Department of Are You Sure?
Posted on
May 28, 2014 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
Here’s the beleaguered Danny Alexander, quoted by the Guardian today (11.27am):
Well, that’s a relief.
Except wait, what’s this? Is it the 2010 Scottish Lib Dem manifesto, perhaps?
And this, from the party’s 2012 recommendations on federalism?
Oh, Danny. It’s really not your day, is it?
Sounds to me like he’s caught Darlingitis….
Oh Danny boy! You couldn’t tell the truth if you’re life depended on it.
making it up, on the hoof.
They are well and truly buggered, or at least should be , if we had and independent, professional press.
I think that the raison d’etre for the Press BBC and any other unionist media was to provide a counterbalance to the SNP’s emergent dominance of Holyrood. It has morphed into a usurption of the democratic process.
I wonder if they actually understand the fundamental damage they are doing to 300 years of evolutionary democracy?
Me, myself and I.
Ying and Yang.
Fek’em.
ronald alexander mcdonald – do you think we now need to have a Yew Choob indy version of ‘Danny Boy’?
Amateur!
@
ronald alexander mcdonald
If this were the French Revolution, it would.
Bring out the tumbrill.
Next!
Just to elbow in here for the last time!
My fundraiser for the local yes campaigns will end tomorrow morning at 7AM. I’m looking for a late surge. I’m sitting above £10,000 which is fantastic but would love one final punt.
Facebook link: link to facebook.com
Fundraising link: link to indiegogo.com
and my speech on arrival at St Enoch Sq on Sunday evening:
link to new.livestream.com
Please donate. This is for the crucial cause: the grassroots movements.
I will be doing another one possibly in July or August.
Clearly he’s just one more bullshit artist but are Con/Dem’s actually going to offer their “fiscal federalism” thing before its too late for teamGB?
The MSM have always been like this, organs of the state – see Noam Chomsky’s extensive work for explanations of why this is so. What is different now, is that because of sites like Wings,and engagement in the YES campaign, more and more people are aware of this, and not just Chomsky fans like myself.
This is truly an awakening of the people, and is unlike any recent phenomenon, particularly in Scotland.
It seems to me that many politicians have not adapted to the Information Age and what that means. You might think someone younger like our Beaker would realise how easy it is to find things said earlier that flatly contradict what you are saying now. Either that or consistency is something they will happily jettison for short term political advantage. Allied of course to a contempt for the voter.
Stu,
I am constantly amazed at your brilliant and forensic dissection of the lies of the No campaign.
I’ve stopped saying “How does he do it?” and I just shake my head in admiration.
Reminds me of Pele, or maybe you’d prefer Willie Miller.
“I am constantly amazed at your brilliant and forensic dissection of the lies of the No campaign.
I’ve stopped saying “How does he do it?” and I just shake my head in admiration.”
It’s not genius and there’s no trick to it. It’s just Google and paying attention.
New term, “a Danny arse”
Sadly, he won’t be questioned on this by any tv journalist.
Tell me people of Scotland are yous not getting fed up with all the lies from the BBC and polititions? CMON time to wake up stop paying the BBC tax and dump the daily papers.
Danny speak with forked tongue…
They sure have hung young Beaker oot on the line today, the lure of the British Establishment and it’s ermine cloaks have catch’d Beaker and he is willing to pimp it’s shite to his countrymen..tick tock Beaker
I may have misjudged him!
I thought him a liar when he may in fact be an idiot.
Could he be both and hold such high office?
Perhaps that is what makes him perfect as a Tory goverment minister.
@ Fireproofjim
” I’ve stopped saying “How does he do it?” and I just shake my head in admiration.
Reminds me of Pele, or maybe you’d prefer Willie Miller.”
probably the best ever description of Stu.
err, who is Willie Miller?
How safe is Beaker’s seat? if he has no chance at next GE then he has to be looking at formally jumping the Liberal sinking ship in to Tory/UKIP boat or getting in to the House of Perpetual Pish Stench why else would he be peddling this utter pish and lies on behalf of the Bullingdon Boys?
All very well faeriefromtheearth – but filling in crosswords on a computer really mucks the screen up xx
Oh dear, another episode of dannymandering
He just can’t stop lying today – maybe he’s going to ask for a half-fare on the bus home with his short trousers on.
Oh Danny Boy, the tripe the tripe is calling you…
I wondered why people call Mr Danny Alexander “Beaker” and so I googled it. I found the Muppet Beaker singing “Ode to Joy” and exploded with mirth as indeed he does. I invite those more competent to have a look and do the attachment thingy. It made my day and restored my sanity.
Guardian nae bad coverage today then but their CiFers are pretty lousy these days, enraged britnats trying to think up new insults for Scotland.
Complete media blackout up here in Aberdeen as BBC avoid even a mention, usual ghastly report from C4 news gits just there sadly.
Even far right Spectator Alex Massie says “It is, I think, probable – and unnecessarily stupid – that some of the UK government’s assumptions about the one-off start-up costs of establishing a new state are exaggerated. True too that even on London’s pessimistic forecasts an independent Scotland remains a perfectly viable proposition.”
Spooky
Beaker and Nick Clegg are superb assets for the Yes campaign.
We must thank our lucky stars that the Lib Dems are in such a parlous state they can’t even organise a competent coup any more and are stuck with the spectacularly unpopular Clegg.
Empty vessels make the most noise..beaker must be empty.
Broadsword to Danny Boy… Taxi!
PS:
Where is the Sec State for Scotland has he gone the way of Darling?
Mammy’s big tumshie.
He may sound like an idiot, he may look like an idiot, but make no mistake, he is an idiot, groucho marx i think.
I suppose we could be kind and say that he has a lot on his mind. The Liberals do not have far to go for their problems.They appear to be entering some sort of melt down so remembering his own party’s policies and plans is hardly likely to be top of his priorities…never mind any other party.
Clootie and Croomenstein
He is a wee laddie who dun guid at the local school.
His dad was a Firefighter and Deputy Pier Master on Colonsay. Huge respect for his Dad. He then moved to the mainland and continued his education, after which he continued his tertiar education at Oxford, PPE at St Anne’s, ffs! Anyone who knows me can ask me about that ffs.
He has never had a real job in his life, and then straight into the politics road show.
If you have heard that, in the USA, anyone can be President then, Danny Alexander is the UK embodiment of that aspiration.
A no mark but with the boxes ticked.
He will quit Scotland and I am not moved.
His tea is oot!
It is time.
@TJenny
Brilliant idea! Customised “Danny Boy” lyrics winging their way to Jock as I type.
“Broadsword to Danny Boy… Taxi!”
ROFL
That, my friend, is funny on so many levels.
“Dannymandering.” Excellent, thank you. Off to twitter that.
Oh, I would love to know what the ‘Sir Humphreys’ of Whitehall make of Danny Alexander. I think I can guess, however.
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
28 May, 2014 at 7:50 pm
It’s not genius and there’s no trick to it. It’s just Google and paying attention.
Raspberry!
Look into my eyes.
Beaker “Nick , av jist been suspended from the party fur saying the c word!”
Clegg “It wasnt clever was it?”
“Naw , it wis c**t!”
And I know that UKIPs policies seem to be made up on the back of one of Nigel’s beermats at the moment, but in section 3.5 of this document from 2010 they explicitly state they would abolish the Barnett formula –
link to devolutionmatters.files.wordpress.com
Ninja Penguin – brill!
You all gonna be at CH2 on Friday? Hope so, cannae wait.
Buckie Brays
I think that the Treasury has received and absorbed the biggest load on Middle England intellectual keich that this country has produced.
A bit like the French Eb=narc system.
Trained to intellectual superiority and yet possessing total introspectrive ineptitude.
In other words
Ham Shankers.
Just been catching up on Danny Alexander’s latest pronouncements. What’s aw this about a £1400 union dividend? I aint been getting it? Is it like that bleedin PPI thing everyone except me seemed to get.
When did it start? Can it be backdated? I canny believe none of you telt me.
I tell you what, if this is just one of them theoretical dividends, for me it’s just no enough. I want a theoretical dividend of at least 50k before I’m getting out of bed.
Does anyone have a contact in the small banner business and get them to make a small car banner for the back window saying,
“BBC SCOTLAND TELLS LIES”.
Now, that would look good with Wings stickers at each side of it.
Maybe the same guy who is doing the YES Saltire flags would do it.
The BBC is the opposition in Scotland!
Yeah but they can spout any old bullshit because the BBC and the rest are not going to challenge it and will cover their backs.
I would personally buy a few of those banners. I wish someone would come on and make my night and say, no problem, I’LL print off 10,000 of those banners in the morning.
“BBC SCOTLAND TELLS LIES”.
@TJenny
Can’t make it to CH2 I’m afraid, but Jock is going along to represent the Yew Choob team. Hope you have a great night!
Hang on now, let’s give the boy some credit. What he means is that there’s “no prospect” of the Lib Dem manifesto ever needing to be opened. He’s just being honest…
@HoraceSayYes – Wow that’s some reading.. here’s one of my favourite lines..
UKIP would replace the terms “Scottish Government” with its correct term “Scottish Executive”
Brian Taylors take on todays different figures.
It comes down to who you believe, Alex Salmond or Danny ‘help my pants are on fire’ Alexander.
@Croompenstein
What about Local Government ?
Danny’s Highland Liberals are persistent. They were the only and I mean, only, political party to put up posters in Inverness and Drumnadrochit during the Euro elections, so Danny still can call on a very loyal coterie of activists for help in re-election.
Having said that he is still on a shoogly peg when it comes to 2015 if we vote ‘No’ in September. On the other hand he has totally burned his boats if we vote ‘Yes’. He is oot the windae!
He, Alexander, certainly looked under pressure today, what with the sweat pouring off as he spoke. Wonder if all the lies he esposed are getting to him? Anyway, he is just following the mantra as set out by Ed Balls, when he said that just because something was in the Labour party manifesto, it didn’t actually mean they were going to implement the measure. And following an item on S.T.V news, can someone explain to me why farmers, and fishermen, aren’t solidly behind a Yes vote? With the farmers getting just 11€ per hectare, and in the process being done out of £1 billion between this year and 2020, and with Scottish fishermen not having any input into E.U discussions affecting their livelihood, why not?
“It’s not genius and there’s no trick to it. It’s just Google and paying attention.”
And yet most of the MSM can’t manage it.
You’re too modest, Stu. There IS a kind of genius to it: looking for the truth then following it wherever it leads.
Simple, but not easy.
Danny’s fecked either way.
link to huffingtonpost.co.uk
Danny Alexander Is Going To Lose His Seat To The SNP, Says Lord Oakeshott Poll
Lib Dem chief secretary to the Treasury Danny Alexander will lose his seat at the next general election, according to a poll released by Lord Oakeshott…
The poll shows Alexander, George Osborne’s deputy in the Treasury and one of the most senior members of the coalition, would only secure 16% of the vote in a general election.
Of those asked, 32% said they would vote for and SNP candidate and 25% said they would vote for a Labour candidate. Alexander’s 16% support is also only four points ahead of the Conservatives, who polled 12%.
