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Wings Over Scotland


Posted on January 02, 1968 by

For off-topic chat. Duh.

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    1. Alex Clark says:

      Cactus says:
      18 September, 2017 at 4:59 pm
      Afternoon all, hmm, from reading the comments, it sounds like it’s time to start organising the next Friends of Wings social…

      It’s usually good to give at least one months notice for people to plan, so here are some potential dates for consideration:

      Saturday, the 21st October
      Saturday, the 28th October
      Saturday, the 4th November
      Saturday, the 11th November

      Any later than the above dates and it’ll probably be too close to Merry December day for some.

      Venue to be confirmed.

      Anyone interested say AYE! Sorry cannae hear you say AYE!

      That’s better, I’m interested and why not one last blast to see out 2017? That would do for me. We have a future to look forward to from 2018 and beyond so a wee celebration of the future could be just the ticket.

      Open to suggestions but if none of you come up with one I’m for having a wee Wings night out in the Ferry again sometime in November. If we go for this then we need to push it and I’m not doing that by myself over on the MT.

      Everybody say AYE 🙂

    2. Alex Clark says:

      Just nabbed the 29,000th post on Off Topic LOL. So here’s an old tune.

    3. CameronB Brodie says:

      AYE! Any date any location.

    4. Liz g says:

      Aye… except if it’s the 21st of October

    5. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Peeps.

      I’m open to atten ding Wings get-togethers. I was speaking to Cactus about this on Saturday; I was thinking about another Invergowrie bash around the end of August but circumstances dictated otherwise. Then I mentioned November…

      The Invergowrie Inn is YES-friendly but Cactus and Alex have picked up the baton so I’ll take a back seat.

      Meanwhile, in other news…
      I had Channel 4 News on as aural wallpaper, whilst I was having a couple of games of “Mr Do!”.!

      Just before their last ad break, the had a story about Spice and Black Mamba and other, former, legal highs.

      I couldn’t get this programme out of my mind. One of the best exposés of the celebrity thirst for media fame.

    6. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Peeps.

      I’m open to attending Wings get-togethers. I was speaking to Cactus about this on Saturday; I was thinking about another Invergowrie bash around the end of August but circumstances dictated otherwise. Then I mentioned November…

      The Invergowrie Inn is YES-friendly but Cactus and Alex have picked up the baton so I’ll take a back seat.

      Meanwhile, in other news…
      I had Channel 4 News on as aural wallpaper, whilst I was having a couple of games of “Mr Do!”.!

      Just before their last ad break, the had a story about Spice and Black Mamba and other, former, legal highs.

      I couldn’t get this programme out of my mind. One of the best exposés of the celebrity thirst for media fame.

    7. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Apologies for double post. I had spotted the space in “atten ding”, did a quick edit, frumbled the submit button and ditto volte-face.


    8. CameronB Brodie says:

      @J.K. Rowling?
      Does it not give you a bit of a red neck pontificating about matters you clearly know little about? Do you not appreciate how shallow an understanding you have? Still, your wealthy so probably think you are correct about most thing.


    9. Alex Clark says:

      Right I’m starting a list and you know what that means.

      Saturday, the 11th November, Jolly’s in the Ferry Dundee.

      CameronB Brodie (first on the list)
      Liz g (hope you make November)
      Alex Clark

      Come on the rest of you, this year has been an amazing year and I’m sure we’ve all got plenty to talk about and share. I really need a few more names before I post this on the main thread so please let me know now!!

      One last effort to see out 2017, it’ll be worth it believe me 🙂

    10. CameronB Brodie says:

      Political and Cultural Nationalism


      Nationalism is an emotional identification with fellow subjects of a state on the basis of shared language, customs, values, religion or culture. Nationalism is not a sense of loyalty to international organizations such as the United Nations, or to non-governmental bodies such as Amnesty International. There is no such thing as “Prozac Nation,” even if that term is an arresting metaphor. However, it would be a mistake to insist too strongly upon a bond to a de jure state. It was meaningful to speak of nineteenth-century German nationalism before the unification of that country, even as it is meaningful to speak of Quebec nationalism today. On the other hand, one may distinguish between nationalism and a purely local attachment to one’s city or region. There is no such thing as Virginia nationalism today, although it might have been different in 1861 when Robert E. Lee followed his “country” into secession.

      The definition of nationalism also excludes a bond to a diverse state whose subjects cannot be said to share core set of values or a common culture. Before World War I, there was no such thing as Austro-Hungarian nationalism. In such cases, one should distinguish between nationalism and patriotism, for the first but not the second term seems to require a common set of values.

      In case you missed the salient point of the matter, Scotland and England are separate countries, each with their own vivid and unique histories and cultures. Your British nationalism seeks to replace these with an ultimately unsustainable pseudo-culture (with the cult of Bentham at it’s ‘heart’).

      Do you appreciate the concept of ethics? Catch yourself.

    11. CameronB Brodie says:

      Previous comment @J.K. Rowling.

    12. Cactus says:

      AYE fae me Alex.

      Ahm oot in the city drinking things.


    13. yesbot says:

      Alex Clark says:
      19 September, 2017 at 8:58 pm
      Right I’m starting a list and you know what that means.

      ..and aye fae me Alex.

    14. CameronB Brodie says:

      @J.K. Rowling

      Gomberg, Paul — Patriotism Is Like Racism

      Gomberg, Paul. “Patriotism Is Like Racism.” Chicago Journals 101.1 (1990): 144-50. Web. 26 Jan. 2015.

      Gomberg argues that “patriotism is no better than racism” (144). He appeals to Stephen Nathanson’s definition of moderate patriotism as “preference […] for one’s nation, its traditions and institutions, and one’s fellow nationals, but within the limits of morality, that is, provided one does not violate the ‘legitimate needs and interests of other nations’ and their nationals” (145). In other words, patriotism should be directed inward at one’s own country, without infringing upon other nations.

    15. cearc says:

      A list? Yep, I’m a very probably.

      Well done Alex.

    16. Alex Clark says:

      OK well there we have it so far the dirty half dozen!

      CameronB Brodie
      Liz g
      Alex Clark

      So come on and don’t be shy, the last great event of the year and you really don’t want to miss it. So get yourself on “the list” LOL.

      Just kidding and trying to whip up some enthusiasm but I’d really like you to come along as I know we’ll have a great time. Some time tomorrow maybe I will post this on the main thread hopefully we’ll have a dirty dozen by then 🙂 to start with.

    17. CameronB Brodie says:

      @J.K. Rowling

      Just patriotism?

      Patriotism is subject to searing moral criticism, but is it necessarily a vice? The article offers a conditional defense of patriotism. It acknowledges that even at its best, patriotism is a dangerous virtue and prone to abuse. Nevertheless, we ought to acknowledge the truth that a just patriotism is possible, and we should seek to specify and bring about its conditions. Just as it is permissible to form deep attachments to imperfect others, so, too, it is not always wrong to feel a special attachment to and responsibility for one’s own country. Even so, addressing patriotism’s manifest dangers requires enacting practical institutional reforms. These include greater protections for rights of political dissent and contestation, insulating the school curriculum from politicization and bringing more attention to the nation’s shortcomings, and greatly expanding the role of international institutions and perspectives which furnish a salutary check on national self-preference.

    18. Fred says:

      Had a trip to the capital today to see the Jacobite exhibition in the Scottish Museum. Very interesting to see stuff which folk will probably never get the chance to see together again. The organisers have been taking stick about the lack of a Gaelic content but have Kathleen MacInnes singing in the background.
      Cha till mi tuillidh!

    19. CameronB Brodie says:

      @J.K. Rowling
      Somehow, ultimately, I hope you can find some humility in your heart.

      Public Choice – A Primer


      The Institute of Economic Affairs
      The logic of Public Choice does not doom us inevitably to being exploited by interest groups, our legislators or the bureaucracy. The Virginia School branch of the Public Choice approach gives particular emphasis to the role of constitutions as a means by which people can protect themselves against such abuse. And it explores the kind of constitution that rational self-interested individuals would create in order to do so.

      Introduction to Public Choice Theory

      Public Choice Theory

    20. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Ahm oot in the city drinking things.”

      Me too, Cactus, but I seem to have missed you.

    21. Alex Clark says:

      Do you get it? Well do you? Hahahhahahaha

    22. crazycat says:

      @ Tinto Chiel

      Re: whether arms really did meet across Scotland

      We were told it had joined up, and there was much cheering. Possible, of course, that gaps re-emerged while the message was being conveyed, but there were enough people participating to make it continuous.

    23. Cactus says:

      Aweright Tinto Chiel ~

      Be me cryptic or not… my default is Le Clutha.

      We had FUN!

    24. Tinto Chiel says:

      crazycat: thanks for that! Pretty much a news blackout then, just like today.


      Glad you got home ok, Cactus. I was in that wee Russian restaurant in King Street, but was a very good boy and home before 12.00.

      Le Clutha est vraiment formidable! Sorry I didn’t get the chance to chat on Sat. but I met the famous Jock Scot. Quel chapeau!

    25. Tinto Chiel says:

      Meant to say: been going to drum classes, chinas.

      How’m ah doin’?

    26. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Paul Robertson
      Would you consider yourself a patriot? What sort of patriot and to which nation, Scotland or England?

      N.B. One can not be a patriot to a unitary state.

    27. Betty Boop says:

      @ Alex
      @ Bdtt,

      Hi guys, sent you both an email for info. Alex, hope you haven’t changed you address.

    28. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Paul Robertson
      Understanding what a democratic deficit is might help you overcome your limited world-view and ill-founded dogma, IMHO.

    29. Cactus says:

      Morning TC, aye the Cossachok, good place.

      Wooft, that was some night, last night.

      The power of the peaty whisky!

      They call me the wanderer.

      I go around.


    30. CameronB Brodie says:

      N.B. One can not be a patriot to a unitary state.

      N.B. One can not be a moderate patriot to a unitary state.

    31. David says:

      @CameronB Brodie, the topic of Public Choice Theory looks interesting, especially in relation to “constitutions as a means by which people can protect themselves”, and “the kind of constitution that rational self-interested individuals would create”. So…

      1: Can you expand on the issue – preferably in words of less than 5 syllables. 🙂
      2: Is the Wiki entry on Public Choice Theory a good basic summary, and/or accurate?
      3: Is this an accurate summary: public choice theory is the application of economic thinking to political issues.

      The issue of constitutions is relevant in that Indy Scotland will presumably need to write one for itself. Unless we agree that the UK model of “unwritten constitution” is the way forward.

      Also, some people recently were talking of differences between the referendum situation in Scotland and in Catalonia. Notably that Scotland was legally entitled to hold a vote, whereas the written Spanish constitution prohibits any vote in Catalonia.

      I would assume that a nation’s constitution could be rapidly rewritten, if there was a sudden need to do so, or a political will to make amendments.

    32. Tinto Chiel says:

      Cactus, I prescribe a strict regime of bending exercises, spring water and Mornflake Bran Oatmeal porridge.

      In that order…

      Hey, hep cats, it’s dark in here in these shades.

      Ooh, where’s me washboard?

    33. David says:

      @ Tinto Chiel, when you get behind your drum kit, I hear you turn into a wild thing…

    34. Tinto Chiel says:


      Bit too understated for me, David.


      How do we distinguish the patriot from the nationalist, Cameron?

      Is it like rebel v. Freedom fighter?

    35. CameronB Brodie says:

      Hi David. Perhaps, reasonable and spot on. 🙂

      Principles of Economics

      15.3 Choices in the Public Sector
      How are choices made in the public sector? This section examines two perspectives on public sector choice. The first is driven by our examination of market failure. Choices in the public sector are a matter of locating problems of market failure, determining the efficient solution, and finding ways to achieve it. This approach, called the public interest theory of government, assumes that the goal of government is to seek an efficient allocation of resources.

      An alternative approach treats public sector choices like private sector choices. The body of economic thought based on the assumption that individuals involved in public sector choices make those choices to maximize their own utility is called public choice theory. Public choice theory argues that individuals in the public sector make choices that maximize their utility—whether as voters, politicians, or bureaucrats, people seek solutions consistent with their self-interest. People who operate business firms may try to influence public sector choices to increase the profits of their firms. The effort to influence public choices to advance one’s own self-interest is called rent-seeking behavior.

      Public Choice Theory and the Politics of Good and Evil

      The Limits of Public Choice Theory

    36. CameronB Brodie says:

      P.S. Pubic Choice Theory acknowledges the need to protect the public from bureaucratic excess and psychopaths in public office – written constitutions are a means of achieving such protection from potential political abuse of human rights.

    37. CameronB Brodie says:

      Tinto Chiel
      Nationalist tend to have an emotional attachment to their national culture and a concern for their nation’s best interests. Patriots do not require such an attachment as their loyalty is largely ego driven, self-serving and akin to racism. However, moderate patriots don’t tend to believe in supremacist ideologies and so generally don’t interfere in the democracy of other nations.

      Britain is the political ‘union’ between the nations of Scotland and England. As such, British patriots have no moral justification in seeking to impose English hegemony on Scots! Not in my book anyway.

    38. Cactus says:


      Had meself a large glass of de l’eau before dormiries TC. Better still, I made a big pot of my special spicy lentil n veg soup before I headed out last night… said soup is being supped the now, yummy. Tell me this.. why do some people have this tendency to liquidise and reduce all their soups? I like mines chunky, country-style.

      iScotland is getting ever-closer.


    39. Tinto Chiel says:

      An amazing coincidence: having my own rustic homemade non-spicy lentil with flakes of ham hough in it: AYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

      Thanks for that, CBB.

      Told you I could be taught.

    40. Chick McGregor says:

      For history buffs.

      Ekaterina Amazon prime

      Russian historical TV drama series on the rise of Catherine the Great.

      From the background reading I did prior to visiting St Petersburg a couple of years ago it seems to be pretty accurate historically, as one might expect from a Russian production on Russian history.

      It has all the power struggle intrigue of Game of Thrones but based on reality.

      It is subtitled and the direction is a bit quirky compared to Western TV but it grows on you.
      There is an occasional narrator’s voice, clearly a Russian speaking in English and his tone is of the mono variety (oxymoron alert) which gives the feel of a docu-drama to it.

      We are up to episode 4 and it just gets better, will be fascinating to see if the lead, Marina Aleksandrova manages the personality transformation from innocent young girl into the femme formidable she was to become later.

      It is happening already though.

      If you want to learn about Russian (and European) history which is not about the communist revolution or the Napoleonic wars then this is a must see.

      But if you are only suffering from the loss of a power play fix now that GOT is having its hiatus this could help out with that too.

    41. CameronB Brodie says:


      Public Choice and Constitutional Design

      This chapter reviews the literature on public choice theory and constitutional design, focusing in particular on the sub-discipline of constitutional political economy. The basic framework of constitutional political economy has been in place for several decades and has produced some important insights into particular institutions. Other institutions, however, have been ignored, and there is a relatively small amount of empirical work testing the propositions. The chapter summarizes the work to date and identifies areas for more attention in the future.

      The chapter first reviews the core assumption that constitutional politics are really different than ordinary politics, and the corollary that the constitutional level is more likely to produce public-regarding behavior. It finds these assumptions to be less than fully convincing,in part because constitutional endurance seems to require some level of interest group behavior, and because constitutions can be transformed through amendment.

    42. CameronB Brodie says:


      These minority agitators do not have the right to push us into a separate state. Non-nat areas would not accept it. They need to know that.

      Are you for real as you have the appearance of someone who is detached from reality? You do appreciate the concepts of human dignity and human liberty?

      P.S. Which nation are you a patriot of, Scotland or England?

    43. Liz g says:

      Cameron and David….re Constitutional change.
      That was one of the flaws of the proposed interim Constitution in 2014.
      It proposed a super majority in Holyrood to change our Constitution.

      IMHO that’s not enough protection from a Government on a power trip coupled with a weak or complying opposition.
      There is I am sure an example of that actually happening somewhere!

      But also it is leaving the people out of direct participation on Constitutional change that has allowed the US government to keep emergency measures in place and keep the Patriot act legal,since 9/11, eroding many of their citizens constitutional rights for the duration of the emergency.
      The 16 YEAR emergency!!!

      We are fortunate in that we are a small enough country to credibly have regular referendums.
      So my preferred mechanism for Constitutional change would be….

      A super majority in Holyrood to seek the people’s approval for the proposed change to the Constitution.
      This also has the benefit of one Generation not being able to bind another. Best of both worlds to coin a phrase.
      And emergency measures that impact Scottish Citizens Constitutional rights should have a sunset clause..

      And yes we should be thinking of this stuff now….. before so called civic Scotland dive in to run the show,as soon as the Yes vote is delivered.
      Otherwise it will be a Constitution to suit them and any benefit or protection for us will just be by chance!

    44. CameronB Brodie says:

      Liz g
      If you’re wanting any more out of me then it’s only fair we discuss rates. No? 🙂

      Seriously though, constitutional design and legislative functionalism are not something I know much about. I hope we already have folk looking into this though, as I think the process could be helpful as a means of informing the next indyref campaign.

      Separation of Powers: A New Look at the Functionalist Approach

    45. CameronB Brodie says:

      Why is Functional Theory relevant to Scotland’s democratic deficit, particularly in light of the BritNat “power elite’s” intention to drag Scotland out of the EU?

      Sociology: Understanding and Changing the Social World, Comprehensive Edition, v. 1.0

      14.4 Theories of Power and Society

      Pluralist Theory: A Functionalist Perspective

      Recall (from Chapter 1 “Sociology and the Sociological Perspective”) that the smooth running of society is a central concern of functionalist theory. When applied to the issue of political power, functionalist theory takes the form of pluralist theory, which says that political power in the United States and other democracies is dispersed among several “veto groups” that compete in the political process for resources and influence. Sometimes one particular veto group may win and other times another group may win, but in the long run they win and lose equally and no one group has any more influence than another (Dahl, 1956).Dahl, R. A. (1956). A preface to democratic theory. Chicago, IL: University of Chicago Press.

      Democratic Theory

      Global Democratic Theory: A Critical Introduction

    46. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Michael Kelly
      You do appreciate the concept of colonial rule – i.e. to be governed by an external power which you are unable to influence? Check the label on your patriotism and you might find direction to an ethical approach to life. Probably not though.

      Critical Race and Postcolonial Theory
      Neither critical race nor postcolonial theory can be understood apart from histories of anti-racist and anti-colonial political struggles. But while their specific histories may differ, what critical race and postcolonial theories share in common is the fact that they emerged out of—and represent intellectual challenges to—contexts of racial oppression. They also borrow heavily from one another, and share a commitment to developing theory based not solely on the thoughts of academics, but also from the voices and experiences of people of color and the former subjects of colonialism.

    47. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Owen Jones

      Solidarity with Catalonia! The Spanish government is at war with democracy and civil rights – and the whole world is watching

      What about Scotland eh? Have you figured out yet whether you’re a socialist or an English nationalist with aspirations of egalitarianism? What label of patriotism do you wear son?

    48. Tinto Chiel says:

      Still think I come in too heavy on the cymbals at 1.32:

      Michael Kelly, Cameron, like John Reid and Gorgeous George Galloway, typify that strangest of creations: someone from an Irish republican background, a supporter of the colonially-oppressed proletariat everywhere, who inexlicably wreathes himself in the Butcher’s Apron and calls his fellow Scots Nazis/Vile Seps.

      As I have said elsewhere, when we are free, there will be a growth industry in PhDs studying the corkscrew contortions of these Scotch Cringers.

      The Britnat Self-Loather: weirdest organism on the planet.

      The Mariana Trench has nothing more grotesque.

    49. CameronB Brodie says:

      Tinto Chiel
      Michael Kelly – well rewarded for being a racist bigot.

      Britain in a nutshell.

    50. Quine frae Angus says:

      Well whaddya know. I visit Off-topic for the first time in months to find my favourite Wingers organising a Wingy autumn get-together!

      Better still, in my favourite spot….the Ferry! (Broughty Ferry).

      Date’s in my diary. Hope I can get there xx

    51. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Alex –

      Please put me on the list as a 50/50 – you really should go ahead and just do it anyway, the last one (well, that I was at anyway) was braw.


    52. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @CameronB –

      Haven’t really had time to catch-up with your links since you returned, but will make time and have a stab at some of it.

      Latter stages of uni for me involved a wee bit of postcolonial theory and I got right into Homi Bhabha. Some don’t like him, think he’s a chancer, but his ideas look pretty sound and useful, esp if applied to what we’re doing here.

      Also, don’t know if you’ve ever encountered a Scottish academic called Scott Hames (Stirling Uni) but I’ve a feeling you’d like his stuff. He had (has?) a brilliant wee online magazine called ‘The Bottle Imp’, well worth a swatch if you haven’t seen it already.

      Anyway, hope things are good with you brother, hoots aplenty as aye. 😉

    53. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      Pile in mate. Some of the links will be interesting, some not. I’m not sure if any of this knowledge will help but I’m trying to strengthen our argument with social science and theory. I’d also hope to at least encouraging some No voting readers to question their previous decision. Btw, you appear to be confusing me with an academic, my field of vision is pretty narrow and as I’m not the keenest of readers, my appreciation of literature is woeful. Same for Scottish culture. Anyway, I’ll away and check out The Bottle Imp. Cheers mate, hope you can make the next gathering. 😉

    54. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @CamB –

      Well, to me you’re as close to an ‘academic’ as makes no difference. I can’t imagine what academia is worth unless it at least *tries* to help rather than marginalise. I suspect we’ve all had too many bad experiences at the hands of ‘professors’ who have nothing they enjoy ‘professing’ about more than their own expertise/status. Fuck ’em. I’d rather read a random bunch of links on here than slog through some PhD pishery.

      In any case, the general thrust of progressive thought appears to be for self-determination and against colonialism. That can only help our cause, so, aye, I’m all for ‘intellectuals’, be they professional, amateur, unwitting, or whatever else!


    55. William Wallace says:

      @ Ian

      Fuck ’em. I’d rather read a random bunch of links on here than slog through some PhD pishery.

      Spot on.

      Academia is akin to blinkering a horse. It is a rigid approach to a particular discipline and leaves little room for free thought if you are chasing the paper. It narrows yir thinking fir sure. Gi me a drunken but lucid rant any day.

      Pit me doon for 50/50 an ah on the Ferry meet up (might hae to bring meh mither, brither and sister and the rest o the crazy gang if they ken ehm going). Got a wedding in Newcastle that day but, eh could probably wriggle oot o the do that night and head up the road.

      Could eh possibly get a few volunteers to test oot a wee pro indy website that ehm working on. Dinnae want to advertise it here just yet but, could dae wi testing the functionality o it and working oot what improvements need making.

    56. Paula Rose says:

      What’s pubic choice theory?

    57. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @William Wallace –

      Hoots mon.

      Only time I’ve ever been in Broughty Ferry was for the Wings night. I only stayed about three hours, didny even have a pint. Most fun ah’ve ever had with all my clothes on.


    58. William Wallace says:

      @ Paula

      That’s when fowk share their best ideas for getting rid o the crabs 🙂

      @ Ian

      If ehm meeting up fir this ane wir ah jumpin into the Tay in the scud pished. Nae excuses 🙂

    59. Alex Clark says:

      Re Wings gathering in the Ferry, thanks for all the support. I’ve heard on the grapevine that there’s a possibility of an alternative event being organised for around the same time.

      I’ve agreed that it wouldn’t be sensible for both and to be honest I’m easy as long as there is something happening. So I’ll hang fire with publicising the proposed doo in the Ferry from the Main thread for now until I hear more concrete info.

      There’s no worry I’m sure all you good folk so far interested would be just as interested in the alternative if it comes off.

      Will keep you all posted, so far 7 Ayes and 2 Mibbees.

      CameronB Brodie
      Liz g
      Alex Clark
      Quine frae Angus
      Ian Brotherhood (50/50)
      William Wallace (50/50)

    60. Alex Clark says:

      Oh and I meant to add a big Hi to Quine frae Angus. Nice to hae you back.

    61. William Wallace says:

      That you hitting me me with rubber ding again PNR 🙂 It might have worked in Glesga but, it’ll no work in Dundee 😉 Nae hiding place ya big ferry woofter 🙂 😉 Fancy changing the venue and hitting the toon?

    62. William Wallace says:

      “me with the rubber ding”

      You ken the single malt is kicking in when eh start repeating words like “me”

    63. William Wallace says:

      Meh femily will shut aff caws fir wi ah so we can perty withoot interruption.

    64. Betty Boop says:

      @ Quinie

      Hi Quinie, guid tae see ye. You’ve got a lot of reading to do. Some fantastically involved conversations going on the last couples of days on OT. Join the fun or just try to get your head around them! 🙂

    65. William Wallace says:

      Back in the day 😉

    66. yesindyref2 says:

      Imagine that, it only made 17 in the charts.

    67. William Wallace says:

      Promised myself I wouldnae post on here drunk tae 😉 Going aboot as well as my diet.

    68. Paula Rose says:

      Yippee another list – star on board.

    69. CameronB Brodie says:

      Re. Public Choice Theory.

      DeVo 2.0 Freedom Of Choice

    70. Paula Rose says:

      Gosh CameronB I missed that at the time ta – I was a big Devo fan.

