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Hawks and doves

Posted on June 07, 2016 by

Last month Scotland on Sunday published some findings from a poll covering, among other things, backing for Trident and for a second independence referendum in the event of a Brexit vote.

We didn’t think much about it until a reader told us that Labour MSP Jackie Baillie had trumpeted the Trident result – a wafer-thin 43-42 majority in favour – in her column in the Helensburgh Advertiser. We were curious to see the finer details and set about finding the full data tables for the poll, which was conducted by ICM.

tridentmissile

(Under British Polling Council rules, pollsters have to release full data within 48 hours of any headline findings being made public.)

Weirdly, they didn’t exist.

ICM’s website and Twitter account made no mention whatsoever of the poll. Tweets and emails about it went unanswered. The Advertiser’s website didn’t carry Baillie’s column and her own site had nothing about the poll either. But today, two and a half weeks later, we finally got hold of the data, and it was pretty interesting.

icmtrident

That the over-65s were the age group most in favour of keeping the nuclear missile system was no great surprise. And it’s perhaps also not all that much of a shock that the geographical areas happiest with it were mostly the ones located furthest away from the missiles – the North-East, with a 10% majority in favour, and the Highlands & Islands, with a whopping 21% margin.

(Bigger even than that in the West, where the submarines at least provide jobs.)

But the more interesting result was that among voters of the respective main parties. By a huge margin (68% to 22%) SNP voters wanted Trident scrapped. But the voters of Baillie’s own party, which has recently adopted an official policy – in Scotland – of opposition to the nuclear “deterrent”, were hugely in favour of keeping it.

Just 26% of Labour’s remaining Scottish voters wanted rid of Trident, with a thumping 61% in favour of the weapon of mass destruction. You’d think that Baillie, who now stands alone in Scottish Labour in supporting the nukes, would want to make more of the fact that the party’s voters stand full-square behind her.

But the impressive thing about the poll findings is that they achieve something we’d have previously thought impossible – complicate Labour’s Gordian Knot of a policy on Trident even more. To recap the latest:

UK Labour official policy – IN FAVOUR
UK Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn – AGAINST
UK Labour party conference – IN FAVOUR
UK Labour voters – AGAINST
UK Labour defence committee – IN FAVOUR
Scottish Labour official policy – AGAINST
Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale – IN FAVOUR
Scottish Labour conference – AGAINST
Scottish Labour voters – IN FAVOUR
100% of Scottish Labour MPs – AGAINST
Faslane’s constituency Scottish Labour MSP – IN FAVOUR

For the branch office and the party’s own good, it’s perhaps for the best that they’re not going to be in a position where they have to actually decide any time soon.

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    1. 07 06 16 18:56

      Hawks and doves | speymouth

    131 to “Hawks and doves”

    1. Jim Bo says:

      Labour Party policy as clear as mud.

    2. Dinnatouch says:

      The actual wording could have confused some people too, would you say yes to unmaintained nuclear weapons being scrapped on your doorstep?

    3. heedtracker says:

      Just 26% of Labour’s remaining Scottish voters wanted rid of Trident

      MAD. That “remaining” SLabour vote could well be end of era, as the red tories head off to oblivion. Good riddance. PS, take the BBC Scotland freak show with you SLab,

    4. Nation Libre says:

      How about a survey asking remaining Labour supporters: Are you really an ashamed Tory?

    5. Hawks and Doves.
      Labour Craws.

    6. AngusMan says:

      Older people can be like children. They can be incredibly Impressionable and take their opinions from other older people around them. The more extreme the comments from their peers, the more they will parrot them. So I’m not surprised at the over 65s statistics.

    7. Karmanaut says:

      I’d like to see someone ask the question, “are you happy to spend £205bn to renew the nukes, or would you rather spend it improving the NHS/ giving everyone a free holiday?”

    8. Firestarter says:

      One of the interesting things about this is that there ARE remaining Labour Scottish voters.

    9. heedtracker says:

      End of era SLabour activism in UKOK action. I’ve yet to hear a SLabour chump like Duncan explain why teamGB needs nukes in their Scotland region, when no other EU nation state bar France has them.

      The real tragedy is that nukes clearly enable the tinpot red and blue tory Westminster war machine, running after the US, wreaking havoc across the planet but hiding behind Trident, that’s plenty far enough away from big English population centres.

      CommonSpace @TheCommonSpace
      Activists project “Trident is a war crime” onto Palace of Westminster
      http://bit.ly/1Ycuduk

      Duncan Hothersall ?@dhothersall 7h7 hours ago
      Duncan Hothersall Retweeted CommonSpace
      Thereby proving themselves to be complete idiots.Duncan Hothersall added,

    10. Legerwood says:

      AngusMan @ 6.56 pm

      The over 65s lived through the Cold War and many probably were children during WWII. Those who are 65+ would be children in the 1950s and would get drills at school about what to do in the event of a nuclear attack. In the early1960s when they were at secondary school there was the Cuban missile crisis.

      So at an impressionable age they were exposed to the very real possibility of nuclear war. That would continue throughout their 20s and beyond.

      For some it would forever set them against nuclear weapons for other it would reinforce their belief that those weapons guaranteed their freedom and peace.

      Whichever position they take on the issue it most certainly was not arrived at in the facile manner that you describe.

    11. Thepnr says:

      @AngusMan

      Thing is though, the next generation of the 65+ demographic are those in the poll aged 55-64 and it was this age group who most voted for having Trident scrapped by 53% to 39%, more than any other age group.

      Does seem a little wierd.

    12. Dr Jim says:

      The Labour party has been very clear on this issue and have had due process with the party members throughout the country and have had a fully democratic vote and have come to the quite reasonable conclusion that the Labour party is a broad church and many of it’s members have differing views on the subject and that’s as it should be in a democratic party such as the Labour party whereas the SNP have only one thing on their mind and it’s continual drive for Independence and that can’t be allowed to cloud the most important issue that is the SNP bringing ruination on our country with their fantasy economics and not getting on with using the impressive array of new powers coming to the Scottish parliament for the improvement of the absolutely dire results in the Scottish NHS under the SNP and our children now leaving school unable to read write and count

      That was a quick impression of Ian Murray, are you dead yet?

    13. Clootie says:

      …why would my fellow Scots support WMD?

      Can it be that all those of a sound mind have left Labour because of issues like this and now only the die hard unionists remain under the Labour banner.

      The need to attract the lost votes bac by holding one policy yet have the exact opposite view at the same time to keep the remaining support…..the answer – hold every view at the same time.
      Be all things to all men.

      Unfortunately my generation and older are the problem – brain washed by decades of the too wee, too poor and too stupid propaganda.
      I hope the next generation continue the Independence fight for the generations that will follow them.

    14. Iain More says:

      So they have had two and half weeks to manipulate the data! Complete and utter failure to follow BPC rules pretty much invalidates the whole exercise for me. Even the question stretches the limits.

      Nor do I believe for a second that as many as 22% of SNP voters want Trident kept! Beggars belief that one!

      Oh and even a cursory look at the weightings are skewed against the SNP. I am sure that James Kelly of SGP would trash that poll ruthlessly.

    15. heedtracker says:

      AngusMan @ 6.56 pm

      The over 65s lived through the Cold War and many probably were children during WWII.

      Not that many. If you were born at the start of WW2 in 1939 you’d be hitting 80. Say you were 5 in 1945, you’d have little if any war memories to frightening into their Trident keeps us safe mind set.

      They probably mind the Cuban Crisis much more clearly when WW3 total nuke war came as close as it can get.

      Makes no odds to that 65 plus group, because it’s just the usual boomers, rich, middle class, final salary pensioners in fine £million+ houses they bought in the 60’s and 70’s, for peanuts.

    16. mogabee says:

      Jackie Baillie…

      That’s all I need to know.

    17. Dr Jim says:

      I live in Bishopbriggs and am surrounded by older people as I am myself but I have to agree they are as brain dead as 13 year olds and Green voters with absolutely no grasp of reality or even the country they live in

      Truthfully most of them if offered a Trident would likely think it was an Ice Lolly or if you said the money saved might help the NHS the answer would more than likely be something along the lines of “I only need it sometimes son so it widnae make much difference tae me, mibbee some o thae younger anes might like it bit ahm no that bothered although I don’t like that Sturgeon or Sammin”

      The only things to persuade this older age group are Free Food or more pension money

      The funny thing is they don’t even know who’s in charge of Labour they don’t know their MP or MSP and many of them don’t know who even won the election until they ask me, because I’m the SNP man, and then they do the most important thing that age group do

      Completely ignore and forget everything you just said

      I try not to take it personally, if I did, I’d be a serial killer

    18. Scott says:

      Re Nuclear Weapons any truth in this report.

      on.rt.com/7epo
      Maybe Jackie Baillie could tell us.

