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Doing walking away

Posted on February 03, 2019 by

This is Sinn Fein leader Mary Lou McDonald on today’s Andrew Marr show:

While she doesn’t say so explicitly, McDonald appears to strongly imply that the SNP’s MPs would be as well to boycott the UK Parliament, as Sinn Fein’s have always done.

And that’s an interesting idea.

This site has no position. We can see valid cases on both sides regarding whether the SNP should take their seats, and it’s perhaps worth taking a moment to outline them.

The pro-boycott line is that Scotland’s MPs are consistently ignored and even openly derided. (The latter is impossible to dispute if you ever watch Scottish Questions in the Commons, where Tory, Labour and Lib Dem MPs alike jeer and catcall and abuse any SNP MP who has the temerity to speak for Scottish interests.) Therefore they achieve nothing by turning up except to allow Scotland to be disrespected and belittled.

And the UK government doesn’t, as a matter of policy, acknowledge Scotland’s MPs as a bloc representing the nation even when they act across party loyalties. During negotiations over the Scotland Bill in 2015, MPs representing 58 of Scotland’s 59 constituencies were united on a number of demands, yet every one of them was overruled peremptorily by a government with just a single Scottish MP.

Finally, of course, the UK Parliament frequently actively blocks the democratic will not only of Scotland’s MPs in the Commons but of Scotland’s own elected Parliament. Holyrood has a standing mandate for a second independence referendum, passed by a Scottish Parliament comprising five proportionately-represented parties including three Unionist ones, yet Westminster simply refuses to obey the normal rules of a parliamentary democracy by enacting that mandate.

So given that Scottish MPs have only 9% of the UK Parliament’s votes and will almost always be subject to being overridden by the government of the day, the argument runs that a boycott makes a strong statement and denies legitimacy to a government which has no democratic mandate in Scotland and demonstrates no respect for the wishes of Scotland as a nation.

The main counterpoint, of course, is that by withholding their participation, MPs are failing to represent their constituents. (To which boycott advocates would retort that for the reasons listed above, that job is effectively impossible anyway. The united opposition of Scottish MPs to the bedroom tax, for example, had no impact on it being imposed on Scotland.)

Opponents of a boycott also point out that it would presumably only be undertaken by SNP MPs, leaving a small rump of Tory, Labour and Lib Dems to nominally speak for Scotland at Westminster, putting constituents of SNP MPs at a potential disadvantage when electoral bribes were being handed out as well as in other more abstract ways.

(Abstract because having your MP speak up for you in Parliament is a theoretically important principle, but almost all UK governments have absolute majorities which steamroller over any possibility of that representation actually doing you any good.)

The outcome of that scenario might be those constituencies deciding to elect Unionist MPs instead, reducing the moral strength of the boycott. If the MPs boycotting the Commons only hold a quarter or a fifth of Scotland’s seats, it’s a lot harder to present it as a rejection of democratic illegitimacy.

(It should be noted that this issue has not occurred in Sinn Fein’s case – it currently holds more Northern Irish seats than at any time in its history – but political allegiances in Scotland are less entrenched, and seats which have been held by Unionist parties for the vast bulk of the last century might more easily revert to their old habits.)

Finally, abandoning Parliament altogether would expose the SNP to an obvious charge of hypocrisy given their frequent and justified mockery of Labour’s shameful cowardice in abstaining on any difficult votes. (Even though it would be being done as a matter of deliberate principle rather than hapless triangulating indecision.)

So those are the basic cases for and against. In the next poll we commission, we’ll probably test Scottish public opinion on the subject just out of interest, because we can’t recall it ever being asked by anyone and it’d be intriguing to find out.

In the meantime, then, we’re offering it up as a discussion point for a boring Sunday on which very little is happening as politics takes a breath before lurching into the Brexit trainwreck again next week. Let us know what you think, readers.

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    1. 03 02 19 13:56

      Doing walking away | speymouth

    487 to “Doing walking away”

    1. Richard Hunter says:

      Personally, I would be for because I think you have to take bold and dramatic action in order for people to take notice.

      My guess though that this would be unpopular amongst the general populace who (quite reasonably) expect to get representation in parliament.

      I’ll be interested to see the poll.

    2. Truth says:

      If we had any sort of functioning Scottish mainstream media, I’d be all for the idea in the knowledge that the reasons would be properly and sympathetically explained to the public.

      We don’t, so I think it would probably do more harm than good. Temporary walkouts on specific matters is probably the way to go.

    3. Richard Smith says:

      While the SNP have a decent tranche of MPs, they’re always going to be a worry for the other parties. If Labour took a few more seats, there could be a minority Labour government selectively propped up by the SNP. This has to be preying on the minds of the Tories.

      Also, the comportment of the SNP contingent continues to earn respect and goodwill.

    4. Darren Docherty says:

      Just do it!
      Put it in the manifesto for the next election that if a majority of seats are won, we declare independence

    5. Dr Jim says:

      The Tories and Labour effectively boycott their own parliament over anything involving the SNP then march into the lobbies from the bars to vote against anything the SNP do or say without ever even caring what the issue is about as long as they vote the SNP down

      And they laugh at and mock Scotland every time they do it

      If the SNP are to remain in the HOC perhaps doing the same to the opposition instead of engaging with them in debate and subjecting themselves and us to abuse

    6. Alan says:

      One massive point is missed here.

      If the SNP MPs boycotts Westminster at the present time, it transforms the hung parliament into an umambigious Tory majority no longer reliant on DUP votes. Suddenly the UK-wide backstop May asked for can be pared back down to the original NI-only backstop and can then pass with ERG support.

      Let’s not be blind to the fact that Sinn Fein likes the deal and it suits them if it is passed. I do not think Scottish voters would back the SNP again if they were largely responsible for the above happening.

    7. jimnarlene says:

      The romantic in me says yes go for it, boycott the place.
      The realist says we’d be slaughtered by the MSM and unionist commentators, not just the usual tripe a whole new level of spleen venting.
      As distasteful as it is, they just have to grin and bear it

    8. Dr Jim says:

      Holyrood’s opposition MSPs just demonstrated a boycott of the budget process on a ridiculous premise *drop what you stand for politically and then we’ll talk to you, don’t drop what you stand for and we’ll F..k up the process*

      Contempt of parliament’s what I call that when you consider most of the opposition weren’t even voted into a seat but were GIVEN one on the proportional representation system

    9. defo says:

      Another “this is not the time” would, imho, be the cue to clear off, out of the midden.
      What point in continuing after that?
      Unless you’ve got masochistic tendencies.

    10. Colin Alexander says:

      Boycott: no. Serves no purpose.

      Withdraw our MPs so those MPs along with MSPs then declare Holyrood as the parliament representing Scotland’s political sovereignty: yes.

      That’s not independence. It’s a rejection of the current Union.

      It’s then up to the people of Scotland to choose whether to go for full independence. Even if not ready for full indy, the sovereign people could decide on indy-lite or devo-max where HOLYROOD decides what’s devolved to Westminster or reserved to Holyrood until they are ready to go full indy.

      Of course, a union where Scotland is not subjugated, not treated like a colony; a union where Scotland’s voice is heard and respected as an equal partner just won’t happen.

      It would be indy.

    11. solarflare says:

      It feels like a very extreme last resort to be used when every other option has been exhausted.

      But to me it feels since the last general election the SNP have taken a sort of slightly timorous, cautious – albeit also reasonably pragmatic – approach. I think they still have a other moves to work through before getting to that extreme a position. They’ve got a few gears to accelerate up into before a boycott would make much sense – and boycotting Westminster would be completely at odds with their current way of going about things.

      Besides, in many ways at the moment all they have to do is turn up and watch the system around them crumbling anyway without them even having to do that much.

    12. starlaw says:

      Well said Mary Lou McDonald, there is no place in Westminster for Irish politics.
      However Scotland has still to achieve your position. It is best that SNP still attends Westminster if for nothing else than to show the people of Scotland how Westminster despises their presence and it is only Scotlands wealth that interests Westminster. Looking forward to the day when a totally free Ireland can meet a free Scotland to discuss what will best serve both our nations.

    13. Alan Mackintosh says:

      What would be far more effective is for specific disruption tactics to be employed. Any walkout would be given the usual msm bias against and thus act as a stick to beat the snp. What disruption to carry out, i have no idea, but I’m sure Eck isn’t the only one who knows his way around Erskine May. Given the huge amount of stuff to be done, from memory only 100 out of 600 bits of law have been done so far to transfer across from EU law so time is short enough already without any delays happening. Theres 39 of them so thats enough for each of them to do something and get suspended for a day.

    14. Ronald AlexanderMcDonald says:

      I would be in favour when we are denied a S3O Order and the polls show a majority of Scots in favour of another Independence referendum.

    15. frankieboy180 says:

      The SNP MP’s withdrawing from WM would only be effective if they took some power with them. They wouldn’t. WM is the most corrupt, cruel and brutal regime on earth. They will defend what they have at any cost. Scotland better be prepared for it when a YES vote wins the independence referendum.

    16. ScottieDog says:

      Don’t think the snp MPs have come this far and through all the shit they have been subjected to just to walk away now.
      They need to see this through until the shit reallystarts hitting the fan.

      I do believe they have a plan. Just wish I knew what it was!

    17. Suzanne says:

      Used to think it was the best thing our SNP MPs could do, but I’m not so sure anymore. One of the main reasons for them staying there for the time being is that, although they are treated like lepers by the other parties within Westminster, the clips that go out on social media get a great deal of admiration and respect from people both south and north of the border.

      Additionally, while media appearances are few and far between, our MPs make a huge impact on public opinion. You only have to see comments from down south about how they wish they could vote SNP, or that they’d love to move to Scotland because of our fine MPs.

      Without them being there, our impact would be lessened, our media presence would drop, and the old saying “out of sight, out of mind” will start to bite.

      It’s a hellhole down there. We should all be very grateful, thankful and appreciative of what they put up with, and when we do finally get to bring them home they will be greeted with tickertape, bands, crowds and a nation’s grateful thanks.

    18. Gavin Alexander says:

      Before a poll on the subject, it would be interesting and useful to see some stats of how effective/ineffective Scottish MPs actually are in Westminster. How often are Scottish MPs out-voted, even when united (or nearly) across party lines? How often do Scotland’s majority party MPs (SNP) vote on the winning side? How often are Scottish/SNP motions or amendments successful (as compared to rUK MPs and UK parties)? etc

      This would help in deciding whether they are of any use in WM or not.

    19. A C Bruce says:

      I think there’s a minority of Scots who watch the shenanigans at Westminster and, since the ignorant behaviour towards our SNP MPs there is hardly ever reported in our Scottish (ahem) msm, I don’t think too many people are aware of the derision sent their way every time they speak.

      My gut instinct is to bring them home for all the reasons Stuart refers to in his piece but they have been sent there to represent their constituents and must be seen to do that for the moment at least.

      Long term, of course, I hope enough people in Scotland come to realise that their place is in Scotland, not Westminster, and they will be in a position to tell England’s parliament where to shove it.

    20. galamcennalath says:

      Independence will get our MPs out of WM permanently, and that is the right time for it to happen.

      The media is hopelessly pro Union, the action would be totally misrepresented. While our MPs are in WM it gives opportunities to be heard and reported, even though it all comes to nowt.

      And you never know, after a GE the SNP might actually hold the balance of power.

      The situations of NI and Scotland are totally different. Imagine Scotland was already independent, but somehow a partition had allowed the pro-UK Borders to remain under WM rule. People living there were entitled to Scottish citizenship and passports. Those who live there and felt the Borders should not have been carved out of Scotland, don’t recognise the partition. Some of the MPs elected could be pro-unification. Should they sit in WM, or boycott? I would say boycott.

      Sinn Féin’a stance makes perfect sense viewed from an Irish perspective. The SNP have to play by different rules for now IMO.

      I can foresee different circumstances. Perhaps the SNP could stand in an election with a manifesto commitment to pursue independence and remove MPs for WM, for instance.

    21. Geordie says:

      I’m VERY strongly against SNP MPs withdrawing from Westminster. It would make it easy for other parties in SNP constituencies to merely argue that a vote for the SNP is a ‘wasted’ vote. We all know there are enough easily-swayed voters with soft political positions to buy that sort of argument.

    22. Andrew Morgan says:

      I think stay.
      It is more annoying for unionist parties to have us there – the barracking and insults prove this.
      This is good because they keep making political mistakes by criticising the SNP and, often by inference, Scotland.
      It’s gradually turning the tide in favour of independence as a result, because voters [especially in Scotland] see how Anglo-centric, as well as anti-Scotland (or anywhere north of Oxfordshire), Westminster is.
      People soon get fed up with this, and act/vote accordingly.

    23. Hamish100 says:

      Sinn Feinn- a bit rich to criticise the SNP at Westminster (they have no wish to be there but do get some coverage as to their views)

      NI views are led by the DUP each evening and negates any contrary view.

      No wish just to see Iain Murray and his tory counterparts running ScotLand down and the SNP.

      The SNP are the MAIN OPPOSITION to May. Corbyn – well in a few weeks will show his weakness by voting for one form of brexit and then call for a general election to absolve himself from all blame- or so he thinks.

    24. James Harvey says:

      Like you I watched Mary Lou this morning and thought there was great clarity in what she said. However, as someone born and raised in Northern Ireland who lives in Scotland I do not agree that Nationalist MP’s should boycott. This is because Scotland is a country in union with the UK whereas NI is an artificial state created as the last throw of the dice of a colonial power. SNP must represent their constituents to the best of their ability. For Sinn Fein to take the oath to the queen would legitimise the illegal and undemocratic state which is Northern Ireland.

    25. Scott says:

      My on thoughts are that we would be playing into the hands of Westmonster and as others have said the MSM would have a field day and we all know the lies they tell.
      Better being in the enemy camp and knowing what they are up to.

    26. Capella says:

      I think we activate the Peffers memorandum. The United Kingdom is a union of two kingdoms; Scotland and England. The Scottish MPs walk out of Westminster at the same time as the union is declared annulled. The Scottish Parliament repeals the Treaty of Union.

      This could follow a consultative referendum or an election for Holyrood or Westminster with a manifesto authorising repeal.

      Otherwise the Westminster parliament will continue to act as if it was a UK parliament and carry on ignoring the Scottish MPs whether they are in Westminster or not.

    27. Jock Scot says:

      I think we are doing more damage from within than we could achieve outside.

    28. daideo says:

      I elect an MP to represent me at Parliament (WM or SG) I do not elect them to abstain from any vote or not turn up for any debate or vote. The MP is paid to be to represent their constituency so boycotting WM should not be an option!

    29. H Scott says:

      In any future poll can you please also ask about the monarchy/a republic.

    30. Hamish100 says:

      Colin Alexander says:
      3 February, 2019 at 12:23 pm
      Boycott: no. Serves no purpose.

      Withdraw our MPs so those MPs along with MSPs then declare Holyrood as the parliament representing Scotland’s political sovereignty: yes.

      Very nieve. The day after, Mundell continues as before working with the lib dems and Labour to do Scotland down referring to the 2014 referendum as his mandate to govern on behalf of UK

      Of course CA maybe that is what you want?

    31. we need to be there to show the public what we are up against , also to call out labour mps who vote against scotland

    32. HandandShrimp says:

      The studied and at times patently contrived disdain with which the SNP are treated by the Tories, in particular, with the PM and Ministers walking out when it is the SNP turn to talk almost smacks of a desire for the SNP to follow Sinn Fein and not take up their seats. This would be advantageous to the Tories who could then dispense with the DUP. So it could actually be what the Tories want. They have little respect for anything so disdain for democratic representation is hardly a surprise.

      I have mixed views but on balance the shabby treatment reflects badly on the professionalism of the Tories and Westminster as a whole and that does the SNP and the cause for Scottish independence no harm. That said, Sinn Fein have gone from strength to strength by rejecting Westminster so clearly it is a strategy that can work. I would support the SNP on either path.

    33. K1 says:

      Alan, you make a very good observation, it would indeed tip the balance in the HoC into a full Tory majority without the need for dup support. Do we really want a majority Tory government with our SNP MP’s in effect relinquishing their seats to more Scottish Tories and a handful of Labour twats representing Scotland?

      I feel sure this would be the inevitable outcome.

      Think our focus needs to stay on Indyref2 at this moment, also I’m fairly certain this will have been discussed within SNP itself and seen as the no goer that it is. That last walkout was spontaneous, unplanned, if they started threatening this it would lose its effect and be seen rightly as a pr exercise and if our MP’s didn’t see it through to full blown permanent walkout. My feeling is they would lose support at home.

    34. Jason King says:

      You need to remember that there is history of rejecting Westminster in Ireland. It is how Ireland became independent, Sinn Fien won the vast majority of MPs in the 1918 General Election and as per their manifesto they withdrew their MPs from London and declared independece and set up the First Dail. This was in 1919 and a couple of weeks ago celebrated 100 years. There is no experience or history of Scotland withdrawing their MPs

    35. Sandy says:

      It is an awful job we ask our SNP MPs to do, to stand up and get jeered and sneered at day after day.

      On the other hand their dignity and stoicism in the face of the abuse they receive is providing wagon loads of ammunition for the indy cause.

      They are pictured again and again talking calmly and sensibly, trying to stand up for Scotland while the oiks of Westminster try to silence them with abuse.

      Hats off to our SNP team for not walking out, I know I would not be able to manage it.

    36. ben madigan says:

      to refuse to take their seats in Westminster like SF does, SNP MPs would need to be voted in on an abstentionist ticket – which means “abstentionism” being discussed as a policy/strategy/tactic in SNP branches, a motion supporting abstentionism being prepared for the next SNP Conference and Conference passing that motion.

      Until that time, SNP MPs should stay as they have been voted in on the understanding they would be present in Westminster – whatever they manage to achieve there and whatever they have to put up with in terms of jeers, bullying, ostracism etc.

      Walk-outs are understandable when things go too far. Whether a walk-out becomes permanent for the rest of the legislature will depend on whatever support is manifested for it by the Govt and people of Scotland

    37. Jimmy the Pict says:

      There will be a time for a walk in the near future, once Brexit has happened (probably a NoDeal Crash Out blamed on the EU) and PM refuses Section 30 order again.

    38. Lennie says:

      And have our voice silenced even more? That would suit the unionists just fine.

      No, I’m for them to continue to highlight how they are ridiculed, ignored and insulted in Westminster, it helps highlight to the people of Scotland just how their voice in the so called “union” is impotent and worthless and how the whole concept of “a union” is just a colonial sham.

    39. Elizabeth says:

      I would love our MPs to walk out but with our media, it would mean we would have even less coverage of Scotland’s different approach than we do now. At least those who are interested can see, in the set-up we have, how the SNP MPs are abused, maligned and ignored at Westminster as they try to fight Scotland’s corner. I can only see Labour and Tory in collusion with their pals in the BBC and print media having it all their own way and they would always use it against us. No SNP voices to disturb their cosy set up at Westminster? It would be all their Christmases coming at once! Northern Ireland with only the DUP to speak for them in Westminster is a lesson!

    40. Colin Alexander says:

      Hamish100 said:

      “referring to the 2014 referendum as his mandate to govern on behalf of UK”.

      I could explain about the Scottish Parliament immediately holding a sovereignty referendum, on ratifying Holyrood as representing Scotland’s sovereignty, forcing the unionists to not only campaign for the union but to also campaign for Westminster rule and House of Lords rule.

      But, I would be wasting my time for as long as the SNP prefer their “Strong Voice At Westminster” policy: eg, Ian Blackford shouting over the jeers and taunts; and MSPs wasting their time and air miles going to beg the unelected Lords for favours about respecting Scottish democracy.

      As for Indyref, you have just highlighted how unfair indyrefs are. The colonialist don’t have to campaign FOR the union, for undemocratic rule of Lords, they just discredit independence with Project Fear scare stories and other lies.

    41. EricS says:

      It shouldn’t go un-noted that there are two Houses at Westminster (Commons and Lords). The SNP already boycott one of these out of principal.

    42. Marie Clark says:

      The heart says, yes, just walk away and leave them to it. The head most definitely says no, and as Alan @ 12.14 points out, at the moment it wold leave the Tories with a majority to do what they like. You can bet your boots that, that wold not be in Scotland’s interest.

      No, they are doing sterling work on our behalf. As someone else pointed out,” I think that they are working to a plan, I just wish I knew what it was”. Exactly so.

      Courage mon braves.

    43. Philip Allan says:

      Personally, I’d like to see the SNP MPs boycotting Westminster. But only after officially notifying Treason May of their intention to implement IndyRef2.

      If Treason May says “now is not the time” yet again, our Representatives should immediately get to their feet and walk out, never to return.

    44. Peter A Bell says:

      I would support the withdrawal of SNP MPs from Westminster in the context of a National Assembly of all Scotland’s nationally elected representatives called for the purpose of dissolving the Union.

    45. Marcia says:

      The public are seeing more of the SNP MP’s in this parliament as the Tories are in a minority than in the 2015-2017 Parliament when they had 56 seats. They are the brake on the madcap antic of the Tory Government and the Tories don’t like it one bit. They seem normal and articulate compared to Tories and Labour. I would keep them there to get under the Unionist skin.

    46. Artyhetty says:

      Hmm, it’s a difficult one. Not sure not having our SNP MP’s taking their seats would do us any good at all. More importantly, and it’s hard for them because they are verbally abused on a regular basis, but them being there annoys the hell out of the Britnats of all parties! The Britnats hate the SNP having a voice, anywhere, on anything.

      If SNP MP’s stayed at home, the bakers dozen would not hold back their glee and my god would they be given a platform at the BBC as if they were the party of governance in Scotland, representing Scotland. They do not represent Scotland, their nasty politics is abhorrent to most people in Scotland.

      For now, keep SNP MP’s at WM, they are the thistle in the side of the Britnats, they are sharp, astute and represent Scottish interests, unlike their Britnat counterparts, who work against Scottish interests.

    47. Ghillie says:

      Our SNP MPs should continue to represent Scotland’s interests in Westminster by continuing to promote the progress of Scotland’s Independence and continue to make their presence felt because:

      Out of sight is out of mind.

      Their very presence and especially their voice raises blood pressure right around the house. That’s good =)

      Our representatives are having so much fun.

      And they are so much fun to watch 🙂

      Westminster is a den of thieves at the best of times. Someone has to set a good example.

      The SNP give hope to the good people of England that a decent kind of politician is possible.

      I want them to be there.

      And all the stuff you said Rev Stu =)

    48. Jim Arnott says:

      The behaviour of Unionist politicians at Westminister is doing nothing but good for the cause of independence. It would be political folly to withdraw our MP’s. Let the braying, sneering etc continue – it will only bring independence closer.

    49. Cath says:

      I’m on the fence with this, and can see both sides.

      However, there is one situation in which I definitely think the SNP should walk out (perhaps many more than one, but one which may occur in the next few weeks and springs to mind anyway). And that is if Labour and the Tories, either by design or accident, take us to a precipice point on Brexit where it’s either May’s deal or no deal, and there is no obvious majority for either. In that case, it’s possible the SNP could hold the balance of power. That would put them in a position where they can be unfairly blamed by all sides in England for whatever disaster happens, be that no deal, or anger at May’s deal. You can just see the howling and media going along with it already – “SNP push UK into No Deal!” perhaps being the most damaging outcome. Both Labour and Tory will be looking for scapegoats for their idiotic Brexit stances: the EU and Scotland will be it.

      They could simply abstain from the HoC benches, but that wouldn’t help much, as they could still be blamed for abstaining. If they’re put in that situation, they should walk and have no truck with any part of it, on the grounds that Scotland voted against any Brexit and they won’t take part in a vote that doesn’t have that as an option. It could be a temporary walk out, or more permanent, or something in between. But if it happens, that decision should be laid firmly, very publicly, very angrily at the feet of English MPs and any Scottish ones daft enough to participate.

    50. Ahundredthidiot says:

      No, but nothing wrong with stirring up a buzz that they might

      The SNP would get more attention from MSM (could even go ‘no comment’ on them to really wind them up)

      Then go full Trump on the media (even tho Stu started it, but we can just blame a big boy did it and ran away)

    51. Proud Cybernat says:

      Not for a boycott at all. We need to be right in their faces. We need to expose that corrupt place every chance we get to show the people of Scotland just how rotten a place the UK actually is. Just look at the amazing work of Joanna Cherry, exposing the ferry corruption.

      We might not be able to force much at WM as Scotland is outnumbered there 10:1 but our representatives there can make themselves right pains in the arse, so much so that the braying mob in that cesspit will eventually actually welcome the idea of Scotland getting TF out of that midden and becoming and independent state.

    52. jfngw says:

      Currently they are stopping the Tories doing what they want and it keeps those same Tories under DUP control (not a good thing but exposes them as complete charlatans willing to deal with anyone to stay in power).

      It could be different if there was another election and one party had a majority. If the SNP again take the majority of seats then it could be a worthwhile exercise to highlight the democratic deficit in Scotland.

      If in any election independence parties achieve more than 50% of the vote, I don’t want a referendum but a declaration that we are rescinding the Treat of Union on behalf of the sovereign Scots, as long as this is made clear prior to the election.

      ‘Stronger for Scotland’ is meaningless when WM can change our powers at a snap of its fingers. I want any election manifesto to be based on Independence for Scotland.

    53. Hamish100 says:

      A WALKOUT for any effect (AND THAT WOULD BE LIMITED) would require ALL Scottish Mp’s to agree. It will not happen. Lib -dems, Labour and tories will stick to the british nationalist supremacy line. Can you imagine wullie rennies face lighten up trying to claim some sort of moral high ground at Holyrood?

      To prevent SNP MP’s attending Westminster requires Independence. We don’t need sein feinn’s slight of hand to divert attention from their goal of a United Ireland.

    54. Calum McKay says:

      brexit has exposed westminster. brexit is being imposed on Scotland against the wishes of the people and our elected representatives. Moreover, Scotland is being completely ignored. This is not being done subtly, it’s being done as to rub the noses of SNP in the dirt to the glee of harden unionists.

      Ms McDonald has a point, what is the point of electing representatives who seek to end Scotland’s union with England to attend a parliament that will fight tooth and nail to keep Scotland in that union. They, unionists win the numbers game aided by press and state broadcaster.

      westminster nor the uk serve Scotland, never have, never will!

    55. Artyhetty says:

      O/T sorry

      Did you all see Angus Robertson’s new website? Looks good.

    56. McBoxheid says:

      Is there a word cont limit on here? I just finished writing a reply in support of keeping them at Westminster and all of the reasons I think that they shouls stay. Unfortunately it just dissappeared into the ether.

      I’ll shorten it.

      Grounds for staying:

      The disrespect and abuse that the SNP get is on public record. That can be used at election/referendum time.

      Their presence shows up the Labour Party for how useless/complicit it is.

      A comparison of the two parliaments shows how archaic westminster really is. If no one turned up it would not be in the public eye as much.

      Another comparison between the parliaments show how useless, conniving and anti democratic and anti Scottish the British parties in Scotland really are and that the non Britnat onion parties are really the only ones that stand up for Scotland.

      There was more, but I cannae mind fit it was.

    57. Dr Jim says:

      If the media in Scotland did an unbiased job of actual journalism Scotland would already be Independent and we wouldn’t have to worry about this stuff

      If there’s any real boycotting needing done it should be of Scotland’s media and businesses like Tesco, Morrisons and others who not only support the Union but actively engage in detracting from Scotland and openly opposing any advancement of Scotland

      You’d think supermarkets and the like would at least try to remain neutral on constitutional issues in order to sell to the entire electorate, and it just shows how much some of them don’t even care, because they don’t believe people have the will to keep up a boycott

      Well I do, and I do

    58. jfngw says:

      Of course the BritNat MP’s from Scotland will still attend. Under the illusion that they are equal at Westminster, when we all know many of the highest offices of the UK state are now pretty much unachievable to Scotland’s second class MP’s. And even if they reach these dizzy heights they could not vote on many of their own policies (well they could vote but it would be ignored, many Tory MP’s already have had their proud votes dispensed with in this manner, it doesn’t phase them though, just the honour of sharing the lobby is enough to satisfy their egos).

      And if they stay in line, returning money to WM is a known route, then the glory of ermine may be just a short step away.

    59. Golfnut says:

      @ Cath.

      A very good point, and that may well be part of their planned strategy. The SNP have/are repeatedly blamed for the fall of the Callaghan Labour government, they weren’t, that was down to Labour. However the SNP need to make it clear why they won’t attend the vote, a temporary walkout at the point of voting clearly stating why. Brexit is Westminsters mess.

