Wings Over Scotland

I think the heat is coming from all the bridges that have been burned!
Peace Always

Raining where we are – keeping the flames at bay!

I wonder how long it will take our negotiating team to realise that it takes two to negotiate.

The only negotiating our team will be doing is with the British people as they try to persuade us that they have achieved something or scored a point.

I think the process is going to be embarrassing.

Mad dogs and Englishmen, maybe it does have something to do with the Sun or anything to do with Murdoch newspapers.

I wonder if the UK negotiation team will be dressed in clown fancy dress costumes.

Kenny MacAskill (ex Justice) and Alex Neil (ex Health?) were re shuffled by Nicola. They have to accept the majority decision on Brexit. Independence campaign etc.Democratic. Voted for by the members at the Conference. Voted for by the majority of voters in Scotland. After the Unionist promises were broken. 2014. Deceit, hypocrisy, dishonesty and lies. Dishonourable behaviour. Not fit for public office. Breaking the code of public conduct and the ministerial code of Office. On Oath.

Brexit is predicated on a LIE that we can cherry pick the aspects of the EU membership we wish to keep. 1 year after vote and we still don’t have any consensus what UK actually wants from negotiations.

The UK government have a massive problem – if they declare UK seeks a soft / hard brexit or customs union then the LIE is exposed. Any negation with other nations involves compromise. Brexit has been sold to the nation by Boris Johnson and pals on the basis we can have cake and eat it.

NOW : if only there had been a published manifesto / white paper for leave…

This isn’t going to end well. Likely UK crashes out of the negotiating process with no future trad deal triggering another general election.

@Smallaxe

I reckon it’d save them time if they stuck that on permaloop in the negotiating room today. 🙂

David Davis does think he is offering a compromise. We want to leave the EU but as it was a narrow vote we have decided to be flexible and agree to retain all the free trading agreements but obviously none of the legal obligations and as for free movement you can just gtf. If you want to be associated with Empire2.0 you need to submit to our requirements.

Legs on fire. Tories legging it and Brexiting it. Chasing all around the houses. It would be so funny if it wasn’t so tragic. Bonfire of the vanities. This could take years with no outcome. The Tories will negotiated a settlement which will cost more with less rights. Then try to sell it as some victory. With the right wing MSM support. Bringing down the world economy. Nothing surer. Par for the course.

Get ready for the next IbdyRef. Sooner rather than later. This farce will push it over the edge. It just needs Boris as PM as predicted. Eerie.

Weird weather. Some folk are hiding from it.

At the time of the French revolution. There was weird, unusual weather. The wind blew off the sea, Wrong way. (Mistral) There were unusual storms. Hail stones fell like golf balls. Extreme unusual weather. The storming of the Bastille. The population were starving, depressed and repressed. A population expansion (like migration? ) Increased births had led to unavailable of cultivation plots. People grew their own. The plots were getting smaller as the population increased and the division (inherited) available decreased. No land rights. Restricted. Famine and starvation. Liberty, equality and fraternity. The King deposed. The guilty guillotined. The reign of terror.

Macron has won a huge victory against the right.

We are cool in Scotland. Edinburgh/Scotland ranked the best world destination.Tourism and investment. Independence in the EU. Our continental mates against dominance. The Auld Alliiance etc. Scottish invention and enterprise, philosophy changed the world. Scotland has friends all over Europe and the world. Appreciated by lots of people. Food, drink, energy, tartan, tourism, education, medicine music, film, literature and lots of products. To be proud. Open for business.

Smallaxe @ 9.29
Mair like Pennywise the clown,with a mythical mission.

liz g;
Pennywise, as you say is mythical, J.W.Gacy was real and like this union, killed a lot of people.

Peace Always my dear Friend

“No deal would be a very, very bad outcome for Britain, but there is a possible worse outcome and that is a deal that is deliberately structured to suck the lifeblood out of our economy over a period of time,” Hammond told the Andrew Marr show – he forgot to say ‘like Westminster has done to Scotland for 300 years.’

The information filtering out seems to be that the UK is going for the Norway model

Funny, when Nicola Sturgeon put that idea forward it was deemed as unworkable nonsense
I suppose it’s because she’s just that stupid dangerous Scottish woman who said it and not the genius Tories who said it first, and now they’ll say that’s not what she said so shut up Scottish people and please go away so we can just get on with running London, I mean England, Oh, I mean you other folk as well

Bloody Jocks always wanting to be included in English business (sigh)

Dr Jim, doesn’t the Norway model mean accepting freedom of movement? Now, 3,000 miles of ocean may blur things a bit for me, but wasn’t that a major reason why people voted leave?

I have felt since the vote that Brexit wouldn’t happen. It seems that, in essence, the Brexit negotiating team is working towards that. How courageous.

mogabee @ 9.33am
Thank goodness the EU is making all the negotiations public because I do not trust the UK gov. one iota.

and to coin a phrase “they’ll be doing it deliberately” Lol

I think Scotland has many friends in Europe – and we’re going to need them – soon.

Off-topic:

Rev says he’s on holiday but it’s probably still worth mentioning here. Maybe it’s the heat that’s got to Kirsty Strickland?

link to twitter.com

One journalist making a tweet like that I can put down to a mistake on her part, does anyone happen to know if she has access to the WomenForIndy twitter as well though?

link to twitter.com

Just listened to that GMS interview with Catherine Stihler and (soon to be Lord ) Ian Duncan MEP. Who does SLab’s media training? Stihler’s answers were painful, tremulous, fractious and she constantly talked past the point.

