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Wings Over Scotland


Fooled you twice, suckers

Posted on September 19, 2014 by

The Daily Record, 15 September 2014:

“David Cameron , Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg have signed up to a historic joint statement that was demanded by the Daily Record on behalf of the people of Scotland.

The unprecedented agreement was signed after the Record demanded that the leaders clearly explain what they are offering so the Scottish people can decide if it is a better alternative to independence.

The agreement was brokered by former prime minister Gordon Brown and Scottish Labour. This new pledge means that all the parties with a chance of forming the next UK government have guaranteed the ‘extensive’ new powers will be put on the statute book next year.

Brown said: ‘We have agreed a timetable for that stronger Scottish Parliament – a timetable to bring in the new powers that will go ahead if there is a No vote. A White Paper by November, put into draft legislation by January.'”

Our emphases. But you’ll never guess what, readers.

“Ed Miliband will convene a constitutional convention to discuss the future of devolution and power at Westminster.

The convention will be a form of semi-representative assembly going beyond elected MPs. It would begin before the next election with every nation and region in the country engaged in dialogue with the people about how power needs to be dispersed, not just in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, but in England too.

The Labour proposal is that these debates will bring together MPs and councillors with ordinary citizens. Each region will produce a report outlining a series of recommendations, covering for example: how sub-national devolution can be strengthened; how the regions can be given more of a voice in our political system; and how we can give further voice to regional and national culture and identity.

This would be followed in autumn 2015 with a constitutional convention to determine the UK-wide implications of devolution and to bring these recommendations together.

It will discuss the shape and extent of English devolution and what reforms are needed in Westminster, as well as the case for a regionally representative Senate or for codifying the constitution.

Any recommendations would be debated by parliament.”

And that’s pretty much the same thing, right?

Well done, No voters. Well done you.

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566 to “Fooled you twice, suckers”

  1. woosie says:

    @ flux capacitor

    Barrhead Travel!

  2. Ken500 says:

    Scotland’s shame the Labour Party.

    Tories/LibDems have gone now get rid of Labour.

    Another 5/10 years should do it. Independence Day. The Unionists have blown it. The young one’s are up for it.

    Police Scotland are a disgrace. The cells are full of innocent folk, while the guilty rampage.

  3. James Caldwell says:

    I turned 65 last week and had tears in my eyes as I finally had the chance to vote for independence on Thursday.

    The yes campaign has done wonders but didn’t get through to the older voters who benefit from free bus travel, free prescriptions and the prospect of free personal care.

    Why?

  4. margaret c says:

    When will the Labour, Liberal and Tory MPs in Hollyrood start to realise that they have been elected to represent the people of Scotland – not to be just puppets of their respective parties in Westminster?

  5. Muscleguy says:

    @Kevin Evans

    The postal vote was 70% No because the majority of it was elderly. No conspiracy required. Get a grip.

  6. Fergus says:

    Eyes peeled!

    Aljazeera piece today on Salmond step down said that this was due to the “fact” that he would be too old to lead during any future referendum since this cannot take place for another 20 year! The spin continues.

  7. Chris Baxter says:

    To the ex serviceman bluedog

    Lowering the voting age helped the Yes campaign. 71% of 16-17 year old votes Yes. With them excluded the winning margin would have been greater.

    No wonder you voted No with idiocy like that.

  8. Hayzo69 says:

    In about 5 years time we’ll wonder how we lost it because everyone we talk to will be telling us they voted Yes.

  9. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    The 50+. Group

  10. ross says:

    This lie by westminster will come to nothing. They are doing nothing but talking about more powers for england.
    remember the companys who helped the government scare the people of scotland, remember the press and remember the Nos that have had a hand in embarresing us around the world. We cant sit still though, we have something and its still a danger to the state. I think weve lost the battle but the war will be won.

  11. November13 says:

    What we have to remember is that when we voted yes. We voted for Scotland. The no people voted for Britain. It really is that simple. The scenes last night in George Square show us quite clearly that we are a divided nation. You often hear unionists saying Salmond created division. My answer is that it was always there but some of us Scots were too afraid to reclaim our identity in the face of the British oppressors.

    In my workplace I now know who my enemies are. This referendum has brought out the Scots who are against their own nation. I am treated like some kind of fundamentalist rebel by some people for standing up for Scotland. Not a coincidence that the majority are soft Rangers fans who don’t like me.My hope is that there are another 20% of nos who don’t think like that. We can help them carry us over the line next time.

    I will never sing Flower Of Scotland with someone who voted no. I think they are not worthy of the sentiment in that song. I will not be actively supporting the rugby or football team until we get independence. I want a real country not a London enclave.

    There is hope that us the 45 can re light the candle of hope. Never give up good people. Our country might have abandoned us but we will not abandon our nation.

  12. Noddy10 says:

    @ Chris Baxter

    How/where did you find out that 16-17 year olds voted 71% YES?

    According to the final Ipsos MORI poll (which was 2% out), it says 16-24 year old were 53% yes. Other polls were also c50-50 for this age bracket. It was the 25-35 y/o (the Iraq generation) who were massively in favour of yes – Ipsos MORI polled 70% YES.

