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Anarchy in the rUK

Posted on March 24, 2019 by

Well, hopefully there won’t be too much of that, as we’ve got a sitter in to keep the Separats in check while we’re away. But activity on Wings will probably be a little sparse over the next few days, for hopefully-obvious reasons.

There’s a limit on how much we’ll be able to say about the case, and chances to post on the site will be restricted in general, but we’ll try to keep on top of any important events. Normal service will be resumed ASAP. In the meantime, behave yourselves.

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    1227 to “Anarchy in the rUK”

    1. galamcennalath says:

      Liam says:

      Gay people and straight people can adopt ‘lifestyles’ at odds with their true nature. Doesn’t necessarily make them hypocrites. But, I’d guess it’s fair to say, it’s more likely to make them unhappy.

      Indeed. Pressures to conform to sexual ‘norms’ in the recent past were enormous. And that included the law, if you go back further. Folks shouldn’t make judgements about those who felt/feel forced to hide who they really are. It’s a failure of society, not the individuals.

    2. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Proud Cybernat beat me to it, but, that was a beauty of a reference on the Leader of the Scottish Liberal-Democrats in court today.

      I think, going forward, we should all heed the words of the erudite and learned Craig Robert Kindness Sandison QC, and refer to Willie Rennie as: “The Inconsequential Willie Rennie.”

      That title, I feel, sort of suits the wee nyaff.

    3. Dr Jim says:

      Political ideology is so difficult to intellectualise to people who don’t know what ideology is but they do know what they like

      Hee Hee!

    4. sandy says:

      Just a thought.

      England out of the EU. Subsequently, it discovers down the line that it had made a big, big mistake.
      Elected English parliament decides to reapply for EU membership. EU decides that it doesn’t satisfy EU criteria &, more seriously, has not fulfilled its’ huge debt to Scotland.
      Where then, England? UN hand-outs of flour & rice. Gove as president riding around in a bulletproof car with neckless armed bodyguards instructed to shoot to kill.

      Beyond imagination?

    5. galamcennalath says:

      Nigel Farage, Question Time, 2016. …. “I hear people say, wouldn’t it be terrible if we were like Norway or Switzerland? Really? They are rich, they are happy and they are self-governing countries. “

      An interesting wee reminder that the Leave sales pitch was not the hard or ‘no deal’ Brexit which has been normalised!

    6. CameronB Brodie says:

      Some stuff on sexuality, which is embodied and so, subsequently, complicated.

      Social exchange theories and sexuality

      Abstract

      Social Exchange Theory is one of the social science theories that have been applied to the study of human sexuality. This theoretical perspective is of particular relevance for understanding sexuality as it is negotiated between two people who have a relationship with each other.

      In this article, I describe three specific social exchange models with particular relevance to sexuality: equity theory (e.g., Walster, Walster, & Berscheid, 1978), the Investment Model (Rusbult, 1980, 1983), and the Interpersonal Model of Sexual Satisfaction (Lawrance & Byers, 1992, 1995). Then, I discuss how the general social exchange perspective or one of the more specific exchange models/theories has been applied to five topics that focus on sexuality within a relational context: (a) partner selection, (b) onset of sexual activity, (c) sexual satisfaction, (d) sexual initiation and refusal, and (e) extradyadic sexual behavior.

      https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00224499809551915

      What Scientists Know—And Don’t Know—About Sexual Orientation
      https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/releases/what-scientists-know-and-dont-know-about-sexual-orientation.html

      The Science Of Sexuality Still Needs Social Science
      https://www.the-scientist.com/opinion-old/the-science-of-sexuality-still-needs-social-science-58648

      Sociology: Gender, Sexuality and Society
      http://gsss.uva.nl/content/masters/sociology-gender-sexuality-and-society/gender-sexuality-and-society.html

    7. SilverDarling says:

      Labour recommending abstention on Joanna Cherry motion L.

    8. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Sinky @ 16:58,

      Naw, it’s because they have a very special cunning plan of their own. (!)

      Which seems to boil down to “never mind what Conference decided, just keep on supporting Brexit while denouncing the Tories for doing it”.

      If Corbyn was a straight-out hard lefty, I might disagree with at least some of it, but I would respect him for it. What I can’t stand is his deviousness and shiftiness. You have no idea what he really believes about anything. His alibi that he is merely the passive agent of Conference-set policy is a self-evident sham. He is the very opposite of “what you see is what you get”.

      And I’m by no means alone in sensing that either.

    9. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dr Jim / @jfngw
      Yes, here’s what Dunlop said according to Sim:

      Mr Dunlop asks if it is really the case that no honest person could believe this tweet homophobic? He says Colin Macfarlane, Patrick Harvie, Nicola Sturgeon, David Mundell and Kezia Dugdale all did. Even Mr Campbell says someone could (given he said they’d be dishonest OR stupid)

      But from memory that’s wrong. They condemned homophobia, without specific reference to the Rev’s tweet. But I might have that wrong.

    10. Bobp says:

      Donald tusk saying that the EU cannot betray the increasing number of people who want to remain in the EU. Brexiteers going mental.

    11. Legerwood says:

      Dr Jim says:
      27 March, 2019 at 1:01 pm
      @Legerwood 12:41pm

      “”It’s the Herald, nothing reasonable and measured about them…””

      Would not disagree with anything you wrote. I keep aan eye on the Herald just to keep tabs on what they, and the green ink brigade are up to. There are days when the letters pages are full on green ink.

      But it is a long, long, long time since I have ever treated any newspaper as a primary source on any important topic. In fact I am not sure if I ever did.

      But still keep an eye on them then you know what information to gather to counteract their nonsense when someone starts spouting it.

    12. Dr Jim says:

      Yesindyref2 5:21pm

      I remember well the day Kezia Dugdale pulled that stunt thinking she was laying some sort of trap for the FM by including her in her stupid wee smear WOS game but all the FM did was to condemn homophobia, nothing more

      Dugdale would need to get up much earlier in the morning to pull that bit of muslin over the FMs eyes

    13. Robert Peffers says:

      @Gary says: 27 March, 2019 at 4:04 pm:

      “… Just saw the last bit of pish you wrote, about me being a unionist?? Get your fuckin facts straight pal!!! iove been a member of the SNP for 35 years!! thats rifght 35 years dickheed!!!!!
      open your head before you open your mouth or hit the keyboard you keyboard warrior”

      So what, Gary? I’ve been with them for over 70 years. That has absolutely nothing to do with it. The point is you have very wrong views that are very decidedly unionist views.

      Now everyone is entitled to hold whatever views the care to hold. That doesn’t make them right, though. What is more you typically resorted to insults and that is neither debate nor argument.

      Now get this. I did not just say you were wrong – I also offered proof that you were. The other point is the things you got wrong are the very things the Westminster Establishment uses as propaganda to brainwash independence people with.

      For example the claim that Spain would veto any Scottish application to join the EU. Gary – that never happened as the Spanish PM made a public statement that Spain would not. I pointed out that whole pack of lies came from a former Portuguese politician who became an EC, (Not an EU), employee. Barrosso made these claims and the unionist MSM & Broadcasters have ran with it ever since.

      Yet here you are on Wings spreading unionist propaganda. Here is a self evident fact that proves Spain would not be daft enough to do something to upset Scotland. Spain has the biggest fishing fleet in the EU and Fishing is the biggest thing in their economy, (with perhaps tourism).

      The Scottish coastline is the longest coastline in Europe and that means Scotland has Europe’s biggest territorial waters and Spain relies upon access to Scottish fishing grounds. So why would Spain ever want Scotland outside the EU for then they would be banned from fishing in Scottish waters. Do you think the Spanish Government are daft? Fascist maybe – daft certainly not.

      So here you go – just where did you get the idea that Spain would block an independent Scotland from EU entry when Spain has never ever claimed they would? The answer has to be MSM propaganda.

    14. Proud Cybernat says:

      What the First Minister said re WoS tweet:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPYQY41hVP4

    15. Robert Peffers says:

      Here’s a wee bombshell from 20 minutes ago in the HOC:-

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRyCG3X3zuE

    16. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Proud Cybernat @ 17:33,

      Hmmm, there it is on the record. Wonder =ahem= why Dunlop didn’t include that as part of his case, instead of merely adding a throwaway reference in his summing-up?

    17. CameronB Brodie says:

      Bobp
      There’s a bit more froth to be wrung out of (white) British nationalism. 🙂

    18. K1 says:

      Right it’s looking like May has given the ERG the impetus to vote for her deal as she’s confirming that she will step down before phase 2 begins…now it will be up to the DUP or red tories to support her deal to get it through.

      But Bercow as you all know has clarified and doubled down that she/government can’t bring the MV back in it’s current form, so not sure how that plays out and whether they can find some standing orders to go around Bercow, believing that her deal is ‘now’ a winner.

      It ain’t finished yet, listening to the new ‘indicative’ motions in commons right now, not sure whether any consensus can be formed around any that are being debated, tonight we’ll have a clearer idea. But this ‘breaking news’ schtick from May will push her deal back up the agenda with the Tories circling and trying to get ‘their’ next leader in place in tandem with trying to get the WA through.

      If they can’t get the DUP, watch out for Labour muppets like Hoey backing May’s deal to ensure ‘UKexit’, which is what many on the Labour backbenches are still minded to go for.

    19. Robert Peffers says:

      Here is another rather telling one from the EU:-

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGSjlOVzRAI

    20. Dr Jim says:

      Kezia Dudgale was attempting to draw the FM into condemning WOS and or Stuart Campbell but the FM was clear it was Homophobia and abuse she was condemning not WOS or Stuart Campbell

      The FM was absolutely correct Dugdale was using her own personal grudge as a political weapon to deflect from herself and garner support for a stick to beat WOS with

      And she got nowhere

    21. CameronB Brodie says:

      Proud Cybernat
      I’m not sure if I can full support the First Minister’s view regarding what is and what isn’t acceptable as political discourse. I’m not calling for open prejudice, far from it. I’m simply pointing to the fact that an individual’s moral taste is largely socially constructed.

      DIstInctIon
      A social Critique of the
      Judgement of Taste

      https://monoskop.org/images/e/e0/Pierre_Bourdieu_Distinction_A_Social_Critique_of_the_Judgement_of_Taste_1984.pdf

      Does Taste Still Serve Power? The Fate of Distinction
      in Britain

      https://www.rivisteweb.it/download/article/10.2383/25945

      Bourdieu’s Class Theory
      https://catalyst-journal.com/vol1/no2/bourdieu-class-theory-riley

      Bourdieu and Social Movements: Considering Identity Movements in Terms of Field, Capital and Habitus
      https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14742837.2012.704174?src=recsys

    22. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      The Revoke A.50 petition is still steadily clocking up the numbers, I see. Wouldn’t be surprised if it has surpassed 6M by “debate day” in a few days’ time.

      But according to the Tories, there’s “no demand for another referendum”.

      If you’re deliberately not looking, at least. Then it’s easy.

    23. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      K1 @ 17:50,

      Yes, I can still see (some) Labour MPs being the ones to seal May’s dirty deal. With a nod-and-a-wink from that old rebel geezer who is supposedly in charge of them.

    24. jfngw says:

      After May’s attempt, with the carrot, to bribe MP’s with money failed, her plan B is now the stick, back me or I’ll never go.

    25. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m not criticising the First Minister, her response was off-the-cuff and made on-the-hoof. That’s thinking on your feet.

      Human sexuality is a political minefield and not easy to navigate unless you have specialist insight. The first Minister is trained as a lawyer, not a social scientist. She is also poorly advised by the likes of Stonewall UK.

    26. Macart says:

      Heh! Tying themselves in knots down in Westminster right enough.

