stooges of the Kremlin

Wings Over Scotland

Not getting over it

Posted on December 12, 2015 by

A strange phenomenon we’ve remarked upon numerous times since the independence referendum is the inexplicable undying rage of a certain subset of Unionist voters.

Having won the vote, a casual observer might expect them to be happy, but instead they appear to exist in a constant state of fury.

(Our own best guess is that they were expecting to triumph by a crushing margin of two or three to one – some fretted that it might only be a 20-point victory – and then suffered the double blow of a much closer result that kept the Yes movement very much alive coupled with a massive surge in SNP membership and support.)


A demented anti-SNP tactical-voting campaign for this year’s general election – led by, among others, a frothing ultra-Loyalist-nutter-type by the name of Andrew Skinner – recorded one of the most spectacular failures in history as the Nats captured 56 out of 59 Scottish seats, only narrowly missing the other three, and the party’s poll ratings have continued to rise since then.

So this week, Mr Skinner decided to try for a more manageable target.


The latest target of Skinner’s bilious wrath is that most British of institutions, the Oxford English Dictionary. Its crime is to be responsible for the Google definition of the word “subsequently”, which at the time of writing still produces this result:


His ire appears to have been triggered by a number of Newsquest newspapers – namely the Herald, the Evening Times and The National – all suddenly noticing the definition and publishing short, light-hearted pieces about it.

This in itself is odd, as Yes supporters have known about it for many months – the earliest reference we could find from a quick Twitter search was way back in January, from Buzzfeed’s Jamie Ross:


But despite Skinner’s claim of the entry being a “recent” addition, it in fact goes back a great deal further. Another quick search turned up an archive version of the OED’s online page from July 2012, more than two years BEFORE the referendum:


And people have been referring to the definition online since at least as far back as October 2010, before the SNP won a Holyrood majority and therefore before there was any realistic prospect of a referendum happening:


In other words, the OED entry clearly isn’t referring to the 2014 referendum at all, but to the vote on the original Union in 1707. And in that context it’s certainly true – the Union was only six years old when a “serious effort” was made to repeal it:


Of course, the usage example would also be empirically true if it DID refer to the 2014 vote. The poll of polls maintained by Professor John Curtice of What Scotland Thinks currently shows opinion as exactly split between Yes and No, whereas before the referendum it was consistently in favour of No – in June 2014, for example, it was 42-58, and by the eve of the vote was still 48-52.




Clearly, then, it’s a measurable and proven fact that significant numbers of Scots HAVE been changing their minds from No to Yes, whether in 1713 or 2015.

But even that rather misses the point, of course, which is that a dictionary is not an encyclopaedia. The usage of the word “subsequently” outlined in the OED definition is perfectly grammatically correct, regardless of whatever the polls say. The objection of the Pouters is not only hilariously childish, but entirely without technical foundation.

(“Pouters” is perhaps a word we should submit for inclusion.)

Slightly alarmingly, though, it appears as though the OED may have bowed to political intimidation. The online definition has now changed, though we can’t say for sure why. (We’ve dropped them a line inquiring politely about it.)


But while we couldn’t care less about the entry itself – we’ve had our laughs – it would be a sad day indeed if one of the great institutions of the English language was able to be so easily pushed around by a bunch of swivel-eyed mental cases.

And if you think that’s a harsh characterisation, take a few moments to enjoy some of the comments made by signatories to the petition.

(The first of which, incidentally, is from a Holocaust denier who was thrown out of UKIP for being too much of a bigot, and who readers may therefore feel has something of a nerve accusing anyone else of “inflammatory language”.)


The last one might be our favourite. But we couldn’t help noticing that quite a few of the respondents appear to have need of some sort of reference book containing the correct spelling and usage of English words. Does anyone happen to know of such a publication? The one we’d normally recommend seems to have gone a bit political.


[EDIT 13 December] After we published this post Jamie Ross of Buzzfeed contacted us to show us this extract from a draft article he wrote but didn’t publish back in January when he first tweeted about it:


We’ve also now established that the online entry was changed at some time between May 29 and October 22 this year, ie at least six weeks before Skinner’s petition. So all that rage seems to have been for nothing.

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    1. 12 12 15 14:43

      Not getting over it | Speymouth

    311 to “Not getting over it”

    1. Grouse Beater says:


      What I find entertaining and refreshingly topical is how much fear – the main tactic employed to cow a nation – stuck to the Unionites now that they understand they won a vote only to lose another country.

    2. David says:

      Get an alternative petition on the go and watch it get triple their total in minutes.

    3. Hilary James says:

      I like how he set his expectations low at just 500. Maybe we should start a petition to reinstate it and suggest OD not be bullied by 325 people. I think we may just get slightly more signatories than Andrew. ?

    4. Pat Mackie says:

      I love the way they are all grouped together by times. Wee groups of ‘pouters’ all doing their syncronised signing

    5. Zen Broon says:

      Why do they act like losers? Because they are losers.
      Have you even met a nawbag that *isn’t* a loser?

    6. Patrician says:

      Unionists have been angry since the referendum was announced and they always will be angry because someone challenged their world view. This is the politics of identity, it is deeply ingrained and will never change.

      I love the comments, they show bewildering levels of cognitive dissonance, as a good example “my native language to be bastardised into either Scots… and I’m a Scotsman”. Scots who hate being Scots, UKians one and all.

      I am sure I read that definition a long time ago, so why has it suddenly caused such outrage? UKians trying to remove any trace of the Scots.

    7. Dandy Dons 1903 says:

      Freakish unionist dribblers, though i reckon quite a few of them on that list are probably fakes from GCHQ, rabid saddo nutjobs one and all. Methinks they are getting worried very worried!

    8. RogueCoder says:

      “Certainly won’t buy any of their dictionaries again”.

      Floored with laughter. Genuine tears of mirth flowing down my cheeks!

      At every opportunity the Pouters expose themselves as a bunch of crazies whose only motivation is utter hatred of the SNP. They have no rational thought process and they go from zero to maximum bile any time the letters S, N and P are strung together in a forum. The Pavlovian reaction is utterly fascinating and hilarious.

      If you ever try and have a policy conversation with them all you get is a load of bile with the usual “EU advice”, “oil” and “One party state” bollocks thrown in. Not one of them has done any actual policy research.

      Genuinely fascinated by this phenomenon. What is it that leads otherwise usually well-compensated people to utter barking, dribbling madness? If they were that passionate about the union, you’d think they’d go and do some actual research into the policy issues.

    9. Breeks says:

      My favourite is “I don’t want my native language bastardised….of pure English”.

      Ha ha ha ha. Where do you start?

      It’s too funny to take it seriously. Or should that be too sad to ridicule?

    10. Robert Peffers says:

      @Rev. Stuart Campbell:

      Ach! Rev Stu, Ye canna mak a silk purse frae a soo’s lug.

      Naither kin ye mak a sane person frae a Britnat lunatic wi an SNP BAAD bit atween its teeth.

      Let us just leave the lunatic fringe of the Unionist supporting unwashed to their uneducated excesses. There to be laughed at, as and when they open their over large mouths in order to put they rather large feet inside.

      We would not wish to remove the finest source of Scottish humour to be forever extinguished.

    11. Dandy Dons 1903 says:

      Scotchbrits or Britjocks who are beyond contempt and beyond the pale, must be horrible being these people!

    12. Pat says:

      I think it’s fear that feeds their rage. Going by the comments on that petition they accept everything they’re told whereas we tend to think “oh aye, I’ll go and check that”. I even do this with Wings posts and I think the Rev would expect no less.

      I particularly like the indy supporting posts on that site, some people has a wonderful sense of humour.

    13. Scots Wa Hey says:

      On the subject of History being rewritten see above
      William Defoe the writer and sent to Edinburgh as a spy
      Reported that on the day of the Union there was great sadness among the common people the Gentry had all left for London to seek grace and favor ” never had he seen folk so keen to cut the throat of their fellow Gentleman for some English gold” definition of Proud Scots right there

    14. Angie Birnie says:

      Hahahaha, I am not an overly clever person but I thought we were voting for independence, not Snp. The comments are mostly about hate for the Snp and the sentence in the Oxford dictionary are about voting for Independence.

    15. CameronB Brodie says:

      “I’m tired of History being re-written by nationalists.”

      Mr. Archibald doesn’t appear particularly self-aware, IMHO. 😉

      @ Mr. Archibald, do you agree that Scotland was extinguished in 1707?

    16. Stephen McDonald says:

      I’d like OED to highlight that their original entry preceded the referendum and also that the entry had no reference to the SNP rather than allow these knuckle draggers to think that they’ve won some moral victory.

    17. Bill Dale says:

      There are plenty of No voters around still though.

      In the post office this morning, two ladies “of a certain age” were loudly discussing how much less Scotland gets now that the oil price is so low. I politely told them that Scotland gets no benefit from oil, all the revenues flow to Westminster.

      “Ah, but we were told that was the reason we should be independent, and look how low the price is now!” I pointed out that any revenue from oil was presented as a bonus during the referendum and that no-one on the YES side had said anything else.

      I suggested that they might like to check their facts before making such sweeping statements. This was met with scorn from the two, who said, “but whose facts”!

      This is a measure of the extent of “brainwashing” (there is no other word for it), that the average Scots NO voter has accepted. Just as in the referendum, they refuse to engage with anything which does not fit with their own preconceived versions of the facts.

      Challenge each and every false statement that you hear, eventually some people will realise that they have presented been misled. It is not an instant conversion. After all, you are asking people to give up their entire belief system.

    18. K1 says:

      May I suggest that folks dig out any hard copies of the Oxford dictionary to see if the definition of ‘subsequently’ has the original example regarding Scots changing their minds about the Union?

      Especially much older editions. This would GIRUT. Which would be eminently satisfying.

      As for the subsequent alteration in definition by that ‘great institution’?

      If they have knelt in obedience to the outcry of a crazed political cult called the ‘Unionists’, then we are in serious trouble: will these ‘Unionists’ be scouring all dictionaries and have any definition that includes the word ‘Scots’ removed?

      Seriously, we have to get out of this crazy cults grip.

    19. Betsy says:

      If you want an even bigger laugh click through to the full Ian Smart article (1st boxed quote above). It’s a peach, we all get things wrong sometimes but Smart really shouldn’t take up fortune telling. Who knew it was possible to get so much so wrong? Amazing.

    20. Patrician says:

      The quote here is a 2010 mention:

      So it looks like it is quite old, possibly a quotation from an earlier book.

    21. Fred says:

      Strange the predominance of redneck locations where they have wan eyebrow n wan granny!

    22. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dandy Dons 1903 says: 12 December, 2015 at 1:22 pm:

      ” … Methinks they are getting worried very worried!”

      They have in fact been worried for a very long time, Dandy Dons.

      “Little Englanders”, (even those amongst them claiming to be Scots), are enraged, angered and confused as their ideas of World Domination of the British Empire shrink in upon themselves as their, “Little England”, becomes a reality.

      Their abject terror is of an England actually standing alone which has become a reality they cannot countenance.

    23. Matt Seattle says:

      Yes, ‘Pouters’ along with ‘Yoons’ should join the neologisms of 2016 (I hear they need a concussionist)

    24. Almannysbunnet says:

      Maybe we need some alternative suggestions to help these diddies out:-
      Labour started out as a socialist partly but subsequently became a red tory party.
      Alistair Carmichael denied any knowledge of a politically motivated false leak but subsequently admitted he lied.
      The leaders of the three (then) main political parties promised the Vow, subsequently they denied the vow.
      I used to watch the BBC, then I realized they lie, subsequently I come to Wings for factual information.

    25. caz-m says:

      I would say Andrew Marr is the man who really detests being born a Scot.

      If anyone could change their country of birth from Scotland to England, it would be Andrew Marr.

      No matter how hard you try to disown your country of birth Andrew , you will always be known as a Scot.

      Which doesn’t suit any of us, does it?

    26. Balaaargh says:

      I like the one who cries the SNP racist bigoted thugs then demands a wall be built to keep them inferior scumbags out.

      From the safety of O’Fallon, Missouri.

    27. Clapper57 says:

      Rite is ‘right’ , tierd is ‘tired ‘, tge is ‘the ‘ ??????

      In the name o the wee man …..get a grip….have they nae brains…if they cannae spell difficult words….use a DICTIONARY….Jeeso/Jeezo/Jeesso ( how dae yae spell it ) ? ….

      ffs…..come oan….ma cat can even spell these big words…..come oan…yae have let yir side doon….BIG TIME….expected mair that’s all….Ya onions.

      So is Onion now ‘Union ‘ , cause if you peel away all the layers does it know make yir eyes water all this Sheeeeite ( How dae yae spell it ) ?…….

    28. James B says:

      Even with the evidence that the example in the dictionary almost certainly refers to events that occurred in the 18th century, the Pouters are so full of rage they’d still call it SNP propaganda.

      Most of those posts are probably fake (least I hope they are), but my favourite is from Minnesota demanding a wall is built to keep the ‘inferior scumbags out’. Anyone know where Trump was a couple days ago?

    29. Ruby says:

      Independence vote must be won ‘by a mile’

      SCOTTISH Tory leader Ruth Davidson is to warn that the pro-UK cause needs to win the independence referendum “by a mile” if it is to ensure stability in Scotland and avoid further constitutional warfare with the SNP after the vote.

      “Victory for the UK in the referendum must be emphatic – it can’t be by an inch, it must be by a mile – to provide the stability essential for our continued prosperity,” she will say.

      They didn’t win by a mile they won by about 6″ and even that seems to be shrivelling up! It’s probably only about 1″ now!

      Alaistair Darling also said something.

    30. Johnny says:

      One of my favourites included the idea that independence supporters would seize on the example to ‘prove’ support had gone up. No, there are things called polls for analysing that.

      I was so amused to find out that examples in dictionaries have to be things that *actually* happened. Presumably the petitioners will be asking for details of the crime committed leading to the arrest in the new example and asking for it to be removed when they find out it is made up? Otherwise, surely the dictionary is telling lies about the level of crime in the UK? 🙂

    31. Legerwood says:

      Looking at some of these posts it would appear that many of these people need to close the dictionary and open a book on English usage paying particular attention to the chapters on the apostrophe, sentence construction and verb tenses.

    32. Joe Tooz says:

      Frothers and Fear.
      A quite superb combination of very angry people looking ahead knowing the game is up.
      Hepburn ‘OBE’ is the best of the lot.

    33. ArtyHetty says:

      Ooo they are getting fidgety indeed. I love the last one. We, don’t like the unionists doing all they can to ruin our country!

    34. yesindyref2 says:

      Aw, Bless!

    35. heedtracker says:

      Lovely people. I like the one about building a wall to keep out racist bigoted thugs, or more accurately build a gigantic wall to “keep these inferior scumbags out!!!” of where, England? Scotland, presumably.

      The union is secure.

    36. Richardinho says:

      To be fair to these petitioners, it’s probably the first time a lot of them have opened up a dictionary so you can understand why they might be confused.

    37. MickCalder says:


      Got my sweeties this morning, thanks Stu ?

    38. Chitterinlicht says:


      You can almost hear their fingernails slipping as they try desperatley and ever more angrily to cling on to some mucked up paradigm of what they think is great about Great Britain.


    39. crazycat says:

      Speaking of “crazies whose only motivation is utter hatred of the SNP”, I parked at a Post Office near where I live yesterday, and the car in front of mine had the number plate SN** BAD – I’ve used asterisks for the digits to avoid making the owner identifiable.

      Moments later, the driver returned to his vehicle and I recognized him as a former Labour councillor for the ward. “SNP bad” is perhaps our shorthand for their attitude, rather than something they actually say, so it could just have been a coincidence, but…..

    40. Almannysbunnet says:

      Why don’t they just admit it. What they really want is the word Scotland and anything associated with it expunged.
      The only thing they’d find a dictionary useful for is as a press for their personally annotated version of the butcher’s apron.

    41. Macart says:

      Aye, they could do wi’ a chill pill right enough.

      How and ever, the evidence is the evidence and that does indeed point to the fact that there has been steady movement toward a change in voting attitudes in the instance of a second referendum.

      Perhaps if the unionists and their caring, sharing, fuzzy, government of better togetherness were to keep their promises…? Perhaps prevent their press from printing racist commentary. End the socially divisive strategy of demonising half a nation for their belief they should govern themselves, then there may be a lessening of that drift.

      As for the balloons banging on about SNP propaganda? They’re no the sharpest knives in the drawer. With 99.9% of both broadcast and print media firmly in the unionist camp, just how are the SNP reaching those livingrooms or indeed influencing national institutions such as the OED?

      Could it be actions speak louder than words? One government and those who support it are seen to walk the walk as well as talk the talk. The other has spent most of its time in the past year making life misery for those supposedly under its care, involving itself in marginalizing, disenfranchising and criminalizing the least able in our society. They reward with ennoblement the undeserving, whilst starving the poor, all the while manipulating public opinion with their dog whistle media. They tell you who to hate, who to love, who to vote for and of course who to invade.

      In short, there’s less and less to find appealing with their political union by the day, certainly not their OWN biggoted, close minded actions and those of the system of government they are wedded to. Yet STILL for all of this they blame the SNP.

