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Gordon Tries Again

Posted on November 13, 2015 by

And has no more luck this week with hapless Scottish Labour list MSP Claire Baker than he did with her habitually mendacious colleague Jackie Baillie last week:

(The Big Debate, BBC Radio Scotland, 13 November 2015)

Brewer’s weary sigh at 2m 14s speaks volumes.

After two weeks, Labour still hasn’t even done the electorate the basic courtesy of coming up with a better piece of flannel to cover the gaping chasm in their tax-credits plan where the money should be. Baker just quacks on and on, stalling for time with the same idiotic, intelligence-insulting line that NOT changing taxes will somehow magically conjure up hundreds of millions of pounds in extra money from thin air.

We suppose that when you have absolutely no chance of being in power, you can say pretty much whatever you like, knowing you’ll never be found out. But it’s still a pretty shoddy, disrespectful way to run a Parliament’s main opposition party, which is meant to hold the government to account. Maybe it’s time someone else had a go.

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  1. 13 11 15 16:09

    Gordon Tries Again | Politics Scotland | Scoop...

  2. 13 11 15 16:46

    Gordon Tries Again | Speymouth

186 to “Gordon Tries Again”

  1. Angra Mainyu says:

    Brewer sounds suicidal there.

    The one thing I would say in her favour; I think she is genuinely thick and doesn’t understand the point that they would still need to raise additional revenue.

    There’s a lot of that going around…

  2. manandboy says:

    He’s talking to a tape recorded message.

  3. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    To be polite her idea is inchoate, but to be brutally honest it is financially incontinent and stinks.

    Does anyone in the Scottish Labour cohort understand what the feck they are doing?

    They couldn’r run a Parish Council

  4. Donald MacKenzie says:

    Just flick the switch and away they go. It’s like those wee Duracell bunnies (remember the ad?).

    What fascinates me is that they haven’t cottoned on that this approach to battering the message down throats in the belief that it will stick with enough people, no longer works in Scotland. We were always an informed electorate. We are much more so now. We just don’t take that stuff on boar5d any more.

  5. Capella says:

    And it’s not even funny. Can any practical use be found for SLAB? Using up the airwaves is one obvious use, but even they will have to think of something relevant to say sometime?

  6. Just keep talking is how Labour deals with all problems the real numpty party.

  7. Peter Craig says:

    I there a NeuroSurgeon in the house?

    I have just heard a load of words but was unable to comprehend what they meant.

    Do I have some terrible brain eating disease?


  8. R-type Grunt says:

    She’s not that thick. She’s ‘earning’ 4 times the money I am.

  9. Itchybiscuit says:

    Has it really got to the stage where Labour economic policy consists of one line: ‘We’re not going to do what the SNP government would do’?

    I think it has…

  10. Sweep says:

    I’m not going to change my socks. I now own an extra pair of socks.Yippee!!

  11. No no no...Yes says:

    Unusual for Brewer to let an interviewee drone on and on, but clearly he had given up with this one.

    It really is a dreadful indictment that none of the Labour MSPs who have spoken on this subject has any grasp of basic maths, nor the capability to deviate from a rehearsed script. A bunch of parrots.

    I didn’t listen to the programme, but the cynic in me says that Brewer wanted to avoid mentioning HMRC and the Better Together lies about jobs. Am I being unfair?

  12. David says:

    Suppose we could vote Labour so the SNP could provide decent opposition.

    I think I may have figured out Labour’s election strategy.

  13. Capella says:

    However, Greg Moodie’s comic strip in the National IS funny and on topic!

  14. Hugh Kirk says:

    SLAB can only get better. THEY SURE HAS HELL COULDN’T GET ANY BLOODY WORSE. Then again, maybe they can.

  15. Langspoon says:

    It is clear the SLAB cannot form the next Scottish Government. Their task is to goad the SNP into making commitments that will spring the Scotland Bill trap. It would be almost pure comedy if SLAB accidentally won the next election, watching them flailing around trying to understand what had happened, were it not the fact it would be a tragedy for us all.

  16. handclapping says:

    And this is what Slab thinks would make a good MSP for Kirkcaldy! Just because we tholed Broon for so long doesn’t mean we’re dumb.

  17. gerry parker says:

    How long will it take for these interviewers to cotton on that they’re having the pi** taken out of them by these Slab brainless fools?

  18. RogueCoder says:

    Kudos to Brewer for having another bash, and it’s clear to anybody who listened to that car crash that Labour didn’t do any due diligence in costing the proposal, they just figured they could get away with the APD and income tax threshold flannel – because let’s face it, when has the Scottish media ever challenged them on it in the past?

    The credibility gap between Labour and the SNP is no longer a gulf, it’s a chasm. And this is the fundamental reason why, even without the lingering anger about them doing the Tories dirty work during #indyref or the subsequent rage at #labstain, the political left in Scotland simply are not going to vote Labour in May. The left may not entirely agree with the SNP agenda, but they know a strong and credible governing party will protect them versus a weak, shambolic, in-fighting Red Tory Labour party that can’t be bothered to do the basic maths on its proposals.

  19. orri says:

    All rather irrelevant since no powers to top up credits have materialised. Such powers being needed as Scotland could only vary every tax band by the same amount.

    So we had Labour not understanding that APD cuts were intended to increase revenue rather than drop it. Possibly with a slight impact on the revenue of other airports in the UK but perhaps not. Perhaps those who couldn’t actually afford to fly abroad could do so now.

    If Labour pretend to be the party of the working man then surely they need to at least allow those who earn to have a cheap holiday if that contributes to our economy.

  20. skozra says:

    How come these ‘scottish’ Labour chancers weren’t interviewed like this last year by Gordon Brewer ? Probably wouldn’t have made much difference mind.

  21. Clootie says:

    …the more you do the less the better!

  22. Stoker says:

    Call in the great Svengali Broon, the greatest chancer we have ever known, he’ll explain it all and all will be well. The End.

  23. annie says:

    Nick Clegg thought he and his fellow MPs could all happily sign the no university fees pledge since they didn’t expect to ever have to implement it and it came back to bite them on the bum. Hope labour live to regret this tax credit top-up scheme,without them ever being in power obviously.

  24. ronald alexander mcdonald says:

    Maybe Dave King will fund it for them.

  25. Dave the squirrel says:

    Top up mince mince mince powers mince top-up powers mince mince scotland mince mince the scottish government sucks mince mince mince ma gran’s got a lovely wee dog mince mince top up.

    Can i have seventy grand now as well?

  26. Free Scotland says:

    Claire Baker: Waffle waffle waffle.

    Gordon Brewer: This is all terribly marvelous, but what Labour haven’t answered is the rather obvious point that none of this raises you any money.

    Claire Baker: Waffle waffle waffle.

  27. She isn’t thick she’s just liebour and a liar herself. She just tried to keep talking so Brewer wouldn’t be heard. Brewer is a dick still he isn’t interested in being unbiased unionist prick through and through.

  28. Free Scotland says:

    Labour do not have to say anything. But anything they do say may be taken down and used in evidence against them.

  29. donald anderson says:

    Is Cheezy’s scriptwriter setting her up for a Giraffe at PMQT?

  30. Hamish McTavish says:

    Why does anyone allow nonentities like the SLab drones anywhere near a broadcast microphone?

    I thought the BBC did comprehensive risk assessments on virtually all their activities. That lot should top out above “Danger, Will Robinson!” as being seriously damaging to psychological well-being.

    None of the opposition parties should be allowed to comment on anything vaguely related to finance unless they have published their own alternative budget that is available for scrutiny (and ridicule).

  31. thomaspotter2014 says:

    Some recent posters seem to be suggesting that it might be a good idea to let Slab actually win the Holyrood election.

    Poor unfortunate hard done by Slab.

    Are you fucking kidding me?

    No prisoners in the coming battle


  32. john king says:

    Why is it every time I look at Claire Baker I think someone has tummed a pot noodle ower her heed?

