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Interesting Times

Posted on November 30, 2015 by

From tonight’s Evening Times:

kdgl

We’re not aware of a single elected Scottish Labour official previously expressing unequivocal public support for independence. Is this a small, self-interested one-off, or just the first cracking of the dam? We can only wait and see.

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    1. 30 11 15 17:39

      Interesting times | Politics Scotland | Scoop.it

    114 to “Interesting Times”

    1. theMadMurph says:

      I can’t wait for the flood!

    2. drekken11 says:

      Pretty sure i remember a female labour councillor backing indy, in clydebank or possibly renfrewshire. Cant remember her name tho. She may have left the party in campaign for a YES vote

    3. Andrew McLean says:

      There will be choirs of angels singing in heaven tonight.

      A sinner repents his heresy!

      or someone hopes to retain their job come the spring?

    4. broonpot says:

      If they all pull their finger out it will happen

    5. Actually Rev, one did BEFORE the Indy ref – my fellow Councillor here in Inverclyde, Councillor Vaughan Jones.
      She was bullied out of the Labour Party for her sins and is now an independent.

    6. tartanarse says:

      The big boys made me do it.

      Can I still keep my job. Not even subtle. Every last one of them deserves unemployment.

    7. heedtracker says:

      Great news! Its the only way to shake off tory reign for good.

    8. Doug says:

      It is wonderful to see. Barry Jarvis in Moray did similar last year pre referendum. He resigned his seat and went Green, however.

    9. Inverclyder says:

      Wouldn’t it be more like a crack in the sewer pipe before the shit hits the fan!

      What will be uncovered when Labour are finally ejected from the councils across Scotland?

    10. schrodingers cat says:

      when labour get humped in may’s holyrood election…..lots of labour councillors, at the thought of losing their sinecures, will be revolting

    11. handclapping says:

      Poor old Kez. Not only the question of what is the UK Labour Party but also is there a Scottish Labour Party as well as Labour in Scotland Branch Office.

      Has she bitten off more than she can chew? What do wasps taste like?

      More popcorn please

    12. galamcennalath says:

      I have on occasion, in a flight of fancy, dreamt that Labour Scottish branch might opt for the future (theirs and their country’s) and switch to Indy supporting.

      We can all dream. Should that happen, I think we could call Indy a done deal because they would convert a lot of the remaining ~20% of voters.

      Do I think that is now about to happen? Nope. Opportunism and perhaps callous faux Indy support to get votes. The wellies can stay in the cupboard for now.

    13. Robert Louis says:

      I actually thought Labour would wake up to political reality after they lost the Scottish parliamentary election 2007. I also thought they might wake up in 2011, but they didn’t. This year, losing all bar one of their 41 MP’s should have done the trick, but no, it seems they have their heads firmly in the sand.

      Perhaps wipe out again in 2015, then at the councils in 2017 will make them wake up to political reality in Scotland. Then again, going by past behaviour, probably not.

      On a related matter, after today’s events, Corbyn is finished. The resignation will come over the Christmas/New year break.

    14. The Man in the Jar says:

      Scotland “hauds its breath” Not!

    15. ahundredthidiot says:

      Schrödinger’s cat

      That’s naughty, calling labour councillors revolting

      But (sigh) I have to agree

    16. Nation Libre says:

      I sincerely hope some of these guys are genuinely feeling enough is enough. The cynic in however thinks that this has been orchestrated by the party to try and hold onto something in Glasgow or for individuals to keep their snout in the trough.

      What might be uncovered if Glasgow falls to the SNP. Squeaky bum time me thinks

    17. Clootie says:

      …I wonder how many did vote for Independence.

      Perhaps one day Labour officials in Scotland will fight for the people instead of power.

    18. EMacmillan says:

      To give him (and any others that might emerge) their dues, I don’t think we should assume it’s just a careerist ploy. After all, people can change their minds, and I’m willing enough to presume good faith until proven otherwise.

    19. Dr Jim says:

      Nice to know the Labour party’s coming round
      Will it mean more votes for them?

      HELL NO !!!

