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Mascot Of The Universe

Posted on September 07, 2017 by

Great news, readers! After years of requests, it’s now finally possible to possess and cherish your very own adorable cuddly toy version of Wings’ symbolic embodiment of benign and welcoming independence, Hamish the lion!

Admittedly you’ll have to buy some slacker’s book of cartoons to get one, but that’s surely a small price to pay.

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    1. 07 09 17 10:57

      Mascot Of The Universe | speymouth

    369 to “Mascot Of The Universe”

    1. Chris Cairns says:

      After all the hype surrounding the soft toy Hamish I’ve told the overseer of the sweatshop in China to cancel the 5min lunch break and keep the 7-year-olds out of bed for another two hours at night so we can meet demand.

      Seriously – it goes without saying I am grateful for the support the Rev and all youse Wingers have given over the years. A wee fluffy lion is the least I can offer in return. Many thanks.

    2. Ghillie says:

      Hamish could be in every child’s stocking this Christmas!

      The limited edition Hamishs will be very special 🙂 but Chris, could we mibee have an affordable soft toy Hamish too please?

    3. Macart says:

      Awesome. 🙂

    4. Get there quick, the fundraiser has smashed the £5K already.
      66% of goal, in a flash.

    5. fionan says:

      Where were these Hamishes made?

      I boycott all goods from China, Thailand, Koreas N&S, where they are importing our ex-racing greyhounds to boil them alive, skin them alive, cut legs off and leave them in agony for days at a time, blowtorch them and other unbelievable atrocities which they perpetrate also on stolen pets to supply their meat trade.

      All because they believe that meat from tortured pets makes them more ‘virile’ – obviously they have no virility to start with! They also use the skins to make ‘fake fur’ which they sell to us.

      So I cant subscribe to anything which allows this horror to continue. So, Chris, if these were made in the sweatshops of the UK, I would be happy to get one.But not if made in China.

    6. Ken500 says:

      Good luck.

      £60 for a Lion?

      ‘National’ good this week. Still can’t get one after noon.

    7. Desimond says:

      Greg
      This is all well and good but I trust it isn’t stopping your work on a Jacob Rees Mogg image!

    8. Desimond says:

      Of course I meant Chris
      I have no idea who Greg is, I blame this sausage roll im eating whilst typing!

      PS – Mind and click PERK folks when donating…

    9. mike cassidy says:

      Could we get Hamish to mate with Jacob Rees Moggie?

      Just so we could call the offspring Moggieunus, Moggieduo …

    10. Marie Clark says:

      mike cassiday @ 11.34. Wash your mouth out with soap mike, what a suggestion. Who would wish that on oor wee hamish. LOL.

    11. Ken500 says:

      Donation to Craig Murray.

      In the category of don’t like the SNP being slagged off, but anything against the Daily Mail.

    12. Ken500 says:

      Alex Rowley is better than Dugdale. He supported Independence and not going in with the Tories. It is unionist (Labour) council who are cutting education and essential services spending. Wasting money on grotesque projects of no value. No one wants. Cutting education spending. Would Mr Rowley have a word with them. The Labour councillors in league with the Tories in Aberdeen City Council. Changing council meeting for two jobs Tories to keep them in power. Thanks.

      Ruth Davidson and May could be the next to go. Duplicity.

      The cut in Defence vessels could an advantage in the long run. Less Defence spending. The Scottish Gov could have more to invest in building vessels on the Clyde. Ferries, supply boats, liners and turbines. They are already investing and in R & D. Swings and roundabouts.

    13. Ken500 says:

      Nicola is brilliant.

    14. Ken500 says:

      The Labour Party did not support minimum pricing in Scotland. All other parties did. It was passed in 2012 and still has to be implemented. Still waiting 2 to 5 months for a final outcome. Bleating hearts in Holyrood have short memories.

    15. Ken500 says:

      FMQ’s been going on for 17 years.

    16. Desimond says:

      @Ken500

      Our old friends at BBC Scotland Nwws had the main rep from Drinks Lobby, ie Ms Diageo, on a few weeks back saying how bad an idea minimum pricing was and how they were pursuing every legal avenue against the Govt despite repeated defeats.

      Shows how much money they must make from the child\alky loved muck.

      Apropos of nothing, Im sure Jackie Baillie still has good contacts for Peroni…

    17. HandandShrimp says:

      The SWA have been used as a fig leaf over minimum pricing.

      Whisky, even the cheapest versions are barely affected by the move and the decent whiskies are so far above the proposed minimum per unit as to be completely untroubled. It is the cheap gut rot and alchopops that the big companies sell that they are worried about not whisky. No one is going to buy lighter fluid when it is the same price as something that is halfway palatable.

    18. Richard MacKinnon says:

      Kitsch, also called cheesiness or tackiness, is art or other objects that appeal to popular or uncultivated taste because they are garish or overly sentimental, which means that these objects are considered by other people to be ugly, without style, false, or in poor taste but enjoyed or appreciated by still other people in an ironic or knowing way or because it is funny. The word was first applied to artwork that was a response to certain divisions of 19th-century art with aesthetics that favored what later art critics would consider to be exaggerated sentimentality and melodrama. Hence, ‘kitsch art’ is closely associated with ‘sentimental art’. Kitsch is also related to the concept of camp, because of its humorous and ironic nature.

    19. HandandShrimp says:

      PS Hamish looks magnificent.

    20. Giving Goose says:

      Send a Hamish to the GMB office on the Clyde.

      It will help them to remember that they have completely and utterly failed to properly represent the best interests of the Clyde shipbuilding workforce.

      What a complete shower of cringing, British Nationalist idiots the GMB are.

      All that their arse kissing antics have achieved is a loss of contracts, job security and a waste of valuable time that could have been used to reconfigure the yards.

      Make no mistake; the propaganda value to the British Nationalists and other Tories of the GMB being against Scottish Independence was immense. The “Frigate factory” promise from London, together with the promise of new orders for English Navy ships for the Clyde was a major factor in scaring Scots away from a Yes vote.

      The GMB should hang their heads in shame. What is more, the Clyde workforce should be calling for the heads of the shop stewards and other GMB representatives who sold them this cock and bull story about English navy ships being built on the Clyde.

      How is it that I, and many, many Scots like me are not in the least bit surprised at the outcome?
      Why is it that the GMB are so blind that they and their fellow cringers cannot see what others can?

      Are they that stupid?

      Cringing, British Nationalist, Uncle Tam, poodles the lot of them.

      On second thoughts, Hamish is to good to grace their offices.

    21. Marie Clark says:

      Aye Giving Goose, it was a shame that nobody warned these folk what would happen eh!.

      Not a lot of sympathy from this me, there is none so blind etc.

    22. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Prospective BLiS Leader Richard Leonard was a big “Vote no to Scottish Independence
      Or the Ship Yards will shut” in his role with The GMB @Giving Goose says at 1:48pm.

    23. Uilleam_beag says:

      Fantastic to see this is just one furry Hamish away from the funding goal already — £7,940 of £8k raised and 21 days to go. I’d love to snap up the last one but not got the cash at the moment. Congratulations to whoever gets it.

    24. Valerie says:

      Well said @ Giving Goose.

      No Indy supporters are the least bit surprised at this outcome.

      I hope the shop floor at these yards direct their anger in the proper direction.

      Quick glance at HoC, for first bit of debate on EU (withdrawal) Bill. Lots of empty green benches.

      Peter Grant did say Scotland’s sovereignty is not for sale.

      Usual Tory filibustering Arseholes like IDS going to bore us to death.

    25. Famous15 says:

      Target reached! Great believer I am that humour is the best attack form give to the Unionist to piss out take them from.

      Starting with wee Mindell on GMS and increasingly throughout the day it is impossible to satarise these clowns,but we will try.

    26. Chris Cairns says:

      Target reached inside 24hrs! You guys are the best 🙂

      Remember, though, we’ve still got plenty of those perks to give away with early purchases so any and all orders still gratefully received. I’ll let you know when we’re danger of running out of Hamishes!

      Thanks again.

    27. crazycat says:

      @ Valerie

      I hope the shop floor at these yards direct their anger in the proper direction.

      In the Herald article about this, one pipe fitter said that if we had “gotten independence” there would have been no work at all so Nicola Sturgeon was being hypocritical!

      Another worker said it was nice that the other yards “in the UK” might get some contracts, otherwise they would shut.

      I’m sure the Herald chose its interviewees carefully, but there may not be as much anger as you and I think there should be.

    28. Robert Peffers says:

      @Giving Goose says: 7 September, 2017 at 1:48 pm:

      “Why is it that the GMB are so blind that they and their fellow cringers cannot see what others can?
      Are they that stupid?”

      YES!

      If they quack talk stupid and they waddle walk stupid then, in all probability, they are indeed stupid – or is that just the ducks that are stupid?

    29. Golfnut says:

      @ crazy cat,

      Interesting comments ‘ not building any ships at all ‘ after Independence. A clear indicator of how effective the media, unions and politicians have been in closing down or rubbishing the maritime (SDF) requirements for an Independent Scotland.

      We actually need to start ‘ now ‘ discussing maritime defence, Frigates, OPVs, inshore, coastgaurd, Patrol aircraft etc, instead of this continual merry go round of waiting for Westminsters scraps.

    30. Street Andrew says:

      I think it was off topic, but someone discussing Minimum pricing for alcohol.

      Who gets the extra profit?

      What I’d like to see is pubs able to compete with supermarket pricing. Obviously you still pay extra for service and ambience and all that, but pub prices are ludicrous and so much of it is tax. Craft beers on draught need a swingeing reduction in tax/duty.

      Suits the governing class to prevent people being able to meet up and ‘plot’ over a drink or two.

    31. Graeme says:

      it’s always easier to fool people than convince them they’ve been fooled even when it’s obvious,

      o these No voting shipyard workers/shop/steward etc will find a way to blame someone else rather than admit to their own stupidity, and those who fooled them will gat away with, that’s just how it works in Scotland

    32. heedtracker says:

      Suits the governing class to prevent people being able to meet up and ‘plot’ over a drink or two.

      Haha!

      Its the smoking ban that’s closing boozers down.

    33. manandboy says:

      On the GMB website, the Union’s logo includes the title ‘experts in the world of work’.

      Seems like more than the Tories are heavy into nostalgia – as well as self awareness with eyes tight shut.

      The GMB – the Union for dinosaurs.

    34. geeo says:

      Ah…the GMB union…a shadow of its former self.

      Full of employer sympathisers out to shaft it’s membership in the workplace for ‘grace and favour’ with them (employer).

      I took them (GMB) to court a few years back after their rep tried to shaft me.

      Not before i took my employer for 6 figures, mind you.

      Handy 5 figure sum from GMB as well.

      Went into my local branch and burned a membership renewal letter they sent out AFTER settling with me…!!

      Not worth 2 fucks.

    35. cearc says:

      So sad that Hamish isn’t being sold seperately. £60 is way out of range at the moment.

      I started to make one in early ’14 for my then expectant grandson but my arthritic fingers were just not up to fiddly little creatures.

    36. manandboy says:

      Graeme says:
      “it’s always easier to fool people than convince them they’ve been fooled even when it’s obvious,”

      I’m sure shipyard workers are no different from anyone else and will include among their numbers the same proportion of the foolish, the gullible and the naive as exists in the general population. Not to mention the brainwashed ‘I’m British’ contingent.
      In addition, on the Clyde there will be the Ibrox factor which, though not in the realm of 100% as in Harland & Wolff in Belfast, will nevertheless be a consideration when assessing the way the men on the Clyde yards might vote.

      I might add that gullibility and naivety do appear to be lifelong conditions, as well as being widespread in Scotland.
      Or perhaps I’m the only one left. Haha.

      One thing’s for sure, the BritNats are going all out to reach their target audience ie. those who can be fooled all the time.

    37. Proud Cybernat says:

      Shipbuilders – read it and weep…

      https://imgur.com/a/zqbfq

    38. Greg Moodie says:

      Folks, please remember if you’re still planning on contributing, select the perk you want rather than the ‘Back It’ button at the top. It’s not clear and I’ve alerted Indiegogo to the problem. If you don’t choose a perk, we don’t get a note of where to send your goodies.

    39. Sarah says:

      @cearc 3.34: I would buy a pride of Hamishes for all young relatives [and me!]. I’m sure Chris will be sorting this out for us…

    40. Petra says:

      @ Chris Cairns says at 2:36 pm

      ”Target reached inside 24hrs! You guys are the best.”

      No you’re the best political cartoonist in the UK (and beyond) Chris and definitely deserve our support X

      ……………………………………

      Does anyone else remember soldiers giving a Nazi salute in Scotland? At a football match?

      ‘Serving soldiers arrested over suspected links to banned neo-Nazi group National Action.’

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/15516787.Serving_soldiers_arrested_over_suspected_links_to_banned_neo_Nazi_group_National_Action/

    41. Brian Powell says:

      Greg Moodie

      I went for the whole package does that mean I now won’t get anything?

    42. Ken500 says:

      Pub/bars make no profit on booze alone. It is the meals that make the profit. Less folk are drinking out. Taking health warnings. Scotland still drinks too much. Most competent Gov take steps to control it. Scotland can’t tax it. Minimum pricing was a solution. Labour voted against. All other Parties – Scottish Gov voted for it in 2012. Still two to five months before a final outcome. Minimum pricing could save public money. Smoking ban. Smoking has gone down. Now 20%? Chest infections in children has fallen. Many other health benefits.

      Too many drink/drug services advocate ‘sensible’ or drinking wine with a meal. For people with addiction problems. Enough is never enough. ‘One chance’ total abstinence rehab/counselling is the best outcome. The Gov should only fund these advocates. Medical professionals can receive no training in drink/drug problems, unless they specialise. Wrong advice can kill people. Councils now are responsible for social care. Many advocate methodone programmes, it is cheaper but not most affective. Instead of proper total abstinence counselling/rehab. Cheaper than prison. Crime is connected to gender and drink/drug addiction. It can result in poverty. There are supportive groups which can be contacted.

    43. manandboy says:

      Meanwhile on the Westminster stage, Theresa May continues to perform her ‘escape artist’ routine in which she gets herself tied in knots and is then put into a box from which it is impossible to get out.

      Nicola seems to have May’s act all figured out. It only remains for her critics to catch on.

      Ps. Yes, guilty, I have been one myself, for a short while after GE17.

    44. Valerie says:

      @ geeo

      Good for you standing up to GMB, and winning.

      I am one of those people lucky enough to have been involved in a good Union branch, led by a man of real principle and common sense. Very intelligent guy. I was a lowly helper, but I was close by helping him with the donkey work.

      I think it was only years later, I realised how much I learned.

      It’s criminal the way Trade Unions have been run down, or used by liggers.

    45. Dr Jim says:

      It’s impossible to have a democracy using uneven numbers
      the bigger gang always wins, always, every single time!
      The best most skillful fiercest featherweight in the world will lose every time to a big stupid dumb slow heavyweight

      The Inglish Parliament designed their politics in this way
      You don’t have to agree with Sinn Fein’s politics to know that they’re right about that

      The UK has four parliaments, one in each country, three out of the four countries didn’t vote for the Conservative party to run or control their affairs yet they do just that
      under the guise of calling themselves the UK Government in a building constructed by them in their capital city but using all four countries money to do it, so there was never any intention at any time of Inglind perhaps thinking that any control of these Islands would ever God forbid be relinquished to any other constituent part or country of the so called UK and that it would forever be in the control of Inglind and whichever colour of Inglish party that would be

      Which brings me back to the Sinn Fein argument and it’s a simple one, why on earth do we inflict upon ourselves this continuous ad nauseam repetitive ritual of General Elections to send our advocates to Inglind in order to represent Scotland in a parliament where the people of that country don’t want us, the parliament itself is arranged to disallow us equity, and the party who is in charge in that place may only be the one Scotland voted for by coincidence and as has been shown many times what Scotland votes for doesn’t count

      So in Inglind our votes don’t count, our voices don’t count, our opinions don’t matter

      All this brings me to my final point which is, in Scotland why do we pay the slightest attention to anything Unionists have to utter when they have been voted out of Scotland for the last ten years, we clearly don’t want them here do we

      Maybe we should take back control

      If any Unionists are offended by this, thanks!

    46. Frann Leach says:

      £60? I’m hard pressed to spare a fiver for the book, but £60? No effing way I can raise that

    47. manandboy says:

      Greg Moodie says
      “Folks, please remember if you’re still planning on contributing, select the perk you want rather than the ‘Back It’ button at the top. It’s not clear and I’ve alerted Indiegogo to the problem. If you don’t choose a perk, we don’t get a note of where to send your goodies.”

      If like me you’re one of them wot didnt do it right,
      Just email Greg by clicking on his name/link, include your name and address and Greg will sort it. Couldn’t be simpler.
      Big thanks to Greg. Top man.

    48. manandboy says:

      Greg Moodie

      Try that.

    49. Greg Moodie says:

      @ Brian Powell
      Brian, of course we’ll make sure you get your perks, I just need you to email me with a postal address. (info at gregmoodie .com)

    50. yesindyref2 says:

      This is seriously ridiculous. The article goes up just before 10 this morning, though backers started yesterday, and it’s up to 110% with 21 days to go. With most on the Platinum at £60 to include soft Hamish.

      Just plain ridiculous!

    51. yesindyref2 says:

      Now, where in the name of the almighty whoosh, since my birthday’s gone and it’s not father’s day for 9 months, am I going to find £60 …

      … I’m on it boss.

    52. manandboy says:

      Sorry, can’t get Greg’s link to transfer.
      Alternatively, go to,

      Greg Moodie says:
      7 September, 2017 at 3:48 pm and click on greg moodie

      Or email him at info [at] gregmoodie [dot] com

    53. Greg Moodie says:

      @ yesindyref2
      It reached the 50% mark last night after around 8 hours of being live. Outrageous. Shouldn’t be allowed.

    54. manandboy says:

      Hi Greg, yep overlap, no worries. Job done.

    55. Petra says:

      @ crazycat says at 2:36 pm …. In the Herald article about this, one pipe fitter said that if we had “gotten independence” there would have been no work at all so Nicola Sturgeon was being hypocritical!…”

      The MSM in Scotland has a lot to answer for. Why has the Herald et al never reported on shipbuilding around the world, such as in countries like Norway and Finland? Meanwhile Unions are warning of the brain drain of skilled Scottish marine and naval engineers being targetted by countries such as Canada.

      Take a look at the UK list. Most of them closed down now.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_shipbuilders_and_shipyards

      …………………………………………

      The National is publishing a three-part series on Scottish engineering feats. Double page spread. Really interesting.

      http://www.thenational.scot/culture/15514438.Scotland_Back_In_The_Day__Engineering_feats_made_in_Scotland_mostly_from_girders/

      ……………………………………….

      Support Independence by subscribing to the National newspaper.

      http://www.thenational.scot/my/why/subscribe/?utm_source=The+National&utm_medium=earpiece-banner&utm_campaign=Subs+The+National&utm_content=3

    56. Tatu3 says:

      I agree with Dr Jim, above. Why DO we bother? It makes no sense at all to keep sending Scottish MPs to Westminster. “What Scotland votes for doesn’t count”.

    57. Petra says:

      Scotland is being run by a Tory party that they didn’t vote for and the DUP that they can’t (and wouldn’t want to) vote for.

      Living in a democracy? My backside.

    58. yesindyref2 says:

      @Greg Moodie
      Appalling behaviour, automatic vile cybernats indoctrinated theft trap.

      Mmm, wife informed me Christmas is coming up and if I get that, she gets £60 worth of something herself. Very appropriate I don’t get to open it till Christmas, always used to get the Giles annual (still got them all), but never bought the Express!

      I’ll check the card’s got credit on it 🙂

    59. Andy-B says:

      Craig Murray’s defence fund sails past £50,000 pounds, and although I disagree with George Galloway on his view on Scottish independence. Galloway contributed £500 quid to help Murray.

      Of course any put down of the Daily Mail, is welcome.

    60. Robert Peffers says:

      @Valerie says: 7 September, 2017 at 2:21 pm:

      “Quick glance at HoC, for first bit of debate on EU (withdrawal) Bill. Lots of empty green benches.”

      Aye! Valerie, The truth is beginning to sink into some Westminster brains what the situation is in reality.

      A reality any sensible person knew from the outset.

      There isn’t going to be a deal that comes anywhere near what our Imperial Westminster Masters imagined would be theirs for the asking, or should that read threatening?

      And NO I do not buy/read the Express and thus cannot/will not, give links to it.

      I’m cutting & pasting text directly from an on-line News agency website source. This from today’s Express:-

      “FURIOUS Michel Barnier today crushed Britain’s dream of a special trade deal with Europe and told the KU he is “very disappointed” by its refusal to accept the legal basis for paying a Brexit bill which is creating a crisis of confidence.”

      Also from today’s Express:-

      BRUSSELS boss Jean-Claude Juncker questioned Brexit secretary David Davis’ “stability and accountability” in an epic behind closed doors rant, an explosive dossier reveals today.

      And yet again from the Express today:-

      THE EU’s Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier has accused the UK of “backtracking” on a promise to settle its hefty divorce bill.

      In a shock attack on Brexit Secretary David Davis, Mr Barnier claimed he had lost “confidence and trust” in the UK.

      The Frenchman said Britain had U-turned on its pledge to settle various “financial commitments” after leaving the bloc.

      And he insisted former PM David Cameron agreed to the EU budget in 2013, meaning the UK will have no option but to pay up.

      Mr Barnier told a press conference in Brussels: “I’ve been very disappointed by the UK position as expressed last week.

      “Because it seems to be backtracking on the original position of the UK to honour its international commitments, including the commitments post-Brexit.

      “So there’s a problem of confidence here, so I’m worried about the credibility of 28 member states signing up to the commitments entailed by the EU budget.

      “We need to think about the future and work on a basis of confidence and trust.”

      Mr Barnier told a press conference in Brussels: “I’ve been very disappointed by the UK position as expressed last week.

      “Because it seems to be backtracking on the original position of the UK to honour its international commitments, including the commitments post-Brexit.

      “So there’s a problem of confidence here, so I’m worried about the credibility of 28 member states signing up to the commitments entailed by the EU budget.

      “We need to think about the future and work on a basis of confidence and trust.”

      Mr Barnier told a press conference in Brussels: “I’ve been very disappointed by the UK position as expressed last week.

      “Because it seems to be backtracking on the original position of the UK to honour its international commitments, including the commitments post-Brexit.

      “So there’s a problem of confidence here, so I’m worried about the credibility of 28 member states signing up to the commitments entailed by the EU budget.

      “We need to think about the future and work on a basis of confidence and trust.”

      His staggering comments came as MPs began to debate the historic EU Withdrawal Bill in the House of Commons.

      The legislation will revoke the 1972 Act taking the UK into the EEC and incorporate relevant EU laws into the British statute book.

      Labour plans to vote against the bill on its second reading, sparking claims the party is trying to block or frustrate Brexit.

      But Labour sources insisted its MPs wanted to stop undemocratic “power grab” by ministers under so-called Henry VIII powers./

    61. yesindyref2 says:

      Yay! Phoned up card automated balance and it said “yesindyref2 seeing as how it’s for Hamish, you have credit.” Amazing, they must read Wings. Can’t wait till Christmas 🙂 🙂 Nor can Mrs YIR2, she’s already mentally spending her £60 – pre-Christmas sale.

      @Andy-B
      Actually mainstream journalists and broadcasters should donate to his fund whatever their political bias – they’re under threat from that as well. So should Sky. I doubt the Daily Mail guy will have much company in his usual pubs, what a [redacted].

    62. Proud Cybernat says:

      Salmond taken down. Robertson taken down. Ahmed-Sheikh taken down. The Rev targeted. Andy Wightman targeted. Craig Murray targeted.

      Anyone see a pattern here?

      It’s the age-old tactic used the world over–take out the leaders and the followers will quit.

      Not an effing chance.

    63. Robert Peffers says:

      I do not know how many Wingers realise this fact but I think it will be very few indeed. It sure as hell surprised this old Winger.

      There will be more cross EU border roads between the two parts of Ireland than between all the other EU member states and non-EU states put together.

      Some roads in Ireland actually re-cross the borders several times.

      cite:-

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40949424

    64. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Robert Peffers. Barnier also said that the UK gov cant take EU citizenship from the NtIrish , they can be either all Irish EU citizen’s or Brit Irish citizens .

      Therein lies hope for Scottish EU citizenship .

    65. Andy-B says:

      On the debate today in the House of Commons regarding the now renamed EU Withdrawal bill.

      It was very interesting to listen to Sir Keir Starmer, highlight that Clause:11 of the bill will see all powers meant for the devolved governments and assembles, go straight to Westminster instead.

      Starmer also shone light onto the possibility (due to the complexity but more like the incompetence of the UK government) the real need to extend the EU final exiting date of 2019.

      David Davis the Secretary of State for Exiting the EU, sat opposite Starmer, with what can only be described as a smug grin, on his face.

      Even Sir Ken Clarke, the current Father of the House, on giving his speech today appeared somewhat perturbed at the direction Brexit is moving in.

    66. Robert Peffers says:

      @heedtracker says: 7 September, 2017 at 2:59 pm:

      ” … Its the smoking ban that’s closing boozers down.”

      Reality check here, heedtracker –

      As there are now a great deal many more non-smoking Scots than there are Scots who smoke the claim that the smoking ban is closing Scottish pubs is absolute rubbish.

      In fact the ban on smokers should encourage more people who want to avoid second hand tobacco smoke back into pubs.

