Enemies within
It really is quite the remarkable feat of timing that concerted mass reporting by SNP activists managed to get the Wings Twitter account (and several others) closed down this week of all weeks, isn’t it?
They’re also trying to get my personal account banned, and reporting scores of others, in an open attempt to purge any sort of dissenting opinions from public dialogue at exactly the same time as opening a “consultation” whose outcome has already been predetermined, and which in another remarkable coincidence is due to close just a few days into the four weeks scheduled for the Alex Salmond trial.
What were the odds, eh readers?
A Wings acquaintance, wholly unconnected with either Scottish politics or the gender debate, passed this comment to a mutual friend today:
It’s fair to say that the Scottish Government has something of a track record with such poorly-drafted laws, particularly in the social-justice field, with the discarded likes of the flawed Offensive Behaviour (Football) Act and the failed Named Persons legislation littering its footsteps like an incontinent dog someone hasn’t cleared up after.
But that string of disasters doesn’t seem to have dissuaded it from charging arrogantly ahead in its determination to place women in Scotland in peril from predatory males everywhere they go, with no space left safe.
Rather than scrutinising the proposed law, the Scottish media is simply parroting as undisputed fact the Scottish Government’s highly questionable assertions, such as the meaningless and subjective phrase “international best practice”.
Even the Times, one of the more gender-critical newspapers, today carries a puff piece headlined by an unchallenged Scottish Government claim that everything’s fine:
There is in fact a vast catalogue of well-documented evidence in the UK alone contradicting that claim, even before self-ID has been implemented – partly compiled by someone whose Twitter account‘s days are also undoubtedly numbered. The Scottish Government has simply dismissed it all airily with a wave of the hand.
But if the entryist trans-rights activists who have infiltrated and poisoned the SNP think that shutting down this site’s Twitter account will silence it on the subject, they are gravely mistaken. This is the most dangerous piece of legislation ever proposed in Scotland, not just to women but to society as a whole.
In George Orwell’s famous warning about the genesis and day-to-day operation of absolute tyranny, “1984”, the protagonist Winston Smith makes a realisation:
“Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two makes four. If that is granted, all else follows.”
What the line means is that so long as it is permissible to state certain obvious truths, the key notion that there is a factual basis for reality cannot be countermanded. The authoritarian dictatorship (Ingsoc) which runs Winston’s world uses intimidation and torture to force Winston to deny this most basic foundation stone of reason, and it’s that which enables it to suppress every other aspect of dissent and exercise total power over the population, which – in the real stroke of malign genius – is policed and enforced by the terrified citizens themselves.
(“Cancel culture” is the new “network of informants”.)
The fact that humans are a sexually dimorphic species in which the words “woman” and “man” have clearly-defined and mutually-exclusionary meanings demonstrates that “women don’t have penises” is a statement of truth far more fundamental than “2+2=4”, because human sexual dimorphism began at the evolution of primates and predated the existence of language and arithmetic by tens of millions of years.
If humans could not distinguish the two (and only two) sexes from each other, mankind would not have survived to invent those concepts and none of us would be here now.
So it is not in any sense an exaggeration to say that what the Scottish Government is proposing is the formal and legal abolition of reality. Or to be more precise, the recasting of reality as a hate crime. That subversion of the entire concept of fact, and the violently enforced moulding of behaviour to that end, was the core of Orwell’s book.
(Remember that the vast majority of the public, including SNP voters, opposes self-ID. The SNP cares not a jot about that fact.)
(Twitter’s standard response to appeals notes that “if we determine that the primary purpose of an account is to incite harm towards others on the basis of these categories, that account may be suspended without prior warning”, or in other words, “if we don’t like you we’ll ban you whether you’ve broken any rules or not”.)
(The SNP simply blanks all awkward questions on the subject of self-ID. Try asking your MP their position, or which rights trans people don’t have currently, or why you can’t change your age on your birth certificate if you can change your sex, or how you can end mixed-sex hospital wards if you’re also letting men pretend they’re women, and you’ll get an inbox full of tumbleweed.)
That last paragraph rather puts us in mind of readers who insist that this issue is an irrelevant niche-interest distraction which can be dealt with after independence. But that dismissal is fatuous in the extreme, and not only on the grounds that alienating large numbers of voters could easily COST us independence.
Because after independence it’ll be far too late. The last possible practical opportunity to avert the Holocaust was in 1933, not 1945. The abolition of material, empirical scientific reality would define an independent Scotland forever. We cannot – we MUST not – let that happen, or everything will have been in vain.
Wings Over Scotland is and always has been in essence a fact-checking service. It has no place in a country where there are no facts, and we will fight that nightmare vision of a future Scotland until our last breath.
The rapist’s charter that is this appalling, dreadful legislation, conceived and drafted by – at the most charitable interpretation – criminally reckless morons, will open the door to consequences even worse, and this site will oppose it with all our strength no matter how many Twitter accounts are closed down.
.
OTHER RESOURCES
Claire Graham (intersex voice silenced by Twitter)
Miranda Yardley (dissenting transwoman silenced by Twitter)
Meghan Murphy (Canadian feminist silenced by Twitter, also here)
RadFem Rebecca (Feminist silenced by Twitter)
4th Wave Now (US parents group silenced by Twitter)
List of gender-critical feminists suspended by Twitter
Things that only happen to biological women
Statistics on the advantages held by biological males in women’s sports
The huge financial interests behind transgenderism
Two collections of violent threats from TRAs to women
I may not be able to follow you on Twitter any more, but I sure as hell intend to follow your blog.
As an SNP ‘activist’ (moaning online counts I tell you), I fully support to general cognitive dissonance around on any subject …
Doubley doublethinky, but its definitely the loudest shout that wins. What a iwerd world when this subject is the important one, and not the disabled deaths (suicides), the children in poverty (UK), and amazing anti-democracy.
See you next Tuesday – forever supporting that sentiment, sadly cant tweet you cos you blocked me! I mean me!!
So far it appears I can post links to this website and articled
D
This is being discussed on the Craig Murray site as I type. Some form of consensus being derived that the whole kerfuffle (beyond a vanishingly few individuals that are genuinely trans) is Psy-op. The Identity politics, Psy-op hypothesis is supported by contributors identifying as trans.
Back you fully on this. They haven’t shut down the internet or our living rooms or our meeting places and until MY last breath I’ll defend my and my sisters spaces.
Thanks Stu.
At least we can keep sharing the blog, Stuart. Little compensation at best, but the opposition to the GRA can’t stop as it puts too many at risk to even contemplate capitulation.
Off work unwell right now (spent time in emergency bed so proper unwell) and I stupidly thought I’d read it.
It is utter dogshit.
Everything about it is teeth achingly wrong. Everything that is there already is science based and about protecting folks – including trans folks! – from abusive or manipulative others.
As you said, the consultation says there’s no evidence of abuse of women from self-iding scumbags. Really? (They’re not doing a crossed fingers lie there are they and hiding those crimes as female crime stats are they?)
Moving on.
GRC after 2 years living in your assumed gender, and a medical review replaced by… *three months* of living as the other identity, no medical review and that’s it. Ok well sure you have to wait another three months after that but that’s it. What?
You actually need a medical review to buy a firearm yet being able to force everyone to call you by a different sexual identifier you don’t?
It’s like the ICD-10/11 changeover where it was embarrassing for transfolks to have that categorised as a mental illness or so they removed it from that categorisation… since when did we call an illness not an illness to remove stigma associated with it? Stigma is wrong but that is NOT how you go about fixing it: by pretending reality is not real.
Has depression been re-categorised as not a mental illness because boy it has a hell of a greater stigma for a lot more people than GID?
How about gender identity disorder… ohh disorder. That’s a nasty work and it makes it seem like it’s wrong. Let’s call it gender dysphoria instead. Unease. That’s a much more acceptable word. Of course with ICD11 coming that’ll soon be gender incongruence. Such a silly Sesame Street word! One of these things is not like the other!
Everything about this is not science based. It’s not fact based. It’s agenda based and it’s fucking barmy.
There can be no doubt where you stand. And many of us with you. Ironically too, or maybe that’s the problem, the SNP has at least several lawyers in its top ranks does it not? Very good article btw!
“criminally reckless morons” indeed. :)))
I certainly agree that there a number of unfortunately drafted pieces of leg and this is some I g that needs addressed and remedied.
I do not think clarification of the gender politics can wait till after Indy (I did think it could wait for the six weeks of election: interestingly a number of Twitter accounts on other side went quite during final week) and needs to be addressed (without excessive recourse to atypical extreme examples which would inevitable partially undermine the argument or enable it to be undermined because atypical).
As to the issue itself my mind still cannot get round aspects of it at all to form my own consistent position.
We can all fill in the the ScotGov consultation online. It was mebtioned on GMS this am.
1984 made flesh!!
I’m with you all the way on this one Stu, no if’s, and’s or but’s. They are trying to set the template for our independent Scotland and the SNP are allowing a shouty minority of loony lefties to “wag the dog”
So disappointed in the SNP just now,.
Keep doing what you are doing, the effort being put into telling us all to wheesht shows how much this is concerning the SNP hierarchy and those who have used them to promote this agenda. They must know this is dangerous and stupid.
My only hope is that enough sensible people in the SNP and other parties in Holyrood see the danger and vote against this given that the ‘Consultation’ is meaningless.
It will be interesting given the profile is now being raised if the SNP are whipped.
If anyone is interested this is taking place in January. The venue will be determined later depending on how many want to attend and also to protect attendees from the violence of TRAs that unfortunately is now a feature of any event where women try to make their voices heard. It also protects the venue from adverse publicity and violence in advance.
https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/public-meeting-for-women-scotland-tickets-86438938191
Consultation meetings on the GRA amendments are being set up now. My local branch has arranged one for January, entry is only by membership card, possibly because of a recognition of how contentious this issue is.
Spot on, Stu. The same Woko Haram lot who went after Neil Hanvey, Joan Macalpine, Joanna Cherry, etc. etc.
Maybe should start by asking Alyn Smyth some searching questions. He seems to have some sympathy with the Woke brigade judging by the company he keeps.
This is the sort of shit folk get foisted on them when there’s only one credible, and i use that word wearily, party offering what they want. Sorry for stating the obvious but there’s no way this would be happening if we had a pro-indy party vehemently opposed to this paedophiles paradise.
I’m a father to a ‘trans’ son, and I think these people, who are akin to zealots, are doing no favours to anyone, quite the opposite really.
Yeah, let’s be played, forget independence and haver about this stuff instead. Bye.
I read as much on Craig Murray’s blog. Perhaps he shares your opinion on gender issues but manages to frame it in a way that doesn’t look transphobic? I disagree with some of his views but he HAS articulated them in a way where they can be debated in a sensible manner. Sadly you have failed on that point and continue to hand ammunition to the opponents of Indy.
Have you even CONSIDERED that this whole issue is a Straw Man set up to make YOU bite??
Your writings on this make the whole Indy movement look bad, Stu. You could decide to stop commenting on the issue now that EVERYONE knows what you think or you can continue to damage the movement, up to you…
@ alibi. Woko Haram made my Tuesday. Thanks.
I know this maybe sound stupid, but is it possible the top table at the SNP have set this up to fail, that they have allowed a set of fecking idiots free reign just to expose the utter idiocy of this legislation and its adherents. Who exactly wrote this drivel, the civil service?
@jeff
It is the SNP, ‘the party of Independence’, bringing this legislation forward.
Most of us would like to get on with Independence without having to deal with yet another badly drafted piece of legislation providing ammunition for the opposition.
Is there an official hashtag for what’s going on, here?
I thought it might be #cuntgate but Armando Iannucci looks to have that one all wrapped up for Christmas.
This is the coalition of interests that the SNP now is.
It seeks to bind all sorts of “progressive” factions into a belief that the SNP are the woke party that will deliver their nirvana both now and upon independence. The WOS faction are taken for granted as people who will vote SNP in any case as their sole credible route to independence.
You have all created a monster and you will have to break all your other principles on that rock in your pursuit of independence. That is what Nationalist Parties are and always become.
I was also suspended from twitter (temporarily as it turned out) after being reported by one of those woke bros.
I am a frequent commentator & sharer of pro-indy content.
Complainant was located in USA (previous tweets referred to him shopping in US superstores etc.)
This is a concerted campaign to shut down specific voices and it wouldn’t come as a surprise if they are using this gender nonsense simply as a vehicle for that.
77,000 people responded to the Scottish government’s ‘consultation’ on legalising same sex marriage.
Only 36% agreed with the notion. It went through regardless.
There is form here, by the shovelful.
Small wonder there is disaffection from party politics and its agents.
I wish to have confidence in the SNP but the intellect softly whispers beware.
I put this on the previous thread but it probably sits better on this thread…
Expecting women to park the assault on our sex based rights until after independence will not win Scotland independence.
Those that see this as a side issue should research what is happening right now (and that is before this legislation is even passed).
I appeal to SNP party members to push the leadership to reel in the necks of the woke contingent – it is they that are undermining independence, not women who are trying to protect our sex based rights.
It is wrong to say that self ID does not impact on women’s rights, it does. There is already evidence that this is the case in sport and female safe spaces. The lesbian community is facing an onslaught of trans activism expecting them to accept ‘girl-dick’ (not my words the words of the trans activists).
Trans people have the same human rights as everyone else. But to accept that ‘trans women are women’ or ‘trans men are men’ means that we are anti-science. People cannot change sex, biology matters.
We would not accept the beliefs of Creationists, flat earthers and such like as it’s anti-science – this is the same. We cannot change sex. We are not born in the wrong body, there is no such thing as female brain / male brain.
I have no problem for how people want to live their lives, or how they want to present themselves / identify as. But we are going down a rabbit hole to say that people can self ID as the other sex from what they are biologically born as; have that enshrined in law and then expect unfettered access to the spaces of the sex they ‘identify’ with.
Many transexuals (who are a protected group under the current GRA) also agree that self ID is a dangerous path to go down.
Instead of expecting women to park our sex based rights until after independence, we should insist the SNP park GRA reform until after independence!
There was a furore recently about releasing worboys – the current champion rapist of the UK; they got a grip of themselves and decided to keep him in and throw away the key.
If he has a sense of humour, he should start identifying as “Brenda” and get sent to a womens nick where he can fight with all the lesbians.
This 2 + 2 = whatever we say it is, on the day as we feel like it – it all comes out of postmodernism, which is what they have been teaching the kids for a generation who are not in STEM; objective reality does not exist, its all discourses and power relations.
On a lighter note, conspiracy theory du jour sems to be : 5G radiation will turn US ALL TRANNY anyway
Alas, our SNP ScotGovt has form with ‘“consultation” whose outcome has already been predetermined’
Perhaps an unpopular reality but a couple of years ago there was a consultation on requiring air rifles to be licensed. Over 80% of the responses were against the concept.
