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Fetch more hammers

Posted on February 08, 2015 by

Posted this morning, after a week in which it was so comprehensively proven to be a complete lie that even Torcuil Crichton of the Daily Record was forced to concede it.

labourlie

You almost have to grudgingly admire the sheer bull-headed tenacity of their dogged determination to prove once and for all to the people of Scotland that Labour think they’re dribbling gullible morons.

Here’s what Tories actually think about the prospect of SNP MPs, of course.

tartanstalinists

It’s no wonder Jim Murphy’s going mad under the strain.

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    1. 08 02 15 12:43

      Fetch more hammers - Speymouth

    145 to “Fetch more hammers”

    1. Robert Knight says:

      They’re scum.

    2. Bob Sinclair says:

      GE 2015 starts for me at 1:00pm today. Im going out canvassing.

    3. Kenny says:

      I note that the Herald article linked to in the last line uses Murphy’s oddly specific “190,381” figure for Labour-supporting Yes voters. Maybe I missed a class in journalism school, but doesn’t it seem obvious to ask where that number came from?

    4. jimnarlene says:

      It’s the drip effect, keep saying the same lie again and again, over and over, then it’ll become true. Recent polling suggests it isn’t working but, there a long road ahead with many Labour lies and Tory plot holes.

    5. R-type Grunt says:

      You know, two years ago I was just an ordinary Scot who wanted to live in a democratic country. Then I was a Nationalist. Then a Nazi. And now I’m also a Stalinist.

      Can we not bring a class action suit against these racists? After all, if we were black, gay or disabled we could.

    6. aitchbee says:

      They’re not going mad, they’re just badly lagged. They fought the referendum as if it was a general election and now they’re fighting the general election campaign as if it was the referendum. Maybe they just need to reboot their connection (to reality) 😉

    7. Karmanaut says:

      Read the comments on that Daily Mail article. Just read them.
      Good grief.

      The level of hatred against Scots is utterly depressing.

    8. Murto says:

      No, they are not going mad, but, they are going, and will be mostly gone in May.

    9. Bill McLean says:

      Calling names – a reversion to the period of childhood pre
      enlightenment. Let’s not do it – leave it to the bigoted and immature!

    10. Giving Goose says:

      If the people of Scotland do vote Labour, then sadly, they will be proved to be morons.

      As for the Allan Massie piece in the Mail; well it’s the Mail and Allan has to earn his crust somehow.
      Let’s face it, a Mail story on the SNP was hardly going to be full of praise.

      Labour’s campaign strategy already looks very tired.
      It’s clearly a “Backs to the wall” approach.

      Where are the big ideas? The mouth watering new policies that the voter will recognise as something worth voting for?

      Of course, I can answer my own questions. There are none, because the whole approach is one big exercise in self preservation. Scottish Labour MPs and their entourages just want to keep their seats on the London Gravy Train.

      The job creation exercise for friends, cronies and family that is Labour in Scotland is standing on a siding with no conductor, no engine and aging rolling stock.

      Where is Casey Jones when you need him?

    11. HandandShrimp says:

      I said this in the previous thread, it is clear that Allan Massie and the Mail right wing reactionaries do not view the SNP as Tartan Tories.

      There are winds of change blowing and there are people that really have the wind up over an SNP win. 🙂

    12. morgatron says:

      Yes it does appear that they are in full Control – Alt- Delete mode, but the people are not responding. Seems connection has been lost. They are lying scum.

    13. Gary says:

      Pure ‘Murphyism’ at its worst.

    14. Dointhebiz says:

      WoS covered an item declaring that the average reader will only read a small percentage of an article “Headlines” are all important, Labour and the MSM Know this is a down right Lie, but IF they say it often enough and print it often enough then readers who merely scan the headlines may be hoodwinked into believing this nonsense is “Fact”, I only hope that the people of Scotland have learned from the Referendum and dig a little deeper into this blatant deceit.

    15. I think their leader has just excelled his own high standards. How awesome is Jim Murphy?

      If one were to ask: Who IS Jim Murphy? I doubt there could be a more accurate or succinct appraisal and account than the following:

      Sunday Herald
      “However, although Murphy claimed he was re-writing Clause 4 – with clear echoes of Tony Blair’s iconic move in 1994 – it emerged he had re-drafted a different section and then persuaded his party’s executive to renumber the clauses.”

      Brilliant!

      Jim Murphy has raised Machiavellian cynicism to the level of a clinical disorder.

      This is “Yes Minister” Armageddon. Sir Humphrey would sit at Jim’s feet, humbled before his awesome mastery of their beloved black art, at which Jim must be like . . . a 10th dan.

      I mean, respect, dude!

      http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/scottish-politics/revealed-jim-murphy-will-try-to-turn-labour-into-party-of-yes.117966622

    16. JLT says:

      The Unionist parties sure are making a rod for their own back. During the referendum, all we got was ‘Scotland, please stay! Don’t break this wonderful union of ours. Let’s cherish all those values we hold so dear…’

      Literally ….…SCREEEECH! …fast forward 6 months.

      Now …from both the Tories and the Labour parties, we get continual thumping and wailing of how terrible the UK is going to be if …Lord help us!, the Scots should vote SNP, let alone possibly make up the next government.
      So, they want us to remain in this wonderful union, but they don’t want to hear a word from us.

      This does have the possibility of ending in tears in so many ways. God knows how middle England will react should Labour and the SNP create a coalition government. I would not be surprised in the least, that there will be a clamouring for a ‘referendum’ for England.
      And both the Labour and the Tories must know within their heart of hearts, that should a ‘Grand Coalition’ take place between them, then Scotland will be lost forever. Scotland will be hurtling for the exit at the first opportunity.

      As folk say …it might have been easier on Westminster politics, if they had just let Scotland go. In hindsight, they may begin to realise that letting Scotland go, but having the nations share in certain functions such as Currency Union, was going to be as good as it got! Should Scotland head for the exit, no one north of the border will be clamouring for Currency Union, or what our position is in Europe. We’ll just be gone!

    17. Bob Mack says:

      Personally, I am going to take Camerons advice

    18. Grouse Beater says:

      Massie’s article in the Mail is hate speech. Massie should be prosecuted. The Mail justifies irrational accusations as ‘personal’ opinion. On the other hand, why not modify malicious intent before publication?