    71. CameronB Brodie says:

      Out-of-touch ‘academics’ who share your pathology of outlook, have totally screwed up the Scottish people’s self-conception of themselves. Your “psychological sense of community” appears not to be rooted in Scotland. Away and find a way of escaping the ‘One Nation’ cult and you might then be able to find an ethical approach to life.

      Of course, the same can be said of the BBC in Scotland.

      Psychological Sense of Community:
      Theory of McMillan & Chavis (1986)

      In their discussions of the construct of Psychological Sense of Community, McMillan & Chavis (1986) prefer the abbreviated label “Sense of Community,” and provide the following one-sentence definition: “Sense of Community is a feeling that members have of belonging, a feeling that members matter to one another and to the group, and a shared faith that members’ needs will be met through their commitment to be together.”

    72. William Wallace says:

      I take it my drunken humour was only funny tae me 🙂 Sorry folks.

      In case anybody does a Kezia on me fir the woofter comment, it was my inner Victor voice that said it 🙂 @ 2:20

    73. CameronB Brodie says:

      William Wallace
      Very droll. 😉

    74. William Wallace says:

      @ Cameron


      Comedy fae the gutter when yir guttered. It seems funny at the time. 😉

    75. CameronB Brodie says:

      William Wallace
      Crack on mate, we’re all human, I think. Btw, I’m not the boss. 😉

    76. CameronB Brodie says:

      Your vocabulary is one of fear and hostility and is rooted in a time best forgotten. Do you not think it rational to brighten your thinking up? Is that possible? Hope does appear lost to you as there is no positive argument for a return to colonial rule in the 21st century.

      The Untouchables – Tighten Up

    77. CameronB Brodie says:


      “Imagination is not an empirical or superadded power of consciousness, it is the whole of consciousness as it realizes its freedom.” – Jean-Paul Sartre

      New Biological Books
      Reviews and Brief Notices
      The Psychology of Imagination. Jean-Paul Sartre

    78. CameronB Brodie says:

      I hope you follow a programe of continual learning?

      The cultural landscape sign from the horizons
      of semiotic anthropology

      The work seeks to build theoretical and logical links based on the triadic theory of Charles Sanders Peirce (1839-1914) within the categories of cultural landscape and territory. The article tries to demonstrate how cultural landscapes and territory, as contrastable expressions in the empirical reality, constitute mental models that express complex rich and complicated social nuances and meanings in terms of scientific readings for anthropology. The work expresses how the spheres of semiotics significance allow for a logical, metalogical and dialogical adjustment of the models of environmental interpretation, that exist in the field of environmental thought and in its readings of territory and culture.

      Through an epistemological theoretical approach, and therefore political, given the possibilities that are displayed for the revitalization of the territory/territoriality understood for its triadic relations, the article seeks to link the idea of cultural landscape, with an environmental origin, with Charles Sanders Peirce’s (1839-1914) Theory of Reality, which he essentially invites throughout all of his work and particularly in A Man, a sign to the determination of the nature of reality, mainly related to signs where the individual and the community cannot conceive nor be understood outside the linguistic and cognitive system (1988: 118-121). Pierce’s work, for its logical rigor, is essential for every science interested in building links and communication relationships with other sciences and in organizing its principles of discovery (1996). The article aspires to supplement, based on semiotic anchors, the profound theoretical developments which are related to the categories of cultural landscape and territory from the perspective of environmental anthropology and ecology (Abel & Stepp, 2003; Álvarez, 2012; Cárdenas, 2007; Ingold 2005).

    79. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Twenty Flight Rock for Smallaxe ramorra on NFA on Argyll Independent Radio not to mention Burn That Candle

    80. CameronB Brodie says:

      I can’t see this being your cup of tea. That’s a pity, frankly.

      Sociopolitical Development as an Antidote for Oppression—Theory and Action


      Although psychology has an ample vocabulary for describing individual pathologies, the development of theory and concepts for understanding societal pathology remains in its infancy. Because community psychology theory views human behavior in its context, it is essential that interventions not be limited to stress management, personal coping, and similar programming. Interventions should not leave social injustice undiscussed and unchallenged. In this spirit we present a theory of oppression and sociopolitical development that informs an intervention with young, African American men in an urban setting. The five-stage theory highlights the role of Freire’s notion of “critical consciousness,” a sociopolitical version of critical thinking, in enhancing an awareness of sociopolitical as well as personal forces that influence behavior. The theory also draws on African American social-change traditions and their spiritual aspects. The action section of the study describes the Young Warriors program’s use of mass culture (rap videos and film) as stimuli for the development of critical consciousness. Highlights from an empirical investigation of an eight-session high school version of the program will be presented to illustrate the practical challenges and benefits of sociopolitical interventions.

    81. CameronB Brodie says:

      This one’s definitely not for you. That doesn’t invalidate it’s existence or essential nature though, does it?

      Itineraries of protest signage
      The pro-democracy occupation of three commercial and retail areas in Hong Kong that lasted over two months in the fall of 2014 – known as the Umbrella Movement – created a myth of Utopia (Barthes 1984 [1954]). In this paper, we track the itineraries (Scollon 2008) and resemiotizations (Iedema 2003) of the protest signage to show how they mythologized the Movement by “branding space”, “regulating and disciplining actions”, and “unifying the voice of protest”. We argue that the semiotic processes and effects involved in the emplacement and widespread distribution of the protest signage were not only key in the mobilization during the Movement but also the emergence and reinforcement of a “new” Hongkonger identity in the long run.

      If I may be bold enough to offer some advice, you would benefit from thinking before you comment further on the future of Scotland. Presently, you’re a total embarrassment.

    82. CameronB Brodie says:

      “You either believe in yourself or you don’t.” – Captain James T Kirk

      Sorry for hoggin’ space folks, I’ll be back on the meds soon. 🙂

      Arte Bella – Ska Trek

    83. CameronB Brodie says:

      Arte Bella – Ska Trek
      Ska Trek – Arte Bella

      SKA TREK 2 🙂

    84. CameronB Brodie says:

      The Yoonstream doesn’t stand a chance, frankly.

      Lloyd Robinson – Cuss Cuss

    85. CameronB Brodie says:

      Re. the law always being correct. Bollocks, the law is normatively bias, i.e. it favours the culture from which it originates. The law is a tool of opresion, as well as an enabler of justice.

      When, and How, Should Cognitive Bias Matter to Law?

      Findings about cognitive bias drawn from behavioral science have been used to justify rejecting state decisions, changing consumer credit laws, regulating performance-enhancing drugs, revising the doctrine of fiduciary responsibility, and ceasing to treat some juvenile convictions as “strikes” under a “three strikes”law.’ These arguments share a structure in common:
      1. Before considering evidence from behavioral science, we
      endorse some legal norm.
      2. Evidence from behavioral science shows that this legal norm involves, or is influenced by, certain cognitive processes, which we call biases
      3. The effect of biases on the legal norm in question justifies rejecting the norm and adopting an alternative that avoids or minimizes their effect.

    86. CameronB Brodie says:

      Explaining Positive and Normative Statements
      Whenever you are reading articles on current affairs it is important to be able to distinguish between objective and subjective statements.

    87. CameronB Brodie says:

      Legal Theory Lexicon: Welfare, Well-Being, and Happiness


      Normative legal theory is concerned with the ends and justifications for the law as a whole and for particular legal rules. Previous entries in the legal have examined exemplars of the three great traditions in normative theory–consequentialist, deontological, and aretaic (or virtue-centered) perspectives. There are important differences between these three families of theories at a very general and abstract level: for example, deontologists emphasize rights and wrongs while consequentialists emphasize the goodness or badness of states of affairs. And there are differences between particular theories within the broad families: within consequentialism, for example, welfarists emphasize preference satisfaction, whereas hedonistic utiliarians emphasize pleasure and pain.

    88. CameronB Brodie says:

      How to Overcome Unconscious and Hidden Biases
      Buried prejudice and biases influence our feelings, decisions, and behavior in sometimes surprising ways. Recognizing and overcoming these biases can be challenging, but is an important process when trying to be a tolerant, open-minded person. Start by labeling and realistically confronting the biases you have. Once you’ve done that, you can work to change your thought patterns and behavior to make steps toward overcoming prejudice.

      6 Ways to Overcome Your Biases for Good
      Let your actions take the lead.

      Predicting Happiness: How Normative Feeling Rules Influence (and Even Reverse) Durability Bias

    89. CameronB Brodie says:

      The Impact Bias: Why We Overestimate the Emotional Impact of Future Events
      People often overestimate the intensity and duration of their emotional reactions to future events. This tendency is called the impact bias, which is just one of many cognitive biases. Because of the impact bias, people fail to make the right decisions about their emotional reactions to future events.

      What Is Impact Bias? (Cognitive Bias)

      Impact Bias

    90. Tinto Chiel says:

      I think Al-Dossary may have enjoyed that…..

    91. CameronB Brodie says:

      Here’s one for the supporters of the Anglo-American New Right.

      Jello Biafra & D.O.A. – FULL METAL JACKOFF

    92. CameronB Brodie says:

      Deviance and Social Control: New Right Realism


      If New Left Realist approaches to the study of crime and deviance owe some kind of debt to past theories of deviance, the same is true of New Right Realism. In this instance, however, the origins of New Right Realism lie in both
      Control Theory and, as you might expect, political Conservatism.

      Unlike the form of “Marxist Realism” of New Left Realism, the “realist” aspect of the neo-conservative theories grouped under the heading of the “New Right Realism” relates more to a “realistic” view about the causes of crime and deviance than to a particular set of methodological principles. In this respect, New Right Realist forms of analysis are, as we shall see, grounded squarely on positivist methodological principles.

      Control Theory in Sociology: Definition & Concept Related Study Materials

      The ‘European New Right’: Defining and Defending Europe’s Heritage An Interview with Alain de Benoist By Ian B. Warren
      In the following essay and interview, Professor Warren takes a close look at the “European New Right,”a cultural-intellectual movement that offers not only an unconventional view of the past, but a challenging perspective on the present and future. This piece admittedly represents a departure from the Journal’s usual content and tone. All the same, we hope and trust that readers will appreciate this look at an influential movement that not only revives an often neglected European intellectual-cultural tradition, but which also — as French writer Alain de Benoist explains here — seeks to chart Europe’s course into the 21st century. — The Editor (IHR)

    93. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      “The Evergreens” page is still going strong. More input may be required to combat the nay-sayers…

    94. CameronB Brodie says:

      Book Review of “Beyond the New Right” by John Gray
      The ‘New Right’ under examination in this book is neither the populist American New Right of Richard Viguerie, nor the eclectic, anticapitalist and cultural European New Right of Alain de Benoist, but rather the neo-liberal (i.e. neo-capitalist), classical liberal, libertarian, and neoconservative tendency that rose to prominence in Britain and America under the auspices of Thatcher and Reagan, centered on the exaltation of the market, market-solutions, and unlimited economic growth as the panacea for the deep-rooted crises of these societies.

      Ideology in politics: reflections on Lady Thatcher’s legacy

      The new right in the new Europe? Unravelling the ideology of ’ Czech Thatcherism’

    95. David says:

      @ Dave McEwan Hill, I was burning the candle at both ends (geddit!) so only tuned in to your radio show at the spot when Tina Turner was giein’ it laldy wi’ Nutbush City Limits. 🙁

      Ah well, did hear 20 Flight Rock!

    96. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Kicked of with Burn That Candle, David

    97. Nana says:

      A wee tune for Smallaxe who is taking some time out, recovering from the latest hospital stay and chillin with family.

    98. Liz g says:

      stay well Smallaxe haste ye back and tell Mrs Smallaxe I am asking for her X

    99. CameronB Brodie says:

      Take care Smallaxe.

      Burning Spear – Mek We Dweet (“Let us do it”)

    100. K1 says:

      It disnae help when other regulars are backing up the naysayers who are aiming fire at regular long term commenters just because they voice their opinions on the nonsense being spouted in a more direct manner….honest tae god if I hear one more fucking supporter of independence declare the length of time they’ve been supporting it followed by a complete lot of shit about our current dynamic I’ll come through the screen and see it ma bite is worse than ma bark. (yes I would just hurt ma heid oan the screen)

      And if I hear the same old trope of ‘they way yur writing yur wurdz oan the screen is gonnae make people vote No’…I’ll…I’ll…well I don’t know what I’ll do, do I? Just pisses me off no end that we have to contend with this level of interaction about ‘who is in a clique’ without mentioning names of said ‘clique’ etc coming from people who should actually know better than to feed into the ranting maniacal tosswollop of the likes or coprolite and man at C&A, to name two of the most frequent purveyors of this type of pish.

      Rant over. Back to avoiding MT for days on end again.

    101. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi K1.

      You’ve got to remember that those of the ‘under the bridge’ group always want to have the last word on a page, so that peeps just browsing, who go to a page and see the last comments, think that those comments are indicative of the whole site.

      When they become so blatant, as in “The Evergreens”, we can’t allow their last comment to stand as the offering that casual browsers could see.

      Ken whuh eh’m sayin’, iye?

    102. William Wallace says:

      @ K1 🙂

      Get it ah aff yir chest on aff topic mate and fire right back intae the stramash. 😉

      If yir needing handers, Eh’ll derail them ah wi some drunken stupidity. 🙂

    103. William Wallace says:

      @ Paula

      Naw 🙂

      Lead the dance.

    104. K1 says:

      Aye, ken whit yer sayin’ B. Cheers William…ah’ll keep you in mind fur hauners 😉

    105. William Wallace says:

      Afore eh go. Be well Sma Axe. In meh thoughts as ever. You are too big to be sma. There is nae cancer on earth can beat you.

      See ya soon man. Keep well.


      Peace Always 😉

    106. CameronB Brodie says:

      IMHO, the longevity of British nationalism is partly the result of deeply ingrained institutional racism.

      Implicit racial bias and the anatomy of institutional racism

      Jules Holroyd discusses recent psychological findings and how better to understand the practice within institutional settings

      The claim that policing practice in the UK is institutionally racist was widely accepted after the Macpherson Report at the end of last century. The report included the idea that there may be widespread ‘unwitting prejudice’ that lead to racially discriminatory practice. The recent findings of empirical psychology, about implicit racial biases, provide a framework for better understanding this part of institutional racism. Understanding the workings of implicit racial bias helps us to see the implications for the kinds of steps needed to combat racial discrimination in policing and in the criminal justice system more broadly.

      Symbolic and Modern Racism

      Is “Symbolic Racism” Racism? A Review Informed by Intergroup Behavior

    107. Tinto Chiel says:

      “IMHO, the longevity of British nationalism is partly the result of deeply ingrained institutional racism.”

      Yes, there’s no doubt in my mind that the British Empire, the greatest, most extensive and most acquisitive land grab in history, has produced this racism, as well as British Exceptionalism and Entitlement.

      I think it’s why the Establishment cling so desperately to The Last Colony. Apart from our resources, which are essential to keep the 1% super-rich rich, we are needed psychologically to give them something they can control and exploit.

      We are a big jewel in a much-reduced crown.

    108. Marie Clark says:

      Nana, thank you for the information on Smallaxe. I noticed that he was missing from the board, and wondered if he was not too good at the moment.

      Keep on keeping on Smallaxe my friend, we need you in this fight.
      Here’s a wee tune to keep you going.

    109. Nana says:

      Morning Marie, I see Macart is also missing these days. Maybe just taking time out as we all need to now and then.

      If you are looking in Sam

    110. Daisy Walker says:

      Nana thanks for all the links on this quiet morning. Always appreciated.

      Smallaxe I miss you. Best wishes for you and your family. Take it easy.

      We’re all minding the store for ye.

      Saw Mrs Terrible May’s speech yesterday, or at least a few minutes of it (all I could stand).

      Looks as if the powers behind her (not the party) have coached her to within an inch and telt her to get over there and suck up big time, buy some stalling time and in that way thwart the Brexit sting and ScotsIndyref2.

      Brexit is no longer red, white and blue, but a watery shade of brown and she’s got it all over her nose. Not sure the party will like it. Is that the sound of knives being sharpened I an hear.

    111. CameronB Brodie says:

      Let’s continue working to improve the health of your disposition, shall we?

      Understanding People: Normativity and Rationalizing Explanation
      There is an influential view of the human mind according to which the way we understand people is radically different from the way we understand the rest of nature. One popular metaphor frequently used to articulate this view is that of a ‘logical space of reasons’, inhabited by thinking subjects who are both subject to, and able to reflectively appreciate, normative constraints that classify thoughts and actions as reasonable or unreasonable in various ways. On this view, personal understanding is essentially normative in a way that empirical understanding of the rest of nature is not. It is therefore impossible to conceive of a fully naturalised science of the human mind insofar as the human mind is understood as the mind of a fully developed person. It is a view of this kind that Alan Millar defends in this book. Millar’s argument draws upon a wide range of recent work in philosophy of mind, epistemology and moral philosophy. It is one of the virtues of the book that it brings together a number of related questions from different areas of philosophy that the academic division of labour increasingly forces professional philosophers to address in artificial (and often unhappy) isolation….

    112. CameronB Brodie says:

      Perhaps it would have helped if I’d posted this first?

      What is the Normativity of Meaning?


      There has been much debate over whether to accept the claim that meaning is normative. One obstacle to making progress in that debate is that it is not always clear what the claim amounts to. In this paper, I try to resolve a dispute between those who advance the claim concerning how it should be understood. More specifically, I critically examine two competing conceptions of the normativity of meaning, rejecting one and defending the other. Though the paper aims to settle a dispute among proponents of the claim that meaning is normative, it should be of interest to those who challenge it. After all, before one takes aim, one’s target needs to be in clear view.

    113. CameronB Brodie says:

      I hope this helps you develop a “sense of community” that is rooted in Scotland, not the ‘One Nation’ ideology/cult.

      The Production of Space
      The book is a search for a reconciliation between mental space (the space of the philosophers) and real space (the physical and social spheres in which we all live). In the course of his exploration, Henri Lefebvre moves from metaphysical and ideological considerations of the meaning of space to its experience in the everyday life of home and city. He seeks, in other words, to bridge the gap between the realms of theory and practice, between the mental and the social, and between philosophy and reality. In doing so, he ranges through art, literature, architecture and economics, and further provides a powerful antidote to the sterile and obfuscatory methods and theories characteristic of much recent continental philosophy.

    114. CameronB Brodie says:

      Still not convinced a re-evalution of your thinking might be in order?

      Normativity and Social Explanation


      Normativity is what gives reasons their force, makes words meaningful, and makes rules and laws binding. Onora O’Neill, in her introduction to Christine Korsgaard’s influential The Sources of Normativity (1996), says “normativity is everywhere.” Normativity is present whenever correctness is present. What normativity is taken to inhere in varies, but in general the normative is taken to be a class of facts, or a class of things accepted to be true, valid, or otherwise indispensable to thought or science. Defenders of such claims argue that normative facts are not empirical facts, not reducible to empirical facts, and, crucially, cannot be explained away by ordinary “scientific” or naturalistic explanations….

      The Sources of Normativity
      Now it is often thought that the normative question poses a special problem for modern moral philosophers. The Modern Scientific World View is supposed to be somehow inimical to ethics, while,indifferent ways, the teleological metaphysics of the the ancient Greek world and the religious systems of medieval Europe seemed friendlier to the subject. It is a little hard to put the point clearly and in a way that does not give rise to obvious objections, but both of these earlier outlooks seem to support the idea that human life has a purpose that is or only can be fulfilled by those who live up to ethical standards and meet moral demands. And this is supposed to be sufficient to establish that ethics is really normative, that its demands on us are justified. They are justified in the name of life’s purpose. The Modern Scientific World View, in depriving us of the idea that the world has a purpose, has taken this justification away.

      Whether this is true or not, the moral philosophy of the modern period can be read as a search for the source of normativity. Philosophers in the modern period have come up with four successive answers to the question of what makes morality normative. In brief, they are these:

      (1) Voluntarism. According to this view ….
      (2) Realism. According to this view ….
      (3) I call the third view “Reflective Endorsement.” This view….
      (4)The Appeal to Autonomy. This kind of argument ….

    115. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @CamB –

      What your last comment seems to be describing is what Orwell referred to as ‘common decency’. So far as I’m aware he never dedicated any significant space or time to attempting a definition of what he understood that to mean, but he used the expression in such a way that he appeared to take it as a ‘given’, i.e. what your extract would perhaps label as ‘normative’.

      This goes to the heart of questions relating to motivation and purpose, and is so personal that it is difficult, nay impossible, to discuss.

      Donna Babington (oor ain Donna) recently tweeted a question: ‘what sparked your interest in political activity?’ (that’s not verbatim, but close) and she was asking for the answer in one tweet. Not easy, but a useful exercise in examining ones own motives. A similar process might be required to answer: ‘What do you understand ‘common decency’ to mean?’ We would have to provide examples, and that’s not easy either. (We just have to remember dudes like Aristotle getting all heavy about ethics and suchlike while being attended on by people who were their actual property.)

      IMHO, this place is at its best and most valuable when it allows people to raise these and similar questions and at least try to answer them. That they’re being raised in very specific socio-historical context makes it all much less abstract and *dry* than it can appear if left in the hands of ‘real’ philosophers.

      Anyway, have a braw Saturday Cameron, and abody else.

      Ye’s are aw pure bams by the way!


    116. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      Cjeers mate, good to see I’m not needlessly polluting space to no positive end. 😉

      Value and Normativity

      Abstract and Keywords

      This chapter discusses the nature of and relation between value and normativity. Words such as “good” and “bad” give expression to value, while words such as “right,” “wrong,” “ought,” and “reason” give expression to normativity. Some philosophers (most notably, but not only, those who subscribe to the fitting-attitude analysis of value) hold the view that value is to be understood in terms of normativity, others (most notably, but not only, those who subscribe to consequentialism) hold the view that normativity is to be understood in terms of value. This chapter examines both views, explaining how each is plausible and yet also problematic.

      Fitting-attitude theories of value

      No Good Fit: Why the Fitting Attitude Analysis of Value Fails

    117. CameronB Brodie says:

      Perhaps your topic of academic study has adversely influenced your perspective?

      Definition of Social Order in Sociology
      Overview and Theoretical Approaches

      Social order is a fundamental concept in sociology that refers to the way that the various components of society—social structures and institutions, social relations, social interaction and behavior, and cultural aspects like norms, beliefs, and values—work together to maintain the status quo.

      Outside sociology people often use the term “social order” to refer a state of stability and consensus that exists when there is an absence of chaos or upheaval….

      social order

      Gender As a Social Structure

      In this article, the author argues that we need to conceptualize gender as a social structure, and by doing so, we can better analyze the ways in which gender is embedded in the individual, interactional, and institutional dimensions of our society. To conceptualize gender as a structure situates gender at the same level of general social significance as the economy and the polity. The author also argues that while concern with intersectionality must continue to be paramount, different structures of inequality have different constructions and perhaps different influential causal mechanisms at any given historical moment. We need to follow a both/and strategy to understand gender structure, race structure, and other structures of inequality as they currently operate while also systematically paying attention to how these axes of domination intersect. Finally, the author suggests we pay more attention to doing research and writing theory with explicit attention to how our work can indeed help transform as well as inform society.

    118. Ghillie says:

      Hey there Smallaxe = )

      Thinking of you xxx


    119. Tinto Chiel says:

      Some pals I met down the pub…

    120. Chick McGregor says:

      Hope you feel better soon smallaxe.

      Here is a video, over 10 years old now, of Project Bona Fide
      one of the acts we had for the 2nd Independence First rally.
      They were an Edinburgh reggae band.

      The second number ‘Soldier’ the inclusion of William Wallace on the list of Freedom fighters is down to me and is not on their record.

    121. Paula Rose says:

      Hi Darlings – I have to attend a meeting on October the 10th in Glasgow anyone prepared to sleep on the sofa so that I can get a decent night’s sleep?

    122. CameronB Brodie says:

      @David Torrance
      Got any response to social science and theory in your Big Book of ‘One Nation’ pish?

      Fatboy Slim – Weapon Of Choice

    123. Chas Anderson200 says:

      Wings night out.
      Just catching up after a busy few days and notice a night out
      is in the offing. I will definitely be there subject to any
      unplanned grandpappy duties which may arise. Any date is do-able although an east coast venue(Fife or Dundee?) is preferable.
      As per the do in Waxy’s last year I have a lovely certificated bottle of whisky for the raffle.

    124. Alex Clark says:

      @Chas Anderson200

      That makes a dozen that say they would be attending, thinking was for 2nd weekend in November in Broughty Ferry but things are on hold right now as this may clash with another night around the same time that was planned previously.

      Hang fire and all will be clear in the next week or so. Thanks all.

    125. Chas Anderson200 says:

      Thanks Alex.

    126. CameronB Brodie says:

      Alexy’s Theory of Constitutional Rights and the Problem of Judicial Review
      In A Theory of Constitutional Rights Robert Alexy provides an account of the structure and domain of constitutional rights. The core claim relating to the structure of rights is that constitutional rights are principles and that proportionality analysis is necessarily at the heart of reasoning about what principles require in real contexts. The core claim relating to the proper domain or scope of rights is that there are good grounds for recognizing a general right to liberty and a general right to equality. A conception of rights that shares these two features defines the ‘Rationalist Human Rights Paradigm’ (RHRP). This chapter focuses on the following question: if rights do have the structure and occupy the domain that Alexy suggests, what is the justification for courts setting aside legislation in the name of adjudicating rights? That question is tied to the classical chestnut of an issue that is the legitimacy of judicial review. But it becomes more focused and specific when tied to the particular theory of rights that Alexy defends. The structure of a theory of rights has direct implications for the understanding of the practice of judicial review. What then are the specific problems and best justifications of a practice of judicial review that embraces the RHRP?

