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Wings Over Scotland


Fix up, look sharp

Posted on June 26, 2021 by

Holiday Boy is still “resting”, so here’s a laugh from nearly six years ago.

Hear the bang? See the spark? No, us either.

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    702 to “Fix up, look sharp”

    1. Confused says:

      It is actually pretty hard to see how an indy Scotland could AVOID becoming one of, if not the richest country on earth (not counting the weird places like Monaco) – it would take incompetence on a massive scale, active sabotage, “selling the jerseys” and craven treachery beyond anything so far seen on this earth … then you realise :

      OH RIGHT – ITS THE FUCKING SNP IN CHARGE (plus a unionist establishment, a woke middle class, the anglo financiers and the orange thugs)

      – our FM is running the country for the benefit of a perverts lobby group (“GloryHoleInTheWall”) so she can one day get a job at the UN as “pride czar” or something – anyplace that our laws have no jurisdiction.

      FM : “its a good news and bad news scenario”
      Scotland : “whats the bad news”
      FM : “yer fucked, proper fucked, shawshank with the bull queers, vic morrow in the glass house, the greenhouse scene in scum … ”
      Scotland : “okay we get it! – so what’s the good news”
      FM : “I’ve got a new job!!- SWINGS AND ROUNDABOUTS!”

    2. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Tinto Chiel says: at 10:05 pm

      “Serious question for you, though. We used to hear accusations of “Blood & Soil nationalism” whenever folk like Alf Baird suggested restricting a future referendum franchise to native Scots. Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t Germany restrict any voting beyond council/local authority and EU elections to German nationals?”
      ——————————–

      Yes that’s almost right.

      Anyone resident in Germany has the right to vote when it concerns/affects the everyday running of their local/wider administrations.

      Towns/villages/council authorities and larger council areas. People who look after your being as an individual.

      The 16 States (Länder such as Bavaria, Hessen, Hamburg, Saxony etc.) and the Federal elections for the German Parliament, the Bundestag, are however reserved for German Nationals. People with German Citizenship. They make decisions and represent the State as a whole even if they do often broach individual Rights.

      When I lived in Denmark it was just the same.

      Alf Baird is quite correct in his thinking because he’s more or less made the case for the same type of voting system that Germany and Denmark use. HOW you vote needs to be looked at as well.

      The snag is, Scotland is not (yet) an independent nation and can’t restrict the voting to Scottish Nationals/citizens.

      So, cough up the 600,000 quid Nicola gal and get your finger out. 🙂
      —————–
      “Och, Graf (aka #Foghorn Boy), you’re such a spoilsport where Dim’n’Don are concerned ? .”

      They’re just dimwitted Brit Nat fodder for the WINGS grinder.

      BTW, sorry for the delay but I had to finish an economic evaluation report for a new construction project.

    3. Hatuey says:

      Confused, you’ve evolved spectacularly in a really positive direction… that’s the best comment we’ve seen on here for weeks, not counting a few of my own, of course.

      I’m enjoying Republic of Scotland’s comments too these days. I like the anger in them… anger is good. We should be angry.

      Keep up the good work.

      As for Sensible Dave. Sometimes it’s right and proper just to call someone a prick.

      Speaking of pricks, I hear there was good evidence to suggest a possible reason for adverse reactions to AstraZenica could be down to how it’s being injected.

      Apparently if they inject into a blood vessel by accident, which is always a risk, i.e. intravenous, it can cause such problems as Thrombocytopenia, blood clotting, etc. https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.29.450356v1.abstract?%3Fcollection

      Whatever…

    4. Graf Midgehunter says:

      The United Kindom of England..*/?!!

      Another of the world beating gems from our resident Brit Nat, sensible Dave. 🙂

    5. robertknight says:

      @Sensible

      Care to show me a contemporary map emblazoned with the names of unified states such as Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, USSR/CCCP?

      No? You mean to say they no longer exist? But how does a unified state cease to exist and change its name? Impossible surely, if you’re to be believed.

      If the UK had existed pre-Union, then it could be argued that it could exist post-Union. But it didn’t.

      The only change since its inception in 1801 has been for the bulk of the former Kingdom of Ireland to cede from it in 1921. Having a corner of that island remain in a political union with the previously unified Kingdom of Great Britain facilitated the retention of the UK element of the state’s title. (Also saving face and money – the only change being the insertion of the word “Northern” in the title while flags and Royal Arms remained unaltered).

      This would not be the case with Scottish Independence. There would no longer be any unified Kingdom of Great Britain. Instead, as was the case pre-1707, you’d have two separate kingdoms, namely the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England; which since 1536 has included Wales and which, despite the NIP changing its century old constitutional status, would likely maintain a political union of sorts with Northern Ireland, giving us the Kingdom of England & Northern Ireland.

      If Scotland had joined a pre-existing UK, in a manner similar to that whereby the UK joined the pre-existing EEC, then your argument might hold water. But it didn’t.

      Don’t take my word for it as to how such things work. Just ask any citizen of the former unified states mentioned above for a first hand account.

    6. Fishy Wullie says:

      Hi Guys
      I’m looking for a bit of help with a video I’m making Brian Doonthetoon helped me yesterday so I’m hoping someone can help me again,

      I’m looking for an image I remember seeing of a wee girl holding up a saltire and beside her were a couple of knuckledraggers holding a union jack, I’m sure it also featured on the front of Iscot magazine, I’m hunted for that image everywhere and I just can’t find it.

      If anyone knows where it is can you post a link it would be much appreciated

    7. Carol Neill says:

      https://share.icloud.com/photos/0g2OnNj-ZJPf-Z5jtlfHnAjyQ

      If this link doesn’t work fishy Wullie , just google ‘wee girl with saltire ‘

    8. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Fishy Wullie.

      You may find this of interest…

      https://sites.google.com/site/webgaffer/home/iscot-ciara

    9. Thomas says:

      @ graf midgehunter

      Interesting post pal. The only point i would make , although scotland isnt obviously independent , i thought the concept of a scottish national already exists though in the uk state?

      For example , many years ago , my brother went to live in England and needed a copy of his birth certificate to open a bank account.

      He went to the local registry office , and was told for the purposes of nationality , he was scottish and therfore had to apply for a copy of his birth certificate in his own country?

      As far as im aware , the uk is the only state in europe which doesnt give out things like a birth certificate or marriage certificate becasue of the peculiarity of the differing nations (except wales which is part of England legally) still being represented in legal terms thus the uk is classed as a multi national state?

      So couldnt the voting franchise be restricted to those with a scottish birth certificate and scottish tax code?

    10. Sensibledave says:

      Robert Knight

      …. A few things

      1. We could call ourselves whatever we like. Remember, to all but a few nut jobs, United Kingdom is just a place, not a thing.

      2. Why would you care?

      3. We certainly wouldn’t care what your view would be.

      4. Greenland isn’t very Green.

    11. robertknight says:

      @Sensible

      … A few additional things

      5. Britain isn’t Great.

      6. The United Kingdom is far from united.

      7. Your opinion is your opinion and is not supported by facts.

    12. Breeks says:

      Sensibledave says:
      1 July, 2021 at 7:21 am
      Robert Knight

      …. A few things

      1. We could call ourselves whatever we like. Remember, to all but a few nut jobs, United Kingdom is just a place, not a thing.

      2. Why would you care?

      3. We certainly wouldn’t care what your view would be….

      Come on guys, just ignore the troll.

      Now somebody’s going have to wipe up all that English exceptionalism before somebody stands in it.

    13. Ruby says:

      Sensibledave says:
      30 June, 2021 at 7:21 pm
      Hey Rubes …. You are coming across as being a bit needy, demanding and attention seeking.

      Bunny boilers are not my “thing”

      I’ll pass ta.

      Reply

      What is your thing Sinister Dave?

      You say you have no interest in Scottish Independence yet you have been posting on Wings for the past ten years?

      Very weird!

      Are you being paid?

    14. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Graf: thanks for that information. As you say, Denmark’s rules are the same and it just happened to be one of the EU states I checked regarding its electoral procedures for non-nationals.

      It must be great being sovereign and doing something about it (listening, Nikla?), eh?

      Incidentally, Anders Holch Povlsen is a Dane and owns more of Scotland than anyone else (over 200,000 acres) but I doubt very much that I, as a foreigner, would be able to hoover up great tracts of Denmark in such a manner. That’s what happens when you don’t control your own country’s resources.

      Instead the FM takes advice from the man who manages the Duke of Buccleuch’s huge estates in Scotland. Graeme McCormick of Annual Ground Tax fame doesn’t get a look in, I’m afraid.

    15. Jeremy says:

      I would imagine that in the event of the UK or Great Britain terms being lost from the name, then Wales would probably also be included with England and Northern Ireland in whatever the new name would be. I know that in 1707 Wales was considered to be part of England but that is not how it is categorised nowadays, and has been officially recognised as a country in its own right since at least 2011.

      I believe that the administrative unit that was formerly known as the Kingdom of England is now known, for administrative purposes at least, as England and Wales. So I’d think it likely that if it got to the stage of England being specified in the name again, Wales would be as well. Whatever the prefix might be.

    16. Ruby says:

      Breeks says:
      1 July, 2021 at 7:58 am

      Come on guys, just ignore the troll.

      Reply

      Sinister Dave is more than just a troll.

      Trolls don’t usually hang about for decades.

    17. Sensibledave says:

      Robert knight

      What is it with you Robert? It’s that Stockholm Syndrome variant again isn’t it.

      Move on Robert, when (if) Scotland becomes Independent you can do what you like and the rest of us can do what we like.

      Again, you need to ask yourself, why would you care? We won’t be sending you buckets of cash anymore so you will need to go and do some work – not spend your time chasing folk in other countries because you think their name is not an accurate description of their country.

      By the way, why do you call yourself Robert Knight when you haven’t got a knighthood?

      Disgraceful charlatan!

    18. Fishy Wullie says:

      Brian Doonthetoon once again to the rescue, now all I need is next weeks winning lottery numbers and we’re done 🙂

      Thanks Brian

    19. robertknight says:

      @Sensible

      I guess you could call your country what you like, like the Macedonians used to.

      Or perhaps you could copy the former Yugoslav Republics, but instead of FYR as a prefix use FUK.

      FUK Great Britain & Northern Ireland has a certain charm all of its own, don’t you think?

      Sincerely

      Sir Robert

    20. J.o.e says:

      @Breeks

      This is a reply to your comment on 29 June, 2021 at 2:47 am for which I put aside due to getting busy.

      You are correct in my opinion about the actual minimal differences between different races. Just take a little African kid and raise them as a Scot and you will have everything there except for some slight racial distinctions.

      However as far as I understand it, it doesn’t take much difference in the averages of large groups for small differences to become amplified into cultural trends and life outcomes. This is something that feminists were trying to deny until the trans cult came along and used the same biology denying methods against women.

      Dan made an excellent post on the evolution of the different human races to differing environments which called for different strengths to be augmented and certain weaknesses weeded out.

      However I have to say that im not so bothered one way or the other. I never used to even see race. I also used to have the normal overly welcoming attitude of many Scots to all cultures and religions.

      This changed because I realised a couple of major problems, that initially I wanted to ignore, or reject out of emotion because it was against the way I wanted to see the world.

      1 – just because we don’t want to see ourselves as a distinct ethnicity and nation (people) while we are happy to rub shoulders with different races and cultures doesn’t mean others will share this view. People from poorer parts of the world aren’t coming here to create ethnic and cultural harmony. They are coming here because it makes sense for them to be in a place with greater standard of living regardless of the diminished amount of available housing, jobs, services, welfare and everything else for our own poor.

      If cultural harmony is somehow achieved it is by accident rather than design. People from different groups prefer communities of their own people on average and often will have huge in-group preferences which will extend to business and politics. This while we actually often work with an out group preference.

      2 – there is an active geopolitical move enabled by governments, NGO’s, big business and other players to bring a never ending stream of non Europeans into Europe regardless of the effects on native born Europeans. In fact if you listen to certain bigger name Zionists you will hear the occasional admission that it is their wish for European nations to lose their homogeneity and for Europeans in general to be completely mixed with people from all over the world.

      Yup. I can almost feel the scorn at that paragraph from certain people.

      This is advertised as some sort of beautiful new world of diversity and harmony but its purpose is anything but. Again the trans issue should, in anyone with a brain, be a warning to how our political and financial el-ites could use a situation where a once homogenous country is then balkanised.

      I took a walk in Edinburgh a few months ago and I couldn’t help notice the massive increase in Africans there. Ok, that in itself may not trouble a reasonable person you think.

      Alright, but I wish I could have taken a photo of this – there were about 7 or 8 African guys sitting around or milling about a certain area, behaving quite peacefully. However behind them was an entire window wall emblazoned with BLM propaganda, fists raised in the air etc. That picture would have spoken 10,000 words if I had the means to take it.

      The people who are being brought here are going to be weaponised against us politically and culturally. We can see this by the constant attention to injustices committed against blacks and others thousands of miles from Scottish shores. Injustices most Scots, including the much maligned Unionists, find repulsive.

      We as Scots, indeed as Europeans, are being scolded for our awareness of our heritage and ethnicity while everyone, including those with extremely backward worldviews are being protected, promoted and encouraged to strengthen their view of themselves being distinct from us.

      @everyone else

      And just for fun to poke the screeching bedwetters lets hear it from the devil himself:

      “Yes, Germany was back then a democracy, before us and we’ve been plundered and squeezed dry. No more. What does democracy or authoritarian state mean for those international hyenas? They don’t care at all! They are only interested in one thing. Are you willing to be plundered? Yes or no? Are you stupid enough to keep quiet in the process? Yes or no? And, when a democracy is stupid enough not to stand up, then it is good! But when an authoritarian state declares “You do not plunder our people any longer”, neither from the inside or outside, then that is bad. In reality, money rules in these countries. They talk about press freedom when in fact these newspapers have one owner and the owner is, in any case, the sponsor. This press then shapes public opinion, these political parties don’t have any differences at all, like before with us. You already know the old political parties. They were all the same. Then people must think that especially in these countries of freedom and wealth, there should exist a very comfortable life for its people, but the opposite is the case. In these countries, in the so-called “Democracies”, the people are by no means the main focus of attention. What really matters is the existence of this group of “Democracy makers”. That is, the existence of a few hundred of giant capitalists who own all the factories and shares and who, ultimately, lead the people. They are not interested at all in the great mass of people, they are the only ones who can be addressed as international elements because they conduct their business everywhere. It is a small, rootless, international clique that is turning the people against each other, that does not want them to have peace.”

    21. Dave Somerville says:

      Ruby

      If I were you, I would leave the so called Troll alone.

      He is running rings round you.

      He hands you your arse on a plate every day, which you can’t handle, which leads you to constantly chase your tail.

      Give it a rest Ruby, you are not in his league.

      This guy casts his fishing rod out every day hoping to catch a numpty gatekeeper Nat, and he always manages to get one of those numpties to bite.

      Ruby, you are one of those posters who loves playing to the audience, you love a pile on

      As long as you are not in the minority.

      But this guy has got you sussed, and knows that the more numpties like you he catches, the longer he will hang around, leading you down roads you don’t really want to go down.

      One nil Yoon.

    22. Ruby says:

      Dave Somerville says:
      1 July, 2021 at 9:21 am
      Ruby

      If I were you, I would leave the so called Troll alone.

      Reply

      But you are not me so you can stick your advice & abuse where the sun don’t shine.

      Cheers!

    23. Petition to She/Her and her cult thugs,

      ` Accurately record the sex of people charged or convicted of rape or attempted rape`

      https://petitions.parliament.scot/petitions/PE1876

    24. Ruby says:

      Dave Somerville says:

      But this guy has got you sussed, and knows that the more numpties like you he catches, the longer he will hang around, leading you down roads you don’t really want to go down.

      Reply

      The question is why does he want to catch people? Is he just some evil c*nt who gets his rocks off trying to catch people out?

      What is the root cause of his sinister actions?

      Sinister Dave has been here for 10 years! How many times in those 10 years has he been ignored?

      Ignoring this particular troll doesn’t work?

    25. Sensible Dave says:

      Not Sir Robert Knight 8.18

      You wrote “I guess you could call your country what you like…”

      Aww, gee thanks Charlie – but in case you still haven’t grasped this – we really wouldn’t need/want your approval as it wouldn’t have anything to do with you. Have you got that yet?

    26. Ruby says:

      Dave Somerville says

      This guy casts his fishing rod out every day hoping to catch a numpty gatekeeper Nat, and he always manages to get one of those numpties to bite.

      Reply
      What is ‘a numpty gatekeeper Nat’?