  13. James Dow says:

    So the soon to expire have denied the inheritors of the nation, the young. Their finest moment awaits as their best value to Scotland would be by expiring, the sooner the better you bunch of selfish arseholes.
    Fuck off there is no longer a place for you in Scotland.
    Better still fuck off to England and die there.

  14. Ghengis D'Midgies says:

    I presume this has been posted and discussed already:

    https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153135522114045&set=vb.636159044&type=2&theater

    Shows Yes votes in the NO vote pile at Dunfermline and presumably being counted as no votes.

  15. tombee says:

    50 years since the “brave” island of Malta gained it’s independence from the ‘British’ state.
    Prince William is attending their celebrations.

    I am unable to describe, ENTIRELY, my feelings at this time. Other to say that I’m raw with disappointment and extremely envious of the people of that Island. I feel trapped and subjugated by a corrupt and devious power.

    How they must revel in their freedom. CONGRATULATIONS MALTA.

  16. Jacobite says:

    I am a Scot living in London.
    I let hope enter my heart and began to believe.

    That Scotland would be free in my lifetime.
    That I could hold my head up and be proud of my origins.

    But it was tears and snotters come Friday morning.

    I feel betrayed by countrymen and the idea of Scottishness just seems an embarrassment once more.

    Time to pick up the pieces but I honestly feel stateless now….that is the true reason behind the Scots exodus from these shores. There seems to be far too few real Scots left.

  17. November13 says:

    Genghis. There is a petition on Facebook to demand a recount. I believe the signatures are 3000 so far. I think if you Google demand a recount facebook you will find it. I always said that we would lose even if we won. I thought it was suspicious that there was no exit poll. Some of the results were just beyond credibility. The fact that no people were smiling at 10·30pm on the night and Westminster saying they were relieved just says it all.

  18. tombee says:

    To James Dow,

    As a 73 year old I voted yes, as did my wife. There was not a member of my family who didn’t vote Yes.

    Whilst I understand your grief, and share in it, do not ever, sir, imply that all of the elderly are ‘arseholes’, or indeed by implication include me as one.

    By doing so you will alienate, and DEVIDE, a considerable number of your fellow Scots, as your enemies seek to do.

  19. David says:

    Muscleguy says:
    20 September, 2014 at 8:24 am

    @Kevin Evans

    The postal vote was 70% No because the majority of it was elderly. No conspiracy required. Get a grip.

    AYE RIGHT as a WoS postal vote monitor there was no possible way to break out the postal vote. The system was deliberately set up to stop this happening, so perhaps you can show some facts to support that assertion. apart from your use of a crystal ball 🙁 …sadly you are talking pish

  20. James Dow says:

    David reply Firstly I am proud of my good Scottish name and not ashamed to use it, what’s your name you prick word warrior? have you ever had a fight in your life, if not get your arse in a plane and you and I can engage in some secret men’s business Australian style, or use you real name if your game and I can look you up it would be worth a trip to Scotland to put you square. That’s one thing about Australia men are still men unlike what appears to be more than half of Scotland. Now I have a plan that could stop England dead in it’s tracks and I’m going to mention a word that all those maladjusted, pillow biting protectors of the realm MI5 who monitor this site ‘hello boys’ will understand it’s a real GAS. stay tuned.

    s

  21. Jock the Dug says:

    The old betrayed the young, the comfortable betrayed the poor and the powerful betrayed us all.

  22. November13 says:

    Yes Jock. 45% of us cared about the other 55% but not vice versa. It’s back to this banality of Britain’s got talent,austerity,wars,moaning about train fares,moaning about no pay rises,Great British bake off. That’s how no people want to live. We dared to dream of building a new country and they didn’t want to join us. Apathetic plastic Scots. May they get what’s coming to them which is more apathy and less money.

  23. Alt Clut says:

    Some of the above comments are, frankly, foolish. We need to keep calm and plan a way forward that links the Yes movement, the SNP and the ’45’.Some of us are getting started on this task.
    Childish name calling and empty threats are worse than useless and have no place in the next phase of our struggle.

    Wings is far too important a resource to let it become poisoned with false accusations and macho posturing. If that is all that you have to offer them please do the rest of us the favour of just quietly going away !

  24. Ghengis D'Midgies says:

    We can check the vote by ‘simply’ making sure that everyone who did vote yes signs the yesScotland declaration.

  25. Ghengis D'Midgies says:

    In reply to: November13

    I will sign the petition to have a recount but I’m not sure how useful it will be as many ballot papers may have disappeared as they had done on the 18th.

  26. James Dow says:

    Alt Clut, You presume too much Anything I say is no empty threat I defend any action or any thing I say or do. I might pay you more heed if you had the balls to use your own name for right now you are a nobody.

  27. Sue says:

    Surely the best thing we can all do is to enlighten, persuade and encourage our no voters. Not gloat when Westminster again shaft us. Not say “I told you so!” when the ‘vow’ is dumped. Not to call people names or talk of how they betrayed Scotland.
    Bring them with us. Then united we can vote for and fight for another referendum which will see us where we aspire to be.
    Let’s not wait another 30 years!!