    60. Scottish Steve says:

      I understand why some think it would be a good idea for the SNP to boycott Westminster. We are outnumbered by MPs from the rest of the UK and our representatives are derided and abused. However, if the SNP did do this, the unionist media would screech that the SNP are abdicating their responsibility to their constituents and would use it as a way to persuade people to vote for their parties instead.

      Moreover, the SNP often say theirs is a strong voice for Scotland. They aren’t just lost in the sea of MPs as voter fodder like unionist MPs. While we are outnumbered, the way in which SNP MPs vote against nasty Westminster policies makes an important statement. It shows that Scotland is a different political animal from the rest of the UK. And it shows SNP MPs care about their country and their constituents enough to vote against such policies, even if it’s futile due to numbers.

      My third and final point is that I think Sinn Fein has more legitimate reasons for boycotting Westminster. They view it as a foreign parliament with no rightful jurisdiction over Northern Ireland. They also refuse to swear allegiance to a foreign monarch. Don’t get me wrong. I also see Westminster as a foreign parliament and Scotland is indeed a separate country from England. But since we share the same island, sharing the same parliament holds more legitimacy for some Scots. And let’s not forget that the first step to union happened because a Scottish king too the English throne. While Scotland does have a history of suffering under various Westminster dictats, it does not share the same violent oppression and brutality that Ireland suffered under British rule. Hell, many Scots were active participants in this oppression and brutality.

      I can see both sides of the argument but generally, I’d prefer the SNP to keep taking their Westminster seats. Until we leave the UK, we’ve got to play the game. It’s up to Scots as to whether or not we walk away from it.

    61. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Here’s the Twitter poll I put up last week.

      Q: ‘Do you feel SNP MPs should leave the Commons?’

      Yes 62%
      No 8%
      Not yet 30%

      Number of votes: 3,386

      It’d be interesting to compare those results with a ‘real’ poll.

    62. mumsyhugs says:

      Much as it goes against the grain, I think it would be a mistake to withdraw from the stinking sewer that is Westminster. These amazing folks who suffer on our behalf have to show everyone of all political persuasions that they’re doing what they – and indeed Nicola at Holyrood – were elected to do ie get on with the day job. They are setting a magnificent example of how the job of representing all their constituents and their country should be done and I suspect are gathering support and respect through their efforts.

    63. Capella says:

      Does anyone else find it impossible to see Mary Lou MacDonald without hearing the catchy 1961 Ricky Nelson hit “Hello Mary Lou” playing in background?

    64. Baheid58 says:

      The walkout in June 18 over the power grab was/is the most effective way for any SNP protest in Westminster.

    65. Luigi says:

      I think the SNP was absolutely right to take up their seats and take the fight to WM. Some of the work of Joanna Cherry and others has been genius. You could argue they have been unsuccessful and jeered at every step, but here’s they thing:

      The purpose of a big SNP contingent is NOT to introduce successful bills and influence legislation. No No No. With 37 MPs out of 600 (and the Wlllie Bain principle), how could they?

      No folks, the main purpose of the SNP MPs is to show up WM as an anti-Scottish institution, and to show the red, blue and yellow tories parties as uncompromising British Nationalist parties. The people of Scotland have been watching- they may not be quite ready to vote YES yet, but they are moving in that direction. The SNP MPs have played a blinder in that regard, and the Brexit debacle has accelerated the process beyond our dreams. The Scottish people need to be fully aware of just how forcefully and consistently WM works against the interests of Scotland. Not so easy to hide now that the majority of Scottish MPs no longer bow to WM (and their parties) on bended knee.

      That said, as some others here implied, there may well be a time for the SNP to walk out of WM (permanently). They have done a great job, but it can only be taken so far. I can see a time not too far off when the best action may be to vacate those green benches. 🙂

    66. Derick fae Yell says:

      Withdraw? Definitely not, just yet

      We need SNP MPs at Westminster for the time when we have exhausted all possible options to obtain a referendum via Holyrood. Those options being the S30 process, a probable Supreme Court case on a consultative referendum, and an absolute majority at Holyrood for an unconditional referendum mandate (which is what got us Indyref1).

      All those exhausted leaves a majority of Scottish MPs to get a referendum, or withdrawal and return home. We’d have to get a big majority of MPs though

    67. Sunshine says:

      I think that all the pros and cons have been well covered in the remarks above. It’s something that maybe needs thought about in the future i.e. some kind of strategy. Mine would be to stay and disrupt in every way, not just by trying to alter a Bill by amendment etc.
      I think we are too near the end game with Brexit and the second referendum, to do any of that now.
      But definitely a guerrilla strategy would be required if, God forbid, we are still there in six months.

    68. Josef Ó Luain says:

      Leaving Westminster in the full glare of the media with trumpets blaring would prove unpopular with many of our socially conservative electorate and is unnecessary. Better, in my opinion, would be the tried-and-tested methods used by the spectacularly successful Fianna Fail party in 1920’s Ireland.(I’m talking about building an unassailable head-of-steam for Scottish Independence here, not attempting to make direct historic parallels with Irish political history.)

      FF made it its business to send reps to every corner of the Free State to talk to voters and present the Party’s case in person at public meetings; from 1926 to the present (unbelievably some might say) that Party has never really been away from the forefront of Irish politics.

      Instead of sitting pointlessly in Westminster, rostered groups of MPs could be out relentlessly touring the length-and-breadth of Scotland on a rolling-basis putting the case for Independence at public meetings and in the media etc.Needless to say: all would return to WM for crucial voting duties. FF used rudimentary transport methods to tour, today we have comfortable coaches and aircraft.

    69. Socrates MacSporran says:

      We have to keep our Scottish MPs at Westminster however I beleive the SNP could be doing more to embarrass the British Nationalists around them by using HoC protocols against them.

      They ought to be insisting that issues such as Brexit which effect both of the nations in the bipartite United Kingdom should be addressed by the Scottish Grand Committee (SGC) to establish the Scottish members’ take on things.

      With the current SNP majority, they would have their way in establishing a Scottish take on the issues – then when as would inevitably happen, the Scottish view is overruled by the English view, they would have additional ammunition to show how we are being treated as a colony.

      Surely, if the SNP could say: X number of motions agreed by the Scottish Grand Committee were subsequently over-ruled by English MPs voting against them, it would make some soft no voters realise how Scotland is being badly treated.

      They have English Votes for English Laws by using the SGC they could show it is also a case of English votes over-ruling Scottish decisions.

    70. Proud Cybernat says:


      Here’s another (current) Twitter poll on this subject. Evenly split at present:

    71. Dorothy Devine says:

      Capella , my first thought too!

      I like what the lady said – while humming along!

    72. Luigi says:

      Much of the groundwork for Irish independence was done by Irish nationalist MPs at WM (before Sinn Fein won all the seats and then refused to take them). It was a long slog for them also, but much work was actually done at WM before the event.

    73. Republicofscotland says:

      I suppose the bottom line is do Westminster SNP MP’s actually have the ability to change policies at Westminster for the better of the people of Scotland, if not, then what’s the point of them being there.

    74. Michael Stuart McCreadie says:

      Withdrawing from Westminster would only be worth doing as a one-off “statement of principle” as part of the next Indy campaign. It would become a major talking point that would open up other conversations. But it would be an all or nothing act that would need timing because once the talking points have petered out, that would be it, and Scotland’s Indy voice would be diminished. Worth it if it helps get Indy across the line, detrimental to Indy if the timing’s off (and beyond Indy if we fail again).

    75. Sunshine says:

      Further to my earlier post, one reason that I could see for withdrawing our MPs would be if Hollyrood were to be neutered or closed down.
      Nothing to loose then.

    76. Douglas says:

      I think they should stay until Independence.
      Although the media try to hide the contempt shown towards our representatives, folks are not stupid and can see it. The British make the case for dissolving the Union every time they open their mouths to bray.
      The SNP MPs seem to have the patience of saints to cope with this abuse.

    77. INDEPENDENT says:

      Slightly off topic.

      I like the idea behind “PROGRESS SCOTLAND.”

      Only I feel it is too soft a slogan.


      sounds far more positive and easier to use statement, when trying to gel the masses.

      i.e. When it is time to Rally the troops of the Independence movement for the big push we will need.

      Thus one statement for the initial discussions, strategic planning stage THEN carried through to the actual end game.

      Implanted in the thoughts and minds from day one to the finishing line. INDEPENDENCE!

    78. msean says:

      They should stay,it is a constant reminder to all who watch when they are ignored and told to f*** off that the UK parliament is unfit for purpose.

    79. msean says:

      Why don’t MPs not get sanctioned for swearing in Parliament anyway?

    80. Confused says:

      Interesting topic for a Sunday post.

      But – NO.

      – and Sinn Fein have their own thing. Learning from others is fine, but don’t mistake someone elses fight for your own.

      The SNP should stay and SHIT THE PLACE UP as much as they can – act like internet “shitlords”, but in real life.

      When you are repeatedly fucked-over by someone – and this is an association you cannot simply dissolve – you stick with them, until the day – they need your help …

      – gaaah … give me my heart pills …

      – what heart pills … ?

      Just think of the trouble Sinn Fein could be doing right now, if they suddenly decided to turn up. I think they have let a principle get in the way of an opportunity.

    81. Alastair says:

      I would be for both Sinn Fein and the SNP to adopt a “Kenny Dalglish” principle. Never letting know if they will be there or where they vote. “Maybe aye, maybe no.” Totally un predictable for max effect.

    82. Arthur Thomson says:

      It is useful that Mary Lou McDonald made the point she did on the Marr show. We don’t have to do anything with it, just leave it in the air.

      Boycotting Westminster makes sense in the context of Ireland but not Scotland. Better to stay and shine a light on the myth of British democracy and the shysters who have hijacked it.

      Just imagine where we would be at if Corbyn and May’s puppets were allowed once again to have unfettered scope to deny the very existence of a Scottish nation. Our SNP MP’s need to be there.

      Undoubtedly there is an existential threat to our country – Scotland – and we need to be avoiding any action which undermines our presence and constant reiteration of our existence. Unfortunately, we don’t have a body of water between our country and its predatory neighbour.

    83. Robert Kerr says:

      Why do we ignore the real reason for SF abstentionism?

      The Oath of Fealty to the Crown!

      Mr Peffers tells us regularly that the Monarch is both the English Monarch and the Scottish Monarch albeit only crowned as one. There was no coronation in Edinburgh as “Queen of Scots”. She was explicitly forbidden to actually touch the Honours of Scotland but did hold the cushion.

      I have twice previously linked to the newsreel available on the internet.

      The Windsor woman won’t live for ever. Then we shall see the constitutional nightmare unfolding.

      The SNP must stay in the HoC and be subjected to the abuse.

      The Yes movement must show these abuses via social media and in person using hand devices such as iPads and smartphones.

    84. yesindyref2 says:

      I think the question could be “what does Sinn Fein achieve by boycotting Westminster, and does anyone notice?”

      And I think the answers are nothing, and no. So applying that to the SNP means that, basically nobody would care if the SNP permanently boycotted Westminster, even in Scotland it would not be an everyday topic of conversation in the steamie, and after a time many would stop voting for MPs that didn’t even turn up for work.

    85. Arbroath1320 says:

      I watched the debate last Tuesday and could not believe what I saw, and heard. I’ve seen Kindergartens for two year olds behave better! In fact it actually got to the point when the Speaker had admonished the Tory for the second time, specifically the Tory front bench, that I thought he was on the verge of starting to throw some Tory MP’s out of the chamber.

      As others have said I truly respect the stamina of our MP’s to go through the shite in the House of Commons days after day. Despite all that is thrown at them they do actually get their points across and hit home hard in the process.

      I admit to being one of those who supports our MP’s walking out of Westminster. I am, like so many others utterly disgusted at the treatment they receive from the totally disgusting Tories specifically but other parties as well. This being said perhaps an alternative to walking out of Westminster could be walking out of the House of Commons. For example at PMQ’s just as Feartie stands up to speak for the first time all the SNP MP’s walk out, when a minister stands up to speak they all walk out etc. I am not suggesting that they do this every PMQ’s but do so in an ad hoc sort of method such that no one in the chamber has a clue “will they or won’t they.”

      As with the time last year when the 35 SNP MP’s all walked out they got massive TV and media coverage I am sure they would get something similar again. When they were “interviewed” by the media afterwards then they could state the case clearly to the media that as Scotland is not respected by Feartie and the other parties in the chamber then they (SNP) do not have to respect the other parties either! If nothing else this sort of action may very well draw attention to the kindergarten behaviour of the unionist MP’s and waken up a lot of people who are still sitting on the fence over independence!

    86. Mark Russell says:

      In normal times, abandoning Westminster would be exploited by the unionist parties for all the reasons you give, but these are far from normal times. What would be a likely outcome is an entrenchment of public opinion south of the border against maintaining the union with Scotland. While Tory and Labour politicians may be desperate to keep their precious union together – a significant portion of the English electorate are far less inclined and would be more than happy to see Scotland independent. We are after all, a terrible burden.

      Should the SNP walk out of Westminster and call for a new referendum, this public sentiment may well prove irresistible.

    87. defo says:

      Scottish steve
      “While Scotland does have a history of suffering under various Westminster dictats, it does not share the same violent oppression and brutality that Ireland suffered under British rule. Hell, many Scots were active participants in this oppression and brutality.”

      Culloden & it’s aftermath?
      “no great loss”of the 51st Highlanders, sacrificed at St Valerie.

    88. Gullaneno4 says:

      Wow we must be winning hearts and minds.

      A family friend who was formally a ‘staunch’ Britnat has now decided that she has had enough and will vote Yes in Indyref2 due to the disgraceful treatment of Scottish MP’s at Westminster and Brexit.
      Like my wife she is English so a word of warning to the extremist SNP supporters. Ca Canny with the anti English stuff, many are on our side.
      I also have English and Welsh relatives who would think seriously about moving to Scotland if Brexit goes sour.

    89. ebreah says:

      Echoing jimnarlene @ 12:15 pm and Dr Jim @ 12:20 pm, SNP MPs must be at Westminster to the bitter end, which I personally think is not too far away anyway. As some of the Wingers here may have read, the glue that binds the Union is almost gone. Brexit has brought the Irish reunification issue to the forefront already. I have a feeling we all here know how to solve it and and the eventually outcome. And if the Irish go, Scotland will definitely too and Wales will possibly be rudely awakened from its slumber. When this moment come, we must make sure our MPs are there so that Westminster cannot screw us.

      For me personally, the Union of 1707 had resulted in the creation of Westminster (UK) parliament. If we were to undo it, it has to be via the the same route. Just imagine SNP MPs able to nofity the Speaker of the dissolution of the Union. That will be the day…

    90. Colin Stuart says:

      On balance, probably better to attend than boycott. Any Scot seeing and hearing an SNP MP speak is exposed, over time, to the evidence that our MPs speak with reason and passion (particularly but not exclusively Mhari Black), and present Scotland’s case within the present corrupt Parliament with lucid coherence that contrasts emphatically with the hidebound, delusional nonsense being touted by Tory and Labour alike. The venom our MPs evoke is itself evidence that their case is stinging the two dinosaur parties where it hurts, and that they have no answer to offer us but foul, juvenile abuse.

    91. ben madigan says:

      @Confused who says:”Just think of the trouble Sinn Fein could be doing right now, if they suddenly decided to turn up”.

      Some points to remember:
      Apart from their Irish Republican principles, SF wants no British interference in Ireland and reciprocally, has no desire to interfere in the out-workings of the British parliament and state

      Brexit is not an Irish issue.The UK voted Brexit. It’s a UK vs EU issue. Ireland as a member state stands with the EU. SF (and ireland as a whole) has no role to play in Westminster’s decisions over Brexit.

      Furthermore, SF seats are too few in number to make any difference. If the 30+ SNP MPs have little or no effect, what impact could 7 or 8 SF MPs have?

      Hypothetically speaking: If the SF voting pattern did have an impact at Westminster, thwarting the desires of the majority of English MPs, can you imagine their rage?
      Can you envisage the outpouring of that rage upon Ireland, north and South?

    92. Legerwood says:

      Nissan have confirmed they will not be building the X-Trail in Sunderland. Uncertainty caused by Brexit cited as a factor.

      I am very strongly of the opinion that the SNP MPs stay put.

      They do take a barracking but get their points across and on the record as well as providing footage for circulation via social media to a much wider audience than the anoraks who watch the Parliament Channel.

      All of this serves to demonstrate to the people of Scotland the deficit that exists within the HoC where Scotland and its legitimate interests are concerned.

      Also the MPs are active, and effective members of the various Committees of the HoC. For example, Joanna Cherry skewering of a Government minister a week or so ago.

      Then there are the contributions of individual members such as Alison Thewlis and Mhairi Black. The issues they have highlighted and fought for, often while the Unionists sit on their hands, are important for women across the UK. As such the fact the SNP are fighting for them gives the lie to those who try to paint the SNP as anti-English.

      The presence of the SNP MPs in Westminster is hugely important in so many ways for the people of Scotland and the cause of independence. As others have pointed out their absence would leave the Tories with a comfortable majority.

      They have to be there.

      No one else will speak for Scotland in that place.

    93. galamcennalath says:

      Any truth to the rumour all TVs sold post Brexit will have no remote control? Allegedly, it’s one part of a campaign to reinforce the message that the UKOK has gone back to its pre-EU membership state.

    94. Andy Anderson says:

      I can see both sides. A few days ago I posted this on the WDG blog.

      The Respect Agenda: Westminster 29 March 2019

      Speaker: “I call Mr Ian Blackford”

      IB: “Mr Speaker I speak to you today, and to this House, with a huge measure of regret that the gross incompetence of this Government has today caused the UK to crash out of the EU without a Deal of any kind. We in Scotland have never before seen such incompetence and mal-administration in the history of this place. In Scotland we have become used to broken promises, every promise made to us for the 2014 referendum has been broken. Then we come to Brexit, an event that would not have happened had it not been for infighting within the Conservative party and a significant error made by Mr David Cameron to keep his party together”.

      “After the Prime Minister initiated Article 50 in March 2017 she had already rejected a proposal by the Scottish First Minister dated December 2016 where we proactively put forward an option for Brexit. That was rejected out of hand and never discussed. There was then a farce as the Government appeared to have meetings with the devolved administrations every two or three months. It should be noted that on one occasion no Government Minister attended. None of our requests made to the Government are in the negotiated EU withdrawal Bill. There has never been an attempt to get a cohesive ‘buy in’ with the parties in this House or the devolved administrations”.

      “During many debates in this House, my party is regularly insulted and ignored despite being active in a conscientious way with the business of this House”.

      “Mr Speaker away back in 2014 the people of Scotland were promised that we were to be an equal partner in the UK. This has not happened. Nearly everything the Scottish Government tries to support, amend or enact is rejected. Where is the respect in our democracy, where is the respect within this House for Scotland and its people. Mr Speaker it is with regret that today, on this fateful day for this land, that the SNP members of this House will today depart and will not return. We have tried to work progressively without respect in this sham of a Union, this sham for democracy. Goodbye”.

    95. Joannie says:

      I fully support SF’s abstentionist policy for Westminster, but I don’t think the SNP should follow suit unless they stand for election at the next GE on a platform of abstaining from Westminster. Same for Plaid Cymru.

      In fact if the SNP and PC got together and became abstentionist at the same time that would be even better.

    96. orri says:

      The Oath of Fealty to the Crown for a Scot or representative from Scotland should be seen from the point of view of the position of the monarch in Scots Law and her Coronation Oath to rule according to the laws of her various realms.

      In those terms she had given fealty to the people of Scotland which means our representatives swear their oath to us via her.

      That is not true for MPs from the rUK which is why SF will never be in a position to swear such an oath without torturing themselves.

      The existence of that oath is a travesty of democracy and arguably a breech of the right to self determination for those who would end the claims of a parliaments jurisdiction over their locale.

    97. orri says:

      Perjuring not torturing, spellchecker gone mad.

    98. Referendum1707 says:

      It’s a heart v head thing. Re “heart” I’d love to see them stand up tell them where to shove their stinking HoC and walk out for good.

      “Head” then intervenes and says, in much the same way as has been said by apparently the majority above, that they should, for the time being, stay, again for the reasons outlined above. Too many ways in which a permanent SNP boycott could be used against us.

      However they should, while obliged to stay there, use every suitable and appropriate opportunity to delay, disrupt and generally screw up WM procedures and make their presence there as infuriating as possible for the WM regime.

    99. yesindyref2 says:

      @ScottieDog “I do believe they have a plan. Just wish I knew what it was!

      Indeed, but it’s fun guessing 🙂

    100. Bill Purves says:

      The Scottish people should be given a vote to repeal the treaty of union, being 1 of the 2 signatories of the treaty. Make a legal Scottish document, present in the commons and then walk out. The Westminster(English) government would do the same to Scotland if it was to England’s benefit.

    101. stu mac says:

      I know it’s not quite relevant to the current discussion but found this article of interest.

    102. Jim Coll says:

      The direct comparison of Scotland and Ireland is not valid. I am no one’s authority on either Irish or Scottish history. I know enough of Ireland to say that after the 1919(?) elections (for Westminster) they had a huge majority for Irish home rule and used that as the basis of their version of democracy. They did not take their seats in Westminster from that time. The rest is Irish history including partition. Scotland 100 years later faces different circumstances.

    103. Fireproofjim says:

      I just subscribed to Angus Robertson’s new organisation.- – which will research opinion and analyse what is needed to persuade doubters on the benefits of voting Yes.
      Angus is one of the SNP’s stars. He is sure to do the right thing. Let’s get behind him.

    104. Fireproofjim says:

      When Theresa May next says “Now is not the time.” As she will. Then the SNP group in Westminster should walk out.
      Otherwise delay, disrupt and generally let them know we are there.

    105. crazycat says:

      @ stu mac

      Archived version of Herald article:

    106. Janet says:

      A few Parnell moments, necessary to get headlines and generally screw the place up.

      No to House of Lords.

      Commons boycott pointless at this stage.

    107. Patsy Millar says:

      Much and all as I like the symbolism of boycotting Westminster, I’m inclined to agree with those who say that the MSM would totally distort it as they tried to do with the walkout last year. Stay there and be as much of a nuisance as possible; it really gets up their collective noses.

    108. ronnie anderson says:

      ben madigan I have said in the past that i would like to see SF take up their seats ( just to shake things up U understand ) but I well understand SF standing by their principles . SF would be subject to the EVEL rules as are the SNP in other words ignored , ineffectual , & subjected to ridicule like the SNP MPs .

    109. geeo says:

      Both leaving and staying have merits, no doubt about it.

      My feeling is that, if we refuse to engage with WM, then it is an open goal for Labour to state that, “the SNP have aided the Tories to become an effective majority, so better to vote Labour to try get shot of the tories”.

      If we had a fair and balanced Scottish media,a boycott message would be heard, and its reasons explained to the Scottish public.

      But we do not have that, so on balance, a permanent walk out would be counter productive at this time.

      Perhaps, all SNP MP’s standing at Scottish Questions and refusing to sit down when the Speaker choses who to speak next, if that person is a non Scots MP, followed by a point of order about why should an ENGLISH/WELSH/N.IRISH MP have the right to ask a question during SCOTTISH Questions, when Scottish MP’s are subjected to EVEL ?

      Right before PMQ’s as well, so would definitely be noticed by the media waiting on PMQ’s.

    110. Sunniva says:

      No, the MPs have to be there to keep and eye on what Westminster is doing and the committees are apparently useful in holding ministers to account.

    111. geeo says:

      I just have this warm fuzzy feeling for the (coming soon) day Ian Blackford stands up at WM to announce the YES campaign has won the day, and Scots have instructed Scotland is to be an independent country once more, after 312 years of undemocratic Tyranny.

      “We the SNP will today leave this chamber by choice and with a heartfelt pride in the choice of the Scots people, however, the 24 unionist MP’s will be left squirming with embarrassment as they are kicked out this place against their will, unwanted by the national parties they claim to represent.

      Oh the delicious irony indeed”.

      How satisfying would that be !!!

    112. Mary McCabe says:

      I’m strongly against both the strategy of non-attendance (wouldn’t work here as our media would present it as MPS drawing pay without doing their jobs and we’d get ignored even more than we are ignored when we actually attend) and the atrategy of playing the Westminster game (obeying their archaic rules, taking our turn whenever the Speakers deigns to give us it etc).

      What the SNP MPs MUST do (as long as we have a lot of them – may not last forever) is sabotage the workings of Westminster.

      This will work much better, of course, after the Scottish Government has asked for Article 50 and been refused. So the Scottish Government should do that ASAP.


      If the Speaker gives them the chance to speak they should filibuster. Start reading a novel aloud for hours on end. This tactic was used by the Tories against the first (now forgotten) pro- devolution Bill in the mid-70s (they read the London phonebook) and also used by Parnell long ago. I believe the rules have been changed since to make this tactic more difficult but an adapted version should still be possible.

      Whenever the PM stands up to speak, the SNP group should drown her out, chanting slogans loudly e.g. “Scotland’s Voice must be heard!” or “Independence Referendum! Independence Referendum!”

      If the Speaker throws them out and bans them that’s all the more (world?) publicity. The media would call it childish but that’s far better than being ignored.

      If he doesn’t throw them out they should stage frequent walkouts. When they did their walkout recently SNP membership soared.

      They will still be there on the green benches to act as advocates for the few individual cases (immigration, benefits etc.) which have come up against the reserved powers.

      As for the non-individual reserved powers (defence, the EU, foreign affairs, energy etc) the Scottish voice is ignored anyway when we play within the rules. So we should play outside them.

      That’s how we can make full use of our MPS down in Westminster.

      As long as these politicians themselves really are still aiming at “settling up” with the UK Government rather than “settling down” into it.

      Are they?

    113. McBoxheid says:

      Would EVEL have happened if the SNP refused to take their seats? By being there they are forcing the English to make policies that are deeply uncomfortable to Scots. That can only help the independence cause.

    114. David Heriot says:

      Just flicking through the comments here, I’d say a majority say stay – unless there’s a good reason to boycott. Boycotting the HoC needs to achieve something. And like some others here, I’d say that that something needs to be related to the dissolution of the Union, invoking the Claim Of Right.

      Being so close to Brexit of course, brings other issues for the SNP contingent. Do they stay and vote for May’s deal to ‘save England from itself’ (and thereby triggering the Manifesto’s material change)? Or, as someone suggested, boycott it at that point, and leave them to vote on the final Brexit deal/no-deal question on their own?

      Finally, I can’t imagine that walking out permanently from the HoC isn’t part of the indy2 strategy. And a boycott at that point, for that reason, is surely something I’d support.

    115. Shinty says:

      I believe the time for SNP MP’s to march out, will come soon enough.

      And, what a glorious day that will be.

    116. Abulhaq says:

      Caught the latest British Airways ad.? Not one Scottish/Welsh voice or cultural reference.
      Time we did walk away from this vile, oppressive thing.

    117. wull2 says:

      My opinion today.

      All the SNP members should be there on Scottish questions and PM questions only, to ask a few questions.

      I particularly like the suggestion from another winger.

      All SNP MP’s standing at Scottish Questions and refusing to sit down when the Speaker choses who to speak next, if that person is a non Scots MP.

    118. Tex Thomson says:

      The Yes movement to a man, needs to start a Refùse Consent To Be Governed By Westminster movement, then charge the Scottish government with dissolving the union.2 million signatures would negate the need for polling g.

    119. Luigi says:

      The general consensus here seems to be for the SNP MPs to remain at WM (for the time being), but to be as cleverly disruptive as possible and create merry hell with the archaic WM system. Use their ridiculous rules and regulations against em. The recent walkout by the SNP was a good demonstration of this – it all came about because WM refused to abide by their own rules (cos it didn’t suit). More of the same please. 🙂

    120. McBoxheid says:

      I don’t believe the SNP should try to disrupt just to get up noses. They should represent Scotland and consider the effects on Scotland for everything the tories try and pass, amend everything that is bad for Scotland and protest every little detraction in the strongest possible way.

      Gloves off. By backing the people of Scotland to the hilt and to protest every tiny thing by protesting to the speaker for every sleight, it puts everything on record that was said or done and the protestations reinforce the record that disrespecting an equal member of the union is also disrespecting Scotland and the union. As I said before, this disrespect is very easily shown on mobile devices during elections or referendums in the future.

    121. velofello says:

      Our SNP MPs must attend Westminster.Yes they are subjected to bullying behaviour and I truly respect them for their forbearance, and they have delivered some outstanding speeches.