      Here’s McKenna’s Observer antidote to bigotry:

      http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/feb/08/poor-glasgow-safe-seat-cranhill-labour-snp-election-voters

    19. Robert Kerr says:

      What about a short competition for stickers to amend the “Yes for Labour” posters

      “Wipe-out”, “Red Tory Faction”

      Come on WoSers its an open goal.

    20. Aos says:

      Must be under the impression if they say it enough times, it’ll finally come true. FACT!

    21. HandandShrimp says:

      Karmanaut

      To be fair the Daily Mail is where the UKIP types hang out. They hate everything.

      I think Labour probably had the poster above ready to go and have launched it anyway despite the claim getting punctured mid week. They are short of money and ideas.

    22. heedtracker says:

      It is going completely teamGB crackers out there. Not as far right as neo fascist Daily Heil but still rancid hypocrites at The Guardian, really stirring up rule Britannia red tory imperial masters today.

      “The nationalist party has previously had a policy of not voting on matters which purely affect England. Last month Sturgeon signalled that her party would in future vote on matters concerning the NHS in England, because it was felt that changes in policy would affect the Scottish health service.”

      Red/blue tory really do not like this whole changee democracy thing at all. Funny that.

    23. Iain says:

      Massie: ‘Stalinists’, ‘East German Stasi’, ‘Mao’s China’, ‘socialist regimes’.

      I can only admire the triumph of Massie’s will (see what I did there) in resisting the temptation to bring up Mugabe.

    24. Dr Ew says:

      Scared and cornered animals – monkeys wearing red rosettes, for instance – are extremely dangerous. Base survival instincts kick in to save their skin, backhanders, junkets, pensions, sinecures, seat in the Lords, City directorships and all the other slops from the gravy train.

      This is going to get increasingly vicious, probably even more scurrilous and mendacious than the final weeks and months of the referendum campaign.

      Labour in Scotland is fighting for its continued existence. Expect savagery red in tooth and claw.

    25. On Sunday Politics today, Chris Leslie shadow business minister said that Labour were hoping to cut corporation tax and that when they were in Government they had a record of cutting corporation tax.

      Incredible when you think that Murphy and the Labour Branch office and their MSPs are criticising the Scottish Government/SNP for wanting to cut corporation tax in Scotland.

      Murphy’s quote is SNP wants to give tax breaks for the wealthy.

      Leslie’s quote is we are friends of business and wish to make cuts to corporation tax.

      Ye cannae make it up, Labour are all over the place.

    26. heedtracker says:

      Or this. Good example of Panic Stricken Graun reprobates who do not want Scotland anywhere near their democratic UKOKdom, unless we vote exactly how they command us naturally.

      https://archive.today/Hz5Ac

      You won, get over it moves to, “Sturgeon has reignited English votes row. Let’s not overreact” or, what’s the point of imperial masters if they can’t order their Scottish territory around.

      She’s not that powerful teamGB, is she:D

    27. grahamlive says:

      Clearly going for the ‘if you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it’ angle. I’ll not quite stoop to reminding them who said that.

    28. Hotrod Cadets says:

      According to this:

      https://web.archive.org/web/20150208122647/http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/11382939/Labour-will-not-use-photographs-of-David-Cameron-on-election-posters.html

      Labour will not use any more photos of David Cameron in their election posters. Apart from that one Stu posted, obviously.

    29. Dr Jim says:

      Sticks and stones..it’s all they’ve got and they’ve been sussed..
      You have to admit we’ve got a large amount of titles now
      Nationalists, Separatists,Insurgents, Extremists,Ultra Extremists Stalinists, Funny isn’t it, everything they can think of except .
      Democratists or just plain old Scottish folk interested in getting a fair shake for a change
      Me, i’m happy to be called any name they like as long as they do it from far away i can’t hear it and it means nothing
      Happy to be an Insturgeont
      Could be a new National Anthem he he he

    30. HandandShrimp says:

      Iain

      I think he went over hos word limit otherwise Mugabe and Castro would have been in there too.

    31. Sinky says:

      Wait here is a list of Scottish Labour MPs voting on 13 January 2015 with the Tories for further cuts to the Scottish government;s budget:

      Douglas Alexander Paisley and Renfrewshire North

      Willie Bain Glasgow North East

      Gordon Banks Ochil and South Perthshire

      Anne Begg Aberdeen South

      Russell Brown Dumfries and Galloway

      Michael Connarty Linlithgow and East Falkirk

      Margaret Curran Glasgow East

      Iain Davidson Glasgow South West

      Thomas Docherty Dunfermline and West Fife

      Brian Donohoe Central Ayshire

      Frank Doran Aberdeen North

      Gemma Doyle West Dunbartonshire

      Tom Greatrex Rutherglen and Hamilton West

      David Hamilton Midlothian

      Tom Harris Glasgow South

      Jimmy Hood Lanark and Hamilton East

      Cathy Jamieson Kilmarnock and Loudoun

      Iain MacKenzie Inverclyde

      Michael McCann East Kilbride , Stathaven and Lesmahagow

      Gregg McClymont Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch

      Anne McGuire Stirling

      Graham Morrice Livingston

      Iain Murray Edinburgh South

      Pamela Nash Airdrie and Shotts

      Fiona O’Donnell East Lothian

      John Robertson Glasgow North West

      Frank Roy Motherwell and Wishaw

      Anas Sarwar Glasgow Central

      http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2015/jan/scottish-labour-mps-vote-back-tory-cuts

    32. Sinky says:

      Hotrod Cadets at 12.30

      I can exclusively reveal that Labour won’t be using any photographs of Ed Miliband on their election literature.

    33. Fred says:

      Daily Fascist headline exhorts Muslims to learn from our values, this from none other than the heir to the throne, the well known hoor-maister, bludger and stranger to the workin-jaiket.

    34. Les Wilson says:

      The very way they are all acting in their attempts to thwart
      Scottish democracy, in fact shows just how scared they are of a big SNP win, exact reason we should vote SNP. Numskulls!

    35. JLT says:

      Iain and HandandShrimp

      Let’s not forget Pol Pot either. After all, this could have been the killing fields if things had gone to plan for our wonderful Ian Davidson, given his sarcastic remark about ‘bayoneting the wounded’ after the referendum!

