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El Bombero

Posted on November 04, 2017 by

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    1. 04 11 17 07:57

      El Bombero | speymouth

    220 to “El Bombero”

    1. Street Andrew says:

      Nice one Chris.

      Good to have you back. Hope all is well.

    2. The Isolator says:

      Nailed it….Again!!!!!

    3. punklin says:

      Muy buen, Chris.

      O/t (already!) but worth reading Chris Deerin’s column in this week’s New Statesman. I was amazed at his all but conversion to Indy in the face of English brexit f**kwittery. A future no to yes film subject?

    4. One_Scot says:

      Great cartoon again Chris, very apt, but the worrying thing for me is, even though I am no expert on the situation, it looks to me as if Spain knows that no will stop them and their attitude is, ‘you will never be Independent so you might as well just go away and die’.

      I honestly cannot believe in a modern day Europe this is happening. If I saw this happen on the other side of a road, I would cross the street irrespective of the consequences, but then maybe that is just the way I am.

    5. jimnarlene says:

      Nailed it.

    6. Croompenstein says:

      The modern day Spanish Inquisition jailing people for their beliefs Torquemada would be proud.

      Thank God the Labour movement and Corbyn have condemned Rajoy and his henchmen… Oh wait..

    7. manandboy says:

      Glad to see you back in action, Chris. Nice one on Rajoy. Under pressure and showing his true colours – just like the Tories.
      Spain is creating a whole new global public fascist image for itself and what a PR disaster it is.
      The EU has a massive problem on its hands here.

    8. Conan the Librarian says:

      Shouldn’t he be beating himself up?

    9. Paisley bud says:

      Good cartoon, but there seems a striking resemblance between Rayos and Mundell!

    10. winifred mccartney says:

      Great cartoon, thanks.

      Do I see the shadow of the silent Corbyn?

    11. It is indeed an amalgam of Rajoy, Mundell, and Corbyn! What great art, Chris.
      A word of caution. I’d stay out of Spain for a decade or so, if I were you.
      Beelzebub has a Spanish devil set aside for you.
      Mucho gracias, amigo.

    12. galamcennalath says:

      Indeed, looks like Rajoy does want to imflame the situation. By showing admirable restraint the Catalan people are doing the right thing.

    13. Breeks says:

      Nice one Chris.

      It’s a little bleak in its prognosis, but this article seems a very credible summary of the Spanish situation.

      It’s a very good article but the big problem is it’s a bit “could’a, would’a, should’a, in its conclusions, and doesn’t really shed much light on there Spain and Catalonia go from here.

      The EU isn’t covering itself in glory siding with the Spanish government, but at the same time, I wonder whether the instability in Spain at large would be greater or lesser had the EU embraced Catalonia and suffered Spain throwing tantrums against Europe. Sadly, that’s not how it’s reading… the EU doesn’t seem conflicted or reluctant in its support for Spain. It genuinely sees the peaceful Catalonians as the agitators and Spanish as defenders.

      I wasn’t aware however of the PP party, Rajoy’s Peoples Party, was instrumental in trying to clip the wings of Catalonian Autonomy way back in 2010. Raises the uncomfortable question whether Rajoy’s Government is simply reacting very badly, or is actually the cause of all this and has been downright scheming and malevolent towards Catalonia from the off.

      What is Europe to do? Rajoy isn’t doing Europe any favours, and whatever EU Leaders are saying publicly I would bet what is said confidentiality would make a fly on the wall blush. Europe, and indeed the wider world, is twice hamstrung because Rajoy has the letter of the law on his side, and Spain has well known potentially volatile fault lines in its stability, but sooner or later, Europe must ask itself the question who the real bad guy is.

      But even supposing the EU does come around that conclusion that Rajoy is a bigger liability than Catalonian secession, (and that’s not guaranteed), there is the thoroughly awkward business of knowing what to do about it. If the PP has planning to provoke Catalonian sensibilities since before 2010, and all for domestic political gain, then the PP isn’t just Fascist but kinda psycho too.

      I am left with personal conflicts myself. I feel very angry that the EU is allowing itself to be damaged by this, Eurosceptics are crawling out of the woodwork everywhere to smear the EU, but yet, when you try to weigh up who there is who might be able calm things down and get people speaking about things like civilised grownups, there is nobody else in the frame better placed than the EU. We just need to give them time for their slow but steady leverage to work.

      If however it transpires that the PP has been orchestrating events in Catalonia through wilful provocations, then that is perhaps Rajoy’s Achilles heel. People always mention the Basques and Galicia in the same breath as Catalonia, and perhaps Rajoy’s scheming might be the catalyst for a Spanish to confront a federal or even confederal solution.

      It’s borderline conspiracy theory I know, but Rajoy jailing opponents reeks to me of the political capital to be drawn from their release, and I wonder too whether the EU is perhaps setting up Rajoy ready for the fall.

    14. louis.b.argyll says:

      When homogeneous right-wing or left-wing forces rule a nation, or a bloc, social hatred focuses on threats to their absolute power.

      When progressive democratically-founded movements threaten the traditional systems of power, they are demonised as unconstitutional.

      So EU, are all applications of member-states constitutions to be respected whether they breach human rights or not.

      What is the point of EUROPE, if it is not ABOVE the use of aggression?

    15. Brian Powell says:

      It has moved way beyond a matter of constitutional arguments. When a state drags legal politicians, hand cuffed and naked into jail, has police with posters of the politicians crossed out out as they are arrested, like the members of drug gang, then the niceties of argument becomes entirely hollow.

    16. Macart says:

      Neatly done. 🙂

      Mr Rajoy isn’t really interested ‘unity’, nor apparently ever has been. So few leaders of ‘the big state’ truly are. They are interested in the continuance of the state, the integrity of what they see as its borders and the adherence to their own political dogma. Difference of opinion from people or peoples which currently fall under the jurisdiction of said state is anathema to their worldview.

      I wonder, has it ever occurred to the leaders of these institutions, why do peoples consider secession from their state? Why do countries such as Scotland, have such significant movements considering the dissolution of international treaties? Did it never occur to these leaders that perhaps the state is in the wrong, or has been considered to do some wrong which makes life under their supervision untenable to these peoples, these movements? Apparently not.

      The theory and practice behind promoting unity isn’t hard. Just as the theory and practice behind government isn’t hard. You give people a reason to WANT to stay. You can of course, as in the case of Spain and to a lesser degree UKgov, use fear, intimidation, uncertainty, but that however is only ever a short term solution. This tactic builds resentment and anger. This strategy makes it inevitable that people will continue to revisit the need to break away from those they perceive to be their jailer, their oppressor and the source of their woes.

      Which brings you back to that phrase ‘want to stay’. Guests, partners, friends, family ‘want’ to stay. Prisoners, hostages, the abused ‘want’ to get the hell out of Dodge.

      Still, I’m sure the leaders of big government, the big state, don’t require ordinary folk pointing out the bleedin’ obvious to them. I’m sure they’re perfectly aware that with the application of fear and intimidation to their political opponents they’re not solving problems, or promoting unity. They’re merely ensuring the inevitable further fracturing of their own society and the power of the state they claim to be protecting.

      Their choice.

    17. paul gerard mccormack says:

      Clearly the words ‘democracy’ ‘democratic’ and ‘democratically’ used by the Spanish state are just contemporary European fig-leafs to mask the dictators they’ve always been.

      …and to think that Scotland took lectures from these very people…

    18. Bob Mack says:

      Great cartoon Chris. Spain has at last dropped the veneer thin disguise of being democratic. It has resorted to the old ways of Franco. Crush dissent and neutralise opponents of your aims, by all means necessary.

      Fascism never really dies in any society. It only hides amongst crank groups and peripheral nutters until it becomes fashionable again. On my own part, I have spent my last of many holidays in Spain. I shall not return whilst this madness continues unabated.

      I am also questioning the EU and their lack of voice at what is happening in one of their member states. They have made much ado about Ireland but nothing about Catalonia. I fear they have fallen into a bear pit with recent events.

      If they cannot guarantee the rights of Catalan citizens then why would anyone else trust them with their own freedoms?

    19. Muscleguy says:

      I fear Rojoy’s thinking in this matter runs much closer to remembering that the Spanish state faced down and defeated ETA. Sure it had to cede some powers to the Basque country but he knows it was done once and could be done again.

      His frustration and miscalculation is that the Catalans know it too and are steadfast and utterly determine that no matter the provocations violence will never be the response.

      Rajoy desperately wants, needs the Catalans to take to the armalite and the bomb. The more they stand steadfast on peaceful democracy the more dumbfounded he is.

      Puigdemont going to Brussels is genius. If push comes to shove they can appeal to the ECJ over the extradition and all the while in full glare of publicity in the EU capital.

      Rajoy needs things to go Basque and he needs them to go there FAST. Because a whole slew of Catalan cases are working their ways through the ECJ and he knows it. Violence means a state of emergency and legal justification for removing rights.

      Bear all that in mind as you watch.

    20. heedtracker says:

      He’s certainly got the Brit establishment’s 100% backing. With a little luck, it could be self-immolation. If only our imperial masters would do it too.

    21. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Nae Danger of The Labour movement or Corbyn condemning Rajoy and his henchmen @Croompenstein says at 7:51 am.

      Money talks in the BritNat world of the ‘International Socialist’ Red Tory Party.

      Scottish Power sponsored the BritNat Red Tory Conference this year at the same time that Rajoys Paramilitary Police brutalised Catalan civilians trying to exercise their legitimate and democratic right to vote.

      Scottish Power, a subsidiary of Spanish Iberdrola.

      Take the cash and say nothing.

      The BritNat way.

    22. Les Wilson says:

      What countries have now recognised Catalonia? Slovenia and Finland have said they would, not sure but Iceland may have said the same.
      I have seen no headlines referring to this.

    23. harry mcaye says:

      Angus McNeil MP has tweeted this today – Should EU act on Spain given Catalan Ministers lawyer said, “All of them were veiled, harrassed, back handcuffed, could not eat & two naked”.

      Stripped naked!!! Words fail me.

    24. Dan Huil says:

      Tierra del fuego, Franco-style.

    25. heedtracker says:

      Stripped naked!!! Words fail me.

      Cant be true, its not on the BBC.

      BBC r4 news regular Spanish updates describe Puigdemont the Catalan only as a “separatist leader,” over and over. Fascism slimes around and about us.

    26. manandboy says:

      The front pages of the press in England are full of MP’s sex allegations. No mention of Catalonia/Spain/EU.

    27. liz says:

      Excellent Chris.
      When I looked at that at first thought it was Corbyn.

      The EU are not coming out of this well.
      How can they justify jailing politicians?

    28. Marcia says:

      Here is a link the Scottish Independence Convention;

      It is quite interesting.

    29. heedtracker says:

      The front pages of the press in England are full of MP’s sex allegations. No mention of Catalonia/Spain/EU.

      Stinky old tory Graun’s got this. Guess what they say, SNP bad, really bad. This takes two Graun tories too, to tell us SNP are very bad, shock. Or, FM Sturgeon is vile, vile seps are vile, anywhere, between the ears of tory UKOK types.

      Catalan crisis creates tensions in Scottish independence movement
      As a Catalan leader prepares to speak in Edinburgh, some supporters of Scottish self-determination are unhappy with the SNP’s stance
      ndence Estelada flags following a protest after the referendum Photograph: Alberto Estevez/EPA

      Libby Brooks and Severin Carrell
      Friday 3 November 2017 16.50 GMT

      I’ve not actually read this but its a fair guess:D that Graun tories are smearing their Scotland region with Catalonia.

    30. Hamish100 says:

      Fascist behaviour by the state against a people.

      … and Labour supports the fascists all because of their hatred of the independence movement in Scotland for not voting for them.

      How low can they get? Much lower.

      Corbyn appoints someone who allegedly behaves sleazily with a young labour supporter and says nothing but can give advice on how to poach an egg on gogglebox. How the political prisoners held by the Spanish must love the Labour Party of England.

    31. Dan Huil says:

      Alex Salmond in today’s National:

      “It would be neither right or effective for those of us in the national movement to attempt to replicate the disastrous Brexit blank sheet of paper which is laying the UK low just now. And so, if the national movement by consensus were to determine that independent Scottish membership of EFTA, at least as an interim position, was the correct way forward then this dictates the timing of a referendum.

      It would need to take place as an alternative to a hard Brexit crash or during any transition period on trade which had been negotiated.

      That position would offer an island of clarity amid a sea of uncertainty and be a huge asset to winning an independence campaign.”

      Very interesting, and encouraging IMO.

    32. schrodingers cat says:

      legal, illegal??

      every country in the world has laws, even cambodia and nazis germany had laws, but we didnt not execute hitler because it was against german law??? It was illegal as per Ukrainian Law for Putin to annex Crimea but that didnt stop Putin

      the moment the spanish military police started beating the Catalan people and arresting their politicians, the spanish constitution became worth less than the paper it is written on.

      Spaniards maybe beholden to the spanish constitution but the rest of the world is not. They look at what is happening in Catalunya then look to their own laws and international laws for moral guidance. If they decided that Rajoy and his goons are wrong then it is wrong. end of. screw the spanish constitution and its legal position

      at the moment, support for spain is based on the notion that the catalan people who want independence are very much the majority. James Kelly has an article up at the moment which destroys that idea.

      the real test for Catalunya will be the elections on the 21st Dec, if their is a majority for independence supporting parties and Rajoy rejects the result, at that moment, Rajoy will begin to heamorage support from many leaders across the world.

      this is why I have been hasseling Verhoftstadt to demand that eu/un observers are present during the election on the pretext of protecting voters but also to monitor the count.

      I cant verify it but it was tweeted that the electoral register in Catalunya has increased by 300,000 in the past few days!!

    33. HandandShrimp says:

      Can’t make my mind up if Rajoy thinks he embodies the spirit of Franco or is just very incompetent (or both).

    34. heedtracker says:

      I cant verify it but it was tweeted that the electoral register in Catalunya has increased by 300,000 in the past few days!!

      Is that Spaniards piling in to vote out vile sep parties in Catalonia?

      A lot of voters did that in Scotland too, 2014. They were on telly, to make sure it was clear how to do it, the re registering at the parents house, second home owners, could have had quite an impact.

    35. Macart says:


      That’d be my guess.

    36. heedtracker says:

      HandandShrimp says:
      4 November, 2017 at 11:20 am
      Can’t make my mind up if Rajoy thinks he embodies the spirit of Franco or is just very incompetent (or both).

      We have to face the fact that Britnat’s in Scotland and England, in the media ofcourse, would all relish civil hot war in Spain right now.

      Look at how Severin of The Graun today for example, is already using Catalonia to monster Scottish democracy and self government. And that crew are the English liberal progressive er, section, they keep telling the world.

    37. Iain mhor says:

      @Dan Hull
      Politically expedient in light of current events maybe, but I have donned the hard hat awaiting the volleys of ‘ betrayal of democratic wishes, electorate vote remain in EU, SNP betraying something or other, interspersed with a 99% (or is it 100%?) guarantee it won’t happen something, something. I have a spare with a chinstrap if you want 🙂

    38. Alex Clark says:

      “I cant verify it but it was tweeted that the electoral register in Catalunya has increased by 300,000 in the past few days!!”