  28. SqueuedPerspextive says:

    The truth is that the No campaign and their lies meant we had to go the EU court (remember ‘Clear Legal Basis’ ?)
    to get a ruling on their claims
    “Scotland cant be in the Euro” : Article 4 (we are already a member of the Euro)
    “Scotland cant keep the pound ” : We have our own mint – unless the Scottish parliament repeals Act 14.
    “Scotland cant have a currency union” : We have a currency union under Article 16.
    “Scotland has a £5bn debt hole ” : In order to ascertain our legal debt as per Article 9
    we obviously need a commissioner to total the Amount of the Equivalents as per article 15 – enter Lord Smith of Kelvin.

    But then you cant tell people the result of the ruling until afterwards – but now the deal has been done.
    Or the inside of the Sun on voting morning might have been pointing out the above Articles and their meaning.

  29. I had 2 major sums of money on a YES vote on the 18th. I was monitoring the betting activity on that night. The YES vote odds standing at 7/2 started to suddenly drift rapidly to 10/1 and more just after 10.45pm. As a gambler this tells me that inside information had been passed from those in the inside that the vote would be a NO.

  30. James Dow says:

    Tombee I respect you as a Scot and admire that you responded as you have. Obviously there are many older Scot’s like you and I applaud you commitment to our nation.
    But I was referring to the overwhelming no response from the aged section of the Scottish community. Which when you consider they are at end of life stage, the span left is off little value or consequence by comparison to the opportunity denied the inheritors the young.
    They have condemned them to a Scotland lacking aspiration.

  31. Big Jock says:

    James it stinks.It was Lamont’s face on STV and her reaction.She was already talking about a no victory! This was at 11pm. The bookies odds suddenly moving. Yet no exit poll allowe? Why not, because it might have shown something different. Its one thing to be beaten but if we have been Gerrymandered!

    Our heads went down before one count had been done! The fire alarm at Dundee and low turnout.Missing 10% of ballots? The low count at Glasgow again missing 10% on average turnout. Both the biggest yes areas. Boxes being carried by taxi in Glasgow?

    This may sound like a conspiracy, but why would anyone ever doubt the UK would just let us walk away!

  32. James Dow says:

    November13 Nobody might be singing Flower of Scotland when I release my recording of.
    O’h cowards of Scotland
    When will we see your likes again
    That gave up your nation
    You chance of salvation
    To remain a province again
    etc, etc
    Stay tuned for the release, for I will be sending it to the English, Welsh, and Irish rugby associations for consideration, Imagine the parody, I think they will love it, for it is no less than Scotland deserves.
    By the way I am a piper and will never play Flower of Scotland or Scotland the Brave again, I mean Scotland the Brave “really” find me a better oxymoron example. I might play Scotland the Scared Land of the cringing coward, however I’m waiting for the music.

  33. SqueuedPerspextive says:

    Why didn’t the sun choose sides ?
    And Why did no one talk about the money ?
    Why was Swinney not challenging the figures on this and revenue and blah blah blah.

    Because it was a waste of time. Without the legal right to challenge numbers by inspecting the Books there would be no point.
    Also the other main arguements of Westminster likewise need a legal basis and that legal basis is the Treaty of Union.

    Do you realise how Yes played such a positive campaign and stuck to the rules that when No broke them there were consequences?

    The truth is that the No campaign and their claims meant we had to go the EU court (remember ‘Clear Legal Basis’ ?)
    to get a ruling on-
    “Scotland cant be in the Euro” : Article 4 (we are already a member of the Euro)
    “Scotland cant keep the pound ” : We have our own mint – unless the Scottish parliament repeals Act 14.
    “Scotland cant have a currency union” : We have a currency union under Article 16.
    “Scotland has a £5bn debt hole ” : In order to ascertain our legal debt as per Article 9
    we obviously need a commissioner to total the Amount of the Equivalents as per article 15 – enter Lord Smith of Kelvin.

    The Edinburgh agreement was legally binding so breaches have consequences one of which is article 15 which basically says we can

    send in the auditors to check its fair. As article 258 of the EU treaty says we can (and we are bound by article 3 & 4) to abide

    by European Law

    But then you cant tell people the result of the ruling until afterwards – but now the deal has been done.
    Or the inside of the Sun on voting morning might have been pointing out the above Articles and their meaning.
    What was needed was a way to legally and officially sort out what was due according to the Treaty of Union.

    That meant we got to check the books – And what do we find?

  34. SqueuedPerspextive says:

    How would Scotland have voted if the YES campaign was given permission to break purdah and tell everyone an EU ruling –

    “Scotland is in the EU” : Article 4 (we are already a member of the Euro)
    “Scotland has the pound ” : We have our own mint – unless the Scottish parliament repeals Act 14
    “Scotland has a currency union” : We have a currency union under Article 16.
    “Scotland has no debt hole – but a large surplus ” :

    Where then YES campaign ?
    Who wouldn’t be a YES then ?

  35. SqueuedPerspextive says:

    A ruling which we are enitled to under EU article 258

    Actions for failure to fulfil obligations: infringement procedure[edit]
    Under Article 258 (ex Article 226) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, the Court of Justice may determine

    whether a Member State has fulfilled its obligations under Union law. The commencement of proceedings before the Court of

    Justice is preceded by a preliminary procedure conducted by the Commission, which gives the Member State the opportunity to

    reply to the complaints against it. If that procedure does not result in termination of the failure by the Member State, an

    action for breach of Union law may be brought before the Court of Justice. That action may be brought by the Commission – as is

    practically always the case – or by another Member State, although the cases of the latter kind remain extremely rare.[20] If

    the Court finds that an obligation has not been fulfilled, the Member State concerned must terminate the breach without delay.

