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Counting With James Kelly MSP

Posted on February 19, 2019 by

Alex Cole-Hamilton’s reign was the shortest on record.

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    1. 19 02 19 19:56

      Counting With James Kelly MSP | speymouth

    775 to “Counting With James Kelly MSP”

    1. Mcdenster says:

      Gotta love Wee Dim Jim?

    2. cynicalHighlander says:

      His brain cell has gone for its daily update.

    3. Simone says:

      There’s stupid and then there’s James Kelly Stupid.
      Good job his brief isn’t linked to anything maths related….

    4. Bill Hume says:

      One contest where we are spoiled for choice…….fun, isn’t it.

    5. winifred mccartney says:

      LABOURS finance spokesman that is all you need to know.

    6. JOML says:

      Don’t be too hard on the boy, he’s only the cashier for the Scottish Branch and not a real Finance Minister… and takings gathered from their members are very small, with only fingers required for the accounting.

    7. Fairliered says:

      If only I had the intelligence of James Kelly and the charisma of Alex Cole Hamilton, I would be a farce to be reckoned with!

    8. Ken500 says:

      Goodness. A journalist questions a unionist.

    9. Legerwood says:

      Ken500 says:
      19 February, 2019 at 6:06 pm
      Goodness. A journalist questions a unionist.””

      Well spotted.

    10. Bugger Le Panda says:

      James Kelly probably thinks that the Finance Minister is the one who takes the biscuit box home, nightly.

    11. Truth says:

      For fucks sake. Seriously, that is taking the piss.

      We all laugh and joke about his ability, but this confirms he is stealing an income from the taxpayer.

      He should be damned well ashamed of himself. Fucking pathetic.

    12. Capella says:

      Poor AC-H. There he was, basking in glory in the top spot when along came James Kelly. Better luck next week Alex.

      It always seems unfair to mock James Kelly who is only doing his best. The real mystery is why Richard Leonard appointed him as Finance spokesman. Yes I know he was a book-keeper. But it’s the “spokesman” bit that defeats him.

    13. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Back to normality – Ra Sellik-Minded top of the league.

      Fairliered “the intelligence of James Kelly and the charisma of Alex Cole Hamilton,” is that not a description of Wee Willie Rennie? Definitely a farce to be reckoned with.

      Bugger Le Panda Apologies for the pedantry, but, the Sellik-minded, such as the current league leader operate out of biscuit tins, rather than boxes.

      Murdo WATP Fraser and friends are on OPM (Other People’s Money).

    14. Macart says:

      Two beauts in one day.

      Messrs Cole-Hamilton and Kelly should take a bow. 😀

    15. ronnie anderson says:

      Rev ah think their wide tae your scoreboard their vining tae outdo wan n ither in record quick time lol.

    16. hackalumpoff says:

      Superb, own Goal of the the year. Surely he is now due promotion to a league of his own, what more can he do?

    17. jezza says:

      Believe it or not he is actually a Chartered accountant:

      He has a background in computing and finance, is a chartered accountant, and worked as a business analyst in East Kilbride prior to his election in 2007.

    18. ronnie anderson says:

      Mcdenster wrang wee dim Jim, Wee Dim Jims Murphy’s moniker Kelly wiznae significant enough for us tae write ah song aboot him .

    19. Bugger Le Panda says:


      He printed them himself with his John Bull printing kit.

    20. Auld Rock says:

      Give the poor lad a chance, his brain can’t cope with more than one simple problem at a time as he wonders which Labour he belongs too.

    21. sandy says:

      With reference to my post on the immediately previous item, Kelly is up there with the rest, determined not to be left behind.

      My goodness, it’s going to be a close run competition.

      Gamblers out there, what do you reckon the odds are?

    22. Republicofscotland says:

      This is why dolts like Kelly will never be taken seriously. Like his branch office of London Labour in Scotland, Kelly is reduced to carping factless nonsense from the sidelines.

      It’s really scarey to think what Scotland would look like if Labour were in government.

    23. Ken MacColl says:

      Surely James Kelly should carry a handicap in this contest? He is not doing it deliberately.
      Willie Rennie has a natural flair for the moronic intervention.If only he could see the smirking coupon of his predecessor, Tavish Scott, sitting behind him, as he poses his “killer ” questions

    24. galamcennalath says:

      There seems to be something BritNat politicians in Scotland appear to have in common …. can’t just put my finger in it … could it be …. ah, yes, they’re all intellectually challenged!

      OT An additional 7,000 sq km area of the central North Sea was reassessed and is now considered as a potential area for new exploration. Dratt… even more oil, how can we cope!?

    25. yesindyref2 says:

      @Mcdenster “Gotta love Wee Dim Jim?

      You gotta love Tom Gordon – I think he really really just doesn’t love politicians.

    26. Inverclyder says:

      No, just for a minute imagine….

      Kelly and Cole Hyphenated Hamilton managed to procreate.

      Of course you don’t need to imagine as Annie Wells seems to exist!

    27. jezza says:

      Bugger Le Panda

      Do you think he is tellin porkies Panda???

      Would anybody honestly use James Kelly as an accountant???

    28. geeo says:

      We must be overdue an annie wells’ism’..!

      A person so dim, she cannot even think of something stupid to say…!

      That is the standard of competition going on here.

    29. yesindyref2 says:

      Another from Gordon’s twitter:

      Just did that. Short money is calculated on the results of a General Election. It is given to political parties. Groups formed after the general election aren’t entitled to Short money, even if they register as a new party.

      which is exactly what I thought. I’d say it possibly (probably) also relates to Ian Blackford’s 3rd party PMQ slot.

    30. geeo says:


      Tom Gordon is an absolute scumbag. 100% unequivical about that assessment.

      He has zero redeeming features.

    31. jezza says:

      Kelly is also the standard bearer for sectarianism in Scotland.

      He fought the Scottish Government all the way to get that football Bill reversed.

    32. yesindyref2 says:

      That’s confirmed (allegedly) in Gordon’s new article:

      However the House of Commons has confirmed that short money is not available “to a new political party, if it was established in the middle of parliament”.

    33. alexicon says:

      Mis reporting Scotland giving McConnell the credit for starting the ball rolling on the Aberdeen by pass.
      Did he not give up on it once it went to court?

    34. yesindyref2 says:

      I have a different opinion. I enjoy reading his articles, even if critical.

      What he is, though, is a must-read for Indy supporters, as what he writes is far more “sensible” than anything the SiU rabble produce.

    35. Stu,

      We need a graphic and a league table – based on 3points for getting to the top and a single point for each subsequent week remaining on top. Season could be same as football to account for summer recess.

      In the SPL Celtic are not going to be caught, but in league with Cole-Hamilton, Kelly, Greene and ‘How do emails work, Findlay’ it’s a guaranteed helicopter Saturday.

    36. Donald anderson says:

      Criminalise the numpty.

    37. Alba 46 says:

      geeo @6:48

      We must be overdue an annie wells’ism’..!

      A person so dim, she cannot even think of something stupid to say…!

      Quote of the year so far.

      Absolute classic, nearly fell off my chair laughing

    38. Dr Jim says:

      Sit down Mr Kelly, sit down Mr Kelly, Mr Kelly sit down!

      Escort Mr Kelly from the chamber, Mr Kelly will be excluded from the rest of the day’s business

      Why can Mr Kelly not just be permanently excluded from everybody’s business

      He could go back to his pigeons, wear his old clothes and bunnet and be happy on his allotment, or Alex Rowley’s allotment, anywhere but Holyrood

    39. Gary45% says:

      Dumb and Dumber 3, produced in Holyrood.

    40. Socrates MacSporran says:

      The following is copied from a past thread on WoS. This quoted post was posted at 8.33pm, on 16 May, 2016; nearly three years ago.

      re James Kelly being a Chartered Accountant – he isn’t. He has a certificate from the Chartered Institute of Management Accountancy, a lesser qualification from a less prestigious body than the Institute of Chartered Accountants, which alone can award the qualification of Chartered Accountant. However, he seems quite happy to pass himself off as one – his Wiki description has specifically stated that he is a chartered accountant for years, and he has made no effort to correct it.

      All that time ago, and he STILL has not corrected his false qualification claim. As they might say in his Rutherglen fiefdom: “What a walloper.”

    41. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi jezza at 6:28 pm.

      You typed,

      “He has a background in computing and finance, is a chartered accountant, and worked as a business analyst in East Kilbride prior to his election in 2007.

      Nah, I think I prefer the definitive biography of Mr Kelly, that can be found here:-

    42. ScottieDog says:

      “However the House of Commons has confirmed that short money is not available “to a new political party, if it was established in the middle of parliament”. “

      Maybe they sniff out a general election in the hope of gaining 3rd party and toppling Corbyn as labour leader…

    43. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Thats the opposition! Why are we not yet independent?

      Who actually votes for these clowns?

    44. dakk says:

      All these unionist doup lickers are so desperate to inflict harm on Scotland’s good governance for their british masters that they don’t even pause to consider their own inanity.

      The appalling calibre of unionist politicians tells you all you need to know about unionism and the union.

    45. Petra says:

      Don’t you think that it’s a real worry that the BritNat politicians at Holyrood seem to be seriously inept and totally devoid of moral values? What’s going to happen when we become Independent? Some SNP MPs returning from London may stand for election and some in the SNP party right now may leave to form another party, such as a Labour type, join the Greens, stand as Independents and so on. The SNP may also change its name, of course. What I’d really like to know is this. Has anyone on here identified any half decent, intelligent Scottish Tory, Labour or Libdem politicians? I can only think of one …. Andy Wightman. Serious question: Can anyone think of any others?

    46. chicmac says:

      Since James Kelly’s wife is called Alexa, I pondered on the kind of funny situations that might cause in his household, assuming he has the computer nous to install Alexa that is.

      I asked our Alexa ‘Who is James Kelly’ she replied a former Australian rules footballer… ouch.

    47. @Socrates MacSporran,

      seems to be a thing with the British Labour infesting Scotland,

      here is Paul Sweeney
      Verified account twitter


      replying to @DunoonSNP
      `I have a first class honours degree in Economics from Glasgow University, but thanks for the advice…`

      he actually has a degree in Economic History,

      a bit like saying you are a journalist when all you are is a dollar a word hack for some Scottish rag.

    48. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Fairliered @ 18:05,

      Oh my, that one wins Dorothy Parker Award of the week, I reckon. =grin=

      On the other hand. Nicola is proving as sharp as a tack. In this uneasy quiet before the storm, what is she doing but using her time productively by visiting people of influence and garnering credit for Scotland. No wonder the dog-in-manger BritNats don’t like it.

      Oh dear, what a pity for the party-pooper party.

    49. jezza says:

      Briandoonthetoon 8.01pm

      Your version of Kelly’s past seems closer to the truth.

    50. Morgatron says:


    51. defo says:

      Does anyone know what Labours problem with the humble vest actually is?

    52. Morgatron says:

      He’s a total windy licker

    53. jezza says:

      He’s another one of these Irish Republican BritNats.

      A strange combination of Irish Freedom Fighter mixed with Scottish Unionist.

    54. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      me @ 20:55,

      Oh, and I forgot to add (if it hasn’t been mentioned already and I’ve somehow missed it), “Nicole” – as the announcer pronounced it – was on France 24 news in person this evening. A full interview will be screened this coming Saturday. Those not paying the BBC Tax will presumably be able to view it on their website.

    55. Tackety Beets says:

      Chicmac @ 8.41

      If I ever meet James Kelly

      “Gidaay, what’s your favourite colour Blue” It would go over his head for sure.

    56. Capella says:

      @ jezza upthread – to say he is a Chartered Accountant with a background in computing and finance probably just means he uses spreadsheets.

      Labour have a proud tradition in asking silly questions. Who can forget Ian Grey’s immortal “Where is the money for an oil fund coming from?” sadly removed from Youtube.

      But there is still his Bak to Skool contribution:

    57. jockmcx says:

      Thanks to Jack Murphy 2.40pm
      for providing a youtube link to that IndyCar Gordon Ross vid
      i was having trouble viewing via Nana’s facebook link last
      It’s here if anyone want’s…

      Nana also provided an alternative facebook link to the vid
      last night which worked perfectly…
      Thanks to all.

    58. Lenny Hartley says:

      Scott Finlayson a dollar a word hack, I wish , magazine i do work for only pays 9 pence per word.

    59. Tackety Beets says:

      Petra, Ref other decent MPs or MSPs

      John Finnie GG (Good Guy)
      We would need to Keep Willie Rennie , he is so impotent but always guarantees a laugh. He just keeps his stupid grin when Holyrood is laughing at him.

      Naw can’t think of any others. FFS!

    60. SilverDarling says:

      Does he do his own taxes? Eek!

    61. jezza says:

      How do you become a Labour MSP???

      You must have no more than three brain cells and pair of Union Jack pants.

      Then get an electorate with similar qualifications to vote you in.

    62. Robert Peffers says:

      @ Jezza says: 19 February, 2019 at 6:28 pm:

      ” … Believe it or not he is actually a Chartered accountant:”

      I’m not so sure about that, Jezza. He claims to be a Chartered Accountant – has anyone checked that he is?

      Just found this wee snippet on Google:-

      ” … If you need to confirm someone is a CA, you can search for them by name on our Find a CA service. All members listed in this directory are current members of ICAS, and entitled to call themselves Chartered Accountants”.

      The page showed these initials as blue underlined links but the page went off on its own as I was about to copy the links.

    63. @Lenny Hartley,

      just looked it up, $50 for 500 words is the average for a freelance,

      and i though all you journalists were millionaires.

    64. jezza says:

      Get Jackie Burd to ask him on tomorrows reporting Scotland.

      James Kelly, are you really a Chartered Accountant???

      Course a um Jackie!!!

    65. Bobby Klaus says:

      A CIMA accountant is a management accountant. A CA is a public practice accountant. Although the roles can be interchangeable. But the qualifications are of similar status.

      The CIMA website only lets your search for those who are acting in public practice.

    66. Robert Peffers says:

      @Socrates MacSporran says: 19 February, 2019 at 8:01 pm:

      ” … re James Kelly being a Chartered Accountant – he isn’t. He has a certificate from the Chartered Institute of Management Accountancy, a lesser qualification from a less prestigious body than the Institute of Chartered Accountants, which alone can award the qualification of Chartered Accountant.”

      Yes, Socrates. That is why I replied to Jezza. The links I was attempting to copy when the page vanished was because the Chartered Accountants take a dim view of imposters. I believe the take legal action. However I’m having keyboard problems on my machine just now and typing anything is a problem.

    67. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Robert Peffers

      Further to my post above, and your subsequent post. I managed to get into the ICAS (Institute of Chartered Accountants, Scotland) website and was able to use their “Find a CA” app. I tried James Kelly in Glasgow, Rutherglen, Cambuslang and Edinburgh – and nobody came up.

      I am therefore pretty certain, oor Jimmy isnae a Chartered Accountant, as he claims to be.

    68. Lenny Hartley says:

      Scott Finlayson, dont tar me with that brush please 🙂 im a photographer who has to caption my photos with a wee story !! Although the magazine I do most of my work for is trying to put the emphasis on words as they are a lot cheaper than photos so their about to get the bums rush 🙂

    69. Legerwood says:

      Petra @ 8:29 pm
      “”Don’t you think that it’s a real worry that the BritNat politicians at Holyrood seem to be seriously inept and totally devoid of moral values?””

      A serious point. During the first indyref this was raised several times in the Letters page of the Herald. People questioned whether were enough talented people to form Governments in an independent Scotland. The quality, or more accurately, the lack of quality in the unionist parties in particular made them question whether Scotland should or could be independent.

      The ineptitude of the opposition politicians may give us hours of amusement but…it does present a barrier for some people on their journey to supporting independence.

      Unfortunately we can’t turn these pigs’ ears into silk purses.

    70. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Breaking now….another Labour MP resigns from the party

    71. call me dave says:

      New:BBC Reports.

      Joan Ryan becomes eighth Labour MP to quit the party for Independent Group, citing “culture of anti-Jewish racism”

    72. ScottieDog says:

      Another labour resignation. Not a labour fan but some of the accusations – FFS.
      And of course the new party won’t declare donor.

    73. ScottieDog says:

      Looks like a plot to destroy the labour left.
      Wheres that neoliberal twat milliband? He’ll be along shortly.
      Not the goofy one.

    74. Terencecallachan says:

      Jason smoothpiece ..8.09

      People in Scotland don’t vote for the Labour or Tory or Lib Dem MP,s they vote for the cause, they would vote for a monkey if it were contesting elections for the British nationalist cause let’s face it nearly all of those representing labour Tory and Lib Dem in Scotland are incompetents

    75. Dr Jim says:

      Madame Ecosse will return on Thursday for FMQs

    76. call me dave says:


      Caley Thistle win on penalties: Good game. 🙂

    77. jfngw says:

      I’m sure ACH will want his slot back, I believe he thinks the AWPR is not finished because the landscaping is not complete. I made that up, thought I should say so as it would be too easy to believe with this MSP.

    78. Robert Peffers says:

      @Legerwood says: 19 February, 2019 at 10:20 pm:

      ” … A serious point. During the first indyref this was raised several times in the Letters page of the Herald. People questioned whether were enough talented people to form Governments in an independent Scotland. The quality, or more accurately, the lack of quality in the unionist parties in particular made them question whether Scotland should or could be independent.”

      It will not be a worry, Legerwood, for no party that is currently a unionist Westminster party can stand for a Scottish independent parliament. They will have to be registered as a Scottish party and none of the current lot are. There are, all three, United Kingdom parties.

      No doubt there will be a Scottish Labour Party and a Scottish Tory Party and even a Scottish LibDem party. They will not, though, be in any way, incorporated it a foreign countries political party as they are just now.
      The ineptitude of the opposition politicians may give us hours of amusement but…it does present a barrier for some people on their journey to supporting independence.
      Unfortunately we can’t turn these pigs’ ears into silk purses.

    79. jfngw says:

      I think BBC Brian Taylor must be in with a shout, he seems to think that 61 votes for the tax changes against 52 against only passed because the 6 Greens abstained. Maybe he consulted with James Kelly when preparing his report.

      Either that or he thinks the public are too stupid to do a bit of arithmetic.

    80. Petra says:

      @ Tackety Beets at 9:17pm ….. “John Finnie – Good guy.”

      So that’s it we’ve now got two on our list, lol. Both Green Party politicians. Pretty poor show, eh?


      Derek Hatton returns to the fold.

    81. cctxt

      re your O/T post…. I find myself almost considering this as a solution but inevitably come back to:

      Never trust a Tory

      Unfortunately T May has been so duplicitous to date that she is totally untrustworthy, remember she leads a government that has been found in Contempt of Parliament.

      I think the sensible thing is actually mentioned, and mentioned as a simple Act – revoke Article 50.

    82. cctxt

      also – doesn’t the implementation of the backstop breach the terms of the Treaty /Acts of Union about one port being able to trade freely with another throughout the British Isles with no impediment.

    83. jfngw

      I read that Brian Taylor report and found it quite mystifying in terms of trying to understand exactly what happened this afternoon.

      Bit too smug for me.

    84. yesindyref2 says:

      Well, during Indy Ref 1 I knew a guy, a fierce Nationalist all his life who had his doubts because of the quality of the politicians. People like Alex Salmond, fine, but few others. My answer was that they’d have to grow into the roles, and that without Westminster being the “big Parliament” and Holyrood the “Parish council” (my words not his), politicians or prosepective ones would have to choose Holyrood.

      He and his kids did vote YES, I think it’s more to do with the way Westminster and BT carried on, than my words!

    85. yesindyref2 says:

      Oh yeah, missed the important thing as always. He was going to vote NO because of that lack of policitians, and “Scotland’s not ready”. He changed his mind.

    86. Call me dave

      Lots of squirrels running about in WM just now.

      Apparently another MP made the mistake of thinking out loud this afternoon that the rebels are being backed financially, shall we say, by people who are not subsidising the Palestinians.( trying to make sure the Rev’s feed stays squeaky clean on this subject)

    87. Scottie Dog

      if you sniff a GE you stay in your party and change it from the inside. A 3rd party will only split the vote and make it easier for the Tories to win UNLESS our Nigel gets his act together and resurrects UKIP which would split the Tory vote.

      The only way the new rebels stand a chance is if they become a cross-party group of rebels – a new centrist party – but isn’t that taking the wind out of the sails of J.K Rowling and Blair – unless….. he plans to ride to the rescue.

      If they want to topple Corbyn they stand a better chance doing that from inside the party.

    88. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Meg merrilees @ 22:47.

      I have thought the exact same thing, Meg.

      Article IV of the 1707 Treaty of Union.

      I’ve been seriously thinking of sending a petition to the EU Parliament, asking MEPs not to ratify May’s backstop deal (as they must do) on the grounds that Art.50 requires the withdrawal be in accordance with the constitution of the leaving country, and that agreement would potentially be in breach.

      And the 1707 Treaty of Union is the foundation document of the constitution.

      (Oddly enough, that appeal would also presumably have the support of the hardline Leavers and the DUP. It would certainly force the issue – no-deal or split. A raw binary choice.)

    89. geeo says:


      Glad you liked it.

      There will be better around the corner soon i expect !

    90. Liz g says:

      cctx @ 10.32
      Typical… It still doesn’t solve the problem if Scotland and N. Ireland are out voted by England …Again.
      It also risks (potentially) Wales Scotland and N. Ireland being out voted by England..
      So as I said Typical .. An English solution for the problem but by no stretch of the imagination a UK one,and at this point in time I don’t think they dare!
      Which, I think, is a major reason for not having a people’s vote in general.. they (Westminster) didn’t expect such a disparity in the 2016 vote, and won’t risk it happening again, again, only more pronounced!!

    91. geeo says:

      Oops…forgot about the filter. MR 46 from now on.

    92. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 22:48,

      It’s the old colonial liberation argument recycled.

      But rank incompetence of London “management” =cough= is going to be the big issue of IR2, the one that will win over most converts, I think. Just like your acquaintance before.

      We will have something more than just kumbaya next time round.

    93. Calum McKay says:

      Kelly never fails to make an arse of himself when he opens his mouth. To his credit he does so at the most important times in front of everyone. An utter star!

    94. Famous15 says:

      The thought that inept and down right dumb opposition politicians is a reason for not supporting Independence is on par with absurd argument that since Brexit is chaotic so would Independence be chaotic even though different people and parties are responsible.


      There is more strength and depth in the SNP alone never mind the wall flowers in the opposition parties who remain silent out of embarrassment.

    95. geeo says:

      @meg merrilees

      Chances on The War Criminal being invited to be new leader of the 8 (or whatever number it is in future) ?

    96. yesindyref2 says:

      It’s nearly spring and planting seeds is always a good idea.

      Could be interesting just asking people a simple question “Which do you think is more competent, Westminster or Holyrood?”

      Could load the question with “Westminster with its Brexit shambles or Holyrood” but that’s up to the individual!

    97. Dr Jim says:

      All over the internet tonight Yoons be angry, not because they’re losing, because they’ve lost

    98. Dr Jim says:

      Politicians make policy but civil servants do the actual running and operational stuff so there is no comparison to make as to the running of stuff, only the calibre of the policy makers and so far Scotlands policies are working and we’re better served by our services than in the south

    99. Clootie says:

      He could play the parts of dumb and dumber. James will think that’s three roles.

    100. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 23:13,

      The way that question should be put, IMO, is to employ some judicious re-framing:

      “If Scotland at the moment were exactly the same as Ireland [hint, hint], an independent country and full member of the EU, would you be wanting to leave and join with England as its junior partner?”

      I can’t imagine that many of the switherers would be replying “yes”, can you?

    101. Inverclyder says:

      With them (up to this point in time) having 8 members of this new TIG – Tony Is Great party what are they going to call themselves?

      Since there’s 8 iy’s got to be the Kelly Dozen!

