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The mastermind

Posted on February 03, 2018 by

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  1. 03 02 18 07:56

    The mastermind | speymouth

316 to “The mastermind”

  1. John Dickson says:

    He really was vying for Willie Rennie’s position as Court Jester

  2. Morgatron says:

    Class. He really is thick as shit.

  3. Arthur Martin says:

    Well done Chris, you’ve captured the British Labour Party in Scotland perfectly in that cartoon. Several bungled childish attempts to come up with a tax policy for Scotland and eventually, ( we’re not going to be rushed, har har ! ), they dream up a non existant work of fantasy that the Grimm brothers would have been proud of.
    They really are in a mess what with ground soldiers like Kelly who hasn’t come up with a good idea since his last dump, led by Dick Leanord whose recent performances at FMQ’s have become painfully embarrassing to watch. And to think that I used to lend my vote to these clowns.

  4. yesindyref2 says:

    Tom Gordon in the Herald not only lambasts Labour, he has an even bigger go at the Tories for their, well, absence of anything at all.

  5. starlaw says:

    Great cartoon Chris, now could you do one with Kelly eating a bowl of tripe as that’s all we will be left with once the Tories sell our beef to the USA and China.

  6. Gary45% says:

    Brilliant Chris.
    Although I think you are being too generous regarding Kelly’s abilities.

  7. Gullane No4 says:

    Kelly is totally out of his depth, so it appears is his leader.

    Labour really do not get it, perish the thought of the SNP having to go into a coalition parliament with these fools.

  8. Bill Hume says:

    I’m a very impressed that he can spell unicorn.

  9. Graeme says:

    The dearth of talent in all the opposition branch offices in Holyrood is utterly woeful but Labour are way out in lead, You only have to look at their leader (who presumably is the best they’ve got) not to mention their finance spokesman to see how completely clueless & pointless they are.

    Along with their friends the LibDems all they do is try to block everything the SNP try to do then try to steal the credit when they do it

    Only yesterday Leonard tried to take credit for Jeanne Freemans work and it wasn’t that long ago he tried to muscle in on the BiFab success with his sneaky little photo shoot at the plant, what an utter disgrace of a man. and the LibDems trying to take credit for the ferry services when they voted against it.

    The SNP are doing amazing job since gaining power at Holyrood but it will never reach it’s true potential until we are shot of the shit that is the UK branch offices, all of them

  10. ScottieDog says:

    I just wonder, is there anyone with a spine left in SLAB.
    When devolution is upended will they still sit on their hands?.

  11. Mike d says:

    So the mooth says she’s ‘laser focused ‘on becoming first minister in 2021. I think if this abomination of a situation ever arose, I’d turn my back on Scotland forever.

  12. Robert Louis says:

    Kelly for FM!! :):)

    Honestly, I watched FMQ’s for the first time in a long time this week, and was utterly shocked at how inept Richard Leonard – the Scottish branch manager of Labour – is. He won’t be in that position for long. Bring back Kezia – at least she was entertaining.

    Then their was Ruth Davidson, who was equally inept. It is remarkable the way the British Nationalist media ‘big’ her up, as some kind of political whirlwind, yet up in Scotland most folk have realised she is mediocre at best, or as Nicola Sturgeon put it, ‘feeble’.

    And that brings me on to Nicola Sturgeon, our First Minister. Her performance at FMQ’s was a masterclass in political skill. Most, most impressive. Head and shoulders above the rest, including those in South Britain. Scotland is lucky we have such a competent Government in charge right now.

    All we need now is independence to free us from the British Nationalist morons, and their plans to leave the world’s largest trading bloc (the EU), in Westminster.

  13. Valerie says:

    Richard Leonard now claiming the work done by Jeane Freeman on new social security as a Labour win.

    I find this trolling, low level lying, even for them.

  14. Robert Louis says:

    Valeri at 0917am,

    It is a lie by Richard Leonard. The Scottish Government promised to remove private profit making companies from welfare assessments in April of last year, but had to wait until the powers were transferred from London to do so. It had NOTHING to do with Labour – and THEY KNOW IT.

    It is however, even more disingenuous of Richard Leonard to lsay such things about such a subject, because it was LABOUR (and not the tories) who first introduced ATOS to undertake welfare assessments. Just like it was LABOUR who first introduced tuition fees (again not the tories).