    67. yesindyref2 says:

      @cearc
      F*ck that for a game of soldiers. If you email Chris Cairns, or Greg Moodie with your address details, I’ve still got credit on my card. I’ll put it through for your address, and you can repay me direct to bank account when you’re able. I end up summer with money, but earn little over winter so don’t get cashflow problems till after January. BDTT has my email as does Paula and Lenny, and we can arrange communication (I’m naturally wary of making myself known). Better still if you can carefully drop your email address in OT.

    68. wull2 says:

      It’s good to see the latest thread is not clogged up with the usual culprits spouting the usual rubbish, diving away new visitors. This is mainly an Impedance site, although other views are welcome, but not every day, all day.
      In that last thread I almost stopped going to the site myself, but to do this it is what they want.
      Vote YES next time.

    69. Hamish100 says:

      Ffion I don’t do Chinese goods. Remember to avoid the new bridge with Chinese steel.

      There are exploiters of people everywhere including Scotland. Speak to young people working in certain stores.

    70. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Worth repeating (since you won’t get it from the BritNat MSM, is this extract from Michel Barnier’s speech of last week, telling it like it is:

      “The UK government decided to leave the Single Market and the Customs Union.

      We respect this sovereign decision.

      But one thing is clear: The Single Market, the EU capacity to regulate, to supervise, to enforce our laws, must not and will not be undermined by Brexit.

      The UK strongly contributed to the development of our single market which is the foundation of the EU. It understands well, very well, how it works.

      The European Council guidelines state that the Union will preserve its autonomy of decision-making.

      The UK wants to take back control, it wants to adopt its own standards and regulations.

      But it also wants to have these standards recognised automatically in the EU. That is what UK papers ask for.

      This is simply impossible. You cannot be outside the Single Market and shape its legal order.

      Thirdly, the first phase of this negotiation is about creating trust.

      Let me take two examples where we still need to build trust.

      On citizens’ rights

      We have clarified a few points this week, but we need to go further to reassure citizens.

      Over the summer, around one hundred EU and EEA citizens living lawfully in the UK received deportation letters.

      The UK government quickly recognised that this was a mistake.

      But this is not the first time that something like this has happened.

      It reinforces the need to ensure that citizens’ rights are directly enforceable in front of national jurisdictions, under the control of the European Court of justice, a point on which we disagree today.

      On the financial settlement

      EU taxpayers should not pay at 27 for the obligations undertaken at 28. This would not be fair.

      In July, the UK recognised that it has obligations beyond the Brexit date.

      But this week the UK explained that these obligations will be limited to their last payment to the EU budget before departure.

      Yet we have joint obligations towards third countries. For example:
      We have guaranteed long-term loans to Ukraine, together.
      We jointly support development in Africa, the Caribbean and Pacific countries through the European Development Fund.

      After this week, it is clear that the UK does not feel legally obliged to honour these obligations after departure.

      We have also jointly committed to support innovative enterprises and green infrastructure in European regions until 2020. These are not recognised by the UK as legal obligations.

      With such uncertainty, how can we build trust and start discussing a future relationship?

      We need to address together these issues seriously and rigorously.”

    71. Giving Goose says:

      Crazycat

      It’s not just Clyde anger (or lack of) that is the issue.

      It is the fact that the English navy ship orders were weaponised (excuse the obvious pun) to scare the greater electorate.

      Of course anyone with half a brain could see through the lies about “Frigate factories” and additional orders.

      Damage was done and the GMB union should for ever more be known as friends of the Tories.

      The GMB – Bowing and Scraping to Their London Tory Masters at a shipyard near you.

    72. Capella says:

      Ordered the bumper cartoon book but will wait and see whether the Hamish toy comes out as a fundraising item. Will get a badge at least!
      Good to see the total zooming past the target. Got to fund the holidays somehow.

      I’m all donated out this month what with Stu, Craig, and previously Andy all waiting for the courts to pronounce.

      On Heydrich – waiting for another set of docs to arrive, probably in the next couple of weeks so hope to be able to update on the quote soon.
      Still on the case.

    73. Bill Hume says:

      I’m a wee bit perturbed at the number of pro independence people who need my money right now. On the other hand, I’m not being asked to stand in a muddy field near Stirling, with a pike or sword and expected to defeat the largest army in the British isles.
      So…..money is only money.

    74. Andy-B says:

      Well, these are very interesting political times, as a ex-Secretary of State for Scotland contradicts the opinion of the current Secretary of state for Scotland.

      LibDem, MP Alistair Carmichael has said that, Theresa May’s government are about to attempt a blatant power grab, using Clause :11 of the EU Exiting bill.

      However the current Secretary of State for Scotland David Mundell, has dismissed the claim. I’m not surprised at Mundell’s position, however I’m pleasantly surprised that Carmichael, hasn’t defended the British governments position on Clause:11.

    75. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Definition of an EXPERT @manandboy says at 3:11 pm

      “On the GMB website, the Union’s logo includes the title ‘experts in the world of work’

      EX = A Has Been

      Spurt = A Drip under pressure.

      You can see the BLiS link more clearly when this definition is used.

      🙂

    76. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Giving Goose @ 18:20,

      Not to forget that Richard Leonard, candidate for Branch Manager of Labour’s Northern Accounting Unit, was a long-term organiser in Central Scotland for the very same GMB. So from recent experience of that bunch, we can likely expect a dissembling forelock-tugger at the helm if he wins.

    77. budwiser says:

      Were the SNP at Westminster today???

      Because every news bulletin I have heard has only mentioned the Tories and the Labour Party.

    78. Tackety Beets says:

      Anyone catch Radio Shortbread tonight about 17.50 ?

      I only caught a bit as passenger was gassing! (Can YE no Wheesht when yer telt!)

      Sounded like a woman from one of the Islands being bombarded by hurricane found time to bring Brexit into the report.
      What I thought she said , words to this effect ” when our island ( being British) exits EU we have a problem because the other half of our Island is French & they too are in EU ” etc etc

      As I said I’m sketchy with detail as passenger widna Wheesht!

      Brexit nightmare continues ……. To get worse instead of better.

      I’ll hopefully catch it later on tinternit.

    79. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      We surely are living in Interesting Times @Andy-B says at 6:59 pm

      “ex-Secretary of State for Scotland contradicts the opinion of the current Secretary of state for Scotland.”

      Legally Proven Liar, Kirk Elder, Gentleman Farmer & (FibDem MP) Alistair Carmichael

      VS

      Fluffy Mundell, Last Viceroy of Her Imperial Majesty’s Colony of Scotland (aka North Bwitain) and subject of joke used in ill considered court case.

      Which is telling the truth (if any)?

      Looks like Ali, Ali Pants on fire might be for a change.

    80. Meg merrilees says:

      Andy-B

      Carmichael the Liar is a Scottish solicitor and the Law Society of Scotland has already condemned the bill as being a blatant WM power grab.
      Hence he can stand against it with impunity – but at least he has done so.

      I think this is the angle that Sir Keir Stammer is also taking when he says Labour will vote against it.

      Let’s hope they do – we can watch the fireworks starting pretty soon. Stock up on popcorn

    81. galamcennalath says:

      Brexit, the turd that just won’t flush away. An excellent editorial from the Guardian, IMO.

      It’s about Ireland and Brexit but highlights the far out thinking of Brexiteers. They simply don’t understand how the EU functions and what it stands for.

      Small countries in the EU matter and in this negotiation I have no doubt that the Irish government have a greater say on the outcome than the UK. That is something the UK has to come to terms with.

      http://archive.is/1EXg9

      In a wider context, the Ireland / EU position could have enormous implications for an iScotland.

    82. yesindyref2 says:

      Carmichael needs to redeem himself and regain “integrity”, and should be encouraged to do so.

    83. yesindyref2 says:

      Half OT – outline spec for the T31E (at £250 million).

      http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/royal-navy-issues-outline-specification-for-the-type-31-frigate-to-industry/

      I think the idea may be to keep the initial budget low, and upgrade during the lifetime, so need for flexibility and modularity. Sensible political approach, actually and sadly.

    84. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      galamcennalath @ 19:54,

      I have just written to the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Relations Committee on a similar point: how can any proposed settlement differentiate between NI and Scotland? Constitutionally-speaking, the UK is either a unitary state in its entirety or not at all.

      The Commmittee is meeting with Barnier in Brussels this coming Monday. The outcome should be interesting, though we’re likely to hear very little of it from RepScot, I expect.

    85. Macart says:

      @galamcennalath

      Good catch and well worth spreading.

      I suspect also a subject which may be raised when Mr Barnier next meets the FM.

    86. Ken500 says:

      The Libdem convicted liar. Did the Law Society not debar him. The LibDem coalition who jumped into power with Cameron caused Brexit. They facilitated it. Hypocrisy and duplicity beyond belief. Shameless.Have the LibDems been charged with electoral fraud yet. Along with the Tories.

      Why are the military constantly posing with a football club. The military is supposed to be non political. Funded by all taxpayers. Not used for political purposes. Subject to Police investigation.

      They ‘arrest’ enough people on ‘charges’ that can never go to court. Wasting public money.

    87. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Robert Peffers at 5.34

      Agreed, Robert (I’ve had two pubs). It is nothing to do with the smoking ban.(Most pubs have a sheltered outside place for smoking anyway).

      It is to do with supermarket drink prices which means that a punter can buy five or six large cans of lager for the price of one pint in the pub. Also draught prices from brewers are extortionate and especially so in tied houses which not only pay extortionate beer prices but are tied to buying most of their other stock at ludicrous prices through the brewer. A drop off in trade in pubs (due to supermarket competition and dear prices for draught beer)has led to further raised prices in pubs which has worsened the situation.

      Longer hours with all the costs and no increase in possible revenue has also made pubs less viable, not more viable.

      The loss of decent well run pubs, which in many areas were the social and community centre,is a sad concern.

    88. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 20:05,

      Your sentiments are kindly, and some kind of reputational redemption should always be available. We need conversions to win! For me though he was the Tories’ bag-carrier and hatchet-man in Scotland during the late-unlamented coalition, so I would look for rather more from him than this easy step.

      My personal touchstone would be his outright rejection of the LibDems’ current hypocritical position of wanting an all-UK EURef2 while outright denying an indyref2.

    89. Ken500 says:

      The are more gyms as social places. Changing lifestyles.

      @ Craig Murray

      ‘Bell Pottinger to go bust within days’.

    90. Andy-B says:

      Mike Russell, the Scottish governments chief, in dealing with Brexit, has said at a Scottish Parliaments Europe Committee meeting, that Westminster’s treatment of devolved governments/assembles, has been “Intolerable.”

      The Scottish government have also expressed dismay at a lack of consultation by the UK Government on its series of Brexit papers, some of which cover areas of devolved competence such as civil law.

      Mr Russell added that the UK could possibly be in breach of the constitution over its shoddy handling of Brexit. Russell went on to say that Scottish ministers cannot recommend giving their consent to the EU Exiting bill as it stands.

      It looks as though we are heading for a constitutional crisis. The Scottish government must remain resolute on all matters.

    91. John de Soulis says:

      yesindyref2 @8:05 says

      “Carmichael needs to redeem himself and regain “integrity”, and should be encouraged to do so.”

      Carmichael has no integrity to recover, if his arse was on a ministerial seat and or the lib dems were still in coalition he would have the same opinion as fluffy.

      Don’t be deceived by these people compared to them corkscrews look straight. 😉

    92. Fireproofjim says:

      Tackety Beets @7.27
      The only island shared by two countries in the West Indies is St Martin but the French share it with the Dutch, not the British.
      There are a few small British islands which were offered independence but refused – Turks & Caicos, British Virgins, Anguilla. & Montserrat. All are being hammered by Hurricane Irma..

    93. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Andy-B @ 20:38,

      A very encouraging development, and about time too.

      The SG and Holyrood should make such a constitutional uproar over Brexit in Scotland that the UKGov would be only too willing to get us gone.

      Tough luck on those remaining PSBs, as their eyes are finally opened to the hard fact that they don’t matter a toss to their erstwhile “partners” masters.

    94. budwiser says:

      In the short time I have been using Wings I have noticed that there is a tight group who talk amongst themselves and if you are not in that tight clique then you are ignored.

      just my opinion.

      Nevertheless, it is a very informative site.

    95. yesindyref2 says:

      OT
      https://www.snp.org/the_prime_minister_must_stop_dancing_to_the_tune_of_her_right_wing_backbenchers

      Good restrained moderate language from Ian Blackford, setting out the stall.

    96. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland
      Well, he would be a highly visible “Journey to YES”, and logically it is his only destination. He’s supposed to have been highly regarded, and some say (me for instance) that he was overtaken by his role as a Minister, effectively subverted by Westminster, and became what he was then. But if that’s not the “real” Alastair Carmichael he’s going to have to work twice as hard to redeem himself.

      He did get re-elected by his constituents, and I doubt they’re an easy bunch to fool.

    97. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      budwiser @ 20:47,

      Hi bud,

      Sorry you feel like that. I get routinely ignored, but press on regardless, hoping that some reader somewhere still recognises my acute observational insights. =grin=

      So what do you want to discuss…?

      (PS: I fervently hope you are inspired by the Czech wonder brew rather than the US p*sswater. =laugh=)

    98. Valerie says:

      Hi budwiser and welcome

      Just out in your tuppence! Yes, there are some that post much more than others, but pays to remember there are also a lot of lurkers, just reading, and your point may resonate with them!

      We need new blood 🙂

    99. stewartb says:

      Noting the discussion about Mr Carmichael and his potential for journeying to yes.

      I live in hope that one of our present day poets/composers will create something along the lines of the song ‘Parcel of Rogues’ that is fit for our times and will endure very long after I’m gone. I live in hope that the lyrics will reference the ‘rogues’ that are Darling and Brown for the roles they played in 2014. They will have an ignominious place in Scotland’s ‘future’ history.

      Mr Carmichael could still be viewed differently when the history of this time comes to be written .. as could e.g. Mr McLeish! But the time for these and others with a public profile to stand up and be counted for Scotland’s self-determination is now!

    100. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Budwiser –

      Some chat away wi’ each other, ignore others…it’s a complex network of relationships that’s grown over the years and no-one can keep across all the permutations and comings and goings.

      Aye, it’s informative, but it should also be a welcoming and enjoyable experience.

      😉

    101. yesindyref2 says:

      @budwiser
      Yes, there’s a main group, but there’s also fringe groups, and people like me just doing our own thing regardless. Sometimes people reply to us sometimes people insult us. Often they just ignore us. Makes life easier.

      The thing to remember though is that btl – below the line – that’s us forum posters – there’s no obligation to post. So if you say something like “the sky is pink” and some people call you a “yoon” for saying so, maybe where you are the sky IS pink and it’s sunset and it’s going to be a good day tomorrow.

      Where I am it’s been p&ssing down with rain 🙂

    102. Katie says:

      Omigod! I love Hamish!!! I think he might be the new Alexander Meerkat! 🙂

    103. Robert Peffers says:

      @ronnie anderson says: 7 September, 2017 at 5:25 pm:

      ” … Barnier also said that the UK gov cant take EU citizenship from the NtIrish , they can be either all Irish EU citizen’s or Brit Irish citizens .
      Therein lies hope for Scottish EU citizenship”

      I’ve been telling you much the same thing, Ronnie, since the idea of a UK exit was first mentioned.

      The whole point of the EU is to protect all EU citizens and if the EU cannot be seen to be doing so then the EU is a pointless union.

      All it requires is for the EU to state what is actually the truth. That the United Kingdom is exactly what it calls itself A United Kingdom, of ONLY two former independent, equally sovereign, kingdoms. It has never been legally a single unified country.

      If you, or anyone else, can find any legal proof that the Westminster Establishment’s claim it is a unified country is true when there are obviously four distinct countries contained in the two partner kingdoms, (and three of them were already parts of the Kingdom of England long before the Treaty of Union was signed), then I wish they would cite their evidence.

      The Westminster Establishment claims that the Treaty of Union EXTINGUISHED the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as, “The United Kingdom” but there is no evidence that is true.

      Yet the Westminster Parliament is certainly now operating as the de facto Parliament of the Country of England and openly uses EVEL to prove that it does. Yet at the same time Westminster calls itself, (when it isn’t claiming to be Britain), The United Kingdom.

      It factually cannot be both and neither can it be either as long as it operates as the Parliament of England and the proof of that pudding is there is no elected members to a parliament of England. Westminster is therefore the, unelected as such, Parliament of England. Nicola Sturgeon was elected as a Member of the Scottish Parliament & Theresa May was elected as a Members of the United Kingdom Parliament. So no one elected Thereasa as the leader of the Parliament of England

      Factually no one is elected as a member of the Parliament of England because there legally is no such parliament.

      The Westminster Establishment must imagine that the 27 other states of the European Parliament are all bloody idiots.

      In the wind up of the UKExit negotiations all the EU negotiator needs do is tell Westminster that the EU only recognises that the United Kingdom is exactly what it calls itself.

      That the EU Citizens of the Kingdom of Scotland democratically voted to remain as EU citizens and Scotland will remain in the EU as the hereditary partner of the now dis-united former United Kingdom and what remains is thus the three country Kingdom of England. It is thus that Kingdom of England, that has no elected parliament, that must decide what and who will officially govern England. Get your shares in Pop Corn manufacturing in now before the share values goes sky high.

      Now you may hold a different view but the fact is the EU will be diminished by more than losing a member state if it cannot guarantee to protect its own existing EU citizens right to remain EU citizens.

      I’ll make a prediction now, that in the not too distant future, All Ireland will be reunited and Scotland will be again, first an independent kingdom and shortly afterwards an independent republic.

      Wales, though, now that’s quite a different story as they have been subject to English immigration since before The Statute of Rhuddlan in 1284 and the Prince of Wales is the first born son of the legally sovereign monarch of England.

    104. jfngw says:

      @StewartB

      I’ll not hold my breath waiting on Carmichael’s transition to Yes, Orkney was the highest area for No in 2014. They tend to see themselves as Orcadians first, I don’t really think they see a parliament in Westminster or Holyrood will make any difference to them. Don’t know about Shetland, never been there.

    105. Highland Wifie says:

      @budwiser
      I’m a new poster myself and it can be disconcerting when you seem to be ignored. I try not to take it personally. I only post when I feel the urge and it gets it off my chest at least.
      I enjoy reading all the posts but hardly respond to any. There must be lots of us like that so you are in good company! Keep going.

    106. HandandShrimp says:

      Welcome Budwiser

      I like to doodle in the margins but I do enjoy the banter of the regulars. I don’t think there is any bar on becoming a regular but some post way more so they tend to get involved in far more conversations. Posting can become a major past time.

    107. uno mas says:

      @ Budwiser

      Still feeling left out and ignored?

      The general rule on this site is that if you post something interesting or informative then the other contributers will reply or add further comment.

      If at times a good post gets overlooked it´s because the standard of posts and information shared is so high that sometimes you have to shout to get a hearing.

      This is one of the factors that make this site so successful.

    108. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Peffers @ 21:59,

      The whole UK so-called “constitution” is an unredeemable swamp. (EVEL in WM being the most recent effluent added.)

      I have long held that the least-recognised element of English resistance to Scottish independence is their repressed understanding that the event would also bring down the whole house of cards south of the border, and force a long-needed wholesale reformation.

      The corollary being that those in Scotland who are sympathetic to English constitutional reform should actually support independence!

      Please note that, Cat Boyd and all such fellow-travellers…

    109. mike d says:

      Giving goose 1.48pm. Exactly,let’s call it what it is. The REN. The “Royal English Navy”. And don’t you forelock tugging,knee bending,a**e shafted proud scot buts forget that.

    110. budwiser says:

      Thanks for all the compassionate replies, LOL

    111. budwiser says:

      Like the rest of you I am just counting down the seconds to IndyRef2.

    112. Macart says:

      @budwiser

      *waves*

      “Like the rest of you I am just counting down the seconds to IndyRef2.

      Me too. 🙂

    113. Capella says:

      Interesting 40 min video on who owns Scotland. Interview with Andy Wightman, which goes some way to explaining why he is being attacked in the courts. This is a very edgy issue.:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uatkF8Msyc

      The comment from Ian Duncan 2 yrs ago (third down) is particularly apt

    114. mike d says:

      Robert 9.59pm. Agree with your prediction for a united Ireland. But as for Scotland! My head says no. Too many incomers indifferent to our aspirations. Abetted by our enemy within.

    115. Robert Peffers says:

      @budwiser says: 7 September, 2017 at 8:47 pm:

      “In the short time I have been using Wings I have noticed that there is a tight group who talk amongst themselves and if you are not in that tight clique then you are ignored.
      just my opinion.”

      Perhaps you have been around for too short a time, budwiser?
      The only ones that get ignored are those who have rather questionable motives and agendas. You will find that if you have a different opinion it will be listened to and replied to and logical arguments will be offered.

      let’s face it that in some cases these people can never be part of a real independence movement because they have set views that will never be changed. The present lot are anti-SNP. Now no one, not even this life long SNP supporter agrees 100% with the party but factually the SNP are quite different from all other UK political parties in that the leadership does not form party policy.

      Party policy can only be agreed by the delegates sent by local branches to National Conference. Thus party policy is decided by the rank & file members and not by the parliamentarians or by outside organs like the Labour Party supporting individual Trade Unions, or even the TUC or STUC and the Tory party supporting big Business and long term groups like the 1922 Committee. The SNP membership mainly upholds conference democratic decisions. Those who do not usually resign from the party as a matter of conscience but will usually continue to support most of the party’s policies as independents.

      If, though, it is mince that these you claim to be outsiders are postulating then it will be treated as mince and in most cases such differing views only debated until it become obvious there is a hidden agenda behind their comments.

      There is currently a bunch of such commenters attempting to disrupt threads.

    116. Ghillie says:

      Hey there Budwiser = )

      Well you certainly have not been ignored tonight!

      Actualy. No one is ignored.

      Because, I for one, read and appreciate every single post.

      (with the exception of a few Gish Gallopers who get skipped over)

      That’s for everyone btw 🙂

    117. ronnie anderson says:

      @ budwiser just keep playing the keyboard , the notes dont need to be in the right order as long as your playing our tune INDEPENDENCE .

      See how easy it is to be recognised .

    118. Bob p says:

      Have to agree with Mike d. The Irish have a pride in their nation.And their own abilities. something that a lot of so called “proudscot buts “will never have. JC, and then my english born kids wonder why i despise one half of my fellow country men. Aye only in Scotland.

    119. Ghillie says:

      Hey Ronnie thats a really nice way to put it =)

    120. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Ghillie I do hit a turn of phrase noo n again since ma speilings improved lol .

    121. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Oh dear, joined now by a couple of other dismal Rockalikes to put a damper on the party. “We’re doooomed….”

      Don’t agree chaps.

      I prescribe a complete session of “No to Yes” videos. Maybe then you’ll feel a little better.

      (Assuming you’re actually open to the possibility, that is.)

    122. Bob p says:

      RJS. No I’m not a rockalike. But i won’t hold my breath on our country becoming independent. BUT fingers crossed.

    123. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi ronnie anderson at 10:57 pm.

      You typed,
      “@ Ghillie I do hit a turn of phrase noo n again since ma speilings improved lol .”

      I’m happy that you believe that your speilings improved. Next, you’ll be announcing that you’re consuming grammar peels. A man of your talents should be able to peel a grammar… ripe or no’…

      8=)

    124. dakk says:

      @budwiser

      I for one have noted and appreciate your contributions in last few weeks.

      Don’t have much time to comment myself now but still try keep abreast as best I can.

      Personally,I find a wee bit of trolling will solicit some response 🙂

    125. Fionan says:

      Hamish100
      If you go to reply to a comment, at least have the common decency to read it first. Firstly, the bridge is of no interest to me, and I am not likely to use it.

      Secondly, I never mentioned exploitation of people. I am perfectly aware of the exploitation of people in Scotland and elsewhere, and I despise it, and I despise those who perpetrate exploitation.

      As far as I am aware, mass routine prolonged severe torture of sentient beings of any kind, human or otherwise, for the purpose of ‘increasing’ some perverted tossers’ ‘virility’ does not take place in Scotland, or indeed in most countries. But it does take place daily in China and Thailand, Bali and Korea. For that reason, I boycott all and any goods from these countries. Bridges and all.

      I hope that clarifies my previous comment for you.

    126. Rock says:

      John de Soulis,

      “Carmichael has no integrity to recover, if his arse was on a ministerial seat and or the lib dems were still in coalition he would have the same opinion as fluffy.

      Don’t be deceived by these people compared to them corkscrews look straight. ?”

      Very well said.

      Same applies to the likes of Dugdale.

      The independence movement should keep well away from them, if it wants to have any credibility.

      In my humble opinion, too many on the Yes side are gullible and easily taken in by the likes of Carmichael and Dugdale.

    127. Rock says:

      budwiser,

      “In the short time I have been using Wings I have noticed that there is a tight group who talk amongst themselves and if you are not in that tight clique then you are ignored.”

      Very well said.

      WOS is a Scottish political blog, but the usual suspects want to turn it into a cosy chatting site.

    128. Chick McGregor says:

      Mike Cassidy
      “Could we get Hamish to mate with Jacob Rees Moggie?”

      Throwing Christians to the lions, is even too passe for the Tories, or is it?