      Mary Lou McDonald did us a service on the Marr show by referring to the treatment our SNP MPs are subjected to. Note also just how determined was Speaker Bercow this past week to silence the Tory oafs, even referring to their front bench behaviour.

      And May walking out of the chamber when Ian Blackford rises to speak is pure publicity gold for us. The third largest political party by membership, a Scotland vital to the UK, and that fool walks out of the chamber, and so insulting us.

    122. Clootie says:

      We gift the Unionists a PR victory if we fail to turn up. Very like the EU case that you have to be in it to change it for the better. Westminster Parties (all shades of Tory) have “borrowed” SNP polices and that helps move things forward for everyone.

      The Ghandi non-cooperation and many other models also exist but I wouldn’t support those either at present.

      I want Independence by a political expression by the people. Although I fully respect and admire the stance of Sinn Fein it is not the model I would adopt for Scotland

    123. Athanasius says:

      I don’t think it’ll work. Abstention is fine in the context of the physical force tradition, even when that tradition is — at least for the moment — in abeyance. The fact that it’s there, in the atmosphere, is what gives abstention its edge. There is no such tradition in modern Scottish nationalism.

    124. ronnie anderson says:

      O/T .

      Theres something in the WATTER doon in Sunderland , knowing there will be 1000s job loses at Nissan & Supply chain some people will support a No Deal Brexit .

    125. ScotsRenewables says:

      Fireproofjim says:
      3 February, 2019 at 3:57 pm
      I just subscribed to Angus Robertson’s new organisation.- – which will research opinion and analyse what is needed to persuade doubters on the benefits of voting Yes.
      Angus is one of the SNP’s stars. He is sure to do the right thing. Let’s get behind him.

      I quite agree. I subscribed as well.

    126. K1 says:

      A clip with May walking out when Ian Blackford speaks, if it’s available…with the heading “Tories Turning Their Backs On Scotland” would go down a treat 🙂

    127. Not a member, so they can do as they please, imho. But with our media, they would be slaughtered, and without fair redress.
      And the same would go for any forum set up in the aftermath of any withdrawal. It would not be covered, at least not fairly, and would have no legitimacy without it being a manifesto commitment. The best chance for any boycott was with all but 3 MPs, but even then, on a minority of votes.
      So they have to stay, using Erskine May to the best effect they can.
      Sinn Fein are in a different position entirely, and I don’t think there is a robust Republicanism among our MPs.

    128. Jock McDonnell says:

      Hmm, re progress Scotland:

      ‘head of research is Mark Diffley’

    129. My feeling is that you should be there to voice your opinion if you don’t like what is happening.

      If you’re shouted down it just re-enforces your case.

      By all means walk out as a react to some insult but I don;t think the Scottish people would appreciate it if we just put our coats on and headed for Euston station.

      Plus, and this is quite important, (T)Ruthless and her band of merry men, plus the other Unionist parties have threatened to boycott an Indy ref . If they do they may be chastised for it but if we have already boycotted WM then we cannot complain, nor claim victory, if they boycott an Indy ref and we win as a result.

    130. Sarah says:

      Re Angus Robertson’s project, I really don’t think we need any more analysis or programmes of research to see why people voted No. What we need is a declaration right now of a vote on Scotland’s status [Should a country govern itself?] to be held soon.

      As Scot goes Pop has pointed out, there will be no move in the polls until there is a date for a vote – that is when voters will start to concentrate on the issues.

      It can be a far shorter campaign than last time. Then it was a new idea and now it is standard. It will help if the EU citizens are still here and eligible to vote.

      But I think the dangers of delaying – dark money, online targeting, dirty tactics, plus the further damage to people on benefits and people targeted by the Home Office – are too great to risk. Let’s ask at the ballot box what people think. We nearly won last time. I’m sure we would win if asked today.

    131. Scott says:

      This would be used against the snp, exactly the excuse they would need to be able to point the finger at the sno for trying to create as much chaos as possible, and using Brexit to their advantage. It’s much better for them to carry on what they are doing, trying at every single step to delay avoid or mitigate Brexit effect on Scotland, then at the end of the day the SNP can say they tried every single option to try and come to some sort of compromise but clear to everyone still at the end if the da they were treated with utter contempt and every single step they took. THEN we can say, look, this is why being in the u ion does not work for Scotland. Bye bye ?

    132. Giving Goose says:

      SNP energies should be used to attack lies and smears.

      Every chance in front of the camera should be a chance to point out bias and propaganda.

      The media are no friends of Scotland. Turn the opportunities against them.

    133. geeo says:

      @meg merrilees.

      “(T)Ruthless and her band of merry men, plus the other Unionist parties have threatened to boycott an Indy ref . If they do they may be chastised for it but if we have already boycotted WM then we cannot complain, nor claim victory, if they boycott an Indy ref and we win as a result”

      Simply cannot agree with that.

      No matter what the SNP group do at WM, it absolutely does not relate nor set any precedent whatsover for the voracity of a legally madated indyref of the legally sovereign people of Scotland.

      The 2 things are wholly unrelated.

    134. jezza says:

      Treeza May never actually says she will “never” grant a section 30 order.

      She plays with words because in the end she knows she will have to grant it in the very near future.

      Her get out is saying things like “now is not the time”, which gets her off the hook in the short term.

    135. geeo says:

      Velofello 5.45pm.

      You surely mean SNP are 2nd biggest party by membership ?

      Rest of post spot on.

    136. geeo says:

      Lets just end this “now is not the time” pash patter.



      3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.


      Looks like “now IS the time”, to me.

    137. Liz g says:

      I think they should stay too…. For Now
      The next time they walk out it should be over ending the Treaty and it should be for good.
      Having said that they should,as soon as a Section 30 is requested,be as disruptive as possible.
      Just like the media thought they were going to be back in 2015.
      After the Yes vote is in then……
      They should do their upmost to prevent the commons getting anything done to demonstrate that Westminster needs to negotiate the separation of the two kingdom’s resources fast!

    138. Peter Macbeastie says:

      Like the Rev, I don’t really have a position on this as such, except for the fact I’d like them to walk out if only to see the footage of the disarray the unionist parties would be in through the immediate aftermath. For a start they wouldn’t believe the SNP would choose such a radical course, and frankly I’m with them on that; the one time the SNP stood up and walked out it caused them absolute consternation immediately and their response ‘it’s just a coordinated stunt’ should have got a ‘no shit, Sherlock’ kind of response. Of course it was a stunt, and it absolutely worked. And they should do it all the time, and they should operate the Parnell method of playing them at their own game to your own advantage.

      Yes, they’d be open to the accusation of not representing their constituents but, as you say, that’s a functional impossibility anyway when nothing they say, not even when all the other Scottish MP are of a common mind (which is so rare it should be under twenty four hour guard in a secure location, sadly) is taken seriously let alone acted upon.

      Had they placed it in a manifesto and made it clear that being consistently ignored and belittled was unacceptable then they could say the constituents voted for them on that basis, but they didn’t, so they’d get hammered for it.

      Mostly the primary reason I can’t see this happening is the absolutely obvious point that the SNP under Nicola Sturgeon will do nothing even remotely that radical or risky. The most risky option taken in her tenure to date has been asking (I mean, there’s the problem, really, asking) for permission to hold a referendum.

      And they said NO.

      And what did the SNP or the Scottish Government do? Nothing. Bar a few angry comments and some press column inches, sod all was done in response except to go back to Holyrood and forget about it for another few years.

      I personally don’t think that’s good enough, but in the absence of any other viable political option for independence I’ll continue as a SNP member and voter regardless in the hope that they’ll eventually do what we all bloody want.

      Because there’s sod all else to be done.

    139. jezza says:

      Ronnie Anderson

      It does get you thinking why Sunderland would vote by a huge margin to leave the EU.

      Nissan warned them that if we voted to leave there was a good chance they would upticks and leave the UK.

      Sunderland is one of the most deprived areas of England and I think they voted the way they did as a massive protest vote against the rich south east and the banking sector.

      They see all the wealth staying in the south east and add to that they see immigrants coming in and taking what few jobs there are,,,,which added to them thinking that it can’t be any worse outside the EU,,,so fuck it, lets leave.

      In a way it is their Independence vote.

    140. Joannie says:

      A more constructive independence vote for the English would be to chuck the Tories out of office. Leaving the EU isn’t going to help with their problems.

    141. Muscleguy says:

      Judging by the non effect (on the parliament and the media) of the mass walkout when we were ignored and not allowed to comment on a Scottish matter I think it would have no good or lasting effect if we were there or not.

      I could see one upside though, SNP MPs of a Republican (in the non NI sense) bent would no longer have to cross their metaphorical fingers when swearing the oath promising allegiance to Brenda and all who splurged from her.

      When I took out naturalised NZ citizenship I was taken to a small room where a photo of Brenda hung on thew wall and had to swear allegiance to both NZ and her and all who splurged from her. I literally had my fingers crossed, the ones the person instructing me could not see.

      Though I cannot see how a democracy can tie ones hands on that matter. If by doing so I am not subsequently free to argue and campaign for a republic then it is not a democracy but a monarchic dictatorship of a sort supposedly abolished by the Civil War and the Dutch Invasion, sorry ‘Glorious Revolution’. Though the Glencoe Massacre happened under William and Mary so perhaps I should look to the Bill of Rights instead?

    142. Joannie says:

      @ Everybody

      Someone has started a petition to get the Republic of Ireland to rejoin the UK. Apparently if the petition reaches 100,000 they have to debate it in Parliament. So if anyone fancies signing it just for the entertainment value of watching MPs debate it, the link’s here.

    143. starlaw says:

      I hope everyone is aware that a section 30 order would allow Westminster to run the referendum… Do you really want to go there. I’m sure SNP are playing the long game and we are nearly at an end. Next referendum will be run by ourselves or the UN.

    144. Effijy says:

      Westminster and the U.K. Media, headed by the BBC, attack
      Scotlandtd at every opportunity.

      Anyone connected with SNP has their character assasinated.

      I read in the Daily Hail today that Shnow White has joined SNP!

      They go on to say that she had been holding captive some vertically challenged
      Young men and forcing them into hard labour in mines deep in the earth!

      One young man, Grumpy, stated that they work all day and get no pay.

      Another has developed a sever allergy due to dust in the mines and Sneezes frequently.
      It’s so bad he has to see Doc every day.

      The work is so hard one of them is constantly Sleepy, and his friend has
      Lost all confidence and now too Bashfull to speak.

      Only one of the 7 appears to be doing OK and Confirmed that he
      Voted for Murdo Fraser and the Tories at the last election!
      We hope to tell you more about his exploits when Dopy finishes his shift.

      Our link to the last of the 7 failed due to the poor reception in the mines.
      We understand from a trusted source his name is Un Happy!

    145. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Withdrawing our MPs would only be a symbolic gesture of anger and within a short time no body else would be interested as to whether the SNP were there or not. Business would simply continue and any laws or debates would lose the Scottish thorn.

      From another perspective, the SNP MPs are our eyes and ears. They see and hear most of what happens when the cameras are off.
      The SNP HQ needs the input from our much ridiculed but battle hardend reps, strategy and tactics constantly up-dated in a sometimes foggy situation.

      The time for a withdrawel will come, but a real and permanent one.. 😉 🙂

    146. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dr Jim says: 3 February, 2019 at 12:13 pm:

      ” … And they laugh at and mock Scotland every time they do it
      If the SNP are to remain in the HOC perhaps doing the same to the opposition instead of engaging with them in debate and subjecting themselves and us to abuse.

      That, though, Dr Jim, has already been their undoing. The more they are perceived to do so by the Scottish electorate the more of them will be voted against.

      The Holyrood Parliament is becoming more and more seen by the general electorate as being anti-Scottish, pro-England and united as Westminster Establishment lackeys who follow whatever Westminster orders them to do.

      What my old Granny would have described them as glaikit and donnert.

      Speaking of the Scots word, “Donnert”, I was told by a friend from the USA that, “Donnert was an emeritus professor of nuclear engineering at Kansas State University”. Somehow in Scotland Donnert and nuclear engineering do not go together well.

    147. MJack says:

      Might be better to walk out at the start of pmqs and Scottish questions rather than allow them the oxygen to disrespect. Let them just blow hot air between themselves.

    148. Phronesis says:

      Scotland should now understand that it is not an equal partner in the UK, that the threat to Scotland’s institutions and democracy is a domestic one. Scotland the region, protectorate, the colony, the suburb of Lincoln will have no control over the immense damage that Brexit will cause, but Scotland the country will.

      Imagine wanting to support a parliamentary system that will deliberately cause a national shortages of medicines and make the poorest in our society even poorer, building on existing toxic domestic policies that have condemned millions of children and families to hardship.

      ‘The threat to the NHS and our public services has long been a domestic one – it called the Conservative Party. It is now time we put the distractions of Brexit behind us and concentrated on fighting the Conservatives. They’ve brought this country to the brink and its time they now paid the price…the NHS and the economy will not profit from Brexit. Brexit will not deliver the promises it was sold on’

      ‘Draft legislation on Serious Shortage Protocols (SSPs) has been laid before Parliament and should come into force in early February 2019. The protocols, for use in the event of a serious shortage of a medicine, may give community pharmacies the ability to dispense less, give a different strength or pharmaceutical form or provide an alternative product.
      It is envisaged that where serious shortages occur, each medicine would have its own SSP which will need to be developed carefully to ensure that it can be implemented in practice’

      ‘little or no progress has been made across the four nations on reducing child poverty and inequalities.
      Indeed, after a decade of harsh austerity, economic hardship has spiralled in recent years. Following several years of decline, child poverty in the UK has increased year on year since 2011–12. Today, more than 4 million children in the UK—or one in three—live in poverty, an increase of 500?000 in the past 5 years. Strikingly, this rise has been driven almost entirely by the increase in poverty among working families’

    149. Graf Midgehunter says:

      ..withdrawal.. (ya clodhopper..)

    150. Gfaetheblock says:

      Re progress Scotland, I assume that the donations are actually paying Robertson’s and Diffley’s wages. So first £150k – 200k p.a. Donated is basically the wages of two men.

    151. Robert Peffers says:

      @solarflare says: 3 February, 2019 at 12:23 pm:
      … Besides, in many ways at the moment all they have to do is turn up and watch the system around them crumbling anyway without them even having to do that much.”

      I’m sorry to tell you your perception is way off the mark. Statistically the ENP MPs are the hardest working group in the House of Commons.

      Proportionately they attend more to the debates in the chamber and thus have a per capita greater input than any other, Unionist party – and that includes the one in power at the moment.

      When the division bell rings you do not see SNP members trooping in from the bars, eateries, gyms and games rooms. Etc. to vote and then depart again.

      Furthermore it is rare for an SNP MP to abstain in a vote.

    152. Hamish100 says:


      Just a general observation on how better the site is again with the removal of the extreme trolls interrupting the site.

      As with most happy to debate with brexiters and unionists but the past few months has shown how some view this site as their enemy and must be disrupted.

    153. cynicalHighlander says:

      No every time the SNP are interupted by the Tory Braying Donkeys they should just keep calling them that at every opportunity just to rile the speaker who will suspend them for the rest of the day.

      Disrupt x 35 everyday.

    154. Graeme James Borthwick says:

      Simple answer is to walk away when the catcalling starts. The poms certainly would not like that and it would make OOOORRRDDDEEERRR look stupid.

    155. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Hamish100 –

      I was thinking exactly the same thing earlier today. This place has been great the last couple of weeks – a much happier experience altogether.


    156. Bill Hume says:

      I belive they should stay in Westminster as they are a thorn in the side of all who would deny Scotland independence. I stand with them every time the donkeys hee haw and denigrate them. They are doing a job which I would not do. So, to all our representatives in Westminster, a big THANK YOU from someone who could never stand the ordure (hey google it) that is poured on you daily in ‘that place’.

    157. ALANM says:

      I see McKenna has once again been trying to big up the BBC over at the Guardian and has been left totally humiliated in the process. The ground-breaking series which he (and his dad) credited to the BBC was actually produced by Thames tv.

      Got me thinking though – it’s a pity we don’t have independent tv stations like Thames tv or Granada any more.

    158. ScottieDog says:

      If I’m not mistaken, the opposition parties at WM have a budget funded by the U.K. treasury and Fluffy’s budget comes from our block grant.

      We need to continue to use the treairy budget to undermine and expose the WM establishment. Fluffy won’t stop undermining us in the absence of SNP MPs – using our budget.

    159. Graeme says:

      Sometimes you have to stand on your principles Mary Lou described it perfectly, we don’t belong in that fucking cesspit they call a parliament.

      When I see the the waste of oxygen that passes as parliamentarians amongst the British 5th columnists in Holyrood the need to bring home our own politicians (those we elect) has never been greater.

      I’m talking from the heart and not the head, I’m not a political anorak and maybe don’t appreciate the full implications of what I’m saying but that’s how I feel in my soul and I think if put to the test most Scots would agree

      Westminster like it or not is the English parliament, we’re not welcome there and we don’t belong there, Scotland has moved on, lets get to fuck out of there

    160. Robert Louis says:

      I actually think they should withdraw – but for specific demands, such as respecting the wishes of Scotland to stay in the EU.

      It is all very juicy and good fun, when we see a clip of an SNP MP, make Theresa the liar’s time difficult at PMQ’s, or when Ian Blackford makes a great speech. It’s all very good etc…

      BUT, and this really is the killer, it achieves exactly sweet b****r all. Great speeches, tough questions etc, are all great telly, but achieve nothing.

      Those defending SNP MP’s might say, ‘oh, but you know we have put ‘pressure’ on the government on one subject or another’, and that may very well be true. It did however, achieve nothing.

      They will always be outvoted, especially with Labour joining in to jeer the SNP together with their Tory chums.

      I honestly believe they should have been withdrawn the minute Scotland’s vote to stay in the EU was completely ignored. That is simply undemocratic, and by staying in the HoC the SNP lend it credibility. Of course every now and then, the SNP are allowed to make a speech or join a committee or two, but that is how Westminster ‘manages’ difficult parties. Give them a wee say now and then, let them join a committee or two so they can feel ‘involved’ (but always outvoted). And, you know what, sadly, oh so sadly, the SNP have been taken in by it, hook line and sinker.

      Aside from the constant insults, Westminster is just stringing the SNP along, but in reality, the Libdems, Tories and their Labour chums, really could not give a flying f*** what the SNP say in the HoC, no matter how eloquent their speeches.

      No political party with a modicum of self respect would stay in a place that treats them with such utter, utter offensive abusive contempt.

      Sinn Fein have the right policy.

      Meanwhile, why has the indyref not yet been called? Oh that’s right, we’re waiting for over two years, to find just the ‘perfect’ moment, when everything is in our favour. Meanwhile within a few weeks, every Scot will be forcibly stripped of their EU citizenship against their wishes.

    161. Graeme says:

      Personally I think Ian Blackford should table a motion tomorrow that no matter what Scotlands wishes to remain in the EU lock stock & barrel is respected and if voted down (which it will be) we walkout

    162. Ghillie says:

      Robert Louis.

      Simply put.

      You are wrong =)

    163. Gfaetheblock says:

      Worth remembering that the SNP recieve about £800k p.a. in short money from Westminster, Sinn Fein don’t get that due to their Abstentionism.

    164. gus1940 says:

      PQ web site fails to report the Labour Membership numbers fall.

      RE the Buck House evacuation story and reports that The Royals remained there throughout the Blitz my understanding is that while they were in London during the day they buggered off to Windsor every night when the bombing occurred.

    165. Jason King says:

      @Hamish100 says:
      3 February, 2019 at 12:37 pm

      Sinn Feinn- a bit rich to criticise the SNP at Westminster (they have no wish to be there but do get some coverage as to their views)

      You got the wrong end of the stick there

    166. Luigi says:

      Robert Louis,

      I understand the frustration, but a I said previously – the SNP MPs are not there to have bills accepted or any influence on WM decisions.

      They are there simply to show ordinary scots that WM does not respect the wishes of Scotland, WM loves to poke fun at our elected MPs, and WM will never do anything that may benefit Scotland, in fact WM often goes the extra mile to ensyre that Scotland suffers.

      The people are watching. An occasional walk-out is highly effective, IF it highlights any of the above. 🙂

    167. Daisy Walker says:

      I thought Mary Lou dealt with Andrew Marr very well when he dangled the old WM carrot – help lead us Ireland, don’t leave us’ and she said I really don’t think our 6 MP’s would change anything.

      And wasn’t it fun watching Marr squirm as she brought up WM’s treatment of the Scots there… he really couldn’t change the subject quick enough.

      I think if/when the SNP walk out of that parliament – its something they can only do once, all or nothing. And if it doesn’t work, it would count against us.

      I would however like to see them stop playing nice with WM. There are legitimate things they can do, to put a spanner in the works.

      How about carrying out some spot checks for drugs misuse in the Members only toilets, and once they get a positive result it would justify bringing in a drugs dog… at the very next ‘big vote’ in chamber. After all, I do not want law breaking, intoxicated people voting on important matters. They do this for entrance to Nightclubs, so it isn’t as if its never been done before;)

      Wonder how many would call in absent if they did this. It would certainly get publicity, and i rather think the public UK wide would approve.

      Or if that was ‘too far’ how about they volunteer to be breathalysed before entering the chamber and dare the opposition to join in. Call it a health initiative – sober at work. Again timing is everything, so either before a big vote, or before every vote, and keep a note of who does and who doesn’t. If they’re not sober enough to drive, they’re not sober enough to be running the country. Show the buggers up.

      Anyway, just a thought, probably too late now anyway.

      Peace and love to all.

    168. Connor McEwen says:


    169. Luigi says:

      O/T The Loniness of the Indy-supporting Rangers Fan (on Rev’s Twitter):

      Maybe Indy-Gers fans should start a “Me Too” movement lol.

    170. Ghillie says:

      Conner McEwan, aye, but he is wrong pet =)

    171. wull2 says:

      You have to be in it to win it.
      In our case it is independence.

      Another saying, fight from within.

      These sayings must have been said for some reason. YES

    172. Phil says:

      The nagging question is: How would the numbers stac up if the oppositional NI party MP’s did sit in Westminster?

      Their need to swear before The Queen does present a strong rationale for their boycott.

    173. gus1940 says:

      I reckon it would be a big mistake if The SNP MPs abandoned the Swamp by The Thames.

      What they should do is start a campaign of selective walkouts at appropriate but not too frequent times and for the rest of the time disrupt and delay proceedings as much as possible while remaining on the right side of the established rules and Bercow.

      As far as Bercow is concerned we know that the Tories hate him and although he receives much criticism and has annoyed The SNP members on occasion I think that he does an excellent job of controlling the Braying Donkeys.

    174. johnj says:

      Sinn Fein know that a United Ireland will fall into their laps soon anyway so they have no reason to stop the UK from self harming.

      on the other hand we might be about to have a snap election in which the SNP could get 50+ seats and hold the balance of power.

    175. Scottish Steve says:


      Like I said, Scotland has suffered but it’s not as clean cut as England good, Scotland bad. History is always more complicated than that.

    176. Dr Jim says:

      Theresa May, says no to a section 30 order now but it hasn’t been requested yet and if she refuses the Scottish parliament again on a justifiable constitutional issue she may well find herself and her government in breach of UN regulations on the right to self determination to which the UK is a signatory

      The Holyrood parliament is at the moment a devolved legally constituted parliament empowered to control the affairs of Scotland Theresa May can SAY what she likes at the moment because there has been no such request so far but when it comes to the legally sanctioned section 30 request for a second time a UK government refusal to acquiesce will lead them into dangerous territory which at this time in history with the worlds microscope all over them seeing them for the irresponsible lunatics that they are will not bode well for a UK who wants to trade with the rest of the world as trustworthy people which we know they’re not and now the rest of peoples of the world know that too, not just other governments

      The UK media and press actively suppress news towards us the people of the UK but the rest of the worlds press do not, and when you read any of the overseas press it’s astonishing what the *British* media leave out of reporting to us

      Just read the Irish press in regards to UK behaviour it’ll shock you and because I’m a Spanish speaker I read their stuff and in almost every paper the descriptions of the UK are anything from Bouncy castle brains to Victorian Empire Dictators and worse

      The people who are running the UK right now are badly behaved children with power and the ones who do have any brains don’t have any power, and I’m not talking about the numpty Labour party who are just behaving like a bunch of prey robbing hyenas waiting for the lions to finish eating so they can devour the bones

    177. Scottish Steve says:

      Apologies for the typo. I meant to say, it’s not as simple as England bad, Scotland good.

    178. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert Louis says: 3 February, 2019 at 7:59 pm:

      ” … It is all very juicy and good fun, when we see a clip of an SNP MP, make Theresa the liar’s time difficult at PMQ’s, or when Ian Blackford makes a great speech. It’s all very good etc…
      BUT, and this really is the killer, it achieves exactly sweet b****r all.

      And THAT statement, Robert Louis, is exactly bugger all. For starters just what does the inclusion of four wee stars in place of, “ugge”m, achieve?

      You know what you were typing and the reader knows what you were typing is the word, “Bugger, so just a total waste of a perfectly good word.

      ” … Great speeches, tough questions etc, are all great telly, but achieve nothing.”

      And that, Robert Louis is a totally idiotic claim for what it achieves is exactly what you say, “great telly”, if what you mean by that is it is brought to the non-politically aware people who would otherwise change Channels when a political matter is shown on TV or otherwise reported on other medias.

      ” … Those defending SNP MP’s might say, ‘oh, but you know we have put ‘pressure’ on the government on one subject or another’, and that may very well be true. It did however, achieve nothing.”

      Which is utter claptrap buy your own definitions – you claim, “It is good telly”, and that means you view the informing of the public is, by your own definitions, “achieving bugger all”, except you are far too mealy mouthed to actually say it without wee stars.

      If you are going to use such language then say them/type them. What does the wee stars achieve? Oh! Wait! It achieves bugger all does it not?

      However your narrative would not fit with your customary SNP BAAAD! narrative now would it? As usual you have your, not so very, secret agenda to maintain.

      The truth is that if it is, as you claim, “Good Telly”, then it is bringing the speech, or whatever, out of Westminster and into the public domain. If it does that the public must see how the SNP MPs are being badly treated by the de facto parliament of England.

      ” … They will always be outvoted, especially with Labour joining in to jeer the SNP together with their Tory chums.”

      Aye! and that, “good telly”, is getting out to the public. Now the public are not, (generally), daft, Robert Louis, complacent yes, daft no. They wouldn’t dream of watching a dry as dust absolutely dry as dust debate conducted properly with the opposing factions being respectful and both sides sticking to the technicalities at hand. But that, “Good Telly”, is worth its weight in gold for the entertainment value inevitably overlaps with the technicalities.

      I’ll put that a different way. Joe & Josephine Public are not at all interested in the technicalities they do not understand. They would never find out how Westminster is treating Joe an Josephine’s elected representative with utter contempt but they see it with their own eyes and while the technicalities and politics of the matter fly right over their heads the unfair and insulting behaviour, (the good telly bit), will leave a very big impression.

      I’ll tell you this, Robert Louis, I’m well into my eighties and I can never recall a time in my life when the general public of Scotland, of all ages, have been so interested and well informed in political matters. Thing is they are not getting it from the media who are vastly anti-indy and pro-union.

      You claim it is not getting through – so how do you explain the many thousands marching through the capital city in support of independence and the very few Butcher’s Apron waving fanatics that opposed them?

    179. @Gfaetheblock,

      as far as i know, since 2006, SF do get money,

      `Representative money`

      `Sinn Fein receive funding using the same Short money formula, but as a separate grant – known
      as Representative money.`

      not technically `short money` but using the same formula they would receive the same amount.

    180. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Below is link to the AirdrieforIndy poll ProudCybernat highlighted at 2.20.

      Question: ‘Should the SNP withdraw their MPs from the UK parliament in Westminster?’

      Has certainly been busy since this afternoon. 1,067 votes in as of now, cast as follows:

      Yes 61%
      No 30%
      DK 9%

      It was almost 50/50 when Cybernat posted (can’t remember the number of votes cast at that point but it wasn’t many) but Yes certainly strengthening. If my own poll is anything to go by then we should expect to see ‘No’ declining, ‘DK’ increasing, and the Yes staying pretty much the same.

      We’ll see!

    181. Dr Jim says:

      Every other country in the world without question can be Independent, every other country in the world receives congratulations on that Independence, every other country in the world uses a currency of one type or another,every other country in the world wouldn’t give up their Independence for anybody, but Scotland out of all the other countries in the world can’t be as equal as they are because Blah Blah Blah!

