Partial freedom
We had to give the BBC a nudge before it replied to the last of our three Freedom Of Information requests, but at least this time we didn’t just get the standard fob-off.
We don’t know much about the internal structures of the BBC, but it seems likely that with 11 “grades” of staff, restricting information to only Grade 1 senior management isn’t going to give away a great deal. It certainly means that someone with enough of a political interest to become leader of one of the main Holyrood political parties within just a couple of years of leaving the BBC, for example, wouldn’t have had their party affiliations revealed to licence-fee payers.
This site has never demanded that journalists and broadcasters be “neutral”, even when funded by the state. They’re human beings, they vote like anyone else, and it’s silly to expect human beings to not let their beliefs affect what they do. But given that reality, it’s problematic to pretend that people are unbiased when they’re not.
All we’ve ever asked is that people don’t distort the facts in news reporting. Opinion columns and commentary are another matter. Wings Over Scotland doesn’t claim to be a news site, and we certainly don’t claim to be impartial. We back up all our factual assertions with links to verifiable sources, but our interpretation of those facts (or if you prefer, spin) can be viewed and weighed by readers in the full and unconcealed knowledge of which side we’re on.
We don’t think it’s unreasonable to believe that the same should be true of other journalists. Some recent letters to readers from Scottish newspaper editors have revealed that they draw little, if any, distinction between news reporters and opinion columnists. That’s fine. As we’ve just said, we’re no fans of the pretence of neutrality.
But if people aren’t neutral – and especially where we’re forced by law to pay their wages – we’re not sure it serves democracy to hide where their loyalties lie.
I’m intrigued by the inherent contradiction in answering the question as regards senior management grades, and refusing to disclose for grades 2-11 under Data Protection.
Data Protection legislation has often been used erroneously in the past and I’d be surprised if it applied in this instance. The declaration of Personal Interest is required and the BBC is a publicly funded body, after all.
I’m happy to be corrected on this.
I would like to write a reply to this but due to the fact there is a ‘Y’ in the name of the day I am afraid we cannot due to the CannaeGetUsTaeTellYouHeeHaw Act 2013
O/T Seems the moneysavingexpert.com poll is onto a ‘social media’ campaign distorting the vote and to ‘take the result with a pinch of salt’
Seems to me the FOI Act is not much use when it comes to opaque bureaucracies like the BBC.
Can we get independant confirmation of the staff grades statement being accurate?
chalks,
I heard there was a social media campaign by the NO side before ‘late Moday evening’, so we really ought to take the results up ’til then ‘with a pinch of salt’
Next time they should just tell us the result they expect without going to the bother of actually holding the poll.
@MochaChoca
Patronising fk’ers eh
Thinking about their response, it implies that there’s someone at grade 2 who had made a declaration, that they want to hide.
o/t. this is the most amazing article you will ever read.
http://harddawn.com/why-america-must-say-no-to-scotlands-independence-from-great-britain/
It is a really odd grade structure. It would seem to classify only board directors as “senior management” and not their direct reports.
In any organisation I have worked in, someone with a direct reporting line to a board director is part of the senior management. Maybe the BBC has a massive number of grade 1 directors – which may partly explain the £3.6 billion budget.
Its good to see that the BBC in Scotland is keeping upto date. The BDG was disbanded months ago.
Can you imagine MP’s or their offices, or the parliamentary authorities, giving such a response to the press and media on a FoI request?
Naw. We dont have any cabinet ministers under this category and we’re no’ telling you about the other 635.
They are obviously hiding something!
chalks,
This is a poll with a self-selecting constituency. It won’t tell us much about the views of the population at large. BUT, assuming only those with strong views bothered to vote in the poll, it does tell us something about relative numbers of those strong views on both sides – which confirms my belief that there are many more strong yesses than noes. But we knew the no vote was soft, didn’t we?
O/T Thought this was quite funny:
“Alex Salmond, stop this Scottish independence crap! – The Revolution Will Be Televised – BBC”
http://rx.hu/1TVD
@Rev Stu
Those last four paras? Hammer, nail, head.
David
That is old news, discussed here the other day, general consensus is that its a spoof
BTW Mr Cameron in China is showing great technical knowledge in the Oil Industry by telling his Chinese hosts that if they want the UK can dig them an oil well!!!!
Elizabeth, thanks for that. Hilarious. Salmond is a pretty good sport.
That is old news, discussed here the other day, general consensus is that its a spoof
thankyou. didnt realise
@david (1:16)
From the same site: “Are Militant Atheists Using Chemtrails to Poison the Angels in Heaven?”
I think you’ve stumbled across the US edition of the Daily Record.
and veering sharply off topic, here’s a fun article, which should get all those global socialists (the “but what about poverty elsewhere” guys) support:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/01/scotland-vote-yes-scottish-independence?CMP=twt_gu
I wince at the uneven line spacing before and after “Appeal Rights”. Get your MSWord act together, Ian Small!
Mildly O/T
The Neil report into the BBC’s journalism was published in 2004 after the Hutton controversy and unanimously accepted by the then governors. I can’t find the full text on the web, but extracts are to be found here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctrust/assets/files/pdf/review_report_research/impartiality_21century/g_neil_report_extracts.txt
There are several illuminating quotes to do with impartiality, in particular this:
“The BBC’s news and current affairs journalism will never campaign, but pursue journalistically valid issues and stories, without giving undue prominence to any one agenda.” (my bold)
Should that not read ‘Information Policy &Denial’? 🙂
David
Not only does the link work, even the google cache page is inoperable AND the site itself is not coming up. Someone acted as soon as you noticed, so there must be something that concerns them about it being spread around, a mistake perhaps.
However, more likely is that it contained something they realised might help a YES vote. I guess, having read it prior, you will know if I am right or not?
David:
I managed to read that article.
Read like a spoof to me, but Poe’s Law warnings are possibly appropriate.
Only thing I can think of in favour of a Yes vote is that they’re worried about Poe being in full force for “Better Together”.