      If they are looking to blame anyone for the drift of vote and opinion they need look no further than the nearest mirror.

    42. Ruby says:

      Earlier posts should have said Alaistair Darling also said something similar

      Alistair Darling said his side had to “win well” to head off calls for another poll, the so-called “neverendum”.

      He added: “I do think that we [the Unionists] need to win well because I do not think that it will do Scotland any good to be talking about the constitution year after year while parking big issues like how do we improve our health, our education or our transport, because frankly, lots of big issues are not getting the attention they deserve because so much in Scotland is seen through the prism of the constitution.”

      But he refused to be drawn on what percentage of the vote he thought necessary to prevent calls for another referendum within just a few years. “I will tell you the day after what number we were aiming for,” he said.

      The problem is they didn’t win well and they didn’t win by a mile.

    43. alexicon says:

      John Dunn a proud Scotsman.
      Wooaaaah the best laugh I’ve had all morning.

    44. Les Wilson says:

      Whay I find sad, is so many of the moaners are here in Scotland, although some may not be of course.
      But it is the case that a number of Scots who prefer to be ruled and constantly robbed by another Nation, and that is sad. Cringe rules.

    45. ArtyHetty says:

      Regards Ruth Davison and her ‘victory’ for Ukok, she really means for England.

      Victory, what an old fashioned sounding word that seems. What an old fashioned party the tories really are.

      I wonder who’s ‘prosperity’ Ruthie is really talking about? It certainly can’t be Scotland’s if her party and red liebour have anything to do with it.

    46. Richardinho says:

      Serious question: How many of the folk on that petition genuinely thought that the SNP actually inserted the offending statement into the OED?

      A worrying amount of them I suspect.

    47. Joemcg says:

      I’m naturally suspicious and still cannot believe we lost the vote. How can the SNP sweep the board at the GE shortly after yes was defeated? Surely the unionist parties should have won more than 3 seats seeing as they polled 55%. Even factoring in the three party split? Still think it stinks and don’t get me started on the fantasy figure of 800,000 postal votes out of our tiny population.

    48. Lesley-Anne says:

      In response to Colin Gray of Kirkcaldy, United Kingdom:

      If you think we are being turned into North Korea then you will undoubtedly be pleased to know that *ahem* WE have the Hydrogen bomb!

      In reply to Donald Lafferty of Ellon, United Kingdom:

      Sieg Heil!
      Seig Heil!
      Seig Heil!

      In response to everyone else from somewhere, United Kingdom:

      Damn those SNP types.
      They are unbelievable!
      They are underhanded!
      They are despicable!

      and they are doing it all … DELIBERATELY! 😀

    49. Proud Cybernat says:

      What is it with these ultra-mental cases? Why can’t they see that what they are against is being perpetrated upon them by what they support. They are not known as BritNats for nothing. But whereas Scottish Nationalism is of the civic, inclusive variety, British Nationalism (as anyone can see fromt he zoomer-quotes above) is the ultra-right wing, soil and blood ethnic variety. Why can’t these idiots see that? (Oh, I just answered my own question there, didn’t I).

      BTW – I see ‘cybernat’ is now in the OED as is ‘indyref’. Let’s petition them to also include ‘Britnat’ and ‘sabernat’. Oh and ‘swivel-eyed zoomer’ would be good as well.

      Eejits. (Is that word in the OED?)

      Get back to the kitchen and iron your butcher’s aprons. (Note: take it off FIRST).

    50. Robert Peffers says:

      @Legerwood says: 12 December, 2015 at 1:51 pm:

      “Looking at some of these posts it would appear that many of these people need to close the dictionary and open a book on English usage paying particular attention to the chapters on the apostrophe, sentence construction and verb tenses.”

      Indeed so, Legerwood, and as for split infinitives they really needs must look in the bottle, in the packing case, in the container, in the hold of the ship at the bottom of the North Sea.

    51. msean says:

      Try as I might,I can’t see ‘snp’ or ‘nationalist’ anywhere in that definition,but it crops up all over those responses.

      I have never been to North Korea,or lived under a dictatorship,but I’m sure it is nothing like living in modern Scotland. Those familiar with Mr Orwells’ writings will surely be aware of where trying to control what goes into a dictionary may lead.

    52. Ronnie says:

      Pity that Mr Skinner didn’t refer to said dictionary – or any other, for the correct spelling of ‘misled’.

    53. heedtracker says:

      How can the SNP sweep the board at the GE shortly after yes was defeated?

      Probably because vast majority of Scots still want devo-max and now we know we’re not getting it.

      And BBC style full on Project Fear was notable for its absence at the May GE, which makes sense considering the diversity of opponents to red/blue tory rule the BBC have to smack down.

      So next year Projec Fear 2, starting in January and culminating in another full on hysterical SNP bad BBC terrorising like last two weeks of referendum campaign, is now being prepared.

      If they cant get SLabour back in this time, they know it’s all over. Hopefully the SNPouters will do their tactical thing again too.

    54. Ruby says:

      ArtyHetty says:
      12 December, 2015 at 2:16 pm
      Regards Ruth Davison and her ‘victory’ for Ukok, she really means for England.

      Ruby Replies

      “She will tell English party colleagues at the conference that if victory is to be achieved in 2014, their backing in the campaign would be necessary.”Victory for the UK in the referendum must be emphatic – it can’t be by an inch, it must be by a mile – to provide the stability essential for our continued prosperity,” she will say.She will add: “And that is where you can help.

    55. maureen says:

      That just made me laugh and laugh and laugh! Nearly as funny as the snp are all robots post.

    56. MJS Dundee says:

      Thanks Stu, reading the very cream of Onionist intellect is a fine way of cheering a cold damp winter’s day.

      … But they’re rite, it’s just not write. Toterly rong in feckt.

      Curious that the focus of their froth is over the word “subsequent” – could that be because they, like us, have got a pretty good idea of what comes next?

      Having exhausted every cheat:

      … Beep beep beep, (Onionist) Game Over. Please insert coin to be a nation again.

    57. Graham MacLure says:

      Yes. I have often wondered at these people as seen through the letters page in the Press snd Journal the odd time I look at it. It would seem to be the same people writing in constantly on the same theme with the same flimflam arguments couched in , Alex Salmond BAD, SNP BAD, Wind Turbines BAD or another Referendum Bad……… Yet at the same time does that not apply equally well to the Press and Journal?

    58. Roger Mexico says:

      “Pouters” is perhaps a word we should submit for inclusion

      The dictionary people are ahead of you already:

      someone with a habitually sullen or gloomy expression
      one of a breed of pigeon that enlarge their crop until their breast is puffed out

      The OED only gives the second definition on its Language matters site, but that is its cut-down version of its dictionaries (they want you to pay for the full experience). The main entries probably have definition 1 as well, but if not they can always take you usage as a good example.

      Of course one of the things the OED is very keen on is identifying the first usage of a word and the original sentence may well have dated from around 1710 (though it feels more modern) and so been the first. (‘Subsequent’ seems older, but the adverb may be later). Maybe someone with access could check.

      Incidentally the second line above ‘adverb’ is the pronunciation ‘represent[ing] the standard accent of English as spoken in the south of England (sometimes called Received Pronunciation or RP)’ using a form of International Phonetic Alphabet. It’s to help people who don’t know how to pronounce a word.

    59. caz-m says:

      Proud Cybernat 2.18pm.
      “BTW – I see ‘cybernat’ is now in the OED as is ‘indyref’. Let’s petition them to also include ‘Britnat’ and ‘sabernat’. Oh and ‘swivel-eyed zoomer’ would be good as well.”

      And don’t forget the old Wings word from a few years ago:-


      This was a personal favourite of the Revs.

    60. Peter Newling says:

      These rabid unionist activists are certifiable, but do provide a laugh. Brilliant piece, well done Wings.

      Off Topic, I am surprised not to hear more on two aspects of the Carmichael judgment.

      1) Tim Morrison says that Carmichael did declare during the Orkney Hustings that he would never leak a document [the words which the judgment said would have lost him the case]. Tragically, the remark was not included in the petition.
      2) Craig Murray’s blog refers to the “conduct” part of the crucial “false statement of fact in relation to character or conduct”. The Channel 4 statement was ruled not to relate to character..but how can it possibly not relate to conduct? Why did the Judges ignore the “conduct” part of the Act’s words?

    61. Robert Peffers says:

      @Macart says: 12 December, 2015 at 2:10 pm

      ” … Perhaps if the unionists and their caring, sharing, fuzzy, government of better togetherness were to keep their promises…? Perhaps prevent their press from printing racist commentary. End the socially divisive strategy of demonising half a nation for their belief they should govern themselves, then there may be a lessening of that drift.”

      Perhaps, Macart, you may not have noticed yesterday’s news, (it applies only to England).

      Council House Tenants in England are likely to lose the right to stay in their homes for life. An amendment to, “The Housing Bill”, currently going through the de facto parliament of England at Westminster will limit occupation rights for new tenancies to five years at most.

      If ever there was a government intent upon divide and conquer this one is it. It should stir up much anti-Tory fury in England but probably never even be noticed my most.

    62. Hoss Mackintosh says:


      The Ian S Smart comments are comedy gold…

      “Essentially, the Tories just want to save the Union. We do as well, but we have a further objective and that is in destroying the SNP.”

      Not turning out very well for SLAB then?

      But it is revealing to see how far the SNP have come over the last few years and how SLAB have declined.

      SLAB have not hit rock bottom yet and their collapse will continue for years to come aided by their all consuming hatred of the SNP and their sycophantic support from BBC PQ.


    63. Dr Jim says:

      We all make the odd spelling mistake, that’s pretty normal, but I have noticed the Yoons for some reason seem to make a regular feature of it, and the thing is in some strange way they’re always the same spelling mistakes, like it’s the same person writing thousands of Tweets and messages all over the Internet

      It’s led me to believe that it’s a two or three people conspiracy, maybe there are only really a handful of Yoons left beavering away keeping the Yoon faith and all these names are aliases and really we’re so far ahead that we should just have another Referendum right away before the Yoons decide to multiply

      Maybe a new entry into the Dictionary would help speed things along now that the poor Yoons are on their knees screeching again

      What on earth are they going to be like when we win the next Referendum, the noise will be deafening, the heart attacks rampant, our health service will be overrun by distressed Rangers supporters (unless it’s a Saturday, too busy) gnashing of teeth and tearing of hair

      Of course if my theory is correct, there are only a handful of Yoons left so no need to worry I suppose

    64. Joemcg says:

      “Win by a mile” equals “once in a generation/lifetime”

    65. George Winkle says:

      The most entertaining piece I have read in weeks. Me thinks they do protest overmuch; could they be worried about something?

    66. Ealasaid says:

      As I recall we came across that entry in school in the 1970s. Yes it was before the internet and we actually used dictionaries at that time.

      I remember we were a bit miffed but put it down as a similar insult to the Scots as ‘the rebellious scots’ in the National anthem.

      Now it seems that it is those that love the National anthem that are complaining!


    67. HeehawBaws says:

      I know of someone who has “changed their minds” so is it accurate.

    68. heedtracker says:

      Off Topic, I am surprised not to hear more on two aspects of the Carmichael judgment.

      I refer my honorable friend to the case posted earlier. Not even sure if neo fascists at the Heil can work it out.

    69. ScottishPsyche says:

      This inability to move on for the Unionists is indicative of a mind set where any change is perceived as a threat. There are a few studies mostly done in the US which show right wing, conservative types are extremely threatened and anxious by new ideas and need to preserve the status quo.

      Unionists of ‘left’ and right appear to be in the same bracket.

      They have a need for the apparatus of state approval – degrees, qualifications, awards, approval by the establishment (MSM press). Hence something like that appearing in the OED disturbs them to their very core. The anxiety on display by older No’s is almost palpable.

      The constant denigration of the Yes side as stupid and uneducated fits into that view of the world. The same thing is happening with Corbyn.

      It is fascinating and if anything the referendum has highlighted the fragile tools that the establishment uses to exert control.

      For example,imagine trying to shut down the idea of independence using graphs and being taken seriously by the establishment.

    70. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      @ Bill Dale says:

      When in a queue at M & S I had a copy of The National and was reading it. A well heeled lady of a certain age asked what it was and I told her.

      She began to change colour and said in a loud voice that the oil will run out in 2 years time. Alaister Darling said so. I pointed out the big new field west of Orkney and new techniques to extract more from existing fields. She was adamant that I was lying. The only answer to that sort of person is time and the Great Reaper.

      I just hope the generation under her cal be held by YES and not allowed to be fingers in ears don’t rock the boaters.

    71. DerekM says:

      my god what a shower of imbeciles i bet this lot are the kind who watch a TV program that warns you of bad language,nudity and violence then write in to complain about the bad language,nudity and violence instead of not watching it, or as i like to call them the Mary Whitehouse brigade.

    72. Macart says:

      @Robert Peffers

      I’d heard of the likelihood of this bill being on the boards a while back Robert. Finally getting round to it are they?

      As I said – caring, sharing and fuzzy.

      If those ‘proud’ Scots above think they are beyond the reach of such legislation because they live in Scotland, they’d best remember what Westminster ‘gifts’, it can just as easily repeal. Or that should some day a unionist party finds itself in power at Holyrood they won’t seek to bring legislation in line with Westminster… well let’s just say those scenarios are best avoided altogether.

    73. Joemcg says:

      Why have they all stated United Kingdom after their town or city? Can’t even bear to type the S word?

    74. Kennedy says:


      Thanks for the sweeties Rev. The kids enjoyed the taste of justice. Mrs K requests chocolate next time we bail you out.

    75. Charles mc says:

      Yeah this was retweetedby someone who I have now unfollowed.

    76. BJ says:

      To Steven Earle Coalsnaughton, you had better stop reading Google, it’s on there as well.

    77. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Most of those posts are probably fake”

      No. As I say in the caption, I left out the joke ones people put in after I tweeted the link yesterday.

    78. caz-m says:

      Robert Peffers 2.42pm

      Re: Five your tenancy in England.

      This will be to tie in with there big push for the “right to buy” policy that they have in England. It is aimed at cutting the Housing Benefit bill.

      So this five year rule must be to give you the opportunity to buy your house and IF you don’t buy it, then you get kicked out to give somebody else the chance to buy it.

      We are only six months into this Tory Government and the future doesn’t look too good.

      Please Mr Cameron, I want to leave this Union. I don’t like it now?

    79. Lesley-Anne says:

      Kennedy says:
      12 December, 2015 at 2:59 pm


      Thanks for the sweeties Rev. The kids enjoyed the taste of justice. Mrs K requests chocolate next time we bail you out.

      Nice idea Kennedy but I’m not so sure it would arrive in one piece … more likely broken or melted! 😉

      I forgot to say thanks for the Fizzers in my post on the previous thread. My partner, Big Fi 😉 , says she is enjoying them a treat! 😀


      I get the badge and SHE nicks the sweets!

      Well she is bigger than me so I guess arguing wi her is oot the question then. 😀

    80. galamcennalath says:

      It is a very odd situation. I suspect a lot of naesayers realise with great clarity that they won the numerical vote, but lost absolutely everything else.

      They know that they used negativity, scaremongering and deceit. And, continue to do the same as they attempt to thwart the SNP and the Indy cause.

      They know they made and make no positive case for the Union because there is none.

      As stated, the outcome was not what the expected or wanted. The future is simply not theirs.

      Bitterness, frustration, anger, and aggression. They have nothing else left.

    81. mealer says:

      I think their anger is born out of fear.They know full well how fragile the current constitutional arrangement is.

    82. MrObycyek says:

      I am starting to understand why all the No voters are getting so desperate.

      Imagine fighting an enemy that can take anything you throw at it and continues to advance on you slowly but surely. No matter what you attack it with it just shrugs it off and keeps coming at you just as if it has not been hurt at all. Imagine having the whole establishment behind you and yet it making no difference as the enemy still advances. You fight and you scream but like in a nightmare the enemy keeps coming at you until it finally grabs you and squeezes the life from you. It must be truly frightening to be a Unionist, however, unfortunately for them their beloved Union will one day be put out of its misery and it cannot come soon enough.

      Please continue to give us everything you have got NO voters as it has proven to be so effective so far! Ha ha. We can take it and give it back with a smile.

      “There is one thing stronger than all the armies in the world, and that is an idea whose time has come.”

    83. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Hepburn ‘OBE’ is the best of the lot.”

      When you say “Hepburn” do you mean “McIntyre”?

    84. Juteman says:

      …..subsequently, we changed it due to Pouter(noun-wanker) pressure.

    85. BJ says:

      They update it now and then so maybe we’ll see telling “Carmichaels” as being synonymous with lies being added.

    86. heedtracker says:

      This inability to move on for the Unionists is indicative of a mind set where any change is perceived as a threat.

      Lets face it, the UKOK mindset on these boards exactly matches that of the BBC in Scotland, STV and all the local and national press.

      Its how they can do what they do.

      Its not political coruption or relentless lies pouring out of Scotland’s newsrooms, its the above mentality, attacking any threat in Scotland, from SNP to cybernats.

