FAO the Scottish Conservatives
The Scottish Tories have issued a rather pompous press release today, seemingly based on the curiously mistaken assumption that their 15 Holyrood MSPs out of 130 are in a position to give orders to the Scottish Government
Scottish Conservative finance spokesman Gavin Brown MSP said:
As others have noted, it’s interesting that the Tories appear to assume the SNP will be in power at Holyrood for at least the next decade. But while we can’t speak for the Finance Secretary, perhaps the reason he didn’t waste any of his valuable ministerial time answering the Conservatives’ demand was that he knew Wings Over Scotland had already done it for him two-and-a-half months ago – and in fact for 20 years of “demographic timebomb”, not just 10. If there’s anything else the Tories would like to know that we’ve already comprehensively established, feel free to point them our way.
Once again: we’re more than happy to accept the Unionist parties’ assertions that Scotland couldn’t afford to pay for universal services if it stayed in the UK. But there’s an alternative to staying in the UK, under which we CAN afford them. We are, as always, grateful to the anti-independence campaign for pointing the fact out.
It seems to me that the Tories have every right to comment on universalism, after all they are universally hated in most areas of Scotland.
This is how the Unionist parties try to detract from the real work by attempting to tie up the time by stupid trivial nonsense yet another sign of their complete lack of understanding of what the Scottish people need and want.
I’ve set a deadline of the end of today for the ‘Scottish’ Conservatives to say anything remotely of interest to the Scottish electorate.
Tick, tock..
It’s astonishing that the No campaign have chosen this as a battleground. It’s hard to imagine anyone not of the rabid right who would argue that looking after the elderly in society is a bad thing – any nation should aspire to do so.
You’d have thought Better Together’s energy would be focussed on showing how all the good things which have come with devolution can be sustained within a UK context, not how they have to be done away with.
By the way, your previous article linked to above points out that your calculations don’t incorporate any savings made in hospitals due to the elderly being cared for in their own homes. I had a similar discussion with Michael McCann MP a week or two ago in relation to free prescriptions.
I read this press release yesterday and was surprised at the tone of it; I almost tugged a forelock.
The continual attacks from the No parties on our budgetary priorities are a London based effort to discredit any alternative to their austerity measures.
Scotland cannot be allowed to show the fairness that is missing from UK politics and the longer that we stay in the Union the more the pressure will increase to bring us back into line.
The referendum has become more than an independence vote – it has become an ideological struggle between the neoliberal agenda and the social democratic alternative which we still have hope in.
The UK Tories have ‘Land of Hope and Glory’ as their ‘theme’ tune, perhaps the Scottish Tories should have ‘Land of no-hope Tories’ as theirs?
You can enjoy a few upcoming scare stories right here:
http://www.bbc.scotlandshire.co.uk/index.php/city-news/127-sacres.html
“Five shocking Scotsman scare stories for 2013”
Ruth Davidson is actually quite touching. She’s the ultra competitive member of the school debating team who is so determined to score a point that she loses sight of the argument. We get the careful articulation, the modulation of pace, tone and volume (not forgetting the ever so important hand gestures and eye contact) leading up to the killer question or crushing statement that no-one other than she imagines is important. I wonder where she will be in ten year’s time.
@Cuphook – “The referendum has become more than an independence vote – it has become an ideological struggle between the neoliberal agenda and the social democratic alternative which we still have hope in.”
I think that this a very important point and could be a game changer in the debate. I think the YES campaign must promote the idea that an independent Scotland will be a socially just Scotland and that to remain in the union means that the poor get poorer and the rich get richer. Vote YES for social justice.
An interesting population table from a Guardian poster:
Year SCO ENG
1911 4.7M 33M
1921 4.8M 35M
1931 4.8M 37M
1951 5.0M 41M
1961 5.2M 43M
1971 5.2M 45M
1981 5.1M 46M
1991 5.0M 48M
2001 5.0M 49M
2011 5.2M 53M
Don’t know if it’s accurate. We now have the same population we had in 1961, whereas England’s population has grown 25%. To me that shows the difference in the economies, in spite of oil we’ve at best stood still, whereas England, presumably the South-East and London, has prospered.