Wonder how many safe Lib Dem seats are going in England for 2015? Must be like 10 a penny huh.
Well Danny, you better pray the Tories want you as a candidate but I can’t see that happening. What was it the FM said?
‘I warn the Labour party about getting into bed with the Tories. They’ll suck you in and spit you out just like they did the liberal democrats.’
Prepare to be spat out Danny boy.
Wise words from ANNIE LENNOX on Evolution Network lifted fae KILTR.
“An Independent Scotland, pursuing a clean, green and peaceful agenda, can be at the forefront against climate change.”
As a prominent successful Scottish female:
Annie Lennox join the campaign.
Annie Lennox front the campaign.
Scottish women need you now.
Scotland needs you.
We need you.
Annie,
Do a KILTR Live debate.
You will be immortalised.
You will be immortalised forever.
Annie,
Its your destiny.
You know it.
“It’s not genius and there’s no trick to it. It’s just Google and paying attention.”
Aye,but you do it better than most,and for that we’re grateful,and I wish I had the eloquence of a lot of folk on this site.Thank you all and keep fighting the good fight.We can’t lose this,let’s take our country back.
Just printed off that cracking poster of Hamish – looks magnificent in A3 gloss; just need to find somewhere it might be seen by passing hordes
“An Independent Scotland, pursuing a clean, green and peaceful agenda, can be at the forefront against climate change.”
The Scottish Greens have a lot to say on the benefits independence can bring to the environment, not to mention peace and security, and closing the welfare gap.
Its just a pity hardly anyone knows their plans and policies for independence – including getting our own currency instead of being economically shackled to rUK in a currency union – because Yes Scotland only promotes the SNP’s version of independence while ignoring the alternative plans and policies of anyone else.
What worries me a wee bit is the following scenario.
Coalition falls apart.
Cameron calls snap election, postpones referendum.
Conservative government voted in but Cameron not leader. Conservative/UKIP coalition formed.
New coalition government says” We are not bound by any agreements made by previous governments.”
Reassure me friends.
Professor Dunleavy delivers the coup de gras.
The lights will be burning into the early hours in Westminster tonight. This mistake is surely a game changer.
PS:
Lamont script torn up too for FMQ’s, back to persecuting Alex.. errr..Neil instead! Waiting times and hospital infections.
It’s the wee things Johann, calculating setting up costs for a country like Scotland will require more than a new battery in Andy Kerr’s old calculator.
Anyhoo! The prof ain’t happy.
link to bbc.co.uk
From the Scottish Greens ‘Green Yes’ document:
“The SNP Government may find itself playing a weak hand
in negotiating the terms of a common currency arrangement if there is no plan B in readiness, and we therefore call on the Scottish Government, at the very least, to begin exploratory work to determine the steps which would be necessary for the development of a Scottish currency, in order that Scotland truly has the freedom to do so if and when it becomes an accepted necessity”
Why hasn’t it happened?
“Reminds me of Pele, or maybe you’d prefer Willie Miller.”
Whit? Surely Charlie Mulgrew, did nobody see his back heel?
It’s not genius and there’s no trick to it. It’s just Google and paying attention.
It seems to be, however beyond the capability of even the top-ranked journalists and reporters in this country.
Dear BBC, ITV, UK press, the whole sorry lot, it appears that you are not doing your job, and that you are not doing it, deliberately.
And another, not as pretty as the first but we’l take it, mon Scotland!
Rev – to echo fireproofjim and I’m sure all us WOSers sentiments, I dedicate to you:
‘Nobody Does It Better’
link to youtube.com
EBC/STV BREAKING NEWS:
SCOTLAND IS TO WEE, TO POOR (if will be when HMG has gutted it) , TO STUPID. don’t forget now, your stupid at least the no’s are, their really stupid.
@Duggie – You have to remember that in the grand scheme of things this referendum wasn’t supposed to happen. The 2011 result was not supposed to happen under PR voting and may not happen again so when the SNP were voted in with that landslide they were given a mandate by the people to hold a referendum on independence.
The referendum is exactly that, it is a referendum on independence. Not the EU, not NATO, not currency union or anything else it’s just independence.
It has to be independence first. Then, when we have our sovereignty back, we will be able to tackle all the issues as a free people.
SheepOnFire
I do hope Annie Lennox and the rest of our pro-indy artists have more of a voice over the summer.
Call me dave says
Where is the secretary of state for Scotland.
He is back in for more electric treatment. He is in the bed next to Alastair eyebrows
Oh how sweet, is that wee duggie showing off against people’s legs again – bless.
gerry parker 9.06
There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know,that is to say,there are things that we know we don”t know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don”t know we don”t know.
By kind permission of Donald Rumsfeld.
Trust this helps !
“The referendum is exactly that, it is a referendum on independence. Not the EU, not NATO, not currency union or anything else it’s just independence”
Yes but after a yes vote the SNP are planning to make Scotland become an EU and Nato member and form a currency union before the next election, without giving the people of Scotland a say, and despite (as you acknowledge) not having a mandate to do so.
Oh God, not this again.
“Yes but after a yes vote the SNP are planning to make Scotland become an EU and Nato member and form a currency union before the next election, without giving the people of Scotland a say, and despite (as you acknowledge) not having a mandate to do so.”
Actually they have a mandate to do whatever the fuck they see fit until May 2016, whether Scotland becomes independent or not. They won that mandate from the electorate in 2011 and it lasts five years. When it expires, if the electorate don’t like what they’ve done they can vote someone else in, including any party that may be promising an EU referendum. End of story.
You’ve made your point about 50 times now, we all understand it, and I’m very very bored of it. Careful.
@Duggie
The SNP may not be in government after the next election
Duggie dear -you are a bit off the topic of thread of the discussion here if you’d like to go to the previous thread we can have a wee natter there.
@callmedave
Most important part of the whole article, in my opinion;
Prof Young added: “… there are other possible costs and benefits from independence that may be less easily measured.
“The larger point is that it might be worth being £1,400 worse off if there are benefits that come with that, like a secure position in the European Union or the capacity to redistribute being able to achieve higher growth rates.
“Those are the real contestable elements. The transactions costs are short term.”
ooops, that’s me telt an’all.
Sorry Duggie, that was said in a bit of a rush – I really didn’t want you to embarrass yourself like you did last night, now come along before the folk who know what they’re talking about take notice, go to ‘the news lest fit to print’ – it’s just below here dear.
Duggie is a troll. Remember the golden rule!
@Jim Marshall .
Thanks Jim, I’ll sleep better tonight.
It seems my longer comment disappeared into some cyberspace place. Possibly the one where all the odd socks go.
I ranted about how the Finnish national broadcaster YLE takes all their Scotland things from BBC or English MSM. Gaaargh!
I actually sent a proper complaint to YLE after reading a London correspondent’s ill-informed piece.
I point out that FT and LSE have already debunked the UK gov guff, so it’s pretty embarrassing for YLE
Peter – I know dear – I entice them in and then chew on their sensitive parts for hours, I just love the way they squirm.
Good photo opportunity! Buy a second hand bed, drape it in union jack quilt cover. Drag it down to BBC Scotland, place BBC and Better Together logos in it and spread it round social media. Be a laugh if nothing else. ???? I’m actually being serious suggesting this. Salvation army sell second hand bed’s. Just need to get it delivered to flat nearby and drag it over.
The biggest joke is that Muppet being given airtime with 8% of the vote! But in Government dictating terms to the Scots who never voted for him.There are more Tories than liberals in Scotland he is a nothing to us!
@Paula
…and nobody knows how you survive on trolls 3 times a day ! IGMC
Is one of the models that Alexander is using not from the Quebec 1995 Referendum?
What is that all about. How can you compare Quebec in 1995 with Scotland.
Bugger (the Panda), Clootie and Croomenstein,
our colleague, CameronB Brodie commented a while back that Alistair Carmicheal suffered from the Dunning–Kruger effect.
It looks like Danny may be afflicted with the same problem.
“If you’re incompetent, you can’t know you’re incompetent. […] the skills you need to produce a right answer are exactly the skills you need to recognize what a right answer is.”
—David Dunning
I wonder if this affliction is highly contagious. It certainly is rife throughout the Liberal Party and could be spreading right across BT.
@ kendomacroonbar – they are so few and far between, first square meal I’ve had in ages.
off we go again….
link to ft.com
Scotland data duel stokes voter distrust
Statistical showdown over costs and benefits of independence
•Editorial More than money binds the union
•John McDermott The nonsense of the ‘independence bonus’
•Dispute over economic impact of Scottish independence
•Lombard Scottish stats battle / FirstGroup / Revenue rule
lumilumi 9.36
Good on you,get them telt.
O/T – Scotland u-21’s unlucky tonight, the Dutch just shaded it!
Today on Sky news they were pressing a anti Cleg line, almost, saying he should resign. Then commenting that maybe another Lib Dem ” heavyweight” should be brought in, Someone like “Danny Alexander”?
What planet are they on!
Aye trolls are like buses you wait for ages and then……shhhhhhh!
Les Wilson 9.48
Seems Vince Cable is making a bid for leader while absolutely denying it.
@Les Wilson – to be fair he does look like he’s fond of a fish supper.
Danny Liar
You can always rely on the resident “comfort blanket” scottish_skier.
Highlighting the fact that Alexander is behind in the poll for his Inverness constituency.
He would lose it to SNP.
Smile Danny, you’re on candid camera!
Duggie says:
“the SNP are planning to make Scotland become an EU and Nato member and form a currency union before the next election, without giving the people of Scotland a say”
That may be so, but as an independent country any subsequent Scottish government could rescind those decisions. That’s what having our own sovereignty means. Our decisions won’t be made for us in London.
Has Danny seen this series of seven videos?
link to youtube.com
BTW you lot are on good form tonight I’ve been PMSL at some of the comments
@lumilumi
Your piece on YesAberdeen Facebook was awesome.
Everyone must read it.
Finlands freedom.
Scotlands freedom.
Our freedom.
Welcome to Scotland.
You’re a true Scot.
You’ve a brain twice mine.
Keep posting true and strong.
Oh, sorry, are you lot still concerned about Duggie – hold on I need my dental floss…
Whoops, really, this is a serious site – sorry Rev.
Shallow, 2 faced, lying, self serving creep.
House of Lords material.
“Sorry Duggie, that was said in a bit of a rush – I really didn’t want you to embarrass yourself like you did last night”
How did I apparently embarrass myself?
Duggie dear if you want an answer go to ‘the news less fit to print,’ as I said, you might need some correction.
“That may be so, but as an independent country any subsequent Scottish government could rescind those decisions”
You can’t just ‘rescind’ your membership of organisations like the EU and Nato, there would is a lengthy period of notice and processes to leave either.
And as for the currency union – it will obviously be a legally binding agreement with a minimum duration of at least 10 years, it would be foolhardy for rUK (and Scotland for that matter) to agree to something that either side could leave whenever it wanted.