      It wouldn’t surprise me in the least to find out that the statement is true. A couple of days ago Liz Castro tweeted a link to a FAQ about voting in the upcoming election.

      It’s in Spanish and a pdf so I used an online translation site so as I could read it.

      Here’s a couple of examples and there are plenty more:

      Who can vote in this election?

      In these elections may vote from abroad:

      A) The residents enrolled in the Spanish census of absent residents (CERA) of Spaniards abroad these elections, that is, those whose municipality of registration for electoral purposes is in Catalonia.

      B) Spanish residents in Catalonia who are registered on the electoral roll of Spanish residents in Spain (CER) are staying temporarily abroad.

      3. I will come to this consular demarcation after August 1, 2017 to reside permanently and want to vote in this election, is it possible?

      Yes it is possible, fulfilling the following requirements:

      First, you must register with the Consular Register as “resident” if you have not already done so.

      Second, during the “consultation period / exhibition”, namely, between 3 and 10 November (inclusive) you must make a claim high for inclusion in the electoral roll, which processed at the Consular Office of their area.

      Seems that they are doing all they can to encourage voters from outwith Catalonia to register. The original document can be downloaded here:

    39. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Thinking about QT the other night things steadily got clearer.

      In a Scotland in which the nationalists have the most local councillors by a considerable margin, a majority in the Scottish Parliament,most MEPs and more MPs than all the unionists put together ie a complete dominance in Scottish politics – we had a QT with a panel of four unionists (three of them English )and one nationalist.

      (There is only one really significant issue in Scotland at the moment and that is Scotland’s constitutional future.)

      The BBC will argue that QT is UK wide programme. Why then was it dominated by issues of a specific Scottish interest with obvious plants in the audience primed to attack the efforts of the Scottish government on these issues? We of course know the answer – but does the rest of our population?

      I will concede this point when I see a QT from Plymouth or Wolverhampton with a panel made up of perhaps Tommy Sheppard, Patrick Harvey, Alex Salmond and Elaine C Smith roasting some poor Tory minister on the collapsing NHS in England or where all their policeman have gone.

      I will wait a long time. Likelier I suspect for Dermott Desmond to buy Rangers and appoint Neil Lennon as the Gers mananger.

    40. Les Wilson says:

      schrodingers cat says:

      Ref the up and coming Catalonian referendum, on the 21st December.
      Rajoy will just rig it, with advice from Cameron no doubt.

    41. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      schrodingers cat at 11.13

      A very important distinction. Legal does not mean right, proper, morally acceptable or democratically acceptable. It only means it is accordance with some law. It was legal here at one time to burn witches at the stake and is legal in Saudi Arabia to decapitate, disembowel and dismember folk.
      Whether some action is legitimate is a better judgement.

    42. Brian McHugh says:

      EU Presidency Statement in NY – The right to self-determination

      Mr Chairman,

      I have the honor to speak on behalf of the European Union on agenda item 118 ?Right of peoples to self-determination?.
      The right of peoples to self-determination features prominently in the main instruments concerning human rights, such as the United Nations Charter or the two International Covenants on civil and political rights and on economic, social and cultural rights respectively.

      As the United Nations Charter points out, the development of good relations between nations must be founded on the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples. This right has lost none of its relevance in the present international context and continues to claim the attention of the international community as an integral part of those human rights the observance and protection of which must be ensured by States.

      This right, in accordance with which peoples freely determine their own political status and freely provide for their own economic, social and cultural development, illustrates clearly the interdependence and indivisibility of human rights recognized at the Vienna Conference on Human Rights in 1993. Making this right a reality requires full observance of all human rights and fundamental freedoms on the part of States.

      For this right to be effectively applied, a number of conditions need to be fulfilled. Freedom of expression and of opinion must be guaranteed to allow all individuals to debate public affairs and express themselves freely on the choices made by the State. Freedom of conscience and of religion must be ensured. And the importance of free and independent media becomes evident here. The opportunity to participate freely and fully in public life is also indispensable for the exercise of this right.

      A further expression of the right of peoples to self-determination is the holding of free, regular and fair elections, which within the framework of a democratic society allow a country’s nationals to follow and support the action of the political institutions mandated by them to manage their interests and provide for public welfare. In this respect, each individual must be able to benefit from the right to assemble with others to defend his or her convictions. With this in view, the European Union reiterates the importance of promoting and reinforcing the proper management of public affairs, democracy and the rule of law throughout the world. The process of democratisation is an essential stage in the recognition of the right of peoples to self-determination.

      For the European Union, respect for this right cannot be disassociated from respect for the freedom and dignity of the individual and for fundamental human rights. The obligation to promote and protect this right is therefore included in full among the commitments given by States in the field of human rights.

      Thank you.

    43. schrodingers cat says:

      Dave McEwan Hill
      As per spanish law, what the Catalan government did, re the referendum, was illegal and illegitimate. The response by Rajoy was deemed legal, right, proper, morally and democratically acceptable.

      my point was that every country has laws but that i dont live in spain. I live in Scotland. Here, it isnt illegal to hold a referendum, it is illegal for the police to destroy ballot boxes and assault voters because it is immoral to do so.

      to that end, the Catalan referendum was only illegal in the same way that it was legal to gas jews in germany in 1940.

      the moment the spanish military police rubber truncheon collided with the face of that poor Catalan child was the same moment the spanish constitution became worth less than if it had been written in crayon on the inside of a cornflakes box.

      by that measure, here in scotlannd, what the spanish are doing in Catalunya is wrong, both morally and legally. end of

    44. Robert Peffers says:


      Wee warning to Wingers. Today my virus protection programs informed me I had a Trojan on my machine.

      Nothing odd about picking up a Trojan except my only on-line activity yesterday was to spend some time rumbling up the Scotsman zoomers and a very brief visit yesterday, (and this morning), to Wings.

      I made no web searches, had no other email activity than Scotsman replies and no other programs were active.

      It may be just coincidence but I advise anyone who, like myself, visited the Scotsman comment columns in response to the Salmond Take-over bid to do a thorough anti-virus and add-ware scan immediately.

    45. Sunniva says:

      Sedition is defined as an attempt to overthrow the state. I can’t see how Puigdemont and his government are trying to overthrow the Spanish state or government. Rajoy is however overthrowing the Catalonian government.

      It’s indisputable that Puigdemont has acted ‘illegally’ in defying the Spanish constitution. (Whatever one thinks of his actions). But sedition? I can’t see how that charge holds. Neither can I see how his action is criminal. It is surely a civil charge?

    46. Artyhetty says:


      Ah I also thought it was Ohhh Corrbbyyiiin, at first glance! So Labour are OK with fascists in Spain, abusing people and humiliating them. The EU are OK with Spain in breach of human rights, actually allowing the Catalan politicians be physically abused and imprisoned. Sickening to the core.

      What have the Catalans actually done to deserve such hatred and abuse from the Spanish police.
      Imagine, as they did on the day of the referendum, dragging a woman down some stairs, three huge guys in armour, breaking her fingers one by one, and still having any kind of humanity? If they can do that to the people that are supposed to want to be Spanish, what would they do to a real potential enemy. Wonder if they would treat an animal so viciously, oh, wait…

      These gits treat the people of Catalonia like the dirt on their shoes, but expect them to want to stay part of their fascist, nasty parasitic country. It seems that the hatred of others, and othering among some of those in Spain, has festered and never gone away. The state must have done a major, long term propaganda job on the population to make them hate the people they say should not want to escape that hatred and bias.

      The EU needs to get on the case and quick. No civilised collective should allow or accept human rights abuses to take place right under its nose, when they could and should put a stop to it without hesitation.

      Makes you wonder if they would stand by if the UKGov decided to treat Scotland in a similar way. I think they would. A very bad look for the EU.

    47. Sunniva says:

      @David McEwan Hill and Schroedingers cat.

      Yes, there is a distinction between ‘legality’ and ‘legitimacy’. A government’s position can be legal in the sense of being conform to its own laws – yet lack legitimacy, which is a political concept rather than a juristic one.

    48. schrodingers cat says:

      Les Wilson says:
      Rajoy will just rig it, with advice from Cameron no doubt.

      thats my fear. to that end, pressurising the eu to monitor and observe the election on 21dec is the best way of ensuring that rajoys attempts to do this are limited. Catalunya is a bit like scotland in as much as the population is split roughly 50/50 on the issue of indy

      rajoy doesnt need to do much to swing the election.

      the eu’s hands are tied regarding what it can say or do vis a vis catalunya, but i think this is something that it can do, is there any reason that it cannot request this from madrid?

      as i said, the main arguement from the unionists across the eu is that the indy supporters in catalunya are in the minority. as per scot goes pop, i dont think this is true and while rajoy has said he will reject a pro indy majority, i think at that point he will begin to lose support across the world.

      this will be catalunyas best chance of indy and ensuring a fair vote is vital

    49. heedtracker says:

      by that measure, here in scotlannd, what the spanish are doing in Catalunya is wrong, both morally and legally. end of

      That’s not true at all. Police in the EU are not legally permitted to attack defenceless people. Its that simple. Ranks of riot cops in sexy fascist black body armour and battens are no more legally permitted to violently attack people than anyone else.

      This is just part of the real neo fascist horror show, on display here in teamGB and the turds that decide what and where the EU should intervene, aka, this creep,

      Spanish police violence has been both ignored by mass ranks of tory UK media, led and coordinated by usual beeb gimps, and we are now being threatened with same violence, here in Scotland, unless we shut up, vote red and blue tory and BE British.

      Its the UKOK neo fascist double whammy. Just ask some Catalonian firemen.

    50. Artyhetty says:



      Thanks for the warning Robert, haven’t visited Scotsman, but will keep vigilant.

      I once discovered a trojan on an old computer, only because in settings it said I had a video camera connected. The trojan had activated a camera and someone somewhere was freaking watching us! Creepy or what.

      Always keep your camera well covered with thick paper, though I think it’s not poss to disable audio, listening in devices, or whatever. Not being a computer nerd at all. We had to change hard drive last time though. Also as my son advises, keep the internet turned off on your device, if on but not using it.

      So yes, worth keeping an eye out at all times.

    51. schrodingers cat says:

      Alex Salmond in today’s National:

      “if the national movement by consensus were to determine that independent Scottish membership of EFTA, at least as an interim position, was the correct way forward then this dictates the timing of a referendum.

      ooops, another EFTA boy scout 🙂

    52. heedtracker says:


      Guy Verhofstadt?Verified account
      Follow Follow @GuyVerhofstadt

      A “fake independence” is what I call it and I don’t recognize it.
      11:37 AM – 27 Oct 2017

      Guy Verhofstadt?Verified account @GuyVerhofstadt Oct 27

      Replying to @GuyVerhofstadt
      As it is based on a referendum that was not only not constitutional, but lacked fundamental democratic legitimacy.

      So have it Spain’s riot cops, you have an EU green light. I voted Remain, next time, fcuk that shit.

    53. schrodingers cat says:

      heedtracker says:
      Police in the EU are not legally permitted to attack defenceless people. Its that simple

      i’m not sure if their is a specific eu law regards that, unless it is a comment pointing states to uphold international legal convensions but your point is well made heed and actually agrees with mine,

      ie what spain is doing is only legal per spanish law.
      it is illegal in every other respectable democratic country, it is also illegal as per eu and international law, legal conventions that spain is also a signatory to and is at present, breaking

    54. Albert Herring says:

      Seems to me it’s the Spanish constitution that’s illegal.

    55. Sunniva says:

      @Albert Herring, not illegal, but incoherent. It was cobbled together in 1978 and now needs an overhaul. It needs to be revisee more along federal principles like Canada’s if Spain is to survive and its nations have justice.

    56. Alex Clark says:


      It’s easy enough to switch off your camera and microphone and if you do use then for the likes of Skype then just turn them off as I have done.

      In Windows 10 click on the Start button and then select Settings (the little cogwheel icon).

      In the Settings window that opens up, select Privacy.
      Choose Camera from the left side and click the button to change from On to Off.
      Next do exactly the same for microphone. You can always turn them on again if your needs change.

      Too many dodgy geezers out there 🙂

    57. schrodingers cat says:


      we had a discussion last week about who should lead the yes2 campaign, on monday, a front page cover of elaine c smith in the national.

      2 days ago we had a discussion here on the merits of efta/eea/eu membership. this morning alex has an article in the national about the same issue.

      makes you wonder just who is reading folks….

      maybe we shall see, to that end, I would like to see who supports the idea of lobbying the eu to oversee the 21dec election in catalunya, to safe guard the voters and the democratic process. ???

    58. geeo says:

      Here is a random thought.

      Later down the line, might the EU release a statement saying..”if only we had that EU army, we could have stopped the abuses in Catalonia..”

    59. Liz g says:

      geeo @ 1.03
      I don’t think that it’s all that impossible the EU leadership is hanging back over Catilonia.
      To create the demand that the EU be given the power to act.

      I did say in a post a few weeks back that the EU was a trade organisation and could only really flex it’s muscle there.
      But if people really wanted it to act,they would have to allow it the Power to do so…..and the ability to Enforce it’s decisions!
      So they should “be careful what you wish for”. (Not you personally ofcourse)
      I don’t want the EU to have those power’s…even if Scotland is no a member of it.
      Trade is one thing and should be out in the world but Sovereignty stays home.

    60. Alex Clark says:

      James Kelly of Scot Goes Pop has an article in iScot magazine this month that touches on Catalonia. Following a link from SGP to iScot Twitter page I found that iScot have an “advert” for the magazine in the form of a 2 minute video as the pinned tweet.

      The video is by Alex Salmond and he talks of MSM bias in Scotland, it’s a really good wee video, well worth a watch. Buy yourself a subscription for Christmas or give one as a present, it’s a classy magazine and well worth the price of the cover.

    61. Albert Herring says:


      Any constitution which effectively imprisons whole peoples in a state they no longer want to be part of seems pretty illegal to me.

      It’s certainly not compatible with EU membership, or UN for that matter.

    62. Meg merrilees says:


      They could try that line but we have the UN Peace keeping force – don’t we? But I suppose to use that, the UN needs to recognise Catalonia is being wronged….

      Someone asked earlier if there was any news on which countries, Finland etc had taken a pro-Indy-Catalonia stance.

      Seems that the Finnish MP may have a history of being a bit of a lone rebel and there is a tweet from a senior Finnish gov minister who says that the F Gov is def. behind Spain in this situation.

      Found a map which says that the baltic countries, including GB!!! are supporting Catalonia. It then goes on to say that re GB many people, other than the London Government support Catalonia and Scotland definitely does.

    63. Alex Clark says:

      @Liz g

      I’m sure the EU have enough Diplomats in their employ that they surely could have used them to find some kind of path to negotiations that would have allowed Puigdemont to remain at home and campaign in these elections without hindrance.

