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Learning to speak Kezia

Posted on September 28, 2018 by

We hadn’t been intending to talk about this again today, but the John Beattie show on Radio Scotland just ran a segment that we really can’t let go unremarked.

Here’s the whole thing. Some of that’s going to need interpreting for the sane.

The quote everyone’s leapt on is this:

“The Labour Party made a promise and it’s not a good look for any political party to fail to keep its promise. And this is what it’s doing to one of its own, so how can people trust that party in any other aspect of life?”

And while we agree wholeheartedly with the wider sentiment with regard to trusting Labour, there’s no actual evidence that the party HAS broken any promise to Dugdale.

(We notice, incidentally, that Dugdale’s Twitter bio – pictured below in late 2017, last week and today – no longer contains any mention of Labour, but she apparently still wants them to fund her anyway.)

The line we found more interesting was this one:

“This is a party that is fundamentally about fairness, equality and justice, and they’ve put me in the most horrendous position.”

Let’s break those three qualities down, shall we?


Kezia Dugdale is subject to the laws of the land, the same as anyone else. But she’s already the beneficiary of rather MORE than fairness. She has rights – in the form of Parliamentary privilege – not available to ordinary members of society.

That means she was able to repeat her false and grossly offensive allegations for seven minutes unchallenged on national television, and there’s absolutely nothing anyone can do about it. (The current case only cites her Daily Record column.) She has legal rights over defamation that 99.99% of us don’t. Is that “fair”?


Kezia Dugdale is paid around £60,000pa by the taxpayer, despite voters having resoundingly rejected her at the last election. That’s over twice the salary I take as editor of Wings. She also owns a house (I don’t), was recently paid £30,000 (after tax) to abandon her constituents for several weeks for a “celebrity” TV show, and has received £94,000 in support from the Labour Party up to now.

In contrast, we’ve gathered just £14,000 or so from a fundraiser.

That’s a financial advantage of at LEAST £140,000 so far, to which we must now add slightly woolly and unquantifiable “legal support” from the Daily Record. So it’s awfully difficult to see where any inequality against Kezia Dugdale could be said to have manifested itself there. The opposite seems plainly true.


Dugdale’s focus so far in fighting the case has been to avoid it being heard at all. The vast sums of Labour’s money she’s spent have been on an unsuccessful (thus far) attempt to have it thrown out without any evidence being led, for a constantly-shifting set of reasons. She’s currently engaged in what will be an expensive appeal process likely to prolong the case for several more months.

It would have been perfectly possible, had Dugdale been prepared to do so, to avoid those steps entirely and simply agree to seek a sheriff’s judgement over the contested claims. The entire matter could easily have been concluded in court, with highly-qualified advocates, a year ago for probably no more than £10,000 in costs on each side.

That it has instead taken so long and cost so much is solely Kezia Dugdale’s doing. Our side has offered several out-of-court settlements and we also offered the rapid, much cheaper route straight to a decision (in legal jargon, a “proof” rather than a “debate”). All were rejected out of hand.

So when Kezia Dugdale demands

“fairness, equality and justice”

…what she actually means is

“a vast financial advantage, preferential treatment in law, and the ability to smear anyone I want without any risk to me personally whatsoever even if I get sued and lose, because other people will pick up the tab, while the people I smeared would be financially crippled because I’ve made it so expensive.”

There’s no charge for this translation service, readers. All part of the job.

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  1. 28 09 18 14:56

    Learning to speak Kezia | speymouth

159 to “Learning to speak Kezia”

  1. Andrew Davidson says:

    Hmm. Your comment about her twitter bio… you seen the National article about her?

    First line:… oh it’s been edited. Curiouser.

    Originally it said she had “blasted her former party”

  2. Street Andrew says:

    By implication, or at least by inference, I’m getting the impression Ms Dugdale thinks she was speaking for the Labour Party, and what she said (allegedly) was perhaps scripted for her ????

    That would seem to be the only basis for her claim of ‘innocence’ in this matter. Or do I mean gullibility ?

    I expect various legal practitioners are rubbing their hands with glee.

    Hey Ho.

  3. Macjim says:

    So, it’s not Kezia that put her foot in it, it was somebody else then….
    #itwizznaeme would be an option for her then…

  4. Bob Mack says:

    Sounds about right.

    Can I also say that this indicates very strongly that Dugdale is no helpless wee lassie. She has used her situation to every advantage,extolling sympathy on media where none was deserved.

    She is a lawyer and must have known what she was doing. It shows manipulation on a grand scale.

  5. Dr Jim says:

    That’s one way of looking at it however Kezia’s way is to go
    Eeeee Mwaaaaa Blaaargh make tears and cow eyes at the camera

    Let’s just say more of a hopeful strategy

  6. len mackay says:

    just wondered if the action was dropped by Wings , could it be done in some way that we , Independent Scotland / SNP would benefit – look good & away from SNP bad – auld pensioner , random thoughts .

  7. ScottishPsyche says:

    That comment stood out when I listened. Does she think she is Joan of Arc or something? There are some serious shenanigans going on here. Just look at all the hacks piling in. They see this as the press defending itself against WoS, that is why they want her to win. It is going to get dirty.

  8. Richard Dido says:

    Street Andrew and Macjim are of my recent mind: that this was a construct, with possibly more than KD involved. Why was the whinge about the Wings Tweet brought up two months after it appeared? Cui Bono?

  9. Martin says:

    If she loses does that mean you get her house ?

  10. Macart says:

    That’s jaw dropping and appalling. 😮

  11. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Hmmm, is Kez just a thrawn little wummin with an over-fondness for Labourite virtue signalling, or was she once given the impression that she would always have a big Labour Party bully stick readily at hand…?

  12. Petra says:

    ..”we must now add slightly woolly and unquantifiable “legal support” from the Daily Record.”

    It no longer exits!

  13. Petra says:

    I posted this on the other thread, Stu. I hope you don’t mind me reposting it.

    @ Jockanese Wind Talker says at 2:29 pm …. ”No doot payed out of their “Local Democracy Reporter” wedge from the British Nationalist State Broadcaster…….This reeks of tax payers money laundered by Westminster being used to prop up a failed British Nationalist politician.”

    Well if the Daily Record back her we’ll be looking for transparency in relation to where the money is coming from. I doubt the vast majority of TV licence-payers in Scotland (it’s ok Robert I know the money goes to the Treasury first, lol) will be non too happy with that.

    And forgot to mention in my last post Stu. Take the case all the way, plus any others that get caught up in this net, as we’re right behind you.

  14. Gary says:

    I suspect the story only made any headway due to the press/BBC hatred of Corbyn, rather than any actual interest in the case itself.

    I wonder if the conclusion of the case will get the same amount of coverage??

  15. yesindyref2 says:

    Parliamentary privelege should only be in close session, with no members of the public present, and certainly no TV coverage. Otherwise it, the MSPs, the Ministers, should be subkect to exactly the same Laws as the rest of us. Same goes for Westminster.

    For Holyrood, that privelege should only apply of the PO has called a “closed session” and as Westminster would say “I spy strangers” to clear the chamber (though the MSPs stay in!).

  16. manandboy says:

    While the truth lies bleeding under Kezia Dugdale’s stiletto heel.

  17. Dugdale and Davidson; the Brit Nat liabilities that just keep giving.
    Her dad should have a word with her.
    Is her ego such that she doesn’t see that she cannot take money from a political party forever?
    In what alternative Universe does she live?

  18. Proud Cybernat says:

    This is what happens when SLabour ‘entitlement’ meets 21st century Scotland. They utterly reek of it and that video demonstrates that attitude of SLabour politicians. They just do not get that Scotland has changed and changed for good. SLabour you took our votes for granted for waaaayyy too long. You were NOT entitled to them. You ABUSED our vote.

    You are entitled to the cubed root of hee-haw. Now shove your bruised ego where the sun don’t shine and make sure the swing of the door doesn’t smack you on the arse on the way out.

    Chancers the lot of you. (Aye – you anaw DR).

  19. yesindyref2 says:

    A danger you’d not really think of, read in an article for the Herald in their STEM initiative with various colleges and Glasgow Uni, including Muscatelli (SNP advisor).

    OVER the last two years alone, the global shipping industry has had to cope with 107 sailors and harbour workers dying unexpectedly from lack of oxygen while working in enclosed spaces

    That’s a real shocker, not something you hear about, and the following paragraphs about first second and even third responsers suffering the same fate. And danger to crew quarters next to them.

    This initiative from the Herald is in my opinion, strong and positive for Scotland for a refreshing change, whether Indy or Unionist, so deserves a direct link and encouragement.

  20. Dugdale and Davidson; the Harpies of the Brit Nats.
    Never there when the Brxshit hits the fa

  21. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    yesindyref2 @ 15:09,

    Don’t agree with you there. But it should be within the power (and willingness) of the Presiding Officer to hold a member in contempt of Parliament for any abuse of that important privilege.

    (Even if the present holder does seem to be part of the problem in this increasingly-partisan era.)