If their position is so rediculous that it can’t be distinguished from satire, then they might just have a small problem…
The BBC in Scotland are simply the voice of the hegemony that was Scottish Labour. They will never freely divulge anything that highlights that subservient relationship especially as that hegemony is on the wane and they may be called to account for their actions. Turkeys do not vote for Christmas.
Folks. If anybody wants to read the article David mentioned, BBC Scotlandshire have it up.
Next question: exactly how many “reporters, presenters or producers in senior management grades, working on news or current affairs programmes for BBC Scotland” are there? I’m guessing “none”…
@Illy
‘the “but what about poverty elsewhere?” guys’
I usually reply that I expect they will continue to do nothing about that too.
I have received a response to my complaint regarding BBC Scotland’s total blanking of Mr Sarwar’s non-appearance at the Bedroom Tax vote in the ‘Commons’ and the subsequent demo outside his constituency office. It’s probably worth quoting:
‘The Debate to which you refer had its division at 7pm…after Reporting Scotland’… the story was carried online, making the point that, in a paired debate, there had been twice as many Coalition absentees as Labour ones and reporting the criticisms of Labour as well as carrying their responses’ It then carries on thus :’The debate that day was a UK one, not exclusively Scottish’..it then goes on to how ‘our Westminster staff’ reported matters such as ‘International Development Select Comittee about the implications of Scottish Independence and the potential closure of the Overseas Dev. Agency in E.K. and the appearance of the Scottish Secretary and the Defence Minister Andrew Murrison at the Scottish Affairs Select Committee, reporting the latter’s claim that removing Trident from Scotland would be ‘murderously expensive’ (their quotation).
It concludes with the kiss-off ‘I am confident that our treatment of the many events that day at Westminster was as even-handed and comprehensive as you have every right to expect’.
This is the latest condescending and blatantly insulting response that I have received from ‘BBC Complaints’. What is interesting that they admit the’ paired’ procedure was in place for the vote, so they must know that in advance do they not? It must have been common knowledge that he was in Pakistan before the vote? They also did not respond to my question why the eviction of a woman, the first in Scotland, for non-payment of the bedroom tax, in his constituency and with a demo outside his office ,was not worthy of Reporting Scotland’s coverage?
What is interesting in this response is the idea that repeating a whole load of anti-Scottish Independence tosh from Westminster ( Andrew Murrison and Basher Davidson’s committee? FFS!) confirms the ‘even-handed’ reportage. I’ve now written with a formal complaint to the BBC trust and I’ve asked them what happened to AS dossier of complaints handed into them last year? Don’t hold your breath!
David, I didn’t know that America was registered to vote in Scotland. (I don’t think continents move at quite that speed.)
my experience with pay grading suggests that the higher the grade, the higher the pay. You always want to leave “room at the top” for higher salaries (assuming “you” are a careerist greedhead). So 2 would be the lowest grade, and the numbers above 11 would be the secret stratospheric grades. I imagine there is no grade 1 to make 2s feel better about themselves, and to leave room for the creation of a new serf class.
a little googling turns this up, confirming the theory:
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/foi/classes/disclosure_logs/rfi20110278_pay_scales_lowest_paid_staff.pdf
Elizabeth says
Brilliant – shows the metal of the man that is leading Scotland (Aye ah can take a joke lads).
Do you remember ‘Brass Eye and ‘Cake’ (all the muppets that fell for that)
Now think Lamont / Davidson & Rennie ( how would that ahve come out – taps on ??)
How about instead of asking for individual details you ask for a meta view of all organisations people have declared they have interests with (with numbers of each)? That’s not going to identify people individually which is the Data Protection bit being referred to in my opinion, but it is going to give an overall view of what the staff at the organisation as a whole are linked to… That’s a much trickier one to avoid.
For what it’s worth, I don’t want individual journalists being outed with stuff that doesn’t have any effect on their job (which I think a lot of this stuff would be, ie what church someone belongs to has every chance of being included, what football team they support if they do any stuff with them etc). It opens them up to criticism from sections of society who are focused on the non relevant bit relating to their job.
Also, if you’re up for it, how about asking how many FOI requests the BBC get, and how many are replied to with the information requested (in part or in full)… Perhaps also ask for a breakdown of what grounds they have used to not answer FOI requests. That might well give you a better demonstration of their lack of accountability than this imo.
There’s a raft of Knighthoods, OBE’s, CBE’s and bars, floating purposefully around the BBC from the Top , the BBC Trust, to the faces behind the News ….. Acceptance of this monarchical currency of privilege is an emphatic and public declaration of current and future loyalties …. God save the Empire .. Love Live the Queen!
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1268413_768022126547860_1570735255_o.jpg
The Hard Dawn thing is pretty funny. Who says the Americans don’t do irony? It is played very straight and very Tea Party but that just makes it all the funnier.
Based on my employers’ pay scale, chances are the grade 1s are either secretarial roles or roles such as cleaners and technicians – with 2 starting at the first level of having personal responsibility for news/programme-related output.
And for “Hard Dawn” – the tag line on the site is “Because Morning In America Won’t Be Easy”. Surely, based on the penile pun of the name, they mean “Because Getting Up In The Morning In America Won’t Be Easy”?
Hard Dawn is a spoof website satirising the American religious right. It’s actually very funny. It seems to be offline at the moment, but I don’t think it’s any sort of conspiracy – it is JUST possible the site hath been smited by an Angel of the Lord, but I don’t think that’s very plausible.
If you’re a fan of Hard Dawn’s humour, you might also enjoy Betty Bowers, America’s Best Christian. http://www.bettybowers.com/ Love the sinner, hate their clothes!
Then there’s the incomparable Landover Baptist Church (motto: Abstinence makes the church grow fondlers.) http://www.landoverbaptist.org/
You can’t really gleen much from that reply, other than they don’t want to reveal much at all, I’d like to think their are staff at the Scottish BBC who will vote YES to independence come September.
These people may have to play their cards close to their chest, due to BBC’s position of opposing independence, in other words to be seen promoting or speaking out in favour of independence at the Scottish BBC could get you reprimanded, or even fired.
To add to this if you have a family and a mortgage, as many do, it would be foolish to come out and state that you intend to vote YES.
