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Minds locked shut

Posted on April 07, 2019 by

Alert readers may have noticed that the deadline for the Conservative Party to respond to our formal query about their fake indyref 2 “petition” was about to expire (today, in fact), but fear not, compliance fans – at the eleventh hour a reply was received.

This is it:

So we’ve asked the obvious question.

If we don’t hear anything back next week, we’ll consider the deadline to have expired without a satisfactory response and instigate an official complaint with the Information Commissioner’s Office.

(We’ll also be raising the same issue with our old pals Scotland In Union.)

We will, as ever, keep you up to date with developments.

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    80 to “Minds locked shut”

    1. Andy Anderson says:

      Well done for keeping the leash tight

    2. frogesque says:

      Not so much data mining, more data fracking.

      Dirty, underground and destructive to Scotland.

    3. Mogabee says:

      Compliance officer who obviously dislikes being compliant!

      I see the site has been amended to add the caveat of when petition is to be presented though to have it running for 4 years is a tad excessive.

      Cannot wait to see what they come up with next. 😀

    4. Hamish100 says:

      Interesting. An oversight on their part (hard to believe) or intentional? Based o.n previous exploits I think the latter would not be a surprise.

    5. Donald anderson says:

      Sounds like an EBC standard non reply to all complaints.

    6. Old Pete says:

      Never trust a Tory.

    7. Alex says:

      Good stuff, Stuart.

      The English state – and its political system in the ‘UK’ – thrown into sharp relief. And looking all the uglier for it. Re data harvesting: I am assuming – I am no expert – that this may be in breach of GDPR regulations.

    8. Street Andrew says:

      Even when they aren’t actually lying they don’t know how to be honest…..

    9. Derick fae Yell says:

      That’s made my morning

    10. galamcennalath says:

      “… the next elections to the Scottish Parliament to demonstrate the strong opposition to a second Scottish Independence Referendum “

      Firstly, I sincerely hope Independence will have been fully achieved by May 2021!

      Secondly, even if it weren’t and we were forced to have another devolved election, what is the logic of a petition on the eve of an election? Surely it is the election which will demonstrate up-to-date opinion, not a petition which has been running for half a decade! This just doesn’t seem like an intended plan, more like a feeble excuse.

    11. Bob Mack says:

      I thought the compliance officer was Gerry Mander.

      Usually is with Tories.

    12. Sinky says:

      SCOTTISH Labour candidate for Glasgow East and former Better Together boss has been called on to explain her links to a “military propaganda unit” within the British Army.
      Kate Watson is believed to be part of the Berkshire-based 77th Brigade which manipulates digital media.

      From Sunday Herald this morning

    13. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “though to have it running for 4 years is a tad excessive.”

      Six years. 2015 to 2021.

    14. manandboy says:

      A Tory politician sees voters in the way a sparrow hawk sees sparrows.

    15. Dek says:

      Thicko Schoolboyish response from Tories. Kicking the can down the road. They have no respect for the electorate, trusting their bought and paid for media chums to polish their turd.

    16. Robert Peffers says:

      As the old Scots saying goes, “Ye couldna whack thaim wi a muckle stick.”. But ye could aye try.

    17. Mountain shadow says:

      Given the demographic of the No vote, there is a very good chance that many respondents to that petition will be brown bread come 2021.

    18. HandandShrimp says:

      Given 60,000 or so people die every year in Scotland a six year petition (especially a Tory one) is likely to be as representative of the wishes of the deceased as the living and probably not much use as a data mining exercise.

    19. Breeks says:

      A petition with no expiry date is materially different from a petition with an expiry date. The Data Protection Regulations make that distinction, not me.

      If due process requires petitions to have an expiry date, the petition which had no expiry date when signed becomes void and invalid.

      Rip it up and start again Tories. Tsk.

    20. Ahundredthidiot says:

      Andrew Marr ‘if there is one party at westminster not split over brexit, it’s the Greens…..since they have only one MP’

      Fuck me, britains right wing propaganda machine in full flow. just completely ignore the existence of the uk’s third largest party.

      they dont even know they are doing it, which is worse than any conspiracy.

    21. Dr Jim says:

      But… but Scotland voted NO in 2014 I thought that was it over for all time, strong and stable broad shoulders and we’ll crush you if you try again

      Sort of, we love you and to prove how much we love you we’ll destroy you

      Now that’s real love and I’m feeling the orderlyness of it

      BTW Scotlands seafood not a priority post Brexit the UK government tells Scotguv’s Michael Mathieson BBC reports this am

    22. GORDON FORREST says:

      Of course We can all write to Mr Steadman ( Compliance Manager & data Protection Officer)therefore his responibility to check and ensure that there are no bogus, false or multiple entries in his petition,telling him that we have now changed our minds and to remove our names from his petition.
      Should our name appear on their submission in 2021 After we have legally requested its removal he will be in breach of data protection legislation and we will report him for it ( there are some hefty fines for breaching these laws)Of course Mr Steadman may find that he has to spend hundreds of hours doing these checks only to find that the names he is checking are not actually on the petition. Neither is old uncle jimmy who signed up too and now wants his name removed. He may just find that the hours checking and removing names outweighs any benefits in presenting such a petition. Oh Aye when you do request the removal of your name and uncle Jimmy’s remember to ask for confirmation in writing.
      I know that postage is not cheap these days but a) it takes longer to process than it does electronically therefore more man hours and B) The reply costs them too!

