Fire Water Burn
Robert Burns was well known for liking a wee dram. He grew up in the aftermath of the failed rising of 1745, living through the harsh and brutal consequences inflicted on Scotland by the Act of Proscription.
In “Earnest Cry and Prayer” the Bard was responding to the UK Parliament’s Scotch Distillery Act of 1786, a protectionist act aimed at supporting London’s gin industry by hiking duties on whisky sold in England and by taxing Scottish still capacity. It was a call for action to Scotland’s 45 members of Parliament from a man who understood the destructive power of such acts.
He asked which Scot would not feel his blood boil at seeing the resources of the nation’s stills destroyed and its wealth plundered, roaring to the MPs:
“God bless your Honors! can ye see’t,
The kind, auld, cantie carlin greet,
An’ no get warmly to your feet,
An’ gar them hear it,
An’ tell them wi’ a patriot-heat,
Ye winna bear it?”
As the UK Parliament is set to return from its summer holiday it is hard not to see continued parallels over the ages and again today.
Then it was whisky, for decades it was black gold and now it’s our renewable fortune. And as fate would have it, nearly 300 years later, as Westminster continues to seize our resources for the benefit of the City, still we have a feeble 45 willing to bear it.
Before she set off on her own summer tour of the Edinburgh Fringe and Book Festivals, the announcement by the First Minister of her route map to indyref 2 briefly injected much fire into the bellies of the independence movement.
(As someone that was treated as a pariah, even booed by SNP conference delegates, for attempting to make policy much of what Nicola Sturgeon has now adopted as her grand strategy, I did allow myself a wry smile.)
But as the cool heads in the independence stepped back to think about what was announced, it became quickly clear that this was not the masterstroke that many who previously treated a Plan B with a gush of fury and vitriol thought it was. Nor, for one very important reason, was it the same plan previously advocated for.
Back in 2019 we knew the path before us: there would be a General Election within a matter of months and there would be a Holyrood election in 2021. Senior figures such as Ian Blackford warned that a Plan B wasn’t needed as victory at a UK election would blow away any opposition Boris Johnson had to a “Gold Standard” referendum.
Some of us pointed out that if Johnson’s Government wasn’t willing to accept a triple mandate that the Scottish Government already had then a fourth and a fifth mandate would make no difference, and so it turned out.
For Plan B to work we needed the First Minister to issue the Prime Minister the rules of the game we would play – firstly that a General Election victory back in 2019 would be the final mandate for a referendum that would be sought, and that if Westminster persisted to refuse then the Scottish Government would proceed with its own vote.
If the UK Government used courtrooms to stop the people having their say then they would make their voices heard at the ballot box by turning the 2021 election into a de facto referendum on independence.
This required nuance. It required a concerted campaign at each step of the way to build up popular support in Scotland to ensure that each stage on this journey secured the required international recognition, thanks to the popular legitimacy forged in the process by the people.
On paper, the Plan B announced by Nicola Sturgeon still wants a referendum by agreement with the UK Government through the granting of a Section 30 order. But by virtue of the imprudence of referring the matter directly to the UK Supreme Court, Boris Johnson was allowed to spend the summer on a beach rather than being forced to answer the question as to why the people of Scotland are denied their right to self-determination in this supposed union of equals.
And so the weakest Prime Minister in history got to step down this week as Prime Minister having easily resisted the Scottish Government’s half-hearted attempts to respect successive mandates for an independence referendum.
As for the Supreme Court, is there a single member of the Scottish Government that believes that the London justices will side with them? The same court eviscerated the Scottish Government on the matter of the UN Charter On The Rights Of The Child, and that was an issue that every single member of the Scottish Parliament voted for.
By the manner in which the Lord Advocate has asked the question on competency, you could be excused for thinking she was asking them a rhetorical question. Dorothy Bain is a highly competent, experienced lawyer, but why the First Minister would appoint a Lord Advocate who doesn’t have confidence in the right of the Scottish Parliament to assert its own sovereignty is a question only Nicola Sturgeon can answer.
The Supreme Court may simply use the Scottish Government’s own arguments against them from the Keatings case at the Court Of Session. The Lord Advocate argued then that it would be premature to make a decision as no bill had been put forward to the Scottish Parliament. What’s different now? The Supreme Court may simply dismiss the case as premature and send the Scottish Government home to think again.
This would of course cause an almighty problem for the Scottish Government as the Lord Advocate has all but engraved in tablet that she doesn’t think the Scottish Parliament has the competence to hold an indyref.
If this eventuality prevails then the Scottish Government best get on with the job of separating the job Lord Advocate as both head of Crown Office and the Government’s Chief Legal Officer. Keeping the current incumbent in the former and appointing an individual willing to advocate the position of Scottish Ministers to the latter might be a good starting point.
However, all of this will be academic if the Supreme Court do what many expect it will relish to do – put the Scottish Government back in the box where the London establishment believes it belongs.
How different things could have been if the Scottish Government pursued its mandate(s) with democratic determination. The argument that the Scottish Parliament has the competence to hold a referendum on independence is much stronger if it’s sent to the Supreme Court by UK law officers after the people’s parliament of Scotland had decreed that there should be such a referendum.
It’s certainly a much stronger position to stand on than asking the Supreme Court, yourself, to get you out of a political fix.
And so, as opposed to having a strategic plan to bring the country with us, increasing support each step of the way as Scotland is denied its right to self-determination by London governments and institutions we didn’t vote for and who don’t have Scotland’s interests at heart, the plan to hold a referendum will be over by Christmas.
At this stage in my original “Plan B” I proposed that a pro-independence majority of seats in an election would act as the mandate Scotland needed to enter straight into independence negotiations with the UK Government.
This of course should’ve been a Scottish Parliament election. Why? Because it’s our franchise. To exclude 16- and 17-year-olds, as well as hundreds of thousands of new Scots from a de facto Referendum is an act of folly that stacks the odds against us.
On the back of a resourced campaign to get to that stage, that built a broad majority coalition in favour of the legitimacy of that approach, team Scotland could have marched to Downing Street to demand the UK Government come to the table.
But that’s not what Nicola Sturgeon has proposed. At first Angus Robertson refused to answer the question of what the success line in a de facto indyref would be, and then John Swinney was briefed against by special advisors that he had given the wrong answer when he said that a majority of seats would be the benchmark.
(And who could blame the Deputy First Minister? He was simply stating SNP policy pre-2000 and I am quite sure there hasn’t been a debate to say otherwise.)
The First Minister says that an SNP majority of votes would be required. But that requires the opposition to play along with the idea that the election is a proxy referendum. In general elections people take issues such as the cost of living, the state of public services, and their general dislike of the government into account. Many people will vote according to their own priority issues, such as the SNP’s hugely unpopular plans for gender reform.
So demanding that the only way to exercise your support for Scottish independence is by voting for a single political party, warts and all, is doomed for failure. Nobody demanded that Boris Johnson required a majority of votes to take Scotland out of the EU, it was deemed democratic for him to do so with a majority of seats.
If this is to be the way forward then it can only be a success if the ballot paper is free from the drawbacks and tribalism of party politics and instead takes the form of a united front, with a single candidate in every seat who stands for independence.
It is welcome that the SNP state they will have a debate on this policy at their conference next month. But it’s time for senior figures in the party and across the movement to speak up.
If they don’t, by the stroke of a pen, the First Minister will have undone the agreement of two decades ago made between Alex Salmond and Donald Dewar, that the Scottish Parliament had the right to hold a referendum if that’s what the people wanted.
We are now subjects of yet another Tory Prime Minister that we haven’t voted for. It’s long past time for the Scottish Government to start getting serious in its efforts to bend Westminster to the will of Scotland, as it failed to do during the chaotic reigns of Theresa May and Boris Johnson.
Dozens of pro-independence MPs have the capability of wreaking regular havoc and embarrassment on the UK government through Parliamentary interventions. Instead of urging MPs to treat the House Of Commons with respect, they should be compelled to treat the Westminster establishment with the same respect that it treats Scotland.
Britain has few friends in the world. There has never been a better time to reach out to the world to make the case for Scottish independence whilst highlighting that the UK Government – who are willing to send arms elsewhere in the world to defend democracy – are suppressing the right of Scotland to determine its own future.
All of this is in the backdrop of hard pressed Scots asking themselves why they are being forced into destitution by soaring energy costs when we live in a land of energy plenty that is self-sufficient in gas and generates enough electricity through renewables to power every home in Scotland.
With motivated leadership, people are ready to follow a mass movement of popular protest and demonstration, led by example in the Commons. It remains to be seen whether they’re given the opportunity.
“With motivated leadership…”
There’s the rub, Chris. It isn’t there in Holyrood nor Westminster SNP group.
Well said, Chris.
“Instead of urging MPs to treat the House Of Commons with respect, they should be compelled to treat the Westminster establishment with the same respect that it treats Scotland.”
This, a thousand times this. Don’t hold your breath waiting for these useless troughing bstrds in the SNP doing it though.
“Leadership”. Haven’t seen much of that since 2014. Unfortunately.
PLEASE NOTE: I’m going to be monitoring the comments on this story for a change, and if the usual suspects start screaming playground abuse at each other after half an hour as usual, I’ll just lock them.
” with a single candidate in every seat who stands for independence.”. This is what’s needed. Hell mend anyone who thwarts this.
” But it’s time for senior figures in the party and across the movement to speak up.” – Exactly.
Come on nuSNP MSPs and MPs, stand up and be counted. I am certain that most of you do not think a woman can have a penis.
Sturgeon has never been weaker. To free your constituents from this tory disaster all you have to do is:
“STAND UP TO STURGEON – FOR SCOTLAND”.
Does the SNP hierarchy have the balls to boot out the Murrels
What will the Murrels do
When will the security services leak the whatsapp messages
Who will be first to jail for perjury, missaccounting, malfeasance in public office, conspiracy to pervert the course of justice, really the list goes on.
If this is to be the way forward then it can only be a success if the ballot paper is free from the drawbacks and tribalism of party politics and instead takes the form of a united front, with a single candidate in every seat who stands for independence.
There’s another rub, Chris: there’s little chance that the SNP will agree to a “Popular Front” approach, and given their history even less chance that the Scottish Greens will agree given their predilection for allowing local branches absolute discretion as to decide whether they stand candidates as seen in Edinburgh Central for Holyrood constituency seats.
The independence movement as a whole has to either bend the SNP and Greens to its will (good luck with that one!) or make it abundantly clear that it is the total number of votes for ALL pro-independence parties that counts, not giving the SNP a majority.
A majority of seats has to be backed up by a majority of the vote.
From the Rev: “……I’ll just lock them.”
Thank god for that, most folk here are utterly pi***d off with them.
————————–
In the Independence movement it all comes back, every time, to the basic fact that we have plenty of very, very good arguments and legal documentation to support it, BUT, we do not and have not had for years the leadership to drive it forward.
We have a SG/SNP led by the most disgusting coward and Toom Tabard as FM and an utterly spineless group of MPs/MSPs who prefer to look into their wallets than stand up for Scotland.
It appears “London bridge is falling down”. Expect Pyongyang style compulsory, public wailing and rending of garments.
Further evidence that Scotland is culturally distinct from our southern neighbour.
Further ammunition to the cause if we had leadership willing to deploy it.
Leadership that should be “making the weather” rather than reacting to it.
@Vivian O’Blivion
‘Events, dear boy, events’. In the event we are about to witness the passing of the Elizabethan age and the dawning of the new Carolingian era, perhaps Scottish voters may find themselves taking stock, and wondering whether the cost benefit analysis of staying in the union has changed?
It’s an ill wind….
Without the backing of a mass movement that is willing to undertake acts of civil disobedience, I don’t think this is going anywhere (I don’t mean what’s in this article, I mean generally).
What do I mean by civil disobedience? The sort of thing the French would do (or the Dutch or Canadians). Shut down the M25 and make it clear it’s happening because No. 10 won’t allow an indyref. Piss off the home counties and they’ll badger Truss to let the bloody Jocks have their referendum. Of course all the respectable types – including Blackford and NS would clutch their pearls and condemn such a horrible thing, but so what?
Anyway, that’s just the way I see it. Also if HM passes just after Truss becomes PM, the whole system will be in a sort of crisis – it would be an opportunity that won’t come again…
We can have a plebiscitary election AND a referendum, it does not have to be either/or. In the plebiscitary election it is the majority of SEATS that should determine the outcome, until recently that was the accepted view. So we then declare independence, negotiate with RUK and run Scotland as an independent country for (say) 3 years, the hold a referendum as the Free State of Scotland to decide whether we want to negotiate a new treaty of union with England.
Brilliant article Chris. Absolutely hits the nail on the head. We wander in the wilderness just now with only a wonky SNP compass and an incompetent leader to guide us.
Very very disheartening.
‘Doomed to failure’
Depends what your objective is. If it is to guarantee re-election of the SNP troughers it fits the bill perfectly. The fact that it would result in a ‘No’ majority would not matter if such was the objective.
But in any event you can’t make an election into a referendum. Votes or seats is of no relevance if it has no validity. The non-independence parties wouldn’t play ball, even if all the independence parties agreed together (what chance of this?) to proceed on a one candidate for each seat basis. And many people would object to not being able to express through the ballot box their views on so many issues important to them. So even in the unlikely event of a majority of votes for ‘Yes’ it would count for nothing.
This is not the way forward. Sturgeon has had her chance and has been forced to look like she is doing something. People are being conned again into voting the SNP back in. They are not the party (as presently led and run) which will achieve independence.
Sturgeon may have done her utmost to undermine independence movement and it goes without saying that her scorched earth policy has been surreptitious but well planned in the service of her colonial masters.
And yes, whatever it is that the dark state holds over her and her husband by way of a threat of exposure, this could still well come.
She is to corrupt the book name about Irish collaborators a metaphorical “dead women walking”. Damned when it is deemed appropriate by her handlers or through the exposure by those she has mendaciously betrayed or by the electors. Whatever way, she will be gone.
In fact with the progress being made by SALVO, the SSRG, Alba and many others in the wider movement it is increasingly being recognised that she and her party are vulnerable to being replaced.
All things change. Our movement never went away. Sturgeon’s waste of mandate after mandate, her acceptance of Westminster superiority, her bad deals in alienating Scottish assets have been a hiccup, and a hiccup that should never have happened.
But, and this is a huge but, but our movement never went away and it is still here ready to burst into flame anew. We do not need the waster Sturgeon and her ilk.
The gravy train and protected status of so many in the SNP is coming to an end and Scotland with or without the SNP will come together to take the independence it is entitled to take.
Referendum acht! Dead duck. She’ll have the perfect excuse to suspend again this week anyhow when auld Lizzie goes to meet her maker.
Nicola Sturgeon ‘profoundly concerned’ by news of monarch’s health
This is a very good article it lays things out very clearly.
Another Master Class in how to do journalism by Rev Stu.
A couple of comments:
“In general elections people take issues such as the cost of living, the state of public services, and their general dislike of the government into account. Many people will vote according to their own priority issues, such as the SNP’s hugely unpopular plans for gender reform”
Indeed, and we can add the proposed abolition of Not Proven, which ought to infuriate those who believe Indy is about preservation of Scotland’s unique culture and legal system, etc. Then, the recent unjustifiable pay rise for some council workers, which will be paid for by stealing the money from equally or more deserving causes. And, the proposed smoking ban, in a country where already 3 people die from illegal drug misuse each day – potentially adding yet another set of unenforceable laws around illegal substances onto the buckling police service.
“All of this is in the backdrop of hard pressed Scots asking themselves why they are being forced into destitution by soaring energy costs when we live in a land of energy plenty that is self-sufficient in gas and generates enough electricity through renewables to power every home in Scotland”
All true enough. Except that WM looks likely to put in place a solution that will cancel these bills at a stroke. And some people have noticed that it was NS and HR that auctioned off Scotland’s wind renewables for a lot less than their true worth.
“So demanding that the only way to exercise your support for Scottish independence is by voting for a single political party, warts and all, is doomed for failure”
It most certainly is, if that party is the SNP. Time for Alba to up its game.
I have at lunchtime just watched the one O’Clock news and it very much has the tenor of Elizabeth Mountbatten on her way out.
Much as the death of anyone is a sad affair, the wall to wall tidal wave of faux Britannia following the death of the Queen will ring in even the deafest of ears and there will be no escape.
Moreover, the absolute pomp and circumstance of the septuagenarian adulterer of a son who will become King will be of similar proportions. Again folks will be fed a diet of Britannic majesty until they boak.
For most folks the death of the Queen and the appointment of a new King is of absolutely little or no consequence to their day to day lives save that the pomp and pampering serves to reinforce how ill divided our society is.
Me, I’m sorry to see anyone die, even an old lady who purred when Scotland lost the referendum But life moves on, and we need to move on too and use this opportunity to ditch the rank and privilege that the death of this monarch offers.
Very good article, Chris McEleny. I agree with it all, especially the important role assigned to the masses in protesting and demonstrating.
Sturgeon is a deeply unpopular and dark person, and her presence is stifling. Not only has she seriously damaged the independence movement, she has damaged the delicate idea that politics and voting can make a difference.
Some day she will be gone and everything will seem much brighter and clearer. We have a tendency to treat achieving independence like a chess opening — if they do this, we do that, and then blah, blah, blah. That whole mangled framework of confusion and negativity will go when Sturgeon goes — it belongs to her.
The case for independence has never been easier to make and win. We don’t need some especially gifted leader to get us there; all we need is a leader that will honestly commit to starting the debate and getting the ball rolling.
Andy Ellis says:
8 September, 2022 at 1:16 pm
@Vivian O’Blivion
‘Events, dear boy, events’. In the event we are about to witness the passing of the Elizabethan age and the dawning of the new Carolingian era, perhaps Scottish voters may find themselves taking stock, and wondering whether the cost benefit analysis of staying in the union has changed?
Tish and pish dear boy! Why, every Charles that has ascended the throne has ushered in a new era of peace, prosperity and plurality 😀
Willie, I had the misfortune to watch it too and the great fillers of speculation – how tedious.
I will be lucky/unlucky to make it to 96 – I’m only hoping to hang about long enough to see the children and grandchildren of Scotland settled in an independent, thriving country dealing with both the failures and successes which all experience.
Streuth! They’re doing a special on the BBBC.
Is The Scottish devolved government the correct soap box to stand on is the bigger question for me, along side the people entering, and mulling around waiting for pay day,
Sometimes it feels like the flag we hoist on that mast can only be faux,
For the devolved Scottish government is faux.
We are not only short of any worthy leadership in that government, but we lack the good foundations of actually having or it being a real Scottish parliament,
Especially as soon as the tiniest problem arises such as referendums We go running to Westminster or the supreme Court down south.
In reality theThe problem is not just the leadership in side the building, it is which leadership owns the Scottish devolved parliament heart and soul,
And that is London based.
Westminster politicians, ( no matter what PM selected) can and do laugh till the cows come home over Scotland begging bowl, for they control the porridge, the cauldron and the ladle.
Every move we make towards independence is is made and responded to through that Westminster mechanism.
The Scottish devolved government is a regional administrator for Scotland, This is never more obvious that when you study WESTMINSTERS LEVELING UP PROGRAMME.
All Counties in England since 2014 are to become Devolved by 2030 or 2035.
This places the whole of Scotlands devolved government in the same Category as a English County adminstration.
This is how Westminster see’s Scotland and its people through the prism of a County region,
Hanging different (political Party ) washing out on someone else’s washing line is not a solution, its a problem. It usually gets torn down by the owner.
She deid yet?
Thinking of getting a flagpole just so I can fly my Saltire at full mast.
Are you ready for King Charles Spaniel, the Tampon Boy that was “mentored” by Dickie Mountbatten? Cos I dont really think the English are. Time to take the maximum advantage from their weaknesses.
The supposed referendum, the plebicite is all tinkering around the edges. We will NEVER regain our freedom by politely complying with UK laws. Doesn’t matter how diligently we dot the ‘i’s and cross the ‘t’s – it will not happen.
Sticking by the SNP’s snail like trail of hope is wasting time and valuable resources Scotland cannot afford. If the indy movement cannot get its act together and move on a single route together, we will continue to be lost amongst events. Even if Alba gets every seat in every constituency in the next GE , the WM run franchise and WM funded IDOX will move to scupper it.
Ditch WM and its rules. Ditch the servitude.
If all our routes to indy are barred by WM and their courts, we engage in persistent and devastating civil disobedience until WM can no longer afford to keep Scotland tied down.
Chris, the Lord Advocate is allowed to ask this question of the SUpreme Court without there being a bill in progress, which is different from an individual doing so. Why? Who knows? It was explained when first introduced. Otherwise agree completely. And fully expect the UK gov to use the Scot Gov own arguments they used against you in this case. A shambles. But it needed doing. In 2016…
It’s interesting to see Chris McEleny refer to “the right of the Scottish Parliament to assert its own sovereignty”. If only Alba Party had spoken in such terms from the outset, it might have gained better traction.
I concluded some time ago that #ScottishUDI is the only way Scotland’s independence will be restored. The Scottish Parliament asserting its unique competence in constitutional matters is the key to the whole process. This is effectively a unilateral declaration of independence ? but done in a subtle way.
The Scottish Parliament can assert itself as Scotland’s only parliament on the basis of the democratic legitimacy it derives from the mandate granted by the sovereign people of Scotland.
The Scottish Government acting through the Scottish Parliament, can justify the extra-legal measure of asserting the competence of the Scottish Parliament stating that this is the only way the people of Scotland can be afforded the opportunity to exercise their right of self-determination ? aright guaranteed by the UN.
Everything else flows from that one act of the Scottish Parliament asserting the sovereignty it exercises in the name of Scotland’s people. There shall, of course, be challenges. The British state will challenge anything that puts the Union in jeopardy. If we are not prepared to face such challenges then we probably don’t deserve to be independent.
Nicola Sturgeon does not lack the ability to take this course of action. She lacks the will. She will have to be pushed. She will have to be pushed soon and she will have to be pushed hard. That will take a united effort on the part of the Yes movement. Therein lies our greatest problem.
I had hoped that Alba Party might be the core around which the Yes movement coalesced. That didn’t happen. This is not the place to get into the reasons for this. I’ll just say there were some very unfortunate choices made by the party’s leadership in the early days.
It is hard to know whether Alba Party might yet adopt the role I had envisaged. But arguably the most vital thing the party needs is a distinct identity. Previously, there was little to distinguish Alba’s thinking on the process by which Scotland’s independence will be restored from that of the SNP. If what we’re getting from Chris signal a hardening and radicalising of that thinking then Alba possibly could be the entity which takes the lead in pressing the SNP+SGP/Scottish Government on the constitutional issue.
Time is NOT on our side. The coming UK general election will see the British parties vying with one another to present the most Draconian proposals for dealing with the ‘Scottish problem’. The next UK Government will certainly set about implementing whichever of those measures it chooses. At that point, we will be but weeks away from being constitutionally and legally locked into the British state. Scotland will be no more. The Greater England project will have succeeded after 300+ years.
I think the Queen is already dead – the way they are going on, it seems “certain”; they are probably waiting for the 6 o’clock news. They will pull the plug then.
– what is it called “operation unicorn”
then we have the funeral and coronation to suffer/experience.
“Charles” do not have a good run as kings; maybe they should skip to William. King Billy – at least someone is happy.
Not doing things you should be doing and done a long time ago – “out of respect” – is another trick which will not be passed on.
Royal wills are interesting documents, but they try to keep them secret.
A wit on Twitter posted:
Quexit
@Geoff Bush 1.26 pm
We can have a plebiscitary election AND a referendum, it does not have to be either/or.
Why on earth would we need both? 50% +1 votes for pro independence parties standing on a plebiscitary mandate either at WM or HR equals independence. Simples. No need for a follow up referendum, the die would already have been cast.
In the plebiscitary election it is the majority of SEATS that should determine the outcome, until recently that was the accepted view.
Until we had our own parliament it was the view, but times have changed. The UK as a polity had little experience of referendums and the britnat establishment, particularly given the pretensions of English parliament to being sovereign, doesn’t really like referendums. Even so, referendums are generally accepted as the “usual” route to independence in cases of self determination. It is certainly vanishingly unlikely the international community would take a blind bit of notice of independence claimed without clear evidence of a majority of Scots voters approving it, whether via referendum or plebiscitary election.
Why complicate matters by conjuring the ghost of the Free State, or positing a 3 year transition period?
12 Days of mourning folks. I can see the headlines now. ‘How dare callus Sturgeon try to break up the Queens legacy, in the Nations time of grief’.
And of course Nicola will jump on the latest excuse to back down.
link to archive.ph
Tampongate the original.
If this starts trending if could take the heat off Jason.
@Merganser 1.38 pm
But in any event you can’t make an election into a referendum.
Says who? The people of Ireland might disagree with you. All the people of Scotland have to do is dole out the same treatment to the SNP the Irish did to the IPP in 1918.
The non-independence parties wouldn’t play ball, even if all the independence parties agreed together (what chance of this?) to proceed on a one candidate for each seat basis.
Abstentionism is a dangerous game for unionists. Unless turnout was freakishly low (i.e. below 50%) there’s no hard and fast rule that a majority in a plebiscitary election wouldn’t be accepted internationally and domestically, particularly where the British nationalists were seen to be exhibiting bad faith by failing to honour the 2014 precedent, or by trying to place artificial and novel obstacles in the path of an independence movement with multiple mandates.
This is not the way forward.
Unless the whole movement unites around the concept of a majority of votes (not just seats!) for pro-independence parties in plebiscitary elections being de facto independence, then achieving independence is being kicked in to the long grass. UDI and “cunning plans” are non-starters, and there will be no “legal” referendum for the foreseeable future. If you’re content to wait a generation, then carry on. Otherwise, get behind making EVERY election plebiscitary and/or ensuring the SNP is either converted or destroyed à la IPP in 1918.
“Until we had our own parliament…”
We don’t have our own parliament, we have an administrative office block called Holyrood.
If we had our own parliament, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
There is nothing democratically wrong with using elected representatives to represent us.
If there is a bone of contention that there may not have been a majority for any such action there could always be a precise measurement (a referendum).
A referendum with parameters made by the People’s representatives.
No need for another country to be involved.
If I remember correctly I think the Scottish Greens walked out of the Holyrood chamber before the remaining royalist sycophants wasted time on praising the recent platitudinous jubilee. I hope they do the same when it comes to the inevitable sycophantic ritual in praise of a dead queen.
Confused @ 3.08pm could well be right.
BBC using measured tones. Can’t come right out with it. Need to prepare the population, get all the TV cameras in the right places.
Doug,
I think we can all be sorry that a wee, old woman is dead and that a family have lost a relative.
Unfortunately the monarchy will continue in one guise or another.
I love the single front concept at the next GE.
Let’s have an assembly of all pro Indy party’s MPs and MSPs and important figures in the YES Movement to decide the way forward. Then vote in 59 candidates representing not any existing political party just the ‘new’ Independence Party to stand in all 59 constituencies in Scotland on the same mandate that if there is a majority of seats won then no Independence supporting MPs would take their seats in Westminster. We would start immediate negotiations to dissolve the Union.
Would Ms Sturgeon agree to this sensible suggestion?
Chris…
Your biggest and most basic of all failures is that you persist in believing that the SNP leadership want an independent Scotland.
The fact, supported by actions, or rather the lack thereof, is that the SNP supports the status quo and by that, the constitutional position of devolution within the UK.
The SNP stopped being pro-Indy in 2015, and granted there are those out there including yourself who still believe in the periodic pro-Indy rhetoric, but to quote an oft used meme caption, “Once you see it…”
Jeezo here’s A. Ellis again, right in there promoting 50%+1 at a UK general election – doomed to failure as things stand, 1 party against the 3 ‘big’ English parties.
Read it again, Andy;
“This of course should’ve been a Scottish Parliament election. Why? Because it’s our franchise. To exclude 16- and 17-year-olds, as well as hundreds of thousands of new Scots from a de facto Referendum is an act of folly that stacks the odds against us….”
“The First Minister says that an SNP majority of votes would be required. But that requires the opposition to play along with the idea that the election is a proxy referendum. In general elections people take issues such as the cost of living, the state of public services, and their general dislike of the government into account. Many people will vote according to their own priority issues, such as the SNP’s hugely unpopular plans for gender reform….”
“So demanding that the only way to exercise your support for Scottish independence is by voting for a single political party, warts and all, is doomed for failure. Nobody demanded that Boris Johnson required a majority of votes to take Scotland out of the EU, it was deemed democratic for him to do so with a majority of seats….”
The party political fighting over whom shall rule or lead the Snp or who will be the new boss in Westminsters Scottish administration is little more than a paper trail version of carrot dangling.
When the queen passes, the first thing holyrood will do when the mourning is passed, afterwards will be to raise its glass to, long live the kings,. We will take the oath of fealty and loyalty to Westminster whom claims to be the Sovereign in Britain.
In amongst all the rhetoric of kings, queens and Sovereignty there lies this feeling that the treaty of union between the two countries of Scotland and England has been Cannibalised, Colonised, and consumed by Westminster. Then spat out to look like wastage lying in the gutter or garbage bin.
Scotland half of the Treaty has been consumed by Any political parties in Scotland that has let this go pass them as if only England has been in a treaty with itself for the last three hundred years
For No one to be angry that Scotlands half of the treaty helped make Britain, and should still hold its original value today is beyond me,
When it comes down to this issue there is not one politician, NOT ONE that Stands head above the others on Scotlands behalf.
From a personal point of view the Scottish half of the treaty has already been made void, ended.
All Our politicians are as fake as the Scottish devolved regional parliament.
And meanwhile old Labourite’s and Snp’s in Scotland think if they hijack The people of Scotland’s sovereignty to transfer it to the Scottish devolved parliament, bobs yer uncle, they will own it, if we freely give it up to them,
As mentioned above, It has not been the political parties feigning to be independence parties nor the Scottish devolved government that have kept the fires of independence burning and brought us this far,
It has been us, the likes of Stu, and many other Scottish bloggers, the grassroots movement all over Scotland, And they tried everything in their path of tools to stem that going forward.
I am passed the point in believing that for Scotland the system we had, the system we used, the system available to us in the past or present is the right one,
For if we follow the string they lay out for us, we will always arrive where they want our destination to be.
We have to set up our own Sovereign Scots right to self determination parliament because Englands Westminster parliament is certainly still in use and following these principles separate from the treaty of the union articles
How do we do this beside good organisation?
Firstly,
We cannot touch or close the devolved government, as this would be more than likely be,
1: viewed as UDI.
2: viewed as Treason.
However [The Sovereign Scots right to self determination parliament ] is a different kettle of fish for Westminster the UN and other Countries to Contend with,
Still far too many can’t see that the SNP proposals are simply can-kicking. The Supreme Court stunt is a delay tactic and they know the GE terms are doomed to failure. What then though? What happens if they get 46% of the vote and 50 MPs? The ultimate ‘settle-dooners’. What a life that’ll be. I can imagine that is far preferable to the discomfort of having to build a nation and partake in negotiation with London.