    If, after new proceedings are initiated by the Commission, the Court of Justice finds that the Member State concerned has not

    complied with its judgment, it may, upon the request of the Commission, impose on the Member State a fixed or a periodic

    financial penalty.[citation needed]

  36. tombee says:

    To James Dow,

    James I hope you will reflect upon the language used by you in expressing your disappointment and obvious anger. It will not serve our cause well to denigrate those amoungst our number who chose to differ.
    Instead look to what we can do together in the future. This is but one battle lost. The fight goes on.

    Remember the story of the snake which ate it’s tail. Don’t let us become like the snake who ate his own head.
    GOOD LUCK!!

  37. Angry Weegie says:

    Speaking as a 70yo who spent two years campaigning with many others of similar age, who contributed as much as I could to various sites and causes and who voted YES, don’t keep blaming the old, and for God’s sake stop fighting with each other.

    There were many factors which contributed to the result. Unfortunately, (comparatively) low turnout in the two big Yes voting cities meant that the Yes vote wasn’t maximised, though it wouldn’t have affected the result, just the margin.

    In the end too many voted No out of fear, self interest or hatred; fear of the unknown or the possibility of a return to pre-war recession, self interest from the “I’m all right, so let’s not rock the boat” types and hatred of the SNP and the wider Yes campaign from Labour activists and hangers on, all stirred up and exaggerated by the media.

    In the end, Scots voted themselves out of existence. On the Yes side, we all knew what would happen after a No vote. The only surprise was that it only took about 6 hours for Miliband and Cameron to renege on their worthless promises. Unfortunately, the words “I told you so” may be apt, but will only leave a bitter taste.

    Lastly, I hope all those who voted No are not going to be able to belt out Flower of Scotland at rugby or football matches without the words sticking in their throats. And I particularly refer to the bunch of “proud Scot” internationalists who made great play of their British identity before the vote.

    Rant over.

  38. James Dow says:

    Thanks Tombee I take that on board I also will not be going away, perhaps I just use different means for the same end. Sometimes you have to startle some folk so they know they are alive and can actually react.
    I am a very old fashioned Scot that has not been Anglicised by the British state like so many occupants of Scotland, or succumbed to it’s state run media, my Scottish psyche is intact, and where I encounter any injustice my first and only instinct is to fight with whatever is required for the fight
    It is my distinctiveness that set’s me apart as a Scot.

  39. Muscleguy says:

    @Big Jock

    A more parsimonious explanation for the turnout difference in Glasgow and Dundee is firstly complacency. Dundee has long been touted as the ‘Yes city’ while there were all those Yes rallies in Glasgow both of which likely communicated to people that a Yes vote was in the bag. The general Yes euphoria in the week leading up to the vote also didn’t help.

    In addition, sadly, many of the first time registered are those who live chaotic lives due to drugs and drink and Dundee and Glasgow have no shortage of them. One of the Yes campaigners here in Dundee related a tale of being pursued through a close by a spaced junkie desperate for registration forms for himself and his girlfriend. Very nice, but what are the chances they were too far gone to vote? Maybe they partook in celebration too early?

    Next time we need to rein in the euphoria and the street gatherings. Instead of gathering to wave flags we should have been out in the schemes impressing on people the importance of every vote and the need for as big a Yes vote nationally as possible. Next time we can use Dundee and Glasgow as examples. Also who knows? the turnout elsewhere might have been even bigger if people like that had also voted and voted Yes.

    Maybe a message of ‘Vote Sober’ also needs to be got across.

  40. Sannymac says:

    SqueuedPerspextive:

    Thank you for the most informative contribution in this column. We who support the independence route must pull together and avoid being stuck with unsolvable complaints.

    To those with the legal training please advise us on how we can best organise to have the results of the referendum checked and the various abuses investigated.

    Please note; there are many video examples of corruption in the counting chambers all of these need to be examined. We desperately need an organisation that is capable of undertaking this work.

  41. tombee says:

    James Dow,
    Good on you mate. You should always be true to yourself. That is a respectable and principled position to adopt. It’s never easy to tread a path where nobody’s toes are tread upon, but to endeavour to avoid doing so may shine a brighter light upon that which you strive to defend.

    Cheers.

  42. Hayzo69 says:

    No offence here to the elderly who voted YES in apparently very small numbers. However time will pass and OUR time will come again. The Golden generation will hopefully be pushing up the daisies the next time this comes round. I don’t think we should honour any time scales set in the Edinburgh agreement. They broke the agreement when they broke the rules of Purdah. We damn nearly won this thing by playing fair. Next time we should play them at their own games. We need to all get behind the SNP and make them permanently the main force in Scottish politics. Labour are lying treacherous bastards with no honour and should be erased from Scotland the same way the tories have been.