      Group Rights in Comparative Constitutional Law: Culture, Economics, or Political Power?

      Approaches to Political Theory: Normative and Empirical

    127. CameronB Brodie says:

      Human Rights, Group Rights, and Peoples’ Right
      Can a right borne by a group be a human right? For some analysts, the answer is obviously, “No.”‘ They argue that human rights are the rights of human beings and, self-evidently, each human being is an individual being. Groups may have rights of some sort, but, whatever those rights might be, they cannot be human rights. Human rights must be rights borne by human individuals.

      Other analysts, unimpressed by that simple logic, insist that human rights can take collective as well as individual forms.2 They argue that much of what is fundamentally important to human beings relates to “goods” and “bads” that people experience collectively rather than individually: if we insist that human rights must be rights that people can hold only as independent individuals, our conception of human rights will not match the social reality of the human condition.

      Group Rights

      Individual and group rights in a democracy


      The decade of the 1970s is experiencing an uneasy equilibrium among three sets of rights—those of the individual, of heretofore disadvantaged groups, and of social institutions designed to serve a postindustrial society. Conflicts over rights become settled, balancing these three sets of rights. No one of them has been chosen for preference by American society.

      The rights of the individual at present favor the sociopolitical status quo. Those individuals who wage a successful campaign for their rights tend to be content with what they can achieve in the present socioeconomic order. The rights of groups which have been disadvantaged can best be secured by sociopolitical changes, sponsored and promoted by change-oriented political movements—women’s liberation, black power, La Raza, the American Indian Movement. Though not necessarily on the political left, these movements are “radical” in that they demand a fairly sharp change in the distribution of power among various groups and a consequent reduction of power for the male-dominated white middle class. The rights of institutions are the rights and obligations to work for efficiency and quality to secure a dynamic democratic society. Individual rights and group rights are brought into a tolerable balance when priority is given to the maintenance of efficient educational and political institutions which fit democratic goals.

    128. Betty Boop says:

      @ CameronB

      Trying to keep up a bit. With your latest posts on human rights, group rights, etc., I’m now sidetracked and delving into UNPO (Unrepresented Nations & Peoples Organisation.

      Interesting stuff – keep it coming 🙂

    129. CameronB Brodie says:

      Betty Boop
      Thanks, I’ve got tonnes more like that but I think I’m perhaps posting a bit too much and too quickly (my last post re. Media Theory hasn’t appeared). I’ll try again later. 😉

    130. Jock Scot says:

      Wings night out or alternative. I remember stuff being discussed on Saturday but will be somewhere if I can.

    131. Alex Clark says:

      @Jock Scot

      Glad to hear it, anytime we all spend together is certain to be a good time. Things are still in the mix it seems and I’m awaiting info on further developments.

      Good to see you back on Off Topic again, mind no be a stranger 🙂

    132. William Wallace says:


      Hint taken. 🙂

    133. CameronB Brodie says:

      William Wallace
      Well, go on then, show us your party piece. 🙂

    134. William Wallace says:

      @ CamB

      Fir my next trick, I am gonna metamorphosise fae a drunken, halfwitted, buffoon like slug into a philosophising, articulate, enlightened and educated butterfly 🙂

      Pished of course 🙂

    135. CameronB Brodie says:

      William Wallace
      Again? Never! 😉

      Is it possible to gain an insight into taxonomy and epistemology through the medium of punk rock? 🙂

      Sorry for teasing RN and I wasn’t meaning to interrogate you in a hostile manner re. your shock over my training. I was genuinely curious.

      Johnny Ramone – Bad Reputation

    136. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m not sure if I managed to get the essence of my point across – misnaming a thing can lead to confusion. 🙂

      The Politics of Ontology: Anthropological Positions
      At first blush, “ontology” and “politics” make strange bedfellows. Ontology evokes essence, while politics, as modern, democratic, multiculturalist citizens tend to understand it, is about debunking essences and affirming in their stead the world-making capacities of human collectives. Yet this notion of a social construction of reality itself instantiates a particular ontology, and a powerful one at that—and here we also mean politically powerful. Still, as anthropologists we are attuned to the “powers of the weak”—to the many complex connections, some of them crucially negative, between power differences (politics) and the powers of difference (ontology).

      The Ontological Turn
      Following the recent release of The Ontological Turn: An Anthropological Exposition, we interview the book’s authors, Martin Holbraad and Morten Axel Pedersen, to find out more…

      A reader’s guide to the “ontological turn” – Part 1

    137. CameronB Brodie says:

      @BBC in Scotland
      Try as hard as you might, Scots who are patriotic to the nation of Scotland, know we are not Nazis. Doesn’t your charter require you to be honest, accurate and impartial. I think your latest slur has almost certainly outed the BBC in Scotland as being in-step with London and the New Right, even to the less observant among us.

      Down with this sort of thing!

      Social Justice: The Musical – “Punch a Nazi” (ft. Rucka Rucka Ali)

    138. CameronB Brodie says:

      @BBC in Scotland
      Get a grip, you’re publicly funded!

      What is social justice?

      Using a social justice lens helps organizations to reframe issues generally viewed as individual in origin to include broader social, political, economic, and cultural understandings. In the following excerpt from the Encyclopedia of Social Work, Janet L. Finn and Maxine Jacobson explore the meanings and principles of social justice—a term which at times can be rather elusive and unclear in its applications.

      Social Justice: 7 Theories of Social Justice – Explained!

      Social Justice and Rawls’ Difference Principle

    139. CameronB Brodie says:

      @BBC in Scotland
      It appears that supporting the ‘One Nation’ cult is your top priority.

      Module 2: Unit 11 : Media Regulation

      2.1 Normative media theory

      Media theory refers to the complex of social-political-philosophical principles which organize ideas about the relationship between media and society. Within this is a type of theory called `normative theory’, which is concerned with what the media ought to be doing in society rather than what they actually do. In general, the dominant ideas about the obligations of mass media will be consistent with other values and arrangements in a given society. According to Siebert et al (1956) in their book Four Theories of the Press, “the press takes on the form and coloration of the social and political structures within which it operates” (pp.1-2). The press and other media, in their view, will reflect the “basic beliefs and assumptions that the society holds”. In the western liberal tradition, this refers to matters such as freedom, equality before the law, social solidarity and cohesion, cultural diversity, active participation, and social responsibility. Different cultures may have different principles and priorities.

      Communication Theory
      All About Theories for Communication.
      Authoritarian Theory

      Normativity and the Will: Selected Essays on Moral Psychology and Practical Reason
      In this excellent collection of essays, most of which date since his 1996 book, Responsibility and the Moral Sentiments, R. Jay Wallace develops the moral psychology behind his Strawsonian account of moral responsibility as depending on our practices of holding people morally accountable. While several of the essays develop the conceptions of human agency and autonomy introduced in sections 3.1 and 5.2 of Responsibility and the Moral Sentiments; there are important innovations in his account of moral freedom and autonomy and a more detailed critique of Humean views.

    140. CameronB Brodie says:

      Re. the hypocrisy of BLiS__D. Social justice is unobtainable without the respect of universal human rights. This is the mapped path to universal inclusiveness, social solidarity and a dignified future for humanity, according to the United Nations anyway. BLiS___d have the appearance of rather dim “national socialists”, frankly, and their nation is not Scotland.

      Lee Perry and The Upsetters – Justice To The People

    141. Quinie frae Angus says:

      Thanks a’body for the warm welcome back to the body o’ the Kirk.

      CameronB….I will need to read and digest all of that another time! But I will indeed.

      Alex, you’re doing us proud organising this, wherever and whenever it takes place. Thank you.

    142. CameronB Brodie says:

      Quinie frae Angus
      There’s a fair whack to get through, so hopefully you’ll not feel I’ve wasted your time.

    143. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Quinie.

      Back again, iye? Did you see what I did to the video?

      Hi peeps.

      We can’t allow those people, you know, “THOSE PEOPLE”, to have the last word on WOS pages…

    144. cearc says:

      Hiya, Quinie,

      Waves cheerily…

    145. William Wallace says:

      Here’s a wee challenge fir yiz ah aff topic
      Afore abodies thinking becomes quite myopic
      a stanza, a couplet or jist free style converse
      but each o yiz hiv tae write a verse

      Yiv got tae reference the poet afore ye
      an kerry on the poem they wrote thee
      to get wi started well here’s meh text
      let yir inner poet oot, wha’s up next?? 🙂

    146. CameronB Brodie says:

      Reluctant Nationalist
      I wouldn’t have minded if you had made any noticeable effort to enlighten the debate.

      Book Review: The Moral Dimensions of Empathy: Limits and Applications on Ethical Theory and Practice, by Julinna C. Oxley

      The idea of empathy is not new, but it has gained greater prominence in the scene of education in recent years. The word is commonly heard in a variety of contexts in schools that range from behaviour management programmes, circle time, and philosophy for children, to more general topics on multiculturalism, moral or religious education. Despite its diverse application, its aim is clear: to feel what others feel, to address conflict constructively, and to promote the morally good life. The use of the term is, however, by no means consistent. Therefore, this recent exploration into the idea of empathy and its connections to morality is very much welcomed.

      Neuroscience of Morality

      Making lawyers moral? Ethical codes and moral character

    147. William Wallace says:

      @ CamB

      That disnae rhyme 😉

    148. CameronB Brodie says:

      William Wallace
      Sorry William, I’m crap at rhyming and I’m no really in the mood. 😉

      Reluctant Nationalist
      Of course, ethical approaches to human development and inclusive social integration, are an anathema to the New Right. No?


      This article notes that while ethics is increasingly talked of in foreign policy, it remains a blind-spot for FPA. It argues that this must be rectified through a critical approach which conceptualises foreign policy as ethics. The first section examines how even constructivist approaches, which are highly attuned to the intersubjective sphere, still generally avoid dealing with morality. The second section looks at the possibilities and limits of one piece of constructivist theorizing that explores the translation of morality into foreign policy via ‘norms’. This demonstrates the problems that a constructivist account, with its tendency toward explanatory description without evaluation, will always face. The final section argues, through an examination of EU foreign policy (from 1999-2004) and its innovative use of ‘hospitality’, that FPA must critically reassess the value of the norms and principles by which foreign policy operates in order to suggest potentially more ethical modes of encounter.

      Policy and Practice
      A Development Education Review
      Peace studies and social change: The role of ethics and human agency

      Moral Obligations To Refugees

    149. William Wallace says:

      Well, here’s mah message Cameron Brodie
      Fae the schemes mah friend, the Douglas Toddy
      The gemme’s afoot so don’t ignore me
      giz a verse or twa and tell yir story. 😉

    150. CameronB Brodie says:

      William Wallace
      When I were a lad I played for the Douglas
      Following spells at Broughty Athletic and Downfield
      Later, I was poached by the Dee Club
      And got played totaly out of the game by a pop-star fanny of a half-back

      End. 🙂

    151. William Wallace says:

      The Dee club wiz a club eh played fir
      And fir the Astoria did eh box
      A true Dundonian eh’ll never leave her
      Unto myself – a paradox 😉

    152. Chick McGregor says:

      Great toon o Dundee ye hiv been transformit
      Yer verra soul his been reformit
      Whither bae smeddum or design
      Yer future noo looks michty fine.

      Nae mair the mills nar marmalade
      And languishes yer screivin trade
      Bit innovations noo yer game
      And artully ye’ve made yer claim

      Ye micht hae lost yer whaling decks
      Bit harbour noo mair hailsome techs
      The toon that geid the biggest Aye
      Climbs Phoenix-like intae the sky

      Ye michtna hiv thrice letter jay
      Tae welcome fowk intae the Tay
      Bit mony’ll come tae spy the chairm
      O a toon renewed, lang’s ma airm.

    153. Chick McGregor says:

      as lang’s ma airm

      also innovation’s

    154. David says:

      Dundonian discourse
      in stanza and verse
      Should give Off-Topic
      A kick up the erse.

      Ah’m obliged to say
      Wallace’s idea’s a brammer
      Jist keep yer eyes peeled
      Fir the Rev’s BIG HAMMER!


      Paisley has got
      some secret Tories
      Who want tae restore
      Feegie’s “past glories”.

      But the voters said naw
      Backing Mhairi and Gav
      She’s got the words
      He’s got the suave.

    155. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Btrian Montieth
      Thanks for confirming your clown status. By undermining the concept of global human rights, you align yourself with the New Right. IMHO, you’re clearly not a moderate individual and you appear not to appreciate the concepts of human “liberty” and “equality”. You’re still stuck in the age of colonial imperialism, old chap.


      Human Rights are Universal Rights Shared by All Mankind

      When the world human rights conference was convened in Vienna in 1993, the advanced nations asserted that “human rights are a universal concept applicable to the whole of mankind,” but the developing nations opposed this position, saying “the concept of human rights varies by region.” For historical events which caused considerable progress in human rights, one could
      men­tion the American Revolution and the French Revolution in the 18th century.

    156. yesindyref2 says:

      The Tay the Tay the Silvery Tay
      Goes down to the sea and comes back the same way

    157. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      The version I remember was,

      The Tay, the Tay, the silvery Tay.
      It flows from Perth to Dundee, every day.

      Then, of course, the MockGonanagall,
      The doos flee in an’ oot, and roonaboot,
      The Albert Institute.

      Speaking of which…
      Around 15-20 years ago,, there were a great number of starlings, who seemed to regard the museum building as ‘home’. You would see them flying about in the early evening, getting their exercise in before settling for the night.

      There was also, around the same time, a fair old population of them at Ninewells hospital. These ones were rather gallus and would hop between your feet, whilst you were outside at the smoking area (remember that?), looking for crumbs. They disappeared as well, for some reason.

      The major restoration work took place at the museum and the starlings disappeared from there as well. I often wondered where they’d gone.

      Onnyhoo, around 3 or 4 years ago, I took a drive down by Riverside one evening after work and parked at the railway station cafe. And what did I find? Among the various species of gulls hingin’ aroon’ there, were a number of starlings. Looks like they’ve taken a taste for the ‘seaside’…

    158. yesindyref2 says:

      Favourite poet probably, along with Burns. Not that I’m into poetry really.

      Yes, there’s a lot of MockGonanagall around, I think that was one.

    159. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @William Wallace –

      Ah once knew a lass fae Dundee,
      But she wisny too happy wi me
      Cause she aye wanted kissed
      Even when ah wis aw tired an emotional
      An that’s how we split up
      So it is.


    160. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      O dearie me. McGonagall. It must have been coming up to a holiday, but one time “out of the blue” our English teacher at school – one of the profession’s finest – read out, nay declaimed, one of the Dundee (alleged) Bard’s great works, with which up to that point I was entirely unfamiliar. I literally laughed so much I cried.

      Bless them both!

    161. Cactus says:

      Here’s one fur ye William Wallace ~ (hope ah get away wae this)

      “She will come
      He will follow
      She will be SO sure tae swallow”

      Me, circa 2015.


    162. Cactus says:


      “He will come
      She will follow
      She will be SO sure tae swallow”

      Might have been the original, who knows…

      Either way, tis all about a happy ending.

      Work that one out Wingers! 😉

    163. CameronB Brodie says:

      I wouldn’t want folk to think I’m a petty, under-educated, grievance-monkey, so here’s one for Mr. Montieth and all like-minded Yoonatics. 🙂

      Spongebob Squarepants – Doing The Sponge

    164. Cactus says:

      Aweright CameronB Brodie ~

      Good tae see ye back on regular duty bud.

      I’ll go SO far as saying fucking excellent!

      Cheers got ma back bro.

      Wednesday nite.

    165. CameronB Brodie says:

      If the BritNats actually had a non-ideological argument that could be justified empirically*, ethically and against social-sustainability criteria, I doubt you would be hearing much from me. As it is though, all they have is normative bias and bigotry, so it’s a bit like shooting fish in a barrel mate.

      * not KH’s magical economics, more Scotland is a nation awash with natural resources. Another might be England is a different country to Scotland. Or another, that Britain was created through a political ‘union’ that was established through political and economic force, more than three centuries before the plebs got a taste of democracy.

      Next vote will be Yes mate, that’s my instinct. 😉

    166. Cactus says:

      Aye I concur wae ye Cameron ~

      Let Scotland be iScotland.

      Yes is natural.

      A normal IC.

      Ola Ole!

      ot rules.

    167. Cactus says:

      Cheers on the hour of ’17.


    168. Cactus says:

      Wishin ye well Smallaxe bro ~

      Ahm due tae visit ye…

      When you good?

      I am.

    169. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Dave the Whig
      If you wish for a neo-enlightenment, clue yourself up on “ethical normative practice”. Hint – you don’t appear to have much of a clue about what “liberty” entails.

    170. CameronB Brodie says:

      Here’s a little something for those wishing to address social injustices, such as structural poverty.

      Rethinking Development from a Postcolonial Perspective

      In his book, Outlines of a Historical View of the Progress of the Human Mind, the enlightened philosopher Antoine-Nicolas de Condorcet (1796, pp. 251-256) pointed out:

      “Our hopes for the future condition of the human race can be subsumed under three important heads: the abolition of inequality between nations, the progress of equality within each nation, and the true perfection of mankind. Will all nations one day attain that state of civilization which the most enlightened, the freest and the least burdened by prejudices, such as the French and the Anglo-American […] have attained already? Will the vast gulf that separates these peoples from the slavery of nations under the rule of monarchs, from the barbarism of African tribes, from the ignorance of savages, little by little disappear? These immense countries […] to arrive at civilization, appear only to wait till we shall furnish them with the means; and, who, treated as brothers by Europeans, would instantly become their friends and disciples.”

      Postcolonialism, Power, and ‘the Poor’: What Will Eliminate Global Poverty?

      A Postcolonial Approach to Social Science?

    171. CameronB Brodie says:

      The Case for a Postcolonial Approach to the Study of Politics


      Postcolonialism is now an extensive body of knowledge that draws on Edward Said’s Orientalism, the Subaltern Studies collective, and other critical anti-colonial scholarship. While postcolonial scholars have significantly shaped humanistic disciplines such as history, comparative literature, and anthropology, their impact on political science has been limited. The resistance to postcolonialism is strongly associated with the perpetuation of Eurocentric perspectives on ex-colonial territories. Dominant theories of democracy and civil wars, for example, remain trapped in outdated Eurocentric theory that sheds scarcely any light on postcolonial realities. The case for a postcolonial approach to the study of politics is thus stronger than ever before. Such an approach calls for a sustained engagement with specific non-Western contexts as well as an openness to anthropological, historical, and area studies knowledge about them. Decolonizing knowledge within political science, in sum, ought to be seen as part of a wider project of decentering the discipline by undermining what is seen today as “mainstream.”

      Political Theories of Decolonization Postcolonialism and the Problem of Foundations

      What Is Comparative Political Theory?


      This paper examines what is involved in using comparative methods within political theory and whether there should be a comparative political theory subfield. It argues that political theory consists of multiple kinds of activities that are either primarily “scholarly” or “engaged.” It is easy to imagine how scholarly forms of political theory can be, and have been, comparative. The paper critiques (not rejects) existing calls for the creation of a comparative political theory subfield focused on the study of non-Western texts. Comparative political theory needs to explain why it is not merely expanding the canon to include non-Western texts and why a certain non-Western text is “alien,” thus justifying the moniker comparative. Ten discrete theses are presented that argue that the strongest warrant for an engaged comparative political theory is the first-order evaluation of the implication of the contestations of norms, values, and principles between distinct and coherent doctrines of thought.

    172. CameronB Brodie says:

      @J.K. Rowling
      As you appear to seek social justice, might I suggest you forget all that you think you know, and start again from scratch. Presently, your thinking appears to be bound up in colonial assumptions and racial prejudices embedded in Britain’s political identity. You support Scotland’s democratic deficit and England’s exploitative abuse of Scotland’s natural resources.

      One can’t be an agent for progressive social change if one holds to the values you wish to change. It’s not too late for you to support liberty, equality and social justice for Scotland. All it takes is an open heart and mind.

      Postcolonialism and Political Theory
      Postcolonialism and Political Theory explores the intersection between the political and the postcolonial through an engagement with, critique of, and challenge to some of the prevalent, restrictive tenets and frameworks of Western political and social thought. It is a response to the call by postcolonial studies, as well as to the urgent need within world politics, to turn towards a multiplicity_largely excluded from globally dominant discourses of community, subjectivity, power and prosperity_constituted by otherness, radical alterity, or subordination to the newly reconsolidated West. The book offers a diverse range of essays that re-examine and open the boundaries of political and cultural modernity’s historical domain; that look at how the racialized and gendered and cultured subject visualizes the social from elsewhere; that critique the limits of postcolonial theory and its claim to celebrate diversity; and that complicate the notion of postcolonial politics within settler societies that continue to practice exile of the indigenous. Postcolonialism and Political Theory is an ideal book for graduate and advanced undergraduate level study and for those working both disciplinarily and interdisciplinarily, both inside and outside academia.

    173. CameronB Brodie says:

      @J.K. Rowling
      Free thinking Scots do not appreciate being treated as “Children of Ham”.

      Are Black People Cursed? The Curse of Ham

      Because Ham was the father of black people, and because he and his descendants were cursed to be slaves because of his sin against Noah, some Christians said, “Africans and their descendants are destined to be servants, and should accept their status as slaves in fulfillment of biblical prophecy.” (4)

    174. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      I see we’re doing poetry tonight so I started a couple. Problem is I’ll have to finish them at some point. They tend to lurk on my computer annoying me till I do so.

      Here we go

      The Union Jack is a wondrous thing
      Makes some folks cry,some folks sing
      But as we danced and sang with Harry Lauder
      It came for our sons for cannon fodder


      The wondrous thing aboot a big Glesga doll
      Eating her chips pressed agin the wall

      Doesn’t scan quite right. Work to do.
      I hope to have Lesley Riddoch for af ew minutes tomorrow night on my Roundabout Show at 7pm on Argyll Independent Radio

    175. CameronB Brodie says:

      How Can Decision Making Be Improved?
      The optimal moment to address the question of how to improve human decision making has arrived. Thanks to fifty years of research by judgment and decision making scholars, psychologists have developed a detailed picture of the ways in which human judgment is bounded. This paper argues that the time has come to focus attention on the search for strategies that will improve bounded judgment because decision making errors are costly and are growing more costly, decision makers are receptive, and academic insights are sure to follow from research on improvement. In addition to calling for research on improvement strategies, this paper organizes the existing literature pertaining to improvement strategies, highlighting promising directions for future research.

      Bounded rationality

      Unbounded Rationality & Its Consequences

    176. K1 says:

      Many have advocated buying produce from Lidl/Aldi, a part of that being to do with packaging having the saltire on it. Check out the Guardian’s main story about the second largest ‘producer’ of chicken in the UK. In the film which shows the flaunting of just about all safety aspects including changing of ‘use by’ dates, altering of ‘source’ where chickens have been slaughtered (which is an essential necessity in terms of food scares) and the repackaging of returned chicken.

      In the clip they show empty Lidl packaging with the saltire on it, i.e. it’s for Lidl in Scottish branches, at the end of the line of production they had removed these returned Lidl contents and placed them in Tesco’s ‘Willow’ brand packaging, with new ‘use by dates’.

      If they are doing it with one brand they are doing it with all of them. Which means every single piece of chicken being sold in all the big supermarkets are in fact suspect. Don’t trust the labels, don’t trust the packaging and do trust that if there is a corner to cut these utter bastards will do it. They care nothing about our safety or our health.

      There is no such thing as ‘Lidl’ chicken or Lidl and Aldi or Tesco or M&S. There is only a corrupt profit making industry wherein they will lie and kill to make a profit and they don’t care how they do it. They have conned people for years with this shit and they are now doing it on an industrial scale. No fucking wonder people are getting sicker and sicker with the food we are being sold.

      Buyer Beware.

      They have successfully destroyed the human food chain.

    177. Chick McGregor says:

      Time for some de Bono-esque, idea associative brain storming (with a smile)

      Nick Robinson. Robinson?, Robinson?.

      Swiss Family Robinson, Swizz Families Robinson

      Robinson Cruso, Robinson Untrueso

      Survival on Desert Islands, Bear Grylls

      Celebrity TV, Silly Berty TV

      OK, thaty should be enough for a potential solution kernel, let’s go with that.

      What solution does that suggest?

      Got it.

      We get Bear Grylls to persuade all Westminster ‘celebrity’ politicians and BBC ‘celebrity’ journalists that the only way they can recover their shattered credibility is to do a televised survival stint on an island of his choosing.

      Except that, like the one in the Hebrides, it doesn’t get televised and there is no voting off the island.

      Solution found. Good old de Bono.

      Or alternatively, the viewing public, could vote them ON to ‘Silly Berty Island’ to increase viewer satisfaction levels.

