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Wings Over Scotland


Getting ourselves together

Posted on June 25, 2016 by

So it’s all over for the United Kingdom.

Scotland (overwhelmingly) and Northern Ireland (less so) have voted to stay in Europe while England (decisively) and Wales (narrowly) have voted to leave. Northern Ireland has its own choices to make, but Scotland must now hold a second referendum.

saltireeu

The Scottish Government said before the referendum that it would only hold a second independence vote when the polls showed a significant lead for the independence camp. It needed to turn 45% into something more like 60%. Next week’s polls will show that and more, as well over the quarter of the 55% will choose the EU over the UK, while none of the 45% will switch the other way.

Alex Salmond has already suggested that the fresh referendum must take place within 30 months. He’s wrong in his uncharacteristic caution, though. It’ll have to happen much sooner than that.

There’s a likelihood that the new Tory leader will call a UK general election, then assuming he (or she) wins a handsome majority – which he or she will – there’ll be another 2 years or so of Brexit negotiations.

It would be literally senseless for Scotland to be part of the UK for those negotiations, only to leave immediately after and alter fundamentally the agreements just made on behalf of the UK. This would require the EU to start all over again, negotiating with England/Wales and Scotland (and Northern Ireland or even a united Ireland) over yet new terms.

Moreover, the new England-and-Wales entity would then require yet another general election because it would be an entirely new political construct. If Labour had won an election with the help of the SNP, the same negotiations and subsequent elections would have to take place.

So providing the polls next week do show over 60% in Scotland for independence, Nicola Sturgeon will have little choice but to press on with an early referendum. The dying UK government will not be in any position, morally or politically, to prevent it. Few Brexiteer Tories will seek to stop the Scots leaving; they’ll be too busy having a ball with their own arrangements.

There will have to be new Scottish elections after independence, of course. We can expect the SNP to continue to dominate an independent Scotland for some years, although Scotland will be a healthy democracy and a real opposition will emerge, since nature abhors a vacuum.

That opposition could even be the Scottish Labour Party one day, if it plays its cards right. For now, there’s only one card for Scottish Labour to play. It must support Scottish independence in Europe. This will be the acid test. If it does not it will die altogether, and will deserve to.

I have a feeling that Scottish house prices are about to go up. And the incomers will be voting FOR independence this time.

.

Eric Joyce is the former Labour MP for Falkirk. His website is here.

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heedtracker

Sorry Eric, Scottish Labour does not get to dictate to Scotland, on anything.

Rev. Stuart Campbell

Eric isn’t in Labour any more.

Croompenstein

I will place my trust in Nicola and the SNP they have got us to where we are and whatever they decide is in Scotland’s best interest.

wee folding bike

Kezia has already moved with the speed of a coiled panther to rule out Labour support for Indy Ref 2.

link to labourlist.org

Croompenstein

How ironic would it be if it was Kez and Slab who backed the legislation for indyref2 and wee Patrick and the Greens abstained. Forget about Ruth the Mooth and Prof Smirky and the Libs are irrelevant.

Brian McHugh

Great moment just there on the BBC, With Cameron standing looking burst at Armed Forces day between 2 medalled and dolled up soldiers… with Scotland The Brave on the bagpipes flowing over the scene.

Utterly brilliant. 😀

Itchybiscuit

Just imagine all of those companies getting ready to head across the channel having an alternative location in an indy Scotland?

As you say, Scotland will have to be quick off the mark to avoid losing out but even if the outcome is indy without any businesses relocating here, I’m Yes all the way (as ever).

Robert Louis

Have to say I completely agree with this analysis. The fact is events are moving incredibly fast, and whilst that does not mean we should act in haste, it also does not mean we have ‘2 years’.

As Eric points out, for the next couple of months at least, Westminster will be in no position to prevent such a move. Indeed, I suspect just from my own anecdotal experience over the last 24 hours, that the demand for referendum 2 is only going to get louder.

I concur on his opinions of polling data.

What people want is stability, and that will partly come from a positive response from the EU member states. We need matters to be addressed with some speed now. I do hope the Scotgov are in touch with the EU already, and if not, they need to move now.

Vambomarbeleye

A independent Scotland in Europe. Those that want to be in the EU can move to Scotland and those who don’t can move to England. Then every one can be happy. Most likely be best for both country’s on a number of different levels.

heedtracker

Eric isn’t in Labour any more.

Neither is Scotland.

Naebd

“no yes voters will switch to no”.

Well, INDYREF2 will present the vision of an independent Scotland in the EU, with ??? currency and an EU tariff border with its largest trading area, rUK. Indyref1 tried to sell an indy Scotland in the EU beside rUK, and in a currency union with rUK.

These are very different visions, so we can’t assume that everyone who bought the indyref1 vision will vote for the one presented to us during indyref2.

Tackety Beets

A little birdy close to Tory HQ has intimated GE Nov 2016

I feel the amount of Nos actively tweeting their switch to YES & support for a Indy Ref, it may be game over quite quickly.

Time will not heal this CUT very easily.

Robert Louis

As pointed out above, there may be many companies who would jump at the chance to move their bases to Scotland within the EU, rather than move to the continent. That is a REAL opportunity for the Scot Gov, but matter need settled much earlier in order to capitalise on such a scenario.

Big corporations will already be making their plans regarding a move for the EU.

carjamtic

The Tory Wrecking Crews have lived up to their billing and the markets are now out of limits.

Scotland will provide a safe haven,a sanctuary from the insanity of Brexit,let’s do it.

Indyref 2

Tom Anderson

Fixed term Parliament election can only take place if 2/3 vote for it – not going to happen

Vambomarbeleye

All England will have to trade will be some magic beans. Gordon has all ready traded the family cow for the beans. They will still have the old wifey in the magic hat. So they can sing their songs, wave their flags and in their delusion believe that they matter to the world.

Robert Louis

If I were a Labour strategist in Scotland, I would be grabbing these events with both hands, to undo the damage already done to Labour’s reputation. My advice for Kezia would be, back referendum2 and independence WITHIN the EU to the hilt, then we will have a chance of recovery at the subsequent Scottish elections.

Of course, I am not a Labour advisor, and common sense does not reside within the Labour Branch office at John Smith house, so it isn’t going to happen.

Steve Bowers

This is a bigger rush than 2014, let’s all welcome with open arms those changing no voters, a good convert is worth many more

galamcennalath

I share Eric’s optimism.

Scotland voted decisively to stay in the EU. This time, that was a rational decision, not influenced by false promises. In a Scottish context, it was quite different from IndyRef1. It has to stand as settled will.

Many Yes supporters were Leave. They must accept the EURef outcome and get back into the saddle for Indy.

Many NO supporters were Remain. Now they have to think long and hard about what they do next. Early indications are some will switch to Yes. Eric believes so, I think he is right.

To be honest, I think No supporters who voted Leave will be hardcore BritNats. The vast majority will never be persuaded about Indy or the EU. Some will, and we need to take as many along with us as possible.

Juteman

Scotland could end up in an enviable position, as EU companies presently in England move to Scotland.

Truth

You’ve had your troubles Eric, but I have respected your tone during the first indyref and your tone now.

In all honesty it’s likely I’d never vote labour (certainly in their current set up), but I would like to see you lead a truly Scottish labour party.

They could do a lot worse. Welcome aboard, bring as many as you can with us.

Kenny

Just a thought: I always predicted, using an historical model, that Scottish indy would come about (1) because of an outside shock (2) in 2017.

The main thought is staying in the EU. But what EU will there be? France, Holland and even Sweden might be poised to also vote “Leave” in a couple of years’ time. The youth of Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy will tell you that the current EU is unsustainable.

Our future must be in Europe. But it must be a Europe which is slightly different than the current EU model. Who says there is only one EU model? Where is it written that the current one is the “right” one?

I predict that there will be an EU Europe and an Alternative Europe. The Alternative Europe might be led by France with the Mediterranean countries on board. Because the French also are at the heart of Europe, but not necessarily THIS Europe of austerity and neoliberal economics.

We must be sure to be in the right Europe. The way for that is to get clued up and educated, for as many people as possible to get involved in democracy. Every EU citizen is a human being and it is wrong to treat them as economic units — as Remain found out to its cost in rUK on Thursday…

Walter Scott

It just doesn’t look likely that labour in Scotland would put their weight, such as it is, behind a push for a Scotland in Europe. Everything they have said in the past about an independendent Scotland doesn’t sound like there’ll be much support coming from them. Some even said they would prefer continuous tory rule than live in a country where they could make a positive contribution in their country’s future. Things are changing almost hourly & the dust hasn’t settled yet but it would so heartwarming if some in Scottish Labour broke ranks & fought for something worthwhile for a change.
Beyond our southern border there’s been a coup by an aggressive xenophobes. We must stand together with the exception of Fat Boab Davidson who will be banging the Lambeg drum to let her loyal followers know it’s time to take their country back. So, Willie Rennie, Kezia Dugdale, Daily Record. Your’e country needs you.

Effijy

wee folding bike says:

25 June, 2016 at 1:43 pm

Kezia has already moved with the speed of a coiled panther to rule out Labour support for Indy Ref 2.

More Importantly, Scotland has already ruled out having anything to do with Dipity Dug and North British Labour!

Bob Mack

Personally I think Nicola is playing a blinder. Very determined and also being inclusive of those who would only be reluctantly dragged out of the UK. Thai is the true test of a great states person.

She could press all sorts of grievance buttons but she remains focused,thoughtful ,measured and decisive.

What a gift she would have been to any parliament in the world.We are very very lucky to have her,and I trust her judgement completely.

Truth

@itchybiscuit

If Scotland retains membership of the EU it is a fact that businesses MUST move here. You cannot do business in an EU member states without having an office there.

Just look at all the products you buy, there’s an Irish address to contact as well as a (usually) London one. Well, that London one can’t stay in London, it certainly can’t represent an independent Scotland.

Thomas Hefferin

I really don’t think we’re going to see the 60% mark broken next week.

When people really start to feel the effects of Brexit on their daily lives, then and only then will the time be right to push for IndyRef_2.

There is also still the question of currency – That question needs to be clearly and emphatically resolved beforehand, otherwise all we’re doing is re-running IndyRef_1. Same arguments – same outcome.

I think it’s right that the Scottish government prepares for that day, but patience is needed if we really want to overturn the decision made in 2014.