So even if we overwhelmingly elect a party opposed to all of the above in May 2016 it will be too late to do anything about them, at least for the short term, because we’ll already have been forced into them without a choice by the SNP.
Gosh dear – I thought I’d chewed your brain quite thoroughly, silly me – a new species of troll, an extra thick one.
Now please Duggie dear join me on the previous thread and we acan leave the grown-ups to do the serious stuff.
“The SNP may not be in government after the next election”
That’s why they’re planning to implement their EU/Nato membership and currency union plans before the next election.
Wings Over Scotland commenting rules:
“by all means disagree, by all means disagree forcefully – but argue with people’s views, don’t insult them personally. And that includes calling them “trolls” or implying they’re undercover Unionists”
lets see what Scotland vote no 2014 is saying tonight
Duggie’s Dung
we’ll already have been forced into them without a choice by the SNP.
Almost word for word clap-trap as last time, and the time before.
@Dougie
Are you asking or telling me Dougie ?
Duggie dear – what point are you trying to make? Because even I’m having problems deciphering your tortured logic!!!
Edulis at 8.32pm.
You do have a bit of an argument there, but then it is the same argument of the Red Rose Donkey type.
Don’t forget that the Liberals instituted the Crofting Commision way back in 1888 the first time the peoples in the Highlands had a voice and secured security of tenure rather than being cleared off the land and seeing familys torn apart, it’s hard to forget history, especially when someone, anyone, actually allows a voice.
Much as the Liberals never have delivered the ‘Home Rule’ they have swithered about for oh? …over a hundred years, well think on this, it is the same claims that Labour make to the ‘working class’ and how only they will deliver an equitable society.
Truth is there are entrenched ideals regarding the two most mendatious partys here, but I think if my Mother can as an ex-Lib (70yrs old Skye born and bred)vote for the SNP at the last national, Westminster and European elections, recognising that at least they care about Scotland and the people that live here then we do have hope.
Lets make sure that for those that will follow we do it right. I think traditional Labour voters are going the same way too.
Kind Regards
Alisdair
We can win this lets all do it.
I have to admit this Better Together ad is very good.
link to bellacaledonia.org.uk
“Actually they have a mandate to do whatever the fuck they see fit until May 2016, whether Scotland becomes independent or not. They won that mandate from the electorate in 2011”
They were elected to govern as a devolved government, and they therefore have a mandate to govern as a devolved government, including enacting whatever they want from their 2011 manifesto.
They have no mandate to enact anything whatsoever that will affect an independent Scotland, particularly things such as currency union and EU/Nato membership that were not in their manifesto and which the people of Scotland have never had any say on, either electorally or via a referendum.
“They were elected to govern as a devolved government, and they therefore have a mandate to govern as a devolved government, including enacting whatever they want from their 2011 manifesto.”
Which includes independence, and therefore any ramifications logically arising therefrom.
What they DON’T have a mandate for is to take Scotland out of the EU, nor even to hold a referendum on it. Scotland was in the EU when they found it, and their policy position in the manifesto was to keep Scotland in the EU, therefore their obligation is for Scotland to still be in the EU at the end of their term of office. Come 2016, the Scottish people get to decide again whether they’d like to elect a government that wants to change that.
We’re on the very last fibre of the last thread of my patience now.
Better Together is crap.
Concentrate.
KEEP YOUR EYE ON THE BALL
Don’t get distracted.
Oh Paula, your up for it tonight! Lol!
So Duggie – my little uber-separatist, we get out of the EU, NATO, The Commonwealth and everything, is that your wish? Many want to lose the Queen – I presume that is your desire as well?
Dave
Professor Patrick Dunleavy delivers the coup de gras.
What I find so bemusing is the naive way the Treasury plagiarised LSE research and then presented it as if their own, but turned up to 11.
Do they not have their own backroom economists? Were they hoping LSE embossed work gave their lies authenticity?
Hapless Alexander has to face the nation’s press knowing the Treasury has completely undermined his day and his message. They set themselves on fire to prove what? They chose the work of a prominent theorist with Irish heritage. How dumb is that?
Will be expecting a wee fluffy interview for the FM on Scotland 1984 tonite, just like wee Danny’s last night!
@Dougie
Was the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan in the Labour manifesto ?
“we get out of the EU, NATO, The Commonwealth and everything, is that your wish?”
No, personally I’m in favour of EU membership and opposed to Nato membership.
But that, together with the currency union, should be a decision for the people of Scotland to make – we have a democratic sovereign right to do so – it should not be decide by the SNP before the next election, without giving us a say and without them having a mandate to do so.
And that will be my last word on the subject for now.
Duggie dosesn’t seem to have realised that the SNP won the last election.
It is the government of Scotland and is proceeding on its policies – which is what winning an election means – exactly as does every other democratically elected government.
Some other government, elected freely in an independent Scotland, might do things differently. The people will decide
We’ve had cleverer trolls
link to en.wikipedia.org
And that will be my last word on the subject for now.
It has all the entertainment of a balloon deflating as it zigzags through the air farting in all directions.
Salmond on Scotland’s “Wan Show” at this moment – 10.37pm.
“Duggie dosesn’t seem to have realised that the SNP won the last election”
See my post at 10.26pm.
Just watching Sarah Smith, introducing tonight’s show, while she is ok looking at one time anyway. However, she is a real soor dook, like someone stole her soor plooms!
She promised a laugh last night, which was really another organised anti Salmond “laugh”.
Aye she has a sense of humour eh not!
Sorry to come here so late, and I haven’t read all the comments above…
But this “needs-based formula” sounds just plain toxic.
Who defines “needs”? The SE England electorate.
From the London perspective, A9 doesn’t NEED to be dualled, the M25 NEEDS to be quadrupled, and so on.
The Barnett formula ensured that Scotland got at least some of its money back; scrap Barnett and Scotland gets even less of its own money back.
You Scots residents MUST vote YES. You’ve got this unique opportunity to get away from Westminster and neolib TINA economics. Save yourselves! Vote YES!
“The UK has seen a dramatic drift toward a low-tax,
low-wage, low-investment economy. It serves only the
interests of those who’re already wealthiest, and it would
be a fatal mistake for Scotland to repeat the same folly.
We’ll reverse the trend toward ever-lower corporation
tax, in the knowledge that most businesses care more
about decent infrastructure and a healthy, educated
workforce than they do about the more marginal issue
of tax levels.”
This is what we should be aspiring towards in an independent Scotland.
NO FEEDING
What do you say to a troll with two black eyes?
Nothing, he’s been told twice already.
@Dugggie
Independence was in their manifesto and just in case anyone thought they weren’t serious about it they spent some time in the previous parliament as a minority government trying to get a referendum bill passed.
So everyone who voted SNP in 2010 knew of fucking well should have known that an independence referendum was a consequence of that vote. So they do have a mandate to pursue independence from the electorate, subsequent to a Yes vote.
Fancy that? a party that keeps its manifesto commitments, especially those it trumpets loudly. What a novel idea!
Sad personal post tonight.
I don’t have the words to comment.
link to tarffadvertiser.blogspot.co.uk
“So everyone who voted SNP in 2010 knew of fucking well should have known that an independence referendum was a consequence of that vote”
2011. And yes, they certainly have a mandate to hold an independence referendum.
Jim Murphy, you are a fraud.
Future Labour lord Jim Murphy trying to not get hysterical on stv there, save my job please please save my job but he’s backed up by a moron audience member who wants to keep Trident “because what happens when they drop the bomb on us.”
Maybe we really are too stupid.
Salmond is followed by the BBC’s “Collette O’Neill” – if I heard her name correctly – their “economic expert” someone with no track record, now interviewed to deconstruct what Salmond said, and suggest both sides, Treasury too, are putting up their best figures.
Is the producer a BBC London refugee?
Which patronising bastards at the BBC decided viewers are so dumb that they need a complete unknown to explain what we have already heard, and in so doing, demote it to an empty press release?
Do you hear the English accents? Have we such a paucity of talent in Scotland that our alleged own politics show has to import nonentities?
That’s two “shows” in a row confirming I am listening to BBC propaganda on behalf of HM Government.
@heedtracker
In fairness she qualified the comment by stating the MAD scenario.
Duggie.
You are Douglas Alexander and I claim my £10 and I name your hobby as going on fishing expeditions.
Sling your hook!
@Duggie – I missed the bit where we had a referendum on joining the EU(Common Market) or NATO in the first place. And the Government set up the Fiscal Commission to advise on the best currency solution for Independent Scotland. They have advised currency union as the best option. I trust the Scottish Government to act in the best interests of the Scottish people and not everyone is going to agree with everything but we must secure independence first.
“the Scottish Government must recognise that as yet they have no mandate for their policies in reserved areas. From NATO membership to the level of Corporation Tax, they should not lock Scotland in to their preferred policies, unless the Scottish people give them a mandate to do so in 2016.”
link to scottishgreens.org.uk
O.K. folks are we all really excited and full of adrenalin after watching the *ahem* interview with the First Minister on the UKIP Channel’s, sorry BBC2’s, Scotland 2014 *cough* programme?
Wasn’t it an upright and respectful interview, almost 10 times better than that atrocious interview they pushed onto dear old Danny Alexander last night right?
(call me dave xxx)
Good decision,welcome to yes,that audience member.
“I missed the bit where we had a referendum on joining the EU(Common Market) or NATO in the first place”
We didn’t. How does that make it okay for us to again not get a say on becoming a member of the EU and Nato?
An independent Scotland should give us more democracy than we get as part of the UK.
“They have advised currency union as the best option”
What is the best currency option for Scotland is not up to the fiscal commission, it is up to the Scottish people.
STOP FEEDING THE FUCKING DUGGIE! Please folks – he’s so boring.
“Duggie dear -you are a bit off the topic of thread of the discussion here if you’d like to go to the previous thread we can have a wee natter there.”
Guan yersel Duggie
Now Paula Rose has shone the ushers torch on you your certain to get chucked out before the main feature,
Peter says
“Duggie is a troll. Remember the golden rule!”
Dont feed them after midnight?
Duggie says: “That will be my last word on the subject.
And ten minutes later…
Duggie says:“the Scottish Government must recognise that…
I object to you constant yapping derailing conversations while I am trying to discuss a topic with genuine posters!
BBC Scotland Newsnight dumped todays Economics story quick.
Alex Salmond bested Sarah Smith, I saw it in her face, I saw it in her eyes. She’s done.
She wheeled on lightweight Collete Smith(who), amateurish BBC Scotland’s Economic cub reporter, who has no economics qualifications.
Who’s writing her scripts, as she’s not an economist.
Well well she has a POLITICS degree.
link to agendani.com
ps. where’s BBC business economy editor Douglas Fraser? Bermuda triangle!
Scotland 2014, excellent stuff, now there is a footballer being interviewed on the independence referendum?
Beggars belief.
@ kendomacaroonbar, and she’s changed from don’t know to YES! which is rather brilliant. I think it was her, Murphy was certainly give her big licks with the charm offensive, or his tick’s getting worse.
