. I also believed every word from his illustriousness’s mouth when he said we would be handed near Federalism. 🙂

      What I want to know is “Why are all those newspapers telling LIES?”

      I mean they MUST be lies … mustn’t they?

      After all it would be unthinkable for his Grand Illustriousness and His Exelency’s to blatantly LIE to me … wouldn’t it? 😀

      Maybe it is time to start looking at a wee law suit or two. After all there was, was there not 😉 , a recent law suit where a certain M.P. was found to be a LIAR. Therefore messers Brown and Darling must surely be held equally accountable for their LIES in 2014! 😀

    27. mike cassidy says:

      So how’s that pensioners’ union plan coming along, Gordon.

    28. geeo says:

      Despite all the lies from the referendum campaign being exposed to those who ‘would not see’ what we showed them, i reckon most will still vote No, unless the question of currency is resolved beyond a doubt.

      That and oil price will be the media mantra next time.

    29. heedtracker says:

      Its just one more Crash Gordon legacy, UKOK state pension one of the worst in the developed world in terms of working income replacement rates , lowest pay, longest hours, UKOK:-(

      2014, Crash Brown terrorised pensioners in Scotland via BBC vote SLab Scotland and Bettertogether but his economics were aimed squarely at low inflation.

      So Crash Gordon days of glory red and now blue tory UK governments tried to get non-inflationary economic growth going, by expanding labour supply and thereby holding down wages. Crash is one red tory that created one of the greatest UKOK class divides too, as red toryboys do do. Its great if you’re loaded or a slave wage payer.

      If you voted NO and you’re pension stinks, the above is why.

    30. frogesque says:

      @ geo

      We really need to just get on with an alternative to the pound. There has to be a legal way to do it or we will be forever tied to Theadneedle St.

    31. Luigi says:

      Och, many pensionable NO voters will remain in denial. They will seek some comfort in a bit of self-delusion:

      “It was just as well we voted NO, otherwise it could have been a lot worse!”

      Of course, there does come a point when it cannot get any worse, but we haven;t reached the tipping point yet. 🙁

    32. Effijy says:

      You do realise that there isn’t ONE thing that the Westminster
      Parties promised that has been delivered. Not ONE.

      I don’t count getting allowed to gather a small fraction of your own taxes as Home Rule or Near Federal State.

      No truth in Safe Pensions, Investment in North Sea Oil, EU Membership Guaranteed, continued investment in Scottish Renewable energies, oh and don’t forget the Love they have for us?

      I had a look at an Evening Times, belonging to a pensioner, and
      I couldn’t believe how few pages they print for a 60p charge.

      When you take out the SNP Bad, Adverts, and the daily event of trying make up drawn out Old Firm Football stories, you are left with a Crossword.

      Front page, Lady endures 16 hours without a carer visiting her home and Celtic Player scores a hat trick.
      I think that only the first one is NHS Scotland/SNP Bad?

      Hidden further into the paper, a smaller story shows Lewisham
      NHS Trust, in England, has had to pay out another £8 Million in damages for causing a brain injury.
      Be clear the Lady the Scottish Carer missed is the more serious?

      A pothole at the Raith Interchange is claimed to have closed down Scotland ? They fail to mention the vast sum invested by SNP
      Government on new roads and in that very area.

      Nicola should also be working on freeing a former serviceman from a foreign prison, even though foreign affairs are not devolved.

      Oh yes the Police on the beat seem to think that they are under pressure to make more Stop & Search arrests?
      Their Commander has always made it clear that they are under no pressure to so other than they have good reason.
      It is either an SNP Bad story or our Police are unable to understand their orders from their Commander?

      Looks like another paper that won’t be here for long!

      PS Just Watched Dippity Dug on a Labour Party Political broadcast. She did very well as this was the first time she
      was an intellectual match for everyone else who appeared.
      Some of the children must have been anything up to 8 years of age

    33. Stoker says:


      Where are all the lying Unionist mouthpieces who lied to the Scottish electorate? Shame on every last one of you, especially if you were born north of the dyke.

      Mind you, as Crash Broon remains as elusive as Lord Lucan, we all know exactly where Badger Boy Darling is, don’t we, sitting in the House of Paedo, reaping his rewards with his 30 pieces of silver.

      Every last lie you lot sold to the Scottish electorate will be exposed and your children will have to live with the embarrassment, humiliation and ridicule forced upon them by your very own selfish and weasley actions.

      Trust me, to be branded a liar will see you let off lightly.
      Tories, every last one of you – Blue, Amber or Red.

    34. Effijy says:

      I received this from the BBC and I’d like any SNP Supporters within striking distance of East Kilbride to attend the Big Debate on Friday.

      Dear Sir or Madam,

      I am writing to you from The Big Debate with Gordon Brewer, BBC Radio Scotland’s version of the TV debate programme Question Time.

      We are in East Kilbride at the East Kilbride Art Centre for our weekly Friday lunchtime debate 5th February and we are looking for a lively audience to come along and join our live debate.

      I would be most grateful if you could circulate the below invite amongst family, friends, colleagues and anyone else you think might be interested in coming along. And remember to apply yourself!

      To apply click on link to online application form email bigdebate [at] bbc [dot] co [dot] uk or phone 0141 422 7773

      Many thanks in advance.


      WHERE: East Kilbride Arts Centre 51 Old Coach Rd, East Kilbride, Glasgow G74 4DU
      WHEN: Friday 5th February, 2016
      TIMES: Doors open at the venue at 11:15am, show is on air from 12pm – 1pm
      BOOK: webpage link to booking form: ,phone 0141 422 7773

      Former Newsnight presenter Gordon Brewer is the host of The Big Debate.

    35. Effijy says:

      The letter below asks for help at tomorrow’s By Election in Hamilton. It would be wonderful if we could remove another
      Westminster led waster with your help.

      Hello friends,

      As I’m sure most of you will already be aware there is a By Election coming up in Hamilton (ward 17) this Thursday.
      We have fielded an excellent candidate here – Stephanie Callaghan, and our friends in Hamilton ask that as many of us as possible come along and help to Get The Vote Out.
      After our disappointment in Blantyre I think we can all agree that we must take nothing for granted and I’m sure many of you will be keen to help on Thursday.

      Helpers will be meeting at the SNP HUB, 18 Townhead Street, Hamilton, ML3 7BE at 10am and hope to keep the hub manned throughout the day (help with this would be welcomed).
      We need drivers, people to do knock ups and man polling stations as well as more general help at the hub.
      If you can spare some time but can’t make it for 10am the telephone number for the hub is 01698476707

      Soup, sandwiches and other refreshments will be served throughout the day to keep us fortified!

      I hope some of us can make it along to help in this, crucial, by election.

      Your for Scotland


    36. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      I have to keep saying this. The idea that the currency question cost us dearly is a unionist media invention. It merely had some effect in the general scaremongering campaign in the last couple of weeks and every informed Scot knew we could use Sterling if we wanted anyway. I well remember the huge cheer from the audience when Darling conceded this in the second TV head to head with AS

      The fact is whatever currency option we had favoured in our campaign would have been hammered relentlessly. I was involved for two years in a huge canvas in this area and the currency question DID NOT COME UP ONCE.

      It was introduced very late in the campaign as Better Together lost ground and had the effect of tying us up in a non productive argument when we should have been driving home our vision of a better Scotland. They would like to have us tied up in it again.

      In retrospect we perhaps could have said we have several currency options and what we choose will be determined as we negotiate our independence. After all over 80 countries since WW2 have become independent and faced the same negotiations without problem.

      I have little doubt that the shared currency option was the best one to provide stability AT THE POINT OF INDEPENDENCE and everybody knows that the rUK would have been at our door the following day to insist on it. So what’s the problem and why are some people bending to unionist spin on this issue.

      What an independent Scotland would have done in years to come is a different question. There is particular attraction in having your own currency.
      In the meantime all we have to do is establish that Scotland is comfortably self-supporting and we win any referndum

    37. Murray McCallum says:

      During a downward economic cycle an independent Scotland would have to borrow money.

      However, thanks to its strong economy, the UK is able to “pay down the debt” regardless.

      Scotland not making decisions for itself in its own interests is worth it because of this unique UK guarantee.

    38. Helpmaboab says:

      Err… How should I phrase this delicately?

      Are you suggesting that the British media might have lied to us? In the middle of the independence referendum, too?

      I, for one, can’t think of any reason to doubt their motives. It was probably just a terrible misunderstanding.

    39. Dr Jim says:

      Well, you know what to do Rev Stu:

      Rage at them from your home in Bath

      Rage at them

    40. Macart says:

      Still I’m sure all those folk affected will be perfectly understanding.

      Same deal with the old ‘vote SNP get Tory’ myth that’s been blown wide open, or Carmichael’s memogate accompanied with his literal ‘get out of jail free’ card. Oh and then there was the commons vote on FFA which had been preceded during the referendum with a media campaign on devo+, devo max, near federalism, home rule, ‘nothing off the table’, faster safer delivery. All of that, y’know, completely disingenuous and deceitful bullshit.

      The defence for all of this? ‘Its just how its done’. Nothing personal you understand, just politics. Yeah, apparently you can say about any damn thing during a campaign and the responsibility lies with the public as to whether they are believed or not. No penalties, no jail time, nothing. In fact it can often result in rewards for the culprit.

      Hmmm, no penalties, but consequences? Yes plenty of those for the folk out there.