  22. Dr Jim says:

    Ex leader of a political party whose party won’t now use it’s members money to support her now turns to a newspaper who says they’ll support her but without consulting the people who pay for that newspaper on the presumption all those folk who buy that newspaper agree with the editorial decision to fund a private legal case in favour of a position already rejected by the political party she’s a member of

    One wonders what the folks who buy the Daily Record think of their chosen periodical who makes those sorts of decisions on their behalf

    If it’s mostly Labour supporters who buy the Daily Record, why after their own party has rejected Dugdale financially would they still be wanting to continue to pay for her stupidity all over again by buying that newspaper

    Ooh well I know, the Daily Record believes its readers are stupid so treats them accordingly

  23. manandboy says:

    Kezia Dugdale has been on a Labour Party/BBC/BritNat Media life-support system for most of her political career. All that may be just about to come to an end.

    Truth is Kez has become a liability to the Labour brand here in Scotland. She is a loser desperately trying to retain her seat on the Union Free Money Gravy Train and Corbyn and his advisers probably recognise that.

  24. winifred mccartney says:

    Kezia says she hope Labour might still change their mind (re legal fees) after what she has just said I don’t think so. She really should try engaging her brain before her mouth and remember that this is what got her into trouble in the first place. I don’t think this was really about homophobia but rather about Stu’s forensic examination of her ‘work’ or lack of it. She should maybe be looking at the labour people in the seats beside her and ask why none of them were willing to take on the poison chalice.

  25. Petra says:

    ..”That means she was able to repeat her false and grossly offensive allegations for seven minutes unchallenged on national television, and there’s absolutely nothing anyone can do about it.”..

    I notice that no Tory politician was daft enough to stand up and spout a load of rubbish on behalf of their colleague, Mundell, or was a wee deal struck?

    And why did Ken Macintosh, Presiding Officer, not put a stop to it? He’s got a LOT to answer for, imo, in allowing Holyrood to be run like a bl**dy circus, since he took over in May 2016, with him acting as the ringmaster. The best paid ringmaster in the World on £108,000 pa … and the rest.

    Tick, Tock.

  26. robertknight says:

    “It would have been perfectly possible, had Dugdale been prepared to do so, to avoid those steps entirely and simply agree to seek a sheriff’s judgement over the contested claims. The entire matter could easily have been concluded in court, with highly-qualified advocates, a year ago for probably no more than £10,000 in costs on each side.”

    Given her bleating and apparent distress now that the cash flow has been turned off, I wonder if that might not have been her original intention.

    Was she persuaded by someone in SLabour to take an alternative, and financially more risky, course of action, on the basis that SLabour would bank role her case?

    If so, one can only remark ‘oh dear’…

  27. manandboy says:


    Well, for Insurance companies, Mortgage Lenders, Judges, and many others, it is extremely important. For these groups of people, lying usually has serious consequences.

    But not for Politicians – like Kezia Dugdale. For them, lying has become their stock in trade; their normal way of working. For the ruling class, lying has become a way of life.

    But lying has consequences in a Democratic system too. Specifically, lying changes the relationship between the voter and their MP/MSP and, by extension the voters’ relationship with Parliament and ultimately with the Government.
    However, the UK electorate is apparently ill-equipped to deal with this breakdown in relationship caused by lying. The voter does not seem to know how to respond effectively when their elected representative refuses to be truthful with them.

    If there was a legal contract between MP’s and voters then it would be different, but it isn’t.

    Telling the truth should be very important in elections and referendums but it isn’t, and it is casually dismissed by the political establishment whose careers depend on retaining their place in Parliament at all costs.

    So we have the prevailing situation whereby the Leave campaign and the Better Together Indyref14 campaign, both won because they used industrial scale lying to the voters. Had these campaigns been insured, the results would have been held to be invalid and the whole thing declared null and void. But not in politics.

    So the question remains – is the truth still important to Democracy.

    In the UK, the answer from the Establishment is ‘we don’t need the truth, not because it isn’t vital to a healthy Democracy, but because we, the Ruling Class, depends on a very corrupt and sick Democracy – and that’s what we‘ve got in the UK. And that’s the way we like it. You see, it’s for the Few not the Many. Mrs May lied.’

  28. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    robertknight @ 15:49,

    You put the finger on it there, I think. Lawyer that she is, and no dumb cluck, why else would she have taken the course that she did…?

    “Oh dear” indeed.

    Her real mistake though was ever taking the helm of that ship of fools.

  29. Andy-B says:

    Won’t be long till Dugdale’s on the BBC, and being portrayed as a victim of circumstance.

  30. stonefree says:

    @ Street Andrew 2:27 pm

    That would seem to be the only basis for her claim of ‘innocence’ in this matter. Or do I mean gullibility ?

    I think you are bang on with that, similar was said in the Herald comments

  31. jfngw says:

    Looks to me like it was an attempt to make Wings a toxic brand such that anyone quoting it would have the Labour criticism thrown back at them, it was trying to silence this source.

    Do I believe this was purely a one woman decision, I somehow doubt it and I could believe that Labour supported this attack. But nobody else put their head up, maybe they even realised what would happen but were happy to be rid of her. Some probably wanted a Corbynite in the leaders position.

  32. Clootie says:

    ….I guess the Record is not going pro Indy anytime soon!

  33. Richard Dido says:

    So, there is, if not a consensus, then a notion forming that others were involved and indeed may have sought political gain in spurring KD along. The question is: who are they and will we ever find out.

  34. Croompenstein says:

    She’s got a habit of making the wrong decision..

    She could maybe get a job with the SPFL or the SFA 🙂

  35. jfngw says:

    Oh! just seen a tweet from a well known ex something at a Sunday failing newspaper. This is all about feminism apparently, a brave leader of a major party is taking on from what I can tell from the tweet the Scottish equivalent of the Murdoch empire. She is an underdog and now a feminist champion.

    In my opinion she is a ‘silly woman’, she has purely put herself in this position, and if had been a man I would can him a ‘silly prat’. Suppose that sexist as didn’t call him a man, but with all this gender self id’ing around it’s hard not to put your foot in it no matter how you refer to someone.

  36. haudonthenoo says:

    Lawyers ?

    Most I have met are thick as mince.

  37. galamcennalath says:

    It is a measure of the absolute corruption of the media that the aggrieved person, the victim, is the one being attacked. Why? Because of his political beliefs and support for Scottish self determination.

  38. Socrates MacSporran says:

    I notice one or two posters having a go at the current presiding officer at Holyrood. And rightly too in my opinion.

    However, after the excellent examples set by Lord Steel, George Reid, Alex Fergusson and Tricia Marwick, it was “Labour’s turn”, and, when you go to the Labour Party in Scotland, you are fishing in a very shallow talent pool.

    I fear, in pre-devolution days, Ken Macintosh, might, have risen to the heights of being an average “Low-Flying Jimmy,” sadly, he didn’t make the cut there, so we are stuck with hm at Holyrood – a perfect example of a guy promoted way beyond his pay grade – somewhat like Kezia, and any number of other “Scottish Labour” salary and oxygen wasters.

  39. Chick McGregor says:

    Why are both Red and Blue BritNats so willing to bump along together on the bottom of the putrid unionist cess pit?

    Does neither have any self respect?

    Do they not feel shame at what they do?

    Do they simply not care what real people think of them?

    Surely they must, so why do they endure it?

    It certainly is not to uphold democratic principles, that is for sure.

    For the money not the phew! is my best guess.

  40. Bill Hume says:

    I love crowdfunding things like this. For centuries “the poor had no lawyers”
    Now, however……..

  41. Robert Peffers says:

    @haudonthenoo says: 28 September, 2018 at 4:59 pm:

    … Most I have met are thick as mince.”

    Yeah! Well, haudonthenoo, after Theresa’s Minister for post Brexit Rationing gets going, thick mince will only be available on Westminster Government Minister’s menus. Bairns born after that date will say, “What was it like to get yon mince stuff oor teacher telt us aboot, Grandad”?

  42. Arbroath1320 says:

    I can not believe that this is STILL dragging on about who is, or rather is not, paying her legal bills.

    Funnily enough I thought, as the start of this utterly ridiculous affair, originated from her column in the D.R. that having written the piece as a “journalist” then either she herself or her “employer” would/should foot the legal bill i.e. Labour were free to refuse to pay anything because she wrote the piece, in her free time and for a publication that was not owned by the Labour party and therefore the D.R. or herself should foot the bill.

    The longer this fiasco drags on then the bigger the final legal bills are going to be and, in my humble opinion, wee Kez will be well and truly Royally screwed financially and bankrupt to boot meaning she can no longer remain as a Labour M.S.P. Mind you the way that she feels she has been treated by Labour that, in itself, may not be a bad thing for her. Perhaps this will be the only good point to come out of this for her.

