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Wings Over Scotland

Everyone’s a loser

Posted on December 07, 2017 by

Yesterday at Holyrood the Scottish Liberal Democrats, in the name of Orkney MSP Liam McArthur, brought forward a motion of no confidence in Police Scotland, which was calmly but stingingly rebutted by Scottish Police Federation chair Calum Steele on Twitter. A debate went ahead in the chamber, of which the outcome was the below:

So the Lib Dems lost, Labour lost, the Greens lost, the Tories lost and the SNP lost. We’re glad that’s all cleared up and was a valuable use of everyone’s time, then.

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    141 to “Everyone’s a loser”

    1. skozra says:

      Unionist politicians – a waste of everyones time and money.

    2. artyhetty says:

      Britnat parties wasting time and more importantly money. An attempt at rearranging the furnitiure for no better reason than to score points. Yoons idea of of doing the day job. It’s time they started working for the people of Scotland, and fighting the corner of our most vulnerable against UKGovs disgusting so called austerity!

    3. Bruce L says:

      Mind you… if it had been WM that series of divisions would’ve taken the better part of a day.

    4. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Do all these results add-up to a vote of confidence in Chief Commissioner Cameron Miekleson?

    5. louis.b.argyll says:

      ..That’s for sure..

    6. HandandShrimp says:

      The Lib Dems seem to really hate the police, that invoice must be doing their heads in.

      I’m guessing the Tories voted with the Liberals and demonstrated that they don’t back the police either. Maybe Green phoned Ruth and said put the boot in 🙂

    7. Macart says:

      You’d think they’d take the hint by this point, but when Willie Rennie is your leader and Alistair Carmichael is your pin up …

      No, I can’t say I’d hold out much hope for the penny dropping any time soon either.

    8. Richard MacKinnon says:

      Thats Holyrood for you folks.

    9. Greannach says:

      Have the Liberals paid their policing debts yet?

    10. wull2 says:

      O/T. Has anyone got this weeks AS show ? so I can get real news.

    11. Robert Graham says:

      Eh – this outstanding invoice wullie , no nodding yer head like one of these dugs in a cars back window dosent work Wullie .

      As has been noted by other people ,The point of these people is ? how has all this hot air benefited anyone , these useless articals are there at our expense ,these talking heads if removed tonight probably wouldn’t be missed , ever .

      maybe its time for some kind of work assessment as to MSPs productivity , a cost benefit analysis its become a normal way of finding out the ones who benefit the company and those who drain money from it , substitute Country for company in this case .

    12. Arbroath1320 says:

      Well well well … the Lib Dems taking a pot shot at the police. I cam only assume the regular questioning of them by the general public about the current status of their outstanding £800,000 policing bill must really be getting to them. If this is the casev then I have a solution for them …

      PAY THE F*****G BILL!

      In fact if I remember correctly the Lib Dems had released a video about all that was wrong with Police Scotland. This was quickly and accurately shot down in flames by the Scottish Police Fedration. (I think)

      Thye time has well passed for the pathetic wee collection of nobdies to STOP thinking about themselves and start thinking about what is best for their constituents and Scotland.

    13. wull2 says:

      Thanks Nana.

    14. Andy-B says:

      This kind of petty nonsense is what happens when you have three opposition parties working for the good of a foreign government.

    15. Matt says:

      Wow. Callum Steele fairly put them in their place. I’ll be following him on Twitter. Good stuff Rev.

    16. galamcennalath says:

      Apart from being ‘no surrender no referendum Unionists’, what does the North British branch of LibDems stand for? Why are they in Holyrood? What do they contribute to the wellbeing and prosperity of our nation?

      We know what the Tories are, THE Unionists who openly put their Union before anything else. And we know that Labour are their backup team. The LibDems?

    17. heedtracker says:

      Andy-B says:
      7 December, 2017 at 1:42 pm
      This kind of petty nonsense is what happens when you have three opposition parties working for the good of a foreign government.

      And all their BBC led media. All of them fighting hard for tory rule, for the foreign gov.

      Nicola Sturgeon: “I don’t think we’ve seen a more incompetent UK government in my lifetime.” #FMQs

    18. brewsed says:

      On the Alex Salmond show, Alex Salmond says (to conservative MPs), “Go back to your constituencies and prepare – for further humilitaion”.

    19. Capella says:

      The big winner is Calum Steele of the Scottish Police Federation. His rebuttal of Liam McArthur’s nonsense accusations is a masterclass in sticking to the facts. Top policing there.

      The Lib Dems have shown themselves to be barrel scraping idiots.

    20. heedtracker says:

      Capella says:
      7 December, 2017 at 2:34 pm
      The big winner is Calum Steele of the Scottish Police Federation.

      Don’t be shy Capella. Sir Daniel certainly sticks out too, like a FidDem boil on the airse of Scottish democracy. Whatever happened to Sir Daniel anyway?

      All that’s missing here is that smirky STV dingdong asking, “are you a member of the SNP?”

      Replying to @CalumSteeleSPF @Liam4Orkney
      Budget black hole – there are many reasons the police face this “budget black hole” but without any shadow of doubt two of the biggest sit squarely with the LibDems.

      Calum Steele?
      Dec 5
      It was the LibDems who when in coalition government commenced the swinging cuts to public expenditure in the failed austerity experiment. These cuts have put almost immeasurable financial stress on all already of public service

      Calum Steele?
      Dec 5
      Before the usual “ah but it’s the Scottish Government who decide how much to spend on services in Scotland” brigade dust off their faux outrage have a look at this

      Calum Steele?
      Dec 5
      This shows the sheer level of cuts to public expenditure being visited upon Scotland as a DIRECT consequence of the political decisions of the 2011 coalition government which couldn’t have existed without the LibDems

      Calum Steele?
      Dec 5
      These cuts have also had an altogether more pernicious and corrosive impact on the most vulnerable sections of our society who are exponentially more likely to hit crisis as a consequence.

      Calum Steele?
      Dec 5
      People in crisis, despair and needing help increasingly come to police attention and increase demand for resources and interventions in the process. That’s resources that aren’t available due to austerity.

      Calum Steele?
      Dec 5
      Then of course there is the whole history of VAT. As recent events have shown VAT relief could have been delivered with the stroke of a political pen.

      Calum Steele?
      Dec 5
      When Danny Alexander was Chief Secretary to the Treasury you might have thought he would have wanted to use the LibDem kingmaker position in government deliver something on this?

      Calum Steele?
      Dec 5
      I know I did which is why I was astonished at his sustained attempts to ignore me at LibDem conference to discuss the matter and scurried our the door pretending to take a phone call as I pressed him on the subject

      Calum Steele?
      Dec 5
      Failing IT – you really have to be detached from reality if you believe police IT woes have come about as a consequence of the creation of PSoS.

      Calum Steele?
      Dec 5
      Let there be NO DOUBT – the birth of what was to be i6 started way back in the early 2000s. That was the time the former chiefs in ACPOS could only agree on the colour of the police tie

      Calum Steele?
      Dec 5
      The “failure” to deliver i6 was not a police failure but a PRIVATE SECTOR failure. The testimony to the benefits in PSoS are clearly demonstrated in the fact they had a watertight contract that recovered ALL the costs and then some

      Calum Steele?
      Dec 5
      Prior to PSoS forces had systems that were (still are) falling apart. The former Strathclyde was still using floppy discs, the national intel system was running on coal and multiple login was/is commonplace

      Calum Steele?
      Dec 5
      Extending IT to telephony. Many of the former forces were desperately needing to update telephony systems due to advances in tech. The need for fibre to enhance capacity was well known but many relied on copper which has limitations.

      Calum Steele?
      Dec 5
      PSoS has invested in that fibre and whisky no one will pretend it’s been easy – at least its being done – as an aside were it not for the VAT Danny Alexander refused to do anything about – we might have had an easier time finding the money

      Calum Steele?
      Dec 5
      Forced BTP merger – err – Smith Commission anyone – signed up to by all parties including the LibDems.

      Calum Steele?
      Dec 5
      I have the most enormous sympathies for the BTP officers and staff who feel an affection for their force but I find the Damascene conversion of those who willingly threw them into Smith to be slightly hypocritical

      Calum Steele?
      Dec 5
      Let’s face it – after realising road signs wasn’t quite going to cut it – the transfer of BTP was considered an inconsequential “give away”. I’ve had discussions with newborn political opponents who freely admit “we just never thought about it at the time”

      Calum Steele?
      Dec 5
      I’ve yet to bottom this out but it’s my understanding the Scottish Government subsidised rail operating companies currently pay circa £23M p/a to the BTPA for policing in Scotland. BTP Scotland staff costs are circa £11M – you do the maths.

