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Wings Over Scotland

Organisation does job

Posted on October 13, 2013 by

This is the front page lead story from today’s Sunday Post:


There’s a curious line there. Can you spot it?

What Andrew Picken’s keen journalistic nose appears to have EXCLUSIVELY uncovered is that the Scottish government is doing what it was democratically elected to do – pursue the policies in its manifesto. We’re not sure that’s strictly “news”.

Because taxpayers fund everything that every government does. They’re (more or less) a government’s only source of revenue. Governments raise tax, then spend it on policies which – ideally – are the ones that appeared in their election manifesto.

We don’t think anyone could accuse the SNP of hiding their desire for independence. So it seems fair that if the Scottish electorate give the SNP an unprecedented landslide victory in an election, as they did in 2011, it’d be reasonable for them to expect to pursue that objective as a government, which would involve spending money.

If a government is publishing a white paper setting out its aims, it’s entitled to use whichever experts it wants to make its case, not just whoever was prepared to give them an opinion at the lowest price. We’re not aware of the UK government having put any of its numerous anti-independence reports out to tender, nor are we aware of the cost of said reports being public knowledge.

The Post’s story is simply the latest in a long line of attempts by the Scottish media to portray independence as some sort of illegitimate pursuit, an outrageous indulgence of vanity against the wishes and interests of the people rather than the core policy of the country’s biggest political party, backed by a clear democratic mandate.

We’ll have a little more on that shortly.



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    166 to “Organisation does job”

    1. annie says:

      Andrew Picken and Paul Hutcheon on twitter clearly so pleased about this anyone would think Alex Salmond was caught doing something really naughty – it amazes me how immature our so called political journalists are.

    2. I heard a rumour that the Westminster government is directly funding at least two full-time Better Together professional campaigners (both called Alistair, oddly)  without declaring the six figure equivalent contribution as a donation.

    3. bunter says:

      Think this rag used to hold some sort of readership world record, a long time ago. Is there still a market for yer grandpas crimplene troosers? Who can forget adverts for a big slipper! Anyway, its heading the right way, like the others, doon the pan.

    4. david says:

      i hope all these lying self interested hacks are held to account for all this crap.

    5. Andy-B says:

      Ive developed a real loathing of the Scottish media, over the past year or so, their biased, and inept attempts to derail the independence debate, really sticks in my craw.
      Just another poorly written smear, that youve reported Rev (Well Done), and theirs been many over the past eighteen months, their really is a sense of hatred, among the media for independence and Alex Salmond in particular.

    6. Edward says:

      Disappointed in Paul Hutcheon , actually thought he was a serious investigative journalist, evidently I was wrong

    7. Murray McCallum says:

      Westminster governments not doing what they said they would do has contributed to the unequal society we live in, expensive university education for most, illegal wars, and stagnating democracy.
      We don’t have a free press – we have a useless one.

    8. HandandShrimp says:

      Who exactly does this Muppet think funded Osborne and Hammond’s Oil and Defence brief documents?
      Does Picken think that the pixies are writing the white paper soon to be released?
      This story is as about as exclusive as TV schedules.

    9. muttley79 says:

      I stopped buying newspapers in Scotland years ago.  I also rarely watch BBC Scotland and STV, as I know they view the independence debate through the same prism as the British establishment.  I will only really watch the debates on TV now.  I am just so fed up with the blatant bias of the MSM in Scotland against independence.  We do not have a genuine Scottish media. 

    10. Macart says:

      Shock, horror – dogs chew bones, sky is blue, grass is green and government white paper/work is paid for by public funds.
      I’m failing to see the headline worthiness of this or am I missing something? Did the SG rob a bank or mug a cub scout for the funds?

    11. Cath says:

      To be fair, politicians doing what they said in their manifesto, or what’s best for the people in their county is an alien concept at Wesmtminster and within their pathetic media bubble.
      “Ive developed a real loathing of the Scottish media, over the past year or so”
      Yup, same here. And after yesterday’s “Scottish culture is propaganda” it’s beginning to develop into a genuine loathing of anyone even willing to associate themselves with Better Together. I’ve always promised myself this referendum won’t come between me and friends and I won’t lose any friend over this. As it moves to territory like this, a week after the “virus” comment, I can see that changing very quickly. Any friend that’s willing to have me and many of their other friends involved in Scottish culture talked about like that and not condemn it isn’t worth having. There’ll be a few pro-union friends I’ll be asking about both comments next time I see them.

    12. seoc says:

      Perhaps these ‘journalists’ could also ‘reveal’ the amount of our taxes Westminster spends on similar projects?

    13. Andy-B says:

      Yes you’re correct, I dont know how many times Ive shouted at the telly in a fit of rage, (I must not shout at telly with scalding hot soup on lap).
      The sheer gall of some of those so called news presenters and political spin doctors has pushed my blood pressure through the roof.

    14. Robert Kerr says:

      Steady on lads and lasses. Generating anger is the aim of all this. 
      Nevertheless the “journalists” should have the wit to realise they are on a personal lose-lose ticket.
      A Yes means they lost. A No means they shall be despised and it may become personal.
      Please do not go down the road trod by “Meibion Owain Glyndwr”. 
      Scotland deserves the best from us. 

    15. Helpmaboab says:

      “Secret”? Apparently not secret enough for a low-grade hack to discover. Salmond’s “Independence dream”? Please try harder Mr. Picken. This is entry-level unionist wordplay. Seventy-thousand pounds? That wouldn’t cover an MP’s annual salary.
      I can hear the sound of a barrel bottom being scraped.
      The only reason that anyone buys ‘The Sunday Post’ is for the cartoons and the standards of those are now woefully low.

    16. Linda's back says:

      How about some FOIs on how much the UK London Government has spent on producing papers on behalf of the NON Scotland campaign?

    17. wee mammy says:

      I don’t buy any newspapers at all anymore, all they print is mis- informed rubbish and lies. Are there any decent journos left, think not. They should well remember that the people they are treating with such distain are the very people who they depend on  to buy their newspapers and pay their wages, jacket on a shoogly nail springs to mind. As for the bbc and stv, I  never watch any of their news, pure drivel and more lies. 

    18. The Man in the Jar says:

      Another unionist “newshound” barking at the moon!
      @Bunter. dont forget “cut your hair with this thing!”

    19. wee jamie says:

       A widny worry about it effecting the out come of the referendum, maist of the readers are only interested in scone recipes ,knitting patterns,and whit kinda week francis Gaye has hud.

    20. gordoz says:

      Guys I suspect we are seeing the last hurrah of the Scottish media as we know it.

      If we take the case in point, as there is absolutely no Newspaper or regular day to day paper feature representaion of the YES side of the vote in the current situation (not one). One would have at least thought one business model would have been to hedge your bets and go for a YES vote editorial position to soak up the YES voters for the run up to the vote at least and who knows you could go on to be on the winning  side. 

      Even if not, they would still be representing the views of at least 40 -49% of the YES vote in a no situation (heaven forbid).

      Thats what gets me, I can honestly see a massive backlash either way with the MSM (and individual journos) and it is complete madness (but if they dont care, then I dont care).

      Take Robin Dunwoodie on GMS today, he welcomed the new online media but his main gripe was the overt partisan stances of the blogg sites; JESUS man pots & kettles, what the fxxk does the Hearald represent; complete impartiality ??????

      I think that was the point he was trying to make when he said the printed press were by far the more professional.

      Can see a major collapse of MSM in Scotland after vote either way and few will shed a tear in terms of their overall contribution. Cowards and knaves for the most part, culpable in holding Scotland back from rightful self determination.

      Rev no doubt you will have a  view on this.

      @ Linda’s back : Good Call !!

    21. Robin Ross says:

      A lot of truth in the old joke – “Scotland will be free when the last minister is strangled with the last copy of the Sunday Post”.