    36. Effijy says:

      A. Mainstay Tory almost got his propaganda piece right!

      The Tartan Realists:
      Forced sales of country estates that were stolen from the people of Scotland and not being developed for the benefit of Scotland. Snooping state guardians for every child will ensure that Scots children will not be sexually abused and murdered, as in England.
      Contempt for the wealthy who have an insatiable greed and who have taken a greater and greater share of our GDP… and Britain, who treat Scots as second class citizens and guinea pigs for heinous policies such as the Poll Tax.
      Fantastic! The stark reality of an SNP landslide improving the lives of the majority in delivering a Fair and Just society!

    37. Joemcg says:

      Stalinists or Nazis? Jeez… make yer mind up Brit Nats!

    38. steveasaneilean says:

      Slightly O/T but I watched Inside The Commons last night (I know I am an eejit) but actually thought the programme makers made a pretty good job of letting the Westminster luvvies create enough rope for their own necks.
      I was left with an overwhelming sense of a profoundly anachronistic, somewhat misogynistic, private school dominated, gentleman’s club which seemed significantly undemocratic to my eyes and ears.
      And 2 million Scots wanted us to be part of that? Scary

    39. Chic McGregor says:

      White lying is where a lie of little perceived consequence is told, which, if anything is intended to avoid hurt in the recipient.

      Normal lying is motivated by a perceived personal advantage. The level to which a person is willing to go on this is limited by their own individual conscience and assessment of the chances of being caught.

      Compulsive Lying Disorder is where a person becomes addicted to the act of lying itself. They are addicted to the feeling of power they get simply by deceiving people. They will habitually lie even where there is no need to. It is a serious mental disorder. It is quite rare.

      People with compulsive lying disorder can function successfully, at least for quite a long time.

      And although the condition is rare, reckoned to be about 1 in 2000, certain professions which can enhance the required feeling of power, are known to attract and concentrate their numbers significantly. Professions like politics, business and journalism.

      It has been associated with the new, much broadened definition of psychopathic behaviour.

    40. HandandShrimp says:

      JLT

      At least we would be safe if it were Pol Pot because Iain Gray has been to the killing fields and is very brave.

      😉

    41. Chic McGregor says:

      Sorry, should have said ‘thought’ rather than ‘known’ there, the article I read only stated that as an opinion.

    42. Patrick Roden says:

      OTish,

      After Labours Trystan Hunts rant on Question Time, about how teaching assistants were pretty useless, and no substitute for trained teachers, Jim Murphy has announced that Labour want to double the number of teaching assistants in Scotland!!

      Are Labour telling us that they think Scottish children deserve a second class education?

    43. drawdeaddave says:

      Think we can safely assume the love bombing wont be happening this election, everything else is much the same as the BT referendum campaign, including the Brown Vow, the lies, the MSM propaganda, the fear-mongering, the smear campaigns, the demonising of the Scottish nationalist identity, the LibLabCon alliances, just waiting on banks moving, share prices falling and food prices rising, and they tell us to get over it. You would think a wee, stupid, poor country like ours wouldn’t be worth the hassle. Suppose they do have a point when it comes to the stupid part, oil revenues flowing one way for decades and in return we get nuclear weapons on our shores, seems like a fair deal… (if your a Scottish Labour politician)

    44. Jock McDonnell says:

      O/T but it would be interesting to hear feedback from Yessers in East Renfrewshire & Paisley South as to how much effort Labour put in on the ground there.
      I think we should keep an eye on those two, very closely indeed.

    45. Chitterinlicht says:

      I would pay good money to be a fly on the wall at Murphys labour #GE2015 strategy meeting.

      Bet it is going to get very nasty.

      Need rise above it

      Expose the lies

      Be positive

      Keep it simple. A vote for SNP is a vote for Scotland not middle England (who I am sure are all very nice people )

    46. Jock McDonnell says:

      re last comment, should have been Paisley & Ren. North of course

      Keep your eyes on Murphy & wee Dougie, how much ground support do they get.

    47. JLT says:

      HandandShrimp

      LOL! I forgot all about that! Well remembered, sir!

    48. Les Wilson says:

      I came across an article that was talking about democracy in Hong Kong,saying the government were going to destroy rolls of toilet paper that had images of the officials against the democracy push on them.

      Just thinking that this would be great idea, imagine the fun with the worst image possible of Jim Murphy! I know there is a huge choice to pick from!Glasgow would relish the fun. As would we all!

    49. Stoker says:

      This thread is more appropriate for the following post so just transferring it from previous articles thread.

      Marcia says:
      “This is one heck of a headline for a newspaper article;”
      https://archive.today/2sYjS
      ___________________________

      The article is also littered with lies and Massie should be reported to the press complaints watchdog IPSO:
      https://www.ipso.co.uk/IPSO/index.html

      Lying bastard Massie invents a deliberate misquote to support and reinforce his racist anti Scottish shite.

      Since Marcia posted that link yesterday i’ve been doing a shoogle on google, just in case i missed something, and NOWHERE can i find Alex Salmond EVER stating that we will “hold England’s feet to the fire.”

      He does, however, state very clearly that we will “hold Westminsters feet to the fire.” One word of a difference but with ENTIRELY different connotations and meaning.

      There is no point in people just moaning about lying turds such as Massie, they should be exposed and reported at EVERY opportunity.

      This is about our countries future well-being and those who are hellbent on preventing our progress MUST be held to account.

      Their credibility should be called into question, exposed and destroyed.

      The Mail should be instructed to issue a correction AND public apology.

    50. Valerie says:

      It’s going to get worse. How would you feel being elbowed away from the trough, when you know deep down, you are not fit for earning a crust?

      SLab have nothing substantive to offer, and more people are finally grasping that fact. More people are aware of their intellectual deficit, the lies etc.

      They threw everything at us to remain part of the Union, where the trough is located, and now they will throw even more, when they are ripped away from the trough.

    51. Josef O Luain says:

      Goebblesdygook!

      Wee Massie displaying yet again that he is the possessor of some unfathomable class of clinical dis-order.

    52. Lollysmum says:

      They really are hurting in a big way now. Everything SLAB tries reflects a scraping of the bottom of the barrel.

      This weekend has seen SNP teams out & about in all areas of Scotland & the evidence posted on Twitter for all the world to see. That must have hurt the Scottish branch of London Labour 🙂

      I’ve only seen 2 photos of Murphy canvassing both pictured with ex Labour councillors -couldn’t he find anyone else to pose with him.It also turns out that he has to pay his canvassers £25 per session. So sad!