    178. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Lesley Riddoch is a the Burgh hall in Dunoon tonight expressing her thoughts about a possible Nordic future for Scotland and then over for a chat to the Forward Shop

      I hope to have her on my Roundabout show for a minute or two on the online Argyll Independent Radio sometime after 7 PM.

    179. Ruglonian says:

      Hey folks, I’m in for whatever date you want to go for, for the next do!
      My preference would be asap, as there’s a few interesting potential projects that I’d like to discuss 😀

      What’s the deal with the location? Is it public transport friendly or are we looking at an overnighter?

    180. Fred says:

      Don’t buy processed chicken, buy a whole one & save cash!

    181. Jock Scot says:

      Cheers Alex.
      Appreciate that. Hopefully, ‘Now is the time’ so hope to make regular contributions.

    182. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry Rev., I got caught up in the conversation.


      IMHO, the independence movement needs to understand itself better, if it hopes to stop the BBC and the BUM linking us with fasist wanks.

      Cultural nationalism
      Cultural nationalism reflects national identity defined by a shared sense of cultural traditions.

      Cultural nationalism is most clearly identified via symbols of national pride. This may be contrasted with the ascribed characteristics surrounding race and ethnicity. In ideological terms, cultural nationalism thereby adopts a moderate stance. It is more inclusive in tone and character than the belligerent approach of ethnic nationalism. That said, cultural nationalism is of a more traditional and homogenous character than the diversity and choice inherent within the ideology of liberal nationalism. Cultural nationalists such as Johann Gottfried von Herder take up an intermediate position between ethnic nationalism and liberal nationalism…

      Cultural Nationalism in India

      Civic Nationalism & Ethnic Nationalism

    183. Tinto Chiel says:

      And make soup, Fred, like my chicken and rice broth.

      It’s pretty fowl.


    184. CameronB Brodie says:

      P.S. I see Cultural nationalism as both a powerful string in our bow and as a means to an end.

    185. Fred says:

      Cockaleekie Tinto? pass the Tena pads!

    186. Fred says:

      Tinto, U know how it would upset Rock if U gave us the recipe, so shoot Bro!

      Hope U have the garlic therein?

    187. Tinto Chiel says:

      I’m too young and lovely, Fred, for those, thanks.

      Besides, they’re too chewy and add little flavour.

    188. Tinto Chiel says:

      I’ve gone off garlic, Fred, actually. I hate the smell of it now off garlic-eaters, although wild garlic soup is nice in the spring. Think it’s an age thing…..

      Annoy Rock with my recipe? simplicity itself:

      Stock from boiled chicken, grated and chopped carrots, finely-chopped onion chopped leeks, basmati rice, palt and sepper.

      Not as good as Nana’s but ok with oatcakes.

    189. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @K1 –

      Ah hear ye.

    190. William Wallace says:

      Dinnae ken if any of you lads/lasses dae a bit o gaming or what but, eh like meh futba gemmes. Bought Fifa 18 the day and eh aywiz play wi Scotland every year in online seasons mode.

      Last years Fifa had a lot of saltires wi the royal banner through it but the year afore was mainly proper saltires. This year (ah meh matches so far have been away gemmes) eh hiv no seen a single saltire in the crowd.

      Dinnae ken if we are getting airbrushed oot o history here or what.

    191. William Wallace says:

      @ K1

      Eh might hiv been guilty o advocating Lidls as an alternative to the big players in the past like but, I firmly believe that we need to return to small scale, sustainable and ethical food production.

      Supporting small scale farmers and local allotment producers is the way forward for an independent Scotland IMHO.

    192. CameronB Brodie says:

      Can I suggest folk bookmark this site?

      Anti / Post-colonialism

      Those political movements opposed to colonial rule – and wish to return governance of that nation back to the native population – are known as anti (or post)-colonialists.

      They claim that indigenous populations should be recognised as nations and therefore able to express their own self-determination. In doing so, they may throw off the shackles of imperialist rule and (re)gain a sense of national pride and purpose. Such movements also seek to analyse and explain the cultural legacy of colonialism and imperial rule. This entails an emphasis upon the consequences of economic exploitation upon the oppressed, which may in turn offer a challenge to the established narrative imposed by the colonial power….

    193. cearc says:

      Naught like a nice chook fresh from gorging on elderberries with a wee sauce of the same berries.

      Ruglonian, another one on the list! Look forward to seeing you.

    194. William Wallace says:

      @ CamB

      It still disnae rhyme. 🙂

      Nae offence bud cause it’s really interesting and ah that but, believe it or no, eh hiv looked into post-colonialism. Pished of course. 🙂

      Sometimes the academic nature of a particular subject loses relevance in a modern and evolving context.

      Marxist claims that nations are a false consciousness designed by our colonial overlords for example. Pile of shite right? Eh feel Scottish, therefore I am. Naebody designed that state of being fir me, except me. 🙂 😉

    195. CameronB Brodie says:

      William Wallace
      I told you I can’t rhyme and none taken William. Post-colonialism is a pretty large body of thought that has had a significant impact on the humanities and global politics. Also, not all the readers are paradoxes fae Dundee. 🙂

    196. Ruglonian says:

      Cheers Cearc, looking forward to seeing you again too, it’s been ages!
      Hopefully the whole gang will make it along to this one and a lurker or two of course, our Paula needs a new face to spoil 🙂

    197. William Wallace says:

      If eh can adapt tae yir philosophical weys then you can pit a wee ditty the gither. 😉 Are yi scared o big bad Stu’s hammers lol? 🙂

    198. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m not sure if I’ve reached peak-flow yet, frankly. 🙂

      I wonder of David Torrance has anything to say about the post-colonial?

      Post colonial Theory: “Nationalism” and “Imperialism”

      Making and Protecting the Nation in Postcolonial and Postcommunist States
      II. Postcolonial Nationalism

      W.B. Yeats: Irish Nationalism and Post-Colonial Theory

    199. CameronB Brodie says:

      William Wallace
      Gonnae no? I’ll get a beamer. 🙂

    200. William Wallace says:

      @ Cam B

      How? 🙂

    201. CameronB Brodie says:

      William Wallace
      Will this do you?
      “And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by” – Captain James T Kirk

    202. William Wallace says:

      @ Cam B

      Did you miss the chewing the fat reference there? I thought you were setting me up to finish it aff.

    203. CamernoB Brodie says:

      William Wallace

    204. Fred says:

      Sounds braw Tinto!

    205. CameronB Brodie says:

      Neil Oliver appointed as president of Scotland’s National Trust? The Yoon has BritNat mince for brains. Someone’s having a fucking laugh at the expense of Scotland’s cultural heritage.

      Anthropology and Post-Colonial Thought: The Paradoxical Quest for Positionality
      The class, race, culture and gender assumptions, beliefs, and behaviors of the researcher her/himself [must] be placed within the frame of the picture that she/he attempts to paint (Harding 1987: 9)

      Postcolonial Europe?
      Modernity, Imperialism and Heritage in the EU

      This paper sets out from the acknowledgement of the joint history of modernity and eurocentrism which also coincided with the rise of European imperialism and the birth of heritage. It is this relationship between modernity, imperialism and heritage that makes the combination of postcolonial studies and critical heritage studies a potent theoretical starting point. Within this paper, I will shortly outline the potential gains of using insights from postcolonial theory to study the current construction of Europeanness in the EU’s cultural heritage initiatives1.

      Clarifying the critical in critical heritage studies


      This paper considers the term critical in the unfolding formulation of critical heritage studies. It argues for a shift in emphasis from the subject of our effort to the object of attention, in other words focusing primarily on the critical issues that face the world today, the larger issues that bear upon and extend outwards from heritage. To that end, the paper presents two key directions. It suggests much is to be gained from tackling the uneasy relationship that currently exists between social science and humanities-based approaches to heritage and the professional conservation sector oriented by a scientistic materialism. Second, there is a need for heritage studies to account for its relationship to today’s regional and global transformations by developing post-western understandings of culture, history and heritage and the socio-political forces that actualise them.

    206. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Neil Oliver
      Do you feel the hand of Scotland’s BritNat destiny on your shoulder?

      Writing Cultural History in Colonial and Postcolonial India
      During the colonial period in India, English historians portrayed the British conquest and domination of India as the realization of a historic destiny, absorbing the particular history of India into the overarching narrative of the Empire. When Indian scholars educated in the British system began to write their own histories of the period, they had to struggle to reclaim their past and to make the Indian people the subject of their history…

    207. William Wallace says:

      @ CamB

      “Gonnae No”

      How? 🙂

      Apologies if I was a bit rude last night. Your links are certainly interesting but, a little heavy going at times trying to wade through them.

    208. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Neil Oliver
      I’m stunned that you were considered an ethical selection, though I suppose that’s Yoon normativity for you. Can you honestly claim that your politics don’t undermine the principle of universal human rights?

      Critical Approaches to Heritage Studies

      Who controls heritage? What is the role of heritage in the constructed narratives of nationalism? How is heritage being used as a cultural practice to shape the discourses on nation-building and nation-branding? The process of heritage-making entails various forms of conflict over the definition, ownership, and use of cultural attributes. Originally a concept coined by the nation-state, heritage has become the object of intellectual reclamation by academics, activists and associations. Institutional and non-institutional social actors in Asia and in Europe are increasingly involved in debating the legitimacy as well as the need to “safeguard” different expressions of heritage. The course will explore the genesis and working practices of international heritage administration, charters and conventions. Furthermore, the social impact of heritage themes such as diaspora, ethnicity, and nationalism will be analysed. We will also elaborate on the concepts of “collective” and “social” memory. Herewith, we will pay special attention to the museum as a facilitating actor in the process of understanding and showcasing cultural identity. You will review case studies of tangible and intangible heritage from Europe and Asia to see how heritage has taken on new and sometimes unintended meanings in the midst of social change, asserting religious identity and political upheaval. You will be encouraged to produce your own case studies and approach heritage as a growing interdisciplinary field.

      Identity, Nationalism, and Cultural Heritage under Siege

      Reframing Heritage as Movement!/menu/standard/file/List%20of%20Abstracts%20Heritage%20as%20Movement%20Sept%2026.pdf

    209. CameronB Brodie says:

      William Wallace
      Gonnae No. 🙂

    210. William Wallace says:

      @ CamB

      How? 😉

    211. CameronB Brodie says:

      William Wallace
      Have I taken that too far? 🙂

    212. William Wallace says:

      @ CamB

      Oooooohhhhh the banter 😉

    213. Chick McGregor says:

      Set phasors tae malky.

    214. CameronB Brodie says:

      Still not a patch on other patter-merchants among us, William.

      Hope you’re well Smallaxe.

      Trojan presents Roots

    215. William Wallace says:

      @ CamB

      Eh ken. Just trying to lighten the mood and keep Aff-Topic trundling alang. There are better comedians on here fir sure.

      Ditto on the smallaxe comment. Haste ye back Sma.

    216. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m trying not to be too dry and I’m not knocking your patter William. Anyway, back to yoonatics spraffin’ mince.

      Re. Neil Oliver and authentic Scottish identity.

    217. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Scottish National Trust
      Your practice is appalling, frankly!

      Ethical Relativism
      The Problem of Relativism: What one society considers Right, another Society considers Wrong. Therefore, RIGHT AND WRONG are RELATIVE to a PARTICULAR SOCIETY. Here we need to be aware of two things:

      (1) Confusing “harmless conventions” (The British drive on the left side of the road) with “harmful practices” (Clitorectomy is customary among the Somali).

      (2) Even if “moralities” may differ from society to society, it need not follow that Morality Itself is relative — for there is a further distinction between CULTURAL (“descriptive”) RELATIVISM and NORMATIVE (“Ethical”) RELATIVISM.

    218. CameronB Brodie says:

      IMHO, the National Trust for Scotland’s appointment of ultra-yoon and ‘One Nation’ cult devote, Neil Oliver, has the potential to undermine Scotland’s national character and identity. This is what contemporary BritNat cultural imperialism looks like folks.

      Political Self-Determination and the Normative Significance of Territorial Boundaries

      I. Introduction
      Proponents of global egalitarian justice often argue that their positions are compatible with the principle of self-determination.2 This argument is not merely a strategy of reassuring and appeasing nationalist and statist opponents; rather it conveys the intuition that self-determination is pertinent for just institutions, protecting liberties and rights. Especially in the context of international justice, the principle of self-determination assumes a strong normative power due to its primacy in theoretical and political opposition to colonial rule.3 At the same time, the arguments in favour of global egalitarian justice reject one customary component of what it has meant for a polity to be self-determining: namely, that the boundaries of states (or other self-determining political units) are normatively significant for the allocation of rights and duties. They reject, in other words, the proposition that duties of social justice and rights of political participation stop or significantly change at borders.4

      In this paper, I propose a new argument in defense of the normative significance of territorial boundaries, which draws on a political interpretation of the principle of self-determination. This specific interpretation of the principle of self-determination emerges from the detailed analyses of the relationship between self-determination and boundaries-making, developed in theories of secession.5 Theories of secession have focused on disputed territories, assessing the validity of various claims to territory in light of the principle of self-determination. These discussions are of direct relevance for global egalitarian arguments and their critiques in regard to territories that are not currently disputed, because much of the debate concerns the validity of claims by polities to their territories and the scope of their self-determination. The political interpretation explored here defines the claim for self-determination as a claim by a group with a shared political identity to establish (or maintain) separate political institutions with jurisdiction over identifiable territory. The political interpretation is distinct, in the normative principle that it invokes, from two other conceptions of self-determination: the national and the democratic. In the national version, self-determination derives its normative claim from the value of nationality; in the democratic interpretation, self-determination is a claim to an equal participation in decision-making, deriving its normative claim from the value of democracy.6

      Building the normative dimension(s) of a global polity

      Personal Identity and Ethics

    219. CameronB Brodie says:

      Love can not survive an absence of universal human rights, especially when bound under a paradigm of Anglo-American neo-liberalism aligned with the Anglo-American New Right.

      Ken Boothe – Look what you’ve done for me

    220. Tinto Chiel says:

      Neil Oliver, you utter fraud and massive Massey-Ferguson, it’s behind you:


      I would resign from the NTS but I did that years ago. It’s a tax-dodge for the rich serviced by ghastly wee, twee, bourgeois women in twin-sets who would never vote Yes in a million years but Love The Laird and loathe the sweaty proles who pass through the shop.

      *feels better now*

    221. Marie Clark says:

      Hi folks, just off tae bed as I’ve been struggling a’ week wi the lurgy.

      Smallaxe, I hope that you are doing a bit better. I see that you’re still missing from the thread.

      Good Luck Catalonia, I’m very worried for all of you tomorrow in view of the Spanish Government actions. Stay safe folks, and it’s to be hoped that there will be no bloodshed, but I have a very bad feeling of dread around all of this.

    222. Tinto Chiel says:

      Marie: two fingers of malt will repel the dreaded lurgy. Look after yourself.

      I’m trying to be optimistic for tomorrow. Barcelona is a great city and I wish Catalunya all the best.

    223. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Alex Cole-Hamilton MSP (LibDum)
      Forget universal street lighting for a minute, do you support the principle of universal human rights?

      #perspective #RightToDevelopment

    224. Alex Clark says:

      Looks like the Ferry for a meet might be back on then!

      Broughty Ferry Nov 11, So far there is a dozen names:

      CameronB Brodie
      Liz g
      Brian Doonthetoon
      Alex Clark
      Quine frae Angus
      Ian Brotherhood (50/50)
      William Wallace (50/50)
      Paula Rose
      Chas Anderson200

      Anyone else?

    225. Ruglonian says:

      Don’t forget me Alex

    226. Cactus says:

      Gonnae wake me up, when September ends…

      Well whaddya know, we’ve arrived.

      October ’17.

      30 days.

    227. CameronB Brodie says:

      Why do BritNat ‘socialists’ like Duncan H., support colonial practice?

      How Does the Subaltern Speak?

      At the core of postcolonial theory is the notion that Western categories can’t be applied to postcolonial societies like India. On what basis is this claim made?

      This is probably the single most important argument coming out of postcolonial studies, and this is also what makes it so important to engage them. There has been no really prominent body of thought associated with the Left in the last hundred and fifty years or so that has insisted on denying the scientific ethos and the applicability of categories coming out of the liberal enlightenment and the radical enlightenment — categories like capital, democracy, liberalism, rationality, and objectivity. There have been philosophers who have criticized these orientations, but they’ve rarely achieved any significant traction on the Left. Postcolonial theorists are the first to do so.

      The argument really comes out of a background sociological assumption: for the categories of political economy and the Enlightenment to have any purchase, capitalism must spread across the world. This is called the “universalization of capital.”

      The argument goes like this: the universalizing categories associated with Enlightenment thought are only as legitimate as the universalizing tendency of capital. And postcolonial theorists deny that capital has in fact universalized — or more importantly, that it ever could universalize around the globe. Since capitalism has not and cannot universalize, the categories that people like Marx developed for understanding capitalism also cannot be universalized.

      What this means for postcolonial theory is that the parts of the globe where the universalization of capital has failed need to generate their own local categories. And more importantly, it means that theories like Marxism, which try to utilize the categories of political economy, are not only wrong, but they’re Eurocentric, and not only Eurocentric, but they’re part of the colonial and imperial drive of the West. And so they’re implicated in imperialism. Again, this is a pretty novel argument on the Left.


      In this paper I want to interrogate the political, economic, and social conditions that enable the extraction of natural and mineral resources from Indigenous and rural communities in Africa, the Americas, and the Asia-Pacific. The end of direct colonialism and the emergence of the development state did not necessarily translate into forms of local sovereignty for these communities who bore the brunt of development. I describe the emergence of resource wars in
      the postcolonial era and how organizational technologies of extraction, exclusion and expulsion lead to dispossession and death. I conclude by discussing possibilities of resistance and develop the notion of translocal governance where local actors most affected by development are able to
      forge a series of temporary coalitions with international and national groups in an attempt to promote some form of participatory democracy. The paper advance debates on postcolonialism by developing theoretical insights from translocal modes of resistance that open up new analytical spaces marked by particular configurations of market, state and civil society actors.

      Institutionalized Oppression: Passivity and Post-Colonialism in Kazuo Ishiguro’s Never Let Me Go

      Japanese-born British author Kazuo Ishiguro’s 2005 novel, Never Let Me Go, deeply criticizes the inhumanity of colonization with the story of a group of clone children bred specifically for the use of their body parts. While the
      concept of British empire is generally thought of in the context of the seizure of property, Never Let Me Go takes colonization to a disturbing and intimate level that encourages the reader to not only empathize with a loss of surroundings, but with the loss of bodily free will, equality, and the denial of authenticity. Further, Ishiguro challenges traditional post-colonial schools of thought that emphasize resistance by instead illustrating the ruthless method of colonization through pacification of its subjects.

    228. CameronB Brodie says:

      Fuck the machine, including ‘internationalist’ Marxists complicit in colonial practice.

      Resistance Theory
      Resistance theory promotes a politicized reading of the actions taken by students to oppose power hierarchies that reinforce systemic inequity related to class, gender, race, and sexuality through the imposition of curricula, rules, and culture in schools. Grounded in Marxism, postmodernism, feminism, and poststructuralism, resistance theorists provide perspective for the actions students take to complicate the political and social order of society that is replicated in schools. Resistance theorists argue that the moral and political acts of resistance that students engage in are too often misinterpreted and explained simply as misbehaving. Students and the groups they belong to exert agency in multiple ways with the ultimate objective of transforming the policies and institutions that create and maintain privilege for some while marginalizing others.

      A Pragmatist Revisioning of Resistance Theory


      Resistance theorists in education urge educators to evaluate the moral and political potential of opposition in schools. The scholarship of resistance calls us to examine oppositional acts of students in school settings as moral and political expressions of oppression. Resistance theorizing over the past several decades has not, however, adequately explored the idea that resistance is communication; that is, a means of signaling and constructing new meanings, and of building a discourse around particular problems of exclusion or inequality. In this paper, I use pragmatist theories of inquiry and communication to interpret and critique resistance theories in education. Using Dewey and Bentley’s notion of transactionalism (1946), I present a theoretical framework for future inquiry into school opposition. Interpreting resistance theory through a pragmatist lens leads to a more relational reading of resistance, and can promote school-based inquiry (rather than simple avoidance or punishment) directed toward acts of resistance in schools.

      Understanding Postcolonial Feminism in relation with Postcolonial and Feminist Theories

      Postcolonial feminist theory is primarily concerned with the representation of women in once colonized countries and in western locations. While postcolonial theorist struggles against the maiden colonial discourse that aims at misrepresenting him as inferior, the task of a postcolonial feminist is far more complicated. She suffers from “double colonization” as she simultaneously experiences the oppression of colonialism and patriarchy. She has to resist the control of colonial power not only as a colonized subject, but also as a woman. In this oppression, her colonized brother is no longer her accomplice, but her oppressor. In his struggle against the colonizer, he even exploits her by misrepresenting her in the nationalist discourses. Not only that, she also suffers at the hand of Western feminists from the colonizer countries who misrepresent their colonized counterparts by imposing silence on their racial, cultural, social, and political specificities, and in so doing, act as potential oppressors of their “sisters”. In this article, I explore these struggles of a postcolonial feminist, for it is in her struggle against the “postcolonial” and “feminist” theorists that she can assert her identity as a “postcolonial feminist.

      N.B. The Anglo-American New Right aims to re-establish a patriarchal society shaped around Christian fundamentalism and ‘traditional’ values. Knob-ends like Duncan H. align themselves with the New Right, through their support of colonial practice and the ‘One Nation’ ideology/cult.

    229. Tinto Chiel says:

      For the death of democracy in Spain:

      Courage, Catalunya.

    230. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Tom Harris
      It is clear you neither understand nor support the principle of universal human rights. Instead, you support colonialism!

      #BritNat #fascistfriendly

    231. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Duncan Hothersall
      You appear to have your head on upside-down.

      Ethical Realism
      Normative & Descriptive Ethics

      How could anyone take normative cultural relativism seriously? Why think that “murder is wrong” is true for us only because your culture says it is wrong? The fact that cultures have different moral beliefs doesn’t guarantee that all cultures have true ethical beliefs.

      Facts and moral values

      Values, Virtues, and the Language of Morality

    232. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Duncan Hothersall
      Desperate to show the world you’re lack of insight?

      Morality, ethics, and law: introductory concepts.

      The purpose of this article is to differentiate morality, ethics, and law. Morality refers to a set of deeply held, widely shared, and relatively stable values within a community. Ethics as a philosophical enterprise involves the study of values, and the justification for right and good actions, as represented by the classic works of Aristotle (virtue ethics), Kant (duty-based ethics), and Bentham and Mill (utilitarian and consequentialist ethics). Applied ethics, in contrast, is the use of ethics principles (e.g., respect for autonomy, beneficence, and nonmaleficence, justice) in actual situations, such as in professional and clinical life. Finally, law is comprised of concrete duties established by governments that are necessary for maintaining social order and resolving disputes, as well as for distributing social resources according to what people need or deserve.

      The Natural Logic of Morals and of Laws

      Unethical Laws and Lawless Ethics: Right and Virtue in Kant’s Rechtslehre

    233. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Paul Sweeney MP (British Labour)
      Re. Bourgeoisie nationalism and class struggle. Don’t you not appreciate your out-of-date politics are part of the colonialist, imperialist, social construct? Not a good look for one who wishes to shape public policy so as to benefit the oppressed.

      Marxism, postcolonial studies, and the tasks of radical theory
      OVER THE past few decades postcolonial theory has risen to prominence in the academy, becoming the dominant intellectual current of self-identified radicals. Drawing from poststructural currents, early postcolonial theory emerged from literature told from the point of view of the colonized. What originated as a response to the cultural legacies of colonialism and imperialism eventually became cultural theory, which insisted that attributing to colonized peoples the ways European colonialists understood the world was a form of colonization.

      New Imperialisms, New Imperatives
      Taking Stock of Postcolonial Studies
      Looking back: The development of postcolonial studies

      The impasse of postcolonial studies can best be understood historically. Looking back at the debates and the conflicts that have marked the field since its emergence in the mid-1970s, we find that postcolonial studies is itself a product of changing social conditions. Both postcolonialism and its terrible twin, postmodernism, achieved prominence during the 1980s, and postcolonial studies can be said to have achieved the status of a settled, “respectable” field of academic inquiry through the 1990s. Taking my cue from Aijaz Ahmad’s argument in In Theory: Classes, Nations, Literatures, I would like to suggest that the field’s early focus on discourse and textuality was symptomatic of the relative decline of Left political practice in this period and the emergence of what Ahmad referred to as “the mystique of Left professionalism” (55). Of course, this focus on discourse and textuality was not altogether a bad thing. Highlighting as it did the gaps, fissures and contradictions in both colonial discourse and in contemporary academic discourse, it radically transformed our understanding of the texts of empire, not to mention the curricula of English departments around the world, and particularly in the West.