    19. yesindyref2 says:

      “weapon of mass destruction”

      As I keep arguing, it’s a deterrent, not actually intended to be used to mass destroy anyone, in fact the idea is it saves lives by preventing all-out war.

      Anyway, bearing in mind what West of Spitoon says about the T26, and the MOD running out of money, never mind the morality or otherwise of Trident, it might get to the stage where the UK has Trident and bugger all else.

    20. Auld Rock says:

      At 73 I’m against renewal but maybe I’ve got the advantage of visiting Hiroshima and seen the memorial to those turned into radio-active ash in a nano second. Also perhaps those in favour should sit themselfs down and ask themself, “would I be prepared to press the trigger and approx 4 mins later know that I had murdered millions of innocent civilians?”

      Auld Rock

    21. john mooney says:

      JacKie Baillie? Nuff’Said!

    22. Luigi says:

      To say that Labour are all over the place on the Trident issue is a gross understatement. It is interesting that the nuke preferences of Tory, Labour and LibDem voters are very similar – no wonder they are so quick to vote for each other tactically. Remaining Labour voters seem to be a mix of Blairites/soft Tories and confused LibDems (with a small scattering of old, fading diehards thrown in). All the progressives bolted long ago. It seems to be suicidal for Labour politicians in Scotland to be against Trident when in fact most of their remaining (keyword) supporters are for Trident. And they wonder why they ended up in third place last month. 🙂

    23. Indigo says:

      The terms scrapped & maintained both seem to me to carry emotional baggage that will likely have skewed the result in favour of maintain

    24. yesindyref2 says:

      @Heed
      Suez was a bit of a problem also of course, though not so well known. London and Paris were both at risk.

    25. Legerwood says:

      heedtracker @ 7.27 pm

      There are a lot of people born in the immediate aftermath of WWII or have you forgotten the baby boom?

      I was one of them and I remember getting a talk at Primary School about what to do in the event of a nuclear bomb going off. I remember too seeing the TV programme about Hiroshima that went out in the mid – 1950s. They showed a lot of graphic footage that has never been shown since.

      I remember too when the siren was taken down at the local police station to be replaced by a larger one that would sound the 4 minute warning.

      Then the Cuban Missile crisis when I was at secondary school and for many years after the tension of the cold war.

      As I said in an earlier post all of that and more has shaped the position my generation and older take on the issue of nuclear weapons whether for or against.

      Dismissing them as brain dead as some posters have done (Dr Jim)is no way to persuade anyone to the cause you support. Better that you understand what they have been through and acknowledge the role it may have played in shaping their point of view and then you might have more chance of changing it.

      The difference in attitude between the 55-64 age group and the older age group may reflect the difference in experience of the cold war and how it affected them.

      The constant denigration of the older generation on this issue and many other issues relating to independence is not designed to persuade them to your cause. Quite the opposite.

    26. Rock says:

      AngusMan,

      “Older people can be like children. They can be incredibly Impressionable and take their opinions from other older people around them.”

      The exact opposite is true.

      The elderly are extremely stubborn and will not change their view no matter what.

      Furthermore, the vast majority of them are diehard unionists proud of the British Empire.

      Very little point in trying to waste resources trying to convince them.

    27. Rock says:

      ” it were mostly the ones located furthest away from the missiles – the North-East, with a 10% majority in favour, and the Highlands & Islands, with a whopping 21% margin.”

      Apart from NIMBY, the demographics of those regions would probably explain that.

    28. David says:

      Note that the question states that Trident “is based in Scottish waters”. True, but misleading.

      If it had said the equally-true but more worrying Trident “is based only 26 miles from the centre of Glasgow”, perhaps more people would have chosen to scrap Trident.

      I have to admit I am surprised at the high level of support for Trident. I would have put Scotland-wide support for nukes at about 25%. 🙁

    29. handclapping says:

      Its a bit like this EU referendum leave / remain, just a bald question scrapped / maintained. And like the referendum all the useful bits like you can’t have Trident and free personal care are airbrushed out.

      If its a bald question with no consequences then people will adopt the aristo stance encapsulted in their motto – “What I have I’ll hold.” – and vote to preserve the status quo. And when you are over 65 you are aware that for you there are no longer consequences, you’ll die anyway whatever you vote.

      But then I’m 75 so I dont care if you dont believe me 😀

    30. Rock says:

      Dr Jim,

      “The only things to persuade this older age group are Free Food or more pension money”

      They would still vote No.

    31. Robert Louis says:

      So, the Labour party under their ‘radical, leftie’ leader Jeremy Corbyn, has just voted alongside the Tories at Westminster for the new snoopers charter. This will mean that ALL the websites you visit, the E-mails, texts, phone calls, skype messages – everything you do basically will now be collected and stored by the Government, for their use and by Government agencies.

      Well done Labour, yet again failing to vote in the house of commons for the things you tell voters that you stand for.

      Labour = Liars.

    32. heedtracker says:

      Legerwood says:
      7 June, 2016 at 8:02 pm
      heedtracker @ 7.27 pm

      Baby boomers have had a lovely time. And they still do. What they lived through was a post war UK that spent at least 7% of its GDP on warfare, ready to stick it to the Russians. Today most countries spend less than 2% on warfare and just like the UK now.

      What we are living through is a UK withdrawing almost all UK military infrastructure spends from their Scotland region and pumping it into England, except Trident ofcourse. That Clyde side frigate factory con is probably the biggest UKOK shyst to date, but they profoundly lied over UK investment like the super barracks in the central belt, for returning German personnel.

      Its a long list of reneged on vote toryboy promises of military spend since 2010 but enough proud Scot buts didn’t seem to mind Sept 2014.

    33. CmonIndy says:

      100% of Scottish Labour MPs – AGAINST?

      Cant be right. Murray will be at about 51% FOR and 49% AGAINST Trident. Ready to jump over the mean when circumstances dictate.

    34. galamcennalath says:

      Why do so many Scots want WMDs? I just don’t get it.

      Though, perhaps it’s because many people just haven’t thought deeply about the morality of it. Are they really unaware of what these things do?

      Then also, if offered schools and hospitals OR WMDs they might not be so keen to choose Trident. In UKOK that isn’t a choice.

    35. heedtracker says:

      Well done Labour, yet again failing to vote in the house of commons for the things you tell voters that you stand for.

      Labour = Liars.

      Third party in Scotland this year, probably gone for good from Scotland, BUT thanks to proud Scot buts, SLabour have far more power over Scotland than SNP Scots.gov Holyrood. Long to rein over us, until independence.

      Thanks again proud Scot buts.

    36. johnboy says:

      Scrapped or maintained is not the same question as “Scrapped or Replaced?”

      I wonder what the outcome would be if the figure for cost of replacement was included in the question?

    37. CameronB Brodie says:

      For those wanting to understand the semiotics of Scottish Labour’s place within the space of British Labour.

      The Atomic Wars took place during the 1950’s. Colchester, England is the only city that was specifically mentioned as being nuked, but the book does say that many cities were destroyed in North America, Europe, and Russia.

      It was out of the chaos of these wars that Party emerged and seized control.

      http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/ns-dict.html

    38. Tom Platt says:

      Dinnatouch and Indigo have both put their finger on the problem IMO.

      It is the actual wording of this question that has provided the unexpected results. Nuclear weapons are dangerous and surely need to be maintained carefully, not scrapped carelessly. A tension has been created in the construction of the question between the use of a safe word like maintained and the danger involved in maintaining the presence of nuclear subs in Faslane. “Renewing” would have been a more relevant word surely, when this is the real issue in UK. Another tension has been created in the question between the use of a careless sounding word like “scrapped” and the safety of actually removing the weapons.

      The question, by design or otherwise, has thus confused..as it confused me initially. I had to think about my answer quite carefully. Some responders might not take the same trouble. It is after all only a survey and we need to watch the football.

    39. Cal says:

      Those are pretty depressing poll results. That so many people are happy to put themselves and, more importantly, everyone else at risk from radioactive contamination of their immediate environment and paint a giant “aim here” sign on their country beggars belief. And so many young people in favour of keeping them! When I was young we were regularly exposed to often quiet harrowing pictures of people who had been exposed to nuclear blasts. Maybe that’s why these things give me the Heebeegeebees.

      During canvassing I have encountered people on a couple of occasions who had never heard of Trident! Amazing but true.

      Only up side I suppose is that in the event of a nuclear war we’d all die very quickly. It would be the rest of the world that would suffer the slow agonising death.

    40. winifred mccartney says:

      JB clung on to SP by a handful of votes – she had actually admitted defeat before a recount – so I don’t think she should be gloating about Trident – and as others have said the question is poor and no choices given about how to spend the monies it costs to replace and no reference made to the cost which is escalating all the time.

    41. heedtracker says:

      Tom Platt says:
      7 June, 2016 at 8:57 pm
      Dinnatouch and Indigo have both put their finger on the problem IMO.

      It is the actual wording of this question that has provided the unexpected results.