  33. ArtyHetty says:

    Here is a quote you probably all know anyway, from Upton Sinclair.
    “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

    Or even a woman for that matter, but of course we know that many in liebour understand perfectly that they are conning the people, their salary depends on their immense capacity to spout verbal doo daa. They clearly have no shame and are lacking the embarrassment factor. Christ.

  34. DerekM says:

    Come on Gordon we know you are just dying to be a real journalist so get on with it and tear these idiots to shreds,this is not about yes or no its about you and your lot doing your fecking job,even you must have figured out by now that it has all been a big lie.

    So either confront it or be the tame little hack they have turned you into,show some backbone man!!!

    Best of it is Gordon you could have a very bright future in an independent Scotland ,you are not a daftie so why are you acting like one hmmm ?

    LOL and yes i know you read wings all you wanna be journalists do especially when the Rev decides its your time of the week to get clobbered by the wingers.

  35. One_Scot says:

    Has anyone got a fast forward button to May 2016.

  36. jdenham says:

    Who was it who said you can stay silent and let people think you are a fool, or speak and let them know you are one (or words to that effect)? Seems to fit the bill.

  37. Martin says:

    I think the Labour spokespeople are enjoying Brewer’s interview style rather less than I am. Fair play to him on this, he has really pushed this simple maths stuff, which is what journos should be doing. He isn’t exactly known for giving the SNP an easy ride either so maybe he’s just actually doing his job (I know, crazy).

    The stock answer of “we wouldn’t do what the current gov are planning and that would improve things because SNP bad” is starting to sound ridiculous to even some Yoon pals of mine. Kezia’s masterplan seems to be having the exact effect we all suspected.

  38. yesindyref2 says:

    “Mr Cameron insisted: “Now the debate can shift to how those powers should be used, that’s the debate that now needs to start.”

    It’s absolutely none of his business, none of the MPs in the House of Commons (including the SNP ones), none of the business of the House of Lords.

    Unless Cameron is hinting he’s taking over Holyrood, which wouldn’t surprise me.

    What does surprise me is why the SNP MPs don’t tell all the MPs that it’s none of their business, that they should concentrate on what is in their remit to talk about, not make comments about a Parliament, the Scottish Parliament, that is none of their business.

    I guess I wouldn’t make an MP as I’d tell them all it’s none of their business, and to get their snotty noses out of it.

  39. Chitterinlicht says:

    Diddy party.

    Miserable ambitionless self preserving self interested clueless bunch of diddies.

    Hell mend them.

  40. proudscot says:

    Firstly, the above interview is a reason why Baker is only a List MSP. Also, although it in no way excuses her, she is merely parroting the same fantasy economics as Dugdale and Baillie.

    Secondly, the other choice of opposition party, led by Wee Ruth The Merciless, would take the opposite tack by cutting taxes for the upper middle to top earners, and pay for this by savage cuts to free tuition, free prescriptions and free bus travel, and the abolition of the Council Tax Freeze.

    Both of the above parties urgently need the political equivalent of potty training, so they can grow up into real adult parties, sometime before 2025 hopefully.

  41. The whole unionist lot their rhetoric and their vow puts me in mind of the title of a book I read it was called A Bright Shining Lie mind you unlike them the book was good. And true.

  42. James Coleman says:

    She’s another Kez. To get a word in you’ve got to talk over her in LOUD voice.

  43. Fireproofjim says:

    I have never believed that Gordon Brewer was really a truly anti-SNP interviewer. Certainly he is nothing like as biased as Jackie Bird or Kirsty Wark.
    He has a very annoying habit of talking over the interviewee but he is the same with everyone and lately has shown up Jackie Baillie and Kezia Dugdale for the useless windbags which they are.
    I am prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.

  44. Now's the Hour says:

    Why does this remind me of

    ‘These are small, but those are far away…Small, far away…Ah forget it…’

  45. Skip_NC says:

    BtP, we know they couldn’t run a Parish Council. They proved as much from 1999-2007 when they were in charge of the Parish Council as the fine, downstanding Tony Blair described it.

  46. Ian says:

    Jeez. Do these people ever breathe in? They also sound like they are all on amphetamines. Do they think that they just need to keep talking fast and no-one will notice that they’re talking nonsense? God knows how Brewer manages not to burst out laughing at this lot. Tick tock.

    If you want a definition of the word ‘nonsense’ it’s in a dictionary. There’s just a photo of a ‘Scottish’ Labour politician with their mouth open.

  47. yesindyref2 says:

    Having actually listened to it (I don’t normally bother), I don’t agree with the criticisms of Gordon Brewer, and to be honest, often don’t.

    He made his point, three times, and even when she was waffling on at the end, made his point twice with his very audible sighs.

    Apart from that her round in circles waffle, made his point for him anyway.

    What Labour is on about is not raising any extra money, but promising to spend extra money they won’t have. I think Brewer nailed it.

  48. Anagach says:

    It does make you wonder if they actually are that dim.

    I mean, avoiding saying what you would cut is standard political fare, but they seem to actually believe that this money would appear without raising any new revenue.

    Maybe they believe that the SNP would not need to make cuts to find the APD tax reduction.

    But its looking like they really are too dim to be let out on their own far less run a school sweetie shop anything.

  49. Dr Jim says:

    I’m not going to buy an Aston Martin so with the money I’ve saved from that I’m giving it all to the poor

    Helluva guy me eh?

  50. Papadox says:

    Engage brain before opening mouth. Therein lies the first problem. NAE BRAIN! any of them.

    What is even more worrying is there are numpties in this country who are planning to vote for them!

    The EBC MSM are trying to sell them to the electorate and can’t understand why it ain’t working!!!

    We gotta get out of this nuthouse!

  51. yesindyref2 says:

    @Dr Jim
    I’m not going to buy an Aston Martin, and with the money I save I’ll not buy another Aston Martin. With the money I save from not buying 2 Aston Martins I’ll not buy 4 …

  52. ahundredthidiot says:

    Spot on Rev

    Move over Labour, let the Tories form the opposition

    Defo worth a fiver

  53. DerekM says:

    @ Fireproofjim

    Agreed Jim,i cant figure out what he is up to,its like he is scared to lose his job or something,there is definitely shadowy figures lurking in the background pulling his strings.

    He does have potential if only he could free himself from those shadows as like i said earlier he is no daftie regardless of what ever his own political view is.

    You can just tell and as the Rev pointed out the sigh speaks a thousand words.

  54. Jimbo says:

    I can’t make my mind up if Labour in Scotland really are collectively thick, are being purposely thick or are taking it for granted that the Scottish electorate are thick.

    Surely one of them is capable of working it out that not spending anything doesn’t increase what’s in your wallet? They can’t be collectively thick to such an extent, can they?

  55. george says:

    they’re going to find money from *not* implementing SNP *and* scottory policies.

    at the same time.

    that’s amazing.

  56. Inverclyder says:

    Heid up the arse syndrome.

  57. David McDowell says:

    BBC BIG DEBATE: EPISODE 238: “Von Smallhausen loses the will to live”

  58. galamcennalath says:

    I can actually understand where the Tories are coming from. Their attitudes and philosophy are consistent. They are quite open about what they believe. I completely and totally disagree with them, but accept folks’ opinions vary.

    Now, Labour in Scotland. What the Hell do they now stand for or represent? Totally beats me. I just don’t understand where they are coming from at all. Who do they stand for? What are their values? Is their a pattern to their disjointed policies?

    Yes 20% of Scots say they will vote for Labour.

    OK, I know the arguments about nostalgia and patronage in the past, the power of Labour councils and Labour Trade Unions in peoples’s lives. That’s all history. Scotland occupies a different planet now.

    I remain deeply puzzled.

  59. ahundredthidiot says:

    Went buy a new motor the other day, fella told me I was saving 2 gees by buying from him.

    I declined.

    I did not leave with 2 grand in my wallet.

