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A touch of deja vu

Posted on November 27, 2013 by

No, we haven’t accidentally put up this post again.

bbcfoi1

bbcfoi2

This was the item concerned. We’re expecting the BBC’s response to another FOI request at any minute. Anyone want to take any bets as to what it’ll say?

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    70 to “A touch of deja vu”

    1. Mosstrooper says:

      Ehrrr—Feck off you annoying Scots Sh–e?

    2. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Perhaps Mr Small’s legal beagles could provide a list of subjects which aren’t covered by ‘journalism, art or literature’. It surely wouldn’t take that long…

    3. desimond says:

      “First they manipulate the news pieces, then they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they come to fight you, and then you win.”

      Quite some irony in a “We dont need to to express why” note hiding behind the excuse of Freedom of Expression
      Cheer yourself up knowing you appeared on BBC today

      Wings Over Scotland 

      tweets: Have you ever noticed, have you ever noticed, have you ever noticed how Lamont starts all her sentences three times?

    4. Brian Mark says:

      Freedom of Expression, it depends on what Unionist Party happens to be ruling the roost at the time. Meet the new boss same as the old boss comes to mind

    5. creag an tuirc says:

      Rev, could you not collate WOS readers FOI exempt letters from the BBC? Also have you tried for any information they hold on you and/or WOS? If they hold it they’ve GOT to give you a copy.

    6. Gavin Alexander says:

      Rev, could you send a FOI request to the BBC to ask for a list of the items which they CAN furnish you with?

    7. beachthistle says:

      Many thanks for following up on my comment about the I-Player pre-edit Stu – would have done it myself if I’d known how, and if I had the time to find out and do it – but then again that’s what we are paying you the not-so-big buck for!
       
      The gall of them quoting the Human Rights Convention in relation to protecting public broadcasters is breath-taking. And also ironic if (and I think this should be challenged) if it is true.
       
      How can the BBC hide behind (of all things) Human Rights blurb in relation to covering their tracks when they make insulting and derogatory remarks live on air about the self-determination attempt of a country  – especially when the public of that country are paying to be informed and educated by them?
       
      Surely having to pay for propaganda against a whole populations’ best interests would easily win against  the embarrassment and/or annoyance experienced by a couple of public service broadcasters in a Human Rights game of Top Trumps?

    8. MajorBloodnok says:

      Gavin Alexander says: Rev, could you send a FOI request to the BBC to ask for a list of the items which they CAN furnish you with?
       
      Well, I predict a Kafkaesque reply from the beeb for that one.

    9. Jim Mitchell says:

      Things are going to get even more interesting in this area, Alex Salmond in his speech  in today’s debate has at last started to make the point that for the No campaign supporters to continue to avoid such questions as, if there is a NO vote what extra powers if any, would Holyrood be given and if there is a yes vote, why or rather why would Westminster say NO.
      The pressure is on and the BBC will be expected to report it and if they don’t we will ALL want to know why?

    10. Les Wilson says:

      How’s about ” sod of again you pain in the arse “, in so many words of course, known as BBC speak !

    11. Archie [not Erchie] says:

      Patrick Harvie speaking at Holyrood debate praises Bitter Together newspaper because of a crossword and a recipe for raspberry brownies.
       
      You just got to love this guy eh? In one sentence demolished, ripped up and shredded the handout paper.

    12. HandandShrimp says:

      Almost worth voting Yes purely to see the look on the sods’ faces on the 19th

    13. HandandShrimp says:

      Patrick has had a good week starting with the RIC and just building from there. I wonder how many on the opposition benches have actually read the White Paper?  

    14. Greannach says:

      That’s hilarious. The final few photos show all the interested ‘members of the public’ equally spaced out in a line along the pavement, avidly approaching the No Better Together UKOK leafleter. They look almost ready to burst into a flash mob song and dance routine. I wish the excerpt had continued and we might have seen them burst into “Rule Britannia”.

    15. Geoff Huijer says:

      Aaaah….the written equivalent of putting one’s hands over
      one’s ears and screaming ‘nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, I can’t hear you!’
       
      The BBC are truly pathetic.