      Its brainwashing. Its primarily why we have a tory BBC. Its a toryboy world, red and blue

      Trident’s meant to protect the free west, freedom of speech etc.

      Tonight Westminster voted for another round of UK.gov attacks on freedom of speech.

      http://www.snp.org/the_snp_won_t_support_the_investigatory_powers_bill_unless_it_is_amended

      However, we are very concerned that some of the powers in the Bill go against decisions of the highest courts in Europe on issues such as privacy and human rights. They also go much further than the powers available in other Western democracies, other countries do not feel the need for such intrusion to enforce the law and prevent terrorism.

      The powers to keep your internet browsing history and get bulk data, which have been criticised by the UN, both fall into these categories.

    42. galamcennalath says:

      Cal says:

      “I have encountered people on a couple of occasions who had never heard of Trident! Amazing but true.”

      I believe it. There hasn’t been enough education and discussion about it.

      I had a conversation where I asked the person what they though Trident was for. They said, sinking enemy ships. (Yes, they do carry torpedoes for that purpose.) When I explained their primary purpose was to destroy cities and kill millions they were shocked. But what is shocking is that it was news to them!

    43. Scott says:

      O/T
      Inveramsay Bridge.
      This was a bottle neck on the A96 for years but a new road built does away with this problem why is it that there has been very little in the press or STV is it because it was the SNP fixed it.

    44. Thepnr says:

      I’m not surprised at all of the ignorance in Trident shown by a great many members of the general public. Talking mainly here of those who are non politicised or specifically anti-nuclear.

      You know more “ordinary” people like your cousin or your granny.

      Through no fault of their own, they have lives to live and not everyone is an anorak. The reality is that these people are ignorant because the government chooses that on certain issues ignorance is bliss.

      If it was government policy to educate the UK public on issues such as Trident then we wouldn’t be subjected to the Great British Bake Off on state propaganda BBC.

      We would have programmes explaining the costs of building and running a Trident replacement compared with alternatives for spending that money. We would be informed how significant Trident really was in comparrison with the USA and Russian nuclear armaments, a drop in the ocean. You get the picture.

      No, instead the public get Britains Got Talent (but no brains).

      Keep them ignorant was also the mantra during the Independence referendum, the same is true to an extent about the EU Ref, less successfully because many newspaper magnates with vested interests support an exit along with a great deal of right wing Tory establishment figures and their unlimited pockets full of cash provided by their hidden backers.

      A large proportion of the public are ignorant simply because access to useful information on important issues has been deliberately denied them.

      So no, I’m not surprised of the abundant ignorance, even here.

    45. JGedd says:

      The over 65s, why that’s the age group I grew up with. They were teenagers in the era of flower power and yes, like me remember the Cuban crisis, if you prompt them. (That was truly a frightening time when it really looked as if we were staring at Armageddon.) It was also the era of Dr Strangelove and Fail Safe. It was cool to be anti-war.

      Now those young people who castigated the old men who would drive us into nuclear holocaust are comfortable with Trident, having become old themselves. Why would that be? Well it’s human nature, they have lived with nuclear weapons and no longer fear them simply because they have become old in their shadow and have ceased to even think of them. The threat of nuclear war once seemed imminent but now youthful angst has been soothed by the daze of longevity and dulled by time.

      You can, after all, only live for so long in fear of something which once happened but has now receded into history. Asking people who have lived in what seemed to be safety for decades to imagine the dangers inherent in the very presence of nuclear weapons is therefore difficult. Unfortunately,they have been habituated into disregarding them.

    46. HandandShrimp says:

      The SNP are not perfect, no party is, but with a blend of quiet competence on the SNP part and truly shocking opposition on the other it is hard to see past the SNP.

    47. Ruby says:

      Ex-defence minister: UK Government has delayed Clyde work because defence budget has run out of money

      http://archive.is/dS44c

    48. Bob Mack says:

      Having lived through the Cuban missile crisis and numerous conflicts,there is one thing that I am convinced of. If a country has weapons ,they will at some point use them. Every form of despicable munition,including nuclear weapons has been tried and tested on human beings.

      I have no doubt it will happen one day if we do not get rid of them. The only thing that would make countries do so would be an even more deadly discovery of weaponry,which would make nuclear weapons redundant.

      It is a strange world right enough.

      I cannot remember the name of the type of bomb which the American military developed to leave property intact ,but kill every living thing in a city.

    49. heedtracker says:

      FT says Clinton’s won the nomination. Another war mongering fcukwit in Wall Street’s pocket. So that’s us stuck with Trident until independence.

      “Hope you don’t lose Scotland” Hilary shouted to one of the Millibands, 2014.

    50. galamcennalath says:

      Threads (1984) should be compulsory viewing ..

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threads

      And The War Game, made in 1965 but never shown until 1985 …

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_Game

      If those don’t scare the shit out of you, nothing will.

      Supporting WMDs should be an informed decision. After watching those, you are much better informed!

    51. heedtracker says:

      ITV EU debate with Cameron, England only, no mention of their Scotland region, except as a third party possession that they could lose with Brexit.

    52. twathater says:

      Sorry OT slightly I am beginning to seriously doubt the intelligence required to work and make decisions within the EU, this morning on daily politics it was announced that further to the success of the agreement between the EU and Turkey to stop or stem the influx of migrants and refugees to the EU at the TINY amount of 5 Billion Euros and visa free travel for Turks within the Schengen zone. The EU intelligentsia have decided in their ultimate wisdom, to extend this fantastic ( working or not ) idea to more Middle Eastern countries and African countries.
      They are proposing to GIVE ( Or Bribe ) African and ME countries with money and visa free travel within Schengen to dissuade and stem migrants attempts to get to Europe . Their belief is that if they give the money to these countries, and the relevant governments spend it on infrastructure and making the places better ( aye right ) the migrants will be happy with their new things ( provided that the dough will not end up in somebody’s bank account ) and they will not seek the promised land or the streets paved with gold.
      WTF the Turkey deal hasn’t worked, they are just finding and using different routes, we will never stop this onslaught until politicians realise that we cannot accept everyone, multi culturism and integration are creating massive problems. STOP BOMBING THESE COUNTRIES AND CONTRIBUTING TO THIS PROBLEM, MIND YOUR OWN F****** BUSINESS , LET THEM DEAL WITH ISIS IN THEIR OWN WAY

    53. crazycat says:

      @ Bob Mack at 9.49

      Neutron bomb:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_bomb

    54. heedtracker says:

      Example of UKOK toryboy world works in their Scotland region. SNP Named Person bad, Westminster Snooper’s Charter good. Yoon culture is very creepy because…

      Kenny Farquharson ?@KennyFarq 23h23 hours ago
      Joanna Cherry MP criticises “dragnet” principle of putting whole population under surveillance. Except for “named person” law, clearly.

    55. louis.b.argyll says:

      The poll is rubbish.
      The terms..
      ‘scrapped’ (vs) ‘maintained’
      are loaded with suggestion..
      (esp to those most suggestable)
      ..seemingly wasteful to scrap anything, and, maintaining the stiff upper lip. And all that.

      I would commission A NEW POLL immediately, if I was you, Rev C.

      Q1 – HOW FAR FROM A MAJOR CITY SHOULD NUCLEAR WEAPONS BE BASED?

      Q2 – DO YOU SUPPORT MAINTAINING THE UKS NUCLEAR DETERRANT IN ARGYLL, 26 MILES from Glasgow?

      Q3 – DO YOU AGREE THAT –
      IF MONEY CAN BE FOUND FOR TRIDENT,
      IT CAN BE FOUND FOR REINVESTING IN
      ALTERNATIVE INDUSTRIES ON THE
      SITE?

    56. Robert Peffers says:

      @Bob Mack says: 7 June, 2016 at 9:49 pm:

      ” … I have no doubt it will happen one day if we do not get rid of them. The only thing that would make countries do so would be an even more deadly discovery of weaponry,which would make nuclear weapons redundant.”

      That’ll be the Neutron Bomb, Bob Mack. Thing is there are far more deadly things than bombs.

      Biological and Chemical Warfare is far more dangerous but is being used already and it was all tested on humans.

      I worked in RADIAC but that included both chemical and biological weapon detectors. Way back in the 1950s/60s I attended courses on these detector systems and saw MOD made film of British service persons being gassed with nerve gas.

      Those images remain still clearly burned into my memory.

    57. Thepnr says:

      @galamcennalath

      Yeh, watched both those first time around and more than once since then.

      Threads link

      The War Game link

      If you have never seen either of these and have any interest to watch, I’d start with the older of the two, The War Game.

      We don’t make them like that anymore and they are even removed from youtube hence the vimeo links. Wonder why?

    58. Born Optimist says:

      Many of those supporting the retention of Trident don’t think they are weapons of mass destruction; they think of them as a ‘nuclear umbrella’.