    Had I bought it…….I would’ve been down £10k

    I think I’ll go sell cars to the labour party.

  60. Ken MacColl says:

    It is a truly sobering thought to realise that Richard Baker is the brighter member of his family.
    Even worse is to accept that this pair are collecting two MSPs salaries.
    Things can only get better!

  61. Robert Louis says:

    In all my days, I have never heard such utter stupid sh*te from a politician. It is all very well having different policies, but Clair Baker just sounds a bit thick. She clearly has no idea what it all means.

    Dear Labour, if you don’t cut a tax, you don’t get more money.


  62. heedtracker says:

    Her best friend Kezia told her everyone would get ice cream too, if they’re good.

  63. Murray McCallum says:

    We must take from this that Labour in Scotland are as serious about tackling social inequality as they are about drafting a sound financial plan to tackle it.

    They are simply not up to the task.

    It’s not good enough to think you have little chance of being in power and therefore have no need to worry about your promises. That didn’t work very well for the FibDems.

  64. mealer says:

    Ken MacColl 6.22
    I’m sure I read somewhere that Richard Baker isn’t standing in May.Personally,I think Claire Baker exhibits in abundance all the qualities Labour look for in a leader.Its just a matter of time before she gets her shottie.I think there’s only three or four ahead of her in the queue,so there’s a fair chance she could lead them into the election in May.

  65. Gary45% says:

    I would suggest a practical use for Slab would be an anchor for a boat, but they would probably sink it.
    I have wracked my noggin, and come to the conclusion they are sh*te at everything.
    Slab are our of their depth, and the hole they are digging gets deeper each passing day.
    Todays National cover “priceless”

  66. crazycat says:

    @ mealer

    Now that you’re here, I addressed a post to you on another thread very late last night, which you may not have seen.

    The man who complied lists of candidates for the GE is:

    He doesn’t yet have lists for Holyrood, as far as I can see, but I assume he will, so you could keep an eye on him.

  67. john king says:

    “.I think there’s only three or four ahead of her in the queue,so there’s a fair chance she could lead them into the election in May.”


  68. tombee says:

    I’m beginning to understand. The penny has just dropped now, and I know it’s been some time, just who it was, that Joanne Lamont was referring to, when she talked about Scots not being genetically programed to make political decisions. It was her own Scots colleagues in the Scottish Branch Office, of the Labour Party.

  69. Ken500 says:

    Brewer actually cottons on for a change.

    Cutting APDT will raise £1Billion (increased revenues) and will pay for tax credits and loss of tax revenues. The gain will be more than the loss. Generate business, create jobs and direct flights. Anywhere but Heathrow.

    Labour/Unionists are just incredibly bad at Maths, but incredibly able to spend Trillions on illegal wars causing one of the worse migration crisis in Europe since 11WW. Along with banking fraud and tax evasion. They are a complete and utter disgrace.

  70. msean says:

    None of this tax credit stuff matters at all,the Tories will claw back any mitigation monies,only Labour seems to think they won’t. They make it so easy for the tories sometimes they must be laughing.

  71. Ken500 says:

    There are are two of them? collecting £100K + in salary and expenses? and they can’t add up.

  72. Dr steinberg says:

    That white noise is the sound of a big hole being dug! SLAB R.I.P.

  73. heedtracker says:

    The day a wanna be Andrew Neil like Brewer tries this on with Fluffy Mundell or a disgraced LibDem unionist like Carmichael in a BBC studio, on massive issues like the Scotland bill…

    “So Fluffie, if SNP can and do make up the tax credit losses toryboy world in England has stripped aways from say single Scottish mum’s, will count it all as income and do your stuff?”

    Pigs will fly first.

  74. HandandShrimp says:

    Actually listening to that she came near the point that Brewer was driving close to the end of her spiel. “Different priorities”. So what is giving?

    Tuition fees? Probably

    Raising the Council tax so that they can cut central government support to local government? Almost certainly.

    New taxes? Possibly

    They are going to have to set all this before the election.

  75. Ken500 says:

    What is even worse is Baillie not ‘Business Secretary’?

  76. Dr Jim says:


    Now that’s a real grasp of Kezianomics or is it Labournomics

    but in Jackie Baillie’s mind that’ll be “Labianomics”

    I know it’s a bit rude and sexist and all the PC offensive things but I couldn’t resist

  77. Sinky says:

    OT. Well worth watching Scotland under 21s v Ukraine on BBC Alba winning 2 _ 1

  78. Ken500 says:

    Andrew Neil can’t add up. Just reads from a prepared unresearched script, and hopes no one notices. What is his salary? Thatcher henchman.

  79. joe macfarlane says:

    Can NS refuse to govern when SNP win majority of seats and instead says to Kezia on you go show us how its done , and leave labour to balance the books with their magic money creation system ? Does the party with the biggest majority HAVE TO govern ??

  80. Lesley-Anne says:

    Sounds an awful like squeaky bum time there.

    Looks like Gordon Brewer is beginning to do what we have all been shouting at him to do since the beginning of time. The wee branch office is now starting to figure out that things may not be all that rosy between them and the BBC after all!

    Any day now we should witness the rare sight of the BBC demanding their over used calculator back from the branch office.

    I give you an insight into the branch office discussing how they can beat off any questions from nasty journalists about where they will find the money … any money … to pay for all of their new fangled *ahem* ideas.

  81. Jimbo says:

    Going by Slab logic, if Claire Baker gives me 25% of her wages and I give her 25% of my debt she’ll be be no worse off.

    In fact I’m quite prepared to do a good debt discount deal for the whole Scottish branch office.

  82. ScottieDog says:

    I recently saw an advert at Edinburgh airport stating that Heathrow expansion would cost Scottish tax payers money without any benefit for Scotland (so far so good I thought)

    Then I looked down and its was a bloody advert for gatwick expansion… On the wall at feckin Edinburgh airport!

  83. Scottish Labour have only one policy and that is to run down their own country.

    They see Scotland failing as the golden path to get their troughs back into power.

    They are an abomination one and all.

    just sayin ken.

  84. heedtracker says:

    Ken500 says:
    13 November, 2015 at 7:17 pm
    Andrew Neil can’t add up.

    Also his strange hairdo changes colour, depending on what mood he’s in.

  85. Onwards says:

    Jimbo says:
    13 November, 2015 at 6:10 pm
    I can’t make my mind up if Labour in Scotland really are collectively thick, are being purposely thick or are taking it for granted that the Scottish electorate are thick.

    Probably a combination of all three. They will just try to brassneck it out.

    I remember a time when Labour used to tell voters it would be a disaster if the inexperienced SNP got into power at Holyrood. How we needed a safe pair of hands..

    Now it seems like the situation should be reversed. It would be a utter calamity if these chancers ended up running the show.

  86. Mad Jock McMad says:

    It all makes perfect sense if you live in Westminster world.

    For example: the Prime Minister has complained to Oxfordshire County Council about cuts to local services and their effects on his constituents, cuts required as a result of his own government’s austerity policies. Yet when the Tory Leader of Oxfordshire CC had the temerity to publicly point this out to Cameron, Cameron gets all shirty, pulling the ‘party loyalty’ excommunication chord.

    This being the same snake oil salesman who is trying to sell Scots the lie that the Smith Recommendations have been met in full. This suggests the current main parties at Westminster are so busy ‘playing the game’, trying to trip each other up for minor political point scoring, they have forgotten what they are actually supposed to be doing.

    Westminster wannabees, like Deputy Dug and Baillie, are clearly practicing for their hoped for ‘promotion’ to the Labour Westminster team where policy is always an after thought, let alone how you are going to fund it.

  87. Paula Rose says:

    To all Labour unionists reading this –

    I moved to Scotland in 1984 and became active in my trade union over the next
    few years, committee member, trades council delegate and spoke at conference.

    I was brought up in London – my politics were formed there, in order to actually change things, one had to be part of a party that could do that – one within which you had a voice.