      I hope Brown and all the media who sold his dog and pony show shit hedgehogs for the rest of their miserable lives.

    41. Peter Craig says:

      If, as was purported pre indy ref1 Scotland was indeed loved any fair minded UK Govt. would have said “Fly my pretty fly”

      But, we here know that the UK without Scotland is (Insert here your own possible apocalypse)

      We know this,the English establishment know this,and yet we feign surprise at the guttersnipe levels they are prepared to use against us.

      The British Empire has been at this shit a long time,they know what works ,they know what scares people,they know ,in short, how to game the system that they created.

      We need to be better, united, uncompromising,and absolutely dedicated to letting our ” Country fly”

      We are in great danger now of becoming the generation who could have freed Scotland, but who bottled it

    42. Lenny Hartley says:

      Murray McCallum

      Either ur a fecking idiot or a troll, the UK. Is increasing its debt by over 90 Billion pounds per year and that when they are claiming that the UK has growth. Away and bile yer heid

    43. Dr Jim says:

      My Dad’s been gone 38years ago but a well educated Edinburgh man, and he used to put these betrayals of Scotland by successive Westminster Governments extremely succinctly whenever they were announced, his use of language being legendary saying…….

      Aye….That’ll be right

    44. Ian Mackay says:

      Luigi says:
      20 January, 2016 at 7:02 pm
      Och, many pensionable NO voters will remain in denial. They will seek some comfort in a bit of self-delusion:
      “It was just as well we voted NO, otherwise it could have been a lot worse!”

      Indeed. The cognitive dissonance of a lot of stuck-in-the-wool No voters knows no bounds.

      Before the referendum it was: ‘The Vow gives us the best of both worlds’…
      the VERY NEXT MORNING when Cameron rubbished it and demanded EVEL… ‘Well I didn’t vote No for The Vow’…

      Before the referendum it was ‘Pensions are guaranteed with a No vote’… now it will be ‘I didn’t vote No for Pensions’

      Before the referendum it was ‘The NHS is guaranteed with a No vote’… now it will be ‘I didn’t vote No for the NHS’

      Before the referendum it was ‘EU membership is guaranteed with a No vote’… now it will be ‘I didn’t vote No for our EU membership’

      They should surely be wondering: Just WHAT did I vote No FOR?

      To paraphrase Martin Niemöller:
      First the Unionists came for The Vow but I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a Vow No voter; then the Unionists came for Pensions…

    45. nodrog says:

      I read some of the articles in the National last week with a high degree of dismay. I thought “here we go again, let us repeat 2008”. The super-rich and high rollers are being advised to “sell everything” and the markets were tumbling.

      The majority of capital nowadays appears to be only there to make money from money. This has been made so much easier at the click of a mouse to make or lose fortunes in seconds. It seems that no longer is capital invested in long term projects to benefit the areas of countries where that investment is needed to improve the quality of life for all of the population.

      It would appear Quantitative Easing is only for the Banks to invest in Financial Instruments and Banker bonuses. The very thought of Quantitative Easing for the people appears to have been dropped like a hot potato. Although I believe Finland is giving it a go. It will be interesting to see how it works for them.

      Well I think it could be better. So here is my tuppence worth.

      There are many examples from the past and present where total state control of capital and cooperation has failed for the populations of those countries where it has been practiced. There are some countries where it is still being practised and enforced. Absolute Monarchies, Dictatorships, Communism, one party beliefs, etc., perhaps they will diminish as people become better informed and as the use of the internet spreads. A truthfully well informed population make better choices when allowed to vote for a democratically elected government. A recent poll indicated that only 9% of Scottish voters accepted that The Vow and Smith Commission had been delivered? Ninety one percent showed their opinion about that in May last year by the way they voted.

      In the situation where uncontrolled global freedom of movement for capital exists finance will accumulate to the most profitable areas of the Global economy. Most of the capital invested in financial instruments will move to the financial centres. The capital invested in employment creating projects will go to countries where labour costs are cheapest or where high value, high demand, luxury goods are made.

      Some capital rich countries will also receive some of the capital invested in employment creating projects for large infrastructure developments. Even financial centres, like London, will receive a very high proportion of capital invested in employment creating projects to help develop their infrastructure. Simply because of who lives and “works” there. They may even create dormitory towns to accommodate the service personnel they will need to support the life styles of the super-rich. It is unlikely the service personnel will be able to afford to live in London.

      In my opinion what is happening now, globally, is a very large share of the finite amount of capital available is being funnelled into capital invested in financial instruments. At the same time as the capital rich financial centres are spending most of the rest of the available capital in employment creating projects in their own backyards. This leaves the remaining countries to suffer from depression and austerity because there is not enough capital available for development. No matter if they are developed or under developed countries.

      The apparent ease with which capital can be moved around globally, the development of offshore funds and super global companies is great for the super-rich. However the widening gap between rich and poor will have consequences especially in the well developed countries which are suffering depression and austerity. Witness the rise of left wing movements.

      The independent democratic countries with centre left policies that have successfully controlled participation in the Global Market are continuously at the top of the list when “Quality of life” is measured by Global Institutions. It is achieved when the governments of those countries decide, that first they look after their own inhabitants, then cooperate with the rest of the world in the Global Economy and participate in Global Cooperation.

      This is a balance between Capitalism and Cooperation and it occurs in mainly democratic centre left politically minded countries.

      In these countries all inhabitants have a good standard of living and some have a high standard of living. It may be that the price to pay is high personal taxation but the rewards are the best quality of life per capita in the world. Perhaps Scotland could join them?

      I believe we can. How? Well we could just copy one of the successful centre left countries of a similar population and resource rich potential, Norway. Or we could start from scratch and develop our own way, in my opinion that is the best way to go.

      It is often said that you can run a country just like you run a home. Based on a set income, on which you live within your means, and budget accordingly. This is why we have these discussions about the Barnett formula putting the emphasis on a fixed income for Scotland. At this time this fixed income is not set on the basis of the total value of Scotland’s resources. Rather, in my opinion, Westminster’s estimate of how little they can get away with giving to Scotland.

      Simply put any prudent country decides which currency it will use and prints the money it needs based on the value of the total resources available to it. The government then sets taxation levels to obtain good levels of service for its inhabitants.

      The government then ensures that money is shared out on the people and institutions in a manner that creates a good standard of living for all. Prudent government will encourage successful employment creating businesses to flourish. The necessary finances for the institutions to provide good education, health, safety and security will be maintained.

      Normally a prudent country will plan for a surplus and will invest this for future generations and/or times of depression.
      The available natural resources of an independent country include the people, the land and the sea of that country and it is from all of these resources that wealth is created.

      Properly governed and managed these resources can provide a good standard of living for all.

      Scotland has an abundance of natural resources including the whole of the land itself which should be owned by the Scottish Nation. These resources are the envy of many other countries. In my opinion, they are not being utilised for the greatest benefit of the Scottish people at present. People, farming, fishing, renewable energy, oil & gas, finance, food & drink, and many more providing income to the UK Treasury but not being utilised to our best advantage.

      There is no doubt that a country as rich with natural resources as Scotland would easily have a much higher standard of living than we have today. If Scotland was properly governed and managed by a centre left government whose core value is benefitting the whole population this could be achieved.

      In my opinion we need to develop our own Scandinavian approach to the government of an Independent Scotland rather than a US style that the Conservatives would lead us into. The SNP needs to be ready for this as it may be arriving sooner than they are prepared for.

      Here is my model of an independent Scotland with a centre left government:-

      GDP £203 billion (8.3% of UK GDP)
      Government & public services £50 billion
      Incomes & Pension £70 billion
      Private Industry & Commerce £82 billion
      National Fund £1 billion

      Yes I know there is a lot of detail to work out and reach these numbers but we Scots are well known for our hard work and great intellect. So let us get to it!

      It is incredible to me that over 50% of the people who voted in Indyref1 cannot see this as clearly as I do and even today 50% would still vote NO as the latest poll indicated. However that is their democratic right.

      It is up to us, who believe in an Independent Scotland, to help them to see the light soon and certainly in time for INDYREF2 which I am sure is already on the horizon. More especially with Brexit looming large and the polls suggesting the UK will vote to be out of the EU.

    46. Lenny Hartley says:

      Murray McCallum

      Apologies just read your earlier post, your obviously having a laugh

    47. Marco McGinty says:

      It would appear, that since 19 September 2014, the broad shoulders of the UK has suffered greatly from osteogenesis imperfect, to the point that they have crumbled away to nothing.

    48. Robert Graham says:

      well done STU for rounding up the evidence most of us here don’t have the savvy or the time to dig the way you do . i heard a lot since the referendum about how we need to bring the NO voters with us ,embrace them , gently convince them to our point of view , Aye F/N Right F/K them all ,brainless bunch of bloody cowards , i have yet to meet anyone who will admit to voting with the NAY sayers , embarrassed they bloody well should be ,as for all the total bloody idiots who voted NO and are now temporarily employed in the Tax Office in Cumbernauld shortly to be flattened for more housing tough shit , the ones who had sense and voted YES my heart goes out to you for being betrayed by your own work colleagues and i hope you are able to resume a reasonable employment with the assistance of the SNP government it wasn’t your fault , you like all of us were lied to end of

    49. Murray McCallum says:


      No problem. Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Sometimes it stops you going crazy though.

    50. Chitterinlicht says:




      Wee Willie


      Words cannot convey just how proud i am of them.