      Robbie Dinwoodie was commenting on Radio Scotland this morning on the volume of posts expressing a loathing of the MSM.  He suggested that many pollsters were perhaps too ready to believe everything they read in the on-line sources they favoured and made a distinction between professional journalism and amateurs on the net.

      He has a point of sorts, because we all like our point of view (or prejudices?) to be reinforced so we approve of the sources which support our leanings, and perhaps are too ready to gloss over or give the benefit of the doubt to ‘our’ side, but as Radio Scotland now makes reference to many of the internet sites which analyse the independence debate, the real issue is not that of professional versus amateur, but of accuracy and integrity.  In this respect the internet has become the Fifth Estate.

      WoS doesn’t need to bemoan the poverty of expression in the MSM – it simply needs to keep analysing the content and holding professional journalism to account.  It must be doing something right as I noticed a post the other day referring to ‘Whinge over Scotland’. Made me smile and think, ‘good for you Stu, you’re rattling the cage’.

    22. gillie says:

      Just another “accused” story by the shyte unionist media.

    23. bunter says:

      @The Man in the Jar
      Lol, think my father had one of those.
      Someone mentioned FOIs, a  favourite of SLab. Do these cost? Is this another tactic we at Wings can use for the embarrassment of the Unionists? Must be lots of awkward questions we could ask…..

    24. gillie says:

      We should list the common words used by the shyte unionist media in their dire attempts to disparage the pro-independence movement, the Scottish government, the SNP and Alex Salmond.
      1. Accused
      2. Secret
      3. Dishonest

    25. gordoz says:

      “How about some FOIs on how much the UK London Government has spent on producing papers on behalf of the NON Scotland campaign?”
      @ Bunter
      I think ‘Lindas back’ had a good point with the above;  any milage ??
      (Barrage of Treasury papers etc ?)

    26. MochaChoca says:

      “we want the Scottish government to provide detailed and fully costed answers to every facet of independence, but the Scottish government better not dare spend any money in the process of providing this even though they were democratically elected to do so” FFS! 

    27. Shinty says:

      How about some FOIs on how much the UK London Government has spent on producing papers on behalf of the NON Scotland campaign?
      Good point and while we’re at it these Cabinet Papers on devolution which they continue to hide.

    28. kininvie says:

      @Robin Ross
      The internet has become the fifth estate
      And, I would argue, the internet is actually more accountable than the fourth estate. As all of us have no doubt experienced, post something factually wrong or put an apostrophe in the wrong place (Morag!), and someone is usually sure to point out, in public, the error of your ways. And if that error is important, or contentious, it will be spread around, very quickly. Effectively, the internet is accountable to its readers.
      In contrast, the MSM are accountable to no one. They can come out with glaring errors of fact, but no amount of wrath directed at them is likely to make on jot of difference. They just ignore it, unless there’s potential defamation involved, and even then they reckon they have more money than you do….

    29. MochaChoca says:

      Was it in either the Tories or the Limpdems manifesto to spend any UK taxpayers money on generating multiple anti-independence reports?

    30. James Morton says:

      £70,000? might pay for what 1 advisor? seems like a good deal.

    31. BeamMeUpScotty says:

      The London parties and their press are not too familiar with democracy and are determined that Scotland will not be allowed to have any of it.

    32. HandandShrimp says:

      FOIs cost if there is any work associated with gathering the information. If it is something that can be easily calculated or the information already exists then they provide it free. They will tell you if there is going to be a charge.  Identifying the documents produced and asking how much they cost in terms of civil service or consultancy hours is a fair ask. The TPA ask that stuff all the time and they are quite aggressive in following up if they think departments are dilly dallying.

    33. Murray McCallum says:

      Would be great if a journalist could find out what Scottish New Labour actually believe in.
      The internationalist, non-geographers that like to label people as “foreigners”. The socialists that appear to include the poor and vulnerable within what they call a “something for nothing culture”.
      As well as the SG doing what they said they would do, the main opposition needs to sort out what exactly the alternative is? When are they going to get over themselves?

    34. gordoz says:

      Rev : O/T (If this has been covered by others apologies)
      Hope this is ok re recent posting of ‘The Fear Factor’.
      Rough Justice Films are fundraising for next feature and a series in run up to referendum – full info in link below

    35. Marian says:

      The Project Fear mob and their media acolytes will be the biggest losers after 18 September 2014, whether or not the vote is YES or NO, for they will be so completely despised by the people of Scotland for lying to them whatever the outcome.

      If the vote is NO then it won’t be very long before Westminster takes it’s vengeance on Scotland and every Scot will feel it, whether it is the return of prescription charges, or soaring council tax bills, or £9,000 plus student tuition fees, or the end of free personal care for the elderly.

      If the vote is YES there will no hiding place for the Project Fear mob and their media chums who tried to cheat us out of independence.

      So the end is nigh for these people whatever the outcome.

    36. beachthistle says:

      @Murray McCallum
      ‘Would be great if a journalist could find out what Scottish New Labour actually believe in.”
      Aye, and find put and report on  Labour for Dependence’s governance structure, its decision-making processes, funding streams and membership numbers.
      (‘Trad/Old’ Labour: Red flag
      ‘New’ Labour: Red rose
      ‘Scottish’ Labour: Red coat?)

    37. John H. says:

      Robbie Dinwoodie also stated on the BBC programme this morning that Scotland would inherit 9% of Britain’s debt. It completely slipped his mind to tell listeners that we would also get 9% of Britain’s assets.

    38. Dorothy Devine says:

      I can no longer access circulation figures for any newspaper my greatest wish is to know they are dying a slow and painful death ,perhaps then a rebirth of an honest media would be possible.
      I had great hopes for Mr Hutcheon at one time but it seems they were misplaced.

    39. gordoz says:

      beahthistle says:
      (‘Trad/Old’ Labour: Red flag ‘New’ Labour: Red rose ‘Scottish’ Labour: Red coat?)
      Now that is good !!!

    40. molly says:

      Been working, so did I miss the big debate in the papers about Prestwick Airport? The one where Port Glasgow ,Greenock ,Gourock could be reinvigorated for imports ,while Prestwick could bring in freight with road infrastructure improved to get it all moving? Did I miss all the local politicians putting forward their vision for their constituents? 

      All I’ve seen is Alex Salmond asks experts for advice and as is the norm , they get paid.

      I’d much rather read that than someone saying ‘if you don’t print this drivel, we will withdraw our support,shout at your Editor and force you to buy the next round at our private lunch ‘.Now that would be a story.

      The Scottish Newspaper Industry – keeping cats happy this winter.

    41. BuckieBraes says:

      If the vote is YES there will no hiding place for the Project Fear mob and their media chums who tried to cheat us out of independence.
      Maybe I’ve said it before, but these people are such shameless time-servers they will have no qualms, the day after a Yes vote, about splashing headlines like ‘SCOTLAND SAYS YES!’ and ‘SCOTLAND’S NEW DAWN’ all over their front pages – as if to say, ‘We really believed in this all along – honest!’

    42. liz says:

      @molly – good point about Inverclyde.
      You should read some of the comments in the MSM – archived of course- about the privatisation of Prestwick being a ‘millstone’, the soon to depart Kay(e) asking the listeners how they feel about their taxes being used to prop up Prestwick etc, etc.
      These people are frightened of their own shadow and if they had their way we would still be living in caves too feart to leave incase we got attacked by a saber -toothed tiger

    43. Dcanmore says:

      Ah the good old Sunday Post… circulation 700,000 (1999) down to 165,000 (Jul 2013). Yes, it once held a record BI (before internet).
      I doubt there will be a single newspaper ready to back YES during the referendum campaign. Because of tanking circulation figures all the editorial rooms will be in a state of fear, journalists wondering when it will be their turn for the chop. They all know the writing is on the wall and all they are trying to do (and failing) is giving themselves a stay of execution. This is the final decade of a meaningful printed press. One or two will survive in Scotland but not much more. I’m sure not one masthead will be the title that plumps for YES as the country votes NO… that will single them out for special treatment and will probably haste their demise. Collectively if they all stay NO then after the YES vote such failed backing will soon be forgotten as all the newspapers will suddenly fill their columns about a bright future for Scotland, and hopefully they think all will be forgotten as they fly the saltire to up the circulation figures.