      It makes the mind boggle, but that is what one of my relatives and her friends (all in their late sixties) prefer to think. Discussions with them are pointless and evidence is ignored if it is likely to disrupt their peace of mind. The same seems to be true for many of their generation whose only sources of information are corporate media and the TV, neither likely to encourage critical analysis. So there is the challenge: how do we get through to that portion of my generation?

    59. Ian Brotherhood says:

      If Trident is such a wonderful deterrent why don’t they shift it to Chipping-Fucking-Norton?

    60. arthur thomson says:

      I am not at all surprised that the over 65’s are for Trident. As a group they have been brainwashed for the longest period of time by the British state and its tory parties. Nor do I anticipate any meaningful change in the attitude of the majority of them towards independence unless some catastrophic event occurs. I make these points as someone who is in this age group.

      I remember these people when they were ‘young’ except that many of them were never allowed to be young. They have had to be dragged into the 21st century and have resisted every progressive idea from sexual freedoms to the eradication of racism.

      But a proportion of them have proved that they are capable of change and they will change if they are given a bit of time and respect and sense that they are actually wanted.

    61. donnywho says:

      Interesting use of words, “scrapped or maintained”, it implies that no new system is being purchased, that it is the old one that is being “maintained”. Scrapped implies waste and has negative implications.

      What would the answer been if you had asked, ” Do you approve of spending £220 Billion replacing the now defunct Trident system?

    62. CameronB Brodie says:

      twathater
      Have we met before?

    63. Brian Powell says:

      Scottish Labour just got useless-er! Yet not as useless as UK Labour voting with the Tories on the snoopers charter.

    64. ArtyHetty says:

      Makes you wonder whether liebour ever really know what they support, or don’t support, especially when lives are at risk.

      Regards those in their 60s, surely they know that a tin hat and hiding under a table is not going to save anyone from nuclear attack. We were told as kids, in the 70s, that tablets would be handed out, probably iodine, if it became a reality, as we hid under the bed covers terrified at night.

      The crime is that these mass killing machines are forcibly housed in Scotland, but the biggest crime is that they exist at all.

      If enough time should any lunatic ever press the button, it would be the brandy bottle in my house, must get some in. No use hiding under a table or anything, we would all be toast, probably before yanking the bottle open!

      Those condoning and using public funds to renew these wmds, should be locked up and the key thrown away quite frankly. What a legacy for future generations eh, how incredibly sad, how incredibly, diabolically stupid.

    65. robertknight says:

      “Hawks and doves” ? ? ?

      Xmas turkeys and headless chickens more like.

    66. Tam Jardine says:

      Very poor question. Do I want trident maintained? Hell yes- keep it well maintained until it is decommissioned. Do I want it scrapped? That sounds a little like chucking it in a big hole or dumping it at sea. You could even say: “I don’t want to maintain Trident- lets scrap it and build the next generation; something even more destructive to act as the ultimate deterrent”. Crazy but you can’t carry out polling with casual ambiguity.

      That the question is misleading cannot be accidental- if you want an accurate response you make the question as clear and unbiased as can be.

      Still though- quite disappointing figures. I wonder what the response would be on other less destructive weapons- should cluster bombs be scrapped or maintained? Should chemical weapons be scrapped or maintained?

      It is perverse to think this but something tells me that many more people would oppose these far less destructive weapons systems.

      Is there another country in the world daft enough to house another country’s nuclear arsenal close to their main population base? Slow clap for all no voters.

      What a vast expenditure of money, materials, man hours, ingenuity for this preposterous doomsday weapon we will never use.

      Do we even know it would perform in a launch against a target in space which, after all would be the only conceivable rational use for it to destroy an asteroid or extraterrestrial target?

      Imagine spending £162 billion on something else. Imagine pumping that amount of money into the UK economy on stuff that would do good!

      Nuclear submarines are just about the worst use of money in terms of tax revenues coming back. It is almost like the opposite of quantitative easing- spending a shit load of real money doing something that will have almost no positive effect on the economy.

      Imagine if the politicians cared as much about curing cancer or HIV or ending homelessness or food poverty as they do about being able to wipe out a few Russian cities as payback while the UK is turned into a hell on earth.

    67. Still Positive. says:

      I am now 65 and in that group but certainly not typical of them. I absolutely hate being lumped in with them.

      I have been in favour of independence for Scotland since 1967.

      I also remember the Cuban missile crisis in 1962 when I was 12 and just started secondary school. I thought my life could be over before it really had begun.

      I also live less than 20 miles from Faslane/Coulport and when those WMDs are transported south they pass very close to where I live.

      That is why I hate WMDs with a vengeance.

      Incidentally, had a conversation this afternoon with a Yes-voting neighbour (now in the 55-64 age group)who also doesn’t believe the over-65s voted ‘No’ in such numbers. All of the people I am friendly with over 65 voted ‘Yes’. We were the people who voted SNP in the 70s.

    68. Hamish100 says:

      For £220 billion how many schools that won’t fall down could be built?

      Or the odd frigate or two?

      Or provide local owned hydro schemes?

      Or health centres?

    69. MJS Dundee says:

      O/T

      I got a Vote Leave brochure through the door in Dundee today which left me speechless.

      It has all the usual distortions of fact, but on the back of it it has pictures and quotes from 5 characters: Gisela, Sir Richard Dearlove, Jim Sillars (no surprise and respect to his consistency on the issue if not on his position itself), some business character I’ve never heard of called Alastair MacMillan and get this …, Stephen Gethins – the SNP’s Westminster EU spokesperson.

      Stephen’s a dyed-in-the-wool EU supporter. Worked in Brussels for a good time and has stood as an MEP candidate. The way he’s had his words used correctly (I’m sure) but distorted into portraying him as a virtually Vote Leave supporter is mind blowing. It doesn’t say he supports Leave of course, but … . The quote below his picture is as follows:

      “We believe that the United Kingdom can be a successful, independent country outside the European Union …
      Scottish fishermen can tell of the failings of the Common Fisheries Policy”

      You can see that the ellipsis (…) is going to begin with “but” but what follows conveniently isn’t quoted. And there’s no indication that the 2 statement portions are connected or even from the same speech/statement.

      Wow. Portraying one of the SNP’s most ardent EU supporters as an Outer, or even accepting that Out might be ok, takes the biscuit – irrespective of your own view on the topic. Is there no depth that the Out campaign will not stoop to? It’s all getting very silly by now.

    70. Effijy says:

      Ruby says:

      7 June, 2016 at 9:49 pm

      Ex-defence minister: UK Government has delayed Clyde work because defence budget has run out of money

      http://archive.is/dS44c

      Does anyone have the archive of Wee Ruthie Krankie, Tory, on Radio EBC last week, shouting that the ships Promised for the Clyde, before the referendum will be placed and placed within the timescale that will guarantee we retain the skills of the shipyard workers.

      The Lying Tories have reduced the number of ships discussed, they may reduce it even further, and now there will be a gap in the orders where skills will be lost for ever.

      Well we Ruthie, how often can you lie and hope to get away with it. Tories Trash Scotland’s jobs at every opportunity.

    71. heedtracker says:

      Just watching a slave wage paying English billionaire shop owner explain how nice he is on Newsnight, with just one more quango wonk lying about slave wage policies that are clearly meaningless.

      The billionaire made his fortune flogging crap and paying peanuts and all through out the socialist worker Gordon Brown three terms as chancellor and PM glory years.

      Crash Gordon’s just another toryboy but his goonshow lingers on

      Scott Arthur ?@DrScottThinks 28 Jul 2015 Islington, London
      Labour’s recovery shouldn’t be about right v left, or rich v poor. It is about convincing everyone that social justice is in their interest.

    72. Ian Brotherhood says:

      ‘What might save us, me and you, is if the Russians love their children too…’

      FFS.

      Embarrassing stuff, but it wasn’t at the time. For a lot of folk it was ‘profound’, and tells us something abut the intensity of Cold War propaganda we were all subjected to.

      Sting, even in 1985, was a learned, well-read dude, so he didn’t produce such inane doggerel without good reason – he was aiming at the type of folk who might experience a ‘light-bulb’ moment from statements like ‘we share the same biology regardless of ideology’.

      Sting, ‘Russians’ –

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f6FWdzLg5M

    73. paul gerard mccormack says:

      iain chrichton smith:

      in the great wheel of the seasons,
      the hawks shall feed on the doves
      then the doves shall feed on the hawks.

    74. Macandroid says:

      ArtyHetty @ 10:3pm

      It would probably take me at least 4 mins to remember where I had stashed the emergency brandy and by then I’d be toast anyway!

      Silly thing about the subs is that they will soon be able to be tracked 24/7 and therefore easily neutralised should any dispute occur. Complete waste of money not to mention totally immoral and if we use them we have already lost big time.

      Only benefit of a nuclear strike on Faslane I can see is that it might blow a hole right across the central belt and the remaining mutant Scots could retreat to the new island of Scotland at last separate from England.