      Who are these ‘numpty gatekeeper Nats”
      I can’t be the only one. Can you name names?

      There must be a fair number to have kept “Sinister Dave” hanging around for ten years.

    27. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Sensibledave says:
      1 July, 2021 at 8:04 am

      By the way, why do you call yourself Robert Knight when you haven’t got a knighthood?

      Disgraceful charlatan!
      ——————————-
      By the way, why do you call yourself Sensible Dave when you’re not sensible?

      Disgraceful charlatan!
      ———————–

      Ruby says: at 8:04 am

      Sinister Dave is more than just a troll.

      Trolls don’t usually hang about for decades.
      —————–
      No, but the “intellectual” smell does.

    28. Republicofscotland says:

      Another passionate indy supporter has died (and there will be many more under Sturgeon the Betrayers latest tenure) Jim Lynch was an editor of the monthly newspaper the Scottish Independent.

      Sturgeon the Betrayer had the audacity, to say she was so sad on his passing, and here I was thinking the royals were the lowest part of a snakes belly.

    29. Ruby says:

      I’m detecting a number of misogynistic bullies on this site.

      I seem to be subjected to abuse & told off for things male posters do but they escape censure & abuse.

    30. Republicofscotland says:

      Manchester’s mayor Andy Burnham, in a poll found that seven in ten Labour members would prefer him as leader to the millionaire knight of the realm Sir Keir Starmer, however Burnham isn’t an MP, and could not stand stand in any possible Labour leaders contest.

      Of course his spat with Sturgeon the Betrayer did his reputation no harm at all, pity then the current SNP MSPs/MPs are a gutless lot and won’t stand up to the Betrayer, if they did we might even think more of them, though at present we couldn’t think any less of them.

    31. Republicofscotland says:

      Meanwhile Ian (Scotland won’t stand for it) Blackford, had the brassneck to stand up in the HoC and shout out that EU citizens had been left in limbo.

      The fool should’ve shouted a bit louder and in the direction of Bute House for EU citizens who want to live in the UK are in a precarious position not due to Home office, (we expect shit from them on a daily basis) no they are in a uncertain position due to Sturgeon the Betrayer failing to hold an indyref since Brexit.

      Now the Betrayer of Scots, and EU citizens will once again finger point and blame everyone but herself.

    32. James says:

      “Sensible Dave” ‘my efforts to educate and inform’

      L O L

      What a wanker.

    33. Stuart MacKay says:

      So Voices for Independence, https://www.voices.scot has had it’s first full month of operation. I thought I’d take the liberty of posting some numbers since it gives me the chance of posting the link once more.

      Whenever someone clicks on a link to read a post it’s logged[1] so I can see if the site is being used. For June a total of 7177 posts were read – roughly 230 a day. There’s roughly 50 people using the site on a daily basis – based on the number of times a given post gets read (though I don’t know for sure).

      The top sites (with the number of posts read) for June were:

      1. Yours for Scotland (652)
      2. Jaggy.blog (647)
      3. Grumpy Scottish Man (646)
      4. Munguin’s New Republic (576()
      5. Scot goes Pop! (491)
      6. Peter A Bell (401)
      7. Craig Murray (377)
      8. Barrhead Boy (374)
      9. Grouse Beater (345)
      10. itisintruthnotforglory (305)

      Incodentally, Wee Ginger Dug comes in at #14. Not really surprising given the likely “demographic” of the readership but it will be interesting to see whether the position changes.

      The top posts for June were:

      1. Examples of Failure – Grumpy Scottish Man (71)
      2. And then they came for the dissenters – Angry Weegie (53)
      3. When a plan comes together – Yours for Scotland (52)
      4. Sturgeon must go – Iain Cameron (51)
      5. Yesterday for the first time, I was ashamed to be Scottish! – The Wee Detour (50)
      6. State Suppression – Craig Murray (50)
      7. “We’re here for the biggest comeback since Lazarus” – The Wee Detour (47)
      8. No One’s Missing Wee Eck? – Jaggy.blog (46)
      9. Jackie Baillie ear defenders – The Scottish Scaremonger (46)
      10., I’m finally compelled to admit it: the SNP leadership have become the biggest obstacle to independence – Scot goes Pop! (46)

      “Misery” posts are clearly the favourites but that’s hardly surprising given the circumstances. I’m pleased to see several posts from sites that did not make into the Top 10 Sites. It will be interesting to see whether they become more popular as a result.

      The whole idea is to get more people reading more blogs and hopefully get more people writing them. It’s still early days and the results so far are modest to say the least but the sustained daily traffic means that at least a few people are getting value out of this.

      [1] No ip addresses are logged so everyone’s reading habits remain private.

    34. Sensible Dave says:

      James

      ….. its a tough calling, but I feel it is my destiny to help wherever I can. Like any missionary, I have to accept that some of the natives may not fully appreciate or understand how their lives are being enhanced by my presence – but I carry the heavy burden with a jaunty and stoic conviction.

    35. Captain Yossarian says:

      I don’t know if anyone is following the Miami apartment block collapse, but it was inspected 3-years ago and the engineer said ‘get these areas of cracked concrete and rusty rebar fixed or they will deteriorate exponentially’.

      They didn’t get them fixed and, as a result, it appears that the thin concrete slab at the poolside collapsed onto the car-park floor below. That set-off a chain-reaction which brought the whole building down in seconds.

      There must have been something else wrong though – something pretty big if it was enough to do that? What they are examining at the moment is if tidal water was rising-up through the basement floors over the years, bringing sand with in. This was causing settlement and was washing away the soil from under the foundations. We’ve heard this story before haven’t we? Tidal water equals artesian water?

      Who is giving this advice at the moment? Well, the site is closed-off by the Federal Agencies (FEDS as they are called) and it is soil experts from the ‘American Society of Civil Engineers’ who are examining what they can of the site. These engineers are described as ‘the best of the best’ by the FEDS and their reports are handed straight to the Mayor of Surfside and possibly even to Joe Biden. They both take these reports seriously and will act upon them.

      They’ll be hoping that 40-odd expert opinions of the American Society of Civil Engineers weren’t handed to all at Holyrood 3-years ago. If they were, and they might have been, then I think we are all due an explanation as to why they have done nothing and nothing has been fixed. Would you not agree?

    36. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Sensible Dave says: at 11:32 am

      “James

      ….. its a tough calling, but I feel it is my destiny to help wherever I can. Like any missionary, I have to accept that some of the natives may not fully appreciate or understand how their lives are being enhanced by my presence – but I carry the heavy burden with a jaunty and stoic conviction.”
      ——————-

      destiny, missionary, natives, enhanced by my presence. 🙂 🙂

      Oh dear me, he’s taken the step over the edge to religious enlightenment now..!

      You’d be better off nipping down to your local foodbank, they need someone like you with some loaves of bread and fish to “conjure” up meals for the really needy in our society.

      And take Don and the other stand-in comedian Dave Somerville (you?) with you.

    37. Breeks says:

      J.o.e says:
      1 July, 2021 at 9:13 am
      @Breeks

      This is a reply to your comment on 29 June, 2021 at 2:47 am for which I put aside due to getting busy….

      Thing is J.o.e., I’m not denying that ethnic and racial differences exist or occur, whether it’s the colour of someone’s skin or having a physique strongly influenced by environment or diet, but as a basis for prejudice, discrimination, stereotypes, or any kind of rejection, ethnic and racial prejudice ignores the 99.99% of common traits shared between two humans and focuses upon the 0.01% of difference, which it then blows out of all proportion.

      You can’t say for example that all the best boxers are black African Americans is down to race. Before this can be put down to race, you would have to show that every African American had this innate boxing capacity, or sprint speed, or whatever. Because if they don’t, and that “racial” advantage is only found in 2-3% of the African American population, putting the distinction down to race is being wrong 97-98% of the time.

      “Maybe” a highly trained African American sportsman has some latent advantage in his genetic makeup, but maybe this is no more significant than a different race of boxer, say white, who grows to 6ft 6. … That gives him a genetic advantage over shorter people, but nobody puts it down to his race.

      It’s a difficult point to make, but we are all Jock Thomson’s Bairns. Our blood is the same colour. Our organs are in the same place and perform the same functions. That some of us grew up in a climate which darkened our skin while other grew up in a climate that drained it of pigment, is surely no basis for prejudice. You can make NO assumptions, zero, about a person by judging the skin colour.

      There is a brilliant study by an American Teacher, Jane Elliot, which brilliantly exposed the mechanism of racism and prejudice. She didn’t choose skin colour or ethnicity, but something wholly uncontroversial… she told her class that kids with brown eyes were better than kids with blue eyes, and sat back as they divided against themselves, with some of them turning into little nazis.

      The prejudice doesn’t come from race, but “being different” which forces some people to be a minority and gives other people power over them.

      Racism isn’t fundamentally about race. It’s all about power. If you watch the film, and hope you do, the “division” is a fiction about eye colour. Change the word “eye” for skin.

      youtu.be/1mcCLm_LwpE

    38. Breeks says:

      youtube.com/watch?v=1mcCLm_LwpE

      Trying again….

    39. Breeks says:

      For crying out loud. Damned links. … Sorry, just Google “A class divided- FRONTLINE” or Jane Elliot.

    40. Hatuey says:

      Captain Yossarian; “ I don’t know if anyone is following the Miami apartment block collapse…”

      Very much so. It seems to have fallen down quite neatly on its own footprint, which was lucky, I suppose.

      In other completely unrelated news, rumours suggesting John Mcafee had a condo in the Miami building are circulating…

      I see J.o.e is now supporting his opinions on race and culture with Hitler quotes. I formally express my disapproval… for the record.

      Strange days indeed.

    41. Ruby says:

      Her you are Breeks

      https://tinyurl.com/xm5fu9ds

      I just ‘tiny’ you tube links seems less complicated

    42. Ruby says:

      Graf Midgehunter says:
      1 July, 2021 at 12:33 pm

      destiny, missionary, natives, enhanced by my presence. 🙂 🙂

      Oh dear me, he’s taken the step over the edge to religious enlightenment now..!

      Reply

      Taking an in depth look at ‘Sinister Dave’ is very interesting.

      I wonder what a criminal profiler would make of him.

    43. robertknight says:

      @Sensible

      “as it wouldn’t have anything to do with you. Have you got that yet?”

      LoL…

      As Scottish independence hasn’t “anything to do with you”, why not just f*** off elsewhere?

      Got that?

      Utter roaster!

    44. Sensible Dave says:

      Graf 12.23

      You wrote “You’d be better off nipping down to your local foodbank, they need someone like you with some loaves of bread and fish to “conjure” up meals for the really needy in our society.”

      …. its sort of what I am metaphorically doing Graffy!. Man cannot live on bread alone.

      I know you think you are not learning from me – but I feel you are making good progress … and one day you will look back to these dark times and thank the Lord that your Superman equivalent, Sensible Dave, was there to guide you to the light.

    45. Alf Baird says:

      Breeks @ 12:54 pm

      “Racism isn’t fundamentally about race. It’s all about power. If you watch the film, and hope you do, the “division” is a fiction about eye colour. Change the word “eye” for skin.”

      Yes, an fowk micht e’en chynge the wird ‘language’ for ‘skin’, and we will still find ethnic discrimination and racism. Colonialism is racism after all, involving an ‘ethnic division of labour’ which is ‘all about power’, linguistically and culturally determined.

    46. Sensible Dave says:

      Robert Knight

      … as with Graffy, it is difficult for you when your most basic thoughts about stuff are challenged and crumble.

      Of course Scottish Independence has “something to do with me”! Unless or until Scotland ever does become an Independent country, the folk that make the laws over me come, from every constituency in the UK, including Scotland. A Scottish MP has the same degree of power over me as the MP for my constituency in God’s country.

      And, not wanting to keep banging on about it (because money isn’t everything), me and my neighbours down here are paying for your free prescriptions and free university educations – so of course we like to check in to see how you are progressing.

    47. robertknight says:

      @Sensible

      In the words of that archetypal English buffoon Mainwaring… “Stupid boy”

    48. Republicofscotland says:

      Sturgeon the Betrayer of Scots, and EU citizens, doesn’t do AUOB or indy marches, no, she just has their organisers imprisoned.

      Sturgeon the betrayer does do LGBTI+ marches, and in previous marches she can be seen waving and smiling and chatting away. Glasgow’s Pride march has been moved to September this year to allow it to be a physical event.

      Expect to see the Betrayer once again smiling and waving and chatting away at the march, after all she champions their cause ahead of the rest of society or independence.

    49. Mist001 says:

      When I was growing up in Embra, I never saw any black people. It was mostly Pakistani/Indian shopkeepers.

      Then when I was 16, my friend and I used to get the bus to work and a black guy started getting on the bus. Obviously we noticed his skin colour but that wasn’t our concern. We were in awe because he looked a bit like Jimi Hendrix!

      I was 28 years old before I actually met and spoke to black people. There was a group of them that came into the pub and used to get rat arsed but they were good fun. They were genuine Africans, direct from Kenya and Nigeria. Their governments had paid for them to come to Edinburgh to study Tropical Veterinary Medie and the The Royal Dick Vet at The Bush. I’m still sort of friends with Martin Lomuro, who is the current Minister of Cabinet Affairs at Government of South Sudan.

      I’m not saying that racism doesn’t exist in Scotland but what I’m trying to say is that as far as I’m personally aware, Scottish people have never had any problems with black people and if there is a problem now, then it has been purposely introduced and will be made worse by the rise in the BLM movement. That’s designed to cause division in a country like Scotland.

    50. Nally Anders says:

      Can you please sign this petition to have crimes recorded as per natal sex?
      Rape means penetrated by a penis.
      Women do not have penises.
      Thanks.
      https://petitions.parliament.scot/petitions/PE1876

    51. Stuart MacKay says:

      Nally forgot to say that the petition only runs for 4 weeks and closes on the 5th – 4 days away.

      The numbers collected don’t affect the people involved but hiding the statistics is a good way of making the problem look a lot less serious than it is. The secondary effects from this is that males that self-id as women will end up in women’s prison compounding the folly and likely to lead to more women being harmed.

      Sign it.

    52. Republicofscotland says:

      Its been revealed that the grandson of the most prolific state sponger in history, Prince William has visited Faslane naval base.

      The unionist royals have been working overtime in Scotland to try and save this farcical union, aided and abetted by England’s Tory government as Sturgeon the Betrayer does nothing on the indyfront.

      Far from withdrawing their nukes from Faslane, which is just thirty-miles from Scotland’s largest city, the English government has began constructing of a training facility at the base.

      Johnson’s government hasn’t skipped a beat with regards to Covid, whilst Sturgeon the Betrayer has used Covid of late to do nothing on the indyfront.

    53. cirsium says:

      @Hatuey, 12.41
      Apparently if they inject into a blood vessel by accident, which is always a risk, i.e. intravenous, it can cause such problems as Thrombocytopenia, blood clotting,

      Developing thrombocytopenia has nothing to do with an accidental injection. The numerous instances of thrombocytopenia and pathological blood clotting developing after injection are caused by the spike protein in the experimental injections. Thrombocytopenia can be fatal. https://archive.is/mF8ZK

      The spike protein is a toxin. It does not remain at the injection site but travels round the body and causes organ damage. After 48 hours, the lipids carrying the protein are concentrated in the ovaries.

      https://thewhiterose.uk/dr-byram-bridle-professor-of-viral-immunology-the-spike-protein-in-the-covid-vaccines-is-a-very-dangerous-toxin/

      Derek Sloan Canadian MP presser with 3 doctors including Dr Bridle on malfeasance over Covid handling. https://www.bitchute.com/video/j4XDhz2ZiBy9/

      This is an extract from an informative discussion involving Dr Robert Malone, the inventor of the mRNA technology https://www.reddit.com/r/BretWeinstein/comments/nzlgvm/spike_protein_is_very_dangerous_its_cytotoxic/

    54. Republicofscotland says:

      Anyone else noticed the amount of English accents now on the streets of Scotland. The Home Office has kept Scotland’s population small and manageable just the way they want it, so there must’ve been quite an influx of English settlers to Scotland when their accents are so prevalent.

      I suppose its a bit like the Israeli settlers moving in on the occupied Palestinians, without the violence of course, but still, the colonisation of Scotland never stops.

      Of course our Scottish culture has been suppressed for centuries, and most Scots don’t even notice it, or are too stupid to understand what’s really going on. The UN estimates that there are around five and a half million Palestinians still in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, I bet their culture is still intact, yet ours in tatters.