    102. Dr Jim says:

      Scotland is no more important than the Borough of Lambeth says Stephen Daisley

      I guess we’ll know the answer to that quite soon eh

    103. Inverclyder says:

      With them (up to this point in time) having 8 members of this new TIG – Tony Is Great party what are they going to call themselves?

      Since there’s 8 it’s got to be the Kelly Dozen!

    104. Cubby says:

      Loving the ” counting with” series. With all the Britnat diddys in Scotland this series could run for a very long time.

    105. yesindyref2 says:

      It’s a good question but more pushy. I tended in Indy Ref 1 always just to ask straight questions, you can see a wee opening maybe afterwards then and put in something a bit more.

      For me it needs campaigners and openers, much more of the former, but more than there were of the second. I’m the second, do my stuff, then others can move in after me 🙂

      The other thing is sometimes you see campaigners talking and the person or persons afterwards shaking their heads. That’s the time to drift over and ask a slightly opposite loaded question like “What did you thnk of that?”. “Rubbish”. “Well, a lot of people are very enthusiastic and can be a bit pushy, it’s just because they believe so much in what they say I guess”. Can re-open minds.

      Ah well, won’t be long now.

    106. Legerwood says:

      ScottieDog says:
      19 February, 2019 at 10:22 pm
      “”Looks like a plot to destroy the labour left.
      Wheres that neoliberal twat milliband? He’ll be along shortly.
      Not the goofy one.””

      Thought they were both a bit goofy. Is there not a picture of David Milliband holding a banana and managing to make the banana look like the intelligent one.

      Neither brother seems to have happy photo ops with food.

    107. Petra says:

      @ Legerwood at 10:20pm ….. “You can’t turn pigs ears into silk purses.”

      That’s for sure Legerwood. It does make you wonder mind you how many people have been / are being put off of Independence not so much by the SNP but by people like James Kelly. You don’t have to be a political anorak to question if he’s the full shilling or not. You just have to be an ordinary Joe Soap unfortunate enough to see / hear him in the passing for a few minutes on the television.


      @ Robert (P) at 10:33pm …. “Three UK parties out on their bahookies come Independence.”

      Yes they’ll be defunct Robert, but the essence of the question is who exactly will fill their shoes? Will they reregister as Scottish parties with the same numpties standing for re-election? If so and they manage to get through we’ll be left with the same old lying, lazy ignoramuses. If they disappear into the blue is there anyone else worth their salt out there suitable enough to form another Labour, Tory and Libdem party? Many of these politicians were formerly Councillors, as an example, and the current crop of Councillors come across as being the dregs of humanity too, such as the OO cabal.

    108. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Why, oh why, are so many on here apparently desperately bothered that Labour is finally fissuring due to its own suppressed contradictions? Methinks some people protesteth too much.

      On the contrary, let’s have more of it, I say.

      We have tried to engage them and encourage more positive thinking, and all they have done is collaborated with the Tories against us in their Doom War. So let them reap what they have sown, and let us cheer their confusion to the rafters. We need them out of the way.

      And may the contagion spread to the FibDems and the Blue Tories as well. They all have it coming.

    109. Hamish100 says:

      If the UK post brexit is so attractive to other coubtries ans industries why are they leaving? PM, how many new companies are aetting up? Oops none.

    110. Liz g says:

      Robert J Sutherland @ 11.34
      I think,and I only think!!
      It’s because Labour are still a threat to Indy.
      There are many “so called” natural Labour voter’s in the Yes movement…. Even now,after everything… They still want the Labour party to be what it promised to be at the start.
      There’s the long term identification with it’s “stated” values and the Loyalty…. Ahh the fucking Loyalty!!
      That wan wee word…
      It’s been portrayed as a good thing from time immemorial..
      But it’s not …it’s really not,it gets people killed and enslaved people to an elite.
      Loyalty is a shit thing to have and stupid thing to cleave to and the sooner people realise it the better.
      But there it is!!

    111. Petra says:

      @ Meg and RJS …… “Breach of the Treaty of Union.”

      Isn’t it possible that Nicola Sturgeon (et al) is also waiting to see what they do and then make her move on that? Remember Mundell and Davidson threatened to resign, as we thought (some of us on here), due to this very issue?

    112. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Liz g @ 23:49,

      But that’s exactly my point, Liz. The more Labour fracture, the more that residual supporter loyalty is likely to break down. (As you indeed seem to appreciate.)

      And yet I seem to sense some kind of undercurrent of disapproval of the split.

      Or am I just imagining it…?

    113. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Petra @ 23:51,

      Yes it is. I truly hope so, anyway.

      Breeks will be so pleased! =laugh=

      Meanwhile, Nicola has been assidously making friends with those who matter…

    114. Petra says:

      Isn’t this Westminster fiasco right up our street, lol? The MSM have been doing their utmost to suppress information, in particular from the Scots. People who aren’t politically minded don’t have a clue about MANY of the issues that we are aware of on here, but the in your face T May performance, companies leaving / shutting down and the latest implosion of the Labour Party must have them all really thinking now. And there will no doubt be worse to come before the end of this month alone. Tickety, tockety.

    115. CameronB Brodie says:

      ‘Scotland is no more important than the Borough of Lambeth’

      And there you have an examplet of British/English nationalism’s inherent cultural chauvinism, an inability to value Others as being both different and equal.

    116. Liz g says:

      Petra @ 11.32
      ‘re Robert Peffers @ 10.33
      I suspect that, for a time,the current Unionist Parties will stay in place and be the conduit for the “Reunification/Confirmation Vote” campaign that will surely follow the Yes vote.
      This is why I think we need to stay on the ball after the Yes vote…
      My solution would be… To sell our Constitution to Scotland..
      And as a part of that sale,I’d propose.

      That Holyrood can sign Scotland up to any International TREATY it thinks is advantageous to Scotland.
      But EACH and EVERY TREATY is subject to a 25/30 year Sunset Clause ..NO exceptions..

      Every 25yrs the Treaty MUST be put to the people’s of Scotland for ratification.. The TREATY is automatically and immediately Dissolved if Holyrood fail to do so for ANY reason..
      This way no Scot born into any union/treaty agreements would be stuck with it… after a few years as a voter… They will have the Constitutional right to reject it

      This would be reasonable to the international community because we (Scotland) have form with trying to get away from old Treaties the Ancestors signed us up to.
      But what it also does is.

      Make sure that no group of Politicians in Holyrood can ever again sign Scotland up to a Treaty for 300 odd year’s!
      We can’t bind future generations of Scots,but we can give them the means,as best we can to protect their Sovereignty!

      Holyrood can then sign up to things like the EU and NATO in the full knowledge that Scottish Sovereignty is protected at the point of signing.

      This constitutional protection of Scotland’s Sovereignty going forward would,also make any reunification campaign pointless as it couldn’t last any more than 25/30 year’s ever!!

    117. Liz g says:

      Robert J Sutherland @ 11.57
      If you sensed that undercurrent of disapproval coming from me then you are right..
      But for the avoidance of doubt!
      My issue ( other than the obvious anti Indy stuff) is not with Labour.
      My issue here is only with the concept of Loyalty.
      It,for me,is like religion… Only for the benefit of the rulers…and,for the purposes of the Independence discussion.
      Loyalty has no place in politics…

    118. TJenny says:

      yesindyref2 – my, that was a grand speech from oor Nicola. Wonder if she got a standing ovation?

    119. Artyhetty says:

      Thing is these people are paid highly to shaft Scotland. They take their orders from their masters in London, the English based UK Labour and Tory parties.

      Re; Legerwood and Petra@10.20pm

      While these Britnat MSP’s are not what we should expect in terms of capability in such highly paid jobs in government, their apparent ignorance and stupidity is also deliberate.

      It is an attempt to bring down the validity of the devolved parliament, as well as gas lighting the SNP, and in fact the population of Scotland. It’s orchestrated and sinister.

      Re; Robert peffers@10.33pm

      So as you say, the apparent ineptitude we are seeing from the Britnats at Holyrood, poses a problem in some minds about whether Scotland can manage to be independent. They however would be out of a job on independence day.

      Scotland will do very well without these sort of jobsworths, there are plenty of intelligent and sincere people who will be very capable of doing the job of running our country, whether in power or whether in opposition.

    120. North chiel says:

      “ Liza @1230” , I like your proposals to protect Scottish sovereignty, and to prevent “our politicians signing Scotland up to 300 odd year treaties “

    121. Petra says:

      @Liz at 12:30am …… “Constitutional protection.”

      Spot on Liz. We’ve been lumped with this garbage for over 300 years now. Garbage that the population didn’t even vote for until 2014 when we lost due to corruption and lies, IMO. Akin to Brexit. Over time we’ve seen things change, move with the times, such as votes for women (and men), but little has changed for us as a country. And on the subject of our future written Constitution I read somewhere that Dr Mark McNaught will be questioned about his work at Holyrood next week … 23rd.


      Great speech from Nicola outlined in the National. Doing a fantastic job of talking up Scotland of course. I thought I’d have a look to see what the BBC had to say about her visit and speech. Very little as per usual other than a focus on immigration. Stirring it up? This article is only one of two open for comments. The other is fairly insignificant. Check it out. Over 1000 comments with many being an absolute disgrace … in the main racist. And the BBC continue to have the bl**dy brass neck to say that they are honest, impartial etc.

      One thing I did notice however was that Glen Campbell stated that there has been around 400 engagements with the EU etc since 2016. Nicola doing the day job …. PLUS. Engagements that the BBC don’t seem to have covered.

    122. Liz g says:

      Artyhetty @ 1.04
      RE. Ledgerwood & Petra
      I’m with you on that,I’ve long thought the term useful idiots was particularly apt for the dross that the Unionist parties continually put forward in Holyrood.
      There’s far too many of them to be accidental,or happenstance,it has to be deliberate!

    123. Dr Jim says:

      There are things Nicola Sturgeon can’t say until she can say them, if that makes sense
      Every time I hear her deliver one of these speeches I hear what she’s NOT saying and it must be the most frustrating thing ever for her not to be able to announce she has a plan to sort Scotlands position out

      I guess she says a lot in private though, to the right people

    124. Liz g says:

      Petra @ 1.24
      Thanks for that I’ll certainly look in on it to see what he’s sayin… I understand he has done a lot of work on it…
      But here the rub…
      We(the people) need a platform,I don’t yet know who and I don’t know how.. But we cannot leave our Constitution to “Civic Scotland” because,to coin and mutilate a phrase..
      It will be of them.
      By them.
      And for them…
      … So We need an “US”..

      North Chiel @ 1.18
      Thank you… And can I ask,if, you are ever in a position to promote our Constitution forbidding our Politicians in Holyrood from signing Scotland up to Treaties that have no Sunset Clause that you do so…

      IMHO it just makes sense,we’d never, ever, have the need for a Farage and his poison..
      We can relax in the knowledge that our Constitution can get us out of any Union that no longer works for Scotland!

    125. twathater says:

      RJS 11/54pm hear , hear ,the more these britnat unionist dumbos expose themselves even jockland news will have difficulty defending them ( or maybe not ) I have no sympathy or empathy for any of them they have used and abused Scotland and its people for too long , I for one will CELEBRATE when their troughing comes to an end

    126. twathater says:

      Lizg re the constitution Gordon Ross indycar has been actively speaking about a new constitution being put together by Dr Mark McNaught and being looked at by Mjke Russel next week , they are also speaking about a new blockchain voting system being put forward by an Australian company Horizon something .

      I strongly agree that there should be citizen representation on these things and according to Gordon Ross that is the reason for blockchain to enable people to have a say , apparently the draft constitution was put up on faceboak for comments but not being a member I didn’t see it though I would have liked to

    127. Liz g says:

      twathater @ 2.42
      Thanks for the info…
      Oh well if its that indy car guy’s version of a Constitution that this Dr Mc Naught is promoting… Can t say that I’m all that impressed.
      It sounds to me like a wish list!
      We need a serious document that lets a government govern..
      That version tries to cover “everything”, and badly. .
      While it sounds good in principle,in practice… Not so much.
      EG.. Everyone has the Constitutional right to a home.
      Till Scotland votes in a shit Government (we’re bound to).
      So .. To meet the “requirements” of the Constitution this shit Government doesn’t -feel- the need to build new houses,but rather it decides to redistribute the population.
      Can you see the problem?
      Well, we might all see it,but if the (shitty) government can demonstrate to the Court’s that this is indeed in accordance with the Scottish Constitution… Then… There’s not a bloody thing we can do about it.

      We have to be very careful of the unintended consequences of putting requirements into our Constitution…and as far as I can see the one that the indy car guy promotes just doesn’t!
      We need a document that binds the Government only where it has to,but is very clear on those bounds!

    128. Cactus says:

      J.K. Howling wae laughter hahaha, whit a puddin’.

      Mornin’ geeo, did you call out a groovy round and down on the corner tune earlier on there… don’t mind if aye do bro: 🙂
      (23,234,335 present personal viewings)

      Dedication furra leg up:

      Believe in iAye.

    129. Cactus says:

      A Lovely marnin’ to ye Liz, ain’t it SO exciting!!!

      Indy is just around the corner.

      Fucking Yes! X

    130. Liz g says:

      Further to me @ 3.16
      And in no way aimed at twathater..
      Imagine that Scotland wrote it’s Constitution in the late 40s.
      At that point in time it would have been reasonable to say that.. Every house in Scotland is entitled to 1 bag of coal a week….
      From that day till this,like it or not,regardless of cost or logistics… Lest they be sued, right here right now you are getting a bag of coal every week!!!

      How stupid would that be.. So, ergo,we can’t put thing’s like that in Scotland’s Constitution

    131. Liz g says:

      Mornin Cactus
      Its too tru
      Fuck me!!!
      I can’t wait to get campaigning 🙂

    132. Cactus says:

      Exactly, a new bagful of Yes energy every week and more Liz mwah!

      In Scotland’s New Constitution aye would like to propose FREE upper-body massage booths throughout our cities and towns…

      Just like the set up they have in them nail and scary eyebrow bars, at a ratio based on outlet density, like for like compare with Greggs on the corner of Freedom Square ’19.

      And if ye need further lower body massage, you can go downstairs… but there’s an additional charge. 😉


    133. North chiel says:

      “Liz g @ 0144”, I suppose your proposition could be construed as “ our people’s sovereignty backstop” ??

    134. Liz g says:

      North chiel @ 3.42
      I suppose ye could… But I’d like a phrase much more grand and pompous for it!
      Because it would be symbolic of Scotland being unable to be conned again … Even so, as long as it’s in the Constitution,I’ll leave it to better minds than mine to call it what they will 🙂
      Cactus @ 3.42
      Whit can ah say Cactus…
      While we’ve aw been slumming it…
      Our Constitution his tae be better than that…
      The Westend basements at least….??

    135. twathater says:

      I agree with what you are saying Lizg , unfortunately as I said I haven’t seen the draft ,but I would look forward to a block chain that would enable folks to have an input , also as you said the constitution should not be influenced by the establishment we have had over 300 years of that pish . Also any and ALL public utilities must be enshrined in law in perpetuity to remain in public ownership eg water , power , energy , SNHS and others

    136. Cactus says:

      Here’s what could happen doonstairs in the dung…:

      “Fly fishing” by J.K. Fartley

    137. Cactus says:

      THIS is excellent!

      Scotland NOW has…

      1) 24/7 Wings Over Scotland 2019
      2) 24/7 Indy Live Radio 2019
      3) 24/7 2019

      Something amazing is about to happen 2019.

      Something beautiful.

      Something bonnie.



    138. Cactus says:

      From one previous master back to the future:

      Compare and contrastus.

      LOVE it!

    139. Cactus says:

      Maybe it must be a February kinda fing, TuneIN next year to see if J.K. Fouling scores ee’s hat trick in 2020 (The Year 2020 written looks SO futuristic btw.)

      That is, if he and the rest of em are still there.

      Labour could be gone.

    140. Cactus says:

      Good Morning Excellent Indy Live Radio ~

      Aye hereby claim listener X of 100 right NOW!

      Whom will claim 2,3,4… of the Indy Live Radio one hundred?

      Gauntlet doon, Lemmy see ye.

    141. Cactus says:

      Here Liz, we were at the Kings Theatre last night a seeing “My Fair Lady” by PMOS, that’s the (Paisley Musical and Operatic Society)

      Fucking excellent solos / harmonies like, loadsa white-tops and a constant cool ‘stage mist’ a blowin’ over tae port frae starboard. Excellently cast Lovelies mwah x.

      Fucking excellent Scotland 2019.

    142. Cactus says:


      “It’s almost half past noon timesckives Olive”:

      It’s good to laugh! 🙂 😉 🙂 😉 😉

    143. yesindyref2 says:

      When I was working in Germany and learning German, I made the mistake to start with of using an Americanised English to German dictionary (Langenscheidts I think) and got some strange looks, whereas using Collins (Glasgow mostly), people nodded their heads and understood me. Two peoples separated by a common language being only noticeably different when translated into another language.

      Wouldn’t it be funny if Sturgeon had put her speech together so that using the French version of Langenscheidts to translate into French it gave a different meaning, which we could see using Collins to translate back?

      So for instance something like

      “We would like to see Scotland remain in the EU and be free of Brexit” translated back to:

      “Brexit? Long Live the Revolution!”

    144. yesindyref2 says:

      (visions of GCHQ computers working flat out using different translating algorithms, let’s try into French then German and back to Englsih. Italian to Dutch to French to English. Try Polish, anyone got a Scots to Gaelic? …)

      I’m off to my pit.

    145. Corrado Mella says:

      As sad as it might be, Mr Kelly is one of many dimwits living amongst us.

      They have serious issues, including a very, very low IQ.

      And they have a vote.


    146. Nana says:

      Once you’ve watched that , watch Mr Russell compare Tomkins to a character from the new @Stan_And_Ollie movie… “Like in those slap-stick movies, Mr Tomkins runs straight into a wall..” to much laughter in the chamber.

      Joanna says
      Today I demanded to know why, when the Solicitor General refuses to give a “running commentary” to MPs on the #backstop discussions with #EU, the Attorney General is happy to give a speech about it outside

    147. Nana says:

      Dr Philippa says
      Today I asked the UK Health Secretary whether Pharmacists will be expected to take legal responsibility for giving a different drug to patients under the Serious Shortages Protocol. Currently, the responsibility lies with the GP yet, under the SSP, Pharmacists could be allowed to change a prescription without consultating the GP.


    148. Nana says:

      Brexit causing ‘palpable decline’ in UK influence at the UN

      Forced into illegality
      This should have been Ella’s year. 2019 was going to be when the 24-year-old finally got her life back on track. She’d stop being ‘undocumented’ and living in dread of immigration enforcement.

      White helmet fakery

    149. Nana says:

      Joan Ryan chair of pro-apartheid lobby group Labour Friends of Israel, has quit the Labour Party, citing a culture of “antisemitism and hatred of Israel”. Here she is discussing a £1,000,000 bribe with Shai Masod, an employee of the Israeli embassy.

      This secretly filmed video, from the forthcoming Al Jazeera Investigations series “The Lobby,” shows Shai Masot, an officer at the Israeli embassy in London, discussing plans to “take down” members of the British parliament, including a government minister.

      UK on course for ‘record level of child poverty’

      Met police spending on plastic bullets triples in a year

    150. jezza says:


      Do Twitter videos only work if you are signed up to Twitter???

      Because when I go into one of your Titter links all I see is a picture,,,no video.


    151. Nana says:


      I have checked on both my computers and all twitter and facebook videos are working fine.

      On some twitter videos you do have to click in order for the video to actually begin, others start right away.

      I don’t know why you are unable to view. You do not have to sign up to twitter.

    152. Macart says:


      Mike Russell didn’t miss and the wall in either vid.

      The Tories dropped everyone into this mincer and NO amount of whitewashing or misdirection can ever alter that FACT. TBF, Labour haven’t helped much and the LIbdems paved the way for the Tories some time ago.

      How and ever, when people wonder how they’re going to pay their bills, keep a roof over their head or even eat? It was Conservative idiocy, their ignorance, their arrogance and their greed that placed them in such a position. THIS is what happens when you give away your right to hold a government of your choice to account and hand it to another who will vote in a government of their choice.

      Just to be crystal clear? Better Togetherness was a slogan for these people. It was a serving suggestion and self evidently not a statement of fact or intent.

      Just sayin’.

    153. jezza says:

      Ok Nana

      But for some reason I am only getting a picture

    154. Nana says:

      Morning Macart,
      I love how Mike Russell calmly tells Tompkins the actual truth of the situation we find ourselves and who is to blame. My goodness Tompkins doesn’t like it, he looks like a wee boy being scolded for being naughty.

      As Mike Russell says “he gets up and walks right into the wall”

    155. Nana says:

      Perhaps it’s a blocker of some sort you have installed on your computer?

      Go to google, try copying and pasting this

    156. Nana says:

      Nicolas Watts says

      I reported last night on Newsnight: strong rumours that Sarah Woolaston, Anna Soubry and Heidi Allen would defect to the Independent Group this morning. Looking like it may happen shortly before PMQs

    157. jfngw says:

      I see the Tories now believe they can remove your citizenship if you are not quite ethnically pure enough, they just need to claim you are a threat to society.

      With all the deaths this current UK government is claimed to be responsible for, just in the UK, the current Home Secretary should really be a bit afraid of his continued status. They have a death toll that ISIS can only dream of. Along with their, just following orders, DWP employees.

    158. Macart says:

      Also worth a read.

    159. Mike Russel was icing a talk on Brexit in St Andrews Last night. A SNP member of Cupar branch attended and posted his take of the meeting on the branch FB page.

      This is his take : –


      Went over to ST Salvator’s yesterday to hear Mike Russell’s talk on Brexit, hosted by St Andrews University for Independence, I think it is the most honest talk I have heard by any Scottish politician. It was short for the man had a train to catch, heading out on another meeting, with his counterparts, about, well whodunit you know Brexit.
      As far as the negotiation between the Scottish and Westminster governments goes, it is all a waste of time, window dressing so May can stand up in the Commons as say we are listening and in conversation with the devolved parliaments, but as Russell put it, it is difficult to negotiate with someone who knows what they don’t want but not what they want, and still don’t. More so when the people you are dealing with do not have the authority to change anything (lackeys). If there are any Yessers out there who believe Nicola Sturgeon is about to call IndiRef2 anytime soon, forget it. You may have been promised a vote if Scotland was taken out of Europe against our will, but.
      Russell said they were not about to go down the Catalonia road, it would have to be an agreement between the Scottish Parliament and Westminster. That is not going to happen whilst May is PM you all know her thoughts on that. You had your wee day in the sun in 2014 you lost we won, just content yourself at the back of the bus, May said she will be stepping down before the next general election, and who knows a new Leader of the Tory party in Westminster (for it looks as if Labour is heading for the wilderness) may have a more open attitude to a second independence referendum but again that could be years away, unless she calls a snap election, which seems unlikely, then again so many things that seems unlikely have happed of late. The other reason no Westminster government will grant us the opportunity of a second independence referendum, there is no pressure on them to do so, and secondly, they are not sure of winning, it was too close for comfort for them last time around.
      Russell went on to say that after Brexit the Scottish government would, as far as they were able, keep Scottish laws and directives in line with the EU, (presumably to make any reapplying for membership if and when Scotland ever became independent) now that does not sound to me like a referendum anytime soon. He did say, that other countries had gained their independence without a referendum, the people simply asked for it. Under the present system where the SNP are happy to play Westminster’s game, it is hard to see a situation that would make it possible for the Scottish people to have that say. They can vote in pro-independent parties to Holyrood, but Holyrood is a paper tiger when it comes to constitutional matters. The people could vote for a one hundred per cent Westminster representation of MPs, that has gone well so far, ignored, bullied, name calling, sidelined. Seems the only alternative is a populous uprising from the grassroots, is that likely – answers on a piece of paper to ……to.