    75. Tackety Beets says:

      Many moons ago I was kinda neutral on Trident etc and if asked as above ,may have thought it ok to renew.

      Thanks to Wings posters over recent years, I have had to actually think about it & assess the full implications of N’ Weapons. Now without question would NEVER support it.

      I Own up to this to excuse & help understand those over 65 who may never actually considered the full implications of N’Weapons.

      Naturally a higher percentage of this age group are not benefitting from being on line either.

      FYI , I move into a new decade next week, awaiting my bus pass etc , hey ho , no retirement imminent .
      I do recall being a wee bit frightened in the 60s too.

    76. Balaaargh says:

      Blow for Sturgeon as Dugdale guesses the same answer as voters!

    77. Thepnr says:

      As long as war is waged, there will be weapons. It has been that way since the first small tribe of primitive humans met the second small tribe and the two fell out and a few clubs were used to clobber the tribe without clubs.

      Ever since that first eventful day when they fell out the tribes have tried improving their weapons just in case they fall out again and so it is to this day.

      Of course I favour scrapping nuclear weapons worldwide and particularly in the case of the UK and Scotland. Even if you did favour keeping them in the UK they are useless, compared to the arsenal of the US, Russia and probably China.

      Eradicating nuclear weapons worldwide will stop the ultimate mistake being made by an elected or unelected idiot who has his finger on the trigger. We cannot though uninvent that already invented and even in a world totally free of nuclear weapons a WW3 using conventional weapons would likely see the blueprints being hauled out to build a new weapon once again.

      So scrapping nuclear weapons takes us only part way there.

      We all remember the lofty goals of the Miss World contestants when that still appeared on telly. “End world poverty”, “prevent war and find World peace”.

      My how we laughed, while all along they were right.

    78. Thepnr says:

      @Tam Jardine

      The real “trickery” in the question was using the word maintained instead of retained. Both with different meanings in general usage.

    79. Still Positive at 10.47

      With you on that. We didn’t find any compelling evidence of the old voting NO in quite such a large percentage in our work in this area and no way the result tallied with our huge canvas.

      We must control the next ref ourselves

    80. scotspine says:

      Been quite warm lately.

      I wouldn’t want to be anywhere near the fragrant Baillie in this weather.

    81. Brian MacLeod says:

      Well I’m one of the over 60s and I’m dead against Trident and nuclear weapons.

      I have never forgotten the Cuba crisis. We really did think it the end was coming any second.

      I emigrated to Australia so my children were at less risk.

      Scotland will be toast if the missiles fly, and those few who survive will have horrible protracted painful deaths.

      Trident is madness.

    82. Almannysbunnet says:

      Speaking of hawks and doves how’s this for a mouthful from Brexiteer Lord Owen, if we vote out.

      “A structured conversation as envisaged could explore the methodology for reaching a consensus around the feeling that there must be developed a new needs-based assessment to replace the Barnett Formula.”

      Brexit and Scotland gets well and truly fcuked over. All in the interest of greater UK unity you understand.

      If this doesn’t make you want to stay in Europe nothing will. If the Scottish Parliamentary Journalist Association, who organised this event, had an ounce of Scottish pride they would have run him out of the room and back across the border!

      https://archive.is/xf5Rx

    83. crazycat says:

      @ MJS Dundee at 10.49

      https://twitter.com/C_KAndrews/status/740283417586245636

      Stephen Gethins isn’t too happy about it either.

    84. yesindyref2 says:

      Interesting. First thing I’d say is that while a lot of people might not have heard of Trident, they may have heard of Polaris and think it’s still going, but in any case most of them will have heard of the nuclear deterrent.

      And here’s the problem. Those who want Trident abolished don’t like to call it “the nuclear deterrent”, they talk about it as a WMD, a monstrous hideous thing, a monstrosity. Hiroshima and Nagasaki, with Chernobyl thrown in for good measure for some odd reason.

      But man of the older generation will think of the nuclear deterrent having given us 71 years of peace, no real threat to our shores. And I’m one of them.

      A better argument to use is to actually call it a nuclear deterrent, which it is, and ask people if 1). they think it’s still needed, 2). should the UK (and France) pay the whole cost for a nuclear deterrent which gives the whole EU a nuclear umbrella, and 3). would it not be better to spend the money on a bigger navy, considering that ours is now so small – just 19 surface fleet escorts. That might make defence minded people think a bit.

      To make a sensible discussion with a NO voter you have to empathise, to be in their shoes. Not your own mindset.

    85. Truth says:

      Scrap them.

      Even if I was in favour of nuclear weapons (I’m not) I still wouldn’t support the renewal of trident. Why? Because Trident and it’s replacement are useless.

      Firstly, we have no independent right to use them, we need launch codes from the USA.

      Secondly, the USA don’t trust us to use them and consequently all the targets we can hit are doubly targeted by USA held nuclear weapons.

      Thirdly, our nuclear arsenal is frankly tiny and if we were so inclined we could barely destroy one Russian city let alone several.

      Fourthly, Russia, and let’s be frank, that’s why we have nuclear weapons, will most likely have an adequate defence system to take out our nukes before they get anywhere near their cities.

      Which all adds up to an enormous waste of money in order for the likes of Cameron to wave his willy around (when he’s not hamming it up).

      The money would be far better spent on all those things they claim there isn’t the money for.

    86. There has already been hundreds of millions spent on the renewal of the `Successor` submarines to carry the Trident II Nuclear Attack Weapon of Mass Destruction Missile system,

      there are the nuclear reactors being built to run the subs,

      the steel for the hull,the design and manufacture of the missile launch tubes,infrastructure,electrics,

      it would cost us hundreds of millions to cancel,

      the boss of main contractor BAE Sir Roger Carr, is vice chair of the BBC,so don`t expect BBC to be unbiased on the Trident,Sub renewal debate.

    87. James Barr Gardner says:

      I served my apprenticeship as a scientific instrument maker with Barr & Stroud (Now Thales Optronics), 35 years service. B&S manufactured periscopes for the Royal Navy for over 100 years.

      I was a strong believer in nuclear deterrent especially in the 60’s, 70’s and the 80’s. Nato countries (450m) faced off against the Warsaw Pact countries (350m).

      However after the Berlin Wall came down and the Warsaw Pact unraveled, things should have changed to accommodate this but nothing changed.

      Nato countries now (900+m) now face Russia (145m). Logic dictates that the Successor Class submarines to carry Trident II missiles are now superfluous.

      Westminster Elite want to keep them just to maintain their delusional empire psyche, it is a disgrace, driven through by unionist maniacs.

      An Independent Scotland will be nuclear free, Scots are European, always have been and and respected for it.

    88. Dcanmore says:

      Over-65s are the easiest bought, idealism is gone for most and it’s down to money in their pockets. Simply say that the £millions saved each year by not having to maintain ‘nuclear warheads’ (wording!) from the military budget would mean a 50% increase in the state pension backdated one year, to give them a lump sum too. Job done.

      Cynical I know but if you want the old vote, then promise them gold (Indyref2 take note).

    89. Del says:

      AngusMan says:
      7 June, 2016 at 6:56 pm
      Older people can be like children.

      Dr Jim says:
      7 June, 2016 at 7:39 pm
      I have to agree they are as brain dead as 13 year olds

      arthur thomson says:
      7 June, 2016 at 10:15 pm
      Aa group they have been brainwashed for the longest period of time.

      What a bunch of effn pr*cks. I’m in my sixties. I was a schoolchild during the cold war and the cuban missile crisis and worried myself sick about it. No-one told me what to think. I did it all by myself. Despite that I hate trident and all it stands for by way of ‘deterrence’. I’d get rid of the lot at the drop of a hat. PS I voted yes, and I’ve largely voted SNP.

      But what I hate most are sweeping generalisations about the elderly, or any other identifiable group. It’s no better than SNP baad. Idiots. Foff, as the Rev might say.

    90. Chic McGregor says:

      Haud on a minute.

      The unweighted database showed a very clear majority for scrapping Trident, but the ‘weighted’ database showed a 1 point support for Trident.

      What kind of ‘weighting’ could produce that?

      A space-time distortion of super-massive black hole proportions.

      Are they still applying UK party support weighting to the Scottish vote?

    91. Chic McGregor says:

      Sorry, I looked at the wrong column there. Ignore.

    92. Thepnr says:

      @Del

      I hear you, those that fail to distinguish between Independence supporters because of party affiliation, age, gender, race or wealth are just overly opinionated. Let’s just say bias as that’s what it appears to be.

      It will take broad strong group to Win Scotland her Independence.

      Those that seek to divide over any issue between Independence supporters should take note.

    93. Smallaxe says:

      I was born in 1950 and experienced the fear during the Cuban crisis and all the rest spoken of further up this thread,it was no joke,just genuine fear.I also was just at the right age
      to enjoy Woodstock and the Summer of love.