Robert Louis

Truth at 2pm,

Yip. Agree, ALL are welcome. The more we have the better. People were quite right to vote how they wanted at the last referendum, that is democracy.

If people now wish to vote for indy, then they are welcome. Even JK.

heedtracker

Scotland will provide a safe haven,a sanctuary from the insanity of Brexit,let’s do it.

Indyref 2

This looks like classic railroading. We have absolutely no idea whether or not the EU will allow Scotland EU membership, nothing. If EU rules are adhered to, just one of the EU members blocks Scotland. Spain probably.

England’s not going to give up control of half its territory, even with any of the above made completely clear.

EU stayed out of our 2014 ref completely and its likely Barnett will be cut even more by the PM Bojo UK government, trying to bullshit away the coming Brexit recession for the next few years.

So calm down.

Jim McIntosh

Just put this up on the last thread should have been this one:

I might be paranoid but can see the following scenario.

Over the next week or so the economy tanks, the pound tanks ev n further, the EU play hardball in every conceivable way and people start to worry that they’ve done the wrong thing. Labour call a vote of no confidence in the government. This is backed by EUrophile Tories and a general election is called.

Remembering that the referendum is only advisory and must be ratified by the parliament, both Tory and Labour parties put in their manifesto that they will refuse to ratify the referendum. So whoever wins the referendum does not get ratified, and the parliamentarians overrule the electorate.

Scotland can’t then use this reason for Indy2, NI stays part of the U.K., and Gibraltar stays the same.

Is this possible?

asklair

I do not post here often and I see my post earlier on has been deleted.

call me dave

Missed all the news so far as I’ve been away early morning.
I hear Nicola has spoken but only found a cut down version on the shortbread news site.

Anybody got a link to the full speech?

Some NO voters coming across the floor too I hear.

PS: Update from SNP.

This Is Saturday,
Last 24hrs: 1500 new members to SNP
(welcome all!)

‘Scottish’ labour changing to support Indy2, Deputy Deadwood in denial but she can be ousted just the same as Corbyn darn South.

The more I read and reflect I genuinely think the Brexit mob did not expect to win and have been left holding the baby with a shitty union jack nappie with no idea of the disaster they were about to create and have no plans to extricate themselves either.

Scotland get ready for a GE I think.

Robert Louis

heedtracker,

Scotland is not applying to join the EU, it is trying to prevent being removed from the EU – a very big difference.

As regards Spain, just two words, fishing fleet.

It is fundamentally in the interests of the EU for Scotland to remain.

One_Scot

Yip, strike while the iron is hot, may never get a more golden opportunity again. Free shot at an open goal.

Brian Powell

Apparently the Brit EU Referendum has nothing to do with the EU Ministers and they should mind their own business, not ask the UK do things, and the UK will do it when it suits the boys in Westminster.

Bob Mack

@Jim Mcintosh,

Your summary of the situation is correct,but there is a huge elephant in the room for that scenario. The EU leaders are pushing strongly for section 50 to be implemented now rather than wait for three weeks ,let alone months There is clear evidence of contagion. They have intimated the process must start now,and once started it is irreversible.The UK is heading out of Europe but not necessarily within their preferred timescales.

Donald Urquhart

Jim McIntosh @ 2:07 pm says:

Is this possible?

Yes, it’s called a coup

Valerie

@Brian McHugh

I saw that! I nearly dropped my coffee, trying to sit down without breaking my stare at the screen.

It was surreal. He really was on the verge of bubbling. WTF was he thinking?

Mchaggis69

Despite what my twitter and fb feeds show, I’d personally like to actually see the polls on indy2 before making any judgement.

schrodingers cat

welcome on board
Eric “don’t fuck wi’ me” Joyce

when you punch yon tory’s lights oot at westminster, labour should have given you a fuckin’ medal lol, anothe labour #epicfail

seriously though folks, we need a real discussion on the way forward. btw eric, get yersel down to the next yes falkirk meeting link to facebook.com

carjamtic

Heedtracker @ 2:07

All is calm….

No railroading….as you mibbe noticed,we mostly do logical joined up thinking in Scotland….easy now.

Slange

Sands

Having thought I’d have a day off from shouting at the TV, I found myself hurling abuse at the radio instead, where Ken Clarke, Emily Thornbury, Chris Grayling and the UKIP guy united to come up with a list of spurious reasons not to call for a second referendum in Scotland.

I think my favorite was that the SNP had lost the mandate for indy in SP16. Oh,and that it would cause instability.

A Welcome Home

Eric does not speak for Labour.

So until Labour support Scottish Independence his own personal views on the matter do not carry any significant weight.

Only when his view that Labour “must support Scottish independence in Europe” has been proven true can anyone possibly then give any credence or thought to his second imperative, “Scotland must now hold a second referendum”.

Sorry Eric, that’s only reasonable. Prove yourself right first on Labour’s stance then we should give your opinions on timing some consideration.

Until then it would be absolute folly to second guess the First Minister and Alex Salmond’s team.

They are thoroughly engaged in this process at every level and are not working on mere speculation but the facts.

The Westmisnter and Scottish elections are overwhelming proof that we have already the best people in place to move forward and achieve Independence.

Those who disagree with that can feel free to put forth their own opinions on the matter. Nothing wrong with that after all.

However, the reality is there is simply no question of anyone other than the SNP and Nicola being our best hope for IndyRef2 since we have the level of public trust, election results and EU referendum result to prove that conclusively.

Graham

“For now, there’s only one card for Scottish Labour to play. It must support Scottish independence in Europe.”

Problem with that idea Eric is that Kez and her branch of British Labour In Scotland are in no position to change Labour policy regarding Scottish independence.

Juteman

Just a thought. If we can hold a referendum before the 2 years for the UK to leave are up, and assuming there is a Yes vote in that ref, would we actually have left the EU?

laukat

Was it just me or has Nicola not now stated twice to the EU that the UK no longer speaks for Scotland? Its nowhere near a UDI but it does declare to the Scottish public that the only way forward is through the Scottish government

I expect this to move quickly. I expect polls next week of 60/40 in favour of Independence with more and more prominent No voters declaring for Yes. I think by the end of next week we will be talking about an Indyref in March 2017

call me dave

Guardian:

The first minister has disclosed that she is to invite all EU diplomats based in Scotland to a summit at her official residence in Edinburgh within the next two weeks, in a bid to sidestep the UK government.

link to archive.is

Brexit wipes $2tn off markets as Moody’s lowers UK credit rating outlook

link to archive.is

HandandShrimp

So far Nicola is pitching this all absolutely spot on and is looking a damned sight more level headed, calm and logical than the shambles in Westminster.

ahundredthidiot

I think Eric is right about one thing, we do not have the luxury of time, no need to flap of course, but there does need to be a sense of urgency.

Indyref 2 in May 2017 for me with independence 12 months later, should we be successful.

Our reality is accepting the Euro as currency to join.

[…] So it’s all over for the United Kingdom.Scotland (overwhelmingly) and Northern Ireland (less so) have voted to stay in Europe while England (decisively) and Wales (narrowly) have voted to leave. Northern Ireland has its own choices to make, but Scotland must now hold a second referendum.  […]

Dave

Why not a reverse Greenland it left the EU and is still part of Denmark. So England and Wales leave the EU and Scotland and NI stay. Simples.

heedtracker

carjamtic says:
25 June, 2016 at 2:24 pm
Heedtracker @ 2:07

All is calm….

Ofcourse:D

Its just all a bit disorientating watching unionists in Scotland going ref 2 now nuts.

Minds change but if we did charge into ref 2 asap and lose…

Jim McIntosh

Donald Urquhart says:
25 June, 2016 at 2:20 pm

“Yes, it’s called a coup”

But a very ‘British’ coup, as people would have voted for it. Everyone on the ballot could be called Hobson. ?

handclapping

So Dippity says Scotland doesn’t need independence but the devolved governments must be involved in the exit negotiations (LabourList.org)

Can the girl not see the anomaly? And she is the “leader”!

Bob Mack

@Juteman.

No, even the UK would be technically members for two years though activity and participation in decision making would be suspended. Scotland would therefore have continuous membership if the referendum was successful within that time frame. Other options would also be feasible to maintain consistency of membership.

A Welcome Home

We also have to deal with what is in front of us. The Scottish Council elections must be fought and fought hard for the SNP.

We want to do well there and it will be extremely valuable to know if those council elections will give us any kind of read into IndyRef2.

Not to mention the possibility of another Westminster G.E.

We have the will and the people to do all this but let’s not pretend there isn’t a great deal of hard work ahead.

We may have just finished EU campaigning but I, for one, still look forward to welcoming all those who can help us in that hard work ahead.

Every aspect of it will help us achieve Independence through IndyRef2.

The Scottish public deserve better than endless westminster chaos, hatred and uncaring tory rule. We will not let them down.

Al

Let’s give Nicola a chance to do her job. She has never given us cause to question her judgement before.

Meanwhile, it looks like the main EU countries have their own reasons to want to avoid making leaving the EU look like an easy option. If the UK want access to EU markets then the EU will be in a position to dictate terms and they will not want those terms to be too comfortable. Paradoxically, instead of “taking their country back”, the Brexit UK may be set to become Brussels’ new bitch.

Juteman

@Bob Mack
But we wouldn’t be in the UK when they were ejaculated.

Proud Cybernat

“The first minister has disclosed that she is to invite all EU diplomats based in Scotland to a summit at her official residence in Edinburgh within the next two weeks, in a bid to sidestep the UK government.” – The Guardian

Just make sure Aliar Carmichael is as far away from the effing summit as possible.

cearc

It is worth revisiting Craig Murray’s comment of the 9th. June.

‘…If we did see Brexit, I would argue for Holyrood MSPs and Scotland’s Westminster MPs to meet together as a National Assembly and declare Independence, to be followed by a confirmatory referendum, the object of the Delcaration being to maintain the rights of Scots as EU citizens. There would be a great deal of international sympathy for that, and as I have continually explained, as a matter of firm and indisputable international law you achieve Independence through recognition by other states, not by any arrangement or otherwise with the residual UK.’

link to craigmurray.org.uk

It looks rather like the route that Nicola is taking.

Thepnr

“I think by the end of next week we will be talking about an Indyref in March 2017”

Would make a lot of sense to me if any future Referendum took place after the Scottish Council elections in 2017.