      Marxism and Frantz Fanon’s Theory of Colonial Identity: Parallels between Racial and Commodity-Based Fetishism


      Despite Frantz Fanon’s and Karl Marx’s shared goal of the emancipation of all human beings from oppression, Fanon maintains in his final book, The Wretched of the Earth, that the connection between his theory of colonial identity and Marxist ideology cannot be reduced to a superficial doctrine of class struggles. Though Fanon resisted an oversimplified comparison with Marxist theory, this paper argues that Fanon’s analysis of the colonizers’ fabricated identity of the colonized is derived from the structure of Marx’s monetized social relations and the fetishism of the commodity which produces these relations. Marx defines commodity fetishism as the phenomenon in which the commodity is endowed with value through the labor process yet ultimately has a perceived value that is independent of the labor that produced it. Fanon adjusts this concept to the economic and psychological differences of colonialism. Fanon articulates that the colonial social relations are “epidermalized” and expressed through the whiteness of one’s skin rather than monetized and expressed through the exchange of the money-form in the commodity market. Beyond the structural similarities between the commodity fetishism in the capitalist society and the colonial racial fetishism, this paper explores the deeper causal relationship between the two phenomena: the alienation of the colonizer which is projected onto the identity of the colonized and the ensuing exclusion of the colonized–from recognition of both their humanity and their identities–which constitutes the colonization of the native selfhood.

    234. Alex Clark says:


      Got you now Gillian and glad to have you. Jock Scott are you going to make it?

    235. Alex Clark says:

      Don’t think I’ve posted a tune for a while so I’ll make it this one. Trying to stay on topic you understand.

    236. Alex Clark says:

      @Tinto Chiel

      Excuse my ignorance, just clicked on your link and it means a lot. I love it. Thank you TC that is how I feel too.

    237. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry for being so dry but these are pretty serious times and level heads are needed. Saying that, does the corporate media reflect experienced life?

      Few things are more difficult than to see outside the bounds of your own perspective—to be able to identify assumptions that you take as universal truths but which, instead, have been crafted by your own unique identity and experiences in the world. We live much of our lives in our own heads, in a reconfirming dialogue with ourselves. Even when we discuss crucial issues with others, much of the dialogue is not dialogue: it is monologue where we work to convince others to understand us or to adopt our view.

      Simply acknowledging that one’s views are not inevitable—that one’s positionality can bias one’s epistemology—is itself a leap for many people, one that can help make us more open to the world’s possibilities. When we develop the skill of understanding how we know what we know, we acquire a key to lifelong learning. When we teach this skill, we help students sample the rigors and delights of the examined life. When we ask students to learn to think for themselves and to understand themselves as thinkers—rather than telling them what to think and have them recite it back—we help foster habits of introspection, analysis, and open, joyous communication.

      What is Positionality
      In cultural accounts of experience, positionality refers to both the fact of and the specific conditions of a given social situation. So, where one might talk about the “position” of an individual in a social structure, “positionality” draws attention to the conditions under which such a position arises, the factors that stabilize that position, and the particular implications of that position with reference to the forces that maintain it.In urban informatics, positionality is relevant in the ways in which information systems create and sustain particular networks of positions, spatially and socially

      Development Communication and Social Change by Professor Srinivas Melkote

    238. CameronB Brodie says:

      “There’s another way to survive — mutual trust and help.” – Captain James T Kirk

      I know I can go on a bit, so sorry for taking up so much space.

    239. Shinty says:

      Tino Chiel -I would resign from the NTS but I did that years ago. It’s a tax-dodge for the rich serviced by ghastly wee, twee, bourgeois women in twin-sets who would never vote Yes in a million years but Love The Laird and loathe the sweaty proles who pass through the shop.

      Glad to have my suspicions confirmed.

      There are a few other organisations in Scotland I would add to that list – wouldn’t vote YES in a million years. (they usually have National or Royal attached) and always have Conservatives and Unionists at the helm.

    240. William Wallace says:

      @ CamB

      At least you fill it wi interesting shite eh 😉 What else is space fir?

    241. CameronB Brodie says:

      William Wallace
      I’ve been following the days’ events on twitter William, and caught some BBC coverage on BBC1 (approx. 9-10pm-ish). The report didn’t highlight much serious physical injury and there appeared to be very little bloodshed throughout the day. I was a bit disappointed, frankly. 😉

    242. Shinty says:

      Cameron – I just wish I had the brain for all the ‘input’ – I ain’t no ‘Johnny Five’. But truly admire those who are.

    243. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m surprising myself mate, I didn’t know I still had it in me. 🙂

    244. William Wallace says:

      @ CamB

      Did ye aye 😉

      I spent the day greeting and the night planning. Never again.

    245. CameronB Brodie says:

      William Wallace
      Sorry mate, you should have just butted in. 😉

    246. William Wallace says:

      @ CamB

      Last time I interrupted the teacher I got a detention and a hundred lines. 😉

    247. CameronB Brodie says:

      You’re desperate to give me a beamer William, thank you. 😉

    248. William Wallace says:

      Do not mistake desperation for evil intent Cam 😉

    249. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m Scottish, living in Scotland. I think I recognise desperation and evil intent when I see them William. 🙂

    250. William Wallace says:

      @ Cam B

      Then pit yir glasses on so you can see clearly 🙂

    251. CameronB Brodie says:

      On that note, night, night mate.

      The Prisoners – Joe 90 theme

    252. William Wallace says:

      GN Cam.

      Might hae to join ya.

    253. William Wallace says:

      Mah ain bed mind 🙂

    254. Ghillie says:

      Hi folks.

      Been up far too long. What a day. So proud of Catalonia. And so upset too. None of that should happened. So many people hurt and abused. This is a day that will change the world again. Another shift in what we thought was normal or could ever happen. That was horrendous.

      But they won =)

      What a battle. And the People of Catalonia won 🙂

      Think I need to curl up quietly and cry for a while though.

      Peace and love folks x. That’s what we need right now.

    255. Tinto Chiel says:

      Alex C: my pleasure. It’s for the oppressed everywhere, that one, and he had a great voice.

      CBB and WW: keep it going.

      “Glad to have my suspicions confirmed.”

      I’m biased, mind, Shinty. I resigned when they tried to charge my family for visiting a property in the Lake District despite my Scottish membership but the whole organisation is deeply suspect imho, mostly suck-ups to the gentry, as you say.

      A pity ‘cos I like Culzean: still sneak in from the Maidens side sometimes, heeheehee.

    256. Jock Scot says:

      Alex, it’s a bit far away to know what I’ll be working but I’ll be there if I can.

    257. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Duncan Hothersall
      Given the PM’s indication that she supports democratic liberty, shall we continue with your deprogramming from the ‘One Nation’ cult?

      Governmentality and its Limits
      This book is concerned with looking at the contribution a concept of governmentality can make both to an understanding of contemporary social theory and to global politics. This first section of the book will explain the concept of governmentality and will then use the concept to examine a range of other social theories. It is argued that in comparison to these theories, not only does the governmentality approach provide a more critical account of contemporary society, but in fact it can also explain the
      uncritical role these other theories play in reproducing contemporary society’s dominant forms of governance. The other theories, by contrast, reproduce the dominant rationality of governance by naturalising the very things that governmentality throws into question. Whereas most contemporary social theory takes certain things like risk, networks and reflexivity for granted (seeing them as conditions of late modernity), governmentality shows these things to be conceptualisations that contribute to (reversible) strategies, technologies and techniques.

      Neoliberalism: Policy, Ideology, Governmentality

      The term ‘neoliberalism’ denotes new forms of political-economic governance premised on the extension of market relationships. In critical social science literatures the term has usurped labels referring to specific political projects (Thatcherism, Regeanomics, Rogernomics), and is more widely used than its counterparts including, for example, economic rationalism, monetarism, neoconservatism, managerialism and contractualism.1 Indeed, Jane Jenson (1999) recently used ‘neoliberarl as a general descriptor for postwelfare state citizenship regimes. It is in this context that I reassess existing analyses of neoliberalism. The imperative for this examination arises from my growing conviction that many critical commentators have underestimated the significance of neoliberalism for contemporary forms of governance and, as such, have been largely unable to engage in the formulation of an effective ‘post-social politics,’2

      Colonial governmentality and the ‘economy’

      Using Foucault’s notion of governmentality, this paper argues that colonial governmentality in India sought to effect a new relationship between resources, population, and discipline. Drawing theoretical insights from the ‘critical accounting literature’ to bear on the regulation of economic activity in colonial India, the paper shows how the discursive practices of colonial governance, in particular the modalities of measurement, accounting, and classification, enabled the constitution of the ‘economy’. Such statistical data generated as part of colonial administration opened up the possibility of a nationalist accounting of the exploitation of India by the colonial power.

    258. CameronB Brodie says:

      Here’s one for Dunc and the Internationale of confederated Yoonatics. 😉

      Elvis Presley – Fools Rush In (Where Angels Fear To Tread)

    259. Fred says:

      Any word of Smallaxe folks? Hope he’s not at the Tory conference causing bother?

    260. CameronB Brodie says:

      Yoonatics such as Torcuil Crichton, who appear to think the 2014 indyref bore sufficient resemblance to a democratic process, to be considered the will of the people. The BBC and assorted BritNat media dominated folks’ world view, to the extent that Scots voted for English hegemony over Scotland. Go figure.

      Citizens, Knowledge, and the Information

      In a democracy, knowledge is power. Research explaining the determinants of knowledge focuses on unchanging demographic and socioeconomic characteristics. This study combines data on the public’s knowledge of nearly 50 political issues with media coverage of those topics. In a two-part analysis,
      we demonstrate how education, the strongest and most consistent predictor of political knowledge, has a more nuanced connection to learning than is commonly recognized. Sometimes education is positively related to knowledge. In other instances its effect is negligible. A substantial part of the variation in the education-knowledge relationship is due to the amount of information available in the mass media. This study is among the first to distinguish the short-term, aggregate-level influences on political knowledge from the largely static individual-level predictors and to empirically demonstrate the importance of the information environment.

      Cultural Worldviews and Contentious Politics: Evaluative Asymmetry in High-Information Environments


      Discussions about whether citizens can learn and use the information necessary to contribute to democratic governance often focus on debates about heuristics. We argue that the debate over whether heuristics should be used misframes a central issue—the consideration of what forms of decision- making are most likely to operate in different kinds of communication environments. This article examines how people make decisions in contentious political climates, which are characterized by high-information volume, relatively strong partisan commitment, and an affective divide between the opposing camps. Our contribution takes account of the possibility that in contentious environments, political communication offers neither reasoned deliberation nor cues, but rather solidarity signals that engage people’s cultural worldviews. We also posit that the use of cultural worldviews for liberals and conservatives is asymmetrical—raising important questions about democracy in a society in which a variety of worldviews have different weights for various individuals and publics. To test our perspective, we analyze public opinion data collected during the time surrounding the recall election of Governor Scott Walker of Wisconsin.

      The Role of the Information Environment in Partisan Voting

      Voters are often highly dependent on partisanship to structure their preferences toward political candidates and policy proposals. What conditions enable partisan cues to “dominate” public opinion? Here I theorize that variation in voters’ reliance on partisanship results, in part, from the opportunities their environment provides to learn about politics. A conjoint experiment and an observational study of voting in congressional elections both support the expectation that more detailed information environments reduce the role of partisanship in candidate choice. These findings clarify previously unexplained cross-study variation in party cue effects. They also challenge competing claims that partisan cues inhibit responsiveness to such a degree that voters fail to use other information or that high-information environments increase voter reliance on partisanship.

    261. David says:

      Having watched various videos of events in Catalonia, some thoughts on what I saw.

      The ordinary people seen were exactly that, ordinary. They were not rioters, nor Black Blocs, nor ‘agitators’. We can be sure of this because no-one was wearing motorbike helmets, or masks, and neither were they carrying weapons (eg sticks, bottles, bricks).

      The people were not ‘tooled up’ for a fight.
      The people were not out on the streets for the purpose of fighting with the police. They were there to vote.

      The people kept their heads, kept their cool, even in the midst of extreme provocation from the Guardia Civil police.

      Some of the police firing rubber bullets appeared to be illegally shooting at people who were too close, under the minimum firing range – most such weapons are recommended to be used at distances greater than 20 or 40 metres, to avoid risk of death.

      There were many pictures of people with head wounds, why was this when surely baton hits and rubber bullet strikes are intended to AVOID the head? (Due to risk of serious injury.)

      Well done to the firemen for attempting to stand between the people and the police. Disgraceful that the police had no qualms about getting stuck in to the firemen.

      Well done to the local, Catalonian police, Mossos d’Esquadra, for also standing in harm’s way and trying to stop the riot police getting too violent.
      In return, in one video, the riot police started in on a Mossos officer, but the people saw this, got outraged and instantly stepped forward to help him out. It was a truly touching moment. Solidarity goes both ways.

      Madrid chose to to turn a vote into a battle, what a stupid tactic from Rajoy. State violence is the default setting for fascists, their ‘go-to’ plan.
      The Spanish state won the battle, but they will lose the war.

      P.S. On the thug in a police uniform who broke a woman’s fingers –
      I was taught when playing rugby that if an opponent had hold of the ball in a ruck, you could pull or peel their fingers off it. But you always, always, had to do this slowly enough that they had the option to let go of the ball, to concede it to you. This uniformed bully did not give the poor woman a chance. Nasty behaviour, totally unnecessary, and it will probably ensure more Catalonians shift from neutral to supporting independence.

    262. David says:

      Play it loud for Catalonia!
      Judas Priest – Breaking The Law

    263. David says:

      Play it loud for Scottish (We put the ‘less’ in ‘spineless’) Labour:
      The Clash – I fought the law (and the law won)

    264. Ghillie says:

      Tinto Chiel @ 11.27 am =)

      Thank you, that helped x

    265. Liz g says:

      Fred @ 1.34
      I’ve been wondering about how Smallaxe is doing too.
      Anyone heard anything?

      Will try,to mind and ask Nana in the morning.

      In the meantime if you are managing to read this Smallaxe,we are thinking of you and Mrs Smallaxe often, and sending to you both love and strength…haste ye back my friend X

    266. Tinto Chiel says:

      Going to listen to the music of the spheres now.

      Goodnight all.

    267. Alex Clark says:

      Just spent a great weekend in the Borders and met a mate of mine, Smallaxe. He’s doing as well as could be expected and I love him to bits LOL.

      He’s a great guy and so is is his missus. They wish you all the best and send hugs and kisses your way. Believe me they do genuinely send those hugs and kisses.

      I doubt he’ll be reading at the minute but I’ll play a song for him, well not really a song LOL. I just love Blazing Saddles!

    268. Alex Clark says:

      @Tinto Chiel

      Just class. Ta 🙂

    269. Alex Clark says:


      Just read your link on the main thread. Great minds think alike LOL

    270. David says:

      Brazil’s Globo TV evening news programme just showed a report on events in Catalonia, with pics of a big crowd today in (I think) Barcelona.

      Very proud, very joyful to see a someone there wearing a Saltire on his shoulders. Well done that redheaded man! 🙂

    271. Liz g says:

      Alex Clark @ 12.01
      Thanks for the update about Smallaxe Alex.
      All those hugs and kisses right back at the Smallaxes XX

    272. Cactus says:

      Fuck, looks like one bottle of barefoot merlot blue label wine and 4 chilled beers of Miller wisnae enough, ach well, still is the night…

      Ach well, there’s always the morning…

      There’s always Tuesday.

      Have FUN!

    273. CameronB Brodie says:

      How quickly should anti-LGBTQ rail tycoon and SNP donor Brian Souter’s assets be nationalised by a Labour Government? – Owen Jones, 02/10/17

      @Owen Jones
      In what way do you understand the context of late-postmodern political economy? What efforts have you made to place your thoughts outwith the context of your cultural heritage? Are you sure you support the concept of universal human rights? I have my doubts, tbh.

      Situating knowledges: positionality, refexivities and other tactics

      Abstract: This article addresses the discussion, particularly prominent among feminist geographers, of reflexivity as a strategy for marking geographical knowledges as situated. It argues that, if the aim of feminist and other critical geographies is to acknowledge their partiality, then the particular form of reflexivity advocated needs careful consideration. Feminist geographers most often recommend a kind of reflexivity that aims, even if only ideally, at a full understanding of the researcher, the researched and the research context. The article begins with the author’s failure at that kind of reflexivity, and that particular reflexivity is then discussed and described as `transparent’ in its ambitious claims to comprehensive knowledge. The article then goes on to explore critiques of transparent reflexivity, many of which have been made by feminist geographers themselves. The article concludes by suggesting that some recent discussions of the uncertainties of research practice offer another model of feminist reflexivity that may succeed more effectively in questioning the researcher’s practice of knowledge production.

    274. Cactus says:




    275. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Owen Jones
      This might help you better understand the concept of diversity. That way you might appreciate your error in supporting contemporary British nationalism.

      You do appreciate that Britain is an ideological construct, the product of 18th century political agency that lacked popular mandate? Where is the civic bond between 21st century Scotland and England? All I see is English totalitarian authoritarianism.

      Proven Strategies for Addressing Unconscious Bias in the Workplace
      Exploring Unconscious Bias

      One of the core drivers behind the work of diversity and inclusion professionals, almost since the inception of the first corporate diversity efforts, has been to find the “bad people” and fix them; to eradicate bias. There is good reason for this. If we are going to create a just and equitable society, and if we are going to create organizations in which everybody can have access to their fair measure of success, it clearly is not consistent for some people to be discriminated against based on their identification with a particular group. Also, clear examples of conscious bias and discrimination still exist, whether in broader societal examples like the recent incidents in Jena, Louisiana, or in more specific organizational examples.

      Driven by this desire to combat inequities, we have worked hard through societal measures, like civil and human rights initiatives, to reduce or eliminate bias. We have put a lot of attention on who “gets” diversity, without realizing that to a degree our approach has been self-serving and even arrogant. “If they were as (wise, noble, righteous, good, etc.) as us, then they would ‘get it’ like we do!” Usually this is based on the notion that people make choices to discriminate due to underlying negative feelings toward some groups or feelings of superiority about their own. There is no doubt that this is often true. But what if, more times than not, people make choices that discriminate against one group and in favor of another, without even realizing that they are doing it, and, perhaps even more strikingly, against their own conscious belief that they are being unbiased in their decision-making? What if we can make these
      kinds of unconscious decisions even about people like ourselves?

      The problem with the good person/bad person paradigm is two-fold: it virtually assures that both on a collective and individual basis we will never “do diversity right” because every human being has bias of one kind or another. Secondly, it demonstrates a lack of understanding of a reality: human beings, at some level, need bias to survive. So, are we biased? Of course. Virtually every one of us is biased toward something, somebody, or some group.

      #DemocraticDeficit #RightToDevelopment

    276. William Wallace says:

      @ Cactus (MT) 11:58 pm

      Come in William Wallace…

      How’s yer embryo?

      Ahm aff it 😉

      We’ll hae to synchronise wir activities and prop up the virtual wings bar fir maximum carnage 😉

    277. Nana says:

      @ Liz

      I’ll be speaking to Smallaxe tomorrow, will pass on your good wishes.

    278. Tinto Chiel says:

      Thanks for the bulletin on Smallaxe, Alex. The place isn’t the same without him and I miss his total madness.

      Get well soon, divine Seer of Sark! And love to your fambly.

      Cactus: glad to see your cutting back on the old sauce 😛

    279. Tinto Chiel says:

      “you’re”, obvs.

      Doing fifty lines and listening to this:

    280. Fred says:

      Thanks guys anent the Smallaxe situation. @ Nana, many thanks for the Ruth Davidson expose from politicsscotland. Got the bitch bang to rights!

    281. Liz g says:

      Nana @ 9.52
      That would be great Nana thank you very much.
      Hope you are looking after yourself as well.

    282. CameronB Brodie says:

      All the best Smallaxe.

      Tommy McCook – Freedom Sounds

    283. CameronB Brodie says:

      Why do BritNats deny Scots denied access to their inalienable human “Right to Development”?

      N.B. “Scientific racism” is colourblind and is rooted in social Darwinism.

      Senior Soul – Is It Because I’m Black

    284. William Wallace says:

      Fae one rebel tae another.

      Missing yir presence Sma Axe.

    285. CameronB Brodie says:

      You don’t appear to respond well to change or appreciate the risks of fracking.

      Climate Change Governance

      Climate change governance poses difficult challenges for contemporary political/administrative systems. These systems evolved to handle other sorts of problems and must now be adapted to handle emerging issues of climate change mitigation and adaptation. This paper examines long-term climate governance, particularly in relation to overcoming “institutional inertia” that hampers the development of an effective and timely response. It argues that when the influence of groups that fear adverse consequences of mitigation policies is combined with scientific uncertainty, the complexity of reaching global agreements, and long time frames, the natural tendency is for governments to delay action, to seek to avoid antagonizing influential groups, and to adopt less ambitious climate programs. Conflicts of power and interest are inevitable in relation to climate change policy.

      To address climate change means altering the way things are being done today – especially in terms of production and consumption practices in key sectors such as energy, agriculture, and transportation. But some of the most powerful groups in society have done well from existing arrangements, and they are cautious about disturbing the status quo. Climate change governance requires governments to take an active role in bringing about shifts in interest perceptions so that stable societal majorities in favor of deploying an active mitigation and adaptation policy regime can be maintained. Measures to help effect such change include: building coalitions for change, buying off opponents, establishing new centers of economic power, creating new institutional actors, adjusting legal rights and responsibilities, and changing ideas and accepted norms and expectations.

    286. Alex Clark says:

      @William Wallace

      Good choice Wullie, Smallaxe gave me a Jamaican 5 cent coin yesterday which looks like a 50p piece. Unfortunately it’s only worth about 1p.

      I think it might have been for luck rather than cashing in 🙂

    287. CameronB Brodie says:

      Re. fracking.

      EPA Concludes Fracking a Threat to U.S. Water Supplies
      This week, the Environmental Protection Agency issued its latest and most thorough report on fracking’s threat to drinking water, and its findings support ProPublica’s reporting. The EPA report found evidence that fracking has contributed to drinking water contamination — “cases of impact” — in all stages of the process: water withdrawals for hydraulic fracturing; spills during the management of hydraulic fracturing fluids and chemicals; injection of hydraulic fracturing fluids directly into groundwater resources; discharge of inadequately treated hydraulic fracturing wastewater to surface water resources; and disposal or storage of hydraulic fracturing wastewater in unlined pits, resulting in contamination of groundwater resources.

    288. Shinty says:

      Can anyone tell me the significance of the Catalans with their 4 fingered salute (thumbs well tucked in) Noticed it in quite a few videos and have no idea what it means.

      Very prominent with the brave woman continuing to vote after receiving a serious black eye from the Spanish barstewards. (see Wings twitter)

    289. Tinto Chiel says:

      Not sure, Shinty, but the flag of Catalunya has four horizontal stripes on a yellow field.

    290. Tinto Chiel says:

      That should be RED stripes, obvs.

      Still have a touch of Radio4itis…

    291. William Wallace says:

      @ Alex

      Tis a fitting Song for a true SoulJah 🙂

      (Better version)

      If it’s been blessed by the man himself, I’m sure it’ll bring you plenty. 😉

      Place seems affy quiet withoot him tbh. Withoot meaning to pry, are we likely to see him back on anytime soon?

    292. Cactus says:

      Evening all ~

      Fired up and raring tae go, see y’all on the main thread a bit later on.

      Mon the Catalonia!

    293. Shinty says:

      Tino Chiel – I get it now, it’s the difference between the Senyera and Estelada.

    294. Shinty says:

      Tinto – sorry

    295. Tinto Chiel says:

      I bought a big estelada recently, Shinty but don’t have a flag pole yet in my back garden.

      Would love to go back to Barcelona: my daughter deleted all the foaties on my camera on our return in 2012 by mistake.

      The young are so much better than us with modern technology, hem, hem.

    296. CameronB Brodie says:

      Re. the The Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson. The man’s an appauling racist, IMHO, and I suspect he’s also a social Darwinist. Scientific racism is rooted in social Darwinism.

      British Nationalism is a Racist Identity
      he connection between British nationalism/Scottish unionism and right-wing racist street politics is not news to those of us in the Scottish independence movement, but it is being hidden from everyone else. This must be called out.

      Is Nationalism Racist?

      Scottish nationalism stands apart from other secessionist movements for being civic in origin, rather than ethnic
      The contrast between the SNP and other nationalist movements and parties is striking, argues Elliott Green. The SNP explicitly promotes civic nationalism, claiming that membership in the Scottish nation is to be defined not by blood but by voluntary attachment to Scotland and participation in its civic life. This has paid off, with high support from ethnic minorities for independence.

    297. Paula Rose says:

      Sorry Darlings been very busy elsewhere could you all tidy the place up please I’m expecting visitors.

    298. William Wallace says:

      Hid mine on the pole fir months 😉 Usually alternate atween the Saltire, Estelada and the wings flag. They rotate atween the upstairs windae and the flag pole but I felt the Estelada deserved pride o place in the run up to indyref 2017.

      To finish it aff, Eh’ve saltire buntin (season 2 episode 8 😉 – (where’s mah buntin lol) doon the back fence and a camper van full o yes and scotland stickers.

      Eh’ll hae ti dae the late night tour o the ootside o the property 🙂 Pished of course 🙂

    299. William Wallace says:

      Response tae TC above, obviously 😉

    300. William Wallace says:

      Scotland wi a capital S. Jesus wept! Eh can handle any typos but, forgetting tae capitalise meh ain country is unforgivable.