      Calum Steele?
      Dec 5
      So yes by all means feel free not to be a fan of the police service of Scotland but at least be honest enough to realise that your own policies and decisions laid the foundations that necessitated its being built

    21. Fred says:

      Calum Steele brilliant, the Lib Dems had no shortage of cash for fiddling the Kirkintilloch election, why have they defaulted on the Polis Bill?

      Leslie Riddoch excellent article on Finland in the National.

    22. Capella says:

      @ heedtracker – didn’t Sir Daniel get a plum job in Shanghai in banking? Spun round the revolving door while awaiting his ermine robes. Liberal to a fault I’d say.

    23. dave Stewart says:

      What we are all forgetting is this is how the parliament was designed by WM to keep us busy, no overall magority allowed,Divide and rule, bread and games, the unionists win.

    24. jfngw says:

      BBC News Headlines – A & E waiting times rocket across the UK. Slipped in during the longer interview piece, they have dropped in Scotland (just a single sentence). Little piece for the schoolkids searching out fake news. Not fake as such but misleading enough for those who only catch the headlines.

    25. jfngw says:

      Just to add I can only imagine the staff at Plantation Quay are busily generating FOI’s to combat this positive A & E story. Or was their the A & E waiting times are under reported story earlier this week a pre-emptive strike they can return to.

    26. Andy-B says:


      NHS bosses in England are to hide data on how many people are turned away from England’s hospitals this winter.

      We all recall the shambles of last year when the Red Cross declared the English NHS a humanitarian crisis.

    27. gus1940 says:


      Re Trump’s latest episode of pouring petrol on metaphorical fires can I suggest that as a protest and to make him look foolish and isolated The International Community, or those which currently have embassies in Tel Aviv, do precisely nothing and keep their embassies where they are.

    28. manandboy says:

      O/T Look out for ‘The Outside Clinic’, an English company based in Swindon, ‘providing NHS Scotland services’.

      They say that NHS Scotland has contracted home eye tests to private companies.

      Their mail leaflet uses the ‘NHS’ label throughout.

      Looks like the English private sector moving into Scotland – and I’ve just had my eyes tested.

    29. heedtracker says:

      Here you go Legerwood. The creepiest creep out of all of this BBC splendour is a creep like Oliver, blacking out his own country, from world history, for a few bucks.

      Bought and sold for BBC gold. Scotland’s history is being rewritten though and it will probably forget creeps like Oliver, hopefully.

    30. galamcennalath says:

      This Union is just so past its use by date!

      Although written from an Irish perspective the article linked below highlights the astonishing ignorance surrounding British imperial history.

      I wonder, is there any state in the world where its population, including politicians, appears to have so little knowledge of their own history?

      It’s like the past has been airbrushed away like inconvenient cellulite on Britannia’s arse.

    31. admiral says:

      Fred says:
      7 December, 2017 at 3:07 pm
      Calum Steele brilliant, the Lib Dems had no shortage of cash for fiddling the Kirkintilloch election, why have they defaulted on the Polis Bill?

      He’s absolutely nailed it on Lib Dem hypocrisy, hasn’t he?

      Also the throwaway comment about the actual cost of BTP in Scotland against what the Scottish Government has to pay for it – in a nutshell why we should never trust Yoons about anything.

    32. Achnababan says:

      I see the good news about A&E times for Scottish hospitals compared to RUK has been dropped by BBC Scotland website – was on the site less time than the story about the man with a pony in his car….

    33. jfngw says:

      BBC News now gives totally fake report ‘waiting times increase across the UK’, don’t even bother giving reduced figures in Scotland. Only mentions Scotland being closest to targets.

      Don’t trust the BBC for factual reporting, well known on this site but how many others assume this story includes Scotland. You can guarantee if Scotland had been worse it would have been fully highlighted.

    34. gus1940 says:

      The BBC are up to their usual tricks – isn’t it funny how in the 6pm national news the Great Brexit Omnishambles seems to have been disappeared.

    35. Legerwood says:

      heedtracker @ 4.34 pm

      I noticed in the blurb that they mention in the blurb that the Celts first met the Romans in a pitched battle north of Rome. Does not mention that the Celtic tribe involved routed the Roman army and sacked Rome. Batter of Allia 390 BC.

      Having said that this is a very short abstract publicising the programme so would not expect that level of detail – or mention of Scotland specifically.

      Replied to your posts on the previous thread.

    36. Legerwood says:

      Reporting Scotland discussing A&E times now. Better than UK despite some its and buts.

    37. Nana says:


      EU source tells me a deal is “done”, but both UK and IE sources will NOT confirm this.

      EU’s Tusk to make Brexit statement early Friday

    38. Clydebuilt says:

      Yesterday on John Beatties dinner time show he had a discussion with a BBC expert on Fake News and their plans to educate young people on how to recognise Fake news. John brought up that many of radio shortbreads listeners accuse the station of being biased. The expert waffled on for a bit on the difference between Fake News And Biased News. . . . . It was waffle there is no difference. . . . .

      BBC Biased News = Fake news . . . OR. . . . .

      BBC Biased Reporting = Fake news

    39. Scott says:

      See all those barstewards who were slagging off the new bridge not one had the decency to congratulate it for not having to close to high winds.BBC did give it a small mention.

    40. Meg merrilees says:

      What a shame, Paisley lost out on the City of Culture bid – maybe they think that we will be Independent by then anyway – so they couldn’t award it to a Scottish city – just in case!!!

      Great news that the Queensferrry crossing was open all day. And no mention at FMQ’S that it was open a full 24 hours earlier than anticipated – bar stewards the lot of them.

      No mention of the Brussels march for Catalonia.

      Amazing just how much ‘news’ we aren’t getting from the nation’s broadcaster.

    41. Tam the Bam. says:

      BBC NEWS 24 reporting ‘ A draft proposal aimed at ‘breaking’ the deadlock over the Irish issue is under consideration’… no shit Sherlock…. folk would be surprised if they weren’t.

      When interviewed today,Michael Heseltine stated he thought that since the Gov is desperate to get this done..they will inevitably end up with a ‘fudged set of words designed to keep everyone happy but which will fall apart when tested under duress.’

    42. Graeme McCormick says:

      Scottish government must name Paisley as Scotland Burgh of Culture tomorrow .

    43. ScottieDog says:

      Think you have to also add a category of ‘No news’.
      Not a snippet about the brexit deception today on radio and I had a quick look on the BBC website. Nothing.
      If that had been an SNP MP/MSP they would have been branded an enemy of the state.
      Bias by omission.

      I used to think the SNP should boycott the BBC but now I believe they should go on air and call the BBC out for what it is. Some in labour did it to pretty good effect during the GE.

    44. Tam the Bam. says:

      Graeme McCormick …. 9-00pm

      Scottish Government must name Greenock as Scotland’s Burgh of Culture tomorrow.

    45. dave Stewart says:

      Wonderful news, the big empty Hangar called HMS Queen Elizabeth has been commissioned into the Royal Navy. So well organised that its aircraft will not arrive until 2020. Down to mismanagement by Cameron and Osbourne, cancelled the jumpjet version, paid the cancellation fee, ordered the convensional version, asked for catapults to be fitted to the TWO ships, couldn’t be done cheaply, you’ve got it, cancelled the order, paid the charge, reordered the jumpjet version, put to the back of the queue.
      waste of money reported on our bbc, nothing.

    46. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      It’s quite simple – wirra (Scots) are Fü€K€D unless we develope the cojones to say “enough is is enough” to everything that is going on in this “country” of ours.

      The time has come…

    47. Glamaig says:

      heard a phrase on R4 weather forecast this evening which I’ve never heard before ‘Central Britain’.

      The area they were referring to was the English Midlands.

      Also, Brexit is going well apparently. No mention of impact assessments. R4 are in la-la land. It’s worth listening to them for a laugh after becoming depressed listening to Radio Shortbread.

    48. Pacman says:

      ScottieDog says 7 December, 2017 at 9:04 pm

      I used to think the SNP should boycott the BBC but now I believe they should go on air and call the BBC out for what it is. Some in labour did it to pretty good effect during the GE.