      They also surely had it withing their power to prevent the jailing and humiliation of members of the Catalan government from being blindfolded, handcuffed behind their back and if reports are to be believed at least two of them stripped naked.

      Humiliation here is the name of the game, yet the EU still remain silent. That’s a disgrace, Rajoy proved what he is capable of when he sent in the Guardia Civil to hit ordinary people with batons, drag them downstairs by the hair and break fingers.

      He is carrying on in exactly the same vein because no one in power will speak out and he believes he can get away with it.

    64. Robert Graham says:

      Good advice -re laptop camera etc a bit of masking tape does the trick unless you feel confident enough to change microsoft’s privacy settings,
      Most laptops have a tiny little hole for the Microphone ,usually just above the “F” keys thats the very top row of buttons on the keyboard , cover that as well unless you use Skype of course .

    65. Dr Jim says:

      I don’t think the EU welcomes anyone in Europe breaking up countries or states right at this moment during Brexit
      But I do think they would welcome Scotland breaking away from the UK if you get my meaning

      Happy for the UK to have troubles internally but not the EU

      Nothing to do with democracy or any rule of law, just simple self preservation of their union the same as England is of their dominion

      In the end it’s to hell with the people, it’s power and winners wot counts and the people are generally the losers whichever way it goes

      Only after you’ve won can you afford to be the nice guy

    66. heedtracker says:

      Later down the line, might the EU release a statement saying..”if only we had that EU army, we could have stopped the abuses in Catalonia..”

      Guy Guy Verhofstadt does want an EU army and airforce. It seemed to make sense, until you see how the shit’s come out against Catalonia. Its not that he’s against it, its that he’s so reactionary, as any red and blue tory roaster here in teamGB.

      We’re now being heavily monstered by likes of Graun and BBC tory reprobates, with Catalonia, as they all pray to the great gods of yoon for Spanish civil war.

      One of the major blocks to an EU super state is ofcourse that the EU is not like say the USA or China, with all EU 27 members clearly very much still individual nation states, in an EU set up, really to stop us all going WW2 again.

      Look at how the EU couldn’t really get the richest EU members to cough up for Greece, for example.

      A giant EU army is probably some way down the line, unless a Trident nuke stoner hits the big red button by accident. That might gel EU war mongering a tad:D

    67. Meg merrilees says:

      John Redwood on R4 Any Questions just said the following when asked by a youth in the audience:

      Do you think the EU referendum will ruin my future or will the gov. negotiate a golden future for us all?


      “You have the right to live in an Independent country which is run by people you elected to represent you…”

      So he’ll not object to a second indy ref for us then!

      Done my best to remember it word for word, hence the italics, but I can’t replay to check the wording – about 13.38pm. — Sorry.
      Double standards again.

    68. Les Wilson says:

      schrodingers cat says:

      I think that impartial monitors need to be installed on the 21st Dec i Catalonia, but not just the EU, Nana had an article on it and it suggested three sets of monitors.

      The UK holds the rights to appoint monitors for our referendum, it is reserved. However I think it is a must, for such monitors to be put in place for Indy2. I have suggested this to the SNP, before Indy1, they said it was a reserved matter.

      To hell with that, if the UK did not allow monitors of International standard, then they would have to explain just why not.
      If we do not want cheated then we must have these people in place.

    69. geeo says:


      I am with you.

      If the EU sit back and do nothing about the clearly facist Spanish actions right in front of them, then that is more reason to deny them an EU army rather than a reason to form one.

      There is no need to invade Spain to stop Rajoy, but there clearly are articles of EU laws and rules etc which could be enacted to suspend Spain and impose trade sanctions upon them, without giving recognition of Catalonia at this point in time.

      Events in Catalonia are no longer to do with the referendum/indy declaration, it is now about the rise of a fascist state within the EU.

      The current appeasement of the rise of fascism in Spain has the same hallmarks of the appeasement of Hitler in the 1930’s.

      The uk government were on the wrong side of history back then as well, originally.

    70. David says:

      @Les Wilson

      In my opinion any government or state that refuses impartial monitoring may as well just say ‘We will cheat and we don’t want to be caught doing it.’


    71. Liz g says:

      Alex Clark @ 1.37
      That was kind of my point Alex…. sorry I wasn’t very clear.
      As a trade block it has huge influence and therefore some power,and there are many ways that it could have protected it’s citizens.
      But yet it hangs back!

      Therefore it could be argued that the EU is trying to create the demand for some sort of power to intervene domestically in it’s members state’s.
      Something like the UN has with it’s “Peace Keeping” force.

      I would never argue that the European Union won’t take watchin,and,that it need reforming.
      Scotland knows to her cost how bad a political Union can be.
      I only say that it is a worthwhile project that could be good and can be reformed!

      The UK Union is not and if it can’t work for Scotland after three hundred odd year’s it never will.
      When it’s dead the best thing to do is bury it and the Westminster Union is definitely dead.
      The EU Union is at this point in time only wounded.. I think?

    72. mike d says:

      Meg merrilees john redwood,you have the right to live in an independent country which is run by people you elected to represent you…..AS LONG AS IT ISNT THE SNP.

    73. Abulhaq says:

      The Catalan question has been a god-send to unionists, whether of the left or the right, who may now gaily throw the Scottish question into the pot, add choice ingredients of their own, stir and dish up as an example of the kind of noxious fare ’nationalists’ would force feed the happy, harmonious, venerable nation states of old Europe.
      Imperial powers, the British and their imitators in particular, have a blind spot when it comes to what constitutes the nation, confecting countries when it suits their interests eg Belgium, Iraq and wagging the punitive finger when it doesn’t eg Kurdistan, Biafra, Tibet and now Catalonia.
      It is unlikely things will get better with President Trump and new emperor Xi soon to meet to carve out their respective planetary spheres of influence and exploitation. Capitalists love uniformity, hate diversity. ‘Minority’ cultures and languages are a real pain. One language, one system, one mega luxury shopping mall. The future’s Dubai!

    74. geeo says:

      If the Section 30 is a temporary devolving of power to the Scottish government to hold and run a referendum, then surely the power to request international monitors is devolved with it ?

      Perhaps the SG of the day felt they would not need monitors as the uk gov appeared to be playing “fair” ?

    75. Les Wilson says:

      David says

      Exactly so David, that is why I said if they refuse Independent monitors they would need to say why not.

    76. Dr Jim says:

      I’m sorry but I’ve been listening to Robin McAlpine’s herbal tea and raffia solution to Independence direct from the second hand dusty bookstore of Tweedyness where a full staff of two ladies with their spectacles on a string are waiting to answer all queries with a leaflet on non confrontational discourse and a suggestion to go yoga chanting Ummn Peace and felicitations please vote Yes, Oh you don’t want to, that’s fine then have a nice day

      Aye right Robin I’m all stirred up and ready to go

    77. heedtracker says:

      geeo says:
      4 November, 2017 at 1:56 pm

      I am with you.

      If the EU sit back and do nothing about the clearly facist Spanish actions right in front of them, then that is more reason to deny them an EU army rather than a reason to form one.”

      Fundamentally, it doesnt matter what we think about the EU now, as Scots. Scotland is a region of the UK and that means what Scots think or want to happen is completely irrelevant, both in this farce UK and ofcourse now out of the EU.

      Its what my Slovene girlfriend for example, campaigned so long and hard for, 2014, at the BetterTogether Ljubljana branch. He now has infinitely more say in his Scotland region, than all of us put together too, without actually being elected. To the barricades, yoons of Slovenia:D

      Adam Tomkins MSP?Verified account @ProfTomkins Oct 26

      In the Scottish Pmt we ask the Scottish First Minister about Audit Scotland’s report on the Scottish NHS. FM’s answer: “In England…” #FMQs

    78. CameronB Brodie says:

      Fascism isn’t only abhorrent it’s insidious. Moderate Scots should take note.

      The Impact of Social Threat on Worldview and Ideological Attitudes


      Research has shown that social threat correlates with ideological authoritarianism, but the issues of causal direction and specificity of threat to particular ideological attitudes remain unclear. Here, a theoretical model is proposed in which social threat has an impact on authoritarianism specifically, with the effect mediated through social worldview. The model was experimentally tested with a sample of undergraduates who responded to one of three hypothetical scenarios describing a future New Zealand that was secure, threatening, or essentially unaltered. Both threat and security influenced social worldview, but only threat influenced authoritarianism, with differential effects on two factorially distinct subdimensions (conservative and authoritarian social control attitudes) and with the effects of threat mediated through worldview. There was a weak effect of threat on social dominance that was entirely mediated through authoritarianism. The findings support the proposed theoretical model of how personal and social contextual factors causally affect people’s social worldviews and ideological attitudes.

      Right wing authoritarianism, social dominance orientation and the dimensions of generalized prejudice


      Prior research suggests that individuals’ prejudiced attitudes form a single generalized dimension predicted by Right Wing Authoritarianism (RWA) and Social Dominance Orientation (SDO). A dual process approach, however, expects different domains of generalized prejudice that relate differentially to RWA and SDO. To test this, 212 participants rated attitudes to 24 typically disliked groups. Factor analysis revealed three distinct generalized prejudice dimensions. Hierarchical Linear Modelling indicated that attitudes towards a ‘dangerous’ groups domain was significantly related only with RWA, attitudes toward a second ‘derogated’ groups domain was related only to SDO, and attitudes toward a third, ‘dissident’ groups, domain was significantly related to both, but powerfully with RWA and weakly with SDO. These findings have implications for explaining and reducing prejudice. Copyright © 2006 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

      Authoritarianism and National Identity: Examining the Longitudinal Effects of SDO and RWA on Nationalism and Patriotism.


      The resurgence of right-wing political parties across the globe raises questions about the origins of national identity. Based on the Dual Process Model of Ideology and Prejudice, we argue that people’s tendency to submit to ingroup authorities (Right-Wing Authoritarianism [RWA]) and preference for group-based hierarchy (Social Dominance Orientation [SDO]) underlie people’s belief in the superiority of their nation (nationalism) and attachment to their homeland (patriotism). We examine these hypotheses using three waves of data from an annually conducted national longitudinal panel study of New Zealanders ( N = 3,838). As predicted, RWA had positive cross-lagged effects on nationalism and patriotism. Conversely, SDO had a positive cross-lagged effect on nationalism, but a negative cross-lagged effect on patriotism. Little evidence of reciprocal cross-lagged effects (i.e., national identity on authoritarianism) was found. These results demonstrate that nationalism and patriotism are related, albeit distinct, ways of identifying with one’s nation that are ultimately rooted in authoritarianism.

    79. george wood says:

      “Les Wilson says:
      4 November, 2017 at 1:49 pm

      schrodingers cat says:

      I think that impartial monitors need to be installed on the 21st Dec i Catalonia, but not just the EU, Nana had an article on it and it suggested three sets of monitors.

      The UK holds the rights to appoint monitors for our referendum, it is reserved. However I think it is a must, for such monitors to be put in place for Indy2. I have suggested this to the SNP, before Indy1, they said it was a reserved matter.

      To hell with that, if the UK did not allow monitors of International standard, then they would have to explain just why not.
      If we do not want cheated then we must have these people in place.”

      I think you are getting a bit carried away here.

      The UK state didn’t fiddle the Indyref1 vote or the EU ref vote so I’m not sure why you think they would do so for Indyref2.

      You are maybe confusing underhand campaigning tatics with vote rigging. The UK certainly indulged in the former but not in the latter.

    80. Alex Clark says:

      Today eight members of the Catalan government woke up in a prison cell for the “crime” of allowing the people of Catalonia a vote on Self Determination. Just imagine if the following politicians were langusihing in a London prison for doing the same.

      Alex Salmond
      John Swinney
      Derek McKay
      Shona Robison
      Fiona Hyslop
      Angela Constance
      Fergus Ewing
      Humza Yousaf

      Not credible is it? Yet that is the reality of what is happening in Spain right now. Where’s Nicola Sturgeon on the list? Well I too would sought sanctuary from a brutal state from where she could continue the fight. Which is what Puigdemont has been forced to do.

      Spain is not in any way acting like a fascist government if you believe the UK media and especially the BBC, now is it?

    81. heedtracker says:

      Not credible is it?

      No because Scotland is a sovereign nation, in a union, with her neighbour England.

      Rock swipes on soon, so hopefully he’ll explain why Scotland has no sovereignty.

      One thing is shit sure, indy ref2 really is going to be a massive test of Scottish nation state sovereignty.

      Like all Law, we wont really know about the actual sovereignty of and for Scots and Scotland is, in this farce union, until its tested.

    82. geeo says:

      @george wood.

      If you believe the postal voting system was not abused during indyref1 then you need to go take your meds and have a wee rest.

      Ruth Davidson ADMITTED illegally sampling those postal votes which were sent to ENGLAND ffs…!!

    83. Alex Clark says:

      Also two non politicians also find themselves in jail as organisers of the Catalan Indepndence movement.

      Jail time too for the Rev and wee Ginger Dug, it’s funny but I’m not laughing 🙁

    84. heedtracker says:

      Ruth Davidson ADMITTED illegally sampling those postal votes which were sent to ENGLAND ffs…!!

      Its highly unlikely anyone tampered with the 2014 postal ballot papers.

      What did happen was, our imperial masters were there as each postal ballot was opened and examined, legally, by the EC ballot counters, and watched by tories etc.

      Then they came out with the Vow shyste.

      No that cant be right, the postal votes were majority NO, Colonel Ruth announced the historic 2014 Scottish independence referendum result, on the beeb gimp network, to a live studio audience, even before polls stations closed their doors.


      Never trust a tory. Especially not a Colonel tory, like Colonel Ruth, I mean why would the British Army promote the leader of the Scottish haha Cons, to the rank of Colonel, in their army?

      As Spain riot cops wallop the living day lights out of elderly Catalonians, Catalonian teens, women, girls, and the whole of the EU, UK establishment look the other, wholeheartedly back the brave riot cops of Spain.

    85. Alex Clark says:

      The Scottish nationalists’ Catalan dilemma

      Scottish nationalists and Catalan secessionists have long made common cause. The colorful Catalan flags that have appeared in many Scottish windows reflect a growing concern among nationalists. But Sturgeon’s party, with its own independence ambitions in mind, is wary of antagonizing Madrid. If a future independent Scotland wants a smooth passage back into the European Union, it will need all the friends it can get among member countries.

      We can have the single market and free movement without the EU, Scotland does NOT need Rajoy and Spanish parliament approval.

      EFTA looking like a better option everyday, got rid of the scare stories of the “Spanish veto”, “you’ll need to join the Euro” and “you’ll be at the back of the queue” in one fell swoop.

      Something I now believe Westminster would be terrified of when it comes to IndyRef2.

    86. Bob p says:

      Postal voting was definitely abused during indy ref 14. No exit polls taken either,mass influx of holiday home owners in that neutral observers,the whole think stunk.

    87. geeo says:


      It seems to me that the reason why the WM gov will agree absolutely to a Section 30 order at the official request (and worth remembering such a request has NOT been made as yet) of the SG, is exactly to avoid Sovereignty of the Scottish people being tested in the RELEVENT court (not the recently convened english supreme court).