Regardless, licensing for air rifles was enacted, ensuring a 65 quid fee be paid.
Show me a self-identifying ‘progressive’ who doesn’t wear jackboots.
I posted this on twitter, will try to keep your presence there till I , undoubtedly will get kicked off too.
Just a wee marker – when I posted Rev’s other Twitter account name on the previous thread, the number of followers was at 6951.
It’s now 6967.
Why is the other account important?
Because it means Rev can keep an eye on what’s being said about him and, by extension, every one of us.
And a significant boost in followers to @RevStu also sends the message to the haters and entryists – we won’t be silenced.
You seem to have decided to ‘soar over Scottish transgender politic’ at exactly the time the Yes movement needs your services most.
We are about to enter a defining battle with the Tory government.
It feels like your views on the GRA are more important to you than this and that is a pity.
I implore you to set this aside in the meantime. You have made your views more than clear. Failing this set up a separate blog specifically to fight the battle which is clearly crucial in your view.
Its your blog, you can do with it as you wish but in my view you are harming the yes movement by persisting, particularly after last weeks election and developments.
You are on the right side of sanity Stuart and as such you will have the backing you need. Meanwhile the SNP will work towards destroying the independence movement.
Sorry but this is a distraction we can do without. I am sure there may be issues affecting a minority of people in Scotland, but sorry, Independence trumps this issue. Stop wasting time on Gender Acts and giving our opposition ammunition to use against us. Get Ind done then go for these “desirable” (?) fringe issues. If we lose Ind ref I will personally hold each and everyone of the people involved in advancing this, personally responsible.
jeff wrote on 18 December, 2019 at 12:57 pm:
“Yeah, let’s be played, forget independence and haver about this stuff instead. Bye.”
The SNP did not have to deal with this issue until after indy. THEY brought it to the fore and THEY seem to be ignoring the vast majority so own that shit and stop trying to offload blame on others who stand against these issues.
THEY also failed massively to deal with a bunch of c@nts running around on various platforms boasting how they were going to work to rid the party of certain MPs. MPs who’ve actually earned their position in the SNP *&* in life.
As i said, the SNP created this situation at this particular time. Why? I pray it’s some sort of elaborate deflection/deception. So if you’re a member you better own it because every bit of this shit is on yous until that extreme minority are dealt with and the full matter put to rest.
If you read this thread you’ll see another Winger posting about his son. I can tell you he’s not the only one. I’ve seen several Trans folk posting their stances against all of this madness. True Trans folk are not the problem, sexual deviants and other criminals are, and those who deny responsibility for this situation.
Wings doesn’t stay quiet, never has, never will. You can’t pick and choose what truths you want to hear and when you want to hear them. The SNP were not elected to force extreme minority issues passed the majority. They created this PR mess nobody else.
For those that are thinking about fighting this war against pseudo-science on twitter, I strongly suggest setting yourselves up with a VPN. You have to make it as difficult as possible for WokoHaram to silence you.
I can only speak from my time as a mod on an old videogame forum, but it’s a lot easier to keep slamming the banhammer down on you if all your accounts are tied to the same IP. just a heads up.
I’m going through the consultation document right now, but saw on twitter advice to wait for submitting until a group issues guidance in the new year. But the document so far is, as mentioned, horrendous.
Also noted is the reference to the Equality Act 2010, which needs changing (and I checked the original act as the SNP are misrepresenting advice as definition in 2.08 and 2.09):
“In section 212(1) of the 2010 Act the definition of “woman” is “means a female of any age” and the definition of “man” is “means a male of any age”.” (5.11).
That needs to be changed to ‘adult’ in both instances in the Equality Act. The trans are having a field day bringing children into their ideology as it is.
Re twitter, I think sauce for the goose applies here: why not have multiple accounts created by Indy Supporters to retweet info and links to articles here?
I suggest a template of:
@We_Are_Wings_OptionalExtraIdentifier
Swearing would of course be by personal preference of the new account creator.
I mostly agree with your stance on this subject, but thought you were a bit of a knob(clit)head for focusing on it pre-election.
Now I would say fill yer boots.
The SNP should not be helping to administer the Scotland colony for the British Empire anyway. So, this situation should not even have arisen for the SNP.
I have been warning for years about the devolved Scot Govt becoming unaccountable and corrupted by power, especially regarding the Named Person Scheme and Scottish NHS.
What else would you expect from a WM branch office?
I have repeatedly complained that the Scottish Govt is unaccountable and the SPSO Public Services Ombudsman ( which also deals with complaints about the Scot Govt) is little more than a sham operation that operates to prevent real scrutiny of public bodies, such as the Scot Govt.
As I’ve said before, I no longer vote SNP for Holyrood and so far have no intentions of changing my mind about that.
(Despite my clear support for the SNP at the 2019 GE because I support independence.)
Will all you men saying “oh just leave it for now” please stop! Our rights aren’t something that can be parked by the wayside! This discussion needs to happen now, or it will be too late.
I appreciate the frustration, that this is a distraction from the indy cause. Again, please take it up with the party, with those who have decided to thrust this issue forefront, not with those of us fighting for our rights.
As Stuart says, a fact checking service has no place in a country without facts.
Thank you to those of you who do get it.
Does the term ‘wedge issue’ ring any bells with you?
I responded to the ‘Scotlands Choice’ email on 13th telling NS that the safety of my wife, and every other female in Scotland, trumped independence.
If this gets pushed through I won’t, after fifty years, be voting SNP again.
Well if you ruffled a few feathers before this will surely send them all apoplectic, they want a fight then let’s give them a fight, these little pricks have had their way for long enough, if this doesn’t shake things up nothing will and not only are they doing untold damage to the party but they are a bigger threat to Independence than even the die hard unionists.
Freedom of speech and thought is worth fighting for. It always interests me the lengths that organised cliques will go to to impose their ideologies and their will on others. And they tend always to have the upper hand at first.
I for one have no intention to live in a country thought-policed by others who set themselves above me.
Let’s fact-check, openly discuss and critically evaluate our way to better country.
100% behind you Stu.
You are correct. The SG is making a massive mistake here.
After indy they will loose my support if this becomes law.
@Frank Waring 2.22pm
Yes and some of us here have been warning the more trusting souls about it for a while, Nevertheless this legislation affects the sex-based rights of women and needs tackled head on.
Kevan Lyons:
“It feels like your views on the GRA are more important to you than this and that is a pity.”
It is reasonable to point out that this represents a gross misreading of the situation. Why that is so is another issue/question.
This is not about the GRA per se but about the dangerous denial of evidence based objective reality. A denunciation of evidence and science in favour of the Humpty Dumpty world of every atomised individual refusing point blank to live in the reality based community by defining reality to suit their own subjective view of the world and how it should be in relation to their own base or selfish needs.
Everything we interact with in the world around us is based on these fundamental realities of evidence based thought. Without it nothing we take for granted can exist or endure.
In less than twenty years we have gone from Karl Rove’s claim of the elite/establishment/MIC creating its own reality to suit its own parasitic ends to every individual wanting to do the same.
Here is an insight into the dystopian bullshit we are dealin with here:
https://thefederalist.com/2019/12/05/transgender-activist-jessica-yaniv-shocked-gynecologists-dont-treat-men/
Basic common sense such as rights starting where other people’s rights end are being systematically undermined.
It’s not bleedin’ quantum mechanics to understand and comprehend the position being taken here.
Whatever hat we wear we are human beings first and gang members (including political gangs) second.
Objectively, it takes a great deal of mental effort not to get that.
I’m a tough old bird but you post has me in tears. Thank you for your support & determination not to give up x
Objectively the act is a horrendously worded piece of garbage. Whatever its aims, it completely contradicts itself at times, fails to define the concepts at the start (see: any letter or ruling in any case ever, all T&Cs- the first several pages are seemingly inane definitions for this very reason)so the plan becomes meaningless.
I read it and responded. I would encourage everyone to do the same. I’m sure it will achieve very little but at least we can say we tried and the evidence will be there in any FOIs.
https://consult.gov.scot/family-law/gender-recognition-reform-scotland-bill/
@John Moss –
Hear hear.
The entryists have been celebrating the closure of WOS Twitter. Cameron Archibald has ventured out onto the thin ice again by accusing Stu of ‘encouraging anti-semitism’. Some of the replies to his goading have been, let’s say, ‘succinct’, but none (that I’ve seen anyway) have provided the kind of reaction he’s surely looking for.
Some prominent names in the SNP have already been seriously damaged by this whole episode, but they’re not the people who the TRAs had in their sights.
So, resignations should be forthcoming, and if they aren’t? Someone with real clout (John Swinney perhaps?) has to give these zealots their jotters.
GMS had a discussion about this stuff this morning. It was about as enlightening as you might expect (i.e. not at all) but at least the issue is now getting out to a broader audience. SNP has a duty to all of its members *not* to allow a coterie of fanatics to misrepresent everyone else – the party must put up someone senior to deal with this, and make it plain that the person has the full backing of the leadership. And they have to do it soon.
@Ian Brotherhood.
My knowledge on this subject is limited, but I’ve read your posts on here for years. As you were an SSP member, i’ll take it your heart is in the right place, so i’ll follow your lead.
Sheesh Hesitation,repetitipn,DEVIATION.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=D87DN_15r5Q
O/T. Same old Politics Scotland. Three Unionist Westminster MPs ganging up on SNP rep who is interupted and then Ian Murray gets last word to attack the SNP. Balance my arse and Labour and Lib Dems should only get alternative weekly appearances with SNP getting last word
Clearly something is profoundly wrong when the granting of rights to some requires the removal of rights from others.
@Juteman –
🙂
Since transgender health issues are no longer classified as mental and behavioural disorders in the new edition of the World Health Organization’s global manual of diagnoses which will be published in 2022, and countries will need to amend or replace existing legislation to take account of the new classification is not the case that countries will use similar legislation for the new classification?
NS isn’t a leader she is a follower of fashion imo. So glad I’m not a member anymore. Without the support of 52% of the population comprising women Indy is dead in the water.
If this issue damages our chances, the entire blame should be upon the SNP for (at best) utter stupidity. Stu’s stance has never been more or better reasoned. A fact free (or flexible) environment is the last thing we need while arguing the logic of independence.
I am coming to the conclusion that if indyref does not happen soon or if it fails for any reason, then it will be an age before the SNP gets anywhere near it again, if ever. If this happens it would then be necessary for the yes movement to dissociate itself from and probably oppose the SNP in future. Such action would no longer be potentially damaging the cause of independence but would, rather, be keeping the flame alive.
Stu,
Precisely my thoughts on the matter, even beyond the consideration of throwing women’s rights under the bus.
In this specific case, I have nothing against trans people and wish the best for them (as I do for everyone else), but I’m fucked if I can respect any cult that expects me to deny reality in order to gain their approval. This carries on, in an independent Scotland, my first vote will be for a party other than the SNP.
In a media landscape where truth is, er, somewhat malleable, your integrity is a rare thing. I’ll be contributing to your next crowdfunder with pleasure.
All this woke and transgender pish is going to cost the SNP big time.
At the moment, their sole focus should be on getting Independence done. Once we are free of Westminster, the SNP government, can set the agenda for the first truly Independent Scottish parliament.
But, I suspect, once we have Indy, the SNP will shatter into various sub-sects, while a lot of those Labour and Tory supporters, who believe in Independence and have loaned the SNP their votes, will return to Labour and Tory parties that are truly, 100% Scottish and putting Scotland first.
Once we win Independence – which may, with the post-referendum victory negotiations, could well take us until 2023, there will need to be elections to the Parliament of Scotland, so, I would reckon, within ten years, the SNP may well be history.
Ande if they keep coming up with badly-planned legislation, they will have nobody to blame but themselves.
I have already said on this very forum that it took great persuasion to get my wife and three daughters to vote SNP this time because of GRA.
I gave them assurances that this wohld all be sorted lost election.
It means a lot to them as women to protect the rights they have won and to pass those r ights on to my gradaughters. This is not a smal! issue for them. It ia as my daughter said life defining. Throughout my life I have always favoured ghe opinion of the women in my life, bdcause they are normally balanced and equitable. It has stood me in good stead.
When they tell me this Act is unfair and dangerous to them, I tend to believe them. They are experts at being women, I am not.
I am a 69-year-old woman who has waited 52 years for indy. I am not in favour of this act not just for myself but for 3 daughters-in-law and 6 grand-daughters, the eldest of whom is 20 and gay. The others range from 10 to almost 3.
More than 40 years ago my mother took my eldest son who was 7 at the time to London for a week and she was almost apologetic when she told me she took him in to the ladies toilets “as you don’t know who is in the gents.”
Just hearing St Andrews House being evcuated due to suspicious item. Holyrood yesterday as well?
Unionists getting desperate?
Statement on GRA consultation from Women Make Glasgow:
https://womenmakeglasgow.home.blog/scottish-governments-unwanted-unwarranted-gender-recognition-consultation/
Online cry-bullies aren’t as strong and brave as they like to make out. If this is passed in the Scottish Parliament next year, I will definitely be voting against the SNP 1+2 at the next Holyrood election.
Abellio ScotRail contract to be ended early
https://archive.is/Af7Za
To your list at the end I would add Rebecca Eddy’s blog https://radfemrebecca.com
She was also banned from twitter for no good reason. I have commented on her blog a few times since I agree with her in spades.
Tomorrow I have nothing on so I intend to give the GRA bill my persona scrutiny and comment starting with the ‘international best practice’ lie.
I urge everyone to also comment on the bill so ScotGov are at no doubt that none of us approve of it.
I replied to Sturgeon’s latest email missive to the effect that because of it I may never vote SNP again and in case they are reading this I mean that with all my heart* and not inconsiderable intellect (BSc, PhD).
In the 2015 ‘Roar through the Glens’ General Election I helped get the vote out for Stuart Hosie. Never again even though I like and admire Stuart and have met him and exchanged email correspondence. As for Mharie Black, hell mend her.
And for all those politicians too scared of being called names to do the right thing a pox on you all you utter moral cowards. As Michaelangelo muttered after being forced to recant his solar centrism: it still moves. I can look on genbank at the human X and Y chromosomes and recognise and know the function of many of the genes. I will NEVER resile from that knowledge while I draw breath.
*I have HR evidence that despite being 54 I have the heart of a 30yo so anyone hoping it will give up on me soon will be disappointed.
Muscleguy.
Brilliant. This is the most enlightening article you have ever written. It pinpoints the fundamental requirement to protect every citizen and respect reality.
This is Scotland, home of science, invention and discovery. It disgusts me that such a travesty of science as the GRA 2004 should ever have been incorporated into law. The prospect of extending its provisions to all on demand is a disgrace.
