Happy Brexit Day
Posted on
June 19, 2017 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
This map probably correlates quite closely with one of the strength of Leave vote.
It seems somehow appropriate that on the day negotiations begin (with the UK having no government, no mandate and no idea what it actually wants), large parts of the country are essentially already on fire.
Thank goodness I live in cool Scotland.
I think the heat is coming from all the bridges that have been burned!
Peace Always
Imagine listening to ‘get tae…’ in twenty seven languages. Worse! How do you translate derisive laughter?
Hoping the EU team provide transcripts. 😉
Raining where we are – keeping the flames at bay!
Nearly 9.00 so they’ll be sitting down with their coffee ready to start.
Meanwhile the war on terror goes on.
It’s going to be a long hot summer.
I wonder how long it will take our negotiating team to realise that it takes two to negotiate.
The only negotiating our team will be doing is with the British people as they try to persuade us that they have achieved something or scored a point.
I think the process is going to be embarrassing.
Mad dogs and Englishmen, maybe it does have something to do with the Sun or anything to do with Murdoch newspapers.
Macart, derisive laughter translated for you, my Friend.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEsFnJ0He5c&ab_channel=Sassmaster_Champion
Peace Always
I wonder if the UK negotiation team will be dressed in clown fancy dress costumes.
I know it wasn’t really all that serious but it’s not true. Places like London, Brighton and Cambridge all came out fairly strongly for remain.
Arguing against Wings with info from the BBC goes against the grain but the heat maps here are quite good: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028
Kenny MacAskill (ex Justice) and Alex Neil (ex Health?) were re shuffled by Nicola. They have to accept the majority decision on Brexit. Independence campaign etc.Democratic. Voted for by the members at the Conference. Voted for by the majority of voters in Scotland. After the Unionist promises were broken. 2014. Deceit, hypocrisy, dishonesty and lies. Dishonourable behaviour. Not fit for public office. Breaking the code of public conduct and the ministerial code of Office. On Oath.
NanaBessie Smith sings “There’ll be a Hot Time in The Old Town Tonight.”:-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfkV1E0sBZ0
Brexit is predicated on a LIE that we can cherry pick the aspects of the EU membership we wish to keep. 1 year after vote and we still don’t have any consensus what UK actually wants from negotiations.
The UK government have a massive problem – if they declare UK seeks a soft / hard brexit or customs union then the LIE is exposed. Any negation with other nations involves compromise. Brexit has been sold to the nation by Boris Johnson and pals on the basis we can have cake and eat it.
NOW : if only there had been a published manifesto / white paper for leave…
This isn’t going to end well. Likely UK crashes out of the negotiating process with no future trad deal triggering another general election.
Auld highlander says:
19 June, 2017 at 9:10 am
“I wonder if the UK negotiation team will be dressed in clown fancy dress costumes.”
Do you mean like John Wayne Gacy? Probably I would think.
https://www.prairieghosts.com/gacy.html
Peace Always my Friend
@Smallaxe
I reckon it’d save them time if they stuck that on permaloop in the negotiating room today. 🙂
I echo wholeheartedly the first comment, we ARE cool in Scotland!
Thank goodness the EU is making all the negotiations public because I do not trust the UK gov. one iota.
David Davis does think he is offering a compromise. We want to leave the EU but as it was a narrow vote we have decided to be flexible and agree to retain all the free trading agreements but obviously none of the legal obligations and as for free movement you can just gtf. If you want to be associated with Empire2.0 you need to submit to our requirements.
Fairly standard temperatures for me. Weather in Valencia
Up to 37 degrees at the end of the week and above 30 for the next four months.
Legs on fire. Tories legging it and Brexiting it. Chasing all around the houses. It would be so funny if it wasn’t so tragic. Bonfire of the vanities. This could take years with no outcome. The Tories will negotiated a settlement which will cost more with less rights. Then try to sell it as some victory. With the right wing MSM support. Bringing down the world economy. Nothing surer. Par for the course.
Get ready for the next IbdyRef. Sooner rather than later. This farce will push it over the edge. It just needs Boris as PM as predicted. Eerie.
Weird weather. Some folk are hiding from it.
At the time of the French revolution. There was weird, unusual weather. The wind blew off the sea, Wrong way. (Mistral) There were unusual storms. Hail stones fell like golf balls. Extreme unusual weather. The storming of the Bastille. The population were starving, depressed and repressed. A population expansion (like migration? ) Increased births had led to unavailable of cultivation plots. People grew their own. The plots were getting smaller as the population increased and the division (inherited) available decreased. No land rights. Restricted. Famine and starvation. Liberty, equality and fraternity. The King deposed. The guilty guillotined. The reign of terror.
Macron has won a huge victory against the right.
Our Phormium tenax large green flax bush out front has so many flower spikes (some are level with me here upstairs) that I stopped trying to count at 25, with more coming up. The smaller variegated one behind it has two spikes coming up for the very first time.
It is going to be a long hot summer.
We are cool in Scotland. Edinburgh/Scotland ranked the best world destination.Tourism and investment. Independence in the EU. Our continental mates against dominance. The Auld Alliiance etc. Scottish invention and enterprise, philosophy changed the world. Scotland has friends all over Europe and the world. Appreciated by lots of people. Food, drink, energy, tartan, tourism, education, medicine music, film, literature and lots of products. To be proud. Open for business.
Peeing rain in Cullen. 13c.
Smallaxe @ 9.29
Mair like Pennywise the clown,with a mythical mission.
Macart, I agree.
🙂
Peace Always my Friend
liz g;
Pennywise, as you say is mythical, J.W.Gacy was real and like this union, killed a lot of people.
Peace Always my dear Friend
@Muscleguy
I have a garden, but am no gardner, so it is mostly lawn and only 3 beds with double anti weed carpet and 4 inches of bark mulch i.e. minimal maintenance. So when I started reading your post I thought for a second you had had a stroke.
Re the weather, the wife and I seem to be maximizing the Winter experience this year, in Spring we left up to 20C here to visit our son in Finland where the lakes were still frozen and at the end of the month we are off to NZ to see our daughter and new granddaughter for a month in the middle of their Winter.
Ach well.
“No deal would be a very, very bad outcome for Britain, but there is a possible worse outcome and that is a deal that is deliberately structured to suck the lifeblood out of our economy over a period of time,” Hammond told the Andrew Marr show – he forgot to say ‘like Westminster has done to Scotland for 300 years.’
That really dark bit of France in the graphic…is that where noted Leaver and climate septic Nigel Lawson lives?
The information filtering out seems to be that the UK is going for the Norway model
Funny, when Nicola Sturgeon put that idea forward it was deemed as unworkable nonsense
I suppose it’s because she’s just that stupid dangerous Scottish woman who said it and not the genius Tories who said it first, and now they’ll say that’s not what she said so shut up Scottish people and please go away so we can just get on with running London, I mean England, Oh, I mean you other folk as well
Bloody Jocks always wanting to be included in English business (sigh)
Whatever deal is done we wont learn from the MSM everything will be coming up roses. The truth will follow much later.
Dr Jim, doesn’t the Norway model mean accepting freedom of movement? Now, 3,000 miles of ocean may blur things a bit for me, but wasn’t that a major reason why people voted leave?
I have felt since the vote that Brexit wouldn’t happen. It seems that, in essence, the Brexit negotiating team is working towards that. How courageous.
Maybe they will do a Norway initially, but dress it up as a ‘phased withdrawal’ on a long timetable to appease the anti immigration crew.
i.e. punt it into the long grass for a future government to deal with, by which time they hope people will have cooled off.
mogabee @ 9.33am
Thank goodness the EU is making all the negotiations public because I do not trust the UK gov. one iota.
and to coin a phrase “they’ll be doing it deliberately” Lol
I think Scotland has many friends in Europe – and we’re going to need them – soon.
muscleguy,
That’s great. Home from home for you.
I rushed out to peer longingly into the depths of my monstrous clump but to no avail. Still it did prompt me to take some scissors to a lot of manky leaves (more handy plant ties).
Off-topic:
Rev says he’s on holiday but it’s probably still worth mentioning here. Maybe it’s the heat that’s got to Kirsty Strickland?
https://twitter.com/KirstyStricklan/status/876673026242334720
One journalist making a tweet like that I can put down to a mistake on her part, does anyone happen to know if she has access to the WomenForIndy twitter as well though?
https://twitter.com/WomenForIndy/status/876719505799565312
Right from the moment the 52/48 leave result was announced, and Cameron capitulated to the Leavers, I have wondered how the Tories would swing it.
OK, the right wing of the Tory party, the old-fashioned Empire Loyalists, the hang ’em and flog ’em, no blacks wing seemed to be in charge, but, always, the City of London, what is left of British industry and those big American corporations who had used England as their European base were agin leaving. Since these guys were the Tory party’s paymasters, I wondered how the party could swing things to keep them happy.
I certainly never saw the absolute bollox the Tories would make of things – but over-promoting the hopeless May was never a good sign.
Now, they will, somehow, cobble together a deal which suits “the suits”, but this will be bad news for us “Sweaties”.
Getting Scotland out of this Union and able to decide our own future and how we deal with Europe has never been more important.
We have to TELL the Tories and Labour – Indyref2 is still on the table, Independence is still our goal. Because since you have had 310 years to give us a fair deal and never have, we don’t think you ever will, thus, we are leaving.
Just listened to that GMS interview with Catherine Stihler and (soon to be Lord ) Ian Duncan MEP. Who does SLab’s media training? Stihler’s answers were painful, tremulous, fractious and she constantly talked past the point.
Ian Duncan really needs his adenoids seen to, some serious mouth breathing going on. Otherwise, he seems to assume Brexit is going to be a walk in the park. Shades of David Davis arrogance.
Inkall
What did K Strikland say in her tweet? I can’t access it.
Seems Kirsty Stricklan has seen some sense and deleted her tweet about the incident at Finsbury Park being “Male Violence”.
Hopefully that WomenForIndy account will do the same.
Thought folks might want to see this – I think it is a Labour leaning site – sort of.
https://leftfootforward.org/2017/06/what-does-the-eu-want-from-the-brexit-negotiations/
I don’t think it is meant to be satire but…..
”Large parts of the country are essentially already on fire.”
I’ve been watching the latest news on the terrorist attack in London last night. The situation is at boiling point in London (areas all over England) with the potential for riots to break out to the point that the Police would be unable to deal with it. Reporters have been asking people what can be done about it. One individual after another has been saying that the MSM has a great deal to answer for due to creating divisions and scapegoating Muslims, foreigners in general. One Muslim man outlined NUMEROUS extremely positive experiences where Muslims, Christians and Jews etc have been coming together that hasn’t been reported by the BBC and so on. Will the Government take this onboard and do something about it before England implodes?
@Brian Powell
“Kirsty S? @KirstyStricklan 5 hours ago
There is one common denominator between all these horrific terrorist attacks. Male violence.
#FinsburyPark”
Far from the most terrible tweet ever but a bloody daft thing to say.
Iain @ 9.40. Same here in the Badajoz region of Spain, 40°+ atm!
Heard Ian Duncan Vs Gary Robertson on GMS today – now I get it.
Ian Duncan quits MEP (prevents conflict of interest), is made a Lord, becomes the Vice-Fluffy, gets a seat with the UK negociating team in Brexit talks, is pronounced as the Scotland representative.
Hey! Presto! Scotland has a seat. What could be better?
The start of Independence day, yah who, Scottish jobs for Scottish born workers, close the border for 5 years chuck out the non brits as soon as their out of work. Bring on protectionism look after us first. If we fall off the cliff well great we will ensure that the 3 million EU citizens keep our jobs god its good to be a Brit is this day and age, second class people in our own country. Funny thing the EU it was not that long ago they told us we were not welcome(2014) remember guys they don’t care about us we are cannon fodder. Role on hardest brexit possible I did not vote to be half in half out, all out for me.
Shinty wrote on 19 June, 2017 at 11:00 am
“Thank goodness the EU is making all the negotiations public because I do not trust the UK gov. one iota.”
SNP, please take note, this is exactly how you negotiate with London. Not stuck in some room with a bunch of its reprobate gophers and their pompous Lord leader who will then relay your demands second-hand via the phone.
You do it face to face in the public eye, no gophers allowed – especially servants such as Mundell and Davidson (big boys & girls only) and you remain in control at all times. And if you have to tell them to take-a-hike you make sure it’s done in no uncertain terms.
Those who enter negotiations prepared to walk straight back out again are those who hold all the power. It’s nice to be nice but don’t ever forget, Scotland holds all the cards. You never sit on the floor when dealing with a rabid and aggressive dog.
For once the weather hype isn’t hype.
Topped out at 33.6C here in Leics, not quite the 34.4C we saw in May but bloody hot all the same. Currently 29.7C but clouding over so humidity is increasing rapidly. These are temps measured in the shade by our back door.
Seems to be the norm these days, we’ve had temperatures above 34C every year since 2012, prior to that anything above 32C was pretty rare.
Every month this year (bar January) has been between 1.8-2.9C above the Central England Temperature averages for 1971-2000.
Whatever we’ve done to the planet seems to be accelerating at a rate of knots 🙁
A woman May (Tories) has some responsibility for the situation. The Tory right wing Party has let the extreme racist, facist, elements on their Party take over. Brexit, If May and the Tories do not go soon it will continue. They extreme right wing element in the Party (+ Farague) have caused the conflict and fanned the fire. Austerity. Labour/Unionists encouraged the Tories. Abstained or voted the measures through at every turn. When Cameron could have been defeated. Angela Eagles (supports Trident) decided to start an infight in the Labour/Unionist Party instead. Feeding her ego that she or someone else should be leader against the members wishes for choice of leader. Arrogant and manipulatory.
Woman politicians were involve in the Leave campaign. There were ignorant, arrogant people involved at every level. Liars who manipulate and flouted Democracy Woman MP’s voted for the illegal wars. Killing women and children. Women MP’s have voted it through. Although there are less of them. They support Trident and vote for it when vulnerable people are sanctioned and starved. Austerity attacks the vulnerable, disabled, woman and children disproportionately. The carers. 87% ? of those affected the most are women and children. Woman voted it through. The people most likely to be in poverty are elderly women who live longer than men. Denied pension rights for various illegitimate reasons.
The right wing of the Tory/Unionist Party protected Farague and encouraged him. He was defrauding, embezzling public money for years. The Tory grandees protected and encouraged him. They are still protecting him now.
Phil on 19 June, 2017 at 11:30 am
Hence all the guff in previous week or two from tRuthless & Mundell about Tories elected at the General Election will only represent ‘No’ voters and their interests etc.