    16. Luigi says:

      Patrick Harvie speaking at Holyrood debate praises Bitter Together newspaper because of a crossword and a recipe for raspberry brownies.
        
      Now that’s what I call damning with faint praise!  The green man is on fire this week.

    17. Luigi says:

      Patrick Harvie speaking at Holyrood debate praises Bitter Together newspaper because of a crossword and a recipe for raspberry brownies.
       
      They are obviously targeting the granny vote.

    18. desimond says:

      Neil Findlay today : 
       “(YES Scotland) A land where everything is better but costs us nothing,” 

      More like

      Labour \ Westminster…a Political System where nothing is better but costs everything

    19. Vronsky says:

      After your last post on BBC stonewalling it occurred to me to have a scan through the ECHR.  Interesting to note that the BBC (irony bypass on full throttle) mentions it now. 
       
      Of course it’s absurd to deny FOI requests on the catch-all reason the BBC offers, so I presume that somewhere the EHCR must be being breached, at least in spirit.  That the BBC news stands a lot closer to art than to jourmalism should not be a defence.
       
      Might be worth asking someone like Aamer Anwar or Gareth Peirce for an informal opinion.  Then another appeal for cash?

    20. beachthistle says:

      Have just re-read the letter, and the sentence “Maintaining our editorial independence is a crucial factor in enabling the media to fulfil this function“. caught my eye.
       
      In this case you have not complained per se about what was said, only about why what was said was edited out. What was said by the presenters had been broadcast (and already heard by listeners) under the BBC’s full editorial control, before it was cut out before being uploaded onto the I-Player. Or in effect, what the BBC had, in 1984 Memory Hole style, censored.
       
      This is not an broadcasting editorial control issue – it is an archive manipulation/control issue: censoring the public record of what has been publicly broadcast – on this occassion with no possible legal reasons/get-outs (what was said wasn’t libellous, etc.).  As such I think it is beyond the scope of what they say they are covered by in the letter, and it is probably worth referring it to the Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO)…?

    21. Old mikey says:

      ‘Referendum special’ on STV tonight 10.30 to 12p.m.
      I believe this is a debate between N.Sturgeon and I. Carmichael.

    22. Luigi says:

      Speaking of deja vu,
      I haven’t seen so many sour faces on the TV since the sun rose on 6th May 2011.

    23. Ellie says:

      Out of interest are you going to appeal to the information commissioner?  It might be interesting to see how far this flies.

    24. TheGreatBaldo says:

      The Line Up for QT fae Falkirk tomorrow is oot…..
       
      Oor Nicola
      Comical Ali Carmichael-Moore
      Annabel ‘Auntie Bella and her incredible whistling teeth’ Goldie
      Mags ‘Stairheed Rammy’ Curran
      Patrick ‘nae nickname’ Harvie
      Eddi Reader….
       
      Guess they’ve learned after all the complaints after the Galloway/Farage fiasco…..3 Pro and 3 Anti Indy panellists……
       
      I’m guessing Grangemouth, Falkirk Labour and Indy will be the main topics

    25. desimond says:

      The Great Baldo….

      Was No one from UNITE available?

    26. G. Campbell says:

      This FOI request never ceases to make me laugh.

      https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/communcation_between_bbc_and_gch

      3 August 2013
      “I am requesting any and all communications on record from the GCHQ, to the BBC, and from the BBC, to GCHQ, in full, and dated if not otherwise obvious within the document itself.”
      ————————–

      6 August 2013
      “I estimate that to deal with your request would take more than two and a half days; under section 12 of the Act, we are allowed to refuse to handle the request if it would exceed the appropriate limit. “

      “If you would like to submit a narrowed request, we would be happy to consider it. For example you may consider narrowing your request to a particular part of the BBC.”
      ————————–

      8 August 2013
      “Could you please give me the complete list of every BBC department that The Information Policy & Compliance Team deem separate, so I can make an informed request that’ll burden your department less and would fall within the FOI budget for single requests.”
      ————————–

      14 August 2013
      “the BBC does not maintain such a detailed list. You will appreciate that due to the size of the organisation and its nature, it changes regularly and such a list would become outdated quickly.”