    44. beachthistle says:

      Thanks @gordoz
      Saw ‘red coats‘ being used to describe Labour for Dependence activists in Dunfermline by G.M. on twitter today. As soon as I submitted my last post for some reason I suddenly thought of ‘pink jaikits’

    45. Marian says:

      Ref BuckieBraes says:
      13 October, 2013 at 6:32 pm

      If the vote is YES there will no hiding place for the Project Fear mob and their media chums who tried to cheat us out of independence. Maybe I’ve said it before, but these people are such shameless time-servers they will have no qualms, the day after a Yes vote, about splashing headlines like ‘SCOTLAND SAYS YES!’ and ‘SCOTLAND’S NEW DAWN’ all over their front pages – as if to say, ‘We really believed in this all along – honest!’
      Marian replies:
      Project Fear and their media chums have adopted a “scorched earth policy” from day 1, and so there is no going back or place to hide for them.
      Whatever the result of the referendum is they are damned to obscurity forever because of their constant lying to the people of Scotland.

    46. Albert Herring says:

      £70,000 does seem rather a lot for something written on the back of a fag packet.

    47. Bill C says:

      Just another example of the Scottish democratic process being undermined by Scottish journalists. The whole referendum debate is being skewed in favour of the union.  It is reminiscent of how the Nazis used the press to rise to power in the 1930’s.

    48. Brian Powell says:

      The majority of readers of internet media and blogs get information from more than one, so the idea that we are too ready to beleive that source is wrong . Newspaper readers in neartly all cases read one paper.
      The  comments on on internet media have a high content of analysis. This sIte particulary. The Herald comment page has a high info content.
      The variety/range of writers is many times that of the  mainstream. Especially Independence issues.

    49. STARLAW says:

      Heard Robin Dinwoodie on BBC this morning, mentioned several online YES sites then told his listeners not to pay heed to these sites, just listen to the professional journalists. A pat on the heid and go oot and play son , you’ll be aw right

    50. Macart says:

      The media have made their choice. They choose to support the current system, they are the orthodox view and mouthpiece of the UK. It doesn’t matter that they have lied or misled in support of their political views. They see themselves not as the arbiters of news or journalistic ethics. I’d have thought Leveson made that one clear enough. They have their own self interest at heart and the continuance of the status quo. They see themselves as the voice of the UK view and no amount of anger or even reasoned plea for a fair deal will sway that.
      We look to our own lines of communication and critique. Which is almost certainly as single minded as theirs but with the added ingredient of actually offering something. A differing view from the establishment, a differing view of Scotland that doesn’t require enormous amounts of anti depression medication and more than just a smattering of truth in our case. 😉
      As others have noted, whatever the result, no one in Scotland will ever look at our media in the same way again. I’m certainly going to make damn sure my kids learn the lesson of research, varied sources and independent thought. I would trust a daily journo about as far as I could chuck a JCB.

    51. southernscot says:

      @Macart shouldn’t that be JMB.
      Sorry cheap shot:)

    52. Macart says:

      I’ll stick with JCB. 😉

    53. AlexMontrose says:

      Lots of companies paid big bucks for work and advice on the privitisation of Royal Mail, despite FOI requests, figures as yet, have not been released.

    54. megsmaw06 says:

      I’m seriously concerned about my eyeballs with the amount of eyerolling they’re doing every day. They might be in a jar by next year.

    55. rabb says:

      Still amazes me that Scottish journalists can play so fast and loose with democracy with apparent impunity.
      Scotland will vote yes next year, I’m now convinced of that. Surely their needs to be a national discussion about these rogues? I am absolutely in favour of a free and open press however, it must not be allowed to interfere with democracy?

      The press should be their to bring us the news & facts not poison people’s minds with political spin and editorial opinion. It’s the reason I stopped buying papers.

      Give me the facts and I’ll make my own mind up thanks.

    56. JLT says:

      Mate, you’re not the only one. I have no faith in any of them anymore. Like many others, I hope there is a day of reckoning for our media.
      God knows how many folk are working in the media, and are sickened to the core on a daily basis, at what they must see, is a betrayal to their nation.

    57. David Smith says:

      I did a secret deal with Sainsburys today. There was nobody else in the store at the time. I picked up a pair of nice cod fillets and passed them to the assistant who stuck them in a bag. I slipped her a fiver (cash). I wanted to improve the dinner I had planned and what’s worse I did it on purpose. Plaster that over yer front page, Picken!

    58. muttley79 says:

      @wee mammy
      Are there any decent journos left, think not.
      The thing is there are a number of good journalists in Scotland (some are very good), in both the print and broadcasting media.  There is Ian Bell, Iain McWhirter, Lesley Riddoch, Joyce McMillan, Gerry Hassan, Isobel Fraser, David Millar, Derek Bateman has just retired, Bernard Ponsonby (although saying the last debate between Sarwar and Sturgeon was a draw was absolute nonsense).  It appears that it is the editorial line that is the major problem.    
      @John H.
      Robbie Dinwoodie also stated on the BBC programme this morning that Scotland would inherit 9% of Britain’s debt. It completely slipped his mind to tell listeners that we would also get 9% of Britain’s assets.
      Yes, this is a standard Unionist tactic.  They talk about the debt, but conventiently leave out the bit about the assets.  Just another example of how admissions by the MSM can be important in the independence debate.  I am disappointed that Robbie Dinwoodie has done that in this case.  He is usually a decent journalist.

    59. Edward says:

      Slightly O/T – Interesting revelation over on Newsnet. They have an article exposing the CWU union issuing members in Scotland a briefing note on independence for discussion. But its basically a Better Together diatribe against independence with absolutely no balance what so ever. The Scottish branch of CWU Scotland No. 2 are angry at this dictat from London. It should be noted that CWU Scotland No2 voted to support YES Scotland, back in March this year.
      There are meetings organised for Dundee (21st Oct), Edinburgh (22nd Oct), Glasgow (23rd Oct), Dumfries (28th Oct), Aberdeen (30th Oct) & Inverness (31st Oct). Independence is to be discussed by CWU members – should be interesting , wonder if any will be recorded

    60. Stuart Black says:

      Mr Dinwoodie works for a title that has a strict moderation policy for its online comments, with the exception of that lunatic from Woking of course.
      One of the planks, and in fact the main one, of this policy is that no criticism, whatsoever, can be made of the Herald’s journalists. This includes criticising the facts of the story as that implies criticism of the journalist.
      Any journalist who is unwilling to accept constructive criticism is unworthy of the name. An entire newspaper that does this, well, we used to laugh at the controlled press in the old communist countries, little did we know, eh?
      Having said that, Ian Bell was on fire today, he and a few others (McWhirter, Taylor, Shields, MacNeill) are the only reason I ever visit the blatt.
      Marky boy’s a bit of a favourite too. 😉

    61. BeamMeUpScotty says:

      The problem with the Scottish press is with the people who own it.
      They decide who to appoint as editors and what the policy will be.
      Everyone else is just doing the job they are paid to do.
      So go after the organ grinders and not the monkeys.

    62. david says:

      Marian replies:Project Fear and their media chums have adopted a “scorched earth policy” from day 1, and so there is no going back or place to hide for them.Whatever the result of the referendum is they are damned to obscurity forever because of their constant lying to the people of Scotland.

      100% agree

    63. Robert Kerr says:

      I disagree. A Journalist should have integrity. Your approach exonerates them. 
      Identical to Nurenberg War Crimes excuses. “I was only following orders”
      The Author puts his name to the piece. It is his piece and is published as such.
      Shame on them.