    51. Neil Anderson says:

      Ah know yon voice – unmistakable

      Name sez Gordoz

      You’re really Margit Curran, urent ye. :p

    52. John Jones says:

      why are we surprised that Brown would lie to us? when he was the first to raid our pensions and alter how the state pension rise would be calculated. why doesn’t Osborne rake back some of the ridiculously high pensions those ex-troughers receive for a short sojourn in WM,

    53. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Rev Cmon noo ur you gon doon the road of the Bbc an dain advertizements. You should hiv picked a better manufacturer of Toilet Rolls.

      Aw that an anither dej vu at 6.25pm ? wiz Kezie telling porkies again, tae school wains. The wains ur better watching Nightmare on Elm St they,ll sleep better.

      Hows the Adverts funds doing Kezie, ur they repeating themselves.

    54. Petra says:

      @ geeo says at 6:51 pm …..”Despite all the lies from the referendum campaign being exposed to those who ‘would not see’ what we showed them, i reckon most will still vote No, unless the question of currency is resolved beyond a doubt. That and oil price will be the media mantra next time.”

      Geeo I totally agree. There will be people reading about the pension situation and thinking that it was going to happen anyway, as part of the Union or with Independence. Additionally thinking that we’d all be up sh*t creek without a paddle in Scotland due to the oil situation. They can’t see that the Tories, and Labour before them, have created much of what’s going on now. They don’t question why this Government says on the one hand ”austerity, austerity tighten your belts” whilst on the otherhand can find billions for Trident and bombing countries like Syria. And of course all information distorted, in their favour, by their cronies in the media.

      We have to get out of this ‘place’ but before we attempt to do so someone, somewhere will have to deal with the currency issue because saying we’ll latch onto the Bank of England / Sterling aint going to convince anyone at all / going to work for a number of reasons, second time around, and the ‘subsidy’ myth will have to be laid to rest too before we’ve got any chance of winning Indyref2.

      Meanwhile Osborne, with his history degree, is hell bent on destroying our oil industry. What’s wrong with these people? Vindictive, totally insane, pretentious or just plain ignorant?

      ‘Experts: Westminster has abandoned North Sea – Holyrood should take over Oil.’

      ……. ‘Professors Peter Strachan and Alex Russell stated that “In the absence of Westminster showing a willingness to help maximise economic recovery from the North Sea, full control of energy and oil within the Scottish section of the North Sea should be transferred to the Scottish Government, and tax receipts for economic activity taking place within Scotland should be part of the funding arrangements for Scotland.” ……

      Strachan added that oil prices would return to $70 (£49) a barrel in three to four years, and it made sense for Holyrood to have control over the North Sea. He said: “Take Fergus Ewing’s proposals last January, as we were entering into this crisis. He set out comprehensively the need for an exploration tax-credit system. That was something I backed at the time, but we’re now a year on still waiting for Westminster to act on a system the Norwegians implemented a number of years ago.”’—holyrood-should-take-over-oil.12609

    55. Robert Peffers says:

      @geeo says:20 January, 2016 at 6:51 pm:

      ” … i reckon most will still vote No, unless the question of currency is resolved beyond a doubt.

      That and oil price will be the media mantra next time”

      First the currency question was resolved.

      There are only two kingdoms that have signatures, and their royal seals, on the Treaty of Union. Thus that treaty is legally a bi-party treaty and there is absolutely nothing whatsoever written in that treaty to indicate the two signatory kingdoms are other than equally sovereign kingdoms.

      Furthermore, both before and after the signing of the treaty, the sovereignty of the three country Kingdom of England remains with the monarchy of the Kingdom Of England while the legal sovereignty of the Kingdom of Scotland remains with the people of Scotland.

      There is absolutely no evidence anywhere that changes that equal legal sovereignty. This is all contained within the terms of the Treaty of Union. So either the treaty is the legal situation or it is not.

      If it not the present legal situation then the treaty is void and the legally elected Scottish Government simply walks away from the Union. The present Westminster MPs then become the elected second house of the independent Scottish Parliament.

      If it is the legal situation then Westminster has no legal sovereignty over Scotland, except by the express permission of the legally sovereign people of Scotland and.

      Thus, with a mandate from the sovereign people of Scotland, if the elected Scottish members walk away from Westminster and return to Scotland there is no legal reason to prevent them doing so.

      As for the currency – it obviously was agreed by the Treaty as the currency of both equal partners. As a United Kingdom cannot exist when one of the only two legal signatories leaves, the two partners return to the status quo ante – that is both return to being independent Kingdoms and there can be no remainder United Kingdom.

      Thus neither can claim the pound Sterling as their own. They must thus agree to either share the currency in a currency union or get a new currency of their own. It is in the best interests of both to continue with a currency union but, if either of the former partners cannot thole such an arrangement, it is that partner who must adopt a new currency. Neither can dictate to the other what they needs do.

    56. Dcanmore says:

      just as the ardent NO voter is about to stick their head in the sand: ‘wait … what’s that about One Direction?’

    57. Nana says:

      Got to get out of this union and soon, sick of the lies, but mostly sick of the filth that inhabit Westminster and the bbc.

      I have just posted the leaked Dame Janet Smith’s enquiry into the BBC and Saville on the previous thread.

    58. Petra says:

      @ Robert at 6:51pm ……… ”As for the currency – it obviously was agreed by the Treaty as the currency of both equal partners. As a United Kingdom cannot exist when one of the only two legal signatories leaves, the two partners return to the status quo ante – that is both return to being independent Kingdoms and there can be no remainder United Kingdom.

      Thus neither can claim the pound Sterling as their own. They must thus agree to either share the currency in a currency union or get a new currency of their own. It is in the best interests of both to continue with a currency union but, if either of the former partners cannot thole such an arrangement, it is that partner who must adopt a new currency. Neither can dictate to the other what they needs do.”

      Robert you know this and of course through people like you we know now however it’s the No voters and undecided that we have to convince. How on earth are we supposed to do that especially in light of the last Alex versus Darling shambolic currency debate?

    59. ScottieDog says:

      I emailed my SNP MP to get onside with the people’s QE policy wheeled out by Corbyn and John McDonnel. I think the SNP have been standoffish about it yet the wider movement is alive and well all across Europe and the case for PQE, Sovereign Money, Overt money finance, or whatever people are calling it (they do differ a bit in approach) is building momentum.

      Regarding conventional QE itself, it has had little effect on national economies other than as you mentioned to boost the stock market (which is way over valued as a result). The Japanese central bank now owns around 80% of its national debt.

      The main misunderstanding about QE is that many or most people believe that it provides the banks with reserves that can be lent out as loans but this is not how the banking system works. Loans actually create new deposits and are not based on reserves held by the banks. When the banks lends it increases the amount of money in the economy (as debt)

      So for Scotland I believe the only way forward is to have our own central bank and our own currency. This will provide the catalyst for the big infrastructure projects we need. Scotland won’t be able to engage in any form of QE if it doesn’t have a sovereign currency. If we use the pound then we will be restricted – I.e the Scottish govt WILL be constrained just like a household as Mr Osborne likes to lament.

    60. nodrog says:

      The 56 gave the Tories a few bloody noses in the early part of the parliamentary session. But that has only increased their resolve to do Scotland down with EVEL and Mundell. You can see it happening daily. Do you think they give a damn about May 2016? They have the power they need!

      I watched a TV program about the Polish Governments actions the other night and it was incredible how similar they are to our Tory lot in Westminster. Democratic Dictatorship in the making.

      Independence or doom – make up your mind time!

    61. ArtyHetty says:


      I think that says a lot, though it will be lost on the ignorant, who are unfamiliar with the subtle nuances of Scottish wit. I will however, repeat that over and again whenever my no voting friends start to talk thwir ignorant s***e about their own country, and I am sure the more savvy ones in NE engerland will get the message as well.

      Aye right.

      P.S. Ian Mackay@7.30

      great comment, the nawbags will be raging but will never ever admit their nasty, greedy union just fleeced em, again.

    62. One_Scot says:

      You can almost see Jackie Bird sitting there with her Labour red top on.

      ‘Right folks, remember all that pish that we scared you with last time before the referendum, and you crapped your pants and voted No, even though it really was pish. Well, were going to tell you it all again, and were banking that your stupid enough to fall for it again.’

    63. Petra says:


      @ Nana ….”O/T Don’t want to put this on the new thread. Breaking news Leaked report to Exaro on BBC Saville.”

      Nana I HOPE that you don’t mind but I’m bringing this over because I think it’s crucial that everyone should see these links for example how many people were aware that this was going on and data such as ”Three of Saville’s victims were 9 years old.”

      The BBC housing any number of perverts, previously and even now no doubt, and beaming their propaganda right into our homes …. AND having the brass neck to charge people for their ‘service’, Ggrr!

      The BBC should actually be ‘shut down’ ASAP as it’s detrimental to our health and wellbeing.

    64. Not Required says:

      Personally I always thought the idea of a currency union with rUK was the weakest part of the SNP/Yes Scotland’s argument and was never in favour of it. Ironically this meant that when the unionist parties did their “grand reveal” and announced that none of them would be in favour it, this helped strengthen how positive I felt about independence! 😀

      Personally I thought the route the Irish Free State / Irish Republic took on the currency front was the logical approach. Start with Sterlingisation, then move to a Scottish Pound backed 100% in Pounds Sterling by a currency board. Maybe stay at this stage, or maybe move later to a full central bank with a fully floating currency. Ultimately maybe adopt the Euro, though obviously I doubt you’d find much support for that particular move at the moment. The problem is that this is hard to condense into a “30 second soundbite”. Of course, whatever currency option had been proposed Better Together would have made arguments against it. (Though I did like the proposal above Yes Scotland should’ve listed the available options, and said the Scottish Government would’ve picked the best one during the independence negotiations.)