    20. schrodingers cat says:

      reminds me of chris cairns toon of McLeish wearing a T shirt with…”don’t blame me…I was really sad having to vote No”

    21. Skooshcase says:

      And at Glasgow City Council the shredders hum into life once again…

    22. Sorry for the O/T,but Stewart Hosie in the HoC says that Cameron is going to address the nation on telly at 7.30.

    23. Yerkitbreeks says:

      The Herald also raised the spectre of self interest

    24. ahundredthidiot says:

      Robert Louis

      I think there is reason to be more optimistic about Scotland’s political future, past behaviour is a dead duck in my opinion, a dodo.

      I know a Tory voter who voted yes last year, agrees with those type of policies you see, not the wider principle of that Party. Used to call himself a 90 minute unionist. I am still puzzled that we lost.

    25. Dave says:

      ..the bottom line is…to ensure this is no con job, he needs to come out strongly ie show commitment verbally. His act-ions will show his true intentions.

    26. Angra Mainyu says:

      Robert Louis: “it seems they have their heads firmly in the sand.”

      Or in their accounts. Scottish Labour doesn’t generate enough money to finance its operations and depends on handouts from London.

      I don’t know why anyone is celebrating this, it will come to nothing.

      A lot of us like to assume there are a lot of Labour people who are sort of disaffected intellectuals who mean well but the reality is most of them are queen and country fruitcakes who are living in denial with regards to the death of The Rangers…

    27. Stoker says:

      Rev wrote:
      “We’re not aware of a single elected Scottish Labour official previously expressing unequivocal public support for independence.”

      That’s because there isn’t any. Who wrote the original piece in that rag? Or is that a secret also? I also note the old familiar use of “A spokesman said” and “One source” said.

      Just another load of bull from nameless sources designed to deceive the masses into believing in Slabber again.

      The seeds of deception are being well and truly planted.
      I smell shite, rancid reeking shite!

    28. Lesley-Anne says:

      Hmm .. are we actually sure there were any Labour councilors who voted YES or are we just being told this to try and keep some Labour, as yet un-named, councilors in their seats.

    29. Lollysmum says:

      This is the sort of thing everyone will find if the threatened tsunami does hit Labour councils. This from Falkirk:

      https://t.co/hSbD8Kp4uO

    30. The Isolator says:

      Aye,Skooshcase you bet.

      Headlines at the ready “Independence supporting Labour councillors at the pockle”

      FFS they are so predictable.

    31. jimnarlene says:

      Oh look, a squirrel!

    32. Author_Al says:

      Conspiracy Theory Number 67863543: It’s a Blairite plot to jump ship and infiltrate the SNP then when ‘converts’ have hundreds of seats to revert back to Labour…

    33. frogesque says:

      A SLAB source said, ‘. . . ‘

      That teaboy sure has a fair gub on him.

    34. heedtracker says:

      I used to vote SLabour, Anne Begg, then she campaigned with the nazi party of olde Aberdeen for No. I don’t know what happened to Slabour in Aberdeen after that.

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-best-of-friends/#more-61945

    35. Wulls says:

      The optimist in me is hoping the floodgates are opening.
      The cynic in me thinks survival instincts are kicking in.
      The realist in me thinks the cynic is closer to the truth.

    36. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Here’s the archived link for alexicon’s Herald link:-

      https://archive.is/mZigW

    37. Tam Jardine says:

      Much cynicism on Wings tonight.

      Councillor Robertson’s change of heart is to be welcomed.

      You could take the view that he has seen the writing on the wall and is simply adjusting to the mood of the people to save his job. However from the brief exert in the paper he seems genuinely pissed off with status quo.

      I am delighted he now supports independence and is reflecting the majority position of his constituents.

      Reading exerts from his statement it strikes me that if this was anyone other than a labour politician he would be welcomed with open arms. We need plenty more guys like Councillor Robertson stepping forward to achieve our goal.

      Would re branding the SNP as The Scottish National Party (incorporating Scottish Labour) work?

    38. Clydebuilt says:

      Independence is a Process ……………

      First they larf at you

      Then they fight you

      Then the Rats come out of the sewer

      Then you win

      ……. Make a good T shirt

    39. ahundredthidiot says:

      Funny Facebook post by Mr robertson

      Looks to me like someone had one too many glasses of rioja and had a blinding vision of light

    40. Bob Mack says:

      Sorry guys ,but I welcome anyone prepared to put their x in the YES box.

    41. One_Scot says:

      Stoker, good call.