The SNP should object in the strongest terms possible, if that’s what happens, that Duncan (or whoever) is not representative of the vast majority of Scotland’s electorate when it comes to the issue of the European Union etc.
Anyway, i’ve got my copious supply of Skittles and Scottish Blend at the ready, let the show commence!
Rev
… but there is no correlation Sir.
Huge swathes of London and the south central parts of England (where many more millions live than in the whole of Scotland) voted “Remain” – to a similarly decisive level as Scotland overall.
If “coolness” is a measure of intelligence, insight and thoughtfulness – then the map should be adjusted to show the part of England where I live as being at least as cool as Scotland, which is somewhat at odds to the accepted wisdom, as these areas constitute what many describe as the “Tory Shires”.
Its all a lot more complicated than the suggestion your article infers Sir.
What the actual f__k? Listening to Radio 2 with Ed Milliband presenting a show. BBC still a charitable care facility for retired Labour Party has beens?
What happened to the good old days when people had to have equity cards, objectivity, and indeed a modicum of talent to get a cushy job on the Propaganda Channel? I want my Propaganda from a professional propagandist, not some loser who makes his living from public money.
Better get on topic now. I hear clumpity clump of hammers… Unless that’s Ed droppin’ the mic.
That map above looks spot on. Apparently France is pretty keen on Brexit too. Who knew???
If and when the Brexit talks come to an end, the whole of Scotland will be clambering for an escape route.
Which is why the SNP are laid back about a date for the second referendum.
Just sit back and watch the Brexit talks implode. Or should I say go up in a ball of flames?
Michel Barnier Article 50 negotiations with the United Kingdom
1st phase of negotiations will tackle 3 main areas: safeguarding the rights of citizens; financial settlement of the UK’s obligations and the new external borders of the EU.
video here
http://ec.europa.eu/avservices/video/player.cfm?ref=I140378
The EU has a BREXIT website so we should be able to read all about it without filtering through Westminster.:
https://ec.europa.eu/info/departments/taskforce-article-50-negotiations-united-kingdom_en
The Party that the majority in Scotland voted for will be cut out of any negotiations? How will that work. When the majority in Scotland/UK want to stay in the EU full membership It will break EU/Internstional Law, which the EU is committed to upheld. Including for Scottish citizens It would be declared void and illegal under EU Law. Any agreement would not hold up, in Law. Including Scottish Law which has to be kept separate forever under the terms of the Act of Union agreement. Otherwise without agreement the Union is abolished. The terms can’t be changed without agreement between Scottish and English representatives.
It will bring Independence in EU (full) Even closer. The SNP Scottish Gov will do their own separate negotiations with the EU Officials. Otherwise it would be declared null and void under ECHR which all member States have to agree to and adhere.
An IndyRef must be held quite soon. To maintain the full rights of people in Scotland and their right to chose. Not be dragged out of the EU against their will.
“There is no correlation sir”.
Wrong again. England voted by 53% to 46% to leave. Very distinct correlation in actual fact. That you Kezia?
Re Ian Duncan, MEP.
The reward for failure in UK politics is usually promotion or ennoblement. Because of this you can see more Liberal Democrats in the House of Lords than you are ever likely to encounter in normal company.
From the racist xenophobic country that voted to dig a hole and throw itself in
we get the Troll telling us what the “Accepted wisdom” is
Makes you wonder if these folk say these things out loud before they write them, and more to the point can they hear themselves
@Andy.D says: 19 June, 2017 at 11:41 am:
Idiot alert!
Idiot alert!
Idiot alert!
Walking on Sunshine
One would hope so but judging by reactions to so much recently, where I would think there is enough to start a revolution, all I hear is Scottish sheep going baaa and chewing bit more grass.
We make a big deal of the cancelling of the old Tory Council tax, but it was the riots in London that actually stopped it.
Walking on Sunshine wrote on 19 June, 2017 at 12:28 pm
“If and when the Brexit talks come to an end, the whole of Scotland will be clambering for an escape route.”
Don’t be surprised if there’s a ‘Brexit exit’ (aka; stalling) before it even gets started. I’m away to feed the birds in the sun.
😉
Even if it ends up a new Scottish Tory Lord and Ruth Davidson speaking for Scotland at the Brexit talks, I expect little more than a bit more baaing from Scots.
@sensibledave says: 19 June, 2017 at 12:21 pm:
Sensibledave’s usual pish.
In a democracy the whole country makes up the majority.
The United KINGDOM is not a country.
Petra 11:18 am
You wrote “The situation is at boiling point in London (areas all over England) with the potential for riots to break out to the point that the Police would be unable to deal with it.”
Petra, there are nut jobs all around us. Some are Islamic Fundamentalists, some are middle aged Caucasians, some are Celtic supporters.
Your comment has the whiff of a “desire” for things to “explode” – because you think it may help you politically? Really?
Here in England, the vast majority will keep calm and carry on, just as we always do. Doubtless “rentamob” lefties will continue to attach themselves to any passing cause where they see political capital might be gained.
Meanwhile, our ordinary English citizens will detain attempted murderers using minimal force and then hand them over to the authorities having caused the minimum amount of harm to them.
That Petra, is what my country is about, regardless of whatever a bunch of nut jobs may seek to do – be they fundamentalists, political activists or even potential rioters that might smash shop windows to get a “free” telly.
Maybe a few more nut jobs may attempt to draw a different picture – but they will not succeed in the end.
@Stoker says: 19 June, 2017 at 12:49 pm:
“I’m away to feed the birds in the sun.”
Hopefully you’re not feeding the birds to the local cats.
meh, global warming, I’m all for it
scotland a feww degrees warmer….. whats not to like:)
Lifted off Twitter… Not new, but priceless.
Replying to @davidallengreen
EU lays down a royal flush. UK looks at own cards: Mr Bun the Baker, Pikachu, a Shadowmage, a fireball spell, and the Fool.”
@Capella 12:34
So Old Maid Theresa, the human Enigma machine, is keeping her negotiating positions Top Secret, while the EU has a dedicated website to provide the World with a rolling commentary on what’s happening in the Brexit negotiations. Excellent.
I like this man Barnier. His sense of humour appeals to me.
Ken509 says:
19 June, 2017 at 9:19 am
…
Independence campaign etc.Democratic. … Voted for by the majority of voters in Scotland.
Glad to hear that you accept the result of the independence referendum.
Robert Peffers;
Spotted, sir, and I for one am proud of the restraint shown by all wingers who are scrolling on past. One would hope a heart could become as soft as a brain in certain circumstances.
Peace, Love and Respect Sensai Peffers
We must be getting close to the disuniting of the United Kingdom. The usual suspects have arrived in force on Wings very early today to defend their despicable union.
You can always tell when we are doing something right when these numpties arrive in numbers to defend their despicable union. I like to see it for it means we are doing enough to worry them.
Sometimes Wings comments can get a bit like a Orange Order March. Which one do you think has the big drum and which one has wasted their time practicing twirling the stick?
Robert Peffers 12:53 pm
You wrote “In a democracy the whole country makes up the majority. The United KINGDOM is not a country.”
… the Usual irrelevant guff from you Mr Peffers. The EUreferendum was a UK wide referendum that gave equal rights to every UK citizen in the constituencies that make up the United Kingdom Parliament at Westminster (which Scots voted to remain part of and, based upon the most recent information available, they haven’t changed their mind). There is no “regionality” effect of the results of UK referendum as you, quite rightly, point out at the drop of a hat (which is why South Oxfordshire will Brexit together with Scotland – even though a majority in both of the regions/areas/countries voted Remain (contrary to the Rev’s map).
Please ask of you would like further lessons on the UK constitution and democracy in action, my mission, as always, is to educate and inform.
Who decided it covered the whole country I voted in a Scottish referendum The UK is two countries a Principality and a province. Everybody knows that.
Robert Peffers @ 1.07
I think yer right Robert….but look and don’t touch eh!
There’s a dignified satisfaction in that don’t ye think?
It will be fun to see despiration kick in.
That’s information I would be interested in being informed of?
Just imagine the EU Ref where the vote in Scotland had just managed to keep England (who had voted to Leave) IN the EU. Do you think the people of England would accept such an outcome had it come to pass?
Like fuck they would. Scotland (and rUK) must never interfere in the political wishes of England (I give you EVEL as proof). If anyone here thinks otherwise they are fucking delusional.
If this had been a UK vote to Remain and England had voted Leave, we’d be leaving. Don’t effing kid yourselves.
Crime is a gender issue. Most (violent) is committed by men. Women do not commit much crime. They are the victims. An average of 100 are killed each year by violent men. Men are four times more likely to be killed by other males. On average 400 killed each year. Psychological. Most (violent) crime is committed by (16) 18 to 24 year old males against each other, while under the influence of drink or drugs. Drink/drug abuse/addiction. is a main cause of crime. Car accidents. Death on the roads. 18 to 25 years old (10%) cause 25% of accidents. Women are more likely to internalise stress etc.and get depressed. Men are more likely to get angry and lash out. Externalise stress and feelings. Financial power and dominance can be used as an illegitimate form of control.
Total abstinence, proper rehab counselling is cheaper and more cost effective than prison.
What happened to minimum pricing? It could help the SNHS and public services. Save public money. The Unionists would not agree. It did go through the courts and was agreed.
Do not respond to trolls. They are trying to wreak the thread and ruin the site. Do not let them.
Phil Robertson,
Surely you don’t begrudge the Scottish People clarifying their position regarding Scotland’s place in this new political world?
Sensibledave,
I see you can’t help visiting a Scottish political website even though you have no opinion on Scottish politics as you’ve written on here before.
@Robert Peffers
“We must be getting close to the disuniting of the United Kingdom. The usual suspects have arrived in force on Wings very early today to defend their despicable union.”
It seems more than coincidental to me that when the Scottish Social Attitudes Survey (Prof Curtice et al) was published in March showing a clear lead for independence over the Union that May suddenlt decided in April to have a GE.
Sensibledave,
As you’re handing out lessons on the UK constitution and democracy. Could you tell me when Scotland can have an independence referendum?
The UK Govt hand is weaker than ever.
This is the time for the ScotGovt to increase the pressure. Insist again Scotland can negotiate its EU / Single Market place
or
Scotland will have a referendum seeking the democratic mandate that the Scottish Govt represents the Scottish part of the UK in Brexit negotiations.
If the ScotGovt is given that mandate the UK Govt cannot refuse that ScotGovt mandate. To refuse it would be to refuse Scottish democracy.
To refuse that Scottish democratic mandate would probably hasten the end of the Union.
@Ken500 says: 19 June, 2017 at 1:32 pm:
“Do not respond to trolls. They are trying to wreak the thread and ruin the site. Do not let them.”
Oh! Talk some sense, Ken500.
Pay attention to how things work out. The disruption to threads doesn’t come from a single reply that hits a nail on the head but from the several posts from other Wingers all telling everyone else to not respond to the trolls.
There is usually rather more, “Don’t respond to trolls”, disruption than there is from a single, to the point, response that makes a point and here is me pointlessly replying to you for telling me not to respond to trolls – Are you getting the message. Ken500?
Phil Robertson says:
19 June, 2017 at 12:59 pm
“Glad to hear that you accept the result of the independence referendum.”
Everybody accepted that result Phil, otherwise there’d have been a UDI or revolution in 2014. We were robbed, we were cheated, we were betrayed, but the odious result was accepted; accepted, but respected by neither betrayed YES voters nor the liars and cheats who betrayed them. Nothing was settled, no issue or grievance laid to rest.
That 2014 result was based upon vows and commitments which were false, falsehoods that were never honoured, and the result itself became fully and formally obsolete once the Brexit Referendum was held, and doubly obsolete when that referendum was lost in England but firmly won in Scotland.
Face it Phil, the only reason Unionism clings so desperately to the 2014 result is because the sheer volume and quantity of bullshit, lies and propaganda required to win in 2014 was on such a cathedral-like magnitude and scale that make it very unlikely to be repeated. Unionism won the vote, but completely sold out its integrity to do so, and the Unionist box of tricks looks pretty bare and shabby for ScotRef doesn’t it?
Unionists fixate on the 2014 YES referendum the way England fixates on the 1966 World Cup. It’s old news but all you’ve got to crow about.
Ken500 1:32 pm
You wrote “Do not respond to trolls. They are trying to wreak the thread and ruin the site. Do not let them.”
OMG Ken! Is your commitment, and others here on Wings, so bloody fragile that if someone “disrupts” the thread , by expressing an alternative view point (often one that is supported by a majority of the Scottish electorate), they are a Troll and are “banned” reading? 1984 and all that eh Ken.
Petra argued that my country is at “boiling point” (does Petra live in ENgland?) and I argued a different point of view and that makes me a Troll.
Maybe people should have to have comments passed by a committee of your design before they are published Ken – then you could have the totalitarianism you seem to seek?
@Breeks
“Unionists fixate on the 2014 YES referendum the way England fixates on the 1966 World Cup. It’s old news but all you’ve got to crow about.”
Are you saying the Russians interfered in the 2014 ref as well? 🙂
“Your comment has the whiff of a “desire” for things to “explode” – because you think it may help you politically. Really?”
Sensibledave your comment has all the hallmarks, whiff, of an unstable, nasty wee man (or woman) trying to brainwash people. Your country clearly needs you. Instead of wasting your time on here focus on trying to do something constructive for your ain place. Something that might help to make it more attractive for those who don’t want to be part of the Union.
Uh huh.
You know, today of all days, we really don’t need the distractions IMV.
The politics of the UK is in chaos. Full on, full tilt, train wreck mode. The UKs populations and society are fractured beyond obvious means of repair. There is very real economic misery, depression and hardship wherever you look, and this in a 21st century union awash with wealth. The priorities of the Westminster system of government have never been more transparent, or more exposed. What they themselves have done to the populations of the UK, never more apparent.
So make a choice on who you’d rather spend your time reading or talking to.
If there are those who cause you distress when reading, please walk on by and look for a familiar and friendlier face. Look to where you’ll find a warm welcome, an intelligent and reasoned comment or insight. Or mibbies just a silly joke or a kind word when the world is caving in around you.
Life’s too short and we’re too damn busy trying to get through it in one piece.
Leave any policing to the author. If you don’t like the cut of a poster, then move on as soon as you see the name. A couple of comments is all it takes to size someone up in your own opinion as worth your time or not. Find friends and faces you can talk to, or take informed comment from and above all…
… ensure you enjoy the experience.
Most folk here are friends or friendly (shouty fallouts among said friends aside) and the vast majority want exactly the same thing. To make where we live a better, more sustainable, peaceful, ‘strong and stable???’ (cough) place for everyone. A nation where fully empowered government puts food on the table. I reckon we’re capable of that.