    People like Richard Leonard and Corbyn keep trying to mislead, especially, young people who may not know of these things. It is amazing the number of young people who think it was Tories who introduced tuition fees, but are then shocked to hear it was actually LABOUR. Honestly, Labour should stick to what they believe in, and start being honest to people, instead of constantly lying and pretending to take credit for things they haven’t ever done.

    They are the worst of the worst, utter charlatans of the lowest kind.

  15. stonefree says:

    How did Kelly qualify as a chartered accountant, he obviously had some input into Labour’s dogs dinner

  16. Scott Cameron says:

    Is that the Reporting Scotland abacus?

  17. Helena Brown says:

    How did so many get where they are, Leonard used the Trade Unions, Kelly perhaps can just about manage to count, Ian Smart, surely a mistake in that name, well how can I put it may have a good memory. I have dealt with too many lawyers over the years to be in awe of them.
    Labour, all of them view their party as a vehicle they use to become a lad oh pairts, much as medieval lads used the Church. Their way into money and a wee shot at power.
    Another excellent cartoon, we take their power away when we laugh at them

  18. Bob Mack says:

    Somebody’s handed him a copy of their homework. Leonard?

  19. Muscleguy says:

    @Bill Hume
    He had to come here to Dundee under cover of the night and creep up to the harbour basin and copy it from the frigate berthed there, with his tongue between his teeth with the effort of getting it right.

  20. GrahamB says:

    stonefree says:
    3 February, 2018 at 9:39 am
    How did Kelly qualify as a chartered accountant, he obviously had some input into Labour’s dogs dinner

    As far as I’ve been able to discover he’s not actually a qualified CA. He did “work in accountancy” but he might just have been a general gopher or maybe a tea-boy. Whatever he did must have been a standing job as he does not like to sit down!

  21. galamcennalath says:

    Great cartoon, feeble politician!

    Well, at least the Scotland sub branch of the UK Labour Party are likely to be in a position to cause any serious trouble any time soon.

    Unlike their BritNat bedfellows, the Tories, who at every level seem Hell bent to reliving all the imperial glories of Suez.

  22. Tinto Chiel says:

    You’ve caught his utter vacuity perfectly, Chris. Gerald Ford would feel an intellectual giant in his company.

    I don’t think borrowing Jackie Baillie’s wee abacus is going to really help him, either.

    And yet the Butcher’s Apron still flies over Rutherglen…..

    *Grinds teeth*

  23. In the past I suspect Labour was able to keep these numpties out of the spotlight and away from the media.

    However with their election to the Scottish Parliament the likes of Kelly and Baillie are showing people just how really useless and incompetent they are.

  24. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Och! Be nice to wee Jamesie, it cannot be easy being the untalented third Chuckle Brother, behind wee Wullie Rennie and big Murdo Fraser.

  25. Fred says:

    “Sit Down Next to Me!” James!

  26. Proud Cybernat says:

    @ Bill Hume

    “I’m a very impressed that he can spell unicorn.”

    Except he was actually trying to spell ‘Union’.

  27. Street Andrew says:

    ScottieDog says:
    3 February, 2018 at 8:49 am
    “I just wonder, is there anyone with a spine left in SLAB.”

    Spines are not a big feature in pondlife.

  28. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    In support of WGD’s magnificent dismantling of Ruth Davidson in today’s National I sent them my wee poem. Wonder if they’ll publish it.

    Fair fa’ your smirkin’, puddin’ face,
    Great chieftain o’ the nawbag race!
    O’ self awareness n’er a trace,
    But whaur next tae bluff in?
    The Bake Off surely is your place
    Pie, bridie ,muffin

    Oor journal’s pictures there ye fill,
    Wi’ hurdies like a distant hill,
    Astride a coo does nae instil
    In times o’ need,
    A sicht o’ conduct sensible
    Yer aff yer heid.

    Atween the thighs thon mighty gun
    Suggesting less than wholesome fun
    Or mibbes, worse, respect undone
    To ribald laughter
    Away ye go tae grand London
    It’s what ye’re efter

  29. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Actually I sent the National a letter last week which made what I thought was a very valid point and was one I really enjoyed but it didn’t make it.