    42. schrodingers cat says:

      Cameron is going to address the nation on telly at 7.30.

      blah blah blah clear and present danger blah blah blah

      blah blah blah Cameron trying to look like a leader and very statesmen like blah blah blah

      polly bag found on tube tomorrow, tube locked down, police everywhere

      wed. vote in hoc passed. job done

    43. Anagach says:


      Bob Mack says:
      I welcome anyone prepared to put their x in the YES box.

      And I would as well but I do not think extending the Glasgow Labour gravy train is a good idea.

      And there is an air of desperation, since this could have been done when it mattered.

    44. K1 says:

      If this is what he wrote I cannot take this guy seriously. Sounds like some hammed up version of what he thinks an independence supporter ‘should sound like’. Who actually talks like that?

      Sorry not convinced.

    45. Marco McGinty says:

      OT, I know, but Clare Balding just now on the One Show, talking utter shite about the Davis Cup win.

      All about James Ward winning the only match that wasn’t won by a Scottish player. Then going on about Andy Murray allegedly saying that he plays his best tennis when he plays for the British team.

      Well, he can’t play for a Scottish team in many competitions, if any, you imbecilic woman.

    46. schrodingers cat says:

      et blocked the rev after he posted on twitter this, on the day the et’s sister paper reports the rev is in the top 100 most powerful scots

      you couldn’t make this up….

      let labour councillors come out for yes, good for them

      the snp/greens and ssp are stuffed full of far more talented people than labour, we have, and will have no shortage of candidates.

      we should throw this guy a lifering to encourage other councillors to do the same. then drop them like hot potatos

    47. caledonia says:

      Is this good or bad though

      can see it on the doorsteps when someone says they are voting for the snp because they want indy with the reply being some of our labour party want indy as well so you can now vote for them as well…

    48. frogesque says:

      I think the SNP should welcome CLR Robertson and others. However, they start out as ordinary members, put the graft into the Branch and work their way up like anyone else.

      No cushy tickets for safe council seats or Holyrood list places based on ‘experience’.

    49. David McDowell says:

      O/T –

      First an attack on the integrity of people who crowdfund pro-indpendence projects, and now those same people are “under threat from outdated libel laws.”

      http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14110771.Scottish_new_media_website_under_threat_from_outdated_libel_laws/?ref=twtrec

      Those well-known “champions of free speech” – The Herald – are suddenly worried that alternative political voices are in danger of not being heard.

      Stop sniggering at the back!

      It’s got nothing at all to do, you understand, with the danger of Labour finishing behind the Tories at the Holyrood 2016 elections!

      We know from past experience that everything these lowlifes do is aimed at undermining democracy and free speech in Scotland.

      I suggest the hidden Unionist agenda is to try to strangle the fledging alternative media in Scotland at birth by using their usual favourite weapons – blocking their access to funding and issuing legal threats.

      This can only be because they are worried that pro-independence voices are winning the debate.

      I suggest the following:

      1. All pro-independence projects who raise cash via crowdfunding voluntarily publish their accounts – i.e. 100% transparency.

      2. A crowdfunder is launched to pay for a series of courses in Scottish defamation laws for citizen journalists, conducted by someone like Lallands Peat Worrier.

      3. The establishment of a joint legal fighting fund, also crowdfunded, to be accessed by any pro-independence project threatened with a defamation writ.

    50. caledonia says:

      Can see the trap
      vote labour we will give you indy

      DONT EVER TRUST ANY OF THEM

    51. schrodingers cat says:

      a veritable damascene conversion by mr roberston

      I wonder if he will go as far as opposing the bombing of the place

    52. Bob Mack says:

      Just to tell you guys here that having looked at Councillor Roberts picture ,I instantly recognised him. He worked as a nurse in Gartloch Hospital for Mental Health.

      The guy is as straight as a plumb line and very upfront.
      Funny how things come back into your sphere of life.

    53. K1 says:

      When you consider for a moment the significance of this ‘free vote’, that it allows the Blairites to vote with the Tories giving them the numbers. It’s exactly correct to say once again that Labour are taking us into another uncosted, non UN mandated and no doubt disastrous war.

      They could have prevented this. Cornyn is a total coward.

    54. Capella says:

      I would guess the Herald’s anxiety about Scottish defamation laws stem from the possibility of Natalie McGarry or Michelle Thomson suing the Herald for defamation.

    55. K1 says:

      I Hate kindles.