      On the pensions front. Yes, Better Together was very much into spreading fear, uncertainty and doubt on the subject. Though strangely enough neither them, nor the people arguing for “no” online where able to provide any concrete examples of people losing their pensions due simply to no longer living in the UK.

      When it comes to the current market turmoil. Well I should think anyone retiring in the next couple of years (assuming they’re going for the traditional annuity route) would be entirely unaffected, since they’d surely no longer be invested in equities for such a short investment timeframe? They’d be largely/entirely invested in long-dated Gilts surely, since those sort of Gilts most closely approximate the costs of buying an annuity. People like me who are decades away from retirement should be concerned by the falls either, it just means that when I get paid on Friday my pension contributions (plus those from my employer) buy more shares …

      I disagree with ScottieDog about the main misunderstanding about QE. I think the misunderstanding is that people think it involves the government giving money to “the banks” free, gratis and for nothing. What actually happens is that the Bank of England buys Gilts (UK Government Debt) on the open market, the hope/expectation is that the sellers of the Gilts will then buy something higher up the risk spectrum, and then so-on-and-so-forth all the way up the tree till hopefully something is investing in start-ups and the like.

    65. Petra says:

      @ ScottieDog says at 8:18 pm …. ”So for Scotland I believe the only way forward is to have our own central bank and our own currency.”

      That makes sense ScottieDog but how easy is (to have our own central bank) that? Is it possible or could Westminster ‘block’ that too?

    66. Quinie frae Angus says:


      I’m a recent convert to Twitter and use a different pseudonym to the one I use here. I don’t go on much, but it’s an eye-opener. And often quite funny.

      Rev Stu currently in a Twitter battle with:

      a) a BritNat who objects to being called a BritNat, and describes us as Stu’s “minions”. That’s us, Wingers!

      b) Maggie Vaughn who’s Alistair Darling’s bizarrely bitter wife, who is calling us the “frenzied Wings mob”. Again, that’s us, Wingers!

      What a bunch of clueless twerps they are.

    67. nodrog says:

      I am rounding up – so no comments on statistical accuracy!
      UK GDP 2450 Billion. Official statistics
      Scotland GDP 160 Billion. Official statistics
      I.E. Scotland GDP = 6.5% of UK GDP
      Scotland population = 8.3% of UK population
      160 Billion / 0.083 = 1920 Billion
      2450 – 1920 = 530 billion

      Question where does the difference between 8.3% and 6.5% come from?

      Answer – in my opinion – The City State of London

      If the treasury takes 91.7% from globally earned Oil revenues and gives Scotland 8.3 %

      Why does the treasury not give Scotland 8.3% of the globally earned 530 billion? I.E. 43 + 160 = 203 Billion.

      Perhaps they think that with cheaper office building and business rates we would never be able to attract at least 8/10% of the financial services to Scotland. Not to mention a better quality of life than London.

    68. Kenny says:

      There is absolutely nothing to stop Scotland setting up its own central bank (or, indeed, not having a central bank at all).

      There is nothing to stop Scotland just doing a variation of what we have now: asking taxes to be paid in Scottish £s, which would be the Scottish currency, but letting English pounds continue to circulate on a 1-1 basis, freely interchangeable [in the long-term, our pound would appreciate against the rUK pound, because ours would be a petro-currency].

      Anything can be a currency. Shops in Edinburgh and Glasgow should be encouraged to accept euros and dollars from our foreign visitors, people with smartphones should be encouraged to get into digital currencies, local currencies are also a great way to overcome depressions.

      What worries me is this: Scotland would need to be allocated its share of the gold in the Bank of England, in order to back up the currency (although our black gold is also good guarantee!). But some say that this gold in the Bank of England is all hypotheticated (basically lent out 10x and so has about ten “owners” to every bar)…

      … could this be the ultimate reason why they simply CANNOT let us go, the gold question, as then it would all come out and the leaking ship UKOK would *really* sink?!?

    69. TJenny says:

      Quinie frae Angus – Hi QfA – you missed out the best bit – the Rev’s working on ‘Frenzied Wings Mob’ badges – yaaay. 😉

      (I think the ‘Wings’ needs to be Wings’, just saying) 🙂

    70. Clootie says:

      …wrong time to say “I told you so!”

    71. nodrog says:

      Kenny says:
      20 January, 2016 at 9:00 p.m.

      Correct me if I am wrong Kenny but did not the great chancellor Brown not sell our gold at the same time as he destroyed our pension funds?

    72. JLT says:


      Should the day come and we ever have a 2nd Referendum, to be honest, apart from an updated re-issue of the Wee Blue Book (WBB), I would also create the Wee Red Book (WRB). In this book, I would have the same chapters that you had in the WBB and rather than explanations, just have it contrasting images of the before and after …just as you did at the start of this article.

      As they say …a picture says a 1,000 words.

      For those who maybe don’t get it, then something with contrasting images would (hopefully) make the person see the light. Some folk don’t want to read …they find it too time consuming. But pictures …oh, they’ll look at pictures.

      They basically look at the WRB, frown, grunt, flip the page, raise eyebrow, grunt some more, flip, swear, flip the page, swear again …and then just maybe …pick up the WBB to get the answers that they are looking for.

      It can’t be the worst idea in the world if seeking ideas to convert folk if we should ever get that 2nd Referendum.

    73. Zorbathejock says:

      Don’t worry, If Kezia is FM she’ll use the money gained from not reducing APD to top up pensions.

    74. Still Positive. says:

      Zorbathejock @ 9.53

      Will that be before or after she uses the APD money to build a squillion houses?

      SNP x 2.

    75. Andrew Mclean says:

      Not totally off topic but do you remember when Hellen Liddell was put in charge of pensions, and how she promised to sort it all out,? Well an old mucker of mine worked in a senior position in a pension company, I won’t advertise them but she’s dressed in black and lives just of the M9. Well over a large gin I chided him that he was going to get sorted. His stopped smiling and said Andrew are you really so naive, she is a patsy, a feckless nonentity, you will see!

      Fucking labour

    76. Cadogan Enright says:

      Program on BBC 2,about a Welsh village Crichhowel where they are trying to overthrow the tax system whereby the top 1% I n the UK and multinationals pay little or no tax

      Basically everyone in the village going “offshore” with a Mann /Dutch sandwich. Then trying to get 499 other towns to follow them

      ordinary people rebelling against the likes of Osbourne allowing his rich relatives to take their assets offshore, reducing the tax base, and then ordinary people’s pensions are attacked, and those on social welfare stolen from to boost the tax free incomes of the 1%

      Suprisingly to see the BBC run a programes like that, I suspect the higher-ups did not realize that it threatened their ‘UKOK owners’ ‘cos of basic economic and political ignorance on their part

      Bet they bury it PDQ

    77. Johnny says:

      Luigi @ 7:02pm

      Too true. Experienced the ‘this all just proves we had a lucky escape!’ from people who either do not have the time, inclination or ability to work out they’ve been had.

      Much the most annoying aspect of the whole thing is that what all these events do prove is that all countries are going to go through hard periods and have to react to them.

      It annoys me that capable people seem to think ‘the UK’ can react to problems, probably would accept the same of any independent country you care to name, but think Scotland cannot.

      And this annoys the bloody crap out of me because I know plenty of people, all doing different things, who are ready and capable to keep doing those things and thus ensure that Scotland is as ready to react to problems that comes its way and would look like any other functioning society.

      We are *not* uniquely hopeless and I’d like pro-independence politicians to make this case more forcefully whenever any sneers to the contrary….it’d go a long way to foster the necessary self-confidence.

    78. Gary45% says:

      Ah ha so Stu is really Gru.
      Bagsy I’m Dave and the missus says she wants to be Stuart.
      And as far as taking any notice of the opinions of someone who ADMITS to being married to a Slab member (current or otherwise).
      She is a NOBODY.

    79. One_Scot says:

      Gawd, do you not just wish this was Wednesday the 4th of May.

    80. galamcennalath says:

      NO voters, we know you believed the BBC, and trusted the newspapers you have read all your lives, and accepted the warnings of senior policians …. just look around you at what has actually come to pass, and don’t do the same next time!

    81. Cadogan Enright says:

      @kenny 9.00

      Loads of economists support this approach – better again back it with a digital backbone

      Only a Chartered Accoutant meself, , but what has the Scottish Government got to lose?

    82. Wullie says:

      You can fool some of the people some of the time but can’t fool all the people all of the time.
      Except NO Voters, you can take the pish out of them 24 /7/ 365. Makes no difference those two million odd voters are still out there waiting to stab us in the back again.

    83. ScottieDog says:

      (Think my post disappeared).

      As kenny mentioned anyone can create money. However the trick is getting it accepted.
      As for getting permission from the Bank of England is concerned I think this only need be sought if the new currency is to be convertible into £.

      Whilst we don’t have our independence we really should be experimenting with local and regional currencies wherever possible. Here’s a good example of a pilot in France….

      We are deeply mired in false beliefs about money and local currencies are a good method of making people realise that the way our money is created at present is probably the worst of all possible ways. Giving private banks the monopoly over the creation of money in our society has been ruinous and we need to circumvent them.