      Its probably what found Carmichael not guilty, or Andy Coulson, ex Prime minister spin doctor. Anything goes. Coulson gave evidence against a man who was found guilty. Coulson was let off because his evidence did not affect the outcome of the trial, having already been found guilty of perjury in an English court.

      Its all in the UKOK mind.

      Thanks very much for my WoS badge and the Freedom Fizzers!

    87. caz-m says:

      I would say that at this present moment in time, the YES vote is ahead of the NO vote.

      And that is when the price of oil is sitting at under $40 dollars a barrel and there is hardly a YES badge in site.

      Just wait till we get really started.

      The Union is finished, it’s just a question of how long it has to go.

    88. Xaracen says:

      “(I hear they need a concussionist)”

      I think the modern term coined by the late Terry Pratchett is “retrophrenologist”. 😀

    89. Keith Hynd says:

      The way back machine link don’t work no more! Mr Skinner may have some influence.

      The petition page is becoming even more entertaining now, as it seem certain people are simply signing to further annoy the Yoons with comments to the contrary 🙂

    90. Albaman says:

      Think I’ll email this article to the “Oxford Univercity Press”, ought to give em a laugh eh ?.

    91. Thepnr says:

      I was out with my son today and settled in for a couple of pints at the local hostelery. Since I’m I hated smoker I had to step outside for a necessary puff to feed my addiction.

      Anyways, got chatting to an older chap, a regular frequenter of that pub and a staunch socialist and Labour supporter, he told me.

      “I’m coming around to your way of thinking, we will get nowhere wi the Tories in power and Labour are useless and appear to be no better. I think your right! Only with Independence will we ever get the government that Scotland votes for. I’ve changed my mind”

      Subsequently, I shook his hand and said Thanks.

    92. Lollysmum says:

      Just done a check on some of the names & frighteningly enough it would appear that these are real people. Frightening because these people can be so ignorant of their own country & what WM is deliberately doing to it’s people to keep it subjugated & acting as a cash cow to continually add to Treasury coffers.

      Guess this must be the more literate examples of Record, Herald & P&J readerships 🙂

      Such sad people

    93. James B says:

      No. As I say in the caption, I left out the joke ones people put in after I tweeted the link yesterday.

      Ahh, sorry. Was on iPad so didn’t see the caption. Wow. All I can write really.

    94. Lollysmum says:

      Err Rev-where’s my badge? Feeling left out now 🙁

    95. Sheryl Hepworth says:

      OT. Thanks for the wee parcel, arrived this morning!! Wearing my badge with pride Stu and the sweeties were good, I think? My Grand-daughters enjoyed them anyway!! As for the OED… OXFORD ENGLISH Dictionary… says it all. OXBRIDGE rules don’t ya know!!!!

    96. galamcennalath says:

      caz-m says:

      “I would say that at this present moment in time, the YES vote is ahead of the NO vote.”

      With my generally optimistic view of events, I agree.

      What makes me even more optimistic is that BetterTogether campaigning against Indy and Project Fear never really stopped. However, there is virtually no campaign for Indy at present. So for Indy to have moved up beside, and possible ahead, is remarkable.

      Just think how Yes will move when serious campaigning begins again?

      My view is that we actually need some gentle background campaigning to begin soon, just to keep the metal warm.

    97. Bill Dale says:

      @BTP – I presume that you were in M & S for the purposes of tracking down and educating NO voters, since M & S are one of the NO supporting stores that we now boycott, along with ASDA, Tesco, Sainsburys, B&Q etc.

      BTW, this is not intended as a joke, we do boycott these stores.

    98. frogesque says:

      Sorry, I can’t remember which ‘winger’ coined it, but could we also submit “rentahonk” for inclusion within that illustrious tome?

      Rentahonk,n, a person of Unonist persuation employed or interviewed by the BBC to shout ‘SNPEEE BAAD’ in front of a fluffy microphone (wind jammer).

    99. Brian says:

      Thanks Stuart – this really made me laugh. And some of those tweets…hilariously funny.

    100. Joemcg says:

      Bumped in to one of these angry unionists in morningside a week prior to the vote. A wee specky red faced pensioner.I was wearing the dark blue yes 14 shirt and I noticed his UKOK badge. I smiled to him politely as we boarded the bus and as I walked past him sitting he said a loudly audible “wanker.” Still chuckle to myself!

    101. Thepnr says:

      No sweat Lollysmum, Santa hasn’t delivered to me either 🙁

      “The reward for work well done is the opportunity to do more.”
      Jonas Salk (American Scientist)

      Just keep doing what your doing, preferebly with a smile, as will I.

    102. Thepnr says:

      Then again, I didn’t request a “perk” bugger, could have given it to the wife for her Xmas LOL.

    103. Thepnr @ 3.41. Yiv made my day, thanks.

    104. mike cassidy says:

      Here’s a scary thought.

      In an independent Scotland those people would be living here – and voting!

    105. Ronnie says:

      Now Rev Stu had some hammers,
      And he hammered out some badges,
      He hammered all the day,
      And most of the night.

      They’re the Badges of Justice,
      They’re the Hammers of Freedom,
      It’s all about the love between my brothers and my sisters,
      On Wings Over Scotland.

      Apologies to Peter, Paul and Mary.

      Thanks, Stu.

    106. Mark Coburn says:

      As someone who has done a significant amount of canvassing since the referendum I can categorically state that I’ve canvassed people, some of whom who have indeed SUBSEQUENTLY changed their minds. One elderly lady, sweet, if a little right-wing did refer to David Cameron as a tosser.

      I definitely did smile at that.

    107. Iain says:

      Sadly it just confirms my theory that all Scots no voters are thick as two short planks.

    108. mealer says:

      Ronnie 4.29
      You get a point for trying!

    109. Iain says:

      Mike Cassidy 4.24.
      It’s as about as reassuring as the thought of Donald Trump having his finger on the nuclear button.

    110. caledonia says:

      Have not read all the posts since the footie started COYR
      anyway has anyone started a poll against their poll as that would be so funny

    111. Iain says:

      Have you noticed that all the rich and successful countries, are the wee ones!

    112. Bob Mack says:

      No doubt there is a queue to complain about the words Jacobite, Scotland, and even independence.

      It is a sad and lonely life they lead to spend time doing these things.The level of anger,frustration and fear is very palpable

    113. Not Convinced says:

      MrObycyek said on 12 December, 2015 at 3:20 pm :-
      Imagine fighting an enemy that can take anything you throw at it and
      continues to advance on you slowly but surely. No matter what you attack it
      with it just shrugs it off and keeps coming at you just as if it has not
      been hurt at all.

      What they don’t seem to have realised is that the way they are fighting is actually helping to product that result! As evidence of this I produce myself. I moved to Scotland after the last Holyrood elections but before the referendum. At the time I didn’t really have an opinion on Scottish independence beyond “If the people of Scotland want independence, then obviously they should have it.”, however IndyRef1 meant I was “forced” to come up with an opinion …

      I wasn’t moved from a “Don’t know” to a “Voting Yes and joining the SNP” solely, or even largely by what the SNP and Yes Scotland where saying. It was what Better Together and their supporters online where saying that convinced me of where I stood – I’d been under the impression that a reasonable, positive case for the union could be made[1], however the complete failure of anyone (from David Cameron to even attempt to make such a case rather convinced me that there was no positive case for the union! In which case, there was very little point in remaining in it!

      As an aside, I tend to think that Her Majesty’s comment about how she hoped people would think carefully wasn’t nearly as pro-union as some unionists like to believe. IndyRef was an important, potentially life-changing decision so of course people should think carefully about what it would mean and the pros & cons of each possible answer. An as people who believe in independence we should want people to think about it because any kind of thinking tended to hole Better Together’s case below the waterline in a non-trivial fashion! 😀

      [1] Something along the lines of “We’re better together. Economies of Scale, being part of a larger cooperative nation, Scotland punching above it’s weight militarily and diplomatically” etc etc

    114. Wuffing Dug says:

      What is it with these yoons? I read through the above, wish I hadn’t.

      What a malaise, what a display of toe curling externalised self loathing.

      My god, their minds are actually diseased, addled, rotten, corrupted, chronically infected with British propaganda.

      Wanting a dictionary definition changed on the basis of some spurious interpretation? What the actual fuck?

      They are also collectively narcissistic and psychopathic, projecting their vile behaviors on us.

      Their increasing discomfort is an encouraging sign though.

      You have to wonder though, what’s next from these wankers, shills and deniers?

      It’s not funny any more – some of the stuff could be attributable to individuals with various levels of personality disorder / mental illness. Who would pursue such an aim as above? Crazy.


      Was out last night, woke up at 10am – grumpy, groggy – a general ‘pissed off’ hangover – nae sore heid though thank god.

      Eventually managed to shift, dragged my arse doon the stairs.

      Went to the front door, the only mail was a small brown jiffy bag. Intrigued I opened it up.

      Man was I smiling when I opened it, made my day – hangover gone.
      Wings badge, cards and ‘swedgers’ inside.

      Thank you Stu and thank you Wings.

      Cards are on display, being supported by my Inveraray driftwood piper in the kitchen. Think I’ll get myself a nice retro denim jaikit to put my badge on, along with the one Ronnie very kindly gifted to me.

      Yoons a ragin’ it’s nae funny, only kiddin

      Happy days 🙂

    115. Kenny says:

      When you see the amount of money being donated to pay the legal fees of the Orkney Four and ensure they do not go under for their brave stance, you know that the country is stirring, is on the march and there is as much chance of the tides stopping flowing as there is of us getting back into our box and not moving on towards controlling our own destinies.

      Really incredible to see so many donations of £100… But what impressed me most of all was one donation of £3. Everyone pulling their weight and adding what they can, no matter if big or small, for everyone it is big…

      And I can tell you that the Orkney Four are incredibly appreciative, I think Fiona MacInnes never sleeps, answering every single message of support.

    116. Crabbit Geezer says:

      Lol these nawbags really are quite perplexed are they not?

    117. Effijy says:

      O/T Our First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon still requires 350 signatures on her petition to stop the Bombing of Innocent people
      in Syria.

      Please sign this to complete the 100,000 required.

      Sign ‘Don’t bomb Syria’ petition

    118. Hugh Kirk says:

      Such bile from those so thick.Made me smile and grimace at the same time. Also made me wonder if any of those bampots know what a dictionary is or even own one.

    119. Croompenstein says:

      England have got Wales in the Euro finals…#whotosupport

    120. Sassenach says:

      frogesque @ 4-03

      I had presumed ‘rentahonk’ had already been bestowed upon the ‘redoubtable’ J Baillie MSP, thus surely cannot now be used as a generic term!!

    121. Allan Jackson says:

      What really makes me laugh is the one important fact they seem to conveniently forget, and that is the English language as it is today is not even a proper language, it is in fact a bastard language, made of various words stolen from other languages INCLUDING SCOTS, French, German, Russian etc. etc.

    122. Breeks says:

      One of the earliest questions I ever asked online, and I comfortably beat Blair Jenkins in asking it, was hypothetically, if the Union didn’t exist, why would you invent it? I went on to challenge several unionists to present the progressive and constructive arguments why an already independent Scotland would forfeit its sovereignty to enter the Union with England which we currently “enjoy”.

      That was several years ago, and not once since, never, has anyone been able to present the positive case for Scotland’s Union with England. All you hear are belly aches about punching above our weight, being kicked out NATO, the EU, and the cricket club. Nothing, no argument which I might consider objective and constructive; THIS is why Scotland would surrender its sovereignty with a good heart… Silence. Scotland would embrace the Union because?…. Silence.

      I am quite positive the Unionist narrative, and the vice-like grip they command over broadcast media remains hysterical, alarmist and contrived because they know the whole Unionist edifice is a house of cards which could not, and will not, survive the Scottish electorate being exposed to the truth. The enemy must be demonised and the arguments charged and hysterical because rational ordered debate will surely deliver Scotland its freedom.

      Unlike many others, I don’t believe independence is inevitable. Propaganda, and the Unionist monopoly of broadcast media is a serious and powerful foe to be reckoned with. I do not want the Unionists to be panicked or alarmed by the bullshit the BBC treacles out their TV sets, I want them relaxed, unflustered, and listening to actual arguments with rational objectivity. The BBC, the papers, Westminster, and glove puppets like Darling and Danny will do all in their power to prevent such rational discourse ever being permitted to happen.

      Counter, or silence their pernicious propaganda, and Scotland has a chance. But until then, we must suffer salvo after salvo of Unionist horse shit, and it will test our spirits sorely.

    123. Rock says:

      Not Convinced,

      “As an aside, I tend to think that Her Majesty’s comment about how she hoped people would think carefully wasn’t nearly as pro-union as some unionists like to believe.”

      The purring queen is supposed to be neutral but made the statement on behalf of the unionists.

      If the Scots are “sovereign”, she should be impeached.

      But of course the Scots are not sovereign, despite some idiots banging on about their “sovereignty”.

      In practice, a Scottish dog has more “sovereignty” than a Scot.

    124. caz-m says:

      If the next Independence Referendum is triggered because the UK voted to leave the EU, then would we need a border post built at Gretna?

      Because England would stay out of Europe and we would re-apply to join Europe. Therefore, we would need border posts built to keep out a non-European nation.


      Or maybe a setup similar to the one that Sweden and Norway have or Northern Ireland and the Republic. They have open border agreements.

      Just thought I would through that scenario into the mix.

    125. Cadogan Enright says:

      Seems to me from the tone of the comments above that the BBC’s policy during the referendum to equate Independance with the SNP and the SNP with ALex Salmond who had been thoroughly demonised by that stage was a sound policy in terms of swinging the vote the BBC’s way.

      If you only read corporate media and were inclined to believe that the state broadcasteris a fair and balanced view of the world, it would not be hard to see how you would end up fulminating like the folk above.

      The question is how does one contine to chip away at these sort of folk, so they start to get other Inputs to their wee black boxes in such a manner that the tone of their Outputs change and the start fulminating against the establishment?

      Regarding the dictionaries, the rule used to be that a word had to appear in a national paper or a published book which is often referenced. However they are quite political about it. For instance;

      1. They have for some reason taken to undermining the origin of the word ‘quiz’ from its real origin as a word invented for a bet by a Dubliner and try to pretend other origins.
      2. They have ignored words like Wigery which can also be a verb as in ‘to widger’ . This word means to hold an enquiry with the intention of producing an official whitewash of a state crime.

      Though there are many words like this commonly used in English books and newspapers in Ireland, they are never picked up by the English-based dictionaries, who do pick up many other new English words generated in Ireland.

      It is likely that the usage given for ‘subsequently’ will be traced back to a well-known book or journal, and thus by changing it, they are defying an age-old policy just to keep redneck onions happy. Says a lot for their intellectual and entmological authenticity.

    126. Ken500 says:

      Top successful countries

      Norway, Switerland, Denmark, New Zealand, Sweden.

      Scotland has been held back by Westminster rule. Scotland would be much better off Independnce.
      The Referendum was not fair. It was a farce. Westminster BT/MSM broke all the rules. Scotland could be on par with Germany and in surplus. Scotland always has to pay off Westminster debts for total mismanagement by Westminster of the economy. Trident/illegal wars, tax evasion and banking fraud. Wasting £Billions and starving the vulnerable.

    127. Iain says:

      We, the Scots will seize the moment and get us out of the empire. It will happen sooner than you think..

    128. jdman says:

      “Could it be actions speak louder than words? One government and those who support it are seen to walk the walk as well as talk the talk.”

      It’ll never fly Sam

    129. heedtracker says:

      The assorted goons up there will enjoy this latest rancid The Graun troll attempt.

      More UKOK toryboy bullshit, this time on a world wide scale. Toryboys really excited about this historic climate saving agreement, full boosting by BBC creep show but in reality, toryboys have destroyed Scottish renewable energy, ended carbon capture, and Project Feared the living shit out of their Scotland region that all of the above would be lost if we voted YES.

      UKOK toryboy bullshitters on fine form today. Maybe they are just everyday rich bored maniacs, lurching around Whitehall/UKOK newsrooms.

    130. Marco McGinty says:

      Like others, I have had a good laugh reading the comments of this petition, from the comedic comments of the pro-Indy supporters, to the sheer fuckwittery of the unionist mind.

      And on the subject of the hate-filled, dim-witted unionists, sadly there are many people that hold on to such views. This is not one or two frothing imbeciles posting under many pseudonyms, but it is symptomatic of the “BritNat” idea of superiority, and as others have pointed out, they feel threatened by anything that they see as a challenge to their way of life.

      And an obvious element of racism and sectarianism as well!

    131. tarisgal says:

      “…Those of us who support the Union struggle daily to combat this sort of nonsense. Putting this in your dictionary does not help our cause in the least.” 1) why is Union capitalised? It is not a name or personal pronoun, etc. 2) the use of the word ‘struggle’ would suggest that these ‘unionists’ are fighting a war against nationalists? Really? A difference in political ideology is soooo dangerous that basically a jihad has been declared on SNP supporters? 3) The dictionary aim is to help the unionist cause? You mean like the daily newspapers, the BBC and other MSM? They should ALL support YOUR idea of a nation???