    160. Lenny Hartley says:

      James caithness, hanks for that, i had edited out my first response, but obviously if that is the case there is going to be a lot of unhappy bunnies about.

    161. jezza says:

      Nana 8.58am

      When I open that link you posted Nana, all i get is a picture of Tomkins standing at his desk in the Scottish Parliament..

      Strange !!!

    162. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      James Caithness at 9.41

      That sounds very much like a very serious and clumsy misrepresentation of what Mike Russell actually said.

    163. Breeks says:

      James Caithness says:
      20 February, 2019 at 9:41 am

      “…. Seems the only alternative is a populous uprising from the grassroots, is that likely – answers on a piece of paper to ……”

      … to the Emergency Application to the ECJ to clarify it judgement whether revocation of Article 50 being the sovereign prerogative of the state it applied to might facilite Scotland citing the Claim of Right and Constitutional Sovereignty of the people to unilaterally revoke Article 50 insofar as it runs contrary to the sovereign will of the people.

      FFS. We are running out of time. We are in free fall, with no functioning canopy, and dangerously close to the minimum height needed to open our reserve chute.

      Sovereignty = Backstop = No Brexit.

      CHALLENGE IT, or damn you all.

    164. robertknight says:

      James Caithness…

      A fair assessment of the SG’s position by your source at the meeting.

      The people of Quebéc waited 15 years between referendums. The people of Scotland with likely wait a similar interval…

      10 years outside the EU and at the mercy of Blue and/or Red Tories at Westminster will undoubtedly concentrate the minds of a fair few Nawbags of 2014 – a certain number of which will also have shuffled off their mortal coil by 2029.

      A case of keeping one’s powder dry by the sounds of it.

    165. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Liz g @ 00:38,

      Oh, I wasn’t referring specifically to you, Liz, just making a general observation.

      Re the constitution, your example @ 03:31 is excellent in illustrating how well-intentioned but mistaken thinking can go wrong. A constitution is about universal principles, not policies.

      In the case of constitutions, less is definitely more.

      One of whose most overlooked yet most important consequences is that everyone knows and understands their fundamental rights, they don’t need the intercession of “an island of lawyers” to interpret volumes of fine print.

    166. Capella says:

      Craig Murray with an article shedding light on the Gang of Eight.

    167. Nana says:


      Craig commented on the Guardian article and hey presto it was removed

    168. Robert Peffers says:


      The below quote is from Nicola’s Paris speech and should be read well by those who have been constantly harping against the FM, The SG and the SNP. The insistence and number of attacks by so many cause doubts about the commenters object and commitment to Scottish Independence this, almost unnoticed, extract is significant and needs to be highlighted:-

      “And finally, we proposed that when there is greater clarity about the terms of Brexit, Scotland must have the option to choose a different course, by opting to become an independent country. I will say more about independence at a future date.”

      That is a clear statement of intent by the First Minister of Scotland, Leader of the SG and SNP and is made to the World during a speech covered by the World’s TV, Radio and print media. It is a clear and precise commitment to Scottish Independence and clearly states that commitment is delayed due to lack of any clear settlement of the idiotically named, “Brexit”, conundrum.

      What that statement does is tell the World that the FM/SG/SNP are firmly committed to Scottish Independence and that the commitment is affected by, but not dependent upon, The United Kingdom Government’s shambolic attempts to take Scotland out of the European Union against the expressed will of a majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland.

    169. Marcia says:

      Is a bit embarrassing for a Charted Accountant to not know that gross income less personal allowances and then deduct reliefs is then the amount that is be subject to tax.

    170. Scottish Questions before PMQ`s,

      British Unionist Ian Murray to ask Mundell why everything is sh#t in Scotland under SNP,

      British Unionist Kirstene Hair to pump her wee fists and ask Mundell why everything is sh#t is Scotland under SNP,

      British Unionist Jo Swinson with her ever changing English/Scottish/Welsh,posh accent asking Mundell why everything is sh#t in Scotland under SNP,

      same sh#t different day in the twisted world of Westminster.

    171. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dr Jim says: 20 February, 2019 at 1:27 am:

      ” … I guess she says a lot in private though, to the right people.”

      She also says a lot, in a few words, within her engagements that get World coverage but are not properly reported by the Westminster Establishment funded/controlled media.

      I highlight this little snippet at 10:18 am on this thread. It comes from Nicola’s Speech in Paris:-

      “And finally, we proposed that when there is greater clarity about the terms of Brexit, Scotland must have the option to choose a different course, by opting to become an independent country.
      I will say more about independence at a future date.”

      She could not be clearer about the FM/SG/SNP commitment to going for independence when the time is right.

    172. mike cassidy says:

      James Caithness 9.41

      Can we start with a link to that, please.

      Cos its only a month since Mike Russell was saying this.

    173. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Marcia @ 10.29am

      As a couple of us demonstrated, further up this thread, last night: James Kelly is not, and never has been, “a Chartered Accountant.”

      He appears to have a lesser accountancy qualification, but, he is not a member of ICAS (the Institute of Chartered Accountants, Scotland) – the professional body which has oversight of properly-qualified accountants in Scotland who are entitled to describe themselves as a: “Chartered Accountant.”

      However, I am sure the lesser body through which he qualified would be equally mortified to discover his lack of knowledge of tax law and its application.

    174. Cubby says:

      James Caithness @9.41 am

      You quote from someone but do not say who. Why?

      How is this any different from the Britnat media and their “critics say”.

      P.S. Scotland is not Catalonia.

    175. yesindyref2 says:

      I put something about this on the previous thread, but this from Nana is interesting and direcly relevant

      Brexit causing ‘palpable decline’ in UK influence at the UN

      compare that to this from Henry Jackson which is doing the rounds because it puts the UK seoond in “Geopolitical capability”. That’s based on a range of things including military, and it seems some silly comments are going around about the military.

      But they miss the point about Brexit, and that’s made by that first article about the diplomats rating the UK’s influence as waning already because of Brexit.

      The thing about military capability by the way is that while in a lot of ways the UK might and still might be second in the world, no country is an island, military capability is interconnected.

      For instance, in normal NATO or UN operation, the carriers would be escorted not just by Royal Navy escorts but also by other NATO members warships, or even UN members not members of NATO. Replenishmensts might be by the UK’s Royal Fleet Auxiliary ships – or by any other country inclduing the US. You see this even on Joint Warrior exercises. If there’s any corresponding waning in the military sphere of influence, the UK’s military which could become more standalone is just not as effective – and therefore drops in itself from 2nd position.

      The UK is making an ass of itself on the world stage, not just the EU one. It might have been 2nd in goepolitical capability not considering Brexit, but that is going to decrease – and is already, according to that report by the UK branch of the United Nations Association.

    176. yesindyref2 says:

      Wrong bloody Henry Jackson Society link, sorry, that’s the 2017 one NOT the 2019 one. ‘Yrtis

    177. Sarah says:

      @DMH, Cubby and others: I was at an SNP meeting this week with an MSP – I got the same impression as James Caithness’s friend. And Wee Ginger Dug’s article in yesterday’s National shows that he is unhappy with what seems to be the Scot Gov line. I share his feelings.

    178. A concern troll is a person who participates in a debate posing as an actual or potential ally who simply has some concerns they need answered before they will ally themselves with a cause. In reality they are a critic.

    179. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Peffers @ 10:18:Fine words indeed, RP, and what fills us with hope and keeps us hanging on, if somewhat impatiently at times, to see the day when they are turned into action.

      But it would help greatly if those of us of an independent-thinking disposition aren’t casually labelled as enemies to be disparaged for deviating even a millimetre from some self-imagined Party Line. We are on the same side, not devious trolls; the real ones are not hard to distinguish.

      It would also help if we didn’t keep getting contrary hints, as recently upthread for example, that some senior SNP figures are rather lukewarm and unclear about any kind of proactive action any time soon. It may be deliberate misdirection, but it does grate.

      The unique opportunity provided by this current feebleness of the UK state should not be lost for lack of thought or gumption, or it won’t be forgiven.

    180. Nana says:

      Soubry says
      It is with a heavy heart I have today resigned from the Conservative Party.

    181. mike cassidy says:

      Sarah 10.59

      James Caithness posted with no id or link.

      No way is the sort of claim made in his post going to be ‘accepted’ without at least clearing the first WOS hurdle.

      As with yourself.

      What meeting?

      Where and when?

      Which MSP?

    182. Robert Peffers says:

      @Liz g says: 20 February, 2019 at 3:16 am:

      ” … There’s not a bloody thing we can do about it.”

      Well yes there is, Liz g. What’s more it was partly done in 1320 by the Declaration of Arbroath that stated and was accepted by the then international authority and is enshrined in Scots law until this very day.

      By the still extant, independent, Scottish Rule of Law, the people of Scotland are legally sovereign. That means, legally, if the people don’t like what their , “monarchy”, is doing they have the legal right to , “Drive Him/her out”.

      Thing is there is presently no legal mechanism for the people of Scotland’s wishes to be carried out. This is directly due to the union with the Kingdom of England and the Union parliament use of English Law while ignoring Scots law.

      All that needs to be done is for a clause to be added that sets up a mechanism for the people to recall a government trying to force unpopular things upon the people. Something like an open petition to call for a Scottish General Election with a set percentage of the people’s signatures.

      An always open reminder to those elected to office that they are the servants and the people are the masters with the power to remove and replace them if they do not follow the people’s will.

      The problems with Westminster is it follows English law and ignores Scots law and there is no way to remove an MP, a party or a government that acts against the best interests of the people.

      Which is why, today, Westminster is against a second Brexit referendum, a second Scottish Indy referendum and why we cannot get shot of Theresa and her much divided party in government.
      Scots law has it covered – excepting for a mechanism to recall an elected person that is a total waste of time and space and to elect another in their place.

      The problem being that once elected these people believe they are the masters and the electorate are the slaves. The legal position being that the people, being legally sovereign, are the masters but the people have no way to sack an unwanted elected person who the majority want rid of.

    183. yesindyref2 says:

      Anyone who’s read Mike Russell in for instance The National or seen him on TV would laugh at the thought of him being “lukewarm”. The guy’s a legend. You only have to google
      Mike Russell Brexit Independence
      to get loads of links like one “Mike Russell said that a vote on Brexit or independence “will have to happen” and rejected the premise that the UK government would refuse permission for another poll.

      Strange attempt to try to discredit Russell – they’s shiting themselves.

    184. sinky says:

      Three Tory MPs have joined the Labour 8 to make 11 in “new party”.

      Now if this group gets 36 MPs they will replace the SNP as third force at Westminster and get two questions to PM etc plus loads of Short Money to fund them.

      However it makes a mockery of democracy if a new “grouping” can replace the SNP at HoC despite no member of public ever voting for the new “party”.

      Even with 11, expect them to get plenty of BBC Question Time appearances compared to the SNP.

    185. When the British nationalists claim to all and sundry that Scottish education is failing under the Scottish Government.

      I do wonder if they ever take a look at standard of education which is displayed by their own members who
      are sitting in parliament, such as Cole Hamilton or James Kelly etc?

    186. ronnie anderson says:

      I hear footsteps slowly walking as they gently walk across they floor, mair feking distraction on the road tae the cliffs

    187. robertknight says:

      Of course they’ll get BBC QT slots…

      London’s Metropolitan Police was rightly identified as being “Institutionally Racist” – any fair examination of the BBC would find that it is ‘Institutionally Unionist’.

    188. Sarah says:

      @mikecassidy: a certain amount of discretion is needed on an open site. And I don’t want to dishearten Yessers. But Paul Kavanagh’s article in The National is in the public domain and worth reading IMHO.

      My local paper is carrying an Indyposter paid for by me this week [the Scotland assets one – water, fish, renewables etc] as I think we all need to increase our efforts [where possible] and raise the profile of the case for Scotland being able and needing to take back control.

    189. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, I think the only time you’d find Mike Russell “lukewarm” is if he went skiing in the 30 degree below Arctic in a blizzard wearing only jeans and a T-shirt, and even then I’d hae ma doots.

    190. Fergus Green says:

      3 Tories have left the Tory Party to join 8 Tories who left the Labour Party, to form yet another Tory Party.

    191. Dr Jim says:

      If folk are not happy with the SNP over Independence the time to girn about it is if they don’t deliver it, not if you Think! they possibly maybe might not I’m not sure don’t deliver it

      So far the FM has not deviated from her script “When the terms of Brexit become clearer” and we all know what that means and I won’t insult anybody’s intelligence by laying out all the scenarios that can alter that future

      In the next few weeks the FM will make her statement when there is no turning back from the UKs position, if she doesn’t say what people are hoping for and it doesn’t suit the timetable of peoples hopes then I’m absolutely sure she knows full well the implications of that decision

      If the FM makes the *wrong* statement on Independence two things are likely to happen, Independence supporters might lose heart and leave the party
      Supporters of the Union will celebrate and gain heart making future efforts on Independence even harder

      I have a strong feeling the FM knows all the ramifications and the numbers surrounding them

      What’s a few weeks when it’s been 300 years, give her a chance to do what we hope is the right thing and not worry about if it’s the wrong thing (in your point of view) until she does it

    192. yesindyref2 says:

      @sinky “Now if this group gets 36 MPs they will replace the SNP as third force at Westminster and get two questions to PM etc plus loads of Short Money to fund them.

      Tom Gordon asked the House of Commons and they say short money is allocated on General Election results, NOT during the parliamentary term. So they get no short money, none at all. As for them replacing the SNP as third party I doubt it for the same reason, but haven’t seen any confirmation of that so far.

    193. Graf Midgehunter says:

      That does not sound at all like Mike Russel, in fact it sounds to me more like someone posing as an SNP member and trying to sell a negative storyline.

      “Under the present system where the SNP are happy to play Westminster’s game, it is hard to see a situation that would make it possible for the Scottish people to have that say. They can vote in pro-independent parties to Holyrood, but Holyrood is a paper tiger when it comes to constitutional matters. ”

      It’s very suspicious IMO.

    194. Sarah says:

      Further to Robert P’s latest comment above, where he mentions a petition – that reminded me that the MSP pointed out the mechanism available to us all is to petition Holyrood about any matter that concerns us.

      Unlike Westminster, there is no numbers of signatures hurdle to cross.

      Apparently these petitions are effective.

      So how about it? If Scot Gov is waiting for a sign of the popular will then we can do a petition to Holyrood.

    195. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Sorry, my post was a reply to:

      James Caithness at 9.41

    196. Dr Jim says:


      At the moment in the HOC we have Tory Labour Lib Dem DUP all anti Scottish parties, if there’s another party forming that’ll be 5 anti Scottish parties in the HOC no matter what size of party they are

      It’s been hard enough fighting 4 to 1 odds let alone having another lot of them to make it 5 to 1 because we know what that means for us even if we after some mentalness from the Scottish electorate DON’T vote for Independence, less Scottish representation on committees and the like and God forbid if there turns out to be more of them than us in this new found 5th party Scotland will be virtually silent in the HOC

      And that’s not even counting the bloody HOL

    197. yesindyref2 says:

      Okey-doke, via Tom Gordon’s article and the “Members Estimate Committee”, this:

      Short Money is made available to all opposition parties in the House of Commons that secured either two seats, or one seat and more than 150,000 votes, at the previous General Election.

      Did look but can’t find anything about whether the PMQs is on the same basis “at the previous General Election”.

    198. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 11:36,

      Apart from the non-trivial question of numbers, the breakaway group could surely only become “third-largest party” in HoC if they were actually formally a party. Currently at least they are not.

      (Incidentally, I welcome your previous comments on Mike Russell. It’s more a feeling, which I know is shared by many, that in general re Brexit there has been rather too much public emphasis on mitigation rather than anything stronger. Even if that is all part of the art of winning the necessary converts.

      Be that as it may, Nicola’s statements have always been nothing but steadfastly encouraging.)

    199. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dr Jim
      I don’t think even if they got 100 members they’d get any standing in the House of Commons except as Independents, as they didn;t fight an election as a group. I’ve seen that opinion the lsat day or two, but it isn’t an authorative opinion yet as far as I know.

      Makes sense though, as otherwise if you had say 4 parties with just 10 members each they could call themselves a “group” and fiddle the system, but the electorate did NOT vote for them as a group, so it would be improper, totally improper.

    200. geeo says:

      I hope everyone caught that on ‘English MP’s Questions about Scottish affairs’, comically known as “Scottish Questions” just now.

      In response to the ridiculous as always, Kirstene Hair, the Treasury spokesman just CONFIRMED that:

      “Whisky itself represents 20% of ALL uk food and drink sales from the united kingdom”


    201. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Dr Jim @ 11:49,

      Well, there is that. One can readily imagine the BBC just lovin’ it, f’rinstance. Being “topical” and all…

    202. yesindyref2 says:

      I go with what Dr Jim says about it all.

      All the world’s a stage,
      And all the men and women merely players;
      They have their exits and their entrances,
      And one man in his time plays many parts,

    203. galamcennalath says:

      Fergus Green says:

      3 Tories have left the Tory Party to join 8 Tories who left the Labour Party, to form yet another Tory Party.

      Indeed. We’ve got Red Tories, Blue Tories, Amber Tories, and even the Purple UKIP Tories.

      Not many colours left for the New Tories.

      Plaid Cymru and the Greens have green.

      Pink or orange have connotations.

      What’s the betting they will steal SNP Yellow?

    204. mike cassidy says:


      I accept that Weegingerdug has arrived at the moment where he thinks the SNP are kicking the independence can down the road in a bizarre parallel to May’s action.

      There have been several posters on here who have thought that for a while.

      And it is always pointed out that the SNP cannot do anything until Brexit is realised in whatever form that turns out to be.

      Because that would be the big change of circumstance etc

      The new development is the postings by James Caithness and yourself indicating that can-kicking is exactly what the SNP are doing NOW.

      That’s a big claim.

      And,like any big claim, requires big proof.

      Because, if true, its a fecking big political gamechanger.

      Note I’m not questioning your desire for independence.

      Mr Caithness I’ll reserve judgement on!

    205. Robert Peffers says:

      @jezza says:20 February, 2019 at 8:15 am:

      ” … Do Twitter videos only work if you are signed up to Twitter???
      Because when I go into one of your Titter links all I see is a picture,,,no video.”

      It should load if you click on the picture.

    206. admiral says:

      “At the moment in the HOC we have Tory Labour Lib Dem DUP all anti Scottish parties, if there’s another party forming that’ll be 5 anti Scottish parties in the HOC no matter what size of party they are”

      Dr Jim – I count Caroline Lucas of the Greens as anti Scottish. She has never supported the idea of Scottish independence.

      Anyway, they are all either blue, red, yellow or green Tories.

    207. Dr Jim says:


      When did *improper* ever stop the English parliament from making itself *proper* We know what they are and what they think their duty to themselves is

      Just days ago Jack McConnell referred to Scotland as a territory and proposed a council of ministers to run Scotland, with him in it along with people like Helen Liddle and Michael Moore, y’know experienced people he said

      These are people it took us forever to get rid of now they want to sneak themselves back in again

    208. Ghillie says:

      Robert Peffers @ 10.18 am

      Beautifully said =)

      Clear as crystal.

      Our First Minister, our Nicole, our Scottish Government, our SNP telling the World that Scotland MUST have the option to choose Independence 🙂

    209. yesindyref2 says:

      Mixed bag.
      “Caroline Lucas voted against giving Scotland full responsibility for taxation and spending in Scotland.”


      “Caroline Lucas voted to give the Scottish Parliament the power to call a referendum on Scottish independence. ”

    210. Petra says:

      Thanks for the links Nana. Gove doing another U-turn? He, his boss and the rest of the Westminster cabal of liars should be strung up along with the well paid Unionist crew sitting on their erses at Holyrood.

      I see that the 11 “independents” are sitting behind the SNP in the Commons. Lucky them …. NOT. Someone mentioned that they may become the third party, however I read somewhere that they’re not considered to be a “party” at all … yet.


      On the subject of Constitutions I see that the Irish Constitution has been amended 35 times since 1937.


      Iain Blackford at PMQ’s – resume:-

      “Westminster is broken. The Tories and Labour are imploding. 100,000 jobs in Scotland are under threat. If you don’t act Prime Minister Scotland will.”

    211. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dr Jim
      Jack McConnel’s ambition was to be a stand-up comedian but he missed and became a sit down politician instead and actually succeeded in becoming a genuine comedian, albeit unaware of his natural talent. Frankie Boyle eat your heart out!

    212. CameronB Brodie says:

      Serious question – has anyone been able to pinpoint the legal source of the Prime-minister’s power to change the legal personality of Scotland’s resident population?

    213. Dr Jim says:

      There’s no can kicking going on by the SNP

      They’re saying and doing exactly what they said they would do

      The folk who claim this can kicking is going on I believe are just anxious the same as the rest of us but they’re projecting what they DON’T want to happen before it does happen

      When you break down the waiting time of 5 weeks to go MPs only work 5 days a week and even if they are in the Commons 10 hours a day it’s like around 250 hours to go

      That doesn’t seem so long now does it…… (figures rough estimates)

    214. geeo says:

      Ian Blackford on Treeza’s inaction over ‘ukexit’.

      “If the Prime Minister will not do something about it, SCOTLAND WILL” !!

      treeza’s response ?

      “Snp bad”.

      She either knows whats coming, and trying to pretend otherwise in public, or is just wilfully thick.

      That was the clearest, most unambiguous declaration that Scotsgov are about to unleash some pretty decisive action.

      Anyone watching Mr Blackford who thinks that there is no SNP/Scotsgov plan, and a decisive plan at that, then i would gently suggest they are on something.

    215. galamcennalath says:


      i) I sense the SNP are preparing. There has been a strong consistent message recently that Scotland must not be dragged out of the EU and we should have the opportunity to choose our own future. I still have faith in the SNP leadership.

      ii) There has to be some more clarity about Brexit. Right now anything from cancellation through to a suicidal cliff jump are possible outcomes.

      iii) However, I believe WGD has set the right tone. The YES movement does not have infinite faith nor patience. We sit around 50% backing for Indy despite very little campaigning. We are in a strong position and the opportunity must be capitalised on soon.

      In my mind, I see the situation as a timing balance between sufficient clarity on the UK’s future versus firing the starting pistol on the campaign to choose Scotland’s.

      There may not be full Brexit clarity for a long time, launching Scotland’s Choice MUST come long before FULL Brexit clarity.

    216. Giving Goose says:

      CameronB Brodie

      What is the context of your question? What has happened?

    217. Dr Jim says:


      There’s a HOC committee taking evidence on Jack McConnells proposals chaired by Pete Wishart, I watched it, it was a nightmare before all the Christmasses put together, Helen Liddle actually got away with saying it was much better under a Labour administration because they co-operated better but the SNP don’t co-operate, Y’see that’s why I could never be a politician I couldn’t prevent myself crawling over the top of the tables reaching for their throats

      They are seriously treating this as a thing as a way of subverting the SNP

    218. galamcennalath says:

      Me @ 12:37

      Scotland’s Choice seems not a bad slogan for IndyRef2 when I see it 🙂

    219. CameronB Brodie says:

      Giving Goose
      Parliamentary sovereignty was removed from British constitutional law in 1991, though it still appears to be in effect. That’s my reading of it anyway but I’m not a lawyer.

    220. Brian Powell says:


      They would need to stand in an election on a manifesto after registering as a party to be considered a party.

    221. Dave McEwan Hill says:
      20 February, 2019 at 10:00 am
      James Caithness at 9.41

      That sounds very much like a very serious and clumsy misrepresentation of what Mike Russell actually said.

      I am glad to hear what you say Dave. I hope your interpretation is correct. However I heard Mike Russell when he gave a talk in Cupar Bowling Club mid-2018 and he said much the same as my source said last night. If you were there Dave I’d like to read what your thoughts were.