Also The last couple of days presented a golden opportunity to ditch the growth commission proposals. A rapidly declining currency could easily have been sited as a reason to drop the proposal and get behind a new floating currency from day 1 (who would want to peg to sterling??)
Alas, we have a party which has been utterly overrun by the London faithful.
James.
Do you mind if I do a wee correct to your sentence for fun,
Re- boris johnson…..democratic?
Should it not read,
Boris Johnson……Demoncratic 😉
Doug says:
8 September, 2022 at 3:42 pm
If I remember correctly I think the Scottish Greens walked out of the Holyrood chamber before the remaining royalist sycophants wasted time on praising the recent platitudinous jubilee. I hope they do the same when it comes to the inevitable sycophantic ritual in praise of a dead queen.
The only queen they’ll mourn is one that appeared in Ru Paul’s Drag Race.
@James 4.29 pm
I don’t need to read it again. It’s votes that matter, not seats. None of this is rocket science and it’s been well rehearsed. It doesn’t mean votes just for the SNP. If there is no “United Front” – which would be preferable – then the votes for all pro indy parties count towards the total.
The alternative is deferring independence for a good long time. I don’t have much faith the SNP will spontaneously change, or that it’s membership will suddenly topple Sturgeon and her cadres, do you?
The snp are way too nicey nicey but maybe they just enjoy being ridiculed by the tories every week in the commons.
Someone on Rev.Stu’s facebook page – an Alba supporter to be exact – has just posted the following howler:
Iain Hamilton
I saw earlier that when a prince of Wales becomes king, he often adopts a different name; with Charles purportedly to become Edward VII.
Is Edward his confirmation name?
FFS, he would be Edward IX – or has he never heard of old Nazi Edward VIII who chucked the throne for his Yankee burd?
His story’s pish anyway, as the latter was Prince Edward.
Wonder whether the Glasgow Yestival on the 18th will be called off if “the nation is in mourning”
I can’t understand why people are so keen to back Nicola’s de facto referendum whether it’s votes, seats or whatever.
People should be demanding that Nicola Sturgeon get us a S30 referendum as promised and if she can’t then she should step aside and let someone else try.
How mental is it to believe that politicians who are very cosy in Westminster are going to campaign enthusiastically for independence during a GE.
This lack of enthusiasm could be the reason Sturgeon hasn’t been able to get us an S30.
If there has to be any protest I reckon it should be demands for a S30. Instead of marching in Scotland AUOB should be creating havoc outside Westminster right in front of all the many TV cameras.
Give up on the SNP MPs they are not going to do anything.
Re Boris’s beach babe photo who are all the guys on the right? Are these his bodyguards?
It’s a weird photo.
Breastplate.
If we had our own parliament, we wouldn’t be having this conversation .
Absolutely spot on.
Mark Boyle says:
8 September, 2022 at 5:18 pm
FFS, he would be Edward IX – or has he never heard of old Nazi Edward VIII who chucked the throne for his Yankee burd?
Isn’t he called Philip Charles Arthur George?
Any of these names would be OK but might be trickier when William Arthur Philip Louis becomes King. It would be a big disappointment to all their hardcore fans if they didn’t decide on King Billy.
While the oil shortage, ahemm ” coughs up sleeve” is all someone else fault far far away,
We see the europeans inviting the Uk to join them in oil price fixing,
I see the result will be more hardship for their own people in Britain rather than harming anyone far far away,
The interesting side line to this is Westminsters boast that Britain still has Trillions of barrels of oil left in the north sea.
Now if we were cynical we could presume,
That is number one reason that Westminster cannot afford to separate from Scotland, because once the prices have been forced up UK will sell, sell sell,
Scotland oil for a second time making large profits for their coffers.
Better off together,
Geoff Bush says:
8 September, 2022 at 1:26 pm
We can have a plebiscitary election AND a referendum, it does not have to be either/or. In the plebiscitary election it is the majority of SEATS that should determine the outcome, until recently that was the accepted view.
———–
It was never the accepted view. It might have been policy within the SNP but there’s no way that a simple majority of seats on the single, biggest decision Scots will ever take, would be acceptable to the general public
Supposing the SNP won a majority of seats (on 32% of the vote) in the 1997 General Election and attempted to declare independence. There’s no way the UK Government, Scottish public or the international community would have accepted it. More than likely, the Labour Government would have acknowledged the democratic mandate and would have entered into negotiations with the SNP in order to hold a referendum (best case scenario).
At a recent Alba event (on YouTube) Alex Salmond mentioned that Margaret Thatcher would never have granted Scottish independence based on a majority of seats. There’s no way the unionist majority will allow a minority of voters to drag Scotland out of the UK against its will. If you want to secure independence, then persuade the majority of the Scottish electorate that it’s the best choice. Right now, you’re unable to do so.
I hope the Queen’s last words are “Just give Scotland her independence. And I leave Balmoral to the public”. How much did it cost for Boris and Truss to fly, separately, to Balmoral, when food banks are struggling? BBC desperately trying to find things to say about Balmoral just now …
Bloody obvious she was already deid.
Andy Ellis @ 3.29
‘If you are content to wait for a generation, carry on. Otherwise,
get behind making every election plebiscitary and or ensuring the SNP is either converted or destroyed’
Hmm. The way Sturgeon has tee’d this one up means it will be doomed to failure as Chris McEleny says. Where does that leave us? Well, another 5 years led by the SNP troughers. And at the end of that, do you trust them to change their tune for the next? Are you going to convert them or destroy them with a wave of your magic wand?
Have you considered the effect of what another ‘No’ vote would have on the independence movement? And you think you can carry on holding and losing them? That sounds very much like Sturgeon’s cunning plan.
If anything is going to delay independence it is the pursuit of something doomed to failure; and to then keep repeating the same mistake.
makes you wonder when that photos of truss not were taken.
Chris first i’d like to thank you for having the guts to contribute to WOS , it appears ONLY ALBA MP’S and officials are still AWARE of the massive contribution that Stuart Campbell has and will have on the independence drive
Unfortunately the continued absence of anyone from the supposed independence party only serves to highlight and reinforce the profound belief that independence falls way down on their priority list , now if Stu were more amenable to cocks in frocks I am sure he would have to be considering limiting their applications for appearances on the blog
My concerns at the route ALBA has chosen is that it is NOT aggressive enough , it is far too civil , sturgeon hasn’t and will not stop from using every DIRTY and UNDERHAND trick to remain in power as she has proved . ALBA members have to prove that they are prepared to do the same , if the union is under threat she will have the backing of ALL the unionist parties and ALBA must be prepared to fight fire with fire
Feel sorry for the queen that her last formal engagement was with Liz Truss
So will Friday be a public holiday?
Jim Tadgercock, I believe not. Also, the funeral will be on D+9, which, by my count, makes it a week on Saturday. So many people will not get a holiday.
Ach, here’s a tune to remind Scotland that a recent poll noted that less than half of Scots support retaining the monarchy.
Republica – Ready To Go
link to youtube.com
@James che says:8 September, 2022 at 6:02 pm
The recoverable reserves of any natural resource, such as oil, gas, bauxite or guano, depends on the price.
Increase the price people will pay, and the supply axiomatically increases, as previously uneconomic reserves are “magically” converted to economically recoverable reserves.
Once that concept is understood, it is possible to talk meaningfully about how much oil and gas there is, how long it will last, and what it is worth.
Well Truss has said it. King Charlie III it is. Or has she fecked up!
She probably died months ago. They have obviously been holding it in reserve so they can distract the angry energy bill ravaged plebs with more bread n circuses starting now.
The roof, the roof, the roof is on fire…
If this article from 2017 is still relevant
Then it describes what happens if the Queen dies at Balmoral
Including a flower-strewn slow train down the East Coast rail line from Waverley Station
Plenty photo-ops for the First Minister
link to theguardian.com
robbo says:
8 September, 2022 at 6:35 pm
Bloody obvious she was already deid.
auld highlander says:
8 September, 2022 at 6:38 pm
makes you wonder when that photos of truss not were taken.
dandydons1903 says:
8 September, 2022 at 7:17 pm
She probably died months ago. They have obviously been holding it in reserve so they can distract the angry energy bill ravaged plebs with more bread n circuses starting now.
“Listen. The children of the night make their music …”
Chris McEleny is right in his analysis. The many SNP MP’s at Westminster could indeed upset the processes and prcedures and cause a great deal of mayhem. They choose not to. Indeed, I watched Iain Blackford today, chuckling along with Theresa May in the HoC. Those SNP MP’s are all way too cosy down in London, playing along with Westminster’s nonsense while the folk who actually elected them watch on in utter dismay.
For London’s gold and all that, or maybe just the 85k salary plus expenses, plus free flights, plus free second home in London, plus subsidised meals and drinks. It is easy to see why they might have decided that it is easier to tell themselves that ‘really, we need to wait and see, and not rush into independence, and, after all, if we play by the rules, we might get to ask a wee question now and then -get to sit on committees and pretend to have some influence’. I do not doubt many SNP MP’s tell themselves something along those lines. The reality is they have all just got to like their flashy lifestyle, and loads of dosh, a wee bit too much. Independence for them at least, can wait.
Up here in Scotland, you might hardly notice that the SNP are intending to hold an independence referendum next year. But then again, that’s not so surprising, since they know full well, they have zero intention of holding a referendum. This is all about the SNP getting elected at the next election.
It is depressing to sit and watch as Scotland gets right royally f***ed by England, and the SNP just sit and whine, whine, whine. They have no fight in them, no fire in their belly. Oh for Alex Salmond to still be FM. He actually wanted independence for real, whereas the current SNP are a bunch of chancers and charlatans, riding the gravy train for all it is worth.
ScottieDog says:
8 September, 2022 at 6:43 pm
Feel sorry for the queen that her last formal engagement was with Liz Truss
Charlie as King, Liz Truss as Prime Minister – if there was a zombie apocalypse tomorrow they’d likely just point and laugh at the living.
@Mark Boyle says:8 September, 2022 at 7:56 pm
“distract the angry energy bill ravaged plebs”
The unfathomable aspect of this is that some posters on here don’t seem to be able to grasp that Liz (the new one) has with one stroke of her pen, neutralised those energy bills.
So, the “energy bill ravaged plebs” exist only in some people’s heids.
That’s a piss-poor constituency to build an Indy movement on.
The Queens passing will unite us all. We can now get back to being one nation. Sorry…just been asked to write Truss’s new speech. Bet it’s not far off the mark.
On the plus side Sevco will no longer be the Queens eleven. Even she couldn’t save them.
Mark Boyle says:
8 September, 2022 at 7:56 pm
robbo says:
8 September, 2022 at 6:35 pm
Bloody obvious she was already deid.
———
It was quite obvious that it was the case. The whole family were on route to Balmoral and looked as glum as you always are on here everyday .
I couldn’t care less you can’t put two and two together Boyle-
Oh no John Main strikes again.
The unfathomable aspect of this is that some posters on here don’t seem to be able to grasp that Liz (the new one) has with one stroke of her pen, neutralised those energy bills.
Lol
You mean transferred to here link to ukdebtclock.co.uk
Show us the money Main?
Throughout my life, I could take or leave the idea of “Monarchy”. Its one saving grace was that our defence forces swear allegiance to the monarch, not to the government or parliament.
In the event of the troops being sent in (by the government) to quell civil disquiet, the monarch would have to decide whether to be on the side of his/her “subjects” or her/his government and direct her forces appropriately.
That decision, taken wrongly, could be calamitous.
“Increase the price people will pay, and the supply axiomatically increases, as previously uneconomic reserves are “magically” converted to economically recoverable reserves.”
This is the classic neoliberal myopia regarding resources.
If I have a back garden with a large coppice, the price of firewood doesn’t matter…
“Big Jock says:
8 September, 2022 at 8:27 pm
On the plus side Sevco will no longer be the Queens eleven. Even she couldn’t save them.”
Not Charles the 3rd then – he’ll be King Zonze.
robbo says:
8 September, 2022 at 8:29 pm
It was quite obvious that it was the case. The whole family were on route to Balmoral and looked as glum as you always are on here everyday .
I couldn’t care less you can’t put two and two together Boyle
The trouble is when you put two and two together you think the answer’s twenty two …
@ScottieDog says:8 September, 2022 at 8:47 pm
“This is the classic neoliberal myopia regarding resources”
Naw, it’s the inexorable play of supply and demand.
Universally applicable, even in Scotland, both pre and post Indy.
Not gonna dwell on it coz Rev don’t like the subject, but better news emerging for Ukr troops in Balakliia… Driven out DPR troops and taken the “city”. (Being called a city but population is about 25k.. but described as a city).
No word on cost or casualties for either, but brace yourselves for war stories emerging over next few days.
Talk of lots of foreign mercs being involved… sounds ominous, but details are sketchy.
It’s possible it’s a desperate death or glory morale booster, (morale was in trouble after the dismal Kherson offensive), but it’s an “event”, an “R” reverse against the run of play, and it’s fuller significance will become clearer in due course.
@robbo says:8 September, 2022 at 8:37 pm
“debt clock”
You think anybody much cares about that?
What percentage of the voters do you think care about that?
1%, 10%?
What percentage of the voters now believe that their bills will be affordable come Xmas 2022, and are heaving a huge sigh of relief as a result, and are able to leave the box on for Strictly, The Masked Minger, etc?
50%, 80%, 90%?
Lol. I only pop in here now and again so a lot of you are new to me, but John Main you don’t half talk some pish. Lmao.
@John Main
Ask Norway if they want to swap their resources for the city of London.
Resources (or lack of) – the cause of most wars
John Main says:
8 September, 2022 at 8:25 pm
The unfathomable aspect of this is that some posters on here don’t seem to be able to grasp that Liz (the new one) has with one stroke of her pen, neutralised those energy bills.
Craig Murray did tell us the following:
Word going around FCDO staff is that Truss is going to throw far more public money than anyone had anticipated at the energy companies to freeze people’s energy bills – to prevent a haemmorage of support for the war in redacted.
I’ve just had a horrible thought after the funeral there’s going to be the coronation.
Ach, Ruby, let the English have their coronation, if it makes them feel better. Scotland will be packing its bags by the time it comes around.
The Queen had a remarkable life and really did dedicate herself to a sense of duty.
God rest the woman but with millions living in poverty struggling to eat and heat it just isn’t right to have other human beings ride around in gold coaches with crowns on their head.
So do overworked and under paid nurses need or want Charlie and Camila stopping by to say well done for the cameras or would a pay rise and proper staffing levels be better.
How ridiculous to hear a child is now to be known as the Duke of Cornwall now that his Great Granny has passed away.
It’s time for the Archer’s theme tune to replace God Save Anyone played at English Sports events.
One_Scot says:
8 September, 2022 at 9:28 pm
Lol. I only pop in here now and again so a lot of you are new to me, but John Main you don’t half talk some pish. Lmao.
Coming from the poster who once claimed “Ian Blackford has played a blinder” in the Commons (never happened, and never will), irony clearly isn’t your strong point.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
@Brian Doonthetoon 8:43pn
So we would prefer our forces to swear allegiance to Nicola Sturgeon? Me and you have lead parallel lives. Free speech is one thing catching the moment is another. I was looking after my grandchildren today so I still haven’t read Chris’s article. I will respond to Chris’s article tomorrow. I lot of effort went into that article. I will respond to it but comments on here suggest it will be a waste of time and that from heavily monitored comments.
MSM going strong on the queen dieing in Scotland and the new monarch starting in Scotland.
Britain is great
She was the glue that held us together
Day 1 it is painful
Skip_NC says:
“Ach, Ruby, let the English have their coronation, if it makes them feel better. Scotland will be packing its bags by the time it comes around.”
——————–
Your word in Gods ear, Skip. My bags were packed, ready and waiting a long tome ago.
Mistress Liz she dead
final words :
“the horr-or …”
or final words, hardcase version – beckons Charles forward …
youtu.be/ZfmIVsXBCOw?t=497
Meghan Markle will be applying for the vacancy, as soon as she gets her cars brakes checked.
When he ascends to the throne, Charles gets “the key to the secret room which should never be opened”.
– no one knows what is in that room. Or who. Or what.
(its the gates of hell, and a gift basket from rudolf hess)
link to twitter.com
Listen to this… Can you just imagine Eva Comrie as Scotland’s First Minister? Quite a wake up call, don’t you think?
How in god’s name did we end lumbered with Sturgeon? Why is she still there? The legal profession could boot her out for professional incompetence, so why the fk can’t we?
More to the point, how in god’s name do we rid ourselves of Sturgeon? She’s been standing on the neck of Scotland for EIGHT FUCKING YEARS! EIGHT!
What the fuck is wrong with you Scotland? How many ardent patriots have passed away these long eight years, hoping their entire lives to see Scotland free?
I cannot abide the woman.
Oh well, at least there’s some news to cheer us all up:
link to telegraph.co.uk
Ho ho ho, nae luck Iain. Biggest news story in seventy years just breaks, and you don’t get to write some sycophantic soliloquy in the Rangers Fanzine ‘cos you’ve blotted your copybook big time – clearly the post-football depression took its toll on your decision making.
Until Charles swears the Coronation Oath he has no authority in Scotland, per Claim of Right Act 1689.
“That by the law of this Kingdome no papist can be King or Queen of this realme nor bear any office whatsomever therin nor can any protestant successor exercise the regall power untill he or she swear the Coronation Oath”
In theory, members of the Privy Council representing Scotland could end the personal & political unions by convening. The quorum is only 3…Alex Salmond should invite Tricia Marwick & Nicola Sturgeon round.
Oh dear an effin German parasite droppd deid. That is one less long term drain on the tax payer then.
I guess someone has just been handed the perfect excuse to kick the IndRef2 can down the road, again…
After all, how the hell do you run a campaign for Independence when in the midst of it, assuming we’re talking July, the British Establishment, Yoon press and in particular the State Broadcaster, go into Union-Jackery overdrive for the coronation and shove their “aren’t we all terribly, terribly proud to be British” B-S down everyone’s throats for a solid month if not three!
Commemorative mug anyone?
As I understand it, with the death of the old Queen, the Westminster MPs will have to convene and swear a new oath of allegience to our new King.
Wouldn’t that be a great time for the Scottish MPs to withdraw from Westminster and put in-place the first steps towards the repeal of the Act/Treaty of Union.
Timing is everything and in the controlled chaos of the new King taking over, a curve ball like that would really unsettle the Tories.
Trouble is, there is no way the SNP time-servers would ever take such a radical step – a bunch of troughing fearties.
Should be a great week or two for all the florists in the land.
God save the florists.
” Listen to this… Can you just imagine Eva Comrie as Scotland’s First Minister? ”
Eva is the Anti-Sturgeon ie everything that deceitful , narcissistic , flaky fake should be as de fckn facto leader of the Independence Movement but can’t drag herself away from the mirror that tells her she’s the ” most Progressive one of all ” to see the trail of carnage she’s leaving all around her .
No disrespect to Alex , he’ll always be a priceless asset , but if ALBA has any sense they would elect Eva as leader – the contrast in honesty , commitment and character between her and I , Me , My Sturgeon’s “I know I have the body but of a weak and feeble woman; but I have a weak and feeble heart and mind too ” soporific melodrama couldn’t be more stark .
Eva is the real thing . NS is * Made In Turkey * designer brand knock-off
@Scott says:9 September, 2022 at 1:23 am
“Until Charles swears the Coronation Oath he has no authority in Scotland, per Claim of Right Act 1689”
Indeed.
And we can all take a mo to ponder the obverse of that statement.
Once Charles swears the Coronation Oath, he will be King of Scotland, as per blah, blah, going back to March 1603.
Funny how often 1707 pops up on here, but never 1603. Facts, eh? Awkward chiels.
The anglocentric keystone of BritState, Elizabeth2 of England is dead.
The established powers are however alive and headbutting as a new one is hoisted into place.
Long live North Britain!
Non è finita questa commedia!
@George Ferguson says:8 September, 2022 at 10:57 pm
It is a point frequently made by Peter Hitchens that the role of constitutional monarch occupies a square on the chess board of politics and power.
Leave that square vacant, and something or somebody else will take it over. As you ask, do we want our countrymen and women to swear allegiance to NS? If we do, what happens if she sends them out against the innocent, whether awkward protesters, or political rivals? What happens if she is defeated in a closely-fought and contested election and decides to do a Trump?
Is swearing allegiance just another artifact of the past that the new progressive Scotland should discard? Maybes it’s all meaningless anyway.
Yet I am derided for saying the route to Indy lies through personal financial benefit for ordinary Scots. What is the source of that derision, if it is not a belief that there are higher aspirations?
Nation, culture, people, freedom. Is that really just a kinda 9-5 idea with paid holidays and 10 statutory sickies PA?
Can’t wait to see all the wannabe edgelords out and about today wearing their old The Smiths ‘The Queen Is Dead’ t-shirts as if anyone can read the lettering on it.
John Main…
1603 was simply a regal union where the Court of James VI, King of Scots, pissed off to London and the Royal Household and Scots nobility began to favour the English tongue instead of Scots.
Charles I was crowned King of Scots in 1633 and Charles II in 1649 – he being the last monarch to be crowned King of Scots and last to wear the Crown of Scotland.
Thereafter, James VII, William II & Mary II and Anne were effectively monarch’s of the Kingdom of Scotland in absentia; none having visited the Kingdom of Scotland let alone having a coronation there.
In fact, not a single King or Queen of the Kingdom of Great Britain bothered to set foot in Scotland throughout that state’s entire existence from 1707-1800.
It wasn’t until 1822 that a monarch, by that time of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Ireland, bothered to set foot in Scotland since Charles II – King George IV of the United Kingdom.
These are the facts dear boy, but I fail to see your point as to the relevance of 1603 versus 1707. The Kingdom of Scotland was an independent, sovereign state until the 1st of May 1707 – the events of 1603 didn’t alter that particular fact.
@Ottomanboi says:9 September, 2022 at 8:24 am
I am confident Rev Stu will grant you as much time and space as you need to detail your vision for the new constitution of the new iScotland.
Presumably it will be so self-evidently brilliant, that nobody will be able to pick any flaws in it. Make sure you state that it is entirely free of copyright so that Alba, the Greens, the SNP, and even some Tories, can enshrine it in their manifestos.
Overwhelming acceptance by the people of Scotland is guaranteed to be a shoe-in.
Take your time, Otto, to get it right. We promise not to laugh.
John M
” …..personal financial benefit for ordinary Scots. ” needn’t be in opposition to ” Nation, culture, people, freedom. ” . I don’t why anyone thinks it’s a choice between the two
@John Main 8.33 am
I’m not sure if there’s recent polling on it, but from memory when asked the majority of Scots supported the monarchy, even in the event of independence. Whether that will hold true at the time of independence remains to be seen. I have a sense – though in truth that is all it is of course, just my personal feeling – that if we see independence in the short to medium term, a plebiscite on whether to become a republic or a monarchy would probably opt for the former.
At least in a republic our fellow countrymen and women would be pledging allegiance to someone they had (hopefully?) elected rather than someone “born to rule”. I’d be quite happy with an Irish type Presidency.
Robert Hughes says:
9 September, 2022 at 7:42 am
No disrespect to Alex , he’ll always be a priceless asset , but if ALBA has any sense they would elect Eva as leader – the contrast in honesty , commitment and character between her and I , Me , My Sturgeon….
I hear ya, but I dunno…. In the not too distant future, I think there’s going to be a coming together…. Whether it’s SALVO’s Congress, or the rebooted Convention of the Estates, or an all-party and none initiative to fight as YES in a plebiscite.
I can see a lot of Leadership opportunities in my wee crystal ball, and as a lawyer too, maybe Eva can finish what Joanna Cherry started… Though I still hope whatever can be salvaged from the SNP to augment this coming together, because we need it to happen, so I can see Cherry’s influence on the rise too…
The exasperating unknown variable is how we ditch Sturgeon. Someone mentions we have another open goal ahead where MP’s swear an oath to the new Monarch. An opportunity for political rebellion, but we pretty much know our gravy train Toom Tabards won’t want to cause a fuss, nevermind a rebellion.
I’m not down on ALBA at all, but we need to step up from “user” level politics to “super user” level Constitutional and International politics. It’s something YES-like, but with constitutional clout, liberation group status with the UN, and popular sovereignty in it’s back pocket.
“I fail to see your point”
My point is that the free, independent, sovereign, “Kingdom of Scotland” as you style it, was, for over 100 years pre-dating 1707, a constitutional monarchy, with the reigning monarch sitting in London.
Surely a simple point to grasp.
Surely a simple point to understand that the issues of today’s Scotland as potentially a free, independent, sovereign country, and today’s Scotland as potentially a republic, are completely separate issues.
The insistent linking of Indy, republicanism, and indeed EU membership, by some on here, is explicable only by the realisation that carpet-baggers are at work.
The insistent linking of these three essentially unrelated questions is IMO, partly to blame for the glacial growth in support for Indy.
Andy Ellis
Agreed.
As per my previous post, some on here insist on conflating separate issues.
Vote Yes for Indy (BTW, you also get a Republic and Brussels rule) doesn’t work with some Scots.
Hi George Ferguson at 10:57 pm.
You suggested,
“So we would prefer our forces to swear allegiance to Nicola Sturgeon?”
You may prefer that scenario – I certainly don’t. I would hope that the constitution of iScotland would specify an elected head of state, a “President” or “Guardian of Sovereignty”, elected for one 5 year term. Furthermore, I would suggest that a condition of standing for election to that office would be that the candidate is not, and never has been, a member of a political party.
From earlier in the year.
“Fewer than half of Scots support keeping monarchy”
link to archive.ph
And the SNP choosing to support the minority view…
@John Main 8.59 am
The insistent linking of these three essentially unrelated questions is IMO, partly to blame for the glacial growth in support for Indy.
I think that’s very unlikely. I know your have an axe to grind WRT the EU, but I don’t think the linking of republicanism versus constitutional monarchy and the EU membership versus splendid isolation (or indeed NATO versus neutrality) really figure on most people’s radar. Whatever folks views on each issue, I doubt many would make their support for indy conditional on an independent Scotland choosing their preferred option on each issue.
As you keep pointing out, “it’s the economy stupid”. Convince enough persuadable voters that the cost benefit analysis now favours independence, and it’s a done deal. The dyed in the wool pros and antis aren’t going to change their views. It’s another reason of course not to “frighten the horses” by paying too much heed or pandering to fringe groups espousing quick fixes and insisting that we MUST ensure an independent Scotland is made in their image.
The Scottish people will decide what their new state looks like on their own timetable, taking in to account the circumstances at the time it happens. Those insisting we must lock in to becoming a republic, or remain outside NATO or outside the EU because that’s what their personal politics dictate may find themselves with rather less popular support than they imagine.
With regards to events in the East… confusion and conflicting stories, but the “U” advance seems to be contained.
R’s claiming it was lightly defended / police only zone that fell, (point is it fell), but lots of morale boosting “U”footage of blowing-uppy stuff… only problem there is a lot of this footage uploaded 3+ days ago, so could not be from yesterday.
Take time for the truth to emerge.
John Main…
“My point is that the free, independent, sovereign, “Kingdom of Scotland” as you style it, was, for over 100 years pre-dating 1707, a constitutional monarchy, with the reigning monarch sitting in London.”
It’s not how “I style it”, a spade is a spade whatever way you look at it, and the Kingdom of Scotland was a “constitutional monarchy ” before the personal union between Scotland and England in 1603, or did you think that James VI, King of Scots, spent his days attending to his embroidery prior to his becoming King James I of England and Ireland?
As I said in my post, when James VI up’d sticks and moved to London and began to converse in the Inglis tongue, very little else changed. He even visited his norn kinrick after moving abroad, albeit just the once and barely across the border on that occasion.
Does the fact that the Head of State of Canada and the same Head of State of Australia sit in London somehow diminish the status of either? You’d need to ask them I suppose…
But as my favourite radio talk show host says, “what’s your point caller?”
John Main,
I think everyone would like to be better off, however there is something distasteful about holding your country to ransom, but perhaps they don’t really see it as their country.
There are some people who will never vote for an independent Scotland come Hell or high water, (see Jim Hood) they will simply use wilful ignorance and perfidious financial arguments to justify their position.
These financial aspects of there argument are shown up as a one way street, there is no concern in reverse.
Yet, there are some who may be genuinely worried about their future and would like assurances that an independent Scotland is a better path (not utopia) just a better path.
These people can be convinced, perhaps with the help of some sort of monetary gain, but I would say not only.
The group of ‘what’s in it for me’ will only be convinced if there it is an imminent or immediate gain as greed has the side effect of turning them into short-termists,
There’s nothing wrong with wanting more but everything has a price but not necessarily, and often not calculated in coinage.
Perhaps for some, selling Scotland, once again for English gold, is not an agreeable concept.
JOHN MAIN would seem to wish a return to Scotland’s pre union status, personal monarchy and all.
Clocks all stopped in his house?
” Though I still hope whatever can be salvaged from the SNP to augment this coming together, because we need it to happen, so I can see Cherry’s influence on the rise too…”
Hmmm ….I hope so too B , but Joanna needs to stop playing the old WM * joanna * – all those dud keys make for a discordant melody – and decide what her priorities are . If she’s holding-on for the Post Sturgeon dispensation ( allowing her to rise ) she may be in for long wait .
Unless there’s some mechanism to prevent the handing of the Royal Seal to faithful retainer , Master of the Bedpan aka Angush Son of Robert .I don’t think there is such a mechanism
BREASTPLATE
The «venal», what’s in it for me type of independence «supporters» should be noted but not indulged. They are decidedly the weakest link.
John Main says:
9 September, 2022 at 8:06 am
@Scott says:9 September, 2022 at 1:23 am
“Until Charles swears the Coronation Oath he has no authority in Scotland, per Claim of Right Act 1689”
Indeed.
And we can all take a mo to ponder the obverse of that statement.
—
Why not take a mo to ponder the point I was actually making…?
ie Until he swears the Coronation Oath, the Parliament in England has no authority to rule over Scotland, per Claim of Right Act 1689.
Mark Boyle says:
9 September, 2022 at 12:45 am
Oh well, at least there’s some news to cheer us all up:
link to telegraph.co.uk
Ho ho ho, nae luck Iain. Biggest news story in seventy years just breaks, and you don’t get to write some sycophantic soliloquy in the Rangers Fanzine ‘cos you’ve blotted your copybook big time – clearly the post-football depression took its toll on your decision making.
That link only good for those who subscribe to the Telepraph.
I’m wondering if the reason for MacWhirter’s suspension is more to do with what he said about Sturgeon’s not proven verdict.