The Scottish Government need never have become embroiled in this delusion. But now that it has, it is necessary that we all respond to the consultation and make our views known. The ministers responsible must be held to account.
Yes, of course transexuals must be afforded the same rights and protections as every other citizen. But not at the expense of women and girls.
Greta Thunberg has a short but memorable way of putting it: we can all unite around the science. Everyone is needed.
For those who don’t think this is important
Have another look at one of the links Stu provides in the article.
https://twitter.com/historywoman/status/1191453438825181186
That’s what’s been happening BEFORE selfidentity becomes law.
Because the transactivists realised they could equate opposition to it as a hate crime (transphobia) without having to get the law changed.
And so many like the police and prison service have gone along with that thinking.
Transactivists clearly don’t give a feck about actual women.
Mysogony in a dress.
Pure and simple
This is a very contenious issue, and I agree with you in the most part. However independence must be front and centre, laws can be repealed, independence is forever.
@republicofscotland
“Independence is forever” No its not , and might not be if you go out of your way to deprive over half the population of Scotland what their !egal rights are.
I came across some interesting figures recently. While domestic violence was perpetrated by 60% men and 40% women, on average, the top 10 of most violent individuals in a society (and therefore the most likely to be in prison) are male, because men cluster at the extremes whereas women tend to cluster around the average. (same goes for intelligence, incidentally).
This means that the men in prison claiming to be transgender are likely to be amongst the most violent people, of either Gender in a society.
I can’t see what could possibly go wrong in this scenario.
Ah ken yiv goat a not inconsiderable intellect (BSc, PhD),
but wiz it no Galileo Galilei that muttered “And yet it moves”,
and,
`I have the heart of a 30yo`
di they no want it back.
Sorry that should have been,
@Muscleguy, 4.15pm.
So, you’re saying it’s a bad situation.
If we don’t vote SNP then we have no chance of regaining our country and dumping an extreme right wing English government.
Seems many on here do not place our Independence front and center. If you are determined to bring the SNP down then you are certainly making your best efforts to give reasons to do it. Seems a few folk on here have lost focus and seem to want to fight hard for other causes way, way before Scottish Independence.
Who cares about independence? We were never going to get it anyway. That cause is dead. All the Scottish people want now is interminable tedious vitriolic arguments on Twitter about the rights of transgender people. It’s the one issue that’s sweeping the nation. Independence is just a distraction from the true cause that really matters to the citizens of Scotland.
I find this a more pressing – worrying issue than Boris at the moment. The closing down of debate , timing and targets are very concerning. I have agreed with all your comments and views on this issue from the off and for what it’s worth continue to do so. The SNP need to get their house in order and quickly and root out these people or it will be a high speed car crash
@Reluctant Nationalist,
We can all be capped with that particular hat. Remind me. When did women get the vote in the UK? When were women granted equal pay and employment rights in the UK ?
I could go on and on but clearly you think like amazingly, a bit of a racist, therefore nothing registers.Asshole.
Old Pete @ 4.59pm
Regarding your statement I have voted and been a member of the SNP for 40 years, I’ve never lost sight and hope of independence but I can clearly see a concerted effort of closing down debate and any dissenting voices with a platform being silenced, which is believe is totally wrong, whoever is doing the silencing.
@Ronnie,
Its about the rights of women to be accurate. Or do they not count for much in your world?
Gender long predates the rise of primates, but then there are “male” hamsters which behave as females due to exposure to hormones in the womb. They have no choice in the matter. They read no gender politics literature. They aren’t pretending to gain some advantage in deviant behaviour. They simply have brains that formed in a female way after their “bodies” were set and they are what they are. It’s a shame about influence on Indyref2. RIP Wings
Ronnnie.
This issue nearly cost Joanna Cherry her seat.
And if Neale Hanvey hadn’t stood as an independent candidate,
I would have had Lesley Laird as my local MP.
There’s no point thinking transactivism is not directly relevant.
Old Pete @4:59pm
You can’t put independence front and center if 51% of the army is not going to show up for the battle.
If you claim more than 1 week of sickness pay or benefit you need a medical certificate
Just saying
I’m transsexual, and I’m against self-ID (I have a GRC and think the current GRA system is fair as it is – no need to change it). I oppose any policy that might bring violent men into women’s spaces, and think Craig Murray’s take on this is sensible.
Nevertheless, what baffles me is the current obsession with trans people. We are 0.3% of the population, and live our lives peacefully. We transition to feel happy in our own bodies, not so we can assault other people. If I had wanted to assault others, I’d have just gone ahead and done that without the bother of all the surgeries I had.
AFAIK, these incidents of violent men claiming to be trans – linked to by Stuart – aren’t actually cases of transsexuals (i.e. people who’ve had gender surgery and live permanently – under all circumstances – in their acquired gender role); they’re transvestites (people who just dress up and claim a different identity, without having had gender surgery). I dislike how transsexuals and transvestites are conflated. People need to realise that there’s a difference between the two cohorts, and that transsexuals are generally law-abiding people.
yer like a dug wi a bone, stu
& that’s no bad thing
they can’t handle the truth
facts always win
keep on
I’m with you on this one Stu but I can’t compare it to the Offensive Behaviour (Football) Act and the Named Persons legislation. Both of those were very well supported, the first by the public and the second by many organisations involved with children. Both were rejected, to score petty political points, purely because the SNP had brought them forward. In fact, did Labour not actually support Named Persons, if not suggest it themselves?
@ AnotherAyreshireScot – dimorphic reproduction has existed on this planet for over 4 billion years. With the exception of amoeba and fungi, all life forms reproduce through the production of male and female gametes which then combine to form either a male or female individual.
There is no other form of life.
Yes there are a very small number of humans who show some variation in chromosomes, gonads and genitals. But they are still either male or female.
Hope that helps clarify the biology.
@mike cassidy,
Neale Hanvey looked braw in his kilt during the swearing in pish at Westminster,
hope he wears it every day in the septic Westminster parliament,
would really piss off our Scottish cringers.
As I have said repeatedly on here I am sick and tired of governments of all shades telling us the voters they know what is best for us , this insistence that the majority MUST deny the reality of science and biology in an effort to placate a minority of individuals who obviously have unfortunate issues to deal with only serves to alienate the very people it is designed to protect
The SNP were very aware of the upset this contentious GRA bill was causing prior to the election with many many people publicly stating that they would either not vote for them or would vote for them but in holding their noses , yet in their haste to push this bill through everything else is pushed aside . What the hell are they playing at , is it a deliberate attempt at political suicide , is it a deliberate feck you to their voters , or is it a gross insensitivity to the implications this bill will have on 50% + relatives on our female population
I say again this did not need to happen at this very important time in our independence fight , the SNP have CHOSEN to put this issue at the forefront , NOT Stuart Campbell or our womenfolk . CANCEL THE CONSULTATION UNTIL INDEPENDENCE AND CONCENTRATE ON THE REAL FIGHT FOR ALL SCOTS
No need to publish
Check out Ross Colquhoun who was bragging earlier today of taking you down on orders from above
The same Ross Colquhoun who runs over 200 twitter & FB fake accounts in all manner of names and genders including trans and other LGBTQ Keep up the good work Stuart
“No its not , and might not be if you go out of your way to deprive over half the population of Scotland what their !egal rights are.”
Might, could, should, would, independence is not the domain of the SNP its the domain of the whole grassroots movement. I agree that womens rights are being infringed but why would they vote no in an independence referendum.
“Check out Ross Colquhoun who was bragging earlier today of taking you down on orders from above”
He was? Link?
“I’m with you on this one Stu but I can’t compare it to the Offensive Behaviour (Football) Act and the Named Persons legislation. Both of those were very well supported, the first by the public and the second by many organisations involved with children.”
Yes, they’re different in that regard, but both were badly written which was ultimately their downfall.
Forget it Stu. I’m sorry ladies it’s inevitable and goes hand in hand with the rest of the EU neoliberal agenda that I am sure NS accepts as the way forward. The next generation of children being “educated to accept 2 + 2 = 5, without any hesitation. Best try to make a stand in other areas. being allowed to continue getting oil and gas out of the ground to improve the lives of Scottish Citizens might be a good start, but that may also be too late, little Greta already suggested Norway should stop investing in its oil industry. I’m afraid the people will soon willingly leave those resources in the ground as they wait for their free public transport to arrive in the next half hour. (reduced service Sunday’s).
@ Bob Mack: “Asshole.”
Back at you. And then some. *kiss*
What is the proccess of the SNP removing someone`s membership.
Thanks so much for your tireless work to draw attention to this subject and the dreadful harm this change in the law will enable.
jeff@1257
Me too Jeff!!!
Most people don’t give a rats ass about this(whether that’s right or wrong is irrelevant to the masses)
Independence should be everyone’s focus and if a concerted wings attack of the SNP on stuff like this continues, then the MSM will make hay. And everyone on here knows how they work.
Independence first above everything, then you can hold the SNP’s feet to the fire over any issue.
If we are not independent soon then a Boris UK won’t give a shit!!
Ok folks. I know many here consider me to be some MI5 arsehole. Or maybe just a basic boring arsehole. Whatever the case please pay attention –
This is a facet of post modernist thinking.
What is post modernism? Very basically its a philosophy that holds that there are no objective markers for standards, morality, civilization. Anything. That’s why 2 + 2 doesnt necessarily equal 4 and if you think it does then YOU are the one who is brain washed.
Post modernism is to civilisation what modern art is to art. Modern art is post modernism made solid.
Ok, so thats very vague and only slightly interesting at best. Whats important to understand however is post modernist thinking has infected most of our institutions of learning, our law makers and political parties. It is communist at its very core.
Where does it come from?
It comes chiefly from communist intellectuals of the Frankfurt school who fled Germany in the 30’s. The same type of people who helped the Bolsheviks kill many millions under their equity doctrine. The ones who educated Pol Pot and Chairman Mao in Europe.
You are not just dealing with a ‘small clique’ within the SNP. You are dealing with an international movement supported and funded by wealthy banking families among many others that own media, political and financial institutions.
This is frankly far too large a pill for anyone to swallow that hasnt already begun to learn this. The natural reaction is to consider the person who says what I have said to be a half-wit or to suffer from paranoia.
They are who George Orwell, among many others, was warning of.
The only reason things havent gone further than they have is down to the durability of our imperfect political and legal systems. Oh and the mass of bigots like me who wont just accept any shite a person with a degree says.
I suppose questions rather statements might make a better case –
– why are all Western governments making similar commitments to the same ends. Such as GRA? (except the one everyone is trained to hate in the Whitehouse) Despite the lack of popular support?
– why is freedom of speech over these issues all suppressed and people who speak out attacked (both online and physically)? (again, the guys we are all supposed to hate dont follow this rule book).
– Why are our learning institutions in every major Western country following the same basic code and the same restrictions of speech when criticizing it?
– Why are the same people slowly testing the waters with the idea of paedophilia being a legitimate sexuality?
– Why are the police in the UK under staffed when it comes to burglaries or assault but manage to enforce politically correct thinking rather swiftly?
– Could this also have some link with why we are to accept alien and potentially hostile cultures into our societies while free speech over the issue is suppressed by law and at the same time we are taught that nothing we have ever done isnt in some way aggressive and tyrannical and that we owe the world reparations?
In short we have in our midst people who wish to turn everything we consider wholesome and strong (such as womens rights or the protection of our children) upside down and they do it in the name of progress and inclusion.
As for the SNP – that’s why i didnt vote.
The point is this – if you allow them they wont stop. There is no limit. Nobody is sacred. Nothing is off limits.
If you dont believe what im saying then IF you see someone pushing the acceptance of paedophilia as some sort of ‘oppressed sexuality that needs liberating’ then you need to reconsider what you think you know or dont know. Because that’s the next step after women lose their rights
@AndyMcKangry
You don’t seem to grasp that when we are trying to get independence we won’t get it because 52% of the population will have been $hat on and will not vote for it.
Kill this or kill Independence, these are the choices we have.
Oh yeah – for anyone putting Scottish independence above the rights of women: you are already more my enemy than anybody who supports the Union
Good to see more men realise the seriousness of this issue but typical some will still think Independence matters more than women’s rights. However, the GRA reform issue affects everyone, girls and women afraid to use single sex spaces because they dont want to see penises in gender neutral toilets or worse, be assaulted by an opportunist predator who has legally gained entry to their space. Disabled toilets start to get used by able bodied people wanting safety. Men will become enraged that their wife, sister, mother or daughter has had to deal with a pervert in womens changing rooms.
Ian Brotherhood, above is wrong about John Swinney, as he is as Woke as the rest. This issue goes back to section 28 repeal which we all rightly thought was for same sex relationship education in schools but we were fooled. A few powerful people in Stonewall or LGBT orgs want much more.They now teach trans and Queer sex education. Swinney is happy that masturbation is discussed for Primary kids. Teenagers are advised to search out kinks on porn and advice about the best way for anal sex, feltching, and many more hardcore issues that teens dont need to know.
This is deliberate, these people want kids abused either medically or sexually. They are teaching kids that you can change gender and become trans. The SNP are fully complicit in what Stonewall and Scottish Trans/ Equality Network want to do. There are connections to know peadophiles James Rennie & John Hain.
People need to stop supporting the SNP in votes, money or membership. Complain to every MSP whatever party but Scot Gov are going to pasd this Bill next year with help from Greens and Woke Libs and Labour. There are good people opposing it but its not enough. Complaints about the draft Bill and comments on the Consultation forum isnt enough. This needs real protest and Court Action as soon as possible. We should be demanding resignations too.
@anotherayrshireScot. Please provide evidence of this -change in sex. No mammals can change sex.
There’s a research genetic scientist on twitter who has studied over 90.000 neonates and sex expression.
Over 99% of these have the sex they presented with at birth.
She has gone through every single one of the other babies and only one out of the 90,000+ has dubious sex.
These cases are classed as intersex and are a result of genetic or hormone disorders.
There is NO such thing as a sexed brain
@ Joe – the Nihilists in mid 19th Century Russia preached the same bleak programme as the “postmodernists” you cite. Basically, the young men (and now women) want to revolutionise society and when everyone is at everyone’s throats, they can step in and take over. The top 10% will bully the herd into submission. See Steve Bannon and Dominic Cummings for modern incarnations.
Alfred Adler put it rather well:
The eldest child is a conservative. He believes that the people already in power should stay in power.
The second child is a revolutionary. He believes that those in power should be overthrown and power shared out democratically.
Modern Art had nothing to do with postmodernism BTW.
@ Capella
Post modernism is the belief that there are no objective standards. Its all relative
Modern art has no objective standards. Its all relative.
That’s why I made the comparison.
