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Fox Force 56

Posted on July 13, 2015 by

There’s little to gladden the heart of a left-wing Scot like a Tory squealing in outrage that he won’t be allowed to torture woodland creatures to death for “sport” any more.

So this site is thrilled by the announcement from the SNP that they will, after much speculation in the media, vote against (and therefore likely condemn to defeat) the UK government’s plans to relax England’s fox-hunting ban to a point at which it would be de facto repealed entirely.

fox4

And not just because foxes are a lot cuter than Tories.

The decision will almost certainly be met with great howls of outrage from the English press, and they’ll wield some predictable weapons. David Cameron had attempted to be clever by amending the English bill to mirror the one currently in force in Scotland*, and the vote will come immediately before one on “English votes for English laws” in the Commons tomorrow.

The intent is obvious – firstly attempt to stop the Nats voting at all with a “hypocrisy” line, then if they do vote, to use it as ammunition for EVEL. But the SNP have some strong defence lines too.

Firstly, in their press release they’ve already noted that their stance has been shaped by pleas from voters in England. (In voting against foxhunting, it happens that they’ll also be acting on behalf of a huge majority of the British population that the Tories are trying to override with a sneaky procedural trick.)

And secondly, if the Conservatives are goaded into railroading EVEL through it’ll do the cause of independence far more good than harm.

But best of all, the SNP have the moral high ground.

imart

As Telegraph columnist Iain Martin pointed out haughtily to us this evening, Scotland voted to stay in the UK, meaning its MPs sit in the UK parliament. But the slow-witted hack didn’t seem to grasp that that argument cuts both ways. If the SNP sit in a UK parliament, they’re UK MPs, entitled to vote on any UK laws they feel like. End of.

Previously, of course, the SNP have voluntarily refrained from voting on laws which only affect England. But that respect agenda was smashed to pieces when the UK government trampled all over the electoral mandate that Scots gave the SNP. By sending 56 MPs to Westminster on an explicit manifesto pledge of seeking far greater powers than were contained in the feeble Scotland Bill, the Scottish electorate delivered an unmistakeable message.

Constitutionally, Westminster doesn’t have to listen to that message. It can simply steamroller the wishes of the Scottish people with the superior numbers of English MPs, and it duly did so. But in making that statement, by saying that there are no such things as Scotland and England as far as the UK parliament is concerned, the government also annihilates the argument for EVEL.

If the UK is one indivisible nation, then it follows that its MPs must all be equal. As such, MPs from Scotland have every bit as much right to vote on any bill as MPs from Kent or Surrey or Essex or Derbyshire.

(The complaint that English MPs can’t correspondingly vote on matters devolved to Scotland is nonsensical, because English MPs don’t sit in the Scottish Parliament but SNP ones do sit in the UK parliament. If Westminster chose to devolve certain issues outside itself, that’s Westminster’s problem.)

A permanent and complete solution to the “West Lothian Question” was offered last September, but the UK parties fought tooth and nail and used every dirty trick in the book to persuade Scotland to continue sending MPs to London. They succeeded, and they must now live with the consequences of getting what they wished for.

.

*Incidentally, we strongly hope – both to defuse the allegations of hypocrisy and simply because it’s the right thing to do – that the SNP will quickly move to at a minimum equalise the Scottish ban, which was passed in 2002 and in a typical piece of Labour half-arsery is significantly weaker than the current English one.

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    1. 13 07 15 23:17

      Fox Force 56 | Speymouth

    2. 14 07 15 11:09

      Fox Force 56 | Politics Scotland | Scoop.it

    3. 16 07 15 23:09

      The Devo Files Return | A Wilderness of Peace

    4. 17 07 15 10:01

      “They piss in your pocket and they call it rain” | Gabriel Vents

    244 to “Fox Force 56”

    1. Betty Boop says:

      Yup, agree with that Stu. In my opinion, they should vote on every single issue. They wanted us, they’ve got us.

    2. DeilTakTheHindmaist says:

      I hear from a well-connected source that a tightening up of the Scottish fox hunting legislation is indeed on its way.

    3. Adam says:

      Do the Tories actually even realise the bind they’re in here?

    4. HandandShrimp says:

      Poor Mr Martin seems to have a revolving door for a mind. Union good but nasty Scottish MPs bad.

      What is sauce for the goose and all that. English MPs seemed happy enough to vote down all the Scotland Bill amendments.

      I also like the way the SNP have invited Labour MPs to join with them to vote against Osborne’s budget too.

      No one can say the SNP are not participating in Parliament either 🙂

    5. Lanarkist says:

      The SNP decision to refrain from purely English votes was a sign of respect and recognition of a unique anomaly of the UK devolution settlement.

      That respect is now viewed through several new lenses including the new anomaly of the veto, English TOries reneging on the Smith Vow agreements and EVEL.

      The deal has changed and the statement made by Nicola regards votes in Westminster has signalled intent.

      I agree that on this principle, fox hunting, the SNP should vote against and balance legislation in Scotland to outright ban!

      SNP didn’t change the deal, Dave and his Westminster Establishment cronies already had that covered.

    6. HandandShrimp says:

      PS I agree that we should tighten up the Scottish bill – there would be damned few opposed to such a measure in the current parliament.

    7. Ross says:

      So relieved to hear this – i’m an SNP member but would’ve been disgusted if they’d abstained from preventing such cruelty.

      Oh, and nice job with that cretin Iain Martin.

    8. K1 says:

      Ayep, the playing field has changed, you make the sane and rational argument…it’s the UK parliament, we remain in the UK, so our representatives from Scotland as part of that UK have every right to vote on any laws in the UK.

      English votes for English laws only works if there’s an English parliament.

      There isn’t.

      Fuck you Tories.

    9. Wills says:

      “Stick your EVEL up your arse”
      Quote of the year 😉

    10. Soda says:

      “Indeed, so stick “English votes for English laws” up your arse”

      Touché lol

    11. Neil Mackenzie says:

      There used to be word for banning certain “ethnic” people in their own country from voting and it wasn’t ‘EVEL’. I recall it was ‘aparteid’. Whatever happened to that?

    12. Thepnr says:

      But the slow-witted hack didn’t seem to grasp that that works both ways. If the SNP sit in a UK parliament, they’re UK MPs, entitled to vote on any UK laws they feel like. End of.

      This is why I still visit Wings everyday. I’ve never even heard of Iain Martin, show showing my ignorance. I doubt that Iain Martin is as ignorant of Wings and Rev Stuart Campbell than than I am him.

      On the topic of the vote, Yes i’m glad the SNP will support the ban. Fecking obvious really.

    13. Capella says:

      A palpable hit. Cute, in every way.

    14. McHaggis says:

      best news in ages –
      Fuck westminster if it thinks our 56 MP’s won’t work for what people want.

    15. ronald alexander mcdonald says:

      The SNP should propose a Bill replacing foxes with Tory MP’s.

    16. Training Day says:

      Why do London bubble-ite journalists (Faisal Islam on the Rev’s twitter feed) call the SNP voting on fox hunting a ‘big constitutional moment’?

      Yet when Tory MPs stagger out of the bar to vote down every amendment to the Scotland Bill it’s not a big constitutional moment? In fact nary a journalistic eyebrow is raised.

      Some constitutional moments are more equal than others.

    17. Jackie says:

      When you say that English MPs can’t vote in the Scottish Parliament which is obviously true are you counting the fact that the Tories red,blue and yellow MSPs who vote regularly in the Scottish Parliament are members of national parties and are therefore subject to their parties rules and policies. Not to mention that new Scottish bill appears to have a reserved right to veto by the single Scottish Tory who happens to be the Scottish Secretary of State ? How is that not having a say in Scottish matters ?

    18. IvMoz says:

      @HandandShrimp

      We need to go further.

      These “country sports” are not sports. They are the most intolerable cruelties exacted upon terrified creatures.

      Oft repeated but so true is Gandhi’s quote “The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”

      I hope that in an Independent Scotland we do not condone animal cruelty.

      Good on the SNP for voting on an English only issue but we need to do more in Holyrood.

    19. Johnny says:

      I note many of the intelligentsia on our own squad seem to want to act like carpets.

    20. No no no...Yes says:

      This is a political masterstroke by the SNP. Not only will it stick one on the Tories, and infuriate the MSM, but it really puts Labour in a tough place for the vote on the Tory welfare cuts next week. Our 56 are playing a blinder and the anti-SNP/Scotland rhetoric will go off the scale and add more support for the final indyref.

      Popcorn anyone?

    21. Terry says:

      Well done snp. OutFOXed the Tories.

      Bring it on ya bass

    22. Fred says:

      The D’EVEL ‘s in the detail. 🙂

    23. Derek Russell says:

      We can still hunt woodland creatures with packs of dogs in Scotland. And use packs of dogs to flush out foxes and hares.

      I’ve also read that the number of foxes killed has increased since the Protection of Wild Mammals (Scotland) Act 2002 came into force.

      I’m definitely not in favour of hunting for sport, but come on. Stones and glass houses?

    24. One_Scot says:

      Having read some of Iain Martins tweets it’s clear he’s a bit of an arse who doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

      But then that does seem to be a fundamental requirement for being a unionist.

    25. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I’m definitely not in favour of hunting for sport, but come on. Stones and glass houses?”

      Didn’t make it as far as the last paragraph, then?

    26. Drsteinberg says:

      Mmmmmm they’re really not strong on this ‘democracy’ malarkey are they?

    27. Elgoldave says:

      We were told we’re better together and wanted. I say our SNP MPs should vote on everything in the UK Parliament. If England feels they need a separate parliament then they should pay for this and establish one.

    28. Robert Louis says:

      ENGLISH unionist Tory MP’s turned up to vote down ALL the powers Scotland needed in the new Scotland bill, so it truly divine retribution, to see the SNP use their power to vote down the England and Wales fox killing bill. besides, as others have pointed out, the fox killing bill would also affect Wales.

      Well done SNP.

    29. heedtracker says:

      “The quick brown Wos fox jumps over the slow witted Torygraph hack.” There is lot at stake though. This is where the whole BetterTogether UK edifice starts to crumble for the tory boys.

    30. Lanarkist says:

      Do as we say not as we do!

      Just a headline idea for I. Martins next article.

      May even be more accurate!

    31. Marcia Clark says:

      What’s it got to do with the Tories anyway! They told us in September last year that we should lead the union rather than leave it, so here we are trying to lead by principle, and still they shout us down!!! Bunch of cretins!!

    32. msean says:

      I agree with this move,its just the right thing to do,animals don’t do politics. Also,if the Scottish bill needs sorting,then do it.

    33. Garve says:

      Hmmm. I’m not happy, even if the article highlights a few beneficial points to this.

      And before folk start saying those like me are ‘carpets’, I’m proud of the fact the SNP have held to decent principles. Do those celebrating this decision also look forward to the day the SNP choose to accept peerages and join the House of Lords?

      This isn’t a resigning issue for me, nowhere near it. But I am disappointed.

    34. Humac says:

      I’ve met and talked with Iain Martin. Thoroughly nice chap. But calling him slow-witted is a tad generous…

    35. HandandShrimp says:

      Fox hunting is not popular. A hell of a lot of posters on the Guardian are saying Thank you SNP.

      I think the Tories are trying to play politics but they may have pitched this battle on the wrong field.

    36. msean says:

      Tories seem to have forgotten that voting no had consequencies.

    37. Rob James says:

      I’m glad to see the SNP making a stand on this. It can only increase their popularity in England (Establishment types and Hooray Henrys excepted who will be seriously pissed off).

      As for Evel, let them set up a devolved parliament which can be financed from their block grant. Somehow I can’t see that happening. It would take some serious manipulation of figures to disguise their subsidy junkie status. Then again, they do a not too bad job at the moment.

    38. heedtracker says:

      Rancid The Graun’s fun tonight too:D

      Well they did plead Scotland to stay like the tory creeps they are. Cameron himself said he really weally loves Scotland.

      Remember it well, huge public meeting, Glasgow, very heated debate with all comers, made his case in front all shades of Scottish vote, “I love Scotland and want you to stay” he said.

      Which bits not true there lol, the big old chicken tory boy that he is.

      https://archive.is/NNqv3

      Vendange 1m ago

      If the SNP stick their arrogant noses into English only legislation then I hope Cameron gives them a thrashing like what they haven’t had sinc

    39. Luigi says:

      It would be hilarious if the SNP MPs stayed away during the “English” debate on fox hunting, and then duly trooped in to vote against the amendment. On a point of principle, of course! What goes around….:)

    40. R-type Grunt says:

      What if Labour vote with the Tories?

    41. Luigi says:

      It would be a good thing to show the critics that the 56 SNP MPs can and will make a difference. A few trolls have been asking what is the point of them being there. They will soon find out. 🙂

    42. Luigi says:

      R-type Grunt says:
      13 July, 2015 at 11:12 pm

      What if Labour vote with the Tories?