      A new twist on an old trope right enough from the PM. ‘Back me AND I’ll leave’. 🙄

    27. Thepnr says:

      @K1 I don’t see Theresa may getting the numbers needed to see her deal over the line. You’r right that the Rees-Mogg faction and possibly Bojo the clown will now support her deal but there remains a hardcore of ERG members that will never support her deal.

      The DUP could go any way but there are also more than 2 dozen moderates in her party that hate her deal and want either the softest of Brexits or another vote on the referendum.

      I doubt that there will be sufficient labour numbers to overcome these obstacles in her own party especially as it’s now clear May is finished.

    28. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Macart @ 18:13,

      Is that the “essential change” which Bercow is seeking? =laugh=

    29. Old Pete says:

      May is finished, who will be next ?

    30. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dr Jim
      Yes, I watched the clip PC linked, and it was indeed homophobia and any abuse she condemened – same as the abuse she got / gets which of course Dugdale isn’t responsible for either. Maybe a slight dig at Rev, not for homophobia but, well, you know!

      @CBB “Off the cuff
      I’d say she had a good idea it was going to happen, she had apparently a list of the abusive tweets she got from both Labour and Tory. Might have been a few sheets blank paper all the same 🙂

    31. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, I think if May promises her resignation in September or whatever, she may get her deal through, as both ERG and Labour can kind of claim a victory – and ERG can welsh on the deal afterwards, apologies to Wales no connection. It depends on how these amendments go, but I’d say it’s likely most will fail, in which case it’s “deal or no deal”.

      And if May’s deal passes, whenever next week? It’s game on.

    32. Macart says:

      @RJS

      They’re wandering round the outer chambers and halls right now being intercepted by telly punditry. The amount of backstabbery on display is truly breathtaking. Each and every one of them dripping sincerity (Uh Huh!), purpose (probably confusion) and stoicism (or is it naked fear?).

      And I do mean dripping…. EEEWWWWWW).

      Not entirely convinced on PM May’s statement, but you never know (shrugs).

    33. Bob Mack says:

      Berrow stated today that he will not consider another vote on the basically same motion.

      I think the next thingthat has to happen is the Tories trying to displace John Bercow.

      Not sure if that is by simple majority.

    34. Arthur Thomson says:

      Corbyn’s only skill, developed over a lifetime, is self preservation. He is and has always been a fraud who never expected – ever – to be taken seriously and actually have to do something. Given the opportunity to do something he can’t help but manoeuvre himself into the role of spoiler. He and his motley crew are destined never to be in power – except maybe with the SNP to lead them if Brexit doesn’t happen. Hopefully Corbyn’s increasingly obvious deviousness will torpedo any influence he has in Scotland and contribute to the growth of support for Scottish independence.

    35. Liam says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      27 March, 2019 at 4:58 pm

      Liam
      Sorry, my mistake, I haven’t quite caught up.

      I agree with you completely re. sexuality.

      No worries! Now, as to the 2+2=5 thing…. It’s a long time since I read Nineteen Eighty-Four so I can’t remember whether it’s specified that 2+2 ALWAYS = 5 but 2+2 can easily be made to equal five with very little stretch of the imagination.

      https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-7f41728d81c1f0fe34afef75fd75fefe

    36. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, maybe actually starting, funny how some Wingers suggested this:

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17531648.brexit-scottish-parliament-votes-to-revoke-article-50/

      MSPs have backed a call to cancel Brexit in the event that another referendum cannot take place, in a largely symbolic vote.

      Mmm, “largely symbolic”. I – don’t – think – so.

    37. CameronB Brodie says:

      Some stuff on the interaction between moral taste, class and power.

      Marking the Moral Boundaries of Class
      http://www.socresonline.org.uk/11/1/kirk.html

      The Boundaries of the Moral (and Legal) Community
      chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1593&context=journal_articles

      Class, Moral Worth and Recognition
      https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0038038505058376

      The psychology of social class: How socioeconomic status impacts thought, feelings, and behaviour
      https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/bjso.12251

    38. yesindyref2 says:

      Anyway, passed by 89 to 28 for Harvie’s motion, with the Scottish Conservatives voting against. Labour and the LibDems remaining on board with the SNP and Greens against Brexit, which is not just commendable, but quite remarkable. They’re both showing some spirit, unlike the Tories who always were anti-Devolution, and still are.

    39. jomry says:

      Breeks 7.47

      The most disturbing aspect of your early morning post was your statement ..”I’m about done here anyway…” Your comments and contributions are always articulate, intellectually probing and cogently argued – and you show a level of restraint that is admirable given the Pavlovian reaction of some. I don’t always agree with your conclusions but I for one value your input and hope that your voice will not, like others, disappear from this forum.

      As a long term lurker of this site, I value it as a resource for information I would get nowhere else – especially through Nana’s links. I also value exposure to views and ideas provided by many of the contributors and appreciate the diversity of thought – and find attempts to constrain these extremely unhealthy.

      As some have pointed out, this is an open forum where general ideas and information relevant to the quest for an independent Scotland can be shared and discussed. There are people here with absolutely no affiliation to the SNP who contribute valuable information and ideas – including the owner of the site.

      Some contributors – including SNP members – suggest courses of action that challenge ( and implicitly criticise ) strategies currently or previously deployed by the SNP. Why do some people find this an issue ?

      The merits or demerits of such views can be debated in an open forum such as this. What else is an open forum for? Where ideas have little merit or support, they will disappear – as they should. But simple uncritical dismissal of them as “SNPBAAD” doctrines supporting unionist agendas is an intellectually vapid response – and unfortunately, the site “prefects” slip into this all too readily.

      It is argued by some that airing of such views (with their implicit or explicit criticism of the SNP) damage the cause for independence and support unionist agendas. We are patronisingly “advised” to channel concerns through branch meetings or write directly to our political representatives, but not, under any circumstance, voice any of these on an open forum since it will be counter-productive. To use an oft repeated phrase – pish. Claptrap.

      If an idea is aired, discussed and found to have some merit and support on this – the most prolific independence forum – then that certainly can influence policy formation. It cannot determine it since this operates through the internal democratic processes – but it can influence it. Its airing can influence SNP members at branch level to bring such matters up. It can make our political leaders aware of feelings running high in the wider yes movement, which may very well influence how they act on a day to day basis.

      Take the timing of indyref 2. There has been much public discussion of this on this site – with quite explicit criticism of SNP strategy and officials. Hardly surprising since there is a divergence of views on this between our elected SNP politicians. Has this led to MSM claims of civil wars within the SNP? Yes of course.

      But has this damaged the cause of independence in any way? Not at all – in fact quite the reverse, in my opinion. How many people have deserted the SNP because of this difference of opinion? Very few. On the other hand, many more have joined because of the more strident demands for action – not least on forums like this one. And there is little doubt that this wave of unrest has spooked the establishment.

      Take the previous “ civil war” in connection with the Alec Salmond case. Very heated debate and strong criticism of the SNP official line. Many people saying “Leave it to Nicola – she’ll sort it out..” Others, including myself, going our own way and crowdfunding Salmond’s defence – in direct opposition to the stance taken by Nicola Sturgeon. “Civil War!” cried the MSM. Where are the casualties? What of the increased strength and resilience of the SNP in the face of a very bitter dispute and still remaining unified because of the overarching belief that we in Scotland should be free to choose our own future?

      I realise that there are those who would rather the different views about how and when we move towards independence were kept internal to the SNP but these have a relevance beyond the SNP. This is not a SNP site.

      What is damaging is the attempt to close voices down, to establish an orthodoxy and to dismiss views that diverge from this as the work of enemies of independence. Much more damaging to the SNP – and the cause of independence – is the oft-repeated charge that the SNP is a cult, brooks no dissent and our political representatives are robots devoid of independent thought.

      My own view is that the only political entity that will bring us independence is the SNP. That does not put it, or its officials beyond criticism. And there are times when they need to know that many of their supporters are uneasy with the courses being steered.

    40. CameronB Brodie says:

      Liam
      You’ve got a point there and very well made. The embodied whole is greater than the sum of the parts. 😉

    41. Lenny Hartley says:

      Jomry, @ 1841 great post, can we have more?

    42. Tony Hay says:

      On first inspection the arithmetic still doesn’t look too promising for Mrs May’s WA passing in the HoC,however I feel its gonna be mighty close….in fact I think it passes and then we really are under starters orders.

    43. K1 says:

      I think when you’ve been commenting as far back as 2106 jomry, then you can’t describe yourself as a ‘long term lurker’ on the site anymore, you are in fact a long term poster, just saying 🙂

    44. K1 says:

      2016 obvs

    45. K1 says:

      The thing is about May’s latest jape, is that if she doesn’t believe her deal can get through ‘at all’ why would she say she will step down as a means of ‘ensuring’ it ‘could’ get through if indeed she agrees to quit before ‘her time’ so to speak?

    46. Capella says:

      @ K1 – thx for the info re deleted comment. I was thinking everyone was being ultra sensitive. If you go and watch a film, or the HoC debate or the Sheriff Court tweets or whatever then there’s another slew of comments to wade through!

      Waiting for the vote result but after that I’m off to watch the Miami Showband Massacre, to get me into the mood.

    47. Socrates MacSporran says:

      BBC Shortbread, 6.30pm news – and they are still pushing that lie about British Forces personnel in Scotland paying more in tax.

      Utterly shameless.

    48. K1 says:

      It’ll just make ye really angry and…oh wait…yes that ‘will’ get ye in the mood 😉

    49. jomry says:

      K1
      Busted! My time machine secret is now out there.

    50. Lenny Hartley says:

      Bob Mack ,there is a workaround, end the Parliamentary session, and start a new one, will take a week or so but as long as its done and dusted by April 12th no real issue for them, they will need to get Betty Battenburg to do a mornings work , that may be a big ask, and possibily when they reconvene Parliament they can select a new speaker, although it does not need a new speaker to get the third meaningful vote through, because it will be the first meaningful vote of the new Parliamentary session . Great what you can do when there is no written constitution! Bercow is on his last legs anyway, his Tory Colleagues have had it in for him for a while.

    51. call me dave says:

      MSPs vote to revoke A50 “largely symbolic”.

      Big Auntie and Auntie wie a kilt were the first to associate the
      “largely symbolic” tag with the Holyrood vote.

      Best not to frighten the horses… 🙂

      Another little thing in place!

    52. K1 says:

      Right the hoose is suspended and they are off tae vote on the options…back on ‘in a half an hour’….so 7.30pm…probably take a bit longer to announce ‘results’.

    53. yesindyref2 says:

      @Breeks
      I totally agree with jomry about your posts, and don’t think your voice isn’t heard in the right quarters. You are a vocal errr, voice, of a considerable number of Indy supporters – I see that elsewhere.

      Keep posting on Wings please!

    54. jfngw says:

      How crap must you be as PM that MP’s will accept a bad deal just to get rid of you. And how little integrity must you have to accept a bad deal in this scenario.

    55. Bob Mack says:

      @Lenny Hartley,

      I’m pretty sure the speaker comes under the fixed term Parliament Act. Trying to get rid of him just because of a break for session rather than election may not be legitimate.

    56. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      jfngw @ 19:07,

      Nicola has very recently commented that May’s “deal+quit” is worse than ever, since her successor is very likely to be a hardline Brexist.

      (Kudos though to NorthBritLab, who did actively support the Greens’ A50 motion in Holyrood. Credit where credit is due.)

    57. Bob Mack says:

      Just hearing The Herald are cutting all input from Arts and Culture feature writers.

      Near the end of the road?

    58. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Breeks
      You have a way with words that enriches this debate, please don’t stop posting.