Die Gedanken sind frei… as the German folk song goes. Well, not unless your thoughts are of curried lentils and beard oil and letting sexual predators into women’s safe spaces. We cannot allow this monstrous idiocy to stand. Please wait for the various women’s groups to publish their guidance before making your submission.
As for those advocating that the safety of women and children can be put aside until we are in better days – fuck you.
You have brought this on yourself by behaving like a complete arse!
Your worth to the independence movement has moved from hugely productive to counter productive!
The biggest sigh is reserved to those who have kept faith with you despite the evidence and story being completely obvious.
What a shame!
The World Health Organisation’s 194 member states have two years in which to put the new classification into practice at a national level. The target deadline is 1st January 2022.
There’s no such thing as coincidence.
Decided.
I will be cancelling my SNP membership tomorrow, so will my partner. We will still vote SNP – for now – as the only vehicle available to Independence. My son’s had enough, he has already cancelled his membership and says he wont even vote for them! – which amounts to him not voting at all.
What a fucking mess. Identity politics will be the ruin of us.
@Republicofscotland,
Why would the women in my family vote for indy if it deprives them of securities they have enjoyed for decades.
They would be voting to DEPRIVE themselves of rights ,not enjoy more. Dont think they are that dim.
Instead of cancelling your membership atm, why not get onto your Branch and make sure everyone knows about this consultation and the implications of changing the law.
Why step out of the tent to piss when you could be inside the tent where you could do more good?
Rev Stuart Campbell, you have my whole support on your stance.
The real problem as I see it with this gender self -id p*sh, is simply this. To a lay person, who knows nothing of the subject, when you see people objecting to self id, you just think, what is their problem, bigots. As a gay person, when I first heard of these things, I too thought, why are people objecting? are they really so bigotted and hateful. And then I started finding out about the implications of such legislation, and how this issue is being used to undermine society, women’s rights, and ESPECIALLY gay and lesbian rights.
You see, if their are no sexes, then their is no such thing as being gay or lesbian (same sex attratced). This leads to nosnesne such asd people like stonewall referring to homosexuals as same gender attracted, which is baloney. This then leads on to utter barstewards aggressively telling lesbains they are transphobic, because they do not want to sleep with men who ‘self ID’ as women (i.e they have tadgers).
The other problem is the way in which these violent, aggressive, bullying ‘trans’ campaigners have literally stolen the campaign for gay rights, and re-written key aspects to make out it was all done by what they call ‘trans’ people. It absolutely, freaking well wasn’t.
And here’s the thing, gay rights absolutely are not ‘trans’ rights. That is why the LGB alliance has been formed by among others, Simon Fanshawe, who originally co-founded stonewall, to fight for gay and lesbian rights, against an absolute onslought from this ‘trans’ ideology. Many gay folk are angry about this gender nonsense.
Sadly, organisations which were originally established to fight for gay rights have been taken over by the trans nutters, to the extent that lesbians have been excluded (by MEN!!) from pride parades, merely for stating the absolute biological FACT that women do not have penises.
I do not understand the Scottish Government pursuing this legislation. Firstly, their is no desperate need for it, secondly, it is based around nonsense – that a man can become a women, merely by thinking it.
This is bad, bad law and legislation, driven by extremists in the SNP. A government can write any laws it wants to, but I will NEVER adhere to this gender nonsense. Men are not women, men cannot become women, merely by thinking about it, and homosexuals are, by definition same-SEX attracted. Sex is NOT gender.
It is nonsense of the very highest order, and the SNP will one day be made to pay a very heavy price, for pursuing this utter rubbish.
Just a final point, this does not mean I dislike trangender folk. I know one such person. I agree their lives should be made as easy as possible (it can be really hellish for such folk), and if a person wishes to be treated as a different sex, then that is up to them. However, they cannot be treated fully as a different sex, in the same way some would like. It is unacceptable for a male bodied grown man, to change in women’s facilities or use women’s toilets/spaces, regardless of how they themselves ‘think’. They should be supported and as ADULTS allowed to have medical interventions if that is what suits them. Children, however, should NEVER be told unfounded sh*te such as they have been born into the wrong body, or indeed be given ANY medical interventions in that regard.
“Why would the women in my family vote for indy if it deprives them of securities they have enjoyed for decades.
They would be voting to DEPRIVE themselves of rights ,not enjoy more. Dont think they are that dim.”
But they’re not voting for the SNP, in an independence referendum they’ll be voting for independence or not.
As for security do you honestly think anyone will have it nevermind women if we remain in this union by not voting for independence.
Secondly in a independent Scotland the other parties would need to up their game including the SNP, who’s to say they’d be in government in a independent Scotland.
As I said above I don’t agree with the SNP on this, but the SNP are not the independence movement they’re merely the vehicle to it for now.
Couldn’t wait until tomorrow, telephone banking is a great thing.
SNP are tonight, two members down.
I think we’ve got enough astroturf for a five-a-side game now.
Since Stewart Macdonald won with a 9000 majority and Alyn Smyth the same, with only 150 invalid papers, maybe Rev Stu’s reach isn’t what he thought it was.
Glamaig @7:33
Why? – did the Wings party lose to the SNP in those seats? or was he advocating people tactically vote to oust the SNP?
Jesus – you’re an idiot.
He advocated people vote for Johann Lamont in Glasgow South and spoil their papers in Stirling – idiot.
I’ve wanted independence all my life, nothing politically has ever been more important to me, That said I agree with everything Stu says, we need to put a stop to this nonsense we need to fight this tooth and nail and stop pandering to these people, they have all the rights they need.
But surely standing up to the trans bullies doesn’t have to mean giving up on independence when we’re so close and if we lose now we’ll never get this close again.
I have 2 daughters & 2 Grand-Daughters believe me I’m on the side of womans rights but I still believe in spite of this proposed legislation they still have a far better future in an independent Scotland.
It looks like self I’d will be on it’s way anyway rightly or wrongly.
In a few years I can see only Scotland and maybe North Korea being the only exceptions.
And Scotland still part of the UK with rest of UK happily self identifying.
Such is the fucked up history of Scotland
a reminder from an independent country.
FIRST gain independence, with an omnibus party.
SECOND squabble.
Your’ doing it bassackward.
“wegie42 says:
18 December, 2019 at 1:55 pm
Sorry but this is a distraction we can do without. I am sure there may be issues affecting a minority of people in Scotland, but sorry, Independence trumps this issue”
This is not affecting a minority its affecting 50% of the population ie woman
“cynicalHighlander says:
18 December, 2019 at 3:15 pm
NS isn’t a leader she is a follower of fashion imo. So glad I’m not a member anymore. Without the support of 52% of the population comprising women Indy is dead in the water.”
Yip it sure is, men on these posts saying ignore it/not an
issue/independence is more important – please take note at how seriously we woman regard this matter, hope you decide to fill out the government’s consultation in support of woman
“Bob Mack says:
It means a lot to them as women to protect the rights they have won and to pass those rights on to my gradaughters.”
Yip totally agree, if the choice comes down to protecting future woman and girls or independence at the cost of them, then the last 30 odd years of my life fighting for independence can be let go in a second, and I so so never thought that could happen
“Balaaargh says:
Online cry-bullies aren’t as strong and brave as they like to make out.”
yes they are, that’s the problem, these Trans Activists have managed to be strong enough to get MP chucked out, for a exaggeration (which he shouldn’t have done), while they run riot with absolute horrible racism,
they have got the legislation to this point, nobody will help us as they will be branded transphobic, this is now one step away from law, when most women don’t realise it actually happening, literally this is actually going to be passed and destroy the SNP
“Republicofscotland says:
18 December, 2019 at 4:30 pm
This is a very contenious issue, and I agree with you in the most part. However independence must be front and centre, laws can be repealed, independence is forever.”
Laws can be repealed, pray tell me how many girls/woman are you willing to sacrifice for independence, that’s literally what your saying, lets just not bother trying to prevent this, independence is more important.
tell me, if this leads to, and it will, pedofiles geting 2 minutes access to children, which will lead to 8 year old girl, dealing with the fact that her hymen has been broken, because we allowed unfettered access for pedofiles to children
really would you choose that, as well as all the innocence that is stripped from her, she will never get to give that, slightly painful, gift to her first love
so is it 1 child to suffer that, or 10, or 20, before it gets repealed… really do you really think that’s acceptable cost to pay for independence????
Glamaig 7:47
Prove it
Congratulations to
https://www.yes.scot/
for breaking the 500,000 signature barrier
Glamaig says:
18 December, 2019 at 7:47 pm
“He advocated people vote for Johann Lamont in Glasgow South and spoil their papers in Stirling – idiot”
Your are lying and spouting utter rubbish. Can I assume you are one of the concerted attack group on twitter?
He actually posted that; “For the avoidance of doubt, if he lived in Scotland, he would vote SNP everywhere. Except those two seats, where he would exercise his personal choice.”
The First Minister’s Independence Petition has just reached the 500,000 Signature Mark.
And the Tories who will now go over 70 years since they last had a majority in Scotland say there is
No appetite to expel the corruption that is Westminster from controlling our country.
https://www.yes.scot/
“Laws can be repealed, pray tell me how many girls/woman are you willing to sacrifice for independence, that’s literally what your saying, lets just not bother trying to prevent this, independence is more important.”
Two can play at that game tell that to the tens of thousands of people who’ve died under austerity in this union. Or the soon to be hundreds of thousands who’ll die if we don’t achieve independence.
http://calumslist.org
I’m not on Twitter, but I check your feed regularly. I’m actually surprised it took the TRAs this long to get you banned, particularly as Twitter seems to be very supportive of their questionable agenda.
I wonder if the SNP Bad mob will be gunning for GRA reform with the same enthusiasm that holed OBFA below the waterline. If not, that might tell its own story.
I also wonder whether we might see the Scottish Government taken to court by one of its own MPs. Ms Cherry is formidable. Crossing her may prove to be a mistake.
They’re gunning for the @RevStu account now…
As for security do you honestly think anyone will have it nevermind women if we remain in this union by not voting for independence.
Picture this scenario – there’s an independence referendum and the SNP and Greens have voted through GRA 2 allowing men to Self ID as women. Uproar – as women and girls encounter the reality on the ground.
The Tories run a campaign for the union after repealing the GRA and guarantee women and girls rights e.g. to single sex spaces as enshrined in the Equality Act.
Who do the women and their partners and children vote for?
The Named Person Scheme was a well-intentioned mess from start to finish – it was “not according to law” but the Scot Govt and SNPers wouldn’t listen to those who warned it breached human rights laws. Eg Article 8.
So, it’s not always as simple as the Scot Govt legislation is well thought of or not in Scotland, it must be compliant with the law.
Regarding the transgender issues, again attention must also be paid to human rights rulings at the ECHR. So Scots Law again, Scot Parliament legislation must be in compliance with Human Rights jurisprudence.
(I don’t wish to appear to be defending the Scot Govt but, I try to be fair in my criticisms of them).
eg A.P., Garçon and Nicot v. France (application
nos. 79885/12, 52471/13 and 52596/13)
http://eclj.org/family/echr/towards-a-fundamental-right-to-choose-ones-sex
Unionist trolls out in force I see. I don’t recognise at least half of the ‘outraged ex SNP voters’ posting here.
Less than 1% of the population are going to be affected by all this trans pish, whichever side of the self-ID debate you are on. It is is being blatantly used as a device to attack and damage the SNP, Scotland’s only roadworthy vehicle for independence.
The good news is, Wings is now totally discredited. If it wasn’t the mainstream SNPBaaaaaaaaaaad media would be all over this like a rash.
Scotsrenewables
re unionist t**ls – well, if the cap fits.
secondly – ‘It is being blatantly used as a device to attack and damage the SNP,’ – Yes, it is, by the loony minority in the SNP!!
Third – if WoS is so discredited – why are you here?
“Picture this scenario – there’s an independence referendum and the SNP and Greens have voted through GRA 2 allowing men to Self ID as women. Uproar – as women and girls encounter the reality on the ground.”
Ah scenarios, weve all got them.
Picture this one we persevere until we win independence in 2020 then we vote out the SNP in 2021 if they don’t sort it out.
Lets all go and live with Boris,he will save us!
Well done Stu, I’m 100% behind you on this one and I am glad to hear of your resolve to keep shining the light on this issue.
Keep up the good work!
From the script of Mel Brooks’ film HIGH ANXIETY:
[Fellow analysts, psychiatrists……psychologists and laypeople…
today I would like to discuss some of the lesser known aspects of Psychobiological Therapy.
Years ago, psychology was akin to witchcraft.
but some of these great people,
these giants behind me…(pointing to photos of psychiatrists Freud, Jung, Adler)
gave us a nice living.]
AND STILL ARE, THANKS TO THE CREDULOUS!
@ republicofscotland – only a fool would vote to give up their human rights. I don’t believe the majority of Scottish women are fools.
But I guess you are feeling lucky.
Actual Transsexual @ 5.49
Thanks for speaking up my friend..
As I’ve said before there aren’t many Women who haven’t came across a Trans Woman and mainly because they are so few in number, in a public toilet in the Cities.
I don’t know anyone who has ever,ever found them to be anything other than Decent human beings.
As you have said, to live fully as a Woman takes commitment and no Trans person would do it lightly.
I don’t know anyone who has a problem with Trans People and I certainly don’t.
It’s a hard road there’re walking and we must all see that from a stand point of basic humanity.
As you have said the problem here with the GRA Reform is opening the door to giving legal cover to actual predators.
EG
As I understand it…. The most dangerous time for a Woman is within the first YEAR of leaving an abusive relationship.
Some EX partners will go to extraordinary lenths to harm or menace them. (there are laws against this of course but these types of men can no more understand those laws than Dogs understand the Dangerous Dog Act and they care much less )
Then along come this lot and suggest a “Self Declaration” to Access All Areas in under 6 months ….
As if that wasnt bad enough,no over sight from medical professionals must be manna from heaven to the perverts who spend a great deal of time and effort indulging their perversion, and from necessity do read and understand the Law.
But women needn’t worry….. It will be an offence to make a False Declaration….. Seriously!!!
They are also painting a Target on Trans Peoples back with this stuff because it’s risking a backlash to the acceptance of the GRA that we already have in place… It will only take a few high profile incidents which are sure to happen.
Stuart. You need to refresh WoS. Take a step back, look at what is ahead that is different to what has gone on before and refresh this blog. Change its layout to allow focus away from the many diversion about to be dumped on us. Nothing radical but with intent.
@ ScotsRenewables at 8.32
Less than 1% will gain any direct advantage* from “all this trans pish”; more than 50% will be affected.
I presume you’re a man.
*indirect advantage goes to those who will hugely benefit financially eg from the sale of puberty blockers.