    Obviously when I moved here I was still Labour through and through. I regret now having disparaged the 15% at that time who supported the construct of the British Isles as a family of autonomous countries – but by 1990 I was firmly in their camp – although not as a supporter of the SNP.

    This farce of a Labour party must stop – either join the SNP for the time being and then form part of a new socialist party in Scotland or whatever political outlook suits,
    because understand that –

    You are making yourselves look completely ridiculous now – these marginal differences in polling are not signs in the entrails of a disembowelled chicken that things might change.

    You are now an embarrassment to the many who really thought they would never leave you.

  88. Bob Mack says:

    I thought that educational levels had deteriorated only when the SNP had taken over Holyrood.?
    On the evidence of Labours candidates both current and prospective,it is clear education has been suffering for a great deal longer than that.
    Crikey,these people went to University.

  89. Lesley-Anne says:

    Anyone wondering who the SNP candidates are for May 2016 General Election can check them out here.

    Let’s get behind them folks.

    Let’s wipe RED and BLUE Tories OFF the face of the planet! 😀

    We will do this!

  90. Clydebuilt says:

    Practised Liars ……..

  91. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Spot on Paula!

    Brings to mind the guys from the Amateur Football Association we met in The Vale, after one of the George Square demos in May or June, this year.

    Labour through and through but, at the GE, they voted SNP “with a heavy heart”.

    The soberer one said, “I didn’t leave the Labour Party; the Labour Party left us.”

  92. Bob Mack says:

    @Lesley Anne,

    Mid Scotland has a candidate called David Torrance for the SNP.
    Sureley not ?

  93. handclapping says:

    @Bob Mack
    You’re right, its a different one. He’s the present Kirkcaldy MSP

  94. Lesley-Anne says:

    Don’t panic Bob it is not THAT David Torrance. 😀

  95. Clydebuilt says:

    Labour are facing keeping up this lie till next May……. They intend to keep up a stupid lie for 6 / 7. months. Labours response to holding on to one Westminster constituency is to lie to Scots for months? That’ll be another successful Scottish Labour campaign then.

  96. Greg says:

    Claire is definitely not thick. Kelty was my second home for a bit and In the early 90s I used to play drums in a band called ‘Big Huge Massive’ with her dad (Okay, I realise there’s comedy in a drummer appreciating the intelligence of anyone who ISN’T a drummer) and I was amazed – tho, not surprised – when I discovered she had been elected as an MSP.

    She grew up in a traditional Labour household. Back when Labour still had some principles (pre TB). Her mum was lovely and her dad a great guy, in whose company I had some memorable, enlightening and hilarious experiences. From what I recall, Claire was well read, forthright and a very nice girl. They were not well off and although she got to uni, it wasn’t common in a deprived post-mining town like Kelty.

    I think Claire is just obliged to spin whatever daft idea Kezia has vomited up. It’s a shame. I’m sure Claire would make a much better leader than Kez (although a tin of spam wouldn’t struggle too hard with that challenge). Pity she’s not in the SNP instead of wasting her talents helping to bail out the permanently punctured dinghy that is SLAB.

    Incidentally, we were booked and played for Labour’s “victory” bash in Dunfermline in ’92. Guess who was there…yes, Gordon “f**king” Brown! I was so pissed off with their losing election campaign bollocks that scuppered SNP gains (again!) I left the stage when he came up to make a speech. Funnily enough, our guitarist – who was Scottish Militant – asked the audience if they thought he’d make a great PM. I think the response was positive but after the gubbing they’d just received, I suppose even THAT prospect roused the spirits of the guests. I’m pretty sure our guitarist was taking the piss though!

  97. The Rough Bounds. says:

    I listened to the ‘Big Debate’ today and I really empathised with Gordon Brewer when he was sighing loudly at the nonsense emanating from Claire Baker.

    I half expected to hear his head bumping on the desk in front of him. How he managed to keep control of himself and not shout out something like ‘For fuck’s sake woman will you just shut up and try and THINK’, as I would have done is quite beyond me.

    I could never do his job.

  98. Macart says:

    Bangs head off….etc.

  99. Auldgrannie says:

    It would have been helpful if Gordon had asked her how Labour intend to pay for this PRIOR to Holyrood getting its Devo nano powers ie before to 2018. And also how they would pay to administer them.

    Which budgets do they intend to cut?

    Will HMRC be able to identify who in Scotland receives tax credits given that they are currently unable to ascertain who are tax payers in Scotland?

    And given that HMRC are cutting 2400 staff in Scotland (that Better Together told their jobs were safe if they voted No), how much do Labour estimate it will cost to set up a Department to administer and train staff in the complex calculations for tax credits?

    Not too mention the fact that Westminster will NOT confirm that any moneys received by the recipient from the Scottish Government will not be calculated as income, thus reducing their benefit further.

    I’m absolutely sick fed up of these idiots being given an easy ride. This is too important to let them off the hook.

    People are actually starving, dying and committing suicide because of this sick Tory government

    They deserve better than to be given false hope and lied to by a mendacious and incompetent Scottish Labour branch.

  100. Ken Waldron says:

    APD was scrapped for under 12’s in May this year, next year it’s to be scrapped for under 16’s and there are noises about getting rid of it altogether as have the Dutch and the Irish and there already a zero rate in Northern Ireland for destination bands B, C and D.
    So as well as certain revenue decline from this source, leaving it in place at the present level as Labour suggest will disadvantage our Airports when compared to our neighbours.
    It’s hanging a lot on a shoogly peg.

    If Labour were serious they wouldn’t have voted against devolving working tax credits to Scotland. As it stands their proposals are utterly dishonest.

  101. Free Scotland says:

    At the end of October, when the clocks were put back an hour, Jackie Baillie, Kezia Dugdale and Claire Baker went away for a SLAB girls’ bonding weekend in a Perthshire hotel.

    On the Friday night, Kezia had a brainwave: she reasoned that, since they had no diary commitments until the Monday, they could get ahead of the game and put their watches back on the Friday night, giving them a nice lie-in on the Saturday morning. Everyone agreed, and, on the Saturday morning, they all arrived fashionably late – almost too late – for breakfast in the hotel dining room.

    “Phew, that was close,” said Jackie, wiping the jammy flakes of her tenth croissant from her face with the back of her hand and gulping down her fourth mug of milky coffee.

    As the day unfolded, the gang of three began running into difficulties with things like television schedules, bus and train timetables and restaurant opening times. Together they agreed to put their watches forward again by an hour and then change them, as most people do, before going to bed that night.

    Sunday dawned, and, suitably rested, Jackie, Kezia and Claire made their way to the dining room to enjoy a hearty breakfast. As they chatted, Kezia reflected on the fact that, while most people would have enjoyed the benefit of just ONE extra hour of leisure that weekend, she and her two colleagues had enjoyed the benefit of TWO.

  102. Colin McCartney says:

    Another moron to add to the list – and with that monotone delivery she really sounds like a moron

  103. Robert Kerr says:


    I note that you state that “although she got to uni, it wasn’t common in a deprived post-mining town like Kelty.”

    I cannot find any reference on the internet to her ever graduating. Please enlighten us.

    I found her grasp of basic English as heard on the above recording to be very poor.

    No slab apologists required here,

  104. galamcennalath says:

    Stu tweets ….

    “Poll result: 70% of Scots don’t understand what Labour’s position on Trident is.

    Of the 30% of Scots who say they DO understand Labour’s Trident position, 18% think they’re pro-renewal and 12% think they’re against.”

    … that just sooooo sums up the absolute mess Labour have got themselves into.

    The Tories are the enemy. Labour are just hapless idiots getting in the way of progress.

  105. Peter Craig says:

    According To Recent TNS Poll

    39% of intending Slab voters don’t know who Kezia Dugdale is!

    32% of intending Slab voters like Nicola Sturgeon!

    25% of intending Slab voters like Kez!