    64. muttley79 says:

      O/T  Just 10 days left for the Common Weal Appeal.  It is at just over £11,000, but the target is £25,000:

    65. mr thms says:

      I’m sure it was in Wings Over Scotland, that I read a post that mentioned Lord Foulkes’s habit of referring to the Scottish Government as the Scottish Executive?

      The Scottish Executive was renamed the Scottish Government in the Scotland Act 2012.
      Not only was it renamed, it applies retrospectively from 1998!

      Perhaps someone can let him know? 😉 

    66. Ken Johnston says:

      Re Robbie Dinwoody,
      Last Wed. STV newsnight had a couple of defence ‘experts’ on on the SDF or rather how there widnae be wan.

      Francis Tusa in Londinium basically said we would struggle, and by the way, the Irish forces are shite.

      Our man at Glasgow Uni, Scottish Centre for war studies, Dr. Phillips O’Brien, who you will probably have seen, said we would have no kit  so whit wid we dae, eh. Never taken up on by interviewer, of course.

      I emailed him next day to point out that academics should see things from all sides and what about the share of the hardware we have paid for.

      Gave him several websites on defence, including, natch, this one.  Who knows, I might get an answer. He comes across as an bit of an oddball to me.

    67. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      I must make the point again.

      The Sunday Herald is NOT like the rest of the Scottish Press. It is terrific today (again) with Macwhirter, Bell, Taylor on fire and Hammond’s defence nonsense dissected and thrown in the bin (and a really marvelous letter from Ruth Marr).

      Rob Dinwoody is on our side as well most of the time (or perhaps as often as he is allowed to be).

    68. Andy-B says:

      @Cath, @JLT
      Yip I know what you mean.
      Whenever, I speak to someone who smugly says, Im voting for the union, a tight knot rises in my stomach and the word Judas pops into my head.
      I guess its because, I realise the consequences of a no vote, and what it will mean for Scotlands children in the long term.
      Or maybe Im just to highly strung, or the unionist propaganda machine is driving me over the!

    69. Ken Johnston says:

      O/T Rev. Apologies.
      Anybody following the power flow in the National Grid. For which, I see from SSE, we pay 25% of our bill for. 25% for transmission alone!

      Anyway, I’ve been watching for quite a few days now, at various times, and there is a constant feed, from us to NI, But also a constant feed from Scot. to the south, from France and the Netherlands as well. Just now it’s low at 2500 mw. I think England’s power generation shortages are here already.

    70. Macart says:

      Dave McEwan Hill
      I’d certainly agree that the Sunday Herald is the most open minded of current titles. Bell and McWhirter are a must read on a Sunday whether you agree with their view on the day or not. The stand out writers in the country right now.

      *After the Rev of course. 😉

      Rustles through new bag of choccy raisins.

    71. HandandShrimp says:

      I think that is fair comment. Dinwoody accepted that sites like Newsnet and Bella (and ourselves of course) are here to stay and are an integral part of the news scene. He was a little “we MSM get a serious shoeing in the comments section” but somebody texted in and said Rob was OK and there were a few chuckles.  I think it is important that we hold a torch to the feet of the MSM, particularly the BBC, but we should do so without sounding like we also believe the Queen is a shape shifting alien. The MSM, or rather those that lead or own the MSM are hand in glove with Unionist movers and shakers. Individual journalists represent a broader spectrum than that. Better Together do not trust a number of the journalists which is why they lean on Boothman and others.
      The MSM is a touch nut but it has fractures and it is not an unassailable monolith.

    72. Oneironaut says:

      Out of curiosity…  Are there ANY newspapers or media outlets that aren’t selling themselves and their journalistic principles out to the No campaign like a bunch of cheap hookers?
      (Apologies to any cheap hookers reading this who might be offended by the comparison!)

    73. Macart says:

      There are one or two bods beside myself in the press and print industry who are regular visitors to this site who are extremely pro indy.

    74. david says:

      apology accepted, no offence taken

    75. JLT says:

      Just read that on Newsnet Scotland. It’s becoming blindingly obvious that the Union HQ’s in London have absolutely no clue as to what is really happening in Scotland!

      We only have to look at the video from the Clydebank TUC to see that. Sarwar and the other Labour boy were eaten alive by their union members. What the Union HQ’s are forgetting here, is that there are thousands upon thousands of workers in Scotland who are union members, but those members are also Nationalist.
      I for one, am one of them!
      If Unite were to say to me, that we advise you to vote ‘no’, then they’ll be told politely and with good nature, to forget it!

      But the good news appears to be, that the Unions in Scotland might be ready to say the same thing to the London HQ’s. A split appears to exist on how they see things between the main Unions of Scotland and England.

      The more bitter this gets (and it will), I can potentially see the Unions in Scotland, finally telling the London HQ’s to ‘bugger off’ if they are told to vote ‘No’. The workers in Scotland are making it clear, as they did at the Clydebank TUC, that Labour policy no longer holds sway in Scotland. 

      If a major split does happen, then we have a game changer. And remember …if the Tories are quite content to lose Scotland, then they really will aggravate the Scots any way possible. Push the Scots so that they finally snap in anger. This might lead to a split in the unions, which will break them in two; possibly forever.

      And as for Labour, they may realise only at the very end, that they have walked into a trap of their own making; by demanding that the Scottish Unions, as well as the Scottish workers, should accept Tory policies as well as a neo-con liberal banking system that is alienating Scotland each day …just so they can keep the Union intact.
      Something has to give…

    76. theycan'tbeserious says:

      If the people of Scotland are sovereign then lying to them is surely a crime as it would be if I lied to the police, the government or judiciary and I’m sure I would be fined or punished to the full extent of the law?
      Do I have a point or am I just talking bollocks? 

    77. Macart says:

      The problem in terms of dead tree is that the big title dailies and their ‘elite’ (sniggers) journos are almost to a man and title pro UK. Its just the way it is. God if they have no ethics about phone hacking, bribery of officials, long lens syndrome, making and breaking of celecrities… etc. Does anyone seriously think they’ll have a problem colouring their commentary on something which threatens their particular status quo. Trust me they won’t be losing sleep anytime soon.
      How and ever the local titles, the weeklies, quarterlies, news sheets and periodicals are by and large free from the Leveson taint and tend to be more honest in their editorial. Some pro indy some pro union but by and large balance is more apparent across the board.

    78. Brian Powell says:

      I can see why Dinwoodie was saying only believe the “professional journalists”; three times I put a corrected version of a poll they’d used which excluded essential information. The correction which, changed the conclusions, came from analysis on this site and another.
        The Herald deleted it each time, though I didn’t  name specific sites.

    79. End of daze says:

      That’s it then. Need to find some other pile of dead trees to hold up my bed!

    80. southernscot says:

      I wonder if the press feel they are pandering to their perceived large poll lead (the majority) of the no campaign, if the polls changed to a Yes lead would  they still be so shrill to the pro-independence movement.

    81. david says:

      bookies are part of project fear also. i took advantage of the scary long odds and put a bet on yesterday, pick up my winnings 19 sept next year.

    82. “If you don’t read the newspaper, you’re uninformed. If you read the newspaper, you’re mis-informed.”
      – Mark Twain

      The unionists don’t have to convince people to do anything new, they just need things to carry on as they are. Is it any surprise that as soon as people are engaged in the debates they are more likely to switch from a no to a don’t know or from a don’t know to a yes. Mark Twain didn’t have the internet, thankfully we do.

    83. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      The press know as well as we all do that the the polls are very far from reliable or accurate but they are having the effect of deceiving the metropolitan media who are all at sea in a Scottish sense. 
      Reminds me of the run up to the 2011 election when the same circumstances produced a vicious political circle. Lab/Tory/Libdem spin in Scotland, which suggested a Labour victory on no real evidence, was swallowed whole and the unionists/media coalition started believing its own spin. This was exacerbated by some strikingly astray polls (YouGov being the worst) and we were being told Iain Gray was to be our next First Minister until about a fortnight before Labour got trounced. (They only have 13 FPTP seats in the Scottish Parliament and they didn’t put their big guns on the lists because they thought they were all safe)
      Metropolitan media is again being deceived and becoming complacent. Suits us fine. Internal YES and SNP polling tells a very different story   

    84. gillie says:

      “I believe in equality for everyone, except reporters and photographers.” Mahatma Gandhi
      Even Gandhi thought journalists were scum of the earth. There must be special place in Hell for the Scottish news media, probably the West Highland Free Press.