“Only a fool would vote to give up their human rights. I don’t believe the majority of Scottish women are fools.”
“But I guess you are feeling lucky.”
I’m not asking anyone to give up their Human Rights, and I certainly don’t think women are fools. But please tell how keeping Scotland chained to this unfit union, which will probably ditch the Human Rights Act will help not just women, but everyone else.
https://www.parliament.uk/business/lords/media-centre/house-of-lords-media-notices/2019/january-2019/human-rights-act-is-not-safe-after-brexit/
As for feeling lucky, I, we, are lucky to have a chance to escape this unfit union, if we see the bigger picture.
Capella
It’s no only those who are born female that have human rights though.
Also, no single group, such as those born female and who are happy about that, have greater human rights than any other group of persons.
The Scot Govt MUST comply with human rights law. The UK, including Scotland is signed up to the international legally binding European Convention on Human Rights etc. (Until the Tories abolish human rights).
IF the SNP are legislating to comply with that law, and you don’t like that, blame the Human Rights laws, no the SNP Scot Govt.
However, whether the Scot Govt are going further than the law requires to pander to the trans lobby, and whether trans activists within the SNP are fighting dirty, is a debate I’m no getting into. I’ll leave that to youse on here.
Stu is no a legal expert on human rights law; he’s a blogger / journalist / political campaigner.
Republicofscotland says:
18 December, 2019 at 8:46 pm
“Picture this one we persevere until we win independence in 2020 then we vote out the SNP in 2021 if they don’t sort it out.”
I don’t think you have grasped the way it works.
Those of us who support women’s rights were told to shut during the GE.
We will be told to shut up during Indyref2.
We will be told to shut up for the first election in the new parliament elections.
We will told to shut up in the next onre to keep the SNP in power.
While this is going on, woman & girls will be assualted or r-p-d or murdered as a result of allowing men into females safe spaces. Lesbians will called transphobic for not wanting to sleep with transwomen. People will be sacked for speaking up for women’s rights.
Of course by the 3rd election they will be telling us that allowing men in women’s spaces has been the norm for years now.
@ Republicofscotland – But please tell how keeping Scotland chained to this unfit union, which will probably ditch the Human Rights Act will help not just women, but everyone else
Are you so naive as to imagine that the unionists are not weaponising this issue?
All they have to do is win a vote. Just like they won the election last week by portraying the oppositon as feckless wokeys, with full connivance of the media, they will have no difficulty in highlighting the dangers to women and girls which the SNP and Greens bring about with this policy.
This is such an obvious way of discrediting the SNP it wouldn’t surprise me if it is unionist plants who are pushing it.
The people who are against this nonsense have my support,but to give up the independence of our country by not voting YES or for the vehicle that will take us there is madness.
Members of the SNP can question policy at branch and directly with their MSPs and leave them in no doubt of the strength of feeling on this issue.
I’ve seen figures saying trans individuals make up 0.02% of the population so ffs let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater……
Out of intetest how many people identity as trans in scotland?
Osakisushi @8:13
He said it on twitter. You now can’t see his tweets but you can see the replies.
I’m all for fair play, but it rarely wins against this sort of cowardly opposition.
If Cameron & co have their addresses in the public domain, victims can lay blame at the right door.
Out the woke.
@ Tony Hay
See my reply to ScotsRenewables at 9.22.
Part of what makes this so utterly enraging to me is that a tiny percentage of the population who already have rights are being used (because as has been pointed out, in general they themselves just want a quiet life, and don’t cause trouble) by those with who knows what ulterior motives (I can think of several, including undermining independence) in a way which will affect half the population.
That some people posting here (all men, as far as I can tell, but they will surely have female friends and relations) appear to think this collateral damage to women is not an important and urgent issue has me absolutely beelin’.
Women’s rights are far more important than Independence.
If you don’t agree with that then you are probably male and should be ashamed of yourself.
George Wood
Completely agree,
I am getting a bad feeling that the enemies of Scotlands independence are simply lying in wait, keeping their powder dry, waiting, ready to strike at our cause using this gender denying pish as their ammunition.
It could kill us – and anyone who thinks otherwise isn’t paying attention.
I recall a scene from Braveheart – something about keeping your wits….
Hark the Herald yesterday.
Minister admits some trans rights reforms may have gone too far, as consultation launched on gender
http://archive.is/ij7uc
@ Tony Hay let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater
Quite. Let’s tell the SNP and the Scottish government that this issue can wait till after independence. Let’s see how they respond. I’ve contacted them 4 times about this and had no response whatever, not even an acknowledgement. That only leaves direct action of some sort.
A referendum on trans-gender self-identity coming up soon then?
Today, an UK employment tribunal judge ruled that the belief that biological sex is immutable, and that it is impossible to change one’s sex, is “incompatible with human dignity and fundamental rights of others.
In England you can be sacked for stating a scientific truth.
http://archive.md/Qvw16
A Jewish Labour Supporter was so incensed by McIntosh’s assertion he felt compelled to write and set the record straight. He wrote:
“McIntosh is a politician and unfortunately, he is politicizing antisemitism for his own benefit – he obviously thinks there are votes in playing this issue from within the Jewish community and this reflects very badly on him. There is absolutely no substance to this outrageous personal attack on the First Minister who has shown during his time in office an admirable commitment to understanding issues within this community and listening to concerns. He has addressed open meetings of the Jewish community not once but twice and took questions on any subject from any member of the audience. He has visited community organizations and one of his Ministers, Fergus Ewing, spent an entire evening with the youth of our community listening to a programme on racism, antisemitism and prejudice. If McIntosh was encouraged to take this stance by any party or organization within the Jewish community he has acted with utter stupidity. If he thought accusing the elected head of the Scottish Government of downplaying antisemitism would benefit the Jewish community he is astonishingly ignorant of grassroots opinion within our community. He should be ashamed of his conduct and he will not get my vote.”
https://caltonjock.com/2015/04/13/one-time-blue-eyed-boy-of-the-labour-party-in-scotland-is-ken-mcintosh-the-first-ever-rothschild-zionist-presiding-officer-of-the-scottish-parliament-at-holyrood-check-his-record-and-worry/
@crazycat (10.11) –
I hear you loud and clear, as do many other men here. (Some of whom are surely lurkers – this is time for you to speak up chaps!)
It’s not for me to point the finger but some guys on this thread are, whether by ignorance or design, making it very difficult for the rest of us to show support without being made to feel treacherous and/or paranoid.
I don’t know how paranoid I am (who could?) but I know I’m not a ‘tractor’ when it comes to indy. This GRA/TRA/TERF shitery presents a ‘clear and present danger’ to the whole independence movement.
Let me repeat that using other words…
It is an existential threat to the indy movement and, therefore, to independence itself.
Anyone brushing it aside as an ‘irrelevance’ or – worse – an ‘annoyance’, is not helping.
Over on @RevStu there is an unfolding series of tweets concerning a legal case, with snippets of the judgements etc. I’m not even going to attempt to summarise wtf it’s all about because I can’t make head nor tail of it, but it has all the ingredients which have dominated this thread. The very same issues which brought WOS Twitter down.
Like it or not, a lot of us are going to have to pick a side, cause this isn’t going to disappear any time soon.
FWIW, I pick the women & girls’ groups who have been so shabbily treated by the Scottish Govt. And Rev Stu has consistently been on their side.
A father of two girls, I’m not voting SNP again until this is dropped. Indy or not. Too fundamental.
George wood…1012hrs
What are the women’s rights you think are being taken away ?
Capella 1039hrs…employment tribunal judges decision
Please can you explain which part of the judges reasoning you think is incorrect
Ian brotherhood1052hrs…
There is no clear and present danger to the independence movement
People on the whole trust the experts to reach a good decision about gender recognition self ID
People on the whole know that it is their vote that will determine Scottish independence
We don’t do legislation by vote anymore because too many innocent people were lynched
@Republicofscotland
You are so sure of your position answer this “What is a woman?”
George Wood 9.36pm
I support women’s rights too
I also support men’s rights
And I support transgender rights
What is your professional expertise in gender recognition ?
Capella…what is your professional expertise in gender recognition ?
I have none
Stuart McKay at 3.06 pm sums up this whole arguement/ discussion, no other discorse needed, in a nutshell, i am sick and tired of this utter rubbish, guys / women with cocks and balls are men, end of.
Worst piece of pc bullshit legislation ever to be discussed never mind acted on.
SNP get a fucking grip and consider how women feel about this pathetic and repulsive idea, i dont have children but i sure as fuck would not accept any man in my female childs space without her total consent, not to mention my consent.
If this tiny minority of fucked up self serving tossers are allowed to control this agenda we really need to take a long hard look at our society, if this starts to get past the pathetic world of twitter and facebook and enters mainstreem media Ido believe these idiots will be found out, that is my only hope on this whole sorry affair
Cynicalhighlander…you asked the question earlier today
“what is a woman”
I see you are asking someone else this question 1105hrs
A woman is an adult female
But that has nothing to do with gender recognition
A man can never be a woman he doesn’t have a uterus to give birth
But a man can be treated as if they are a woman
That is what gender recognition is all about
Treating a man as a woman if he feels like a woman and wants to be treated like a woman
Likewise a woman can never provide the sperm ads a man would so can never father a child
But if a woman wants to be treated as a man is it too much to do so ?
I don’t think it is
There are many many women that have transgendered to being a man
This is NOT just about men transgendering to be a woman but to read this blog and the whole discussion of this subject on social media you would think it is only men to women
If I may lob in a quick PS to my response to crazycat…
I reported Cameron Archibald earlier for a tweet he posted this morning:
is illustrated by a GIF of Harry Enfield’s ‘Loadsamoney’ character dancing to a ‘LOL’ graphic.
From the options available I selected ‘targeted harrassment’ as the root cause of my complaint.
Right now, Rev Stu, WOS and, by extension, us, are in the equivalent of social-media ‘stocks’, being bombarded with all sorts of unmentionables by a coterie of entitled, well-connected entryists who have been emboldened by the WOS Twitter take-down.
I suggest that we play them at their own game.
Many of us have been around Twitter, FB, this place, and all manner of other platforms, long before these characters were capable of growing beards let alone sporting them as signifiers.
I’m no lawyer, but Archibald’s tweet appears to be slanderous. If it was directed at me I’d certainly consider it as such. And if I had the resources I’d certainly be considering some kind of legal action.
Let’s give them a taste of their own medicine – report each and every tweet or FB comment which traduces Stuart Campbell and/or this place. Because when they do that they’re really having a go at us. All of us. Anyone who contributes to WOS, be it financially or otherwise, is being hammered ‘out there’. The @RevStu account is now being attacked. How long before they set their sights on this place?
That’s another from Archibald’s thread, in response to the one above:
https://twitter.com/cstross/status/1206871864917839873
There’s no need for any of us to descend to the same level, but can we really afford to ignore this?
Andrew Gordon 1114hrs
Your post is like the stories from the 1950s
Back then people used to write letters to the newspapers that sounded just like your post at 114
Only it was gray people back then
Not transgender
Back then when gay people were beaten up , imprisoned , sacked from their jobs , evicted from their homes and treated as outcasts sometimes sent away to be educated out of being gay, as if it was something they had learned to be many gay people committed suicide because of such persecution
Nearly 60% of transgender people attempt suicide bee cause of persecution
I’m sure you don’t mean people any harm
But don’t you think we should try and help transgender have a happy life
One that doesn’t cause any harm to themselves or to others
Ian brotherhood…don’t you think the anonymity gifted by twitter and WOS etc encourages bad behaviour
I always put my name to my opinions
Because I believe in them and I’m prepared to defend them
Unlike so many folk who hide behind false names
@ Terry Callachan – humans have been recognising gender for at least 40 million years, other species for c 4 billion. We can recognise gender without the aid of a speculum.
@ Ian Brotherhood
Thanks (x 2).
@Terry callachan
Thanks at last someone has answered correctly an ‘adult human female’ and females don’t have penises but the trans brigade call theirs womans dicks. Does not compute in any language so a man cannot under any circimstance call themselves a woman which GRA as proposed does.
@Terry –
Yes, anonymity encourages bad behaviour.
That’s why burglars wear balaclavas, masks, and other forms of disguise.
And the salient point is?
Hateful conduct
Swearing
Calling someone a cunt
To be honest I disapprove
I recall that for a while I had someone swear at me and use foul abusive language and eventually after months of it,
it got the better of my judgement and I started to send the same language back to them
Know what ?
They didn’t like it and complained !!
It’s not necessary to use swear words or insults is it ?
Capella…speculum is irrelevant to the point made
But that’s why you avoid the point made
Ian brotherhood…you just made it
@ Terry callachan
Of course there are women who have transitioned. They are not the ones wanting access to women’s safe spaces and thereby opening the door to anyone who self-identifies, without the need for a diagnosis of dysphoria – that’s the proposal.
You said
apparently oblivious to the fact that it is “harm to others” that is the concern.
Perhaps you could read this :
http://mrkhvoice.com/index.php/2019/12/18/what-is-dignity/
for a bit of insight into the harm that is already being caused.
(If I ever meet you I will explain why I use a pseudonym on here; it’s too long to post.)
Cynicalhighlander…transgender people want to be recognised as being the gender they choose
It’s not all about penises
What do you think of the women who want to be recognised as men ?
Crazycat 1148…
So you have no objection to women who transgender to a man
using men’s facilities ?
@ Terry Callachan
Gender recognition – Ask yourself how youd describe procreation to an alien visitor. Simple as that
False names – i dont go by my real name because its not the right wing who are doxxing people and trying to get then fired for fucking wrongthink
Crazycat….the link you posted is someone writing their opinion of a court judgement
Did she really start crying when she read it ?
Because of fear that it will put women across the world at risk ?
And you cite this as evidence
Come on be realistic
Her opinion is not weighty evidence it’s not backed by anything other than her opinion
@ Terry callachan
That’s not up to me since I don’t use those myself.
Transmen in men’s spaces are
a) not likely to cause any problems themselves and
b) not likely to followed into those facilities by trouble-makers.
If the problem for transwomen is male behaviour in men’s facilities, the solution is to persuade men to behave better, not yet again tell (not ask or persuade) women to accommodate and “be nice” regardless of the effect on us.
Joe 1155…I don’t speak to aliens …I’m in my sixties maybe in a decade or two I will
So I may get back to you then
Crazycat…can you tell me the women’s spaces you fear will be compromised
For anybody who thinks this GRA nonsense is a unionist plot – its coming in many countries also. Further, if it was just a SNP and Green thing the britnat media could have DESTROYED them for it before the election. It didnt. I wonder why?
@ Terry Callachan
That was very obtuse of you. Not interested in thought expirements that might put some perspective on the subject? Why not?