      Corbyn.

    56. Marco McGinty says:

      And on the same One Show programme, we have the impartial BBC making the case for strikes on Syria, followed by Frank Gardner spewing UK propaganda.

      He first mentions that those fighting for IS soldiers are removing their uniforms to blend in with the civilian population. Is he trying to tell us that the UK’s armed forces have never done such a thing?

      He then spouts the lie about our incredibly fabulous missiles that are so accurate, that they can take out a single person in a car without hurting any other person! No collateral damage whatsoever with UK missiles!

    57. HandandShrimp says:

      I am happy to hear of any politicians moving to Yes. In an independent Scotland we would still have political discourse and different parties. I don’t have to agree with all the Yes voters…although there is a surprising accord with the direction most Yes voters want to see Scotland take.

      On other news I see Kezia and Murray are both against bombing. I wonder how many rebels there actually are in the Labour ranks. It may just be a few Shadow Cabinet types.

      It will interesting to see who walks through the lobby with the Tories….again.

    58. Anagach says:


      caledonia says:

      Can see the trap – vote labour we will give you indy

      Just like their long held policy of removing the Lords…

    59. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi David McDowell.

      You didn’t need to post that Herald link – it was archived yesterday. You could have posted the archived link.

      https://archive.is/zC8Ks

      We don’t actually want to go the those SCUM/BUM/corpmedia sites to give them traffic statistics.

      Always use,
      http://archive.is

    60. starlaw says:

      Corbyn giving a free vote to his MPs is as good as conceding Britain to be run by two Tory parties

    61. yesindyref2 says:

      I don’t think Dugdale is as daft as people make out. She’s said the Labour party can make its own mind up, she’ll wait and see how many move over to Indy support – publicly – rather than just in the privacy of the ballot box, and then suitably amend official policy of the Labour party in Scotland.

      I expect.

    62. David McDowell says:

      Brian Doonthetoon at 7:37pm

      I could have posted an archived link, if I’d known how that works, which I don’t.

      And I’m sure I’m not alone in that.

      I don’t want to send anyone to the SCUM/BUM/corpmedia sites to give them traffic.

      But assuming everyone just “knows” what you know isn’t exactly helpful. How about a little detailed guidance?

    63. Tam Jardine says:

      David Mcdowall

      Just copy the website address onto the wee box on the archive website and press enter. It creates a copy page and you can then copy the new Web address created by copying and pasting it onto your comment. Voila

    64. caledonia says:

      will soon see if this is some sort of ploy
      If its burried away in the papers/bbc then it is a scam for labour to get more votes or maybe self interest on the council members part

    65. yesinsyref2 says:

      @Bob Mack
      There’s a lot of straight as a dye Labour members and officials, and I think the Indy Ref must have been a very difficult time for them. On the one hand loyalty to the party, a party they worked for and believed in all their lives, and on the other a prospect they might have found interesting, if given the free choice, something their very own party denied them. As a result Labour lost our heavily, almost terminally, and the only way the party will survive is to give them a free choice, as Dugdale seems to have done.

    66. Tamson says:

      Good on councillor Robertson for “coming out”.

      But what about those 4 Glasgow councillors who supposedly voted Yes, but remained in a party which sided with the Tories and campaign ed for No? How f***ing pathetic is that?

    67. @David McDowell

      Just pop the url in here and wait.

      http://archive.is

    68. David McDowell says:

      Tam at 8:17pm

      Thanks.

    69. Thepnr says:

      Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, everyone is entitled to change their mind. So far so good.

      An elected Labour Party official in Scotland however is a different kettle of fish. I know of many Labour Party members who quit their party on account of their leaderships role in the referendum.

      Some have joined other parties and some have stayed out of politics altogether. Remaining a member of Labour and claiming now that you support Independence is inconsistent with the campaigning against Independence prior to the referendum.

      Resignation on principle, that would be more realistic. Just how important is the fight for Independence to those chossing not to step down from Labour?

      Looks like a clear case of trying to hang on to the votes of those that are still Labour supporters but support Independence.

      Sticking a finger in a hole in a dyke won’t always stop the flood.

    70. Tam Jardine says:

      David McDowell

      Nae bother.

