Not The Plan B
When’s a Plan B not a Plan B? Well, when it’s something that could and should have been done already, and won’t be anywhere near adequate even if delivered.
Yet that seems to be what some colleagues are now arguing for. It’s welcome that their thoughts are at last turning to the possibility of the Tories saying No to the Scottish people’s democratic vote. But it’s happening dangerously slowly as the dismantling of devolution and reintegration into the UK gathers pace. Which’s why the Yes Movement needs to act now, not after a Holyrood election.
Britain has never been weaker, except perhaps in a time of war. This is the optimum time for Scotland to strike for its independence. The lies told to secure a No vote in 2014 have been exposed, Britain‘s deeply divided about what it is and where it’s going, and those leading it have never been more incompetent or self-serving.
That, though, won’t always be the situation. When Brexit’s resolved in whatever way, Tory minds will turn north. Their weakness will lessen, and their abilities may increase with personnel changes. The idea that the Yes movement needs to down tools for a pandemic whilst damaging actions are inflicted on our land and people is absurd.
An immediate vote mightn’t be possible but action to allow for an early one certainly is. A global flu pandemic didn’t see the Dail Eirann suspended or actions for Irish freedom curtailed a century ago. Within necessary constraints, now most certainly is the time for Scotland.
But what’s proposed? Scottish diplomatic and representative offices abroad, who could possibly disagree with that? We already have offices in key capitals and SDI operate in other areas. Fiona Hyslop is seeking to expand them and although it can be argued it should have been done before, as with a “Plan B” let’s be grateful for something being done. Other devolved nations do it and the Legation de Quebec was hugely active both in trade and lobbying for that matter when it had a Parti Quebecois government.
So, there’s a willingness to act, a base to build on and a template to follow. But how will that deliver a referendum? International politics is based on national self-interest. Sympathies of course exist and moral support can be forthcoming. But interfering in what’s viewed as the internal politics of another land just isn’t done.
The EU27 will be driven by the needs and wants of their member states. Trade and relationships with the UK will dwarf those of Scotland. Sympathy, even if it exists – and it won’t in all as we’ve seen in past actions – isn’t formal support. Even moral indignation doesn’t elicit a response as both Catalonia and Hungry testify to.
So, by all means let’s do this, but do it now and in the knowledge that though it’s important, it won’t of its own deliver. International support no more than legal challenges can deliver what’s ultimately a political battle.
But what about parliamentary action? The first question is why wait? The behaviour of this Tory regime has been reprehensible and yet nothing beyond rhetoric has been deployed. EVEL an outrage, Brexit a disgrace, the Internal Market Bill unacceptable but still the relentless crushing of Scottish interests proceeds unabated and without consequence. Disrespect shown in behaviour towards Ian Blackford at Prime Minister’s Questions is tolerated.
That’s because it’s not and never can be our Parliament. The idea of being the real opposition was an absurdity in an institution designed to defeat us. A minor rebuke of Johnson by the Speaker for saying “Scottish Nationalist Party” hardly offsets the contempt that’s regularly shown for elected members, let alone that which seeps towards our land from the very pores of the institution.
In any event it’s not SNP MPs’ task to administer the British state. When votes were close then soaking it up and seeking to influence could perhaps be argued for. But not now when every vote’s lost to a crushing Tory majority.
And what’s proposed in the event of yet another flagrant disregard of Scottish democracy? Boycotting inter-governmental meetings may be counterproductive depending on the issue. The Scottish Government still has a duty to promote the welfare of Scotland. Actions in Westminster are long overdue but boycotting Public Bills committees alone will hardly suffice. That we’re not there to settle down but to settle up is oft proclaimed but never delivered in practice.
More – much more – needs done and now. What’s been proposed by Pete Wishart isn’t a Plan B but a plan for further delay when the time is now. International support should be sought but independence will be won by ourselves alone and by the Scottish people, not through a British Parliament.
Well said Kenny. Wish the exec would remove the scales from their peepers, cotton wool from their lugs and shove some rockets up their jacksies. Stat.
Well said but how do the Yes movement build the stages needed to be an independent state.
Those can only be done by MSPs and MPs along with civil servants acting on their behalf.
We need a process now Kenny.
Ah well, nothing will get done then !! Certainly won’t be wasting my vote on a do nothing Party. Hopefully I can put my vote to a Independence supporting party !!
It’s not a Plan B we need. What we need is a Plan A that can actually deliver a free and fair referendum. The Section 30 process to which Nicola Sturgeon is committed certainly won’t do that.
It is time to acknowledge that the British state has succeeded already in closing down any democratic route to a referendum which might have existed within the legal and constitution framework imposed by England-as-Britain. Talk of demonstrating that we’ve explored avery avenue is nonsensical when all that’s left are cul-de-sacs.