    85. HenBroon says:

      JLT You would think would you not that Lord Robertson would be regarded as one of the unionists “big hitters.” Having watched the video on You Tube of his effort in front of young students at Abertay Univeristy, the very people both sides need to get motivated and interested. Where he managed to swing an audience from pro Union to pro Independence is just incredible. (I can’t remember the figures but the swing was huge.) He stood up and lied his face of, mind if I had a face that looked like a donkeys arse on a frosty morning, I would want it to fuck of. But to stand in front of young intelligent students and feel you need to lie, sends a very powerful message out. The unionists have nothing to offer and are shit scared. Quite apart from which Robertson is a total idiot and really earns all the insults that should be flung at him. It is his brand of patronising dishonest clap tap that has made them a laughing stock.

    86. Oneironaut says:

      “bookies are part of project fear also. i took advantage of the scary long odds and put a bet on yesterday, pick up my winnings 19 sept next year.”
      Now I’m so tempted, hehe 🙂
      My luck isn’t that good though.  I’d hate to jinx the vote!

    87. AnneDon says:

      The problem with the national media is that they support the status quo, which is right wing and unionist.  You see it in the hard time lefties, anti-nuclear campaigners, environmentalists, etc, have received over the years.
      And, since we now live in such an unequal society, all the paths to influence in the media and politics are held by the same upper-middle class types, who can afford private school and unpaid internships, and share the same values.
      Now with indy – the biggest threat the establishment have faced in 50 years – they are going batshit crazy. Scottish independence is a real threat to the Westminster system and its acolytes react accordingly. They are afraid. That is good.  Let us just be glad that the internet exists!

    88. Training Day says:


      What is the internal Yes/SNP polling saying? Genuine question.

      As for Picken, good to see he’s found a new home after drifting away from the Fascist-supporting Daily Mail.

      Oh, and best laugh of the weekend – the idea that Hutcheon was a serious journalist. Belter!

    89. david says:

      if anyone does fancy winning some dosh on the referendum, the only bookmakers i found to take the bet was william hills

    90. Henry Sloan says:

      You raise another very good question. Just how much is Westminster spending on its anti-independence ‘expertise’?  And don’t forget we pay a portion of that.

    91. rabb says:

      Apologies OT
      Been threatening to cancel my union membership for months now. Just found this article on their website. Is this a balanced piece or just a Union lackey pushing the project fear line to my fellow Scottish members?
      Cancelling tomorrow for good. I’ll take my chances on my own now thanks.

    92. ianbrotherhood says:

      Seriously mister, maybe hold-off just a wee bit, eh?
      I’m not in a Union, but I know good people who are (inside the SSP) and they’re telling me that things are shifting fast – please don’t jeopardise whatever benefits and entitlements you’ve accrued. It’s early days.
      Just saying.

    93. rabb says:

      It’s a struggle to justify it Ian.

      They’re also backing a “fairer minimum wage”. FFS they should be pushing at the very least for a living wage!
      Not representative of my views in the slightest mate.

    94. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Internal polling is showing a steady movement towards YES. We might get some public indication of this soon but the brains are happy to let the complacency continue meantime.

    95. kininvie says:

      It’s easy to forget that the people who matter to the print media are not the readers, but the advertisers. Journalists (most of them) are hacks, and will produce copy to fit whatever the editorial line of the day happens to be – so anger in their direction is a waste of breath.
      It’s better to target the advertisers – let them know what you don’t like about the paper they are associated with, why you will no longer be reading it, why you won’t be seeing their advertisment in future.  Suggest they ask the paper’s sales manager why their readership is dwindling…etc etc.

    96. Morag says:

      or put an apostrophe in the wrong place (Morag!)
      You know, I’m getting slightly tired of this.  See if you can find an example of me taking someone to task for a misplaced apostrophe (other than RevStu, that is, with tongue firmly in cheek).  Hint – you won’t find one.  See if you can find an example of me criticising someone’s grammar.  You’ll have a long search.  See if you can find an example of me correcting someone’s spelling.
      Once or twice, over hundreds of posts on hundreds of articles, I have commented on repeated misuse of particular homonyms by multiple posters – “free reign” being erroneously used for “free rein” is the only one I remember.  That seems to have given rise to a constant barrage of posts against me as a perpetual grammar nazi.
      I thought it was all in good part.  After all, Stu himself is the ultimate grammar Nazi around here, and nobody gets angry when he does it.  I didn’t mind the ribbing at first.
      Now, though, I have been subjected to quite vitriolic abuse by some posters here, who seem to want to drive me away completely.  This “Morag is a nasty schoolteacher who will give you the belt if you make a typo” is turning into part of that.  So, gonnae gie it a rest?

    97. Training Day says:

      Cheers Dave – if this is happening then fair enough to let further complacency breed in the MSM.

      But there comes a point when people out there who are swithering/clueless need to know that they are not a vanishingly rare minority in entertaining thoughts of Yes. I trust that point will come soon.

    98. ianbrotherhood says:

      I totally understand what you’re saying, and agree.
      But will you seriously chuck your membership because of one press-release? I don’t know if that’s your own Union, or, if it is, how long you’ve been a member. I’m just urging caution.
      None of us know what’s happening behind the scenes, the personal circumstances of those issuing such statements – how much of it is pure bluff?
      All I’m saying mister – please don’t be swayed by these gobshites, whether they profess to be on ‘your’ side or not. The whole thing is upside-down – they should be worried whether or not rabb’s on their side.
      Know what I mean?

    99. fordie says:

      Yes, just another lackey. Dropped them an email of complaint. I’d be more inclined to stay in the union and force change from within. You’ll know the best route to take.

    100. dee says:

      Cancelling tomorrow for good. I’ll take my chances on my own now thanks.
      HI Rabb. I cancelled my GMB membership last week. been with them since I was 16 but they were too pro-unionist/No campaign for me and so they had to go. It was very liberating and a huge weight off my shoulders. Will never a touch another UK based union.  Will wait until after Independence and see who emerges as a credible union who is not influenced by any London masters.

    101. kininvie says:

      Apologies. Was meant entirely tongue in cheek.  I welcome your comments and would absolutely hate you to feel otherwise!

    102. Training Day says:


      Cancelled my union membership because they wilfully would not distinguish between the Westminster government and Holyrood (and Holyrood’s inability to act upon reserved Westminster legislation).

      Can’t say I regret it.

    103. Lobeydosser says:

      Hi Morag. I always enjoy your posts and find them very informative. Please keep posting. I don’t post myself very much as I feel I’m not as articulate nor as witty as many of you, but value all the insights I get on Wings. 

    104. Morag says:

      Apologies. Was meant entirely tongue in cheek.  I welcome your comments and would absolutely hate you to feel otherwise!
      Thanks.  I know your tongue was in your cheek.  I was taking it in good part until recently, too.  However, I feel the hate from a couple of posters on here, and they’re using this as part of their campaign to demonise me.  It’s started to get to me quite a bit.

    105. Morag says:

      Hi Morag. I always enjoy your posts and find them very informative. Please keep posting. I don’t post myself very much as I feel I’m not as articulate nor as witty as many of you, but value all the insights I get on Wings.
      That’s sweet of you.  You should post more often yourself – I think you undervalue yourself.
      I don’t expect I’ll stop posting.  I’m too incorrigibly garrulous.  I keep meaning just to read the site and not say anything, but then I always seem to end up posting anyway.  Then sometimes I think, that wasn’t clever, someone is going to take that the wrong way and use it a a reason to attack you, do you never learn.
      Unfortunately I sometimes like to get stuck into an argument.  And unfortunately I seem to have put a couple of people’s backs up.  And unfortunately it seems to have turned quite nasty.  And unfortunately this caricature of “Morag the grammar Nazi” has been incorporated into the nastiness, too the point where even an innocent example is getting me quite upset.

