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Wings Over Scotland

Getting ourselves together

Posted on June 25, 2016 by

So it’s all over for the United Kingdom.

Scotland (overwhelmingly) and Northern Ireland (less so) have voted to stay in Europe while England (decisively) and Wales (narrowly) have voted to leave. Northern Ireland has its own choices to make, but Scotland must now hold a second referendum.


The Scottish Government said before the referendum that it would only hold a second independence vote when the polls showed a significant lead for the independence camp. It needed to turn 45% into something more like 60%. Next week’s polls will show that and more, as well over the quarter of the 55% will choose the EU over the UK, while none of the 45% will switch the other way.

Alex Salmond has already suggested that the fresh referendum must take place within 30 months. He’s wrong in his uncharacteristic caution, though. It’ll have to happen much sooner than that.

There’s a likelihood that the new Tory leader will call a UK general election, then assuming he (or she) wins a handsome majority – which he or she will – there’ll be another 2 years or so of Brexit negotiations.

It would be literally senseless for Scotland to be part of the UK for those negotiations, only to leave immediately after and alter fundamentally the agreements just made on behalf of the UK. This would require the EU to start all over again, negotiating with England/Wales and Scotland (and Northern Ireland or even a united Ireland) over yet new terms.

Moreover, the new England-and-Wales entity would then require yet another general election because it would be an entirely new political construct. If Labour had won an election with the help of the SNP, the same negotiations and subsequent elections would have to take place.

So providing the polls next week do show over 60% in Scotland for independence, Nicola Sturgeon will have little choice but to press on with an early referendum. The dying UK government will not be in any position, morally or politically, to prevent it. Few Brexiteer Tories will seek to stop the Scots leaving; they’ll be too busy having a ball with their own arrangements.

There will have to be new Scottish elections after independence, of course. We can expect the SNP to continue to dominate an independent Scotland for some years, although Scotland will be a healthy democracy and a real opposition will emerge, since nature abhors a vacuum.

That opposition could even be the Scottish Labour Party one day, if it plays its cards right. For now, there’s only one card for Scottish Labour to play. It must support Scottish independence in Europe. This will be the acid test. If it does not it will die altogether, and will deserve to.

I have a feeling that Scottish house prices are about to go up. And the incomers will be voting FOR independence this time.


Eric Joyce is the former Labour MP for Falkirk. His website is here.

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  1. 25 06 16 14:34

    Getting ourselves together | Referendum 2018 | ...

  2. 25 06 16 14:56

    Getting ourselves together | speymouth

  3. 26 06 16 00:01

    There Has Been A Material Change in Circumstances | A Wilderness of Peace

338 to “Getting ourselves together”

  1. heedtracker says:

    Sorry Eric, Scottish Labour does not get to dictate to Scotland, on anything.

  2. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    Eric isn’t in Labour any more.

  3. Croompenstein says:

    I will place my trust in Nicola and the SNP they have got us to where we are and whatever they decide is in Scotland’s best interest.

  4. wee folding bike says:

    Kezia has already moved with the speed of a coiled panther to rule out Labour support for Indy Ref 2.

  5. Croompenstein says:

    How ironic would it be if it was Kez and Slab who backed the legislation for indyref2 and wee Patrick and the Greens abstained. Forget about Ruth the Mooth and Prof Smirky and the Libs are irrelevant.

  6. Brian McHugh says:

    Great moment just there on the BBC, With Cameron standing looking burst at Armed Forces day between 2 medalled and dolled up soldiers… with Scotland The Brave on the bagpipes flowing over the scene.

    Utterly brilliant. 😀

  7. Itchybiscuit says:

    Just imagine all of those companies getting ready to head across the channel having an alternative location in an indy Scotland?

    As you say, Scotland will have to be quick off the mark to avoid losing out but even if the outcome is indy without any businesses relocating here, I’m Yes all the way (as ever).

  8. Robert Louis says:

    Have to say I completely agree with this analysis. The fact is events are moving incredibly fast, and whilst that does not mean we should act in haste, it also does not mean we have ‘2 years’.

    As Eric points out, for the next couple of months at least, Westminster will be in no position to prevent such a move. Indeed, I suspect just from my own anecdotal experience over the last 24 hours, that the demand for referendum 2 is only going to get louder.

    I concur on his opinions of polling data.

    What people want is stability, and that will partly come from a positive response from the EU member states. We need matters to be addressed with some speed now. I do hope the Scotgov are in touch with the EU already, and if not, they need to move now.

  9. Vambomarbeleye says:

    A independent Scotland in Europe. Those that want to be in the EU can move to Scotland and those who don’t can move to England. Then every one can be happy. Most likely be best for both country’s on a number of different levels.

  10. heedtracker says:

    Eric isn’t in Labour any more.

    Neither is Scotland.

  11. Naebd says:

    “no yes voters will switch to no”.

    Well, INDYREF2 will present the vision of an independent Scotland in the EU, with ??? currency and an EU tariff border with its largest trading area, rUK. Indyref1 tried to sell an indy Scotland in the EU beside rUK, and in a currency union with rUK.

    These are very different visions, so we can’t assume that everyone who bought the indyref1 vision will vote for the one presented to us during indyref2.

  12. Tackety Beets says:

    A little birdy close to Tory HQ has intimated GE Nov 2016

    I feel the amount of Nos actively tweeting their switch to YES & support for a Indy Ref, it may be game over quite quickly.

    Time will not heal this CUT very easily.

  13. Robert Louis says:

    As pointed out above, there may be many companies who would jump at the chance to move their bases to Scotland within the EU, rather than move to the continent. That is a REAL opportunity for the Scot Gov, but matter need settled much earlier in order to capitalise on such a scenario.

    Big corporations will already be making their plans regarding a move for the EU.

  14. carjamtic says:

    The Tory Wrecking Crews have lived up to their billing and the markets are now out of limits.

    Scotland will provide a safe haven,a sanctuary from the insanity of Brexit,let’s do it.

    Indyref 2

  15. Tom Anderson says:

    Fixed term Parliament election can only take place if 2/3 vote for it – not going to happen

  16. Vambomarbeleye says:

    All England will have to trade will be some magic beans. Gordon has all ready traded the family cow for the beans. They will still have the old wifey in the magic hat. So they can sing their songs, wave their flags and in their delusion believe that they matter to the world.

  17. Robert Louis says:

    If I were a Labour strategist in Scotland, I would be grabbing these events with both hands, to undo the damage already done to Labour’s reputation. My advice for Kezia would be, back referendum2 and independence WITHIN the EU to the hilt, then we will have a chance of recovery at the subsequent Scottish elections.

    Of course, I am not a Labour advisor, and common sense does not reside within the Labour Branch office at John Smith house, so it isn’t going to happen.

  18. Steve Bowers says:

    This is a bigger rush than 2014, let’s all welcome with open arms those changing no voters, a good convert is worth many more

  19. galamcennalath says:

    I share Eric’s optimism.

    Scotland voted decisively to stay in the EU. This time, that was a rational decision, not influenced by false promises. In a Scottish context, it was quite different from IndyRef1. It has to stand as settled will.

    Many Yes supporters were Leave. They must accept the EURef outcome and get back into the saddle for Indy.

    Many NO supporters were Remain. Now they have to think long and hard about what they do next. Early indications are some will switch to Yes. Eric believes so, I think he is right.

    To be honest, I think No supporters who voted Leave will be hardcore BritNats. The vast majority will never be persuaded about Indy or the EU. Some will, and we need to take as many along with us as possible.

  20. Juteman says:

    Scotland could end up in an enviable position, as EU companies presently in England move to Scotland.

  21. Truth says:

    You’ve had your troubles Eric, but I have respected your tone during the first indyref and your tone now.

    In all honesty it’s likely I’d never vote labour (certainly in their current set up), but I would like to see you lead a truly Scottish labour party.

    They could do a lot worse. Welcome aboard, bring as many as you can with us.

  22. Kenny says:

    Just a thought: I always predicted, using an historical model, that Scottish indy would come about (1) because of an outside shock (2) in 2017.

    The main thought is staying in the EU. But what EU will there be? France, Holland and even Sweden might be poised to also vote “Leave” in a couple of years’ time. The youth of Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy will tell you that the current EU is unsustainable.

    Our future must be in Europe. But it must be a Europe which is slightly different than the current EU model. Who says there is only one EU model? Where is it written that the current one is the “right” one?

    I predict that there will be an EU Europe and an Alternative Europe. The Alternative Europe might be led by France with the Mediterranean countries on board. Because the French also are at the heart of Europe, but not necessarily THIS Europe of austerity and neoliberal economics.

    We must be sure to be in the right Europe. The way for that is to get clued up and educated, for as many people as possible to get involved in democracy. Every EU citizen is a human being and it is wrong to treat them as economic units — as Remain found out to its cost in rUK on Thursday…

  23. Walter Scott says:

    It just doesn’t look likely that labour in Scotland would put their weight, such as it is, behind a push for a Scotland in Europe. Everything they have said in the past about an independendent Scotland doesn’t sound like there’ll be much support coming from them. Some even said they would prefer continuous tory rule than live in a country where they could make a positive contribution in their country’s future. Things are changing almost hourly & the dust hasn’t settled yet but it would so heartwarming if some in Scottish Labour broke ranks & fought for something worthwhile for a change.
    Beyond our southern border there’s been a coup by an aggressive xenophobes. We must stand together with the exception of Fat Boab Davidson who will be banging the Lambeg drum to let her loyal followers know it’s time to take their country back. So, Willie Rennie, Kezia Dugdale, Daily Record. Your’e country needs you.

  24. Effijy says:

    wee folding bike says:

    25 June, 2016 at 1:43 pm

    Kezia has already moved with the speed of a coiled panther to rule out Labour support for Indy Ref 2.

    More Importantly, Scotland has already ruled out having anything to do with Dipity Dug and North British Labour!

  25. Bob Mack says:

    Personally I think Nicola is playing a blinder. Very determined and also being inclusive of those who would only be reluctantly dragged out of the UK. Thai is the true test of a great states person.

    She could press all sorts of grievance buttons but she remains focused,thoughtful ,measured and decisive.

    What a gift she would have been to any parliament in the world.We are very very lucky to have her,and I trust her judgement completely.

  26. Truth says:


    If Scotland retains membership of the EU it is a fact that businesses MUST move here. You cannot do business in an EU member states without having an office there.

    Just look at all the products you buy, there’s an Irish address to contact as well as a (usually) London one. Well, that London one can’t stay in London, it certainly can’t represent an independent Scotland.

  27. I really don’t think we’re going to see the 60% mark broken next week.

    When people really start to feel the effects of Brexit on their daily lives, then and only then will the time be right to push for IndyRef_2.

    There is also still the question of currency – That question needs to be clearly and emphatically resolved beforehand, otherwise all we’re doing is re-running IndyRef_1. Same arguments – same outcome.

    I think it’s right that the Scottish government prepares for that day, but patience is needed if we really want to overturn the decision made in 2014.

  28. Robert Louis says:

    Truth at 2pm,

    Yip. Agree, ALL are welcome. The more we have the better. People were quite right to vote how they wanted at the last referendum, that is democracy.

    If people now wish to vote for indy, then they are welcome. Even JK.

  29. heedtracker says:

    Scotland will provide a safe haven,a sanctuary from the insanity of Brexit,let’s do it.

    Indyref 2

    This looks like classic railroading. We have absolutely no idea whether or not the EU will allow Scotland EU membership, nothing. If EU rules are adhered to, just one of the EU members blocks Scotland. Spain probably.

    England’s not going to give up control of half its territory, even with any of the above made completely clear.

    EU stayed out of our 2014 ref completely and its likely Barnett will be cut even more by the PM Bojo UK government, trying to bullshit away the coming Brexit recession for the next few years.

    So calm down.

  30. Jim McIntosh says:

    Just put this up on the last thread should have been this one:

    I might be paranoid but can see the following scenario.

    Over the next week or so the economy tanks, the pound tanks ev n further, the EU play hardball in every conceivable way and people start to worry that they’ve done the wrong thing. Labour call a vote of no confidence in the government. This is backed by EUrophile Tories and a general election is called.

    Remembering that the referendum is only advisory and must be ratified by the parliament, both Tory and Labour parties put in their manifesto that they will refuse to ratify the referendum. So whoever wins the referendum does not get ratified, and the parliamentarians overrule the electorate.

    Scotland can’t then use this reason for Indy2, NI stays part of the U.K., and Gibraltar stays the same.

    Is this possible?

  31. asklair says:

    I do not post here often and I see my post earlier on has been deleted.

  32. call me dave says:

    Missed all the news so far as I’ve been away early morning.
    I hear Nicola has spoken but only found a cut down version on the shortbread news site.

    Anybody got a link to the full speech?

    Some NO voters coming across the floor too I hear.

    PS: Update from SNP.

    This Is Saturday,
    Last 24hrs: 1500 new members to SNP
    (welcome all!)

    ‘Scottish’ labour changing to support Indy2, Deputy Deadwood in denial but she can be ousted just the same as Corbyn darn South.

    The more I read and reflect I genuinely think the Brexit mob did not expect to win and have been left holding the baby with a shitty union jack nappie with no idea of the disaster they were about to create and have no plans to extricate themselves either.

    Scotland get ready for a GE I think.

  33. Robert Louis says:


    Scotland is not applying to join the EU, it is trying to prevent being removed from the EU – a very big difference.

    As regards Spain, just two words, fishing fleet.

    It is fundamentally in the interests of the EU for Scotland to remain.

  34. One_Scot says:

    Yip, strike while the iron is hot, may never get a more golden opportunity again. Free shot at an open goal.

  35. Brian Powell says:

    Apparently the Brit EU Referendum has nothing to do with the EU Ministers and they should mind their own business, not ask the UK do things, and the UK will do it when it suits the boys in Westminster.

  36. Bob Mack says:

    @Jim Mcintosh,

    Your summary of the situation is correct,but there is a huge elephant in the room for that scenario. The EU leaders are pushing strongly for section 50 to be implemented now rather than wait for three weeks ,let alone months There is clear evidence of contagion. They have intimated the process must start now,and once started it is irreversible.The UK is heading out of Europe but not necessarily within their preferred timescales.

  37. Jim McIntosh @ 2:07 pm says:

    Is this possible?

    Yes, it’s called a coup

  38. Valerie says:

    @Brian McHugh

    I saw that! I nearly dropped my coffee, trying to sit down without breaking my stare at the screen.

    It was surreal. He really was on the verge of bubbling. WTF was he thinking?

  39. Mchaggis69 says:

    Despite what my twitter and fb feeds show, I’d personally like to actually see the polls on indy2 before making any judgement.

  40. schrodingers cat says:

    welcome on board
    Eric “don’t fuck wi’ me” Joyce

    when you punch yon tory’s lights oot at westminster, labour should have given you a fuckin’ medal lol, anothe labour #epicfail

    seriously though folks, we need a real discussion on the way forward. btw eric, get yersel down to the next yes falkirk meeting

  41. carjamtic says:

    Heedtracker @ 2:07

    All is calm….

    No railroading….as you mibbe noticed,we mostly do logical joined up thinking in Scotland….easy now.


  42. Sands says:

    Having thought I’d have a day off from shouting at the TV, I found myself hurling abuse at the radio instead, where Ken Clarke, Emily Thornbury, Chris Grayling and the UKIP guy united to come up with a list of spurious reasons not to call for a second referendum in Scotland.

    I think my favorite was that the SNP had lost the mandate for indy in SP16. Oh,and that it would cause instability.

  43. A Welcome Home says:

    Eric does not speak for Labour.

    So until Labour support Scottish Independence his own personal views on the matter do not carry any significant weight.

    Only when his view that Labour “must support Scottish independence in Europe” has been proven true can anyone possibly then give any credence or thought to his second imperative, “Scotland must now hold a second referendum”.

    Sorry Eric, that’s only reasonable. Prove yourself right first on Labour’s stance then we should give your opinions on timing some consideration.

    Until then it would be absolute folly to second guess the First Minister and Alex Salmond’s team.

    They are thoroughly engaged in this process at every level and are not working on mere speculation but the facts.

    The Westmisnter and Scottish elections are overwhelming proof that we have already the best people in place to move forward and achieve Independence.

    Those who disagree with that can feel free to put forth their own opinions on the matter. Nothing wrong with that after all.

    However, the reality is there is simply no question of anyone other than the SNP and Nicola being our best hope for IndyRef2 since we have the level of public trust, election results and EU referendum result to prove that conclusively.

  44. Graham says:

    “For now, there’s only one card for Scottish Labour to play. It must support Scottish independence in Europe.”

    Problem with that idea Eric is that Kez and her branch of British Labour In Scotland are in no position to change Labour policy regarding Scottish independence.