      Imagine the scenario where TM says No to a Section 30 order…and the SG takes the question of Scots people’s sovereignty to the relevent Court.

      It is a slam dunk. Scottish people’s sovereignty is embedded within current Acts and treaties of the union ffs.

      A court could only find with the people here.

      What could this mean for the union ?

      Well, it could result in…

      1. the SG calling for a simple vote in Holyrood to end the union, based on that Parliament representing the views of the Sovereign Scottish People.

      2. It could mean the calling of a Holyrood election to act as a defacto referendum.

      Or 3. It could result in WM offering to agree to an indyref with a Section 30 order.

      Of course, if WM is dragged to court for denying democracy in the first place by refusing the Section 30 request, then the SG would be under no obligation to indulge WM in option 3, above.

      Which leaves option 1 or 2.

      With a current electoral AND Parliamentary mandate in favour of independence/holding a referendum, then arguably, a simple vote would represent a reasonable route to end the union, as option 2 requires gaining a mandate which has already been given by the Sovereign Scottish People.

      That is exactly why WM will absolutely not refuse a Section 30 order.

    88. schrodingers cat says:

      spot on,
      i think it was heed who said yesterday that this tact, along with the pound scots will “ring fence” our argument

      and you are right, this terrifies the yoons.
      it is the winning ticket and it is being accepted more and more by the yes campaign, even on wings

    89. heedtracker says:

      geeo says:
      4 November, 2017 at 2:55 pm

      But the fact is, we can’t really be certain about Scottish sovereignty, until it is tested. Well its not a fact. Look at how whatshisface Carmichael flumped out of the High Court in Embro, a free man, and once again regular talking head on the grand old beeb gimp network too, to boot

    90. george wood says:

      “geeo says:
      4 November, 2017 at 2:34 pm

      @george wood.

      If you believe the postal voting system was not abused during indyref1 then you need to go take your meds and have a wee rest.

      Ruth Davidson ADMITTED illegally sampling those postal votes which were sent to ENGLAND ffs…!!”

      Both sides were estimating votes from the postal votes as they were going through the usual process.
      Ruth Davidson was stupid enough to admit it as you are not supposed to do it.

    91. schrodingers cat says:


      brittany supports catalunya de norde (perpignan region of south france) right for self determination.

      ca commence 🙂

    92. Albert Herring says:

      Ruth Davidson knew the postal vote result because she’d been told by Cameron and/or her MI5 handlers. They didn’t think she would be so stupid as to blurt it out.

    93. Meg merrilees says:

      Alex Clark

      If the Rev and the Dug are arrested for fomenting Independence then I reckon most of us will be on that list too.

      Am I worried – NO!

      Scotland’s independence is worth it.

    94. Jock Scot says:

      Excellent Chris
      This has to be kept in the public eye.

      Ninja Penguin came up with these lyrics


    95. Meg merrilees says:

      Alex Clark @ 2.27

      Spain’s Foreign minister just made a statement this week calling for the immediate release of all political prisoners in VENEZUELA!!!

      Take the plank out of your own eye -Spain.

    96. cirsium says:

      @schrodingers cat, 11.13

      “It was illegal as per Ukrainian Law for Putin to annex Crimea but that didnt stop Putin”

      It was illegal as per Ukrainian Law for the elected government of Ukraine to be overthrown by a violent coup. The new, unelected government ignored the Ukrainian constitution. The Crimean devolved parliament did not recognise the illegal government. The EU did.

      The Russian Federation did not annex Crimea. The Crimeans held a referendum and voted to secede and return to Russia. This was the third referendum which they had held on this issue since the break-up of the USSR. The Ukrainian government had refused to release the results of the earlier referendums.

      I’ve seen Youtube videos of the Crimean referendum. It was calm, civilised. The contrast between this referendum and the October Catalan referendum is stark.

    97. Jack Murphy says:

      Off Topic.
      Scottish Independence Event in Usher Hall.
      Jonathon Shafi speaking at the mo.
      It’s a Full House!
      3 other speakers to follow…..

      Independence Live:

    98. Les Wilson says:

      george wood says:

      There was much more wrong in Indy1 than just the votes, black money was flooding into Scotland to assist ” Better together”, ” No Borders” and other things. Then there was huge propaganda within AND outwith the “Purdah” period.

      Scottish big Business leaders invited to Downing Street and asked to help the “No” campaign. Too many things. The BBC and English media (who pretend to be Scottish) in fact all media outlets were involved, because as you will know Scotland has no home grown media, the propaganda was huge and also in the joke ” purdah” Look at the Vow or lie as we can say. So you cannot say it was not well rigged against us. Not on any level. It sure was.

      If we do not do something about it, like bring in Monitors of International standing, we WILL be cheated again.

    99. Meg merrilees says:

      Schrodinger 12.44

      UN ruling says it is illegal to use force against your own people – also says all peoples have a right to self determination.

      Made the point before that if the Catalonians are a nation then they have a right to self determination within the UN.
      If, as Rahoy says, Spain is all one people within the UN, then he acted illegally on October 1st by using force against his own people. Not sure if current behaviour – deposing gov and jailing etc is ‘the use of force’ as they voluntarily presented themselves to Court. Is there such a thing as political/judicial force?

      Basically they can be held for 4 months pending trial but Liz Castro retweeted the point yest. that only the Spanish Supreme Court can hear a charge of Sedition/rebellion – so if the court which has accused them did not have the jurisdiction to hear that charge, are they being held in jail illegally?

    100. CameronB Brodie says:

      A propensity towards fascism is hard-wired into some of us and is intrinsically linked with personality and morality.

      Right-Wing Authoritarianism and Social Dominance Orientation


      Extending previous research on the relation of Big-Five personality with right-wing authoritarianism and social dominance orientation, we examined the relationships of Big-Five facet scores rather than factor scores. The results (N = 332) of stepwise regression analyses showed that Openness to Experience was the only significant predictor of right-wing authoritarianism at the factor level, whereas Values and Ideas were significant predictors at the facet level. A similar analysis of social dominance orientation showed that Agreeableness and Openness to Experience contributed significantly to the prediction at the factor level, whereas Tender-Mindedness and Values were the best significant predictors at the facet level. The prediction based on facet scores was more accurate than the prediction based on factor scores. A random split of the sample confirmed the robustness of the findings. The results are discussed against the background of the personality and the social psychology approaches to explaining individual differences in prejudice.

      Social brains and divides: the interplay between social dominance orientation and the neural sensitivity to hierarchical ranks


      Ubiquitous in the animal kingdom, dominance hierarchies emerge through social competition and underlie the control of resources. Confronting the disruptive influence of socioeconomic inequalities, human populations tend to split into groups who legitimize existing dominance hierarchies and groups who condemn them. Here, we hypothesized that variations in the neural sensitivity to dominance ranks partly underpins this ideological split, as measured by the social dominance orientation scale (SDO). Following a competitive task used to induce dominance representations about three opponents (superior, equal and inferior), subjects were passively presented the faces of these opponents while undergoing fMRI. Analyses demonstrated that two key brain regions, the superior temporal sulcus (STS) and anterior dorsolateral prefrontal cortex (aDLPFC) were sensitive to social ranks. Confirming our hypothesis, the sensitivity of the right aDLPFC to social ranks correlated positively with the SDO scale, which is known to predict behaviors and political attitudes associated with the legitimization of dominance hierarchies. This study opens new perspectives for the neurosciences of political orientation and social dominance….

      Effects of social dominance orientation and right-wing authoritarianism on corrupt intention: The role of moral outrage.


      Previous research suggested that dominance orientation and authoritarianism may be associated with corruption, but little research has verified this assumption or uncovered its psychological processes. In this article, we examined empirically the relationships between social dominance orientation (SDO), right-wing authoritarianism (RWA) and corrupt intention and explored the mediating role of moral outrage on these relationships. A total of 677 college students participated in the study and completed measures of SDO, RWA, moral outrage and corrupt intention. Our findings demonstrated that both SDO and RWA were positively associated with corrupt intention. Additionally, moral outrage partially mediated the relation between SDO and corrupt intention and fully mediated the relation between RWA and corrupt intention. Specifically, the results indicated that higher SDO or RWA was associated with reduced moral outrage and increased corrupt intention. This implies that the enhancement of morality and moral outrage may inhibit corrupt intention.

    101. Alex Clark says:

      @Meg merrilees

      Can’t say I’m surprised at the Spanish foreign minister calling for the release of Venezuelan political prisoners.

      Rank hypocrites, liars and fascists to boot. Yeah “boot” sums them up.

    102. Robert Graham says:

      o/t – watching the Independence convention from the Usher hall just now many fine speakers, until I hear the radical left in the guise of Jonathan Shafi & the Greens giving their views, I suppose all have to be welcomed even with arms length scepticism, remember the last Holyrood election, it wasn’t Ruth that posed the problem it was our apparent friends , arms length acceptance I believe.

    103. CameronB Brodie says:

      @ David Torrance
      I told you I was well informed, highly motivated and experienced in ways you couldn’t imagine. Are you still a dick?

      Social psychology sheds light on Trump’s appeal

      Authoritarianism and social dominance orientation

      Authoritarianism as a syndrome is characterized by deference to authority, aggression toward outgroups, a rigidly hierarchical view of the world, and resistance to new experiences, according to Pettigrew, an expert on racism and intergroup relations whose scholarship has led the field of social psychology for more than five decades.

      “Authoritarianism is typically triggered by threat and fear, and authoritarians tend to view the world as a very dangerous and threatening place,” writes Pettigrew, adding that it typically begins early in life as an aspect of personality and leads to some form of right-wing political ideology.

      Social dominance orientation is marked by a preference for social hierarchy and domination over lower-status groups. People who exhibit this preference tend to be driven, disagreeable, and relatively uncaring seekers of power. They describe themselves as motivated by self-interest and self-indulgence.

      The Psychological Roots of Populist Voting: Evidence from the United States, the Netherlands and Germany

      What are the psychological roots of support for populist parties or outfits such as the Tea Party, the Dutch Freedom Party or Germany’s Die Linke? Populist parties have as common denominator that they employ an anti-establishment message, which they combine with some ‘host’ ideology. Building on the congruency model of political preference we expect that a voter’s personality should match with the message and position of her party. We theorize that a low score on the personality trait Agreeableness matches with the anti-establishment message and should predict voting for populist parties. We find evidence for this hypothesis in the United States, the Netherlands and Germany. The relationship between low Agreeableness and voting for populist parties is robust controlling for other personality traits, authoritarianism, socio-demographic characteristics and ideology. Thus, explanations of the success of populism should take personality traits into account.

      Social dominance theory and the dynamics
      of intergroup relations: Taking stock
      and looking forward

      This chapter reviews the last 15 years of research inspired by social dominance theory, a general theory of societal group-based inequality. In doing so, we sketch the broad outlines of the theory and discuss some of the controversies
      surrounding it, such as the ‘‘invariance hypothesis’’ regarding gender differences in social dominance orientation (SDO) and the effect of social context on the expression of SDO. We also discuss the central role of gender in the construction and maintenance of group-based inequality, and review some of the new research inspired by the social dominance perspective. Finally, we identify and discuss
      some of the most important theoretical questions posed by social dominance theory that are yet to be researched.

    104. george wood says:

      ” Les Wilson says:
      4 November, 2017 at 3:32 pm

      If we do not do something about it, like bring in Monitors of International standing, we WILL be cheated again.”

      The biggest problem we faced was media bias asnd the biggest problem we will face in Indyref2 will be media bias.

      International monitors can’t do anything about that and would be a waste of time.

      Of course, we could do something about that by buying The National and make it the biggest selling daily.

      However, too many people on here would rather see the demise of The Herald than achieve Independence.

    105. Andy-B says:

      Another cracker Chris.


      According to the media the Belgian authorities have sixty days to act upon an arrest warrant.

      Also a country can reject a EU arrest warrant if it fears that extradition would violate the “suspect’s” human rights. Looking at Spain’s violent handling of the Oct 1st vote one could easily agree that Puigdemont’s wellbeing could be at risk if returned to Spain.

      There is an agreed EU list of 32 offences, however, neither “sedition” nor “rebellion” – two of the Spanish accusations against the Catalan leaders – are on that list.

    106. manandboy says:

      O/T Compare the language and style in the following text with what this Tory Government puts out.
      Never trust a Tory.

      “The CBI’s recent monthly retail survey showed high street sales were falling at their fastest rate since the height of the recession in 2009 as struggling households put the brakes on spending. The grim reading chimes with new figures from Ipsos Retail Performance’s shopper tracker which showed a 9.1% drop in shopping centre footfall in October, compared with a year ago.

      “The UK high street is going through the wringer just now, and the last thing retailers need now is for ongoing demand to soften significantly,” said Dr Tim Denison, director of retail intelligence at Ipsos Retail Performance.”

    107. Les Wilson says:

      Looks like the broadband has been pulled at the convention, before the Catalonian rep could finish.

    108. Iain mhor says:

      The topic of postal votes brought to mind the disconnect, which always played on my mind.
      The UK GE eligibility for overseas UK citizens allowed to vote, against the 2014 indyref, resident only.
      Does anyone know if Cameron (I think) ever abolished the 15 year rule? I believe there was a call for it to be “Votes for life” at one point.
      Anyway, every time I hear ‘Brexit votes’ & ‘G.E’ votes trumped the Indyref vote and there was a greater majority/ mandate (fill in the blank) statistically – I keep thinking aye really?
      There was a huge voting bloc of non-residents being counted statistically for the UK wide votes. We didn’t.

      So, I just wondered (statistically) with overseas postal voting stripped out of the equation, just what the G.E results would have looked like.
      It’s something to possibly rebutt all the ‘Tory revival /the majority of Scots don’t want Indy or Indyref2 stuff which is spouted.
      Maybe it’s been analysed already and I missed it?

    109. Vestas says:

      In case nobody has suggested it, take a look at labels on food/wine & if the country of origin is Spain then buy something else.

      In this world we live in there seems to be bugger all you can do than choose to spend your money elsewhere to force change.

      Before anyone says “this will hurt Catalans too” then perhaps you should look 30-40 years back when the same was said about South Africa.

    110. Robert Graham says:

      o/t – A School in Berkshire has recreated and set fire to a replica of their Graf Spee , oh f/k I give up ,what’s with this obsession with the war , its is really very creepy reminiscing of so much death and destruction , by all means show respect for the dead, but FFS is this way, I imagine Dads Army will be resurrected and possibly updated .

    111. Moonlight says:

      I´ll say it again.
      Catalunia straddles one of the two roads out of Spain.
      The other,passes through the mountains of Pais Basco.
      The remainder of the peninsula is extremly vulnerable to the disruption of export traffic on these two roads.
      If Catalunya were to be out of the EU, then at best Spanish exports would be subject to TIR rules, additional inspections and other delays. Then the same goods would have to leave non EU Catalunya and enter EU France.
      This may partly explain Spain´s paranoia, other than the oft quoted fascism.
      Strategically the Catalans occupy a very strong position and they know it.
      Think M6, A1 for Scottish traffic to England and beyond. At least we could quickly reinstate Rosyth – Continent ferries. Come to think of it, we may have to do that anyway.