      The Moral Limits of the Criminal Law Volume 3: Harm to Self
      Personal Sovereignty and Its Boundaries

      Using the concept of personal sovereignty sketched in previous chapters, in which an autonomous individual is viewed as analogous to an autonomous state, Feinberg claims that the self?regarding and other?regarding distinction can be used as a guide to map the boundaries of personal autonomy. He goes on to examine autonomy contrasted with liberty and de facto freedom, personal sovereignty compared with constitutional privacy, autonomous forfeitures of liberty, and deciding for one’s future self.

      Keywords: autonomy, liberty, sovereignty

      http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/0195059239.001.0001/acprof-9780195059236-chapter-3

      Moral Boundaries, Exclusion and Academic Evaluation
      http://www.erasmusprijs.org/library/publicaties/Erasmus_Essay_2017_binnenwerk_DEF.pdf

      THE ENDURING SIGNIFICANCE OF STATE SOVEREIGNTY
      https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/files/1644-roth-brad-the-enduring-significance-of-state

      National Sovereignty and the Challenge of Immigration
      https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/files/1644-roth-brad-the-enduring-significance-of-state

    59. Thepnr says:

      May’s deal is as dead as the dodo.

      “So @SteveBakerHW just gave speech to Tory ERG Brexiters saying he could never back PM’s Brexit deal and he received standing ovation.”

      https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1110983170797813761

    60. CameronB Brodie says:

      Oops, the correct link for the bottom article.
      https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2017/08/19911/

    61. cassandra says:

      @jomry 6.41 pm

      Thank you for that.

      I don’t post very often but the vitriol and derision handed out to anyone who posts even a query about the constitution that doesn’t fit in with the dominant thinking of a certain group of individuals or asks a question that has been asked before is off putting.

      If you can imagine the same tactics being employed while manning a stall or out canvassing it puts things into perspective. Shouting at people that they are ignorant of things you have said (when they don’t know you from Adam) or accusing you of being brainwashed if you use a term they find objectionable.

      There is precious little freedom to even post any doubt about the strategies of the SNP or the simplistic ideas put forward about dissolving the union. I don’t know if we have any constitutional lawyers who post but I have colleagues who basically just sigh in frustration at some of the stuff that is written as fact here BTL.

      Anyone can read a history book and form their own interpretation but to claim you have constitutional law on your side you really have to know current law and practice it. If it really was that easy, well we would have done it by now.

      The equivalent would be someone reading medical textbooks without a medical background and then putting forward their ideas about disease by saying ‘nothing is actually stopping them just cutting the bad bit out’, not knowing how it is interwoven with other structures, the possible unintended consequences and what is the best medical thinking at this time.

      I find the idea that the SNP leadership is willing to engage with anyone strange as well as that is not my experience. As someone posted on Twitter if you ask Nicola Sturgeon her favourite book you are more likely to get an answer than if you ask about her views on Gender Identity or her current Independence strategy.

      The SNP are our only option as far as Independence goes for now but if their most vocal advocates here are indicative of the wider membership then they are in trouble.

    62. Thepnr says:

      A wee follow up.

      “DUP source tells @markdevenport party hasn’t yet dropped its opposition to PM’s deal”

      https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1110987237792145416

    63. Gary says:

      Dugdale is making much of how she has called the ‘remark’ homophobic and not it’s author, this seems to be her defence. It’s thin but as Stu must prove his case it COULD be enough. Of course, conversely, it is a balance 0f probability so that could be enough but of course, who makes the decision on whether this meets the criteria is probably MORE important that the law itself.

      She has also tried to put across that she has had no other opportunity to remedy this and that she was not asked to apologise, just “asked for money”

      Being right, morally, and in law, often isn’t enough. Having the support of the establishment is everything and currently, she has that…

    64. stuart mctavish says:

      @ Lenny Hartley
      Might be an idea to triple the royal guard if such sleight of hand is being contemplated

    65. Breastplate says:

      Breeks, please don’t think you are alone in your thinking, you most definitely are not.

    66. Urban Dictionary defines a concern troll as “someone who is on one side of the discussion, but pretends to be a supporter of the other side with ‘concerns.'”

      In other words, it’s someone who pretends to support you but couches their disagreements in the form of “concerns,” which allows them to justify criticism as the result of worrying about you. “I’m on your side,” they say, “but you shouldn’t do X, Y, and Z. It looks bad to some people — not that I agree, but I thought you should know.”.

      we see you.

    67. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      jomry @ 18.41,
      cassandra @ 19:33,

      Bless.

      All debate is welcome, we can only wish it be constructive.

    68. Essexexile says:

      Breeks @7.47
      Quite probably your finest moment on Wings.
      I’ll be honest, I’ve pretty much lost interest in the site myself for similar reasons to you. It seems to be dominated by a clique of low brow, narrow minded individuals who can’t get passed the idea of nationalism as an unwelcoming, paranoid movement.
      Like you I’ve suggested that how Scotland sees itself is ultimately less important than how it is seen internationally. Bleeding obvious I would have thought but apparently the idea doesn’t fit the hardcore nationalist mantra so I just got called daft names and was told I was the enemy.
      I’m also with you in believing that we may have already missed our golden chance while waiting for the absolutely perfect moment. Only time will tell on that. I still think waiting is for the best, but tbh, I’m less sure about that every day. I’ve got a horrible feeling Brexit events are going to grind on without any clear outcomes for years. Where does that leave indy?
      As you say, our Sovereignty is as much about believing in ourselves as anything. Do we have the minerals or are we pushing for a democratic mandate that we already have and don’t need anyway?
      Anyway, I assume the usual suspects will be along to tell me I must be a raging Yoon because I’m not 100% on message and having understandable doubts about where we’re going….

    69. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      This extra long 3-pager is bringing in some welcome rare posters out of the woodwork.

      Lang may yir lum reek!

      Yilliv hud yir tea?

    70. Thepnr says:

      There is a clear path to Independence and it’s the one that the SNP are following. Their wish is that the sovereign people of Scotland make their sovereign desire to be Independent known to the world in a constitutional referendum.

      Just thought I’d throw a couple of “sovereigns” and a “constitution” in there hoping it might get attention LOL.

      There are no shortcuts and to attempt one would likely bring misery. The people are either for you or against you. We are very close to having a majority for Independence lets work that wee bit harder then we will get over the line.

      It really is that simple, we need the people to put an X in a box.

    71. Macart says:

      Oh Jeez! (Barney Bear face slap)

      Rumours that Bojo and IDS may back ‘the plan’ they’ve both rubbished.

    72. Thepnr says:

      May’s time as PM is over, her deal is she ever attempts to bring it for a third vote will be soundly defeated. She should go now but I know she won’t, she will need to be pushed and pushed hard.

      https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1110991096354615296

    73. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Macart @ 20:02,

      Oh, it’s a full performance under the high top this evening.

      Clowns, high-wire act, tumblers, knife-throwers, the lot.

      (Not to forget our elephant.)

    74. Gfaetheblock says:

      Robert peffers

      Fish is about 5% of Spanish Agri exports, less than olive oil, meat, wine.

      The whole agri sector is small than the automotive sector, Europe’s second biggest after Germany.

      Obviously, services is the largest part of Spanish GDP, as it is a developed country. It is also the worlds biggest tourist economy, so that doninates the GDP.

      This info is all readily available online, so rather than make stuff up, just check. Link below for you to play with.

      Rensoanish motivation, keeping EU happy and the tourist trade flowing would probably be a lot more important than fishing.

      http://atlas.cid.harvard.edu/explore/?country=71&partner=undefined&product=undefined&productClass=HS&startYear=undefined&target=Product&year=2014

    75. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Thepnr at 7:56 pm.

      You typed,

      “There are no shortcuts and to attempt one would likely bring misery. The people are either for you or against you. We are very close to having a majority for Independence lets work that wee bit harder then we will get over the line.

      It really is that simple, we need the people to put an X in a box.”

      There is one shortcut available. If, for reasons unfathomable, Westminster decides that a General Election is the way forward, then all the SNP has to do is go into that election with a manifesto commitment that if there are a majority of independence supporting MPs elected to the UK parliament, ie 30 out of 59, then that will be taken as a mandate to negotiate withdrawal from the UK and the Treaty of Union.
      |(The way things are looking, there could be 46+ SNP MPs.)

      After all, it was Maggie who declared it!

      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9xDVS7XcAAox00.jpg

    76. ronnie anderson says:

      Dr Jim Dugdales QC tried again today to tell the court that the FM agreed with her that Stu was a homophobe the judge didn’t wear it , as for the tweets (singular ) Stu’s QC pointed that out several times yesterday & again today & the 120 tweets supporting Gay/LG groups which Dugdale never saw as she had blocked herself from the Rev’s twitter feed .

      Dugdales QC picking at straws mentioning English defamation cases the judge commented that he wont be referring to those Judgements

    77. mr thms says:

      The news that the Withdrawal Agreement might have enough votes to pass is amazing!

      I have always thought the Scottish and EU referendums were linked.

      Article 50 has five parts and it would facilitate the internal enlargement ofcthe EU.

      By requesting an extension to Article 50 the PM was giving the EU notice to prepare for its implementation.

      For an independent Scotland to rejoin the EU as one of the two successor states it would need a ‘transitional arrangement’. Remember the PM’s WithdrawalAgreement has a ‘transitional arrangement’.

      Next years celebrations for the 700th anniversary of the Declaration of Arbroath will include a ‘world class’ event.

      My goosebumps are now getting goosebumps!

    78. CameronB Brodie says:

      Gfaetheblock
      I take it you support rational self-determination and individual liberty? So are you still sure you’re supporting the right team?

    79. dakk says:

      Brian Doonthetoon says:
      27 March, 2019 at 7:53 pm
      This extra long 3-pager is bringing in some welcome rare posters out of the woodwork.

      I think you may have fallen foul of the auto correct there Brian.

      Take it as read you typed roasters not posters.

    80. Thepnr says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon

      There is no need to fear having to overcome the requirement of convincing 50% + 1 of the Scottish electorate to support Independence. It is achievable and we may even already be there.

      We take the country with us, in fact it is the people of Scotland that will tell the world that they are in support of Independence. A majority in support of Independence.

      I don’t care how it may be dressed up but there is no way around the requirement for 50% support and Yes an election is an acceptable means of showing that.

      Fifty percent of the people though and not 50% of elected MP’s. At least that’s my view and it won’t be changing anytime soon. I happen to like my neighbours, friends and family even if they voted No. I would never try and force anything on them against their will. If we tried it would backfire and the dream of Independence really would die along with any idea of democracy in Scotland.

      Doesn’t seem to me like a good way to launch a newly Independent country. Others may think differently and I’m aware that they do.

    81. CameronB Brodie says:

      Stick in a manifesto and laugh at Thatcher’s ghost when Scotland votes for self-determination.

      Big Thinkers: Roberto Mangabeira Unger on Empowered Democracy in the UK
      https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/events/big-thinkers-roberto-mangabeira-unger-empowered-democracy-uk

      Rethinking Human Rights, Democracy, and Sovereignty in the Age of Globalization
      https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0090591708317901

      Rethinking sovereignty – A quick look at the Catalan case
      http://iratzar.eus/eu/2-albisteak/173-rethinking-sovereignty-a-quick-look-at-the-catalan-case

      International Human Rights and Democratic Sovereignty: The Contemporary Debates
      https://www.bc.edu/content/dam/files/centers/humanrights/pdf/CHRIJ_Newsletter_summer11.pdf

    82. Lenny Hartley says:

      Bob Mack re Bercow, probably however if its a new session he cant stop it.

    83. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Thepnr @ 20:23,

      These things can come about in stages, not all at once. (Ireland happened like that electorally, IIRC.) A majority of MPs elected with a distinct mandate creates a legitimate claim, no doubt one that would be contested, but in the right circumstances that can ignite a chain reaction of support.