    “For younger readers the wee fellow with the funny voice that was on Question Time last week was a Michael Forsyth, Mrs Thatcher’s right hand man decades ago in Scotland as Scotland’s industrial base was destroyed. At that point he propelled the Tories in Scotland to their worst ever General Election result.

    His inclusion in the programme however is indicative of several things.

    The British establishment and the BBC which fronts it doesn’t understand Scotland and imagines that Forsyth (like Gordon Brown) is held in some respect in Scotland.

    None of the new intake of tories, blue and red, into Scottish Westminster seats could be risked on QT. Hands up any one who can give me a couple of their names.

    Ruth Davidson certainly could not be risked now as audience reaction would blow apart the fatuous myth, relentlessly promoted, that she is hugely admired among us and is saving the Tories and the union in Scotland.

    And we will see it snowing in Timbuktu before Mr Mundell is put to any such test before the public.

    The SNP and the cause for independence has beaten all the unionist parties in Scotland. Their continued existence of any significance relies entirely on an establishment controlled media false front.

    The fact is that lost causes in politics do not attract significant, able or ambitious people and the union is a lost cause.

  30. They used to say you could put a red rosette on a horses ass and the Lunatic Labour Loyal would vote for it,

    just sayin.

    Just seen/saw Nicola at FMQ`s she was very complimentary to Sarwar for standing up to the endemic racism in the Labour party,

    `Conversation not Confrontation` is the Nicola way.

  31. Dr Jim says:

    New Labour Old Labour New idiots and Kelly the please keep me in a job Labour
    Tom Harris on the BBC radio Shereen show said he was mourning the death of New Labour because Jeremy Corbyns Momentum had finally gotten rid of another one of the last of that faction then went on to say he didn’t want to say anything else because he still wanted to keep his job a bit longer

    We used to have the Nazi Tories and the Nazi pretendy Labour now we’ve got Nazi Tories and Communist Labour who are in essence both the same thing, extremist head cases

    Now we know why Patrick Harvie and his Green shirts have been so chummy with Labour recently
    Labour want most of your money the Green shirts want it all

    Thank God the SNP only say how much have we got and what can we do with it without making people poorer

    Maybe that’s why they keep winning most people don’t like extremes of anything

  32. Socrates MacSporran says:

    I saw a facebook exchange this morning, involving one of my mates, who works part-time at the Hydro. He said he was working on the touring Strictly show there last night, which was won by: “the wee Scottish wumman comic.”

    I didn’t know Ruth Davidson was on Strictly.

  33. starlaw says:

    Probably means Susan Calman not much of a comic . But Ive never seen her dancing.

  34. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    It’s funny that way things are turning out. As we all know, income tax as the sole self-generated source of income in Scotland was always intended as a tax trap, a stick with which to beat the SNP in government no matter what the circumstances.

    Thwarted by the SG’s astute handling of successive budgets, even when it has no majority.

    Instead, the tax cunning plan has had unintended consequences: it has brutally exposed the opposition to being utter incompetents!

    As Chris astutely illustrates, the NorthBritLab effort was worthy of a five-year-old. Whereas all the Tories could manage was their usual vacuous bluster. (Which is surely beginning to register with even the most politically illiterate.) And who knows what Wee Willie’s lot were thinking, since they don’t even seem to agree among themselves!

    Our political landscape is populated by giants and pygmies, and it shows.

  35. ronnie anderson says:

    Haw Chris ur U supplying Kelly the tools for his next job Abacus Crayons Spelling Blocks god help the Bairns in any nursery he’s teaching in .

  36. Dan Huil says:

    He’s drawing a self-portrait: a tractor.

  37. Nana says:

    Caught his glaikit expression very well indeed, he has a ‘lost soul’ look about him. I wonder sometimes if folk like him ever think they maybe took a wrong turn in their lives.

    Morning links on previous thread.

  38. colin alexander says:

    People in Scotland don’t vote for Scottish Labour, they vote for British Labour.

    At the UK GE: They not only won seven seats, they were runners-up in 25.

    See Jim Pillars piece:

  39. Grouse Beater says:

    I love the abacus and spelling bricks, Chris. Mind you, what worked for the Chinese for over 4,000 years must work for Scotland’s Labour branch. Surely?