      If the SNP were to boycott the British Broadcasting Corporation, they would use that as another stick to beat them by spinning that that SNP have something to hide by not appearing.

      However, the damage of that could be limited if the SNP made themselves more available to other new outlets like the programmes STV make, local newspapers and even make their own stuff and post it on youtube.

      If successful, it would highlight who ineffectual the British Broadcasting Corporation is.

    49. John H. says:


      On Tuesday afternoon I emailed the SNP to ask what the regulations will be regarding residency in the event of another independence referendum. I also asked if they have the power to change the residency rules and the postal voting system.

      No answer so far. If we can’t change these things then a difficult job will be made that much harder.

    50. gus1940 says:

      Re BBC

      Why don’t SNP interviewees turn things around and start to ask the Interviewer questions or even just clam up.

      It would be interesting to see what the reaction would be up to including a verbal rammy with the interview being terminated.

      It might make BBC types like Robertson, Brewer and Campbell think twice about going into their usual interruption routine when interviewing SNP reps.

    51. Just a question for all Wings many historians,

      when was the `whole` island of Ireland last a united independent country/nation ?

    52. gus1940 says:

      To start messing about with residency would be an administrative nightmare.

      However, before Indyref2 we must make Voter Registration and Postal Voting 100% watertight otherwise the Guys In The Black Hats will just rig the poll again.

    53. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      gus1940 at 9.56

      Exactly. Turn the argument around. Stop engaging the unionist arguments on unionist battlegrounds. Make them answer the questions

      Why should Scotland with huge resources remain in a union that is so economically incompetent that apparently it leaves Scotland with a huge deficit?
      Or isn’t it just that Scotland’s resources are being squandered to try to deal with the UK’s massive debt?

      300 years of a union and you say we are an economic basket case and we should just continue?

      Are you suggesting we are the only nation in the world too stupid to run our own country?

      Boot on the other foot.

    54. colin alexander says:

      The BBC gives praise for Scotland’s NHS bucking the UK trend of increased numbers waiting 4 hours plus at A&E.

      Just hope the Scottish Govt don’t try to take credit, as Shona Robison told me the Scottish Govt aren’t responsible for running the NHS in Scotland; it’s health boards.

      I believe she was patronising me, fobbing me off, because I pointed out the dishonesty of a Health Board Chief Executive in response to complaints of Human Rights abuses against a patient within his health board.

      The SNP talk big about human rights. But, don’t want to know when the human rights abuses happen under their government.

      At least she did reply. Michael Matheson’s ( Justice Secretary) civil servants refused my request for a personal reply from the Justice Secretary.

      His civil servants fobbed me off when I complained at the lack of justice under the SNP Scottish Govt and the complete waste of time and money that is the SPSO ombudsman, due to the SPSO bias and incompetence.

      My contempt for the SNP is based on the total contempt the Scottish Government has shown about the allegations of human rights abuses under their SNP Scottish Government.

    55. Fred says:

      So Trump puts the lives of US embassy staff in Israel at severe risk for a half-witted gesture & half-witted May supports Rahoy in Catalonia.

    56. heedtracker says:

      His civil servants fobbed me off when I complained at the lack of justice under the SNP Scottish Govt and the complete waste of time and money that is the SPSO ombudsman, due to the SPSO bias and incompetence.”

      What was your complaint to the SPSO Colin? Clearly you were complaining about something important to you, important enough for you to hold the SNP in contempt.

      But why?

    57. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      No point in engaging with Colin Alexander.

    58. mr thms says:

      Enjoy Labour’s Human Rights Act from 1998 while it lasts. The Tories want to abolish it, and replace it with a British Bill of Rights after the Brexit deal has been agreed.

    59. Derek Henry says:

      It’s quite simple the way to get independence is to destroy the Bank Of England in full view of the public.

      It is not as dfficult as it sounds. All you need is a MP on the committe that attacks Carney under oath. I’m sure there will be amany from the SNP who would like to do that.

      I think they would relish the idea to destroy the Bank of England in full view of everybody on TV.

      And it would go something like this…..

      SNP minister

      Isn’t it true, Mr. Carney, that last year’s budget deficit of £X billion ADDED exactly that amount to the financial assets — the savings — of the nongovernment sectors of the economy?

      Not £297 billion or £299 billion, but exactly £X billion, correct? Or these two gentlemen from the Budget Office sitting here with me will have to work late to find their arithmetic mistake.

      Tory Minister

      Excuse me, but — before the chairman answers — let me get this straight. Are you suggesting that government deficits ADD to savings? Haven’t we been hearing for years that they take away from savings?

      SNP Minister

      Yes, you heard the question correctly. And these gentlemen from the CBO are here to substantiate this testimony as a matter of accounting, not of theory.

      Tory Minister

      And just what do you mean by “non-government” savings?

      SNP Minister

      Just that, financial savings by every individual and entity that is not part of the UK government. That includes households, businesses, residents and nonresidents, as well as foreign corporations and foreign central banks — all of which are casually called “the private sector.”

      I am asking the Mr Carney to confirm that last year’s £X billion deficit added a total of £X billion in net financial assets — financial savings — to the private sector.

      And these are the gentlemen who do the accounting, who make sure that the total savings that the deficit added to the non-government sectors equals that £X billion in government deficit spending.

      Can Mr Carney answer the question now?

      Mr Carney ( under oath)

      Yes that is true.

      SNP Minister

      Thank you Mr Carney. And, likewise, Mr. Chairman, did not the government budget surpluses of 1997-2000 SUBTRACT exactly that much from what I call (if you’ll permit me) the “private savings” of the non government sector and their financial assets?

      Mr Carney ( under oath)

      yes, that is correct.

      SNP Minister

      Thank you, Mr. Carney.

      So we have confirmed — have we not? — that surpluses take away from savings, and deficits add to savings, to the penny?

      Mr Carney ( under oath)


      SNP Minister

      Now, Mr. Carney, tell me: Is it not true that, if one were to pay his taxes with actual cash at the Bank Of England, the Bank Of England would give that person a receipt that says the taxes have been paid and then take the cash and toss it into a shredder?

      Mr Carney ( under oath)

      Yes, that’s our current policy. In the past, cash received that way was incinerated.

      SNP Minister

      Most interesting!

      Therefore, if we levied additional taxes — perhaps as an attempt to “save our NHS” and those taxes were paid in cash, the bills would be shredded?

      Mr Carney ( under oath)

      Yes, that is operationally correct.

      SNP Minister

      Well then . . . clearly, the government isn’t collecting taxes in cash in order to actually use that cash to pay for anything, or it wouldn’t destroy it?

      Mr Carney ( under oath)

      Yes, that is correct.

      SNP Minister

      Now, if taxes are paid by cheque, does the government actually “get” anything? I assume a gold coin doesn’t jump out of the Bank Of England’s computer, or anything like that.


      In fact, if I pay by cheque, isn’t it true that all the Bank Of England does is reduce the balance of my bank at the Bank of England, and, in turn, my own bank reduces my balance?

      Mr Carney ( under oath)

      Yes, that is exactly what happens.

      SNP Minister

      Therefore, when I pay my taxes by cheque, a figure on my bank statement gets changed (i.e., reduced). But, again, it seems that the government isn’t actually “getting anything” to spend?

      Mr Carney ( under oath)

      That is correct. However, we “account” for the payment with a credit to the UK Treasury’s account. And, by law, the Treasury can’t spend without having money in its account.

      SNP Minister

      Understood. Thank you.

      Now, when you specify “by law,” are you saying there’s nothing, operationally, to stop the UK Treasury from spending? That you could physically “clear” any cheque the Treasury writes?

      In other words, what keeps the Treasury from spending more than the balance in its account at the Bank Of England. It is not an operational constraint but, rather, what I would call a constraint “self imposed” by government statute.

      Mr Carney ( under oath)

      Very true that is correct.

      SNP Minister

      Is it fair to say, then, that government spending is not inherently revenue-constrained? And that any such constraints on government spending are necessarily self-imposed?

      Or, to put it more simply: Treasury cheques don’t bounce, even with no money in the Treasury’s account at the Bank Of England, as long as the Bank Of England DECIDES to clear the cheques?

      Mr Carney ( under oath)

      You are correct again.

      SNP Minister

      So a Social Security cheque or a NHS Cheque won’t ever bounce, regardless of trust fund balances, if the Bank Of England DECIDES to clear the cheque?