    With the current flim flam from the D.R. over whether they will or will not be paying Kez’s legal fees I think, if I were in her shoes, I’d be seeking to shut down completely this legal battle A.S.A.P. The fees are gonna be huge as they are and continuing on will just increase them unnecessarily now.

  43. Lanarkist says:

    Thank you Rev Stu for bringing the video of KD at FMQ when she started tearing into you, your blog and our First Minister.
    It really shows the gulf in talent in our Politicians. Proud of how quickly Nichola can grasp an issue, how astute she is to condemn abuse in general, realise it was a smoke screen to cover the Red Tory coalition in Aberdeen and turn her condemnation on KD for her hypocrisy in allowing Slabour trolls to attack Independence Supporters and Party Members and Representatives.

    Thank goodness for Truth and Principles are surely on our side of the scales in this political skirmish!

  44. Dr Jim says:

    So does this mean the Daily Record are at long last going to stand for Parliament as the *Real Labour* party instead of just running the branch office now

    How can Davie Clegg now pretend to be an impartial political observer of FMQs and Scottish politics in general when he’s now fully outed as a funder of a Labour party members personal finances, and when he loses which he undoubtably will, will the Daily Record be printing the full judgement of the court or will he as usual be blaming the SNP for something they have nothing to do with

    I’m going with blame the SNP with pictures of a crushed Kezia greetin on the front page after having been expelled from her party and humiliated in court and down to a bedsit huddled round a one bar fire, but then again that’ll sell papers too so win win for the Daily Record

    I’m no fan of Kezia Dugdale, well few of us are but listen hen pack this in now take your medicine before everybody makes an even bigger fool of you and you still can’t see it coming and you’ll be lucky to get a job as a nursery helper, actually come to think of it a job you’re probably better suited for

  45. call me dave says:

    All the FTSE’s down & £ down against Dollar and Euro all day.
    Brent Oil $83.1 / barrel a few minutes ago.

    ‘Kezia break’ Duddale: getting a break frae the Record
    Labour(un-named) folk snitch on deal not holding her Jaicket now.

    Haven’t checked the overcrowded trains yet… but y’know all bad!

    Indy coming soon I hope. 🙂

  46. Arbroath1320 says:

    Sorry for O/T here peeps but just came across these over on Munguin’s.

    I think some folks might find this tweet particularly interesting.

    If I were to give out advice to anyone requiring a locksmith I’d definitely be advising them to stay WELL clear of Keytek locksmiths that’s for sure!

  47. twathater says:

    Kez WHAT A TWAT , I agree with proud cybernat ,Dr Jim and everyone else

    This numtie is very very stupid or has been given bad advice , c,mon Kez which is it ?

    I also agree this was a deliberate attempt to silence Stu and destroy the credibility of this website

    WE Scots are very stupid we don’t know when to give in , we are so stupid we keep on fighting , no matter how many times our betters tell us to give in , no matter the odds against us winning , no matter the better finances of our opponents , no matter the lies and misinformation about our government , no matter the bigger number of our opponents , no matter the lies about being to poor , no matter the lies about being incapable

    Haud oan if we’re too stupid tae stop fighting what does that make the brit nats , we will NEVER give in so they are wasting their time trying tae stop us , any sensible person knows you cannot fight or stop progress so they should just give in

    I’ve got it now it’s the brit nats who are the stupidest

    Advice for the brit nats , just give us what we want and we will go and fight somebody else or mibbeess each other

  48. Peter Mirtitsch says:

    When she found out about the funding stopping, her language became something akin to;


  49. ronnie anderson says:

    Rev [ learning to speak like Kezia ] thats wan subject that will never be on the Scottish education curriculum, aw the Wingers wid fail the test at primary wan stage lol.

  50. Frank Gillougley says:

    What struck me was when she said, ‘the party have put me in a horrible position.’
    Errr…. in fairness to the Labour Party, (forehand slap head) I think that YOU, Kezia Dugdale, put YOURSELF in a horrible position.
    Fly wae the crows, get shot wae the crows.
    Let the bunfight begin in all its glorious splendour…

  51. galamcennalath says:

    So, the perpetrator of The Vow is siding with Kezia? She should have low expectations of delivering on promises!

  52. How many tins of beans would £90,000 buy for foodbanks?
    This lass is toast now. Is there no one by her side advising her?
    Likewise Mum2B Davidson the reincarnated Maid of Orleans.
    She is clearly heading for the Exit, never mind Brexit.
    Baroness Davidson of Rodeo?
    Guests spots on the rota of those fucking mindless BBC London Comedy quiz panels.
    ‘My Anguish II’, a follow up to her blockbuster.
    Sub tilted:-
    ‘How I had a baby and gave up my career to bring the little darling up’?

    These chancers are two fleas of the same Money spinning Brit Nat Dug.
    They have done nothing for their parties, and worse still nothing for the people of Scotland.
    They know how to chase the dollar though, but. mind.

  53. manandboy says:

    Never mind, Kez, Artificial Intelligence (AI), is on the way. (Pause) What’s that? Your intelligence is already artificial. Aye right.

  54. Petra says:

    I don’t think that Kezia Dugdale is a solicitor at all. She studied Law at Aberdeen Uni (4 years) and then completed a Master’s Degree in Policy Studies.

    She didn’t study for the mandatory Diploma in Professional Legal Practice (one-year course which you have to pay for) that leads to the 2 year traineeship (when you earn peanuts). Hence she’s not considered to be a solicitor in Scotland. It could very well be that her Law Degree level / exam marks didn’t qualify her to get onto the Diploma course. I also see that it took her 2 years to get her Master’s Degree in Policy Studies, so she either covered it on a part time basis or had to resit (s).

    Wikipedia also outlines that, ”At university she had little real interest in student politics, and rose to become the vice president of the Aberdeen University Dolly Parton Society (AUDPS).

    She’s on course to lose her job and house and I doubt she’d ever be allowed to complete her training and practice Law in Scotland now at all, because she doesn’t seem to meet the criteria between one thing and another such as, being a proven tactless motor-mouth, and clearly lacking the necessary principles of ‘fitness and properness’.

    Just to add that I feel sorry for her parents, who must be totally despairing of it all. Must have been so proud of her when she went on to study at University (ies) and seemed to have such a bright future ahead of her.


    ”Every person who practices as a solicitor in Scotland must maintain the standards of honesty, integrity and professionalism that the public and other members of the profession expect.

    A person cannot be admitted as a solicitor unless they are deemed to be a ‘fit and proper person to be a solicitor’. Any person who practices as a solicitor in Scotland must be competent to do so and should not pose a risk to their clients, the public or other members of the profession.”

  55. gregor says:

    Kezia Dugdale CV:

    * I’m A Celebrity.

    * Unprecedented specialist in failure.

    * Unprecedented liability.

    * Unprecedented gift.

    * Unprecedented lack of awareness.

  56. ScottishPsyche says:

    Whatever happens, her judgement is so poor that she cannot have a position of authority again within SLAb under this leadership.

    I know there have been rumours about Dugdale and letters to the Scotsman under a pseudonym which have never gone beyond speculation, so cannot be expanded on here. I may be wrong but did she not have to delete her blog after solicitors wrote to her on behalf of the Catholic Church in Scotland?

  57. Muscleguy says:

    Two not mutually exclusive things occur to me. Firstly that the prospect of conceding ANYTHING to you causes the red mist of irrationality to descend precluding sensible decisions and secondly her lawyers saw her coming and are milking it in the interests of their bank balances. This need some grownups to come and say ‘enough’ and it seems Corbyn’s central office tried to do that but sense has not descended yet.

    If the perceived risk of bankruptcy is not enough for her to seek a settlement it is clear she never will. Expect any libel win to be appealed endlessly.

  58. Petra says:

    @ Richard Dido says at 4:42 pm …. ”So, there is, if not a consensus, then a notion forming that others were involved and indeed may have sought political gain in spurring KD along. The question is: who are they and will we ever find out.”

    Well Ken Macintosh was chasing after her job, as leader, for starters. Miffed when he lost with 27% support. Did he know that she was going to bring the subject up in advance? In fact as we all know they’ve been stabbing each other in the back for years now – since day one – and probably set her up. Used her as the scapegoat.

    ”Will we ever find out?” KD should go on now and write a best seller. Spill the beans on the lot of them, so-called colleagues, including the Unions and Westminster controllers.


    @ Dr Jim says at 5:33 pm …. ”How can Davie Clegg now pretend to be an impartial political observer of FMQs and Scottish politics in general when he’s now fully outed as a funder of a Labour party members personal finances ..”…..

    ”I’m no fan of Kezia Dugdale, well few of us are but listen hen pack this in now take your medicine before everybody makes an even bigger fool of you and you still can’t see it coming”…

    Just what I was thinking Dr Jim. Clegg has well and truly ”come out” and will he still get a slot as an ”impartial” anything? Good advice for KD by the way, but does she have the insight to see what’s going on? Clegg, as an example, will ultimately put the Labour Party’s interests before hers, especially if he sees her dragging the party down (as she’s still doing).