    27. Morag says:

      Might be worth asking someone like Aamer Anwar or Gareth Peirce for an informal opinion.  Then another appeal for cash?
       
      Never, NEVER ask Gareth Peirce to get involved in anything you care about.  Just don’t.  Never.  Don’t even think about it.

    28. Murray McCallum says:

      The BBC is almost impenetrable. I do admire the external investigators that got to the crimes of Jimmy Savile and other BBC presenters. It could not have been easy.
       
      Why can’t the BBC open up and end the culture of secrecy?

    29. Training Day says:

      Patrick Harvie speaking at Holyrood debate praises Bitter Together newspaper because of a crossword and a recipe for raspberry brownies.
       
      The next edition of Better Together’s newspaper will contain ‘Seven Days Hard’ by Francis Gay, see Will and Wag from the People’s Friend revived, and Setterday Sanny get oot his rattle to support City/United on a braw day.

    30. muttley79 says:

      @Luigi
       
      Harvie is on Question Time tomorrow night (Sturgeon, Carmichael, Goldie, Curran!, Eddi Reader).  Lets us hope he is still on fire, throwing verbal Molotov cocktails at the Unionists!

    31. muttley79 says:

      @Morag
       
      Never, NEVER ask Gareth Peirce to get involved in anything you care about.  Just don’t.  Never.  Don’t even think about it.
       
      She represented victims of miscarriage of justice. 

    32. HandandShrimp says:

      Quite a good line up for QT. Annabel is a civilised debater, Mags and Carmichaelmoore incomprehensible. Nicola and Patrick, clear and concise. I have no idea what Eddie is like at this sort of thing. Lovely voice though.

    33. beachthistle says:

      Have had a quick look through some of the relevant BBC Editorial Guidelines
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/editorialguidelines/page/guidance-live-output-full#what-to-do-when-you-come-off-air
      and have picked out a couple of quotes:
      What to Do When you Come Off Air
      “Programme Editors should ensure that any derogatory remarks which caused concern on transmission are edited from any repeat or online provision.”
      Other BBC Editorial Guidelines Relevant to Live Output
      “The BBC is obliged by law to keep recordings of allbroadcast output including programmes, trails and continuity announcements: television for 90 days and radio for 42 days.”
       
      The main thing to remember with the case in the FOI request is that it was only the 2-way dialogue between 2 BBC presenters that was cut – no third/non-BBC broadcaster was involved.

    34. Morag says:

      She represented victims of miscarriage of justice.

      Yes.  I know that.  I think Vronsky will be fairly shocked when he finds out what she’s doing now, though.

    35. muttley79 says:

      @Morag
       
      Care to elaborate?

    36. Morag says:

      Can’t, at the moment.  Let’s just say that if I could go back in time and assassinate that lady at a time of my choosing, I’d be sorely tempted to do it.  Vronsky will probably figure out what I’m talking about in due course.

    37. muttley79 says:

      Why mention it then?  What has she done?

    38. Morag says:

      Her name is like a red rag to a bull to me right now, and Vronsky of all people speaking about her in approving terms was just a fraction more than I could take.

    39. muttley79 says:

      I really don’t understand why you would mention her, then say you would shot her, and not say why?

    40. Morag says:

      I have been absolutely seething mad with blind impotent rage for several days.  Gareth Peirce is the cause of my lamentable condition.  I have less self-control than I ought to have.

    41. MajorBloodnok says:

      Morag said: Never, NEVER ask Gareth Peirce to get involved in anything you care about.  Just don’t.  Never.  Don’t even think about it.

      Pity.  I was planning to reform the great Welsh rugby teams of the ’70s but that’s out the window now.

    42. Brian Powell says:

      The BBC response must be part of the Unionist mind set; just keep repeating the same thing.
      In the debate on the White Paper, Neil Findley simply regurgitated a mass misinformation and dead stories, without pause. It was like watching someone with flux.
       
      It was sad to hear and watch the degeneration and disintegration of Labour, a Party I once respected. The truly depressing part , was thinking it was probably always this way but it was never challenged before, so this side of it was hidden.There is nothing to it but tactics.
       