What would you do?
lol ‘ I’ll tell cameron to gie yi a job’. great line Alex,comedy gold.
I posted this in previous thread but relevant here, threads move so fast these days.
I heard that Dundee City Council have sent an email to employees that it is “against the law ” for them to express an opinion, discuss or mention the Indy Ref.
Is this the same Law as Carbuncle referred to?
I have not seen the email nor the wording, it could be part of the conditions of contract or about bringing the reputation of the Council into disrepute, but wondered how the employees feel about this edict.
I would love to hear from any employee who might be able to confirm this and get a comment on how it was received.
A bit like hearing Fred MacCauley on BBC Radio Scot stating that he was not allowed to mention the Ref.
On another note my son, in his RE Class at Madras School in St. Andrews, was told by his teacher that she would be sticking with the English and we were all better together. This was not a particular class about the Ref subject but just stated as opinion. The same teacher is now covering Hitler and fascist Germany, unrelated I would hope that she pointed out.
This issue of carte Blanche in school classes to colour discussion amongst pupils is definitely a worry. Might be tempted to address it through parents teachers council.
Another good line ‘morning Alex,welcome to britain’.Good to see a politician with a sense of humour that doesn’t rely on insults.
A work mate has a friend who works at bbc Scotland. He was told by his bosses that they would all be out of a job if Scotland gained it’s independence. So there you go. Another glimpse of what is going on down there.
Stu
Interesting article that Peat Worrier linked to.
http://strasbourgobservers.com/2013/12/03/the-press-and-ngos-right-of-access-to-official-documents-under-strict-scrutiny-of-the-european-court-of-human-rights-2/
The referendum will be over by the time the exemption of the BBC from the FOI legislation would get anywhere, but perhaps the FOI Act is illegal in terms of Human Rights.
O/T, I’ve just come from the Scotsman comments threads and the sheer negativity of the astroturfers on there was sucking all life and optimism out of me. Have come back here for some battery recharging!
The Scotsman seems to have a dozen or so resident Doom Sayers that just never let up. Some of the comments are so similar you sometimes wonder if it is just three people down at Blythswood Square giving it laldy.
Hmm. ‘Details of any such declarations’ could reasonably be considered ‘personal data’ so they do seem to have a get out. If you asked for anonymous statistics about how many journalists and freelances they have in total, and how many have declared membership or support of each political party, they would have to squirm a lot harder to get out of it – it wouldn’t be possible to attach an affiliation to any individual so it’s not personal data (unless of course the whole lot of them are members of one certain party……).
Andrew Morton
Dont read yesterdays Herald then.
D torrance in bed with Ann McKechin over no need for independence if Labour get back in Westminster and retrun NHS and Welfare to former glory. Snake Oil peddlers
Torrance what a feable wee piece of shit – see that whole Think Scotland Website
Jesus depressing about just how little folk think of their homeland !!
There’s always The Onion for a bit of American satire…
http://www.theonion.com/articles/scotland-may-secede-from-uk-in-2014,29952/
If you find the Scotsman offensive don’t go near it. The NAYsayers will only post when they know YESsers are on it. Likewise the Herald – I read from some people to give the Sunday Herald a chance. If you believe they are being impartial you are in for a big shock when they reveal their true colours in about say 6 months. In the meantime you are contributing to keeping them alive!
@ Bill McLean 3 December at 6.12pm
Exactly
The Herald/Scotsman sites are a shambles. Like Groundhog day, every day. Don’t watch BBC etc. It just keeps the biased programmes going. Viewers or readers just keep them going.
The Record was slagging off NNS.
Lying is MSM trademark.
Many are on trial in London. Perjury was committed in Scotland. They think they are above the Law.
In all fairness there can’t be that many Scottish Conservatives. I’m fairly sure I saw Ruth Davidson begging for election candidates to come forward via Twitter the other week. If that’s what she’s reduced to it’s hardly surprising she took the leadership so quickly.
With respect to the actual FOI request. The BBC do have a valid point. They must take account of the data protection principles. Failing to do so could see them being fined quite a lot of money. I am fairly certain however they could have given some information without being completely opaque. For example if one registers a conflict of interest. Then one generally expects that register to be open to scrutiny. That’s the whole point of such registers.
Getting around FOI requests isn’t hard. You don’t even need to know how to work the rules. All you need are the right language skills. Use enough jargon and buzzwords and any excuse will sound valid.
Gordoz
Yes, I posted on that story to the effect that if she had Scotland’s interests at heart she’d be urging them to stay rather than, as I suspect, urging them to go.
New post from Bateman:
http://derekbateman1.wordpress.com/2013/12/03/generation-x-3/comment-page-1/#comment-2570
Great piece on indy vis à vis the disabled here:
http://disabilitynewsservice.com/2013/12/scottish-independence-a-lifeboat-for-disabled-people-drowning-in-sea-of-cuts/
Live stream on Al Jazeera at 7.30 re indy
http://stream.aljazeera.com/story/201312032010-0023224
@Andrew Morton
Re the Scotsman and Herald articles. I know many disagree about visiting these sites but I’m not one of them. No point in keeping your head in the sand, may as well find out what the other sides arguments are and what their worth.
Not sure if they receive anything other than an increase in their page hits, doubtful if they make any money from my visits as i don’t click any links. My point is though, there are a few regular posters on the Scotsman in particular who’s support for a No vote can be shot down very easily. So why not do it?
People like me read the comments in the MSM articles before I even found my way here. It was the positive comments from the Yes side in these articles that opened the door to Wings for me.
Others may be in the same boat, a positive view for Yes wherever published is still a positive view, at least that’s my belief.
@lanarkist
Since a number of people have mentioned this, I contacted the GTC because I wasn’t sure if they had issued guidelines about the indy ref.
Below is the reply I received.
‘As this is an employment issue, our advice is to contact the headteacher in the first instance and if there is not a satisfactory resolution at that stage, it should be escalated to the local authority, GTC Scotland cannot be involved at this stage. (My bold.)