      Gutless cowards, Sectarianists, People who sell our lives for money and the people who steal our assets to fund another country that they’ve already robbed blind
      Scotland doesn’t need or want these people, in another age we would have killed them by now, unfortunately we don’t have the luxury of that any more

      We do have the opportunity to kill off their robbery though

    182. Gfaetheblock says:

      @ Scott finlayson

      Never heard of representative money, but looks like you are correct, so I stand corrected. Thanks. Seems somewhat bonkers, but that is a debate for another day

    183. E Steed says:

      I personally feel that the Treaty of Union has been consistently broken. Therefore, it is time to say “Enough is enough” – we have had the Poll Tax imposed; our MP’s sworn at and racially abused. The vote in 19769 was rigged by demanding a 40% majority and there has never been an English Parliament installed despite the agreement so let’s just consider the Treaty as no longer valid and put the vote in Parliament to annul same.

    184. Breeks says:

      gus1940 says:
      3 February, 2019 at 8:46 pm
      I reckon it would be a big mistake if The SNP MPs abandoned the Swamp by The Thames…

      It depends if it’s a hollow (though perfectly justified) gesture, or a meaningful Constitutional resolve to affect actual change in the system. It needs to have leverage.

      It’s not picking the reason why you walk out that’s especially difficult, it’s the reason why you’d be persuaded walk back in again.

      You could get up to all kinds of mischief. Say for example “calling a Parliament” of all Scotland’s MP’s from both Westminster and Holyrood, and “deciding” something – just to really set the Constitutional cat amongst the pigeons.

      I would hope the walkout would find a common interface with Europe, and seek some degree of formal recognition. At the very least, raise the Constitutional issue of UK Sovereignty being formally disputed once Scotland no longer sits in Westminster session.

      Personally, I think there isn’t enough time. We are staring down the barrel of Brexit. Playing games and gesture politics isn’t going to cut it. If they do walk out, I rather suspect it will have to be “it”. And no anticipated “going back” for anybody to be concerned about.

    185. Famous15 says:

      Stockpiling food

      Stockpiling medicine

      Saving the Queen

      Before the 28th of March take her safely to Balmoral

      Pensions unpaid

      Civil Service sacked

      Take back control

      Stop immigration

      Close care homes

      Close hospitals


      Foreigner in my own country

      Customs posts.

      Pound worthless

      Chlorinated chicken


      Resistant to antibiotics steaks

      Enjoy Brexiteers

    186. solarflare says:

      @Robert Peffers says:
      3 February, 2019 at 7:22 pm
      @solarflare says: 3 February, 2019 at 12:23 pm:

      “I’m sorry to tell you your perception is way off the mark. Statistically the ENP MPs are the hardest working group in the House of Commons.”

      You misunderstand my point. My point was not to say that the SNP MPs go to Westminster and do nothing.

      The point was that, in the midst of everything they are doing, Westminster is doing a pretty convincing job of tearing itself apart over Brexit.

    187. Ian Foulds says:

      I am sure the SNP Westminster MPs would appreciate if their fortitude was loudly and publicly acknowledged by the people back home but I am unsure what medium (media) could exercise this.

    188. ScottieDog says:

      Very good point by the wee ginger dug regarding salmond court case..

      “This means that there is in fact a political argument for pressing ahead with a vote on independence before any possible trial takes place, because as long as the matter is subjudice the British nationalist parties will not be legally permitted to reference it in their campaign. They cannot bring the subject up, and no one can speak about the issues it raises.”

    189. ben madigan says:

      in reply to the comment “We are staring down the barrel of Brexit.”


    190. My own view is that England is f@cked and could well descend into a fire storm of civil disobedience and outright civil war,

      that`s with a deal,

      without a deal,

      England will make the post apocalyptic film `The Road` look like a fun Michael Palin travel documentary,

      all SNP MP`s should try to get back to civilisation by 29th March,

      there will be masses gathering outside Westminster waiting for 11pm March 29th,

      the time and date of the official end of the blood soaked Brutish Empire.

    191. Sarah says:

      O/T Calling everyone who went on the Dumfries march: locals want to save some high street buildings for community purposes. They need another £20,000 before Tuesday 5th Feb –

    192. Legerwood says:

      The people of Northern Ireland voted to remain.

      The Stormont Assembly is closed.

      Who speaks for the people of Northern Ireland on these issues and keeps them front and centre during the debates on Brexit and NI’s future?

      Sinn Fein does not take up its seats in Westminster.

      So who gives voice to the concerns and wishes of the people of Northern Ireland?

      The DUP?? No. The voice of the people of Northern Ireland are not heard in any significant way on any issue.

      And that is what would happen to Scotland if the SNP MPs left Westminster. Who would speak for Scotland and act in it’s best interests? The Unionists?

      The Northern Ireland example demonstrates the danger that arises when a party absent itself from Westminster. Such an absence does not serve the best interests of the people but leaves them at the mercy of the extreme elements that seem to be in charge these days.

      There is, of course, another reason why the SNP must stay and I am surprised no one has mentioned it given how often it features on this site.

      I am, of course, speaking of the fact that the MPs are in Westminster because the ‘legally sovereign people of Scotland’sent them there. And who has the right to go against the express wishes of the ‘legally sovereign people of Scotland’?

    193. Effijy says:

      Mrs May-Hem,

      She voted remain so that makes her right to lead Brexit?

      She promised No General Election when there was speculation-
      We then had her General Election.

      She promised a great deal Brexit for the UK-
      She presented the worst deal we could have imagined.

      She promised parliament would vote on the deal in December and stuck to her guns right up to voting day when it was postponed
      until January.

      She promised she wasn’t hiding anything from parliament and then was found in contempt of parliament precisely for that.

      She promised that she would win January’s vote.
      She lost by the biggest majority ever.

      She made it clear that she would LISTEN to all other party leaders points of view on Brexit. She didn’t!

      She promised that she could not return to the EU to amend the deal. Now she is planning to return to ask for the deal to be amended.

      This former incompetent former Home Secretary who promised immigration figures in 10’s of thousands let in 320,000 people in is now the most pathetic UK PM ever and the Tories/BCC/English voters have every faith n her ability???

      NISSAN Chops investment in Sunderland car plant.
      This is due to Brexit but would you, a foreign company, who trades much of their business in Main Land Europe, be happy to find that your workers don’t like foreigners and who know that EU tariffs would make their cars uneconomical over there, would rather lose their jobs than reject Brexit.

      Sorry guys but luck with trying to resurrect your ship defunct building industry while signing on the dole.
      Sorry-Universal discredit.

    194. Vince says:

      Had an uncomfortable afternoon with a group of half a dozen people who I thought were possible/probable SNP/independence supporters. Everyone of them offered reasons why they did not support the SNP or independence. Their arguments ranged from the state of our education system, caps on the number of Scottish pupils at university,to the state of immigration particularly in this instance Govanhill, to not liking Nicola Sturgeon, the waste of money spent on baby boxes and they should be getting on with the day job considering the state of the country. One person told us how both his 90 year old parents believed that the SNP had run the country in to the ground.
      I countered as best as I could and think I did a decent job. To be fair the party did agree that there were many good things that the SNP had done and accepted from me that it was a bit rich to criticise a party devoting too much time to indyref when the UK government was spending all its time on Brexit.
      However, my overall abiding feeling was that they believed there were enough question marks hanging over the SNP not too trust them enough to support independence.
      It tells me that we have an uphill battle should the indyref trigger be pulled.

    195. cynicalHighlander says:


      And they all get there news from MSM

    196. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Vince (10.58) –


      Would you mind sharing where and when this meeting happened?

    197. Capella says:

      The canteen at BBC Scotland?

    198. Sarah says:

      @Vince: just want to thank you for giving it a go. It takes some strength to tackle a group on your own and try to share all the information you have in a way which they can accept and take on board. That is difficult to do – I’m not good at it myself!

      It sounds as if you have given them some things to think about which will pop into their minds and they will talk about at home. I expect they will start seeing things a bit differently. It all helps.

    199. Sunshine says:

      Dr Jim @8.37
      I thought that the SNP had requested a section 30 order and Theresa May had told them that “now is not the time”. Is this not the case?
      I tried to Google it, but no definitive answer if a section 30 order was actually asked for or not.
      I was always under the impression that it had been.

    200. Robert Louis says:

      Robert Peffers at 910pm,

      RP playing the man not the ball, just because he doesn’t like somebody else’s legitimate viewpoint. Shame, RP sometimes talks sense, when he isn’t resorting to personal insults.

    201. Hamish100 says:

      Vince– change your friends. Is it an evangelical group!?

    202. Sunshine says:

      Vince @10.38
      You sometimes get that and in my experience “group think” is much harder to challenge. Every time you prove an anti SNP claim to be untrue they just blindly ignore it and move on to the next issue. Police, education, NHS, and back to the beginning. Eventually you can grind then down to ” a don’t like that Nicola Sturgeon” and that’s usually the last bastion of a Msm reader who will always vote Labour, in my experience.
      Sometimes people will try and baffle me with figures etc, but I don’t get drawn into that. I just ask how come Norway has 1trillion quid in the bank and we owe money? That usually gets them a bit quiet.
      Some people are lost causes. There are Better Together voters in my family and would you believe it, last week one of them said with all seriousness, that if Scotland became independent then they would get an Irish passport and move to Ireland!
      Now that is what I call a lost cause.

    203. cynicalHighlander says:

      Hamish100 says:
      3 February, 2019 at 11:33 pm

      Vince– change your friends. Is it an evangelical group!?

      If you call the BBC a higher power then yes

    204. Sunshine says:

      Regarding the issue that Vince raises, this is why I feel very strongly that the next campaign must be a Yes campaign instead of an SNP campaign, if you know what I mean. I think that it suits the establishment to concentrate on the SNP during the referendum, as it’s easier. Of course Nicola Sturgeon is always going to be the head figure and I think that is a big plus, but we should try to change the campaign slightly to include more non SNP politicians to speak on tv or at press meetings. Imagine the Wee Ginger Dug as the press secretary, for example or Stuart Campbell as the media consultant unseen in the background.
      Just ideas, but something that will stop people like Vince spoke to from being easily convinced to vote no.

    205. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Vince was kind enough to share his experience with us.

      Now, we should wait until Vince is ready to respond to our reactions.

      It will not be easy, so we should give him time…

    206. auld highlander says:

      Vince @ 10.58

      Old timers who are victims of the relentless brain washing by the media, probably sucking werther’s originals on the way home in their honda jazz and feeling sorry for you the poor miss guided souls.

    207. K1 says:

      Ayup…mair pish on its way:

      Looks like they are digging in, in an attempt to rewrite the withdrawal agreement…again and again and again. Ireland will not accept any of this, rightly so.

      ‘May appoints Brexit hardliners to backstop working group’

    208. chicmac says:

      I’m afraid SNP MPs must continue to endure the ridicule and abuse of the mentaloids of Westminster with as much dignity as they can muster.

      I’m sure the barbaric Romans throwing Christians to the lions in the Colosseum did more to promote Christianity in Europe than it did to deter it.

    209. K1 says:

      Seriously it really could be evangelicals…I have some experience of those exact same attitudes and fall back positions wrt to SNP (and yes they are tuned into msm as main source of ‘all’ information) within the broad church that is my own family 😉

    210. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Capella at 2.09
      Written by Gene pitney. Bet you didn’t know that.

    211. Vince says:

      Hi Ian and others
      Thanks for your question and comments.
      I have written something like this reply but it seems to have vanished.
      Please excuse me if my original reply appears.
      This was not a meeting.
      It was a celebratory social occasion in a pub in Glasgow.
      The conversation involved myself and five others at my end of the table. The conversation was wide ranging and even when it became political it was amicable as we all recognised that we were at a social occasion.
      I was surprised to find myself in the company of 100% of people who appeared opposed to the idea of independence and in the main anti Scottish Government despite the fact that they recognised some of the things the government had been successful in, e.g. the SNHS. My normal experience has been a 50/50 split by headcount.
      These were pleasant, educated, professional people and rightly or wrongly I was taken aback by thre apparent lack of enthusiasm for the Scottish Government and independence.
      Only a straw poll, I know , but it’s a challenging message to me and perhaps of interest to others.

    212. Dr Jim says:

      I have a long time Tory aquaintance who votes SNP at every election but won’t vote for Independence, and simply put he says the SNP run everything far better than Tories or Labour have ever done because they care about Scotland

      The reason he’s a Tory? you might ask…Well by his own admission he’s a sectarianist bigot and a racist white supremacist, and the reason he won’t vote for Independence is *The Catholics will take over*

      I never said he was intelligent

    213. geeo says:

      @sunshine 11.27pm

      Nicola requested talks about a S.30, and treeza totally panicked, said “now is not the time” (for talks about one) and called a Snap GE to avoid the issue, and of course lost her majority.

      Possible THE worse political decision made by a sitting governent/PM during an office term, for quite some time.

      Arguably, and reasonably so, caused by Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP.

      Brexit would be a different animal if treeza still had her majority. Instead, fear of Scottish independence now drives the brexit narrative at every turn. The Tories are desperate for a no deal brexit as option one, but brilliant political work by the SNP/Scotsgov has made it a choice, ANY BREXIT and lose the Union with Scotland.

      When Scotsgov announce their intent to hold indyref2, with or without a S.30, then WM’s trade tslks with EU 27 are in tatters, who would be stupid enough to negotiate trade deals with WM when they are trying to sell goods which may shortly not be in their gift to trade with ?

      Answer is, certainly not anyone with functioning brain cells.

      Who says the SNP make no difference ?

    214. yesindyref2 says:

      Ooft jings, that Dumfries auction on Tuesday crowdfunder. Not much chance barring a rich donor from the money point of view. It’s suspicious it’s being done in a hurry, maybe someone found something in the deeds – which should be obtainable from the Land Registry.

      BUT with £10,000 in the kitty, that would be enough for a solicitor and an emergency interdict to prevent the auction going ahead on Tuesday – if there was a valid arguable reason. It could even drop the value to basically nothing.

      There’s also the possibilty the same condition if any is in the deeds for those properties already bought. Deeds really aren’t that hard to read by a layman by the way. It’s even possible the bought properties have a servitude over the ones up for sale. Or it could be external. External by some previous landed gentry over the whole area.

      Some I could think of off-hand, and I am not a lawyer:

      1). Details for sale produced for the auction being wrong or omitting pertinent facts. That could include a burden (servitude) over the land. I’ve no idea how old the buildings are, but the land goes back well, practically forever! Including back to the time Dumfries was a Royal Burgh, which might make such a servitude more likely for such as a high street if it’s been there for a long while.

      Haven’t checked but Royal Burghs were very specifically mentioned in the Act of Union and were in theory abolished in 1975. I hae ma doots, frankly, just that nobody has probably challenged the status (or non-status) in court.

      Not all solicitors really understand land to be honest, it needs a good one and perhaps a specialist.

      If you know one of the party, please pass this on, it’s probably worth absolutely nothing by the way.

    215. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Vince –

      Fascinating testimony.

      More, please!

    216. yesindyref2 says:

      Oh yeah, the point about Royal Burghs for the Dumfries thing is that one prime purpose was – commerce. If for instance the land couldn’t be used for housing, only business, then that sounds like a winner to me. But deeds need someone as a challenger, someone who has a right to challenge.

    217. Robert Peffers says:

      @Legerwood says: 3 February, 2019 at 10:27 pm:

      ” … I am, of course, speaking of the fact that the MPs are in Westminster because the ‘legally sovereign people of Scotland’sent them there. And who has the right to go against the express wishes of the ‘legally sovereign people of Scotland’?”

      Aye! You are right on the mark there, Legerwood, but I’ll give you an even better reason along similar lines.

      The idea of a walkout wrongly presupposes that Westminster is the legal properly elected parliament of England and Scotland is walking away from it.

      The legal truth being that Westminster is not the parliament of England it is the parliament of the United Kingdom. It is thus a parliament that legally represents two kingdoms in a union. It is neither a country’s parliament nor a republics parliament. It represents two kingdoms that must forever have two independent legal systems.

      That needs to be amplified however for few people realise what the actual legal situation is that makes it impossible for the two kingdoms to come under one rule of law.

      In the three country kingdom of England the country of England had by military conquest, (legal in Christendom at te time), imposed English law and rule upon Wales by the Statute of Rhuddlan. Note it is a statute imposed by a sovereign monarchy.

      The same monarchy imposed English law upon Ireland by The Crown of Ireland Act, that placed the Crown of Ireland upon the English monarch’s head.

      Thing is that under English Law the Kingdom of England countries are legally a Constitutional Monarchy in which the monarch is still actually legally sovereign . However, in 1688, the Parliament of England changed the law that obliges the monarchy to delegate sovereignty to the Parliament of England and Westminster ceased to be the parliament of the Kingdom of England in 1707 when it became the United Kingdom Parliament.

      The Kingdom of Scotland changed in 1320 by the Declaration of Arbroath but in Scotland’s case the law did NOT leave the monarch of Scotland as legally sovereign nor did it delegate the monarch’s sovereignty to the Scottish Parliament. It outright made the people of Scotland legally sovereign and we still are legally sovereign.

      There is thus no way to reconcile the two rules of law and as there is no actual elected Parliament of England to be the delegated sovereign of the Kingdom of England the Queen of England remains sovereign in the three Kingdom of England countries.

      There is the reason why the Scots MPs must remain at Westminster as long as Westminster is legally the United Kingdom Parliament.

      It simple is the Westminster centuries of brainwashing that has people thinking that Westminster is going to remain the legal parliament of England and Scotland is leaving, “The United Kingdom”, upon becoming independent.

      Scotland isn’t leaving the rUnited Kingdom because you don’t have a United Kingdom left when the only two kingdoms that signed the Treaty of Union split up. The United Kingdom instantly ends and it isn’t elected as The Parliament of England, (neither country or kingdom).

      If Scots MPs walk away they are gifting Westminster to the Kingdom of England and that parliament was designed and built as the United Kingdom Parliament with the funds of both partner kingdoms. BTW: It was Westminster that nationalised the Bank of England so that too, and Sterling, the armed forces, the civil service and a lot more as well is partly owned by Scotland. What is more the idea that the assets and debts of the United Kingdom will be shared on the basis of the current population ratios is not the case.

      The sole reason that Scotland’s population has declined in relation to England’s, (the kingdoms), is down to Westminster rule and how they governed Scotland since the union began.

      So just why should we walk out of the parliament that is legally a two kingdom united Kingdom Parliament? We own part of it – what part yet to be negotiated.

      I have to wonder why the vast majority of Scots, and almost all Englanders, just seem to assume that Westminster is actually legally the parliament of England. It isn’t – it just thinks it is. There is no such thing as a parliament of England and all MPs in the commons are United Kingdom MPs.

      Which, of course, makes EVEL a totally illegal Westminster rule. If they want to deal separately with English Matters they need to setup an English Grand Committee or establish a devolved Parliament of England with separate elected members of the English Parliament. MEPs – Oh! Wait! There are already parliamentarians in the EU Parliament that are MEPs. Maybe that’s why Theresa wants them out of the EU?

    218. Vince says:

      Hi Ian

      It is several years, I think since I last posted anything here.
      I am a vociferous supporter of independence. Not someone who attends rallies for a number of reasons but I do try and get across a positive view for independence at what I regard as appropriate times.
      I was sufficiently taken aback today by the positive things being acknowledged by those in my company yet there obvious reluctance because of their perception of Scottish Government failings to fall behind support for independence.
      Ian, I have told you some of the substance of conversations, I have had today. These were not the “testimony” of “evangelicals” as someone has suggested but a group of people from whom I would have expected to hear more supportive words.
      Am I wrong to point out my surprise and disappointment?
      My apologies if I have picked up an inference in your questions which are not there

    219. Tam says:

      the original constitutional Irish national party did take up its seats, they did use the procedures of the house of commons to frustrate its day to day work, Sinn Fein where born as revolutionary party they are proud of their tradition just as the SNP are proud of their non-violent constitutional position, each is related to their own historic circumstances you can’t judge what are completely different

    220. sandycraig says:

      Vince @ 1220

      Similar experience at the weekend with couple of guys I’ve known for years. Putting it simply, all politicians are a bunch of arseholes, Tories as well but at least they are trying?????? You had your vote on Independence and lost, so you can’t have another one. I pointed out W RENNIE wanted another one, Ah but that is different.

      What aboot the public toilets, there’s hardly any of them open nowadays, mentioned that was local council matter, Ah but they get the money from NS. Said it was really the way the council spent the money on services. Well anyway AS and NS are to blame and they’ll be in the jile shortly. I said this is not about personalities but politics, trade, etc, disny matter we want oot.

      They Europeans are all dictating what’s going to happen to Britain, and we should just tell them to get stuffed. Tried some of the facts that “Wingers” post about exports, how rich a country we are etc. Next argument was they should be thankful for us helping them oot during the war. They are younger than me by about 15 years. I gave up.

      However I’m going back next week, and I’m going to bring the subject up again, because there were some others there who may be interested in the truth. We’ll get a laugh if nothing else.
      Guess where they get their information, yep, the Sun and Record, so enough said.

      Trying to watch this Superbowl spectacle but jings it’s pretty boring so I’m awa tae ma bed.

    221. sandy says:

      A couple of ideas for SNP at WM.

      When the time is called for the seemingly vote between May’s folly & no deal, SNP abstain.
      Result:- upheaval in England/Wales of their own making. While they are vainly trying to sort their massive problems we can be striding towards our rightful independence more or less unhindered. The Unionist tractors from Scotland can be ignored.

      Also, when SNP questions or speeches are being derided by the baying donkeys, the member then halts until such time as quietness & respect is restored. This, presumably, would be the speaker’s responsibility. If that said member were to specifically ask for this to be implemented & recorded in Hansard, could MSM ignore it.

      Just a thought.

    222. call me dave says:


      Thanks for posting that experience for us to discuss. That maybe a typical reaction in a group but I am sure any points you made will be thought about by each person you encountered.

      A one on one discussion is easier and always some common ground and progress is made.

      You may be the ‘Vince’ and or Vincent from 2012..ish who posted comments on News Net Scotland and WoS that I remember.

      If you are or if you ain’t no matter. Post again soon 🙂

      OH! Of course our MPs should attend the HoC. It’s a dirty job converting the bastards and we should support them for standing up for Scotland and its people whether they are YES or NO (on the road to be YES).

      The time is coming soon for a vote to be had.

    223. twathater says:

      Like most on here I am against the SNP MP’s leaving just now but I fully support Geeo’s suggestion @ 4.16pm ——————

      Perhaps, all SNP MP’s standing at Scottish Questions and refusing to sit down when the Speaker choses who to speak next, if that person is a non Scots MP, followed by a point of order about why should an ENGLISH/WELSH/N.IRISH MP have the right to ask a question during SCOTTISH Questions, when Scottish MP’s are subjected to EVEL ?

      Right before PMQ’s as well, so would definitely be noticed by the media waiting on PMQ’s.

      That would REALLY set the cat among the pigeons , there would be uproar , and even if the speaker demanded they leave the chamber it would emphasize the disparity and injustice of EVEL , and illustrate more to undecideds just how disrespected Scotland’s voters are ( more grist to the mill )

      I am not interested in wastemonster giving ANY respect to Scotland’s representatives the ONLY thing I want is independence the SOONER the better

    224. sandy says:

      Twathater: @ 2.40 am.

      Perhaps he should point out that under the auspices of WM rules, EVEL is not legal, as pointed out by Mr. Peffers in a previous post & if they wanted to invoke EVEL, well, appoint an English parliament.

    225. twathater says:

      @ Sandy 2.56am now that would get the fur flying

    226. Cactus says:

      An excellent shout out from Mary Lou, good and important to hear it said.

      Maybe our pro-Scotland politicians of the ceremonial Westminster could do a bit of both them scenarios to create arousal and further stimulation…

      100% SNP politicians attend the PMQ’s on the Wednesday sure, then a ‘number’ of the cool SNP politicians could travel back up HOME to attend the Thursday FMQ’s as members of the public to watch from the public gallery (can they do that?) how’s that for a bit of internal networking.

      Then when they return to PMQ’s in London the following Wednesday, our politicians could shame the opposition by comparing the immature conduct of their parliament in London to the mature, modern and progressive government we have here in Edinburgh ’19.

      Our FMQ’s could even give to oor visiting politicians, going back to Westminster, to give-a-give-a-give-a-gift to their house… something tae free the chains frae oor unicorn like, to place by their mace like, something like…

      A pair of bolt-cutters.

      Walk This Way:

      NB A welcome to all of U new Wings posters on this thread. KP.

    227. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      sandycraig @ 00:58,

      The hardcore BritNat Leavers are a lost cause. They are diametrically opposed to almost every (if not every single) policy of the current Scottish Government, so an indy Scotland would be a nightmare for such people. I guess their only Achilles heel, and one to leave them thinking about, is the painfully visible rank incompetence of the Westminster parties over Brexit, as seen from every possible standpoint. The UK is failing and becoming a laughing stock. Not at all a good look.

      Thankfully these people represent a small minority of the people of Scotland, maybe 10% to 25% tops. With them, disengagement may be the best to hope for. Assure them that whatever they may think, given the UK’s absurd rigidity, independence is inevitable, that former no’s are steadily moving over to yes, then ask them if they are prepared for it…!

    228. Cactus says:

      Which enquiringly asks the next obvious question…

      Does Westminster (HoC / HoL) have a public gallery for MoTP?

      You never see crowd shots, do you.

    229. Breeks says:

      sandycraig says:
      4 February, 2019 at 12:58 am
      Vince @ 1220

      Similar experience at the weekend with couple of guys I’ve known for years. Putting it simply, all politicians are a bunch of arseholes, Tories as well but at least they are trying?????? You had your vote on Independence and lost, so you can’t have another one. I pointed out W RENNIE wanted another one, Ah but that is different.

      The argument about the SNP’s “Marmite factor”, Nicola Sturgeon’s “Marmite factor”, Alex Salmond’s “Marmite factor”, is evidence of playing the man, not the ball. The sad thing is that the amount of energy and enthusiasm the BritNat establishment puts into promoting the SNPbad, Nicola Sturgeon bad, or Alex Salmond bad narrative, is met with a similarly sterile and intransigent, though it must be said understandable, knee jerk reaction from SNP supporters.

      As a consequence however, there is barely an issue raised which doesn’t escalate into one or other polarised opinion. Anything short of gushing approval for the SNP triggers hostility from the SNP’s praetorian guard, whereas the mereset waterthin suspicion someone has pro independence sympathies is enough to send most Unionists into apoplexy. This unfortunately sees informative and constructive debate truncated and shallow, and reduces the whole issue of politics to the manic puppet show which passes for Government.

      Westminster might be the mother of all puppet shows, but Scotland has the dubious distinction of being puppet-show-lite.

      The point is the frenzied battle between political celebrity and the media is not serving the interest of political necessity. The issues brought to the forefront are determined by the media, although the media is all too often in cahoots with one or other Establishment voice.

      The whole thing is rotten and dysfunctional. If you audited the last four years since the 2014 referendum for constructive, progressive, informative debate, you would scarcely fill a manifesto pamphlet.

      The UK is now circling the drain, about to suffer unprecedented difficulties and disruption by it’s own volition, which can only find approximate parallels with the isolation of errant Nations going to war. Yet even now, with the disaster about to arrive, there is nothing constructive being discussed.

      Scotland is just one example in thousands. But where is the quiet, objective analysis of what Scotland’s options are? What Scotland’s Constitutional position is? What procedures and protocols need to be gone through to affect change and protect Scotland’s interests? We get none of it.

      Instead the debate is how many SNP are on Question Time. How much of Nicola’s speech was broadcast. How rudely Ian Blackford was ignored… Zzzzzzzz.

      I hate to point it out, and yes to a massive extent it’s the media, not us, who is responsible, but I see uncomfortable parallels between an ill informed and inarticulate debate about Brexit turning into a triumph of populist bile over the sanctity of truth, and the same lack of preparedness amongst Scotland’s electorate over Independence. We should not be sleep walking this close to a cliff.

      I’m not talking about individuals making the transition from No to Yes, I’m talking about “THE” pro Independence narrative. People are still voting, or rather preparing to vote, with their gut feelings, not their brains.

      Personally, (and I have conspiracy theories it’s been carefully orchestrated to be that way), our politics is broken and largely dysfunctional. I mean, it’s allowed to work, and it does work well over local and domestic issues, but when it comes to anything important of National interest, we find there are no control mechanisms at our disposal. We have no sovereign veto. We have no Scottish media. We have no ongoing liaison between Scottish politician and Scottish voter which isn’t first filtered through the jaundiced British Establishment media.