@Terry Callahan
Women don’t rape men but men frequently rape women and young girls because of testosterone levels.
@ Terry callachan
Claire Graham was not crying because of a fear that women would be put at risk – she was crying because she, as an intersex person, is sick and tired of being misrepresented and dehumanized, along with other intersex individuals by people trying to deny biological reality.
I referred you to her as an example of harm being done to others; she’s written a lot more on the subject, but it doesn’t look as if you’d be interested in that either.
Transwomen are men. Transmen are women. Anything else is delusional mental illness. Oh I forgot, it’s no longer a mental disorder: Ok remove nhs funding for meds and surgery then.
So is Terry callachan your real name?
You are clearly ill informed about this issue. Read the Wings article written by Graham Linehan on the War against Women. Read also the BTL comments and many links to other sources of information. That will save you having to post an endless stream of questions here.
This site has been taken over by trans gender rights of late. I would not for a minute wish to belittle this for those affected but why on earth is a major political blog so consumed by the rights and wrongs of this issue? it is not as if it has any bearing on what should matter most which is the quest for independence. This must really piss off any new readers who are looking for a bit of meat on the bones of the independence argument.
For what it is worth the SG are tackling a thorny issue and I trust them to to take all opinions and sensibilities into account. The final result will inevitably not satisfy everyone but for god’s sake can we move on and address what should be uppermost in everybody’s mind, which is how to rid ourselves of the theft and corruption of Westminster. All else pales into insignificance and can be dealt with in the fullness of time in an independent Scotland. Get our priorities right!
@ Terry callachan
This is going to have to be my last response to you tonight because I need to go to bed in order to be up early tomorrow to staff our Yes hub.
Are you really seriously not able to work out what women’s spaces need to be single sex?
How about:
– Women’s refuges
– Prisons
– Hospital wards (there’s been a big increase in sexual assaults where mixed-sex wards have been introduced)
– Anywhere where women (and girls) might be partially or completely undressed such as changing rooms in sports centres or shops
– Toilets (and don’t start about cubicles; I’ve recently seen a picture of a notice asking men to shut the door while using cubicles – there’s also the issue of poor aim, which so many men seem to suffer from; women then have to use the seats) of which there is usually inadequate provision anyway
just for starters.
Good night.
@ Elmac
The progressive halfwits we call a Scottish government are acting very totalitarian and our womenfolk might have their rights hurt as a result. No, all our rights might be hurt as we may be unable to criticise. Thats important. You know as in ‘really important’.
Besides the womens rights issue im simply not being told that black is white and up is down and being legally compelled to agree. Fuck that.
@Ian Brotherhood
Thanks from me too.
Terry callachan says:
“What are the women’s rights you think are being taken away?”
Privacy, dignity and safety in places and services reserved for our sex. Sport, prizes, scholarships etc. reserved for our sex.
“Please can you explain which part of the judge’s reasoning you think is incorrect?”
The Forstater judgment is horrifying. An employment tribunal judge who doesn’t understand the difference between sex and gender.
Sex is binary – male or female. People with intersex conditions belong predominately to one sex or the other. They are not transgender. Gender is a social construct, often based on outdated sexist stereotypes.
Gender theory also attacks the rights of gay people, as it denies the validity of same-sex attraction.
This judge has decided that stating a biological fact – that non-one can really change sex – is bigotry and such a person deserves to lose their job. Absolutely appalling.
one i cant return to something i have never voted for, and labour in Scotland where always to the right, i hope we have health pluralist independent democracy where choice covers the full range,
Elmac says “This site has been taken over by trans gender rights of late” your right this i fear stems from this site host losing his court case , and to my mind it seems he has his own personal agenda ,wanting to have his own candidates at the Scottish election, please return this site to its early days and get a grip
Joe @ 12.22
I don’t normally reply to trolls. The SG are not half wits, nor corrupt, unlike Westminster. GRA is nothing whatsoever to do with freeing Scotland from the clutches of a despicable bloodsucking “union”. As I said lets concentrate on the number one priority and obtain independence ASAP.
Terry Callachan 12.01
…can you tell me the women’s spaces you fear will be compromised
The toilets in Fife supermarkets maybe.
http://archive.is/EEouR
You’re well behind this story if you’re still thinking ‘will be’.
Meet some of his ilk.
Including one who identifies as a five-year-old girl
https://twitter.com/historywoman/status/1191453438825181186
Joe @ 12:02 am
“I wonder why?”
The Conservative Government’s consultation ended in October 2018.
Chances are Westminster will get a new Gender Recognition Act done before Scotland.
Hey Joe, your Brodie’s showing.
I can assure anyone here that I crave independence for my country as much if not MORE than some others , but I want a government who listens to US the electorate and who takes cognizance of the peoples fears and concerns , not some cabal of super know betters , this is only the start of deluded wokeist policies what comes next
To the few on here who state that independence is more important than the protection of our womenfolks rights I can assure you that without the support and votes of our womenfolk there will be NO independence , and who will have caused this catastrophe ( mmm let me think ) yes the SNP and their BLATANT ignorance and deliberate stupidity in reintroducing this vile policy that is uniformly detested by the majority of voters
I asked in an earlier post just why have the SNP chosen this exact moment to reintroduce this consultation , the sensible thing would have been to pause and delay the consultation and FOCUS on the MORE important status of independence for our country and citizens , ALL of our citizens ,instead of creating this division which only helps the opposition
Governments, not just the Scottish Government, are changing their current legislation because the World Health Organisation’s diagnostic guidelines will no longer be describing gender nonconformity as a “mental disorder”. Governments have until 2022 to bring in new legislation because that is the year when the new classification is published.
Besides the quite obvious improprieties, like biological men being women’s world champions of anything, and male perverts and rapists being incarcerated in women’s prisons…
What rankles me frankly is that progress on the Independence front has been painfully slow, even glacial in it’s progress, we have squandered one open goal after another, pursued a bizarre and unfathomable strategy in reaction to Brexit, with YES supporters denied any insight into what the enigmatic SNP was planning… and yet, out of nowhere, we have a Trans lobby deeply embedded in the SNP and agitating the deselection of pro-Indy champions like Joanna Cherry, whilst promoting with notable success judging by the FM having the time and inclination to go on their protest marches but not on YES marches, and advocating policy which a huge proportion of 50% of the voting electorate, (is it still permissible to call them women???) find threatening, and as wilfully unscientific and delusional as creationism.
The louder the protest, the stronger the influence and these well embedded Trans Rights lobbyists seem to revel in.
Well SNP, if you have the time and leisure to embrace this abstract interpretation of science at the behest of weirdo misogynists running around threatening women with pink baseball bats, it strikes me you can stop the infuriating prevarication and start answering my questions about how and why Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty is being ignored and sidelined.
Terribly sorry if asking the question rocks the fucking boat, but time marches on and if ever there was boat pure begging to be rocked…
I’m not even an anti-Trans person… frankly, I’m pretty relaxed about it, but if I was transsexual and struggling to reconcile such an existential conflict in my identity as a person, this aggressive, sinister and threatening manifestation of misogynistic rage and hatred would make me sick. It promises to do nothing but undo decades of progress and acceptance of gay rights, women’s rights, equality and tolerance. Have a word with yourself Trans Lobby. You’re embarrassing, and threatening to undo the work of some very brave people who spent decades fighting derision, stigma, intolerance, actual homophobia of the punch in the face variety, and to make the world a safer place more tolerant and liberal towards people’s sexual proclivities.
I have to wonder if the Trans Lobby has done the math, and worked out the consequences if Scottish Independence is sunk by their agenda for self ID and deconstruction of women’s rights alienating the entire female population. Precisely how do you think that’s going to further your wider acceptance in society?
The SNP should do the maths also…
Also of great concern regarding the GRA:
The request that trans people should be allowed to change their birth certificate makes that certificate a waste of time – if you can just change the details at will, it is no longer an ‘absolute proof’ of who you are. The certificate is used for official things, but if you can just decide to change your sex, date of birth, (weight??) etc, it’s a bit pointless having it.
The health issues – aside from medical science is not advanced enough to safely and completely change someone’s sex, (transsexuals quite rightly go through a process to ensure there is no other option before undergoing medical treatment and surgery. But the GRA isn’t about transsexuals) – how can the medical profession treat you properly for anything if they don’t know your actual sex? Everything from bone density, musculature, to reproductive parts (primary, secondary and tertiary sexual characteristics) – the last cervical smear letter I got stated that if you are trans, you don’t need one,,, really?! The fact that they need to mention this implies a certain delusion aspect, that trans people do not, or cannot, accept their own bodies. So,why is the NHS recording trans women as people to get a letter for a smear test when they will never need one? They need a new category, not shoe horned into another that does not fit. Breast cancer is something anyone can get – just more likely women will get it (by a large margin), but you’ll need the larger fleshy bits before you can go through the torture of screening. I just think trans people are putting their own health in jeopardy by wanting to be absolutely defined as the sex of their choice.
Self-hate – I cannot in any conscience advocate anyone hating themselves or their own bodies. We all dislike or are unhappy with some part of our bodies or personality, or have been at some point in our lives. We are all individuals and are all different, and sometimes can see some aspect of ourselves as unsatisfactory in comparison with other people – the outcome is that most people learn to live with it, or even become happy with it, accepting ourselves as we are, it’s the way things are. Some may look to plastic surgery when they can’t accept. What if you hate your whole reproductive system and can’t accept it? I do not accept the phrase ‘born in the wrong body’ – your body is what it is; disabled, whole, warped, healthy, ailed, it’s what you have. It’s whether you can accept what you have or not – accepting yourself as you are is (mentally) healthy. Not accepting yourself is not healthy. Telling children they are allowed to hate themselves is possibly child abuse.
Gender stereotypes – this is one of the bizarre counterintuitive aspects of the proposed GRA – what exactly is this gender stereotype that I need to conform to so that a trans person can prove they are living their life as that gender? The SNP have claimed they want a fairer and more equal society – how is strengthening gender stereotypes making anything more equal? To make this rational, we would all have to declare our gender and explain how we are conforming to this unspecified stereotyping. Do I need to start wearing dresses and high heels to prove I’m a woman. Well, they can fuck right off, many women fought and gave their lives to allow me a certain amount of freedom to not make myself vulnerable and not conform and not have children, because I CHOOSE these things, not because my husband ALLOWS it. Only a few decades ago it was written in law, that as a woman you were basically owned as a possession if you married. And we are already going backwards! Aside from that, how can it benefit trans people to have stronger gender stereotypes? Their dissatisfaction with their bodies and themselves can only increase the greater the divide surely? I want to be a PERSON in most social situations, including work, I do not want to be defined by gender but by ability etc – can we not all aspire to that instead of yearning after that which doesn’t or should not exist.
I can only see the GRA as harming society as a whole, and mainly it will cause harm to vulnerable people – trans people themselves.
@ Contrary
Well said. Your point on gender stereo types was something I was thinking about also.
The word ‘delusion’ that you used is key
@ Breeks
The thing is that what we are dealing with isnt just trans activists. Its much deeper than that. Go look up the Jordan Peterson saga in Canada on this and it will start to illuminate whats going on
@ mr thms
Ah ok. Thank god for that. Nothing to worry about now since its not just the SG
@ reluctant nationalist
Im not sure what you mean by Brodie. Cheers
Breeks at 0552am,
Totally agree with evrry word of your post.
In particular, your questions on the slow progress towards independence – for example, the election result was last Friday, so have the Scotgov requested a section 30 yet? NO. Yet again, it looks like they are kicking it all into the long grass. Yet again, they are handed the initiaitive on a plate by the Scots voters, and off they go, to dither, dither and delay.
In particular however, your point about hard won gay rights under threat from these trans extremists really bothers me.
Something not right about all of this. It stinks to high heaven, all of it.
Oh and on the subject of yest again kicking independence into the long grass, here’s a story from The National today;
NICOLA Sturgeon is set to publish her argument for indyref2 next year
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18110524.sturgeon-lays-case-scottish-independence-referendum/
WHY wait until next year – note that NO actual date is given, so it could be June, or August, we do not know. Why not today. NOW???
What happened to the demand for a section 30, as PROMISED by Sturgeon?? Why the delay, why not just get on with things??
Yet again the SNP get a mandate then go back to business as freaking usual.
Their is NO good reason for such delay or dithering. None.
If this is as it seems, then Nicola Sturgeon really needs booted out, and a REAL ACTUAL leader who wants independence put in her place. Enough of this. Enough.
Breeks 5.52 ditto ditto ditto
Who will answer this question for me. Why is this being portrayed as an SNP only issue? So many comments.
“I’ll be voting for anyone but the SNP 1 & 2 if this goes ahead”
“I’ve cancelled my membership and so has the wife, that’s two fewer votes they’ll be getting”
“I’ve supported Independence for 50 Years but this is the last straw, no more SNP votes from me”
What a load of shite, every party in Scotland supports reform of the GRA, the Greens, the Lib Dems and Labour are even more enthusiastic to do away with the current rules and allow self I.D. of trans people. Do they intend to give up voting altogether then?
So I’ll ask once more, why is this being portrayed as an SNP only issue?
This forum seems filled with venom directed at a draft consultative document if you don’t like it and provided that some of you aren’t either trolls plants or SIU or even 77rs then respond with your thoughts speak to your MSP etc.
If you believe as some of you seem to indicate this is an SNP conspiracy to rob women if their rights again there are avenues direct to the FM to address this.
I must say the hyperbole on here is reminiscent of a Daily Mail readership and the issue itself seems at odds with the situation our country faces at this particular time especially given what is at stake it also worries me that the contributions seem almost entirely anti SG in regard to a consultation. Maybe I’m just tired of anti SG bullshit maybe just an old Woke whatever the fuck that is,.
High time we exposed the drivers of this insanity so that ordinary SNP members can be aware of, and can interact with protagonists of this nonsense.
I for one, and there are many many like me, am heart and soul sick to the back teeth hearing about how these weirdos want to turn society upside down.
And if we don’t change tack, ,and I jest not,it may well be that the next arguments will be about the right to have consensual sex with your dog or your donkey enshrined in Law. Currently this practice is illegal but one can see how in the minds of the disturbed it is a burning injustice.
SNP – every Trans vote counts. The party for Trannies.
And maybe we can expect Nicola (s) to attend conference or Parliament with a big Dildo strapped to her to show solidarity.
Well with the chamber all being composed of self ID’ers that’s a good question.
Worth a read:
http://www.realwomenofcanada.ca/deceit-and-lies-we-have-been-told-on-homosexuality-reality/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerscruton/2014/05/20/human-rights-nonsense-on-stilts/#424ff6f85d29
The sovereign independence of the Scottish people, the visceral and actual ‘human right’ with which the SNP ought to be concerned. All the rest is psychobabble.
