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Down memory lane

Posted on November 24, 2015 by

Ah, the good old days.

memories

Obviously, actually including the exact phrases “within 45 minutes” and “weapons of mass destruction” might have been a little bit too near the knuckle, but the message comes across just the same: “Here we go again.”

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    347 to “Down memory lane”

    1. Lollysmum says:

      More dodgy info to stoke up the fear quotient

      Bliar Mk 2 courtesy of Cameron
      Dodgy dossier next? I’m sure DR will assist with that 🙁

    2. You are probably correct Stu, but the way things are going now in the Middle East, with the shooting down of the Russian jet by Turkey, it could easily be any excuse now.

    3. jimnarlene says:

      Aye, here we go again, making the world a shittier place. Still the arms trade will make a load of cash, people will be kept in fear thus controlled, the Middle East will be left shattered and angry at the west.

    4. Macart says:

      Deja Vu all over again.

    5. Ian Brotherhood says:

      And will anyone do anything to try and stop it, or even make a sincere stand against it?

      Have swatch at this – who’s that behind Robin Cook?:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWmAQO_mDGc

    6. tinchick says:

      here, and I thought that was Esther Rantzen 😮

    7. fletch49er says:

      Like who’s going to sell them “ready meal style” ballistic nuclear weapons? or Where have their nuclear physicist and engineers suddenly appeared from? Where have all the technicians, engineers etc required to build nuclear arms suddenly come from?? Doh!! (_8(|)

    8. Grouse Beater says:

      Deja Vu all over again.

      The old ones are always the best. 🙂

    9. mike cassidy says:

      And all they need to sex it up is a pig’s head.

    10. Valerie says:

      Nauseating drum beat.

      🙁

    11. galamcennalath says:

      In 2013 Cameron wasn’t allowed to bomb Assad. Obama backed down for his own reasons. Now Russia has firmly backed Assad and seems intent on keeping him in power.

      Being a cynic, I reckon ISIS have given the West an excuse to get involved in Syria as a counter move to Russia.

      It could have a silver lining. Stalemate with the West backing their proxy forces fighting Assad (as Turkey may have just done this morning), Russia backing Assad. The sensible way out would be to negotiate an inclusive settlement.

      Or, it could all go tits up!

    12. Dan Huil says:

      The Butcher’s Apron wants more blood.

    13. Kevin Evans says:

      There is no words to begin describing how sicking this makes me feel

    14. Valerie says:

      Dan Huil says:
      24 November, 2015 at 12:56 pm
      The Butcher’s Apron wants more blood.

      That blood has never dried, and it never will.

      Putin now calling the jet, a stab in the back from accomplices of terrorists.

    15. I see the Anti Trident, Scotland`s one and only Labour MP Ian Murray has not even bothered to turn up to the Trident Renewal Debate at his place of work.

    16. ArtyHetty says:

      It seems that Western governments are the real enemy. With the nasty bunch at the helm in ukok, many are terrified in their own country, not of any bombs, but of their communities being left to rot, due to cuts to services, by the poor being sanctioned and left to starve. People are fearful for the future, because this millionaire ramshackle, dishonest, self interested lot in ukok, could not give a stuff about renewables, or climate change.

      Maybe Camoron’s big fat airfarce2 will whisk him off to another planet when the chips are down. When they either get the big boys toys out i.e. nukes, or when the ice melts and drowns most of the worlds population.

      Marching got us knowhere last time, the voters were completely ignored.

      Just as an aside I read a great post on fb yesterday, about a racist little twat harassing two Pakistani girls on the Newcastle metro, (saying ‘I am English’ and should have their seat etc) anyway, the whole carraige turned on him, in support of the girls, all kinds of people and he had to get off the train.

      That is how we will counter the war mongers, by refusing to play along with their destructive, death wish for others, tactics.

    17. Macart says:

      @Grouse Beater

      I’m a fan of the classics. 🙂

    18. What kind of country are we living in where people put up with this kind of system of government they do not represent the peoples views at all only big buisiness and their tax avoiding friends it’s time for a,British Spring

    19. David says:

      Why change a winning formulae?

    20. Dr Jim says:

      WAR !! What is it good for, Absolutely Nuthin, Say it again

      And again and again and again…….

      Catchy though

    21. Proud Cybernat says:

      The SNP better vote against this. And no abstentuons either. And so, once again, the UK drags Sotland into a war its people are dead set against.

      Better Together? For who, exactly? Your son and your daughter who could be sent to the slaughter?

    22. Scaredy cat says:

      This movie is doing the rounds so apologies if you have seen it already. It talks about the need for a new investigation into 9/11 because the story we have been told is simply not credible. It’s a good couple of hours long but definitely worth watching.

      https://m.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/3kdo9s/911_decade_of_deception_full_film_new_2015/
      The aftermath, which lead to the lies about WMDs is clear to see.

      I am of the opinion that anyone who saw the twin towers come down knew it was a controlled explosion but we swallowed the story because the truth was too hard to stomach. We need to toughen up. The world is not a pretty place and the people in charge care nothing about us.

    23. Lollysmum says:

      Ian Brotherhood at 12.41pm

      Have swatch at this – who’s that behind Robin Cook?
      Well spotted Ian-Corbyn was one of the first to applaud Robin Cook’s announcement of his resignation & a whole host of Labour MP’s gave him a standing ovation.

      Labour MP’s have changed significantly since that day.

    24. Andrew McLean says:

      Macart @grouse Beater

      As a friend one told me, musically I like all the immortals pity there all dead.

    25. Sinky says:

      No respect for SNP by the cradle of democracy as nothing but empty green benches for Trident debate.

      O/T Jackie Baillie trawling the depths of the gutter as reported on BBC Radio Scotland 1 pm news calling for by election in Glasgow East and drawing comparison with Carmichael’s smearing of a political opponent.

      More O/T Labour supporting Carole Ford attacking SNP Education record in Hootsman and others

    26. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Ian Brotherhood earlier posted a You Tube clip of Robin Cook’s resignation speech, which had Jeremy Corbyn sitting behind him.

      It is a minor point, but, Corby was one of the first to start clapping Cook’s speech – and there was the SNP being told, 12-years later, that you could not clap in the House.

      Aye, one rule for the Unionists, another for the Sweaties.

    27. handclapping says:

      And to add to their lies “£178bn is spent” when it won’t arrive till 2025 by which time it will be 10 years out of date. Hey, but that’s the Corporate Media for you. 🙁

    28. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood

      Seems the Commons rules have changed a bit since that Robin Cook resignation. Or is it just okay for Unionist MPs to clap their approval, just not the SNP?

    29. Ken500 says:

      Labour/Unionists running away again. They are a disgrace. Their abstinence caused years of war, banking fraud and years of debt. They will be in the bars on expenses. No abstinence there. Drink/drugs should be introduced in Westminster. Addicts make poor decisions. Cameron is an alcoholic. Some snort coke or abuse pigs.

    30. Breeks says:

      Don’t worry. It will all be over by Christmas.

      Honest.

    31. John H. says:

      I think that the developing situation over Syria is more dangerous than the Cuban missile crisis. Then, there were only the USA and the USSR opposing each other, so it was easier for the two to negotiate behind the scenes to eventually resolve the crisis.

      Now we have so many nations getting involved that, apart from the obvious dangers, it would only take a slip up by one of the governments to set in motion a train of events that would be unstoppable.

      On top of that, the West’s leaders are less than inspiring, with Obama on his way out, and a gung ho Cameron who can’t see ahead beyond the end of his nose. We also have a vengeful French president, so overcome with anger and genuine grief for his people that he surely isn’t thinking straight.

      On the other side we have Assad, fighting for his survival, backed by Russia and Iran, both powerful and aggressive nations., both fond of flexing their muscles. It would be all too easy to slip into a full blown war.

      Remember, World War 1, like most wars, was started by accident.

    32. Jimbo says:

      The message from our Westminster government is: Be afraid, be very afraid.

    33. baronesssamedi says:

      Ho hum. The first casualty of war is Truth. Yet again.

    34. Ken500 says:

      Moray 400 new staff and three planes. BBC the great renaissnace

      Scottish Oil sector taxed at 75%. Losing thousands of jobs including the supply chain. More Oil has to be imported putting up the balance of payments deficit, the debt and destroying the British economy.

    35. sensibledave says:

      Proud Cybernat 1:18 pm

      You wrote: The SNP better vote against this. And no abstentuons either. And so, once again, the UK drags Sotland into a war its people are dead set against.Better Together? For who, exactly? Your son and your daughter who could be sent to the slaughter?”

      … just so I know, could you let me know what you, personally, think we should do about ISIL. I think the options are:

      1. Leave them alone and do nothing
      2. Leave them alone but try to stop their funding so that in a couple of years time they will stop bombing western cities and killing innocents throughout the middle east indiscriminately because they have run out of bombs and bullets.
      3. Have a chat with them about their understanding of the Quran such that they completely change their views on the way they behave towards non ISIL supporters and accept that they misunderstood the Quran up to this point – but will change now.
      4. Try to kill those ISIL fighters that have unilaterally declared war on me and you, our friends and our families and want to kill us all, and are using every effort available to achieve that aim on a daily basis.

      … forgive me if I have missed an option.

      Do tell.

    36. Andrew McLean says:

      John H

      Started by accident but all nations were itching to get stuck in, not like today when, oh maybe not!

    37. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Why not just settle it all with a cage fight between Putin and Cameron?

      (It would be worth it just to see what outfit Cameron would pick – BTUKOK spandex, designed by McCartney, incorporating a subtle wee pig motif…)

      Go Dave! Kick that Pinko’s ass!

    38. starlaw says:

      So now we need two aircraft carriers when last week we needed one. Where is all the money coming from to pay for all this plus extra army brigades and armoured vehicles. Where are all the new recruits to man and crew this war machine, they cant get recruits now.
      I seriously think Cameron has taken leave of his senses and the lunatics have taken over the asylum, its a panic to join the big boys gang and to hell with the consequences.

    39. Anagach says:

      They probably are trying to get nuclear weapons, just as they are trying to get decent anti-air weapons.

      Why should Cameron get upset after all its more aspirational…than real.

    40. Andrew McLean says:

      Hi Sensible,

      Yes lets invade and kill al-Qaeda then we will hear no more from that region!

      Oh did I say al-Qaeda, of course I meant IS, the buggers keep morphing into something else, if only we could eradicate everyone who hates us now wouldn’t that be great, any sensible suggestions in achieving that?

    41. Bob Mack says:

      Loving the debate on Trident. Michael Fallon wittering on about dedication and determination of the of the crews is interrupted by an SNP member who states her husband serves on HMS Victorious and does not agree with nuclear weapons.
      Fallons adams apple was shaking with fear.

    42. Almannysbunnet says:

      To make sure we and the world get the correct message the government has just announced that it is investing £85 million a year on the BBC world service. Lord Hall says “The millions announced today will help the BBC deliver on our commitment to uphold global democracy through accurate, impartial and independent news reporting.
      Think about that. The Government is investing in the BBC to provide impartial and independent news. Yeah right!
      They even have the cheek to announce it on the arts and entertainment page.
      http://tinyurl.com/ochb32k

    43. The Man in the Jar says:

      Just wait till Donald Trump gets his feet under the desk in the oval office. Then the fun and games will really get going.

    44. Foonurt says:

      sensibledave – yurr free tae hop ower, in gee thoan yins ah talkin tae.

    45. Bob Mack says:

      @sensibledave.

      You can kill the body ,the ideal is something else. It will flourish wherever it can

    46. Andrew McLean says:

      Sensible Dave

      4-1

    47. schrodingers cat says:

      @Macart

      what’s french for Deja Vu?

      re Russian jet, the next 12 hrs will be a game changer, will Obama side with Russia or turkey?

      ps, no one cares what Cameron thinks, he will wait for Obama to decide

      re-isis

      lock down border with Saudi,kuwait and Jordon. plug hole in Kurdish Syrian border with turkey, starve all rebels of support and armements. fund kurdish peshmerga

      we could do this without bombing the rebels and assad would slowly strangle the rebels

    48. sensibledave says:

      Andrew McLean at 1:50 pm

      …. very droll Andrew. However, it is very easy to shout at everyone else’s solution or way forward with respect to ISIL – when you haven’t proposed anything yourself.

      On the basis that you accept that ISIL have vowed to try and kill you and your family and friends along with me, my loved ones, the rest of the UK, Europe and the West – in fact everyone who doesn’t accept their interpretation of the Quran – If you were the Prime minister, what would you propose we do about ISIL? And I mean ISIL – not Al Qaeda, Syrians, Kurds, Saudis, Iraqis, etc.

      Please don’t give me the “we shouldn’t be starting from here” response. We are “here” and this is our only starting point.

    49. schrodingers cat says:

      Bob Mack

      devastating intervension by snp

    50. heedtracker says:

      Foonurt says:
      24 November, 2015 at 2:05 pm
      sensibledave – yurr free tae hop ower, in gee thoan yins ah talkin tae.

      Did you consider this option sensibledave 3 or 4 this week?

      Same red and blue tory arseholes in London that destroyed our referendum last year with Project Fear, now want more bloodshed, in middle east, that they help cause in first place , shock.

      Stay out of it all teamGB.

      Your bawbag red and blue toryboy masters may cause WW3 and haven’t a clue what to do, expect spread their lies and fear pouring out of the BBC.

      Thanks again proud Scot buts.

    51. Bob Mack says:

      @sensibledave,

      Firstly, why do you think ISIL are attacking civilian targets where they are? Random choice perhaps? No,afraid not.

      Try to understand we cannot kill ISIL. It is an ideal ,not just a physical presence.
      Can you eradicate Catholocism, Protestantism, Judaism ?

      Jihad has become their religion instead of Islam,which is similar to what has happened withmany breakaway sects from Christianity

    52. geeo says:

      I know this is a bit o/t.

      Watching the trident renewal debate and this nugget stood up to speak.

      John Woodcock. (Labour, Barrow and Furness).

      One for the Rev to highlight later perhaps as he is allowed by the speaker to call the SNP Members ‘robots’ despite a point of order, and flat refusing to take ANY SNP interventions.

      A great example of how deep labour hatred runs for the SNP.

    53. schrodingers cat says:

      dave
      ISIL, Al Qaeda,Saudis, are all wahabists, southern sunni Iraqis are also wahabists,
      the sunnis in southern and northern Syria are also wahabist
      they all want to convert or kill you and your family

      the Iraqis in the north are a mixture of shia and sunni
      as are Syrians, including Alawites and they are not wahhabists, neither are the kurds in the north of syrai and iraq

      they do not wish to convert or kill you and your family

      a big difference, worth making. indeed it was the us and uk failure to recognise this very simple fact which is why we are in this mess

    54. ScottieDog says:

      SNP are branded ‘robots’ now. Lol
      Better than establishment robots

    55. Andrew Haddow says:

      @sensibledave

      “unilaterally”?

      Year Zero again, is it?

    56. Andrew McLean says:

      Well David,
      since your asking me to be Prime Minister, your first sensible suggestion I may add, I would sort out my own house first!

      Then I would agree that ISIS is a problem, but I would not give them what they want, in fact I would do what I could to stop air attacks, at present all that is happening is the weakening of those who oppose ISIS by Russia and the death of innocents by French bombers not reported by our media. I would seek agreement from the rest of NATO to sanction Turkey and instruct them to take no further action in assisting ISIS. That means stop the oil flow, I would seek UN resolution for a DMZ covering Turkey border with Syria, The removal of ISIS is a UN matter the UK is not a world power anymore.

      Remember Cameron has the intellect of a dead pig, he told us no way would Russia support airstrikes he said Russia would hold a gun to his head? then Russia in the UN did. I know the US want control of Syria, but their wishes could result in a damned worse state than IS ever could?

    57. heedtracker says:

      Rule Britannia red and blue Toryboys like sensibledave4? couldn’t give a toss about IS. They are merely using it to force opposition to heal, in their UK minority elected UK and especially their Scotland region.

      The reason there is no ground war against IS even planned by our red and blue Tory goon show in Wesminster, is because there is no where to invade. When Bomber Bliar and our red Tory chums in Westminster went to war in 2003, like the maniacs and buffoons they really are, they had no exit strategy but they did at lest have a target, Baghdad and the Ba’th rulers.

      Where would they invade now? Syria, Iraq, Southern Turkey, Yemen?

      Red and blue Toryboy world has created a horror that can only be dealt with by, fcuk knows what. Send for Middle East peace envoy, Bomber Bliar. His No.2 Crash Gordon’s too busy hammering the Scots, in Luxury, and in Fife.

      Just saying sensibledave4, how come no one is asking that maniac what to do about the endless horror he helped create.

    58. Papadox says:

      Fear and greed works well and has done for 300+ years, so why change a winning formula?

    59. Macart says:

      @schrodingers cat

      I’m hoping this incident will pull ALL of the powers up short and give them a pause for thought moment.

      You can’t bomb an ideology into the stone age and terrorism knows no borders. You can only starve it of fuel and materiel support. You could turn Syria into a parking lot and the cells would simply up sticks and move elsewhere.

      The powers need to remove themselves from this theatre and work together to starve the fire of oxygen. Problem being there’s too much blood in their eyes, sabre rattling and vested interest.

      I’m no expert on the middle east, but anyone can see this already tragic situation is heading down a dangerous and potentially catastrophic path.

    60. sensibledave says:

      Various Bob Mack, Andrew McLean, Headbanger

      The theme keeps coming! Everyone here is against everything. But no one has got any idea what they are “for”.

      Should I assume therefore that the collective response from Wings followers is that Scotland, the UK, the USA, France, the “west” should do nothing with respect to ISIL?

      Is that it? Is that the policy? If I ignore it then it will go away? Leave it to everyone else? Has Ms Sturgeon called President Hollande and shared those thoughts?

      You all criticise from the sidelines without offering a single positive proposal?

      If ISIL terrorists killed 100 people in the centre of Glasgow tonight, would that still be your policy tomorrow?