      We have 53 days until the lights go out, but ask yourself whether you are any better informed of the options now, fully conversant with the ramifications, and up to date with the facts than you were in the weeks before the Brexit Referendum. I respectfully suggest a great many people are still in the dark.

      The whole system is broken. Politics is broken. Scottish politics is being deliberately suppressed, manipulated and distorted. – That is why it is left paralysed eight weeks from a tsunami of catastrophe.

      To have a chance of Scotland surviving this, we MUST be bold and courageous about what we do with our Constitutional Sovereignty. Some people won’t like it. It may spawn unwelcome and unpredictable consequences, but Scotland must wrestle free its capacity to be sovereign and autonomous, and have it recognised internationally.

      Just imagine if the 6 cross party Scottish politicians who took the Article 50 revocation to the ECJ had actually petitioned the ECJ to recognise the Constitutional sovereignty of Scotland… Think about it. Think hard about it. Think fast.

    230. Cyber-corroboree says:

      I recall in Indy 1 the MSM being so one-sided and I kept thinking the SNP are not challenging them for a tactical reason. I was waiting as the 19th got closer thinking they’ll change their tack any day now and catch the No campaign on the hop, but nothing happened. They simply kept on as they were. We’re all waiting to hear what the plan is this time round, but what if they don’t have anything?

      Breek’s idea of petitioning the ECJ has much merit and logic, but it only will work pre-29th March. After that Holyrood is gone and Mundell with the bused-in 3000 civil servants take over.

    231. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Breeks @ 6.24am

      Jeezo mate, that’s heavy stuff for this time on a Monday morning, but, well said, and thanks for posting it.

      An awful lot to think about in there, a terrific post.

    232. ScottieDog says:

      “Had an uncomfortable afternoon with a group of half a dozen people who I thought were possible/probable SNP/independence supporters. Everyone of them offered reasons why they did not support the SNP or independence. ”

      I feel your pain. I work in environment full of middle classers. The vast majority are anti independence. I had a very uncomfortable time of it leading up to sep 2014.
      In most cases I found an argument which was skin deep – I.e daily mail derived which could be torn apart.

      There were however things which couldn’t be argued with – U.K. denying a currency union for example but even if we had argued for a separate currency they still would have been very much against.

      I don’t think much has changed. The dominant narrative in these people’s mind is that fed by main stream press so it’s very hard to break a lifetime of brainwashing.

      I’m in support of the SNP waiting – until the pain takes hold and people start to lose things dear to them. It’s the pain-pleasure principle. People will gravitate away from perceived pain. The perceived pain has to be brexit.

    233. Stravaiger says:

      Breeks, I know you must sometimes feel like a lone voice in the wilderness, but some of us at least are actually listening.

      Personally, I feel that the route that is being taken is the one that has to be taken if we are to win this, but I also agree that we need to be ready for anything.

      The darkest hour is just before dawn.

    234. Giving Goose says:

      Vince, if you cannot convince someone that immigration is controlled by London (which is, frankly a no-brainer) and that any issues a voter has with immigration is one for directing anger at London, then give up.
      That issue should be the easiest to speak to.

    235. cearc says:

      If you are shipping goods from the far-east by sea, it takes four to six weeks to arrive in UK. So already (not in 53 days time) companies have to decide whether or not to ship goods with no idea what the customs and tax regime will be when they arrive or how long it will take to clear customs.

      I would imagine that shipping companies are also worried about the possibility that their ships will end up stuck, queueing for dock space.

      So the choice would surely be to ship to the EU under existing trade deals (Japan has a shiny new one as well!) Any onward transition to UK could be done from there when the picture is clearer and you have some idea of the tariffs and paperwork required.

      On the brightside, if businesses stop exporting to the UK it will reduce britannia’s trade deficit. (I can see the headlines now, ‘Brexit reduces trade deficit!’)

    236. ScotsRenewables says:

      Great Post Breeks

    237. robbo says:

      Vince says:
      3 February, 2019 at 10:58 pm

      Interesting bullet points there. Quite similar to what MSM sell.

      Could I ask what made you think they were possible/probable SNP/independence supporters in the first place?

    238. Les Wilson says:

      I do not think our leaving the HOC would enhance our cause much.At the moment our MP’s are seen to be abused, and how Scotland is treated as an equal(cough) partner in a “Union” of equal partners,and that is important for others to witness.

      This behaviour is there to be seen and I believe most Scots are disgusted, for many they are seeing Westminster in ways never contemplated before, how useless they really are, and how they work against Scottish interests, to their own benefit. Resulting in more active votes for Independence.

      The HOC and the unionist parties,are making Scotland’s case for us with their behaviour and treatment on our needs and requests.

      What I do believe though is that we should be causing mayhem
      in that place that treats our hard working MP’s with such distain. Including walking out at times where we could inflict maximum damage to the archaic system that is employed there.

    239. Shinty says:

      @ cearc

      Genuine question: is there or will there not also be a problem at point of departure, for any goods destined for the UK? (whether from EU countries or not)

    240. Petra says:

      @ Breeks at 6:24am ….. “Just imagine if the 6 cross party Scottish politicians who took the Article 50 revocation to the ECJ had actually petitioned the ECJ to recognise the Constitutional sovereignty of Scotland …. think about it”……

      I would imagine that people like Joanna Cherry have thought about it, Breeks. Now what would happen if we lost that case? Well that doesn’t bear thinking about, does it? And if we won? What then? What next? How would that help us to get our Independence? We would no doubt have to prove that a majority of sovereign Scots wanted Independence which would bring us back to where we are right now. Square one.

    241. Petra says:

      For the dafties that think we have to wait for the Alex Salmond case to be resolved before we hold IndyRef2. I don’t remember GE’s being held up due to allegations being made against ex-Westminster politicians (plus current) or Holyrood politicians for that matter.

      WGD:- ‘Three Good Reasons.’

    242. `concern troll`

      In an argument (usually a political debate), a concern troll is someone who is on one side of the discussion, but pretends to be a supporter of the other side with “concerns”.

      The idea behind this is that your opponents will take your arguments more seriously if they think you’re an ally.

      Concern trolls who use fake identities are sometimes known as sockpuppets.

    243. Alex says:

      The point is that this ‘United Kingdom’ is a dictatorship.

      And that means that normal politics are subsumed amid England’s Brexit, its contempt and hatred for Scotland and the Scots, and the effluent and outpourings from elected politicans; for example ‘a piece of shit’ – take a bow, ‘socialist’ Dennis Skinner of Labour – ‘go home’, ‘commit suicIde’, and all the platitudes that ‘Britain’s’ finest feel empowered to hurl at SNP MPs at Westminster.

      This is not democracy. So in my view the SNP are justified in refusing to take part in the charade that is politics in the English Parliament. We are ruled by and from England. That is not normalcy. It is normal for a country to rule itself. That is self-evident.

      Extreme times and political issues call for unswerving courage and conviction. A number of commentators have claimed that, legally at least, it would be difficult for Scotland to dissolve the union as the English Parliament is sovereign, and the law reserves that sovereignty in the form of Westminster’s ‘assent’ or otherwise to a Section 30.

      Nonsense. The law is a living entity, and capable of being refined, revalued, and reintroduced. A racidal start would be to expose the shame of ‘democracy’ by refusing to take part in the simian antics of the gibbering classes in Westminster.

      Then Scotland’s lawyers could set about the task of amending legislature required for an independent Scotland. Independence is as difficult, or as easy, as we choose to make it.

    244. cearc says:


      Well that is kinda what I am saying.

      Would you send container loads of goods which may or may not have the right paperwork for when they arrive?

      Will the shipping companies do likewise?

      Probably, the biggest factor is whether the insurers will cover for delays for shipments? It is pretty expensive to have ships unable to dock.

      I don’t know but I would have thought that exports to the UK will start to drop off sharply in a couple of weeks. At least until it is known what tariffs and rules apply and whether UK customs (who don’t seem to have trained any significant number of new officers) can cope.

    245. Capella says:

      @ DMH – I didn’t know Gene Pitney wrote it till I read the notes under the youtube video. It was a few years ago since I head it!

    246. Cyber-corroboree says:

      @Petra. I’m not sure if the six followed Breek’s idea that they would end up back at square one. It would be legal standing that confirmed Scotland could unilaterally revoke article 50 on the strength of the country voting 62% to remain.

      England by all means could continue, but without taking the Scots.

    247. starlaw says:

      Of course its a Dictatorship, Take a dictionary look up Dictator then look up Monarch. This country is less democratic than China.

    248. Legerwood says:

      Petra @ 8.34 am.

      Exactly. Well said.

    249. Golfnut says:

      @ Alex

      ‘ Independence is as difficult, or as easy, as we choose to make it ‘

      With or without a Section 30, a referendum takes place. Yes wins.
      The first action of Scot Gov, dissolve the union, assume all executive power.
      The Scot gov would then need to decide whether to recognise whether Westminster as the legitimate legislator for negotiations to begin.
      Request that the English crown appoints commissioners to meet with the Scottish Gov.
      Appoint a Gaurdian to represent the Scottish Crown and assume the position of Head of State. A referendum would be held on the monarchy at a later.
      The Gaurdian then has the authority over all crown functions such as the Civil service.
      Sack Mundell and appoint a new head of civil service.
      The BBC is a government funded public body, appoint a board of Governers and remove the management.
      Busy first day.

    250. bjsalba says:

      @vince 1220
      A group of people at a social event is not really random.

      Folks with similar backgrounds and similar views will tend to congregate – birds of a feather and all that.

      You could just as easily have sat at a table with all SNP supporters.

      If it happens to you again, I suggest you move on and see if you can find a group that is more mixed.

    251. Colin Alexander says:

      Independence is about the people of Scotland running their own country, not about whether you like the SNP administered UK colonial govt for Scotland.

      Do people prefer the unelected House of Lords and 91% of MPs whom Scotland didn’t elect running Scotland like a colony?

      Those genuinely willing to consider things usually then respond:

      I agree with that about running our own affairs would be better than the House of Lords etc but, Scotland would be bankrupt if it wasn’t part of the UK / each family will be £ thousands worse off under independence.

      They ignore the fact that UK national debt currently stands at £1.78 trillion according to Wikipedia and borrowing or deficit was £42.9 billion on a year old figures.

      So, I think it all comes down to Project Fear over the financial state of indy Scotland. Something that the SNP have apparently done nothing to tackle over the last four years.

      And I’ll say it again: If it had been established in court what happens if Scotland votes for independence eg, division of financial assets of the UK, it would have removed many uncertainties.

      In 2014, fear of change was another factor. If Brexit goes ahead, change and financial and political uncertainty will be a certainty.

    252. Maolbeatha says:

      My tuppenceworth.

      If our MP’s treatment was widely and frequently broadcast to the people of Scotland it could have one of two effects.
      The pro union side would be delighted by it.
      The pro Indy side would be more infuriated by it and the undecided could go either way!

      I don’t believe it is widely known or acknowledged by those not making the effort to look for the information in places like this. Because the main media channels do not broadcast it.

      If we ask for a section 30 and if refused walk out of Westminster with a view to that being the start of Indy2
      The pro union side may claim that we are derelict in our duties and not representing the constituents that put the MP’s there. (Ironic much?)
      There would at least be a fixed point and a clear reason to break away as Westminster is not doing what we believe it should.

      However it is doing exactly what it is intended to do. Protect the Union and looking after Englands interests before all else.

      What worries me about the argument with regards to Holyrood having the power to declare Independence or holding another indy ref without Westminsters permission are two things.

      1. The way powers are devolved means that the powers needed are legally not in Holyrood, they are held in Westminster. So any referendum would be thrown out of a court. Look at the continuation bill. Morally correct, Legally correct. Until it wasn’t.
      Yes I know that Brexit was advisory.

      2. The sovereign will of the Scottish people to my mind is a very appealing route however I believe it would need to have a sizeable majority in support of it before it could be used. No matter what happens I doubt we will have 80% majority support for Independence (a baffling concept is why isn’t it 100%). Without a large majority screaming for it I doubt the Government will risk it.

      I cannot help thinking that anyone in Scotland not supporting Independence isn’t paying attention or is misinformed. For that I hold the main stream media responsible.

      Withdrawing our MP’s is risky and if not connected to a bigger action would be seen as symbolic and reported as petulant and ultimately maybe pointless.

      Leaving them there shows they are trying to make the best of a bad job and demonstrates their commitment to their constituents.
      At least for the moment and as far as it is reported.

      Remember not all in Scotland believe as we do. Not all are seeking information outside the msm.
      Some even believe that Westminster knows what it is doing and acts in all our interests!

      Of course people also the Earth is flat, The Empire will be restored and Gb is a world superpower.
      Go figure.
      People are weird.

    253. Capella says:

      How people identify with social groups is a big subject. Too big for the BTL commentariat – with the honourable exception of CameronB Brodie – where art thou?

      For a quick look at the social theory of Erving Goffman on Stigma – here’s a wiki article. Basically, we try to avoid stigma. If the MSM routinely stigmatises the SNP and independistas then fearful people will deny knowing us. Sad fact.

    254. Famous15 says:

      My response to those who criticise Scottish education is to state that I went to school in Scotland,my children went to school in Scotland and currently my grandchildren go to school in Scotland.

      From direct knowledge I have no doubt in stating my grandchidren are receiving the best education.

    255. Vince says:

      Robbo @ 8.25am
      It was more a feeling based on the mix and nature of the people.I was surprised at how wrong I was.
      You will understand that I won’t post on this again as the subject has now had an excessive airing based on the small sample of people involved.

    256. Scott says:

      Headline in Tory rag P&J.

      North Sea can deliver £110bn bonanza for UK

      If only they had the guts to say Scotland but what was it that Joan Lamont said we are not able to solve our problems,something like.
      I think she was meaning Richard and his lot.

    257. geeo says:

      Oh look…coco is getting more desperate by the day still.

      Until thursday, when he thinks we forget his all week SNP BAD ‘colonial gov’ pish, and he becomes the indyest supporter ever….

      Time is nearly up rock…sorry, coco, and you and yer repetitive, rock style trolling bollocks can quietly go lose lose yersel.

    258. Golfnut says:


      Good point regarding a decision on recognising Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty.

      The point I would make though is quite simple. Just who has the authority to ask for a decision on our sovereignty, who has the authority to decide where our Sovereignty lies.
      I read on here that we gave our Sovereignty to Westminster, who decided that, who asked for that decision.
      Even English Constitutional law states that sovereignty can’t be given, it can’t be taken, it can only be loaned.

      Scotland’s Constitutional law is quite clear however ancient, the Crown is there to uphold and protect the Soverieignty of the people of Scotland.

      Power is never given, it is taken.

    259. auld highlander says:

      Scott at 10.06

      Surely that headline in the tattie pickers gazette (P&J) should have read……

      £110 billion bonanza for England.

    260. Petra says:

      Additionally Breeks you stated at 6:24am … “the Constitutional sovereignty of Scotland”, which should in fact read the “sovereignty of the Scottish people”, imo.

      If such a case went to the ECJ the first thing that they would have to do is to ascertain who exactly constitutes being a sovereign Scot. Does it relate to Scots born people only? Anyone who lives in Scotland? Anyone who owns property in Scotland? Scots (born) who live in England or even further afield? Taking this into account we could actually be opening a can of worms and maybe points like this have been discussed by our MANY Constitutional experts leading to them leaving “well alone.”

      More than anything, Westminster has already acknowledged that the Scottish people are sovereign, so I doubt that even they would oppose such a case going in front of the ECJ. They acknowledge our sovereignty just as the UN and EU will do too when a majority of Scots vote for Independence. It’s because Westminster are aware of this that they are doing their utmost to prevent IndyRef2 going ahead. Doing their utmost to ensure that we don’t get a majority of Scots supporting Independence. I reckon if you, and others like you, spent us much time on here garnering support for the SNP, instead of trashing them at every turn and gaslighting people with your convoluted ideas, we’d be well on our way to getting what you say you want …… our Independence.

    261. Roughian says:

      cearc @ 9.07

      Customs paperwork and shipping delays.

      Most goods these days are shipped by container. The container can be offloaded from the vessel and held by R&C until paper work sorted. Bulk goods can also be held just a bit more storage needed. The issue would be with perishable goods about how long they could be held without degrade.
      Companies can raise a financial guarantee with R&C to cover any back duty which may be due or pay a duty and claim back if the new tariff is less than originally charged.
      Companies can put goods into bonded warehouse and pay no duty until removed and new tariff applied. You can declare a part of your premises as bonded to store these goods, just make sure if R&C pay a visit your records match the physical stock.
      So while no deal is going to be a real pain there are ways to get round the paperwork.
      The main issue is the cost of all this messing about and the number of people who understand how to work it.

    262. ALAN GERRISH says:

      A couple of things which happened yesterday on so-called politics shows were quite revealing in ways which were presumably unintended, but which proved, to cynical me at least, that suspicions of foul play by the Westminster establishment are well founded.

      First we had the welcome observation by Mary Lou MacDonald on the Marr show that Westminster completely ignores the views and wishes of Scotland. The next guest on the show was Barry Gardiner (BLP, Glasgow born and schooled), who, at the very beginning of this interview, chose not to answer Marr’s first question before he had taken time out to trash Mary Lou’s views and emphasise that the UK Government was working for all parts of the UK, including Scotland. Now why would a Labour shadow minister be defending a Tory government I asked myself. Further confirmation if any were needed, of the fact the Unionist parties are indeed two sides of the Establishment coin.

      The other event was the statement by Tom Harris(?)of the “fact” that there can be no independence referendum until after the charges against Alex Salmond have been resolved. Again I think the only “fact” we have in all of this pish is that we now have proof that the only objective of introducing allegations against Alex was to delay the Independence referendum.

      So although most folk on here have known and written about these two issues many times already, what I think is now happening is that the British Nationalists are becoming increasingly desperate and are now unwittingly giving their own game away in the process. And this in turn proves they know it’s not working, the game’s up and their ship is slowly, but surely sinking…..Mayday, Mayday, Mayday!

    263. Dr Jim says:

      According to the BBC the oil and gas industry is ailing again and needs careful handling

      You could set your clock by them, I guess we’ll have to have Sir Ian Wood on again to tell us how bad all the new oil and gas discoveries are going to be for us

      Money just seems to be a burdon too much for us Scots to handle

    264. As Stuart says there are valid cases on both sides in regard to whether SNP MPs should take their seats at Westminster.

      While I can see the merits of SNP MPs boycotting the UK Parliament,the down side to taking such a course of action would be damaging to the party electorally, for the British nationalist parties it would be a god sent opportunity in Scotland to make hay with such a stance.

      Also it would be very difficult for any SNP Parliamentary
      candidate to ask people to vote for their vote and then tell voters they weren’t going to take their seats at Westminster.

      The question any voters would ask is what’s the point of voting SNP.

    265. Sunshine says:

      Geeo @12.24
      Thanks for clearing that up and the events that lead to the election etc.
      I would have put my house on the fact that a section 30 order had been refused. Then again I swore blind this morning that my wife had the car keys, to the point of causing an argument, only to find them in my pocket.
      Funny old thing, the memory!

    266. galamcennalath says:

      From a Tweet on WoS twitter …

      Peter Geoghegan …. what’s almost never pointed out is that if Brexiters really believe tech can solve the border they have nothing to worry about and should sign the WA. Backstop only kicks in if all other alternatives don’t work. So what’s the concern?

      That is absolutely spot on. What it highlights, of course, is that Brexiters just don’t want a deal. The want yo go over the cliff into their brave new world far right ‘utopia’.

    267. cearc says:


      You have to have the physical space to stack the containers, otherwise you can’t unload. Ditto with bonded warehouses and storage. The UK has sufficient for current trade rules and distribution systems but nothing much has been done about expanding storage or increasing processing staff.

    268. Dr Jim says:

      Whatever happened to the man who was charged with the attempted murder of Alex Salmond
      Whatever happened to the man charged with death threats to Nicola Sturgeon
      Just last week a *right wing* extremist was arrested over bomb making in his house, anybody know who he was intending to bomb, and he’s not the first, there have been a bunch of these guys, but do we know the results of any of these things? No! because the *news* isn’t and doesn’t report the results of this stuff, why not?

      Well take a guess why not

      They hounded Michelle Thompson for years over nothing
      They’re hounding us now over Alex Salmond and tomorrow they’ll hound us over something else and they’ll keep hounding us until we don’t exist because they can’t kill us which is what they’d like to do

      Scotland has worked for England for three hundred years and in the last fifty we’ve paid for everything out of the North sea including the part of it they stole
      Who ever heard of a country where you’re standing on the beach at St Andrews and you’re in Scotland but if you go for a paddle you’re in England

      Do the BBC ever report that at least sounds a bit odd, Naw they don’t, have they ever reported that as news? why not?

      Why don’t they locate Trident somewhere else when a whole country umpteen times as a majority tell them we don’t want the damn thing for all sorts of reasons, but try just this one reason, Michael Fallon was defence Minister he came to Scotland to smile at us then stood on national Television and told Bernard Ponsonby of STV that WMDs make North Korea a target, so does that mean in Scotland it’s fine to make us a target? well no because it’s different *Britain* doesn’t have WMDs we have Nuclear deterrents (They’re different) under the broad shoulders of the UK only us Scots people will die and we don’t F…..G count

      But our resources, our land and our sea do

      Scottish people are expendable and always have been

    269. Robert Louis says:


      Wow, the absolute arrogance of Westminster is just remarkable. Jeremy Hunt today tweeted regarding Venezuela,

      “Nicolas Maduro has not called presidential elections within 8 day limit we have set” [my bolding]

      Could you imagine Putin dictating to Theresa May or the orange baby TRUMP to call an election within an 8 day time limit? If I were PRESIDENT Maduro, I’d pick up the phone to London, and demand Theresa May call an election within 8 days, before the UK descends into further disarray. Seriously, the Westminster Government is an utter shambles, and here they are telling other countries how to run their affairs. The utter hypocrisy is breathtaking.

      What we are seeing as regards Venezuela is the USA and IMF doing what they have done many times before in parts of America, manipulate funds and markets to destroy a countries economy, then demand a president resign, to be replaced by a USA puppet.

      Surely it couldn’t be anything to do with Venezuela having the world’s largest oil reserves, greater than Saudi Arabia?? yet the likes of the BBC and SKY ‘news’ report all this, as though Westminster has some kind of divine right to dictate who runs Venezuela, like such behaviour is somehow normal.

      Venezuela might be a mess right now, but it hasn’t got anything to do with President Maduro, this has all been created by the CIA and US government.

    270. Cactus says:

      Took a look and it turns out there are public galleries for viewing…

      SO it’s funny how the tv cameras never tilt-up to glance the audience.

      Mibbie there’s naeb’dy there!

    271. Petra says:

      Professor John Robertson:- “Will the Union Flag on Scottish produce strengthen the Tory and No Vote?”

    272. Dr Jim says:

      Why does England NOT despise the Welsh flag, in fact they find it quite cute, we often see news reports from Wales with Welsh flags fluttering away and nobody seems to be bothered about it

      The Scottish Saltire however is an entirely different thing the news actively cut away from showing that particular flag and even make greater efforts to show Union flags when filming in Scotland

      Wales is no threat to the English Union domination because they don’t consider it has any power, Scotland is a country and the Saltire is the symbol of our country so they blot it out whenever they can

      Remove the culture of a Nation and you conquer

    273. galamcennalath says:

      Petra says:

      Will the Union Flag on Scottish produce strengthen the Tory and No Vote?

      Interesting, though there seem not much research. And, what research there is relates to exposure to a person’s national flag.

      The Union Flag isn’t my national flag. I detest the sight of it. So my reaction is certainly not going to be the same as an American or Israeli viewing their flag. I think a better example of how I feel might be an Arab seeing an Israeli flag!

      However, does the appearance of Union Flags everywhere reinforce the BritNattery of BritNats? Does it make them feel even more conservative is attitude? The answer is probably yes.

    274. Cactus says:

      Now playing LIVE on your newest radio station Scotland…

      FOR AUDIO TuneIn 11AM – 2PM.
      Norrie Hunter Show.
      TEXT US: 07507 248856

      Drop em a text… request a groovy tune… say hiya.

      Enjoy your Monday lunches, Scotland.

    275. Sarah says:

      @Yesindyref2 circa 12.30 a.m.

      Dumfries fundraiser was mentioned by someone on here a couple of days ago so I took a look and will send a small donation today. I don’t know anyone in the community at all but perhaps you can get your very helpful info to them via the crowdfunder site? []

      A couple of points about how much they need – I always think of it in the number of tenners needed! At the moment they need 1900 people to send a tenner. As there were 10000 folk on the march [not including me] I thought they might well be up for a donation.

      And a plus point – the organisers say every donor will be a part-owner of the properties!

    276. gus1940 says:

      In 1978 I was present in The Strangers’ Gallery for the debate and voting on the 3rd reading of The Scotland Bill.

      It went on till the early hours and I had quite a scary walk back though deserted streets to my hotel.

      I just turned up on impulse, followed the signs, asked where to go and entered the chamber without any visible signs of security scanners or body search – no doubt a bit different nowadays.

    277. Sarah says:

      Further to my info about the Dumfries community fundraiser, the deadline is TODAY – the crowdfund page says 16 days but that is because they don’t do emergency time limited periods.

    278. Kangaroo says:

      I know we are all fairly well fixated on indy and so are not really paying attention to other matters. However this is likely to overtake the indy cause.

      Anonymous QAnon Update Deep State Cabal Exposed

      There are many other sources backing this information too. So it is not crackpot theory.

      They are also exposing the links between the Democrats, FBI and MI6 via Christopher Steele who created the Trump Russian collusion dossier. I understand that Steele is in court in London as he has been accused of libel/defamation by the people he included in the dossier and this info is being used to expose the Deep State in the USA.

      It is going to get very wild, very soon.

      Trump’s State of the Union address might be worth watching.

      The Murdoch controlled MSM in Oz is not reporting any of this. Same problem as MSM in UK and USA and other places.

    279. jfngw says:

      BBC Scotland feel they had a success by their continual bad news stories about Scotrail, such that having been continually told how awful it is they will start to agree, propaganda work, that’s why advertising works.

      With this success under their belt for the British State they have now moved on to scaring the shit out of pregnant mothers in the hope they will turn on the SNHS.

      They are an amoral corporation willing to plunge the depths to protect the British State.

    280. Breeks says:

      Petra says:
      4 February, 2019 at 10:25 am
      Additionally Breeks you stated at 6:24am … “the Constitutional sovereignty of Scotland”, which should in fact read the “sovereignty of the Scottish people”, imo.

      If such a case went to the ECJ the first thing that they would have to do is to ascertain who exactly constitutes being a sovereign Scot.

      Irrelevant. Scottish Sovereignty is well enough defined and capable of international recognition as it stands. But a long way back down the spectrum, well before the ironing out the intricacies of Scotland’s Constitution, there is the much simpler binary distinction that if Scotland is sovereign, the UK is not.

      That’s more than adequate Constitutional clarification to derail Scotland’s Brexit and stop it in its tracks. What competence or authority does Westminster exercise to overrule the will of Scotland’s Sovereign citizenry?

      There is no need to bog ourselves down in pedantic distinctions.

    281. David says:

      How do you prove abuse, if you boycott parliament. You can’t you can only complain if you take part and highlight it. Every working day our MPs have to grit their teeth and carry on representing their constituents. Every insult, every self-serving cat call, every sneering non answer from ministers re-enforces the evidence for indy. Not to me because I’m already convinced. But to those that thought we lived in an equal opertunity democracy. They got it wrong. I’m not an SNP member just a YES supporter. But I take my hat of to the brightest most intelligent team of MPs Scotland has ever sent to Westminster. Your resilience in adversity stands you proud.

    282. manandboy says:

      An Irishman, a Scotsman & and an Englishman all go for a pub lunch: Scot to waiter: I’ll have the Stovies. Irishman to waiter: I’ll have the Colcannon. Englishman to waiter: We’ll ALL have the ploughman’s Lunch, because that’s what *I* want. @tarisgal42

    283. Fireproofjim says:

      There are perhaps several valid reasons to consider delaying Inderef2 but the Alex Salmond case is not one.
      The case may take a year or more to be resolved and when the trial, if any, take place the media will be allowed to report proceedings and all will make sure that the worst possible slant is put on it for the SNP.
      At the moment the law bans them from reporting on the case.
      Anyway as others have mentioned, the Nationhood of Scotland is much more important than the outcome of any case and we should not allow these unfortunate events to alter our resolve in the slightest. It is totally irrelevant to Inderef2.
      I write as a great fan of Alex Salmond who was instrumental in getting us to our present position of power in Scotland and to whom we will always be indebted.