    112. Capella says:

      You could buy Estrella beer though. It’s made in Barcelona. Our local Co-Op is sold out – hope they’ve ordered more.

    113. galamcennalath says:

      I note Redwood’s website is titled “John Redwood’s Diary | Speaking for England”.

      Fair enough, no pretensions about speaking for the UK. He’s an English nationalist and doesn’t hide it.

    114. Al Dossary says:

      @Ian Mhor,

      re Non-Dom expats voting, there was an online poll in the “Gulf News” about 1 week before the referendum that was about 80:20 in favour of independance.

      However, the biggest elephants in the room are, as before the WATP/1690/FTP brigade and our Yoonist economic retirees.

      Add this to the non-stop drip,drip of SNP bad and I fear we are still no better off now than in Sept 2014 number wis.

      I will say one thing though, if I were leader of Labour, Fib Dems or SNP I would be pressing a 3 line whip for every single mp to use their private members bill to push for 16yo voting. Shame those heartless bastards into allowing a vote on it.

    115. gus1940 says:

      Last night’s HIGNFY kept to the program’s fine old tradition of making snide anti SNP/Scotland attacks with a film clip in the intro which had nothing whatsoever to do with the rest of the program’s content.

    116. Effijy says:

      Yet again Chris, a brilliant cartoon.
      Your picture paints a thousand words
      and nails those fascist Spanish turds.

      Was in Asda today looking for grapes but unfortunately
      they came from Spain.

      They can sit there and rot as far as I’m concerned.

      Viva Catalonia!

    117. Andy-B says:

      If the Belgian courts decides Puigdemont has a case to answer, his lawyer has said the whole affair could take two months to reach a conclusion.

      However if Puigdemont decides at a later date, (say a month or so) to seek political asylum in Belgium, then you cannot be extradited from the territory whilst the asylum process is ongoing.

    118. Iain mhor says:

      @Al Dossary
      Yeah, I always thought it odd the “Votes for Life” movement.
      You’d expect a democracy to be pushing the opposite line and abolishing the non-dom rule. I quite expect the numbers have been crunched and the expat voting bloc is heavily influencing UK election results. I recall big Conservative lobbying in South Africa.
      I don’t think re-instating it here would do us any favours anyway. Hardly a democratic process either.
      Certainly see the argument for shorter term, Job migration etc. but 15 years (or is it life now?) You’ve pretty much emigrated by any definition.
      I must look up the numbers some time.

    119. CameronB Brodie says:

      Re. the rule of law. Madrid has lost all sense of constitutional morality. Thankfully, I don’t think London has the same mentality for open fascism.

      Law and Morality

      Law and freedom

      Both law and morality imply human freedom. Clearly, without freedom one cannot speak of morality. But the same holds for law, for if it were automatically and not freely obeyed, men would be mere robots. Law is not a simple indication of what happens, such as the law of physics; it is an admonition to free persons about what they are required to do if they wish to live freely and responsibly in society; and it normally carries with it a sanction or punishment to be imposed on whoever is shown to have acted against given norms of conduct. Just law, properly understood, appeals to freedom.

      Nevertheless one of the most generalized liberal ideas is that law is by nature the enemy of freedom. Servais Pinckaers holds that Catholic moralists have gone through many centuries under the influence of this mentality which has led, by reaction, to the anti-law approach of much of contemporary moral theology. In this view, law and freedom were seen as “two opposed poles, law having the effect of limitation and imposing itself on freedom with the force of obligation. Freedom and law faced each other as two proprietors in dispute over the field of human actions. The moralists commonly said, “Law governs this act, freedom governs that one…” The moralists were traditionally the representatives of the moral law, and their mission was to show to conscience how to apply it in a particular situation, in a “case of conscience”. Today we witness a strong tendency to invert the roles; the moralists now regard themselves as defenders of freedom and of personal conscience” [as against the law] [3].

      Constitutional Morality
      Constitutional morality is important for constitutional laws to be effective. Without constitutional morality, the operation of a constitution tends to become arbitrary, erratic, and capricious. This chapter discusses constitutional morality in India, makes a distinction between ‘constitutional democracy’ and ‘populist democracy’, and argues that democracy has survived in India by moving away from the ideal of a constitutional democracy towards a more populist form. It looks at the Emergency of 1975–7 to show the connection between anarchy and the abuse of power as two forces that are both antithetical to constitutional morality. It also examines the link between constitutional morality and the principle of civil disobedience, which under the leadership of Mahatma Gandhi became the cornerstone of India’s nationalist movement.

      Particular Values and Critical Morality

      In this paper I consider and criticize the following position: a community is entitled to uphold and enforce its own distinctive mores,norms, and standards through the agency of the law, even though thisenforcement may seem undesirable from the wider point of view of liberal morality or moral philosophy. According to this view, which isoften labeled “communitarianism,” a community is entitled to do this forthe sake of its own moral and cultural particularity, and in order to preserve its unique identity, its boundaries and its heritage.


      When someone is condemned for violating the moral norms of hercommunity, one typical response-which I shall call the liberalresponse-is to subject those norms to critical evaluation, and askwhether they embody just and desirable standards for the regulation of human conduct.

    120. Moonlight says:

      Don’t forget that around 95% of Cava is produced in Catalunya.
      Forget the Prossecco for a while and support Catalunya.
      You can’t go wrong with either Freixnet (pronunciation challenge)
      or Cordoníu

    121. mike d says:

      Agree with all dossary 5.44. What will be our main obstacle to independence will be the ‘follow follow brigade and the yer’s (yoon economic retirees). Along of course with their “friends” at the msm.

    122. mike d says:

      Sorry,al dossary.

    123. Legerwood says:

      Channel 4 news reporting the resignation of a Scottish Government Minister, Mark McDonnell, think that was the name.

    124. Legerwood says:

      Sorry, Mark McDonald was the minister

    125. PictAtRandom says:

      ” Jock Scot says:
      4 November, 2017 at 3:20 pm

      Excellent Chris
      This has to be kept in the public eye.

      Ninja Penguin came up with these lyrics


      They’re learnin to fly, but they ain’t got Wings.

    126. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Resignations all over the place, but this toad stays in place.

      Most of us are familiar with the David Porter Frenchgate interview with Mundell, but I hadn’t heard this other interview before – quite literally the worst liar I’ve ever heard, utterly ridiculous performance.

      Why the actual fuck hasn’t *he* resigned?

    127. Alex Clark says:

      Wings night out next Saturday night on 11/11 at Jolly’s Hotel Broughty Ferry DD5 2BJ. Meet from around 19:00. Totally informal just drop in.

      All welcome of course and a good place to be if you fancy something a bit different from what usually takes your fancy on a Saturday night.

      Come and meet some of those that you have read posts from whether you agree or disagree with them, most are quite thicked skinned and will take any and all criticism without taking offence. Plenty of good discussion is guaranteed.

      If you plan staying overnight check out first the website at

      Some doubles still available for Saturday night at £59 for two adults, very nice hotel that not long ago had a £1m refurbishment so a bargain. There are plenty of other small hotels and B&B’s in the area so check around.

      Dundee as you all know was the largest YES voting region in Scotland so you can be sure of a friendly welcome, there has been a successful Wings night out here in May 2014 and another is long overdue. Hope you can make it, let’s keep this going.

    128. K.A.Mylchreest says:

      Spot on as always! I wonder what he will turn to next to fuel the flames?

    129. meg merrilees says:

      Robert Graham:

      Quaint english custom.

      Do you remember a few years back that there was an effigy of Apex Salmond burned on a bonfire in Lewes? – or somewhere near the south coast.

      Guy Fawkes or more often called ‘Bonfire Night’ in England is much more widely observed than up here. The amount of fireworks burnt and the smoke and haze by 10pm each night of the weekend was astonishing. Mind you, where I lived there was quite a large population who celebrated Diwali about now as well so they probably caused some of it.

      ——-Yes I see our first SNP minister has resigned. I suppose they’re reprinting the Sunday headlines as we speak and now we’ll really see someone being ‘ figuratively’ burned atop the bonfire.

      Oh well, I don’t suppose there’s any real news to report in the world just now, is there? and all the squirrels will be hibernating…

    130. Alex Clark says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      That’s a beauty! Just listening to it makes we squirm urghh.

      “We’ve got to demonstrate our honesty and integrate and that’s the way to restore public trust in politics”

      And all the through the interview he was lying through his teeth.

    131. mike d says:

      Aye meg it was in lewes they burned an effigy of Alex .I bet the cowardly b*****s wouldnt be so quick to burn one of Mohammed.

    132. Liz g says:

      Alex Clarke @ 8.06
      RE..the wing’s night..
      Do ye have any parking information?

    133. Dawn in NL says:

      Richard Murphy has posted a table on his latest blog post that I am fairly sure comes from the wings site. If someone can find it, could you post a link for Richard on his blog post. Thanks.

    134. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Alex Clark –

      You’ll have seen the following umpteen times,m but I’m linking it for the benefit of those who haven’t. It’s the original Porter/Mundell clip from Politics Scotland as it appeared right here in WOS.

      This piece is only 1m 10 secs long, but it is probably one of the most damning minutes ever recorded in Scottish politics, and not just because it exposes Mundell as a blatant and not-very-good liar. I’ve watched this dozens of times since it first appeared and every time I see it I’m more convinced than ever that Mundell did not realise what allies he has inside the BBC, or the relationship was, for some reason, under threat – it’s as plain as day that neither Porter nor the host/guest were expecting Mundell to do anything other than bat away the question. Instead, he tried to cover his arse ‘legally’ and handed them a boiling hot potato which they weren’t expecting and really didn’t know what to do with. Did any of them ever follow-up on Mundell’s evasiveness?

      Check the body-language, especially back in the studio –

    135. HandandShrimp says:

      We already knew that there were a couple of names in the frame for potential SNP inappropriate behaviour. It is important that the nettle is grasped firmly and quickly, deal with the situation and then ensure it is clear that there has to be a change in attitude across the board.

      This whole scandal looks set to run for some time so there is no point in prevarication. I think the London press scent bigger Westminster fish than a junior Holyrood Minister who doesn’t seem to have any actual accusers yet or any suggestion of criminal behaviour. The Sundays have far more substantial cases to deal with.

      It will get seriously weird if we have dozens of MPs/MSPs stepping down without any actual accusations or suggestion of criminal behaviour. A sort of Mao style self criticism whereby we have politicians throwing themselves into exile in a bout of collective guilt.

    136. Rock says:


      “The EU isn’t covering itself in glory siding with the Spanish government, but at the same time, I wonder whether the instability in Spain at large would be greater or lesser had the EU embraced Catalonia and suffered Spain throwing tantrums against Europe. Sadly, that’s not how it’s reading… the EU doesn’t seem conflicted or reluctant in its support for Spain. It genuinely sees the peaceful Catalonians as the agitators and Spanish as defenders.”

      It is clear to almost everyone posting here that the EU has openly and disgracefully sided itself with the fascist Spanish state.

      Except for those stuck in the “independence supporting” The National bubble:

      Dave McEwan Hill (1st November – “Playing by Madrid Rules”):

      “The EU has pointed out that the Spanish Government judges the referendum illegal and the EU has made no statement that Catalonia is not welcome in the EU. The notion that the EU would prevent an independent Catalonia being a member is absurd.”

    137. Croompenstein says:

      What is it Mark McDonald has resigned for?

      I once played chap-door-run with some old folks is it worse than that ?

    138. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Went into change-org to make a petition about getting rid of Mundell, only to find I’d started one ages ago but not completed the process.

      Well, that’s it done now…

      I know, I know – some feel these things are futile. I agree, but still, how would you feel if you knew there was a petition going around with x-number of thousand signatures demanding your resignation?

      Even if it has just the slightest effect on some who’ve never really bothered to think about Mundell and his important role in *all* of our lives, that surely justifies the four seconds it takes to complete and forward the thing, eh? Or it could persuade a whistle-blower that enough’s enough…the straw that broke the proverbial!


    139. Alex Clark says:

      You’ve got 3 signatures now Ian LOL

    140. Marga says:

      Fascinating reading, but before continuing, I just ask what some people are already wondering – who’s behind Rajoy?

      Don’t know if anyone in this thread has any clues. Will continue reading with interest.

    141. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Alex Clark –

      Just you wait and see – he’ll be gone by the morning!

    142. Marga says:

      Interestingly, over the last few weeks, Junker, now Tusk and various other EU high officials are being feted and awarded prizes by Spanish universities and other institutions. And that’s only the softeners you are allowed to see.

      What’s happening behind the scenes? Word is that it is Rajoy’s top priority, by fair means or foul, to stop any leaks in the EU posture re. Catalonia. He’s already muzzled the Balkan states, Belgium has had a mouthful, and no doubt the rest are being subject to every kind of pressure and dirty tricks.

    143. Alex Clark says:

      @Liz g

      Parking is free after 18:00 on a Saturday in the council car park next to the train station which is about 100m from Jolly’s.

      You can also park on the streets around the hotel if you can find a space, you will see the car park easily on google maps.

      Hope you make it 🙂

    144. Grouse Beater says:

      Just back from Spain – will report in hours trial of Catalan ‘dissidents’ by remnants of Franco’s ‘People’s Party’ run by Rajoy.

      Intrigued while away to read of Westminster sex sleaze … and then I remembered I penned this many months ago:

    145. Liz g says:

      Alex Clarke @ 9.36
      Thank you Alex..
      I fully intend to…and having been through Dundee many times, I am very much lookin forward to having a reason to stop!
      But like every other City, parking is a Bandit….
      And I am no even including my non existent sense of direction!
      But I will find ye….hopefully before shutting time..LOL…

    146. Molly says:

      Ian Brotherhood

      We pay something like 10m for David Mundells ‘office’ .

      I won’t expect Gordon Brewer to ask but someone should be,if there is no specific Scotland Brexit analysis been done – why has his office as the Sec of State for Scotland not done any?

      This is his responsibility only, as our representative in Westminster, with his access to the cabinet and as his remit .

      Not the S Govts, not Scottish business The Sec of State responsibility.

      Otherwise lets all ask him what is he spending the 10m on?

    147. CameronB Brodie says:

      Re. Constitutional morality.

      Ronald Dworkin’s The Moral Reading of the Constitution: A Critique

      Constitutions are not designed for metaphysical or logical subtleties … for elaborate shades of meaning, or for the exercise of philosophical acuteness or… extraordinary gloss.’ – Justice Story

      Ronald Dworkin, a professor of jurisprudence and the guru of activist deep thinkers, proposes a “moral reading of the Constitution.”2 The “moral reading,”he acknowledges, “seems intellectually and politically discreditable”; “to many lawyers and political scientists,” it “will appear extravagant…[and] even perverse.”4 He admits it is “often dismissed as an ‘extreme’ view …[M]ainstream constitutional theory… wholly rejects that reading,”5 and it is “often explicitly condemned.”6 So it “would… be revolutionary for a judge openly to recognize th[at] moral reading.” These convictions reflect those of the people; as John Hart Ely noted, “[o]ur society does not, rightly does not, accept the notion of a discoverable and objectively valid set of moral principles… that could plausibly serve to overturn the decisions of our elected representatives.”8 “Morals,” as will appear, offer frail footing for displacement of our “government by consent” by government by judiciary. Dworkin unfurls the banner of revolution.