      Mr Carney ( under oath)

      Yes. There is no operational danger of Social Security or NHS cheques not clearing if parliament mandates that the cheques clear.

      SNP Minister

      Even with no money in the Social Security or NHS Trust Funds?

      Mr Carney ( under oath)

      Correct, even with no money in those Trust Funds.

      Tory Minister

      So what is the risk of these trust fund running out?

      SNP Minister

      Mr. Carney, isn’t it about inflation, not solvency? I offer this quote from former FED Chairman Greenspan in response to Congressman Paul Ryan:


      Do you believe that personal retirement accounts can help us achieve solvency for the system and make those future retiree benefits more secure?


      Well, I wouldn’t say that the pay-as-you-go benefits are insecure, in the sense that there’s nothing to prevent the federal government from creating as much money as it wants and paying it to somebody. The question is, how do you set up a system which assures that the real assets are created which those benefits are employed to purchase.

      There is a you tube video of this exchange.

      Mr Carney ( under oath)

      Yes, Mr Greenspan is correct and there is no solvency issue with these trust funds.

      SNP Minister

      So collecting taxes is about controlling inflation? As we just showed, the government shreds the currency when taxes are paid in cash, and paying by check doesn’t give the government anything that is actually operationally spent; so it must be about inflation?

      Mr Carney ( under oath)

      Yes, that’s how it works

      SNP Minister

      Thank you. And, just to clarify, when someone gets a Social Security payment, all the government does is increase the figure in that person’s bank account, either directly (when direct deposit is utilised) or when the recipient deposits the cheque?

      Mr Carney ( under oath)

      That is true

      SNP Minister

      So the government doesn’t lose anything “real” when it spends?

      Mr Carney ( under oath)


      SNP Minister

      Would you agree that this is much like what happens when you go bowling?

      When you knock down 5 pins and your score changes from 20 to 25, no one questions where the bowling alley gets the points. Or, when you score a goal and the scoreboard changes from 0 points to 1 points, no one questions where those points come from.

      Mr Carney ( under oath)

      Today’s monetary system is very much akin to score keeping.

      SNP Minister

      So, just as no one would demand that a bowling alley or football stadium keep 100,000 points in reserve in case a lot of people came in to bowl or watch a match, it serves no operational purpose for the government to keep its £’s in reserves?

      Mr Carney ( under oath)

      Yes, I would agree with that

      SNP Minister

      Now let’s move on to inflation . . . which is the real danger of overspending — not solvency, default, or bankruptcy. Is that correct?

      Mr Carney ( under oath)


      SNP Minister

      So, let’s take Social Security again. Might it be more useful to “score” the future of Social Security by the inflation it might create, rather than by the size of the trust fund or by the size of a future deficit it might create?

      Mr Carney ( under oath)

      That makes perfect sense

      SNP Minister

      Is the same true for NHS proposals or indeed any public spending?

      Mr Carney ( under oath)

      Of course

      SNP Minister

      So, again, Mr. Carney, collecting taxes functions to reduce inflation, not raise revenue per se? That there is no chance of these public trust funds or any public spending suffering from solvency issues, default, or bankruptcy.

      Mr Carney ( under oath)


      SNP Minister

      Very interesting, because we’ve been led to believe that inflation is a “monetary phenomena” — whatever that means — and therefore it is “monetary policy” that matters for inflation; isn’t that why you increase interest rates and now today you’re saying that fiscal policy is also a contributing factor?

      Mr Carney ( Under Oath)

      Yes. Technically, both contribute to inflation.

      SNP Minister

      So on the fiscal side taxes control inflation and fund nothing.

      Mr Carney ( under oath)


      SNP Minister

      Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for your enlightening testimony. I now declare fiscal conservatism dead. Many people in the House of Commons are going to be in big trouble for the lies they have told for the last 40 years. the general public are not going to be happy about your testimony today.

    60. Fireproofjim says:

      Scott Finlayson
      Ireland has never been a united independent country.
      If you go back to Medieval times there were several small kingdoms. (Ulster under the O’Neils, was the most powerful).
      There were also many sub-kings who were in effect vassals of the four or five High Kings.
      In the Twelfth century, Edward 1st invaded and occupied Ireland by the usual divide and rule method, and for 700years England ruled Ireland, with English aristocrats owning huge estates and treating the Irish as little better than slaves.
      However the Irish never forgot their Celtic heritage and never considered themselves British.

    61. Terence callachan says:

      The reason this farce can take place is the kind of Parliament that Scotland was given by Westminster.
      A parliament that uses the dhondt method of electing MP,s.
      It’s a different method to that used in Westminster and that’s because Westminster wants the Scottish parliament to fail.
      Only half of the MP,s in holyrood are voted for by the people of Scotland.
      The other half are chosen by the leaders of each political party and what’s more incredible is that the fewer votes a party gets from the people of Scotland the more MPs they get via the leader of their party !!
      That’s why there are so many labour and Tory MPs in the Scottish parliament that we have never ever heard of ?
      Most of them don’t really live in Scotland and some are not even Scottish.
      They live in England and have done so all their lives.
      If holyrood had the same voting rules as Westminster 95% of MPs would be SNP, Westminster know this and that’s why they colluded with labour to hinder the Scottish parliaments democracy with dhondt.

    62. crazycat says:

      @ Fireproofjim

      Wee nit-pick :
      Ireland was invaded in the 12th Century (1167 onwards) during the reign in England of Henry II Plantagent.

      Edward I (Henry’s great-grandson) ruled England from 1272 to 1307.

    63. Rock says:

      As usual, the “independence supporting” The Greens voted against the minority SNP government.

      Wonder what the “independence supporting” The National will have to say about it.

    64. Robert Peffers says:

      @gus1940 says: 7 December, 2017 at 9:56 pm:

      “Why don’t SNP interviewees turn things around and start to ask the Interviewer questions or even just clam up.”

      Simple, Gus1940, it just wouldn’t work.

      However, I’ll tell you something that would work.

      How about the SNP representatives interrupting the BBC presenters?

      Then, when, “The Presenter”, protests the SNP, “Guest”, simple states the obvious, “Are you not, ‘The Presenter’, and am I not the guest invited to state the Scottish Government’s case”?

      Please allow me to do so.

      Then without allowing, “The Presenter”, to continue, say, “Now that the presenter has presented me I’ll give you my views on the subject”, and then continue to just do so while ignoring the presenter.

      If the presenter than attempts to interrupt the SNP Rep can say, “Ah! So you are not actually a presenter after all but an interrogator and interrupter whose job it is to prevent me from getting a word in edgewise”.

      The probable result would be that the SNP would be no worse of by not being invited to give their views ever again. They still wouldn’t get a chance to air their views but at least the public would better see the BBC bias.

    65. colin alexander says:


      I’m not able to give specific details, especially as I am NOT the person who suffered the alleged abuses.

      I’m not claiming it was the SNP or Scottish Govt who committed the alleged abuses but, they don’t want to know when told of them.

      Proof was given to the SPSO that the public body lied to them – quoting the public body’s own records. The SPSO went out of their way to praise up the public body when upholding one of the complaints against them. The SPSO refused to retract the praise for the Public body despite the praise being based on the public body’s deliberate lies about actions that would harm the human rights of the complainant.

      Whatever public bodies assert are “facts” in the eyes of the SPSO, even if you are able to prove with documentary proof that the public body lied etc.

      Alex Neil IS an SNP MSP and he is on record condemning the SPSO.

      Dennis Canavan was involved with which is also highly critical of the SPSO and campaigns for a real public services watchdog, instead of the Public Bodies lapdog which is the SPSO and he was a YES leader in 2014.

      So, it’s not an anti-indy comment.

      The Scottish Govt know the current system is unfit for purpose and rotten to the core, but turn a deaf ear and blind eye to the complaints.

      And for the record: it was Labour who set up the current rotten system, not the SNP.

    66. Robert Peffers says:

      That’s a good question.

      I would opine it was before the Norman Conquest of Ireland.

      This from Wikipedia:-

      The Norman invasion of Ireland took place in stages during the late 12th century, at a time when Gaelic Ireland was made up of several kingdoms, with a High King claiming lordship over all.

      In May 1169, Cambro-Norman mercenaries landed in Ireland at the request of Diarmait Mac Murchada.