Sarah Smith isn’t very bright if she thinks she can try and put one over Alex Salmond. The pathetic attempt to suggest that it was Alex Salmond who was rubbishing the Treasury report was dispached with style by him.
Juan P 10.22pm
Brilliant YES video. Re-Posted,
link to bellacaledonia.org.uk
“Duggie. You are Douglas Alexander and I claim my £10 and I name your hobby as going on fishing expeditions.”
You’d make more sense if you suggested I was Patrick Harvie, given the fact I’m promoting the Scottish Green’s independence plans and policies.
“Sling your hook!”
As I understand it, this site supports Scottish independence and isn’t affiliated to any one particular party.
Is there a reason why you’re demanding that I leave, despite the fact that I’m actively supporting independence, including promoting the policies of an independence-supporting party, and actively standing up for the democratic sovereign rights of the Scottish people?
ps. where’s BBC business economy editor Douglas Fraser? Bermuda triangle!
His wife’s probably chained him up in his bedroom like what Jane Fonda and Dolly Parton did their boss in 9 to 5.
Wow, they want to get Michael Stewart on Scotland 2014 every night, he told more truth in five minutes than any reporter has all year. We’ll probably never see him again.
It is all lies. Even if Danny appears as in thrall to Gideon as Beaker is to Bunsen, we should not, must not, can not make the cheap comparison unless or until we know that his eyes light up when being electrocuted /* evil grin emoticon */
Colin
Beggars belief.
Moronic stuff.
There’s more substance in a feather pillow.
A gaggle of hooray Henrys, amateur interviewers fresh from St Trinian’s School armed with third class (smoking) passes in Media Studies – a two week course! – sent out to interview the Scotch natives under the watchful eye of Head Girl, Sarah Smith.
“Duggie says:“the Scottish Government must recognise that…”
I didn’t say that, the Scottish Green Party did.
You’ve heard of something called ‘quotation marks’ right?
“I object to you constant yapping”
And I object to you and others trying to turn this site into one that supports only the SNP’s version of ‘independence’ while trying to censor and stifle the independence plans and policies of other parties.
Not to mention the fact that you’re actively arguing agains the democratic sovereign rights of the Scottish people.
Michael Stewart former hearts hibs and scotland footballer very articulate yes supporter on bbc scotland 2014.
Lets see more of him
@benarmine – I was well impressed with Michael Stewart on Scotland 2014, good to hear a footballer not saying ehhh after every sentence. The boy could play a bit too..
No flies on the First Minister these days folks. As you say rab Sarah Smith *ahem* claimed that the First Minister had rubbished the Treasury report.
WHOOSH/b>
What was that?
Before you could say First Minister the response was out…it wasn’t the First Minister who rubbished the Treasury report it was Professor Patrick Dunleavy. (I think there was a definite under tone of get yer facts right you stupid little lassie before attempting to slander me!)
Dammit post has screwed up AGAIN !
@Heedtracker
The lady’s comments were typical of what I hear, they instinctively know something is akilter, but they just need reasoned argument to point the in the right direction. Murphy is a false prophet, a fraud a charlatan, and to think I defended the guy during the helicopter crash in Glasgow when I realise now he’s just a scum bag douche bag opportunist.
That was a bold statement Lesley-Anne.
Family Guy just started on BBC 3. It makes more sense.
Croompenstein
Its a sad day when our footballers are better informed and more articulate than our ‘journalists’.
Lesley Anne
it wasn’t the First Minister who rubbished the Treasury report, it was Professor Patrick Dunleavy.
Spot on. By all accounts he’s livid over what the Treasury did to misrepresent his work.
Heedtracker
Future Labour lord Jim Murphy trying to not get hysterical on stv
Missed that – its BBC competition is on simultaneously, but I think STV’s is repeated in an hour on a side channel?
O/T – talking of football a decent result for Scotland tonight against Nigeria in London(I know). We have once again got a decent football team and reason for optimism.
Duggie
And your point is?
Governments don’t make policies when they are in government?
Governments don’t make policies to go to future elections with?
As I said we have had cleverer trolls
Well done, Michael Stewart.
Sarah Smith is sinking already.
Sadly
Thought she might be a new start as she is apparently intelligent
A column by Jamie Maxwell regarding the latest BT booklet.
link to newstatesman.com
kendomacaroonbar at 11.08
Well said, Ken. Time the Helensburgh lie was exposed
Dave McEwan Hill do you have a link for this assertion –
“she is apparently intelligent”
“And your point is?”
My point is that the SNP were elected as a devolved government and do not have a mandate to enact anything that will affect an independent Scotland.
The Scottish people have a democratic sovereign right to have a say on crucial currently reserved policies that the SNP have no mandate to enact, such as currency union and EU/Nato membership.
The Scottish Greens agree:
“The Scottish Government must recognise that as yet they have no mandate for their policies in reserved areas. From NATO membership to the level of Corporation Tax, they should not lock Scotland in to their preferred policies, unless the Scottish people give them a mandate to do so in 2016.”
Are they ‘trolling’ too?
link to scottishgreens.org.uk
Only that I know somebody who was very close to her at one point and that is how she appeared to be. I expected better. Perhaps she needs time to get up to speed. Like most of the London mockjocks she has been swallowing nonsense about Scotland for years.
We can but hope
Can I have a mivvi and a box of popcorn please?
(John dear – I think you can look forward to another spanking- now ssh)
Duggie
And your point is?
You appear to deliberately missing the point or perhaps you don’t understand.
SNP will be contesting the first independent election and we are hearing its policies. Is that clear enough?
Murphy is like a demented budgie screeching away when Blair Jenkins was trying to answer questions, where was the referee? Murphy is heading for a breakdown.
Murphy is in full panic mode SOS – Save Oor Salaries. Yep SLAB are in full hunker down mode, and they won’t let unlucky Jim in the think he’s a TOLLY.
There are a few NO troops MIA: Carmichael, wee Danny, Johan, Magrit, Fraser (EBC), Davidson, Kelly, Glesga Cooncil, Ming the moron. Sorry they are just missing they ain’t capable of action, you would get more life in a tramps vest.
@John King
Whit, Nae Kiora ?
I seem to remember that the SNP, who is probably the largest Scottish party in terms of actual members, had a conference vote on NATO membership, made the news and everything.
The referendum is a vote on Independence, on nothing else, if someone claims that they have no mandate to be part of NATO, well they have no explicit mandate to leave NATO either
those decisions are for the government of an Independent Scotland, as it is, the SNP have a mandate to negotiate as they see fit in their goal of the referendum, and they have said they will include a broad range of folk in the negotiations.
First step, though, as always, is Independence
Oi Dave McEwan Hill – stop.
@ SheepOnFire 10.06pm
I haven’t seen the “Lumi’s” piece on YesAberdeen’s Facebook you refer to because I don’t facebook, haven’t since about 2010, but I suppose it’s the same thing that did the rounds in January this year.
Rev Stu contacted me to ask if he could publish it here on WoS, and I was baffled.
I wrote something like that way back when BBC’s “Blether with Brian” was still open for comments.
It seems somebody is being a bit naughty, copying and probably slightly altering my old rant without asking me.
I’m a bit miffed about it. The YES side was supposed to be the positive and honest side.
I can’t get to see what this “Lumi” person has posted on the YesAberdeen site (I don’t facebook) but I suppose it’s pretty much what I’d say. All pro-independence etc.
I, the genuine lumilumi, am always lumilumi, not just lumi. (lumi is Finnish for snow. I love snow so lumilumi means “snowsnow”, lots of snow and lots of fun and happiness.)
David
Only that I know somebody who was very close to her at one point and that is how she appeared to be
She’s not ruthless enough. (I have met her.)
The problem lies with the producer’s immature, derivative vision, and the heavy hand of the nation state’s chief broadcaster, a combination guaranteed to sink any chance the programme might have to illuminate understanding of the issues affecting Scotland’s democracy.
It sees itself as a mini-Panorama … in the provinces.
It does not have the courage of its convictions.
In four words: It. Is. Not. Dynamic.
“You appear to deliberately missing the point or perhaps you don’t understand. SNP will be contesting the first independent election and we are hearing its policies. Is that clear enough?”
I’m afraid its you who is missing the point. The SNP are planning to enact their currency union and EU/Nato policies BEFORE the next election, without giving the people of Scotland a say, and despite not having a mandate to do so.
The Scottish Greens, rightly, state that they “should not lock Scotland in to their preferred policies, unless the Scottish people give them a mandate to do so in 2016.”
Sadly that is exactly what they are planning to do.
@ lumilumi – hi doll!
@ Call Me Dave:
‘Broadsword calling Danny Boy…’
So many options…
‘Yer tea’s oot’
‘Yer jaiket’s on a shoogly peg’
‘Yer tatties are oo’er the side’
Duggie is Douglas Fraser!! Back from the Bermuda Triangle! Sorry haven’t missed you one bit on Radio Scotland!
Broadsword calling Danny Boy…
Chuckle. Where Eagle’s Dare.
@ lumilumi – I’ve got a jar of marmalade with your name on it, we will find a way of getting it to you.
@call me dave
He has gone from spinner to fly fishing and now live baiting.
Guys, I read earlier that Douglas Fraser is poorly, let’s bag it for a while eh ? just in case.
Brilliant comments in the Scotsman.
“Poll reveals Danny Alexander’s seat at risk”.
link to scotsman.com
@Duggie. I believe you. There are some things I’m not totally in agreement with either (like keeping the royal family for instance) but for me the priority right now is a yes vote, everything else can come after that. I’d rather have a yes with issues than a no with the horrors that come with that.
After the Referendum we’ll need to open a Job Centre specifically for ex-Scots unionist MPs, that and a retirement home. Lots of cupcakes decorated with Union Jacks in vanilla icing, and Union Jack bedspreads to keep them happy.
Grouse Beater dear – we’ll need a job centre for us worn out cybernats.
Duggie
They cannot enact any of those policies unless we vote for independence and SNP is then elected as the first Government of an independent Scotland.
They have no power to enact them unless they are the government of an independent Scotland.
The people will elect them – or not – on the basis of those and other policies.
Goodnight
Paula Rose says:
Grouse Beater dear – we’ll need a job centre for us worn out cybernats.
It’s already built Paula, it’s called the “Darkened Room.”
It is open 24/7 open to one and all big enough for any party or just a long snooze on your own. Drink flows like water.
Danny’s fantasy world is coming to an end.
Him and Nick sold every principle that they ever had, so they could get a seat at the top table with the Tories.
Coming back to haunt them.
@ Paula – Is it MacKay’s Vintage Orange Marmalade?
I was at the supermarket today and got very annoyed because they didn’t have MacKay’s Vintage Orange Marmalade, or the ordinary stuff, only Orange and Whisky Marmalade. I bought a jar because I like orange marmalade and I like whisky.
It’s great to be back here on WoS, I’ve been away somewhere offline. Went to a family do, and discovered that my cousin’s husband is a local councillor for Finland’s UKIP-type party. Ouch! Made sure we did not talk politics to disrupt the generally happy atmosphere.
“@Duggie. I believe you”
Thanks. I certainly agree with you that a yes is preferable to a no.