Ian Duncan really needs his adenoids seen to, some serious mouth breathing going on. Otherwise, he seems to assume Brexit is going to be a walk in the park. Shades of David Davis arrogance.

Seems Kirsty Stricklan has seen some sense and deleted her tweet about the incident at Finsbury Park being “Male Violence”.

Hopefully that WomenForIndy account will do the same.

”Large parts of the country are essentially already on fire.”

I’ve been watching the latest news on the terrorist attack in London last night. The situation is at boiling point in London (areas all over England) with the potential for riots to break out to the point that the Police would be unable to deal with it. Reporters have been asking people what can be done about it. One individual after another has been saying that the MSM has a great deal to answer for due to creating divisions and scapegoating Muslims, foreigners in general. One Muslim man outlined NUMEROUS extremely positive experiences where Muslims, Christians and Jews etc have been coming together that hasn’t been reported by the BBC and so on. Will the Government take this onboard and do something about it before England implodes?

Iain @ 9.40. Same here in the Badajoz region of Spain, 40°+ atm!

The start of Independence day, yah who, Scottish jobs for Scottish born workers, close the border for 5 years chuck out the non brits as soon as their out of work. Bring on protectionism look after us first. If we fall off the cliff well great we will ensure that the 3 million EU citizens keep our jobs god its good to be a Brit is this day and age, second class people in our own country. Funny thing the EU it was not that long ago they told us we were not welcome(2014) remember guys they don’t care about us we are cannon fodder. Role on hardest brexit possible I did not vote to be half in half out, all out for me.

For once the weather hype isn’t hype.

Topped out at 33.6C here in Leics, not quite the 34.4C we saw in May but bloody hot all the same. Currently 29.7C but clouding over so humidity is increasing rapidly. These are temps measured in the shade by our back door.

Seems to be the norm these days, we’ve had temperatures above 34C every year since 2012, prior to that anything above 32C was pretty rare.

Every month this year (bar January) has been between 1.8-2.9C above the Central England Temperature averages for 1971-2000.

Whatever we’ve done to the planet seems to be accelerating at a rate of knots 🙁

Phil on 19 June, 2017 at 11:30 am

Hence all the guff in previous week or two from tRuthless & Mundell about Tories elected at the General Election will only represent ‘No’ voters and their interests etc.

The SNP should object in the strongest terms possible, if that’s what happens, that Duncan (or whoever) is not representative of the vast majority of Scotland’s electorate when it comes to the issue of the European Union etc.

Anyway, i’ve got my copious supply of Skittles and Scottish Blend at the ready, let the show commence!

What the actual f__k? Listening to Radio 2 with Ed Milliband presenting a show. BBC still a charitable care facility for retired Labour Party has beens?

What happened to the good old days when people had to have equity cards, objectivity, and indeed a modicum of talent to get a cushy job on the Propaganda Channel? I want my Propaganda from a professional propagandist, not some loser who makes his living from public money.

Better get on topic now. I hear clumpity clump of hammers… Unless that’s Ed droppin’ the mic.

That map above looks spot on. Apparently France is pretty keen on Brexit too. Who knew???

Michel Barnier Article 50 negotiations with the United Kingdom
1st phase of negotiations will tackle 3 main areas: safeguarding the rights of citizens; financial settlement of the UK’s obligations and the new external borders of the EU.

video here

link to ec.europa.eu

The Party that the majority in Scotland voted for will be cut out of any negotiations? How will that work. When the majority in Scotland/UK want to stay in the EU full membership It will break EU/Internstional Law, which the EU is committed to upheld. Including for Scottish citizens It would be declared void and illegal under EU Law. Any agreement would not hold up, in Law. Including Scottish Law which has to be kept separate forever under the terms of the Act of Union agreement. Otherwise without agreement the Union is abolished. The terms can’t be changed without agreement between Scottish and English representatives.

It will bring Independence in EU (full) Even closer. The SNP Scottish Gov will do their own separate negotiations with the EU Officials. Otherwise it would be declared null and void under ECHR which all member States have to agree to and adhere.

An IndyRef must be held quite soon. To maintain the full rights of people in Scotland and their right to chose. Not be dragged out of the EU against their will.

Re Ian Duncan, MEP.
The reward for failure in UK politics is usually promotion or ennoblement. Because of this you can see more Liberal Democrats in the House of Lords than you are ever likely to encounter in normal company.

@Andy.D says: 19 June, 2017 at 11:41 am:

Idiot alert!

Idiot alert!

Idiot alert!

Walking on Sunshine wrote on 19 June, 2017 at 12:28 pm

“If and when the Brexit talks come to an end, the whole of Scotland will be clambering for an escape route.”

Don’t be surprised if there’s a ‘Brexit exit’ (aka; stalling) before it even gets started. I’m away to feed the birds in the sun.
😉

@sensibledave says: 19 June, 2017 at 12:21 pm:

Sensibledave’s usual pish.

In a democracy the whole country makes up the majority.

The United KINGDOM is not a country.

@Stoker says: 19 June, 2017 at 12:49 pm:

“I’m away to feed the birds in the sun.”