I very much hope too for a brief canvassing period between announcing a date and having the vote. We all start canvassing now of course.

Regarding Erics 60/40 lead for Yes in the next poll/s bit skeptical myself at this stage be happy enough to see 55/45.

Juteman

@laukat
Well observed. UDI but not UDI?

Thepnr

The May elections will be the best guide to support for SNP and Independence post the Brexit vote as the biggest test of public opinion in Scotland since last Thursday.

Gordon Ross

I agree with most of this but there are a couple of parts that I would question.

Will the next Tory leader call an election? We’ll soon know but there is a strong possibility that they will just rely on the current Tory majority for the next four years. What do they have to gain from a GE?

There will be some Yes voters who would vote no if asked to choose between EU or UK. I know of a couple already. There will be far more No voters who switch but we have to ensure there are enough to gain a majority this time.

An early move for Indyref2 is essential to allow companies to have a choice between relocating to Scotland or mainland Europe. These additional jobs and investment in Scotland would be a good incentive to attract support but also as a counter to the lies that we saw before and will see again.

The big difference between the last Indy ref and the EU ref was that they could not in the latter rely on the media to parrot their lies. A case in point was the interference from that lying two faced twonk from the US. Blanket coverage in one case and hardly a cheep on the other.

schrodingers cat

lots about what nicola should do,

little about what the grass roots should do

the snp cannot and wont launch the yes2 movement. that is for us to do. indeed, no snp mp, msp or councilor can even be seen to be part of any grass roots organisation (yes2, lfi etc) until the date for indyref2 is actually announced

it is all very well stating that we need to organise, but the question remains? how?

FergusMac

I hope that the Scottish Government will now cut Fluffy Mundell and the Fifth Column otherwise known as the Scottish Office out of the loop.

[…] Wings Over Scotland Getting ourselves together So it’s all over for the United Kingdom. Scotland (overwhelmingly) and Northern […]

Croompenstein

Our reality is accepting the Euro as currency to join

Stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop…

this pish

FergusMac

I hope that the Scottish Government will now cut Fluffy Mundell and the Fifth Column known as the Scottish Office out of the loop.

schrodingers cat

Thepnr says:
25 June, 2016 at 2:53 pm
The May elections will be the best guide to support for SNP and Independence post the Brexit vote.

agreed, it will also give nicola the chance to confirm unoquivocally her democratic mandate to hold indyref2. and if it is another wipeout for the unionist councillors, then controlling all 32 councils means the snp can actually hold indyref2, whether bojo says we can or not.

i still think that yes2 needs to organise and start campaigning sooner than this

@cearc

If The Donald wins in the USA he would definitely recognise Scotland if UDI was declared.

keaton

This site said on May 6th that “independence is now categorically and unequivocally off the table for at least half a decade”. Can we now take it that post was just written in anger and didn’t have any truth content?

Kenny Ritchie

The irony being that the greatest gift to Scottish independence was a Tory majority government.

ScottieDog

Eric,
Huge escalation in house prices are a function of the London Ponzi scheme. We want house prices to decrease and the the population to deleverage its private debt.

jcd

Earlier on Boom Bust RT Ed Harrison said that Nicola Sturgeon (or he might have been referring to SNP/SG policy) wants an independent Scotland within the EU, and using the Euro. He went on to say that by doing so Scotland would be exchanging one set of constraints for another, and he’s got a point. Is this true, has she actually said that about using the Euro, or is Harrison just misinformed?

Would really appreciate if someone could clear that up.

RT isn’t against Scots indy, but they’re not particularly for it either. Quite often as and when Scottish affairs come up they have on unionist commentators spouting their lies and bilge and it’s left unchallenged, just as with msm here. In RT’s case though I think it might have something to do with the fact that most if not all of their uk staff are English home counties types who while not necessarily opposed to Scots indy just don’t know much about Scotland either.

Anyway the currency thing really needs to get sorted out pronto, now that it’s looking like we may well be going for indyref2 sooner than might have been expected. Like I asked before, can anyone fill me in on what the SNP/SG is saying/proposing re an independent Scotland’s unit of currency would be.

Somehow I’m not sure that proposing we accept the Euro would be a good idea, questionable judgement.

heedtracker

Kenny Ritchie says:
25 June, 2016 at 3:02 pm
The irony being that the greatest gift to Scottish independence was a Tory majority government.

Except it wasnt Ken. England voted tory so hard, it would have made no difference if SLab had won back its 40 odd wee low flyers last GE.

Sorry dude. England’s tory. That’s the reality

heedtracker

Huge Brexit thing in FT

London fights for its future Follow
Banks begin moving some operations out of Britain
ECB official warns on loss of EU ‘passporting’ rights for UK financial services

Banks have already begun to take action to shift operations out of the UK, with the governor of France’s central bank warning on Saturday that Britain’s financial services were at risk of losing their right to operate across the EU.”

If City of Lnndon really is Crash Gordon’s UKOK economic powerhouse, maybe we can get back to actually making stuff again, maybe we;ll have no choice.

Colken

Heedtracker

My family are from a fishing village on the west coast. Most voted Yes first time round and leave in this referendum. I can say with some certainty that they won’t vote Yes again if their livelihoods are sacrificed for the greater good. Some compromise has to be found there.

Fred

“Take Back Control!”

Kenny Ritchie

heedtracker says:
25 June, 2016 at 3:11 pm
Kenny Ritchie says:
25 June, 2016 at 3:02 pm
The irony being that the greatest gift to Scottish independence was a Tory majority government.

Except it wasnt Ken. England voted tory so hard, it would have made no difference if SLab had won back its 40 odd wee low flyers last GE.

Sorry dude. England’s tory. That’s the reality

But, if there hadn’t been a Tory majority, there would have been no EU referendum, no Brexit, and no forthcoming independence referendum.

jimnarlene

If Kez doesn’t back indyref2.0, before the local elections, she will be facing the third phase of “Labour” extinction.

Callum

Every new Scot must be welcomed. Sure, there could be a lot of new Scots from down south, EU, further afield and returning Scots but we’ll squeeze everyone in and make it work.

Juteman

Loads of new posters saying their best mates dog voted Yes last time, but they will vote No this time if it means staying in the EU. The dog seemingly voted Leave in this referendum.
What a load of pish. The Yes vote last time meant staying in the EU!
The British State trolls have started early! 🙂

Richardinho

Good article but interesting also on a meta level: If you’d told me a couple of years ago that Eric Joyce was the answer, I’d have been worried about what the question was!

Yet the way that he has reformed and reinvented himself in recent times is an example to many others in the unionist establishment that they don’t have to cling to the wreckage of the SLP as it nosedives towards the ocean floor.

Hopefully others will follow this example and If in ten years time Scotland is independent I guarantee that you will struggle to find anyone who ever was against it.

And by the way: That’s a good thing.

Martin Richmond

“Eric Joyce is the former Labour MP for Falkirk.”

You forgot… In two separate years the Westminster MP who claimed the highest level of expenses and a violent criminal. Context.

Petra

Thanks for the excellent article Eric. Really appreciated.

One or two posters on here have complained over time about the ‘ineffectiveness’ of the SNP; more so Nicola. I reckon that Nicola knows exactly what she’s doing and that a great deal goes on behind the scenes that we are totally unaware of.

She’ll understand the timeline of carrying out another Referendum versus RUK’s exit from Europe but more than anything she’ll be keeping an eye on the polls hoping to see at least 60% support, consistently, over a period of time. She’ll do this because we can’t afford to lose again.

The sooner this happens the better of course because Westminster will come out with all guns blazing. We’ll be threatened with ‘security’ issues, the Turks and terrorists flooding Scotland and so on. As to the latter we may find that the EU decides to reverse its open border policy just as England et al are leaving.

Kezia Dugdale? Well what can one say? She seems to have totally lost the plot and is now openly showing her utter contempt for the Scots. Westminster’s way or no way. A Westminster that looks as though it will be run by the Tories, Fascist Tories at that, for decades to come. Is this what she wants to subject the Scots to? She who bleats on constantly about caring for our children: NOT. She and Murphy lost many members to the SNP. Will many more Labour supporters leave to join us now or parties such as Labour for Independence? Maybe Stu could carry out some research to this effect? Are there any Labour supporters out there now? If so how many? How many have left to join other partys and what effected their decisions?

And then there’s the Tory and Lib-dem partys in Scotland. What are they going to do post Independence? Every last one of their politicians have shown, clearly, that they have no belief whatsoever in Scotland being able to ‘go it’ alone. Would the Scots want such ‘cringe’ people, worst still destructive, subversive (slaying Nats) elements, making decisions for us in Holyrood? Making decisions for a Nat filled Scotland? Knowing their love of Westminster will they head south or will their members join Scottish Tory and Lib-dem partys for Independence?

Valerie

@laukat

My thoughts too, after her first speech, and confirmed in her second. UDI soft.

Speeches by our FM, are leaving no room for misinterpretation, especially by those watching closely in Europe. Distance from WM essential for Europe and business.

Ruth stupidly asserts indyref2 would create instability.

heedtracker

Colken says:
25 June, 2016 at 3:15 pm
Heedtracker

My family are from a fishing village on the west coast. Most voted Yes first time round and leave in this referendum. I can say with some certainty that they won’t vote Yes again if their livelihoods are sacrificed for the greater good. Some compromise has to be found there.

This does seem to be the consensus of some opposition to Scotland running Scotland. Problem is, “fishing communities” like yours have nearly emptied our seas and oceans of life and much of it was done before the EU came into being.

Do you see the problem? Its EU rules and regs that have at the very least stopped “fishing communities” like yours from catching everything.

And the idea of giving back control of what’s left out there to “fishing communities” like yours, is probably the end of life in the north sea and the Atlantic ocean.

But what can you do, lets Leave and have our BoJO and Faragian UKOK independence day.

Dal Riata

Sorry, O/T

Anyone know of an at least semi-reliable internet site (or two) to watch the footy Euro matches, um, as they are being played? I had a couple of go-to sites up to today, but they’re now virus carriers, FFS! So can anyone please help out? Pretty please?

Inkall

It strikes me as odd for previously yes voters to say they will vote no because of the eu as in 2014 there was a good chance we would be staying in the eu.

Croompenstein

Do you ken whit I am getting pretty pissed off with the fishermen in this country with their fuckin SNP Baad and Holyrood Baad pish when neither have any control of the fishing industry.