    222. Cubby says:

      The only disappointing thing about Blackfords comments at PMQs today is that he didn’t call her a liar again. Is it mandatory for her to lie every time speaks.

    223. CameronB Brodie says:

      “Conceal your dispositions, and your condition will remain secret, which leads to victory; show your dispositions, and your condition will become patent, which leads to defeat.” – Sun Tzu

    224. cearc says:

      The wee bit of the house of commons seats for the third party and others must be getting awfie crowded.

    225. Scott says:

      Sorry O/T PMQs in the chair is Nick ( he did not answer) Robinson what a bloody disgrace a right Tory twat going on at the Lab about the Jews but never a mention about the anti Muslim in the tory ranks.
      Not a Lab fan but he did not need all that from NR.

    226. Dorothy Devine says:

      Wouldn’t it be funny if ten or eleven tories defected – where would that leave Mrs May?

    227. Tatu3 says:

      “We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as (my bold) Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.”

      Yes Brexit is a big change in circumstance, but the above quote says “such as” it doesn’t say it has to be only because of brexit! and after the past two and a half years of Scotland and the Scottish government being ignored I would say that could be considered a pretty big change in circumstance.

    228. Cubby says:

      I read the Wee Ginger Dugs article in the National and what I read is him saying if Sturgeon keeps on kicking the can down the road there will be unhappy people. Seems a statement of the obvious.

      However, I didn’t read him saying it was his opinion now she will not do something.

      Too many people being influenced by Britnat propaganda and reading their fears into everything.

    229. Camz says:

      That numpty is still trying to decide whether he should sit down.

    230. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      With today’s 3 Tory defections, the new group is now level in numbers with the LibDems. It just takes one more to sign up and the latter are effectively toast. Maybe they should just merge on the basis of “if you can’t beat ’em, join ’em”.

      Ian Blackford once again very effective in the House of Follies. The only one at PMQs it seems to notice the elephant in the room.

    231. Golfnut says:

      @ Cameron B Brodie.

      There isn’t, only Westminsters claim to Sovereignty based on the so called ‘ glorious revolution ‘.
      It was interesting that the Supreme court ruling on the Continuity Bill included the opinion that westminster held unqualified sovereignty, which is clearly untrue.
      The Supreme Court trashed its reputation and credibility as a non political legal entity in its handling of the Continuity Bill, an indication of just how desperate times are for the union.

    232. CameronB Brodie says:

      Is there an actual epidemic of antisemitism in Labour and Britain in general? There is a cultural root to this but I posted some reliable and up-to-date research a while back, which found virtually no evidence of it in the general public. I’m afraid I can’t find it now, though I haven’t looked properly.

      Anyhoo, I think this particular political football needs some critical attention.

      Socialist antisemitism and its discontents in England, 1884–98


      Virdee’s essay explores the relationship between English socialists and migrant Jews amid the new unionism of the late nineteenth century: a cycle of protest characterized by sustained collective action by the unskilled and labouring poor demanding economic and social justice. Reading this labour history against the grain, with a greater attentiveness to questions of race and class, helps to make more transparent both the prevalence and structuring force of socialist antisemitism, as well as English and Jewish socialist opposition to it. In particular, the essay suggests that the dominant socialist discourse was intimately bound up with questions of national belonging and this directly contributed to a racialized politics of class that could not imagine migrant Jews as an integral component of the working class.

      At the same time, such socialist antisemitism was also challenged by a minority current of English Marxists whose conceptions of socialism refused to be limited by the narrow boundaries of the racialized nation-state. And they were joined in this collective action by autonomous Jewish socialist organizations who understood that the liberation of the Jewish worker was indivisible from that of the emancipation of the working class in general. With the help of Eleanor Marx and others, these latter strands entangled socialist politics with questions of combatting antisemitism, and thereby stretched existing conceptions of class to encompass the Jewish worker.

      KEYWORDS: antisemitism, Ben Tillett, class, Eleanor Marx, England, Jews, race, Social Democratic Federation, socialism, Socialist League

      The Labour anti-Semitism row has thrust British Jewish identity into the public domain, but its complexity is often lost

      Zionism: Critical Perspectives

    233. CameronB Brodie says:

      It’s always a relief to find reasurance. 😉

    234. CameronB Brodie says:

      It’s always a relief to find reassurance. 😉

    235. SilverDarling says:


      She had a working majority of 4 with DUP who have 10 MPs, the 3 Tories now no longer subject to 3 line whip so she is very vulnerable. Here’s a photo of them looking really p**ssed off as the newbies take their seats!

    236. Socrates MacSporran says:

      PMQs really is a meaningless nonsense.

      Just watched the clip on BBC Shortbread of the Blackford/May exchange at PMQs today. This ended with the Maybot trotting-out figures about staying in this terrible Union is worth just over £1000 per year to everyone in Scotland.

      She then finished with her big point: “The only people damaging Scotland’s economy are the members sitting on the SNP benches,” she said.

      DOH!! The SNP are in opposition, so they are very-unlikely to have a say in any Westminster decisions which will affect the Scottish economy – the in-built English majority will always out-vote them.

      They might be able to advise, but, have no say in the decisions on the Scottish economy taken by the SNP government in Scotland. And, in any case, the Holyrood government does not have full control of matters effecting the Scottish economy.

      Ergo: Theresa talks pish, and with the cannon fodder behind her cheering her on, she gets away with talking pish.

      Time for Independence.

    237. Nana says:

      France24 news station

      VIDEO: I asked Nicola Sturgeon if she believes the UK will quit the EU as planned on March 29th

    238. ronnie anderson says:

      McConnell furgoat wan of they experienced politicians = Lord Watson the experienced curtain raiser ( strike that ) curtain firer ah mean we’ve no hud wan o thaim fur a long time

    239. SilverDarling says:

      A vote of no confidence in the Government is now not as winnable by the Tories as before as the IG will vote en bloc. However, Soubry et al adamant they do not want a General Election, so would they abstain or vote with the Tories and the DUP even though they cite the DUP malevolent influence as a reason they left?

      More Tories to follow apparently. Names like Nick Boles and Nicolas Soames being bandied around. Mind you, Soames grandpa crossed the floor a fair few times so following in the family footsteps!

    240. Dr Jim says:

      Unionists rage over the handing out of free Nicola Sturgeon pens
      “Some people have even been seen drinking from SNP mugs” they cry “It’s an outrage* they claim “clear electioneering” they fume “The SNP are politicising charity* they wail

      Have none of these complainers noticed that the SNP are a political party so advertising that is kinda in the job description

    241. CameronB Brodie says:

      “More Tories to follow apparently”

      I wondering how long the One Nation Tories would put up with unvarnished bigotry, racism and outright majoritarian abuse of constitutional power. I wonder how much longer Scotland will be cowed to these political thugs?

    242. Dr Jim says:

      I always admired Jack McConnells taste in the most expensive clothes money can buy and the great wafts of massively overpriced cologne that followed him around like a Bisto kid, and those shoes, hand made from the tears of dying lambs from the mountains of Italy

      His well manicured fingertips and nails that shone gleaming like little twinkling stars in the moonlight, ties! I nearly forgot the ties Windsor knotted silk woven from the many thousands of silk moths collected by hand by Tibetan waifs from the slopes of the Himalayas and transported across the world for Jack McConnell *MAN of the PEOPLE*

    243. Daisy Walker says:

      The Importance of Another Point of View.

      We are lucky in Scotland, lucky in a very ironic, cynical kind of way.

      For much of our population now know, that the Labour Party throughout the UK, is nothing more than an empty front for the establishment. A way for the public to let off steam, a party which will deliver the same damage as the Tories, but with a sad face and a slower time table. A party created out of the strongest of principles and the bravest of campaigners. A hollowed out, shell of a party, not even a shadow of its former self.

      But it didn’t start out this way.

      Almost from the outset it became another haven for privately educated, wealthy establishment figures. What rebels. Another route to power, for those bred to it. Tony Benn anyone. How good of him to give up his hereditary peerage, and how wise of him to ensure his family line would continue to receive it.

      And a boys club for the blokes in the unions. Not the wee wimin ye understand, just the blokes.

      All this and more, until they gave up one of their founding principles – public ownership of public assets, and brokered an illegal war.

      Hiding in plain site, one compromise, one promise, one lie, one bit of corruption at a time.

      And that’s the rub, for in order to do so, there had to be an environment of ‘don’t you be criticising now, not in public, leave it tae the big boys in the smoke filled rooms, they ken best – any dissent is disloyalty, the leadership have a plan, they just cannae share it wi the likes o’ us’.

      And that is a problem.

      Brexit is the biggest, most damaging thing to happen to all the countries of the UK since WW2.

      People will die – a privatised NHS, a destroyed Social Security System, mass unemployment and all the ills and deprivation it brings – depression, drug and alcohol abuse, homelessness, lack of opportunities, whole generations thrown on the scrap heap due to lack of employment opportunities.

      For the UK Government to purposefully inflict this level of destruction on its own, is mind boggling in scale, and beyond comprehension for all people with an ounce of humanity in them. The utter, sheer ruthlessness is breathtaking.

      But it is the British Establishment we are dealing with, and they were raised on the ruins of Empire. Murder, theft, genocide, environmental destruction… these are the tools in their box, and they have all been used.

      If they have not compromised members of the SNP, they will not have been doing their job properly. And, lest I be accused of casting dispersions upon individuals – I’m not talking about bribery or sordid activities that would leave them open to blackmail – I’m talking about decent people with loved ones, and very scary, very able people making them aware of how easy it is for tragic ‘accidents’ to happen.

      There will never be evidence, or resignations, but what there will be is plausible sounding platitudes, reasoned arguments for ‘no the now’ ‘mibees later’ and under the cover of keeping powder dry – punches will be pulled.

      Right just now is the time to be saying, why are we not doing this, why are we not doing that… and getting answers!

      Because if these questions are not asked now, and not answered now… then the answer in the future will be, accompanied by lot of hand wringing – ‘oh well, with the benefit of hindsight, maybe we should have, etc’.

      I whole heartedly hope, the leadership of the SNP have a master plan, I desperately hope they understand that a No Deal, means State of Emergency, means Holyrood shut (with them locked outside), and like almost everyone on this site, I cling to the crumbs of strong confident body language, and clear cut statements such as ‘Scotland will not be taken out of the EU without consent’. But these are small comforts compared with clear knowledge of a structured plan.

      I know 2 things for certain –

      1/ there will be no clarity on Brexit (even a no deal, will be have some form of staggered starting time – for the EU to cope, not us, and in that time frame, significant chaos will ensure State of Emergency implementation, and real news/facts will become a very difficult thing to get, never mind get out.)

      2/ if there is a plan at SNP HQ ( and I really hope there is) – currently they are not carrying the Yes Movement with them. Actually – scrub that, its poorly written, it is not their job to ‘carry’ the Yes Movement, but the 2 organisations can and should be operating in parallel – the Yes Movement covering the ground the formal SNP Party cannot. At the moment Yes is locked out and being kept in the dark, and that is an incredibly arrogant and risky thing to do, never mind a waste of resources.
      Without disclosing their plan, they can and should be asking the Yes movement to get out posters/info on one specific topic per month, saturate/covering the whole of Scotland, pick Scotland’s real wealth, pick the fate of our NHS under Brexit, pick whiskey, pick satellites, pick something.

      They say that inactivity destroys moral in an army. Well the same is true for a Movement. Surely the leadership of the SNP can see that, and can – discretely – reach out and bridge this.

      I started this by saying – The Importance of Another Point of View. I hope some of the above has gone some way to evidencing that.

      We are in a position just now of having to go through the rubbish bins and scratch for information, desperately trying to read the ruines, separate the wheat from the chaffe and leave no cliche unused – since that is our reality, can we please not accuse people of being trolls, just because they are not finding every crumb that falls a comfort.

      Mr Peffers will now come along and accused me of disloyalty – again.

    244. It's Happening says:

      Im dismayed that some folk think there aren’t enough smart men and women in Scotland to take over from the likes of James Kelly post independence. How’s that for a vote of confidence in our people? Dearie me!!

    245. galamcennalath says:

      “Prime Minister Theresa May could pass her Brexit deal if she agreed to hold another referendum to see if the public accepted it”

      Jo Maugham QC was talking about this idea earlier. He seemed to see it as a way out of the mess.

      May’s deal is for a Blind Brexit and her red lines on CU etc would stand. This would give absolute clarity for Indy after EURef2 IF England voted for May’s deal and Scotland didn’t.

    246. Peter says:

      A Minister in the Scottish Government was at our local SNP meeting on Monday evening. She reported that Scotgov was working flat out night and day putting in place a huge volume of complex and urgent preparation for a possible No Deal crash out at the end of March.

      This work must be done, it is the Scotgov’s duty and responsibility. It will probably be completely wasted work, as some postponement or deal is likely, but [unlike Westminster] Scotgov has to prepare.

      Thus, all Ministers and all SNP and Green MSPs are in effect chained by duty to their desks just now. They simply cannot give up this work to campaign in the next weeks.

      This had not occurred to me before.

    247. SilverDarling says:

      @Cameron B Brodie

      It’s all a parlour game to the Tories and Labour though, isn’t it?
      I watched the Soubry et al press conference and they were extending the hand of consensus politics to everyone EXCEPT the SNP.

      When push comes to shove you know they would all vote together to beat down the SNP on anything meaningful.


      I get your frustration – we are sitting watching an authoritarian nightmare unfold in front of our eyes. Citizenship being taken away rather than take responsibility. We have a powerless PM sitting out the paralysis she has created who no doubt will walk away like Cameron to wash her hands of it on the 30th March.

      I implore those in a position to get us out of here to start the process soon otherwise the means to do so will be taken away in one fell swoop of Henry VIII powers.

    248. Dr Jim says:

      I guess Westminster can try to disregard what Scotlands elected by the people parliament says but they can’t lock our representatives out of it because the taxpayers of Scotland own it and as Robert Peffers would probably tell you much better than I could, that would go directly to the heart of the sovereignty issue so again my guess is they’d leave that one alone

      I’ve no problem in believing Westminster will look for every devious reason under the sun to subvert Scottish democracy but more and more these days I’m sensing all they have left is threat and no surrender bluster

      They see it coming but they don’t know when and they’re not sure how and they’re stuck between the England Brexit rock and the Scotland exit hard place so the only tactic they have left is *The can* and I think that’s why they keep kicking it playing for time till the last minute to sacrifice one or the other in the fight to keep themselves in power then fight for the bit they lose later in hopes that they win, but again they’re not sure how any of it will go so back to plan A *The can* I also believe Corbyn is complicit in *the can* plan but he’ll take Brexit first then think he can win back Scotland for Labour because I believe him to be even more arrogant than the Tories

      Meanwhile the FM sits and waits watching the battered and broken can disintegrate into pieces till they have no can left to kick and that’s when Scotland puts the boot in

      Gemmes a bogey…….I hope?

    249. geeo says:

      Sky News running a tweet saying Heidi Allen partly quit because of Tory welfare policy being heartless

      “Heidi Allen speaking first- and not talking about Brexit but interestingly saying she’s partly resigning over the party’s welfare policy, saying the Conservative Party is making poverty worse, not better”.

      Except: Her voting record says otherwise.

      . Consistently voted against laws to promote equality and human rights

      . Generally voted against paying higher benefits over longer periods for those unable to work due to illness or disability

      . Generally voted for a reduction in spending on welfare benefits

      . Consistently voted for phasing out secure tenancies for life.

      . Generally voted against transferring more powers to the Scottish Parliament.


      Aye, she is just like Mother Theresa so she is.

    250. geeo says:

      I wonder how the parliamentary arithmetic will work out like now !

      Could get interesting.

    251. Footsoldier says:

      Peter @ 2.45, yes there is always something gets in the way of campaigning for independence.

      Just before the last GE, we were told at a branch meeting by another government minister we were not in campaigning mode because of other things.

    252. schrodingers cat says:


      perhaps thats why generals dont cunsult with Footsoldiers, they dont or shouldnt need to

    253. Cubby says:

      Daisy Walker@2.32pm

      A very interesting post and a good read like all your posts.

      “I know two things for certain” – I was very surprised to read that comment. I have no idea why you are so confident on both points but particularly the first. I have long forecast a no deal UK exit followed by a United ireland and an independent Scotland but I would never consider that I know that for certain. In fact nowhere near certain. Care to elaborate why you are so certain?

      In my opinion there are more than crumbs out there. Plenty of appropriate comments have been made. Again what evidence do you base the assertion that the Yes movement is not on board with the SNP.

      What benefit is there in posing the possibility that some in the SNP may have been got at. You would have to be a bit silly not to realise that is a possibility. You do not put out any new info so again what benefit is there in posting this dispiriting possibility.

      In summary, my view is time will tell and we can all judge then whether we are led by a modern day Bruce or a bunch of Charlie’s. What is to be gained by posting dispiriting comments at this point in time?

    254. A C Bruce says:

      Daisy Walker:

      For goodness sake, give your fevered imagination a rest.

      Holyrood is owned by The Scottish nation – Westminster will not be taking over the building.

      As for the imagined threats to SNP MPs and MSPs if you have evidence of such horrors then provide it. Otherwise, just keep your hysteria to yourself.

    255. Ghillie says:

      Dr Jim @ 12.41 pm

      Day to day, I enjoy and value your comments, thank you =)

      But! That one.

      ‘Y’see that’s why I could never be a politician I couldn’t prevent myself crawling over the tops of the tables reaching for their throats’ 🙂

      You and me both. And I thought I was quite a gentle soul!

    256. Brian Doonthetoon says:


      Remember “Jim Murphy, Saviour of The Union”? It was published on YouTube on 9 Apr 2015 and, to date, has had 98,317 views.

      The strange thing is, a follow-up by Bonnie Prince Bob, “Jeremy Bernard Corbyn – ‘What Was Done'”, (another future history), was published on YouTube on 8 May 2017 but has only had 84 views. Wonder why so low?

    257. Iain 2 says:

      We are living in exciting times, the labour and torys are split.
      It is important to remember that they are two cheeks of the same arse.
      Indy ref 2 is just round the corner keep the faith.

    258. Iain 2 says:

      We are living in exciting times, the labour and torys are split.
      It is important to remember that they are two cheeks of the same arse.
      Indy ref 2 is just round the corner keep the faith.

    259. yesindyref2 says:

      Well now, many may remember this from 1977, seems appropriate somehow, with someone haveing mentioned the House of Follies:

      Welcome to the Follies of ’77
      Do you get the feeling We have only changed the name
      Welcome to the Follies of ’77
      The fantasies are different But the formula’s the same
      You know
      Nothing really changes
      Nothing really changes
      Nothing really changes
      In the Follies

    260. yesindyref2 says:

      Hot off the press!

      News just in – David Mundell defects to the Independence Group and they all go running back to their parties in panic “Please take us back, help me Rona”.

    261. Abulhaq says:

      The SNP should quit Westminster. There is no point in their mps being there. The place is falling apart, literally. I’m convinced that independence will only come by this constitutional crisis being pushed to its limits.

    262. Cubby says:

      For all those Independence supporters worrying about the SNP having no plan there was some comfort provided by Kirstene Hair in the Hof Commons this pm.

      The conservative mp who found it too difficult to make up her mind on how to vote in 2016 stands up and says that the UK exit shambles is all the SNPs grand plan to cause a disaster in the UK to get independence.

      So there they you have it – there is an SNP plan. They are totally responsible for the shambles that is Westminster. This was then confirmed by no less than the Tory MP for Stirling S. Kerr who echoed K. Hairs comments.

      So please stop worrying Independence supporters. The intellectual giants that are the Scottish Tories tell you there is a dastardly SNP plan.

    263. Gary45% says:

      CameronB Brodie@1.33
      Anti-Semitism is a serious thing, which really has to be looked into, if a part of the community is feeling under threat.
      However in the current climate that we are living in, to simply show any support, wave a flag, wear a badge showing support for the people of Palestine, you will be targeted for being Anti-Semitic.
      The Zionists of the world have used this term to try and stop discussion, criticism, or simply question the conduct of the Israeli government, and Zionist supporters.
      Palestinians are Semites, which the normal media outlets (radio) never mention when discussing the Palestine/Israel situation.
      Have a look at AIPAC to see what is happening in the States, I wonder if we could be seeing a BIPAC forming in the UK.
      I am not Anti-Semitic for the above comments.

    264. SilverDarling says:

      Amazing the power Lab and Tories attribute to the SNP. We had Tomkins yesterday saying a no deal was in their power to prevent or deliver.

      It all reeks of 1979. No matter who votes for what the SNP will be blamed. If there is no deal it will be their fault and if the deal goes through it was because they didn’t stop it.

      Simultaneously we are told no one listens to them and they are powerless. Just like it was Nicola Sturgeon’s fault that we are leaving because she didn’t campaign hard enough!

      Schrodinger’s SNP – all powerful but impotent.

    265. Macart says:

      Y’know, it should be that all the political parties of Scotland work for and draw their powers from the population of Scotland.

      But they don’t.

      It should be that all the people(s) of Scotland want to be governed by a fully empowered and responsible Scottish government sitting in a Scottish parliament. That they get the government they vote for and one that answers to their needs, their complaints and their aspirations.

      But they don’t. (work in progress)

      It should be that politics is practised with transparency, honesty and in the best interests of a population. A population that is fully conversant with its politics and that has bodies to ensure that their public servants are held absolutely to account for any transgressions.

      Take a wild guess …. m’kay?

      A twisted shower of sociopathic,…. useless articles in Westminster convinced a slim majority of our population they didn’t want that responsibility.

      ONLY a majority of our population can alter that outcome. The catch is then threefold (at least).

      1. Having a party sympathetic to self government in a position to act/protect/govern
      2. Creating an environment where a majority, (in a country where the people are the sovereign power), can be convinced to overturn a past choice
      3. Having said party procure a legal and binding opportunity where such a majority can exercise its will

      It’d be easy to blame the current Scottish government just for being … there. But they’re not to blame for austerity UK. Nor are they responsible for Brexit, or the actions of the current Conservative government and its less than honourable opposition.

      We are where we are because of the actions of the terrible two and a three centuries long propaganda campaign.

      Are the current SG doing the right thing about all of this shit show? Is the mountain too big, the timing wrong, the ask too much, the colour of the sky not quite right for them or us? Most importantly. Will that political opportunity present itself for both the SG and us to take advantage of in the very near future?

      Not a clue personally. I do know, that I’d have voted yes to self government yesterday. I’d do it today, tomorrow, later this year and a decade ahead if that’s what is required. Just as long as it takes to get a majority of our population to believe in itself and actually care how they are governed.

      Regardless, the SNP are what we’ve got in place today and they’re all that we’ve got in place at this time. Ready or not, they’re in the hot seat of protecting our interests as best possible. They’ve earned their shot at this. An opportunity only four and a bit years after many of us thought we’d never see another in our lifetimes.

      We already know what to expect from the other three amigos in Holyrood. Yes? We’re all clear on the UK we see around us today.

      Most especially that last bit is aimed at those who voted NO, but have been given cause to either regret or rethink their choice. Looking to the Conservative, Labour or Libdems is NOT an option at this point. They’re kinda the reason we’re in this cluster…thing.

      If you’re lucky? That opportunity thing won’t be too long in coming to bear.

    266. geeo says:

      I bet treeza was utterly furious as her PMQ’s ridiculing of labour party woes were brutally cancelled at the relatively last minute as news broke of tory departures.

      I would put money on that being Soubry’s idea on timing.

      Personally, during PMQ’s, just after treeza had attacked Corbyn over his shambles, would have been one hell of a statement, as it would have involved crossing the floor of the house right in front of treeza, making her look very stupid into the bargain.

      That would have been hilarious.

      Treeza really has no idea how to deal with Ian Blackford at PMQ’s, he more than any other questioner, makes her squirm badly.