      Loads of these propagandists from the ‘Scottish’ press read this site and every time they see their web pages transmogrified into an archive link that renders the page revenue neutral for their corpsemedia masters… well, it’s what the Americans would call giving them ‘the bird’

      Brian is just suffering from archive fatigue from telling people to archive again and again. He’s lovely really.

    71. ArtyHetty says:

      Wow, sort of O/T.

      get over to twitter guys, Brian May says Corbyn doing the right thing opposing war etc, all well and good, but britnats whinging that he gave the SNP 10k or something, wow do they hate the SNP even though they are much more left than Labour, and anti austerity, as well as not into blowing up innocents to get a few engineeered nasties. We really need out of ukok, soon as poss, seriously.

    72. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Just pop the url in here and wait.”

      Don’t even have to do that. You can drag a button onto your browser toolbar, then all you have to do is click the button while you’re on the original page.

    73. Petra says:

      @ theMadMurph says at 5:33 pm ”I can’t wait for the flood!”

      Are some Labour politicians / Councillors totally scunnered now with the way things are going in relation to their Godforsaken party? The latest being the Labour party left carrying the can, not the Tories, with their party holding the deciding vote to bomb Syria. Cameron et al have managed to dupe them once again and they’ll no doubt be laughing their heads off all the way to the bank.

      If bombing goes ahead because of them I can see their supporters leaving in droves … the flood …. maybe pushing our vote over the hoped for 60%. Worse to come if Labour drags us into a Better Together World War.

      If Corbyn has any wits left at all he should get out of the Blairite Labour Party before he’s forced out. Take his MANY supporters with him, get the backing of Unions, form a new party and put the Blairites right in the sh*t.

    74. X_Sticks says:

      Good to see you’re all on the ball re @David McDowell and archive. Brian wasn’t having a go at you David. He just ain’t like that. We sometimes forget not everyone is a whizz at t’internet and it’s quirky bits 😀

      Good spot Lollysmum. The truth about the PFI fraud is coming home to roost. Problem is we’re all going to pay for it. Some of these contracts should be investigated and the findings published. Who signed them and who makes the money.

      As for Robertson I’m of the mind to accept him to the fold. If, as Bob says, he’s straight then good for him coming out. Just a pity he didn’t do it when we really needed it. I’m in no doubt he won’t be the last.

      As someone already said, maybe the first cracks in the dam appearing.

    75. Marcia says:

      I have always wondered how many Labour MSP’s in the privacy of the polling station voted Yes last year. I doubt they will make that public at the moment as they are going through their selections process.

    76. Luigi says:

      Given branch manager Kezia’s new, relaxed position on SLABBERS supporting independence, I have an important question for Jeremy Corbyn:

      If you are leader of the Labour Party when IndyRef 2 comes along, will you allow Labour party members, politicians and activists to freely campaign for a YES vote, should they feel inclined?

      As a matter of conscience, you understand.

    77. David McDowell says:

      X-Sticks at 8:54pm

      And I’m not having a go at Brian. I just ain’t like that.
      I just don’t see the point in offering advice without adding sufficient information to act upon it.

    78. Lollysmum says:

      If you think about it there must be a whole load of Labour people who perhaps now regret their No votes. They must take some stick in their local areas especially. Pretty difficult to change your mind publicly I expect.

      Maybe Cllr Robertson is testing the water & others are watching his reception. All it takes is one crack in the wall.

    79. Petra says:

      O/T

      @ Lollysmum says at 6:17 pm ”This is the sort of thing everyone will find if the threatened tsunami does hit Labour councils. This from Falkirk:”

      https://t.co/hSbD8Kp4uO

      Thanks for that Lollysmum. Front page … NOT … of the Daily Record, Mail et al tomorrow.

    80. David McDowell says:

      I agree with the policy of not sending traffic to the msm websites.
      I just couldn’t find where this website provides the detailed “how to advice” for using archived pages in your posts.
      Telling each new arrival one at a time is a tad on the inefficient side.

    81. Macart says:

      Time for another bag of choccy raisins.

    82. Lollysmum says:

      Petra
      Thats why I posted it here. More people will see it here than in any of the papers with their declining readerships lol 🙂

    83. cearc says:

      Marco McGinty,

      ‘fabulous missiles that are so accurate, that they can take out a single person in a car without hurting any other person!’