    This is a disaster! Kezia Dugdale is one of our best advocates, we must try to raise her profile, she has to be worth 8-10% to the yes vote all on her own.

  106. Paula Rose says:

    Free Scotland has just been added to my Christmas card list.

  107. Macart says:

    @Paula Rose 7.51

    Very well said.

  108. Jimbo says:

    Just a thought; Kezia and Jackie are probably reading these comments and shaking their heads at how stupid we all are for not being able to understand their brilliant tax credits plan.

  109. Hamish100 says:

    breakfast discussion Claire Baker and Shadow SoS for Scotland

    SNP baaaaaaaad

  110. Sinky says:

    Ok I am a pedent but just heard Michael Portillo refer to Lord Byron who helped Grreece gain independence as an English poet drspite being born in Scotland

  111. desimond says:

    Wait a the hell will the SNP beat Labour if Labour count 2 votes for every one they dont get

  112. Macart says:

    @Peter Craig

    I suspect Ms Dugdale is a placeholder till after the Holyrood elections. Prior to the GE there simply wasn’t any experienced politicians of any weight in Scotland of the red tory variety. How and ever there are now 40 out of work ex MPs with Westminster experience, who I’m sure, won’t want to wait five years before getting another bite at the expenses cake.

  113. Petra says:

    @ Bob Mack says at 7:54 pm ”Crikey, these people went to University.”

    It goes for nothing Bob. I know of numerous people who hold a Doctorate, Masters or basic Degree, that relates to a particular subject, but just can’t count.

    @ tombee says at 6:54 pm ”I’m beginning to understand. The penny has just dropped now, and I know it’s been some time, just who it was, that Joanne Lamont was referring to, when she talked about Scots not being genetically programed to make political decisions. It was her own Scots colleagues in the Scottish Branch Office, of the Labour Party.”

    Just what I was thinking Tombee. It may also account for people like Kezia Dugdale constantly chuntering on about numbers of children in Scotland lacking in numeracy / literacy skills and omitting to mention that somehow or another the Scots are known to be the most highly educated people in Europe and our Scottish education system ranks as one of the best in the World.

    What is clear is that THEY seem to suffer from numerical incompetence (try to project onto others) which they then try to mask by manically talking over people in an attempt not to answer the question.

    Looks as though Claire Baker, Dugdale and Baillie et al have been studying at the Johann Lamont College of Economics.

    Johann Lamont unsure on top rate tax take

    Johann Lamont in monumental muddle over tax proposals – Newsnicht – This woman, with this level of economic understanding, aspires to be First Minister of Scotland – peculiar way to run a tax system.

    JOHANN LAMONT: Does anyone know what she’s talking about? Does she know herself?

    Jackie Baillie – FMQs: Nicola on budget underspend – and budgetary ignorance of Jackie Baillie

  114. Les Wilson says:

    The real problem with Slab is fear. They are all terrified they will join the ex slab MP’s on the dole, in May.
    They are desperate to retain whatever they can, by whatever means they have.

    The problem is they do not have the means, so they lie in an attempt to hoodwink whatever voters they can. they have no real policies so they lie and make them up, while knowing it is almost a certainty they face armaggedon.

    HQ has in truth abandoned them, they are very worried and desperate, and we all know, desperate people do desperate things. They are an empty vessel,this is their last hurrah, desperation does not cut it.

  115. Free Scotland says:

    @desimond at 9:19


  116. Petra says:

    @ Sinky says at 9:14 pm ”Ok I am a pedent but just heard Michael Portillo refer to Lord Byron who helped Greece gain independence as an English poet despite being born in Scotland.”

    Sinky I know that the English are inclined to ‘adopt’ MANY famous Scots, Welsh and Irish individuals but I think Byron was born in London or Dover?. Spent many years / was educated in Scotland as his mother was Scottish (Gordon family – Aberdeen).

  117. Anagach says:

    Macart says:

    I suspect Ms Dugdale is a placeholder till after the Holyrood elections.

    You say that, and talentless though she is, who else have they got thats any better ?

  118. Inverclyder says:

    Peter Craig @ 8:51

    39% of intending Slab voters don’t know who Kezia Dugdale is!
    32% of intending Slab voters like Nicola Sturgeon!
    25% of intending Slab voters like Kez!

    From recent basic arithmetic lessons from Labour Branch Office janitorial team that’s 96% of the votes going to them!

    Susprised that Jackie “are they sausage rolls hot” Baillie hasn’t jumped on this, “Fact”.

  119. call me dave says:


    “Prior to the GE there simply wasn’t any experienced politicians of any weight in Scotland of the red tory variety”.

    @ Free Scotland

    “Phew, that was close,” said Jackie, wiping the jammy flakes of her tenth croissant from her face with the back of her hand and gulping down her fourth mug of milky coffee.

    Shurely shome mishtake guys!

    I know I shouldn’t have… but the two comments together just didn’t compute. Sorry to all lightweight politicians out there.

    I’m just catching up but the last 3 threads have been excellent reading.

  120. Janet says:

    Forecast: Tories to overtake Labour in Scotland.

    After all, the Tories are the logical home for horrid views!

  121. winifred says:

    Surely you know about Labours magic money tree – JB told us about it and now Claire and of course KD – its the kings clothes – only labour can see this magic money tree and the rest of us are supposed to try harder to see it – IT’S NOT HAPPENING – why can’t we have a magic money tree.

  122. Jimbo says:

    39% of intending Slab voters don’t know who Kezia Dugdale is!

    Just proves that 39% of Slab voters haven’t a clue who or what they’re voting for. They’re voting for the red rosette (either out of loyalty to what used to be, or out of ignorance to what Labour in Scotland have become), not Labour policies (assuming they have any come the election).

  123. Macart says:


    Oh hell they’re all the same when it comes to ethics, but like I went on to say before, there are 40 ex Westminster MPs out there. Take your pick as to who might be eyeing up Kezia’s job.

    They’ll not wait five years for another shot at the political arena and I don’t believe for an instant that Labour HQ think Kezia is leadership material. If the movers and shakers aren’t already lining up the next incumbent I’d be stunned.

    How and ever I think they still underestimate just how toxic the Labour brand has become under their watch. The only difference will be in style.

    When it comes to substance…

  124. Bob Mack says:

    Terrible news from Paris. Again the innocent suffer.

  125. Capella says:

    @ Paula Rose 7.51
    Well said. As a life long socialist and Labour voter until 2005, when the penny finally dropped, I’m appalled at the mendacity of the Labour Party. Perhaps they were always a front for the Establishment, one that would soak up the socialist vote and neutralise it on behalf of the state.

    It is now crystal clear that the Labour party of Keir Hardie is dead. After independence, it may be resurrected. Until then, I agree with Stu’s assessment. Let’s not rest until every Labour and Tory MP/MSP is removed from Scotland. Because there is really no difference between them. (I’m ignoring the Liberals for obvious reasons).

  126. Angra Mainyu says:

    Paula Rose, great post.

    It’s just such a let down to see the Labour Party reduced to this. And It’s a huge insult to the memory of all those poor people who used to look up to and take part in that movement for the right reasons.

    The Labour Party we see before us today is basically a really bad tribute act.

  127. R-type Grunt says:


    I posted this earlier on FB. Your post is much the same in context..

    Re: Carmichael. Note that the only criticism he gets is from SNP & Indy folk. Tories, Labour? They don’t care. Why? Because he’s one of them.

  128. Davy says:

    Another nightmare in Paris, spare a prayer for the inoccent victims and their families.

  129. Dr Jim says:

    BBC reporting not factual and reporting innuendo as fact says the Advocate General Frank Mulholland

    The BBC says guess what: The BBC stands by it’s journalism

    So the BBC says The SNP and the First Minister are liars, the Police are liars, the entire Yes campaign were liars and now the Advocate General’s a liar

    I’m sensing a pattern here Hmm

  130. Capella says:

    @ R-type Grunt
    I’ve always despised the Liberals as “face-aw-roon” (sorry Stu). They are straws in the wind, courting the lower classes when it looks advantageous but dumping them when they get into a position of power. I hope we can now consign all of the UK Parties to the dustbin of history.