      Great stuff, and makes a mockery of those who say the SNP are not doing enough to combat the pish aimed at the SNP at WM.

    267. Dr Jim says:


      I’m only a flawed human, but a Scottish one

    268. Footsoldier says:

      In reply to schrodingers cat 3:45: maybe that’s where the high heid yins are going wrong.

    269. Daisy Walker says:

      AC Bruce

      Power devolved is power retained. Power Grab – over 100 of them. In a State of Emergency – Westminster will take over control, on a UK level, any powers it sees fit.

      It is not a case of them ‘taking over the building’ they will simply close it. 3000 Civil Servants have been installed into a nearby, new build in Edinburgh for that very purpose.

      Today it is reported the MET has tripled its order of rubber bullets. In the last 2-3 months its been announced plans for Army deployment within the UK.

      Plans afoot for 400 Officers from Police Scotland being removed from Scotland to serve in Northern Ireland.

      I asked for a bit of respect for other points of view, (not just mine) I provided the reason – so that the same mistakes made by the labour party were not repeated now, with the SNP.

      You reply with comments, ‘give your fevered imagination a rest.’ ‘just keep your hysteria to yourself.’

      Inflammatory language. And one which most women will recognise as probably sexist.

      Cubby says:
      20 February, 2019 at 3:45 pm
      Daisy Walker@2.32pm

      “I know two things for certain” – I was very surprised to read that comment. I have no idea why you are so confident on both points but particularly the first. Care to elaborate why you are so certain?

      Hello Cubby – I am certain there will be no clarity on Brexit because of the following:

      At every stage where there has been a deadline, it has been kicked down the road further October 2018 became November, Meaningful Vote in December became 2 weeks later (and the option to cancel was off the table), February 14 has become the end of February, and already there is talk of mid March.

      And for why… Brexit is made to look like some accidental, monumental, fuck up. But what is the motivation behind it, and the timing.

      At every stage the official reasons given, don’t bear scrutiny.

      Immigration – the Conservatives are on record, privately admitting they didn’t give a hoot about immigration. The EU has laws in which to remove EU nationals after 3 months if they cannot support themselves. The Tories withdrew resources from UK Border Agency and never enforced the above law.

      EU Laws, can you find any Brexiteer person who can name one or more of these terrible things which cause them such disquiet. I can’t, the most I get, ‘is well, its the principle of the thing’.

      Good for business, trade deals, Blah, blah. I’d laugh but its too scary really.

      The DUP / Northern Ireland – a minority group in NI, is going against the wishes of the majority there, and likely to implement untold poverty and job losses, and the entire British Government isn’t able to do anything about it. Meanwhile all sorts of legitimate questions remain on their involvement in Cash for Ash scandal, not to mention Holidays with Pay, yet they can stop the entire WA. Really. Like I say, it doesn’t bear scrutiny.

      The only thing I can find, if you put all of that noise and distraction to one side, and ask, what is motivating the people in power, so much that they can risk losing Scotland – when they’d only just got over the big scare of just about losing her in 2014 (and all her considerable wealth) for Brexit.

      And the answer is a bigger wealth, the wealth accumulated and stashed in tax havens, accumulated over 100’s of years, from robbing entire continents… the spice trace, the slave trade, the opium trade, the Empire’s organised theft of Africa, Malaysia, India, Australasia, America, Canada.

      And the number one family, doing the biggest amount of stashing, is the head of the UK State.

      The EU Tax Haven legislation insists that the accounts in tax havens, be identified, quantified, and the person responsible named…. I rather think India will be watching Very carefully, since up till now they’ve been told ‘sorry old boy, no can do reparations, its all gone, spent, disappeared’.

      Brexit is not a clusterburach. Brexit is a well planned, well orchestrated coup. In order for it to work, They need a No Deal outcome (their first choice), or a really shit Deal like Terrible Mays (which has managed the impossible by allowing British Courts jurisdiction over any trade disputes and therefore not the ECJ and therefore the Tax Haven Laws don’t come into pass in UK).

      In either case, there will be a significant amount of chaos, which will enable a State of Emergency to be invoked, under which ruse they will shut down Holyrood, lock out the SNP, and prevent any further legal means by which our elected reps can hold a referendum or election.

      There will be no clarity on Brexit, because to do so, will enable the First Minister to have to call Indy Ref 2, and almost as importantly, all the Remainers in England will have something concrete to push against.

      What looks like incompetence is actually well thought out tactics. Frog in warm water.

      You ask, ‘Again what evidence do you base the assertion that the Yes movement is not on board with the SNP’

      I didn’t,or I didn’t mean to, if anything my assertion is that the SNP is not reaching out and utilising the Yes Movement. The Yes Movement (even me, in my small way) are absolutely champing at the bit for the SNP to give us a sign.

      You say, ‘What benefit is there in posing the possibility that some in the SNP may have been got at. You would have to be a bit silly not to realise that is a possibility. You do not put out any new info so again what benefit is there in posting this dispiriting possibility.’

      Those who don’t study history are doomed to repeat it. Isn’t that the old saying. If members of the SNP are got at, there will never be evidence, nor should we look for it.

      But a safe thing to do, a safe way to counteract it, to make it difficult to thrive, an essential thing for us all to be allowed to do, is to have an environment where someone can legitimately suggest things, challenge things, ask things,

      Why don’t we do such and such. Why aren’t we doing such and such.

      And not be shot down in flames and accused of being a troll.

      You say, “a bit silly not to realise that (SNP being got at) is a possibility. You do not put out any new info so again what benefit is there in posting this dispiriting possibility.’

      I respectfully suggest that to put this out there and ask people to consider it as a real possibility, and then to suggest a means in which to counter it, is in fact new information, useful information, empowering information. That is what is intended, not to dispirit.

      Forewarned is forearmed.

      I’m going to continue to look at things askance, to put the other sides hat on and try and think what is motivating them, what are their tactics, what’s in it for them and how can they fuck us up.

      And when I’ve done that, I’m going to put my speculations, my thoughts, my concerns out here and ask people to think about it. My ideas may not be correct, or they may be worst case scenario.

      But if I’m right, and if you’ve thought about it here, then there is less chance of it taking the wind out of your sails at a later date, and there is still time to counteract it.

      Sorry for the long post. We shut down those we disagree with at our peril and make it easy for our enemies to hide.

      Yours in peace and hysteria

    270. Dr Jim says:

      @geeo 5:34pm

      One of these days Treeza’ll just lose the plot and scream *No surrender* at Ian Blackford and the SNP will chorus Ooooh!
      except for Mhairi Black who’ll do the central Scottish word that covers everything….


      For those who are unfamiliar with the word *sake* it may be preceeded by the phrases *for goodness* or *for God* or *for F..k* but these phrases in common parlance are generally silent as they are understood to have mentally been stated

    271. A C Bruce says:

      Like I said, hysterical.

    272. CameronB Brodie says:

      I don’t think you’d have commented in the manner you did, if you were antisemitic. My interpretation of an anti-Semite won’t satisfy all Jews though. This is an important and complicated issue that doesn’t only affect Jews. It also has relevance to Scotland’s circumstances, IMHO. I’ve chucked some links in OT.

    273. Dr Jim says:

      No soldiers can be deployed in Scotland without the consent of the Scottish government, it would be illegal

      Westminster won’t dare or be foolish enough to break the Union that way, it would be all over for them, Scotland isn’t the Northern Ireland province nor is it Churchill time again

    274. yesindyref2 says:

      Can anyone remember the name used by City Bankster when he used to post on The National a year or two back? I forget 🙁

    275. geeo says:

      @Dr Jim: *sake*…Genius !!!

    276. Gary45% says:

      CameronB Brodie@6.00
      I normally end conversations regarding the matter with, “not being Anti-Semitic” as I have been accused many times, by the simplest questioning of the treatment to the Palestinians, one day peace will come to the area, (hopefully in my lifetime) but who knows?

    277. Nana says:


      Latest Gordon Ross/indycar video

      Tories now join Labour pals in the centre of English politics, as both parties fracture over Europe.

      So UK government now represents far right whilst opposition, the far left.

      Nicola Sturgeon addresses the French National Assembly in Paris before opening another Scottish trade hub in the French capital.

    278. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Dr Jim @ 18:02,

      What with all those Henry VIII powers waiting in the wings for E(xit)-Day, I’m not sure we can afford to be sanguine about anything related. UKGov is currently like a cornered rat, and once unfettered will likely lose no opportunity in stifling Scottish opposition, because it’s such a threat to them.

      There may be many remaining uncertainties about Brexit, but that’s not one of them. We need to have at least started on our way out of this damned UK by then.

    279. Undeadshuan says:

      @CameronB Brodie

      I agree, some of the more impatient posters should read up Sun Zhu very wise words are in the art of war.

      Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent’s fate.

    280. Robert Peffers says:

      @sinky says:20 February, 2019 at 11:20 am:

      ” … However it makes a mockery of democracy if a new “grouping” can replace the SNP at HoC despite no member of public ever voting for the new “party”.”

      Sorry to tell you this, sinky, but legally no one votes for any party. They vote for the person. In the beginning the idea was that the country, (we are talking the country of England here as Westminster thinks itself as being the continued parliament of The Kingdom of England).

      The original idea of the English parliament was to divide the country into roughly equal, “constituent”, parts and for each, “constituent”, part elected a representative to send to represent them in the parliament. There were no political parties but the members soon formed cliques to benefit the members – not their voters.

      Political parties were not invented for the benefit of the electorate but for the elected. The original idea was supposed to be that there was no parties and the elected members should elect the government minister from among their number.

      As a matter of fact the term Prime Minister was meant as an insult as the Prime Minister is actually, “Her Majesty’s Prime Minister”, and the parliament was the people’s representatives taking sovereignty away from the sovereign monarchy. “The Glorious Revolution”, was the parliamentarians taking away the Sovereign’s sovereignty.

      Westminster has a very long history of changing the real meanings of words and then brainwashing the electorate to believe Westminster’s definition. A La how the Term United Kingdom doesn’t mean a bipartite United Kingdom but a quadratic union of four countries that form, “A Country”, with Westminster directly running only England and devolving England’s powers to three underling countries with England being the master race.

      Why so many scots cannot get their heads around that reality and continue to use Westminster’s obviously false terminology remains a mystery to me.

    281. yesindyref2 says:

      Nope, gone through my notes, can’t find it. Quite a few interesting and still relevvant bits though 🙂 Anyways, here’s this from them:

      Four and Twenty Unionists, went down to Westminster,
      and when the Union was over there were four and twenty less!

      Won’t be long now.

    282. Nana says:

      And the final piece of the jigsaw arrives. The Fib Dems have just offered an Electoral Pact with the new TINGE party. Blairites, Tories & Cleggites all in cahoots with each other.

    283. Undeadshuan says:


      David Miliband will return from usa to lead the party or group.
      Rumours are that vince cable is stepping down in june.

    284. Dr Jim says:

      Lib Dem party political broadcast with Jo Swinson standing at Bishopbriggs cross, I can tell you folks that’s a rare sight indeed, the only time you ever see that woman is her foty on a poster or leaflet, in person, not so much

      She claims in the PPB she wants her children to grow up well yet she doesn’t even live in Scotland and I doubt her children have ever been here at all

    285. CameronB Brodie says:

      I think I’ve kind of blown my cover and my form is now more apparent. Appearances can deceive though and form can become fluid. Be like water. 😉

    286. Robert Peffers says:

      @Sarah says: 20 February, 2019 at 11:43 am:

      ” … Further to Robert P’s latest comment above, where he mentions a petition – that reminded me that the MSP pointed out the mechanism available to us all is to petition Holyrood about any matter that concerns us.”

      Right on the button there, Sarah.

      Here is what it says on the Holyrood website @:-

      Any member of the public can submit a petition: there’s no age limit and no minimum number of signatures required.

      Click below for information on what you can petition about and how to submit a petition online.

      You can also search all current and past petitions to learn more about the issues that matter to the people of Scotland.

      Now what was it I’ve been saying on Wings about dripping against the SG on an open forum and how the FM, SG and SNP are easily accessible to any views and complaints?

    287. Dr Jim says:

      Water is hard yet can can fill a cup, bend like a reed in the wind

      We’re all at it now

    288. Dr Jim says:

      Robert Peffers is right, give the Unionists nothing but a solid united front to look at, it’s how you win

    289. mike cassidy says:

      Britain already disengaging from Europe as UK government pulls funding from unique European research institute

      “..this episode illustrates the way Brexit has increased the strength of the government. Outward appearances of the Conservatives in turmoil are deceptive because they mask the accumulation of legislative power granted under the EU Withdrawal Act. This law allows ministers to put in place regulations for the greater good of enacting EU withdrawal. And these regulations have wide-ranging implications and minimal scrutiny.”

    290. King Edward I of England was the first European monarch to expel the Jewish people from his nation,(12900

      first he publicly demonized them so as to get the unwashed masses on his side then he stole their property (to pay for his constant war making) and cancelled all debts held by Jews,

      then he threw them out,

      not to return for 366 years `till Cromwell overturned Edward I expulsion.

    291. sandycraig says:

      macart 5.29

      Excellent post. I have never knowingly disagreed with any of your posts over the years. Well thought out and I completely agree.

      If independence is achieved in 12 months great, if it takes a year or two yet still great, but I am positive it will come. It won’t make much difference to me at my age, but my children will reap the benefits of the future and that will do me.

      Listened to Mike Russell give an excellent talk on brexit in St Andrews last night. How it happened, where we are now, the cock ups by the UK negotiators etc. Answered questions for about a half hour. An honest appraisal of the situation by someone who is a skilled speaker.

    292. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Daisy Walker.

      Keep on keepin’ on! ((There’s a song there but it doesn’t really go with what’s being discussed.)

      Your comments are thought-provoking but some people on here can’t handle that.

      See you on 2nd March at Dows Bar?

    293. Sarah says:

      @Daisy Walker at 5.53: Thank you. You have written a reasoned comment in a commendably calm way.

      I am very disturbed seeing some of the reactions to your thoughts. Given the kind of negative and off-putting comments we have seen on here far too often, for far too long, I think to criticise folk who are real supporters of Scotland’s restoration as a nation, is wrong. [And some of it demeaning women, too.]

      It is legitimate to discuss the worries about what may be going on in the shadows. We have been informed on Wings btl about The Institute for Government and Integrity Initiative, hidden DUP-funders, expansion of UK Gov in Scotland Office, Cambridge Analytica-type activity, the 77th Brigade, Willie MacRae’s murder, the targeting of Alex Salmond. All those have been discussed at length. Did everyone “have some new information to add”? I don’t think so. So why not talk about fears of missing the boat or whatever, and consider what can be done in the event?

      I agree we are hearing powerful words from Ian Blackford. I like the sound of it and I trust him and Mike Russell and all the rest to do their best. But I am worried and disgusted at the lack of intelligence, decency, and democracy in the administration of all layers of governance under the control of Westminster and the parties which owe their allegiance to Westminster. They have the power and seemingly Scottish Government hasn’t. Scared? You bet I am.

    294. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      It has come to a sorry pass when the Herald and the Daily Mail share the same headline – as they did today.

    295. ronnie anderson says:

      Scottish liberal democrats PPB with cameo appearances from English MPs , whit a slap in fizzog for ACH & Murdo ach weil no everybody is photogenic

    296. mike cassidy says:

      sandycraig 6.56

      Any chance of you reading the post that was made this morning.

      (James Caithness 9.41)

      Cos it sure doesn’t reflect how you viewed Mike Russell’s talk.

    297. CameronB Brodie says:

      Dr Jim
      Just for you.

      Flow and Crash: The Philosophy of Bruce Lee

      Materialism and the Mind and Body Problem:
      A Critical Analysis

      Mind-body Dualism: A critique from a Health Perspective

    298. yesindyref2 says:

      @Daisy Walker / @Sarah
      Seems to me there are some who’d be happy with a return of Cromwell times and with the interrogations of anyone who holds different views, the Spanish Inquisition.

      And we all know what they say about THAT!

    299. A C Bruce says:

      “And some of it demeaning women” Utter nonsense. Hysteria is not only limited to women.

      Plenty of us have fears about what the British State/Westminster regime has in store for the population of these 4 countries after 29 March.

      We are all aware how malign that regime is and, if not, well we too have fertile imaginations.

      We just don’t spew our fears all over the page.

    300. yesindyref2 says:

      Brexit reminds me of the days with those big red buttons “Emergency Stop”, never used and never tested. Until decommissioning or line changes, when someone would say “Let’s see what happens, I’ve always wanted to push that”.

      Either nothing happens, the whole thing contines to work, or it blows up.

    301. Daisy Walker says:

      Thanks Brian,

      Can’t make the 2nd. Nice offer though.

      I’m washing my hysteria and brushing my fevered imagination.

      Dr Jim, re deployment of soldiers…

      I’m not sure what legislation there is, or would apply in the event of a State of Emergency, but I’m fairly sure (not 100%) that when it comes to Terrorism Legislation or Public Order Legislation – it is the Secretary of State (For Scotland) who signs off on any of the big stuff.

      Fluffy’s moment of glory.

      Thinking tactically – they could do it big, in a oner and ride out the indignation. Or do it gradually, so you don’t notice until its too late. Like Brexit.

      Peace (and an earful) to all.

      In a gentle way we can shake this world
      In a gentle way we can shake this world
      In a gentle way we can shape this world
      Yes we can, yes we can, yes we can

      With our heads, with our hearts, with our words, with our actions…
      And I think, and I love, and I am.

      You don’t walk through my head with dirty feet
      You don’t walk through my head with dirty feet
      You don’t walk through my head with dirty feet
      And I think, and I love, and I am

      And in a gentle way we can shake this world
      In a gentle way we can shake this world
      In a gentle way we can shape this world
      Yes we can, yes we can, yes we can

      With our heads, with our hearts, with our words, with our actions
      And I think, and I love, and I am

      No-one can hurt me, without my say
      No-one can hurt me, without my say
      No-one can hurt me, without my say
      And I think, and I love, and I am.

      Words Gandhi, Tune – Daisy Walker – Aug 2014

    302. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, how very British, stiff upper lip and all that jazz.

    303. mike cassidy says:


      A worthwhile read for those puzzled by Gavin Williamson shaking his dodgy aircraft carrier at China.

    304. Robert Peffers says:

      @CameronB Brodie says: 20 February, 2019 at 12:48 pm:

      ” … Parliamentary sovereignty was removed from British constitutional law in 1991, though it still appears to be in effect. That’s my reading of it anyway but I’m not a lawyer.”

      Neither am I a lawyer, CameronB, but that is the stated view and judgement of Lawyers and it is on record of being so. Furthermore, it is the stated decision of the ECJ. Now I’ve been preaching that Scottish Law says that the people of Scotland, not either the Queen of England nor her parliament at Westminster are sovereign since ever I came to comment on Wings.

      The point is that international law knows that Westminster is not sovereign and the fact that EU boats are fishing Scottish/UK waters today proves they know.

      It follows that all the EU needs to do to demolish the so called, “Bexit”, that is only actually the UK government, not Britain, wanting to leave the EU, is never going to happen.

      When push comes to shove all the EU needs to do is say that as the United Kingdom is exactly that, a united Kingdom of two kingdoms and one wants out while the other wants to stay then they decide to let the English Kingdom’s three countries leave with no deal but rule the other kingdom in the united Kingdom is the legacy member state and will, with a few adjustments in terms, be the continuing member state and wish the Kingdom of England well in its journey to where ever it was planning to go and the matter gives everyone exactly what they asked for.

      The EU membership remains 28 – Scotland remains in the EU, EU fishers remain fishing in Scots waters, the Kingdom of England gets out and is left with two rather disjaskit and disjeckit parts, (Wales & N.I.), and the rather troubled future of a possible loss of N.I. and Wales but we all, more or less, get what we voted for.

      Owersettin intil the Inglis:-

      disjaskit= adj. depressed, downcast, low spirited.

      disjeckit = adj dejected, despondent.

    305. Tinto Chiel says:

      “It has come to a sorry pass when the Herald and the Daily Mail share the same headline – as they did today.”

      @Dave McEwan Hill: the exact same thought occurred to me as I passed through my local mausoleum-like WH Smith, where copies of The National are routinely hidden under piles of unsold Britnat tabloids .

      There are obviously frayed nerves in the Yes movement in the present circumstances and I certainly have days when I shake my head and question some of the comments from independence supporters about the timing of Indyref2 and how to achieve it.

      However, three times now in the past month I have heard Ian Blackford say at PMQs that Scotland will not be dragged out of the EU, since we voted 62% to remain.

      Surely he would not have said anything so unequivocal if the SNP’s mandate were not going to be used at the right time?

    306. sandycraig says:

      mike cassidy 7.13

      I read that post this morning Mike.

      Maybe it all depends on what you went to hear or wanted to hear. I was completely neutral and was prepared to listen to what he said. His talk was never going to be about a tub thumping independence rally call, more an explanation of the facts, and I would rather have heard that than mibbees, suppositions, and downright untruths that come from many of the other opposition MSPs in Holyrood.

    307. yesindyref2 says:

      @mike cassidy
      I’m kind of resigned to my great great grand children if any speaking Chinese, but the Yanks under Trump aren’t!

    308. CameronB Brodie says:

      mike cassidy
      Not as up-to-date as yours. I’m not trying to show off btw, it’s just that I just can’t help myself. 🙂

      US–China relations and the liberal world order: contending elites, colliding visions?

      China’s Foreign Policy and Critical Theory of International Relations's_Foreign_Policy_and_Critical_Theory_of_International_Relations


    309. yesindyref2 says:

      @mike cassidy again
      People talk about trade wars, and restrictions on China, and quotas, and the EU has or used to have some quota on imports from China. What’s less obvious is that if China imposed a 0% quota on exports for a year there are several, perhaps many, economies would crash – including that of the UK.

    310. Robert Peffers says:

      @Daisy Walker says: 20 February, 2019 at 2:32 pm:

      ” … Mr Peffers will now come along and accused me of disloyalty – again.”

      Is that you feeling guilty – again.

    311. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’ve not read these btw, I just though they might be of interest.

      The Issue of Identity in the EU-China Relationship

      The politics of the EU: China’s relationship with Europe

      Post-Brexit EU/UK security cooperation: NATO, CSDP+, or ‘French connection’?

    312. The Statute of Jewry was a statute issued by Henry III of England in 1253.

      In response to anti semitic feelings in medieval England, it attempted to segregate the Jews, including imposing the wearing of a Jewish badge

      Article Nine commanded that “every Jew wear his badge conspicuously on his breast”.

    313. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      1970s Labour getting together to finally put England/Britain out of its misery.

    314. Petra says:

      Nicola Sturgeon:-

      ‘Striking how symbiotic the May/Corbyn relationship seems.”..


      ‘Nicola Sturgeon says she has democratic mandate for new independence referendum.’


      Joanna Cherry:-

      …”Hey guys we’ve not gone yet but we will be heading off soon, I hope #indyref2.”


      ”Good to hear @theresa_may acknowledge at #PMQs that revoking #Art50 & staying in #EU is possible.”…

    315. Macart says:


      The YES movement is huge. Hell, the SNP are a fairly sizable entity themselves these days. 😀

      How and ever, you get half a dozen reasonably like minded folk in a room and give them one objective? Like as not you’ll get half a dozen ideas of how to achieve that objective.

      Most folk on these sites want independence, and most would say they want it yesterday (if not sooner). Not all are SNP members. Not all are political anoraks. Not all enjoy or trust politics, or indeed understand political strategy (for good reason tbf). They come from all walks of life, all political persuasions and none.

      Folk are afraid, unsure, frustrated and angry right now. They have reason to be. There’s a great deal at stake for everyone. Opinions will vary and tempers will fray. It’s very human and VERY understandable. (Keep it to yourself, but I’m a tad on the nervous side masel’ about now.) 😎

      I’m not the religious type you understand and never have been, but there’s one wee piece of prose that always struck a chord with me for some reason.