Not a complicated wish list tbh, but I’m not a complicated guy and that idea suits me just peachy.
Right! Get on with your reading then. ?
@Ken500
Sources for all those stats on crime & violence ?
One for Risible…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nox57hdgeAU
@Macart
Agreed, here’s some reading material
http://indyref2.scot/the-brexit-fallacy
Scotland: What Strategy as Brexit Talks Get Under Way?
https://www.scer.scot/database/ident-2191
https://constitution-unit.com/2017/06/19/evel-wont-worry-the-new-government-but-the-west-lothian-question-may-well-do/
https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/11193/gillian-martin-independence-supporters-ignore-north-east-your-peril
Herald comment:
If the majority in Scotland want to remain in the EU or Single Market then why should they be dragged out because England and Wales voted Leave?
Scotland isn’t forcing England and Wales to Remain. Westminster should not force Scotland to leave.
It’s supposed to be a partnership of equals, not domination by Westminster. From the start of the Union, it was clearly established, Scotland is not the same as England and those differences are to be respected.
Hence we had the Articles in the Union that highlighted Scots Law and the Church of Scotland cannot be abolished. Of course there was no EU / Single Market membership then.
However, nowadays there is. Scotland’s democratic will must be respected.
This is not yet about “Should Scotland be an independent country?”
This is about: Should Scotland’s democratic will be respected within the Union?
Of course it should. Scotland has sovereignty within the Union: it must be respected.
If Scotland wants to remain in the Single Market, that desire should be respected and accommodated in the negotiations.
If it isn’t , then it becomes more than a matter about the EU.
It then becomes: Scotltish democracy has been snubbed.
For those that believe in the benefits of the Union. Then surely they recognise that snubbing Scottish sovereignty within the Union will only drive Scotland to leave the Union.
@sensibledave
Petra, there are nut jobs all around us. Some are Islamic Fundamentalists, some are middle aged Caucasians, some are Celtic supporters.
Wow, what a poor wee soul, you trying to upset the Aberdeen FC loving Rev even more?
Even the weather, try 45 for a month or two Londoners, in SEE is considered national not regional ‘news’. Therein lies the existential issue we often face as a country and nation. Marginalization. There is a point when what happens in London should cease to score on our ‘care-ometer’. It’s, whatever it might be, that region’s problem not ours, a foreign matter. There is certainly nothing that we can contribute. We have concerns of our own which even in the best of times receive short shrift from that part of the ‘United Kingdom’.
Petra 1:49 pm
You wrote “Sensibledave your comment has all the hallmarks, whiff, of an unstable, nasty wee man (or woman) trying to brainwash people. Your country clearly needs you. Instead of wasting your time on here focus on trying to do something constructive for your ain place.
Sorry Petra, were you expecting unquestioning acceptance of your scaremongering and insulting guff about my country. Are you so entrenched that you cannot see the base, insulting nature of your comments and, I repeat, a barely hidden desire for your imaginings to come to fruition so that you can gain a political advantage?
Generally speaking Petra, ordinary folk in England are exactly the same as ordinary folk in Scotland and are no more, or less, likely to break the law of the land. Any suggestion otherwise is wrong Petra.
It could be that we have more agitating lefties that look to cause trouble and division though – that’s the way lefties tend to operate.
Are we out yet?
Just askin’.
Desimond 2.28
You wrote “Wow, what a poor wee soul, you trying to upset the Aberdeen FC loving Rev even more?
Why on earth would the Rev, or anyone else, take exception to my comment?
Breastplate 1:41 pm
You wrote “As you’re handing out lessons on the UK constitution and democracy. Could you tell me when Scotland can have an independence referendum?”
As I understand it Breastplate, the Scottish Government passed a vote to ask for another referendum – but Ms Sturgeon no longer seems to want to say whether she actually wants a referendum or when she would want to hold one – so the question is moot.
@2.58
Yawn.
Here’s another link to keep us up to date with Brexit negotiations
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/brexit-negotiations_en
Will be interesting to see whats left out by the BBC etc!
A glance back into recent history. I found this 2012 speech by Nicola Sturgeon on why Scotland should be an independent nation. How remarkably prescient she was.
Relevant then – relevant today:
http://www.gov.scot/News/Speeches/better-nation-031212
Hi sensibledave,
Could you provide a print out the UK constitution you referenced, here on Wings, so we can all be informed.
And Oblige
Scotland must not be dragged out of the single market by Westminser’s arrogance, ignorance and incompetence. I believe Europe knows the difference between Scotland and England. Scotland has friends in Europe; Scotland has no friends in britnat Westminster.
I hope the EU sticks the knife into rancid Westminster.
Northern Ireland a province? it’s a bit of somebody else’s province!
Velofello 3.16
… which bit is it you don’t understand? Is it the bits about the UK Parliament where all constituencies across the UK elect an MP to represent them at Westminster. Then, each MP, in a one man one vote way, gets to vote for or against a proposition. This means that each constituency representative has exactly the same potential influence as any other.
It doesn’t matter which constituency they represent, they are all treated equally in terms of voting in Parliament and democracy rules.
The UK Parliament has representatives from Scotland, Wales, NI and England. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland all have devolved powers to make laws or be responsible for some areas of government and where only representatives of that country can vote – other than in England. Laws that only affect England have to be passed by a majority of the whole UK Parliament including Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland MPs.
How’s that for starters?
It really does give the BritNat Establishment nightmares…
http://imgur.com/a/ZA2gT
Let’s make our dream come true and make their nightmare real.
Apparently the EU negotiator, Michel Barnier, gave David Davis are welcoming present in Paris today: a walking stick. [Davis gave a book].
TO K1 if you are about
Dan Huil above wrote “I hope the EU sticks the knife into rancid Westminster”.
Would I be being overly sensitive if interpreted that statement as the very lovely Dan Huil wishing ill will on the Parliament that governs me? Would I be wrong to interpret that statement as wishing a bad outcome from the negotiations for my fellow country folk – because he believes it will aid his political objectives?
I know, I am over-thinking things again K1!
We’re off to a slow start if they’re both in Paris? LOL
Today the Brexit negos begin and the trolls have been sent out in force to negate, deflect, stir-up, break-up threads, anything to try and save the necks of their masters in London.
Tickety, tickety, tickety clock… 🙂
C’mon Sensibledave,
I was so looking forward to a Tory with a superiority complex instructing us Scots if and when we could have an independence referendum.
I think it’s just dawning on britnats what a disgusting mess they’ve made – and it will only get worse. Thankfully Scotland has a chance to break away from this britnat disaster. Britnats have only themselves to blame.
@sensibledave 1.46pm
“… – then you could have the totalitarianism you seem to seek?”
You’re surely not suggesting that there could be people on this site who try to promote censorship, curtail free speech, abuse dissidents and forbid criticism of the ruling party.
Nana, jings ! My money is on Michael – oor Dave looks slightly daft!
https://munguin.wordpress.com/2017/06/18/a-laugh-to-end-the-weekend/#comments
Serious question.
Brexit talks have officially begun, so officially, what part is Scotland playing in them? Are we at the table or at the keyhole?
Glamaig said at 3:06 pm:
“Here’s another link to keep us up to date with Brexit negotiations
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/brexit-negotiations_en
Will be interesting to see whats left out by the BBC etc! ”
Thanks a lot for this—the EU stance from an EU perspective without the news filtration by the BBC and others. 🙂
Definitely one for the Favourites/Bookmarks
Recommended
Robert Peffers says:
19 June, 2017 at 12:53 pm
“In a democracy the whole country makes up the majority.”
Gibberish – the whole country is not the majority – it is the majority and the minority.
“The United KINGDOM is not a country.”
I think that you will find that it is.
@Jack Murphy 4:32pm [and others].
Aye, that EU/brexit website will be the one to read, not the biased bbc one.
Capella @ 3.16 pm
From Ms Sturgeon’s speech in 2012:
“”A country with a stable economy that works for the many and not just the few;…””
Now where have we heard that recently?
So it was not just the SNP policies they copied into their manifesto.
Michele Barnier has 27 countries to consider.
Davies only has one – England.
Phil,
I think that you’ll find that it isn’t
Aweright Dan Huil ~
Aye, ah heard about the gift exchanges between Barnier and Davis. Radio person said Barnier gave Davis a ‘hiking stick’.
Ahhhhh ha ha ha… ye can read into that readers..
Take a hike you nasty Tories!
The United Kingdom is not a country. It is a union combining the kingdoms of Scotland et England + a principality and province.
Ye cannae have a country within a country, doh.
Happy Brexit Day!
Hurrah!
“The United KINGDOM is not a country.”
I think that you will find that it is.
So why do Scots have the sovereign right to say bye bye to England then, in this “country” Phil Robertson?
Its a funny kind of country, when near half of it can tell the other half, thanks very much but we would like Scotland to become a nation state again, if that’s alright with you.
Which clearly it is certainly not.
So here’s to you Philip Robertson, Jesus loves you more than you will know but the yew kay is not a country.
If England is in for another summer riot season like the last one, Teresa Mayhem wont go but she will have to bring in UN Blue Helmet peace keepers.
I posted this on the previous post by mistake. Here it is again, somewhat modified.
It does not seem to me so bad that Mundell now accepts an Indyref taking place in 2021, after the Scottish Holyrood elections.
He used to trot out the old ‘once in a generation’ argument, didn’t he? That means that Mundell, and all his ilk, now accept that ‘a generation’ can be once every 7 years. That’s m lot shorter time-frame than what he was previously saying.
So let’s take it – i.e. record it – (for now). And hold him to it – (for ever).
He did not even say that Indyref2 was impossible before 2021, just that he could not envisage any ‘circumstances’ in which it could take place before then. Because, he said, that would mean holding it before the Scottish people knew the terms of Brexit.
Once again, a give-away on the part of Mr. Mundell. We should be grateful – a genuine freebie! He has just told us the UK’s newly cooked strategy. Namely, they have no intention of concluding the Brexit negotiations until just before the 2021 elections in Scotland.
We may also be sure that if the polling in Scotland at that point in time (2021) looks bad for them and their fellow Brexiteers, and positive for Indy, the Tories will attempt to prolong the negotiations even further. In that ‘circumstance’, they will try to ensure that the final terms of the Brexit deal are not known until AFTER the Scottish elections of 2021. This will, they hope, minimise the effect of the deal on that election, in which the Scottish Unionist Parties will combine to prevent the SNP forming the next Scottish government.
All this presumes soemthing that will never happen, however. It presumes that the EU will tamely go along with this dastardly plan, and acquiesce in it.
But why should the EU do any such thing? Would it not have to change its own rules to do so?
My understanding – someone please correct me if I am wrong – is that there is a time limit on how long a leaving member can negotiate its exit deal. I can’t remember the exact period that is laid down – was it 18 months? Or two years? Anyway, as far as I remember, it was not more than that.
So the terms of the Brexit deal will be known by 2019, at the latest, as Nicola S has continually pointed out. And that is why she wants Indyref2 at that point in time. The chancers – even within the SNP – who are now trumpeting this point as if it was they who invented it, when Nicola has been saying it all along, must be – well – not much more than that: just chancers!
Nicola’s temporarily self-imposed silence is drawing them out of the woodwork – these chancers – so everyone can see them for what they are. And she does not even have to say a word – not even a word of criticism. And ostensible good relations can be fully maintained. But I am sure she is taking note …. Always good to know who is really with you, and who might not be … And good to let them identify themselves … the simplest way, in fact.
Now, to return to the point: Would all 27 EU nations unanimously agree to let the UK drag its feet interminably on the negotiations?
For something that UK unionists see as profitable to them, but which brings the EU nothing?
Why should the EU change its rules just to suit some internal agenda of some UK political faction(s) – the UK unionist Parties – when it profits the EU nothing? Or nothing much, at least.
The EU negotiators might even perceive that agenda as contrary to their own EU interests. Instead of encouraging Scotland to remain in the UK they might very well prefer to give Scotland the chance of benefits that would encourage her to leave the UK and stay on course for becoming a full member of the EU, in her own right.
Even without that consideration, I can’t imagine the likes of France just rolling over and allowing the UK’s BritNat Brexiteers to carry on their political game-playing indefinitely, for no purpose that would be to the EU’s advantage. Aren’t they more likely to hold the UK government to account, and to the timetable it set for itself, by its own volition, when it freely triggered the Brexit process in March 2017.
Hasn’t the EU suffered enough delay as it is. Don’t forget David Cameron promised to trigger Brexit the day after the referendum if Leave won the day … And, lo and behold, it took 9 months to reach ‘the day after …’ The EU is not going to hang around for ever.
Indeed, I can imagine France insisting that the foreseen time-frame be strictly adhered to. And if the UK does not like it, or fails to reach agreement within the time marked out, it will just have to leave without any deal at all.
After all, why should France worry about a ‘no deal’ result being contrary to the best interests of the UK? As Mr. Hammond so candidly admitted it would be on television on Sunday …
No deal for the UK might even be a very good deal for France, and for some other European countries as well. And the UK could not complain that France is being unfair if that is the outcome. It was the UK that triggered Brexit, not France. And Mrs May knew the rules very well (including the timetable) when she did so.
‘You did not manage it on time – well, sorry chum, stuff you!’ Feet-draggers, beware!
Make no mistake about it (and we Scots should be under no illusions in that regard either) France will do whatever is in France’s own best interests. French politicians play for France, not for the UK. (And not for Scotland either, by the way – we pride ourselves on the Auld Alliance, but it’s so auld the French forgot about it, long ago!)
I cannot imagine any ‘circumstance’ in which all 27 EU member states are going to play ball with the UK’s revised and extended timetable. The one which our dear Mr. Mundell has so kindly revealed – no one will know the deal till 2021 – just to help the UK with its own little local difficulties (with Scotland, or whatever).
No way! Contrary to Mr Mundell’s and the Tory strategists’ fantasies, that is not what the Brexit negotiations are about. Not for any of the EU member states, that is. Let the UK solve its own problems – this is about gaining economic and political advantages. For the EU, not for the UK.
And that brings me to a final point.
Why are all the UK Unionist Parties, along with their loyal Scottish collaborators, so desperate to get the SNP to drop Indyref2? And to drop it not just from the table, but even from the horizon? Which horizon, you may well ask?
The horizon of the Brexit negotiations with the EU.
They don’t want potential Scottish independence as a backdrop to what they are negotiating. They don’t even want it as distant background music. The EU negotiators are neither to see it – not even a glimpse – nor hear tell of it, not even a whisper. And the only way to ensure that is to get the SNP themselves to take it off the agenda.