      People need a (virtual) flag and fixed point around which to rally, and that has to be established somehow. The chicken-and-egg dilemma. It is that current perceived lack of something concrete to hang onto that is making many of us antsy at the moment.

      Indy may have to be a bootstrap operation.

    84. schrodingers cat says:

      I understand that the very pro eu people are upset that the snp hasnt pulled the trigger before we leave.

      unfortunately, independence isnt the settled will, or the democratic will, or soveriegn wish of the people of scotland.

      not by much, but the majority still want to be part of the UK. I had hoped the polls would start to swing in our favour before now, but they havent

      there is much discussion about how we move forward on wos but regardless of your preference the one thing that is absolutely necessary is that the majority of the people if scotland supports independence.

      a minority cant end the union

    85. Giving Goose says:

      When a poppy embracing, WW2 channeling, wee krankie posting, Daily Mail referencing, uber unionist at Indy Ref 1, shows compassion for New Zealand victims & publicly supports “Yes” on social media (and I mever thought I would see the day & had given this person up as a lost cause) – you know we’re on the way to Independence! Just saying….

    86. Macart says:

      Oh wait…

      Looks like the DUP won’t be supporting the deal. 🙄

      Now is a good time for a snack break.

    87. Gfaetheblock says:

      CameronB

      I support individual liberties (within the rule of law and acceptable behaviour) and defo a supporter of self determination, again within the rule of law.

      My point was though I am massive fan of informed debate, I love hearing other people’s view, but it is so disappointing when people just make shit up to suit an arguement or make a point.

    88. manandboy says:

      Theresa May on yet another round of bribes to achieve her Brexit Withdrawal Agreement vote in Parliament.

      Sounds similar to the kind of stuff that went on in the actual EU Referendum.

      Westminster – where ‘democracy’ not only includes bribery, lies, deception and breaking the law, but depends on it.

    89. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      DUP Regrets it is unable to support TMays Withdrawal Deal

      aka

      “No Surrender to the EU”.

    90. schrodingers cat says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:
      People need a (virtual) flag and fixed point around which to rally

      ———————-

      true, but the people are, for the moment, completely mesmerised by the goat rodeo in westminster that is brexit

      until brexit is over, any flags run up a pole will be ignored.

      but once brexit is finalised, whatever it eventually is, the independence flag will become the sole focus for the dissolutioned remainers.

    91. george wood says:

      @Gfaetheblock 8.08pm

      Spain is in the top 5 countries in the world for consuming fish. It’s almost on par with Japan.

      It eats the fish it catches rather than exporting them.

      They will definately be interested in what happens to the North Sea fishing grounds.

    92. yesindyref2 says:

      House of Commons by the way can hold a vote of no confidence in the Speaker, it’s been tried at least 3 times, one led to a resignation on the threat of it over expenses, the other two didn’t get enough signatures on the motion. I think It was Bercow faced two threats already. If it succeeded they’d have to nominate vote and elect another one, maybe other stuff like Queen.

      Similar for Holyrood.

    93. Thepnr says:

      @Macart

      I’m sick of so much popcorn so have started on Cheesy Wotsits 🙂

    94. yesindyref2 says:

      @cat “I understand that the very pro eu people are upset that the snp hasnt pulled the trigger before we leave.

      We haven’t left yet cat, that’s not until 12th April with no deal, May something with a deal plus a transition. Pleny time yet.

    95. Macart says:

      @Thepnr

      Oh hell! I’ve broken out the choccy raisins at this point. 😎

      Speaker is back.

    96. schrodingers cat says:

      will the dup now support a vonc?

    97. CameronB Brodie says:

      Gfaetheblock
      I was perhaps a bit clumsy there but it’s good to see we are both on the side of decision making through reasoned argument grounded in fact, rather than accepted wisdom and personal opinion.

      So how close would you say you are to joining the indy team, if that isn’t a personal question?

    98. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat @ 20:55,

      I think that actually, ordinary people are completely turned off by this goat rodeo. Wishing it would all just go away. Hence the polls, which don’t tell the whole story. But soon enough, one way or another they will be required to make a choice.

      I don’t basically disagree with you on that, nor on your earlier point about settled will, although after all the reputational damage that the “almighty” BritNat state has accrued of late, that body of opinion is uniquely available for conversion now. But as you say, timing is all.

    99. mr thms says:

      Jockanese Wind Talker @ 8:54 pm

      “DUP Regrets it is unable to support TMays Withdrawal Deal”

      I’m sure the government will find more money by the time the MPs have to vote.

    100. Robert Peffers says:

      @jomry says: 27 March, 2019 at 6:41 pm:

      Dear! Oh! Dear! jomry. Why so reticent? Why not say what you mean?

      For someone advocating the right to say whatever one likes that harms the party you are rather reluctant to point your finger at any particular commenter.

      Mind you, you might have spared your keyboard a bit of a bashing by not beating about the bush and named the person you were aiming at in the first line.

      Anyway, it is quite simple. Wings is a mainly independence supporting blog that sometimes strays into some other facets of Scottish culture and even sports.

      There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the outright statements that the First Minister has more interest in staying on the gravy train than gaining independence for Scotland is out and out attack upon not only the First Minister herself but the party she leads and everyone in it. They, after all elected her.

      Nicola Sturgeon is not only The First Minister of the Scottish parliament she is leader of the Scottish National Party and such attacks, and they are direct attacks, are not only at the FM but at the party and the members of that party.

      These are not, by the main, just simple criticisms. They strike at the FM, The SG, The SNP and every member of the party that elected Nicola Sturgeon as their leader.

      In many cases the detractor is not just saying they, “think”, she may be making a mistake but are setting themselves up as better judges of the situation that the FM is but without the benefit of the many Civil Servants employed by the Scottish Government, Scottish Law Lords, the legal advisors of both the Scottish Government and the SNP as a party.

      But most of all their input on this blog that is quite obviously read by many unionists only serves to feed the unionist information that they will undoubtedly use against the independence movement – and we have good evidence that this is so.

      Yet you seem to think it a fault to advise commenters to take their worries and doubts, if that is indeed what they are, directly to the FM, SG and SNP directly.

      The obvious thing is that, if indeed the accused were guilty of what these openly hostile accusations here on Wings accuse them of, then doing so directly to the FM, SG and SNP would stand a greater chance of having effect upon what these people claim to be their object.

      Posting their derogatory claims here on Wings will affect the commenters on Wings but do nothing to change what these people claim they want the FM, SG and SNP to change.

      Make no mistake I’m not the kind to blindly follow the leader and if I don’t think them right I will tell then so, to their face, by phone, mail, email or on the party website. I’ll tell you something else – not once have I failed to at least be listened to and never failed to get a reply.

      Oh! And BTW, I never needed to write a long screed without naming the person I was aiming at, but then I’m not a coward either.

    101. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Thepnr @ 20:57,

      Oh dear, on the road to gustatory hell now. You’ll never get rid of the taste after an evening munching on those. =laugh= Yet another piece of Brexit collateral damage. =snort=

    102. CameronB Brodie says:

      Robert Peffers
      OK, I’ll not beat about the bush. I think you need to ease off a bit a your becoming a tad overbearing, IMHO, and a little too quick to identify attackers that are not there. You are not alone in this.

    103. Meg merrilees says:

      Phew! At least we know we are definitely NOT Leaving at 11pm on Friday.

      Motion to change the date and time to April 12th/May 22nd has passed by 441 to 105 votes.

      I know it was a technicality because the EU decide the leaving date but at least we know that the Tories are not going to try and twist things at the last minute ( we hope).
      I was slightly worried that T May might try to get her deal through tomorrow and if she succeeded would have declared that we were leaving at 11pm on the 29th as originally planned as I think that was a major target for her that she was still tying to achieve.

      And relax!

    104. Macart says:

      441 – 105 in favour of Brexit delay. Indicative vote results to come.

      Y’know, just when you think that howf couldn’t get more confusing or farcical? Something always pops up with a ‘hold my pint’ moment.

    105. Thepnr says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland

      It’s the Aldi ones as well Cheese Puffs they’re called, though I’m assured they are the same as the genuine article. Same product in a different wrapper, a bit like the Labour party LOL.

    106. Meg merrilees says:

      George wood @ 8.55

      Heard an interview about 6 weeks ago with a west coast of scotland seafood fisherman. He exports all his catch to Spain preferably and he said that a decent sized langoustine in Barcelona would sell for £60.00 whereas in London he would get £12.00 for the same catch.

      Any Brexit would destroy their industry – his exact words were – ’cause it to meltdown’ and he couldn’t understand the attitude of the east coast fishermen as he believed that there are many people operating boats ( in Europe) to make a living, feed their families and their communities and we have to take a sharing position. It was a refreshing interview.

    107. Gfaetheblock says:

      CameronB,

      It’s a personal question, but happy to answer. On the fence, as the uk is a shit show currently, but if brexit happens, I am struggling to see how the economic case for Indy stacks up in the short term.

      Brexit makes the emotional case for Indy stronger but the economic case weaker for me currently.

    108. manandboy says:

      Repeatedly, Theresa May states that in Indy2014 Scotland voted to remain in the United Kingdom. Each time she says that she is almost certainly lying, for the simple reason that she knows how the No vote was achieved.

    109. Craig Murray says:

      I sat through the morning session in the court and in the closing statement the defence counsel at least three times repeated that the First Minister had condemned Stu’s tweet as homophobic. This was straight out wrong as a matter of fact, but it appears as it was his closing statement nobody could contradict him.

      But one thing was quite clear. The defence had shifted the entire emphasis of their argument and placed very little weight on the argument that Stu is a homophobe. Rather they were stressing that it was only Kezia Dugdale’s honest opinion that he was, and that this was an expression just of opinion and not fact.

      Seemed piss weak to me, but if the defence does prevail on those grounds, it is a vindication of Stu BUT would give the media a field day in misrepresenting it.

    110. Robert Peffers says:

      @Lenny Hartley says: 27 March, 2019 at 6:51 pm:

      ” … Jomry, @ 1841 great post, can we have more?”

      Of course you can, Lenny, you FM/SNP detractors have to stick together. Strange that none of you have the courage of your convictions and take your criticisms directly to those you criticise.

      You could start here:-

      https://www.snp.org/

      You might have a chance of changing something there. You won’t have a chance of doing so on Wings.

      Mind you, though, neither will it give encouragement to the Unionist cause so I don’t expect you really want to communicate with the party but to aid the other side or the loony left in Scotland.

    111. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Robert Peffers.

      AS much as i appreciate what I have learned from your input here over the past 4 years or so, it does yourself a disservice to attack occasional posters, who may not be acquainted with all the nuances, with which you disagree.

      Debate is fine but your attack on jomry was way over the top.

    112. Thepnr says:

      Those that say they want to remain in the EU have lost every single vote that might keep us in. Labour need to get the finger out, fucking halfwits.

      General election or revocation? I don’t have a clue now.

    113. Dr Jim says:

      @Robert Peffers

      They’re turning up from all over now with *the SNP is rubbish but they’ll do till us smarter people take over* garbage
      If they were so smart why haven’t those very same smart genius’s done anything but bump their gums about how smart they are, full of answers to questions that nobody asks bar them from positions in the backs of pubs knitting old far left Labour rhetoric into the same rhetoric that comes out of Corbyns mouth, which amounts to nothing

      While the SNP work to build something these people conive to break it and refashion it into the same Labour nonsense that ruined Scotland for my 70 years on earth and more in your case, sure they want Independence they just don’t want to put the work in to get it, they’d rather wait and see if they can find a way to usurp it, it makes you wonder if they even deserve it

    114. Thepnr says:

      Jeremy Corbyn is a wankhole!

    115. Macart says:

      Stalemate in the howf.

      Who knew?