      Surely even they are not that stupid?

      ….Oh shit!

    43. John Walsh says:

      With every bbcqt appearance SNP representatives are winning allies, the SNP have been demonised for so long by MSM, this vote will backfire on the Tories,and the SNP will have “white hats” for once. Things change in politics. Small majority not looking so good now Mr Cameron eh?

    44. Luigi says:

      HandandShrimp says:
      13 July, 2015 at 10:55 pm

      Fox hunting is not popular. A hell of a lot of posters on the Guardian are saying Thank you SNP.

      I think the Tories are trying to play politics but they may have pitched this battle on the wrong field.

      The bluff has been called. They should not mess with the SNP. They will get their sorry asses kicked.

    45. Fireproofjim says:

      This is a moral issue not a political issue and the SNP have every right to vote on it and to follow their consciences.
      Those who delight in the death of terrified animals have already given up any moral high ground.
      The next step is to totally ban fox hunting in Scotland.

    46. Luigi says:

      Luigi says:
      13 July, 2015 at 11:14 pm

      R-type Grunt says:
      13 July, 2015 at 11:12 pm

      What if Labour vote with the Tories?

      Surely even they are not that stupid?

      Seriously though, I do hope that Labour finally get their their huff and start working with the SNP and others to make life hell for the tories. There are crucial votes on benefits cuts etc coming soon.

    47. Luigi says:

      I think crafty Cameron has been outfoxed this time.

    48. Thepnr says:

      Sticking to your principles is hard but necessary in order to gain trust. I’m so pleased that the SNP are taking this view.

      Don’t let them push us around, whenever the SNP have a single opportunity to defeat the Tories then they must.

      Ineffective Huh!

    49. Jamie says:

      Iain Martin is a fud.

    50. HandandShrimp says:

      Garve

      There are principles but the Tories ran rough shod over them when they voted down every single amendment on the Scotland Bill.

      I would agree that on principle most England only bills should be avoided but this is an England and Wales bill (for some reason) and the SNP have been invited to join the other parties in voting this amendment down.

      Also chasing and killing wee mammals with dogs is just bang out of order.

    51. Neil Anderson says:

      Time to end the self denying ordinance and cry havoc.
      Make rUK as ungovernable as possible until we are listened to and treated fairly or we get Indy.
      Foxes are a lot cuter than Tories. Lets set unlimited hunting dogs on the Tories instead.

    52. This is not about voting in English matters,this is to stop cruel, callous and sadistic humans from their enjoyment in the slaughter of defenceless animals.

      2015 and the UK seems to be reverting back to a time before the birth of socialism.

      Scotland has the option of getting out or changing it from the inside.

    53. cearc says:

      Iain Martin seemed to have undergone a lobotomy between working for the WSJ and going to the Telegraph. The difference in the nonsense he writes now and before is astonishing.

    54. call me dave says:

      @Luigi

      Heaven forfend! …tempting though and shooting a tory fox. 🙂

    55. Capella says:

      O/T Nana Mouskouri singing The White Rose of Athens at the Albert Hall in 1974. Ironically, originally recorded in German.

      youtu.be/Fsdg801vrgA

    56. heedtracker says:

      http://newsnet.scot/2015/07/tory-adviser-tomkins-claims-snp-foxhunt-pledge-is-designed-to-irritate/

      Professor Smirky piles in. “More posturing from the SNP: last week EVEL, this week foxes. It’s just tactics, designed to irritate. Ignore them and don’t rise to it.”

      He knows all about irritating. What’s irritating in Slovene?

    57. Capella says:

      ” It’s just tactics, designed to irritate”.

      I certainly hope so.

    58. David says:

      The only good Martin is a Troy Kennedy Martin. 🙂

    59. Dr Jim says:

      Cameron can go and Fox himself

      Ma spellin’s rotten

    60. Chic McGregor says:

      “Why do London bubble-ite journalists (Faisal Islam on the Rev’s twitter feed) call the SNP voting on fox hunting a ‘big constitutional moment’?

      Yet when Tory MPs stagger out of the bar to vote down every amendment to the Scotland Bill it’s not a big constitutional moment? In fact nary a journalistic eyebrow is raised.

      Some constitutional moments are more equal than others.”

      Four legs big. Legless not.

    61. StevieMcB says:

      Masterstroke.feel the love for a change. 🙂

      https://twitter.com/DrBrianMay/status/620682556372090881

    62. Rock says:

      Excellent move by the SNP, exactly what I was hoping for:

      “Not only stupid, but barbaric in the 21st century.

      If our 56 SNP MPs don’t want to be 2nd class MPs at Westminster they should exercise their right to vote against this barbarism.

      One of the reasons Labour wanted a No vote was to protect the English against the Tories.

      Although a fat lot of good their 41 MPs did.

      There is a majority against fox hunting among the people of England.

      People have been talking about the SNP standing candidates in England (a very bad idea in my view).

      But here is a chance for our SNP MPs to vote on the right side of English public opinion without having MPs in England.

      The SNP’s popularity will rise even further in England.”

      Let us hope that Cameron is defeated.

      Or is Labour going to let him win by abstaining?

    63. TheWealthOfNations says:

      The West Lothian Question is a steaming pile of smoke and mirrors.

      Scottish MP’s have no more power to vote on Devolved matters than English MP’s.

      UK MP’s are elected to the UK parliament to deliberate on UK legislation. That UK parliament has voluntarily devolved some of that power to regional parliaments but retains the sovereign right to withdraw said grant at any time and make any decision it likes about any constituent part of the UK.

      All UK MP’s are presently equal and entitled to vote on exactly the same range of legislation.

      It is a straight up logical fallacy. There is no such thing as Scottish or English MP’s. They are all UK MP’s.

    64. Rock says:

      To me, this issue is primarily about stopping barbarism to animals.

      The politics of it is simply a by-product – I wouldn’t have minded even if the SNP lost popularity on this issue – but we could not have had a better political win.

      And the Rev. Stuart Campbell making the Telegraph hack look utterly stupid and speechless is sweet revenge for Frenchgate and the numerous times the Telegraph has insulted us.

      I hope the gloves are finally off.

      Let us beat them at their own game, with a majority of the public both north and south of the border on our side.

    65. Thepnr says:

      I feel a positive shift towards the SNP in England going by what I am reading in social media.

      Every little helps, looking forward to the opposite view being put forward tomorrow by the media 🙂

    66. Marco McGinty says:

      I’m glad that the SNP are taking a stand against such barbaric practices, and I do hope the Scottish Government will tighten the relating law in Scotland.

      The Scottish Government also has to do a lot more to combat the illegal persecution of wildlife, much of it carried out by the employees and landowners of shooting estates.
      https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/

    67. call me dave says:

      For fox sake!

      https://archive.is/SQCZU

    68. geeo says:

      I am a bit concerned by the rising love from english voters, helped by the foxhunting vote decision, they may start a campaign to keep scotland forever….????

      On a more serious note, fergus the fox, falkirk fc mascot is reported to be chuffed as he has relatives all over the uk !

    69. donald anderson says:

      The Tolies say that the English foxes enjoy the chase and being torn to death by the hounds. I’d rather hunt down the redcoated riders and see if thy enjoy it as much.

    70. Dal Riata says:

      From the BBC:

      “Angus Robertson said: “We totally oppose fox hunting, and when there are moves in the Scottish Parliament to review whether the existing Scottish ban is strong enough, it is in the Scottish interest to maintain the existing ban in England and Wales for Holyrood to consider.”

      “We are in a situation where the Tory government are refusing to agree to any amendments to improve the Scotland Bill – which are supported by 58 of Scotland’s 59 MPs – and imposing English Votes for English Laws to make Scotland’s representation at Westminster second class.”

      “In these circumstances, it is right and proper that we assert the Scottish interest on fox hunting by voting with Labour against the Tories’ proposals to relax the ban.”

      “… Conservative MPs have been given a free vote on the issue but hunting supporters appear unlikely to muster sufficient numbers to win the vote now that the SNP have [?] against them.”

      (Yer occasional Slovenian also gets a mention, but heedtracker has already repeated his UKOKian ‘Don’t rise to it.’ drivel above)

      Good on ye, Angus! You’ll have the majority of the UK population on your side, at least morally.

      Go the 56! Get in there! What’s good enough for the goose, is good enough for the… fox!

      Hopefully, the UK right-wing media will self-combust such will be its rage. Indeed, that could well be a positive situation, saving thousands of poor sods from poisoning their minds by actually reading any of it.

      Maybe it’ll be on Fox News…?!

    71. john king says:

      Whoohahahaha
      I read that twitter encounter with Ian Martin
      and I see this
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YyBtMxZgQs
      hahahahahaha brilliant

    72. Ken500 says:

      Don’t vote on it. It’s a trap. Foxes and Tories are vermin. Foxes destroy wild life.

      Let them vote how they like and take the consequences. The backlash. English Laws for English folk. That’s what they wanted let them have it. Folk in England will see what they get voting Tory.
      Little Red Riding Hood. Let them destroy themselves.

      Ban it in the Scottish Parliament.

    73. Ken500 says:

      They will not get EVEL through the Commons and Cameron knows it. It was just a PR stunt to win the election. It has been thrown into the long grass. At least 20 Tories are against it and everyone else. Some Tories do not want to break the Law. Cameron is as sly as a fox and twice as dangerous,

    74. john king says:

      Training day
      ” Some constitutional moments are more equal than others.”

      Some constitutional moments are more equal than others MASSA!
      fixed that for you,
      you want the massa to give you a whuppin with a switch?
      ____________________________________________________________
      Luigi says
      “It would be hilarious if the SNP MPs stayed away during the “English” debate on fox hunting, and then duly trooped in to vote against the amendment. On a point of principle, of course!”

      I expect nothing less
      only I want our people to file in quietly vote the bastards down and leave the same way, no whooping and hollering like those clowns.
      ___________________________________________________________
      geeo says
      “On a more serious note, fergus the fox, falkirk fc mascot is reported to be chuffed as he has relatives all over the uk !”

      !!!???
      Foraging Fox Flushers Fecklessly Fighting Fallaciously Fallout Follows Facilitating Farcically Fighting Fiftyish Fearless Folk

      Oh nooooo no again
      HELLLLPPPP
      ___________________________________________________________
      DalRaita
      “Maybe it’ll be on Fox News…?!”

      Snigger. 🙂
      ________________________________________________________

    75. Mealer says:

      Fekin hilarious.

    76. JLT says:

      And so it begins. The SNP v’s The Tories. Centre-left Scotland v’s Right-wing England.

      The threads that hold the Union together are now about to start unravelling over the next year, and the ideologies of both nations should now become more visible.

      The SNP will try to tell the people of Scotland that they no longer live in a Kingdom that is fair and tolerant, but instead, are ruled by bitterness and contempt. Meanwhile, England will focus on the EU and the immigration ‘threat’, and if need be, will make sure that the rest of the UK dances to the South-East’s tune whether they like it or not.

      Interesting times ahead …that’s for sure.

    77. Ken500 says:

      Why would Scottish Nats bail out the Tories. Let them have it. English Laws for English folk. That’s what they wanted. The Scots Nats should abstain. How many folk who are up in arms in England voted Tory? Let them bear the consequences of their own action. Let them take the blame.

    78. Socrates MacSporran says:

      This post is a wee bit like trying to defend the indefensible, but, here goes.

      As someone who lives in the country, I perhaps know a wee bit more about foxes than the townies who have posted on this, and who consider fox-hunting cruel.

      The fact is, foxes are vermin, and having seen at first hand the damage a fox can do to a chicken flock, they need to be controlled.

      Some activists working towards banning fox-hunting have stressed “animal welfare” as a reason for being anti-fox-hunting. Can I tell them, since fox-hunting was curtailed by the ban – another spectacular piece of wrong-headed legislation by Tony BLiar and his government – MORE, not fewer foxes have been killed by fox-hunters.

      A fit fox, in prime condition often out-runs the pack. That same fox cannot out-run a bullet. Fox-hunting was more fox management, culling the weak and the stupid to allow the strong to survive.

      Yes, the sight of a pack of hounds catching a fox was repellant to many, but, fox-hunting with packs worked.

      Much of the distaste for fox-hunting seems to stem from “class” issues – “the unspeakable in pursuit of the uneatable”, and all that. You bet, there are some “toffs” who ride to hounds who would not be missed were they to be culled, but, fox-hunting also provides employment in the country and elsewhere.

      Riding horses to hounds has also been a factor in Britain’s success in equestrian sports such as eventing and show jumping.

      All this about “hunting pink” and white breeches – yes, I suppose it is a wee bit like watching the redcoats coming up the glen and is distasteful, but, foxes remain vermin and have to be controlled.