The Unionists – in unison, all three Parties together – know Indyref2 will happen some time (even within 7 years according to Mundell’s predictions) but they want it to be a purely internal UK matter. Above all, it is to have nothing whatever to do with the Brexit negotiations. The last thing they want is for Indyref2 to loom over, or in any way influence, the deal they hope to make with the EU.
That in itself should be warning enough. They are determined that the outcome of the negotiations will make it very much harder for Scots to choose independence. They seem to want to decouple the two issues, but the contrary is true. The real (Tory) objective is to obtain not only the Brexit deal that they want but also to ensure it is the kind of deal that makes future Scottish independence virtually impossible.
The two objectives are intrinsically linked in their minds.
The trouble for them (not just the Tories but all the Unionist-and-Leave Parties) is that they cannot remove Indyref2 from the table / horizon / backdrop (whatever you want to call it) on their own initiative, for and by themselves.
They have to get the SNP to do it for them. That is why they are incessantly braying for the SNP to do this, and putting up all kinds of spurious arguments about the GE result to make it seem as if this would be in the SNP’s best interest, which it clearly would not, or even that they are obliged to do so. hence all the nonsense about Ruth winning the election!
If the SNP do remove Indyref2 from the agenda themselves, they will be snookered, and the Unionists will have got exactly what they want. If that happens, the potential prospect (or specter) of Scottish independence will indeed disappear from the Brexit negotiations altogether. Exactly what the Unionists want. The EU negotiators will have no option but to ignore it altogether.
But if Indyref2 remains on the table, it will be an elephant in the room that they are unable to avoid.
In that case, the prospect that Scotland might well become an independent country at the end of the Brexit process, that in that case it will seek a closer relationship with the EU than the rest of the UK, even up to the point of full membership, will play a significant role in the negotiations.
If, by contrast, the UK unionists themselves take positive action to remove the prospect of Indyref2, they know – and their EU negotiating partners will be very well aware – that they are acting in an undemocratic fashion towards Scotland. The key Scottish objective of those who called GE 2017 was to decimate the SNP, thereby demonstrating that there was no mandate for Indyref2, no matter what the Scottish parliament (and the SNP’s 2016 Holyrood manifesto) had said. It backfired: the SNP won in Scotland, and no doubt about it. Hence all the false propaganda pretending that they lost.
The UK government know that With Indyref 2 on the table at the end of the Brexit talks, and with Scotland thereby a potential member of the EU, even the EU negotiators will have a keen eye for protecting Scotland’s interests. Whatever is in Scotland’s interest could easily be perceived as being in the EU’s interest, as well. And the EU might seek to encourage Scotland to become a fully European independent country, even directing aspects of the negotiations in that line.
To be fair to the English Brexiteers, you can see why – politically speaking – they don’t want pro-Indy Scottish involvement in the negotiations. From their perspective, that is like inviting in a third column. One, of course, which they see as seeking to protect Scotland’s interests instead of England’s, or even at the expense of England’s (which these English Brexiteers identify with those of the whole of the UK).
Such is the fear. And a fear that lashes out …
This fear is palpable in the onslaught of Unionist propaganda – all of it yelling for the SNP to take the Indyref off the table – to which we and the SNP have been subjected throughout, and still more so after, the GE.
Do for us what we cannot do for ourselves, it yells. Please shoot yourself in the foot and remove Indyref2, so that we can get on with the negotiations in the way that we want, unhindered, and without having to look over our shoulders.
This Unionist fear has its reasons, but it is also irrational. Much of it arises because they see the SNP as anti-English, which it is not. They don’t realise how modern the SNp became.
Far from wanting to sink England, or England’s genuine interests, the SNP wants to help them get the best possible deal they can. That is in Scotland’s interests too. We want Scottish-English relations post-independence to be excellent, and for the border to remain an open one, which is good for everyone.
The SNP must keep Indyref2 alive, and kicking. The negotiators on all sides need to be aware of that prospect – or specter – of Scottish independence. Having that loom over the negotiations is good for Scotland and good for everyone. Whatever else, it just happens to be the reality anyway. No amount of Government and Unionist hysteria, or desire to live in cloud-cuckoo land, will in fact get rid of it. Reality is – quite simply – reality. There will be an Indyref2 some time, and Scotland will sooner or later go independent.
Keeping Indyref2 on the table, looming on the horizon and sometimes moving to the forefront, is the best way for the SNP –
and all of us – to guarantee, as far as it is possible, that Scotland’s real and best interest are protected during the negotiations.
Both the UK and the EU negotiating teams need to be kept aware of … of what? Of one of the key realities that they are in fact dealing with.
Keep it, Nicola: don’t withdraw it. Don’t wobble. Never mind if keeping it causes a measure of internal descent within your own Party: facing down the dissenters will be good for you, and good for the SNP, and for Scotland, in the long run. And even in the immediate term. Stick to the course; don’t waver.
Even England needs to have the Scottish Indyref2 looming over it, for its own ultimate good. Letting them have what they keep clamouring for would not be good for them, just as it would be very bad for us. The fact that the clamour comes from them already demonstrates that what they want is in their own interests, not Scotland’s. Don’t let them hoodwink us …
heedtracker says:
19 June, 2017 at 4:52 pm
So why do Scots have the sovereign right to say bye bye to England then, in this “country” Phil Robertson?
That’s simple. Think Czechoslovakia.
“Its a funny kind of country, when near half of it can tell the other half, thanks very much but we would like Scotland to become a nation state again, if that’s alright with you.”
What on earth are you talking about? Since when did half the UK ever say anything about Scotland? They have never been consulted on the future of Scotland!
@ Legerwood – well they say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery – so Nicola can consider herself well and truly admired by British Labour. If only they could let go of Trident.
You’re overwrought old boy, calm down. Westminster is the establishment and a pompous bunch of incompetent Tories are running the show there at the moment, they are managing all by themselves to harm ‘your’ country. If others wish or hope those arseholes are found out to be what we know them to be in reality, through the process of Brexit negotiations, it’s hardly surprising that those of us from whatever country, including yours, would welcome that.
The ‘inferred’ political gain that you imply is nonsense, we want a good deal for our country too, our country’s polity is as much at risk if those Tories pursue the harmful Brexit that your chosen party threatens. You keep trying to make this about England and it’s people, your attempt at placing this ‘wedge’ between others of a different political outlook from you isn’t working. Because it is not the issue.
We have a plan in place should your chosen party inevitably screw this up as they are doing on every other domestic front within the UK scene. Do we want out of the Union? Yes of course, but it’s not because we wish people in England harm. Give it a rest trying to make out that it is. It’s tiring and childish.
Wull says:
19 June, 2017 at 5:02 pm
I posted this on the previous post by mistake. Here it is again, somewhat modified.
It does not seem to me so bad that Mundell now accepts an Indyref taking place in 2021, after the Scottish Holyrood elections.”
Wull, its a very basic yoon plan, red and blue tory.
Look at how Holyrood works. Its always a knife edge majority.
So BBC Scotland led monstering of SNP Scots gov, with specific targeting of any SNP that looks ready and willing to attack the Mayhem crew in Westminster, almost certainly drags down SNP current minority down far more than this parliament and they would even hope and plan to get Ruth D’s tory clown show into Scots gov.
This will ofcourse be the end of indyref2, permanently, or at least in our lifetime. And ofcourse, its the end of Scottish nation.
We are now already in the BBC Scotland led election and anti SNP 2021 campaign. They did really well in the last UK GE. The Scots 2021 GE is the final assault, for the massed ranks of BBC Scotland led tory gimps of the UK.
By next Scots polling day, June 8 2021(wiki) BBC Scotland will make sure that the SNP will lose. That’s what they are all tasked with.
So far, its working.
At the very least, Scots will be left with whatever it is beeb Scotland gimps decide Scotland actually should be.
Wull @ 5.02pm Yes.
Furthermore if anyone thinks that Alex Salmond has gone to bed with a bottle and a pistol, they are very much mistaken.
@ Wull – great summary of the Tory plan for BREXIT. I agree that they are desperate to get Indyref2 “off the table”. Which indicates that they plan to barter away our assets. Luckily, Nicola has stymied their plan, for now.
I believe that the Westminster planners thought they could get the SNP seats below 30 and declare that the Unionists had won the GE and Indyref2 was dead. They failed. But they will try again – this time pushing Labour to take SNP seats. Radio Scotland is already hard at work, broadcasting Good News stories about Labour and its glorious past.
Jo Swinson has turned down the opportunity to lead the Lib Dems. She would probably have boosted the Lib Dem vote in Scotland and make Labour victories harder to produce and maybe even dilute the Tory vote in the North East. So the Liberals are sacrificing themselves for the Greater Union. Idiots.
That’s the plan as I see it.
@ Wull
The Scot Gov’s IndyRef2 mandate was given to this parliament. If we do as Mundell wants (i.e. the NEXT Scottish Parliament) then that mandate falls and, who knows, there’s a possibility that we might not get an Indy majority after the next SP elections.
We use the mandate we have and tell Mundell to take a hike (with hiking stick if he likes). IndyRef2 will happen on the ScotGov’s terms and NOT WM’s.
heedtracker says:
Exactly.
There’s a not so subtle part to all the Yoon “No IndyRef” rhetoric … they never ever connect Brexit with IndyRef2.
They try to imply the SG want IndyRef2 soon, or when they are not doing that, they suggest after 2021. Under no circumstances do they reinforce the reality that IndyRef2 will be a direct response to Brexit.
It’s an essential element of their agenda to disconnect the two.
And therein lies their Achilles heel. An IndyRef2 called after a dreadful Brexit has been revealed is the nightmare they are trying so hard to avoid. But it would be unavoidable.
If we were to start calling IndyRef2 something like BrexitDealRef, their heads would explode.
The SNP 2016 manifesto said “We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.”
I don’t see any mention of a good deal/soft brexit/hard brexit. It doesn’t mention Single Market. Surely the majority of Scots on 23 June 2016 voting to Remain is all that is needed? Why are we waiting to see what happens with brexit? Brexit means leaving the EU regardless and the majority of Scots voted against that.
So why are we waiting?
Scotlands parliment voted and won a mandate for inderef2 AFTER the details of brexit were known to us Scots and BEFORE the next Scottish elections.
Thats all we need. The rest is Bull from the usual suspects and Mundell and the rest of the unionists can moan all they want we will have the referendum on our terms . After and Before are written in stone.
feckin trolls keep repeating the same stuff hoping it will one day be true .
Sensible and Phil why the hell you think you have any influence on these pages is bordering on mindless feckin ramble .
Go sort your own country out . It’s been the laughing stock for years and you have the cheek to come here and spill your bile .
Am off back out in the sun ….. Midlothian is cooking just now . Taps aff and cold drink ….. maybe some highlights tonight of the Brexit talks . set me up for a nice night 😉
“The UK is a country” Laughed so much i nearly pished myself 🙂
More please lol
@me at 5:42
Thinking more about that.
I remember during the GE by big standard reply to Tories going on about IndyRef2 was to say “that’s now in the hands of TMay and how she handles Brexit, IR2 only happens if she screws up”.
Without exception, that isn’t they way ordinary Yoon voters were thinking. They had swallowed the considerable propaganda that IR2 was something the SNP were trying to inflict upon them. They seemed oblivious to the direct cause and effect of Brexit and IR2.
We really need to push that.
Just listened to the announcement from Brussels and the BBC coverage thereof.
It went down EXACTLY, EXACTLY as the EU said it was to be.
Did the BBC admit that the Brexiteers had to all intents and purposes capitulated entirely to the program laid out by the EU months ago?
Nope. They were spinning frantically, furiously.
Who are they trying to kid?
@tatu3 5:43pm
Fair point.
tatu3 says:
Here’s my opinion.
Firstly, the SNP are going out if their way to be reasonable in respect of both the 2014 and 2016 results and offering a compromise.
Secondly, the SNP always expected Brexit to be hard and their willingness to be reasonable to be rejected out of hand. Which of course puts them in a stronger position when ‘forced’ to call a referendum.
The biggest freak out for all yoons everywhere and especially in Pacific Quay, is indyref2 is certainly winnable, or in their case, losable.
The whole red and blue tory BBC Scotland led creep show, dark money and all have just watched the first day of the tory Brexit stuff.
They know full well that this can just as easily be happening to imperial masters, straight after they lose indyref2, 52% YES.
To quote the greatest athlete in the world today, Let’s do this:D
Senile Dave back to work on Monday with all the rest of the deniers.
They would deny the right of Scots to decide if they want to put up with Mays brexit deal or no deal.
They are feart.
@Richard Duncan
Its time to be patient as it is very likely the following will happen:
Pound will continue to loose value
Scotland and Scotlands representatives will be largely ignored.
There is no good deal for the UK coming out of the EU, its just a question of what may be salvaged. Eg. The EU dont want other members getting ideas, so there will be no favours. This will take time for people to become more aware and accept the facts as they are. What is a soft or hard brexit — it will become clearer only near the end.
Its also likely that UK be in a degree of turmoil, making independence less scary and the other side of the coin is remaining wont look at all as stable or as risk free to some who thought so in the past.
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-17-1704_en.htm
Ireland and Good Friday agreement look to be a priority. No mention of Gibraltar yet…
..and in other news, Gove promises the UK will become a green nirvana with stricter environmental controls once out of the dastardly EU which has been holding back the UK’s progress towards being an environmentalists dream… LOL
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-40331919?intlink_from_url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-40330979&link_location=live-reporting-story
…and for any Remainers who voted Labour:
https://twitter.com/nickreeves9876/status/875207246728134657
Yet again May is ranting on about proposals to clamp down on hatred, racism and xenophobia on the internet.
Perhaps she should have a look at The Daily Mail, Express, Telegraph and the Murdoch rags before she starts on the internet.
gus1940 at 6:34
Yup. The gutter press is the biggest agent for the spread of hatred, intolerance, and bigotry in the UK. Nothing else comes close.
Scot Goes Pop has interesting poll comments, including speculation that the SNP has already bounced back and would win over 40 seats in an election now.
http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/survation-poll-gives-lie-to-notion-that.html
Patience, now more than ever, is the watchword. The SG have made their position and intention more than clear.
Commentary/hearsay/bullshit from the media is neither necessary nor helpful. There’s only one government and system of government they have any interest in aiding. Basically what’s good for them, is bad for Scotland’s population. Only official releases or statements from the Scottish government have any weight.
Bear in mind, this same media and political opposition have spent the past year stating that our government and first minister were bluffing on the issue of an indyref… right up until it turned out she wasn’t and declared the debate and vote in the Scottish parliament.
If you want to know what’s going on, visit the SG site on updates of the SGs position or statements. If you want to know what is going on vis a vis Brexit, I’d recommend going to the EU site for updates. They do transparency somewhat better than UK gov.