      “I do not know 1person who voted no that have changed their minds. Quite the opposite in fact. More emphatic NO then ever.” 1) Don’t think ‘even more emphatic NO is, in actuality, the ‘opposite’. 2) Does this person know EVERY person who voted ‘no’, so that this comment has some validity?

      “The SNP are a dangerous autocratic party who would remove the peoples freedoms”. 1) Is it not the tories who are removing the people’s freedoms. See their amendments to the Human Rights Act and amendments to the Trade Union Bill. Not to mention the new amendment whereby council tenents will only have the right to tenancy for 5 years??? What about all those tory freedoms being removed??

      “its just not true more people who voted for independence are now glad it did not happen.” 1) Really?? Evidence please.

      “This politically divisive ‘definition’ has NO place anywhere, never mind a dictionary – as it is a complete falsehood! Whoever decided to use this should at the very least be severely reprimanded, if not sacked – for overtly politicising, & potentially corrupting users beliefs. 1) I don’t feel my beliefs have been corrupted by this example of the usage of the word ‘subsequently’. In fact, I thought it quite a good example! 2) Has it corrupted YOUR beliefs? No… I don’t think so. You believe what you believe – even though it is wrong. But that’s not the point. 3) WHO SAYS that this usage of the word is ‘politically divisive’ or a ‘complete falsehood’?? Because YOU say so? You must show evidence of this. Simply saying it doesn’t make it so. As I see it, YOU are the divisive person, who refuses to let Scotland govern itself.

      “Keep snp Nazis out.” 1) Evidence that the SNP are indeed ‘Nazis’. 2) SNP politicians and members are Scottish same as you – with a UK passport. If born and bred here, how on earth can they be ‘kept out’?? Ellon? An area with a huge American influx. Are YOU one of them?? Or the result of an American emigrant? Perhaps it is YOU who should be ‘kept out’? Either way, if we are both legally entitled to be here, we cannot be ‘kept out’…

      “… The example provided is overtly politically biased apart from being simply untrue and a more neutral example should be provided. Perhaps you would consider the definition for “Doing Sturgeon” which means failing to answer the question asked of her, accompanied by a total failure to accept responsibility for the errors of her party…” 1) so your example wouldn’t be ‘politically biased’ then?? Err… I think it would. And to keep it ‘politically unbiased’, if any changes to the dictionary example would need to be consistent with your argument, then clearly your example doesn’t fit the bill either, so aren’t you, in fact, contradicting yourself? 2) you need to prove that your comment ‘simply untrue’ is, in fact, true. Because there is certainly evidence to prove the statement is correct (see above). 3) kindly produce evidence please that Sturgeon DOESN’T in fact answer questions or accept responsibility for the errors of her party. Evidence is readily available to prove your own political party preference is not taking responsibility for the deaths of many people due to welfare cuts, and suicides due to the overwhelming anxiety re job centre sanctions, etc.! Evidence is readily available that the new Queensferry Crossing bridge wasn’t built because it was considered a ‘vanity project’. Evidence is available that labour supported the tories in the Trident debate and the Syrian bombing… Would you perhaps care to let that old chestnust about Nicola die a death so that I don’t have to keep reminding you about YOUR party failures?

      “… intent on breaking up the longest lasting & most successful union in the world.” 1) hardly successful if nearly half the population want independence! ‘Head’, ‘sand’ seems to fit here… 2) what is wrong with breaking up a union if it is no longer fit for purpose for half of the population or is the ‘no’ position supposed to stand for all eternity just because it is how you personally want Scotland to remain? 3) is half the population not entitled to give their opinion on how they feel about the ‘successful union’ without it being cast as ‘sedition’??

      Could go on and on but not good for my blood pressure. So I’ve decided – just to LOL at this piece of fitabootery!! 😀

    132. galamcennalath says:

      Not Convinced says:

      I’d been under the impression that a reasonable, positive case for the union could be made[1], however the complete failure of anyone … to even attempt to make such a case rather convinced me that there was no positive case for the union! In which case, there was very little point in remaining in it!

      [1] Something along the lines of “We’re better together. Economies of Scale, being part of a larger cooperative nation, Scotland punching above it’s weight militarily and diplomatically” etc etc

      You confirm what I have often believed – that BetterTogether and the Tories in London converted a lot of people to YES. I even suspect they played a big part in conversion!

      The positive case for the Union is an interesting one. They could have laid out arguments, such as size mattering, military strength, security etc. However any argument I have heard is no more than a matter of opinion and the opposite could be held as an equally valid argument eg. small countries can be very successful and influencial, or well behaved countries are less of a target. UKOK military means imperial projection of power, the counter would be to say ‘not in my name’, not in my country.

      I would also say that there are many aspects of independence which the Union could not match (perhaps would not match). Examples would be a written constitution, democratic electoral system, no WMDs, improved emphasis to looking after the population as a whole rather than the elite … to name four which come to mind. UKOK cannot make a better offer than these. Simple.

      In summary, I have always seen any positive case for the Union to be open to challenge. Conversely the positive case for Indy offers things which would never happen in UKOKland.

      IMO The naesayers knew this too and therefore never even tried the positive case approach.

    133. Iain says:

      I wonder would the Tories after a unionist drubbing in May, would face reality and write off Scotland to experience.Or Would they grant Scotland independence and reign supreme in England. Or would the huge loss of income from Scotland be a burden England would not pay.

    134. Bob Mack says:

      Actually Rev if you really want to wind them up,the OED gives as example 3 for the word Nationalism

      3. As Scottish Nationalism.

      This is fun.Fancy a petition to have it changed to some other country

    135. Skooshcase says:

      Thanks, Stu, for highlighting the mindset of a faction of the No voting fraternity – shudderingly scary and heartily hilarious in equal measure!

      Since the referendum, there has been a large and notable shift in my own relationships with certain No voters. The ‘warmth’ of feeling has gone and is now down to the odd ‘Alright’ or head-nod in the passing. And, surprise-surprise, all of them are either The Rangers supporters, or Masons, and often both. And it doesn’t bother me one bit – not one fucking bit! I don’t need that bile-ridden negativity in my life. And also, if that’s their attitude, well there was no real friendship there in the beginning. So ta-ta, and GIRFUY!

      I’ve talked to others who were vocal in the Yes campaign about this phenomenon and they, too, have had similar experiences. And they, too, have the same idea, that if that’s their attitude, then they can GTF! and no skin off my nose!

      The angry Unionst Britnat Loyalist – and they won the referendum, FFS! Maybe in their red, white and blue blood they can sense that their world is, piece-by-piece, collapsing all around them. And I hope it’s really hurting….

    136. liz says:

      @heedtracker – I read that article you posted by Kev, now archived if anyone else wants to read it -

      I must say,I do not know what goes on in his head, the article is total rubbish and although he says he is still yes, he always sounds so god-damned angry.

      The most disappointing thing though is the BLC, troll after troll after troll, either that or a load of folk who haven’t got a clue.

      I remember when even if the articles were pure BritNat, the BLC was good value with decent discussion, now it’s just depressing

    137. heedtracker says:

      I must say,I do not know what goes on in his head, the article is total rubbish and although he says he is still yes, he always sounds so god-damned angry.

      I hear you Liz.

      It’s really just another neat reflection of the UKOK Britnat signatories to the above petition. Open, naked loathing of Scotland running Scotland, rancid Grain style.

      The reality is

      same red/blue tory Britnats signing up to this, having completely destroyed Scottish renewable energy future, sorry their Scotland region renewable energy future, renege on all vote NO or else promises.

      All of which is air brushed away by a staggeringly corrupt BBC, as broadsheets like Graun pour scorn on Sturgeon.

      Its another UKOK double whammy. Roll on next and last referendum.

    138. Dr Jim says:

      The more and louder the Yoons screech the more it makes me smile
      All around them they’re seeing and hearing the evidence of their own stupidity and eventually it’ll only be the total diehards who are left screeching

      I keep saying it to them every chance I get, how many of the countries of the British Empire now Independent are clamouring to come back, name one, just one, and the answer is, Aye But, Aye But, the SNP are Baad, In other words no Effing answer just more screeching

    139. Macart says:

      @John King

      Heh, that old chestnut. The SNP are good government simply to spite the Westminster parties. Oh, and because they hate the English.

      They really haven’t thought that particular brainfart through yet have they?

      Basically the opposite being if they were a normal UK party they’d be as crap at government as everyone else. They’d shaft the poor, not deliver on manifesto pledges, take cash for questions, start wars etc, etc, etc.

      FFS, they can’t even stand back for a moment and examine the logic of their propaganda. If a party is doing something the majority of the electorate find pleasing and popular, just what does that say about the institutions, policies and actions of the parties they are trying to defend?

      But no, SNP bad and they eat kittens.

    140. Marcia says:

      Dearie Me! Some of those in that petition need therapy.

      I wonder if they are allied to the Scotland in Union gang that has popped up lately. Funded by the subsequently UK Better Together Government or us taxpayers no doubt. Looking forward to an article on this ‘movement’ in the future.

    141. Wuffing Dug says:


      I’m going through the same thing.

      It’s sad deciding to end friendships or break contact with acquaintances.

      The bitterness and corrosive, sneering impotent anger is not something you want in your life though.

      New opportunities await 🙂

    142. Iain says:

      Just think, we used to swallow all the britnat shite the bum could produce, and now it’s totally disregarded. Time has moved on for Scotland. Are you going to support slab any time soon!

    143. Skooshcase says:

      @heedtracker and @liz

      More lies and misinformation from Kevin McKenna. The guy is fake, an absolute fraud.

      ‘I voted for Yes, but’ Aye, so ye did, Mc Kenna, so ye did!

      He’s been enmeshed within the Glasgow Labour Boys’ Club for so long he can’t let it go.

      But his faux article in the Guardian will get the Britnat frothers, like the ones noted in this article, pouring in, who along with the trolls will rattle up the hits for the Guardian and its advertisers – job done.

      Oh, and McKenna is also the Scottish [sic] Daily Mail’s executive editor…!

      McKenna, another in the continuing tradition of the Unionist sell-out journalist. A fake and a fraud.

    144. My fave was one of the last where they say they don’t want any bastardisations to ‘pure English’.

      I would love to see an English dictionary that only featured ‘pure English’ words.

    145. Ferncake says:

      As regards that last entry, as someone who has been resident in Dumbarton all my life I would assert that ‘Richard Jolly’ of this parish is a wholly fictitious character, as will be most, if not all, the others.

      It is also utterly inconceivable that any of the usual ‘Herald’ subjects would not appear, and yet here we have a complete cast of strangers – pish, utter pish.

    146. Iain says:

      Name one country that would rejoin the British, empire. That’s right …. none
      We will be free
      It’s up to you!
      Vote Snp,Snp

    147. Dr Jim says:

      Quick word about Kevin Mckenna

      Like an awful lot of “Journalists” these days who are hanging on to their jobs by their fingernails, he’ll write anything that’ll get him a click whether he believes it or not

      What’s shameful about that is it shows a man of no principles or moral standard who is prepared to sell anything he’s got for a few controversial and predictable comments from the bewildered rather than take a chance and write the truth

      Newspaper crap used to sell
      Now, not so much
      You’d think they’d wise up, but maybe like the Yoons they work for they’re incapable of individual thought

      But maybe it’ll keep him in a job (For Now)

    148. Croompenstein says:

      England and Wales also have Slovakia in their Euro group. Slovakia a small independent nation. I wonder if there were equivalent zoomers, like those cited above, in Slovakia who hated the thought of their nation being independent and wanting it to be part of ‘something bigger’ to pool and share… Come on Slovakia!!

    149. Wuffing Dug says:

      Hey Ferncake

      I’m a member of the Dumbarton diaspora.
      From ‘the myre’ no less 🙂

      Now resident in sunny Aberdeen.

      Nice to hear the auld toon getting a mention on Wings 🙂

    150. Dave Robb says:

      @skooshkase +

      As I have said before there is no formal view from Freemasonry on the merits or otherwise of any rival systems of government. I am aware of several Past Masters who have privately expressed views in favour of Independence, including a fervent Rangers supporter.

      Don’t get too negative or dismissive – we have friends in unusual places.

      Those who are opposed are opposed regardless of their football team or Masonic connection.

    151. caz-m says:

      The English Language has it’s roots based on the Germanic and Latin languages, with a sprinkling of Scots, Irish and Welsh.

      The English language is bastardised already.

      I am no expert on languages but even I knew that.

      Re: McKenna, MacWhirter and the rest of the fly by nights, the less that is said about that mob the better.

      Please don’t give them a word of publicity, you are only fuelling their negative views.

      Unionist Wankers one and all.

    152. Smithie says:

      Iain says:
      12 December, 2015 at 7:40 pm

      Name one country that would rejoin the British, empire. That’s right …. none
      We will be free
      It’s up to you!
      Vote Snp,Snp
      Ian we could set that to music

    153. Kirsty says:

      Jeez, these comments remind me of an ex who after I told him it was over (very nicely, btw) went on to bombard me with increasingly weird, aggressive and frightening texts until I had to change my number and stop going to certain places. It’s exactly the same desperate and angry tone of you need me, it’s not over until I say, you’re a bitch anyway.

      We all keep asking, why are they so mad when they won? The truth is they didn’t; they know they didn’t and we know they didn’t. I’m not talking about the vote being rigged or anything; I’m talking about the attitudes of Scottish people since the referendum. We just won’t be silent and toe the line anymore. We question everything we’re told, and refuse to be put back in a box and in that way we’re finally free. They know that. They know that things will never be the same again and to all intents and purposes, Scotland is independent now because most of us are now thinking independently. So, really, they lost.

    154. peter says:

      Did the word Scotbut make it into that dictionary?

    155. smithie says:

      Peter or did Butplug?

    156. caz-m says:

      The Australian economy is very dependant on the export of Iron Ore. Anglo American have just announced 85,000 jobs have to go worldwide because of the down turn in Iron Ore sales. Iron Ore prices have plummeted. Sound familiar?

      Do you see Australians pleading with the UK to take them back. Do they need the broad shoulders of England to survive?

      Do they hell and neither do we.

    157. Skooshcase says:

      @Dave Robb at 7.49 pm

      Aye, fair enough. The thing is, round my way being a Rangers supporter and a Mason are synonymous with each other. It’s a right-of-passage for many. Having nothing else in the area to do socially or entertainment-wise doesn’t help either, although it suits the Masonic recruiters.

      By the way, are you a Mason yourself? Or, is that a secret… 😉

    158. Thomas Valentine says:

      This guy Skinner may be worth closer examination.
      I have the feeling that if you scratch beneath the surface you’ll find something juicy, like BNP or EDL.

    159. caz-m says:

      Kirsty 7.58pm

      “Jeez, these comments remind me of an ex who after I told him it was over (very nicely, btw) went on to bombard me with increasingly weird, aggressive and frightening texts until I had to change my number and stop going to certain places.”

      Don’t leave us with an ending like that Kirsty.

      What happened next?

      This is better than Dallas.

    160. Thepnr says:


      Yeah, just about sums it up nicely. Great post.

    161. Croompenstein says:

      A pertinent verse from ‘Scotland Will Flourish’

      Let the Scots be a nation proud of their heritage
      With an eye to the future and a heart to forgive
      And let us be rid of those bigots and fools
      Who will not let Scotland live and let live

    162. Thomas Valentine says:

      So this Skinner guy was with that bunch of “Labour activists” who were wandering around the council schemes of Perth telling people to vote Tory.

      “In Perth, a group of young activists led by Andrew Skinner, a Labour supporter from Glasgow, has been leafleting the Labour stronghold of North Muirton, trying to persuade people to vote Tory.” Telegraph Tuesday 07 April 2015

    163. smithie says:

      Skooshcase you are fucking jokinq , that means fock all to me. Your skin colour or religion
      ? do one mate

    164. jdman says:

      “Scotland is independent now because most of us are now thinking independently. So, really, they lost.”

      You’re absolutely right Kirsty, I no longer consider myself to be part of the UK (although I’ll always be British) if we believe ourselves to be independent who is going to stop us?

    165. Iain says:

      Never forget we will win, the unionists are small negative people, that will sadly be left behind in Scotland’s steps to nationhood.

    166. Bob Mack says:

      The story about Skinner is true.He was not the only Labour activist doing this in Perth,which Labour would never win anyway. He was also involved with the group set up by that woman who said tactical voting would help rob the SNP of seats.

      We saw how that turned out. I was hoping he would return for the Holyrood elections.

    167. Thepnr says:


      I’ve always been Independent. Just waiting for the rest of Scotland to catch up. I’m patient and suspect it won’t be long now.

    168. McBoxHeid says:

      It’s as curious as the rioting and deaths in Cairo and burning of Danish flags after the Prophet’s caricature appeared in some obscure magazine. Can’t you just smell the spontaneity?
      Most of these trolls don’t even know what a dictionary is, let alone spell it.

    169. Walter Scott says:

      The SNP compile the OED?

    170. Macart says:

      @John King 8.30

      Pretty much. 🙂

    171. caz-m says:

      We need to get your average channel 3 watcher onboard.