      “The initial Norman invasion force comprised just 90 mounted knights and sergeants, supported by around 300 Welsh archers. It was led by warrior-knight Robert FitzStephen – a battle-scarred veteran of Henry II’s Welsh wars. He was instrumental in securing Norman control of Wexford in 1169, the invaders’ first major gain.”

    67. heedtracker says:

      And for the record: it was Labour who set up the current rotten system, not the SNP.

      So if the SPSO is toothless, are there alternatives?

      Usually complaints about any public and private sector problems are investigated. While you may not feel that your complaint has been followed through, it will almost certainly have an impact on who or whatever caused your complaint.

      Unless your complaint resulted in a successful legal action, its never going to be to your satisfaction, probably.

      Fundamentally though, should your view that the SPSO is not an effective set up really influence your indy ref2 vote Colin?

      Some people in Scotland today seem to be caught in the mindset you have, that Scotland is some kind of permanent stasis within this farce union and that nothing ever changes etc.

      Who fought hardest against Scottish indy 2014 Colin?

      Who fights hardest against Scottish indy every hour of every Scottish day?

      They’re not called Conservatives for nothing.

    68. Dr Jim says:

      They’ll try anything on

      Now we’ve got the SNP ate my Hamster

      Aye next week Nicola Sturgeon was aware of Jimmy Savile and kept it all a big secret coz she’s an agent of the devil (FACT)

    69. Davie Oga says:

      Terence callachan says:
      7 December, 2017 at 11:22 pm
      The reason this farce can take place is the kind of Parliament that Scotland was given by Westminster.

      This is the sort of small minded, petty, parochial nationalism that turns people away independence. I was watching a documentary about the rise of the NDSP in 1930’s Germany and it dawned on me that there were no English residents sitting in the Reichstag when Hitler consolidated his power.The same was true during the Rwandan civil war, and during the break up of the former Yugoslavia. It may prove uncomfortable to accept, but history conclusively demonstrates that without having English people with no connection or allegiance to a country passing legislation, and trying to synthesize laws with Westminster for the economic benefit of England, a country runs the real risk of instigating genocidal wars of agression. A Scottish parliament, voted for by Scottish citizens, with members who are full time residents of Scotland could prove very dangerous indeed. What’s to stop a maniacal strongman casting his eyes towards the Faeros and fulfilling our deep seated need for àite beò in the north west?

    70. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      It’s very significant, and says much about the toxic nature of the political opposition in Scotland these days, that neutral representatives of public bodies are now being obliged to issue fact-checking rebuttals.

      I thought this one from Calum Steele hit the mark again and again. Particularly telling for me was his comment on Danny Alexander’s cowardly ducking-out of an attempted discussion of the VAT charging of the police during his watch.

      (Yes, two of the most satisfactory moments on election night in 2015 were the Orange Tory/Red Tory “Alexander Brothers” getting their well-deserved comeuppances.)

    71. Dr Jim says:

      Now we need English people to keep us right
      What no Pakistanis or Syrians or Chinese or Polish or …..

      Just English, Aye very good

    72. colin alexander says:


      If there is an another indyref I would vote Yes to independence and it would be my first choice in a multiple choice referendum.

      My support for indy is not the issue.

      Talking of legal action: The Scottish Govt is currently looking into reforming the current medical negligence laws, with a no-fault system, instead of the current adversial court cases, where medical negligence is probably the hardest civil case to prove and certainly prolongs the suffering and stress.

      The Faculty of Advocates had published their response to the proposed scheme:

    73. Meg merrilees says:

      Electoral Boundary changes

      This link is really important:

      We have until 11.59 on Monday 11th December to register our comments about the proposed changes which will see Scotland lose 6 MP’s.

      Just enter your postcode and see if you are affected by the proposed changes.

      Of course, we may well be an Independent country by then but just in case, it’s as well to make your case.

    74. heedtracker says:

      Meg merrilees says:
      8 December, 2017 at 1:17 am
      Electoral Boundary changes

      Thanks very much! But why are they even bothering to ask for electors comments about the proposed changes if,

      What do you need to know?

      The number of UK Parliament constituencies in Scotland must reduce from 59 to 53.

      By law, every constituency we propose must contain between 71,031 and 78,507 electors, unless its area is greater than 12,000 square kilometres and a constituency with between 71,031 and 78,507 electors is not reasonably possible.”

      And as they scrap constituencies in Scotland, they boost up the Lords, with, well no one actually knows how many there are today, wiki doesn’t,

      “Currently, there are about 800 members who are eligible to take part in the work of the House of Lords. The majority are life peers.”

    75. ScottieDog says:

      @Robert Peffers
      “How about the SNP representatives interrupting the BBC presenters?

      Then, when, “The Presenter”, protests the SNP, “Guest”, simple states the obvious, “Are you not, ‘The Presenter’, and am I not the guest invited to state the Scottish Government’s case”? ”

      Couldn’t agree more. I’m not sure how much training MPs get in interview techniques but it’s probably safe to say it doesn’t take into account the bias of the interviewer.

      I would also urge counter-questioning to highlight the bias and expose the interviewer. Barry gardiner used this during the GE to good effect. E.g “why aren’t the bbc doorstepping ruth davidson about the safeguarding of fishery jobs gary?. “I read in the media how influential ruth is but she never gets cross-examined ”

      Ibterviewer: “are you saying we are biased?”
      Minister: “no I’m asking a specific question”


    76. Ken500 says:

      The SNP/Independence voters get one vote.The opposition get 5 votes to vote against them. How the unionists screwed up the electoral sytem in Scotland . Bring back FPTP. One person one vote would get rid of most of them. Useless bastards along with the corrupt Press.

      Every opposition MP costs £Billion+ while the fecking unionists feck Scotland up. Some auld vacant coupons ignoramouses hold Scotland back and they lived through Thatcher. What shower. Not fit for public office.

      Non voters get unionists shambles.

      If only more people cared about politics, as some people care about football. Ripping off the punters. No wonder the terraces are empty.

      Why would you want to destroy the BoE? Unless for being a useless puppet of the Westminster criminals. Falsifying Libor etc. Scotland owns 1/12 of it. Just set up a Central bank in Scotland. The EU supported financially many Independence movements when the people voted for it. German unification etc. ECB support.

    77. Ken500 says:

      Start a battle with the Press? Just ignore it, boycott it. Or take it over. There are alternatives. That is being done. No one believes it anyway. Turn over or switch off.

      The stinking, sinking tabloids not even reporting the shambles they have created.

    78. Nana says:


      Scotland chosen (with País Vasco) to co-ordinate EU funded network of Marine Energy projects.

      PeteWishart: We have concluded our ‘My Scottish Affairs’ inquiry. Here’s what you told us the committee should look at.

    79. thomas says:

      @ fireproofjim

      “ireland has never been a united independent country”

      Jim , this isnae any sort of criticism , but that isnt true pal.

      Many pro british historians would have you believe this , and they spout similar stuff regarding scotland and wales with the theme being we were all uncivilised barbarians before being civilised by the british empire , you see it all through our history.

      You musnt look on medieval ireland from a twenty first century perspective.

      It was never governed in the modern fashion by a central government , but that doesnt mean it wasnt a country. Simply the governance of the “celts” was of loose regions or small kingdoms united under a high king.

      So i would say Ireland was last a united country just prior to the original norman invasion in the 12th century.

      Many pre feudal countries across europe operated in a similar fashion , and the creeping feudalism introduced by the normans brought in the idea of the maximum amount of land under the control of one individual at the top of the feudal pyramid.

      This eventually developed into what we have now , a modern central government controlling the whole country unlike the old celtic system of the semi communist gaels where the power was in the hands of the people.

      The exact same thing to a lesser degree happened in scotland at this time under the davidian revolution , king david wanted scotland to abandon the old celtic style of governance and loose regions under elected chiefs and kings for the norman style of governance where all scotland belonged to him.

      Scotland wouldnt have it at first with massive uprisings against him in areas like galloway and moray , which led to the fedalising of the south and east of our country whilst the north and west at first refused to change.

      This was the beginning of the highland lowland cultural divide in scotland.

    80. K1 says:

      Put on wrong Thread:

      From ‘Joint report from the negotiators of the European Union and the United Kingdom Government on progress during phase 1 of negotiations under Article 50 TEU on the United Kingdom’s orderly withdrawal from the European Union.’