      God grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change, the courage to change the things we can,
      and the wisdom to know the difference.

      I’ll focus on the things I can change. Put a few pennies to worthy causes. Food into food banks and clothes into charities. That and I’ll talk the hind end off a horse when trying to convince folk to ditch the howf on the Thames. 🙂

    316. Cubby says:


      Not one of your better posts. If you post on Wings expect people to comment. Daisy Walker seems to me to be well able to hold her own.

    317. Daisy Walker says:

      Dear Mr Peffers – I’m not ashamed, nor do I feel I have anything to feel guilty about with regards my conduct on this site, or within the yes movement at large.

      My commitment to Scotland gaining her independence is just as strong as yours – I will not be censored by intolerant people who are not willing to think outside the box and prepare for worst case scenarios – and you cannot prepare for them, if no-one is allowed to discuss the possibility of their very existence.

      I do not agree with everything you say – I do not attempt to shut you up about it.

      You disagree with things I say – you try to shut me (and many others) up and accuse me of disloyalty.

      Just like the labour party of old. And look how that turned out.

      The SNP is doing and has done fantastic things – but there are other things that need doing and if it is the Yes Movement that is to cover that ground, it badly needs a nod of encouragement, a wink, a sign, a starting pistol, a letter, a clue, a blue moon and a solar eclipse – from the SNP to do it, or even just a simple request from the leadership of the SNP.

      Deeply committed, people in the Yes Movement are expressing this, reluctantly and with deep concern, we surely have enough overlap that discrete communications can be done and this void filled.

      Its now 38 days till Brexit, 5 and 1/2 weeks. Realistically there is not the time to convene any form of Referendum now before Brexit day.

      And, correct me if I’m wrong here, but re a snap GE, does it not require a minimum of 7 or was it 6 weeks for parliament to be prorogue. So, we are out of EU before the next GE.

      We lose powerful protections once we are out of the EU – which makes it unlikely there will be a transition period (in addition to the tax haven laws).

      So, facing facts – for those who hoped (and I was one) that before Brexit day, there would be Indy Ref2, and/or Peoples Vote, and / or Snap GE and/or some form of legal challenge by ScotGov re Scotlands Sovereignty – guess what, none of those things are coming to our rescue before Brexit hits.

      We can now hope for a S50 extension – or a Brexit cancelation – both of which rely on a majority vote of English MP’s in WM.

      If a State of Emergency is invoked by WM, Holyrood will be closed, in all but name. Power over Everything will be routed through WM. Any potential to argue the legal case about Scotland’s Sovereignty, to argue her right to hold a consultative Referendum with or without S30 approval – the governmental levers of power to do either of those things – will not be physically possible, as the Scot Gov is locked out.

      Sites such as this one will be locked down under the National Security legislation that was passed by WM several years ago – by Terrible May.

      I stood at the parades of remembrance on 11/11/18 and I looked and I looked at the well fed, well clad, well healed, faces of Conservative Auchterarder as they sang their hymes, and hung the Union Jack, and hid the saltire, piously saying ‘lest we forget’…. and I thought then, what I think now – they’d do it all again in a heartbeat, and for the same establishment families to get rich on the back of it.

      I have met no former No voters expressing optimistic, cheery thoughts about Brexit – there is and there has been no good news about Brexit, I struggle to see how much more ‘clarity’ there can be on the subject. And I certainly see no need for the BritNat establishment to be in any kind of hurry to provide it.

      ScotGov have confirmed they are engaged in emergency planning. As is proper.

      The Yes Movement should consider doing the same.

      Will you and your family have enough food, water, fuel ?

      Are there lines of communication that can exist outwith internet and telecoms?

      Are there means of distributing facts to the general public – against the wishes of the establishment?

      Can peaceful gathering be arranged at short notice if the need arises.

      Are people savy enough that if they are peacefully protesting – they realise they will be infiltrated by agitators – and they need to practice – the sit down and point them out – method to counteract this, in addition to camera phones on record at all times.

      Then its to the internet – such footage would need to reach America, Canada, Australia, Europe – we do have friends.

      Hope for the Best, prepare for the worst – and if your going to prepare for the worst – you have to look at it.

    318. SilverDarling says:

      Can I ask why voicing anxiety about our imminent future is deemed hysterical?

      ‘Hysterical’ is indeed a well known put down directed at women to diminish their fears and worries no matter how legitimate. Hysteria from ‘hystera’ (womb) was a historical term used to describe what was thought to be solely women’s anxiety reactions. It has a slightly different meaning in medicine nowadays but is still one of those words many women are quite sensitive to as a criticism.

      Posters are often pulled up on this site for what others deem inaccurate or imprecise terms. I remember seeing people repeatedly abused for using the term Brexit and even rUK. On this occasion, it seems fair to bristle a bit about being called hysterical.

      It is reasonable to be voicing legitimate fears about the biggest crisis facing us politically and socially in most of our lifetimes. It is also reasonable to ask of those in charge what they will do about it when no action seems forthcoming.

    319. Sarah says:

      @Daisy Walker – re that building in Perth – see Off Topic in a minute!

    320. CameronB Brodie says:

      Right-wing coups are stressful events. 😉

      Mental And Emotional Impact Of Stress

      Researchers in the field of psychoneuroimmunology (PNI) study the ways in which the immune system and the nervous system communicate with each other and impact people’s mental and emotional health. Even though the field is relatively new, many studies have been designed to examine the influence of immune and nervous systems on the psychological consequences of stress. PNI research suggests that chronic stress can lead to or exacerbate mood disorders such as depression and anxiety, bipolar disorder, cognitive (thinking) problems, personality changes, and problem behaviors….

      3 Ways to Better Understand Your Emotions

      5 Ways to Cope with Emotional Stress

    321. SilverDarling says:

      @Cameron B Brodie

      The 4-7-8 breathing technique is often advisable before reading some posts on here!

    322. jfngw says:

      I hear there was nearly a Scottish MP that was going to resign from the Tories, turns out he thought the new group had called themselves The Independent Grope.

    323. A C Bruce says:

      “Can I asky why voicing anxiety about our imminent future is deemed hysterical?”

      Because the diatribes are like uncontrolled diarrhoea skittering across the page.

    324. SilverDarling says:

      @A C Bruce

      A really unpleasant and inappropriate comment.

    325. Dr Jim says:

      @Cameron B Brodie

      You’ll probably not be a little surprised that I posses all of Bruce Lee’s writings and all his training manuals prized amongst my many different martial arts manuals of all types going back thousands of years (that’s the books not me)

      From the age of around 12 years I studied every form I could find until I became more than proficient to competition level in most then stopped suddenly and never practised or taught again and to this day I still don’t know why, maybe I knew that when I got to the age I am now most of my bones wouldn’t work very well, because they don’t, so I was right coz I creak when I walk now

      I did learn the most effective form of self defence ever devised though and it applies to all of us in Scotland

      *Not to be there*

    326. jezza says:

      Re: Brexit

      I’d say about 90% of Scots still think we are only going on a wee bus run to Saltcoats on 29th March.

      The ignorance within the Scottish public is frightening.

      And when you mention IndyRef2 to them, that glazed looked descends over their eyes.

      FFS wakey wskey Scotland,,,Brexit is nearly upon us.

    327. A C Bruce says:

      Appropriate and measured.

      Directed at comments designed to instil fear and which serve no other useful purpose.

    328. galamcennalath says:

      CameronB Brodie says:

      Ways to Cope with Emotional Stress

      My favoured stress release is chopping logs with a nice sharp axe!

      Exercise, fresh air, a useful product, and harmless violence!

    329. Macart says:


      *same* 🙂

    330. Hamish100 says:

      further to Mp’s deserting Labour. Looks like one has more than a passing interest in things other than their own constituency. Surely we don’t have such people in Holyrood???

      Reelected Labour MP 2015–2019
      In August 2015, Ryan became Chair of the Labour Friends of Israel. In the 2015 Labour leadership election campaign, she urged those voting to choose a candidate who in government could “play a constructive and engaged role in the crucial search for a” two-state solution to resolve the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. In particular, she noted the “deep concerns” that she said arose from the positions Jeremy Corbyn had taken in the past and the “serious questions which arise from these”.[34] In 2016, Ryan was secretly filmed discussing receipt of a payment of £1,000,000 from Shai Masot, Senior Political Officer at the Israeli Embassy in London.[35]

      During the 2017 general election campaign, Ryan urged constituents in her election literature to vote for her because she was “independent-minded” in the context of the perceived unpopularity of Jeremy Corbyn.[36] She wrote in her election letter that constituents she had spoken to had more faith in Theresa May as PM, than in Corbyn as May’s potential successor.

    331. galamcennalath says:

      jezza says:

      90% of Scots still think we are only going on a wee bus run to Saltcoats on 29th March

      Indeed. Perhaps not 90% … but who knows!

      Brexit will vary from bad to absolute social and economic carnage – many Scots haven’t accepted that, yet.

      There hasn’t been a strong enough Indy campaign for many Scots to realise that’s the best solution, yet.

      There probably has to be a wee bit of a shock to get some folks out of the comfort zone and ripe for voting YES.

    332. SilverDarling says:

      @A C Bruce

      Are only comments that promote positives about the present and future allowed here, whether they have any basis in reality or not?

      Isn’t that verging on propaganda?

      Are you worried that your vision of the future is being undermined by realists who dare to admit to worrying?

      Try some meditation or just scroll on by.

    333. Dr Jim says:


      When a people have lived as indentured servants for a long time they expect their masters to always be in charge and the offer of freedom can be hostilely rejected on the basis of the fear of self

      An animal with all its life spent in a zoo doesn’t expect freedom and doesn’t understand what to do with it if it gets it

    334. Daisy Walker says:

      @ SilverDarling

      Thank you. And to others who have been supportive and/or constructive in their comments to me or about me.

      AC Bruce – my comments ‘designed to instil fear and serve no other useful purpose’

      Brexit is coming – if you’re not afraid, you haven’t been paying attention.

      If you disagree, please, please scroll on by, I certainly don’t want to waste your time or energy arguing. Other people can and will make up their own minds – I trust them enough to do that, do you?

    335. CameronB Brodie says:

      Dr Jim
      Wow. I thought you were clued-up on BL but I never imagined that. So was I able to sell you the idea of looking at the other links?

    336. SilverDarling says:

      @Daisy Walker

      No worries.

      I changed my email and hence my username and haven’t posted for a very long time. It is still as much of a bearpit as before! Take care.

    337. A C Bruce says:

      Oh, I’m very well aware of what’s coming.

      You’re by no means the only one who reads about, and understands, the implications of the increased orders of the Met’s rubber bullets, Fluffy’s new accommodations, the call up of army reservists, etc., etc.

      I’m well aware it’s not going to be pretty.

    338. galamcennalath says:

      Corbyn … “Labour respects the result of the referendum, but we do not support the prime minister’s damaging approach, which is focused more on appeasing factions of her party than finding a sensible solution that works for the whole country.”

      His country is clearly not my country. Scotland doesn’t want ANY Brexit.

    339. jezza says:

      Re the ignorance of Scots towards Brexit.

      Maybe the shock of it all will be enough to awaken a very sound asleep giant.

      Wakey wakey Scotland,,,and the soap opera brigade just couldn’t give two hoots about Brexit or any other political conundrums.

      Sad but true.

    340. A. Bruce says:

      AC Bruce@ 7:20pm

      Daisy is right on the button; have you never heard of
      ‘forewarned is forearmed’? What she has to say is not “spewing our fears”; Daisy stating very real possible outcomes is not going to turn us into wee quaking timorous beasties.

    341. yesindyref2 says:

      Directed at comments designed to instil fear and which serve no other useful purpose.


      Not one of your better posts.

      Also reflexive. But quite common.

    342. Cubby says:

      Daisy Walker@ 5.53pm

      Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. As is usual it was an interesting read. In fact I read it twice to make sure I read it correctly. For the sake of clarity it was not my intention to close you down in asking my questions. If you don’t want me to comment on your posts in future you just have to say and I will oblige.

      Anyway back to the points at hand.

      1. “I am certain there will be no clarity on Brexit because”. –

      you make a lot of points to reinforce this statement all of which I have heard previously. The main thrust of your argument is that no clarity means no indyref2 and the UK government will continue forever to postpone UK exit. Surely there must eventually be some clarity at some point – it cannot go on indefinitely in some sort of permanent never ending UK exit limbo land. I personally (even though May hardly ever sticks to her word) think May will stick to the 29th March exit date but I am not certain of that.

      In summary you make a lot of points but I am not convinced that you have made a case that justifies your statement of certainty. Possibility yes certainty no.

      2. The SNP being got at.

      In your reply you comment about not being shot down as a troll. Not me never said you were a troll. Just putting my points to you to reflect on and that you have done. In your reply you indicate that there is an approach /new way of dealing with this possibility in your original post. I also went back and read the original post and sorry I just don’t see it. Empowering information – sorry don’t see it. It is nothing new to recognise the British Nationalists as having and using a whole range of nasty and dirty tricks to safeguard their interests. If people on Wings are not aware of this already then what are they reading on Wings.

      I cannot see how you are thinking I am trying to shut you down because I don’t agree with everything you posted. Indeed I asked you to elaborate to see if I could understand your points better and that you did. Thank you.

    343. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Daisy Walker at 9.31

      Just ignore him. I do

    344. yesindyref2 says:


      stress: “pressure or tension exerted on a material object

      sounds like a good way of dealing with a state of mental or emotional strain or tension resulting from adverse or demanding circumstances.

      Doing a bit of hoovering can be good for that, Freddie Mercury had the right idea!

    345. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Daisy Walker
      Should be “at 9.07”

    346. Cubby says:


      Not one of your better posts.

      Dam I guess that was my reflexive muscle again.

    347. yesindyref2 says:

      With all the frustrated literary critics, nobody expects Fahrenheit 451! Not sure if it works with electrons all the same.

    348. Dr Jim says:

      Even if folk think they’re not all that political there’s one question that should make any doubters of Scottish Independence think again

      Why did the Westminster government who are never done boasting about their prowess in wars locate their most powerful devastating weapons of mass distruction in the heart of Scotlands most densely populated area instead of their own proud seafaring powerful warlike country

      Why Scotland?

      And it’s not the shit deep water answer

      WMDs make countries a target, Sir Michael Fallon said so on a visit to Scotland when he talked to Bernard Ponsonby about North Korea then suddenly reasised what he’d said and an aid helped him run away from Bernards questioning

      Trident is located in Scotland because if there’s a war Scotlands people are expendable because there are only 5.4 million of us, it’s that simple

      Scotlands people are expendable Englands people are not, is that not reason enough

      F their economic argument, F their broad shoulders, F their better together, F their lies,

      They don’t care if we die

    349. Petra says:

      @ Dr Jim says at 1:36am … ”Trident is located in Scotland because if there’s a war Scotlands people are expendable because there are only 5.4 million of us, it’s that simple. Scotlands people are expendable Englands people are not, is that not reason enough?”

      More than anything I don’t think they really like us Dr Jim. All 5.4 million of us, lol.


      I don’t know if this has been posted already? … but I’ve just noticed that the secret Brexit deal made between the Tories and Nissan amounted to £60 million. Amazing how the Tories can conjure up dough when it suits them, such as the £1 billion bung to the DUP and £60 million to the Japanese.

      ..”As Nissan make a U-turn and say sayonara to building the X-trail in Sunderland, the Government is left deeply embarrassed. This Brexit bribe has come back to bite the Government.”

      ‘Business Secretary Greg Clark made the deal with Nissan, but a letter spelling out the arrangement was never made public until today.”..

    350. Dr Jim says:


      I believe they only gave Nissan a down payment the rest to be paid when Nissan delivered on a promise to remain in the UK but Nissan have said no so it looks highly likely Nissan will only wait until *the terms of the Brexit deal become clear* in the words of our FM, and if they don’t like it they’ll be off

      I’d put money on Toyota doing the same thing since Japan have signed a multi million £ deal with the EU and the Japanese being the honourable people they are will honour their signed agreement with the EU before they do any shady *whisper whisper* deals with the UK

      I don’t believe it’ll finish there either, remember, Vauxhall are French owned by Peugeot now so if they think France is going to take a hit they could well move their business out too

      The Brits like to talk about the UK car industry when the fact is there is no UK car industry it’s all overseas car industry with some assembly outlets in the UK

      A bit like Ikea really, I’m being sarcastic of course but that’s pretty much the case

    351. Nana says:


      Scotland’s first minister underlined her personal commitment to developing the role of the third sector in Scottish society in her annual address at the Gathering.

    352. Nana says:

      Revealed: The Queen appeals Scottish tax bill for Balmoral

      HELP SAVE LOCH LOMOND – Say no to Flamingo Land in Balloch

      Yet another Home Office blunder

    353. Nana says:

      UK and Ireland retailers warn of 40% tariffs on food in no-deal Brexit
      What are Brexit contingency plans for pharmaceutical industry?

      A smart new amendment looking to guarantee citizens’ rights even in the event of no-deal is doing the rounds in Westminster. It’s picking up support from across the Tory party – from ERG types to the moderate wing, making it highly likely to pass. It’s a skillful bit of legislative footwork.

    354. yesindyref2 says:

      It’s very nice of the Queen to complain she’s not paying enough and should be paying 10 times as much.

      At least I guess that’s what it’s all about?

    355. Nana says:

      The UK’s former ambassador to the EU has warned that attitude towards Brexit in European capitals have hardened “quite markedly” in the last two or three weeks.

      Since everyone is just waking up to the practice of citizenship stripping after the case of #ShaminaBegum, let me take you on a little tour…

    356. Nana says:

      Morning yesindyref2

      Your guess is as good as mine. Money matters is not my strong point, but I can sure spend it quickly enough (just ask hubby) 🙂

      more links

      PeteWishart didn’t hold back, slamming the false binary choice between Theresa May’s deal or no deal.

    357. Dorothy Devine says:

      Morning Nana, nice to know the queen pays less for her vast Scottish estate than a small business pays in Glasgow.

      As for slimeball Hunt , well done Germany! Hunt saying that history will be puzzled by the EU not working out a solution for the backstop just goes to show his arrogant ignorance.

      I get hopping mad on a daily basis these days as I see Westminster having the temerity to make demands which have already been dismissed in no uncertain terms.

      Why anyone in the EU wants anything to do with them is a real puzzle.

    358. Nana says:

      Me too Dorothy, hopping mad with a permanent frown 🙁

    359. yesindyref2 says:

      Sorry, I was being a bit deadpan 🙂

      With all that money, millions for a wedding, imagine complaining about a total sporting estate rates bill of £16,800. I’m not a republican, more an agnostic, but that disgusts me.

    360. Undeadshaun says:

      The UK is starting to resemble the end and breakup of the USSR.

      We may well have another way to end the treaty of union in the chaos which will ensue.

      Just like parts of the USsR pealed off to become independent States!

    361. Nana says:


      This is not the first time Queenie has not wanted to pay her way

      see here

      The royal scroungers disgust me too.

    362. yesindyref2 says:

      You really are a compendium of links and information, an encyclopedia galactica!

      Jings, she direclty wanted to take money earmarked for those in fuel poverty.

      Well, as RP and all of us would say, she’s Queen at our whim. Time to change the whim. Personally I’d go for King Frankie (Boyle).

    363. ScottieDog says:

      If you read Andy Wightman’s book you see how active the royals were in dodging tax in the past,
      I’m very much a republican

    364. Clootie says:

      I am a republican. I cannot begin to understand the arguement that a person can be born superior to another. The vast wealth of the Royal Family is hidden by an army of officials. A private army who answer to no one.

      The tax row is only the tip of the iceberg. We have an elite group living an obscene lavish lifestyle while people starve. One example being that the Queen owns the majority of Leonardo Da Vinci sketches and drawings in existence. How was that paid for? Why is this display of wealth not attracting questions regarding income and taxation.

      The wealth is in Billions yet the state picks up any bills.

      Can somebody explain to me how a person can be born to such extreme levels of wealth and power and remain above challenge as regards the accountability of fair burden.

      I find it sickening that one person could solve major problems in society by the simple act of selling a faberge egg, a Leonardo sketch or a gold piano. How many of you dig into your own meagre funds to contribute to a Foodbank.

      I look forward to any attempt to justify this situation of elitism.

    365. yesindyref2 says:

      I wonder if they do the Self Assessment (Online) every year?

    366. Capella says:

      @ Nana – thx again for all the links! The Ballot Box Scotland is interesting, I haven’t come across it before. Alan Faulds says he is a Green activist but if he provides more numbers to contemplate so much the better.

    367. Nana says:

      Fitch may cut UK’s ‘AA’ rating on Brexit uncertainty

      Not sure what this is about as I’m about to go out and don’t have time to research, but anyway might be worth a watch

      The UK Prime Minister @theresa_may is summoned to court today, 21st Feb 2019. Time estimate lies at 1/2 day.
      link here

      That’s all for now

    368. Nana says:

      Morning Capella, I don’t recall coming across the site before now but thought it worth linking to.

      The clever folk here on wings who know about ‘number stuff’ will I am sure check it out.

    369. Bill Cochrane says:

      Clootie @8:50

      Well said Clootie. I have held those exact views all my life. You won’t find me standing when GSTQ gets played. ?

    370. Legerwood says:

      Clootie at 8:50 am

      The Leonardo da Vinci drawings were bought by Charles II in the 17th Century.

      They are part of what is known as the Royal Collection and the whole lot belongs to us, the people, NOT the Royal Family. This was confirmed at the time of the Windsor Castle fire30-40 years ago.

    371. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Clootie at 8.50
      I believe a significant and growing majority of the people of Scotland are republican. I would widen my concern to the non elected lords and the like who have assumptive ownership of vast tracts of Scotland without any defined legal right to most of it.
      They mostly just seized it or stole in by one means or another(or got it given to them by services to our royalty in the early middle ages).

      The sooner we introduce a land tax or an average ground rent the quicker they will divest themselves of it.
      The first founding principle in any Scottish constitution would say something like “The land and the waters of the nation of Scotland belong to the nation and the people of Scotland and are held in trust by the parliament of Scotland. The use of the land will be determined at all times by its use the public good” or similar.

    372. Iain.mhor says:

      Catching up and decided to steer away from Brexit and address some posts about Independence and Scotlands historic rights to be perceived as a Nation State.

      There is a wealth of legal commentary advocating the position that Scotland as a nation state was extinguished by the ‘Union’ and England also. Within that cabal there is a mind who suggest England was not extinguished but became the continuator state, absorbed the others and changed its name. There is a dearth of opposing legal rebuttals, though they do exist, but they are, in all things Scottish vs the Union, the minority voice.

      The idea that the constitutional issues anent the two Kingdoms is black and white and therefore easily resolved by an imaginary international interlocuter or ‘supreme’ court, is I suggest somewhat naive. They are reasonably clear enough to many honest commenters here, including myself, and we imagine we may make a fair fist of the argument. We are not the first to believe that and of the legal profession too – yet here we are, the minority view and subordinate to claims Scotland is no more than a parish council.

      The relationship, politics and constitutional mess which is the UK, is so very far from logic, that any ‘International’ decision will be formed by best guess and opinion. That opinion will be shaped by who carries the biggest stick, who shouts loudest and the vested interests of international politics (see Spain) That is to say, any decision will be ‘arbitary’ if it is even accepted as within its remit and will be considered as a binding international agreement; to be cast up the same centuries later as Declarations, Claims of Right, Treaties and Acts, or any other derelict parchments. A gamble which has greater than even chance of condemming Scotland to death for aeons.

      Scotland has a very good reason not to be anywhere near “neutral’ arbiters deciding on its Nation Status and certainly not a ‘Supreme’ court which is Westminsters animal. Doing that got us into this nonsense in the first place; or does anyone need to look up the old canard instigated by the Malleus Scotorum himself and his claims of suzerainty?