    Your essential weekend reading

    The Tory’s Faustian Pact:
    All you need to know about leccy cars:

  40. colin alexander says:

    Some excellent points made today:

    “The Named Person scheme was a ridiculous project…It was always going to be targeted at poor people”

    “The proposed anti-smacking legislation falls into the same category and it’s an admission of failure too. The same neighbourhoods in Glasgow that were among the poorest in Britain 150 years ago are still the poorest.

    These people are still dying 20 years earlier than the average and our top universities, with their obscenely over-paid principals, are still locking them out of their premises because a subjective value-judgment has been made about them. But, hey, let’s not concern ourselves with that – let’s penalise them for smacking their children.”

    “in Scotland and the UK you don’t get ahead by your own ability, or honesty or willingness to work but by the school and university you attended and the neighbourhood in which you were born.”

    And for Rock:

    “our judiciary who are almost all products of this social gerrymandering, or the secret societies and rituals which determine your rank in the police.”

    We hear so much about equal representation on the Quangos and govt bodies, what that means is:
    equal numbers of middle-class men and women.

    If you are from a disadvantaged background, whatever your gender, you are NOT represented. You don’t count. You only count in the statistics for poverty and premature death.

  41. Corbyn is only copying the SNP in all his promises the things we already have up here in Scotlandbut he never mentions Scotland like the media never do unless they can try to put a bad light on things I mean they were telling us that prostrate cancer has now overtaken breast cancer for deaths in the UK and where do they go for a report on this Scotland of course as if it only happens in the best health service in Britain it is their agenda to kill of independence death by a thousand cuts how long will it take labour to deliver to the U.K. All things we now have in Scotland???

  42. call me dave says:

    Kelly’s Zeros…what a film that would be. 🙂 Good cartoon.

    Just about on topic.

    Been driving about nearly all morning there and it is my wont to earwig radio shortbread on these journeys.

    I am, as usual, dismayed at the content of Saturday broadcasts where it’s round the world with Brewer and no news of anything Scottish.

    Trump. Afghanistan.Russia.India. Saudia Arabia. today and it’s been going on for almost a year now.

    It’s the way they don’y tell the news in Scotland, is there a reason…Oh wait!

    The opposition union parties are so bad they cannot be trusted on the radio therefore best not…eh! So on topic again.

    Auntie with a kilt your a disgrace!

  43. Bill McLean says:

    Angus Robertson stepping down from politic with “immediate effect”. Just on BBC News.

  44. Dan Huil says:

    Best wishes and thanks to Angus Robertson. I hope he still plays a part in indyref2.

  45. Ian Brotherhood says:

    We didn’t see Johann Lamont going in to the SIU Burns dinner last night but we *did* see Alistair Carmichael, Murdo Fraser, Frank McAveety, Adam Ingram (remember him?) and sundry Yoon roasters all kilted up.

    What a magnificent sight!


  46. Proud Cybernat says:

    Angus Robertson resignation – I wonder?

    Is this the SNP preparing the ground for a non-politico to head up IndyRef2 campaign. A lot of folks have said it’d be better if the campaign was spearheaded by a non-politico. He’d be among my first choices.

  47. Dorothy Devine says:

    Gee ! I can hardly contain my excitement – I have just discovered that there will be not one but two Royal weddings this year and another new baby!


    Really sorry to hear that Angus Robertson is standing down as deputy ,I hope it is to head up the indyref2 and not for any bad personal reasons.

  48. Meg merrilees says:

    Ian Brotherhood

    Aye… tae see oor sel’s as ithers see us.. never a more true word!

    Well done for standing out there in the cold.

    Great cartoon Chris – so lifelike!


    If anyone feels that they can give some cash this is the link to the campaign to raise the Nancy Glen fishing boat that sank in Loch Fyne with two crew still onboard. The families hope to recover their bodies and the community will then take the boat further out and sink it in a safe place.

  49. Arbroath1320 says:

    Ladies and Gentlemen I give you … *drum roll* … the next interim branch office manager of Labour in Scotland! 😀

  50. Graeme says:

    Arbroath1320 says:
    3 February, 2018 at 2:16 pm

    “Ladies and Gentlemen I give you … *drum roll* … the next interim branch office manager of Labour in Scotland! ?”

    Please let it be James Kelly

  51. Dr Jim says:

    Yes, James Kelly, but is Scotland going to vote for a dim white sectarian idiot or am I being dimist

  52. galamcennalath says:

    Today’s letters in the Herald ..