    116. Ahundredthidiot says:

      time to trade our 35 seats to support Mays WA for a second indyref?

      haha…..

    117. jockmcx says:

      Tories not happy!
      I am!

    118. Dr Jim says:

      Whatever comes out of Stu’s court case the one thing I’ll treasure is the Judge declaring Willie Rennie Inconsequential

    119. CameronB Brodie says:

      Gfaetheblock
      That was a wee nod to Monty Python and the Life of Brian, re. a question being directed towards Brian’s mother. 🙂

      Thanks for your openness. So it’s short-term economic concerns that are your main worry. OK, that’s legitimate and suggests you don’t doubt the economic viability of an indy Scotland, it’s the Brexit chaos that is source of your worries. Can you be a bit more specific please, I might be able to shed a bit of light?

    120. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Not so sure the cash will do the job this time @mr thms says at 9:16 pm

      “I’m sure the government will find more money by the time the MPs have to vote.”

      The Fundamentalist British Nationalist Extremists of the DUP appear to be putting their foot down regarding “No differential settlement for NI”.

      These fuckers would live in shit and scrape about for scraps to eat as long as they can wrap themselves in the Union Fleg, March on the 12th of July and call themselves “Brits”.

    121. Phil says:

      A few days ago there was a report from the Irish Times showing how referendums over there are normally thrashed out revealing nitty gritty results prior to the actual yes/no vote, thereby saving 1000 days of acrimonious wasted debate.

      My guess is that this would not work with our Brexit referendum . So, to generalise a rule and try to avoid obfuscation all referendums should be labelled and branded as ADVISORY and “To Be Submitted To Parliament”. Thus avoiding all weeping and wailing and outright lying about “The Will Of The People”.

      Parliament could decide if circumstances required confirmation by people’s vote.

    122. Ron Maclean says:

      Does attempting to stop criticism of the leader respect the Declaration of Arbroath?

    123. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      @ Craig: “Seemed piss weak to me…”

      That’s an insult to piss.

    124. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      MPs have given no majority to any of the eight Brexit alternatives considered on day one of the indicative vote process.

      Speaker John Bercow announced the results as follows:

      Motion B) No deal – defeated by 400 votes to 160, majority 240.

      Motion D) Common market 2.0 – defeated by 283 votes to 188, majority 95.

      Motion H) Efta and EEA – defeated by 377 votes to 65, majority 312.

      Motion J) Customs union – defeated by 272 votes to 264, majority eight.

      Motion K) Labour’s alternative plan – defeated by 307 votes to 237, majority 70.

      Motion L) Revocation to avoid no-deal – defeated by 293 votes to 184, majority 109.

      Motion M) Confirmatory public vote – defeated by 295 voted to 268, majority 27.

      Motion O) Contingent preferential arrangements – defeated by 422 votes to 139, majority 283.

      Green Party leader Caroline Lucas pointed out that despite not obtaining a majority, the plan for a confirmatory public vote received more votes than the Prime Minister’s Brexit plan.

      “Public vote gets biggest vote – 268 in favour – and crucially gets more support than PM’s Deal last time (242).

      “Now Monday becomes key moment to attach #peoplesvote to any deal that gets more support.” she says.

    125. cynicalHighlander says:

      Gfaetheblock says:
      27 March, 2019 at 9:32 pm

      What are you smoking?

      Scotland subsidises the the rest of Westminter by 274 billion £s every year from its energy sector with renewables, oil and gas plus water every year according to the ons.

    126. galamcennalath says:

      SNP voting, as far as I can work out

      FOR
      Margaret Beckett’s motion M (Confirmatory public vote)
      Joanna Cherry’s motion L (Revocation to avoid no deal)

      ABSTAINED
      Jeremy Corbyn’s motion K (Labour’s alternative plan)
      Mr Clarke’s motion J (Customs union)
      Nick Boles’s motion D (Common market 2.0)

      AGAINST
      Mr Fysh’s motion O (Contingent preferential arrangements)
      George Eustice’s motion H (EFTA and EEA)
      Mr Baron’s motion B (No deal)

    127. Gfaetheblock says:

      CameronB,

      Thanks for the offer, but off to bed soon, so let’s not go deep into it tonight. The main themes are out of the growth commission, and focus on currency/fiscal policy, friction to trade with rUK and rEU and transitional effort.

      Scotland can be a successful independent country in the long term, and brexit can be a success in the long term, but both carry significant risk and would need to be well managed.

    128. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Dr Jim @ 21:44,

      This is exactly this kind of hasty over-reaction that proves the posters’ very point. Lighten up, please.

      There is a clear difference between deliberate anti-SNP attacks on the one hand and constructive discussion on the other. Most people (lurkers and posters) on here are grown-up and astute enough to comprehend the difference, and don’t need to be “protected” by aggressive self-appoined political commissars who attempt to shut down anything at all they don’t like. Which has been happening increasingly of late, and is being noticed more and more.

      You normally write very pithy comments on the current situation and that convinces people far more than anyone’s intemperate attempts at enforcing some perceived rigid party orthodoxy that doesn’t actually exist.

    129. ronnie anderson says:

      Dr Jim Wullie Rennie is so inconsequential thats why I never mentioned him lol

    130. Craig Murray says:

      Keeping Ronnie awake was my biggest difficulty in the courtroom.

    131. Craig Murray says:

      That’s a joke, incidentally. It was me that nodded off.

    132. Gfaetheblock says:

      Cynicalhighlander

      Water exports are worth how much?

      Sure your numbers are right there, got a link?

    133. CameronB Brodie says:

      Gfaetheblock
      OK, let’s leave it there for tonight. I haven’t got all the answers but we can maybe develop this over the next couple of days. Just watch out for more Pythonesque lines of questioning though. 😉

    134. galamcennalath says:

      The SNP have a primary position of Remain (possibly through an EURef2), and a fall back position of staying the single market.

      The more favoured options clearly lie towards middling to hard Brexit.

      We may see clear blue water between Scotland and England’s preferred routes re Brexit very soon. That should open the door to IndyRef2.

    135. yesindyref2 says:

      The SNP really are stirrers

      Ian Blackford calls for General Election after MPs reject all Brexit motions

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17531909.ian-blackford-calls-for-general-election-after-mps-reject-all-brexit-motions/

      You can’t make porridge without stirring it, and taking it with a pinch of salt.

    136. geeo says:

      Gfaetheblock@9.32pm

      Comedy gold from one of the resident, rabidly anti indy nutters.

      What part of a debt free, resource rich Indy Scotland do you not understand ?

    137. Bob Mack says:

      You may have to appreciate that if you want indy then the SNP are really the only game in town. I don’t think the Greens would gather such supportfor many reasons.

      Like or loathe that is just the way it is.

    138. cynicalHighlander says:

      Gfaetheblock says:
      27 March, 2019 at 10:21 pm

      Cynicalhighlander

      Try google

      https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/uksectoraccounts/bulletins/scottishnaturalcapital/ecosystemserviceaccounts2019

    139. Heart of Galloway says:

      All progressive indicative votes fail, CU very narrowly by 8, EU Ref2 by 27, by strange quirk of fate the same number of EU members watching this circus through cracks in their fingers.

      Ian Blackford said ‘we have failed’ and demanded a General Election.

      The DUP said no surrender and nailed May to the wall over the backstop.

      Back in the land of the sane the Scottish Parliament voted 89-28 to cancel Brexit, a fact surprisingly reported by the BBC’s Sarah Smith just now. Expect to hear more about Scotland’s voice being ignored’ she says as calls for independence grow louder.

      The FM condemns the ‘chaos’ and suggests it’s time for Scotland to go her own way.

      There is a tangible fin de siecle mood in the air – Scot Gov and SNP MPs have done all they can, probably more than they should.

      But now hand on heart Nicola Sturgeon can say to the people of Scotland: you have the power to decide your own future – and that is independence and EU membership.

    140. Lenny Hartley says:

      Thenpr you forget the default is no deal! Nothings changed its only been extended to April 12th.
      I still think that May’s ismost probable, in the last week twice Labour has said it might support it if A) thery get a peoples vote or B ) they get Norway plus. The significant thing is that they are suceptable to back it. As far as I can make out , the Labour preference is a Customs Union, Mays deal is a defacto Customs Union albeit with no EU legal juristiction.

    141. K1 says:

      It’s a 2 step process, these are the first indicative votes, and as was pointed out in the commons after, most of them defeated May’s MV votes, some by considerable margins as HoG notes above. So this continues on Monday, if May doesn’t get any further forward with attempting to get MV3 through on Friday.

      It’s a ‘whittling down’ process and it isn’t finished yet. Bercow was very clear about that as the Tories started gloating immediately after the results were read out.

      But yes it is getting closer…but we’re not there just yet.

    142. Lenny Hartley says:

      Robert Peffers m just about had enough of you and your arrogant overbearing attitude,
      I heard a new word this week “Wankhole” sounds as if it describes es you perfectly.

    143. HYUFD says:

      galamcennalath The most favoured option in the Commons was Deal plus permanent CU, the second most favoured was EUref2, neither are hard Brexit on any definition and if passed neither would therefore enable indyref2

    144. HYUFD says:

      Indeed the SNP has been calling for the UK to stay in a permanent Customs Union ever since the referendum and for a second referendum on Brexit too, so Westminster could logically easily refuse indyref2 on that basis and they of course would do so

    145. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      galamcennalath @ 22:13,

      Fascinating, thanks for that (both summary and link).

      I see that 27 Labour MPs voted against their fellow MP Margaret Beckett’s “pro-PV” motion, and a whole 111 of them managed to bestir themselves to vote for Joanna Cherry’s “last-minute revocation” one, with 22 dividing the other way. So the Bain Principle is not quite alive, not quite dead, it seems.

      Rather like May’s “deal”, really.

    146. Gfaetheblock says:

      Cynicalhighlander

      That is asset value, not annual income.

      CameronB, good chat

    147. K1 says:

      Strong sense that ‘if’ May’s deal was tied to confirmatory vote it may squeak past. Her deal isn’t going to get through without some further caveats, that’s for sure.

      CU and re run/confirmatory are the indicative votes with the biggest chance of being tried for again with cross party support. GE becomes ‘possible’ if the impasse deepens to such a point that they just can’t get anything through on a majority at all, but that would require further extension from EU, which not guaranteed…at all.

      That ‘big vote’ earlier as about: ‘MPs have backed the statutory instrument changing Brexit date in the EU Withdrawal Act by 441 votes to 105 – a majority of 336.’ Nothing else, as it would have potentially been problematic if it wasn’t on the statute books and there was this 2 week gap between 29th March and 12th April where the UK was in a kinda a in-between EU and Out of EU state, that’s why it was such a big majority. Even then 105 of the nutters voted against it.

    148. Gary says:

      Robert peffers. …. for the record ,you started the insults , and No you haven’t proved me wrong .. you have simply shown your ignorance!! Your holier than thow attitude gives you a feeble sense of comfort behind your keyboard, a skill no doubt gained at your type writer maintenence classes at the happy club! A step up from your basket weaving skills. Still it must be difficult for you trying to communicate when your tongue is consistently stuck in your lower lip! ! Away and take a fucking holiday man.

    149. K1 says:

      Yawn…aff tae kip.

    150. K1 says:

      Not sure of the veracity of this tweet, but Rev retweeted on his twitter:

      ‘Prominent Brexiter talking to journalist off the record,

      “We never expected to win, we didn’t want to win. What we wanted was to frighten Brussels into giving us a better deal. Now we’re all screwed and there’s no way out”

    151. K1 says:

      Think that’s possible the most ‘honest’ admission we’ve heard in 2 and half years, if verified, about the whole fucking mess.

    152. Bob Mack says:

      I vote for no deal and independence. I could very well get both if the impasse continues.