    129. Could Craig Murray be eligible for a grant from The Joseph Rowntree Reform Trust,

      `Our Aims
      The Trust seeks to:

      correct imbalances of power, supporting the voice of the individual, the small and weak where that voice is stifled by the group, the big and strong.`

      the establishment have been using their judicial system to attack anyone they see as a threat to their hold on power,

      remember what happened to Tommy Sheridan,even proven innocent was not enough to save him.

    130. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Brian Doonthetoon I laugh in the face of the grammatical correctness , loud Peels of laughter ( is ma comma in the right place ) lol .

    131. Petra says:

      Hi Budwiser. A big welcome from me.

      ……………………………

      Taken from the National notice board:

      The Ferret is holding a symposium on Saturday at the Dreel Halls in Anstruther from 11:00am to 5:00pm. It includes a debate on freedom of information with speakers such as former Scottish Police Authority Board member Moi Ali and Andy Wightman. After the AGM there will be food, drink and live music at the Boathouse. Tickets are £5 to £19 (plus booking fee) from bit.ly/FerretSymp

      ………………….

      SNP CND presents Two Men and a Bomb: How Close Did They Take Us? At 1pm on Sunday in the CCA, 350 Sauchiehall Street, Glasgow. Speakers include George Kerevan, Bill Kidd MSP who was an observer at the UN when it recently formulated the Nuclear Weapons Ban Treaty; and anti-nuclear campaigner Brian Quail.

      …………………..

      Craigentinny / Duddingston SNP invites fellow members to Renewing the SNP Policy Agenda; Delivering on the Promise of Progressive Reform. Speakers include Robin McAlpine, Simon Barrow (author of A Nation Changed); Barbara-Anne Haig (Social Bite) and Richard Dixon (Friends of the Earth Scotland). Saturday from 3pm to 6pm at Out of the Blue, Dalmeny Street, Leith. Book a free place via bit.ly/Craigentinny

    132. cearc says:

      yesindyref2,

      That’s very sweet of you but I’d rather not make the commitment. Paul has my email

    133. Col says:

      It would be great if the EU recognised both Northern Ireland’s vote to remain aswell as Scotland’s. I have my doubts whether they will go to too great a length for us though. Ireland does seem to have very specific needs I think. Maybe there’s deals being made in the background there who knows.

    134. Ghillie says:

      Just listened to FMQ.

      My belief that we are well on our way to Independence, lead by an exceptionaly competant Government, is again refreshed and renewed 🙂

    135. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Robert Peffers 9.59 [I’ll make a prediction now, that in the not too distant future, All Ireland will be reunited and Scotland will be again, first an independent kingdom and shortly afterwards an independent republic.]

      I whole heartedly agree with your sentiments , with the exception to the Republic part of your post that i fear will take a bit longer 15/20 yrs longer . It will take roughly 10 yrs for Scotland & the People to adjust to Independence & i hope we have a stable SNP gov during those years .

    136. cearc says:

      Tackety breeks,

      Didn’t hear it but I did read something a while back about the ‘territories’. People were almighty upset. Many of the islands are very interdependent for trade, tourism, resources and everything.

      Having customs etc would be a major clusterfudge and they didn’t even get a vote on it!

    137. Tackety Beets says:

      Fireproofjim @ 8.45 pm

      Thank you.
      Indeed it was the island of Anguilla that was discussed and the lady (Blondel Clough?) was really concerned about very essential EU funding being lost after 2019 Brexit & it will be imperative UK to step forward to replace their EU funding loss.
      Due to the devastation on the island , funding support is now even more imperative.

      Apparently St Martin is also classed as EU French as you say and most of Anguilla supplies , fuel etc comes via St Martin and there is grave concern for the island following Brexit, Border ImportationTariffs etc etc

      Yet again another fine mess!

      Gradually the real can o worms are being exposed.

    138. Hamish100 says:

      Fionan

      Did read your comment over who you boycot.

      That’s why I responded to your very picky good bad approach to countries. Merely pointed out that exploitation also happens here.

      China Thailand Bali and Korea. North or south?you choose

      Why no African countries! Middle East? South America! Russia?

      Remember now never to use the new bridge full of Chinese steel.

    139. Tackety Beets says:

      Cearc @ 12.07 am

      Cheers & thank you, I was scribing on iPad at same time.

      Now you tell me they didnae get t vote FFS ….. WM at its effin best …. “Aww what does it matter what they think ! ”

      Sorry been a bit off grid & as above, sometimes get a bit scunnered reading every post when it’s a bit techy with some best no mentioned.

      Anyone point me to a link with Craig Murray’s actual Sky Interview or what he said etc curious to catch up on it.

      As fur ye Ronnie yea crack me up … Smiley fing !

    140. Ian Brotherhood says:

      🙂

    141. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Tackety Beets Am the ronnie wie the sma r , the ither Ronnie’s fae Aberdeen as fur the crack’s paper ower them mind dont uas wan o they shitty papers lol .

    142. Liz g says:

      Hamish 100 @ 12.11
      That’s no very fair and no very nice of you Hamish 100.
      Fionan posted about a stand she has taken about one of the many horrible abuses that take place around this planet.
      And just because she can’t end all of it…. doesn’t mean that she shouldn’t do something!
      That “something” also includes raising awareness of the issue.
      We are ultimately discussing how to shape Scotland going forward…are we no ?
      So I would have said that we (Scots) do need informed about any and all things that other countries are up to… wouldn’t you?
      I could think of a much stupid-er thing to be gettin upset about….and I know …. to my cost you can too.

    143. Meg merrilees says:

      Ghillie and
      For anyone who missed it today at FMQ’s

      Nicola’s rallying call:

      The message that I want to send out to people here at home, to people elsewhere in the UK and people internationally … is:

      Scotland is the best place in the world to grow up in and be educated,
      Scotland is the best place in the world to be cared for if you are sick or vulnerable or in need,
      Scotland is the best place in the world to grow old in
      and it’s the best place in the world because of our investment in infrastructure, in digital and in business support to invest and do business in as well.
      That’s the message I want to send to the world about Scotland and all of us need to make sure we do everything that is necessary to deliver that kind of world class nation.

    144. colin alexander says:

      @Robert Peffers

      Re the SNP: Why is party policy decided by delegates? Why not “one member = one vote”, you know, like real democracy?

      Is that too democratic for the SNP leadership?

    145. Meg merrilees says:

      Great front page on the National today…

      https://twitter.com/ScotNational

    146. Meg merrilees says:

      Nicola’s rallying call at today’s FMQ’s:

      The message that I want to send out to people here at home, to people elsewhere in the UK and people internationally … is:

      Scotland is the best place in the world to grow up in and be educated,
      Scotland is the best place in the world to be cared for if you are sick or vulnerable or in need,
      Scotland is the best place in the world to grow old in
      and it’s the best place in the world because of our investment in infrastructure, in digital and in business support to invest and do business in as well.
      That’s the message I want to send to the world about Scotland and all of us need to make sure we do everything that is necessary to deliver that kind of world class nation.

    147. Meg merrilees says:

      Sorry my mistake- getting impatient in my dotage

    148. cearc says:

      Tackety boots

      I think Anguilla might be wanting to change their constitutional status, especially now.

      France and Netherlands are already there and dealing with St.Martin/St.Maarten whilst the trust brits are sending – (from the Guardian} –

      ‘… HMS Ocean, carrying at least three helicopters, which will take 10 to 14 days to reach the area, and hundreds of marines and royal engineers who will be sent in RAF transport planes…’

      I am sure the inhabitants will be delighted to know that they’re on their way, the delights of being an afterthought of the brit Empire.

    149. yesindyref2 says:

      @cearc
      I know what you mean, just something else to have to worry about!

    150. yesindyref2 says:

      OT
      What I really like about our Kevin is he states something done by “zoomers” which probably doesn’t happen, then posts a link to support his claim which shows he didn’t read and doesn’t understand what he linked to.

      https://twitter.com/kevverage/status/905923553031270401

      Look at the flowdiagrem, and the “subtle” difference between non-euro area members for the EDP, and the euro members for the EDP.

      http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/graphs/2014-11-10_excessive_deficit_procedure_explained_en.htm

      I guess he didn’t “notice”, especially the “sanctions” box for euro members which ain’t there for non-euro members. He’s one of our greatest assets because people actually quote him, and have him in the papers and on TV.

      Murphy is right, he’s best left alone to do his thing for us. Just the occasional bear prod, and away he goes, biting his own tail.

      We’re going to need more sterile dressings.

    151. yesindyref2 says:

      Suitable comment appended to the Speccie blog article 🙂 Upvotes would bring it to the top, only 9 needed.

    152. Nana says:

      The UK Gov’s Brexit Bill lays bare the betrayal of devolved administrations at risk of a Tory power grab
      https://twitter.com/PeterGrantMP/status/905820264843411457

      https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexitinc/james-cusick-adam-ramsay-crina-boros/revealed-tory-mps-using-taxpayers-cash-to-fund-sec

      Theresa May Accused Of ‘Rigging Parliament’ With New Move To Give Tories Majority On Legislation
      http://archive.is/YXvLa

      http://www.cityam.com/271595/europe-blocks-brexit-talks-entering-trade-phase-until

    153. schrodingers cat says:

      Alex Salmond: Scotland joining EFTA should be on next indyref ballot

      good

    154. Liz Rannoch says:

      Very happy to see you back Nana, really missed the links.

      Take care of you. The effort you (and Smallaxe) put into this is incredible and I know it’s well appreciated by the rest of the wingers.

      Now – the links – lots of lovely links.

    155. Nana says:

      Morning Liz, here’a another one for you

      Alex Salmond calls for Scotland to be in free trade area to escape ‘full English Brexit’
      http://archive.is/YXadj

    156. yesindyref2 says:

      @Nana: “As I’ve been out of the loop

      Are you trying to imply the rest of us are loopy? Well, speaking for myself to myself, ummm, perhaps 🙂

      @cat
      Salmond and Sturgeon both being at the BfS dinner is likely quite siginifcant, as is Salmond’s take on EFTA (+EEA) membership to keep iScotland in the single market but not necessarily stay in the customs union, depending on what the rUK does – getting rid of that Solway-Tweed border.

      Seems to me that Sturgeon even though leader of the SNP is constrained to act as the FM and follow the Scottish Gvoernment’s line on the single market, which could be different from the SNP line (basically EU), strangely enough.

      Salmond isn’t even an MP now, “just” an ordinary member, and can use this to great advantage. He doesn’t speak for the SNP so the party is not committed to his line, and so he can explore far more what some of the membership, and the wider YES movement might want, and test the reactions.

      He can also of course be a stirrer, which done wisely stops the unionist porridge from getting lumpy. Soak your oats overnight with a little salt and then sugar to taste with milk if preferred. Yes, he can milk that for all he’s worth. Which is a lot, frankly.

    157. Ken500 says:

      New SNP policies are decided by a show of hands at the packed overflowing Party Conferences by the delegates sent from the constituency Party, who are told by the members how the majority of the branches members. Any member can attend.

      Not autocratic like many political Parties who go to War on the wishes of a crook. Or starve the poor, their own citizens against UN human rights legislation. Break the Law and do not enforce the Law. Lie, cheat and commit crime and get away with it. They haven’t go enough members to stand competent candidates. Even after ten years of minority Gov on a rigged electoral system the SNP stilll win landslide victories. The Tories just lost their majority and have to rely on racists and bigots as candidates.

      Anyone can see the difference,. That’s why hardly anyone will join unionist Parties, especially in Scotland, where there is credible alternative. People who are worried about their communities and their economy. Spend 10 hours+ a year at meeting, donate and deliver a few leaflets. Instead of rely on illegal black money to kill people. Unionist Politican getting away with murder.

      The false, fake May concern about the poorer and lower paid is just nauseating. It makes people sick. May is targeting the sick and disabled,children etc. Making appalling decisions which affect people’s lives. Especially women and children who are being deliberately targeted for Tory cuts on the poorer and the tax cuts for the rich. The wealthiest wealth has increased 10 fold since 2010. Including multimillionaire May picking up £Millions in benefits. Multimillionaires collecting £Millions in public subsidies.

      Before 2010 £600Billion was being raised in the UK in tax revenues. Now seven years later £533Billion is being raised because of Tory tax cuts, especially for the wealthiest. £67Billion less in the UK.

      In Scotland the tax revenues has gone up £4Billion a year in the last two years. Now £58Billion a year. Pro rata more than the rest of the UK. The rest of the UK raises £44.5Billion pro ear and borrows and spends £100Billion more. £50Billion on the public sector, £50Billion on the private.

      Scotland loses £20Billion because of Westminster mismanagement. £4Billion in Oil revenues because of Westminster illegally high taxes. 40% since Jan 2016. £3Billion? tax evasion, £Billions in loan repayments on money not borrowed or spent in Scotland, £1Billion Trident, £1Billion lost no minimum pricing, Scotland can’t borrow to invest in the economy. £BillionS lost in EU renewable grants, investment CAP payments because of Westminster decisions and indecision. Mismanagement. Total over £20Billion. Westminster has taken £Billions out of Scotland. Lied about it and squandered it.

      Fracked Gas from the US is being imported and Gas from Norway. £Billions wasted on HS2, Hinkley Point and Trident. A total waste of money. It is the rail services in the North of England and Scotland which should be invested in to make rail journeys quicker. Journeys in the North of England and Scotland can take twice as long because of years of lack of investment (pro rata). The Scottish Gov are making investment in the railways. Westminster refused permission to take the rail services into public ownership in Scotland.

      The cuts in military vessels/spending might mean the Scottish Gov has more to invest in building ferries, supply boats, turbines and liners in the Ckyde. They are already upinvesting in major infrastructure projects to aid the economy.

      Westminster Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. £Trns in debt. Westminster/US has cause the worst migrate crisis in Europe since 11WW. Other European country’s have to pick up the pieces, costing £Trns. The EU has to deal with it.

      Now Brexit. The Tories trying to ruin the world economy again. May suppressing reports and fiddling the figures. Westminster are mainly a bunch of liars. Never has their been a bigger slavering, ignorant, incompetent than Davis. He lies so much he is red in the face and can’t even face the cameras. May is a dangerous psychopath. False and fake. It is nauseating. Fallon wants to start a war with Russia. Johnston is a public disgrace an embarrassment. Even criminal Murdoch, dismissed him as a liar. A criminal. Raised on EU money. Farague has been funding a Political Party on public money for years. Not declaring accounts. Illegal. Embezzling EU money.

      Criminals breaking the Law. Breaking International Law and Human rights. If the GE had been held a month later the Tories would have lost. Now on their way out. If the Treasury accounting system was used in public/private practice. It would be declared fraudulent and illegal. They get away with it.

      Tesco directors where fiddling the books. Taking £Millions in salaries They paid a fine and got away with it. More public money embezzlement. People are prosecuted by Tesco. BT wasted £Billions on an illegal Italian subsidy did not carry out exclusive broadband contracts efficiently. They were fined. Receiving £Billions of public money. Monopoly contracts.

      Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Unionist councils will not put up Council tax for the wealthiest who have done well out of Tory tax cuts. It is an ask when many of them spend and waste so much on useless grotesque monstrosities. No one wants. Cutting spending on education and essential services. The exact oppositee of what was intended.

      Another fine mess Westminster has got into. Par for the course. Destroying the world economy. Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence to take a better course. Like most European countries.

      Donate to Craig Murray. Don’t like him slagging off the SNP and very publicly denouncing his membership but anything against the Daily Mail. You find out who your friends are?

    158. heedtracker says:

      Great to see you back with so much info Nana. Like New York Times new Forth Bridge excellent report, who have very bizarrely got the Guardian, Scotland and their “pride.” Not exactly the actual tone that that crew goes about its Scotland region reportage with, certainly not on the new bridge either.

      “Still, as The Guardian newspaper noted with pride, “The Firth of Forth will be one of the few major waterways in the world spanned by bridges built in three consecutive centuries.” (The Forth Road Bridge was opened by the queen in 1964, while the Forth Rail Bridge, a wonder of the Victorian age, was constructed beginning in 1883.)”

    159. Nana says:

      @yesindyref2

      I admit to being loopy some of the time, have to be reading some of the stuff I come across, lol

      Need to put tissues on my shopping list

      http://archive.is/SNUtG

    160. McDuff says:

      Rock 11.21
      Spot on.

      They will be swapping cake recipes next.
      And I have a message for Alex Salmond, I am not interested in EFTA at the moment I want independence first then we can talk about EFTA and membership of the EU.
      Independence is getting lost in the fog.

    161. Nana says:

      Morning Heedtracker

      something else you won’t see in the guardian

      ShashiTharoor on British Empire and India.
      Video here
      https://twitter.com/TheMurdochTimes/status/904992137804111873

      Part 1 of a new investigation into the resurgence of Nazis, commencing with a global overview. J J Patrick writes
      https://www.byline.com/column/67/article/1814

    162. Highland Wifie says:

      Great links thank you Nana.
      The one on Tory MPs using taxpayers money to fund the European Research Group(ERG) made me sit up. After watching MP Suella Fernandes squirming on Channel 4 news last night under questioning about why they will not reveal who is on the group despite using taxpayers money to fund them, I was grateful for the information.
      The way this group are operating shows the casual disregard the tories have for democracy and the way in which they think it’s ok to use our money to further their own ends. Disgusts me.

    163. Marie Clark says:

      Welcome back Nana and thank you for the links. Need to go and get a cup of tea and take time to read them.

      Smallaxe held the fort for you in great stile, but I understand that he’s not too well at the moment. I hope that he’ll be well enough to came back to us soon.

    164. heedtracker says:

      something else you won’t see in the guardian

      Wow Nana, that’s a staggering summation of India the British Colony, combined with Nic Robison’s BBC r4 vote tory Today show right now. We are lied to by the beeb in particular on an colossal and industrial scale. For good tory reason though. Where has 5 decades of not Scots oil and gas revenue gone, for UKOK example.

    165. Petra says:

      Thanks for the links Nana. Just finished reading through them to find that many cover the sneaky tricks (ERC money / rigging Patliament etc) being employed by T May and the Brexiteers to further undermine democracy. There’s no holds barred with them. Brazen or what! The Kevin Hague link is a must read and Peter Grant’s final comments are brilliant “I’ll give the Minister one red line from the Sovereign people of Scotland. Our Sovereignty is not for sale. It’s not for sale today, at any time in the future or at any price.”

      Meanwhile the BBC continues to promote UK coastal holidays, LOL. Morecambe today. Taking up the best part of the news / Breakfast programme. A sign of things to come when we can’t afford to go abroad and no one from abroad wants to visit England.

      BBC Scotland (with the girl with the sing-song voice) starts with the usual Scottish doom and gloom figures of the rise in the numbers of Scottish children being reported to the PF re. sexual offences, followed by Wendy Alexander talking about some civil servants at Whitehall not wanting to devolve powers to the Scottish Parliament 20 years ago, a Rosythe shipbuilding con and a notice of the phone in at 9:00am to discuss 20% of Scottish teachers planning to leave the profession. You couldnae make it up.

    166. Les Wilson says:

      Spain/Catalonia

      “Spain’s constitutional court has previously ruled that a referendum can only be called with the approval of the central authorities. But Puigdemont’s pro-independence coalition claims that the universal right to self-determination overrules Spain’s laws.”

      Maybe food for thought, for us.

    167. Brian Powell says:

      Petra

      I wonder where those 20% of teachers are going to go? Did they say? With Brexit coming there are only so many middle-class alternative jobs to go to.

    168. Nana says:

      Good morning Highland Wifie, I avoid the tv news [bad for my BP] but it doesn’t surprise me the Tory didn’t reveal who these people are. Goodness me imagine the voters wanting to know where their money is going, how dare we ask. Tory dictatorship in the making.

      Morning Marie,
      Smallaxe was taken into hospital for a transfusion. However he tells me he has escaped so hopefully back with us soon.

    169. Petra says:

      So Nana the links go on. Brilliant! Ruth Davidson has done more U-turns on Brexit than a corkscrew. From being catastrophic, to supporting May’s Brexit, to condemning it / her last week to supporting May again.

      And the Shashi Tharoor video is fantastic. Maybe we should invite him to Scotland? I just loved the look of consternation on the questioners face. Indian chap? Reminding me that it’s not just Scots that have been conned by Westminster. They’ve managed to cultivate mushrooms all over the world including brainwashing everyone with the Great Churchillian myth.

    170. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      colin alexander at 12.57 am

      What a completely silly post. So parliaments into which we elect our chosen representatives to take decisions are not “real democracy.”

      The SNP, of course,are the only party to have adopted OMOV which means that every member gets to vote for which candidates we choose.

    171. wull2 says:

      New people, don’t worry about spelling in your post, this is not a classroom run by bullies, we leave correctness to the so called professionals in the media to tell us half truths, lies and where to put our commas.
      I would rather get you views.
      This was brought to you by a YES supporter.

    172. Craig Murray says:

      May I think here the many hundreds of Wings supporters who have donated to my defence fund? I am really touched. We have £63,000 so far, which will enable me to fund a proper defence effort in court. If any Winger down South can be at the High Court in London on 7 November, because I doubt we will see a fair report of what happens from the BBC or Guardian…

    173. Petra says:

      @ Brian at 8:55am ….. “I wonder where those 20% of teachers are going to go? Did they say?”

      No mention Brian. Just a quick notice of the phone in. It may even include teachers due to retire. I don’t know. All I do know is that it’s a constant drip, drip, drip of bad news for Scotland to the point that someone (Professor John Robertson and medical colleagues?) should carry out some research to ascertain how this (BBC, STV) impacts on people’s mental health. Carry out some type of brain monitoring of the person before, during and after watching the news and then when the results are revealed we could all sue them, LOL.

    174. Ken500 says:

      London has hundred of Bridges metres apart. Canary Wharf and Tilbury Docks etc All build on embezzled non declared, Oil revenues. ‘Loads of money’ Bankers. A false economy. Banking leverage cut from 25% (worldwide) to 13%. Lack of capital reserves. Libor affecting the world economy being manipulated illegally by King and Darling etc and covered up.

      Scotland’s Block Grant was cut and the economy scorched by the Tories and Thatcher. Unemployment and poverty was much higher in Scotland. Neil made broadcasts and reports about people in Scotland implying feckless, drunken and lazy. Lack of productivity. Made it up. Still available, Thatcher and her cronies lied about it. Still at it.

      Scottish invention shaped the modern world. Glasgow an engineering power house. Edinburgh the seat of worldwide education and medicine. A financial centre. Scotland one of the first countries to have an tertiary education system. Scottish invention shaped the modern world. TV, wireless, telecommunication. Led into the internet. Advances in science and medicine. The ‘enlightenment’ philosophers shaped the modern world.

      Thank goodness for the SNP Gov standing up fur Scotland, Dread to think what Scotland would be like without them.

      Alex Salmond did more for the NE in five years than the Unionists did in fifty. The AWPR waited for over thirty years, the harbour expansion, the wind turbine project in the Bay, the expansion of the airport, the golf/sporting projects. All down to Alex Salmond. Will ye no come back again. 6000 voters did not turn out. It was raining? Voters remorse. They should turn out the next time Some people never learn.

      Wait until the Tory voters rural schools are shut. Their services cut, because the unionist council (millionaire landowners) will not put up the Council tax for the wealthiest who have done well out of Tory tax cuts. The unionists sat and watched while £Billions of Oil revenues went south and the NE was underfunded. No capital payment, despite growth. The only City in Europe without a by pass road, Chronic traffic chaos, damaging the economy. The unionists did managed to get investment in the overnight steeper, To benefit their first class public money funded journeys. Useless incompetents.

      Labour dominated Cosla underfunded the NE councils. 30% less of all other councils for over thirty years. The SNP have tried to equal it year by year. The unionists have overspent on grotesque monstrosity. No one wanted. Muse £200Million. £300Million on a white elephant conference centre. Subsisted with public money. The present one £26Million used on average once a month. Shut the Art Gallery and venues for years, £5Million+ for a hub to store paintings. They are rearranging council meetings for two job Tories, to keep them in power. A LibDem became an Independent to facitate a unionist council. Despite the SNP being the biggest Party which governs with efficient and competence given the opportunity. In LibDem coalition before. After Labour left the City in £Billions of debt, That was sorted out. Now they have done it again. £1,2Billion+ Dishonesty.

      Multimillionaire farmers politicans getting £hundred/thousands in non declared subsidies. Enough is never enough. Pleading poverty. Getting in on the list. Taking CAP payments from poorer farmers, Cutting education and essential service. Millionaire fishermen who overfished the seas. They would not use bigger nets and threw back dead fish for years.. Lying about subsidies. Pleading poverty. Giving false figures.The major markets are in the EU. The workers come from the EU/world.

      Youngsters do not want to go into fishing because of the poor conditions. They would rather go to the Oil and other industry.Rigs and supply boats for more regular time off. When the Euro went down they were bailed out with public money. Fish market expansion with EU Grants. Exclusuve fishing rights wil gain £200Million. When mutual agreements can easily be made, with more Scottish representation. Scotland will lose £8Billion coming out of the EU. Much more.

      Blaming the SNP for 40 years of unionist policies, The SNP actually disagreed. Scottish Gov 2000. Minority SNP Gov 2007. The Scottish Gov should publish the CAP payments made in the interest of transparency. Many farmers and fishermen, the enlightened ones, support the SNP and donate, They want to regenerate and improve their industry with innovation. Worth £Billions in Scotland. Food and drink industry bring in £Billions to Scotland.

    175. heedtracker says:

      Ofcourse he is. You’d think WW2 taught nazis in Germany, UK, US, some fundamentals.

