Our man on the scene
There’s been a lot of talk on Twitter and Facebook of irregularities at the referendum counts, leading to accusations that the referendum was somehow fixed, culminating in a petition to have the procedures investigated, or even the referendum re-run. As with most conspiracy theories, this is largely down to people not understanding what they’re seeing, as the videos flying around the internet showing bits of the count have been removed from their context.
For example, there’s a video showing a counting table with a No sign on it with a pile of ballot papers, with the top paper showing a cross beside Yes. To the uninformed observer, this looks like Yes votes have been dumped on a table of No votes; but in reality, the pile of votes were still waiting to be split up into Yes and No at this point, and if the person making the video had bothered to check, they’d have found this out.
So here’s a quick guide to how the count worked, as observed by one of this website’s own official monitoring agents (specifically me).
In the days running up to the 18th, there were daily postal vote opening sessions, where ballot boxes containing postal votes were opened and the contents verified. This began by counting the number of envelopes (envelope ‘B’), which were then opened to reveal the postal voting statement and a second envelope (envelope ‘A’) containing the actual ballot paper. The postal voting statements were then checked against the list of postal voters, the information checked for completeness and correctness, and then packaging them up into sealed packets.
After this, the ballot papers were removed from their ‘A’ envelopes, kept face down so no one could see the vote, the number on the ballot paper checked against the number on the envelope to make sure they matched, and then placed into the ballot box. Some final verification checks were made, then the ballot box was sealed, ready to go to the final count.
The part about the postal votes being PLACED into the ballot box is important, as one of the most popular pieces of “evidence” circulating shows a ballot box being opened with the contents being “suspiciously” neatly stacked. Well yes, that’s because they weren’t posted through the top like the ballots in polling stations. (We know these were postal ballots because the “counting under way” caption suggests this was at the beginning of the count, not halfway through – see next section.)
So, at 10pm on the 18th September, the count began. Obviously ballot boxes were still at their polling stations at 10pm, so the count began with the ballot boxes containing postal votes, as these were already at the counting venues, ready to be counted. The first stage was counting the total number of ballots. This was done by putting the ballots into piles of 100, under the watchful gaze of counting agents from both sides (at the Aberdeen count there were so many counting agents for Yes that it was possible for people to take turns).
This was when counting agents were able to “sample” the votes, by taking tallies of the number of Yes and No votes being put into the piles (this is how people at election counts always seem to know the result long before it’s actually announced). These piles were then rubber-banded and given a slip of paper identifying the box they came from. Again, this explains one of the popular pieces of “evidence”, that claims to show a counter writing on a ballot paper. No, they were writing on one of these slips of paper.
The next stage was splitting the votes, when the piles of votes were actually put into piles of Yes and No (as well as a pile for ballots that hadn’t been completed properly). When a Yes or No basket was looking a bit full, their contents would be transferred to one of the applicable Yes or No counting tables to be counted. Counting officers would also check the pile of improperly completed ballots to put those where the intent was obvious into the Yes or No pile, and remove those that required further adjudication.
At several intervals throughout the count, the referendum agents would be gathered to witness the adjudication of improperly completed ballots, and argue the case for them to be included or rejected, according to which side they appeared to favour (and to despair at the number of people who find it so difficult to simply put a cross in a box).
Papers were double-counted, with counters working in pairs to double-check each other’s results. Every stage was scrutinised by counting agents, who had the power to step in at any point if they felt something was wrong. Occasionally a counter would put a ballot into the wrong Yes or No pile simply through human error, but this would be picked up, either straight away by the counting agent or the counter themselves, or by their colleague when the papers were recounted.
There are too many eyes watching for anything dodgy to happen, and trying to fix the count would require pretty much every single member of the counting staff to be in on the scam – and these are council workers known to both sides of the political divide.
Yes lost because we started off from somewhere between 25% and 30%, and had to face the full wrath of the British state, the media and corporate interests, not to mention people’s natural resistance to change – no matter how ridiculous Gordon Brown’s devolution timetable was, or the unionists’ recent track record of enhanced devolution, it was clearly enough to convince wavering No voters to give the union another chance. Pain can make critical faculties go out the window.
However, we certainly didn’t lose because of shenanigans at the counts, and perpetuating such stories only hinders the attempts that are currently being made to move on from the result and onto the second phase of this wide-ranging and thriving independence movement (Women For Independence and the Radical Independence Campaign are already planning their next conferences in the coming weeks).
As an official referendum agent for Wings Over Scotland who witnessed the counting procedures first-hand, I hope these words might carry at least a bit of weight amongst online activists. Believe me, if anything dodgy had been happening, this vile cybernat would have been screaming it from the rafters.
I wish there was some way of blocking people on this site, or putting them on ignore. There comes a point where you realise that reason is not going to be listened to.
@ Morag ‘We did not lose the referendum because of 400,000 postal votes .’ I agree. I think many of us take our lodestone from Morag. And I trust Stu. They are trying to divert us and make us look like loons – we are in a whole new war. The best – and we are because we have justice on our side – adapt and move on. A hard pill. But what’s a few years more when the goal is so worthwhile.
I was at a polling station in West Glasgow.
With me was a labour party member who had been high up at one time, now in back in academia.
I had been spouting off that we were going to win by a good margin, when he told me the No research indicated they were going to win handsomely. This was at about 9.30ish that evening. Perhaps all that data from the secret UK Gov. polling that we all paid for, passed on to their friends at Better Together.
AND it was like a meeting of Labour Friends of the Union as the seniors all came along to vote NO.
Getting bored with this folks. This ain’t healing, this is picking at festering running sores. Let them scab over please.
What’s been happening at the BlabFest today? Someone must have been making a tit of themselves. Burnham rousing the rabble – he’s the one that wants to merge the NHS bodies isn’t he?
@Derick fae Yell – Why do you think there was such a large No vote in Orkney/Shetland.
I’ve come back to the site several times today since I posted on this article by Doug Daniel.[first post]
Each time I feel more down than the time before. This will suit the NO side, getting everyone all het up and arguing amongst ourselves.
Time to move on, there is much to do.
people heal in their very own ways, and @ their own pace, over what ever the individual human beings has to.
let them be and let it be.
4 things 4 healing; time, space, truth, and anger!
imo we was robbed, but not in the ballot count, that was done superbly.
I am way out of my depth here but have a few young folk joining the SNP/Greens etc. These folk are raging cos they lost. Chatting away today they all said they could have done more. good for them.
I have told them to join one of the indi parties and be prepared to canvass and promote your views. They did join and are anxious to get to work. I don’t know what more advise to give as i am unsure of the “Tactics” for the GE .
My hope is the young are put into action soon as they will lose interest if they think it’s taking too long to organise. We really need a proper plan of action and quickly cos the GE is 6 months away. That’s very quick considering we worked on the YES vote for years.
Any info on developments would be appreciated .
I helped over 20 people get to the polls last time. this time i will double my efforts. I have their support so i am talking for 20. That’s just me .
Get talking folks. The promises are already being thrown on the fire. We have lost because too many believed in the VOW. We have ammo enough but we have to get down to business now.
Oh and stop feeding the trolls. Although on this occasion i would not blame you for telling them to go take a flying ***K first.
Dave McEwan Hill says: 24 September, 2014 at 5:34 pm:
“Can we abandon any talk of Full Fiscal Autonomy. Like “Devo max” and federalism it is a deceit and a diversion. The only way you can have FFA is through independence.”
I’m with you, Dave, but I’ll go even further. As long as the elected United Kingdom Parliament at Westminster remains also the unelected de facto parliament of the country of England then it is, in reality, a case of these 533 elected members from English constituencies forcing the best interests of the country of England upon the peoples of Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland.
While we only have a collective total of 117 members to defend our collective rights. Worse still a large number of those 117 members elected to Westminster by the peoples of Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland are loyal members of the three London Unionist parties who would rather see any one of those London Unionist parties in office than any party from the country that elected them.
I often see commenters from Scotland ask the question, “Dae ye think wi zip/button up the back o wir heids”? To those who ask yet have not awakened to the fact that Westminster is the Parliament of the Country of England and is now about to ban your elected members from voting on what England claims are England only matters.
Yet, as England has no block grant and is funded as, “The United Kingdom”, by the United Kingdom Treasury then the stark answer to your question is – YES folks you do indeed button/zip up the back o yer heids.
@Morag says:
Just saw a really good tweet.
“To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.” – Thomas Paine
It worked for Gordon Brown.
As a foreigner (Danish) I don’t understand, that the ballots have to be transported at all. When we vote in Denmark, the ballots are counted at the voting station.
@handclapping,why are you asking me why big jock said such and such? I didnt call anyone a double agent. There have been many cases of electoral fraud using postal votes in the past. It is in need of reform.
@Calgacus
As the owner of this site said
We lost. There was no conspiracy. Now let’s get to work winning.
Morag
You must be blue in the face by now and suffering from a repetitive strain injury. 🙂
O/T question when i click on the wings store all the prices are in $ is there a way to change this.
Or maybe we are better together with the Americans as well (joke)
p.s just joined the SNP as well
@ Morag
Americans and Russians stirring the pot causing hoaxes.
Hmmmmm , Is that `Factual Knowledge` Morag.
Insufficient explanation of blank backed ballots so far.
Firstly @handclapping has been curiously pointed in putting down both mine and @bigjock’s complaints !!??
Secondly the suggestion by @bobsinclair that the blank back concerns were “utter garbage ” is too simplistic.
His reasoning is the great difficulty he perceives in tallying the number of votes placed in the box at polling station with the number received at count; given an assumption that they could have been switched.
Surely for example, the fact is that a list of those who had voted had been ticked off in every single polling station. Given access to such a list; anyone wanting to place the correct switched number of ballots into a fraudulent box for the count; could simply look at that list of ticked off names and count them up.
My partner and I received polling cards for our old address (which was in a affluent scheme in our old town.) through redirection service by post office. Yet we had registered to vote at our new address. (A new estate £200000+ houses, think squeaky bum time for the newly mortgaged)
A postie friend told me of polling cards and postal votes being redirected south of the border. And condemned return to sender (people having left address without redirecting) polling cards open to misuse.
I can’t be arsed with conspiracy theories. But you’re a complete fucking idiot to discount the possibility that the UK were going to let billions upon billions of £’s go without using the relevant agencies at their disposal.
Not one bead of sweat would have rolled down one crack of an arse to pull a east one. Remember prism amongst other intelligence tools. Quarter of a million votes would be rather easy to obtain across a country.
I think from now on if people continue to push this rigged referendum theory without offering credible evidence, it really is better just to ignore them. It is troll like behaviour; they are trying to waste people’s time, start disputes and infighting. There really is no point in engaging with it any longer.