Hopefully you’re not feeding the birds to the local cats.

Lifted off Twitter… Not new, but priceless.

Replying to @davidallengreen
EU lays down a royal flush. UK looks at own cards: Mr Bun the Baker, Pikachu, a Shadowmage, a fireball spell, and the Fool.”

@Capella 12:34
So Old Maid Theresa, the human Enigma machine, is keeping her negotiating positions Top Secret, while the EU has a dedicated website to provide the World with a rolling commentary on what’s happening in the Brexit negotiations. Excellent.

I like this man Barnier. His sense of humour appeals to me.

Robert Peffers;

Spotted, sir, and I for one am proud of the restraint shown by all wingers who are scrolling on past. One would hope a heart could become as soft as a brain in certain circumstances.

Peace, Love and Respect Sensai Peffers

Robert Peffers 12:53 pm

You wrote “In a democracy the whole country makes up the majority. The United KINGDOM is not a country.”

… the Usual irrelevant guff from you Mr Peffers. The EUreferendum was a UK wide referendum that gave equal rights to every UK citizen in the constituencies that make up the United Kingdom Parliament at Westminster (which Scots voted to remain part of and, based upon the most recent information available, they haven’t changed their mind). There is no “regionality” effect of the results of UK referendum as you, quite rightly, point out at the drop of a hat (which is why South Oxfordshire will Brexit together with Scotland – even though a majority in both of the regions/areas/countries voted Remain (contrary to the Rev’s map).

Please ask of you would like further lessons on the UK constitution and democracy in action, my mission, as always, is to educate and inform.

Robert Peffers @ 1.07
I think yer right Robert….but look and don’t touch eh!

There’s a dignified satisfaction in that don’t ye think?

It will be fun to see despiration kick in.
That’s information I would be interested in being informed of?

Crime is a gender issue. Most (violent) is committed by men. Women do not commit much crime. They are the victims. An average of 100 are killed each year by violent men. Men are four times more likely to be killed by other males. On average 400 killed each year. Psychological. Most (violent) crime is committed by (16) 18 to 24 year old males against each other, while under the influence of drink or drugs. Drink/drug abuse/addiction. is a main cause of crime. Car accidents. Death on the roads. 18 to 25 years old (10%) cause 25% of accidents. Women are more likely to internalise stress etc.and get depressed. Men are more likely to get angry and lash out. Externalise stress and feelings. Financial power and dominance can be used as an illegitimate form of control.

Total abstinence, proper rehab counselling is cheaper and more cost effective than prison.

What happened to minimum pricing? It could help the SNHS and public services. Save public money. The Unionists would not agree. It did go through the courts and was agreed.

Phil Robertson,
Surely you don’t begrudge the Scottish People clarifying their position regarding Scotland’s place in this new political world?

@Robert Peffers
“We must be getting close to the disuniting of the United Kingdom. The usual suspects have arrived in force on Wings very early today to defend their despicable union.”

It seems more than coincidental to me that when the Scottish Social Attitudes Survey (Prof Curtice et al) was published in March showing a clear lead for independence over the Union that May suddenlt decided in April to have a GE.

The UK Govt hand is weaker than ever.

This is the time for the ScotGovt to increase the pressure. Insist again Scotland can negotiate its EU / Single Market place

or

Scotland will have a referendum seeking the democratic mandate that the Scottish Govt represents the Scottish part of the UK in Brexit negotiations.

If the ScotGovt is given that mandate the UK Govt cannot refuse that ScotGovt mandate. To refuse it would be to refuse Scottish democracy.

To refuse that Scottish democratic mandate would probably hasten the end of the Union.

Phil Robertson says:
19 June, 2017 at 12:59 pm
“Glad to hear that you accept the result of the independence referendum.”

Everybody accepted that result Phil, otherwise there’d have been a UDI or revolution in 2014. We were robbed, we were cheated, we were betrayed, but the odious result was accepted; accepted, but respected by neither betrayed YES voters nor the liars and cheats who betrayed them. Nothing was settled, no issue or grievance laid to rest.

That 2014 result was based upon vows and commitments which were false, falsehoods that were never honoured, and the result itself became fully and formally obsolete once the Brexit Referendum was held, and doubly obsolete when that referendum was lost in England but firmly won in Scotland.

Face it Phil, the only reason Unionism clings so desperately to the 2014 result is because the sheer volume and quantity of bullshit, lies and propaganda required to win in 2014 was on such a cathedral-like magnitude and scale that make it very unlikely to be repeated. Unionism won the vote, but completely sold out its integrity to do so, and the Unionist box of tricks looks pretty bare and shabby for ScotRef doesn’t it?

Unionists fixate on the 2014 YES referendum the way England fixates on the 1966 World Cup. It’s old news but all you’ve got to crow about.

@Breeks
“Unionists fixate on the 2014 YES referendum the way England fixates on the 1966 World Cup. It’s old news but all you’ve got to crow about.”

Are you saying the Russians interfered in the 2014 ref as well? 🙂

Uh huh.

You know, today of all days, we really don’t need the distractions IMV.

The politics of the UK is in chaos. Full on, full tilt, train wreck mode. The UKs populations and society are fractured beyond obvious means of repair. There is very real economic misery, depression and hardship wherever you look, and this in a 21st century union awash with wealth. The priorities of the Westminster system of government have never been more transparent, or more exposed. What they themselves have done to the populations of the UK, never more apparent.