  45. Juteman says:

    Just a thought. If we can hold a referendum before the 2 years for the UK to leave are up, and assuming there is a Yes vote in that ref, would we actually have left the EU?

  46. laukat says:

    Was it just me or has Nicola not now stated twice to the EU that the UK no longer speaks for Scotland? Its nowhere near a UDI but it does declare to the Scottish public that the only way forward is through the Scottish government

    I expect this to move quickly. I expect polls next week of 60/40 in favour of Independence with more and more prominent No voters declaring for Yes. I think by the end of next week we will be talking about an Indyref in March 2017

  47. call me dave says:


    The first minister has disclosed that she is to invite all EU diplomats based in Scotland to a summit at her official residence in Edinburgh within the next two weeks, in a bid to sidestep the UK government.

    Brexit wipes $2tn off markets as Moody’s lowers UK credit rating outlook

  48. HandandShrimp says:

    So far Nicola is pitching this all absolutely spot on and is looking a damned sight more level headed, calm and logical than the shambles in Westminster.

  49. ahundredthidiot says:

    I think Eric is right about one thing, we do not have the luxury of time, no need to flap of course, but there does need to be a sense of urgency.

    Indyref 2 in May 2017 for me with independence 12 months later, should we be successful.

    Our reality is accepting the Euro as currency to join.

  50. Dave says:

    Why not a reverse Greenland it left the EU and is still part of Denmark. So England and Wales leave the EU and Scotland and NI stay. Simples.

  51. heedtracker says:

    carjamtic says:
    25 June, 2016 at 2:24 pm
    Heedtracker @ 2:07

    All is calm….


    Its just all a bit disorientating watching unionists in Scotland going ref 2 now nuts.

    Minds change but if we did charge into ref 2 asap and lose…

  52. Jim McIntosh says:

    Donald Urquhart says:
    25 June, 2016 at 2:20 pm

    “Yes, it’s called a coup”

    But a very ‘British’ coup, as people would have voted for it. Everyone on the ballot could be called Hobson. ?

  53. handclapping says:

    So Dippity says Scotland doesn’t need independence but the devolved governments must be involved in the exit negotiations (

    Can the girl not see the anomaly? And she is the “leader”!

  54. Bob Mack says:


    No, even the UK would be technically members for two years though activity and participation in decision making would be suspended. Scotland would therefore have continuous membership if the referendum was successful within that time frame. Other options would also be feasible to maintain consistency of membership.

  55. A Welcome Home says:

    We also have to deal with what is in front of us. The Scottish Council elections must be fought and fought hard for the SNP.

    We want to do well there and it will be extremely valuable to know if those council elections will give us any kind of read into IndyRef2.

    Not to mention the possibility of another Westminster G.E.

    We have the will and the people to do all this but let’s not pretend there isn’t a great deal of hard work ahead.

    We may have just finished EU campaigning but I, for one, still look forward to welcoming all those who can help us in that hard work ahead.

    Every aspect of it will help us achieve Independence through IndyRef2.

    The Scottish public deserve better than endless westminster chaos, hatred and uncaring tory rule. We will not let them down.

  56. Al says:

    Let’s give Nicola a chance to do her job. She has never given us cause to question her judgement before.

    Meanwhile, it looks like the main EU countries have their own reasons to want to avoid making leaving the EU look like an easy option. If the UK want access to EU markets then the EU will be in a position to dictate terms and they will not want those terms to be too comfortable. Paradoxically, instead of “taking their country back”, the Brexit UK may be set to become Brussels’ new bitch.

  57. Juteman says:

    @Bob Mack
    But we wouldn’t be in the UK when they were ejaculated.

  58. Proud Cybernat says:

    “The first minister has disclosed that she is to invite all EU diplomats based in Scotland to a summit at her official residence in Edinburgh within the next two weeks, in a bid to sidestep the UK government.” – The Guardian

    Just make sure Aliar Carmichael is as far away from the effing summit as possible.

  59. cearc says:

    It is worth revisiting Craig Murray’s comment of the 9th. June.

    ‘…If we did see Brexit, I would argue for Holyrood MSPs and Scotland’s Westminster MPs to meet together as a National Assembly and declare Independence, to be followed by a confirmatory referendum, the object of the Delcaration being to maintain the rights of Scots as EU citizens. There would be a great deal of international sympathy for that, and as I have continually explained, as a matter of firm and indisputable international law you achieve Independence through recognition by other states, not by any arrangement or otherwise with the residual UK.’

    It looks rather like the route that Nicola is taking.

  60. Thepnr says:

    “I think by the end of next week we will be talking about an Indyref in March 2017”

    Would make a lot of sense to me if any future Referendum took place after the Scottish Council elections in 2017.

    I very much hope too for a brief canvassing period between announcing a date and having the vote. We all start canvassing now of course.

    Regarding Erics 60/40 lead for Yes in the next poll/s bit skeptical myself at this stage be happy enough to see 55/45.

  61. Juteman says:

    Well observed. UDI but not UDI?

  62. Thepnr says:

    The May elections will be the best guide to support for SNP and Independence post the Brexit vote as the biggest test of public opinion in Scotland since last Thursday.

  63. Gordon Ross says:

    I agree with most of this but there are a couple of parts that I would question.

    Will the next Tory leader call an election? We’ll soon know but there is a strong possibility that they will just rely on the current Tory majority for the next four years. What do they have to gain from a GE?

    There will be some Yes voters who would vote no if asked to choose between EU or UK. I know of a couple already. There will be far more No voters who switch but we have to ensure there are enough to gain a majority this time.

    An early move for Indyref2 is essential to allow companies to have a choice between relocating to Scotland or mainland Europe. These additional jobs and investment in Scotland would be a good incentive to attract support but also as a counter to the lies that we saw before and will see again.

    The big difference between the last Indy ref and the EU ref was that they could not in the latter rely on the media to parrot their lies. A case in point was the interference from that lying two faced twonk from the US. Blanket coverage in one case and hardly a cheep on the other.

  64. schrodingers cat says:

    lots about what nicola should do,

    little about what the grass roots should do

    the snp cannot and wont launch the yes2 movement. that is for us to do. indeed, no snp mp, msp or councilor can even be seen to be part of any grass roots organisation (yes2, lfi etc) until the date for indyref2 is actually announced

    it is all very well stating that we need to organise, but the question remains? how?

  65. FergusMac says:

    I hope that the Scottish Government will now cut Fluffy Mundell and the Fifth Column otherwise known as the Scottish Office out of the loop.

  66. Croompenstein says:

    Our reality is accepting the Euro as currency to join

    Stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop…

    this pish

  67. FergusMac says:

    I hope that the Scottish Government will now cut Fluffy Mundell and the Fifth Column known as the Scottish Office out of the loop.

  68. schrodingers cat says:

    Thepnr says:
    25 June, 2016 at 2:53 pm
    The May elections will be the best guide to support for SNP and Independence post the Brexit vote.

    agreed, it will also give nicola the chance to confirm unoquivocally her democratic mandate to hold indyref2. and if it is another wipeout for the unionist councillors, then controlling all 32 councils means the snp can actually hold indyref2, whether bojo says we can or not.

    i still think that yes2 needs to organise and start campaigning sooner than this

  69. @cearc

    If The Donald wins in the USA he would definitely recognise Scotland if UDI was declared.

  70. keaton says:

    This site said on May 6th that “independence is now categorically and unequivocally off the table for at least half a decade”. Can we now take it that post was just written in anger and didn’t have any truth content?

  71. Kenny Ritchie says:

    The irony being that the greatest gift to Scottish independence was a Tory majority government.

  72. ScottieDog says:

    Huge escalation in house prices are a function of the London Ponzi scheme. We want house prices to decrease and the the population to deleverage its private debt.

  73. jcd says:

    Earlier on Boom Bust RT Ed Harrison said that Nicola Sturgeon (or he might have been referring to SNP/SG policy) wants an independent Scotland within the EU, and using the Euro. He went on to say that by doing so Scotland would be exchanging one set of constraints for another, and he’s got a point. Is this true, has she actually said that about using the Euro, or is Harrison just misinformed?

    Would really appreciate if someone could clear that up.

    RT isn’t against Scots indy, but they’re not particularly for it either. Quite often as and when Scottish affairs come up they have on unionist commentators spouting their lies and bilge and it’s left unchallenged, just as with msm here. In RT’s case though I think it might have something to do with the fact that most if not all of their uk staff are English home counties types who while not necessarily opposed to Scots indy just don’t know much about Scotland either.

    Anyway the currency thing really needs to get sorted out pronto, now that it’s looking like we may well be going for indyref2 sooner than might have been expected. Like I asked before, can anyone fill me in on what the SNP/SG is saying/proposing re an independent Scotland’s unit of currency would be.

    Somehow I’m not sure that proposing we accept the Euro would be a good idea, questionable judgement.

  74. heedtracker says:

    Kenny Ritchie says:
    25 June, 2016 at 3:02 pm
    The irony being that the greatest gift to Scottish independence was a Tory majority government.

    Except it wasnt Ken. England voted tory so hard, it would have made no difference if SLab had won back its 40 odd wee low flyers last GE.

    Sorry dude. England’s tory. That’s the reality

  75. heedtracker says:

    Huge Brexit thing in FT

    London fights for its future Follow
    Banks begin moving some operations out of Britain
    ECB official warns on loss of EU ‘passporting’ rights for UK financial services

    Banks have already begun to take action to shift operations out of the UK, with the governor of France’s central bank warning on Saturday that Britain’s financial services were at risk of losing their right to operate across the EU.”

    If City of Lnndon really is Crash Gordon’s UKOK economic powerhouse, maybe we can get back to actually making stuff again, maybe we;ll have no choice.

  76. Colken says:


    My family are from a fishing village on the west coast. Most voted Yes first time round and leave in this referendum. I can say with some certainty that they won’t vote Yes again if their livelihoods are sacrificed for the greater good. Some compromise has to be found there.

  77. Fred says:

    “Take Back Control!”

  78. Kenny Ritchie says:

    heedtracker says:
    25 June, 2016 at 3:11 pm
    Kenny Ritchie says:
    25 June, 2016 at 3:02 pm
    The irony being that the greatest gift to Scottish independence was a Tory majority government.

    Except it wasnt Ken. England voted tory so hard, it would have made no difference if SLab had won back its 40 odd wee low flyers last GE.

    Sorry dude. England’s tory. That’s the reality

    But, if there hadn’t been a Tory majority, there would have been no EU referendum, no Brexit, and no forthcoming independence referendum.

  79. jimnarlene says:

    If Kez doesn’t back indyref2.0, before the local elections, she will be facing the third phase of “Labour” extinction.

  80. Callum says:

    Every new Scot must be welcomed. Sure, there could be a lot of new Scots from down south, EU, further afield and returning Scots but we’ll squeeze everyone in and make it work.

  81. Juteman says:

    Loads of new posters saying their best mates dog voted Yes last time, but they will vote No this time if it means staying in the EU. The dog seemingly voted Leave in this referendum.
    What a load of pish. The Yes vote last time meant staying in the EU!
    The British State trolls have started early! 🙂

  82. Richardinho says:

    Good article but interesting also on a meta level: If you’d told me a couple of years ago that Eric Joyce was the answer, I’d have been worried about what the question was!

    Yet the way that he has reformed and reinvented himself in recent times is an example to many others in the unionist establishment that they don’t have to cling to the wreckage of the SLP as it nosedives towards the ocean floor.

    Hopefully others will follow this example and If in ten years time Scotland is independent I guarantee that you will struggle to find anyone who ever was against it.

    And by the way: That’s a good thing.

  83. Martin Richmond says:

    “Eric Joyce is the former Labour MP for Falkirk.”

    You forgot… In two separate years the Westminster MP who claimed the highest level of expenses and a violent criminal. Context.

  84. Petra says:

    Thanks for the excellent article Eric. Really appreciated.

    One or two posters on here have complained over time about the ‘ineffectiveness’ of the SNP; more so Nicola. I reckon that Nicola knows exactly what she’s doing and that a great deal goes on behind the scenes that we are totally unaware of.

    She’ll understand the timeline of carrying out another Referendum versus RUK’s exit from Europe but more than anything she’ll be keeping an eye on the polls hoping to see at least 60% support, consistently, over a period of time. She’ll do this because we can’t afford to lose again.

    The sooner this happens the better of course because Westminster will come out with all guns blazing. We’ll be threatened with ‘security’ issues, the Turks and terrorists flooding Scotland and so on. As to the latter we may find that the EU decides to reverse its open border policy just as England et al are leaving.

    Kezia Dugdale? Well what can one say? She seems to have totally lost the plot and is now openly showing her utter contempt for the Scots. Westminster’s way or no way. A Westminster that looks as though it will be run by the Tories, Fascist Tories at that, for decades to come. Is this what she wants to subject the Scots to? She who bleats on constantly about caring for our children: NOT. She and Murphy lost many members to the SNP. Will many more Labour supporters leave to join us now or parties such as Labour for Independence? Maybe Stu could carry out some research to this effect? Are there any Labour supporters out there now? If so how many? How many have left to join other partys and what effected their decisions?

    And then there’s the Tory and Lib-dem partys in Scotland. What are they going to do post Independence? Every last one of their politicians have shown, clearly, that they have no belief whatsoever in Scotland being able to ‘go it’ alone. Would the Scots want such ‘cringe’ people, worst still destructive, subversive (slaying Nats) elements, making decisions for us in Holyrood? Making decisions for a Nat filled Scotland? Knowing their love of Westminster will they head south or will their members join Scottish Tory and Lib-dem partys for Independence?

  85. Valerie says:


    My thoughts too, after her first speech, and confirmed in her second. UDI soft.

    Speeches by our FM, are leaving no room for misinterpretation, especially by those watching closely in Europe. Distance from WM essential for Europe and business.

    Ruth stupidly asserts indyref2 would create instability.

  86. heedtracker says:

    Colken says:
    25 June, 2016 at 3:15 pm

    My family are from a fishing village on the west coast. Most voted Yes first time round and leave in this referendum. I can say with some certainty that they won’t vote Yes again if their livelihoods are sacrificed for the greater good. Some compromise has to be found there.

    This does seem to be the consensus of some opposition to Scotland running Scotland. Problem is, “fishing communities” like yours have nearly emptied our seas and oceans of life and much of it was done before the EU came into being.

    Do you see the problem? Its EU rules and regs that have at the very least stopped “fishing communities” like yours from catching everything.

    And the idea of giving back control of what’s left out there to “fishing communities” like yours, is probably the end of life in the north sea and the Atlantic ocean.

    But what can you do, lets Leave and have our BoJO and Faragian UKOK independence day.

  87. Dal Riata says:

    Sorry, O/T

    Anyone know of an at least semi-reliable internet site (or two) to watch the footy Euro matches, um, as they are being played? I had a couple of go-to sites up to today, but they’re now virus carriers, FFS! So can anyone please help out? Pretty please?

  88. Inkall says:

    It strikes me as odd for previously yes voters to say they will vote no because of the eu as in 2014 there was a good chance we would be staying in the eu.

  89. Croompenstein says:

    Do you ken whit I am getting pretty pissed off with the fishermen in this country with their fuckin SNP Baad and Holyrood Baad pish when neither have any control of the fishing industry.

    Westminster has been shitting on fishermen for as long as I can remember. I can remember the big rally at Tynecastle in 1992 and for the thickos that is before the Scottish parliament was reconvened.

    Here is hansard from 1992 with a certain Mr Alex Salmond fighting the Scottish fishermans corner in Westminster. Do you ever stop to think that maybe a Scottish government would get a better deal for fishermen than the UK ever would. Stop fuckin moaning and waving your butchers aprons.

  90. laukat says:

    @Valerie – Have a look at this tweet from Faisal Islam, Sky News reporter, he gets it

    I’ve just been polled by yougov and part of that was the independence question. If Survation and Yougov are polling and it comes back 60/40 Yes then this will move very quickly. I would expect the polls to come out on Monday based on previous patterns.

  91. schrodingers cat says:

    interesting from nicola

    she calls all 27 consulates for a meeting

    this is no doubt to here the official position of their respective countries vis a vis scotland.

    she will also ask them if their heads of government are willing to meet her to discuss…

    i think they will, especially since the tories are delaying negotiations for 3 months to elect a new pm and the eu want negotiations to start immediately.

    seeing nicola being met by hollande in paris will tell you all you need to know.

    it looks more like camerons promise to involve the 4 devolved governments in negotiations was a plea to nicola not to go above his head.

    if the consulates agree, nicola should appoint a junior minister to lead westminster negotiations

    revenge is sweet

    “cameron, she never writes….she never phones etc”

  92. Paula Rose says:

    Seeing as how an Independent Scotland would have a larger representation in the EU and control all aspects of fishing negotiations I don’t foresee any sacrificing going on, that is what UK Westminster does.