      To import his moral reading “into the heart of constitutional law,” Dworkin instances recognition by the First Amendment of “a moral principle-that it is wrong for government to censor [what an individual says].”9 To rely for a “moral reading” on the proposition that censorship is “wrong,” that is, “morally unjust,”‘” is to engage in circular reasoning. Free speech is a relatively recent phenomenon;” for centuries, “to extirpate erroneous views” was deemed a “high moral obligation.”‘2

      And here’s a couple for the “Semiotic Kid”.

      Basic Tasks of Cultural Semiotics

      ….The semiotic approach to culture competes with the traditional procedures of the humanities, the social sciences, and the normative disciplines (see Posner 1991: 371). It tries to explicate their results insofar as they can be rendered theoretical. Within this framework one can analyze cultural phenomena without relying on problematic concepts such as ‘human soul’, ‘social role’, or ‘norm’, and also without resorting to theoryless listings of incompatible phenomena, as often found in cultural histories (see Reckwitz 2000). Having too often been associated with a particular nation, social class, ethnic group, or animal species (see for example the contrast between “German culture” and “Western civilization”; Elias 1939: I, 2-10), the word “culture” is now becoming a theory-based general concept which no longer obstructs a rational analysis of cultural phenomena in humans, animals, and machines.

      Semiotics, Constructivism and Sedition


      This paper seeks to assess the sedition reforms through the lens of semiotic and constructivist theory. It argues that traditional legal analyses ensure a myopic view of the reforms and occlude their full effect. The analysis proposed acknowledges the text as a communication of wider sociopolitical meanings. To approach the reforms as such allows an appreciation of the subtle messages of Australian identity and government authority being communicated and opens the debate beyond the specialised and exclusive context of the law. It further counters the force of the liberal grand narrative which is deployed to sublimate this incursion into liberal freedoms as a necessary democratic anomaly.

    148. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Molly –

      Aye, it’s a disgrace – any responsible journalistic ‘business’ would be demanding to know why he’s getting extra staff and funding.

      Dunno, maybe I’m just getting old and tired and cynical and unreasonable but I honestly cannot believe that Mundell has lasted in that position as long as he has. Truth is, no-one else wants to do it.

      He’s become an actual caricature of the Useful Idiot Jock, and is using cartoonish persona (as Bojo does) as a form of lifebelt.

    149. Old Pete says:

      Disaster, SNP minister resigns from his post over inappropriate behaviour. The Unionist media will splash the usual bad, bad SNP all over the front pages. Another propaganda gaff by the SNP, by now you would have thought they might have realized they must be whiter than white. Nicola must be fuming.

      Think Fallon might have to resign as an MP and there might be more Tories and Labour MPs still to be uncovered and they too might have to resign, pity McDonald let us all down.

    150. geeo says:

      Fuck off stinky pete, history will show the SNP took swift action, unlike all the unionist parties who have dithered and obfuscated at every turn on this issue.

      You seem desperate for it to be “SNP BAD”.

    151. geeo says:

      For an MP to be FORCED to quit as an MP, they must basically get more than 12 months in Jail time.

      Otherwise they can stay in place untouchable, even if the party boots them out.

    152. Alex Clark says:

      @Old Pete

      Your clutching at straws there mate. Still another 35 Tories to go and who knows yet what Labour are hiding under the bed?

    153. ALANM says:

      Whilst we continue to talk among ourselves, it seems to have escaped the notice of most contributors here that the war against independence has recently been ramped up to a whole new level…

      Celebration of the UK armed forces and illegal wars is compulsory. Poppies are now mandatory. Sky Sports even turned off their microphones at the St. Johnstone v Celtic match today to ensure that the one minute “silence” was observed.

      Nobody in Scotland in a position of power appears to have spoken up in support of our friends in Catalonia. All we get is forced ministerial resignations designed to grab the headlines and deflect our attention from the real issues of the day.

      Last but not least, the EU has been shown up for what it really is – a private members club for big business with no interest in human rights, self-determination or democracy. So why do we still aspire to be members?

    154. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Croompenstein 10.41: great night tonight in Hamilton at the 50th anniversary celebrations. Miners’ Welfare was stowed oot and some great speeches, particularly from Fergus E and the FM. Film clips from a new documentary of the 1967 victory very good and sure to be on BBC very soon.

      Sorry, that was a lame attempt at irony.

      Fashion notes : wore my patent leather shoes…

      Onwards, vile seps.

    155. Alex Clark says:

      Kevin McKenna really is starting to annoy me, like Sillars who he talks of here in glowing terms he is a fair weather friend to the Independence cause.

      “The Scottish Independence Convention must step into the breach and provide the fresh impetus, ideas and leadership that the wider Yes movement desperately craves. It has arrived not a moment too soon. Amongst these people and in this place the ultimate fate of the campaign for Scottish independence will be determined.”

      Total bollocks. He really needs to stop writing so much Jackie Baillie. Hope you are listening Kevin!

    156. Iain mhor says:

      Oh well, a prior post disappeared in the ether (unless it pops up duplicated at some point-apologies)
      Anyway, Where my boring topic is relevant to the OP is contained in the ECHR Article3 (Protocol1)
      “The Right to Free and Fair elections”
      Insomniacs can read it in PDF form here:

      This research briefing re: expat voters, which also references the above ECHR Protocol, appears to swing about from a quoted 5 milion, to 3 and under 2 million.

      The consensus appears to be that only around 23000+ voters exercised their right. That the government was/is attempting to increase that number to 100,000
      Possibly my historical surmise of a significant, large voting bloc swinging UK election results is erroneous. Though that doesn’t preclude an impact of some description.

      The ONS (Office of National Statistics) isn’t much clearer and appears to contradict the government research briefing. Figures are collated at 2011 with a note that they have not changed statistically at 2017?

      Make of it what you will and I’ll stop boring with a dry topic – Unless I connect some relevant dots.

    157. CameronB Brodie says:

      OT. Re. the Union Flag appearing everywhere. Might this have something to do with the aforementioned ‘single UK market’ and a ‘One Nation’ re-branding for post-Brexit global trade?

      National Identity, Popular Culture and Everyday Life

      Recycling Images: The Tourist Industry, Heritage and Film
      in Scotland

      And again, the selling of Scotland abroad tends to rely on stereotyped images such as kilted warriors, Highland scenery and romantic castles, constructing what Rojek calls ‘an enchanted fortress in a disenchanted world’ (1993:181). Womack has commented that ‘all Scots wear tartan, are devoted to bagpipe music, and are moved by the spirit of clanship. . . all these libels live on as items in the Scottish tourist package of the Twentieth century’ (1987: 25). These representations emerged in the eighteenth century and solidified in the nineteenth century, when they became enormously popular. Serving as an ‘other’ realm on the margins of the United Kingdom, a rugged and ‘sublime’ Highland landscape with its wild clansman garbed in tartan and kilt, Scotland was a romantic dream-scape tailored by and for metropolitan desire. These fantasies were served by the productions generated in the era where folklore and traditions were ‘invented’….,{%22name%22:%22XYZ%22},-80,758,null]

      Semiotics of Identity: Politics and Education


      In this text I concentrate on semiotic aspects of the theory of political identity in the work of Ernesto Laclau, and especially on the connection between metaphors, metonymies, catachreses and synecdoches. Those tropes are of ontological status, and therefore they are of key importance in understanding the discursive “production” of identity in political and educational practices. I use the conceptions of both Laclau and Eco to elucidate the operation of this structure, and illustrate it with an example of the emergence of the “Solidarno??” movement in Poland, expanding its analysis provided by Laclau. I focus on the moment when one of particular demands assumes the representation of totality, which, in Laclau, is left to “circumstantial” determination.

      This moment inspires several questions and needs to be given special attention if Laclau’s theory is to be used in theory of education. It is so because theory of education cannot remain on the level of the ontological (which is the core of Laclau’s achievement), but has to theorize “non-ontological” dimensions as well, that is the ontic (i.e. “content” of education), the deontic (duty, obligation, and the normative in general), as well as what I call the deontological—the very relation between “what there is” and “what there is not” (including that which should be) as the locus of education.

      The Nation Brand Regime: Nation Branding and the Semiotic Regimentation of Public Communication in Contemporary Macedonia


      This article analyzes the forms of metasemiotic regimentation that are inherent to any nation-branding project and examines their implications for the organization of publics and governance. Focusing on a state-sponsored nation-branding project undertaken in the Republic of Macedonia, the article argues that nation-branding strategies are best understood as interventions within and across public spheres. As illustrated in the article, the nation-branding project that developed around Skopje 2014—a spectacular urban renovation plan that transformed Macedonia’s capital—included both a public relations effort that targeted several external publics and also a campaign to shape how Macedonia was represented internal to the Macedonian public sphere.

      This inward-facing aspect of nation branding in Macedonia manifested through metapragmatic discourses that ascribed meaning to public speech and conduct based on their imagined impact on the nation-branding project. In analyzing how government-produced media sought to interpellate Macedonians as responsible for “living the brand,” the article interrogates how logics of nation branding can organize new demands on how and to whom one performs national identity and argues that such coordinated efforts to regulate public communication constitute a wider program of economic and social governance that can be glossed as a “nation brand regime.”

    158. Meg merrilees says:

      Catching up with Liz Castro’s twitter feed:

      44,000 march in Basque country in support of Catalonia today.
      Junqueras statement from prison:
      ‘If the price of freedom is prison, we will never give up on freedom.

      Manon Masse has requested Ottawa give Puigdemont political asylum.
      Catalan’s largest teachers union to join the general strike next week, Nov 8th.
      Spanish court has indicted 8 teachers for’ hate crime’ for discussing the Catalan Referendum in class.

      10 BLACK HOLES in the Spanish Prosecutor’s case:

      1. Acceleration and change in judicial calendar. Denial of right to a defense, violation of fundamental rights.
      2. Judicial action against politicians in electoral periods.
      3. Court judging without jurisdiction, according to the Supreme Court.
      4. Supreme Court doesn’t have jurisdiction over Catalan Parliament Board members.
      5. The prosecutor has built a partisan criminal complaint
      6. Prosecutor does not defend rights of accused, which he is required to do by law.
      7. Basic process rights are not being respected.
      8. Puigdemont has been denied the right to defend himself.
      9. Judge decreed prison time without evaluating how ‘rooted’ the defendants are.
      10. Violating the privacy of communications

      She then attaches a link to a really important Spanish article that she recommends reading through google translate.

      Can someone archive the article please and possibly even archive it after Google translate ?has worked it’s magic.

    159. Iain mhor says:

      ECHR Article 3 Protocol 1 is well worth a cursory read.
      You’ll be old and grey by the time you finish it all though.
      Suffice to say, Spain, by calling December elections is probably trying to avoid being hauled in front of the ECHR. But frankly, there appears to be no avoiding a legitimate hearing of the case if one is brought by Catalunya. Even ( and probably more relevantly) by the individuals most affected.
      National legislation doesn’t preclude a breach of the Protocol.
      My interpretation anyway.
      Now I’m going to slam my brain with more alcohol, because following up on the example caselaws has burned my eyeballs out.

    160. William Wallace says:

      @ Meg

      “Spanish court has indicted 8 teachers for’ hate crime’ for discussing the Catalan Referendum in class.”

      Jeez!! that is really disturbing.

      Spain becoming the new Turkey ffs.

    161. schrodingers cat says:

      if the SIC has the blessing of nicola and alex………. i for one will not critisise

    162. Wull says:

      With apologies … a bit of doggerel (there’s even a ‘dog’ in it), or a kind of a song. Based on the excellent cartoon.

      I think most folk will know the tune (however, you may have to stretch it a bit, sometimes … ).

      The first line is also the title … Here it is:

      Fluff the Magic Dragon
      Lived in Dumfries …
      But then he went … to Parliament
      And they put him on a leash.

      A once-proud Scottish Dragon –
      What happened to his fire?
      They tamed and maimed and … claimed him there
      And covered him in mire.

      “Every PM needs one” –
      So said Mrs T.
      What did she mean? … Her “Whitelaw dream” –
      “A Willie, just for Me!”

      And Tessa May remembered
      This Thatcher Doctrine fine
      Got out her fetters … to do better:
      ‘The Dragon, he’ll be Mine!’

      Come here, my boy, she told him
      And come at once he did:
      He wasn’t coy to be her toy
      As if … he came out her rib!

      She dressed him as a fireman
      In bright red hat and boots:
      ‘You’re now my pet, you bearded wet!
      So please put Scotland ‘oot’!

      Fluff was all compliant
      Pleased to be her dog!
      No more was he a Dragon … Just a bag-man!
      Mayflower was his god.

      She chained him up
      And held him … to do her every bidding:
      “With all my ire … pour out your fire
      On rebellious Scots: … Get rid of ’em!”

      Her doctrine he promoted:
      “The Union means One Thing:
      Scots’re English! … Scot-land, extinguished,
      Since Seventeen O Seven!”

      And so, to prove his mettle
      His nozzle he displayed:
      In both hands took it … and bazooked it:
      May’s doctrine … sprayed and sprayed:

      “Four nations … all in Union:
      Only one did make it:
      England’s the whole UK .. for May!
      Scotland? … Incorporated!”

      So Fluff, the tragic bag-man,
      Undid himself with lies:
      The more he sprayed … the more Scots said:
      “We must get out of this!”

      And come, the referendum
      That’s just what they will do:
      Former ‘No’ folk change their vote:
      And Fluff will have helped them to …

      Scotland, independent …
      Fluff’s Day is done:
      Mrs May will put him away,
      Back-firers are no fun …

      There’s no more bags to carry:
      That was the end of Fluff:
      Left to rot, complete forgot,
      In the cupboard … where he’s stuffed.

      So spare a thought for Fluff, then:
      And don’t be unforgiving …
      When Scotland’s free, just let him be –
      And remember, life’s for living!

      We don’t mean harm to him, then,
      Or to anyone:
      The name of the nation … will be … RECONCILIATION …
      When Scotland’s Freedom’s Won!

    163. William Wallace says:

      @ Wull

      Class 😉

    164. Wull says:

      Small correction to my previous post: the title is ‘Fluff, The Tragic Bag-man’, not Fluff the Magic Dragon …

      Not that it matters …

    165. Wull says:

      Many thanks William Wallace.

      Must get some sleep now …

    166. William Wallace says:

      @ Wull

      Should post it in aff – topic. There have been some really good poetic contributions in there of late. DMH’s last one was a cracker.

      Me, ehm up fir a wee bit langer haein a wee perty in meh bedroom tae mehsel 😉 Good Night!!