    Today was Robert Louis Stevenson’s birthday. Not a cheep on Radio Scotland in celebration of one the most famous novelists in the world. Poverty of imagination and cultural identity IMO.

  131. Graham MacLure says:

    Forget Keir Hardy but rejoice in “Don Roberto” as one of his progenies lives on. Labour is a busted flush but the SNP hold all the Aces.The Union is dead and Westminster knows it. All they are doing now is trying to salvage flotsam and jetsam from the shipwreck in the style of Old Steptoe whining, wheedling,and lying in the most base fashion as they have sold the family silver and their birthright to all and sundry who had 30 pieces of silver to pay for it and now only surviving on the charity of their neighbour..

  132. Cadogan Enright says:

    This Guy Gordon then; presumably the only journalist in Scotland then outside the Internet and the National? He had need to watch himself as he has no chance now of getting onto the politics show or the like when Neil resigns or the BBC fire the Redoubtable Neil for bringing the BBC into disrepute last month.

    There will be a BBC middle manager on a prime ministerial salary despatched to make sure that Gordon does not repeat this offence.

    I turned off the BBC news tonight when they started interviewing a U.S. ‘terrorism expert’ (out of the mouths of fools and babes) who started outlining how Iran could be involved in the Paris monstrosity. I was so embarrassed for the BBC I could not pick up the phone to complain. Not even a ‘well that’s a bit unlikely isn’t it? There might be more probable suspects” Fox News eat your heart out.

    I thought the National good today.

  133. Patrician says:

    For all those saying it is terrible to see the Labour Party reduced to this, all I can say is, this is the way the Labour party has always been; twisted, riven with conflict and interested in only the people of the party. It is just that the veil has been lifted from your eyes and you now get to see the horrible abomination in all its glory.

  134. WRH2 says:

    Claire Baker’s husband, Richard Baker is standing down as an MSP at the end of this parliament. Doesn’t that suggest they know they are facing wipeout? It suggests they don’t want to run the risk of both being out of work.

  135. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Cadogan Enright –

    Hoping to catch your eye when you’re hereabouts.

    Would you be interested in attending a ‘Friends of WOS’ seminar somewhere in central Scotland, if one is organised, say Easter-ish next year?

    Just asking…nae pressure!

  136. Bill Fraser says:

    To the reader who said Brewer isn’t thick as she earns 4 times her salary I’d like to say that the money you make has no bearing on a persons intelligence.Half the Westminster M.P.’s(Excluding the S.N.P.)are living proof of that.

  137. Graham MacLure says:

    WRH2 says: Claire Baker’s husband, Richard Baker

    Is that the same Richard Baker who seems to be the Political Editor for the Press and Journal?

  138. caz-m says:

    Cadogan Enright

    Maybe France and England will just nuke I.S.

    After all, don’t they tell us that these Nuclear bombs that we have are to keep us safe from terrorists.

    I don’t know how you kill a terrorist with a Nuclear bomb without wiping out half of the world’s population.

    Why am I not surprised at this attack.

    Watch out London, you could be next.

    It’s another senseless waste of life.

    Our thoughts are with the victims of this murderous atrocity.

  139. Gary45% says:

    I reckon Brillos bunnet is one of the those fibre optic lights.
    They are normally white then blue, so A Ns must be a custom hairpiece light, Cuprinol, dark oak with shades of mahogany.
    Looking forward to Daily politics when he interviews The Trump, I reckon the bunnets will try and breed.

  140. Peter Craig says:

    Religous zealotry is the scourge of our time, I am sure all our thoughts are with the innocents of Paris.

  141. frankieboy says:

    A- Can you lend me a fiver?
    B- I only have a pound
    A- Ok, I’ll take that and you can owe me the other £4

  142. Capella says:

    @ Gary45%
    You might enjoy “Redacted Tonight” on Trump. Why wait? Insomniacs awake!

  143. Robert Peffers says:

    @R-type Grunt says: 13 November, 2015 at 10:41 pm:

    “Re: Carmichael. Note that the only criticism he gets is from SNP & Indy folk. Tories, Labour? They don’t care. Why? Because he’s one of them.

    I’ve been telling you that for yonks. They are all, “The Establishment”. The Royals, Aristocracy, Financial Sector, Armed Forces, Security service, Civil Service, Church of England, English Public school system, The Media, Police services, English legal services and the Unionist political parties. That is the upper echelons of these organisations not the common five eights.

  144. Papadox says:

    @Robert Peffers says: 11:51 PM

    Right on the button Robert the tentacles of the establishment reach everywhere. There is a state within the state and labour/libs are part of that mirage.

  145. Robert Louis says:

    Capella at 1058pm,

    Completely agree. The BBC always tries to present any Scottish culture as part of a ‘British’ theme. They would never have a programme on RLS as a Scottish writer, but would have him as part of a programme on ‘Great British writers who made Britain great’, or some such union jack w*nkery. The point is though, such decisions by the BBC are no accident.

    According to wikipedia, RLS is the 26th most translated author in the world. It is hard to find somebody who doesn’t know of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde or treasure island.

  146. Glesca Keelie says:

    Labour in Scotland is like the birds gamekeepers catch and stake out to lure other birds in to be killed.
    Labour are the Tories lures for the left and the working class, the sheepdogs to corral the masses in the fank of the establishments making. Who think of Labour as they once were, or might have been, although ah hae ma doots. They are only there to keep the proles in their place. And conned.
    As they did with gusto before the referendum.
    I’ve read testimony from during the 1926 General strike and the thirties including from my mother who was active in Springburn in the depression and it seems it was the communists , not Labour, or the ILP who were anywhere to be seen even then.
    Terrible, terrible events in Paris tonight.

  147. Iain More says:

    They remind me of something from Lost In Space the older TV series

    [to Robot]

    Dr. Smith: Now come along with me, you ludicrous lump, there’s much to be done.

  148. Onwards says:

    The Paris attacks are awful. Over 140 dead, many young people in the concert hall.
    Sure to be major repurcussions from this.

  149. yesindyref2 says:

    @Robert Kerr
    “Baker grew up in Kelty and attended the University of Edinburgh. Then a doctorate in English Literature at the University of Glasgow. She is married to the Labour politician Richard Baker, one parliamentary seat of choice Region North East Scotland holds.

    Her maiden name was Claire Brennan.

  150. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Just a wee note – it’s now 1.15 am, and the last visible post on this thread is yesindyref2 @ 12.41 am

  151. yesindyref2 says:

    @Ian Brotherhood
    Yes, I’ve noticed that in the past few days as well, a sudden gap of half an hour or more, then postings start again. I also get occasionally “you’re forbidden from posting on this server” or some such message, try again and mostly it works.

  152. Chic McGregor says:

    Maybe a lot of folk were just in shock at the events in Paris.

    The bombs near the Stade du Paris seem to have been designed to create a Heysel or Ibrox plus kind of disaster but was averted by the common sense of the authorities by making no announcement over the PA.

  153. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @yesindyref2 –

    I’m reading your 1.19 post, and it’s the latest.

    It’s 1.43 as I send this.

  154. Chic McGregor says:

    Sorry Stade du France I think.

  155. Lenny Hartley says:

    Rev tweeted yesterday that he was experiencing hardware issues.

    No doubt this site will be subject to ongoing denial of service attacks.

  156. call me dave says:

    Some opinion that ‘Britain could leave the EU’ even if Scots and Welsh vote to remain.

    ‘Britain’ = UK = England I suppose.

    The first successful urban warfare attack in Europe! Paris.

    I have family visiting there since yesterday… 🙁
    Fingers crossed!

  157. Grouse Beater says:


    More atrocities followed by eloquent pronouncements of outrage.