      Graun

      Nigel Farage

      Nigel Farage to address far-right rally in Germany

      Former Ukip leader was invited to speak at event held by AfD party by the granddaughter of Hitler’s finance minister
      MEP and former UKIP leader, Nigel Farage
      Farage will address the rally in a renaissance fortress in Berlin. Photograph: Daniel Leal-Olivas/AFP/Getty Images

      Philip Oltermann in Berlin
      @philipoltermann
      Thursday 7 September 2017 16.34 BST

    176. Robert Peffers says:

      @ronnie anderson says: 8 September, 2017 at 12:05 am:

      “I whole heartedly agree with your sentiments , with the exception to the Republic part of your post that i fear will take a bit longer 15/20 yrs longer . It will take roughly 10 yrs for Scotland & the People to adjust to Independence & i hope we have a stable SNP gov during those years.

      Ah! Ronnie, There is actually no disagreement between us. As Einstein’s theory of relativity states time is relative and when you get to my age, and you still have a good memory, 10 years is a relatively short period of time.

      However, I don’t think it will be as long as 10 years when you have removed such as the BBC and the other anti-Scottish mass media from the equation.

      Just as an example Radio Jockland ,this very a.m. has, as its phone-in subject, “A BBC enquiry finds there is a 40% of teachers wishing to leave the teaching profession and what do the phone in victims thinks is the cause of this mass wish to, “Quit the profession”.

      For starters a main reason for teachers wanting to bail out is the negativity and abusiveness of the YoonYoonists, the Westminster Establishment propaganda of the anti-Scottish media. In particular the Westminster funded BBC campaigns to rubbish the great work the teachers do on a daily basis that paints the teaching profession, like anything else that is uniquely Scottish.

      There is a very similar problem with the SNHS. Nurses, GPs Hospitals, all are portrayed as crap. Even our new Bridge is portrayed by the Westminster Establishment propaganda as crap.

      Yet the truth of the matter is that the Scottish Education system, the SNHS, and the Scottish parliament are head and shoulders above their English equivalents.

      Not only that but, in spite of the vast majority of the people of Scotland finding that the Scottish versions of these professions are really wonderful and efficient services the propaganda shite sticks and the people in the Scottish services feel under-valued, under-paid and under-appreciated.

      The truth and the myth are two quite different matters.

      Garry and Hayley are giving Scotland’s teachers the BBC’s Westminster mantra of, “Scotland is shite”, big licks as I type this.

      The ultimate truth is that the only really shite, “uniquely Scottish”, version of a United Kingdom profession is the BBC and other Scottish medias.

    177. Meg merrilees says:

      Craig Murray

      “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”

      Haudfast.

    178. Nana says:

      @Petra

      Shashi Tharoor is very impressive, gets the facts and figures out in a no nonsense fashion. Doesn’t beat his chest about past atrocities, just makes his points calmly. I like him.

      Cultivating mushrooms [I like it] has been an effective tool for the establishment, muckspreading all around the world. The internet has put a spoke in their barrow wheel and that’s why they want control over what we see. http://archive.is/wbvd1

    179. heedtracker says:

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933

      Vile sep facebook meme doing the rounds, in conjunction with planet toryboy’s Great Repeal Bill. This really could be the end of Scottish devo completely, for a generation.

      UDI trigger finger twitchy:D

    180. Capella says:

      Great links Nana – glad you’re back It’s taken me an hour already to get through the first few.

      @ Craig Murray – glad the fund is rising quickly. It’s scandalous that our bloggers are under attack in this very British way.

    181. Breastplate says:

      I wish you all the best Craig and I am happy, like many others, to share your financial burden in this matter.

    182. Ken500 says:

      The 40% of teachers lies. When teachers are surveyed they love their job. Surveyed of 5,000 teachers where and how? In Scotland they are better qualified and better paid. Now to be increased. Soon?

      The majority of teachers love their jobs. Most teachers are brilliant at their jobs. They want bureaucratic changes. They are coming. Go into any school they are really well run with dedicated teachers, Totally concerned for the pupils welfare. Teachers get no additional needs training. Should be put in place in training. It is changing. The unionist/journalists forget parents visit schools and grandparents pick up their grandchildren. They see what is going on. Unlike the out of touch unionist/journalists. Same with the NHS. People use it every day. They know and value how good it can be, There can be improvements. Being implemented.

      Teaching colleges/uni are never short of applications. It was a once a joke when few applicants got through. If you could speak Gaelic and play the piano you were through. That was when the unionists were in charge. They are now refusing to put up council tax for wealthiest who have done well out of Tory tax cuts overall. They are cutting education and essential services. Blowing money on grotesque projects. No one wants. Then pleading poverty. Just to cause more trouble. It is often at unionist council level the changes are not being carried out and brought about, Deliberately? Or just useless.

    183. Tinto Chiel says:

      Nana: good to see you back but caa canny.

      Have booked you into the St Andrew’s Halls next week again for your world-famous rendition of The Goldberg Variations.

      I’ll bring my kazoo.

      Hallo too to budwiser. Just because folk don’t reply doesn’t mean they ignore you, as some have said.

      Well, that’s what I tell myself anyway…

      You get used to it.

    184. Graeme says:

      Good luck Craig

    185. Nana says:

      Good morning Capella, remember you can always save a few for dull days. Besides reading links keeps you from tackling the ironing pile. This I know from experience, lol and I’m always on the lookout for volunteers.
      Don’t all rush at once!

    186. ronnie anderson says:

      from Nana’s link 8.02

      (At the age of 38, she has an “intellectual curiosity” ) Ruth Davidson if thats what passes as a intellectual im applying for Mensa membership .

      Nice to see U back Nana , if your speaking with Smallaxe give him my regards . X

    187. heedtracker says:

      Nana says:
      8 September, 2017 at 9:39 am
      One more link for now

      That’s another staggering blog bookmarked Nana. Thanks!

      http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/

      “What worries me is that unionists might think that what Kevin has to say has merit when firstly it ignores the technical accounting and economic flaws of GERS and secondly places emphasis on dogma rather than anything to do with decision making on the future economic policy that any Scottish government, including a unionist led one if that were to happen, would have to make.

      And that’s what’s really worrying about his position and the enthusiasm some show for publishing it. What it denies is the ability of Scottish people, of whatever their political persuasion, to decide.”

    188. Nana says:

      Morning Tinto, I’m doing my exercises right now. You’d better have a lot of puff as I’m counting on you to carry my instruments of torture.

    189. Capella says:

      @ Nana – that Sashi Tharoor video is a cracker. Looks like I’m going to have to order another book from amazon. Here’s the link again for anyone who missed it – 7 mins:
      https://twitter.com/TheMurdochTimes/status/904992137804111873

      Brightens up an otherwise dull and rainy day.

    190. Nana says:

      Morning Ronnie, will do. He’s got his orders to take it easy or else.

    191. ronnie anderson says:

      Re Bell Pottinger ( HoL ) 7 Sept PR companies are only removed from the register of lobbyists if they stop lobbying . Like all Bills/Acts/Laws passing through Westminster , they have inbuilt Loopholes.

    192. Ken500 says:

      Stop listening /viewing the BBC or any others that offend. No listeners/viewer. No programmes. Simple. Check out, then check out. Stop scratching the sore. Get rid of SKy. Hit them in the pocket. No revenues. A new media is/will emerge. Or use the internet.

      Useless incompetent journalists can’t google a few facts. It takes 10mins. Lazy, incompetent, useless or deliberate. An alternative is developing. To counter the lies. The National, SNP etc. Westmibster will not get away with it. The Tories are on the way out. Soon will be gone after all the hurt they have done. Scotland is taking another path. FFA/Independence. Just keep on voting SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. There is a better way. After years of lies and incompetence.

    193. Ken500 says:

      Bell Pottinger are bankrupt, No one will buy them/take over Lost all their customers. No revenues. Lord Bell. Thatcher’s mate. Unelected Rothschild formulated the Poll tax. Brought the Tories down.

      On the internet, Google it.

    194. Alba 46 says:

      Todays National highlights that the English treasury will get another 900 million barrels of oil taxes if oil companies can improve their operations.That should please all the no voters. This is what happens when you sub contract Scottish democracy to a foreign government.

      For Gods sake wake up Scotland!

    195. Nana says:

      @Capella

      Inglorious Empire / What the British Did to India £14.91 on ebay
      £17.00 on Amazon

    196. Capella says:

      @ Conan the Librarian – another great link with such a sad story and a scary 7 min video at the end. Shows the cruel nature of far right British nationalism and American nazism.

      https://randompublicjournal.com/2017/09/08/trolling-wee-brave-scottish-unionism-at-its-lowest/

      Will never get the ironing done today at this rate.

    197. Undeadshuan says:

      @Ken500
      Not all teachers are happy in their place of work.

      This is down to lack of support due to poor school management by head teachers and needs to be addressed.
      Just like management of nhs boards.

    198. Ken500 says:

      Ash? A barrister has offered Craig Murray support. Won other cases. Check out the website. Donate

    199. schrodingers cat says:

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/waving-goodbye/

      schrodingers cat says:
      30 August, 2017 at 2:17 pm
      the eu has already said that an indy scotland would need to apply as a new nation under article 49.

      in practice, scotland would be accepted very very quickly, (nb. there isnt a cue) but may still need a 2 year period in the trm before being accepted.

      scotland is leaving the eu eitherway
      best we can do is to tie efta/eea membership to a yes vote in indyref2 with the promise of another euref once independent.

      nb, only 3 options required on euref ballot paper.
      1. status quo, (remain as efta/eea member)
      2. swedish type eu membership, ie keep our own currency
      3. full eu membership and adopt the euro.
      regardless of which, eu membership is a decision for after we are independent.
      focus on indyref2 for now

      —————————————

      Robert J. Sutherland says:
      30 August, 2017 at 2:53 pm
      schrodingers cat @ 14:17,
      There you go again. The EU situation is still developing, with who knows what solutions that may be offered to keep an independent Scotland on board, and here you are back once again peddling your hoary old EEA/EFTA line. For someone who claimed to be in the SNP, you don’t seem to have any notion that the party’s affirmed policy is for Scotland to be in – and stay in – the EU. Period.
      It’s this kind of wanton kite-flying from people in the SNP whose only effect is to make ordinary people confused and demoralised. Mixed messages that just have to stop.
      Please stop selling a future, and dubious multi-question referenda of your own devising, that may never happen and instead focus on the bloody day job. An independence referendum. No more, no less.
      ———————————

      Today salmond called for efta to be part of indyref2, (google it robert)

      There he goes again! peddling his hoary old EEA/EFTA line. Is salmond still claiming to be in the snp? Or doesn’t he have any notion that the party’s affirmed policy is for Scotland to be in – and stay in – the EU. Period.?

      Within the SNP, we encourage discussion and these are the current topics

      1. We are presently being dragged out of the EU against our will, how do we stop it.
      2. when is the best time to hold indyref2, before or after the uk leaves?
      3. Regardless of when we hold indyref2, It is clear from the EU that an indy scotland will need to join as a new country under article 49, albeit, a very speedy acceptance would be assured.
      4. Do we tie indyref2 into an automatic application by the Scottish Government to
      a. Join the eu as full member, including euro
      b. Join the eu as a member but without the euro, ie, launch a scottish pound.
      c. Join EFTA/EEA membership
      d. Join nothing, as seems to be your option

      Currently, the prevailing idea is to tie indyref2 to automatic application to EFTA/EEA, as per alex Salmond and others, including myself.
      This would leave the requirement for the issue of the EU in an indy scotland being left unsettled and why such a “dubious multi-question referenda of my own devising” may be required at a later date. Such musings are called “focusing on the bloody day job” and I believe, valid topics for discussion on wings

    200. Macart says:

      @Nana

      Good to see you Nana. Smallaxe kept us up to speed. Pass on best wishes if you can.

      Hoping you’re feeling better yourself. 🙂

    201. Robert Peffers says:

      colin alexander says: 8 September, 2017 at 12:57 am:

      “Re the SNP: Why is party policy decided by delegates? Why not “one member = one vote”, you know, like real democracy?”

      That above statement is a typical example of Colin Alexander’s idiocy. Colin is rather obviously rather challenged by the English language term, “Delegated”. The poor lad doesn’t know what delegated means. I quote from my on-line dictionary:-


      delegate – to entrust, a task or responsibility, to another person, typically one who is less senior than oneself.

      To send or authorize (someone) to do something as a representative.

      synonyms: authorize, commission, depute, appoint, nominate, mandate, empower, charge, choose, designate, elect

      Unlike Colin’s political loyalty to a party that has turned many things to be the reverse of what they really are. the SNP delegates behave as delegates and not as masters who tell the members what they must do and think.

      Like the example I quoted yesterday, (the idiotic misuse of the term, “Point of Order”). A delegate must represent those who delegate, “Their delegate”.

      Every Unionist Party has their leadership telling their membership what to do while the SNP is the opposite where the rank & file tell their elected representatives what to do.

      Colin, and his compatriots, do not understand that they are the slaves and their elected representatives are the masters and that is the exact opposite of how it is supposed to work.

      Government is supposed to do what the electorate elect them to do – not for the government to tell the electorate what the government wants them to do.

      As I have repeatedly pointed out, under English law, the Westminster Government are legally delegated to represent the Sovereign Monarchy as per the English Kingdom’s, “Glorious Revolution”. i.e The three country Kingdom of England is legally a, “Constitutional Monarchy”, in which the Monarch remains as legally sovereign but legally delegates the monarch’s sovereign powers to the Parliament of England but there has not been an, (elected as such), parliament of England since the last day of April 1707.

      Under Scots law the monarch is not legally sovereign and thus the Scottish MPs at Westminster are delegated to do what the electorate tell them to do.

      So Colin is in the strange position of claiming to support Scottish independence while believing that the Westminster Parliament is sovereign. You cannot equate the two things together as they are fundamentally opposites.

      In fact this is quite clearly stated in the Treaty of Union, in particular in Article of Union No.19:-

      “THAT the Court of Session, or Colledge of Justice, do after the Union, and notwithstanding thereof, remain in all time coming within Scotland, as it is now constituted by the Laws of that Kingdom, and with the same Authority and Privileges as before the Union, subject nevertheless to such Regulations for the better Administration of Justice, as shall be made by the Parliament of Great Britain; and that hereafter none shall be named by Her Majesty, or her royal Successors, to be ordinary Lords of Session but such who have served in the Colledge of Justice as Advocates, or principal Clerks of Session for the Space of five Years; or as Writers to the Signet for the Space of ten Years, with this Provision, That no Writer to the Signet be capable to be admitted a Lord of the Session, unless he undergo a private and publick Tryal on the Civil Law, before the Faculty of Advocates and be found by them qualified for the said Office, two Years before he be named to be a Lord of the Session; yet to as the Qualifications made, or to be made, for capacitating Persons to be named ordinary Lords of Session, may be altered by the Parliament of Great Britain. And that the Court of Justiciary do also after the Union, and notwithstanding thereof, remain in all time coming within Scotland, as it is now constituted by the Laws of that Kingdom, and with the same Authority and Privileges as before the Union, subject nevertheless to such Regulations as shall be made by the Parliament of Great Britain, and without Prejudice of other Rights of Justiciary; and that all Admiralty Jurisdictions be under the Lord High Admirall or Commissioners for the Admiralty of Great Britain for the time being, and that the Court of Admiralty now established in Scotland be continued, and that all Reviews, Reductions, or Suspensions of the Sentences in Maritime Cases, competent to the Jurisdiction of that Court, remain in the same Manner after the Union, as now in Scotland, until the Parliament of Great Britain shall make such Regulations and Alterations, as shall be judged expedient for the whole United Kingdom, so as there be always continued in Scotland a Court of Admiralty, such as in England, for Determination of all Maritime Cases relating to private Rights in Scotland competent to the Jurisdiction of the Admiralty Court, subject nevertheless to such Regulations and Alterations as shall be thought proper to be made by the Parliament of Great Britain; and that the Heritable Rights of Admiralty and Vice-Admiralties in Scotland be reserved to the respective Proprietors as Rights of Property, subject nevertheless, as to the Manner of exercising such heritable Rights, to such Regulations and Alterations, as shall be thought proper to be made by the Parliament of Great Britain; and that all other Courts now in being within the Kingdom of Scotland do remain, but subject to Alterations by the Parliament of Great Britain; and that all inferior Courts within the said Limits do remain subordinate, as they are now, to the supreme Courts of Justice within the same, in all time coming; and that no Causes in Scotland be cognoscible by the Courts of Chancery, Queens-Bench, Common-Pleas, or any other Court in Westminster-hall; and that the said Courts, or any other of the like Nature, after the Union, shall have no Power to cognosce, review, or alter the Acts or Sentences of the Judicatures within Scotland, or stop the Execution of the same; and that there be a Court of Exchequer in Scotland after the Union, for deciding Questions concerning the Revenues of Customs and Excises there, having the same Power and Authority in such Cases, as the Court of Exchequer has in England; and that the said Court of Exchequer in Scotland have Power of passing Signatures, Gifts, Tutories, and in other Things, as the Court of Exchequer at present in Scotland hath; and that the Court of Exchequer that now is in Scotland do remain, until a new Court of Exchequer be settled by the Parliament of Great Britain in Scotland after the Union; and that after the Union, the Queen’s Majesty, and her royal Successors, may continue a Privy Council in Scotland, for preserving of publick Peace and Order, until the Parliament of Great Britain shall think fit to alter it, or establish any other effectual method for that end.”

      The above is the text of both Acts of Union and is almost word for word the text of the Treaty of Union. Yet Westminster has consistently ignored the Treaty that is essentially its own birth certificate.

    202. Ken500 says:

      In surveys most teachers are happy in their job. The want bureaucratic changes. They are coming. There is a surplus of applicants. It is difficult to make the grade. There are shortages and too big class sizes. This is down to local administration. In most cases. Totally. Unionists councils that cut the budget. Spend on other projects. Instead of education and essential services, That is happening in many areas. Build houses without implementing facilities. Schools etc. Voters are ignorant. Voters choices of admistration. Then corrupted,

    203. Dr Jim says:

      We did a survey and that survey said:

      And that’s the problem with surveys isn’t it, they all say what the purpose of the survey really wants them to say which is, Some folk are no happy aboot something and they’d rather do something else for more money and less work thank you very much, now let’s have a discussion about the ramifications of the momentous survey and use the inflammatory results of that discussion to create political noise about the waste of time and money survey that we already knew the answer to

      Today it’s teachers

      Do bin men, what’s the betting the same results appear, or how about picking just any job on the planet to find out if everything’s jolly in everybody’s jobs all the time

      The wool used in the pulling over the eyes of the gullible must be the only thing in endless supply, so maybe that’s a good job to be in

      Unless the sheep aren’t happy

    204. Fionan says:

      Hamish100 maybe you have some cognitive deficiency then, if you read my comment but still fail to understand the clearly stated reason why I ‘pick’ these specific countries to boycott.

      I ‘pick’ these countries to boycott, and not Russia, S.America etc for the simple reason that I have not come across any evidence of the extreme, daily, large scale unspeakable brutality towards people’s beloved family pets stolen specifically for that purpose of sadistic perversions.

      Also for our ex-racing greyhounds, a breed which I love dearly and have been involved with for decades due to the welfare issues which are not tackled by the organisations such as SSPCA and police which are supposed to uphold our welfare laws, but fail to do so. Resulting in these sensitive, loving animals being exported to China where no welfare laws apply to any animals including the human animal.

      The boycott by myself and many others is simply one of our ways of trying to give a voice to the voiceless in the face of this extreme human sadism. It is sad that so many turn their faces away because they rather hide in their comfortable little bubbles rather than acknowledge the abuse – that very same characteristic of the ‘ProudScotButs’which denied us independence in 2014 and has led us now to the brink of the Brexit disaster.

      I take it from your snideness that you are one of these andy capp types who get your kicks from watching the dogs suffer and die on the race tracks, with the survivors and poor racers being sent to Hell in China.

      Nonetheless, I and other caring people who are disgusted and distressed at seeing dogs screaming as they are blowtorched for fun and boiled alive just to increase some little dick’s misplaced sense of ‘virility’ may boycott these sickos if we please – we are free to do so.

      Meantime you are free to worship some bridge before you toddle off to the bookies to support welfare abuses.

      And I am curious as to why my question wasn’t answered re the topic of the post – was Hamish made in China? because if so, I am happy to do without Chris’s book of wonderful cartoons and Hamish. However I fear the lack of an answer means Hamish was indeed made in the Chinese or Korean sweatshops by little children 🙁

      I hope our new Scotland will be a kinder and more caring country. ‘the mark of the civilisation of a country and its moral progress lies in the way it treats its animals’ M Ghandi

    205. Nana says:

      Morning Macart

      Good to know my apprentice was on the job, I’m sure he will be back soon.

      I’m ok Sam, tried to train my wee dug to type [save my wrists] but the muddy paw prints are mighty hard to clean off the keyboard!

      This really is the last link for today

      http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/blow-for-tories-in-fortissat-and.html

    206. Ken500 says:

      The SNP is being pragmatic. To find a solution to something not of their making. They usually do. The best for Scotland. That is why they are in power. Keeping in the single market and custom Union with free movement is a diplomatic solution That is what good administrations do. A compromise. It would be easy to regain full membership in the future. Of course the SNP support full membership. The Scottish voters voted for that, but unfortunately they also voted No to Independence. They were lied to by the Tories. It is the Tory mess. Then there can be another vote Indy vote. There is a mandate. The voters can decide.

      The situation is still in going. Another IndyRef can still come out of it soon, One step at a time, as it is they will not vote for the Repeal Act. The situation is on going. The Tories could be gone soon. Just sit back and watch the mess unfolding. Keep the heid and stop squabbling. Be prepared.

    207. Ken500 says:

      You can get the book without the lion. It is cheaper. Few people will get the lion. Or if there is a problem just donate £60 to a Chinese charity. One of the wealthiest economies in the world. Improving.

    208. gordoz says:

      Well said – @ Ken500 10.48am

      Best post on Wings for at least 2 yrs (by anyone).

      Doesn’t always need to be so verbose folks – its ruining wings and turning readers off / as is engagement with the persistent troll types. 🙂

    209. Petra says:

      @ Nana at 9:36am ….. “They want control over what we see.”

      It’s truly frightening Nana. They want control over what we see whilst planning to gag us at the same time. Reminds me of the three monkeys in reverse – see, hear and speak no truth. More than anything this is, all that’s going on, terrifying because there’s no political party strong enough, or willing enough, at Westminster to do anything about the dramatic and escalating race into the dictatorship pit. Add to that having a MSM that’s suppressing the facts and keeping the Scots in the dark.

      Then you read about what’s been going on with DefiAye. Horrendous. Maybe someone should pass the story on to JKR to find out what she makes of it? Anyway sending all my love and best wishes to her. DefiAye that is XX

      Thanks for the Richard Murphy link too and thank God for him is all I can say, especially at this time in our history. Does anyone else on here wonder why no one has analysed GERS before now? Not one Scottish economist other than the Cuthberts [as far as I know] and even then not to the same extent. He’s also exposing the Fraser of Allander crew. Big time. If I were them, such as Prof Roy, I’d be hanging my head in shame right now.

      I’ve also been trying to get my head around T May planning to use HenryV111 legislation to push through changes undemocratically. How can that work when he and his laws predated the ‘Union’ of 1707? How can they be used in relation to Scotland? Is this legal? Maybe someone like Robert P could enlighten me?

      Smallaxe sending all my love and best wishes to you too XX

    210. colin alexander says:

      Scottish Govt: New Social Security Bill “[This] bill creates offences which do not require criminal intent on the part of the accused. It criminalises behaviour or conduct which is careless or negligent rather than intentionally dishonest.

      “Additionally the safeguard of a requirement for proof that benefits would have been affected is absent. In our view such an approach… and the level of the potential penalties is unduly punitive”.

      The FM forgot to put this bit in the rousing speech, so she could get loud cheers from Ruth The Mooth:

      We will further criminalise the poorest and most downtrodden in society, putting the burden on the poor to prove their innocence, with harsher anti-poor people laws than the Tories have in England.

      Is this the SNP’s example of how we can be different and “better” in Scotland?

      Another sign of an SNP that’s lost touch with the poorer people who voted them into power. Another nail in the coffin of the SNP and unfortunately we were daft enough to put all out indy eggs in the SNP basket.

    211. Macart says:

      @Nana

      LOL 😀

      Aye. My wee ginger kitten does something similar, though the print left has nothing to do with paws. 😉

    212. heedtracker says:

      Another nail in the coffin of the SNP and unfortunately we were daft enough to put all out indy eggs in the SNP basket.”

      That’s a lot better Colin A, good honest anti SNP unionist attack. You dropped your silly pretence, was that so hard?

    213. schrodingers cat says:

      Ken500 says:
      The SNP is being pragmatic. To find a solution to something not of their making. They usually do. The best for Scotland. That is why they are in power. Keeping in the single market and custom Union with free movement is a diplomatic solution

      ——————-

      except the question is…
      do we tie indyref2 to an automatic application to join EFTA or not?

      i say yes, so does salmond.
      it is the winning ticket if we get pulled out of the single market as looks very likely at the moment

    214. schrodingers cat says:

      Petra says:
      8 September, 2017 at 11:00 am

      I’ve also been trying to get my head around T May planning to use HenryV111 legislation to push through changes undemocratically. How can that work when he and his laws predated the ‘Union’ of 1707? How can they be used in relation to Scotland? Is this legal? Maybe someone like Robert P could enlighten me?

      can I add to that, the repeal bill covers areas, education, religion, law etc which were devolved by the treaty of the union itself, is this repeal bill over ruling the foundations of the union?