O/T:
Just listened to the press statement from the Ministry of Propaganda, (a.k.a. The BBC), By David Cameron. He is talking about the United Kingdom but listen to the actual words. Not a single mention of, “The United Kingdom”, in the entire news item. Dave claim is full of Britain & British but Dave is not the Prime Minister of Britain, he is Prime Minister of the United Kingdom and he is not taking Britain to war he is taking the United Kingdom to War and the BBC is doing the same it is all Britain and British but what of the four non-United Kingdom parts of Britain?
Just how bare-faced arrogant can you get? Remember this is the arrogant people who have the brass neck to tell us if we leave the Parliament that is the de facto parliament of England we will cease to be British.
Agreed Muttley
We need a new topic. Stu if your reading this …
A new process for registering is being implemented. Individuals will have to register as opposed to households DOB and NI numbers will be required
This has come about as nearly 10% more 16/17 years old were registered in Dundee than there are in the city
You know who you are:
I hardly think it’s patronising to point out the appropriate place to air your views about conspiracies
I merely pointed it out because I am not going to say nothing when I see peoples integrity being questioned.
Morag has many years experience of the procedures involved & I think I will trust her judgement on this above the judgement of someone who sees conspiracy at every turn.
This constant white noise of ‘fix’ is damaging to our future cause & will only start to drive people away from a website which has built its reputation on facts backed up by firm evidence.
If you care in the slightest about the future of Wings over Scotland you would drop this and, in the unlikely event that anything major comes to light, let those who know what they are doing (and I’m not presuming to be one of them) deal with it.
If the above seems patronising to you then so be it, you will not be getting any apologies from me for wanting this site to be free of the random drivel which is normally confined to social media.
Oh dear, I find this all very sad. All this bickering and nitpicking. After the community that has been wings over the period of the referendum to have descended to this is really heartbreaking.
Thank you Doug Daniel & Morag both stalwarts of wings, you have tried hard to explain, but it would seem that some of us don’t like the explanations.
Guys, we have to accept that we lost, we have to stop cluttering up the site with some of these theories. It really is not helping. I too, was so disappointed with the result. I could hardly believe it, but it is what it is. Fair enough if you wish to sign a petition to have the results looked at, that is your right. But nothing will change we will still have lost. Let it go please.
Can we all please begin to move forward to where we need to go now. We have learned from this just what we were up against, should make us wiser next time. Concentrate on what we could usefully do at the general election .
Please folks, come on, all of us together. The no’s will be loving this if they are watching. It’s what they will be counting on, that we’ll all fall out amongst ourselves and gradually disappear. I for one don’t want that to happen.
@YESGUY
By the way, apologies for arguing with you too fiercely a wee while ago. That goes for others on here as well. No malice was meant on my part, but I was still too techy at times.
@handclapping,The owner of this site can speak for himself and the only qualification I need to speak on the fairness of the referendum is the fact that I voted
YESGUY, a big milestone in the campaign for the SNP will be the Conference. From this conference, we will determine the tactics and way forward.
Well I’m glad you done that Stuart, hopefully people will take note and move onto other more productive subjects.
All those who have ideas about fraud etc should go to the site where there is an on-going debate – link to thebutterflyrebellion.org
There are more detailed allegations made here at the Butterfly Rebellion: link to thebutterflyrebellion.org
The lack of secure arrangements for the transportation of the ballot boxes is particularly worrying, and ballot papers without numbers on the back could easily be switched with ‘No’ ballot papers. I’m not saying this did happen, just that fraud doesn’t have to have taken place in the counting hall. I would be interested to hear Doug’s response to the above article.
Ive posted on this before but i feel it’s worth repeating.
The way in which we cast our vote is A COMPLETE JOKE.
We turn up at a village hall or school with trestle tables and booths made by the worst joiner in the world. Its like the hall in Dads Army. We are handed a slip of paper by someone we don’t know, who also takes it, that we are who we say we are, don’t really check the bit of paper, and make a mark on it with a wax pencil. We then put it in a tin box (equally badly made) and hope.
We then leave, wave plastic cards at scanners to pay for things, move money by mobile phone and travel the planet with our biometric passports.
And as for postal votes !!!!!!! Ive never in my life met anyone who uses them, that has checked that they got there, or has been verified by the relevant authorities that they used a postal vote to vote.
Just seen this on a friend’s Facebook status and he was very involved with the Yes campaign – sums up a lot of my own feelings and is quite apt for this thread.
Post referendum I will make these pleas;
To YESSERS;
1. Stop conspiracy theories.
The vote was not rigged. Individuals caught manipulating ballots and/or misplacing bundles did not determine the outcome.
2. Stop with this 45 stuff.
We can’t define people by their political opinion on 18th sept since we obviously need more than we had then. This only alienates others.
3. Criticise NO campaign/leaders not NO voters.
Easy to put posts in anger or in discussions which confuse the 2 – keep a clear definition and remember they have had promises made to them.
4. Keep engaged, keep agitating and keep the faith.
And to EVERYONE.
Keep engaged and keep up pressure on promises made. Hold all politicians to account and help make Scotland a better society. Our society is not just about politicians, like the referendum it’s about everyone. Do your bit in whatever way you can – think about the difference you can make – charity work, local politics, not putting up with anti-social behaviour, tackling bigotry/racism/domestic violence and just being a nice person and good neighbour etc…and keep the debate clean and respectful.
Also Caledonia @ 5:54 – I like your idea about fighting dirty.
Colin darling – your pot is a complete joke.
How dare you people suggest that those who have also put a lot of effort into this have no validity at this juncture to air their concerns on potential fraudulent behaviour.
Attempting to guilt me by accusing me of being an infighter; Wings damager or cry baby; tin foil conspiracist or whatever is totally unacceptable.
My reference is to the many people who have actually made the statement that the think that their ballot paper had a blank underside.
Face those statements. Do not confuse that with the reasoning in the article. That article ONLY refers to the stage after ballots were received at counting stations and NOT before.
It is ridiculous to shout; well go and prove it then. People are trying to encourage those that witnessed the discrepancy to make formal police reports.
It would be wholly sensible to understand that only with a weight of such reports could we PROVE our case by attaining sufficient legal leverage to check the ballot. My unique id should be on both the station tally sheet and on my ballot; my fingerprints may also be on my ballot.
So why don’t those condescending;patronising and unreasonably critical voices be the ones to STFU ?
Ok wingers I surrender, the vote was free and fair, the count was honestly done and I am an idiot. Thank you all and sorry
Re the allegations of ballot papers blank on the reverse….
At the issue of a ballot paper to the voter, a note is taken of the ballot paper number and this is recorded on the corresponding numbers list (CNL) next to the number of the elector to whom it was issued. (this list is sealed and not available for inspection unless on the order of a court) The number is taken from the reverse of the paper. Without a number the paper would not have been issued.
Across Scotland there were only 3429 papers rejected and none of these were rejected on the basis of “the reverse being blank”. So even if a blank paper was issued, and I don’t believe that any were, then the paper would still have been counted.
O/T – just when you think you r getting over the betrayal – the BBC is announcing – not that I’m watching it but it’s all over twitter – that oil will last for decades more than they thought.
They just want to rub our noses right in it,
They are f***ing shameless.
And for the record. I happen to have promoted this very site more than possibly any of you.
@Lanarkist
Some great suggestions there. I’d also like to see our creatives getting involved in breaking new media ground. Regular podcasts and made for net video, documentary, political discussion.
God we’ve got the brains and the talent, let’s put it to use. We’ve even got the odd friendly journo out there. I mean the thought of ongoing Bateman interviews with our leading thinkers, political movers and shakers in the growing parties, guest spots from pro active celebs etc.
Ditto on the writing front, these buggers want the likes of Stu, Paul, NNS, Bella and the rest to disappear. They know it was a shaky win and they know the issue isn’t dead and buried. Most importantly they know they’re working to a clock and time will run out quick enough, but we need our lines of communication not just to remain open, but to get seriously upgraded.
Any and all creatives get your thinking caps on. We’re out to create a new cross platform media. We want to replace the pricks who highjacked our referendum and acted as another wing of the state in our livingrooms and who poisoned what should have been our debate. We need you.
This is good enough for me. I can now accept that there was no large scale fraud and move on. The fact is we only lost by 6%. We need to accept that and move on. We have a pretty good idea why we lost and who caused that lost, so now we set about obliterating them from the Scottish political scene. Look at the hearts and minds we have won over three years in spite of all the shit that was lobbed at us. We can rally and build upon this. It is good that we have immediate elections ahead to focus on. We can focus on eliminating these and returning a huge majority to Holyrood in 2016. By then, we will have conventional media to counterbalance the lies of Westminster. A couple of years of broken vows, an even nuttier right wing cabal in London who will doubtless have been putting the boot in and probably another war somewhere.
Next time, the win will be ours.
An English Parliament for English people (fine) but not spending UK money. No taxation without representation. They can spend their own money they raise and borrow and pay off their own debts.
Chris Darroch darling – I doubt it.
Ch 4 news.
I can’t believe they actually said that Cameron delayed going to war until after the Scottish referendum in case it damaged the No vote!
Where was that fuckin honesty before the vote?!
@PaulaRose
What is it dear…………that you doubt ??
What is it that you find so difficult to understand…..darling !?
Anyone heard word from police about the definite 10 suspected fraud votes , what happens if they get linked to someone from the BT camp ?
My post above at 6;45 was taken from the local weekly paper
I lost my first post and missed this out when I re-typed
Americans and Russians stirring the pot causing hoaxes.
Hmmmmm , Is that `Factual Knowledge` Morag.
No, it’s speculation based on some of the things I’ve seen on the internet. If it turns out it isn’t true, fine, no skin off my nose.
It’s a far more plausible conspiracy theory than the vote-rigging one though.
To add salt to the already raw wound of defeat, North sea oil reserves boosted.
link to bbc.co.uk
Nigerian Pirate, excellent post.
Bob, I criticised nobody’s integrity
Paula Rose – you been on the pot?
Does anyone know if the motion was placed in Westminster this Monday as per Brown’s already revised timetable?
@Calgacus
Stu did – “We lost. There was no conspiracy. Now let’s get to work winning. ”
As I thought you’re just a keyboard warrior.
Why didn’t you do something about it beforehand like volunteer to be an agent and oversee the process?
Why carry on crying over spilt milk like a disappointed child insted of boning up on how the 2015GE is to be run and volunteering to do something to see that your “complaints” don’t happen then as well?
Joe, I think it will prove impossible to discover who voted fraudulently in these personation cases. Unfortunately. The police are going through the motions, but I don’t think anyone expects them to get anywhere.
You’d have to have a security camera like at an airport check-in to get anywhere with that sort of offence, and I don’t imagine the voting public would stand for that.
A.N.SURGENT says
“sad to see I was the only one with a YES badge.”
No you wern’t, I was there! 😉
My ballot paper was blank on the reverse. I expected it to be, because it had that spiffy square bar-code-like thing on the front. (There’s a name for these but I can’t remember what it is.)