  59. Lochside says:

    So the mask is ripped off finally…..wee misguided Kez….nice but dim….big burly men feeding her dud info…..aye right!

    The real sociopathic personality underneath emerges, bitter and unforgiving, lashing out at everybody whose ‘fault’ it is. Entitlement thy name is SLAB. ‘Fairness, equality and justice’…this fraud wouldnae recognise any of those words if they were on her plate in the jungle.

  60. victorialand says:

    Kezia preparing to jump ship and “come out” for independence?

  61. CameronB Brodie says:

    What a dafty. This is why ethics were invented, to act as a guide to moral conduct.

    Individualism, Collectivism, and Opportunism:
    A Cultural Perspective on Transaction Cost Economics

    Opportunism: Propensity and Behavior

    The most influential (and most frequently critiqued) version of the assumption of opportunism was put forth by
    Williamson (1985: 47–48):

    By opportunism I mean self-interest seeking with guile. This includes but is scarcely limited to more blatant forms, such as lying, stealing, and cheating. Opportunism often involves subtle forms of deceit … More generally, opportunism refers to the incomplete or distorted disclosure of information, especially to calculated efforts to mislead, distort, disguise, obfuscate, or otherwise confuse. It is responsible for real or contrived conditions of information asymmetry, which complicate problems of economic organization.

    Although the above definition clearly refers to opportunism in behavioral terms, opportunistic behavior is assumed to be ultimately caused by the nexus of a given human nature
    of self-interest with certain situational or structural conditions (Williamson, 1985). At issue with this assumption are two questions: (1) To what extent are human beings predisposed to act opportunistically, namely, seeking self-interest with guile at the expense of others? (2) If there is such an opportunistic propensity, is it the primary determinant of opportunistic behavior?

    Conceptualisation and articulation of justice: Justice in social theory

    Justice, legitimacy and (normative) authority for political realists

  62. ScottishPsyche says:


    Not while the DR is keeping her afloat. She is the Yoon press’s plaything in Holyrood, Good Ole Kez, good for some gossip and spin.

    Never felt she was anywhere near to changing her mind about Indy and don’t know that it would be that helpful. She can vote for whatever she wants but can you trust her?

  63. Artyhetty says:

    Can’t quite get how she is still a Labour MSP. Is it normal to totally slag the party you are paid really quite highly to represent, yet slag them to the hilt in the media? Hmm.

    She’s on a loser here, wasting everyone’s time and money, she has a bee in her bonnet, right wing media compliant helping her prolong the whole thing to try to twist it to her advantage.

    The law will decide on the case against her, not the Daily Rancid.

  64. Bryan Weir says:

    “I’m a celebrity! Get me out of this!”

  65. Petra says:

    @ Muscleguy says at 7:09 pm …. ”and secondly her lawyers saw her coming and are milking it in the interests of their bank balances……. If the perceived risk of bankruptcy is not enough for her to seek a settlement it is clear she never will. Expect any libel win to be appealed endlessly.”

    I can see a crowdfunder looming, Muscleguy.


    As far as I can make out KD isn’t a columnist for the Daily Rag anymore, so we can rule out ”normal practice.” What next Mr Clegg, next excuse, and where is the money coming from?

    Cosy wee talks around the table, right enough. Daily Record lawyers and Labour Party officials? Commonly known as ”normal practice.” And what about giving us the names of the Labour Party officials who were involved? Be as ”open” as you were with the Alex Salmond case.


    ‘Daily Record to pay Dugdale’s fees in legal battle with Wings Over Scotland.’

    ”On Twitter, The Record’s deputy editor David Clegg said the paper had initially, as per normal practice, “wanted to provide legal support to our columnist”. He added: “However, in a meeting between our lawyers and Labour Party officials it was made clear they wanted to deal with it themselves and did not want our help. Labour took on agency for the case and assembled their own lawyers to discharge the case. The Record was told to step aside. He then confirmed that the paper had “now reinstated legal support”.

  66. Dr Jim says:


    That’s maybe not as daft as it seems, are there others in the branch office who side with Kezia on her dislike of Corbyn and his acolytes, although they’d need to keep it quiet or Neil Findlay’ll beat them up, I believe he’s the *enforcer* in the branch office, if you don’t do as you’re told yer pigeon gets it

  67. Rock says:

    I sincerely hope that I am proven wrong:

    Rock (19th May 2017 – “Becoming the squirrel”):

    “I would love Dugdale to be humiliated in a court.

    But the Scottish justice system is rotten to the core and the vast majority of lawyers, especially judges, are the lowest of the low.

    Carmichael libeled Nicola Sturgeon before the last Westminster election and got away with it.”

  68. Gerry says:

    @ ScottishPsyche 20:49

    A while ago I would have put the farm on that.

    Now, not so sure. Never say mever.

  69. Gerry says:

    “Never say never” ! I mean lol

    Don’t ever say mever either, or type it. You’ll only end up looking daft. Like me.

  70. Rock says:

    The more gullible independence supporters were happy that Dugdale might move to Yes:

    Robert J. Sutherland (20th February – “Foote replaced by Dick”):

    “Would you rather mope, fruitlessly stuck in righteous indignation at past misdemeanours, or see an additional ally come over?”

    Rock (20th February – “Foote replaced by Dick”):

    “Would you want to stand shoulder to shoulder with proven liars like Dugdale and Foote?

    They can vote Yes if they want, but I would not want them anywhere near the Yes campaign.

    They have no shame, no credibility and no honour, whichever side they might opportunistically side with.

    Last time, the official Yes campaign distanced itself from the genuinely pro-independence WOS for using some strong language to expose a lying Tory scum.

    Would you want WOS to be distanced from while the likes of Dugdale and Foote form part of a Yes campaign?”

  71. robertknight says:

    Wouldn’t surprise me if there were elements within SLabour who have held a grudge since she stepped in to Bru-Crate Jim’s shoes, performed well below expectations as Leader, then put the icing on the cake by having a partner from the ‘other side’.

    You know how these old skool SLabour types operate – a fair few likely relishing her predicament…

    She takes a kicking and they get to scream “nasty cyber nats persecuting our poor Kez”.

    Double prizes!

  72. Rock says:

    What is the latest about the disgraceful SNP Tractor MSP in bed with Dugdale?

    Has she still not had the shame to resign?

  73. Capella says:

    The Daily Record are the Unionists Champion. David Clegg no doubt hopes to spike the guns of WoS, and Kezia is the willing dupe who will spin out the case for months to come.

    Funded by Westminster, with the Daily Record and the BBC on PR, these politicians have some nerve representing themselves as victims. Not only did she smear WoS in Parliament, protected by privilege, she also demanded that Nicola Sturgeon forbid her MSPs to read WoS. That’s a gross interference in the freedom of a private individual (Stu) to express opinion publicly. If Stu needs more funding to pursue his case then we are ready to provide it.

    Meantime, while on the subject of fundraising – the Dateline 2018 guys need a boost. Only two days left to raise their target:

  74. Marker Post says:

    In the “Equality” column, you forgot to add on her stipend from the Daily Record for her column (now, sadly, defunct).

    Every time she appeals, it adds legal costs (on both sides, as I am sure Stu is very well aware). The thing is that, up until now, she’s been playing poker with other people’s money. Wonder if this will cause her to fold?

  75. ScottishPsyche says:

    Anyone can change their mind regarding their vote for Indy – and the more the merrier – but I’m not sure that Dugdale is ready for turning yet. She is pro-EU no doubt but whenever she gives anyone any doubt re Indy and it is picked up on, she immediately doubles down on her Yoon credentials.

    The DR has gone more Yoon now than at any time, maybe Foote was a moderating voice despite the Vow. She seems really tight with Clegg and of course, Roden. I have wondered what they see in her as she really is a very unremarkable politician but with the loss of all their Westminster pals, they really need someone to give them the dirt. Maybe that is what the relationship is about? I don’t think she seems trustworthy and if I were SNP I’d be wary of saying too much around her.

  76. yesindyref2 says:

    Rock (33rd Janember 1826) “likes Dugdale vote shame sincerely rotten SNP lowest”

    Mmm, that’s easy for you to say.

  77. jfngw says:

    Why would we want Kezia Dugdale to jump ship to the SNP, it would not really be for belief in independence would it. Someone jumping ship because they had been slighted by a particular party doesn’t look like a positive or reliable catch.

    I would suspect her career is possibly over with Labour, unlikely to win a seat so needs to stay on the list, hmmm, doesn’t look too positive from where I’m viewing it.

    Also boxed into a corner, if she cedes the case now those Labour fund donators are going to ask questions about why the £90k was spent in the first place.

  78. Eppy says:


    Today our wee town was decorated with quite a lot of bunting, much of it with a faded red white and blue union flag motif. Parked in the square was a van from Visa celebrating the “Great British High Street”.

    I do more than most to support our local High street, always buying everything as locally as possible, so despite the flags I went to see what the van was about.