    301. CameronB Brodie says:

      New Nationalism and Old Ideologies
      Melancholic Conservatism

      Popularly seen as the direct antonym of the liberal position, a prosaic conservatism is perhaps the domain most commonly associated with new nationalist desires. We witness today a set of conservative nostalgias – a pastoral and imperial nostalgia, or what Paul Gilroy famously identified as ‘Postcolonial Melancholia’. These nostalgias are seen, for instance, in the rehabilitation of monarchy through recurring spectacles of weddings and reproduction; in the revival of Edwardian and inter-war period drama; in the disproportionate success of the Help for Heroes charity, insofar as it has become a key staging ground for the much broader symbolic valorisation of the soldier and military, both past and present; and, also, in the all-too-explicable popularity of rustic Countryfile and other cultural phenomena that invoke a similarly provincial ideal. All these instances speak to a conservative cultural nostalgia and the thinly veiled imperial mythology that accompanies it. It is a nostalgic formation that remembers a homely greatness and the genteel whiteness redolent of that greatness.

      Ideologies, Racism, Discourse: Debates on Immigration and Ethnic Issue

      White myths, black omissions: the historical origins of racism in Britain

      Abstract Racism in Britain is rooted in history. This article considers the ways in which Britishness was constructed around white visions of identity, rooted in imperial attitudes and assumptions. Although the dominant view is that the black presence in Britain was not significant before large-scale immigration after the Second World War, this article sheds light on the rich and varied nature of black people’s experiences in Britain in the nineteenth century. The central argument is that racism today can only be fully appreciated if we recognise the racist assumptions that dominated the period between the mid-nineteenth century and World War II.

    302. William Wallace says:

      @ Paula

      Sorry but we turned the place into a lads pad in yir absence and Cactus sold the hoover fir a crate o Tennents. Dishes are unwashed or in the bin, the bog is overflowing and there is fag burns on the couch. Squatters appear to have moved in tae.

      Some mad barsteward has wrote “Good Perty” on the front windae in purple lipstick and somebody else left wi the microwave saying ” I think you’ll find I brought this wi me and I don’t care for the accusation”.

      Oh eh and wi need a new front door. 🙂

    303. CameronB Brodie says:

      Put simply, British nationalism is not a healthy disposition. Moderate Scots should take note.

      ‘The Scottish hate us more than the Muslims…’: The North/South Divide? A Comparative Analysis of the Agenda, Activities and Development of the English and Scottish Defence Leagues

      There has been a recent resurgence in far-right politics in Britain, initiated not only by the British National Party (BNP) but by other, newer, organisations. The local face of the revival has been the development of the so-called ‘Defence Leagues’ of Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland. These groups claim legitimacy as anti-terrorism campaigners but all too often display overt Islamophobia and indiscriminate racism. It is apparent that the movements have developed unevenly in terms of visibility, membership and impact in the Scottish and English contexts. This has manifested itself in a far lower membership of the SDL and drastically lower turnouts at ‘major’ SDL demonstrations. This article, drawing on interviews with individuals in the EDL and anti-racist organisations, explores this disparity, finding tensions between the two organisations along religious, cultural and nationalist lines.

      The Ideologies of Imperialism

      English nationalism vs British nationalism

    304. William Wallace says:

      @ CamB

      “major SDL” Demos?

      Is that when twa cunts turned up? 😉

    305. CameronB Brodie says:

      That’s the one, no, sorry, two. 😉

    306. William Wallace says:

      @ CamB

      Olly and his mate again eh? 😉

    307. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m quietly confident of iScotland’s cultural identity William. 🙂

      Memory Lane

    308. William Wallace says:

      @ CamB

      Memory lane ya say? North side 🙂

    309. Cactus says:


    310. Tinto Chiel says:

      Impressive flaggery, WW, but I’ll raise you the Sicilian one, the Trinacria with the gorgon’s head in the middle, or, as it’s known in Palermo, “The Ruth Davidson”. Always gets the neighbours talking.

      Great sense of humour, the Sicilians.

      Sorry about this, PR.

      *Runs in with HD Marigolds and bleach*

    311. Fred says:

      Very good indeed Tinto, I’ve a mate who lives at a station on the sooth-side & hangs his “Ruth Davidson Talks Shite!” T shirt on the line for the edification of the passing commute! 🙂

      Nightshift been busy! will raise youse a “Laphraoig Quarter Cask!”

    312. Cactus says:

      Burpin’ out.

      Sleep easy, work hard people. Ah’ve done ma time.

      Do it for your country.

      Until later.


    313. Tinto Chiel says:

      Would your friend live near the Cathcart Circle by any chance, Fred?

      Before I became a superannuated layabout and metrosexual fashion icon, I worked in an institution where political symbols were banned, particularly during the Yes campaign.

      Since I didn’t really give a Carmichael for such a policy, I wore my wee enamel Senyera badge to work one day. It was spotted quickly by one eagle-eyed boss, who was called Frau Flick behind her back.

      “Is that the flag of Spain (sic) or something?” she enquired.

      “Oh, no, it’s Partick Thistle.”

      Good job our management were as badly edumacatit as they were incompetent.

      It’s a funny old game, Saint.

    314. Fred says:

      Tinto, Oot tae Paisley Canal or somewhere, not familiar with them perts! Terra Incognita I’m afraid!
      Theresa will be needing a bit of TLC from Arthur Askey tonight eh?

    315. Paula Rose says:

      Stop that singing you lot and get on with the hoovering and doing the dishes…

    316. Tinto Chiel says:

      Yes, lands west of the Cart are a problem for me too, Fred.

      Rather concerned I won’t get this gaff cleaned before Paula’s poncey “visitors” turn up. There’s four Aberlour bottles down the shunkie, the snib’s broken on the bog door, more fag ends in her palm pots and some strange stains (!) on the lounge carpet.

      WW and Cactus strangely quiet I notice…

    317. Tinto Chiel says:

      Oh, well, mustn’t grumble: better get on…

    318. Smallaxe says:

      Cactus and Smallaxe have been patrolling the border all night repelling insurgents and I am pleased to report there have been no breaches to the border.

      We have declared Gretna a sovereign nation cough cough, Peace Always!

    319. Smallaxe says:

      Are friends electric?

      Answers on a cough sweetie, please.

    320. Tinto Chiel says:

      Smallaxe/Supreme Leader of The Gretna Republic: welcome back, old fruit. Could you bring up two spare bog-brushes and a nadgering-iron? There’s some goat damage in Paula R’s smoke-house.

      Hope the old lungs are firing on all cylinders now.

      Pass the Covonia, Treeza.

    321. Nana says:

      Well well so now we know where Smallaxe has been, out on patrol!

      Good to see you Smallaxe! Take care and watch that Cactus fella.

      Oh and Smallaxe do not under any circumstances bring back any goat related products for Tinto. I’m getting rather concerned about him, worried the media may get wind of his activities and we don’t want that sort of publicity.

      Keep taking the tablets Mr Chiel.

    322. Smallaxe says:

      Hi, Tinto, Cactus arrived yesterday morning and it’s been chaos ever since we’re considering an invasion of the Lake District to turn the lakes back into lochs and the land back to Bens and Glens.

      Scotland ya bass!
      We won’t back down

    323. Smallaxe says:

      Good morning, Nana, from Cactus and me, Tinto’s out of luck I’m afraid, we had the last goat in a curry last night!

      No Pasaran!

      “I Won’t be Part of It”

    324. Tinto Chiel says:

      Has Cactus got his claymore out the thatch again, Smallaxe? I hope he’s not leading you astray, that boy. Get him to give you a song, that usually works.

      Nana: I assure you I am a man of probity and rectitude. Nadgering comes firmly within the terms of the expression “Animal Husbandry”.

      *Mad Frankie Fraser voice*

      “Oi nevva dahn nuffink, innit?”

    325. Michael McCabe says:

      Great to see you back Smallaxe. I will reply to your email real soon. Sorry it has taken me so long. All the best from Edinburgh my Friend.

    326. David says:

      Here’s a short wee video to give us all a laugh. A thief barges in to what he thinks is a dance studio, but unluckily for him the jiu-jitsu class is in session…

    327. Fred says:

      “Come cock up your beaver & mak it look frush, we’ll ower the border & gie them a Brush!” No tittering at the back there!

      Mebbes Burns, mebbes no!

    328. Tinto Chiel says:

      Fred, your double entendres are pure bringing down the tone on O/T.

      Remember, Miss Rose may pop in at any time.

    329. Smallaxe says:

      Micheal McCabe;

      Hi, Michael, no worries about the email, my friend, I hope you’re keeping well and looking after yourself.

      Randy Newman;

    330. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Smallaxe –

      Great to see you back again.


    331. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Anyone interested in going to Glasgow on Monday for demo in support of Catalonia?

      I’m not saying I’m definitely going btw, just sounding out interest.


    332. William Wallace says:

      @ TC 8:52

      It wisnae me 😉

      Still wisnae me

      Great to see ya up and aboot Sma. Ya hid me worried there.

    333. Tinto Chiel says:

      Your second clip made me quite sad, WW, until I realised Yessers are much better looking than the opposition. All the miserable gits seem to be on their side.

      IanB: will run it past The Home Secretary re “Possible Monday”.

    334. William Wallace says:

      @ TC

      It’s the same whenever you bump into Yoons and OO types in Scotland tae. There is never a love of anything in their eyes but, there is a lot of hatred and that shows in their faces. That’s why we are a bonnier bunch than them. They hate and we love. 🙂

    335. Tinto Chiel says:

      “They hate and we love. ?”

      …and have fantastic bone structure, of course WW.

      *Stares lovingly at mirror*

      Incidentally, there is a “Wallace’s Cave” near me which seems to have real substance to the claim, unlike others. It’s pretty inaccessible, situated in the side of a steep, wooded wee glen with a burn at the bottom. There was an article in the local rag a few years ago which was deliberately vague in case it attracted the attention of al fresco boozers/seekers after houghmagandy, etc but the researcher seemed to know his stuff.

      Wallace was an amazing man who seemed to get around an awful lot of Scotland for the cause. When you think of what he gave up for his country, putting a wee cross in the right box doesn’t seem too much to ask does it?

    336. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @TC –

      ‘…putting a wee cross in the right box doesn’t seem too much to ask, does it?’

      Aye, indeed. Unfortunately for some who don’t know it yet, the coming days and weeks will almost certainly result in serious injury and possible fatalities. We’ll get very detailed coverage and close-ups of what happens to innocent bystanders as well as the ‘rebels’.

      Those who turned a blind eye to what happened in ‘George’ Square on Sep 19th 2014 (or dismissed it all as an unfortunate ‘clash’ of activists) will, perhaps, find it slightly more difficult to ignore the events which are about to unfold. I for one hope they feel suitably ashamed of their wilfully selfish ignorance.

    337. Smallaxe says:

      Ian Brotherhood;

      Hi, little brother, thanks’ for the welcome back (again). I intended to take a longer break but the bold Cactus turned up at my door and crashed here for the night (most enjoyable) and now I’m absolutely shattered so I will probably sleep for the next couple of days. I will be on and off infrequently for a while before I’m back to normal. Cactus has left the building! 🙂

      I have several visits from Wingers over the past few weeks as you know and I’m hoping that you and you’re wife will take a run down here before Christmas if you can manage it. We will make arrangements to have dinner and a good catch up with each other if you’re up for it.

      I hope you and the family are good, tell Aiden that I was asking after him and hope he is still doing well as a working man. 🙂

      Meanwhile, Peacefully, as Always;

      To all on off-topic; (especially the beautiful, attractive, elegant, chic, stylish, fashionista’s, Tinto Chiel and Paula Rose

      Chris Brown:”Beautiful People”
      Everywhere everywhere
      Everywhere I go
      Everywhere that I’ve been
      The only thing I see is
      Is beautiful people

      No, we won’t say no
      Beautiful people don’t stress
      They never rest
      Beautiful people say YES!

    338. Smallaxe says:

      William Wallace;

      Hi, Will, anent your post at 3:03, I have always said that some people get the face that they deserve and I find that people who carry hatred have never known real love, for this reason, I believe they are to be pitied.

      “Give me Love”

    339. William Wallace says:

      @ TC

      “putting a wee cross in the right box doesn’t seem too much to ask does it?”

      After the struggles that our forefathers/mothers endured, it is an affront to their legacy that we did not do it in sufficient numbers last time around.

      When the opportunity once again presents itself, then out of respect for those who endured the struggles of our past and on behalf of future generations in Scotland, we must not make that mistake again.

      @ Ian

      Like yourself, I am deeply concerned about how this is going to play out. There was something of an implied threat of more violence in “Franco” Rajoy’s recent statement.

    340. William Wallace says:

      @ Sma

      Couldn’t agree more.

      Those that hate have never known love and every face tells it’s own story.

    341. William Wallace says:

      Best o luck to Scotland in the futba the night. Awa to watch the match build up. Would love to make it to a major final. It’s been way too lang.

    342. Tinto Chiel says:

      Ian, if there is blood on the tracks in Catalunya, the lack of condemnation of state violence from the EU will come back to haunt them, and I speak as a fan of the European Project. The violence was completely disproportionate and for what? “Putting a cross in the right box”? Spain could easily have ignored it and kept some dignity, but we can see Franco casts a long shadow.

      @WW: amen to that. Enjoy the fitba’. I’m at my daughter’s and have almost thrown a polystyrene brick at Willie Miller and Weetabix Heid MacPherson on VichyVision: in them The Cringe is Strong.

      “(Especially the beautiful, attractive, elegant, chic, stylish, fashionista’s, Tinto Chiel and Paula Rose)”

      Pure love ya man, Smallaxe *blubs uncontrollably like a big gurly*. Wish I had her pins…

      Take a good rest, old fruit, and get back on here for next week. Something tells me it will be momentous.

    343. William Wallace says:

      Cuuuuuummmmmmmooooooon Scotland !!!!!

      Keep the dream alive.

    344. crazycat says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood

      Re: Glasgow, Monday

      I might go. I have to go to Ayr, unless I do that on Saturday, so it depends when I finish and what mode of transport is most sensible.

      The Square at 5pm?

    345. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Has ANYONE managed to find a free web stream of the Scotland/Slovakia game, that doesn’t have the video obscured by umpteen ads, and doesn’t require a credit card – “just to prove you are you; we won’t charge. honest!”?

    346. William Wallace says:

      Wiv only gone and done it.

      Mon Scotland 🙂 🙂 🙂

    347. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @WW, TC et al –

      Couldn’t take the tension, left the house with 7 mins left, then they scored and I started greetin’ like a wean. As luck would have it I was just at the Morrison’s when the final whistle was blown so I went in and purchased 2.5 litres of their finest cider.


      It’s a funny auld game right enough TC.



    348. William Wallace says:

      @ Ian

      Meh nails are bit tae the quick. No prayed like that since eh wiz in Sunday Skale as a nipper. There is indeed a God 🙂 Any excuse fir a few beers fir me and that certainly warrants a wee swally 😉

      @ Brian

      Eh ken a wee place that usually comes up trumps wi the streams but, eh cannae post it on Stu’s site as it could potentially get him in bather.

      If yir needing a link fir Sundays gemme drap iz an email. It’s listed further up somewhere fae a couple o weeks ago. You’ll need an adblocker fir it though.

    349. William Wallace says:

      Gonna hae ti fire the fifa up and hand oot a few drubbings wi Scotland online 😉

    350. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @WW –

      Same here with the nails. That’s always mystified me – why do we bite our nails when we’re stressed? You’d imagine nails would be useful for hanging on to cliffs or scratching at attackers etc.

      Ours is not to reason why…

      We can still find a way to fuck it up on Sunday, but I’m too bushed to imagine what it might entail.


    351. Tinto Chiel says:

      IanB and WW: previous comment has disappeared but good on you both.

      I was screaming for wee Anya to come on so you can imagine my feelings: thought Griffiths turned his marker beautifully.

      I know Paula Rose will thrash me for my fitba’ content but I’ll just have to take it, I suppose 😛

      Am I wrong about her crow’s feet, btw? Just a thought.

    352. William Wallace says:

      @ TC

      “Take it” or look forward to it? 😉

    353. William Wallace says:

      @ Ian

      Mebbe it’s to stop us eating wir fingers. 🙂

      I had a pal when I was younger who used to curl his hand into a fist and bite the hell oot his hand when he got excited or angry. Big teeth marks that would sometimes draw blood.

    354. CameronB Brodie says:

      Right, folks mightl be relieved to know I’ve got my prescription filled. Before the old brain-chenistry settles down though and the flow begins to slow, here’s a little something to help moderate Scots better understand contemporary British nationalism.

      Social dominance theory

      Social dominance theory, formulated by Sidanius and Pratto (1999), is designed to explain the origin and consequence of social hierarchies and oppression (for a review, see Pratto, Sidanius, & Levin, 2006). In particular, social dominance theory attempts to explain why society seems to be underpinned by a hierarchy of groups, ranging from dominant to subordinate. According to this theory, many myths, policies, and practices in society unfairly advantage dominant groups over subordinate groups. These myths and ideologies maintain and amplify existing hierarchies as well as represent a consequence of these inequities.

      Social Dominance Orientation: A Personality Variable Predicting Social and Political Attitudes
      Social dominance orientation (SDO), one’s degree of preference for inequality among social groups, is introduced. On the basis of social dominance theory, it is shown that (a) men are more social dominance-oriented than women, (b) high-SDO people seek hierarchy-enhancing professional roles and low-SDO people seek hierarchy-attenuating roles, [c] SDO was related to beliefs in a large number of social and political ideologies that support group-based hierarchy (e.g., meritocracy and racism) and to support for policies that have implications for intergroup relations (e.g., war, civil rights,and social programs), including new policies. SDO was distinguished from interpersonal dominance, conservatism, and authoritarianism. SDO was negatively correlated with empathy, tolerance, communality, and altruism. The ramifications of SDO in social context are discussed.

      Differential effects of right wing authoritarianism and social dominance orientation on outgroup attitudes and their mediation by threat from and competitiveness to outgroups.


      A dual-process model of individual differences in prejudice proneness proposes that Right Wing Authoritarianism (RWA) and Social Dominance Orientation (SDO) will influence prejudice against particular outgroups through different motivational mechanisms. RWA should cause negative attitudes toward groups seen as threatening social control, order, cohesion, and stability, such as deviant groups, and negativity toward these groups should be mediated through perceived threat from them. SDO should cause negative attitudes toward groups that activate competitiveness over relative dominance and superiority, such as socially subordinate groups low in power and status, and negativity toward these groups should be mediated through competitiveness toward them. Findings from four student samples that assessed attitudes toward seven social groups selected as likely to vary systematically in social threat and social subordination supported these predictions. The findings have implications for reconciling intergroup and individual difference explanations of prejudice and for interventions to reduce prejudice.

    355. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Take it” or look forward to it? ?”

      I restrict my masochism to supporting Scotland, WW.

      This, coupled with my Diddy Team, is a lifetime’s “tainted love”.

      On to Bratislava…

    356. CameronB Brodie says:

      William Wallace
      Sorry for leaving you hanging the other night William but I wanted to come back with something I thought you might appreciate. 😉

      Ride – Here And Now

    357. Tinto Chiel says:

      Ljubljana, I meant.

    358. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @crazycat (8.18) –

      Hiya, sorry, wasn’t ignoring you there, was just wondering about the suggested time (5 p.m.) but I suppose that’s in keeping with previous non-weekend gatherings.

      Okay with you if we keep in touch right here, as and when we can get more details?


    359. William Wallace says:

      @ TC

      “I restrict my masochism to supporting Scotland, WW.
      This, coupled with my Diddy Team, is a lifetime’s “tainted love”.

      Eh ken what ya mean. Supporting Scotland can be mair painful than any beating at times. Hiv to say though we are looking braw the now. Wha’s yir diddy team?

      Ehm a Dee mehsel like. Been hard work this season so far but it looks like we are turning the corner.

      @ CamB

      Dinnae worry aboot it eh. Eh’m used to being snubbed, ignored and disregarded on Aff Topic so getting left hanging is a step up 😉

      Like the lyrics in that tune especially:

      I can dream myself away
      Lose myself for days
      And the train rushes past
      Like a day gone too fast

      All I know
      All I know
      All I know
      Is here and now

      Meh whole life feels like that right now.

      Reminds me o the quote

      “To seize the flying thought before it totally escapes us is our only contact with reality”

    360. CameronB Brodie says:

      Re. Frida Kahlo. She is a feminist icon and T May was trolling her own party, which is predominantly ill-disposed to any form of equality. 🙂

    361. Tinto Chiel says:

      WW: can’t say ‘cos Paula Rose will stick an 8″ stiletto up my nostril but if Mrs TC and I had had twin girls they would have been called Clare and Amber 😉

      Ken whit ah’m sayin’?

      Well, someone has to…

      My first ever game was Third Lanark V Dundee at Cathkin Park 1962 or 3 (?). Don’t ask why! Think the Hi-Hi won 2-1 and Gordon Smith was playing for DFC, just about the most elegant and intelligent player you could see. He was more Italian than Scottish.

      As a wee boy, I was fascinated by a Dundee fan with a bugle who would blow it and then shout, “Away the ‘Dee!” Football was all B&W in those days on the telly, so to see the green grass, TL’s scarlet and the beautiful dark blue of Dundee made a big impression on me, and then I was hooked on the fitba’.

      I also remember a cup replay around that time at FP, when Dundee beat us 2-4. I recall the blond head of A. Hamilton. Was Mr Gilzean still playing then? Think so, although I was standing on a lemonade crate, the crowd was so big.

      Must stop: Paula can be a trifle intemperate in these matters. It’s the years talking…

    362. William Wallace says:

      @ TC

      Yir so lucky to have seen the Dees back then. Meh first gemme wasnae until 1978. Bit lang the following text but a good read.

      After winning the Scottish League Championship in 1962, Dundee were entered as Scotland’s representatives into the 1962/63 European Champions Cup and their entry into the competitive continental stage was simply sensational. A year after becoming Champions of Scotland only AC Milan stood between Dundee and the European Cup Final and having conquered Scotland, Bob Shankly’s side came close to conquering Europe.

      The European Cup was still very much in its infancy in 1962 having first been contested in the 1955/56 season. Only two clubs – Real Madrid (the first five years) and Benfica (the last two) had won it so far and both these giants were in the draw for the 1962/63 competition; Real Madrid as Spanish Champions and Benfica as the holders. They, along with the team which the August draw had paired Dundee with, Cologne, were installed as favourites so The Dee could hardly have received a more difficult draw.

      Dundee were only the fourth Scottish club to enter the Champions Cup, following Hibernian, Rangers and Hearts. From the Dundee squad only Gordon Smith had experience in the European Cup having played for both Edinburgh clubs and this included a semi-final appearance with Hibs.

      It was going to be tough for the Dark Blues however as not only were Cologne one of the favourites but Dundee’s own form was miserable having lost five of their first seven games of the season.

      The German Champions arrived in Scotland two days before the match and amongst their party was Cologne’s Yugoslav manager Zlato Cajkovski who told the media in mangled English: “Cologne will win as our defensive football is decadent.”

      The Scottish press loved his bold statement and wrote banner headlines around his remarks to whip up a frenzy and by the time of kick off on September 5th, the huge interest in the match was evidenced by the 25, 000 crowd which had descended upon Dens Park.

      The Cologne team boasted no fewer than ten West German internationalists. Skipper Hans Schafer had been his country’s outside-left when they won the World Cup in Switzerland in 1954, while left-back Karl-Heinz Schnellinger was named in the World’s Best XI in the 1962 World Cup in Chile and would play in the 1966 final.

      The Dundee team that lined up for the national anthems was experienced. Although Craig Brown, Alec Stuart, Doug Houston and Kenny Cameron had all played in the first seven games, against Cologne, Bob Shankly reverted to the side which had served him so well in the title success. The only exception was in goal where Bert Slater made a European debut denied to Championship winner Pat Liney and Dundee lined up Slater, Hamilton, Cox, Seith, Ure, Wishart, Smith, Penman, Cousin, Gilzean and Robertson.

      Immediately from the kick off Dundee poured forward in numbers and in the second minute, Alan Cousin collided with the German keeper Fritz Ewart, who was laid out cold for a few minutes before groggily returning to his place.

      Ewart didn’t get much time to recover however as Dundee pushed forward at an incessant pace and just seven minutes later Cologne centre-back Hemmersbach was pressured into heading an Andy Penman cross into his own net.

      Two minutes later Dundee doubled their lead with a goal described by Craig Brown as one of the most extraordinary he had ever seen. From the edge of the box Bobby Wishart miscued and while the ball trundled one way, a huge divot flew in the other and Ewart dived to save the divot! The German keeper ended with turf in his hands while the ball was in the net behind him.

      It was three a minute later thanks to Hugh Robertson who fired in off Regh before Gilzean made it four when he headed home a Smith cross and then Smith himself made it five before half time.

      The match was being broadcast live on BBC Radio with commentator Kenneth Wolstenholme barely hiding his astonishment at the score and there were reports the next day of cheers being heard in the city centre over a mile away.

      For the second half, Cologne were down to ten men when their goalkeeper Ewart did not reappear and right-back Tony Regh took over in goal in these pre-substitute days. So dazed was Ewart in the dressing room at half time that he thought the score was 2-0 and that the game was over.