    106. Ronnie says:

      Cancelled my membership in the 70’s. Pissed off at being dictated to by ‘shop stewards’ who knew F/A.
      Went my own way and never regretted it for one moment.
      Bit like how I feel about Scotland’s independence really.

    107. dee says:

      There must be hundreds of Unite union members (who are pro-independence) working at Grangemouth who feel they are getting misrepresented.
      You need to start asking questions like where do Unite stand on Independence?,  or how much does Johann Lamont get paid from them?.
      All trade union fees  actually go towards preventing Scotland from becoming an Independent nation.

    108. Bill C says:

      @Morag – We have crossed swords a couple of times on here and I’m not sure if we resolved much, but that is the beauty of our campaign i.e. debate and democracy.  I’m sorry to hear that you feel you have been the victim of abuse from a couple of posters on here, I for one would condemn such sentiment. Our struggle is about a self determining Scotland, none of us are bigger than that. Please ignore those who would score cheap points, this a very valuable on line form (courtesy of the Rev, who again I have disagreed with) and your contributions are as important and as sought after as any, your thoughts are important to our struggle, keep them coming.

    109. ianbrotherhood says:

      Having now seen comments from other folk who clearly know a lot more about it than I do, please disregard my input.
      In any event, cheers mister.

    110. dee says:

      Having now seen comments from other folk who clearly know a lot more about it than I do, please disregard my input.
      You are wrong to suggest that we ignore your comment.  The union debate has to happen, because there are thousands of union members all over Scotland and I would say a large portion of them are pro-independence. 
      The Unions have to come clean with their Scottish membership.  They are dragging the Independence question out for as long as they can, because they know the amount of members they will loose when the truth finally comes out about were they stand.

    111. rabb says:

      Thanks all for your comments. Ian, your input is valued mate 🙂
      Tomorrow I will be cancelling my membership as planned. I can’t continue supporting an organisation which now appears to be opposed to my own beliefs.
      I look forward to rejoining in an independent Scotland 🙂

    112. Doug Daniel says:

      The media and unionists (same thing?) are always slagging off the Scottish Government for not giving people enough information on independence. But then when they do just that, they get slagged off for “wasting” taxpayers’ money.
      Just because the media expects experts to work for free, it doesn’t mean everyone should.
      Interesting to note that £70,000 isn’t much more than we pay each MP in Westminster. I don’t think anyone on this site needs to be told which one presents the best value for money. Speaking of which, unionist politicians probably think £70,000 is too LOW, and are worried that this will push down the prices they can charge for their outside earnings. After all, who’s going to pay the extortionate amounts for failed politicians when you can get a Nobel laureate for £70,000?

    113. Daughter of Evil Reindeer says:

      Discussion on unions, McCluskey! Posted before I think but relevant to union issue!

    114. john king says:

      Morag says@ 11.20pm
      Morag I am horrified that you should feel this way I for one have used a little gentle ribbing towards you,
      from now on that will cease, 
      I see you (like it or not) as our conscience , that might unfair but we (all) need a little moderation at times and I (subconsciously ) look to you for guidance ,
       you make this site what it is and you deserve a huge amount of credit for that, 
      the rev commented recently that we should all watch the formatting as large blocks of text put people off reading what are extremely good commentators on this site and he (back me up on this rev) was alluding to YOU  amongst others,
      we have a year to go and we cant afford to start fraying at the edges,
       we need you more than ever Morag 
      I want you all to back me on this 
      lets stand together tighter than ever

    115. sneddon says:

      ‘FOIs cost if there is any work associated with gathering the information.’  H&S this needs clarification.  You will only get charged if the cost of getting the information takes more than 18 hours.  If it does you will either a exemption will be applied and no information will be released or you will be offerd the ‘opportunity’ to pay or narrow the scope of your request .  Public authorities can also offer the option of collecting the information up to the 18 hour limit.  Another instance where you might have to pay, is that you’ve requested a lot of information in hard copy/unusual format. (Although different rules apply if you are disabled) You may be charged for photocopying.  Each public authority decides individually at what amount the charge kicks in.  Tho’ I have to say in 7 years of being an FOI officer I never charged at any of the authorities I worked at.
      I imagine asking for the cost of the UK govt to provide information for these papers would have to be send to the various depts who contrbuted to the papers as seperate requests.  The key is the phrasing of the question.  It be best to ask, imho, how many hours were allocated to the task and then calculate the cost from the same scale used to calculate FOI costs.  

    116. JLT says:

      Seriously, hold fast. I’m a Union member, but no one from London HQ is telling me how to vote!
      Mate, watch the video ‘The voice of the People’ posted by the Rev a couple of days ago.
      That was a Union meeting in Clydeside (Red Clydeside) and the entire room exploded in anger at the Labour party. I don’t think I’ve ever seen Sarwar so shocked or out of his depth. The Unions in Scotland are being told by their Scottish members that Independence is the way forward, because Miliband is a sham, and it ain’t going to get better while in the UK.
      In that video, we had Union Chiefs, Labour activists, Labour Councillors and even Labour members. And in a fury, they denounced Sarwar and Labour, and cheered SNP / Yes policy. That was a whole room! Think about it!
      Rabb, you are less than a year away from possible Independence. Don’t quit. Seriously …stay your hand! Wait and see what happens the day after the referendum, and then make your choice. Right now, we need every voice we can in ALL of the Unions, to tell the Union Chiefs in both nations, that we are not standing for it. That video showed that.
      If I had to go to a Unite Union meeting today to discuss Independence, I would be shouting at any Labour MSP or activist and calling them charlatans. I think the Scottish Unions are going to tell their members to follow their hearts and vote ‘Yes’. I can’t see them following Miliband, who doesn’t have a clue.
      Seriously, hold fast, Rabb. Just go to work, and do that; work. Don’t quit. The Union needs you more than you think. We all do. We can only change the Union from the inside; we can’t from the outside. 

    117. dee says:

      Seriously, hold fast. I’m a Union member, but no one from London HQ is telling me how to vote!
      As I also mentioned above, I cancelled my GMB membership last week.  No one is saying the unions are telling you how to vote, that is your choice.  It is about where the union funds are going. As with all Scottish money, it heads down south to help fund the UK labour party.
      Which, in a round about way gets back to the Better Together campaign.  It also helps fund Labour MP’s and MSP’s (eg Johann Lamont) who are sponsored by trade unions.
      One thing is for sure,  NONE of your funds go towards the Yes campaign or any organisation that is linked to Scottish Independence.
      So, the longer you stay within that union, the more you are funding the unionists cause.

    118. HenBroon says:

      MORAG..The past the present and the future walked in to a bar. It was tense ;o)))
      Try and develop a thick skin. I try and avoid nipping at people for spelling and stuff, mostly because I have to use a spell checker, and I cannot spell grammar. Being pedantic is really not advisable as it will bite you.
      Having said that there are people on every forum that spend their entire lives just looking for stuff to be offended about. They really do get of when they manage to use the words racist or homophobic. It is their Hothersall moment.
      People chatting in a pub or club very rarely pick each other up on diction or grammar, because they would very soon end up embarrassed. There are also as you have found people who like to create angst and do so by attacking others for very spurious reasons. I have done it, sometimes you just say things because you are pissed of, or because the poster really bugs you.
      Just take a break if you feel bad. You can then come back refreshed and stronger when the feelings calm down. It’s only a forum.
      Lets eat Grannie.
      Lets eat, Grannie.
      Punctuation saves lives!

