More crystal bollocks
Almost every newspaper today reported a declaration by George Osborne that a No vote would result in a boost to Scottish family incomes of a dramatic-sounding £2,000. The headline figure, which some papers gave a more negative spin, was actually a cumulative sum spread over 30 years (because “£67 a year per family”, or £1.29 a week, sounds rather less impressive as a compelling case for the Union).
It hinged on forecast economic growth of 4% – due to “extra trade, labour migration and cross-border investment” – compared to that in an independent Scotland.
Those are two pretty sweeping predictions. Is the Chancellor that good a fortune-teller?
Osborne’s argument relies on the assertion that an independent Scotland would be stagnant economically, despite having just gained control over the fiscal levers of the economy and retaining 100% of its wealth for itself.
The UK government paper suggests that even under EU trade rules, a new border would introduce regulatory, tax and legal differences that could cut trade between Scotland and the rest of the UK by as much as 80%, before going onto suggest that labour migration might fall from about 40,000 people a year to as few as 10,000.
(Although it’s not explained why migration would be hindered between two countries in a common travel area – the EEA – and hence signed up to promoting the freedom of movement of peoples within area, who all also speak the same language.)
As we’ve recently noted, it also ignores that Scots law is already separate from English law, along with the fact that despite different tax regimes, legal systems and even currencies the UK and Ireland are among each other’s biggest markets (around 42% of Irish exports go to the UK, while 32% of their imports come from here), with Ireland being regarded as the UK’s fifth most important trading partner.
But maybe the UK government’s just really terrific at predicting economies?
Jun 2010 – UK growth forecast revised down
Dec 2010 – UK economic growth revised down
Feb 2011 – UK growth revised down: what the economists are saying
Oct 2011 – Growth unexpectedly revised down to 0.1 percent
Nov 2011 – Mervyn King: UK growth outlook revised down
Mar 2012 – UK economic growth revised down to 0.3% contraction
May 2012 – UK first-quarter growth revised down
Dec 2012 – UK economic growth revised down for third quarter 2012
Feb 2013 – UK recorded growth of 0.2% for whole of last year
Jun 2013 – UK GDP Annual Growth Rate Revised Down to 0.3% in Q1
Hmm. There seems to be a trend there.
We don’t wish to tell anyone how to think, but readers may wish to treat Mr Osborne’s new-found ability to see three decades into the future with a certain degree of scepticism. Because based on his track record, even accurately predicting three months ahead is a feat beyond his ability.
There we have it, Ladies and Gentlemen.
A positive case for remaining in the union.
The work done by this site needs a descriptive noun. Deconstructivism. Is that acceptable?
Considering Osborne cant or wont see the mess of the UK’s overall economy, I find it pretty galling that this man can somehow predict the decline of an resource rich indepenent Scotland, in the future.
It reeks of another BT scaremongering story.
In three decades time, George Osborne will probably going back and forward to the toilet wondering why he cannot go for a Jimmy Riddle……that’s probably a more likely and accurate forecast than any of the pish he’s just come out with!! …..and has been coming out with ever since he became chancellor!!
Lovely stuff.
link to tinyurl.com
I particularly like the space monsters reference…
The UK border must be costing us a fortune!
Trident missile system £2.5 billion
Biased Broadcasting Corporation £300 million.
Cross-border trading £1.29 per week.
The look on McDougall’s face when Scotland votes YES – PRICELESS.
There are some things money can’t buy – freedom. For everything else there’s Wings Over Scotland.
YES Scotland.
Assuming Gideon is correct then, a Scotland free from Westminster would cost me £1.29 a week? (Allowing for inflation a couple of pennies in 30 years time) Worth every penny!
You’re misrepresenting the paper to a certain extent – and you don’t need to because there are other lines of attack that you could use.
I’ve done some work on this stuff within the EU (so that your CTA, EEA critique would hold there too) and the border effect result goes through: trade within a nation state is much higher than trade across a national boundary, even a national boundary within the EU. Why? Who knows, but we observe that this is the case. Likewise migration.
What’s the magnitude of this effect? It’s not 4% of GDP per year: HMT are claiming it’s 4% of GDP over 30 years i.e. HMT claim that growth in Scotland could be something like 0.13% per year lower due to this effect. If there were countervailing effects then it would not take much to overturn this result.