  93. steviescosmic says:

    I’m not at all convinced, and never have been, that the UK will exit the EU in anything like the way people thought. For starters, there is no one willing to pull the trigger on Article 50, not Cameron, not Gove nor BoJo. It’s almost as if they were as shocked as we were at the result. Junker says it must be invoked by next week at the latest.

    I don’t know what game they are playing, but when Greece effectively tried to blackmail the EU last year, the EU took the Euro economy to the brink of collapse without blinking once: you can’t blackmail these guys, they’ve proved that. Perhaps the markets will force a move from either side by the end of next week.

    It’s almost like Gove and Bojo believe they can renegotiate from a quasi in out position, that their position is somehow strengthened from being in limbo. If that is their play, then Junker and his buddies have seen right through it.

    It will be very interesting indeed to hear what the results of the ScotGov’s representations to the EU next week. That may well determine whether there’ll be an indyref2 at all.

  94. schrodingers cat says:

    Martin Richmond

    You forgot… a violent criminal

    twating some creepy tory mp…. you mean war hero?

  95. msean says:

    Great piece.

  96. For there to be an early GE,

    two thirds of MP`s must vote a No Confidence in Lizzies Gov motion,

    I think that is the only way to hold an early GE,

    `Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011`

  97. TonyD says:

    For me this isn’t about whether we’re in EU or not, it’s about our current voices being silenced, GE 2015 brought us a Tory govt we overwhelmingly rejected and now or EU vote to remain counts for nada! Can’t wait for INDYREF2, as only need a 6% swing!

  98. Ananurhing says:

    Nicola pitched that perfect this morning. What a stateswoman. The people of the rUK must look on and wonder why they have no one of her calibre providing leadership right now.

    I’m not hanging waiting for a date for indyref2. It’s going to happen sooner than any of us thought. I’m happy with that for now.

    I’m relishing seeing the Scottish govt having direct talks with the EU and acquiting themselves well at proper grown up politics rather than having to stomach the usual puerile racist pish of westminster.

    It’s hard to imagine the EU not acting to protect our citizenship in these circumstances. They can’t be seen to abandon us, or ignore our democratically expressed will.

    The games a bogey for the union now anyway, but as soon as the EU start to engage with Scotland as a separate entity for whatever reason, it’s game over.

  99. call me dave says:

    The ripples on the pond widen.

    Tata Steel Bidders Get Cold Feet Over Brexit


    OR the stv equivalent


  100. Glamaig says:

    That petition doing the rounds for a re-run of the EU referendum with 75% turnout and 60% Leave hurdles is just mental. England would explode with violence if they tried that.

  101. Martin Richmond says:

    @Schrödinger’s cat

    You should do a little more research. Not everyone with an army career is a war hero… I could have added drunk driver too.

  102. Vronsky says:

    Read two sentences before realising that it wasn’t Rev Stu talking.

    So scroll back to the top – who wrote this? Oh…gotcha….ok.

  103. Very quiet from Osborne and The Ruthfuhrer,

    are they locked away practising their speeches for leader of Toryworld,

    legs spread out, roaring at the compliant media audience,

    `friends,Yoons,englishmen,I come not to bury Cammo`

  104. Famous15 says:

    O/T Just completed a YouGov poll.

    How did I vote in the ERef,what party do i support,would i like a second indy ref ,would i like a scotland indy ref and how would i vote,would i like a General Election and how would I vote,whih politicians like/dislike,how left right or centre are the political i support nuclear weapons ,is the UK govt doing good job ,is Scottish govt dong good job,was Cameron right to resign ,am I Scottish,Brit or European etc etc.

    They use the word “country” on occasion without saying They mean Scotland or UK

  105. A Welcome Home says:

    A point to remember for those who are apprehensive about a westminster No campaign based on immigration fears.

    The Brexiters (tories and kippers) are already backtracking furiously on the levels of immigration and the specifics of free movement.

    So they can scarcely afford to stoke more fears about that as they are preparing to disappoint the more hardline elements who supported OUT.

    Nor will the westminster media be too keen to let that cat out of the bag yet again lest they give even more power to Farage, the kippers and those deploying anti-immigration rhetoric.

    The hardline elements from OUT will pounce on any and all anti-immigration propaganda used for our IndyRef2 to advance their cause back in westminster.

    So unless the tories and the westminster establishment want immigration to truly dominate the discourse for the next ten years or so they will hardly use it as a central plank against Scottish Independence.

    It would also make Ruth Davidson’s position untenable since she campaigned right along side Cameron for IN and against the Brexiters anti-immigrant rhetoric.

  106. jdman says:

    Wee folding bike says
    “Kezia has already moved with the speed of a coiled panther to rule out Labour support for Indy Ref 2.”

    Kezia has already moved with the speed of a coiled slinky to continue her downward travel!
    fixed that for you

    Walter Scott
    love it! 🙂

  107. Merkin Scot says:

    Many Indy supporters voted leave for tactical reasons and do not actually support the EU super state.

  108. Marcia says:

    This Brexit farce reminds me of film,’The Producers’ who put on a play hoping it would be flop.

    It seems the Leave side did not really expect to win so did no preparation for it. The Scottish Government were over prepared in 2013 compared to them.

  109. Dal Riata says:


    Thanks for that! But… keep getting something along the lines of “You are outside the geographical area to receive this transmission”. Tried setting a VPN to different countries but the same message keeps coming up. Bugger! Ah, well, thanks all the same Croompenstein.

    Anyone else got anything?

  110. The Man in the Jar says:

    Lots of comments today. I have not had the time to read them all so apologies if this has been said already.

    While we are getting excited at the prospect of indiref2 we should spare a thought for supporters of Plaid Cymru. Poor souls stuck with a large proportion of English folk living in Wales and many fellow countrymen still believing in the Labour party’s pish.Their outlook must be looking very grim indeed.

    Perhaps they could all move to Anglesea and form a Free Welsh Government under the protection of Scotland.

    It is one thing making a joke of it but my heart goes out to those living in a nightmare of someone else’s creation.

  111. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    I had a lovely call today from a good neighbour who knows the circumstances chez Sutherland, and who has been an ardent Labour supporter all her adult life, saying that she now regrets voting “no” at the last indyref and won’t do so ever again. It was the cheeriest thing I have heard over the last few weeks.

    I said to her what I would like to say to anyone else in the same position who happens to read this. I am truly sorry that the UK you supported has turned out to be a much lesser thing than the one you believed in, but it’s encouraging to realise that we’re all heading in the same direction, the only difference being the speed by which each of us has come to that inevitable understanding.

    And Wingers, please be supportive of newcomers to the cause. Some may be bandwagon-jumpers, but the vast majority will not, and the newcomers will not necessarily be any less ardent or genuine than anyone who has preceded them.

    I wouldn’t even mind if any of the Unionist parties in Scotland had an epiphany for indy and had a positive contribution to make. It would be a very smart move for SLab in particular to do that as Eric Joyce suggests, since otherwise they are going to bleed away all the good people like my neighbour and only be left with useless reactionary dregs. But somehow I fear they have neither the courage nor integrity to do it. (though I would be happy to be proved wrong!)

    I’m coming to the conclusion that the EUref could be for Scotland what the execution of the Easter Rising rebels was for Ireland, the one singular badly-misjudged event that changed everything, and changed it irrevocably.

    Now’s the day and now’s the hour.

  112. FergusMac says:

    I used to live in Sweden, and my wife is Swedish. I thought I’d have a look at what the papers are saying. This is from today’s Svenska Dagbladet, one of Sweden’s two national dailies:

    Here is my translation:

    The Disintegration of Great Britain has Begun

    “Whoops a daisy” – the Brits are looking for the “regret button”. By Saturday, over a million people had signed a petition for a new referendum to be held on the EU. The major parties are fighting for their political futures. And in both Scotland and Northern Ireland, support for independence is growing. Scotland wants immediate talks with the EU to remain in the Union. The disintegration of Great Britain has begun.

  113. Sandy says:

    A few points.

    1. I doubt there will be a General Election as Eric suggests. The Tories will settle this with an internal leadership election rather than risk their slim majority. We’re stuck with them for four years, I think.

    2. An independent Scotland will need a left-wing party, naturally. However, if any of it (other than, perhaps, the name) is grounded in the current SLab setup it will be stillborn.

    3. The ‘coup’ scenario, where parties win a GE on a manifesto is intriguing (although see point 1, I doubt there’ll be one). However, it sounds like many of those that voted Leave did so because they felt alienated and disenfranchised. It would be opening Pandora’s Box to go and prove to them they were right.

    That said, I can see there being a lot of manoeuvring and wriggling to avoid the Brexit, cue a second referendum to get the ‘right’ result.

  114. Glamaig says:

    At first I was thinking it might be a year or two before Indyref2, but maybe ASAP would be better, before the UK economy implodes and takes us with it. We need to catch the momentum, and get out fast.

    We need a firm undertaking from the EU first so we know exactly what we’re getting. Then we’ll see businesses relocating to Scotland before the vote giving us another boost. I think we’ll see some academia moving north too.

    Then, it’s staying in the UK that would be a leap in the dark…

  115. heedtracker says:

    Marcia says:
    25 June, 2016 at 4:22 pm
    This Brexit farce reminds me of film,’The Producers’ who put on a play hoping it would be flop.

    You’re so cruel Marcia, with such a brilliant analogy. And who was also in the remake? Whatever happened to, John Vote NO you clowns Barrowman.

  116. david anderson says:

    Living in France, moved back for the referendum and then back here again dissapointed. Just wanted to say, I was cutting the grass today and I could literally smell Independence for Scotland in the air and boy did it smell sweet. Will be back again for the next one and boy will I party. People here are either bemused or couldn’t care less about the vote to leave 9not that the media would have you thinking that). My smile is lighting up a little corner of Brittany today!

  117. G says:

    From August 2014:

    Despite the reason given being Scotland’s potential exclusion from the EU, no statements were issued before the EU referendum, and none have been issued since the result. The silence is deafening.

    This is one company I will never buy from again.

  118. JLT says:

    There is no doubting the joy amongst the vast majority of nationalists on hearing that a 2nd Referendum will take place …at some point. But it’s getting to that eventual point!

    Make no bones about it, the whole process of getting there is going to be the equivalent of navigating a huge minefield in misty conditions.

    When to hold it?; What about Yessers who don’t like the EU?; what about a general public sick to death of elections and referendums? What currency will we use?; How will trade work between an EU-Scotland and an anti-EU England? …it’s a complete basketcase. We didn’t ask for it, but we are being asked to solve it.

    As said, I’ve had friends and family howl in despair at me over the last 36 hours about the possibility of another Scottish Referendum. ‘We just want a break from it all’, they wail.

    Well, they are all kidding themselves to begin if they believe they are getting a period of reflective solitude. Life for them in the UK is never going to be the same again. They are going to be dragged along whether they like it or not, as the UK tries to work out where it is going. These islands are tearing forward into the dark looking for something but not sure of what it seeks. For Westminster, it will try to work out in bafflement of what it hazily thinks it wants, while at the same time, tries to keep one eye on all the home nations; one eye on a very angry, confused English electorate, and one eye on a very, very pissed off Europe. That’s three major issues that Westminster will have to focus on while doing it with only a set of two eyes. Simply put …something is going to give. What will it be? …well that’s for the Gods to decide, and right now, the Gods are playing the game that it loves best in wishing to destroy those in which they first make mad …and at this point, half of the UK seems to have gone mad. Irrational thinking mixed with paranoia and distrust with a dash of borderline xenophobia. A wonderful potent mix.

    But we in Scotland not only have to contend with what our English sister is doing, but we will also have our own problems on top.

    While watching in bemusement at what England is trying to achieve, we also have the problem of trying to work out what our own electorate is thinking and what the EU actually makes of Scotland. If the EU won’t have us …then where does that leave Scotland within the greater UK context? Do we sit outside 2 unions?

    This is Machiavellian thinking on steroids. Politics within politics within politics …or as how Churchill once described Soviet Russia; it is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma. Nothing like the discord and sheer uncertainty has gripped these islands since the War of the Three Kingdoms when England, Scotland and Ireland all vied with each other over very different politics, and over a set of very different religions. The outcome led to Cromwell and the hated Republic of the Commonwealth. Pray our outcome is not a Union of neo-fascist-toryism.

    This is the minefield that we face. How to pacify a ‘lost’ England, pay homage to a ‘fragmented’ EU, and somehow …get all our fellow countrymen to agree to a common goal of where our future lies. This is why we have the difficulty of naming a Referendum date, and what it should be argued on.

    It is going to be trickier than you think…

  119. Effijy says:

    In order to support the large number of Bankers Brass Plaques being relocated from London to Edinburgh.

    Fat Boab Davidson and Dipity Dug are to have their Brass necks melted down to meet demand.

    Which Scottish Cities can support the relocated Nissan Plant,
    Toyota, Jaguar, Aston Martin, etc?

    We might need to adopt the entire population of Poland to keep up.

  120. Proud Cybernat says:

    Oh and workers of Govan shipyards–the UK might not be buying your ships now (as they cynically promised you pre-IndyRef#1) but the Scots Government WILL be buying for the new Scottish Navy in the new indy Scotland. Don’t be fooled by WM again.

  121. schrodingers cat says:

    lighten up Martin Richmond

    being ex army myself, i didnt call eric a war hero for his military service but because he lamped a tory mp

  122. heedtracker says:

    The audience be like Scotland watching England

  123. Thomas Valentine says:

    I wait to hear what James “Volare” Kelly has to say about this first Eric.
    As to Labour (scotland district branch) I was very surprised to hear anything from Dugdale. Why not just say nothing? Why so keen to demonstrate her grovelling dog loyalty so soon? I can see the panic in Ruth Davidson facing a UKIP Tory boss in London. Her coat hook must have been loosened quite a bit.
    But I don’t see Labour in Scotland doing anything smart. They’ve carefully been selected as the loyal incompetents.

  124. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Effijy @ 16:36 said:

    We might need to adopt the entire population of Poland to keep up.

    Nae chance, mate. They’ll all be needed working for the civil service in London revising the literally hundreds of UK laws that will now be required.

    Apparently it will require a whole new government department with its own minister of state.

    Which will cost more than the (totally-fictional) savings the UK is supposed to be going to have.

  125. heedtracker says:

    FT says Leave vote was strongest in areas most dependent economically on the EU.

  126. Effijy says:

    A bit of time to fully establish Scotland’s options would be good. I’m certain that if we give the Right Wing Tories enough rope, they will hang themselves.

    Gove made plenty of promises to Scotland, should the UK
    vote for Brexit. Yet again nothing delivered and no sign of it happening.

    Let Scotland recognise that Tories thrive on lying to Scotland.

    Where is our Vow to deliver Home Rule, where is the £3 Billion renewable funds we were promised, the security of the 3,000 HMRC jobs that were promised, where are the 13 ships promised for the Clyde, can you see the £1 Billion Carbon Capture promised for Peterhead?

    Lie, Lies, Lies, Lies, Lies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Indy 2 momentum will grow every day as they renege on everything Brexit promised.

    Every day you will see companies puting a halt on English investment, and relocating jobs out of England.

    I predict that there will be a massive campaign in England to back peddle, when they see the mess that they have created.

  127. Derick fae Yell says:

    Lots of new names on here today


  128. Ruby says:

    Dal Riata says:
    25 June, 2016 at 4:23 pm


    Thanks for that! But… keep getting something along the lines of “You are outside the geographical area to receive this transmission”. Tried setting a VPN to different countries but the same message keeps coming up. Bugger! Ah, well, thanks all the same Croompenstein.

    Anyone else got anything?

    Ruby replies

    Did you set you VPN to UK?

    I did a bit of experimenting and set VPN to Spain and got the ‘outside geographical area’ but when I connected to UK it worked fine. I am in the UK so I probably didn’t need to use the VPN but I did it just as an experiment.

    My suggestion is make sure your VPN is connected to UK server.

  129. Vestas says:

    I was musing on this on a previous articles comments thread but the more I think about it, the more I think we’re headed to UDI with a confirmatory referendum.

    The language Nicola Sturgeon used suggests to me that there’s already been positive contact between her and leader(s) in the EU in the last 48 hours. I doubt she’d have been quite so explicit about bypassing Westminster completely had there not.

    I’m wondering whether the message is that if she’s ready to have a UDI/indyref as soon as A50 is triggered then “good things” would happen in terms of EU membership. It would be impossible for the EU to remove citizenship from Scots given the EU ref vote if UDI/indyref happens, so get it started priot to A50 trigger & you’re in.

    Whatever the plan is, it needs to happen fast, before the average voter sinks back into apathy. After all its extremely unlikely that anything noticeable to the general public is going to change this year. By that time the tabloids will be full of “Old Firm” shit to distract the average punter 🙁

    Again I should point out that I think Scotland would do better in EFTA/EEA but I recognise that viewpoint isn’t going to get independence anytime soon. Independence within the EU is a starting point which we’d be mad to refuse – REGARDLESS of our views on the EU.