    284. With the question of the SNP MPs walking out of parliament I really can’t make up my mind but the last tlme. They walked out t,he SNP membership went up by thousands so maybe there is a clue there as to how people in Scotland would react

    285. HandandShrimp says:

      I see on Stu’s Twitter a couple of comments about criticism of Nos turning to Yes. In the unlikely event there are any Yes supporters here critical of No voters changing to Yes please go outside and slap your self across the face with a wet 4lb cod. It won’t make you any more sensible but it will be a more constructive use of your time.

    286. Luigi says:

      Kangaroo says:

      4 February, 2019 at 12:02 pm

      I know we are all fairly well fixated on indy and so are not really paying attention to other matters. However this is likely to overtake the indy cause.

      Anonymous QAnon Update Deep State Cabal Exposed

      There are many other sources backing this information too. So it is not crackpot theory.

      Don’t forget the yellow vests, Kangaroo. Now in its 12th week and getting violent. Macron clinging on for his life. His astro red scarf counter movement not working. And yet… absolutely nothing in the MSM “Oh Look a squirrel”.

      However, when it comes to the illegal coup in Venezuela, the MSM are all over it and hailing it as a triumph of democracy. Ay Right!

      S’funny old world. 🙂

    287. sandycraig says:

      Dr Jim 10.54 re oil.

      Be interesting to know exactly how many new oil/gas fields have been discovered or come onstream, since Ian Wood made all his pronouncements about how our energy industries would be buggered in a few years. Don’t hear much about him now.

    288. Petra says:

      @ Breeks at 12:22pm …… “What competence or authority does Westminster exercise to overrule the will of Scotland’s sovereign citizenry?

      What about 55% of Scotland’s sovereign citizenry voting to remain citizens of the UK in 2014?

      And before you start bleating on that 62% of sovereign Scots voted to remain in the EU, as part of the UK, we have no idea what percentage of them would prefer to continue to remain in a Brexited UK now. We also have no idea what percentage of the 38% of sovereign Scots, who voted to leave the EU, would prefer to remain part of the UK rather than in the EU with an Independent Scotland. That’s why it’s absolutely crucial, an imperative, to determine the current statistics through an Independence referendum. That can only be done when the Scots know what they will be voting for, hence Nicola Sturgeon waiting until this fiasco is clarified.

      Meanwhile it’s clear to most of us, and no doubt to the UN and the EU too, that we NEED a majority of sovereign Scots supporting Independence before we can rid ourselves of Westminter (England). In other words we should all be doing our utmost on here to point out the benefits of supporting the SNP / Yes movement in conjunction with making people aware of the MANY “negatives” of wanting to remain in the Union. Running down the SNP, practically on a daily basis, ain’t going to hack it. And who needs that on here as that’s exactly what the Unionist supporting MSM are doing, on a daily basis also, in an attempt to ensure that we lose.

    289. the last paragraph of my post @10:56 am.
      should have read as:
      Also it would be very difficult for any SNP Parliamentary
      candidate to ask people to vote for them and then tell voters they weren’t going to take their seats at Westminster.

      Sinn Fein may get away with that in Northern Ireland, because Northern Irish politics is different, I maybe wrong but I don’t see people in Scotland being prepared to accept that situation here.

      There is a difference between SNP MPs walking out of the chamber as protest, voters may tolerate that, but SNP MPs standing for election and then not taking up their seats at Westminster.

      in my view it would do a great deal of electoral damage to the SNP and would set our cause for independence back decades.

    290. Dr Jim says:

      @sandycraig 1.37pm

      Apparently the Claire Ridge field has more oil than was ever discovered in the entirety of the Brent field so much so that when discovered the BBC at the time reported it as enough to last the *UK* for another 50 years

      If you take the rest of the UK out of it it’s enough to finance Scotland for who knows how long, and the beauty is we don’t even need it domestically anymore

      Oh and Sir Ian Wood will without a shadow of a doubt pop up on our screens the minute the FM announces any kind of move on Independence to tell us there’s been a big mistake and all the oil fell through a hole and is in China now so best to forget about it all so he can be made up to Lord Ian Wood of Oilynuek of Scotland

    291. Alba 46 says:

      O/T A few thoughts/observations re Brexit

      Jaguar land Rover 4500 redundancies + supply chain knock on effect

      Airbus seriously rethinking their UK plants. 14000 directly employed with 140,000 in the supply chain

      Dyson moved lock stock and barrel to the far east – cheap labor.

      Barclays bank moving £190 Bn of assets to Dublin.

      European medicines agency moving to Amsterdam – loss of 800 jobs

      Nissan now building latest model in Japan due to Brexit. They along with Honda and Toyota probably scaling / moving lock stock and barrel after Brexit.

      Government appointed a minister of food. First time for many years. Shortages of food supplies and rationing being heavily touted. As a kid brought up on rationing after WW2 a treat was the top of my dads boiled egg. We really don’t want to go there.

      Food banks have exploded in the last 5 years. Brexit goes ahead watch the next 5 years.

      British Nationalists Tory and Labour variety know nothing or care about Brexit. There are many multi millionaires in both camps who couldn’t give a toss about poverty and the deprived. They have the UJ mentality of “i’m all right Jack, f*ck you”

      Reece Moog moves his company to Ireland to benefit from being part of the EU but spouts that Brexit is a good thing. Yeh for him and his ilk.

      Torys, labour at westminster, May and Corbyn are not part of the solution, they ARE the problem. Nothing will ever be resolved as long as these to incompetents are remotely anywhere near power.

      As for Davidson/Carlaw, leonard and wee wullie what is there left to say. Their paymasters and loyalties lie with another country and system. They are like cuckoos in the nest of Holyrood. They proclaim to be Scottish but further the cause of westminster. They are noth but Piccadilly highlanders.

      For those who don’t support Independence, if you think the situation after Independence is not clear and may be a bit rocky to start with you ain’t seen nothing yet. Brexit is a bloody disaster.

      For Gods sake waken up, we are heading back to rationing, deprivation, unemployment and Gods knows what else. Get a bloody grip

      We need be in charge of our own destiny through Independence. At least any mistakes we make will be our own and not those of a foreign government.

    292. Dr Jim says:

      Every five years we are supposed to have political elections to the various parliaments to decide whether we’ve changed our minds about who should make the decisions for us

      When it comes to decisions the Westminster government don’t want anybody to change their minds on they’ve invented the idea that referendums are forever..ish unless they decide differently especially in Scotland …or oh Ireland or well anywhere they don’t want the people changing their minds on stuff the Westminster brigade don’t want people changing their minds on and their supporters drink it up like the Coolade it is

      Referendums in England and Wales are meaningless anyway because the peoples of those countries are not in any way shape or form sovereign, it’s the parliament which is sovereign and can reject any decision of the people at any time

      In Scotland the people are sovereign not the parliament, thus the Scottish parliament, thanks to our ancestors exists to serve the people

    293. robbo says:

      Snap election is coming – i feel in my fingers, i feel it in my bones.

      Better let Brenda know .

    294. Dr Jim says:

      We had the VOW, we had the Smith Commission then the UK gave themselves three votes to two on that commission to deny Scotland the powers they promised with the VOW

      Tory Labour and Liberal Democrat parties are not Scottish political parties, they’re British parties in Scotland so of course they were going to vote against every power that was promised, leaving the only two constituted Scottish parties once again frozen out

      The people who are going to definitely vote NO on any referendum will not move or alter their opinion because what they believe isn’t about governance or finance or fairness or prosperity or hope or in fact any view of the world at all that doesn’t include English dominance because it’s who and what they are and any conversation with these people is pointless in the extreme and only leads to even more belligerance on their part

      Ignore them and move on, remember these are the people who support *the hostile environment* they’re not nice people who need convincing, they’re the problem and will never be a part of the solution

      Maybe Scotland should adopt an *apathetic environment* to these people

    295. Petra says:

      Last gasp BBC coverage of attempting to turn people off of Scottish independence (IndyRef 1 on BBC in a couple of weeks time) and the EU (‘Inside Europe: Ten Years of Turmoil’ – BBC2 tonight).

      Anyone thought of producing a programme entitled, ‘Inside the UK: Ten Years of Dictatorship, Destruction, Debt, Doldrums, Death and Disaster?’

    296. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Petra says at 1:48 pm.

      “That’s why it’s absolutely crucial, an imperative, to determine the current statistics through an Independence referendum.”

      I don’t think that’a strictly necessary. There are rumours flying around over the past day or two, suggesting a general election in May or June.

      If there is, then the top of the SNP’s manifesto should be along the lines of that if a majority of independence supporting MPs are returned from Scottish constituencies, then that will be taken as a mandate to declare independence, revoking the Treaty of Union, etc.

      People will KNOW what they’re voting for when they put their X beside the SNP candidate.

      Thus no need for a referendum or Section 30 request. Fait accompli, partly with thanks to Maggie Thatcher.

    297. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I fully support the policy of allowing immigration to this country from the EU. The Poles, in particular, have added much to British life.

      But, that said, I would definitely support the repatriation of Daniel Kawczynski MP back to his native Poland.

    298. Capella says:

      @ sandycraig – SIR Ian Wood, if you don’t mind – and even if you do mind.

      I seem to recall he said it would all run out in 2017. Oh look – that was 2 years ago. GMS will have him on soon to update us on when the oil will run out.

      @ Kangaroo – the last Anonymous video said that Trump would put the US back on the gold standard and that this would be announced by Jan 21st at Davos.

      I’m not aware of any such announcement. Have I missed it?

    299. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert Louis says: 3 February, 2019 at 11:33 pm:

      ” … RP playing the man not the ball, just because he doesn’t like somebody else’s legitimate viewpoint.

      No, Robert Louis, I’m attacking your consistent anti-SNP views.

      ” … Shame, RP sometimes talks sense, when he isn’t resorting to personal insults.”

      As for personal insults, have I claimed anything that isn’t true? Your logic is flawed and you do constantly air anti-SG, anti-FM and anti-SNP views. As others, as well as myself have remarked no other political party is going to win back Scottish independence so, logically, it is counter productive to run them down – especially as you have absolutely no proof whatsoever they are not correct in the way they are going about that little matter of gaining back Scotland’s independence.

      You post comments here on Wings as if you, and only you are right and the SNP/SG, and the FM in particular, are wrong with your only offered evidence being your humble, (cough!), opinion that Robert Louis knows best.

      There are ways and means to change the SNP/SG and FM’s views and ways of doing. They all depend upon the individual’s criticisms being channelled through the party at branch and Constituency Association level.

      A comment on an open forum, any open forum, is acting against the best interests of the independence movement. It does so just by being aired in an open forum and it cannot in any case, change the SNP/SG/FM’s views or actions.

      This for the simple reason that the SNP as a party, (and hence the SG and FM), are a bottom up led party. No one person can change the SNP’s party aims and policies.

      Only a properly proposed and seconded motion at a branch can trigger a new, or change or amend existing, party policy. It must also either have been unopposed or been debated and voted upon at branch and passed onto the Constituency Association where that process is also followed. Nicola Sturgeon can no more dictate party policy than I can.

      What is more she could not do so by proclamation or by any other means than by the stated method. In short you are wasting your time and ours drip! drip! Dripping! your constant disapproval here or on any open forum. The only effect is to provide ammunition to the MSM and unionists who just love it when they perceive, “Civil WAR”, IN THE SNP.

      Make no mistake, Robert Louis, it matters not to the MSM/unionists whether such negative views are stated by party members or not – far as they are concerned such negativity is coming from the SNP membership.

      To the best of my knowledge there really is no war, civil or otherwise, within the party. Nicola does not tell the party what to do – the party tells Nicola what to do.

      Which is exactly why Nicola often asks for a mandate, and often it is not just sked from party members but from a majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland.

      When you spout your anti-Nicola claptrap you are not just insulting Nicola, the SG and the SNP – you are insulting the majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland.

      criticise from within the party and that’s part of the system – do it on an open forum and you are part of the enemy.

    300. sandycraig says:

      Petra 2.39

      You forgot Duplicity.

    301. Dr Jim says:

      @Robert Peffers 2.59pm

      If yer no fur us yer agin us

      No argument from me on that, if ye cannae beat them go and get mair tae beat them, and then mair again till ye do

    302. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Who ever heard of a country where you’re standing on the beach at St Andrews and you’re in Scotland but if you go for a paddle you’re in England?”

      @Dr Jim 11.25: you make that point most succinctly. The theft of 6000 square miles of our waters is something I always remember as I pass that verdigris monstrosity of The Great Humbug, Donald Dewar, which stands at the top of Glasgow’s Buchanan Street. He and Teflon Tony Blair sneaked that piece of legislation in just before our parliament was reconvened, as a final two fingers to us all from our Imperial Masters.

      That dismal thought is then followed by the incredible strong urge to buy a giant hacksaw.

      Unfortunately Crocket’s seems to have closed down.

      “There shall be a Scottish Parliament.” Yeah, but not the one you intended, Donald.

    303. Ron Maclean says:

      From: ‘About us’ – next to ‘Home’

      ‘The site advocates Scottish independence, but is not affiliated or connected in any way to the SNP, and neither gives to or receives money from the party, nor indeed any other party. We have an inquiring mind, and welcome intelligent contributions from all sides of the political debate.

      Got something worthwhile to say about Scotland’s future? Try us.’

      Btl attempts to close down commenters are becoming an unpleasant feature of this site.

    304. Giving Goose says:

      Those who claim to be Scottish and serve the interests of another country are not Scottish.
      Do not refer to them as such; it’s insulting to those of us who are genuinely Scottish.
      To be Scottish is to believe in Scotland, regardless of your origin. BritNats do not believe in Scotland.

    305. Brian Powell says:

      BBC IndyRef 1 on BBC? The ‘victor’ writes the history.

      The longer we wait the more this happens.

    306. Sunshine says:

      Maybe the Scottish Parliament should try to unilaterally revoke article 50, in so much as it affects Scotland, or extend it.
      Is there anything to stop that happening, even if it were found to be unlawful it would ruffle a few feathers. Just thinking of ways to keep the pot simmering away until the final showdown.

    307. yesindyref2 says:

      @HandandShrimp “In the unlikely event there are any Yes supporters here critical of No voters changing to Yes please go outside and slap your self across the face with a wet 4lb cod

      I always think there’s something fishy about such “Yes supporters”.

    308. Republicofscotland says:

      Is Italy taking a moralistic stance against the illegal coup underway in Venezuela? Or are the Italian politicians seeking some sort of leverage in Brussels.

      “BRUSSELS (Reuters) – Italy on Monday blocked a joint European Union position to recognize Venezuela’s National Assembly head Juan Guaido as interim president, diplomatic sources said.”

    309. Dr Jim says:

      yesindyref2 3.53pm

      There’s always a Plaice for them

    310. Petra says:

      @ Brian at 2:39pm …. “General Election.”

      Don’t forget Brian that will exclude 16/17 year olds and EU National’s votes, which I reckon we’ll need.

      My preference would be to see who wins a GE first. The toerag Tories or hapless Labour and if the Tories will select a new leader that even more Scots would detest. If the Tories were to win I reckon that many Labour supporters, who would support Corbyn in a GE, would then support Nicola in a follow-up IndyRef2.


      @ sandycraig at 3:03pm ….. “You forgot Duplicity.”

      Spot on Sandy. There’s also Despair and Depression.

      And that’s just some of the “D’s”.

    311. geeo says:

      Apologies if already posted upthread.

      Some No to Yes views from Angus Robertson’s Progress Scotland survey.

      This one nails it for me.

      Politics student and young LibDem member Chris Wilson, from Lanarkshire, says: “As a proud LibDem, Scot and European, I believe we must respect the EU referendum result in Scotland. The EU empowers young people like myself with the Erasmus Scheme, while advocating civil liberties and basic human rights. LibDems like me will have to make a choice sooner or later about which Union we prefer. I choose for Scotland to set its own path as a progressive, socially democratic society within the European Union, not as part of an increasingly right-wing intolerant United Kingdom.”

      Are you listening, Rennie ?

    312. mike cassidy says:

      Capella 2.49

      America came fully off the gold standard in order to create the petrodollar and enjoy the benefits thereof.

      So you can see why they might want to reverse that decision.

      And repatriation of gold held in America may not be that straightforward.

      I wonder if they’ve spent it!

    313. call me dave says:

      Big Auntie darn Sarf has picked up this story from twitter.

      Shrewsbury MP Daniel Kawczynski under fire over Marshall Plan tweet.

    314. mike cassidy says:

      call me dave 4.06

      Maybe somebody should send Kawczynski this link.

      The plain truth is that the Labour Government in the late 1940s sought to use Marshall Aid much as the Conservatives used the rake-off from North Sea oil in the 1980s – as a general subsidy for whatever they wished to do, like clinging on to the dream of a world power role.

    315. Sunshine says:

      Trying to post a link to a Pillar of Rights that the EU are about to bring in, with an online scoreboard to easily see which countries are abiding by the Rights.
      Thought it maybe interesting to some, but I haven’t posted a link before, so excuse me if it doesn’t work.

    316. mike cassidy says:

      Merkel drops hint of a ‘creative’ Brexit Irish backstop compromise

    317. mike cassidy says:

      Sunshine 4.23

    318. Clootie says:

      Many years ago Shell tried to break Sir Ian Wood’s grip on their manpower services. They awarded the contract at the renewal date to PSN. Sir Ian then bought PSN and created WGPSN. He is a service supplier NOT an expert on Oil & Gas.

      I would not ask one of the main catering companies for an opinion on Oil & Gas Production so why ask a maintenance and construction manpower supplier?

    319. Capella says:

      @ mike cassidy – thx for links. I just wondered if it had happened and I’d missed it. The video said that the shut down of the US government was to facilitate going back on the gold standard. I’m curious.

      An interesting para from the Chris Hedges article:

      The historian Ronald Robinson argued that British imperial rule died “when colonial rulers had run out of indigenous collaborators.” The result, he noted, was that the “inversion of collaboration into noncooperation largely determined the timing of the decolonization.”
      This process of alienating traditional U.S. allies and collaborators will have the same effect. As McCoy points out, “all modern empires have relied on dependable surrogates to translate their global power into local control—and for most of them, the moment when those elites began to stir, talk back, and assert their own agendas was also the moment when you knew that imperial collapse was in the cards.”

    320. North chiel says:

      “ Petra @ 0239 pm “. Yes Petra BBC , “ now for” the propaganda “ where you are” .

    321. sandy says:

      English MPs serve the Queen of England, Scottish MPs serve the people of Scotland. Except, of course, the Unionist ones.
      In other words, ("Tractor" - Ed)s to their country. Does the death penalty still exist for this heinous crime?

    322. Brian Powell says:

      I would think Merkel would just come out and say what she intends, rather than hint at something.

    323. Scott says:

      Theresa May to give Brexit speech from Northern Ireland

      Will she be offering more to DUP and poor Scotland gets shafted

    324. sandycraig says:

      Clootie 4.38

      I think you are correct. I always wondered why he was thought to be the voice of oil and gas, when he doesn’t actually own any of these businesses. As you say he provides services to the oil industry, very successfully, but I doubt very much if he would be involved in any discussions directly involved with oil discovery etc, until the companies are ready to announce their findings.

    325. wull2 says:

      Today my body says I am 104, my brain says I am 35, a bit of paper says that I am 65, my brain says it is correct, so I think I will go with my heart and vote independence.

    326. call me dave says:

      @ mike cassidy

      Thanks for that link to Marshall Aid Plan.

      Oil and Sir Ian Wood Auntie wie a kilt’s expert:

      Sydney Toler say:

      “Expert merely person who make quick decision – and is sometimes right”

      Sydney Toler. Charlie Chan. 🙂

    327. sandy says:

      Caplla & others:
      Please note that Ian Wood (I don’t recognise English offered titles or so-called honours like FBEMs or MFBEs) is NOT a geologist, he was head of a service company at the mercy of oil giants.

      Incidentally, I believe most of all Wood Group financial affairs, pay, NI, etc., are now conducted outwith the UK.

    328. Iain mhor says:

      We have two Governments and one Parliament, there is no Union of Parliaments. We have two different representatives attempting to govern for Scotland. MP’s at Westminster and MSP’s at Holyrood.

      No sane person could want this for Scotland surely? Yet it is what we have. It is why the British Nationalists believe we are insane. Can we not just pick one bloody Parliament and Government and abolish everything else – that is logical. They believe they did pick that option and Holyrood should be abolished. Unfortunately the majority of Scots ARE insane and they actually voted for and want a Devo Max union of… What exactly does Scotland want?

      Well, Scotland, by any measure so far, appeared to overwhelmingly want its own Government but a Union of Parliaments. Instead it got the opposite, its own Parliament and a Union of Government – The British Nationalists pissed themselves laughing at that stitch-up.

      When the penny finally drops in Scotland, independence will follow.

    329. I see they are Russia bashing at UK parliament again,

      same old gammons and ex forces MP`s wanting the Brutish Empire to rule the waves again,(all it does now is waive the rules),

      blaming Russia for Trump pulling out of Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty,

      which according to some `experts` suits Putin more than US/Nato,

      the slanderous attack on Alex Salmond, through the UK state funded anti Russian Integrity Initiative,was more or as much about his roll with legitimising the Russian broadcaster RT than Indy2.

    330. cynicalHighlander says:

      Expurts are nothing more than a drip from a tap under pressure.

    331. jfngw says:

      Don’t worry the BBC in Scotland is very interested in the FM’s visit to the USA. At this minute they have their top investigation team querying hotel costs, counting how many people attended and any other associated costs. The reason for the visit will of course be of minor importance.

    332. Pogo says:

      Boycott but only when we are Ready to set and communicate indyref 2 date.

    333. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Petra says at 3:56 pm.

      You typed,
      “Don’t forget Brian that will exclude 16/17 year olds and EU National’s votes, which I reckon we’ll need.”

      I had a look at the latest opinion poll from Opinium and downloaded the data tables.

      I then went to Electoral Calculus and entered the “headline voting intention” percentages for Tory, Labour, Lib Dem, UKIP and Greens.

      This predicted 41 seats for the SNP.

      I then entered the figures for “all parties” into Electoral Calculus.

      This predicted 51 seats for the SNP.

      I’m no expert on analysing poll data but “if there were a general election tomorrow” it would appear that the SNP would have a comfortable majority of the Scottish seats, so the votes of 16/17 year old and residents from elsewhere in the EU would not be needed.

      Therefore, if the SNP had independence in their manifesto, we’d be all set, cookin’ beh gas an’ thah, to declare independence.

    334. robbo says:

      Ooh the fishermen won’t be happy . Seems they’ll be sold out again in the CFP transition period being extended by a year as part of this new con trick being discussed by Tories.
      Well. who’d of thot it eh!

      On BBC news just now.

      So predictions above Brian could be spot on with NE cons losing all their seats.

    335. schrodingers cat says:

      i think progress scotland is a useful group and their desire to carry out polling for us is what is needed.

      1. find out if there is a majority support for indyref2

      2. find out what the level of support for yes is

      3. find out what will encourage people to sipport the above, eg, what currency, eu or efta, the effects of brexit etc.

      at the moment, the unionists main argument against indyref2 is the claim the majority of scots dont support it. letss find out. the only poll ive seen lately was a completely skewed poll by siu which used very misleading questions and answers (leave/remain) in what appeared a deliberate attempt to confuse the electorate and produce a result they could use to beat us with.

      we can do better than that. indeed, we need to. we need to know where we stand on all of the point above

    336. robbo says:

      Also glad that wee runt in Ayr will possibly lose his. That’s a Rupert if ever i seen wan! .

    337. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Further on “Progress Scotland”.

      A quote from:-

      “However the reality is that unless we persuade soft Noes to come over to Yes, we’re not going to win independence. That means that in order to build a majority, we need to attract the support of people who supported the No cause in 2014. The more prominent that person was in their support for No in 2014, the greater the influence that they are able to have on other soft Noes who are now wavering in their support for the British state because of the mess of Brexit. If you are a committed supporter of independence and have been for years, that’s great, but you’re not the target audience here.

      When you read the reasons that these prominent No voters give for coming over to the cause of independence, it is striking that they don’t talk so much about the positive reasons for independence, but rather more about their disenchantment and loss of faith in the institutions of the British state and the ability of the UK to represent Scotland and defend Scottish interests.”

    338. hackalumpoff says:

      First Minister speech at Georgetown University

    339. geeo says:


      Unless there is a miracle and treeza gets a deal past parliament, the fishing argument/story, today, is, well…a ‘red herring’!!

      Just to reiterate, NO Deal = NO Transition period.

    340. Robert Louis says:

      RP at 259pm

      Robert Peffers Wittering on again in an over lengthy diatribe, insulting people, just because they do not accept his personal viewpoint on the whole world. Shame, when he is not insulting people, he sometimes talks sense.

    341. Golfnut says:

      @ Sandy.

      No, hanging is out, even for treason, but they would be tried under England’s 1351 treason laws foisted on Scots law in 1708, ironic eh.

    342. geeo says:

      There are only 4 things certain in life.



      Scottish Independence.

      Who knows the 4th ?

      (Be creative if you like, just bit fun).

    343. Gary says:

      It’d leave the Unionists saying that SNP were just Scotland’s Sinn Fein and they’d belittle the party and it’s policies ensuring that this further polarised the argument for independence along the lines of ‘religion’ which is something they’ve been trying very hard to do since the date for the Indy Ref was announced.

      This ‘works’ for Sinn Fein purely because politics in NI are already drawn sharply along ‘religious’ lines and no further polarisation is possible. I think if it WERE possible to step back from that polarisation then Sinn Fein would do so gladly as logic is on the side of those favouring reunification.

      NB the quotation marks around the word ‘religion’ are because those who claim to be religious in NI and yet support extremism are rarely actually religious…

    344. ScottishPsyche says:

      So if you are critical of the SNP or the FM on this site there is no place for your opinion?

      Let me get this right, if you want to criticise the SNP you must be a member and go through the party machine in private otherwise you are ‘agin us’ and basically the enemy? Posters here regularly disparage others’ opinions as if there is only one acceptable way of supporting Independence. This is very wrong and strange.It is ‘groupthink’ on an extraordinary scale.

      So I am out of here for good.

      I wish you all well and was thinking of coming along on March 2nd to put some names to faces but I would not feel welcome under these circumstances and have not felt welcome on this site for some time now. At least it is clear. Maybe a set of rules for new commentators should be available as the Rev’s don’t seem to cover this rigid fundamentalist thinking?

    345. robbo says:

      ScottishPsyche says:
      4 February, 2019 at 7:34 pm
      So if you are critical of the SNP or the FM on this site there is no place for your opinion?

      What posts, on what thread are you referring to auld chap? Hard to scroll back -easier to know to which posts offend you?

    346. cynicalHighlander says:

      geeo says:
      4 February, 2019 at 7:11 pm

      There are only 4 things certain in life.



      Scottish Independence.

      Who knows the 4th ?

      Death of all human lifeform.

    347. North chiel says:

      “ Brian doonthetoon@ 0638” , although I generally agree with the option of a GE for Independence, especially if alternative routes are denied by the Westminster establishment, ( Notwithstanding our people’s sovereignty)I would suggest that this option if progressed would lead to major collusion between the London Britnat parties both at Westminster and thereafter at local constituency level, whereby a “ favoured unionist candidate” would emerge and the remaining two London HQ’d Britnat candidates would desist from any form of genuine campaigning in each and every constituency. In this scenario every vote would count and EU residents and 16/17 year olds might well have made the difference if Independence was lost by a narrow margin . In fact the majority of estimated 250,000 EU voters “ NO” in 2014 ( to remain in the EU “ how ironic”,) quite possibly narrowly lost us the vote.( although I recognise the vote would have to have been circa 80 pc) ?? Not sure if it has been researched/ estimated??

    348. robbo says:

      ScottishPsyche says:
      4 February, 2019 at 7:34 pm
      robbo says:
      4 February, 2019 at 7:38 pm
      ScottishPsyche says:
      4 February, 2019 at 7:34 pm
      So if you are critical of the SNP or the FM on this site there is no place for your opinion?

      What posts, on what thread are you referring to auld chap? Hard to scroll back -easier to know to which posts offend you?

      Thanks-Well i just wasted 5 mins of my precious life- this sad man just scrolled back and found NO post on this thread from you????? Unless i missed it and need specs/

    349. OT

      Screaming at the radio this morning .. more nonsense on BBC radio hootsmon.

      Reporting on the First Minister’s trip to America, they only pushed the narrative that Trump will not be seeing her.