      I can respect pacifism if pacifism is lies at the heart of someone’s argument. I despise it if it is an opportunist, faux, political stance to avoid declaring a policy position.

    61. Watching the Trident debate I have to say, the blood is up for war among our English MP`s.

    62. Those unionist politicians who are all for bombing Daesh
      in Syria, should tell us what their foreign policy of bombing has achieved so far in the middle East in defeating terrorism.

      Has Afghanistan and Iraq suddenly become peaceful democratic states where the ordinary people are able to go about their daily business without fear of becoming a victim of a terrorist attack?

      The refugee crisis Europe is experiencing and the terrorist attacks that have occurred in Paris says otherwise.

      in my view, terrorism can only be properly dealt with by that Arab states themselves, any intervention by the Christian West will be portrayed by Islamic fundamentalists
      as being a crusade against Islam.

    63. Andrew McLean says:

      So American trained Turkmen militants kill Russian airmen as they try to parachute to safety after NATO Turkey jets shoot their jet down? Putin claims he will respond, but against who? I hope you all realize Putin is a bit of a nutter!
      Is that secret bunker in fife still open?

    64. donald anderson says:

      Turkey begging for Xmas?

    65. liz says:

      The war mongers should be put on the front line or have their children ‘volunteer’ to be boots on the ground.

      The British establishment have always been the same, sitting in offices miles from the action.

      In US rich families could get their children excluded from conscription for Vietnam.

    66. heedtracker says:

      Here you go sensibledave3. Hard core Vote no or else unionist British zealots, red and blue tory, all hard core unionists, to a madman or, We Want WAR, so vote NO, for UKOK strength, UKOK power, UKOK unity, SNP bad.

      Its not a pretty sight sensibledave4. First up helped create #SNPout tactical voting debacle last May GE here in your Scotland region.

      But what ever you do, wear a clothes peg on your hooter, its going to get very UKOK wants a bloody good war stinky

      https://twitter.com/Effiedeans?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

      eek

      https://twitter.com/kevverage

      ew

      https://twitter.com/drscottthinks

      and last but not least sensibledave5? one BetterTogether swivel eyed loony from Slovenia

      https://twitter.com/ProfTomkins?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

      Glad to help sensible.

    67. Andrew McLean says:

      Sensible actually I gave you a few good starters, you wish to continue with the same old course of action and expect a different result this time, when will you realize it wont work!
      you cant kill IS with bombs, its a philosophy! the minute you invade again, the minute the west attacks IS it will return to the dozens of countries its members come from, and then what? You think you end global terrorism? really now that is naive!

    68. Can anyone see if Carmichael has a tag round his ankle?

    69. Stoops says:

      Perpetual war is the desire of those who sell arms to both sides and who have interests in these countries resources. These are the same people who work the strings and manipulate governments. This warmongering and propaganda will never cease unless people stop tolerating it.

      The U.K. Has been in hawk to these people since Waterloo.

    70. Jimbo says:

      ISLAMIC State (ISIS) jihadis could “kill 10,000 people in Trafalgar Square next week” if they are not wiped off the face of the earth, a defence chief warned tonight.

      http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/621579/Islamic-State-ISIS-terror-attack-Britain-airstrikes-Syria-Tory-MP-Cameron-Corbyn

      He doesn’t say how they will manage to kill 10,000 people in one go, but the propaganda just keeps on coming so thick and fast it’s becoming stupid. The number 10,000 seems to be popular in Westminster right now. Cameron has announced that 10,000 soldiers are to flood Britain’s streets, obviously to remind the public to be feart. It’s reported elsewhere that Britain is to dedicate 10,000 elite troops to fight Isis. They don’t say if it’s the same 10,000 that are to flood the streets.

      If Isis have sophisticated weapons, why haven’t they used one? They’re certainly fanatical enough. How come they’re reduced to making home-made bombs and bomb belts in back street houses? If they’re such crack terrorists, and are so evil, why haven’t they attacked Faslane or Aldermaston or France’s equivalent?

      The Westminster government’s propaganda is sickening and I won’t allow it to effect on me. I refuse to be cowed by these Westminster chancers. I think I’d be more scared of the likes of Isa from Still Game than I would be of an attack from Isis right now.

    71. One_Scot says:

      SNP x 2

    72. schrodingers cat says:

      agreed macart

      that’s why I support the snp’s call for a un resolution.

      it would enable the wahhabist to be starved of munition and support

      this would happen with a un resolution

      unfortunately, the un resolution would also include bombing the hell out of even more people by Chinese, Russian and us forces, which as you point out wont kill an ideology, but will clip its wings in a very short space of time

      what really needs to be done long term is for the Saudis to stop opening Wahhabi universities and schools across the muslim world, enforce closure, and for the Saudis to crack down on wahhabist activities

    73. Rob James says:

      @ senseless Dave.

      No doubt you will be the first volunteer to join the ground invasion which will inevitably have to follow the aerial bombardment. Unfortunately by that time, Daesh will have wandered off to attack pastures new, and your sole purpose, in what remains of Syria, will be to bury the thousands of dead civilians. (At the moment, they are losing thirty to every one member of Daesh.)

      Then what?

      OT Does anyone have a link for TV tax cancellation which gives details of access restriction etc.?

    74. Bob Mack says:

      @sensibledave,

      You want revenge, not a solution.

      Let us clear one thing up. I ain’t no pacifist.

      When the cultural revolution happened in Iran and Ayatollah Khomeni took power why did we not intervene? During the Iran/Iraq war why did we not intervene? The list is endless.

      The Arab world has been in conflict for hundreds of years Dave with very little sympathy from the West. If not for their richness in resources, we would have left them to it.

      Do you seriously believe we want to be generous and kindly to them now, or perhaps wish to protect some interest?

      My solution is simple. Leave them to it. Daesh who may currently be a friend to some in the region, or an enemy to others, will soon become an enemy to all should they become too powerful,and pose a threat to their creators and financiers.

    75. Jim McIntosh says:

      @sensibledave

      Sorry to break this to you but – ISIL is not a person. It’s a false idea that for reasons too complicated for a blog people are drawn to.

      We cannot bomb ISIL out of existence because it’s not in one place. If as is suggested ISIL was involved in the Paris deaths are you suggesting we bomb France an Belgium, or is it just OK to bomb towns in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan to prove how tough we are.

      There must be a UN mandate to bomb Syria. Cameron’s ludicrous statement the other day that “UK security decisions will not be made by Putin” (to paraphrase) is a dangerous step, as he’s basically saying saying “we don’t care what the UN says, we’ll do what we want” (again).

      No one is suggesting doing nothing. We can’t bomb them out of existence, we can, as others have said starve them out. Cut off the money supply, name, shame and sanction any country that continues to deal with them. Anyone in this country who deals with them, through third parties is jailed.

    76. schrodingers cat says:

      @sensibledaveNov2015#aboutteatime

      The theme keeps coming! Everyone here is against everything. But no one has got any idea what they are “for”.

      I think its is clear what we are for, snp policy, a un resolution with the backing of china Russia and the us

      (no one cares what a piss ant minnow like Cameron or corbyn thinks)

      this will stop the wahhabists being funded, supported, supplied, armed, provisioned and recruitment by turks Saudis and the us. even if the un 5 permanent nations stop bombing the wahhabists, isis, al Qaeda, al nusra etc, (which is unlikely) assad and the kurds will take care of them. they will retreat back into saudi

    77. call me dave says:

      Julien Lewis Chair of Defence waffling away his (now restricted to 4 mins) he better may his point! ….anytime sooooooooonn!

      Ach! Too late, pity,…

      Although he did say that it’s OK for us to have them but not those other folk and better for the wee non-nuke countries to be under the UK wing to give protection.

      UK system is autonomous he says.

      Fascinate stuff, because the next chap Roger Goodsiff says “that’s a myth” and quotes Harold Wilson.

      🙁

    78. Will Podmore says:

      schrodingers cat writes, “what really needs to be done long term is for the Saudis to stop opening Wahhabi universities and schools across the muslim world, enforce closure, and for the Saudis to crack down on wahhabist activities.”
      True, but how will this happen? The Saudi fascists are backed to the hilt by the USA and its NATO allies.
      The House of Commons Foreign Affairs Committee has strongly opposed the government’s intention to extend British military operations to Syria. Its report, HC 457 of 3 November, summed up, “We believe that there should be no extension of British military action into Syria unless there is a coherent international strategy that has a realistic chance of defeating ISIL and of ending the civil war in Syria. In the absence of such a strategy, taking action to meet the desire to do something is still incoherent. We consider that the focus on the extension of airstrikes against ISIL in Syria is a distraction from the much bigger and more important task of finding a resolution to the conflict in Syria and thereby removing one of the main facilitators of ISIL’s rise.”
      The British people have no national interest in turning Syria into another Libya – now a country with no government, lawless, borderless, and a breeding ground for jihadists. No British intervention in Syria!

    79. Andrew McLean says:

      NEWS ALERT
      Ministry of Truth 14:59 Who are the Turkmen? well absolutely not US special forces embedded and trained and supplied by NATO member Turkey.

      Remember comrades we Oceania’s have always been at war with Eurasia, and Eastasia! Captain Sensible requires various unpersons Bob Mack, Andrew McLean, Headbanger report to the ministry of Love for re-education

    80. sensibledave says:

      Andrew McLean 3:09 pm

      You wrote “Sensible actually I gave you a few good starters”

      No you didn’t Andrew, you wrote: “Well David, since your asking me to be Prime Minister, your first sensible suggestion I may add, I would sort out my own house first!

      ….. so, to paraphrase that paragraph – do nothing to ISIL

      Then you wrote: “in fact I would do what I could to stop air attacks, at present all that is happening is the weakening of those who oppose ISIS by Russia and the death of innocents by French bombers not reported by our media.”

      ….. to paraphrase, do nothing to ISIL

      then you wrote: “I would seek agreement from the rest of NATO to sanction Turkey and instruct them to take no further action in assisting ISIS. That means stop the oil flow, I would seek UN resolution for a DMZ covering Turkey border with Syria, The removal of ISIS is a UN matter the UK is not a world power anymore.”

      …. to paraphrase, do nothing to ISIL other than cut off an oil pipe line.

      Then “you cant kill IS with bombs, its a philosophy! …. ”

      … factually wrong, ISIL is made up of mortals as well as a philosophy. A dead ISIL fighter can’t behead an Aid Worker or blow themselves up in a market or kill 10,000 yazidis on a mountain top.

      Then you wrote: “the minute you invade again, the minute the west attacks IS it will return to the dozens of countries its members come from, and then what? You think you end global terrorism? really now that is naive!”

      ….. To paraphrase – do nothing to ISIL.

      In summary, in amongst all the bluster, your only policy to combat ISIL is cut off an oil pipeline?

      Best you try and change the subject away from ISIL again – because if that is the extent of your proposed solution then we are all done for.

    81. De Valera says:

      @ sensibledave
      Theres nothing like a war to make feel we’re all in it together, spirit of the blitz and all that.

      British bombs are the best bombs in the world! Much better than the rubbish Johnny Foreigner’s dropping on them I say.

    82. Bob Mack says:

      @sensibledave,

      If what you say is accurate,try walking in East Belfast singing anti IRA songs. There has been no conflict there for a while so their philosophy might be dead, therefore you may get out unscathed. (But don’t bet on it!!)

    83. Anagach says:

      sensibledave says:
      we are all done for.

      ISIL is not an existential threat to us.

      ISIL is a threat to the people it occupies who dont agree with its very narrow harsh Sunni interpretation.

      Killing Syrians and Iraqis with a few old bombers will not change anything for the better.

      The USA and France have been bombing for 14 months, the Russian 2 months. The UK can add nothing to that but more collateral damage (which means dead people who meant no harm).

    84. Dr Jim says:

      They keep warning of all the threats to the mighty UK and if we didn’t have all our mightyness all the bad people would attack us,
      Well, just two thoughts on that, Firstly, WHY do they hate good old Britain with such venom as Nuke Supporters say they do

      Secondly, if we fear the bad people so much and we don’t want Nuclear Weapons anyway but we just must have them because they exist

      Why don’t we just Nuke everybody we don’t like now and get it over with, I mean there’ll be nobody left to argue
      and then we won’t have any enemies, job done, future money saved, peace and harmony throughout the polluted world

      One more thing, Scotland voted overwhelmingly for an anti Trident party, The SNP, The Labour party, such as they are represent most of what’s left population wise, and they voted against renewal of Trident, The Greens are against Trident, The Independents are against Trident, I’m struggling to find many who are for it

      So Scotland as a Nation says: Take your Trident and shove it, but England, not the UK, England says: No democracy here Fukc off Scotland

      Pretty clear then is it not First Minister

    85. Andrew McLean says:

      Sensible
      there are at least 400 card carrying supporters of ISIS living in the UK today.
      By your logic we attack whom exactly, oh yeah its easy to kill kiddies when your 8 miles high, so let it be somewhere far away and from the air because that would come back and bite our arse again!
      David blind revenge is no solution, a crime was committed in Paris, yes its disgusting, but by bombing innocents in another land you become all you profess to hate and ISIS win. Don’t you get it they want you to fight them militarily because its all they have. The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.

    86. Dr Jim says:

      I know you’re all polite and nice tolerant folks Wingers
      and it’s a bit of fun

      But why oh why do you bother entertaining these idiots?
      They’re not here to discuss anything and we all know it, they’re just Arses

    87. Sharny Dubs says:

      I’m in the far north of Iraq right now, stranded actually, (Kurdistan) because presently there is a “no-fly” policy for civil aviation for the next 48 hours due to the amount of military action flying back and forth overhead, and folks here just shake their heads and shrug. Another “intervention” in their lives, their land. Everyone else gets involved but they are the ones who suffer and die. We should learn to keep out of other peoples business.

    88. schrodingers cat says:

      podmore
      True, but how will this happen? The Saudi fascists are backed to the hilt by the USA and its NATO allies.

      the usa and nato have begun to realise they have been backing the wrong rebels in Iraq and Syria and are in the process of changing side

      that’s why Russia intervened when they did as the enemy of the wahhabists, just as the us and nato are moving to the same position. it makes putin look strong and Obama look weak.

      it is also why the uk msm are running a propaganda campaign telling everyone that the war with ” Oceania is not at war with Eurasia but Eastasia”

      wingsoverscotland.com/a-small-revision-of-history/

      apparently the fault of Goldstein, the legendary leader of the Brotherhood

    89. Bob Mack says:

      @Dr Jim,

      It’s a slow day!

    90. Andrew McLean says:

      Dr Jim
      For me two words Hegelian dialectic.

    91. sensibledave says:

      Andrew

      …. as usual you conflate all sorts of issues and then retreat to a situation where because you can’t solve all of the issues – you shouldn’t try and solve any.

      To state the obvious, Card carrying members of ISIL are free to go about their business in the UK – right up until they break the law or conspire to break the law. It called a free society.

      The theme remains the same – take no action against ISIL fighters, no matter what they do or who they do it to.

    92. Awizgonny says:

      @sensibledave

      I went through all your comments here looking for what you believe should be done, and how ISIS could be stopped, and found not one clearly expressed position or strategy from you, despite your own criticisms of the lack of the same from others on this thread.

      So tell us what you would do? What’s your strategy? Can we have it as clearly as you expect of others here?

      In the meantime, you might consider the old saying that an army marches on its stomach, and don’t be too quick to dismiss cutting off oil lines as a legitimate part of a strategy. ISIS are getting the money from sonewhere for arms, food and ammunition. Who are they trading with? Where do they keep their funds? How do they manage those funds? And how do we stop that? That would certainly be high on my list of how to stop them.

      What’s your strategy? Do tell. Oh, and BTW, just saying “try to kill ISIS” is no more a strategy than saying we should not.

    93. Andrew McLean says:

      schrodingers cat says 3:36
      Thats what i ment but couldny get me comphentions wright!

      Bloody intellectual! bet you got your English “O”level!

    94. Les Wilson says:

      Watching the debate on Trident, it makes me wonder why the SNP just say if Westminster wants nuclear weapons, then have them, but not in our name.
      Remove them from Scotland NOW!

      Place them somewhere in the South of England. Be happy with that.Somewhere where people may really want them.

      That would allow the English warmongers in Westminster face their own folk. Just leave us out of it, and for a change, far away from us.

    95. Andrew McLean says:

      sensibledave says:4:00pm
      In the name of God man read what you wrote! So in Syria Isis is a threat but you have no evidence none that they are responsible but you glorify the bombing of these children http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/pray-for-syria-killing-of-innocent-civilians-condemned-a6735836.html
      that’s a UK main media!
      Your response is just bomb more! Yes that’s it ye ha kill those mother fekers ye ha!

      Right up until they break the law or conspire to break the law. It called a free society. but not a free world ugh! Sensible poor show man!

    96. Dr Jim says:

      @Andrew McLean

      Man !!

    97. Jack Murphy says:

      call me dave said at 3:28pm:-“UK system [Trident] is autonomous he says.
      Fascinate stuff, because the next chap Roger Goodsiff says “that’s a myth” and quotes Harold Wilson.”

      Here’s a retired senior UK military man saying the same.
      YouTube:-
      http://tinyurl.com/nhan4yb

    98. I don’t know how sensible Dave is but you who are stupid enough to reply to him are certainly not he is winding you up and in turn taking over the entire subject all we read is him then yous replying to him blog after blog he is making you look foolish by even answering him so please stop replying to him let him be met with a roaring silence or is that to sensible?

    99. Andrew McLean says:

      Sensible Dave, Sorry Dr Jim is correct, poor show Man!

      manners make’th the man and all that!

    100. Dan Huil says:

      Devolved matter or not, Holyrood should hold its own vote on further military involvement in Syria by uk forces.

    101. Andrew McLean says:

      Blair Paterson
      You know you may have a point his rhetoric is becoming devoid of logos, pathos or ethos!

    102. Sinky says:

      So Labour have voted For Against and Abstained over Trident.

      To Paraphrase Ian Murray “Its incredibly clear that Labour clearly doesn’t have clear policy on Trident.