      And here’s the pictures to prove it!

      https://d262ilb51hltx0.cloudfront.net/max/800/1*jWaFU26Zl6tORDSMPF7avA.png

      As you can so clearly see, the kids in the back and any passerbys would have been just fine. Perhaps a tad a warm, if not positively toasty.

      100 grand each or 10 for 1M. (That’s the austerity version).

      I’m sure that if the price was mentioned every time they talk about them some people may change their minds.

      Even so, how come nobody in the media is asking what would this cost? How can we afford millions chucked at cars when we can’t (won’t) afford to feed and house our own population.

    84. Lollysmum says:

      Macart-you’re going to need a diet soon. Too many choccy raisins & popcorn is not good for the waistline.

    85. Petra says:

      O/T

      Forget about Daesh. Following in the footsteps of their Master, Blair, Dougie Alexander and Jim Murphy have been unleashed on the World.

      WeeGingerDug:

      ‘’It’s not entirely clear what expertise Wee Dougie has in reducing world poverty. You might think that if he’d been marginally more successful in reducing poverty in Paisley then he might have kept his job as an MP. But Dougie was more concerned with striding the world stage with very short legs and masterminding a disaster of a campaign for the Labour party ……..

      Likewise the BBC seem to believe that John McTernan is a political expert, which is true because he did after all mastermind the campaign that delivered the Labour party in Scotland its greatest defeat ever. That’s got to count for some sort of political expertise, even if only in reverse ……

      And Jim Murphy, who is capable of starting a fight in an empty building and then nursing a grudge about it for decades, has been appointed as a peace envoy in the Caucasus.

      https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2015/11/30/labour-still-hasnt-found-what-its-voting-for/

    86. Petra says:

      @ Lollysmum says at 9:26 pm ”Petra thats why I posted it here. More people will see it here than in any of the papers with their declining readerships lol.”

      And that’s why I reposted it .. ha, ha … twice as nice teamwork!

    87. Quinie frae Angus says:

      How sure can we be that Ian Murray is definitely voting AGAINST air strikes?

      According to this “insider’s” report of a an angry Shadow Cabinet meeting today, it would appear that he may have changed his mind!

      I bet in his heart of hearts he’s against them, but faced with the important and angry bigwigs of the Blairite tendency (i.e. his betters, down south) he has capitulated?

      Hope this link works! In the light of (ahem) advice on how to do links, above in the thread, I am conscious that somewhere in my mind I remember that someone said we are supposed to remove the “https” bit from the front of a link, so here goes….

      http://www.totalpolitics.com/blog/453136/corbyn-forced-to-back-down-on-syria-strikes-policy-in-and39angryand39-shadow-cabinet-meeting.thtml

    88. Lollysmum says:

      Quinie frae Angus

      You can’t be sure. Murray has form for saying he voted against a bill even when we know he abstained. He still denies it even after Hansard has been printed confirming his abstention. The man is a liar & that’s all you can say about him.

    89. Truth says:

      All it is, is a crude attempt to fool some yes voters back to the Labour fold.

      Do not fall for it people.

    90. cearc says:

      Quinie,

      Removing the https bit is just for youtube links.

    91. Quinie frae Angus says:

      @ Lollysmum

      You’re right – he is a liar. And clearly not bright enough to realise we can see this.

      @Cearc
      Oh, ta muchly! That’s now imprinted in ma heid for the future.

    92. Petra says:

      O/T

      This is the utterly, shambolic nightmare of a situation that members of the LABOUR party are going to vote for!

      Cameron reckons that he can use 70,000, on the ground, Syrian opposition fighters who don’t belong to extremist groups to fight Daesh!? The so-called NON-extremist groups that have in fact been fighting Assad.

      General Cameron’s orders ”turn yourselves around and fire your guns in that direction now.”

      How is this going to work when their new found brother-in-arms, Russia, is targeting said fighters?

      Now we have McCain, US Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman, saying that ”the United States should provide the so-called Syrian moderate opposition with Stinger portable surface-to-air missiles to defend themselves.”

      We can see where this is going! Why can’t members of the Labour Party? Or is their main aim on ousting Corbyn out and to hell, literally, with everyone else?

      http://sputniknews.com/us/20151020/1028835944/us-stingers-missiles-syrian-rebels-mccain.html

    93. Thepnr says:

      So your a Labour politician, an important vote is coming and you make it clear that the Labour Party view is not your view. So what to do? You tell your leader you will vote against a 3 line whip and resign rather than do something your principles will not allow you to do.