If Scottish political representatives swear allegiance to the new monarch would they be in breach of Scotlands claim of right and constitution and therefore liable to the penalties held within those articles.
We the Scots are after all sovereign.
wullie says:
9 September, 2022 at 10:46 am
If Scottish political representatives swear allegiance to the new monarch would they be in breach of Scotlands claim of right and constitution and therefore liable to the penalties held within those articles.
—
No
“And that the Oath hereafter mentioned by taken by all protestants of whom the oath of allegiance and any other oathes and Declarationes might be required by law instead of them And that the said oath of Allegiance and other oaths and Declarationes may be abrogated
I A : B : Do sincerly promise and swear That I will be faithfull and bear true allegiance to their Majesties King William and Queen Mary So help me God”
link to legislation.gov.uk
Does anyone have a spare remote island with a cave that I could rent for six months?
WULLIE
«we the Scots are after all sovereign».
The apparatus of the British state, the kingdom of England continuing, begs to differ.
The current event indicates, graphically, how marginal and unimportant Scotland is within the structure. A situation for which only Scots may be held accountable.
The sentimentaliity, the systemic fawning and toadying, the maudlin acquiescence on display over the last 24hours from all quarters in Scotland is telling.
link to twitter.com
Iain Macwhirter
@iainmacwhirter
Replying to
@ianssmart
Indeed. She’s still smarting over Salmond’s acquittal. Perhaps she’ll get Lady Dorian to retry him.
10:10 PM · Sep 6, 2022
Shame that MacWhirter has to work for the MSM. I think he might be a good journalist if given the freedom.
I think his point about a coconut cabinet was a very good one.
I doubt very much if the billionaires in the Tory Gov have very much in common with your average black man.
Black on the outside but hard core Tory billionaire on the inside.
The others are
White Peaches white on the outside with a heart of stone & zero in common with your average white man.
I can’t see what difference it makes if someone is black or white.
What’s the big issue about a diverse parliament based on skin colour?
Luigi says:
9 September, 2022 at 11:06 am
Does anyone have a spare remote island with a cave that I could rent for six months?
Sorry I can’t help with the remote island or cave but I do have a suggestion to make which could be the next best thing. UNPLUG YOUR TV!
If you live in Edinburgh perhaps think of taking a couple days out of town. There’s going to be the 24hour laying to rest in St Giles.
FYI in case your are interested:
It’s only laying to rest in St Giles the laying in state will take place in London.
Monarchy…really such fun!
link to austenasia.com
An Englishman’s home is his suburban Ruritania.
Those whom work wise, are employed by the British state in the British state devolved government of Holyrood Placed in Scotland by the Westminster Government would be obliged to swear and oath to the Crown and Westminster as their employer.
‘Does anyone have a remote island?’
You could try Gruinard. If you get fed up and want to leave, perhaps you could make a raft out of disused Anthrax canisters.
Westminster debated wether to allow a devolved government in Scotland.
Once the decided yes, Westminster passed the Legislation and the Scotland Act,
Westminster decided what would be reserved matter to hold back from the Scottish devolved government.
Westminster decided the Barnett formula.
Westminster decided wether to allow the first referendum.
The concept of the devolved government came from westminster.
Holyrood is a westminster branch office, nothing more, paid to be a kicking stone in Scotland.
A devolved from Westminster regional administration office,
Speaking of remote islands , does anyone remember the leopard man who lived on a Scottish island – can’t remember which one.
He was tattooed from head to foot with leopard markings and died a few years ago I think. I think he was English but could be wrong.
Hi Dorothy D.
link to secretscotland.org.uk
Scott says:
geez they think up any old waffle to baffle the populace. The claim of right and Scotlands constitution has been in existence for hundreds of years before all that old oathy garbage. I can only presume that all those Scotty types who swear allegiance to any crown are committing treason.
The Scottish people are soveriegn its the law
link to bbc.co.uk
No need to read Gaelic to notice the glaring historic howler.
Truly, it IS all in the detail.
wullie says:
9 September, 2022 at 12:37 pm
Scott says:
geez they think up any old waffle to baffle the populace. The claim of right and Scotlands constitution has been in existence for hundreds of years before all that old oathy garbage. I can only presume that all those Scotty types who swear allegiance to any crown are committing treason.
—
I quoted the Claim of Right Act 1689…yw,hth
Dorothy Devine says:
9 September, 2022 at 12:07 pm
Speaking of remote islands , does anyone remember the leopard man who lived on a Scottish island – can’t remember which one.
He was tattooed from head to foot with leopard markings and died a few years ago I think. I think he was English but could be wrong.
Mornin’ Dorothy!
I initially thought you were referring to the ex Labour leader but then I don’t think he was covered in tattoos
Is this the guy:
link to archive.ph
That is very sad. Time spent in the military can often have a detrimental effect on your mental health.
Do you remember the guy who insisted on walking naked all over Scotland and kept getting arrested? I think he was nick-named The Naked Rambler.
Then there’s the world’s most pierced woman who stands outside St Giles. Will she be moved on during the 24 laying to rest? Apparently she wasn’t given a licence to be there during the fringe.
What happened to Nicola’s proposed ‘Masters of the Universe’ meeting to tackle the winter crisis? Has the new PM’s demonstration of real power put an end to the grandstanding?
Her vast selfie collection will always feel like it’s a few short.
Oh well, Nicola, I’m sure there will be another crisis along soon (and you’ll find a few people daft enough to think your opinion on it actually matters).
1-0 to Truss after just a few minutes.
Stephen Gough
Stephen Peter Gough (born 13 May 1959), popularly known as the “Naked Rambler”, is a British pro-nudity activist and former Royal Marine.
Another ex-service man.
World’s most pierced woman has 6,925 piercings
link to tinyurl.com
Elaine Davidson C is a Brazilian former nurse, based in Edinburgh who Guinness World Records has certified as the “Most Pierced Woman”.
link to archive.ph
“SNP tell members to stop all political campaigning after Queen’s death”.
In other words, carry on as normal.
Boyle will love this one
link to msn.com
-I just have better perception than you fud. Wasn’t hard looking at telly and the glum faces when they were entering Balmoral.
Boyle – must try harder et trolling.
John Main @8:33 am
As corrupt as Scots postal voting has been, unless and to extent there’s been regicide on Scottish soil within 28 days of a snake oil booster, she’s not likely to need to rescue a democratic republic by doing a Trump anytime soon.
Less controversial, and of more immediate benefit, might be if her party is able to demonstrate enough consistency in its pro feminist declarations (women only lists etc) to enforce matrilineal accession* and, depending on KCIII’s long term views on lording it over Westminster from the foot of Arthur’s seat, backdate it to declare Anne as Queen of Scots in enough time to prevent next year’s coronation interfering with the (defacto redundant) indyref2.
*via urgent referendum if necessary
?
Wullie,
They have colonised the treaty of union as if belonging to Westminster, British government, However they are only meant to be the protectors of the treaty of union in its original format, for Scotland and Englands old parliaments
When the British Government breached that treaty in 1708, basically everything came to a standstill, interfering in Scots law.
They had breached it again when [ they decided] to reform obsolete Laws of Scotland that Westminster could not understand,
They breached it again when they, [ Westminster] did away with burghs in Scotland,
They breached the treaty again when the taxed Scotlands population different from England population with the poll tax,
They Breach it every time English laws overlay Scots law since 1707 through the devolved government, as the devolved government is in fact a construction of the later created British parliament, which results in subordinate governments not mentioned as a agreement in the articles of the treaty of union,
The Cannibalisation of the treaty of union by the British parliament which leaves little for Scotland to recognise as original can be seen clearly when you consider the sharing of trade revenues and rewards from oil,
There is a silver lining On the up side though,
If Westminster refuses the devolved parliament the right to self determination, it is no skin of our nose. For it IS their own branch office they refuse.
For treaties to be recognised they have to be seen as voluntary,
Scots people were never asked if they want to join the 1707 treaty of the union. In fact 99.9 % still have NOT been asked to this present day.
On the Basis that the Scottish parliament were not Sovereign to act or enter into the treaty of union between Scotland and england since 1686/9 Claim of Right for Scots.
If the argument that less than a hundred men can decide to enter into a treaty of union, then it takes less than a hundred men to [ Exit for themselves]. ( not the Sovereign Scottish nation and Country)
The Celtic road to Fascism.
link to spiked-online.com
Repression with a song and a dance.
@John Main 8:33pm
The original article by Chris as a commentary on events is well written. Just the last bit on what to do next. But anybody who has the courage to stand up at an SNP conference gets the thumbs up from me. Scotland is politically constipated and until the SNP are rejected at the ballot box I see very little progress being made. In fact the opposite, I am in the camp that says Code Red Alert. Head of State, EU, Nato are topics that need a wide airing and public discussion. Instead we get from the SNP ‘Dae as yer telt’. On the subject of economics, ambition, competence and social migration has reduced to low levels. It could take many years to restore them.
Brilliant Brian – thanks!
Ruby the most pierced woman is a new one to me.
The 1689 Claim of right handed Scots their Sovereignty from the Three Estates.
That is in Scotland the monarch is not above the Law of Scotland or its people since 1689.
In 1707 the Three Estates were not The Holders of Scottish Sovereignty, nor was the monarch.
When they all entered into the the Treaty of the union with England it was as individual Business traders and a monarch, neither of which Sovereign in Scotland.
The Sovereign Scots never entered into the treaty of union with Englands parliament.
A big elephant in the treaty of union,
No one can or does provide a date or documents of when the Sovereign Scots were invited to join the treaty of the union, only heresay and propaganda,
The only evidence we have either way that Englands 1706/7 parliament realised that the Scots people had not joined the treaty of the union and were separate from the Three Scottish Estates.
Is the moment they record holding a debate in Westminster on wether to ask the Scots to have a vote to join the treaty of the union,
The old English parliament records that it decided not to put the vote to the Scots, because they would problably vote against joining.
Controversial enough to doubt wether the Scots ever joined the 1707 treaty of the union.
«Everything else about the first minister’s career points to her preference for a republican future for Scotland.
Whether the country agrees with that is something to be revealed in due course. Nevertheless, Her Majesty’s death is the end of one story and might yet be seen as the starting point for another»
link to archive.ph
May it be republican.
I see there’s yet more gibberish from James Cheyne/James Che/James che/James Che.
Still, it beats reading on the bird app all the birthday caird pish about how mournful I am that the former Queen is deid.
Scott.
Tell us all when and what date 99.9 % of Scots voted to join the treaty of the union in 1707.
I am all for you correcting it with accurate info.
Thats one thing we do like on wings over Scotland
Not the pull the ” wool o’er yer eyes less than 100 men, and a monarch that is not sovereign in Scotland.”
Neither were from 1689 onwards as you said.
But all of us would be interested when the Sovereign Scots [that Westminster left out in 1706/07 ] joined,
What month and year was that.?
@James Che
You are by your own admission an “amateur” in these matters, who despite purportedly having read and researched extensively on the subject, still can’t come up with a coherent explanation of why anyone should give your “hot take” on constitutional history, early modern Scottish and English history, and constitutional and legal theory the time of day.
Of course, this isn’t helped by your obvious difficulties with language (which isn’t me “having a go” at anyone with disabilities by the way, just an honest assessment that the lack of clarity in the language of your posts and contributions, the fact they are so badly worded and expressed often renders them virtually incomprehensible).
To top things off of course, you can’t point to any support for your “hot take” on what passes for your argument from any subject matter expert in any of the relevant fields, (or indeed have any engage with your puerile input) probably because its utter bollocks of course, but why you feel the Cameron Brodie-esque need to spam BTL comments here ad nauseam with the same, unsupported badly expressed non-argument virtually EVERY day is beyond most of us.
We get it. You don’t think the Treaty of Union is real. Virtually everyone else thinks your argument is nonsense and thinks your a tiresome crank.
“We get it. You don’t think the Treaty of Union is real. Virtually everyone else thinks your argument is nonsense and thinks your (sic) a tiresome crank.” – Ellis (the same Ellis who often bleats that ToU & Acts of Union are irrelevant today)
Hahahaha…what a fanny.
@Ellis (4.23) –
Please don’t start again with the personal pish.
You were warned along with the rest of us not to do it. And yet here we are. You just can’t help yourself.
The rules apply to all of us – you’re not exceptional, so either wind it in or fuck off.
@Brotherhood
It was a (probably vain) attempt to avoid the place going the same way it did in the days of the late unlamented Cameron Brodie. I’m hardly alone in thinking his input is repetitive and distracting.
Then again I didn’t call him a fanny or ask him to fuck off either, we had to wait for the usual suspects for that, huh?
@Ellis (5.10) –
If Rev is true to his word then you and I should both now be locked.
I really don’t mind as I don’t have much to say right now about anything but it would be great to get your toxic input frozen if only for a wee while.
Ellis YOU and your fellow GRUMBLERS are the ones who are tiresome cranks , you have raised your usual” most people or the vast majority” pish again and again , NAME THESE others that you know what they are thinking , I would rather read James Che’s comments than your self opinionated pub bore drivel
YOU have asked Ruby and others “Who appointed you the site moderator ” I ask YOU the same thing ,this isn’t your site no matter what you think so fuck off with your insults
Stand by marky Mark will be online soon 3, 2 ,1
@Brotherhood
The Rev is famed for liking folk telling him what to do right enough. Interesting that your animus is directed against me but not as “Scott”. Whether the generality of folk think my input is toxic I’ll leave up to them to make their own minds up on.
The quality of the BTL discourse certainly improved for the absence of the usual suspects up thread. That in itself tells us a whole lot.
Twathater
And Scott,
Thanks for some support,
The thing is for those that say the people of Scotland are Sovereign, ithe claim of write is wrote down and recorded as so.
The second problem is, the unsupported claim that the…….( Scots as a 99.9 percent majority)……
of Scotland can not be found on record as joining the treaty of union 1707 after Westminster
Decided not to give the Scots a vote to join. An as it states in 2022 in UK parliament site]
We have discussed this before Andy, but as smart as you claim you are,
You have blustered over providing the date the majority of Scots voted to join the treaty of the union after 1707 when westminster said No to a vote.
I think at this point in the debate if you cannot produce any confirmation date of month or year fo oppose my constitutional history.
Yours theory would hold as much Fable as mine. And you’re not dyslexic,
James Che said;
“The 1689 Claim of right handed Scots their Sovereignty from the Three Estates.”
“That is in Scotland the monarch is not above the Law of Scotland or its people since 1689.”
Sorry, James, these are simply not true; the 1689 Claim of Right merely re-affirmed the already existing sovereignty of the Scots, and that the monarch has been subject to the law and constitution of Scotland and answerable to the sovereign people for centuries. That was clearly recognised by Robert the Bruce in 1320.
The Convention of the Estates in 1689 only put those statements into the CoR as a preamble to justify what it did next, which was to depose King James the VII and then appoint King William to the Scottish throne.
The Three Estates were what constituted the Scottish parliament, but the Claim of Right was passed by the Convention of the Estates, a different body.
As for the rest, I’m afraid if you think the Scottish and English commissioners could negotiate a treaty, and both parliaments ratify it and nobody noticed that it took only the Scottish parliament and Scotland into the Union with England but Scotland’s people were left out on the moors to fend for themselves, then you have simply misunderstood how things worked in those days. Representative popular democracy did not exist in anything like its modern form.
Looking at such events from the perspective of 300+ years later, we will miss much that was taken for granted then as popular knowlege and understanding of the political and legal ways of those times, and especially the religious aspects that were far more in your face than they are today. Politics was thoroughly intertwined with religion in those days, and political theology had real force.
Our government of the day took us into the Union, and from that point on we were deprived of the means to do anything much about it short of violence, and we tried that more than once, and those occasions didn’t go went well.
We are where we are now, and that’s the reality we have to deal with.
@James Che 6.22 pm
You have blustered over providing the date the majority of Scots voted to join the treaty of the union after 1707 when westminster said No to a vote.
No, I haven’t blustered I’ve just ignored your statement for the irrelevance it undoubtedly is. I’ve asked you to provide any link or support for your take on the matter from subject matter experts, any discussion on it in journals, conferences and the like. If there is some, surely your reading would have turned it up and yu’d be able to reference it?
If not, folk are just liable to apply the Rev Stu’s famous “some arsehole doctrine” .
Before the internet, if you were just Some Arsehole whose views were plainly of no significant consequence to anyone you’d have to go to the trouble of scrawling a letter in green ink onto the flayed-off skin of a rabbit, putting a stamp on it and walking to the Post Office or a pillarbox to send it to the Daily Mail by hand, where at most it’d get stuck away in a corner of the Letters page (or as it’s often called by world-weary sub-editors, “the freakshow”) unnoticed by anyone.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Over to you….
If Alex Massie, in the Times, is correct and Ms Sturgeon is republican let her declare the preference to the electorate. Dissimulation is an SNP, and wider Scottish, bad habit.
Time for honesty, firmness of purpose and an end to pussyfooting and childish games of dare with bully boys.
Real politics, real leadership and a readiness to go for the jugular is better than popularity among a constituency of wimps.
What are we trying trying to get independence from………?
The treaty of the union.
So it should be one of the main subjects on a site that supports Scottish independence.
Why not pull the treaty of union apart, to see where fact meets fiction.
That would be the intelligent thing to do.
Sort that out and perhaps we can kiss goodbye to the NuSnp.
The devolved government,
the referendum question.
For those that keep harping on about needing a majority of Scots to vote.
It is amazing that those same people never wonder where the majority of Scots were that voted in 1707.
Nice Bloodhound Gang ref in the title. Drinking and punk (and any combo thereof) fans need to see this new doc:
link to whorattledyourcage.blogspot.com
Ellis and Main.
Fuck off ya perra borin pedant bastards.
I don’t think this can be described as “feeding the Trolls”,,,,more like showing these perra pricks where the exit door is.
Xaracen.
Much appreciate you defining the Scots Claim of Right origins,
However I am repeating this as much from 300 years ago as today from the UK british parliament site in 2022.
It States, “It [Westminster debated in 1707 wether to give the Scots a vote to join the union in 1707, but decided not to progress or proceed as the Scots would probably Vote against it.”
Westminster were well aware of the principles of voting in 1707 and that the Scots should have had a vote on wether to join in 1707 just by that Statement and discussion held in 1707. And repeated in 2022.
And therefore the view can be held that Westminster even as far back as 1707 was withholding the democratic vote for Scots.
The other interesting demographic from that UK parliament statement, is that
Westminster did not consider the Scots as the Three Estates or vice versa. But as separate groups,
Not one and the same when it came to voting demographics.
Which ever way it is said Westminster at that time was well aware of democracy and a vote
Andy.
The asrseh..le link and information can be found on Uk parliament site 2022. Thats your link.
If this dyslexic person can find it, I am sure you can,
If not I suggested a few people copy it as it may come in handy later on later on when talking about majority votes.
just in case you missed the link.
IT IS WROTE DOWN ON UK PARLIAMENT SITE.
@Oneliner 12:01
Gruinard was decontaminated in 1990. Not sure if you knew that.
Perfectly safe and legal to land there and explore, although you will need your own boat (or be a strong swimmer).
Best not to hang about though. Your “right to roam” might be again cancelled on a legislative whim, should Covid become popular one more.
Looks like btl here is in mourning…
Oh well.
Where’s me rosary beads?
🙁
I can’t believe they’ve cancelled the weekend football…
Jeeez
Received an email from For Women Scotland today saying
“We are sorry to announce that the rally at the Scottish Parliament, planned for the 15th September, has been postponed. the Parliament is currently suspended and all events outside are cancelled until 20th September, meaning that our rally cannot go ahead.”
It is unbelievable that these politicians who don’t give a shit about our people and the suffering they are facing from these corrupt governments are all suddenly overcome with grief at the death of one elderly woman , yet there were thousands of elderly people died in care homes due to the total mismanagement of both governments and instead of mourning them or showing some form of compassion or empathy to the bereaved those same politicians were partying and defying their own laws
twathater says:
10 September, 2022 at 2:44 am
It is unbelievable that these politicians who don’t give a shit about our people and the suffering they are facing from these corrupt….
It doesn’t cost anything to be a wee bit respectful towards the death of anybody, but 10 days of mourning is a bit rich from well paid politicians, especially allegedly “Nationalist” politicians who are mostly bone idle at the best of times, and have developed a do-nothing reputation all by themselves.
If it’s good enough for them to take time off, why not everybody? Why not bus drivers? Why not shop assistants?
Politicians increasingly give me the dry boak. There is a dwindling core of politicians whom I respect these days.
At least the Yestival on the 18th is still going ahead. And credit too to Comedian Kevin Bridges, who is currently being vilified for the heresay of going ahead with his show. Don’t listen to headlines either, I didn’t even find his comments near the knuckle. A little irreverent, but he’s a comedian, that’s his job.
I don’t have a TV anyway so I’m spared the crocodile tears.
I clicked on my e-mails to discover that the Co-op has a message of condolence to the RF and Argos has a photo and their condolences too, the Guardian continues to plaster its front page and TV seems to think we are all interested in what anybody and everybody thinks – is there anyone not jumping on a band wagon of faux grief?
10 days of this and a few of us will be slitting our wrists.
@Breeks (6.13) –
Tommy Sheridan tweeted yesterday that the organisers are determined that HOF Yestival will go ahead as planned, aye, but the council could yet pull the rug – it’s their shout.
@ Breeks
Aye, it’s utterly ridiculous that in the middle of so many “crises” caused / engineered by politicians, that they think it appropriate for everyone to just down tools to mourn when so many folk and businesses are struggling to get by now, let alone this winter when higher energy bills hit home.
And there was me naively thinking politicians were elected to represent the people and to lead us, not leave us to endure all the shite they created.
Ach, maybe oor generous Queen has left all her citizens a cash bung in her will to help ease the poverty and suffering caused by her Governments…
As if the media arent bad enough (I dont buy or read or watch, but see the headlines on social media) lots of local businesses are joining in the wailing and howling. I bet many of them are the same people who wailed and cried and laid flowers when Diana died at the behest of this evil, greedy old woman. Short memories. I feel like decking my van out in bunting and ribbons and pics of champagne glasses filled to the brim! With a huge YES in the middle.
This isnt some sweet old lady, this is a woman who ordered her daughter-in-law to be murdered, who paid millions to keep her sleazy pervert son out of prison, who begged ordinary, struggling people to pay her energy bills for her various palaces while being one of the wealthiest women in the world, who had a racist husband and a nazi mother with a bad reputation among her staff. She was a nasty piece of work who also interfered with our indy ref in 2014 in spite of claiming to be non-political. And she signed the various bills that have led directly to the coming deaths due to hypothermia and starvation of those she swore at her coronation to protect.
I dont suppose there is any movement on the independence front, is there? Come on Salvo, SSRG, give us some light and hope in the middle of this mass mourning hysteria.
@John Main 8.59 pm
Best not to hang about though. Your “right to roam” might be again cancelled on a legislative whim, should Covid become popular one more.
Those concerned about the (lack of?) ability of the sovereign Scottish people to protect itself, or indeed to assert its legitimate rights, in the face of an overweening Westminster parliament which relies on and asserts the primacy of its claim of parliamentary sovereignty, Might be interested in the attached discussion “in a Handful of Dust” on the German Verfassungsblog which deals with “things constitutional”.
While we are rightly concerned about the more immediate aim of securing independence and how that is done, it also behoves us to take note of what sort of “better nation” we aim to design, and how we ensure a separation and balance of powers to prevent an over-mighty individual or indeed party from overturning the constitutional order.
Although the discussion in the piece concentrates on case studies of the German and French systems, and recent case studies which have “stress tested” the extent to which both very different systems would be able to resist a modern autocratic takeover, the same principles would apply to those responsible for designing the constitution of a new Scottish state, and defining the checks and balances involved.
link to verfassungsblog.de
This morning Charles Mountbatten Windsor or whatever, is declared king of Ukania.
At this moment i declare Scotland an independent and popularly sovereign Scots Republic/Poblachd na h-Alba….
Well, somebody has got to take the initiative, however symbolic.
WAKE UP SCOTLAND…the Rip Van Winkel of Europe, the World, the Solar System, The Milky Way etc
A decent read. There’s no btl comment facility on that article so will state here: Keep doing what you do Robin, Common Weal’s and your efforts are appreciated.
link to robinmcalpine.org
ANDY ELLIS 08:55
Good try…not sure what those EU values are? And as for defending oligarch ruled «Ukrain» as a matter of such «values». No thanks.
Have personally little time for heads of state, substitute tinpot monarchs the lot of them.
The French have a system designed around one man’s attempt to bring order to a fractious country, it ought to have died with him. Alas we have Macron, no De Gaulle he.
As for the US, the totemic monarchless monarchy it simply confirms my prejudicd that
that politics of politicians is no fit job for a gentleman.
Scotland might restart zero.
But first one might need to educate the citizenry in the basic principles, but basic principles according to whom?
Let good Scots skepticism prevail on that one.
@Fionan 8:52
“Diana died at the behest of this evil, greedy old woman”
An absolute masterpiece of a comment, and setting a stellar bar that surely no other poster will be able to top.
A round of applause for Fionan, who has cut short the hand feeding of Nessie and let the haggis herd out of their coop early, in order to engage briefly with the real world.
Well done Fionan, but it’s a fine day to paint that coop tartan, chop chop now!
Devine Dorothy
I enjoyed my usual Friday feast of Outback Car Hunters, Kindig Customs, followed by a dessert of Family Guy and American Dad.
Braw.
WTF TV do you watch?
Remote broke, or just too complicated for you to fathom out?
@Dan 9:08
Thanks for the link. Keep them coming.
As a defence against the all-out assault on our patience , equanimity and sanity being waged by the Royalist Sycophant Army aka The Greetin Cavaliers + The Windsor Proctologist Militia ( did you know on 15 August 1958 QE2 had a boiled egg for breakfast ? ) supported by Air , Land and Sea MSM bombardment – I’ve adopted a strategy of guerrilla resistance .
First priority . Cut ALL lines of BBC communication . VITAL !
When entering a location that might contain newspapers , wear dark glasses to avoid being blinded by the shite
Lay conversation mines set to detonate if certain word are said eg Sad . Loss . Corgi etc
Avoid Social Media!! The forces of Ersatz Emotion are crawling all over it .
Trust no one . Even family and friends . Psyops are in play , capable of rendering even formerly rational people into lip-trembling imbeciles .
The struggle will be long and arduous my friends : we can – must – prevail .
VIVA LA EVOLUTION !
Alex salmond at Privy Council meeting just now??
Ottomanboi
It’s simples. Sending tanks across an international border to seize a country’s stuff and kill its people is wrong.
Scots need to get this right in their heids. One day, it could be our border that is crossed, our stuff seized, and our people killed.
Best we have a solid track record of being on the right side against imperialist, colonialist aggression.
I think I will take a drive out to Muir of Ord to buy some chips.
also.
link to uk.news.yahoo.com
John Main says:
10 September, 2022 at 9:33 am
@Fionan 8:52
“Diana died at the behest of this evil, greedy old woman”
An absolute masterpiece of a comment, and setting a stellar bar that surely no other ROASTER will be able to top.
FTFY 😀
Nicola Sturgeon signs Accession document at Privy Council on behalf of Scotland approving Charles as King in Scotland.
What chance do we have with this nonsense?
Nae fitba but don’t worry, the Test match and horse racing go ahead.
A nation united in grief mourns…
Come over here Irony , let me give you a big kiss …
My wife – more wreckless than me – is watching the BBC coverage of King Chic 3 being , whatever it is , inaugurated or some such palaver , in the course of which he refers to Scotland’s Claim Of Right – with ALEX SALMOND PRESENT !
All those so quick to dismiss the relevance of the CoR should perhaps take note .
This would be a perfect opportunity for the SNP to highlight this * concession * IN BOLD TYPE . Of course , they won’t . They’ll squander the opportunity , like every other that’s been handed to them on a plate .
They’ll no doubt to too busy getting fitted-out for the big Monarchical Love-In .
Makes a change from fitting-up I suppose
Everyone who talks about Claim of Right should look at our FM calmy refusing to enact it by signing it away with a pen.
She has just accepted a Monarch on behalf of Scotland without consulting the people about their suitability.
Claim of right is technically dead.
” What chance do we have with this nonsense? ”
Z.E.R.O
I wonder what it would be like here if Andy Ellis, John Main, Mark Boyle & Chas got their way and they were the only people who posted here would they start attacking one another?
The only thing they seem to do is attack others I’ve yet to see them post something original.
Even if someone cracks a joke they have to point out that you got your facts wrong in the joke. LOL
ie
John Main says:
9 September, 2022 at 8:59 pm
@Oneliner 12:01
Gruinard was decontaminated in 1990. Not sure if you knew that.
It was a joke! The clue is in the user name.
Sturgeon signing away Scotland again when she has no right too.
Bob Mack @ 10.48
Alex Salmond tweeted this morning ….
” In any event, it can hardly be argued that the Claim of Right is merely a historical curiosity, when one of the first acts of the new King is to be required to swear an oath to uphold it! This is the sort of history which can shape the future (7/7). “
Yes Robert,I saw that. However what an opportunity to tell the whole world you could not sign without the approval of the Scottish people.
She did not have the courage of her apparent convictions.
So the Act of Union, the Claim of Right lives. Charles no less said so this very morning. Right slab bang at the forefront of proceedings
And here we all were for years and years and years that the Act of Union, Claim of Right was defunct, ancient history, and of no relevance.
You can fool some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time.
I know it’s kinda stereotyping, but don’t you think Charlie looks Irish? He’d suit a jolly Irish accent.
Where’s RoS?
Surely if she/ her / oor First Minster is such a democrat and genuinely represents the expressed sovereign will of the Scottish people, then there would need to be a legitimate mandate from said Scots confirming and instructing her to accept this new monarch on oor behalf.
Bob Mack says:
10 September, 2022 at 11:11 am
” Yes Robert,I saw that. However what an opportunity to tell the whole world you could not sign without the approval of the Scottish people.
She did not have the courage of her apparent convictions.”
Absolutely , Bob . We know there was never the slightest chance Sturgeon would do that : having recently declared her Britishness , plus , generally being a useless fraud whose sole skill is turning advantages into handicaps : The Anodyne Alchemist – TRANSmuting political gold into base metal ie scrap
As we’ve said again n again ……Nothing – good – CAN happen until she’s gone
Robert Hughes says:
10 September, 2022 at 11:02 am
Bob Mack @ 10.48
Alex Salmond tweeted this morning ….
” In any event, it can hardly be argued that the Claim of Right is merely a historical curiosity, when one of the first acts of the new King is to be required to swear an oath to uphold it! This is the sort of history which can shape the future (7/7). “
I find everything Alex Salmond says of great interest on the other hand what Sturgeon says of zero interest.
I can’t say I full understand what the ‘Claim of Right’ actually is and I expect that would be the same for many others.