There being no democratic route to a referendum and/or independence within the framework of the British constitution and in compliance with British laws, we have no alternative but to seek a democratic process outwith that framework. Or create one!
Thanks for this Kenny. We need SNP MPs and MSPs to work for Scotland, it’s people and not just for the Scottish Government. Views nowadays in the Scottish Government don’t seem to be the same as what the SNP members and the Yes Movement want.
Time for the FM and her hierarchy in the SNP to listen to its members and the Scottish people who want Independence….FIRST above all.
I do think most of us here understand all this, Kenny, and are desperate to do something about it now, not in the new year when it will quickly become a lost opportunity, but what do we do as individuals? What do we do right now? How do we protect ourselves and Scotland from the ills that are about to be brought upon us?
Some have made excellent suggestions, but how do we go about moving things along at speed when there is no leadership, no developed strategies or forward planning. No fundraising to support any actions we could be taking. There isn’t even a credible list party, just a few unknown and even naive would-bes and hopefuls who will only divide the 2nd vote.
And we need to find ways to get the rest of the indy movement on board and to help them to see what is right in front of their noses and to heal the rifts instead of their dismissal and scoffing at all the points you have made here so clearly. We are probably all up for immediate action – but what? how? where? who?
I agree Kenny. The issue actually is we know all the pitfalls and problems. What we are crying out for is leadership and solutions. There has to be emphasis now on selecting those who will try to create these solutions rather than sitting shrugging their shoulders and giving the impression they have everything in hand.
Many believe them because they must hold on to some hope.
Peter Bell is very right when he states the SNP have allowed us to be bussed up dead ends through incompetence or ignorance, or possibly even design.
Well said Kenny. It was unfortunate political brinkmanship that said the Scottish Parliament was reconvened. It was an English construct to chain us into more subservience safe in the knowledge that we were “free”. Devolution was a chain that has ensnared many of your colleagues and IS NOT AND NEVER WILL BE ENOUGH.
It might help if the SNP actually understood and respected constitutional law, rather than simply knowing how to follow the rules when playing at British constitutionalism. Though that would require a respect for the Natural law, and the trans-activists have pretty much managed to purge any respect for the Natural law from party policy. Subsequently, I’m afraid the party is currently unfit to defend Scotland’s democracy from expansionist English nationalism. So here’s a look at some comparative constitutional law, just to show you what rights Westminster is happy to remove from those living in Scotland, in order to appease the cultural demands of right-wing English nationalism.
https://oxcon.ouplaw.com/browse?access_0=all&page=10&pageSize=20&prd=MPECCOL&sort=title
who likes plan b anyways?
Speaking about not being Plan B, isn’t that Professor Green and not Plan B in the photo? Maybe I’m being a tube and or missing something.
Anyways, the SNP isn’t the answer any more we need a new movement
Thank goodness more individuals recognise the “ urgency” of the situation ( categorically not our FM with her 2-3 years referendum). Quite simply when the “ transition” period ends on Dec 31st ( and our 2-1 democratic vote ( 2016) in favour of remaining in the EU was comprehensively crushed by the “ English vote” then the 2014 vote requires to be rerun as the central plank of the NO campaign was that a “ YES” vote would ensure Scotland would be OUT of the EU)., we should DEMAND a 2nd referendum. It should be MADE CLEAR that any denial of a vote would result in the IMMEDIATE RESIGNATION of our Edinburgh government and the MAY election would be contested by the SNP on a single issue ( INDEPENDENCE) only . A pro independence majority vote ( cummulative votes for independence parties ) would result in our withdrawal from the Union treaty. Simoultaneously, legal action at international level would ensue to state our case .
The present Tory Junta at Westminster will only take note if our leaders show that they “ mean business” . They will continue to trample over our people’s sovereign wishes unless people with determination and backbone lead us going forward . The TIME is NOW !!
All this constant talk of a ‘Plan B’ when there isn’t even a Plan A is ridiculous pie in the sky thinking.
When it’s Pro Green?
Fine: so do something! Plan A is a dead letter. Only those captured by magical thinking like Pete Wishart still profoundly believe that Boris Johnson will somehow be overtaken by an attack of reasonableness and grant that Section 30 Order when Nicola waves (yet another) mandate in his face.
Whatever bloviating know-nothings like Peter Bell assert, between hurling abuse at those disagreeing with them like an enraged chimp throwing its shit around its own cage of course, we need an alternative and that can only be Plan B. Absent some palace coup coming out of the SNP conference or Salmond enquiry, we face being stuck with the same gradualist leadership for another 5 years after May 2021.
The question for Kenny and others still in the party in that event, is what are you actually going to DO to advance independence?