    Inside was a map of the British Isles, with the locations of various towns marked on it with big sticker like markers which were printed on to it. Firstly I noticed that Shetland was missing, despite there being plenty of room on their map for it. When I asked about this I was told that they were in Kirkwall on Monday but that they didn’t go any further than that, so there was no need to include Shetland!

    I looked for other Scottish towns and saw one just to the east of Edinburgh, probably Haddington, I guessed. But Haddington wasn’t on the list. The was actually meant to be Newport-on-Tay.

    Ayr was in more or less the correct place but Prestwick had been shunted towards Largs and as a result Glasgow has moved out past Coatbridge.

    Lastly, I asked why there were several towns shown in Northern Ireland on their map of the Great British High Street, and was reassured that Northern Ireland was in Britain. Good luck to them going there and telling them that.

    If this shows the level of understanding of the geography of the United Kingdom by a major company then I only hope that their financial systems are a bit better.

  79. ScottishPsyche says:

    Roden of course coming from the Daily Mail which is even worse.

  80. Bob Mack says:

    Right. Own up. Who let the Rocky rooster out of his hutch again ? . Cluck cluck cluck.

  81. galamcennalath says:

    OT Scanning the news for Brexit stories.

    – best of a bad bunch Norway, there but being ignored
    – Labour’s tests for their brand of cherry cake
    – May’s Chequers which no one will accept
    – Boris’s Canada+ which faction of Tories will vote against
    – the mad right’s No Deal treated as an option

    Real hurdles …
    1 Tory government acceptance
    2 EU acceptance
    3 WM majority acceptance

    At this moment in time nothing which is flying around would pass all three!

  82. Gerry says:


    For the blow that it would strike to the unionist camp.
    For the publicity that it would bring, and most of all, for the hope that it might represent a turning point within Slabour that may be the most major hole in the dam through which the trickle to indy would become a torrent.

    Hell hath no fury as a Dugdale scorned. And as has been alluded to above. SHE HAS THE DIRT ON THEM.

  83. Golfnut says:

    She isn’t paid by the Labour Party, she’s paid by us, as are her expenses, staff, researchers, office and travel, even accommodation. MP’s and MSP’s are supposed primarily to represent their constituents, the party system is a Constitutional corruption. If she was a non list MSP she could resign her Party membership and continue as an Independent MSP, not sure that would apply as a list MSP.

  84. galamcennalath says:

    jfngw says:

    Why would we want Kezia Dugdale to jump ship to the SNP

    We should be magnanimous and welcome anyone to the Yes side, HOWEVER …

    Kezia best helps the Indy cause by staying within the BritNats and causing chaos, infighting, and division 🙂

  85. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Just put up Twitter poll, approx 5 mins ago, already 71 votes, 61% saying Yes to the following:

    ‘If you are an independence supporter, would you welcome Kezia Dugdale applying for membership of the SNP?’

  86. CameronB Brodie says:

    This is a tad embarrassing.

    Critical Thinking, Moral Integrity and Citizenship


    Many are tempted to separate affective and moral dimensions of learning from cognitive dimensions. They argue that the cognitive and affective are obviously separate since many intelligent, well-educated people lack moral insight or sensitivity and many less intelligent, poorly educated, or uneducated people are morally good. By distinguishing “strong” and “weak” senses of the terms ‘critical thinking’, ‘moral integrity’, and ‘citizenship’ Richard Paul suggests a novel answer to this objection.

    Critical thinking, understood as skills alone separate from values, is often used to rationalize prejudice and vested interest. Moral integrity and responsible citizenship, understood merely as “good heartedness”, are themselves susceptible to manipulation by propaganda. The human mind, whatever its conscious good will, is subject to powerful, self-deceptive, unconscious egocentricity of mind. The full development of each characteristic — critical thought, moral integrity, and responsible citizenship — in its strong sense requires and develops the others, in a parallel strong sense. The three are developed together only in an atmosphere, which encourages the intellectual virtues: intellectual courage, intellectual empathy, intellectual good faith or integrity, intellectual perseverance, intellectual fair-mindedness, and faith in reason. The intellectual virtues themselves are interdependent.

    Your Biases And Beliefs Are Impacting Your Decision-Making
    Neuroscience helps to better understand people and the decisions they make.

    Five personality dimensions and their influence on information behaviour

  87. Welsh Sion says:

    Anagram Corner:

    Kezia Dugdale = A dud gal, i.e. Kez.

  88. yesindyref2 says:

    I don’t actually understand her. She’s in the wrong, she made an accusation about a tweet being homophobic, it isn’t, the Rev isn’t, she’s in the wrong, apologise, move on. There’s an SNP MP or two have done that, Cherry comes to mind.

  89. jfngw says:


    I’m not talking about changing to the Yes side, I’m quite happy if she votes Yes, it’s jumping ship to the SNP I’m dubious about. It would create headlines but no guarantee they would be good headlines, does anyone really believe the unionist press would then treat her with kid gloves, they would destroy her.

    I’ve no real empathy for her on this and other stances she has taken, but I’ve no desire to see someone possibly totally destroyed to achieve independence. As things stand I believe she has no real political future anyway.

  90. Achnababan says:

    I am not a celebrity but please get me out of this

  91. Macart says:


    I don’t think Ms Dugdale can apologise. Given the nature of the bodies involved? A tough climb down and I’m not thinking Ms Dugdale.

    This though is a legally active procedure, so I’m thinking folks should keep their speculation on the down low. 😉

  92. Collie says:

    Re: Edinburgh March.

    Looking for some information about transport from Glasgow.

    Does anyone know if there are any YES buses organised for next week running from Glasgow to Edinburgh and back again?

    Any information would be very much appreciated.


  93. Ian Brotherhood says:

    The poll I mentioned earlier has now had almost 850 votes and appears to have settled – 67% of indy supporters would welcome Kezia applying for SNP membership.

    The comments are about as polarised as you could imagine – some folk are saying they would leave the SNP if she’s accepted. Others are happy for her to become a ‘Yesser’ but don’t want her anywhere near the SNP. But the majority of comments seem to be broader-stroke i.e. we have to be welcoming to all converts, no matter who they are or what their history is etc etc…

    (FWIW I don’t have any strong feelings about it either way…just interested to see what folk are thinking.)

  94. yesindyref2 says:

    Same. I think a decent person that shouldn’t be in politics.

  95. Hector says:

    Why on earth would any supporter of independence condone Kezia Dugdale’s views on anything far less her comments critical of Stewart Campbell’s made both in the Daily Record and ….astoundingly in the Scottish Parliament? Even more astoundingly, let’s remember, in support of Stu’s comment about the son of The Secretary of State (For the Wasteminster) Government in Scotland. Ms Dugdale may have achieved a degree in law (was it Scottish Law?), she certainly achieved a position as Lederene of The “Scittish” Labour Party in Scotland….but she never secured a level of respect, admiration or affection in the hearts of the Scottish people either before, during or after the Independence Referendum.

    She spectacularly advocated that Scottish Labour voters cast a vote for the Tories in a General Election and stood by while the Smith Commission reneged on every promise made following The Vow in 2014 and the assurances offered by Gordon Brown if Scotland voted No. Kezia Dugdale whined today on Radio Scotland about how she couldn’t trust the word of the Labour Party who had let her down in her action against Wings Over Scotland. Well Kezia, welcome to the world of Scotland’s ex-Labour voters…the franchise who have deserted the Labour Party in Scotland in no large part due to the false promises you made as Leader of the Scottish branch. Your false promises and lies almost caused us to lose a country ….our country and our children’s future….Pay up or shut up.

  96. Hamish100 says:

    It’s a bit creepy of Rock trawling through old WoS comments. Who has the time to do that? Whose paying? The vow loving Record?

    We know Rock doesn’t believe in the National. Rock the pretend journalist.

  97. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    yesindyref2 @ 21:43,

    No, me neither.

    My guess is that the DR will take her as far as the upcoming appeal, and if that fails, the show’s over.

    The whole name of the game was to wave a big wad to bully the wee guy into standing down. What NorthBritLab and its media pals misunderstood – still being in a profound state of denial – is that Stu had a whole army of supporters just ready and waiting on the other side of the hill.

    “Oops, there’s more than one of them”.

    This sorry episode may turn out to be a wee milestone on the road to an fair upset in the media world – and hopefully on the road to freedom and better politics as well.

    Oh, and for those of you who can only see Kez’s presumed personal failings in this (ignoring the dysfunctional machine which was once behind her), how much worse might Rude Gal’s be? Only she has been a little more canny and a lot more heavily protected.

  98. Kevin says:

    Ian Brotherhood;

    I had an error of judgement and I’ve so changed my mind. In a moment of relaxed benevolence, I felt a Kezia Dugdale shift to our side would work for us.
    I wish now to change my vote from Yes to No.

    That is one catastrophe of a woman, her name mud in Scottish political circles. And regardless of the fact that seeking to be independent isn’t a political wish, she’d nonetheless be a hindrance and a liability to the independence movement.