    167. t42 says:

      Be careful if you buy lettuce and tomatoes from lidl; noticed most of them are from spain. Always check the label to avoid supporting the spanish fascist regime.

    168. daodao says:

      And the next step?

      Rajoy has the law (and the EU) on his side.

      Carles Puigdemont should remember the fate in 1940 of Lluís Companys, one of his predecessors as President of the Generalitat de Catalunya. He won’t be safe from extradition in Belgium.

    169. Nana says:

      In “or about” 25 April 2016, a member of Donald Trump’s campaign team emailed his line manager with good news

      Saudi Arabia is a British creation

      Evidence seen by Byline confirms Professor Joseph Mifsud attended a meeting with Boris Johnson two weeks ago

    170. Breeks says:

      I think Europe is hamstrung on a definition.

      Put to one side the tremendous stoicism of the Catalans in the face of the Guardia Civil, and imagine their actions were not peaceful and democratic, but hostile, subversive, and tending towards violence. I know they weren’t, but for arguments sake, suppose they had been. In those circumstances, nobody would be condemning Spain for suppressing an attempted coup, indeed they might even be commended for doing so without loss of life. The Spanish would only be defending their Nation from insurrection.

      It seems to me, the important distinction between peaceful democracy and an aggressive attempted coup is being completely lost on the Spanish, EU, and wider international community; none of whom are recognising the peaceful democracy of the Catalans, but all are choosing to recognise Catalonia’s referendum as an illegal insurrection that Spain has quashed.

      It poses a profound question or two – whether peaceful democracy can still represent an act of insurrection of the State, and if the State chooses to see insurrection or faulty democracy, what extent it can legitimately go to to protect itself from “democratic insurgency”.

      If you think about it, if every rebellion or insurrection required nothing but a notional majority to declare itself legitimate, then how does any nation on the planet resist or control its own disintegration? How do you begin to govern such instability?

      We are all assuming that just because something is peaceful and democratic, it has guaranteed legitimacy. I fear the reaction of the International Community is telling us that it doesn’t. Nobody disputes a Legitimate Nation’s right to defend itself of illicit insurrection, but what constitutes illicit insurrection doesn’t need to be hand grenades in a TV studio, from Spain’s example, it seems a disputed legality will suffice.

      I support the Catalans, but I also think the Catalans have made a great error of judgement. The moment Spain declared their referendum unconstitutional and illegal, proceeding with the referendum empowered Spain to react to it as an attempted insurrection. That is precisely what they have done.

      So, how does Spain square away the democratic freedom of self determination? That’s an awkward one, but with hindsight, I wonder whether the Catalan’s might have been wiser to liaise with the Basques, Galicians, and lobby for some kind of federalism or amendments to the Spanish Constitution. Catalonia has gone it alone, when perhaps there was another way with even greater democracy. I don’t know.

      I know this all sounds very bleak from a Catalonian perspective, but as many others have pointed out, all manner of revolutions, emancipations and national secession have typically gone through stages of illegality, imprisonment, and frequently ultimate sacrifice before a new nation state has emerged. Catalonia is faced with a very challenging path which will test its resolve of its people to breaking point, but for Catalonia, perhaps this is the only path they ever had. If it was easy, before long everybody would want their own country….

    171. Bill McLean says:

      O/T – not much of a football follower these day, but when I was, The Pars were my team – just in case anyone takes what comes next the wrong way. Our lords and masters on BBC Radio 5 and BBC TV are busily trying to diminish Celtic’s new record. Paul Dickov ( remember him – Man City I believe) put them in their place on Radio 5 when he described the interviewers comment about Celtic’s rercord as “a cheap shot”. Poor wee Scotland – not only are we poor, thick and wee – we can never be allowed to achieve anything. When England’s under 17 team won the world cup they were orgasmic. I’m really really sick of this shit.

    172. louis.b.argyll says:

      Nana, thanks for the links..

      Saudi Arabia is a British creation.

      And Britain is an English creation.

    173. John H. says:

      Bill McLean says:

      Feeling as you do Bill, and I agree with you, you had better avoid Strictly Come Dancing. One English beauty after another takes to the floor…then Susan Calman.

    174. louis.b.argyll says:

      ‘..Imagine hundreds and hundreds of bombs falling on fact they did..’
      Ben Netanyahu.

      Just now, on BBC, answering Marr on Israel’s well documented historical breaches of international treaties.

      Fear, hatred, fascism, fear, hatred.repeat.

    175. Famous15 says:

      O/T Sixty years ago at a teenage party I said to a girl I wanted to date “If I
      told you that you had a beautiful body would you hold it against me ? “ She said “ You are awful but I like you.”

      I unreservedly apologise to my wife for my attempt at humour and wishing to be friendly in a very inappropriate manner and regret that I will never offer to be a minister in the Scottish Government.

    176. louis.b.argyll says:

      Only when Israeli settlers outnumber Palestinians within the occupied ‘territories’, will Israel allow Palestine to exist.

      The settlements are a criminal act, and have been denounced by the international community.

    177. Robert Peffers says:

      @William Wallace says: 5 November, 2017 at 1:51 am:

      “Spain becoming the new Turkey ffs.”

      Spain is not becoming the new Turkey, William.

      I posted already the details of why Spain went to the bother of making itself a Constitutional Monarchy. Franco died but those who had supported and retained his dictatorship were still alive and very much still kicking.

      Spain, as a country, is composed of 17 autonomous regions and after Franco’s death they were very much fragmented and fascism simmered away and not really below the surface. The Spanish government took every possible option to make the people of Spain feel they were NOT autonomous regions but one big happy family of a nation.

      Here is a cut & paste from this Wiki article:-

      The Spanish transition to democracy (Spanish: Transición española a la democracia), or simply the Transition (Spanish: La Transición) was the restoration of democracy in Spain after the death of Francisco Franco in 1975. The transition began shortly after Franco’s death on 20 November 1975, while its completion has been variously said to be marked by the Spanish Constitution of 1978, the failure of an attempted coup on 23 February 1981, or the electoral victory of the Spanish Socialist Workers’ Party (PSOE) on 28 October 1982. Though faced with political and economic crises at the time, the transition to democracy was one of the factors that allowed Spain to join the European Economic Community and NATO

      (The bolding in that quote is mine.)

      This, “La Transición”, included the partial restoration of the monarchy, (but as a new Constitutional Monarchy), and the creation of a new Spanish Constitution that included the clauses that the Spanish Government today is using to, (quite frankly), to suppress democracy and make the Catalonian leaders actually Political Prisoners. However fascism has simmered away in Spain and seems now to be again above the surface.

      The several independence movements in different autonomous regions is conclusive proof that, “La Transición”, is far from having been successful in making all of the 17 Autonomous Regions of Spain feel that Spain is, “A United Kingdom of Greater Spain.”

      Like, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland”, that Spain attempted to model itself upon, the concept of Monarchy, (even if it is a only a Constitutional Monarchy), sits ill with true democracy because all monarchy is an elitist set-up and begets an undemocratic class system or, “Them & Us”.

      The specific clause in the Spanish Constitution being used by the fascist Spanish Government to indict the Catalonian leaders was ironically included in the new Spanish Constitution in an effort to prevent the re-rise of fascism.

      Like the UK government the Spanish Government has only partially succeeded in suppressing the true situation by government propaganda and independence movements can only be kept down by ever increasing more severe government actions. Eventually they overstep the tolerance line of the real democratic states and international treaties.

      The UN has already spoken out and if the EU and Council of Europe fail to do so they will weaken, or even lose, their status as international bodies.

      I believe that, what with BRUKExit and the Catalan situations, the EU and Council of Europe are now walking a very insecure tight-rope at this moment in history and there is no safety net.

    178. heedtracker says:

      Great links Nana!

      Got a spare hour? Moral Maze on Catalonia, from the beeb gimps, I know right, morality, like that crew even know the meaning:D

      Pretty obvs debate but Micheal Portillo’s once classic tory twit, especially at the end. This tory twit says Catalonia can only have a legal ref, if they change Spain’s constitution and the Catalans only show they really really want independence, for years to come. How many, maybe once in a generation of showing, they really really want it.

      “A key moral question centres on what is meant by the “will of the people”. In the case of Catalonia, should we base our moral judgements on the 90% who voted for independence in the illegal referendum (which only had a 43% turnout) or on the majority of Catalans who, for whatever reason, didn’t vote? Does a democratically-mandated central government have a moral duty to uphold the rule of law for the sake of unity, or can self-determination trump the duty of loyalty to the nation? What are the moral boundaries of self-determination? When, if ever, is a unilateral declaration of independence morally justified?”

      goes easy on the beeb liggers though, way too easy.

    179. @Bill McLean

      You mention Paul Dickov,

      he scored for Scotland when they got to the final of the under 16/17 World Cup final at Hampden 1989,

      2.0 up at half time but lost on penalties to Saudi Arabia,

      I was at sun drenched(Tuesday I think) Tynie for the semi against Portugal`s golden generation Figo,Costa, 29,000 jambo`s with 5,000 locked out.

    180. Proud Cybernat says:

      “When England’s under 17 team won the world cup they were orgasmic.”

      I can understand though why the English media were so “orgasmic” with their U-17s winning the World Cup–now they have a world cup football win that they can watch in colour.

    181. heedtracker says:

      Probably one of Scotland’s greatest rogues, lies again, on his beeb gimp network, of liars.

      Crash Gordo could have easily tuned in to the BBC r4 Today show, almost every morning for months, in the run up to Crash and Bomber Blair’s Iraq war and listened to UN weapons inspector tell John Humphries, on the phone, we can’t find any WMD’s in Iraq, we’re looking everywhere but there are none.

      Aint no war criminals like the British ones. But Crash did save this precious precious union, for that our imperial masters will be forever grateful.

    182. heedtracker says:

      As Orange Hitler goes on his hols, his failing New York Times says,

      “Confused and divided, Britain no longer has an agreed-upon national narrative, said Charles Grant, director of the Center for European Reform. “In the 2012 Olympics we had one,” he said. “Global Britain, open Britain, generous Britain.” But now there is a competition between that narrative and the nativist one.”

      They could have at least mentioned the S____d region of teamGB.

    183. heedtracker says:

      EU kept well out of Scots indy ref1 but even so, Scots MP’s made an impression, on some in the EU at least.

      Guy Verhofstadt
      1 hr ·
      Over the last 60 years, Europe has achieved so much: European countries managed to overcome their divisions and worked together to improve our common future. But there’s still so much to do, so much to achieve! This deep conviction leads my pro-European action, and I’m glad that Radicali, whose I addressed last week and sent me this great video, is part of the #EUFightBack too! Share & spread the #IamEuropean message.”

      Who’s at the start? The Scots. Like Guy says, ssssssshare & spread:D

    184. TheWasp says:

      Scott Finlayson @ 10.33

      The under 17 Saudi team were staying in the Stirling area during the world cup, and it is common knowledge in the area that they were all over age. They were hitting the nightspots (I know) of central Scotland flashing passports and ID showing they were mostly in their twenties. If I remember correctly the whole team in the final were bearded as well.

    185. Ken500 says:

      Millions/billions were against the Iraq war. It was obvious what would happen. Everyone knew the banks were lending to much to people who could no pay it back. Inflated collateral. Except the Chancellor? Funding the Illegal war. Breaking International Law. Causing poverty and killing and maiming millions of people. Even after the illegal invasion of Iraq. The warmongers continued to arm criminals. Selling arms to absolute despot monarchies. No Civil or human rights for the people. Causing the worst migration crisis in Europe since the 11WW. Appalling disgrace.

      Fallon selling arms to absolute despot monarchies. To kill and maim innocent people. The Balfour agreement 1917, between Balfour and Lord Rothschild. Destroying the world economy.

      The Westminster perverts and ignorant incompetents. Now Brexit. Once again trying to destroy the world economy. So they and their cronies can tax evade and embezzle public money. On groteque non mandated projects of no value. Starving vulnerable people. While cutting essential services which everyone wants, needs and uses.

      For how much longer can this farce go on. The Tory- unionists are a disgrace.

    186. Wullie B says:

      Hearing from a Catalan journalist that the Belgians have issued an arrest warrant for the Catalan president, hoping this is wrong but with Belgium a memberstate of EU I have my doubts. My position over EU is faltering fast although I would still support an ERA at the moment

    187. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      All the talk about the 43% turnout in the Catalan referendum should be judged against the mid forties turnout in US presidential elections. Those who don’t vote (for whatever reason) have no relevance to the result.

    188. Jack Murphy says:

      Off Topic. An inspiring funny Alan Bissett in the Usher Hall yesterday at the Scottish Independence Convention.

      Well worth a wee look. 🙂
      Independence Livestream:
      From 3:35:00 to 3:50:00

    189. HandandShrimp says:

      I recall vividly the German foreign minister telling Rumsfeld he had not made a convincing case for war. Others could see it but not Blair or Brown.

      On the plus side I suppose it is an acknowledgement that the war was ill advised, badly prosecuted and appallingly mismanaged afterwards.

    190. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      I wonder if there are some interesting tales about Gordon Brown when he worked as a journalist at STV

    191. heedtracker says:

      Toryboy Horatio Nelson says read this

      Fraser Nelson?Verified account @FraserNelson 24h24 hours ago

      Scotland used to have the best schools system in the world – then devolution happened. Madeleine Kearns:

      Tory twit propaganda trick no.1004

      “. A once enthusiastic primary teacher who said to me, ‘I’d rather do anything — anything — than go back.’ At the last count, there were almost 700 vacant teaching posts in Scotland. That’s around 21,000 pupils who are missing teachers.”

      There’s around 50,000 Scottish teachers, in Scotland today, with 700 vacancies.

      Does it matter that toryboy twits like Horatio Nelson here, have a regular permanent vote tory talking head slot, on the BBC gimp network?

    192. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      There is and always has been vacancies in schools.It happens for instance every year when some retire and some time is taken to recruit replacements.

      There is however disquiet a the levels of over regulation that is now making teaching more difficult but no more productive. Even when I was doing supply teaching a few years ago The C of E was creating huge distaste in the profession and this has not gone away

    193. heedtracker says:

      Others could see it but not Blair or Brown.

      Westminster voted for Iraq war. Labour voted for Iraq war. This is what we have to contend with, fake lefty, phoney Internationale charlatans, war mongers with the blood of hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of civilians on their hands, and only one real mission now, keep Scotland down. Let’s hope these awful w_nkers never get near any Holyrood office again.

      “The list of UK MPs who voted for the Iraq War refers to Members of Parliament in the United Kingdom House of Commons who voted in favour of Tony Blair’s New Labour regime motion for participating in the Iraq War. The vote took place on the 18 March 2003 and it couched its position as authorising “all means necessary for disarming Saddam Hussein.” Across all members, it passed by a majority of 263, with 421 in favour and 263 against. All Liberal Democrats voted against the war; 244 Labour Party members voted in favour (and tabled the motion), as did 139 Conservative Party members.”

    194. HandandShrimp says:

      Mark MacDonald didn’t stay too story for long. Damien Green fighting off porn allegations and Monica being sexually assaulted have unsurprisingly taken top billing.