Westminster has been shitting on fishermen for as long as I can remember. I can remember the big rally at Tynecastle in 1992 and for the thickos that is before the Scottish parliament was reconvened.

Here is hansard from 1992 with a certain Mr Alex Salmond fighting the Scottish fishermans corner in Westminster. Do you ever stop to think that maybe a Scottish government would get a better deal for fishermen than the UK ever would. Stop fuckin moaning and waving your butchers aprons.

link to publications.parliament.uk

Croompenstein

@Dal Riata –

link to tvcatchup.com

laukat

@Valerie – Have a look at this tweet from Faisal Islam, Sky News reporter, he gets it link to twitter.com

I’ve just been polled by yougov and part of that was the independence question. If Survation and Yougov are polling and it comes back 60/40 Yes then this will move very quickly. I would expect the polls to come out on Monday based on previous patterns.

schrodingers cat

interesting from nicola

she calls all 27 consulates for a meeting

this is no doubt to here the official position of their respective countries vis a vis scotland.

she will also ask them if their heads of government are willing to meet her to discuss…

i think they will, especially since the tories are delaying negotiations for 3 months to elect a new pm and the eu want negotiations to start immediately.

seeing nicola being met by hollande in paris will tell you all you need to know.

it looks more like camerons promise to involve the 4 devolved governments in negotiations was a plea to nicola not to go above his head.

if the consulates agree, nicola should appoint a junior minister to lead westminster negotiations

revenge is sweet

“cameron, she never writes….she never phones etc”
snigger

Paula Rose

Seeing as how an Independent Scotland would have a larger representation in the EU and control all aspects of fishing negotiations I don’t foresee any sacrificing going on, that is what UK Westminster does.

steviescosmic

I’m not at all convinced, and never have been, that the UK will exit the EU in anything like the way people thought. For starters, there is no one willing to pull the trigger on Article 50, not Cameron, not Gove nor BoJo. It’s almost as if they were as shocked as we were at the result. Junker says it must be invoked by next week at the latest.

I don’t know what game they are playing, but when Greece effectively tried to blackmail the EU last year, the EU took the Euro economy to the brink of collapse without blinking once: you can’t blackmail these guys, they’ve proved that. Perhaps the markets will force a move from either side by the end of next week.

It’s almost like Gove and Bojo believe they can renegotiate from a quasi in out position, that their position is somehow strengthened from being in limbo. If that is their play, then Junker and his buddies have seen right through it.

It will be very interesting indeed to hear what the results of the ScotGov’s representations to the EU next week. That may well determine whether there’ll be an indyref2 at all.

schrodingers cat

Martin Richmond

You forgot… a violent criminal

twating some creepy tory mp…. you mean war hero?

msean

Great piece.

Scot Finlayson

For there to be an early GE,

two thirds of MP`s must vote a No Confidence in Lizzies Gov motion,

I think that is the only way to hold an early GE,

`Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011`

link to tinyurl.com

TonyD

For me this isn’t about whether we’re in EU or not, it’s about our current voices being silenced, GE 2015 brought us a Tory govt we overwhelmingly rejected and now or EU vote to remain counts for nada! Can’t wait for INDYREF2, as only need a 6% swing!

Ananurhing

Nicola pitched that perfect this morning. What a stateswoman. The people of the rUK must look on and wonder why they have no one of her calibre providing leadership right now.

I’m not hanging waiting for a date for indyref2. It’s going to happen sooner than any of us thought. I’m happy with that for now.

I’m relishing seeing the Scottish govt having direct talks with the EU and acquiting themselves well at proper grown up politics rather than having to stomach the usual puerile racist pish of westminster.

It’s hard to imagine the EU not acting to protect our citizenship in these circumstances. They can’t be seen to abandon us, or ignore our democratically expressed will.

The games a bogey for the union now anyway, but as soon as the EU start to engage with Scotland as a separate entity for whatever reason, it’s game over.

call me dave

The ripples on the pond widen.

Tata Steel Bidders Get Cold Feet Over Brexit

link to archive.is

Footie:

link to bbc.co.uk

OR the stv equivalent

OR link to myp2p.ec

Glamaig

That petition doing the rounds for a re-run of the EU referendum with 75% turnout and 60% Leave hurdles is just mental. England would explode with violence if they tried that.

Martin Richmond

@Schrödinger’s cat

You should do a little more research. Not everyone with an army career is a war hero… I could have added drunk driver too.

Vronsky

Read two sentences before realising that it wasn’t Rev Stu talking.

So scroll back to the top – who wrote this? Oh…gotcha….ok.

Scot Finlayson

Very quiet from Osborne and The Ruthfuhrer,

are they locked away practising their speeches for leader of Toryworld,

legs spread out, roaring at the compliant media audience,

`friends,Yoons,englishmen,I come not to bury Cammo`

Famous15

O/T Just completed a YouGov poll.

How did I vote in the ERef,what party do i support,would i like a second indy ref ,would i like a scotland indy ref and how would i vote,would i like a General Election and how would I vote,whih politicians like/dislike,how left right or centre are the political parties.do i support nuclear weapons ,is the UK govt doing good job ,is Scottish govt dong good job,was Cameron right to resign ,am I Scottish,Brit or European etc etc.

They use the word “country” on occasion without saying They mean Scotland or UK

A Welcome Home

A point to remember for those who are apprehensive about a westminster No campaign based on immigration fears.

The Brexiters (tories and kippers) are already backtracking furiously on the levels of immigration and the specifics of free movement.

So they can scarcely afford to stoke more fears about that as they are preparing to disappoint the more hardline elements who supported OUT.

Nor will the westminster media be too keen to let that cat out of the bag yet again lest they give even more power to Farage, the kippers and those deploying anti-immigration rhetoric.

The hardline elements from OUT will pounce on any and all anti-immigration propaganda used for our IndyRef2 to advance their cause back in westminster.

So unless the tories and the westminster establishment want immigration to truly dominate the discourse for the next ten years or so they will hardly use it as a central plank against Scottish Independence.

It would also make Ruth Davidson’s position untenable since she campaigned right along side Cameron for IN and against the Brexiters anti-immigrant rhetoric.

jdman

Wee folding bike says
“Kezia has already moved with the speed of a coiled panther to rule out Labour support for Indy Ref 2.”

Kezia has already moved with the speed of a coiled slinky to continue her downward travel!
fixed that for you

Walter Scott
FAT BOAB
love it! 🙂

Merkin Scot

Many Indy supporters voted leave for tactical reasons and do not actually support the EU super state.

Marcia

This Brexit farce reminds me of film,’The Producers’ who put on a play hoping it would be flop.

It seems the Leave side did not really expect to win so did no preparation for it. The Scottish Government were over prepared in 2013 compared to them.

Dal Riata

@Croompenstein

Thanks for that! But… keep getting something along the lines of “You are outside the geographical area to receive this transmission”. Tried setting a VPN to different countries but the same message keeps coming up. Bugger! Ah, well, thanks all the same Croompenstein.

Anyone else got anything?

The Man in the Jar

Lots of comments today. I have not had the time to read them all so apologies if this has been said already.

While we are getting excited at the prospect of indiref2 we should spare a thought for supporters of Plaid Cymru. Poor souls stuck with a large proportion of English folk living in Wales and many fellow countrymen still believing in the Labour party’s pish.Their outlook must be looking very grim indeed.

Perhaps they could all move to Anglesea and form a Free Welsh Government under the protection of Scotland.

It is one thing making a joke of it but my heart goes out to those living in a nightmare of someone else’s creation.

Robert J. Sutherland

I had a lovely call today from a good neighbour who knows the circumstances chez Sutherland, and who has been an ardent Labour supporter all her adult life, saying that she now regrets voting “no” at the last indyref and won’t do so ever again. It was the cheeriest thing I have heard over the last few weeks.

I said to her what I would like to say to anyone else in the same position who happens to read this. I am truly sorry that the UK you supported has turned out to be a much lesser thing than the one you believed in, but it’s encouraging to realise that we’re all heading in the same direction, the only difference being the speed by which each of us has come to that inevitable understanding.

And Wingers, please be supportive of newcomers to the cause. Some may be bandwagon-jumpers, but the vast majority will not, and the newcomers will not necessarily be any less ardent or genuine than anyone who has preceded them.

I wouldn’t even mind if any of the Unionist parties in Scotland had an epiphany for indy and had a positive contribution to make. It would be a very smart move for SLab in particular to do that as Eric Joyce suggests, since otherwise they are going to bleed away all the good people like my neighbour and only be left with useless reactionary dregs. But somehow I fear they have neither the courage nor integrity to do it. (though I would be happy to be proved wrong!)

I’m coming to the conclusion that the EUref could be for Scotland what the execution of the Easter Rising rebels was for Ireland, the one singular badly-misjudged event that changed everything, and changed it irrevocably.

Now’s the day and now’s the hour.

FergusMac

I used to live in Sweden, and my wife is Swedish. I thought I’d have a look at what the papers are saying. This is from today’s Svenska Dagbladet, one of Sweden’s two national dailies:

link to svd.se

Here is my translation:

The Disintegration of Great Britain has Begun

“Whoops a daisy” – the Brits are looking for the “regret button”. By Saturday, over a million people had signed a petition for a new referendum to be held on the EU. The major parties are fighting for their political futures. And in both Scotland and Northern Ireland, support for independence is growing. Scotland wants immediate talks with the EU to remain in the Union. The disintegration of Great Britain has begun.

Sandy

A few points.

1. I doubt there will be a General Election as Eric suggests. The Tories will settle this with an internal leadership election rather than risk their slim majority. We’re stuck with them for four years, I think.

2. An independent Scotland will need a left-wing party, naturally. However, if any of it (other than, perhaps, the name) is grounded in the current SLab setup it will be stillborn.

3. The ‘coup’ scenario, where parties win a GE on a manifesto is intriguing (although see point 1, I doubt there’ll be one). However, it sounds like many of those that voted Leave did so because they felt alienated and disenfranchised. It would be opening Pandora’s Box to go and prove to them they were right.

That said, I can see there being a lot of manoeuvring and wriggling to avoid the Brexit, cue a second referendum to get the ‘right’ result.

Glamaig

At first I was thinking it might be a year or two before Indyref2, but maybe ASAP would be better, before the UK economy implodes and takes us with it. We need to catch the momentum, and get out fast.