    23. Stuart Colligan says:

      Tories trying to give the dead a say on Scottish independence AGAIN!!!
      Have they nothing new at all, to come up with in their policy making department?

    24. Hamish100 says:

      ot – so the seafood industry such as suppliers and distributors of molluscs to the EU is not a priority to the UK government.

      I am sure those really nice fishing families (godfathers) from Aberdeenshire will sail the food to the EU for their fishing colleagues from the west and islands. Maybe not.

      More fishing jobs likely to be lost here. Tends to show the Scottish Fishing Federation doesn’t really care about fishing industry overall– just the one or two millionaire owners.

    25. Les Wilson says:

      I guess 2014 gave them such a fright that they started thinking, very quickly realising that Indy 2 could be a reality.
      “Oh well we will stop it by starting a petition right away and let it run to whatever date it is going to be.”

      Never mind the downside of such actions, how very Tory.

    26. Dorothy Devine says:

      They need the dead and the undead – certainly according to a tory minister in Westminster.

    27. One_Scot says:

      This is exactly why I have nothing but unquestionable admiration for the work you do.

    28. Craig P says:

      A petition started in 2015 that wasn’t intended to be delivered prior to the 2016 Holyrood election, or even the 2017 Westminster election, but the 2021 Holyrood election?

      Hmmm…

    29. John Jones says:

      What do they think will happen after brexit to all these fish they catch in OUR waters when they try to land them in Europe? Oops! Not allowed due to import regs?
      How much of the catch is sent to Europe presently?
      We’ll just have to go on a complete fish diet.

    30. Robert Peffers says:

      Sorry to go kind of O/T but this Ian Blackford speech has the answer to these things over and over again.:-

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SuJh1OqoKQ

      He not only states several times that Scotland will not be dragged out of the EU but states that the People of Scotland, NOT WESTMINSER are sovereign but also that Westminster has already agreed they are. He is not contradicted.

      It is a long speech but just about every word of it is important and note that not a single intervention even attempts to say the Scots people are not sovereign or states Scotland will be dragged out against their people’s will. In fact Westminster has already agreed to both points.

      So why is his points hot being published by the MSAM? Why has none of the broadcasters featured these points?

      If they had would the Tory petition even matter as we will be out of the Westminster madhouse before then. I really don’t get it – with these regular statements right in the HOC chamber that go undisputed, why are the MSM/Broadcasters not screaming it from their headlines/broadcasts?

    31. Marcia says:

      They got caught and they don’t like it.

    32. Abulhaq says:

      Scotland has reached an existential X roads. The route is clearly marked. The way should not be obscured by the identitarian ‘metropolitan’ politics that the SNP under the current great leadership has unwisely embraced.
      The prospect of the UK being kicked out of the EU with ‘no deal’ is a golden opportunity for ‘woke’ nationalists with the skill to seize it.

    33. ScotsRenewables says:

      Best thing that could happen now is EU elections. Scotland elects only Pro-Europe pro-indy candidates, thst`s our referendum done and dusted and we withdraw from the Act of Union.

    34. Tackety Betts says:

      John Jones @ 10.50

      They have a trade deal sorted with the Faroes ……… That should help? PMSL

      This post shows Best Value for my donation. Thank you Rev ……..see you next Sunday ?

    35. Effijy says:

      The Tories are masters of hiding facts they don’t like,
      Paying for polls that can come up with the statistics they want,
      Distort the facts or take them out of context.

      I used to think a Con was any confidence trickster but it seems the CONservative
      Party should be the dictionary example of a Con.

      Recognise that Scottish voters have never given the Tories a majority at
      Any time in my life and I’m of pensionable age. 60 odd years on No Tory rule required.

      Remember they won Indy ref 1 with the lie that only a No vote
      Could keep Scotland in the EU.

      62 % of Scots made it clear we want to stay in the EU in the Brexit vote!

      The Scottish Parliament already has a mandate for Indy ref 2
      Via a democratic Scottish vote.

      So where do the Tories get off suggesting they want to present Scottish opinion
      to the Scottish Parliament?

      They work only by corruption on behalf of the wealthy who control Westminster.
      They are paid to plague Scotland with the propaganda that keeps Scotland’s resources
      In Westminsters pocket.

    36. Robin says:

      Absolutely brilliant!!!

      These Tory clowns will never learn

    37. Ken500 says:

      Robert Goodwill Tory MP Agriculture, Fisheries and Food visits Peterhead Fish Market at the invitation of Banff and Buchan Conservative MP David Duguid.

      Robert Goodwill the MP who refused an Inquiry into the Helicopter disaster 2009. Helped a cover up despite the UK Gov Transport Committee.Louise ? calling for an Inquiry. People died because UK Gov Health and Safety rules/Law were not adhered to. Requiring written report not unrecorded telephone messages. In which case the helicopter with fatigue would have been grounded as subsequently happened to the fleet.