      Section Heading: Ireland and Northern Ireland


      ‘…In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation, the all- island economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement.’

      Am I understanding this correctly? Is NI being given special status to remain part of the sm and cu whilst the rest of the ‘UK’ leaves the the Eu sm and cu?

      Full Transcript Here, get reading folks..Citizens Rights are all there too…as well as other stuff, just started reading.

    81. Nana says:

      The text of the speech is in the first link I posted at 7.30am

      Confirmed! #Brexit deal brokered between May and EU – no hard border for Ireland

    82. K1 says:

      Here’s that sentence embedded in surrounding context for a clearer idea of what they are stating:

      48. The United Kingdom remains committed to protecting and supporting continued North-South and East-West cooperation across the full range of political, economic, security, societal and agricultural contexts and frameworks of cooperation, including the continued operation of the North-South implementation bodies.

      49. The United Kingdom remains committed to protecting North-South cooperation and to its guarantee of avoiding a hard border. Any future arrangements must be compatible with these overarching requirements. The United Kingdom’s intention is to achieve these objectives through the overall EU-UK relationship. Should this not be possible, the United Kingdom will propose specific solutions to address the unique circumstances of the island of Ireland. In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation, the all- island economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement.

      50. In the absence of agreed solutions, as set out in the previous paragraph, the United Kingdom will ensure that no new regulatory barriers develop between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom, unless, consistent with the 1998 Agreement, the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly agree that distinct arrangements are appropriate for Northern Ireland. In all circumstances, the United Kingdom will continue to ensure the same unfettered access for Northern Ireland’s businesses to the whole of the United Kingdom internal market.

      51. Both Parties will establish mechanisms to ensure the implementation and oversight of any specific arrangement to safeguard the integrity of the EU Internal Market and the Customs Union.

      52. Both Parties acknowledge that the 1998 Agreement recognises the birth right of all the people of Northern Ireland to choose to be Irish or British or both and be accepted as such. The people of Northern Ireland who are Irish citizens will continue to enjoy rights as EU citizens, including where they reside in Northern Ireland. Both Parties therefore agree that the Withdrawal Agreement should respect and be without prejudice to the rights, opportunities and identity that come with European Union citizenship for such people and, in the next phase of negotiations, will examine arrangements required to give effect to the ongoing exercise of, and access to, their EU rights, opportunities and benefits.

      53. The 1998 Agreement also includes important provisions on Rights, Safeguards and Equality of Opportunity for which EU law and practice has provided a supporting framework in Northern Ireland and across the island of Ireland. The United Kingdom commits to ensuring that no diminution of rights is caused by its departure from the European Union, including in the area of protection against forms of discrimination enshrined in EU law. The United Kingdom commits to facilitating the related work of the institutions and bodies, established by the 1998 Agreement, in upholding human rights and equality standards.

      The more I read it, the less sense it is making to me. It’s like there isn’t a solution just lots of acknowledgement that a solution is needed at some point?

    83. Ken500 says:

      Like football. Who wants the poisoned chalice? Not Corbyn voting the with the Tories. What a plonker. The Tories could be gone. They haven’t got a clue.

    84. K1 says:

      Sorry Nana, had posted that lot on previous thread before knowing you’d provided the link to it. 🙁

    85. Snode1965 says:

      So it has been announced that an agreement on the Irish border has been negotiated.
      The bbc are broadcasting that the UK are leaving the single market and custom union and the Constitutional integration of UK will remain intact, but the border will stay open.
      How on earth have they squared that issue is unknown as no details yet released.

    86. One_Scot says:

      K1, to be honest the whole thing sounds like a fudge to me along the lines of ‘we’ll deal with all this crapola later’.

    87. K1 says:

      Can’t believe that paragraph I pulled out is the very one they are quoting on RT, this is a ‘special’ deal for NI. It literally jumps out the page, so it is significant: They get to stay in the EU CU and SM and we, in Scotland who also voted remain get pulled out with the rest of the UK and get plunged into economic armageddon wi those Brexit wankers down south?

      Are we fkn kidding with this shit?

      How under any reasonable rational sane manner are they going to sell this as ‘not’ a special deal? Cause that is exactly what the whole contorted spin is going to be about for the foreseeable. I hope the Scottish Government is all over this.

      We are out of this so called union if this is what they are prepared to do to keep the DUP on board. They can gtf with this! Oh…and do any of us think London won’t be banging on her door now too?

      Clusterfuck at def con 10 wi this pish. Independence Here We Come!

    88. Tinto Chiel says:

      The “Police Scotland in Crisis” line was punted enthusiastically this morning by Sarah Smith (has her mummy delivered her maiden speech in the Lords yet?) on Pravdasound4’s Today programme.

      I thought Susan Deacon (despite her BLiS______d background) performed surprisingly well and gave clear and articulate answers to Sarah’s rather desperate questions, never once sounding defensive or mealy-mouthed.

      Meanwhile,in other news: Brexit’s fine, Schroedinger’s Border is in place.


    89. K1 says:

      All the details are in the link, you can read it for yourself.

      Not yet ratified, but the gist of it all is in the link that Nana and myself posted. As well as quoted text from the arrangements.

    90. Nana says:

      @K1 I like how you posted the text. Seems to me there’s no argument left against Scottish indy.

      Tusk on Sky news

    91. K1 says:

      Aye One_Scot, but when it becomes ratified…it’s no longer a fudge, it’s the law, they get to stay in the EU to all intents and purposes…business, farming, human rights, they don’t get subjected to the power grab and their ‘devolution’ stays intact as is. Ours is under imminent and deadly threat with Brexit. If they ratify, we are through the looking glass.

      We need to get the campaign started immediately. Because quite simply if they don’t offer Scotland a similar deal, and they won’t, they are preparing for our departure, ergo loss of DWP and all manner of scorched earth approaches toward Scotland right now. It’s time to leave this rotten cesspit of a union.

    92. Breeks says:

      I think that’s the result we want in NI. No Border, so the troubles don’t kick off again, DUP fizzin and looking at a United Ireland on the horizon, and for Scotland, we have indisputable evidence that there is a credible opportunity for Scotland to remain in the Single market and Customs Union, but that Westminster can’t be bothered to address it and is actually Westminster blocking it, not the EU.

      The big question now is whether this is the tipping point for IndyRef and defence of our sovereignty, or whether Scotland gets out the metal detectors to go looking for more worthless compromises.

    93. K1 says:

      From Guradina Live, just seconds ago:

      As previously noted, Scotland’s first minister Nicola Sturgeon has already responded to the announcement on Twitter, cautioning that “things now get really tough” and repeating her warning that “any special arrangements for Northern Ireland must be available to other UK nations”.

      At first minister’s questions yesterday, Sturgeon blasted Theresa May’s government as “dissembling, mendacious and totally, totally incompetent” and challenged Jeremy Corbyn to “get his act together” to champion a Commons majority in favour of staying within the single market and the customs union.

      Earlier in the week, she argued that Scotland would a “doubly disadvantaged” by special status for Northern Ireland and hinted that such a scenario would strengthen the case for independence.


    94. K1 says:

      Meanwhile DUP are rejoicing…Foster lying through her teeth saying they are still part of the UK. Placing all the emphasis on not being out of the UK market? WTF is wrong wi these people, it’s like ‘oh look a squirrel’. A dead squirrel.

    95. PacMan says:

      Re: the debate about SNP politicians and British Broadcasting Corporation.

      The ‘professional muggings’ that SNP politicians receive from British Broadcasting Corporation interviewers is the same as the treatment received by comedians from hecklers in the crowd they are performing to.

      If a comedian can’t deal with hecklers then they lose the crowd and die on the stage. If they can’t shut down the hecklers then they shouldn’t be on stage.

      The same goes for politicians. The SNP politicians must surely have not be shielded from hecklers and protesters throughout their normal campaigning so if they can do then they can easily handle these interviewers who are like rabbits caught in the headlights when somebody does challenge them and forced to deviate from their edited script.

    96. Macart says:


      Tick tock.

      Simple questions for Ms May. If NI does still retain access to SM and CU, why the exceptional status and why no one else? If they merely have to adhere to EU law and regulation without access to SM and CU how does that roll out across rUK?

      Either way, an exceptional status has been granted and the populations of rUK deserve, indeed are entitled, to some answers. Right now the hardline Brexiteers within cabinet and party will be foaming at the mooth over that fudge, but then they really don’t give a shit about other people’s politics or lives anyway. The remainers either in party or throughout commons will however, be deeply confused and/or relieved.