But I’m uncomfortable with the idea that after a yes vote, when we should be looking forward to a progressive democracy with the Scottish people being sovereign, instead we are going to have crucial issues such as currency union and EU/Nato membership decided over our heads without giving us a say, by a party that has no mandate to do so.
I understand the point that a yes vote should be the number one priority, and that at some point in the future we would be able to overturn those decisions if we wanted, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to stop standing up for the democratic sovereign rights of the Scottish people, as the Scottish Greens are doing, by arguing that we should not be locked into things like the currency union without being given the opportunity to have a say on them first.
SNP policy has been EU and NATO membership for a while now. That was always going to be the position they sought in the independence settlement. I think plenty of us disagree about NATO and I know a few who oppose EU membership, but that IS democracy. The SNP’s platform is pretty well known. While I would welcome a healthy debate about both issues over the next few years, I don’t think you can argue that the SNP has no mandate.
“They cannot enact any of those policies unless we vote for independence and SNP is then elected as the first Government of an independent Scotland”
So why have the SNP consistently stated, including in their white paper, that they plan to negotiate on those policies between 2014-16, and that they expect them to be enacted on independence day in March 2016, all before the next election?
we’ll need a job centre for us worn out cybernats.
Since my website took off – starting it a more positive expression than shouting at the television screen – it has proved a spur to greater action! I am rejuvenated!
My private notion was a hope I might convince one person to vote Yes, as Margo enjoined us to do – from responses to essays I have a feeling I have done just that.
Today, I handed the hour left on my parking ticket to an incoming driver.
“Hey! Thanks. Very generous. Can I pay you?”
“Of course. Vote Yes!”
And off I drove with a wave.
“SNP policy has been EU and NATO membership for a while now… I don’t think you can argue that the SNP has no mandate”
They only did their Nato u-turn in 2012 – after the last Scottish election, so they certainly don’t have a mandate for that.
And they don’t have a mandate for any of the other reserved power policies they plan to enact after a yes vote either – because they were elected as a devolved government, with no policies in their manifesto on currency union and EU membership and without the power to enact those policies even if they had been – so the people of Scotland did not give them an electoral mandate to enact those policies, even if they were known about previously.
Scotland 2014 – why no interview with Prof Dunleavy? At least Alex made it clear that it was not him who was objecting to the figures. I was also surprised at the intelligent answers from the footballer (stereotyping I know!).
I did notice that again it was a very female centric programme, which can only be a good thing, though I do object to the liteness of this programme, and please, does Sarah really need to perch on the desk like that?!
Scotland Tonight – where did they dig the audience up from?! Beginning to wonder if perhaps we really are “too stupid”…
Regarding the 2 opposing analysis released today, and the narrative that it became, i.e. who can you believe? – was it really such a good idea for the Scottish Govt to release theirs on the same day? Instead of the car crash of the UK’s data being false, and perhaps more probing analysis of their claims, it became a straight black/white “who do you trust?” issue.
@Duggie
What point are you trying to make exactly ?
O/T A fairly detailed, fascinating and different personal perspective on NATO membership after independence from US commentator.
link to reddit.com
@Duggie
We are in the EU, NATO and have the pound at the moment, The SNP were voted in and had Independence in their manifesto. They didn’t put leaving the EU,leaving Nato and leaving the pound in the manifesto, just leaving the UK.
All these issues can be discussed once a YES vote is achieved.
@ lumilumi – home-made darling.
Duggie: Can you imagine if the SNP had produced a white paper which said “We’ll have a series of referendums between September 2014 and March 2016 to decide what currency we might have and whether or not we are in NATO or if we are going to be electing a president”?
The press would have had a field day and Better Together would right now be campaigning on the lack of clarity and uncertainty that a yes vote would bring. It might have made a no vote almost certain. It is vital that we know what we are voting for, even if some of us don’t agree with it.
“We are in the EU, NATO and have the pound at the moment”
We’re not a member of either the EU or Nato, and we’re not in a currency union with a separate state.
“They didn’t put leaving the EU,leaving Nato and leaving the pound in the manifesto, just leaving the UK”
Unfortunately they’re not mutually exclusive.
Stop petting the annoying mongrel dears – he’ll only go and wet himself again.
@ Duggie
I’ve been away for a while but it seems you’re still banging on the same drum.
Let’s get a couple of things straight.
The SNP are the government party of Scotland until the next election in 2016. Their 2011 manifesto promised an indy referendum. It’s now happening.
Their government white paper (Scotland’s Future), all 670 pages of it, outlines their vision for an indy Scotland.
That’s what you’ll be voting for on 18 September.
If you don’t like all the details, vote NO by all means, and then wait another 15 or 50 years or forever for your preferred kind of independence to come along.
Newsflash! It ain’t gonna happen.
Now is the chance.
After Scotland is independent, that’s the time to worry about currency, EU, NATO, monarchy etc. etc. None of those things are relevant unless Scotland is independent.
“The press would have had a field day and Better Together would right now be campaigning on the lack of clarity and uncertainty that a yes vote would bring”
Yes I understand your point, but there’s already uncertainty anyway – we have no guarantee that rUK will agree to a currency union for example.
Everything could easily have been decided in one referendum in early 2015, and it could certainly have been presented as very much a positive by the yes campaign: the people of Scotland being given the opportunity to have a democratic say on such important issues, unlike what we get now as part of the UK.
Instead we will have the disappointing reality that the very first important decisions in what should be our new progressive democracy are being made without us being given a say, by a party with no mandate to make them.
I saw several red squirrels today – anyone else have that luxury?
Michael McCabe says Duggie instead of going on and on and on about the SNP Why not put your energy into converting somebody to the Scottish Greens and a Yes Vote.
Danny Alexander? Beaker?
Which one is the real puppet?
“The SNP are the government party of Scotland until the next election in 2016. Their 2011 manifesto promised an indy referendum”
Correct. As I’ve already explained, they were elected as devolved government and have no mandate to enact anything that will affect an independent Scotland. The Scottish Greens say it best:
“they must recognise that as yet they have no mandate for their policies in reserved areas. From NATO membership to the level of Corporation Tax, they should not lock Scotland in to their preferred policies, unless the Scottish people give them a mandate to do so in 2016”
“Their government white paper (Scotland’s Future), all 670 pages of it, outlines their vision for an indy Scotland.
That’s what you’ll be voting for on 18 September”
Not according to the SNP themselves, Yes Scotland, and virtually the entire yes campaign – all of whom state emphatically that a yes vote is only a vote for independence alone and is NOT a vote for the SNP, their policies, or their version of independence.
Again the Scottish Greens say it best:
“The referendum is a simple choice: should Scotland be an independent country? It will establish no mandate for specific policies Scotland might pursue”
@Douglas
Life, as you see it, is not as inevitable as you wish it to be.
I don’t believe you are as sincere as you wish us to believe, or else I can only assume you have learning difficulties ? Yeah ?
As a fully paid up member of the Green party – I’m beginning to get a wee bit hacked off with a certain canine.
“Why not put your energy into converting somebody to the Scottish Greens and a Yes Vote”
That’s exactly what I am doing and have been doing, and will continue to do until September.
Oh well,
Duggie, the SNP have a mandate until 2016 as others have pointed out.We/you can then vote for whoever you want.
However, the real issue and one I am sure you will understand is the PEOPLE in SCOTLAND are sovereign.
With that comes the understanding that if we do not like what they do on our behalf, we can get rid of them.
That is powerful, that is real democracy.
So you can sleep at night and consider well until 2016 arrives.
@ Paula
I see several red squirrels every day – they’re very common here in Finland.
JoLa would be astonished. She’d have no time to “question” the First Minister, she’d just go “Look, a squirrel! Oh! Look, an other one! Look, three squirrels!”
Maybe this red squirrel infested place would be the place for SLAB…
Yawn.
Oh sorry lumilumi a wee duggie was boring the knickers off me, love the reds – we have a problem with greys.
“As a fully paid up member of the Green party”
What an odd Green party ‘member’ you are.
I certainly don’t know many ‘members’ of a party who would abuse and attack someone as a ‘troll’ for promoting that party’s policies.
Likewise not many ‘members’ of a party would spend the last several hours begging other posters to ignore the person promoting the policies and independence views of the party they’re a ‘member’ of.
I don’t doubt that you’re very much a fully paid up member of a political party, but it certainly isn’t the Greens.
@Paula
C’mon there, you’re not 16 I assume ?
My marmalade lumilumi is yummiyummi xx
Bedtime for me and I suspect it’s well past that time for some others – time for your basket Duggie.
“the SNP have a mandate until 2016 as others have pointed out”
For about the 20th time, they have a mandate as a DEVOLVED government only, that is what they were elected as.
They do NOT have a mandate to enact any policies after a yes vote that will in any way affect an independent Scotland – the people of Scotland have NEVER voted for any of their post -yes vote policies because those are RESERVED policies which the SNP do not currently have any power over.
“They must recognise that as yet they have no mandate for their policies in reserved areas. From NATO membership to the level of Corporation Tax, they should not lock Scotland in to their preferred policies, unless the Scottish people give them a mandate to do so in 2016.”
Duggie said:
28 May, 2014 at 10:41 pm
“The UK has seen a dramatic drift toward a low-tax,
low-wage, low-investment economy. It serves only the
interests of those who’re already wealthiest, and it would
be a fatal mistake for Scotland to repeat the same folly.”
I agree, but as Prof. David Harvey said, ‘we are all neo-liberals now’. Westminster, the EU, the IMF, the World Bank. This is the reality of the real world and I think we will have to box clever if we hope to break the trend. I wouldn’t like to suggest the best approach so I’ll haud ma wheesht and take things one step at a time.
A Brief History of Neoliberalism by David Harvey
link to youtube.com
Scotland 2014 – why no interview with Prof Dunleavy?
Too close to the truth.
You can’t just ‘rescind’ your membership of organisations like the EU and Nato, there would is a lengthy period of notice and processes to leave either.
And as for the currency union – it will obviously be a legally binding agreement with a minimum duration of at least 10 years, it would be foolhardy for rUK (and Scotland for that matter) to agree to something that either side could leave whenever it wanted.
People tell us we will be out of the EU and NATO instantly if we vote Yes. If that is the case why would it take years if we chose to do so of our own accord? UKIP hope to leave the EU tout sweet if they get their in out referendum.
A currency union can be dissolved quickly. No one was talking 10 years when Greece was considering falling out of the Euro. What is the economic basis for your assertion that it would be a binding agreement for 10 years?
You are over-stating your case. Future Scottish Governments can consider all these issues should they want to. I think it unlikely a Labour Government would want to leave the EU or NATO though. A currency union would last as long as both sides felt it served a purpose. It is, after all, only money.
Grouse Beater at 11.38pm
I thought the retirement home for old unionists was called the House of Lords.
The last Irish lord died in the sixties so they can while out their lasts days in peace claiming their £300 daily allowance.
Being undemocratic they can not get rid of them if they pay their taxes in England ( errgh – that cannot be right all their money is in tax havens?)