      Hearing John Swinney’s  closing speech was like fresh air in the room. A call for decent respect to others in the debate.

    43. Mosstrooper says:

      Morag et al.
      I thought Gareth was a male welsh name. Why ” she” me confussed!

    44. Morag says:

      Her real name is Jean.  She didn’t like and changed to Gareth while she was still a schoolgirl I think.
       
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gareth_Peirce

    45. Alba4Eva says:

      I had actually posted a couple of weeks ago that I had cancelled my TV licence direct debit… between one thing and another, I kept forgetting to get round to it.  Done now though.  Popped into the bank on the way home from work.   Feels great.  🙂

    46. Andy-B says:

      Erm! dear blah blah blah, we would have furnished you with a desired information but our sound engineer, accidently damaged the said euipment thingmygig that would have brought you the missing seconds.
       
      The engineer broke the whatdoyoumacallit, whilst cranking his neck to see Andy Scotts, 30 mt Keplies, the other day, if however we obtain an new bobbideeboot, then by all means we’ll disclose your request.
       
      Your Sincerely G.  etlost.

    47. Churm Rincewind says:

      Oh, give me a break.  The BBC is saying that this request is not covered by the Freedom of Information Act or the European Convention on Human Rights.
      So they’re playing by the rules.  You may not like the rules, but they are what they are, and it seems to me unreasonable to complain that the BBC is not, in this instance, observing the law. 
       
        

    48. Archie [not Erchie] says:

      Have got to say I like a good crossword and if anybody has got a copy of the one in the Bitter Together newsheet then please forward it to me.
       
      I am having cold shivers about cryptic questions such as :
       
      Roman god with 2 faces removes head and is left with a ring.

    49. beachthistle says:

      @Churn Rincewind
      I believe, as I believed at the time, that what was said showed the blatant personal political bias of the 2 public broadcasters involved – and that the subsequent editing of what they said was a blatant (and just as politically biased) institutional cover-up by the BBC, a publicly funded politically neutral entity.
       
      It would seem to me that cover-up actions taken to deliberately conceal personal political bias (nothing illegal nor litigious was said) that had already been broadcast falls beyond the editorial freedom they claim that the ‘rules’ quoted in the brush-off letter protect them from.
       
      I reckon that a formal request to BBC to maintain a 100% recording of the programme beyond the statutory 42 day period PLUS a formal complaint to the COI about the BBC’s bias cover-up actions are in order…

    50. Edward says:

      muttley79 

      Harvie is on Question Time tomorrow night (Sturgeon, Carmichael, Goldie, Curran!, Eddi Reader)
      So three tories v 2 independentistas, a bit unfair for the tories 😉

    51. Edward says:

      Just a thought on tomorrows Question time viz a viz Sturgeon v Carmichael
      Aren’t the debating today /tonight?

    52. david says:

      Harvie is on Question Time tomorrow night (Sturgeon, Carmichael, Goldie, Curran!, Eddi Reader)So three tories v 2 independentistas, a bit unfair for the tories 
       
      reader is yes

    53. muttley79 says:

      What time is the debate on tonight?

    54. Greannach says:

      Stairheid should prove an eye-opener for the UK audience – an indication of the dizzy heights that the Labour Party can achieve.

    55. call me dave says:

      muttley79
       
      10:30pm to 12:00 midnight.  It’s got to draw the biggest audience so prime time slot.
       
      Aye right! The less we know or are shown the ‘better together’.

    56. handclapping says:

      @Archie{not
      If its six letters could it be Sarwar?

    57. Alex Taylor says:

      Morag
      Re Gareth Peirce
       
      I have held her up as one of the great human rights lawyers in Britain. I have her book Dispatches from the Dark Side and whenever I hear her speak I am impressed with her thoughtful and considerate concern for her subject.
       
      I know she was interested in the Lockerbie case like you (believing a miscarriage of justice occurred). Can I take it she has upset you in that regard?
       
      It is not nice hearing those you hold in esteem have clay feet. Will you at some point be able to elucidate upon what has upset you?
       