      The number of Labour incidents is surprising. Money used to be Labour’s Bette Noir…sex was the Tory/Liberal peccadillo. We live in strange times.

    195. harry mcaye says:

      Scot Finlayson – I think you mean 29,000 Scotland supporters. I was there too and I’m certainly not a jambo.

      I was at the final too when we lost to the Saudis under 35 side!

    196. Ken500 says:

      Tories cut education funding £6Billion a year. Cut NHS funding £4Billion a year. Cut welfare funding £3Billion a year. Total £13Billion. Cut essential services. Starving vulnerable people. Caused the worst migration crisis since 11WW.

      They are spending £30Billion++ a year on Hinkley Point, HS2, Trident and Heathrow. All a total waste of money. With more credible, cheaper safer alternatives.

      Illegal wars, tax evasion and financial fraud. HMRC not fit for purpose. Westminster cess pit. Westminster unionist and their cronies embezzlement of public and tax evasion, Brexit chaos.

      Trade union leaders financed the illegal wars. The red flag dripping with blood.

    197. Andy-B says:

      The mentality of Rangers fooball fans (no all though) is for the lack of a better word, astonishing.

      They cheered and laughed as security staff dragged a Thistle fan holding a Saltire out of Ibrox yesterday.

      The comments section is surreal to say the least.

    198. geeo says:

      Wonder if Monica Lennon will address the issue of online labour trolls, who she, as labour in Scotland’s online activity co-ordinator, seemingly allows vile characters like Del Rashid and Nancy MacIntosh to spew their vicious bile against all and sundry on labour party pages online ?

      When quizzed about her being photographed with Del Rashid holding “Team Monica” placards during her 2016 Holyrood campaign, and told exactly who (or rather what, Del Rashid was) Monica Lennon’s reaction was to instantly ban me from her facebook pages and suddenly i was subjected to vile abuse from several labour trolls, including those mentioned earlier.

      These trolls STILL are given free reign to spew their bile on labour pages today.

      If Lennon has suffered abuse, then i totally condemn it, but i do so with limited sympathy, when she allows vile abusers to patronise her social media pages.

    199. gus1940 says:


      Last night I spent a considerable time watching CNN after the story of the rocket attack on Riyadh broke.

      Assorted commentators gave their twopence worth while accepting the Saudi statement that their missile defence system, presumably Patriot, had downed the missile.

      Meanwhile in the background a loop apparently covering the attack was shown repeatedly.

      I was puzzled and still am by the contents of said loop and its possible relevance to the statement that the missile was shot down.

      What we were shown was the launch of several Patriots heading diagonally towards the camera and over the cameraman’s right shoulder. This was followed by a series of large explosions in the area from which the Patriots were launched (apparently the airport). The commentator said that this was the ‘descent of the wreckage of the incoming missile which had allegedly been shot down.

      In the light of the visible evidence am I alone in being puzzled by the story we are being told – extremely destructive wreckage apparently.

      This reminds me of events on the night of 9/11 which I recall clearly and which have never been explained.

      I don’t think my memory is failing me but on that evening we were shown live pictures of a bombing attack on Kabul Airport.

      Nobody even attempted at the time to speculate who was responsible and it is as if it never happened as it has never been mentioned since that night.

      Can anybody else remember said Kabul bombing ayttack?

    200. geeo says:

      Monica Lennon’s story opens a large can of worms, which goes beyond her assault.

      She says “several” labour members, including politicians, watched the assault and one even remarked that ‘she shouldn’t have got him excited’

      Those people also need investigated as a matter of urgency.

      There is another aspect to all these allegations.

      The media are in a frenzy over these scandals, and frankly, if the allegations are true, fair play to them for exposing people across the political spectrum rather than play games with it.

      However, is it just me that feels a wee bit of disquiet over the fact that this scandal is getting the full press expose and attention, yet the much more insidious child abuse sex scandal at WM was rather less enthusiastically pursued by the same media ?

      That leads me to believe there is an ulterior motive here by the media.

      No doubt, all shall be revealed soon enough.

    201. Ken500 says:

      Unionist councils cut allocated education/schools funding. Use the statute limitation of 30 pupils per class size. To break the Law and keep class sizes too high and cut additional needs funding. Cut allocated education/essential services funding to misuse on non mandated grotesque projects of no value. No one wants. Misusing public money. John Swinney should cut statue of limitation which is used as the norm by unionists councils to illegally cut allocated education funding. It is established to actually aid misorganisation by Councils who do not meet statutory requirements. Ie building houses without primary provision. Keeping provision of rural schools etc.

      It is reported that education unions prevent candidates with Maths/science degrees from being accepted for teacher training with o’level English. Despite having good degrees and excellent business/career experience. Surely a compromise could be reached. There would be no shortage of teachers. Excellent candidates. Either English course included in training or external commitment to further study. Literature, Often it does not fit into the school curriculum.

      Scotland by any standards still has one of the best education system in the world. Lifelong learning. 55% of the population is educated to degree standards. 30% from school. 25% mature students. (often not included in statistics) university, college and apprenticeships. Support for additional needs people, especially at higher level. More support at College and Uni than schools, because unionists councils cut provision and education alllocation.

      PISA tests are nonsense . Based on a structure of elitism and abuse. Child abuse. Studying from 8am till 12pm at night 6 days a week. Pupils committing suicide. Undue pressure which do not increase standards or cohesion. Just increase misery. Based on miscalculated statistics of a higher drop out rate at 15 years. 1/3 of the population out of education in South Korea.

      Scotland has more provision of accessible University, College (apprenticeship) pro rata than anywhere in the world.

      Most teachers enjoy their jobs and are excellent. A few possibly in the wrong vocation. Less bureaucracy introduced by Westminster (Blair) to achieve lists and standards. Impossible allocation.

      If allocated education money is cut by Councils using manipulated inadequate provision as the norm. Higher class sizes and no additional needs funding. Not giving adequate support. More has to be spent on NHS, mental health, police, fire, social services, drink/drug total abstinence proper counselling, prisons. All because education was illegally inadequate funding and allocated funding cut by Councils. To be spent on non mandated groteque projects of no value. No one wants.

    202. Robert Peffers says:

      Just nearly choked to death by reading one of Nana’s links while eating a digestive biscuit and reading Wings:-

      <i."No One Knows What Britain Is Anymore."

      It is an article from the New York Times.

      I’ve not read so much utter claptrap and uneducated, ignorance in my life and such hilarious fictitious nonsense since reading, ““Alice through the Looking Glass”, by Lewis Carrol.

      Incidentally you can read that book on-line free here:-

      The author of this article himself hasn’t a single clue of what, “Britain”, actually is and not only confuses Britain with the United Kingdom but he thinks it is everyone else that hasn’t a clue and not himself.

      The very first paragraph exposes this numptie’s crass uneducated drivel – “Many Britons see their country as a brave galleon, banners waving, cannons firing, trumpets blaring. That is how the country’s voluble foreign secretary, Boris Johnson, likes to describe it.”

      The idiot doesn’t know that Britain, (a.k.a. the British Isles), contains not only the island of, “Great Britain”, that is comprised of only three of the four countries of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland. The other United Kingdom country being actually one part of the politically partitioned country of Ireland.

      Which, of course, leaves the other part of the country of Ireland, “The Republic of Ireland”, as an independently governed state but still part of the British Isles.

      None of which addresses the three, non-United Kingdom, Crown Protectorates of The Bailiwick of Jersey, The Bailiwick of Guernsey and The Isle of Man.

      This idiot, masquerading as a journalist, could not even understand that the term, “The United Kingdom”, describes, would you believe it, not a country but A KINGDOM? And a bipartite one at that, as only the equally sovereign Kingdoms of Scotland, (the then senior independent kingdom), and the Kingdom of England, are signatories on the Treaty of Union 1707.

      In 1707 both all Ireland and Wales were integral parts of the Kingdom of England and thus, as dominions of the Kingdom of England, had no need to be signatory to the Treaty Of Union.

      While Jersey, Guernsey and Man are protectorates of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, not of the Westminster Parliament, and thus part of her personal kingdom, as are such as Canada, Australia and New Zealand they most certainly are NOT part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and are thus independent of Westminster.

      The ignorance of such, (Cough!), Journalists is breath-taking and he is far from being alone. How often do we hear such as Theresa May claim she is Prime Minister of Britain? How often do Westminster Ministers and MPs talk of the British Armed forces? Is it any wonder that certain parts of, (those not already independent),BRITAIN seek independence?

    203. Breeks says:

      I would be interested to know what attitudes towards Catalonia are in the EU hinterland. Does the EU have the backing of its people, or has it gone out on a limb for Spain?

      I would hazard a guess there will be very similar human concern about police excesses and brutality, but at the same time resignation about it being a Constitutional matter for the Spanish and Catalans to resolve themselves.

      I don’t sense the EU feels threatened by damage to its reputation from its adopted position on Catalonia.

      It seems the most natural thing in the world for us Scots to identify with the Catalans. I’m not the slightest bit reticent in backing Catalonia, but I confess, it’s depressing how many of us are so quick to find fault in the EU.

      Strikes me, the sooner the Catalans understand why the EU is keeping them at arms length, the sooner they can alter tack and work towards a convergence of ideas.

      All I see is unhelpful criticism of the EU for not respecting the Catalonian democracy, but precious little enlightening analysis of why the EU is not respecting Catalonian democracy. – How very British of us…

      And sure enough, there is the Scottish dimension too. I believe we should be paying forensic attention to each and every pitfall the Catalonians discover, because I firmly believe our Scottish faith in democracy might prove itself as fatally aspirational as the Catanan’s, but equally fragile when it collides with an internationally recognised sovereignty.

      I very much hope that the eyes and ears of the SNP are studying the events in Catalonia under a high powered microscope and forming fresh perspectives on the vital necessity of Scottish sovereignty securing some substantial degree of international recognition long before Brexit or ScotRef are upon us.

    204. William Wallace says:

      @ Robert P 9:56

      “Spain becoming the new Turkey ffs.”

      Spain is not becoming the new Turkey, William.

      I did not mean it literally. Was intended in a bit more of a tongue in cheek way. Thank you for your informative post in response though.

    205. Ken500 says:

      Thatcher on being informed by police of child abuse by Tory politicians. ‘Boys will be boys’. Currie supported that. Westminster politicians kept it quiet. Even threatened the Police who wanted to take action. Police, Press threatened with prison under ‘D’ notices. Criminal activity kept suppressed under the Official Secrets Act. Until people concerned as criminals were dead. Including Thatcher’s criminal, illegal behaviour. Iraqi war hidden for 100 years. Dunblane etc. To hid Westminster politicians criminal activities. Most of Westminster unionist politicians should be put in jail. For starving and killing millions of vulnerable people and destroying the world economy. So they can illegally embezzle public money and tax evade. Brexit a total catastrophe.

    206. Robert Peffers says:

      @HandandShrimp says: 5 November, 2017 at 11:24 am:

      “I recall vividly the German foreign minister telling Rumsfeld he had not made a convincing case for war. Others could see it but not Blair or Brown. “

      I recall, even more vividly, on the Scottish, English and UK political Newsnet newsgroups, (which were then the open online forums for public debate), where I commented as Auld Bob, not only personally arguing that the United Kingdom Government and in particular Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, knew full well they were liars.

      I gave links to the UN investigators evidence but also links to air reconnaissance photos that showed the USA/UK claimed mobile chemical warfare units were in fact old rusted and abandoned armoured tanks and vehicles the USA had provided to Sadam Hossain when the USA were his allies. The landscapes behind the two lots of claimed photos were identical and obviously the same vehicles.

      The ones the USA/UK published were longer shots and the ones we showed were closer in and showed the vehicles as just scrap, out of date, rusted conventional armoured vehicles.

      It was fairly common knowledge that the USA, Blair and Brown were well aware they were telling porkies.

    207. Chick McGregor says:

      These people are mentally ill. They are ultra narcissists addicted to power and adulation.

      Their excuse for lying is that “the people cannot handle the truth.”

      ‘The truth’ of course, being whatever fantasy their febrile imagination has managed to conjure up.

      And, of course, that ‘truth’ is often backed up by a belief that they have a direct line to it because they are obviously the chosen instruments of some supreme supernatural being.

      As many of us have pointed out over the years one of the biggest problems which besets democracy is how to prevent these nut jobs getting into positions of power when they are drawn to it like malevolent moths to a flame.

    208. meg merrilees says:

      Dave McEwan Hill and others..

      If you don’t vote you don’t vote. No If’s or buy’s.

      If you’e agin something you vote against it. If pro then you vote for.
      If you don’t vote then you are disenfranchised and have no right to any say in the outcome.

      This is what happens in WM Parliament and has indeed happened in the past two weeks. The government has been defeated because the Tories abstained.
      This was not registered as an abstention but as a defeat for the government –
      recorded in Hansard as Ayes – 240 : No’s – 0.

      Tories were up in arms and very annoyed but the speaker was at pains to explain to them that they had been defeated because the Ayes had the majority.

      It should be the same in Catalonia, unless there is a prerequisite % i.e. 60% of the
      Electorate before YES can win. There was no precondition.

      In my eyes, pro-indy clearly won.

    209. schrodingers cat says:

      the SIC rally yesterday looked interesting,
      i’ve seen a few disparaging remarks about lefties etc on twitter but all in all it seems to have had a positive review. Alex salmond seems keen on this group and elaine c smith is a competent campaign organiser.

      what does wos think?

    210. schrodingers cat says:

      times saying that theresa has agreed the 60bn ask 4 by eu to kick start negs,

      still to be confirmed.

    211. Cactus says:

      You called it well Mr Chris…

      What flames of fire will ‘Picador Rajoy’ use against the innocent People of Catalonia next, both yes AND no voters, following the crazyness of the unexpected.. that’s you.

      1) The Constitution
      2) Police Brutality
      3) Direct Rule
      4) Imprison Ministers

      Ahoy.. yer out of pumps are oot a pish Rahoy.

      Yer pumps are empty bitch.

      Je Suis Catalonia.

      Anybuddy else feelin’ OUTRAGED at our now ’tish-now?’

      Scotland calling out to ye…

      We’re awe the same.

      Caledonia X.
      Catalonia X.

    212. Cactus says:

      You called it well Mr Chris…

      What flames of fire will ‘Picador Rajoy’ use against the innocent People of Catalonia next, both yes AND no voters, following the crazyness of the unexpected.. that’s you.

      1) The Constitution
      2) Police Brutality
      3) Direct Rule
      4) Imprison Ministers

      Ahoy.. yer out of pumps are oot a pish Rahoy.

      Yer pumps are empty bitch.

      Je Suis Catalonia.

      Anybuddy else feelin’ OUTRAGED at our now ’tish-now?’

      Scotland calling out to ye…

      We’re awe the same.

      Caledonia X.
      Catalonia X.

    213. Cactus says:

      Ah mean, ahoy! Look at the state of Rajoy…

      He is this 21st century’s #1arseholenow.

      Mr Puigdemont is for humanity.

      Of and for.

      A bit like.


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