      And we should remind media that Ian Murray has never voted against Trident renewal at any time in the last five years when Trident has been debated in the House of Commons.

    103. Valerie says:

      Jimbo @ 3.12, good post.

      Another thing worth noting about the warmongers, they never seem to be in the line of fire, or the target, even when stood right in the stadium next to the shooters.

      Civilians are the best targets to create diversion and confusion. If it works for the terrorist, it’s good enough for Cameron to use.

      Lots of commentary now about how USA has been pretending to bomb for the last year, or they are highly incompetent. Putin is in for 6 weeks with superior hardware and technology, and is making significant progress.

      So it makes you wonder about why this jet has been taken down now.

      Stay safe to winger sharny dubs.

    104. galamcennalath says:

      OT events in WM.

      Perhaps we should put out a leaflet FOR Labour.

      Nice and simple. Explain to a partly gullible Scottish public what Labour (HQ not branch) ACTUALLY stand for! Feature nothing but the truth based on the stances they display at WM, not their PR rhetoric.

    105. galamcennalath says:

      Les Wilson says:

      “… it makes me wonder why the SNP just say if Westminster wants nuclear weapons, then have them …. Remove them from Scotland NOW!”

      Good point. Perhaps it’s time for the SNP to something before WM stating WMDs should be removed from Scotland in accordance with the democratic will of the Scottish people. If WM voted to keep them in Scotland, then that would perhaps bring that issue to a head! Triggers (no pun intended) and all ….

    106. Valerie says:

      Oh that’s a surprise!

      America says it’s not clear where the jet was,so nothing to do with them.

      Expect similar from Hameron shortly.

    107. galamcennalath says:

      Valerie says:

      “So it makes you wonder about why this jet has been taken down now.”

      Russia’s involvement now means the Assad regime is almost guaranteed to survive in some form.

      Remember, a couple of short years ago, the West was on the verge of bombing Assad or enforcing a no fly zone over Syria. That would have seriously damaged the regime, possibly hastening its fall. It didn’t happen.

      In Cold War 2 terms, Russia played a blinder by getting a base set up inside Syria and ensuring their influence was secured regionally.

      The Russians are hammering Turkish, Saudi and Qatari backed groups. Directly or indirectly these groups are doing the West’s bidding.

      This is where cynicism makes me suspicious of everything else going on. Have Isis given the West an excuse to get more directly involved? Is Turkey’s action accidental or part of a game plan to send Russia a message to lay off proxy forces? Are the West more widely complicit in Turkey’s actions?

    108. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ S’Dave#5

      “But no one has got any idea what they are “for”.”

      I’m all “FOR” Scottish Indy as are the vast majority on this blog. That way Scotland and its people will not be dragged against our will into another useless, senseless war that won’t ‘fix’ anything and will, without doubt, just make things very much worse. Anyone who does not see that as the eventual outcome of the war hungry, blood-thirsty SaberNats is simply deluding themselves.

      So, come and join the majority here, S’Dave#5. You know it makes sense.

    109. galamcennalath says:

      I see Ian Murray abstained, while 6 of his Labour colleagues voted with the SNP.

      He has expressed clearly to His constituents that he doesn’t care one way or the other about Trident.

      So, not even the North British Branch can present a coherent stance on Trident.

    110. David says:

      @ ArtyHetty, here is a report on that incident in Newcastle, where a trainload of passengers stood up against a stupid bully, in support of two muslim women:

      http://thelondoneconomic.com/news/muslim-woman-thanks-geordie-passengers-during-racist-rant/24/11

      Nice to see good news being reported for once!
      (It was retweeted by Rev Stu on the Wings Twitter page.)

    111. Dan Huil says:

      Reporting “Scotland” leading with “scandal”. Aye, never mind the war and Trident, bbc in Scotland knows its place and is determined to put Scotland in its place.

      The bbc in Scotand is truly disgusting.

    112. Craig P says:

      SNP members are robots are they? From Asimov’s Three Laws of Robotics:

      “A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.”

      I will take that from my MPs…!

    113. Jimbo says:

      I see Ian Murray abstained, while 6 of his Labour colleagues voted with the SNP

      A man who claims to be anti Trident but hasn’t the courage of his convictions. Either that or he’s another London Labour liar who wants to con the voters in his constituency.

    114. call me dave says:

      Disappointed not to see Ian Murray (anti- Trident) obeying the real labour party 1-line whip and not attending the debate.

      Obviously we have had it confirmed that Kezia is really the Branch Manager after all.

      Shurely schome mishtake on the count because I never saw nearly 400 MPs in the place while I was watching, there was plenty of room because the full labour party wasn’t there, including Jeremy!

    115. ahundredthidiot says:

      Democracy won the day two years ago and now the West is behind in the race to secure major sources of oil.

      Plenty people buy the Idiot Media stories, particularly the ‘hard sell’ ones like Paris.

      So, just like before, the Meat Grinder cranks into action.

      We need to seriously reconsider our alliance with the USA, and action should be taken against the war criminals who led us into Iraq by means of arresting the whole cabinet of the day.

    116. ScottieDog says:

      @jimbo
      And having his constituents believe he was anti-trident pre election..

    117. Ruby says:

      Stoops says:
      24 November, 2015 at 3:12 pm
      This warmongering and propaganda will never cease unless people stop tolerating it.

      Ruby replies

      How do you go about not tolerating it any more?

      I voted yes principally because I did not want to be part of a warmongering nation with the 4th largest defence budget in the world, a nation with weapons of mass destruction who think nothing of taking the country to war illegally.

      I reckon the whole of the UK could march in the streets asking the UK Gov not to bomb Syria for example but it wouldn’t make a blind bit of difference.

      Young men could refuse to join the military but then the government would just introduce National service.

      The only thing I can think of doing is voting YES again in the next referendum otherwise I don’t know what can be done to stop tolerating it.

    118. broonpot says:

      So, in a few days time after this week’s meeting of the Joint Intelligence Committee we can expect members of the Privy Council to be briefed (by Jon Day Chair of the JIC) on the contents of the latest updated version of the dodgy dossier.

      This year it will of course be called something else – Barmy Briefing? Radge Report? Nutters Note? or Stupid Summary? – but we already know what it will say.

      As soon as its existence is made public I expect a number of twitter polls on its credibility may provide a deal of entertainment.

      I think ridicule may be an effective tool in dealing with the absurdity of any proposal that the UK should try to bomb ISIL / ISIS / DAESH

    119. ScottieDog says:

      It’s very easy for those favouring an air war on Syria – they won’t have to witness the horrible aftermath with bits of innocent children lying in the street. It won’t be covered by any of the UK news outlets. Iraq was a prime example with wall-to-wall footage of the statue of sadam being toppled and people hitting it with sticks. That whole statue affair was stage managed by the Americans.

    120. sensibledave says:

      I’ve tried to write responses to many of the comments above but I just can’t write well enough to express the contempt I feel for some on here – and I keep deleting and having to start again.

      I will try this approach.

      Should I henceforth work on the basis that President Hollande, the French President, who is ally, and who’s people shares the same values as most of the UK (except Scotland it appears) is a warmongering t****r without a brain cell – even though he has the support of his parliament, his people, the USA, a full UN mandate representing the endorsement of most of the planet, and his aims of killing ISIL fighters are futile and will achieve nothing and there is no justification whatsoever for French fighter aircraft bombing ISIL targets.

      Or should I listen to fountains of knowledge and wisdom such as Heedy and many others on here?

    121. gus1940 says:

      Time to resurrect ‘NOT IN MY NAME’.

    122. YerketbreeksDavidDavid says:

      @Ronald Russell I guess this comment is so far down, that you’re not going to spot it, Ronald, but maybe you’d like to comment on the histrionics related to Russian planes approaching, but not entering our airspace, and that the Turkish reaction isn’t too out of kilter with the UK MSM rhetoric about responses.

    123. Helena Brown says:

      Well Senseless we certainly feel the contempt. Now as we also feel the utter contempt being shown to what are our Representatives in Westminster the time has come when you should find another blog to annoy, that way you will not need to engage those you view as contemptible.
      I promise never to speak to you again, to utterly ignore you, you really have nothing worth listening to anyway. So go and start your little war, you know all you war mongers want to.

    124. Bob Mack says:

      President Hollande is supposed to be a Statesman.He should start acting like one.

      Thd contempt by the way is mutual Davey boy.

    125. ahundredthidiot says:

      Ruby

      It will be tolerated because roughly 55% of people are scared stupid animals.

    126. ahundredthidiot says:

      Sensibledave

      If you have such contempt for people on this site then why bother? Getting paid?

      Why not henceforward just fucking do one

    127. Helena Brown says:

      Why has the SNP accepted Natalie McGarry resigning the SNP whip. For God’s sake the SNP have to start showing some support for those who are in the party. Michelle Thomson resigned, still no charges brought and none seem to be in the frame. At the rate this is going, one by one the media will have destroyed the Parliamentary Party.

    128. Grouse Beater says:

      Dippy Dave: “I can’t write well enough to express the contempt I feel for some here”

      But that never stops you posting provokative verbiage.

    129. heedtracker says:

      Has sensibledave1,2,3, or 4 explained why UKOK bombing in Iraq or Syria, will prevent more Paris type terrorist attacks by radicalised Muslims yet?

      UKOK bombing and ground wars of the middle east appears to have radicalised people who are not even from Iraq or Syria. Is it not extremely likely that even more UKOK war and bloodshed in the middle east, will result in even more radicalised terrorism in Europe?

      Maybe pumping even more UKOK money into GCHQ, stripping human rights, even more intrusive mass surveillance, more armed police, sealed borders etc really will work now, in conjunction with bloodshed in war zones like Syria.

    130. Valerie says:

      @sensible

      I very rarely address you, but thanks for reminding me why that is:

      the contempt you feel for some.

      I’m on here to be among folk that hold mostly aligned values, views and opinions, that chime with mine.

      We debate issues, pass comment, within a broadly similar viewpoint.

      Why are you on here – are you an argumentative masochist?

      What is the point?

    131. Gary45% says:

      gus1940@5.52
      Totally agree.
      As far as Murray goes he is a pathetic little shi*, a wee creepy crawly.
      Time to call dates for another referendum.
      If slab voters still back the Ukok on this, they have no shame.
      Bankrupt Britain, just signed a blank cheque to America and the “land grabbers”, thanks for giving us more debt for another thousand years.

    132. David McDowell says:

      Ian Brotherhood at 12:41pm

      What the hell are all those uncouth Labour MPs doing CLAPPING in the House of Commons?!!
      The double standards from this shower of a-holes is unbelievable.

    133. Brian Powell says:

      From Twitter I’m getting the impression Natalie has withdrawn from the Whip. Just a vague impression.

    134. sensibledave says:

      Helena Brown 5.58

      You wrote “you know all you war mongers want to”

      … another comment beneath contempt Helena.

      Is there anything worth fighting for Helena? Is there any provacation that justifies a response. Is it warmongering to defend yourself by attacking your attackers?

      Forgive me if I don’t lose any sleep over you blanking me. I understand pacifism, I even respect it, but to accuse the likes of France of warmongering because they are attacking ISIL is beyond the pale.

      The United Nations has issued a mandate to take all measures to defeat ISIL – but you know better than the whole of the UN. Your arrogance is stunning.

    135. galamcennalath says:

      Derek Bateman discussing Freedom Come a’ Ye.

      Today is certainly a day to remind ourselves of the outstanding lyrics …

      http://www.educationscotland.gov.uk/scotlandssongs/secondary/thefreedomcomeallye.asp

      youtube.com/watch?v=efQEjZgeqZk

    136. ahundredthidiot says:

      Sensibledave

      You have me thinking now, why do you bother?

      We won’t convince you and you won’t convince us, so I am led to the conclusion (if you are not a paid employee of HM something or other) that you are terrified. You know our thinking has taken hold, you can see the UK failing its citizens from policy to austerity, that our movement is growing by the day.

      More frustrating is that we seem to be bullet proof to attacks by state media and that SNP representatives are doing a good job at both Holyrood and WM.

      That’s it sensibledave isn’t it?

      You are shitting yourself, because you are losing and we are winning.

    137. Bob Mack says:

      U N resolution ?

      Yes, but funnily enough not under Chapter 7 which authorises the DIRECT use of force.It is very specific.
      Wonder why that was? Making it up as they go along. Like you do sensibledave.

    138. Macart says:

      @Helena

      I suspect its not a case of what the SNP are willing or not willing to accept. If an individual feels that their presence may present a liability of any kind to the group’s progress and decides to remove themselves whilst their current situation continues, then I doubt there is much the party could do about it.

      The members aren’t robots and the party isn’t a dictatorship (though the press would have us believe otherwise). I agree though with your summation. That is exactly what the media and their chain tuggers are after. If they can’t break the group discipline they’ll whittle away at their numbers in any way they can.

      I have no idea whether there is anything to this current stooshie, but I suspect Ms McGarry is committed to this course of action. If cleared of any impropriety, no doubt will return to full membership.

      With substance or not though, each and every member will be poked, prodded, investigated, provoked and baited. You better believe it and they’ll go through it all because we asked them to.

    139. caz-m says:

      I have a feeling sensibledave is not such a stranger to this site. I think you will find he has a double identity on here.

      You will NEVER see sensibledave and ****…./// in the same room at the same time, BECAUSE IT’S THE SAME PERSON!!!

      Think about it. You are being taken for a ride.

    140. David McDowell says:

      The warmongerers don’t have a monopoly on information any more – they’re losing to the internet, they know it, and they’re terrified about it.

    141. gus1940 says:

      Watching Reporting SNPbad Jackie Turd and Flubber are in a vomit inducing rapturous orgasmic frenzy over this McGarry alleged scandal.

      As one would expect in addition they treated us to a reprise of the Alleged Michelle Thomson scandal in case we had forgotten about it.

      And we are forced by law to pay to have this propaganda excrement poured over us

    142. Ken500 says:

      The Tory low lives get into power and a year later they have the world in an uproar. They are dangerous psychopaths. Westminster criminals and their Unionists side kicks. Westminster Unionists are murderers, thugs and criminals.

      Start with Putin and you will know of it. If Russia cuts off Oil & Gas to Europe, Europe will starve,

    143. Steve Bowers says:

      1984 anybody, looks like George Orwell was right on the money ( if a little premature )

    144. ahundredthidiot says:

      We should be paying close attention to what Putin is saying if we want an idea about what’s coming next, he’s a reasonably straight shooter but won’t be baited.

      He is also pretty confident which tells me Iran is and possibly even China could be, on board.

      Turkey need to wake up and smell the coffee, the US is using it, just like it did Ukraine.

      I think there is an Eastern Alliance prepared to take on NATO.

    145. garles says:

      geeo says:
      24 November, 2015 at 2:31 pm

      I know this is a bit o/t.

      Ah Barrow in Furness where they build the subs oor jackies favorite town.

      Down in Suffolk now and news is on about bombing of Bristol.Things never change

    146. Robert Peffers says:

      @Scot Finlayson says: 24 November, 2015 at 1:07 pm:

      “I see the Anti Trident, Scotland`s one and only Labour MP Ian Murray has not even bothered to turn up to the Trident Renewal Debate at his place of work.”

      It is actually really comic. I’m just returned home from visiting my pal’s house. His wife, as per usual, was goggling the box and when the news came on. There was the report of the SNP led debate and the BBC reporter claiming, (as usual), that the SNP motion had been, “Overwhelmingly”, defeated.

      Which indeed, (as usual), it was. However the Westminster TV shots of the chamber showed, (as usual), that the green leather benches were mostly empty, (as usual), and also, (as usual), bore no resemblance to the numbers who passed through the voting lobbies.

      The Establishment truth, (as usual), is that the Rt. Honourable and Honourable Friends answered the call of the party whips and, (as usual), and without knowing how the debate had progressed, voted as the whips demanded, (as usual), before returning to the bars, cafes, restaurants, gyms and fly poker games throughout the best rich people’s club this side of the House of Lords.

    147. caz-m says:

      STV is becoming the Daily Record of our TV screens.

      We boycott the Record, in my opinion, a similar punishment should be handed out to STV. Their sponsors would love that.

      Let the word get out that STV is broadcasting the lies that the Daily Record prints.

      If you have to watch channel 3, then tune into ITV, NOT STV.
      And let STV know that you no longer watch their channel.

      Whether you watch STV or not, Sponsors hate bad publicity.

    148. heedtracker says:

      Watching Reporting SNPbad Jackie Turd and Flubber are in a vomit inducing rapturous orgasmic frenzy over this McGarry alleged scandal.

      Its good canvassing though. I watched with my fellow travels of the right, left, undecided, don’t care and said with fear, “holy fcuk the BBC really want the SNP out next year.”

      Im a bit of ham, so twas was more of sharp intake of breath kind of fear.

    149. Ken500 says:

      @ Craig Murray

      A recent comment posted on what Putin says, about the plane being shot down.

      ‘News Report’? STV had a goon ‘Reporter’ vacantly staring at the camera.

    150. ArtyHetty says:

      Re; David McDowell@6.43

      I am sure I read other day that in a ‘state of emergency’ they could shut down the internet. I could have imagined that in an awful nightmare of 1984 type.

      Just having gone out to the shops and seeing the daily lies in print, pretty much all having the N.McGarry story as front page news and so you really would not think we are close to be taken to war again. La li laa, what, we must have a good smear story getting in the way of actual information on what the bullingdon boys are really up to. Mind even though the National was hidden as usual, it looked to be selling well. :))

    151. Robert Peffers says:

      @sensibledave says: 24 November, 2015 at 1:44 pm:

      ” … Do tell.

      Why?

    152. geeo says:

      Talking of stv…
      Daisley honours year one of the National in his usual bilious style…

      http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/1333546-stephen-daisley-on-the-first-anniversary-of-the-national-newspaper/

    153. Gary45% says:

      gus1940@6.48.
      Get yourself a TV with on demand/ catch up/ internet on it.
      Set it to a radio channel when you turn it on, and then go into the catch up service.
      You are not watching live TV and can stick TWO FINGERS up to the BBC whilst watching their SH*TY programmes.
      And if they change the way the licence is funded, I will go to Jail rather than pay the FU*KERS.