      My point being that Scotland need look to no friendly allies or courts of law, it has to stand in its own feet and take its Independence. It is not in the gift of Westminster nor the ECJ nor any other actor – that way lies Kingmaking and Suzerainty claims. Freedom isn’t given it is taken. There is no requirement for laws and courts and agreements, they are the principles and legal arguments which become involved after the fact, to ‘lay claim’ to ‘pronounce’, to ‘declare’ and invite recognition or be damned. The tail does not wag the dog.

      The issue then being fait-accompli is, if not de-jure, certainly de-facto. Which makes international decisions so very much easier to make when invited to ratify them. As the entire of European nation state histories will inform.
      Independence – take it, don’t ask for it.

    373. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Clootie: well said. Once we are independent, I hope the Scottish people reassess their relationship with a Queen of Scots who has never shown the least desire to act in our best interests.

      AS DMH says, the obscenely rich are just Robber Barons (an old term but still useful) who stole from the rest of us on a massive scale over a very long period.

      Incidentally, some of the Leonardo Da Vinci drawings mentioned by Legerwood were on display in Kelvingrove Art Gallery and Museum a couple of weeks ago and more are on display in other parts of the UK.

      Since we are well off topic, notice the rise in sectarian abuse heaped on certain managers and players recently (including last night). A cynic might attribute this to the repeal of the Offensive Behaviour at Football Act.

      Step forward and tell me I’m wrong, James Kelly MSP, if you can summon the vocabulary.

    374. geeo says:

      Back on the ‘gibbering pish’ with that post, Ian Mhor, sorry, but come on eh !

      So international law is also “biggest country wins” then ?

      Absolute nonsense, and a complete mis-representation of how the law courts work. Those with indisputable evidence win cases.

      The Claim of Right, Treaty of Union, and contents of the documents within, are internationally and domestically recognised in international and domestic law.

      As such, an international court can ONLY rule with Scotland when /if asked to recognise the Scottish case/argument as viable and valid in law.

      Recourse to international courts could arguably be considered as our ‘backstop’ position should WM try obfuscate over a referendum/S.30

    375. Baldeagle58 says:

      Morning Nana.

      My, you’ve been busy with all these Links this morning.
      Much appreciated, as always.

      Hope you’re keeping well. 🙂

    376. mike cassidy says:

      How far would you go in an independent Scotland to encourage the wildlife.

    377. Clootie says:

      To those who argue that the property held by the Royals belongs to us would you like to bet that on declaration of a republic it all ended up in a Swiss vault.
      If it belongs to “us” then we should sell it and improve society now. It is an insult to my intelligence to suggest it belongs to us.
      Who benefits from the Balmoral shooting estate? Do we all get to visit. You cannot even canoe down the river because of suspended “security apparatus”.
      If you get a car or free medical cover the inland revenue will class it as a benefit in kind. The entire extended Royal entourage have free houses, cars, flights, holidays etc etc.

      Glasgow had to sell OUR assets to pay woman what they were due but “our” assets held by the Royals will just sit there while people stand in the queue at the Foodbank.
      What is the point of decades of acquisition of STUFF that is never to be used. Sell it to museums that way more people see it and the released wealth can be used.

      I’ll shut up now because if you cannot see this affront to decency then I’m wasting my time.

    378. mike cassidy says:

      Don’t forget the queen has previous regarding tax dodging.

    379. Effijy says:

      James Kelly, failed Labour Accounting Unit MSP
      has spoken out about the 8 real London Labour MPs
      Leaving the party”

      “He would sack the pair of them” ?

    380. yesindyref2 says:

      Your keyboard appears to have developed a fault, or a microcode malware, where it replaces “I disagree with your posting” with “gibbering pish”. All is not lost, however, you can easily get a replacement keyboard to brighten the day.

      I quite like number 9 on the first page! But 5 on the next page is quite cool.

    381. Abulhaq says:

      The SNP, if it remains at Westminster, must not entertain any ideas of cooperating with the new unionist clique currently in formation there.

    382. geeo says:


      Don’t worry, Ian mhor knows it is a wee ‘in joke’ between us, it is more a term of endearment.

      I dont agree with his post at all, but calling it ‘gibbering pish’ is not intended as being nasty towards him in any way. (Goes way back to a previous post, which maybe was GP).

      I doubt Ian will take offense.

    383. yesindyref2 says:


      I like the keyboards all the same 🙂

    384. geeo says:


      Keyboards were mostly cracking, although thon vertical foldy !!

      No.7 was favourite for me, as i only use my phone rather than computer, would be handy for doing what i am doing right now, save a lot on fat finger typos !!!

      Also liked the No.9 one, combine that with no.7 and we have a winner.

    385. Bobp says:

      Just back from visiting family and my old mum in Scotland. Met a few of the locals when out and about. Came across a few who couldn’t stand yon ‘nicola sturgeon “. When I asked them,(in a soft manner) why’s that then, what has she done that’s so bad. They stopped ranting,stared at me like I had 2 heads, and said. Jeest because! Wha’s like them?eh.

    386. mike cassidy says:

      I want a steampunk keyboard.

      And I’m copyrighting that name for the band I will get round to forming one of these days.

    387. Daisy Walker says:

      @ Cubby at 11.39pm

      You didn’t try and shut me down Cubby, you were very polite and made your points of disagreement with me very politely – which is appreciated. Others were not so.

      I don’t think I can explain the same ground any better than I already have, so I think we’ll have to agree to disagree if that’s OK.

      Kind regards to all.

    388. Dr Jim says:

      @Bobp 11:23am

      Scotland used to be full of politician haters of all parties *just because* but those same people who used to hate all politicians seem to like the ones they used to hate now and are convinced all the problems lie with the SNP who weren’t around in any meaningful way when the problems that were caused by the other bad politicians were created

      Those people are by and large always Unionists and it makes you wonder if they remember running from the cinema at the end of the film to avoid standing for the British National anthem leaving only a very very few in the building, now they seem to love the thing they all used to run away from and blamed for all their ills

      The Politicians who Unionists never trusted before have told the Unionists that the SNP are bad and they believe them

      Says a lot about the judgement of Unionists, and of course the extent and depth of their collective goldfish memory

    389. Undeadshaun says:

      77th brigade account hacked, by ‘boredbloke’

    390. Bobp says:

      Dr Jim, my thoughts exactly.

    391. jezza says:

      Tried viewing FMQs,,,FFS that id a hard watch.

      I thought it couldn’t get any worse than the beetroot wine drinkers face of Jackson Carlow but then up popped Corbyn’s plant in the Scottish Parliament Dick something.

      I didn’t even give him the time to ask his first question before he was turned off.

      Absolutely diabolical.

      I don’t know if it’s his accent, but that Dick guy cones across as a total wanker.

      And a sure fire vote winner for IndyRef2 is for an Englishman to stand up in the Scottish Parliament and tell you that you will not become an independent nation.

    392. Dan says:

      @ Dave McEwan Hill

      I attended a talk last year given by Graeme McCormick on Annual Ground Rent.
      I thought it was a very interesting discussion on how revenue could be raised with a change in the taxation system.
      Aye, there’s no doubt it is a significantly different plan from the current systems we have in place. However, what we have now appears to allow so many different ways of avoiding paying tax it is a joke.

      I understand his initial AGR idea has evolved over time, so a lot of what is on the net when you search does not include the later aspects he has incorporated into the plan.

      Folk reading this might consider asking him to come along to give a talk in their areas and hear it first hand.

    393. Cubby says:

      Daisy Walker@11.29am

      Daisy, no problem. We can agree to disagree. We will see how things pan out over the next few months and that will give us a better of idea of whether the SNP is led by Bruce minded characters or just a bunch of not so bonnie Charlie’s who may have been got at by the Britnats.

      “Others were not so”. I agree. A small point I would make is that when posting a reply to two others in the same post it can create a mixed up understanding of who you are referring to. I didn’t think it was clear in your original reply post if some of your comments were directed at both posters or just one of the posters. I think your last post clarified that. I am my own person and others in the past have tried to conflate me with other posters.

    394. Cubby says:


      “Absolutely diabolical”. I agree that FM questions is diabolical. What is also diabolical is your continual anti English comments. You seem to be doing your best to confirm that independence supporters are all English haters. Do you think anti English comments help the Yes movement?

      Why don’t you just give it a rest.

      You can reply with your usual foul mouthed tirade if you want but any type of racism is not acceptable.

    395. Gfaetheblock says:

      I see the Independent Group’s twitter followers total is at 160k in 4 days, nearly catching up on the SNP’s (218k).

      The Lib Dem’s are open to working with them, any word from Blackford or Sturgeon yet? If preventing Scotland leaving EU is the mission, they need to be engaging now.

    396. Gary45% says:

      Aye, he had to take his shoes off to count.

    397. Dr Jim says:

      Toodle oo the Noo and his journalistic chums congratulating Jackson Carlaw and Richard Leonard on their questioning of the FM this morning at FMQs, and it’s as if FMQs really doesn’t need to take place at all now because Toodle oo and chums representations of what actually happens on these occasions bears little resemblance to the facts

      It’s a bit like watching an Avengers movie where our hero’s defeat the bad guys but when you emerge from the cinema Bryan Taylor’s outside to tell you that Thor and Iron Man didn’t win and that Scarlett Johannson wasn’t particularly attractive in it (and up with that I will not put) especially the Scarlett thing (even though she wasn’t at FMQs, but still!)

      The BBC are not a joke anymore they’re an outright opponent of Scotlands SNP and they’re not even hiding it

      In England all the talk is about the Prime Minister Theresa May and no matter what she does the deference and respect is always there regarding her position as PM yet in Scotland all the talk is about the opposition to the First Minister with no deference or respect shown to her positon at all

      No doubt the BBC would deny this or conclude it was a mistake and say so (incredibly quietly) on their website months after any instance of this behaviour was misreported

      Ask anybody what they think of North Korea and the reply will likely be something like *Ooh terrible man that Kim thingy guy eh ooh* then ask them how they *know* that

      Kim thingy might be a great guy for all we *know* but we only *know* what the BBC and media tells us we *know* and if the reliability of their reporting is as good as it is on Scotland, Kim thingy and North Korea might me worth a look as a holiday destination for a knees up

      I’m exaggerating for effect of course but I bet you get the point

    398. jezza says:


      I am just stating the bleedin obvious.

      What cave have you been livin in???

      So come off your high and mighty, better than thou cloud that you seem to inhabit.

      Mr Angry,,geez peace.

      And why are you called “Chubby”?

      Got a bit of a wright thing goin on fatty?

    399. Bobp says:

      Talking down here now about another Brexit referendum. If by chance there is one, how’s about nicola makes it clear. This time it wont be a UK/britain/England vote. But a separate Scotland England one.

    400. Cubby says:

      Dr Jim@1.31pm

      Your point is well made.

    401. Jack Murphy says:

      Off Topic.
      Scottish Parliament TV.


      Thursday 21/02/2019:

    402. Cubby says:


      You make no points just more personal insults.

    403. jezza says:

      Note to self:

      Ignore Chubby…

    404. Dr Jim says:

      @Bobp 1:34pm

      The evidence points to Scotland voting the same way again and with an increased majority on remain, however in England the evidence seems to point to the vote being pretty much the same as before for leave so the SNP would I imagine have some sort of qualifications on agreeing to the population style vote again which would most certainly see England as the majority population once again get its way by weight of numbers because the whole premise of *The UK wide vote* was flawed in the first place as completely undemocratic given that Scotland is a country of 5.4 million and not a territory of England which is 55 million

      It’s like putting a heavyweight in with a flyweight and calling it a fair contest when the heavyweight wins but the World Boxing Council said it was legal so the result stands even though the world WBC was sponsoring the heavyweight

    405. robbo says:

      That trans tory activist bloke’s face on Stu’s twitter feed has really disturbed me – i think I will have nightmares for life

    406. Dr Jim says:

      Larry Flanagan of the EIS teachers Union encourages the teachers not to accept the wage increase and begin strike action

      Looks like long talks have been taking place with Richard Leonard and his pals again

      If the Teachers don’t accept this offer and strike I predict they will get zero support from Scotlands population this time, the offer they have been made in the light of Scotlands circumstances has been fantastic and the best anywhere in any country of the UK, to reject this deal will be to bring down the wrath of parents on them, plus they will be putting their own jobs in jeopardy by Teacher cuts to pay for more

      Maybe they don’t care about that, but parents will, and it still won’t bring the SNP down which is the point of the exercise is it not Mr Flanagan and Mr Leonard….scummy Labour politics and we see it

    407. Abulhaq says:

      Sooner than later the scales have to come off some peoples eyes, There is an antipathy to things Scottish in England. I have met it, argued with it and frankly got nowhere with it. It is almost on the colonial level of ‘we civilized you’, ‘what have you ever done’, ‘independence will make you dirt poor’ etc.
      Ignorance of Scotland’s history and culture is the default setting for too many, and not just the Brexiters.

    408. Cubby says:


      “Note to self: ignore cubby”. You’ve said that before. Pity you can’t keep your own promises as I am more than happy not to read your pathetic foul mouthed insults.

      Here’s another note to self you might want to try – Jezza must stop posting anti English racist comments.

    409. Petra says:

      Thanks for the links Nana. I see that Queenie doesn’t want to contribute to the betterment of Scotland …. AGAIN …. and her greed knows no bounds. Does anyone have any idea if she’s actually done anything positive for Scotland at all, as ”Queen of the Scots”, during her 68 year reign? Answers on a postage stamp … eh, meant postcard.


      @ Cubby says at 1:06 pm …. ”that will give us a better of idea of whether the SNP is led by Bruce minded characters or just a bunch of not so bonnie Charlie’s who may have been got at by the Britnats.”

      SNP being ”got at” by the BritNats? Where on earth is that ”idea” coming from Cubby? The BritNat Twitterati? Is there any evidence to support such a suggestion and if so who are they actually referring to?


      BBC news of the day: plus aired on the Victoria Derbyshire show. A glowing report from the BBC on the fab one hundred White Helmets plus their families having been resettled in the UK. Amazing how if they are trying to stir up racial hatred, and using the foreigner in question, the reports are made by someone using their foreign accent. In this instance the White Helmet outlining his sob story on the news had an English accent.

      No report from the ”impartial” BBC on this? The BBC that states that they ”retain a respect for factual accuracy and fairly represent opposing viewpoints”…

    410. Tam the Bam. says:

      Off topic:

      Brent Crude has just hit $67 per barrel.

    411. jezza says:


      If you don’t read my posts then how do you know I am anti Englander???

      You pathetic little man that you are.

      Mr Angry right enough.

    412. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m afraid to say that international law is still very much a game of who has the loudest voice and biggest stick. It would be irresponsible to proceed on the expectation that the international community will involve itself in what is, to outside observers, an internal mater of state integrity. Westminster is the internationally recognised interlocutor, the legal personality of Scotland is presently invisible to the world.

    413. Marie Clark says:

      Tam the Bam @ 2.50. Ochone, ochone, ile @ $67 per barrel, whit will we dae noo. Aw that’s terrible news.

      Wee smiley thing.

    414. Dr Jim says:

      Unionist Trolls out in force today complaining about a SNP car parking tax that nobody’s actually paying

      The only people who have introduced and raised the level of parking taxes are Labour and Tory councils on public car parks

      Councils have the power to lower taxes as well as raise them

    415. geeo says:


      Nicola has already said that SNP support for a 2nd EU referendum was dependent on Scotland getting what Scots vote for, regardless of what England votes for this time.

      Guess what was omitted from the reporting of Nicola’s support for EU ref2 ?

      Thats right, “dependent on Scotland getting what we vote for”.

      She said this months ago.

    416. heraldnomore says:

      I see Kez has a new date for her diary

    417. crazycat says:

      @ Dan at 1 pm

      Graeme is coming to talk to us in Yes East Ayrshire next month. Our space is limited (our last two events have been stowed out), so I won’t yet post a link to the tickets, but if there are any left next Tuesday, I shall be sending a notice to The National for their listings.

    418. Cubby says:


      You seem to have forgotten your promise to yourself which you have now made twice. A reminder for you.

      “Note to self: ignore Cubby”

      Never said I didn’t read your posts. What I did say was I was happy not read any more of your insult laden posts directed at me if you adhere to your promise. You failed to honour your promise.

      On the other hand I promised you our paths would never cross again if you did not post anti English racist comments or gratuitous insults directed towards me. Unlike you I stuck to my promise.

    419. Legerwood says:

      @ 10.48 am
      BAlmoral is the Royal family’s own property as is Sandringham.

      Items from the Royal collection are on regular display at Museums around the country e.g. Queens Gallery, Holyrood Kelvingrove, Smith Art Gallery. Stirling had some of the Da Vin

    420. Cubby says:


      If you go back through the posts you will see that I disagreed with Daisy Walker who thought there was merit in raising the possibility of this being the case. I couldn’t see much merit in raising it tbh.

      Daisy didn’t put forward any evidence. She did say it was possible and explained in theory what may have happened. You need to read the posts to get a full picture of the discussion.

    421. Dr Jim says:

      You wouldn’t invite someone into your garden who threw flares at you or coins while shouting sectarian or racist abuse and if they did come in you would call the police to have them arrested

      It seems that certain sectarian bigoted football clubs don’t want to do that, they want to blame the government for a societal problem that means the bad people who do these things only have to be excluded from their special football gardens because it’s not their fault for inviting them in and charging them a fee to do it in the first place

      If football clubs can charge a person a fee to be a nut job then the football club should pay the fine and the individual do the time and it should be a hefty fine or the club plays its football with the doors closed to the fee paying nut jobs as the club seems unable to identify which or how many of them there are

      Do we think the loss of revenue from the fee paying nut jobs might assist the football clubs in their thinking and even help the fee paying non nut jobs start dobbing the real nut jobs in, I think sooo

      Aye definitely no sectarianists or racists at board level in the football game, how very dare anybody think there was

    422. Hamish100 says:

      Is the infamous Kelly got any views on the recent sectarian outbursts at football matches? Would some sort of legislation help?

    423. geeo says:

      @CameronB Brodie.

      I would respectfully dissagree with that assessment.

      Scotland is a previously independent country currently engaged in a legally equal treaty of Union with another equal partner country (kingdoms in fact) even if WM does not act like that is the case.

      The legal reality is that the Treaty is of 2 legally equal partners.

      If i sign a mobile phone contract for say £30/month, but only Pay £15 for all but the original month, would any legal action by the phone company succeed against me or would it fail because i made £15 the new normal payment ?

      If i claimed that in court i would be laughed at.

      The Treaty of Union is explicit in what the founding terms of the United Kingdom is based upon.

      We are not seeking permission to dissolve the Treaty, we are making sure the international community know that we have done so, in case WM tries to challenge our perfectly legal right to dissolve the treaty.

      All we would be doing is showing the International court the proof that WM would be trying to deny.

      Scotland’s constitutional arrangement with England is pretty much unique in the world, and absolutely not comparable with Catalonia, Kosovo or anywhere else.

      I cannot think of another arrangement on earth where 2 countries are in a treated union of legal equals, where one partner treats the other like England treats Scotland.

      Especially when Scotland only has to dissolve the treaty to end it.

      To say international courts would have a deciding opinion on our legal status is frankly insulting the intelligence.

      If WM try to dispute the legal realities of the Treaty of Union, then the international court would only be asked to look at who can prove what.

      We can prove the Treaty of Union says what it says, what document would WM present as evidence Scotland is merely a colony of England and was extinguished in 1707 ?

    424. Proud Cybernat says:

      Cut it out.

      (You know who you are).

    425. jezza says:


      FFS sunshine,,,dry yer eyes!!!

    426. Hamish100 says:

      Carlaw is worried abput car park charges and the poor paying the same as a wealthy person. How considerate. Lets have means testing on VAT then or just increase taxes for the wealthy. The tories will obviously support this. Tories are the lowest of the low and are even worse now infiltrated by ukippers.

    427. Cubby says:

      Dr Jim @4.04pm

      I remember the time when all seated stadiums were introduced and it was said this would help provide the means to eradicate all this type of unacceptable behaviour. Looks like that was a false dawn.

      Perhaps we need some new legislation to deal with unaceptable behaviour at football matches. Of course the Britnats will oppose it as they love their divide and conquer approach in Scotland.

    428. Cubby says:

      An hypocrite is the environmentalist who professes to care about the environment but goes about dropping litter.

      Similarly on Wings people who complain about others having spats but are not averse in the past or now to having their own spats.

    429. wull says:

      Is that the same James Kelly who is venerated as the patron saint of all those lovers of ‘offensive behaviour at football matches’? As witnessed on Sunday through to Wednesday … by Kilmarnock folk, for example.

      All those nice flare-throwers, coin-chuckers and seat-destroying pitch-invaders who were making their guest appearance behind the goal at Rugby Park, on Sunday … Or the home-mob sectarian target-that-FB chanters at Ibrox on Wednesday evening … (i.e. get that man whom our board once approached to manage our team …)

      Maybe that great luminary, oor James, had a secret wonder-plan to bring all these guys – the lunatics on both sides – together, thereby forging a bond of everlasting peace between them …

      They could all join the gither and become one, in their devotions to him: St James, the patron saint of offensive behaviour at football matches. That would put an end to sectarianism. A master plan from that pure genius of ours, whom they would then all not just sing along for but, also, vote for, everlastingly …

      He might even, at last, win a seat in Holyrood, instead of just sitting in a listed one. With all that support from the lunatics in both constituencies, they would all follow follow him and no longer would he walk alone. What a dastardly, and pure brilliant plan. Who else could have thought it up?

      In saying that, no offence meant to all the many decent people who support both these clubs. Those people who simply want to watch football, and will have nothing whatever to do with the offensive minorities that attach themselves to their clubs. The decent people who want to see action taken to eject from football grounds those offenders, whose behaviour only causes them shame, costs their clubs money, destroys their reputations and disgraces the whole of Scotland.

      The kind of action that the Scottish government tried to take, and which was beginning to have good results. And which James Kelly and the cross-party cohorts who supported his pro-offensive behaviour ‘reform’ in Holyrood deliberately destroyed and overturned.

      The law may not have been perfect, but it was working. Just the threat which the legislation posed was rooting out and preventing the kind of behaviour which no one in his right mind wants. And that behaviour was beginning to disappear. Now look at it … After Kelly himself, on this specific issue, the Greens in particular should hang their heads in shame …

      The Scottish government (and the police presence at football matches) were doing what the clubs had never been able to do for themselves (even when they tried, they were completely ineffective). Now that it’s going to cost the two most offending clubs money – and now that the other clubs who have something of the same problem see that it could potentially cost them money too – maybe the Premier League members and the rest of Scottish football, the whole of the SFA and all the structures, will begin to lobby the Scottish government to bring back the legislation, or its equivalent. Because they don’t like spending money unnecessarily – so the plea will go up … ‘Come and do our jobs for us again, like you used to do!’

    430. CameronB Brodie says:

      British anti-Catholic sectarianism is a tool of British nationalism. It is intended to divide the ‘working-class’ and, thereby, assist Westminster in the retention of power over Scotland.

    431. Hamish100 says:

      See Wales has the worst NHS A&E record. Which party runs Wales Mr Leonard?

    432. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Hamish 100 @ 4.05pm

      You asked: “Is the infamous Kelly got any views on the recent sectarian outbursts at football matches? Would some sort of legislation help?”

      Mr Kelly’s view on the recent events are easy to discern. If it was “That Hun Scum” that was calling Stevie Clarke A Fenian Bastard, then that is quite clearly disgusting bigotry and sectarianism which whould bring the full force of the law down on the perpetrators.

      The flare throwing, seat breaking, the crowd invsion, not to mention the clear red-card tackle by Scott Brown, which went unpunished, Ah! well, in Mr Kelly’s view these were mere over-exuberance and the incidents were blown-up out of all proportion by the anti-Celtic media in this country.