  130. Proud Cybernat says:


    Herald IndyRef poll (at time of posting):

    Leave UK 81%
    Stay in UK: 17%
    D/K: 3%


  131. Richardinho says:

    Kezia Dugdale’s reaction to Brexit is priceless: she says that Scotland “must have a voice in the Brexit negotiations”.

    You heard right: That’s what we got out of the first indy referendum!

  132. maureen says:

    Met my first convert today. He was delivering a bed for me and we got chatting. He said he voted no in the Indyref but as a result of the eu ref, he will definitely be voting yes if we were to have another Indyref
    One down, how many more to go, lol!

  133. Martin Richmond says:

    @schrodingers cat. ?

    He also assaulted two teenage boys in a shop whilst tanked up. (Plus the expenses and the drink driving). I guess we all pick our own heroes, but he doesn’t make my list.

  134. Ruby says:

    ‘When calculating those who’s support independence in indyref2 remember 62% in didn’t include eu citizens or 16/17 year olds’

    I read the above on Twitter and thought it was interesting.

    Re Kezia: I think she just follows whatever Ruth does!

  135. Robert J. Sutherland says:


    We have to keep in mind that the EU isn’t immutable either, despite its oft-assumed rigidity. It has received a serious shock of its own, and if it’s to survive, it will surely have to recognise that it has lost much credibility with ordinary people everywhere, who see it as distant and far too much in cahoots with corporate big business. That is going to have to be addressed somehow.

    One thing is for sure, TTIP is now dead. (And not just because the UK won’t be in there pushing for it.)

  136. Breeks says:

    Here’s a “what if” for you…

    What if the EU Leaders took a strategic decision NOT to talk to Nicola, since Scotland is not a sovereign state, thus obliging the First Minister to declare a UDI to be subsequently ratified by referendum as Craig Murray has described.
    A UDI takes all of the risk out a second YES / No referendum, and could happen very quickly, but a UDI “forced” onto Scotland by “hardball” EU is not the same as a UDI rashly announced without due cause by the SNP acting alone. Not so much a UDI unilateral Declaration of Independence, but an EDI; an Expedient Declaration of Independence.

    The doubters and No voters will have their chance to challenge the state of affairs democratically, that is if they can all get to the polling station in Benbecula before the polls close, but after Scotland has confirmed membership status in Europe, and having secured those critical sovereign powers of choice.

  137. Macart says:

    Thought provoking post Mr Joyce and I’d agree with much of it. How and ever on timing? Not so much.

    No rushing blindly on the back of a single poll IMO. It may well be that after all considerations the end result will be an indyref. I also suspect that the timing of the July independence drive was NOT a coincidence. Thursday’s vote was always going to determine the tenor of the new campaign.

    Equally I don’t think its a coincidence that all 27 member states are being invited to have a wee chinwag over the coming days. I suspect a lot more than obscure legal options will be under discussion. It wouldn’t surprise me to find the FM laying the groundwork for EU based indyref support and testing the waters on a status of continuation.

    What matters most though, is that through some quirk of fate, I believe the right government is in the right place at the right time of constitutional crisis. This is the one party who eat, sleep and breathe independence and constitutional options. They have the experience, the knowledge base and the motivation.

    So far their actions in the aftermath of Thursday’s vote have shown calm, measured and stable leadership. A government in control of its brief. This will almost certainly be an all too rare second chance. Let’s make sure we make the most of it.

  138. Ruby says:

    ‘That opposition could even be the Scottish Labour Party one day’

    This political party that calls itself the ‘Scottish Labour Party’ is just a branch of the British Labour Party. There is no way a British party would get elected in an iScotland.
    Perhaps there will be a new party that calls it’s Scottish Labour Party although in an iScotland it could probably drop the Scottish label that would be unneccesary. I would suggest that any new party might want to use a different name why burden yourself with a toxic label?

  139. Vestas says:

    @ Robert J Sutherland

    I would hope so but I’m not holding my breath on the EU reforming itself.

    What has been done to the youth of Spain & Greece to pay off bankers debts is unforgivable. Likewise the removal of elected govts in Italy & Greece is totally unacceptable.

    However its a case of any port in a storm now – never mind economics, I can see NI going up in flames again & its just time to be gone from the “UK”. If that requires conforming to the same EU laws/regs we already do then its a complete no-brainer 🙂

    Independence, a reasonably stable currency (Euro will do, we don’t want our own as it’d be a “petro-currency”) and a few years to work out what the hell we’re doing – then we can have schisms about Europe 😀

  140. heedtracker says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says:
    25 June, 2016 at 5:09 pm

    We have to keep in mind that the EU isn’t immutable either, despite its oft-assumed rigidity. It has received a serious shock of its own, and if it’s to survive, it will surely have to recognise that it has lost much credibility with ordinary people everywhere, who see it as distant and far too much in cahoots with corporate big business. That is going to have to be addressed somehow.

    And you base this opinion on what exactly? England’s left at the behest of right wing chancers, and the usual far right media reprobates like the Heil.

    So that’s one thing.

    BoJo and co have had big cheers from other far right whack jobs in France and Holland but that hardly gives credence to your “it will surely have to recognise that it has lost much credibility with ordinary people everywhere” statement.

    The Danes maybe, they seem to want an EU ref now.

  141. galamcennalath says:

    “The Scottish independence movement … has an internationalist, green, social, forward-looking agenda …. Scottish nationalism is not about believing our country and its people are better than anyone else’s but just the wish to allow ourselves to believe we are at least equal to anyone else.

    British nationalism, the key motivation of the Brexit and Better Together campaigns, is an inward looking, isolationist, superiority driven, aggrieved and small minded retrograde step backwards from the historic journey of humanity towards a world with shared prosperity and values.”

    … yes, in a nutshell. British (Greater English) nationalism has now been laid bare.

    No voters must ask themselves, ‘which vision do I want to be part of?’

  142. cearc says:


    Of course the EU would have one less right wing, obstructive, member government and one more co-operative social democrat government.
    which in itself makes a difference.

  143. Ruby says:

    I’ve always found Eric Joyce’s articles to be an interesting read. I have visited his website in the past and enjoyed reading his articles.

    Kezia on the other hand I do not find interesting and I can’t even be bothered reading anything she has to say.

  144. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    I think you misunderstand my point. I’m not saying that various EU countries will now want their own exitref under pressure from their own far-right crazies, as you seem to be thinking, but rather that the Commission and Parliament will have to shift their emphasis and address the concerns of the individual (reasonable) citizen rather more and corporate business rather less. Simply as a natural democratic response to the new political reality. (Hence eg. my comment about TTIP.)

  145. schrodingers cat says:

    stuc inching towards yes

  146. Vestas says:

    @ cearc

    We’d certainly be less obstructive than England has been but we’d probably be a monumental PITA at (for example) fisheries meetings 🙂 I smile at that but I shouldn’t as it’d be an issue for Spain who could veto any agreement re Scottish EU entry.

    At least the Leave vote has forced the issue. I was thinking that we’d still be sitting here in 2021/22 waiting for indyref2, by which time many of the 2014 “veterans” would have moved on – in physical terms as well as mental.

    If we wait then I doubt we’ll have another chance to hold an indyref, never mind win it.

    Interesting times….

  147. call me dave says:

    Pete Wishart: Says “Interesting”

  148. heedtracker says:

    Despite doing their level best to end Scottish democracy

    Severin Carrell ?@severincarrell 1h1 hour ago
    #Brexit vote brings fresh surge of support for Scottish independence @YesBarGlasgow – @libby_brooks reports

    Sterling now at its lowest level since 1985. Expect a lot of US holiday makers.

  149. Petra says:

    “Though the mills of God grind slowly, yet they grind exceeding small; Though with patience He stands waiting, with exactness grinds He all.”

    Scotexit at 81% now.

    Time to start handing out the incontinence pads …. The Queen, Scottish land owners, Cameron, Osborne, Mundell, Davidson, Tomkins, Brown, Darling, The Burd, Scottish Labour party, Lib-dems, Scottish Tories etc etc etc.

  150. Marco McGinty says:

    For all of those supposed Yessers that were supportive of the Leave campaign, and wouldn’t vote for an independent Scotland within the EU, would it not be better to wait until the Scottish Government proved its worth in negotiations?

    You have to realise that all previous EU negotiations were done by Westminster, with no consideration whatsoever for its Scotland region, so I’m quite sure the SG would try considerably harder to get the best deals possible for its people.

    If, after a period of time, the people of Scotland don’t believe the EU is working for them, there would be a chance of a Scottish In/Out referendum.

    The whole point of independence is that we will have the power to choose things for ourselves, not have opposing views imposed on us by a neighbouring country.

  151. Hamish100 says:


    Leave are a minority in Scotland. Why vote for it?

    For independence the big goal for me is no nuclear weapons in this country. Scotland has to vote YES before we are dragged off with RUK as we are still in the EU. Let’s hope fishing rights can have a priority in the new Scotland. U.K. Did nothing but sell the rights. Surprised you put your trust in the same shysters.

    Do you really believe Johnston gives a shit about west coast fisher folk? You will be run from London.

  152. Marco McGinty says:

    Forgot to mention that regarding IndyRef2, we should stay as far away from 2018 as possible. It was bad enough that the unionists and their media chose to celebrate the start of a war that ended the lives of millions of people, so who knows what they will come up for the end of the war.

    May or June 2017 would do me fine.

  153. galamcennalath says:

    I’m finding it difficult to imagine what Better Together 2 / No Thanks 2, or whatever they call themselves, are going to do and say on behalf of their Union?

    Literally, nothing. What is there to say about the merits of the Union? And, for that matter, what scaremongering about Indy can they push when it’s all already happened in the Union.

    And, they can’t exactly push the No Borders line this time!

  154. heedtracker says:

    BBC r4 teatime news straight with Project Fear 2, pretty thuggish and Déjà vu all at once. BBC Rule Britannia types not exactly enjoying being told to stick their independence but at our terms and pace up their arses, by EU minsters.

  155. Cadogan Enright says:

    Anyone have contact details for the SNP in Mundells constituency?

    Time to start making plans

  156. Old dearie says:

    O/T Watching Scotland v Japan rugby. Well done to the fan who held up an Indyref 2 placard. Genius! Bet we don’t see that on highlight programme.

  157. Cadogan Enright says:

    @Dave 2.35

    iar Presendent Mary MacAleese suggested yesterday that England and Wales could leave EU and NI and ScotLand not – while still part of EU

  158. handclapping says:

    Ruby @ 5:21
    Compromise on the Independent Labour Party?

  159. yesindyref2 says:

    Hehe. Well it looks like Willie Rennie and the LibDems are moving towards a pro-Indy stance, and in any case it is surely certain they’d not oppose Indy Ref 2, which would give the SNP a majority 63 to 60, even if for some odd reason the Green Party opposed it, which I very much doubt.

    Yes, it is clear Scottish Labour should support a YES vote, I’m a bit surprised Dugdale sounded negative about Indy Ref 2, I think she should have held her counsel and watched the coffee grounds. Which are very smelly so I’m told (I drink tea).

  160. SOG says:

    There have been a few mentions above of Spain’s attitude in the EU. Tomorrow, Sunday, there is an election in Spain. Since the Catalans hold common cause with the Scots over their desire for independence, with poverty and high unemployment especially among the young, the result may be a further challenge for the EU.

    I would guess that the Catalans don’t have much in common with Spain’s North Sea fishermen, for a start.

  161. desimond says:


    Just made me think of something there, how would the EU fishing fleets get into Scottish Waters if they have to go through English waters first?


  162. Liz Rannoch says:

    I’m really getting rather worried. Where’s Mr G Osborne? Even the EBC has put out a ‘have you seen this man?’ I thought he wouldn’t be able to wait to put out his ’emergency budget’. Did he have one? Is he making one up as I type? Has he lost his abacus?

    I’m still waiting for an ‘evel’ moment, something on Barnett or a ‘new’ constitution. We may think they’re reeling at the moment, but remember an injured animal is the most dangerous. We have to be ready for anything.

  163. heedtracker says:

    Far right Britnats of the scotland region blame poor old Corbyn, shock. Its not JC’s fault. He’s wanted out for decades.

    euan mccolm ?@euanmccolm 5h5 hours ago
    euan mccolm Retweeted Jeremy Corbyn MP
    there you go. there’s your statesman, labour chums.euan mccolm added,

    Jeremy Corbyn MP @jeremycorbyn
    In my speech on the historic choice made on Thursday I made clear that Labour will bring our country together to meet the challenges we face
    5 retweets 10 likes
    Reply Retweet 5
    Like 10

  164. Ravenholme says:

    I’m afraid to say at least some of the 45% may vote the other way.

    A depressing number of my extended family, previously Yes voters (proudly displaying 45 badges on facebook etc) are aghast that Nicola Sturgeon is wanting a referendum on quitting the UK to go back to the EU.

    Luckily, I suspect the numbers of that particular branch of idiots are so minor as to be outweighed by previous No voters who would rather be members of the EU than a sinking union, but it is unfortunately untrue to say that every individual in the former 45% will vote Yes a second time.

  165. cearc says:

    Liz Rannoch,

    I doubt that GO’s whereabouts are considered teatime listening, maybe after the watershed!

    Is there a government in London anymore?

  166. Tinto Chiel says:

    “This Brexit farce reminds me of film,’The Producers’ who put on a play hoping it would be flop.”

    An acute perception, Marcia. Doesn’t Bojo look crestfallen? Be careful what you wish for, indeed. Who would be the new Tory PM on the Wreck of The Hesperus?

    The FM’s words today, suppressed by BBC, regarding summoning EU consuls for talks shows she has already done the spade work. I would love to hear her conversations with Merkel. Her strategy will be to exclude WM and act like a government in waiting.

    I don’t see why Scotland would have to adopt the Euro. We are in the EU, we will become the successor state once England sails off to very rough seas, and I don’t think the EU will play hard ball on currency. There will be a strong EU feeling to make England pay, and its corollary is being open to Scotland.

    What we need to do is have clear policy on currency. Will it be the pound and a negotiated share of the ND, or a new £Scots and a completely new currency, issued by our national central bank?

    And Eric, your words are welcome but you don’t speak for BLiS, as underlined by Kezia’s feeble words today.

  167. Mick DIAMOND says:

    I think the eu should now be clarifying their position on where they stand with scotland..

  168. Iain More says:

    Well now that we have the bastards on the deck lets stick the boot intae them. Dinnae let them get back up!

  169. call me dave says:

    Some details on earlier news as the footie is a yawn and George Osborne’s hung up the phone:

    Ex-Labour First Minister “very, very attracted” to independence following Brexit “game changer”

    I read the ‘left behind’ copy of ‘Scotland’s Chumpion’ in the cafe early this morning and choked a bit on my empire biscuit when I caught this sentence.

    “Saturday’s edition of the Record, which largely held a pro-Union stance during the 2014 campaign over Scotland’s future,….”


    Daily Record backs second independence referendum after Brexit vote

  170. cearc says:


    International shipping lane through the channel. Hence it being perfectly OK for the Russians to sail their entire navy through, despite what the Brit-Press may say.

    It is probably worth pointing out to fisherman that a Scottish Fishing Minister, who is accessible to them and knows something about the industry would probably do a much better job than a Sir Willy Flossy-Bot (sound chap, went to school with Freddie) has ever done.

    The other EU ministers would probably consider it a great relief not to have to waste time explaining that fish do not actually have fingers to the representative of the EU’s largest fishing grounds.

  171. Gordon says:

    I was a CITIZEN of the European Union. People in another country will strip me of this proud title and leave me a SUBJECT of an outdated fairy tale monarchy ¬– a family living in that foreign land living on the state in unmerited privilege – unless the government of my country acts swiftly to maintain my European citizenship and makes me a Scottish National.
    ‘If t’were done,t’were well it were done quickly’. The Scottish Government should hold a referendum as soon as possible to rid ourselves of this mediaeval parliament in Westminster, where yet more of these untalented, superannuated chiels obtain unwarranted power over the population.
    Even if the European project eventually founders, we will at least be free of the tyranny that is Westminster and we will be able to elect a government that will act in the best interests of the Scottish People free of vested interests and promises of wealth to come.

  172. gus1940 says:

    Uncharacteristic silence from Mone and Sillars.

    Interesting stuff in The Record today – it’s almost as if they are now supporting Independence – but I still won’t trust them as far as I can throw them.

    THey have a vox pop exercise in which nearly all the respondents including several who voted NO on 18/9 say they wil vote YES in REF2.

  173. Valerie says:

    I can hardly rip myself away from the media, things are flying around so fast.

    Bulgaria has embraced any resident Brits, saying they can applying for citizenship. Quite a few settled there, due to cheap property.