      They are the most stubborn. They are just not interested in politics. They would happily watch channel 3 from six in the morning until twelve at night. They are the X Factor watchers, Big Brother watchers. They get their Scottish News from watching STV News.

      They look at you as if you are stupid when you tell them not to buy the Daily Record. They are just not interested in politics.

      Crack them and we win our Independence. Easier said than done.

    172. Tam Jardine says:


      When I first became interested in the SNP at uni they were out there- a fair distance from the vast majority of folk. Skip forward 20 years and if anything I think the SNP are starting to lag behind the vast majority of forward thinking Scots. Certainly amongst my friends and at work the view on independence now is light years away from where we were a decade ago.

      Everything has changed. I love hearing the familiar refrain of unionists… its over… you lost… move on. Aye- they can but dream.

    173. Croompenstein says:

      Rev Stu please stop watching films and comment on the football as no one else is interested.. 🙁

    174. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Rev Stu please stop watching films and comment on the football as no one else is interested.. :(“

      What football?

    175. caz-m says:


      Some good boxing on tonight. Chris Eubank’s son is on shortly, then a good UK Heavyweight title fight after that,
      Joshua v Whyte.

    176. Grouse Beater says:

      On the subject of losing friends …

      I ‘lost’ one friend who had been very kind to me in times past. We were friends despite holding opposing political views – he a hard right-winger, staunchly anti-SNP and any sort of autonomy for Scotland. Murdoch is a hero to him.

      There were times I was uncomfortable in his company but he had a good heart and that seemed enough for me.

      One day I thought I recognised comments on a political website he had often said to me. Later he let slip that he enjoyed harassing SNP and indie supporters. I warned him there and then that as a top ‘executive’ he should steer clear of websites even if using a phony name. But he didn’t.

      This year I began to get attacked by a troll on my own website, not normal disagreement or even dismissal of ideas, but personal remarks and defamation. One day I realised the site allows me to check the source, and there he was… my wife was shocked.

      Previously we had exchanged political ideals by e-mail, firm but always respectful opinions. It never troubled me that he was so vehement in his degradation of Scotland’s hopes, because I regarded him as a friend, open and honest, yet here he was twice as vicious cloak and dagger.

      The friendship ended in one swift reply. I cut him adrift. The future of an entire nation is at stake and this guy used the tactics of a low troll to demean and defame. What was wrong with the old days, the mature way, a drink and a chat? I can take passion when it’s not my own.

      For me personally this has been a hard year, pretty shit to be candid, but I hide it from family, I show resolve. Only the surprise of the 56 to Westminster raised my spirits. Composing a weekly essay makes me feel I’m doing something, even if modest, but in the end it’s all sadness to various degrees.

    177. Dervheid says:

      Didn’t know that “Pouters” are actually a pigeon. There’s a wee Wikipedia article
      If you read it you’ll realise it’s utterly ripe for editing…

    178. Kevin Lynch says:

      So they were aiming high. A whopping 500 signatures. Which isn’t even a statistically significant sample of the population. Most small villages have more than 500 people living in them.

    179. Croompenstein says:

      Rev – What football?

      Sorry Stu, the Euro 2016 finals draw..

    180. CameronB Brodie says:

      Child – “How do you know it’s beautiful?”
      Father- “Because that is what I chose to believe.”
      (Ridley Scott’s Prometheus,)

      Which got me thinking about British imperialism, in general, leading me to…

      The trick, William Potter, is not minding that it hurts.

      (Peter O’Toole as “Lawrence of Arabia”.)

      Which leads me to reflect on Britain’s instrumental roll in turning the middle-east into the mess it is.

      The revolt, one of the most dramatic episodes of the 20th century, was a seminal moment in the history of the modern Middle East, the touchstone of all future regional conflicts.

      Perhaps a strange way of thinking but I did do all my own re-wiring. 😉

      @ All Unionist (as apposed to No voters in general)
      Does the state of Israel have a right to exist? If yes, why not a Scottish state?

    181. Grouse Beater says:

      “Sorry Stu, the Euro 2016 finals draw…”

      Check Wings twitter, Croompenstein.

    182. Bob Mack says:

      @Grouse Beater,

      “It’s all sadness to various degrees”

      I kind of know what you mean, but then again you cannot walk in anothers shoes.
      The funny thing is that you are one of the people whose contribution I look for when I visit the site. Though perhaps not feeling that great,you yourself transmit a passion in your writing that is hard to dismiss.

      This is indeed a tough battle, but it is one where no prisoners are taken.We stand or fall together.
      You are very much appreciated,probably more than you know.

    183. ArtyHetty says:


      Yes it is sad, I too have found this year very difficult, and lost people who seemed like friends, similar, tory voting but seemed good hearted. Some honest truths emerged, friends’ prejudices, horrible and unexpected.

      I think the unionists feel left out, so they go on the defensive, their loss. One ex friend in particular said she did not ‘let politics affect friendships’. Funnily enough, it was her who cut me off for challenging her right verging on far right politics post referendum.

      We will get there, love reading your pieces of writing, stay strong.

    184. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      There are several changes that put us in a very different place now.
      1. Most Scots believe we will become independent. The opposite was the case until fairly recently.

      2. Most Scots used to believe “England won’t give us independence”
      Most now know if we vote for it we get it, whether England likes it or not.

      3. Our organised political opponents – Labour,the Tories,the LibDems are actually completely defeated except in the media.

      When we started the Referendum Campaign the polling was 50% against independence, 32% for independence, and 18% undecided.

      Now it is 50% for independence, 32% against independence and 18% undecided.

      That 18% holds the key – as it did during the referendum campaign though it represents a movement now from No to Don’t Know and Don’t Know to Yes as all the movement is in the one direction. Better Together did not seek converts to the cause of the union. It sought only to reinforce the fears of the nervous.

      The difference is that that won’t do for them next time. Any further movement will be to us

    185. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Grouse Beater –

      Sorry to hear about that. From your brief description of the guy’s behaviour I’d surmise there’s something wrong with him – touch of the green-eyed monster perhaps?

      Long time ago, an unpopular relative passed. More than one family member (and this was at the supper after the funeral) whispered ‘no big loss’ when the platitudes had run their course. Sounded harsh at the time, but as you find out or realise certain details about people these things come to make sense.

      We’re on the verge of a fresh year, and a lot to look forward to – I hope your blog goes from strength to strength. 😉

    186. gordoz says:

      Ahhh ; these zoomer / commenters must be part of Broonies ‘Silent Majority’ no doubt

      McConnachie is the give away; whatever happened to that 5th column element ‘New Dawn’ alternative to the SNP he started u? (ahem?)

    187. Grouse Beater says:

      Dr Jim: “Quick word about Kevin McKenna. Like an awful lot of “Journalists” these days who are hanging on to their jobs by their fingernails, he’ll write anything that’ll get him a click whether he believes it or not”

      Just read his piece in the Guardian and I’m not sure how to react because the piece is quite weird.

      Two recent occasions when SNP politicians make plain their revulsion at bigotry do not add up to ‘how the SNP love to ban people.” Are we banning Syrian refugees, Kevin?

      Suddenly McKenna thinks Scotland should remain a local parish and confine itself to local issues and community matters? Maybe he feels the Unionists are gaining the upper hand and its time to shuffle to the right again.

      Who knows? It’s a really extraordinary, and badly argued piece best forgotten by him as well as us.

    188. sinky says:

      Bbc 24 hour news repeating old old news over FRB poblems with no mention of Feta or Westminster’s historic neglect

    189. Grouse Beater says:

      That’s true, Bob Mack

      Much obliged Ian and Arty Hetty – some winter Scots days are bleak, clouds hang over you glutinous as frog spawn, some days soak into your bones and chill.

      I marvel at Stuart’s ability to keep his anger positive and not corrosive. Admirable.

      I’ve taken to a couple of hard working hustlers on DAVE who go by the trade name, ‘American Pickers’ – I love the people they meet and places they go, great characters and eccentrics who have the collecting mania.

      I think I should pour a wee dram…

    190. Grouse Beater says:

      Cameron: The trick, William Potter, is not minding that it hurts.

      Lawrence, just before he extinguishes the lit match with his thumb and index finger, and the sudden black darkness is illuminated again, but slowly, this time by the dawn sun arising over the Negev Desert … and we hear Maurice Jarre’s famous theme begin.

      A wonderful transformational moment in cinema.

      Israel has tested dirty bombs in the Negev. Amen.

      (Sorry for the off-topic moment

    191. Clootie says:

      …all these “Scots” just happened on this petition around the same time!!!!
      Who are they kidding 😀

    192. r esquierdo says:

      Slowly but surely the difficult of learning are taking on board aspects that give a glimmer of hope. The 8000,000 Scots with very low numerical and literacy skills are taking in the true facts.

    193. Tackety Beets says:

      Grousebeater ,
      I’ll admit I do not read ALL your essays , mainly as I do not have enough free time.
      Those I read are enjoyable . I too share your mixed year feelings. To quote a former work colleague “keep a cool tool” and keep your posts here too.

      My poor brother has to work with Onionists and it’s been getting him down quite a lot lately.
      Recently after he corrected some of their ” factual inexactitudes” one lady said “If you do that again you can get out of this office….” Another “we can’t understand how anyone can even think of voting YES”. Equally unpleasant , another has been physically invading his personal space etc

      On the +ve side tho’ one colleague has admitted he did not know certain things and now talks as if he has been checking some of the facts my brother has been talking about.

      Maybe all this bile from Onionists is the result of Project Fear having been soaked up by them to the extent that they are crapping it as they are seeing the promises from the Union disintegrating before their eyes as another Ref 2 looms overhead , threatening to pounce on them.

      I would vote YES even if my income was to be halved, maybe others need belief & courage.

      I on the other hand are surrounded family & work with 95% Yessers and I find the kinda stuff above and certain sites totally disgusting that folk feel so SNP bad ….. What do they want to change FFS?

      I personally have wanted iScotland since the 60’s in Sec School , growing up in NE was unaware of the “religious” factions of football. A friend I have known since the 70’s was a YESSER in 2014. Recently I popped a question about his view , he pulled out his wallet took out his SNP card and said “I’ve been a member all my adult life” this same friend is high up and very active @ the Masonic Lodge.

    194. crisiscult says:

      on the theme of falling out with people: I do laugh at the hardcore unionists who seem to genuinely believe there was no division in Scotland till the SNP came along and created it. What I think has happened over the last couple of years is that people were just overlooking political and ideological differences, or avoiding those types of conversations. Once those conversations took place, you realised people you knew held views you didn’t like.

      northern irish guy living in Scotland pretends to be undecided. Asks lots of questions. Discussions develop. Turns out he’s ‘religious’ anti abortion and anti-homosexuality, but quite happy with money lending, greed, tax avoidance, profiteering, and other activities right wingers seem to think are A-OK. So the question is, do you say to yourself. ‘Well, let’s just agree to disagree and be friends’ or do you say ‘I think I’ll be avoiding this guy in future’?

      I’ve been a bit tetchy since September 2014 but I’m also invigorated, and I also appreciate more the people I’m friendly with who I know have views I respect. A lot of distance has grown between some of my friends (ex friends) and me, but distance has narrowed between some others and me.

    195. Grouse Beater says:

      Tackety Beets: “My brother has to work with Onionists; it’s been getting him down quite a lot lately.”.

      That must make office hours fraught. As a freelance I shed colleagues as I move to the next project, big or small, so am rarely burdened by the righteousness of absolutists. But caught in an office of loyal Royalists must be a kind of hell.

      The pity is, they have no conception of liberties denied them, or the status Scotland could have if released from its subservient situation.

    196. Big Jock says:

      Grouse during the referendum I was a lonely voice, an island in my office. Surrounded by onionists. The worst thing I found was how much they hated their own government. They sided with Westminster on everything.

      Do these people even deserve a Scottish government? The noisy ones are always ill informed.

      I exploded one day when I heard Nicola constantly being referred to as Bride Of Chuckie. They didn’t mess with me after that. Absolute morons. Made up their mind on the basis of Cameron,Daily Mail and the BBC.

      The day after the vote was hell for me in there.

    197. Free Scotland says:

      Confusing “rite” with “right,” and not having a clue about the correct use of the apostrophe, many of these respondents would be out of their depth with 1% of the content of the Oxford English Dictionary. They would perhaps even struggle to cope with the complexities presented by a book of nursery rhymes. They seem more like the type of people who would spend hours watching mind-numbing games shows or cheer-me-up soaps like Eastenders.

    198. Gary45% says:

      You can hear the flutes and drums mind numbingly banging away in the background as they write their bigoted diatribe.
      As its the time of festive cheer, have a wee game of spot the nawbag.
      The wife and I are pretty positive jolly souls, (despite last years result), when your walking in any city or town, you can tell the naysayers a mile away.
      Just give them a big smile as you pass, it does work better if you are wearing a Yes badge.

    199. Wull says:

      Joemcg says:

      12 December, 2015 at 2:17 pm

      I’m naturally suspicious and still cannot believe we lost the vote. How can the SNP sweep the board at the GE shortly after yes was defeated? … Still think it stinks and don’t get me started on the fantasy figure of 800,000 postal votes out of our tiny population.

      If, as I presume, 800,000 postal votes is the right number, you are right Joe Mcg: this is an astonishing figure. I wonder how many of the 800,000 were people who own ‘holiday homes’ in Scotland.

      Very strangely, holiday home owners could vote in the 2014 indyref.

      In principle, the right to vote was supposed to be based on residence in Scotland. Residence was deemed the jey criterion for demonstrating commitment to the country. It was also the only practical way to organise the vote.

      Although Scots-born people living furth of Scotland were aggrieved at having no say, it would have been impossible to establish a register of them in time for the referendum. Any attempt to do so would have been open to all kinds of fraud. With however much regret, the SNP made the right call on that issue.

      However, the SNP should also have insisted that owning a ‘holiday home in Scotland’ does not amount to ‘residence in Scotland’. The point is obvious, but it did not appear in the Edinburgh Agreement, and a loop-hole undermining the residence principle opened up.

      Holiday homes are not difficult to trace. Every local authority has a register of them for the area it covers, for Council Tax purposes. It would have been a simple matter to compare the holiday home registers with the electoral roll. Anyone who appeared on that roll in connection with a holiday home address could easily have been removed from it, for the referendum.

      This was not done, however. Contrary to the ‘residence principle’, holiday home owners who were not resident in Scotland could get their names on the roll, and vote in the referendum.

      That was certainly possible for those resident outside the UK. A (Yes-voting) friend of mine who works abroad did it. If some Yes-voters did this, isn’t it likely that some No-voters in the same situation did the same thing? And indeed – maybe – can we not imagine that more No-voting than Yes-voting holiday home owners would have done so?

      I suspect it was also possible for people resident in other parts of the UK – England, Wales or Northern Ireland – to do the same thing, if they had a ‘holiday home’ in Scotland.

      And I further suspect that not only the ‘owners’ could do this, but that they could also include – even on the electoral roll – others whom they registered as ‘living’ with them in their ‘holiday home’. For instance, spouse, grown-up son or daughter, or even just a ‘friend’ or two.

      Did well-organised and far-seeing No-voters, residing outside Scotland but owning a holiday home there, contrive to swell the No votes with such a ploy? Maybe … Who knows?

      And what about people with both their main residence and a holiday home in Scotland? I may be mistaken, but I think they could have registered on the electoral roll in both locations, with minimal organisation, and voted twice. They could even do it physically if both houses were within reasonable reach of each other. After voting from the main residence, a quick drive through to the ‘holiday home’ would do the trick nicely – but postal voting would have facilitated the matter even more effectively, and with less hassle.

      While I suppose it is technically illegal to vote twice in a referendum, or indeed an election, am I right in thinking that such loop-holes do exist? And even if someone using them is acting illegally, does anyone ever check any of these things out? I doubt it.

      If we enquired further, and turned up some serious and demonstrably illegal cheating, would it be enough to cast serious doubt on the 2014 result? Probably not. But it would be interesting to know, all the same.

      Even with regard to a matter that was in no way illegal, I would like to know how many people actually voted from registered ‘holiday home’ addresses. Could a ‘freedom of information’ request provide an answer to that question? If so, it wouldn’t tell us how any such voters voted – whether ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ – but it might raise awareness of a serious flaw in the system.

      The kind of flaw, moreover, which should definitely be ironed out before the next indyref takes place, hopefully soon. If the residence principle is to be upheld, no one should be able to register to vote in that forthcoming referendum from a holiday home.

      If it is genuinely a ‘holiday home’, neither the owner nor anyone associated with him can be considered to ‘reside’ there. Their (main) residence (from which they would normally vote) must be elsewhere, because they only come there ‘on holiday’.

      It is precisely because they do not reside there, but are most of the time absent, that they pay less Council Tax on their second house than their neighbours. Their neighbours, that is, who live there permanently.

      Holiday home owners can’t have their cake and eat it. That is, they can’t have their Council Tax Rebate for being absent most of the year, and – at the same time – be considered present most of the year whenever a referendum is held to determine whether Scotland should become an independent country. If their house is a holiday home they are mostly absent, not resident, and should have no vote in a referendum in which only resients have that right.