      I can honestly say my feelings have never changed since back then,I voted yes and so did many of my friends from that era
      And I am getting fed up (pissed of) with some people thinking
      that all or most over 65s are happy with the status quo.

      Most of us have children and grandchildren and it is them we fight for and I for one will carry on that fight in any way I am able until I breath my last.Peace & Love to all.

    94. Vambomarbeleye says:

      I served for 25 years. Joined in 1968.
      I have guarded atomic sites in West Germany. There were a lot of battlefield atomic weapons.
      There were times when the Cold War may not have gone hot but it certainly got warm. Of course the general public were as usual kept in the dark. I remember driving through Dortmund in the 70s returning from leave as every siren went off. It really was a ‘o shit’ moment.
      Soldiers in a www3 scenario who had been irradiated would heave been returned to the front. Revers triage.
      Vulcan, Polaris and trident have all ways been a vanity project not a deterrent. We have it because the French have it. It lets us pretend that the UK is a world power. Our standing army, navy and airforce are no longer fit for purpose because of lack of funding. We could not launch another Falkland war.
      We don’t actually have enough war heads to make a difference in any type of scenario.
      Cuba was turned by warships. Egypt, Korea, Vietnam, Falklands, Gulf 1&2, Afghanistan. The nuclear deterrent was of no use at all. Money spent on conventional forces would have been invaluable.
      The tank is now obsolete apart from parking one the lawn of the presidential palace of the opposing side to say ‘you lost’
      Technologie is now on its way to make the seas transparent. Take away the surprise dynamic and every thing changes.
      Having talked to submariners. They still work on the Cold War scenario of a slowly escalating chain of events. Wistful thinking.
      Army’s prepare for the last war. It never is. No battle plan survives the first encounter.
      So! I am 63 next September. I have spent many hours in NBC suits and respirators. The nuclear deterrent isn’t. It should be scrapped and not renewed and that should have happened a very long time ago.

    95. yesindyref2 says:

      @Truth
      The three stage Trident D5 reaches Mach 17, and so far hypersonic missile interception is in its infancy, the Yanks gave up their program as too expensive though are probaby restarting it, the Chinese and Russians are making progress. Each missile has I think 4-8 warheads which freefall to target. The Vanguard has 16 missile tubes, though will usually only carry 8 missiles. But that’s a lot of interception, up to 40 warheads in freefall the Russians would have to be sure of destroying.

      Guidance is not GPS, it’s inertial guidance. And there’s no launch codes, it’s launched by a trigger, after two keys are unlocked from safes by the Exec and Weaps, after a signal from the PM. And the actual launch from the boat is by compressed air from around 60 foot depth (below that the hatches won’t open as it changes the integrity and shape of the hull), the main rocket doesn’t fire until the missile breaches the surface.

      Each warhead from Aldermaston / Burghfield has a variable yield of probably up to 100 kiloton – 10 times Hiroshima. So yes, the UK can destroy a Russian city – several. And the UK deterrent is functionally independent of the Yanks, though it’s unlikely they’d be launched without consultation.

    96. Still Positive. says:

      Smallaxe @ 1.15 am. Totally agree – we do this for our children and grandchildren.

      Aye me too, born in 1950 and remember the Summer of love -1967.

      Huvnae changed ma mind in aw that time – we’ll be so much better Independent and without WMDs.

    97. Thepnr says:

      @Vambomarbeleye

      Good post, needing said. The majority of readers I’m sure wish to hear from somebody that knows what they are talking about, much appreciated in this world of mainly disinformation.

    98. Almannysbunnet says:

      I see there are a lot of smart arses on here blaming “old people” like they are a different species! They believe that when the “old switch” is flipped, on your 65th birthday it would appear, the person completely changes into a greedy selfish cnut who cares more for himself than his country. What utter dross!
      I’ve got news for you, the body changes with age but if the fire burned inside when you were young it still burns inside and no amount of added years, bribery or brainwashing changes anything.

      If you are a young idealist with a bit a passion you will turn into an old idealist with as much passion, a bit more grumpy admittedly. Most ignorant selfish old cnuts didn’t change with age they were like that when they were young too.

      Dcanmore, try buying my idealism and you’ll need forceps to extract the 20 pieces of silver out of your gunggy!

    99. Smallaxe says:

      @ Still Positive, thank you,I wish people would realise that our bodies may age but the brain stays more or less the same,
      same thoughts and still fighting THE MAN!

    100. Thepnr says:

      @yesindyref2

      Not sure what your reply to Truth was about? All he or she said was scrap them and a waste of money yet you address with a reply about the weapons capabilities? That is his only post on this topic at 12:24 as far as I can see.

      I’m puzzled? Who gives a fuck how fast they fly or what their strike capability is. I doubt it was the poster Truth?

      Answer Truths post honestly, he hasn’t asked remotely what your response suggests. Or maybe you meant to address someone else?

      I hope you just erred.

    101. Smallaxe says:

      Almannysbunnet,You beat me to it well said Sir.

    102. yesindyref2 says:

      @Thepnr
      It’s a reply to 3 of Truth’s 4 points, based on the weapon’s capabilities, and known capabilities of the Russians.

      1). It’s independent
      2). Yes, except that in peactime the UK missiles aren’t targetted at all.
      3). The UK arsenal is sufficient, to destroyu several Russian cities.
      4). It’s fairly unlikely the Russians have an interception system capable of intercepting 8 missiles reaching Mach 17, or 40 warheads freefalling (no heat signature).

      Shrug.

    103. Petra says:

      Ye old shi*ty meeja in Scotland makes a point of not informing, worse still misinforming the Scots. Hang your heads in shame folks. Let your heads hang down, no eye contact with anyone whatsoever at all …. no Scot? …. not one bit surprised, but remember we wont, EVER, forget who YOU are.

      Anybody out there? Any blooming half decent Scottish journalist willing to speak up to protect Scotland and the Scots? The Daily Record selling newspapers to hundreds of thousands of people living within 25 miles of this horrendous bombshell ready to inform its readers? NEVER has done. Naw too busy publishing a load of old SNP Baad rubbish on behalf of its Westminster master (maybe even financial supporter?) …. FORGET IT.

      Exceptions to this is of course the Sunday Herald and The National. Thank God for them (if you care to buy and read them and you should, imo).

      The result of this lack of communication results in many Scots not having a bl**dy clue about TRIDENT worse still where it is located and the impact on us all through an accident waiting to happen on our roads (loads reported online), popcorn effect wherever, nuclear radiation leaks into the Clyde and surrounding area (loads reported) and a terrorist takeover. The latter should concern most people taking into account that we have three wee ‘Westminster boats’ covering 7000 miles of UK coastline whilst France has 40 wee boats covering 3000 miles of their coastline. That tells me through using mental arithmetic only that we should have around 90 boats our there. Ninety boats, some (many) of which, should be protecting our oil fields on the East Coast and Trident on the West (does France have such areas to deal with?). Additionally check out what Scotland has to pay through the nose for (Defence) the non-existent protection. Ken 500 will no doubt update us on this.

      The latest news, from some TOP ex-military expert, just last night explained that the MOD has nought in its funds. Nought to build ships on the Clyde. Nought to do sweet Fanny Adams with. GREAT Britain my ar*e. A total embarrassment and what a let down especially as it’s spending billions to replace Trident. Trident that can’t detect the greatest threat to us all … mankind …. the terrorist. Oh right blast away at some wee terrorist living in Scotland …. NOT.

      And then we get onto Johnny Liar …. JACKIE BAILLIE, the Scottish LABOUR Party (wee branch office) and THEIR ongoing GUFF (Leader can’t agree with Leader (Dugdale and Corbyn) and north and south branch don’t agree with each other either re. Trident). Vote for Labour? What’s that? And by the way Jackie we all know that the number of SCOTS employed at Faslane and Coulport number under 600 people. The MOD through the Freedom of Information Act tells us so, so cut it out missus.

      Moving onto who benefits financially from Trident and Faslane. Well it aint the Scots and NEVER has been. We are the blasted MUGGIES who have it planted on our land.

      There are approximately 200 hundred Countries in the World. NINE have Nuclear weapons – USA, Russia, UK, France, China, India, Pakistan, Israel and North Korea. Iraq was thought to have Nuclear weapons. They said that they didn’t. Bush and Blair said that they were lying and blasted the country to smithereens … 2003. It turned out that Bush and Blair were lying.

      THREE members of NATO, out of TWENTY EIGHT members, have Nuclear weapons – the US, Britain and France.

      BRITAIN being US: SCOTLANDSHIRE. Not ENGLAND …. who seem to want it …. but hey ho their residents say NO WAY.

      ”The RUSI Report states that introducing Nuclear-armed SSBNs to Devonport will unavoidably introduce a new risk that an accidental ignition of one or all of a submarine’s Trident D5 missiles could spread radioactive material over some of Plymouth’s 260,000 inhabitants …………but that due to the large population nearby “the consequences of such an event would be far more severe in Devonport than in Faslane’’. There you go.