    215. heedtracker says:

      Void of what it means for Holyrood and devo but pretty good attempt to explain,

      http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/great-repeal-bill-eu-withdrawal-democracy-rights-liam-fox-deregulation-a7934091.html

    216. jfngw says:

      I see the National has a story about the rise of the .scot domain. What it didn’t mention was how expensive it is compared to the other domains used by UK areas.

      .uk £13.19/year
      .wales £17.99/year
      .scot £49.99

      This is using the pricing from one provider but I believe the price difference is similar elsewhere. Be interested why the scot one is to be the most expensive.

    217. wull2 says:

      Don’t burn yourself out. Just keep the fire burning and it will get bigger by feeding it mow and then, it will soon be out of their control.

    218. Breastplate says:

      Colin, the SNP basket is the only one all the Indy eggs can fit in.
      We can all be critical of the SNP (I have on a number of occasions concerning Indyref2 strategy) but your constant nitpicking is extremely irritating and mostly irrelevant to the Indy cause.
      Please keep your whinging until after independence, pretty please with sugar on top.

    219. Ken500 says:

      IndyRef2 stand alone as the mandate. There is no need for complications.

      The Tories are tying themselves in knots. Not long now. They could not make a bigger mess. The banking crash and now this. Brexit.

      Just hang in just SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Scotland is already on a different path. More progressive and prosperous.

    220. Flower of Scotland says:

      @Craig Murray.

      I was very happy to contribute to your crowdfunder and wish you all the best.

      So that’s the Rev, Andy Whiteman and now Craig Murray. “They” are going after Indy bloggers now. Who next?

    221. Breastplate says:

      Schrödinger’s cat,
      I’m a great admirer of Alex Salmond and his more combative nature when it comes to independence and could be quite easily convinced on the merits of EFTA but I personally think that a stand alone Indyref2 with a promise of a further referendum following independence on which particular relationship we have with Europe.
      I think then people could galvanise around a Yes vote.

      It is my honest opinion and I also accept I could be wrong, whatever gets us over the finishing line works for me.

    222. Vestas says:

      @ jfngw 12:02 pm :

      “I see the National has a story about the rise of the .scot domain. What it didn’t mention was how expensive it is compared to the other domains used by UK areas.

      .uk £13.19/year
      .wales £17.99/year
      .scot £49.99

      This is using the pricing from one provider but I believe the price difference is similar elsewhere. Be interested why the scot one is to be the most expensive.”

      Depends is the answer. I pay £19.99 for a .scot domain with email but no web hosting. I certainly don’t pay £13.19 for .uk domains either – £8.99 was the last bill.

      There is still a discrepancy but its nowhere near as large as suggested….

    223. Ken500 says:

      @ .scot. The most sort after? Supply and demand?

    224. ScotsRenewables says:

      The .scot domain price is a rip-off.

      I was very enthusiastic at first and encouraged our web design clients to use it, but the price really can’t be justified.

      Shame, it would be good to see it more widely used.

    225. Ken500 says:

      The hurt and harm the Tory/Unionists are causing. It really is despicable. No wonder people have mental heaith issues. They are causing them. ‘Pycho bastards’. Their own description. It makes people so annoyed and angry. May will be gone before long. Davidson next?

    226. jfngw says:

      @Vesta

      Not sure what you are inferring but these are the costs per domain on the 1and1 website. You can get a .scot for £19.99+vat for first year, it then increases to £39.99+vat for subsequent years. It does not include any email, but a redirection facility.

      Which company provides domain name + email for £19.99 as the ones I have looked at using dotscot.net have all been over £40 when vat is included.

    227. schrodingers cat says:

      Breastplate

      a perfectly valid position.
      i would point out that no referendum is ever “stand alone” eg, the indyref1 manifesto by the snp said we would have a currency union etc.
      now i know that the yes vote in indyref1 was based on bringing back all decisions to scotland, and not about the currency or the snp, which many on the yes side disagreed with the snp etc, but the msm combined the snp’s vision with the yes vote to the exclusion of everyone else. they will do the same the next time which is why the snp’s manifesto for indyref2 is so important.

      they cannot avoid the issue of the eu being raised in indyref2, since the mandate for indyref2 is based on scotland being dragged out against its will.

      that is why i opt for efta/eea option as a mid point between the 2 sides in brexit in an attempt to win 50+% of the vote. (staying in the single market is the option gaining ground across the uk, and scotland, in recent polls)

      this isnt where i would like to see an indy scotland in 5 years time, only what i believe gives us the best chance of winning indyref2, without which we have no options

      your point about further eu integration further down the line after we are indy is more or less what i was proposing

    228. Andy-B says:

      I find Alex Salmond’s proposal that when the next independence referendum comes around, that the Scottish government might be better served by advocating membership of EFTA.

      That position could not only win the hearts of sceptical EU SNP supporters (38% of Scots voted to leave the EU, SNP supporters included) but it could change the minds of some some no voters to independence as well.

      As it stand EFTA, is not available to the rUK, as Norway isn’t that keen on it joining, because of its opposition to free movement. However as yet, Norway has no objection to a independent Scotland becoming a member.

      Its a interesting way of remaining in the Single Market, that could see a more relaxed border crossing between Scotland and the rUK, and allow goods to flow a bit more freely in both directions.

    229. schrodingers cat says:

      andy b

      norway has already confirmed an indy scotland can join efta, as have the other 3 countries

      the uk voted to leave the eu, that is now happening but the biggest issue now is the single market

      the eu’s negotiating position on brexit is based on the uk leaving the single market… why?

      because treeza told them thats what the uk is going to do even before the 27 eu countries agreed on the present negotiations agenda

    230. Macart says:

      I don’t think anyone could doubt Alex Salmond’s commitment to Scotland as part of the EU and wider international community. He is also however, a pragmatist and a democrat (not to mention a pretty shrewd fella).

      I’d say this is an olive branch proposal and should be viewed as such.

    231. schrodingers cat says:

      also, nicola should avoid another 650 page manifesto for indyref2, 2 or 3 sides of a4 should be enough

    232. Breastplate says:

      Schrödinger’s cat,
      I’m very flexible when it comes to securing independence, as I said before, whatever brings more people out for Yes.
      I understand that Indyref2 was tied to Europe but is it absolutely necessary that we have to have Europe in with the first referendum? Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t?
      I’m more than happy to do what produces more Yes votes.

      On the same note, if the worst were to happen, I believe that there should be no caveats concerning future independence referendums, only that we should have one after voting in a pro independence Government in Holyrood.

    233. schrodingers cat says:
      8 September, 2017 at 1:43 pm
      ‘also, nicola should avoid another 650 page manifesto for indyref2, 2 or 3 sides of a4 should be enough’

      But, but – there’s only 2 sides on an A4.

    234. Breastplate says:

      That should have said “an independence referendum every time we vote in a pro independence Government.”

    235. Chick McGregor says:

      I remember the Norwegians (Prime minister?) saying unequivocally during indyref1 that an independent Scotland would be welcomed into EFTA.

      Seems as if those ‘informal’ talks AS had with EFTA in November went well. “See yiz EFTA!” Couldnae resist that yin. 🙂

      And Norway could certainly teach Scotland a thing or two e.g.s

      Oil recovery and revenue methodology, electric vehicles and ferries.

    236. Chick McGregor says:

      P.S.

      Not that I think there is much chance of Wastemidden persuading the Northern Isles to become English, but joining the same economic community as their Norse cousins must make that already ulikely eventuality even more so.

    237. schrodingers cat says:

      Joe of the Coutts says:

      But, but – there’s only 2 sides on an A4.

      ref. touching ball
      dennis taylor…both of them?

      still better than the 1.5 pages of the vote leave manifesto. and they won

    238. ronnie anderson says:

      http://www.facebook.com/groups/scot2.scot/pending/ More lies & cover up’s coming our way .

    239. schrodingers cat says:

      i worked in norway during indyref1, when better together said an indy scotland would get booted out of the eu the noggies were all over scots telling them that norway would love scotland to join efta. why?

      because their pelagic fleet needs to do a deal with the eu to allow noggie ships into eu fishing grounds in exchange for eu fishing fleet access to noggie waters.

      so what?

      they pointed out that when the treaty/agreement said EU fishing grounds what it really meant was scottish fishing grounds!!!

      even the NE fishermen would swallow that

    240. Chick McGregor says:

      SC

      Aye, the fishin, the fishin.

      And WM widnae be able to stop Scotland-Norway power cables fae happening either.

      Whit’s no tae like?

    241. William Wallace says:

      @Vestas 12:45pm

      Have you managed to find a host than can provide privacy for .scot domains?

      I bought a couple of domains a little while back with the intention of using them as an indy forum and chat space but, was informed by host (1and1) that domain privacy is not available for their .scot domains.

      Does anyone else know of any providers that will provide domain privacy with a .scot domain?

    242. Robert Peffers says:

      @colin alexander says: 8 September, 2017 at 11:26 am:

      “Scottish Govt: New Social Security Bill “[This] bill creates offences which do not require criminal intent on the part of the accused. It criminalises behaviour or conduct which is careless or negligent rather than intentionally dishonest.”

      More utter Alexander pish!

      Let’s demolish your whole anti-SNP/Scotland pish right now.

      Much of the criminal offences already put on the statute book by unionist governments specifically criminalises, “conduct which is careless or negligent rather than intentionally dishonest.”

      Driving without due care and intention for starters.

      In Charge of a dog that is not under proper control.

      Drunk & Disorderly.

      In charge of a child while under the influence of alcohol.

      The list is endless.

      As already posted, awa an bile yer heed. Your whole raison d’être here on Wings is to abuse the SNP. You do not give a f… (Err!), fig for Scottish independence.

    243. Andy-B says:

      A very interesting development in the publishing world.

      Trinity Mirror is in advanced talks to take full ownership of Richard Desmond’s publishing assets at Northern & Shell.

      http://archive.is/xW3xu

      For those of you who are unaware of Desmond’s press holdings here a link.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_%26_Shell

    244. Jack Murphy says:

      Ghillie said at 12:02 am early this morning:
      “Just listened to FMQ.

      My belief that we are well on our way to Independence, lead by an exceptionaly competant Government, is again refreshed and renewed”.

      For Newbies and other welcome visitors to Wings here is the Scottish Parliament TV direct link:

      Scottish Parliament TV.
      First Minister’s Questions. Thursday 7th. September.

      http://tinyurl.com/y9bnkb5w

    245. Petra says:

      Thanks to HT and Macart for the links. I understand the implications for us Scots but still can’t understand how T May can use a Henry 8th clause to ride roughshod, to say the least, over everyone in the most undemocratic of ways. Knowing that the UK, formed in 1707, has no written Constitution and therefore relies on Acts, Statutes, Laws, former legal cases etc etc you would think that they could only use what was in place from 1707 on. Seems not! We in Scotland are left with a hard right wing dictatorship composed of Tories / UKippers and DUP politicians, none of whom we voted for, ruling the roost and using claptrap from the 16th Century relating to a Royal lecherous, gluttonous, loathsome wife beheading nutcase. No wonder the whole bl**dy World is laughing at us. When the time is right Nicola Sturgeon will have to address the Nation outlining clear facts to get us out of this madhouse and if the Scots vote No again she should stand down, her party walk out of Holyrood, our politicians walk out of Westminster and hand the reins over to the fk/n hopeless Unionists. Let them get on with it. In saying that I know that we won’t lose. Just making a point, LOL.

      …………………………………

      @ Andy-B at 1:31pm …… “EFTA.”

      Spot on Andy. As it’s now becoming clearer to the fishing community that Westminster’s ready to sell them out, I reckon we could get them back on board with an EFTA arrangement. A recent poll also showed that 92% of Brexit supporting Scots want to remain in the single market. A poll / s could be carried out to ascertain support or not overall which would include of course those who voted to remain in the EU. If that’s what it takes to get our Independence I’ll support it. EU membership and issues such as Republic / Monarchy can be dealt with at a later date, imo.

    246. heedtracker says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      8 September, 2017 at 2:15 pm

      I worked in England during indyref1, where no one had any clue England would be out of the EU less than 2 years later

    247. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat @ 10:28,

      I really do despair. It’s hard to know where to start with this.

      Firstly, you keep peddling this false line that we will be out of the EU before we can choose. This is in direct contradiction to Nicola’s repeated assurance that we get to vote for independence in time, when the Brexit deal is known but before we exit. So either she is misleading us or you are. Which is it?

      If we are to be taken out of the EU regardless, as you keep insisting, against our clearly-expressed will in the referendum, what is the point of having an early indyref2 at all? We might as well wait a year, two years, ten years, whatever, just to get a clearer picture of how things are working out before we dare decide. What kind of goal is that?

      Your oft-repeated assertion undermines the whole point of a timely indyref, and makes a mockery of Nicola’s assurance to us.

      You have no idea of what solutions may present themselves in the event of a successful vote for independence. But what can clearly be known is if we have already rejected any possibility of full EU membership, we can expect no assistance whatever from the EU. Why should they? It makes no sense whatever to jettison potential allies so wantonly as this.

      Secondly, if this is being proposed as some kind of “compromise” to try to reclaim supposed yes-leavers, what assurance do you have that this will be any more successful than simply campaigning for independence first? Some will never return, having been seduced by isolationism, and no compromise will work with them. On the other hand, we will certainly lose many EU residents and no-remainers, who are prime targets for winning the extra 10% we need to succeed. Again, why throw away all those allies we desperately need?

      It is one thing to propose EEA/EFTA membership as a standby mechanism in the event it is needed to bridge an independent Scotland into a desired full EU membership, and quite another to be proposing it as a distinct alternative. Correct me if I am wrong, but having seen your many promotions in this regard, I have the distinct impression that it is actually the latter course that you really support, only you never have the openness and honesty to actually come out and admit it.

      Possibly because it is contrary to current SNP policy, as you surely well know. Whatever Mr. Salmond may say in his own capacity.

      I can only repeat, if members of the SNP like you continue to muddy the waters regarding party policy on Europe, whatever it may be, you will simply attract criticism from your opponents and risk further electoral loss.

      Lastly, your further muddying of the waters with multi-choice referendums on Europe. For goodness’ sake. It’s just one more hobby-horse issue of many to divide people instead of uniting them. All such matters can and must wait until after independence. What is the point of considering any of them when the one essential thing that makes them possible has yet to be achieved?

      Learn a lesson from the EURef: keep things simple. One referendum on one issue: independence.

      Jeez, you would think that paid-up members of the SNP at least would understand that! The lack of that clear focus, at least from some, is very troubling.

    248. Snode1965 says:

      I would like to see the validity of any Henry V111 clause tested in court.
      How can any Law which predates the Union be valid in Scotland, or Westminster for that matter.

    249. North chiel says:

      Entirely agree with Petra @0250 pm .How on earth can pre union of parliaments& union of crowns English King ” law” be applied to Scotland in 2017 ? Utterly farcical and an absolute insult to the people of Scotland and our Holyrood parliament.

    250. Vestas says:

      Re .scot domains :

      I pay £19.99 through 1&1 and its not a special offer – that’s what I pay every year. Maybe its because I pre-registered the domains – no idea really, maybe go talk to your 1&1 account manager?

      Re domain privacy (aka opt-out of whois info) – that’s only really a thing with Nominet (ie .uk domains) and only for private, non-commercial activities. If Nominet continue down their “fuck the users, we are the masters of the universe” path then it soon won’t be available there either.

      I don’t really have a lot of time for people who want to hide who owns a domain, they’re usually dodgy as fuck. People who NEED to hide their identity due to fear of death/torture then fair enough.

      I’m sure there will be someone in Florida willing to front-up as the anonymous reg if you really think it’ll help (it won’t).

    251. Aikenheed says:

      Using Hvìii law proves Downing Street views WM as English Parliament ruling over Greater England

    252. Flower of Scotland says:

      I’m not being mean or anything but there has been a huge increase in commonspace articles everywhere!

      Wonder why?

      Still feeling disgruntled with them, so I avoid like the plague. I really don’t trust them.

    253. Robert Peffers says:

      @schrodingers cat says: 8 September, 2017 at 11:50 am

      “I’ve also been trying to get my head around T May planning to use HenryV111 legislation to push through changes undemocratically. How can that work when he and his laws predated the ‘Union’ of 1707?”

      I’ve been highlighting, for what seems forever, the facts that the entire political mantras of Westminster governments from the last day of April 1707 has been the totally illegal, (under both Scottish & English law), it is entirely based upon lies, illegal assumptions and the gullibility of the electorates of both the former independent Kingdom that form the so called United Kingdom. In effect there never has been an actually real united kingdom.

      Here is the history they really do not want you to know – (and most of you actually probably do not know). Now I just wrote that history from memory. So if anyone wishes to contest any of it speak up now and I will either correct myself or argue the point with you.

      There was a forced Anglo-Scottish parliamentary union under Cromwell. This was dissolved in 1661 and the Scottish Parliament resumed its separate parliamentary, independent, meeting place in Edinburgh.

      In the Kingdom of England the restoration of parliament began a tradition where all governments looked to parliament for legitimacy and not the crown of an England that included Wales from 1284 and Ireland from 1542.

      Then, in 1681, Charles II dissolved parliament and ruled without them for the last four years of his reign. This came after bitter disagreement between the parliament of England and the King of England from 1679 until 1681. Charles chanced his hand in doing this for he risked the chanced of a showdown with the military like that in 1642. He rightly guessed that the English public did not want more civil war.

      So the Parliament of England ended without a fight. It was, though, only a temporary respite

      When Charles II died in 1685 he was succeeded by his brother, James II of England, (and seventh of Scotland).

      Charles had always stayed loyal to the Protestant Church of England, but in private he had Catholic sympathies and James was openly Catholic. James tried to have the restrictions on Catholics taking up public office lifted. This was bitterly fought against by Protestants in his English kingdom. So they invited King Billy, an Orange royal family Protestant who had married Mary, (the daughter of James II and Anne Hyde), to invade England and claim the throne.

      King Billy got together an army of around 15,000 soldiers (said to include 11,000 foot and 4000 horse), and landed them at Brixham in southwest England, (November, 1688).

      At this point many Protestant army officers, including King James’s adviser, John Churchill, 1st Duke of Marlborough, (Aye! That family of Churchills). They defected from the English army to William’s invasion force and King James II of England & VII of Scotland ran away from England.

      The English Parliament then offered the Crown of both The Kingdom of England, and the still independent Kingdom of Scotland, to James’s Protestant daughter Mary, but the correct next in line was James’s son the Catholic James Francis Edward Stuart. (Bonnie Prince Charlie).

      However, Mary refused the offer to be Queen and the the English Parliament then offered the crowns of both the Kingdoms of Scotland and England to William and Mary as joint monarchs.

      This offer was conditional upon them legally delegating their royal sovereignty to the Parliament of the Kingdom of England. As they included in the deal the still independent Kingdom of Scotland they kicked off what England still calls, “The Jacobite Rebellion. However you cannot rebel against a monarchy that is not your own.

      So the real rebels were the English parliamentarians. Another condition was that each joint monarch should rule alone if one of them died. As part of the compromise in allowing William to be King, (called the Glorious Revolution), The English Parliament was able to have the 1689 Bill of Rights enacted.

      Later the 1701 Act of Settlement was approved. These were statutes that lawfully upheld the prominence of parliament for the first time in English history. These events marked the beginning of the English constitutional monarchy and its role as one of the three elements of parliament.

      It could not, of course, legally apply to the still independent Kingdom of Scotland and that is made plain by the fact that England engineered the Treaty of Union of 1706/7. If there had in fact been a legal Union of the Crowns in 1603 there would have been no need for a Treaty of Union in 1706/7.

      The last actual legally, elected as such, parliament of England sat and wound itself up on the last day of April 1707. On the 1st of May 1707 what legally sat in the House of Commons was the Parliament of the two, equally sovereign, partner kingdoms of Scotland & England.

      Yet Westminster has illegally applied English law since day one and assumed that it applied also in Scotland since before there was a United Kingdom. This includes Magna Carta Libertatum (Medieval Latin for “the Great Charter of the Liberties”), agreed to by King John of the Kingdom of England at Runnymede, near Windsor, on 15 June 1215. Yet Scotland was independent until 1707. a full 492 years before the Treaty of Union.

      The entire United Kingdom mantra is nought but a very large pack of lies and assumptions.

    254. Liz g says:

      RE. The Henry VIII law’s
      I totally agree that it’s a farce,most of how the Union works or is ment to work doesn’t make any sense.
      Unless you own estates in both countries.

      Anyhoo I think …..How it works is.

      When both Parliament’s came together they both retained all the law’s that had already been written.
      Once a law becomes a law it stays until Parliament change’s it.
      This particular Law is about how the Westminster Parliament is allowed to write legislation not about the legislation it’s self.
      And it’s the legislation that has to be compatible with our law.

      So to test it in a Court…. I think….you would be asking an English Court if Westminster could use a law that is still a law.
      Well ofcourse they can… would be the answer!
      The Courts can only rule on Law that’s written they can’t change it or claim it’s too old, unfair or not “right”.
      Only Westminster can remove this or any other Law!

      And they do have the right to write Scottish law for this country….we handed that to them on 18th September 2014

    255. Footsoldier says:

      Henry VIII clause, what are Law Society of Scotland saying or are the simply too establishment to put Scottish Law first?

    256. schrodingers cat says:

      robert
      So either she is misleading us or you are. Which is it?
      —————–

      no one is misleading anyone, myself and others, including Salmond, are merely floating ideas

      —————-
      We might as well wait a year, two years, ten years, whatever,

      ————————

      if the polls dont move then the snp may well wait, until after next holyrood election according to Tommy Shepard.(btw, he is also an SNP member) I hope not and dont think it will be long before brexit starts to really bite and the polls move in our favour. Lets be honest about it robert, if we had consistent polls showing yes at 60%, you and i and everyone on wos would be clamouring for indyref2 to be held tomorrow.

      regardless of whether we hold indyref2 before or after we leave, the eu has already said we would need to apply as a new member under article 49, for obvious reasons.
      ————–

      I have the distinct impression that it is actually the latter course that you really support, only you never have the openness and honesty to actually come out and admit it.

      ——————-
      sans blague…….j’ai la nationalité française. Citoyen du 5eme republique et tout ça, et tout ça,
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4knSzXy2oU

      btw take heed of ken500’s advice, to make a point it isnt necessary to insult all and sundry who have a different POV.

      —————-
      Possibly because it is contrary to current SNP policy, as you surely well know. Whatever Mr. Salmond may say in his own capacity.

      ———————
      policy is decided by the members in the snp, ask robert peffers for details
      ——————–
      I can only repeat, if members of the SNP like you continue to muddy the waters regarding party policy on Europe, whatever it may be, you will simply attract criticism from your opponents and risk further electoral loss.
      ————————

      I was discussing indyref2, not party policy on the EU, because i believe tying indyref2 to efta membership is a winning combination
      ———-

      Lastly, your further muddying of the waters with multi-choice referendums on Europe.
      ——————
      no I am not, im saying we will deal with further eu integration when indy, along with a number of other issues, eg the queen
      ———

      One referendum on one issue: independence.
      ———————–

      the idea that we can just ignore the issue of the eu in indyref2 is for the birds, same as having no policy on currency or the queen. we dont need another 650 page book, but we need a basic outline.
      eg another wee blue book

      that outline will be to tie a yes vote in indyref 2 to
      1. launching a scots pound
      2. automatically applying to join EFTA (EEA to be confirmed)
      3. keeping the queen

      whether we join the euro, have a republic, join the eu after we are indy will be decided in the first holyrood election session once we are independent

    257. Liz g says:

      Robert Peffers @ 4.08
      Are ye no missing a King there Robert?
      I thought that Bonnie Prince Charlie was the grandson of the deposed James,and there was another James (the old pretender)?

    258. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      I was working in Angola during Indy Ref 1 @heedtracker says at 3:09 pm and @schrodingers cat says at 2:15 pm

      As part of a multi national workforce (27 Nationalities).

      None of them could believe we bottled it (even the English lads knew Scotland wasn’t a basket case).

      The Angolans were incredulous that we didn’t take our independence when all we had to do was vote for it.

      They’d had to fight a bush war (proxy West vs East, Hot War of the Cold War) to get theirs.

    259. jfngw says:

      @Vesta

      If you think domain privacy is wrong I’m hope you are not in charge of any web security operations. If you don’t understand the reason for domain privacy you should maybe try a quick search.

      Bad news is this site uses domain privacy, you will not find the Rev as the owner. What are you inferring about him?

      1and1 have reviewed a lot of their services this year, I had a web start which was £35/year, this was increased to £75 for this year (I changed my package and just host my own server at home now).

      And there is no point contacting 1and1 their prices are online (£49/year inc vat), I don’t think they would see me as a high value customer with one domain name.

    260. Shinty says:

      Footsoldier says:
      8 September, 2017 at 4:10 pm
      Henry VIII clause, what are Law Society of Scotland saying or are the simply too establishment to put Scottish Law first?

      —-
      Good article in The National yesterday or day before. You’ll need to look it up – don’t have my copy here.

    261. Dr Jim says:

      Henry V111 powers are about as relevant to Scotland as the power of Greyskull and all Scottish MPs should be laughing at them not arguing with them

      And then dismiss them entirely and leave our legal people to fight with them

      What on earth are they going to pull next, a ransom tax to free King Richard the Lionheart from the evil Moors in the Holyland

    262. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat @ 16:12,

      Some nifty ducking and diving there.