    55. Sensible Dave says:

      RoS

      Wow! Talk about stretched comparisons! Palestine and Scotland? The Scottish voters voted to remain part of the UK – whilst Palestinians voted for a terrorist based government that doesn’t even recognise Israel’s right to exist!.

      English accents being heard on the streets of Scotland!?!?

      I fear you may have become radicalised sir. Get some help!

    56. Republicofscotland says:

      I’m no fan of the unionist leaning GMB, but I have to agree with Glasgow’s GMB leader Gary Smith that its a joke that the COP26 is coming to the city. A city that is filthy, with bins overflowing rats running wild in the streets, meanwhile the SNP ran city council, ( and I thought Tammany hall ended with Labours control of the city) is closing down umpteen libraries and community rooms, the streets are crumbling and the roads are full of potholes.

      New cycle lanes have been created all over the city costing millions and many folk think that they were poorly thought out, the word is though that they were only put in place for the COP26 meeting so that the world’s dignitaries will pat Sturgeon the Betrayer on the back and say what a good job she’s doing, after the meeting is over the cycle lanes might also be cut.

    57. Republicofscotland says:

      “Palestinians voted for a terrorist based government that doesn’t even recognise Israel’s right to exist!.”

      You mean Dave they voted to remove the occupying forces, the oppressive, apartheid, military regime that is Israel, that has systematically beaten, murdered, abused and stolen the lands of the rightful owners the Palestinians since 1947/8.

    58. Ruby says:

      English accent = posh accent.
      Difficult to distinguish between posh English & Posh Scottish.

      We probably don’t have a huge problem with racism in Edinburgh but we certainly have a problem with discrimination on the grounds of class.

      Weird that it’s never discussed.

      I reckon a lot of these posh ‘Scottish’ think being Scottish is common hence the reason they want to be British.

    59. JimuckMac says:

      Captain! Maybe you would like to a little more research into the Miami building collapse linking the name John McAfee (internet virus protection) along with it.

    60. Dan says:

      @ ROS

      Craig Dalzell looked at new population growth figures last week.

      https://twitter.com/thecommongreen/status/1408351096238751748

      Plus here’s a link to ONS stats on migration which is a long page but has some interesting stuff.

      https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/bulletins/annualmidyearpopulationestimates/mid2020

      Test post of above ONS link to see if tinying the link works…

      tinyurl.com/sp9np9zv

    61. Captain Yossarian says:

      John McAfee hasn’t stayed in the US for years. The cause will be found and will be explained to everyone. For me at any rate, it’s all about how selective we want to be in appreciating risk.

      In the US, it will be the most highly decorated engineers they have that will decide upon this. ‘The best of the best’ as the Americans say. In Aberdeen, it is the Co-Leader of the City Council that decides upon these things (and I’m not kidding). Hence, don’t be surprised if the same thing happens here in a few years time.

    62. Saffron Robe says:

      Apologies as I can’t remember who posted the original link, but I watched the documentary “The Spider’s Web – Britain’s Second Empire” on YouTube and it was quite revealing how the financialisation of the UK following the collapse of the British Empire has led to de-industrialisation and the flight of capital to offshore tax havens, facilitated by a system of government based on privilege and patronage which seeks to maximise tax avoidance for an elite at the public’s expense.

      We are essentially being ruled by robber barons who are starving public services of funds whilst secreting money away in off-shore accounts to aid and abet a global network of fraud and criminality. The breakdown in public services is all too evident whilst the privileged elite – excessively wealthy individuals and multinationals like Amazon – pay no or very little tax. And was this not the purpose of Brexit? To protect these tax havens from scrutiny and accountability?

      How easily the people are fooled as the world slips into global totalitarianism to maintain this neo-liberal system of funnelling wealth to the rich and protecting their ill-gotten gains as society and the environment crumbles around us. And this is portrayed as a system of benevolence and largesse!

      The City of London is at the heart of this financial deceit and sleight of hand which is why Scottish independence frightens the horses so much – it risks pulling the carpet away from under their feet.

    63. Ruby says:

      Dan

      https://tinyurl.com/9y3fudc

      Tiny.url works but you need to include the
      https://

      You would copy the link from the Tiny.url site.

    64. Republicofscotland says:

      “I fear you may have become radicalised sir.”

      Really Dave, so you don’t think Scotland’s culture and history has been suppressed for centuries in favour of that of England’s and by default its people.

      You don’ think that the UK terrestrial channels carry predominately English content, infact they carry that much English content, that even Gordon Brown said that Coronation Street will save the union.

      If anything Dave Scots aren’t radicalised enough, of course we’re not supposed to speak out in this manner its portrayed as anti-English by the media and even the union loving SNP, its akin to speaking out against the Israelis and being branded anti-Semitic.

    65. Stuart MacKay says:

      For what it’s worth McAfee died in a Spanish jail a few days ago just before he was to be extradited to the USA, https://archive.is/fse54

      I doubt he’s been anywhere near Miami for quite a long time.

    66. twathater says:

      Again as people attempt to raise genuine concerns regarding the effect of immigration to our country our culture and our independence the usual veiled and some not so veiled accusations of racist, bigot, natzi or blood and soil nationalist is thrown about.

      Why are people not allowed to have their own opinions, why does the so called progressive opinion carry so much more weight, why is there so much focus, empathy and priority given to incomers when we have so much deprivation within our own citizenry

      What makes a refugee who has travelled through numerous safe countries to get to Scotland more deserving than our own citizens of social housing, social health and welfare benefits or any other assistance

      I abhor and revile the continuous UK interference in other countries business , interference ranging from financial corruption to open subversive operations designed to destabilise governments , interference which is causing and amplifying mass movements of people from their own countries and creating the refugee situation which is unsustainable

      With sturgeon opening up consultations to anyone from around the world that wants a say or opinion on pertinent and impactful legislation to Scottish citizens, should we now consider ourselves to be at the mercy of any minority interest group that can skew the numbers to their advantage
      Are our rules and regulations going to be decided and acted upon at the behest of non Scots

      I listened to the co-convener of the greens being interviewed on the news about crossover cooperation with the sturgeon junta , she appeared quite excited that the greens were now in a position to apply force to the sturgeon junta for policies which the greens have a vested interest in, I am under the impression the lady is from Canada that bastion of wokeness so it is good that she has imported a little bit of their progressive enlightenment with herself to educate the natives in the proper woke way forward

      The colonising and eradication of Scots, their history and culture is well under way , we will be citizens of nowhere and everywhere

    67. Hatuey says:

      Nobody suggested Mcafee was in Miami recently, or ever.

      It has been suggested that he had a condo in the building that went down. That is to say, he had property there, property that some might have understandably wished destroyed.

      Mcafee mixed in interesting circles.

    68. Dan says:

      @ twathater

      https://twitter.com/paulbsinclair/status/1398765925025947651

      Another “New Scot” here…

      https://archive.is/TFHvY

      A bit more on that particular character’s history.

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-cream-of-the-crop/

    69. Republicofscotland says:

      “With sturgeon opening up consultations to anyone from around the world that wants a say or opinion on pertinent and impactful legislation to Scottish citizens, should we now consider ourselves to be at the mercy of any minority interest group that can skew the numbers to their advantage
      Are our rules and regulations going to be decided and acted upon at the behest of non Scots”

      Twathater.

      Some very good points there, however uncomfortable others may find them.

      As for your above comment the great Scottish writer, Alasdair Gray noticed this trend almost a decade ago, and was roundly turned on.

      Sorry folks tried to archive but I was 8752 in the queue.

      https://www.scotsman.com/news/alasdair-gray-attacks-english-colonising-arts-2472787

    70. Republicofscotland says:

      So Johnson’s Tory government are to install a eight storey-high, yes you read it correctly a eight-storey high, Union Jack flag bang smack in the heart of Cardiff city centre.

      The Welsh have already set up a petition to stop it.

    71. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi ROS.

      It was archived by somebody at 17.46 tonight.

      https://archive.is/DZ0St

    72. Dan says:

      @ ROS

      Here’s archived link.

      https://archive.is/DZ0St

      It can be annoying when the queue is long for archiving.
      Top Tip, you can copy the link whilst it’s saving and then strip out the /wip part. 😉

    73. Charles Hodgson says:

      Hatuey says:
      1 July, 2021 at 6:31 pm
      “Nobody suggested Mcafee was in Miami recently, or ever.

      It has been suggested that he had a condo in the building that went down. That is to say, he had property there, property that some might have understandably wished destroyed.

      Mcafee mixed in interesting circles.”

      Hazmat Hatuey joins the conspiracy theorists. Worra turnup for the turnip!

    74. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Charles Hodgson (7.07) –

      ‘Hazmat Hatuey joins the conspiracy theorists. Worra turnup for the turnip!’

      🙂

      Hatuey can’t help himself.

      You just have to mention anything even vaguely virus-related and he’s in there like a shot.

    75. John Main says:

      @Breeks – 1 July, 2021 at 12:54 pm

      “You can make NO assumptions, zero, about a person by judging the skin colour.”

      I am confident that if I worked in a Pharmacy by the beach, I could assume who did not come in for suncream, so your statement is suspect.

      “There is a brilliant study by an American Teacher, Jane Elliot, which brilliantly exposed the mechanism of racism and prejudice.”

      And there’s an even better one discussed by Jordan Peterson. You pick 20 random volunteers off the street, making sure to vary age, gender, ethnicity, etc. Then you split them into two teams with equally diverse members, and assign the teams competitive tasks. At the end of the experiment, you question the team members about their feelings and attitudes and guess what. Many members express dislike and hostility to the members of the opposing team, proving that belonging, acceptance and tribalism are innate qualities to being human. I don’t want to be part of a “team” that tries to deny human nature by being unilaterally nice to the opposing team. Because the opposing team will eat my lunch.

      “The prejudice doesn’t come from race, but “being different” which forces some people to be a minority and gives other people power over them.”

      So the answer is right in front of your nose. Equalise all differences to end minorities. 50-50 white people and black people, straight people and gay people, cis people and trans people, native Scots and immigrants, rich and poor, healthy and ill. Pro-Indy and Anti-Indy.

      I could go on, but can’t be bothered, cos the nonsense is already clear enough. You continue to work towards your ultimate non-prejudicial stalemate but I can’t see many other people voting for it.

      FFS. Life’s a struggle. Competition is everywhere. Independence won’t be handed over on a plate, and if we ever get it, we won’t be handing it over to anybody else on a plate, regardless of how bad that will make you feel.

    76. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Song for Hatuey…

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRa6_YvP0s

    77. Liz g says:

      Twatthater @ 5.37
      Totally agree Twatthater there’s nothing wrong in having the conversation.
      Espically for a country like Scotland stuck in the halfway house of a major and minor Parliament one which needs to deal with emigration and one which needs to deal immigration.
      But mainly that we have no power over the Parliament that has a track record of using shifting populations under its control to harness power.
      I don’t think Scotland should wed itself to an open ended franchise espically for refferendums .
      This would only encourage Westminister to attempt some form of “plantation ” if they can keep the Union together long enough.
      We must never give the ground to Westminister that the franchise for Independance is a done deal and always make it clear we will choose at the time.
      Race or country of birth are the distractions they like us to stick to, but I’d argue the only real and fair way to decide who gets to vote or be consulted in matters is by using the tax system.( that’s being eligible to pay Scottish tax and not paying to vote )
      The only real debate is how to apply a time frame to gaining voting rights.
      Also
      We seemed to have no bother making the distinction with university fees I’d argue that we should also be looking at the same arrangements with the NHS in Scotland, for England in particular.
      England is it seems the only country people can retire from to here and draw down on NHS Scotland having never contributed to it here
      It’s not about ethnicity at all and Scotland needs people it’s about where you paid your taxes.
      I do know that the USA also have some kind of tax on their citizens who live abroad and they therefore can keep their voting rights,but I’m not clear on the details…. we should have a conversation about that too.
      Then there’s …
      Scots who don’t live in Scotland want seem to want a vote … well then , surely they need to be paying into the Scottish tax system ?
      No representation without taxation ?
      These are conversations long past due but we keep getting stymied by those too quick to play the racism card and I’d argue that says more about where their mind is at than those who want a debate.

    78. Republicofscotland says:

      Thanks Brian and Dan.

    79. Republicofscotland says:

      Liz.g @7.42pm.

      Well said Liz.

    80. Alf Baird says:

      Liz g @ 7:42 pm

      “No representation without taxation”

      A vote on the self-determination or independence of a defined ‘people’ and nation has little to do with taxation.

      In many former plundered colonies most of the natives lived in poverty and hence were unable to pay much if any tax. Something like a third of Scots live in or close to poverty. Their liberation is not about taxation.

    81. Dave Somerville says:

      I see ANOTHER SNP 1 AND 2 Lezzy, and stuanch Anti Salmond and Pro Sturgeon supporter has decided to show her face again.

    82. Breeks says:

      John Main says:
      1 July, 2021 at 7:33 pm
      @Breeks – 1 July, 2021 at 12:54 pm

      “You can make NO assumptions, zero, about a person by judging the skin colour.”

      I am confident that if I worked in a Pharmacy by the beach, I could assume who did not come in for suncream, so your statement is suspect.

      But what are you assuming? Suppose a black person came in to buy sun cream for his partner….


      I could go on, but can’t be bothered, cos the nonsense is already clear enough. You continue to work towards your ultimate non-prejudicial stalemate…

      Nobody has mentioned non-prejudicial stalemate except you, largely because it is total nonsense. Those kids weren’t being educated for any non-prejudicial stalemate. They were being educated to recognise how stupid, ignorant, and lacking in foundation a totally irrational and arbitrary prejudice could be, and to further spare a thought for the victim.

      If you don’t teach your kids to recognise the evils of prejudice, then don’t be surprised when they grow up to be narrow minded bigots and racists who strut about Glasgow banging big bass drums and looking like they’re mentally subnormal.

    83. John Main says:

      Breeks

      Thanks for your reply. I guess we will remain in our respective silos, howling at the light above and thinking it’s the moon.

      I am disappointed you did not respond to my example showing the innate hard-wired tendency of humans to be tribal. You would have to explain why, if that is such a bad thing, every race and culture on earth exhibits this trait. It is almost as if it confers some evolutionary advantage in the struggle for survival. I wonder if there were ever any isolated tribes who practised unilateral tolerance, kindness, generosity and sympathy to those others who stumbled upon their utopian societies. I wonder what happened to them.

      I take your point about teaching kids to avoid the worst excesses of ignorance. I certainly hope you teach yours that it is possible to steer a middle ground that also includes standing up for yourself, your family, your friends, and the fellow citizens of your country.

      Sorry you are troubled by the narrow minded bigots and racists who strut about Glasgow banging big bass drums and looking like they’re mentally subnormal. Surely they are a minority and as such, you should be vocal in their defence?

    84. Captain Yossarian says:

      @John Main – “the innate hard-wired tendency of humans to be tribal”. I spent a few years in Libya, just prior to the war there. There were two distinct factions – the Gadaffis and the anti-Gadaffis.

      Ironically, when Gadaffi was alive everything was peaceful and there were hardly any police in evidence anywhere. They both disliked each other to the extent that they wouldn’t even sit around the same table at a meeting.

      Gadaffi gave all Libyans guns thirty years ago when he was afraid that the Americans were going to invade. The Libyans held-on to these guns and kept them under their beds. As soon as the war started, they brought them out and have been shooting at each other ever since.

      What we have in Glasgow, on a worldwide scale anyway, is really nothing serious.

    85. Saffron Robe says:

      “War, cruelty, exploitation – all man’s inhumanity to man is a thing imposed by civilisation, not sprung from innate savagery.”

      Lewis Grassic Gibbon

    86. Dave Somerville says:

      Just hearing that england fans traveling from UK are banned from entering Italy for their game on Saturday against Ukraine.

      Best of luck with that one Mr Italian policeman.

      And did I mention that Ukraine is my most favourite team, (as Del Boy would say).

      C’mon Ukraine!!!

    87. Liz g says:

      Alf Baird @ 8.22
      That’s not what I said at all Alf.
      I said that those who would be *eligible *to pay tax in Scotland are the ones who should vote.
      I did NOT say that only people actually paying INCOME tax should vote.

      And for the avoidance of doubt every last one of us pays tax anyway , there is no purchase or activity that doesn’t have revenue attached to it somewhere along the line.
      Therefore, if a persons personal economic activity is generating Scottish taxes no matter how, that person should have voting rights.