      And the Scottish economy / jobs? Trident submarines have halted exploration of oil off the West Coast (loads of jobs) and most ‘Trident’ jobs are held by individuals down south NOT in Scotland. Get REAL folks. NO voters.

      Security, maintenance and so on is carried out by Babcock Marine Technology, an ENGLISH Company. Head Offices of marine technology, support services, defence and security, infrastructure and so on are all based in England (London, Bristol, Plymouth, Dorset) with a vast network of ENGLISH branch offices.

      Fire fighting training is carried out in Paisley, SCOTLAND (wonder how many jobs that generates?).

      Submarines such as HMS Astute, the lead ship of her class of nuclear-powered fleet submarines, are made at BAE Systems in Barrow in Furness ENGLAND and accounts for around 5,000 jobs at that one location in ENGLAND alone (plus additional jobs in surrounding area).

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYkgTwXAVzA

      Cammell-Laird in Birkenhead ENGLAND is focused on RFA fleet ship maintenance and repair and shipbuilding by supplying future aircraft carrier flight decks.

      UK Trident II’s (equipped with UK-produced warheads which get locked onto the nose of the Trident missile. Each missile has approximately 5 times the power of a Hiroshima bomb) are designed and manufactured by Atomic Weapons Establishment (AWE) in Aldermaston and Burghfield, ENGLAND. Not one Scottish ‘Naval’ accent to be heard on this video either. Or have they been told to ‘stand down’ as per usual?.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5fOaBnlT2E

      BBC telling us about a £1bn contract for UK nuclear submarines. The deal is part of plans to replace the Vanguard fleet, which carries the Trident nuclear deterrent. The work will be carried out at the Rolls-Royce factory at Raynesway, Derby, ENGLAND.

      A £37 million deal has been struck by Westminster with the US Government (US Defence giant General Dynamics) to make 48 launch tubes for four new UK Nuclear submarines. Some of the launch tubes were PREVIOUSLY made by BABCOCK, Renfrew, SCOTLAND. NOT NOW.

      And etc, etc, etc. I’m sure I’ve omitted to mention other English companies that benefit from ‘Trident’.

      In other words we Scots are taking ALL of the RISKS for no reward other than the few crumbs we get thrown our way now and again from Westminster ……. thanks to the liars at the Scottish Labour Branch Office, plus their media pals, telling us SO for decades now.

      Oh and I forgot to mention. Maybe any loss of jobs at Faslane (600 – kind of like the number of Scots who have lost jobs due to the ‘oil’ downturn – not so many Scots at all as reported by the Scottish meeja) could be replaced by oil and gas jobs off the West coast of Scotland and additionally at our future Independent Scottish Military Base at Faslane: supported by Dame Mariot Leslie ex- Ambassador to Nato, Ian Godden prior Head of the Defence Industry and Lieutenant Commander May Senior Naval Intelligence Officer at Faslane. They ALL voted YES for Independence and supported Alex Salmond’s Defence Strategy 100%. No mention of that on the corrupt Scottish media either.

    104. yesindyref2 says:

      @Petra
      Great on target rant 🙂

    105. Dr Jim says:

      @Del
      It all depends where you live Del boy, I’m 67 and my neighbours who are all oldies are as thick as the wax in their ears, most of them can walk perfectly well to the polling station (200 yards) they choose to do postal and during the referendum the local Liberal Democrat MP filled their ballots out for them

      They make no attempt to find out who represents them and they don’t care anyway just as long as it’s not that Sturgeon or Sammin because they know for sure they don’t like them

      You could say gently persuade them, change their mind, and all that would be fine, but they’ve got no Effing minds, like I said and stand by it, brain dead
      They’re whole life is taken up with gossiping behind each others backs about nothing or complaining the council left them too small a bin bag, and Morrisons fish is too dear and it’s all the fault of that government in Edinburgh, (We don’t need it anyway, whit’s it fur)

      Except for two people in my whole street and I know this because I deliver their SNP members letters

      If you want to engage that group go right ahead, me, I tell them to vote on a different day and it’s not important anyway, they still ask me who won the last one
      Anyway need to get up early for my free bus coz you have to use it or that SNP will take it away

      Jeez!

    106. Breeks says:

      For me the nuclear deterrent has never been the capacity of the weapons themselves, but the fear spawned in the hearts of our potential enemies that the British mentality is psychotic enough to physically use them. Be afraid world… be very afraid.

      The capacity for destruction is thoroughly depressing, but the thought of somebody one day handing the red button to the likes of Boris Johnston or his Etonian ilk should strike fear into the hearts of everyone.

      All of these nuclear vessels, ours, the US, Russia, China’s submarines and surface vessels are half way obsolete the moment they enter their brief period of effective service. In return, we are left with a heavily contaminated reactor core to get rid off which won’t be half way obsolete for several thousand years. Let’s ask Jackie Bailley specifically how and where she plans to dispose of this indispensible legacy before we charge ahead building more.

      If the ancient Egyptians had nuclear powered submarines, their decommissioned reactor cores still wouldn’t be safe to touch. We probably will conjour up some obscure wee crevice in the earth’s crust to lay to rust these poisonous legacies. But there isn’t a hole big enough or deep enough to bury our lunacy for building them.

    107. Clootie says:

      @ Petra 2:12am

      I love to wake and read a post like that. It ensures that I continue to stay “pissed off” with this Union and keep fighting 🙂

    108. Macart says:

      @ Petra 2.12

      Well said and right on the nail.

    109. Ken500 says:

      Whisky companies pay no tax and tax evade in Scotland. £Millions+ a year. They want to stop the Scottish Gov from limiting the damage done by ‘loss leading’ cheap alcohol in Scotland. These whisky companies have a damn cheek to put it mildly. They should be complying with the Law.

      Shell has been profiting from Scottish resources. Not the other way around. Who do they think they are? They have been plundering Scottish resources for years on behalf of a Westminster Gov. Secretly and illegally taking the equivalent of £Billions from Scotland. The Unionists wringing their hands about the Oil & Gas sector. They are pathetic.

      Osbourne has (deliberately) tried to ruin the Scottish Oil & Gas sector. Taxing it at 60/80% the price had fallen 75%. It is now 40%. Thousands of jobs have been lost in Scotland. The Tories no enterprise and high taxes. Scotland has lost over £4Billion a year. £24Billion. Enough to eradicate poverty. More Oil & Gas has to be imported putting up the balance of payments and the debt.

      The migration crisis was caused by Westminster bombing the Middle East to bits for years. The nonsense of being invaded by Muslims. The people come to Europe because they want more freedom not less. ie they want to be less religious. There are 2Billion Muslims in the world out of 7Billion people. 4Milliion in Britain out of 62Million people. All religions are losing members faster than a sieve loses water. The world is becoming more secular. The ‘Christians’ are bombing the Muslins’. Not very Christian. The way the West have carry on in the Middle East is totally despicable.

      The criminal lying murderers, fraudsters and child molestors are at Westminster. They hid their crimes under the Official Secrets Act and get away with murder.

      Westminster intends spending £203Billions Trident. They are sanctioning and starving vulnerable people to death. Westminster intends spending £20Billions a year, for ten years, on HS2 and Hinkley Point, a disaster waiting to happen. A total waste of public money which could be better spent. The Tory slush fund for them and their associates. Transferring public money to private associates. Totally without a business case. The Westminster Unionist are a total disgrace. They have not supported the NHS or cut the debt,

    110. Ken500 says:

      Hammond called Faslane ‘a waste land’. It would be if it was up to him. One of the largest City in Scotland is 30mins away and the beautiful West coast. These maniacs must be stopped. ‘Psycho bastards’.

    111. Robert Peffers says:

      @ArtyHetty says: 7 June, 2016 at 10:31 pm:

      ” … surely they know that a tin hat and hiding under a table is not going to save anyone from nuclear attack.”

      Matter of fact, ArtyHetty, the truth lies somewhere between the two. The way it goes is in the physics of the effects of a nuclear explosion but an explosion is actually the least likely danger.

      The first thing to consider is the several ways nuclear incidents will affect the human body. These include the affects of an actual blast. This is the same affect of any other form of explosion. The force of it blows humans to bits. If you are in the area of blast sheltering can save you from injury.

      Then there is the flash effect that not only includes light but also exposure to other radiations including from neutrons, x-rays and several nuclear radiations. Again, as these all travel in straight lines, shelter can shield the human body.

      Then we have the really most dangerous, (and most likely), effects and it doesn’t even require a nuclear blast to engender the danger.

      Joe & Josephine Public all know about nuclear radiation dangers but few know of the contamination dangers.

      It is this contamination, of even very low levels, that will kill and could affect all areas of Scotland and it is that contamination the government would issue the iodine pills for.

      In the event of the release of contamination, as happened during the April 26, 1986 nuclear incident at Chernobyl, the affected contaminated area of the Ukraine is now totally abandoned by human beings.