The population also didn’t start growing again until devolution.
‘demanded’… Tories are an anathema to decent humanity society and a dire insult to the generosity of the human spirit.
15… fifteen too many; moreover there are twice as many pandas in Scotland as there should be Tory MPs.
It’s a crying shame that the Tory border region elected one — a most anti-Scottish thing to do; one supposes that will be a NO region come the vote.
‘demanded’… do bggr off
Didn’t supermarkets have to remove sweeties from beside the check-outs because of demanding bairns?
I want, i want, i want!!!!
Perhaps Swinney should point out that the main cause of the “demographic timebomb” is population stagnation in Scotland, attribute it correctly to misuse of Scotland’s oil by successive Westminster Governments, especially Tory ones. Point to the increase in population since devolution, and explain as if to a child, how much better it could be with Independence.
As Corporal Jones would have said: “They don’t like it up ’em”.
I think I said this ages ago on the Guardian, but never here.
What the SNP, as he government in Scotland, should be doing is presenting alternative budgets. This would be the budget they would be presenting IF Scotland were independent, and Swinney had controls over all the financial “levers”.
This would do two things: first it would show how much better off we’d be with Indy, and secondly it would demonstrate his ability to present a full budget as Osborne does, rather that the strangulated one he is forced to do.
And his answer to questions like the above from the Tories is something like: “our 10 year plan for tackling this problem under the current devolution settlement is blah blah blah. This is plan B. Our 10 year plan under independence is blah blah blah, this is plan A”.
I think he’s completely entitled, consideriing we are having a referendum, to present two versions of the plan, completely entitled. In fact perhaps there is a duty on him, to do so.
That’s an excellent idea.
Great idea dads!
@dadsarmy
I wondered the same thing after the SNP formed the government and then it struck me: can you imagine the hysteria in the press? There’d be accusations of fantasy politics, presumption, false figures… all of which would have been used to ridicule the idea of independence. If the budget was a pound out it would be used to show the ineptitude of the SNP and be held as further proof of Scotland’s inabilities.
As I’ve said before, the UK exchequer could teach the Mafia a thing or two about book keeping and the truth is that we can’t really know how rich Scotland is till after independence. From what we can gather we’ll be okay, a bit better than at present, but until we are actually in control of our own finances we just don’t know the actual figures. I for one think we’ll be surprised at how rich we are. The truth was enough to scare the UK governments of the 70s – and they knew.
@Cuphook.
The Scottish Government could make it clear that the revenue was a conservative estimate, as Westminster has been lying for decades. McCrone, etc?
@Juteman
You don’t think that the media would make a meal of that accusation?
They still peddle the myth that we might not be entitled to our own oil wealth.
@Cuphook
I think the MSM are losing any authority they once had.
I’d agree that they’ve lost some, but the power of TV still dazzles a lot of people, particularly older generations. You could make an incontrovertible fact on this blog but if people read a different spin on it in the mainstream media they are still liable to give it more credence.
I think the MSM have reached the point that crying wolf has lost any effect.
Nothing weakens an opponent more than laughter.
@Cuphook
Yes, the MSM might try to make a meal out of such a “fantasy” budget.
However, to do so they’d have to actually discuss the financial position on Independent Scotland, and by doing so that would in itself be supporting the cause of Independence! I would love to see they try – there’d be all sorts of independent experts checking over the figures and doing reports, including the IFS and the IPPR.
It would be wonderful.
You speculated recently on why Lamont trashed the agenda with her now notorious ‘something for nothing’ speech. It may be that there is an agreement between the Unionist parties to present a uniform policy front in advance of the 2014 referendum. If it looked as if Labour represented a more enlightened view of things but were unlikely to win in 2015, then Labour voters might be rather inclined to swing behind independence in 2014. Best if everyone says austerity is unavoidable and the MSM continue to normalise that as the view of all right-thinking people.