    119. Juteman says:

      Let’s 🙂

    120. eddie says:

      Talking of unions, I’m a member of the FBU and we no longer donate funds to Labour having told them to sling their hook back in 2004.  A shame that some unions can’t see through the charade that is the Labour Party.

    121. Macart says:

      @John King
      Goes without saying. I’ve never left here grumpy at anyone personally or in fact most forums. We’re all different people with different views and experiences, but we have one thing in common beyond any small difference.
      Group hug anyone?

    122. Robert Kerr says:

      The most important asset for YES is the outward looking, happy and humorous mien of us all. The March to the Hill was not a protest but a celebration. I enjoyed it! Everyone did!
      Let’s keep our sense of humour and we shall win.

    123. Juteman says:

      Group hug?
      Feck off, i’m Scottish!
      A firm handshake will suffice! 🙂

    124. Macart says:

      Not even a man hug?

    125. Boorach says:

      @ Eddie
      Just as a matter of interest, as you are two distinct services do you share a union with your coleagues South of the border?

    126. HandandShrimp says:

      Yes, I didn’t go into a huge amount of detail there, I was simply saying that costs can be charged but only for particularly onerous or weird FOIs. The fact that a request relating to a number of documents split between several departments (I’m not sure how many have been produced so far, Osborne must have clutch of them alone and Hammond two or three) will spread the burden. It is also likely that they will already know the resources they have committed although they might fight shy of telling us. The FOI rate will most likely be on the light side as I would imagine they have tasked some relatively senior prople to produce these documents using the OBR and others to provide input.
      It might be surprising just how much Tax Payers money has been spent. I’m surprised the TPA have not been onto that. They don’t usually usually hold back. That said they are a Tory Party front so they may not wish to rock the boat on this issue.
      There is no reason that Wings couldn’t raise a FOI request. It isn’t limited to individuals.

    127. Doug Daniel says:

      A firm handshake? What kind of Scots inhabit this site?
      A grunt and a slight nod of the head is more than enough.

    128. Seasick Dave says:

      Group hug?
      Did you hear about the Scotsman who loved his wife so much he almost told her?

    129. Gillie says:

      Cancelled my membership of the AUEW a long time ago to the angst of my then Labour supporting family. 
      I became a nationalist in my early teens and have voted SNP all my life, now going on 40+ years of marking an X on ballot papers.  Can anyone beat that? 
      I remember well the horror expressed by family, friends and work colleagues when I first voted SNP soon after my 18th birthday. They all thought I had gone loopy when I said in my defence you can’t trust Labour to deliver for Scotland. 
      Now practically everyone I know votes SNP.  How times have changed.

    130. Macart says:

      Must have been living away from home what did it. I picked up some strange and furren habits masel. Emotional sharing, that sort of thing. 🙂

    131. Patrick Roden says:

      Ok Morag, Guilty as charged, as I did mention you as someone who is guilty of this recently.
      It won’t happen again x

    132. Macart says:

      Oh I tell Mrs Macart how much I love her on a daily basis. 
      The amount of leeway that buys you when you want to sneak off for a days fishing or hog the laptop for an evening…
      Priceless. 😉

    133. Brian Powell says:

      A couple of bits of good news:
      “Ireland’s Taoiseach Enda Kenny has confirmed the country will leave the international bailout programme by December this year.”
      And Scotland’s economy continues to grow:
      Keep reading those internet sites folks. You won’t be seeing much on these items on the BBC or most print media, at least not without some disparaging, gloom, caveats!

    134. rabb says:

      JLT, Ian,
      You both make a persuasive case. I’ll grudgingly tough it out for now. I can’t say it’s easy continuing to fund an organisation that’s drifting more & more away from the reasons I joined in the first place.
      The relentless march to the right continues……………

    135. Morag says:

      I try and avoid nipping at people for spelling and stuff, mostly because I have to use a spell checker, and I cannot spell grammar. Being pedantic is really not advisable as it will bite you.
      Hen, read what I was saying.  I have seldom done anything LIKE that, and never done what you describe.  I make typos too, everybody does.  The pedant round here is RevStu, in case you didn’t notice.  I’ve gone along with it once or twice, and that’s about it.
      The “Morag the grammar Nazi” meme seemed kindly meant, at first, an amusing joke.  It just gets less than amusing when two or three posters who hate me personally decide to use that as part of their personal crusade to get me off the comments. 

    136. jake says:

      It gets worse. Not only is Alex Salmond using tax-payers money to further the policies of a democratically elected government, it is apparent that Johann Lamont is using tax payers money, the Scottish Parliaments equivalent of “Short Money”, to oppose both him and the will of the majority of the Scottish voting public. Can we please have a FOI request into the purposes for which this “Short Money” has been spent and whether or not it too has in all instances been put out to tender?

    137. The Flamster says:

      Went onto the Vote No page last night (for a laugh!).  They have the story of Anas being heckled and the English go home comment. They said it was an Independence debate. No footage or explanation of what it actually was – just highlighting the nationalist disgrace. No mention of it being TUC Union, or it being a mainly Labour audience with Labour Councillors. 
      Total manipulation  of the real story and of couse the Baaaaa Brigade are believing it. 

    138. HandandShrimp says:

      On Unions, I think mine is pretty neutral on the matter of independence although it did support a second question on the ballot paper to offer a federal option. It is not affiliated to a political party though so it doesn’t have that feedback loop of being tied to the Labour Party.
      I was tad disturbed to see that there allegations that Union officials colluded with the police and businesses in constructing the backlist for construction workers. If that turns out to be true I hope it is fully investigated, if not by the Unions themselves then by others in order to determine what went on and whether corruption oozed its way into the proceedings.  

    139. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “The “Morag the grammar Nazi” meme seemed kindly meant, at first, an amusing joke. It just gets less than amusing when two or three posters who hate me personally decide to use that as part of their personal crusade to get me off the comments.”

      That might be putting it a bit strongly, but yes, I’m also bored of people making the reference on the basis of about two comments. Knock it off, folks. What everyone should be a lot more worried about is what a formatting Nazi I’m becoming.

      At the moment, for every hour I spend writing I spend about 45 minutes tidying up people’s comments to make them readable. I’m getting really, really sick of it, especially the people (who for now shall remain nameless) who apparently think all the stuff I’ve said about it doesn’t apply to them.

      I’ve come very close in the last couple of days to deleting people’s comments just because they’re such an onscreen mess and such a total chore to fix. Readership for the last 30 days is now sitting at over 120,000 and I just don’t have time to wrangle that much of other people’s text. Unfortunately, for the reasons I’ve already explained, I’m also not prepared to just let it slide, because it’s not fair to other commenters.

      I want very, very, very much to keep this site uncensored and unmoderated. If you want that too, please think carefully before you hit Submit. If things don’t change, some people are going to find themselves banned.

      Those rules again:

    140. HandandShrimp says:

      The Flamster
      …and of course with most of us banned from the “Oh No We are Doomed” page it is impossible to counter the fibs…just the way they like their information…Erich Honecker style.

    141. Morag says:

      At the moment, for every hour I spend writing I spend about 45 minutes tidying up people’s comments to make them readable. I’m getting really, really sick of it, especially the people (who for now shall remain nameless) who apparently think all the stuff I’ve said about it doesn’t apply to them.
      I think there’s a real problem with the WordPress comment form.  The formatting you see when you’re typing isn’t the formatting you get when you hit “submit”.  You learn to create these very wide paragraph breaks so they’ll come out with a more reasonable break in the final comment, but it’s not just that.

      The optimum paragraph spacing can’t be achieved that way at all, I find.  If you want that, you have to go into the edit screen and delete one of the carriage returns at that stage.  That’s overkill, of course (except I just did it to this one).

      But then there’s other stuff.  I pasted a verse of a song into a comment yesterday, and it looked fine in the comment box.  After submitting it was dreadful, with no line breaks at all.  I immediately hit “edit” to fix it, only to find that as so often happens the system told me I couldn’t edit because another comment had been posted – except it hadn’t.