      Interestingly David Gauke talked about his worries for the integrity of the UK if no deal prevails. Private polling in Scotland?

    153. Gary says:

      Robert peffers….. I’m actually beginning to come to the conclusion that you Are a closet unionist after all. Your stupidity gives it away

    154. CameronB Brodie says:

      “so Westminster could logically easily refuse indyref2 on that basis and they of course would do so”

      Proof positive HYUFD doesn’t respect the principles of either the Treaty of Union nor universal human rights. There’s you go, that’s English Tory exceptionalism. There is a reason Hitler found inspiration in reading Thomas Carlyle. He misunderstood where Carlyle was coming from ethically and aesthetically, just like most contemporary Tories.

      Liberal morality versus conservative morality: Understanding the difference can help you avoid arguments
      https://www.mentalhelp.net/blogs/liberal-morality-versus-conservative-morality-understanding-the-difference-can-help-you-avoid-arguments/

      DIT2: Devising and Testing a Revised Instrument of Moral Judgment
      https://www3.nd.edu/~dnarvaez/documents/DIT2pub.pdf

      Measuring moral thinking from a neo-Kohlbergian perspective
      https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1477878514545208

      The ethics, aesthetics and politics of Thomas Carlyle’s ‘French Revolution’
      http://theses.gla.ac.uk/8182/

    155. galamcennalath says:

      Amazing how things drift to normalising hard right ideas to the extent that Customs Union is actually considered ‘soft’ in some quarters. Turkey is in CU. It’s a long way from a soft Single Market membership outcome.

      Brexit with CU would be totally unacceptable to Scotland.

    156. K1 says:

      *It’s not in WM gift to ‘refuse’ a referendum in Scotland.

      *Fao anyone who hasn’t noticed that not one single gov member has ‘ever’ outrightly refused one…ever. Cause they can’t ergo ‘now is not the time’ from May…even a PM can’t say those words: No referendum. And still some don’t understand the ‘meaning’ behind why they can’t. Ho hum.

    157. manandboy says:

      https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.newsnow.co.uk/h/Hot%2BTopics/Donald%2BTusk&ved=2ahUKEwjR0MT8uaPhAhWGURUIHU82DCEQFjAGegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw0vmdk60Aw1co0HiNk-mKaA

      With his speech today, Donald Tusk inaugurates the status of being ‘European’ for people in the UK who want to stay in the EU. Until today, political discourse in the UK has never acknowledged or accepted this status.

      We’re British has always prevailed – until now.

    158. HYUFD says:

      galamcennalath Incorrect, Brexit with CU prevents us doing our own trade deals, including with the USA, it might help manufacturing exporting to the EU but would not be hard Brexit on any definition.

      It may be unacceptable to nationalists seeking any excuse for indyref2, that does not mean it would not be acceptable to most Scots who want a reasonable compromise on Brexit and to move on

    159. jfngw says:

      @HYUFD

      As your leader is so keen on red lines, you really need to understand what the SNP red lines are. And it is not being just a member of the CU, it is SM & CU. This is the compromise they have declared.

      It is not the SNP that have asked for a referendum but the Scottish parliament elected by the people of Scotland. Reinforced by returning a majority of Scottish MP’s at Westminster also. A mandate in a proportional system and a FPTP system.

    160. Hamish100 says:

      As long as we remember Brexit is bad for Scotland and as such we need a vote for independence.

    161. HYUFD says:

      K1 Westminster is the supreme UK Parliament created by the Act of Union so yes it can, even on the argument of ‘the people of Scotland’ have to consent to remain in the Union the only consistent Yes to leaving the Union and independence leads in terms of Brexit outcomes are with No Deal and even then that is not every poll so that does not apply either

    162. HYUFD says:

      jfngw Only 46% of Scots voted for the SNP in 2016 and only 37% voted for the SNP in 2017 and that is only counting those who voted so no a majority of adult Scots have not voted SNP or for their manifesto in either the last Holyrood or Westminster elections

    163. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      HYUFD @ 23:24,

      Excuse me, but your cringe is showing (again). It’s NOT the “Act of Union”, you ignoramus. We weren’t absorbed by some fiat of England.

      But about the level of your other “contributions”, alas. (Are you actually English?)

    164. yesindyref2 says:

      It must be Yawn O’clock, when tales of fantasy and outright fiction compete for space with the ghouls and gooseties, but in no particular ordure.

    165. Hamish100 says:

      Fud how many vote for the tories? Thought so.

    166. William Wallace says:

      Look at the absolute state o this mad hoose. 🙂

      It’s aboot time a wee tidy up was had.

      /Dons apron (no a butchers ane)
      /pits the furniture upright
      /bins ah the bottles and cans
      /Cleans up debris 😉
      /Throws abody oot 🙂

      Anarchy richt enough. 😉 🙂

      I need a drink! 🙂

    167. jfngw says:

      @HYUFD

      That’s not how parliament works, I didn’t say the majority voted SNP. In FPTP it is the number of seats you take that counts, in Holyrood it is the number of MSP votes that count. In both of these the majority of MP’s/MSP support indyref.

      Are you saying that a government is only legitimate if it alone wins more than 50% of the vote, because that would negate every law passed at WM in my lifetime. Or are you saying that a democratic vote in Holyrood is invalid. Either way it seems you have a problem with democracy.

    168. CameronB Brodie says:

      Give a rest, despotism and a disrespect for the rule-of-law is too had a sell for you to make. Times are changing, Toryboy.

      Sovereignty and Inequality

      Abstract

      Inequality within and between societies has been a neglected issue in the contemporary theory of international law. The concept of sovereignty makes this neglect possible in traditional international law, as analysis of Oppenheim’s 1905 textbook. demonstrates.

      Globalization and democratization are placing state sovereignty under strain, as international rules and institutions appear to become more intrusive, transnational civil society more active, and unitary state control less pronounced. State sovereignty as a normative concept is increasingly challenged, especially by a functional view in which the state loses its normative priority and competes with supranational, private, and local actors in the optimal allocation of regulatory authority.

      But discarding sovereignty in favour of a functional approach will intensify inequality, weakening restraints on coercive intervention, diminishing critical roles of the state as a locus of identity and an autonomous zone of politics, and
      redividing the worId into zones. The traditional normative concept of sovereignty is strained and flawed, but in the absence of better means to manage inequality it remains preferable to any of the alternatives on offer.

      https://academic.oup.com/ejil/article-pdf/9/4/599/6723797/9-4-599.pdf

    169. cynicalHighlander says:

      Gfaetheblock says:
      27 March, 2019 at 11:02 pm

      Cynicalhighlander

      That is asset value, not annual income.

      They are assets which increase in value because they are fluid not assets as in building which are a fixed asset based on a fixed figure ie rent value. One can’t sell the same ad infinitum whereas fluid assets are sellable continuably as long as the production is there to replace that asset.

    170. dakk says:

      When the inbred flat earth bigots of the DUP keep tory England in the EU against it’s will then we shall finally see the beginning of the end of the UK.

      Those lazy corrupt parasites will kill britnat solidarity and unionism for good.

      Delicious irony.

    171. Dr Jim says:

      @Robert J Sutherland

      Nothing hasty about what I said Robert I know exactly which post I was agreeing with Robert Peffers on and why the poster wrote what they did and the motive behind it because I’ve seen it before only a matter of weeks ago and because I agreed with Mr Peffers I addressed him in particular and not the poster

      If you disagree with my post to Robert Peffers that’s your choice but to appoint yourself as arbiter of what others post to each other doesn’t make you right in your personal assessment of the quality of anyone else’s opinion it just means you also have an opinion which carries the same weight as mine which in the great scheme of opinions is no weight whatsoever

      What posters say on this site means nothing to anyone, it’s a talking shop that carries no gravitas, if readers enjoy it that’s nice if they don’t they won’t read it, the only thing on this site that is important is that the contributers hopefully support Independence for Scotland and support for the people who are trying to get it for Scotland, when I see people who are not of this mind posting on this site I, like Robert Peffers don’t like it and will have no respect for those people

      I seldom engage directly with them as Robert Peffers does (sometimes I do slip) that’s why I made my remarks directly to him and no other

    172. HYUFD says:

      jfngw Even if you state Westminster is not the supreme Parliament of the Union and it can be ignored as Scotland’s future depends on the people of Scotland and not Westminster consent that by definition requires over 50% of Scots to vote SNP on a manifesto for independence or indyref2, that did not happen in either 2016 or 2017

    173. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. the DUP. Time for a bit more Evolutionary Psychology and stuff? 🙂

      The Evolutionary Psychology Behind Politics: How Conservatism and Liberalism Evolved Within Humans
      culturism.us/booksummaries/EvPsychBehndPolitics.pdf

      The Secret Lives of Liberals and Conservatives: Personality Profiles, Interaction Styles, and the Things They Leave Behind
      https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1467-9221.2008.00668.x

      Conservatism as a situated identity: Implications for consumer behavior
      https://dornsife.usc.edu/assets/sites/782/docs/Conservatism_as_a_situated_identity_-_Oyserman__Schwarz_2017.pdf

      Shifting Liberal and Conservative Attitudes Using Moral Foundations Theory
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4858184/

    174. HandandShrimp says:

      About the only thing Westminster can agree is the size of MPs’ pay rises.

    175. jfngw says:

      @HYUFD

      No it doesn’t, the SNP did not receive > 50% in 2011 yet they had a referendum. All that is needed is more than 50% of MSP’s to vote for a referendum, that’s how parliaments work. They then need more than 50% to vote for independence. You seem to be writing mince!

      If more than 50% vote SNP, and it was in their manifesto, no referendum would be needed, they could then begin negotiations to end the union.

    176. Tam the Bam. says:

      The Rev has fallen in love with ‘ Auld Reekie!’

      Come home Stu… you know its where your heart lies.

      p.s. The Separats will love ‘Reekie Rats.’

    177. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      HYUFD at 11.26

      The elections you talk of were not independence elections and it is a recognised fact that around 30% of labour voters will vote YES to independence as will smaller percentages of the Tory and LibDem parties. (Quite a few of them have declared for independence in recent weeks).The Greens of course support indpendence so there is a significant majority for independence in the Scottish Parliament. You really should come to Scotland and understand that repeating unionist shite that is fed to English audiences in the media is actually just that – repeating shite.

      The SNP fought neither of those elections you reference on independence. The fought them exclusively on the record of the SNP in government in Scotland. That’s all. it has more MPs than the other three parties put together, more MSPs by a long way, more councillors and more MEPs.

      The next YES campaign will be fought – as was the last one – by a YES coalition,not by the SNP.

      Please sharpen up
      No. Don’t bother. I really can’t take much more boredom.

    178. HYUFD says:

      Yes it does, the SNP only had a referendum in 2014 as Westminster consented to it. The premise was based on the circumstance where Westminster did not consent to such a referendum again.

      If 50% of all adult Scots voted SNP with independence in their manifesto then there could be a case for saying there could be independence without Westminster consent but the SNP got nowhere near that many votes even in 2011 or 2015

    179. CameronB Brodie says:

      If folk are getting sick of me posting Evolutionary Psychology stuff, then simply stop triggering me. So no mention of the Northern Irish bigots who may well determine Scotland’s future. 😉

    180. yesindyref2 says:

      @HYFUD
      In 2015 the Conservatives were elected with a majority and became the UK Government, then then held an EU Referendum – remember that?

      Their vote?

      36.9% of the electorate.

      You’re talking pish, to coin a phrase.

    181. Liz g says:

      Well as if this Tory Brexit wasn’t narcissistic enough..