      Here’s a good book you can download for free from the New Economics Foundation. It explores lots of different currency ideas around the world and how you can set one up.

      Scotland should be innovating now with money so that the step towards a sovereign currency as part of an independence campaign Is naturally our plan A.

    84. Dr Jim says:

      “Womens equality party” has no men in it
      But does criticise other parties with men in them (Equal?)

      This party is standing for election in every constituency in Scotland and their representative says “They have a laser like focus on equality” but when asked they’re opinion on Scottish Independence says” Bah mwa blir sblum nma “We have a laser like focus”

      So, they’re a party who doesn’t have men in it (Equal) and they don’t like answering actual questions on anything other than Lasers

      Kezia will probably join

    85. proudscot says:

      Didn’t some entitled Tory MP recently suggest that Gideon go after the pensioners as (a) Many of them would have died off by the time of the next GE, and (2) most of those left would be so far gone with dementia they wouldn’t remember it was the Tories who’d shafted them?

      Nice people the Tories, eh?

    86. Craig says:

      You know what? Good, let George steal their pensions, I really hope that he does, that will stick in their fuckin throat, hell fuckin mend the lot of them, the selfish bastards that screwed their grandchildren’s future because of their own greed.

      Sorry for the swearies but I am still raging that they believed that tripe and this one form of justice being delivered.

      Thank you Gideon

    87. ArtyHetty says:

      Womens equality party? Sounds a tad womens institute with a pretendy feminist angle. I fckg hate pretendy feminists.

    88. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Wullie at 10.49
      Or as George Bush said “You can fool some of the people all of the time and those are the ones we should be concentrating on” – as good a description of the continuing Better Together campaign as you could find.

    89. Gerry says:

      @Craig, I share your frustration, I really do.
      I was going to say how they were scared en masse and we had and still have no way to counter that tactic. Thing is though… They shat it, plain and simple. They looked the bully in the eye and shat out.

    90. Dr Jim says:


      That was Dr Liam Fox…ex defence minister

      Another warm and fuzzy Tory

    91. stephen says:

      Feel the same way Craig.Greedy ,selfish,politically illiterate.Remember trying to engage with OAPs during referendum,gave up after a while .They kept coming out with the same pish,straight out of the Sunday Post etc.Shat it big time,shameful

    92. Robert Peffers says:

      @Petra says: 20 January, 2016 at 8:15 pm:

      ” … Robert you know this and of course through people like you we know now however it’s the No voters and undecided that we have to convince. How on earth are we supposed to do that especially in light of the last Alex versus Darling shambolic currency debate?”

      It really should be done via the Scottish legal system, Petra, but can we trust it to do its duty to Scotland’s
      Sovereign people?

      One other relevant thing I did not mention is that the Kingdom of England doesn’t own, “The Bank of England”. That bank was begun by the London Scot, William Paterson.

      Until the Kingdom of England, “Glorious Revolution”, of 1688, the law of that kingdom was, “The Divine Right of Kings”, this has been much propagandised ever since. (Remember that Scotland’s legal system was established in 1320 by, “The Declaration of Arbroath”, that not only established Scotland internationally as an Independent Kingdom with the Bruce family as the monarchy but it also declared that the Monarchy was NOT sovereign but the people were. A very big democratic change indeed.

      Thus when The English Parliament held its Glorious Revolution and brought William and Mary to the English throne, it may have given England a measure of political stability, after almost a century of chaos, but as both kingdoms were still independent the English revolution could not legally depose the Scottish Monarchy.

      While the English Kingdom’s commerce flourished its public finances were very weak and the system of money and credit was in great disarray. The goldsmith bankers had been badly damaged by the poor financial management of the Stuart kings who, incidentally, had tried to form a United Kingdom and retain the Divine Right of Kings.

      The English public were calling for a national or public bank and many schemes were proposed. The one chosen came from the London Scot, William Paterson, who envisaged a loan of £1,200,000 to the Government by subscription by the public. In return the subscribers would be incorporated as the “Governor and Company of the Bank of England”, and the capital was raised in a few weeks. Thus the bank received a Royal Charter which was sealed on 27 July 1694. So the bank started its role as the English Kingdom’s Government banker and debt-manager but has remained, till this day, as an independent company.

      It was, though, nationalised by the United Kingdom, NOT ENGLAND), in 1946 but remains an independent company wholly owned by the UK NOT English Taxpayer.

      As to Patterson, this is the same London Scot who subsequently instigated the disastrous Darien Expedition and who was best buddies with Daniel Defoe, the author and proven English undercover agent operating in Scotland during the bribery, coercion and blackmail of the Scottish parliamentarians who were also the Scottish Landowners.

      It would indeed be naïve to imagine these events were not linked and driven by the Establishment at Westminster. It is on record that Defoe was forced into debt and blackmailed into working for the Establishment. I believe so also was Paterson.

      So there you go. The whole Treaty of Union was an English engineered affair and quite illegal under both Scottish and English law but the main points are that the introduction of King Billy and Queen Mary of Orange could not be legally applied in Scotland without the explicit permission of a majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland.

      The treaty itself specifically states that Scots Law is independent, that the English Monarchy cannot be head of a Scottish Church and the Scottish Education system remains independent. As for the BofE, it never did belong to the Kingdom of England and only became wholly owned by the taxpayer after the United Kingdom was formed and thus is as much the property of the people of the Kingdom of Scotland as it is of the people of the three country Kingdom of England.

      Incidentally the Westminster Parliament building itself also belongs to the taxpayers of the Entire United Kingdom as it burned to the ground and was rebuilt in its present form at the expense of the entire UK.

      It is thus a total myth that a United Kingdom can legally continue if either of the only two partner kingdoms decides to end the bi-partite union. It is also a myth that only the Kingdom of England owns all the assets and debits, including the existing debt. Nor does it own the Civil Service, or the navy, army and air force or the Bank of England.

      Now remember back to the Bitter Together Campaign claims and the bland assumption that the bi-partite Union would not end but that Scotland would leave behind a still extant United Kingdom. You can discount that notion as the Kingdom Of England annexed The Princedom of Wales in 1284 and the documentation of, “The Statute of Ruddlan”, in 1284 is there to read. The principality of Wales was transformed into counties, on the English principle, and governed by officials on behalf of the English crown. All Ireland was also annexed by England in 1542 by, “The Crown of Ireland Act”, and thus the so called, “Treaty of Union”, with Northern Ireland of 1800/1 is a nonsense as Northern Ireland was not then an independent Kingdom but had already, like Wales, become part of the United Kingdom as part of the Kingdom of England in 1706/7.

    93. Cadogan Enright says:

      @Stephen 11.42

      Speak for yourself kid, in my experience the most unreasonable nos were the young bigoted idiots like yourself

      Older people like me have reason to be scared. If you trust your media and Government and have no reason to think they are lying, you are 60+years old with a small pension living in fuel poverty with no access to the Internet then flying in the face of a media storm from the State and Corporate media is a big jump.

      It’s the young no voting twats your age that are the real problem. Older people can be brought around as myths are dispelled and Nicola repeatedly proves her competence while the SACM disgraces itself so that even the most blind can see if they want to

      I would not want you on a canvassing team with me given that attitude

    94. stephen says:

      @cadogan enright
      what’s bigoted about saying 70 odd percent of OAPs shat themselves and voted NO,I repeat what I said —selfish,greedy,and politically illiterate.Too lazy to look beyond BBC Scotland ,Sunday Post,Daily Record etc etc .

    95. dakk says:

      I’d better not push my compulsory euthanasia for voters over 55 gig tonight or I’d be the one getting the pillow put over ma face by the sound of it.:)

    96. willie says:

      Raiding peoples lifetime of pension savings. Ho, ho ho, suck it up folks – Osborne’s getting his stover into your pot. Better Together…..tee hee hee. Somebody’s got to pay for Trident and all these foreign wars. Tee hee hee

    97. Almannysbunnet says:

      Craig says:
      20 January, 2016 at 11:09 pm
      You know what? Good, let George steal their pensions,

      Problem is Gideon is going after your pension. He’s not going after current pensioners. Read the story. He is going after middle aged people saving for their future pensions.

      Stop lumping all pensioners together! I didn’t see many pensioners in George Square wrapped in the butcher’s apron terrorising yes supporters. I’ll tell you where I do see them though, at every single SNP local meeting I go to, at the party’s national convention in Aberdeen, trudging the streets handing out yes leaflets leading up to September 2014 and SNP leaflets up to May 2015.
      It makes as much sense as blaming all women because 57% voted no or all the people living in Scotland but born in England, Wales or N Ireland because 72% of them voted no.
      53% of 40-59 year olds voted no, 45% of 25-39 year olds voted no, 51% of 16-24 year olds voted no.
      Whichever age group you’re in, go after those no voters and try convince them to change. Perpetuating the myth that the pensioners, all by themselves, lost the referendum is lazy argument.

    98. Clapper57 says:

      ” Women’s Equality Party ” their leader Sophie Walker lives in London married to Chris Naylor former Lib Dem Councillor.

      Sounds like that’s a winning formula for massive gains in Scotland , unless you don’t like the London connection , Lib Dem connection or you’re a man.

      She was on Scotland Tonight and was asked about party policy for Police Scotland…..Duh….her answer….starting talking about something else, child care I think, totally swerved the question …Doh ! Finger on the Scottish political Pulse…not… pretty much like the yoon parties really .