Wouldn’t it be great if those ie Andy Ellis, Mark Boyle, John Main & Chas who claim to be so much more educated & knowledgeable than everyone else took their time to try and inform others instead of just attacking & name calling.
Robert Hughes says:
10 September, 2022 at 11:28 am
As we’ve said again n again ……Nothing – good – CAN happen until she’s gone
It’s not just Sturgeon it’s every single SNP politician and that includes the so called ‘good guys’
Maybe ‘Wee Ginger Dug’ should be added to that list.
Hi Ruby .
Yes , it would . Those you mention are clearly intelligent , articulate individuals , it would also be great if they – and we , were all pulling in the same direction . Not necessarily agreeing with everything being mooted , just maybe a little less hostile .
I have no idea if emphasising historical artefacts like the CoR will prove effective . Certainly worth trying to find out . There’s absolutely nothing to lose by doing so , and potentially much to be gained . Even if * all * it succeeds in doing is getting more of our people to think about the roots of our current predicament . It will be worth the effort
The legal and contractual requirements of the Treaty of Union and the Claim of Right satisfied, witnessed and signed off by The First Minister, The Lord Advocate, Leader of the Court of Session, Former First Minister, Leader of the SNP at Westminster. The Church of Scotland and so on. That’s that done and dusted. King Charles III is King of Scotland and is Head of State in Scotland.
Given how, during this morning’s ceremony at St James’s Palace, Scotland’s place in the Union was front and centre. Our new King has taken an oath to uphold the place of the Church of Scotland, and has reinforced the place of the Claim of Right in the fabric of the UK.
It is now clearer than ever, disentangling oursleves from England will probably be even-harder than we have thus far imagined. It will be one helluva fight.
I also cannot help thinking – if the English Establishment had a grain of sense about them, and weren’t just in it for themselves, they would be looking to find a reproachment with Scotland to make the Union fairer, and at the same time, decreasing the numbers of us who know, unless things change, we will be better-off away from England.
But, they are such greedy, self-absorbed and stupid bar stewards, they will not change and, while getting away will be difficult – it will hapen.
Hatuey says:
10 September, 2022 at 11:17 am
I know it’s kinda stereotyping, but don’t you think Charlie looks Irish? He’d suit a jolly Irish accent.
Where’s RoS?
Good question. Maybe he just got totally fed-up with Wings or perhaps he got banned for telling Andy Ellis he would see him next tuesday.
Where’s Chas?
” it’s not just Sturgeon it’s every single SNP politician and that includes the so called ‘good guys’ ”
Agreed . As the * Head of the snake * NS must go first , hopefully followed by her entourage of fruits n nuts
All those old treaties and laws have no place in 2022, as some btl here state. Here’s a quote from LBC News:-
link to 12ft.io
“King Charles will make a personal declaration and and take an oath over the security of the Church of Scotland, which ensures its self-governing status is preserved.
The Oath says: “I, [INSERT TITLE] by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of My other Realms and Territories King, Defender of the Faith, do faithfully promise and swear that I shall inviolably maintain and preserve the Settlement of the true Protestant Religion as established by the Laws made in Scotland in prosecution of the Claim of Right and particularly by an Act intituled “An Act for securing the Protestant Religion and Presbyterian Church Government” and by the Acts passed in the Parliament of both Kingdoms for Union of the two Kingdoms, together with the Government, Worship, Discipline, Rights and Privileges of the Church of Scotland. So help me God.””
@Ottomanboi 9.31 am
So what’s your alternative? We’re all ears.
Pronouncing a plague on all their houses is all very well, but unless you’re seriously advocating for an anrcho-syndicalist utopia or “real” socilaism the CPSU and CCP kept promising was just over the horizon, probably better you get out of the way and let the grown ups organise things?
Andy Ellis says:
10 September, 2022 at 12:04 pm
@Ottomanboi 9.31 am
probably better you get out of the way and let the grown ups organise things?
For goodness sake!
Too much dark sarcasm in the classroom. How the hell will that win voters.
I can understand why ROS might have told Andy Ellis he would ‘see him next Tuesday’
Claim of right as we all know was created by the Protestant nobility and Estates who refused to follow Catholic King James, Thus they were able to impose William by popular acclaim and dethrone James.
What is important is that the Estates of Scotland took this upon themselves as spokespersons for the people, who were predominantly dependent upon these same nobility for their livliehood, They were not asked to choose.
The wishes of the Bruce have never been followed or acted upon.
John Main says:
10 September, 2022 at 9:41 am
Devine Dorothy
WTF TV do you watch?
Remote broke, or just too complicated for you to fathom out?
John Main says:
10 September, 2022 at 9:33 am
@Fionan 8:52
A round of applause for Fionan, who has cut short the hand feeding of Nessie and let the haggis herd out of their coop early, in order to engage briefly with the real world.
Well done Fionan, but it’s a fine day to paint that coop tartan, chop chop now!
What kinda way is that to speak to other adults?
If I were criminal profiler domestic abuser would definitely be on my list of possible profiles for John Main.
All in all around 96 petitions were submitted to the Scottish Parliament in 1707 demanding the Union be scrapped. It was signed by thousands or they made their mark.There were riots and troops from England were summoned to quell them with orders to shoot.
The Duke of Argyll dismissed all these petitions as ” paper kites” from the lower classes of society. Common folk wanted the Treaty annulled.
BRIAN DOOTHETOON 11:54
BBC TV broadcast gave that Claim of Right star billing as first item on the oath taking agenda. Very interesting, Sturgeon signing an undoubtedly sectarian document. Protestants, whether practising or not, may rest safely in the knowledge there are no conspiratorial papists under their beds.
As a conspiratorial, Iraq born papist, I wish the pro Claimers good luck in handling that one in the fractious home context for patently the Claim is a key element in what passes for a constitution in our beloved Union.
Nae wonder the Rev is pissed off with the bickering, I’ve been giving it all a miss of late too.
Pop back from time to time, but it’s still the same old shtick.
A triumvirate of po faced,negative minded, fuck all positive to add know it alls are hell bent on finishing WoS off for good, and we all know why.
A fantastic article from Chris btw.
Apropos of nowt, will our new monarch still be dishing out honours for suitcases full of cash, or is that job being delegated to the new ponce of Wales now too?
@Ruby 11.28 am & @Robert 11.43 am
Perhaps those posing the question might care to reflect then on the wisdom of certain individuals cunt-calling those they disagreed with every other post they make? Or the fact that the usual suspects routinely label anyone who disagrees with their output as a yoon / MI5 plant / Sturgeonite / not a “real” independence supporter etc.?
I actually have my differences with John Main, Chas and others mentioned on issues, but at least they’re coherent and not given to just calling folk cunts, telling them to fuck off, or obsessively stalking those they disagree with, or for reasons best known to themselves the children of those they disagree with, or taking the intellectually lazy way out and “othering” them as plants.
Experience has shown you just can’t reason with such folk. Given my experiences on here I wouldn’t cross the road to piss on some of those involved if they were on fire. I don’t give a flying fuck at a rolling donut if we all believe in the same end or not. Fringe nutters like them are as clear and present a danger to achieving independence as the staunchest yoons.
One from Burns re Charlotte Stuart (1753 – 1789) that could almost honour the memory of our own Scots’ Queen Elizabeth*.
It is said that they both had the most beautiful dazzling eyes
THE BONIE LASS OF ALBANY
My heart is wae, and unco wae,
To think upon the raging sea,
That roars between her gardens green
An’ the bonnie Lass of Albany.
This lovely maid’s of royal blood
That ruled Albion’s kingdoms three,
But oh, alas! for her bonnie face,
They’ve wrang’d the Lass of Albany.
In the rolling tide of spreading Clyde
There sits an isle of high degree,
And a town of fame whose princely name
Should grace the Lass of Albany.
But there’s a youth, a witless youth,
That fills the place where she should be;
We’ll send him o’er to his native shore,
And bring our ain sweet Albany.
Alas the day, and woe the day,
A false usurper wan the gree,
Who now commands the towers and lands—
The royal right of Albany.
We’ll daily pray, we’ll nightly pray,
On bended knees most fervently,
The time may come, with pipe an’ drum
We’ll welcome hame fair Albany
* Albeit with a bit of poetic licence about stormy seas between heaven and earth, what her advisors put her through for her beloved husbands funeral during the covid scam, her bonny face on English money, etc, etc – and a qualification that the witless usurper referred to must remain associated with Westminster’s first Eton educated Tory PM (future George III being contemporaneously tutored by Lord Bute according to wikipaedia) rather than its most recent one (despite his surprise resignation), or even his successor, if only thanks to the Rothesay connection (or lack thereof).
ANDY ELLIS 12:04
I suspect, given my very disturbed childhood, disturbed by freedom loving politicians and their hubris, I have had sufficient experiences of what «adults» are capable of, including deaths of extended family members, to be entitled to be very cautious if not totally cynical.
I enjoy the «frisson»of being a devil’s advocate tho.
No goin off to the sk8park.
Ciao!
Stuart, since most people here have more than 2 brain cells, I think I speak for most when I advise you not to insult us with your absurd sycophantic royalist crap.
The very idea of kings, queens, and monarchs should be an insult to any person able to grasp the basic idea that we are all equals, and that goes for your Scottish kings and queens too.
As for Burns, if it wasn’t for a random act of history, he’d have taken that job he had lined up in the slave plantation and none of us would have heard of him or had to suffer his clunky way with words.
Will some people ever tire of bowing?
Andy Ellis says:
10 September, 2022 at 12:58 pm
@Ruby 11.28 am & @Robert 11.43 am
I actually have my differences with John Main, Chas and others mentioned on issues, but at least they’re coherent and not given to just calling folk cunts, telling them to fuck off, or obsessively stalking those they disagree with, or for reasons best known to themselves the children of those they disagree with, or taking the intellectually lazy way out and “othering” them as plants.
Oh aye ‘Birds of a Feather’ and all that. Have you read their posts? It’s more honest to call someone a cunt and tell them to fuck off then the twisted type of demeaning sarcasm they indulge in.
You are not being called a cunt or told to fuck off because people disagree with you.
How come you don’t get it? Thick or self-obsessed?
Can I suggest if someone is stalking your child you go to the police.
I won’t reply to any further post by you I don’t want to accused of indulging in ‘fuckin’ playground shit.
‘A fantastic article from Chris btw’
Trouble is that fine articles and/or speeches don’t cut it anymore: few are listening, and no one is reporting them.
@ Confused (misnomer) on the previous thread posted a link to a video by The Smiths.
While listening to the song I noted that it had been viewed around 18 million times, and out of curiosity I spent 20 minutes looking at the number of views other artists had amassed and compared it to the number of views You Tube had of SNP and Alba videos: –
Ed Sheeran – Shape of You – 5.8 BILLION; Wiz Khalifa – See You Again – 5.62 Billion; Mark Ronson – Uptown Funk – 4.68 Billion; PSY – Gangnam Style – 4.53 Billion; Katy Perry – Roar – 3.65 Billion.
SuBo has 250m for her audition.
Political video number of views from Alba and SNP ranged from … a few hundred to a few thousand.
I’m not sure what conclusions can be drawn from this, except that politics ain’t that popular with the masses, that Chris McEleny’s excellent article will only be heard by the converted and the pseudo-deaf, and that perhaps speeches should be ‘(w)rapped’ around some music before delivery.
Bob Mack.
Aye the treaty of the union with england was not voluntary from Scots,
It was enforced under duress, and military threat to the people in the kingdom of Scotland,
When the nation of Scotland tried to peacable object with 96 petitions from across Scotland, it was dismissed and ignored.
When riots and protests against joining the treaty of the union with england arose military might and threat of harm were dispatched from england,
Then when they knew the Scots did not voluntary want to join the treaty of the union, they withdrew the option for Scots to have a vote on joining,
Nowadays in what is supposed to be a voluntary union England tells Scots that it cannot have a vote on leaving the union voluntary.
It has Very little to do with voluntary then, as it does now, this was a country captured and Colonised by force, threat, duress and military by England, along with making secret arrangements to bring about the signing the treaty,
No matter,
For as yet No one here can provided a date the Sovereign Scots as a nation and old kingdom went to sign up for the treaty of the union,
what was a presumption of arrogance from england then in 1707 of dismissing the Scots as a nation, may prove fatal as to whom is actually signed into the treaty,
The Majority of Scots did not vote to join the treaty of union, that also by default makes the non binding 2014 referendum null and void from the Scots perspective of not being in the treaty,
Those that name call, or pretend my dyslexia may be a problem for the Scots to understand , are managing well enough themselves to understand when they attempt to shoot it down, for they disagree back, and they are the same ones whom disagree with everyone else here,
But have never answered the Question without bluster. So again.
When the Scots were Dismissed from voting in 1707, when 96 Petitions were ignored were in1707,
And after an army from england was sent to the Scottish borders. After the treaty was signed for the Scottish three estates parliament,
No need to come away with the tripe that in those days democratic politics were not done or followed,
Because Westminster UK parliament site states they did discuss wether to give the Scots a vote to join the treaty of the union in 1707.
What was the month and date that 99.9 % of Scots voted to join the treaty of the union after 1707.
@Hatuey
Doubtless the bowing is from the weight of them chips on my shoulders but flipping the optics slightly, I’d imagine your argument for the basic idea that we are all equals, despite the Scottish kings and queens belonging to me (or even Scots in general), might need tweaking.
That said, given the apparent contemporaneous support for leveraging the bloodline of the original bonnie prince (ie the father of Charlotte) and the sentiments of his Earnest Cry and Prayer quoted by McEleny, some Burns related arisings more relevant than the plantation reference might include,
1. Who/what (why/how) prevented the Claim of Right from being invoked in his day
2. Could the Scot’s CoR have (justifiably) taken a backseat in the minds of the libertarian elite following American independence in 1777 and the subsequent completion* of its written constitution in 1788.
3. Do recent attacks on liberty, speech, choice and rights to roam etc on a global scale render urgent its resurrection as a powerful tool for Defenders of Faith at any/every level.
*Albeit subject to amendment in 1791 after (/during) the possibly unrelated disagreement in Paris
What does this mean?
«Your comment is awaiting moderation»
Other than the BOT says nix.
Ottomanboi says:
10 September, 2022 at 2:59 pm
What does this mean?
«Your comment is awaiting moderation»
Other than the BOT says nix.
It means there’s something in your post that flags it as being naughty in some way.
I’m sure it will be moderated some time before Prince William ascends to the throne …
@Ottomanboi (2.59) –
You’ll be able to see that message but the rest of us can’t.
Ruby had compiled a handy list of ‘banned’ words but I can’t remember exactly when.
(Could have been triggered if you mentioned the ‘blue & yellow’ war, or P***n.)
The latest from Grouse Beaters.
link to grousebeater.wordpress.com
@ Marky mark 3.09pm you do well with yir wee sly sleekit digs at Stuart Campbell and his management of HIS website ,from the slowness of the site , to the attacks on the site , the website hosters , now it’s his timing of moderation , YOU must have been a very generous contributor to his website appeals that you feel you have the right to determine how he manages things or to criticise his generosity in keeping the website open
I noted that you were very vociferous and scathing at PAB having the audacity to post comments on WOS by calling him certain names and denigrating his manners , surely if you are unsatisfied or upset at the Web hosts management you would either set up your own and run it to the best of your ability which according to your criticisms would be better than Stu’s or you would accept the graceousness and charity of Stu in keeping it going and stop the wee sleekit and sly digs , I know what my actions would be if I felt my generosity was being abused
Ebok @ 2.12
” I’m not sure what conclusions can be drawn from this, except that politics ain’t that popular with the masses, that Chris McEleny’s excellent article will only be heard by the converted and the pseudo-deaf, and that perhaps speeches should be ‘(w)rapped’ around some music before delivery.”
That’s a really good point .
Politics has never been * cool * though has it ? Other than the fatuous ” Radical Chic ” of early ’70s USA ( mercilessly ripped apart by Tom Wolfe ) and the thankfully brief Red Wedge music-related support for the Kinnock campaign – doomed by his verbose rhetorical overkill ( + NK being undone by an incoming tide ) and to be fair ….the innate conservative nature of the English electorate . We know the ONLY reason New Labour got in – and stayed in for as long was down to it being pink-tinged Tory Lite.
The less said about the cringe-making New Labour attempt at cred-by-association – the Cool Brittania bollocks the better : who can forget the sight of Blair , Brown , Mandelson et al * getting down * at the Eve of New Millennium Knees-up ? seen more rhythm in a dead badger . ” Things Can Only Get Better ” . NAW , they didnae .
Something I noticed in Catalonia – in their La Diada annually and specifically the many gatherings in the run-up to it’s – also doomed – Referendum – was/is the way they manage to create a type of carnivalesque atmosphere , there always seems to be food , drink and music involved ; which , rather than detract from the seriousness of purpose , actually enhances the entire event . Obviously , the climate – and tradition , makes such an approach more doable . Equivalent Scottish Political * gaiety * is difficult in the always likely pishin’ rain . No impossible though .
We witnessed ( to some extent ) the flowering of Scotland in 2014 – the enthusiasm and creativity generated by/centred round a galvanising idea ie Independence .
If only we could recover that energy,colour and unity. Alas…
In Nu SNPville . Energy is depleted/wasted by Identity/Gender .
Colour is reduced to washed-out rainbows and insipid Greens.
Unity = Top/talk down One Party monopoly and ludicrous A.I.M diktats
You’re right ebok, if it’s not being reported, then of course nobody’s hearing the message.
All recent successful political campaigns have used the short soundbite. ‘Take back control’,’MAGA’, ‘Labour isn’t working’, ‘yes we can’…
Much could be made of the simple ‘Alba knows’, playing with the dual meaning.
ie Alba the party, and Alba the country (i know Stu!) & its people.
eg.
‘Why, when we are generating renewable power enough to spare, are so many of our people in fuel poverty?
Alba knows!’
Or, and slightly out of date, ‘Alba knows what Boris thinks of Scots.’
Or, ‘Why is Norway drowning in wealth, and we are drowning our sorrows, drug death central. Alba knows!’
I’m sure that someone here can come up with far better examples, but the point is, the catchy ‘Alba knows’ can be crowbarred into virtually every message, the more concise the better.
And yes, i am a founder member.
Anyone active in the party interesting in proposing ?
Feel free to take the credit.
🙂
Politics is the game of murmuring and empty promises around the world to their people and their countries.
But the one theme that has always been constant through out time, through out politics and through out political parties of all colours and all nations.
Has been to ensure the gap of wealth, the have and have nots, this is always constant in history.
It is not necessary for the have’s group to work hard, for they are living of the backs of the have not group,
Today this gap is growing more than ever, one of the newest causes for this is new political policies being imposed on mainly the poor by the wealthy,
The rules and policiies that are passed are specifically aimed at a certain groups of people to keep and control them into remaining in a middle or lower group.
Often we witness those that scream about climate change are the very same people making industrial scale war weapons to blow up the eco system in some ones else’s country.
Causing wars, famines and migrations of people.
These political choices made by politicians are contradictory in implementation except for investments, stock and shares by the wealthy.
This could be seen with ppi, this can be seen with energy controlled big corporations narrowing the availability,
This can be seen with vehicle control on which choices they restrict us to,
Which boilers to buy for your heating, your food reduction choices,
When I watched all those politicians that have flown, or been transported by large vehicles to hear Charles’s speech and be there, I wondered why they had not given up the luxeries to have biked, walked or went by horse, or waited at a normal train or bus stop.
I wondered what kind of meal would be served by servants, and how many corses they would eat.
I wondered how they could afford to all take time of work while their Country and Countries around the world were suffering,
This reminded me of how many families were penalised by police, during the Virus ahemm, unable to say goodbye to their families and loved ones while the politicians partied and traveled to any destination they pleased.
So the wealthy are selecting whom to punish, other than themselves.
The Country is not in a mess because of the people,
The country is in a mess due to the political choices made by the politicians that needs to ensure the rules for the haves continues, like leeches sucking our Counties dry of all life , if it serves the purpose of a man made deliberate gap between themselves and the have nots.
Scotland needs to veer away from this attitude and take a new fairer path in democracy
Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade
just testing
Insert a “r” into counties .
Is Andy Ellis going to offer an apology to those he denigrated for correctly stating that the Claim of Right Act 1689 is still a fundamental part of Scotland’s constitution?
@”Scott” 4.54 pm
No. It’s still not going to gain us independence, any more than the declaration of Arbroath is.
Which part of this don’t the Bonny Purple Heather Brigade understand? It wouldn’t matter if it didn’t exist.
All the counts is gaining a majority of votes in a referendum or a plebiscitary election.
No amount of colourful history, constitutional frippery and pirouetting ever more frantically on the head of a pin is going to substitute for demonstrating a clear majority, in response to a clear question.
There is no cunning plan or legal shortcut.
Ian Brotherhood says:
10 September, 2022 at 3:37 pm
@Ottomanboi (2.59) –
You’ll be able to see that message but the rest of us can’t.
Ruby had compiled a handy list of ‘banned’ words but I can’t remember exactly when.
(Could have been triggered if you mentioned the ‘blue & yellow’ war, or P***n.)
Yes I did but I cant find it. Could be there are new words on the banned list. I thought maybe ‘Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade’ might have been added but it passed.
I would guess Ottomanboi may have used the words you suggested or set_tlers that one catches a lot of people out.
It’s not ‘naughty’ words that trigger moderation for example an_us does but cunt doesn’t.
Apparently an-us does because too many people were misspelling Sarwar’s Christian name.
The way I discovered this was because I tried to post the name of a well known cream for
hemorrhoids (don’t ask) called Anu_sol.
The banned word can also be part of a word.
The name of a banned poster can also trigger moderation
Scottish person who travels over snow with two planks attached to their feet and two poles in their hand – 5 letters
Scotland Forever in Gaelic. 4 letters 2 letters 5 letters.
Someone on here liked doing crosswords. Was that you Iain?
How about a crossword of banned words.
I don’t think posts ever come out of moderation.
I think the message might be ‘Look what you’ve gone & done now! You’ve trigger the moderation bot. Figure it out or fuck off!’ 🙂
Sorry in advance if I am totally wrong. It often happens. 🙂
I’m keeping my fingers crossed that this post does trigger the bot!
Andy Ellis says:
10 September, 2022 at 5:00 pm
@”Scott” 4.54 pm
No. It’s still not going to gain us independence, any more than the declaration of Arbroath is.
—
You said the Claim of Right Act 1689 had no relevance in the modern day.
You should apologise to those who stated correctly that it is relevant – you won’t though, because you are a petulant cunt.
Tut! I need an editing button.
Jeremiah is never far eh!
Making people aware that the Claim and the Declaration of Arbroath outline who is sovereign in Scotland is pointless?
I think not!
Everything else follows, regardless of the so called ‘Supreme Court’.
The chains that bind us are illusory.
Look, to all the “wha’s like us, gan few and their a’ deid” types, folk need to get over their obsession with 300 year old treaties, Claims of Right, and 700 year old declarations. They’re all inspiring and part of the great tapestry of history etc. but they’re no substitute for having the balls to stand up for ourselves and…..you know…actually voting for independence, ‘K?
There are almost 200 independent states in the UN. Not many of them had our advantages, or could have claimed their sovereignty by the simple expedient of putting a cross in a box. Not many of them, given that chance, would have bottled it as we did in 2014.
Stop hiding your lack of political cojones behind history, constitutional navel gazing and chip on yer shoulder claims that you’ve been robbed or colonised, when the simple fact is too many Scots are slaves who revere their chains.
Show them a better future, inspire them…but don’t for fuck’s sake bore them to death with bromides about centuries old documents nobody in the real world gives much of a toss about.
Ottomanboi
You should take out any of the words mentioned above and re-post.
Try doing it on an old thread one where Gregor posted a whole load of links for example to see if your post still triggers moderation.
I know the words that are banned but I still get caught out and have to re-post and type ‘the war in redacted’
I definitely think the pejorative term ‘The Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade’ or bonny as these say south of the border should be put on the banned list. I think I’ll contact Stu and suggest it.
Stuart, I’m the wrong person to talk to about the Claim of Right. I think it has usefulness as an idea that corroborates nicely with modern ideals of self determination and democracy, but beyond that I can’t see what difference it might make in any legal, political, or constitutional terms.
Scottish people are so busy looking for a way out that they miss the big EXIT sign hanging right over their heads. I suspect they’d rather continue looking than face up to the responsibility of responsibility.
All that’s required for independence is anough people to collectively say “fuck this”. That’s your Claim of Right, universally understood, acknowledged, and accepted the world over. It’s an inalienable right, too, the true gold standard. That’s pretty much how everybody else achieved independence.
I’m tired of people bowing and pledging allegiance to historical artefacts, queens, kings, politicians, experts, poets, science, and everything else. We need to get out of the habit of bowing.
As I said above, once we get rid of the gimps currently running the SNP, everything will seem a lot clearer and things should fall into place.
Would the fact that we have been colonised not account for our lack of cojones?
These people without cojones are British first Scottish 2nd.
See Nicola Sturgeon!
“Show them a better future, inspire them…but don’t for fuck’s sake bore them to death with bromides about centuries old documents nobody in the real world gives much of a toss about.” – Ellis
The new King gives a toss, because he’s legally obliged to adhere to the terms of Claim of Right Act 1689.
Alex Salmond gives a toss because he knows the relevance of the Claim of Right Act 1689, notwithstanding the anti-Catholic language it contains.
Will you be resigning from ALBA in a drunken fit of pique, Andy?
I will try to be helpful here. On Wednesday I was a subject of Queen Elizabeth II. On Saturday I am a subject of King Charles III. Note I am not a citizen. The Claim of Right means nothing if without advanced notification, our entire political, judicial and religious leaders in Scotland can sign it away without reference to the population. And congratulations to James Che who was the one who got me to read the actual Claim of Right. After about one minute I realised it was a toxic document. Sectarianism has no place in Scotland in 2022. I note King Charles III prefixed his oath by saying
‘I am required in Law’. I am not displeased that the Head of State in Scotland is King Charles. Better than some derivative of the duplicitous SNP. We are back to pre 2007. Now you should understand my earlier comment about not voting for the SNP. Notwithstanding their Governance of Scotland recently has been shocking.
@”Scott” 5.49 pm
Will you be resigning from ALBA in a drunken fit of pique, Andy?
Why would I be resigning? Last time I looked slavish adherence to maintaining the centrality of the Claim of Right as the sine qua non of party membership wasn’t “a thing” in the Alba party “Scott”.
I’m not sure the party would take much notice of the views of some anonymous creepy as fuck stalker on the internet pontificating about who should or shouldn’t resign either. Feel free to get in touch with them if you’re a member and suggest it though. I wonder what their reaction will be?
As for my alcohol intake, a glass of Alvarinho may have been taken imbibed with the pasta and fruits de mer, but unlike you you I don’t need artificial stimulants to string two sentences together. HTH.
Andy Ellis says:
10 September, 2022 at 6:12 pm
As for my alcohol intake, a glass of Alvarinho may have been taken imbibed with the pasta and fruits de mer, but unlike you you(sic) I don’t need artificial stimulants to string two sentences together. HTH.
—
lol
Aside from going back to the nasty rhetoric for some,
This is an excellent site that Stu hosts
It creates many varied topics of conversation that concern Scots, Scotland and the wider world that has effects often reflected back to us here in Scotland as a Country,
Stu always starts the conversations going, and many contribute along the way with topics they are maybe more genned up on,
It is as a jewel amongst pebbles on a stoney beach.
Many people are still learning about the Claim of Right for Scots that is being dismissed as a ancient throwaway by some stalwarts
Many are still learning about the treaty of the union which is also rendering as easily dismissed as some thing so old to suggest it is worthless looking at it as having any reverence legally.
It is strange in its very tone to suggest that these things should not be studied more thoroughly and yet stand on the same soap box shouting we want a independent Scotland,
From What,
There may be two fractions here,
One fighting for independence from solely the Snp.
And the other from
From the treaty of the union and Westminster
@ George Ferguson at 5.50pm
Re. Sectarian issue in CoR.
Did you read this article from 31st August which addresses that point?
link to yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com
If you didn’t or can’t be arsed clicking link here’s an extract.
“Mr. Dunlop also justifiably cites the very sectarian clauses against ‘popery’ and the like in the 1689 Claim of Right, which obviously and rightly have no place in contemporary society. He also cites the 1689 equivalent of the ‘right to remain silent’ enshrined in the CoR, which remains very relevant. He validly inquires as to how one can determine which clauses are still in force in law, and which aren’t.
The answer lies in distinguishing statutory effect from constitutional principle. If one examines the US Constitution for example, the original text in Article I, Section 2 holds that slaves are to be counted as ? of a person in counting the population for representation. This provision was rendered moot by the XIV amendment which guaranteed equal citizenship for all (men) in the wake of the Civil War. The ? compromise remains in the original text, but no longer has any statutory effect, it thereby fell by implication. This is also the case for the fugitive slave clause in Article IV, Section 2. Basically, virtually all historical constitutional documents and laws include provisions we find abhorrent in contemporary society, yet they remain in the text because one cannot retroactively rewrite them, though they have no current statutory effect. In the UK, this includes all the ‘popery’ provisions in the Magna Carta, the 1689 Claim of Right, the 1689 English Bill of Rights, the 1706 Treaty of Union, the 1707 Acts of Union, and on, and on. If one invalidated all historical constitutional documents because of controversial provisions with no contemporary effect, there would be nothing left of ANY constitution.
However, virtually all the mechanisms, clauses, and rights contained within the US Constitution remain in effect, because they are constitutional principles which cannot be altered, except by explicit abrogation which requires super-majorities in the Congress and the States. The procedural criminal rights enshrined in Amendments IV-VIII in the 1791 Bill of Rights exemplify this. Amendment V for example guarantees the Right against self-incrimination, or the Right to remain silent. Over the years, the jurisprudence of the Supreme Court has had a profound effect in the US criminal justice system over how this right has been applied with varying degrees of fairness, but there has never been any meaningful attempt to repeal it. It would never succeed, because it is a constitutional right of which Americans are fiercely protective. Similarly with the Amendment II Right to bear arms.“
George Ferguson 5:50 pm
Good post. Much to agree with.
That’s the reality of our constitution. People have been trying to change it for over a century (think HOL reform), but so far not much has happened.
I am intrigued by the fact that the Union Of The Crowns preceded the Union by 100 years or so. For a century, Scots were much more happy with a remote monarch than they were subsequently with a remote parliament.
Seems to me that some grown-ups, if they could shrug off the knee-jerk compulsion to insult and lie about the monarchy, could make a case for an Indy Scotland to revert to that situation and attempt to get the new King onside with that arrangement. Could well boost the Yes vote, when those Scots (they do exist) who are pro-monarchy, realise you COULD have Indy AND royalty.
Of course, the ideological purists, for whom it has to be a perfect utopian Indy or none, will immediately reject the idea.