    Osborne still posted missing since Wednesday, and BoJo went off to cricket.

    It’s truly a fcking disgrace, but hey, they will have to get on with it. Even the EU bods are meeting and issuing statements.

    Have to agree with Petra.

    BoJo et all put on a clown show of The Producers, thinking it was all a hoot.

    I actually wonder if BoJo might melt away, when the scale of the shit pile dawns. Lots of local Leave groups angry at various promises getting rowed back e.g. immigration.

    It’s not an amicable divorce, but it was never a deep love affair.


  174. SOG says:

    A new post on wee ginger dug explains the Spanish issue much more thoroughly than I did.

  175. cearc says:

    Mick Diamond,

    I’m sure they will but a lot of meetings, discussions and negotiations have to happen first.

    Meantime just look at the EU papers. They pretty well all mock England and talk about Scotland remaining.

  176. davidb says:

    We have council elections next May. We will all be doing the legwork over the winter and spring. The ideal date would be on the same day next May. It would help financially. It would allow both campaigns to be fliered and canvassed at the same time. And it may allay the election fatigue the voters must be getting.

    We have had 4 votes in 21 months.Even I’m getting tired of fighting elections.

  177. Dal Riata says:

    @Brian Doonthetoon

    Cheers my man, that one’s a goer! Just finished watching Wales vs N. Ireland. Pish game, but at least I got to watch it live!


    Your suggestion to set the VPN to a UK server is a good one, and probably correct. I’ll give that a go tomorrow with the site Croompenstein gave me. I’d really like to watch the next game up today, but that’s a 3:00 am kick-off here so it’ll have to be highlights on YouTube tomorrow instead!

  178. stewartb says:

    So we Yessers have not been respecting the democratic result of the 2014 Indyref according to Unionists.

    A majority in the UK having voted only a couple of days ago to leave the EU (not with my support by the way), the result of this democratic result is being challenged. Even though the PM stated voting leave was for ever, we have for example Labour MP David Lammy calling for a Parliamentary vote on the EU referendum result. He is quoted in the press saying: ‘Wake up. We do not have to do this.” “We can stop this madness through a vote in Parliament.” And ‘Our sovereign Parliament needs to now vote on whether we should exit the EU.” “The referendum was an advisory, non-binding referendum.” Who needs democracy in this UK, the bestest of the best democratic nation states in the world?

    At least, the SNP waited a wee while and for a ‘material change’ before moving on Indyref2!

  179. asklair says:

    What happens if there is a u turn about UK leaving the EU.

  180. Glamaig says:

    just a thought – the EU may see supporting Scotland as a way of discouraging other EU states from holding referendums. Who would be stupid enough to hold a referendum that might lead to the break-up of their country? Apart from the obvious of course…

  181. Breeks says:

    I dunno. You wait 300 years for a referendum, then three come along all at once. Sigh.

    Things are moving so fast I feel like changing the “Are you YES yet?” to “Are we independent yet?”… And I’m only half joking.

  182. Croompenstein says:

    What happens if there is a u turn about UK leaving the EU

    Go and have a wee lie doon..

  183. Jim McIntosh says:

    BBC still at it.

    Just heard Sarah Smith saying Independence will now be more complicated because ” Brexit raises all sort of new questions about currency and border controls”. She even said it with a straight face.

    deja-vu anyone?

  184. heedtracker says:

    desimond says:
    25 June, 2016 at 6:44 pm

    If they do give control of fishing back to fishermen, they’ll empty the seas completely. Iceland had to go to war to stop destroying Icelandic fish stocks. Actually the UK gov just compensated the UK fishing fleet that were blocked in the Cod Wars not that long ago.

  185. Croompenstein says:

    @Jim –

    She even said it with a straight face

    She doesn’t have a straight face Jim she’s bent as a nine bob note. I also heard her refer to the FM as ‘Sturgeon’ the cheeky cow..

  186. DerekM says:

    Nice of you to drop in Eric though i think you might find that there will be no olive branch held out to Labour from us ,not with the shower of liars running it,unless there is a complete change off personel Labour in Scotland are finished.

    And could people stop replying to yes buts they are kippers.
    No indy yesser unless really fucking stupid would consider staying in the UK over the EU.

  187. mike cassidy says:

    Can I just throw again into the mix the implications for Scotland if a general election is called before the end of the year.

    Setting aside its no doubt hefty contribution to voter fatigue –

    Could the SNP use it as a potential mandate for what they are saying now?

    Are 56 seats a realistic target again?

    All the seats!

  188. yesindyref2 says:

    1. In straits referred to in article 37, all ships and aircraft enjoy the right of transit passage, which shall not be impeded; except that, if the strait is formed by an island of a State bordering the strait and its mainland, transit passage shall not apply if there exists seaward of the island a route through the high seas or through an exclusive economic zone of similar convenience with respect to navigational and hydrographical characteristics.

    2. Transit passage means the exercise in accordance with this Part of the freedom of navigation and overflight solely for the purpose of continuous and expeditious transit of the strait between one part of the high seas or an exclusive economic zone and another part of the high seas or an exclusive economic zone. However, the requirement of continuous and expeditious transit does not preclude passage through the strait for the purpose of entering, leaving or returning from a State bordering the strait, subject to the conditions of entry to that State.

    3. Any activity which is not an exercise of the right of transit passage through a strait remains subject to the other applicable provisions of this Convention.

  189. scott riach says:

    i like the point i read on twitter earlier, can you imagine the amount of big business wanting to locate offices in scotland after #indyref2 so they can use the free market? we would benefit from corporation tax and vat

  190. galamcennalath says:

    Henry McLeish has come out for Indy

  191. Legerwood says:

    Better to go as quickly as possible while the Unionists are in disarray.

    May 2017. Defer Council Elections for 6 months and go in May.

    Strike while the iron is hot.

  192. Glamaig says:

    mike cassidy says:
    25 June, 2016 at 7:41 pm
    Can I just throw again into the mix the implications for Scotland if a general election is called before the end of the year.

    Setting aside its no doubt hefty contribution to voter fatigue –

    Could the SNP use it as a potential mandate for what they are saying now?

    Are 56 seats a realistic target again?

    According to Thatcher 50% of the seats was enough for independence… Westminster didnt want PR, so they can suck it up 🙂

    All the seats!

  193. yesindyref2 says:

    Oh yeah, it’s a good myth about the RN taking 2 days to see off the Kuznetzov in the international waters of the Moray Firth with a frigate, a good laugh, but the reality is this:

    2. Ships in transit passage shall:

    (b) comply with generally accepted international regulations, procedures and practices for the prevention, reduction and control of pollution from ships.”

    Russian sailors were seen tipping galley gash overboard, Angus Robertson complained, the RN sent a frigate to observe. And then to provide an “escort” around North Britain (couldn’t resist that), until the Russians were safely on their way to the med.

    iScotland would also have a duty to police its EEZ for safety and pollution, and marine conservation where applicable – or face losing the EEZ.

  194. Smallaxe says:

    Cadogan Enright,Sir I am a founding member of the SNP in Mundell’s constituency, The person you should talk to is
    Henry McClelland,you will find him on the SNP Facebook page
    under the Annan branch.

    Sorry I can’t do more to help as I don’t do Facebook. Peace.

  195. yesindyref2 says:

    @DerekM: “Nice of you to drop in Eric though i think you might find that there will be no olive branch held out to Labour from us

    You’re not speaking for me Derek, I’ll be delighted if Labour change their minds and back Independence for Scotland, and will happily support anyone in the Labour party campaigning for a YES vote in Indy Ref 2.

  196. scotspine says:

    Just heard some arrogant prick in London being interviewed by John Boulton referring to Scotland as a REGION of the UK and not being particularly affluent. No wonder, You have sucked us dry CUNT.

  197. Brian McHugh says:

    Comment of the year…
    :Breeks says:
    25 June, 2016 at 7:30 pm
    I dunno. You wait 300 years for a referendum, then three come along all at once.”


  198. Craig P says:

    Scotspine, not sure where he got that from but it is wrong. Scotland is the third richest area of the UK after London and the SE.

  199. Cadogan Enright says:

    @smallaxe 7.54

    Grand. See you there then in November maybe?

  200. DAvid Winpenny says:

    Next Referendum Question should be
    “Do you wish to remain in the EU as an Independent Country”

  201. yesindyref2 says:

    @Craig P
    Yes, and I did see one claim it was second only to London, on some basis.

  202. Flying Scotsman says:

    Martin Richmond says:

    25 June, 2016 at 3:32 pm

    “Eric Joyce is the former Labour MP for Falkirk.”

    You forgot… In two separate years the Westminster MP who claimed the highest level of expenses and a violent criminal. Context.

    I think that’s a bit harsh.
    Assaulting a tory mp would see me classify him as ‘bit of a character’.
    Eric is no longer a labour man and should be welcomed by such an inclusive movement as ours.
    Its time for us all to come together for the sake of everyone in Scotland.

    Welcome Eric, I, for one, am glad to have you alongside.

  203. call me dave says:

    Sky: Does A Leave Vote Definitely Mean A Brexit?

  204. DerekM says:

    Sorry yesindyref2 as old Labour and LFI i would not trust the red tories as far as i could fling them.

    And them coming out for indy now is just them trying to save their careers.

    I will welcome any ex labour voter to the yes side but certain red tory politicians i draw the line at.

    I would like to see us take back Scottish labour but while it is controlled from the HoL that is impossible.

  205. Cal says:

    If I was a Brexit Tory, Labour or DUP mp I would block any move for another General Election because there would be a danger of another EU referendum being held. Also, although for different reasons,if I was a SNP mp I’d also block it. They have 56 out of 59 mps – they would be unlikely to better that. And, since the Fixed Term Parliaments Act 2011 requires that 2/3 of mps would need to back the call for a new ge for it to happen, it aint going to happen. Short of some kind of military coup, I don’t see how it can happen.

  206. Simon Curran says:

    Anyone know who to write to/email within the EU? It seems to me that you can make a good case that contrary to the democratic will of the voters of Scotland that they are being ripped out and denied their rights as EU citizens. And all this because they were lied to in a previous referendum when Unionist politicians said the only way they could still be in the EU was to reject independence. Is there any mileage in asking the EU to protect our rights?

  207. defo says:

    The burning question.

    Is Grahamski Yes yet Eric ?

  208. Iain More says:

    GE isn’t going to happen not with the Brit Nat Tory and Labour Parties tearing lumps out of each other. They aren’t going to get the two third of votes needed to have one.

  209. ann says:

    “The other EU ministers would probably consider it a great relief not to have to waste time explaining that fish do not actually have fingers to the representative of the EU’s largest fishing grounds.”


  210. DerekM says:

    And anyway why would we want a shower of liars running about inside the indy movement making shit up as they go along.

    How will you feel when Jaba comes on TV and tells a big whopper that we have to then tell the people she just made it all up.

    We all know how they operate they cant stop making up bollocks,i want none of that in indyref2 we will have enough on our plate without having to look over our shoulder to make sure the red tories are not trying to drive a political agenda through the indy movement.

    Just my opinion

  211. Robert Louis says:

    Folks talking about elections at Westminster, note:

    The fixed term parliaments act determines the date of the next general election at Westminster. The exceptions are:

    Section 2 of the Act also provides for two ways in which a general election can be held before the end of this five-year period:

    If the House of Commons resolves “That this House has no confidence in Her Majesty’s Government”, an early general election is held, unless the House of Commons subsequently resolves “That this House has confidence in Her Majesty’s Government”. This second resolution must be made within fourteen days of the first.

    If the House of Commons, with the support of two-thirds of its total membership (including vacant seats), resolves “That there shall be an early parliamentary general election”.

    In either of these two cases, the Monarch (on the recommendation of the prime minister) appoints the date of the new election by proclamation. Parliament is then dissolved 25 working days before that date.

    Source :

    In other words, an early election is extremely unlikely, unless the Tories vote with a no confidence motion in their own government.

  212. yesindyref2 says:

    It’d be quite amusing if London held a snap referendum on Independence, became independent and stayed in the EU, and MPs for the rUK Parliament had to apply for work permits, and show their passports at the border as they went to debate in the House of Commons. I wonder what their tax status would be?

    Still, at least the Bank of England would be in the EU. That would be tricky, it would come under EU banking regulations.

  213. Marconatrix says:

    Eric isn’t in Labour any more.

    Neither is Scotland.

    Not yet but her time will no be lang … the pregnancy looks healthy. Remembering the wake that followed indy ref I, are we no due a ¨happy event¨ this time around?

  214. Smallaxe says:

    @Cadogan Enright, I would love to be able to meet yourself and all other Wingers but unfortunately I am fighting two different types of cancer one incurable.This site and you and
    all the others are my personal chemo,I am certain that the Rev
    all others are giving me more time to hopefully see our Country free. Peace to you and yours. Billy.

  215. defo says:

    heedtracker says: at 2:07 pm
    “Scotland will provide a safe haven,a sanctuary from the insanity of Brexit,let’s do it.”

    “Indyref 2

    This looks like classic railroading…”

    Yes heeds, but who’s doing the railroading mate ?
    Thinking from an EU perspective, England needs to be seen to pay a price for Leave. Examples need to be made.
    Rules are being written as we speak, so as that (ex) constituent states of seceding member nations are treated as existing members.
    The message won’t be long in coming from Brussels and the big players, and then it really is game over.

    Spain? Irrelevant, above accepted and coming to pass.
    Spain will play realpolitik, as and when they are told to.

    Strangely (not), it seems that the decision/done deal to renew Trident has been pushed back.

  216. call me dave says:

    Fraser Nelson:
    Brexit: A Very British Revolution

  217. TD says:

    Robert Louis at 8:51 p.m.

    I don’t understand your concluding sentence. Why can’t the Tories just go for the second type of resolution? If they do that, they just need to table the motion that “there shall be an early parliamentary general election”. Labour (and the SNP) then have to decide to oppose the motion, support it or abstain. If they oppose it or abstain, they are open to the accusation of running scared. So they would probably support it. In Labour’s case, that would be electoral suicide – but what else could they do? I think the motion would be carried with the required 2/3rds majority and the Tories would avoid having to table a motion of no confidence in their own government.

    Of course whether the Tories want an election is another matter, but if they decide they do, then I cannot see any obstacle to them having one.

  218. One_Scot says:

    All joking aside, does anyone know what John MacIntyre OB1 Kenobis take on all this is.

  219. Macart says:


    You hang in there.

    We’re all working on it. 🙂

  220. Albaman says:

    What goes around, comes around !,
    In Dunfermline high street today, “time-shift”, a yes independent marquee, only this time it was a “yes 2” one , happy days eh.

  221. Dr Jim says:

    There is another route and you’ll find that out on Tuesday
    Also I’m very glad the FM is taking MY advice and not listening to anybody’s advice including mine but smiling nicely and nodding politely and then doing what she’s had planned all along

    After Independence there’ll have to be another election
    So sure we’ll let the SNP do all the work and let Labour into Holyrood, can I just say whit planet ur you oan sir

  222. cearc says:

    Perhaps you should be getting together with the likes of McCleish and Chisholm about forming a new labour party of some sort.

    Quite frankly the blairite dregs of Slab are not worth bothering about, they have no credibilty.

    Glad to see you’re blogging more again.

  223. dakk says:

    @ Colken. 3.15

    Regarding Westminster protecting your families fishing livelihoods.Dream on.

    Bojo’s or any other UK leader would horse trade Scotland’s fisheries for lower trade tariffs for England/Britain,or any other concession that suited England.

    Such is the history of England’s exploitation of Scotland’s resources.

  224. Marco McGinty says:

    @Jim McIntosh
    Just heard Sarah Smith saying Independence will now be more complicated because ” Brexit raises all sort of new questions about currency and border controls”.

    Aye, the same old regurgitated lies. If there is a need for border controls when Scotland becomes independent, then could any of the unionists and their “impartial” media please explain why the Irish question hasn’t been brought up? The Republic is in the EU, and the north has just been dragged out against the wishes of the majority of its voters, yet the BBC hasn’t suggested the reinstatement of border controls in Ireland.

    Funny that!

  225. Valerie says:

    The Remain voters down south are frantic. I always like to keep an eye on what’s happening.

    Paul Mason the economist, in frantic mode. Have to say where were they? Hoping SNP will be a crutch.

  226. Ron says:

    I see people are talking openly about UDI. That really would be opening Pandora’s Box and there is no way the Scottish Government would ever even consider it.

  227. Ruby says:

    Der englische Patient

  228. Robert mcdonald says:

    What happens if the uk doesn’t sign up for the section 50? Anybody know if EU can force Brexiteers hand?

  229. Smallaxe says:

    @ Macart, Thank you for your kindness it is much appreciated.