The referendum was run by the local councils. They each had slightly different ways of running it. Some used serial numbers on the back, some didn’t.
Off to war soon the coffins will be coming back
More of that volatile stuff than they’ll know what to do with after they pay for their war
And her maj purrrrrrs
What’s not to like?
I reckon a good idea at this point is to agree that those who believe that there is foul play to be found can go out and compile all the evidence they can and make a presentation of it. If they cant within the 6 weeks that the referendum result can be challenged then its time to move on.
Others who think their is nothing to find can put their energies into other things, and who knows maybe something will indeed come up?
No point having a protracted argument about it as we are all on the same team.
All the ballots were made of rice paper and as jam was being given away a plenty the feast continued. WE LOST guys.
I believe Stu is off for a holiday I wouldn’t blame him not to return.
Ok Ok I think there is merit in the moving on argument.
If there was any “sheenanigans” logic dictates that it happened when the boxes were in transit in order to remove anything like enough YES’s to get from, say 51 to 45 per cent. If it was done at all – and I’m not saying it was – it would have been done by professionals with ZERO chance of us proving it. The moving on argument again prevails – the energy (and anger) is needed for positive action.
However I think we must acknowledge that we are not dealing with “nice” people. As Tommy Sheridan I think has already pointed out, these people – The British State – are Gangsters. We were very naive, and I include myself, in thinking we could waltz off with the UK’s sole strategic asset (the OIL) without so much as a by your leave.
They do not maintain an enormous State Security Apparatus for nothing. We must in all our diverse pro-independence organisations be on our guard, in fact, the diversity of the movement is it’s major strength, infiltration doesnae come cheap!
Step 1
We accept that many think that there was nothing on the back of their ballots; which is totally illegal
Step 2
We take our witness reports to official channels and get paperwork
Step3
The weight of reports petitions higher authority to take investigative steps
Step4
We find out something one way or another
Is it so hard to accept and respect Step 1 ?
@Juteman
That was actually reported by a MSM newspaper a few weeks ago. I cannot remember which one, but it definitely said that.
john king
Thank f*k, im getting a bit of an inferiority complex. Would have taken you for a pint through pure relief if I had seen you. 🙂
For those complaining about this thread please bear in mind that vote-rigging, or not, is what Doug’s article is about, and if people don’t wish to participate in a particular thread the solution is not to participate in a particular thread, not to close it down. I think the probity of an electoral process is a valid subject for consideration. No-one is advocating we concentrate on the issue, simply that it is an issue for some people. Having said all that, that is my final contribution to this thread.
Thank you!
Sane voice.
As a Ref Agent for Wings the count was well scrutinised by all sides.
It would be nice if the people declaring that a ballot paper blank on the back is “totally illegal” would quote their source for this. Particularly after two or three people have posted that many councils were using papers printed only on one side with the unique identifier on the front.
Vote-rigging aside, I don’t think I’d feel so bad if the NO folk were basing their decisions on balanced facts given by an “unbiased” state broadcaster. Analysis suggests that the MSM’s communication has crucially influenced the outcome of the Referendum. I hope the YES movement communicates back even more effectively by building up a library of undisputed evidence backed up with court rulings. There must be some lawyers who voted YES and who are also gutted at how things turned out and want to contribute their expertise on the legal side.
Asking academics to help prove the case – there is at least one paper already referenced by “THE BIGGER THE LIE” on youtube – there are surely others. The collecting of video evidence needs to be completed before it gets timed out or “shredded”. Also there must be journalists disillusioned with what’s gone on in their newsroom who’d want to give evidence. Their evidence doubtless is being collated. Sending the evidence to Ofcom to “complement” their (of course) thorough investigation. And used as a reason for demanding a new referendum when the time is right.
@Scot Finlayson :
Now I wasn’t there, no do I live in Scotland. But I watched the videos and saw nothing conclusive.
I don’t know for American observers. But for Russian, may I recall to this honorable assembly that as long as the UK remains in the EU, and as long as the EU carry on its sanctions towards Russia, there might be some kingpins over there who would seize every opportunity to mess up things on this side of the barrier. For example, by sending observers to an election and then having them fake videos and claim fraud…
@handclapping, I was in an open cast coal mine in East Ayrshire earning a living. Does that make me a keyboard warrior? Does that mean I am not entitled to voice my opinion? Your abuse makes me wonder if I am on the right side.
macart763 @ 7:00
I posted this link way earlier in the thread but it was a bit O/T – maybe still is
I haven’t heard anything about it or who is involved – its all new to me. Not sure if anyone else can shed some light on it. It’s not up and running as yet and if I try and click on any of the links it just returns to the facebook page where I found it.
link to thecaledoniannewspaper.com
Ian Brotherhood says
”
This has to be one of the most bad-tempered threads ever to appear on WOS.
A bit ironic that some of our most enjoyable get-the-githers were in ‘The Counting House’, eh?”
Well at least here you dont get fire alarms and sombody necking you pint 🙂
STV a while ago, has Sturgeon refusing to rule out another Referendum and apparently saying “it will be sooner than anyone thinks”. Well, I think 2 years tops, so it must be sooner than that!
It means campaigning now, getting into all those NOes, not just one demographic, including (sore point) postal votes and postal voters – and analysing their dmographic, e.g. second holiday home owners (no chance) or care homes (every chance), or businesspeople going away a lot, or even people off on holiday partying in Ibiza.
To be honest, taking out our anger on each other at the moment, the next stage on from grief and despair, seems to me to be a GOOD IDEA, far better than doing it on the NOes who need to be wooed over the next few weeks and months.
So, to keep the pot boiling and the ire running here goes:
“I’m an arsehole, you’re an eejit”.
Read the first post here and tell me that you are still sure.
link to facebook.com
There was no fraud. Let the facts explain why.
There were 789,024 postal votes. The rate of spoiled papers is 0.09% so 710 posted votes were rejected. Which means that the net number of postal votes was 788,314.
If we split the postal vote exactly along the ratio of the final results (44.65% of votes cast were YES & 55.25% of votes cast were NO), then we can say that of all the votes that were posted by mail,
352,018 people voted YES
&
435,550 people voted NO
Now, the difference between all the YES votes & the NO votes that were received at the polling stations as well as the postal votes was 383,937 and half of that number is 191,969.
Thus, to achieve the result of the referendum by fraudulently changing YES postal votes, more than half of them (191,969/352,018*100 = 55%) would need to be switched.
The idea that over half of all the YES postal votes were switched for NO is simply ludicrous.
So let’s just put the conspiracies away until someone uncovers the Holy Grail in an Argyll bog.
I’m seeing a lot of “I did x, y and z. What did you do?” comments from the WOS staff. Honestly? I did nothing, except vote yes, and try to convince friends and family to vote yes. I didn’t know what else to do. I’ve never voted before this year. I’ve never took an interest in politics before this year. I only found this website about three weeks ago.
I would have loved to be more involved, and I had no idea how to get involved. I only found out afterwards about rallies that were organised in my area. That my friends went to.
I’m ready to be more involved. I’ve joined facebook groups, I’ve been invited to several rallies and I’ll go to some of them. I’m joining the Green Party next week.
It’s good that you guys got more involved, and I for one don’t consider any of you to be Westminster Double Agents, but please stop hating people who had no idea how to do more.
Our whole country needs a good solid education in politics, I think. And economics.
Anyway, I looked into vote rigging on my blog, before I read this, and dismissed most of the claims, and all of the video evidence. After reading this post, I dismissed more.
And then I read this blog: link to scottishreferedum.blogspot.co.uk
This is a blog post that has gathered up all the supposed evidence to make a case for vote rigging. A lot of what they say you’ve dismissed. Others, like Marc Pat, I’ve dismissed.
But that blog has a lot of others, a lot of people coming forward claiming they saw things, claiming they were volunteers or staff. Mhairi Kennedy, Joyce Armour, Jim Daly, Sharon McDonald, Paul Birrell – these are all people who claim to have been working on the vote in some capacity and saw suspicious or downright illegal behaviour.
And there is screen captures from social media of people boasting that they rigged the postal votes and voted from London, or from America. (Hopefully, they get charged).
I don’t know if it was rigged, though I believe it probably wasn’t, or if it was, No would still have won but by a much smaller margin. But I can’t quite dismiss those claims by people who supposedly worked on the vote and saw illegal or suspicious things happen.
@Morag
Can you counter this first post
link to facebook.com
@ghgraham
I am not talking about postal votes at all in my posts.
@ handclapping.
Again I can only agree. But with1.6 million yessers we can afford to let a few rummage. It has only been a few days since the vote, the next few weeks will be important and from what I have observed lots of good minds concentrating on how best to proceed. Plenty of discussion to come. We will not all agree but I think we are all united in a common cause unlike WM. They think its all over, its not.
@handclapping, your advice about volunteering at the GE might have been welcomed without the personal remark.I have voted SNP for forty years and campaigned many times so do one.
I nearly forgot, silly me. I – ME – I did all the work trying to get a YES vote, you lot did nothing, you lazy people.
Please feel free to gang up on me and tell me what I am 🙂
Anyone else notice that Murrayfield has just been renamed “BT Murrayfield”
After the Hastings boys efforts I guess it’s quite fitting.
The lesson to be learned here, IMHO, is that postal ballot is NOT a good idea, because even if there is no fraud, there will always be some stubborn nitpicking. Ergo, some other form of remote votation procedure must replace it and squash all doubts. I’m sure somebody here can come up with a better proposal.
Chris, I see an American author sounding off about something she knows nothing about.
Ignoring the principles of honesty and fairness, the ‘cheating’ issued from the violent methods employed by the British state to cow Scotland into submission.
Just one question, though: my husband’s ballot paper had a barcode on the back, but mine definitely didn’t. Should they all have had barcodes on the back?
Also, on a different topic, perhaps, why do you think the turnout was so low in the two Yes voting cities?
Carry on it’s sanctions against Russia.
26million Russians died in WW11 (1 in 4) for democracy UK style, ie secretly ripe off and abuse your smaller neighbour
1/2million British died.
Please explain what Ruth Davidson was up to counting postal votes weeks before the offical counting? http://www.internationalscotland.com
Have a look at the short interview with John Drum.
He sums up the current situation today.
link to new.livestream.com
@Chris Darroch I,ll show you my accomplishments if you show me yours.There aare many Wingers can make the claim to fame, do we do it NOT at all, we,re shy modest Cybernats.But you keep on swinging yer D*** wie any luck the wind will catch it & i,ll slap you in the face.
in the spirit also of promoting unity, can people make sure that they remember we all want the same thing here, which is full on independence. How we get there, and what opinions we have on related topics, what symbols we have (45 or otherwise), what political parties we join: they really don’t matter.