@Dan 6:51pm
Thanks for link Dan. I note the article and will read it tomorrow. You can engage with me without decrying I can’t be arsed.
@Dan 6:51
Excellent post.
Legal systems the world over develop by evolution, not revolution. As with genetic junk DNA, what we might consider to be “junk laws” live on.
Myself, I have long favoured the idea that no new law should be passed, unless an old one is repealed to make room. Make the politicians work through the consequences of the ever growing morass of legislation.
@ George Ferguson
From the tone of what you wrote it came across as you’d already made your mind up on the matter to run with the line of your post.
But fairplay if you will actually bother to go and read it and be receptive to taking onboard the thoughts of someone who actually has a bit of savvy on the subject.
Andy E was also going to read it too when he had time. 😉
@John Main 6:59pm
De Facto we have King Charles III as our King and Head of State now. I am not necessarily totally supportive of a Monarchy but on balance I think it is preferable to the shenigans of a SNP that lie all of the time. It would have been nice for the population to endorse this decision but we were not trusted with the decision and that in itself is another story. ‘Dae as yer telt’ Nicola’s legacy.
Being independent from Snp governance is not enough for many in Scotland , its a new half way mark kind of independence.
Something akin to the levelling up BJ spoke about, and has been proposed for all of Britain and progressing since 2014.
Scotland as a region along with counties of England.
This not the what is wrote into the articles of the treaty of the union,
Scotland is a Country, and remains a Country within the Treaty of the union along with the Country of England.
It is not a surprising to hear the labour devolution/fed mantra for Britain. And why Scotland is being told not to look at the Treaty of the union to closely.
It is not difficult for Scotland to understand how it is being suggested the Claim of Right should be dismissed either.
@Dan 7:12pm
I haven’t read your article and was answering another post. I will read it and give you an answer. I have not made my mind because I haven’t read it.
@John Main 6.59 pm
Could well boost the Yes vote, when those Scots (they do exist) who are pro-monarchy, realise you COULD have Indy AND royalty.
Surely all REAL Scots who are pro monarchy will be rooting for King Francis II? 🙂
You know that Claim of Right thingy that some are going on about, hey, here it is in full.
link to ws-export.wmcloud.org
It has more than an orange hue.
Sturgeon signed up to this today.
Judging by body language on tv Charles III looked uncomfortable, even peavish.
Not quite his cup of tea?
twathater says:
10 September, 2022 at 4:12 pm
@ Marky mark 3.09pm
183 words of paragraph free, bite seeking, slobbered textspeak for once without every third word in capitals like an SWP droog.
Well roared, Bottom!
I see BBC Scotland edited out charles’ mention of the claim of right
It is not what they say is interesting it’s is what they don’t say.
We see you BBC Scotland and we will remember
A very well reasoned and written piece, Chris, and nice to see the argument placed in a historical context, but it all comes down to one person holding us back. Neither do I think Sturgeon and her SNP troughers can be reformed or made to see the light any more than Charlie Manson or Ted Bundy could. Sturgeon is keeping us captive in England’s mansion when we all know there’s a ticking economic time bomb under the floorboards just waiting to go off.
If the tussle for independence was a boxing match between Scotland and England then Sturgeon would be fighting for Scotland with both hands tied behind her back. There can only be one outcome.
Not only is she a narcissistic psychopath but she is also a submissive. We need a tiger or tigress fighting our corner, not someone who enjoys being whipped and humiliated.
We knew that there was a concerted effort to smear Jeremy Corbyn and stop him from becoming PM, however it ran much deeper than we first thought.
link to theguardian.com
link to counterfire.org
link to telesurenglish.net
link to twitter.com
@Dan
Andy E was also going to read it too when he had time.
I have now had a chance to read it. I’m not convinced. Mark McNaught comes up with 3 responses to Roddy Dunlop’s piece:
1. I’m not sure the distinction between “statutory effect” and “constitutional principle” actually helps the argument, because self determination is a jus cogens or peremptory norm under international law anyway: it applies to Scotland just like it does to every other case, including many who didn’t have anything like a Claim of Right or Treaty obligation underlying their existing status.
2. The second “prevailing orthodoxy” argument posited by McNaught concerns the legal structure of the ToU: i.e. since the relationship is a treaty between 2 sovereign states, and there are numerous supposed breaches of the treaties, Scotland is free to simply withdraw from the treaty.
I just don’t think it’s as clear cut as that, nor do I think international community will necessarily accept it as legitimate. They MIGHtT or at least some of them might…but they might not. I’m not sure I’d be prepared to bet the farm on it.
3. He says Dunlop’s position is that a “legal” referendum is the ONLY way to achieve independence, but I think that’s a misrepresentation, or at least an over statement of what Roddy Dunlop said. From memory Roddy also said plebiscitary elections were feasible, although from memory he personally thought they were less likely to be successful than an “agreed” or “legal” referendum on the 2014 pattern. Of the six methods McNaught says the SSRG had posited for independence, I tend to agree with Dunlop’s view that only two are practically feasible, even if the others are technically possible.
I am of course instinctively put off by those using the “Scotland as colony” narrative. It’s a huge red flag IMO.
Some of the discussion below the piece is interesting, but I remain unconvinced by
the arguments of those – including Mark McNaught – trying to justify it.
George Ferguson says:
10 September, 2022 at 5:50 pm
… the actual Claim of Right. After about one minute I realised it was a toxic document. Sectarianism has no place in Scotland in 2022. I note King Charles III prefixed his oath by saying ‘I am required in Law’.
I’d love to agree with you that sectarianism has no place in Scotland in 2022, but who the hell are we kidding?
It’s so bloody ingrained in the culture, much of it wilfully by the natives, that it’s going to take some major work to drag them kicking and screaming away from their wee “harmless bit of fun”. When you start a new job and the first thing you’re asked on your first day is what school you went to decades after you left, you know there’s an evil culture long overdue its road to Domestos rather than Damascus.
Charlie Boy’s prefix of “I am required in Law” was telling – sounds like someone’s got down on his shopping list wanting a few wee amendments to the terms and conditions – probably a very good idea considering the name of the next in line – another one with a tendency for living in “interesting times” …
@Andy 8:04pm
Thank goodness somebody has read it. Tomorrow I will be in Edinburgh taking my wife to see the procession. By means of an explanation she was one of the first Queen’s Guides in the UK. And still has the certificate presented by QEII. She is in bits but she voted for Independence as did all of our family. The duality and ambiguity of being Scottish. I am out now of the Independence movement betrayed by the SNP. The original vows of a Queens guide bear no relation to the SNP policy of women with dicks. A lot has changed in the last 50 years and and none of it for the better. We are at ground zero. Thank you Nicola.
“Charlie Boy’s prefix of “I am required in Law” was telling – ” – Boyle
Indeed it was, as it proves that the Crown isn’t above the laws of Scotland.
Well spotted.
@George Ferguson 8.25 pm
We were walking around the Hight St earlier today and they were getting it all set up. It was a bit of a zoo as so much is fenced off. I’d set off early and park away from town and get the tram or bus closer in if I was you.
I’ll be studiously avoiding it and raising a glass to the little gentleman in the black velvet waistcoat! 🙂
@Andy Ellis 7:22
Haha good one, Andy.
Let’s keep the fact that we could have yet another contending dynasty for the Scottish throne on the back burner for now.
At some point, the usual arguments from the usual suspects are bound to peter out. This new subject could be a shot in the arm.
Loving the French connection though. As some commentators have observed, many French so regret that they killed off their own royalty. Or did they? A quick search online finds hundreds of the bastards still around (BTW that’s not me dissing them, they are mostly descended from illegitimate children. The French have their own ways of doing things).
@Andy Ellis 8:44pm
Thanks for the heads up. Husbands have to look after their wives. We have to go for her sake. Even if we don’t see anything it will be cathartic for her. When I said she was the first of QE2 Queens Guides. I should have said she was the first of three in the UK. Photographs and evidence available. She is a woman and honestly believed her vows meant something. In bits for her female grandchildren. She didn’t sign up for Nicola’s agenda.
@John Main 8.52 pm
The direct Stuart claimant is actually Franz, titular King of Bavaria from the House of Wittlesbach. He has no children, so the line then descends through his brother Prince Max, Duke in Bavaria.
Prince Max has five daughters, the eldest of whom Sophie, Duchess in Bavaria who marries Alois the Hereditary Prince of Lichtenstein. Their eldest son is Prince Joseph Wenzel, who would therefore become King of Scotland, Hereditary Prince of Lichtenstein and titular King of Bavaria.
ellis, the disinformationalist strikes again …
the true king of scots ? – this guy
link to youtube.com
him (or idi amin)
lives in neuschwanstein castle (a closet homosexuals idea of a wagnerian opera set)
was also goldfinger
no mr bond, I expect you to die
– hmm, still a guy who could do deals with the chinese and understood currency manipulation would at least be a country mile smarter than anyone in the SNP
Ellis: “I am of course instinctively put off by those using the “Scotland as colony” narrative. It’s a huge red flag IMO.”
A red flag to who? You? Why?
Nobody can deny that there are aspects of the current relationship that are colonial in nature. We could use 100 different words but when a country gets dragged out of the EU by its hair, kicking and screaming, and a bunch of heartless Tory bastards tell us to eat up or shut up, I think it’s quite appropriate (arguably diplomatic) to describe that as colonial.
We could add a thousand other examples of them treating Scotland like shit, from the McCrone Report right through to denying us a referendum today, and they could all be similarly framed, but who are we worrying about offending here with words like ‘colony’?
It seems to me that the only people who should be offended are the colonialists.
Bullies, tyrants, imperialists, and scumbags generally, in the history books there are very few examples who are keen to face the truth of what they are doing. That’s understandable, but why are you offended, Andy?
Anecdotally, I’ve never met any indy supporter in real life who was reluctant to describe Scotland’s relationship with England in terms of being fleeced, treated with disregard, a vassal state, or inherently colonial. All these words and phrases are describing the same thing — an abusive and exploitative relationship — and if that offends you I think you are on the wrong side.
@Mark Boyle 8:06pm
I can’t let that comment without a response. What do you know about sectarianism? Here is what I know. My mum was Catholic my Dad was Protestant married in the Coronation year and vilified as a mixed marriage. 20 years passed before anyone in the extended family spoke to them. How do you think I am entitled to an Irish passport? My mums mum left Ireland at the age of 3 after partition. Sectarianism is deep in Scotland even more reason to reject the validity of the CoR. But no worries I am out of the Independence debate. My son an A and E Doctor has resigned and is working his 3 months notice and will be gone early in the New Year. The Royal College of Emergency Medicine say 30 people are harmed or die every week although he says to me that is an underestimate. Conditions are unsafe for staff. Keep voting SNP until the tears wash up on your doorstep.
The Royal College of Emergency Medicine is just a trade union with a pan-loafy name, as are all the rest of the Royal Colleges.
Language of deception right there, to imply authority – lapped up by the stupid among us, as evidenced.
Is your son causing harm or death too, or are the 30+/week someone else’s fault, George?
Hi George Ferguson at 12:03 am.
You mentioned “sectarianism”.
From the link Dan provided further up the comments, the sectarian aspects of The Claim Of Right have been negated by later legislation.
However, they are still in the original document, as historical documents remain as they were, although their terms are no longer active, due to later changes in the law.
See:
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Stuart, You haven’t made any obsessively weird trans posts recently. Meds kick in? Let’s face it, you and the trans nutters got just as far off the planet as each other. Laughing, but not maliciously.
The King of that dump Engerland is not welcome in my country.
Him and his horse face wife plotted the death of his first wife,,, not a nice chap.
Charles di Turd as he would be known in Southern Ireland.
And Charles the Turd as he will be known in Scotland also.
Did Scotland have a Charles the second? Or even a Charles the first.
This English Parasite can stay as far away as possible from Scotland.
After we regain our Independence there should be three referenda set up.
One for EU membership.
One for NATO membership.
And one for keeping the English Royals.
Me personally would go for,,,,
EFTA
Non NATO
Republic.
Firstly, Sturgeon really has to make positive moves towards independence.
No more soundbites,,we need action from her and her MPs
If not,,,resign Nicola,, for the sake of Scotland.
Don’t forget the big Yestival Rally gathering.
Next Saturday George (Freedom) Square Glasgow.
Get yourself along there.
Show the Unionist media where our heart really lies,,in putting an end to this stinkin Union.
Next Saturday Glasgow lunchtime,,,be there or be square.
Great atmosphere in the pubs afterwards.
Show England how much we are mourning the passing of their purring Queen.
You are spot on, but like others have commented…it’s the leadership that is lacking spine.
Why the fk is the Stone of Destiny going to London for Heidi-the-baw’s coronation?
Why should it ever leave Scotland? They stole it first, and now expect to borrow it?
If he wants to be monarch of Scotland, he should act like one. If they don’t want a Scottish coronation, then they should keep their thieving mitts off the Stone of Destiny and merely look at it the way they only look at the Scottish Crown Jewels.
Yestival is Sunday 18th 12-5pm, the day before the funeral.
I can see it being cancelled, but I’m not the polis or GCC, am just a Weegie who’ll be there regardless, with a picnic and a neighbour.
It shouldn’t be cancelled because uncoupling the two kingdoms isn’t a threat to the monarchy in England, Wales, Northern Ireland or even Scotland. Unionist fixation with GB, despite its obvious dysfunction, makes no sense.
The Treaty & Acts of Union were essentialy & effectively to make the administrative life of Queen Anne easier, such that the laws, Excise duties, value of currency, etc were to be the same and set by a single parliament when needed – the notion that the parliament could then dictate to the people of Scotland, close our Treasury etc wasn’t ever part of the deal. Party politics, lawmaking for lawmaking sake & Government by imposition do not allow the treaty, or Scotland, to actually function as intended.
Scotland really needs to have a word with the King about this unlawfulness, because his Maw & her predecessors did fuck all. Neither have our politicians; they’ve never actually grasped the nettle and highlighted the unlawfulness of HMG actions over time, but then swearing an oath to the monarch does that to you, I guess.
The easiest way to lawfully end the union is to raise a case in the Court of Session – suing HM Government, HM Parliament et al. for breach of ‘everything’ and remedy of restoration.
It’d be cheaper to cede Scotland to its independence with a financial settlement than pay £Scot into our Treasury that should have accrued over time and continue in a ‘union as intended’, because the amount owed is equal in value to ‘every £GBP in existence and IOUs issued by HMG’.
For the evident utility of…the meaning is and was always clear.
This was never meant to be an incorporating union and isn’t one.
@Confused 10.49 pm
Living up to your ID again I see? Where’s the disinformation….? It’s pretty readily available to anyone with an internet connection. There’s loads of stuff about royal genealogy, particularly about things like the Stuart succession.
Oh, and no….he doesn’t live in Neuschwanstein castle, he lives in the Nymphenburg Palace in Munich and Berg Palace. Doubtless we can set about as much store in the rest of your output as your response above eh?
Stun us wi’ another!
JOHN MAIN 10.SEPT@10:02
I was born in country where a host of united front foreign powers did send
tanks etc in, Including the land you defend which sent 5000 soldiers.
That particular country came into existence only in 1917 as a recognisable entity. Iraq as a British confected «Hashemite kingdom» in 1921. Both are «artificial» creations.
Both are functionally ethnically mixed non nations with internationally recognized bogus
statehood, rather like the UKGBNI
How different from the Scottish national case.
Defenders of status quos ought to check out what exactly they are
defending.
Andy Ellis says:
11 September, 2022 at 8:39 am
@Confused 10.49 pm
Living up to your ID again I see? Where’s the disinformation….? It’s pretty readily available to anyone with an internet connection. There’s loads of stuff about royal genealogy, particularly about things like the Stuart succession.
Oh, and no….he doesn’t live in Neuschwanstein castle, he lives in the Nymphenburg Palace in Munich and Berg Palace. Doubtless we can set about as much store in the rest of your output as your response above eh?
Stun us wi’ another!
—
He was referring to the guy in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, ya stoopid cunt.
Scott 3.43am
Cheers for correction.
Yestival is actually on SUNDAY 18th September.
Anniversary of our “GREAT DEFEAT”.
Let’s hope it goes ahead.
No doubt our Union luvvin leader Sturgeon will give it a big thumbs down.
@Hatuey 11.33 pm
I agree there are elements of the relationship that are exploitative, and that the “Scottish cringe” is a thing, it’s the description of the situation as colonial. Of course the UN doesn’t accept it to be the case, irrespective of the best efforts of Alf Baird et al., so describing Scotland as a colony – whether because you believe it to be accurate or for rhetorical effect – doesn’t really signify anything much, except perhaps an over active imagination or sense of desperation.
I’ve always thought those who suffered at the hands of “real” colonialism and their descendants would with some justice feel offended by the false equivalence, but I suspect it’d cut no ice with those who insist Scotland is in fact a colony.
Your anecdotal experience, whist interesting, doesn’t really tell us much. For what it’s worth, my experience is the opposite. I’ve heard a few folk use the “Scotland as colony” narrative as a rhetorical device in debates and at some party meetings in the past, but there didn’t seem to me to be much conviction behind it, or general support for it.
An analogy I’ve used before, mostly I think because I was reading Frederick Douglass’ biography at the time this issue was first being widely discussed here and elsewhere, is that using the “Scotland as colony” has no more validity than does the false comparison used by many in the 19th century – and roundly condemned by actual victims of slavery like Douglass – that the poor in the UK and Europe were enslaved.
As for your parting shot about me “being on the wrong side”, it’s just par for the course from the unreasoning claque in here: anyone they can’t howl down, have ejected or scunner with their constant “othering” must be a plant, or a closet yoon, or 77th Brigade. I’d like to say I expected better, but at this stage I honestly don’t.
It’s not folk like me with fairly mainstream views on most topics that are the real threat to the movement achieving its aims Hatuey, it’s the kind of ultras and largely anonymous fringe nutters in here that are the problem. Of course, every mass movement has a leavening of cranks. Ours are in my view just as big a threat as dyed in the wool unionists and British nationalists.
George Ferguson says:
11 September, 2022 at 12:03 am
@Mark Boyle 8:06pm
I can’t let that comment without a response. What do you know about sectarianism? Here is what I know. My mum was Catholic my Dad was Protestant married in the Coronation year and vilified as a mixed marriage. 20 years passed before anyone in the extended family spoke to them. How do you think I am entitled to an Irish passport? My mums mum left Ireland at the age of 3 after partition. Sectarianism is deep in Scotland even more reason to reject the validity of the CoR. But no worries I am out of the Independence debate. My son an A and E Doctor has resigned and is working his 3 months notice and will be gone early in the New Year. The Royal College of Emergency Medicine say 30 people are harmed or die every week although he says to me that is an underestimate. Conditions are unsafe for staff. Keep voting SNP until the tears wash up on your doorstep.
Wait, what?
First comes a knee jerk “what do you know about sectarianism? Ma family suffered this and that blah blah blah cue violins and big hankies “ – a classic of the “Cufflink” school of perma-victimhood (as opposed to the “Prodesdent” pretend “master race” complex, the twin cheek of the same arse)- then you go completely off on another tangent about your doctor son chucking it.
What are you expecting for all that? A medal?
Keep your garbled harangues for the pub which by the sounds of it you’d just returned from, judging by that plate of syntactic spaghetti.
Another day, another whiny, OTT EU referendum post from Hatuey in defence of the colonialism theory.
Hatuey can write posts on here, but can’t read or comprehend a simple question like:
“Should the UK remain a member of the EU or leave the EU?”
When Hatuey was in the polling booth, Hatuey magically believed that votes for Remain would bring about the dissolution of the UK. To be fair, there are a few other cognitively challenged individuals who believed the same fantasy.
But naw. UK voters were asked, UK voters voted Leave by a majority, so the UK left. Simples. And the clearest ever example of UK politicians doing exactly and precisely what UK voters told them to do.
Yet, Hatuey is deeply and permanently unhappy at politicians doing what they were told to do.
Boo fucking hoo.
Does a colony get asked to participate in the democratic processes of the “colonising power”? Naw.
Ottomanboi 8:41
Scotland is ethnically mixed to a considerable degree. Both historically, and in the more recent past. Every day, in every way, we are getting more ethnically mixed. I don’t follow the logic of your assertion that ethnic mixing somehow “disqualifies” a country from authenticity and the right to international recognition.
I take on board your animosity to the country that sent 5000 troops to your ancestral homeland. But if you are claiming “karma’s a bitch”, then Scotland is fucked also.
Despite the claims by some on here that some big English bastards did all the bad imperial stuff and then ran away, the historical facts show that the ancestors of many of today’s Scots waded knee deep in the same seas of blood.
John Main @ 9:31 am
“Does a colony get asked to participate in the democratic processes of the “colonising power”? Naw.”
Well, yes actually, for colonialism is always ‘a co-operative venture’ with native elites.
However, the subordinate position of the colonised is never in doubt.
I think I will give this thread a miss and leave it to the Brigadoon Patriots Historical Society for the hard of thinking and easily deceived.
Hope you all have fun!
John Main says:
11 September, 2022 at 9:51 am
Ottomanboi 8:41
Scotland is ethnically mixed to a considerable degree. Both historically, and in the more recent past. Every day, in every way, we are getting more ethnically mixed. I don’t follow the logic of your assertion that ethnic mixing somehow “disqualifies” a country from authenticity and the right to international recognition.
I take on board your animosity to the country that sent 5000 troops to your ancestral homeland. But if you are claiming “karma’s a bitch”, then Scotland is fucked also.
Despite the claims by some on here that some big English bastards did all the bad imperial stuff and then ran away, the historical facts show that the ancestors of many of today’s Scots waded knee deep in the same seas of blood.
Look back in history and you’ll see the poor benighted Turks got up to all sorts of barbarism with the neighbours with their empire, the Iraqis likewise as the Mesopotamians, the Abbasid Caliphate and the Sumerians. When it comes to history, few tribes have clean hands, never mind whole nations – and they usually did so with plenty of help from the locals. Witness Scotland’s messy wars leading to its formation where each faction stabbed each other in the back with Viking help an absurd number of times until they were forced to unite to beat the very monster they’d created.
I agree with you on the absurdity of “ethnic purity” defining “nationhood”, which is ultimately an abstract concept attempting to marry sentiment to pragmatics. Whilst it can define a sense of belonging with those who are not immediate kith and kin, such matters are essentially always to do with comtemporary realities – for example, Scotland was formed after centuries of wars and politicking by the rival Picts, Gaels, Clyde Britons and Northumbrian Anglo-Saxons in conjunction with the more pragmatic Viking factions who realised the old days of easy pickings against weak and disunited victims were over.
“Scotland was formed after centuries of wars and politicking by the rival Picts, Gaels, Clyde Britons and Northumbrian Anglo-Saxons in conjunction with the more pragmatic Viking factions who realised the old days of easy pickings against weak and disunited victims were over.” – Boyle
Did a viking tell you this shite?
I listened to a podcast a while ago where an expert sounded less than convincing when talking about her expertise on medievalism and big hairy pragmatic vikings.
But then ancient viking history is mainly guesswork upon guesswork…an interesting hobby, but not a properly productive or worthwhile profession beyond the chattering upper classes and deluded fantasists of Camfordshire-upon-lies
@Mark Boyle 9:17pm
You are right I allowed my frustration coupled with a growing realisation that I have spent too much resource on the cause of Independence to no avail. However, I think lived experience adds to the debate an example being the Iraq post above. I won’t be here for an Independence vote in any event. You have the field.
Scott says:
11 September, 2022 at 10:49 am
Did a viking tell you this shite?
I listened to a podcast a while ago where an expert sounded less than convincing when talking about her expertise on medievalism and big hairy pragmatic vikings.
😀 Some random fatbeard sockpuppet trolling Wings Over Scotland thinks they know better than the likes of Professor Stephen Driscoll, Tim Clarkston, etc. 😀
JOHN MAIN 09:51
I did not intend to imply ethnic mixing negates nationhood. However, in the two cases cited the mix is still an unstable oil and water emulsion.
Nations are as viable as the degree of effort put into their creation. Iraq is a failed nation-state as the effort was not sustained, giving way to factionalism and division, the murder of the king setting the tone for what followed.
Sectarianism and factionalism have a nasty habit of crawling out of the backwoods when least expected. My «tribe» no that well.
Take great care Scotland. Prejudice slits throats.
My English…
«my tribe know that well»
John Main seems to think Scotland being dragged out of the EU against its will is an argument for democracy and the UK Union. His tag-team partner, Ellis, without spelling it out (for he knows by spelling it out he will spell out his own ignorance), doesn’t think Scotland’s experience in the UK Union has been brutal enough to merit use of the word colonial.
We’ve all been here before.
It is a childish view that colonies necessarily required military occupation and constant violent repression in order to keep them in place. Most, or at least many, were sustained quite peacefully with enforcement of law and order (crowd control) left to local forces on the ground.
Providing the wealth and resources continued to flow uninterrupted into the right hands, there was little need or point in colonial soldiers holding the people of a given colony at gunpoint, and in Britain’s case there was very often such shortages of soldiers that meaningful military occupation would have been impossible.
The British empire like no other was an empire based very much on consent and cooperation, with most of the dirty work and tedious duties of administration delegated to friendly forces on the ground. When things got out of control or some sort of uprising occurred, British forces or forces from other colonies were sent in to maintain order but that happened much less frequently than people seem to think. The first serious rebellion in India, for example, was in 1857, around 200 years after the English arrived.
There are many other such examples.
It’s not always easy to tell if a country is colonised either. If you look at the experience of people in places like Kenya, even after formal decolonisation it was clear that Britain was in the background pulling strings and essentially playing a colonial role. Accounts of many in that country suggest the repression got worse after decolonisation. And again, there are many other such examples.
Some people like to pretend they know about these things, and some like to pretend they don’t know. The truth often is hard to find, one way or another.
George Ferguson says:
11 September, 2022 at 10:49 am
@Mark Boyle 9:17pm
You are right I allowed my frustration coupled with a growing realisation that I have spent too much resource on the cause of Independence to no avail. However, I think lived experience adds to the debate an example being the Iraq post above. I won’t be here for an Independence vote in any event. You have the field.
Oh, I wouldn’t be too downhearted with the state of things. History has a habit of catching us out when least expected with plot twists no one say coming.
For example, on your subject of Ireland, the immediate aftermath of the 1916 Easter Rising was widespread fury at a group of hotheads having zero qualms about killing fellow Irish in pursuit of their cause (a matter made worse by the number of telegrams hitting households regarding the appalling losses of the 16th Irish at Loos). Like the Viet Cong after Tet, the Irish Republican Brotherhood seemed at its nadir.
But we all know what happened next …
The death of Queen Liz could prove one of those catalysts to God knows what. A death in itself is nothing in the grand scheme, but sometimes even the most peaceful death due to the individual concerned has unexpected consequences, partly from the psychological impact. The more the “great certainties” crumble, the more the psychological barriers to change crumble with them, the comfort blanket of the status quo and routine no longer work.
Already there’s talk of some countries chucking having the British monarch as Head of State, paradoxically there’s one’s talking about taking it back or rejoining the Commonwealth who prior to Thursday could never forgive Liz for “presiding” over the messy process of decolonialisation in their nations. Each nation has its own takes and agendas on the events in far away lands.
Of course, as in many moments in history it may all prove to be little more than people thinking out loud and nothing will come from it. But perhaps a sign of the changes that have come – and the change that may yet be – is that in the space of just 48 hours the UK has gone from a Queen and a male PM to a King and a female PM, and all of it seems now not in the least surprising in a land which had gone from Brexit to Covid lockdowns after two decades of Justin Currie-esque “Nothing Ever Happens” naval gazing.
We are, as they say, living in “interesting times” …
@Hatuey 12.04 pm
His tag-team partner, Ellis, without spelling it out (for he knows by spelling it out he will spell out his own ignorance), doesn’t think Scotland’s experience in the UK Union has been brutal enough to merit use of the word colonial.
I wasn’t aware I had any tag team partners, but in my admittedly limited exposure to WWF wrestling, Hatuey and his ilk have about as much relationship to reality as the performers in the ring. I sometimes agree with Mr Main, and sometimes I don’t. Doubtless there are issues we agree on, and many that we don’t.
You and others repeatedly saying that Scotland is a colony of England doesn’t render it any more true. The brutality used and oppression suffered by some at certain points in our history doesn’t automatically equal to colonial status either.
Sadly for you, the vast majority of right thinking Scots think the Scotland as colony snake oil is at best performative hyperbole, and at worst self serving bollocks that is an insult to the victims of real colonisation, in which many Scots were enthusiastic participants, and from which Scots as a whole benefited as willing participants in the British imperial project.
Of course for the hard of thinking its much easier to don the mantle of victimhood than face the hard facts. Recently it seems the “Scotland as colony” hawkers increasingly resemble those in the Historikerstreit in Germany who sought to absolve the German people as a whole from any responsibility for the crimes of the Nazi regime: it was all the fault of a small cabal of bad actors, something that was done to the German people, not by them.
@Mark Boyle 11.25 am
Careful Mark, “Scott” will be threatening to pay you a vist next along with his neighbour…or was it his carer…?…and then start the creepy as fuck personal stalking and discussing your children on line.
Apparently it’s all acceptable behaviour BTL in WoS.
@Mark Boyle 12.12 pm
For example, on your subject of Ireland, the immediate aftermath of the 1916 Easter Rising was widespread fury at a group of hotheads having zero qualms about killing fellow Irish in pursuit of their cause (a matter made worse by the number of telegrams hitting households regarding the appalling losses of the 16th Irish at Loos). Like the Viet Cong after Tet, the Irish Republican Brotherhood seemed at its nadir.
But we all know what happened next …
Good point, eloquently made. Few people in Ireland or elsewhere would have predicted the Sinn Fein victory in 1918 in the immediate aftermath of the Easter Rising. Interestingly of course much of the British nationalist elite of the time were fully behind the decision to execute the “rebels” and itching to enforce a military solution in the early 1920’s.
Sadly I don’t see many nationalist leaders in Scotland who would be capable of performing the tasks the independence movement requires in the coming months and years, despite the task being considerably easier and less prone to violent suppression than its Irish predecessor a century ago. If every country has the government it deserves, the Scots must have some pretty bad karma somewhere!
The Queen’s horses will need a new home. Holyrood would make ideal stables. The SNP is well versed in producing the sort of stuff which emerges from the rear end of these animals.
In another 12 years there should be an amount of material which would rival that of Augeas, requiring a Herculean figure to clean it up. Does Scotland have one I wonder. Or was Sturgeon his Achilles heel?
Maybe it is just me but Charles oath was a sectarian.
Clearly Catholics , or any other religion for that matter, by the oath are put that they were not welcome. No messing, absolutely clear, for the entire world to see.
It is difficult to understand how such bias could e displayed in a present day context. Indeed, were anyone else to display such sectarian bias then they would be in any other sphere prosecuted.