      Alex
       
       

    58. Dorothy Devine says:

      Alex , she only has feet of clay in Morag’s estimation – like Craig Murray and I believe another poor sod that she disparaged.
       
      Make your own judgement by using your own experience.

    59. Morag says:

      I am currently in a blind red rage with Gareth Peirce.  I shouldn’t have said anything, but when I saw Vronsky’s post, discretion took a back seat.  Sorry.

    60. Morag says:

      Dorothy, I’ve given you my opinion of Craig Murray, and my reasons for saying that.  If you think he’s right, that’s your prerogative.  I stand by what I said.

    61. Piobaire says:

      I got exactly the same reply from the same man after waiting the maximum amount of time for a reply under FOI. This time, it concerned the Call Kaye show. Adams is on record as being a New Labour supporter and anti-Indy. She’s there for a purpose, as is John Beattie and a host of other reporters. Fred MacAulay is from the same stable; private contractor whose work takes him south of the border regularly. His considerable income relies on his connections within the BBC and without. The Britishing of BBC Scotland has been planned for a long time. It’s been truly under way for about 5 years now. 

    62. Archie [not Erchie] says:

      @ handclapping – Oh you clever person. I should have made it harder. Mind you I was thinking more of the 4 letter word but you got there.

    63. wee jamie says:

      RE question time
      A fairer balance than we could have expected Carmichael  is a bit volatile,  Curran is a ned-queen,Goldie is the only wan who can debate,but she’s a Tory. Patrick Harvie and Nicola  Sturgeon will not be out gunned  politically, And Eddi Reader , though not a politician ,is a true Scottish singing legend, dedicated to the independence cause,and showed her support at the march and rally this year. All in all, it should make interesting viewing.

    64. ElaineS says:

      I am still awaiting the result of my complaint to PCC with regards to Simon Heffer bigoted and inaccuracy. That was end of September, Simon Yip replied this:

      Dear Ms &&&&&&
       
      Further to my email of 20 September, I write to inform you that we have initiated an investigation into this article following an earlier complaint. We will let you know the outcome of our investigation when we can.
       
      Yours sincerely 
       
       Simon Yip
       
      Complaints Coordinator 
       
      Then I wrote again on 4th No and got this reply,not heard anything since

      Dear Ms &&&&&&&,
       
      Thank you for your email to Mr Yip, which he has passed to me.I know Eddi Reader had a while before getting a negative result so how long are these cases supposed to take?:
       
      We are still in the process of investigating the complaint, so it has yet to reach a conclusion. I will be in touch in due course once a conclusion has been reached. 
       
      With kind regards
       
       
      Elizabeth Cobbe
       
       

    65. ElaineS says:

      Oops, Sorry, I’ve put my part of comment into the reply from Elizabeth Cobbe, if you take out the bit “I know Eddi Reader had a while before getting a negative result so how long are these cases supposed to take?:” and the reply from miss Cobbe is :

      Dear Ms &&&&&&&, Thank you for your email to Mr Yip, which he has passed to me. We are still in the process of investigating the complaint, so it has yet to reach a conclusion. I will be in touch in due course once a conclusion has been reached.  With kind regards  Elizabeth Cobbe

    66. Morag says:

      It’s OK, we worked it out.
       
      Did that bloody edit window close on you even though there were no more posts?  Drives me mad when it does that.

    67. ElaineS says:

      Aye, I went to edit it and it said it was closed.

    68. desimond says:

      This all seemed rather relavant

      1704: 

      SNP MSP James Dornan raises a point of order about the accuracy of Johann Lamont’s assertion that the SNP has not delivered any extra PE in schools. The presiding officer says she has no responsibility for the accuracy of the comments made in the chamber.

    69. Churm Rincewind says:

      @beachthistle – I don’t disagree with what you say.  My point was simply that if the BBC doesn’t observe the rules which have been imposed on them by legislation (though there’s certainly a discussion to be had about whether rules are appropriate or not, but that’s a separate topic) then we’re all lost.

    70. Ben Franklin says:

      I have a request to make to the bloghost:

      Would you publish a guest post by Craig Murray if he were to submit?

      Professional courtesy and fairness should not need legislation.

      Thanks in advance



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