      Robert Goodwill and the CAA, headed by a helicopter former pilot, helped the cover up. The Helicopter owners (Bond) sold up for £125Million? A Sherrif Investigation in Scotland found the terms of the incident but with any malpractice exempt from retribution. In order to find out the reasons for the crash. Helicopters falling from the sky. UK Gov Health & Safety Laws totally broken without culpability or recompense.

      The Fishing industry totally mismanaged by UK Gov for years. Dead fish being thrown back for years. Discards depleting the stock. Instead of using better methods and bigger nets. Like Norway. The SNP Scottish Gov were bring in changes finally getting some representation. Instead of a Tory from the Home Counties. Improved methods were being introduced with consultation, helped by Richard Lochhead MSP. Quotas were being increased as a result.

      Some fisherfolk decided to vote Tory and for Brexit. That has not gone very well. EU markets are the destination for the catch for higher premium prices. A lot of stock which required speedy transportation without any delay or the merchandise is destroyed. The migrant workforce is also important for the industry.

    38. Sarah says:

      Thank you again, Rev. How you keep tabs on these multifarious misdeeds of the Conservatives [and the rest] I don’t know but it is a great comfort to me that you can and do.

    39. Effijy says:

      If we look at the Scottish proportion of the 6.1 Million signatures
      On the Stop Article 50 petition, I’ll bet my life on it that the numbers
      Are 10 fold the numbers the Tories have gathered over many years.

      As their partners in Crime Cambridge Anylitics were around when they
      Started and with plenty of Dark Money around I’m sure the numbers
      Generated are every bit as corrupt as the people behind them.

    40. Robert Peffers says:

      @Marcia says: 7 April, 2019 at 10:55 am:

      ” … They got caught and they don’t like it.”

      indeed so, Marcia, and what I’m pointing out is they are also being caught out in the HOC chamber just about every time a Scottish MP gets up to speak.

      There have been countless examples of claims that Scotland will not be dragged from the EU against her will, (note not dragged out so must be remaining in), That the Scots people are sovereign and Westminster is not, (note this has been confirmed by Westminster).

      Where then is the problem?

      The Westminster contingent must know something we do not and Westminster has not denied any of their claims. The SNP MPs have been very specific and Westminster has not denied the claims.

      Ian Blackford and the rest of the contingent are not asking Westminster they are telling them and they are not being contradicted.

      I don’t read newspapers or watch TV – I watch parliaments and the vibes I’m getting is that there is suddenly going to be a move and it won’t need a referendum.

      With the things the SNP contingent are claiming in Westminster the unionist cabal, in a solid phalanx, would normally be on their feet clamouring to speak and when selected tearing the SNP to shreds every time the SNP made any such claim. They always have in the past but now – nothing.

      How can an SNP MP stand up in Parliament and TELL the house that the Scots will not be getting dragged out of the EU without a single unionist disputing the point?

      How can an SNP MP tell the house that the Scots people are sovereign and not a single unionist disputes it – even if Westminster has already agreed officially that is the true fact?

      Under normal conditions the unionists would be queuing up to tear them to shreds – but not a single peep.

      It really is eerie – like being in another dimension but there’s no eerie music or spinning graphics like in the Twilight Zone.

    41. defo says:

      More low level nit picking. 😉

      Dugdale must be loupin’

    42. Welsh Sion says:

      Handandshrimp @ 9.58 am

      Given 60,000 or so people die every year in Scotland a six year petition (especially a Tory one) is likely to be as representative of the wishes of the deceased as the living and probably not much use as a data mining exercise.

      _______

      Aye. But don’t forget (as if you would) the 1979 Referendum when the dead were counted against you in Scotland in the vote for an Assembly.

      Small voice from the back: But that was Labour … Not the Tories.
      Scotland: Aye, right.

    43. Dr Jim says:

      All the people who say bad things on the internet are bad says Kezia Dugdale and they’re chipping away at my self esteem

      They should do it in the newspapers, like what she does

      Labour Baroness Hee Haw on Politics Scotland says people shouldn’t be using words like *Betrayal* *Tractor* *Quizlinks* But it’s perfectly OK if the newspapers use those words

      Send the cops round to the loonies by all means but using the same words as newspapers and politicians themselves use is too late to put back in the bottle now, then blame the people for doing it

      BTW I know how to spell I’m dodging the Moderator

    44. Robert Peffers says:

      @Abulhaq says: 7 April, 2019 at 10:58 am:

      … The way should not be obscured by the identitarian ‘metropolitan’ politics that the SNP under the current great leadership has unwisely embraced.”

      So there you go, Wingers, we should now all stop, following that (cough!) “Identitarian”, political leader Nicola Sturgeon and follow instead that far more knowledgeable Wings commenter, “Abulhaq”.

      Aye!
      Richt!

      For those of you who do not find the word Identarian in your dictionary, (and you won’t) here is a Wikipedia definition:-

      “The Identitarian movement or Identitarianism is a European and North American far-right and white nationalist movement that originated in France.”