      No one resides permanently in a ‘holiday home’; if they do, it ceases to be a holiday home. So no one should be able to vote on Scotland’s independence on account of having a holiday home there. Why such people were ever allowed to do so in 2014 is bewildering, and makes no sense. That they should not be allowed to do so next time round is simply a matter of logic. SNP please take note.

      This is only one small way in which the voting system for indyrefs needs to be tightened up. There are surely many others.

    200. Tam Jardine says:

      Grouse Beater

      I hear you. These fundamental differences have been simmering away quietly for hundreds of years. The unionists depict Scotland now as being a divided country and that is certainly true.

      Pretending division does not exist, papering over the cracks and keeping on buggering on is not very grown up. So the referendum brought the struggle to a head? So the country is still divided? So we just can’t accept defeat and move on? Great- this is not an arguement- it is a fight to the death between the very existence of Scotland and our enemies who would extinguish the flame.

      Sorry you are sounding so low the night- I’ve never met you but you strike me as a total champion. Be strong and keep your sense of humour. Some tough times ahead- but for the Britnats the future is like something written by Kafka so take heart in that.

    201. Grouse Beater says:

      Big Jock:The worst thing I found was how much they hated their own government.

      It’s inconceivable to me anybody would think Westminster rule superior to Scotland’s own, unless they suffered from an inferiority complex about things Scottish.

      That recoil is often dismissed as ‘the cringe’ but I wonder if there’s an element of insecurity involved, anxiety triggered by radical change – which was why Salmond promoted independence as a one step at a time policy.

      Life, even at the hard end dished out by London, is better when told what to do and think by those chaps who can pronounce the Queen’s English ‘properly’ and not by those who say ‘wurrald’ instead of ‘world.’

      Am working with two joiners at the moment, one a determined Yes voter, the other an anxiety prone No voter. Interesting to compare their reasons and attitude for voting the way they did.

      The No said, “See the day after, when Cameron strode out to yon microphone and said it was all about English laws – Ah felt real anger, and then terrible Ah had voted No.”

    202. Graham MacLure says:

      Big Jock, take council from an old veteran. When they watches ye naught put senapods in their kettle such as they may work and forwhomsoever dost not use a kettle thrust divers amounts of viagra, such as they may go forth and multiply into their rice crispies as verily do all nawbags consume their cereals and on the hour of morning break capture the whole assembly on the great god Kodak for all posterity such we all laugh into the next millenium and for generations yet unborn.
      Pissed again.

    203. Iain says:

      I can sympathise with you Grouse beater, I have couple of friends who are die hard unionists. Things have not been the same the referendum, but I would not go back to before my eyes were opened to the bum lies. My life has changed radically in the past five years and obviously I have no idea how it will go. I think we owe it to our kids and young people of Scotland to get out of this terrible union. I wish you well.

    204. Big Jock says:

      Grouse the same no voters are now very quiet in my office. Not so proud of their work!

      I told them that if they voted no Cameron would take us to war in Syria and out of Europe. The first bit has happened and the next bit may happen against Scotland’s wishes, like the war vote!

      The reason the Tories are running Scotland is because these people gave him the right to run Scotland. It’s not because Labour were innefective or the SNP took Labour seats. While we remain part of the UK we get England’s government not Scotland’s.

    205. Grouse Beater says:

      Ian and Big Jock

      Tory policies are the most callous I can recall for a long time, to the point they use food banks as punishment for people who don’t satisfy their horrendous criteria for welfare.

    206. Katie says:

      Hahahahaha! Oh my god! Some people have far too much time on their hands. As far as I was aware, I thought the dictionary example just had to be grammatically correct whether true or not. For example : “Jane discovered that John voted NO in the referendum and subsequently slapped him accross the face.”

    207. Grouse Beater says:

      To Tim and other friends here chivvying me to stand tall – grateful thanks. Some days are bleaker than others; this is one. Scottish winters can fair seep into yer bones …

    208. Croompenstein says:

      Never a bad time to drop this in, wise words from Don Roberto..

      The enemies of Scottish Nationalism are not the English, for they were ever a great and generous folk, quick to respond when justice calls. Our real enemies are among us, born without imagination

    209. TYRAN says:

      David Hepburn OBE complaining about the bastardisation of pure English by Scots tongue – yet states he is a “Scotsman”. The pure English is Scotchman. The Scots is Scotsman. (Detailed in any Scotticism book from the early 18th C. for those in Scotland who wished to learn English.) Hepburn OBE should refer to himself as a Scotchman to converse in a pure English. I am Scots. He is Scotch.

    210. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Grouse Beater –

      Rev asked, via Twitter, a few days ago, what policies have been decided after the RISE conference last week.

      ‘No answer’ came the reply…

      We should know, before the end of this week, the names of the candidates standing for SSP/RISE.

      Then we’ll know whether the SSP still exists in any meaningful form.

      Only then will we know if a genuine ‘socialist’ party is available for Scottish citizens to vote for next summer.

      Sheridan must be biting his nails to the quick, as are many of us – the party I

    211. ArtyHetty says:


      Scotland is the only country I know where people ridicule and do themselves down in a serious way. The no voters especially. I have heard them basically say we are useless. It seems some are more open to this negativity than others. As I have said before here, you never hear anyone in Newcastle tell themselves or others, how crap the place is, ( and it is no where near as fab as Scotland, sorry to say).

      So why do too many people in Scotland do their country down? My no voting friends tried it last time I did see them, I was having non of it and told them so.

      A while back, I picked up a (nasty) book called ‘The Scots’ crisis of confidence’ in a charity shop. It’s by Scottish writer Carol Craig, a unionist. When you read any passage in the book, the over riding message is that Scottish people are far too narrow minded and obsessed with Scottish identity, I could go on about what else she says, but it’s a waste of time.

      You know I think this so called ‘crisis’, has been a big fat lie of a projection from South of the border, but Scotland has now got hold of a forcefield against that negative projection. It ain’t pleasing the unionists at all. (yes I know been watching too many episodes of ‘Eureka’ and ‘Stargate’ lately).

    212. heedtracker says:

      The enemies of Scottish Nationalism are not the English, for they were ever a great and generous folk, quick to respond when justice calls. Our real enemies are among us, born without imagination

      My Slovenian girlfriend will take great offence at that for starters.

      Adam Tomkins ?@ProfTomkins 8h8 hours ago
      Huge thanks to everyone who voted me to the top of the Glasgow region list for May’s Scottish Parliament election #VoteToryGetTomkins
      16 retweets 68 likes
      Reply Retweet 16
      Like 68


      Kevin Hague
      @ProfTomkins congrats – whatever political differences we may find, I’m delighted with the prospect of you being active in Holyrood

      Blue tory Bettertogether to reign over us forever.

    213. Grouse Beater says:

      Ian: “Sheridan must be biting his nails to the quick” 🙂

    214. Wull says:

      Big Jock,

      You are dead right about Syria. If Scotland had voted Yes in 2014, neither the about-to-end old UK (it would have been due to wind up in March 2016) nor the about-to-appear rUK (if they were still allowed to use ‘UK’ in the name of their country) would have been able to intervene there.

      For one thing, Cameron would no longer have been PM or indeed the leader of the Tory Party. He would have been gone by now, and it is very much ‘his’ war, his fantasy. He always wanted to bomb someone in Syria – the only thing that has changed is the target.

      For another thing, the about-to-be-born rUK, or whatever they would have called it, just would not have had the nerve to do it. They would have been too deflated by having been defeated by the Scots in the referendum.

      This was a major ‘spin-off’ reason for voting Yes: although it would have hurt our southern neighbours badly in the short-term, it would have saved them – from themselves – in the long-term.

      A Scottish ‘Yes’ would have deflated them in the real sense – taking the wind out of the totally unrealistic puffed-up nonsense with which this UK-thing still sails the seas, under the deadly illusion that it is still some kind of world power. On the coat-tails of America, of course. Scottish independence is necessary to put a final end to the Great British imperial illusion. Nothing else, it seems, will kill it off. There is no other way to do it.

      A lot of us knew that before the referendum vote. The way the British government has acted since then, both with regard to Scotland itself and abroad, right now in Syria, has confirmed it a thousand times over.

      In one way I hate to say this, but it is a fact: we Scots could have stopped the UK in its tracks, and stopped what is now happening in Syria, if only more of us had voted Yes. Agreed IS has to be defeated, but not like this. Because this won’t stop IS – it will only give it, or whatever succeeds it, greater strength.

      Scottish independence is a foreign policy issue. It has ramifications far beyond our own shores. And it is more urgent than ever. The Syrian air strikes – and the way the decision was taken to launch them – prove this beyond any shadow of doubt …

    215. Thepnr says:


      I hear you and agree. Don’t be fooled.

    216. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Grouse Beater –

      Thanks for plucking a positive from my truncated comment!

      Interesting few days ahead for anyone who is Scottish, socialist, and keen to know whether or not early May could be the time to take a holiday.

    217. heedtracker says:

      How it works, UKOK

      From what ever these creeps think they’re doing with today’s Scottish report

      Trump and Fury… How the SNP loves to ban people
      Kevin McKenna


      “Ask the question of the week – what does it mean to be British?

      After a slow start, they became global adventurers, half-pirate, half-pastor, planting English and Englishness across the known world from Boston to Botany Bay.”

      And so on.

      Farted out by Robert McCrum
      Robert McCrum is an associate editor of the Observer. He was born and educated in Cambridge.

      We’re just the Scots, and near half of the UK is Scotland but dont forget adblock folks:D

    218. Thepnr says:

      It’s late I know, I posted this song on Off Topic but believe it deserves a wider audience. So here you go. You’ll like it I think.

    219. robertknight says:

      Brit-zoomer alert!

    220. Vambomarbeleye says:

      Visited a old friend tonight. Daily record on the table. Tradition of OO in the family. Was banging on about money that Nichola had taken from the health service or the education budget. Really couldn’t make head nor tail of it. Thirty million by his account. Mentioned the money labour sent back to Westminster. Wouldn’t believe that. Kesia waved a piece of paper so that made every thing the first Minster said about the bridge lies. He is in employment at the moment becaus of the SNP road building projects. No he can’t see that one. Both he and his wife have had heart attacks. Both still smoking. As I left they were tucking into jock pie and chips. Says it all.

    221. Grouse Beater says:

      My Sunday front page:

    222. Ghillie says:

      Thank you for the song Thepnr @ 1.39am. Really worth a listen folks! Brought tears to my eyes.

      And thank you Grouse Beater @2.35am for another great piece of writing. Well worth a read folks! Even though it really did make me cry. I think I needed cathartic tears…next week WILL be better.

      I am now loving using the word ‘subsequently’…for me, a new word for ‘HOPE’ = )
      For unionists… another new word for ‘FEAR’!

    223. liz g says:

      On my.. you lot just stop it.
      We are getting out of this union ..and soon….
      Don’t ….whatever it is you are !!!feeling…
      Give up or give in,we are too close.

    224. jdman says:

      Seems like some people are already describing the UK as England

    225. Another Union Dividend says:

      O/T Sunday Post getting into a lather over Forth Road Bridge.

      However Sunday Herald reports that to carry out the postponed works would have meant closing the road bridge for at least eight weeks. Also that FETA, which had £ millions in reserve altered the scope of the works to deliver a more proportionate solution with less disruption and a lower cost. “The Scottish Government was not alerted to any critical consequences arising from this change of scope.”

      The dependency brigade wilfully fail to acknowledge that FETA , not Transport Scotland or the Scottish government, was responsible for bridge repairs until June this year.

    226. JLT says:

      Maybe our Unionist friends can stop ‘rewarding’ failure …or call it for what it is – a blatant lie.

      Seeing Danny Alexander being knighted this week only reinforced the views of a good couple of million people in Scotland that something is wrong with the current political setup.

      Danny Alexander …a man who saved the economy along with Alistair Darling. Seriously …Danny!?!? An economic genius! Pleeease!!

      Danny along with Alistair, were rewarded just like Michelle Mone, for helping to keep Scotland attached to England. It was political; not economical, that Danny was rewarded for.

      Anyway, while Andrew Skinner might toast Danny’s achievements, 50% of Scotland most certainly won’t. And it is these public acts, continued on a regular basis, by the UK’s establishment in rewarding people just because (1) they are big fans of the royals (2) they backed the ‘No’ campaign (3) they helped UK businesses in dodgy or controversial parts of the world (4) they are a ‘celebrity’ …that hack off a lot of Scots who perceive injustice all around them on a regular basis and thus look for alternatives to the wonderful ‘Union’.

      Andrew whines about a dictionary (seriously …who gives a toss!) then that is his prerogative (you have to ask though …what does Andrew do in his spare time? How the hell did he find this ‘contentious’ word in a book containing …what? A quarter of a million words! His commitment level in opposing the ‘Nats’ is beyond OCD). But if Andrew really wants to stop the rise in nationalism, then maybe he should pen a wee letter to our Queen, and ask her to stop rewarding failure …or better still …rewarding those who seem to quite easily, anger half of the Scottish nation.

      Seeing Danny being knighted for helping to keep Scotland in the Union while wearing Scottish evening dress, after a ‘failed’ campaign based on lies, fears and threats, and to which, he helped rip away a dream from 50% of his fellow countrymen…might help keep Scotland just that wee bit longer in the Union. It also shows just how out of touch our Queen is when she sits there perplexed in wondering why ‘her northern subjects want to leave the Union’.

      While the Unionist Establishment may be toasting Danny and Alistair …a part of the great ‘United Kingdom’ growled in disgust. Maybe Andrew needs to start mumping at his Unionist pals, for surely they are helping to cause the breakup of his beloved Union …not a daft wee entry that no one looks at in the OED.

    227. Robert Kerr says:

      @Another Union Dividend

      Yes, and the Sunday Herald does read WoS.

      I earlier posted the report from Atkins, Consulting Engineers.

      FETA made the decision. FETA dominated by Edinburgh Labour, including being chaired by councillor Hinds.

      Please, please let’s have a full enquiry.

    228. Big Jock says:

      Another small slight ,but this says it all to me.

      I recently went into Evans cycle shop in Glasgow. It’s a well known British cycle chain. Pardon the pun!

      It was to buy a light for my road bike. On getting home and reading the instructions. It said:” This light can cope with the worst of the English weather.” The light was made in China.That’s who we are to the world people invisible.

      Not as bad as buying shoes in a German shoe shop in Glasgow. The delivery crate said: ” Glasgow,England”. Don’t fool yourselves some of the Europeans are as ignorant about the difference as anyone.

      The fact that the store manager was not up in arms about this baffled me. I told him to complain and he just laughed. It’s not petty its just plain wrong geographically.

      I bet when we write postcards on Spanish holidays. They go through the post office and the Spanish say to trainees. Yes Scotland is in England put that one in the English box.

    229. Ken500 says:

      They can lie and cheat all they want but for the majority of the people/electorate there is not going back only forwards. The truth will prevail. The way Westminster criminals have behaved is appalling. No honour among thieves. Everyone knows who’s to blame for the appalling state of Scotland’s infrastructure and who is sorting it out. Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence.

      That is the only way to ensure Scotland’s future. Away for the crooks and criminals at Westminster who fight never ending illegal wars, kill and main millions and who deny food for the vulnerable. They are a disgace. So are the MSM colluding in the illegal behaviour. They are a disgrace.

      Using the Official Secrets Act to cover their crime. Murderers, child abusers, fraudsters and defrauders. Most of them should be in prison, but are swanning around the world tax evading and living £millionaire lifestyles. Illegally wasting £Billions of public money and defrauding the Public purse. .

      Vore SNP/SNP Vote for Independence. .

    230. Chic McGregor says:

      An explanation might be that James Murray, a Scottish lexicographer was editor of the OED for nearly 40 years. He died a few years before the first edition was published but oversaw the vast bulk of its compilation.

    231. Capella says:

      A link to a Guardian piece by Seamus Milne, son of ex BBC DG Alidair Milne, on why and how the Thatcher government had him sacked

      Taken from a good summary of 10 events leading to the neo-con and fake left takeover of UK by Neil Clark

    232. Joemcg says:

      Big jock, a few years ago I was actually advised by a few Spanish residents to write England on my postcards to make sure they would reach their destination Scotland! It’s true. That was a favourite denial on the zoomer columns that we were recognised on the world stage! Liars. Another popular one was denying Scottish currency was ever refused down south! That’s why I stopped arguing with those morons.

    233. Dr Jim says:

      Radio Scotland right now with Kevin McKenna and Anna Burnside reviewing the papers

      Even if you were to say they just don’t keep up with the actual news while they’re talking pish about it, the very least that would amount to would be incompetence

      But it’s not, it’s not even a reasonable interpretation of what’s in the stupid rags in the first place

      So what’s an informed listener to think, well, they’re both downright liars is what I think

      The uninformed listener won’t know exactly what’s going on and if they are still the types of people who believe what they are told by “JOURNALISTS” they really could be forgiven for thinking the Scottish Government in the form of the SNP is actually out to shaft the Nation

      Even McKenna admitted, probably by a slip of his lying brain, that “JOURNALISTS” do write click bait pieces to test the mood for future policy of their rags

      I find that insulting and offensive and I’m not the only one
      Thing is about that behaviour, lie to my face and I, like others might deck you, lie about my choice of Government on the Radio, TV or Newsrags is lying to an entire country and eventually somebody will have to answer for that and I’m just an ordinary nice old pensioner who doesn’t buy the shit but the more these people do this the more folk will Suss and NO MORE PAPERS SOLD

      One more observation, every time they mention the National Newspaper,or the Sunday, laughter always bursts forth before they “Review” it (Funny?)or Funny!