My advice is that everyone just remember that the posts over the last few days are people getting things off their chests. Please, no one spit the dummy. If someone winds you up, just remember that they’re probably in pain and still upset.
We need to start channelling our energy soon though.
There will be an assumption that we can’t maintain our energies and stay together for much longer. Let’s prove them wrong.
Calgacus,
And yet you didn’t consider the most important vote in 307 years worthy of your experience over 40 years.
@ronnieanderson
Apart from a mere GTF.
My response was designed to counter the suggestion by a few that folk (like myself) who are giving some respect to those who state that they did not see any unique identifying mark on their ballot; are somehow anti Wings.
DOOFUS.
I was also at the Aberdeen count and placed at a table counting the postal ballots for Moray.
Unfortunately I was the only one watching and there were four counters, two of whom were left-handed so I couldn’t see half the ballots nor the X’s thereon.
Thankfully the team lead was right-handed (most of the time) and let me see quite clearly both boxes on her sheets.
I was struck by a number of ballots (around 25) in close succession all marked NO in blue biro and some appeared very similar in style, not decisive X’s or a variation of but more akin to that of a child or a very old person with a very shaky hand.
I remember thinking they may have been filled out on behalf of the residents of an old folks home.
My tally was 150 Yes, 600 No.
I then monitored another table and saw similar patterns, albiet in smaller samples throughout that postal vote count.
There certainly appeared to be cases of voters voting on other voters’ behalf.
Maybe something to be looked into for future elections.
Chris Darroch,
Id recommend you retract that.
[…] the website Wings Over Scotland debunks all of them and makes it clear, that really people should be putting all that energy into the next round to […]
I see Cameron is to recall parliament about bombing in Iraqu he never thought about recalling it about British people starving and having to use food banks o know let’s worry about every body else but our own people he says Isis is a the art to us and Americas freedom well I could not care less about Americas freedom .,, i never thought I would see the day when an Afro American president would tell a country not once but twice that they were better of remaining slaves of another country make no mistake that is exactly what he was saying the American president made it clear he is not interested in my freedom so I am not interested in theirs
@bobsinclair
This?
”
Secondly the suggestion by @bobsinclair that the blank back concerns were “utter garbage ” is too simplistic.
His reasoning is the great difficulty he perceives in tallying the number of votes placed in the box at polling station with the number received at count; given an assumption that they could have been switched.
Surely for example, the fact is that a list of those who had voted had been ticked off in every single polling station. Given access to such a list; anyone wanting to place the correct switched number of ballots into a fraudulent box for the count; could simply look at that list of ticked off names and count them up.
“
@Chris Darroch
Please list the Councils that used mechanical counting and needed a barcode on the back.
Please list the Councils that did not use mechanical counting but had a barcode on the back
Please list the Councils that did not use mechanical counting and saved money by putting their Unique Identifier on the front
Then sort those complaining that their ballot paper was blank on the back between these 3 lists and come back to us
@handclapping
Who the hell are you?
Who the hell is “us”………………how excruciatingly pompous you sound.
Get some respect sucker !
Bastards.
link to twitter.com
If you haven’t yet, get it cancelled. (don’t illegally watch live telly of course)
Is this forum the Guardian forum by any chance ?
@Chris Darroch
I’m a pompous git who doesn’t suffer fools
@handclapping
I think that you are not for Yes at all.
You are here; merely to cause trouble I suspect.
Stop, jesus, just stop!
This is embarrassing.
The SNP has 60,000 + members, Greens have more than doubled and the response to such a disappointing defeat has been fantastic; better than anyone could have hoped for.
Except for this vote rigging stuff. Just agree to disagree instead of getting even more argumentative.
Too much resistance to reason here today. I am not going to besmirch this venerable site any further by battling against that.
Cheers !
@chris Darroch
You are the one trolling
Consider the words of the Rev Stu “We lost. There was no conspiracy. Now let’s get to work winning.”
How are your lists going? There are 32 Councils, it should be quite easy.
@bob sinclair, I did, I voted YES.
I’m tired. I’ve been tramping the streets and driving up farm tracks with the anodyne, boring Yes Scotland literature since it was snowing. And latterly with the Wee Blue Book and the Wings leaflets. I’ve forced myself out to do it when I was cringing inside from the prospect of being yelled at by another angry No voter who didn’t want the inside of his letterbox polluted with Yes propaganda.
I’ve been to meetings and I’ve organised public meetings and I’ve manned street stalls. I even kitted my car out in Yes decals and erected a flagpole for my Yes saltire.
I’ve also been to concerts and film evenings and plays and Yes social events, so it hasn’t been all bad. But I was so stressed by it all I got shingles a month before the actual vote. I’m also under investigation for another medical complaint I suspect is stress-related.
I took my 2-week summer holiday from 8th to 19th September so that I would be free to work for the Yes campaign. I opened my house to three Plaid Cymru activists who has kindly volunteered to come up and help – and I haven’t done all the laundry yet I’m afraid.
On the day itself I nannied three very rural polling stations, and drove to “get out the vote” 25 miles away. I then drove to the count, an hour and a half away, and worked all night watching a remarkably honest and transparent system do its job. I commiserated with devastated young activists at four in the morning, trying to raise their spirits.
I went back to work on Monday, and on Tuesday I was at the first post-referendum meeting of our local SNP branch. Having sat up till stupid o’clock on Monday night trying to counter these mad conspiracy theories on an earlier thread.
So yes, maybe I am a bit short-tempered. Suffering fools has never been my specialist subject. But if the people who were appointed by Wings and other groups to monitor the system are all saying they have no concerns about large-scale systematic vote-rigging, then maybe the people who haven’t been running themselves ragged trying to support the cause could just STFU, no?
Many thanks to Doug, Morag and many others that were following the ballots or at the counts for telling us how the system works. I never knew all that before. It was very enlightening.
I do not believe that 400,000+ votes were rigged. I believe that it was the BBC wot done it and that a UKIP MEP in Scotland was the dry run. It explains all the delight from the BBC staff at the win.
However it is now time to move on. If we are to take Labour on directly in their own constituencies perhaps we can learn about the opposition around the ballot from some of the comments.
First up they were very well organised. Helping old folk to register and cast their votes. How did they know where all the old folk live (age/address and telephone number)? Can we also get their source of information and use it in a similar way.
Secondly, they went round to the doors of the old folk, posing as officials. Warning that they would be back to collect the pension book if there was a Yes vote. We really need to get round the old folk to counter any such blatant lies and reassure.
Thirdly they are very tribal. Ignored other people at the polling station and went straight to their own representatives. Is there any way to break this down or infiltrate to let another point of view in?
Fourth, where do they get their support from? Are the Unions still involved to any extent? Should we approach Unions?
Fifth, as some are concerned about ballot boxes not being followed and there not being enough people to accompany them all, then more of us should volunteer and we would see the system for ourselves. Or we could get tracking devices in them all.
Just a few things to work on. We need to know the enemy in order to take them on effectively, and we need to start moving on now!
@Chris Darroch, careful Chris, I think there might be a three line whip here.
@
Chris Darroch
Are you for real. I have never seen you posting here before and I know Handclapping personally.
Back off.
They did not use postal vote sampling to change tack, they did that as a result of private polls that showed YES ahead by four points. That figure comes from Laura Kunsberg of whatever her name is.
Re campaign going forward, its simples.
2016 Scottish Elections SNP only has one thing on manifesto = Abolition of Treaty of Union.
If they get 50% +1 on first past post basis, When the Parliament convenes, we have a vote on abolition. With the help of the List MSP’s , Greens etc no problem.
If we don’t get 50% +1 although we are likely to be the largest party we say as we have not been elected on our manifesto commitment, we decline to govern. We let Labour run a minority administration. We give them enough rope to hang themselves, with the austerity cuts coming through and loss of Barnet consequentials they will have to cut free bus passes for elderly , prescriptions, impose higher education fees etc. (Which they will do anyway without much prompting)
Boris/Farage duo in London meanwhile will be setting up a Euro exit referendum. When the timing is right we call a no confidence motion on Labour, defeat them meaning a new Scottish Election and if we don’t win that one we never will….
@Calgacus
Well done, voting brother, so did I.
Its just that there is no point in crying over spilt milk, we’ll not get a 400,000 majority overturned. We need to get on to what to do now. How best to get our 1.6 million voting to get Independentist candidates elected to Westminster in the place of the 53 Unionist stooges
@ealasaid:
I think the possibility that Labour and/or other parties use old folks’ homes as vote farms for the postal ballot must be considered.
OK,
I’m done commenting on this thread due to the ranting of certain people who seem to see the world through paranoia tinted glasses. That and the attacks on people who I have a lot of respect for due to their hard work honesty and good humour has got me to the point where I might just say something I regret.
See you all on the next thread when, hopefully, things will have calmed down
Cameron and Obama created ISIS they armed, supplied and supported them for the past two years against Assad. Now they are bombing them to bits. They are a couple of murdering idiots and other things. They are killing people at home and abroad.
@Bugger
I do not recognise Chris Darroch before either. Kid Spotlight was another name I had not read on here since the result came through. I am afraid it looks like some individuals are trying to disrupt this site.
@B(tP)
Wil you ever be able to live down the shame of that admission? 😉
Complete change of track here.
Working down in sunny London today and have been looking at local news TV and papers. The “good” news is that the media here have completely moved on. Not a mention of the referendum anywhere – not even in Milliband’s speech. They are already obsessing about next GE.
That, along with Syria, inevitably means they will take eye of ball which just means that the likelihood of them delivering on their timetable gets more remote with each passing day. We should all be planning on the next phase, how we organise now for the GE campaign, getting literature planned etc. Many of the YES groups have now got back together. We can move the momentum on ourselves and work down at the grassroots level on the target areas we know we need to work on. I loved the idea of the wee red book for the GE of all the lies from BT, past profiles and quotes from BLAB members etc. GIven the impact of the wee blue book we should get the wee red book out much earlier in the campaign process. Lets all get our thinking hats on. There are now 60,000 footsoldiers in the SNP who are presumably up for getting out there and campaigning. Exciting times ahead.
Bob Sinclair honey, don’t worry we’ve delivered a severe whipping to Chris Darroch and I think everyone has agreed to calm down – am I right dearests?
Hey peeps, google is your friend, Just search for – wings over scotland Chris Darroch – or handclapping and you’ll see them both have posted here on the side of YES.
Well I see that was a bit hopeful then….
That may be so yesindyref2 but being nasty to Ronnie Anderson is not allowed – its the only rule in Wings 😉
@alistair
The British establishment does not care about Scotland, we are a source of wealth to them through the oil. We are a possession, to make those with power, and some who does not have any, feel important. That is the long and short of it.
So, the oil will last for decades more – and that’s just the North Sea stuff, still waiting on west of Shetland and West Coast; the NHS is under threat according to Labour; it’s now a good time to go bombing.