Good eh! We do not need to support them after all – Westminster can.
You are over-stating your case
“Over-stating”? He’s hijacked at least three topics in as many days, and deflected what was good discussion. He’s done it by repeating the self-same crapology every post he’s made in answer to anybody who dares reply to his mono-mania.
MacIntosh
I thought the retirement home for old unionists was called the House of Lords.
Exactly. Damn. And I can’t get rid of the memory of their debate on independence.
An extraordinary display of decrepitude, dumb ignorance, waffle, and sheer hypocrisy.
All Alexander’s ravings about he benefits to Scotland being in the union just suggests that he believes Scotland is incapable of running its own affairs and is dependent on England running them. It’s an insult to Scots. I wish the media interviewers would pick up on this theme and put the question to him.
One of the don’t knows last night suggested that Scotland would be joining the European Communion. I think that many, if not the majority of the don’t knows are incapable of assimilating the info that’s been thrown at them.
I Love reading all your comments and clicking on the links.And I think it is great you are all out there fighting for a yes vote. I Hope Everybody has a great time at CH2 Keep up the good work. In my eyes you are all stars. Roll on the 18th
It’s an insult to Scots. I wish the media interviewers would pick up on this theme and put the question to him.
Too much like a dissenter, an insurgent.
As a matter of daily objective in programme content and viewing figures, the BBC assumes everybody wants to retain the status quo, and so it encourages conformity.
Holy Mother of God, people, BIG PICTURE.
We’re sitting here arguing about whether the SNP government has the mandate on EU membership, NATO membership, currency union, while people are dying of cold in one of the most energy-rich countries on earth, people are being systematically deprived of money in a nation which just recently saw it’s 100th bilionaire resident, and people are starving to death in a First World Country. In the name of all you hold sacred or holy, can we please keep this for after the Yes vote?
Even if I agreed with the Greens in that the SNP don’t have the mandate to make these decisions, here’s the thing: if it gets us away from the clutches of Westminster, I am perfectly willing to let them make the decisions which make the smoothest and least troubling exit from London as possible. We can leave the EU, NATO and currency for another day: right now, we must get away from Westminster and we will not get anywhere squabbling about mandates and inter-party politics.
The only thing that can happen from bringing this up now rather than after September is causing more uncertainty from voters already beleaguered by Unionist propaganda, and will be pounced upon by our implacable foes. Even if the SNP decided to make it cast-iron that they would be in power in perpetuity and Alex Salmond gets to live in Edinburgh Castle for eternity, I’d let that happen – why? Because once we’re independent, we can change that. The power will be ours. We can cast out the SNP and elect in whoever the hell we like. We will get nowhere without a Yes vote.
BIG PICTURE. Christ almighty.
Did you notice that Chief Secretary to the Treasury Danny Alexander when talking about the treasury document said we would be £1,400 better off if we stayed in the UK.Now if you look at Prof Robert Young’s paper which he gave a speech on in 1996 in Edinburgh said. The larger point is that it might be worth being £1,400 worse off if there are benefits that come with that, like a secure position in the European Union or the capacity to redistribute being able to achieve higher growth rates. Now to me it looks like Danny boy and friends have taken the worse off figure and turned it into a pretend positive for his side I maybe mistaken or misunderstood what was said but that is what it looks like when listening to and reading their rubbish.
“They do NOT have a mandate to enact any policies after a yes vote that will in any way affect an independent Scotland”
All I’ll say is that we don’t have an Independent Scotland yet. So all your concerns are like planning an itinerary on the moon when we don’t have a fucking rocket!
I have fought since 1959 to get polaris now tridant out of the holy loch get it to f
@Taranaich 12:56
What you said, a million times.
@Taranaich
Holy Mother of God, people, BIG PICTURE.
Well said.
YES only game in town.
OT I see all the cinema chains have decided to pull all referendum adverts following feedback from customers.
They will continue until June 5th but after that no more wil be shown.
BT already accusing the Yes side of “closing down debate”. You couldn’t make it up!
@taranaich
well said !
@Grouse Beater
House of Lords & Danny Alexander – I knew there was a connection.
My brother is up in Inverness – lots of Yessers up there now.
link to huffingtonpost.co.uk
So I think he will make a bolt for the House of Lords – Tory Lord or Lib Dem Lord – he probably has the choice.
Sorry about the fit of pique there guys, but we NEED to keep our eyes on the prize. Don’t like how the SNP are doing things? Fine – leave it till after we have a Yes vote, where we can actually do something about it. Right now, we can’t do anything about what the SNP are doing by virtue of most of our powers lying in Westminster’s, NOT Holyrood’s hands.
Picking a fight with the SNP now would be like Grimlock deciding to pick a fight with Rodimus Prime while Galvatron’s luring Unicron into Cybertron’s orbit – at least wait until AFTER we’ve taken care of the Ravager of Worlds and his agents before deciding who’s best suited to lead the Autobots.
Sorry, I get very geeky when I’m frustrated, and the Decepticons didn’t deserve to be insulted by comparison to Better Together.
@duggie
If a Yes vote in the referendum is not a mandate to negotiate the terms of independence, for the current government of Scotland, what in your view, is it?
The majority of the areas you highlight, are part of the staus quo, we are, at the moment, as a part of the UK, members of all the institutions you list.
What you appear to be proposing, is that all these points should be settled before any negotiations regarding independence take place. In the time frame proposed, this is simply unrealistic.
As for me, the main point is independence, that’s the prize. After which I’ll put my cross against the party who best match my views, as can you. That’s democracy.
‘Taranaich says:
29 May, 2014 at 12:56 am
‘…… BIG PICTURE……..
…………
BIG PICTURE.’
Good point – in fact, the only point.
Ian
Michael McCabe, jump in and stay in. This is where the party’s at
Taranaich, that was so geeky, I had to Google it to understand what the hell it was all about. LOL.
The Transformers were a wee bit after my time… but it turns out, we are the Transformers… The Ravagers of the old redundant corrupticons in the establishment political class.
@Alba4Eva
Yep this is a party and I propose a toast to those that will soon be toast.
Ladies and Gents raise your glass to Danny Alexander, David Coburn, Nigel Farage, David Cameron, George Osborne, Johann Lamont and the one and only Alastair Darling.
Cheers, you are doing it for us.
Reading some of the comments on this page I am reminded of what happened at the battle of The Broxburn burn when Cromwell routed a much larger Scots army.
Prior to the battle Scots Kirk Ministers went around dismissing anyone in the Scots ranks whom they considered to be unpure Christians.
Result was that all the people who really could lead and fight were not on the Scots side during the battle which was then lost through incompetence.
O/T Is there still a bus leaving from bonny Dundee for the Coontin Hoose on Friday. And if so, what time & place?
Jonny all will be revealed later today, I need to discuss with the bus company first. Glad your onboard. Oh and bring a friend.
It’s not genius and there’s no trick to it. It’s just Google and paying attention.
Stu your eyes must get soiled though.
@Taranaich 12.56am
First class.
Interesting wee blog here.
blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/archives/42343
O/T – great takedown of Baillie regarding the benefits of Faslane to Helensburgh, over at Bella Caledonia. She got found out over the huge employee numbers, and why they don’t actually spend any money locally.
link to bellacaledonia.org.uk
Thanks Macart, I think their Archive will be interesting reading, not least given the following.
British Government@LSE is a School-wide initiative, developed and led by the Government Department, to promote research, teaching and engagement about government, politics and policy in Britain. It builds on the long tradition of links between LSE, Westminster and Whitehall. Recent developments in British politics, including the decline of the traditional ‘two-party’ system, devolution to Scotland and Wales, constitutional reform, the Coalition government and the UK’s complex relationship with the EU strengthen the need for analysis and public engagement about results. BG@LSE will act as a focus for research and teaching. It also manages a programme of public lectures, seminars, symposia and visiting speaker programmes addressing scholars, civil and public servants and all students of British politics.
link to blogs.lse.ac.uk
Pretty obvious this “Duggie” is a fully paid up concern troll…
3 threads hijacked already with the same nonsense, stop feeding.
Here is one already, though not from the Archive.
Better Together’s campaign creates a strategic dilemma for Scottish Labour
link to blogs.lse.ac.uk
I really don’t see a convincing majority for No, so it looks like Labour’s North Britain branch are going to be the big looser after September. I do keep suggesting this to their HQ workers.
Book a seat for me
Sorry, it is indeed from the Archive. Silly me. Breakfast time.
“(John dear – I think you can look forward to another spanking- now ssh)”
Awww no again,
I suppose you’ll want me to go an pick the switch?
you spend far too much time talking to THepnr
Ok Im going Im going
Mary Bruce says
“for me the priority right now is a yes vote, everything else can come after that. I’d rather have a yes with issues than a no with the horrors that come with that.”
And for that we can place the blame squarely at the door of the msm, because if they had been even slightly balanced the outcome of the referendum would be a certainty, and we would be spending our time dealing what we want instead of firefighting the ever more ridiculous claims by the media and the talking heads who must be coining it in for sitting talking absolute pish and being described as experts (I’m looking at you Smart, Pia, Curtice,et al)
Your absolutely right Mary the lack of substance about what Scotland needs and wants is totally down to the ever more disgusting attacks on our intellegence.
Dr JM Mackintosh says
“Danny Alexander? Beaker?
Which one is the real puppet?”
I dont find him that amusing I think of him more like
a Ginger Rodent
Duggie says
“They do NOT have a mandate to enact any policies after a yes vote that will in any way affect an independent Scotland – the people of Scotland have NEVER voted for any of their post -yes vote policies because those are RESERVED policies which the SNP do not currently have any power over.”
On Duggies planet
Democratically elected SNP = no authority
Undemocratic de facto rulers of Scotland TORIES = mandate?
maybe between 18th of september and the 1st Scottish election we should ask a fair and impartial party to take over ruling Scotland and formulate policies for us, hmm who could we ask?
THE TORIES?
Paula Rose says
“@ lumilumi – home-made darling.”
Ha ha ha ha
this is the funniest comment of the night,
I see the scene in Indiana Jones when the boy and Indiana are arguing about cheating at cards while the girl is running around screaming with a huge snake around her neck
(no offence Duggie)
I think that’s a good analogy Paula I can imagine Indiana’s leather Jacket would match your complexion (meaow)
Taranaich says
“BIG PICTURE. Christ almighty.”
What Taranaich said.
Marian says
“Reading some of the comments on this page I am reminded of what happened at the battle of The Broxburn burn when Cromwell routed a much larger Scots army.”
Wouldn’t that be The Brox burn?
Sorry the pedant told me to do it.
O/T
Just got in to work today to e-mail saying we are having an important visit today from Lord Livingston, Minister of International Trade, and Alistair Carmichael, Secretary of State for Scotland. Wonder why this is?
When will people realise that the more hysterical Westminster and it’s media allies get about hanging on to Scotland the more there must be for them to lose if we vote yes.
When do we get our extra £1400?
Where’s it coming from?
Thought UK was in debt to £1.5 Trillion, bit like the population of China that one, next time you look it up it’s £2 Trillion.