      Other stuff seems to go wrong if you type your comments in another programme and then paste them into the comments box.

      I can see that some people are wilfully ignoring instructions, but I suspect a lot of it is caused by the idiosyncrasies of WordPress.  I certainly find it a royal pain in the bahookie.

    142. Macart says:

      Typing in WordPress is bit like the old Norman Collier broken microphone sketch.
      an’t seem to  ake it do  hat I  ant  ometimes. 🙂

    143. braco says:

      any references I made to you as a Grammar Nazi were meant to be in warmth and a wink. I am sorry to have added to any feelings of being ‘picked on’ in any way. It will not happen again. 
      I look forward to your posts, even the ones I really don’t agree with, so please don’t even think about leaving.

    144. Barontorc says:

      OK Rev – take the bull by the horns and don’t print gibberish – it’s your site. It’s also a long long way from moderating comment, so don’t worry about that. Just put an ‘unreadable’ label stamp on for gibbering text. The message will soon get through.
      On paragraph breaks – its easy, hit a double enter – that is, hit the enter button twice – sorry for the gibbering! 

    145. The Man in the Jar says:

      I had the very same problem with a very quick “edit” yesterday. 🙁

    146. Scaraben says:

      Rev Stu,
      Did you not say a while back that two blank lines between paragraphs are better than none? If WordPress is quirky in this respect, perhaps a note about this could be included in your rules.
      A suggestion for a rule, or at least a hint, is that when replying to previous comments, one should preferably quote part of the previous comment or otherwise remind people of what that comment was about. I find that  I frequently come across comments which make no sense unless I search for the comment to which they are a response.
      On a site like this, arguably quality is more important than quantity, and deleting comments that would take too much of your time to make presentable is a very good idea.

    147. Doug Daniel says:

      Barontorc – yeah, I just hit enter twice and that does the trick. The first press inserts a carriage return, and the second inserts a line break.
      Morag – Grammar Nazi should be taken as a compliment! Give me a Grammar Nazi over someone who says “should of” instead of “should’ve” any day.

    148. Muscleguy says:

      Thanks for the link. I gave them £10, all I can afford. Don’t tell the wife!

    149. HandandShrimp says:

      I wouldn’t say I am a grammar Nazi but inelegant prose does induce within me an urge to goose step.

    150. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I think there’s a real problem with the WordPress comment form.”

      If anyone can recommend me a better plugin I’m all ears. But most of the ones I’ve looked at have been awful things obsessed with connecting your comments to your Facebook account and the like, and would be a massive chore for readers to use.

      I don’t know what’s so hard about line breaks, though. If you’re typing something in Word (or any similar prog) you hit Return twice for a new paragraph, not once. If you do that in the comment box, everything’s fine.

    151. David Smith says:

      I input much of my comment from Smartphone and if you don’t watch your thumb and the predictive text like a hawk they are easily capable of conveying an illusion of functional illiteracy. I apologise if any of my own content has transgressed. ????

    152. David Smith says:

      A perfect example has just been demonstrated by what should have been a smiley emoticon.

    153. scottish_skier says:

      You may have seen this before and I know nothing about wordpress, but a load of commenting related plugins here:

    154. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “predictive text”

      The moral character of anyone who doesn’t switch off predictive text as the first act of owning a new mobile phone is suspect.

    155. Morag says:

      The moral character of anyone who doesn’t switch off predictive text as the first act of owning a new mobile phone is suspect.
      My new phone doesn’t have it, but instead it presents me with a selection of possible words at the top of the keyboard screen, so that if one of them is what I want I can just tap on it and it will be entered.  It’s not as good as it might be, but having said that it’s very useful and it means that nothing is entered unless I have actively selected it.

      I hate predictive text with a fiery passion.

    156. velofello says:

      Morag: Yes there has been a few attempted jokes towards you, I’d reckon in response to the excellent qualities that you have in spades, determination and constancy to purpose.Oddly some people do not like determined and exacting personalities.Indeed I rose to your defence and objected to one very objectionable comment – but then I go and spoil it all by having wee teases towards you over playing music, my abiding pleasure. 
      i doubt that anyone reading and posting on Wings hates you, If it is so then they probably more generally hate Yes campaigners.
      I’m likely leading with my chin Rev., but why not open a file for poorly structured posts.There are people who struggle with the written word, seems a pity to exclude them.

    157. Morag says:

      Hey, I’m enjoying our ongoing conversations about music!

    158. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I’m likely leading with my chin Rev., but why not open a file for poorly structured posts.There are people who struggle with the written word, seems a pity to exclude them.”

      I’ve been very explicit that I’m moaning about formatting, NOT spelling or grammar.

    159. velofello says:

      @ Morag: Good. I’m a musical dabbler I’m afraid.I like to know how things work and how to play musical instruments, so I’ve played 3rd cornet as a youth in a brass band, fiddle in a fiddle orchestra, rhythm guitar in a swing band. Rhythm guitar was the most stressful. the paper music didn’t provide the melody just the chords, so I’d sit there counting bars until it was time to chime in again.And jazz chords aren’t easy to finger.And 3rd cornet the most boring!

    160. David Smith says:

      In the interests of preserving my moral reputation I have disengaged the auto-correct facility on this not-so-smart phone. Anything jarring here on in will be down to a not-so-smart author. 😉

    161. JLT says:

      I’m really glad that you are staying your hand for the moment. I know there are others who also make a persuasive case for quitting, and believe me, I can see it from their point of view. I understand what they are all saying. No one is right or wrong here.

      Personally for me, and right now, I think we need as many nationalists in the unions at this point in time. It gives us another front to fight on, and if you saw that video, it means for the likes of Lamont and Sarwar, that there isn’t even a hiding place within the large union meetings.

      Rabb, if the country votes ‘No’, then by all means, if your heart still wants to quit on the 19th of September 2014, then go for it. You’ve earned that right. You held back long enough to see what would happen.

      However, if the day should pass, and Scotland does become independent, then who knows what may happen. A lot of folk, like yourself, and like me, are going to be demanding that the Unions, as well as Labour, (in Scotland) change their ways.
      And personally, I think a lot of folk in the Unions will be agreeing to what you want to see; a fairer, morally just and more respectful society. 

    162. HenBroon says:

      ” I’m all ears.”
      Saw you outside the Caesar!nnach Rev, they don’t look that big ;o)
      Ode to my spell Chequer
      Eye halve a spelling chequer
      it came with my pea sea
      it planely marques four my revue
      miss steaks eye kin knot sea.
      Eye strike a key and tipe a werd
      and weight four it two say
      weather eye am wrong oar write
      it shows me strait a weigh.
      As soon as a mist ache is maid
      it nose bee fore two long
      and eye can put the error rite
      its rare lea ever wrong.
      Eye have run this poem threw it
      I am shore your pleased two no
      its letter perfect awl the weigh
      my chequer tolled me sew.

    163. Taranaich says:

      @Rev: The moral character of anyone who doesn’t switch off predictive text as the first act of owning a new mobile phone is suspect.
      You’re just saying that because you have a nice shiny smut phwoar.
      *Smack pheromone
      *Schwarz phoneme

    164. john king says:

      doug daniel says
      “A grunt and a slight nod of the head is more than enough.”
      Fit ur ye aboot man?
      ah might like ye but a dinne waant tae marry ye or onythin 🙂

    165. john king says:

      hen broon says
      “Ode to my spell Chequer”
      No shot sherbert dab! 😉

      rev says

      “especially the people (who for now shall remain nameless) who apparently think all the stuff I’ve said about it doesn’t apply to them.”

      if I make mistakes I’d rather you tell me rev I’m with mcart? on that one I hate grammatical ignorance “should of” is probably the most annoying one of all

    166. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “if I make mistakes I’d rather you tell me rev”

      Well, John, sentences traditionally start with a capital letter. How’s that for a start?

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