      I do, however, applaud the SNP’s 56 for deciding to vote on this – it demonstrates the hypocrisy of the Tories and their behaviour over the Scotland Bill.

      As for the speed with which the Tories brought forward this bill at Westminster, when compared to Holyrood’s apparent feet-dragging in terms of amending the relevant Act in Scotland – this perhaps shows the difference between what the Westminster and Holyrood governments deem to be important.

    79. gus1940 says:

      O/T

      Achtung! AchTung! Dive! Dive! Dive! – If you don’t want to be put off your breakfast steer clear of today’s BBC Breakfast – that loathesome Mone creature is on telling us how great the budget is.

    80. Mealer says:

      Ken 500 6.55
      That’s a very good point and one which I know has been taken into consideration.

    81. IvMoz says:

      @Ken500

      @Socrates Macsporran

      You both claim Foxes are vermin. They are not. End of.

      You mention townies Socrates, who are you – Farmer Palmer from Viz?

      Supporting animal cruelty tells me all i need to know about you.

      Hunting is not a sport & foxes do not deserve to die this way to satisfy the bloodlust of morons like yourselves.

    82. Ken500 says:

      Don’t vote on the Bill. Let Cameron get the backlash from the people who voted for him.

    83. stewart fae stoney says:

      I like one of the previous quotes where it was suggested replace the fox with a Tory MP, Now that would be good release Cameron and Osborne in Easterhouse and tell them to get to Govan in one piece and see how they like it,

    84. Mealer says:

      Socrates Macsporran 7.03
      If fox numbers need to be controlled,and I think they do,the way to do it is to “squeak” them in and dispatch them quickly and cleanly with a high powered rifle in the hands of an experienced marksman.

    85. Dorothy Devine says:

      I am undoubtedly ignorant so perhaps someone more erudite can tell me the difference ‘twixt a beautiful wild animal and vermin.

    86. nycgype says:

      Yesterday was the first day that I really stopped to ponder this question and I came to the same conlusion. I find it a distasteful past-time but to be honest I am not as outraged as others might be. My main concern is how we achieve independence.

      The Tories have made it perfectly clear they will not be playing by any rules which is exactly what we all expected. My conlusiin was, this is a chance to take the moral high ground, give the Tories a bop on the nose and infuriate the commentators and MSM. We are going to be f’d over anyway so much better to set the cat amongst the pidgeons. Hopefully more eyes will be opened as to how we are treated in this great family of nations.

      Keep up the good work, tally ho.

    87. starlaw says:

      SNP voting against fox hunting is the decent thing to do. Fox’s may be classed as vermin, but the would be hunters are in a class of their own, I used to see them in what is now Livingston, a bunch of social climbers riding hired horses and hired red jackets, the jacket appeared to be better thought of than the horse. I witnessed an incident near what is now Butlers Place, a horse got caught up in barbed wire and threw the rider, his pals were more concerned about a half inch tear in his jacket, while nearby farm workers were left to deal with the horse. I was glad to see the back of these scum.

    88. Mealer says:

      Dorothy Devine 7.33
      When a fox is killing a lamb it is vermin.When it’s controlling the rabbit population it is not.

    89. Grouse Beater says:

      I like one of the quotes where it was suggested replace the fox with a Tory MP

      Liam Fox?

      Putting down a rabid anti-independence Scot should be done humanely.

    90. Scott Borthwick says:

      Although you put it in a footnote, I think the position of the Scottish Government on the fox hunting ban in Scotland may well serve to illustrate that there are no ‘English only’ laws that have no impact on Scotland. Indeed, the best way to deflect criticism for their stance on the upcoming Westminster vote would be to reopen the Scottish debate on fox hunting.

      As far as I can see, the 2002 legislation is a failure. This debate should allow the Scottish Government to address that.

    91. @Dorothy Devine says:

      I am undoubtedly ignorant so perhaps someone more erudite can tell me the difference ‘twixt a beautiful wild animal and vermin.

      Nothing just like weeds versus flowers as each has its place in our biodiversity.

    92. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Iv Moz:

      You dispute my writing foxes are vermin.

      My copy of the Concise Oxford English Dictionary, page 1364:
      “vermin – mammals and birds injurious to game, crops etc, e.g., foxes, rodents and noxious insects”.

      Leaving aside your pathetic description of me, based on your own prejudices, you go on to suggest: ” foxes do not deserve to die this way to satisfy the bloodlust of morons like yourselves”.

      I accept there are serious issues as regards how the kill happens when a pack finally catches-up with the fox. I acknowledge a single shot from a rifle is probably a cleaner, quicker end, but, whether caught by the pack or shot, the fox still ends up dead.

      But: “bloodlust” and “moron” – Aye right!!!

      I do not support animal cruelty. But, animal cruelty also refers to a fox getting into a chicken coop and massacring every chicken there, or taking a weak young lamb.

      When you resort to gratuitous insults, you weaken your case.

      Mealer:

      I agree, a speedy despatch from a high-powered rifle, in the hands of an expert marksman is probably the best way to get rid of foxes. My point was – more foxes have been killed since the change from pack hunting to shooting, and this fact seriously weakens the case put forward by part of the animal welfare lobby.

      As I said in my previous post, the unspeakable in pursuit of the uneatable might offend some people, but, as fox management and allowing the stronger foxes to survive, it worked better than shooting the lot of them has.

    93. Haggis Hunter says:

      This article is typical of Wings.
      I’m not wealthy, but if Stu had another crowd fund today I would give him every penny I have.

    94. desimond says:

      You expect Labour to oppose..paint me 50 shades of astonished

    95. Juteman says:

      So the SNP block the fox hunting bill. Cameron then announces that he is abandoning most of the 12 billion of welfare cuts as the SNP will be able to block most of those bills.
      The media do their duty by making a big deal of how the Scots have made these changes possible. Scots make a big impact at Westminster, proving that the Union works!
      Just a thought.

    96. Geoff Huijer says:

      SKY News going ‘not about animal rights about SNP throwing weight around’ type piece now with Joey Jones giving it ‘SNP tying themselves in knots trying to justify etc’.

      So same old SNP bad then. Brian May on in a mo.

      Even the RSPCA celebrated!

      https://twitter.com/RSPCA_official

    97. Les wilson says:

      Excellent article Stu, typically Scottish snub to I Martin, made me laugh first thing this morning!

      On subject I deplore ALL blood sports, allowing foxes to be ripped to pieces, shooting birds on Scottish moors, ditto deer, also killing badgers etc etc and just because they can.

      What kind of mind loves killing helpless animals, it is truly sick, to me anyway.

      Nicola this morning said she has had unprecedented English requests to vote against this, so she is heeding these.
      It does beg a few questions, if the SNP popularity rises in England? Good, That would be unforeseen consequences for Cameron et al.

    98. Karmanaut says:

      Dear Tories,

      The SNP have stopped you from torturing little animals for fun. But look on the bright side. Labour will abstain from the welfare cuts vote, so you can still hurt the poor.

      Every cloud… etc.

    99. Ken500 says:

      Don’t do it. It will also legitimised them voting against Scotland all the time.

    100. sensibledave says:

      Whilst we dont know if the vote will go ahead or what the outcome might be, this fox hunting issue certainly has the potential to raise some interesting issues.

      On the one hand, once again, the images of Tory Toffs riding around in red coats killing defenceless and adorable furry creatures by chasing them with hounds (and then shooting them) plays to one section of the voting community in the UK. On the other hand, we have the SNP leadership and MPs choosing to vote on a matter that is only relevant to people in England – and is designed entirely to be confrontational and make life difficult for the Government (which SNP MPs have every right to be/do under the current voting rules).

    101. Les wilson says:

      Socrates MacSporran says:

      I take issue with your last comment, ALL animals, birds, fish, etc eat others to live, it is the way of life.

      This is absolutely animal cruelty, for fun, terrifying a wee animal before ripping it to pieces, what kind of sick minds enjoy that?
      Read at the weekend that somewhere in England they are breeding foxes then releasing them to be hunted.

      That kinda knocks your comments. Also, where does this stop, shoot all our birds of prey for example! Given your reasons in your comments, this would apply, or do you like birds?.
      Or not as much fun as hearing foxes squealing to death!

      Tally ho!

    102. Les wilson says:

      Ken500 says:

      That’s a laugh, you clearly do not watch much at Westminster with that comment.

    103. galamcennalath says:

      Cameron’s current so called EVEL proposals are designed to prevent Scots voting on issues which effect Scotland. The Scotland Bill has been shredded by English MPs. Any vestige of reasonable voting has been thrown away. Consequence … SNP should now vote on everything they can.

    104. sensibledave says:

      … sorry to interrupt all this tosh with some facts but the proposed changes to the laws in England on fox hunting – are to change them to the same as the current laws in Scotland!

      Your faux outrage is laughable! The SNP have had the power to change the law in Scotland for many years and have chosen not to – so I assume that the laws you have are the laws you want? Fox hunting laws in Scotland are more relaxed than those in England!

      And, just in case you don’t believe me, Nicola Sturgeon said “Second reason is that this debate has thrown a spotlight on to Scotland’s hunting law. It’s made a lot of people think we should be tightening up our law to bring it in to line with England’s law as it stands.”

      What a joke!

    105. Ken500 says:

      Watch it all the time. Disgusting.

    106. Les wilson says:

      Luigi says:

      Yes please, that would be poetic justice!

    107. Valerie says:

      I have been really depressed between the filth of the Budget, and Greece, but last night, I properly smiled when this came out.

      Yet again, SNP show how strategic they are, they have deliberately waited until now, and mostly repeated their voluntary abstention on English only issues. However, on social media there has been a real build up of English folk screaming they must vote against.

      They and we have been shat on in the Scotland Bill, so given there is no respect, why would they not stick up a single middle digit to the gentry, to gain regard and support from those in the south who feel on this, but probably don’t follow politics!

      Get tore in, 56.

    108. Stephen Daly says:

      Nice ‘Pulp Fiction’ reference Rev!

    109. Fergus Green says:

      As a former Hunt Saboteur who took direct action in the 80s and 90s, I am proud to see the next generation of Scottish Hunt Sabs doing the right thing.

    110. orri says:

      The problem I have with people complaining about Cameron’s part in the Vow is that they got exactly what he said they would. Draft legislation that might never pass in the HoC and was near worthless as it stood. He didn’t lie, the press and the optimism of those taken in by them did that for him.

      As far as Fox hunting goes, when a pro hunting lobby approves of the state of affairs in Scotland it tends to hint that it’s the law in Scotland that needs amending. This bringing the law into line bit simply assumes that ours is set in stone and might be seen as a move to ensure that stays the case.

      Let’s not forget that the whole point of hunting isn’t killing foxes. It’s riding like idiots where ever you please and compensating the locals with token sums of money, on occasion, for the damage you cause. The reason there’s no need for urban fox hunting is because you get the Bullington Club instead where money an influence is, we’re told, enough to allow you to do anything you want. If that’s class warfare then fair enough.

    111. Calgacus says:

      These blood sport partizans are the true vermin.They slaughter everything that moves if they think it will increase their profits.

      Birds of prey, Corvidae, Badgers, Hares are all killed by these monsters in the name of sport.

      They turn our beautiful countryside into their own private slaughterhouse.

      Well done to the SNP and Wings over Scotland for fighting the guid fight.

    112. Helena Brown says:

      Dear Sensible Dave, if you have read all the comments here you will be aware that the Scottish Parliament is to revue their present Fox Hunting Laws which were put in place by the Labour/Lib Dem Coalition and are proving to be ineffectual (surprise surprise). The SNP are voting against the proposed changes to the one in England which would bring the English into line with what is here. We are about to bring our law into line with yours, so you see the problem.
      I see lots of puppies here in Scotland with Docked Tails, and the first words out my mouth to the owners are, bought it in England did you. WE do not allow tail docking, you as normal have always got a wee out.

    113. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Les Wilson:

      If I can come back:

      “ALL animals, birds, fish, etc eat others to live, it is the way of life”.

      True, I have no problem with that. However, when a fox enters a chicken coop, or takes a young, weak, lamb. It infringes on a human industry – farming.

      To the fox, the chicken or lamb it takes, is food. We, as the alpha creature on planet Earth see this is an infringement on our self-declared right to judge what is right and wrong; the fox has infringed on our territory, we must establish that right, so, the fox dies.

      I agree, a pack ripping a fox to bits is cruel and inhuman, and we, as the alpha creature should stop and be above this. But, in a way, the fox, which can slaughter a hut full of chickens, if it gets in there, perhaps has it coming.

      If your comment re foxes being reared then released into the wild to be hunted is true, it is despicable and the perpetrators should feel the full weight of the law.

      Raptors, hawks, eagles etc should be free to hunt as they wish.

      The point I am making is – for all the imperfections, hunting with hounds alone gave the fox a better chance of survival than chasing them towards guns.