So make a choice on who you’d rather spend your time reading or talking to.

If there are those who cause you distress when reading, please walk on by and look for a familiar and friendlier face. Look to where you’ll find a warm welcome, an intelligent and reasoned comment or insight. Or mibbies just a silly joke or a kind word when the world is caving in around you.

Life’s too short and we’re too damn busy trying to get through it in one piece.

Leave any policing to the author. If you don’t like the cut of a poster, then move on as soon as you see the name. A couple of comments is all it takes to size someone up in your own opinion as worth your time or not. Find friends and faces you can talk to, or take informed comment from and above all…

… ensure you enjoy the experience.

Most folk here are friends or friendly (shouty fallouts among said friends aside) and the vast majority want exactly the same thing. To make where we live a better, more sustainable, peaceful, ‘strong and stable???’ (cough) place for everyone. A nation where fully empowered government puts food on the table. I reckon we’re capable of that.

Not a complicated wish list tbh, but I’m not a complicated guy and that idea suits me just peachy.

Right! Get on with your reading then. ?

One for Risible…

link to youtube.com

Herald comment:

If the majority in Scotland want to remain in the EU or Single Market then why should they be dragged out because England and Wales voted Leave?

Scotland isn’t forcing England and Wales to Remain. Westminster should not force Scotland to leave.

It’s supposed to be a partnership of equals, not domination by Westminster. From the start of the Union, it was clearly established, Scotland is not the same as England and those differences are to be respected.

Hence we had the Articles in the Union that highlighted Scots Law and the Church of Scotland cannot be abolished. Of course there was no EU / Single Market membership then.

However, nowadays there is. Scotland’s democratic will must be respected.

This is not yet about “Should Scotland be an independent country?”

This is about: Should Scotland’s democratic will be respected within the Union?

Of course it should. Scotland has sovereignty within the Union: it must be respected.

If Scotland wants to remain in the Single Market, that desire should be respected and accommodated in the negotiations.

If it isn’t , then it becomes more than a matter about the EU.

It then becomes: Scotltish democracy has been snubbed.

For those that believe in the benefits of the Union. Then surely they recognise that snubbing Scottish sovereignty within the Union will only drive Scotland to leave the Union.

Even the weather, try 45 for a month or two Londoners, in SEE is considered national not regional ‘news’. Therein lies the existential issue we often face as a country and nation. Marginalization. There is a point when what happens in London should cease to score on our ‘care-ometer’. It’s, whatever it might be, that region’s problem not ours, a foreign matter. There is certainly nothing that we can contribute. We have concerns of our own which even in the best of times receive short shrift from that part of the ‘United Kingdom’.

Are we out yet?

Just askin’.

Breastplate 1:41 pm

You wrote “As you’re handing out lessons on the UK constitution and democracy. Could you tell me when Scotland can have an independence referendum?”

As I understand it Breastplate, the Scottish Government passed a vote to ask for another referendum – but Ms Sturgeon no longer seems to want to say whether she actually wants a referendum or when she would want to hold one – so the question is moot.

Here’s another link to keep us up to date with Brexit negotiations

link to ec.europa.eu

Will be interesting to see whats left out by the BBC etc!

Hi sensibledave,

Could you provide a print out the UK constitution you referenced, here on Wings, so we can all be informed.

And Oblige

Northern Ireland a province? it’s a bit of somebody else’s province!

It really does give the BritNat Establishment nightmares…

link to imgur.com

Let’s make our dream come true and make their nightmare real.

TO K1 if you are about

Dan Huil above wrote “I hope the EU sticks the knife into rancid Westminster”.

Would I be being overly sensitive if interpreted that statement as the very lovely Dan Huil wishing ill will on the Parliament that governs me? Would I be wrong to interpret that statement as wishing a bad outcome from the negotiations for my fellow country folk – because he believes it will aid his political objectives?

I know, I am over-thinking things again K1!

Today the Brexit negos begin and the trolls have been sent out in force to negate, deflect, stir-up, break-up threads, anything to try and save the necks of their masters in London.

Tickety, tickety, tickety clock… 🙂

I think it’s just dawning on britnats what a disgusting mess they’ve made – and it will only get worse. Thankfully Scotland has a chance to break away from this britnat disaster. Britnats have only themselves to blame.

Nana, jings ! My money is on Michael – oor Dave looks slightly daft!

Serious question.

Brexit talks have officially begun, so officially, what part is Scotland playing in them? Are we at the table or at the keyhole?

Robert Peffers says:
19 June, 2017 at 12:53 pm

“In a democracy the whole country makes up the majority.”
Gibberish – the whole country is not the majority – it is the majority and the minority.

“The United KINGDOM is not a country.”
I think that you will find that it is.

Capella @ 3.16 pm

From Ms Sturgeon’s speech in 2012:

“”A country with a stable economy that works for the many and not just the few;…””

Now where have we heard that recently?

So it was not just the SNP policies they copied into their manifesto.

Phil,
I think that you’ll find that it isn’t

“The United KINGDOM is not a country.”
I think that you will find that it is.

So why do Scots have the sovereign right to say bye bye to England then, in this “country” Phil Robertson?