    Ps. No matter how big the tree it only takes one small axe to bring it down. 🙂

  230. Ruby says:

    defo says:
    25 June, 2016 at 8:42 pm

    The burning question.

    Is Grahamski Yes yet Eric ?

    Ruby replies

    I can hardly type I’m laughing so much.

  231. K1 says:

    Ditto Macart to Smallaxe…we’re going to do it, hang on in there. 😉

  232. Kevin Evans says:

    I watched a documentary a few years back explaining how important the cathedral in glasgow was to Scottish sovereignty as it allowed the bishop of glasgow straight access to the Vatican without needing to go through London.

    Isn’t that basically what Nicola has done today by going directly to Brussels?

  233. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Something just struck me – with London voting overwhelmingly for Remain, what might our friend The Rembrancer of the City of London have to say about the current situation.

  234. maxxmacc says:

    I work with a few ‘No’ voters and on Friday morning they were all of a view that the rug had been pulled from under them, and that if there was another Scottish vote they would switch to ‘Yes’. If Nicola can sound out Brussels and Washington, and get a positive response, then it’s just a matter of time!

  235. Ruby says:

    What is so terrible about border controls?

    Are the ‘Little Britons’ worried because they know they are shite at controlling border? Worried because they know they are going to be very busy when ‘Little Britain’s’ border is moved out of Calais and back to Dover?

  236. Smallaxe says:

    @ K1, thanks,I have always enjoyed your informative and intelligent posts. Peace & Love from this old hippie. 🙂

  237. laukat says:

    Sunday post is running a headline tomorrow showing 59% Yes

  238. call me dave says:

    Sunday Post tomorrow. not quite 60% 🙁 Sturgeon will hold back.

    Glen Campbell the man from Auntie, puffing up McDougal:

    Too many risks with independence is his message… Aye right! 🙂

    Footie is dire…init!

  239. Inkall says:

    Had a wee chuckle reading some of Ian Smart’s twitter.

    His posts of “looking forward to seeing Nats and UKIP fight over the number 45” just before it all came crashing down around him.

    Now we have him taking about how awful it is that a supposed 36% of SNP supporters voted Leave (quietly ignoring the 37% of Labour supporters given in the same graph).

  240. cearc says:


    hang on in there, not long to wait methinks.

    59% Yes in Sunday post. So just a matter of doing the EU negotiations.

    SG are doing it just right. Act like a sovereign nation and we will be accepted as such. What Little Britain wants is no longer of any consequence.

  241. Capella says:

    If Remain voters in England are casting about for who’s to blame for this outbreak of British chauvinism, they could start with the endless BBC stream of Great British everything and “our war” WW1 and WW2 programmes.

    Since the SNP won power in Holyrood in 2007 the output of programmes with “British” in the title skyrocketed. It could explain why British Nationalism today is of the “blood and soil” variety. Maybe they should’ve had a few Great European bake offs from Munchen Gladbach.

  242. FergusMac says:

    Kevin, Scotland has always had a separate Catholic hierarchy from England. When the barriers to the Catholic Church were removed in the 19th Century, two separate hierarchies were restored, reflecting the fact that the two countries were independent of each other at the time of their Reformations in the 16th Century. The Catholic Church has always considered Scotland to be a separate entity from England.

    The senior RC Cleric in Scotland, usually a Cardinal Archbishop, has always had direct access to the Vatican, without going through England, Germany, Ireland or anywhere else. He is in exactly the same position as his counterpart in Canterbury (pre-Reformation) or Westminster (post-Restoration).

  243. Rock says:

    Membership of the EU is not the overriding issue.

    Independence for Scotland is.

    The EU will want Scotland more than Scotland wants the EU.

    Scotland is in a very strong position right now.

    Nicola should get a written statement from the EU that if Scotland votes for independence, Scotland can be a full member from day 1, with the same arrangements as present regarding currency, Schengen etc, IF Scotland wants to be a member from day 1.

    The independence referendum questions should then be:

    Should Scotland become independent?

    If Yes,

    Should Scotland continue as a member of the EU, or

    Should Scotland leave the EU?

    If the vote is for independence outside the EU, we can leave the UK on the same day as the UK (including Scotland) leaves the EU.

    We should not wait for the outcome of the Tory civil war down south.

    The independence referendum should be held before Cameron’s successor takes over.

    All the issues have been already extensively debated during the last campaign and the Wee Black Book exposing Project Fear’s lies is very conveniently fresh off the Press to be delivered to every household in Scotland.

    Strike while the iron is hot.

  244. Grinder 45 says:

    During IndyRef1, business leaders within Scotland argued that a No vote guaranteed that their business would continue to have free access to the EU markets. That seemed to be the least risky option at the time.

    Meanwhile, voters could passively vote No to remain within the EU after IndyRef1, albeit shortlived due to the UK govt’s denials about any impending EU referendum. A vote for Yes would tear them out of the EU, according to the #BetterTogether mantra.

    These arguments are now reversed, in that business leaders in Scotland would now need change, in order to retain their access to EU after the UK exits and that would suggest that they would be more positive towards independence as the first step.
    It is even likely that other businesses and financial institutions would relocate to Scotland to retain/regain their access to the EU markets.

    Add to that, the 74% support in Edinburgh for Remain and there could even be a wind of change blowing through Edinburgh voters that gravitates them towards a Yes vote, second time around, to retain their EU citizenship.

  245. Robert Peffers says:

    @Thomas Hefferin says: 25 June, 2016 at 2:05 pm:

    “I really don’t think we’re going to see the 60% mark broken next week.”

    You are entitled to hold any opinion you wish, Thomas, but that doesn’t make it correct – unless you can offer evidence to prove your point.

    “When people really start to feel the effects of Brexit on their daily lives, then and only then will the time be right to push for IndyRef_2.”

    Again you are entitled to hold that opinion and again it remains an opinion until evidence is offered.

    “There is also still the question of currency – That question needs to be clearly and emphatically resolved beforehand, otherwise all we’re doing is re-running IndyRef_1. Same arguments – same outcome.”

    Nope! The First Minister of Scotland has already stated that Scotland will use her own currency and that currency is, as it always has been since ever there was a Uniting of the only two Kingdoms extant in 1706/7.

    Scotland’s currency is the Pound Sterling and Scotland needs no one’s permission to use it. Even if it had not been legally agreed as such in the bi-partite Treaty of Union, no one can stop anyone using an International Trading Currency.

    What has not been agreed is if Scotland would be wise to enter into a currency union with the three country Kingdom of England – which is legally what England, Wales and Northern Ireland will become if the bi-partite United Kingdom disunites.

    As a Kingdom of England, without Scotland and perhaps Northern Ireland, and out of the EU would be in a very, very precarious financial set-up a currency union could cause a Scottish Sterling zone some grief.

    ” … A Scottish economy that would, for the first time ever, benefit from her full North Sea oil & gas revenues, (they ALL go to Westminster at present), and we get nothing of then back directly then even a low priced North Sea revenue would be a benefit to Scotland. Between that an Scotland’s great balance of trade, higher per capita GDP and her great renewable energy resources would assure Scotland a strong currency but such a currency has its own drawbacks as the English Pound would be badly stressed by a strong Scottish pound.

    I think it’s right that the Scottish government prepares for that day, but patience is needed if we really want to overturn the decision made in 2014.

  246. Iain More says:

    So a nasty tawdry Brit Nat rag is headlining a poll showing 59% Yes only.

  247. Laukat says:

    Its better than I thought 59Y/32N according to james kelly

  248. call me dave says:

    Sign the pledge?

  249. Kevin Evans says:

    No Fergus am talking 1100 not the 1800 – Scotland having direct accesses to the Vatican allowed the declaration of Arbroath to be the legal sovereign document it still is today.

  250. Thepnr says:

    65% excluding DK’s is truely astonishing. I’m too scared to believe it!

  251. HandandShrimp says:

    If it is 59% Yes 32% No there must be 9% Don’t Know which gives a 65% 35% split in favour of Yes.

    That is a game changer

  252. Another Union Dividend says:

    Brexit has changed everything. Whilst some Brit Nats will never vote for a modern progressive Scotland, if Nicola can get EU assurances that a Yes vote will mean automatic EU membership whilst retaining our choice of currency then we will skoosh the next Independence Referendum.

    In the meantime we must build bridges and not demonise Labour voters or English settlers or Rangers supporters etc as the prize is within our grasp.

    I have lost count of No voter friends who will now vote Yes and to those who remain opposed to the EU I would say that once we have independence you can still argue for withdrawal if the terms and conditions are unsatisfactory.

  253. DerekM says:

    The Sunday post thats it i must have been transported to another dimension lol

  254. Robert Peffers says:

    @Ruby says: 25 June, 2016 at 9:37 pm :

    ” … Are the ‘Little Britons’ worried because they know they are shite at controlling border? Worried because they know they are going to be very busy when ‘Little Britain’s’ border is moved out of Calais and back to Dover?”

    Dunno about the Little Britons, Ruby, I’m only 5’4″ and I’m a Briton. Born in Scotland and last time I looked Scotland was still a part of the British Isles.

    About the Little Englanders, though – I’m sure they expected to have their border guards chased out of Calais.

    What really worries them is that the border at the other end will suddenly shift south. What’s more many of them are so thick they think the Scottish/English border is Hadrian’s wall. Some even do not realise that when Hadrian built his wall there was no such country as England and what Hadrian was doing was to stop smuggling as the Roman Empire operated a customs an excise system.

    That Scotland/England border is a damned site more difficult to guard than a bit of coastline.

    Then, of course the border with the Republic of Ireland might also suddenly shift nearer London too. England and Wales will begin to seem much like North Korea and Boris like a blond version of Kim Jong-un.

    I’m laughing my socks off just now while reading the News. The Little Englanders are signing a petition in their millions wanting Westminster to hold a second EU Referendum. Yet some are still claiming that Nicola Sturgeon cannot have permission to hold a second Indyref.

    Far as I can see their Brexit is the settled will of the people of England and Wales but now they want a neverendum.

    You couldn’t honestly make it all up.

  255. call me dave says:

    For those with popcorn left.

    On Pienaar’s Politics tomorrow from 10am:

    @LiamFoxMP, Theresa Villiers, @NicolaSturgeon, @johnmcdonnellMP, @lisanandy and @TristramHuntMP.

    What! No George Osborne… shurley shome mishtake he’s in charge of Cameron’s piggy bank!

  256. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Socrates McSporran (9.34) –

    re ‘The Remembrancer’ –

    Aye, was thinking the same earlier.

    If he nudges Bercow and says ‘Oi, guvnr, there’s been a bit of hoky-poky in the voting so The City has asked me to tell you they’d quite like an inquiry into possible jiggery-pokery in the postals’ or suchlike…

    Could such a move render the result invalid until such an inquiry was held? And if it did just happen to find even the totiest wee bit of malarkey, might that be used as an excuse to have a re-run?

  257. Robert Peffers says:

    @Another Union Dividend says: 25 June, 2016 at 10:07 pm

    ” … In the meantime we must build bridges and not demonise Labour voters or English settlers or Rangers supporters

    WHIT! Not demonise Rangers supporters?

    Yer kiddin?


    But! But! But! They want us to demonise them – it’s their raison dêtre. Ye canna tak thir hale life awa frae thaim.

  258. Smallaxe says:

    @cearc,Thank you,59% is really great news, as I said earlier more wings chemo for me,bugger doctor’s advice for tonight,I am going to have a glass of my favourite tipple,Reme
    Martin Cognac to toast all Wingers for their support:-) Peace.

  259. Capella says:

    Actually, “Great European Railways” could have had some interesting content since they do have great railways there!

  260. Graeme Doig says:

    English acquaintance, been in Scotland a good few years but British Nat “no” voter to the core has announced on Facebook that he would now vote YES.

    Things are moving fast.

    Don’t think Nicola will make any moves until she has all her ducks in a row.

  261. Capella says:

    Good poster for these febrile days…

  262. K1 says:

    That’s a kind thing to say Smallaxe…people’ll be thinking you’re me posting as you…raises glass to you (from this hippie soul) 🙂

  263. K1 says:

    Saw that yesterday or earlier today Capella…laughed out loud…briliant!

  264. Elmac says:

    The Sunday Post poll underlines a seismic shift in Scotland. Many people who were brainwashed into believing that independence was a journey to hell must now think that, following Brexit, they are halfway to hell already so they might as well see it through to the end.

    The Brexit vote lays bare a brazen lie on the security of Scotland’s continued membership of the EU. They should now be wondering what other lies they were told in the run up to September 2014.

  265. Marie Clark says:

    Cheers smallaxe, hope you enjoy your cognac.

    As others have said, hang on in there, it looks as though the road might be shorter than we thought.

    Look efter yersel ma frien.

  266. Brian McHugh says:

    Slàinte mhath Smallaxe. 🙂

  267. stewartb says:

    Author Philip Pullman in The Guardian on 25th June writing about the UK post-EU referendum result states:

    “… , if we had a properly thought-out constitution instead of a cobwebbed, rotten, diseased and decaying mess of a patched-up, cobbled-together, bloated, corrupted, leaking and stinking hulk, we wouldn’t have come to this point anyway. We desperately need fundamental change. But who can bring us that now?”

    He paints an attractive picture of this bested of the best Union in the history of the world does he not!

    But we have an answer to his question in Scotland. The rest of the UK needs to work on its own solution – its not easy, takes time, commitment and hard work by the people, not just the politicians. And I sincerely wish them well. We also know we have some more work to do.

    To those that voted yes in 2014 but could yet be persuaded by ‘devomax’, and to those that now seem to suggest they might vote no in an Indyref2 if ‘yes’ meant Scotland still in the EU, then they should ponder Pullman’s description, and then add in some other factors regarding Scotland’s current place in the UK: Trident; unelected House of Lords; UK foreign policy and military interventions; first-past-the-post electoral system; getting governments we don’t vote for; statistics on how rarely the votes of Scottish MPs have an impact on House of Commons’ divisions; all the amendments to the Scotland Bill that were rejected out of hand; EVEL; lack of Westminster concern for our industries etc.

    We must not fragment the Yes vote now when we are so close – if not now then when?

    Let’s get independence and then have a robust but respectful, inclusive debate within Scotland about how best to use it, in the EU or outside.

  268. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Another Union Dividend, Robert Peffers:

    Anent Ra Peepul, I can just hear it, rigning round Ibrox: “Someone likes us, and we care”. Being nice to them would do in their tiny minds.

  269. Meg merrilees says:

    Online poll in the Sunday Herald has “Leave the UK” on 80% ( 34,307); “Stay” 17% ( 7135) and DK’s 3% (1269). Published in the paper tomorrow.

  270. Colin West says:

    With reference to the Fixed Term Parliaments Act, wouldn’t the easiest route to an early election for the Tories be if they just repealed the act? If they did that it’d go back to how it was before the Act with a 5 Year Maximum term and the timing of a General Election effectively being up to the Prime Minister.

  271. call me dave says:


    🙂 A bit unlike the FM surely. But it’s funny.

    As for the Sunday Post. I’d like to be a flea on the wall in a certain hoose in Oban when my Bretrix Lib/Dem parents in-law see the front page.

  272. Smallaxe says:

    @ K1, Slange man Peace & Love and fuck the “Man”

  273. Valerie says:

    There are liars, then there is Boris and Gove

    Great piece by Nick Cohen, gutting them

  274. cearc says:


    That Pullman laddie certainly has a way with words!

  275. ann says:

    It would be interesting to see how many of the 1.5+ million signatories on the petition are genuine and how many are taking the proverbial p**s out of it.

    Don’t see the 60% rule being permitted.

    If ever this was agreed, then the same would have to apply to our Referendum in 2014.

    People can’t have it both ways.

  276. cearc says:

    Sunday Herald twitter feed.

    Results of Sunday Herald #indyref2 poll: 80% (34,307) leave UK, 17% (7135) stay, 3% (1269) don’t know. Full report in tomorrow’s paper.

    Big sample there.

  277. Brian Powell says:

    This is not mine but from the comments section on a Guardian article, apparently. It is an interesting view on why the Leave leaders having difficulties taking the next step. We’ll see.

    “If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.
    Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.
    With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.
    Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.
    And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten … the list grew and grew.
    The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.
    The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?
    Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?
    Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.
    If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over – Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession … broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.
    The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.
    When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was “never”. When Michael Gove went on and on about “informal negotiations” … why? why not the formal ones straight away? … he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.
    All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.”

  278. Cadogan Enright says:

    @smallaxe 9.00 Grá agus Beannachtaí Dé agus meas na gcomrádaithe ort

  279. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Socrates MacSporran –

    Hardened veteran political analysts are struggling to work out the implications of what’s just happened – it’s going to take ‘Ra Peepul’ just a smidgin longer than most to do so before they can set about composing new songs.