      This was never the intention of her visit, nor was there a request to meet him.
      Rather than report on why she was there – it pushed the story that she had been snubbed.

    350. gus1940 says:

      I used to think that The Daily Mail was the worst example of Fascistic Nationalism one could possibly find in the Britnat Dead Tree Press.

      However, I recently added The Daily Express to my list of on-line blats to which I subject myself daily.

      It is unbelievable – like stepping into another world filled with Hitler like racist and xenophobic ranting.

      How anybody could consider it to be a newspaper – it is just 100% propaganda and lies the like of which Goebbels would be proud.

    351. Petra says:

      @ Brian at 6:38pm …… “51 seats.”

      Thanks for taking the time to delve into all of that data Brian and I hope that you’re right. I shuuuuurley doooooo, especially if the Bakers Dozen are kicked into the long grass. 51 seats without 16 / 17 year olds / EU Nat votes? Excuse my ignorance in advance, lol, but would that equate to over 50% of sovereign Scots voting for the SNP / Independence?


      @ Geeo at 7:11pm …. “There are only 4 things certain in life. Who knows the 4th?”

      The boring answer is “taxes.”

      The more creative, IMO, is the “implosion of Westminster and the HoL’s.”

    352. Sunshine says:

      Mike Cassidy
      Thanks for posting that link for me Mike. It’s small things like you taking the time to do that that helps people to post.

    353. @hackalumpoff,

      absolute flawless speech by Nicola,

      articulate, intelligent and compassionate,

      `conversation not confrontation`.

    354. galamcennalath says:

      hackalumpoff says:

      First Minister speech at Georgetown University

      Brilliant speech. I genuinely believe there is no politician at WM who could deliver such a strong message. A stateswoman of the highest calibre.

      Every ‘doubting Thomas’ needs to listen to that – Nicola has her country’s interests foremost in everything she says and does. She will deliver us from this wicked Union.

    355. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi geeo at 7:11 pm.

      You typed,

      “There are only 4 things certain in life.



      Scottish Independence.

      Who knows the 4th ?

      (Be creative if you like, just bit fun).”

      Here you are…

    356. Petra says:

      Oops (7:52pm) should read, “The Commons and the HoL’s.”

      You all know what I meant anyway, I’m sure, lol.

    357. Dr Jim says:

      She’s a star at the speeches is Nicola and solid as a rock and keeps the folk listening but not boring them soley with her point of view, and that’s not easy in a lengthy speech to folk in another country who’ve got their own problems

      The FM just keeps stacking up the allies for when the time comes

    358. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Brian Doonthetoon

      Is it a ridiculous number of penalties for Rangers every season?

    359. Shinty says:

      hackalumpoff says:
      4 February, 2019 at 7:03 pm
      “First Minister speech at Georgetown University”

      Thank you for the link, brilliant speech by our FM.

    360. One_Scot says:

      With regard to Nicola Sturgeon’s speech, I have said it before and I don’t mind saying it again, when it comes to #IndyRef2, I believe Nicola has to take the lead in the Independence campaign, as I don’t think there is anyone else who can deliver the result we are all hoping for as well as Nicola can.

      Not sure that is worded that well, but I’m sure you know what I mean.

    361. geeo says:

      This was a link at the top of a Sky News website story.

      Laughingly titled: Why you can trust Sky News.

      Sky News:

      Honestly, do not read if you have recently had surgical stiches put in….talk about having ZERO self awareness.

    362. geeo says:

      @BDTT 8.01pm.

      Nice one !!

    363. Dr Jim says:

      BBC are complaining the FM never gave them enough notice to send *journalists* to the US to rubbish her speech

      Which is strange in a way because according to the FMs Twitter the Yoons are desperate to see the FMs speech who they say doesn’t represent them so they can say she’s rubbish too

      There’s something mentally irregular about screaming hatred for the leader of your country yet at the same time complaining they aren’t seeing her represent our country when they maintain constantly that they don’t want to see her at all

      Do Yoons know what’s going on between their ears or are they only capable of running around in white mice circles looking for the cheese that isn’t there but still shitting in their own cage

      BTW I’m not sure what I meant there, it was an image that just came to mind of *The Yoon* Wee courin timorous beastie o whit a panic’s in thy breastie

    364. Dr Jim says:

      @One Scot

      Worded just fine man/woman, just fine!

    365. Kangaroo says:

      Re: An0nym0us

      1. Gold Standard. This was supposed to happen simultaneously with the DAVOS meeting. This has been delayed due to significant counter measures from the Deep State. This will happen, timing is an issue though.

      2. Venezuela. The recognition of an interim president is a coup attempt by the Deep State, just like, Libya, Syria and Ukraine. Watch for them now transferring Venezuelan Gold to another party with the Agreement of their new puppet president. The first step was to refuse to return the gold held in the Bank of England some 185tons or thereabouts. Theft on a grand scale.
      The recognition of Guaido by UK, France, Germany etc shows just how far the Deep State is embedded into World Governments. It is the same people behind the ‘New W0rld 0rder’

      I am trying to keep up-to-date on all that is happening on this in the USA, but it is moving fast and there are measures, countermeasures, faints, bluffs, distractions all happening simultaneously. There are many sources all spewing out different takes on the same matters. Difficult therefore to sort wheat from chaff. The same problem exists with the MSM as in Scotland, all owned by the wrong people, hence ‘fake news’.

    366. Confused says:

      Peak Bella has been reached –

      “Nuclear Weapons are a Feminist Issue”

      top that you cis-nazi alt-nat frog-poster literally-hitlers …

      comments mostly, WTF

      next up – nukes are racist because people of colour are burned more easily by them – we need non-racist weapons that burn everyone equally

    367. Haggishunter says:

      Most people are pissed off with politics because the U.K. has created a bunch of elitists who don’t give a monkeys for the average person.
      Probably better the SNP stop going to Westminster and form their own assembly to represent Scotland’s interests

    368. ronnie anderson says:

      hackahlumpoff Thanksfor the Nicola link N, shared to Yes pages

    369. ScottieDog says:

      Pro-brexit maw in law staying with us…

      Ex-pats are good – they benefit the country. (I pointed out they are immigrants)

      Immigrants here – bad. Cheap labour, taking jobs etc etc.

      Oh, yeah great registering at docs today day (after wintering in the med). None of the doctors were foreign.

      3 more weeks of this to go.

      There may be blood.

    370. Dr Jim says:

      Damn foreign doctors curing you of stuff

    371. Petra says:

      The Sun News:-

      Rooth the Mooth (Dirty Money Davidson) “plans to return from maternity leave on the 4th May by delivering her keynote speech to the party’s spring conference in Aberdeen.”

    372. Kangaroo says:

      Re: Indyref

      Well I thought I knew what NS was up to, but clearly I was wrong.

      I would prefer indyref before Brexit because WM will have control afterwards and IMHO they will move quickly to eliminate the risks of indy and clamp down on Scotland. I thought the budget defeat would put a Holyrood Election on the table around 28Mar with the express MANDATE that a vote for indy parties was a vote to Dissolve the Union. That would have made it clear to everyone and given No Remainers a juicy dilemma.

    373. Dr Jim says:

      @Kangaroo 9.32pm

      Nobody knows what the FMs up to that’s why I think there’s so much consternation and fuss about it

      She’s damn good at keeping this under her hat, no leaks no clues no nuthin

    374. ScottieDog says:

      “Nobody knows what the FMs up to that’s why I think there’s so much consternation and fuss about it”
      I think it’s bloody brilliant!

    375. Petra

      Oh dear, sad news. Life has been SO much better without the whinging and squeaking of (t)Ruthless.
      May 4th!!! We could be out of the EU by then and if there is a backstop in the deal she will have to announce her resignation in her return speech. Look on the bright side!

    376. Petra – forgot to say- there are rumours of a GE on the D-Day anniversary 6th june ( about 5 weeks after her return to politics )

    377. Kangaroo says:

      When you read this you might think I have a Roo loose in the top paddock as theybsay over here.

      I don’t know where to begin with this story. However I know of the background information and so I am leaning heavily towards it being 100% true.

      New Wikileaks exposes, Vatican, Jesuits and Knights of Malta.

      There are some choice statements in here, including the “Queen swears allegiance to the Pope via her oath to the Knights of Malta”.

      I can hear the DUP screaming from here.

      Just to give you some backup to that story, here is a link to the Jesuit Oath, really sick evil people

      In fact that whole website is worth bookmarking and reviewing, it links all these ‘Secret Orders including such as the Masons.

      Anyone disbelieving this stuff can also read his book or watch a youtube by Robert Sepher ‘1666 – Redemption through Sin’. This is the ‘Sin’ Sepher was referring to. Paedophilia.

      Apologies to those of you with delicate stomachs as this is going to be excruciating.

      Trump was a Jesuit and is trying to clean out the ‘Deep State’. This is what the Deep State actually is, a Satanic Paedophile ring with tentacles everywhere.

    378. Thepnr says:


      I’m sure that there must be other sites for posting that stuff where they will genuinely be interested.

      As you know this site concerns itself with Scottish politics, the media in the UK and Scottish Independence. I think we need stick to that as best we can, wouldn’t do to be distracted would it?

    379. robbo says:

      Aye Kangaroo and am Jason Bourne – whit yi gonnae dae aboot it

    380. Petra says:

      @ Meg at 9:54pm …… “Oh dear, sad news.”

      If ever there was “fortunate timing” for a politician, a Scottish Tory politician, to have a baby and go on maternity leave, this must be it. No hard questions put to U-turn Davidson for months now, then she”ll swan back in when the dust has settled … maybe …. followed with her cries of “No Surrender.” One wonders what her NIrish partner makes of it all? Then again she may be a lesbian, another one, who just happens to support the DUP too. If so the mind boggles.

    381. jfngw says:

      BBC Scotland, a bit like Trump and his Mexican wall, we are going to feed you BritNat propaganda and we are going to make you pay for it. The only difference is the we are pay for it, as for the Mexicans I think they are an independent country.

    382. Wonder how Ruthie is surviving with only Statutory Maternity Pay,

      `the first 6 weeks: 90% of their average weekly earnings (AWE) before tax,

      the remaining 33 weeks: £145.18 or 90% of their AWE (whichever is lower),`

      from £7000 a week to £145.18 a week,

      wonder if there is a way of checking she is being treated like every other parent on SMP.

    383. Phronesis says:

      The political system is broken, Brexit hammering the final nail in the Tory/Labour coffin.
      It is a fitting epitaph for the demise of the UK which has never been supportive of equal partnership nor democratic representation. A progressive Scotland must build its future under its own terms- strong and stable.

      ‘First, this government is so paralysed by internal division that it is incapable of pursuing any coherent policy in the negotiations. As long as it is in office but not in power, the UK is therefore on track to leave the EU on 29th March 2019 with “no deal”…all these considerations lead many observers to the conclusion that Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn are objective allies in the matter of Brexit: she believing that her Party’s interests demand British withdrawal from the EU, while he believes the same holds true for his Party… The Brexit debate has raised fundamental questions about the viability of both the Conservative and Labour Parties in their present form.

      The chaos of “no deal Brexit” will undoubtedly be the final nail in their twin coffins, but it is likely to come at the cost of great suffering and instability for the United Kingdom as a whole’

    384. Kangaroo says:

      @Thepnr @robbo

      If it is not of interest then just skip past it. No harm done.

    385. geeo says:

      Petra says:

      4 February, 2019 at 9:23 pm

      The Sun News:-

      Rooth the Mooth (Dirty Money Davidson) “plans to return from maternity leave on the 4th May by delivering her keynote speech to the party’s spring conference in Aberdeen.”

      Let me help it along a bit.

      (t)Ruthless: “I am so proud to stand here today at the Scottish Tory and unionist conference, despite the small detail that Scotland has already become independent in my absence, and as such, i can no longer sit as an MSP as a ‘Scottish’ Tory, as i now represent a Political Party from another country.

      Thanks for coming though, murdo…”

    386. geeo says:

      Actually, kangaroo, you say “no harm done”, but I suggest plenty harm done if people reading this site for its primary purpose (SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE and exposing the MSM for what we know they are, to embolden people we want to vote Yes, by arming them with checkable evidence of the facts, so they can decide for themselves armed with a clearer perspective) think that such inane ramblings are representative of the Yes movement or its goals and ambitions.

      I see no reason at all to indulge your utterly risable conspiracy garbage.

      If you cannot handle being called on such garbage, you picked the wrong place to post it.

    387. Tackety Beets says:

      Much as I like the idea of telling WM to get stuffed & bring our MPs home, I agree they need to sit tight & soak up ther trash for now.
      Breeks , if you are reading, I totally feel the same frustration & have been feeling a bit scunnered these last few months.
      Alas tonight I am a bit excited, as my next few words will reveal.

      Without exposing a friend who voted NO in 2014. Believe me I tried very hard to get thro’ & often thought I had succeeded only to be dashed as he just seamed to have this backstop of vote NO ! Grrrrr

      I respected his view like you do with a pal. I was often struggling to hold it together in 2013 / 14
      My tactic then & still is, gently debunk things as they come up.
      Reading endlessly here is fantastic for such info.

      Anyway we move forward to recent times.
      He is a Brexiteer so voting for “iScotland in EU” is not on in 100 years.
      Still I bite my lip, little things, keep chipping.

      He would ask “did you see that program” regardless of what I saw my reply is always “No, I wont pay the propaganda Tax” ( TV Lic. BTW they have arranged to visit me this week, letter fae mannie in Dundee)

      Recently the tone changed again, but I thought he was converted a few times in 2014 so didnt get too excited.

      Yesterday the Spitting Image clip with Maggie & Douglas Hurd “Scotland the testing ground” landed on my FB TL so I forwarded it & shortly after the reply.
      “Aye that wee clip makes you think”

      Fired over our wonderful John Jappy “Hiding the truth”

      A few hours later he has viewed heaps of John Jappy etc on YT.

      He admits to being furious with WM & would vote YES in next Indy Ref “but I still want out of EU”
      Indeed, I reply, iScotland can decide everything for ourselves & there will be a totally new political structure & new parties emerge.

      His final word “Your so right, lets get started…….”

      I’m fair cheered up & couldna wait t tell ye. BIG Smiley ………. after 6 years

    388. Thepnr says:

      @Tackety Beets

      Great stuff 🙂 The Testing Ground from Spittin Image.

    389. Tackety Beets says:


      Good man.

    390. Still Positive says:

      FM’s speech is brilliant Well done her. A wonderful woman and no mistake.

    391. Meg merrilees says:


      we could do worse than just post this around. Think it would do wonders for the Indy vote.

      Maybe Chris Cairns could draw a series of cartoons and another talented Scot could animate them into a modern version.

      The amazing thing is that since 1987 hardly anything has changed in real terms.

      Just watched Nicola’s speech – wow! Makes you so proud that she’s our FM.

      Just think of the effect if all of her speeches were regularly played on Scottish media. As it is we SO rarely get to hear her speak let alone hear her expound her ideas and future plans for Scotland.

      Enjoy your last few weeks without (T)Ruthless – her shrill voice will return on May 6th and her refrain of “it’s simply not good enough” will echo once more round Holyrood as she passes verdict on her own speeches and questions to Nicola.

    392. CageyBee says:

      @Tackety Beets
      way to go pleased for you sadly i ave been trying for years to get through to my younger brothers and they just put their fingers in their ears and shout “not listening, Bring back the empire, europe needs us more than we need them” I think I need someone else to try and work on them

    393. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      ScottishPsyche @ 19:34,

      If I’m not too late for this, I would like to say that I know exactly what you mean, and though there are some who have the tendency you mention, it’s by no means everyone. You are as likely to have useful insights on subjects of relevance as anyone, and have as much right to air them. So please don’t exclude yourself from the mix, either online or in person.

    394. Dr Jim says:

      Check out the FMs twitter the Yoon Goon squad have lost it completely now

    395. Cactus says:

      Happy New Year 2019 Chinars. 🙂

    396. Cactus says:

      Let’s have a look at the moon the NOW shall we hehe:

      As of present, we are in Micromoon mode (nae flashin’):

      SO it’ll probably appear a tad reduced to yer naked aye.

      Playing with you thru the night…

      (next LIVE shows on Wednesday and Friday, TuneIn 11am-2pm.)

    397. Cactus says:

      ~ Things you will never hear a British Nationalist say #296 ~

      ” Let’s Celebrate Brexit! ”

      Walk away frae the uk.

      People of Scotland.

    398. Cactus says:

      ~ Thing you may hear a British Nationalist say #1 ~

      ” Let’s Celebrate No-deal! (Brexit) ”

      That’s the word.

    399. Cactus says:

      Good Morning Scotland.

      Turn yur radio ON and turn it UP, here we go…

      Playing with you on into the marnin’…

      Previously ~ The Proclaimers
      NOW playing ~ Lizzy

    400. Dorothy Devine says:

      Morning Cactus ,listening to our First Minister right now and once I have enjoyed and absorbed what she says I will move over to IndyLive.

      It is more than ridiculous that someone has to post a youtube link so that her speeches can be heard and NOT what the MSM of Scotland interprets as her speech – forgive me Lord for HATING Scotlands MSM but I sincerely cannot find ONE good thing about it.

    401. Petra says:

      One of the scariest things about the political situation that we find ourselves in right now is the part that the DUP is playing in calling the shots for Scotland, IMO. Foster, Dodds and spouses having a meal with Big T and Phil at number 10, Johnston and Rees Mogg attending DUP events in NIreland and May in Belfast today visiting Arlene, etc, etc. One just wonders what the DUP are demanding over and above £money? And of course the general public in Scotland are being kept in the dark by the MSM, as per usual. As an example I’m speaking to people who have no idea that the DUP and the Orange Order are one and the same …. “Is that right enough?”

      The BBC has presenters visiting NIreland today talking to business men / women about Brexit and all is well. In Scotland the focus is still on ScotRail and the EIS with NO mention of Brexit at all. The Establishment controlled BBC has to be, by far, Scotland’s number one enemy.

    402. Cactus says:

      Hey Dorothy, aye ah tuned in to Nicola earlier on, ah Love to watch and listen to our FM, ah Love her passionate body language 2.

      Also that auld Spitting Image vid (which both should be shared far & wide.)

      Here’s a repeat for any Wingers whom may have missed these:

      Handing the reins over to you Dorothy xx. 😉

    403. Breeks says:

      Still Positive says:
      5 February, 2019 at 12:31 am
      FM’s speech is brilliant Well done her. A wonderful woman and no mistake.

      I wish I was still positive.

      The UK must rule out No Deal Brexit? A no deal Brexit is the direct consequence of failure. How can rule it out? It’s not ours to control. It’s the guillotine option that’s there to protect the EU from intractable stalemate which the UK seems to thrive upon. It’s coming, and it’s coming in 52 days time.

      Putting back the planned date for Brexit requires an extension to Article 50. The UK cannot extend Article 50, only make the request. The EU 27 Nations would have to agree to it. At best, to avoid interference with the EU elections in May, and extension would not be longer than 50 days, making precious little material difference to Brexit, and the opinions emerging from Europe, Guy Verhofstadt etc, is that Article 50 will not be extended.

      We could go back to the EU to negotiate a soft Brexit. Really? The EU has closed the door to negotiation, a soft Brexit has often been described as cherry picking the good bits of EU membership while rejecting the principle of Four Freedoms. Let’s gloss over the disgraceful abandonment of Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty to stand up for EU membership, but there are 52 days left to replace May’s deal with a better Soft Brexit Deal? This is fanciful beyond credible belief. It is impossible. It is a waste of words discussing it.

      So because the UK Government is in deadlock, we need a people’s vote. Nice idea, but it’s not going to happen. We have 52 days, and no realistic prospect of an extension, ok a remotely possible extension of 50 days, but the UK’s Brexit is now polarised, and a People’s Vote does NOT break the deadlock, it is just the weaker side in that deadlock. A people’s vote constitutes the Hard Brexit Leave Majority conceding a double or quits last chance to the No Brexit Remain Minority. For Clarity, our FM has positioned herself to the left of Leave, and to the right of Remain, in a Soft Brexit no-man’s-Land that simply isn’t practicable or deliverable. No wonder we’re lost and stationary.

      Scotland has a social awareness, and is more compassionate for ourselves and others, environmental issues and progress. Yes, all true, and I’m happy about it. It’s just a great pity there’s an ogre lives in London who’s vile intentions are to smash it all up. Yes, Scotland has wings, and wants to fly, but cannot rid itself of the brute who routinely clips those wings.

      I’m afraid I need more SNP indoctrination to see that as a brilliant speech. Where is the anger, defiance, and defence of our country’s Constitutional integrity? Where is Scotland asserting its right to choose its own future rather than falling in line behind the inane stupidity of Westminster?

      We have 52 days to save Scotland from Brexit. All I saw was dead eye complacency. The dead horse needs a fresh flogging.

      You’re right Tackety Beets. Frustrated and scunnered just about covers it, with a degree of utter despondency thrown on top.

      Joanna Cherry, please step up and take the lead with a Constitutional Test Case to derail Brexit on ultra vires unconstitutional impropriety and colonial subjugation.

      To Hell with politics and politicians. They have failed us once again.

    404. jezza says:


      Can’t access IndyLive.

      Is there a few hoops you need to go through before you access it???

    405. Petra says:

      For goodness sake Breeks have some faith that Nicola Surgeon WILL get us out of this hellhole. Meanwhile let’s all continue to convert others to the Independence cause by, say, getting negative information out there about the Union …… NOT Nicola Sturgeon. In other words if you can’t say anything positive about her / the SNP what about informing the Scots of the opposition’s nefarious deeds? You’ve got loads to choose from.

    406. Cyber-corroboree says:

      Like Breeks I’m beginning to seriously consider the possibility that the SNP would much rather wait for the effects of Brexit to fully kick in before doing anything. To be fair they have tried to negotiate a softer Brexit but London has shunned them at every opportunity. So,perhaps before pulling the trigger they are waiting to let the middle class noers have a taste of the mess Westminster has caused.

      I’m only guessing though, to be honest I haven’t a clue what they are planning.

    407. Petra says:

      @ Dorothy at 7:11am ……. “No mention of Nicola in the US.”

      Not only is there no mention of Brexit on Reporting Scotland this morning, as you say there’s no mention of Nicola Sturgeon being in the US either trying to drum up business. No snippet of her “Scotland first in the World” speech, just more of the same depressing “Scotland is sh*t” news. Yesterday they were reporting on the dire oil industry situation. Did no one tell them about the latest oil and gas finds?

      What happened to Donalda MacKinnon and Iain Small’s promises to the Scots that changes would be made? Statements to the effect that the BBC isn’t biased and so on? No longer lying? Just using, in the main, the age old propaganda technique of cardstacking / omission, day after day after day. It’s high time people banded together and took that crowd to Court, IMO, as they’re getting away with murder: Attempting to kill off a Nation.

    408. Dorothy Devine says:

      Petra, I am in the happy position of not paying for the output of the BBBC and mostly avoid their news and political programmes.

      Every now and then I pop back just to check that they are still lying , misleading and denigrating my country – they never disappoint!

      Cactus , enjoying the music and loved Spitting Image – goodness knows why we don’t still have some satirists at work , we sure could use them.

    409. Ghillie says:

      Hackalumpof @ 7.03 pm

      Thank you so much for the link to Nicola Sturgeon’s speech at Georgetown University, USA. 🙂

      What a lass! A true stateswoman.

      Our First Minister is one of Scotland’s greatest voices abroad.

      I say ‘one of’ because you are all potentialy Scotland’s great diplomats wherever you go, wee bairns to grandfolk =)

      Speak from a good heart and you will speak well for us all =)

    410. Petra says:

      If you’re looking for some positive news about Scotland, to alleviate depression and anxiety created by the Scottish MSM such as the BBC, check out Professor John Robertson’s site:-

    411. Colin Alexander says:

      For those that believe the Union is the defender of the Church of Scotland, Protestant faith.

      The UK state betrayed the promises of the spiritual independence of the Presbyterian faith when UK Parliament interfered in the church by passing a law that said Kirk ministers could be appointed by the patronage of wealthy landowners instead of Presbyteries being in charge of ministers for the Kirks.

      This led to Disruption of 1843 and a schism in the Church of Scotland.

      The UK state did not protect the spiritual independence of the Presbyterian faith; it attacked it and tried to take control of it, breaking the promises made in the Treaty of Union.

      Broken promises then. Broken promises now.

    412. Lanarkist says:

      I know I shouldn’t but caught a few snippets off BBC Radio Jockland this morning around 7.50am.

      First report on BP profit at 9.7 billion due to Clair Ridge Field, no further analysis, move along now.

      Union Jack McConnell on next to discuss 20 years of Devolved Parliament, rambles on then says it strays into Constitutional problems like the Continuity bill ” which was illegal”!

      Aye, he probably voted in the Lords to make it so before it could be activated and passed into law at Holyrood.


    413. Ghillie says:

      Oh Breeks, for goodness sake, put on a grownup pair =)

    414. Petra says:

      @ Dorothy …. I’m in the happy position of not paying for the output of the BBC either, lol. I just like to keep an eye on them. See what we’re up against.


      @ Nana …. Yes you are here Nana and no getting away noo. We need you X

    415. Petra says:

      @ Nana …. “Another speech from Nicola.”

      Thanks for that Nana.

      Amazing how PBS in the US can afford Nicola Sturgeon 10 minutes of their time, in comparison to the BBC / STV ignoring her entirely or “editing” her comments down to a few seconds here in the UK. And they wonder why we’re turning to Social Media and broadcasters such as RT for our news!

    416. Nana says:

      You’re welcome Petra, and here’s one more

      Splashing taxpayer’s cash

      Looks like UK Govt are seeking legal advice on likelihood of their being sued over #Seabornefreight #ferrygate

      and that really is all for now

    417. Iain mhor says:

      Ha class! @kangaroo
      Just when things are getting predictable, we get the new world order. It will be “Protocols” Merovingian bloodlines and the Prieure de Sion next. Don’t be forgetting Charles Radclyffe for the Stuarts and a Scottish angle tae keep us interested – gaun yersel, ah’m strapped in wi popcorn handy lol!

    418. jezza says:


      You seem to put yourself through self inflicted hell by watching and listening to every bit of propaganda that flows out of BBC Scotland.

      It obviously affects your health.

      So can I ask,,,why the hell do you do it.

      Most of us have caught on to what BBC Scotland and STV are playing at and have stopped watching and listening to anything they say.

      We went through all that with them in 2012 2013 2014,,,but after the Indy defeat in 2014 thousands of us said enough is enough and stopped paying them their license fee.

      And we also stopped watching and listening to the bullshit that came from their news outlets.

      And now the only access we have to their propaganda is through people like you,,,who insist on reminding us of twisted and depressing they are.

      Why not do what most of us on here do,,,and just dip in and out of their website.

    419. bjsalba says:

      For info

      The Public Broadcasting Service (PBS) is an American public broadcaster and television program distributor.[6] It is a non-profit organization and is the most prominent provider of educational television programming to public television stations in the United States.

      There is also NPR, which is National Public Radio.

    420. Ghillie says:

      Here’s hoping our cousins across the pond keep us well posted on Scotland’s First Minister’s travels.

      Nicola’s speech in the library of the University of Georgetown, Washington, USA was, as we have come to expect, clear, eloquent and inspiring.

      Hackalompof has the link @ 7.03 pm, uppost =)

    421. jfngw says:

      The ranting of a certain Edinburgh University professor in the papers again. It makes you wonder if there is something rotten at the heart of this university that it will tolerate this from one of its academics.

      I have noticed that she does seem to focus regularly on younger women, is this just the sign of a bitter has been whose future is behind her?

    422. Abulhaq says:

      [Responding to the First Minister’s speech, Scottish LibDem leader Willie Rennie said: “Whether the First Minister is in Washington or Wishaw, she keeps bashing the independence drum.
      “Even on an international stage she’s inward looking. Only Scottish Liberal Democrats are consistent in our support for Scotland at the heart of the UK and the UK at the heart of Europe.]

      Mr Rennie, the master of the commonplace, the bleeding obvious and the art of knowing how high to jump when instructed.

    423. hackalumpoff says:

      It’s all going so terribly well LOLZ

    424. galamcennalath says:

      To say the Tories are up to no good sounds like an understatement but scouring the online news, they are up to something.

      There is inescapable logic….

      The Irish Backstop is needed in case no other solution can be found to keep NI effectively in the single market.

      Tories of almost all persuasions say there are alternatives to the Backstop.

      If there are viable alternatives then the Backstop would never kick in.