A modern day re-statement of bias and bar and no wonder that Tony Blair did not convert formally to becoming a Catholic until after he had left office.
O/T @Breeks
You seem to have gone a bit quiet on events in “Country 404” after your remarks upthread? (8th Sept. at 9.21 pm):
It’s possible it’s a desperate death or glory morale booster, (morale was in trouble after the dismal Kherson offensive), but it’s an “event”, an “R” reverse against the run of play, and it’s fuller significance will become clearer in due course.
Doubtless the 3000 sq km that Vlad and his nice bunch of lads have surrendered is a cunning plan of some sort? I seem to recall the Orcs took months to capture Izyum but were driven out in 12 hours.
Scotland’s Stone of Destiny to be removed from Edinburgh castle and taken to England for King Charle’s III’s coronation.
link to 12ft.io
I thought it was time to once again say thank-you to Stuart for giving us this site all totally free of charge.
THANK YOU STUART 🙂
Republicofscotland says:
11 September, 2022 at 1:57 pm
Scotland’s Stone of Destiny to be removed from Edinburgh castle and taken to England for King Charle’s III’s coronation.
Which would you prefer the stone going to London or having the coronation here?
I’d say please take the stone to London.
It is the Treaty of union that has been Colonised.
The myth that two Countries voluntary entered in to the treaty of union, is now being used as a English Westminster parliament weapon over hold of Scotland and its people.
I think a good example of that Colonialism of the treaty is
MacCrones report,
Another good example of that Colonialism over taken the treaty was the poll Tax.
Another good example of that Colonialism taken over the treaty was the Scotland Reform Bills.
Another good example of Colonialism taken over the treaty, is when Westminster Laws over rule Scots law.
Another good example of that Colonialism taken over the treaty is devolution reducing Scotland from a equal entry Country in the treaty to now merely being a region.
These are the first examples that come to mind, they are not the only ones by No means.
The contorted view that only Westminster has become the treaty of the union, is sole owner of a Treaty and shall be the only beneficary.
This is Colonialism of the treaty of the union,
Andy Ellis says:
11 September, 2022 at 1:41 pm
I seem to recall the Orcs took months to capture Izyum but were driven out in 12 hours.
On the other hand, it did take five hundred years to drive the Orcs out of Moria 😛
I remember Ruthie trying to stir up religious bigotry in Scotland to divide and weaken Scotland.
I remember NS trying to do the same during the virus.
What a sword for Scotland independence to fall by.
For the last two days there has been a policeman everyone 10 yards on each side of the Royal Mile standing there 24/7.
There are currently crowds on the pavements but not a Union Jack in sight.
I’m curious to know what they will do when the procession passes. They all seem to have cameras. Will they all be taking photographs?
You might be able to see the procession here if you are interested:
link to mylivestreams.com
This webcam is opposite St Giles. Normally you would be able to see the woman with the 11K piercings
link to tinyurl.com
I couldn’t get it to work ‘cos I don’t have the flash plug-in installed & QFMD.
Yikes….James Che has “Crossed the Streams” of the colonisation and ToU….!
Be afraid….be very afraid…. 🙁
Anyone know the history of the rules of chess?
Some bloke in the herald going by name of Sir Tom Devine apparently had this to say when reflecting on the reigns of Charles I and II
“Scotland had been conquered by Cromwell between 1652 and 1660, the only time in Scotland’s history when it was ever conquered, so you can imagine the celebrations in Old Scotia”
Yet the same Charles (the dude that looks like he should be on a McEwans export can)* that was crowned King of Scots in 1651, went on to reign over England from 1660-1685 – a result whose allegorical equivalent would not be possible in a game of chess.
ie far from the interpretation presented, it looks suspiciously as though Scots not only inherited the Kingdom of England in 1603, they physically conquered it in 1660 just to make sure.
link to andreazuvich.com
Andy Ellis says:
11 September, 2022 at 2:43 pm
Yikes….James Che has “Crossed the Streams” of the colonisation and ToU….!
Be afraid….be very afraid….
That’s a pretty nasty comment Andy.
Westminster Colonising a treaty between the parliaments of both Scotland and England over the years resulted in secrets being withheld from Scotland.
One of the worst financial secrets detrimental to Scotland in taxes and revenue was the MacCrones report.
Westminster acted in secret and a underhand manner withheld reports, instead acting if Westminster parliament was a English parliament,
rather than working together with Scotland as it promised, it acted as opposition to Scotland, to it care and duty for the welfare of Scotland and her people within the boundaries of the treaty of union,
Willie @1:26
“Maybe it is just me but Charles oath was a sectarian.”
Course it is – which is why he stressed that it was required in law that he say it, and did so unwillingly through obviously gritted teeth. I’m sure that if it were not a legal requirement you’d have heard nothing of the sort from him.
Outdated bollocks frankly.
Ruby,
Thanks for making the point,
Have you noticed that whenever discussion are held that they are not (to) keen on the from Scottish independence movement up come their hackles,
The derogatory comments spew forth to on us all.
If they cant answer around the suject or curtail it, its either cover by bluster, insults or trying to stir trouble between commentators,
It is is a pattern of behaviour that suggest inferiority of thought,
It is all very well being able to academically parrot fashion a conversation, but individual thought being allowed is apparently dangerous,
It must be crushed,
Interesting that often people whom claim academic qualifications think they are clever, but often cannot think outside the realms of the boxes they were taught,
Most of the great entrepreneurs were and are dyslexic, most of the inventors of Scotland had no qualifications but alternative ways of thinking.
I don’t feel insulted by their comments as they may wish me to,
I feel sorry that once their parrot fashion academic intelligence is spent, there is nothing left for them but to fall back on after their intelligence has been stretch so far, but insults.
Intelligence is not a quantified by a certificate on its own.
Many Thanks though Ruby.
” Orcs “. from the guy who frequently complains about ” othering ”
Does it give you a wee frisson of * edge * using such terminology Andy ? And you’ve been pretty quiet for months after gloating about how the martyrs , saints and heroes of U were killing more of the Rs than the reverse – without the slightest bit of evidence this was the case and ample evidence it wasn’t ; now you re-emerge on the subject to gloat again about the deaths of people’s fathers, husbands , sons . Dehumanising them by your disgraceful epiphet .
Why don’t you share your considered thoughts on the utterly corrupt Z regime , it’s disregard for International Rules of Engagement eg using civilians as human shields , it’s imprisoning – when not murdering , of political opponents . And while you’re at it – how a Z List * actor * came to have sufficient wealth he felt it expedient to stash it in offshore accounts . Maybe he won the lottery eh ?
Ah ! I forgot , there’s only one possible view of this morass ie RED BAD – YELLOW N BLUE GOOD . That’s it . Nothing more need or should be said or thought on the subject .
plus …..the Z regime eliminating workers rights to make the country more * attractive * to foreign , Corporate investors .
Worra guy
@Robert Hughes 4.40 pm
Either you’re on the side of good, or the side of evil. You’ve certainly picked a side. There’s something of the darkness about anyone who tries to diminish the crimes of Vlad and his mates using the arguments you and yur mates always trot out.
Thankfully the vast majority of reasonable folk aren’t apologists for Vlad and pour scorn on those fluffing for him. It’s only in here that you really hear or see, and virtually always from anonymous online cowards who wouldn’t have the guts to own their views publicly because they know they’re about as popular as a fart in a sauna.
I have precisely the same fucks to give for Vlad’s soldiers as I did for say…German soldiers between 1939 and 45. All the whataboutery about “country 404” not being perfect doesn’t make your disgraceful apologia of a bunch of war criminals and murderers of innocent civilians more acceptable.
James Che says:
11 September, 2022 at 4:02 pm
Ruby,
Thanks for making the point,
Have you noticed that whenever discussion are held that they are not (to) keen on the from Scottish independence movement up come their hackles,
The derogatory comments spew forth to on us all.
I’ve noticed quite a lot of nasty stuff but what can you do? I’ve said plenty so I reckon it’s someone else’s turn now.
The derogatory comments spew forth to on us all.
Just a thought, but perhaps if there wasn’t so much repetitive spewing on the part of you and a few of yer know-nothing muckers, there would be no derogatory comments….?
Ruby @ 5.06pm asks ‘what can you do?’
Humour or distraction?
Which reminds me, Alex and Nicola were both at the Privy Council meeting recently. Their brief conversation apparently went along these lines.
A.S. (After humming the tune to lavender blue, lavender green}
Can’t we be friends dilly dilly, work as a team? I once was king dilly dilly, that’s still my dream.
N.S. Then have the op. dilly dilly, know what I mean? I’ll be the king dilly dilly, you can be queen.
Ruby.
True, it is up to everyone else too to call out the derogatory comments of a certain group, if mess’s with Stu site, and seems to be reducing his commentators,
maybe that is the purpose.
An indirect attack on Stu’s site, hoping all h..l will break loose and then his site will be banned,
However Having managed to recognise antagonism it is worst it is best, to keep it in that slot, insults and goading are indeed the lowest form of wit and intelligence.
You have been really good at trying not to be goaded as much as you did, I take my hat of to you, well done Ruby.
Let the trouble makers on Stu’s site , stew in their own juices.
The progress of Queen Elizabeth’s mortal remains is taking on the faux religiosity the established powers will mine for every sentimental nugget.
Requiem aeternam regina Elizabetha…but just remember she was the pivot of a system caging and confining Scotland’s people and their primordial interests.
Sentiment clouds reason.
Ruby says
“I’ve noticed quite a lot of nasty stuff”
At last, confirmation that Ruby DOES read her own posts.
But to be serious for a mo. One of the worst offenders on here, and probably the most persistent (prolific?) offender on here, greetin crocodile tears of faux outrage.
Our collective intelligence really has been insulted now!
Merganser.
Excellent new word ditty. I like its humour.
And perhaps not so far from the truth.
Every- body that works in the devolved government has to swear an oath to the queen as now the king,
As for kings v queens an queens v kings in any other sense it seems to be a government policy across all parties, north and south,
None seem to recognise which is king and which is queen when asked,
Alf Baird 9:59
Thanks for your reply.
I fail to see its relevance to the matter under discussion (the Brexit referendum). Nothing short-circuits the elites like a referendum.
As it happens, the elites deployed every tool in their arsenal to get the result they wanted, but were thwarted when a majority of UK voters voted for Leave.
Then again, perhaps you are asserting that it is only the cringing colonised status of Scotland that delivered a Remain majority here. That might make sense in the context of your Scotland-as-colony theory. In fact, you might just convert me to your cause if you start to deploy that argument against the “dragged screaming by the hair out of the EU against our will” brigade.
Scotland voted Remain in the referendum cos we’re a fearty colony has an intriguing feel of truth about it.
@John Main 6.44 pm
Well quite….the cunt caller in chief clutching her pearls and tone policing the BTL comments is quite something isn’t it? It’s long been apparent that self awareness and the individual concerned are two circles that intersect at no point in the Venn diagram of life.
It wasn’t that long ago she was busily and repeatedly daring Rev Stu to ban her for failing to abide by his strict injunction not to refer to me even indirectly. Oddly, she kept copying and pasting his post about it, almost as if flouting it was some badge of honour.
I’d scrupulously abided by Stu’s directive in spite of the continual provocations. It made no difference of course, as Stu probably had better stuff to do, but since the threat wasn’t followed through, we’re stuck with her pearls of wisdom for the duration.
As we’ve seen recently, she isn’t the only one by any means.
“N.S. Then have the op. dilly dilly, know what I mean? I’ll be the king dilly dilly, you can be queen.”
Merganser, the problem for poor little Nicky is that she has no cojones so can never be King. And if she ever grew any cojones, she wouldnt know what to do with them!
James Che says:
11 September, 2022 at 6:21 pm
Ruby.
True, it is up to everyone else too to call out the derogatory comments of a certain group, if mess’s with Stu site, and seems to be reducing his commentators,
Stu is moderating this thread so nobody will need to call out derogatory comments. I don’t think this is a site for women. At least there don’t seem to be many posting here. I couldn’t believe what John Main said to Fionon and Dorothy Devine.
Should Mia be daft enough to post here she will be subjected to abuse re the lenghth of her posts.
What I don’t understand is if you believe someone is a ‘know nothing’ why would you bother reading their posts?
Is it just so you can be an abusive smart arse? It’s all very ugly.
Whatever it is I’m pretty fed-up with this site.
Andy Ellis says:
11 September, 2022 at 7:02 pm
@John Main 6.44 pm
Well quite….the cunt caller in chief clutching her pearls and tone policing the BTL comments is quite something isn’t it? It’s long been apparent that self awareness and the individual concerned are two circles that intersect at no point in the Venn diagram of life.
It wasn’t that long ago she was busily and repeatedly daring Rev Stu to ban her for failing to abide by his strict injunction not to refer to me even indirectly. Oddly, she kept copying and pasting his post about it, almost as if flouting it was some badge of honour.
I’d scrupulously abided by Stu’s directive in spite of the continual provocations. It made no difference of course, as Stu probably had better stuff to do, but since the threat wasn’t followed through, we’re stuck with her pearls of wisdom for the duration.
As we’ve seen recently, she isn’t the only one by any means.
I think if you look back you will find you were banned from referring to me even indirectly. Stu was fed up with ‘your fuckin playground shit’
Everytime you complain about being called a cunt it makes my day! At least something has hit home! Score!
John Main says:
11 September, 2022 at 6:44 pm
Ruby says
“I’ve noticed quite a lot of nasty stuff”
At last, confirmation that Ruby DOES read her own posts.
But to be serious for a mo. One of the worst offenders on here, and probably the most persistent (prolific?) offender on here, greetin crocodile tears of faux outrage.
Our collective intelligence really has been insulted now!
What did you expect that the little woman just cowered in the corned when you were lashing out?
Fuck that!
Ruby 7:12 pm
[long suffering sigh]
It’s spelled Fionan, Ruby, not “Fionon”.
Fionan is an Irish name usually applied to a male child or adult, Ruby.
A male has a dick and hairy bawbag, Ruby. Not to be confused with a female, who hasn’t.
An adult, Ruby, is. Naw, let’s not rush things. You’ll be needing a wee breather. Baby steps and that.
John Main says:
11 September, 2022 at 7:40 pm
Ruby 7:12 pm
[long suffering sigh]
It’s spelled Fionan, Ruby, not “Fionon”.
Fionan is an Irish name usually applied to a male child or adult, Ruby.
A male has a dick and hairy bawbag, Ruby. Not to be confused with a female, who hasn’t.
An adult, Ruby, is. Naw, let’s not rush things. You’ll be needing a wee breather. Baby steps and that.
Definitely getting a ‘domestic abuser’ profile from this one.
There’s always going to be something wrong.
Long suffering sigh! Cant you do anything right woman look at that fork it isn’t straight!
Mark Boyle seems to have read enough of the fake history books to pull off endless strings of tedious deceptions. Of course, we can’t rule out the possibility that he actually believes the crap.
He talks about feeling in Ireland after 1916 and the widespread fury many felt towards Irish who killed other Irishmen. That’s selective and deceptive, in line with his usual victim blaming, when it would take very little effort to establish that there was more fury at British rule and British repression, and that many Irishmen were furious to see their political leaders accept British terms and dominion status.
He compares all this to the experience of the Vietnamese (or Viet Cong) after the Tet Offensive, telling us that the period represented some sort of nadir. This is the sort of crap they print in what are called history books, handing out degrees and Doctorates to those able to regurgitate it whilst blinking and managing to keep a straight face at the same time.
The nadir in both countries was reached when independence was achieved and the deplorable colonisers were sent packing; in Ireland that was over 30 years after 1916. But it takes an uneducated person — rather than an indoctrinated one — to know these sort of things and see them clearly.
Fury in Ireland, as any uneducated person will tell you, had roots in the hundreds of years of torture and genocidal crimes against humanity that the country suffered under British rule, not least the famine which decimated the population by about half (yes, another of the “old tropes”, as you scandalously like to refer to them).
Instead of given emphasis to that, you again choose to focus on consequences of victimhood that reflect badly on the victims themselves, like the violent behaviour of those terrible Sinn Fein types. And sure enough, some bad men behaved badly on both sides in Ireland and in Vietnam, if that’s your despicable point.
History will forgive the brave Irish and the Vietnamese; standing up to the cunts of history often comes at a price. But history won’t forgive the scandalous British and the savages who want to hide the truth of their crimes in the world to this day.
@John Main 7.40 pm
As Wodehouse famously observed ‘It is never difficult to distinguish between with a Scotsman with a grievance and a ray of sunshine’ similarly it’s never difficult to distinguish between a charlatan falsely playing the misogyny card and someone connected to reality.
Still “Ruby” could be anyone of either sex…that’s the thing about snivelling anonymous online cowards. They only dare come out with this kind of shit because they’re confident trolling safely from under their bridge has zero consequences.
FFS We have weeks of nauseatring english royalist Propaganda to suffer yet. The 24/7 blanket coverage of know yoru place peasants is too much to stomach. I am off camping to where there no fucking English Press and Media.
It looks like the undemocratic Fascist Russian Empire will collapse before the undemocratic Fascist British one.
Andy Ellis says:
11 September, 2022 at 8:04 pm
Still “Ruby” could be anyone of either sex…that’s the thing about snivelling anonymous online cowards. They only dare come out with this kind of shit because they’re confident trolling safely from under their bridge has zero consequences.
Right back at you Ellis. You could be anyone of either sex. It’s not as if you’ve posted a photograph any form of ID, your address or your date of birth.
@Hatuey
What I have read about the Easter Rising in 1916 has said that while the initial rising and the fighting was not necessarily widely supported, or at any rate not universally, the vindictive response of the British authorities, in systematically executing its leaders, rapidly turned around feelings for many and aroused great sympathy for them. John Redmond and John Dillon, of the IPP, appealed for clemency, and even Edward Carson warned that the Irish people did not want “vengeance” as he described it, and for any reaction to be done with “due deliberation”, and not “in a moment of temporary excitement”. This eventually led to the Asquith government halting the executions.
Some of their statements can be read here.
link to hansard.millbanksystems.com
@Hatuey says:11 September, 2022 at 7:55 pm
“History will forgive the brave Irish and the Vietnamese; standing up to the cunts of history often comes at a price. But history won’t forgive the scandalous British and the savages who want to hide the truth of their crimes in the world to this day”
WTF, are there two Hatuey’s posting on here?
Hardly any time since one of the Hatuey’s was posting along the lines of:
“But history won’t forgive the scandalous UK rainians and the savages who want to hide the truth of their crimes in the world to this day”
Go on now, Hatuey. Tell us how I misrepresent you. Here’s what you need to post to set the record straight:
“History will forgive the brave UK rainians; standing up to the cunts of history often comes at a price.”
I thank you for the link, Jeremy, and don’t doubt what you’re saying is true. We aren’t going out too far on a limb when we suppose that Irish resentment and fury would have largely been directed towards the British and their cohorts who essentially destroyed the country and half the population with it. Only a despicable and shameless cretin would suggest otherwise.
But the independence movement is accustomed to that sort of twisting of history and facts to suit the pro-British colonial narrative. We know how it works.
Instead of focusing on the obvious and indeed massive costs of being fleeced by Britain, poverty, crime, health, unemployment, cultural obliteration, etc., we are supposed to sit feeling bad about the words we use to describe their antics.
It’s a very typical propaganda bubble. We are in it and that makes seeing it difficult but let’s be clear that those who hound us on here and elsewhere, with their derogatory slants and their degrading attacks, are doing Britain’s bidding — knowingly or not — and should be treated with maximum contempt.
John Main, as a bare minimum I require that those I engage with are able to string a coherent point and sentence together.
I know you’d love to have an exchange with me of some sort but, for me at least, standards matter.
Would it help if I suggested a couple of books?
Hatuey says:
11 September, 2022 at 7:55 pm
Mark Boyle seems to have read enough of the fake history books to pull off endless strings of tedious deceptions. Of course, we can’t rule out the possibility that he actually believes the crap.
He talks about feeling in Ireland after 1916 and the widespread fury many felt towards Irish who killed other Irishmen. That’s selective and deceptive, in line with his usual victim blaming, when it would take very little effort to establish that there was more fury at British rule and British repression, and that many Irishmen were furious to see their political leaders accept British terms and dominion status.
You are confusing the actual history of events – analytical and verifiable via contemporary journals and papers of the period – with the pulp propaganda sanitised and greenwashed history pulped into several unwitting generations via the Irish government and the Christian Brothers stranglehold of education for decades – largely to take everyone’s minds off the godawful mess “the purple and the pinstripe” as Geldof called them were making of the place – a cross between Franco’s Spain and Hoxha’s Albania run by the cast of Father Ted.
Or what Michael Fogarty scathingly called a banana republic without even the bananas.
Fury in Ireland, as any uneducated person will tell you, had roots in the hundreds of years of torture and genocidal crimes against humanity that the country suffered under British rule, not least the famine which decimated the population by about half (yes, another of the “old tropes”, as you scandalously like to refer to them).
I’m so glad to see you acknowledge them as “uneducated”, in much the same way the “uneducated” will tell us that the blacks take all the jobs and housing and other suck knee-jerk reactionism of the lower orders – salt of the earth, gawd bless ’em!
And in Ireland’s case that it was okay to murder your wife with the help of your neighbours if you all thought she was actually a fairy and you’d only go down for manslaughter for it c/o the Irish courts (the Bridget Cleary affair). But I’m sure you’ll convince yourself that events like that, plus the Magdalene launderies, the mass graves of “bundling” babies and all those other details of Ireland’s less than glorious independent history were all somehow “Britain’s fault”.
Oh, by the way, Britain’s “worst absentee landlord ever” rule of Ireland wouldn’t have even lasted anywhere near as long as it did without the mass connivance of thousands of the natives way over and above the descendents of the plantations to keep control of the big soggy sponge. Especially during the Famine: those who suffered most never lived to tell the tale, whereas those playing the Tottie Card ceaselessly today are largely the descendents of those who helped export food from Ireland whilst their countrymen starved. Yeah, truth hurts, doesn’t it?
Feel free to pop another vein as you get yourself worked up into a frenzy on another fix of the old Victimhood – so much better than dealing with reality, ain’t it? Thankfully there’s the likes of Mary E. Daly doing a grand job in Ireland of ensuring future generations will be innoculated from swallowing such offal.
Stay sharp, Ellis; the movement needs you.
More observant types will have noticed in the vid :
royal dude trying to “off” an annoying blonde
nothing which ever happens forreal
(The real joke is the implicit reference to the gold standard while we now use fiat.)
more chitty/kiddy bang bangs – the infamous child catcher
link to youtube.com
yay, it’s Uncle Jimmy
howsaboutthatthen
Reminiscences : camping trips at Balmoral, up Lochnagar, round the campfire
Big Phil, Louis M, Uncle Jimmy, Andy and Charles
“… one time, in Bang-kok, there were these 3 … ”
Eyes wide like saucers.
just thinking : if royal sycophancy had a calorific value, all our energy concerns would be over.
– giant hamster wheels, sized for a human; as you turn it, you are played GSTQ, Handel, Nimrod etc with videos of the Queen – the excess energy generated can be used to power britains kettles. England, for once, could become an energy exporter.
strange day – the first 120 articles on the daily mail to tell me the queen is still dead, then – they have caught the IRA bomber who did the arndale centre
Some of the fucking pish on the telly yesterday was mind-boggling (don’t just switch it all off) – Paul McCartney was on saying he was mates with the Queen and they were both into George Formby … ? Whit! While musicologists have pored over the Beatles songwriting brilliance, that influence has never been noticed.
“say some pish about the queen”
we owe the queen a lot – she split the atom and discovered penicillin, also invented total football, designed the wing for the eurofighter … yada yada yada
thank god I still have a dvd collection, now I just have to find that old pc in the attic that has a dvd player
once the queen is planted properly we can forgo the sympathy with the human aspect of a wee wummin dying and get back into the matter of the criminal mafia organisation she fronted up, you know, that thing “we” are trying to escape from
LOlz Boyle. This is a walk in the park for me, no veins are under any sort of pressure, except perhaps through laughing at your obvious meltdown.
We have at least established that you’re an anti-Irish racist of the pro-British ilk, and that represents progress. Nobody who reads what you’ve type above could be left in any doubt about that.
You’ve picked on the workers who exported food from Ireland a few times and I must advise you that doing that makes you look decidedly stupid. I expected more from you than banal points like that, sincerely.
Are you sparing the Indians who exported food from say India during the famine of 1943 for any particular reason? Is it just the Irish you want to tar with that sort of brush? There are undoubtedly many more examples of workers doing that sort of thing. The bastards eh…
(Please, don’t take that an an invitation to talk about the railways Britain built in India, btw, laughing at pathetic arguments like that definitely would take a toll on my veins.)
I think I’m done with you. I’ve reduced you to the sort of moron that plasters obscenities underneath Telegraph articles. You’ve really lost the rag on here tonight. Honestly. You have.
Another lightweight.
Hatuey says:
11 September, 2022 at 10:48 pm
LOlz Boyle. This is a walk in the park for me, no veins are under any sort of pressure, except perhaps through laughing at your obvious meltdown.
Translated: you’ve spat the dummy again.
We have at least established that you’re an anti-Irish racist of the pro-British ilk, and that represents progress. Nobody who reads what you’ve type above could be left in any doubt about that.
“We”? Is this the Royal “we”? Or is it you and your pretend friends who log on here to give you “haunners?”
You’ve picked on the workers who exported food from Ireland a few times and I must advise you that doing that makes you look decidedly stupid. I expected more from you than banal points like that, sincerely.
I pick on them in much the same way I do all moral and class backstabbers who turned their backs on their own – albeit those in Ireland’s towns and cities held the “bog people” with contempt – another wee detail of Irish cultural history airbrushed out.
Ireland would never have been under the Union Jack were it not for the Irish attitude of “I’m Alright Jack” – same as with all empires where a tiny group somehow “subjegates” the majority.
Are you sparing the Indians who exported food from say India during the famine of 1943 for any particular reason? Is it just the Irish you want to tar with that sort of brush? There are undoubtedly many more examples of workers doing that sort of thing. The bastards eh…
(Please, don’t take that an an invitation to talk about the railways Britain built in India, btw, laughing at pathetic arguments like that definitely would take a toll on my veins.)
Actually the famine relief efforts in India in the middle of the chaos of the largest war in world history – too late as they were – proved a massive lesson which proved crucial in alleviating those rescued from the concentration camps and the massive post-war European refugee crisis, but that’s another matter – one since it doesn’t involve opportunities to whine at “the wicked British” doubtless escaped your limited attention.
Closer to home the Channel Isles (then under Nazi occupation) and even the Isle Of Man (which was not) both came close to starvation during the latter parts of the war (in the latter case due to bureaucratic incompetence – but some Manx of that generation remain bitter about it). As in all wars, things go wrong and civilians pay the price.
Eighty years on we have the luxury of hindsight and superior technology (not least of all communications) to tut-tut our ancestors, but those of us mature enough to handle such matters are able to look upon history’s darker chapters with a broader mindset than merely categoring everyone into “goodies” and “baddies” like it was a Disney film.
I think I’m done with you. I’ve reduced you to the sort of moron that plasters obscenities underneath Telegraph articles. You’ve really lost the rag on here tonight. Honestly. You have.
Another lightweight.
Whereas you are merely a shiteweight – stick to Pie & Bovril, it’s all you’re fit for.
During the Irish famine only 10% of food was exported. The reason for this was tenants being unable to pay their rent to English landlords.
They sold some of their crops to stay on their land, inevitably some were exported. They had no choice. Lord Palmerston evicted 2000 tenants. So the Irish were both starved and eventually evicted.
Yet yer man Boyle wants to blame the Irish themselves for that!
On the actual politics of Ireland. It sounds like he has completely fabricated his anti Irish view of their history. The Brits were murdering bastards. They should never have been there in the first place. Sure some Irish were killed , probably for siding with the Brits. This is inevitable in an armed conflict.
It happened in India as well. But its total deflection from the reality. That is the systematic wholesale invasion, slaughter and eviction of the indigenous Irish by the Brits.
Thankfully we all have access to the truth.
The Mark Boyle meltdown continues, as I’m sure everyone keeping up with this exchange will appreciate.
One has to wonder what an apologist for British attrocities in Ireland and India might be doing on a pro-Scottish-Independence website.
Check this nugget;
“the famine relief efforts in India in the middle of the chaos of the largest war in world history […] proved a massive lesson which proved crucial in alleviating those rescued from the concentration camps and the massive post-war European refugee crisis…”
Three million people “proved” to die in India during that particular famine, at least (some say up to six million). Their deaths “proved” to be totally avoidable and totally unnecessary.
I’m tempted to ask what “massive lesson” he’s talking about — deprive millions of people of food and they die? — but I don’t want to further encourage the nutter with my attention.
Truly, by a long shot, the biggest crackpot in here.
Albert Kidd musta really fucked Biscuity Boyle’s mind up on 3rd May 1986.
For the uninformed –
Hearts only needed 1 point to win the league on the final day in Dundee; Celtic needed to win in Paisley and for Hearts to lose to stand a chance of winning on goal difference or goals scored.
Celtic led 4-0 at Love Street at half-time, while at Dens Park it was 0-0.
Celtic scored a 5th and final goal before the hour.
And then came a moment that’s impossible to forget, as I listened to David Francey’s commentary while working my Saturday job.
“Here at Dens Park there’s still no scoring, so Hearts have this vital pint that could win them the title and how the crowd know it.
But it’s a corner to Dundee over on that far side.
A high and curling ball.
It’s nodded down by Brown!
It’s in the net!
A goal! A goal there by Albert Kidd…the unthinkable has happened.
With 7 minutes of this game left for play, it’s Dundee 1 Heart of Midlothian 0″
Kidd would score a second in the 87th minute, at which point the greetin’ radges from Edinburgh invaded the pitch for likesy no apparent reason. No punches were thrown or that, they just wandered around like zombies chumming each other home ae the Spider Flats, ken?
Celtic won the league on goal difference, +29 v +26.
“Who do you think you were kidding, Mr Mercer, when you thought the league was won?” – Flanagan & Allen
link to youtube.com
GSAK x
‘The History Boys’ are fighting again!
I loved this exchange
Hatuey : You’re a lightweight!
Mark Boyle: You’re a shiteweight!
🙂
Confused says:
11 September, 2022 at 10:28 pm
just thinking : if royal sycophancy had a calorific value, all our energy concerns would be over.
Excellent post Confused! It’s quite scary the power the media have to manipulate people?
Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
and like a torrent rush
Rebellious Scots to crush!
God save the King!
These days Wade might have a problem finding rebellious Scots to crush.
To Sturgeon, Salmond and all the soft nat rogues, tick! tock! tick! tock! tick!