      We’re “told” an emotional PM will leave,… yes , she will go that far to get her deal through because Brexit just has to be delivered…. and delivered in the next few weeks too…

      And some of the fuckers at the meeting actually seem to believe it…
      That’s not what I saw in the reports….
      She seems to want, what she’s always wanted.. A LEGACY….

      She wants future Tory MPs to be constantly crowing that it was “A Conservative Prime Minister that ya da ya da ya da” ..
      We all know the script,she’ll even go as far as resigning if they “give” her her LEGACY.

      Yet surprise,surprise not one part of the MSM are reporting it like this…. I can’t be the only one who took the desire for a Legacy from what she is doing…. But none, not one of the MSM so far are speculating,even after everything,that this, is really what matters to her.
      Yet I think it so obvious she wants to leave after having delivered Brexit!
      We know she thinks Brext is bad for people…
      We know she couldn’t get anything decent from the EU..
      We know Westminster hate her deal..
      We know she has to go.
      She could leave and let it all get sorted out.
      She’s an old women comfortably off enough to retire!
      She won’t suffer no matter how it turns out.
      But No
      She wants that bloody deal,she seem to need that bloody deal.
      And no one in the MSM is askin WHY!!

    182. Mike Cassidy says:

      Amazing how easily the old man of Kelty gets under the skin of the Garys of this world.

      Make a big one at that back weavong class,Robert. Its going to have to accomodate a basket case or two?

    183. HYUFD says:

      Yesindyref2 True but there is no ‘Declaration of Arbroath’ requiring consent of a majority of the UK population for an action such as Leaving the EU, if there was then had the say the EU refused to recognise such a referendum the UK government could not have held it

    184. galamcennalath says:

      The SNP only voted for …

      Margaret Beckett’s motion M (Confirmatory public vote)

      Joanna Cherry’s motion L (Revocation to avoid no deal)

      … every other option is outwith their red line of Customs Union PLUS full Single Membership.

      The ONLY Brexit solution being discussed at WM which will meet the Scottish Parliament’s requirements is REVOCATION.

      Should revocation not occur, the only remaining solution is for the SP to move towards delivering independence.

    185. yesindyref2 says:

      Jings HYFUD, you are quite crawlingly embarrassing at times in your ignorance, if you’re going to quote something, at least have read it and understood it first!

      As long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours, that we are fighting, but for freedom – for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself“.

      the rest of your posting makes as much sense as an icicle in a bread oven.

    186. Cubby says:

      I see the FUD is back with the same old lies and Britnat crap that he spouts.

      There is something in the DNA of Tories that allows them to lie, cheat, deceive, be incompetent and humiliate the UK but still have no sense of shame or embarrassment. What a brass neck these Tories have. Some say we shouldn’t really call the Tories scum. Anyone got a better description.

      The Maybot or the HYFUD both made the same way.

    187. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2 @ 12.48
      Ha Ha Ha…. That’s a cracker it could be said… He’s actually arguing that a hundred of us… as long as we’re alive…. Can end the Union.
      I think we could manage that! 🙂

      My auld grannie wis right stuipt people don’t know they’re stuipt

    188. HYUFD says:

      galamcennalath No as the SNP has no mandate from a majority of the Scottish people for independence unless Brexit is revoked, as general election 2017 held after Brexit when the SNP got just 37% of the vote confirms

    189. HYUFD says:

      Yesindyref2 If 100 SNP supporters want to fight to the death for independence fine by me

    190. cynicalHighlander says:

      @ yesindyref2 says:
      28 March, 2019 at 12:48 am

      icicle in a bread oven.

      That is wunderbar

    191. yesindyref2 says:

      🙂

    192. Liz g says:

      HYFUD @ 1.01
      Whit bit of – The Hundred of Us Need To Remain Alive – are you no getting….
      Is it per chance when you see the word REMAIN you automatically don’t comprehend it?

    193. jockmcx says:

      Alyn Smith – Leave A Light On
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2PeSJ4EOKs

      Danny Wilson – Mary’s Prayer
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hqgC3W9GUI

      feel bad for our english friends tonight.

    194. Liz g says:

      jockmcx @ 1.11
      Aye you and me both Jock!
      When Indy turned from a wish that the Union had never happened and we should always have had nothing to do with the rot that was Westminster.
      To we can put this right….
      I took a look at the argument for staying with it and changing it from within.. It would take decades I don’t have and that I’m not willing to throw Scotland’s young at..

      Good Grief Jock…. Have the English got a task in front of them…. and most of them are no where near even understanding that it even needs to change yet!

      We have to move,that’s obvious,but tonight it’s especially obvious that they are heading for such a hard time,it would take a heart of stone not to worry for them…

    195. North chiel says:

      For the past couple of weeks the Westminster establishment propaganda wing has been attempting to “ con” people ( as per usual) into believing that the PM had never intended to resign over her “ Brexit deal” . Following the “ internal coup in the governing Tory party which anointed her as PM ( the Britnat Tory hierarchy went completely to ground for about a week before they could “ finalise the coup”), at the very outset ,she was “ the chosen one” who’s sole “ raisin d’etre “ under orders from the Britnat establishment , was to GET US OUT OF THE EU at any cost ( with the proviso that the “precious precious union “ was simoultaneously to be “ held firm”). That was her sole and primary purpose as the” chosen one” . At that time , she would have been given assurances from “ establishment grandees” that thereafter , she would “ stand down” , and her future “ place in history” ( and of course House of Lords seat & title ), would be assured. If people didn’t know before, then they should certainly now be aware that the PM is nothing other than “ the front person” for the Britnat Westminster establishment. ( with a limited shelf life).
      The media “ con” being nothing more than another attempt to gain support for “ her deal” attempting to convince the public ( and obviously some MP’s) , that her resignation pledge following her deal being passed was something extraordinarily “ noble and principalled “ , the truth being that in fact she would have ( and will) stood down ( as planned) , if/when her deal was approved. Conversely, if she failed ( or does fail) , she would have had to resign anyway.
      Anyway folks , is it beginning to look that “ the precious precious union” ( and I am specifically referring to the 1707 treaty of union and not the Irish border issue) “ trumps” Brexit? Time will tell , however even if “ Westminster “were to now to sanction a second EU referendum and the decision to leave was reversed , significant and probably irreparable damage has now been inflicted on “ the precious precious union” as the “ U.K.” union has been completely exposed as an utter “ democratic embarrassment “ in comparison with the “ genuine union of Independent states” which constitutes the “European Union”. Surely the people of Scotland can now CLEARLY SEE the difference between how Scotland has been shamefully sidelined by Westminster compared with how Ireland has been “ backed up to the hilt” by the “ GENUINE “ union of EU states.

    196. Liz g says:

      North cheil @ 2.11
      Nicely put…
      In fact so much better than what I was trying to say..
      Where I read like a conspiracy nut @ 12.47.
      I absolutely agree that the damage has already been done, they didn’t have much in 2014..
      But they have nothing now but, to pretend to end the chaos and get “ back to normal “.
      All we need to show to counter it is.. that’s no happening anytime soon…
      Because Westminster is incapable of change!
      Even if Brexit were cancelled tomorrow.. we in Scotland will always live under the threat of the voters in England doing this again.
      Westminster doesn’t have the power to agree that it could never happen!!
      Must we agree to having to depend on Scotland’s politicians always being able to head off the will of the English voters….. Could We…. Should We???

    197. Liz g says:

      Me @ 2.35
      ……., sorry hit send before I should have…..
      Re.. Could we/Should we
      Of course we should, but our current system doesn’t ensure we Could.
      Nevertheless, we should because we are Treaty bound to the Westminster Union.
      But that begs the question… is this Union Working for England?
      They are being held right now by N. Ireland ( I know but !! )
      Scotland might yet subvert their will ??
      The most obvious conclusion is the Union doesn’t work..
      Well not for the Voters in any part of it… so who exactly is it workin for?

    198. Ghillie says:

      OT/ Sorry haven’t had time to catch up on comments yet.

      Did Ian Murray go along with Labour whip and abstain on Revoke Article 50 today?

      If so, he has gone against his word (yup, no surprise there) and has utterly betrayed the people of Morningside South who are strong Remainers.

      Independence is gaining ground.

    199. North chiel says:

      “ liz@0248” you’ve answered the question yourself Liz, who exactly does the union work for?
      Answer : “ wholly and exclusively for the Britnat Westminster establishment” and nobody else.

    200. Nana says:

      Once again after last evening’s farcical goings on in the house of horrors, articles could well be past their sell by date just like the Tories

      https://www.gov.scot/news/new-look-baby-box-ready-for-mothers-day/

      First Minister welcomes free personal care following ‘Frank’s Law’ campaign
      http://archive.is/e5sat

      Tommy says
      Maybe his post should be renamed Secretary of State Against Scotland.
      https://twitter.com/TommySheppard/status/1110883144893370369

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2019/03/27/reporting-scotland-blinks-as-nhs-scotland-smashes-addiction-treatment-waiting-times/

    201. Nana says:

      Tommy Sheppard says “the bunting will have to be put back in the attic”
      video
      https://twitter.com/GrantDCostello/status/1111007417234530306

      https://theorkneynews.scot/2019/03/25/this-new-technology-could-be-a-game-changer-for-the-scottish-economy/

      theSNP: RT BBCPolitics: Theresa May is “liable, responsible, culpable for the chaos that is the #Brexit debacle” says SNP’s Stewart Hosie, calling on PM to resign
      VIDEO
      https://twitter.com/newssnp/status/1110901621817528322

      Suspended council chief quits £115,000 a year job
      http://archive.is/kOan0

    202. Nana says:

      Coming soon on Brexitshambles – Why the shocking reluctance of parliament and the judiciary to enforce Britain’s electoral laws has placed us in a turmoil created by Leave’s well proven illegal activities which procured the 2016 EU referendum result.
      https://twitter.com/brexit_sham/status/1110839929427369984

      https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/03/27/the-obscene-moral-spectacle-of-theresa-may-s-resignation

      Ross Thompson meeting some far right pals
      https://twitter.com/CatalansForYes/status/1110984023495585792

      Commons report rules Dominic Cummings in contempt of parliament
      http://archive.is/uzp8m

    203. Nana says:

      https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2019/0327/1039051-brexit-indicative-votes/

      NEW: Right. Will there, or will there not be a border in Northern Ireland in the event of a ‘no deal’ #brexit? Today HMRC is holding conversations with NI business groups on what happens. I have copy of the talking points handed out. What do we learn? 1/Thread
      https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1110863264131497985

      https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/results-of-indicative-votes-on-brexit-alternatives-revealed-1-5963517

      https://inews.co.uk/news/theresa-may-brexit-speech-government-spent-12k-30k-promoting-facebook

    204. robertknight says:

      Never thought that I’d see the day when the Demented Ulster Puritans put a smile on my face by doing anything other than rolling themselves into a ball and spontaneously combusting.

      Having thought the DUP had been bought and paid for for, I’d love to ask the PM a simple question – in the words of Johnny Rotten, “Ever get the feeling you’ve been cheated?” ?

    205. Ken500 says:

      Brexit is just a complete and utter shambles. The truth is the UK cannot leave the EU in any way shape or form, without catastrophe. Damaging the world economy. It will damage Scotland the most. The EU menbership costs nothing and only bring benefit to Scotland. The Union with the rest of the UK does not benefit Scotland but takes £20Billion out of Scotland every year. Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion.

      The DUP crooks know they can’t vote for it. It would destroy the Irish economy. They will lose support. No one will vote for them. Ireland will unite for a better future. Denied to them by illegal Partition. The illegal British State. Totally cruel and violent actions in Ireland. Totally unneccassary senseless waste of lives and suffering.

      The British State/Westminster a total bunch of bullying cowards on a poor and defenceless people. That will never be forgiven or forgot. No matter how many apologises are given. The Irish are not so defenceless now in the EU. Standing up for the Irish Republic for justice and peace.