It’s all very well leading us rhetorically to the banks of the fundamentalist Rubicon Kenny, but when are you and others going to cross it rather than gaze wistfully at the other bank and wonder what might have been?
Thanks Kenny. I just wish more of our MPs would raise their heads.
I’ll be voting with the GoodGuys tomorrow, and we’ll see what comes out of this Conference. A shake out of office bearers would be a great start.
What a pity that the SNP are committed to prioritising:
Criminalising “Wrong Think” with the Hate Crime Bill
Denying Biological Science with the GRA Bill
As opposed to prioritising Independence for Scotland.
Too little, too late Kenny.
The Leadership of the SNP, the NEC and Alyn Smiths Science Denying Twitler Youth Division of Wokoharam need a proper clear out – aka a pull through with a fucking Christmas Tree!
You (as an MP and representative of the Sovereign Scottish Electorate based on the promise of a Referendum if another mandate was given – which it was) and your Parties Members have this weekend to get your shit sorted out.
Otherwise The Sovereign People of Scotland will inflict a defeat on the SNP that will make the one we have consistently given The British Labour Party in Scotland since 2014 look mild in comparison.
I think Edwin Collins said it more succinctly that I, back in 1983.
RIP IT UP AND START AGAIN.
Your choice SNP.
Maybe Plan B (as opposed to Professor Green) could do a new album ‘The Defamation of Stuart Campbell’
I’m being pedantic “and Hungry testify to” *Hungary
@ Livionian
We will see if this weekend’s conference provides a much needed dose of laxatives to those, who through their inaction, have constipated the movement.
If the SNP actually understood constitutional law and how to support democracy, Scotland would not be getting dragged out of the EU as a consequence of Westminster empowering populist and xenophobic English majoritarianism. And constitutional practice that conflicts with international law. So here’s a look at “Natural Rights and Modern Constitutionalism”, in the grim hope that legal reason might prevail over the social pathology of British nationalism. Though there would need to be new leadership of the SNP, to allow political action that is aimed at supporting our natural rights.
https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1007&context=njihr
Too many slithery personalities control the SNP now, and they have grown comfortable with their high pay and perks and assumed elite status. They do not want this lofty power, that they slithered and lied and connived so hard for, disrupted by anything so vulgar, so populist, as independence. The result is that the SNP is now, in effect, a most determined UNIONIST party.
I don’t agree with your view about EU supporty. Spain and “Hungry” are members of the EU and England isn’t. That removes any constraints that the EU may have had.
There will also be considerable support within the 27 member states to re-instate a former member that voted to remain a member but had its membership terminated by an another ex member.
If it is apparent that the people of Scotland wish to become an independent state and a member of the EU then the EU will, I have no doubt, factor this into its negotiations with the English Government.
You’ve missed absolutely nothing @Livionian says at 4:50 pm
Professor Green is no more Plan B (aka Benjamin Paul Ballance-Drew) than the SNPs hastily constructed pre-conference Independence Plan B is.
Hmm…
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-55106804
To all snp msps and mps we know your reading this , time to get off the comfy chair and do what we sent you to do or hand in your badges tomorrow.
Sadly Kenny, you appear to be a voice in the wilderness where the heid bummers in the SNP are concerned.
“let’s do this, but do it now”
Do what? The leadership is not for budging. Dare I say the lady is not for turning?
We’re a captive electorate – “only by voting for us can you have any prospect of getting what you want,” after which it’s, “maybe next time as they can’t go on denying the democratic will of the Scottish people, we won’t stand for it, etc, etc.”
Honestly, WTF’s the point of voting SNP when they won’t pursue the reason for their very existence and are misusing our votes to have a jolly old time of it with the trappings of power?
Kenny, please consider joining with like-minded SNP MPs and walking out of WM for good.
Let’s get it confirmed once and for all that Nicola’s Plan A is dead. Demand a Section 30 order from Westminster in January/February (after Martin Keatings court case) and of course it will be refused. Then let’s make the May Election our new Plan A. The Election will be our defacto referendum and if we have won the Court Case that will all go to strengthen it. If we don’t win the Court Case it will prove we are nothing more than England’s Colony. Either way let’s get this done. Every pro Independence vote must be counted. I agree Kenny we cannot wait until after the Election – all our leverage will be gone!
Pleas Sir can I av some more Sir .Oh pleas sir. Can I av another referendum .
Sadly, I don’t see First Minister do anything but talk. She has no challengers and she knows it. She is stilling pretty.
I was going to say more but, nah, I’ll leave it.
Bored with all the talk from Kenny now. He says the right things but, how many times do we need to read it again and again?
As for Joanna, seems she’s resorted to kicking the can down the road too, with her Jam the Morra SNP politics.
Too little, and probably too late.
For goodness’ sake let’s stop talking about it and DO IT!