    45. Breeks says:


      Robert Peffers says:
      7 April, 2019 at 10:55 am

      He not only states several times that Scotland will not be dragged out of the EU but states that the People of Scotland, NOT WESTMINSER are sovereign but also that Westminster has already agreed they are. He is not contradicted.

      Yes Robert, and it’s music to my ears. But music tames the savage beast.

      In terms of practical delivery, where do we stand if the European Council says No on Wednesday to any more time, and a No Deal Brexit for the UK occurs on Friday?

      What happens in those two days? What is practicable in those two days? If dissolution of the Union is required to take place in those two days, (and that’s implicit in what Ian Blackford is saying), then what level of preparedness is there? What manifestation of political control being removed from Westminster and returned to Scotland can we expect to see?

      I could spell out what I would like to see, but frankly, I am worried sick at the likely consequences of a “cold turkey” fait a compli Sovereign Independence being presented to Scotland’s Unionist community on Saturday morning. Who in his right mind wouldn’t be?

      You criticise me all the time for jumping the gun and “blowing the gaff” on top secret SNP strategy, but I would NOT have brought us to this stage of shift in the Constitutional techtonic plates without first ensuring both sides for and against Scottish Independence were fully and exhaustively prepared for these possible eventualities. Every man and his dog, even the fleas on his dog would know the Constitutional ramifications of sovereignty.

      However, despite what I have just said, I feel no sense whatsoever that Scotland is a pressure cooker about to blow, because the fires of Indy revolution have not been attended to by either side, and instead of decisive conflagration we have smouldering embers of surreal confusion and uncertainty. But all of that might change very quickly.

      I feel another Lord of the Rings moment is upon us. Put the searchlight and dry ice in the doorway behind us and wistfully ask ourselves “how did it come to this?”

      How did it come to this? That’s easy. The words in Ian Blackfords mouth are not the same words as in Nicola’s head.

    46. Capella says:

      We said REMAIN and we meant it.

    47. Dr Jim says:

      @Robert Peffers 11:52am

      They enjoy doing that sort of thing though Robert, take the word National, used all over the world for your country’s football team your swimming teams, indeed even your country’s lotteries but when it comes to the SNP it definitely means the big bad *N* word, no question

      The perversion of words to make them sound like they mean what they say they mean is more to do with the perversion of the user’s mind to think it up in the first place

      It would never have mattered what the SNP had ever named the party, the opposition would have perverted the name or a word in the name to mean what it was never intended to convey

      I have to say I had not come across this latest offering of word nonsense until now and I doubt it will catch on

    48. mike cassidy says:

      Its a Sunday.

      So cheer yourself up with the btls on this very rightwing site.

      (direct link as it wouldn’t archive)

      https://order-order.com/2019/04/07/mogg-boris-unite-tory-party/#disqus_thread

      My favourite was one describing the tory party as May’s communist party.

      Good to see the world through other eyes!

      And I’d forgotten about England’s local elections on 3 May.

      The remergence of UKIP is the hope of some of the gammons commenting.

    49. Kangaroo says:

      @Robert Peffers
      @Breeks

      You are both correct in your own ways and I have a deal of sympathy for both streams of information you lay down. They are very reasonable. Just throwing in a curve ball for you to muse over.

      What happens if the UK leaves the EU shortly and Scotland simply either
      a) reapplies for membership in its own right, or
      b) the EU agrees that Scotland is its own interlocutor and cannot be removed without the agreement of Sovereign Scots

      So we would be in both Unions and both referendums would be honoured. The EU would of course insist on border controls between Scotland and England, just as they need them on the Northern Irish border. The BoE have already agreed that the Currency could be the Pound, so that’s not an issue.

    50. Capella says:

      @ mike cassidy – That right wing blog is the 3rd top political blog in the UK. Good to see the Tories talking among themselves with no of sense reality intruding.
      Scottish branch ditto.

    51. Geoff says:

      A small observation: There are no links from the Scottish Tory website (scottishconservatives.com) to that petition. Indeed the petition is not actually on the Scottish Tory website at all; it is on the UK Tory website (conservatives.com), but again with no obvious links to it from the home page. So who is really promoting the petition?

    52. galamcennalath says:

      ScotsRenewables says:

      Best thing that could happen now is EU elections. Scotland elects only Pro-Europe pro-indy candidates

      It’s a PR election with Scotland one constituency returning six MEPs.

      In 2014 the results were..

      SNP 2
      Labour 2
      Cons 1
      UKIP 1

      That UKIP win was an utter disgrace driven by media wall to wall coverage of UKIP aka the English Nationalist Party.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland_(European_Parliament_constituency)#2014

      What is interesting is that the Greens weren’t too far behind UKIP.

      2019?

      Labour won’t get 2 seats again.

      The SNP are unlikely to get 3 seats on PR. If they and Greens stood on an Indy ticket and mobilised the YES movement then either SNP or the Greens could pick up a seat. That would be three out of six. I would consider that success.

      The Tories will be out to get two seats. If the BBC et al push a Farangeist party, then in the current circumstances either UKIP or lookalike will win a seat. Sad. The important thing is, it must not be at the expense of the Indy movement’s seats. Ideally, they will deny the Tories a second seat.