Education Scotland have produced advice on this area which you will find on their website at http://www.educationscotland.gov.uk/‘
Personally I think they haven’t thought about it as this will be the first time this situation has arisen.
But it is worrying and needs to be addressed – it seems to me to be morally wrong – a teacher should have no right to influence pupils in this way.
PS they provided the website but I can’t see anything specific to indy ref.
Andrew Morton
Just watching that plonker Greg Pilo of Strathclyde Uni on Al Jazeera
Now Neil Finley spouting that an independent Scotland would not be progressive and is pushing for more devolution
http://stream.aljazeera.com/
O/T I know but on a business model basis can’t understand why any failing Newspaper in Scotland would not try in their last hurrah coming out for YES to see if circulation would increase as a result and as such save them.
Thought the owners would be true business men at heart and driven by the dollar.
But then Im forgetting the no brainer stiff upper lip britishness of Scots Unionist journalists & the romance / glory of going to the wall for blighty.
Forgot how committed & dim our left wing & right wing journos are. But ehn again reading Torrance etall recently brings it all home.
If a YES vote occurs they will all shuffle off down south to their ancestral homeland anyway, so they win either way.
In case of a NO vote all’s well in their world & stuff the masses who have been lied to. Still strange that none are willing to break ranks on this.
@ gordoz
It’s the advertisers that are stopping them breaking ranks. It truly would be a Last Hurrah if they came out for Indy and the advertisers left in droves. But what I’m not clear about is why they think that would be the case. Have they surveyed their advertisers? I doubt it. I expect it’s just that the bean counters have told editorial not to rock the boat on any account and take no risks.
That Greg Philo is completely out of touch, advocating that independence is all about an ‘oil grab’ is he for real?
Loved Robins’ passion there.I really feel this can be done.
Edward looking at the twitter feed came upon this.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BQ60wk3CcAAdxdq.jpg
The ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM Which is being allowed to take root is the fact that whether we vote YES or NO, things are going to change DRAMATICALLY!
YES – We the people of scotland will decide tax, pension, social payments, social policy, health
Charges, free education etc.
NO – THE TORIES BACKED UP BY LABOUR & LIBS ARE TELLING EVERYBODY WHO WILL
LISTEN, MEANS TESTING BENEFITS, NHS CHARGING, NHS PRIVATISATION, BARNET
FORMULA, DESTRUCTION OF HOLYROOD. etc.
People think if they vote no things will just continue ambling along, nothing is going to change. This belief is false but nobody seems to want to rock the boat. Why is yes not highlighting this Elephant in the room.
@Papadocx
They have started to talk about the consequences of a No vote. However, surely it is better to do this more extensively next year when more of the electorate are paying attention?
Cjmasta 4:36
Don’t think your mates job is in any danger, but would suggest with his bosses attitude his job must be doubtful!
Private advertising in a loo;
http://t.co/sLR9LwcF8y
Mutely79 8:52
you are correct muttley, I just get very frustrated listening to all the crap the no camp seem to get away with. Will just take a pill and go for a wee lie down. Roll on the spring.
Severely O/T
Just we wee reminder that Yes West Lothian’s ‘Evening with Nicola’ is tomorrow, 7pm Almondvale Suite, Livingston stadium. I doubt she’ll be in velociraptor mode, more’s the pity, just answering questions on the white paper from all and sundry. Anyone who can come along is welcome – but bring someone who is still on the fence with you if you can. And it would be extra good to have a few first-time voters.
@Marcia surely that’s public?
Here’s a bit of fun.
Please vote YES.
http://archive.is/VWhrn
thepnr – with great respect I still disagree with you re posting on Scotsman and Herald/Sunday Herald. Newspapers use the number of posts to attract advertising. If you fight for YES on these rags you must have realized by now that it’s nearly all the same posters all the time. Both sides are committed and they are not going to change! Imagine OBE becoming a nationalist? Imagine Terry Kelly becoming a nationalist? These people refuse to see the benefit that independence would bring to Scotland – they have been brainwashed, like many others, by British bullshit. Known all over the world for it’s pervasive, insidious hypocrisy. I posted and wrote letters to the Scotsman for years and occasionally to the Herald – apart from releasing my own frustration nothing positive happened. The same nationalists and the same unionists continued the same way. Posting pays for the papers!
cynicalHighlander
‘Who wants to be a Trilionaire’ un-bloody-believable! Th ereal reason these leeches in Westminster want to keep their claws into Scotland
They have started to talk about the consequences of a No vote
Yes, everything is now in place. The Edinburgh Agreement paves the way for a smooth transition with the white paper presenting the case for independence. YesScotland will now campaign on this over the coming months, with intensity increasing up to polling day.
It is now up to the pro-union campaign to present their case for the union to counter the independence one. People will be looking for an equivalent to the white paper, but for the union. Firm plans for more devolution, information on Scottish Government funding, what cuts there will be etc.
I’m not sure the pro-union campaign have realised this fully. The ball is actually on their side of the court. It would appear they haven’t noticed it though.
@Edward
Of course it is as oil is the fuel of the current global economy but people just don’t realise that everything they touch has a connection to oil for instance 7 -10 calories of oil go into every single calorie of food they eat.
Mildly O/T
Do any of you plutocrats out there have a subscription to the FT? There seems to be an article about Tories turning on Alistair Darling, and I’d really like to read it! (or bits of it)
Here’s the link:
http://tinyurl.com/qg9qpyd
There seems to be an article about Tories turning on Alistair Darling
Oh no way. Soon I’ll start believing in SS’s harebrained theories...
🙂
@kininvie
http://archive.is/usO8N
Are you in Kininvie area by the way?
@Bill McLean
Fair point Bill and if I believed I was somehow rewarding their poor excuses for journalism I would not go.
No way do I want them to be paid because I visit their site but my understanding was like most web sites, the site is normally paid for clicking on the advertisments. Otherwise why would advertisers pay?
I do see some merit in fighting the bile spouted by some commenters and that is what I would attempt to do, because I believe that even winning the arguement on these sites is a victory of sorts.