  43. Andrea says:

    It is terribly sad and unfair to generalise and attack ‘old people’ or over 55’s for not voting YES. It’s true that fewer voted yes – but it was no means a landslide rejection of YES. Try understanding WHY……and you’ll be better off knowing where to target information in the future. The over 60’s are the lowest income, least cushion from the threats of the NO party – and that group used that to the best advantage.

    Older people have the LEAST amount of access to social media – with their only source of information being the biased scaremongering of the traditional Media. Blame that if you want someone to attack!

    Older people are reliant on others for help and uncertainty is scary – YOU will get that way yourself if you are forced to rely on a pension when you can no longer work.

    A whole lot of OLD people waited a whole lot longer than young people to vote YES – and you denigrate and dismiss their grief and loss by your ageist generalisations.

    Don’t see how you can add to your cause by attacking the most vulnerable voters….some respect and maturity would help.

  44. James Dow says:

    Tombee That approach certainly does have some intellectual merit. I guess that’s where the term describing Scot’s as warrior poet’s comes from.
    Intellectual warriors are always torn between arm and mind as a course of action. But once the mind is made up the arm follows.

  45. tombee says:

    That’s the gemme, James Dow, and of course it could all be put in a very much simpler way,

    “DON’T LET THE BASTARDS GRIND YOU DOWN”.

    take care mate, awra best awra time.

  46. dtr1001 says:

    I posted this in cif this morning in response to a link to a poll that had been created demanding a recount:

    “There may be more of an appetite for this from the ranks of the disenfranchised, now being swelled by NO voters realising they were duped – IF the demand for an independent enquiry were to include an examination into these issues:

    No exit poll – why?
    Wall to wall undemocratic representation of the establishment view from media outlets vested in maintaining that view.
    Wall to wall undemocratic representation of the establishment view from the BBC who guided by their own constitution and are paid by license fee payers to be IMPARTIAL, but clearly were not.
    The undemocratic abuse of power of Cameron meeting with supermarket bosses moments before negative outpourings from said supermarket bosses are spouted in the complicit media.
    Failure to report adequately key pro independence stories about the value of new oil fields being explored.

    …and so many more examples of how this process was manipulated by just a few vested interests to get the result it wanted. That’s the level of analysis that I want to see. I don’t know if the ballot counts were rigged or not but it’s pretty clear that the process was. Independent Public Enquiry on this please!!”

    I think this is the direction to take this.

  47. tombee says:

    To James Dow,

    James go to sky:com/news, examine the utube video and see what you think is going on there.

  48. Forbes says:

    I complained directly to the BBC for breaking their Royal Charter
    on impartiality.

    I sent them this very comprehensive report from the University of the West of Scotland.

    Dr John Robertson has nailed them right left and centre.
    Guilty as charged for blatant Bias in its every manifestation.
    A Bias designed to corrupt a free and democratic election, in order to fulfill their own previously hidden agenda.

    Please see the link below:

    https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/john-robertson/bbc-bias-and-scots-referendum-new-report

  49. Forbes says:

    I complained directly to the BBC for breaking their Royal Charter
    on impartiality.

    I sent them this very comprehensive report from the University of the West of Scotland.

    Dr John Robertson has nailed them right left and centre.
    Guilty as charged for blatant Bias in its every manifestation.
    A Bias designed to corrupt a free and democratic election, in order to fulfill their own previously hidden agenda.

    Please see the link below:

    https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/john-robertson/bbc-bias-and-scots-referendum-new-report

  50. BornOptimist says:

    I am another of that generation who seem to be receiving a disproportionate amount of blame for Yes losing the vote. I think it is true lots of people around my age voted No (I include one of my sisters and brother’s in-law) and I tried to persuade a number of them to change their minds but to no avail.

    Unfortunately, the older one gets the more set one is likely to be in ones way. Having been brought up on Rule Britannia and a version of history more or less written by Winston Churchill it is difficult to see how many of them could not have ‘Britishness’ at the core of their being Scottish. Additionally, they are a generation formed under an umbrella of fear during the cold war and thus more susceptible to threats related to the armed forces. Add to the historical factors that formed their outlook the pounding they received regarding the possible loss of their pensions and you have a generation who should have received multiple reassurances. They didn’t. How many youngsters, for example, took up the ‘Go speak to your Grannie’ request from Bella Caledonia (I think)? It was probably too late by then, but had more consideration been given early in the campaign to keeping the elders in the family informed the outcome could have been different.

    Having said that, the entire population was effectively faced with psychological warfare. Gordon Brown’s incredibly powerful speech and the Vow from the three UK leaders undoubtedly also gave waverers justification for playing safe. Such an extreme intervention could never have been anticipated; it was a challenge to Yes that would have been deemed off limits when considering any problems they might encounter.

    Add to that, despite the Yes campaign making incredible use of social media, they clearly failed (at least at the Edinburgh Yes shop I gave some help to) to use similar media to keep in touch with potential Yes voters and ensure they voted: instead of acquiring email addresses and phone numbers when canvassing they seemed to simply to have noted names and addresses. Chasing up these potential voters using clip boards and home address lists was both time wasting and inefficient. Next time – and there will be a next time, though the rules of the game may have changed; no 50% plus 1, as it seems impossible for three party leaders to bring their MPs into line and meet the deadlines that have been published (some have already been broken), there need to be improvements in communicating with members of the electorate not tied into social media.