I think Rev Stu summed up the like of the article you link to best in his ‘Right to reply’ in the National today @Cenchos says at 5:20 pm
It is called SMEARING
AS was found not guilty of any sexual crime by a female heavy jury and yet now Swinney tries to get an unconscious bias ‘kiddy fiddler’ link to Salmond when he and NS have their backs to the wall for stiching AS up.
Fucking disgraceful behaviour from ‘honest’ John!
The pelaton’s catching up. Time to take the brakes off.
I agree entirely with JWT @ 5.03PM If SNP MP’S AND MSP’S don’t want to experience universal credit just like the rest of us , they NEED to get their fingers out their arses , ditch the HCB and the GRA get rid of the woowoos and STATE A PLEBICITE HR ELECTION
WHY is one person NS holding a NATION to RANSOM , why are OUR ELECTED representatives NOT speaking out and PROTECTING US , THEY WORK FOR US not the SNP hierarchy or Nicola Sturgeon
The FREEDOM of Scotland is at the MERCY of NS who has FAILED to capitalise on the weakness of WM by capitulating to their every demand rather than challenging their wrongly assumed sovereignty
Thanks, Kenny, always nice to see you using an honest and upright platform to air your views. Also extremely refreshing to see you publicly berate and mock the stance of Parliamentary Pete Wishart – YES YOU, WISHART.
How convenient Covid’s turned out for Sturgeon. Were it not for the need to social distance and to practice responsible due diligence* I’m pretty sure AUOB would easily have garnered, on many occasions by now, a large throng of street-wise independence supporters to descend upon HR or Bute House or wherever necessary.
*Due diligence – she’s very cute;
“We can all get together at Christmas and we can fucking** hug – but don’t go holding public rallies that might expose me for the utter charlatan I am”..
**She didn’t use that word.
My question; Where do we go from here? Well, unless something pretty big happens, quick, we have a looming schism on our hands.
2000-page file of documents, some totally irrelevant, indeed.
“Oh my”
The Scot Govt tweet is one of series on the subject, ‘find a kid for Nicola’, and can be found by clicking the link.
https://twitter.com/ScotGovFM/status/1331596072964206600
I don’t know what’s the worse:- the tweet or the sycophantic adulation that follows it!
The car crash keeps on rolling.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/27/snp-conference-to-be-dominated-race-referendum-strategy
“SNP conference dominated by tensions over independence and lack of BAME candidates”.
We are about to have the crime of No-Deal Brexit (or thereabouts) inflicted on us and they are having a humanities-seminar debate about race…
See comment from previous thread @A Person says at 6:33pm
https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-morning-papers/comment-page-1/#comment-2583886
Fuck all to do with race and everything to do with places at the trough.
Shows what the SNPs priorities are though!
Aye Kenny, glad you’ve caught up… so what’re you going to do about it?
Notice you failed to join the dots the last mile and come out and say that the Holyrood Election needs to be plebiscite. So I’ll do it for you.
The Holyrood Election needs to be A PLEBISCITE ELECTION and those standing for it, on all seats need to be doing so on Mandate to DELIVER Independence.
You have until the end of the SNP Conference (there is no more time to wait for the outcome of the NS Enquiry) to either put the wheels back on the SNP Bus – and that MUST mean they adopt this policy (there simply is no more time for any other route).
And if that is not possible your choices are –
go down with the ship and take the country with you – or
Step Down from the Party and Stand Up For Your Country on a Plebiscite Mandate.
That’s it now.
-Jockanese-
I know, the leadership dress it up as “concern about equality” (a worthy aim) but then use this as an excuse to commandeer selection lists and impose their mates.
Agree with Daisy Walker – would add that if no permission given for indy2 by end of March then the May election is a plebicite.
Agree with Daisy Walker – would add that if no permission given for indy2 by end of March then the May election is a plebiscite.
No-one is going to stick their necks out till we vote Yes and why should they?
‘Let’s stick our noses in and then they vote No again?’
No. Someone might recognise us when we show willing.
How refreshing – fighting talk from an SNP MP.
@Dave Beveridge, 5.24
“let’s do this, but do it now”
Do what? The leadership is not for budging. Dare I say the lady is not for turning?
Also TINA. As to action, ditch the leadership and go for an indy election not a referendum.
SNP paid staff, MPs and MSP have jointly let the people of Scotland down, should SNP British MPs resign from SNP in protest.