      I did not “insult you”, as you claim, I invited you to come out openly for your personal view on EEA/EFTA, and was happy to be corrected if my impression was wrong. (The part you carefully omitted from your re-quote.) But still no answer from you, just more evasion and smokescreening. So come on, out with it, what is your position?

      You likewise dodge my point about timing with a casual dismissal. But empty hand-waving won’t cut it. The only point of having a pre-Brexit indyref2 is to influence the outcome for Scotland. If this can’t happen, as you assert, then it’s a farce. Nicola has assured us that it does matter. So either it does, as she tells us, or it doesn’t, as you claim. It has to be one or the other, you can’t dodge that conclusion.

      The notion of an EEA/EFTA “compromise” is potentially as fallacious as that previous unfortunate compromise: the sterling currency union. Its self-evident weakness satisfied no-one. The lines of attack on EEA/EFTA are already clear: we have to pay near as much for membership but we get no say. Mere second-class hangers-on of the EU. That will really convince the sovereignty fans – not. The EU provides social solidarity funding (the Tradeston pedestrian bridge in Glasgow being one recent example), EEA/EFTA is a trading-only area, so you can kiss all that economic support goodbye. I could go on.

      There is nothing self-evident that any compromise maximises support. It could just as likely minimise it. The notion of an EEA/EFTA panacea to cure all political ills is a dangerous delusion that will only deliver the same negative result as that misbegotten currency proposal.

      What some indy campaigners apparently fail to realise is that ordinary people want continuity and stability, not endless pie-in-the sky proposals from political anoraks joggling for position in front of a party conference. A serious principled stand from at least one political party that they can trust, and which offers them a clear route forward with the greatest possible economic security and least possible amount of disruption to their busy lives. Continuing with our current EU membership into indy offers precisely that.

    263. colin alexander says:

      @Robert Peffers

      No, Robert. That’s just diversion. Whitabootery at it’s finest.

      We are no talking about other areas of the law. We are talking about Social Security. The draft law for Scotland is more draconian than even the poor hating Tory Govt have at WM.

      For the sake of the poor and the Indy’s sake. The SNP must realise this would be unacceptable. If they bring this in, they are guaranteeing a landslide for NO and will bring in a Labour Scot Govt in 2021.

    264. Ken500 says:

      Trinity Mirror in talks to buy the Daily Express.

      Another one gone, another one down, another one hits the dust?

      Daily Mail next? Relocating to Irish Rep. Brexit.

    265. call me dave says:

      @Robert Peffers

      Keep telling us Robert. Excellent… 🙂

      PS:
      I saw that for a few days there the BBC were saying that WM was going to chance all the laws back to ‘British’ law which got me screaming at the screen, but yesterday, the word ‘British’ had suddenly disappeared to be replaced in the caption and spoken voice-over as ‘Domestic’ law.

      They knew that ‘British’ was wrong.

    266. Scott says:

      More bad news for Scotland.

      An additional 900 million barrels in the North Sea by raising recovery factor from only 42%

      If only Scotland got all the revenue from this and not be wasted by Westminster.

    267. Capella says:

      @ Robert Peffers – small correction:
      The English Parliament then offered the Crown of both The Kingdom of England, and the still independent Kingdom of Scotland, to James’s Protestant daughter Mary, but the correct next in line was James’s son the Catholic James Francis Edward Stuart. (Bonnie Prince Charlie).

      should read (Bonnie Prince Charlie’s da.)

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Francis_Edward_Stuart

    268. wull2 says:

      To all my YES friends close to AYR and doon the water, don’t give up hope, when I was a child I spent a lot of time in Kames, so I know the area well, I went to discos in Kames, Tighnabruaich and over the hill at the top, it was also used for the odd film, am I now showing my age, I also went a few times to a disco in Dunoon. That’s enough from me, back to the main purpose vote YES next time.

    269. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      “Henry V111 powers are about as relevant to Scotland as the power of Greyskull”

      Love it @Dr Jim says at 5:17 pm

      But mind Dr Jim, the folk proposing these Henry VIII powers have all been SkullFu*ked so they haven’t an ounce of common sense between them.

      Fully agree though that

      Scotland’s Elected Representatives “dismiss them (Henry V111 powers) entirely and leave our legal people to fight with them”

      Mike Russell made a comment about Brexit and Henry VIII powers basically annulling the Act of Union 1707 the other day.

    270. Lenny Hartley says:

      Robert J Sutherland
      I for one prefer EFTA , it ticks all the boxes, if Mr Salmond believes it’s a good idea who am I to argue. Full membership of the EU can be decided by a referendum once we are Independent along with the future of the Monarchy.
      Saying we are only interested in full EU membership plays into the Yoons hands, they can come out with all the same old scare stories, Spain will veto, we will have to go to the end of the queue after Turkey, we will have to join the Euro etc etc.
      A substantial minority of Yes voters last time voted to leave the EU. Perhaps they were conned, a know a few and the would vote no this time in a Scots Indy ref if we were going to join the EU.
      Whether EFTA membership makes a difference to their voting intentions for indyref2 I know not, however once the fishing folk realise their being sold down the river by Westminster, they may come onside with EFTA. The European citizens working here will be pro yes, this could be enough to get us over the finishing line and once we are free of Westminsters shackles we can sit down and rationally look at what the best way forward is, whether that be EFTA in our out of Customs union, Full EU membership or neither, our choice, I like that idea.

    271. bjsalba says:

      @Robert Peffers 7 September, 2017 at 5:23 pm

      Anyone who has watched Michael Dougan’s pieces on Brexit knows that and has known that for a long time.

    272. Dan Huil says:

      Keep watching developments in Catalonia, and Northern Ireland.

    273. AuldReekieJim says:

      If Theresa May gets her way next week, by winning the vote to use Henry VIII powers, she will use pre 1707 English law to over-rule current Scots law, as well as UK law.

      Surely this should lead to a constitutional crises. What really is the point of the SNP continuing to sit in Westminster?
      The Tories can rip up their Westminster Parliament democracy, legality, rules, and ethics in a power grab, even while running a minority government?

      I am sure the SNP mps that are allowed to speak in the debate, will put this case forward.

      If this bill is voted through as expected, I think the SNP should exit the Commons and return to Edinburgh.

      Some, or many may think I am a bit OTT on this, but seriously, what would be the bloody point in staying on in that cesspit?

    274. Ken500 says:

      What happened to EVEL? 2014. That quickly disappeared. Not on the statute book. Just seat back and watch the hysteria as the unionist Parties tear themselves. The Tories are finished. If they get it through or they don’t get it through. It could take years. They couldn’t make a bigger mess. All this for the sake of 100,000 migrants? Misinformation and fiddled figures. Far less then the number/share they should be responsible for as a result in of the number of people displaced by illegal wars.

      The SNP Gov will stand up for Scotland. Have trust, and patience. Scotland is already going a different way. Improvements. Holding Westminster to account. FFA/Independence.

    275. bjsalba says:

      @Jockanese Wind Talker at 7:21 pm

      Expert

      Ex I go with but

      pert =
      a: saucily free and forward
      b: flippantly cocky and assured

    276. yesindyref2 says:

      @Vestas / jfngw
      I’d pay £34.99 + VAT for a .scot which is exorbitant and I don’t ahve any, and pay £5.99 for a .com or .co.uk, but that was my account with domainmonster who were taken over by 123. I get a discount of 10% for 10, 25% for 25, so renew in batches.

      Yes nominet are a ripoff now, a lot of protests from tag-holders of whom I knew a few (online) in the old days, but it’s a new order now.

      Privacy is essential for many reasons not least of which is spam by email or even phone, and I have it with just about all mine including .com / net / org. Only the green address bar domain is visible, and that of course is part of the owner verification procedure. In theory I could reprivacy it once the verification is done, but I don’t bother.

      .scot is not supported by enough registrars to become cheaper through competition, though for some reason .wales is, as is .london.

    277. yesindyref2 says:

      OT – domains
      I just checked another one https://www.astutium.com/domainchecker.php
      Used to be cyberstrider who had 10quid, looks like Denesh sold up don’t blame him, early mover probably owns a few islands by now. I fell out with him, one of those things where you’re both right from a different point of view. Can’t say what astutium are like all the same, prices below the long list of tld / cctld supported. .scot same, .co.uk and .com look cheaper than I’m getting now, but with my discount I;d ahve to work it out. Mmmm. I thinned out my portfolio drastically when the prices went up, only got about 60 or so now. Well, I am getting older and no time to develop the ideas I once had.

    278. yesindyref2 says:

      Back on topic, 148 Hamish’s sold so far – mines’s not unique!

    279. pipinghot says:

      In common with non acceptance of Scottish notes in certain establishments in Engerland, My .scot email regularly gets rejected on online forms as non valid. Joy.

    280. schrodingers cat says:

      Robert J. Sutherland

      Some nifty ducking and diving there.
      ———————-
      your tone remains less than complementary, i repeat, it cost nothing to keep a civil tongue in your head
      ————————————–

      I did not “insult you”, as you claim, I invited you to come out openly for your personal view on EEA/EFTA, and was happy to be corrected if my impression was wrong. (The part you carefully omitted from your re-quote.) But still no answer from you, just more evasion and smokescreening. So come on, out with it, what is your position?
      ———————-
      being a french national, I thought it would be obvious but for clarity, i would like and will campaign for full EU membership and adopting the Euro once we are independent.ok?

      but we are not discussing what i would like but what I believe the best way to win indyref2, without which, everything is for nothing

      no smoke screen or evasion, i supported the policy of keeping the queen during indyref1 for the same reasoning, btw I am a republican, but a yes vote is the only way I can realistically see as a means of getting shot of Brenda.
      ——————————-

      You likewise dodge my point about timing with a casual dismissal.
      ———————
      I did? for clarity, i thinkwe should hold indyref2 when i am confident we can win it, i believe the fall out from brexit will deliver enough nos2yes to diliver that result. I am sure Nicola has better polling info than me so I will let her decide.

      ———————————

      But empty hand-waving won’t cut it.
      ———————–
      i dare say neither does the sound of one hand clapping but for clarity, a bird in the hand gathers no something or other 🙂
      ———————–
      The only point of having a pre-Brexit indyref2 is to influence the outcome for Scotland. If this can’t happen, as you assert,
      then it’s a farce.
      ———————-
      I didnt assert any such thing, i dont know if indyref2 will happen before or after the uk leaves the eu, as per my last post. what i did say was regardless of when it happens, an indy scotland will need to apply to join the EU, as a new natio,n under article 49, for obvious reasons.
      ——————-

      Nicola has assured us that it does matter. So either it does, as she tells us, or it doesn’t, as you claim. It has to be one or the other, you can’t dodge that conclusion.
      ——————————-
      yes it does matter, eg, after brexit eu citizens might be blocked by westminster from voting etc, but she has formally taken indyref2 off the table since the GE, I am unsure if we can hold it before, ideally i would like sept 2018/spring 2019, but i believe Nicola is waiting to see how brexit pans out and will make a decision closer to the time. if support for yes doesnt start to show a rise by then, she may decide to wait until after we leave.
      I dont have a crystal ball, just a belief that support for yes will rise in the wake of brexit
      ————————–

      The notion of an EEA/EFTA “compromise” is potentially as fallacious as that previous unfortunate compromise: the sterling currency union.

      —————-

      potentially, but potentially not. many in the snp and on this thread think it is a vote winner.
      ——————–
      Its self-evident weakness satisfied no-one.
      ———————
      if that were self evident, why does salmond and folk on this thread support efta? that in itself proves it is not self evident
      ——————-
      The lines of attack on EEA/EFTA are already clear: we have to pay near as much for membership but we get no say. Mere second-class hangers-on of the EU
      ——————–
      true, but in the short term and as a means of winning indyref2, i think not having 10 scottish MEPs in brussels voting in a parliament of over 600, is a small price to pay. but just as their are draw backs to efta/eea their are also advantages, not being part of the cfp will appeal to brexiter fishermen. it also means we can subsidise scottish farm and food products in scotland to the detriment of other eu producers to the benefit of our own farmers and producers. we can, in the short term, assure farmers that an indy scotland will mirror the eu farm subsidy system, something westminster has failed to do.
      —————-

      That will really convince the sovereignty fans – not. The EU provides social solidarity funding (the Tradeston pedestrian bridge in Glasgow being one recent example), EEA/EFTA is a trading-only area, so you can kiss all that economic support goodbye. I could go on.
      ——————-
      please do, but both brexiteers and remainers believe in sovereignty so i dont know what your point is.
      ————————————–

      There is nothing self-evident that any compromise maximises support. It could just as likely minimise it.
      —————–
      it is self evident that many on this thread, and salmond do believe it will maximise it, otherwise they wouldnt support it.
      one of the reasons was pointed out earlier in the thread by that if westminster screws the fishermen, a very likely senario, efta/eea would appeal to them, seems a valid point.
      —————————————–

      The notion of an EEA/EFTA panacea to cure all political ills is a dangerous delusion that will only deliver the same negative result as that misbegotten currency proposal.
      —————————–
      it isnt, it is a policy which many believe will help us win indyref2 for the reasons mentioned
      ———————-

      What some indy campaigners apparently fail to realise is that ordinary people want continuity and stability, not endless pie-in-the sky proposals from political anoraks joggling for position in front of a party conference.
      ————————
      i’m not sure indy campaigners fail to realise anything and I certainly wouldnt make such an obtuse comment. Neither do I think i am a political anorak, nor others on this thread who support this idea. Or Salmond. I think he is finished joggling for position in front of a party conference.
      —————-

      A serious principled stand from at least one political party that they can trust, and which offers them a clear route forward with the greatest possible economic security and least possible amount of disruption to their busy lives. Continuing with our current EU membership into indy offers precisely that.
      ——————–

      our current eu membership of the EU is over, an indy scotland will not inherit the uk’s membership deal, with a rebate, optouts, thats WHY the eu has said we will need to join under article 49, not 50, that would give us successor state rights.
      indeed , even if the uk stops brexit, the eu membership they currently have will not endure.
      the reason everyones economic security is compromised at the moment is NOT because the uk is leaving the EU but because it is leaving the single market.

    281. Rock says:

      Meg merrilees,

      “Nicola’s rallying call:

      The message that I want to send out to people here at home, to people elsewhere in the UK and people internationally … is:

      Scotland is the best place in the world to grow up in and be educated,”

      Is it really?

      What is the life expectancy in Glasgow, Scotland’s biggest city?

      What is it in her own constituency?

      Why do we want “independence” then?

      Nicola really must stop flogging dead horses and instead highlight what we could make better by becoming independent.

    282. schrodingers cat says:

      Robert J. Sutherland

      Some nifty ducking and diving there.
      ———————-
      your tone remains less than complementary, i repeat, it cost nothing to keep a civil tongue in your head
      ————————————–

      I did not “insult you”, as you claim, I invited you to come out openly for your personal view on EEA/EFTA, and was happy to be corrected if my impression was wrong. (The part you carefully omitted from your re-quote.) But still no answer from you, just more evasion and smokescreening. So come on, out with it, what is your position?
      ———————-
      being a french national, I thought it would be obvious but for clarity, i would like and will campaign for full EU membership and adopting the Euro once we are independent.ok?

      but we are not discussing what i would like but what I believe the best way to win indyref2, without which, everything is for nothing

      no smoke screen or evasion, i supported the policy of keeping the queen during indyref1 for the same reasoning, btw I am a republican, but a yes vote is the only way I can realistically see as a means of getting shot of Brenda.
      ——————————-

      You likewise dodge my point about timing with a casual dismissal.
      ———————
      I did? for clarity, i thinkwe should hold indyref2 when i am confident we can win it, i believe the fall out from brexit will deliver enough nos2yes to diliver that result. I am sure Nicola has better polling info than me so I will let her decide.

      ———————————

      But empty hand-waving won’t cut it.
      ———————–
      i dare say neither does the sound of one hand clapping but for clarity, a bird in the hand gathers no something or other 🙂
      ———————–
      The only point of having a pre-Brexit indyref2 is to influence the outcome for Scotland. If this can’t happen, as you assert,
      then it’s a farce.
      ———————-
      I didnt assert any such thing, i dont know if indyref2 will happen before or after the uk leaves the eu, as per my last post. what i did say was regardless of when it happens, an indy scotland will need to apply to join the EU, as a new natio,n under article 49, for obvious reasons.
      ——————-

      Nicola has assured us that it does matter. So either it does, as she tells us, or it doesn’t, as you claim. It has to be one or the other, you can’t dodge that conclusion.
      ——————————-
      yes it does matter, eg, after brexit eu citizens might be blocked by westminster from voting etc, but she has formally taken indyref2 off the table since the GE, I am unsure if we can hold it before, ideally i would like sept 2018/spring 2019, but i believe Nicola is waiting to see how brexit pans out and will make a decision closer to the time. if support for yes doesnt start to show a rise by then, she may decide to wait until after we leave.
      I dont have a crystal ball, just a belief that support for yes will rise in the wake of brexit
      ————————–

      The notion of an EEA/EFTA “compromise” is potentially as fallacious as that previous unfortunate compromise: the sterling currency union.

      —————-

      potentially, but potentially not. many in the snp and on this thread think it is a vote winner.
      ——————–
      Its self-evident weakness satisfied no-one.
      ———————
      if that were self evident, why does salmond and folk on this thread support efta? that in itself proves it is not self evident
      ——————-
      The lines of attack on EEA/EFTA are already clear: we have to pay near as much for membership but we get no say. Mere second-class hangers-on of the EU
      ——————–
      true, but in the short term and as a means of winning indyref2, i think not having 10 scottish MEPs in brussels voting in a parliament of over 600, is a small price to pay. but just as their are draw backs to efta/eea their are also advantages, not being part of the cfp will appeal to brexiter fishermen. it also means we can subsidise scottish farm and food products in scotland to the detriment of other eu producers to the benefit of our own farmers and producers. we can, in the short term, assure farmers that an indy scotland will mirror the eu farm subsidy system, something westminster has failed to do.
      —————-

      That will really convince the sovereignty fans – not. The EU provides social solidarity funding (the Tradeston pedestrian bridge in Glasgow being one recent example), EEA/EFTA is a trading-only area, so you can kiss all that economic support goodbye. I could go on.
      ——————-
      please do, but both brexiteers and remainers believe in sovereignty so i dont know what your point is.
      ————————————–

      There is nothing self-evident that any compromise maximises support. It could just as likely minimise it.
      —————–
      it is self evident that many on this thread, and salmond do believe it will maximise it, otherwise they wouldnt support it.
      one of the reasons was pointed out earlier in the thread by that if westminster screws the fishermen, a very likely senario, efta/eea would appeal to them, seems a valid point.
      —————————————–

      The notion of an EEA/EFTA panacea to cure all political ills is a dangerous delusion that will only deliver the same negative result as that misbegotten currency proposal.
      —————————–
      it isnt, it is a policy which many believe will help us win indyref2 for the reasons mentioned
      ———————-

      What some indy campaigners apparently fail to realise is that ordinary people want continuity and stability, not endless pie-in-the sky proposals from political anoraks joggling for position in front of a party conference.
      ————————
      i’m not sure indy campaigners fail to realise anything and I certainly wouldnt make such an obtuse comment. Neither do I think i am a political anorak, nor others on this thread who support this idea. Or Salmond. I think he is finished joggling for position in front of a party conference.
      —————-

      A serious principled stand from at least one political party that they can trust, and which offers them a clear route forward with the greatest possible economic security and least possible amount of disruption to their busy lives. Continuing with our current EU membership into indy offers precisely that.
      ——————–

      our current eu membership of the EU is over, an indy scotland will not inherit the uk’s membership deal, with a rebate, optouts, thats WHY the eu has said we will need to join under article 49, not 50, that would give us successor state rights.
      indeed , even if the uk stops brexit, the eu membership they currently have will not endure.
      the reason everyones economic security is compromised at the moment is NOT because the uk is leaving the EU but because it is leaving the single market. that would be alleviated with efta/eea, as would the ennuie the eu nationals are suffering at the moment

    283. Dr Jim says:

      The Queensferry bridge will still be carrying traffic 100 years after the new aircraft carriers are scrap metal
      I think our Government spent our money a good bit more wisely
      because after all these things are only boats

      Oh and we could have built four Queensferry bridges for the price of them and that’s just one example

    284. schrodingers cat says:

      soz 4 double post

    285. Robert Peffers says:

      @Liz g says: 8 September, 2017 at 4:34 pm:

      “Are ye no missing a King there Robert?”

      “I thought that Bonnie Prince Charlie was the grandson of the deposed James,and there was another James (the old pretender)?”

      Well no, we are not missing a King. We just have a wee extra bit of text, which wasn’t meant to be there.

      The two persons in question were first:-

      James Edward Stuart, (10 June 1688 – 1 January 1766), who was, as stated, the son of King James II and VII.

      And the other was:-

      Charles Edward Stuart (31 December 1720 – 31 January 1788).

      I had originally included Charles that bit in the narrative but decided to attempt to shorten the narrative and deleted that bit but missed also deleting the bit in brackets so ended up inadvertently giving James Edward Stuart, (Old Pretender) the nickname of Charles who was the Bonnie Prince Charlie,(The young Pretender).

      The name was right, the title was right but the nickname in brackets was supposed to be deleted along with the paragraph about Charles that I did delete.

      I hope that explains it, but I really should have included the Charles Edward Stuart bit in the narrative.

      Sorry everyone – for my cack-hander error.

    286. Shinty says:

      Fionan – your irk should be directed to supplier of these Greyhounds, not the end user.

      Sadly, we are NOT a nation of animal lovers. Animals of all kinds suffer intolerable cruelty right here in the UK, 24/7.

      Wee Hamish is about OUR future when just maybe we can start to make a difference.

    287. jfngw says:

      @yesindy2

      Still OT, but the topic is a cuddly toy so I don’t feel too bad about it.

      If you are a private individual you can request that your personal details (not your name) are hidden when a whois is done on your site. It doesn’t cost anything and is fine for what I need, just make sure you don’t use the same name for email.

      The full privacy sometimes has potential hidden cost, depends on who is hosting. The company I use has an admin charge if someone wants to contact you via the email, this is per email so it could build up.

    288. Liz g says:

      Robert Peffers @ 7.57
      Nae bother Robert….ye actually had me questioning ma own memory lol

    289. galamcennalath says:

      I notice Farage has suddenly become vocal and being quoted/pushed big time in the gutter press.

      He has something in common with Gordon ‘Federal’ Broon, he comes out from under his dried dung heap when his faction are beginning to panic.

      If they need to use Farage then the mad bad Hard Brexiteers must believe their schemes are under threat!

    290. Robert Louis says:

      Henry VIII ‘powers’ were written for the Parliament of England. The current UK Government is not nor ever was part of the Parliament of England. The current Parliament in London is the Parliament of the United Kingdom, therefore this Henry VIII nonsense is simply not valid legislation. It relates to the English Parliament, which was abolished at the time of the treaty of Union 1707. It is therefore an English law only, and does not apply to matters pertaining to Scotland, or possibly even Englsnd.

      Just because the old English Parliament was in Westminster and the UK Parliament is in Westminster does not mean you can simply use ancient laws relating to the abolished English Parliament.

      The SNP really should be all over this. The UK Parliament and by extension, its executive branch – the UK Government cannot merely adopt powers over Scotland for which their is no law. This English only law ONLY applied to the old English Parliament, which no longer exists.

      I agree with others above, that IF such powers get voted through by the UK parliament, it will be wholly illegal, and a complete breach of the terms of the treaty of union. In such circumstances the SNP MP’s MUST walk out, since the Parliament in which they sit will be not only acting against Scotland, it will be in breach of the union treaty and assuming powers, it has NO authority to assume. Wholly, and completely illegal.

      This is a very important point, it is EXTREMELY serious and the SNP need to get to grips with this ASAP. These are very desparate times, and they need strong action by our Scottish Government.

    291. galamcennalath says:

      Guys! When we quote what someone else has said can we please put that text in italics tags, or double quotes, or ideally in blockquote tags?

      Otherwise it’s very difficult to know who said/says what.

      🙂

      open angle brackets/less than symbol then
      blockquote
      then a close angle brackets/greater than symbol

      I said, they said, we said

      open angle brackets/less than symbol then
      /blockquote
      then close angle brackets/greater than symbol

      I said, they said, we said

    292. galamcennalath says:

      <blockquote> The other guy said </blockquote>

      Gives

      The other guy said

    293. jfngw says:

      I see the Scottish Governor has used his great expertise to tell the Law Society of Scotland that they are wrong regarding the WM power grab. As the Governor of the last colony does not believe that Scotland exist then his logic is clear, there can be no power grab from something that doesn’t exist. It also allows him to claim we voted to leave the EU.

      Rumours are he is currently trying to have his title change to Secretary of State for Lesser England.

    294. schrodingers cat says:

      sorry gala, seemed clear to me
      how do you do italics?

    295. Liz g says:

      Robert Lewis 8.44
      Robert the Henry the VIII law’s have been used before.
      And they are about how Westminster conduct’s it’s business.

      The English Parliament brought those laws with them into the UK Parliament in 1707!
      The Scottish Parliament also took with it all of its own Laws,and as we are asserting that also includes The Declarations of Arbroath and Clergy.

      If we are to have these much older documents given gravitas,and the 1707 Treaty treated as a live document.
      We can’t just dismiss the English one’s as not counting because they pre date the Treaty.