      More goals were therefore bound to come. Penman headed in from close range to make it six just four minutes after the break and by now every Dundee goal prompted dancing on the terracing and the track. The excitement communicated itself to the ticketless spectators outside the ground and the arm waving fans at the top of the Dens Road and Provost Road terracing semaphored the score to the people on the pavements outside.

      Gilzean made it seven with a bullet header from Hamilton’s cross and Gilzean completed his hat-trick when he headed in a centre from Alan Cousin. Eight goals and only sixty-seven minutes played and at this rate it could have ended up twelve or more. Instead it was the Germans who scored the only remaining goal with Hamilton turning a Habig cross into his own net. At the other end Cajkovski was ordered away from behind the goal presumably for coaching his stand-in keeper but it mattered not as the score finished 8-1 in Dundee’s favour.

      While Dundee recorded perhaps their greatest ever result (rivalled only by their 5-1 win at Ibrox in November 1961), for the unhappy team from the Rhine, it was ‘woe to the vanquished’ as they suffered a club record defeat which still stand today. For Dundee to score eight against the German champions, one of the fancied sides pre-tournament was remarkable and lives long on the memory of all who were lucky enough to be there.

      Cologne went back to the Rhineland after their first leg 8-1 humiliation in Dundee muttering threats of retaliation and which they carried through; very nearly progressing into the next round into the bargain. Upon leaving Dens Park, Cajkovski told the German press that the result in West Germany might be different “if say the Dundee goalkeeper was injured” and the signs were ominous at kick off when an ambulance was parked behind Bert Slater’s goal.

      Cologne made five changes from the first leg, two of them positional and the big news for the home crowd was that star man Karl-Heinz Schellinger had made the line up. He had received extensive treatment on his injured knee in recent weeks and was deployed to man-mark Alan Gilzean, Dundee’s hat-trick hero from the first game.

      Also in for the home side was goalkeeper Toni Schumacher to replace the unfortunate Ewert who was injured at Dens and right-back Fritz Pott, called up for West Germany’s match against Yugoslavia in Zagreb in seven days time while the Dundee side was unchanged.

      40,000 horn-blowing expectant home fans were in the Mungerdorf Stadium and straight from kick off Cologne went on the attack in an attempt to overturn a seemingly impossible deficit. Their hopes were raised in the seventh minute however as they got off to the perfect start when they pulled an aggregate goal back from the penalty spot. Alex Hamilton punched a Hans Schafer goal bound header over the bar and inside-right Habig put the twelve-yard kick past Bert Slater to give the Germans a 1-0 lead on the night.

      Cologne continued to put pressure on the Dundee goal in a bedlam of noise but they were guilty of a number of strong challenges which went unpunished by the Danish referee Mr Poulsen. Gordon Smith in particular was coming in for some rough treatment on the Dark Blues’ right-wing and any time a high ball came into Dundee box, Bert Slater had to endure some digs and punches in the ribs.

      Worse was to come for the Dundee keeper however as on twenty-seven minutes he dived down low at the feet of striker Christian Muellar and he caught Slater with his boot with full force behind the ear. As trainer Sammy Kean ran on help Slater, blood oozed from the wound and Kean signalled to the bench that Slater would have to go off to receive some treatment from a doctor.

      Almost immediately, the German medics tried to usher Slater into the awaiting ambulance and take him away to hospital. Sammy Kean signalled that he wanted his keeper to go to the dressing room which led to the bizarre sight of Slater jumping off the stretcher and bustling his way through the crowd towards the dressing room.

      In the meantime a confab between the Dundee players saw nineteen year-old inside-right Andy Penman put on the goalkeeper’s sweater and take over from Slater in goal with Dundee now down to ten men. It didn’t take long for Cologne to take advantage of this when Christian Muellar doubled Cologne’s lead after a fine move down the right before Schafer made it 3-0 right on the stroke of half-time.

      It was now 8-4 to Dundee on aggregate but the Dark Blues looked vulnerable and in disarray and in danger being on the end of one of the most remarkable turnarounds in two-legged football.

      At the start of the second half, Bert Slater resumed, not in goal but out wide on the right wing. He head was swathed in a huge turban-like bandage and he showed some neat touches when the ball arrived at his feet. It had been decided not to risk him back in goal but after a couple of dashes down the touchline he ran back towards his own goal to swap jerseys with the gallant Penman and resume his duties between the sticks.

      It was a turning point for Dundee as they regained their composure despite continued severe provocation. With Gilzean being well handled by Schellinger, Penman moved up field to take over the role of main spearhead while Cologne, when they needed their attacking impetus the most, found themselves having to pull men back to contain Dundee’s forwards.

      On 57 minutes however Cologne did make it 4-0 when Ian Ure put through his own net with Slater impeded.

      The Dark Blues now came under intense pressure again and just three minutes later conceded a second penalty when Ure mistimed his tackle on Thielen. The Billy Goats had a great chance to make it 8-6 on aggregate with still half an hour to go to get at least another two goals to force a third match on a neutral ground but fortunately for The Dee, Habig smashed his second penalty against the bar and with it went Cologne’s realistic chance of making the first round.

      As the game wore on the ugliness persisted as the Danish referee continued to allow Cologne carte blanche to kick and punch the Dark Blues but with just a few minutes left on the clock, Ian Ure incredibly got his name taken for an innocuous looking foul.

      This was the signal for the German crowd to pour forward from the terracing and stand six deep and menacing around the touchline. Dundee manager Bob Shankly tried to protest only to be told by a German customs official that this was normal in German matches but when Gordon Smith tried to make one of his trademark runs up the wing, he was tripped up by a fan who was standing on the edge of the playing surface.

      The Dundee players were understandably hesitant to even take a throw-in and they tried to play the clock down but the final whistle did not bring any relief for the Dark Blues. The teams were trapped on the pitch as the crowd poured forward, horns blaring and the Dundee players were swamped in a frightening flood of bodies. Fists flew as Dundee struggled towards the dressing room but they were saved when hundreds of off-duty British Army servicemen from the Rhine Army, who were at the game to support Dundee, waded into the German crowd and threw a cordon around the team to get them off the pitch unhurt – or practically unhurt.

      At the end of the match the final score was Cologne 4, Dundee 0 but it was the Dark Blues who progresssed to the First Round with an aggregate win of 8-5. It was a brave performance from The Dee, particularly from goalkeeper Bert Slater who was clearly a target from the start and Dundee started to wonder if participation in the European Cup was worth it, if scenes like the Mungerdorf witnessed were tolerated by the authorities.

      In the next round however all worries about playing in Europe were forgotten when Dundee were paired with Sporting Club of Portugal and the two matches were played in an entertaining sporting fashion.

      The first leg in Lisbon was described as in The Courier by Tommy Gallacher as “one of the fastest, most gruelling but sportiest European Cup ties ever seen.” Unfortunately for Dundee however, they conceded a last minute goal in a melee which saw the ball cleared from just behind the line. The goal was credited to inside-right Geo though the Dundee players were adamant it hadn’t crossed the line and the Dark Blues were unlucky to go back to Scotland with a 1-0 deficit.

      A week later a full strength Dundee with Hugh Robertson who had missed the first leg restored, were roared on by 32,000 crowd to a 4-1 win which would send The Dee through 4-2 on aggregate.

      Fans had arrived at Dens a good two hours before kick off and no car parking spaces could be found for miles around. Late comers missed Dundee’s opening goal on thirteen minutes, scored by Alan Gilzean to level the tie. Sporting proved to be a skilful side but they were prone to over elaboration near goal.

      On half-time, Alan Cousin headed Gordon Smith’s cross in off the underside of the bar to put Dundee ahead at a crucial time. In the second half Smith set up Dundee’s third goal and played a part in the fourth which were both but away by Gilzean.

      At 4-1 on aggregate, there was no way back for the Portuguese team. They did manage to claw a goal back through Figuerido but Dundee proudly took their place in the last eight of the European cup alongside A.C. Milan, Dukla Prague, Benfica, Feyenoord, Rheims, Galatasaray and Anderlecht.

      The draw paired Dundee with the Belgian champions Anderlecht who had sensationally knocked favourites Real Madrid out in the preliminary round.

      Interest in the tie was so huge that Anderlecht moved the game from their own ground in Brussels to the national Heysel Stadium elsewhere in the city, which could hold 60,000 and the teams would actually take to the field in front of 64, 703; more than the official capacity and the biggest crowd ever for any football match in Belgium.

      When the players took to the field on Wednesday 6th March, the Belgian hosts played “The Dundee Song” by Hector Nicol over the tannoy and the 200 Dundee fans present sung along with gusto. They were perplexed moments later however when it was followed by “The Tannadice Song” and having had both records sent over, Anderlecht secretary Eugene Steppe wasn’t sure which one to play so played both.

      When the game kicked off, the Belgian TV cameraman was caught napping when Dundee promptly scored. A sight of Gilzean’s quick-fire goal from Gordon Smith’s cross was therefore denied to those not in the stadium but happily the cameraman had Gilzean in his sights when he fired in from outside the box to make it 2-0 on eighteen minutes – his eighth European Cup goal of the season.

      Anderlecht pulled one back from the spot before the break when Bobby Cox was penalised for handball despite showing the Swiss referee a mark on his chest. Two second half goals however from Alan Cousin and Gordon Smith gave the Dark Blues an emphatic 4-1 away win. It was a wonderful performance – one of the greatest in the club’s history – and once again the result sent shockwaves across Europe.

      With the second leg at Dens a week later a seeming formality, just eighty-nine Anderlecht supporters made the journey across to Scotland. For Dundee fans, European Cup fever swept through the city. Tickets were at a premium as 40,000 supporters snapped up briefs for a crowd that exceeded even that which had watched Cologne and Sporting Lisbon in the previous rounds and is the fifth highest crowd ever at Dens.

      For the second leg on Wednesday 13th March 1963, Anderlecht had nothing to lose and dictated play from the off. They drew first blood after half an hour through Anderlecht’s top goalscorer Jacques Stockman and went in at the interval with that one goal lead.

      Two Dundee goals in the closing minutes from Cousin and Smith ensured an outcome that had never seriously been tested and allowed the Dark Blues the satisfaction of winning both legs. Cousin had equalised on seventy-eight minutes before Gordon Smith got the winner four minutes later which was described by The Courier as “a gem that will be recalled for many a day.”

      A 6-2 aggregate win meant that Dundee were through to the semi-final of the European Cup at their first attempt and the victory over Anderlecht in Brussels was a highlight of that fabulous run. With the final at Wembley that season, Dundee were now dreaming of glory and now standing in their way were the Rossoneri of Milan

      In the run up to the semi-final Dundee’s league form was erratic. With the severe winter wiping out most of January and February, Dundee were now playing at least two games a week to catch up and the backlog was beginning to take its toll on the older players.

      Two days before Dundee were due to fly out to Milan, Bobby Cox tore a cartilage against Motherwell at Fir Park and it ruled him out of one of the biggest games in Dundee’s history.

      AC Milan were a formidable side and had nine internationalists from Italy, Brazil and Peru in their ranks. Amongst them was future Republic of Ireland manager Giovanni Trappatoni, captain Cesare Maldini – father of future Milan legend Paolo, Jose Altafini who would write himself into Rossoneri folklore when he scored two goals in the final against Benfica and Italian golden boy Gianni Rivera who was known for his artistry with the ball.

      Dundee lined up with Alex Stuart in for captain Bobby Cox, meaning Bobby Seith skippered the side in the impressive San Siro while Hugh Robertson once again missed a big European tie through injury and was replaced by Doug Houston on the left-wing.

      The kick-off was delayed for thirteen minutes to allow the boisterous 78,000 spectators to pack in the Stadio Giuseppe Meazza and within three minutes Milan were ahead when inside-right Dino Sani nodded home.

      Dundee however settled quickly after the setback and midway through the first half were back on level terms when Alan Cousin headed home an Andy Penman cross after a fine run by the youngster.

      Dundee were unnerving their Italian hosts and were still level at half-time but problems were mounting for the Dark Blues. Bert Slater was being blinded by a battery of camera flashes every time he went for the ball and Shankly complained about this at half-time to the Italian officials and to the Spanish referee Vincente Caballero but to no avail. Indeed the referee according to Tommy Gallacher in The Courier showed such bias that “every time a Dundee player went near their Italian counterparts, he made it impossible for Dundee to tackle them.”

      Dundee on the other hand were being subjected to some fierce tackling and Gordon Smith and Alan Gilzean in particular were coming in for some rough treatment.

      Indeed some weeks after the match in Milan, suspicions that Dundee had been dealt unfairly in the San Siro by the referee was given credence when the official was found to have accepted extravagant gifts from the Italian club during another game and was banned from officiating pending charges of bribery.

      In spite of everything it was still 1-1 at half-time but optimism in the Dundee dressing room at the break however soon turned to dismay. Firstly Doug Houston shot past the post after he was clean through and then in quick succession, Barison and Mora found the net with flashing headers, both of which were controversial.

      Benitez appeared to be over the by-line before crossing for Barison’s goal while Altafini – standing on the Dundee goal line – had been clearly offside at the third goal. At first Senor Caballero had given offside but when one of his linesman ran onto the pitch furiously waving his flag, the decision was changed.

      In the closing minutes Dundee were stunned by a further two goals from Milan’s wingers Barison and Mora. Milan cleverly drew Ian Ure out of position before hitting high balls to the near post where Barison easily out-jumped Hamilton for the fourth.

      All five Milan goals came from high crosses against which Dundee were usually well prepared. After a promising first half, Dundee had disappointed, with the inspirational qualities of Bobby Cox badly missed. Milan were certainly a top side but the Dundee players felt they were not as good as Cologne or Anderlecht whom they had already disposed of.

      The second leg was to take place at Dens just seven days later and one player still missing was Bobby Cox as he had underwent a cartilage operation on his knee and would be resting in a Dundee nursing home during the second leg.

      Despite the fact the fact that Dundee were effectively playing for pride in the second leg, an impressive 38,000 still turned up at Dens, the second largest attendance behind the Anderlecht match since the record crowd had been set ten years before.

      Bob Shankly fielded an unchanged side on May 1st, meaning once again Bobby Seith was the captain in Cox’s absence and when they attacked from the start, it quickly became obvious that the Italians were to defend in depth.

      Play was never allowed to flow due to the constant interruption for fouls and there were few opportunities for the much improved Dundee. Finally however, Alan Gilzean broke the deadlock just before half-time when he rose to head a Gordon Smith cross past Italian internationalist Giorgio Ghezzi in the Milan goal.

      Soon after the interval Penman had the ball in the net but it was disallowed for offside against Gilzean and although Milan were fortunate not to concede a penalty when Smith was blatantly punched while inside the box, there was no further scoring.

      Throughout both legs, Gordon Smith and Alan Gilzean had taken some terrible punishment and with just six minutes remaining the frustrated inside-man sought retribution, lashed out at Benitez and was ordered off.

      It was a sad end to Dundee’s fabulous European Cup adventure and Tommy Gallacher described it as “one of the most bruising and bitter battles ever seen at Dens Park, where flailing boots and raised fists were common place.”

      In total Dundee played eight games in their European Cup campaign, winning five and losing three and had they posted such results in the modern day Champions’ League format, they would have easily qualified from their group. The 1962/63 results are also the main reason why Dundee still has a UEFA ranking of 228.

      Dundee Football Club had come so near and yet so far to becoming the first British side to win the European Cup and could so easily have beaten Celtic’s Lisbon Lions to it by four years. The players had done themselves, the club, the fans and the city proud with their wonderful and scintillating performances and left continental shockwaves in their wake on route to the semi-final.

      They had earned their right to be among football’s European elite and the club proudly celebrated their magnificent Champions’ Cup campaign on its fiftieth anniversary this year.

    363. William Wallace says:

      @ TC

      Could be the beer but yiv got iz stumped on the Claire and Amber?

    364. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @TC & WW –

      Much as I am minded to suggest that the pair of ye’s might want tae hire a room…

      I’d rather make the much more positive suggestion that what ye’s are gabbin aboot might be of considerable interest to small publishers?

      Well, can I suggest that!

      In any event, on ye’s go.


    365. Tinto Chiel says:

      Ian: don’t know what Paula Rose’s version of hammers is but WW and I are furrit.

      WW: I remember all that first hand: so many great players in the Dark Blue then. The BBC (remember them?) prefaced one of their fitba’ programmes of the Euro ties with “Bonnie Dundee”. As a Covenanter, I forgave them. Betcha BDTT and Socrates MacSporran remember too.

      Your team produced great football in those days and their league-winning team was very special. I’m proud to have seen them. And you have won the Longest Post on O/T Award, too.

      Clare and Amber? Add a ‘t’ to the first name.


    366. William Wallace says:

      @ Ian

      Meh first lang post tae and eh’m haein ti pit up wi this cheek eftir the Camzer has philosophised iz tae death wi big, lang and hard tae wrap yir heid aroond affairs 🙂 Only kidding the Camzarito (KB reference)

      The guy that wrote that is already published. He has written a few books on the history o Dundee Football Club.

      If eh hid half his literary commitment, Eh probably would have finished the books eh’ve been working on the last ten year. 🙂

    367. William Wallace says:

      @ TC

      Yiv got me rackin meh brains man but, eh cannae make the connection. Pit iz oot meh misery 🙂

      Is it a conventional futba team? Eh am absolutely flummoxed.

    368. William Wallace says:


    369. Alex Clark says:


      Nice to see you back in the fold 🙂

      @William Wallace

      The first game I ever attended in Dundee was the Dees v AC Milan at where they won 2-0 unfortunetly they had lost the first leg 3-0 so were knocked out.

      I later became an Arab LOL.

    370. William Wallace says:

      @ Alex

      Now what did yi hae ti go and dae that fir?

      Eh like ya tae 🙂 Until now. 😉

    371. William Wallace says:


    372. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Stephen Daisley
      “Nationalism truly is a disease.” – Stephen Daisley

      Better get back in your gimp cage, troll.

      Ernest Gellner
      Ernest Gellner is widely seen as one of the most important theorists in the study of nationalism. Gellner was introduced to nationalism and identity politics during his youth. As a Jewish Czech, Gellner was forced to leave his home in 1939, fleeing Prague for England in the wake of Hitler’s takeover of Czechoslovakia. Upon his return to Prague after the war, he found a much changed city that had lost most of its multiculturalism. Not feeling at home, Gellner went back to England to pursue an academic career. From his experience as an ‘outsider’, he develops his first thoughts on identity politics and nationalism. For Gellner, nationalism is the imposition of a high culture on society replacing local, low cultures and most multiculturalism. His most prominent theory on the origin of nationalism starts by regarding the transformation of society from an agrarian based economy and social structure to one centered around industrialism. For Gellner, society before industrialism, was vertically bound with over 80 percent of the population being peasant farmers. There was strict boundaries between communities (fiefdoms) as well as between classes.

      These separate communities while bound under the ‘state’ do not necessarily share common language, memories, myths, religion or ancestry. Peasants were born as farmers and died as farmers with no possibilities of economic mobility or social advancement due to lack of a standardized education. Therefore, these communities did not wish to impose their language or culture on neighboring communities. There was also no imposition of a high culture due to a lack of standardized education.

      According to Gellner, this changes with the rise of industrialism. In industrial society the barriers between communities are broken due to a standardized, mass education which allows for economic and social mobility. Gellner notes that industrialization does not spread evenly among all of the communities within the ‘state’. Therefore, individuals in the community which industrialized later lack the opportunities that those in the already industrialized community possess. According to Gellner, there are two possibilities, assimilation or lack of assimilation. If both communities share language and culture, (‘ethnicity’) then assimilation is possible through standardized education. However, if there is not a shared ‘ethnicity’, then assimilation will not occur but rather are excluded from society. In this case, Gellner argues that nationalism will emerge as the excluded ‘ethnicity’ pushes for political sovereignty.

    373. Alex Clark says:

      @William Wallace

      Wullie it could have been worse, I could have remained a Rangers fan as my very first game was in 1968 Rangers v St Mirren reserves, 15,000 there which wisnae bad. Had a lift over the turnstile as did most kids in those days.

      Nowadays, not so bothered, still look for Utd’s results and like to see any Scottish team do well in Europe.

    374. William Wallace says:

      @ TC


      @ AC

      Yir right, it could hiv been worse 🙂

    375. William Wallace says:

      Ya couldnae get a lifty ower at Tannadice in the eighties though. The turnstiles were ah wrang. Eh mind the boy on the gate at the shed letting wi ah in as bairns for the European gemmes.

      That’s whar the Dees gained extra fans. Eh wiz still getting lifty owers at 12. Went on to train wi Dundee toward an S signing and wiz a ballboy on Saturdays so it didnae matter fae 13 onwards aboot getting in to see them.

    376. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Stephen Daisley
      I doubt you’re open to reason or truth but there’s always hope.

      Nation and Nationalism Theories

    377. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Is it a conventional futba team?”

      That question, WW, has taxed the brains of many philosophers when they consider the strange enigma that is Motherwell FC, who play in claret and amber.

      *1000 yard stare as he muses on 55 wasted years on the Boulevard of Broken Dreams*

      Think we should change the subject…

    378. Tinto Chiel says:

      I have a very literal mind.

      The nights are fair drawing in, eh?

    379. Tinto Chiel says:

      Back indoors.

      The birch is a slender woman, passing fair, but elm hateth man and waiteth…

    380. Fred says:

      Glory days for the Gers included attacking Franco’s Civil Guards in Barcelona in the 70’s, they hadn’t seen a charge like that since Jarama. The fans busses were applauded all the way oot the toon!

    381. Tinto Chiel says:

      The Odd Couple of Pop, imho:

    382. CameronB Brodie says:

      OFFS. Yes, climate change is inevitable but we can mitigate it’s worst impacts if we act now. Fracking does not help in any way but a Scottish renewable energy sector would most definitely benefit humanity!

      Communicating climate change to mass public audiences

      This short advisory paper collates a set of recommendation
      s about how best to shape mass public communications aimed at increasing concern about climate change and motivating commensurate behavioural changes.

      N.B. Men are more prone than women, to Right Wing Authoritarianism and Social Dominance Orientation. Such sad sacks are not open to change or new ideas.

      A gender approach to understanding the differentiated impact of barriers to adaptation: responses to climate change in rural Ethiopia

      Climate change and challenges for conservation

    383. CameronB Brodie says:

      Just because Jacob Rees-Mogg is who he is, doesn’t mean he’s not entitled to a dedication.

      The Fall – Big New Prinz

    384. CameronB Brodie says:

      I see the Prime Minister has adopted a make-do-and-men look, perhaps to project a sense of connectedness and empathy with the masses suffering under austerity?

      Good show.

    385. Fred says:

      Nothing on the Highland Division abandoned at St Valery in that clip CBB!

      Good article on Scottish writers in todays National.

    386. Nana says:

      @Tinto Chiel

      Saw this and thought of you, the latest in manly fashion.

    387. Tinto Chiel says:

      Nana: wow, just wow!

      I’m immediately suspending my Autumn Collection (mainly russets and aubergines in figure-hugging style statements) and will explore the options of your tempting couture before my Dubrovnik break with Mrs TC, who is firmly agnostic in these matters.

      Wish Smallaxe could give me some advice but he’s still recovering from his Cognac’n’Cactus experience, I understand.

      Can you see me in the stiletto and weskit combo?

      Any advice would be appreciated. Been toning up the old lallies down the gym.

    388. Cactus says:

      Evening, aye aye, the mighty Smallaxe and bonnie Mrs Smallaxe n me were dancing on into the wee oors of the morning, sorting Scotland out, we kicked ass and will do so again soon bro.

      Ain’t it strange how ye can look out of a window in Scotland and there in the distance is another peoples country. Ah’ll stick to Scotland and enjoy the hours in Gretna-Mean-Time.

      Nae southern beasties were slapped during the duration.

      Hope yee’s are awe braw Wingers 😉

    389. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Smallaxe –

      Many thanks for the re-invitation. Will consult the better half and try to pinpoint a date, then we can see if it suits.

      Cacus et al, hoots tae ye’s aw, have a brawmost weekend!

      Oh BTW Smallaxe, my wee brother told me to ask if you’re familiar with a recording called ‘Dub Side of The Moon’. I still haven’t checked it out but I suspect he’s just pulling my proverbial.

    390. Ian Brotherhood says:

      When the wee brother was up last weekend, he was struck with a sudden urge to write and asked me to fetch him a quill and some paper. This I did…

      Swiftly, he wrote the following, which was set to music the following evening by a friend. We don’t know why he wrote this, or where the inspiration came from. (At the time we had just finished a carry-out much earlier than expected and were trying to work out how we could justify another trip to the shops. But that’s another story…)

      Well, anyway, some may find it of interest so I present it now. It should be mentally sung as a form of rowing-song.

      ‘Cargo Flow’, by David Brotherhood

      When the gales a’ blow
      An the snaw a’ snaws
      With the distant smell
      Of a hill I know


      Where o where did my cargo go?
      Let the cargo flow!
      Let the cargo flow!
      From the hills of Skye to the sea it flowed.
      Where o where did my cargo go?!

      When the Great Glen echoes
      With the cries of woe
      And the wind-chaffed cheeks of a lass I know,
      From the caves of Smoo to Strathbungo


      From my wind-filled sail on Scapa Floe
      To the outlawed tune from a fiddler’s bow




    391. Tinto Chiel says:

      “From the caves of Smoo to Strathbungo”

      Particularly liked that line, Ian.