We need a firm undertaking from the EU first so we know exactly what we’re getting. Then we’ll see businesses relocating to Scotland before the vote giving us another boost. I think we’ll see some academia moving north too.

Then, it’s staying in the UK that would be a leap in the dark…

heedtracker

Marcia says:
25 June, 2016 at 4:22 pm
This Brexit farce reminds me of film,’The Producers’ who put on a play hoping it would be flop.

You’re so cruel Marcia, with such a brilliant analogy. And who was also in the remake? Whatever happened to, John Vote NO you clowns Barrowman.

david anderson

Living in France, moved back for the referendum and then back here again dissapointed. Just wanted to say, I was cutting the grass today and I could literally smell Independence for Scotland in the air and boy did it smell sweet. Will be back again for the next one and boy will I party. People here are either bemused or couldn’t care less about the vote to leave 9not that the media would have you thinking that). My smile is lighting up a little corner of Brittany today!

G

From August 2014:
link to endurasport.com

link to heraldscotland.com

Despite the reason given being Scotland’s potential exclusion from the EU, no statements were issued before the EU referendum, and none have been issued since the result. The silence is deafening.

This is one company I will never buy from again.

JLT

There is no doubting the joy amongst the vast majority of nationalists on hearing that a 2nd Referendum will take place …at some point. But it’s getting to that eventual point!

Make no bones about it, the whole process of getting there is going to be the equivalent of navigating a huge minefield in misty conditions.

When to hold it?; What about Yessers who don’t like the EU?; what about a general public sick to death of elections and referendums? What currency will we use?; How will trade work between an EU-Scotland and an anti-EU England? …it’s a complete basketcase. We didn’t ask for it, but we are being asked to solve it.

As said, I’ve had friends and family howl in despair at me over the last 36 hours about the possibility of another Scottish Referendum. ‘We just want a break from it all’, they wail.

Well, they are all kidding themselves to begin if they believe they are getting a period of reflective solitude. Life for them in the UK is never going to be the same again. They are going to be dragged along whether they like it or not, as the UK tries to work out where it is going. These islands are tearing forward into the dark looking for something but not sure of what it seeks. For Westminster, it will try to work out in bafflement of what it hazily thinks it wants, while at the same time, tries to keep one eye on all the home nations; one eye on a very angry, confused English electorate, and one eye on a very, very pissed off Europe. That’s three major issues that Westminster will have to focus on while doing it with only a set of two eyes. Simply put …something is going to give. What will it be? …well that’s for the Gods to decide, and right now, the Gods are playing the game that it loves best in wishing to destroy those in which they first make mad …and at this point, half of the UK seems to have gone mad. Irrational thinking mixed with paranoia and distrust with a dash of borderline xenophobia. A wonderful potent mix.

But we in Scotland not only have to contend with what our English sister is doing, but we will also have our own problems on top.

While watching in bemusement at what England is trying to achieve, we also have the problem of trying to work out what our own electorate is thinking and what the EU actually makes of Scotland. If the EU won’t have us …then where does that leave Scotland within the greater UK context? Do we sit outside 2 unions?

This is Machiavellian thinking on steroids. Politics within politics within politics …or as how Churchill once described Soviet Russia; it is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma. Nothing like the discord and sheer uncertainty has gripped these islands since the War of the Three Kingdoms when England, Scotland and Ireland all vied with each other over very different politics, and over a set of very different religions. The outcome led to Cromwell and the hated Republic of the Commonwealth. Pray our outcome is not a Union of neo-fascist-toryism.

This is the minefield that we face. How to pacify a ‘lost’ England, pay homage to a ‘fragmented’ EU, and somehow …get all our fellow countrymen to agree to a common goal of where our future lies. This is why we have the difficulty of naming a Referendum date, and what it should be argued on.

It is going to be trickier than you think…

Effijy

In order to support the large number of Bankers Brass Plaques being relocated from London to Edinburgh.

Fat Boab Davidson and Dipity Dug are to have their Brass necks melted down to meet demand.

Which Scottish Cities can support the relocated Nissan Plant,
Toyota, Jaguar, Aston Martin, etc?

We might need to adopt the entire population of Poland to keep up.

Brian Doonthetoon

Hi Dal Riata.

link to neolive.net

Proud Cybernat

Oh and workers of Govan shipyards–the UK might not be buying your ships now (as they cynically promised you pre-IndyRef#1) but the Scots Government WILL be buying for the new Scottish Navy in the new indy Scotland. Don’t be fooled by WM again.

schrodingers cat

lighten up Martin Richmond

being ex army myself, i didnt call eric a war hero for his military service but because he lamped a tory mp

heedtracker

The audience be like Scotland watching England

link to youtube.com

Thomas Valentine

I wait to hear what James “Volare” Kelly has to say about this first Eric.
As to Labour (scotland district branch) I was very surprised to hear anything from Dugdale. Why not just say nothing? Why so keen to demonstrate her grovelling dog loyalty so soon? I can see the panic in Ruth Davidson facing a UKIP Tory boss in London. Her coat hook must have been loosened quite a bit.
But I don’t see Labour in Scotland doing anything smart. They’ve carefully been selected as the loyal incompetents.

Robert J. Sutherland

Effijy @ 16:36 said:

We might need to adopt the entire population of Poland to keep up.

Nae chance, mate. They’ll all be needed working for the civil service in London revising the literally hundreds of UK laws that will now be required.

Apparently it will require a whole new government department with its own minister of state.

Which will cost more than the (totally-fictional) savings the UK is supposed to be going to have.

heedtracker

FT says Leave vote was strongest in areas most dependent economically on the EU.

Effijy

A bit of time to fully establish Scotland’s options would be good. I’m certain that if we give the Right Wing Tories enough rope, they will hang themselves.

Gove made plenty of promises to Scotland, should the UK
vote for Brexit. Yet again nothing delivered and no sign of it happening.

Let Scotland recognise that Tories thrive on lying to Scotland.

Where is our Vow to deliver Home Rule, where is the £3 Billion renewable funds we were promised, the security of the 3,000 HMRC jobs that were promised, where are the 13 ships promised for the Clyde, can you see the £1 Billion Carbon Capture promised for Peterhead?

Lie, Lies, Lies, Lies, Lies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Indy 2 momentum will grow every day as they renege on everything Brexit promised.

Every day you will see companies puting a halt on English investment, and relocating jobs out of England.

I predict that there will be a massive campaign in England to back peddle, when they see the mess that they have created.

Derick fae Yell

Lots of new names on here today

Mmhmm

Ruby

Dal Riata says:
25 June, 2016 at 4:23 pm

@Croompenstein

Thanks for that! But… keep getting something along the lines of “You are outside the geographical area to receive this transmission”. Tried setting a VPN to different countries but the same message keeps coming up. Bugger! Ah, well, thanks all the same Croompenstein.

Anyone else got anything?

Ruby replies

Did you set you VPN to UK?

I did a bit of experimenting and set VPN to Spain and got the ‘outside geographical area’ but when I connected to UK it worked fine. I am in the UK so I probably didn’t need to use the VPN but I did it just as an experiment.

My suggestion is make sure your VPN is connected to UK server.

Vestas

I was musing on this on a previous articles comments thread but the more I think about it, the more I think we’re headed to UDI with a confirmatory referendum.

The language Nicola Sturgeon used suggests to me that there’s already been positive contact between her and leader(s) in the EU in the last 48 hours. I doubt she’d have been quite so explicit about bypassing Westminster completely had there not.

I’m wondering whether the message is that if she’s ready to have a UDI/indyref as soon as A50 is triggered then “good things” would happen in terms of EU membership. It would be impossible for the EU to remove citizenship from Scots given the EU ref vote if UDI/indyref happens, so get it started priot to A50 trigger & you’re in.

Whatever the plan is, it needs to happen fast, before the average voter sinks back into apathy. After all its extremely unlikely that anything noticeable to the general public is going to change this year. By that time the tabloids will be full of “Old Firm” shit to distract the average punter 🙁

Again I should point out that I think Scotland would do better in EFTA/EEA but I recognise that viewpoint isn’t going to get independence anytime soon. Independence within the EU is a starting point which we’d be mad to refuse – REGARDLESS of our views on the EU.

Proud Cybernat

O/T

Herald IndyRef poll (at time of posting):

Leave UK 81%
Stay in UK: 17%
D/K: 3%

Link: link to heraldscotland.com

Richardinho

Kezia Dugdale’s reaction to Brexit is priceless: she says that Scotland “must have a voice in the Brexit negotiations”.

You heard right: That’s what we got out of the first indy referendum!

maureen

Met my first convert today. He was delivering a bed for me and we got chatting. He said he voted no in the Indyref but as a result of the eu ref, he will definitely be voting yes if we were to have another Indyref
One down, how many more to go, lol!

Martin Richmond

@schrodingers cat. ?

He also assaulted two teenage boys in a shop whilst tanked up. (Plus the expenses and the drink driving). I guess we all pick our own heroes, but he doesn’t make my list.

Ruby

‘When calculating those who’s support independence in indyref2 remember 62% in didn’t include eu citizens or 16/17 year olds’

I read the above on Twitter and thought it was interesting.

Re Kezia: I think she just follows whatever Ruth does!

Robert J. Sutherland

Vestas,

We have to keep in mind that the EU isn’t immutable either, despite its oft-assumed rigidity. It has received a serious shock of its own, and if it’s to survive, it will surely have to recognise that it has lost much credibility with ordinary people everywhere, who see it as distant and far too much in cahoots with corporate big business. That is going to have to be addressed somehow.

One thing is for sure, TTIP is now dead. (And not just because the UK won’t be in there pushing for it.)

Breeks

Here’s a “what if” for you…

What if the EU Leaders took a strategic decision NOT to talk to Nicola, since Scotland is not a sovereign state, thus obliging the First Minister to declare a UDI to be subsequently ratified by referendum as Craig Murray has described.
A UDI takes all of the risk out a second YES / No referendum, and could happen very quickly, but a UDI “forced” onto Scotland by “hardball” EU is not the same as a UDI rashly announced without due cause by the SNP acting alone. Not so much a UDI unilateral Declaration of Independence, but an EDI; an Expedient Declaration of Independence.

The doubters and No voters will have their chance to challenge the state of affairs democratically, that is if they can all get to the polling station in Benbecula before the polls close, but after Scotland has confirmed membership status in Europe, and having secured those critical sovereign powers of choice.