    53. Robert Peffers says:

      @Breeks says: 7 April, 2019 at 11:56 am:

      ” … The words in Ian Blackfords mouth are not the same words as in Nicola’s head.”

      Oh! Please accept my sincere apology, Breeks. My criticism of you was based upon my being unaware that you were privy to the contents of what is inside Nicola’s head.

      As an aside just yesterday I came across a video clip on YouTube. It showed an interview conducted by a well respected publication with Nicola Sturgeon. It was from several years ago so I did not, then, believe it to be relevant. However, Nicola stated almost word for word her standpoint upon Scottish independence that she holds today.

      That is the people of Scotland are legally sovereign and, when all else is said and done, means they have the sovereign right to end any international treaty that has been entered into for any reason and whenever the want to.

      Incidentally there has been excellent verification of that very principle in the past few weeks stemming from members of the current Westminster cabinet why have claimed that any sovereign government has that right to end any international treaties at any time.

      Of course they were speaking about the Westminster Government’s right to end the treaty the United Kingdom made with the EU and not the treaty the Kingdom of Scotland agreed with the Kingdom of England in 1706/7.

      In fact at least one of them actually quoted clauses from international Law to that effect to support his views, including if memory serves, The Geneva Convention.

      So there you go – not only has Westminster agreed with the Scottish Claim of Right, (Scottish Sovereignty), but have stated that a sovereign people have legal right to end any treaty when they want to.

      They really haven’t got a leg to stand on when Scotland just tells them the Union is over. They have already conceded that Scotland has every right to do so?

      Just what can Westminster do about it? The answer is legally they cannot for when the union ends so does the union parliament and there has been no elected as such Parliament of England since the last parliament of England sat and placed itself into permanent recession from last day of April 1707. There is currently no legally elected parliament of England.

      Westminster is the United Kingdom Parliament and must thus speak for both kingdoms equally. It cannot do other than declare it has conflicting interests. It simply is not the actual parliament of England.

      However, as you claim to know the contents of Nicola’s mind, I must concede you must know best.

    54. Marcia says:

      galamcennalath

      Re the Euro elections.

      As it is not true PR but the d’hondt system for electing MEP’s, there would have to be a vote management system in place as you only have one vote and not a STV vote. The Greens would have to be strong enough to get over the line maybe about 10%.

    55. Cactus says:

      SO the minds of Conservative Party politicians are locked shut…

      This video may present an appropriate analogy of such

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_mmvxPUnaI

    56. CameronB Brodie says:

      The academics who support Scotland In Union, are supporting a political position that opposes Natural Law. They are supporting colonial imperialism. Subsequently, from a post-colonial perspective, they could easily be considered scholastic charlatans.

      The morality of sovereignty can be found in the logic of international relation.

      Postcolonialism in International Relations
      http://oxfordre.com/internationalstudies/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780190846626.001.0001/acrefore-9780190846626-e-101

    57. johnj says:

      “Minds locked shut”

      You’re using the word ‘Minds’ rather loosely there Stu.

    58. galamcennalath says:

      Marcia says:

      not true PR but the d’hondt system

      D’hondt is a PR system and is widely used. It gets bad press in Scotland because of the way it is mixed with FPTP and ends up allowing numpties to be elected. Also I believe the system was designed to have two votes to cause confusion and encourage people to vote as if were first and second choice. Thus, further reducing the SNP’s potential.

      If elections with multi candidate constituencies and lists only, it works because parties make sure their best people are at the top of lists.

      STV would be another system, but seems less common in Europe. It still needs multi seat constituencies to work. Scotland’s council seats are too small for it to work well. It fails to be proportional with few seats.

      Either system does deliver close to proportionality, when deployed properly.

      This lists why does what.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_electoral_systems_by_country

      Lists appear the most common PR system. Divvy out the seats is usually by D’hondt or Sainte-Laguë.

      I think the most important thing for iScotland is we have the same voting system in every election – councils, Holyrood, and EU. It MUST be as close to PR as possible. And most importantly, voters need to understand it! I’d be comfortable with straight forward list and d’hondt OR STV

    59. CameronB Brodie says:

      British nationalism really is the preserve of the “old fashioned” personality. Religious bigots, chauvinistic gammons or far-right zoomers, most of them.

      Feeling Romantic-Thinking Postmodern: Notes on Postcolonial Identity

      Genuine and thorough comprehension of Otherness is possible only if the self can somehow negate or at least severely bracket the values, assumptions, and ideology of his culture. As Nadine Gordimer’s and Isak Dinesen’s writings show, however, this entails in practice the virtually impossible task of negating one’s very being, precisely because one’s culture is what formed that being. (JanMohamed 1988: 84)

      https://quod.lib.umich.edu/p/postid/pid9999.0002.202/–feeling-romanticthinking-postmodern-notes-on-postcolonial?rgn=main;view=fulltext

    60. Robert Peffers says:

      @Kangaroo says:7 April, 2019 at 12:35 pm:

      ” … You are both correct in your own ways and I have a deal of sympathy for both streams of information you lay down. They are very reasonable. Just throwing in a curve ball for you to muse over.”