      A Scottish tax code would be the only requirement and all that remains to be decided is the time frame of having such a tax code before voting rights are triggered.
      Don’t forget ( because the people in Goverments tend to ) that the Goverments ONLY actual job is to gather in revenue and make the spending decisions for overall society on our behalf , And, supposedly with our approval.
      Which is very much what I mean by linking representation and taxation or taxation and representation ….
      NHS Scotland being a perfect example…… we pay for it and we pay them to manage it in our best interests so we should be able to debate and decide the what, the where and the who of it unapologetically, and instruct our Goverment accordingly .
      But more than that to find and install a Goverment that can follow our wishes.

      The paying of tax is what gives us the electoral authority to charge Goverment to manage our contributions .
      So I’d say that if you want to vote in Scotland it is in Scotland that ye register to pay Tax.
      Everything else flows from that including “nae vote nae opinion”.

      Also
      Those from outside Scotland who seem to want to vote should be required to contribute , if that is a road we want to go down …. I’m not a fan of people who choose not to live here voting, but we still should explore the pros and cons of it before deciding.

    88. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Please check the 5 mins of the latest edition of UK Column, from 1hr25mins on.

      The 5 minutes in question show what senior staff in Scottish schools are being told re ‘anti-vax’ propaganda, and details the horrors it may produce in the minds of our children.

      Please bear in mind that this stuff isn’t being aimed at the children themselves – it’s directed squarely at those charged with their ‘education’ on a day-to-day basis (i.e. when the schools are actually open).

      (PS The segment starting at 1hr16, about legal action against the head of the WHO in India, is also well worth a watch – you certainly won’t be seeing it on the BBC anytime soon.)

      http://www.ukcolumn.org/ukcolumn-news/uk-column-news-30th-june-2021

    89. James says:

      May I recommend Michael Moore’s ‘Where to Invade Next’ to the zoomers on here and particularly ‘Don’ & ‘Sensible’ Dave?

    90. Hatuey says:

      “You just have to mention anything even vaguely virus-related and he’s in there like a shot.”

      The virus debate is essentially over. The pro-disease crackpots lost.

      The skirmish was part of a wider war that’s being waged on several fronts right now against science. The vaccine debate, the gender debate, the race debate, amongst others, they all hinge on a rejection of basic science and once universally accepted truths.

      As far as Mcafee and the so-called conspiracies surrounding his life and death are concerned, I’d recommend people pay more attention to the facts. It’s a fact that he said he’d never commit suicide. It’s also a fact that he said he had been threatened but that he had information that would be released in the event of his death.

      The collapse of a building that he allegedly owned an apartment in, the day after his suspicious death, ought to raise eyebrows. He had basically declared war on the Clintons, claimed to have all sorts of information on them, and seemed poised recently to name names with regards to the death of Epstein.

      It’s a much more interesting pile of smouldering rubble than Scottish politics, although that also collapsed suspiciously on its own footprint…

    91. wull says:

      Sturgeon does not believe Scotland is a nation. She thinks it’s a platform. For her.

      And for her own whackey ideas. Which she and her pals (from anywhere at all) want to promote so that they take over the whole world.

      She wants to make Scotland a platform for the ideology to which she has always subscribed, even though she kept it well hidden.

      This is theft.

      She is stealing Scotland from the Scots. And treating Scotland as if it was her own personal estate.

      Everyone (= everyone that suits her) can have a say about Scotland’s future. Not those born and bred here, not those living here, not those paying taxes here, not those voting here – but only those who will support her agenda. The place is to be defined not by the Scottish nation – how she hates the word National – but by that kept-in-the dark ideology to which she subscribes.

      So much for the discussion above among contributors to this site associating voting rights in Scotland with being on the Scottish tax register.

      If that principle goes back to the old American 1776 principle of ‘no taxation without representation’, Sturgeon has turned it on its head.

      What she is saying is: you Scottish folk pay the taxes, and I’ll select my own buddies from all over the world to promote here, in what used to be Scotland, the agenda that I want.

      She wants US to pay for HER bright new day, since she is the New Dawn of the Sexless, Mindless, Gender-Plastic, Manipulated Humanity she wishes to bring into existence. (Maybe her real literary hero – save this for her next appearance at the Book Festival – is Mary Shelley, the creator of Frankenstein.) Scotland is to be turned into the giant zoo where this experiment will take place.

      Scotland is no longer to belong to Scots, but to whoever promotes, adores and goes along with this reality-denying final solution, in which humanity itself will be dissolved.

      For this to happen Scotland needs to be wrested from the Scots. So who is going to step up for that one? ‘Here I am’, says Nicola: ‘Choose ME!’

      Since this is theft, she is the spiritual descendant and successor of Edward I of England. The modern version thereof. With a new ideology. Not just the old English imperialism of Longshanks Eddie, or even of Pot-Belly Boris. These were minor thieves, petty criminals, compared to what is going on now. These two – Eddie and Boris = will soon seem comparatively benign compared to what is coming next from Nicola. Welcome to the Brave New World of ‘Sex is simply a commodity’ of Nicola – to be acquired off the shelf, chosen at whim, and declared at will.

      Those who thought you were voting for something akin to the Arbroath Declaration didn’t get it. They have voted in the Dreghorn Declarer instead, and they’ll get the fright of their lives when they see the true content of the previously carefully hidden ‘Dreghorn Declaration’.

      A’ the world’s a Dreg Act…
      Auld Horny has his way…
      Male and Female sex is sack’t…
      For this is Nick La’s Day.

      Auld Nick… and Young Nick:
      They mad’ a tryst the gither:
      Whit a black-arts partnership
      Tae mak’ auld Scotia wither

      On that stem, that a’ but flowered,
      In Twenty-Fower-teen;
      Thae twa’ thieves ha’e o’erpower’d
      The Guid that micht ha’ been:

      Perverted have they Scotlan’s hope,
      For roon’ oor necks, they’ve hank’t thir rope!

      How dare Nicola Sturgeon open up the discussion about what is supposed to happen in Scotland to the whole world?

      Indeed, NOT to the whole world as such. But only, in practice, to anyone at all in that whole wide world who agrees with her.

      That means opening Scotland exclusively to the ‘woke world’. The wide woke world! Which in practice is the narrowest of worlds imaginable.

      She can’t give Scotland away like this. It doesn’t belong to her. Scotland is not hers to give.

      If she gets what she wants, it will mean putting to the sword the traditional Scottish male! Remember, after the ’14 referendum, that Scottish Labour MP calling for the wounded to be bayonetted? maybe we forgot it, but Nick La didn’t.

      The Hate Crime Bill – together with the abolition of juries – will do the job nicely for her. The Bill that says ‘Me and my government can hate whoever we like, and get them locked up’, for ‘if anyone hates us or our ideology or the agenda we are imposing on them, they will be shown no mercy.’

      In other words, like Edward I, Nicola has raised dragon! Against whom? Basically all of us, those Scots who will not comply.

      As for the compliant – the oh so pliable compliant – are there any real Scots left on the SNP benches at Holyrood? I’m looking but so far… But if there are some, time for them to STAND UP! Even one would be a start…

      Where are you?

    92. Dave Somerville says:

      Will. 12.40am

      The whole stinkin lot of them have took a leaf out of their leaders handbook.

      From your local councillor to Holyrood and Westminster, they are all in it for the money.

      They know Independence would upset the gravy train.

      So the plan is to string the Indy line out for as long as possible.

      And Sturgeon has the other half involved, so their income is massive, along with the limousine lifestyle and the City mansion.

      No need to spend a coin on anything.

      She is also perfectly placed to push through her Pervy Trans laws and other hated Bills that have absolutely nothing to do with Scottish Independence.

      And I still say my wee prayer every night, hoping the perverted Lezzy bastard wakes up deed one morning.

    93. twathater says:

      Thanks Dan, ROS,Liz G and Wull for your comments, unfortunately I believe it is not just sturgeon who is responsible for handing over control of the voting franchise to incomers , the current and previous franchise was in effect for our 2014 bid for freedom and that debacle is responsible for the situation we are in today

      The irony is that sturgeon and Salmond in their efforts to proclaim their progressiveness and inclusivity to the world sentenced Independence to defeat as has been proven

      Whilst conversely Cameron and the tories who don’t give a shit what anyone thinks about fairness or democratic representation acted in a way they thought would benefit their aims by blocking EU citizens from the brexshit vote thus lowering their chance of defeat , tories will do anything to WIN with no guilt or compassion

      I have read many comments from new Scots who are angered at any proposal which would follow UN guidelines which may exclude them from a vote but TBQH if I as a newcomer believed in Scottish Independence I would have NO PROBLEM in sacrificing my vote if it resulted in a better chance to achieve my goal , if it has been proven that 70% of new Scots voted against indy at the 2014 ref then surely insisting on the same franchise would make you a willing accomplice to sabotage

    94. Charles Hodgson says:

      twathater says:
      “Whilst conversely Cameron and the tories who don’t give a shit what anyone thinks about fairness or democratic representation acted in a way they thought would benefit their aims by blocking EU citizens from the brexshit vote thus lowering their chance of defeat , tories will do anything to WIN with no guilt or compassion.”

      You believe Cameron wanted LEAVE to succeed and therefore be compelled to resign his Premiership?!!!

      You should get together with Hazmat Hatuey. The warm summer nights will fly by.

    95. J.o.e says:

      @Breeks

      I would like to say that acknowledging the differences in race and ethnicity and the difference in trends those small differences might cause is not he same as justifying prejudice.

      Also I would like to say that a trend does not have to be shown every time, a trend can have many outliers and still be a trend.

      But my point isn’t actually racial differences. It isn’t even differences in culture. In fact I would actually like for you to be totally correct in this part of the discussion.

      My main point is that our political and financial rulers are making sure mass immigration happens in all European countries, and countries where Europeans are majority population while simultaneously ramping up massive amounts of anti European, mainly anti northern European propaganda. This while giving over our democratic franchise to those same newcomers.

      As I have been saying for some time now – this has been planned and written about for a long time. These people, who are often from their own radically supremacist racial/religious group are going to use people against each other to fracture society. Indeed they already are and they have stated those intentions before the 20th century and on into the early 20th century.

      The result will be the minimising of social capital, the only thing poorer people have, which is the result of healthy community and at the same time ramp up their ability to increase financial capital for which there will be less cohesive pushback because they will have turned societies on one another.

      Strong nations of united people with common heritage who work for their own well being as a people are a problem to them because this group association is rooted in reality and is not some abstract concept.

      They attempt to spin this as the worst kind of racism and prejudice (any notion of home and heritage or ‘soil and blood’) in order for ordinary people to support their efforts in destroying it.

      This last statement while absolutely true can lead the open minded down a rabbit hole which somewhat tips worldviews on their heads.

    96. Sensible Dave says:

      Dave Somerville 10:26 pm

      You wrote “And did I mention that Ukraine is my most favourite team, (as Del Boy would say).”

      Haha! Love it. This is one area where anti-English comments are 100% allowable.

      Hopefully, your favourite team struggle and lose 4-3 with Mr Yarmelenko (of the mighty Hammers) scoring a hat trick.

      As a fervent England supporter as well as a long time Wings supporter, I am very excited about the potential prospects for comments on this subject in the coming days. Fingers crossed.

      PS Anyone but Murray!

    97. Stuart MacKay says:

      From the IRS:

      If you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, the rules for filing income, estate, and gift tax returns and paying estimated tax are generally the same whether you are in the United States or abroad. Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside.

      So if you live outside the US you pay taxes twice. There does not appear to be a way of deducting the taxes paid to one country from the amount owed to the other. Pretty brutal.

    98. Ruby says:

      Sinister Dave is completely insane!

    99. Effigy says:

      The English are certainly entitled to their opinion and democracy
      but I’m absolutely gobsmacked as the how a majority of their working
      class voters can back Boris and the Tories?

      Brexit has been an unmitigated disaster leading to shortages of EU goods
      threatening peace in Ireland and exported foods rotting at ports plus the loss
      of EU temporary workers.

      Then for sleaze we have billions handed over to fellow Tories in corrupt contracts
      including PPE kit and track and trace with not only Hancock giving contracts to suit his
      and family share investments and even his pub landlord.
      We see that his bit on the side was handed a job without qualifying and it turns out many others
      have been handed executive director rolls across the country simply because they fund the Tories.

      We have others paying for Bojo’s flat refurbishment, free holidays and confirmation from American
      Blond Jennifer Accura that they had affairs while he invested his time and our money in her company.

      We have the Cummings debacle from his travels that Bojo backed and now we hear he swore the
      man he put in charge of the NHS was rated incompetent and useless.

      The first year of Covid management was yet another disaster that they hope is forgotten as the vaccination numbers increase but how great is the U.K. when it still has the highest death total in
      Europe and a larger country like Germany with lower vaccine rates have fewer new cases and lower daily death rates.

      No economy has been crashed to a greater degree due to the enormous hand outs to Tory friends
      and yet England votes for these situations to continue and grow?

      Labour just scraped an election victory last night in a working class area and I’d guess many only
      gave them a vote as a former Labour MP was shot dead while representing them and her sister
      was the candidate.

      Incredibly Batley even gave over 8,000 votes to George I want to be the cat Galloway?
      The Crackpot in the hat with more parties than Hugh Hefner??

      I can pretty much always understand peoples perspective when opposed to mine but what the hell
      are English voters seeing or refusing to see in Bojo?

      Dear God, Ian Duncan Smiths think tank are promoting a retirement age of 75.
      What’s not to like about that England?

    100. Breeks says:

      John Main says:
      1 July, 2021 at 9:30 pm

      I am disappointed you did not respond to my example showing the innate hard-wired tendency of humans to be tribal. You would have to explain why, if that is such a bad thing, every race and culture on earth exhibits this trait. It is almost as if it confers some evolutionary advantage in the struggle for survival…

      Because there are two sides to this trait.

      For arguments sake, let’s suppose the intensely “tribal” sensations you can experience in modern times is in contact sport, say rugby, Aussie rules, where you are in a “team” or “tribe”.

      While the match is in progress, you embrace the tactics of the battlefield, probing and exploiting their weaknesses, mitigating and nullifying their strengths. There is frequently no quarter asked for or given, and the “warriors” are investing everything of themselves for the good of the tribe.

      But when the final whistle goes, the rivalry is at an end. The differences are (usually) settled, and paradoxically, even losing narrowly to a superior team which should have thrashed you but couldn’t, is more rewarding than walking all over a greatly inferior team.

      And then there’s another twist. When you’re good at your “art”, you get selected to go forward to representative matches, and suddenly there you are, teammates with the very people you looked upon as enemies the weekend before. The best of your tribe and the best of the enemy tribe has come together to face off against a “new” challenge to the tribe.

      In my personal experience, it didn’t matter a jot whether your teammates were white, black, Asian, Chinese or sometimes part gorilla.

      Your warrior spirit “tribalism” was thus managed, turned into a discipline that you could turn on and off like a switch.

      The tribalism which you describe John Main sounds to me like an undisciplined tribalism, more of a stunted development, a potential which could have been steered into something positive but was left feral to go to waste.

      I always found very, very little prejudice amongst actual players, and less and less prejudice the better they got. There was more visceral hatred in the crowds than on the pitch. Just look at that appalling jeering of the wee German lassie in tears because Germany was losing. This is the same tribe, but NOT the same tribalism as exists between the players on the pitch.

      As a society, we need to teach kids to have that discipline within themselves, that judgement and understanding is an infinitely superior philosophy to live by than ignorance and prejudice. Competitive sports is a great educator for so much more than sport.

      The irony I suppose, is that some people will think that I’m a bleeding heart liberal advocating giving everybody a vote come IndyRef2, but that’s not what I’m saying. I’m actually in the “other” tribe, who thinks only Scottish citizens of Scottish Nationality should be given a vote, not because of favouritism or prejudice, but because the fate of Scotland should be decided by Scots Nationals.

      The point I’m trying to make, is do it correctly, and those excluded or denied a vote will understand, and not feel slighted or cheated by their exclusion, because this is Scotland and the UK, and we must realise there WILL be elements in both tribes who will “jeer at wee girls”, and piss in the punch bowl for badness, just to cause trouble.

      For a long time I have advocated a Constitutional/ Legal defence of Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution, even where that lay at odds with democracy, but I also cautioned that the biggest threat to a Constitutional resolution, the best way to make it fail, was to thrust it on the people without warning or build up.

      The greatest failure of the SNP, (and don’t even mention the absurdity of Nicola Sturgeon), the BIG mistake is that even now, the whole issue of Scotland’s Constitution, the lawful popular sovereignty of the people, is still unknown to the vast majority of the Scottish electorate, when we need that population word perfect on the text. To many of “us” are seduced by the fallacies of Westminster colonialism and their assertion that Scotland was extinguished by the Union.