    Last time it happened one politician, Isaac Herzog, said, “All the nations that seek peace and freedom [face] an enormous challenge” from brutal violence.”

    Yes. That is so. But the ‘brutal’ reality is, it’s our terrorism versus their terrorism.

  158. Lenny Hartley says:

    Sandy thom upset at BBC Anti Scottish Bias

  159. Marco McGinty says:

    Shortly after the referendum, I knew the people of Scotland were going to be shafted by the Smith Commission, and relentlessly targeted by the unionists politicians in Westminster, and it was also obvious that the media would do their utmost to try and annihilate the SNP, so I did hope that the SNP would simply step aside for a few short years and allow the unionists to run things, both here and at Westminster. It is what the people wanted after all.

    There’s still a part of me that hopes they will do so. I truly hope that the SNP accept the Scotland Bill, then decide not to stand for the forthcoming Scottish elections.

    The unionist politicians, and the MSM, after months of hammering out their propaganda about how great the Scotland Bill is, especially with all of those super-duper new powers that Scotland will benefit from, would surely have no issue about taking on this poisoned chalice. The mess is their creation, so it would only be fair to allow them to lead the country through these tough times.

    With another four years of a UK Tory government, and with the prospect of five years with either Kezia or Ruthie in position as First Minister, by the end of those terms, the people of Scotland will be screaming for independence.

  160. yesindyref2 says:

    Anas Sarwar to hold a banquet for 500 members of the Labour party to share his vision of Scotland, no doubt one where Labour abstained when given a chance to get rid of the tax credit cuts, and voted against them being devolved to Scotland in the Scotland Bill, hence removing hundreds, thousands of pounds from thousands of needy families struggling to put food on the table.

    You couldn’t make it up.

    Meanwhile it looks like there are foodbank wars in Glasgow.

  161. bugsbunny says:

    The people of France will want revenge for what has happened and will not care if their intended targets have nothing whatsoever to do with this outrage. I’m afraid more blood will flow because of this. This is only the start.

    I wish the whole world could just live in peace. “My imaginary friend is better than your imaginary friend”. Pathetic.

    I was in a kebab shop in Ayr just after midnight, and even though the owners and workers in there were spitting blood, and condemning these murdering bastards to hell, they were still getting shouted at. Folks blood were up, and ready to attack anyone in their way.

    This does not bode well for the future. And this isn’t even France. Fuck me sideways as they say. This is only the start. As it say’s in the Old Testament, an eye for an eye and all that. Well to quote Gandhi, “An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind”. This world is truly fucked.


  162. yesindyref2 says:

    Let’s hope it’s just an immediate reaction, and heads will cool.

  163. bugsbunny says:

    Cadogan Wright@11.07

    Everyone knows that it is Saudi Arabia who are financing Islamic State. Why would Iran, which is Shia, finance Islamic Militants who are Sunni, who are slitting the throats of Shia Muslims? All these half wit apologists that are saying even Muslims are getting murdered, so it’s political and not sectarian. Well, apart from those Sunni Muslims fighting Islamic Sate, those Muslim non combatants are Shia. Sunni’s don’t even recognise Shia as a Muslim Religion. Protestants and Catholics have nothing on the hatred these two lots have for each other. Apart from a few procedures about how to bow and materials to pray on, the main difference, as far as I know, is that Shias follow the bloodline of Muhammad, through his daughter Fatima, and the Sunnis don’t. In the eyes of each other, that makes the other infidels. They hate each others guts.

    Well, we can’t blame the Ultra Orthodox Saudi Monarchy can we? They sell us their oil, and we sell them Military Hardware. And blame others for atrocities. The west has as much blood on their hands over Paris than Islamic State do. And I’m not talking about Iraq/Afghanistan/Palestine. Sucking up to Saudi Royalty and turning a blind eye is guilt enough. Oh, and the C.I.A funding the cunts in the first place. Starting with Afghanistan in 1979.


  164. bugsbunny says:

    I’m with you Indy but I can’t see that happening. You should have seen the hatred in the eyes of the customers. You may call them Fascists/Racists/Drunks. That’s what I thought as well. Then I went and got a tenners worth of food from Tescos. It was even worse inside. They were, (the customers), even yelling at two Sikh men. Sikhs ffs. Not that it would be any better if they were Muslims?

    The Hindu’s will be next? I suppose if your white or Chinese you are safe? But I wouldn’t bet on it.

    If that is what they are like at non muslims, God help any Muslim that even suggests any type of explanation, that doesn’t have them wailing and gnashing of teeth in outright condemnation on this. I’m not being racist, because I’m not.

    There was a wee lassie about 20 in with her boyfriend coming back from a wedding. He was Scottish and she was French. He was telling everyone that she broke down at the end of the wedding as her parents live in that part of Paris and she needed to fly home. As she was in the toilet, (he went in Tesco for more drink, why he didn’t go straight home I’ll never know? with a bloody taxi running it’s meter outside). That’s when two Sikh guys trying to enter the store were shouted at, and both run back to their car. No fucking security or any staff around. Typical.

    If this is happening here, God help the Muslims in France. And if any over here start burning flags and shouting in the street, well lets say, if I wasn’t Lilly White as they say in the deep south, I’d emigrate to the fucking North Pole.

    Thank God I’m an Agnostic. Religion, especially the Abrahamic variety, and particularly the Fundamentalist ones, give me the Dry Boak.


  165. Petra says:

    Well I just spent AGES tonight putting together a post about the situation in France and the HELLISH situation worldwide, especially for children. Who has caused this (to a great extent Colonial Britain) and is it possible to turn it around now? … the chickens coming home to roost. For one BP continuing to remove oil from Iraq as Iraq stagnates and has been totally decimated due to UK and US ‘intervention’.

    Anyway I lost it! Lost it! … eyes blazing!

    The bottom line to my wee rant (big, lost post) is that Scotland is not too poor, wee or stupid at all. If we could get our Independence we are big enough, rich enough and of course clever enough (insightful, compassionate and kind enough) to make a massively, constructive difference Worldwide when we get rid of the Warmongering, Westminster shackles. An insurmountable challenge? Yes? Probably? Maybe? Maybe not. I actually think we could lead the way.

    I wanted to add a brilliant Pink Floyd Dogs of War You-tube video but it’s been deleted now … surprise, surprise (who was behind removing that?!) I’ll post these videos instead but they are far (FAR, FAR) from portraying the true reality of what’s actually going on (far worse images on you-tube) in the Middle East.

    I’m a member of Amnesty International and the ways and means of torturing and killing thousands / millions of people worldwide (including babies and young children) is being ‘downplayed’ by our Government and UK CorpMedia. Shame, shame, long lasting shame on them. It would sicken you to your very soul if you knew (and maybe you do know what the UK has been involved in) what our warmongering Government has been up to / involved in.

    Time for ALL Scots (such as Labour supporters) to fight for our Independence. Let’s get to hell out of here.

  166. bugsbunny says:

    Can’t fault you in anything you have said Petra. Apart from being a member of the SNP and an ex Red Cross volunteer, I’m a Member of CND and contribute £10 a month to 5 different charities. I’m on benefits it’s all I can afford, including Water Aid and Save the Children. I’m sick with both what is coming out of France and peoples reaction to anyone not white or East Asian at the very least. God knows how this will play out in France? It will be Kristallnacht all over again, except the Crescent and not the Star of David will be the target this time.

    Ultimately Colonialism and our stance over Israel/Palestine has a lot to answer for. Oh and the West funding of Islamic Groups during the cold war as well. All so the Rednecks can get, as they say over the pond, “cheap gas”.

    I can’t fucking sleep now. God knows what I’ll dream of if I do.

    All the best Petra.


  167. Al Dossary says:

    And when it all kicks off against the Muslim world, they will retaliate with even more fervour.

    Daesch, as the Arabs call the group have been attacking the Shia minority in Saudi for the last year. I spent about a year in the oilfields in Iraq, leaving just 18 months ago for Saudi. There were weekly attacks in and around Baghdad, Tikrik etc and regular attacks in Basrah which we were close to.