      This happened today, it did not happen on the referendum issue with any Scottish Labour elected officials as far as I am aware.
      They were never offered the choice, nor fought for it.

      I am dismayed when an elected representative would resign on the principle that he/she wants to go to war and the party must allow a “free vote”. Despite what the majority of their members believe.

      I wonder what those that will soon vote for war in Labour held seats members, activists and voters will think?

      Looks like the Red Tories in the Labour party in England and Wales are heading the same way of Slab in Scotland.

      Lemmings, rushing for the cliff.

    94. cearc says:

      Petra,

      Ah, that’ll be because it worked so well giving stingers to all and sundry in Afghanistan when the USSR were there.

      Although I do recall a small problem when they wanted them back and no returns were forthcoming. Then, was it 250k USD they offered for each one returned? Still only got an handful back.

    95. Auld Rock says:

      I’m minded of the Dambusters Motto – “Apres moi le Deluge”. Seems like it could be appropriate.

      Auld Rock

    96. Macart says:

      @Lollysmum

      My body is a temple.

      One of those ruined ones you see in national geographics. 🙂

    97. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Tam Jardine.

      You’re lovely too – but I’m still not bearing your children! Try soft-soaping Paula Rose…

      8=)

      Peeps – if you go to

      http://archive.is

      you’ll find its use is logically set out on the page. Highlight and copy the url of the page you want to archive (from your web browser’s address bar),
      paste that address into the box where it says,
      “My url is alive and I want to archive its content”,
      then click on the “save the page” button.

      Or, as Rev Stu pointed out, from the top of that page, you can drag the button that says “archive.is” to your browser’s toolbar, then click on it, whenever you want to archive a page you are looking at.

      If you paste in the url of a page that has already been archived, archive.is will tell you it has already been saved, which is what I found when I went to archive David McDowell’s Herald link.

    98. galamcennalath says:

      Petra says:

      “Cameron reckons that he can use 70,000, on the ground, Syrian opposition fighters”

      Usual story, either Cameron is stupid, or he assumes the public are stupid, or both.

      This 70k are all sorts of groups with all sorts of allegiances. All seem to oppose Assad, but some often fight each other too it appears. And, a quick look at a map of who holds what in Syria doesn’t show ISIL and non-ISIL-anti-Assad in obvious proximity.

      Add Russia who seem more interested in bombing non-ISIL. Then add Turkey who are pissed off that Russia are bombing the groups they have been assisting, and, are conducting a parallel conflict with Kurds.

      Anyone who sees bombing ISIL achieving anything significant towards an overall peace must be delusional …. or have another agenda.

    99. Cadogan Enright says:

      Its clear that many Labour councillors will want a political future and will be considering their options. Hopefully there may be more of a torrent after the Scottish elections next year.

      in view of the need to win over at least 1/11th of ‘NO’ voters anything other than “Ceud míle fáilte” and the red carpet would be a mistake unless it was someone who had committed the political equivalent of war-crimes.

      Clearly the aspiring SLAB>SNP defector should be able to describe the logic of their turn-about and should be vetted in the normal way and monitored until the next elections. Asked about their ability to respect the whip in their new party. And the nearer we get to the election, the less attractive the SLABber will become as SNP selections get clearer and candidates devote hundreds of hours to unseating the prospective deserter.

      If there has been a long-standing hard-working SNPer or 2 who have been working night and day for the last few years towards the local election in the area who could be discombobulated by the defection, as it might interfere with their campaign and years of effort to get elected – they need to be openly consulted as does the local committee. People need to be reminded that 9/20ths is not enough and that 11/20ths are needed.

      (Yes, I know that there are 100’s of new people in every area, but I am a believer that we need to make sure that a fair share of those who have stood in elections for the last 20 or more years also need to get on the ticket – not just bright new young things – it is an STV election – there can be more than one candidate)

      A lot of these Labourites bring a clan with them, this is not to be sneezed at.

      If a happy compromise is possible – why not get the defector to make public statements about S.Labour needing to switch to supporting independence? That Labour in the UK is in the wilderness? and only an independent Scotland can bring a non-Tory future into being etc etc

      Then a photo call the following month with the local SNP folk?

      Over the years I have seen parties in Ireland collapse and the rats scuttle to the next sea-worthy ship. Many of the deserters contribute significantly to the new entity.