In the meantime, the YES movement could do worse than continue getting the band back together and gearing up over the next year or so.
Glamaig says:
19 June, 2017 at 6:31 pm
…and for any Remainers who voted Labour:
https://twitter.com/nickreeves9876/status/875207246728134657
I cant find any source for this other than 1 angry guy on twitter. Anybody?
ephemeraldeception 6.12pm
I totally agree.
But its soooo frustrating . 🙂 🙂 🙂
And i find it extremely perplexing that some YES voters are falling for MSM bull again. I should ignore it i know . I am trying honest .
If we fail next time i will shrink into nothingness …. we cant say no twice surely 😉
Hope over ….. everything
Barnier also reiterated any final deal UK/EU FTA only finalised after we have left as 3rd party (not in 2 yrs) ie:
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/876861152294313984
Hi sensibledave,
I asked you for a formal copy of the U.K. Constitution to be put up on here, not your piecemeal interpretation of the U.K. parliament.
And oblige
What a ride this has been in the last 5 years and despite what’s happened in the past it looks like we’re only coming to the really juicy bits now.
Thinking back to 2012, nobody really gave Independence a chance of winning and that’s why Cameron gave the OK for referendum.
Then when we ran them so close in 2014 it seems they panicked a bit and offered “the vow.” A vow they failed to deliver of course.
Next up 2015 General elcetion and an absolute landslide for the SNP which left the other three main Westminster parties with only one representative each.
Fast forward to 2016 and we have the Scottish election, OK slightly disappointing in that SNP failed to win an absolute majority but with the support of the Greens Independence parties did gain an overall majority.
Now for the good stuff. Who really would have believed that Cameron’s gamble on a Brexit vote would fail. I didn’t until I witnessed with my own eyes how the North East of England was going to vote. It was different in Scotland of course with 62% voting to remain.
This was it it I thought, game over and surely now Independence is inevitable. Unfortunately I had no way of knowing or even imagining that so many Yes voters would vote leave, the switchers seemed to cancel each other out.
Now in 2017 there is much excitement, who could have imagined Theresa May calling an election expecting a landslde then losing her majority? That is so funny I’m still laughing.
Now today Brexit talks have started, I reckon I’m going to have plenty to laugh about in the coming weeks. The Tories are toast, Labour overtook them today in the latest poll from Survation.
SNP a bit on the back foot after losing a lot of seats but thankfully haven’t panicked and can start building strength again.
@Breeks I saw your reply to me on the last thread and totally agree. We need broadcasting devolved. Any deal with Labour must make this the number one item.
Most of all, let’s stay positive and do the best we can to make Sc otland an Independent country once again. Chin up LOL
A key thing for Scottish independence is that the support for that by the EU is retained.
There is a danger that the UK team will give away Scottish resources as part of the deal. First, because its Scotland and they don’t care what impact that has there, second, and probably more importantly from their perspective, if the EU accept that then their attitude towards Scottish independence will likely reverse.
If at all possible, the EU team should be made aware at every opportunity that any deals regarding Scottish resources should be placed in a ‘pending the result of indyref2’ category.
Lord Ashcroft’s poll, conducted on the day of the election, says that 21% of SNP voters voted Leave. Only 22% are enthusiastic about BREXIT, 15% accept it, and 62% are resistant to it. So there is still 62% Remain support with a further 15% not sure. That’s quite a solid basis on which to argue for Independence in Europe.
http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2017/06/result-happen-post-vote-survey/
The SNP voters social attitudes are interesting too.
Doesn’t sensible Dave sound like the white settler who used to come up here and talk down to us stupid scots because they needed to be told how to run things and he is an educated Englishman and thus superior
We just used to nod our heads in agreement and think what a fucking arse
Now we just say it ,Dave you are a fucking arse
The Graun Scotland region/section Brexit coverage latest. Its nice that these twerps are trolling Scotland like this now. But proud Scot buts did vote NO because they liked the English making the big decisions for them,
Air transport
Contaminated air on planes linked to crew ill-health, study finds
Research looking at symptoms from dizziness to breathing and vision problems said to have ‘flight safety consequences’
The scientists examined more than 200 aircrew and found many had been exposed to a number of substances through aircrafts’ contaminated air.
A pilot in his cockpit. Scientists examined more than 200 aircrew for the study. Photograph: Chris Pancewicz/Alamy
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Press Association
Monday 19 June 2017 19.03 BST
We would have been anticipating Scottish independence day now if Nicola had struck when the iron was hot and not wasted months flogging a dead horse – – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.
Rock (26th June 2016 – Notes from the madhouse)
“With the UK leaving the EU, there is absolutely no credible way for Scotland to remain part of the UK as well as the EU as if nothing had changed.
Everything depends on Scotland being fully independent.
The EU will want Scotland more than Scotland wants the EU.
Scotland is in a very strong position right now.
Nicola should get a written statement from the EU that if Scotland votes for independence, Scotland can be a full member from day 1, with the same arrangements as present regarding currency, Schengen etc, IF Scotland wants to be a member from day 1.
The independence referendum questions should then be:
Should Scotland become independent?
If Yes,
Should Scotland continue as a member of the EU, or
Should Scotland leave the EU?
If the vote is for independence outside the EU, we can leave the UK on the same day as the UK (including Scotland) leaves the EU.
We should not wait for the outcome of the Tory civil war down south.
The independence referendum should be held before Cameron’s successor takes over.
All the issues have been already extensively debated during the last campaign and the Wee Black Book exposing Project Fear’s lies is very conveniently fresh off the Press to be delivered to every household in Scotland.
Strike while the iron is hot.”
Chick McGregor says:
19 June, 2017 at 7:26 pm
“A key thing for Scottish independence is that the support for that by the EU is retained.
There is a danger that the UK team will give away Scottish resources as part of the deal.”
Thanks Chick – mails off to MSP and to MP.
@COLIN ALEXANDER says: 19 June, 2017 at 2:10 pm:
” … For those that believe in the benefits of the Union. Then surely they recognise that snubbing Scottish sovereignty within the Union will only drive Scotland to leave the Union.”
And that is the point where your whole argument gets shot all to hell, Colin.
Here’s why. The Treaty of union is, like any other bipartite union, a marriage of equals. If one partner leaves a bipartite union they cannot leave behind any kind of union.
Scotland cannot leave behind a still United KINGDOM because what is left behind is a sole partner KINGDOM and it is The KINGDOM of England.
Thus while Scotland cannot leave the United KINGDOM Scotland can end the United KINGDOM. What then remains is England the KINGDOM.
i.e, The KINGDOM of the country of England complete with the English Principality of Wales and the English Province of Northern Ireland.
And if you doubt the truth of the above consider this – If Wales is NOT an English Principality and Northern Ireland is NOT an English Province then they must both be factored into the equation as United Kingdom Assets and must thus form parts of the divorce settlement and be shared between the only two kingdoms who are signatory to The Treaty of Union.
Ken500,
“A woman May (Tories) has some responsibility for the situation.”
She is Prime Minister of UK because of the undemocratic First Past The Post voting system which you and heedtracker are hell bent on bringing to Scotland.
No democrat should ever want such an undemocratic system.
How much longer are we going to have to wait for the resignation of K&C Council’s Leader & Chief Exec. plus the directors of the Housing ALEO?
They are probably shamelessly hanging on to ensure they get the best possible obscene Golden Goodbyes.
@sensibledave says: 19 June, 2017 at 2:54 pm:
“Why on earth would the Rev, or anyone else, take exception to my comment?”
Re your above question – I refer you to my previous comment upon your arrival today on Wings. i.e. It is, as usual, your usual utter pish!
Robert Peffers,
“The United KINGDOM is not a country.”
Yes, it is, for all political purposes
The United Kingdom as a political COUNTRY is a member of the United Nations, the European Union and NATO.
If and when the UK gets out of the EU, so does the North Britain part of it, no ifs no buts.
Pedantry like yours got us nowhere in the last 310 years and will get us nowhere in the next 310.
SNP political broadcast ‘unfair’ to farmer, regulator Ofcom rules
Well well it did not take them long for this to be reported when all the complaints about BBC Scotland is never gone to Ofcom I wont go on but we are treated as second class.
Scott,
“I wont go on but we are treated as second class.”
Why wouldn’t we be?
All we have is loud mouths and no spines.
@Fred says: 19 June, 2017 at 3:39 pm:
“Northern Ireland a province? it’s a bit of somebody else’s province!”
Aye! Fred. It is also bit of someone else’s country too.
Did someone just say, “Aye! That’s the, “Troubles”?
Then there is Wales, which is an English Principality and it’s head of State is the Prince of Wales. An independent Princedom until 1284 when The Statute of Rhuddlan made it the Princedom of the first born son of the Monarch of England.
Then, in 1688, the Kingdom of England became a Constitutional Monarchy and until today the Prince of Wales is the son of the Monarch of the Kingdom of England and as such the Prince of Wales is his parents subject and thus Wales remains an English Principality. However, in 1688, Scotland was still an independent Kingdom and only two Kingdoms formed the United Kingdom.
O/T
Papering over poverty by Jonathan Pie, worth a look
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cft52h89roU
BREAKING NEWS
The Mare Celeste deserters have been found and are rumoured to be operating in European waters….It’s being reported they are in control of a ship by the name of USS Britannia and they’re hurtling into tsunami-like conditions….Reports reaching Scotland tell of a Captain Pugwash Davidson clinging for dear life to the arse of a Rear Admiral Mayhem….END!
Scottish Rescue Services decline to comment, stating only that “now is not the time”
@sensibledave says: 9 June, 2017 at 3:46 pm:
“How’s that for starters?”
@sensibledave – I refer you to my reply Re. The same old pish as usual.
sensibledave says:
19 June, 2017 at 4:03 pm
TO K1 if you are about
Would I be being overly sensitive if interpreted that statement as the very lovely Dan Huil wishing ill will on the Parliament that governs me? Would I be wrong to interpret that statement as wishing a bad outcome from the negotiations for my fellow country folk – because he believes it will aid his political objectives?
I know, I am over-thinking things again K1!
Hi, Dave.
Why are you on here casting pearls of wisdom before us Scots swine and lecturing us on the UK constitution? If you live in England, why don’t you, in the politest way possible, mind your own business and focus on your own country and its problems?
Or do you have some kind of sentimental attachment to the Union, the UK, your “country” and so feel an overwhelming desire to defend it?
Just curious as I personally find it risible when English people try to lecture the Scots on what’s good for us. I’m sure you don’t mean to come across as patronising but by the tone of your comments on here, you certainly do.
@Stoker 8.43
Pugwash Davidson attempting to hold Ireland hostage – but still does not know what demands his gang of bad guys want in exchange.
Hostage negotiator Barnier trying to to figure out what Mayhem and Co actually want – Pizza, drinks and a walking stick handed over in exchange for hostage takers giving up their demands that the trade agreement be negotiated – Brexit bill and EU citizens rights must be agreed first.
EU SWAT team mobilsed. Considering going in to try and prevent the Sasannaich shooting themselves in their feet
New development: Grenfell Tower Block:
In the last few minutes.
Four separate government ministers were warned:
https://archive.is/QtR0K
Last paragraph of the story..
In a separate development, Panorama has discovered that firefighters put out the first fire at Grenfell Tower.
They were called to a fridge fire, and within minutes told residents the fire was out in the flat.
The crew was leaving the building when firefighters outside spotted flames rising up the side of the building.
The Fire Brigades Union say firefighters were left facing an unprecedented fire, and officers broke their own safety protocol to rescue people.
O/T
We had Nicola in Dunoon today (at the renovated Dunoon Burgh Hall). She had been in Edinburgh and Glasgow on other appointments first.
When she walked out of the Burgh Hall onto the main street everybody stopped to take photos and spontaneous applause broke out from all around the place from the ordinary people in the street.
Don’t believe the shite in the press. We have the best leader the SNP has ever had.That is why the media continues to demonise and vilify her.
@Phil Robertson says: 19 June, 2017 at 4:33 pm:
“I think that you will find that it is”
I’m afraid not, Phil. After around 70 years of detailed research I have been totally unable to discover any documentary proof that The United Kingdom of Great Britain that subsequently became first, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Ireland”, and then, upon the partition of the Country of Ireland, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland”.
After which the former United Kingdom Dominion of The Irish Free State declared itself as, “The Republic of Ireland”.
Perhaps, Phil, you might be kind enough to direct me to the documentation, and the legal judgement, that made the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland into a unified Country?
To the best of my knowledge, Phil, the present setup of the so called United Kingdom is being run with Westminster as the de facto Parliament of the Country Of England and that de facto parliament of England has set itself up as the master country and thus is devolving English powers to the other three countries and enforcing those powers by use of EVEL.
Mind you that Westminster Parliament claims it is the renamed, “Kingdom Of England”, and there’s the rub. There seems not an iota of documentary or legislative proof this ever actually happened. It is the failure to find this evidence that I have been unable to discover.
So Westminster now declares that the United Kingdom is four distinct countries and England, which has no other elected as such parliament, is the master country and the three other countries are thus de facto English dominions.
Perhaps you might be kind enough to direct me to the actual legislation that created the former bipartite United Kingdom as a unified country. Thank you in anticipation, Phil. I would be much obliged to gain that knowledge before I shuffle of this mortal coil for I would be so disappointed to die without finishing my researches into this matter.
I’m trying to build a picture about the huge anti plot against honest democracy we have just been subjected to in Scotland. I got 13 leaflets posted to me by a unionist party virtually all squealing “no referendum”.
I understand that in other unionist target seats the same thing happened – one party alone promoted by a deluge of posted leaflets.
I’d be happy to hear from other areas
By my conservative estimation at least £100,000 was spend on posting anti referendum leaflets during the election campaign into Argyll and Bute.
I note a newly-posted piece on The Scotsman’s website, suggesting some/many of the defeated SNP MPs following the General Election could/will cause problems for Nicola Sturgeon.
Anything the Yoon media can do to sow discord and unrest in the SNP, they will do.
What a pathetic bunch.
Robert Peffers,
“After around 70 years of detailed research”
Why haven’t you ever written a book?
“you might be kind enough to direct me to the documentation, and the legal judgement, that made the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland into a unified Country?”
The United Nations, European Union and NATO only have unified countries as members, not regions of countries.
Bavaria, which has far more economic and political powers than your “North Britain”, is not a member, the country known as Germany is.
Might you be kind enough to direct me to the documentation that states that the Kingdom of Scotland is a member of these organisations?
As long as the union exists, the United Kingdom is a political country, full stop.