    99. call me dave says:

      A wee bit more on the spending per party.



    100. Petra says:

      I see that there are a number of excellent posts on here that I should reply to and will do later. Meanwhile I would like to respond to Stephen’s posts.

      Stephen the first thing I’d like to say is this if you are a supporter of Scottish Independence, and I don’t doubt that you are, you must know that the name of the game for us is to convert (educate / convince) as many prior No and undecided voters to vote Yes next time round.

      To do so we have to have the ability to ’empathise’ with them …. see things from their point of view (not castigate but face facts). It’s not an easy task, far from it in fact, as we have to take into account their age, marital status, level of family support, location (current and past – north or south of the border), background, health (physical and psychological), intellectual level or ability, social and financial status, linguistical understanding (comprehension of and ability to express), access to the Internet and so on. As you can see, IF you agree with me, there’s a multitude of factors to consider: And when you, say, knock on a door you have no idea at all who is standing behind it (or behind a pseudonym on the Internet) and what makes them tick. In other words the number of wrinkles on the face of the person who answers the door tells you nought at all.

      To my mind it’s not about age or even the ability to access the Internet. It’s all about individuality on the one hand intertwined with the complexity of human beings on the other hand in relation to their interests / level of knowledge, current life situation and past and present experiences. More than anything decisions made mostly relate to their personal background, current situation and hope and FEAR for the future. Fear of being made homeless (as I can’t pay my mortgage), being sent back to their homeland, freezing or starving to death (no wage or pension to rely on), rUK relocators clinging to the so-called Westminster safety-net, individuals of all ages being worried to death about not being able to take care of their children, elderly mother or sick / disabled relatives etc, etc. That’s what it’s all about. Bitter Together understood this only too well especially as they have expert psychiatrists / psychologists working for them and used their advice to frighten or scaremonger to great effect.

      As an example / s many elderly individuals, such as my 94 year old neighbour, don’t access the Internet but voted for Independence … she’s on the (political) ball but is also fairly well off. Another 76 year old neighbour is never off the Internet and voted No. He’s not interested in politics and was conned out of his personal pension (some of) years ago so trusts no one and is fearful of losing what he has now (loadsa dough). Many elderly people that I visit have little in the way of material possessions at all and voted Yes. A number of young Polish people that I know of were convinced by Labour activists that they would be sent home and voted No. And so it goes on.

      Westminster is the supreme ‘expert’ when it comes dividing / conquering. subjugating, suppressing, repressing, smothering, shackling and so on. They’ve had centuries of experience, the World over, to whittle / refine their propaganda and scaremongering techniques and they know only too well that it’s all about tapping into the individuals psyche, triggering their fears and in turn influencing their actions (voting).

      Triggering of fears of course is brought about through the media (appeasing their Master) such as the BBC, STV and newspapers.

      We in turn have to block their ability to do so such as posting on here. Posting data to enlighten and alleviate the fears of all No and undecided voters regardless of age. In other words let’s not blame them ….. the over 55s. The blame lies solely at the Westminster and corrupt unionist media door, IMO.

    101. Brian McHugh says:

      I work in the public sector and opted out of the pension scheme. Folk laughed at me at the time. I’m laughing now.

    102. Fergus Green says:

      Sheer poetry from Wee Ginger Dug.

    103. deewal says:

      @stephen 11:42

      Fuck Off.

      69 Year old Liverpudlian/English/Jewish long time SNP paid up member.

      I spent 2 years on the street campaigning and a year and a half grieving.

      All young men think old men are stupid but all old men know young men are stupid.

      I believe now that if a country want’s Independence from Westminster they are going to have to physically fight and die for it.

      Start by recalling the 56 from Westminster as Sinn Fein MP’s do.

      Boycott the place so they know where we stand. They serve no purpose there except to be insulted.

    104. yesindyref2 says:

      John McLellan who bow writes in the Herald was Communicatsions Director for the Conservative Party in Scotland for over a year. For some reason when I post that it gets deleted, ah well, what a surprise.

      He’s also chairman of Scottish Newspapers or some such organisation. No doubt making the press Tory truly impartial.

    105. Craig P says:

      We were told in 1979 that independence or even just devolution would lead to losses of jobs, places like Ravenscraig closing.

      I thought that we wouldn’t fall for the same stories a second time, but we did.

      Whats to stop it happening a third time? Scots have shown themselves to be uncritically trusting of their masters’ voices in the British media.

    106. jdman says:

      What Craig P say
      Scotland should be ashamed of itself for allowing itself to be scammed for a second time and the press are 100% to blame, they could have easily reminded people of the “vote no for something better “PROMISE” by another “elder” statesman (who wouldn’t lie to us would he?) Alex Douglas Hume!

    107. CameronB Brodie says:

      Further to nodgrog @ 7:33pm

      This is a huge subject (the movement of global capital), which links with other vast subjects, such as cultural diversity, so can’t really be done justice blt.

      I’ve already posted a report, which I can’t find now, concerning the formation of nations and the resulting hierarchies of urban organisation in Europe. The trend appeared to be towards the ‘evolution’* of ‘regional’ megacities (certain national capitals/first cities), which have become the focal point for and flavour of, regional intercourse with the world. Or in other words, weez is all One Nation Londoner’s in the global league.

      I wish there was something we could do to ensure a Scottish voice is heard in the future?

      The World’s Urban Systems: A European Perspective

      Estimation of megacity growth: Simple rules versus complex phenomena

      * IMHO, Europe’s maturation should not be viewed as an evolution, in the traditional sense, as economic policy is directed by greed and ignorance and not laws of nature.

    108. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry, that should have been nodrog.

    109. Dorothy Devine says:

      Is that another” divide and rule “scam appearing on this site?

      I am a supporter of independence and of pensionable age.

      Stop blaming certain sections and convert those who did vote NO for whatever reason – good luck with the marching bunch.

      I do remember Gordon Brown purloining money from pensions , I presume since Osborne is of similar economic enlightenment , that he is merely imitating ” the great man” as a form of flattery.

    110. Macart says:

      Basically what Petra said at 3.42.

      Constant anger, constant raging, constant blame projection against sections of the electorate isn’t winning an argument. It certainly won’t win new friends that are urgently needed to reverse what Westminster is doing and has already done. There is such a thing as shaming folk so much they retreat from your approach. Shaming them to the point where they resent your constant reminder of their actions and continue to support the very damn thing that is causing them real harm.

      We need them angry and onside. We need them confident in their own Scottish Government and we need them to KNOW that we have their backs and that our hand is out. They need to feel confident that a bit of empathy and a warm welcome awaits them.

      And whether folks like it or not they are NEEDED! The votes required for the next referendum won’t magically appear just when we need them. They are going to have to be earned by both the Scottish Government and the YES movement.

      If people want to chuck blame in a direction there are plenty of candidates in the political arena and the media far more deserving of our contempt.

      Something to think about.

    111. scottieDog says:

      Good post. We are not in any position to alienate people and you’re right we must instead educate them. If they see nothing wrong with the current set up why would they wish to change it.

      We might say that many NO voters are following the ‘I’m alright jack’ paradigm but the truth is they are NOT alright.

      They have bought into (not through choice)
      a massively over-leveraged ponzi economy and they are going to lose (and are already) big time. Their wealth is being extracted bit-by-bit by a city led govt. They are the frogs being slowly boiled so don’t see it unfortunately.

      In my job I’m surrounded by the middle classes who still believe that all of our wealth is disappearing and going into the pockets of a few benefit dodgers (que the tv programmes).

      The majority belief in the event of a financial crisis is “just aswell we’re not independent”. We need to change that to “we need out of this system”.

    112. CameronB Brodie says:

      The lads and lasses with large brains, have all but agreed that our identities are shaped by our surroundings and that this process is largely complete by the time we are 21.

      I did not grow up during a time when Britain was an imperial power and there was no alternative media, so if find it easy to see the positives to independence. Someone who has grown up as a proud subject of the British empire, will have an entirely different world-view to myself. They will need persuasion and encouragement to abandon life-long beliefs and emotional ties.

      I would suggest we have a lot of work ahead of us.

    113. Rob says:

      Interesting item on trust in the media on R4’s Media Show yesterday – last ten minutes.

      “A global survey by PR firm Edelman has found a “huge increase” in levels of trust that British people feel towards traditional media. Its ‘Trust Barometer’, a survey of over 33,000 people globally, and over 1000 people in the UK, found that university educated individuals with higher incomes felt a big rise in trust of the media – up 14% this year to 52%, compared with those on lower incomes whose “trust score” in the media was 40%.”

      Even for contributors to newspapers, academics, celebrities and elected officials, trust has gone up. Yet, inexplicably, trust in one group – and only one group – has fallen, journalists, down by 2%.

    114. galamcennalath says:

      One of WGD’s best ….

      … this should be read far and wide.

    115. Ken500 says:

      UK raises £515Billion in tax. Scotland raises £54Billion . (£10Billion more pro rata) Scotland (UK) Pension = £6Billion raised in Scotland. Less pro rata people died on average younger. The rest of the UK spends £72Billion on Gov pension.

    116. call me dave says:

      @Petra’s generally got the right idea there, many NOs are reflecting on their previous vote as the days pass and with experience of the Tory cuts that are ongoing and more to come they will change.

      SNP x 2

      Ian Murray: Photo alert!