      And we hear of wee Dougie Alexander sitting in Morrisons supermarket on his tod trying to drum up votes.I’d take bets that Mhairi Black isn’t out canvassing alone but with a bloody great team behind her after the newspaper articles attempted to rubbish her.

      Where are all these footsoldiers Labour is supposed to have because they certainly don’t seem to be showing themselves very much. Perhaps they only come out at night when there’s a full moon. Or maybe they only lurk on Twitter, getting pelters everytime they stick their head above the parapet because they can’t take rejection on the doorsteps. I’m finding it quite enjoyable given that I was never a fan of Twitter before.

      My guess is those foot soldiers don’t exist beyond MPs,MSPs families & Labour councillors-so what’s that come to 3-400 bodies at a push across Scotland. I’m sure I read somewhere that Glasgow alone has 1000 SNP members probably more 🙂 Roll on May.

    53. Richardinho says:

      Labour are now apparently the party of ‘No means yes’.

      Utterly crazy. :/

    54. Bill Hume says:

      O/T, but Scottish Labour are now trying to claim the yes word for themselves, honestly you could not make this up.

      I immediately thought of Vicky Pollard….Yeah but, no but, yeah but, no but………appropriately enough from ‘LITTLE BRITAIN’

    55. Brian Powell says:

      Does that mean if they vote Labour he is supporting Independence.

    56. weetroot says:

      latest rumour from Slab & Jumbo _ free fish suppers and Irn bru if you let the wee witch , Ms Curran , assist you in filling out your postal vote. Beat that if you can.

    57. Macart says:

      Just wow! 😮

      Full on panic mode from both parties in the media. They truly are so terrified of block SNP representation in Westminster that they don’t know whether they are punched, bored or countersunk.

      Even to the most jaded or cynical observer the signals couldn’t be any clearer. The thought of having to deal with effective Scottish representation in Westminster has the establishment parties pooping themselves.

    58. Effijy says:

      Super Nazi Nationalistic Stasi Independence
      Even though the sound of it is Anglo made up nonsense

      If they say it long enough some eejits might believe it
      Super Nazi Nationalistic Stasi Independence.

      Because I was afraid to speak, when I was just a Lad,
      my father gave my brain a tweek, and told me Labour Bad
      then one day I learned some words, that made me brave an hearty, give your vote to SNP and then we’ll throw a party.

      Hum Deedle Liberal Dumb Dunb Lie! Hum Deedle Liberal Dumb Dunb Lie! Hum Deedle Liberal Dumb Dunb Lie!

      the finest words you ever heard, it’s vote SNP that I propose.

    59. JLT says:

      Lollysmum
      I agree with you in your argument, as in there appears to be no Labour ‘foot soldiers. But the media such as Reporting Scotland, the Record, etc will all make up for those losses in a big way. That’s the Labour ‘army’ that concerns me the most.

    60. Onwards says:

      Politically active voters know it is nonsense, but the average Joe might fall for it.

      SNP need to tackle this head on, and neutralise it.

      We will no doubt see a last minute media blitz with this lie, in the final weeks.
      They have nothing to lose if polls stay the same.

      We need a ‘DON’T LET LABOUR FOOL YOU’ message, loud and clear.

    61. Clootie says:

      Onwards says:
      8 February, 2015 at 1:44 pm

      Important addition

      ‘DON’T LET LABOUR FOOL YOU AGAIN’

    62. KennyG says:

      Fs man, 3 months to go and we’re being linked to stalin. What will it be like in the closing weeks? North Korea? IS? A partnership with Iran to build nuclear power stations and weapons in Scotland?

      Brace yourselves, the storm is coming.

    63. Cactus says:

      That article from Allan Massie is insulting to the now majority of people in Scotland, who intend to vote for positive change with the assistance of the SNP.

      I see Kirsten Oswald is representing East Renfrewshire for Scotlands SNP vote in the GE.. let’s hope she delivers a Knock-Out result to the standing Labour candidate.

      The arrival of the latest poll was the moment that our ‘Candle of Hope’ was re-lit 🙂

    64. Taranaich says:

      What I love is that Allan Massie’s caricatured socialist republic of SNP Scotland sounds absolutely brilliant to me. Oh no, those poor lairds who’ve held these lands in their families for generations… after they were stolen from their original owners during the Highland Clearances. I imagine Mr Massie would be just as vigorous in his defense of American landowners who turfed Native Americans out.

      “Contempt of the rich” – aye, you’re not helping when you’re giving arguments for us.

    65. The Rough Bounds says:

      The only Labour canvassers that have ever come to my door was several years back and the two arrogant arseholes that knocked on my door were both English, bussed up to Scotland with a load of other mouthy English mercenaries to help the local Labour Party in their attempt to defeat the SNP in the by-election that was taking place.

      They didn’t win; the SNP did and we have held that seat for twenty years now.

      I sent the two mendacious mendicants away with a Scots flea in their lugs.

      If Labour ever comes back to this door they’ll get told what I actually think of them, and this time No Mr. Nice Guy.

    66. Tamson says:

      The obvious graffiti-style change to

      Yes for Labour

      is to scrub out the ‘r’ and add a comma and 2 dots thus:

      Yes, f.o. Labour

    67. galamcennalath says:

      For their rear guard action in Scotland, in an attempt to stop their chaotic retreat and annihilation, Labour has only one thing left to offer … deceit!

      They’ve been lying for years and during referendum campaign they began to believe they can make up almost anything, and with their media buddies, get the gullible believe them.

      That is all we will get out of them until May. No honest offers or policies for Scotland, just bucket loads of lies and nonsense.

      To counter it, we broadcast the truth online and in people’s faces. We won’t get through to everyone, but in this case all we need is 45% or more to vote SNP.

      In the face of Labour and media lies, it will be a hard uphill struggle to keep almost half of voters on board. We MUST succeed.