    234. David Agnew says:

      I think it more likely that their anger stems from the pleasant fiction that everyone is happy being British, being starkly challenged by the indyref result & the GE result last may.
      These are the people who identify themselves most strongly as British. Imagine their surprise when they realise that for the majority of Scots, regard it as a collective pro-noun. Then see their angst when they see that almost half, not only consider themselves to “Scottish and Scottish only”, also feel no great love for the union and want it ended.

      Its then you see that the “bitter victors” have no way forward. You can’t move as one Scotland in the Union, when half vehemently disagree with you. Then imagine the rage of these proud British folk when half of Scotland’s electorate vote for a party that does not answer to a London party HQ.

      There is no way forward for them. And their campaign was so nasty and spiteful, that they cannot bridge the gap between themselves and the rest of us. And they need the rest of us to let them wind the clock back, and pretend the indyref never happened.

    235. scottieDog says:

      Interesting article about Netherlands and how it’s need to defend itself from the sea is a big contributor to its GDP…

    236. John J. says:

      It was clear from the entry that the OED was referring to 1707 not 2014.

      Stu, Could you run a pole with a simple IQ test carrying an embedded question on how the responder voted in the referendum?

      I believe you could demonstrate that the average NO voter is relatively quite dim.

    237. Capella says:

      @ Dr Jim


      NORTH AMERICAN informal
      an accomplice of a hawker, gambler, or swindler who acts as an enthusiastic customer to entice or encourage others.
      act or work as a shill.

    238. On YouTube they have a short film of the `10 most evil empires`

      Guess what is number 1,

      not The Mongol empire,

      not the Spanish empire,

      not the Nazi or Japanese or Roman,

      The number 1 most evil empire ever in the history of this planet is,

      The British Empire, murdered over 150 million men, women and children throughout the whole planet,

    239. Brian Powell says:

      If the info for the real responsibility over decisions about the bridge filters out there will be a shift, from the usual suspects, from it was the SNPs fault to it was everybody’s fault, equally.

    240. heedtracker says:

      Brian Powell says:
      13 December, 2015 at 10:22 am
      If the info for the real responsibility over decisions about the bridge filters out there will be a shift, from the usual suspects, from it was the SNPs fault to it was everybody’s fault, equally.

      And then the decision makers that solved the Forth road brdge problems permanently, will then be lauded by our assorted freak show Brit media, future Sir Gordon Brewer and co kissing the Salmond ring etc

    241. heedtracker says:

      David Cameron also welcomed the deal, praising those involved for showing what ambition and perseverance can do: “We’ve secured our planet for many, many generations to come – and there is nothing more important than that.”

      Does it get any UKOK worse than this?

      Toryboy in chief, says “we’ve secured our planet” The fraudsters don’t get any bigger than this. Well they have Trident dumped in their Scotland region, so they can destroy the planet quite quickly too, not just the hot places, far enough away they cant strike back much.

    242. Bob Mack says:

      Extremely frank admission by Paddy Ashdown this morning that if he had been born and brought up in the Catholic areas of N Ireland he would probably have joined the IRA.

      He could understand the need for a people to have a say in their future and daily life.

      Is it not therefore extraordinary that he is so rigid in his support for the Union.

      The only rationale I can apply is that he believes the Scottish people have had nothing in fact to complain about, and that he views Scotland as a settled happy partner with no reason to be unhappy.

      In my view I see a great polarisation taking place in our land.
      We have the SNP and their supporters struggling for freedom from Westminster rule,and increasingly as Labour become irrelevant then the Tories will take up the mantle of the Unionists here in Scotland. It will be a two way fight to the end, and one we shall win eventually.

    243. Glamaig says:

      Ive seen people posting here saying they are getting discouraged engaging with the Unionists in the Herald etc. DONT STOP.

      I was talking to a friend last night who was a firm NO in the referendum and for the first time I see chinks of light appearing.

      He is an avid Herald reader and said that the pro-indy letters in the Herald were very good and were never successfully answered by the pro-Union writers.

      So, whoever you are, keep it up, there are thoughtful No voters out there who do notice.

    244. Grouse Beater says:

      I miss our weekend cartoon to cheer me up. 🙂

      I’m afraid this essay will only dep

    245. Robert Peffers says:

      @Grouse Beater says: 13 December, 2015 at 12:05 am:

      “Tory policies are the most callous I can recall for a long time, to the point they use food banks as punishment for people who don’t satisfy their horrendous criteria for welfare.”

      I agree with that, Grouse Beater. While Tory policy has always gone out of its way to punish people for being sick, disabled, old or just poor, this present lot of Tories have achieved what Thatcher narrowly failed to do. To return the, (Dis)United Kingdom back to pre-Dickensian times.

      Here is a poem I wrote way back in Thatcher’s first term in office. it could have been written today.

      I believe that the Blairite movement of Labour to the right to occupy what was once Tory ground has forced the Tories to move further right dragging the LibDems along with them.

      There’s Something Wrong With The System.

      There’s something so wrong with a system,
      When children can die without care.
      When people, who haven’t got homes of their own,
      Live and die in the cold streets out there.

      There’s something so wrong with a system
      That does not take care of it’s old.
      Which leaves then to die, in a cold draughty flat,
      All alone in the dark and the cold.

      There’s something so wrong with this system.
      I really don’t think that it’s funny.
      That gives most to the arts and the rest to crafts
      When spending our lottery money.

      The system then taxes the poor, sick and old
      By using the dread V. A. T.
      It cuts down the income tax rate of the rich
      And the rate of the P. A. Y. E.

      There’s something so wrong with Community Care
      When communities don’t care a jot.
      They turn the psychopaths out on the streets
      Then leave them alone with their lot.

      There is something so wrong with the law of the land
      And the way that the country is run.
      While the rich and the famous shoot creatures for fun
      The rest live in fear of the gun.

      It cannot be right to make doctors concerned
      So much with the saving of cash.
      When the saving of life is their secondary aim
      The thinking is terribly rash.

      It’s wrong for the system to say to the old,
      Who have lived all their life with endurance,
      “We’ve spent all the money you’ve paid in to us
      To provide for your National Insurance”.

      There will come a day, and it’s not far away,
      When the system will face a rejection.
      Then the poor, and the sick, and the old, and the ill
      Will vote in the General Election.

      There’s nobody stands for the sick or the poor.
      There’s nobody stands for the old.
      There’s no one to fight for the right of the weak,
      Neither Labour nor Tory so bold.

      All history tells us the way of the World
      Will follow a true evolution
      Where greed and corruption are fought by the poor
      With anarchy and revolution.

      When a person is given a seat in the house
      The first thing they all seem to say
      Is, “we’ve come aboard this old gravy train
      So we’re asking a rise in our pay”.

      Then they all head away to the subsidised bars,
      Where they eat and they drink very hearty.
      Then they only come out, at the call of the whip,
      When they vote for the sake of the party.

      Now as far as I see, and you may well agree
      We all voted for MPs, et al,
      To vote for the good of the country at large
      And not for the party at all.

      There is no dafter sight than the left and the right
      As they sit on each side of the table.
      They shout, “Hey ya boo”, they reply, “Yea and you”,
      Just as hard and as loud as they’re able.

      Then as for the rest they stay silent at best
      And talk rubbish the rest of the session.
      The following rigidly of party lines
      Has become a debating obsession.

      I’m not worried at all, when my back’s to the wall
      By mad cows or the scrapie in sheep.
      But the system of government, we must all endure
      Has cost me a great deal of sleep.

      by Robert Peffers

    246. Macart says:

      I’ve had a bit of a think about the folk above the line. I’ve swung from incredulity to anger and back again several times over. Where I’ve finally wound up is sadness. They are who and what they are, products of their upbringing and environment. The end result of a three hundred year experiment in assimilation. Its not in them to step back and look around.

      How many of us here today started out in a different place, voting in a different way, believing in different ideologies, but were open enough to be able to step back and question that reality? I know upon a time with the upbringing I had, my own vote wouldn’t have questioned the system. The ball started rolling for me in 79. The eighties poisoned my will to participate in any politics whatsoever and it took Blair’s Labour to finish the job.

      Way back when, I was all for devo max and thought the parties of home rule (sick laugh) capable and willing to deliver (ah, younger eyes). Hell, even in the eighties I’d voted for both Labour and Liberal candidates.

      Here’s the thing though, those of us who had such a start, but still found ourselves where we are today, could step back and assess cause and effect. We could empathize with the plight of others. We were willing to open our minds to new possibilities and solutions, to different ways (older ways) of doing things.

      Basically they lack the drive or the ability to question authority and ‘accepted’ order. If a state, through a mixture of greed, inept mismanagement and corruption, has run up a £1.5tr debt, how effective is that stewardship? If this state then uses austerity ideology to balance the books and rewrite the democratic and human rights of its citizens, causing untold misery and hardship for the least able in its society along the way, just how fit is that state to govern and care for anyone? Finally when the politics and system which supports that state use all means at their disposal, including the media, to manipulate and drive your opinions, just who is the employer and who the employee? Is this democracy or governance on behalf of the people?

      The folk above the line aren’t capable of asking these questions, or if they have are frightened of the answers. The evidence as to why this political union should end is all around them, but they choose not to see. They also choose not to see that a different unity in these islands and a different way forward is possible.

      As I say, to me a sad state of affairs and the only way forward is to show by example. The state needs to lose ownership of the words union and unity, for it is not fit to use those words, their stock in trade being division, marginalisation and fear.

    247. Grouse Beater says:

      Peffers: “I agree with that, Grouse Beater.”

      Agreement is good. More here:

    248. Grouse Beater says:

      On the BBC as guardian of the British status quo, written by the son of former Director General Alastair Milne, an executive who wanted autonomy for BBC Scotland but got ousted for his ideas:

      “Around 40% of the staff were vetted by MI5: those who failed the “political reliability” test, often for the mildest of radical connections, were blacklisted – their personnel files marked with the symbol of a Christmas tree.”

      I can attest to every word as true. I saw those Christmas trees and questioned their meaning and existence, and then one day I found one on my file.

    249. Undeadshaun says:

      Off topic

      Does anyone know how to make a complaint regarding moderation on the guardians cif.

      I have had nearly every post I make deleted.

      The crime saying Kevin mckenna was not a patch on Ian Bell and then saying the article was hypocritical for banning me.

      The article was titled “how the SNP loves to ban people”

    250. Barbara Watson says:

      “Subsequently” Here is a new definition of the word.

      Despite all of the Scottish MPs voting against air strikes in Syria, the Westminster Government subsequently began bombing within hours of the vote.

      1st world problems, eh!

    251. yesindyref2 says:

      Yes I guess so. Apart from some new rabid posters there, some of the previous ones are going way over the top these days, encouraged by the extreme new DT or DM type posters. Anyway, I do post occasionally, but it’s as much as can be bothered, the forum is a cesspit, and that’s not just the posters. Perfectly acceptable postings just – disappear – as well.

    252. Nana says:

      @Robert Peffers

      Very excellent poem!


      Wonderful post.

    253. Ken500 says:

      Tommy Sheridan is not a ‘swinger’. There is no proof of any kind. There is proof that an illegal paper committed endless crime. Coulson told a complete bunch of lies at Tommy Sheridan’s illegal trial. Public money being used to protect a fraudulent Press Group, which went into liquidation to avoid the Law and litigation. Bribing public officials and illegal hacking.

      Coulson’s lies did affect the ‘political show’ trial, costing £Millions. If Coulson had told the truth about his vindictive illegal abuse, the jury would not have convicted Tommy Sheridan. It had a bearing on the verdict, The jury would have known Tommy Sheridan was bring illegally harrassed by the illegal actions of the Press. The criminals in the Press than tried to ridicule the truthful allegations to cover up the criminality of their association. The Labour/Unionists illegal ‘political’ trial, to try and take out a rival. Out of jealousy and malice. It is a disgrace and Tommy Sheridan should be admonished and given compensation,

    254. Big Jock says:

      Sunday politics reflecting Scotland on their panel. An English woman, man and Northern Eire man. What the fuck do they think they are doing!

      The hideous Katie Daily fail Grant. Trying to blame the bridge on the SNP. Starts off by quoting 1066 Anglo Saxon history when talking about the Scottish year. Why didn’t Brewer say fuck Off woman that is funkiness English history, your glorious Britain didn’t exist.

    255. ahundredthidiot says:


      Just watched daily politics Scotland, been a while, genuinely possibly the weakest and most pathetic effort at politics I have seen in a long time

      Won’t be tuning back in any time soon

    256. sinky says:

      Another SNP baaad Politics Show

    257. Undeadshaun says:

      Now guardian won’t post any comment and are premoderating everything.

      Meanwhile the usual suspects get away with swearing and similar.

      My crime criticise the guardian, I think I may stop reading it online now.

    258. heedtracker says:

      Another SNP baaad Politics Show

      Just the softening up, before PROJECT FEAR 2 BBC style kicks off January 1st 2016.

      They have to get Sturgeon out in May, or else.

    259. Dr Jim says:

      Sunday Politics with Gordon Brewer

      Plus three odious losers clasping their hands together in collective prayer that the SNP will somehow vanish

      Coz they’re weally weally Baad n we jist hate them so we do

    260. Ken500 says:

      The Guardian and banning. Ridiculous. Hilarious. The Oxbridge lot have excelled themselves. What bunch of total liars.

      The Police accessed the Press illegally. The Journalists access Police matters illegally. The Press and the Police acted illegally. The Police have signed the Official Secrets Act. Along with the Civil servants illegally acting against Scotland’s interest.

      There will be no more cash for Honours when Scotland is Independent. When Scotland gets tax raising powers, the wealthy tax evaders, NO voters will pay for the Deficit, they have caused. Until they vote YES and there is no Defict caused by Westminster policies.

    261. Ken500 says:

      Stop viewing the BBC and the Guardian rubbish. Extending their existence,

    262. scott says:

      I know it would be wrong but I was willing Kenny Gibson to get off his chair and grab Brewer and slap him all over the room he is so biased against the SNP just like his bosses,it’s about time that the SNP refused to go on any BBC program I know STV not much better but they don’t have the likes of Brewer.
      Did you notice the yearly clips showed MPs Mcgarry and Thompson but no sight of Rimmer who is due in court next year.BBC is crap

    263. heedtracker says:

      Ken500 says:
      13 December, 2015 at 12:35 pm
      Stop viewing the BBC and the Guardian rubbish. Extending their existence,

      Ken, BBC, Graun etc are all part of the opposition to SNP We do need to know the what and how they are trying to destroy Scottish democracy.

      Look at how the BBC hid Saville, for decades. You can rest assured that Saville got nowhere near BBC employee’s children. If it was public knowledge in this UKOK demcoracy, would he have got near anyone’s children?

      The further right UKOK goes, the more corrupt the establishment and the media get.

      The Guardian and its Scotland editor Carrell style henchmen are as good a bellwether as any.

    264. Robert Peffers says:

      @Croompenstein says: 13 December, 2015 at 12:16 am:

      “Never a bad time to drop this in, wise words from Don Roberto.

      The enemies of Scottish Nationalism are not the English, for they were ever a great and generous folk, quick to respond when justice calls. Our real enemies are among us, born without imagination

      Not a new trend it has to be said.

      When Boswell wrote the Life of Samuel Johnson, (published in 1791), it showed the admiration Boswell for Samual Johnson, all things London, England and the United Kingdom. In particular Boswell’s, “The Journal of a tour of the Hebrides with Samual Lohnston .” shows he English views of Scots and Scotland back then:-,+with+Samuel+Johnson&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjo-d7m69jJAhVJ2xoKHVIABy0Q6AEIOTAF#v=onepage&q=The%20journal%20of%20a%20tour%20to%20the%20Hebrides%2C%20with%20Samuel%20Johnson&f=false

      That link will allow you to read the text. BTW: Just by coincidence, today is the date of Boswell’s birthday.

    265. Undeadshaun says:

      I really don’t get Kevin mckenna he writes in the national then writes pieces like today’s in the guardian.

      I don’t think he is pro independence. He just pretends to get People to read his columns.

    266. Helena Brown says:

      Robert Peffers @ 12.55pm. Strange that you should mention James Boswell as we were talking about him with regard to how early the abuse if you like of Scots started, the accent was barbaric the people inferior etc. His Father, Lord Auchinleck may have been a High Court Judge but his accent was seen as awful and not fitting. I watched a programme years ago, it was a dramatisation and this is all I remember.

    267. Helena Brown says:

      Apologies if anyone else has mentioned this because been out most of the morning and not yet caught up.
      Yesterday afternoon was the only time I have seen a car with a Union flag cushion. After the Referendum you caught the odd car with the help for heroes sticker but that was all. Seems all those Unionists are not that proud of themselves that unlike those of the YES persuasion who still gleefully display their stickers and or their SNP Badges, the Unionist is a very quiet person. Those on the internet are normally almost illiterate, cannot spell, rude, lacking in humour. You would be almost be persuaded to think they lost.