    In any event, it’ll be interesting to see the banners on-show in Ibrox when the next Scottish football season opens…

  280. otherdemons says:

    Talking of “incomers” – that’s a huge majority of the EU citizens who get a vote in Scottish elections but not UK ones. There has to be a huge swing from those who voted No last time and I would also expect many more will make sure they’re on the electoral roll. Not a huge demographics, but it could mean 150k yes votes.

    I can’t remember who I saw it from on Twitter this week, but something along the lines of ‘polls? did anyone bother checking the mood in Mecca bingo halls instead?’ – and I have to admit to playing online bingo sometimes and it could be spot on. I was in a busy room last night, and from England it was overwhelmingly Brexit, some folks genuinely believing things couldn’t get any worse, some others downright nasty, and even a few who love Trump (and Farage and Boris)! Beggars belief, I know. I’ve barely seen anyone from Scotland pro Brexit, a majority definitely pro Indy, and everyone is definitely better informed: I even saw someone mention Scotland’s exports compared to England’s! But mostly I don’t think I’ve seen a single ignorant comment. Maybe just a small sample but when I see even the bingo crowd sounds pro Indy and well informed, I’m reconsidering my previous position of caution as to when Indyref 2 happens.

  281. Elmac says:

    We are probably talking of indyref2 in 2018 at the earliest. Bar a rerun of Brexit. (once in a generation ?) we will be riding a wave for a few weeks at least. Support will soar but the insidious lies and corrupt propapaganda of the MSM will kick in and the wave will ebb. Before 2018 we need a breach in the dam – at least one big circulation daily to find a moral conscience and start to print the truth. Only then will the tide turn and independence become the tsunami it should be on the basis of the facts.

    To some extent it is pie in the sky as the press do not have a moral conscience but they do have a commercial one and surely they must wake up now to the inevitability of scottish independence. Do they want to sell papers in the new Scotland? Better have a rethink now.

    As regards the broadcasters. I recall that the BBC were dragged before the Scottish Parliament some time ago to defend their “service” in Scotland. Why can this not be done on a regular basis? Can the Scottish Government bring forward legislation that would give them similar powers to require other broadcasters to justify their output on political matters as being fair and balanced where evidence of extreme bias and lying is there for all to see?

  282. call me dave says:

    Ha Ha!
    Not going well on radio 5 as a Irish spoken guy living in England calls in to say he’s applied for an republic of Ireland passport and added his strong support for Sturgeon and Scottish independence.

    Then a Scot comes on to say Indy 2 is going to happen soon,independence will occur… oops cue music, time for the news cut off with the presenter saying “some people will say you’ve had your vote…the News!

    We Scots always get put on as the news is due.
    Funny old world init!

    Rumour Mill has it that G. Osborne is quietly garnering support for the top job says another caller.

  283. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Isabel Oakeshott (Cameron’s ‘unofficial’ biographer…Pig-gate etc) is on FiveLive right now, saying that Osborne is AWOL because he’s canvassing support for a leadership bid.

    She says herself it may just be WM rumour-mill stuff, but she’s heard the same thing from two entirely separate sources.

  284. Gary45% says:

    Anyone else think Westminster will overturn the Brexit Result?
    Wednesday next week Brenda will have to calm the Xenophobes, Engerland will be close to anarchy.
    Its great being Scottish, even when the mood is chaos we still rise above it and have a laugh.
    Indy Ref 2 Gunderson.

  285. cearc says:


    A good piece that. Of course the real question is, where the hell are the UK government? They all seem to have gone AWOL.

    Brian Powell,

    I guess that commentator hadn’t seen,

    ‘In an effort to put pressure to the British government to act rapidly, parliament’s party leaders also made clear that any new relationship between the UK and the EU “may not be agreed before the conclusion of the withdrawal agreement”.

  286. James Barr Gardner says:

    Why be rushed into IndyRef 2, who would benifit most from this decision? I’am with Nicola on whatever she and the Scottish Government decide.

    Personally I would like to get the Local Elections out of the way next June before Scotland contemplates an Indy Ref2.

    Scotland will have it’s independence, it’s long overdue but now that it’s citizens are now politically informed independence is now a certainty.

    The Tories have ensured that We will have a Independent Scotland due to their close ties to the banking industry.

    Remember folks its either about oil or banking and fuck all about citizens rights, they treat us as a colony, a cash cow. Well that day has passed, We will be a free Country.

  287. Valerie says:

    @Brian Powell

    That is a good comment, but you should read it with the piece I posted in a tinyurl link, just above yours, as it also makes sense, as to Boris’s character, of which I’ve read elsewhere.

    These are truly historic times, men selling a country down the river for a jape. Whipping up racist fervour, scaring EU residents etc.

    One clear thing is emerging. Leave had no plans made. Remain had no plans for the event of losing – hence the headline tomorrow by Cameron, why should I do the hard shit.

    The only group who not only planned for this event, but laid out pathways, months ago – SNP.

  288. Chang Sha says:

    @Dal Riata

    I use First Row Sports ~ very good but infested with ads ~ however these can be blocked

    My browser {Firefox / Palemoon} has Adblock Plus, Ghostery & NoScript installed & it works fine

  289. Cadogan Enright says:

    BBC Newsnight ran a special programme on implications of Brexit tonight

    Scotland not mentioned!

    BBC news commentator on afterwards banging on about non-EU England having to impose customs and visa checks on an E U Scotland and why this will pose a problem for Nicola in convincing Scottish voters

    Same news program last night was full of reassurances on how this could never happen to the boarder with the Republic ‘coz of long standing common travel arrangements

    Just letting u guys know before calling BBC complaints

    Seems to me that Nichola can ruthlessly use Republic to explode this nonsense propaganda

    If any rubbish like this is put to a senior SNP spokesperson, all they have to say is “are you suggesting that this will be the arrangement on the boarder with the Irish Republic? Britains 5th largest trading partner?”

  290. ann says:

    Valerie, Have to agree with you on Nick’s piece.

    I find it hard to believe that so many were duped by Johnston, Farage, Gove et al and could not believe my ears when someone stated that “There was no plan “B”, and to think the media and opposition harassed the SNP non stop about the same thing.

    I honestly don’t think that “Leave” really thought that they would ever have won the referendum and are I think quite honestly in shock, and I believe the vote Leave electorate are same and are now wondering what they have done.

    Also I feel at the end of the day was “What side did people fear most”.

    After all both sides were totally running with fear, fear fear.

    To me, like in the Scottish Referendum they disgracefully targeted and played the older generation, yet this is the very same generation that have spent most of their adult lives as members of the EU from it’s inception.

  291. davidb says:

    @ Brian Powell

    Thank you.

  292. Ruby says:

    Brian Powell

    Very interesting comment! Do you think the more the polls show an increase in support for Scottish Independence the more reluctant they will be to trigger article 50?

    Perhaps we should keep it on the down low until the deed is done!

    I’m wondering if George Osborne is at home conisdering his resignation.

  293. wiredofhermiston says:

    I suspect the Brexiteers will fight tooth and nail to stop Scotland leaving. They have too much to lose.

  294. maureen says:

    If we are accepted as an independent state in the eu in our own right, can we then launch our own tv broadcasting station?

  295. davidb says:

    @ cearc

    ” the will of British Citizens should be FULLY respected”

    Our will is to remain in the EU.

    Please let that be the coded meaning of that.

    Alba Gu snooker loopy!

  296. Cadogan Enright says:

    Also on radio here that there is a reprint of passports going on in Republic ‘cos of shortage and normal 2 weeks turnaround time skyrocketing

  297. Smallaxe says:

    @Cadogan Enright, Thank you for your very kind greeting my friend,may the sun shine on you
    and the wind always be at your back. So much kindness from so many people tonight,my heart is full and a happy tear in my eyes.Peace & Love.

  298. Gary45% says:

    Aye and we can get rid of every one of the lying bastards connected to BBC Shortbread, (Radio and TV, we all know who they are).
    Its been a good day, had a few conversations with nay sayers, who are now voting Yes.
    Happy days-gunderson

  299. Davy says:

    Fantastic comments from fantastic people, I have loved reading each and every one.

    Hope has risen again, our countrys soul beats anew and I look forward to taking that final step to independence with you.

    My Scotland, your Scotland, OUR SCOTLAND.

  300. Breeks says:

    I’m getting a bad feeling about England. They seem to be running headlong towards a dark place and the comments you see and hear are riven with people as angry as they seem to be ignorant. So many cannot articulate any joined up reason for voting the way they have. They just spout the hollow propaganda supplied by UKIP, but so much hatred.
    The BBC are predictably parading flag waving Brexiteers overjoyed with what they’ve done, but it’s clichéd stuff, foreigners taking our jobs, doctors needing interpreters etc. The kind of stuff that makes you think of immigrants, maybe with poor language skills, missing loved ones and feeling a long way from home, double locking their doors and windows and keeping the lights off to pretend nobody is home.
    Brexit is still only hours old, and the world is still on weekend tempo. Once the enormity of this begins to penetrate, I just don’t see anything constructive coming from it at all. It’s insane. Brexit themselves didn’t expect to win, Farage even conceded defeat, yet these are the switched-on ad-libbing geniuses who are going to unplug rUK from Europe and reconnect with a global market which has trundled along all by itself for decades, and get it all squared away from a standing start to completion inside two years? Really? They look like spiv barrow boys who start every sentence they speak without knowing how it ends. I wouldn’t let Boris Eton Johnston rewire a plug, never mind reconstruct a world class economy. He is so out his depth he makes certain goldfish look smart.

    Oh England, England, WTF have you done? Your far right is stirring, on its feet looking for someone to hate. The world is openly ridiculing your decision for its stupidity, and the tumbling share prices and collapsing portfolio’s have wiped out trillions of dollars in the world market you are about re-engage with??? Think you can square that with a wink and smile and making everybody coffee? All I see ahead of you is anger, frustration and hate, and not just from thugs in beer belly England strips, but I’m seeing it and hearing it from little old ladies and kids. WTF have you done?

    Are you even done yet? Or is there more? Are we all going to wake up one morning to news of a UK style Kristal Nacht where skinheads and EDL bigots have turned on immigrant businesses or refugees crushed once already, and ruined their faith in humanity all over again? For crying out load, wake the fuck up England. You are scaring the shit out of me, and I’m safe, a million miles away from where you are.

    Is that really your plan? Cure you immigration crisis by terrorising your immigrants so they leave and don’t come back?

    And everywhere… Every story… Every perspective,… Every shock and tragedy, down there in the corner, Britains finest; the BBC dishing out blame and condemnation like some hypocrite priest who hands down the word from God.

    It’s time to be Independent. Not to abandon England in its troubles, but the Union is dead and we cannot seem to help or council each other while it remains a dispute between us.

  301. otherdemons says:

    @Ruby – interesting point! I hadn’t thought of it but then as much as I like to say I trust no politicians I think Nicola is canny enough.
    And I have to say, being a Frenchie here, I’ve been very impressed with how she’s reacted to the whole thing. Of course she has a great hand to play with all areas voting for Remain (‘every vote counts’ is certainly so very true this time round when you look at results such as Moray!) , but not only was her speech yesterday a nice boost for every EU citizen here, but while the Tories and Labour are infighting, she’s been busy acting for Scottish interests and making plans and communicating them to the electorate. Right now I’m very happy to have her as my local MSP and obviously as First Minister! On the other hand, my regional vote went to the Greens, and I expect the annoyed email I’m planning to send to Patrick Harvie won’t be the only one.

  302. maureen says:

    Thanks Gary45%. I agree, the mood has changed. The person I spoke to today as I said voted no so as not to lose eu membership and is pretty angry that brexit will lead to that anyway.
    So, yes, another converted. Hopefully it will have the domino effect with his mates, friends, family etc.
    I referred him to wings for further education lol!

  303. T222Deracha says:

    O/T Given the need for EU exit negotiations to at least begin, where are all the UK MEPs?. Shouldn’t they at least be making public statements and talking to Brussels, since that is their actual friggin’ job, or have they all been struck dumb?.

  304. K1 says:

    Aye Brian I suspected something along those lines was happening the minute Article 50 was not immediately triggered after the vote. They wanted ‘wriggle room’ and now they have the pressure of the other EU member states piling on top of them saying: No Way!

    It’s a shambles for England richt enough. Boris Johnson is a Europhile. If Article 50 is not triggered, and I believe they are attempting to distance themselves from the eu-phoria (hehe) of the emboldened right wing nationalism that has been engendered by this vote, by giving themselves several months ‘cool down’ time, to allow them to not go into formal negotiations.

    I feel that this section of England’s electorate will probably become very difficult to ‘handle’. And they are fearful of that. So they cannot say it was just an ‘advisory’ ref. And they cannot trigger Article 50 because as that commenter says, they know what it really means.

    It’s beginning to look like they really did not expect to win. They had no idea how utterly despairing the ordinary working class people have become due to their austerity and neocon policies. They are not the ‘masters of the universe’ after all.

    We can but look on and get on our lifeboat, while they play music as their great England sinks beneath the waves of blood and soil nationalism. inaudible mumble.

  305. otherdemons says:

    Don’t trust my analysis as I’ve had few beers – but surely it’s interesting to see that some areas that were the most pro-union last time around were also now amongst the most pro-remain. It’s certainly going to give a few folks some headaches. Thinking of Edinburgh, and closer to home, East Renfrewshire especially.

    BBC news and their different stances on different refs can eff off but I caught some of STV news before switching to Glasto – on the BBC hah – for New Order and now Philip Glass. How did they go and only find people opposing a 2nd indy ref out on Buchanan st??

  306. Gary45% says:

    Breeks, I think one of the main problems with England is too many of their citizens have for too long,been degraded and basically downtrodden by the Establishment.
    There are many parts of the south that are on the breadline, the industrial powerhouse that used to exist all over the UK has been trashed by successive Westminster governments, to make “The City” the be all and end all. I make no excuses for them, they have the ability to change their own fortunes, but rather go forth with a positive vision, they have sat on their arses and blamed everyone but themselves.
    Peel off Fararge’s face and you will find Nick Griffiths under it, he said the words to sway a demoralised country.
    To blame everyone else is the cowards way out.
    As I said, I feel no sorrow for them because Scotland has been treated in exactly the same way, only we as Scots have more vision and outward thinking than the rest of the UK.( We also have a brilliant leader in Nicola with a solid government behind her.)

  307. Macbeda says:


    Does this mean UKIP will now shut up shop and we can maybe get rid of the feckin embarassing Scottish MEP who can barely string two sensible words together.

  308. Lochside says:

    R. Peffers ‘ Some even do not realise that when Hadrian built his wall there was no such country as England and what Hadrian was doing was to stop smuggling as the Roman Empire operated a customs an excise system’.

    You fancy yourself as a historian Robert, yet there you are peddling the pish about Hadrian’s wall, perpetrated by English revisionist historians about it being a ‘custom’s post’. Some Customs’ post!

    As a proud Briton, you should know that they built it to keep the Northern tribes (our ancestors, the Brythonic and Caledonian tribes, including the Picts) at bay.

    There were milecastles with two turrets in between. There was a fort about every five Roman miles. From north to south, the wall comprised a ditch, wall, military way and vallum, another ditch with adjoining mounds. It is thought that the milecastles were staffed with static garrisons of up to 1500 men, whereas the forts had fighting garrisons of infantry and cavalry.

    Walls up to 20 feet high…aye some custom posts! The Romans were harried to such an extent that they tried to drive our forebears back to the narrowest part of the British Isles between the Forth and the Clyde, with Antonine’s wall. That lasted 8 years as a ‘Custom Post’ before being abandoned and the Romans getting to hell back to Hadrian’s wall.

    The ‘Custom Post’ meme has surfaced in recent years as the English historical establishment has decided to rebrand ‘Roman Britain’ as a fierce but bravely defeated place e.g. Boadica and the destruction of Londinium…this red haired Celtic Queen is seldom described as such, but implied as being a proto Anglo-Saxon type displaying those ‘bulldog’ qualities. Despite the fact that those peoples were hundred of years in the future.

    This narrative then leads to proud but undefeated meme of ‘civilised Britons’ or Romano-Britains evolving ( shorthand for civilised English folk). Hence all these bullshit documentaries about Roman Britain which ignores the Northern half which resisted Rome. Those tribes formerly known as ‘barbarians’ and in my youth synonymous with ‘mad jocks’ are now ignored or marginalised as being superfluous to Rome’s ambitions, for reasons never made clear…’the Empire’s line in the sand’, or a barren place not worthy of conquer’

    Really?..two great bloody ‘custom posts’, thousands of troops garrisoning them..yeah right! What you have is the re-writing of British history. The same narrative that diminishes the leading role that the incorporation of Scotland played in creating the ‘English’ empire. The conquest of India and Canada by Scottish troops; the loss of 150,000 of our men in the first war, the abandonment of the Highland division at St Valery in 1940, allowing the ‘victory’ of the Dunkirk evacuation. While a week later our men were still fighting on, abandoned by ‘Britain’.