      We mibbi need to as you say take them really seriously but we would be portrayed as reactionary and using any excuse if we were to have our MP’s just walk out.
      Besides there are now more than just 3 who wouldn’t do it.
      Westminster would just go on ruling, just like it does in N Ireland.

      At the moment the media and Westminster it’s self are rasing awareness of these laws,and it’s no a good look.
      So let’s wait a wee bit till more people work out it’s a terrible law.
      Then we tell them that we don’t have to take it!

    296. galamcennalath says:

      @schrodingers cat

      <I>Italic</I>

      Gives

      Italic

      And

      <B>Bold</B>

      Gives

      Bold

    297. schrodingers cat says:

      test

    298. galamcennalath says:

      jfngw says:

      Secretary of State for Lesser England

      Or even …

      Secretary of State for Outer England

      © Meg merrilees

    299. Calum McKay says:

      Liz g at 21.12 Very fair and observant point, statutes from both countries pre union should be up for consideration.

      One countries statutes should not be discarded purely on population size or because colonial placemen, women and colonels in 2017 favour selling their country down the river!

    300. salty says:

      i think the SNP will go for a Referendum once Brexit is out of the way. Which is March 2019.

    301. schrodingers cat says:

      Robert J. Sutherland

      Some nifty ducking and diving there.
      ———————-
      your tone remains less than complementary, i repeat, it cost nothing to keep a civil tongue in your head
      ————————————–

      I did not “insult you”, as you claim, I invited you to come out openly for your personal view on EEA/EFTA, and was happy to be corrected if my impression was wrong. (The part you carefully omitted from your re-quote.) But still no answer from you, just more evasion and smokescreening. So come on, out with it, what is your position?
      ———————-
      being a french national, I thought it would be obvious but for clarity, i would like and will campaign for full EU membership and adopting the Euro once we are independent.ok?

      but we are not discussing what i would like but what I believe the best way to win indyref2, without which, everything is for nothing

      no smoke screen or evasion, i supported the policy of keeping the queen during indyref1 for the same reasoning, btw I am a republican, but a yes vote is the only way I can realistically see as a means of getting shot of Brenda.
      ——————————-

      You likewise dodge my point about timing with a casual dismissal.
      ———————
      I did? for clarity, i thinkwe should hold indyref2 when i am confident we can win it, i believe the fall out from brexit will deliver enough nos2yes to diliver that result. I am sure Nicola has better polling info than me so I will let her decide.

      ———————————

      But empty hand-waving won’t cut it
      ———————–
      i dare say neither does the sound of one hand clapping but for clarity, a bird in the hand gathers no something or other 🙂
      ———————–
      The only point of having a pre-Brexit indyref2 is to influence the outcome for Scotland. If this can’t happen, as you assert,
      then it’s a farce

      ———————-
      I didnt assert any such thing, i dont know if indyref2 will happen before or after the uk leaves the eu, as per my last post. what i did say was regardless of when it happens, an indy scotland will need to apply to join the EU, as a new natio,n under article 49, for obvious reasons.
      ——————-

      Nicola has assured us that it does matter. So either it does, as she tells us, or it doesn’t, as you claim. It has to be one or the other, you can’t dodge that conclusion.
      ——————————-
      yes it does matter, eg, after brexit eu citizens might be blocked by westminster from voting etc, but she has formally taken indyref2 off the table since the GE, I am unsure if we can hold it before, ideally i would like sept 2018/spring 2019, but i believe Nicola is waiting to see how brexit pans out and will make a decision closer to the time. if support for yes doesnt start to show a rise by then, she may decide to wait until after we leave.
      I dont have a crystal ball, just a belief that support for yes will rise in the wake of brexit
      ————————–

      The notion of an EEA/EFTA “compromise” is potentially as fallacious as that previous unfortunate compromise: the sterling currency union.

      —————-

      potentially, but potentially not. many in the snp and on this thread think it is a vote winner.
      ——————–
      Its self-evident weakness satisfied no-one.
      ———————
      if that were self evident, why does salmond and folk on this thread support efta? that in itself proves it is not self evident
      ——————-
      The lines of attack on EEA/EFTA are already clear: we have to pay near as much for membership but we get no say. Mere second-class hangers-on of the EU
      ——————–
      true, but in the short term and as a means of winning indyref2, i think not having 10 scottish MEPs in brussels voting in a parliament of over 600, is a small price to pay. but just as their are draw backs to efta/eea their are also advantages, not being part of the cfp will appeal to brexiter fishermen. it also means we can subsidise scottish farm and food products in scotland to the detriment of other eu producers to the benefit of our own farmers and producers. we can, in the short term, assure farmers that an indy scotland will mirror the eu farm subsidy system, something westminster has failed to do.
      —————-

      That will really convince the sovereignty fans – not. The EU provides social solidarity funding (the Tradeston pedestrian bridge in Glasgow being one recent example), EEA/EFTA is a trading-only area, so you can kiss all that economic support goodbye. I could go on.
      ——————-
      please do, but both brexiteers and remainers believe in sovereignty so i dont know what your point is.
      ————————————–

      There is nothing self-evident that any compromise maximises support. It could just as likely minimise it.
      —————–
      it is self evident that many on this thread, and salmond do believe it will maximise it, otherwise they wouldnt support it.
      one of the reasons was pointed out earlier in the thread by that if westminster screws the fishermen, a very likely senario, efta/eea would appeal to them, seems a valid point.
      —————————————–

      The notion of an EEA/EFTA panacea to cure all political ills is a dangerous delusion that will only deliver the same negative result as that misbegotten currency proposal.
      —————————–
      it isnt, it is a policy which many believe will help us win indyref2 for the reasons mentioned
      ———————-

      What some indy campaigners apparently fail to realise is that ordinary people want continuity and stability, not endless pie-in-the sky proposals from political anoraks joggling for position in front of a party conference.
      ————————
      i’m not sure indy campaigners fail to realise anything and I certainly wouldnt make such an obtuse comment. Neither do I think i am a political anorak, nor others on this thread who support this idea. Or Salmond. I think he is finished joggling for position in front of a party conference.
      —————-

      A serious principled stand from at least one political party that they can trust, and which offers them a clear route forward with the greatest possible economic security and least possible amount of disruption to their busy lives. Continuing with our current EU membership into indy offers precisely that.
      ——————–

      our current eu membership of the EU is over, an indy scotland will not inherit the uk’s membership deal, with a rebate, optouts, thats WHY the eu has said we will need to join under article 49, not 50, that would give us successor state rights.
      indeed , even if the uk stops brexit, the eu membership they currently have will not endure.
      the reason everyones economic security is compromised at the moment is NOT because the uk is leaving the EU but because it is leaving the single market. that would be alleviated with efta/eea, as would the ennuie the eu nationals are suffering at the moment

    302. Tam the Bam. says:

      O/T
      Noticed over on the Twitter feed…

      Magnus f*****g Gardham(ex -editor Herald and now Fluffy’s right-hand man in the Scottish Office)….saying…’Brexit Withdrawal Plan is not a power grab)….and as I’ve said on numerous occasions….I’m Napoleon.

    303. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      The by elections yesterday were disappointing but not a lot more as we held neither of the seats but rather underline the fact that the SNP support does not come out to vote when the SNP is not engaged in a continuous independence campaign.
      Can’t find the percentage turnout figures anywhere but these are critical in council elections. Does anyone have them?
      Low turnouts generally advantage the incumbent which may have been the case in Cardonald

      The story in the N Lanarkshire ward is surely the Tory dropping from first to fourth place as a result of the Tory vote splitting between the Tory candidate and a BNP/Orange type of party candidate. That will have introduced a sectarian element into the contest which probably hugely advantaged the Labour candidate.

    304. Tam the Bam. says:

      Dave McEwan Hill…9-49pm

      In truth Dave…I’d be more than surprised if more than 25% of the electorate bothered their proverbials to vote in either (haven’t seen the turnout for either) on such a dreich day as yesterday.

    305. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat @ 19:12, 19:18,

      Saying it twice doesn’t make it any more true. And no need to claim the moral high ground either because you are being challenged on your assumptions. I never intended to be in any way personal as you claim. (And have no need to make cheap jokes about hands clapping either.)

      Thanks for making your position clear on EEA/EFTA. That’s all I asked. It was never clear before, but now we know.

      Just because Mr. Salmond has apparently become a convert to the notion, or even 100 people on here believe it is a good idea, doesn’t automatically make it right. I offered as an example Mr. Salmond’s position on the sterling currency union. (Which I was quoting as a self-evident mistaken compromise as it was being proposed at the time, and nothing to do with the EEA/EFTA option as you mistakenly suggested.) He pushed the proposal well beyond its plausability limit, but even he now generously recognises that it was a mistake. So even he is not infallible.

      The only justification you offer for dropping the full EU option is the hoary old BT lies which have long since been exposed for the empty rubbish they truly are. (If we really were feart of such things, we would never have another referendum.) Even you recognise that something much closer to the reality of what Brexit really means will be very tangible to the public-at-large by the time indyref2 comes around, which blows those old arguments right out of the water.

      On the other hand, EEA/EFTA brings a whole new bunch of untested potential red herrings about sovereignty to the aid of the opposition, and you have roundly ignored those. How would you like to be told, for example, that “2nd class EU citizenship-by-proxy of EEA/EFTA will give the Scots less control over their own affairs than little Wallonia, because via Belgium they will sit at the top table taking decisions while Scotland will be waiting outside”? Such arguments will be manna-from-heaven for the Unionists, who will say we will be exchanging one subservient relationship for an even poorer one!

      You also make presumptions about future funding that are unsubstantiated, and indeed are entirely unsubstantiable. Apple-pie arguments. Yes, an independent Scottish Government might provide equal funding for farmers, but that’s a big might. Who knows? What other of the many financial holes will also need to be filled? This is beginning to sound just like the Great Repeal Bill (Scotland version). As wildly hopeful as the Brexiteers with their Empire 2.0. All offering juicy hostages to fortune and counter-attacks, to be sure.

      Independence will be expensive in the beginning. The SG might not be able to afford all of it. Not on the scale of the EU, for certain, which can offer important transitional assistance, as it has done with other new members. It offers broad shoulders that are proven, not mere empty rhetoric.

      NE fisherfolk seem to think (wrongly) that Brexit within the UK will provide them with a free-for-all, so how will some new and unknown form of international co-operation appeal to such people? Doesn’t seem like a “valid point” at all to me, just wishful thinking.

      And if these diehard rejectionists by some miracle do become disillusioned by Brexit by the time of an indy vote, they could just as likely be convinced of continuity within the EU (their main customer) as anything else.

      Again, you say nothing about all the potential voters your policy will disillusion. All those lovely “No to Yes” videos will have been in vain. =sigh=

      That’s the whole weakness with this approach. Making a vain appeal to converting people who just aren’t listening while ignoring those who are open to being convinced.

      You make the point, and I trust your knowledge of it, that an independent Scotland would have to re-apply for EU membership. Fair enough. But it would equally have to apply for EEA/EFTA membership, so what does that prove? Nothing. Both have clearly indicated that membership would be straightforward, so there’s no issue either way there.

      Lastly, the point you keep on dodging. If we are to decide on our future at an appropriate time, it is in order to have the fullest possible options available. Your proposal to throw away one of the most powerful options we could ever have, and one with which we are already fully compliant, makes no sense whatever.

      It is in effect surrendering a well-entrenched front line for a secondary position of unknown provenance before any attack has even happened. Strategically unsound.

      And dismissing a critique such as this with cheap jibes does your case no credit whatever.

    306. Petra says:

      Has anyone else read the National today? The article ‘Web troll targets Brain family with fake funding page.’

      I’m really busy right now and on my IPad so can’t post the link, but the essence of this is that the page was set up by someone claiming to be STUART CAMPBELL.

    307. Meg merrilees says:

      Ach Rock

      Did ye no bother tae read to the end of Nicola’s speech:

      all of us need to make sure we do everything that is necessary to deliver that kind of world class nation.

      that means you too!

    308. crazycat says:

      @ Dave McEwan Hill

      According to the Daily Record, turnout in Fortissat was 30.7% (rather depressing that my immediate reaction to that was “not bad in the circumstances”!).

      In Cardonald, a more usual 24% is mentioned on reddit.

    309. Tam the Bam. says:

      The answer to your question Petra is yes…I did see it and rang alarm bells with me also…..parody accounts etc., are obviously going to be problematical ..but not insurmountable.. ..in the future.

    310. Meg merrilees says:

      Petra here’s the link to the fake Crowdfunder.

      Apparently it was to raise money to buy them a one-way ticket ‘home’ to Australia.

      sorry, don’t know how to archive.

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/mascot-of-the-universe/comment-page-1/#comment-2298043

    311. Dr Jim says:

      Scotland’s not a country says David Mundell
      Where’s he secretary of state of then

      If we don’t exist neither does he

    312. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      crazycat at 10.14

      That higher turnout at Fortissat is probably the reason for the Labour win and it will nave been a reaction to the outfit that took half the Tory vote.

    313. Robert Louis says:

      Liz g at 812,

      yes, I understand what you say, but NONE of the old laws from the Scots Parliament dictate how the UK parliament can act UK wide. If anything old Scots laws relate only to Scotland. So why should an old English law apply to the whole UK?

      This is not merely a matter of saying we have old Scots laws, and they have theirs, since of course that is true. The Crucial difference here, is that they are using an old English law to impact upon the entire United Kingdom. No Scots law does that in the same way. It is about what the law does.

      I worry when people tell me SNP MP’s walking out is “not a good look”. Are we really so bedded in to doffing our cap to Westminster’s ways? Have SNP MP’s really got so comfy down there? The SNP could learn a helluva lot from sinn fein. They take no sh*t from London, and the SNP should do the same.

      I just don’t understand this whole nicey, nicey approach when Scotland is about to be dragged out of the EU against its wishes, and Scots will have their EU citizenship removed against their wishes. I mean seriously what does Westminster have to do, in order to get some action from the SNP Scot gov??

      In all walks of life, when faced with difficult situations where it can be hard to know which direction to go, we can all come up with legitimate sounding excuses to explain why we shouldn’t act, do nothing, wait and see how things turn out, and that is how I see the SNP right now. Instead of standing up for Scotland, all they keep doing is backtracking, procrastinating and playing it safe. We will be out of the EU, the Scots Parliament will be closed down, and the SNP will still be ‘waiting to see how things turn out’.

      A good example is the legislative consent motion for the repeal bill from Westminster. The FM this week indicated she will not support it being passed. I guarantee, right here and now, that come the day, the SNP will once again back down, and we will hear some legitimate sounding ‘reason’ (excuses) why the Scot gov changed their mind, and we’ll be told that really, it makes no difference, and that we should all keep the faith because the FM ‘has a plan’ etc.. etc..

      Time for waiting is over.

      Sorry, these are desperate times, the damage is being done right now, today, Scotland is getting sh*fted, and people are waiting for some leadership.

    314. crazycat says:

      @ Dave McEwan Hill at 10.44

      Agreed. James Kelly has a couple of articles on the results, which you’ve probably seen, but I’ll put them here for everyone else:

      https://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/could-sort-of-rise-of-busp-be-boon-for.html
      https://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/blow-for-tories-in-fortissat-and.html

    315. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Lenny Hartley @ 17:58,

      I think I’ve addressed at least some of your concerns in my other postings, so I’ll try to keep this one short.

      I don’t know about you, but I’m fed up with politicians whose policies are gleaned solely from focus groups and opinion polls, a la Blair and Broon. I want someone instead to propose a policy based on first principles and sound thinking, and seek to persuade the heretofore unpersuaded by arguing their case well, out of conviction.

      The whole motivation behind this EEA/EFTA proposal however seems to be based on the assumption that by choosing a compromise “third way” it is possible to appeal to the greatest number of people. Your comments appear to underline that assumption.

      Triangulation redux.

      I believe that this assumption is dangerously flawed. I have tried to illustrate this in part by the example of Mr. Salmond’s promotion of the sterling union in indyref1. A compromise that in the event satisfied no-one. (I would not go so far as to claim it single-handedly lost us the vote, but it did hurt a lot.)

      Firstly, on a matter of principle. 62% of voters in Scotland voted to stay in the EU. In a democracy, that has to count for something, does it not?

      Of course, of the others, some were former yes voters. Some have already made clear on WoS an honourable position that despite their preference for “leave”, they would continue to vote “yes”.

      Some on the other hand are false friends – if they have to have another country decide on the single most important aspect of their future for decades to come, they are not genuine supporters of independence, whatever they may say. They are the ones often promoted on the BBC saying they are voting “no”.

      Of the rest, many have been fooled by BritNat propaganda but may yet be persuaded by the realities of Brexit, as many here fully expect to happen. These people are winnable with a clear and honest case for continuity within the EU, because it is the best option.

      It is certainly also a challenge to win over a substantial enough proportion of the majoritarian “remain” voters, many of whom will also have been “no” voters. But they are the most persuadeable of all, given the emerging realities of Brexit and the “leave the EU” lies they were sold on the last time.

      On the other hand, I do not believe, as you assume, that we can necessarly rely on EU citizens or former pro-EU “yes” voters supporting a weaker EEA/EFTA option. Au contraire. If I were a EU citizen, for example, and heard this retrenchment, I would be preparing to pack my bags in the near future instead. Demoralisation of former “yes” voters is a distinct posssibility.

      So even on raw numbers calculations, I believe the easy assumption that triangulation on EEA/EFTA is the answer is fatally flawed, alas.

    316. In ref to the two council by-elections,

      looks like there was a big dip in all party voting figures,

      but Labour vote was topped up by their unnatural yoonyon with the Right wing racist bigot Tory voter to make it look like a revival in the Labour vote.

      Scottish Labour and any leftard are just Tory gimps,brought out the gimp basket by Ruth whenever she feels the need.

    317. Capella says:

      @ Robert Louis – you say that the Sinn Fein approach is better i.e. getting elected but not taking their eats. Can you point to an advantage that this approach has produced. (Given that Northern Ireland is still British and not Irish)

    318. Lenny Hartley says:

      Robert J Sutherland
      Don’t not think that everybody who voted remain voted for their first choice, I know many myself included who voted remain but would favour the EFTA option.

    319. schrodingers cat says:

      thanks for the reply robert, you make some very valid points. but before i address them i would like to point out a few points. I understand the disappointment that very pro eu supporters might find with this approach but whatever position is finally settled upon, not everyone will be happy, ie, you cant please all of the people etc… if it makes you feel better, if nicola does opt for combining indyref2 with eu membership, even though i disagree with this tact (as i did with salmonds currency union stance in indyref1. we share that opinion) i will support it, campaign for it in indyref2.

      perhaps the reason i support salmonds idea is because, in general yes/eu supporters, i find more open, enlightened etc, and by definition, easier and more amenable to rational persuasion that those on the no brexit side. a stereotype for sure but i believe there is some truth in this. and we need to convince another 10% to vote yes to win. and winning is everything here, for both of us.

      Robert J. Sutherland says:
      Saying it twice doesn’t make it any more true.
      A

      I was asked to repost my comment with better punctuation to make it clearer

      and no need to claim the moral high ground either because you are being challenged on your assumptions. I never intended to be in any way personal as you claim.

      I’m not claiming any high ground, merely having a discussion. I also cautioned you about some of your vocabulary, rightly so, it wasnt necessary and only detracts from the points(some are very valed robert) that you make

      (And have no need to make cheap jokes about hands clapping either.)

      another attempt at humour, by me, to lighten the thread falls flat on its face. apologies. i thought it was quite humorous, C’est la vie i suppose

      Thanks for making your position clear on EEA/EFTA. That’s all I asked. It was never clear before, but now we know.

      you’re welcome

      Just because Mr. Salmond has apparently become a convert to the notion, or even 100 people on here believe it is a good idea, doesn’t automatically make it right.

      no, it doesnt. but it might make it snp policy and the manifesto we will fight indyref2 upon.

      I offered as an example Mr. Salmond’s position on the sterling currency union. (Which I was quoting as a self-evident mistaken compromise as it was being proposed at the time, and nothing to do with the EEA/EFTA option as you mistakenly suggested.) He pushed the proposal well beyond its plausability limit, but even he now generously recognises that it was a mistake. So even he is not infallible.

      no arguements there robert, we agree on that. i think a scots pound is pretty much accepted as the way to go in indyref2 by everyone. even if after indyref2 we decide to join as full members of the eu, we will still need a scots pound to be in the ERM2 for 2 years.

      The only justification you offer for dropping the full EU option is the hoary old BT lies which have long since been exposed for the empty rubbish they truly are.

      i offered which hoary BT lies? once again robert, i ask you to stop calling people liars, it does you no favours.

      (If we really were feart of such things, we would never have another referendum.) Even you recognise that something much closer to the reality of what Brexit really means will be very tangible to the public-at-large by the time indyref2 comes around, which blows those old arguments right out of the water.

      i’m sorry robert, i dont follow this

      On the other hand, EEA/EFTA brings a whole new bunch of untested potential red herrings about sovereignty to the aid of the opposition, and you have roundly ignored those.

      you mean we will face an avalanch of bullshit from the media over this? tell me something i dont know. I personally believe that efta/eea gives us a far stronger position to counter this bullshit from the bbc.

      How would you like to be told, for example, that “2nd class EU citizenship-by-proxy of EEA/EFTA will give the Scots less control over their own affairs than little Wallonia, because via Belgium they will sit at the top table taking decisions while Scotland will be waiting outside”? Such arguments will be manna-from-heaven for the Unionists, who will say we will be exchanging one subservient relationship for an even poorer one!

      i would argue that our first priority is to stem the damage being done to our economy by leaving the single market is to ensure membership of the single market via efta/eea membership which a yes vote will ensure. we have already got confirmation of access to efta, as has been pointed out by others on this thread

      You also make presumptions about future funding that are unsubstantiated, and indeed are entirely unsubstantiable. Apple-pie arguments.

      i make no presumptions or apple pie arguements, your comment here is not a valid point, it is a rant

      Yes, an independent Scottish Government might provide equal funding for farmers, but that’s a big might. Who knows?

      you mis understand the point i was making, i’ll clarify. I meant that we can lay out in our indyref2 manifesto assurances to farmers that in the aftermath of a yes vote, and leaving the uk and the eu, that subsidies will continued to be paid as per the eu does and will continue to do in the rest of the eu in the next few years. this is to remove the uncertainty the farmers are currently enduring. we can also give assurences to eu nationals currently facing similar uncertainty.
      you are right tho’ who knows what the next holyrood election will bring, we cannot hold future scottish governments to our spending plans, but i never indended this would be the case, only to remove the immediate uncertainty many people are suffering.

      What other of the many financial holes will also need to be filled?

      you mean……whats my plan B? after indy, i intend to campaign for full eu membership ensuring continued stability and the removale of such financial uncertainty….but that will be acampaign for another day

      This is beginning to sound just like the Great Repeal Bill (Scotland version). As wildly hopeful as the Brexiteers with their Empire 2.0. All offering juicy hostages to fortune and counter-attacks, to be sure.

      um…….

      Independence will be expensive in the beginning. The SG might not be able to afford all of it. Not on the scale of the EU, for certain, which can offer important transitional assistance, as it has done with other new members. It offers broad shoulders that are proven, not mere empty rhetoric.

      i believe scotland is a wealthy country and not the subsidy junkies westminster likes to portray us as. Once independent the true nature of our wealth will be revealed. I believe in the people of scotland are more than capable of rising to any challenges we confront. that isnt empty rhetoric robert.

      NE fisherfolk seem to think (wrongly) that Brexit within the UK will provide them with a free-for-all, so how will some new and unknown form of international co-operation appeal to such people? Doesn’t seem like a “valid point” at all to me, just wishful thinking.

      yup, there are unknowable unknowns, no question, but i disagree about the fisherfolk, they know the ins and outs of the eu situation down to the letter, thats why they voted leave. they dont care about increased tariff barriers, why? cos they are the only people with access to fish in the EU. if the spanish like paella, fine, the scots fishermen will be the only ones who can supply it in the quantities required.fish are only going to become rarer and more expensive in the future,
      It will be our job to make sure they know westminster is selling them down the watter

      And if these diehard rejectionists by some miracle do become disillusioned by Brexit by the time of an indy vote, they could just as likely be convinced of continuity within the EU (their main customer) as anything else.

      what will convince them is that which is in their best interests. you may be unfamiliar with the efta/eea arrangement norway has with the eu, but the ne fishermen are not. It is their job to know such details.

      Again, you say nothing about all the potential voters your policy will disillusion. All those lovely “No to Yes” videos will have been in vain. =sigh=

      I covered this in my into and i believe they will understand the necessity of assuring access to the single market and freedom of movement via efta/eea. Surely the chance of eu membership after indy is better than voting no and being certain of being out of the EU???? i dont follow your logic. er vote no to indy and be 100% of being out of the eu?

      That’s the whole weakness with this approach. Making a vain appeal to converting people who just aren’t listening while ignoring those who are open to being convinced.

      i dont think it is vain. i’m aiming to convert yessers who voted leave and are now nos back to being yesser. i believe this is the right route.

      You make the point, and I trust your knowledge of it, that an independent Scotland would have to re-apply for EU membership. Fair enough. But it would equally have to apply for EEA/EFTA membership, so what does that prove? Nothing. Both have clearly indicated that membership would be straightforward, so there’s no issue either way there.

      yes there is. to join efta we only need the 4 countries in efta to agree. hint they already have and will do so again during indyref2.
      eea membership via article 50 only requires a majority, via article 49 it requires all 27 countries to agree. this is probably why salmond didnt mention eea only the single market, etc, the difference between the 2 are lost on most people, it is enough to argue for access to the single market in indyref2, as i said, we dont need another 650 page manifesto.