    268. cirsium says:

      @scottieDog, 10.02

      thanks for the interesting link to the Dutch expertise in sea defences and its contribution to GDP.

      It does make me angry to think that we were on our way to building that kind of expertise in renewable energy technologies before the current sabotage by Westminster. We have to get out of this place!

    269. Conan the Librarian™ says:

      @ undeadshaun

      Join the club mate. I’m now an ex Guardian reader (Hootsmoneditor) thanks to their moderation policies.

    270. Grouse Beater says:

      Helen: “Strange that you [Peffers] should mention James Boswell as we were talking about him with regard to how early the abuse if you like of Scots started”

      Nowadays held to be a supremely gifted writer and essayist by academics and scholars alike. But how eerily fitting that he didn’t know it and choose instead to elevate and make famous an Englishman of lesser ability, one who indulged in a lot of badmouthing of Scotland.

      The only reason we quote Johnson and not Boswell is because Boswell was so damn clever in recording his every utterance and observation.

      To my certain knowledge, fifteen of Johnson’s researchers over the nine years of creating his dictionary … were Scottish.

    271. Lollysmum says:


      Just a small reminder. Please spare a few quid for Orkney 4 if you can manage it.

    272. schrodingers cat says:

      Conan the Librarian™ says:

      @ undeadshaun

      Join the club mate. I’m now an ex Guardian reader (Hootsmoneditor) thanks to their moderation policies

      ditto, I got banned 18 times…..used up all my lives
      it is as bad as the daily mail now

    273. ben madigan says:

      @ Big jock who wrote “Northern Eire man”.
      Lovely definition. Really great!
      It’s the first time I’ve heard that term but . . .
      I saw on google news this very morning that The Times itself, bastion of the UK establishment, was also using it.

      Hope it goes viral!
      It would certainly infuriate NI Unionists/Loyalists and Orange Order –
      They constitute a tiny minority on the island of ireland but for over 100 years have been threatening a violent backlash against any attempt to include them in the republic .

    274. caz-m says:

      The Guardian doesn’t half get plugged on this site.

      I don’t know anything about the Guardian, but it seems to be a favourite with some people who use Wings.

      Have some of you got shares in it? Is the Guardian a pro-Indy newspaper? As I say, I have never read the Guardian.

      But their seems to be a lot of direct links to the Guardian website. I thought that all Unionist newspapers were bad news.

      So is it all right to start putting up direct links to the Daily Record and the Daily Mail on here. If it’s ok for the Guardian, then is it ok for the rest of them?

      The Daily Record’s sales are dropping like a stone, partly because we try to avoid direct links to it’s website.

      The same principal should apply to the Guardian and links to some prick called Prof Tomkinson, or whatever he is called, should be discouraged.

    275. Lollysmum says:

      Ha ha Rev-all that anger & angst for nothing 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Just read your edit that the OED entry was changed between May & October 2015 so no longer applicable.Lol.

      They’ll probably try to claim credit for getting it changed when WE all know it was changed well before they started their petition. Another BritNat Fail

      Love it, thanks-made me smile 🙂

    276. heedtracker says:

      Have some of you got shares in it? Is the Guardian a pro-Indy newspaper? As I say, I have never read the Guardian.

      But their seems to be a lot of direct links to the Guardian website. I thought that all Unionist newspapers were bad news.

      That’s me caz-m. Youre right it is mad linking to such a fabulous pack of hypocrites and liars like the Graun.


      They’re often the most ferocious and nastiest opposition to democracy in Scotland, despite selling their British garbage as liberal, progressive, leftie, nice: is what makes them interesting?

      BBC used to try on Graun style prog/liberal bullshit too but that UKOK ship full of toryboys sailed a long time ago.

      Huffiington post ex top dude was on R4 a couple of weeks ago, explaining how news corps like Murdoch’s, Graun, the creeps that own Daily Heil, P&J etc are struggling to keep in the mix, forcing influence etc because of the web, but they’re still here, shitting on Scotland running Scotland, provoking trouble or influencing, you decide.

      ADBLOCK The most popular Chrome extension, with over 40 million users! Blocks ads all over the web.

    277. Thepnr says:


      Yes ADBLOCK, very useful tool. So too is just drag and drop on your favourites. No more clicks for them. Cut off their finance!

      You need the right tools to defeat the tools 🙂

    278. Thepnr says:

      Or if you use Chrome as your browser you can add the button to your browser. Right click on any link and job done, the page will be archived for you.

      No doubt available for other browsers.

    279. Lollysmum says:

      Mozilla Firefox own Adblock for me-works brilliantly & I don’t see any ads just white space where ad should be.

    280. Stoker says:

      @ caz-m (1.34pm).

      Well said, caz, it’s the very reason i’m starting to go off the btl. There is absolutely no excuse for it. It’s either laziness or they have hidden motives. Occasionally there will be the odd person who genuinely does need to learn how to archive.

      Three very good reasons why we should NEVER post direct links to Unionist web-sites, and at least 2 of these will apply to any given example:

      (1): NO unionist site will EVER allow us to post direct WOS links on their sites so we should return the same courtesy.

      (2): By using the archive facility you capture the article as evidence forever, you prevent them from changing their lying tripe at some later point, the BBC are particularly bad for this.

      (3): By using the archive facility you help prevent these unionist sites from pulling in valuable advertising revenue. Always use the archive facility and starve the unionist beast.

      If the archive facility will not accept the article you want to link to then just type the general message of that link, name the source and author but NEVER just post the direct link because not only will you be helping the unionist machine to defecate all over us, you also give a slap on the face to all those wingers who do make the effort to archive.

      I’ve done a wee search, just out of curiosity, and i’ll post the eye opening results later for all to see but right now i’ve got some DIY dentistry to perform on the poor individual concerned.


    281. Kevin Evans says:

      Hmmmmm – ok just finished watching toy story 2 – lol.

      After it was “songs of praise” and I caught it while coming out the shower. Anyway the point of the story. There were singing the carol “the first Noel” on the subtitles at the chorus on screen Noel was spelt nowell. I think if unionist want to complain about dictionary’s or spelling there should petition the BBC and there broadcasts and total spelling errors.

    282. crazycat says:

      @ Kevin Evans

      In general, I agree with you (I once complained to the BBC about a cinema trailer for one of their children’s programmes which referred to a cow, complete with udders, as “he”), but in this particular instance, they are not wrong:

    283. Kevin Evans says:

      Wow – I stand corrected – thanks.

    284. Thepnr says:


      Ah! There’s that Wings thing again. Educating the masses, including me. Ta 🙂

    285. heedtracker says:


      Are we permitted to quote or mention what we read in the news about Scotland and Scottish politics?

    286. Stoker says:

      heedtracker wrote:
      “Are we permitted to quote or mention what we read in the news about Scotland and Scottish politics?”

      You know fine well the points which we are making and i’ve made my points crystal clear in my post above at 4.20pm.

      Others may have the occasional genuine excuse of not knowing how to archive but certain individuals on WOS, and you’re the main offender, repeatedly ignore all pleas to cease posting direct links to unionist sites. Only you’ll know the reason for doing that!

      Some of us put in a helluva lot of time, effort and money, off-site, to promote WOS and bring new readers to the classroom. We don’t do it for people like you to then throw countless unionist links in their path.

      We bring them here to open their eyes to the truth, not to read the same unionist shite which suffocates their every waking moment, and we certainly don’t bring them here to help the unionists with their advertising revenues which helps pay for the anti-Scottish tripe they promote.

      There is absolutely no excuse for helping the unionist cause by posting direct links to their shite laden sites. None whatsoever!

    287. heedtracker says:

      We bring them here to open their eyes to the truth, not to read the same unionist shite which suffocates their every waking moment, and we certainly don’t bring them here to help the unionists with their advertising revenues which helps pay for the anti-Scottish tripe they promote.

      That’s too weak. WoS readers can make their own minds up and youre still reading unionist shite in archive.

      But out of respect for all WoS readers and commenters that get pissed off with btl cut n paste links, I will stop doing it. Or at least try to:D

      What’s interesting is just how irrelevant UKOK propagandists like The Graun are to the democratic debate in Scotland, which is also clearly deliberate, considering their excellent Australia coverage for example.

    288. Stoker says:

      OK, folks, here’s the wee bit of checking i did. I was getting a bit sick-and-tired of the same individuals constantly soiling threads with direct links to unionist sites.

      I suspected that “heedtracker” was the worst offender so i decided to pick a month at random, November 2015, the month just gone by. Now, when it comes to competition i like to think i’m a fair minded person but i wanted to test my suspicions.

      I went through all the posts for the month of November 2015 and started a count of direct links to unionist sites, (newspapers, tv sites, blogs, twitter accounts, political parties/branches etc etc), and i put “heedtracker” up against everyone else.

      Let me make it clear, these figures could be wrong because i did search at speed so i could easily have missed some. I then hit upon the idea of creating a 2015 WOS League Of Shame but 10-days into October i thought, feck that furr a game of soldiers and i abandoned the idea.

      I thought Scotland could do without another boring league where the outcome was as predictable as the rain falling on Scotland.

      Here’s what the month of November 2015 turned up:

      heedtracker – 155 direct links to unionist sites.
      All others – 161 direct links to unionist sites.

      Links to The National – 24
      Links to Sunday Herald – 3

      I’ll give a further breakdown of the 161 after i get a cuppa.

    289. Stoker says:

      heedtracker wrote:
      “But out of respect for all WoS readers and commenters that get pissed off with btl cut n paste links, I will stop doing it. Or at least try to”

      Thank you heedy, that’s all i ask, we can but try!

    290. Thepnr says:


      You just keep on posting links fella, I would miss them otherwise.

      Try though to use the archive button, I don’t want to pay them anything. No not even 0.01p which is about the value of a click.

      Give them NOTHING. For that is what they give us and is as much as they are worth to us.

    291. heedtracker says:

      Stoker, Thepnr, thank you for all your work and your patience too!

    292. Stoker says:

      The other 161 direct links to unionist sites break down as follows:

      (1): Petra posted 17 and these were mainly made up of repeating other peoples links in quotes.
      (2): Capella posted 13 made up of a mixture of tv and papers.
      (3): Nana Smith posted 11 made up mainly of tv and The Independent.
      (4): Onwards posted 7 made up mainly of repeat postings.
      (5): Caz-m posted 7 made up mainly of tv (BBC) articles.
      (6): Dcanmore posted 6 – can’t remember what these were.
      (7): Sinky posted 5 – can’t remember what these were either.
      (8): 8 Individuals all posted 4 direct links each.
      (9): 3 Individuals posted 3 direct links each.
      (10): 9 Individuals all posted 2 direct links each.
      (11): And 36 individuals all posted 1 direct link each.

      C’mon folks, why not make one of your New Year resolutions to up your game and archive those links – starve the beast!

    293. Stoker says:

      And finally, for those interested, here’s the findings for the 11-days of October i searched before giving up the ghost, and once again i could have missed some due to the speed i was searching.

      heedtracker – 59 direct links to unionist sites.
      All Others – 74 direct links to unionist sites.

      4 direct links to The National.
      3 direct links to Sunday Herald.

      Since it was only 11-days of October it’s not worth giving a breakdown but if anyone has any questions just fire away and if i can answer i will.

      Another interesting point to note is that out of all those individuals we have referred to as “Trolls” on here, not one of them post direct links to unionist sites. Food for thought, eh!

    294. Thepnr says:

      Interesting research but seriously Stoker we’re not here to pull up fellow posters for minor misdemeanors. That is all you could possibly describe posting a link to a unionist site as when the purpose is to increase knowledge.

      What is far more important is the content of that post and the link if it helps to educate. Wouldn’t you agree?

      Heedtrackers posts may not be to everyones cup of tea, but personally I think Wings would be a lot poorer without them.

    295. Finlay says:

      Add “fundilymundily” to the Oxford dictionary to balance the scales.


      1. Verbal diarrhea as a result of cognitive dissonance.

    296. Stoker says:

      @ Thepnr (9.36pm).
      Like a lot of others on here i don’t agree with helping the unionist cause if it can be avoided.

      Nobody is telling anyone not to post, the points have been made clearly, by all means, continue to post links and help educate but use the archive facility to do so.

      And i certainly made no reference to the quality, or otherwise, of heedtrackers posts, just the constant direct links to unionist sites which heedy has already started addressing, as you will see on the new thread, ‘Lie by lie’ at 9.10pm and 10.09pm

      Thanks, heedy, very much appreciated.

      And just for the record, i was not getting at heedy alone, heedy was (past tense) the main offender but i was, as i always do, addressing the problem which saturates these threads at times.

      We can educate without shooting ourselves in the foot by using the archive facility. There are also other important reasons for using the archive facility mentioned in my post at 4.20pm.

      Articles are important pieces of proof which need to be protected for future reference. The only way we can achieve that is by archiving them.

      Why go to the bother of writing an informative post and providing a link that will either disappear through time or have its content totally altered, as is often the case.

      The archive facility prevents this from happening and we need to get that message out to everyone, for our benefit.

      I often see Nana Smith posting a lot of good informative links, not to unionist sites but really good and informative links, but i shake my head in disbelief because a lot of her good work is going to be lost because they’re not archived.

      When people research back on old articles on WOS and they read down the threads, when they read a particular post and click on the un-archived link, they are probably going to come across dead space or a completely altered article not fitting the post.

      Anyway, my points have been made and hopefully you’ll see where i’m coming from. We can educate but not at our expense.

    297. Thepnr says:


      We’re in agreement then. Not surprised, we work best when we work together. Keep up the good work. There’s work needing finishing 🙂

    298. Capella says:

      A lot of work there.
      I think I’m pretty consistent in using archive for unionist press.

      I don’t use archive for sites which are not unionist such as, The National, other blogs such as WGD where increased traffic is a good thing.

      But point taken, I don’t usually archive BBC links unless I want them preserved for eternity which is rarely.

    299. Capella says:

      Also, some of my posts are to youtube videos. They don’t work in archive. I tested it out with this gewat Ketty Lester song but I wont work in archive. In fact it might not work as it is a mobile link which I will trim. Experiment.

    300. Stoker says:

      @ Thepnr (11.57pm) – Indeed we are 😉

      @ Capella (12.22am) – Yes, you are very consistent but i think it, if memory serves me correctly, was mainly BBC articles which kept your numbers up. And yes, i noticed the RTs and didn’t count them because i agree with you entirely.

      Just a wee extra point of note, Capella, again, if i remember correctly, i think it was mainly you and Marcia who were responsible for most of the links to The National and SH front pages which i found astonishing.

      You would think, given that they’re supposed to be pro-independence, that more contributors would promote them rather than leaving it to yous, wouldn’t you! Even though i personally am not a supporter of those 2 titles i still found it surprising.

      I still think your BBC articles are all worth archiving though and please don’t take any of this as a dig at you, or anyone else for that matter, it’s not meant to be and i’m only pointing out the findings and hoping folk will take note and respond accordingly.

      After-all, as Thepnr pointed out, we are all on the same side wanting the same things, independence for Scotland and success for WOS.

    301. Capella says:

      Will do BBC archive. No offence taken. 🙂

    302. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Just revisiting this page, before it is filed in the “Ignored” pigeon hole.

      And I just remembered this badge design we came up, a few months ago, inspired by “Rock”.

    303. Capella says:

      @ BDTT yes it’s sad how quickly posts get forgotten. Nice badge though, even the grammar police will love it.
      Maybe a new tab for Good Ideas should be set up?

    304. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Capella.

      I realised a fair while ago, that a page seems, nowadays, to have a life of slightly less than 24 hours.

      So I end up with four or five tabs active in Firefox, which I constantly refresh, of the newest pages. Last Friday and Saturday, I think I had 7 open at one point, because Rev Stu was in ‘prolific’ mode.

      But when a page hasn’t had a new comment for 24 hours, I close the tab.

      On a forum, where, if you add a comment to a topic, even after months, it bumps it to the top of the first page, you can sometimes resuscitate a discussion but WOS doesn’t work like that.

      How many readers actually scan the ‘who recently commented where’ column?

      Onnyhoo, I am now waffling so I will end this waffle.


    305. Will Podmore says:

      The ‘Rev’ writes of “demented anti-SNP tactical-voting campaign for this year’s general election – led by, among others, a frothing ultra-Loyalist-nutter-type …”
      Whatever happened to the site’s guidelines about abuse?

    306. Tom Wilde says:

      It wouldn’t surprise me if there might indeed be – if not “undying rage” – then at least a certain irritation among a subset of unionist voters. I don’t think it would be too hard to work out the reason for it. During the IndyRef, people were told that this was a once-in-a-generation chance to decide their country’s future. And if Yes had won, no doubt that would have been the case. Even suggesting a re-run of the vote in (say) 25 years time would have been shouted down as treason. Yet No having convincingly won, elements of the SNP pretty much immediately started agitating for a new vote. Tell me honestly – wouldn’t you be annoyed?

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