Any No voters still trust the ‘Imperial Masters’?
Or are we still giving it big licks on conspiracy theories?
Morag
Whit dae ye mean yir washns no done
Whit kind o wummin ir ye
HIV ye no hid yer cereal
I think the justification for having another run at an independence mandate has to be extremely clear. And it has nothing to do with the integrity of the vote.
The Yes campaign made slow but steady progress throughout 2014, despite an unremitting barrage of negativity and scaremongering from the media, amplifying the Better Together line. And despite Westminster throwing everything it had into the mix, with government reports telling us we’d be benkrupt and Cameron calling in favours all over the globe to get foreign interests to say negative things about us.
About 30th August something happened. Scotland seemed to catch fire. Everyone was talking about it. The imagination of the voters was engaged, to the point where even then some early postal No voters were expressing some regret. I believed we were on a roll, a bandwagon that would carry us over the finishing line.
Then there was an opinion poll showing Yes in the lead, and then all hell broke loose. If the previous two years of media coverage had felt like sustained domestic abuse, these last two weeks were like being on the wrong end of a seal-clubbing exercise.
The rise in the Yes vote stalled, but it didn’t reverse. I remarked that if Scotland still voted Yes after the beating-up that was being administered, it would be an act of extraordinary courage. I still thought we’d do it though.
So did Westminster, apparently, postal vote lead or not. That’s when Brown was wheeled on with his empty promises, and the media encouraged to represent his offer as the fabled “Devo-max”. At the same time there was a very targeted scare campaign towards the elderly, focussing on telling them their pensions would disappear if there was a Yes vote. That did it. The Yes vote was depressed by 6 or 7 percentage points instead of rising as expected.
Devo-max was a lie. Oil running out was a lie. Pensions disappearing was a lie. EU citizens being deported was a lie. Prices going up was a lie.
No won on lies and false promises. That is becoming not just clear but documentable. So far, I imagine the regretful No voters will be a fairly small minority of the 200,000 we’d need to change their mind, but that will grow.
These are the grounds Nicola needs to concentrate on and document, to justify any relatively quick re-visiting of the independence issue. I imagine she understands this a lot better than I do.
Roll on a few months I say…
Ok folks, this foolish idiot has had quite enough, sorry for having the temerity to question the fairness of the postal vote. I see that you are all jumping on another commenter, flamers.
I have been with this Wings from near the beginning but it doesn’t feel the same anymore.
Goodbye and goodluck
Just a wee change of subject
I hope people on social media are posting the real facts as they appear to their friends and others.
A winning method is –
(Relevant fact said in a few words)
Source posted with it.
Such as –
Real difficulties foreseen in meeting party leaders pledges!
new.livestream.com/IndependenceLive/events/3423955
Nice and concise and to the point with the source there to be investigated.
That beats arguing about who screwed who over (or maybe not?)at the ballot count.
Not that im above an argument myself, but there are independence supporters out their who until now have thought they were with BT.
I am sorry I wasted part of my life reading all the comments posted on this thread.
I shall be off line for over a week, Friday I shall be drinking in Lichfield with former work-mates, Sunday driving my MG in South Wales, The rest of the week walking in the Welsh countryside.
PLEASE when I return lets have WoS back to what it was. An informative, enjoyable site with a forum that was rancour free, educational and fun.
Enough is enough.
Ah Liz. The washing will get done. I washed plenty while the Plaid guys were here. Who knew Welsh canvassers liked a clean shirt every morning! They were worth it though, bless their hearts.
I slipped and fell while carrying a box of Wee Blue Books that was a bit too heavy for me, and I’m still suffering from a tender tailbone. That’s my excuse and I’m sticking to it.
@Morag.
”Anodyne, boring Yes Scotland literature…”
I agree. eg. Far too much money was spent on huge posters that just weren’t imaginative enough. The tit for tat leaflets from both sides were just silly. ie they say it will cost us such and such, and we say, no, it will mean we will be such and such better off. Boring.
I persuaded the Yes team to write an article for the USA Celtic Guide (not the football team) on line magazine. The article was bland and dull. I wished I had written the article for the magazine myself. It was obvious that the writer hadn’t understood exactly what the online magazine was about. It was about CULTURE. Not boring politics.
We needed a lot more passion and imagination in the campaign and it just wasn’t forthcoming. There’s been more passion and out of the box thinking this last five days than there was for much of the three years.
As regards the ‘vote rigging’ forget it folks. It didn’t happen. Or if it did it was to such a small degree that it made no difference. Time to move on guys and get those imaginative brain cells going. We have a country to win.
Something that does not ring true is the story of someone coming back to collect the OAPs pension book
Does anyone have a pension book nowadays I thought they were all done away with
Cameron and Obama’s allies on their latest venture wasting £Billions of public money are Charlies sword dancing pals. The Saudis. The most despot absolute monarchy in the world, who funded the 9/11 participants. That is what Unionist voters in Scotland signed up to support.
I’m all for a good conspiracy rant but seeing that it’s completely preposterous I say make your conspiracies equally so.
For example, BT only employed people suffering from double vision or a form of dyscalculia to do the counting?
Or perhaps people thought marking an x meant they thought that was the wrong option so crossed out no.
Either make the conspiracy properly mental or accept the result and just try harder when we get another shot in a couple of years.
Conspiracies are only likely to scare away the soft yesses and those are the ones we need to solidify so they can get more next time.
Plus they make you look like a complete moron to rational people.
Okay a wee reminder to you from above. It fair heartened me.
link to new.livestream.com
Ok Morag
Let ye aff THIS time but in future the ONLY excuse is a hangover from our INDY PARTY
AGREED !!!!!
Colin Mccartney says:24 September, 2014 at 6:56 pm:
“And as for postal votes !!!!!!! Ive never in my life met anyone who uses them, that has checked that they got there, or has been verified by the relevant authorities that they used a postal vote to vote.”
Well you have now. Mind you they only verify your postal vote got there but can’t tell you if it has been altered in any way. It is simply a case of going to a website and keying in the strange password they give you – typing in your DOB and the confirmation comes up if it has arrived.
can anyone please answer this and does the buying of these support wings
O/T question when i click on the wings store all the prices are in $ is there a way to change this.
Or maybe we are better together with the Americans as well (joke)
p.s just joined the SNP as well
@Morag
I was never that confident about a Yes vote I am afraid to say. We made a lot of progress in the last 3 years, utterly unthinkable even 10 years ago. However, I strongly feel we came up against a power that was mighty, I have no doubts about that. It was able to exert tremendous force on us, particular in the last few weeks. This campaign has been a profound learning experience. We were up against the force of the British state, and it still has massive power.
We need to think about how we develop our own media, how we reach difficult groups and communicate with them effectively, we need to take on and defeat SLAB overwhelmingly in Scotland, both at local level, and at Westminster/Holyrood. We also need to find ways to keep the interest of the electorate going, and participating more in the political process. We have loads of things to do, and it will not happen overnight. However, we have to be ready for next time. Doug Daniel was right, we had an agreed process before we had a broad based movement.
The most positive thing is we gave them a hell of a fight and fright. We need to hold them to account for their promises, and push for substantial powers for Holyrood.
A large number of agitators I don’t recognise. It looks like a focused attempt to undermine Wings.
We ignored Trolls in the past ( mostly) I wonder why everyone is biting now?
last post i meant wings superstore here
link to cafepress.com
Maybe my OCD, but with it all explained away I don’t personally understand why the no table had mixed piles. If there was a no table there would be a yes table nearby. How difficult to place them on appropriate table as you go? It’s just more work to pile then sort! Either that, or don’t mark the tables until they’re to be separated to avoid the confusion and allegations that were made.. I know it’s all explained but I just find it a bit disorganised. There are other words I would use but that’s the most gracious. Like I say, my OCD, I’d be compelled to sort them out sooner or question labelling the table. That’s just me though.
@Morag 8.42pm
Without wishing to sound sycophantic, I agree with every word you say.
Previous posters have done the electoral arithmetic : we were 200,000+1 votes short of victory. There are rich pickings still to be made, particularly still amongst disillusioned Labour voters. The battle was lost but the war is certainly not over.
PS. Despite the result, I’m retaining my posting name.
I remember once being sent a postal vote pack, and the stuff had obviously been stored somewhere damp. The wee envelope you’re supposed to put the voting paper into was already firmly stuck down.
I slit it open and put my ballot into it and taped it shut. I put a note inside the outer envelope explaining that the small envelope was already gummed shut when I received it. This was long before the internet was even a gleam in Tim Berners-Lee’s eye.
I have no idea whether the vote was counted or not. I suspect the entire batch of envelopes might have been the same way, as the cause was obviously storage in a cold damp place like a garage. I still like to speculate what the returning officer and the party agents did when they were verifying that particular batch of postals.
Stuff happens. 400,000-vote fiddles don’t happen without leaving a trail a blind sloth could follow though.
@Democracy Reborn
So you should, we got a turnout that was one of the highest in the UK’s history.
Paula Rose says
“Bob Sinclair honey, don’t worry we’ve delivered a severe whipping to Chris Darroch”
Dammit, I always miss the best bits,
thats your fault Ronnie. 😉
@Clootie
In a few weeks emotions will be under more control. There will still be trolls no doubt.
Morag says:
24 September, 2014 at 8:14 pmI’m tired. I’ve been tramping the streets and driving up farm tracks with the anodyne, boring Yes Scotland literature since it was snowing. And latterly with the Wee Blue Book and the Wings leaflets.
Morag thank you – you are truly one of Jock Thampsons bairns.
Yes sticker still on the car and yes badge still on. Don’t let the bastirts grind you down
@robert kerr
I second that motion. About time to take break. Hope this site gets back to business soon.
Muttley: I was never that confident about a Yes vote I am afraid to say.
Agreed.
Too many scornful kith and kin antagonistic to anything wholly ‘Scottish,’ too many incomers, settlers, and those in the pay of the British state.
Next time has to be the occasion we ‘take’ our independence, not open it out to all-comers.
hope I’m not accused of agitating here but what about Cameron’s visit to Shetland? Wow, how naive I now realise I’ve been; was quietly confident we’d win the referendum but now realise, in retrospect, how tough that was gonna be.
Does anyone know what that website Simplify2014.com was all about. I noticed it when it was launched over a year ago, as a research tool for individuals and organisations to use to ascertain indyref facts and figures.
I had been waiting for its full launch and advertising in the run up to the vote but came to nought. Looked like it could have been quite a useful too.
Morag I agree that’s what happened. At the same time though there was a huge enthusiasm and happiness amongst the YES supporters and that definitely helped o sway more to YES. But it also exaggerated the perceived support for YES.