    68. Pog says:

      I wish I didn’t have to say this but I am forced to agree with Massie over his ‘state snooper’ comment. A similar scheme to GIRFEC and the Named Person was tried in the Isle of Man and dumped as a disaster. If it had continued, it was estimated that every child on the Isle of Man would have had Been subject to a referral to social services by the time they were 18. On top of that is the data sharing and the unpleasant assumption that every family is seen as potentially harmful to their children.
      http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_EducationandCultureCommittee/Children%20and%20Young%20People%20%28Scotland%29%20Bill/LlewellynJonesTristramC.pdf

    69. Kevin evans says:

      I suppose the best outcome is snp get 50+ mp’s and labour win the election – put an end once and for all this labour lie

    70. Cuddis says:

      It’s a bit rich of SLab-friendly journos to liken the SNP’s politics to that of every megalomaniac in the I-Spy book of tyrants (although I note that Vlad the Impaler didn’t get a mention). Especially since the Labour Party, North British Branch’s increasingly self-harming election campaign appears to be modelled on Chairman Mao’s Great Leap Backwards (apologies to the Chinese Communist Party for any historical accuracy concerning the direction in which Mao actually leapt; I never paid much attention in Modern Studies.)

    71. George says:

      o/t “project feart” back at work: http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/feb/07/north-sea-oil-bitter-economic-winds-retreat-brent

      for the guardian, one rig decomissioning apparently means the end of life on earth.

    72. Dan Huil says:

      Well, it’s a sure sign unionists have given up on any hope of changing the minds of the 45. They’re only adding to the total of independence supporters.

    73. Ealasaid says:

      Will associating YES with Labour not put the 55% off? After all it is the 45% that are the politically wide awake.

    74. One_Scot says:

      They lied to us constantly before the referendum and got away with it, clearly they think they can do they same again.

      1979 fool Scotland once shame on you, 2014 fool Scotland twice shame on us, 2015 fool Scotland thrice, then clearly politics is above Scotland, and we should not be allowed to use a knife and fork unsupervised.

    75. desimond says:

      Radio duo Mark and Lard used to have a phrase for new catchphrases “Repeat until funny”

      Seems Labour doing similar “Repeat until fanny”

    76. Effijy says:

      Yes For Labour Lies
      Yes for 45 years of continuing failure for Scottish Communities
      Yes for Labour being identical to the Tory Party they work with.

      YES: Yesterday’s Embers of Socialism.
      YES: Your Embarrassing Sycophants.
      YES: Years Emaciating Scotland.
      YES: Yuppiedom Egotistic Substandard.

    77. McBoxheid says:

      @Mail online
      In what way are the SNP communist and loyal to the Soviet State?
      If you are going to rubbish a political party, try at least, as is you duty, to get your facts right. Are you saying that the elected Government of Scotland is communist and loyal to the stalinist doctrine and the Soviet state?
      Funny I thought that collapsed several years ago, a bit like your own circulation figures in Scotland. Sour grapes perhaps?

    78. gerry parker says:

      Del from Livestream is one of those new Labour foot soldiers.

      😉

      Have they asked you out yet Del to do some canvassing for them?

      Your chance to start annoying them?
      Any inside info?

    79. Valerie says:

      @Pog, don’t fall for the scaremongering around the Scottish govt proposal about the appointed person. Only those that have something to fear need worry.

      A child could easily go through life, and their ‘person’ will never be used.

      The appointed person is to ensure ALL agencies co operate when a flag is raised. Scotland is forward thinking, we are the only country in the world to operate a Children’s Panel system, that keeps them out of criminal courts.

      You may remember the fairly recent case of a toddler found dead in Paisley. He had been dead for weeks, and his mother just made up stories to each enquiry as to where he was. One child is one too many, and although the case is extreme, there are large numbers of children missing out on a proper life.

    80. faolie says:

      Thought the funniest thing in the Herald was Jim saying they’re going to knock on 50,000 doors and start the GE campaign early. Really? You and whose army Jim?

    81. Gary45% says:

      One thing is for sure.
      Jim Murphy will always be a FUD, nothing else just a FUD.
      I have known Labour supporters ( some for more than 45years)and if the media swing this vote in favour for the red tories, I will NEVER say another word to any of them,
      To me they cease existing come the election because they know their party has sunk to the absolute depths.
      No vision,No interest in Scotland only themselves.
      Gary

    82. Helena Brown says:

      Just thought I would mention that I have developed a taste for Korean food, just love the old Kim Chi. I don’t know what that makes me?
      Gordon Brown was and is definitely Stalinist so he should know and be able to tell JM what that sounds like, looks like and is.
      David Cameron could obviously say that Nigel is a bit of a Nazi, so there sorted.

    83. Helena Brown says:

      I would like to commend the comments of McBoxheid and Effijy, I loved them both.

    84. Helena Brown says:

      George @ 2.30pm I wonder how much of this is to put off those talking about voting Green in England, bonus I suppose if you annoy the Scots.

    85. Connor Mcewen says:

      Just to point out also, that Daily Mail owns the Metro .Osborne has large shareholding in both.
      Noticed that beeb N.I.Sunday Politics show discussed growth of S.N.P. without S.N.P. member present,while beeb Scotland had “Academic”,unionist place man to denigrate Scottish government

    86. frogesque says:

      Yes became a very strong ‘brand’ during the IRef – much stronger than the negative No/BT ‘brand’.

      Murphy and co, by attempting to steal the Yes brand are, at first sight aligning themselves with the broader post IRef Yes movement.

      To me it is a monumental foot-gob for SLAB to even think about going that road as it now seems they are campaigning for full Indy. Loyal No voters won’t buy it and will switch off to the Tories or Libs and Yes voters we see it for purile desperate attempt to cling to their fiefdom that it is.

      It’s just another stupid own goal from the North British Branch Office that will cost them more votes than it wins.

      As for the Fail on Sunday article I think it insults honest old school Scots Tories far more than it does the SNP and the wider Indy body in Scotland.

    87. Effijy says:

      Love it!

      Fud Smurphy! lol

      It has a ring to it and it could become the new example
      given for defining onomatopoeia!

      You guys are great for naming these clowns.
      Dipity Dug is another Brammer!

    88. Macart says:

      The Mail… utter irony bypass.

      A title which promotes an establishment right wing agenda, the othering of selected segments of society, the active suspicion of all things furren and the smothering of truly democratic movements, likening others to dictatorial, totalitarian regimes.

      Jings, that joke never gets old.

    89. This is a nice wee link. Basically tells us that EVEL means the union is dead.

      http://www.phoenix45.org/?p=336

    90. Cactus says:

      So here we are nearing six months on from the referendum and what new immediate powers has Scotland received.. Nothing!