      Well that’s wrong for a start, Kangaroo but let’s try to answer what I can.

      ” … What happens if the UK leaves the EU shortly and Scotland simply either …

      ” … a) reapplies for membership in its own right.

      Well, first of all you’re off on an unknown trail as we do not know how the EU will react. First of all you are labouring under a misunderstanding. Westminster IS NOT the Kingdom of England Parliament – it is the United Kingdom Parliament so it cannot legally act for England and against Scotland.

      However, Holyrood is the reconvened old parliament of Scotland and legally speaks only for Scotland. There is no legal Parliament of England. Secondly the EU could simply rule that as the United Kingdom is a two party union of parliaments and Scots voted to remain, (in a referendum), that Scotland can remain as the legacy member state while England, (the kingdom), voted to leave and they can have their wish.

      b) the EU agrees that Scotland is its own interlocutor and cannot be removed without the agreement of Sovereign Scots
      So we would be in both Unions and both referendums would be honoured.

      Not if Holyrood had said the union is over first. See above.

      ” … The EU would of course insist on border controls between Scotland and England, just as they need them on the Northern Irish border.”

      Correct.

      ” … The BoE have already agreed that the Currency could be the Pound, so that’s not an issue.”

      Better than that – in 1946 the United Kingdom, (not England), nationalised what was then still a private company that thus belonged to the shareholders – not to England.

      So The BofE has never belonged to England. It belongs to both Kingdoms and the concept of shares on current population ratios is totally a Westminster false claim. The share must thus be negotiated.

      Get the right picture now?

      So much brainwashed concepts in this matter.

      I’ll say it again :-

      Westminster is not the parliament of England it is that of the United Kingdom and there is no elected as such parliament of England to negotiate with. Westminster, in a court of law, must either represent equally both partner kingdoms or none. England has no one legally to represent them than the Queen of England and she is also Queen of Scots and also must represent both Kingdoms. no one can legally represent England unless they hold an election but who is legally to do so?

      So there you go – Scotland holds all the cards even if the EU doesn’t recognise them as a continued legacy member state. Furthermore the propaganda that there is a queue of countries waiting to become members is rubbish. There is, and never ever has been a queue. he delay is simply that the waiting would be member state does not comply with the EU conditions of membership and Scotland has qualified on all EU conditions as Scotland has been a member state since before the EU became the EU. All that is needed is for the EU to say, You’re in Scotland we kept the light on for you asked for.

      These are all facts, Kangaroo, and I’ve been spouting them for years.

      For goodness sake, how many times have I pulled people up for commenting about there going to be an rUnited Kingdom?

      here simple can be no such thing. What joined Scotland in 1706/7 was not the United Kingdom of England. You can see what it was on the Treaty of Union. It was the three country of Kingdom of England. So when the union ends what is left is the three country Kingdom of England. The only difference is that part of the country of Ireland has been politically partitioned but it is still the partitioned country of Ireland with every chance of it reuniting.

      Which partitioning, by the way, was by way of an international treaty and the current Westminster cabinet has several times said that any members of an international treaty have legal right to end it.

    61. Arbroath1320 says:

      Just a wee oblique idea from outside my wee skew wiff box here.

      Just recently a petition was closed and put forward to the House of Commons Petitions committee and for those who have not already read their response I place it and Gordon Ross’s thoughts about this response here.

      https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/251264

      youtube.com/watch?v=wvpbDRCqZiM&feature=youtu.be

      As Scotland voted 62% to REMAIN in the UK perhaps the Scottish government should consider this “advice” rip up the Treaty of Union and hold E.U. elections irrespective of what Feartie eventually decides to do. If they did that I wonder if the Tories would present this FOUR year old petition to Holyrood now or still wait for 2021 before handing in this corrupt and toxic petition?

    62. uno mas says:

      AS today´s date is an odd number Kevin Mckennea has decided he´s a unionist again and his contibution to today´s Guardian is an all out attack on the administrative record of the Scottish Government.

      No below the line comments eh Kevin?

      Wanker.

    63. Arbroath1320 says:

      Damn …screwed up that link … didn’t I!

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvpbDRCqZiM&feature=youtu.be

    64. CameronB Brodie says:

      British nationalism is so 19th century and is perfectly suited to a chauvinistic personality with limited capacity for moral and empathic cognition.

      The Psychology of Colonialism and Postcolonialism: Cognitive Approaches to Identity and Empathy

      Abstract and Keywords

      This chapter begins by outlining Frederick Aldama’s cognitive and Marxist critique of mainstream postcolonial theory. From here, it turns to a consideration of identity, comparing and contrasting Patrick Hogan’s cognitive and social psychological analyses with the psychoanalytic approaches of Homi Bhabha and Judith Butler.

      It goes on to consider colonialism and racism, exploring cognitive modeling or conceptual metaphor as a way of expanding and systematizing some insights of the postcolonial theorist, Ashis Nandy. The chapter concludes with an examination of Suzanne Keen’s ideas on empathy in relation to colonialism. The theoretical analyses are illustrated by brief applications to a story by Rabindranath Tagore, a film by Mani Ratnam, and a novel by Kamala Markandaya.

      http://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10.1093/oxfordhb/9780199978069.001.0001/oxfordhb-9780199978069-e-17

    65. Breeks says:

      Well Robert Peffers, that’s a very long winded way to deflect and avoid answering the question.