      We are NOT developing that knowledge as a discipline amongst our people, and we should be. It’s a game changer, but to succeed, the principle must be steered through a series of Herculean challenges, Scotland’s enemies WILL seek to portray our Nation’s self defence as bigoted tribal prejudice, and frankly, the SNP doesn’t seem remotely up to the job. It feels like we’d be putting our greatest weapon into the hands of our dumbest amateurs.

    101. Ruby says:

      The misogynistic bully boy is a big fan of “Insane Dave”
      Should be fun watching him & ‘Insane Dave’ chatting about football over the next few days.

    102. Sensible Dave says:

      Effigy 8.15

      You wrote “I can pretty much always understand peoples perspective when opposed to mine but what the hell are English voters seeing or refusing to see in Bojo?”

      In England, at the last election, we had two choices of potential Prime Minister. Johnson or Corbyn. As we have discussed before, we chose the least worse.

      As an aside, its a bit rich criticising English voters when, in the run up to the last election, most of the comments here were about how corrupt, ("Tractor" - Ed)ous and useless Ms Sturgeon and the SNP were … and folk from here then voted SNP 1!?!?!?

      …. give me a break sir.

    103. Stuart MacKay says:

      The charges of bigot have little to do with the views expressed and more to do with singling out an individual and have them excluded or shunned by their peers through fear of them also being charged with the same offence.

      That this tactic is liberally and indiscriminately applied by groups that preach inclusiveness would be funny beyond measure if the consequences weren’t so serious.

    104. Alf Baird says:

      Liz g @ 10:40 pm

      “I said that those who would be *eligible *to pay tax in Scotland are the ones who should vote.”

      Eligibility to pay tax is only one element of the national balance sheet. You forget that under colonialism much of the national assets and resources in a nation are plundered by ‘offshore’ entities. Think of land, energy, and the many largely self-regulating offshore monopolies merrily exploiting Scotland and its people, mostly tax free.

      In any other country the eligibility to vote in national referendums and national elections is restricted only to the ‘nationals’ of that country. Eligibility to pay tax in a country is a quite different matter. What Scotland needs to do is to define who its ‘national’s are, which then determines the ‘national’ referendum/election franchise. That is not a difficult task, most countries are able to do it.

      The Scottish referendum franchise used in 2014 was a local government franchise which would be unlawful for national referendums in all other countries.

    105. Effigy says:

      I wasn’t a Corbyn fan but I’d have had him or any party leader
      other than Bojo.

      The idiot is corrupt, a racist, a bully, a pathological liar, serial adulterer,
      and general buffoon and you call that the best choice?

      Sturgeons actions in the Salmond affair stink to high heaven but on corruption
      stakes compared to team Bojo she is a novice.
      She has brought benefits to Scotland while Boris has taken them away.

      Give me a break Boris is the greater good????

    106. Daisy Walker says:

      OT – just seen Kit Kat Mhairi’s latest video to WM.

      Had to switch the volume off due to her bullshit, but what was interesting was her eyes.

      Bright and glassy, like she’s running a fever.

      What a dissapointment she’s become.

      Can I refer you also to Iain Lawson’s latest article today – it provides some stats for the true state of play with regards crimes against Transgender persons in Scotland.

      Kind regards to all.

    107. ScotsRenewables says:

      Republicofscotland says:
      1 July, 2021 at 4:12 pm
      Anyone else noticed the amount of English accents now on the streets of Scotland.

      Listen wankpiece, I still have an English accent and I have lived here for 55 years.

      Away and burn down a holiday cottage, ya utter roaster.

    108. Sensible Dave says:

      Effigy 9.28

      … the alternative was a Corbyn/McDonnell double act.

      Two people that have publicly stated their desire to end capitalism …. the only economic system that has proven to improve the health and wealth of its citizens.

      Socialism has shown itself to fail every single time it has been tried. Every single time. Usually, it also ends with tyrannical despots killing its citizens by the million too.

      The good folk of England (and Scotland I assume) will never vote for a socialist government again. So, the likes of Corbyn make “anyone else” the preferred option I’m afraid.

      I note you didn’t comment on the “Vote SNP 1” line here on wings (whilst everyone wrote screeds about how corrupt Sturgeon was/is, the Scottish Government was/is, the Scottish Judiciary was/is, the the Scottish Police was/is.)

      …. so, no lectures from you on this subject please.

    109. Stonewall controlled She/Her/SNP government at Holyrood want your views on how things are going,

      https://engage.parliament.scot/group/10027

      maybe worth giving them your thoughts on what they are up to.

    110. Ruby says:

      ScotsRenewables says:
      2 July, 2021 at 9:40 am
      Republicofscotland says:
      1 July, 2021 at 4:12 pm
      Anyone else noticed the amount of English accents now on the streets of Scotland.
      Listen wankpiece, I still have an English accent and I have lived here for 55 years.

      Reply

      Are you able to tell me what an ‘English’ accent is?

      There are many accents in England.

      Does English accent mean ‘posh accent’?

      Perhaps the increase in ‘English’ accents is due to the increase in staycations combined with the activists from ‘The Union Unit’ here to try to save the precious Union.

      ‘Saffron Robe’ complained about the number of 4×4’s on the streets of Glasgow.

      Perhaps the two are connected. Perhaps all these lord & ladies with ‘English accents’ who donated to ‘Scotland in Union’ have decided to follow the royals in their efforts to save the precious Union. I believe their prince visited the plebs in Glasgow.

      Missionaries coming to Scotland in their 4×4’s.

      While the ‘Insane Dave’ missionary is restricted to posting on Wings where after ten years he has had only one convert. Another mental poster called Dave.

      Hopefully ‘ScotsRenewables’ won’t be a second. I’m pretty sure he just had a bit of a ‘snowflake moment’ and after 55 years living in Scotland he won’t start ranting on about anti-English (whatever that is)

    111. Ruby says:

      Voting SNP1 in the Holyrood election had absolutely nothing to do with Sturgeon.

      The choice at the Holyrood election was either voting for a Scottish Party or a British Party.

      Voters decided to vote Scottish.

    112. Ruby says:

      My view of what is meant by an ‘English’ accent is a ‘plummy post accent’ they could be ‘English’ or ‘Scottish’.

      My view of what is mean by ‘English’ is arrogant people with the ‘plummy posh accent’ & racists who are members of the EDL & other similar organisations. They too probably have an accent but it ain’t posh however both groups have similar views on immigration.

      Everyone else in England I would describe as Gordies, Brummies, Yorkies, etc. same applies to their accents. Officially they would all be British with ‘British accents’ 😉

      I’ve asked ‘Mental Dave the Missionary’ who claims to be here to educate us natives to define what he means by ‘anti-English’ but he has failed to answer.

      ‘The Union Unit’ might need to recruit a more informed missionary.

    113. Sensible Dave says:

      Ruby

      Ok., so I get it now …

      If a Scottish voter “holds their nose” and makes a pragmatic choice, that they judge is the least worse given their goals/aims – then that is a righteous cause.

      If English voters do exactly the same thing they are a despicable people?

      Got it. doh!

    114. Stuart MacKay says:

      So, “Social justice committee wants to hear from unpaid carers about impact of carer’s allowance”, https://archive.is/Qqog7

      But there’s not enough money to pay the people who kept public facilities and services running during the pandemic, because they are “not on a par with health workers so could not expect a similar offer”. https://grumpyscottishman.wordpress.com/2021/07/02/tartan-tories/

      The public purse is not bottomless but if your going to “manage expectations” then telling a group that they’re not as worthy as another group doesn’t win many prizes other than “Buffoon of the Week”.

    115. Dave Somerville says:

      Ruby

      Voting SNP 1 in Govanhill helped keep the perverted Lezzy Leader in a job.

      You don’t half talk a lot shite Ruby.

      Bring back the guy Cameron b Brodie any day.

      Did you not vote SNP 1 AND 2 Ruby?

      So you, and numpties like you, are to blame for the continuation of the SNP government and all that they stand for, including keeping us in this stinkin Union with England.

      Well done there Ruby and Co.

    116. wull says:

      Thank you Alf Baird @ 9.12 a.m. for that sane and excellent comment. The point you make indicates how Bojo’s attempt to enfranchise Scots outside Scotland for Indyref2 could backfire on him. To do that there would need to be a legally defined and recognisable criterion for who is a Scot.

      The obvious way to achieve this, and perhaps the only way to gain clear international recognition for it, would be to establish a register of Scottish citizens.

      Those wishing to register as Scots would still have to meet agreed-upon criteria which would make them eligible for obtaining such citizenship. There would certainly be plenty of arguments around these criteria: How much does place of birth count? Or present residence (and/or length thereof)? Or eligibility to pay taxes to the Scottish government, and so on. But even that conversation, aimed at fixing the criteria that would be legally necessary, would be a very worthwhile exercise, not least in raising consciousness.

      While the UK still exists, it would already start a re-conceptualization of the nature of the UK which certain Unionists would resist on purely pragmatic grounds, because they would see it as threatening their (virulently anti-independence) agenda, but which other, more reasonable supporters of the Union – including large masses of the general public throughout the UK – would support.

      After all, the Bill that brought in the register would simply be recognising that there are Scottish citizens of the UK. This, in turn, would lead to many English people claiming their right to be recognised as English citizens of the UK. With the rise in English nationalism, it is natural that most English people would want this. So too, similarly, and respectively, with Welsh and Northern Irish citizens of the UK.

      Bojo may have unwittingly unleashed something that he will not, in the long run, be able to control. His cronies started running the hare of the ‘Four Nations UK’. That hare actually contradicts the history of how the UK came into existence, and in so doing it undermines the true nature of the Union, by implicitly overturning its historical and legal – and therefore constitutional – foundations.

      The hare was false, but they were the dogs that ran it – so, now, they will have to try and catch up with it. But, let me warn them, any time I ever went to the dogs – (alas, no more!) – the dogs never caught the hare.

      Not even once.

      So, too late for me to warn them… The hare has gone, and the dogs are chasing after it, and you know what – who ever heard of a ‘nation’ that did not have any citizens? Or who were citizens only of another entity, and not of their own nation? For the UK to consist of four nations, the nationals of each of the component nations must have the right to be citizens of their nation. Hence, the UK will consist of Scottish citizens (citizens of Scotland), Welsh citizens (citizens of Wales), Northern Irish citizens (citizens of Northern Ireland) and English citizens (citizens of England).

      There you have it – paradoxically, I have done the modern Unionists’ job for them. They say they want a new UK, which they call a ‘new Act of Union’, as if such a thing were possible; it clearly isn’t, unless you abolish history. But what I am suggesting is possible, providing a foundational blueprint for a new UK which stands on the legal and constitutional reality we have inherited, developing it but not abolishing it.

      It also has the advantage that it forces people to choose. They can’t be all these things – English, Welsh, Northern Irish and Scottish – at the same time. If they could, there would be no difference at all between the 4 nations, and no union would be possible between them (for the very notion of a union requires at least two different entities to exist, for them to be able to unite with each other).

      Everyone from these four nations will be in the UK, with various rights and responsibilities that devolve therefrom. To that extent they will be citizens of the UK, while still retaining the specificity of being citizens of whichever one of the four nations they belong to, or opt for.

      This also clears up the obvious ambiguity between the UK and England which currently causes so much confusion, with the consequence that the whole concept of the UK becomes a mass of contradictions, resulting in a morass of internally inconsistent and irreconcilable attitudes and positions.

      The UK is NOT England, and the two terms are NOT interchangeable.

      Likewise with Britain, which is a geographical and not a political concept. As is also true of the terms ‘Britain’, ‘Great Britain’ and the ‘British Isles’. All these terms are simply geographical. None of them are synonymous with the ‘UK’, which is a purely political idea.

      The term ‘nation’ is a political concept as well, but insofar as nations are identified with the land they occupy, it is also a territorial and therefore a geographical concept. Wales is the land of the Welsh, England the land of the English and Scotland the land of the Scots.

      Northern Ireland, of course, has its own well-known peculiarities. These make it difficult to continue the mantra (which remains self-evident for England, Scotland and Wales) without a host of qualifications, so we will leave it at that!

      These Northern Irish peculiarities, and the difficulties arising from them, also expose some of the weakness and historical and legal falsity of the ‘4 nations’ hare which our Unionist friends are running. However, they ran it, and imposed it all over our media, so we’ll just leave it to them to huff and puff and try to catch it, though they never will.

      Once you let the genie out the bottle, you can never stuff it back in. ‘Jins’ (genies) are spiritual things (‘spirits’, literally); so, they tend to have a life of their own which our material reality can never quite capture. Especially when you release them into the (political) atmosphere, as our Unionist friends have done.

      Nations can’t exist without having citizens. If there are four nations in a union called the UK, then there must be 4 distinct citizenships within that UK. In present circumstances, anyone with one of these 4 citizenships rightfully claims a UK passport and thus citizenship of the UK as well.

      Of course, since Unions are voluntary, any one of the 4 nations currently in the Union could decide to leave that union and set up on its own, as a fully independent country, doing so by means and procedures which accord with international law.

      So… what’s not to like about it? If Boris and Co are the dogs that released the hare thinking they could manipulate and thus control it, it is not going to be our fault when the hare outruns them all! And flashes past the winning post while leaving all of them panting in him behind.

      Any time I went to the dogs, the real winner – first past the post, with the lights flashing – was always the hare. Never the dogs. So… so be it.

    117. Ruby says:

      The two Daves the ‘Misogynistic Abusive Bully’ and the ‘Mental Paranoid English Missionary’ don’t have post of load of repeats. SSDD!

      Another question for the ‘Mental Paranoid English Missionary’ who claims he is here to educate us.

      I don’t expect anything approaching a ‘sensible’ answer but just for shits & giggles I’ll give it ago.

      “What are the goals/aims of the ‘English’ voter.

    118. Ruby says:

      Where does ‘Dave the Misogynistic Abusive Bully’ get his information about me and how I voted?

      I think ‘Dave the Misogynistic Abusive Bully’ might be as ‘off his trolley’ as ‘Dave the Mental Paranoid English Missionary”

      I’m pretty sure there are plenty ‘sensible’ Daves out there but these two ain’t it!

    119. Ruby says:

      wull says:

      Your post is utterly brilliant.
      Thank you for that.

      I might eventually get my answer re definition of ‘English’ but not from “Dave the Mental Paranoid English Missionary” but from Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson spoken in his ‘English’ accent or perhaps Michael Andrew Gove with his ‘Scottish’ accent will get the job.

    120. wull says:

      Or, to change the metaphor and put it another way, those who love throwing their home-made bombs into the independence debate, in order to prevent independence and get the results they want, are likely to end up hoist by there own petard.

      Hoist, that is, on their own joist.

      The (artificial) joist they put up to support their flimsy building might just be the very thing to bring the whole shaky construction come tumbling down around them. A Union supported by fake joists is not going to last for long.

      (I am emphatically NOT an engineer, but others more equipped than me who often post on this site can comment on that one, if they wish! Maybe the Captain will advise us on how to bolster his Union in order to prevent it from crashing to the ground or, indeed, sinking into it?)

      Under present circumstances, those on the new register would be Scottish citizens of the UK. But then, as citizens of Scotland, Scots would always be able to exercise their collective sovereignty.

      That sovereignty inheres within us, the people of Scotland, anyway, and it always has. It cannot in fact be lost or legally usurped, or made to magically disappear. However, many obstacles currently stand in our way of effectively exercising it, and they are used against us. Scottish citizenship, which many of us have always wanted, will go a long way towards overcoming these obstacles.

      With citizenship of Scotland established on clearly defined principles, and all Scots clearly registered as such, no one will ever again be able to stop the sovereign people from exercising and using their sovereignty. Well, no doubt, there will be those who still try to do so – but they won’t ever again succeed in the way that they have so often done in the past, and are still currently doing…

      Who is a Scot? is a real question. And it needs a real, reasoned, properly thought through response, above all from Scots themselves. Not some faked-up answer written by a political chancer, on the back of the modern equivalent of a fag packet, deluding himself that his supposedly clever spur-of-the-moment excuse for a thought will get him whatever he wants by keeping Scotland down.

      We have had enough of that kind of stuff. And even though the ‘4 Nations Union idea’ of our Unionist pals is just such a faked-up excuse-for-a-thought, why not turn it on its head? Why not use it, as described in my previous post, as a means to bring all the issues back to the legal, political, historical and constitutional realities that are actually at stake here? Since our friends are insisting on it, why not use it to get all the mileage out of it that we can? Why not let their hare run, these dogs (!), especially insofar as it can help us get the real agenda over the line first?

    121. Ruby says:

      wull says:

      Maybe the Captain will advise us on how to bolster his Union in order to prevent it from crashing to the ground or, indeed, sinking into it?)