    These sole aim of these lunatics (the description from one of our Iraqi Engineers) is to goad the Shia majority in these regions to retaliate. It is to the Shia’s credit that they have not done so. To that extent there have been occasional attacks on Shia mosques around the kingdom for the last year.

    I fear the western countries populace will not show the same restraint as the Arab targets have.

    It probably is only a matter of time before they target either the state owned oil producer or a Western compound again.

    Finally to those who propose that the oil companies should pull out of Iraq, but their positions would just be taken by the Chinese, Korean or Russian companies who there already.

    And anyways, the Iraqis have negotiated the kind of deal the UK could only dream of (typically Shell and BP are only receiving $2 – $3 per barrel produced. To impoverish the Iraqi people would achieve nothing.

  168. Dorothy Devine says:

    Horrific reports of innocent deaths in France and my sympathies go to those involved.

    My sympathies also extend towards the Iraqis , Afghanis and Libyans destroyed by our “humanitarian interventions” about whom we hear and have heard so little.
    I include Syrians as there is little doubt that we have been interfering there in the name of ” moral authority and general superiority”.

    Children of a lesser God indeed.

  169. Ken500 says:

    The West has been illegally bombing the Middle East for years, and supporting and funding the Apartheid State of Israel and every Despot Apartheid State in the region. Regimes which would not be tolerated in France, UK and the US. They have illegally taken their assets for years. Churchill took all Iran’s Oil. The CIA/M15 caused unrest in Iran. They put put the PM in jail and took all the Oil. Brought back the deposed Shah.

    They are responsible for causing the worse migration crisis in Europe since the 11WW. Children growing up now will not remember a world at peace. It is the West who supported and supplied the Middle East with arms, including Daesch with arms. They are now supplying Iran with Nuclear. Iran have enough fuel and energy from Oil and renewables.

    The France/UK and the US have been meddling in the Middle East (Protectorates?) causing death and unrest since the 1913.1917 The Balfour Declaration. Nearly 100 years. France and Britain carved up the Middle East. In many of these countries supported by the West, people still do not have universal suffrage. It’s not only about the price of a barrel of Oil. The Israeli thugs have just entered a hospital and shot people. Johnston is in Israel. Israel is financed by the US. An Apartheid State whose policies would not be tolerated in the US. it is easy for those with freedoms to deny them to others, without considering the consequences. Or the poverty and deprivation.
    France, UK and the US will cause a 111WW.

    If Cameron is not reined in he will cause even more trouble.

  170. john king says:

    Notre Père, qui es aux cieux,
    Que ton nom soit sanctifié,
    Que ton règne vienne,
    Que ta volonté soit faite sur la terre comme au ciel.

    Donne-nous aujourd’hui notre pain de ce jour.
    Pardonne-nous nos offences
    Comme nous pardonnons aussi à ceux qui nous ont offensés.
    Et ne nous soumets pas à la tentation,
    mais délivre-nous du mal,
    car c’est à toi qu’appartiennent le règne,
    la puissance et la gloire, aux siècles des siècles.

    Read more:


  171. john king says:

    I coudnt agree more with Patrician,

    “For all those saying it is terrible to see the Labour Party reduced to this, all I can say is, this is the way the Labour party has always been; twisted, riven with conflict and interested in only the people of the party.”

    I had my eyes opened wide by the labour party way back in 1974 on my first foray into the polling booth only to be roundly ridiculed by local Labour party members (and councelors)for having the audacity to admit I voted SNP
    the embarresment I felt at their disgusting opprobrium ensured then that as long as I lived so help me I would NEVER vote labour and to this day that vow holds as firmly as it ever did.

  172. woosie says:


    Re Lord Byron described as English when he was born in Scotland; don’t forget that he couldn’t actually be officially recognised until he was English. Just like all the ” History of Britain ” type series we get from beebites like Scharma, etc, where Scotchland doesn’t exist until 1707!

    Anyway, back to Brewer. His boss is really Andra Niel, since BBC Sotland is another branch office, so he can’t say what he really feels, or press unseemly points on ukokers, without Oor Andra’s approval.

    And finally……
    It’s almost a shame Kez and slab aren’t staging a miraculous panto season revival. I can see the Scotch Sun headline; ” RELAX, TWANKY GOES TO HOLYROOD! “

  173. Bob Mack says:

    The horror of it all. The middle East, Paris, death and destruction of innocents everywhere. Hard to sleep last night.
    When politics creates these situations there is something far wrong.
    These are the situations created by Blair et al. These deaths lie at his door.No thought of the future,and no idea that the disenfranchised would ,or could fight back with the only weapons they had,including their own lives ,given to kill others ,to provide shock and fear.

    The world is a sadder place this morning,but for the life of me I cannot point the finger and say you were more guilty than the other man.It is the innocent who suffer on both sides.

    Sanity must return to end the madness and ferocity ,otherwise we are locked into a cycle of murder and revenge.

    Rest in peace ALL who have died everywhere as a result of political greed and pomposity .

  174. gus1940 says:

    Gordon Brewer had better watch his step or he will find himself keeping company with Izzy Fraser in BBC Scotland’s equivalent of Limoges.

  175. Macart says:

    @Bob Mack 8.44am

    Well said.

  176. I am not surprised that Claire Baker wouldn’t give Brewer an answer to his question on how Labour intends to find the money from to fund its mitigation of cuts to tax credits.

    But then that’s the problem, whenever Labour politicians are put under forensic questioning about their policies and how they are going to be funded they simply don’t have the answers.

    They are reduced to either stalling for time to think or simply deflect the questioner by waffling about some other issue.

  177. Bill McLean says:

    Byron was born in London but raised in Aberdeenshire!Not that I could care less. There are many claims about Scots being English – they need to feel good about themselves. Ignore!

  178. Ian says:

    gus1940.I live near Limoges and its a nice small city and would prefer you kept all your BBC rejects in the UK.
    That aside this is a real bad day for France my wife was going on a animal rights march today but its been cancelled.The French in this part of France are a laid back lot but i cannot see them taking this lying down.Where does Europe go from here in clearing up the mess created by Bush and Blair.

  179. Wuffing Dug says:

    Bob Mack @8.44


    I never really understood the origins of the conflict in the Middle East until I read ‘The Great War for Civilisation: The Conquest of the Middle East’ by Robert Fisk.

    A big read, but a real eye opener.

    Blair is just another heir in the destructive lineage.

  180. Chic McGregor says:

    Byron as the vicarious narrator of Don Juan made his own view fairly clear.

    “But I am half a Scot by birth, and bred /A whole one”

  181. S.P. says:

    @John King

    “Et ne nous soumets pas à la tentation,
    mais délivre-nous du mal”

    Thank you for reminding us particularly of these holy words of wisdom that God may restrain us and protect us from evil, which is often ourselves, in such moments of wrath.

  182. thomaspotter2014 says:

    My thoughts are with the families of the dead and injured in:


    And all the multitude of war zones around this planet.

    How can we change this destructive cycle of violence?

    We need to start a reversal of war mongering policy or it will only worsen.

    Are these conflicts designed solely for the profiteering of the elite 1%?

    Is that it?


    Is making another million acceptable though it heralds the end of humanity?

  183. gus1940 says:


    I referred to the ‘equivalent’ of Limoges which was a reference to the old tradition in The French Army of referring to officers who had disgraced themselves or offended the military authorities as ‘having been posted to Limoges’.

  184. Greg says:

    @Robert Kerr

    I have to admit, I did look before I posted and didn’t find reference to her graduating either which is why I stopped short of confirming that. I was giving her the benefit of the doubt I guess. It WAS 25 years ago 🙂 and I remember thinking she was pretty smart …but I assume you didn’t overlook my drummer status! 😉 No Labour apoligistizing intended, I feel only disappointment 🙁

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