      A former colleague, now sadly deceased, the son of a Huntsman, saw his career impeded by his support for hunting. He once told me, and I have no cause to doubt him, that only about one draw and pursuit in four resulted in a kill – back when hunting was hounds only.

      Today, the count is, I believe, a kill from two out of three draws and pursuits – clearly the part of the anti-hunting Act which was meant to safeguard the fox, isn’t working.

      It is, I accept, an emotive subject, but, just as SNP bad in politics isn’t entirely (if at all) true. Hunting – bad is not necessarily true.

      By the way, to those who insist hunting is not a sport. I recall a definition which read something like: “Hunting, shooting and fishing are sports – everything else (cricket, football etc) is games.

    114. Helena Brown says:

      Ah, Sensible Dave, I should have read all that you wrote. One thing you have not mentioned is that we are back to the good old days in Westminster when the Tories popped into the bar whilst the Chamber discusses anything which affects Scotland, then when the division bell rings troops through the lobby voting (whatever) down. EVEL, aye right son. We do not care for this treatment, it was dished out with the Poll Tax and you like most Imperial types see no wrong in it. Well could be the very end of the Union should you continue. A blanket ban on publicity for the SNP will not work in the end.

    115. ClanDonald says:

      Why is Michelle Money on the radio telling us how great the budget is? Doesn’t she know that when governments take tens of billions out the pockets of ordinary punters they no longer have the disposable income required to purchase tacky gel-filled bras.

      Some of these so-called business people don’t have a clue, do they? If you want to succeed in a consumer society you’d think you’d see consumer spending ability as a priority.

      And as for the pensioners who did OK out of the budget, can’t see them investing in a cleavage-enhancing device any time soon.

      Just noticed the auto correct changed Mone to Money. LOL.

    116. heedtracker says:

      On the one hand, once again, the images of Tory Toffs riding around in red coats killing defenceless and adorable furry creatures

      Its a lot more than this. Scots MP’s destroying English traditional way of life? Its a very big deal indeed for our imperial masters. Killing foxes is nothing to 56 ending a glorious English upper class tradition.

      But they love Scotland so much, they want us to stay.

      Even this UKOK creep show says its revenge by Sturgeon. Dear oh bettertogether dear

      https://archive.is/e1Jt8

    117. Les wilson says:

      I agree with others here that the SNP should vote on anything they feel will upset the Tories.

      Given what they have done ref the Scotland bill/Smith and their war against the poor.
      We should rattle their cage, every way we can. Somewhere down the line, it will really matter that the SNP show just who they represent.

    118. Jim says:

      Conservative MP Liam Fox told BBC Radio 4 people in England were “perfectly capable of electing MPs to look after their own interests”.

      “It seems that while we are trying to be reasonable to the SNP they are sticking two fingers up at us.”
      ____________________
      Either grant Scotland her independence or set up your own Parliament as part of a federal UK; in which you will have control of the same pitiful “powers” proffered up to Holyrood or maybe the sensible thing where all union members have single control over everything bar defence and foreign affairs which would be debated and agreed upon by all member states

      Or, Dry your eyes and accept that this is what you campaigned for, you reap what you so and all that jazz.

      As old Jonesey used to say, “That’s the only language they understand Sir, you see they don’t like it up ’em Sir, they do not like it up ’em!

    119. anne says:

      I applaud the SNP’s stance here – it is a judgment that Solomon could be proud of. And I hope that Holyrood moves quickly to strengthen the legislation here.

      It was very pleasing to read the supportive comments on CiF – that is before the Tory Trolls piled in after 8am!

      The SNP are playing a difficult hand well – it seems that they are increasingly acting as the true opposition in Westminster.

    120. Dan Huil says:

      Good. Westminster showed arrogance and ignorance towards Scotland during the Scotland Bill debate. The gloves are off.

    121. Jet says:

      Just to make a few points for balance I have been shooting for many years as have my father And grandfather we ate every thing we shot I shoot rabbits for small farmers and pigeons for factory’s as pest control as part of my job so I have no problem with the animal being killed in a fast humane way in principal

      I think this is a fantastic decision by the snp this act of hunting down a terrified animal with a huge
      Pack of dogs men with horses landrovers quad bikes is as far from pest control as it gets and is
      One of the most barbaric rituals this country has ever seen against animials a true look into the past when the ritch done what ever they wanted no matter how distasteful or cruel the act and the poor with bowed head and tipped cap said nothing

      This is not sport, Hunting is not a sport ,shooting is not a sport and should not be treated as one
      I was taught great respect for animals and guns this has served me well in other parts of my life
      In my case shooting is part of my job if you shoot and don’t get paid for it then it becomes a pastime
      If you target shoot then it is a competition but not a sport The taking of a life will never be a sport

      Times move on things change for everyone things that were once acceptable are now reprehensible
      This applies to all fox hunters,shooters,fishermen,farmers,landowners,and most of all politicians
      Embrace this change or perish

    122. call me dave says:

      Gary on GMS earlier berating Sturgeon for deserting her principles.

      “What next, another referendum”? he squeals…”NO” says Sturgeon.
      —————————————————————-

      Was her fingers were crossed when she said it? I’ll never know as she was away down in South Britain, in London town, ready to lecture to them later today.

      https://archive.is/vXafx

    123. CameronB Brodie says:

      I suppose it all depends on whether you see natural ‘assets’ as the sole possession of homo sapiens, to do with as required. A tiny minority of homo sapiens, at that.

      That definition of vermin. Do you reckon it was the laird who came up with that one?

      Personally I’d rather pack hunting was ended completely. Surely there is a more humane method of ‘pest control’ by now? Sorry, I’m a townie.

      Re. Westminster. Get in tae them. 🙂

    124. Famous15 says:

      Heard that nice Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland,Mr Murray on GMS and what a nice talker he is.

      I do not have a clue about what he was saying but he said it so nicely,it must have been intelligent and sensible. I believe he also supports Hearts so he must be really smooth and nice.

      Nice!

    125. caz-m says:

      O/T

      From the BBC website:

      “First minister claims Scotland is ‘northern powerhouse’.”

      “Ms Sturgeon has been invited to deliver the keynote speech at a business breakfast being hosted by Scottish Enterprise at London’s Mansion House.”

      Does anyone know where I can see this.

    126. Jim says:

      I heard on the grapevine that if the Tories successfully destroy the welfare state then they will introduce lottery funded hunts every month where one lucky member of the
      hoi polloi can apply to be hunted by the upper classes.

      If they can evade capture and obviously being ripped apart by the hounds then they will have all their debts paid off and free entry into Drastic Dave’s prize draw where they could win a years supply of tinned and dried groceries, wooooooooh.

      Starting at one pleb per month, this may become a weekly, televised event if demand for placement increases sufficiently.

    127. Robert Kerr says:

      Cry havoc! Let slip the foxes of war!

      Some strategic thinking outwith the nine dots. If Nicola ( blessed be her name ) is taking note of the sentiments of our fellows south of the non-border which doesn’t split this unitary state of ours then surely she should seriously consider permitting candidates to stand in additional constituencies and not limit her scope to the present 59.

    128. Luigi says:

      Jim says:

      14 July, 2015 at 9:34 am

      Conservative MP Liam Fox told BBC Radio 4 people in England were “perfectly capable of electing MPs to look after their own interests”.

      Now that’s one fox I have no sympathy for.

      “Release the hounds!”

    129. Sinky says:

      Famous15 says at 9.51:

      SNP and Labour in agreement over fox hunting but have noticed that BBC never gives the SNP a chance to refute anything Murray says.

      Watch / listen the next time he is on.

    130. caz-m says:

      Re: Fox hunting vote,

      To rub salt into this Tory wound, as mentioned above, the SNP MPs should troop into the chamber at the end of the debate, just in time to cast their votes.

      Is that not how Westminster works, after all, that’s exactly what the majority of Tory MPs done last week when voting on amendments to the Scotland Bill.

    131. Fireproofjim says:

      Not only is fox hunting a barbaric, cruel and bloody business, it is also useless as a means of controlling fox numbers.
      I speak as the grandson of a gamekeeper who worked nearly sixty years on an Aberdeenshire estate. He knew all there was to know about game conservation and fox control and told me a lot about it.
      Foxes have territories and when a fox dies or is killed neighbouring foxes move in. They always have larger litters than the territory can support so the surplus have to leave and move to adjacent areas where they can make a living.
      My grandfather worked in the time when a ten shilling bounty was paid by the department of Agriculture for every fox tail, but even with this incentive the fox numbers never varied much. As he said, every year new foxes arrived in his area and he shot them and made a few pounds, but next year the numbers were the same.
      So those who say hunting helps farmers by controlling foxes are talking rubbish.
      Hunting foxes is simply a statement of social superiority by those who do it. I am not a class warrior but I can find nothing good to say about this cruelty or those who pursue it.

    132. Luigi says:

      Famous15 says:

      14 July, 2015 at 9:51 am

      Heard that nice Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland,Mr Murray on GMS and what a nice talker he is.

      I do not have a clue about what he was saying but he said it so nicely,it must have been intelligent and sensible. I believe he also supports Hearts so he must be really smooth and nice.

      Nice!

      Aye, I suppose he is a bit more coherent than your typical SLABBER. It’s the same old guff, though.

    133. galamcennalath says:

      Jim says:

      “Dry your eyes and accept that this is what you campaigned for”

      We Yes voters were crystal clear about what a No vote meant, and therefore we knew exactly what they were campaigning for! And, we were right.

      However, what has also become just as crystal clear is that Unionists didn’t have a scooby what they were campaigning for! They hadn’t thought deeply about their Union and Scotland’s place, in or out. I suppose they vaguely thought a No win would mean everything reverted to some mythical point in the past where they were able to ignore events in Scotland.

      Well, they got that well and truly wrong!

      Perhaps they will develop a clear vision of what a No vote in IndyRef2 will mean, and not be so keen to campaign to achieve that!

    134. Mealer says:

      Socrates MacSporran 7.59
      You have to lock your hens up at night to protect them from foxes,whatever method of fox control is used.Unless you advocate the total eradication of all foxes,which I don’t think is your position at all.Your point about the chase ensuring an element of survival of the fittest does carry some weight,but certainly not enough to swing it for me.If this subject is to be debated on here,it’s very important that people with differing views feel free to contribute.I value your contribution.

    135. heedtracker says:

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-33516713

      BBC reprobates even permitted 12 comments too.

      Imagine a world where we elect normal people and they make common sense decisions.

      WHo knows, maybe SNP 56-57 might stop our bloodthirsty imperial masters from going to war, in hot countries, defenceless ones, that are just far enough from London to shoot back with WMD’s that none of them have.

      Tally ho! down the UKOK shitter.

    136. Dr Jim says:

      Troll Hunting?

      What about Orc Hunting, I mean (Oik Hunting)

      That could be a thing

    137. Giving Goose says:

      On LBC radio at the moment it’s all about SNP bad boys voting on English matters etc etc. SNP reverse ferrets etc.
      Someone get on the phone in if you can. The indignation from the fox hunting shires will be hilarious to listen to.

    138. Ghillie says:

      Thank God for the SNP and their moral strength!

      And how amazing and lovely to read all the happy tweets from loads of English folk, Brian May and the RSPCA!!

      It is absolutely right for our Scottish MPs to vote with their consciences on this and all issues in Westminster. The historical curtesy no longer need be observed given the apalling antics of David Cameron and his supporters.

      The Unionists wanted to keep us. Well HERE WE ARE!

      Cynical Highlander @ 7.55am and Dorothy Devine: Well said.

      I don’t like hearing the term ‘vermin’ being applied to any animal or bird. All creatures have their place in our ecosystem and an equal right to live as they must.

      If the fox population seems unballanced and unsustainable in any environment then surely a humane solution would be to trap some and inplant birth control, not cruel, barbaric hunting or ‘swift dispatch by riffle’.

      The 56 have already shown their strength, integrity and glorious sense of humour!! Keep Westminster’s feet to the fire!

    139. Brian Powell says:

      SNP website said not only were going vote to continue ban in England but look at strengthening the ban in Scotland.

    140. Nana Smith says:

      @caz-m

      Doubt Nicola’s speech will be televised. Found this for you

      http://www.snp.org/blog/post/2015/jul/scotland-real-northern-powerhouse

    141. Johnny says:

      Garve @ 10:54pm

      Bit of a difference.

      The SNP’s supporters are largely opposed to the House of Lords so they would be acting against their wishes should the accept peerages.

      On the other hand, they have here responded to what the majority of their voters would want. This is a good thing.

      Labour’s biggest downfall, if they would realise it, is having chosen to worry about what the Tories and the Daily Mail might say rather than having done what their voters (or the majority of them) might want them to do.

    142. hindmost says:

      The proposed amendment wouldn’t be considered an English only bill under Grayling’s crapfest of an EVEL proposal. Which, for me, just adds to the joy.