Two possibilities present themselves based on the mechanisms that HMT are talking about:
1) Migration. It’s true that numbers in and out across the border are approximately balanced these days (though this has not been the case over the 20th century, see link to dcomerf.blogspot.co.uk) but it is likely that this represents a net export of human capital from Scotland as we export the brightest and best of our young people to the City and import middle managers to run branch offices and pensioners to enjoy the views. Reducing flows could well benefit Scotland. Demographics demand that we cannot do with balanced flows anyway: we need “net imports” of young people. Hardly likely within union if political centre is dragged UKIP’s way.
2) Where do these gains from trade fall? Consider the following “case study” consistent with the scenario modelled in the HMT paper:
# under union there are low barriers to trade and large markets; a productive new Scottish firm takes advantage of this situation to expand; as part of this expansion it makes use of London’s comparative advantage in supplying head office services and moves it’s management and R&D divisions to London, keeping its call centre in Scotland.
# under independence barriers to trade are higher; the productive new Scottish firm cannot expand as much; so the overall output of the Scottish & rUK economies is lower; but this is London’s loss as the (smaller) firm stays in Scotland with its high quality management and R&D divisions providing high status employment; Scotland could easily be better off even if London were marginally (unnoticeably) worse off such that the sum of Scotland and rUK were even more marginally worse off.
The border effect is real and, all other things equal, it is a cost of independence which should not be rubbished. However, all other things are never equal, and there are many reasons to believe that Scotland is exporting its productive capacity south and may do better if, under independence, some incentives were provided to keep this investment and human capital here (at the same time as minimising those barriers to trade which will arise).
So a chancellor who can’t give us next year’s budget at this point in time is prepared to forecast Scotland’s finances over a thirty year period! Man he’s good!
And remember, HMT are currently working for political masters who want an In/Out referendum of the EU. The border effect applies there too.
@dcomerf
Thanks for that, very interesting.
I’ve consulted Zoltar made my wish for a YES victory in next years Referendum and it has been granted.
Make your wish come true. link to youtu.be
In my very little business world I try and get everything made in Scotland BUT because in some cases English based companies have greater turnover and so lower costs it’s not always easy. But if, as pointed to by @dcomerf, an independent Scotland can introduce incentives and smaller companies can be encouraged to grow then perhaps it will generate more overall demand which in turn makes them more competitive. Not to mention an increase in jobs.
dcomerf, since you study this what has been the effect on other newly independent countries. Lativia for example seems to have bucked the ozzie trend, Montenegro is not doing bad either.
“and there are many reasons to believe that Scotland is exporting its productive capacity south and may do better if, under independence, some incentives were provided to keep this investment and human capital here (at the same time as minimising those barriers to trade which will arise).”
It would be a very stupid or naive Scottish Government that would not provide these incentives. Airport taxes and Corporation taxes are but small examples. The very act of taking in house 100% of our governance and revenues will also create positive economic activity, both public and private sector. Only unionists seem to think, nay desire, that Scotland will become stagnant unless we send our revenues to London to be grudgingly oozed back to us through the Westminster sausage machine which in itself costs us a pretty penny. The savings made alone on The London Scottish political elite and their hangers on are enormous. That and the savings on the MOD account will be a great kick start to economic prosperity. Since 2007 the SNP have done pretty well even being under the influence of the sausage machine. They will make Scotland a Tiger economy and that is what ozzy and his posh pals are terrified of. London’s hegemony being challenged.
This is what’s so great about this site – deconstructing and reducing the naysayer’s arguments. Thanks @dcomerf.
And funny too @paula rose. I agree. Only £1.29? Bargain. And we’d probably get a fiver rebate for keeping great companies in Scotland!
(around 42% of Irish exports go to the UK, while 32% of their imports come from here),
Of course it goes without saying that Scotland is an important market place for England and and vice versa and that will always be the case. The people of London for example are self-sufficient in absolutely nothing.
Its also the case that the UK being worried about its trade with Ireland gave an £8 billion or so interest free loan, not to help the Irish economy but to help itself.
We always seem to be having to reply to the claims of Project Fear rather than asking them what happens to EU citizens in the UK if England and Wales wants to “separate” from the EU and what happens to UK citizens in the rest of Europe if little England has its way.
We should also know what services the No campaigns Cuts Commission is planning to cut and for whom, given that all three “No” parties are proposing cuts.
Of course, the media and press are not covering these issues, almost as if they didnt exist, but that doesnt mean we all should.