      Scrieve on, David B. Sharpen yer quill, young Lochinvar.

    392. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @TC –

      Aye, it’s a good line, you can just tell how much craft has gone intae the whole thing. And he sings it with real feeling, in a very pleasing baritone, to a tune not dissimilar to the Pogues’ ‘Streams Of Whiskey’, only much slower.

      Can’t write any more…filling-up just remembering it all…

    393. Tinto Chiel says:

      Give the young man his head, Ian. Poetry doesn’t pay but it’s good for the soul, as we know.

      Smoo always reminds me of Mrs TC and I on the dunes above Balnakiel Bay in the late 70s, overlooking the Pentland Firth. A German VW camper van arrived on the beach, and out stepped a young lady nudist who lay on the skinkling sands, baring her all to the Scottish sun.

      At this moment we noticed a troop of Boy Scouts with akela in tow, approaching unknowingly on an interception heading. All I can say is that when Babylon met The Shining City on the Hill, there was considerable interest from the young shavers, and some panic from their supervisor.

      The siren call of sex is a strong one, chinas.

      But a wholesome book has a price above rubies…

    394. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’ve been concentrating on Right Wing Authoritarianism, as it is the Tory conference week. However, those on the left also need to be careful. Incidentally, I reckon BLiS___d is riddled with RWA/SDO dispositions, and a lot of the rest appear a bit LWA/SDO. What a state to get yourself in, frankly. 🙂

      Authoritarianism: Left and Right

      In a prepublication discussion of The Authoritarian Personality (Adorno, Frenkel-Brunswik, Levinson, & Sanford, 1950) research, Edward Shils (1948) was liberal in his praise. The researchers, he then believed, had “succeeded in isolating the set of personality and attitudinal characteristics which make for receptivity to anti-Semitic ideas. The relevance of psychoanalytic categories and hypotheses, flexibly used, in the understanding of social cleavages is better demonstrated in this study than anywhere else” (Shils, 1948, p. 29). The preliminary report that Shils cited was on the anti-Semitic personality; he did not mention the equation of this personality with prefascist leanings. About the time Shils was making this assessment, the concerns of United States policy and public opinion makers were refocusing. Fascism had been defeated; the new enemy was communism. The name of Joseph McCarthy was coming to be synonymous with irresponsible attacks on people in government, academia, and the arts who had left-wing sympathies. By 1950, anticommunism had come to the fore as the engine of U.S. foreign policy.

      Left-wing authoritarianism is not a myth, but a worrisome reality. Evidence from 13 Eastern European countries

      Chasing the Elusive Left-Wing Authoritarian:
      An Examination of Altemeyer’s Right-Wing Authoritarianism and Left-Wing Authoritarianism Scales

      The present research attempts to replicate and extend Altemeyer’s (1996) research on left-wing authoritarianism. Two hundred and twenty participants completed the Right Wing Authoritarianism Scale (Altemeyer, 1996), Left Wing Authoritarianism Scale Altemeyer, 1996) Attitudes Toward Violence Scale (ATVS; Anderson, Benjamin, Wood, & Bonacci, 2006), the Need for Cognition Scale (Cacioppo, Petty, & Kao, 1984), and the Consideration for Future Consequences Scale (Strathman, Gleicher, Boninger, & Edwards, 1994). The results largely replicated Altemeyer’s (1996) research. The results showed no evidence of high scorers on the LWA Scale. Furthermore, the results confirmed Altemeyer’s typology of authoritarian styles, demonstrating that right-wingers and wild-card authoritarians tend to score higher on measures of authoritarian aggression and lower on at least one measure of epistemic closure relative to non-authoritarians and left-wingers.

    395. Michael McCabe says:

      @Ian Brotherhood hi Ian I have heard dub side of the moon. Have a braw weekend my Friend. ?:-D

    396. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @TC, CamB & M McC (that rhymes by the way!) –

      Hoots aplenty tae ye’s aw, ahm smilin’ away tae masel here, happy as Larry, whoever he is…

      😉 🙂

    397. Alex Clark says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      Had to go and look up “Dub Side of the Moon” a Reggie version of the famous Pink Floyd album, here’s their version of “Time”.

      Pretty damned good it is too 🙂

    398. Ian Brotherhood says:

      I confessed to having a very slender knowledge of Scottish history on a tweet earlier this evening, and was sent a link to a site, of which this is the final page.

      Hard to imagine why the indy movement lacks cohesion and ‘purpose’ when you read stuff like this:

    399. Michael McCabe says:

      Ani Difranco- Untouchable Face

    400. Michael McCabe says:

      You Ain’t going Nowhere-Nitty Gritty Dirt Band

    401. Michael McCabe says:

      Linda Ronstadt- Desperado(Live)

    402. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Okay, I have now sampled the first half of ‘Dub Side of The Moon’. As some of the commenters below the YT vid have noted, it’s like getting stoned without having to actually smoke anything.


    403. Michael McCabe says:

      Damien Dempsey-Sing all our cares away

    404. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Therefore, since you have preferred sheep to men, let sheep defend you!”

      The best riposte ever to the Murderous Duke and his henchmen but a really grim account of the destruction of an ancient culture and language there, Ian.

      No doubt Silvrikin Boy@SNT could conceptualise The Clearances as a lifestyle choice.

      Until recently, our real history had never really been taught in schools, and nae wunner: with one bound we’d be free when everyone knew exactly what The Wonderful Union brought us.

      Stuart McHardy points out that the Post-Culloden repression extended to the Lowlands, which were effectively occupied by the British Army for years after 1746, as its own “Cantonment Records” testify. He tracked one copy down to a library in Canada but copies in the UK have been suppressed/”lost”. They are dynamite and explode the myth that the Jacobite phenomenon was a Gaelic/Catholic one with little support in the rest of Scotland.

      Looking forward to his two new books later this month.

    405. Tinto Chiel says:

      And anurrahing…

      My daughter has just sent me a link to the BBC Scotchland Sport site which has a post-match interview with Gordon Strachan WITH SUBTITLES, for Carmichael’s sake.

      How much more Cringe can we take?

      Zut alors!

    406. Nana says:

      @Tinto Chiel

      I knew you would be thrilled on seeing that collection of ‘outfits’ but I’m afraid Tinto any advice I could give is not for airing on a public forum. Rev would likely ban me from the site!

      One thing I would advise is that you consider some form of scaffolding for your shins, should you decide to try out the high heels.

      I wish you luck on your first outing.

    407. Tinto Chiel says:

      Wise words, Nana, wise words.

      I console myself that a trend-setter is often without honour in his own country.

    408. Paula Rose says:

      Look what happens when you lot actually win a footie game – good grief.

    409. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Once again I am sent out by my wife to purchase a bag of shopping for Saturday breakfast and lunch. Excellent idea as I need a full tank of fuel.

      Call at my local Tesco. First stop try to find The Independent as they usually hide it under the Racing Post and the Morning Star.

      There is none I am advised by a member of staff.

      I purchase nothing travel to my next big Store, yes another Tesco. There is no National.

      I an not surprised as the previous Sunday I attempted to purchase the Herald on Sunday. Finding none I enquired of staff to be told by a young assistant there is not much call for it here too highbrow for folk here. I took him for a student.

      I pointed out the pile of Times can you shift this in this area I enquired . Embarrassed silence.

      The area is Slab voting.

      Needless to say the breakfast / lunch / fuel was bought elsewhere again.

      Time has come to alter the shopping habits of the Smoothpiece household.

    410. Tinto Chiel says:

      Whit you lookin’ at, eh?

      Hey, Jason, is The Independent still Dead Tree Press? Thought it had gone digital.

      Wherever I go I have to howk out Nationals from piles of Yoon Press. Then they usually don’t scan, with some stupid error message if you try the self-scan.

      So glad we live in a free society with a press to match.


    411. Tinto Chiel says:–K5928M

      The crowd are gassed, man.

    412. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Anyone fancy divulging some of their favourite 8 or 10-letter words?

      Have been doing grids all day and starting to see black and white squares.

      Just need a dozen or so.

      😉 Hoots all, as aye

    413. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @CamB –


      Saw your comment over on MT, and took it as a compliment.

      I don’t know what ‘role’ any of us actually fulfils here, but the cumulative effect is impressive!

    414. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      Glad you took it that way Ian, I do get a bit worried I’m over-doing things. 😉

      I’m trying to share knowledge gained while training to join the Royal Town Planning Institute. I think it relevant, if heavy going and not everyone’s cup of tea, that’s for sure.

    415. Tinto Chiel says:

      Are you still working, Ian?

      Athabasca: diarrhoea: encapsulate: confabulate: haemorrhage: attenuated: gonorrhoea: heuristic: scatological: quotidian: perambulate: fascistic.

      Und so weiter, old mole.

    416. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @TC –


      Cheers indeed, managed to use a few there, will let you know in due course when they’re due to appear and I owe you a pint on top of those I’ve already promised.

    417. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi IanB.

      Is a 12 letter word out of contention? I’ve been a fan of “circumjacent” since I tripped over it.

      Also, but still in contention, I’m a fan of “dendroid”…

      I know, it’s a Dundee thing…

    418. Tinto Chiel says:

      Ian: think I overshot on a few (Ooh, matron!).

      And Athabasca’s a proper noun.

      Crosswords are a pure Carmichael, innit?

      “Dendroid”, BDTT?

      “Hallaig”, ya bass.

    419. Alex Clark says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      Sovereigns, pure gold so they are LOL.

    420. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @BDTT, Alex –

      Thanks indeed.

      I can accommodate most of the lengthier wurds, esp those between 8 and 15 characters, although I cannot deal with half-sizes as yet.

      Plasteredly yours,



    421. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @TC –

      Forgot to say last night, thanks for the heads-up about Stuart McHardy. I’m not even sure if I’ve read any of his work, but I’ll certainly be looking out for it now.


    422. Tinto Chiel says:

      Ian: “Scotland’s Future History” is a quick read but really caas the feet fae aa the Yoon blethers o the last three hunner years.

      His new ones should be good.

      Thrawn describes him best, or carnaptious.

      Thank God for that.

    423. Alex Clark says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      Nothing wrang wie being plastered, pebble dashed though is a different story 🙂

    424. Paula Rose says:

      Give us a few letters Ian xx

    425. Alex Clark says:

      Hi Paula Rose

      I better go to bed spelling and grammar on the main thread just when I’m trying to be serious has went all to pot LOL. Better that I say no more.

    426. CameronB Brodie says:

      Here’s some help to explain why the BBC in Scotland does not provide a balanced reflection of Scottish experience. In essence, they are a publicly funded barrier to effective Scottish democracy and progressive social change, IMHO.

      Barriers to Social Change: Neoliberalism and the Justification of the Status-Quo among Low-Income African Americans

      Neoliberalism has been the dominant political-economic model in the United States since Ronald Reagan’s election in 1980 (Harvey, 2005). Few studies have shown how the political-economic model of neoliberalism influences behavior at the individual level (Brown, 2003; Esposito and Finley, 2014; Gershon, 2011; Klein, 2012; Leve, 2011; Martin, 2000). This study uses qualitative methods in order to understand how individuals internalize, rationalize, and explain a hierarchical social order and inequities in society. Further, it seeks to understand the connections between system justification theory and the influence of neoliberalism on individual-level behavior. In-depth interviews of 8 low-income African Americans living in the Kansas City metro area were analyzed in this study. Interview questions assessed how individuals perceive social inequities in society as being systemic or as problems of the individual. The results indicate that individualistic explanations for social problems are often paired with myths, stereotypes, and system justifying ideologies, but these are more likely to be absent in more systemic level responses. Further, respondents tended to mainly blame the individual or themselves for their economic circumstances, expressed individualistic solutions for systemic-level problems, and a form of neoliberal agency was displayed by the respondents.

      Using communication for social change

      Communication for social change and transformation

    427. CameronB Brodie says:

      This might help explain Scotland.

      Our brains — and our minds — are organized to work in a world that is essentially narrative, rather than objective. If “the environment” is, by definition, what we have adapted to, then this raises some serious questions about reality.

      Maps of Meaning: The brain, continued

    428. William Wallace says:

      @ Ian 20:29

      Stramash. 😉

    429. William Wallace says:

      Steaming 🙂

    430. William Wallace says:


    431. CameronB Brodie says:

      @David Torrance
      Has Scotland voted to leave the EU? Why are we being forced to leave? Better Together?

      Removing Social Barriers and Building Social Institutions
      Social institutions—kinship systems, community organizations, and informal networks—greatly affect poverty outcomes. They do so by affecting the productivity of economic assets, the strategies for coping with risk, the capacity to pursue new opportunities, and the extent to which particular voices are heard when important decisions are made. Social institutions can help poor people get by and get ahead.1 But they can also place barriers between poor people or the socially disadvantaged and the opportunity and resources they need to advance their interests. Discrimination on the basis of gender, ethnicity, race, religion, or social status can lead to social exclusion and lock people in long-term poverty traps.

    432. CameronB Brodie says:

      Strombolian 🙂

    433. William Wallace says:

      Get tae bed Cam 🙂

    434. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Thanks to abody who done be give me the wurds!

      Paula, you want letters…

      K S F R W

    435. Shinty says:

      re Stuart McHardy books. ‘Scotland’s Future History’ very good read. Also, ‘White Cockade’ great Jacobite tales (sad, bad & funny) Next on my list is ‘School of the Moon’

    436. Tinto Chiel says:

      IanB: ‘cos of your request last night I woke up this morning (cue song) with “haecceity” bouncing around my napper. That would get the crossworders tearing their hair out.

      Don’t know what it means but it could be essential 😛

      Coming to my hall-mat in the next few days: Jacobitism by Murray Pittock, ya bass.

      Demolishes 250 years of Yoon historical dreck, as does his Culloden and The Myth of The Jacobite Clans.

      And a happy Sunday to you all.

    437. Tinto Chiel says:

      William Wallace: enjoyed your rare foray onto the M/T. Don’t go there very much now, for the same reasons.

      Too much, “Ooh, scratch your eyes out/how very dare you!”, imo.

      Prefer some light dusting and polishing round Paula’s gaff now.

      Her apsidistra’s certainly done well this year.

      It’s the Baby Bio, don’t ya know…

    438. Fred says:

      Arivurichardich! 🙂

    439. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @TC –

      Blimey…that’s a corker.

      ‘haecceity’ Philosophy. the property that uniquely identifies an object…from medieval Latin haecceitas, literally:’thisness’.


      And totally agree with you and WW about MT au moment – Robert P has now started railing against an SNP Baaad ‘faction’ on WOS.


      *slaps head repeatedly, making small sharp noises*

    440. Tinto Chiel says:

      Fred: and so say all of us!

      Yes, Ian, I think a lot of regular posters have got cabin fever. We need a campaign to fight to use up our nervous energy. Very few new posters on the M/T (apart from the obvious plants), though Miss Babington was most welcome and Ruby’s back from her break.

      Haecceity: go on, I dare, go on. Just think of the complaints!

      Anyone confirm the Catalunya rally is 5-7 in Freedom Skwerr tomorrow?

    441. William Wallace says:

      @ TC & Ian

      It’s like a school playground over there. Squabbling bairns everywhere determined to prove they are right and everybody else is wrong.

      I know I can act like a daft kid on here at times but, it’s well intentioned and usually it’s just drunken daftness for light entertainment. It’s actually getting beyond stupidly childish now on MT. It really is playground stuff.

      It’s not a pretty picture to new visitors to the site. It also serves the Yoons agenda when they say that the Indy movement is fracturing or imploding. You’d think some of them over there with the intelligence that they have, would realise this and put a stop to it.

      People were arguing on another main topic a few days back quoting posts each of them had made going back three years in order to score a point. I think I chucked a barbed comment at everyone and slammed the door on the way out. 🙂

      Maybe a concerted effort from Aff-Topic crew to bring aboot a level of peace on MT would be a good idea. Distract arguing posters by engaging them on one of the points they have raised and diverting their attention. Then again that could potentially make things worse 🙂

    442. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Tinto Chiel

      sorry I meant the National, thinking about Independence there you see definitely the National.

      Managed to get my Herald on Sunday early at the Co-op the only one copy for sale.

    443. Cactus says:

      Re the fitba.

      ok I must ask, ahm listening in on the shortbread station…

      Did everyone hear all them beeps?

      Goal Scotland!!!

    444. Tinto Chiel says:

      WW: amen to all that. Not a good look for lurkers, as you rightly say.

      M/T needs more IanB and BDTT with his bold capitals: voices of sanity, imo.

      @Jason Smoothpiece (what a name!): thanks. Thought I was losing it. Wherever I am en Ecosse, I visit newsagents and howk out Nationals, usually hidden by Yoons in the most unlikely places on the stand.

      What kind of a country are we with so many self-loathers?

      FWIW: I watched the Scotland game at my daughter’s. It was a poor and lacklustre performance from a team which looked pretty jaded. What struck me most was they have both an English commentator telling us about our perennial heartbreak during the game and an English chairman interviewing Collins and McFadden about our perennial heartbreak.

      Great living in The Last Colony, eh, dweebs?

    445. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @TC –

      You know how to flatter a man!

      Unfortunately, my heart is broken right now…


      Mind you, when you speak of voices of sanity…Heseltine is delivering properly shiny pearls on R5 Live right now.


    446. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Ian Brotherhood at 10:16 pm.

      You typed,
      “Unfortunately, my heart is broken right now…”

      This then, is for you.

    447. yesindyref2 says:

      Maybe a concerted effort from Aff-Topic crew to bring aboot a level of peace on MT would be a good idea.

      Yes, needed.

      Distract arguing posters by engaging them on one of the points they have raised and diverting their attention.

      Tried that, I wish I hadn’t. Both sides then turn on you.

      Then again that could potentially make things worse

      It does, it quadruples argument and causes 10 times as many postings, including general complaints about it.

      M/T needs more IanB and BDTT

      Exactly what I was thinking (plus Paula and heels, and Macart). Alex tries his best. It needs peacemakers, but not more fuel to the fire by calling anyone anything, even by allusion. Too many ruffled egos “what me? He/she started it!”. Meanwhile, oh for a UseNet style killfile.

      Or a bit of self-discipline, and just ignore 🙁

    448. Alex Clark says:

      Getting fed up of trying to be honest but then that’s what some want me to do is just give up. That thread now is full of new voices, mainly negative voices so you do get sick of hearing it.

      This is a concerted effort, the’re breeding like rabbits, Still we’ve had worse in the past. Fuck em.

    449. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @BDTT –

      Aw FFS!

      Man, ah’ve barely dried the eyes!

      There’s a pub in West Kilbride draining away ma tears an snotters fae two hours ago, and then that?!?

      …then ah see Yesindyref2’s comment, and that sparks another wee flood.

      Man alive, ahm jist a pure sap fur this whole ‘patriot game’ eh?


    450. yesindyref2 says:

      Onyways, enough of that, down to more serious stuff.

      Directed by Rev Stu
      Starring Nicola Sturgeon as Jim Phelps
      John Swinney as Willy Armitage
      Angus Robertson as Barney Collier
      Alyn Smith as Rollin Hand
      Derek Mackay as Paris
      Alex Salmond as Dan Briggs
      Cactus as Sam Elliot

      Your Mission, should you accept it, is Independence.

    451. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Ian Brotherhood at 11:01 pm.

      Then I think it’s time this got another airing.

    452. Alex Clark says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon

      First one was great, second one no really meh cup o tea 🙂

    453. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Alex.

      It’s the history of the piece. French history tells that “Hey Tuttie Tatie” was played by Joan of Arc’s Scots Guards as they entered Orleans. “Hey Tuttie Tatie” was used by Burns as the inspiration of the tune of “Scots Wha Hae”.

      These may provide background:-

    454. K1 says:

      Fuck me a kettle pops in to call pots black. Couldn’t make this shit up.

    455. Tinto Chiel says:

      Alan Ginsberg’s started lurking on Wings.

    456. David says:

      I know it is totally unscientific, but just for fun I like to judge the level of support for Indy by the number of followers that Rev Stu has on the Wings twitter account.

      Wings on twitter back in 2014 had approx 40 thousand followers. So indy support was 40%.

      The referendum was lost, but indy support grew, instead of diminishing. Wings on twitter has seen the number of followers grow – slowly, steadily, sustainably.

      I cheered at each landmark: 45K, meaning 45% support.
      Then 46K, 47K, 48K, 49K.
      And then the big day when Rev achieved 50 thousand followers. 50% support for indy. Enough to win a referendum. 🙂

      And still the number rises.

      We are now at 53.1% support for indy.

      I’ll take that!

      The Magic Numbers – “Undecided”

      The High Numbers – “Zoot Suit”

    457. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @David –

      🙂 🙂 😉

    458. CameronB Brodie says:

      Re. the tendency of Tory policy to conflict with moral bio-ethics.

      How Does Poverty Affect the Brain?
      Growing up in poverty can hinder childhood achievement and affect life trajectory. Researchers in fields, such as economics and social sciences, have extensively documented these differences, but can neuroscientists develop a more complete understanding of poverty’s reach by studying the brains of infants and young children? If neuroscience research can determine the roots of the disparities by looking inside the brain, we may be able to gain a unique perspective on interventions that lessen these differences.

      Neuroscience of Childhood Poverty: Evidence of Impacts and Mechanisms as Vehicles of Dialog With Ethics

      The Poverty of the Neuroscience of Poverty: Policy Payoff or False Promise?

      A recent body of work in neuroscience examines the brains of people suffering from social and economic disadvantage. This article assesses claims that this research can help generate more effective strategies for addressing these social conditions and their effects. It concludes that the so-called neuroscience of deprivation has no unique practical payoff, and that scientists, journalists, and policy-makers should stop claiming otherwise. Because this research does not, and generally cannot, distinguish between innate versus environmental causes of brain characteristics, it cannot predict whether neurological and behavioral deficits can be addressed by reducing social deprivation. Also, knowledge of brain mechanisms yields no special insights, over and above behavioral science and social observation, into how to alleviate harms attributed to deprivation. That project depends on changing real-world circumstances and behaviors, which is limited by ethical, practical, and political constraints.

    459. CameronB Brodie says:

      IMHO, Historywoman’s disposition is extremely unhealthy. Does she still have a column in the Scotsman?

      Create a Sense of Belonging
      Finding ways to belong can help ease the pain of loneliness.

      A sense of belonging to a greater community improves your motivation, health, and happiness. When you see your connection to others, you know that all people struggle and have difficult times. You are not alone. There is comfort in that knowledge.

      The History of Psychology and Neuroscience
      “Those that cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it” (Philosopher George Santayana, Life of Reason, 1905). Is that happening in the Psychological Sciences today? The goal of this course is to enrich our understanding of modern Psychological and Brain Science by developing an understanding (and respect for) its intellectual origins. We will trace the origins of many contemporary topics in Psychology and Neuroscience to illustrate how much of our current understanding was anticipated by earlier generations. We will see that early psychologists, physiologists, anatomists and physicians, without the aid of the modern technologies we rely on today, came up with some incredibly clever ways to solve experimental problems and provide insights that form the foundations for our modern understanding of the mechanisms of mind and brain.

      The Psychology of Belonging (and Why it Matters)
      The Science of Belonging

      When we find ourselves in situations where we are the “out- group” or in an environment in which we feel like an outsider, we use our mental energy to monitor for threats, leaving fewer resources for higher cognitive processes. When students feel as if they don’t belong in a school setting, the cognitive energy that should be used on social engagement and learning is being used to scan for group barriers, discrimination and stereotypes.

    460. CameronB Brodie says:

      Our style is formulaic and playing against big guys does take it out of you (I’m 5’7″). Not as much as rugby though.


    461. Tinto Chiel says:

      @CameronBB: I see Gordon Strachan has wandered into Johann Lamont territory in an attempt to explain the Ljubljana meltdown.

      “Genetically, we are behind. In the last campaign we were the second smallest, apart from Spain.” Mentioning of one of the best teams on the planet kinda takes a chain-saw to that argument, of course.

      *Contemplates lunar landscape of his hopes and orders another Babycham*

    462. Cactus says:

      Fae the Book of Truth…

      “The Wings works in mysterious ways”

      Any mission is possible..

      Ah’ll say!


    463. Cactus says:

      Ok then, tis a good idea.. why don’t we all say something, at the same time, together on the main thread…

      Call it a ‘flash-post!’

      In just over ½ an hours time it’s gonna be 9pm.

      I’m going to post ‘three little words’ there then,

      Will you FLASH there with me at 9pm…

    464. Cactus says:

      Let’s try that one again…

      See ye at 10pm on the main thread..

      Three. Little. Words.

      Join me.

    465. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Here, check this one out.

      (Anyone seen it before?)

      @22 secs: ‘And what is it that you do?’

    466. Cactus says:

      Might just be me IB, but when I clicked it I got…

      This video is unavailable.

      Though I do recognise the saying.. lady voice yeah?

      Snap out of the trance y’all.

    467. Cactus says:

      T minus ten for 10pm…


    468. K1 says:

      Same here Ian, not available

    469. Cactus says:

      Hey K1 x.

    470. William Wallace says:

      🙂 🙂 😉

    471. Cactus says:

      William Wallace fuckin’ legend, cheers bro!

      We are the Dynamic Duo!

      Ye pouring?


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