    143. Les wilson says:

      Socrates MacSporran says:

      Tell me the difference, do not raptors also hunt and kill? but you say their ok. Just foxes are your problem. Farmers are entitled to shoot foxes if their animals/ birds are at risk.

      I cannot see any, justification on killing animals/ birds of any kind, for fun. This is what fox hunting is about, a jolly good horse ride, jolly good run for the dogs to rip foxes to pieces.

      No matter how you waffle about it, it is not acceptable.
      I was brought up in the countryside, but taught a healthy repect for animals of any kind.
      Looks like that does not apply here.
      I respect your right to say what you feel but vehemently do not agree with them.

      Your comment about being the Alpha end of the food chain, well I remember something like that was said before…..

    144. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      If they want English votes for English issues at Westminster logically on Scottish issues in the same forum (like the Scotland Bill) it should be Scottish votes only.

      As this is very obviously not the case Scottish MPS are entitled to vote on English issues that interest them

    145. Thepnr says:

      Cameron calls off the hounds! The vote is now off, delayed until after the EVEL vote.

    146. ronnie anderson says:

      Two withdrawals on Tory Bills in two weeks , arent the Tory Gov doing well HA HA.

    147. No no no...Yes says:

      According to Norman Smith BBC News, Cameron has cancelled the Fox hunting debate.

      These SNP MPs are certainly having an impact!!

    148. heedtracker says:

      Word in my earpiece says Cons postponed Fox Hunt vote until after EVEL vote.

      Our imperial masters thinking on their feet? Their blood thirsty, English way of life protector feet.

    149. Simon says:

      Well, it’s all kicking off now.

      Fox hunting vote delayed until the SNP can be denied a vote on the issue.

      Just wondering how this will be played in the MSM up here?

    150. bugsbunny says:

      Instead of hunting foxes with hounds, can we not set a pack of hounds to eradicate and rip to shreds vermin that is plaguing this green and pleasant (Scot)land, Hard Core NO Voters?

      I see Labour Leadership Contestant Andy Burnham has promised, if elected Labour Leader, he will refuse to do an interview with the Sun Newspaper over its stance on Hillsborough.

      Because the Sun has backed his rival, Liz Kendall, describing her as the “only prayer the party have”, he replied, “I give interviews generally, and people can report my words. But I don’t do special favours for newspapers THAT ATTACK ME AND ATTACK MY PARTY”.

      It’s about time wee Nicola took a leaf out of Burnie Boys book and boycotted the BBC for what they did to Scotland.

      In the meantime however, Labours Tristram Hunt has accused the Government of an assault on the BBC claiming, “Some of the assaults which certain newspapers are leading, with the Conservative Party, against the BBC is really very worrying”.

      BOO fucking WHO.

      Stephen.

    151. Tormod Caol says:

      See that the Fox Hunting vote has been cancelled for now.
      No doubt it will be revived if/when *they* get EVEL through the HoC.

    152. Robert Kerr says:

      O/T

      Happy Bastille Day to all our French friends including of course one MSP.

      Vive La France, Vive les liens anciens entre la France et l’Ecosse

    153. Barontorc says:

      Over the past year or so I have been scratching my head in wonder that we have just meekly adopted the whims and fancies of what the UK decides is to be done and there is narely any sense of – forget that, this is our country, we are a sovereign people – Robert Peffers has ably made this point – ‘we’re going down this different road, not yours’ – is long overdue in the making.

      There is the voting balance created by quite a few different influences and we’re on the cusp of independence, but not yet certain, and the brakes are put on by our personal attitude, some will call it kow-tow, which seems to immediately offend some, but even that depicts the condition that binds us.

      Such an off-the-wall item as fox-hunting, capable of ripping apart this rotten UK mechanism is indeed natural justice at play and Rev Stu’s invite to stick EVEL where the sun don’t shine is most cogent. GIRFUY!!!

    154. Nana Smith says:

      Pete Wishart ?@PeteWishart · 6m6 minutes ago

      There now will no longer be a vote on foxhunting tomorrow. Incredible! Tories descend into chaos with this as well…

    155. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Definition of ‘vermin’, from my Apple desktop app:

      vermin |?v?rm?n|
      noun [treated as pl. ]
      wild mammals and birds that are believed to be harmful to crops, farm animals, or game, or that carry disease, e.g., foxes, rodents, and insect pests.
      • parasitic worms or insects.
      figurative people perceived as despicable and as causing problems for the rest of society

      I think that last definition would describe a certain brand of MP. Thankfully, we only have one of them in Scotland.

    156. Bill McLean says:

      sensible dave – who introduced the current Scottish fox-hunting legislation? It is currently under review. No concern for democracy to be tolerated in the UK either then Mr Dave – who would have thought it? Living in the south of England may make you omnipotent but apparently not omniscient!

    157. Luigi says:

      Nana Smith says:

      14 July, 2015 at 10:53 am

      Pete Wishart ?@PeteWishart · 6m6 minutes ago

      There now will no longer be a vote on foxhunting tomorrow. Incredible! Tories descend into chaos with this as well…

      Hilarious, I’m glad that tory fox has been shot. 🙂

      RE: EVEL – the tories have to answer the big question:

      Do they want an English parliament or not?

      If yes, fair enough they should go for it. But what they will not get away with is trying to change procedure to make Westminster a formal English parliament (it’s already a defacto one).

      Cameron should now put up or shut up.

    158. Barontorc says:

      Just on BBC4 news at 11.00 – foxhunting vote is postponed till after the EVEL vote, we therefor now have an English Parliament within the UK Westminster Parlaiment – the Union of Parliaments is now defunct.

    159. BrianW says:

      Am I seeing things or did Mr Murray opt not to go down the SNP Bad route:

      Seen this attributed to Mr Murray @ 9.22am – http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2015/jul/14/sturgeon-explains-snp-u-turn-decision-to-vote-on-foxhunting-in-england-politics-live

      “The Conservatives have a majority of 12. They could win this vote tomorrow, if they so wished to do so. The fact that they’re not is because they have their own backbench rebellion going on.”

      Nah.. It’ll always be SNP Bad, but I think he raised a valid point. Doesn’t make for such a silicious story in the MSM though does it?

    160. Luigi says:

      Barely two months since the GE, and the tories are already on the run.

      Now, if only Labour can swallow their pride, work with the SNP and get their act together, they can give Cameron and his cronies a truly awful time.

    161. Robert Peffers says:

      @Derek Russell says: 13 July, 2015 at 10:15 pm:

      “I’ve also read that the number of foxes killed has increased since the Protection of Wild Mammals (Scotland) Act 2002 came into force.”

      Oh! Come on, Derek, Assuming that any justification for killing foxes is based upon the premise that foxes need culled because they kill lambs and chickens then the fact that the numbers killed has increased is logically a good thing.

      I was born on a farm and have lived most of my life in rural, or semi-rural areas. I know that most opinions I see expressed on this subject are sadly misinformed. First of all if you ask a country vet who has carried out post mortems on foxes you will learn that the average foxes diet does NOT consist of chicken or lamb.

      The truth is that if a fox either risks being attacked by ewes, (they are excellent mothers), or risks being attacked by farmers or farm dogs, while raiding a hen house, then that fox will likely be old, infirm or ill and unable to access its normal diet. Humane killing is thus a mercy.

      “I’m definitely not in favour of hunting for sport, but come on. Stones and glass houses?

      Also be aware the Scottish act was a private members bill and was enacted by a Labour administration. It has long been on the SNP SG’s list for review as it is more lax than the present UK government act. It was the SNP’s intent to strengthen the Scottish Act but events at Westminster have now overtaken that review.

      However, things have changed due to the referendum result. The UK campaign saw them use every, (mostly underhand), tactic to persuade, (force), Scots to remain an integral part of the Union and to send our representatives to the United Kingdom Parliament as full and equal, democratically elected, members of the United Kingdom Parliament.

      So now the UK have what they campaigned for. Our democratically elected members of the United Kingdom parliament are there as fully equal members of that parliament and they would be acting against the vow they took on being sworn in as members if they did not fully participate in the parliament they were elected to serve in.

      Which brings us to, “EVEL”, as there is no such thing as a parliament of England, There can be no such thing as an elected member of a parliament of England and no such thing as an English only matter in a United Kingdom Parliament.

      No one, least of all myself, would deny the English their own, properly elected as such, Parliament of England, provided it was situated well outside our United Kingdom Parliament.

    162. sensibledave says:

      To all of you that still haven’t “got” the issue regarding the potential vote on fox hunting in England, let me try and spell it it out for you.

      For all of the time that the SNP have been in government, the laws on fox hunting have been more “relaxed” than they are in England.

      The SNP government has had the power to change the law in Scotland for many years and did nothing!

      All of the commenters ranting on about blood thirsty Tories in England should direct your comments to your SNP government – because of your more “relaxed” laws.

      I don’t suppose any of you will have the honesty to own up to the fact that you have completely misunderstood the situation and accept the complete, total hypocrisy that has been demonstrated by so many of you here.

      Finally, over time, politicians and governments gather a history and a record. Governments and individuals can be called to account for their actions rather than just their words. People in the UK, including Scotland can look at what the SNP government actually do rather now than just listening to their words. They will now be able to see, just like so many other politicians, Ms Sturgeon’s words and promises are as unreliable as any others.

      She told the whole of the UK that the SNP would not vote on English only matters – and, her we are, just a few weeks later, and she throws that promise “under the bus” purely for political expediency.

      Of course she is entitled to do whatever she wants, and the rest of us, including voters in Scotland, are entitled to decide what we make of her morals and ethics on the basis of her actions.

    163. heedtracker says:

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33520547

      Check it out. Cammers hasn’t bottled it again, its an SNP U-turn.

      Just when you think BBC creepshow can’t get any creepier…

    164. Luigi says:

      The EVEL vote will present another opportunity to stuff the tories. There are enough dissenters and the DUP also has serious concerns about the proposals.

      Come on Labour, try to be an effective opposition.

    165. Luigi says:

      I wonder if future historians will write about the humble fox that started the break up of the union! 🙂

    166. Colin says:

      Except the vote isn’t going to happen now. Not this side of EVEL anyway.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33520547

    167. Giving Goose says:

      sensibledave

      Remember that English MPs largely stayed out of the debates on the amendments to the Smith Commission tabled by the SNP, then we had to watch as they all trooped into the chamber to vote down the amendments en mass. Nice demonstration of democracy on show then (Not!). So what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

    168. heedtracker says:

      sensibledave says:
      14 July, 2015 at 11:10 am
      To all of you that still haven’t “got” the issue regarding the potential vote on fox hunting in England, let me try and spell it it out for you.

      You are just SO out of your league chum:D

    169. Ken500 says:

      Don’t do it. You will lose the upper hand, the upper moral highway, about something the majority in Scotland are not bothered about. ‘Give them enough rope’

      Isn’t Westminster in recess?

    170. sensibledave says:

      … It is so hard for me to be humble!

      Yesterday, on the “There goes Another One “, at 10.12, I wrote: “In this case, if the SNP is perceived to have the casting vote and, as a result, it is perceived that the vote will be lost then the bill’s supporters will want it withdrawn until EVEL is passed. So, paradoxically, if the SNP want to push forward with the introduction of EVEL then, somewhat ridiculously, potentially voting against fox hunting in England will probably do the trick methinks.

      So in just a few hours, Nicola Sturgeon has demonstrated that she cannot be trusted to keep her word and that she will do anything for political expediency – whilst achieving absolutely nothing.

      I wonder what the average No voter in Scotland thinks of her morals and ethics now?

    171. indigo says:

      I noticed that u-turn reference on the BBC too heedtracker, it’s a disgraceful misrepresentation of what’s happened

      It’s fascinating watching this all unfold, it’s as though the Tories & SNP are playing a game of chess at the moment, the strategising that’s going into these decisions is very precise.

    172. Proud Cybernat says:

      Why do these Tory eejits think the SNP should not vote on English-only matters? And why are there English-only matters in a UK parliament? It’s a UK Parliament FFS. If they don’t want Scottish MPs voting on English-only matters then they should get their own devolved parliament away from WM and get these matters devolved to that English Parliament.

      If they don’t do that then TOUGH. We’re entitled to vote in any and every Westminster Bill. You wanted Scotland to stay in your decrepit Parliament. So here we are. Suck it up.

    173. frazer allan whyte says:

      Please, after the SNP have helped solve the English fox hunting problem could they do something about Morris dancing?

    174. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I don’t know enough about how Westminster works, but, couldn’t the SNP, or perhaps an individual SNP MP place a Bill before parliament calling for the setting-up of an English Parliament, within a Federal UK.

      Then, when the Tories, probably backed by the Labour and Lib Dem MPs vote it down, the SNP can really make hay.