      The Tories are doing what they always do, damaging the world economy because of rifts within their own Party. Just like the rest of the unionists Parties. Incompetent and useless beyond belif. They betrayed NHS, Education and welfare they promised and were supposed to protect. They cut all the funding. It was totally unnecessary. They had pledged to protect them, in manifesto promises. but Introduced Austerity which made everything worse. Sanctioning and starving people. Appallingly. There was absolutely no need because the tax take went up in the UK from £533Billion to £628Billion in a year.

      Tax cuts for the wealthy. Totally wrong. Tax evasion is rife. There was no need to bring in illegal sanctions on the poorer. The Tory/unionists illegal actions. That is what should be sorted out not imposed austerity. Bringing harm to so many decent people. It is an appalling way to carry on and costs more,

      There was not need for austerity. The NHS should not have been cut £4Billion a year from 2015 -2000 (£20Billion of ‘savings’) The Tories have had to put more money in. The money they took out. The services are appalling, in the rest of the UK. There was not need to cut Education £6Billion a year (Clegg) from 2015 to 2020.

      The SNP has had to mitigate all these cuts. The bedroom tax, social care, bus passes (not on the Trams. Should be), nursery care. Uni support, colleges new skills and apprenticeships. Scotland is changing for the better. Independence and self governance will totally change Scotland for the better. No interfence from the Westminster unionists imbeciles taking £Billions out of Scotland. Lying sychophants.

      Scotland could be in line with Norway. Raising £80Billion in tax revenues. Putting a bit by fit later. On a brilliant diverse economy. Scotland one of the best economy in the world and the most beautiful. Scottish invention and theory shaped the modern world. Recognised the world over. China, India, US, EU, Russia (RT) etc and many more have great ties with Scotland.

      Clegg now working for the criminal tax evader, illegal data selling criminal Suckerman trying to cover up his crimes. After supporting and covering up for Cameron. Sucking up. Cameron took the mug to the cleaners to hold an EU Ref. Now troughing from the public purse. Cameron the British Chinese Consortium. Robbing the public purses once again. The total waste of money HS2 and Hinkley Point. Just a public disgrace. Embezzling public money. With absolutely no business case. They should be put in jail. International criminals. Spoiling and killing the world. No democracy. Cheating and lying. Absolutely no scruples. They will faced the music and the Judges soon.

      Dugdale another lying imbecile, responsible by their actions for all this carnage. A complete and utter wasteless tool. Illegally telling people to vote Tory. What a spiv and despised. That is what has led to her demise. She still can’t help insulting people. It is because of Dugdale illegal action that the Tory have managed to do all this. A shower of sychophant Tory psycho bastards with their wanton enablers. What a useless shower of liars. Lie, after lie, after lie. Misusing the public purse with impunity. Breaking every vow and oath that they take. Totally not fit people for representation. . They lie about that as well. They are not fit for pubic office. Compulsive irrational liars. Hell mend them. People are annoyed and raging. No wonder.

    206. Nana says:

      Businessman detained at Gatwick over anti-Brexit badge
      http://archive.is/cSvR6

      Brexit Westminster is like the Crystal Maze on crystal meth
      http://archive.is/CblJ0

      https://www.politico.eu/article/how-uk-lost-brexit-eu-negotiation/

      Indycar Gordon Ross 27.3.19 pt1 – Britishness. Irishness. Scottishness.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpB4P2rY4Lc

    207. Nana says:

      Indycar Gordon Ross 27.3.19 pt2 – Scotland sets up trade embassies in its key markets.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMRNUzD2EFM

    208. Macart says:

      Mornin’ Nana

      Carnage and farce last night to be sure. Still need the cherry on top though, but not too much longer. 🙂

    209. Ken500 says:

      Imagine Gove as PM. That would finish them off. He is a complete and utter imbecile. An alcoholic just look at him. Alcoholics make poor decisions without proper counselling and help.

      Criminal Johnstone would not last a month with so many Skeletons in his copboard. Criminal behaviour. The Tories do not even like him. No wonder. A complete nincompoop. Deranged,

      If Scotland want to hold another EU Ref it just needs to get section 30 from the Courts. They would grant permission because of deficiency of Democracy in the UK. Scotland out voted 10 to 1. That is why Devolution was introduced. Blair The UK would have been throw out of the EU/UN for breaking International Law. Holyrood was introduced with as little powers as possible to keep Westminster control.

      Blair broke Inrernatiional Law in any case. The cause of all the chaotic mess. Ruling the world economy. The migrant crisis of people coming to Europe was caused by Blair. The abusing psychopath. He should be in jail. Along with Brown crashed the banks and the world economy. Crooked Psychopaths.

      Independence can’t come soon enough. Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. For peace and happiness in the world. To change the world for the better. It can be done. Just vote for it.

      Iraq War, Dunblane, Lockerbie kept secret for 100 years. What are they hiding now? That should be exposed, More lies.

    210. Dorothy Devine says:

      Good morning Nana and may I say thank you for the cheering news on baby boxes , addiction waiting times and free personal care for those in need under 65.

      It is so good to see that the Scottish Government are doing a great day job while those ensconced in Westminster are ensuring Scotland is heard above the rabble.

      It was particularly cheering today as some irritants appeared on this site and some verbose concerned folk wrote essays on how very bad Wingers were.

      It descended into what can only be described as petty squabbling from those who should know better and no Cactus to lighten the load.

      I will now return to your links and attempt to maintain a relatively calm persona!

    211. schrodingers cat says:

      some posters criticising the snp strategy without clarifying exactly what they believe the snp strategy is.

      so to remove any doubt, the snp strategy is,

      to do everything in its power to convince the people of scotland to back independence. currently about 47%

      of course, this doesnt happen in a vacuum, the antics of the tories and labour also contribute to this endevour

      this fiasco will only end in one way. a general election, either before we leave with no deal or after it.

      corbyn will be desperate to talk about anything but brexit, but it wont wash, after this extended period of navel gazing, the only thing people will be interested about is brexit. it will be a brexit election not a general election.

      the people of scotland will have a very clear choice

      1. vote tory for a no deal brexit.
      even the tory mps, msps, members and voters will find that hard to swallow

      2. vote labour, for even more of this goat rodeo.
      the bounce has defintely gone from corbyns bungy. whatever momentum he had last time round has now dissipated. the full scale war that will erupt in the labour party during the election will effectively rule out labour as a realistic option for voters across the uk, not just in scotland.
      if slab mps, msps and party members wont back him, neither will the voters here.

      3. vote libdem, if you want to waste your vote.

      4. vote snp for the uk to stay in the eu, if not the uk, then at least for scotland to stay in the eu. if the only way to bring about this is independence, then so be it.

      the snps biggest concern, voter apathy, wont be an issue this time round. but it will be for the unionists

    212. jfngw says:

      @HYUFD

      Sorry, went to bed last night so missed your reply at the time. Just to point out in 2015 the SNP achieved 50% of the vote, if you include the Green vote then independence voting parties exceeded 50%. The problem was the SNP did not put independence in their manifesto, so could not claim it as at independence mandate. Nor did they in 2017.

      It is a risky business using an election as a independence referendum, especially in a four party system, as their is more at play than a single subject.

      I assume you believe the EU referendum was illegitimate also as the Tories achieved nowhere near 50% of the vote, and remember under your rules other parties votes to pass legislation is not allowed.

    213. Moonlight says:

      Why has Scotgov bought the 2 Northern Isles ferries.
      Thing about ships, you can point them in any direction where there is sufficient water.
      Look at the number of oil supply vessels moored off Aberdeen. Plenty of capacity there to supply the Northern Isles.
      North South or East West?? Mmmmmm_

    214. Nana says:

      Morning Macart

      This Cherry getting angry as are we all
      https://twitter.com/Alexx_McArthur/status/1111023798336266247

      Morning Dorothy,
      Prof John’s site has been my ‘go to’ site for good news about Scotland.
      Now that G A Ponsonby has shut up shop we need the Prof to keep an eye on the propaganda for us
      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/

    215. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Ghillie @ 03:00,

      Murray did vote for the “revocation” motion:

      https://commonsvotes.digiminster.com/Divisions/Details/660

      (Link thanks to gala yesterday.)

      On the radio this morn, historian Anthony Sheldon saying this is the worst constitutional crisis for 300 years. For the whole of the existence of the UK then. If there isn’t a better time to call it quits then I defy anyone to suggest an alternative.

    216. TheItalianJob says:

      @RJ Sutherland

      Good point. If now is not the time for Scotland to leave the Union then I don’t see a better time to do so.

    217. K1 says:

      HYUFD says:
      28 March, 2019 at 12:39 am
      Yesindyref2 True but there is no ‘Declaration of Arbroath’ requiring consent of a majority of the UK population for an action such as Leaving the EU, if there was then had the say the EU refused to recognise such a referendum the UK government could not have held it

    218. Bobp says:

      CameronBbrodie 12.24am.If ireland unites before Scottish independence,then the northern irish bigots will certainly determine Scotlands future. With a mass exodus of those same bigots to the west of Scotland.

    219. Jack Murphy says:

      OT.
      “German companies could pull investment out of Scotland if post-Brexit trade becomes too difficult, a leading industry group has said.

      The risk was highlighted by Alexander Altmann, from the British Chambers of Commerce in Germany.

      German companies such as manufacturer Siemens and supermarket Lidl employ thousands of people in Scotland…….”

      Let’s do it our way—–independence for Scotland in the European Union.

      BBC Scotland Business:
      http://archive.is/wcm0V

    220. K1 says:

      Jack put that last comment you just made onto main thread, it’s relevant and exactly the information that needs to be ladled down people’s throats in truly understanding what UKexit really means on the ground.

    221. wull says:

      It used to be the case that Prime Ministers resigned when they lost a vote in the Commons, especially one on a major issue.

      Teresa May lost a vote twice on the biggest issue of many a long day, and stayed on. The first time round she lost the vote by the biggest margin ever of any sitting government.

      Ever since the UK parliament was first invented, in 1707, no government has lost anything as spectacularly, or so often in rapid succession, as she did. Yet she still stayed on.

      Having broken the predominant previous precedent by staying on when she loses, she now says she will set an entirely new precedent which no one has ever heard of, or seen, or maybe even dreamed of before. Instead of resigning when she LOSES, she has now promised to resign if she WINS.

      Such is the topsy-turvy, upside-down state of contemporary Westminster politics.

      This ‘LEAVE or REMAIN’ stuff has obviously got into Teresa May’s mind in an amazing way. She’ll LEAVE No. 10 Downing Street if she gets her deal through, and she’ll REMAIN there if she doesn’t.

      Maybe it’s a sign that she expects it to be voted down a third time? So that she can just stay there for as long as possible. After all, she was originally a ‘Remainer’ and she always wanted to be PM. So just staying there will do fine.

      Besides which, staying there will mean she’ll be able to give the people exactly what they voted for. As she (apparently) said, when ‘the people’ voted for Brexit, they voted for pain. And who better to supply it than her?

      When they vote down her deal yet again, (if they find a way to do that, so that Bercow can allow it), that’ll give her the perfect mandate for staying on …

      She’s a real Remainer after all … There’ll be nothing left of the rest of us, but she’ll still be there … Let’s get out of here (the UK) fast …

    222. CameronB Brodie says:

      Bobp
      That truly is a scary prospect. Scotland’s politics would be polluted with reactionary conservatism and our social environment would suffer.

    223. Bobp says:

      CameronBrodie. Absolutely, which is why Scotland has to grab the mantle of independence very soon.

    224. yesindyref2 says:

      I personally think “wankhole” is a bit close to the bone.

      Do I get credit for that one, or have loads of people already come up with it?

      🙂



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