      “There is no doubt the Labour Party across the UK absolutely gets Scotland but Kez is ultimately the leader in Scotland and running the campaign. She will be putting forward the policy, direction and strategy.”

      He said Mr Corbyn’s mandate in Scotland was huge with the party doubling in size to around 34,000.

      There you are then a laugh and a lie to start off the morning.

    117. galamcennalath says:

      From Twitter. Exactly why we need Indy ASAP

    118. The Isolator says:

      deewal @ 6.15

      Seriously? Not enough face palms for me,sorry but withdrawing our democratically elected representatives from Parliament is ridiculous FFS .I’ve just spent 40 years of my life gettin them elected and you want them to withdraw like Sinn fuckin Fein?

      Aye right!

    119. Naina Tal says:

      Re trust in Journalists. It’s not only trust that has fallen: it’s their numbers as well as sales plummet (well documented on Wings!). Just yesterday I got a lot of what you might call junk mail stuffed in my letter box. I’m registered at the post office not to receive junk mail. So I was puzzled.

      Guess what? It wasn’t the postie but a “civilian” who put the crap in my door. Thing is his van was clearly signwritten as belonging to Johnston Press. It would seem they still need the revenue they used to get from “inclusions”, even though they aren’t selling enough papers. So they’ve just cut out the nasty bit!

      Catch 22?

    120. Free Scotland says:

      According to David Cameron, the UK has broad shoulders, broad enough to deal with all sorts of economic ups and downs. The number of people who still believe that must surely be shrinking by the day.

    121. Ken500 says:

      Mddle class were getting tax breaks to put money in pensions.

      When people take a lump sum 25% is tax free. People put in pension funds (tax exempt).When they get their pensions, they pay tax on pensions. Women who miss out on pension rights still get benefits (more?). Women still get pension rights on (former) husbands pension contribution. Women who worked P/T were ill advised by the Gov to pay lower stamp contibution.

      £180+ Gov pension should be paid to end the need for additional benefits. Intended flat rate £140?

    122. Nana says:

      Wee ginger dug’s ‘poem’ is brilliant. William Duguid’s Macaroni pie is rather fine too!

    123. Ken500 says:

      Sinn Fein still get £Million in Westminster expenses. NI get subsidised for bigotry. The Unionists destroyed their own economy. Unionist votes supporting the Tories at Westminster. NI raises £28Billion gets £14Billion. Ulster 2Million (pop) gets £42Billion. Will they vote to reunite?

    124. Wasn’t it strange that when bettertogether were frightening older people into believing that they wouldn’t get their pension if Scotland became independent.

      They made no mention of Gordon Brown had robbed people of their retirement with his £5 billion a year tax raid on the dividends of occupational pension fund dividends and that he also presided over the demise of final salary pension scheme.

    125. Ken500 says:

      People have criticised NO’s, – elderly and English people. Claimed many elderly would relocate.

    126. Nana says:

      O/T links

      We demand GPs only decide who is fit to go back to work, not the DWP!

      MOD condemned for callous disregard of public safety after sending nuke convoy across Scotland in snow storm

    127. Nana says:

      I believe the bbc has told the bbc that there is no one from the bbc available for interview regarding the Dame Janet Smith report.

      Perhaps CallKaye would like to interview herself.

    128. Ken500 says:

      @ Telegraph

      Pearson’s (Herald) issues profit warning. To cut 4,000 jobs. (worldwide?)

    129. Joemcg says:

      Whilst not making sweeping statements blaming the over 55’s I agree with other posters that engaging in debate with this section while manning the yes stalls was a fruitless mission heard them umpteen times parroting shite they heard in the media en masse very aggressive they were too. The younger no’s I found we’re willing to listen so I do have sympathy with the “blame the oldies” mantra on here because there is truth in that.

    130. CameronB Brodie says:

      I also came across a lot of closed minds and it was depressing. I was even told “we shouldn’t talk about these things (independence), in public”. That’s where the encouragement comes in to play. ‘Cringe’ therapy, if you like. 🙂

    131. Naina Tal says:

      I say blame the Nawbags whitever age, or imagined group they belonged to. Pensioners? Churnalists? Furriners? Re-locators? Masons? Ludge members? Kaffliks? Proddies? Fitba supporters? Pigeon fanciers? Jiners? Plumbers? Folk wi ridd hair? Fat fowk? Skinny fowk? Fowk wi bandy legs and skelly eyes?

    132. Andrew McLean says:

      Great quote from Alex Massie of all people on bitter little unionists on Wings Twitter page

      “They didn’t want the fight in the first place; now they understand that it will never end until they have lost it”

      Yes the fight is to the death it will never end until we have our nation free, in other words do you hear the clock ticking on your demise you crabbit little unionists. wave you little flags and stick your ukok and no thanks posters up your arses. Your days are numbered its just a matter of time and you know that as well as we do. And that is exactly why you are nasty little men, holding on to a past that never existed, whilst we continue to ascertain our right, and will forever endure!

      Now in the American Declaration of Independence number one in the list of evidence of Westminster’s intransigence was this “He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.” the amendments put by the SNP to the Scotland Act were completely rebuffed, the British Labour party complicit in this as were the British Liberal and British Conservative members! All three giggling together like naughty schoolboys as they pissed on our country, yes our country Scotland.

      Only very slightly changed (three words) but this stands as true today!

      “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.-
      Such has been the patient sufferance of these (Scotland); and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present (Parliament) of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over (Scotland).”

    133. CameronB Brodie says:

      Of course, some minds will always remain closed, no matter what. 😉

    134. Andrew McLean says:

      Soon be time to begin our own!
      And to hell with the lords pretending a new act of union!

    135. Drat I missed the typo in my last post, the use of the word dividends twice in the same sentence.

      Anyway there will always be those with closed minds, the I’m aright jacks and to hell with everyone else.

      In 2014 during the referendum I met an elderly woman who was pleased that she had her free bus pass, free prescriptions, winter fuel payments etc.

      But she was not only totally opposed to independence, she also claimed that the young get everything.

      The irony of her own comment was lost on her.

    136. Breastplate says:

      @ Call Me Dave, it looks like we could be in the medals if they ever made child poverty an Olympic sport

    137. Robert Peffers says:

      @CameronB Brodie says: 21 January, 2016 at 10:29 am:

      ” … Of course, some minds will always remain closed, no matter what. ?”

      Thing is, CameronB, There are minds that were never open in the first place.

      These would seem to be fitted with combination locks and their owners have forgotten the combination numbers.

    138. Breastplate says:

      Sorry, that should have been to Galamcennalath

    139. Joemcg says:

      Naina-maybe I’m being paranoid but if that’s a wee dig at me I’m telling you I actually manned these “barricades” for months and it’s true the most combative and unwilling to bend WERE the older age group. Cameron is right the attitude was we should not even have been campaigning it was an affront to some of these people. God knows what’s wrong with a lot of the oldies. Indoctrination?

    140. Breastplate says:

      Naina Tal, I agree except for that last group of course:)

    141. CameronB Brodie says:

      Robert Peffers
      Indeed Robert, some might even suggest this is a desired state of affairs, if you support the status quo. We certainly don’t appear to have a corporate media that is willing and able to INFORM. Then again, they speak for interests that are self-serving and largely anti-democratic, so perhaps its too much to expect impartiality or honesty.

    142. Dr Jim says:

      @Naina Tal

      Absolutely, and they’m ye jist don’t like the looky

      Gaun Yirsel

    143. Dorothy Devine says:

      OT but it looks like the ” West” ,meaning us and our bestest pals across the pond, are trying to start a war with Russia.

      We have Fallon saying he will send more military personnel to Eastern Europe to combat ” Russian aggression”

      Not to mention the accusation that Putin is ” probably ” responsible for Litvinenko’s death.

      I read this in the Independent but no comment is allowed otherwise I would have pointed out the UK/US is responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths in the Middle East.

      P.S By contrast the Saville story is quite small.

    144. Anddrew McLean says:

      @Naina Tal
      I fall into 5 category’s soon to be 6 your point is 🙂

    145. Dr Jim says:

      You can only educate those who want to be educated
      The Yoons don’t want to be educated by the likes of us even when they know they’re wrong

      They’ll come to the right decision in time but pointing out to them that they’re “Dicks” definitely doesn’t seem to help

      Maybe it’s just all down to patience
      The Yoons are like petulant kids who refuse to do what’s good for them even when they know it, so they’ll keep they’re tantrum up till they think we’re not looking and then get it right and claim it was all their own idea
      and our idea of Independence wasn’t the right one anyway

      Any day now we’ll see a new plan for Independence thunk up by Yoons which’ll be exactly the same as our idea but they get the credit for it
      If we fight they’ll get their backs up further
      If they think they gave us something, they’ll feel better in their wee minds that they, and only they made the right choice for Scotland and the Scottish people

      And we’ll all go….Aye Right…Sigh

    146. Fred says:

      Lesley Riddoch excellent in todays Nash on the land issue debate, why-o-why are the SNP dragging their feet on this issue to the extent that Slab’s Sarah Boyack & Patrick Harvie are more radical than the government. The result appears to be a bit of a dogs breakfast, mebbeys aye, mebbeys naw! as Lesley says.

      There are no votes to be lost by being timid & forelock-tugging on this scandalous running-sore of an issue. We need somebody with fire in their belly to run with this, the great pity is that Andy Wightman isn’t inside the tent pishin oot, instead of the reverse!