Lets start making a headline and asking a question rather than responding to them!
Any suggestions?
I love this site…nae sh!te, just truth. This is why I like to be a ninja poster all over the borders , and I have to say a big thank you to poster boy!! And, by the way, this comment would’ve taken me 40 mins to write (due to disability plus dyslexia) but my wife has taken over typing (and correcting) this while I attempt to cook sausages! Aye, and the wife (ME!) is voting for independence too! lol
So it occurs to me…We do a Panelbase poll, get interesting results that are ignored by almost everybody, including the SNP/Greens/SSP/YesScotland as well.
Couple of weeks later a Yougov poll by (basically) the no side comes out and then within a day or two another Panelbase poll, this time from the SNP, that throws the previous polls results into the gutter since it’s the same company that was amongst the first to predict the SNP win…
Could the poll we did have gave them the IDEA for it but they knew it would be ignored (for the “reasons” we were given)?
Then they keep it until the next big “bombshell” from the Nay Team and boom…neutered!
Or am I being daft…?
Make that £2000 extra per week and I’ll think it over.
It seems that 30 pieces of silver has had inflationary estimates added.
STV Blockbuster from Gordon Brown – (for about 15 seconds) “We shall make Holyrood irreversible” (Ehhh???)
First Minister – “Gordon Brown is talking boxxocks Westminster will remain sovereign and can in future reverse any decision it makes. Only the Parliament of an independent nation state can be sovereign. I would have thought he should have known that”.
Almost burst out laughing at the incompetence.
@dcomerf
Could the border effect you describe be due to the fact that many of the borders between EU states are also linguistic borders, at least in terms of official languages? If so, it would not be relevant to Scottish independence unless Scotland’s official language were changed to Gaelic or broad Scots.
“what has been the effect on other newly independent countries”
Hard to tell with the ex-Soviet countries. They achieved independence at the same time as they changed their economic system and joined the (trading block of the) EU. So of course their trade with the rest of the world has benefited since independence.
Also they were ridiculously integrated previously: my colleague describes Slovakia and Czech Republic as a case in which left shoe factories were located in Slovakia and right shoe factories were located in Czech: of course they’re seen a reduction in trade with each other.
@dcomerf
Thanks, really interesting….
Could it be the case that much of the raw material and component engineering type work is export to England is actually then re-exported outside of the UK ?
Someone on here made a good point recently about export from UK being dominated by English ports counting all exports as English because Scotland has few major exporting points.
So, I will have to wait 30 years to have achieved £2000 if I vote NO, well I believe I might be dee’d by that time, I hope no, and with a bittie of luck my disabled scooter will be a hover job programmed to find a bar everytime.
If this tripe is honestly suposed to encourge us to vote NO they certainly dont think alot of about us, this has to a “too stupid” No story.
Hail Alba. Vote YES, Vote Scotland.
STV Scotland Tonight covering recent polls and varying results (reasons) !!
Should be good
George Osborne’s budget announcements, let alone projections, don’t last 30 days (forget 30 years).
@Scaraben “Could the border effect you describe be due to the fact that many of the borders between EU states are also linguistic borders, at least in terms of official languages?”
It’s just that we see very little differences between the effect of borders in the EU and between US & Canada. It could be that it’s all linguistic in EU (though there are example like UK/Ireland (though there’s a sea), France/Belgium (though there’s Flanders), Netherlands/Belgium (though there’s Wallonia) etc) and all regulatory between US and Canada. The evidence is quite suggestive that national borders matter.
For anyone interested, here’s my response to the previous Scotland Analysis paper from BIS that also discussed the border effect: link to dcomerf.blogspot.co.uk
Borders do matter as it enables countries to protect home industries – though I am sure that leads to longer term economic problems in the protective market, e.g. the US car industry.
The nature of what you export must be an important factor. If Scotland were totally reliant on low value, low skill, universally available product then I could see a problem and a need to re-balance the economy. I don’t see this in Scottish industry. It would also be good to look beyond UK & Europe.
O/T Still no WoS listed among the groups joining the Rally: 🙁 Bella’s there…
link to independencerally.com
Rev, time’s getting a bit short. Are we going to march together or not? You decide….
“Rev, time’s getting a bit short. Are we going to march together or not? You decide….”
I’ll see if I can get this all sorted tomorrow. Still deciding which kind of flag to get.