      At budget times, an increase in fuel duty goes up the same day, no delays there.

      The previous Devo and latest Devo+ should now be known as ‘The Nothing’.

      Infact, there’s an 80’s movie that sums it up nicely.
      I think it was called ‘The Neverending Tory’ 🙂

      Here’s a scene where Atreyu meets Gmork (the servant of the power behind ‘the nothing’).

      Atreyu meets Gmork ~ The Neverending Story
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDHBZlSNO6w

      If you’ve never seen this movie before, check it out.

    91. bookie from hell says:

      titbits

      George Islay MacNeill Robertson, Baron Robertson of Port Ellen KT, GCMG, FRSA, FRSE, PC (born 12 April 1946) is a British Labour Party politician

      1.. When he was 15 years of age, he was involved with protests against US nuclear submarines docking in Britain.

      2.In 1995, Robertson said that “Devolution will kill Nationalism stone dead” while he was Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland

      3.Likened the efforts of Unionists to keep Scotland tied to the UK with those of Abraham Lincoln’s fight against slavery

    92. Democracy Reborn says:

      ‘Yes for Labour’?… Anyone remember the former communist regimes of Eastern Europe calling themselves ‘Democratic Republics’?

    93. The Man in the Jar says:

      Stalinists are we now?

      Oh well I guess we’re all Dame Helen Liddles bairns!

    94. bjsalba says:

      @Pog

      When the Named person was implemented in the Highlands for two years and it resulted in fewer children being referred to Social Services.

      Maybe the Isle of Man should come to Scotland to see what was done differently?

    95. Les Wilson says:

      Sorry O/T
      I followed a link put in an earlier posting which led me to the “Act of Union” document, I came across this little cracker within it

      ” THAT whereas by the Terms of this Treaty, the Subject of Scotland, for preserving an Equality of Trade throughout the United Kingdom, will be lyable to several Customs and excises now payable in England, which will be applicable towards payment of the Debts of England, contracted before the Union;”

      They have been robbing us from day one!

    96. De Valera says:

      The old quote “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, the people will believe it and you may even come to believe it yourself” is so appropriate.

      There is no point in Tory supporting newspapers in Scotland trying to exhort their readership to vote for Cameron, therefore tacit support for the Red Tories is the new strategy. It isn’t much of a leap really.

      There is much more lies and slime to be thrown at us, this is only the start of it.

    97. Robert Peffers says:

      @Bill McLean says:8 February, 2015 at 12:04 pm:

      “Calling names – a reversion to the period of childhood pre-enlightenment.”

      Now let’s see if I can recall the teaching we had for the debating society at school. Name calling, or personal attack, was described as, Argumentum ad Hominem, and was abusive and/or circumstantial: It is the fallacy of attacking the character or circumstances of an individual who is advancing a statement or an argument. This is done instead of trying to disprove the truth of the statement or the soundness of the argument. Most often this argument is characterized simply as a personal attack.

      Furthermore, “The Personal Attack”, is also sometimes termed as an “ad personem argument”: the statement or argument at issue is dropped from consideration or is ignored, and the oponent’s character, or personal circumstances, are used to influence opinion.

      This fallacy gets its appeal from the attacker, “getting personal.” The assumption being that what the opponent is saying is either entirely or partially down to his/her character or special circumstances and so should be disregarded.

      How well does that describe, “Name Calling”, Bill?

    98. Fred says:

      The Slab MP’s must be shiteing like stuckies at present as Murphy makes an arse of their parliamentary prospects. Not entirely the fault of Murphy of course but it’s Murphy who’ll get the blame for the hammering. This unease will doubtless be echoed at Holyrood, Murphy is toxic and they know it, they’ll be lucky to hang on to their own seats never mind finding a safe seat for Murphy & his ego. What then for the man who would be First Minister?
      Where’s Henry McLeish when you need him?

    99. JaMur says:

      Cretin Murphy and das mail have changed this yes supporter to a yes labour supporter.
      Jim knows what’s best for us and what a lovely smile.

    100. Thepnr says:

      This type of propaganda is becoming less and less effective. The more that the lies are exposed, the greater the need to lie becomes.

      It is a downward spiral and the liars will pay for it.

    101. Robert Peffers says:

      Dancing in the Streets of Raith tonight. Wayha!

    102. Paula Rose says:

      Is that full-page advertisement in the Daily Record booked yet?

    103. Stoker says:

      Numbers steadily rising – c’mon folks, lets give it laldie.
      https://www.facebook.com/events/779063018851870/?pnref=story
      🙂

    104. chris kilby says:

      No further proof necessary. Labour ARE dribbling morons.

    105. TheItalianJob says:

      @Robert Peffers

      Yes watched it on BBC Scotland Didn’t realise it was our 1st win ever over Rangers in the Scots Cup

    106. TheGreatBaldo says:

      Worth pointing out this before folk start getting steamed into and pissy with the wrong Massie.

      The author of the piece is Allan, the father of the Spectator’s Alex.

      Now Alex maybe a Tory (boo) Unionist lick spittle etc but he is actually a reasonably sane and balanced commentator on Scottish matters….at least compared to his old man anyway.

    107. G4jeepers says:

      Canvassed by the SNP (2 ex Yessers I met during the ref).
      Invited them in for a sit doon and a wee blether, half an hour, nice folk.
      Same happened next door and two doors down.
      Heaven knows how many doorz they chapped but at this rate it will take years to get round everyone! Still, very upbeat and very organised.
      Food for thought…

      Great to see all this enthusiasm despite the negativity.

    108. john king says:

      Kevin Evens says
      “I suppose the best outcome is snp get 50+ mp’s and labour win the election – put an end once and for all this labour lie”

      But Kevin how far do we go to ensure Labour win in England?
      they are so hopeless under Miliband, the only way he’ll win is if the SNP bus REAL activists down south to canvass for him. 🙂

    109. Graeme Doig says:

      Stoker

      Followed up on your intel. Cheers mister.
      Here it is – bit long winded

      Allan Massie includes a quote by Alex Salmond in this article. Massive writes “As Salmond, defeated in September but hoping to return to the Commons as an MP, charmingly put it, he hopes ‘to hold England’s feet to the fire’.” I think that, if massive wishes to check, he will find that Salmond has never used these words. Salmond has, in fact, used the phrase “hold Westminsters feet to the fire” but has never added the word ‘England’ into this. It would appear that Massie has misquoted this phrase to make it sound inflammatory in an attempt to paint Salmond, the SNP and by extension nearly 50% of the Scottish population as anti-English. This is a very dangerous use of his high profile as a journalist. I, therefor, wish to complain in the strongest terms about Massie’s disregard for truthful reporting and, further more, he uses the lie to suit the tone of his article in whipping up resentment. Utterly reprehensible behavour for someone in his position. Massie’s lazy use of the term ‘Stalinist’ in the headline in reference to a very popular Scottish government also reflects a journalist who seems to have little grasp of his subject matter.