Its a funny kind of country, when near half of it can tell the other half, thanks very much but we would like Scotland to become a nation state again, if that’s alright with you.

Which clearly it is certainly not.

So here’s to you Philip Robertson, Jesus loves you more than you will know but the yew kay is not a country.

I posted this on the previous post by mistake. Here it is again, somewhat modified.

It does not seem to me so bad that Mundell now accepts an Indyref taking place in 2021, after the Scottish Holyrood elections.

He used to trot out the old ‘once in a generation’ argument, didn’t he? That means that Mundell, and all his ilk, now accept that ‘a generation’ can be once every 7 years. That’s m lot shorter time-frame than what he was previously saying.

So let’s take it – i.e. record it – (for now). And hold him to it – (for ever).

He did not even say that Indyref2 was impossible before 2021, just that he could not envisage any ‘circumstances’ in which it could take place before then. Because, he said, that would mean holding it before the Scottish people knew the terms of Brexit.

Once again, a give-away on the part of Mr. Mundell. We should be grateful – a genuine freebie! He has just told us the UK’s newly cooked strategy. Namely, they have no intention of concluding the Brexit negotiations until just before the 2021 elections in Scotland.

We may also be sure that if the polling in Scotland at that point in time (2021) looks bad for them and their fellow Brexiteers, and positive for Indy, the Tories will attempt to prolong the negotiations even further. In that ‘circumstance’, they will try to ensure that the final terms of the Brexit deal are not known until AFTER the Scottish elections of 2021. This will, they hope, minimise the effect of the deal on that election, in which the Scottish Unionist Parties will combine to prevent the SNP forming the next Scottish government.

All this presumes soemthing that will never happen, however. It presumes that the EU will tamely go along with this dastardly plan, and acquiesce in it.

But why should the EU do any such thing? Would it not have to change its own rules to do so?

My understanding – someone please correct me if I am wrong – is that there is a time limit on how long a leaving member can negotiate its exit deal. I can’t remember the exact period that is laid down – was it 18 months? Or two years? Anyway, as far as I remember, it was not more than that.

So the terms of the Brexit deal will be known by 2019, at the latest, as Nicola S has continually pointed out. And that is why she wants Indyref2 at that point in time. The chancers – even within the SNP – who are now trumpeting this point as if it was they who invented it, when Nicola has been saying it all along, must be – well – not much more than that: just chancers!

Nicola’s temporarily self-imposed silence is drawing them out of the woodwork – these chancers – so everyone can see them for what they are. And she does not even have to say a word – not even a word of criticism. And ostensible good relations can be fully maintained. But I am sure she is taking note …. Always good to know who is really with you, and who might not be … And good to let them identify themselves … the simplest way, in fact.

Now, to return to the point: Would all 27 EU nations unanimously agree to let the UK drag its feet interminably on the negotiations?

For something that UK unionists see as profitable to them, but which brings the EU nothing?

Why should the EU change its rules just to suit some internal agenda of some UK political faction(s) – the UK unionist Parties – when it profits the EU nothing? Or nothing much, at least.

The EU negotiators might even perceive that agenda as contrary to their own EU interests. Instead of encouraging Scotland to remain in the UK they might very well prefer to give Scotland the chance of benefits that would encourage her to leave the UK and stay on course for becoming a full member of the EU, in her own right.

Even without that consideration, I can’t imagine the likes of France just rolling over and allowing the UK’s BritNat Brexiteers to carry on their political game-playing indefinitely, for no purpose that would be to the EU’s advantage. Aren’t they more likely to hold the UK government to account, and to the timetable it set for itself, by its own volition, when it freely triggered the Brexit process in March 2017.

Hasn’t the EU suffered enough delay as it is. Don’t forget David Cameron promised to trigger Brexit the day after the referendum if Leave won the day … And, lo and behold, it took 9 months to reach ‘the day after …’ The EU is not going to hang around for ever.

Indeed, I can imagine France insisting that the foreseen time-frame be strictly adhered to. And if the UK does not like it, or fails to reach agreement within the time marked out, it will just have to leave without any deal at all.

After all, why should France worry about a ‘no deal’ result being contrary to the best interests of the UK? As Mr. Hammond so candidly admitted it would be on television on Sunday …

No deal for the UK might even be a very good deal for France, and for some other European countries as well. And the UK could not complain that France is being unfair if that is the outcome. It was the UK that triggered Brexit, not France. And Mrs May knew the rules very well (including the timetable) when she did so.

‘You did not manage it on time – well, sorry chum, stuff you!’ Feet-draggers, beware!

Make no mistake about it (and we Scots should be under no illusions in that regard either) France will do whatever is in France’s own best interests. French politicians play for France, not for the UK. (And not for Scotland either, by the way – we pride ourselves on the Auld Alliance, but it’s so auld the French forgot about it, long ago!)

I cannot imagine any ‘circumstance’ in which all 27 EU member states are going to play ball with the UK’s revised and extended timetable. The one which our dear Mr. Mundell has so kindly revealed – no one will know the deal till 2021 – just to help the UK with its own little local difficulties (with Scotland, or whatever).

No way! Contrary to Mr Mundell’s and the Tory strategists’ fantasies, that is not what the Brexit negotiations are about. Not for any of the EU member states, that is. Let the UK solve its own problems – this is about gaining economic and political advantages. For the EU, not for the UK.