    She’s A Calamity – Get Her Out Of Here!

  99. yesindyref2 says:

    OT – defence
    First F35-B landings on the QE carrier were on Tuesday, two of them, RN pilots. And take off. I think they were planned “by the end of the year”, so well earlier than planned. But also a USMC F35-B crashed in the US, pilot ejected seems to be OK.

    Seems to be a lot of speculation all over the place though. The days of social media I guess. Trial by tweet.

  100. ScottishPsyche says:

    Dugdale has damaged her party and her own credibility. I think she will write a book soon and is garnering anecdotes and keeping her profile high for when her political career ends. She has only ever been popular with the Blairite remnants of SLab and her chums in the Scottish Press. They don’t protect her in the UK press the same way they do with Ruth Davidson as she has no value for them.

    I wish she would leave politics as she is a wearisome lightweight who constantly creates drama in her personal and professional life.

    I think the SNP would honestly be mad to take her on with all that baggage.

  101. Macart says:


    True enough Dads. I’m a born worrier for folks. 🙂

  102. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Hamish100 @ 22:38,

    Yes, know what you mean. Creepy indeed. And getting worse, if anything. Tonight’s “tractor” attack on Kez’s partner is something else again. Disturbing.

    On the bright side, it seems I’ve finally made it into his (roomy) hall of WoS infamy. Huh. I suppose I should be secretly pleased. But I ain’t biting.

    Monolithic man is no asset whatever to indy, which is suppose is the whole idea anyway. You can’t be that persistent in the face of such general disapproval without a definite purpose. (Or a significant psychological problem. Or both.)

  103. Kangaroo says:

    Kezia jumping to SNP.

    “Now is NOT the time” needs to be a further option on that poll.

  104. Daisy Walker says:

    One of the biggest assets to the Indy movement is Wings Over Scotland.

    No-one can stop Kezia from changing her mind about Indy (if that’s what she is planning), but my god, in terms of credibility, she will have less than none.

    The SNP should not touch her with a barge pole.

    I used to think she was nice enough, but dim. Now I think she has little in the way of a moral compass, and her antics on IACGMOH make her look very greedy.

    However, can the British Establishment afford not to back her, it would not be a good look, and they have other numpties they need to keep sweet. Plus the longer they keep the funding going, the longer they keep this issue in play. It all mounts up.

    What a silly billy.

  105. ScottishPsyche says:

    Excellent piece form Eric Joyce via WoS Twitter.

    Look out for even more unnamed sources in the DR.

  106. yesindyref2 says:

    Ooops, an RN pilot followed by an RAF one, which would be right of course as both will fly off the QE. No insult intended in the slightest, well done both, and all the crew and support.

  107. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes, me too. In this case both Rev – and “Kez”.

  108. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    After universityand a degree Kezia applied for a job working for an SNP politician,didn’t get it and got a job with FFFFoulkes. I don’t believe she has any specific political attachment.

  109. Liz g says:

    Well … here’s a wee bit more speculation..
    Dugdale could be trying to to exactly what she did at the last general election.
    Or more likely her advisors are leading her to it, to damage Labour enough to help the Tories keep power.
    As was pointed out earlier… she was defending two Tories originally ( Ruth the mooth never stepped up.. then or now) and got some sort of agreement for funding.
    There is no need to push this case to the level she has… so why did she?
    Especially when they normally like to give Wings no publicity!
    Now the funding is pulled and she questions Labours honesty.
    A general election a possibility and Labour have a (so called) good conference!!!
    She then focuses on damaging Labour!!!
    Now since it was by her encouragement to keep the SNP out by voting Tory, that ensured Labour didn’t get power last time .
    Mibbi it’s the same agenda again…. obviously no her plan…. but collusion like this is no impossible?
    Because the one and only thing that Dugdale has been good for and has had some success at, is advancing the Tories in Scotland.

  110. Lochside says:

    ‘the poll I mentioned earlier has now had almost 850 votes and appears to have settled – 67% of indy supporters would welcome Kezia applying for SNP membership.’

    Well they must be fucking brain dead!…This absolute charlatan is creating major problems for the author of this site and diverting attention away from the real issues facing us. She is also colluding with some of the worst reptiles in our rancid media to further attempt to bring down Rev Stu.

    Add in her record of encouraging people to vote tory and calling N.S. a liar publicly for outing her support for another REF should be sufficient evidence that she has no scruples and should be consigned to obscurity where she belongs.

    I guess too many idiots are taken in by her faux ‘girly’ demeanour and voice. If she looked like a bulldog chewing a wasp…like Col Gadafty…maybe there wouldn’t be so many eejits wanting her in the SNP.

  111. Chick McGregor says:

    Deep breath, just had a panic attack there.

    Suddenly got this flash of Kezia announcing she is now SNP on the back of a deal cut with Nicola to denounce Wings.

    Only lasted a second, then I remembered Nicola has a good and functioning brain.


  112. Cactus says:

    Deep breath an we’re gaun deeper down babe like…

    Shout out Scotland Love.

  113. Collie says:

    Who gives a flying fuck about the English Navy or their planes???

  114. yesindyref2 says:

    Well Collie, it’s the Royal Navy, the navy of the UK which we’re currently still in and which we’re trying to get out of, though some seem more interested in talking about “English” this and “English” that, perhaps to try to sow division and anti-Englishness, and yes, some of us do give a flying fuck about it. Perhaps especially those from Scotland who serve in any of the forces but are Scottish and will vote YES.

    Is that OK with you? Because quite frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn.

  115. Liz g says:

    Collie @ 11.55
    We do Collie….. or at least we should..
    Come Indy we are due our share of defence assets!
    So it’s well worth keeping tabs on what we are due a share of,don’t ye think?
    The “How Will Scotland defend itself”is sure to come up in Indy Ref 2, and we should be able to say what we are expecting a share of.
    There’s also the massive spend on weapons that we get no real say in… but that’s more about the Neuks ….. also important to share information about…

  116. Collie says:

    Liz g

    I know all about asset sharing.

    The point I am making is that there are some on here drooling over how impressive the mighty English Navy is.

    With their two white elephant aircraft carriers.

    We are in times of poverty for millions and some halfwit on here is nearly coming in his pants st the site of a jet that we can’t afford landing on a carrier which we also can’t afford.

  117. Wullie B says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says:
    28 September, 2018 at 11:09 pm
    Hamish100 @ 22:38,

    Yes, know what you mean. Creepy indeed. And getting worse, if anything. Tonight’s “tractor” attack on Kez’s partner is something else again. Disturbing

    This is not the first time he has attacked KDs partner this week, the pebble is an asshole who seems to think his opinion is is important, well gravel, opinionipns are like arseholes, everyone has one and they are all equal but attacking Jenny Gillruth is almost as low as Aaronovitch attacking CraigMurrays wife on twitter yesterday. Rock is an arrogant arsehole who I think more and more is a Bella socialist rather tan a brit spook 77er

    As for Kez,do labour not remember the old adage “about a woman scorned” I can only see good things in the future about the souring of the Labour/Kez Dugdale relationship, hey Rev, offer her an olive branch deal if she can come up with verifiable/ admissible dirt on the msm/better together/liebore party shenanigans.

  118. Robert Peffers says:

    @Collie says: 28 September, 2018 at 11:55 pm:

    ” … Who gives a flying fuck about the English Navy or their planes???”

    You are right. There is only one use for aircraft carriers. To take a floating airfield far away from your own country to attack a distant enemy. They are thus offensive weapons to attack foreign countries. There is only one foreign kingdom on Earth that is a threat to Scotland and we do not need aircraft carriers to attack them.

    Nor do we need aircraft carriers to defend ourselves from them. We can reach them from every airfield in Scotland if we wanted to attack them but we don’t want to attack them – so we do not need bombers or missiles either.

    Scotland will need a defence force – not an attack force.

  119. yesindyref2 says:

    @Liz g
    Indeed. I guess there are three scenarios, one is a cash sum which seems unlikely, the UK has no cash (nor hope nor faith the way things are going). Second is money off any negotiated debt, with perhaps some bare starters. But third is a sensible split of assets.

    From that point of view the RN sold off Ocean to Brazil for £80 million or thereabouts, which puts a fairly low value on the T23s which are due replacement (stripped of some weapon systems etc to go on the T26 / T31), and there’s some talk of “some” being pensioned off early. I guess you could put a value on the basic T23 of even as low as £100 million each, for a half to three-quarters billion for 5 of them.

    QE and POW at £6.1 billion + maybe 24 F35-B at £100 million + each gives £8 billion, plus other specific stuff (waves hands), our share by value £700 million – covers the 5 frigates as a 10 year starter.

    The other thing is a somewhat wild speculation by me, that the day of the nuclear deterrent, the ICBM or SLBM may be coming to an end sooner than we think. From this point of view, QE and POW are already being described as a conventional deterrent, and with good reason. 2 to 3 full squadrons of F35-B, maybe on each if money was in time reallocated from Dreadnought, with escorts, would be able to strike an”enemy” in 10 years whoever they are, a very deadly blow – hence the deterrent effect of as people contemptuously dismiss it “force projection” which can be a deterrent as well as an aggressive force.