      Ken500@6.49
      Our good old best friends and allies from across the pond are behind this.
      Start pissing President Putin off, in turn get him to cut off energy supplies to Europe, then watch the USA and the land thieves getting all the contracts for gas supplies “through fracking e.t.c”

      If this did happen, then “call me Dave” will have the perfect excuse for forced fracking in the UK.
      “OOO that bad Putin turned off the lights and you can’t watch our mind numbingly tedious programmes on the EBC”, so we will have to frack under your houses suckers.
      “Quick Giddy pass me the pig”.
      You couldn’t make this up.

    154. ronnie anderson says:

      Hello Fellow Wingers AND Goodnight Fellow Wingers or should I say the S/DAVE Political Topics site.

      No need of reply computer says NO.

    155. lenny hartley says:

      So what side is Turkey on? Oh the same as us, just as Russia starts doing what the west should have been doing months ago (Taking out ISIL’s Oil supplies going over the border to Turkey – then onto the Rotterdam spot market) they shoot down a Russian aircraft (and Turkish allies kill at least one of the two crew whilst they are parachuting down)

      Very smart move Turkey, how much money are you making out of selling ISIL oil on the black market? are you complicit in assisting the passage of most of Europe’s heroin from Afghanistan an estimated 50% of which is controlled by ISIL?

      Ignore the rhetoric from the MSM, ISIL is our partner in crime in an Illegal US lead adventure to further regime change in Syria, Its all part of the grand plan to control all of the oil in the middle east, and to do that you need to get Iran.

      The billion or barrels or oil recently found in Syrian land controlled by the Israelis is just the icing on the cake.

      The Russian are not daft, they will do what is required to stop the US in their imperialistic adventures . We are entering a very dangerous period in world history.

    156. sensibledave says:

      ahundredthidiot at 6:25 pm

      You wrote “We won’t convince you and you won’t convince us, so I am led to the conclusion (if you are not a paid employee of HM something or other) that you are terrified. You know our thinking has taken hold, you can see the UK failing its citizens from policy to austerity, that our movement is growing by the day.”

      This will be last comment today as, unusually, I have to stop before I write something I regret.

      The only thing I am terrified of is that deluded pacifists get anywhere near being responsible for the defence of our country and its people. Their “holier than thou” claims for the moral high ground whilst sheltering under the very protection of the same organisations and allies they condemn is, frankly, contemptible.

      Have the guts and come out and shout your policy from the hill tops. You hate the USA, you hate France, you hate the UK and you hate everything that NATO stands for – and have the guts to put that in a manifesto and ask the people to vote for it.

    157. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I applaud Natalie McGarry distancing herself from the other SNP MPs while the allegations of financial irregularity at WFI are investigated. Mind you, this will not stop the BUMS (thanks to whoever coined this acronym for the mainstream media this morning), from reminding everyone of the SNP connection.

      By the same token, the BUMS will not mention Dippity Dug’s wee local problem with the constituency finances, or the fact neither Action Krankie or Carmicahel stood down when they attracted the authorities with their alleged misdemeanours.

      How I wish the Nippy Sweetie had reminded the BBC about this when she spoke to them.

      Someone earlier had a go at Woodcock, the MP for Barrow-in-Furness and his contribution to the SNP’s Trident debate. Well, B-I-F is where the actual boats which carry the missiles are built, so, we can surely forgive him for standing-up for his constituents.

      Finally, I see Oliver Hardy’s evil twin sister was putting in her farthing’s worth on TV today, while, surprise, surprise, that well known anti-Trident MP, the Morningside Socialist was conspicuous by his absence from the Ayes lobby, when the House divided on the SNP’s anti-Trident motion.

      I am simply getting madder and madder at the 55% who kept us involved in this whole pantomime by the banks of the Thames.

    158. liz says:

      Aamer Anwar is lawyer to both MT and Natalie so hopefully he will be keeping the pressure on Police Scotland to release some kind of statement soon so we can move on.

      I agree about the problem with resigning the whip as the corporate media will keep digging to get rid of them one at a time.

      Think Nicola needs to have a strategy to halt this

    159. HandandShrimp says:

      It is the Daily Express though…the paper that makes the National Enquirer seem restrained and balanced.

    160. call me dave says:

      Herald latest: McGarry resigns SNP whip.

      https://archive.is/vnoLh

    161. geeo says:

      Wee e-mail to daisley after his diatribe…awaiting eagerly for a response..!

      Is there no limits to your hatred of independence, the SNP and the 50% of the Scottish electorate who overwhelmingly rejected unionist policies in the 2015 GE who you regularly disrespect ?

      Everything you write is an anti Scotland diatribe aimed at any vision of Scotland minus the (rejected) unionist direction. 

      An actual journalist would examine why, when the referendum returned a super slim 6% majority, (swing required to change the result) did the Scottish people return 56 SNP MP’s at a General Election just a few short months later ?

      You could also try asking why the now infamous “vow” was allowed to be produced with the obvious clear aim to ‘swing’ voters to a No vote after THAT poll putting Yes ahead in the last few days before the ballot ?

      Why was the ‘vow’ not roundly condemned by the media, yourself included, when clearly the offer of more powers was explicitly NOT ALLOWED on the referendum ballot paper ?

      It is clear to me that when the panic set in after THAT poll mentioned above, the tiny scraps of pretence at balanced media reporting left in the uk MSM was abandoned. 

      When will the media realise that their job is to report the news and let the reader/viewer decide, especially visual broadcast news programmes ?

      The clue is in the title….”News Report”, so report the news in a neutral manner and let the viewer make their own mind up rather than lead with heavily unbalanced reporting. 

      I will not hold my breath. 

      G. B. Falkirk. 

    162. Robert Peffers says:

      @ScottieDog says: 24 November, 2015 at 2:34 pm:

      “SNP are branded ‘robots’ now. Lol
      Better than establishment robots

      Laughable by the party of Robots who trailed from every corner of parliament into the lobbies to vote as instructed by their whips and, going by the empty chamber benches, didn’t have a clue as to what happened in the debate.

      It’s like turkeys Robots voting for Christmas the iron smelter.

    163. Angra Mainyu says:

      Caz, you’re correct. The way to hurt newspapers is to boycott those who sponsor and advertise therein. Advertising in papers is costly and relatively crap — if the advertisers thought for a second that by advertising in say the Daily Record they would lose sales rather than generate them, they’d bail out immediately.

      When you look at it like that, we have it within our collective grasp to shut a newspaper down. Without advertising they’re dead in the water; even a small decrease in advertising revenue would be devastating.

      Hypothetically speaking, it would only take a handful of people to generate momentum on Twitter and on other forums and within a week you’d see them hurting. the key thing would be to shout it loud and proud — “advertise in here and you’re boycotted!”

    164. thomaspotter2014. says:

      Not all doom and gloom so far.

      I’m noticing a sort of sea change in Establishment Media puppets experiencing glimpses of doubt when they’re pushing the party line against objections.

      The reporter on News at Ten last night was even questioning the latest Cameron shite.

      Totally unusual.

      Is it just me or is the spark of a little enlightenment starting to beam through the quagmire of disinformation darkness?

      Though we still got=

      Austeritied to the Max but in a blink of an eye we can now afford 138x F-35’s@ £250,000 each for the aircraftless aircraft carrier?

      £32 BILLION(Apparently they’re not even fit for purpose.)

      We can now have 2 aircraft carriers instead of just one @ £6 BILLION+

      10,000 soldiers on the streets of Rule Britannia!

      10,000 soldiers in a mobile strike force!

      5000 more spooks?

      £Millions more for SECURITY

      And there was me thinking we’re all supposed to be tightening oor belts tae.

      Dinny like Hameron Cameron but gie me some of what he’s on ffs

    165. heedtracker says:

      sensibledave says:
      24 November, 2015 at 7:17 pm
      ahundredthidiot at 6:25 pm

      Interesting how you cant even begin to approach terrorism and its reality sensibledave4? and predictably cowardly.

      More UK violence in the middle east, means more blood shed via more radicalised terrorists attacking civilians anywhere, or it doesn’t.

      You can’t cope with reality now and yet your red/blue toryboy goon show marches off to war again, from the back and with more giant UKOK Mission Accomplished banners flapping away, when it clearly wont be.

    166. Valerie says:

      Please keep your word, sensible, and make that pile of bile the last you post.

      PLEASE.

    167. scottieDog says:

      @sensibledave
      The question is on bombing Syria. .
      To what end?
      All you will achieve is a successful recruiting campaign for isis and lots of martyrs.
      Correct me if I’m wrong but surely if you are at war, the first thing you do is cut off the supply lines of your adversary? Why isn’t this the first thing being tabled? I’m pretty sure that would gain wide UN support.

    168. ben madigan says:

      talking about isis/isil or the daesh –
      here’s a warning for the ladies –
      to spread to all our friends and their daughters and any teenage girls we may be acquainted with in our neighbourhoods

      https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2015/11/23/la-reine-daesh-warning-the-ladies/

    169. Bob Mack says:

      @sensibledave.

      Christianity is based on the teachings of what you call a “Deluded Pacifist”.
      We are individuals ,not a political Party, so cannot put anything in a manifesto.You are getting confused. Have a lie down or play with your computer games which allow you to engage in bloodshed from the comfort of your chair.

    170. Robert Peffers says:

      @Bob Mack says: 24 November, 2015 at 2:06 pm:

      “You can kill the body ,the ideal is something else. It will flourish wherever it can.”

      Very profound, Bob Mack. Just having reviewed and re-researched the history of the Middle East the obvious truth is that ever since the Europeans colonised the entire area by force and began to treat all the various native factions as if they were a homogeneous solid mass there has been trouble in the Middle East.

      The truth is that the Middle East will continue to be a hot spot of trouble until the various religious factions get their own undisputed countries all to themselves.

      Just like the Israel/Palestine situation or the Irish Troubles or even the Celtic/Rangers sectarianism in the WOS, there will be ebbs and flows, but there will never be lasting reconciliation until most people are educated enough to realise there are no Gods, no paradise and no after life.

      When we die we are dead for keeps. Religion has killed and maimed more totally innocent people in this old World than any other thing including the Black Death.

    171. Dan Huil says:

      @ ben madigan 7:38pm

      Lovely ladies in county Limerick. I won’t hear it otherwise, no I won’t.

    172. David McDowell says:

      “Now we face Jihadi missle attack…and it has nothing whatsover to do with the £12 billion of extra defence spending we announced yesterday.

      “And yes, we do think you are too stupid to see this as exploiting public fear that we have manufactured.”

      “Oh, and by the way, the price of Trident renewal has risen by £6 billion to £31 billion. Just thought this would be a good time to break the bad news.”

    173. Gary45% says:

      Man this is getting quite scary.
      The way the world is going according to the “establishment”,
      Should Santa bring me my new space hopper before 25/12/2015?

      Sensible Dave,
      Having an opinion contrary to yours does not mean “hatred”
      Its called an o pin i on.
      You will find most people on here have broken free from the matrix, maybe its time you did also.

    174. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Posted this earlier but it didn’t show;

      It’s the full YT footage of Robin Cook’s resignation speech.

      Cook was no saint, but he called this one right. It’s quite moving to watch this recalling the atmosphere at the time. All that we feared and warned about came true, but none of us imagined it would be quite as bad.

      And now they’re just going ahead without any fiddly palaver over UN resolutions? And we’ve got these bastard Tories in charge for at least another decade?

      Thanks a bunch Nawbags and Red Tories. Good fucking job.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0f8NBlmwwE

    175. David McDowell says:

      Regarding the McGarry story: are the BritNat media going to accuse all 56 SNP MPs of fraud one at a time until there are none left?
      Why must we accept the unproven accusations of the BritNat media time after time?
      At what point will there be some actual evidence of wrongdoing in all this?
      Sooner or later someone is going to have to sue and put a stop to these obvious political witch-hunts.

    176. Iain More says:

      It seems nothing changes

      2 Kings 7:6 For the Lord had made the host of the Syrians to hear a noise of chariots, and a noise of horses, even the noise of a great host: and they said one to another, Lo, the king of Israel hath hired against us the kings of the Hittites, and the kings of the Egyptians, to come upon us.

      I am sure the SNP was bad in those days as well!!! I am just waiting for the Brit Nat Press and Media trolling the bible for anything that they can use against those of us that would deny the promised land to our Tory Lords and Masters.

    177. Patrick Roden says:

      It’s funny reading wings and reading all the commenters who talk about the ‘gullible’ voters who believe the crap printed by the daily Record or the BBC…

      As they respond like gullible fools themselves to thread spoilers like sensibledabe etc.

      I despair…

    178. james barr gardner says:

      We can expect the Torries to plumb to even lower depths when it comes to dealing with Scotland and the Scottish People, they have just started there is much more to come, remember it’s in their nature, they see us as a minor colony to deal with as they see fit.

      The 45 have always known this, hopefully more and more of the NO voting Scots will come know it too and see the sense that it all makes and vote Yes in the future, and support Scotland and all of the Scottish People.

      Still it could really get really nasty, do not be surprised at the levels that their petty and vindictiveness can sink to, torries elite are used to seeing themselves as World Masters and definitely annoyed at lower orders kicking back at them.

      When the Portuguese (First world country) left Angola (Third World Country) in 1975 they destroyed the plumbing and sewage system by pouring cement down pipes and removing doors and hinges from buildings, all in a bid to cripple the African people. They even took away all the maps to do with the services back to Portugal.

      Vote SNP x 2 We will have our country back, the Unionists can take their nuclear submarines and missiles back to Ye Olde Engerland and get on with their farce. We will get on with creating a more even and fair Scottish society.

      Scotland Enough is Enough! Let’s do it! Vote for an Independent Scotland. Devolution is just the Westminster Elite kicking Our Hopes and Dreams into the long grass.

    179. schrodingers cat says:

      snp will vote against any tory proposal to bomb Syria without a un resolution

      if there is no un resolution, any action will be a waste of time and end in disaster.

      if there is a un resolution, a meaningful one, the snp may support uk participation

    180. Foonurt says:

      sensibledave – yurr needin tae calm doon, urr ye wull huv ah seizure.

      Wurr talkin politeeshins here, um shair thull soartit oot. Mine yeh, thoan Bush erse waantit tae bomb thum tae yoan Stone Age.

      Mibbae betturr gaun fur, bombing back tae thoan Big Bang. Then stertin agane.

    181. schrodingers cat says:

      initial comments from usa not promising for a un resolution

    182. ArtyHetty says:

      Patrick@8.09

      Yes I agree we have to completely ignore those attempting to steer debate in their direction and whose aim is to stifle any intelligent conversation on here. It can be very annoying but I just bypass anything these commenters say now. They are also not actual individuals and are most likely the actual security/ukokgov services.

      Ignore them.

    183. Bob Mack says:

      @Patrick Rodden,

      Sorry,but it amuses me to reply to dippy dave.
      He is teetering on the verge now.

    184. Capella says:

      @ ArtyHetty @ Patrick
      I agree. It’s also tedious having to scroll past all the responses to the idiots.

      I watched some of the Trident debate until it became too cringeworthy listening to the warmongers purple prose.
      But it was heartening to see Natalie McGarry sitting on the front bench with her SNP colleagues. I do hope a defamation action results in the near future. That would curb the smears.

    185. De Valera says:

      Sensibledaves away to watch his Jim Davidson DVDs to calm down.

      Just like Carry on up the Khyber, he’s keeping the British end up!

    186. Ian Brotherhood says:

      For those too young to remember what the build-up to the Iraq invasion felt like, it’s very difficult to get footage of the UN sessions at that time, especially relating to resolution 1441.

      A lot of us remember Colin Powell’s disgraceful, embarrassing performance when he frightened the life out of delegates with a phial of talcum powder as the thuggish John Negroponte and his other henchman scowled on from behind.

      This link goes to the UN’s official record of that day, and includes what oor very ain Jack Straw had to say about it all. (Dominique de Villepin sounded caution, but it was all a bit futile by then.)

      Yeah, it’s hard looking back on this, to believe that these crooks pulled it off. It’s a valuable record all the same. (The site may have footage, but I haven’t had a good look.)

      UN Security Council Briefing by Colin Powell, Feb 5th 2003 –
      http://www.un.org/press/en/2003/sc7658.doc.htm

    187. Brian Powell says:

      Interesting, Nigel Lawson on TV saying historic child abuse cases, involving politicians etc, should be dumped. Little coverage.

      WFI investigation, every paper running it.

    188. andy smith says:

      How about we crowd-fund some weapons for sensible Dave so that he can lead the assault on daesh !:-)

    189. Andrew McLean says:

      ArtyHetty
      Done,
      Always amazed at armchair generals who believe war war is better than jaw jaw, and how many armchair generals who have never served the country they profess to love, always someonelse to fight for them always someone else’s son!
      Before we make another mistake another ! And another all we are saying is think, stop and think. Get UN backing as a priority, fools rush in, and we see who we are supporting? Tell me who is IS ok some are easy to spot, but some are IS but by another name, who we use to serve our purpose, and we think we are moral? , Syria is a disaster in the making, let’s get this one right.
      France will always have our support, but you if you are a true friend you have to comfort and guide when good sence is lost in grief.
      As for Russia, it’s massing its army inside the Syrian state, always watch Russia from the side, they never do what you think they will do.
      As for one who comments on here.
      Cowards that did it for me! Fucker couldn’t lace my combat boots!