@ turnip_ghost – I have to agree with you regarding the lack of acknowledgement of the previous WOS poll by the folk you mentioned, yet they trumpet loud and clear about their own.
The strange but excellent thing is on WOS we have folk from all colours of the political spectrum and those who have no allegiances at all. The one unifying feature is that they want a Scotland that is inclusive of all, and formed by the popular vote of the people.
I shall wait with interest to see what happens in the near future when WOS conduct the 2nd Poll and who gives it credence. I have noted that many Yes Independence websites link to WOS and they are far too many to list on this post.
Peeved a wee bit but willing to be corrected in the usual fashion.
@dcomerf – thank you for all that info.
Slightly o/t but there is a serious issue to do with Rosyth ferry port. Last time I checked there were no longer passenger ferries running between there and Europe. That service needs renewed urgently, for the obvious reason that we could bring European tourists straight here to Scotland as literally their first port of call rather than rely on those travelling by ferry landing at an English port and taking the time and expense to visit us in North Britain. Though there is freight transport there, I got the impression (which may be wrong) that this was restricted to importing vehicles – we can surely do a lot better than this.
O/T:
New BBC referendum editor:
link to pressgazette.co.uk
Eva
Dundee has a deep water port and a roll on roll off facility. I’m not sure if it is still in operation though.
@ dcomerf
I am aware that exports from the UK are attributed to the country of their port of departure ie Scotch exported through Felixtowe is an English export. Does this mean that said Scotch is accounted for as an export / import as it crosses the Scotland / England border?
Apologies if this a stoopid question.
link to news.stv.tv
Watch Gordon and then AS on the video that goes with the story.
PS:
Heard Gordon did his thing in a church once used by his father . aaaagh… nice!!
Tremendous work today, Rev.
@ Cameron B – sounds like a campaign to reopen Dundee as a passenger terminal 🙂
@Boorach
My guess is, given we’re currently in the UK ,there’s no border count as it were. So port of departure and its record is when it leaves the UK, wherever that’s from, currently mainly in England.
@dcomerf
Dose you comment take into account the existing and historical trade between Scotland and England?
I would have thought that “our” border would be less of a problem than that between two countries that just happen to be neighbours.
O/T BBC Reporting Scotland leads with the Peru drug story and an interview done with the Scottish woman’s dad done by ITV in London, bloody hopeless.
Risible programme, sadly quite a few folk in Scotland watch it. And there’s another Newsnight Scotland special tonight on pensions and welfare. Don’t know the line up.
Any border effect such as it is would be mitigated in full by the huge saving and economic boost we will have when we no longer subsidise the rest of UK and we can use our own revenues to invest in our own country. Westminster has deliberately suppressed our economy how could we possibly do worse?
Interestingly in the SNP poll,24% of participants who voted Labour, in the Scottish Parliament constiuency vote in 2011,indicated that they intend to vote YES in the 2014 referendum.
Thats almost a quarter of people who voted Labour in 2011 now intending to vote for independence,
Albalha
But Totally un-biased didn’t mention either poll.It’s not as if it’s important or anything.
@ Andy – B
it seems that support for LFI is far higher than expected, and more significant than BT want to believe. Maybe would explain JoLa’s temporary summertime absence from the front line though.
I notice Glen Campbell on Reporting Scotland had a tie made from the offcuts of The jaicket.
As Albahala has pointed out.
22.30pm
Duration: 50 minutes
Glenn Campbell hosts a special Newsnight Scotland debate on the future of welfare and pensions in Scotland. He’s joined by a specially selected audience who get the chance to put their questions to an expert panel.
Sure I also previously posted on another thread that on 5th September 2013 STV are also doing their second head to head debate no surprises covering pensions and welfare squaring up to each other Nicola Sturgeon Deputy First Minister v Anas Sarwar Deputy leader Scottish Labour Party.
Just a thought.
Most Scots political programming starts around 10.30/11.00 o’clock, and runs for an hour or so. Apart from 9am office workers, I would guess most manufacturing workers that start at 6/7/8 am are in their beds by then.
How relevant are these political programmes to the average voter?
@juteman
Their viewing figures are miniscule.
Well done Gordon Brown!,
He has just highlighted to millions of Scottishviewers via the B.B.C. And I.T.V., that
westminster can dissolve our parliament , and any other that they see fit to reclaim.
ought to make a lot of people think more about the choice, come “I” day!.