Look at this for perfect timing. Draft budget 2013/14 was set out on 20 September 2012. Parallel budgets then (devolution v Indy) 2014/2015 around 20 Sep 2013. Gives IPPR and co plenty of time to set up their spreadsheets and analysis tools before 2014.
20 September 2014 – draft budgets – devolution + Indy one.
October / November 2014 – Referendum.
What a way to focus the economic debate! Especially as by then it’s almost inevitable the SG will have to start cutting services etc. because of cuts to the block grant.
@dadsarmy
They don’t have to discuss it; they just have to discredit it. News reporting, for reasons that are too long to go into here, is a very negative medium. The media works best with bad news and no newspaper has been founded with the intention of providing us with uplifting stories of our human endeavour. People believe the media to a greater degree than you’d think and tend to agree with it that the world is devoid of goodness. You don’t have to convince people, you just have to make them doubt and they’ll fill in the rest – ‘nothing is as good as it seems’.
As to independent experts – what makes you think that they’ll be reported?
Things are changing with the ‘new’ media but TV still rules when it comes to news.
‘…with TV, only the few very rich and powerful can speak, and they will be heard around the world immediately. Freedom requires diverse, independent thinking; but television produces uniform dependent thinking.’
Four Arguments for the Elimination of Television – Jerry Mander
@Cuphook. People believe the media to a greater degree than you’d think and tend to agree with it that the world is devoid of goodness. You don’t have to convince people, you just have to make them doubt and they’ll fill in the rest – ‘nothing is as good as it seems’.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2012/12/the_best_polling_on_how_americans_want_to_fix_the_budget_and_avert_the_fiscal.html
“The least popular deficit reduction options, by a significant margin, were cuts to entitlement programs. Only 27 percent of [US citizens] respondents supported cutting Social Security for the elderly, and only 34 percent supported cutting Medicare. These findings are consistent with other public opinion research, but what’s striking here is that people were reluctant to cut Social Security and Medicare even when they fell short of their deficit reduction target, and were forced to consider more of the options we gave them.
They’re in the same boat as people in the UK. Same increasingly right-wing party politics with nobody to vote for as all sides increasingly offering the same. Hence US electoral turnouts are as low as those in the UK.
Have faith in your fellow man; the vast majority of them are good.
@dadsarmy
That’s a great idea…sadly the Unionist response would be…..
1.Rubbish any Indy Budget as fantasy economics..like legal opinions, you can produce an economist to hail you as a genius/eejit upon request
2.Mock Outrage at the cost in terms of Scottish Office Civil Servants who would be required to prepare such a budget and the now traditional ‘politicising the Civil Service’ claims etc etc
@scottish_skier
I do have faith in humanity; it’s the problem with how we receive our news I was trying to highlight.
The link that you provided shows that the poll was among a self-selecting group. By definition these people are active and not the passive recipients of news; they are not the general population. The austerity measures will only work if people doubt an alternative, and that is what the UK parties and the media (by its design) are doing.
It’s not the only book on the subject but two more quotes:
“If you decide to watch television, then there’s no choice but to accept the stream of electronic images as it comes. Since there is no way to stop the images, one merely gives over to them. More than this, one has to clear all channels of reception to allow them in more cleanly. Thinking only gets in the way.”
“The horror of television, is that the information goes in, but we don’t react to it. It goes right into our memory pool and perhaps we react to it later but we don’t know what we’re reacting to. When you watch television you are training yourself not to react and so later on, you’re doing things without knowing why you’re doing them or where they came from.”
@cuphook
When obama first took office, the turnout jumped 7%. People had a glimmer of hope again. Sadly, as he has struggled to make any major changes and had to compromise too much with the right, the turnout dropped again this time round.
I spend quite a bit of time on a UK-wide forum with a politics section (a weather forum, me being a geek in this respect too). There are a lot of people in England who would love their own SNP/proper centrist to left leaning parties with a PR parliament. They just don’t have that option. With the Lib dems having betrayed their core values, many voters are completely at a loss.
The 15% of the UK electorate which gave up voting when New Labour appeared is a travesty. Funny thing is, if Ed wants to win the next election, he’d have a better chance moving back to the real centre or slightly left leaning. But then the (corporate) powers that be don’t want that to happen.