Agree, but Mr MacAskill has said it all before. Not blaming him that he doesn’t have the power to enact any changes he calls for but am blaming SNP government that they bleat on their same tropes too without doing anything – all it is is talk, and we’re all getting sick to the stomach of empty rhetoric. Whether SNP government or SNP internal opposition to the leaders – all either side does is talk. Other parties, other politicians, still do things, even during covid, rightly or wrongly, for good or ill, but it seems now that SNP politicians are scared to carry out any action. For example Joanna Cherry could/should have stood for her MSP seat despite the hoohaa (I personally would have thought better of her had she done so). Some could have left to become independent and criticise more openly from outwith the party if they’re so unhappy at its direction, or challenged the leadership, or have left to join another party or set up their own, or even just ganged together to publically state support for other policies to show strength of feeling. A few individuals speaking up ad hoc about things now and then doesn’t cut it. No one does anything any more. I for one am sick of listening to empty talk from both sides of SNP. You are both proving useless to us.
Ordinary folk like us have little power in politics so it’s unsurprising we talk about it and postulate what should happen, but when folk who are elected representatives talk but never follow through with any type of action then what’s the bloody use of them? They have the public forum, they have the power to do something, they are expected to do things. I’m getting close to despair with the lot of them.
Colin Alexander
‘Bored with all the talk from Kenny now. He says the right things but, how many times do we need to read it again and again? …..Too little, and probably too late.’
I agree entirely Colin. I fear it might all be too late, and they’ve all certainly done far too little.
And there’s the britnats’ xenophobic brexit still to come!
#Now’s the time and now’s the hour…#
Great article Kenny, I agree with every word, my only worry is it is all a little to late. since BRITEX every single SNP MSP and MP should have been making the case that because of material change IndyRef2 was happening it didn’t matter what Westminister said. Robust action should have been taken, in court if necessary. The SNP should have stated that if the section 30 ( and I don’t believe it is needed rather it has been accepted by the SNP) was not given the next election would be a plebiscite one. Instead we have had year after year of drivel and acceptance of ‘No’ and ‘Now is not the time’ rather than the SNP dictating the time and place. The time is now more than ever because the good folk of Scotland that really need Independace can’t afford any more Tory shite. (I’m sorry for that last word, but I do feel rather strongly about them) Maybe the SNP ought to as well.
Get rid of all britnat civil servants in Holyrood.
Withdraw SNP MPs from the Westminster cesspit.
Some good points there Mr MacAskill, Joanna Cherry is becoming more vocal as well saying that after next years elections if Johnson still refuses to agree with the S30, that we should quickly hold the indyref without his consent.
Of course if Mr Keating’s court case is successful we won’t need any consent from Westminster in the first place.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18904785.joanna-cherry-holyrood-hold-indyref2-boris-johnson-blocks-new-vote/
Whatever “Plan” is used, a hope it isnae wan this loon comes up with…
https://twitter.com/CalDemps/status/1332375791867453440
https://twitter.com/ForwomenScot/status/1332400839030345730
I saw an exchange of comments on twitter earlier between Michael Hughes (@mhughes_law) and others on Angus MacNeil’s twitter feed. He attempts to rubbish Plan B, and whilst he talks the talk about discussing issues, like so many gradualists he fails to walk the walk and deleted my response to his blog.
Those interested in some of the issues between gradualists and fundamentalists might like to read his blog, and my (deleted) response to it which I have posted on LiveJournal.
https://indylawyer81.wordpress.com/2020/11/25/the-perilous-plan-b/comment-page-1/?unapproved=14&moderation-hash=a0669ca55c474802d60aecac5dd06f61#comment-14
https://scotsrepublic.livejournal.com/621.html
Don’t just get rid of Brit Nat civil servants get rid of career politician…. Two terms in office Max… No family dynasty’s either…. Just look at Fluffy and Son for crying out loud. although at least Fuffy younger had the gumption to resign which is more than Fluffy himself managed.
I appreciate the words and sentiment Kenny, but as many commentators on here have pointed out, that is all we have ever had from the SNP under Nicola Sturgeon’s leadership regarding the constitutional issue – words but no action.
All that is required is for the SNP MPs at Westminster to stand up and declare the Treaty of Union over, return to Scotland, and set up an upper constitutional chamber to plan our way forward as an independent nation. That is nothing less than their mandated duty. Every further day they spend at Westminster is another day wasted and another day lost.
More plan developing.
https://twitter.com/AngusMacNeilSNP/status/1332394601408294913
Have you seen the Swinney hatchet job on Alex Salmond on the BBC?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-55106804
Stop blowing dust in our eyes.
These people know no shame.
Karen Ross, My family and friends are going to be challenging the SNP in May by not voting for them, for the first time, in May. We will see how pretty her position is then.
I posted all of this on a previous post but this is just in case anyone missed it before ,
The latest from Iain Lawson ,
“ CONFERENCE LOOMS “
“ When it comes to problem solving, the SNP have abandoned all pretence it is a democratic process. As the nominations for office and the NEC closed, giving the leadership advance notice of who the main challengers would be (based on the number of nominations for each candidate)the rule book was being extended to provide more avenues for resisting moves by Party members to reclaim their Party. Another eleven pages of rules suddenly appeared as if from nowhere ,
https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2020/11/27/conference-looms/
And from Iain’s post he links to this ,
WELCOME TO ORDINARY SNP MEMBERS WHO ARE STANDING AS CANDIDATES.