The European Union is going to negotiate Brexit with the UK government, not with North Britain.
Has the European Union, United Nations, NATO ever formally discussed anything with North Britain, or signed any agreements with North Britain?
Dave McEwan Hill,
“I’m trying to build a picture about the huge anti plot against honest democracy we have just been subjected to in Scotland.”
If we haven’t figured that out in the last 310 years, we are too stupid to be independent.
As an SNP activist, are you suggesting that the SNP did not anticipate this?
Rock (24th May – Nursing a grievance),
“Last time, the unionists had anticipated a win and had not planned any black arts operations.
This time, they are well prepared for pre-emptive strikes before a referendum can happen.
They will use any means possible to prevent a referendum before Brexit has been completed.
If they had intelligence of an attack in Scotland, they would rather let it happen than prevent it, in my view.”
Socrates MacSporran,
“I note a newly-posted piece on The Scotsman’s website, suggesting some/many of the defeated SNP MPs following the General Election could/will cause problems for Nicola Sturgeon.
Anything the Yoon media can do to sow discord and unrest in the SNP, they will do.”
Rock (13th July 2016 – Fist brutally attacked by face)
“I believe the SNP too has been infiltrated and needs to be extremely careful.”
Rock at 9.53
I have no idea what your remarks have to do with my post.
I have no idea why I bother replying
Tomorrow’s National front page:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCtft7aXoAA2MKt.jpg
Of all your endless commenting Rock, you have never once criticised planet toryboy ever.
Is that part of your training dude? Thou shalt criticise our imperial tory master baiters, amen.
Here’s some good SNP news, if the link works, just for you Rock.
https://www.snp.org/radical_education_reforms_are_absolutely_the_right_thing_to_do
@Phil Robertson says: 19 June, 2017 at 5:06 pm:
“That’s simple. Think Czechoslovakia.”
Eh!
Why ever would we think Czechoslovakia, Phil?
I’ll try to keep it as brief as possible for you but it is rather complex and long winded.
There is independent Scottish law. (As per Article 19 of the Treaty of Union 1707), and this Rule of Law is based upon the acceptance of the then ruling international authority of The Holy Roman Se. The then Pope, (God’s first hand man on Earth), accepted that not only was Scotland an independent Kingdom but he accepted the Scottish claim that God had given the people of Scotland his sovereignty.
In case you do not know the facts, sovereignty was the God given right of Kings to rule. These kings were chosen by God by being born as heir to a sovereign monarch but by accepting that Robert Bruce was only the defender of the people of Scotland’s sovereignty the Holy Roman Se accepted that God had chosen the people of Scotland as having the God Given right to rule. This has never changed since 1320 and Article 19 0f the Treaty of Union 1707 affirms that right.
In England the rule of law of Divine Right of Kings, (affirmed in England By Magna Carta, continued until 1688 and the English Parliament’s, “Glorious Revolution when the English Parliament revolted against their Monarchy and the parliamentarians, unable to supplant God’s ruling, retained their monarchy as sovereign but deposed their monarch, (who also wore the still independent Crown of Scotland). They then imported the foreign King Billy & Queen Mary of Orange as monarchs of only the three country Kingdom of England. However, they forced the immigrant royals to legally, (under only English Law), to delegate their sovereign powers to the Parliament of the three country Kingdom of England.
This created the Kingdom of England to being the, “Constitutional Monarchy”, that it remains today.
Unfortunately the English Parliament then erroneously, (and illegally), assumed that their revolt against the then King of England also deposed that monarch as King of Scots – but in 1688 Scotland was still an independent Kingdom and the people, not the monarch, were legally sovereign, (and they still are legally sovereign today).
Which is why the English Parliament required a Treaty of Union in 1707. Why would they have needed a Treaty of Union in 1707 if there had actually been a Union of the Crowns in 1603? Why need a Treaty of Union in 1707 if King Billy & Queen Mary had actually become joint monarchs of Scotland in 1688?
And that’s the legal truth of the matter. The English Parliament sat and wound itself up in 1707 and there has been NO ELECTED AS SUCH Parliament of England since 1st day of May 1707. It is recorded as such in Hansard.
On the other hand the Scottish Parliament never sat and legally ended. It was proclaimed around the streets of Edinburgh as having ended but that did not legally end the Scottish Parliament. It was only officially, “Prorogued”.
Now go and watch this:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiottF-df3Y
Winnie Ewing, a trained lawyer, did not open a new Parliament of Scotland – she reconvened the old one that was only ever prorogued.
To this day the English Kingdom’s Rule of Law remains as the three country Kingdom of England being a Constitutional Monarchy and their constitutional monarch must legally delegate her sovereign powers over her English Kingdom to the Parliament of England but that Parliament of legally ended in 1707 and was replaced with the Parliament of the United Kingdom.
The Rule of Law of Scotland remains as the people of Scotland being sovereign and her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II of England is their defender of the people’s sovereignty. There isn’t a shred of evidence that the claim now being made that the Treaty of Union of 1707 renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom.
Unless, of course, you can prove otherwise.
You are welcome to try to do so Phil. As usual, though, you will do what you have always done. You will make statements as if your claims are facts yet you have never, (to my knowledge), ever offered anything whatsoever to back up you claims.
In truth that is a bit like the de facto Parliament of England. It also makes claims but then offers only, “because we say so”, to justify it’s claims and its actions – and none of that kind of evidence will ever be accepted as evidence when these matter inevitably end up in the international courts.
Rock 8.37pm. No rock,all we have are unionist cuckoos in Scotlands nest. F*****g self serving parasites the lot of them. Who have held our up our country around the world,to ridicule and embarrassment.
@” Robert Peffers ” ‘For those that believe in the benefits of the Union. Then surely they recognise that snubbing Scottish sovereignty within the Union will only drive Scotland to leave the Union.’
And that is the point where your whole argument gets shot all to hell, Colin.
Here’s why. The Treaty of union is, like any other bipartite union, a marriage of equals. If one partner leaves a bipartite union they cannot leave behind any kind of union.”
I get what you’re saying, but the focus of my comment is: Scottish sovereingty within the Union and how if that sovereignty is not respected and upheld then the Union is unlikely to survive. Those that are in favour of the Union should support Scottish sovereignty as undermining it is not strengthening the Union; it is destroying it.
It’s NOT meant as a treatise on the composition of the Union and how Scottish independence would affect the UK.
Thus, I believe my basic premise is valid.
If it makes you happy:
Snubbing Scottish sovereignty within the Union will only drive Scotland to END the Union of the United Kingdom.
Day 1. Tory creep show bombs. Hey Rock, saw this and thought, I know Rock would really weally wuv to read about how its all gone to toryboy ratshit.
As a vile sep loud mouth with no spine, its really fcuking me off, that the ligger for Huff post’s doing the usual tory press thing, avoiding the actual fact that its not the UK that’s fcuked it up in Day 1 but planet toryboy.
Never get used to mass ranks of tory frauds of the UK meeja Rock.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/david-davis-brexit-michel-barnier_uk_594809d4e4b0cddbb00887ba?utm_hp_ref=uk
POLITICS
UK Caves In On First Day Of Brexit Talks
The EU secured a key victory in a matter of hours.
19/06/2017 18:34 | Updated 3 hours ago
@ Shinty, Brilliant pal!
Colin those that are in favour of the union,don’t give a flying f*** about Scottish sovereignty.
@tatu3 says: 19 June, 2017 at 5:43 pm:
” … Brexit means leaving the EU regardless and the majority of Scots voted against that.
So why are we waiting?”
I admire your spirit but not your flawed logic, tatu3.
Logically, until Brexit negotiations end, either in an acceptable form for the Unionists at Westminster, or as unacceptable and the Westminster unionists declaring they accept no deal is better than a bad deal then Westminster can still call off Brexit and remain in the EU.
The European leadership stated that the UK had the legal right to call of Brexit just a couple of days ago.
Brexit – what an idiotic term as Britain is not in the EU so Britain cannot exit from Europe, (which incidentally is not all of Europe either, only parts of Britain are in the European Union and only parts of Europe are in the EU.
That, however, highlights the idiotic mind set of the Westminster Unionists. These idiots imagine they rule over all of Britain but that Britain is a major World Power.
Totally agree
I was alarmed to hear Davis announce on day 1 that “we’re leaving the single market and the customs union. Is that it? Hard brexit whatever even with no mandate for it? And no room for manoeuvre? This approach cannot hold …
‘The Human Atlas of Europe offers a positive message about our continent. A Europe of people united, a Europe of hope rather than a continent in decline. After all, where else in the world is there such diversity, complexity, coherence and communality? Where else in the world have so many people lived in a place where it is illegal for any government to execute any citizen, where people have so many rights, and hopes, responsibilities, and prospects. Where else in the world today do so many millions of people live within a whole they can’t quite see, that they can only imagine, whose borders they are not sure of and whose languages and cultures are so many? Where else but in Europe do so many have so much and yet so often not know what they have? Europe is a continent that is truly united in such diversity’
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2017/05/09/human-atlas-of-europe-united-in-diversity/
Little Britain will have to get used to being a minor entity in the northern hemisphere. Fear not minions- in partnership with your non-government we will build our new empire trading in scare commodities- jam, biscuits made by you-a zero hours contract workforce under the cosh with no rights, sweating it out in rising temperatures due to global warming,drinking fracked water- it’s going to be the best deal ever, for at least 1% of us.
Most interesting and excellent post from Wull @ 0502 pm. Let’s hope that the EU is now fully aware of the Westminster Tory government’ s anti democratic and repressive policy towards the ” so called ” equal partner ” in the so called ” United Kingdom.” Hopefully they are also fully aware that the ” snap” GE was a covert attack on the SNP and the Holyrood government by Westminster’s ” propaganda wing” ( MSM/BBC ), in a blatant attempt to block any possibility of Indyref 2 ( which was democratically mandated by our Scottish government) following a compromise Brexit proposal
completely ignored by May & Davis.We do know that the EU negotiators are obviously fully aware of the 62 percent remain vote from Scottish citizens . Apparently , the UK government negotiators want no single market access or customs union with the EU . Hopefully , at some point , the EU side could ” bring up” the subject of Scottish ( and N.Irish ) citizen’ s rights and even advocate the possibility of ” dual EU/U.K. Citizenship for citizens of these countries ( if they wish) as the majority remain vote clearly indicated. Furthermore , perhaps additionally Monsieur Barnier and colleagues could also bring up the option of single market / and/or custom’s union membership for Scotland/ N. Ireland . Of course, as regards EU citizenship and the aforementioned membership he could conversely offer agreement on the democratic wishes of RUK.
I cannot believe that over the course of the next 1-2 years of negotiations that the position of Scotland will not be mentioned within these ” Brexit negotiations” .
Watch out for the ” political explosion” in Scotland if Barnier decides to ” light the fuse”. Perhaps this would result in the ” so called” ” United Kingdom” delegation ” pulling stumps”??
Phronesis @ 11.38
“scare commodities” – was that typo or a Freudian slip? LOL
North Chiel
In regard to citizenship that remains entirely within the EU gift and there is nothing Westminster can do about it.
It is up to the EU and only the EU, to decide who may have citizenship rights conferred upon them. If they decided that Scots, say, can still move freely and work within the EU, there is nothing Westminster can do about it.
Westminster can, of course, refuse to recognize it as such, but unless they decide, like the USA, that dual citizenship is a deportation matter, then that is about it.
And if they go down the anti-dual citizenship route for Scots, then they would have to do so for any Irish, American, Australian etc.etc. dual citizenship holders in the UK too. i.e. it isn’t going to happen.
O/T
When I lived in Buckinghamshire I used to see all the planes that had flown over Buckingham Palace in a flypast, from my back garden.
They used to fly west over the palace and head out towards RAF Wendover and over the years I saw Lancasters, Spitfires, The Red Arrows and many other aircraft.
(Concorde was a regular sight as it flew into Heathrow).
However, have a look at this…
https://twitter.com/beaubodor/status/876142046796558336
How did this make the survivors of Grenfell tower feel?
Wull
“My understanding – someone please correct me if I am wrong – is that there is a time limit on how long a leaving member can negotiate its exit deal. I can’t remember the exact period that is laid down – was it 18 months? Or two years? Anyway, as far as I remember, it was not more than that. ”
From my fairly close reading of the Lisbon Treaty, admittedly a few years ago, the situation is as follows.
First, let me say that the introduction of the clause was because of complaints that a member state had hitherto, no mechanism for leaving the EU.
So, the two year period pertains, primarily, to the exiteer.
If there is no common agreement arrived at within that period, the exiteer may legally exit the EU anyway.
i.e. it is a guarantee that those who wish to leave, can do so after two years regardless of agreement or not.
However, it does also say that that period could be extended by mutual agreement.
What it did not specify, AFICCR, is whether from the EU side, they too can force exit after the two year period without agreement.
It was also unspecified whether an exit applicant could decide to stay after all, within the two year period, although EU officials have recently indicated that that would indeed be acceptable to them.
As I say, it was few years ago, but I believe that was the situation.
Photoshop Meg. The person who made it explains where they are coming from in their twitter timeline:
‘My flypast image is a Photoshop, juxtaposing one family’s insensitive celebration with the grief of the families from Grenfell Tower.
That was for the people who think it’s real. You may think I’m a pretentious twat and the explanation probably makes me look like one but .
..that was the best way to explain it. Yes, Queenie said some nice things and there was a minutes silence. But then it was business as usual
.. multi million pound business as usual, centred around a home having millions of fucking pounds pumped into it.
.. and probably none spent on sprinklers in the servants’ quarters.’
Some find it insensitive and in bad taste others ‘get’ the point they are attempting to make.
(Imo if you have to explain it, the point is missed, also real possibility that people actually think that’s what took place, fake news element and all that)
@COLIN ALEXANDER says: 19 June, 2017 at 10:50 pm:
“I get what you’re saying, but the focus of my comment is: Scottish sovereingty within the Union and how if that sovereignty is not respected and upheld then the Union is unlikely to survive.”
Oh! I got what you were aiming to say, Colin, but you still miss the real point of what constitutes the People of Scotland’s legal sovereignty and how that legally plays out.
To begin again at the start of the whole Unionist debacle.
First of all the whole union thing was a long term and well planned, but defective, English undercover campaign. As usual it involved Scottish born agents of the Westminster Establishment.
It goes right back to when James VI of Scotland inherited the crown of the three country Kingdom of England in 1603. In 1603 the rule of law in the Kingdom of England, (and indeed throughout Europe, excepting in Scotland), was still The Divine Right of Kings.