    175. Alex Waugh says:

      IMO Holyrood should now pass a complete ban on hunting foxes with dogpacks asap. It’s the only way to regain the moral high ground so that when this comes back – and it will – the SNP can say, preferably on billboards across England, to Brian May, Paul McCartney et al (let’s address them personally – never underestimate the clout of celebrities among the ‘lumpen proletariat’), “Sorry, we did try but Cameron has removed our right to vote by waiting until EVEL got hustled through. Meanwhile we have put our own house in order.”

      Doing so offers principled support to majority English opinion while underlining how cowardly and treacherous the Tories are. We really need the English people to see that it’s not Scots v them; it’s all of us , every decent person on these islands, v the scum in Westminster.

    176. Nana Smith says:

      sensibledave says

      She told the whole of the UK that the SNP would not vote on English only matters – and, her we are, just a few weeks later, and she throws that promise “under the bus” purely for political expediency

      From an article in the scotsman

      Monday 26 January 2015
      The First Minister appeared to put her desire for Scottish independence on hold and made her immediate priority working with Labour, the Greens and Welsh Nationalists Plaid Cyrmu to reshape politics across the UK and end austerity.

      She restated that scrapping the Trident nuclear deterrent is “an absolute priority” but also made it clear her party intends to vote on more English-only matters other than health including taxation to make sure the UK is more progressive. Ms Sturgeon dismissed suggestions that Scotland could declare independence without a referendum.

      Tally ho!

    177. Robert Kerr says:

      @frazer allan whyte

      Does Morris dancing involve exploitation of Minors?

    178. Luigi says:

      sensibledave says:

      14 July, 2015 at 11:28 am

      … It is so hard for me to be humble!

      Yesterday, on the “There goes Another One “, at 10.12, I wrote: “In this case, if the SNP is perceived to have the casting vote and, as a result, it is perceived that the vote will be lost then the bill’s supporters will want it withdrawn until EVEL is passed. So, paradoxically, if the SNP want to push forward with the introduction of EVEL then, somewhat ridiculously, potentially voting against fox hunting in England will probably do the trick methinks.

      So in just a few hours, Nicola Sturgeon has demonstrated that she cannot be trusted to keep her word and that she will do anything for political expediency – whilst achieving absolutely nothing.

      I wonder what the average No voter in Scotland thinks of her morals and ethics now?

      Ethics! fox hunting LOL You always seem to be way off the mark, sensibledave. You make missing the point completely an art form! Keep trying though, it’s quite entertaining: 0/10 for concept, but 10//10 for effort.

    179. gus1940 says:

      re Ian Martin – what do you expect from one of the long line of ex-Editors of that unionist propaganda rag The Scotsman which maquerades as a newspaper.

    180. Proud Cybernat says:

      Yes, Sensible Dave, politicians should keep their word, their promises, shouldn’t they?

      VOW anyone?

      The SNP have every right to vote in the UK Parliament. If the English MPs don’t like it, they should get their own devolved parliament. Simples.

    181. Anagach says:

      sensibledave says:

      Nope the sensible still remains firmly locked into the name.

      Its a free vote in the UK parliament.

      It would be bad of any MP to say they abstains because the animals being torn apart were not in their constituency, so they have no moral obligations.

      Again your selling the trop/meme that the SNP are bad which is what you do on every topic.

    182. Robert Peffers says:

      @Garve says: 13 July, 2015 at 10:54 pm:

      “Hmmm. I’m not happy, even if the article highlights a few beneficial points to this.”

      Wise up, Garve, what the hell has the HOL and honours got to do with anything? The facts are very, very clear.
      Westminster is the United Kingdom Parliament and as such there are only two kingdoms that signed the treaty that made the Westminster Parliament into a UK parliament.

      As such the Kingdom of Scotland is legally an equally sovereign partner in that United Kingdom Parliament and if the a majority of the sovereign people of Scotland mandate their elected representatives to end the union that is a perfectly legal thing to do.

      So as our elected representatives are indeed equally legitimate members of that parliament then they are actually duty bound, (they swore an oath to do so), to take part in everything in that UK parliament.

      So please let’s have no bullshit about them voting on every UK matter for there is no such thing as an English only matter outside an English Parliament.

    183. Training Day says:

      What an utter mess Westminster is. Boozed-up bawbags voting down amendments without listening to any debate, withdrawal of legislation until a section of the ‘House’ can be disenfranchised allowing that legislation to pass, and an ‘opposition’ party which ‘backs not opposing’ punitive and vindictive cuts.

      A sorry, disreputable, corrupt to the core midden. Our SNP MPs deserve better than to have to breathe the same air.

    184. sensibledave says:

      Proud Cybernat at 11:29 am Wrote:

      “Why do these Tory eejits think the SNP should not vote on English-only matters?”

      Err, because Nicola Sturgeon said she wouldn’t. And its not just “tory eejits”, its everyone in the UK that foolishly believed her.

      But hey, what should we expect, she is just another lying, unprincipled politician, corrupted by power and opportunity. We will all listen to her promises in the future with a somewhat more cynical ear. A real shame. I really thought she was going to be different.

    185. orri says:

      Murray is, unsurprisingly, wrong. The majority of 12 in this issue is meaningless because of the potential number of Conservative MPs who would vote against this virtual repeal on a free vote. Remove the 56+ Scottish MPs and those from NI who might oppose it and that becomes less of an issue.

      If anything this whole thing illustrates why Conservative MPs would be fools to vote for EVEL and perhaps why it was rushed in as fast as possible. Or perhaps the Fox hunting vote is a cunning plan designed to cause trouble given the reference to the law in Scotland. A more polite version would have been for time to be given to Holyrood to amend the law in Scotland or even reach a common UK wide agreement on what it should be.

      Looking ahead it’s possible that there might be an anticipation of rebellion and even outright defection to UKIP around the EU referendum. Something EVEL might help mitigate given it degrades the importance of the governments lobby fodder.

    186. Onwards says:

      There seems to be some tactical thinking behind this.

      EVEL within Westminster will undoubtedly lead to 2 different classes of MP as so many English bills indirectly affect Scotland.

      Why would Scots want to accept second class status ?

    187. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Nice ‘Pulp Fiction’ reference Rev!”

      Glad someone noticed 🙂

    188. caz-m says:

      Thanks Nana Smith for Nicola link.

    189. Robert Peffers says:

      @Socrates MacSporran says: 14 July, 2015 at 7:03 am:

      “This post is a wee bit like trying to defend the indefensible, but, here goes.

      As someone who lives in the country, I perhaps know a wee bit more about foxes than the townies who have posted on this, and who consider fox-hunting cruel.”

      The reason you find it like defending the indefensible, Socrates, is quite simply because it is indefensible.

      Furthermore, while you may be a country dweller you know squat about the life and habits of foxes. Go ask a Veterinary Surgeon what a fit and healthy fox diet consists of and it is NOT either Lamb or chicken. In fact foxes will eat almost anything they can get but no sane fox will get too near a lamb or it risks getting attacked by a very determined ewe and no sane fox goes near a farmyard as they risk a farmer’s gun or attacks by farm dogs.

      The closest a fax will go to a lambing flock is to the afterbirth’s that are free from risk of attack. The only foxes to go for lambs or chickens and those unable to access the normal fox diet due to some incapacity.

      So, country boy or not, you are talking pish.

    190. sensibledave says:

      Do try and keep up people.

      It is illegal in both Scotland and England for a hunt to set the hounds on a fox and “rip it to shreds”.

      The proposed changes in England would not have changed this – merely the rules about the number of hounds that can used to flush out the fox before its shot. And the changes would simply have brought England into line with our much more advanced and caring Scottish brethren.

      Does anyone here not yet “get” that?

      Please stop the ridiculous moralising and go and shout at Nicola Sturgeon for her complete uncaring attitude towards our cuddly foxes in Scotland – such that thousands of foxes have been killed on her watch!

      This is getting embarrassing.

    191. CameronB Brodie says:

      “Glad someone noticed”

      I didn’t want to be seen as being frivolous. 🙂

    192. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dorothy Devine says: 14 July, 2015 at 7:33 am:

      “I am undoubtedly ignorant so perhaps someone more erudite can tell me the difference ‘twixt a beautiful wild animal and vermin.”

      Nah! You’re not ignorant, Dorothy, and you make a very intelligent point. The definition of, “vermin”. is – a pest, such as insects and rodents; of persons it is someone who is dangerous to society. What is generally not understood about foxes is that a healthy fox is not a pest but one that cannot get free access to their normal diet will, of necessity, become a pest.

      It will also be in a state of utter misery both by its handicap and by the hunger that handicap causes. To put it down humanely is a good thing. To set hounds upon it and tear it apart while alive is despicable.

      Please do not listen to those, “wise”, country person’s who claim anyone who disagrees with them are ignorant, “Townies”. My credentials are I was born and brought up on a farm and have spent most of my life living in the countryside, (and for a while my girlfriend was a vet who did many post mortems on all sorts of domestic and wild creatures).

    193. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      @sensibledave

      It is not about foxes – it is about EVEL. That is why the Tories introduced it so quickly and why the Tories have now dropped it.

      EVEL is the issue that will break Westminster and will lead to indyref2 being in all the Indy parties manifestos next year.

      Hence, it is this issue that will ultimately break the Union.

      Do keep up – the SNP are away ahead of you – and the Tories.

    194. ronnie anderson says:

      Iain Stewart ( mundells moothpiece) on Daily Politics .[ the SNP are playing politics]. Whit a political party playing politics in the Mother of ALL Fuckup Parliaments,who’d hiv thunk it.

      Wee note to Iain Stewart SNP dont play at politics, they treat them seriously clap clap.

    195. Fireproofjim says:

      I note the Tories have now withdrawn the Fox hunting bill.
      A victory for humanity.

    196. Proud Cybernat says:

      @Sensible(?)Dave

      “Err, because Nicola Sturgeon said she wouldn’t. And its not just “tory eejits”, its everyone in the UK that foolishly believed her.”

      Traditionally the SNP did not vote on matters that affected other parts of the UK. That policy changed when David Cameron stood outside 10 Downing street on 19th September last year and introduced EVEL.

      You don’t seem to have a problem with the Tories voting down every amendement of the Scotland Bill when they have but ONE MP here in Scotland. What’s your response to that? Let me tell you–“We’re one UK and, as such, the UK Govt. is mandated to pass laws in Scotland.” Right–so it’s one UK parliament and the MPs from Scotland have EVERY damn right to vote on ANY Bill that is presented before them. That’s the truth of the matter.

      If you have an issue with Scots voting on English matters then you should be looking no further than David Cameron to pin the blame. If you don’t want Scots voting on English matters then England has to establish its own devolved parliament (just as the Scots have done). Westminster is NOT the English parliament–it is the parliament for the whole of the UK and all MPS therein are equal.

      Get over it.

    197. red sunset says:

      Ref the comments about foxes taking lambs etc.

      It’s much more common for crows to attack newborn lambs. They go for the eyes and the bum.
      Then the farmer needs to put that lamb out of its misery, and loses that year’s investment in the ewe.
      As well as being distressing to the farmer.

    198. sensibledave says:

      Anagach says: 11:53 am
      sensibledave says:

      You wrote: “Again your selling the trop/meme that the SNP are bad which is what you do on every topic.”

      No Anagach. I am simply holding up a mirror so that you can see the outrageous hypocrisy being demonstrated throughout the comments on this issue specifically (if you want to entertain yourself for a while, try going through the threads here and see if you can see the word “tory” without a pejorative adjective attached) .

      At a time when Scotland’s fox hunting laws are, have been and continue to be, more “relaxed” than they are in England, we have to read all of the bulls**t from so many commenters on how awful England is towards Foxes – without even a smidge of self awareness.

      Is there not even just a little bit of you that asks yourself how can it be that Scotland’s laws on fox hunting are more “extreme” than in England? Is that the Tories fault? How long has the SNP had the power to change things? What has the SNP actually done with the power it has on this subject?

      Zip!

    199. donald anderson says:

      Reply to Socrates MacSporran
      “I don’t know enough about how Westminster works, but, couldn’t the SNP, or perhaps an individual SNP MP place a Bill before parliament calling for the setting-up of an English Parliament, within a Federal UK.
      Then, when the Tories, probably backed by the Labour and Lib Dem MPs vote it down, the SNP can really make hay.”

      A Federal Union is still a Union with Engerland voting is approx. 10 – 1, regardless of Party. It only works in places like the USA and the Germany where the States are roughly equal and of th same country.

    200. ArtyHetty says:

      socratesmcsporran@7.03am
      “All this about “hunting pink” and white breeches – yes, I suppose it is a wee bit like watching the redcoats coming up the glen and is distasteful, but, foxes remain vermin and have to be controlled”.

      We know who the vermin are, they have two legs and speak with a plummy accent.