      But then I’m not SNP and don’t have security clearance, so what right have I to expect an answer eh?

    66. Dorothy Devine says:

      OT actually from the Chris Cairns page Capella,thank you for that , haven’t been in Aberdeen for years now but I remember the magazine.

      I like the lion photo very much but cannot comment on the once lovely square at Marischal College.

      Only my sister in law left in Aberdeen and we usually meet in Perth so I haven’t seen the devastation wreaked by the council.

    67. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Well done sir.

      The Tories would be funny if you could disregard the death and misery they have unnecessary caused.

      Add in the gross incompetence, not so funny.

    68. Robert Peffers says:

      @Arbroath1320 says: 7 April, 2019 at 1:53 pm:

      ” … Damn …screwed up that link … didn’t I!”

      Aye! Arbroath1320, and what has what I have been telling Wingers for years.

      Westminster IS NOT the Parliament of either the Kingdom or country of England it has legally been since 1 May 1707 the parliament of the United Kingdom.

      It thus is supposed to legally represent both kingdoms of the United Kingdom and dividing the two partner United Kingdom up as four countries of which three of them comprise the Kingdom of England is illegal in itself but to then NOT devolve powers to the country of England thus puts the country of England as the master country with the only Kingdom of England partner Kingdom of Scotland treated like a dominion of the country of England like Wales and N.I. is even more illegal.

      So the legal situation in regards to sovereignty is this:-

      Westminster is not legally the parliament of the country or the kingdom of England it is the parliament of the two Partner United Kingdom and there is no legal parliament of England.

      The Queen of England is legally sovereign in the Kingdom of England’s three countries but there is no legal parliament of England. So Westminster has no legal sovereignty over Scotland.

      The Queen of Scots is not sovereign as the people of Scotland are legally sovereign but only over Scotland and not over the United Kingdom.

      If the people of Scotland say the Union is over then it is over.

      Westminster, however, is not legally sovereign over Scotland, (because the people of Scotland are0, and Westminster is the Parliament of both Kingdoms but not the Parliament of the Country of England and the Queen of England has to legally delegate her sovereignty to the Parliament of England but there has been no parliament of the country of England since 1707.

      Got it now?

      Westminster has to legally speak for both Kingdoms but cannot legally speak for the country of England alone because the Queen of England has to legally delegate her powers to the parliament of the country of England that has not existed since 1707.

      The people of Scotland are legally sovereign over Scotland but not over the Kingdom of England nor the country of England.

      So the only country/kingdom in the United Kingdom that has the legal power to declare the United Kingdom over is the Kingdom of Scotland but only if the majority of the people of Scotland mandate the parliament, or even a Scottish political party, to declare the Union is over.

      That’s it – only a proven majority of the people of Scotland can end the United Kingdom and when they do there cannot be any form of rUnited Kingdom as the Status Quo Ante is a return to what it was before the treaty was signed.

      That return is to the Kingdom of Scotland and the three country Kingdom of England.

      What the three country Kingdom of England decides to do after that is none of Scotland’s business but it cannot claim to be an rUnited Kingdom as it is composed of only one Kingdom.

      So there you go – I’ve been telling Wingers that for years and to anyone who would listen since I was 10 or eleven years old. I got all that taught to me by a semi-retired old King’s Council , believe it or not, sitting in Greyfrier’s Churchyard in the mid to late 1940s.

      It sure as hell is not a new concept.

    69. Inverclyder says:

      In Ruth “No Indyref2 friends of the OO and pure totally loyal loyalists to big Arlene and the duped party” Davidsons Scotland nobody would be allowed to change their mind.

    70. Robert Peffers says:

      @Breeks says: 7 April, 2019 at 2:16 pm:

      ” … Well Robert Peffers, that’s a very long winded way to deflect and avoid answering the question.”

      Rubbish! I’m deflecting nothing. I’m telling exactly the same thing I’ve been telling since ever I began to post on Wings. What is more I’m opposing you for exactly the same thing I’ve always opposed you.

      ” … But then I’m not SNP and don’t have security clearance”

      Now there is deflection for neither have I had security clearance and i very much doubt such a thing actually exists.

      Nor is it, and never has been the point. What is the point is that certain people would have us believe they are better qualified than the FM/SG/SNP and who do not just attempt to put forward their opinions as only their opinions but to pontificate as if they are far more clever, aware and up to date than the party that has brought Scotland to the position Scotland occupies today.

      You and your cohorts not only just express the impatience we all mostly share but you by far exceed that impatience. Your gambit is, and not just in the short term, is that the FM/SG/SNP are doing everything wrong.

      ” … so what right have I to expect an answer eh”

      You have no right to demand answers from anyone. You are increasingly looking more and more like the enemy than the front-line defence.

      Hardly a day passes that you are not there claiming you know best and the FM/SG/SNP are BAAAD! and doing everything wrong just because you say so.

      Now who is it that says they hold the power to devolve English powers to Scotland – because they say so?