      So, why are the Tories so anti-Backstop!? Why do they want rid of it? Or, toned down. Or, time limited. What is their actual agenda?

    425. K1 says:

      The most unnotable msp in Scotland and what he says isn’t worth a mention in despatches at any time. Rennie the Moaning Minnie, who really gives one fuck what he thinks about anything. He’s the ‘one trick’ pony of Scottish politics and indulging in futile projections onto the SNP is ‘his’ raison d’être.

      He will not be missed.

    426. K1 says:

      It seems obvious even to the casual observer that the Irish backstop and its insurmountable difficulties for the current WM incumbents, are largely due to the backstop getting in the way of the trade deals they wish to make post Brexit. Any divergence within the UK ‘state’ holes their plans for the massive fire sale wherein everything is for sale; land, farming, NHS, fishing, environmental safe guards, food standards and worker rights to name the main ones and every public service that we currently enjoy.

      It tells us they have no intention of honouring the backstop which is why they are trying so hard to ensure there isn’t one before withdrawing. If NI stays in a cu and sm set up, they are totally fucked in this regard. In other words they don’t get out of the EU in the hard Brexiteer mindset, with all its ‘rules’ preventing them from reshaping ‘Britain’ as a the recalled idyll of their Etonian childhood, where they are the ‘new’ aristocracy and the serfs can do one.

    427. Capella says:

      @ galamcennalath – I think the Tories are against the backstop because the DUP are against the backstop.

      @ kangaroo – I tend to agree with Thepnr regarding conspiracy theories although I do think there is a grain of truth in some of them.

      I was shocked to hear about Bohemian Grove in 2008 and the Elm Grove boarding house and other tales about international paedophile rings. These are thought to be run by secret intelligence organisations in order to blackmail MPs and other powerful individuals.

      One theory is that the DUP are blackmailing Theresa May over the Kincorra Boys Home scandals. TM was the Home Secretary who allegedly “lost” many files dealing with paedophiles in the HoC and HoL.

      So the answer to the question “Why are the Tories against the bakstop?” may simply be that they get their instructions from the DUP ( as Ian Paisley Jr recently said).

      That makes it an issue which directly affects Scotland and the independence campaign.

    428. hackalumpoff says:

      @Nana your link failed here it is again.

      Here are some more, seeing you are neither here nor there.

      Malware For Humans is a conversation-led, independent documentary about fake news, big data, electoral interference, and hybrid warfare. It is available for free, without advertisements, worldwide from 12pm (GMT) today.

      Sneaking out bad news

    429. Colin Alexander says:

      The UK Govt made the EU Withdrawal Act (EWA)a reserved matter.

      So unless Brexit is cancelled / postponed, Scotland will leave the EU on 29 March 2019.

      Let’s assume a referendum was held before 29/02/2019, (though very unlikely as that is due to there only being 52 days).

      But the question was: “Should Scotland’s Parliament exercise Scottish sovereignty?” and people voted Yes to that question.

      The Scottish Parliament immediately declares the devolution parliament dead; it declares itself the reconvened “sovereign” Scottish Parliament and immediately legislates revoking Art 50 applying to Scotland and reserves international treaties etc to the SP.

      The UK is the EU member state, not the UK Govt. Scotland would still be part of the EU as it would still be part of a UK with TWO sovereign parliaments.

      One sovereign due to the sovereignty of the Queen of England: Westminster.
      The Scottish Parliament representing the sovereignty of the people of Scotland.

      Scotland would be effectively amending the Treaty of Union but still continuing the Union, not revoking it completely, so we would continue to be members of the EU as part of the UK member state.

      It then becomes the situation that the partners of the UK either accept those changes or walk away; the same choice Scotland has faced for over 300 years.

    430. Baldeagle58 says:

      Nana says:

      5 February, 2019 at 9:29 am

      You’re welcome Petra, and here’s one more

      Splashing taxpayer’s cash

      Looks like UK Govt are seeking legal advice on likelihood of their being sued over #Seabornefreight #ferrygate

      and that really is all for now

      Hi Nana,

      Just to say, Twitter isn’t recognising the above link ‘Sorry, that page doesn’t exist’ message coming up. 🙁

    431. Dr Jim says:

      The backstop is in place to prevent the UKs attempts to break the EU
      The English couldn’t control the EU so they proceed with doing what they always have done when they can’t win fairly, they burst the ball or break the toy so everybody loses then blame that loss on the other side

      What are we hearing from Westmister every day now *If we don’t get a deal it’s the fault of the EU* *The EU are the ones being intransigent* and the poor uneducated English punter on the street parrots it because Flag Spitfires Dunkirk spirit God save the Queen

      English punters have never had a chance, always faced with two versions of the same choice by both Blue and Red Tory parties at Westminster, and who do they believe? well generally the one who looks the most earnest, is taller,(that means you’re more important) can shout a bit, be sarcastic and do a good job of eating a bacon sandwich, and if they went to the right school, well then they must be better educated and thus the correct choice

      If the UK survives, one day they’ll have a seven foot tall Prime minister of undetermined sex who is a vegan and has three children by a sexually engineered robot from Africa

      Bet you it’ll still be a white robot though, they won’t go too far

    432. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      I too caught Union Jack McConnell @Lanarkist says at 8:54 am

      The comment which made me sit up was when he was going on about “the difference in culture” between Holyrood and Westminster.

      Guarded language but basically Holyrood and Westminster worked better together when there was a British Nationalist Government in Scotland.

      Union (gave the cash back) Jack didn’t say who this actually BritNat arrangement worked better for (although I think we all know).

    433. hackalumpoff says:

      Guga & Seaweed Links for lunch.

      How to destroy a Tory on Air

      If this guy can go from ‘No to Yes’ then I believe anyone can.

      Because BP doesn’t pay tax in the UK And I hope you are sitting down for the next bit

      Who funds you? Think tanks are all being tarnished by secretive right-wingers

    434. Petra says:

      @ jezza at 9:44am …. “BBC obviously affects your health.”

      A bit of an assumption, eh? But thanks for caring so much jezza, lol, and no need for you to worry about my health as it’s 100%. More to the point how’s your health?

      Why do I watch the news? To keep up to date with what’s going on just as I, and others, check out additional sites. If we didn’t people like you wouldn’t have a clue, now would you? Nana (and others including Stu at times) posts depressing news every day. Do you suggest that we stop reading her informative links? It’s also not just about you. People outside of Scotland have no idea what the BBC is reporting, or more likely not, in Scotland. In fact many people in Scotland have no idea that they are being fed a pack of lies.

      You’re also being presumptuous in thinking that I pay to watch TV.

      As to dipping in and out of their website, well that doesn’t seem to equate to what they are actually broadcasting. You know the “stuff” that is / has influenced many No voters. If we don’t know what they are being told it impacts on what we (I) can discuss with people on a daily basis. A good example is the latest oil industry crisis being reported on the news.

      At the end of the day jezza, if you don’t like my posts you know what to do. Feel free to scroll on by and post some informative comments of your own. Looking forward to reading some to cheer me up, lol. Better still surprise me.

    435. hackalumpoff says:

      @baldeagle see my post at 10:41

    436. Stravaiger says:

      Kangaroo’s MO is pretty obvious. Post conspiracy theory shite to try to tar us all as the tinfoil hat brigade.

    437. Daisy Walker says:

      Really good article (again) from WGD re our former No Voters. I put the following comment on it.

      With the benefit of hindsight in the run up to 2014, several people who I now know to be tories – attempted to sway me by pretending to be Labouresque in their thoughts;)

      Perhaps time we borrowed that hat from them and pretend to at least see things from a slightly right of centre point of view.

      Better Together admit running a campaign of 2 parts fear, 1 part good news – which for them meant rose tinted, union jack bedecked, black and white footage of Great British nostalgia and cloth capped wearing labour workers, cheering for Churchill.

      I firmly believe that no efforts are ever wasted, and the positive Yes campaign has left its legacy.

      We are now facing a different beast with Brexit, and can afford to change tactics a wee bit.

      And on the positive side, if we can persuade our former No Voters to believe and support Independence for Scotland, to have a stake in the running of their own country, instead of being a country with very sizeable chunk of its own population feeling disgruntled, we would have them with their shoulders to the same wheel.

      And while I am not a Tory, there are some of that inclination, across all walks of life and professions, who have skills, contacts, abilities and wealth, and even a different way of looking at things. A country needs diversity, and that includes a diversity of political outlooks (though hopefully not too many of the right wing kind).

      If we can persuade them to Indy – Scotland will be a much stronger and secure country as a result.

      Many of those Unionists are very firmly in favour of Devolution. Many are pro European, Most are pro Business, and they all believed in a benevolent, Greater Britain.

      They put their hearts on their sleeves, believing in something bigger than Scotland… And they have been well and truly humiliated and betrayed by Westminster. Right just now they are very frightened and confused.

      Right just now they need reassured and comforted and made to feel welcomed and that they also have a stake in Scotland.

      Through their eyes, an independent Scotland was going to be a socialist nightmare, with lots of people laying about, claiming benefits willynilly and ruining the country. There is over 30 years of propaganda telling them that.

      It does not mean, that they do not appreciate or value the NHS, or education, or our other social services, they just want to be reassured that there are checks and balances in place, so the system is not abused.

      Re Scotland trades 4 x as much with England as it does with EU.

      3 quick responses…

      1/ aye, but a great big chunk of that is electricity… what are they going to do, sit round a candle.

      2/ aye, but they will be doing some form of trade deal with the EU eventually and Scotland will be a part of the EU, so they will not be allowed to discriminate.

      3/ the figures gathered for that are extremely dubious and incomplete, gathered by Westminster – just look how good they are at that sort of thing with Brexit.

      As I say – I am not of the tory persuation – so the above is a repeat of some of the things they say. Don’t shoot the messenger.


    438. Famous15 says:

      Daisy at 1143.

      Agree, Let’s get smart,our country needs to be pluralistic,if that’s a word.

    439. North chiel says:

      Well said “ Petra @1057” . Our people are and have been drip fed both cultural and “ news” propaganda by this Britnat establishment organisation for decades ( and so it continues) . Thankfully people like professor Roberson and others continually “ call them out” as regards their outrageous bias especially “ news & political output” .People nowadays have a wider selection of news output and it is quite often an “ eye opener” when various other European and world news broadcasters version of events is compared to that of the BBC and SKY ‘s U.K. “ version” of events. Even in my university days I would read every newspaper in the library as regards “ news and political output” to attempt to gain an overall view of “ the truth”. ( Certainly in these days journalists of some integrity and professionalism were somewhat more evident than today) .

    440. HandandShrimp says:

      I see Spanner and Co are covering themselves in glory over a young SNP member. The one with a distinctly fruitcake disposition claims to have pictures of the girl from 2014 when she was 12. Really?

      SiU seem to be becoming deranged in their marginalised impotence.

    441. Dr Jim says:

      Jamie Greene Tory MSP is complaining that Scotlands FM Nicola Sturgeon is flying all over the world promoting Scottish Independence on the tax payers £

      Yet Jamie Greene Tory MSP expenses are more than double the FMs, here are the numbers £36.334 Tory MSP Jamie Greene

      Our jet setting all around the world promoting business for Scotland FM £13.005

      So the question should be what’s Jamie Greene Tory MSP spending Scottish taxpayers money on when the FM can give us this value for money for her efforts on behalf of our country

      and Jamie Greene gives us what exactly?

    442. Dr Jim says:


      I do what you do so we must not be most of us then, and here was me thinking I was one of most of us, like you who is one of most of us

      Report away Petra there are many not most of us who don’t know what most of us apparently know but they hopefully read what we, who aren’t most of us, write

    443. Scott says:

      Joanna Cherry QC MP

      Goodness me she is on Politics Live

    444. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert Louis says: 4 February, 2019 at 7:09 pm:

      ” … Robert Peffers Wittering on again in an over lengthy diatribe, insulting people, just because they do not accept his personal viewpoint on the whole world.”

      The usual Robert Louis deflection and totally misleading and inaccurate accusations.

      My criticism of your posting history has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with my own personal views. It hasn’t even got to do with your own personal views but everything to do with YOUR own personal and persistent criticisms of the FM. SG and SNP – because THEY don’t agree with YOUR personal, and oft commented, views.

      If I hold views that differ from the FM, SG or SNP I take that up with them directly. In all cases the FM, SG and SNP are exceptionally easy to contact and to interact with on-line, by telephone or by email. What other party leader or government leader in the United Kingdom openly walks among the people as Nicola does? In fact she has been roundly berated by the hostile media as being, “The Queen of the Selfie”. The contact details for contacting MPs, MSPs, The SG and the SNP are readily available to everyone.

      Furthermore, over many years, I have never failed to have any of them answer me and mostly in person and not by either members of staff or by standard , fill in the blanks, official stationary.

      You, on the other hand choose to air your personal differences of opinion with the FM, SG and SNP on an open forum that you know full well is read by the unionists. Just what are you motives for doing so?

      You cannot influence the FM’s decisions by commenting on Wings. You cannot influence the SG either as a government or individual MPs, nor can you change the views of MSPs or MEPs by commenting adversely on Wings.

      There is only a couple of things that such adverse comments here on Wings can, and does, influence. These are – to discourage other Wings readers and commenters by sowing both discontent and doubts in their minds. The other is to give heart to any unionists, supporters party officials and elected to all levels of government persons that, “The SNP/SG/Indy movement are engaged in civil war.

      There is hardly a single day passes that you do not adversely comment upon something the only hope Scotland has of regained independence has to offer. You work within the movement against the movement.

      I do not agree 100% with the SNP/SG or FM, and I never have done so, but I take my differences to where they might have some effect. That is not by exposing them in the public domain. Also, mark you, I have lived through several real insider battles in the party and also among the general public in Scotland.

      The SNP are the norm now – when I began to support independence they were openly branded in the media and accepted by the public as dangerous, militant and probable terrorists with the party leader arrested and flung into jail accuser of being a collaborator with the NAZIs and having a cache of weapons.

      Significantly no charges were ever brought and no actual evidence has ever been revealed. A bit like your own personal opposition to the leaders of the whole Indy movement. Who is it you think will regain independence if not the SNP?

    445. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      If I was a political strategist planning for independence I would be very loathe to indicate to the enemy what I was intending to do and when I was intending to do it. This I hope is where we are.

      In the next immediate period when time runs out at Westminster however an announced plan of action will become imperative.

      If Brexit – deal or no deal – becomes certain we must immediately move for independence. We will do so secure in the knowledge that the EU welcomes us with open arms as has been illustrated by the plethora of positive remarks from EU leaders about Scotland’s future among them.

      I just watched clip from the Scotparl before the last Scot election with Nicola insisting that that election was not about independence. Sorry,Nicola. It was. Everything in Scottish politics now is about independence. That election campaign was a massive misjudgement.

    446. I can’t believe that democracy is under attack by people who pretend to be the champions of democracy I mean they are trying to overturn the brexit vote and overturn the vote in Venisala sorry if I have spelt that wrong and the eu including Britain is recognising an unelected man as the president and therefor not regognisig the man who is the elected president and this is the eu most of you want to stay in ??? As I have said before I do not want to belong to the U.K.or the E.U. Or NATO and no special relationship with America or anything else for that matter freedom is what I want real freedom not pretendy freedom

    447. Capella says:

      @ Blair Paterson – I believe that Italy has vetoed an EU endorsement of Guido in Venezuela. It looks like NATO countries have backed the US coup.

      Some excellent background here:

    448. geeo says:

      @blair paterson.

      I assume you do not want to trade with other countries, nor work cooperatively with them on any subject, as that would not fit your thick as mince narrative, which seems based on the North Korea model.

      Even for you, that is some pile of steaming keech.

    449. Capella says:

      Craig Murray’s latest post, From Karachi to Caracas, mentions Venezuela. The comments are often a source of good links such as this one from Sharp Ears. It’s a pdf news mag which presents an alternative view on world events.

      Like the Max Blumenthal article I linked to above, it spells out the status of Jaun Guaido as a right wing puppet of US oligarchs.
      Disgusting to find the UK Defencd Minister backing this anti-democratic attempt to seize Venezuela’s oil.

      Luckily for Scotland, Westminster sees to it that BP gets a £134 million tax credit to add to its billions in profits from the North Sea. But we know what might lie in store if we ever want to use our resources to benefit our own citizens.

    450. Geoo you are a very rude and awfull person you assume to know all about me so be brave enough to give your real full name and I will be pleased to meet you anytime

    451. Dr Jim says:

      Democratically chosen expansion versus isolationism! Hmmn?

      And the winner is….the first thing by a margin of hundreds of millions

      A frog on a leaf in the middle of the ocean is king of the leaf until it rains

    452. jezza says:

      Blair Paterson 1.17pm

      I see one of the site wankers has introduced himself to you.

    453. jezza says:

      Anyone else notice the similarities between English Hone Secretary Sajid Javid and the actor Dudley Moore???

      Just an observation…

      Has anyone ever seen the two of them I the same room together???

    454. robbo says:

      jezza says:
      5 February, 2019 at 1:21 pm
      Blair Paterson 1.17pm

      Oh here we go. “Ma dad is bigger than ur da”. lol

    455. geeo says:

      @Blair Paterson.

      My name is Gordon Blackhall, i am from Falkirk.

      What are you going to do now, you silly little boy?

      Oh sorry, was i supposed to be intimidated there ?



      Truth hurts huh?

      Nothing i posted in reference to your gibberish at 12.29pm was particulary rude or awful. In fact, it was a natural progression based on your own vision of an insular Scotland, cut off from the world.

      So, are you going to threaten me again now ?

      Hunt me down ?

      Ahh…hold on..checking out social media ?

      Phone book ?

      Impotence suits you. Good luck tho.

    456. call me dave says:

      Aye! Jack McConnell says on shortbread radio he’s surprised that the Brexit fiasco has not resulted in any noticeable change in the polls for independence. 🙂 Well he would say that wouldn’t he.

      He also admitted (good BBC word) that Dick Leonard has a hard job on as the new labour leader.

      On the other hand watched the excellent speech from the FM late last night thanks to those who posted the link.
      She’s worth every penny of whatever she earns taking our concerns abroad to a wider audience.

      Postie popped my enamel badge from ‘The Sunday National’ through the letter box while I was out. Nice thing it is too.

    457. jezza says:


      What the fuck has the height of your da got to do with the price of a loaf???

    458. Bill Hume says:

      Hello Geeo, fellow ‘Bairn’……wee wavy hand thing.

    459. jezza says:

      Re: My concerns for Petra’s health.

      Petra, I was only trying to steer you away from the valium.

      You come across as a bit of a “Nervous Nerys” type from an episode of Only Fools and Horses.

      Don’t let the bastards of the Beeb get you down hen.

      Take up knitting,,,I’m told it is very calming.

    460. Jfngw says:

      For those wanting an isolationist Scotland, it’s simple. You just need to join or create a political party with these objectives, you then get the people to vote for you.

      That’s how democracy works, or should work, although some superpowers may take a different view.

    461. geeo says:

      @Bill Hume (wavy hand thing back).

      Blair gone quiet huh ?

    462. Geoo you say nothing I posted in reference to your gibberish was rude ?so calling other people’s opinions gibberish is not rude I have been taught to respect other people’s point of view no matter if I agree with it or not the key word there is respect

    463. jezza says:


      You come across as a wannabe Hardman.

      From Jezza

      Dixon Ave

    464. Capella says:

      @ Blair Paterson – is that your real name?

    465. Gary45% says:

      Hey troops, seems to be a wee bit, “ma dugs got mair teeth than your dug”, going on.
      We are on the same side, remember “divided we fall”
      I’ve got a khaki belt in ballet, that trumps everything.

    466. robin says:

      I see tony blair is pontificating about Brexit again
      shows how behind the times I am; I didn’t even realise the war criminal had been released from jail

    467. Colin Alexander says:

      Nicola Sturgeon: “Clearly, if people in Scotland are being asked, given the opportunity to look again at the independence question, they have a right to have as much information as possible about what – if Scotland chooses to be independent – what our relationships will be with the rest of the UK and with Europe”.

      See! Nicola and me are in agreement. So, why do we have to rely on legal advice from Robert Peffers about the future relationship with the UK, including division of assets and responsibilities?

      No disrespect to Mr Peffers and his opinion is welcomed but, only a court can provide the definitive answer; everything else is just opinion, whether from Scot Govt, UK Govt or anyone else.

    468. geeo says:

      Still slavering, coco.

      Depite dozens of explanations why that latest chuntering is utter pish, you post it yet again, as if that somehow legitimises it.

      It was drivel the 1st time, coco. Nothing has changed by the amount oftimes you post it.

      Are you missing your pal, rock so much that you are copying his style of repetitive nonsense ?

    469. Thepnr says:

      @Colin Alexander

      Just at what part of that PBS interview did Nicola Sturgeon mention Courts? She actually repeated what she has always said:

      “Clearly, if people in Scotland are being asked, given the opportunity to look again at the independence question, they have a right to have as much information as possible about what – if Scotland chooses to be independent, what our relationships will be with the rest of the UK and with Europe,” she said.

      “And some of the answers to those questions inevitably depend on the Brexit outcome to some extent. And, therefore, I think it’s in the interest of allowing an informed decision to be taken about independence that we allow some of that clarity to emerge.

      “Brexit is a good example of what happens when people take, in some respects, an uninformed decision about a big change. And when people, as I believe they will in due course, opt for Scotland to be an independent country, that should be on the basis of a genuinely informed decision about all of the implications and consequences.”

    470. Thepnr says:

      That earlier quote from Nicola Surgeon is from the PDS interview that Nana linked to this morning.

      Now Severin Carrell has had a look at it and made it his piece for the Guardian. He has his own take on it of course. The headline is:

      Scottish independence: new vote depends on Brexit outcome – Sturgeon

      Is that really news? Hasn’t she always said that LOL. Money for old rope being a Britnat journalist it would seem. He gets batter though with wild speculation further on in the article.

      Many observers suspect Sturgeon may delay that referendum until after the 2021 Holyrood elections. Pressed on why she would not call a second one now, Sturgeon again hinted strongly a second independence vote could be several years away.

      The man is simply amazing to get to having a vote after 2021 from the words actually said is a feat of genius on his part. Great stuff LOL.

    471. Legerwood says:

      Petra says:
      5 February, 2019 at 9:17 am
      @ Nana …. “Another speech from Nicola.”

      I was amazed last night when Reporting Scotland actually reported that Ms Sturgeon was in the US and showed, what for them was, a longish clip from her speech.

      Usually they ignore any trip the FM makes overseas and even if they report it they never let you here her speaking.

    472. Petra says:

      @ Dr Jim at 12:13pm ….. Ha, ha, ha. Good one.


      @ jezza at 1:48 …. Take up knitting.”

      Aw naw the wee foul mouthed sweetie-wife is back on!

      I’m sure you would love to see us all disappearing from the site jezza with the women taking up knitting and the men footering around with jigsaws, but hey it ain’t going to happen.


      @ Legerwood at 4:18pm…. “BBC reporting on Nicola Surgeon’s US visit.”

      I missed that Legerwood and there was nothing on the news about it this morning. Good to hear however that they seem to have bucked up.

    473. Colin Alexander says:

      @ Thepnr

      “if Scotland chooses to be independent, what our relationships will be with the rest of the UK and with Europe,”.

      MSPs went to court to find the answer to: can the UK unilaterally cancel Article 50?

      But, we were left guessing which was the correct answer about what is the situation regarding Scotland’s relationships with the UK and EU if there had been a Yes vote in 2014.

      From memory, I believe the UK, in their infamous Annexe A, quoted such “legal experts” as writer Alan Massie that the situation would become new state Scotland and a continuing rUK. We have to rely on Mr Peffers for his counsel who rubbishes such an assertion. His view being that the UK would revert to the independent Kingdom of Scotland and Kingdom of England.

      Does it matter? Yes, because on the UK Govt’s view of things, the rUK gets everything and new Scotland is entitled to nothing of UK assets.

      I don’t claim the UK Govt are right. I expected they were talking mince. It would be nice for it to be proved in court before people vote.

      Also, the White Paper merely stated the Scottish tradition of sovereignty of the people but described UK Parliament as sovereign in the UK. Those conflicting sovereignties should have been dealt with legally in court.

      The whole Dicey theory of UK Parliamentary sovereignty should be challenged legally. Not colonial Scottish Parliament v UK Parliament in Continuity Bill but instead , sovereign people of Scotland v UK Parliament sovereignty.

      We were told by the Scottish Govt in 2014 by voting YES we would continue to be members of the EU; and told by UK Govt by voting No was the only way to retain EU membership. We never got a straight answer from the EU about what their view was. Now, we face being dragged / kicked out the EU despite a 63% vote to Remain in the EU. Is that legal????

      Frankly, such guesswork, opinions and predictions of Project Fear or Project Rosy View and current lack of most of all, the lack of assertion of Scottish sovereignty is is an unacceptable way for anyone to decide on their future and the future of their nation.

      Indyref1 was a shambles of misinformation and opinions, guesswork and downright dishonesty presented as fact. EU-ref followed the same procedure.

      We have to rely on Stu Campbell and Wingers for information about Scotland / EU / UK while we all play guess what’s next, will she or won’t she; which applies to Mrs May and Ms Sturgeon.

      I don’t find it acceptable just waiting to see what Theresa May’s Tories, Corbyn’s Labour and N.I’s. DUP MPs decide for Scotland.

      Scotland should be asserting her sovereignty now.

    474. yesindyref2 says:

      Italy’s a member of NATO, an important one too though the UK would be unlikely to say that. Good Air Force and navy, important strategically for NATO.

    475. geeo says:

      Still slavering the same hundred times debunked pish there, coco.

      Scotlands legal sovereignty was only recently AFFIRMED yet again.


      Try keep up coco…oh wait, you HAVE been informed, but you have turned into your fallen hero, rock.

      You do know, NOBODY takes you seriously.

    476. Colin Alexander says:


      I’ve read much of that Commons debate and the UK Govt’s response. Have you?

      Here’s the links for you or anyone that’s interested:

      So, the sovereign people voted Remain in the EU and yet Scotland is to be dragged out the EU.

      So, the Claim of Right supported in that Commons debate you referred to, is that the people of Scotland can choose the form of govt best suited.

      The sovereign people chose governance that includes EU membership, do you no see a problem there with Brexit happening?

      Tell me why the SNP Scot Govt or any MSP or MP or anyone has not taken the “sovereignty” of the people of Scotland to court to uphold their Claim of Right decision to continued EU membership as legally overriding the decision of UK Parliament to vote for Art 50?

    477. geeo says:

      You tell me to tell you why something is, yet on the 100 plus times you are told the same things, setting right your drivelous postings, you simply do not listen and go on to repeat your ramblings yet again.

      Why not try figure it out yourself this time coco ?

      Lets find you a starting point.

      1. You are talking mince.

      2. Over to you.

    478. Colin Alexander says:

      I hope people do realise that that debate was clever political theatre by the SNP. But nothing binding was achieved.

      The Commons voted that day acknowledging the Claim of Right. But the Commons could vote to not recognise it tomorrow, if they wanted to. But they are too fly for that.

      Instead the UK Govt say the people of Scotland exercised sovereignty by voting to remain part of the UK, so in the UK Govt’s eyes that gives them unlimited power to make or break any promise and do whatever they want. That’s called UK Parliamentary sovereignty.

      Indyref was supposed to give the opportunity of self-determination. Instead it gave the UK Govt a blank cheque to rig the campaign and a blank cheque to commit further abuses of power against the people of Scotland.

      Instead of practising sovereignty or informed choice, referendums become a vote for a pig in a poke, con-trick.

    479. geeo says:

      Oh please, coco, just stop already.

      The Scottish claim of right is a founding tenet on which the treaty of union is built and predicated upon.

      Breach the Claim of Right, you break the explicit terms of Treaty of Union.

      This is so basic even you can comprehend it, coco.

      Tagging your utter pish at the end of a topic, in the hope of misinforming stragglers to the topic, is a well trodden tactic by Btritish Nationalists on here.

      Not on my watch, coco.

    480. Rob Royston says:

      This ship sailed on the morning after the Brexit vote. The SNP had 56 of the 59 MP’s and just over 50 % of the electorate but they did not embark.
      At the 2017 snap election the voters showed that they had expected action from them and many went back to the Tories and Labour.

    481. geeo says:

      Away ya slaverer.



      That is 60% of ALL SNP contested WM seats.

      The tories won 48.8% of ALL tory contested seats.

      We are a couple of weeks away from an indyref announcement.

      You seem rather beelin’ about that. GIRFUY.

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