      Lastly, the point you keep on dodging. If we are to decide on our future at an appropriate time, it is in order to have the fullest possible options available. Your proposal to throw away one of the most powerful options we could ever have, and one with which we are already fully compliant, makes no sense whatever.

      i’m not sure what you are alluding to here. is it the timing of indyref2? i’m not throwing it away, i’m giving that to nicola.
      if it is the eu membership we have, then the ruk have already thrown that away, that isnt even an option for the uk now, let alone an indy scotland.

      It is in effect surrendering a well-entrenched front line for a secondary position of unknown provenance before any attack has even happened. Strategically unsound.

      i spent 6 years in the army, retreat is the best form of defense.I may not be very brave but you’d be amazed at how smart I am.

      And dismissing a critique such as this with cheap jibes does your case no credit whatever.

      i’ll leave you to the jibes robert, and others to decide whose posts are the cheapest

    320. Ken500 says:

      If Sin Fein turned up none of this would be happening. May would be out. Will soon be in any case. It could finish the Tory Party off. Donations/support could dry up. CBI, Business, banks are going wild with complaints. If SNP did not turn up Scotland’s interests would not be adressed. The Tories faces every time the SNP ask a question. Feart. Ireland can vote to reunite. Scotland can vote for Independence. DUP now under the spotlight. Paisley fraud. Illegal undeclared donations and holidays. Problems mounting up.

      Sin Fein can’t be too bothered they could bring May/Tories down. Neutralise the DUP. They just let them bring themselves down because the Irish border had to be maintained. A Irish Green has organised a crowd funded to that May/Tories to court for breaching the Stormont agreement by bribing the DUP. The DUP get no bribe money unless power sharing reconvenes. Problems mounting up.

      The Independence vote has to stand alone. That is the mandate. Any other issues can be dealt with separately. People who want full EU membership (majority) might not vote for EFTA but would accept it (temporarily) as a price for Independence. It confuses the issue, Too important to confuse but could be accepted through representative negotiations.

      Scotland (the Union) is changing going on another course already. FFA/Independence. Gradually or by Referendum. Smoothly. Scotland has never had better governance. Doing well and could do better.

    321. yesindyref2 says:

      Perhaps basically speaking, the way during the General Election the Tories and Labour and the LibDems banged on about the second independence referendum, the people of Scotland are sick to death hearing about it. The SNP have recognised this and are giving it a rest for a time.

      But meantime since many voted for the SNP basically because of Independence they are sick to death of NOT hearing about Independence from the SNP so they don’t bother voting for them.

      So basically SNP Bad whichever side of Indy you’re on!

      Ah well, they should be used to it by now.

    322. Liz g says:

      Robert Lewis 10.47
      In drawing and having the proverbial line in the sand.
      One that says this far and no farther.
      You will get nae argument from me there Robert!
      I also don’t subscribe to the first minister has a cunning plan narritive.
      Mainly because she has said…go convince enough people to demand Independence and I will deliver it….

      In this instance I am only taking about the Henry VIII law’s..
      That particular Law has no effect on Scotland in and of itself.

      That law is invoked to be a method by which other laws are made or added to,by the Westminster Parliament.
      And they are entitled to have whatever law’s they want!
      One example mentioned in the Westminster debate the other day was…..when a New substance surfaces and is being used as a “Leagal” high,the Henry the VIII law’s are used to add it to the banned list to make it into an illegal substance without the delay that would occur in using normal Parliamentary process…….
      Now having to keep law’s up to date with how quickly modern drug dealers update their products,by using a 15th century law.
      Says much about Westminster……but it is their problem.

      Our problem is as it always was.
      We don’t have to live under this system and we need to convince enough people we would be better not doing so!

      I am taking the view that the knowledge of this law’s being used against us and the other people’s on these islands can and will be used by us in the Indy campaign.
      I don’t much care if the English allow Westminster to keep it after we’re gone,but right now it’s being portrayed as a bad Law and not by us,we can use that!

      And please don’t misunderstand me I am not against bringing our MP’s home because it’s a bad look.
      But rather because that would be the option of last resort and I am not convinced that we are there yet,or that it would succeed in achieving Independence.

      As I have said this law’s been used before and while we don’t know for certain what will trigger Indy ref 2,I can’t see it being this.
      But I do share your frustration,and hope we will be good to go soon.

    323. schrodingers cat says:

      robert says

      I do not believe, as you assume, that we can necessarly rely on EU citizens or former pro-EU “yes” voters supporting a weaker EEA/EFTA option. Au contraire. If I were a EU citizen, for example, and heard this retrenchment, I would be preparing to pack my bags in the near future instead. Demoralisation of former “yes” voters is a distinct posssibility.
      ——————

      so you would vote no in indyref2 and ensure you would leave the eu rather than yes and give yourself a chance at eu membership.

      complete havers robert.

    324. yesindyref2 says:

      Any danger of people keeping their postings to about a half screen, rather than 5 screens full? My page down button is getting worn out.

    325. schrodingers cat says:

      robert
      you also argue that eu citizens in scotland who are currently being threatened with deportation will vote no and continue in this uncertainty rather than vote yes with efta guarenteed which ensures free movement and their rights to stay in an indy scotland?

      this makes no sense robert.

    326. schrodingers cat says:

      soz dads

      got carried away

      i’ll stick to one liners from now on.

    327. schrodingers cat says:

      Ken500 says:

      If Sinn Fein turned up none of this would be happening.

      probably, but the arithmitic doesnt agree, assuming all tories and dup vote for the bill and lab,lib,green,snp,independent vote against

      but that wont happen,even so, the odds are this bill will pass with or without SF members.

      I have it on very good authority that SF wont turn up……. but……..
      it has been pointed out that this bill is contrary to the act of union and the devolution bill. it can and probably will be challenged legally.
      unfortunatey, the recent change of authority of the supreme court over scots law(also against the treaty of the union i might add) will probably ensure westminster wins.

      at what point in this process do snp mps walk out of westminster?

      it is an option, but one we can only use once, and it isnt without its drawbacks, we would lose what little voice we have in the msm.

      it is coming close to the moment that this happens, is now the moment? would SF come to westminster for this vote, prostitute themselves to the queen, on the promise that if the bill passes, SF will walk out the door with 35 snp mps?

      high stakes indeed

      the unionists have moved to the right and become far more radical……. should we?

      if the bill passes, the union is legally over and mundell’s opinion becomes reality, scotland ceases to exist, becomes ” lesser england” like catalonia where spain decides whether they can have a referendum, sends in the polis to shut down printing companies who are printing ballot papers and where the provost of north lanarkshire refuses to participate in the referendum

      what do we do then mes amis?

    328. ian murray says:

      Another Lion roars
      This guy rips the Herald a new one in the style of a certain blogger we know.
      So Scotland is too wee and too poor and according to The Herald getting smaller.
      http://euanmearns.com/the-terrifying-risk-of-climate-change-in-scotland/

    329. Dr Jim says:

      Internal polling shows us that EU citizens 180.000 of them would vote YES at the next Indyref, But and it’s a big but Theresa May is attempting to remove their voting rights in order to thwart that aim, although she claims it’s for different reasons

      So many SNP members are proposing a change to the franchise by making it Scots born only to have voting rights
      The point being if Mrs May can try to rig an election Scotland can respond accordingly

      It’s not the way things should be but members can see what’s coming and by the way much as I think Alex Salmond is the man he has the same power as me in the SNP and that’s one vote as does everybody in the party, and that’s who decides stuff, the members not the executive they only have one vote too

      The SNP isn’t the Labour party where the ones in charge rig everything to suit themselves

      That’s why I like the SNP, wee me gets allowed an opinion
      although I don’t know what my opinion will be on this stuff until it’s proposed, it’ll take a bit of thinking for sure,
      but who knows things are changing daily I’m just waiting for William the Conquerer to be sent up to quell us next and the stupidity over Norn Ireland is about to blow up as well

    330. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat @ 11:50:

      i offered which hoary BT lies? once again robert, i ask you to stop calling people liars, it does you no favours.

      What? Oh please. I didn’t say that you were offering any lies. No need to be so prickly. You were claiming that the same old anti-EU BT lies would be regurgitated by our opponents in indyref2. I find that very unlikely to succeed, if tried. (I assume that you aren’t actually claiming that there weren’t any BT lies.) And that’s merely due to the better understanding we have reached of what has already passed. I honestly also don’t see how you aren’t able to follow that ongoing Brexit developments will further expose any attempted anti-EU case to the point of destruction. This is an open goal, dammit.

      As to your point of Scottish resources, I agree that before long we will be well able to pay our way. But if you think you can approach indyref2 with a raft of offers to maintain EU levels of subsidy unharmed across the board, you will rightly invite derision from our opponents. Such an offer will be torn to ribbons as untenable. The pensions issue alone will be hard enough to defend without multiplying it n-fold.

      As to the blithe calculation that all former “yes” voters will stick with a second-rate option while supposedly attracting former “no’s, I beg to disagree. With reasons, as previuously enunciated but not addressed.

      This kind of easy triangulation is exactly what I find most untrustworthy about the whole proposal.

    331. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat @ 00:04,

      Och, of course the position as you stated it makes no sense. But it’s a complete distortion, actually. What I was saying is that if you expect EU citizens currently resident here to happily sit tight in order to vote for a second-class option, you are hoping for too much. Much more likely that of their own free will, they will see such an inadequate offer for the shabby deal that it is, lose heart, and plan their future elsewhere.

      Maybe many native-born Scots also. A free trade area may be all fine and dandy for business interests, but what does it do for ordinary people’s citizenship rights? Nada. We are just dumped by the roadside as unfortunate collateral damage.

      Just watch all those “No to Yes” videos again. How many of those folks, and many more ordinary people like them, do you think will be encouraged by a proposal that effectively robs them of all their rights? Just to try to win back a few intractables?!

    332. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, 149 Hamishes now claimed. I hope it’s more than a limited edition of 150 … I’ve got mine ordered, have you?

    333. yesindyref2 says:

      @ian murray
      Rob Edwards always did go too far, but then he iswas the environment correspondent / editor. It at least draws attention to an issue. Snow off the hills really did happen worse than ever, a disaster for some dependent businesses who didn’t get a winter bounce, some my customers.

    334. yesindyref2 says:

      @cat
      Happens!

      You and RJS – there will be and needs to be a debate about EU versus EFTA, and The National having had Salmond, today has Alyn Smith. Both views need to be heard, and the reasons for them. For me Indy Ref 2 needs to be clearly about Independence, with as little distraction on other issues as possible. So for me a Ref as open-ended as possible considering that the mandate to hold it IS losing EU membership, is the best course. A fudge to make it single market membership however that’s done can help, perhaps.

    335. meg merrilees says:

      Petra re my post at 10.15pm

      Seems I posted a spoof link – sorry.

      Here’s the link to the article re the fake Crowdfunder in the name of Stuart Campbell to raise money for a one-way ticket home for the Brain family.

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/15522632.Web_troll_targets_Brain_family_with_fake_funding_page/?ref=mr&lp=6

      Some pretty sick people out there.

      Can’t sleep so catching up on the thread and spotted my error.

      Where are you Cactus – you’re usually awake and posting at this time of night?

    336. Robert Peffers says:

      Anyone noticed this little gem on the news?
      It looks very sinister to me.

      Anyone else got an opinion to offer?

      the BBC heading reads:-

      “Beware of social media during terror events.”

      the item then goes on:-

      NHS staff and terror attack victims and their families have been warned about the risks of using social media in new guidelines issued by NHS England.

      The guide cautions that internet trolls may subject victims to, “vile and upsetting abuse”, as was seen after the Manchester and London terror attacks.

      it also warns of people to be wary of journalists seeking accounts of events.

      The process of retelling a story can make people, relive the worse parts£, of horrific events, it warns.”

      Never mind the more sinister connotations of suppression of freedom of speech that I can see in that English NHS attack upon both journalists and social media.

      I’m no expert, but are not all methods used by mental health professionals centred around NOT bottling such horrific things up but instead dragging then out into the open and thus mentally dealing with the resultant mental health problem of bottling them up?

      Is not their mantra that suppressing such things is what causes mental health problems for victims of all sorts of things in the future?

      I’d venture a guess that NHS England is more concerned about the problems of NHS England than the potential problems of those involved in terrorist attacks.

    337. Breeks says:

      For S Cat and RJS…

      Nana says:
      9 September, 2017 at 7:50 am
      Links

      http://www.alynsmith.eu/scotland_in_europe_update_8th_september_2017

      Another standing ovation for Alyn Smyth here in my little kitchen.

      I’m watching your debate, not wanting to inflame it, but before I would give more time to the notion of EFTA and Customs Union compromise, I would genuinely ask those who propose what actually IS a soft Brexit, to reconcile the issue of sovereignty as delivered in the 2016 Brexit referendum.

      It doesn’t wash that it was a UK wide referendum, nor a referendum to keep the UK in Europe not just Scotland. The sovereign people of Scotland properly expressed a democratic choice to remain in the EU, and if you respect the sovereignty of the Scottish people, then that decision is sovereign and binding. So, in consequence, I would ask you the direct question, do you or do you not respect Scotland’s sovereignty?

      Second, the EU has explicitly said there will be no cherry picking of EU membership privileges, and thus to a very large extent, the UK has deluded itself about the consolation prize of poor-man’s Brexit, but it has never reconciled how this soft Brexit option squares with an EU resolutely opposed to cherry picking the easy or most lucrative options. If a soft Brexit is beyond the capacity of the UK to conjure up, then why is Scotland, and not just Scotland but Scotland as a sub-sovereign non-state still in the UK, in a stronger bargaining position than the UK?

      I “get” that you want to nurture support from EuroSkeptics, but I simply cannot reconcile those arguments with due respect for Scottish sovereignty, nor with the EU’s adopted stance towards soft Brexit concessions which the EU is not going to extend. The EU understands Brexit is an act of self harm, and it seems perfectly clear the EU feels little obligation to mitigate the injury the UK is determined to suffer upon itself, no doubt as a quid pro quo response to the UK’s Brexit indifference about whether Brexit would or wouldn’t damage the EU.

      If Scotland finds itself on the wrong side of the Brexit divide when the wall goes up, and Brexit occurs, I fear some of us are deluding ourselves about the sympathy we might expect from Europe after we have so cheaply abandoned an automatic EU membership which could have been made safe merely by playing our Sovereignty card.

      I would appeal to all EFTA advocates, which would you prefer for Scotland? EU membership and sovereignty? Or EFTA membership as a hard won regional dispensation without sovereignty?

    338. Tinto Chiel says:

      Robert Peffers @ 10.12: heard this on Pravdasound4 this morning and immediately thought the same, but then I’m a suspicious old cove.

      I have noticed recently an increase in BBC Radio references to trolling on social media and the conflation of social media output with fake news.

      “BBC attacks fake news”: oh, the irony!

    339. Petra says:

      @ Meg at 3:31am ….. ‘Fake crowdfunding’.

      Thanks for doing that Meg. There’s some really sick people out there. I see that the fake web page called the Brain family “the SNP poster family” and “spongers.” Just Giving have stated that they’ve had no complaints about the page and that they’ve shut it down. Surely the Police should be looking into the activities of the individual so-called ‘Stuart Campbell’?

      The Brain family need another £12000 to cover further legal costs and Home Office fees. I know we’re being asked to support one site after another right now but this won’t go on for ever. Another year or so, imo. Don’t let the Home Office get away with this. If you feel you can help the family, check out https://www.justgiving.com/crowd-funding/gregg-brain

    340. Petra says:

      Well “that’s a bit of a mystery”, as they say on their site, right enough!

      I can’t find anything to do with the Brain family on the Just Giving site at all.

    341. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Breeks @ 10:19,

      Trying to be fair to the EEA/EFTA advocates like cat, I think they have moved on from the previous compromise deal offered by the SG to remain in the UK, and instead they believe that we can gain more popular support than lose it when heading for indyref2 by arguing for EEA/EFTA rather than full retention of EU membership. (With some hope dangled of an upgrade afterwards to keep doubters pacified.)

      Some may argue this out of anti-EU conviction, but I suspect that for many it is a purely pragmatic choice. It is possibly coming to the fore now as a consequence of the SNP loss of seats in the last UKGE, which seems to have unduly rattled some in the SNP, especially the WM contingent.

      I would counter-argue that their contention is at best unproven, and possibly even horribly wrong. A “falling between two stools” mistake. And not even necessary, because the looming showdown between the EU27 and the UK will finally demonstrate, I believe, that the 62% EU remainers were right all along.

      Plus as you say, to pre-empt any possibility of support from the EU27 is to throw away a unique opportunity. Maybe even a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    342. Juan P says:

      OT but to clarify a point that a few folk were debating re the new social security offence proposed by the Scottish Government.

      Inclusion of the words “knew or ought to have known” isn’t much of a change at all, in terms of the mens rea that has to be established, from the current UK legislation that covers benefit fraud. (Social security administration Act 1992)

      The CPS guidance for prosecutors in England and Wales explains that you can evidence the requisite knowledge under the SSAA 1992 through proof of subjective knowledge on the part of the accused or on the basis that the accused is wilfully turning a blind eye:

      Knowledge”

      Implied knowledge for the summary offences includes actual subjective knowledge proven by evidence but it may also include wilful blindness. It is always open to a tribunal of fact to base a finding of knowledge on evidence that the defendant had deliberately shut his eyes to the obvious or refrained from inquiry because he suspected the truth but did not want to have his suspicion confirmedWestminster City Council v Croyalgrange Ltd 83 Cr. App. R.155

      In practice this just means you can prove a benefit fraud currently if you can establish that the accused knew or ought to have known that the information they gave to the dwp qas false or that they had to notify them of a change of circumstances.

      The newspaper article on this point is just anti-snp hyperbole. None of those quoted, including the lawyers, have any extensive practical knowledge of investigating, reporting, prosecuting or defending benefit fraud offences in Scotland.

      Put bluntly they are havering shite.

    343. yesindyref2 says:

      @Breeks
      There are two distinct constitutional memberships for Scotland. First is membership of the UK, second is membership of the EU. There are therefore 4 combinations of this:

      1. in the UK and in the EU
      2. in the UK and out of the EU
      3. out of the UK and in the EU
      4. out of the UK and out of the EU.

      In the Indy Ref 55% voted for option 1. In the EU Ref 62% voted also for option 1. But the UK is leaving the EU, so that option no longer exists.

      But that still leaves the options 2, 3 and 4 – it can’t be presumed that the 62% would vote for being in the EU but out of the UK – it’s a totally different combination from in the EU and in the UK. The 62% voted for option 1, but gave no opinion on option 3.

    344. Breeks says:

      Incorrect Yesindyref2.

      Scotland made a clear and decisive sovereign decision having been asked binary question.

      You are trying to turn a referendum into a plebiscite after the event.

      Stop doing it please. Our Sovereignty is much more valuable and powerful than an ephemeral whim of democracy.

    345. yesindyref2 says:

      @Breeks
      Sorry, I’m completely right. It’s basic set theory in terms of logic, and mapping sets. Being in the UK and being in the EU are two totally distinct decisions, and give 4 combinations.

      Individual people may see our decision differently, for instance in Indy Ref I voted for 3 and 4 but mostly 3, the question didn’t specify EU membership. In the EU Ref I voted for 3, but my vote would in terms of the wording be seen as a vote for 1 – which is clearly wrong, but the best I could do with a single question referendum.

      There is no clarity of WHAT IS the Sovereign will of the Scottish people until another referendum, which ideally would include options 2, 3 and 4, but is unlikely to as that would make the campaigns confusing.

    346. Liz g says:

      Juan p @2.28
      Thanks for that clarification Juan.
      I think we all knew it was spin
      But it’s great to have the correct rebuttal

    347. Breeks says:

      Let me turn it around in that case. What sovereign authority does Westminster have to withdraw Scotland from Europe against the explicit will of the people properly expressed through democratic process?

      If you insist our sovereignty is too woolly, too old and fuddy-duddy , too negotiable or simply non-existent to be any good to us, then please enlighten me, where does Westminster draw upon a crystal clear unambiguous sovereignty to govern us and overrule our democratic opinion?

      The whole precedence of Scottish sovereignty, our history as an independent nation, the whole matrix of our separate law, our education and religion is all bound up into a compelling argument, backed by the actually documention and centuries of convention that the people of Scotland are sovereign.

      I would like to see the weight of arguments that the people of Scotland are sovereign formally compared to weight of counter-arguments that asserts we are not.

      But right now, at this moment in time, the position of the SNP and soft/reluctant Brexiteers opting for EFTA is lending credence to the Unionist argument that we are not sovereign, rather than a) defending our sovereignty, and b) requiring Westminster to validate the source of its presumed sovereignty. That, in my opinion is a lamentable position, a dangerous position, and an act which I have already described as gross constitutional negligence.

      Defend our sovereignty at all costs, whatever impact that has upon democratic opinion. Otherwise losing a vote and thereby wilfully forfeiting sovereignty is unpardonable stupidity. Compromise wherever you like, but not with our sovereignty.

      YESRef in 2014 tested our democratic will to be Independent. Not our sovereignty. Brexit tested our democratic will to stay in Europe. Not our sovereignty. However, Westminster dragging Scotland out of Europe against our will is the action which properly does test our sovereignty, and it MUST be fought on those terms, and the fight must be won on those terms.

    348. yesindyref2 says:

      @Breeks
      What sovereign authority does Westminster have to withdraw Scotland from Europe against the explicit will of the people properly expressed through democratic process?

      Exactly, that’s got it in a oner. Westminster doesn’t, but we still don’t know what IS the Sovereign will of the Scottish People, as laid down in various Claims of Rights.

      It does mean regardless of what the SNP or Scottish Government might or might not want to do, there MUST be a further referendum to test what the sovereign will of the Scottish People is, how do we want to proceed when confronted with a constitutional crisis which BEGAN on 23rd June 2016, and is still ongoing, despite media reports that there would be one over Sewel or if the Scottish Parliament rejected the repeal act.

      We are already in the midst of a constitutional crisis, and I Claim My Right to decide as one of 4.1 million voters, 5.4 million citizens, to decide the form of government best suited to the Scottish People. Let no politician stand in my way.

      We agree, Breeks, but in different ways.

    349. William Wallace says:

      @Vestas – what is the following quote all about?

      “I don’t really have a lot of time for people who want to hide who owns a domain, they’re usually dodgy as fuck. People who NEED to hide their identity due to fear of death/torture then fair enough.”

      Was that a veiled reference to me then fella since I asked you the question initially?

      There are plenty of reasons for keeping a pro-indy domain ownership private to be perfectly honest. There are a lot of Yoon zoomers out there who I’d prefer not to have my home address for example. It has nothing to do with being “dodgy as fuck”.

      Our domain for business is fully open in terms of who-is enquiries and other domain certification at our registered business address. I am fine with that as I like our company to be as transparent as possible in order that customers know who they are dealing with.

      On a personal level however, I would not like my home address falling into the wrong hands for obvious reasons, hence the need for domain privacy for a pro-indy platform.

      Feel free to cast aspersions on my good character though 🙂 Cheers mate!!!

    350. yesindyref2 says:

      @William Wallace
      I registered a couple of pairs (.com and .co.uk) domains for Indy back in 2012 (scotfaq and indyfaq), and they were not only totally private, but didn’t even have my own micro-company’s DNS which is of course traceable (I have my own dedicated server and run BIND / Apache / Sendmail on Fedora Linux). I left them as domainmonster DNS and even their free webspace rather than pointing it to mine. My business would have lost NO voting customers if it was known I was not only a YES voter, but an Indy activist, and there were a few on the Herald did some stalking and tried to “out” me.

      In the event I did nothing really with the domains and have since dropped them.

    351. William Wallace says:

      @ yesindy

      You only have to look at the threats made to Jason Michael a couple of days ago when writing in response to the absolutely abhorrent abuse directed at DefiAye on social media to reach the conclusion that, not only is privacy on a pro indy domain preferential – it is absolutely essential.

      There are Orange Order Yoon Zoomers out there with links to paramilitary groups who in turn are probably linked to certain members of the British establishment.

      That’s before you even take into account the various other random nutters out there who might take offence at anything that was said on a pro indy platform and come looking for the owner(s).

      As a family man that is a risk I am certainly not willing to take.

    352. Breeks says:

      “We agree, Breeks, but in different ways”.

      Genuinely sorry, but no we don’t.

    353. Rock says:

      Meg merrilees,

      “Ach Rock

      Did ye no bother tae read to the end of Nicola’s speech:

      …all of us need to make sure we do everything that is necessary to deliver that kind of world class nation.”

      A lie is a lie.

      Starting with “Scotland is the best place in the world to grow up in and be educated” is totally dishonest.

      It is similar to the lying headlines in the unionist rags.

      The headline has to be true, not a lie followed by qualifications later on.

      As I said Nicola really must stop flogging dead horses and instead highlight what we could make better by becoming independent.

    354. yesindyref2 says:

      @William Wallace
      Indeed, I can add to that a reasonably local one I heard about but wouldn’t go into. Yes, family safety first, and preserving income to put food on the table. Not always easy even without such hassle!

      @Breeks
      Yes we do agree – we agree to differ 🙂



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