      Who is it threatening to remove powers from Scotland – because they say so?

      Who threatens to impose direct rule upon Scotland because they say so?

      Who says they will take Scotland out of the EU against the people of Scotland’s wishes? just because they say so?

      Oh! That’ll be Westminster and the Unionists.

      Like you and a few other anti-FM/SG/SNP that’ll be Westminster.

    71. Terence callachan says:

      The thing we all have to remember is that we are aiming for the same thing, Scottish independence.
      Impatience is noticeable amongst some Scottish independence supporters who are becoming increasingly critical of the SNP, it’s understandable however.
      You have to trust your leaders especially when up against a war machine like Westminster that can get so many institutions to do as they say.
      I am eager for action I want a Scottish independence referendum now but I do realise that others have information and expertise way beyond my judgement so I continually remind myself and others that it’s important to patient and trust in the leaders of the Scottish independence movement which undoubtedly is the SNP.
      Be strong, hold firm ,hold together ,don’t let yourself be drawn into arguing and criticising people who are on our side.
      We need togetherness more than ever.

    72. stu mac says:

      @ uno mas says:
      =======

      TBF it is pretty much standard Guardian policy not to have BTL comments except on the most inconsequential articles.

    73. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      galamcennalath @ 12:55,

      You are perhaps forgetting that the turnout last time was very poor, which allowed the zealots to have more than proportional influence. While Leavers typically bemoan an “undemocratic EU” of their own invention, alas too many have contributed to the situation by not just taking a few minutes of their precious time to register their vote, and thereby allowing idiots like Coburn to prosper.

      One might hope that on this upcoming occasion, if it happens, people might be rather more aware of the very real consequences of their vote, and thereby register a substantial protest from which the SNP, if they play their cards right, could benefit substantially, especially given Labour’s weak-kneed attitude to Brexit. The riven Tories could also take a hit, but from whom isn’t so clear.

    74. Dorothy Devine says:

      Capella , I’m sure I wrote leopard but the other computer obviously though I had misspelt and changed it to lion.

    75. Robert Peffers says:

      For those who claim Nicola has changed her tune and become too comfortable to bother fighting for independence here is a clip from an Economist interview published on 7 Apr 2015:-

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDmSn5jQGbQ&t=37s

      Nicola hasn’t changed her tune one bit.

    76. Robert Peffers says:

      There is also other considerations. It is not in Scotland’s best interests to have a basket case economy as our next door neighbour and a hard customs border with it.

      Not to mention that our fellow EU countries in the British Isles, The Republic of Ireland and the three Crown Dependencies would also by disadvantaged. Wales and Northern Ireland would also be hard borders and why would we wish to be hard on them?

      After all #The DUP are not representative of Northern Ireland and Wales is not the enemy any more than are the normal people of England.

      The enemy is the Westminster Unionists and I’ve little doubt that a spell under the inevitable BRUKEXIT conditions would see many in England a great deal more inclined to favour Scotland when they realise the bare face lies they have been fed by Westminster all their lives.

    77. John from Fife says:

      I am a bit concerned that this push for a second EU referendum has a very good chance of going ahead now and will stop Brexit and more importantly support for our second referendum. It doesn’t seem to be a good idea to support the second EU referendum from a Scottish point of view.

    78. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Nah, John from Fife.

      Let them get on with their clusterbourarch. Time will tell.

    79. yesindyref2 says:

      As I understand it (as my micro-entity data compliance officer), if any potential breach of data regulations is brought to your atttention you are expected to check it out, take action if neccessary to stop it happening in future, and to mitigate it, including preventing any consequences for anyone whose personal data has been or potentially could be, compromised.

      If there is any offence has been committed that doesn’t remove the offence, but mitigates it if you’ve taken action to prevent or control the breach. Prosecution isn’t inevitable, it’s a judgement call I guess.

      Hence the actions of the compliance officer, they’ve taken action, and would be judged on the thoroughness of it, suitability, and effectiveness of it.

      If I was called to judge on what actions should be taken, this is an old petition, and any personal data that has been collected should be destroyed, and no futher use made for instance, of email addresses or addresses. I’d also want to know if uses of the data had happened that were not directly connected with the stated purposes – a petition – such as party political ones like leaflets.

      I collect data and state specifically that it is only used for the purpose of the order, any third party handling of that order, or any law enforcement agencies.

    80. Gary says:

      It’s an excellent point. It is petitions like this to which politicians refer when they say that support for indy is falling or is below X%.

      They are perfectly correct when they quote these figures, of course. They are correct because a wonk will provide them to said politician without letting them know HOW the figures were obtained, thereby ensuring that firstly the politician is NOT lying and secondly has ‘plausible deniability’ when the methodology is exposed.

      What would Sit John Curtice make of this??? Lol!

      This is but ONE example. How many OTHER examples are there of political parties gathering ‘public opinion’ and quoting in this manner?

      THAT would be interesting. How much of what political parties quote on public opinion is gathered in this way?

      A survey group of exclusively your own supporters and no end date, gathering opinion over YEARS. At what point can this no longer be called a survey of public opinion and has to be called a flat out lie??



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