      You can see which way Ms May must go to square the circle and the other way both the year long media narrative and Brexit lobby have been pushing for it to go.

      It’s a pickle for them Nana. 🙂

    97. PacMan says:

      From what I can gather from reading posts here that Northern Ireland has a special deal which effectively keeps them in the EU single market.

      Ruth Davidson said a few days ago that no part of the UK should get left behind as every part of the UK should be treated equally. I look forward to whole hearted support she will give to Nicola Sturgeon in order to get the same deal for Scotland, Wales and England.

    98. Nana says:

      Good morning Macart

      Aye exceptional status for some but not others is not going to stick.

      I’m following a few folk better placed to know what is what

    99. PictAtRandom says:

      Fair to say that the European negotiations have gone back into the “Ignorance is bliss” comfort zone?

    100. Macart says:


      Yep! They see the same big ol’ elephant we do. 🙂

    101. Breeks says:

      Frustrating quote from Nicola.

      “An aside – a UK government that is able to say that come what may, it will avoid hard borders with Ireland/NI after Brexit can never again tell Scotland that independence would mean a hard border between Scotland and rUK”.

      I don’t agree Nicola.

      NI doesn’t need a Border because NI is now tied to EU convergence criteria. NI will be kept buoyant by the Republic. They are safe from Brexit.

      An Indy Scotland WOULD need a hard Border because we would be tied to EU convergence criteria while England was in a powered tailspin falling away from EU convergence. Scotland hasn’t the buoyancy to float itself and keep English standards raised, but English sub-EU standard trade flooding into Scotland would strain Scotland’s convergence criteria. Scotland would actually WANT a hard Border to stop all the supermarkets stacking our shelves with GM foodstuffs, growth hormones in meat, and all the other pernicious erosions of Scotland’s international reputation.

      The EU will demand border controls if Scotland is in Europe but England is not, but nevermind what Europe wants, Scotland will need a Border just to protect our own interests from the collapse of standards and deregulation that looms on the horizon for Brexited England.

      England’s economy is going to tank when it cannot Trade with Europe as a direct consequence of deregulation. Barnier has literally said as much. The EU will not entertain divergence away from the 4 Freedoms, nor will it agree any Trade Deal without having legislative control over the terms, yet escaping the 4 Freedoms and European Court jurisdiction are two great pillars of Brexiteer philosophy. I promise you, the European philosophy will prevail. England, or god help us the UK, will observe EU trading criteria, or there WILL NOT be any trade agreement.

      Now is not the time to strengthen links with England. Now is the time to pick our side and bind Scotland to the European ideals and resist Westminster’s deregulation and race to the bottom. Scotland is not moving from the position we hold today. Brexit is an English initiative and England’s folly.

    102. K1 says:

      And yet not one report from the mainstream rags or BBC on this obvious elephant. Can they just not interpret information correctly? I mean Nicola got it straight away, it’s like witnessing a collective ‘look the other way’ moment. Incredible, I know I should be immune by now but there is still this naive part of me that can’t quite realise they are a bunch of paid up shills wi barely a shared braincell between them all. It’s all spin, all of it. Lies and avoidance.

    103. K1 says:

      Ian Dunt’s thread is more developed and nuanced too. with contributions from others who see what we see:

    104. galamcennalath says:

      Guardian claiming … “everyone born in N Ireland will retain EU citizenship”… and what about Scotland where the majority voted for exactly that?

      So, how do I apply to keep my EU citizenship?

    105. K1 says:

      Rev’s feed right now, he’s retweeting someone who sees it too…those paragraphs above are been correctly analysed, and expanded upon. Worth a looksee.

    106. Auld Rock says:

      Could the real hate be that they (Fib/Dem/Labour/Tory) Cooncillors cannae get their D/D, Speeding,etc tickets to magically vanish by applying pressure on the Old Police Committees????

    107. K1 says:

      Kirsty Hughes has just done a wee thread on the Brexit deal and Scotland:

    108. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill says: 7 December, 2017 at 10:50 pm:

      “No point in engaging with Colin Alexander.”

      I’ll second that.

      On the one hand he claims the SNP SG cannot claim credit for the A&E figures as it is the Health Boards that run the Hospitals. Yet it is, in his eyes, all the SNP SG’s fault that no one listened to his complaint.

      Colin has always been totally illogical and blinded by his own personal hate of all things SNP.

    109. manandboy says:

      OT. At this point it appears that Theresa May will be in post for the forseeable future to create ‘stability’and ‘continuity’ for the ongoing Brexit negotiations.
      My guess is that an agreement for this has been in place for some time with the full assent of Jeremy Corbyn and the EU.

    110. Robert Peffers says:

      @Davie Oga says: 8 December, 2017 at 12:53 am:

      ” … This is the sort of small minded, petty, parochial nationalism that turns people away independence.”

      This must be the most raving loony post I’ve read in a very long time.

    111. Marcia says:

      Robert Peffers @ 9.23

      There is a NHS long waiting time to deal with the said Mr Alexander’s irrational hatred on the SNP. The therapist would be sectioned after a while.

    112. Legerwood says:

      PacMan says:
      8 December, 2017 at 8:25 am
      “”From what I can gather from reading posts here that Northern Ireland has a special deal which effectively keeps them in the EU single market.

      Ruth Davidson said a few days ago that no part of the UK should get left behind as every part of the UK should be treated equally. I look forward to whole hearted support she will give to Nicola Sturgeon in order to get the same deal for Scotland, Wales and England.””

      Remember David Davies stood up in Parliament this week and said that any deal for NI would apply across the UK.

      But then he has stood up in Parliament before and said things that were not true so probably not telling the truth this time either.

    113. TheItalianJob says:

      CA is the type who says “Scotland in now in real trouble now what with the price of oil crashing”.

      This same notion I have been getting from many colleagues at work to which I reply “Oh that’s not in the least bit accuratel It’s the UK that’s in trouble as they colllect all oil and gas revenues.” All Scotland gets is a “grant” from the UK based on the Barnett formula.

      Ignorance of these fools never cease to amaze me.

    114. @thomas

      pre Norman French invasion of Ireland,

      how do you see the (Danish) Viking legacy in Ireland,

      think they were there nearly 400 years prior to Norman French.

    115. Pacman says:

      Legerwood says: 8 December, 2017 at 9:55 am

      Remember David Davies stood up in Parliament this week and said that any deal for NI would apply across the UK.

      But then he has stood up in Parliament before and said things that were not true so probably not telling the truth this time either.

      My interpretation of Davidson’s comment was that she didn’t want a special deal for Northern Ireland although it was spun by the usual suspects that she was intervening on behalf of Scotland’s interests.

      I was being sarcastic with my previous comment because for any normal politician that would have come back to haunt them big time. Luck for her she has a very forgiving MSM who will overlook it 🙂

    116. galamcennalath says:

      Our pet trolls …. Unionism is a cult of illogical beliefs in which evidence plays no part. To adherents, their Union is sacred. Suggesting it is past its use-by and should end is to them blasphemous. Anyone (that’s us) challenging their world view is to be fought relentlessly.

      Highlighting facts and attempting to engage in ‘debate’ with them is pointless.

      Blinkered no surrender Unionists are not the majority in Scotland. We should concentrate on voters with open minds who just need a bit more convincing.

    117. louis.b.argyll says:

      Breeks, Northern Ireland is part of England’s state, we are part of the United Kingdom. Big difference.

      What Nicola said is perfectly viable if you think it through in isolation, before just pushing your own rhetoric.

    118. Greannach says:

      Pacman @ 10:07 am

      My interpretation of Davidson’s intervention is that she wanted to make sure she was in the news but not actually taking part in a live interview which could turn awkward (unlikely with BBC/STV).

      Given that she has flipped and flopped her deeply held principles over Brexit about 7 or 8 times, she’ll flip flop over this too, unless her Orange Lodge supporters insist that she stick to something for once.

    119. cearc says:

      Of course, regulatory alignment with EU completely f**s their ‘great trade deal with US who want them to accept US regulatory rules.

      Brexit: A Negotiation Update…U.S. House of Representatives

      I was going to quote some chunks but copy/paste from it puts each word on a new line. Relevant bit is Part 3, pg. 4, para 2.