O/T ?
Have you seen this one
link to twitter.com
Brilliant
Regarding Nicola vs Anas I hope she asks him this question. “Anas, would you like to tell the viewers in Scotland now that you are without Parliamentary Privilege if you will repeat your comment in Westminster that you think that Holyrood is NOT a democracy in the ordinary sense, but a dictatorship run from Bute House?”
Even a slight fudge will condemn him, and if he starts to bluster it will condemn him as well.
Annoying little sh*te
State Propaganda Broadcaster (National ?)- Nothing on todays Poll lead for YES
Socttish Television – Covered the Poll with YES lead and ‘Browns Incompetence’
also revisited Yougov garbage ‘just to balance out’.
Nothing strange at all for Mr J Mullins first day then ???
I’ll see if I can get this all sorted tomorrow. Still deciding which kind of flag to get.
The largest iris possible please, to help folk focus.
“The largest iris possible please, to help folk focus.”
You’ll get a Wings logo and like it 😀
Have signed us up for the rally. And now that I’m fully paying attention, wow, I can hardly think of a worse place anywhere in Edinburgh to hold one. What were they thinking? It’s the wrong shape, it’s all fragmented, it’s almost impossible to photograph well unless you hire a helicopter, there’s no natural “stage” area, and if you’re going to have folk go on a big long march you don’t put the whacking great hill to climb at the END, for God’s sake. I hope they’ve got paramedics laid on for all the knackered old folk.
(And if it’s a windy, rainy, or as we like to call them Scottish-style day in late September, it’s going to be absolutely bloody FREEZING in such an exposed spot. The eldsters who manage to struggle to the summit will be finished off by pneumonia.)
Calton Hill is probably my favourite place in Edinburgh, which is why it would have been a great place to START a march FINISHING in the Meadows, which is a big open space that can accomodate lots of folk, have a stage at one end, and be possible to take publicity-friendly photos of no matter how many people are there (with plenty of room for broadcast media access too). Oh, and the focal point of the hill is a folly.
Ah well, too late to fret now. But sheesh.
Today as I went to meet other Pensioners on our trip out to Pitlochry. I noticed on the Courier news boards outside the newsagents ‘New Poll has Yes Campaign in Front’. I nearly did cartwheels, not recommended at my age. Still I didn’t buy the paper. 2 of my travelling companions in the car I was in mentioned the poll and why they have moved away from No to an almost Yes. I just listened to what they said and didn’t think I needed to say anything more. The information will be passed on.
Gordoz: It is BBC policy not to feature opinion polls as a news item. Pity……..
OT Is anyone else unable to Login to the Scotsman site?
“OT Is anyone else unable to Login to the Scotsman site?”
Yes, everyone who’s ever posted a pro-indy comment.
Went up with the Catalans last week going to be very difficult for everyone to see speakersw and if it’s huge some are going to need climbing boots.
“There are some things money can’t buy – freedom. For everything else there’s Wings Over Scotland.”
ha ha ha ah ha as the man said, PRICELESS
As of 12 noon today I have been unable to copy ( eg: a headline) and paste onto a comment from any Scotsman story.
Blue screen makes the copied (eg: headline) impossible to read when pasted.
link to newsnetscotland.com
New look at the polls on NNS.
Do we know how popular their website is?
Mr and Mrs drygrangebull,
its a privilege to make you acquaintance,
I do so hope you can make it to Calton hill on 21st?, it would be great to see you there.
Dinghied by the Scotsman.wtfigo
Aye there is something going on at the Scotsman.
Very few comments : But here is one I copied.
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This is a wonderful forum.Almost cybernat free. Shame they don’t have the intellect to know how to get signed on!Fantastic.
@Rev Stu
Yes, I would have preferred speeches on the Meadows as well. It would have been good to start on Carlton Hill.
Have posted on the scotsman many hundreds of times, only once had a complaint which was not upheld by the moderator. I cannot log on now from any of my computers, i hope that it is an error. If not it is censorship of the crassest type and we should make it clear that this is going on! I am beginning too feel sympathy for the graffiti art who daubed their offices a few months ago…… profetic or what!
@muttley79 & Rev Stu
Thirded. Also, we’re just off the Meadows so you could have all come round for ‘tea’ afterwards (not ‘tiffin’, note).