The word “psy-ops” was mentioned earlier and I’ve certainly been, shall we say, aware of it in my postings. All genuine stuff but perhaps angled a little at times. I think a lot of YES campaigners consciously or unconscsiously used psy-ops to generate the feel we were all confident on winning, perhaps to say to people “be on the winning side, vote YES”.
Well it turned out we were wrong. But the huge, immense, enormous feat is having turned a 25% nutcase support for Independence into a mainstream 45% which could have ended up 55%, 60% or more but for a very successful NO campaign.
YES Scotland wasn’t just anodyne their website was garbage. BT had articles straight in your face “no pound”, “pensions bust”, “oil declining”. YES had – a video of birth “my name is Kirsty”. Pathetic.
Next time which won’t be long now once Devo-Max busts, we need a better formal YES campaign, a charismatic leader with enthusisam who can make mistakes nobody cares, it just needs enthusaism. And a far better web designer!
We’ll be here, even more enthusiastic than before, including handclapping and Chris Darroch and calgacus!
By the way, it might be that the anodyne YES campaign was exactly what was needed to get from 25% to 45%, but it needed something else to get from 45% to 60%. Who knows! The SNP strategists are presumably working on that RIGHT NOW. The danger was of interrupting the momentum, rather than pushing it on, which is probably why the official campaign hung back. Website was always garbage though, no easy information or rebuttals.
Tweet from SNP.org:
“Peter Murrell6 days on, but still they come! 35,104 new @theSNP members, overall total now 60,746. Join us and make a difference: t.co/kSeYpyEDK8 “
Keep on like this and we will be the biggest party in The UK.
Have a look at this link
link to bbc.co.uk
Sorry if it’s been posted before but you couldn’t make it up.
Muttley, I hear what you’re saying. I wasn’t confident either. My heart was telling me that Scotland wanted independence. My head was telling me that the media were giving us a hell of a beating-up and it was bound to be having some effect.
I think that’s why I’ve been showing symptoms of stress. Holding that much hope, while seeing the hope take a battering, is inherently stressful.
One of the reasons I felt relatively calm in the aftermath was that I knew I’d done my reasonable best. I gave up a great deal of free time, gladly. As well as regular contributions to both Yes Scotland and the SNP, I chipped in for a lot of the fundraisers. I’ll cherish my gold Wings badge forever.
I think what we’re seeing now in all the joining that’s going on is freeloaders’ remorse. People who left it to others and now realise they should have been active. What could the SNP have done with 60,000 members a year ago?
That doesn’t mean that many No voters have turned already. That will take time. It does mean that Yes isn’t going away.
There is a lot going on in civic Scotland. The flowering of political consciousness is continuing and those that supported Yes are blossoming.
We did not win this particular battle but we are far from defeated. The No side is I think in partial shock at what is happening to party membership, in opinion polls and on the street. They may have lied and cheated their way to a win through the media and their friends in business and international politics but they are paying a price. We need to focus on the battles ahead and make sure they pay in full – not argue over theoretical conspiracies.
Let’s get this site back to what it does best, hold the media and those who stood against Scottish independence to account. There is no shortage of candidates.
Caledonia
Up in the top right hand corner of the Wings Megastore page is a tab marked Currency. Click on it for a drop down list and choose GBP (or whatever)
Its a USA helpline number so guessing the items are shipped from there.
Apologies if this is a repeat post but my internet connection is slooooooowwww. Someone probably beat me to it.
@one less day
It may not have been pension book, as I repeated from someone further up the comments, but there were reports, before the vote, of UKOK mini buses with large guys in suits from south of the border not canvassing but looking for specific addresses. Others here reported finding terrified pensioners in tears having been visited and/or phoned and told that they would get no more pension if there is a Yes vote. This undoubtedly did happen as reported from more than one here.
If we had anything like a neutral media, a campaign from BT based on facts(not lies and fear), and just Scottish based participants
we would have won hands down. Although that was never going to happen, establishment had too much too lose.
I see the Buckingham Palace has been rumbled trying to apply for benefits. What next eh!
link to news.sky.com
muttley 79
ANOTHER WINGS VICTORY
If there are troll’s on here we have taught them to at least stay ON TOPIC
IMHO that’s ALMOST as much fun as 45% of Scotland making WM bend
But not nearly as much satisfaction as knowing that when the 55% join us
They will have to BEND OVER
Today was the first post-referendum meeting of one of the pensioners’ groups I am in. Therein, myself and one other member are very-much in the minority, the only two admitted Yes voters.
Today, however, one or two of the others admitted they had voted No because they feared their pensions would not be paid – so, their votes were bought with lies.
One or two others admitted, they liked the idea of Devo-Max being delivered – so, here again, their votes were bought by lies, and, already, one or two are admitting, they cannot see Devo-Max being delivered soon.
So, already, less than a week on from the vote – some of the worms are turning.
Next time – but, only if we in the 45 keep working.
Anodyne lacklustre official Yes campaign. (Culminating in my receiving the Yes fleece I ordered two weeks before the vote on 19th September. Or not actually, all I have yet is a note from the postie saying there wasn’t enough postage on it, come and get it and bring your wallet. And I believe they sent me the wrong size so I’m in no hurry.)
Now there’s a conspiracy theory I’m not yet ready to kick out of bed for eating crackers.
Hand and Shrimp at 9.14
I totally agree with every word you’ve written. I’ve grown very tired of the lunatic ravings of conspiracy theorists and the angry bile of the deluded. Let’s get back to the task in hand.
@Robert Peffers
thanks Robert, you learn something every day – bonus points for being the first lol
He’s back. Will somebody let him know he doesn’t need to read the comments on this thread.
Thanks Doug for putting this tiresome squirrel to rest. I skipped through all the other guff questioning it.
We have a job on our hands and need to get on with it. My Yes group is reconvened and our aim is to destroy Local Labour at the GE.
Those liars and deceivers will fall on their sword as we all know with their false promises disappearing in the explosions of another illegal war ringing in their dissembling ears..but we must be there to administer the coup de gras at the polling station.
What we have discovered in the loosing is our stength. The young ones did us very proud. This is there first taste of British Empire power. This is probably their first notion of how dirty politics really is. So the allure of conspirancy theory is bright in their young minds.
The Empire will not go down without a fight and the young ens know that now. Give them the vote and the Empire will reap the whirlwind.
We know, as seasoned warriors that, even if, there was jiggery pokery in the count it makes no odds.
Play the long game. The Westminster elite will be at each other like wolves. Stand back and let them make war,let them disadvantage the poor and the vunerable.
Let them reap what the sow.
We are not going away. We are a nation in our hearts and souls.
Ealasaid, I also have an example of pensioner bullying, at least second-hand. During the count, while I was having a snack break, I was talking to one of the SNP councillors. He said something had happened at a polling station earlier in the day that really upset him. He said that an elderly couple had told him they’d just voted No – “of course we had to”. He asked why they believed they had to. They said that Better Together had been round and had explained to them that their pensions would be stopped if there was a Yes vote.
I spent a day about three weeks ago printing out Wee Blue Books in large print format. Enough for every flat in the local sheltered housing complex. I also printed Jim Sillars’ open letter to pensioners. One of our WFI group had a pass key to the complex and she delivered them to every flat, with the final Yes leaflet and the wee WFI leaflet.
The trouble is, I have no idea if anyone read them.
Will everyone please just get a grip!
1. Get together with your fellow activists and plan.
2. Print some leaflets/fliers on an agreed topic… the WBB is still a font of knowledge!
3. Get the leaflets/fliers out to the people who took us at our word and voted ‘Yes’. Reassure them that we are still here and are going nowhere but forward to an independent Scotland. Keep them interested, RECRUIT them.
4. Get the leaflets/fliers into the hands of ‘No’ voters; they think it’s all over so may be slightly more amenable.
STOP WHINGING ON HERE AND DO SOMETHING,
Incidently all three boxes from Tain were Yes!
I hope that the wit and humour that characterised WoS during the campaign returns soon. When battling against the “might” of the establishment forces, the quick wit shown on here often gave me an edge, or defused a potentially difficult situation.
I look forward to laughing again at so many of your posts.
Thank you.
@ Aw Paula Rose ah knew you cared fur me , but honest am a big boy noo ah kin even change ma ain nappys so nothing spethial here move along now. xx
The only way Scotland will win independence is by everyone getting behind the SNP and voting SNP at every single opportunity. It is because of the SNP and Alex Salmond we got to the referendum in the first place, lets keep it there and hit them where it hurts in the ballot boxes at elections.
To send 40 SNP MPs to Westminster would be a massive signal it may even be enough to hold the balance of power. I can see Alex Salmond making a return there. Once the ball is over the line then Scotland can and will divide up in to it’s political preferences. But first we must punish the charlatans and con merchants of Labour and the rest of them. Vote SNP all the time.
The Greens and the Socialists need to help us in that. As Tommy Sheridan has already indicated. Only then will we become as powerfull as the state machine that rolled us over, with it’s lies and propaganda. What ha shappened since must make everyone sick. Including vast numbers of No voters who have been stung.
The surge in SNP memberships is very encouraging, and indicates that voters are seeing the SNP as the only way forward now. Please do this folks, it is our only realisitc hope.
Wish all this speculation would stop, let’s move on. Anyway, managed to join the SNP earlier on tonight – never been motivated to join a political party before, feels strange to me – casting a yes vote should have been enough. The BBC, media and no supporting businesses will soon be feeling our collective wrath if we keep this up. I’ve been kicked in the arse and am off the bench – feels good becoming an ‘agitator’. I live in Aberdeen for my sins, how fucking ashamed can you be.
Morag
I know exactly how you feel.Thanks for everything.The referendum must be looked on as an essential part of a process.We got the debate and it opened the peoples minds to independence.
last time a bunch of SNP went to westminster it ended in disaster
need YEScanidates from all parties
WTF happened to my post?
The only way Scotland will win independence is by everyone getting behind the SNP and voting SNP at every single opportunity. It is because of the SNP and Alex Salmond we got to the referendum in the first place, lets keep it there and hit them where it hurts in the ballot boxes at elections.
To send 40 SNP MPs to Westminster would be a massive signal it may even be enough to hold the balance of power. I can see Alex Salmond making a return there. Once the ball is over the line then Scotland can and will divide up in to it’s political preferences. But first we must punish the charlatans and con merchants of Labour and the rest of them. Vote SNP all the time.
The Greens and the Socialists need to help us in that. As Tommy Sheridan has already indicated. Only then will we become as powerfull as the state machine that rolled us over, with it’s lies and propaganda. What ha shappened since must make everyone sick. Including vast numbers of No voters who have been stung.
The surge in SNP memberships is very encouraging, and indicates that voters are seeing the SNP as the only way forward now. Please do this folks, it is our only realisitc hope.
@ Morag am getting paranoid ah was eating crackers in bed last night, do you think someones watching me.It would have been Walkers shortbread fingers but at £2.99 a pk those tourists in Emboro are being fleeced.