Under which Rule of law James VI would have just tagged England, Wales & Ireland onto his existing kingdom of Scotland as their hereditary sovereign monarch. Besides because the English were not for accepting that to happen there was also the problem that the rule of Law of Scotland was unique in that the Holy Roman Se had accepted, “The Declaration Of Arbroath”, in 1320.
(I’ll skip why such a declaration was needed in Scotland), but describe what the then international authority’s acceptance caused).
First the Declaration of Arbroath stated that Scotland was an independent Kingdom but then declared that, unlike the rest of the European Kingdoms, the people of Scotland were legally sovereign and the monarchy appointed by them as, “Defender of the People’s Sovereignty”.
So James VI did not have the sovereignty of Scotland and thus could not tag the sovereignty of the Kingdom of England onto it nor could he give away to England what he did not have. Hence he remained James VI of Scots & I of England.
Who could blame him for upping stakes and moving to England where he was sovereign over three countries and defender of the sovereignty of Scotland where he was not sovereign. There was no actual Union of the Crowns in 1603 excepting just a personal union of James VI & I.
In 1688 the Parliament of England rebelled against their monarch who also wore the Scottish Crown and they deposed their monarch and brought in Billy & Mary of Orange but, as Scotland was still independent in 1688, that could not affect Scotland – except the English claimed that it also deposed the monarchy of Scotland and that kicked off the Jacobite Uprisings the English still claim as a Jacobite Rebellion.
You cannot, though, rebel against a monarchy not your own and Scotland was still independent.
Later the English parliament brought in the English Navigational Acts and included Scotland in the law. It stated that no one could trade with the English colonies and dominions except if they used the English Mercantile Marine, (or at least if they used their own ships must crew them with English Crews.
The significance of this is often overlooked. The Mercantile Marine Skippers were the ships owners and as merchants they bought and sold cargos. They thus set the prices of both imports and exports. Applying this to Scotland meant the English were ripping off the Scots, (and everyone else), for both imports and exports and this led to wars with European nations and indirectly to the American War of Independence.
This is where the plot really thickens. England’s coffers were bare due to those trade wars and the London Scot, William Paterson mooted a subscription scheme to bail out the Westminster Government and that scheme led to the formation of the Bank of England, (it did not belong to the Government but was so called because they banked with it).
The Navigational Acts are what bankrupted only the wealthy landowners in Scotland that Westminster claims bankrupted all Scotland.
These landowners were also the Scottish Parliamentarians. So now we find the London Scot, Paterson, (now an English undercover agent), in Scotland setting up the Darian Expedition to establish Scotland’s own colony at where what is now the Panama Canal now exists. Paterson was not alone for another English agent, none other than Daniel Defoe was also in Scotland working under cover. Both these spies were employed by the English Parliamentarian, Sir Robert Harley.
So there you have the bare bones of the plot to force Scotland into the Union. All pre-planned and using Scots against their own country. Now to the point of why I said you were mistaken.
The people of Scotland are indeed legally sovereign but here’s the problem. To legally enforce that sovereignty there must be an organising group to co-ordinate matters, (this is the SNP & they do not legally need to even be the Scottish Government to be the co-ordinators).
The need for such co-ordination is because to exert the legal sovereignty of the people of Scotland there needs to be a proven majority of them to legally assert their legal sovereignty over a minority of Unionists and misguided others.
That is we need a majority of legally sovereign people of Scotland in order to withdraw from the Treaty, (Not The Acts), of Union. We also should have a stated mandate from that majority to act upon.
What also must be taken into account is that there is absolutely nothing in the Treaty of Union that gives Westminster absolute sovereignty over Scotland but as there is a massive majority of English Members at Westminster Scottish MPs simply walking out of Westminster is not enough unless they can claim to be mandated to do so by an accredited majority of the Sovereign people of Scotland.
The real power that Westminster has over Scotland is not the numbers of English MPs but the legal standing of the monarchy of England being a still sovereign monarch.
By being legally compelled to delegate her powers to Westminster it means that we must overcome what is known as the Royal prerogative.
See here:-
http://www.britpolitics.co.uk/royal-prerogative-a-level-uk-politics
Now I’m going to bed. I’ve had very little sleep for some days now. This research thing can take up a lot of wee sma hours and countless cups of strong coffee.
Good to have you back in full flow Robert Peffers.
Cheers dude.
Scotland.
X.
SO, it’s the day after “Happy Brexit Day”
Freedom and new international opportunities await us all Scotland..
’til then, here’s what ye gotta do, take it away Axl:
With 192,923,999 current watchings
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErvgV4P6Fzc
Count it in..
Does anybuddy else put Tiger Balm on their temples?
It’s the attack of the ‘italics’.
Ahhh, ha ha ha!
Be you.
X.
Here’s another song by the original band of ArGent:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsG5V-o6uxY
Hey Smallaxe bro… how do.
Awe ra 3’s.
🙂 😉 🙂
🙂 😉
😉
IT’S NEVER TOO LATE TO CHANGE YOUR MIND.. TO YES!
DO IT!
NOW!
X.
NB “How good it feels to be alive”
Day one.
https://archive.is/EVkdE
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/publications/agenda-19-june-meeting-between-eu-and-uk-article-50-negotiations_en
Still, no deal is better than… something, something etc.
At some point UK gov is going to have to talk to the electorate. That should be interesting.
Awerighty Macart says:
Exactly.
Hey Cactus..my man..ma tigers and ma temples are fine!!
Robert Peffers ..I have? tried to explain Sovereignty and how it works to this Colin guy.
As usual nay questions answered by Colin …
While you gave the history… which ye kind of have to understand….
I tried to tell him that political Sovereignty was different..But he disnay address anything Robert…
I am just about out of Fucks tae give with this shit Robert,
If they are who they claim they are!!???
Why don’t they go get informed….by now ye canny argue that to comment BTL on Wing’s…. disnay mean that yer actually informed….but ..well hey ho… let’s get campaigning
Hey Liz g x ~
Aye, let’s get campaigning.
“Come on now let’s GO!, let’s GO!, lets GO…!”
GO SCO.
Merry count out one, post-brexit day.
Today is surposed to be a roaster…
Hot Jupiter!
“Will you use the GOLDEN EMBLEM?”
This above comment is about a computer game.
Normal service will resume shortly.
When will Scotlands FM and deputy FM get their invite to meet Mr Barnier to discus issues relating to Scotland?
Mr Coveney will replace Britain’s most senior Brexit minister David Davis in Brussels tomorrow as he meets with Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator.
According to reports, the problem of Ireland took up a large proportion of initial talks between Mr Davis and Mr Barnier today. Mr Coveney also spoke about the difficulty of Northern Ireland heading into EU negotiations without a government of its own to speak up.
He encouraged the DUP and Sinn Fein to find a way to return to powersharing and participate in the debate.
“Without that voice people in Northern Ireland will be disadvantaged in a major way and will be essentially relying on others to make the case for them,” he said. “I will be making that case tomorrow for example despite the fact that it should really be a First Minister and a Deputy First Minister there to meet Michel Barnier or others to make the case for Northern Ireland.”
https://archive.is/GqgtI
Repeat my question.
Exit negotiations have now formally begun. So do we have a place at the table or the keyhole?
What are our critical watershed issues? What are our “trigger” events? If Scotland is being excluded, how do we bring these negotiations grinding to a halt? How should our outrage be channelled?
This is the time when Nicola’s work with European leaders needs to reveal itself.
Westminster DOES NOT speak for the UK. That is the only line we can, and indeed must, pursue.
Time for the SNP to be hardline and intransigent. Westminster cannot be allowed to subjugate Scotland’s sovereignty and the democratic result of the Brexit referendum which enacted that sovereignty. Negotiations to exit Europe should, by automatic constitutional definition, exclude Scotland.
Come on Nicola. Prove to us, and more importantly them, that Scotland can bite as well as bark.
Links
https://www.facebook.com/notes/nicola-sturgeon/we-need-a-brexit-deal-which-works-for-scotland/1558691460839431/
https://www.snp.org/radical_education_reforms_are_absolutely_the_right_thing_to_do
https://itisintruthnotforglory.wordpress.com/2017/06/19/snidey/
http://indyref2.scot/the-brexit-fallacy
http://www.alynsmith.eu/scottish_mep_reacts_to_day_one_of_brexit_negotiations
http://www.ericjoyce.co.uk/2017/06/a-very-special-special-adviser-indeed/
https://politicalscrapbook.net/2017/06/ian-duncan-another-tory-election-loser-going-to-the-lords-as-a-taxpayer-funded-consolation-prize/
Politics scot decided to take a look into the new Tory MP Luke Graham. What I found might surprise you. Watch & share.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PdgBswuYGk
Ireland will not sign off on a Brexit deal unless we protect Good Friday Agreement fully – Coveney
Video here
https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/876856975983730688
http://jackofkent.com/2017/06/the-significance-of-the-uks-climb-down-today-on-brexit-sequencing/
Speech by Michel Barnier, the European Commission’s Chief Negotiator
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-17-1704_en.htm
The Latest: Top EU lawmaker says UK’s aims a mystery
http://archive.is/la0Mc
Nana; Good Morning, clear saltire blue sky’s here.Thank You, for Your links.
Kettle’s on. Peace Always
😎
Good morning Smallaxe, looks good here too.
http://voxpoliticalonline.com/2017/06/19/evidence-mounts-against-the-authorities-over-the-grenfell-tower-disaster-strong-language/
Fears of Grenfell Tower inferno cover-up as row erupts over whether cladding on building was legal
http://archive.is/gylOr
Clinging to austerity will kill this government – the small-state dream has evaporated
http://archive.is/hYmWT
Mark Steel has got a pretty good idea what the Tory-DUP deal will actually look like..
https://twitter.com/imajsaclaimant/status/876585751030489088
BBC Scotland gimpery in action. Reform Holyrood, just no SNP views mentioned, at all. What a bunch
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-40330058
Other news, Scottish FM Ruth Davidson’s gone into hiding after the Grenfell horror.
2014, First Minister Davidson voted against all building safety regs, in the Housing (Scotland) Act, which was passed in 2014, despite FM Ruth’s nae, nae, thrice nae voting. Maybe not thrice nae but Ruth’s on her summer hols this week and she does deserve a nice wee break having won the general election in Scotland for the tories, a few days back?
ps. Chair of reforming Holyrood committee is also a BBC Scotland ligger too. Right into the heart of Scottish democracy worms beeb Scotland. Wonder what kind of reform this dude is rather keen on, only beeb Scotland employs should be allowed to vote in their Scotland region no doubt.
https://parliamentaryreform.scot/about-us/
Mornin’ Nana.
Yesterday went pretty much as expected then and at least some in the media have shown some awareness that all is not going according to prior soundbite.
It’s going to get worse. If they think yesterday was humiliating for UK gov, that’s as nothing to the final settlement that is heading their way. They should at least now be fully aware of the fact that the settlement is going to hit long before any renegotiation of relationships.
Not as if folk weren’t warned.
Breeks says:
19 June, 2017 at 12:23 pm
“What the actual f__k? Listening to Radio 2 with Ed Milliband presenting a show. BBC still a charitable care facility for retired Labour Party has beens?”
Wait until next week, apparently Iain Duncan-Smith is sitting in for Jeremy Vine. That should be interesting, IDC has the bonhomie and character of a wet sponge…
Links for brexit – can’t beat a bit of comfort food. Thanks Nana.
McTernan’s first and only victory, One game to love in the first EU v UK set, the bagel’s on.
LOL
Holy fcuk, that Parliamentary reform committee is stuffed to the gunnels with very hard core tories.
Jackson Carlaw MSP
Jackson has been an MSP since 2007
Geoff Mawdsley
Commission on Parliamentary Refrom Geoff is currently the Director of Reform Scotland, an independent,
John Edward
John Edward – Commission on Parliamentary reform John is currently the Director of the Scottish Council of Independent Schools
Jeremy Purvis
Jeremy Purvis was the Scottish Liberal Democrat MSP for Tweeddale, Ettrick & Lauderdale (2003-2011
Jeremy is a member of the House of Lords International Relations Committee, Executive Committee member of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association (UK) and a member of the Executive Committee of the British Group of the Inter Parliamentary Union.
Oh well, Johanne Lamont’s also in there. When you wonder sometimes why we’re still bettertogether, its probably because UKOK “reformers” like the above are so in to reforming n shit.
https://parliamentaryreform.scot/about-us/
John McCormick (Chair) what do you want to “reform” in Scotland Jhohno?
“He joined the BBC Education Department in 1970 as Education Officer, liaising with schools and helping to develop the policy and strategy for education programmes. In 1982 he became a member of BBC Scotland’s management team as Secretary and Head of Corporate Affairs and in 1987 moved to London on his appointment as Secretary of the BBC, responsible to the Chairman and Director-General for the governance of the organisation while acting as the link with the appropriate Government department on BBC matters. He returned to Scotland in 1992 and served as Controller [Chief Executive] until 2004, responsible for all BBC activities in Scotland.”
How frightfully rad:D
@Macart
My fear is they walk off in the huff and with the help of the rabid media everything EU and Scotland will be badddd.
What worries me most is what the tories are plotting behind closed doors. I think Holyrood reform will be high on the list.
@Chick ‘links for brexit’ very good, lol
Listening to the Northern Irish editor of the Daily Record on GMS commebting on the DUP “support” for Tory Brexit I was amazed at the subtle anti SNP propaganda. It started with the comment .”decline in support for the SNP” and declined thereafter.
Heedy
“Jackson has been an MSP since 2007”
So has Carlaw. 🙂
Breeks 6.51am. Well put.
@Nana
Possibly, but it’s such an obvious and weak ploy at this stage. It’s a strategy they’ve used so very many times – blame opposition for your own catastrophic failures and project with the amps turned up to eleven.
Yesterday was an exercise in humiliation for UK gov and it was public. It’s action and consequence. Should they walk out, it will get far worse and far, far more public. They’d be pursued through international courts for the settlement and they’d lose. Big, noisy and all over the place.
They should have come clean with the UK public long since, but UK politics being what it is? Their own nature simply wouldn’t permit it.
Westminster will be Westminster.
Containing and controlling Scottish democracy and our rights as a partner has always been high on Westminster’s agenda. Now more than ever I’d say. How and ever their grasp is coming unglued one finger tip at a time about now as their control of UK politics period, is turning into a class on chaos theory.
So, not quite yet for SG action, but soon I’d say. Whites of their eyes stuff. When it becomes absolutely, publicly clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that following the Westminster system has led to catastrophic economic and societal failure. That their cunning plan, was in fact no plan, but pure self interest. THAT is when people will seriously be willing to consider the life raft that has always been at their disposal.
Mr Mundell said he can see no circumstances for an indyref before 20121. He NEVER said one after the 20121 election.