Just had a rather vile article by Gardham of The Herald appear on my timeline. The big headline is increase of 24000 new immigrants per year scare. Salmond was clear yesterday that as the figures have currently been increasing by 22k at the moment then the extra 2k would be met by retaining our young, forced to leave, returning expats and retaining the highly qualified overseas students we currently educate.
The weekday Herald says it will remain neutral in the same way that Labour pretend they are a party of the working man.
Vile.
An interesting podcast here. I wonder what Mark Blyth’s view is re. indyref?
LSE British Politicast Episode 2: Austerity Economics and Central Banking
link to blogs.lse.ac.uk
Paul says
“When will people realise that the more hysterical Westminster and it’s media allies get about hanging on to Scotland the more there must be for them to lose if we vote yes.”
In a nutshell,
every time someone says Oh we’re too wee to go it alone, I ask that question, I never seem to get an answer.
@CameronB Brodie
That page alone is worth it for this statement:
“If you look at the Scottish Executive website you can see that it doesn’t now have a highly siloed department structure like Whitehall. It currently uses the same kind of structure as the European Commission, where you have a set of more flexible ‘directorates’ with common IT and HR systems. This is a more modern and cost efficient way of running things than Whitehall’s legacy departments.”
That’s called rubbing their faces in it.
@CameronB
That’s a pretty fair assessment by Mr McAngus.
Watched both Scotland 2014 and Scotland Tonight.The use of recorded material is always open to editorial manipulation,especially when there is an audience involved.However,even editing couldn’t improve Jim Murphy’s dire performance.Interesting that only one audience member moved from undecided-and that was to Yes.Proof that hearing the facts is a winner.
The footballer and the lawyer discusion was live on the BBC and the footballer was a star, getting across many good points in a few minutes.
Sarah Smith obviously well out of touch with current revitalisation of politics at the grassroots level,room for improvement. Her sidekick,Coletta the Economics wallah, has no related qualifications, and therefore zero credilibity. Her input could have been delivered equally well by a first year Media studies student.I’m sure her jaunt to Skutland will look good on her CV. Douglas Fraser,the Economics editor, is off work for while due to medical reasons-get well.
BBC Scotland GMS had two Lib/Dums on their programme this morning talking mince for about five minutes and between the three of them, I include the GMS interviewer, they completely forgot to mention that according to a recent ICM poll, Danny Alexander would lose his seat to the SNP candidate.
Nothing to see here, move along now.
Just had a quick glance at the newspaper racks and its a horror story of attacks on Salmond and the Scottish Gov.
Nothing at all on Alexanders lies.
We should never ever give these feckers a penny. Scum!
Mark M. Blyth is from Dundee and might be worth contacting Rev., for an outsider’s perspective.
I guess someone was reading my stuff on this because in 2008 I was invited to join the Warwick Commission on International Financial Reform that made a case for macro-prudential regulation. (link to www2.warwick.ac.uk) I am also interested in finance because it’s a great example of how humans deal with complex systems? badly – and given the level of general interest in this topic you get to write short pieces for non-academics, which is fun.
link to vivo.brown.edu
Listening to Jim Murphy on the TV debate with the leader of YES Scotland yesterday it struck me once again that they are desperate to shoehorn the YES campaign into agreeing a more uncertain scenario.Take the currency question for example,they are desperate for YES to waver on keeping sterling. If YES “blinks” on this one just imagine the fear bombs.So it is Sterling whether they like it or not.Remember it is more important for rUK that Sterling has the support of an independent Scotland but up to the point of a YES vote they wish to make us less confident and fear such a result.
Scotland is not too wee,too stupid or too poor:it suits them to undermine confidence and that is despicable.Scotland is not unique and we will be every bit as successful as other nations of our size!The oil is just the iceing on the cake.Our other industries and resources are more than most
countries have.
Listening to Morning Call and that woman’s voice…oh dear she wants us all to get bored with the campaign. Only in Scotland would such pap be acceptable.
Famous 15:
The type of pap plugged by BBC Scotland isn’t unique to Scotland. You find a similar level of state propaganda in the media in Belarus, Transnistria, Abkhazia and Iran.
GMS phone-in asking if we are fed up with the referendum campaign. It doesn’t officially start until tomorrow morning.
I think BBC Scotland would like to shut the debate down right now, because the more information people get, the more they are moving to YES.
They are also asking if we are becoming more racist, according to a recent UK poll, we are. I wonder how many Scots took part in this UK poll?
@Bunter
Aye, the so called ‘editor’ (arf) of the ‘Scottish’ (arf) Daily Mail got in touch with the Rev to point out that they’d run a two page spread yesterday on the LSE’s concerns about the misuse of their research.
Didn’t stop them treating those same distortions and lies as gospel on today’s front page though.
Just heard a caller to Morning Call say that he would shoot Alex Salmond and he was not cut off. He was given the “oh you are awful” jokey response.Disgusting.
@Greannach
And don’t forget North Korea.
Tamson says:
That’s a great watch. And Jackie smiling then talking the the man next to her as she was being telt the truth showed that she knew she was full o shit and was covering her embarrassment. Go’n yirsel man fay the crowd.
madir mabbott, 11.59,
Thanks for this very interesting American opinion link.
link to reddit.com
Pretty well sums up the whole question.
Of course the US doesn’t give a toss about the UK nukes, why would they? They have more than enough to blow everyone up without them.
Keeping access through Scottish waters is far more strategically important even if nuclear-armed subs weren’t allowed in. You only need to look at ‘joint Warrior’ the twice yearly NATO-fest to see how absurb it would be to not want Scotland in,or a strong ally to, NATO.
I may have missed him dishing out some abuse somewhere, but the way Duggie has been treated here seems out of order. Is this the way fellow Yes supporters are treated on wings now if they don’t agree with the majority? What will undecideds think? I hope this stops. Learn to disagree respectfully or you will only harm our cause with the sort of condescension issued on here by certain characters in this particular post.
Incidentally, I agree with the SNP position of continuity re EU/NATO/currency etc.
Famous 15:
link to rfs.org
UK has fallen 4 places to 33 according to press freedoms, coming in immediately behind Belize, Portugal, Suriname and Lithuania. Top five in the rankings are Finland, Netherlands, Norway, Luxembourg and Andorra, same as last year.
Scotland would be lucky to reach the dizzy pinnacle of 33 place.
bunter
Aye, I thought I was in a parallel universe when I saw the Daily Heil front page today. Beaker in trouble in London and in the Highlands? LSE professor says Treasury are bonkers? Cable undermining Clegg? No, it’s “Salmond’s paperclip economics in tatters”! Certainly didn’t turn to page 6 as requested.
Although I think I’ve persuaded my wife to vote Yes she persists in getting this rag delivered “because it has good articles about health, finances, etc”. Today’s edition is very like a BBC Scotlandshire spoof.
It seems to be that it is NO supporting callers phoning into GMS who are fed up with the referendum campaign.
They don’t want anymore information being given to undecided voters.
Alec K
Thank you for that comment.
Prof dunleavy Says that the Scottish Government could employ him to do the research that would prove the truth of the costs of setting up the required departments.
As the Scottish Government would probably be accused of wasting public money and then, if reported it would be reported as biased research. However if it was crowd funded then it probably be reported and it could not be reported as being biased
@ Alec K, sometimes you have to take the rough with the smooth and if Duggie is of the opinion that he cannot take it he will go. He certainly could not have taken the rough handed out down south if you consider this abuse.
I would say that Duggie has a right to ask his questions, but for goodness sake I would have to say to anyone and I nearly said it on Subrosa yesterday that the one thing the Celts seem to excel at is fighting amongst our selves. Let us win the prize first, there is plenty of time for the arguments being raised by Duggie and by those on Subrosa. Now is not the time. The forces of the British Government has been unleashed and will continue up to the 18th of September they are the enemy not the various factions of the Independence Campaign.
One other thing, only those who have actually met know each other, you do not know me but I hope you recognise a fellow traveller, we know we get people who are trailing their coats and are variously known as concern trolls. I am not saying Duggie is.
Does anyone know what happens during the regulated period? Is it the case that privately owned papers can still spout pish and that only broadcasters have to be impartial.
Im sure the coverage will not change one iota.
@ Alex K , yes thanks for that. It really helps the debate!
How about a mass switch off of bbc scotland 1 week where no one listens to this guff Let them know that they will lose a hell of a lot of listeners
call kaye in a tiz at the moment when bbc is being accused of
baise from a guy called Vincent well done vincent!
Gon yur sel Vincent, Best I have heard for a while. He really let BBC Scotland know of how bias they are.
Brilliant Vincent.
Your deportation to Australia will be arrange before the morning is out.
Flower of Scotland
I was being sincere. If folk don’t like someone’s opinion, I think they do everyone a disservice by attacking the messenger and not the message. Saying that though
Duggie, I hope you’re genuine about not raising the issue further, unless provoked, especially on three unrelated threads. Even I have more discipline.
bunter at 9:18
Correct, the regulation only applies to the broadcast media! However, I don’t have a lot of faith in the regulatory body, Electoral Commission, being able to hand out more than a belated slap on the wrist.
As for GMS and Morning Call, they just raise my blood pressure whenever I listen to them. Hit the OFF button about 9:15 when a caller wanted to raise Prof Dunleavy’s objections to his findings being used erroniously but he was told ‘we don’t want to hear any more about that story’.
At least Dr John Robertson is still on the case, I suspect the UKBC have made a wrong enemy of him and he’ll come back to haunt them. Missed this at the time and only spotted it yesterday, ‘Academic study reveals GMS favouring NO campaign’ at link to newsnetscotland.com
I can’t believe some folks on here have spent so much time arguing on the same point with Duggie. Whilst he is entitled to his viewpoint, I think the real difficulty is that he is coming across as a concern troll, because he has now come on several different threads endlessly repeating the same premise, regarding the legitimacy of the Scottish Government democratic mandate, regardless of the topic at hand.
I’m not sure why he repeats the same point all the time, perhaps he is not aware he is being repetitive. The first time he raised his point people may have been interested, and it is an interesting discussion point, but endless posting of the same arguments, cannot help but be percieved by most as just trolling.
I enjoy alternative points of view, but even I have a limit, and can usually spot a concern troll miles off. In such circumstances it is utterly pointless debating with such a person, because their debate on their terms, is EXACTLY what they want YOU to indulge.
As the best internet advice goes, whatever the subject, don’t feed the troll. They cannot argue with themselves. Responding is what they want you to do.
GMS also had two Unionist economists in to discuss yesterday’s figures – John McLaren and David Bell. The conclusion of the presenter Bill Whiteford? It’s all so uncertain and scary! Which neatly segued into the subject of Morning Call.. are you as bored as us with this Scotch separatist kerfuffle?
Graham B,
I think that the Britnats have seriously underestimated the risk of peeing off academics who have their professional reputations to protect.
Duggie’s point is an interesting one. Although after posting basically the same complaint a few dozen times on numerous threads, mixed in with arguing aggressively with whoever contradicts him, it does get rather wearing.