      We need foxes they keep rats and rabbits down. We have a huge problem with rabbits at our allotment in central Edinburgh, it’s expensive to deal with, chicken wire has never seemed so attractive, and they are very destructive. They even eat the flowers, they chew the fruit tree roots, fewer flowers means fewer bees etc, it upsets the whole natural system as well.

      Foxes have been run out of the countryside and into the city. It would be interesting to know what the fox population is and where they are most prominent.

      The SNP had to agree to vote on this. I just hope the lurve is extended to Scotland regards the unfairness of such things as having to pay loads more than England just to connect to the national grid, as well being asset stripped big style.

    201. Papadox says:

      Well done Angus Robertson on the Daily Politics! You shot the Tory fox fare and square. Lordy Rifting left mumbling and twitching incoherently, BULLs EYE sir my hat is doft.

      Jo Cockburn is I believe beginning to see the facts from the fiction but still believes a lot of the shit that Nasty Andrew Niel spouts in her she’ll like.

      How proud I am of my country and its people especially our NATIONAL MPs and the one and only Nicola. Well done one and all. You are my heroes.

    202. Marco McGinty says:

      @sensibledave
      “Err, because Nicola Sturgeon said she wouldn’t [vote on English laws].”

      I have some issues regarding the SNP, and will criticise them when I feel it is due, but I am having trouble finding a website where she has stated that the SNP would not vote on English-only matters.

      Would you be so kind as to provide us with a recent link or two, where she has stated that the SNP would not vote on English laws?

    203. lumilumi says:

      It’s all beginning to seem a bit tit-for-tat. Scotland Bill – fox hunting – EVEL.

      I shook my head at English right-wing press headlines, “SNP sabotage fox hunting vote” and similar.

      I wonder if the WM Establishment and the English press would have any problem with Scottish MPs voting on English matters if they were members of Unionist parties? It didn’t seem such a problem when most Scottish constituencies were represented by Lab/Lib/Con MPs.

      The problem the SNP have is, of course, that the Scottish fox hunting law is more relaxed and needs reviewed or they lose a lot of credibility.

    204. GallusEffie says:

      I wish foxes no ill, I’m not educated enough to speak about sensible fox management and I think fox hunting has long had it’s time.

      But I just wish there had been this much public outcry about the ILF closing in England/Wales. Guess people with disabilities are not quite as fluffy as foxes.

    205. ronnie anderson says:

      Wee message to Diddy Dave, its horses fur coarses ! who planted that Fekin Mulberry Bush in the HoC lol.

    206. Robert Peffers says:

      @Socrates MacSporran says: 14 July, 2015 at 7:59 am

      “You dispute my writing foxes are vermin.”

      He is not alone, Socrates.

      “My copy of the Concise Oxford English Dictionary, page 1364:
      “vermin – mammals and birds injurious to game, crops etc, e.g., foxes, rodents and noxious insects”.”

      Indeed, but my computerised version of the COD gives the more detailed, (cut & pasted), version thus : –

      vermin n. (usu. treated as pl.)
      1 mammals and birds injurious to game, crops, etc., e.g. foxes, rodents, and noxious insects.
      2 parasitic worms or insects.
      3 a vile or contemptible persons. b a person of this type.
      verminous adj.
      [Middle English from Old French vermin, -ine, ultimately from Latin vermis ‘worm’]

      Thus to actually be classed as, “vermin”, the subject must, by definition, “be injurious to game, crops, etc”. Indeed the examples continue with, “(a) vile or contemptible persons. (b) a person of this type”. By which the dictionary classes some human beings as vermin.

      Just as all humans are not vermin then neither are any other species all verminous.

      Which is exactly what I pointed out to you up-thread. To become vermin the fox must become a pest and healthy, fit and active foxes do not fit the criteria.

      No matter, for there can never be an excuse for harrying any wild creature. Even if the creature does eventually escapes, the hunting down itself is inhumane and could even, in itself, prove fatal.

      No one has suggested a fox that has become a problem should not be dealt with in a humane manner. In fact doing so is far more caring than allowing a sick, injured or just aged, fox that is reduced to the risky business of getting over close to flocks or farmyards to continue its miserable existence. The thing is it must be done in as humane a manner as possible and fox hunting with dogs and/or horses is not that method.

      Socrates MacSporran says:

      14 July, 2015 at 7:59 am

      Iv Moz:

      You dispute my writing foxes are vermin.

      My copy of the Concise Oxford English Dictionary, page 1364:
      “vermin – mammals and birds injurious to game, crops etc, e.g., foxes, rodents and noxious insects”.

      Leaving aside your pathetic description of me, based on your own prejudices, you go on to suggest: ” foxes do not deserve to die this way to satisfy the bloodlust of morons like yourselves”.

      I accept there are serious issues as regards how the kill happens when a pack finally catches-up with the fox. I acknowledge a single shot from a rifle is probably a cleaner, quicker end, but, whether caught by the pack or shot, the fox still ends up dead.

      But: “bloodlust” and “moron” – Aye right!!!

      I do not support animal cruelty. But, animal cruelty also refers to a fox getting into a chicken coop and massacring every chicken there, or taking a weak young lamb.

      When you resort to gratuitous insults, you weaken your case.

      Mealer:

      I agree, a speedy despatch from a high-powered rifle, in the hands of an expert marksman is probably the best way to get rid of foxes. My point was – more foxes have been killed since the change from pack hunting to shooting, and this fact seriously weakens the case put forward by part of the animal welfare lobby.

      As I said in my previous post, the unspeakable in pursuit of the uneatable might offend some people, but, as fox management and allowing the stronger foxes to survive, it worked better than shooting the lot of them has.

      Leaving aside your pathetic description of me, based on your own prejudices, you go on to suggest: ” foxes do not deserve to die this way to satisfy the bloodlust of morons like yourselves”.

      I accept there are serious issues as regards how the kill happens when a pack finally catches-up with the fox. I acknowledge a single shot from a rifle is probably a cleaner, quicker end, but, whether caught by the pack or shot, the fox still ends up dead.

      But: “bloodlust” and “moron” – Aye right!!!

      I do not support animal cruelty. But, animal cruelty also refers to a fox getting into a chicken coop and massacring every chicken there, or taking a weak young lamb.

      When you resort to gratuitous insults, you weaken your case.

      Mealer:

      I agree, a speedy despatch from a high-powered rifle, in the hands of an expert marksman is probably the best way to get rid of foxes. My point was – more foxes have been killed since the change from pack hunting to shooting, and this fact seriously weakens the case put forward by part of the animal welfare lobby.

      As I said in my previous post, the unspeakable in pursuit of the uneatable might offend some people, but, as fox management and allowing the stronger foxes to survive, it worked better than shooting the lot of them has.

    207. donald anderson says:

      British Nationalist Broadcasting Corporation just mentioned the Scottish National “ist” Party again on the one o’clock screws.

      Would anyone care to waste their time complaining to EBC?

    208. Marco McGinty says:

      @red sunset
      “It’s much more common for crows to attack newborn lambs. They go for the eyes and the bum. Then the farmer needs to put that lamb out of its misery, and loses that year’s investment in the ewe. As well as being distressing to the farmer.”

      Again, along with the fallacy that fox hunting is a valuable predator control method, there is a lot of mythology surrounding the whole “crows killing lambs” debate.

      I’m quite sure that this has happened on occasion, but it is nowhere near as common as some would have people believe, and the majority of incidents will relate to crows taking afterbirth, feeding on stillborn deaths, or severely weakened or disabled lambs that would never have survived in any case.

      The crow, a vital part of our ecosystem, is another of those unfortunate creatures classed as “vermin” by prejudiced individuals and organisations, and is often the subject of misinformation or downright lies.

      With technological advances in recent years, and with video capability being in the pockets of most people, you would think that there would be an endless stream of videos depicting these “winged menaces” rampaging through farmland, picking off newborn lambs, but there isn’t, so one would seriously have to question why the evidence is not there.

      On the fox hunting issue, as the fox is a short-distance ambush predator, and not designed for the stamina required in long-distance chases, the very idea of fox hunting with hounds is abhorrent, and it is solely down to sick individuals wanting to satisfy their bloodlust.

    209. Dunderrian says:

      It seems the Fox Hunting bill has now been withdrawn. However, I will note with interest how Scotland’s three Lib/Cons/Lab MPs vote on other so-called “English Only” issues. Will they respectfully refrain from voting? Or will they vote with their respective parties?

      I will also note with interest how they vote on the welfare cuts. It could be an interesting thing to follow throughout this Parliament, but frankly I have better things to do with my time.

    210. sensibledave says:

      lumilumi 1:07 pm

      You wrote “I wonder if the WM Establishment and the English press would have any problem with Scottish MPs voting on English matters if they were members of Unionist parties?

      Hi, times have moved on Lumilumi, many issues are now devolved to individual parliaments or assemblies and fox hunting is one such example. It completely escapes me as to why, in this new devolved Union, why a Scottish MP would care the slightest about fox hunting laws in England – when laws covering the same subject are devolved to Holyrood.

    211. heedtracker says:

      https://twitter.com/dhothersall

      It was the red tories wot won it, says Dunc. Good old SLabour, always with fingers on the uk political pulse.

    212. Robert Peffers says:

      @Les wilson says: 14 July, 2015 at 8:15 am:

      “On subject I deplore ALL blood sports, allowing foxes to be ripped to pieces, shooting birds on Scottish moors, ditto deer, also killing badgers etc etc and just because they can.”

      Les, please keep the heid and differentiate between the necessity to cull a species that has become artificially a threat to the environment. The natural Scottish habitat was the Great Caledonian Forest and there is very little of that natural habitat still extant in Scotland. Remember too that much of that habitat was destroyed within the last couple of hundred years.

      When the wealthy landlords cleared, not just the Highlands, to make way for sheep they began a process that still continues today and it is that process that has denuded our Borderer lands and Highlands to create the barren wilderness we see today.

      Sheep kill off young trees and bushes. The clearance of the land also removed all predators of the deer and now both deer and sheep are literally eating Scotland into a barren wilderness. Walk through almost a ny Highland glen and you will come across two features. Piles of stone or ruined cottages and large isolated clumps of stinging nettles.

      Both are indicators of former human habitation. Nettles grow in nitrogen rich soil and heather & bracken on nitrogen free soil. Years of dumping human and animal waste in middens causes those isolated clumps of nettles.

      The deer also destroy young trees and bushes and with no other predators than man are artificially large in numbers and, with the sheep, continuing to artificially make more sterile bleak wilderness. If we do not introduce more forest, cull the deer and restrict the sheep we will end up with a virtual hilly desert.

      Some are in favour of reintroducing long died out predators to Scotland but is it any better control than blood sports? By far the best thing to do, at least in the short term, is to humanely cull the deer and other species that harm the environment. For example the humane culling of the foreign grey squirrel has seen a resurgence of the native Red Squirrel.

      We really need to correct the dire mistakes of the past. We are not alone in this – see the example of the Australian battle with the Cane Toad that the Aussies seem to be winning at last.

      There is middle ground that abhors blood sport but recognises the need to rebalance the mistakes of the past.

    213. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ken500 says: 14 July, 2015 at 8:23 am:

      “Don’t do it. It will also legitimised them voting against Scotland all the time.”

      Which in turn will soon see them exposed to even the dimmest Unionist as the vile overlords they actually are.

    214. Robert Peffers says:

      @sensibledave says: 14 July, 2015 at 8:28 am:

      ” On the other hand, we have the SNP leadership and MPs choosing to vote on a matter that is only relevant to people in England “

      In the United Kingdom that has an elected United Kingdom Parliament but no elected Parliament of England there can be no such thing in that UK parliament than UK only matters.

      Now, as we say in Scotland, “awa an bile yer heid”, not as you may imagine an order to actually boil the topmost part of your anatomy but a suggestion you start talking actual sense for a change.

    215. bugsbunny says:

      Sensible Dave,

      Go bang your drum elsewhere. I’ve heard enough drumming and flute playing lately without you adding your Unionist bile to it.

      So are you still hoarse from singing, “Up to our knees in Fenian blood”, all weekend Davy Boy?

      Just fuck right off.

      Stephen.

    216. lumilumi says:

      The British hatred of foxes long baffled me.

      In Finnish folklore/folk tales the fox is usually the hero who outwits the other animals, especially the dumb and slow bear. The Finnish word for Aurora Borealis is “revontuli”, literally “fox fire”, caused by a fox’s tail dragging along the snow crust and making sparks.