Hen, that has been my thought since the 1980s. I’ve stuck to it, and to its credit the party hasn’t done too much that I disagreed with.
For our pains, those of us who joined Scotland’s only independence movement 20 years ago, had to listen to newcomers to the campaign curry favour with the media by declaring “I’m not a nationalist but…” and revealing that “I don’t like Alex Salmond either”.
The SNP is in this for the long haul and always has been. We’re monstered as “nationalists” and we suck it up and try to explain about self-determination and civic nationalism, rather than trying to pretend that you can support independence for your country without being “a nationalist” of one sort or another.
Welcome on board to all the new recruits.
It has to be SNP for the way forward, no other party has the clout, organisation, administration and experience of government. Everyone is free to do what they wish but not getting behind the SNP will simply split the vote.
“Some, like Jim Murphy hugging Tories in Clydebank of all places.”
Read this earlier.
Any pics? Anyone?
Please.
@yesindyref2 / morag and others.
I thought it was just me – thank goodness others out there thought that the official Yes material and website was feeble. When you saw all the brilliant graphics used on line compared to the official yes stuff. I thought the booklet they sent out on the last week wasn’t bad but that should have been sent out on week1 not the last week !
I think learning point for me (along lines of Wbb) is to crowd fund printing powerful material and getting it out there. Because Wbb didn’t come from a political party made a big difference with a lot of people. (Some) people were getting pissed off with the politicians so its good to have independent material. We need more of that next time round.
I came to this site by accident a few months ago, well after many of you. What impressed me most was the dissection of Better Together statements and stories. This dissection was usually backed up with fact, sometimes so basic it was embarrassing. Occasionally I got fed up with some of the comments but just put that down to we’re all different.
We’ve been stuffed and some have to get the disappointment out their system now lets back to what you do best exposing the lies and coverups, especially when done with a sense of humour, something sorely lacking from the No Campaign.
We have a billboard near us at Longcroft. It has pound coins on it and along the bottom “Don’t risk your pound, pay, pension. Vote No” They paid lots of money for this type of advertising. Somebody stuck a YES sticker over the No and for a couple of pence screwed them.
My IT skills are nothing compared to you lot so all I can do is pass on the info. you give me. I was able to swing 3 no’s and 10 undecided over to yes because of WOS. Please folks lets build on our strengths and get on with the fight.
Hi folks
Brilliant article, Doug, and good for you Morag, might see you soon at a local meeting (I’m in Jedburgh). Just managed to get onto the SNP website at last and joined up with my husband; now browsing “We are the 45” merchandise ready for October 12th (thanks for the info on that, guys). Looking forward to seeing lots of you there; can’t wait to drive along the M8 with my saltires and my 45 signs.
Have been wearing my spider necklace to work since Monday; no one’s dared ask me what it means. Yes sticker back on car, Yes badge and wristband back on as soon as I leave work. Love you all (not the trolls)- of course we will get there, it’s just going to take a wee bit longer than we thought. Hail Alba.
I am fed up with conspiracy theories that look at the atomic aspect of the vote. Strategy looks at the big picture.
We need to read up on Noam Chomsky for some basic guidance and best practice against States and establishment.
Can’t believe I’m stuck in moderation; is this what happens when you don’t post for a day or 2? 🙂
OT [HA HA TROLL’S]
Morag see whit yiv dun
Wan mention o yer tail bone and that Ronnie Anderson is talkin aboot his bedroom habits
Paula Rose will be sooo pissed [AND NOT IN A GOOD WAY]
Natasha
I think there are attacks going on I had an innocuous post not get through this morning.
Last tine Unionists candidates were set from Scotland it ended in disaster. An illegal war, secretly wasted Oil revenues, tax evasion, a bank crash, an enomous debt caused by London Bankers, austerity, people being sanction and having to walk to food banks. What was the SNP disaster again?
SNP protected NHS/Education, elderly care, bus passes, alleviated ‘room tax’ etc. New Forth bridge, Commonwealth Games. Hopefully AWPR.
I think the huge thread lengths make things a bit cranky too. I’ve had a couple disappear into the ether.
Didn’t attend the count but I have attended counts in the past and agree that fiddling the actual count would be next to impossible.
I do have concerns in regard to postal voting though.
Most obvious I suppose is the registering of a vote before the latter part of the campaign has been completed.
There are reasonable questions too as to whether it is more susceptible to impersonation or whether it is as free from close proximity partisan influences on the voter as the polling stations are at the point of execution.
Didn’t attend the count but I have attended counts in the past and agree that fiddling the actual count would be next to impossible.
I do have concerns in regard to postal voting though.
[…] Wings Over Scotland ran a good piece by Douglas Daniel in which debunks conspiracy theories surrounding the referendum count and imparts some knowledge about the counting process. Full Story here. […]
Wow! What has happened to this comments section? Is this some kinda test sent down fae the Rev? I used to get a real buzz here from the regular “45” people that posted. I realise your all pretty frazzled, so take a break from WOS. We need positivity not a bitch fight!! There are thousands of people like myself, who are new to political engagement, reading these comments. You guys have your ” dark room” for refuse, so fucking use it!
Im assuming that the GE campaigns by the unionists parties will be based on more fear and lies, the bigger the lie and the scarier the story will win. It worked here and other places.
Im also assuming that the no voters in Scotland will be more wary of this negative campaigning style, especially as their lies and scaremongering are exposed over the next few months.
The great thing for the SNP is that the GE is taking place not long after the ref. As long as we stay on the ball which is to get rid of blab, theres lots still to play for.
A couple of campaign mistakes I heard of from NOes who did a bit of campaigning. First was people handing out the WBB saying it was neutral, when in the introduction it clearly says it’s pro-independence. Second was a YES campaigner rattling on about the Poll Tax and Thatcher – to a 24 year old who wasn’t even born for poll tax. That led to the conversion to NO of about 5 to 10 of that age group in the last week.
Next time it’s got to stick to the absolute truth, and be targetted. BT clearly targetted their campaigners according to age and demographics. The grassroots didn’t, and that’s not a criticism, an out of control grassroots is obviously out of control and that’s a huge strength – but also a potential weakness.
Maj who gets £400million a year maintenance. Increased £5Million a year in 2011 Budget. Bought new £2million coach to go with the collection. A personal fortune of £300million.
Some people have no shame. 5 people in the UK own more than 1/5, (20%) of the population. The wealth of the wealthiest increased 15% last year.
How about we all stop slagging each other off or it will tear us apart and 45 will start to shrink.
We need to galvanise ourselves, plan and go forth and multiply. Take the message out to the 55 that we have been sold a donkey. There will be no more meaningful powers, there is loads of oil, our NHS is in jeopardy. More importantly we need to make traditional Labour voters see that our current MP’s and MSP’s have lied to us all along the line. We must gather behind an individual candidate for each Westminster constituency for the GE. For many it will be hard to swallow that the candidate will be SNP however we must be reassured that the outcome will yield the desired effect. Harder still of course will be when we go out and canvass the less astute that this is the only way to make significant progress after the calamity that we have just endured.
I have been personally heartened to see the upsurge of support of the pro indy parties and the generally positive outlook of most on social media but we must exercise strict self discipline to avoid squabbling about the minutia or indeed trying to exert our own specific brand of politic. This is far to big to risk splitting the vote over whether you are x or y or z. What counts is we all want our marvellous nation to become a truly independent country. We work out the politics after we have achieved the independance.
There are people coming on here who’s mission in life is to upset us and divert thinking “PLEASE” do yourselves a favour “DO NOT ENGAGE WITH THEM”
Hey, now that we’ve all blown a gasket and got gripes of our chest, can we get back to being the wonderful Wingers that we are?
‘Cause Stuey’s back and just tweeted:
‘Belated thanks to @euanmccolm for the thousands of pounds that finally arrived in our bank this week for his defamation in the Scotsman.’
Wonder if the payment was deliberately delayed to after the indy ref? (Need to take my tin foil hat off!)
Hi, I assume comments are moderated as I posted earlier but no appearance of it. Perhaps as it’s my first post I’m regarded as a troll? I am not, I assure you, but you don’t know me so my assurances count for nothing really. I appreciate many of you who worked tirelessly, you must be exhausted after all that hard work, I know my friend is, but I take a bit umbrage at calling new SNP members freeloaders, it makes this page sound like a clique and that you don’t want new contributors. I just joined the party, yes, but that does not mean that I didn’t have discussions and try to extend information to people who do not use social media or indeed pay attention to the news, I perhaps didn’t sign up as a volunteer (very personal reasons for that) but I did what I could with the means I had. Nothing compared to your efforts obviously. Yes, I wish I had been able to do more and hope to be more active now, but calling people freeloaders is quite a negative way to describe people who are on your side. Thank-you for getting us this far, we newbies will be looking for guidance from you as to how to campaign and get the word out. Please don’t discriminate. I have every respect for you.
As a final note, my previous post was meant to be tongue-in-cheek as it seemed things were getting heavy and I thought a silly post about a minor point might lighten things. Apologies for interrupting.
Wee Alex
So Heriot Watt have decided they have the technology to extract more oil than we could before last Thursday. I’m sure they were up all night and managed to make the discovery at 6am.
Wish i used HW for all my learning needs so i could boycott them as well.
What are we up against here … FFS!
WON’T SOMEONE MAKE IT STOP. JESUS WEPT.
Actually I was wondering if Stu in the end managed to keep aside enough of the crowdfunding cash to tide him and the site over till January, as was his originally stated intention.
Looks like McColm has that covered for us.
By the way, a way of targetting care homes might be from those who know the people who work there, gently enlisting them to YES.
More bad news emerging, Fracking to begin, geology testing going ahead now in West Lothian, and near to Glasgow.
This was another one of my “things” for voting Yes. Westminster had snuck back control from Holyrood, but if we had become Indy….
I feel that in less than a week, all the things I thought we would be delivered from, are just all crawling out of the woodwork 🙁
On a brighter note, Sandra White in Holyrood today told Labour to hang their heads in shame at the fear tactics, which she outlined and everyone knows about. She said this was not a fair referendum, and she asked why had the media not covered so much of what everyone knew.
Interesting read here so far.
I think our Yes faults were minimal. One thing, was the grey vote – we didn’t really do enough to persaude them or attract them there were everthing from Asians for Yes to Otters for Yes, yet no Pensionsers for Yes?
Again, I don’t know much it would have done though – as I’ve heard of hand from friends of their OAP relatives saying “Aye” to them, but going in the booth and ticking No.
Now though – we have a lot to be excited about.
These new powers will not come to anything. All these proposals are old setbacks of what they never (Union parties) promoted in the past.