WE SUPPORT: TRANSPARENCY ACCOUNTABILITY EQUALITY AND A FOCUS ON #INDYREF
Vote for the ‘Good Guys’ and help the party get back on track and lets deliver Scotland’s independence ,
https://www.snpgoodguys.com/the-candidates
Dunno about embdy else but if my MP (Patricia Gibson) said ‘fuck this, ahm oot’ and came back home there would be a guid few of us waiting to welcome her.
The democratic system is broken, the relationship with WM Tories is incurably diseased, Brexit is looming and we have speculators eyeing up our natural resources and health service.
If Kenny, Patricia, Angus, Alison, Phillipa and all the other decent folk we chose to represent us don’t at least make an effort to do something then we’ll have to do it ourselves.
How?
I haven’t a scoob, but no way are we just lying down and taking it for yet another generation. No chance.
A good article from MacAlpine.
https://sourcenews.scot/robin-mcalpine-this-weekend-please-turn-up-and-save-the-snp/
Doug @ 7.14
Yes, Scotland needs to take responsibility for its own destiny and be pro-active, using its democratically elected majorities.
It has long been maintained and accepted by England’s Tories (prior to the SNP replacing Labour in Scotland) that a lawful UK withdrawal route is for a majority of Scotland’s MP’s to give notice of their intention as sovereign representatives of the Scottish people to terminate the Treaty of Union arrangement.
The current 48 Nationalist MP’s (a third successive Nationalist majority) represent over 80% of Scotland’s representatives and so may give this notice now. (If required, this decision could be subject to a further national vote to confirm withdrawal.)
The real question is, what would England’s Tories do? There would seem to be two main possibilities:
1. If the notice of withdrawal is respected then Scotland is effectively independent and can begin withdrawal negotiations.
2. If the notice to withdraw is ignored or contested the matter would then be decided by the courts.
DEAR STUPID PEOPLE: YES, I KNOW IT’S PROFESSOR GREEN. THAT’S THE JOKE. THE ARTICLE IS CALLED “NOT THE PLAN B”. THE IMAGE IS CALLED “PROFGREENNOTPLANB.JPG”. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BE MORE ALERT.
“How?
I haven’t a scoob,”
That’s what Kenny MacAskill says as well
“More – much more – needs done and now. What’s been proposed by Pete Wishart isn’t a Plan B but a plan for further delay when the time is now. International support should be sought but independence will be won by ourselves alone and by the Scottish people, not through a British Parliament”
What we need is Fiona Hyslop and John Swinney to set up a machine gun in Holyrood and declare an uprising.
Wait for the Royal Greenjackets to be mustered to quell the insurrection.
@Donald Raymond says:
27 November, 2020 at 7:48 pm
“Have you seen the Swinney hatchet job on Alex Salmond on the BBC?”
I read it. Subtle it was not, just another attempt to smear him.
Makes you wonder exactly what else is being discussed in the inner circles of the SNP.
@Dave LLewellyn
Those statements, uncontested and made in the presence of the monarch could allow us to claim exactly that, that Holyrood is the reconvening of the Scottish parliament which signed the Treaty of Union.
Once we assert that then we we can escape the Reserved/Devolved/permission trap and utilise international law by announcing to the international community that we give notice of our intention to withdraw from the Treaty of Union subject to a confirmatory referendum and UK law is suspended in Scotland in the interim.
One Plan B.
Totally agree with Kenny MacAskill.
Sadly the leadership of the SNP do not want to do anything. They have become quite comfortable with their limited powers, daily bemoaning how awful ‘London’ is to them. They will not stand up for Scotland, not when it actually counts.
No, Nicola Sturgeon will keep on talking about independence for many years to come, and that is all she will do, talk.
Now is when Scotland needs to leave the UK. You do not gain independence by asking permission, yet that is what the SNP are doing. It is nonsense, and I think Nicola Sturgeon and Pete Murrell (her husband) also know it is nonsense. Section 30 is an exuse for NS to do nothing. Only this week, the London government wrote to Angus macneil, yet again confirming they have zero intention of giving a section 30, ever.
Dither, dither, dither. The SNP, found wanting in Scotland’s hour of need.
Priorities for the woke parasite infesting the SNP,
1, access to female only spaces for males,
2, Scotland to admit it invented slavery,
3, a job for Rhiannon Speers,
4, keep kicking the sh@t out of an innocent Alex Salmond,
5, suck up to the biased BBC and the hack rags,
6, try and keep Joanna Cherry away from any real power in party,
7, protect the status quo.