      Reply

      That is a really unfair question for the Captain.

      “Dave the Mental Paranoid English Missionary” who is here to educate us might have an answer. 🙂

    122. Mist001 says:

      “The choice at the Holyrood election was either voting for a Scottish Party or a British Party.”

      Is there any difference nowadays?

    123. Ruby says:

      “Dave The Misogynistic Abusive Bully”
      posted the following:

      So you, and numpties like you, are to blame for the continuation of the SNP government and all that they stand for, including keeping us in this stinkin Union with England.

      Well done there Ruby and Co.

      Reply

      This guy believes that voting Labour would have meant immediate IndyRef2 and that everyone who voted SNP is a numpty.

      He also imagines he knows how I voted.

      I wonder which of the Daves is ‘the maddest frog in the box’.

    124. Mist001 says:

      In a city, it’s said that you’re never more than 6 feet away from a rat.

      On these blog comments, you’re never more than 6 replies away from a Dave.

      Have a look if you don’t believe me.

    125. Sensible Dave says:

      Hi Rubes

      I can see that you are still desperate for my attention.

      You need to understand that I have many folk hanging on my every word – and demanding ever more of my time and focus. You wont have experienced this, but having people demanding your thoughts and views on everything, is a big responsibility and is a heavy burden to bear.

      I have to share myself around and speak to folk in their many different places and environments and help them with all sorts of issues.

      I’ve answered all of your relevant questions at least once – you need to move on now and try to get over me.

      Its becoming unseemly and a bit embarrassing to witness your public, ever increasing pining and hankering, for me to engage with you.

    126. Sensible Dave says:

      Mist001

      😉

    127. Ruby says:

      Mist001 says:
      2 July, 2021 at 2:21 pm
      “The choice at the Holyrood election was either voting for a Scottish Party or a British Party.”

      Is there any difference nowadays?

      Reply

      Nowadays & before the last Holyrood election the majority of Scottish voters believed there was however during the course of this parliament if the SNP fail to produce the goods they may change their mind although I can’t see them voting for a British Unionist Party. Any inaction by the SNP vis a vis Independence will mean a huge boost for the Alba Party at the next H.E. when they will hopefully be standing constituency candidates with another independence party standing list candidate.

      How about you having a go at answering the question?

    128. Ruby says:

      Sensible Dave says:
      2 July, 2021 at 2:31 pm
      Mist001

      😉

      Reply

      Oh la la!
      Mist getting big winks from DTMPEM!!!

      Is Mist001 another member of “Dave the Mental Paranoid English Missionary’s” gang?

    129. Mist001 says:

      No, I’m not a part of anyones gang. My post was originally going to be ‘On the internet’ but I changed it to keep it relevant to this blog.

    130. Ruby says:

      Mist001 says:
      2 July, 2021 at 2:48 pm
      No, I’m not a part of anyones gang.

      Reply

      It look as if “Dave the Mental Paranoid English Missionary”

      is trying to groom you!

    131. Sensible Dave says:

      Wull 1.18

      You wrote “This, in turn, would lead to many English people claiming their right to be recognised as English citizens of the UK. With the rise in English nationalism, it is natural that most English people would want this.”

      I admire your writing and your argument. However, together with many other folk here, you ignore that which is in front of your face.

      The only reason that Scotland is not now an Independent country – is because the majority of Scottish voters voted against the proposition in the referendum. To paraphrase, the People of Scotland spoke and made it clear that they would not be dragged out of the Union against their will.

      Implicitly, your comments could be read as suggesting that the only way to achieve Scottish independence is to have it forced upon you by the English as “a result of a rise of English nationalism”.

      However, unless and until a majority of Scottish voters vote for independence in an another referendum, the English would never force Independence upon the minority (however much we might wish it sometimes).

      Its not the way we do things in England sir.

      So, forget about English nationalism and focus on putting forward an attractive, honest and inspiring case for Independence. Nothing else will work or be valid.

    132. John Main says:

      Breeks

      Thanks for your response.

      I guess there is sport, and then there is real life. Some people would like them to be the same thing, some people even believe they are the same thing.

      I don’t.

      “Scotland’s enemies WILL seek to portray our Nation’s self defence as bigoted tribal prejudice”

      Maybes. Can’t see why that should get in our way though. Maybes countries should be just a little like people in this respect – the best revenge on your enemies is to live well.

    133. Robert Graham says:

      Judging by some of the crabbit tetchy comments and the pointless personal remarks our Princess has completed her task she and her inner circle with the assistance of the English establishment she has sickened people into submission and left most people without any choice who in all honesty who would want the current leadership of the SNP to chart a course for a better Scotland for the benefit of the people who have lived here all their lives and who could trace their family back hundreds of years Scots born in Scotland voted to end this Union with England , Fact ,
      Every time we vote in a general election we get a English government , a English government that is based in England , a parliament that’s based in England , our TV channels show English content our papers are owned by people outside this country , our major institutions are headed by English born people ,
      And this is acceptable ? I don’t fkn think so Scots are being absorbed into the greater England and what does that fkn Princess Sturgeon do ? fk all she’s doing exactly as she is told , Queens according to the English broadcasting corporation could be in the Scottish Government who voted for them to be in our government who voted for hairy guys who pretend they are they are Women just to get access to Women only spaces I bet Woman who voted SNP didn’t realise Princess Sturgeon was begging these Trans and lbgtxxeonl+ nutters to stay , what a fkd up country we are now living in it gives you the boak just thinking about it .

    134. Republicofscotland says:

      Well ladies and gentlemen, quod erat demonstrandum, as they say, I rest my case, a case that I put forward yesterday, as did Alasdair Gray almost a decade ago that, if you question the creeping colonisation of Scotland by folk from England, you end up being insulted and called all manner of names, as has become accustom in many cases when you question Israeli action against the Palestinian people for more than seventy-years, one has to wonder is there a correlation between the two.

      Of course we lost the 2014 indyref, not because Scots voted no, no we lost due to mainly folk from other parts of the UK, residing in Scotland voting no. This statement of fact will probably be read by some as anti-something or other, and translated into petty insults as in above.

    135. Republicofscotland says:

      “Every time we vote in a general election we get a English government , a English government that is based in England , a parliament that’s based in England , our TV channels show English content our papers are owned by people outside this country , our major institutions are headed by English born people”

      Robert Graham.

      Careful there Robert, you may end up getting a mouthful as I did from a commentor above for stating the bleedin obvious.

    136. Republicofscotland says:

      “The only reason that Scotland is not now an Independent country – is because the majority of Scottish voters voted against the proposition in the referendum. To paraphrase, the People of Scotland spoke and made it clear that they would not be dragged out of the Union against their will.”

      Dave @2.58pm.

      Dave, how long have you been noising for up on the website, it must be years I think, yet you haven’t bothered your backside to do your homework as usual.

      Scottish voters didn’t in their majority didn’t vote no in 2014, they voted yes, it was folk from the rest of the UK that swung it for no.

      https://archive.is/izlrV

      Dave I don’t even know why I’m replying to this mince, I can’t even take you seriously, and I’m sure many other commentors in here feel the same.

    137. Republicofscotland says:

      Meanwhile as the (OSR) the Office for Statistics Regulation pulls up Johnson for spinning the amount of kids in poverty in the UK, there’s far more than Johnson’s lying figures show.

      We have Sturgeon the Betrayer play populist politics by calling for the removal of the Windrush Scheme at Westminster. Sturgeon’s clique at Westminster, have no power no say and no real influence on the Home Office and they know it.

      Its basically a points scoring exercise, to thrall the masses in Scotland to Sturgeon’s camp. Meanwhile Brexit continues to do untold damage in Scotland, not to mention the Aussie trade deal that will devastate the Scottish farming industry, and of course the Internal Market Act will be a crushing blow into the bargain.

      All of the heartache and coming pain could’ve been avoided had the Betrayer held an indyref in 2016 and beyond, but she didn’t she betrayed Scots for the union.

    138. Sensible Dave says:

      Robert Graham 3.33

      Now I’m not a medical professional … but my spidey senses are detecting dangerous levels of stress.

      Pack up your stuff, get in the motor, drive down here and we can have a game of croquet and high tea? You’ll enjoy the warmer climate whilst also chillin’ (if you see what I mean).

    139. Mist001 says:

      I offered a different perspective on the 2014 independence referendum result.

      In 2016, the Scottish people voted an emphatic YES to remaining as part of the EU.

      In 2014, voters were told that by voting yes for independence, it would mean leaving the EU.

      So perhaps in 2014, voters didn’t vote no to independence, rather they voted no to ensure they were still a part of the EU.

      Things have changed now though, so I’d be interested to see if my point is still valid, but that would take another independence referendum and as most of us know, that’s not likely to be happening anytime soon.

    140. Sensible Dave says:

      RoS 3.51

      My apologies RoS.

      Instead of using a handy phrase like “scottish voters” I should have said people that are entitled to vote in the referendum in Scotland – according to a commenter posting under the name Republicofscotland.

      My bad.

      Perhaps when Wings has agreed what “scottish” means we can all communicate much better.

      Just to get you all working together, could all those that agree with RoS on the absolute definition of what Scottish means (excluding you Ruby), say Aye!

    141. Clavie Cheil says:

      Sinister Dave is obviously one of Sturgeons/ Murrels Cucky Troll boys. An obvious chick with a dick. I think he would be happier in Thailand.

    142. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Hard to disagree with a single word of this statement.

      https://indyposterboy.scot/statement/

    143. Ruby says:

      People from the RUK with holiday homes in Scotland are only part-time ‘Scottish voters’ the rest of the time they are ‘English voters’ possibly Welsh or N.Irish voters.

      It’s fair to say voters from the RUK swung it for NO.

      On top of that ‘voters from the RUK’ played a major part & spent oodles of taxpayers money campaigning for NO.

      The question that has been asked many times but remains unanswered is:

      Why? What are the advantage for people in the RUK especially the ‘English voter’ of having Scotland in their Union?

      https://tinyurl.com/3r7zxwbh

      Obviously these ‘English voters’ didn’t think there was any which is more understandable than those promoting a NO vote when they believe Scotland is an economic basket case which needs their hard earned cash to be able to survive.

    144. Robert Graham says:

      I notice the con artist who is masquerading as a Independence supporter on La La Land is still pushing the fairytale about the current SNP crop of Liars wanting a Independent Scotland aye the old ones are the best ones same shit different day .

      The latest load of crap is Oh look what that English government are doing now Yada yada while totally missing the point , they are only doing exactly what they want because there is no fight in this SNP no resistance no fkn bottle and no hope of anything close to there being a Indyref2 in our lifetime while that fkr Sturgeon is in charge

      Wakey Wakey La La people it ain’t fkn happening under her leadership are you people that fkn stupid can’t you see you have been had and fooled big time you might as well all go and do something that actually makes sense like flower arranging or Knitting or even have a conversation with a tree or a nice plant .because that’s about your level of intelligence .

    145. twathater says:

      @ Ian B 4.55pm and just like indy poster boy many more will become tired, frustrated and disillusioned and that doesn’t even include the ones who will pass away , there is NO DOUBT the SNP under Sturgeon has and is SABOTAGING Scotland’s independence she is a trai tor and by their silence and inaction the rest of the SNP cohort are identified the same

      The only thing to rally the independence troops would be Alex Salmond’s court cases which he alluded to which would EXPOSE Sturgeon’s fingerprints all over the corruption and would show the lies promoted by the various actors

      Failing that there would have to be either a mass demonstration by AOUB to the SP and Bute House

    146. Dan says:

      Aye, Colin Dunn aka Indyposterboy / Zarkwan has put in an epic shift producing an amazing array of info-graphics to help Yes folk and groups campaign with.

      Compare his archives of material to the likes of this account that hasn’t tweeted in 4 months, and you maybe begin to understand him taking a break…

      https://twitter.com/thesnpmedia

    147. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      “Hard to disagree with a single word of this statement.”

      Aye @ Ian Brotherhood says at 4:55 pm I fully agree.

      Grassroots ignored, ridiculed and squandered.

      Hopefully only a hiatus as his stuff is great.

    148. Ian Brotherhood says:

      On a more positive note, a pal sent me a picture of Greenock Town Hall earlier today.

      It is *huge*!

      If Alba attendees exceed the 700 Alex Salmond and his team have provisionally booked for (bug restrictions permitting, naturally) then there’s clearly plenty of room for more. Now’s mibbe the time to think about organising wee ‘break-out’ groups or fringe meetings.

      😉

    149. Ruby says:

      twathater says:

      The only thing to rally the independence troops would be Alex Salmond’s court cases which he alluded to which would EXPOSE Sturgeon’s fingerprints all over the corruption and would show the lies promoted by the various actors

      Reply

      Would that not very much depend on how these court cases were portrayer by the MSM?

      All their attention could be focused on Leslie Evans & Lis Lloyd who by the time of court cases may not be part of the SG with She/Her claiming to have fired them.

      I think it’s time for the YES movement to be more active than they every have been. I recognise that it would easy to be despondent but I think it’s time be strong.

      Even if it’s just:

      “To dream the impossible dream
      To fight the unbeatable foe
      To bear with unbearable sorrow
      To run where the brave dare not go
      To right the un-rightable wrong
      To love pure and chaste from afar
      To try when your arms are too weary
      To reach the unreachable star
      This is my quest,
      To follow that star
      No matter how hopeless,
      No matter how far.
      To fight for the right
      Without question or pause,
      To be willing to march
      Into hell for the independence cause.
      And I know if I’ll only be true
      To this glorious quest
      That my heart will lie peaceful and calm
      When I’m laid to my rest
      And the world will be better for this
      And one man, sore and covered with scars
      Still strove with his last ounce of courage
      To fight the unbeatable foe
      To reach the unreachable star”

    150. Southernbystander says:

      Interesting but pretty weird conversation about what an English accent is and what being anti-English is.

      1) Just like Scotland, there are many types of English accent but every native of these islands can distinguish almost all of them from a Scottish one, and vice versa. It matters not if it is posh English or broad Brummie, Orcadian or Lowland (or indeed posh Scot). I am no linguist so cannot talk about the technical why but I don’t see why that matters. Of course quite a few Scots have English accents but not many the other way round. Despite that, most people with English accents are English. To someone outwith the UK, both English and Scottish accents have enough similarities to be called ‘British’ and can be mostly indistinguishable to an unaccustomed ear (shock horror!).

      2) Anti-English is someone who doesn’t like a person simply because they are English regardless of anything else. But it may be a mistake if they feel that way about an English accented Scot but don’t know they are Scottish. That becomes an interesting conundrum. I have a Scottish friend who has experienced this bigotry in Scotland despite being Scottish and living their all his life. It sometimes feels you cannot really be Scottish if you have an English accent. I have another friend who was brought up in Motherwell and has a Scottish mother and English father (he came up from England as young child). He had a terrible time at school because initially he had an English accent, though that changed over time, and so very much identified with his English side and moved south as soon a he could. So you now have a half Scottish raving anti-Scot with a Scottish accent. Mad, especially as I don’t know anyone else personally in England who is anti-Scottish.

      Sorry if this is all a bit obvious but the question was asked by Ruby.

      Oh and finally re Corbyn / Johnson and England. I voted for Corbyn and would never vote for the Tories, let alone a complete tosser like Johnson so Sensible Dave is talking shite about ‘England voting’ as if he talks for us all. And in 2017 Corbyn ran May very close. Sensible Dave is a Tory. If he weren’t he wouldn’t have voted for them in 2019 (especially with the archest of privileged Tories in charge), as he could have voted other than Labour or abstained. I don’t know his background but many newer working class Tory voters still don’t actually like being called a Tory even though they vote for them, repeatedly. Class guilt lurking there I suspect.

      But, if I gleaned an earlier post correctly he will appreciate ‘Come on You Irons’. West Ham won it in ’66.

    151. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Watching the Switzerland – Spain game. The BIG question is…

      Do professional football players still familiarise themselves with the use and purpose of dubbin?

    152. Ruby says:

      Southernbystander says:
      Cheers Southernbystander thanks for answering my question even if you think it’s weird.

      Reply
      1) Just like Scotland, there are many types of English accent but every native of these islands can distinguish almost all of them from a Scottish one, and vice versa.

      That is highly debatable and would depend on what you mean by natives of these islands.

      “Of course quite a few Scots have English accents but not many the other way round.”

      Did you read the initial post? It matters because people with an ‘English’ accent may not be English. So that an increase in ‘English’ accents in Scotland may not mean an increase of people from South of the border.

      “To someone outwith the UK, both English and Scottish accents have enough similarities to be called ‘British’ and can be mostly indistinguishable to an unaccustomed ear (shock horror!).