Therefore, Duggie, if you are reading this, I would REALLY like to hear how this alleged lack of mandate issue can be resolved. What is your practical SOLUTION (with thought through time-scales)?
Also, here’s something to consider: I know you, Duggie, will disagree but the fact is that Scotland is, by dint of being in the Union, a de facto member of the EU, NATO, and a currency union.
My question is, does the SNP currently have the mandate to take us out of those (plus all the other treaties, obligations, conventions, etc., that you don’t mention but we are party to).
Where does one draw the line? Should we have a referendum on being a signatory to UNCLOS, or the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, or trade agreements with New Zealand, or China, and if so, what is the point of electing a government to make these decisions on our behalf?
caz-m,
I agree, it does seem to be the case that as the anti independence campaign cannot seem to win the arguments, they are now trying to heavily push the narrative, that everybody is just fed up and doesn’t want to hear about independence. How convenient.
Of course, the blatantly biased BBC are right at the front of the queue running with that narrative. I listened to the phone in this morning and at around 0920, a caller mentioned the bias of the BBC, at which the host interrupted to state that the BBC is most certainly NOT biased – an odd thing to say, when you are inviting the public to discuss the campaign.
My message to that radio host whoever she was, is if you believe the BBC is not blatantly biased after two academic studies have shown it most certainly is to a very large extent, then you really need to take your blinkers off.
The BBC, anti independence state propaganda into your home 24/7.
Who on earth phones a live, BBC, radio show, in Pacific Quay, to complain, that, they, have reached, saturation point, in Scotland’s referendum? What a bunch.
During the regulated period the newspapers will continue their bilious biased nonsence and the BBC will report it as news.
Well done Duggie you managed to hijack another thread and turn it into all about you. Complete turn off it’s so obvious you’re on here to waste everyone’s time. Sorry if that offends our regular posters but it really is grating when he will not shut up.
Duggie, I suspect, is either a very cynical yes supporter or a No man with a line in divide and rule.
Either way, the constant drip, drip, drip of concerned observer is divisive and if he truly wants a yes vote he’s got an exceptionally funny way of showing it. It is one thing to want answers to questions; it is another entirely to roll that out absolutely constantly. He is the latter.
I am particularly amused by the plan B post. Because that is the ardent cry of Better Together. Oh, regardless of where it came from from, that’s where it started. Problem is, if the Yes campaign starts playing the ‘here’s another option’ game the No campaign will simply carry on asking form more and more options. Their default setting is ‘nothing will be beyond criticism and nothing will work because you’re suggesting it.’
They’ll play that game forever if they’re allowed to.
Hows about this radical idea…..Duggie raises his arguments in threads that are actually relevant to his points or relate to an immediately current news item etc.
The fact he doesnt contribute to any other discussions is also worrying and feeds the ‘Troll’ suspicions despite his green credential claims. After all, Every one-track record gets boring after too many plays. Press the Shuffle button Dug!
I’m now sighing at the thought of me even mentioning Duggie the Distraction but arguing about the weans decision to wear driving gloves when they dont yet have a license is just a sidebar no-one needs.
@Robert Louis says:
caz-m,
I listened to the phone in this morning and at around 0920, a caller mentioned the bias of the BBC, at which the host interrupted to state that the BBC is most certainly NOT biased – an odd thing to say, when you are inviting the public to discuss the campaign.
I heard the 09:20 exchange on Morning Call too.
It was brilliant.
Host Louise was superbly pulled-up by caller Vincent, when she tried to stop him exercising his right to free speech on the air, and talk about BBC and other MSM bias.
This cheered me up no end
link to edinburghnews.scotsman.com
The person who said he would shoot Alex Salmond should be arrested. That is much worse than singing Irish rebel songs at football matches
Duggie says:
29 May, 2014 at 12:20 am
“The SNP are the government party of Scotland until the next election in 2016. Their 2011 manifesto promised an indy referendum”
Correct. As I’ve already explained, they were elected as devolved government and have no mandate to enact anything that will affect an independent Scotland. The Scottish Greens say it best:
“they must recognise that as yet they have no mandate for their policies in reserved areas. From NATO membership to the level of Corporation Tax, they should not lock Scotland in to their preferred policies, unless the Scottish people give them a mandate to do so in 2016?
“Their government white paper (Scotland’s Future), all 670 pages of it, outlines their vision for an indy Scotland.
That’s what you’ll be voting for on 18 September”
Not according to the SNP themselves, Yes Scotland, and virtually the entire yes campaign – all of whom state emphatically that a yes vote is only a vote for independence alone and is NOT a vote for the SNP, their policies, or their version of independence.
Again the Scottish Greens say it best:
“The referendum is a simple choice: should Scotland be an independent country? It will establish no mandate for specific policies Scotland might pursue”
Ah Duggie – and that is what the referendum is about – whether or not Scotland should be an independent country. But you see nowhere in the SNP manifesto do they say anything about taking us OUT of Europe, etc, etc. So by my reckoning they have a duty of care to keep us IN Europe, Nato etc as we are part of those bodies at the moment. Once the referendum has been decided THEN we can decide whether we wish to be in or out of any of those clubs.
Someone make it stop.
Please.
I’ve just read all that pish.
Fuck me, Duggie, give it a rest.
Now is not the time….people want to know certain things, far more than the people who don’t want to be in the EU and NATO, that’s why they have made the decision to continue with membership of them….we are already in them.
It’s an independence referendum not an EU one or a NATO one.
It’s not a fix all solution, it gives us the power back.
Realise it and shut the fuck up.
Peter Macbeastie says
“Either way, the constant drip, drip, drip of concerned observer is divisive and if he truly wants a yes vote he’s got an exceptionally funny way of showing it. It is one thing to want answers to questions; it is another entirely to roll that out absolutely constantly. He is the latter.”
That sounds like Norsewarrior to me.
Duggie, have you ever been to Woking? You might enjoy the chat down there.
John King
LOL – I said at the outset that Duggie had borrowed NW’s guitar and is playing the tune beautifully. One can experience the almost identical refrain from Tellen over on the Guardian – although Tellen is unequivocally Unionist.
WTF’s the matter with you lot? Whether “Duggie” is a troll or not I don’t know but he/she is for sure a self-opinionated blowhard and world class bore. What’s so hard to understand about IGNORE???
dk
Should we campaign for the resignation of Danny Alexander? The referendum is being covered internationally. Two leading professors have called the UK government liars. This is damaging to the UK’s credibility and damages all parts of the UK. Who will trade or deal with any of us when the international press cover that Danny Alexander is a liar? We must stop this damage and campaign for his resignation.
WTF’s the matter with you lot? Whether “Duggie” is a troll or not I don’t know but he/she is for sure a self-opinionated blowhard and world class bore. What’s so hard to understand about IGNORE???
+1
Look on the bright side – it is highly unlikely he will be an MP never mind a cabinet minister in government following the next election. How someone so incompetent can be in such a position of power is beyond me. Maybe it is to make the other cabinet ministers look competent?!
Brotyboy
+2
@john King
Sounds like a part of my lower anatomy this evening
Duggie
I’m a long standing member of the Scottish Greens, and both my wife and myself have served on the policy committee (at different times, I hasten to add). You are perfectly correct in your selected quotations from party documents.
However, you are missing the point.
A Yes vote in the referendum does not establish Scotland as a brand new nation state but in fact re-establishes an old one, similar to the reunification of Germany but in reverse. Germany did not reapply to the EU, or NATO, or the UN – its membership of these respective bodies was, essentially, was a procedural matter, with suitable adjustments made to its contributions, etc.
We are dissolving a union created by a legal document in 1707. We do not come into the world newborn, without assets, debts, obligations and so on. We are also party to any number of treaties including NATO and the EU. We should regard ourselves honour bound to meet those obligations until we have a government mandated to renegotiate / vary / sever those obligations. In that the SNP is correct, I believe, to proceed on the basis of a continuation of membership and other obligations until the 2016 election.
Rights and wrongs, pros and cons can be debated and decided only after the event of Scotland’s legal independence – i.e. not in the immediate post-referendum period but only following the completed legal dissolution of the union.
I too find some – only some – SNP activists irksome in certain assumptions but I don’t think that’s what’s happening here. Most, however, have been a pleasure to work with through the Yes campaign (aside for the idiots who blamed the Greens for UKIP’s MEP – I mean, sheesh, don’t they actually understand politics at all?!?)
Anyway, while you see I think you’re wrong in your assertions, I certainly don’t feel you deserve a lot of the insults here.
If you’re referring to my post, I agree it might’ve been a bit piquant on my part, but it isn’t about “agreeing with the majority,” it’s about agreeing to leave this until after we’ve secured a Yes vote. I’ll be perfectly happy to discuss the finer points of SNP policy to that of the Greens, SSP and RIC after the 18th of September, because unless we get a Yes vote, there will be no point in those discussions. The last time we let inter-party politics get in the way, it nearly cost us this referendum in the first place.
In short, we can’t afford this. We have to be on-message in regards to one thing and one thing only: that a Yes vote, any Yes vote, is preferable to anything Westminster will come up with in the event of a No vote. I personally found Duggie questioning SNP’s mandate to overstep the boundary between questioning the SNP’s policies as a party, and questioning the SNP’s mandate as an elected government. That’s a very dangerous route to go down: how would you react if a Yes vote was unrecognized by Westminster because of the exact arguments being put forward? Because I can easily see Westminster throwing as many spanners in the works in the two years between the SNP’s planned independence date and a Yes vote out of sheer, unadulterated spite.
I’d like to say that my initial comment was not directed at Duggie in any personal capacity at all, in fact it’s something that’s been building up in me for a while now. I work with a lot of people involved with the Greens, SSP and RIC, and while they’ve been really great in providing a united front in terms of a Yes vote, at times they – perfectly naturally and understandably – voice their disagreements with the SNP. To their immense credit, they’ve framed this in a positive manner, to show that Yes is not the equivalent of voting SNP so much as voting Holyrood, and that there is an alternative for non-SNP voters in the event of a Yes vote.
By all means, disagree with the SNP, but please, at least offer alternatives – how this could be done in the event of a Yes vote, not how this could interfere with it. BT don’t need more ideas.
Dr Ew and others who responded with interesting points to the issues I’ve raised – thanks.
I’d like to respond, but I appear to be under threat of a banning if I keep discussing the subject so I’ll refrain from doing so.
I apologise for going on about the topic so much, but I believe strongly in democracy and the sovereignty of the Scottish people, and believe that if there is a yes vote in September the people of Scotland should have a right to decide what kind of country we want right from the start.
I’ll try not to discuss things at length anymore.
I must say though, having read the etiquette rules of this site, I find it very odd that the administrator concentrated on warning me alone, despite the fact that numerous posters were in clear breach of the etiquette rules – in particular ‘paula rose’ last night who spent several hours attacking and abusing me for daring to express support for the policies of the party that she claims to be a member of.
But perhaps long time members are afforded more leeway, I can understand that the administrator needs to be wary of newer posters.