    190. Dr Jim says:

      Terrorists are ready and prepared to invade Scotland
      and we know this because the Police Federation Union man came on National Telly to tell them they, (The Police) couldn’t do a damn thing about it

      Now if there really is, or was a risk to Scotland, isn’t this Nitwit inviting them to do just that very thing thereby making him the most incompetent Police Officer on the planet and possibly in breech of the peace for practically inciting to riot or worse

      Whatever his motives, which I suspect are just a blackmail tactic for more of the Scottish budget to be chucked at the Polis, his conduct has been appalling and he should be dragged kicking and screaming in front of his superior officers and ripped a new one for being so irresponsible as to play with “Journalists” who only have one motive and it’s not the betterment of Scotland

      However now that the silly Polis man has opened his fat stupid mouth, I’ll just away down to Pacific Quay the now and Blow up The BBC, Aye and mibbees STV as well, they’re gettin aboot as bad

      Well, let’s face it, he practically said it was OK, I’d get away wae it

    191. john king says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      “And will anyone do anything to try and stop it, or even make a sincere stand against it?

      Have swatch at this – who’s that behind Robin Cook?:”

      Jings clapping how the fuck did they get away with that and no get called uncivilised heathens?

      Corbyn doesn’t look a year younger in that clip
      Dorian Grey mibbies?

    192. Alba46 says:

      O/T See that the English health service is getting more billions pumped into it. We will get our share (crumbs) from the masters table via the barnett consequentials.

      Wouldn’t it be great if we needed vast amounts of money for our Health Service, Police etc we could just go to westminster and take what we needed.

      This is why we need independence and get away from these self serving bunch of inbreds

    193. john king says:

      Macart says
      “Deja Vu all over again.”

      I…almost..cut my hair
      It happened …just the other day
      BUT…I…DIDNT!
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Lk2KHajp4Y

    194. Ian Brotherhood says:

      This is the Newsnight Special with Paxman and Blair, broadcast the night after Colin Powell’s antics at the UN.

      Feels like it was just a few years ago, but look at the state of Blair now compared to the young ‘un performing here.

      This is the interview where Paxman asked him if he and Bush prayed together – his reaction speaks volumes about how utterly phoney the man is. (It’s at 45.30-ish)

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7diGPVOWtI

    195. john king says:

      Bob Mack
      “Sorry,but it amuses me to reply to dippy dave.
      He is teetering on the verge now.”

      What do you do for an encore?

      Pull the legs of a daddy long legs?

      kin Aa get a shoat?

    196. JGedd says:

      …..And so sensibledave, the laptop warrior, departs, frothing and fulminating over his keyboard. Please let him depart this site for ever in peace and silence, never to return.

    197. Kenny says:

      All this sabre-rattling suggests to me that the US really does plan to raise interest rates next month and seems happy to have a war going with Russia in order to “explain” the subsequent market turmoil (or maybe some people are just long oil).

      Was ISIS used in Project Fear, I can’t remember? Still, always good for #indyref2. Along with such other threats, such as RBS and BofS will move south (with all their debts), Putin will invade the Western Isles, the wind will stop blowing and JK Rowling will stop writing books if Scots dare to vote for self-governance…

    198. john king says:

      JGedd@9.09

      Ok you have two choices
      Sensibledave or Norse Warrior
      you have 30 seconds starting …NOW

    199. Haven’t read all comments as far too many responding to that numpty SD..

      RE the Russian jet shot down over a brief incursion over Turkey airspace of 17secs it appears they also killed the pits in mid air which is a war crime in anyone’s language.

      https://twitter.com/Conflicts/status/669166140766199808

    200. john king says:

      Kenny
      “Was ISIS used in Project Fear,”

      Isis?
      Isis was only a gleam in the CIA’s eye then. 😉

    201. ronnie anderson says:

      Lords debate on Scotland Bill LIVE NOW, better watching that than engadging Trolls.

    202. Ian Brotherhood says:

      The ‘swedger’ fundraiser has £4381, and 11 hours left…

      https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/fine-time#/

    203. @john king says:

      Kenny
      “Was ISIS used in Project Fear,”

      Isis?
      Isis was only a gleam in the CIA’s eye then. 😉

      Plus our MI6.

    204. Onwards says:

      geeo says:
      24 November, 2015 at 7:20 pm

      Wee e-mail to daisley after his diatribe…awaiting eagerly for a response..!

      Is there no limits to your hatred of independence, the SNP and the 50% of the Scottish electorate who overwhelmingly rejected unionist policies in the 2015 GE who you regularly disrespect ?

      Everything you write is an anti Scotland diatribe aimed at any vision of Scotland minus the (rejected) unionist direction.
      —-

      I read the ScotGoesPop article on Daisley previously, and took a look at his twitter feed at the time. His #1 interest is Israel and zionism, and everything is framed through that lens, especially his obvious hatred of Corbyn.

      http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2015/08/stephen-daisley-and-israel.html

      http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2015/08/daisley-neocon-link-list-and-1967.html

      He writes some good articles for the STV site, and no doubt has to make the appearance at being balanced.
      But the anti-Scottish stuff, although covered up with humour, shows a severe case of the cringe.

      It’s quite ironic because his beloved Israel is probably the most nationalist country in the world. And not the ‘good’ type of nationalism.

    205. Gary45% says:

      Regarding Dave the sensible and the UKok.
      Its only the UK that can produce Bad/Sore Winners.
      Ref. last years Indy result.

    206. Tam Jardine says:

      Socrates MacSporran

      I watched the debate on the trident subs- the Barrow and Furness MP Woodcock you refer to was the low-point in the entire debate.

      Seek out his speech- but do not watch it if you suffer from high blood pressure. You will find yourself wanting to put your fist through your computer screen.

      Woodcock would do well to lay off the derogatory nonesense about the SNP and aim his fire at his labour colleagues who could not be arsed attending their place of work and discussing an issue he purports to feel very strongly about.

      I watched the last trident debate as well as this one- some useful contributions and interesting perspectives from both sides. The level of debate is fairly poor, and that includes from my own party in some cases.

      The heckling of the opening speech was unbelievable- sustained gibberish, background noise and interruptions. Woodcock should have been admonished by the speaker for unparliamentary behaviour and derogatory language and instead the deputy speaker gave Woodcock a green light. She’s pretty hopeless- Bercow is better.

      In terms of the actual discussion, the points made generally go over the same ground, and cover a very narrow range of arguements. Subsequently there were very few blows landed.

      For example- one of the big arguments against trident, sited again and again is the risk posed by accidental detonation or terrorist attack: the potential loss of life, destruction of the Scottish economy etc is a big deal. Unless I missed it this angle was barely mentioned by the SNP.

      Similarly the ‘trident sustains loads of jobs’ argument was elevated to ridiculous significance with no-one from the SNP going to town on how inefficient a way of creating jobs the weapons system is.

      The occasional discussions and debates from articles on Wings I have followed over the last 2 years have contained far more informed posters and comments and in general I think the level of discussion here exceeds the commons by no small margin.

    207. john king says:

      Ian Brotherhood@ 9.32

      Maybe Gideon should ask the Rev to help him with the deficit
      He could crowd fund it in a couple of days. 🙂

    208. Grouse Beater says:

      Soon as I see Dippy Dave is back I leave.

      Those interested in my contribution to this debate can find it here:

      http://wp.me/p4fd9j-2xB

      … my best informed thoughts on ISIS and downed planes:

    209. Cadogan Enright says:

      Turkey buys ISIS oil.

      Turkey gives ISIS safe haven

      Turkey attacks Kurdish forces fighting ISIL. (Britain tells Turkey where to find them)

      Turkey/Britain arming militants

      Turkey says IT gave Russian jet 10 warnings over 5 minutes to leave its airspace but it’s own radar can only show 17 seconds

      Cameron spends all week on BBC news telling us how he wants to fight ISIS

      BBC reports last point only

    210. Grouse Beater says:

      Almost two years since I began my ‘hidden’ essay blog and here I am writing about another catastrophe created by western democracy, and not about my country’s democracy renewed.

      How sad.

    211. Tam Jardine says:

      One last question for anyone who knows such things: why on earth was Jeremy Corbyn not present for the opposition day motion today? He is against trident, he has a task on his hands to convince his MPs and the rest of the house to adopt his view, weaken his opponents arguments and challenge the government’s position.

      Maybe he had a funeral or something? I just don’t get it- a vital issue for labour to debate: it is not something you can sit on the fence on- you either support building these new subs or you don’t. He is paid by the electorate, he has strongly held views on trident: what on earth would compel him not to take part? Because its an SNP “stunt”? That attitude, should that be the position of Jeremy, is frankly insulting to the Scottish people. The SNP represent us- we are the ones who will judge whether they are raising important points or performing political stunts.

      I just don’t get it at all- I would have liked to hear his contribution and it might actually have been useful.

    212. heedtracker says:

      BBC reports last point only

      How much dosh do the toryboy gods of war take from other big hitters?

      or

      Who funds jihad?
      https://www.politicshome.com/foreign-and-defence/articles/story/paddy-ashdown-suggests-tory-arab-ties-undermining-efforts-combat

      Speaking to Radio 4’s Today programme, he raised concerns about links between the Conservative party and wealthy Arabs that could be preventing greater investigation and pressure.

      Its a toryboy world.

      Meanwhile Scots region hackdom goes berserk at an allegation.

    213. HandandShrimp says:

      With the whole ME thing in turmoil and Gideon about to slash budgets and purloin overseas aid money to plug defence, I think the domestic press hit a massive timimg fail launching their latest SNPbad offensive.

      Much talk of WW3 in the office today and one or two about the Autumn review but not a toot about McGarry. I confess I have only read one of the McGarry articles myself.

      At the moment Erdogan playing chicken with Putin is far more concerning and troubling.

    214. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I’m just waiting for my MP, Chris West, to become the next target, because he had the temerity to be running his own business, while he was campaigning for independence.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AimKUHX2TtM

    215. Macart says:

      @John King 9.04

      Jings that takes me back. 😀

    216. Ian Brotherhood says:

      A wee reminder of the bullshit we were being subjected to post 9/11.

      The guys who designed ‘Thunderbirds’ put more thought into their models.

      ‘Bin Laden’s Mountain Fortress’ –

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSkk0Qa6CG0

    217. call me dave says:

      HOL debate on Scotland going to full committee. How polite they all are LOL but they do stick to the business in hand and it is interesting. A good listen.

      Nice to see the well ken faces anxiously trying to find ways of keeping their foot on our throat but in a nice way of course.

      Not a scary Scots Nat to be seen or heard! 🙂

    218. Can anyone explain what benefits NI get out of the new Northern Ireland (Welfare Reform)bill and is this devolution that us The Most Devolved Country In The History of Anything have not got.

    219. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Make of this what you will, but at least keep it in mind in the days and weeks to come.

      Alleged CNN Fake Broadcast from ‘Saudi Arabia’ (1990) –

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTWY14eyMFg

    220. Petra says:

      ”Deluded pacifists”? How on earth did you come to that conclusion? ”No one has proffered any credible suggestions as to how to deal with Daesh” or words to that effect. Well we have over and over again on this site. Do you just hop, skip and jump through posts?

      What you clearly have to do is ask yourself why and how these barbarians have come together. Although the situation is historical, extremely convoluted, and many factions have their own axe to grind, they have united in the main because they are totally incensed about the death and destruction of their people and countries by NATO, the US and the UK. That’s the why. How they’ve managed to unite in such a way relates to the vacuum that was left by the US and UK when they decimated Iraq. This is a very simplistic explanation but do you get the picture? Can you see who has created the situation? Who has created the monster?

      What to do now? We can see that bombing is not the answer. The reason we can see that, and surely you can see it, is because the US (et al) has been bombing day and daily for over a year now and if anything the situation has worsened. Daesh is still there, growing arms and legs, and Europe is overrun with fleeing refugees. The US has been so ineffective, dragged this on for so long, with motives questionable of course, that Russia has now joined the fray. Military experts agree that bombing alone will not will decimate Daesh. The only way to do that is to get boots on the ground. ‘Boots’ right now relates to the Kurds. Where are the Saudis et al? Others point out that they should be starved of their finances (difficult one as some of their financiers purport to be anti-Daesh), hackers should shut down their sites and everyone should get into discussion with Assad. In other words a united military, political and diplomatic approach. Makes sense but it’s not happening. Why not? Because the US has been more focused on getting rid of Assad than Daesh. Putin has now called check mate and the US will have, has had, to return to the drawing board.

      And if this seems to work in that the Iraqi and Syrian Governments are once again in control of their countries we will still face massive problems because many (Daesh) will have dispersed plotting to regroup and / or cause havoc Worldwide and one wave after another of thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands or millions) of hate filled youngsters will continue to hold a Daesh ideology. In reality Daesh will never die now. We will never rid ourselves of them. Our only, slimmest, hope now lies with spending trillions on rebuilding the countries, their countries, that we have destroyed. The same trillions that are being spent on every kind of weapon imaginable which have been used, continue to be used, to blow the Middle East to smithereens. The same weapons that may end up ‘blowing’ us all away. This planet is controlled now by a cabal of psychopathic maniacs, politicians, arms dealers and bankers, whose main aim was to make mega-bucks. It’s back-firing on them now and unless they have a home on the moon they may find that there will ultimately be no hiding place for them.

    221. Fred says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood, this hillwalking is a dangerous business!!!

      @ Dr Jim, the vacuum at the top of Police Scotland has been filled by one Calum Steel, the Police Federation heid puddock, his latest diatribe on terrorist attacks is a disgrace, would that he be as forthcoming on the scandalous murder of Sheku Bayoh or the Stirling car smash fiasco.

    222. Andrew McLean says:

      Dr Jim 8:48

      Yes I have heard the rumblings of police Scotland, re arming against terrorists, problem is the issue of side arms, more of a risk to any police officer who is stupid enough to go head to head with a military trained jihadist carrying a fully automatic assault weapon. The only result is a dead cop. It’s not just the lack of suppressing firepower it’s the training and experience to facedown an advancing force and control it. That requires the police to behave like the army and set out to kill your opponent hesitate and your dead.

      Is that what we want from our police?

    223. Ken500 says:

      NI Is totally subsidised. The most subsidised in the UK. ( Google or whatever).. That’s why the Unionists hang on.The troubles left their economy in a bad way. There are still divisions. Sectarianism.

    224. heedtracker says:

      http://blogs.new.spectator.co.uk/2015/11/the-snps-new-politics-seems-to-be-rather-like-the-old-politics-it-despises/

      Thank adblock but hard line right in Scotland pretends hard line right media are NOT the only SNP opposition. Its really just to cheer up sensibledave though.

      SNP could still win next May-

      “Hence, then, the need to persuade people that the SNP are no better than anyone else and just as prone to misadventure, stupidity and even, perhaps, the occasional piece of creative accounting. Mud, as everyone knows, has a habit of sticking and so the opposition’s first task in Scotland, these days, is to strip away the SNP’s Teflon coating.”

      There you go sensibledave. UKOK red tory rule will be restored to your Scotland region very soon:D

    225. Ken500 says:

      NI to have 12.5% a corporation tax. 20% in the rest of the rest of the UK.

      Tax on Scottish Oil sector 75%. Thousands are losing their jobs. The Tories are ruining the Scottish economy.

      NI wanted to stay with the UK. The Partition 1922 IR did much better economcally. ‘The Celtic Tiger’ increased growth etc.

    226. Rock says:

      Are those who respond to sensibledave themselves trolls in disguise?

      Or simply gullible idiots who keep The Herald in circulation by buying its main funder The National which milks them by pretending to be pro independent?

      We are too stupid to be independent any time soon.

      They are laughing at us.

    227. Thepnr says:

      1991 The first gulf war, “Operation Desert Storm”.
      2001 Afghanistan war, “Operation Enduring Freedom”
      2003 The second gulf war, “Operation Iraqi Freedom”.
      2015 …

      The creation of ISIL and Al-Qaeda was as a direct result of the West’s involvement and the instability that resulted in these countries while we were there and continued after we got out.

      Many more people have died as a result of the instability than of the conflicts themselves. Combatant deaths are minuscule when compared with civilian deaths. The opposite of course was true in the two world wars.

      Though, some think it’s a good idea to try one more time?

      “Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”

      Albert Einstein

    228. heedtracker says:

      Or simply gullible idiots who keep The Herald in circulation by buying its main funder The National which milks them by pretending to be pro independent?

      WoS is a blog centered on Scottish politics and the media.

      If you want to do a blog about politics and no media, go do one Rock.

      Wings Over Scotland is a (mainly) Scottish political media digest and monitor, which also offers its own commentary.

    229. Phronesis says:

      Ars bene dicendi-who is speaking well?

      The Call to Arms…

      ‘the outcome of this issue will now determine more than the fate of the Iraqi regime and more than the future of the Iraqi people, for so long brutalised by Saddam. It will determine the way Britain and the world confront the central security threat of the 21st century; the development of the UN; the relationship between Europe and the US; the relations within the EU and the way the US engages with the rest of the world. It will determine the pattern of international politics for the next generation’

      (Blair, HoC,18 March 2003)http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200203/cmhansrd/vo030318/debtext/30318-06.htm

      ‘…Americans were originally persuaded by the President to go to war in part because of the threat of weapons of mass destruction, and in part because they were told that it would help reduce the threat of international terrorism.

      Neither turned out to be true. And now, after three long years of watching the same back and forth in Washington, the American people have sent a clear message that the days of using the war on terror as a political football are over. That policy-by-slogan will no longer pass as an acceptable form of debate in this country. “Mission Accomplished,” “cut and run,” “stay the course” ? the American people have determined that all these phrases have become meaningless in the face of a conflict that grows more deadly and chaotic with each passing day ? a conflict that has only increased the terrorist threat it was supposed to help contain.

      2,867 Americans have now died in this war. Thousands more have suffered wounds that will last a lifetime. Iraq is descending into chaos based on ethnic divisions that were around long before American troops arrived. The conflict has left us distracted from containing the world’s growing threats ? in North Korea, in Iran, and in Afghanistan. And a report by our own intelligence agencies has concluded that al Qaeda is successfully using the war in Iraq to recruit a new generation of terrorists for its war on America.

      These are serious times for our country, and with their votes two weeks ago, Americans demanded a feasible strategy with defined goals in Iraq a strategy no longer driven by ideology and politics, but one that is based on a realistic assessment of the sobering facts on the ground and our interests in the region.