    110. Davy says:

      YES, Labour for austerity.

      YES, We’re the other tory party.

      YES, Labour ‘for you name it, weel promise it’.

      YES, For your pick a colour tory party.

      YES, For your lucky dip policy party.

      YES, for your “what referendum ?” nothing to do with us labour party.

      YES, Vote for what’s my deputy’s name again ???

      YES, I am a proud Scot of red tory party, oh sorry that was yesterdays speech.

      Vote Scotland, Vote strength, Vote SNP.

    111. Stoker says:

      @ Graeme Doig (5.50pm)

      Excellent, Graeme, perfectly put.
      😉

    112. Graeme Doig says:

      Stoker

      Just re-read. ‘Massie’ has become ‘massive’ at some point. Maybe just his ego 😉

    113. Paula Rose says:

      @ john king

      I know honey – it really is worrying, but then I presume many new members of the SNP are au fait with left of centre political ideology, so as I have already pointed out – the left tradition in the UK is safe with a strong SNP showing.

    114. Ronnie says:

      Good Grief!

      Can they never think up something original, all on their own?

      They even pinched the ‘Better Together’ slogan from the Scottish NHS.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Together_(programme)

      Sad people.

    115. Ricky says:

      Effijy.

      Superb comment . singing it around the house.

      Were;s Jock when you need him.. 🙂 this is a sure fire hit.

    116. Bill McLean says:

      Like your comment Robert on “name calling”. I don’t like it in the press but it can be laughed at. I really dislike it on this site as it puts newcomers off. I have been called names myself – just a laugh as it’s never difficult to discern why the perpetrators reduce themselves to it. This is a great site and a great support for our cause. Let’s keep it that way!

    117. Onwards says:

      @Davy
      Vote Scotland, Vote strength, Vote SNP.

      Perhaps the SNP should counter it something along these lines.

      YES FOR SCOTLAND – with a big SNP logo

      Then folks have a choice of YES’s

      For the Labour Party or for Scotland !

    118. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dointhebiz says:8 February, 2015 at 12:14 pm:

      “an item declaring that the average reader will only read a small percentage of an article “Headlines” are all important, …”

      You are, of course, assuming they are aiming their headline at those who support them who can actually read. You will note these headlines, in the rat-bag press, are usually printed above a, (usually Photoshopped), picture.

    119. tooz says:

      The plan is working perfectly.

    120. David says:

      @ Iain at 12:23pm, yup we see wot you dun, a wee subtle smear of Allan “Hatstand” Massie by referencing Lenny Reeferstool’s classic propaganda film.

      He deserves it. As others have pointed out, Massie deliberately mis-quoted Alex Salmond’s phrase “holding Westminster’s feet to the fire”, to incite more anti-Scottish feeling in Mail readers. The fake phrase is used not once but twice in the article.

      Like the Daily Mail, Allan Massie is a really nasty piece of work.

    121. David says:

      As a follow-up, the Mail’s did indeed “resist the temptation to bring up Mugabe.”

      He didn’t need to mention Mugabe, one of the commentators below the line did that for him!

      “The commissars of Scotland are following the footsteps of Josef Stalin, Mao Zedung and Robert Mugabe to the letter – land resettlement by the proletariat is the necessary first step in the establishment of a communist dictatorship.”

      Dear oh dear.

    122. Craig P says:

      If David Cameron really does want the SNP to wipe out Labour then Labour are fucked.

      On the other hand it seems more likely to me that the Conservatives would want to help out their fellow unionists. There’s only two tactics left for Labour: ‘vote SNP get Tory’ and personal smearing of individual candidates. So it’s not beyond the realms of possibility that Cameron might instruct the security services in giving the Daily Record a hand in uncovering any dirt on SNP candidates.

    123. geeo says:

      “Forced sales of country estates”

      Or…

      Retrospective estate planning permission refused subject to compulsory purchase order…? 
      ……
      Labour for YES….

      Yer

      Erse

      Smurph-bag…
      …..
      “Scotland is ‘better together’ …..

      Without labour

      Without tories

      Without libdems

      Without Austerity

      Without Trident

      Without Poverty

      Without ….etc..etc..

    124. davidb says:

      Re canvassers calling above.

      If you are a die hard SNP voter please encourage the canvassers but don’t delay them for half an hour a time. They need to speak to the swing voters, not the diehard Unionists, or our own solid patriots.

      But if you are unswervingly impossible to shift SNP do feel free to detain any Labour canvassers for ever. Make them tea. Keep them off the streets where they can only spread lies and do their malicious work.

    125. Robert Peffers says:

      @frogesque says:8 February, 2015 at 3:26 pm:

      “Yes became a very strong ‘brand’ during the IRef – much stronger than the negative No/BT ‘brand’.

      Murphy and co, by attempting to steal the Yes brand are, at first sight aligning themselves with the broader post IRef Yes movement.

      Aye!frigesque, trouble for them is that YES has not gone away. If they come around me cottage they will see YES stickers in the windows, Yes stickers all over my campervan

    126. geeo says:

      Labour fiscal record…

      Stuck between a (Northern Rock) and a hard place….
      ……….
      Take an advert out in the anti scottish media…

      “Vote UKIP, and we will throw sponging Scotland out the Union”

    127. Robert Peffers says:

      @

      Effijy says: 8 February, 2015 at 3:26 pm:

      Love it! Fud Smurphy! lol: It has a ring to it and it could become the new example given for defining onomatopoeia! You guys are great for naming these clowns.
      Dipity Dug is another Brammer!