Ian Brotherhod at 0754pm,
Your last line, I totally agree. Their is NO WAY, folk are just going to sit back and take more of this utter sh*te from unelected snooty, pig-ignorant English Tories and ther muppets in Scotland lording it over and trashing our dear country.
Something must give. We may eventually have to bypass the SNP entirely, as they are no more use than a damp flannel.
I do think this will come to as head soon. People are sick and tired of it. We didn’t vote to leave the EU, we do not want a Tory government and didn’t elect one, we do not want our EU and human rights removed, our freedom of movement ended, our right to work in the EU trashed, our natural resources stolen by England or our Scottish health service sold to American banksters.
We don’t want any of it, not for one effing second.
The simple truth is that you can’t support democracy by undermining international law, or enabling populist constitutionalism. So I think the “Common law tort of negligence as a tool for deconstructing positive obligations under the European convention on human rights”, might highlight how badly Scotland has been let down by our political and legal officers. Who are conditioned to play at British constitutionalism, which considers itself to be above international law.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13642987.2019.1663342
@Scott 8.19pm
8. dox innocent women to further the TRA extremist agenda like @CalDemps
https://twitter.com/ForwomenScot/status/1332412399308124161
(It REALLY is time the grown ups in the SNP got control of the misogynistic bigot faction in their party. I sincerely hope forwomen.scot and any other affected report this roaster to the police).
@Robert Louis –
Cheers indeed.
Isn’t it strange how, even as things appear to get worse, we become more determined?
Mibbe it’s being ‘thrawn’, although I’ve never been sure of the correct usage of that word. I’ve always understood it to mean ‘stubborn’ in a positive way but others use it to mean ‘twisted’ as in ‘strange’, ‘weird’, ‘eccentric’ etc.
Some Scots are, apparently, happy for Scotland to be ruled by Etonians. Not sure what the best word is to describe them…
I naturally agree with you Kenny, but again its just words. You talk of the disrespect shown to Ian Blackford at Westminster but the response to this is just more words. Why don’t you all take action like walking out for a week or even a day, this will send a signal that we have had enough and would generate publicity back in Scotland.
You mention the Irish, well they would never stand for the treatment meted out by Westminster`s English MP`s to their country`s representatives.
No more words, we want ACTION.
“Some Scots are, apparently, happy for Scotland to be ruled by Etonians. Not sure what the best word is to describe them…”
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We’re not allowed to use that word on here
Mist001 says:
27 November, 2020 at 4:57 pm
“All this constant talk of a ‘Plan B’ when there isn’t even a Plan A is ridiculous pie in the sky thinking.”
More like ‘pig in the sky’ thinking!
I find myself agreeing with pretty much everything Stu and Kenny are saying lately. I must admit I don’t want to accept it, and didn’t for a long time, but there comes a time when the reality that is slapping you in the face can’t be denied anymore.
When I point that out on Twitter or FB, in response to the happy, clappy “independence has never been nearer” crowd, the vehemence it is met with is unreal. As a guy who has supported independence since he was a teenager, during Thatcher’s 80’s, it is more than a little irritating (understatement of the year) to be told you must be a unionist plant for not mindlessly following the “secret/cards to the chest” plan.
I feel like I’m talking to hopelessly naïve children.
Stu and Kenny are right, and I can’t shake the feeling that we are missing the widest, and temporally longest, open goal in Scotland’s recent history, while the SNP prevaricate and procrastinate, and Ian Blackford blows hot air in Westminster day after day, that even the majority of Scots are sick and tired of listening to.
I don’t know where we go from here, but I know the SNP are not going to get us independence.
The fightback begins…..one of the women shamefully doxxed by @CalDemps is taking legal action.
I’m sure Nicola, Alyn Smyth, Rhiannon Spears and all the rest will be condemning Cal and taking action against him, right….?
*tumbleweed*
https://twitter.com/millar_marion/status/1332434740188745735
“We’re not allowed to use that word on here”
Pretty sure use of the term SELFISH CUNTS is allowed @Graeme says at 9:12 pm
I know you really mean Tractor or QuizMaster, but I think SELFISH CUNTS sums them up better.
I still think that Craig Murray’s blog of some time ago in which he said that Westminster cannot block Scottish independence, and proposed that the Scottish Parliament resile the Treaty of Union followed by a confirmatory referendum is the way to go. The act to resile the Treaty could be passed before December 31st and a date for the referendum set as soon as it can be organised in the new year. I fear that if we don’t act before the new year it will be too late.
Much as I appreciate the input Mr McAskill – I can never work out your angle.
‘..the Yes Movement needs to act now, not after a Holyrood election”
To what end precisely, any particular plan or road map?