    First letter is from an Ayrshire Labour councillor. I love this sentence …

    “As for the First Minister’s enthusiasm for openness: anyone who can read a newspaper knows that the economic effect of Brexit on the UK is roughly one-quarter of the economic effect on Scotland of leaving the UK.”

    … clearly he believes people read the Brit Nat propaganda pamphlets for facts! I’ve got real news for him, those who actually seek out details of “the economic effect of Brexit”, or Indy, are unlikely go to ‘newspapers’ for information!

    But to the main point, no one actually says the economic effect of Indy would be four times Brexit, do they? BritNats use the relative Scottish trade figures of EU and rUK to come up with a figure of four. However the negative effects of Brexit goes way beyond trade in goods. Services, migrant labour, currency stability, existing EU third party trade deals, etc … all sorts decides economic activity.

    And anyway, the figure of four times trade with rUK relative to EU is probably wrong when so many Scottish exports are attributed to England anyway.

    Still, we all know Labour … never let facts spoil a good SNPBaad story!

  53. Arbroath1320 says:

    Graeme says:

    Arbroath1320 says:

    “Ladies and Gentlemen I give you … *drum roll* … the next interim branch office manager of Labour in Scotland! ?”

    Please let it be James Kelly

    Can you imagine even for one second the fun everyone would have Graeme if Kelly was indeed the next interim branch office manager? 😀

    Dr Jim says:

    Yes, James Kelly, but is Scotland going to vote for a dim white sectarian idiot or am I being dimist

    Most of Scotland, contrary to what BBC/STV/SKY/media think, does actually have a brain Doc so they probably won’t … which in a way is why we need him to be the next temporary branch office manager. 😀

  54. Dr Jim says:

    I was being sarcastic using Anas Sarwar logic as to why folk wouldn’t vote for him
    A dumplin’s a dumplin whatever race creed colour or religion
    Wee do have racists in Scotland but they’re more likely to be in his LabTory party

    Or anybody noticed Willie Rennie likes to steer clear of this stuff, is that because the Lib Dems aren’t exactly chokka with non white folk

    On another issue during the Brexit committee evidence at Holyrood Mike Russell informed the committee that he was told by a Tory MP that Scotland are partners of the UK but NOT equals

    Lovely people

  55. Graeme says:

    Dr Jim says:

    “Yes, James Kelly, but is Scotland going to vote for a dim white sectarian idiot or am I being dimist”

    I think that’s being a bit unfair Jim, I don’t think James has the brains to be a sectarian idiot

  56. Fireproofjim says:

    Angus Robertson would be a great leader of the Yes2 campaign.
    Respected across the country. Bilingual in German for the European support. Great debater and very experienced in Unionist deviousness.

  57. Bobp says:

    Ian brotherhood 1.57pm. ‘ cnuts in kilts,eh.

  58. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Bobp –

    Quite a sight to see though – a whole stack of mutton dressed as lamb. Nauseating.

  59. Shinty says:

    re; Angus Robertson – sincerely hope he is not stepping down for personal reasons. I am sure the good folk of Moray will rue the day they voted for Douglas Ross (the guy who cannot turn up for a vote – too busy acting as a linesman/referee for a football game – outwith Scotland, obviously)

    On the bright side, was Angus not a political journalist in a past life?

    How’s things going with the AS and the Scotsman? Haven’t heard a peep recently.

    O/T Anyone not watching the Alex Salmond Show on RT can catch up on youtube. His show may not have the expertise of camera action/production – but it certainly has more honest content than anything the BBC has ever produced.

  60. galamcennalath says:

    OT here’s another ‘little’ thing to understand about Brexit which WM and their media has been hiding.

    A full business as usual transition deal might not be quite so full as they suggest!

    The temporary arrangement to continue trading in the single market won’t necessarily run to continuity of trade with all those third party countries which the EU has deals with.

    The UK obviously benefits from all those as a member, but after Brexitday it won’t be a member so whether the worldwide trade deals apply rather depends on whether the third parties feel it is to their benefit to continue to give the UK a good deal. Already some are saying, why should we, what’s in it for us?

    Disruption to worldwide trade beyond the EU will occur to some degree on Brexitday.