Any suggestions as to where these “battles” can be fought to persuade the undecided would be most welcome. I really mean this, if I’m going to expend any energy online to persuade people, where might this best be achieved?
All the best.
@kininvie
It’s well worth registering for free just to read that article.
Classic!
The Sunday Herald made a committment to us several years ago and it has been true to it . That doesn’t mean it should be uncritical.
Don’t know how to do the old ‘archive thingy’……anyway interesting link to the FT (no honestly)…….on the concern Downing Street has about Ali Darling…..it appears it’s not only cybernats and Kevin McKenna who noticed how poor and vacuous he was last week.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/34bf91ec-5c47-11e3-b4f3-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2mS3BZSNi
Edited highlights….
Darling under Tory fire over Scottish campaign
Alistair Darling has been dubbed “comatose” by senior Conservatives, amid signs of growing frustration in Downing Street over the former Labour chancellor’s leadership of the “Better Together” Scottish campaign.”
“The man has never run a campaign,” said one very senior Tory figure. “He is comatose most of the time.” One Downing Street source described Mr Darling as a “dreary figurehead” for such an important campaign
To be fair it also says a lot of this is just Westminister political game playing but it does actually suggest that the ‘Scottish Skier Theory’ might not just be a ‘crackpot’ internet theory…..
The Tories are poised to try and grab the credit if it’s a NO…..but are ready and starting to prime the press to blame Labour if it’s a YES….
Labour dismiss it by saying….look we’re 20 points up in the polls……but as those polls narrow (as they almost certainly will) then Ali Darling & Labour can and will be blamed by the Tories for blowing that lead.
It make you wonder given his general tetchiness when the polls are going has way right now what Darling will be like when the polls start to narrow in 2014…..when he starts getting it from his own side
Except,of course they are not 20 points ahead in reputable polls – though I’m happy enough for them to believe they are
I do tend to steer clear of the Scotsman nowadays. The issue I have that though is that undecideds viewing the comments threads see a tidal wave of and Yes bile and might imagine that No is winning!
@ cynicalHighlander
Thank you, thank you, made my day! ‘comatose’ ‘dreary figurehead’ – with the added bonus of Fraser Nelson regretting the demolition of Carmichael had not been seen in the south.
Kininvie area….yes once, but not for many a long year 🙁
Apparently the pollster the Daily Mail uses only charges £350! They’re not mainstream nor, apparently, members of the professional organisation.
Darling criticism being echoed on Bloomberg:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-12-03/tories-said-concerned-darling-may-lose-scots-referendum-campaign.html?
cynicalHighlander
Just had a look at official UK Government figures which provide Estimates of UK Oil Reserves and Ultimate Recovery at 31 December 2012 the figure for Oil is 4.606 Billion Tonnes, which is equal to 34.545 Billion Barrels [ https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/16090/UK_Oil_Reserves_and_EUR_2013_v1.pdf ]
Oil Production was 337.5 million barrels in 2012 for the year
Taking a percentage being in Scottish waters of 90% (personally I think its nearer 95 to 97%) that would equate to reserves around 31 billion barrels
@Scottish_skier
I thought that Mail on Sunday poll was a mickey mouse poll.
pro-loco
I see John Curtice pops up in that article;
“Unfortunately for the ‘no’ campaign, it’s not obvious who is more charismatic and voter-friendly — and crucially Scottish– than Alistair Darling who would be willing to lead,” John Curtice , professor of politics at the University of Strathclyde in Glasgow, said in a telephone interview.
I still can’t do archive thing……but that nice Mr Hosie can !!!
Here’s the Pinks Uns column (ooer) that will have everyone* talking…….
http://archive.is/usO8N
*excluding GMS, Reporting Scotland, Newsnicht obviously….
Here’s the Fraser Nelson article the FT piece refers to: Makes for happy reading.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10481280/Scotland-The-case-for-the-Union-is-still-strong-so-why-not-make-it.html
The alarm bells are sounding, but no one seems to be listening. Long may it contnue!
I thought that Mail on Sunday poll was a mickey mouse poll.
As they’ve been going for many years now but refuse to register with the BPC and report methods / tables for scrutiny, your conclusion would be a fair assessment.
Hi guys/gals,
sorry, o/t. I listened to a caller in a radio phone in at the week-end saying that if Orkney and Shetland became independent the oil would belong to them. I know this is a load of bollocks but could somebody remind me of the legal standings the islands would have re maritime boundaries, etc.
Thepnr – thanks for response. I remember well the frustration of wanting to fight back in some way. The utter garbage reports, comments and letters in these 2 particular papers used to leave me feeling sick that they believed they could fool the people like they have. I gave up on the Scotsman about two years ago and the Herald about six months ago. As said before we will not change the greatest percentage of posters in those papers. I used to leaflet a lot around this area but unfortunately the years are catching up so in about the last year I just printed stuff off my printer and handed it around my neighbours with the caveat “if you don’t want this stuff let me know and I won’t put it through your door”. Then I began to send stuff directly from my computer to two houses in the area about six months ago. Now up to 10 customers who I send stuff to every day – hopefully they are passing it on. They all still buy newspapers but are beginning to see the light about MSM and BBC Scotland. With respect to Dave McEwan Hill – sorry Dave I think the SH will revert to type nearer referendum time. If not i’ll gladly buy you a pint or two and acknowledge my erroneous opinion. Thanks and Good Luck to all!
In regards to what has been getting at Darling over the last few months or so: who knows? Could be the fact that the gap has narrowed in most polls, could be that Labour for Indy are concerning SLAB (see Charles Gray, Alex Mossan etc), or maybe he thinks the Tories have lined him up to be the fall guy?… 😀
willie fae Irvine
1. It’s not going to happen but. . .
2. If it did, I hear the 12 mile limit would apply
3. No oil worth having within 12 mile limit.
I am willing to be corrected.
willie fae Irvine
The Shetlands would become an enclave within the Scottish Economic Exclusion Zone and would be entitled to 12km (or miles?) of waters, therefore no oil.