Macart

Thought provoking post Mr Joyce and I’d agree with much of it. How and ever on timing? Not so much.

No rushing blindly on the back of a single poll IMO. It may well be that after all considerations the end result will be an indyref. I also suspect that the timing of the July independence drive was NOT a coincidence. Thursday’s vote was always going to determine the tenor of the new campaign.

Equally I don’t think its a coincidence that all 27 member states are being invited to have a wee chinwag over the coming days. I suspect a lot more than obscure legal options will be under discussion. It wouldn’t surprise me to find the FM laying the groundwork for EU based indyref support and testing the waters on a status of continuation.

What matters most though, is that through some quirk of fate, I believe the right government is in the right place at the right time of constitutional crisis. This is the one party who eat, sleep and breathe independence and constitutional options. They have the experience, the knowledge base and the motivation.

So far their actions in the aftermath of Thursday’s vote have shown calm, measured and stable leadership. A government in control of its brief. This will almost certainly be an all too rare second chance. Let’s make sure we make the most of it.

Ruby

‘That opposition could even be the Scottish Labour Party one day’

This political party that calls itself the ‘Scottish Labour Party’ is just a branch of the British Labour Party. There is no way a British party would get elected in an iScotland.
Perhaps there will be a new party that calls it’s Scottish Labour Party although in an iScotland it could probably drop the Scottish label that would be unneccesary. I would suggest that any new party might want to use a different name why burden yourself with a toxic label?

Vestas

@ Robert J Sutherland

I would hope so but I’m not holding my breath on the EU reforming itself.

What has been done to the youth of Spain & Greece to pay off bankers debts is unforgivable. Likewise the removal of elected govts in Italy & Greece is totally unacceptable.

However its a case of any port in a storm now – never mind economics, I can see NI going up in flames again & its just time to be gone from the “UK”. If that requires conforming to the same EU laws/regs we already do then its a complete no-brainer 🙂

Independence, a reasonably stable currency (Euro will do, we don’t want our own as it’d be a “petro-currency”) and a few years to work out what the hell we’re doing – then we can have schisms about Europe 😀

heedtracker

Robert J. Sutherland says:
25 June, 2016 at 5:09 pm
Vestas,

We have to keep in mind that the EU isn’t immutable either, despite its oft-assumed rigidity. It has received a serious shock of its own, and if it’s to survive, it will surely have to recognise that it has lost much credibility with ordinary people everywhere, who see it as distant and far too much in cahoots with corporate big business. That is going to have to be addressed somehow.

And you base this opinion on what exactly? England’s left at the behest of right wing chancers, and the usual far right media reprobates like the Heil.

So that’s one thing.

BoJo and co have had big cheers from other far right whack jobs in France and Holland but that hardly gives credence to your “it will surely have to recognise that it has lost much credibility with ordinary people everywhere” statement.

The Danes maybe, they seem to want an EU ref now.

Croompenstein

Remember this..

link to twitter.com

I’ll just leave this here..

link to twitter.com

galamcennalath

link to businessforscotland.co.uk

“The Scottish independence movement … has an internationalist, green, social, forward-looking agenda …. Scottish nationalism is not about believing our country and its people are better than anyone else’s but just the wish to allow ourselves to believe we are at least equal to anyone else.

British nationalism, the key motivation of the Brexit and Better Together campaigns, is an inward looking, isolationist, superiority driven, aggrieved and small minded retrograde step backwards from the historic journey of humanity towards a world with shared prosperity and values.”

… yes, in a nutshell. British (Greater English) nationalism has now been laid bare.

No voters must ask themselves, ‘which vision do I want to be part of?’

cearc

vestas,

Of course the EU would have one less right wing, obstructive, member government and one more co-operative social democrat government.
which in itself makes a difference.

Ruby

I’ve always found Eric Joyce’s articles to be an interesting read. I have visited his website in the past and enjoyed reading his articles.

Kezia on the other hand I do not find interesting and I can’t even be bothered reading anything she has to say.

Robert J. Sutherland

heedtracker,
I think you misunderstand my point. I’m not saying that various EU countries will now want their own exitref under pressure from their own far-right crazies, as you seem to be thinking, but rather that the Commission and Parliament will have to shift their emphasis and address the concerns of the individual (reasonable) citizen rather more and corporate business rather less. Simply as a natural democratic response to the new political reality. (Hence eg. my comment about TTIP.)

schrodingers cat

stuc inching towards yes

Vestas

@ cearc

We’d certainly be less obstructive than England has been but we’d probably be a monumental PITA at (for example) fisheries meetings 🙂 I smile at that but I shouldn’t as it’d be an issue for Spain who could veto any agreement re Scottish EU entry.

At least the Leave vote has forced the issue. I was thinking that we’d still be sitting here in 2021/22 waiting for indyref2, by which time many of the 2014 “veterans” would have moved on – in physical terms as well as mental.

If we wait then I doubt we’ll have another chance to hold an indyref, never mind win it.

Interesting times….

call me dave

Pete Wishart: Says “Interesting”

link to twitter.com

heedtracker

Despite doing their level best to end Scottish democracy

Severin Carrell ?@severincarrell 1h1 hour ago
#Brexit vote brings fresh surge of support for Scottish independence @YesBarGlasgow – @libby_brooks reports

Sterling now at its lowest level since 1985. Expect a lot of US holiday makers.

Petra

“Though the mills of God grind slowly, yet they grind exceeding small; Though with patience He stands waiting, with exactness grinds He all.”

Scotexit at 81% now.

link to youtube.com

Time to start handing out the incontinence pads …. The Queen, Scottish land owners, Cameron, Osborne, Mundell, Davidson, Tomkins, Brown, Darling, The Burd, Scottish Labour party, Lib-dems, Scottish Tories etc etc etc.

Marco McGinty

For all of those supposed Yessers that were supportive of the Leave campaign, and wouldn’t vote for an independent Scotland within the EU, would it not be better to wait until the Scottish Government proved its worth in negotiations?

You have to realise that all previous EU negotiations were done by Westminster, with no consideration whatsoever for its Scotland region, so I’m quite sure the SG would try considerably harder to get the best deals possible for its people.

If, after a period of time, the people of Scotland don’t believe the EU is working for them, there would be a chance of a Scottish In/Out referendum.

The whole point of independence is that we will have the power to choose things for ourselves, not have opposing views imposed on us by a neighbouring country.

Hamish100

Coleen,

Leave are a minority in Scotland. Why vote for it?

For independence the big goal for me is no nuclear weapons in this country. Scotland has to vote YES before we are dragged off with RUK as we are still in the EU. Let’s hope fishing rights can have a priority in the new Scotland. U.K. Did nothing but sell the rights. Surprised you put your trust in the same shysters.

Do you really believe Johnston gives a shit about west coast fisher folk? You will be run from London.

Marco McGinty

Forgot to mention that regarding IndyRef2, we should stay as far away from 2018 as possible. It was bad enough that the unionists and their media chose to celebrate the start of a war that ended the lives of millions of people, so who knows what they will come up for the end of the war.

May or June 2017 would do me fine.

galamcennalath

I’m finding it difficult to imagine what Better Together 2 / No Thanks 2, or whatever they call themselves, are going to do and say on behalf of their Union?

Literally, nothing. What is there to say about the merits of the Union? And, for that matter, what scaremongering about Indy can they push when it’s all already happened in the Union.

And, they can’t exactly push the No Borders line this time!

heedtracker

BBC r4 teatime news straight with Project Fear 2, pretty thuggish and Déjà vu all at once. BBC Rule Britannia types not exactly enjoying being told to stick their independence but at our terms and pace up their arses, by EU minsters.

Cadogan Enright

Anyone have contact details for the SNP in Mundells constituency?

Time to start making plans

Old dearie

O/T Watching Scotland v Japan rugby. Well done to the fan who held up an Indyref 2 placard. Genius! Bet we don’t see that on highlight programme.

Cadogan Enright

@Dave 2.35

iar Presendent Mary MacAleese suggested yesterday that England and Wales could leave EU and NI and ScotLand not – while still part of EU

handclapping

Ruby @ 5:21
Compromise on the Independent Labour Party?

yesindyref2

Hehe. Well it looks like Willie Rennie and the LibDems are moving towards a pro-Indy stance, and in any case it is surely certain they’d not oppose Indy Ref 2, which would give the SNP a majority 63 to 60, even if for some odd reason the Green Party opposed it, which I very much doubt.

Yes, it is clear Scottish Labour should support a YES vote, I’m a bit surprised Dugdale sounded negative about Indy Ref 2, I think she should have held her counsel and watched the coffee grounds. Which are very smelly so I’m told (I drink tea).

SOG

There have been a few mentions above of Spain’s attitude in the EU. Tomorrow, Sunday, there is an election in Spain. Since the Catalans hold common cause with the Scots over their desire for independence, with poverty and high unemployment especially among the young, the result may be a further challenge for the EU.

I would guess that the Catalans don’t have much in common with Spain’s North Sea fishermen, for a start.

desimond

Headtracker

Just made me think of something there, how would the EU fishing fleets get into Scottish Waters if they have to go through English waters first?

#Armada2018

Liz Rannoch

I’m really getting rather worried. Where’s Mr G Osborne? Even the EBC has put out a ‘have you seen this man?’ I thought he wouldn’t be able to wait to put out his ’emergency budget’. Did he have one? Is he making one up as I type? Has he lost his abacus?

I’m still waiting for an ‘evel’ moment, something on Barnett or a ‘new’ constitution. We may think they’re reeling at the moment, but remember an injured animal is the most dangerous. We have to be ready for anything.

heedtracker

Far right Britnats of the scotland region blame poor old Corbyn, shock. Its not JC’s fault. He’s wanted out for decades.

euan mccolm ?@euanmccolm 5h5 hours ago
euan mccolm Retweeted Jeremy Corbyn MP
there you go. there’s your statesman, labour chums.euan mccolm added,

Jeremy Corbyn MP @jeremycorbyn
In my speech on the historic choice made on Thursday I made clear that Labour will bring our country together to meet the challenges we face
5 retweets 10 likes
Reply Retweet 5
Like 10
More

Ravenholme

I’m afraid to say at least some of the 45% may vote the other way.

A depressing number of my extended family, previously Yes voters (proudly displaying 45 badges on facebook etc) are aghast that Nicola Sturgeon is wanting a referendum on quitting the UK to go back to the EU.