I’ve debated with myself whether to get involved with this or not.
Surely some common sense could be put into law. The majority of transgender I believe are law abiding citizens. There just seems to be a few of those ones who use their self iding as a women to abuse real women or children.
Could the law not state that if a self ID woman attacks or has attacked in the past when he was a man, another woman or child, then they should belong in a man’s prison (although reading that history woman Twitter above, some of these people should be locked up in a secure mental institution. Not for being trans but for being mentally sick).
With regard to the public toilets situation – what stops a man who is happily a man!, walking into ladies toilets and abusing women and/or children at the moment? Nothing. All he has to do is open the door and walk in.
That’s it – and when I self ID as a woman will I have the right to NHS treatment to have the Baws and Boaby removed.
And later if I change my mind can I get reconstructive surgery and or a Baws and Boaby transplant. And if not can I get a prosthetic on the NHS.
Reverse type of question for those starting off with s Fudd.
And no joking. These are serious questions.
And further, what will ones legal status be once one has jumped the Dyke so as to speak. Will their previous gender still be on record or should it be removed.
And how will insurance companies or actuaries deal with individuals in assessing risk, mortality rates etc. It’s a serious question because sex influenced actuarial risk – ergo teenage boys as drivers Vs teenage girls. Self ID,legally per GRA as a girl and could you get cheaper insurance ?)
Yep – it’s all good fun. Loon balls – asylum comes to mind.
@ScotsRenewables
Because they are the party in power if you havent noticed. They have had 4 mandates for Independence and yet again they are prevaricating.
So what?
Is this about indy or the GRA? If the former, why attack the SNP for something which is – in that context – irrelevant? If the proposed reforms have cross-party support then there is no reason for them to damage the Indy cause.
If the latter, then same argument – why no criti ism or comment on other parties?
Sorry, but this is just an ongoing vindictive and childish attempt to damage the SNP – which has fortunately failed because the author is not quite as influential as he thought.
So , asking questions is upsetting those people against gender recognition self ID
There are a great many older people set in their ways who always respond by saying men are men and women are women which doesn’t take account of the real difficulties experienced by those who don’t feel as if they are the gender they should be.
Examples of areas given of areas that become unsafe because of gender recognition self ID are
Prisons , Hospitals ,women’s refuges , sports facility changing rooms , toilet cubicles, shop changing rooms.
Apart from prisons and women’s refuges all of these places have had free movement of both sexes for a very very long time .
I think it is unlikely prisons and women’s refuges will not have arrangements put in place to prevent risk arising as a result of any changes in legislation, we will see.
Are women being attacked or assaulted in shared toilets
On trains
Planes
Buses
Changing cubicles in swimming pools
Changing rooms in shops
I have not heard of it being a problem but maybe other people have ?
An earlier post on here said that women transgendering to be a man are not themselves going to put other people at risk and are not going to be at risk of assault or attack but what evidence supports that ?
The main concern i read here is men transgendering from a man to a woman using that transition to attack or assault women but the evidence from other places where these arrangements have been in place for sometime appears to say that it’s not so ?
Evidence will surface I’m sure
In the meantime
I’m going to trust the law to get it right
No law is perfect
But it’s better than the reactionary lynchmob
WOS appears to be staying they have better judgement and knowledge of the subject than the many experts employed by government
A good deal of folk on here always agree with WOS no matter
I’m no expert
So I will go with what the experts lawyers and professionals say
And categorically my vote for SNP which is the only way to get Scottish independence
Will not be affected by this or any other subject
One more thing
Those of you saying women’s rights are being taken away by this are incorrect
The law does not allow that
Any new law has to pass the test that it does not reduce or erased existing human rights
Cynical highlander.
How on earth could you think the SNP have been procrastinating on independence when they’re dealing with the burning issue of the GRA.
Independence to choose one’s gender. Job done.
I see the Sun stoking up nonsense with their Tory pals that a new SNP MP
Crossed his fingers as he took a oath to the Queen as he was sworn in.
Apparently this is worse than the Queen being used by Cameron during Indy Ref 1,
Worse than Bojo the Clown lying to the Queen face to face and worse than every
Tory MP walking out of Parliament as the SNP members wished to express their point of view?
One day soon this Tory Scum and it’s Fake news media will not operate here in the Republic of Scotland.
It’s about TRUST and once lost it will never return.
The SNP might benefit from less of this depressing stuff.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18107852.alyn-smith-i-now-accept-not-going-stop-brexit/
The party that spearheads the fight for independence really needs to ‘man up’.
The soppy and defeatist sounding introspection we can do without.
Essential reading
Triumph of the trans lobbyists
http://archive.is/NRZJZ
London Zoo has a cheetah which is going to self ID as Donald the man, and enter the Tokyo Olympics competing at every distance and the long jump and high jump
The law will no doubt recognise he has no advantage.
https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/january-2020/triumph-of-the-trans-lobbyists/
Life comes at you fast, especially politically.
Today GRA – tomorrow, discussing the evisceration of devolution and Scotland. Cameron moved swiftly over the winter of 2014/15 and EVEL and the EU ref was in place by post GE 2015.
With the first order of business now out the way, Gove, Cummings and the cadre will be moving against Scotland rapidly. It’ll be coming out in the wash shortly.
I’ll wait.
Looks to me like the FM is trying to build another ‘Scottish Constitutional Convention’ approach to getting an Indyref.
On the plus side if it works it will help to galvanise public support for Independence as the outcome on the downside it took 9 years from formation to delivery for the last one and was dependent on a UK change of government.
If that is the course she is setting on its not going to deliver an indyref in the 2020’s never mind 2020 itself.
@Effijy
The 48 took the oath of allegiance to the British state’s apotheosis, the monarch.
That is the scandal, the hypocrisy.
The National party is pushing support for it to the wire.
The SNP must kick britishness and all its neo-colonial implications and symbolism out of its universe.
If the National party strategy does not measure up to the new political climate I cannot envisage it being the only kid on the nationalist bloc in the future.
State opening of parliament….the English pantomime season has begun.
Dear Terry
Terry callachan says:
19 December, 2019 at 9:30 am
“Examples of areas given of areas that become unsafe because of gender recognition self ID are
Prisons , Hospitals ,women’s refuges , sports facility changing rooms , toilet cubicles, shop changing rooms.”
“Apart from prisons and women’s refuges all of these places have had free movement of both sexes for a very very long time .”
Actually this is not correct – changing facilities, shop changing rooms and toilet Cubicals do not have free movement (no puns allowed re toilet cubicles.. I know)
“I think it is unlikely prisons and women’s refuges will not have arrangements put in place to prevent risk arising as a result of any changes in legislation, we will see.”
They do not have arrangements in place at this time, and if the GRA is passed and they put arrangements in place – they will be discriminating against a transgender person on the grounds of their transgenderness and be prosecuted.
“Are women being attacked or assaulted in shared toilets
On trains
Planes
Buses”
No they are not – because on trains, planes and buses – the toilet facilities are single person only – in no way are they ‘shared’.
“Changing cubicles in swimming pools
Changing rooms in shops”
It is not that they are be ‘attacked’ – it is the case that they are regular reports in the mixed changing cubical areas of leisure pools – of peeping tom type incidents – you know, where the previe type sneaks a mobile phone under the cubical and videos the child getting changed.
Staff at the leisure pools do all they can to prevent this, however it happens regularly – and the pervs who do it, make detection more difficult because they travel from town to town. Some of the pervs are on the Registered Sex Offenders list. So – no problems/dangers there then.
As adults we can all say we, hey, its no big deal, but for a child, who’s privacy is invaded in this way, so some perv can get their rocks off – it is genuinely upsetting, in what should be a safe, fun environment.
Changing rooms in shops – there have been recent published examples of male to female transgenders posting images of themselves trying on the ladies underwear in shops and also getting their rocks off – nice.
“I have not heard of it being a problem but maybe other people have ? ” See above.
“An earlier post on here said that women transgendering to be a man are not themselves going to put other people at risk and are not going to be at risk of assault or attack but what evidence supports that ? ”
There are statistics for this collated – feel free to research and find yourself – or you could pay attention to the discussion going on here and no doubt it will come up again.
“The main concern i read here is men transgendering from a man to a woman using that transition to attack or assault women but the evidence from other places where these arrangements have been in place for sometime appears to say that it’s not so ?”
There are a small number of transitional males who are a danger to women/children and are using the process to gain access to womens ‘safe’ places. By making Self ID so easy – it is making it incredibly easy for them to commit crimes against women, but more importantly, by making it a sackable offence for any person to raise legitimate concerns about this – it is closing down debate.
The evidence is available in Denmark, Canada, New Zealand – the most obvious examples are within the prison network Rape, Assault, Harassment – all have been reported.
“Evidence will surface I’m sure” – see above.
“In the meantime
I’m going to trust the law to get it right
No law is perfect
But it’s better than the reactionary lynchmob”
At every single stage in highlighting this issue, the Rev has provided evidence, statistic and logic.
You could not get further away from the term ‘reactionary lynch mob’.
The time to get the law right is in the consultation and drafting – badly written laws are a nightmare to fix. Laws are written by people with all the potential failings therein. That is why they need to be transparent and written in full view of the public and professionals, and open debate encouraged and supported. At every stage in this ‘movement’ physical violence, censorship, verbal abuse and discrimination has been actively pursued against (mostly women) who have dared to question or reasonably argue that there are problems with this policy.
If you are going to ‘trust the law to get it right’, please look again – like democracy itself, it requires eternal vigilance. It was lawful for a man to rape his wife until 1995.
“WOS appears to be saying they have better judgement and knowledge of the subject than the many experts employed by government”
It would certainly be fair to say WOS is more up to date, and better researched than many in the Government on this subject – and he has the stats to back it up.
“I’m no expert
So I will go with what the experts lawyers and professionals say”
Become an expert. Do your research and read up on this. Don’t just take what the lawyers and professionals say as read.
“And categorically my vote for SNP which is the only way to get Scottish independence
Will not be affected by this or any other subject.”
Then you hand our enemies a blank cheque – because others will infiltrate the SNP and push policies that make them unelectable – they have practice in this – its what they did to labour.
“One more thing
Those of you saying women’s rights are being taken away by this are incorrect
The law does not allow that
Any new law has to pass the test that it does not reduce or erased existing human rights”
The reason WOS has highlighted the ongoing GRA is because it really is taking away womens rights – by re-writing the law to do so.
In peace and kindness, I hope your ok with the above and can find some time to consider why so many of us are deeply deeply concerned about this issue, and not write us off as a Lynchmob.
@ Terry Callachan
Looking at the wider discussion with this issue over many countries it looks a little like this –
Official ‘Madam we are going to have to body search you as the scanner has picked up something’
Woman ‘Ok, thats fine then. But wait – im not being patted down by a man’
Official ‘This is Susan. She isnt a man. She identifies as a woman’
Woman ‘Im sorry, but I refuse to be body searched by a man’
The woman in the above narrative could be liable to criminal proceedings.
There was recently a case where a man, who claimed to be a woman, took a Canadian beauticians to court over their refusal to wax his ‘female’ balls. The beauticians won, but the fact it even went to court is obscene.
You are wondering where the problem is? Are you somewhat thick?
So, the FM has now made a formal request for a s30.
http://www.gov.scot/publications/scotlands-right-choose-putting-scotlands-future-scotlands-hands/
She sent him this document too.
I had just finished listening to the FM speech in a rainy car park before going into the cafe. It was alright and somewhat reassuring in it’s way. Throwing down a mitten but maybe the gauntlet to follow kinda thing.
My old daily mail reading nemesis bustled in at the next table about 10 minutes later.
“Did you hear ‘clicky-heels’ on the radio”? says she.
“We’re all one now, time this independence thing was finished”
she continued. 🙁
I was about to give my rebuttal but was beaten to to the punch by my partner Karen, not given much to get involved in a political debate. She tore my old dear a few new ones with a short sharp list of ‘what has the SNP ever done for you’ list and that was that! 🙂
An uncomfortable silence ensued until I broke the ice with my old adversary a wee bit later asking her views on the weather and other things. 🙂
Independence is something up with which some folk will not put but it made on reflection, the FM speech became more important to me and I felt better for having heard it.
Nicola’s demand for the Section 30 on the day of the Queens speech, brilliant timing. Betty will not be pleased.
I think one of the interesting aspects of this debate is that politicians of all persuasions tend to be of the woke, pc tendency and there seem to be more lgbt types than in the population at large.
In contrast the general population and in particular the forgotten blue collar and working classes tend to be of a socially conservative persuasion albeit they may be left wing on many other issues.
The SNP supporters are very much of that ilk, hence this revolt against the trendy leadership.
@Pete
One of the definitions of politician is ‘a person who engages in politics out of a wish for personal gain, as realized by holding a public office’.
In Scotland we know all about that.
Politics is not a lifetime job.
We actually need a new type entering the political field. The British ‘lobby fodder’ type is unfit for the game.
Interestingly the Queens speech contains a paragraph about reviewing the Consitiution (which doesnt exist).
I have no doubt what that means.
Whoever it was who pointed out to me (upthread) that John Swinney is as ‘woke’ as the rest of them, sorry, I can’t find your comment.
I didn’t have him down as one of those roasters, thought he was above all that.
Disappointing.
🙁
Labour’s Welsh NHS does it again -Mother aged 47, who was forced to wait nearly SIX hours on freezing pavement for an ambulance after slipping and breaking her foot dies of heart attack in hospital just hours later.
And that Dick Leonard tried to give Scotland’s NHS a hard time?
Yesterday was the needless death of a child at a Tory NHS site in England.
Funny who these stories get buried quicker than the bodies with UK Media but a Pigeon Dropping in Scotland can run as a headline for a year?
Not adding up: Over one in four local authority controlled secondary schools in England face an average deficit of £570,000. Photograph: Getty Images/Juice Images RF
More than one in four local authority maintained secondary schools in England are in the red, with an average deficit of more than half a million pounds, while many more are “teetering on the edge”, according to new financial analysis.
Many School’s in England now close at lunch time on a Friday as they cannot afford to stay open.
Translated into Tory Double Speak they have worked wonders with Education in England and they will all be getting Jam tomorrow -well maybe after a second decade of Tory Rule? NOT!
Boris Johnson pledged to investigate Islamophobia during a TV debate for the Tory leadership.
The Conservatives have been accused of ignoring systematic Islamophobia in their ranks after Boris Johnson broke his promise to hold an inquiry specifically into the issue and announced a broad-brush review of how the party handles discrimination complaints instead.
The Muslim Council of Britain expressed concern at the move on Tuesday, saying it suspected that broadening the remit was designed to bury the real problem.