Here’s the link to the Press and Journal study that showed Shetlanders would prefer to remain Scottish:
http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/3201771
If the Tories are that worried about “Darling losing Scotland” for them, then let them throw up Cameron for Big Eck to feast upon!
Re the poll in the mail on sunday, Blair McDougall was tweeting about people were voting for devolution rather than yes. But I didn’t see any breakdown as to what the questions were or how they asked the devolution one. The results just seemed to be yes, no or don’t know.
Anyone got any idea of how they asked the question? I can’t see how a yes/no poll can have any meaning at all if it somehow included the devo option. There are TONS of people who would vote no if it meant devo-max instead, but who would also vote yes if there is no devo alternative on offer.
We have to keep getting the message out that there are NO MORE POWERS being offered.
Mary Bruce
Thanks Mary. I have been trying to get that very link for a wee while. I had read it before but lost the link/
On the Darling thing I suspect that the ‘NO’ internal polling is showing how close the vote would be if held next week. Also the cast iron case for no £ and no EU is now demolished and a dead parrot.
But happily for YES he is the best they can get. Alexander and Murphy are aloof perched like vultures ready to take over whatever the outcome.
I think there will be much making of jam and offering squealing things in pokes very soon. Darling is a busted flush in my opinion.
🙂
@willie fae Irvine
Subject to any contrary agreement of the states involved, succession to treaty rights and obligations upon a change in territorial sovereignty is governed by the 1978 Vienna Convention on the Succession of States in Respect of Treaties. The principle of Uti possidetis juris mandates the obligation to respect pre-existing international borders in succession cases.
In the 1990s the Uti possidetis juris principle was extended beyond de-colonisation situations to include the creation of new states as a result of the breakup of the Soviet Union and the former Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia. In all these cases it was agreed to continue the boundaries of the previous constituent parts of the state, transforming these internal borders into international frontiers.
This was reinforced by the European Community Arbitration Commission of the Conference of Yugoslavia in an opinion which stressed the need to respect the territorial status quo according to the principle, whereby “whatever the circumstances, even the right to self-determination must not involve changes to existing frontiers at the time of independence”.
From a Scottish perspective this is quite clear – the boundaries that mark where Scotland’s borders are within the Union are to be the new international frontiers after independence, and cannot be altered (by for instance partitioning off part of Scotland) by any state involved.
If after independence a Shetland (Or Orkney) movement wants its own independence and achieves this, they would be separating from the state in whose waters they reside and as such they would get full EEZ rights (Oil, Gas, Mineral and Fishing for 200 miles – unless split due to equidistance).
If however, they chose to remain part of the rUK after a split. They would have become enclaves in another states waters and have right stretching no further than 12 miles. Any subsequent Independence movement from the rUK by Shetland (Or Orkney) would not transfer EEZ rights as they would be asking for another states assets so international arbitration would be required.
International law specifies that a state controls the continental shelf and associated mineral and fishing rights up to 200 nautical miles (230 miles or 370 km) off its shores. When another state possesses an island within the continental shelf of this state, special rules apply.
When an island belonging to one state sits on the continental shelf of another state, the islands are treated as enclaves. This matter was discussed in detail in a legal paper published by the European Journal of International Law:
European Journal of International Law: Prospective Anglo-Scottish Maritime Boundary Revisited
Most of the rights to the continental shelf would remain Scottish, Map 2 on page 29 of the legal paper shows the most likely sea boundaries. Westminster would be entitled only to a small zone around the islands, and the waters between Orkney and Shetland. This area contains no oil fields and would leave all of the producing Oil and Gas Fields within the Scottish EEZ, those that are already operating and any future developments to the West of Shetland.
Threats to keep Shetland and Orkney have been traditional threats against a viable Scotland but they have been proved to be worthless. The islanders themselves would not see any change from the oil as it would be outside their economic zone if they became part of rUK on Scottish Independence so they would just continue on in that regard as they do now with their oil fund being added to by the throughput levy at Sullom Voe as it is now.
Staying with rUK will not make them rich and administratively it would be a bit of a nightmare for them under either scenario since they are tied to Scottish Health, education and policing, and are supported from Aberdeen.
(Staying with the UK would entail changing of education, policing and health care standards… then there’s the question of how do you support the islands… and would islanders trust Westminster to support them it becomes clear there’s no viable claim to the oil and gas???).
Of course, the “ownership” of Shetland, Orkney and Rockall wouldn’t pass scrutiny either since they were Scottish for several centuries before the act of union… It’s not like Scotland can lay claim to the Isle of White. What was Scottish on the signing of the Union will remain Scottish on the dissolution.
Further to this an opinion poll of residents of the Northern Islesindependence campaign that Shetland and Orkney might seek to remain a part of the UK if Scotland becomes independent.
The poll, published in the newspaper, finds that 82%, the overwhelming majority, of the islanders wish to remain Scottish.
Asked “Should Shetland/Orkney be independent countries, separate from Scotland?” only 8% of islanders who participated in the poll said that they were in agreement, with a further 10% saying they did not know.
willie fae irving
two things, Shetland and Orkney belong to the Scottish Crown (Us) as payment in lieu of a marriage dowry.
As far as I am aware you have to be a indigenous people who are different from the rest of the oountry before you could even attempt to brake away, according to the latest DNA both Orkney and Shetland are mainly Scottish so the Viking thing is a myth.
If they did manage to vote to stay with whatever the UK is going to be, then they would be a crown dependency same as the Isle of Man and Guernsey, which means 12 mile limit
Sorry about formatting Rev.
Don’t know what happened and edit function not appearing.
Gave Newsnight Scotland 10 seconds tonight. Gordon Brewer was getting ready to kick the shit out of the education system in Scotland.
Mad dive for the off switch. The man just can’t help himself from running Scotland down.
Terrible terrible human being.
Nice wee hatchet job on Scottish education by Brewer on Newsnicht. Heaven help us if we were the worst performer in the UK.
Excellent, Sneekyboy, can I cut and paste that in my files for future use?
Here’s the link to the Press and Journal study that showed Shetlanders would prefer to remain Scottish.