Luckily, I suspect the numbers of that particular branch of idiots are so minor as to be outweighed by previous No voters who would rather be members of the EU than a sinking union, but it is unfortunately untrue to say that every individual in the former 45% will vote Yes a second time.

cearc

Liz Rannoch,

I doubt that GO’s whereabouts are considered teatime listening, maybe after the watershed!

Is there a government in London anymore?

Tinto Chiel

“This Brexit farce reminds me of film,’The Producers’ who put on a play hoping it would be flop.”

An acute perception, Marcia. Doesn’t Bojo look crestfallen? Be careful what you wish for, indeed. Who would be the new Tory PM on the Wreck of The Hesperus?

The FM’s words today, suppressed by BBC, regarding summoning EU consuls for talks shows she has already done the spade work. I would love to hear her conversations with Merkel. Her strategy will be to exclude WM and act like a government in waiting.

I don’t see why Scotland would have to adopt the Euro. We are in the EU, we will become the successor state once England sails off to very rough seas, and I don’t think the EU will play hard ball on currency. There will be a strong EU feeling to make England pay, and its corollary is being open to Scotland.

What we need to do is have clear policy on currency. Will it be the pound and a negotiated share of the ND, or a new £Scots and a completely new currency, issued by our national central bank?

And Eric, your words are welcome but you don’t speak for BLiS, as underlined by Kezia’s feeble words today.

Mick DIAMOND

I think the eu should now be clarifying their position on where they stand with scotland..

Iain More

Well now that we have the bastards on the deck lets stick the boot intae them. Dinnae let them get back up!

call me dave

Some details on earlier news as the footie is a yawn and George Osborne’s hung up the phone:

1.
Ex-Labour First Minister “very, very attracted” to independence following Brexit “game changer”

link to archive.is

I read the ‘left behind’ copy of ‘Scotland’s Chumpion’ in the cafe early this morning and choked a bit on my empire biscuit when I caught this sentence.

“Saturday’s edition of the Record, which largely held a pro-Union stance during the 2014 campaign over Scotland’s future,….”

Anyhoo!

Daily Record backs second independence referendum after Brexit vote

link to archive.is

cearc

desimond,

International shipping lane through the channel. Hence it being perfectly OK for the Russians to sail their entire navy through, despite what the Brit-Press may say.

It is probably worth pointing out to fisherman that a Scottish Fishing Minister, who is accessible to them and knows something about the industry would probably do a much better job than a Sir Willy Flossy-Bot (sound chap, went to school with Freddie) has ever done.

The other EU ministers would probably consider it a great relief not to have to waste time explaining that fish do not actually have fingers to the representative of the EU’s largest fishing grounds.

Gordon

I was a CITIZEN of the European Union. People in another country will strip me of this proud title and leave me a SUBJECT of an outdated fairy tale monarchy ¬– a family living in that foreign land living on the state in unmerited privilege – unless the government of my country acts swiftly to maintain my European citizenship and makes me a Scottish National.
‘If t’were done,t’were well it were done quickly’. The Scottish Government should hold a referendum as soon as possible to rid ourselves of this mediaeval parliament in Westminster, where yet more of these untalented, superannuated chiels obtain unwarranted power over the population.
Even if the European project eventually founders, we will at least be free of the tyranny that is Westminster and we will be able to elect a government that will act in the best interests of the Scottish People free of vested interests and promises of wealth to come.
?

gus1940

Uncharacteristic silence from Mone and Sillars.

Interesting stuff in The Record today – it’s almost as if they are now supporting Independence – but I still won’t trust them as far as I can throw them.

THey have a vox pop exercise in which nearly all the respondents including several who voted NO on 18/9 say they wil vote YES in REF2.

Valerie

I can hardly rip myself away from the media, things are flying around so fast.

Bulgaria has embraced any resident Brits, saying they can applying for citizenship. Quite a few settled there, due to cheap property.

Osborne still posted missing since Wednesday, and BoJo went off to cricket.

It’s truly a fcking disgrace, but hey, they will have to get on with it. Even the EU bods are meeting and issuing statements.

Have to agree with Petra.

BoJo et all put on a clown show of The Producers, thinking it was all a hoot.

I actually wonder if BoJo might melt away, when the scale of the shit pile dawns. Lots of local Leave groups angry at various promises getting rowed back e.g. immigration.

Juncker
It’s not an amicable divorce, but it was never a deep love affair.

Oooft!

SOG

A new post on wee ginger dug explains the Spanish issue much more thoroughly than I did.

cearc

Mick Diamond,

I’m sure they will but a lot of meetings, discussions and negotiations have to happen first.

Meantime just look at the EU papers. They pretty well all mock England and talk about Scotland remaining.

davidb

We have council elections next May. We will all be doing the legwork over the winter and spring. The ideal date would be on the same day next May. It would help financially. It would allow both campaigns to be fliered and canvassed at the same time. And it may allay the election fatigue the voters must be getting.

We have had 4 votes in 21 months.Even I’m getting tired of fighting elections.

Dal Riata

@Brian Doonthetoon

Cheers my man, that one’s a goer! Just finished watching Wales vs N. Ireland. Pish game, but at least I got to watch it live!

@Ruby

Your suggestion to set the VPN to a UK server is a good one, and probably correct. I’ll give that a go tomorrow with the site Croompenstein gave me. I’d really like to watch the next game up today, but that’s a 3:00 am kick-off here so it’ll have to be highlights on YouTube tomorrow instead!

stewartb

So we Yessers have not been respecting the democratic result of the 2014 Indyref according to Unionists.

A majority in the UK having voted only a couple of days ago to leave the EU (not with my support by the way), the result of this democratic result is being challenged. Even though the PM stated voting leave was for ever, we have for example Labour MP David Lammy calling for a Parliamentary vote on the EU referendum result. He is quoted in the press saying: ‘Wake up. We do not have to do this.” “We can stop this madness through a vote in Parliament.” And ‘Our sovereign Parliament needs to now vote on whether we should exit the EU.” “The referendum was an advisory, non-binding referendum.” Who needs democracy in this UK, the bestest of the best democratic nation states in the world?

At least, the SNP waited a wee while and for a ‘material change’ before moving on Indyref2!

asklair

What happens if there is a u turn about UK leaving the EU.

Glamaig

just a thought – the EU may see supporting Scotland as a way of discouraging other EU states from holding referendums. Who would be stupid enough to hold a referendum that might lead to the break-up of their country? Apart from the obvious of course…

Breeks

I dunno. You wait 300 years for a referendum, then three come along all at once. Sigh.

Things are moving so fast I feel like changing the “Are you YES yet?” to “Are we independent yet?”… And I’m only half joking.

Croompenstein

What happens if there is a u turn about UK leaving the EU

Go and have a wee lie doon..

Jim McIntosh

BBC still at it.

Just heard Sarah Smith saying Independence will now be more complicated because ” Brexit raises all sort of new questions about currency and border controls”. She even said it with a straight face.

deja-vu anyone?

heedtracker

desimond says:
25 June, 2016 at 6:44 pm
Headtracker

If they do give control of fishing back to fishermen, they’ll empty the seas completely. Iceland had to go to war to stop destroying Icelandic fish stocks. Actually the UK gov just compensated the UK fishing fleet that were blocked in the Cod Wars not that long ago.

Croompenstein

@Jim –

She even said it with a straight face

She doesn’t have a straight face Jim she’s bent as a nine bob note. I also heard her refer to the FM as ‘Sturgeon’ the cheeky cow..

DerekM

Nice of you to drop in Eric though i think you might find that there will be no olive branch held out to Labour from us ,not with the shower of liars running it,unless there is a complete change off personel Labour in Scotland are finished.

And could people stop replying to yes buts they are kippers.
No indy yesser unless really fucking stupid would consider staying in the UK over the EU.

mike cassidy

Can I just throw again into the mix the implications for Scotland if a general election is called before the end of the year.

Setting aside its no doubt hefty contribution to voter fatigue –

Could the SNP use it as a potential mandate for what they are saying now?

Are 56 seats a realistic target again?

All the seats!

yesindyref2

@Desimond
1. In straits referred to in article 37, all ships and aircraft enjoy the right of transit passage, which shall not be impeded; except that, if the strait is formed by an island of a State bordering the strait and its mainland, transit passage shall not apply if there exists seaward of the island a route through the high seas or through an exclusive economic zone of similar convenience with respect to navigational and hydrographical characteristics.

2. Transit passage means the exercise in accordance with this Part of the freedom of navigation and overflight solely for the purpose of continuous and expeditious transit of the strait between one part of the high seas or an exclusive economic zone and another part of the high seas or an exclusive economic zone. However, the requirement of continuous and expeditious transit does not preclude passage through the strait for the purpose of entering, leaving or returning from a State bordering the strait, subject to the conditions of entry to that State.

3. Any activity which is not an exercise of the right of transit passage through a strait remains subject to the other applicable provisions of this Convention.
—————————————

link to un.org

scott riach

i like the point i read on twitter earlier, can you imagine the amount of big business wanting to locate offices in scotland after #indyref2 so they can use the free market? we would benefit from corporation tax and vat

galamcennalath

Henry McLeish has come out for Indy

link to youtube.com

Legerwood

Better to go as quickly as possible while the Unionists are in disarray.

May 2017. Defer Council Elections for 6 months and go in May.

Strike while the iron is hot.

Glamaig

mike cassidy says:
25 June, 2016 at 7:41 pm
Can I just throw again into the mix the implications for Scotland if a general election is called before the end of the year.

Setting aside its no doubt hefty contribution to voter fatigue –

Could the SNP use it as a potential mandate for what they are saying now?

Are 56 seats a realistic target again?

According to Thatcher 50% of the seats was enough for independence… Westminster didnt want PR, so they can suck it up 🙂

All the seats!

yesindyref2

Oh yeah, it’s a good myth about the RN taking 2 days to see off the Kuznetzov in the international waters of the Moray Firth with a frigate, a good laugh, but the reality is this:

2. Ships in transit passage shall:

(b) comply with generally accepted international regulations, procedures and practices for the prevention, reduction and control of pollution from ships.”

Russian sailors were seen tipping galley gash overboard, Angus Robertson complained, the RN sent a frigate to observe. And then to provide an “escort” around North Britain (couldn’t resist that), until the Russians were safely on their way to the med.

iScotland would also have a duty to police its EEZ for safety and pollution, and marine conservation where applicable – or face losing the EEZ.