      Then I realised that the “hate figure” in Finland is the wolf. With such a top predator lurking in the forests, foxes are positively cute and cuddly. Wolves were hunted (government paid bounties etc.) to virtual extinction in Finland (late 19th/early 20th century). Nowadays the wolf is a protected species and in the past few decades they’ve begun to make a slow come back even though they’re still extremely rare. The revival is hampered by illegal hunting – many rural Finns still hate wolves with a vengeance. They’re not usually a big danger to livestock (which are housed indoors for half of the year anyway, and the state compensates for livestock damage) but they sometimes kill hunting dogs. And then there’s the usual hysteria about kids having to walk to school while there might be wolves about. (The wolf population in Finland is maybe 250 and Finland is a fairly large and thinly populated country, maybe 1.5 times the size of GB with 5.6m people.)

      Anyway, Finns like foxes. We’ve even got some “celebrity” ones. During the summer, YLE broadcasts its morning programme from their outdoor garden studio and while they interview experts and talk about serious matters like Greek bailouts, you can see an urban fox and her pups frolicking in the background and stealing the show.

      Sometimes animal populations have to be controlled (=culled = killed). For instance, Scotland has an unsustainable deer population which hampers reforestation efforts. I’m not against that, if it’s done humanely and effectively. Apparently 65,000 foxes are killed in Finland every year (compared with a third of that number in the UK), mostly by trapping and shooting by local small-time farmers on foot. No mounted hunts here.

      Fox hunting in the UK is such a contentious issue because it’s a class issue. The traditional fox hunt (rich people riding rough-shod over all they survey) is not even very effective as a means of pest control.

      And what’s happening now is very much political. IndyRef – Scotland Bill – EVEL – fox hunts. Rich tories against ordinary people and especially the people of Scotland. Power struggles, “sabre rattling”.

    217. Jack Murphy says:

      “donald anderson says:
      14 July, 2015 at 1:39 pm
      British Nationalist Broadcasting Corporation just mentioned the Scottish National “ist” Party again on the one o’clock screws.

      Would anyone care to waste their time complaining to EBC?”
      I LIKE IT:–“The British Nationalist Broadcasting Corporation”.
      The BNBC. 🙂

    218. lumilumi says:

      @sensibledave, 1.54pm

      Thank you for your patronising reply.

      I hope that you are aware that “this devolved union” is not new, the Scottish Parliament was reconvened in 1999. The present Scotland Bill devolves a few dribs and drabs and unuseable powers. Nothing like what a large majority of Scots seem to want and what they were vaguely promised if they voted NO.

      I hope that you are also aware that the Scottish Parliament banned fox hunting in 2002, under the Lab/Lib coalition.

      Fox hunting was banned in England and Wales by the UK Parliament in 2004. The law ended up more strict than the earlier Scottish law, which the SNP now wishes to review and make more strict (=in line with the present English&Welsh law).

      The England&Wales Hunting Act was passed with help from Labour’s Scottish MPs. Nobody thought it an outrage or “sabotage” of UK democracy at the time.

      Maybe you should consider how times have moved on. People in Scotland have embraced their devolved Parliament and largely happy with it and the Scottish Government, especially after the SNP won democratic (proportional representation) elections and have governed well – better than Lab/Libs before them.

      Scotland and England are on different political trajectories. Belittleling and demonising Scottish politicians and their voters will not heal the union.

    219. Edward says:

      I understand that Mhairi Black just gave her maiden speech and it was a belter!

      Any chance of someone getting a clip of it, so we can see?

    220. Croompenstein says:

      @Edward –

      http://goo.gl/3PTjUX

    221. Edward says:

      Thanks Croompenstein, appreciated

    222. orri says:

      Just remembered that bit in the “Orange Torch” that went as far as to refer to Sturgeon as a vixen. Apart from the fact that it kind of gives her a kind of sexy appeal and is the name of a DC superheroine it’s kind of ironic this issue has been raised now. Hell even this image, https://archive.is/co5su does little to counter the idea of her as some kind of vixen. It’s the kind of codename you’d expect a member of La Resistance to have had in WWII.

      Come to that from my brief knowledge of welding I’d have though an orange torch would be fairly useless. You’d need it to be a bright blue verging on white to get the job done.

      As I may have said earlier though this actually does have an impact on Scotland as it claims to be bringing the law in England and Wales into line with that in Scotland at a time when, if the SNP are to be believed, Holyrood is actually considering making that in Scotland as strict as that in England and Wales. If that is genuine then any change in the law outwith Scotland might have a consequential effect on how far Holyrood may change our own laws.

    223. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Apart from the factual error – William Wallace was born in ELLERSLIE, near Kilmarnock in Ayrshire, not in Elderslie – what an absolutely belting speech.

      Well done Mhairi – gaun yersel Hen.

    224. Jim says:

      Croompenstein says:
      14 July, 2015 at 4:07 pm

      @Edward –

      http://goo.gl/3PTjUX
      ______________
      Very emotive speach but whatever you do, don’t fucking clap you oiks.

    225. lumilumi says:

      @Croompenstein, 4.07pm

      Thanks for the link to Mhairi Black’s maiden speech.

      What a belter, I wish I could’ve been as passionate and articulate at 20 – or even now. 😀

      Madam Deputy Speaker got the last word, castigating the SNP MPs for applauding. Only bellowing “hear, hear”, booing and hissing allowed. Go figure.

    226. sensibledave says:

      lumilumi 1.54

      You wrote “Belittleling and demonising Scottish politicians and their voters will not heal the union.”

      I really wasn’t trying to be patronising, but with respect to your quote above – please spare me the sentiments. This thread, like so many others, is just full to the brim of belittling and demonising of almost every politician that isn’t a member of the SNP.

      These last two days will be remembered for three things. Firstly, the moment when all the commenters above that were spouting their insults about the English fox hunting bill, the nasty Tories, etc – came to the awful realisation (albeit incredibly slowly) that the bill only relaxed the laws to the extent of the Scottish laws! The laws that the Scottish Governments have had the power to change since 2002 and done nothing!

      Secondly, it will be remembered as the day that Nicola Sturgeon demonstrated she is just another corrupt politician that will betray basic principles of honesty and decency for the sake of scoring political points – only to discover that she didn’t even score the point.

      Thirdly, it will be remembered as the day that the SNP demonstrated to voters throughout Scotland and the rest of the UK that they are as untrustworthy, unscrupulousness and as corrupted by power as all the other parties. (please note that the “all the other parties”)

    227. Famous15 says:

      “Hear,hear!” Is bettter than clapping?

      After the headmistress scolded the uncivilised SNP MP’s I did hear a rather acceptable “Aye ! Right” Could be the start of a tradition?

      BBC saying the “nationalists” in u turn. How did i just hear that without a licence? The neighbours must have their TV too.loud.

    228. David hammond says:

      Don’t think Cameron bottled it and possibly some to conservatives will be delighted.The vision of toffs in red jackets was all very well but in fact the proposals,if anything would have been more stringent than is presently in force in Scotland. The argument against the government’s moves towards EVEL was ” the SNP do not vote on English only matters” that argument has now been made redundant. I don’t understand why the SNP threw away this point of principle .

    229. Andy-B says:

      I’m pleased that the SNP decided to heed the outcry from our English friends to help block the “Tally Ho Brigade” on fox hunting.

      It shows that although our main objective is independence for Scotland, we can help when called upon, if the cause is a just one.

      Like bullfighting, fox hunting has no place in a modern educated society, killing for sport, should be relegated to our past.

    230. Petra says:

      Wikipedia: William Wallace was a member of the lesser nobility, but little is definitely known of his family history or even his parentage. Blind Harry’s late-15th-century poem gives his father as Sir Malcolm of Elderslie, however William’s own seal, found on a letter sent to the Hanse city of Lübeck in 1297, gives his father’s name as Alan Wallace.

      This Alan Wallace may be the same as the one listed in the 1296 Ragman Rolls as a crown tenant in Ayrshire, but there is no additional confirmation. Blind Harry’s assertion that William was the son of Sir Malcolm of Elderslie has given rise to a tradition that William’s birthplace was at Elderslie in Renfrewshire and this is still the view of some historians, including the historical William Wallace Society itself. However, William’s seal has given rise to a counter claim of Ellerslie in Ayrshire.’

    231. Mark says:

      The SNP have a fine record of looking after the welfare of foxes. Stretches all the way back to…. Yesterday afternoon

    232. Tackety Beets says:

      I appreciate Ken500’s point/advice to SNP “don’t do it !”

      Well Ken , maybe the SNP decision to proclaim their intention to vote against the Fox legislation and it’s consequecial withdrawal by the Tories was maybe a very , very good calculated decision by the SNP ?

      It now annoys me that All this MSM crap is total pants as the SNP have not actually as yet Voted on an English only matter.
      Have the MSM Beeb etc asked the LabConLib parties on their Scottish constituent MP voting records on English matters ….. Now that is hypocracy as we all know a LabConLib MP voting was accepted.

    233. crazycat says:

      @ sensibledave

      On the basis of your posts here – which is all I have to go on – I think you may be missing the point.

      It is well known that David Cameron would like to remove all the obstacles to fox-hunting in England, but even he is hesitant, knowing that there is widespread public opposition. The now-abandoned attempt to “harmonize” the legislation with that in Scotland (which I personally have never considered adequate, though I recognize that tightening it is not as much of a priority for the SG as I would like) is no more than a foot in the door to that end.

      That is why it is important to show him that there is opposition in the Commons too, even if he tries again after having restricted voting rights for non-English MPs. His tactics must be opposed, as well as his strategy and aims, so although it would be better in every way for the law in Scotland to be stricter, there is nothing hypocritical about helping to make him back down.

    234. CameronB Brodie says:

      sensibledave
      For the sake of argument, lets say that all politicians are of equal moral value and have an equal voice in a democracy. Why would you have a problem with SNP MPs performing the role they were elected to perform at Westminster, i.e. represent their constituent’s democratic mandate.

      Remember, the UK is a unitary state and England does not have an English parliament. The Union was saved last year, apparently by some bloke called Motley, ergo Scotland chose to continue sending MPs to Westminster, as part of a Better Together UK. So what’s your problem?

    235. donald anderson says:

      Reply to CameronB Brodie

      The problem is that there still is an English Parliament. It is called Westminster and i often described as such at home and abroad..

    236. CameronB Brodie says:

      donald anderson
      Shhhh, I was hoping Dave hadn’t spotted that Donald. 😉

    237. sensibledave says:

      Cameron B Brodie @ 11.06

      You wrote “For the sake of argument, lets say that all politicians are of equal moral value and have an equal voice in a democracy. Why would you have a problem with SNP MPs performing the role they were elected to perform at Westminster, i.e. represent their constituent’s democratic mandate.

      Err, I don’t. If Nicola Sturgeon had told her constituents that the SNP MPs would vote on English only matters – I wouldn’t have a problem at all. She didn’t. She lied.

      All in all, the whole fox hunting issue is of no great import in the scheme of things. More importantly for voters everywhere, Ms Sturgeon has demonstrated that neither she nor the SNP can be trusted to keep their word (maybe just like all other politicians).

      If the SNP strategy was to disrupt the passing of laws that were only to do with England and of absolutely no relevance to her Scottish constituents – then, clearly, she achieved that goal in the short term. In addition, if the SNP strategy is to quicken the pace of the introduction of EVEL because she calculates that will assist in her main goal of Independence – then, again, she has achieved that too.

      Personally, and given that I don’t care either way whether Scotland is Independent (as is the case with most people I know), it is not me she has to convince she can be trusted – it is the 55%. I rather suspect that her recent strategy has only created more anxiety and fear of the SNP in the 55%.

    238. sensibledave says:

      Marco McGinty 12:59 pm … Oh, and Nana Smith too.

      You wrote: “Would you be so kind as to provide us with a recent link or two, where she has stated that the SNP would not vote on English laws?”

      … I can do a bit better than that Marco. Go to: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b061qs3b/newsnight-14072015

      … scroll along to 36 minutes and 40 seconds …. and watch the First Minister lying through her teeth on national TV to the whole of the UK.

      … I hope that helps clarify matters for you.

      I wonder if, as far as the 55% No voters are concerned, whether that will turn out to be a sort of “Nick Clegg – No increase in tuition fees” moment”?

    239. CameronB Brodie says:

      sensibledave

      Apologies if I missed the focus of your discontent.

      Indeed it’s a moot point, though I’m not certain this was an English only matter. I reckon it may have made it harder to tighten up Scotland’s legislation if the Tories had won a vote yesterday? I’m not suggesting this had anything to do with events, btw.

      I agree that independence will be won through persuading No voters to change allegiance, but I think you may be underestimating us up here. We suffered Project Fear and so know a good scare story when we hear one. Sorry, but yours isn’t up to much, IMHO.

    240. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “The SNP have a fine record of looking after the welfare of foxes. Stretches all the way back to…. Yesterday afternoon”

      And if they’d done anything about it before now you’d have castigated them for wasting time on a few foxes rather than the NHS, schools, blah blah blah SNP BAD. It wasn’t a priority because there’s a lot less foxhunting in Scotland than England. But in any event I’d rather they dealt with it later than never.



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