Forget polls. Census data is more accurate. Stirling is less Scottish than Shetland, amongst other places…
‘Scottish only’ and (Scottish +other) national identity.
Scotland = 62% (83%)
Shetland = 60% (79%)
Main cause for the slight difference is oil and gas workers.
It never ceases to surprise me how many people trot out the islands, be it Shetland, Orkney or the Hebrides, want to leave Scotland, or even more laughably, be part of England should Scotland become independent. As if the islands and the islanders are their personal trump card in any argument. It is unbelievably condescending and flies in the face of all the polls, local press and even the census data. I think the Hebrides scored the highest Scottish only figure in the country and Orkney and Shetland were more or less bang on the average. As someone who was raised on the islands I get more than a tad irate at these comments particularly from people who would be hard pushed to name two islands in Orkney or Shetland if their lives depended on it.
Rant over
@Mary Bruce
Of course. The whole point of this site is to counter lies and expose the truth.
Sharing of information is paramount.
Edward says: 3 December, 2013 at 7:46 pm Andrew Morton Just watching that plonker Greg Pilo of Strathclyde Uni on Al Jazeera
I emailed Greg Philo couple of days ago about the newsnet/Salmond story and the way the media dealt with it; highly relevant to his Glasgow Media Centre. He hasn’t responded. I chatted to him in the summer and he was against independence but just a general ‘too poor’ attitude. Nonetheless, professionally, the newsnet story should be of interest cos he was certainly interested in the media bias in this country on Israel v Palestine.
By the way, I agree with those that say we shouldn’t be posting comments on the Scotsman – their readership is dead and the comments are mostly troll-like. Herald seems to have seen a spike in anti independence posters. I’d like to avoid visiting the herald. My suggestion is that someone who has the time posts an archive list of links to the stories each am so that we can all read them there and only go to the real site in an emergency.
scottish_skier re the census:
I had a hilarious conversation with a regular poster on one of the anti independence pages on facebook. He was fond of quoting polls and bookies odds to show the vote was clearly going to be no. He also uses a lot of nationalistic language (British). When I suggested the nationalism card might not be the best as the census figures showed only a small minority identifying as Scottish AND British, he opined that it wasn’t reliable because a lot of people probably couldn’t be bothered ticking 2 boxes!
@HandandShrimp
I think if you read the link below, Tavish Scott Lib/dem MSP had a lot to do with starting the “Stay with the UK after Scottish Independence” rumours.
link :-
http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-politics/4585-tavish-scott-orkney-and-shetland-could-secede-from-scotland
Crisiscult: I don’t know how to archive things, are you able to tell me how it is done?
Regards posting on Herald and Scotsman: Although I have always supported independence, I only got seriously immersed in this debate a couple of months ago, round about the time of the “12 months to go” in September. I found a lot of the posts on the Herald and Scotsman to be really informative. At that point I didn’t know about Wings, National Collective, Bella and all these other things and so the only counter argument I was getting was from these posts. If it hadn’t been for them I may have just swallowed everything I was hearing from the press.
Now I have discovered all these other pages and have been able to learn more facts and build arguments to use against the crap you see in the media. I just think that there are many many people out there who are just starting to sit up and take notice and it is still worth posting on these sites, some people like me will gravitate there first. It helped me a lot, I’m sure it will help others too, you haven’t been wasting your time, I promise.
Mary you came here by the same route as me. Been on the Scotsman again tonight, the arguments are…well pathetic.
http://archive.is/HHZ7K
I’d love to be there when on March 24th 2016, after Tavish gets his wish and Orkney & Shetland remains a protectorate of Westminister…..
‘Yes boys….unfortunately we’ve….err checked the small print and it turns out we’ve only got the 12 nautical miles of the sea…so err no oil and apparently they are going to build a refinery at Caithness and Sullem Voe is to close……something about ‘not landing Scotland’s oil in a foreign country’…….oh and the hospital is to be privatised as well
Still on the upside…..we still get to watch Doctor Who’
Thepnr
Put your energy into twitter. No-one can censor your comments there and there are many uncommitted voters on twitter. It’s a waste of time trying to debate with the BritNats on places like the Scotsman or Telegraph. They won’t change your mind and vice versa. What I think is worthwhile on these sites is rubbishing the journalists and other outfits and writers whose articles are published. It is also good fun insulting the dopy bastards who comment below the line every now and again; the Brit Nats are definitely not as well informed as the Cybernats.
How to archive, go to http://archive.is/ look for the grey button at the top of the screen called “archive,is” and drag it to your toolbar.
@a supporter
Cheers, I joined twitter to follow the Rev but haven’t got the hang of it yet. Must be a learning curve and it’s always a bit of a riddie to make a fool of yourself. o)
Tavish was taken to task in the Shetland Times for his rather loose comments.
@Thepnr and Bill McLean
“……..I still disagree with you re posting on Scotsman and Herald/Sunday Herald.”
I was one of those who spent a lot of time reading the comments in the Scotsman but not posting. It was through effective debating by Yes folks and following links, ( the naysayers NEVER post links) that I too was eventually let to Wings etc.
Given that there are still plenty undecideds out there looking at MSM websites our “keyboard warriors” are every bit as important as our footsoldiers in the field.
It’s a job that has to be done, and a job we are winning regardless of the bit of revenue said newspapers may or may not get.
Thepnr
It’s very simple you just press ‘Tweet’ and write with a max of 142 letters/spaces. In the beginning you won’t have any followers so you have to join in ‘conversations’ or # sites to spread your views around. Pick conversations where two or three or more are conversing, as they usually have a large number of followers who’ll be reading the conversations. The other very useful thing to do is to retweet tweets you agree with in conversations as that is always helpful to the cause.
@ Jon D
I agree with you. More strength to your typing fingers! We all of us think different things important – but if we all do what we can, where we can, we’ll carry this, nae prob.
The point of posting on any non-indy site is not to debate with the NO side. You’ll never change them. It’s just to make reasonable points and post links to where more info can be found. It’s the lurkers/readers who matter not the eejits on the other side.
(And yes, like everybody else I can be stupid enough to be drawn into arguing with the buggers when i forget why I went online to begin with!)