It will happen in time though, for the move to the economic right / social authoritarian seen in the UK and the US will result in societal/governmental collapse and a return to the left at some point. History tells us that. Thankfully Scotland is getting out early and correcting the balance here before the shit really hits the rUK fan.
@scottish_skier
Hope can indeed win; but it takes a lot less effort to make someone doubt a proposition than it does to convince them of it. Doubt is a simple but very effective weapon and plays into the hands of the devil we know. People don’t have to fear independence – they just have to doubt it to vote ‘NO’ or stay at home. That’s why the SNP are trying to give us unnecessary certainties and convince us that nothing will really change. They tell us that Elizabeth will be Queen of Scots and, by implication, that the monarchy will continue; but can you really see Charles III King of Scots?
I do think that we will win; however, I am aware, for the reasons that I’ve been explaining, that it’ll take a far greater effort to do so than that required by the No campaign. And that is not to diminish our message.
Is it true that the average Tory uses his tongue to wipe his arse?
Of course the MSM will try to attack any SNP proposition but it is better to outline your vision than appear to have none??
The reason why Salmond was attacked as a liar over membership of Europe was because he didn’t say I can’t talk to Europe (as the UK is the member state and diplomacy demands no discussion) but if he had said that and then outlined the logic of continued membership he would have had a better outcome?? The SNP need to portray their vision and as was suggested present it as a hypothetical budget with spending on eg universal benefits and not Trident etc
Do we need that sort of crudity? It only plays into the hands of the opposition.
I think the average Tory is like my neighbour. A lovely person and a good friend, but with very very weird views on WMDs at the seaside.
(That was aimed at Ronald, of course.)
Aye. I know it’s tempting to vent, but as I’ve said over and over, we need to talk as if undecided voters are reading, because they are. This isn’t a social club – if we only reach people who’re already definite Yes voters then there’s no point in existing.
O/T but apetition has been launched requesting that the BBC act ‘impartially’ on referendum matters.
Sign it at
Apologies but this bloodymachine won’t allow me to paste at first postingof the day.
Sign it at: http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/43631
One of my heroes is the Tory MP, Rory Stewart, who wrote the fantastic book, “The Places In Between”, after walking across Afghanistan.
Well worth a read.
I will most definately invest copious amounts of good old fashioned endeavour into persuading every person I can to voting Yes, however, I only hope those undecided that I don’t get the chance to speak to can see through the lies and scare stories they will be fed by the TV and newspapers.
It’s a sickening prospect having to fight these “institutions” who are supposed to be the last word in integrity.
UK democracy my arse! They’re all “Better Together” for one thing and that’s to continue shafting Scotland for everything it can.
If your undecided ask yourself this. If we’re so poor and rely on Westminster subsidies then why is London so bloody desperate to keep a hold of us? Surely they would welcome getting rid of something that was costing them in these times of austerity?
The answer is simple. We’re a free cashline machine for them that they can also use to dump their $hit and nuclear bombs in without running the fear of upsetting Mr & Mrs Twistleton-Wykeham-Fiennes in Basingstoke.
You can stop it in it’s tracks by voting Yes in 2014. It really is that simple 🙂
Apologies for the rant folks 🙁
Thinking about the earlier posts re the Scottish Government setting out a ‘possible’ budget.
It seems the SNP are damned if they do, and damned if they don’t.
Surely the positive message would win in the end? Any counter arguement would be seen as an attack on the capabilities of the Scottish people.
Who gives a monkeys what they say.
Happy New Year, and lang may yer lums reek.
Sorry O/T
Tom Harris continues to do a GRAND job for the YES campaign.
https://twitter.com/TomHarrisMP/status/286492079461376002
Lang may his lumb reek.
Happy New Year all from sunny Athens.
@Rabb
No need to apologise! I enjoy reading pro-independence rants! I need to get out a good rant myself, now and again. It helps us to purge ourselves of the poison we read and hear from the No lot day after day.