      This kind of realism has been missing since the very conception of this war, and it is what led me to publicly oppose it in 2002. The notion that Iraq would quickly and easily become a bulwark of flourishing democracy in the Middle East was not a plan for victory, but an ideological fantasy.’

      (Obama, November 20 2006)
      http://obamaspeeches.com/094-A-Way-Forward-in-Iraq-Obama-Speech.htm

      ‘Securocratic pacification has become increasingly evident among core states…as the ruling classes impose neoliberal regimes of austerity and declining social services over the middle and working classes. In order to counter growing employment insecurity and to deflect attention from the effects of underemployment extending into the middle class…the ruling classes have focused public attention on security threats…packaged in as ‘consensual’ a form as possible, in keeping with the ethos of core-state democracy'(Halper ‘war against the people’ 2015).

    230. lenny hartley says:

      RE creation of ISIL , it was reported a while back probably about 2004/2005 in the Observer that Syrian Intelligence was saying that they had a few Iraqi’s seek asylum, they had been working for the USA and were tasked to drive a car to a Marketplace or other busy area with civilians and monitor what was going down, once in position they were to phone on the supplied mobile a number to confirm they were in position. The guys who had fled to Syria had not been able to get a mobile signal, so went to the nearest phone box and dialled the number. BOOM! their car exploded killing and maiming scores if not hundreds.

      Typical black ops designed to Divide and Conquer, setting Sunni against Shia. I reckon ISIL is a direct result of those black ops.

    231. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Rock (10.46) –

      If memory serves, this is the third time I’ve asked you directly, when I know for sure that you’re around – would you rather the National didn’t exist?

    232. r baxter says:

      there will never be democracy at Westminster as long as people elect narssistic unionist bastards.

    233. Gary45% says:

      Just picked myself up from the floor laughing at Odd Jobs,” McGarry/Carbuncle” comment, on Rep misery@6.30 on the EBC.
      Wiggy doing her usual sneer.
      The good news is, the way the dominoes are stacking up for the establishment, we are going to have a right good laugh at next years Scottish elections, when they come tumbling down round about them.
      Any trolls on this site ,
      IS THAT THE BEST YOU LOT CAN DO?
      Do not waste my time.

    234. Lenny Hartley says:

      heedtracker, Arithmetic may not be my strongest suite, however tell me how the National 13000 copies per day at 50p , £6.500 sales is the main funder for the Herald which sells 37,000 copies per day at £1.30 each day = £48,000 ?

      Presumably the Herald earns more on advertising due to its increased circulation and will have bigger overheads but I will continue to read the National and I am certainly not a gullible idiot.

    235. Thepnr says:

      Libya is almost identical to the situation in Syria in that it was undergoing a civil war. The West poked there nose in in order to rid Libya of Ghadaffi, it took sides and Ghadaffi lost.

      But who won?

      Not the people of Libya, it has been undergoing a second civil war since 2014 and it still goes on.

      What have the West got to offer the Syrians? Other than further misery. We need to face the facts.

      Those career politicians, especially those with an elitist background that we elect to make decisions on behalf of us all are basically selfish, mainly consumed by self interest or of supporting their financial backers.

      I believe most of them to be immoral. They’d “grind your bones to make their bread” and not bat an eyelid.

      Seriously, would anyone want Donald Trump as leader of the US?

      Yes they would!

    236. lenny hartley says:

      Sorry Heedtracker that last comment of mine at 11:18 is meant for Rock.

    237. Fireproofjim says:

      Rock@10.46
      You are getting really boring with your ill-informed obsession with calling the 17,000 Yes supporters who buy the National “gullible idiots”. You are also insulting but probably too dumb to know any better.
      You are probably one of the people who moaned about having no Independence supporting newspaper before the referendum, and now, when we have a good one with a circulation approaching that of the Scotsman, you moan even louder.
      It must be really sad to be you, who cannot see the advantage of a yes paper on the newsstands.
      Despite your moans you never put forward any suggestions about how we can better get our message across. Just “let’s destroy a yes supporting asset,” for no apparent reason.
      People who insult their fellows like this don’t deserve to be part of our great and exciting movement.

    238. lenny Hartley says:

      re my earlier post, re National circulation, looks like I got figure wrong, somebody mentioned to me today that it was 13k however even at 17k its still only £8.5k per day.

      We need more “gullible idiots” folks, we gotta support it.

    239. Dr Jim says:

      @Andrew Mclean

      That’s the thing really isn’t it, you can teach a cop to be a marksman but you can’t teach a cop to kill people, it’s a different job for a different kind of individual

      Our Scottish cops are mostly normal people doing a job, they’re not, and can’t be trained to be what you need for this type of work, you have to bring these people in and I’m not talking about soldiers because most normal soldiers couldn’t do it either

      The French and other Nations have the required squads of, for want of a better phrase “Mental Cases” because that’s what you need, cold hard unpleasant dirty job guys

      Although to qualify all that, Scotland hasn’t up till now been of much interest to the bad guys, even though we’d be a pretty soft target, no, the Indiscriminate murdering types have generally contented themselves with the country they despise the most which is England because to them that’s what represents the UK, whereas although I’m not personally acquainted with your unfriendly neighbourhood Terrorist, we have been lucky enough up till now to lack appeal for them thank goodness

      I think for Scotland it’s a difficult question because we haven’t in the past had to think much about this stuff because in the main for all our reputation we’re a pretty peaceful bunch

      I’m probably in the category of those who could do the job but unfortunately too old now to actually do it, unless it was from a good distance, can’t do the running and jumping anymore so more of a liability than an asset

      I don’t envy our Gov with this job

      Listen to me eh Great Grandpa Bond

    240. Cadogan Enright says:

      Rock

      If not sure if u are a unionist troll, but your anti National Newspaper reader sentiments sure as hell sound like it

      Keep buying the National folks, and enjoy the records decline http://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/recordsnp.jpg

    241. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Rock –

      You’re building up a wee backlog of questions here…

      While we’re waiting for you to formulate answers, why don’t you exercise your analytical skills on these examples of blatant MSM propaganda? Could you please share your expertise with us and tell us which are real, and which to ignore?

      Cheers! 🙂

      ‘SCRIPT – Top 10 Staged Media Events’ –

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHDDQVZ-A98

    242. Capella says:

      @ Tam Jardine 9:42 pm
      I watched the debate on the trident subs- the Barrow and Furness MP Woodcock you refer to was the low-point in the entire debate.

      Yes. And the woman from Sheffield (Labour) who told the SNP that this was a UK debate and you’re not in it, so shut up.

    243. lenny hartley says:

      post I posted earlier has disappeared, basically apologising to Heedtracker and asking Rock where he gets his nonsense from.

    244. schrodingers cat says:

      I get a copy of the national delivered every day, I also subscribe on line

      I think the problem that the yessers have is the deluge of snpbad in the rest of the msm, even valid critisisms of yes/snp are seen as jumping onto what is definitely a very uneven band wagon

      a strange and fairly unique state of affairs, probably unhealthy, but we are in a very “drole de guerre” situation at the moment. scotlands future will be decided in the next 2-3 years one way or the other

      keep the faith folks, we are winning at the moment. don’t snatch defeat from the jaws of victory

      wrt Syria, snp position is consistent, logical and supportable. no one can fore see if it will be the right option, only time will tell. here’s hoping

    245. Thepnr says:

      Here’s a question that hopefully someone may expand on.

      Since time immemorial how many Islamic terrorist attacks have taken place in the UK?

      I know we had 7/7 10 years ago and the failed Glasgow airport attack 8 years ago. Any others involving bombs or suicide bombers?

      How many attacks on Western soil in total?

    246. Fireproofjim says:

      Rock @10.46.
      For your further education, here are a list of contributors to the National, who you would no doubt describe as “gullible idiots”.
      Nicola Sturgeon, Alex Salmond. Pat Kane, Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh,Mhairi Black, Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp, Leslie Riddoch, Patrick Harvie, Paul Kavanagh, George Kerevan, and that is just a partial list for the past week.
      I wonder if you have heard of any of them.

    247. ben madigan says:

      O/T folks but I thought you would like to hear that the orange order in NI has offered to take trident off Scotland’s hands!!
      https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2015/11/24/orange-order-rescues-scotland-from-trident/

    248. Kat says:

      @Almannysbunnet
      “To make sure we and the world get the correct message the government has just announced that it is investing £85 million a year on the BBC world service…”

      Ever heard of a little thing called Operation Mockingbird?

    249. Rock says:

      Ian Brotherhood,

      “If memory serves, this is the third time I’ve asked you directly, when I know for sure that you’re around – would you rather the National didn’t exist?”

      I would rather that The Herald didn’t exist.

      Instead, The Herald has been given a lifeline by the gullible idiots that respond to sensibledave.

      If only 17,000 Yes supporters buy the National, it shows that hardly any No supporter does.

      It is unionist owned and milking the gullible converted, in the safe knowledge that it is not doing any harm to the
      unionists.

      But I won’t waste your time too much as you are all quite busy debating with sensibledave.

      We are too stupid to be independent any time soon.

      They are laughing at us.

    250. Petra says:

      This Government, Dictatorship, has been formulating their Big Brother plans for years now. Gagging Act, surveillance / snoopers charter, fiscal military state, proposed repeal of the Human Rights Act, vilification and scapegoating of immigrants, hand picked individuals holding key positions in the Military, MI5, MI6 and the Media with the latter using scaremongering, propaganda techniques to scare the life out of people into accepting the Tory agenda.

      Now we hear that although this country seemingly has some massive, terrorist threat hovering over it, and it probably has … even more so now with their proposed actions, and there is magically loads of dough slopping around now there will be no additional monies afforded to the UK Police Force. Strange, eh! Cameron has stated that the 10,000 additional troops he proposes to recruit can / will be used to patrol our streets to protect us. No doubt Scottish troops in England and vice versa. Scary or what? Even scarier when you consider that the SNP and its supporters are considered to be a threat to the State. A study of the rise of Nazism in Germany from 1920 to 1945 is highly recommended.

    251. call me dave says:

      @schrodingers cat

      Me too! I enjoy it for its own sake it’s a good read.

      I see the others free from time to time which I have never ever bought, including the Sunday Herald which I tried in the run up to the referendum but don’t buy anymore.

      PS:
      I have never responded to any ‘troll’ it’s better for the blood pressure and I’ve not got the time to waste at my age.

      🙂

    252. Flower of Scotland says:

      @cynicalHighlander

      Livestream is fine with me.

    253. Rock says:

      schrodingers cat,

      “don’t snatch defeat from the jaws of victory”

      We already did last year when we had a once in a 300 years chance.

      They are out to destroy the SNP by smearing it to death and by giving it “powers” to strangle itself with.

      But some of us here are too busy debating with sensibledave to notice.

    254. Chic McGregor says:

      @Scot Filayson
      “Watching the Trident debate I have to say, the blood is up for war among our English MP`s.”

      As long as first strike or reprisal targets are on the Clyde Estuary rather than the Thames Estuary.

    255. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Rock (12.00) –

      Finally, a response.

      Unfortunately, it’s not an answer.

      Would you be happy to see the National disappear?

      It’s a simple question.

      Given what you’ve said right here – consistently, repeatedly – no-one would claim any prizes for guessing your answer.

      So why won’t you confirm it?

      Today of all days – the National’s first birthday – you traduce all who work for it and buy it. So, come on – thumbs up or down for it reaching a second anniversary?

    256. K.A.Mylchreest says:

      Don’t worry Petra, we all know such things could never happen here … (now in how many times and places have people said that?)

    257. Marcia says:

      lenny Hartley

      re The National

      This is the paper copies sold. You have to add the digital subscribers on top of that figure.

    258. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      The BBC online account of the McGarry affair carries this assertion about Michelle Thomson

      “also withdrew from the party after she became the subject of a Police Scotland investigation into alleged irregularities with property deals.”

      This is completely untrue. The Police have made it plain that they are not investigating Thomson nor have any intention to do so.
      They should be sued on this

    259. Chic McGregor says:

      @ Auld Bob 6.54pm

      Great post, as usual.

      Bif fan since s.c.s days.

    260. Rock says:

      lenny Hartley,

      “even at 17k its still only £8.5k per day.”

      £8,500 per day without any overhead costs adds to the Herald’s £48,000 to keep The Herald alive.

      With £48,000 and falling income to meet overhead costs it was dying until gullible independence supporters jumped to its rescue.

      (Your figures not mine)

      It might make us feel good, but The National is not increasing independence support and its unionist owners have no intention of increasing it.

      Why did it not start publishing when the referendum was called?

      Why does it not have hard hitting W O S style journalism?

      Anyone who thinks I am a troll can keep on debating with sensibledave and don’t need to respond to my comments.

    261. Dr Jim says:

      I see Stephen Daisley’s job sharing himself with the BBC now
      or Shelley Jofre just follows his Twitter

      But it sure sounded like 2015 script was exactly the same as Scotland Tonight’s

      I remember when those were two different programmes, they’ve sort of merged into one now
      Maybe they’re sharing budget cuts, they’re certainly sharing Crap, and Content

      And they say the SNP are united, or was it Robots

      Exterminate

    262. Rock says:

      Ian Brotherhood,

      “Unfortunately, it’s not an answer.”

      sensibledave is the one with all the answers.

      Keep on debating with him.

    263. Dr Jim says:

      Is that Kevin McKenna posing as a real person again

    264. Thepnr says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      Just watched your link to the top ten staged media events. Oh man, it is worse and been going on for longer than I imagined.

      How did we possibly arrive at this place?

      O/T See you having a wee discussion with Rock, wouldn’t bother just take him off your Xmas card list. He’s always on a downer.

    265. osakisushi says:

      To be blunt, the Express makes the Daily Mail look competent and the Telegraph as accurate literature.

      But here’s the problem and it effects The National. The quality of printed media in Scotland has gotten to the stage where I stopped buying papers (except for toilet) in 2005.
      Nowadays, I take our local comic, “The Dunoon Observer and Argyllshie Standard” as it supported a local business until a week ago. Jury is now out.

      And I take Private Eye, despite the cartoons. But most of the time either WoS and Guido Fawkes suffices.

      Biased media screwed the market for the National

    266. Petra says:

      @ Ben says at 11:56 …….. NI / OO offer to take Trident ……

      Biggest laugh of the night Ben. Great idea right enough when we all know that one OO man could start a War with himself in an empty room. Attempt to hand Trident over to them and create an Irish civil War!

      In saying that they’ve probably been absolutely racking their brains trying to think of a way to ensure that they stay in the Union, as they’ve got nought by way of resources especially in comparison to Scotland, get the highest level of money re. Barnett and have generally been the greatest bane and heaviest financial drain (other than London) to the UK for decades now. I wonder if they’re kicking themselves now for showing themselves up to be the bunch of incompetent, untrustworthy, sectarian, troublemakers that they are. ………’Aw naw whit did wi dae that fir” ……. with an Irish accent ….. Proof of such on YouTube … all over the Internet.

    267. schrodingers cat says:

      @call me dave

      🙂

    268. Chic McGregor says:

      Three things which easily and simply could be done to greatly alleviate the Middle East crisis (but which won’t be) are:

      1. Assad resigns because he sees himself as part of the problem and calls an election.

      2. Tony Blair is excommunicated by the Catholic church and indited for war crimes.

      3. Brigades of volunteer anti-Daesh muslims are formed in Western countries and deployed there.

    269. schrodingers cat says:

      Rock says:

      But some of us here are too busy debating with sensibledave to notice.

      cat says

      you know nothing rock

      even more worthy of ignoring than sensibledaveNov2015#aboutteatime

    270. Capella says:

      As a wee corrective to the infighting here, why not listen to John Woodcock MP (Barrow In Furness Labour(Co-op))
      The sheer condescending arrogance from him, and the Madam Deputy Speaker, the NI Mp etc is worth observing. These are the real enemies of democracy.

      And an additional treat is the guy who follows, Tom Tugendhat MP (Tonbridge and Malling, Conservative), for sheer warmongering hyperventilation. From 14:13:58

      http://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/744602c3-74fd-40d2-a353-19510c434146

    271. Petra says:

      @ Chick at 12:42am says ”Assad resigns ….. and calls an election”

      Do you think that an election would be feasible Chick with a Civil War going on in the Country? Additionally that’s exactly what the US, Zionists et al want. They want Assad to stand down or get out so that they can install their own puppet regime.

    272. schrodingers cat says:

      Always amazed at armchair generals who believe war war is better than jaw jaw

      comment of the thread

      never been very keen on REMF’s who are too keen to sacrifice other peoples lives

      in an independent Scotland, I would like to see a lottery system, using NI numbers perhaps, whereby 10 elegible people are chosen at random, and if Scotland goes to war, they go with them. ok, maybe only a pr stunt, but it would bring the population back to a reality which has been missing since conscription was abolished

    273. Thepnr says:

      We had the crusades starting 1000 years ago. It lasted for 500 years.

      We are fools, those seeking war now are fools. What’s new?

    274. Capella says:

      Petra says
      @ Chick at 12:42am says ”Assad resigns ….. and calls an election”

      Why should Assad resign? He is popular in Syria by all accounts. He is the head of State in the same way that the Queen is Head of State in the UK and is quite popular.

      The UN resolution allows Russian military action in Syria because they have been invited in by the legitimate government. The UK, the USA and France have not been invited in. So any military action from these entities is illegal.

      When the HoC debates this on Thursday I do hope they bear this in mind. See Media Lens Message Board linked to earlier.
      http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/thread/1448369900.html

    275. Petra says:

      @Capella at 1:23am ……

      Thanks for that link Capella. Very interesting indeed and great to see that some individuals are making a real effort to deal with the propaganda machine. More than anything oppose UK air strikes and clearly outline the legal position.

    276. call me dave says:

      Herald update the McGarry story.

      https://archive.is/dbXxA

    277. Awizgonny says:

      At 4.02 on this thread I invited sensibledave to proffer his strategy for Syria in dealing with ISIS.