Hatuey says:
12 September, 2022 at 1:40 am
One has to wonder what an apologist for British attrocities in Ireland and India might be doing on a pro-Scottish-Independence website.
It would seem without knowing anything about history people are asking what Mark Boyle, Andy Ellis, John Main & Chas might be doing on a pro-Scottish-Independence website.
It would seem without knowing anything about history people are asking what Mark Boyle, Andy Ellis, John Main & Chas might be doing on a pro-Scottish-Independence website.
Oh that’s an easy one. Attempting to school those willing to learn about the history they unashamedly admit they know nothing about. Accepting that some are a lost cause and revel in their ignorance. Doing our best to ensure the legacy of this place isn’t soiled by moon howling conspiracy theorists, or chip on their shoulder “we wuz robbed and colonized, it’s they nasty furriners wot dun it” nativists, or sophomoric Byres Road bolsheviki bleating about how Vlad and his nice bunch of lads are just misunderstood. and anyway it, and everything else, is all the Great Satan’s fault.
They’re as big a threat to achieving independence as dyed in the wool yoons, because they only serve to turn persuadable “soft No” voters off. Nobody sane buys in to their victim claiming and their bonkers world view. They’re the pub bores of the movement, sitting at the corner of the bar muttering to themselves and about as relevant.
@Hatuey says:12 September, 2022 at 1:40 am
“The Mark Boyle meltdown continues, as I’m sure everyone keeping up with this exchange will appreciate.”
This exchange more “keeping you up” than “keeping up”, Hatuey? 1:40 am, Good Grief!
Check this nugget;
“Three million people “proved” to die in India during that particular famine”
Ah, the eternal satisfaction of arguing over something long gone, the fault of people long deid, and affecting other people long deid too.
So much easier than dealing with contemporary reality.
How many people starving today, as a result of the current war of aggressive imperialism that cannot be named?
How many posts on here from Hatuey, enthusiastically cheering that imperialist aggressor, and applauding the destruction of the victim?
Mark Boyle, I am afraid you are in error, sir.
“Shiteweight” doesn’t do Hatuey justice. Too long, too many syllables. Ditch the “weight”.
@Confused 10:28 pm
As I already pointed out, there is plenty of telly (and radio) where you would hardly know the Queen has died. If I can find this content, then so can everybody else.
I really just don’t get this narrative that people are being “force fed” a diet of non-stop royalism.
The only people that I can see this would apply to are those unfortunate nursing home occupants who spend every day propped up around a blaring TV.
That’s not you, Confused, or any other poster on here.
“Doing our best..” – Ellis
‘Saint’ Andrew keeps outing himself, the stoopid cunt.
Big Jock says:
12 September, 2022 at 12:08 am
During the Irish famine only 10% of food was exported. The reason for this was tenants being unable to pay their rent to English landlords.
Dear oh dear, not the old “it was only 10% of food, mister!” myth again, which centres round discarding the likes of oats as somehow counting on the spurious grounds it was only livestock that ate it, when in reality porridge was as much a staple fare of the poor as the potato (there’s another excuse that these were “winter oats” not “summer oats” for human consumption – total rubbish!). The grim reality was £100 000 worth of food was merrily exported monthly throughout the famine, about £6 million in today’s money.
One of the reasons for the appalling death toll of the famine was the large numbers who sought refuge and a guaranteed meal by joining the workhouses – which were always hotspots for epidemics (one of those “little details of history” that gets omitted when taught in schools – the role of the workhouse to exterminate the “excess” poor via “natural” means). The staple food of the workhouse? Gruel made from … oats! Yep, those same “oats” that somehow “don’t count”.
Dr Christine Kinealy of the University of Liverpool in the Spring 1997 issue of History Ireland noted that 4000 vessels carrying foodstuffs sailed from Irish ports in 1847 and almost 10000 calves – a 33% increase in a year. Most damning of all, 1,336,220 gallons of grain alcohol was exported – showing that right in the middle of a nationwide famine, Irish wheat was being squandered to make booze for export rather than feeding the destitute, all of which required massive local participation in being, as they say “accessories to the fact”.
As AJP Taylor rightly said, the Famine turned much of Ireland into a Belsen. The role of part of its citizenry in aiding and abetting the worst worked example of “laissez faire” economics in action thankfully now is starting to be addressed by a generation no longer tied to the old founding myths nationalists the world over like to comfort themselves with, especially the cult of victimhood.
Andy Ellis says:
Oh that’s an easy one. Attempting to school those willing to learn about the history they unashamedly admit they know nothing about. Accepting that some are a lost cause and revel in their ignorance.
People don’t login here to learn about history. If they did it would be lot better if there was less ‘dark sarcasm in the classroom’ and if the ‘professors’ weren’t always fighting.
Andy Ellis says:
Doing our best to ensure the legacy of this place isn’t soiled by moon howling conspiracy theorists, or chip on their shoulder “we wuz robbed and colonized,
That’s Stu’s job not yours. Who do you think you are?
@Andy Ellis 9:13
Good post.
Scottish Indy will be won by grown ups, pragmatically dealing with contemporary reality.
Sulky adolescents, eternally banging on about the past, had their shot and failed big time. Time for them to step aside.
@”Scott”
I very much doubt most alert readers apart from the moon howling claque who continue to soil BTL comments here pay any attention to the incoherent rantings of a creepy as fuck stalker like you “Scott”.
I may not always agree with what John Main, Mark Boyle and Chas and others say, but at least they aren’t knee jerk foul mouthed victim-claiming conspiracy theorists, cunt-callers and paranoid pearl clutching weirdos labelling anyone who disagrees with their puerile world view as a plant, or insists it’s all the work of one individual with multiple ID’s.
@Ruby
People don’t login here to learn about history. If they did it would be lot better if there was less ‘dark sarcasm in the classroom’ and if the ‘professors’ weren’t always fighting.
Not everyone is as proud of their ignorance as you clearly are though Ruby. I’m sure there are many alert readers who have learnt things through discussion on here, including me. It takes a certain openness of mind you quite clearly lack. You’r laughable attempts to tone police BTL comments on here and be room monitor have been laughed at before. I’m surprised you’re still trying it, particularly given your own MO.
That’s Stu’s job not yours. Who do you think you are?
I think I’m a person entitled to their view on here, and to express it. I also know I’m a nicer person than you, because you’ve repeatedly shown over months that you’re a nasty piece of work and a stain on the independence movement.
I’m not trying to do Stu’s job for him: his site, his rules. If this place finished tomorrow, at least I’d have the satisfaction of knowing I didn’t leave the floor clear for know-nothing dunderheids like you and your loathsome mates. It’d be a shame for WoS to bow out with the likes of yon as its legacy.
Hatuey on SkidMark: “…I’ve reduced you to the sort of moron that plasters obscenities underneath Telegraph articles.”
Hoho! Well said, but….but… Arms Industry Andy says SkidMark is ‘magisterial’…??
Shome mishtake shurely? LOL.
John Main says:
12 September, 2022 at 9:48 am
Sulky adolescents, eternally banging on about the past, had their shot and failed big time. Time for them to step aside.
Are you referring to the ‘history professors’ attempting to school those willing to learn about the past? Hardly sulky adolescents more boring old bodachs who can’t agree on what the true facts of the past actually are.
Andy Ellis says:
12 September, 2022 at 9:50 am
@”Scott”
I very much doubt *added on drivel that just out him even more*
—
St Andrew, patron saint of his own inner monologue, likes to project.
He’s always cross.
I do not want to learn history!
Any chance of a bit of Art History?
Ruby says:
12 September, 2022 at 10:22 am
I do not want to learn history!
Any chance of a bit of Art History?
—
Mona Lisa is a self-portrait.
The mouth never looked right because the artist, the unknown ‘Leonardo’ da VINCI, had only ever seen it in reflection.
And whenever they saw the painting in reflection to see if it looked like them it always needed redone, until finally settling on something that isn’t actually enigmatic at all. They couldn’t ask anyone for help or their secret would be out…
There’s a similar thought regarding Van Gogh’s ear – the artist didn’t want identified, and our ears are as unique as our fingerprints. Only after death was this VVG known – anecdotal claims from Paris post-mortem about the great ‘man’ are what they were…she could just as easily have been a woman.
L S Lowry and his shite paintings inspired Brian & Michael to have St Winifred’s School choir accompany them on TOTP in 1978.
[“All art is quite useless, according to Oscar Wilde” Endless Art – A House link to youtube.com ]
*Ears are hard to do properly if just inventing them.*
@ Ruby & Scott
Some classic Lowryesque Art History from WOS archives.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Looks like I’ve triggered a few bampots…
Oh well.
FYI Ruby, I’m not a historian. I don’t even regard history as a proper subject. Anyone can read that sort of crap and pretend they know stuff. But you might want to bear in mind that history is considered art, i.e. of the arts faculty.
Dan says:
12 September, 2022 at 11:01 am
@ Ruby & Scott
Some classic Lowryesque Art History from WOS archives.
—
Allez, allez, Oh…
I see the pope holds NATO at least partly responsible for the war, with its “barking” on Russia’s border.
That’s a bit awkward, isn’t it?
Can we assume he speaks for God too? It looks like RoS and I could be in line for sainthood or something.
link to bbc.co.uk
An indicator of the truly serious «struggle» ahead.
The wokey wimpy SNP is unlikely to be part of that.
It does seem that you CAN fool the many, ALL of the time, in Ukania.
«A love for tradition has never weakened a nation, indeed it has strengthened nations in their hour of peril».
Winston S. Churchill
What this stage managed spectacle is actually all about.
Fetch my weeping vase, slave!
A productive morning on Wings BTL.
First, art trashed, courtesy of Scott (and an insight into Da Vinci’s mirror writing shenanigans too). Scott, did you know that Scott Adams can’t draw mouths?
And now history consigned to the dustbin of, well, history I guess. Hatuey, our heartfelt thanks.
Finally, an end to the eternal banging on about the past on here.
[chuckles]
I’m surprised to see Mark Boyle had the nerve to make another comment. I didn’t read it.
And I’m surprised Wings is allowing a guy to comment after he so casually dismissed the deaths of 6 million innocents on the basis that some “massive lesson” was learned. He didn’t tell us what that very expensive lesson was.
Andy Ellis who cares for nothing other than how everything reflects on Wings and the Independence Movement must be crushed by this. It’s possibly one of the most racist and inhuman comments I’ve ever read on here and I’m quite embarrassed to see it still there.
I can only guess what Asians and other ethnic minorities would make of it. Would it make them more likely to support independence or less likely?
What do you think, Andy, this is your bag?
”
Ruby says:
11 September, 2022 at 7:51 pm
John Main says:
11 September, 2022 at 7:40 pm
Ruby 7:12 pm
[long suffering sigh]
It’s spelled Fionan, Ruby, not “Fionon”.
Fionan is an Irish name usually applied to a male child or adult, Ruby.
A male has a dick and hairy bawbag, Ruby. Not to be confused with a female, who hasn’t.”
Well at least John Main has contributed one useful fact to the blog. I didnt know Fionan (with stress accent on the ‘a’) was an actual male name. As my username, it is comprised of my first name and the first initial of my surname and it is entirely accidental that it is also a name in Ireland. And I only learned of this fact by Main through Ruby’s comment as I just scroll on by anything by Main, Ellis, Boyle and one or two others.
So glad I dont have a hairy bawbag to worry about! [rolls on floor, sides splitting with laughter]
I agree, Ruby, there is some misogyny by a certain group on this blog as well as the insults and slights cast on those, male or female, who attempt to discuss current affairs and the various avenues towards regaining Indy.
And there are various routes as Alex Salmond pointed out often when the section 30 for Indyref1 was being negotiated. We should be discussing all of these routes as some will be more suited to current social/political context than others and these are not set in stone, they can be quite fluid.Right now, my feeling is Salvo and the CoR are most definitely the best routes to indy.
I also think that even though he didnt win indyref 1, Alex was highly successful in bringing about a complete sea-change in peoples’ attitudes towards Scotland’s fight to regain her independence, in Scotland, in the UK and internationally.He brought the Yes movement out of the nutty fringe and into mainstream politics and society.
Yes Rub
Ottomanboi
So what exactly do you object to?
People freely exercising their rights to participate, in parallel with people freely exercising their rights to give it a body swerve?
People capable of comprehending that it is possible to be an independent country and a monarchy?
People with different opinions to yours?
Do tell us all what your entitled aspirations for our country and nation are, so that we can all get aligned with a program that suits you.
Right now, you just come across as a constantly sneering, scoffing, negative jeremiah.
@ Dan at 11.01: the Rev’s Jim Murphy cartoon – filling in [not] for Chris Cairns.
Happy days brought back reading the cheerful, humorous and kindly comments btl including Robert Peffers.
Perhaps between written posts the Rev might reprise Chris’s output?
Ottomanboi, I don’t see how the article you linked to hints at a serious struggle ahead when the majority of those featured were tourists.
Unless, of course, tourists are allowed to vote in a future referendum… oh wait, actually it looks like they are if they claim they’re resident.
You’re right, we are fucked.
John Main says:
12 September, 2022 at 12:55 pm
A productive morning on Wings BTL.
First, art trashed, courtesy of Scott (and an insight into Da Vinci’s mirror writing shenanigans too). Scott, did you know that Scott Adams can’t draw mouths?
—
Scott Adams can draw mouths.
Which Scott Adams are you on about?
We can all gawp in slack-jawed incredulity at the twisted logic of Fionan, who claims that posts critical of her are misogynistic, despite her posting under a male name.
Here’s a recent post from Fionan, which I took exception to as being a little OTT (and dare I write it, hysterical). But it’s not misogynistic, coming from Fionan it can’t be, so according to the logic of Wings BTL, this is acceptable fare:
“this is a woman who ordered her daughter-in-law to be murdered … a nasty piece of work”
Truly I am learning a lot on here today. Art is rubbish, history is bunk, diss those you dislike as murderers and that’s just dandy.
FFS, things really were better even as recently as this time last week.
Dan and Sarah, thank you for reminding me of Mr Peffers and his incredible knowledge and all the Chris Cairns cartoons – happy, heady days!
Wings provided so many nuggets of information and took one in so many directions. Sadly the site has been high jacked by those intent on destruction.
Fionan, your last comment raised a smile – hope you have recovered from rolling on the floor!
I’m not sure I can take much more of the black tie brigade on the telly – This Morning sporting the mourning gear , a 2 minute silence at one of the noisiest sporting events one can attend, Snetterton.
When you take the Colonial position of trying to educate the natives in their own country.
From the alt.nat party.
link to albaparty.org
When will Scots kick this bad habit of public fawning*
*To fawn. intransitive verb.To exhibit affection or attempt to please, as a dog does by wagging its tail, whining, or cringing.
When the British monarchy have had enough of little Britain they have ran to for cover and to recover into the Arms of Coothie Scots, Not for one generation but for 3 generations of British monarchs.
Not to some secluded private estate in England with plenty of body guards, but to the Scots, perhaps the Scottish blood running in their veins is Strongest and always brings them home,
To those of the history is bunk persuasion.
«In a sense, nothing makes the case more powerfully for the absolutely essential place of HISTORY and the humanities in the university, in society, and in the global community than the present situation in Iraq. Whatever one thinks of the merits of the war or the reasons for undertaking it, it is palpably true that we entered into it without fully comprehending the character of the country, the varieties of its religious convictions and political philosophies. To the extent that this is true, American society and government has never needed the kind of historical, linguistic, ethical, and cultural instruction offered by the humanities more crucially than at the present time. The exercise of power without a sense of ethical responsibility is dangerous; the exercise of power without historical knowledge is a prescription for disaster.»
link to historians.org
Folks. I posted a link a few weeks ago when Boyle was first touting his bigoted version of the Irish famine. There’s plenty of links on it explaining in detail of what happened.
link to ireland-calling.com, You don’t need much more thought on it.
Trevelyan was a twat whig. Trevelyan thought the Irish were lazy and didn’t deserve help. He thought more about free markets- there’s your answer right there. He also said, “the famine was a means for removing surplus population” Nice chap just like Boyle.
Also, I would rather take the view of the veteran ITV news reporter, Mike Nicholson, an Englishman, a well-regarded ITV reporter than Boyle who has posted absolute crap about Ireland and its people during the famine. An English view of the irish famine- can’t inbed the link -sorry
Also, here’s a link to this Dr Christine Kenealy that Boyle quotes discussing “The Great Hunger” famine and stuff.
link to thewildgeese.irish
She says nothing about the peasant farmers being to blame.
I don’t see Boyle providing any links to his warped mind fuck, do you? So, you don’t need to bother with his bigotry.
Since when were the poor peasant farmers exporters of crops?
Fuck sake Boyle get a grip.
It is also rather amazing to realise the the British monarchy feel they are not truly a monarch, king or queen unless they are throned the way of the Scots, with the Stone of Destiny.
They certainly seem to have no faith in old Englands ceremony alone.
Through marriage and inter-marriage, Scots blood is is the British monarchy repeatedly.
Even Mary of Orange was Scottish, a Stuart, at the time of the union.
Just watching some of the cringey royal nonsense going on in Edinburgh. Happy to see one brave guy shouting to end the monarchy directly at Charlie coburg. Sadly saw the same guy getting dragged to the ground, so I only hope he is ok, as brute force was used. Our freedom to dissent is being forcibly removed. ‘bow before the so-called ‘king’ or else’. Just like North Korea.
IF, Charlie boy is truly a defender of democracy, then surely that also means disagreeing.
Have to say, the commentary by the BBC is utter baloney. He said, at one point, all the union flags and saltires. I saw precious few of either on show. The people on the Royal Mile are tourists. It’s just nonsense, utter, utter nonsense, wasting tax payers money. I wish they would all just b****er off back to England, and gie us all some peace.
Tired of all this made-up, pretendy ‘tradition’ utter nonsense in Edinburgh.
link to youtube.com
When 73 year old charlie falls off his throne that obscene deluge of 24/7 propaganda will be repeated all over again. Apologies for ruining your day folks.
link to yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com
And just to cheer you up.
link to newsable.asianetnews.com
Hold the line, folks. The times they are a changing. There’s a sea change in the air. I can feel it in me bones. If you thought the Brit nats had an identity crisis before, you ain’t seen nothing yet. QE2 provided that vital stability and assuredness when all hell was breaking loose around them. Now she’s gone, whose gonna fill her shoes? King Charlie? Prince Billy o Wales? Aye right. Settle down and be patient. Once the royal razzmatazz dies down what then? All he’ll breaks loose, that’s what. Only a matter of time IMHO.
Hatuey says:
12 September, 2022 at 11:05 am
Looks like I’ve triggered a few bampots…
Oh well.
FYI Ruby, I’m not a historian. I don’t even regard history as a proper subject. Anyone can read that sort of crap and pretend they know stuff. But you might want to bear in mind that history is considered art, i.e. of the arts faculty.
Cheers Hatuey!
Now I understand history is Art and all Art is subjective hence history is subjective.
Sorry that I called you an historian it could have been worse I could have called you a bampot.
Is history subjective? That could be an interesting topic for discussion.
Why are historians subjective?
Because certain events happened so long ago, and because sometimes the evidence is incomplete, different historians have different approaches and views about what happened in the past. This is the subjective nature of history. One historian claims an event happened a certain way, while another disagrees completely.
I so do not want to study history.
History of Art is much better.
@Hatuey 12.56 pm
What do you think, Andy, this is your bag?
Why would it be “my bag”? Unless you’re the kind of lackwit who thinks everyone on here who disagrees with your personal views is actually one very busy individual. From someone who just declared upthread that history isn’t a “real” subject, I think your hot take on anything much is pretty suspect. As others have noted recently, there has been something if a sea change in your posts over recent months, from someone who – even if you disagreed with them – was at least worth listening to and engaging with, to the someone who has gone “full moonhowler”.
I mean, I know we’re supposed to live in an age that doesn’t “do” experts any more, but back in the day I never thought I’d see it casually professed BTL in here and lapped up by a section of the claque as though it was fine wine rather than the vomitus of someone with delusions of intellectual adequacy.
All par for the course with a small if voluble minority in here I reckon: if you can accept woo-woo like vaccine denial, “the people of country 404 had it coming”, Scotland is a colony, “them furriners stole our indy”, “folk who flew over Scotland will get the vote”, all we need for indy is for Salvo and the SSRG leadership to real out a proclamation on the steps of Bute House etc. you’ll fall for anything.
The worrying thing not just for the movement, but for the future of any Scottish state when it hopefully comes to pass is that what Voltaire said is true:
“Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices.”
I definitely agree that I wouldn’t like to be living in an independent Scotland ruled by Nicola and her candy floss haired Praetorian guard, but neither would I relish the kind of folk insisting history isn’t a real subject holding sway. Thankfully I’m pretty confident that mainstream Scots treat the views of sundry moonhowlers and fringe conspiracy nutters soiling this place with the same disdain I do.
‘Hatuey says:
12 September, 2022 at 1:40 am
‘The Mark Boyle meltdown continues’…. ‘Truly, by a long shot, the biggest crackpot in here.’
If that is indeed the case then the title is hard-earned against some very stiff competition.
Skimming the endless internecine abuse in these pages one can be assured that the Union is in safe hands
Nurse Murphy is a wonderful work of art.
Some would say ‘my four year old could do better than that’ but then these same people would say the same thing about works of art that sell for £millions.
Jackson Pollock’s current auction record is $58.4 million
Do you know the story of the painting Guernica and what Picasso said to the Nazi Officers who visited his Paris studio?
I was just mentioning that it is not the first time that the British government have had to come and collect there monarch from Scotland,
Just an observation,
Why do you want to see Scotland independent again, and independent of what?
That question is for Andy Ellis age 60 3/4, patron saint of paradoxes.
Hatuey has gone and done it now he’s been labelled ‘Full Moonhowler’
I was just mentioning it was not the first time that the British establishment/government felt insecure bringing a British king or queen to the throne without using the Throning rights and passages of the Scots stone of destiny.
That they do not hold much faith in their old ways and cultures,
That they had to steal a stone from Scots. And then borrow it this time,
Just an observation.
@ James Che and others re the Queen’s bloodline being Scottish – Joanna Cherry’s speech in the Commons yesterday lays it out very clearly that the Queen was a descendant of the Stuarts and the Hanoverian lines, her mother was a Scot, and the Queen chose Scotland for important international meetings.
Joanna referred to “my country” several times – that will have got up the noses of the Unionists!
The speech is on Joanna’s twitter – it is short, very clear in its various pro-Scotland, pro-republic themes, and worth listening to.
@ Fionan at 1.03: “Alex…brought the Yes movement out of the nutty fringe and into mainstream politics and society.”
Precisely. There has been, and is, no going back from this. Every aspect of any subject is always nowadays in the context of independence. It is no longer a strange concept but is totally normal.
Alex had one mandate, the first ever, and put the issue to the touch. It was a black day when he stood aside for M/s Sturgeon who has had 6 or more mandates and can’t/won’t use any of them.
@James Che says:12 September, 2022 at 4:10 pm
“I was just mentioning that it is not the first time that the British government have had to come and collect there monarch from Scotland”
Ah James, but is it? Maybes aye, maybes naw.
We are all now buying into Hatuey’s “subjective history” trope. That kinda rules out any meaningful discussion of the past.
1707, Claim Of Right, Bannockburn, all that historical guff. Oot the windae.
Don’t blame me, take it up with Hatuey.
Sarah,
Much appreciated,
I don’t do twitter or facebook, so problably would have missed that if you had not said, many thanks.
robbo says:
12 September, 2022 at 2:47 pm
Also, here’s a link to this Dr Christine Kenealy that Boyle quotes discussing “The Great Hunger” famine and stuff.
link to thewildgeese.irish
She says nothing about the peasant farmers being to blame.
I don’t see Boyle providing any links to his warped mind fuck, do you? So, you don’t need to bother with his bigotry.
Since when were the poor peasant farmers exporters of crops?
Fuck sake Boyle get a grip.
Another day, another straw man as Robbo takes time away from the nearest puddle to set up some straw men to give himself a self-righteous excuse to throw his toys out of the pram again.
Oh, and another link to another Plastic Paddy webshyte – nice touch!
For those of you wanting to read the article I was actually referring to (never bothered linking to it originally, since those who needed to read it won’t!), it was reprinted over in History Ireland:
link to historyireland.com
I’ll leave it for you to do the reading, but I’ll just draw your attention to what I’d quoted from:
“Significant amounts of food were leaving Ireland during the Famine years. In 1847 alone, the worst year of the Famine, almost 4,000 vessels carried food from Ireland to the major ports of Britain, that is, Bristol, Glasgow, Liverpool and London.”
Oh, and the wee epitaph she gives at the end:
“The Earl of Clarendon, who had succeeded Bessborough as Lord Lieutenant, confided to the Prime Minister at the end of 1847 that:
No-one could now venture to dispute the fact that Ireland had been sacrificed to the London corn-dealers because you were a member for the City, and that no distress would have occurred if the exportation of Irish grain had been prohibited.”
🙂
John main.
And don’t forget the mythical treaty of the union.
Nazis: Did you do that?
Pablo Picasso: No, you did.
Sarah.
Interesting though that kC as the new monarch recognises the Claim of Right for Scots, where Westminster have been trying to hide its worth in the dark all these years
Cuilean says:
12 September, 2022 at 4:50 pm
Nazis: Did you do that?
Pablo Picasso: No, you did.
I liked that story.!
@ James Che: the oath he took is presumably the traditional one so the Claim of Right, as you say, is well recognised. It’s “only” Westminster that is the problem.
Oh and the SNP. It is simple enough for SNP to say “we are sticking with our Constitution and are going to consult our sovereign people on what they want”. But they won’t do it.
Again, it seems I’ve now triggered some people with my views on history.
I’ve read a lot of history books. I’d say about 5% were worth the effort.
Once you understand that everything revolves around fleecing people, workers, third world peasants, etc., that pretty much anything goes when it comes to fleecing people, going back about 5 hundred years, it becomes very easy to distinguish between accounts that are honest (and worth reading) and accounts that are just crap. In most universities the emphasis is on the crap and they reward people for producing it, imbibing it, and regurgitating it.
History is an art in the sense that lying and deceiving people is art. If a history book doesn’t totally depress you, it’s probably not worth reading; it’s probably a pile of lies and selectively chosen distractions.
Real history is grim and they don’t want you near it. They don’t want you knowing how the world works and what they’ve been up to. I don’t blame them.
And anybody could get a degree or a PhD in history. There’s really very little talent required, unless you consider reading and regurgitating bullshit a talent.
If you want to gauge how worthless and detached from reality history is as a subject, pay attention to the way the Queen’s death or the ongoing war in the east is being handled by MSM channels. Immediately you see that they’re all more or less following the same script and that divergent and alternative views barely get a mention. That’s more or less how history is handled in universities. Would you want a degree in that crap?
Sarah.
Sometime it seems the Snp are more about unionism that the rest of England and Scotland put together,
The Snp may be more loyalist to Westminster than royalist perhaps, do you think?
Another painter of interest if Hogarth.
link to tinyurl.com
‘O the Roast Beef of Old England (‘The Gate of Calais’)’, William Hogarth, 1748
What do you think the figure in the right bottom corner is all about?
The snp s loyalties seem to be to neither Scotland or necessarly the monarch but rather to Westminster,
I could see why perhaps why certain sections of Scotland want her gone for one reason and the other part of Scotland want her gone for not following through for purpose snp party in Scotland.
When the NuSNP have come in under false pretences for all of Scotland there cannot be much milage left in the road,
The City of London has been sectioned into boroughs, since I believe about 1965ish,
I am sure this will be thoroughly discussed and defined.
But does that mean a london borough is running britain
@”Scott” 4.20 pm
Why do you want to see Scotland independent again, and independent of what?
Nothing paradoxical about it. I suspect I want an independent Scottish republic for the same reasons as many other Scots. In no particular order:
– I don’t think we can promote the kind of society we want and deserve within the British nationalist state;
– I think small social democratic states are easier to run and have a better chance of producing the kind of Better Nation and social outcomes I believe most Scots aspire to;
– I think a republic is more likely to happen if we’re independent;
– I think the relationship between Scotland and the rest of the UK is broken and that – by and large – the English population and the Scottish population want very different things;
– I think being part of the EU and/or single market will help Scotland’s future prospects and can only happen with independence;
– I think progress on issues such as environment, climate change, de-nuclearisation, land reform, drugs policy, social care provision, the health service and education will be better aligned with communitarian / egalitarian principles with independence than as part of the UK;
– I think an independent Scotland can be a (more) positive, progressive voice and actor in the international community as an independent state rather than as part of the UK; and
– in the end, just as a matter of self respect that any people worth its salt ought to want to be independent.
link to tinyurl.com
William Hogarth’s ‘The March of the Guards to Finchley
I think it a wonderful coincidence that the Scottish spy who accompanies the Young Pretender looks like a character from Outlander – Jamie Fraser (played by Sam Heughan)
It seems you can tell the character in the painting is Scottish because he has red hair & because he’s stealing some alcohol.
close up of right hand corner of ‘O the Roast Beef’
link to tinyurl.com
My question for Andy would be:
To what extent does it matter that the ‘know nothings’ ‘moonhowlers, ‘fringe nutters’ ‘skid marks’ and The Bonny Purple Heather Brigade’ all have votes & some may be soft nos?
Is saving Wings from the above more important than Independence?
My question for the cunt-caller in chief would be:
How do you think the world view of a minority of fringe nutters, cranks, conspiracy theorists, shills for war criminal Vlad and xenophobic nativist bigots plays with the folk we have to convert?
The Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade and Brigadoon Popular Front types will vote for indy anyway. Me correctly identifying them as fringe extremists may make you all froth at the mouth, but even y’all aren’t mental enough to come out with the kind of bullshit some supposed “undecideds” tried during indyref1 when they loudly proclaimed they’d vote No because some indy supporter used a bad word, or looked at them a bit funny.
In the general scheme of things WoS is only important to a section of the movement, but it does still have a reasonably big readership, which is why it’s important not to let its legacy be oxygen thieves like yourself.
People with fringe nutter views are a small minority. If it comes to a cost benefit analysis I’m pretty convinced more of them share the mainstream views of the adults left in the room, not the woo woo spouted by the hard of thinking in here.
Unsurprisingly, we now learn that history isn’t a real subject in moonhowler world. I wonder what other subjects aren’t worth studying in that world, and what colour the sky is there?
History ahh.
Is that history recalling three or four hundred years later,?
Perhaps the history of the wives and mothers of the slaughtered menfolk and boys,?
Perhaps the history wrote by historians that were not there?
Perhaps the one sided view of history of the victors?
The Stories passed down from generation to generation by their ancestors?
From which corner does the truth of history come? Those left in a position to speak it wether real truth or not.
From those that shout louder from a soap box.
From those that run the government of the day,
Perhaps history that is selective in its choices of conversation?
Or perhaps from the media of the day that is paid for propaganda?