      The Rangers support should have the full force of existing legislation brought down on them, while the poor wee, put-upon Celtic support should be compensated for all they have to put up with.

      That, I believe, sums-up the Kelly’s eye view of things.

    433. robert alexander harrison says:

      Oh no James I WILL NOT SIT DOWN Kelly at it again seriously that moron never learnt from his humiliation at mackeys hands when he said to Mr Kelly and I qoute pick a council any council alphabetically if not your own.

    434. CameronB Brodie says:

      I accept Scotland’s constitutional claim and that Scotland’s legal personality has been recognized elsewhere. The problem is that Westminster runs under English law and does not support the doctrine of international (human rights) law. England is exceptional in a manner that is threatening to Scotland integrity. That is it’s nature.

    435. CameronB Brodie says:

      BIG oops.

      England Westminster is exceptional in a manner that is threatening to Scotland integrity. That is it’s nature.

    436. Cubby says:

      CameronB Brodie@4.27pm

      Agree with what you say as far as it goes. I would say it is also divides the middle class as well. I was invited to a corporate box by a company at Ibrox many years ago and the sectarian hate being poured out from guys in ties and suits was possibly worse ( not an expert) than in other parts of the ground. To say I was shocked would be an understatement. Declined any subsequent invites – even though the free food and drink was nice.

      I lived in England for a number of years – sectarianism didn’t exist.

      All a Britnat tactic to keep Scotland/ NIreland in their box.

    437. Dr Jim says:

      @Cameron B Brodie 4:37pm

      Knew what you meant we all do it, difficult not to

    438. Cubby says: – I know you look at Wings as you refer to it in your broadcasts. You are doing a brilliant job. I particularly like your comments re would you give your money to your neighbour to spend and only give you some back etc etc

      The music and general chat is good as well.

    439. CameronB Brodie says:

      Agreed, anti-Catholic sectarianism isn’t a bigotry that is not owned entirely by the ‘working-class’. This is how colonialism works. Colonialism didn’t only happen over there, in the colonies. It structured British society.

    440. Dr Jim says:

      In England they’ve always been taught to hate the foreigner or the Blacks, but here in Scotland we didn’t have enough of those to hate so they treated us to sectarianism and Pakistanis

      It’s the Westminster way, dilute and diminish the local culture and replace it with the culture of hate, well they just won a referendum on it didn’t they, how did it go again?
      *Everybody is to hate 27 countries full of bad people who shouldn’t be allowed to come to Blighty and pollute our hatred with their fairness and stuff* then they throw in a few bits and bobs about immigrants of colour showing up to take the food out of our childrens mouths and Bazinga they did it again

      You can’t deny their success rate as the biggsest shit stirrers on the planet for hundreds of years and it’s why when you look at the countries who have liberated themselves from the poisonous grip of Brittania and start counting how many of them want to come back under the *British* umbrella of wonderfulness you count NONE

      Then take a look at our nearest neighbours who extricated themselves from the warmth of the Brit embrace, the Irish, and ask them wouldn’t they care to return to the bosom of Britland, and right after they spit on the ground that they pray is coming to the Brits, they’ll tell you why

    441. CameronB Brodie says:

      Getting my worms in a muggle.

      Agreed, anti-Catholic sectarianism IS a bigotry that is not owned entirely by the ‘working-class’. This is how colonialism works. Colonialism didn’t only happen over there, in the colonies. It structured British society.

    442. Gary45% says:

      Sectarianism is THE biggest embarrassment in a modern?? Scotland.
      Keeping the country divided by prehistoric knuckle dragging is an easy objective by the Establishment, it really does make Scotland look “Too Wee, Too Stupid.”

    443. Dr Jim says:

      One line in Braveheart is very applicable *If we can’t get them out we’ll breed them out*

      And they were right they’ve bred in me a deep and lasting hatred of all things British Colonialism ever stood for and those who stand for it

      Perhaps not the kind of breeding they had in mind

    444. boris says:

      Gillian is the sister of Lauren Apfel, wife of Adam Tomkins, Tory MSP and constitutional affairs spokesman for the Tory party in Scotland.

      She and her husband Rodney Ford are senior diplomats with the US State Department.

      She was influential in deciding US foreign policy when deployed to Bagdhad, Iraq and, not to be outdone, her husband Rodney, as a foreign diplomat actively influenced the outcome of political events in a number of countries in Africa over a period of 20 years.

    445. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Cubby, CBB: in my experience, some of the most frightful religious bigots are the Scottish “professional” classes, who hide their knuckle-dragging tendencies under their Crombie coats when away from fitba grounds.

      Their counterparts in anti-English bigotry are the strange 90 minute BLiS______d Scotland supporters who revert to supine poodles to WM after the whistle blows.

      Strange psychological types these, formed and manipulated easily by classic and time-tested British imperialist D&R tactics.

    446. Legerwood says:

      Legerwood says:
      21 February, 2019 at 3:52 pm
      @ 10.48 am
      BAlmoral is the Royal family’s own property as is Sandringham.

      Items from the Royal collection are on regular display at Museums around the country e.g. Queens Gallery, Holyrood Kelvingrove, Smith Art Gallery. Stirling had some of the Da Vin.””
      Apologies for the mess that is my post above. I was on a train and using a new phone.

      Corrected version:
      Clootie @ 10.48 am

      Balmoral is the Royal family’s own property as is Sandringham.

      Items from the Royal collection are on regular display at Museums around the country e.g. Queens Gallery, Holyrood which has 2-3 exhibitions annually featuring art and other items from the Royal Collections including some of the da Vinci drawings. Just a few years ago some of the da Vinci drawings were on show at Smith Art Gallery and Museum in Stirling.

      This year 144 da Vinci drawings in groups of 12 will be shown at various venues across the UK including Kelvingrove Art Gallery and Museum.

    447. CameronB Brodie says:

      Given the links to Rwanda, any connection to Vote No Borders? Wasn’t their public face involved in public relations for the reconstruction efforts in Rwanda, following the genocide?

    448. yesindyref2 says:

      Thanks for that article, very interesting. Supposedly a parody account. Shrug. Well, they would say that!

      Thanks for highlighting that post, saves me the trouble of pointing out the bigoted but fake anti-English post and poster. Perhaps Rev leaves it lying around to keep us on our toes.

    449. Legerwood says:


      EIS members have voted to reject the pay deal offered to teachers and will now be balloted about taking strike action.

      The other teaching unions have voted to accept the offer

    450. Nana says:


      Latest Gordon Ross/Indycar video

      Toxic anti-semitism “crisis” in Labour may have been manufacturered by the very 6 MPs who left the party this week.

      Scotland gets a new budget today, which keeps NHS funds secure and education attainment rising. But at the cost of optional council tax rises or council approved, workplace parking fees.
      Scotland’s unemployment level is now 13%, below that of England and Wales, as new figures contradict Tory assertions that Scotland is underperforming.

      BBC Scotland is also today, forced to apologise over lying about the jobless totals.

    451. Cubby says:

      Proud Cybernat@4.11 pm

      Thanks for the support. I agree our very own Jeremy Corbyn should cut it out with the insults.

    452. yesindyref2 says:

      @geeo / @CBB
      It’s an interesting one. I think sometimes rulings of the ICJ are accepted and acted on, other times they’re not. It’s the same with UN resolutions.

      I look at it this way, if the ICJ is considered to be the world judiciary and the UN the world executive, the world legislative is a whole wodge of conflicting treaties and conventions, between some but not all of the 197 or so not always fully recognised countries (or states) because there IS no world legislative or government. So there is no worldwide Rule of Law.

      So it’s an inevitable mix of some Law which isn’t binding in all, and Realpolitiks which is often the ones with the biggest guns. “International Law” which is therefore not really International Law, could only come about if the big powers got together and set up a parcel of Laws which they would force the smaller countries to sign up to with their big guns.

    453. CameronB Brodie says:

      Unfortunately the international rule-of-law, to a large extent, remains a project that is still under construction. Scotland’s independence would help advance this project. A Brexit that drags Scotland out of the EU, shits in the face international law.

    454. CameronB Brodie says:

      I think we’re on a similar wave-length. 😉

    455. jezza says:

      Sectarianism is rife across Scotland,,,not just Glasgow/West Coast.

      You could go into any small village anywhere in Scotland and you will find the same Rangers Celtic Catholic Protestant divisions.

      It is Scotland’s shame.

    456. Dorothy Devine says:

      Robbo ,I wish you hadn’t written that because you made me curious and I had to go have a wee look.

      Very unbraw! Who are they trying to kid or is it just a bandwagon that opens otherwise closed doors?

    457. yesindyref2 says:

      Good point about Scotland’s “case” strengthening or weakening international law. Though at times rulings are ignored, they are often the basis for future disputes – same even as Conventions that aren’t completely signed and ratified, such as the “Vienna Convention on Succession of States in respect of State Property, Archives and Debts 1983” – which was largely followed eventually in the split up of the USSR.

    458. geeo says:

      A wee thought on the car parking levy, and its generated faux stramash.

      All 3 unionist parties: “We want more powers devolved to local authorities”

      Scotsgov: “ok, have the power to raise money via a parking levy”

      Unionists: “the parking levy is a scandal, we refuse to use our new powers”.

      Scotsgov: “stop complaining about Council Budgets then”

      Unionists: “SNP BAD”.

      Remember when unionists demanded an end to the Council Tax freeze (despite it being OVER FUNDED by the SNP Gov) ?

      As soon as the freeze was removed and Councils empowered to raise CT by 3% max, some of those unionist led councils REFUSED to raise CT, maintaining the freeze !!

      The ACTUAL issue here is two-fold.

      1. Unionist councils do not want to use these new revenue raising powers (and getting those powers for raising money, was the driver behind wanting more power devolved to local level) as they fear the public will blame them for imposing the levy rather than Scotsgov.

      It would soon become clear it is a Council’s choice to impose the CPL, rather than an SNP Scotsgov one, especially when a neighbouring council DOES NOT impose the parking levy.

      By NOT imposing it, the unionists get to say “SNP BAD” about the headline policy, despite it not actually affecting anyone at all at this point.

      2. By voting AGAINST the budget, which contained lots of pre budget unionist demands (more money for NHS/POLICING/HELPING THE HOMELESS/COUNCILS/SCHOOLS etc, those unionists FORCED Scotsgov to agree a deal with the Greens, and hey presto, a Parking Levy was born.

      It is actually genius, not stupid by the SNP.

      If it is used, but not universally by councils, it is obviously NOT the Scotsgov imposing it, if say, Falkirk council use it but Stirling do not, and folk WILL soon realise that while it was available, they did not HAVE to use it, rather they CHOSE to.

      And remember, if the unionists had not helped to try vote down the budget (had a deal not been made with Greens the budget would not have been passed) the need for a Parking levy to raise cash would not have been required, as the budget delivered MORE cash for Councils to start with.

      Which brings me nicely to the last point.

      That budget, the one with all that extra cash for councils etc, WAS PASSED thanks to the support of the Greens, so all the things unionist parties wanted WERE DELIVERED (no thanks to them) so in actual fact, THERE IS NO NEED FOR ANY COUNCIL TO EVER USE THE PARKING LEVY.

      It is a red herring, used to get the budget through.

      All that posturing by unionist politicians, and media chums, just to try get an “SNP BAD” false headline.

      People will see right through it, and more Yes voters are delivered.

    459. Sinky says:

      BBC coverage of budget plenty of cuts cuts cuts but cut out Nicola Sturgeon’s response to Labour that Local Government funding had increased by £xxillions in real terms compared to last year. And Scots Gov rather than council to pay for the eye watering 9% pay increase that 56% of teachers rejected

    460. Petra says:

      Dickie Leonard’s Labour mate, Flanagan, planning to call for strike action in the lead up to the exams. Rejecting a 9% pay offer? Surely the general public must see what’s going on here?

      ‘Scotland’s biggest teaching union rejects pay offer.’

      ..”The Scottish government said it was the best pay deal for any public sector worker in the UK, offering a 9% rise by April and a further 3% next year.”


      @ Cubby says at 4:00 pm …… ”Petra – If you go back through the posts you will see that I disagreed with Daisy Walker who thought there was merit in raising the possibility of this being the case. I couldn’t see much merit in raising it tbh. Daisy didn’t put forward any evidence. She did say it was possible and explained in theory what may have happened. You need to read the posts to get a full picture of the discussion.”

      OK thanks for that Cubby. I’ll check it out later.

    461. robbo says:

      Dorothy Devine says:
      21 February, 2019 at 6:39 pm
      Robbo ,I wish you hadn’t written that because you made me curious and I had to go have a wee look.

      Very unbraw! Who are they trying to kid or is it just a bandwagon that opens otherwise closed doors?

      Oh lol am nae sure Dorothy.I think he/she/shehe/heshe wid huv problems no matter what.

      Not saying am any Richard Gere but com on, that is kidding no one and give me the hebie jibbies.

      Shame on you Stu for traumatising me for life by retweeting that! lmao

    462. Socrates MacSporran says:

      After watching that wee clip of the exchanges between James Kelly, John Finnie and the FM, on the Rev’s twitter feed, I reckon the other suspects will really have to lift their game to shift him off top spot in the Thickos league table.

    463. Cactus says:

      Frae ah recent WingsScotland twitter retweet…

      “I was talking to a woman the other night in the pub. Saying I was thinking of getting some extra food supplies in just in case. ‘Oh don’t be daft’ she said. ‘Brexit won’t happen. It’ll be a No Deal and things will just carry on as they are’. Nearly fell off my chair….”

      The lady from the above pub and some others have yet To Learn that:

      No Deal does NOT mean No UKexit. (glossary: Br not appropriate.)

      No Deal does NOT mean that things will continue in status quo.

      No Deal means… things will NOT remain the same as now.

      No Deal means… be VERY emergenceley alarmed.

      No Deal means No Deal.


      Follows after..


    464. geeo says:

      Re: threatened strike action.

      Call them out.

      Scotsgov should declare that the 9% will be on the table for 3 more days, then it will be off the table until we see how the ukexit cards fall.

      Tell them, that the 9% is a ‘good faith’ offer, but if Scotland is not independent post ukexit, pay rises will be unaffordable for some time to come, so take it before it is unaffordable.

      When Scotland is independent, pay talks can recommence and 9% MAY be put back on the table.

      See how the teachers react to union advice faced with that.

    465. Nana says:

      Re the EIS

      Maybe the greedy EIS leader is holding out to get a fat bonus for himself

      This article appeared in the herald last year

      £97k a year trade union boss would get 10% rise under teacher pay deal

    466. Legerwood says:

      Petra @ 7 PM

      The teachers turning down a 9% pay deal with a further 3% next year and balloting for a strike is not a good look for them especially so when a couple of days ago all the news was of salaries rising by 3.4% in the past year.

      I doubt they will have much support among parents or the general public. The teachers keep trying to justify their claim by saying that their pay has fallen over the last few years but so has everyone else in the public sector who were getting 1% pay rises.

    467. yesindyref2 says:

      It’s 9% all in, including next year’s 3%. Not a further 3%. So 6% this year, with some backdated to last year.

      Pretty sure, but stand to be corrected.

    468. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      This is currently sitting at 83% YES.

      You know what to do…

      By the way, the second paragraph of that “story” is…

      “The Survation poll, commissioned by a pro-Union group, found that if a referendum were held now, the majority of Scottish voters aged 16 and over would choose to stay in the UK and just 40 per cent would choose to leave, once the don’t knows are removed.??”

    469. Cactus says:

      Staying on topical (and we’re about to hit the next page…)
      (unfortunately infinity was not creatable… for example only)


    470. jfngw says:

      I think the EIS is giving us who have reservations about nationalising things confirmation of these doubts. It gives the power to bring down governments to some thick union reps who are close to the Labour party. They did it in the 1970’s and eventually helped to destroy their own industries and it gave the Tories the reason to bring in new laws on striking.

      If the EIS reject the deal it should be taken off the table and they should then be offered the same deal as the other countries in the UK.

    471. Iain.mhor says:

      Just clocked in so a bit behind.
      @geeo 10:25 am

      The problem is @geeo, it is not the case that any of that is “Internationally recognised” It’s not even recognised domestically, no-one anywhere else has clarified it and written it down anywhere in their International ‘books’ not even a post-it note. Some have made sympathetic noises, but that is far from official recognition.
      You, I and the esteemed Mr Peffers know the arguments at their crux, but it is disputed – The core is: “Do the Kingdoms of Scotland & England still exist”? All else falls out fairly easily from that. However, for arguments sake, let us suppose they do not, they were “extinguished” – then any Treaty and or Acts are mere historical redundant documents, as there exist no parties to be bound by them. When the parties ceased to exist all the documents in law ceased to exist.

      There are a few eminent legal minds who have stated this to be their interpretation of the case, as I mentioned (The infamous Crawford & Boyle spring to mind, but there are many others) Had there been any third party ‘legal verification’ then it would have been brought to bear on the cases being made thus:
      “Though this is our interpretation, internationally recognised entities x,y,z have stipulated The Kingdoms of England & Scotland are recognised by them as existing nation states in a mutual Political Union – therefore our view of “extinctions” is invalid. Don’t know why you all bothered asking us frankly, it’s there in black and white, but here’s our legal expenses anyway thanks”

      But that didn’t happen because there is no such thing. I and the legal profession in the UK, would be happy if anyone unearthed such a thing. Anyway this is all moot and my point was : Unless you are 100% sure, cast iron, that they will agree – do not attempt to have anyone else give you an opinion on whether you are a Nation State.
      When you want their opinion, you’ll give it to them!.
      That part brings us into some agreement at least perhaps.
      I’ll away and wipe my chin 😉

    472. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      See this?

      Who the hell is “Richard Bronson”?

    473. Hamish100 says:

      giv the teachers more pay providing they only have 4 weeks hols in the summer. Saves others child care costs. Nope they won’t accept.

      Teachers need to recognise that the rest of us lesser mortals see their deal as a good one. Don’t be forced by the Labour party into strike action. No good for pupils.

      ps ask the labour party what the teachers in Wales are being offered.

    474. Tinto Chiel says:

      I feel the REVISED offer to teachers was a good one. The two teachers in my family, one in each sector, and hardly shrinking violets when it comes to standing up for themselves, voted happily to take it.

      Flanagan, in his weasel-worded comments today, suddenly introduced workload into the equation as a reason for rejection. The EIS has never been interested in fighting on that front, an issue which has been a great concern for teachers for a long while but which is complex and requires intelligent negotiation, a quality which have been sadly lacking in the EIS since the death of John Pollock.

      A refusal only in the 50%s is a big danger for the EIS, and with other unions accepting. Flanagan risks splitting his union if he goes for a strike ballot, with mass resignations from teachers who feel it was a good offer and who also suspect his motives. I don’t know if he has the brains to see this.

      If I were Swinney I would tell Flanagan he’s had his chips since I have heard EIS members have been told by the union they will get a still better offer if they go on strike.

      Intelligent teachers have already worked out a lot of their increased pay will diminish rapidly with every strike day.

      Honest John’s question to Larry The Bam should now be: “Do you feel lucky, punk?”

      Finally, if Brexit occurs, the SG may have to revisit the budget and withdraw the offer which has been rejected by teachers.

      Ever thunk o’ yon, Poindexters?

    475. Heart of Galloway says:

      Ran into a street demo in Manchester Piccadilly on Saturday. It was a Labour left event with assorted anti-racist and anti-fascist flyers and Morning Star newspapers. Fair enough, I thought.

      An auld man with tousled silver-hair and thick glasses had a mic. He had himsel’ fair worked up and was inviting bemused passers-by (loudly) to condemn media persection of refugees and immigrants. “Gaun yersel’ ” said I.

      A few folk were milling about the stall when an angry wee man with a flea-bitten Jack Russell wandered up and began haranguing the activists.

      “What about the white people?” he kept yelling and jostled one of the leaflet lassies, who inadvertently jostled me to get out of the road.

      The law arrived and after the situation calmed down, I went up to the speaker and told him I was from Scotland.

      “What do you say to Scottish membership of the EU?” I asked. “That’s a matter for the people of Scotland,” he said.

      “Indeed it is,” said I. “As a matter of interest, how did you vote in the EU referendum yourself?”

      “I voted Leave,” he said somewhat apologetically, perhaps anticipating what was coming next.

      “Well, so did that wee guy causing you all the trouble. You keep some very strange company, my friend. Don’t you think it’s a bit strange for a socialist to be on the same side as Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage?”

      He made no reply. He could easily have been Jeremy Corbyn. Or George Galloway.

      As I said somewhere on a previous thread, England is lost. For Scotland it’s Europe or bust.

      Just a wee shapshot from a jaunt ower the Border…

    476. geeo says:

      @iain mhor.

      The Claim of Right was just recently re affirmed by WM unopposed.

      If The Kingdom of Scotland was extinguished, then why would WM affirm the Scottish Claim of Right, making it pertinent ?

      As i asked earlier, what document can WM produce that proves the extinction of the Kingdom of Scotland ?

      And why would the Uk parliament uphold a founding tenet of the Treaty of Union document if the Sovereign people’s country involved, no longer exists, as extinguishing the KofS would have removed its peoples sovereignty, so when did that happen and by whose authority ? (Considering our sovereignty cannot be removed unless we give it away as a collective)

      Show me a scrap of evidence ?

    477. yesindyref2 says:

      @Tinto Chiel
      A far better summary than some of the anti-teacher stuff I’ve seen.

      Some, no idea how many, do unpaid overtime, quite a lot, at home, preparing for lessons, and also spend their own money on materials (I know this for a 100.00000% certainty having been involved the odd occasion).

      What it should be about is being paid for unpaid hours, and getting expenses paid. Plus a more normal pay rise across the board.

    478. jfngw says:


      The articles of union makes no mention of extinguishing the Kingdom of Scotland or England. It does say the treaty creates the Kingdom of Great Briton. I suspect this was not done because they were particularly concerned about extinguishing the Kingdom of Scotland but if they did it would also require the Kingdom of England to also be extinguished, which I suspect the government of England would never countenance.

    479. Cubby says:

      if the Kingdoms of Scotland and England do not exist then why are there two monarchies?

      I think you can guess from the above that my opinion is that a treaty of Union and the 1706/7 treaty do not extinguish the parties to the treaty. France was not extinguished when it signed up to the EU.

    480. Liz g says:

      jfngw @ 8.51
      Well… I’d argue that whither it did or didn’t, it’s only the case for as long as the Treaty is a live document.
      Once the Treaty is struck down/ dissolved it’s the United Kingdom that’s then extinguished, and absent another Treaty arrangement (not bloody likely) it will stay extinguished.

    481. Legerwood says:

      yesindyref2 @ 8pm
      The Scottish government said it was the best pay deal for any public sector worker in the UK, offering a 9% rise by April and a further 3% next year.

    482. sandy says:

      Jeeza @ 6.38 pm.

      As usual, your talking through your rectum again.
      You portray yourself as a most unsavory character who any self-respecting person would give a very wide berth. OK, you would appear to be a supporter of Scottish self-determination & are eligible to vote. Give us your vote then b****r off from this blog. Can’t you understand that your popularity here is incalculable. I have yet to see any remote agreement with which you spout, along with hydrogen from that aforesaid part of your body, from any contributor here on WOS.

    483. Liz g says:

      Ian Mhor @ 8.15
      The argument that the Treaty is just an old document was put to bed in the Gina Miller case..
      Canny mind the details off the top of my head….but can remember pointing it out at the time.
      The 16th century documents that gave the English Parliament their Monarchs Sovereignty was accepted as was the 1707 Treaty.
      As I’ve said in the past The Treaty of Union is what gives the Acts of the UK Parliament the force of Law.. it’s the foundation document of the UK Parliament.
      Dissolve that Treaty and Westminster Acts have no Legal force in Scotland!
      But the dissolution is a political action not a legal one…

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