    Despite claims that this referendum produced an outcome that was set for a generation, if there is no progress in producing an acceptable array of powers, we can forget the spin and agree that all bets are off.

    I suspect the next referendum will not be far off. Had the recent referendum been carried out fairly then I would have argued otherwise but it was far from fair so it is time to regroup, rethink, and plan ahead. Our time will come, and there is a new generation of activists developing who will not be satisfied with platitudes.

  51. Willie Galbraith says:

    The bottom line is the people who want a future in Scotland have been sold down the river by people with their future behind them.
    We are currently the only part of the UK that offers free prescriptions and free personal care for the elderly.
    Talk about Turkish voting for Xmas.

  52. Terry smyth says:

    A friend pointed out that the large no vote in the elderly May been due lack of access to Internet and the sources disproving many of the statements made on BBC etc together with them being targeted by personal visits and perhaps ? Being told your pension is not safe …just a point to consider ..

  53. I have been following Wings over Scotland for the last year or so – never commented before now, but really feel compelled to do so now. I share the pain of defeat with every yes voter in the land, have shed the tears and had the shakes of frustration. BUT, the campaign should and will go on. We will achieve nothing with gross name calling. We must be strong and decisive, but also fair minded and conduct ourselves with dignity and good grace otherwise we run the risk of not being listened to seriously. We owe it to all the people who fought and died to give us a socialist party – may the ones who run it today think black burning shame of themselves – to move forward in their footsteps and always remember their dignified ideals and with it their ultimate success.

  54. SqueuedPerspextive says:

    You all don’t get it – We YES won.

    Why didn’t the sun choose sides ?
    And Why did no one talk about the money ?
    Why was Swinney not challenging the figures on this and revenue and blah blah blah.

    Because it was a waste of time. Without the legal right to challenge numbers by inspecting the Books there would be no

    point.Also the other main arguments of Westminster likewise need a legal basis and that legal basis is the Treaty of Union.

    Do you realise how Yes played such a positive campaign and stuck to the rules that when No broke them there were consequences?

    The truth is that the No campaign and their claims meant we had to go the EU court (remember ‘Clear Legal Basis’ ?)
    to get a ruling on-
    “Scotland cant be in the Euro” : Article 4 (we are already a member of the Euro)
    “Scotland cant keep the pound ” : We have our own mint – unless the Scottish parliament repeals Act 14.
    “Scotland cant have a currency union” : We have a currency union under Article 16.
    “Scotland has a £5bn debt hole ” : In order to ascertain our legal debt as per Article 9
    we obviously need a commissioner to total the Amount of the Equivalents as per article 15
    And since the successor is the RBS moving its HQ is in direct breach of this Act!

    The Edinburgh agreement was legally binding so breaches have consequences one of which is article 15 which basically says we can

    send in the auditors to check its fair. As article 258 of the EU treaty says we can (and we are bound by article 3 & 4) to abide

    by European Law

    But then you cant tell people the result of the ruling until afterwards – but now the deal has been done –
    Or the inside of the Sun on voting morning might have been pointing out the above Articles and their meaning.
    What was needed was a way to legally and officially sort out what was due according to the Treaty of Union.
    AND That was the prize.
    Go and read the articles of the Treaty of Union and think about the power Scotland has if it can choose when and if to repeal articles (esp 4,9,14,15 & 16).

  55. SqueuedPerspextive says:

    And really all the YES and all the NO have both won.

  56. SqueuedPerspextive says:

    Can anyone give me a time line list who Salmond met with including any visits to the EU?

  57. James says:

    It’s nothing to do with old young and whatever it’s about 1 million scots. 1 million they swayed to the union. Ok so now let them live not in their fantsay union where they go oh were British with a capital £! No let them be in a fair sharing union one where in Scotland there is fading healthcare one where there is no such thing as free bus passes one where young Johnny, who’s done so well at school will no pay for university, one where it’s not about food banks it’s about a seat on the security council and 75 billion in trident upgrade to pay for it, and above all no block grant + 4 billion. And Why I’ll tell you, because when you want to be in Union it must be the same for everybody where ever you may be. Finally reduced the scottish government to the powerless talking shop that Donald Dewar wanted for it is a fantsay that you reside in a union then on weekends vote for a strong scottish parliment to fight your corner. Yes let that million suffer and let them feel deeply the pain they voted for themselves huh and the rest of us ……….. And maybe in twenty years if any are still standing they might reflect.

  58. Arel says:

    There seems to be a bit of real hostility building up against the “grey” vote.

    Now I fully understand the real anger, resentment, disappointment and embarrasment we all feel at the moment. I am still feeling it as I write this. But let us not blame the senior vote rather those who poisoned their minds and installed fear and worry into their thinking.

    Step forward Gordon Brown, the Daily Mail, Daily Express, Daily Record, BBC, STV, Channel 4 need I go on? Unfortunately this generation are not by and large internet aware and are reliant solely on our corrupt and biased media for news.

    Having a few elderly relatives in the 75+ category I know how the Lunch Club bush fires take off.

    So go easy on them, target your justifiable anger on the real enemy against independence and we know who they are.