Which history is the truth?
Is Andy running for future office of Scotland?
It is notable that the wef wish to abolish nation hood and Countries,
Perhaps all of Britain will be broken down to manageble Counties one day, and all be devolved,
Whoops to late,
Anyone putting themselves forward for Mayor of Scotland?
Ach, I thought genuine pro-Indy supporters in the movement would at least tolerate a fair spectrum of diverse views, but the one thing we should all have in common is wanting Scotland to return to self-governance.
That’s why there are All Under One Banner events after all, and they manage to mobilise a lot more folk to attend than are left ranting away btl these days.
So maybe a bit less of the hostile, intolerant, divisive shite wouldn’t go a miss.
But on the subject of fringe nutters… anybody ken what FoS* are up to these days?
*Flock of Seagulls
@ Hatuey says:12 September, 2022 at 5:09 pm
“If a history book doesn’t totally depress you, it’s probably not worth reading; it’s probably a pile of lies and selectively chosen distractions”
Guess I better divest myself of my histories of medicine, public health, transport, human rights, sanitation, etc, etc blah de fucking blah.
Here we sit, Hatuey and me and the rest of the readers, integrated parts of the most privileged, luckiest, best fed, healthiest, most comfortable, safest cohort of human beings in the entire span of the fucking world, and the history of how we got here is supposedly a pile of lies.
I am through angry about this. This calls for sympathy and understanding, because this is insanity.
“Unsurprisingly, we now learn that history isn’t a real subject in moonhowler world. I wonder what other subjects aren’t worth studying in that world, and what colour the sky is there?”
I nominate the ” Gender Studies and Intersectionality” masters program at Linkoping University.
and any course teaching that oil and it’s related products can replaced over the next generation without causing widespread starvation generally and cold, shortened, lifespans in northern climes. That, and the complete destruction of Western civilisation and economic prosperity.
The colour of the sky is rainbow if one is a masochist or hateful and suicidal.
Black if one is used to life’s creature comforts like not freezing to death.
Heat or eat for thee but not for me in my rainbow coloured Tesla.
Andy Ellis says:
12 September, 2022 at 6:07 pm
People with fringe nutter views are a small minority.
According to you they are the majority on here. How do you account for that?
The Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade and Brigadoon Popular Front types will vote for indy anyway.
This Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade are they a separate group from the Bonny Purple Heather Brigade?
Is referring to people is this way what would be described as ‘othering’?</b
Unsurprisingly, we now learn that history isn’t a real subject in moonhowler world.
That was just the opinion of one person. He also said history is art. Do you or don’t you agree that history is art?
In the general scheme of things WoS is only important to a section of the movement, but it does still have a reasonably big readership,
How come the majority who post here are all Moonhowlers? Where are all your supporters? Are you fighting this battle to save Wings from the Moonhowlers all alone?
it’s important not to let its legacy be oxygen thieves like yourself
Is that not something for Stu to decide?
I wonder what other subjects aren’t worth studying in that world, and what colour the sky is there?
The colour of the sky would very much depend on the weather, time of day etc and whether or not you were asking an artist or an historian or perhaps what the current government had decided what colour the sky should be. What colour is the sky in your world? I bet your answer will be blue! You seem like that kinda guy.
This BritState agitprop roadshow will giving those Orange folk a hellova buzz.
Are they allowed orgasms?
@James Che 7:07
One or two perceptive commentators have been calling for Greater London to declare Independence for some years now.
It has the population.
It has the GDP.
It is no longer a predominately British/English/Christian/European entity, and thus it no longer shares the values/politics/outlook of the rest of England, let alone Scotland.
Will it happen? Nostradamus, he know. Perhaps.
Meantime, we can look at Sweden and ponder the looming fate of our preferred Nordic role models as a generation of Andy’s “progressive values” come home to roost.
History, eh? It’s just one, damned thing after another!
O/T
It’s hardly surprising that standards in Scottish education are in freefall when graduate teachers are treated as McJobs: no career security, no guaranteed hours, and no continuity in classrooms.
Good to see that this is among the motions for Alba Conference 2022: –
5. TOPIC: Recruitment retention and retirement of the teaching workforce in Scottish schools
There is an over supply of graduate teachers in Scottish schools and not enough permanent positions. Graduate teachers entering the workforce are given one-year contracts. This suits council budgets as the one-year contract is guaranteed and paid by the Scottish Government. At the end of the year the teachers are replaced by the new crop of graduate teachers.
The situation has been further worsened by the introduction of Post Graduate Diploma in Education for Primary Teachers, which now allows anyone with a degree to take a short one-year course and be on par with a person with a Masters of Education.
The oversupply of teachers is compounded by the Post Graduate Diploma in Education for Secondary Teachers, which is available in subjects where there is no teacher shortage.
Last year there were approximately 1700 teachers unemployed or on what amounts to zero hours contracts; that is in a supply pool with no contract waiting for an ad hoc offer of work.
… This situation is exacerbated by changes to the teachers’ pension and superannuation scheme which means that teachers are working up to seven years longer, leaving no permanent positions for graduates.
A call to arms this Sunday.
link to barrheadboy.com
@Ruby 7.21 pm
According to you they are the majority on here. How do you account for that?
I don’t think they represent the majority. They sometimes provide the majority of comments, and there are of course different flavours of moonhowlers. I note that they sometimes even disagree amongst themselves. Anyhoo…quality, not quantity. And size isn’t everything: I reckon quite a few of the moonhowlers should be well used to hearing that. 🙂
Is referring to people is this way what would be described as ‘othering’?
No.
That was just the opinion of one person. He also said history is art. Do you or don’t you agree that history is art?
No
How come the majority who post here are all Moonhowlers? Where are all your supporters? Are you fighting this battle to save Wings from the Moonhowlers all alone?
I don’t think they always are. Sometimes, certainly they spray paint the place with their unreason. I think a lot of the adults have left the building. Not everyone is as tolerant as me. I don’t believe the moonhowlers represent more than a small fraction of the general readership, and still less of the movement as a whole. The fact the lunatics sometimes take over the asylum doesn’t make their worldview right.
Is that not something for Stu to decide?
I don’t think Stu (alone) can dictate the legacy of the site after the event. Of course in moonhowler world all things might be possible. He is of course quite entitled to enforce the rules he sees fit. Luckily for you he hasn’t seen fit to do so, or you’d have been kicked in to touch weeks ago.
Oh, we can but dream…
Tuesday, 20th September, 2022.
A proclamation by His Majesty King Charles 3rd.
I, King Charles 3rd, as monarch of the kingdoms of Scotland and England, affirm that as sovereign monarch in England, I will lend that sovereignty to the parliament of the UK.
However, as Charles 3rd, King of Scots, I will uphold the right of the sovereign Scots people to choose their monarch and their form of government, in accordance with the Declaration of Arbroath, 1320, and the Claim of Right, 1789, affirmed in the UK parliament, 2017.
Now, wid that no’ be bra’?
Mair like pants than ‘bra’ mate.
🙂
Dan says:
12 September, 2022 at 7:07 pm
Ach, I thought genuine pro-Indy supporters in the movement would at least tolerate a fair spectrum of diverse views, but the one thing we should all have in common is wanting Scotland to return to self-governance.
That’s why there are All Under One Banner events after all, and they manage to mobilise a lot more folk to attend than are left ranting away btl these days.
So maybe a bit less of the hostile, intolerant, divisive shite wouldn’t go a miss.
The same “All Under One Banner” that threw Craig Murray – someone they’d asked to write articles for them to pad out their website specifically to make it look like it was being run by grown-ups and stuff – a last minute dizzy earlier this year because certain other speakers all of a sudden decided “he would be a divisive figure” (translated: “afraid he’d make their speeches look shite”)?
Much as I nod to the sentiment, your very example illustrates the problem …
Most of the social sciences are fake too. Politics, economics, sociology, international relations, and the rest, they are all pretty much art forms; that is to say, dominated by groupings of incels that shepherd students from one lie to the next.
If you have a degree in any of those subjects, it’s probably worthless. All you’ll be any good at is waffling and pretending you know what you’re talking about, which isn’t anything remotely like actually knowing what you’re talking about.
Graveyards are to bodies what arts and social sciences faculties are to souls.
I’ll definitely be making an appearance at the yestival gig on Sunday and hope many others will too. Tommy Sheridan is one of the few people in politics that I trust and he’s the very sort of person we need to take the bull by the horns right now — a man of principle and action rather than talk.
@ Mark Boyle
Well of course, nowt is perfect so it’s always relatively easy to find some thread to pick away at.
And the last few years with the ill behaviour and divisive stuff the supposedly pro-Indy SNP have got up to, along with covid, has certainly created a more fractious environment right across the YES movement. And we know who ultimately benefits from that…
So wiser heads with considerably less overly aggressive ego-wrestling playing out in public view might be the order of the day, rather than continuing to provide skipfire fuel.
From link to wingsoverscotland.com
1. Write as if an undecided voter is reading.
2. Play the ball, not the man (or woman).
3. Show other commenters some courtesy.
Stu is taking a break but the site remains open for comments, but does btl these days really look like all remaining commenters are adhering to Stu’s guidelines.
Mark Boyle says:
a last minute dizzy earlier this year because certain other speakers all of a sudden decided “he would be a divisive figure” (translated: “afraid he’d make their speeches look shite”)?
Do you really not know why they decided “he would be a divisive figure”?
Andy Ellis
Thank you for completing my questionnaire.
I’ve noted you missed the question re the colour of your sky.
If I need any further information I’ll be in touch.
@Brian Doonthetoon says:12 September, 2022 at 8:45 pm
“Declaration of Arbroath, 1320, and the Claim of Right, 1789”
It was 1689, Brian.
But you knew that, right? That was a wee test to see if anybody ever reads anything on here?
Uh oh. Looks like I am the only one. 🙂
Hatuey says:
12 September, 2022 at 9:34 pm
Most of the social sciences are fake too. Politics, economics, sociology, international relations, and the rest, they are all pretty much art forms; that is to say, dominated by groupings of incels that shepherd students from one lie to the next.
I find it quite strange that you describe these subjects as art forms.
I always consider art as painting, sculpture, graphic art, design, fashion, photography, creative writing, music, dance etc.
subjects where you need to use your brain to create something whereas the subjects you’ve listed above are just subjects where you are required to learn & regurgitate a load of facts.
Is it fair to call them sciences?
Talking of art. Shauny Boy has been banned from You Tube & Twitter.
I’m trying to remember the name of the artist who did photoshop montages which always featured the morphy richard steam iron. They were really good. Dave something?
Can you help
Dave llewelyn is the person you are looking for, Ruby. He has another twitter name, Lukewarm Dave maybe… not sure.
History is as a matter of fact an arts subject, it’s part of the arts faculty.
I’d put those other subjects in there too though. They’re definitely not sciences. Actually, I don’t really know what the fuck I’d call them.
Hatuey says:
Cheers Lukewarm Dave was the very guy I was looking for. I really like art which uses a lot of symbolism and you have to figure out what it all means. Dave is really good at that.
Is this Wings Over Scotland or Wings Over Edinburgh?
Ruby, Ellis, Main, Chas, Boyle, Hatuey et al. should meet in the pub that’s equidistant from each of their hooses, and livestream the interactions on OnlyFandans.
Anyhoo,
I really have enjoyed some of the constitutional commentary from BBC pundits during the coffin’s journeys. Listening to them dancing on the head of a pin was really quite delicious.
Each and every one of them have clearly and unambiguously stated that Scotland and the kingdom of Scotland continue to exist, as has the King himself when referring to both the kingdom of Scotland and the kingdom of England in the present tense in his speeches.
The incorporation theory only holds true insofar as the union was created to make Queen Anne’s business affairs easier to manage. Uncoupling the administrative union is a done deal, shirley?
Charles has forfeited all inheritable properties to the Governments in the name of the common good.
Let’s see what happens now that the people have heard those words.
The Scottish Government is in possession of Scotland, not UK Government.
The First Minister is keeper of the Great Seal, not the Secretary of State.
Claiming the right to petition the monarch directly to voice opinion isn’t a symbolic gesture…it’s a legitimate form of legal action, notwithstanding the convention that the legislature & courts are the usual resolvers of matters of Scots law in the first instance. A collective petition would save the postie some work…
The union is dead. Long live the King.
Hi John Main at 10:19 pm.
You typed,
“It was 1689, Brian.”
It was an unnoticed typo – honest!
So Police Scotland have just cancelled this week ends Glasgow Yes Festival.
Alleging that they have intelligence of Loyalst thug threats they say that they cannot guarantee public safety, or even police safety for Alex Salmond who was scheduled to speak. But it will however be OK to reschedule to 9th October 2022 when presumably it will be safe.
Clearly, this action by Police is designed to suppress the independence movement. Police Scotland are once again showing overtly how they are a sectarian political police force in the tradition of the late Royal Ulster Constabulary or the apartheid Police Service of Northern Ireland.
Like the British military and all of its shadowy units they are together with a controlled media all part of a very active occupying colonial force.
This Yes Festival was cancelled as part of their Dirty War and no one can now have any doubt about how democracy in Scotland is being crushed.
Scott says:
13 September, 2022 at 2:12 am
Is this Wings Over Scotland or Wings Over Edinburgh?
Ruby, Ellis, Main, Chas, Boyle, Hatuey et al. should meet in the pub that’s equidistant from each of their hooses, and livestream the interactions on OnlyFandans.
Does Main not live in East Kilbride? How do you know where Boyle Hatuey & Chas live?
Have you been naughty again?
‘Wings Over Edinburgh’ is a new one on me I’ve heard this site called ‘Wings Over Bath’
but never ‘Wings Over Edinburgh’
FYI Stuart Campbell lives in Bath. 🙂
Got any more bright suggestions?
@Scott says:13 September, 2022 at 2:12 am
“The union is dead. Long live the King.”
Scott has his “lightbulb moment”!
At one stroke, a sizeable chunk of the No voters could be shifted into Yes, as they realise they can be Independent and retain the monarchy, and Yes could finally get the dependable, consistent majority that cannot be denied.
Such a shame that the Indy movement has been in thrall to adolescent, republican Trots for so long.
Scottish Independence paying second fiddle to ideological purity.
Hatuey says:
12 September, 2022 at 9:34 pm
Most of the social sciences are fake too. Politics, economics, sociology, international relations, and the rest, they are all pretty much art forms; that is to say, dominated by groupings of incels that shepherd students from one lie to the next.
If you have a degree in any of those subjects, it’s probably worthless. All you’ll be any good at is waffling and pretending you know what you’re talking about, which isn’t anything remotely like actually knowing what you’re talking about.
Odd that….your hero Tommy Sheridan has (checks notes) degrees in Politics and Economics, a Masters in Social Research and a Batchelor of Laws from Strathclyde. I wonder if he thinks they’re fake and worthless and if it means all he’s good at is waffling and pretending to know what he’s talking about?
Are we only allowed to believe what graduates with hard science degrees say then, or people with practical skills and trades? It really is passing strange the kind of world the moonhowlers think will be attractive to Scottish voters going forwards isn’t it?
link to archive.ph
The Queen Edinburgh: Thousands queue overnight in Edinburgh to pay respects to Queen
An unnamed source informed me that all these people came through from Glasgow.
Looks like a ‘Wings Over Glasgow’ could definitely be needed.
There are loads of divisions on this forum why not one between Edinburgh & Glasgow?
Bloody Weegies trying to set me up with some very dodgy geezers.
Hatuey not included he’s a Full Moonhowler & member of the Bonny Purple Heather Brigade.
Unionists are getting all excited about all the crowds flocking to Edinburgh to mourn the Queen they believe this indicates that the Union is safe.
The death of the Queen has miraculously converted all yes voters to no voters.
It’s a miracle!
Anyone who still might be YES will definitely be converted when we have the coronation of the guy formerly known as Prince.
John Main says:
13 September, 2022 at 8:14 am
@Scott says:13 September, 2022 at 2:12 am
“The union is dead. Long live the King.”
Scott has his “lightbulb moment”!
—
Fuck off, ya lunatic.
If you don’t understand the meaning and effect of words, go sit with Kezia Dugdale, Sarah Smith, Kevin Hague, Steve Sayers, Jill Stephenson, David Mundell, Murdo Fraser, Barrhead Travel, Tunnock’s biscuits, Ruth Davidson, Basil Brush, Gordon Brown, that Lord spiritual who thought it was a good idea to dictate to the monarch on matters of the union of the crowns and any other fuckwit that wants to join you.
I’m sick to the back teeth of you cunts spewing legal pish every time you infect the airways, alleyways, highways, byways & noways.
It’s over, deal with it. The monarch has ceded Scotland to the Scottish Government on behalf of the common good of the people.
If the proclamation of the King wasn’t clear, go listen to it again.
If the Orders in Council weren’t clear enough, listen again.
And then go fuck yourself.
The union is dead. Long live the King.
x
As heads of state, functionally there is little to choose between monarchy and presidency however with both styles the citizen is entitled to ask «over what species of society do they hold office in my name ?».
If you do not like the answer, both are equally politically problematic.
Being good a waffling and pretending you know what you’re talking is all that is required to be a politician.
My worry is that all these subjects that train you in the art of waffling are all left brain subjects and what we really need are more right brainers to get us out of this mess.
All these people standing out in the cold overnight for days on end on the pavement and outside St Giles suggests to me that the power of the media to manipulate is a lot stronger than I thought.
That is quite scary as is people being arrested for protesting.
What chance do we have against the black art of media manipulation?
My message to any undecided voter reading this forum would be to ask yourself:
Who’s pulling your strings?
Andy Ellis
I have a hard science degree.
Hatuey will be taking his marching orders from me from now on.
FFS Paddington & the marmalade sandwiches!
Talk about being a marmalade sandwich short of a picnic.
Anybody interested in reading how a fanatically independent country on the opposite side of the world is coping with having King Charles III as constitutional monarch can read this:
link to unherd.com
For those who can’t be arsed, I’ll summarise:
Ordinary Australians can only give a fuck when the subject of how a republic will benefit them comes up. When told that nobody much knows, they go all apathetic.
It’s much like trying to make the case for Scots Indy: Show us the fucking money!
It is not history that’s bunkum, it’s the way some English historians tell it. Think this one has been knocking back college madeira
link to archive.ph
Vivat Rex, hick! hick! hick!
@Scott 8:33
“The monarch has ceded Scotland to the Scottish Government”
Indeed.
It’s after 9. The Scottish Government will be at their desks, governing Scotland, persuing the best outcomes for the greatest number of Scots, as per usual.
If we Indy supporters believe there could be better outcomes for the greatest number of Scots, then we better get off our flabby butts and persuade that majority of Scots to come onside with us.
That’s the task, as per usual.
Your instructions to both fuck off and fuck myself were ambiguous, so I’ll just leave it there. You have a good day.
A mathematician is more likely to successfully ‘Project Manage’ the reconstruction of the Pyramids and Stonehenge than a politician, a banker, a narchitect, a nidiot, yer Maw, a nartist, a ninternational relationserer, a nistorian or an oble Lord.
If you’ve enough people, you can move anything unbolted to the floor.
I’m a mathematician, but this is as still true as in those ancient times and mystic lands where the dewdrops cry and the cats meow.
“Nobody knows who they were, or what they were doing…”
link to youtube.com
‘Wings Over East Kilbride’
Does Australia not get the British Monarchy free of charge?
HOF “Yestival’ postponed until Oct 8th.
We’re meant to be challenging the British State but we daren’t defy the mighty GCC?
FFS…
🙁
Pipe down, Andy, I was generalising but Tommy serves as a good exception to the general rule.
The general rule is that intellectual wet-backs like you or Mark Boyle go bleary-eyed into a social sciences degree and come out the other end with a sense of superiority, talking to people like shit, telling them what’s right and wrong, what they can and can’t discuss, and pretending/convinced you’re some sort of geniuses.
I’d say 90% of the population are capable of getting through a social sciences degree.
If there’s one group of people who ought to appreciate the importance of free speech, appreciate the importance of education, appreciate the importance of background and social factors, it’s people who have a social sciences degree. Instead you end up playing the part of some hate-filled cadre, resenting the very ground you walk on. It’s odd.
That’s all a bit philosophical, but I think ordinary people who stumble in here and read the sort of things you type would go away feeling quite shitty and disappointed.
They might not agree with or like the things that Ian Brotherhood, RoS, or I type, but we would engage with and encourage them, and welcome their views. We wouldn’t shut them down and tell them they’re inferior.
It’s not a hard rule, as I say, it’s a generalisation, but I think that applies to a lot of people with degrees in things like history, politics, sociology, etc.
IN HUSHED SILENCE THEY LINED THE «ROYAL MILE».
link to archive.ph
SIEG SMARTPHONE!
PANEM ET CIRCENSES.
Can’t believe we are allowing them to call off Sunday.
Absolute pish.
Lol @ International relationser
Always good for a bit of a laugh is our Scott…
It’s a dark day indeed when Andrew Marr is being left to defend ‘free speech’.
He’s probably marked his card by doing so.
@Hatuey says:13 September, 2022 at 9:41 am
“We wouldn’t shut them down and tell them they’re inferior”
As I wrote yesterday, far too many Hatuey’s posting on here.
I well mind the Hatuey who boasted of “pushing under-achievers out of his way”.
Hatuey(s) – time to get your self/selves new names.
Margaret Ferrier sentenced to 270 hours community service.
Taking the Honours of Scotland to London is a breach of the Treaty………the broken promises go on ………
Article 24: The Great Seals of England and Scotland were to be replaced by a Great Seal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain. The Scottish crown jewels, parliamentary and other official records were to stay in Scotland.
Article 24 of the Treaty of Union stated that “And that the Crown, Scepter, and Sword of State… continue to be kept as they are, within that Part of the united Kingdom now called Scotland; and that they shall so remain in all Time coming, notwithstanding of the Union.
What about the Stone of Destiny being shifted to London?
Will that have to be done under cover of darkness?
Probably not – doesn’t seem any appetite for opposition. Not even for that.
🙁
What would happen if we just all turned up on Saturday?
Sorry! What would happen if we all turned up on SUNDAY!??
Yestival has been moved to 8th October after organisers withdrew the pending application for 18th September on advice of Polis Scotland & GCC.
Fuck all to do with loyalist thugs or Alex Salmond or terror threats.
Those peddling and amplifying such shite should be ashamed of themselves.
@Dorothy Devine (11.40) –
I guess Scotland’s finest would probably move us along ‘for our own safety’.
Fear appears to have won over hope.
@Hatuey 9.41 am
Pipe down, Andy, I was generalising but Tommy serves as a good exception to the general rule.
Ah…I had a feeling there would be exceptions for those who agreed with you right enough. All are equal, but some are more equal than others, eh? Very Animal Farm.
The general rule is that intellectual wet-backs like you or Mark Boyle go bleary-eyed into a social sciences degree and come out the other end with a sense of superiority, talking to people like shit, telling them what’s right and wrong, what they can and can’t discuss, and pretending/convinced you’re some sort of geniuses.
I’m not what Mark Boyle’s background is, but why you think we’re intellectual wet backs escapes me. More problematically it probably escapes you too. The only people that get talked to like shit are the ones who have amply demonstrated they have shit for brains.
I don’t see why any reasonable person would find it problematic to point out that flat earthers, anti vaxxers and nativists and what passes for their arguments need to be faced down, particularly when they generally prove to be scarcely verbal neds with a penchant for denouncing those exposing their idiocy as tractors* (Ed.) or just cunt callling or otherwise abusing them.
Of course people who disagree with them will tell them they’re wrong. They are in general wrong. Nobody I’ve seen in here has been telling them they’re not allowed to express their woo-woo though. In fact from what I’ve seen folk prefer the nutter fringe to be on full display so we can point and laugh at them more effectively. It’d be much worse if they were secretive and spreading their poison unseen.
Again, I’ve never seen anyone profess to be a genius. It’s not particularly hard to shoot at conspiracy theorising fish thrashing about in their barrel though.
That’s all a bit philosophical, but I think ordinary people who stumble in here and read the sort of things you type would go away feeling quite shitty and disappointed.
Cod philosophical perhaps. I’m absolutely certain that you and yer muckers in here don’t speak for “ordinary people”. or that you’d know how they went away feeling. None of the folk I know would give the world view of you and yer mates the time of day, whether in respect of franchise restriction, vaccine denial, being staunch friends of Vlad and unselfconsciously talking about the Great Satan. Nor would they be impressed with the propensity of the usual suspects to call those who disagreed with them plants, to cunt call them and otherwise abuse them.
….but we would engage with and encourage them, and welcome their views. We wouldn’t shut them down and tell them they’re inferior.
Utter tosh as any regular in here will be able to testify. They react with spittle flecked fury, call those disagreeing with them unionist plants and worse and generally lower the tone of the place. Before your recent apparently Damascene conversion, as pointed out by others, you were one of the more reasonable contributors. I may not always have agreed with you, any more than I always to so with John Main, Chas or others. Indeed I even recall you being one of the (very few) with the common decency to call “Scott” out for his creepy as fuck stalking. Changed days indeed.
It doesn’t take a genius, whether they have a social sciences degree, a hard sciences degree, or no degree at all, to see which side of the argument has something of the night about it. The only upside is that, despite their potential to do damage to the movement, they only represent a small nutter fringe. Sadly they are now over represented in here, but they and you aren’t fooling anyone but yourselves that you enjoy any wider support.
John Main says:
13 September, 2022 at 8:14 am
@Scott says:13 September, 2022 at 2:12 am
“The union is dead. Long live the King.”
Scott has his “lightbulb moment”!
Pity the light bulb is of such a dim watt …
Andy Ellis says:
13 September, 2022 at 8:29 am
Hatuey says:
12 September, 2022 at 9:34 pm
Most of the social sciences are fake too. Politics, economics, sociology, international relations, and the rest, they are all pretty much art forms; that is to say, dominated by groupings of incels that shepherd students from one lie to the next.
If you have a degree in any of those subjects, it’s probably worthless. All you’ll be any good at is waffling and pretending you know what you’re talking about, which isn’t anything remotely like actually knowing what you’re talking about.
Odd that….your hero Tommy Sheridan has (checks notes) degrees in Politics and Economics, a Masters in Social Research and a Batchelor of Laws from Strathclyde. I wonder if he thinks they’re fake and worthless and if it means all he’s good at is waffling and pretending to know what he’s talking about?
Are we only allowed to believe what graduates with hard science degrees say then, or people with practical skills and trades? It really is passing strange the kind of world the moonhowlers think will be attractive to Scottish voters going forwards isn’t it?
😀 TELT! 😀
It also hasn’t escaped notice he’s parroting the same shit as “Scott” – one second trying to give lectures in history, then the second he realises he’s completely out of his depth (ie. anything deeper than drinkable puddle level) he switches to a Henry Ford “history is bunk” routine (ironic considering he was the grandfather of historical revisionism, but there you go …).
Confirmation that it’s one sad case running up multiple troll accounts for bites, confident those in charge aren’t really that interested in stopping them ‘cos it increases the viewing figures of “the retired blog”, something Dan might like to consider next time he comes out with another naive “if you’d all just play nice, children” fingerwag.
Of course, it’s all different now to some since Fatbeard started targetting JamesChe for bites and some have learned the hard way that “my enemy’s enemy is my friend” is a fallacy long bourne out in history …
So we now have a third Charlie, king of Scots. The previous two didn’t end well. Third time lucky? Billy Prince of Wales may have to start wearing a kilt lol. Has he ever worn one? (I wouldn’t know – not a royal watcher).
Ian Brotherhood says:
13 September, 2022 at 11:33 am
What about the Stone of Destiny being shifted to London?
Will that have to be done under cover of darkness?
I thought they could have saved some time and money by slinging it in the back of the hearse before they headed down. However, considering the way it destroyed the suspensions of two Ford Anglias, there would have been the real danger of the hearse doing a wheelie down the Royal Mile – which would at least have given those with their smartphones out something more fun to record for posterity.
Her Majesty would have been up for it: whatever people may say of her she was a good sport as the London Olympics proved, and it would have been one up on her wretched attention seeking ex-daughter-in-laws both living and dead – “beat that for a cortège, noobs!”
Andy Ellis thinks I stalk him, which is wrong as previously stated btl.
He should stop thinking it, as it comes over as a sign of paranoia.
Mark Boyle says: at 1:03 pm
“Pity the light bulb is of such a dim watt …”
I see even with Mark’s academic “intellect” he’s just failed in that comment, a mistake Andy Ellis has similarly made in the past, and he even repeated after it’d been pointed out that his turn of phrase is now outdated and not the modus of a progressive!
AE used low voltage, Mark has used watts, but if either of these sticklers for being correct all the time had a clue about leccy power and light they’d know that lumens is actually the measure of brightness rather than watts or volts.
Switched on folk that are aware of historical fact will have noted advances in technological innovation and development, and that modern technology with the likes of LEDs can make a lot of lumens with lower power input than was previously required to obtain the same level of brightness using tungsten filament bulbs.
HTH
Dan says:
13 September, 2022 at 1:51 pm
“Pity the light bulb is of such a dim watt …”
—
There’s a lightbulb in a California fire station that has been lit continuously since 1901.
Here’s a youtube video that proves conspiracy/collusion theories are real and the bit about the Murican lightbulb.
link to youtube.com
@ Scott
You’ve mis-attributed that quote to me with your formatting fail! It was MB who stated it.
James Gardiner.
It seems that the Government of Britain hold comtemptive views of the Articles of the treaty of the union,
Indeed they have colonised the treaty of union as if they eere the sole owners of that treaty of union to do with and alter as they please.
The problem for this British government behaviour of arrogance, will be that Scots eventually acknowledge the treaty is no longer valid both ways and has been breached time and again.
When this happens Scotland will be independent,
Trying to hold Englands politicians to uphold the treaty of union articles in Westminster has been a struggle since 1707,
They seem to be a bit confused with words of their own English language, they think Protector = owner,
The ssgr and salvo are great, but long winded.
There seems to be enough instances of the British government not only failing in its duty as protector but rather to be seen to have had a hand in the destruction of the articles of that treaty,
There is enough reason for any Scot to simple walk away,
And a sovereign Scot with the “Claim of Right” and the “right to self determination” could hardly be charged with UDI.
The Scottish devolved government could though as it is a british institution set up by british government legislation.
The Sovereign people of Scotland can walk away and choose a new government, and monarch if they wished.
This is one part of the treaty that Scots do not understand,
In so many ways the Sovereignty of the Scots as people in their Country has never been captured to any government.
The old Scottish parliament acknowledge the Sovereignty of the Scots in 1689, 8 years roughly prior to them entering the treaty of union of parliament of Scotland with the union with Englands parliament.
The Scots being as Sovereign from the Scottish parliament did not agree, rioted and protested and sent petitions from all shires to against a union with England in 1706/ 1707.
So who joined?