    147. Fred says:

      Correction, there are no votes to be “won” by being timid!

      The conference saw Nicky MacKinnon tell the government to go away & think again on this so lets have it!

    148. galamcennalath says:

      Re grouping NO voters. That last poll, about a week ago. Can’t remember off hand.

      However, it had a breakdown of how people would vote next time by all sorts of criteria.

      55+, as always highlighted. Also women would vote No, men Yes. SEG AB are No, while CDE are Yes. Then there’s regional breakdown, high Yes Glasgow, high No Borders etc. Then place of birth etc..

      Here’s the INPORTANT thing, it is never anything like 100% in any group. It’s more like 60:40 or 55:45 either way in most comparisons. In EVERY group at least a third vote Yes.

      Identifying who voted No, statistically, should not be an excuse to blame that whole group. It should be looked at as an opportunity because those are the people who need to be convinced to switch. We only need to convert a few percent in each demographic group!

    149. Les Wilson says:

      Pensions in the UK are not fully funded, in the respect that there is no separated fund to which they can turn to in a financial armageddon.

      Pensions are funded by current tax take by the Treasury, no financial back up, no safety net, no separated pot available.
      As the world Financial position gets worse, and it will.
      Pension supply will become more shaky. There is a real risk to pensions within the UK.

      Bring in UK debt levels,and indeed unfunded debts it makes the UK very financially weak, one of the weakest of major currencies.The total debt is huge and unattainable thus very dangerous to the well being of all our people.

      Pensioners in Scotland need to be of no doubt of the risks of them of believing Westminster hype and lies, to their own detriment.

    150. r esquierdo says:

      The worse is yet to come. Pensions will be means tested within the next decade and those with a private pension will have some or all of their state pension taken away.

    151. Naina Tal says:

      To other posters: not having a dig at anyone. Just saying you could find other statistical groups which you could “blame”. I’m not making any point other than that, though I’ve never thought blame was a worthy trait.

      Some of my best friends have bowly legs, skelly eyes, are freemasons, fitba supporters etc. etc. Or any one or more of these! Don’t think any of them are in the O.O.(“Ludge”) though.

      Some voted Naw, Some voted Aye. Dinnae ken hoo or if the ithers voted!

    152. yesindyref2 says:

      There is a point in ana;ysing a particular demographic such as the elderly, and that’s with a view of targetting them with specific tailored information to get their attention and open their minds.

      That’s the only point, anything else is urinary emission in atmospheric movement.

    153. Petra says:

      @ Robert Peffers says at 11:56 pm ….’Currency situation.’

      Robert thanks for taking the time to post a great deal of information some of which, once again, I was unaware of (another Peffers post for my archives!).

      Our discussion related to who has claim over Sterling and you outlined the situation extremely well indeed such as ”It really should be done via the Scottish legal system, Petra, but can we trust it to do its duty to Scotland’s Sovereign people?”

      Will they get involved Robert? If not I just hope that if there is a debate next time round, Indyref2, Nicola will put forward some of the points that you have highlighted such as that ”England doesn’t own the Bank of England ….. it remains an independent company wholly owned by the UK NOT English Taxpayer”. Legitimise her statements. It’s not good enough to stand and state repeatedly that the ‘Pound’ is ours too. That sort of rhetoric is totally unconvincing for many.

      You say that ”It is in the best interests of both to continue with a currency union but, if either of the former partners cannot thole such an arrangement, it is that partner who must adopt a new currency. Neither can dictate to the other what they needs do.”

      Would that mean that if Scotland wanted to hold onto Sterling, have a currency union, and England didn’t they (England) would have to adopt a new currency?

      Also interesting to read that ”the Westminster Parliament building itself also belongs to the taxpayers of the Entire United Kingdom.”

      I wonder then will this be used to ‘barter’ property from either side of the border when we get our Independence?

      ”It is also a myth that only the Kingdom of England owns all the assets and debits, including the existing debt. Nor does it own the Civil Service, or the navy, army and air force or the Bank of England.”

      Would that apply to military equipment too such as aircraft, helicopters, tanks, ships and so on? Would we be entitled to a 9 / 10% share?

      @ ScottieDog says at 10:56 pm …. ‘Currency.’

      ScottieDog many thanks for replying to my post. I’ve been extremely busy but will read your link re. experimenting with local and regional currencies and download the book …. when I get time. How much of it I’ll understand I don’t know?!

      You say that ”Scotland should be innovating now with money so that the step towards a sovereign currency as part of an independence campaign is naturally our plan A.”

      Let’s hope that this is being ‘worked on’ behind the scenes right now ScottieDog.

    154. twathater says:

      @ Petra v big round of applause, Joe mac Naina was only ripping the pee Cadogan too true, I am an auld git but I voted for indy I also vote SNP but I have elderly neighbours and younger neighbours and friends who voted NO because they feared the disruption and uncertainty, also they probably believed the lies put forward by BT, it won’t do our cause any benefit to bad mouth certain sections

      I vote SNP as I said but I am vehemently against some of their policies e.g. EU membership, immigration, but I am willing to put my objections aside until independence, thereafter I will decide if I agree with their governance.

      What I am concerned about is the elaborately explained situation regarding sterling, put forward by Robert P, that we have joint ownership of sterling and the BOE. Surely AS knows this or should have,why then when asked by shit for brains Darling did he not just tell him to FO and when Darling said Osborne and Co would’nt let us use the pound why did’nt he just explain as Robert P did that we have every right as written in law to do as we please

    155. K1 says:

      Well he, Alex repeatedly did say that it was ‘oor currency’ as much as rUK’s. But this was constantly belittled or undermined in the corpmedia. Eventually Darling did admit ‘that of course’ iScotland could use the pound during the Kelvingrove second debate wi Alex.

      It was pushed and pushed by the media over and over ‘what’s your plan B’, no matter how much debunking took place by all on the Indy side, the superior ‘air power’ of the corpmedia kept bombing the people wi that ‘meme’.


    156. Craig says:

      “Almannysbunnet says:
      21 January, 2016 at 12:58 am
      Craig says:
      20 January, 2016 at 11:09 pm
      You know what? Good, let George steal their pensions,

      Problem is Gideon is going after your pension. He’s not going after current pensioners. Read the story. He is going after middle aged people saving for their future pensions.

      Stop lumping all pensioners together! I didn’t see many pensioners in George Square wrapped in the butcher’s apron terrorising yes supporters. I’ll tell you where I do see them though, at every single SNP local meeting I go to, at the party’s national convention in Aberdeen, trudging the streets handing out yes leaflets leading up to September 2014 and SNP leaflets up to May 2015.
      It makes as much sense as blaming all women because 57% voted no or all the people living in Scotland but born in England, Wales or N Ireland because 72% of them voted no.
      53% of 40-59 year olds voted no, 45% of 25-39 year olds voted no, 51% of 16-24 year olds voted no.
      Whichever age group you’re in, go after those no voters and try convince them to change. Perpetuating the myth that the pensioners, all by themselves, lost the referendum is lazy argument.”

      You will note that I didn’t actually point the finger at the “Pensioners”. As you correctly pointed out “it’s our pensions” that Gideon is after and I am in the 40-59 age group.

      We in this age group will be more than likely be parents of children who have their own kids thus being “the grandweans”.

      I opted out of the pension scheme 20 years ago as I will never reach retirement age and I don’t have kids.

      So in response to me saying read the story properly, may I politely suggest that you read between the lines 😉

    157. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers, @Petra
      That’s amazing, I never knew about the burning of the Palace of Westminster in 1834 until I googled it.

      It’s all an interesting point, property and ownership of the property in Law – and what “Law” it is that applies. Generally speaking though this comes under the Vienna Convention of Succssion of States in respect of Treaties 1978 and similar in respect of Identity and Property. The UK is partly signed up and ratified, but not completely.

      But some countries are signatories, some aren’t, and some are signatories but haven’t ratified many of these UN conventions – for instance Israel from memory has signed but not ratitfied the Chemical Weapons Convention whereas the vast vast majority of countries including now Syria, have.

      The other problem is that even with this there really is no such thing as “International Law”, though many firmly refer to it and knock down opposing views with apparent quotations from it. There’s also no totally legitimate universally recognised International Court of Justice to prove or judge cases under such International Law, though the ICJ does hear cases.

      It all does indeed come down to “Realpolitik”, where some, many or nearly all of the Independent States (if they are recognised themselves such as Macedonia which is disputed by Greece over ownerhsip of the name!!!) accept or dispute claims of perhaps a newly independent State.

      It’s why all UK Government documents use the term “Continuing UK” to stake their claim to all the assets, both tangible and intangible like the currency Sterling. On the other hand convention has it that thereby they also take all the debt unless the seceding state (Scotland) decides to take some of it – possibly in exchange for movable assets. Generally fixed assets such as buildings go with the territory – but that’s also by Convention.

      Scotland is also of course entitled to reject the UK’s claim to be the Continuing UK, and could I guess even counter-clain to the the Continuing UK (and as Robert says, own the currency and BoE). I like to use that one to Unionist posters in a GIRFUY.

      On the other hand India nationalised companies such as IBM in 1978 which for about 14 years refused to have anything to do with India, though it’s back now in strength, so there’s also “force majeure”. Which sometimes works – and sometimes doesn’t. It worked in the case of India because with 1 billion of a population and an emerging huge market, companies and hence States and Governments want to do business with it.

      Realpolitiks indeed.

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