    Anyways, it’s a dirty job but someone has to do it!

  120. yesindyref2 says:

    I love you too, mwah


  121. Cactus says:

    Party People… doin’ it.

    The heading is… Balfron, Scotland, oor World.

    Potential energy continuation.

    Next Saturday remaining to go like SO like SO.

    Hey Liz g… take us thru the night me Lovely xx.

    Ah’ll be back…


  122. Robert Peffers says:

    @Liz g says: 29 September, 2018 at 12:18 am:

    ” … Come Indy we are due our share of defence assets!”

    Indeed so, Liz g – but aircraft carriers are strictly offensive weapons. They have no other purpose than to allow attack aircraft to operate far from their homeland. These floating airfields, in themselves, need a fleet of ships to protect them. They have no other purpose than enable attacks on far flung enemies.

    Here’s a wee example of how we don’t need aircraft carriers. In the Falkland war the biggest shock that the Argentines got was delivered by then fairly ancient old Vulcan bombers.

    “During the 1982 Falklands War, Operations Black Buck 1 to Black Buck 7 were a series of seven extremely long-range ground attack missions by Royal Air Force (RAF) Vulcan bombers of the RAF Waddington Wing.

    Comprising aircraft from Nos 44, 50 and 101 Squadrons against Argentine positions in the Falkland Islands, of which five missions completed attacks.

    The objectives of all missions were to attack Port Stanley Airport and its associated defences. The raids, at almost 6,600 nautical miles (12,200 km) and 16 hours for the return journey, were the longest-ranged bombing raids in history at that time.”

  123. Collie says:

    Exactly Robert Peffers.

    And I remember the statement Cameron made when these two pieces of junk were being built.

    He said these Carriers would be used to “Project British Power”

    Enough to make you boak.

  124. Dr Jim says:

    Folk hoping for attack forces in Scotland post Independence likely won’t be voting SNP then because I can tell you that’s not in THEIR plan, defence yes, military might no and it’s never come up at any conference that I’m aware of

    If you pose a threat you attract a threat and folk tend to like you more if you turn up with medicine doctors and bandages and don’t shoot people

    Scotland could and should take a different role in conflict

  125. sandy says:

    If that daily rag is paying her legal costs, would I be right in thinking the said rag would be banned or restricted on commenting on the case, their input being only the truth as stated in court, NO opinions.
    Contempt of court?

  126. Wullie B says:

    Aye Robert, theybwere some raids, think involving 9 refueling planes, and the bomb aiming was done using similar bombing computers as was used in WWII, clockwork things and although five missions out of seven were completed they did negligible damage, and also the claims of carriers being purely offensive in nature forget the humanitarian uses such vessels can provide during times of natural disasters where airfields cant be used, Carriers have been used to fly life saving equipment into places such asthe boxing day tsunami, or Haiti,to name but two and this is where our SNS Alec Salmond CV1 would be used primarily, but I would rather Scotland got its share of the cash value instead

  127. yesindyref2 says:

    @Dr Jim

    Scotland’s security will be guaranteed as a non-nuclear member of NATO, with Scotland contributing excellent conventional capabilities to the alliance

    Think about it, how on earth can you have “Scotland contributing excellent conventional capabilities to the alliance”

    WITHOUT “attack forces”?

    Here’s another, and there are more than this:

    one that sees us fulfilling both our international responsibilities

    for example allowing Scotland to take on a role in internationally sanctioned peace-keeping or peace-making operations

    make an effective contribution to regional defence in recognition of our important strategic position in the North Atlantic

    We will take our own decisions about involvement in military action, while continuing to make a full contribution to our own defence and that of our allies

    a tactical air transport squadron, including around six Hercules C130J aircraft, and a helicopter squadron” – what on earth would you want that for? Thinks …

    A second naval squadron to contribute to NATO and other operations outside home waters, incorporating the naval command platform, and a further two frigates with tanker and support ship capacity.

    Increasing the fast jet fleet of Typhoons potentially up to 16 aircraft which would enable Scotland to contribute to alliance operations overseas.

    All summed up by this, really:

    Following a Yes vote in 2014, the Scottish Government will notify NATO of our intention to join the alliance and will negotiate our transition from being a NATO member as part of the UK to becoming an independent member of the alliance.

    That’s the Scottish Government in 2013, which was the SNP.

  128. yesindyref2 says:

    @Wullie B
    A main use of HMS Ocean, and even HMS Illustrious (Phillipines), was in disaster relief.

  129. yesindyref2 says:

    Manged to find it, a very interesting paper from the Icelandic Institute, from Iceland as part of the GUIK gap which will become the GIS Gap, whose defence expenditure is not 2% of GDP, not even 1%, but around 0.12%.

    Scotland as an Independent Small State:
    Where would it seek shelter?

    Anyway, I’m zzzzing, night all.

  130. CameronB Brodie says:

    re. attack forces and floating airstrips. Isn’t aggressive war considered a war crime?

  131. yesindyref2 says:

    Only if they lose and don’t get to write “history”.

  132. CameronB Brodie says:

    That’s certainly the way it appears to be. Personally, I think questions such as this should be left until after we are self-determining. Remember, our media are largely status quo propagandists selling right-wing, populist, British nationalist, neocolonialist, mince. The world, though full of risk, is not as dangerous as some might suggest.

    Neither Russia nor Syria want to invade Scotland, I least I don’t think so.

  133. Cactus says:

    Normal is near, Scotland.

    Return to it.


  134. Cactus says:

    Fuckin’ Dee Dee says…

    Get oan that crane..

    Go Limmy!

    To Learn.


  135. yesindyref2 says:

    Defence wasn’t a problem in Indy Ref 1, very likely because the SNP switched to full NATO rather than Partners for Peace (voted at their 2012 Conference by 52% to 48%, a fierce and enjoyable debate I watched on TV).

    Defence is also unlikely to be an issue in Indy Ref 2, though people are more aware of the Russian “threat” and note I put it in inverted commas. What is a problem is if people (including an MP) show ignorance because though defence isn’t that important as long as it’s covered, it does discredit other things they might say if they go around saying it’s a dud carrier with no aircraft when most or at least many people will know that that’s nonsense. They’d be best just saying nothing – there’s no need to, most people don’t really care, but presume it’ll be taken care of.

    “Expensive white elephants” is probably quite acceptable as there are still and will be people on both sides of the border who think the same. I provide info as I follow defence, to try to avoid people making mistakes. Shrug, some don’t like it, well, there you go!

  136. Dr Jim says:

    Well here it is again more infantile pointless war machine dick measuring talk, I’m out

  137. yesindyref2 says:

    Well John Finnie and Jean Urquhart SNP list MSPs were out over the SNP infantile pointless war machine dick measuring talk by Angus Robertson and Kenny McAskill and the SNP 2012 autumn conference decision to end opposition to Scotland joining the nuclear-armed military alliance NATO, and one other later on who quit, so your problem is with your party, not me. I’m not a member, but I seem to be of similar mind to the 52% of the SNP that voted FOR the new and current SNP defence plan. Take it up at your conference, if you don’t like the SNP defence policy, and see if you can get it reversed back to the PfP policy that prevailed before.

  138. yesindyref2 says:

    For the sake of ACCURACY, I picked out this quote from the SNP (ScotGov) defence proposal without realising its significance, and it’s reasonably clear to me that what they meant by this:

    Defence capabilities at the point of independence
    Maritime forces
    One naval squadron to secure Scotland’s maritime interests and Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) and contribute to joint capability with partners in Scotland’s geographical neighbourhood, consisting of:
    two frigates from the Royal Navy’s current fleet
    a command platform for naval operations and development of specialist marine capabilities (from the Royal Navy’s current fleet, following adaptation)

    a command platform

    was HMS Bulwark, HMS Albion OR HMS Ocean, none of them more than a spitting distance from my 5 year later and up to date, LDA / LPH capable of taking F35-Bs.

    So far from thinking I was pushing the boat out, so to speak, I was actually just varying an existing SNP policy, and Angus Robertson, the likely architect, beat me to it in 2012 🙁

  139. Ghillie says:

    What strikes me is, that if the DR take up supporting Kezia Dugdale through court and she is allowed to continue kicking the can down the road with delaying tactics then, it gives the DR and rMSM umpteen opportunities in the run up to Indyref2 to print wild and defamatory headlines about THE Indy information hub.

    Kezia has, I think, burnt her boats with Labour and provided some juicy antiCorbyn soundbites and headlines to boot…

    I’m guessing her only option now is to declare herself an independent MSP.

    Who wins for now? Well I bet Ruth’s silly grin just got a whole lot wider.

  140. manandboy says:

    Is there even a scrap of evidence that K. Dugdale has intimated that she is thinking of jumping ship to the SNP. No, there isn’t actually. The poll has proved to be a source of pointless dispute about a baseless idea.