      What has that got to do with anything? Only if the person is an English speaker and watches a lot of British telly and even then if could be very tricky to distinguish between a Irish accent from a N.Irish accent. Not too sure if an American could spot the difference between British from a Dutchman, Norwegian Australian South African or a Brit with an Indian accent from an Indian.

      I have been asked by persons outwith the UK if I was Italian.

      2) Anti-English is someone who doesn’t like a person simply because they are English regardless of anything else

      How would you know if someone is English?

      “most people with English accents are English”

      That is debatable and would depend on what you mean by English.

      I very high % of non-white people living in England do not consider themselves English but British.

      The ‘English’ poster on Wings always seem to be a tad arrogant. That could be the root cause of any so called anti-Englishness.

      Why on earth would you think the rest of world would recognise a British accent when there are people in the UK who don’t know the difference between Spanish & Portuguese, Polish & German, Italian & Spanish, Dutch & German.

      Although I can tell the difference between all of the above I cannot tell the difference between an American & a Canadian accent nor a New Zealand & Australian accent.

    153. Fishy Wullie says:

      Hi guys
      I’m looking for a bit of help again

      I’m trying to find a video clip of Alistair Darling being sworn into the lords, I’m sure I remember seeing it but I cant find it anywhere now in fact I can only find one single low res image in his lordly robe

      if anyone can point me to that video or a decent image it would be much appreciated

    154. Fishy Wullie says:

      Forget my last post I got it although the picture quality isn’t great it should be good enough, I only need a few seconds

      Thanks

    155. Ruby says:

      Southernbystander says:

      But it may be a mistake if they feel that way about an English accented Scot but don’t know they are Scottish.

      Reply
      It could well be this so called ‘Anti-Englishness’ has absolutely nothing to do with whether the person is ‘English’ or ‘Scottish’ and more to do with them being arrogant/posh probably similar to the way you feel about Tories.

    156. Southernbystander says:

      Ruby (7:47PM),

      You make the point for me about people from other countries not being able to distinguish between Scottish and English accents. It was just an observation.

      And yes I did read your post about Scots with English accents which is why I mentioned it – just repeating you really. I have no idea if that is anything to do with the apparent increase in English accents in Scotland (is this even true?) but I am struggling to see why that would be the case more than English people moving to Scotland. But I don’t live in Scotland to am just guessing. Independence but in the EU would bring more of us, of that you can be sure.

      You make a good point about non-white people in England and whether they regard themselves as English (or are accepted as such, though they do speak with English accents). But I really do think this is changing and more and more it is the case. Very many of those people now support England football team, for example, and even the cricket team due to the make up of the teams themselves. And for the whites, there is a slow acceptance that they are English as what English is moves from being an ethnicity to a cultural thing that is also evolving massively e.g. grime music is very much ‘English’). Maybe the seeming demise of Britain is hastening this. I hope so anyway, it needs to happen. But it also begs the same question for Scotland. Are ‘English’ and ‘Scottish’ ethnicities? If so you cannot be a black Scotsman or Englishman. I would profoundly disagree.

      I recognise the type Sensible Dave is i.e. a wind-up merchant who likes to lay the arrogant Englishman stereotype on thick (though he does make the odd good point).

    157. Southernbystander says:

      Ruby your later point about posh people, yes, maybe, and that is very much a class thing then. I like nearly all Scottish accents but struggle with what I call posh Scots – it grates. But I sometimes think that is my own prejudice.

    158. Ruby says:

      Southernbystander says:

      many newer working class Tory voters still don’t actually like being called a Tory even though they vote for them, repeatedly. Class guilt lurking there I suspect.

      Reply

      They have something in common with Tory politicians in Scotland.
      They don’t like to be called Tories.

      You will never see a mention of Tory on their campaign leaflets and they banned Boris from campaigning in Scotland.

      In the previous HE they called themselves ‘The Ruth Davidson Party’

    159. Ruby says:

      Southernbystander says

      Independence but in the EU would bring more of us, of that you can be sure.

      Reply

      Good for you. I expect that is a view shared by many.

      I like to hear what people in England have to say regarding their political views and experiences but not if it’s some patronising lecture about how useless Scotland is and how we could never survive with their help.

      Do you have any views on the English Democrats & whether or not England should have their own devolved parliament?

    160. Southernbystander says:

      Ruby, there is a very strong logic for an English devolved parliament because the set up now is bizarre really. And there is a bit of traction for it in England, but not much because it all seems quite complex. There is also deep suspicion of more politicians, beaurocracy etc. Another reason why more devolution in England generally never really gets very far.

      I see the whole set up of the UK as a mess. The case for an independent Scotland is massive to me for the simple reason Westminster no longer represents Scotland. It’s an untenable situation. But I’m not a nationalist, mainly because English nationalism is mostly horrible. If I were in Scotland I would be in the odd position of supporting independence (in theory – like many here I find the SNPs social agenda appalling) but not as a nationalist.

      The trouble for people in England regarding the question of Scottish independence is that, apart from voting at a GE, so only indirectly, we have no say in it and the SNP never speak for us. So we feel remote / irrelevant. This leads to a shoulder shrug much of the time. I think most people support the right for Scotland to decide (again) in fact, if only for it it to be decided!

      So to answer your question, a devolved English parliament now seems moot until the Union is either secured or dissolved (or more likely reduced). I sometimes wonder that given the impasse, some kind of federal set up might be the answer, though I get that will get no traction here.

    161. Breeks says:

      Southernbystander says:
      2 July, 2021 at 8:29 pm

      …. I like nearly all Scottish accents but struggle with what I call posh Scots – it grates. But I sometimes think that is my own prejudice.

      Maybe not. It might just be Fraser Nelson you’re hearing. 😉

    162. Southernbystander says:

      I looked Fraser Nelson up and then knew who you meant Breeks and yes, that’s the sort of accent. I notice though he was born in Truro (but brought up in Scotland). I wonder what his heritage actually is?

    163. Tackety Beets says:

      My understanding, Fizer Nelson’s dad was in RAF based at Kinloss & they lived in Nairn.

      Anyone able to confirm?

    164. J.o.e says:

      ‘mainly because English nationalism is mostly horrible’

      You mean mainstream media representation of it is mostly horrible.

    165. Ruby says:

      https://archive.is/kM5YL

      ‘Posh Scottish people are really English’ — why Kelly Macdonald is not alone in judging people by their accents

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p06fs9wz

      Very interesting.

    166. Beaker says:

      Just popped in for a look, and there are 666 comments.

      Sheeeeeeeeeeeet!!

    167. David Caledonia says:

      The Naive Clown lol

      Happy independence day to all my friends in seattle, even though its become a shithole

    168. Clavie Cheil says:

      Ian Brotherhood says:
      2 July, 2021 at 4:55 pm

      Hard to disagree with a single word of this statement.

      https://indyposterboy.scot/statement/
      ==========================================================

      The generation of my family that signed that Covenant have all passed away regrettably or emigrated to Canada, USA, Australia and NZ. To be replaced by White Settlers hostile to any kind of Devolution, Home Rule let alone Scottish Independence.

    169. J.o.e says:

      R.E indieposterboy statement

      I agree entirely with what is said. The analysis of why we are where we are falls short though.

      The idea that we wait for the right political candidates to put the ‘should’ and ‘could’ into effect for the Scots is exactly the root of the problem. Not the SNP itself. Just as cancer will not be the root of your problem but rather it is one of your habits, or an exposure to something toxic etc.

      The idea that Scots will gain political autonomy while only using a system of politics that we know is open to extreme manipulation because it ‘should’ happen is naive beyond belief. That the British state will simply give itself away based on the democratic will of a few million Scots…I don’t really have the words.

      We are where we are because the Scottish independence movement isn’t actually a full nationalist movement (that would be distasteful, you know). It is a weak, toothless political lobbying group that functions as a black hole where Scots empty their passion and energy into for it to be turned into nothing tangible in return. The way the Scots are looking at this is the actual hamster wheel.

      Consider what the future looks like for Scots if we focus on gaining political autonomy as the only answer to our problems. We may never get it and we will be eroded as a nation over the years while we bury our heads in the sand and cross our fingers every election like someone with no job hoping for the lottery every week.

      However if we look to strengthening ourselves and our communities and our fellow Scots in business and the legal world we can start to get tangible benefits immediately, benefits that will grow and give Scots back something for their work, help protect us and actually nurture us as a people.

      We need to be looking after our people properly and in every aspect of life we can manage so that we are not solely dependent on what the powers that be allow us through a sham system of politics.

      This will require a stronger in-group preference and a more hardened actual nationalist spirit than we currently have.

    170. Breeks says:

      twathater says:
      2 July, 2021 at 5:31 pm
      @ Ian B 4.55pm and just like indy poster boy many more will become tired….

      The only thing to rally the independence troops would be Alex Salmond’s court cases which he alluded to which would EXPOSE Sturgeon’s fingerprints all over the corruption and would show the lies promoted by the various actors

      Failing that there would have to be either a mass demonstration by AOUB to the SP and Bute House

      I honestly don’t know what it would take to bring the SNP to it’s senses. I don’t know what would physically constitute a big enough slap in the face, but if I could deliver it, I would.

      I’m not talking about the treacherous charlatans in charge of Scotland’s Vichy “Government”, hell mend them. Let them write their own epitaph. I’m talking about the mini-rats, the anti-ALBA rodents and cretins, and those who stand by in sullen agreement when yet another Indy voice is fighting for it’s life in a Scottish Court, more often than not, at the behest of some SNP turncoat or shit stirrer.

      There is nothing new under the sun.

      I get where Colin, IndyPosterBoy, is coming from with the 1951 Covenant. But while my heart breaks a little for every Scottish patriot who runs out of time here without seeing Scotland liberated. But I wasn’t born in 1951. For all those we lose, we have to put our trust that there is also ongoing renewal.

      The we Scots should feel dispirited and let down by our “Leadership”, is nothing new. When you read the Declaration of Arbroath, …”… for, as long as a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be subjected to the lordship of the English. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.”

      I cannot add anything to those fine, fine words and noble sentiment, but I could dwell for hours upon why “ordinary” Scotland felt it was important to include these words, and indeed the bare bones principle of popular Sovereignty, into the Declaration.

      How does that feel Sturgeon? 700 years ago, the people of Scotland were already anticipating that Scotland would need protection from backstabbing treacherous charlatans. They knew you were coming.

      The bottom line is, for the best part of 1000 years, I don’t think Scotland has known what it’s like to have Leadership that can fully be trusted, and has grown indifferent to scandal and absolute betrayal.

      Scotland is the brow-beaten wife resigned to her prison in an abusive marriage. She nearly got to her feet and walked out between 2014 and 2016, but now, I fear she has sat herself down again, and is braced and ready for another verbal onslaught and character assassination. She takes comfort of sorts from knowing she can endure those.

      So sad, that Lady Scotland’s courage has been undermined right at the last, undone by the irony that the sell-out and two faced hypocrisy comes from a self promoting “feminist” who hasn’t even the backbone or integrity to get that right.

      For the poignant ceremony of it, Sturgeon’s name should be added to the Ragman Rolls, and her lousy “Government” impeached for it’s breach of Scotland’s sovereign Constitution. It is my considered belief, that our Scottish ancestors who fought and died for Scotland, the two million people who signed the 1951 Scottish Covenant, and the original signatories of the Declaration of Arbroath would nod in approval for their Declaration to be used in such a way.

    171. Confused says:

      Colin Dunn’s infographic work was superb; imagine if the SNP had got behind him and the REV with the Blue Book?

      – this is what happens; all the good people leave and you get a nest of wankers left over, the scum in the bottom of the glass …

      you see a fat man with a nappy fetish, telling you his pronouns and you think :

      – I am sure he has developed viable economic models for indy Scotland AND has ground-breakingly innovative solutions to the currency question

      probly not, he just wants to shit his pants and have his “Daddy” wipe his bottom …

      These people, most of them, have -at least- a narcissistic personality disorder (along with various sexual “paraphilias”/perversions) this means they are simply not equipped mentally to stop, or moderate, or even just “turn it down a bit” when it comes to their behaviour. They have no internal brake, so when you empower them, you get a “runaway train” of worsening behaviour.

      Trannies, we need to start being clear, are simply monsters; they combine the worst stereotypical aspects of masculinity (violence, aggression) and femininity (emotionality, hysteria, bad decision making) within themselves, but for real. The old greybeards who wrote the Bible weren’t always fullofshit

    172. Saffron Robe says:

      Scotland will never flourish under the Union because the purpose of the Union is to prevent Scotland from flourishing. All Westminster policy towards Scotland can be understood in this light. All political action in Scotland must be directed towards ending the Union as a matter of urgency, and failure to do so is both a capitulation and a dereliction of duty. As Breeks mentions in his very eloquent comment above, Nicola Sturgeon and her cabal of gender-bending zealots should be facing impeachment under Scots Law. It is no coincidence that Scots Law is under as much attack from the SNP as it is from Westminster.

      It’s not just that Nicola Sturgeon is totally incompetent – she’s an utter embarrassment. In the photo that heads this post by Stuart the caption should read, “Calm down, I’m not the Messiah, I’m just a very duplicitous person”.

    173. Pixywine says:

      BDTT. I’m not sure about Hatuey but I enjoyed your Magazine link.

    174. twathater says:

      A very rousing comment Breeks if only we could get people to open their eyes to ALL the duplicitous, lying, corrupt politicians who promise the world and deliver NOTHING , you would think we Scots would be more astute and aware of lying con artists after the many years of liebour in charge of Scotland

      I WAS born in January 1951 and would dearly love the resurgence of the COVENANT to gain traction, I know there is one available online as I have tried numerous times to access it to no avail and there is no way to contact them to correct any mistakes , in the past when it was highlighted on here you had people refusing to sign it because they weren’t happy with the data protection aspect

    175. Ruby says:

      Grouse Beater says:
      4 July, 2021 at 10:49 am
      Another fine paper from Professor Alfred Baird, this one on ‘Language’.

      Your essential weekend reading:

      ‘Scotland in the 21st Century – Language’: https://wp.me/p4fd9j-q4U

      Reply
      Very interesting article.
      I get the impression posters on Wings wont be very interested.

      I posted the following on a previous thread mainly in response to ‘Southernbystander’ and a follow up to my question to ‘Sinister Dave’ re definition of anti-English.

      Ruby says:
      3 July, 2021 at 12:12 am
      https://archive.is/kM5YL

      ‘Posh Scottish people are really English’ — why Kelly Macdonald is not alone in judging people by their accents

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p06fs9wz

      The title of the broadcast is
      ‘Could the PM Have a Brummie Accent?’
      could equally be
      ‘Could the PM Have a Ayrshire Accent?

      John Main says:
      3 July, 2021 at 10:36 am
      Oh, almost forgot. The most recent thread was attempting to split the binary identification Scottish-English into something like 100 sub-categories depending on birthplace, residency, accent, tax domicile, property ownership, supported teams, voting preferences, etc. Every time I read one of those posts, I could feel the surge in support for Indy lifting me skywards as hundreds of other readers were converted to the cause.

      Ruby says:
      3 July, 2021 at 11:05 am
      John Main says:

      Did you listen to this?

      “Could the PM Have a Brummie Accent?”
      https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p06fs9wz

      If you don’t want to listen to it all FF to 47:26 to listen to Alan Brown followed by Emma Lewell-Buck.

      I’m wondering if the folk in Hansard translate ‘Mam’ into Mother or Birthing Person?

      Should our politicians take elocution lessons & learn to speak ‘properly’ before entering the ‘House of Commons’?

      Reply from John Main:
      John Main says:
      3 July, 2021 at 4:30 pm
      Ruby at 11:05 am

      I have no idea what your post is about. Do you?

      Dave Somerville wasn’t happy he felt I made too many posts:

      Dave Somerville says:
      3 July, 2021 at 10:48 am
      Ruby,

      Is it your aim in life to try and exceed the total amount of posts in one day that dear old Cameron B Brodie achieved?

      And is “Reply” really your second name?

    176. Southernbystander says:

      J.o.e says:
      2 July, 2021 at 11:54 pm
      ‘mainly because English nationalism is mostly horrible’

      You mean mainstream media media representation of it is mostly horrible.

      —————

      No, I don’t mean that.

      I have lived in England my whole life and know what English nationalism looks like. Yes, there is a more benign, civic strand but it does not dominate, far from it. In England nationalism is mostly about keeping foreigners out, a belief in English superiority in all things, and as far as I can see, always voting Tory or a party even further to the right. In other words, from my perspective, horrible. Nigel Farage just about sums it up and he is relatively benign compared to some (Tommy ‘Robinson’, For Britain, Britain First etc). The better news is these parties were utterly trounced at the Batley by-election (and the snake Galloway failed too).