To support you and others within the SNP, in order to assist in altering strategy? To support a new Independent political faction in opposition? Or just to stand back and put the sly boot in – for reasons?
Don’t be in danger of skelfs in the arse from fence sitting. Be in the SNP and call the rebellion with your (inferred) hauners, or get out and form (or join) an alternative political faction, or create one from within the ‘Yes movement’ – either way, there will be support there..
Not all the support of the ‘Yes Movement’ – which is a broad church – but enough.
A bit of bet hedging is creeping in (in my opinion) the more I hear calls for the ‘Yes Movement’ to mobilise; the more the calls appear to be somewhere slightly off to the rear, while the bayonets are pointed at my belly.
Not that I really want to denigrate your input – I just ask some understanding and forgiveness, if I am ‘wary as all fuck’ – I’m stappit fu’ wi vagueness, platitides and anodyne aspirations.
“It’s time I got off my arse and lost a couple of stone”- I’ve being saying that for a while. ‘It’s time you got of your arse and lost a couple of stone’ I’ve heard as well.
Why but?
So I’m no as fucked cairrying thon up the stair – “Aye, that’s the idea – so you’re no as fucked cairrying me up the stair!”.
Actually, I think I might try and drap a couple o’ stane jist tae cairry ma ain carcase aboot comfortably, fur ma ain end.
If ye still want a hudgie – convince me ye’ll lose the gut an aw – then we’ll talk…
“NOT THE PLAN B”
You must listen to Zathras. You have a destiny. Go. Please. Go for Zathras.”
> THE IMAGE IS CALLED “PROFGREENNOTPLANB.JPG”.
It isn’t though?
Well said Scott Finlayson @8:19pm
I see two options, and two options only.
Forming a Scottish Constitutional Parliament / Interim Assembly to denounce the Treaty of Union as breached, seek International Recognition that it’s been breached, and dispute UK Parliamentary Sovereignty, and then hold a Scottish General Election to elect a Scottish Government.
Option 2, is to hijack any an every Scottish Election as a plebiscite on Scottish Independence, and if Westminster interferes or obstructs with said elections, Scotland holds it anyway. Even with Option 2 however, I believe the same challenges to the Treaty of Union and the seeking of International Recognition must be begun.
Both these options represent Scotland beginning to exercise it’s Constitutional Sovereignty as a Nation and use it to challenge the colonial will of Westminster. It is imperative that this affirmation and reassertion of Scottish Sovereignty wins the legal argument at the UN International Court of Human Rights, and carries with it the backing of the International Community.
That requires a constitutionally alert Scotland going on the charm offensive now, presenting a cogent and concise explanation of Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution to be combined with a denunciation of the Treaty of Union, citing any and all breaches of the Treaty, but with the primary focus being the unconstitutional colonial subjugation of Scotland’s will over Brexit.
The Treaty of Union can be destroyed in a Courtroom, and International Recognition ought to follow, because there is no longer a Union which exists to be recognised. But we cannot leave it to fate, Scotland must shepherd that International Recognition with an informative charm offensive to as many nations of the world as will listen. I would put EU nations, and the Council of Europe very high upon the list.
So that sees Scotland needing a crack team of Scottish Constitutional Lawyers working, now, on a formal denunciation of the Treaty of Union at the UN, and a vigorous political initiative happening now to win backing for our inevitable legal victory in the Constitutional Court.
I would also instigate a third mission, and that is an emergency intervention to delay the imminent conclusion of Brexit. It’s too late to stop Brexit, but if the UK Brexit is disputed as ultra vires, then there will have to be an extension of the EU umbrella which protects Scotland from deregulation.
@Habib Steele
Craig Murray’s plan is unnecessarily complicated. All the movement has to do is give britnats an ultimatum: either honour the 2021-14 precedent and Edinburgh Agreement for #indyref2 by “x” date, or we will consider Holyrood 2021 Election (and every subsequent Holyrood and Westminster election) automatically plebiscitary. Any such election which results in 50% + 1 voting for pro-independence parties is de facto independence.
Breeks
You are on the right track, but as for: “a crack team of Scottish Constitutional Lawyers”. Is there such people/skills in Scotland? A hae ma doots.
Ambassador Murray has the solution, and the training for it.
@ Alf Baird
What ever his other talents, Craig is no constitutional lawyer. I’m sure there are many suitably qualified candidates in Scottish universities and outside, and Scots in the diaspora, not to mention “disinterested” non-UK constitutional experts who would be able to advise and represent in any actual proceedings.
Craig has proposed a solution: whether it is the right one, or even a plausible one, remains to be seen.
The castle is surrounded, Plan A is to defend it against the enemy, but should the walls be breached, the defenders will swiftly move to Plan B.
Should the inform the enemy of their Plan B?