And that brings me to a final point.

Why are all the UK Unionist Parties, along with their loyal Scottish collaborators, so desperate to get the SNP to drop Indyref2? And to drop it not just from the table, but even from the horizon? Which horizon, you may well ask?

The horizon of the Brexit negotiations with the EU.

They don’t want potential Scottish independence as a backdrop to what they are negotiating. They don’t even want it as distant background music. The EU negotiators are neither to see it – not even a glimpse – nor hear tell of it, not even a whisper. And the only way to ensure that is to get the SNP themselves to take it off the agenda.

The Unionists – in unison, all three Parties together – know Indyref2 will happen some time (even within 7 years according to Mundell’s predictions) but they want it to be a purely internal UK matter. Above all, it is to have nothing whatever to do with the Brexit negotiations. The last thing they want is for Indyref2 to loom over, or in any way influence, the deal they hope to make with the EU.

That in itself should be warning enough. They are determined that the outcome of the negotiations will make it very much harder for Scots to choose independence. They seem to want to decouple the two issues, but the contrary is true. The real (Tory) objective is to obtain not only the Brexit deal that they want but also to ensure it is the kind of deal that makes future Scottish independence virtually impossible.

The two objectives are intrinsically linked in their minds.

The trouble for them (not just the Tories but all the Unionist-and-Leave Parties) is that they cannot remove Indyref2 from the table / horizon / backdrop (whatever you want to call it) on their own initiative, for and by themselves.

They have to get the SNP to do it for them. That is why they are incessantly braying for the SNP to do this, and putting up all kinds of spurious arguments about the GE result to make it seem as if this would be in the SNP’s best interest, which it clearly would not, or even that they are obliged to do so. hence all the nonsense about Ruth winning the election!

If the SNP do remove Indyref2 from the agenda themselves, they will be snookered, and the Unionists will have got exactly what they want. If that happens, the potential prospect (or specter) of Scottish independence will indeed disappear from the Brexit negotiations altogether. Exactly what the Unionists want. The EU negotiators will have no option but to ignore it altogether.

But if Indyref2 remains on the table, it will be an elephant in the room that they are unable to avoid.

In that case, the prospect that Scotland might well become an independent country at the end of the Brexit process, that in that case it will seek a closer relationship with the EU than the rest of the UK, even up to the point of full membership, will play a significant role in the negotiations.

If, by contrast, the UK unionists themselves take positive action to remove the prospect of Indyref2, they know – and their EU negotiating partners will be very well aware – that they are acting in an undemocratic fashion towards Scotland. The key Scottish objective of those who called GE 2017 was to decimate the SNP, thereby demonstrating that there was no mandate for Indyref2, no matter what the Scottish parliament (and the SNP’s 2016 Holyrood manifesto) had said. It backfired: the SNP won in Scotland, and no doubt about it. Hence all the false propaganda pretending that they lost.

The UK government know that With Indyref 2 on the table at the end of the Brexit talks, and with Scotland thereby a potential member of the EU, even the EU negotiators will have a keen eye for protecting Scotland’s interests. Whatever is in Scotland’s interest could easily be perceived as being in the EU’s interest, as well. And the EU might seek to encourage Scotland to become a fully European independent country, even directing aspects of the negotiations in that line.

To be fair to the English Brexiteers, you can see why – politically speaking – they don’t want pro-Indy Scottish involvement in the negotiations. From their perspective, that is like inviting in a third column. One, of course, which they see as seeking to protect Scotland’s interests instead of England’s, or even at the expense of England’s (which these English Brexiteers identify with those of the whole of the UK).

Such is the fear. And a fear that lashes out …

This fear is palpable in the onslaught of Unionist propaganda – all of it yelling for the SNP to take the Indyref off the table – to which we and the SNP have been subjected throughout, and still more so after, the GE.

Do for us what we cannot do for ourselves, it yells. Please shoot yourself in the foot and remove Indyref2, so that we can get on with the negotiations in the way that we want, unhindered, and without having to look over our shoulders.

This Unionist fear has its reasons, but it is also irrational. Much of it arises because they see the SNP as anti-English, which it is not. They don’t realise how modern the SNp became.

Far from wanting to sink England, or England’s genuine interests, the SNP wants to help them get the best possible deal they can. That is in Scotland’s interests too. We want Scottish-English relations post-independence to be excellent, and for the border to remain an open one, which is good for everyone.

The SNP must keep Indyref2 alive, and kicking. The negotiators on all sides need to be aware of that prospect – or specter – of Scottish independence. Having that loom over the negotiations is good for Scotland and good for everyone. Whatever else, it just happens to be the reality anyway. No amount of Government and Unionist hysteria, or desire to live in cloud-cuckoo land, will in fact get rid of it. Reality is – quite simply – reality. There will be an Indyref2 some time, and Scotland will sooner or later go independent.

Keeping Indyref2 on the table, looming on the horizon and sometimes moving to the forefront, is the best way for the SNP –
and all of us – to guarantee, as far as it is possible, that Scotland’s real and best interest are protected during the negotiations.

Both the UK and the EU negotiating teams need to be kept aware of … of what? Of one of the key realities that they are in fact dealing with.