      Don’t forget, “Wassa”, Marra, Effijy

    128. North chiel says:

      “AYE” FOR SCOTLAND VOTE SNP

    129. Robert Peffers says:

      @TheItalianJob says:8 February, 2015 at 5:31 pm:

      “Yes watched it on BBC Scotland Didn’t realise it was our 1st win ever over Rangers in the Scots Cup”

      Then I’d bet you don’t remember a Hibs vs Raith cup tie that took five games to settle it. This back in the days when there were no subs and no penalty shootouts. Strange thing is I’m damned if I can remember who eventually won. It was a long time ago, though.

    130. Paula Rose says:

      I think we should have a “Wings Commenter Of The Year Award”

      and I nominate Robert Peffers for dedication to elucidation.

    131. Bruce says:

      Mail Online bought Viz.

    132. MorvenM says:

      Another complaint to IPSO about the Mail:

      Clauses breached

      Clause 1 (Accuracy)
      The entire article is an inaccurate, hate-filled rant, aimed at the democratically elected government of Scotland and its supporters. My particular complaint is that Mr Massie twice quotes Alex Salmond as hoping to ‘hold England’s feet to the fire’. By using inverted commas, he gives the impression that this is a literal quotation of something which Mr Salmond said. In fact, the expression Mr Salmond used was ‘hold Westminster’s feet to the fire’, which clearly refers to the UK government and not the people of England. Mr Massie is using invented commas to give readers the false impression that Mr Salmond made an anti-English statement, which he did not and never has. The least the Daily Mail should do is withdraw this allegation and apologise for it.

      Never made a complaint about a paper before, but might be getting a taste for it. 🙂

    133. thoughtsofascot says:

      But if you are unswervingly impossible to shift SNP do feel free to detain any Labour canvassers for ever. Make them tea. Keep them off the streets where they can only spread lies and do their malicious work.

      That’s what my mother plans to do. She’s taken down all the yes and SNP livery from the house and car and hopes to sucker in the thicko labour councillors and astroturfed activists who will come around (Curran won’t. She doesn’t campaign, she photo-ops). She plans to draw them in and let them speak of the great evils of the SNP and how wonderful labour has been for the cesspool that is Glasgow East (Look at the boarded up houses!), then when they are done, its all out attack mode. No mercy verbal slaughter.

    134. Fixitfox says:

      Ooft! I’m taking the rest of the day off to read this comments section. And BTW, I’m proud to be a “Tartan Tosspot” courtesy of Mr MacKenzie in The SoreAway Sun.

    135. Imac says:

      I have said it once and i will say it a thousand more times…give this man and his cronies as much airtime and column inches as unionist rags can handle…

      Why as he is doing an excellent job of proving the point he is utterly inept, incompetent and above all incapable of being responsible for leading a nation.

      SLAB are finished as are the Tories and Lib/Dem…their is nothing viable of salient about anything they stand for as Scotland is seeking clarity on several wide sweeping issues that can only be delivered via a progressive style of politics and none of the aforementioned parties can deliver what Scotland demands!!!

    136. Robert Peffers says:

      @Paula Rose says: 8 February, 2015 at 9:39 pm:

      “I think we should have a “Wings Commenter Of The Year Award”, and I nominate Robert Peffers for dedication to elucidation.”

      Och! Paula, I can take no credit for dreaming up these matters. I’m just gifted with a good and long memory. A bit like a Parrot really. I sop up what really gifted thinkers have said in the past and parrot them where I can.

      “Squawk! Polly want’s a cracker”.

      I owe much to a dedecated teacher of history who made that subject live and exciting and an old Legal Eagle I often shared a lunchtime park bench with. He was a dedicated Nationalist and took the time to impart his legal opinions with a budding young schoolboy nationalist. The old guy taught me the legal positions of historic events and treaties while the teacher made old history relevant to today’s events.

    137. tartanarse says:

      Well Jim wants to take ownership of the word YES. Where will it all end? He has already taken ownership of “absolute” and “tosser”.

      Plus many more. He plans to steal our voice by owning all the words.

      And he’ll say them really creepily too.

    138. tartanarse says:

      I would also nominate Robert for a gong. He modestly claims to be parroting others but the fact is that even if he is, he doesn’t half remember a lot of stuff and much of it is factual and relevant.

    139. Macart says:

      @ Robert Peffers

      Since its already been seconded, I’ll third the recommendation. 🙂

    140. Calum McLean says:

      All joking apart, is it not possible to refer the Labour Party “FACT” lie of #voteSNPgetTory to some regulatory authority for proper scrutiny and legal remedy? As a voter I am sick to the gills of being lied to – for decades. Enough is enough. I know it seems a basic question, but when a statement by a political party seeking pecunary advantage – to become a well paid government ministers for example – is obtained by using deception and lies, I would like a new principle set and MORE of these charlatans jailed. The Westminster Expenses Scandal has given this mere voter an appetite for sending more of these miscreants to where they belong. #BarlinnieNotWestminster

    141. IAB says:

      I work abroad and troll the Daily Mail boards for anti-Scottish articles. During the Referendum campaign, I was frequently sent “Due the large number of complaints, your comment has been removed’. I notice the tide starting to turn when the Scottish nurse contracted ebola. I started flagging abusive remarks and contacted the editor. I made a comment about the anti-Scottish trolling and had 33000+ green arrows, the article comments were reviewed and they moderated. It happened to a lesser extent with the bin lorry tragedy but again, they moved. With the Stalinist article, if you are not used to the trolls (mainly UKIP) it looks bad but I have seen more positive comments about the Scots and more comments about Tory spin and lies in the ‘newspaper’ – the tide is turning. If you want a laugh, read the UKIP comments. They believe the DM is changing their arrow scores because they are afraid of the ‘truth’.

    142. tartanarse says:

      I spent a lot of time doing the same thing with various papers pre ref and would often rib the “paid trolls” about their ack of knowledge of Scotland and their inability to even spell.

      This despite their 60k upvotes for 20k comments although their accounts were only weeks old.

      These peaked pre ref obviously. Some of them were even stupid enough to forget which troll they were.

      I fear they are now back again. I don’t really spend much time doing it now.

      It’s a bit of sport for when bored.

    143. Graeme Doig says:

      MorvenM

      Good stuff. Who knows if complaining makes any difference but doing nothing certainly won’t.

      Keep it up. Lets the bastards know they are being watched 🙂

    144. Will Podmore says:

      tartanarse bemoans trolls’ “ack [sic] of knowledge of Scotland and their inability to even spell.” What about his inability not to split infinitives?



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