Rev Stu says; “What were they thinking? It’s the wrong shape, it’s all fragmented, it’s almost impossible to photograph well unless you hire a helicopter, there’s no natural “stage” area, and if you’re going to have folk go on a big long march you don’t put the whacking great hill to climb at the END, for God’s sake. I hope they’ve got paramedics laid on for all the knackered old folk.”
LOL now you sound like Robin Williams discussing Golf
:o)
call me dave says:
Aye there is something going on at the Scotsman.
Very few comments : But here is one I copied.
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This is a wonderful forum.Almost cybernat free. Shame they don’t have the intellect to know how to get signed on!Fantastic.
Nobody reads it anyway. I wish you would all just stop obsessing with it. It’s like watching the monkeys at the zoo consuming each others shite!
Ignore it and it’ll go away.
Call me Dave
If you copy the Scotsman article onto Word or other programme then use the remove format button (like far rioht above) you should get rid of the blue / black bit of screen.
To get onto Scotsman (I haven’t tried this) you could create a new google Gmail personna and try registering with a new user name if you must.
Tick Tock Rabb… Tick Tock. ;o)
I reckon the march should end at the top of the Scot Monument.
good news at last
rabb says:
Aye I know … Scotsman & Women cannie help it!
OK 24hrs cold turkey
Linda’s Back
Thanks : I’ll try it (when Rabb is not keeking) but on Wednesday maybe!
Looking forward to 21st hope for good weather.
Interesting contribution dcomerf. The government of an independent Scotland should aim to encourage and facilitate produce and goods with high technical and quality barriers. Quality and technical excellence will always sell.
Scotch whisky is a good example. So too Scotch beef. Stewart Lochead’s recent statement that there are no GM crops grown in Scotland is an important quality slogan.
I worked in the engineering industry and through my career I often considered that Scotland was best suited as an ideas/innovator nation selling on innovations to the volume producing economies.And its less boring than volume production!
It’s a pity that science has been stifled by this “No GM” mantra which is nothing but an unthinking soundbite. And in a country where bioscience ranks high in the skills listings, and the home of Dolly the sheep, too.
Stu, if you don’t tell us VERY VERY SOON what it is you’re not tweeting about, the consequences will be extremely serious.
“Stu, if you don’t tell us VERY VERY SOON what it is you’re not tweeting about, the consequences will be extremely serious.”
It’s okay. The urge has passed. It would have been a BAD IDEA.
Newsnicht debate tonight about independence, pensions and welfare. Jackie Baillie’s new phrase is ‘sharing the risks and rewards’. Not sure what rewards she’s referring too in a welfare system that pretty much treats everyone like a suspected fraud case in exchange for derisory sums of money. Oh and she reckons Scotland could create it’s own welfare system but it just shouldn’t. Make of that what you will.
Jackie Baillie is not one of Labour’s foremost philosophers.
@Hand and Shrimp,
She is not. Though she’s an excellent parrot ‘risks and rewards’, ‘risks and rewards’. Mind you she did claim that Labour will in fact abolish the Bedroom Tax after teasing us all that time.
That is NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
Morag
Has Stu not been accused of molesting enough sacred cows this week already?
😉
Chill.
Tweeting is not good for your health
Re – The Scotsman.
So we can’t log in – that’s not a bad sign. Let them have it, they’re depriving themselves of much needed web traffic (which is already in decline and was previously claimed by the new high priest, Ashley – ex BBC- Highfield as the route of saving the publication.)
This is the beginning of the end of that particular rag, and not only financially. A paper full of commentary from one side only will soon become ignored and die a death, much like Labour Hame and much like the rest of the heavily censored Unionist web presence.
Hearing one side of an argument can be boring, but not a death threat to survival. Hearing the same old tired, negative lies about ‘how crap we are’ journalism followed by a few comments agreeing how crap we are will be the final nail in the coffin. It will bore the pants off even the most ardent of unionists.
I haven’t logged in for months and have no intention of doing so, we can see articles archived or we can read about them here. That’s me finished with them once and for all.
Dipped into the Newsnight debate, who is the guy with the square head at the end with the Project Fearometer turned all the way up to 11?
tartanfever
That is a fair point, the Unionist posters and trolls will soon get bored and move off to places where they can get a bite. It will be a pyrrhic victory that will quickly taste sour.
M4rkyboy at 8.45 pm
OT Is anyone else unable to Login to the Scotsman site?