@Oldnat
I’d agree with that, good advice but hard to follow.
Oldnat,
You are absolutely right, although it is so hard to resist feeding the britnat trolls! I have found myself replying to them on twitter when I should just ignore them. I’ve only had twitter for a couple of weeks so just getting the hang of it, wasted time telling that Katie Hopkins what an old bag she is!! I only have 11 followers so far. if anyone wants to follow me I am at @Mary_de_Brus, I will re-tweet you all and vice versa.
a supporter: good advice, thanks, I will put it into action
Thepnr. Thanks for the advice on how to archive. I was needing that. Cheers. I haven’t ventured into the twitisphere yet either. Baby steps for me too.
Oldnat – I remember when you were a young whippersnapper posting on the first incarnation of Newsnet (and long before Rev Stu hove into view with WOS). I always admired your sage and informed advice and your ability to calm folk down. Lifting a dram to you from that corner of a foreign field that will always be – – – Scotland!
Crisiscult
I like your idea of posting the archived Herald and Scotsman pages in the a.m. I find it hard to resist clicking on them to see what crap they are saying. I use Ghostery and self destructing cookies(only works on firefox) most of the time to avoid tracking etc. But your idea would solve that problem.
O/T.
I don’t know if anyone picked up on this disgusting tweet yet.
Seems we want to die younger to avoid work!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2517003/Katie-Hopkins-makes-Twitter-joke-Scottish-life-expectancy-Glasgow-helicopter-crash.html
There is a UK petition against Hopkins to get her off the air. Channel 5 are trying to ban copies of their own offensive programme. They will lose revenues from advertisers etc. Madeley always was totally ill- informed. Another ill-informed annoying ‘journalist’.
Many thanks Liz with regards to advice on approach to Headteachers. It is rather a worry and seems to me that some teachers no longer care to abide by official guidance, the bubble effect, what happens in class stays in class.
Many thanks.
The irony of a Academic funded by Scottish taxpayers money arguing against Democracy in Scotland on a TV station (fees) based where there is no universal emancipation or freedom of speech. The ‘Academic’ should review their position.
The WP will educated and give guidance to the teachers.
Hopkins lied and said, ‘ Scotland raises £27Billion revenues and got back £40Billion in revenues.’ It is more accurate the other way around. Scotland raises £40Billion in revenues and gets back £27Billion.
Official Scottish Gov website. Search GERS P30.
Westminster is borrowing and spending £121Billion more in the rest of the UK than spent (pro rata – £12Billion) in Scotland. Scotland raises more in revenues and spends and borrows less than the rest of the UK.
OT but
http://euobserver.com/tickers/122345
Seems that Goldman Sachs, the real rulers of the World, had said that if the UK left the EU, they will move to Frankfurt.
What a Tiger Cameron is riding, on one side the loony Tory Right, Ukipers, Murdoch’s press empire and the Maily Telegraph whilst on the other the Pay Masters General.
Katie Hopkins and an argument about The Scotsman.,..deary me, talk about us going doolally when the Rev isnt here with his big metaphorical stick!
In respect to Darling, I reckon we could see the Better Together spin doctors trying to woo Jim Murphy out in front of their campaign. He held himself very well under the tragic circumstances at the Clutha and in this “hero” media culture, I wouldnt be surprised if the BT side try and push him front and centre.
Nah Darling appeals to the tories in scotland mind, he won’t be gone until they start rejecting him…besides. there is always ‘United with Labour’ LOL
Just waiting on Fergie sticking his unwanted and ignorant new labour oar into them
scottish_skier said: It is now up to the pro-union campaign to present their case for the union to counter the independence one. People will be looking for an equivalent to the white paper, but for the union. Firm plans for more devolution, information on Scottish Government funding, what cuts there will be etc.
I’m not sure the pro-union campaign have realised this fully. The ball is actually on their side of the court. It would appear they haven’t noticed it though.
And if they do notice it they clearly don’t know what to do with it – no wonder it’s been so quiet from the BT lot. Plus, a glint of cold steel as the knives start to come out for Darling – though I doubt he’s one of the wounded that Ian Davidson had in mind when promising no quarter.
remember that on newspaper forums, for every one person posting there are hundreds reading. So being polite and linking to other content is the best policy. No doubt the Rev will jump in with the read vs contribute stats for Wings.
re Jim Murphy, I was looking at his blog (at one time he was my MP and helped out with a complaint about the foreign office and my wife’s visa – yes, she is a foreigner I’m so ashamed to admit). Anyway, seems Jim Murphy has no issue with the apparent inconsistency of the following:
Nationalism isn’t my politics. I don’t believe in the politics of turning a neighbour into a foreigner.
(of course, if foreigner is a neutral or positive word, then fair enough, but it doesn’t appear to be in the context of this sentence. Sorry Jim, I think nationalism does seem to be your politics). Oh, I believe his kids go to school in East Ren – Williamwood possibly – so maybe he knows something about the discussion a few days ago about No representatives coming into schools without Yes being invited.
All this bull from the BBC is quite, in your face, contemptuous and we need to find a way to counter such propaganda, so why don’t we buy a broadsheet and set it up to be a Scottish Government news outlet as well as being a normal newspaper with news items including all that’s happening south of the border?
How many Scots have stopped taking the Herald and Scotsman because of the anti-independence propaganda? I would reckon well into six figures are keeping their money in their pockets every day of the year. This would more than sustain an official Scottish broadsheet; something which we will need anyway as a masthead for our independent country.
If such a newspaper was available and being of service to the SG, surely there would be an income stream aspect to that, as is the case for all official governments news outlets, so, if it’s the case that new-look communication is via social media, will there not also be a continuing need for the hard print variety for quite some time to come?
It seems to me that if the SG can take over the running of Prestwick Airport to continue employment and provide an essential service, is this not also the case for the continuation of a traditional broadsheet newspaper to provide a similar public service?
Let’s get to it.
@Wee Ginger Dug
My eldest gave me a Fathers’ Day card with ‘Abstinence makes the church grow fondlers’ on it.