Keep it, Nicola: don’t withdraw it. Don’t wobble. Never mind if keeping it causes a measure of internal descent within your own Party: facing down the dissenters will be good for you, and good for the SNP, and for Scotland, in the long run. And even in the immediate term. Stick to the course; don’t waver.

Even England needs to have the Scottish Indyref2 looming over it, for its own ultimate good. Letting them have what they keep clamouring for would not be good for them, just as it would be very bad for us. The fact that the clamour comes from them already demonstrates that what they want is in their own interests, not Scotland’s. Don’t let them hoodwink us …

@ Legerwood – well they say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery – so Nicola can consider herself well and truly admired by British Labour. If only they could let go of Trident.

Wull says:
19 June, 2017 at 5:02 pm
I posted this on the previous post by mistake. Here it is again, somewhat modified.

It does not seem to me so bad that Mundell now accepts an Indyref taking place in 2021, after the Scottish Holyrood elections.”

Wull, its a very basic yoon plan, red and blue tory.

Look at how Holyrood works. Its always a knife edge majority.

So BBC Scotland led monstering of SNP Scots gov, with specific targeting of any SNP that looks ready and willing to attack the Mayhem crew in Westminster, almost certainly drags down SNP current minority down far more than this parliament and they would even hope and plan to get Ruth D’s tory clown show into Scots gov.

This will ofcourse be the end of indyref2, permanently, or at least in our lifetime. And ofcourse, its the end of Scottish nation.

We are now already in the BBC Scotland led election and anti SNP 2021 campaign. They did really well in the last UK GE. The Scots 2021 GE is the final assault, for the massed ranks of BBC Scotland led tory gimps of the UK.

By next Scots polling day, June 8 2021(wiki) BBC Scotland will make sure that the SNP will lose. That’s what they are all tasked with.

So far, its working.

At the very least, Scots will be left with whatever it is beeb Scotland gimps decide Scotland actually should be.

@ Wull – great summary of the Tory plan for BREXIT. I agree that they are desperate to get Indyref2 “off the table”. Which indicates that they plan to barter away our assets. Luckily, Nicola has stymied their plan, for now.

I believe that the Westminster planners thought they could get the SNP seats below 30 and declare that the Unionists had won the GE and Indyref2 was dead. They failed. But they will try again – this time pushing Labour to take SNP seats. Radio Scotland is already hard at work, broadcasting Good News stories about Labour and its glorious past.

Jo Swinson has turned down the opportunity to lead the Lib Dems. She would probably have boosted the Lib Dem vote in Scotland and make Labour victories harder to produce and maybe even dilute the Tory vote in the North East. So the Liberals are sacrificing themselves for the Greater Union. Idiots.

That’s the plan as I see it.

heedtracker says:

By next Scots polling day, June 8 2021(wiki) BBC Scotland will make sure that the SNP will lose.

Exactly.

There’s a not so subtle part to all the Yoon “No IndyRef” rhetoric … they never ever connect Brexit with IndyRef2.

They try to imply the SG want IndyRef2 soon, or when they are not doing that, they suggest after 2021. Under no circumstances do they reinforce the reality that IndyRef2 will be a direct response to Brexit.

It’s an essential element of their agenda to disconnect the two.

And therein lies their Achilles heel. An IndyRef2 called after a dreadful Brexit has been revealed is the nightmare they are trying so hard to avoid. But it would be unavoidable.

If we were to start calling IndyRef2 something like BrexitDealRef, their heads would explode.

Scotlands parliment voted and won a mandate for inderef2 AFTER the details of brexit were known to us Scots and BEFORE the next Scottish elections.

Thats all we need. The rest is Bull from the usual suspects and Mundell and the rest of the unionists can moan all they want we will have the referendum on our terms . After and Before are written in stone.

feckin trolls keep repeating the same stuff hoping it will one day be true .

Sensible and Phil why the hell you think you have any influence on these pages is bordering on mindless feckin ramble .

Go sort your own country out . It’s been the laughing stock for years and you have the cheek to come here and spill your bile .

Am off back out in the sun ….. Midlothian is cooking just now . Taps aff and cold drink ….. maybe some highlights tonight of the Brexit talks . set me up for a nice night 😉

“The UK is a country” Laughed so much i nearly pished myself 🙂

More please lol

Just listened to the announcement from Brussels and the BBC coverage thereof.

It went down EXACTLY, EXACTLY as the EU said it was to be.

Did the BBC admit that the Brexiteers had to all intents and purposes capitulated entirely to the program laid out by the EU months ago?

Nope. They were spinning frantically, furiously.

Who are they trying to kid?

tatu3 says:

I don’t see any mention of a good deal/soft brexit/hard brexit. It doesn’t mention Single Market. Surely the majority of Scots on 23 June 2016 voting to Remain is all that is needed? Why are we waiting to see what happens with brexit?

Here’s my opinion.

Firstly, the SNP are going out if their way to be reasonable in respect of both the 2014 and 2016 results and offering a compromise.

Secondly, the SNP always expected Brexit to be hard and their willingness to be reasonable to be rejected out of hand. Which of course puts them in a stronger position when ‘forced’ to call a referendum.

Senile Dave back to work on Monday with all the rest of the deniers.
They would deny the right of Scots to decide if they want to put up with Mays brexit deal or no deal.