SNP under Nicola will agree to the basics, but we can fight for more and I think we (I joined them on Friday) should go in on a ticket of Devo Max in 2015 election. The Yes Alliance reformed can help us win seats in Glasgow/west coast ex Labour areas – plus the SNP heartlands – to get a good number of MPs and we fight on that ticket demanding as Gordon Brown said” as close to Federalism as can be”.
It’s win win for Yes after the defeat.
Look at Women for Indy, Radical Indy, the SNP/Green and SSPs members – all through the roof.
The Alliance would work also because in Westminister – we fight under a Devo Max/Indy alliance whilst for Holyrood we could all stand our own tickets as SNP, Greens, SSP – I bet you we could end up seeing over a 100 pro-Indy MSPs in 2016.
The genie is certainly out and it’s no going back in.
Just need a wee bity of patience, planning and most of all, team work from all the Yes movements. We put away petty issues that we don’t agree as parties/movements when forming the Alliance just like we did for the Yes campaign.
And work together.
I think judging by the spring in Salmond, Nicola and the SNP members I’ve seen and heard in the media.
That we may something similarish to this.
Who kens though.
Love to you all, and keep your heads up!
If you asked me a week tonight before the vote, if it was a No wuld I see Independence? I probably would have been done with Scotland/politics, but nah, I’m just get started.
And so are the
7000 new Greens
3000 new SSP members
and
35000 SNP members
Let’s go again, folks.
I’ve just seen Nicola changed her facebook pic on the 19th to OneScotland. That was one of my suggested names for a Yes Movement going forward rather than solely a SNP one. Wouldn’t it be good if SNP take initial lead to keep the movement going forward. Citizen Smart has been blogging hard on this idea. I agree but I know others say get all behind SNP. Will be interesting what comes out their conference in November.
link to facebook.com
Hey, nothing wrong wi the Hairy Twatt.
What makes you think there weren’t those who work in care homes keeping an eye on things – I was.
Hullo everybody!
This is my first ever comment on WoS.
Ive been abit shy to reveal masil but lve been like a spacehopper filled way explosives ever since the heartbreaking result.
Ive loved reading the wonderful comments on here and they certainly added to the frenzied build up to the referendum.
The sight of the Dougie ‘English bull terrrier lookalike’ Alexander proudly singing Jerusalem at the Labour Conference today was the last straw!!
I couldnt silence ma mooth any longer.
I thought Davie ‘belly ulcer’ Camerons conversation way the New York mayor was insult enough but l shouldve known better that the BT circus can ay pull anither blinder oot the poke!!
If was very late in the campaign before our mole with the entree to the sheltered housing complex came forward. We saw a WFI sticker on a car and one of our SNP activists sleuthed out who she was, and she turned into a great asset. But I wish we’d known about her six months ago.
@yesindyref2 – enlist care workers.
Yes, that and as many nurses/NHS staff as possible.
I’m in a pretty big No/Tory area and I’ve made a note of the few brave souls who put up yes windows stickers in the last day or so. Personally going to go round and ask them if they will get involved as they will have lots of No friends who need someone they know to start working them over to Yes. As soon as SNP conference is over and lie o f land is clearer then I’m hoping I’ll have some friendly neighbours who will be able to start getting out there again.
My replies in CAPS (apologies in advance)
Ealasaid says:
24 September, 2014 at 8:15 pm
Many thanks to Doug, Morag and many others that were following the ballots or at the counts for telling us how the system works. I never knew all that before. It was very enlightening.
HAVING NEVER BEEN TO ONE OF THESE IT WAS INDEED AN EYE OPENER.
I do not believe that 400,000+ votes were rigged. I believe that it was the BBC wot done it and that a UKIP MEP in Scotland was the dry run. It explains all the delight from the BBC staff at the win.
EXACTLY. ANY FIDDLING WAS DONE VIA THE MEDIA, NOT AT THE BALLOTS THEMSELVES.
However it is now time to move on. If we are to take Labour on directly in their own constituencies perhaps we can learn about the opposition around the ballot from some of the comments.
First up they were very well organised. Helping old folk to register and cast their votes. How did they know where all the old folk live (age/address and telephone number)? Can we also get their source of information and use it in a similar way.
YEARS OF CANVASSING IS ONE THING. TARGETTING OLD FOLKS HOMES IS ANOTHER.
Secondly, they went round to the doors of the old folk, posing as officials. Warning that they would be back to collect the pension book if there was a Yes vote. We really need to get round the old folk to counter any such blatant lies and reassure.
AN AGED POLULATION WHO RELY ON BBC/MSM FOR NEWS IS A TOUGH NUT TO CRACK.
Thirdly they are very tribal. Ignored other people at the polling station and went straight to their own representatives. Is there any way to break this down or infiltrate to let another point of view in?
I TAKE IT YOU MEAN THE VOTERS ARE TRIBAL? THERE ISN@T MUCH YOU CAN DO IN SUCH A SITUATION. BY THE TIME THEY ARE AT THE POLLING PLACE, THEIR MIND IS MADE UP.
Fourth, where do they get their support from? Are the Unions still involved to any extent? Should we approach Unions?
MY UNION IS THE RMT, WE ARE NOT AFFILIATED TO LABOUR. WHERE POSSIBLE WE NEED PRO INDEPENDENCE UNION MEMBERS WORKING FROM WITHIN THE UNIONS. WE SHOULD ALSO ADVOCATE THAT MEMBERS WITHDRAW FROM THE UNION POLITICAL FUND. OR INDEED, FIND ANOTHER UNION.
Fifth, as some are concerned about ballot boxes not being followed and there not being enough people to accompany them all, then more of us should volunteer and we would see the system for ourselves. Or we could get tracking devices in them all.
THE SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT IS THE ONE WHO SHOULD BE PUSHING ON THIS. TRANSPARENCY IS REQUIRED. VOTES SHOULD BE COUNTED AT THE POLLING PLACE, NOT AFTER TRANSIT. THE WHOLE POSTAL VOTING SYSTEM NEEDS OVERHAULED, AS THIS IS AN AREA THAT IS RIPE FOR FRAUD.
Just a few things to work on. We need to know the enemy in order to take them on effectively, and we need to start moving on now!
THERE ARE NUMEROUS OTHER THINGS THAT NEED ADDRESSED. I HAVE SUBMITTED A FREEDOM OF INFORMATION REQUEST REGARDING SOME OF THESE. ONE EXAMPLE IS THAT POLLING AGENTS ARE ALLOWED TO WORK AS COUNTING AGENTS! THAT SIMPLY SHOULD NOT HAPPEN.
CAPS LOCK OFF…
@Colin Mccartney says: 24 September, 2014 at 9:21:
“thanks Robert, you learn something every day – bonus points for being the first lol”
Believe me, Colin, I’d very much like to not need to use the system of Postal Ballots and, especially here in Fife, am charry of doing so. In fact I was checking several times a day as it was getting very near referendum day before I had confirmation they had my vote. Most of the time I could male it to the poll but I take unpredictable bad turns and only get abouit 30 Minutes warning they are about to start. Worse still they are, “Episodic”, meaning if I do have an attack it is the start of an episode of such attacks and that’s it until I’ve been free of attacks for at least a week.
It kind of ruins doing anything. The most annoying thing is I can often go months without an attack.
Graeme Doig
In fairness there were a couple of great reports from oil came out in the last week before the referendum, but not in time perhaps for the implications to sink in. Perhaps Ian Wood stirred up a few counter research projects which took time to complete.
After the shenanigans of the 2008 Glenrothes by election, and over 90 different postal vote fraud investigations after 2010 WM general election, you can’t blame folk for being suspicious of anything overseen by the Electoral Commission.
I agree with Chic. If anything happened at the count, it was miniscule. However I have real concerns about the postal vote. Labour have form with this, and seem to get better at covering their tracks with each election.
The Rev has more or less been away for a few days taking it easy, chatting to friends, thinking about new ideas and in general getting over the Ref.
He left Wings to get on with itself and I don’t think he’ll be very chuffed with what he’s seen today. To many of the regulars being bad tempered, short fuses, nerves plainly showing.
You were easy targets for the trolls. 🙁
Calgacus should stay as well.
I’m quite positive that the lack of positivity shown at times is positively unusual but is the inversely proprotional reaction to the positivity of the campaign that despite that, led to non-positive results and therefore a positively enormous outburst of non-positive reactions and counter-reactions.
Of that I’m quite positive.
It kind of saddens me hearing what was happening to pensioners.
It totally goes against the grain of what is instilled in us from childhood. That our grannies and di’s are special people and that we should respect them, listen to them, look out for them and protect them. Not threaten them.
I know that many may not have families near or any at all and it was these vulnerable ones that I feel were targeted.
For those in sheltered housing though. The carers or caretakers should have been advising them not to answer doors and if they did and felt in anyway threatened, they should press the emergency buzzers to get someone up to move the pests from their doors and be warned not to return.
I mean if anyone had come and threatened my dad, God bless is soul, I would have found them and smacked them in the face.
I’m just thankful that my elderly aunt has a large, extended supportive family around her, and that nearly every single one of us old enough to vote, said YES.
Next time we will have to be good neighbours and watch out for our elderly. Mind you next time I feel that they will be a lot more savvy and streetwise.
Yesindyref2
Cheers for perspective.
What a difference a week makes, last week Milliband claimed the Scots were being fed scare stories about the NHS, this week he says it needs saving!! Last week oil was going to run out in 10/15 years, new announcement today decades more oil forecast and finally last week no more wars, this week parliament being recalled to discuss……..GOING TO WAR!!
We knew the truth, but how easily have the not so clever been duped!!
Here’s something to cheer everyone up.
Our glorious new leader ready for business. I have this on the wall by my computer. Oh be still my trembling knees.
link to laetitiaguilbaud.org
Ananurhing – calm down dear.
Jeezo. WTF happened.
A big stooshie over something that is over and finished.
We all know that WM and the burrs are capable of a wee bit of gerrymandering but what I have seen going on here is what they want…internal bickering.
Complaining about the ballot rigging is a dead end. Look forward, not back and don’t give the scotbuts any label they can fix on us.
Hold your head up, grit your teeth and learn from any mistakes we made.
@liz g I made no mention of Morag fawin o her erse Morags a Lady , wee tip Morag dont try walking in Paula Roses Saltire heels.
@ Grendel
I was both a polling agent and a counting agent, although as it turned out there were plenty of the former and I spent all day helping in our shop and only went into the polling station to vote myself. Why should I not also have attended the count (in your view)?
Paula Rose
Yes dear, no dear, sorry dear. I’ll get my cereal.
Maybe this will get through: joined SNP, looking forward to Hope over Fear on 12th October, love you all, keep fighting. Hail Alba. 🙂
Aaaaargh!!!
Third time lucky? Joined SNP, love you all, see you on the 12th of October. 🙂
Yaaaay!
Why did Ruth Davidson have access to sample votes before 10pm on the 18th? And why was there two different types of ballot papers, some with a serial and writing and some blank?