I was unable to login with my original name and details I think because of its new web site. I was asked to re-register which I did with no problems using a new name and PW because the old ones are still on the system. I don’t think it is sinister. I had to do the same thing last year when the web site was changed.
@HandandShrimp
The so called expert panel consisted of Alex Johnstone MSP (Con), Jamie Hepburn MSP (SNP), Jackie Baillie MSP (Lab), Eben Wilson (Taxpayer Scotland) and Robin McAlpine (didnae catch who he was representing) but seemed pro indy.
Lest anyone should forget, this Osborne character is the same millionaire toff who re-mortgaged his million pound “farmhouse” Second home, which he owned outright, then claimed a hundred grand back from the tax payer, if he said it wiz rainin, a wid look oot the windae !!
As a widower I obviously have had to go get my own food and household needs, rather than only push a trolley and let the wife do the thinking in this regard.
Now that I do this myself it brought me to realize just what is on supermarket shelves, and where it comes from. Frequently I scour the shelves for Scottish supplied foods, there are few to find..
Well, it will come as no surprise to housewives, but it was to me, almost EVERYTHING on our shelves comes from England. Look in all the large chains and they are bursting with English produce. Sometimes I find a rare item made in Scotland maybe about 10 or so, among thousands of items. It is a huge market for rUK, make no mistake about that.
All this rubbish of cross border trade, that would lose Scotland a lot of trade with rUK if we become independent is absolute lies. There is no way, that the companies who supply Scotland would not stand for it, they would lose a fortune,such is their hold on what Scots eat, and everything else.
Have a real look at the shelves, their business is mind boggling, they supply well, damn near everything. So take no heed to the scare stories over this stuff.
There is no hope in hell it would happen, the suppliers and manufacturers across rUK would suffer as would their economy.
It could of course be a massive boost to Scottish suppliers, Scots could gear up across all kinds of food supplying, local suppliers would expand, jobs and wealth would be created.We would only buy in, what we cannot supply ourselves. The jobs created hear across our farming communities would be huge, do you think rUK wants that to happen to their detriment. Er ABSOLUTELY NOT!
I do think after Independence “all supermarkets should have to source local Scottish suppliers” as far as is practical. This would be their contribution to a Scottish economy !
cticlal
And yet, we know that Scotland is self-sufficient in food supplies, whereas England is not. There may be something distorting the labelling, such as processing in England, or it may simply be that our (say) 10% contribution to the general pot looks small in context.
But it’s all completely irrelevant. We’ll go on supplying them with prime steak and langoustines, and they’ll go on supplying us with whatever it is they supply us with. It’s as simple as that.
Having said that, it’s not possible to force supermarkets to source from one particular area. Incentives are the way to go. But at the same time, the Scottish farming sector is pretty well run and pretty efficient. The main reason for job losses is greater mechanisation (for example one man can look after an entire herd of dairy cattle these days).
We need to be thinking about maximising exports of high quality luxury produce unique to Scotland. Boring stuff that grows better in the south can be imported without harm to our economy.
@ Morag; explain please in what way is science stifled by what you term an unthinking soundbite of “no GM”? Science is free to experiment and develop projects in the laboratory. The acid test is whether the science-developed product has a commercial value and is to the benefit of humanity.
i don;’t track the subject of GM food avidly but a few concerns have floated past me, whether correct I cannot say:
ist Sept Sunday Herald – “Why has study saying GM could kill been ignored?”.
Once introduced to farmland GM cannot be reversed?
Monsanto’s commercial intent to dominate the GM market and subsequently to have a price monopoly. Is it correct that seeds taken from a GM crop are non-productive as feedstock for the following year?
Diabetes seems to be on the rise. So too gluten,wheat and dairy intolerance. Is that just simply my impression, what do the statistics show? – bearing in mind how polling stats. are interpreted of course.
les wilson, Lidl sees Scottish produce as a big plus in their stores, Saltires everywhere.
Tree of liberty
Yes, you are right Lidl and Aldi give our producers a good crack of the whip.
They do more than the UK chains. Just think how it could be if we actually did supply a good percentage of our usual UK chains in Scotland. Farms more prosperous, more land sequestrated for growing of crops more farm animals, more workers, packaging plants more employment and wealth filtering through from a big increase in related employment. THAT IS HOW WE SHOULD MAKE IT BE.