      But don’t get me wrong, I am a patriot and love my country, warts and all. Like Orwell I make a significant distinction between being patriotic and nationalistic. Like him I dislike some on the left who like nothing better than saying how crap England is compared to anything from mainland Europe, and little else of any use. I prefer Billy Bragg’s approach – seek to find an inclusive, unifying and open approach to all who live here, one that is not ashamed to celebrate and promote the good side of Englishness but also condemn the bad.

    177. J.o.e says:

      @Southern Bystander

      No doubt there is a large, vocal and ugly side to English nationalism. The kind of Tommy Robinson and some other parties you mention that will fight harder for Israel than it will for England.

      I have however come across a large number of English nationalists whose eloquence, decency and thought provoking perspectives put pretty much the entire ‘decent’ (progressive) side to shame. Including those in Scottish nationalist circles.

      We will never hear from these people however because English nationalism is more dangerous to the British state than Scottish nationalism.

    178. Ruby says:

      I knew nothing about ‘The English Democrats’ until a number of them came to Edinburgh way back when Michael Moore was SOS.

      The were outside ‘The Royal College of Physicians of Edinburgh’ in George Street where they were handing out red roses to passers-by.

      They were waiting for Michael Moore who was due to give a lecture in the Royal College. They said they were waiting for Michael Moore to ask for his help. If I remember correctly they wanted his help to achieve an English Parliament. I thought it was strange that they chose Michael Moore.

      After going home with my red rose I decided to look up ‘The English Democrats’. Everything I read on their website made sense. I couldn’t figure out why they weren’t more popular.

      https://www.englishdemocrats.party/about

      I did learn from the press releases they had posted on their website at that time was they were hated by British Unionist politicians.

      Thanks for your answer ‘Southern Bystander’

      When you don’t live in the country you don’t get a proper feel of what is going on.

    179. Ruby says:

      https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/

      Link to English Democrats blog.

    180. Southernbystander says:

      Ruby, thanks for the links. I have come across the English Democrats but I am not on board. The statement on their website says:

      ‘We campaign for a referendum for Independence for England; for St George’s Day to be England’s National holiday; for Jerusalem to be England’s National Anthem; to leave properly and fully the EU; for an end to uncontrolled mass immigration; for the Cross of St George to be flown on all public buildings in England; and we supported a YES vote for Scottish Independence.’

      I have zero interest in St George. I am a remainer. The bit about ‘uncontrolled immigration’ is right out of the hard right rule book and flying of flags leaves me cold and as a policy statement is a pretty ridiculous priority.

      Basically, they are a right wing / far right party of ex-Tory, ex-UKIP and far right types – one of their biggest successes was a guy called Peter Davies (ex-UKIP – elected Mayor of Doncaster) who subsequently left (in 2013) citing a big influx of new members joining from the BNP (a party on its knees by this point). This is why they are not more popular.

      Hope Not Hate is a great anti-racist campaigning and activist group and I have been following and supporting them for years. I very much doubt they have anything to do with the English Democrats.

    181. Ruby says:

      Southernbystander

      Sorry I maybe got the blog address wrong.

      I was perhaps blinded by the fact that English Democrats supported Scottish independence. I thought their argument for England having it’s own parliament was a good one.

      Isn’t it a bit late in the day to be talking about leaving the EU?

      It must be very hard being a ‘remainer’ in England. At least here in Scotland there is always the hope that we could become independent and return to the EU.
      Although if you have been reading this blog you will know everything has gone a bit pear-shaped vis a vis the fight for independence.

      I don’t have a problem with the Saltire flying. I see it as being a sign of hope. The Union Jack on the other hand is a different matter and when I see the English flag I think racists.

      Boris Johnson standing on a giant England flag was great! 😉

      Could it be there is no place for the English Democrats, UKIP & other right wing parties in England because you’ve got the Tories?

    182. J.o.e says:

      ‘Hope Not Hate is a great anti-racist campaigning and activist group and I have been following and supporting them for years.’

      Hope not hate is an absolutely disgusting organisation of liars and other assorted scum who go out of their way to deliberately slander decent people.

    183. Southernbystander says:

      Ruby, the Tories dominate the right in England and apart from the UKIP blip have the market cornered still. This is one of the reasons they keep getting elected. If you look back at GEs over decades and add Labour and LibDem votes together (and latterly, the Greens) they always have more actual votes than the Tories and UKIP et al combined. And that is even true after the SNP replaced Labour in Scotland (and not including SNP votes in the tally). Left / centre-left in England is fatally split.

      One interesting things about Hope Not Hate is that their key player is ex-BNP who came to his senses. I cannot think of anything worth saying to someone who thinks them ‘disgusting scum’.

    184. J.o.e says:

      Hope not hate are the same brand of progressive activism that took over the SNP.

      They are disgusting lying scum.

    185. J.o.e says:

      One question:

      Is it possible, in your view, to be opposed to mass immigration and not be racist?

    186. Southernbystander says:

      Yes

    187. Ruby says:

      Southernbystander says:
      One interesting things about Hope Not Hate is that their key player is ex-BNP who came to his senses. I cannot think of anything worth saying to someone who thinks them ‘disgusting scum’.

      Reply

      I haven’t paid any attention to J.o.e since he called me ‘a fuckin’ thick twat’

      https://tinyurl.com/fezubbnj

      I did a search for English Democrats and third on the list was ‘English Democrats – HOPE not hate’ I opened it and assumed in my rush that this was all about The English Democrats.

      Sorry about that! I had never heard about ‘Hope Not Hate’ but now I have.

      I was looking for a blog that I read way back which detailed all Unionist’s politicians reactions to the English Democrats. If I remember correctly ‘Little Englanders’ was one of the derogatory terms frequently used.

      I think we are probably looking at the ‘English Democrats’ from a different perspective.

      I’m very focused on their support for Scottish/English independence.

      I have another question for you ‘Southernbystander’ one I frequently ask and seldom get a answer.

      If Scotland is being as is claimed subsidises by England what are the benefits for England of this arrangement.

      Does the pursuit of English independence not make more sense than English taxpayers forking out for Scotland to have free university education, free prescription, free personal care for the elderly etc while taxpayers in England have to pay for these things themselves.

    188. J.o.e says:

      @Southernbystander

      That’s interesting because ive yet to see any Hope not Hate types ever label any criticism of mass immigration as anything other than racism/far right.

      Could you play devils advocate and make an acceptable, in your view, argument against mass immigration?

    189. Southernbystander says:

      Ruby says:
      ‘If Scotland is being as is claimed subsidises by England what are the benefits for England of this arrangement.’

      ———–

      Lots of debate about that obviously but taking it as true for argument’s sake, yes there are those in England who want Scotland out of the Union because the country is seen as a taker, not a giver but those are the sorts of people who are hostile anyway, the ‘good riddance’ types. These are very often those who would identify with English nationalism: England should actively turn its back on our neighbours and get rid of them for good. It goes along with wanting some kind of ethnic drive: ‘England for the English’. The EDL (English Defence League) are a good example of this, a more extreme version of the English Democrats. Their desire for Scottish independence is not benign therefore, it is hostile. I believe them to be a minority by some distance.

      I think most people actually think it is far more complex than trying to draw up a balance sheet, so don’t buy the argument in the first place and to be cheesy about it, do simply think ‘better together’ is right. This does not indicate some great love of the Union either, in a political sense just a more simple gut feeling. I think this is a mistake Scottish nationalists make – they think all people in England who would prefer Scotland not to go independent are raving Unionists, when in fact they totally accept it could end (and don’t really care about ‘the Union’) but would just prefer we stick together (heart over head perhaps).

      So the whole economic argument is irrelevant. The ‘benefits’ as you put it are social, societal – we are like a family sort of thing, and don’t forget this is what people have experienced all their lives and on a very simple human level, we struggle with change. But such people also recognise Scotland can do what it desires and would wish an independent Scotland well. So their view is essentially benign. I think this is probably how most people in England think but I cannot prove it.

    190. Southernbystander says:

      J.o.e says:
      6 July, 2021 at 9:55 am
      @Southernbystander

      ‘Could you play devils advocate and make an acceptable, in your view, argument against mass immigration?’

      ——–

      Leaving aside the subtle pejorative nature of the word ‘mass’ and the question of at what point controlled immigration becomes ‘mass’:

      1) Economic pressure / pressure on services and jobs of increased numbers of people
      2) Social problems caused by localised rapid changes of demographic
      3) And associated with 2), undermining of what some see as ‘native culture’

    191. J.o.e says:

      @Southernbystander

      These points have all been raised and continue to be raised

      The so called argument against them is ‘racism’.

      I know this personally from years of experience and from every exchange I have ever witnessed on the subject.

      Your Hope not Hate are probably one of the worst offenders – totally in line with other hyper progressive groups such as our current SNP.

    192. Southernbystander says:

      Hm, so your question was just a set up, I suspected so. It gets us no further. You see things in black and white. I don’t. No movement is perfect or reflects my beliefs consistently. One has to decide what is more important.

    193. J.o.e says:

      @Southernbystander

      It wasn’t a set up. You just (and quite honestly I might add) found yourself in the position people like me have found themselves in for years.

      There is no arguing against the mass, controlled, demographic altering immigration that is being implemented without the other side resorting to accusations of xenophobia regardless of the effects on our own poor, jobs, services, housing, cultural and societal health.

      It is fantasy to pretend that the other side of this debate ever gets any kind of a fair hearing. It simply does not happen.

      In fact we are open to prosecution, intimidation and discrimination.

    194. Southernbystander says:

      For me, points 1 and 2 are valid and deserve proper scrutiny at the very least. Point 3 much less so because it implies culture is somehow fixed by ‘natives’ whereas in fact it is always changing, and cultural change via immigration can be good, not bad.

      Our personal experiences shape us and our views. I grew up in East London in the 1970s and witnessed first hand the insidious nature of the NF, BNP etc – violence, intimidation, overt racism. It was everywhere for a while where I lived. Though I am white I also suffered personally at their hands as (to them) I looked Jewish (I’m not Jewish). And to make matters worse, the NF began to gain a real electoral foothold in some local areas (though that didn’t last). They had a very deleterious effect on race relations in England regardless what one feels about immigration in general, especially given the people coming here were not blame for their suffering at the hands of these pseudo or self-declared fascists (and there were other even more sinister groups operating and obviously still are). This always makes me sympathetic and supportive of those opposing these kinds of groups as I have seen for real the consequences of them gaining any kind of credence.

      I see this as separate from arguments about the right levels of immigration and do not approve of condemning anyone for simply showing concern about that, as long as they do not base that concern on simply ‘not liking foreigners’ because they are ‘not us’.

    195. Ruby says:

      Southern bystander says:

      Lots of debate about that obviously but taking it as true for argument’s sake, yes there are those in England who want Scotland out of the Union because the country is seen as a taker, not a giver but those are the sorts of people who are hostile anyway, the ‘good riddance’ types. These are very often those who would identify with English nationalism: England should actively turn its back on our neighbours and get rid of them for good.

      It goes along with wanting some kind of ethnic drive: ‘England for the English’. The EDL (English Defence League) are a good example of this, a more extreme version of the English Democrats. Their desire for Scottish independence is not benign therefore, it is hostile. I believe them to be a minority by some distance.

      I think most people actually think it is far more complex than trying to draw up a balance sheet, so don’t buy the argument in the first place and to be cheesy about it, do simply think ‘better together’ is right. This does not indicate some great love of the Union either, in a political sense just a more simple gut feeling. I think this is a mistake Scottish nationalists make – they think all people in England who would prefer Scotland not to go independent are raving Unionists, when in fact they totally accept it could end (and don’t really care about ‘the Union’) but would just prefer we stick together (heart over head perhaps).

      So the whole economic argument is irrelevant. The ‘benefits’ as you put it are social, societal – we are like a family sort of thing, and don’t forget this is what people have experienced all their lives and on a very simple human level, we struggle with change. But such people also recognise Scotland can do what it desires and would wish an independent Scotland well. So their view is essentially benign. I think this is probably how most people in England think but I cannot prove it.

      Reply
      Thank you for your response Southern bystander.

      Your first paragraph ‘England for the English’ Turning your back on your neighbour. A minority.

      They sound very much like Brexiteers who turned their back on their neighbours and who are a majority in England.

      ‘Better Together’ Social benefits, we are family. What people have experienced all their lives.

      I never really got this! Couldn’t understand why we couldn’t still be family and why any social benefits would be lost if Scotland became independent. The idea that if Scotland became independent your son living in England would become a foreigner I thought was totally bizarre.

      Everyone over 40 has experienced being in the EU all their lives but that didn’t seem to be an issue during the Brexit campaign & a majority in England voted for Brexit.

    196. Ruby says:

      I would say everyone is ‘racist’ although I wouldn’t use that word.

      I believe people don’t like change & they don’t like anything new, food, ideas, languages etc etc etc.

      Just take the British holidaymaker in Spain for example. The majority want English pubs, English food, beaches/excursions etc without foreigners.

      Is that bad?

      All the various cultures who live in the UK do the same.

    197. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I’m quite happy with an Indian restaurant across the road from me and a Chinese within a three minute walk.

      Cultural diversity?

    198. Ruby says:

      Brian Doonthetoon says:
      6 July, 2021 at 10:06 pm
      I’m quite happy with an Indian restaurant across the road from me and a Chinese within a three minute walk.

      Cultural diversity?

      Reply

      Is Chinese & Indian food not part of
      British culture?

    199. Southernbystander says:

      Hi Ruby (08:27)
      You said:
      ‘They sound very much like Brexiteers who turned their back on their neighbours and who are a majority in England.’

      Don’t think this is fair as people voted for Brexit for all sorts of reasons (including 38% in Scotland) – I know this as I live in a 50/50 Brexit voting area and know many who voted for it and why. And mainly people voted out because they don’t like the EU as an institution, didn’t want to be controlled by it, as they saw it anyway, and worried about their jobs being undercut, falsely in my view). The xenophobes are in their too of course.

      As for the foreigner in Scotland (and vice versa) thing, this is something I have thought about quite a bit and though you think it bizarre (and it is!), the truth is though, we, for example, will become foreigners in our respective countries. It’s a fact as it is part of what independence means. I guess how much of an impact that has depends on the arrangement. Irish people in England, who can come and go as they please, do not seem like foreigners and are not treated as such and that’s good but people do wonder, with talk of hard borders and stuff, what the future holds for Scots and English relations.

    200. Ruby says:

      Hard borders & stuff will be the least of our worries.

      If you had asked me a couple of years ago I would have said relations between England & Scotland would have remained the same perhaps even improved after independence.

      Now I have no idea. The future for Scotland is not looking good. The question is which country will become most fascist, most foreign?

      A couple of years ago I would have said a person from an Independent Scotland would be the least foreign person you could ever meet and that ‘Scottish Independence’ could as Alex Salmond said be a beacon of light for England.

      Currently even while part of the same Union people from another devolved nation could start to look very ‘foreign’ due to different laws. ie Hate Crime, self-id, trial without jury, etc etc etc.

      A lot of people in Scotland are starting to look very ‘foreign’ to me.

      Your son living in a different country wouldn’t make him a “foreigner” but him becoming a fascist might!

    201. Southernbystander says:

      Ruby says:
      7 July, 2021 at 7:24 pm
      Hard borders & stuff will be the least of our worries.

      Very wise words in your post Ruby.

      A few years back I was an admirer of Sturgeon and the SNP in general, from the point of view of their general political and social policy stance. The endless Tory governments in the UK make me depressed and angry and I looked north jealously, and after Brexit, despairingly.

      But the SNP didn’t really offer me any hope in England for obvious reasons, and on a personal level, I struggled to like Sturgeon, there was something about her, something slippery – she was almost too good, too smooth and I began to get the impression she was all talk. Friends didn’t see it but something niggled, badly. And then the whole ‘progressive’ agenda madness, Salmond scandal, numerous blatant failures, the lies, deception etc happened, and the rest is history. My friend is a journalist in Scotland and he said to me some years back (pre independence referendum), that ‘the SNP are very controlling you know’ and said it in a way that was quite worried. His words still ring in my ears.

      Meanwhile, Brexit happens, then Boris Johnson, the blatant liar and charlatan gets elected PM. Cue hysterical incredulity and misery, and I notice people around me, ordinary decent folk, actually think he’s an alright bloke. And like you, I feel alienated in my own country.

      Rock and a hard place. Things will change though, they always do.



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