  59. Rob.Gill says:

    It’s true to say that many pensioners were terrified by the scaremongering self-servers, but unfortunately they did not understand the consequences of their ultimate decision to vote NO.

    Being elderly and brought up in the “British State” and all that this implies in their minds and psyche
    it is understandable that their choice would be the familiar over the unfamiliar when it comes down to things like pensions. It must be said though, that many of the pensioners probably are apolitical and unaware of cause and effect in present day politics.

    They probably didn’t even consider the possibility of a positive outcome which saw their pensions increase considerably in an Independent Scotland and certainly did not consider the possibility of their pensions being at risk in their beloved British state while the humungus debt Westminster are trying to service, is in fact growing exponentially and not aided by the credit agencies reducing UK’s
    credibility in fiscal management.

  60. jim waugh says:

    I was at a small polling station in a wealthy part of Edinburgh on Thursday night. I was acting as teller for the Yes votes.

    At one point I was looking at 14 No voters (they all had NO or Naw stickers on) standing at the entrance to the station. I knew there was little chance of most of the voter visiting the station would be yes voters but I was taken aback by the bile, hostility to yes voters and leaders of the Yes campaign and the level of smugness of the group.

    Several made it known that their children went to a local private school. There was no lack of expensive cars (4×4’s, Audi’s and the occasional Volvo seemed to dominate) pulling up saying hello to the group and ignoring me as if I was S…e under their foot.

    Although hard to describe the atmosphere reeked of the privately educated, again the local private school seemed to dominate, well heeled, with jobs in the city (Edinburgh). I do not think any of this group are interested in more powers to Scotland as they seemed perfectly happy with the way thing are.

    This may seem like a bit of a rant (or chippy as some say) but I am only trying to reflect my observations of the 2 hours I stood outside the polling station. I live in a nice part of Edinburgh with good state schools but I think this group suggests that the networks they enjoy have little room for most of the population which lives nearby. or as one said out loud “you mean the poor folk who live over there”

  61. Yeti says:

    So the timetable slipped a bit? Big deal?

    A commitment to hold a referendum in 2010 was part of the SNP’s election manifesto when it contested the 2007 Scottish Parliament election – and we all know that didn’t happen either.

  62. Kenny says:

    I agree with Arel. We cant blame the old, or in fact anyone who voted No because of fear put in their minds by the British establishment/media.

    We also cant blame people who voted No either because they were born in England, or are Scots who feel passionately British. This is an immovable group and we just have to leave them and respect their opinion.

    My problem and the only reason that I am still committed to this fight is that I believe that 70%+ of the people in Scotland want independence but many of that number were convinced by the media that it was a risk that was greater than they were prepared to take.

  63. Toots says:

    Hi,
    First time poster here so hello to all.

    Just been reading some of the comments. My family would have traditionally been working class Labour voters…I was undecided for a long time about the referendum but found myself leaning more and more towards the yes vote latterly. I had a postal vote that sat in my house for a long time and I filled it in the day that all the scaremongering started as a YES vote. I found myself debating with my husband who was undecided and colleagues at work. My husband voted YES too after the scare stories broke and after more and more biased coverage from the BBC. I will never vote Labour again after learning of how they have betrayed Scotland in the past as part of my research through my journey to Yes and after their last minute devo max “vow”. My siblings with a vote and parents at 80- lifelong Labour voters- voted YES for a better future for us and their grandchildren. They are so gutted at the result and also will never vote for Labour again. Woe betide the campaigner who knocks on my Dads door at the forthcoming general election….

    I know a lot of older people did vote No…maybe self interest or maybe scared and perhaps there is a sizeable part of this demographic that would take the BBC and politicians at face value also. I agree though with the other posters that say that we cannot blame or presume this of all of the older generation based on my own parents. Having said this I have had to listen tonight to an older No vote who is saying when I’m gone you can all vote YES but basically too much of a risk etc etc and we are all better and stronger together. Needless to say, a frank exchange of views ensued….

    I have no idea what will happen now. I certainly have seen lots of colleagues vote No…some scared, some risk averse, some out of self-interest. I don’t know what it will take to change this. My dad has often said to me over the years that Margaret Thatcher dismantled society…set neighbours against neighbours and appealed to the greed in everyone and I’m beginning to think he may be right. There seems to be a real I’m ok Jack mentality now.

    I voted YES because yes, I am doing okay just now and so are my family but I had hoped that other people, not in that position, throughout Scotland would benefit from a new society, a new Scotland. It was nothing to do with dislike of any other nation but just the realisation that Scotland could and should run its own affairs. Just now I am disappointed but where I confess before I think I was losing interest in politics due to the homogenous nature of our mainstream political parties, this referendum process has ignited my interest again. Now I just need to figure out where and how to channel it.

  64. SqueuedPerspextive says:

    Never mind – I found out – its the repeal of the Interpretation Act 1978

    Go look at all the changes that are being brought into place the Repeal by EU court of the Act of Interpretation 1978 – go look
    Go look at the Scotland act 1998
    It has tons of implication for us all
    – 73 constinuences in 8 regions
    – into the UN
    – we get our own navy

  65. Stewart Sinclair says:

    The fight for independence has only begun.