    For some, inclusivity has become a doctrine of political correctness.

    Can anyone imagine Winston Churchill inviting Adolf Hitler to join the Conservative party on the principle of inclusivity for all? Naw, ah didnae think so.

  141. starlaw says:

    Yesterday Kezia stated that she would not be leaving Labour , that she feels Labour party is where she wants to be . . . good luck with that one Kezia.

  142. Collie says:

    As has already been said,,,,

    Who gives a flying fuck about the English Navy or their very expensive faulty jumpy jets.

  143. Robert Louis says:

    So, yet again we have somebody from Labour (Kezia) getting cheered by the frankly odious and talentless Mundell.

    Over and over again, the Tories and Labour in Scotland working together. Now we literally have the Tories lapdog in Scotland (Mundell) cheering on the Daily record and Kezia.

    Labour instead of fighting poverty or inequality are running around chasing their tails over this nonsense court case. And, as others have pointed out, this gives the media free reign to bash both the indy movement and Labour at will.

    Labour in Scotland, eh? seriously, what a bunch of Tory suck-up wasters.

  144. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Robert Louis at 8.48

    “Collaborators” in fact

  145. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Robert Louis at 8.48

    “Collaborators” in fact.

  146. Fred says:

    Anent Kezia joining the SNP, she wouldn’t be content being a spear-carrier & would require a prima-donna role. That aint gonna happen!

  147. Wullie B says:

    @yesindyref2 I am the same, pretty much due to my time in the infantry, there was a meme the other day about theusual Donaldson crap using a picture of theQueens Own Cameron Highlanders in kilt charging, got the usual wrong war, Scots didnt wear kilts during WWII but as P pointed out the the idiocy of Smash the SNP on the shared post, a yoon using a picture of a menber o the 51st HIghland Division charging a position at St Valery in May 1940, a regiment that was thrown to the wolves by an English government so that Home county and French regiments could get off the beach at Dunkirk. Only 79 men of the 1st Bn, 79th Regiment of foot were evacuated from France, the rest including the 4th Bn were interrwd for the rest of the war by the Germans, and Scots soldiers were quite proficientat harrying German forces with the amount of escape attempts the tried. Over 10k men were sacrificed, men of Scottiah regiments so that Churchill could save his own, the w? that he was. Many old veterans never forgot that and were pro Scottiah independence and have been hearing that a lot of present serving soldiers are well into the indy camp now as well

  148. Craig P says:

    I feel this quote of Napoleon’s about the rotten, teetering monarchy of France is appropriate for Kezia’s current situation.

    True character stands the test of emergencies. Do not be mistaken, it is weakness from which the awakening is rude.

  149. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’m pretty sure I’ve already mentioned social marginalisation should be viewed as a process, not an event (see Brexit, for example).

    The Normative Theory of Social Exclusion:
    Perspectives from Political Philosophy

    Abstract: Reducing social exclusion as an aim of policy is a laudable political goal, but the definition of, and normative justification of policies reducing, social exclusion are unclear. This paper first defines social exclusion as used by academics and policy makers. The paper then uses the capability approach to define social exclusion. It then takes various elements of the definition of social exclusion, particularly concerns with respecting choice, human welfare, and concerns with fairness in society, and relates them to contemporary concerns in political philosophy. In so doing, the paper both helps to refine the idea of social exclusion, and also points to theoretical tensions in that idea. It concludes by linking concern with social exclusion to more recent theories of social or relational equality.

    Social Inclusion and Exclusion: A Review

    Social exclusion and social capital: A comparison
    and critique

  150. CameronB Brodie says:

    It’s not as if we don’t understand the social cost of marginalising voices, Tories simply tend to adopt radical, anti-scientific positions. For example, Tories believe in trickle-down economics, ffs. Remember, pluralism of thought and action are considered essential factors of a sustainable approach to living.

    P.S. Tories are not Conservatives.

    Marginalization revisited: critical, postmodern, and liberation perspectives.


    Marginalization was advocated by Hall, Stevens, and Meleis in 1994 as a guiding concept for valuing diversity in knowledge development. Properties, risks, and resilience associated with the concept were detailed. This conceptualization of marginalization is reexamined here for its sociopolitical usefulness to nursing, from (1) critical theory, (2) postmodern, and (3) liberation philosophy perspectives. Additional properties are proposed to update the original conceptualization. These include: exteriority, Eurocentrism, constraint, economics, seduction, testimony, and hope. Effects of Eurocentric capitalism on all marginalized people are explored. Nursing implications include the need for interdisciplinary dialogue about the ethics of promoting and exporting Eurocentrism in nursing education and practice, and the need for integrated economic analyses of all aspects of life and health.

    Social Exclusion and Inequalities in the United Kingdom

    Annotated Bibliography on Social Exclusion, Adverse Incorporation and Chronic Poverty

  151. CameronB Brodie says:

    pluralism of thought and action pluralism of thought and practice.

    I look forward to the day when Scots can truly support the principle of universal human rights, by practicing being a normal member of the global family of nations. Political soveriegnty for Scotland would provide a platform for an approach to government that deals with human rights, in a manner that is consistent with international law. Social justice is unobtainable without a respect for the rule of law.

  152. yesindyref2 says:

    @ Collie says: 29 September, 2018 at 8:19 am

    As has already been said,,,,

    Who gives a flying fuck about the English Navy or their very expensive faulty jumpy jets.

    It was you said that Collie, Terry and Danny aren’t here to say it.

  153. Colin Alexander says:

    @ Stu Campbell, how about this one that I’ve learned about:

    A Scottish public authority accused of serious human rights abuses. The Pursuer gets advice and assistance legal aid and lodges an Initial Writ against the Defender.

    Then Scottish Legal Aid refuse Court legal aid. So, the Pursuer is now trapped into an Ordinary Cause court case with no solicitor and faces bankruptcy if they lose. The Pursuer has no legal knowledge and does not have the capability to handle a court case as a litigant in person.

    SLAB say there is a lack of supporting evidence for the pleadings in the Writ.
    However, the Pursuer is unable to recover evidence from the Defender without a court order.

    But the Defender is withholding potential evidence by not complying with Subject Access Requests under the Data Protection Act, even instructing other another Scottish public body to redact potential evidence which the Pursuer is lawfully entitled to, which the other public body then redacts as requested despite being told by their own solicitor that it’s the Pursuer’s personal data that the Pursuer is entitled to.

    The Pursuer is now in a vicious circle: to get evidence the Pursuer needs a solicitor. To get a legal aid solicitor the Pursuer needs evidence which they can’t get without a solicitor.

    In contrast the Scottish public authority, by the public purse, is able to hire one of the top litigation lawyers in Scotland to defend itself against the allegations of abuses, despite already having a team of solicitors as part of its in-house legal department.

    How’s that for equality of justice?

  154. Rock says:

    Wullie B says:
    29 September, 2018 at 12:42 am

    “hey Rev, offer her an olive branch deal if she can come up with verifiable/ admissible dirt on the msm/better together/liebore party shenanigans.”

    Reading comments like this makes me even more certain that the most stupid people on earth are in Scotland.

    The scum has had Labour spend £100,000 on her, money which could have been better spent for the welfare of the poorest in Scotland.

    Now she is attacking Labour, in attempt to prevent Corbyn from defeating the Tories.

    And the clueless pompous armchair pundits posting here are talking of offering her an olive branch, of welcoming her to the SNP and the Yes movement.

    No wonder Scotland is still a colony of England after 311 years and will remain one for another 622 at least.

  155. Wullie B says:

    How about you quote the whole thing ya arse, forgot about the Woman Scorned bit but hey, at least its a change from attacking the SNP, mind you am sure a labourite like yourself cant help attacking someone as dangerous to your party as Kez is Rock, you are a true fud, f@#king unionist dick, is Bella to quiet the night or something. You are a prize clown and everyone here can see it.
    For one how could her spending labour party money help the poorest in society, they arent in power and never were when she had the helm, your colours are finally showing through with hatred at someone who could do irreparable damage to the red torys and the attacks you have made on her partner this week could be making sense, have you had prior knowledge of the tap being closed to her defence fund?

    Just because some have mentioned her joining the SNP doesnt mean she would ever be in a place to represent them politically, and we have had Tory councillors joining, Mike Dailly who fought for Better Together has now joined, can you see where this is leading pebble?

    The only party who has anything to lose is Labour if Kez were ever to jump the fence, personally I cant see it but I can see her changing her support on independence and every vote counts when that referendum is finally called.

    The only place I have ever seen attacks on folk joining the yes movement is from the far left socialists who supported RISE on Bellacaledonia, and thae sewing of dissent in the yes movement always seems to stem from those same folk regarding Nicola Sturgeon and the claims she is never going to pull the trigger, seems to remind me of someone I have seen posting on this site more and more

  156. ScotsCanuck says:

    … ain’t Karma a “female dog” …. I’m no pushin’ ma luck !!

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