      ‘…Uk must accept US regulatory standards and diverge from those of the EU…’

      This really is worth a read. Contains gems like:

      ‘.. Trump administration appears to be pursuing a predatory policy, designed to take immediate economic advantage of the dislocations and vulnerabilities created for the UK by the Brexit process…’

    120. jfngw says:

      Anyone who remembers ‘The Prisoner’, can probably recall the positive radio station that only gave uplifting news about the place. The BBC now is exactly like this station, “Tra Daa May achieves great success at negotiations”. Lets now bother with any analysis. With of course the ‘not in Scotland’ proviso.

      It has become even more of a voice of the government than in the past, it’s their BBC should be its new slogan. Who’s driving this oneness, together slogans you often wonder.

    121. Doug Bryce says:

      Breaking news – UK to remain in single market / EU for 2 years after brexit.

      Basically they have kicked can down road and fudged it…
      However we carry on obeying EU rules / paying into budget .

      Clear admission brexit is a bad idea ?

    122. jfngw says:

      Now that May has made an arse of Davidson and done a special deal for NI what will Davidson do. Stand up for Scotland or flip again and tweet what a great achievement by the negotiating team. I know what my money is on, her first response is a bit of a give away though.

    123. galamcennalath says:

      Hard Brexiteers won’t go away. They won’t give up their campaign for ‘independence’. They don’t want regulatory alignment with the EU – by “take back control”, they mean the power to achieve regulatory divergence (and curb EU immigration).

      The closer to the EU the final outcome, the more unhappy Brexiteers will be.

      The squabbling within the Tory party will continue and UKIP will re-emerge threatening to soak up votes. For these people, it will only be over when England (primarily) is isolated and shifted further to the right.

      It will be very interesting to see how May now tries to chart a course between appeasing the far right around her, and not totally screwing up the economy!

      By all accounts the cabinet have not even discussed the type of Brexit they want, far less reached a consensus!

    124. Fred says:

      Anent Ireland being united & independent? when was the last time England was united & independent? Arguably England hit the buffers in 1066, the Anglo Danish landowners were dispossessed & replaced by foreigners & the people more or less made slaves. What came after was England in name only.

      Robert the Bruce had his brother invade Ireland & attempted to unite the people & kick the English out. Despite initial successes he came a cropper at the battle of Faughart.

    125. Breeks says:

      louis.b.argyll says:
      8 December, 2017 at 10:12 am
      Breeks, Northern Ireland is part of England’s state, we are part of the United Kingdom. Big difference.

      What Nicola said is perfectly viable if you think it through in isolation, before just pushing your own rhetoric.

      It’s not rhetoric Louis.

      Northern Ireland inside the Single Market and Customs Union will continue to trade with the Republic on broadly converging criteria. NI will conduct its economy in significantly different ways from mainland UK, but in significantly similar way to the Republic.

      That situation does not transpose onto Scotland. Scotland, if it can find a way to stay in the Single Market and Customs Union could not hope to bind England to EU convergence when England currently wants to run a mile from EU convergence, deregulate it’s economy, and embrace dodgy Trade Deals with countries like the US and anybody else who will listen. -Trade Deals with Governments which see Westminster is over a barrel, and desperate, and in no position to secure good Trade Deals.

      That would create in Scotland a situation where a supermarket in Carlisle could be selling GM produce, genetically modified beef pumped full of anti biotics and growth hormone, and packed in wrappers which adhere to altogether criteria from that of European food packaging. Just 6 miles away, the same Supermarket, with the same distribution system, would not be allowed to sell such products in Scotland, but I’ll be damned if I would trust the Supermarket to police itself. Would you?

      It’s already happening. A saltire on your Supermarket vegetables means they are not genetically modified. A butchers apron or Cross of St George means absolutely nothing and gives no such assurance.

      European standards safeguard my right to trace my food back to source, so that I can find out where the meat I am eating actually came from. That isn’t for my benefit, but if and when there is a problem or health risk identified, then the farm can be identified quickly and the problem isolated. Do you see why it matters?

      If that “problem” meat came in to Scotland undetected, was processed into a Scottish pie and exported into mainland Europe, the paper chase to source the problem would come back to Scotland, – not England, because England is not constrained by our EU regulations and physically couldn’t tell you where the meat came from.

      I am quite sure Scotland in the SM and CU could and would adhere to EU regulations with great gusto. Scotland isn’t the problem. The problem is our neighbours ditching their standards and regulations, and being able to circumvent EU standards and regulations by the simple trick of distributing them via Scotland, who could do nothing about if without some form of Border Control.

      This problem is not just confined to supermarkets, but all cross border commerce and manufacturing. The whole logic of having a Customs Union at all is undone if Scotland stays in the Customs Union but does not ensure the goods it’s trades comply. In NI, the hard border between Europe and the U.K. has not disappeared, it has simply moved itself into the Irish Sea.

      If Scotland is to remain in the SM and CU but have no border control, the only way it would work would be for Scotland to nominally remain in the SM and CU, but become a buffer state where both UK and EU regulations apply, but that would not work because it would be a logistical nightmare, and a pointless exercise because the EU would have to insist on a hard Border between Scotland and the EU to protect itself for the very same reasons I describe above.

      That isn’t rhetoric or even political. That’s simple observation of the practicality. Scotland has a land border with England. That changes the required solution. The Northern Irish cap does not fit Scotland’s head.

      My reference about Nicola is just an observation that we should NOT paint ourselves into a corner about having no Customs control at the Border. If we want to stay in the Customs Union, controls are unavoidable.

      Understand it now, and save ourselves a U-turn further down the line…

    126. This is what brings politics into disrepute and scunners ordinary people.

      What did the Libdems think they were going achieve by that nonsensical motion, beside attempting to con people that they are holding the Scottish Government to account.

      The dismantling of police Scotland and the restoration of
      all the regional police forces?

    127. Moonlight says:

      I hope that someone in the SG is currently working hard on preparing the detailed plan for a hard border. Identifying the crossing points, planning the lorry parks, locating the customs inspection sheds, identifying the truck scanning equipment etc. etc.
      The same person/group needs to be planning the port expansions needed and the airtraffic systems to route Scottish flights clear of English airspace.England will by default leave Eurocontrol, there will be no mechanism for the coordination and control of flights to and from their airspace
      It’s called thinking ahead, it’s clear enough that a new corridor of trade will open up passing in an unbroken arc around England.
      They must be allowed to shiver in their corner where they have taken back control of everything within their borders and surrendered all influence over what happens outside them.
      An independent Scotland in the EU will need this infrastructure ready and in place on the day when the door slams shut. Let’s not be caught out.
      I had also thought of a Berlin style closed route from Scotland to London so that their democratic will could also be realised, however I doubt that WM would ever contemplate such a thing through their green and pleasant land.

    128. thomas says:

      @ scot finlayson

      “the danish legacy”

      The danish threat ended with their defeat at contarf in 1014 by the irish high king brian boru.

      Whatever scandinavians were left in ireland , (like in scotland ), eventualy became absorbed into gaelic ireland.

      The sacandinavians left their mark on all of us , from iceland in the west to ukraine in the east , but it still didnt detract from what my original point was.

      if anything the vikings were as much “democratic” in their own way as the celts were.

    129. thomas says:

      @ scot finlayson

      “the danish legacy”

      The danish threat ended with their defeat at contarf in 1014 by the irish high king brian boru.

      Whatever scandinavians were left in ireland , (like in scotland ), eventualy became absorbed into gaelic ireland.

      The scandinavians left their mark on all of us , from iceland in the west to ukraine in the east , but it still didnt detract from what my original point was.

      if anything the vikings were as much “democratic” in their own way as the celts were.

    130. @thomas

      i am trying to figure out when Ireland was last a united independent country,

      parts of Ireland being controlled by the Danish for 400 years pushes back the time when Ireland was last a united independent country,

      and was Ireland a united independent country before the Danish turned up ?

    131. thomas says:

      @ scott finlayson

      As i originally said , it was last a loosely united independent country prior to the norman invasion in 1169.

      The danes/norse were beaten at the great battle of clontarf in 1018 , and the king of leinster captured dublin and surrounding scandinavian controlled area in 1052 .

      So there you have 117 years right there of ireland being wholly controlled by the irish.

    132. thomas says:

      # clontarf should be 1014.

    133. Brian Powell says:

      Dqvidson’s ‘interventions’ are like Brown’s interventions, blather, no content.

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