They are feart.

link to europa.eu

Ireland and Good Friday agreement look to be a priority. No mention of Gibraltar yet…

…and for any Remainers who voted Labour:

link to twitter.com

gus1940 at 6:34

Yup. The gutter press is the biggest agent for the spread of hatred, intolerance, and bigotry in the UK. Nothing else comes close.

Patience, now more than ever, is the watchword. The SG have made their position and intention more than clear.

Commentary/hearsay/bullshit from the media is neither necessary nor helpful. There’s only one government and system of government they have any interest in aiding. Basically what’s good for them, is bad for Scotland’s population. Only official releases or statements from the Scottish government have any weight.

Bear in mind, this same media and political opposition have spent the past year stating that our government and first minister were bluffing on the issue of an indyref… right up until it turned out she wasn’t and declared the debate and vote in the Scottish parliament.

If you want to know what’s going on, visit the SG site on updates of the SGs position or statements. If you want to know what is going on vis a vis Brexit, I’d recommend going to the EU site for updates. They do transparency somewhat better than UK gov.

In the meantime, the YES movement could do worse than continue getting the band back together and gearing up over the next year or so.

ephemeraldeception 6.12pm

I totally agree.

But its soooo frustrating . 🙂 🙂 🙂

And i find it extremely perplexing that some YES voters are falling for MSM bull again. I should ignore it i know . I am trying honest .

If we fail next time i will shrink into nothingness …. we cant say no twice surely 😉

Hope over ….. everything

Hi sensibledave,

I asked you for a formal copy of the U.K. Constitution to be put up on here, not your piecemeal interpretation of the U.K. parliament.

And oblige

A key thing for Scottish independence is that the support for that by the EU is retained.

There is a danger that the UK team will give away Scottish resources as part of the deal. First, because its Scotland and they don’t care what impact that has there, second, and probably more importantly from their perspective, if the EU accept that then their attitude towards Scottish independence will likely reverse.

If at all possible, the EU team should be made aware at every opportunity that any deals regarding Scottish resources should be placed in a ‘pending the result of indyref2’ category.

Doesn’t sensible Dave sound like the white settler who used to come up here and talk down to us stupid scots because they needed to be told how to run things and he is an educated Englishman and thus superior
We just used to nod our heads in agreement and think what a fucking arse
Now we just say it ,Dave you are a fucking arse

We would have been anticipating Scottish independence day now if Nicola had struck when the iron was hot and not wasted months flogging a dead horse – – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

Rock (26th June 2016 – Notes from the madhouse)

“With the UK leaving the EU, there is absolutely no credible way for Scotland to remain part of the UK as well as the EU as if nothing had changed.

Everything depends on Scotland being fully independent.

The EU will want Scotland more than Scotland wants the EU.

Scotland is in a very strong position right now.

Nicola should get a written statement from the EU that if Scotland votes for independence, Scotland can be a full member from day 1, with the same arrangements as present regarding currency, Schengen etc, IF Scotland wants to be a member from day 1.

The independence referendum questions should then be:

Should Scotland become independent?

If Yes,

Should Scotland continue as a member of the EU, or

Should Scotland leave the EU?

If the vote is for independence outside the EU, we can leave the UK on the same day as the UK (including Scotland) leaves the EU.

We should not wait for the outcome of the Tory civil war down south.

The independence referendum should be held before Cameron’s successor takes over.

All the issues have been already extensively debated during the last campaign and the Wee Black Book exposing Project Fear’s lies is very conveniently fresh off the Press to be delivered to every household in Scotland.

Strike while the iron is hot.”

@COLIN ALEXANDER says: 19 June, 2017 at 2:10 pm:

” … For those that believe in the benefits of the Union. Then surely they recognise that snubbing Scottish sovereignty within the Union will only drive Scotland to leave the Union.”

And that is the point where your whole argument gets shot all to hell, Colin.

Here’s why. The Treaty of union is, like any other bipartite union, a marriage of equals. If one partner leaves a bipartite union they cannot leave behind any kind of union.

Scotland cannot leave behind a still United KINGDOM because what is left behind is a sole partner KINGDOM and it is The KINGDOM of England.

Thus while Scotland cannot leave the United KINGDOM Scotland can end the United KINGDOM. What then remains is England the KINGDOM.

i.e, The KINGDOM of the country of England complete with the English Principality of Wales and the English Province of Northern Ireland.

And if you doubt the truth of the above consider this – If Wales is NOT an English Principality and Northern Ireland is NOT an English Province then they must both be factored into the equation as United Kingdom Assets and must thus form parts of the divorce settlement and be shared between the only two kingdoms who are signatory to The Treaty of Union.

How much longer are we going to have to wait for the resignation of K&C Council’s Leader & Chief Exec. plus the directors of the Housing ALEO?

They are probably shamelessly hanging on to ensure they get the best possible obscene Golden Goodbyes.

Robert Peffers,

“The United KINGDOM is not a country.”

Yes, it is, for all political purposes

The United Kingdom as a political COUNTRY is a member of the United Nations, the European Union and NATO.

If and when the UK gets out of the EU, so does the North Britain part of it, no ifs no buts.

Pedantry like yours got us nowhere in the last 310 years and will get us nowhere in the next 310.

Scott,

“I wont go on but we are treated as second class.”

Why wouldn’t we be?

All we have is loud mouths and no spines.