    Whatever the next few years lead to in Scotland’s relationship with England, we must resist this deletion or dimunition of our role in these islands’ history. And it is incumbent upon contributors such as Peffers not to contribute to that deliberate policy of concealing or distorting by repeating such mis-representations

  309. otherdemons says:

    Macbeda – or anyone knows anyone with UKIP sympathies, please go and share:

  310. David Mills says:

    Kevin would have tide to the mast of the Maria salest Britain as holed below the plimsoll line she slips her marring drift West into the sunset

    I think it is time to rally to independence for our people industry economy and nation for our home.

    We did our best to save our neighbors but they gave choose to site around an open fire on deck this great maritime nation setting themselves adrift of a fire boat of crafted by their own hand, must the the viking blood in them.

    When even if they call us rats so be it we should be leaving leaking and vessel.

  311. Macbeda says:

    Slightly O/T

    Dave Cam has really pissed on his chances of a HOL sinecure.

    There was her maj, just purring along when BANG!.

    Feck me I’ve just lost 25% of my queendom and god alone knows how many billions on the old stock market.

    I’ll need a bloody passport to get to Balmoral and the grouse shootin don’t ye know.

    That Cameron chappie has a lot to answer. No ermine for him..

  312. otherdemons says:

    @Gary45% I think a lot of people felt like this was the one chance they had to make their vote count. Yes some people are thick, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they are bad-hearted. We are lucky in Scotland that we’ve had devolution, and that since 2007 the SNP has shown there is a more decent way to deal with our budget than they did down South.
    I wish the same had happened in Wales – I don’t know what PC have been up to, they should have been gathering the discontent votes but let these slip to UKIP

    In time, I’m sure more will regret their choice, and yes there’s loads of racists in the lot, but I don’t believe that’s the main reason people voted out. I shake my head when I read European coverage going on about EU this EU that – the result actually has little to do with the EU, a lot of people just wanted to stick it to the Establishment and they’ve been fooled. There are still plenty of defiant English in spite of Farage calling the 350m a week back to the NHS an ‘error’. I really hope we get out of this mess as an independant nation soon, because things arent going to be pretty in England once folks realise they’ve been had. Anyhow I just wanted to say it’s not helpful to tar people with the same brush – and yes there are plenty I’d happlily slap after reading their comments, but again loads are decent people – and I don’t mean the Farage definition of decent, I just mean folks capable of showing some empathy towards others.

  313. Paula Rose says:

    @Lochside I thought they built Hadrian’s Wall in order to give the squaddies something to do. Sort of glorified whitewashing stones on the parade ground and then later somewhere to send them when nothing much else was going on.

  314. MJS Dundee says:

    I found myself in the company of a lot of former NO voters in Aberdeenshire earlier today. A fair number of them are from other EU states or (like myself) married to someone from another EU state. All of them (unlike me) oil-industry and not lacking a bob or 100 000.

    Until today I never really understood/believed that EU membership was such a big thing to No voters. How wrong I was – with the above folks at any rate.

    Whereas in 2014 I could scarcely get a YES word in with these folks to anything other than polite disdain, today I was being assured they were all now YES voters for certain and could I please explain x, y & z of the economic case and how long before they could vote on it … . Where could they sign up?

    I was that flabbergasted I could scarce answer them. We’ll be careful, take our time to understand what’s happening first and then we’ll go for it … .

    Now, these people and no doubt so many others still have questions about Indy. And we need to listen to them and see if we can answer their questions, do our best, but this is a whole different space now.

    And I was thinking, perhaps some of these new Yes people will now begin to add their ideas, their solutions, to the many Indy questions even many of us have – improving the case with which we persuade even more.

    But believe me, if those folks have come over, Eric may be seriously underestimating what the polls could shortly be showing.

    We need to be gie careful now, to be welcoming and inclusive – just like the country we wish to forge. And irrespective of and completely forgetting what many of the new Yessers might have said before. Mind in particular that there’s nothing like the newly converted for finding zeal and energy – many of them could be incredible assets.

    Mind also, that winning that new iScotland is only the starting place, that it won’t be easy and we will want and need every single person we can get on-side for a long time to come. We want Yes on 70% and more and if we play this next bit right, it could be there for us.

  315. bjsalba says:

    O/T sort of
    Supposedly, finally, someone at the BBC gets it. Notice, however this is AFTER the vote. If we Scots understood upfront that the Leave mob were opportunistic liars, how come Evan didn’t?
    Here is his CV from Wiki

    Davis grew up in Ashtead, Surrey He attended Dorking County Grammar School, which in 1976 became The Ashcombe School, Dorking. Davis then gained a First in Philosophy, Politics and Economics at St John’s College, Oxford from 1981 to 1984, before obtaining an MPA at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University.

    Doesn’t say much for a university education, does it?

    The problem is that many people outside Scotland still don’t understand that politicians the newspapers and the BBC (probably including ED) are lying to them. Big time.

    When will those who voted for Brexit tumble to the fact that they have just been had by the Tories?


  316. Petra says:

    @ Smallaxe says at 9:00 pm …. ”I would love to be able to meet yourself and all other Wingers but unfortunately I am fighting two different types of cancer one incurable. This site and you and all the others are my personal chemo, I am certain that the Rev’ll others are giving me more time to hopefully see our Country free. Peace to you and yours. Billy.

    Dearest Billy please don’t give up. Wait around and you’ll see Scotland become a free Nation once again.

    You say that one type of cancer you are suffering from is incurable but I’ve have heard this story all too often before and know of people who have proven this prognosis to be wrong. I’ve actually witnessed two individuals who have basically come back from the dead … miraculous as per the doctors involved. So please believe in miracles Billy. Miracles CAN happen.

    It sounds as though you have gone through chemotherapy Billy. I ask you now to attempt to heal yourself, and YES you CAN …. believe me, by imagining a white light encompassing your whole body and washing away your illness from head to toe …. right out of your toes. Mind over matter research (scientific) indicates that it can work. This is basic stuff Billy. If you are interested go onto self-healing sites online. Check them out.

    Good luck Billy and all my best wishes to you for a full and speedy recovery darling. And by the way I’m sure that the thousands of people visiting this site are also sending their VERY best wishes to you … in my case prayers too xxx

  317. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Uplifting post, Petra.

    And smallaxe – we’ll get there. I’m 64 and I thought independence was off the radar in my lifetime. But circumstances change, iye?

    Hing on in there – we’re gonna win.

  318. Smallaxe says:

    @ Petra & Brian Doonthetoon, I thank you so much for the kindness you both and many others on this thread have shown to
    me,I am usually a very private person and this is the only site I have ever been confident enough to post in.

    Petra,be assured that I will use the methods that you so kindly have taken the time to impart to me and yes you are correct in saying that I have had Chemo and now have to take a
    pill daily (Hydroxycarbamide) as the incurable cancer is
    extremely rare (Myelofibrosis) it is a blood cancer so rare that even my oncologist has told me to look it up on the internet.Thank you again,now you and Brian get back to what you do so eruditely and continue your normal posts and set our
    Beautiful Country Free before the Rev comes after me with hammers for not using enough paragraph breaks.Peace Love &
    Happiness to you.Billy.

  319. Liz g says:

    You stay with us now Hun…
    And you jist wait till ye see how much all yir campaigning will pay off…and ye see how much we owe ye.XXX

  320. Smallaxe says:

    @ Liz g,Thank you Liz but I am owed nothing,on the contrary I
    owe you and all on Wings for the love and kindness shown to
    myself,I consider you all Family and I’m determined to hang on
    so that I can one day meet you all in a free Scotland.Peace & love xxx

  321. Macart says:

    Just catching up on news. Hillary Benn sacked overnight and Labour in chaos. Benn was apparently the main mover and shaker behind organising the rumoured vote of no confidence.

    So pretty much Conservatives and Labour falling apart before our eyes and the UKs social cohesion in full disarray. No leadership shown from Westminster as both parties indulge in an orgy of self harm and the economy taking a kicking on world markets.

    As Breeks posted earlier, what have they done? They’ve manipulated their own population to the edge of self destruction and for what? Who gets to sit in a big chair? Greed and pure self interest? Well… yes.

    Be clear on this. Both sides created this narrative, this culture of rage and mistrust. Both used the media to demonise and alienate demographics within their own society. Both created fertile ground for the haters and the rage which fueled their poisonous referendum and it was decades in the making. Decades of abuse by media manipulation, corruption, political ineptitude and short-termist policy.

    Right now many people are suffering, they’re afraid and they have a right to be. Promises unravelling literally days after the vote. No forward plan for the economy, no calming statements, no social cohesion, no leadership, no stability. By contrast our own government have been seen to act swiftly and decisively to meet the crisis both at home and with the EU.

    The right of right are still in full party mode. They haven’t got their head out of their arse long enough to see to the needs of their own electorate FFS! There was never a Brexit government in waiting to carry leadership of the UK state forward in event of an out. The UK faces weeks and months of uncertainty as each party still has massive leadership battles to fight.

    So are we clear on just how urgent our own situation is yet?

  322. Ghillie says:

    All their chickens coming home to roost at once. What a nightmare.

    What a huge and unimaginable mess Boris is in now. Maybe he is as stupid as he looks.

    I do feel for the people of England. They are in for a very rough ride.

    Ironic, and fitting though, that it was not defeat in some huge and heroic battle, but the votes from the population that was duped with false promises and riled into xenophobic fear that is now dismantling the last of the ‘great’ British Empire.

    Going, not with a bang but a whimper.

  323. Ghillie says:

    Smallaxe, I have not met you and wish you well. Truly well.

    I am sorry to hear that you are having a struggle with your health. Please do try Petra’s visualising a healing white light. I have found that to bring comfort and ease.

    May I offer you this. Please do try praying. Whatever your spirituality. Never in my life have I had a prayer not answered. And so I will add my prayers for you too. I will ask for what you need, whatever that may truly be.

    Peace and love to you too Smallaxe, Ghillie x

  324. Smallaxe says:

    @ Ghillie,I have been completely overwhelmed by the number of
    people like your good self who have taken the time and the
    trouble getting in touch with me with their support,good wishes and prayers.Iam at a loss for words to describe how much it has and does mean to me and how much it has lifted my

    I can not thank you all enough and I apologise to everyone who
    may think quite rightly that I have taken up too much space when there are more important things to be talking about.Thank
    You again.Peace & Love to you and yours.

  325. tarisgal says:

    This came across my path last night and got me to wondering…

    “The role of the devolved legislatures in implementing the withdrawal agreement

    70. We asked Sir David whether he thought the Scottish parliament would have to give its consent to measures extinguishing the application of EU law in Scotland. He noted that such measures would entail amendment of section 29 of the Scotland Act 1998, which binds the Scottish parliament to act in a manner compatible with EU law, and he therefore believed that the Scottish parliament’s consent would be required. (83) He could envisage certain political advantaged being drawn from not giving consent. (84)

    71. We note that the European Communities Act is also entrenched in the devolution settlements of Wales and Northern Ireland. Though we have taken no evidence on this specific point, we have no reasont o believe that the requirement for legislative consent for its repeal would not apply to all the devolved nations.”

    I wondered where it had come from and asked the person who posted it, if they had a source. They were able to tell me that it is from:-

    House of Lords: European Committee – The Process of Withdrawing from European Union.

    And someone else provided the link to the document… Hope it’s okay to add it…

    The above comments are on Page 19, for your reference.

    I’ve posted this on another Wings thread but felt it might be more appropriate on this one. So forgive me if you find this twice in your wanderings and wonder how many other places you may find it! Lol!

  326. Ken500 says:

    What happened to Meths?

  327. Muscleguy says:

    Remember how the RBS moved its plaque to London during the last indyref? Well it will be coming back. Banks in the City have ‘passports’ which grant them the right to offer financial services in the EU. Why Morgan Stanley moved some jobs to Frankfurt on Friday. But being headquartered in Edinburgh will enable that passport to be kept.

    Office space in Edinburgh is going to be at a premium. Private bag and company registration services will be busy too. Some will find the need to move jobs too.

    City jobs are about to fly all over Frankfurt, Paris, Dublin, Edinburgh.

    Hey Rev Stu, when are you moving back up? Waiting for Independence Day might mean your housing will be more expensive and harder to find.

  328. BF says:

    Fundamentally, if the new Tory leader seeks to validate his/her premiership by seeking a mandate at the polls via another general election the SNP must have only one single policy on its general election manifesto and that should be:

    Vote SNP for Scottish independence from the UK.

    This would not require any legislation from Westminster and would be a 100% legit way for Scottish voters to vote for independence.

    No referendum required thereafter.

    In the absence of a general election then we organise one anyway and get ready to fight for its legitimacy.

  329. Rock says:


    “You fancy yourself as a historian Robert, yet there you are peddling the pish about Hadrian’s wall, perpetrated by English revisionist historians about it being a ‘custom’s post’. Some Customs’ post!”

    Good of you to put the record straight.

    Robert Peffers hasn’t dared to challenge you but he will continue peddling the same pish again and again.

  330. louis.b.argyll says:

    Rock, Lochside, again you are way off..
    Roberts “sentence” was correct.

    Hadrian Wall was built ( as you two, correctly, but rudely point out) as a defence of the Northern limit of the Roman Empire.

    EVENTUALLY, when it was completed / secured – (fannies) ( see I can be rude too) Robert Peffers is correct also… it had MANY FUNCTIONS, effectively a giant free-trade zone- local ROMAN/BRITISH captains allowed to barter with any local chiefs, in mutual interest, local skirmishes being seen as useful division of greater power from the north.

    A “customs” post in Roman times was not a fucking duty free / passport control.
    it was a market. Sanctioned goods being accepted by hungry soldiers and slaves.
    Slaves – a big wall was nothing for the Romans, they didn’t build it.

  331. Just had a thought about Ruthie tank commander.

    Her personal style I find too shouty and bullying, but there are folk who react well to that. Little old dears who were anti-Sturgeon without any good reason for example (just like the anti-Salmond folk before, who had no logical argument, except the childish response ‘just because’).

    Tactically, she decided to set heself up as the main opposition to the SNP, only that. Now that oor Kez has shot herself in the foot which is attached to the increasingly heavy foot-shackle of ‘no Indyref2’ and given Ruthie’s antipathy towards Johnston (as was obvious in the tv debate where she had been ordered to kick him oot the park at any opporchancity) she might, just might see the way the wind’s blowing and get on the indyref bus to allow her career to continue on the same bus, albeit the opposite side, to Nicola.

    And if she DID jump the shark to indyref2, the 55% first time round would include at least 20 who’d come straight over. Prediction, indyref2 70%. Done deal.

    BTW, I found Fluffy’s anti-Johnson answer yesterday morning very informative. It’s beginning to look like he is hated in Scottish Tory ranks as much as he is loved by the little Englanders.

    Come on Ruthie, you’ve got a career to save.

  332. Rock says:

    Robert Peffers,

    “what Hadrian was doing was to stop smuggling as the Roman Empire operated a customs an excise system.”

    So he is talking about WHEN the wall was built. He is talking PISH.


    “EVENTUALLY, when it was completed / secured – (fannies) ( see I can be rude too) Robert Peffers is correct also…”

    You are talking about EVENTUALLY. That makes Robert Peffers’ statement false if yours is correct.


    “As a proud Briton, you should know that they built it to keep the Northern tribes (our ancestors, the Brythonic and Caledonian tribes, including the Picts) at bay.”

    Challenge that if you can. Otherwise stop being an apologist for Robert Peffers’ PISH.

  333. louis.b.argyll says:

    RP/R/L-S, – the Romans had AN EMPIRE – they had LONG TERM goals –
    short term political solutions ( like actual invasions to seize power and destabilise / building walls / destroying harbours)
    Had Hadrian merely wanted to create a border “as DEFENCE ..”
    it would not have been so far south. ( Newcastle)
    There were rich lands across the borders, the wall allowed the “Picts / Northumbrians etc” to continue with their food production and general trading routes were not sabotaged.
    a vicious (say Plantagenet type ) of despot – would have scorched everything half way up the foothills – then built the wall – denying the “enemy” of its lands’ riches.

    but no – trade was ALWAYS on their minds.. once the military budget was exhausted / too remote to matter to the core.

  334. Daniel says:

    Happy to hear that Scotland is calling for independence once more. I have a couple of cousins living there and they are strong independence supporters. But there is one scary reality of a 2nd referendum. if ‘YES’ loses two referendums in one decade, Scotland could end up like Quebec where less than 20% of youth support independence today, likely killing off the cause completely in a couple of generations. PLEASE learn from them, Scotland. Never give up the cause, no matter what they tempt or threaten you with. In time, if you don’t break away, Westminster will eventually propagandize British identity to young Scots in order to avoid future referendums.

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