I’ve told youse Tory strategy: run down the time on this Holyrood term and make sure the SNP / Greens don’t get enought MSPs to vote through another indyref.
Even if they did get enough MSPs, no indyref until support for indy drops and the Union can survive another indyref.
That’s Tory plans,
The SNP said they will follow that plan of waiting till Brexit is known. Unless they change their minds, and assert Scottish sovereignty you know what the plans are.
Dance to the Tories’ tune.
@Robert Peffers at 1:16am
Many thanks and much admiration for your articles on Scottish Sovereignty.
A question: Historically is there any formal definition of what constitutes the “people of Scotland”? Is it residence or birth or whatever?
News just in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8yjNbcKkNY
@COLIN ALEXANDER says: 20 June, 2017 at 8:58 am:
“The SNP said they will follow that plan of waiting till Brexit is known. Unless they change their minds, and assert Scottish sovereignty you know what the plans are.
Dance to the Tories’ tune.”
I’ve no idea where you are coming from, Colin, but wherever it is you are up to your ears in pure unionist propaganda shite.
I’ve repeatedly said there is no need to follow the Tory agenda and no need to rush into an indyref that we aren’t ready for.
Progress can be made by asserting Scottish sovereignty , Scottish democracy, within the Union.
The UK Govt has to go with it or be seen to oppose Scottish democracy within the Union.
Brexit and Scotland can be the test case for Scotland’s sovereignty to be asserted and accepted or rebuffed.
Hold a referendum on Scotland’s Govt right to negotiate for Scotland and that the Scottish Parliament must ratify any Brexit deal.
@Nana 7.48
Item 3 on UK Brexit objectives-
Strengthen the union.
Given there are only two in this Union, it’s an open threat.
More than a week on, and I feel worse about our prospects.
No question in my mind it will be in the great Repeal bill.
Re the tragic London fire and the ever developing scandal of the action/inaction of Kensington & Chelsea Council suggestions have been made that the council were operating a de facto ethnic cleansing exercise as part of their housing policy.
I am surprised, therefore that our wonderful media seem to have forgotten the actions of Tesco Heiress Lady Porter when she was Queen Bee at Westminster Council in the glory days of the Blessed Margaret.
In that case there was absolutely no doubt as to whether that council were operating an ethnic cleansing policy and if I remember correctly Lady Porter fled to Israel to avoid prosecution.
@ Colin Alexander
You’re not wrong Colin, but not joining all the dots. To paraphrase what you’re saying, we should assert Scottish Sovereignty to make a claim for Scottish Sovereignty. But if we can already make that sovereign assertion, then laying claim to our sovereignty with a view to recovering it, is recovering something we’ve already got. What you’re saying is kinda correct, but it is also a UDI.
Now this constitutional dogs breakfast might yet have to resolve itself in some kind of UDI, or at least some similar unilateral assertion of sovereignty, but for the moment, there is a problem jumping in with both feet. Like it or not, the most recent expression of constitutional democracy was an explicit mandate against independence, and that technicality leaves any immediate UDI vulnerable to challenge as undemocratic, which opens the door to being challenged, and failing to secure the all important international recognition.
Yes, we know, that Scotland’s constitutional circumstances have changed since 2014, and that change warrants another referendum, but falls short of warranting an arbitrary overturning of the 2014 result. We are a constitutional democracy, and we, SNP government included, are doing things by the book.
The expression UDI is inflammatory for some people. So let’s keep the peace and call it an “affirmation of sovereignty”. This affirmation of sovereignty you’re calling for doesn’t mean a thing while there is an equal and opposite affirmation of non-sovereignty represented by No voters in Scotland. But this also cuts the bone of the argument. It doesn’t matter if there’s a majority in favour of sovereign independence or against it, because sovereignty is not a democratic variable, it’s a constitutional absolute.
Scotland does have constitutional sovereignty, but the Battle of Scotland so to speak is the battle for control over that sovereignty, and that is where democracy has to play its part.
There is however a complication, or rather an anomaly with that nice tidy constitutional formula. It isn’t technically the same argument about sovereignty, but it just looks very much like it. You see having sovereignty or not having sovereignty doesn’t automatically change the argument about Westminster. That is whether Scotland, complete with sovereignty expressed through the MP’s it elects, does or does not have that sovereignty compromised by the Act of Union.
Do you see the distinction?
Question 1 Does Scotland have the sovereign power to act unilaterally? That’s a yes, and there isn’t actually a great deal of dispute about it. But we have to decide to do it, and in 2014 we chose not to. It’s daft, but our sovereign decision was to remain subjugated, so we are now prisoners of our own sovereign will.
Question 2 Is the principle Scotland’s absolute sovereignty compatible with England’s absolute sovereignty to create a unified “joined” sovereignty? The short answer is no, but Westminster has fudged that into a yes by subjugating the Scottish ingredient.
The first answer ends the Union through constitutional democracy, but we have to vote for it.
The second answer ends the Union by exposing it as an oxymoron; if you can combine two “absolutes” into one absolute, then those two component parts cannot be absolute. The absolute sovereignty of Scotland’s people is irreconcilable in Union with the absolute Sovereignty of England’s divine monarch and parliament. Westminster is built upon a principle that cannot properly exist.
To boil it down and see what lies at the bottom of the pan, put all the “gibbons” to one side a moment, Scotland needs our democratic “switch” flicked from the No majority of 2014 into a Yes majority, and when that Yes majority prevails, then our ancient Sovereignty will kick in and put our decision to be a sovereign power at the centre of a constitutional fortress which cannot be assailed by anyone. We will be a sovereign nation in charge of our own affairs, and the Act of Union will be clobbered under a ton of bricks.
There is a Plan B however. Destroy the Act of Union through its inherent lack of legal competency. If the law declared it impossible to combine two incompatible absolute sovereignties into one, then the Act of Union becomes a contract that is unenforceable, and an unenforceable contract becomes void. You might get your sovereign Independence, but be left with two acrimonious countries facing the common problem of 300 years of reverse constitutional engineering.
Listen up Scotland. We have a constitutional referendum a few clicks off the starboard bow. We have to win it. Thank you. That is all.
Gibbons???
I could swear I typed gubbins.
COLIN ALEXANDER @ 09:18,
Slagging off the SNP as Tory dancing partners is such a pathetic reversion to cheap Labourite sloganising. =yawn= More evidence of your great party revival =ahem= that we are not hearing about.
I can believe though that Mundell doesn’t want a referendum until “20121”. Though even that is probably a bit on the optimistic side. =grin=
(Oh, and we get your name – there’s no need to shout.)
@Breeks says: 20 June, 2017 at 11:19 am:
“Gibbons???
I could swear I typed gubbins”
You probably did type gubbins, Breeks. You also probably have not turned off predictive text and your machine is predicting that you meant to type gibbons because it isn’t programmed to understand English slang or to understand the Scottish Language.
If you are using MS Edge the settings can be changed by clicking the three wee dots on the top RH corner, selecting Settings then scroll down to Advanced settings. It comes under use page predictions.
And to explain my own thinking a little further…
I believe the SNP should be using the law, the Court of Session, and Scotland’s inalienable sovereignty to outflank Westminster about broadcasting. Take back control of Broadcasting, not to disrupt of shut down the BBC, but to add Scottish sovereign broadcasting.
Use Scotland’s inalienable sovereignty to level the broadcasting playing field, circumvent the BBC’s propaganda, and afford Scotland the peace, tranquility, and privilege of a dispassionate, rigorous and objective analysis of the pros and cons of our part in the UK, before holding a vote to enact whatever decision we come to.
Yes, I can see Westminster challenging Scottish Free News, and threatening retribution upon Holyrood, but constitutionally, we are within our rights, and internationally, we are pursuing a human right of self expression inside the borders of our own country. For all Westminster currently holds broadcasting as a reserved matter, if Scotland was take the right to broadcast for itself, I cannot imagine what court would authorise and legitimise the hegemony of external propaganda over internal freedom of expression. We do not injure the BBC in any way. We allow it to speak unfettered and free. All we would demand is parity for ourselves to broadcast what we want.
Secure broadcasting, explain to all the dangerous, reckless, idiocy of Brexit, and when we are ready Scotland, let us hurdle the ScotRef referendum at the gallop.
Come on SNP. Do it. It has to be you. Do it.
@ gus1940
Shirley Porter was surcharged, and transferred her assets to avoid paying; she then mysteriously managed to buy a flat for £1.5 million.
Details here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirley_Porter#Homes_for_votes_scandal
Gibbons!
Works fine for me.
Peace Always even for Gibbons
🙂
Thanks Mr Peffers.
It’s not so much a spell checker I need, it’s a proof reader with garden cane, and sharp wrap on the knuckles for all the typos, missing words, and other errors I just cannot avoid, which are thoroughly invisible to me no matter how many times read what I’ve written. They are truly invisible until I press “submit comment” whereupon they instantly appear.
I don’t know if it’s carelessness or there’s something actually wrong with me. But it has always been thus.
@COLIN ALEXANDER says: 20 June, 2017 at 9:18 am:
” I’ve repeatedly said there is no need to follow the Tory agenda and no need to rush into an indyref that we aren’t ready for.”
All very true, Colin, but, as Frank Sinatra sang, “And then You go and spoil it all by saying something stupid”, like a load of Westminster Establishment brainwashing propaganda.
First of all the SNP/SG already has a mandate for another referendum at the time of their choosing. This came from it being stated in their manifesto in an election they won with an almost wipe out of all unionist parties put together.
It was then reaffirmed by the Scottish Parliament almost unanimously voting for it in the debating chamber. They followed that by actually winning the local council elections and then again by winning the recent General Election.
Yet here you are having sopped up the Westminster fake news that the above election wins were not only a great failure for the SNP but they claimed them as great victories for the unionists.
Facts:-
The SNP had a majority in the Holyrood election. What they did not get was an overall majority over THE COMBINED UNIONIST PARTIES. Thing is they do not need to have a majority over every other party to win the election and form the government.
Did the previous Tory Government win a majority at Westminster by having an overall majority over all other parties at Westminster? The answer is that they did not and they have now, by idiotically calling a snap election now barely scraped a majority over the next largest party.
I’m not criticising your motives or commitment or your motives, Colin. I’m criticising your susceptibility to falling for Unionist propaganda and lies.
The SG/SNP have a clear mandate from a majority of the Scottish voters and the SNP won very well the council election, the Holyrood election and the Scottish share of the Westminster election. The propaganda that the lost all three is very obviously total bullshit.
Nicola has a mandate to call a referendum at the time of her choosing and she needs no permissions from Westminster to do so.
@Aikenheed says: 20 June, 2017 at 9:09 am:
“A question: Historically is there any formal definition of what constitutes the “people of Scotland”? Is it residence or birth or whatever?”
It most certainly has never been country of birth nor of your parentage. The Bruce was a Norman Knight by inheritance of his male parentage but he had a mother of Royal Gaelic parentage.
The only organisations that used place of birth were the sports regulation bodies such as the Scottish Football Association. Even they have changed that particular definition.
The accepted definition of those classed as eligible to vote on Scottish matters is that they be mainly resident in Scotland and have registered to vote in Scottish elections.
The long established SNP definition has been accepted as, “”Those of any creed, colour or country of origin who are mainly resident in Scotland and are registered to vote in Scottish elections.”
I take it that also includes paying tax levied in Scotland and I do not just need income Tax and other direct taxes. The most important tax take for a considerable time now has been from indirect taxation and everyone pays indirect tax.
VAT being the main tax burden with other indirect tax coming from Road Fuel Duty, Betting Tax, Duty on Alcohol and Tobacco and so on.
Basically what is being said is if you are mainly resident in Scotland and actively contribute to taxation and take the trouble of voting, and thus contributing to the governance of Scotland, you are one of the People of Scotland.
There is a lot of data here:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_Scotland#National_identity
Nana,thanks for your links just after 7am.
For me,here’s one that really does stand out:
http://www.ericjoyce.co.uk/2017/06/a-very-special-special-adviser-indeed/
Eric Joyce responding to a reader’s comment:
“…..Moreover, he [John McTernan] represents a train of thought prevent within Scottish Labour’s present leadership that it’s better to have a Tory UK government than an independent Scottish one to the extent that they would rather be in league with the Tories than in any kind of relationship with the SNP.”
Eric certainly doesn’t pull his punches.
I say this as an ex-Labour voter.
Robert, Aikenheed
If I remember correctly I think Scottish citizenship entitlement in an independent Scotland as proposed by the SNP also extended to those currently oversees but who were born here and their children (as per most countries citizenship requirements).
“and none of that kind of evidence will ever be accepted as evidence when these matter inevitably end up in the international courts.”
You’ve got to it at last. What is the national entity that international courts and other international bodies recognise? You will find that, in international courts, the country that we live in is the United Kingdom.
You need to move on from the last millennium and see oursels as ithers see us.
@Robert Peffers 20 June 2017 12.15pm
What makes you think I dispute the Scot Govt’s mandate for an indyref? Of course they have the mandate. It’s when and how they use that mandate that’s important.
Of course they have the mandate – the mandate from the Scottish electorate.
If the UK oppose a democratic mandate, it would look very bad for the UK Govt. That’s why I’m saying if there is a clear mandate for sovereignty within the Union, the mandate for Scotland to decide Scotland’s EU / Brexit situation, that would also be hard for the UK Govt to stop without looking like an anti-Scottish WM dictatorship.
That mandate should be asserted. The UK is either forced to accept Scotland’s sovereignty or deny it and reject it.
That puts the UK in a no-win situation. They must either accept UK sovereignty and concede power to the Scottish Govt / Parliament
or risk an indyref AFTER they have just snubbed all attempts to reach agreement within the Union.
If the UK Govt won’t be reasonable – the Scot Govt can’t force them to do something.
Such contempt for Scottish sovereignty within the Union will hopefully give the independence campaign many more votes from former NO voters who would be disgusted at such anti-democratic actions and such anti-democratic actions that are economically damaging for Scotland regarding Brexit.
Going down this route keeps YES voters as YES voters – as their anger and contempt at the anti-Scottish democratic snub would hopefully make this much more than a EU issue- as some YES voters also support leaving the EU.
If this was all about the EU only, there’s no guaranteed these Yessers would back the Scot Govt’s pro European stance.
Clearly many NO voters are pro-European as 62% of the electorate voted Remain. Only 45% voted YES.
Also, it’s possible enough NO voters are open-minded and the anti-Scottish democracy stance of the Uk Govt may be enough to convince them to vote YES next time – if all attempts at Scottish sovereignty, democracy and equality within the Union ends in snub after snub.
agree