      Some ten hours and forty minutes on he has not done so. The reason he has not done so is that he’s nothing but a blawbag. He has nothing worthwhile to say, even on a rational level.

      Instead he chose to bluster on about his contempt for some comments here. What a coward. What a hypocrite. His contempt is there for the start, no matter what subject is being discussed. He hates this website, that is why he comes here.

      What a sad, sad little man.

      Ignore him.

    278. David MacGille-Mhuire says:

      To the Syrian front with “Sensible Dave” & his fellow apparatchik, Unionist (paid?) trolls.

      Let them present their “genitalia tae the wa’s” machismo/Amazon fcuk you personae. concentration guard gallousness up against serious opposition.

      Wankers after the fashion of their mini-battalion of paid Unionist provocateurs who seem to, of late, infest Internet discussion:

      Primary examples on Scot Goes Pop being

      “Glasgow Working Class” (“GWC”}

      and

      “Aldo”.

      Munguins Republic having long hosted a pet psuedo-Greek. pro-Ottoman/Brit neanderthal.

      Twitter & FB recently going in to over-drive with these “bots” of 2 basic types:

      1 Rottweiler Orange Ludge/EDL & SDL/SLABBER @BritLab Accounting Unit elements plus assorted UKIP nutters (none too bright)

      2 Straight for the jugular, put-the-boot-in-random-smearing-and-threatening-unexpected-sanctimonious Dobermans coming at one from nowhere, snarling and with fanged gob exposed (or, ostensibly, bringing your slippers before leaping at your throat)

      Twitter – in particular – seems to be fu’ of them at the moment.

      Fcuk ’em.

      PS BritLab Jockistan seem to be be particularly glaikit at this “game”. Their peers from L’Angleterre even worse.

    279. platinum says:

      If this whole sorry situation in the Middle East does break out into larger scale global war, we must not allow it to compromise our goal of Scottish independence.

      We all know that Scotland was on the verge of Home Rule but WW1 put the breaks on constitutional reform for a century. It must not happen again.

    280. Ken500 says:

      What did the Labour Cowards do again. Run away.

      Labour are a disgrace. Even though Corbyn doesn’t support Nuclear or Illegal Wars, he doesn’t turn up. Murray that useless tool abstains even though the ‘Labour Party’ in Scotland doesn’t support Nuclear in Glasgow. The Tories will start another illegal war and the Labour cowards will go along with it. Westminster Unionists are a bunch of psychopathic criminals who are destroying Britain and the world. They are complete and utter disgrace. Thry have caused the worse crisis in Europe since 11WW. They have caused the vulnerable to starve in Britain and all over the world.
      They are now spending more money they haven’t got on more weaponry and illegal wars. They are a disgrace. The ‘opposition’ runs away again.

      The Unionists politicians are criminals. They will start a nuclear war and who will be the target – Faslane. Those fearty Tories in Cornwall don’t want it based there. Take you nuclear arsenal and get it out of where it was dumped without permission. One of the Tory war dogs even asked ‘where Scotland was going to dump the waste’. A waste of time and space. A waste of £Billions when People can’t, eat, heat and sleep for worry. Scotland will be the target for the lying Tory boys and the despicable ‘opposition’. There will be no peace until they are wiped out in Scotland.

      If Putin cuts of Oil & Gas to Europe. Europe will starve. The Tories have ruined the Oil sector in Scotland which Scotland needs. Taxing it at 75%. Taxing it out of production. Thousands are losing their jobs. Including in the supply chain. Cameron/Osbourne are criminals who act illegally in Scotland and should be charged. They are unelected in Scotland and have no mandate for their abusive and illegal Acts in Scotland. More Oil and Gas has to be imported putting up the balance of payments and the deficit and increasing the rest of the UK debt.

      Climate change did not cause the crisis in Syria, The right Charlie and his relatives and associates did. The biggest tax evading consumers on the Planet. His seventh cousin and the rest of tax evading, illegal liars taking Britain into even more illegal wars are a danger to Scotland. They will be be making £Millions/Billion in consultancies, fees and backhanded on even more wasteful weapon production and illegal actions. Covered up,by the Official Secrets Act. Where’s’s Chilcot Verdict – seven years late.

      The gap between the richest and the most vulnerable gets even bigger in bankrupted Britain. When will they ever learn? Get every Unionist/Green hypocrite politician out of Scotland. Vote for Independence.

    281. Dorothy Devine says:

      callmedave, I rather wish that Ms Sturgeon had emphasised that Ms Thomson and Ms McGarry had voluntarily stood down.

      I watched them reword and spin in print and on the news and invite Rent a Gob to comment – SNP BAD.

      I do not know how some journalists manage to face the mirror of a morning.

    282. Ken500 says:

      Putin – “To avoid a bitter war which nobody craves, for several times, I told the Americans to muzzle their rabid dog in Turkey.”

      Things hot up. Or cool down in Europe when Russia shuts off the Oil & Gas. ‘God bless Anerica’ The US politicians causing trouble all over the world but don’t like it at their borders.

    283. James Anderson says:

      O/T. ‘Rumours’ (trolling?) on social media that Murdoch’s Sunday Times preparing to do a number on another two SNP MPs…anyone else caught this?

    284. Macart says:

      @Dorothy Devine

      And both those ladies did the right thing whilst there is any form of investigation. Folk speculating on any guilt or innocence online does not help either them or Scottish representation at Westminster and the SNP are Scotland’s ONLY representation at Westminster. After this week of Scotland Bill, Trident and the threat of war? Needed now more than ever.

      We know what drives journalism in the UK and its not the need to act as public watchdog or conscience. Its not any form of professionalism or ethics either. Its the bottom line, or its a political agenda, some chain tugger on speed dial sets the agenda and unleashes publishers and broadcasters like attack dogs. Shared self interest, corporate and political compromise end of.

      These publishers/broadcasters only print unadulterated truth when it suits and the rest of the time cherry pick stats and facts to suit a corporate/editorial or political stance. They make folk and they break folk. They have skins like a miners pit boot and can shave in the dark. They have calluses where rest of us have empathy and a conscience, so looking to make them feel any shame for what they do or have done is a waste of time and energy.

      If they didn’t develop that callus, they couldn’t do the job, not the best of them and certainly not the worst of them. But then that callus is also the very thing that makes the terms journalist/journalism toxic to most folk these days. Leveson left us in no doubt what state the industry was in and how endemic their own rot was.

      So onwards and upwards for our own sources of news and commentary, lets leave the rest to the irrelevance they’ve earned for themselves.

    285. sensibledave says:

      …. I am a little calmer this morning and have reread the thread.

      I didn’t think I would see the day when wanting to attack murdering attackers – would be derided as warmongering.

      The most revealing comment came from someone above who pulled out the oft quoted “jaw jaw is better than war war”. In general, we would all agree with that – but it isn’t an option. Firstly the war with ISIL started some time ago. Secondly, we have no idea who speaks for ISIL. Lastly, and most importantly, sometimes it is apparent that no amount of talking or negotiating is going to work – and ISIL’s aims and actions demonstrate that this is one of those occasions.

    286. Capella says:

      On propaganda: what a bizarre organisation BBC Scotland is.
      Here’s a short clip interview with Diana Gabaldon, author of Outlander.
      BBC failed to broadcast this ‘made for TV’ hugely popular all over the world series. Filmed in Scotland, starring Scottish actors and set in Scotland at the time of Culloden, it’s of no interest to BBC Scotland to broadcast it. But they do know it exists.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-34909433

    287. @Flower of Scotland says:

      cynicalHighlander

      Livestream is fine with me.

      Ta I get directed to Delboys website.

      “MCLEAN DIGITAL LIMITED 07984 07 22 99”

    288. Grouse Beater says:

      Expecting full democratic structures and genuine equality as enshrined in the Act of Union is depicted by Unionists as a ‘grievance’.

    289. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      At 10.04pm last night, I typed,

      I’m just waiting for my MP, Chris West, to become the next target.

      Apologies – I conflated ‘Chris Law’ and “Dundee West’.

    290. Grouse Beater says:

      Dippy Dave: We have no idea who speaks for ISIL. No amount of talking or negotiating is going to work

      It is clear to readers that you don’t have a clue about ISIL, but somehow that doesn’t stop you pontificating.

      ISIS: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-2xB

    291. AndyH says:

      Imagine if they scrutinised the Unionist politicians as much?

      At least while they are still alive…

    292. Famous15 says:

      You cannot precision bomb an idea or a belief.

      If the belief is wrong or cruel or uncivilised you do not fuel it by responding in a like manner.

      Shame that the likes of SD wish to shoehorn us into an opinion we do not hold.We are used to our civilised views being demonised so do not fuel these crooked thinkers.

      SNP x 2

    293. heedtracker says:

      sensibledave says:
      25 November, 2015 at 8:28 am
      …. I am a little calmer this morning and have reread the thread.

      States run by the right need perpetual war sensible. And who can really blame toryboys, red and blue. Falklands war saved Snatcher Thatcher world for example.

      BBC etc relentlessly Project Feared Scotland into NO with all kinds of terrifying you’ll be defenceless without England, Trident gives you 19,000 jobs worth of UK security etc, All of it a disgusting display of a state that really loves war and probably like few others.

      And ofcourse toryboy Osborne and co have stripped away several huge military spends in Scotland, despite promising to not strip away Scottish military assets, if we voted blue tory.

    294. Capella says:

      Munguin’s Republic has a good 90 seconds video by Middle East Eye explaining our special relationship with the brutal regime in Bahrain.

      If we are to bring democracy to the Middle East, I would think Saudi Arabia and Bahrain would be priorities.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_ksn6XqqVQ

    295. Chic McGregor says:

      @ Ptera
      “Do you think that an election would be feasible Chick with a Civil War going on in the Country? ”

      No. Only in the parts under government control. But the result, new leader with a partial mandate could help undermine several of the factions’ alleged case.

    296. ahundredthidiot says:

      I think the Unionists think that an SNP landslide is on the way in May and fear indyref2 and the more fringe nutters amongst them will be talking UDI could even be on the cards

      They just don’t trust our canny NS.

      And it appears that their strategy, given the coming War and a very possible EU exit, is based on their fears. All out attack on SNP reps home and abroad seems order of the day.

    297. Chic McGregor says:

      @Capella
      “Why should Assad resign?”

      Because he is an alleged reason for UK and American intervention and his resignation could save lives. It is what I would do.

      Please note folks, I did say this won’t happen.

    298. Marcia says:

      Brian Doonthetoon

      The Unionist press tried it on Richard Arless but it ended in a bit of farce. Then Paul Monaghan was the next one but that went to nothing.

    299. Anagach says:

      sensibledave says:
      25 November, 2015 at 8:28 am

      I didn’t think I would see the day when wanting to attack murdering attackers – would be derided as warmongering.

      But no one is suggesting attacking “murdering attackers”.

      They are pushing for an air bombardment of Syrian people. Which is slightly better than last time (9/11), when they wandered off to attack an unrelated country.

      As for jaw-jaw, the war in Syria will most likely end with victory for the regime and a further wave of executions, or a negotiated peace. I know which I prefer.

    300. skooshcase says:

      There’s a hell of a stink wafting in and out this thread. And, FFS, there it is again at 8.28 am! It smells of fart, halitosis and troll-shite. What a fucking guff!

    301. caz-m says:

      As I said yesterday, sensibledave and a regular commenter on this site is THE SAME PERSON.

      If kill one off, you will kill the two of them off.

      It is becoming increasingly obvious who that guy is.

      Think about it.

    302. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Rock (12.28) –

      I don’t engage with SD.

      I’ve never called you a ‘troll’.

      You haven’t answered the question, and it’s clear you don’t intend to, so I’ll drop it.

      But please take note – it’s one thing to be a ‘glass half-empty’ type of person, and that’s fair enough. It’s quite another to whinge that you don’t even have a glass because ‘what’s the point?…sniff…they always just end up breaking…’

      The independence movement needs all sorts of people with a broad range of views, but it does not need the debilitating negativity you’ve made a personal trademark.

    303. Robert Peffers says:

      @Scaredy cat says: 24 November, 2015 at 1:20 pm:

      ” … It’s a good couple of hours long but definitely worth watching.”

      I’ve better things to do than waste a couple of hours watching conspiracy theorist bullshit.

      ” … I am of the opinion that anyone who saw the twin towers come down knew it was a controlled explosion …

      Pish! The steel girder skeletal construction of these tall buildings is such that, when the steel skeleton is fractured, what was seen happening was exactly what did happened.

      There is enough appalling truth floating around without adding utter bullshit to the mix.

    304. Ruby says:

      “It was in the course of that and the absence of information and not being able to get it that we got to a position where we had nowhere else to go with except to hand it to the police,” the source said.

      When asked if WFI passed its concerns on the SNP, The National’s source said: “What are we supposed to say? One of your candidates is really f*****g annoying?” National

      I would love to know who the National’s source is. Who decided to go to the police and who passed the story onto the press.

      What is Kate Higgins doing these days?

    305. Bob Mack says:

      The internet is full of video from Apache attack helicopters blowing apart insurgents if that is your thing.

      It is also full of maimed, murdered, innocent children too small to hold a cup ,never mind a Kalashnikov, nullified by Apache helicopters, if that is your thing.

      Seems the pilots put it down to collateral damage.

    306. Glamaig says:

      Radio Shortbread lead news item at 7 this morning was SNP Natalie Bad, I suppose there’s not much else going on in the world just now for them to report…

      I go to the Reuters website for my news these days. The world looks different when not filtered through the BBC. Not a mention of McGarry anywhere despite its apparent world-shattering importance according to BBC Scotland.

    307. sensibledave says:

      Grouse Beater 8.46

      I read your article. I am not going to go through everything again other than to look for areas of agreement:

      You wrote “Distasteful in the extreme as it is, ISIS appears to have established itself pretty firmly in Sunni areas of Iraq and Syria.”

      …. We agree that ISIS exists, not just as an “ideology”, it has an army, it has weapons, it is at war, it kills people indiscriminately in pursuit of goals that the average westerner cannot begin to comprehend. It exists as a physical entity and its various whereabouts can often be highlighted on a map.

      You wrote: “The most favourable outcome is a negotiated settlement of the kind being discussed by the main powers now, combined with ISIS defeated by local armed factions.

      ….. We agree. However, you will probably agree that the best we can hope for, and it is still a very long shot, is some sort of agreement that will end the civil war in Syria.

      We can also agree that there is probably nothing “the west” can do in getting that agreement. Russia, Iran and Hezbollah want to remain in control of the outcome of events in Syria. Unless we want to fight Russia (which we don’t and wont) we (the west), will have to accept that Syria is a lost cause and, realistically, there is nothing we can do.

      We can also agree that none of those discussions or negotiations will include ISIS representatives.

      You say “the best outcome should be that ISIS should be defeated by local armed forces”. We agree. We clearly agree that defeating/killing ISIS fighters is a desirable goal.

      It is hard for us “normal” people to be so disgusted at the actions of other human beings that we end up wanting their death. But, somehow, that is where we have got to.

      We agree that ISIS needs to be defeated in battle. We agree that there is a war. We agree that that war will have to happen to defeat ISIS. We disagree on who should be involved in the war with ISIS in Syria. Again, we agree that ISIS needs to be faced on the battle field.

      This is the important bit Grousey – that doesn’t make you a warmongerer.

      You wrote “What we desire is time for ISIS fighters to grow old and weary.”

      … that is a plan – but it is not the one which I believe will yield the results we need in the time we need them.

      In summary, outside of all the bluster above, you and I agree on most of the issues being discussed above. We agree that ISIL (to use the biblical adjective) are the closest thing to “evil” that we have witnessed in modern times.

      Bombing civilian aircraft, shooting people at a rock concert, beheading aid workers on camera, killing thousands of innocent civilians in local communities as a main objective, etc – are not the actions of any civilisation that we recognise. In addition, whilst we can see similarities with the actions of some Nazis in WW2, even they didn’t display the commitment to their cause that ISIS demonstrate. Their’s is indeed an ideological cause for which they are prepared to die and that ideological cause will continue to exist, and be pursued, whilst they remain alive.

      In summary, and with respect to this very serious subject, it would appear that you and I agree on most things Grousey. However, we do clearly disagree on one element i.e. should we (the UK) get involved in killing ISIS fighters in Syria (and maybe Iraq).

      And yes, being called a “warmongerer” because I accept that there is a war, and I think that we should (for all sorts of reasons) assist others in fighting that war against a common enemy (ISIS), really did get under my skin.

    308. Anagach says:

      Chic McGregor says:

      3. Brigades of volunteer anti-Daesh muslims are formed in Western countries and deployed there.

      Please tell me you dont think that a muslim from the UK and one from Syria are somehow the same.

      Its like saying its ok to invade the Philippines with Russians after all they are both Christian.

    309. Robert Peffers says:

      @Scot Finlayson says: 24 November, 2015 at 10:20 pm:

      “Can anyone explain what benefits NI get out of the new Northern Ireland (Welfare Reform)bill and is this devolution that us The Most Devolved Country In The History of Anything have not got.”

      Scotland does not even have the most devolve functions within the United Kingdom, Scott. That prize does indeed go to Northern Ireland as reference to the respective Block Grants on a per capita basis will show.

      N.I. is above Scotland who are sandwiched between NI and Wales but way out in front of everyone else is, without doubt, England for The United Kingdom Government is the de facto parliament of England, (and that is without, “English Votes for English Laws”).

      Westminster legislates for specifically for England, under English Law and uses United Kingdom funding for all English matters. To all intents and purposes the UK and England are synonymous.

      Here, as a very small example, is a fact:- Westminster funds, “UK National Art Galleries”, simply as, “National Galleries”, but each and every such United Kingdom, “National”, asset is ensconced in England and mostly in London.

      National Museums, Art Galleries, National Ballet, National Opera, Greenwich Observatory, National Theatre, and so on. They are not even just English and based in England but belong to London and benefit only London.