      Why massacre the surrendering forces when you can use them in your army so long as they bring their bag-carriers with them?

    100. dakk says:

      Cadogan Enright 10.53

      Sounds like a plan.

    101. liz says:

      I will never trust a SLAB cooncllor coming out.

      Only interested in their own career.

      IMO they would return to being unionists when it suited them

    102. A2 says:

      Slab think tank on preventing independence…

      “who’s unpopular?”, “we are Blair” “ok if we support indi, it’ll never happen, right?” “but they’ll twig”… “one at a time chaps, even that bastard from Bath won’t notice`”

    103. Les Wilson says:

      Absolute truth is, that if there is a war, almost any war, Westminster and it’s right wing media friends must get into it.If I was cynical, I would think they had shares in weapon manufacturers………..

      Ref the Slab Councillors etc who have apparently had an ephifany?, I would never believe them. They have form with lies. Future moles would be more accurate for me.

      Sure it is good for them to speak out in support, but give them a lie detector test right after.

    104. K1 says:

      epiphany Les, just cause ye asked 🙂

    105. Grouse Beater says:

      Project Fear:

      Bit late to the party, but if you’re thinking of buying the book as a stocking filler: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-2Cm

    106. BJ says:

      I think they have realised the dripping roast has dried up, reality has set in and they need to get on the winning side soon. Looking after their own sorry asses.

    107. frankieboy says:

      Personally, I could not give two hoots about anything the Labour Party are doing. I hope it dies. In my lifetime they have been the greatest political disappointment and it has emerged to be that they are the biggest liars and self-interested troughers yet. Political expedience and cronyism are their guiding principles. Never to be trusted again.

    108. Les Wilson says:

      K1 says:
      Thanks, nae spell checker these days!

    109. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      I think generosity has to be shown to people who come onto our side. We are a movement that relies on conversion.

      As I wrote a few weeks ago the travel is towards all Scotland against the Tories on the independence question

    110. Robert Peffers says:

      @schrodingers cat says: 30 November, 2015 at 5:49 pm:

      ” … lots of labour councillors, at the thought of losing their sinecures, will be revolting”

      IMO: Most of them have been disgustingly revolting since birth.

    111. Jack Murphy says:

      From main article:”
      “A spokesman for Scottish Labour insisted party leader Kezia Dugdale is relaxed about”………….
      Seems “relaxed” is the fashionable word these days with Labour everywhere.
      Labour Westminster are using it in relation to Corbyn’s attitude to Labour MPs voting with the Tories to bomb Syria !! 🙁
      Look/listen for “relaxed” over the next few days——it’ll be everywhere.
      Signs of a party covering the cracked walls with wallpaper.
      I’ve heard it at least a dozen times in the past couple of days.
      RELAX!

    112. Sooz says:

      Must say I’m not a little sceptical of Conversions on the Road to Holyrood, given the level of viciousness levelled at the SNP during the ref and the election. Not to mention the vitriol unleashed on Labour people who wanted to vote for Indy, formed their own “Labour for Indy” group and came under heavy bombardment from their own party. However, I’m swayed by Bob Mack’s endorsement of Councillor Robertson, so am reserving judgement for the time being until he has proved himself to be a genuine convert.

      Was the ref a whipped vote for Labour? I don’t think it was, but am open to being corrected. I’m sure there would have been many public No voters who privately wanted to vote Yes, and given that the vote isn’t exactly secret for ever and a day, those whose minds were firmly on their own careers wouldn’t have risked it.

      O/T – Just been reading the rules for posting, to refresh my gnarled and aged brain, and read, marked and inwardly digested the reminders not to bugger the page up. I was instantly reminded of my failed attempts the other week to post a graphic into the thread, having seen someone else do it with vim and poise, but I myself failed miserably and screwed up three posts. (Sorry, Rev. I’ve not had hammers delivered in my general direction, for which I thank you.)
      Can anyone give me a foolproof way of adding a pic?

    113. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Sooz.

      You can’t “post a graphic into the thread”; however, you can post a link to a graphic or pic in a comment.

      When you see a graphic/pic you want to use, RIGHT-CLICK on it and, from the drop-down menu that appears, select “Copy image location.”

      You then PASTE that link into your comment. Readers click on the link to see the graphic/pic.



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