‘Pro-independence rants for the soul’ …. Mmm, book possibilities there somewhere?! 🙂
@Rev Stu
“Aye. I know it’s tempting to vent, but as I’ve said over and over, we need to talk as if undecided voters are reading, because they are. This isn’t a social club – if we only reach people who’re already definite Yes voters then there’s no point in existing.”
Seconded!
I expect the SG White Paper due in the autumn will spell out in detail what will happen under independence including budgets, fanciful or otherwise as our rabid MSM will certainly paint it.
I see no point in offering ourselves up to be pilloried by these unionist rags. The John McLennan’s and Brian Taylor’s and Cochrane’s and Brian Ashcroft’s of our ken will gladly rubbish with gay abandon and even less journo scrutiny, any and every piece of info John Swinney puts up, so why feed them? They have garnered ziltch respect with reports to date and it makes not a whit of difference to them.
There is internationalist interest in Scotland’s conduct and manner over this process – that is the level we need to pitch at.
As history shows – the most effective piece of identity as a nation in our treasure chest is recognition at the time by the Pope of seven centuries ago. Not as England or any part of England – but as an independent nation.
Give the people the true figures into every household, show them the future road, bumps and all, show it over 10 years with costs and gains and let the debates function from that platform not crazy Davidson and Rennie’s wierd mis-calculations. Talk sense and get respect.
Mmm, a new scam for me anyway. Just goes to show it’s worth googling the return address domain name or company name, before taking any action.
Subject: “xxxx domain and keyword in CN”
… But after checking it, we find this name
conflict with your company name or trademark.
… confirm whether this company is your distributor or business
partner in China”
Just thought I’d warn peeps. Normally I ignore but I do do a few small sales in China, and would do more happily.
I demand a brand new Aston Martin DB9 and a fishing holiday in Florida, but no bugger listens to me either. 🙁
On dads budgetary idea – I agree, an excellent suggestion. It doesn’t matter what the press or the opposition do in the face of it. Its really leading them to places they’d rather not go. They’d be forced to defend a UK buget based on south east principles, bloated financial services in W1 and massive overspend on WMDs. They’d also have to answer the question of why they could count on the extra reggio income from the north sea but somehow Scotland should not. Inconvenient truths yes?. The Westminster parties would have nowhere to hide as they would have their figures examined just as minutely. I know whose budeget would stand up to the closer scrutiny. 🙂
Dad’s Army,
Year SCO ENG
1911 4.7M 33M
Just an odd thought…
The population of Scotland back in 1911 is 4.7 million. Chances are that the 4.7 are actually all Scots. No one is really travelling and living in other countries like they do today.
The recent Census said Scotland’s population is now up to 5.2 million. However, take away the other ‘White british / other nationals ‘ from our population, and we are left with 4,459,071 actual Scots.
If this is correct …our population has not grown for over a century. In fact, actual Scots is less than the population of 1911. We really have stood still !!! – absolutely shocking.
@JLT
Yes, it takes a bit of thinking about. The SG have been on about encouraging immigration, and I had my doubts. Surely it’s better to put current residents in jobs, than import labour, and training people rather than importing skills. But, well, we do need to grow. As well as perhaps encourage a higher birth rate, whether resident white Scots, English, or any other colour or nationality. Perhaps a few brownouts might do the job …
I’d like to know though, how much is a lower birth rate, and how much is diaspora. And even categorised to unskilled, skilled, technical or professional. A major reason I want, and have for nearly 40 years, Independence, is to give us the chance to encourage HQs, head offices, research facilities, specialised manufacturing, electronic and technical, the works. So as to give, not just jobs, but aspirational and challenging jobs. Quality of work, not just quantity. Aye well.
A thought that’s struck me a fair bit over recent weeks is that it’s not the YES campaign, the SNP, Greens, SSP, SDA, Lab for Indy, nor even the STUC that’s going to win a YES vote, it’s just ordinary punters thinking it through for themselves. Including the likes of that guy from St Andrews, university researchers or report writers, anyone looking at all the figures and stuff that gets churned out the next year or so by the SG or UKG, and thinking it through. With a little help from their friends …
I honestly find it hard to imagine any prospect at all of a large NO vote.