      The rest of the UK, to be fair, does get the great pleasure of paying for them, though.

    310. Bob Mack says:

      @sensibledave,

      This mornings news should have told you that ISIS, like the Vietcong are living in tunnels away from the bombing.
      Who therefore are the bombs killing?

      The CIA estimate that ISIL have 100,000 members in Syria, but over double that number throughout the middle East.
      Gonna kill them all?

      They have learned their trade well from different terror groups and cells.Almost impossible to eradicate with conventional methods.

    311. Lollysmum says:

      Flower of Scotland
      My bookmark for indylive has changed & I get a holding page for McLean Digital

      Livestreams are available here
      http://livestream.com/IndependenceLive

    312. Ruby says:

      I wish I were as popular on this site as ‘sensible dave’ it would make me feel special and well loved!

    313. heedtracker says:

      Macart says:
      25 November, 2015 at 10:27 am
      A thing that actually that happened yesterday.

      So where’s the actual BBC report/analysis on why future PM JC, who says he would NEVER push the button, abstained yesterday?

      WTF is going on in Labour? JC surely cant be another sociopath like Blair or Brown for fcuks sake. Although its probably just that psychotic Labour hate of anything Scottish democracy.

      We want our SLabour Scotland region back fury, sort of thing.

      Labour MPs help to beat SNP on Trident as Jeremy Corbyn abstains

    314. Bob Mack says:

      @Ruby,

      You are.

    315. Lenny Hartley says:

      Rock I give in to your superior knowledge of business, wonder who else is producing a newspaper with no overheads, amazing no Payroll costs, no heating, no allocation of costs for equipment, no depreciation on furniture and fittings, no national insurance, no tax, no distribution costs, etc etc etc

      I’ve done discussing this subject except to say they are some gullible idiots about and they ain’t all National readers.

    316. schrodingers cat says:

      conflict resolution in Syria requires the usa to work with Russia

      it looks less and less likely, unfortunately. this lack of cooperation is likely to escalate the conflict not solve it.

      the snp policy is correct. no intervention without un resolution.

      without agreement between the nato allies, the western policy will fail.

      without such pan nation agreement, there will be no consensus within the population of the uk. the anti war protestors will mobilise, armed with a fair few very good reasons to protest against Cameron and as the situation worsens, the anti war movement will grow. led by the snp

      the yes movement does not exist in a vacuum. its future success depends on how it plays out against the ever changing environment in the background.

      Zdravstvujtye tovarich

    317. Chic McGregor says:

      @Anagach

      “Please tell me you dont think that a muslim from the UK and one from Syria are somehow the same.”

      I do not think that a muslim from the UK and one from Syria are the same.

      However Islamic State purport to be waging a religious war (jihad) in the name of Islam, clue is in the name. The suggested action would demonstrate that many muslims disagree with it and would be a very big blow to their alleged underlying motivation.

      However, as with the other suggestions, it will not happen because not only would those volunteering become immediate personal targets at home as well as in the field but their families would too.

      I repeat, none of those suggestions have any likelihood of happening whatsoever.

    318. Alastair says:

      Question for our UK MP’s

      Honestly, would you voluntarily offer up your own sons and daughters to a theatre of war?

    319. schrodingers cat says:

      Bob Mack says:

      This mornings news should have told you that ISIS, like the Vietcong are living in tunnels away from the bombing

      if you dig down 2 ft pretty much everywhere, and you hit solid rock.

      this is why defences in the middle east tend to be made by pushing sand into ridge type structures called “berms”

      they give limited protection by attack from above

    320. Andrew McLean says:

      Bob Mack,
      the same CIA, or was it the NSA, who said Isis will morph back into the separate factions, re integrate with anti Assad rebels, till the worlds attention wanes? Conventional warfare yes try it, don’t for one second think you are winning not sure you are even containing, but for every wife or child you kill or more correctly martyr you make a brother, husband, son or father you’re sworn enemy.
      Most terrorist we face today are citizens of the countries they attack, radicalized by true hate preachers who play on the Wests failures.
      Now some would try to limit debate to what would you do today, and call you coward because you question why we are where we are. This call for vengeance is human nature and yes I do know what you refer to Bob, how astute of you!
      But attempting to limit the debate to what would you do today is a bigger disservice to those who died in Afghanistan and Iraq. It is not our call what happens, what will be will be, but to hell with anyone who tries to stifle any debate to call to account actions by our government in our name.

      Fucking armchair generals, I despise them, real Generals are usually without fail very nice guys when you get to know them.

    321. Bob Mack says:

      @scridingers cat,

      These tunnels have been created with pneumatic drills.They are not new,but have been there for some time. ISIS have predug them it looks,prior to major hostilities commencing.

      No doubt others will be found. They have obviously been preparing fof some time. Place was full of American ammo ,medical kits etc.

    322. Thepnr says:

      @cynicalHighlander @Lolysmum

      independencelive.net without using www. will take you to the correct page.

    323. Alastair says:

      Media spinning how generous Cameron is with increase in pensions.

      They bribed the huge pensioner vote with a “triple lock” which became law in 2010.
      So he is giving nothing extra the triple lock is inflation or 2.5%.

      He legally has to give 2.5%.
      Like the Vow bribes to get a result then try and manage the pain.

    324. A DNS faux pas on http://www.independencelive.net – it’ll be fixed soon. In the mean time just drop the WWW and it works. http://independencelive.net

      Thanks for flagging it up @cyncialHighlander

    325. Gerry says:

      Re Syria – I never thought I would ever read so much pish on this site as I have in this thread. We have just killed over a million in the middle east in the last few years and not only do some wonder why we now find ourselves targets, they seem to think that killing some more people might somehow fix it. I despair.
      We created the fertile ground for jihadist extremist groups, they are only reaping the harvest that we planted for them. Our politicians have bought into the US philosophy that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
      For this reason we now find ourselves governed by the politics of fear, making decisions based on “what if” rather than “what is”.
      Again, the Syria conflict is merely the US taking on Russia by proxy. The best thing that could happen now is for China to slap the US down in the same way that they did after the US stepped into Pakistan once too often recently.
      It looks increasingly like this could happen. And as with the Pakistan warning that China issued to the US, America will shit its pants and leave.
      Let Putin have his Syrian ports, let him have his Syrian gas line if he wants it. It’s not as if we are in any position to lecture anybody about wars over energy is it.
      @famous – nail right on head mate – “can’t bomb an idea”.

    326. Robert Peffers says:

      @r baxter says: 24 November, 2015 at 11:09 pm:

      ” … there will never be democracy at Westminster as long as people elect narssistic unionist bastards.”

      You are only partially correct, R Baxter.

      There never ever has been democracy at Westminster. It was originally the English aristocracy and crown running The three country Kingdom of England then the English aristocracy apparently taking over power from the Monarchy in 1688, (The Glorious Revolution).

      In fact instead of the Parliament becoming legally sovereign it kept the monarchy as the legal Sovereign but with the English Aristocracy as the parliament. A Constitutional Monarchy.

      The three country Kingdom of England then attempted to form a United Kingdom by the 1706/7 Treaty of Union with the Kingdom of Scotland but that ended up with the people of Scotland still remaining legally sovereign and those in the Kingdom of England still as a Constitutional Monarchy.

      That is still the legal situation as exists today. However, Westminster is the de facto parliament of England and still retains hereditary peers in the HOL and a sovereign monarchy. The same old Establishment elite it has always been.

      Note, however, that Westminster has always just ignored the legal fact that the people of Scotland are legally sovereign, (in spite of at least two Scottish Claim of Rights).

      If you doubt all that, consider what David, (Fluffy), Mundell quoted from a Westminster funded paper by two self proclaimed constitutional experts.

      The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom.

      There is absolutely no documentary evidence, nor legal precedent, for such claims. The Treaty of Union remains legally a bipartite agreement between only two equally sovereign Kingdoms.

      As such Westminster was wrong to then split up the UK along the lines of country without the express agreement of the legally sovereign people of Scotland. That is the people and not the elected to parliament representatives.

      This, in itself, is justification for a majority of the people of Scotland to withdraw from the bipartite Union and, in spite of the erroneous Westminster propaganda, the Status quo Ante of that actually ends the Union and thus the United Kingdom.

      This as both signatory Kingdoms then legally revert to the pre-Union status of two equally sovereign Kingdoms, (note – NOT Countries).

      Now go think of what that means for UK claims of Scotland leaving behind a still united Kingdom. You cannot have a union with only one Kingdom and the Kingdom of England annexed Wales in 1284 and Ireland in 1542. Thus these two both came into the union as part of the Kingdom of England – neither Wales or Ireland signed the treaty of Union. They thus remained parts of the 1706/7 Kingdom of England.

    327. sensibledave says:

      Ruby 10:48 am

      “I wish I were as popular on this site as ‘sensible dave’ it would make me feel special and well loved!!

      …. not sure you could cope with being as “popular” as me Rubes. If I was interested in being “popular” I would just write “BritNat, Hate Preaching, Warmongerer, etc,” and then loads of other people would write “me too” or “hear, hear”.

      When a subject gets raised as divisive as this one is, I always look at who has not commented – and wonder why.

    328. @Lollysmum

      It’s not just me then. That Media website is Derek(Delboy) of Livestream he has crossed the wires somehow.

    329. Will Podmore says:

      schrodingers cat wrote, “the usa and nato have begun to realise they have been backing the wrong rebels in Iraq and Syria and are in the process of changing side.”
      I’d like to believe that the US and NATO are seeing sense, but still doubt it. Where’s the evidence?
      Obama’s response to Turkey’s shooting down of the Russian plane only makes a dangerous situation even more so.
      We should all be demanding no British intervention in Syria!

    330. Petra says:

      JOAN McALPINE: ‘Time to turn off terror tap by taking Saudis to task for funding fundamentalism.’

      ”Saudi Arabia uses a thirst for education in poor countries to export a warped ideology while also using petrodollars to finance Isis. Bombing in Syria wont defeat Isis. So what will? Bomb a terrorist and 10 more spring from the bloody remains. So a different tactic is required.

      We must end the West’s ­relationship with those who fund Isis, now considered the world’s richest terrorist organisation and valued at £1.3billion. Some of that money comes from crime – and the illegal sales of oil. But the United States ­Congressional Research Service have said much of the murderous quasi-state’s budget comes from “private donors” in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the UAE and Kuwait. We must stem that flow of blood money.

      It has long been known that the Saudi regime exports the fanatical creed of Wahhabism through ­religious schools that are set up across the Middle East and beyond. Exact numbers are not known, but it is thought the equivalent of more than £66million has been spent on exporting Wahhabism to much poorer Muslim nations over the past three decades.

      Wahhabism is considered by many to be a perverted distortion of Islam which justifies violence and is completely intolerant of other faiths and indeed human rights. But it is also known that wealthy individuals inside these countries are not just promoting the ideology that drives the terrorism but the violence itself.

      A Wikileaks cable released several years ago quoted the then-secretary of state Hillary Clinton as saying “donors in Saudi Arabia constitute the most significant source of funding to Sunni terrorist groups worldwide. More needs to be done since Saudi Arabia remains a critical financial support base for al-Qaeda, the Taliban, LeT and other terrorist groups”. LeT are the group which staged a Paris-style terror attack in Mumbai in 2008. The memo suggests terrorists use Saudi Arabia as a cash machine. Other countries mentioned in the Wikileaks cable also include Kuwait, UAE and Quatar. Clinton complained of the “ongoing challenge to persuade Saudi officials to treat terrorist funds emanating from Saudi Arabia as a strategic priority”.

      Other investigations have pointed to neighbouring regimes. Andrew Tabler, senior fellow at the ­Washington Institute for Near East Policy has, for example, said Kuwait’s banking system and its money changers are “a major conduit for money to extremist groups in Syria and now Iraq”.

      But instead of turning the Isis funders into pariahs, we sell them arms. Western governments fall over themselves to flatter and seduce the petrobillionaires in these regimes. Worse than simply doing ­business, they actually do deadly business. The UK has licensed £4billion of arms sales to the Saudis since 2010, building on many years of lucrative arms deals between the regime and UK governments of both Labour and Tory complexions.

      The UK plan to deliver 22 Hawk jets to the regime, which, like Isis, publicly beheads people – often vulnerable foreign workers subjected to show trials that they do not understand. The Stockholm International Peace Research Institute shows that the UK is now responsible for 36 per cent of all Saudi arms imports. UK Trade and Investment, the organisation that promotes and facilitates exports, seems to see the misery that has gripped the region for so long as a market opportunity. One of their documents from 2013 noted that the Middle East’s “global policing and security market has ballooned”.

      Not that our allies are much better. The European Union as a whole is Saudi Arabia’s most important arms supplier. And the misery in the Middle East more generally has benefited the arms trade. More bombing means more ­business, that’s for sure. If the territory currently overrun by Isis in northern Iraq and Syria is completely pulverised, funds will be redirected to another branch of barbarism.

      The cancer is already well ­established well beyond Syria in Libya, Afghanistan, Somalia, parts of Nigeria, Mali and even remote areas of Pakistan. As long as the financiers of terror remain untouched, no amount of bombing will eradicate it.”

    331. Valerie says:

      I’m enjoying your posts, @Petra. It all shows how complex the situation is, and if I was related to anyone in the Forces right now, I’d be lobbying Labour and Tory to stay out of this conflict.

      When the f**k will this country but out of other countries, or does imperialism never die?

      I disagree with Chic McGregor about Assad, as many commentators are saying taking him down will take everyone to a bigger bloodbath, that much faster. Secondly, on Assad, just don’t believe every bit of propaganda about him.

      EVEN the BBC had to report the gas attack as ‘unverified’. If the U.S. and the UK keep running him down, that’s enough for me to ask – why? If Daesh were initially to destabilise Assad, and are now out of control, what can we believe?

      I am no apologist for him, but I am certainly wondering if there is a truthful version of Assads actions.

      This last week saw Russia removed from the UKs threat list, yet he was set to invade us a short while ago. Who can forget Ruthies hysteria?

      People need to read far and wide, compare notes, and ask how we are being manipulated.

    332. Rock says:

      Ian Brotherhood,

      “The independence movement needs all sorts of people with a broad range of views”

      We wasted our resources on the wrong sort of people during the campaign and it seems we haven’t learnt much from our mistakes.

      To get a majority next time we need the support of the people who live in the schemes. The RIC and Tommy Sheridan made a very good effort last time.

      We must ignore the middle classes, the elderly and settlers from the south. The vast majority of them are not going to change their minds no matter what.

      And if they do, it will be due to their own selfish interests, not because of being convinced by us.

      What is the point of wasting valuable resources on them when they could be better spent elsewhere?

      And SNP supporters must not get duped into giving their list vote to the Greens or anyone else in 2016.

    333. Rock says:

      Lenny Hartley,

      “wonder who else is producing a newspaper with no overheads, amazing no Payroll costs, no heating, no allocation of costs for equipment, no depreciation on furniture and fittings, no national insurance, no tax, no distribution costs, etc etc etc”

      All the expenses you state are expenses being incurred by The Herald whether or not The National is published.

      The National’s £8,500 per day is a boost of 18% to The Herald’s £48,000 income with perhaps a 5% increase to costs (paper and ink).

      The extra 13% allows The Herald to survive, thanks to people like yourselves.

      Almost all that income comes from independence supporters.

      Its a win win situation for the unionist publishers of The Herald.

      Why don’t they make The Herald unbiased and neutral instead? And sack Gardham.

    334. Andrew McLean says:

      Rock

      The National whilst not perfect is better than nothing, If the National fails the Herald will survive, and we will lose the only daily paper we have. So who benefits most, certainly not the independence movement. If the National builds it readership resources will transfer from the Herald, and the Herald editorial will become more independence friendly. At the end of the day this is a business run by accountants.

    335. crazycat says:

      @ Ruby

      That’s a very, very interesting question at the end of your 9.58 am post – one which has crossed my mind several times in the last few days, strangely. Good to know I’m (maybe) not alone.

      And don’t worry about the nonsensical one – your posts are better than his in every way.

    336. cirsium says:

      @Valerie, 1.35

      You mentioned the ‘gas attack’ which was supposed to have been carried out by Assad’s forces and supposed to lead to US/UK bombing of Syria in 2012.

      http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n08/seymour-m-hersh/the-red-line-and-the-rat-line

      Seymour Hersh is the journalist who exposed the My Lai massacre in the Vietnam War.

    337. Fred says:

      Love the Nash, don’t give a fuck who owns it!

    338. Andrew McLean says:

      O/T
      Very interesting listening to General Jonathan Shaw on GMS, apart for the comment on having a stake in the game if you want to comment, which is a valid point, he encapsulates what we all have being saying here, to go in without a plan is to repeat your mistakes in Iraq, and that Iraq was easy compared to Syria where you don’t know who your friends are.

      Now juxtapose that against the armchair general who would rush in with blood lust, and you see that sending men to potentially the ultimate sacrifice is not a thing you do without carefully, very carefully planing. And that must include knowing what you intend to leave behind you when you do eventually leave.

      Now if you can’t do that, you solve no problem, destroy no threat, you just open up another can of worms!

      If Churchill is passé, then to better describe the lack of sensibleness by the armchair warrior, I describe him thus, A sophistical rhetorician, inebriated with the exuberance of his own verbosity, and gifted with an egotistical imagination that can at all times command an interminable and inconsistent series of arguments to malign an opponent and to glorify himself.

    339. Rock says:

      Andrew McLean,

      “If the National fails the Herald will survive”

      That is not true.

      The National is bought almost exclusively by independence supporters while The Herald is bought almost exclusively by unionists.

      The Herald has survived because of The National cash cow of gullible independence supporters.

      Do you seriously thing that if The National stops publishing (which it will as soon as its unionist owners think it is increasing support for independence) independence supporters will go back to The Herald?

    340. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Rock – you still haven’t answered Ian Brotherhood’s question:

      Do you support the existence of The National or would you rather there wasn’t a pro-indy, 6 days a week, newspaper?



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