    Hello, I’m writing from Canada where I was born. However, both my father’s mom and dad were from Scotland. This is a rather long “comment” but given that there has only been a limited discussion of this matter of national currency and finance, I strongly believe that it is necessary to get an informed discussion going.

    History has shown us, with monotonous regularity, that a nation without a sovereign currency – and for that matter, a complete sovereign financial system is not going to be very sovereign. Just ask the Greeks, Spaniards or the Argentinians, for starters, about what can happen when you try to use a foreign currency. In a financial crash the results are lethal.

    This is a unique opportunity to do it right. But the monetary and financial sovereignty issues need a great deal more discussion and expert input.
    http://neweconomicperspectives.org/
    http://neweconomicperspectives.org/modern-monetary-theory-primer.html
    http://www.comer.org/archives/2014/COMER_JulyAugust2014.pdf
    And there’s plenty more but this material will be enough to keep a new comer to to the monetary sovereignty issue going for some time.

    I am not a professionally trained economist (most of them are in the pay of the banks and therefore a menace to a clear understanding of money). However, I have learned that there are few basics in the construction of a sovereign financial system that need to be addressed. I’ll now list them and try to provide a short explanation.
    The list below is not necessarily complete but these items are essential:

    1. a sovereign currency (using a foreign one, whether the Pound Sterling or the Euro is a recipe disaster);

    2. a central bank and banking regulator owned and controlled by the government (For the Canadian version of this law (see Article 14 of the Bank of Canada Act);
    http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/B-2/page-6.html#docCont

    3. a national payments clearing system; (A fully functional domestic payments clearing system provides critical domestic oversight and is necessary to prevent fraud and foreign banking intrigue.)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_Payments_Administration

    4. a national banking framework (Bank and Financial Services Acts, A critical function of the national banking framework is to separate national from foreign players, especially UK based institutions that must now be treated as foreign institutions. It’s worth looking at the US Banking Act of 1933 or the Canadian Bank Act of 1934 to get a picture of how they stabilized the system until the deregulation in the late 80?s and 90?s set the scene for the meltdown of 2008.);

    5. a national banking system (Including all domestically registered banks along with credit unions, building societies, and any state owned lending and saving banks that the government may need to establish to make sure that there is sufficient domestic credit.);

    6. a national Income Tax Act that is transparent and fair that serves only the collection of taxes (The tax system is critical but not for the reasons most people think. The state does not need tax receipts in hand in order to spend its own currency, so long as what it wishes to buy is offered for sale in that currency. Only when it needs to buy things only for sale in a foreign currency does it need foreign exchange to purchase those items. Then domestic tax receipts won’t be much good anyway.
    As the Modern Money Theorists at University of Missouri Kanas City [UMKC] point out – taxes force people to hold and use the national currency if for no other reason than to pay taxes, i.e “taxes drive money”.
    http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2011/07/mmp-blog-8-taxes-drive-money.html
    To this end the tax code must be transparent, fair and stable. It must not be used to provide incentives to the private sector or we end up with the kind of dog’s breakfast that we see in the Canadian and US systems.);

    7. a national securities framework (Act);

    8. a national securities market (necessary for channeling local savings into local business);

    9. currency controls along similar lines to those used by China at least for some time (It’s important to get clear on this one. When China came out the Cultural Revolution it was a near basket case socially and economically. It certainly did not have the huge foreign currency reserves that it has now. The main thing that saved it from the speculative attack that brought about the Asian currency meltdown of 1997 were it’s currency controls. The Yuan was not available on the forex markets and all exchanges had to be accompanied by the appropriate trade documents. Personal transactions were also limited in quantity over time. China has maintained this system even now that she is the world’s second biggest economy, much to the chagrin of her trading partners in the west.);

    10. probably temporary capital controls along similar lines to those imposed by Chile some years ago (Chile, for a time in the 90?s, required that foreign money coming into the country could not be taken back out for a period of 2 years – to keep out “hot money” obviously);

    11. finally a competent and sizable team of forensic auditors with prosecutorial powers with the central bank or appropriate regulatory authority to catch fraud in the financial system and punish it where necessary (The team of forensic auditors on the staff of the regulators must be seen as the “standing army” of the financial system – a necessity not a luxury.).

    This is, of course, only a beginning of the necessary discussion.
    (Apologies for awkward formatting)
    S.A.Sinclair

  66. Brian Fleming says:

    Act of Interpretation??? What’s that?

  67. Brian Fleming says:

    Born optimist:

    “Gordon Brown’s incredibly powerful speech and the Vow from the three UK leaders undoubtedly also gave waverers justification for playing safe. Such an extreme intervention could never have been anticipated; it was a challenge to Yes that would have been deemed off limits when considering any problems they might encounter.”

    In other words the YES campaign was hopelessly naive to assume the other side would play by the rules. The SG was urged time and again by many people (myself included) to bring in international monitors/observers. But no, “the Edinburgh Agreement blah blah blah…..”

  68. Graham says:

    Well November the 13th what you seem to be saying is that unless someone agrees with the way you think they become your enemy—aaaah One of the great lessons in life is that really good people can hold different points of view.By making these people your enemy there is never going to be a chance of chenging their mind or maybe yours being changed.
    Judging by your post I would say that would be a challenge



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