      There is no way to predict how that contamination will spread but the geography of Scotland indicates that the Forth/Clyde valley will act like a funnel as the prevailing wind blows west to east and there will be a flow of contamination right across the Forth/Clyde Valley where the bulk of the population lives.

      They won’t die instantly but by a long painful and miserable process that takes many decades to end.

    112. Dorothy Devine says:

      I am a golden oldie too , born in 1946 so a BIG birthday looms.

      I was a CNDer in my youth and have never believed in the waste of war or nuclear weapons.

      I remember the Cuban crisis , I was at school in the geography class and at 3p.m we all solemnly shook hands and bid each other farewell while waiting for the big bang.

      To this day I am puzzled by the fact that we all were sure the world was about to end but we all went to school anyway. How dedicated is that?

      For me the fight is for the children and grandchildren of Scotland and I will vote accordingly. I am just sad that others voted for their pockets and not the future – note that I didn’t put an age on the voters as I believe thoughtlessness nor selfishness is the prerogative of any particular age group.

    113. carjamtic says:

      Money,sorry to mention it,but it seems to be the only subject Tories care about,can someone take me through this aspect of it.

      My basic understanding,The UK is skint,it has no money,zero,fuck all,not a pot to piss in,but to pay for this ‘penis enlargement’,the money will be borrowed ?.

      Similiar to the PFI schools/hospitals debacle,only worse,a lot worse,am I understanding this correctly ?

    114. Famous15 says:

      What is it about our British Civil Service and computers?

      Farmers,patients,police,fire,revenue and customs,security and now strikiing at the very heart of our democracy; just what is going on?

    115. Petra @ 2.12 am. Well said.

    116. Tinto Chiel says:

      @ Petra, 2.12 am: well said. But contemplating the obscenity of nuclear weapons, the mendacity and hypocrisy of Yoon politicians and the supine lack of professionalism of the MSM at the same time can’t be good for your health.

      @Dr Jim: ever considered moving? To misquote “Jaws”, “That’s one bad street, Harry.”

      I tried using the removal of Trident as a reason to vote Yes with some devout Christians I came across occasionally during the campaign but to no avail. I found that hard to understand. Hope they’re happy living in Trident Park in the former S______d.

      “The War Game” was brilliant but “Threads”, made in the early 80s and describing a nuclear attack on Sheffield, was very upsetting too. I felt a sense of disgust and doom for weeks after seeing it.

      O/T: heard another dangerous weapon (and quite out of control) on Pravdasound4 this morning. The fragrant Laura Kuenssssssssssberg (my precious!) was describing the meltdown of the government’s on-line referendum registration web site. Concern in government circles that people might be able to cry foul. Extension of deadline a possibility.

      Don’t recall any such scruples as they trampled all over us two years ago and broke every rule in the book, including violating purdah.

      That’s the Union Dividend, of course.

    117. Ken500 says:

      Why is nuclear even being discussed, everyone knows they will never be used. The only ohe’s who have used them are the US, who perpetuate this obscenity. The world should just get rid of them.

      All the farmers were not due to get paid until the end of June. Some were a fortnight late. Not long overdue. The computer costs will be picked up by the EU who instigated the changes. The EU costs Scotland nothing but benefits. To lose EU membership in a UK Union costing Scotland £10Billion+ a year which could be better spent is the worst scenario for Scotland.

      Scotland, as part of the UK receives the lowest CAP payments in the EU. The EU gave Scotland extra payments. Westminster gave them to wealthier farmers in the rest of the UK. The Minister said ‘better together’.

    118. Dr Jim says:

      @Tinto Chiel

      Bishopbriggs Tinto, where there are still pockets of the madness
      Like driving in fog, it doesn’t matter what you do with the lights

    119. Petra says:

      @ Tinto Chiel …. .”Can’t be good for your health …”

      Yeah I’m totally amazed that my blood pressure remains at a steady 120 / 80 as living in Scotland under Westminster rule comes with a health warning.

    120. Almannysbunnet says:

      O/T In England police restrained an 11-year-old girl with a neurological disability using a mesh anti-spit hood, handcuffs and leg restraints while being held in custody overnight without a parent, guardian or social worker present to support her.

      The police have been rightly condemned. Strangely David Cameron has not been held to account but if this happened in Scotland Wullie, Ruth and Kezia, fully supported by the media would be outraged and “Sturgeon would have some serious questions to answer.” It’s only in Scotland that the elected leader is held accountable and responsible for everything bad that happens or anything good but not good enough. Bridge opening times, flooding, Chinese human rights abuse, the best NHS figures in the UK, blocked drains. Nicola is responsible for it all, she must be cream crackered overseeing it all.

    121. Bob Mack says:

      I have talked to many people over the years who were aghast at what happened at Chernobyl and Fukushima nuclear plants. They were appalled at the damage done by an accident which was caused by natural forces in the case of Fukushima, and by mechanical failure in Chernobyl.

      The thing is though ,they want to keep Trident , as if somehow that system would be impervious to an unseen event. It is just senseless.

      They do not believe,or have been convinced by Propoganda that Trident is ultra safe and somehow immune from accident.

      Interestingly enough only a small percentage were aware that the submarine was nuclear powered.They mainly thought nuclear referred to the weapons carried aboard.

    122. Valerie says:

      Truth @ 12.24am

      Well said. This pathetic fantasy that Trident is a deterrent is nonsense that many still swallow, just as they have swallowed all the other UK bullshit.

      Trident is well past its sell by date, and technology has moved on considerably.

      If anyone has followed Russia’s involvement in Syria even vaguely, one of the things that emerged fairly quickly, was the Russians supreme military prowess.

      Everyone was impressed, if not a bit taken aback. Pics of jets were circulating and being discussed in awe. The range of Russian hardware hadn’t been seen on this scale for a while, and Putin had a lot of new shiny toys.

      I think even now, folk realise Putin got involved because yes, he has commercial interests in an oil pipeline, but it was an ideal chance to show how Russia has progressed. Their involvement and quick clean up, has shown up the American plans for regime overthrow. No matter what you think of Putin, his timing was masterly, and it has put a spoke in America’s imperial plans.

      All Trident does is make us a target. If we are hit, however, I hope the Scottish mutants head south to the plentiful food sources.

      There was some defence guy on Twitter, and a few of us were asking him questions, much to his sneering annoyance.

      He said the missiles were ‘stellar guided’. I said that would be the same system the Vikings used then.

      Meanwhile, the Russians are so advanced in computer programming, they are looking at disarming missiles in mid air, and developing some kind of shields.

    123. Does Labour even know what its policies are from one day to the next, far less its voters?

      Because whenever I have challenged Labour voters to explain to me why they still vote Labour, answers come from them none.

    124. Artyhetty says:

      Re; dr Jim@2.46am

      Sounds like you live in my area, even street. We in fact are despised for being SNP. These people are despicable.

      Robert Peffers@7.56am

      I guess the yoons must be happy with that prospect, and you know hardly a day goes by that I don’t think, jeez, what if, given the lack of safety measures that have been reported regards Faslane.

    125. Grouse Beater says:

      Almannysbunnet: “A lot of smart arses here blaming “old people” like they are a different species!”

      If you’ve not already seen this: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-1o2

      I’ve discussed Scotland with a good few elderly, most are stubborn one way or the other. My attitude to the stick-in-the-mud No voters of any age is, though they might not realise it, they deny me and all others our civil rights.

    126. Vambomarbeleye says:

      Here in Wester-Ross we have subs all the time because of the undersea range. How ever it does not fill you with confidence when they don’t seem to be able to negotiate the Island of Skye. That’s two that we know of that have run aground on the Island. At considerable cost to the tax payer.
      These so called deterrents would be much better utalised as razor blades.

    127. Smallaxe says:

      Grousebeater. I tried to leave a much longer comment on WordPress but could not figure out how to log in and so lost my original copy.I just want to say that what you wrote was not a blog it is Poetry. Thank you so much

    128. Smallaxe says:

      Grouse Beater, I followed your link and found not a blog but
      Poetry. Thank you.

    129. Grouse Beater says:

      Smallaxe: “Grouse Beater, I followed your link and found not a blog but Poetry.”

      Guilty as charged, M’Lud!

      I seem destined to lean at rhythm, proportion and imagery. Movie producers hate the stuff when it appears in a script – “Goddam it! Nobody speaks like that!” – but not the cinematographers, always attracted by it to the project.

      The poetic is spiritual, sometimes seen in a tree or a flower or a child’s face.

      If you feel the essay holds solace for elderly you know please send it to them.

    130. Almannysbunnet says:

      @Grouse Beater says: 12:05 pm
      Almannysbunnet:
      If you’ve not already seen this: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-1o2

      I had not seen that but am grateful that I have now. 5 star writing. Thanks.

    131. AngusMan says:

      , touché AngusMan!



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