“This appointment is at risk of being seen in the same light as the Conservative party’s customary approach to Islamophobia, that of denial, dismissal and deceit,” said its general secretary, Harun Khan.
Rev’s other Twitter account @RevStu has gained approx 450 new followers since yesterday morning.
Keep joining and sharing – contains a lot of important links for those who *are* interested in the GRA/TRA issue.
I’d like to appeal to our First Minister that on achieving Independence we offer free education to those in England who are unable to read or participate in joined up thinking.
It is dangerous for us, as neighbours, to let these poor people continue to believe in a Serial Liar PM in an Immoral Party within a Corrupt Westminster parliament.
Firstly, as a human being intent on democracy and equality, I find this troubling. Insufficient public consultation, trying to pass laws “under the radar”, silencing questioning, let alone opposing views and opinions. Dodgy “science”, policy capture by lobby groups.
The Brexit referendum and the recent GE are examples of how disinformation, or just plain emotive slogans and stories, if disseminated wide enough can turn referendums/elections. Facts, even scientific facts, don’t matter anymore. “Bloody experts, with their science and facts! I don’t like them!” It’s all about emotions and feelz, a travesty of democracy.
Add to that that the trans agenda – so wholly embraced by the upper echelons of the SNP – WILL be used by unionists against them and Scottish independence in general. You don’t have to wear a tinfoil hat to see how this will pan out.
Secondly, as a woman… I’ll continue in a second post.
We live in the age of male and female equality.
Just get rid of womens’ spaces and make everything unisex secure places.
That’s the way it’s going to go no matter what SNP or uber woke anti wokists say.
Can I now make a retrospective claim for damages against the Scottish Education System for them teaching me a load of shite in Biology Class during my formative years?
I’m having trouble reading twitter (no inclination to post) it keeps reloading – so you can’t see the page long enough to read anything. Anyone know how to fix it?
Secondly, as a woman (adult female human) I resent and actually find it scary and chilling that should these changes in legislation go through, men, male, XY people will be able to access any female places on their say-so.
This proposed Scottish legislation (and we have a similar proposal in my country) erases women as a distinct sex class, a class of people with distinct concerns, distinct protections, distinct rights.
Because some natal male female self-identifyers would feel a bit hurt that the world – or more specifically, nasty female women – don’t validate their “femaleness”.
It’s misogyny, male coercion/female silencing all over again. It doesn’t matter how the perpetrator “self-IDs”, if they perpetrate the same old, same old male dominance over females – as they do – it’s not progressive. It’s hugely reggresive.
One aspect that I greatly dislike about this new brand of “transwomen” is how they seemingly think they’re doing “girl” or “woman” better than actual girls and women. “Humph, their female experiences and opinions don’t matter because they haven’t suffered like I do.”
So blithely dismissing ALL female experiences. Because they’re not trans, and cannot understand their singular experience.
Minorities and oppressed demographics should have legal protection but not at the expence of another legally protected class (women).
The new, aggressive TRA activism doesn’t even seem to represent longer standing trans activists, who are trying to find a middle ground, to fit in. This new trans activism disregard the pleas of “intersex” (DSD – a medical condition) people to not use their medical condition and lived experience as an argument for their gender agenda. It’s all about what they want and feel.
Quite a male thing.
There are some good comments here today, but many of us (including me, last night, when I allowed myself to be drawn into a pointless exchange that got nowhere) are, I think, straying from the point this article is explicitly making.
The GRA is no more than an example; a serious and important one that needs to be dealt with before independence lest it scupper that, but still not the main issue.
The main issue is that facts and reality are being discarded (see the Forstater case) in favour of delusional woo.
If we concede that, we might as well give up.
Let’s not do that.
Everyday, everyone of us, wakes up to an unsettling, if not disturbing, reality, viz., that everything we might watch on TV, or hear on the radio, or read in the Press, or online, particularly on the subject of current affairs, might very well be untrustworthy.
Even more so in Scotland which effectively gets almost all of its News & Current Affairs via England.
In recent years, the Truth has become like an endangered species, with the Westminster Government of Boris Johnson seemingly determined to exterminate it altogether. While at the same time, every variety of lying is being encouraged to flourish and spread everywhere and become established.
This attempt to completely extinguish the truth, underpins every Westminster Government decision and approach to forming policy.
This is the crisis of our times. The basis for all sound and reliable decision-making, is being systematically removed.
Every day we wake up, more lies, and the crisis gets worse.
Choose Independence for Scotland – then vote SNP to get it.
@crazy cat.
Everybody should be worried about GRA, simply put, this is just the beginning. To paraphrase ‘when they came for my sister, I did nothing’. This is a long term project for as yet unidentified vested interests. I doubt strongly that gender ID is their real purpose, more a pushing of the boundaries to eventually who knows where. If this is indeed just the start, where is it taking us.
Saw Gove on the Beeb giving it how the Scots don’t need a referendum and they won’t get one.
Don’t know about anyone else but it’s a dangerous situation when someone somewhere else tells you that your democratic mandate is not worth anything whilst their smaller one is. Even more dangerous when they say no referendum.
So what you going to do Boris. Put the troops in, martial law, curfew, appoint a Governor General.
Maybe he will but Scotland will take its independence.
Mind you, Bono might not have his troubles to seek in Northern Ireland. The hard fought road to the peace process and the Good Friday Agreement could end up in flames. The Brighton bombing, the mortar attack on Downing Street, the London spectaculars might all be in the padst, but when you trample democracy in that previously troubled land, the problem, despite all of GBs fabled superiority, might again prove to be wanting.
But there you are Bojo’s moronic fascist father opined only a few months ago about who would care if the Irish shoot each other. Kind of tells you how the Johnston mindset operates, how it thinks about independence matters, and how it will approach the EU.
Fun times ahead ……and yes, I’m Spartacus !
I see NONE of those prominent ‘liberal’ minded remainers via their Twitter a/c’s. are acknowledging FM’s speech today on telly re requesting powers for further referendum…colour me surprised…..
The program for them seems to now be the following :
Shh….if we ignore it ( Scotland seeking second Indy Ref)…then it isn’t happening…instead let’s moan about Labour losing the election and the chance to get second EU Ref…speculate WHO will be their NEW leader…who WE want as their NEW leader (Blairite)…moan about Boris and the Tories ….praise Tony Blair’s..’intervention’ yesterday….have a good Xmas and then start the fight again in the New year….psst..only mention Scotland again if they can be useful to us…pass it round….BTW why have we suddenly gone all silent in our support for Jo Swinson and the Lib Dems….Ssshhh…don’t mention the Lib Dems they are no longer of any use to us.
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See Scotland getting freedom from this shitfest that Scots did NOT create is NOT their, the prominent ‘liberal’ minded remainers, priority and never was…so if THEY, the prominent ‘liberal’ minded remainers, leave the EU then we Scots must too….a case of you’re not leaving us to deal with the Tories on our own…not when so many who live in our country are so easily duped by slogans and false promises…Scotland we need you don’t leave us lead us….especially now you have proven yet again that you , as usual, are not taken in by propaganda and crap from the Tories….sorry old chaps we must insist you stay to help us, the prominent ‘liberal’ minded remainers, to fight the good fight…..don’t you know you are too poor, too wee and well not stupid…or easily led…but you owe us…we want to stay in EU too….oh FFS you had your vote in 2014..it was a vote for infinity and beyond you thick Jocks…
The above was of course…me paraphrasing with abandon…but kinda feel deep down that is EXACTLY what some of them think and expect…..we are on our own…we need to decide…bucket full of sheeite is incoming from ALL quarters….no worries…seen it all before….if common sense was a inherent trait of a Scot then deaf ears to the negativity of unionists would be the order of the day….listen ONLY to your heart and your head Scottish peeps cause they will tell you what is the right think to do.
Independence is normal .
“Out of intetest how many people identity as trans in scotland?”
TRAs claim 0.7% of the population, but that figure is generally regarded as wildly inflated and based on encompassing all manner of people (eg intersex) under the “trans umbrella”. Were we to accept it at face value that would translate to around 317,000 people. A more realistic number is more like 50,000.
Thirdly, I’m quite anxious about my Chrismas gathering. Mum, dad, my older brother, me, my younger brother, his wife and his two offspring.
The oldest offspring is now 19. Transman and working in political groups to bring self-ID to my country’s legislation.
She was precocious, bright, learned to read at 5 (I always felt a bit resentful at all the admiration, I learned to read at 4.) – Oh, in my country, you’te not expected to learn to read and write until you’re 7 years old, the first year of primary school.
Anyway, she was the fist grandchild on both sides. Cosseted and admired. So bright, took evening classes to learn Japanese, she was so into manga and anime.
She came out as non-binary… or actually trans man soon after her body becmne female, soon after periods.
When I heard about it, I couldn’t help wondering about what and why about being female is so objectionable that you’d rather pretend to be a man, in a futile attempt to escape society’s normal stories.
By the time I was teaching him to drive, I was expected to drink the same kool-aid the nephew and the parents did, and never question anything.
My little brother has indicated he wants me to teach his youngest one, the daughter, to drive. Apparently my driving teaching was good enough. I’ve even heard noises that I could teach my niece’s boyfriend.
All this is simple and easy, no pitfalls of sex/gender-confusion, just people. Too bad some woko haram person might spoil it all for his “thing”.
There isn’t such thing as free speech.
You have to be politically correct (who actually defines that?) and not give “offence” to anybody.
It’s a horrible “liberal” silencing and anti-democratic thing.
And anybody who objects is branded as “nazis” or “anti-trans” or whatever.
@ Golfnut at 2.19
Oh, absolutely – I am very worried about the GRA, but am holding back in my response to the consultation as requested by some of the women’s groups, in case there are developments.
I answered the first consultation; I was a bit critical, but not enough, because I was trying to be “nice” (hah!) – I’ll not make that mistake again.
I think you and I are actually making the same point – the unknown ultimate destination is the real concern.
It was a certain Magnus Hirschfeld who effectively kick started the concept of gender as opposed to sex. He was homosexual, Jewish and persecuted by, irony of ironies, the not infrequently sexually deviant Nazi ‘ideologists’.
He ended up in the US where his ideas found fertile ground among homosexual activists and influenced the likes of Kinsey’s views on human sexuality.
The notion of there being a ‘sexual orientation spectrum’ began with him.
The views of such as Hirschfeld are a challenge to the scientific principle.
For that reason alone they are pernicious.
Surely the ultimate destination is simple global population control in both numbers and compliance on a resource limited planet, along with the added benefit for the few of making money.
First they produced and sold us a load of chemical filled shitey food which fucked us up in both our physical and mental health.
Then they supplied pharmaceuticals to fix our broken minds and a bit of liposuction or gastric band surgery for the obesity.
Now they can supply even more pharmaceuticals and “sex bit” surgery rendering normal fertile folk unable to procreate.
For a country like Scotland that actually needs to boost its population to be viable, this doesn’t seem like a well thought through plan… which of course could actually be the underlying strategy.
Some commenters appear to express the old-fashioned attitude that if women would just shut up and be nice then we could all forget about this issue.
Stuart Campbell has got to the nub of the matter. Far more profound even than the transgender issue is the way activists within the SNP as well as other parties have behaved. I have always disliked bullying of any kind, whether expressed as a means of marginalizing people or silencing different opinions. When I see it being employed, I will immediately question it and find those who use it suspect.
Some people seem willing to overlook the bullying, barracking and no-platforming of women as being unimportant, or less important than gaining independence.
I have lost respect for some of those at the top in the SNP who have turned a blind eye to the targetting of women who question. I cannot overlook the willingness of these activists to shut down proper discussion. No good can come to a political movement from a rush to legislation with such a complex issue, as well as no good can come to a party (not just the SNP) where there are activists able to bully and insult with impunity.
Can no one who defends or wishes to ignore this behaviour not see the danger allowing such a means to an end? This kind of suppressing of free speech never leads to a good outcome. The liberal elite in the Labour party eventually demonized and neglected their working class voters in England and we can see where that leads and they learned nothing from it – witness the demands now for the return of New Labour and praise of Blair, for God’s sake.
Blair and Alistair Campbell were the wizards of spin. Ordinary voters were despised and marginalized because the entryists felt no need to engage. They lost many voters ages ago in Scotland because those voters became disillusioned by the elite and their methods.
Are you not concerned by women being unable to have meetings on university campuses to discuss this issue and being subjected to abuse and threats? Those who within the SNP indulge in this behaviour don’t disturb you? Well they do me.
I am hoping that there are thoughtful minds still at the top who might be concerned and not be hurried into instigating what is from the wilder shores of international practice, such as Canada and USA. This needs wise consideration because of the ramifications. Protecting a minority is a good thing but it needs careful examination of every possible outcome. Reiteration of slogans really doesn’t do it for me.
We might be dealing with the ramifications of this for years to come.
I probably put my earlier comment badly, incompetently.
What I wanted to say is that I dread our family Christmas because of the trans issue, and my new understanding of TRA and the legislation they’re pushing… Well, I risk alienating my little brother. He’s fierce in his defence of his daughters – now one being his son.
The trans in the family – my niece, now nephew – probably wouldn’t be as abrupt and sanctimoniuous as his dad.
Then there’s the older brother, the rich one (due to IT expertise), who’s almost thinking rich people should have more votes than poor people (like me – and it’s all my own fault I didn’t become rich, stupid woman studying languages and stuff).
Poor mum and dad.
They were kind of progressive in their day. Dad always supported my artist mum’s career, her career as a college teacher, her artistic endeavours all over the world. His engineer career took our family to foreign countries. We became the perfect middle class family aware of conditions in other countries, learning the language. Brought up very liberal.
Their daughter (me) lived in several places but only felt at home, got infatuated about a beautiful country, Scotland. Here we are, staring at missed opportunites.
I dread Chrismas because I don’t want to alianate my little brother and his family. I don’t want to make mum or dad uncomfortable, or spark up a debate with my rich right-wing brother.
Coward, me. Typical woman, socialised to avoid confrontation.
Also, maybe wise enough to avoid spoiling the family Christmas…
Only, I feel I might must weigh in on the trans-law debate, if it comes up. My nephew is 100% behind it, and if I ask questions, not swallow the same kool-aid, my little brother will probably disown me.
I’m amazed at how twisted people’s knickers have become. The problem seems to be language (as usual). From a biological perspective, males have a penis and females have a vagina. But the words ‘man’ and ‘woman’ have more connotations than just biological – they are used infer other aspects/qualities of being human, such as love, sex, social, personal. It seems we get confused when these are conflated with ‘male’ and ‘female’.
We should agree on the ‘words’ first – the terms of reference. Like someone is bound to have said in a film at some time…’Why can’t we all just get along…man?’
Drops mike and hurts toe!