Smallaxe

Cadogan Enright,Sir I am a founding member of the SNP in Mundell’s constituency, The person you should talk to is
Henry McClelland,you will find him on the SNP Facebook page
under the Annan branch.

Sorry I can’t do more to help as I don’t do Facebook. Peace.

yesindyref2

@DerekM: “Nice of you to drop in Eric though i think you might find that there will be no olive branch held out to Labour from us

You’re not speaking for me Derek, I’ll be delighted if Labour change their minds and back Independence for Scotland, and will happily support anyone in the Labour party campaigning for a YES vote in Indy Ref 2.

scotspine

Just heard some arrogant prick in London being interviewed by John Boulton referring to Scotland as a REGION of the UK and not being particularly affluent. No wonder, You have sucked us dry CUNT.

Brian McHugh

Comment of the year…
:Breeks says:
25 June, 2016 at 7:30 pm
I dunno. You wait 300 years for a referendum, then three come along all at once.”

ROFL

Craig P

Scotspine, not sure where he got that from but it is wrong. Scotland is the third richest area of the UK after London and the SE.

Cadogan Enright

@smallaxe 7.54

Grand. See you there then in November maybe?

DAvid Winpenny

Next Referendum Question should be
“Do you wish to remain in the EU as an Independent Country”

yesindyref2

@Craig P
Yes, and I did see one claim it was second only to London, on some basis.

Flying Scotsman

Martin Richmond says:

25 June, 2016 at 3:32 pm

“Eric Joyce is the former Labour MP for Falkirk.”

You forgot… In two separate years the Westminster MP who claimed the highest level of expenses and a violent criminal. Context.

I think that’s a bit harsh.
Assaulting a tory mp would see me classify him as ‘bit of a character’.
Eric is no longer a labour man and should be welcomed by such an inclusive movement as ours.
Its time for us all to come together for the sake of everyone in Scotland.

Welcome Eric, I, for one, am glad to have you alongside.

call me dave

Sky: Does A Leave Vote Definitely Mean A Brexit?

link to archive.is

DerekM

Sorry yesindyref2 as old Labour and LFI i would not trust the red tories as far as i could fling them.

And them coming out for indy now is just them trying to save their careers.

I will welcome any ex labour voter to the yes side but certain red tory politicians i draw the line at.

I would like to see us take back Scottish labour but while it is controlled from the HoL that is impossible.

Cal

If I was a Brexit Tory, Labour or DUP mp I would block any move for another General Election because there would be a danger of another EU referendum being held. Also, although for different reasons,if I was a SNP mp I’d also block it. They have 56 out of 59 mps – they would be unlikely to better that. And, since the Fixed Term Parliaments Act 2011 requires that 2/3 of mps would need to back the call for a new ge for it to happen, it aint going to happen. Short of some kind of military coup, I don’t see how it can happen.

Simon Curran

Anyone know who to write to/email within the EU? It seems to me that you can make a good case that contrary to the democratic will of the voters of Scotland that they are being ripped out and denied their rights as EU citizens. And all this because they were lied to in a previous referendum when Unionist politicians said the only way they could still be in the EU was to reject independence. Is there any mileage in asking the EU to protect our rights?

defo

The burning question.

Is Grahamski Yes yet Eric ?

Iain More

GE isn’t going to happen not with the Brit Nat Tory and Labour Parties tearing lumps out of each other. They aren’t going to get the two third of votes needed to have one.

ann

“The other EU ministers would probably consider it a great relief not to have to waste time explaining that fish do not actually have fingers to the representative of the EU’s largest fishing grounds.”

Brilliant

DerekM

And anyway why would we want a shower of liars running about inside the indy movement making shit up as they go along.

How will you feel when Jaba comes on TV and tells a big whopper that we have to then tell the people she just made it all up.

We all know how they operate they cant stop making up bollocks,i want none of that in indyref2 we will have enough on our plate without having to look over our shoulder to make sure the red tories are not trying to drive a political agenda through the indy movement.

Just my opinion

Robert Louis

Folks talking about elections at Westminster, note:

The fixed term parliaments act determines the date of the next general election at Westminster. The exceptions are:

Section 2 of the Act also provides for two ways in which a general election can be held before the end of this five-year period:

If the House of Commons resolves “That this House has no confidence in Her Majesty’s Government”, an early general election is held, unless the House of Commons subsequently resolves “That this House has confidence in Her Majesty’s Government”. This second resolution must be made within fourteen days of the first.

If the House of Commons, with the support of two-thirds of its total membership (including vacant seats), resolves “That there shall be an early parliamentary general election”.

In either of these two cases, the Monarch (on the recommendation of the prime minister) appoints the date of the new election by proclamation. Parliament is then dissolved 25 working days before that date.

Source : link to en.wikipedia.org

In other words, an early election is extremely unlikely, unless the Tories vote with a no confidence motion in their own government.

yesindyref2

It’d be quite amusing if London held a snap referendum on Independence, became independent and stayed in the EU, and MPs for the rUK Parliament had to apply for work permits, and show their passports at the border as they went to debate in the House of Commons. I wonder what their tax status would be?

Still, at least the Bank of England would be in the EU. That would be tricky, it would come under EU banking regulations.

Marconatrix

—————
Eric isn’t in Labour any more.

Neither is Scotland.
—————

Not yet but her time will no be lang … the pregnancy looks healthy. Remembering the wake that followed indy ref I, are we no due a ¨happy event¨ this time around?

Smallaxe

@Cadogan Enright, I would love to be able to meet yourself and all other Wingers but unfortunately I am fighting two different types of cancer one incurable.This site and you and
all the others are my personal chemo,I am certain that the Rev
all others are giving me more time to hopefully see our Country free. Peace to you and yours. Billy.

defo

heedtracker says: at 2:07 pm
“Scotland will provide a safe haven,a sanctuary from the insanity of Brexit,let’s do it.”

“Indyref 2

This looks like classic railroading…”

Yes heeds, but who’s doing the railroading mate ?
Thinking from an EU perspective, England needs to be seen to pay a price for Leave. Examples need to be made.
Rules are being written as we speak, so as that (ex) constituent states of seceding member nations are treated as existing members.
The message won’t be long in coming from Brussels and the big players, and then it really is game over.
Dancer.

Spain? Irrelevant, above accepted and coming to pass.
Spain will play realpolitik, as and when they are told to.

Strangely (not), it seems that the decision/done deal to renew Trident has been pushed back.

call me dave

Fraser Nelson:
Brexit: A Very British Revolution

link to archive.is

TD

Robert Louis at 8:51 p.m.

I don’t understand your concluding sentence. Why can’t the Tories just go for the second type of resolution? If they do that, they just need to table the motion that “there shall be an early parliamentary general election”. Labour (and the SNP) then have to decide to oppose the motion, support it or abstain. If they oppose it or abstain, they are open to the accusation of running scared. So they would probably support it. In Labour’s case, that would be electoral suicide – but what else could they do? I think the motion would be carried with the required 2/3rds majority and the Tories would avoid having to table a motion of no confidence in their own government.

Of course whether the Tories want an election is another matter, but if they decide they do, then I cannot see any obstacle to them having one.

One_Scot

All joking aside, does anyone know what John MacIntyre OB1 Kenobis take on all this is.

Macart

@Smallaxe

You hang in there.

We’re all working on it. 🙂

Albaman

What goes around, comes around !,
In Dunfermline high street today, “time-shift”, a yes independent marquee, only this time it was a “yes 2” one , happy days eh.

Dr Jim

There is another route and you’ll find that out on Tuesday
Also I’m very glad the FM is taking MY advice and not listening to anybody’s advice including mine but smiling nicely and nodding politely and then doing what she’s had planned all along

After Independence there’ll have to be another election
So sure we’ll let the SNP do all the work and let Labour into Holyrood, can I just say whit planet ur you oan sir

cearc

Eric,
.
Perhaps you should be getting together with the likes of McCleish and Chisholm about forming a new labour party of some sort.

Quite frankly the blairite dregs of Slab are not worth bothering about, they have no credibilty.

Glad to see you’re blogging more again.

dakk

@ Colken. 3.15

Regarding Westminster protecting your families fishing livelihoods.Dream on.

Bojo’s or any other UK leader would horse trade Scotland’s fisheries for lower trade tariffs for England/Britain,or any other concession that suited England.

Such is the history of England’s exploitation of Scotland’s resources.

Marco McGinty

@Jim McIntosh
Just heard Sarah Smith saying Independence will now be more complicated because ” Brexit raises all sort of new questions about currency and border controls”.

Aye, the same old regurgitated lies. If there is a need for border controls when Scotland becomes independent, then could any of the unionists and their “impartial” media please explain why the Irish question hasn’t been brought up? The Republic is in the EU, and the north has just been dragged out against the wishes of the majority of its voters, yet the BBC hasn’t suggested the reinstatement of border controls in Ireland.

Funny that!

Valerie

The Remain voters down south are frantic. I always like to keep an eye on what’s happening.

Paul Mason the economist, in frantic mode. Have to say where were they? Hoping SNP will be a crutch.

link to medium.com

Ron

I see people are talking openly about UDI. That really would be opening Pandora’s Box and there is no way the Scottish Government would ever even consider it.

Ruby

link to tinyurl.com

Der englische Patient

Robert mcdonald

What happens if the uk doesn’t sign up for the section 50? Anybody know if EU can force Brexiteers hand?

Smallaxe

@ Macart, Thank you for your kindness it is much appreciated.

Ps. No matter how big the tree it only takes one small axe to bring it down. 🙂

Ruby

defo says:
25 June, 2016 at 8:42 pm

The burning question.

Is Grahamski Yes yet Eric ?

Ruby replies

I can hardly type I’m laughing so much.

K1

Ditto Macart to Smallaxe…we’re going to do it, hang on in there. 😉

Kevin Evans

I watched a documentary a few years back explaining how important the cathedral in glasgow was to Scottish sovereignty as it allowed the bishop of glasgow straight access to the Vatican without needing to go through London.

Isn’t that basically what Nicola has done today by going directly to Brussels?

Socrates MacSporran

Something just struck me – with London voting overwhelmingly for Remain, what might our friend The Rembrancer of the City of London have to say about the current situation.

maxxmacc

I work