OT: someone Hogmanay posted a youtube link and as always that got me wandering, via Fairport with Sandy Denny “Fotheringay”, eventually looking for Hamish Imlach for Old Whisky and Young Women – not to be found. I have it on vinyl. But my brownout line above made me think of another of his with the line: “Ten people out of nine agree it’s better in the dark“. Full lyrics (not for the extremely delicate) at:
http://www.singlewithkids.co.uk/forum/general-advice/s-a-d-(/msg54575/?PHPSESSID=atb5q461ioqishal1u2ncaupf3#msg54575
Sorry Rev 😉
I believe you’re right dads, it will just be the ordinary bod thinking things through who will come to the right conclusion. Many on these and other threads, and I include myself in this, have had a damn good rant about the SGs lack of media clout and the wall of unionist propaganda ranged against us, yet for all that the core positive vote for independence has hardly wavered. In fact I’d say that what used to be considered the soft no vote may very well be on the turn. I’ll be curious to see the next set of polling figures from the larger polling groups. My point being that for all the supposed damage the year of team GB was meant to do to independence in 2012, well it didn’t happen. The worst poll I believe had independence down around a solid 32-34% yet faith in the SG and desire for Scotland to run its own show short of independence up as high as 76-78% I believe. The desire to do things our own way, with our own priorities is clearly there. It won’t take much for the undecided or the soft no to go that extra yard and those are good figures to start the next years campaign on. All the SG have to do is continue to provide good prudent governance and let the YES campaign carry the ball.
Macart, the majority of “soft” no voters and undecideds haven’t really thought hard about the referendum yet, but they will engage, soon. And they will go searching for the truth. Information has never been more available and those that seek will find what they are looking for. There may still be a problem with the sceptical, older generation (many of whom have no internet access), but those professional, middle class scots, whom everyone seems to be worried about, will certainly be able to find the facts for themselves. Wings and other sites will continue to make a huge contribution to the debate.
That’s very much the feeling I have Luigi. This year especially as things start to really kick off, people will start paying attention. The more they look, the more they find, the more they find, the more they’ll think. I believe its the one thing the opposition are truly terrified of, a thinking electorate.
Hi Dadsarmy,
One thing I’m sure I read on Wikipedia was the amount of ‘descendents’ from these isles worldwide.
For England – including England itself, it is 100 million.
For Scots – including Scotland, it is something like 40 or 50 million.
In the UK, we have a ratio of 13 Englishmen to 1 Scotsman, yet worldwide, it is 2 to 1.
Just goes to show you how badly the Scots have been treated since the Act of Union. Nearly every Scot has had to emigrate to make a living. Shocking …it really is.
Luigi.
Every person who talks to me about the referendum, whether they are Nationalist or Unionist, I ALWAYS tell them to come here. That is what we have to do. Get folk to read the stuff here ….not in the daily rags, or what is on the BBC.
JLT, yep fully agree. A good starting point is to remind doubters that the BBC and MSM are very pro-union, and therefore it is sensible to check out the pro-independence side, if for no other reason, to simply obtain a balanced view. Since both sides are regularly accused of biased, surely the best approach is to check out both sides before forming an opinion. A sensible suggestion for anyone really interested in the truth.
Quoting JLT:
The population of Scotland back in 1911 is 4.7 million. Chances are that the 4.7 are actuallyall Scots. No one is really travelling and living in other countries like they do today.
A fair number in 1911 would be Irish, roughly 7% I think.
I completely agree with Garve Scott Lodge (Forth comment) on this. Mind-boggling as to why the Conservatives think this is a political issue that they can see any gain in raising. They must be talking to themselves and Labour then.
As for the ten year budget plan that Swinney should lay out before the electorate, if any business looks further ahead than 3-5 years, then these are only used as possible (wishful thinking) projections as to where the company wishes to aim for. Ten years is simply bonkers for any real projections. You can however say this is what we would like to aim for and this is something that the Scottish Government has done with 100% renewables by 2020.