  61. JaMur says:

    He’s a big turnip. So stupid he can barely string a sentence together.
    Am I being harsh, wet brain syndrome?

  62. jfngw says:

    We can all relax as apparently the treasury forecast that Brexit would pretty much be a disaster didn’t analyse the government preferred trade deal option. Of course this deal is so groundbreaking that it needs to be kept under wraps, but rumours by those that they have seen an outline is that it looks pretty much like a horse but with a point bit on its head.

  63. Robert Louis says:

    Regarding Angus Robertson, can I just say he is the perfect person to head up indyref2. Let’s hope he at least is considered for it. Ticks all the boxes, and is, quite frankly a truly eloquent speaker and debater.

  64. gus1940 says:

    Dr. Jim @3.11

    ‘Partners Of The UK but not Equals’

    That’s a good one deserving of analysis.

  65. galamcennalath says:

    jfngw says:

    the government preferred trade deal …. looks pretty much like a horse but with a point bit on its head

    Their preferred deal … cherry picking all the good bits … it’s no longer about bullshit to garner votes, its a position half way between the two Tory factions. One side wants to just cancel, or go very soft. The other side want to drive the bus over a cliff.

    So what do they come up with? An outcome which gives both sides of the Tory chasm what they want. The EU have always rejected such a position. It won’t happen. So of course the economists of the civil service don’t waste effort on mythical beasts!

    May, Davis, etc are going to have to snap out of this soon, or the maniac bus drivers win.

    They have weeks to get the legal framing of phase one sorted, a transition deal, and an outline final deal which stands a chance of being accepted by the EU.

    If only that unicorn was symbolic of great things coming out of this for Scotland. However, I feel shambolic might be more appropriate so far.

    Still, in five years from now if we look back from iScotland and see WM meltdown as the pivotal moment on our path to Indy, well and good!

  66. Mike d says:

    Welsh sion. Got One of those, and the Scotland catalonia one.really nice.

  67. Mike d says:

    Gus 1940. Aye we should have that plastered on billboards leading up to indyref2. “Partners of the uk but not equals” .that should sort the don’t knows from the PSB’s.

  68. heedtracker says:

    He’ll eat the crayons next.

    Colin A,

    “If you are from a disadvantaged background, whatever your gender, you are NOT represented. You don’t count. You only count in the statistics for poverty and premature death.”

    You would have automatically voted red tory SLabour, to represent you once upon a time and then you saw what a pack of troughing, useless bunch SLabour were really like in 3 terms of Westminster power.

    Mind back in the early Bomber Blair years, his lawyer chum Derry Irvine, Labour’s legal adviser, blew hundreds of thousands, maybe a million of taxpayers dosh on redecorating his Westminster apartment, a hundred thousand G’s for his Pugin copy wallpaper but the red tory freak show refused flat out to build any social housing anywhere in their great UKOK zone?

  69. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    “The Named Person scheme was a ridiculous project…It was always going to be targeted at poor people”

    Utter rubbish. The Named Person Scheme is supported by all the professionals in the field and being opposed for political reasons by unscrupulous opponents who like nothing better than to distort proposals for silly gain.

    The same provisions are already in action very successfully in some areas.

    It is not top down and has nothing to do with anybody spying on anybody and is a sensible set of proposals to coordinate lots of activity and improve communications in the area of child welfare on information WHICH IS MOSTLY ALREADY HELD but not properly coordinated. More importantly it will make it easier to access help.

    The judgment against it was not against its aims and major procedures but about some of the wording which was not thought to be quite precise enough. In fact the judgement expressed very significant support for its aims and much of its provisions and asked that some possible ambiguities or lack of precision be sorted. That is all

  70. Phronesis says:

    Meanwhile – no good news about Brexit. A process that will trash the UKOK economy whilst Team GB is in denial about no longer being the epicenter of anyone’s universe. Scotland the country did not vote for this deranged political situation but WM hubris would maintain Scotland as the regional doormat in any matter that over-rules WM thinking and an electoral system that is dominated by England’s voting preferences. England is apparently a country in the UKOK democratic structure but Scotland is not.

    ‘That the British government has been led over the past eighteen months in the perilous adventure of Brexit by a Prime Minister who clearly realizes the damage this reckless venture may impose on her country, but feels powerless to prevent it, has been a personal humiliation for her and exposed this country to scorn and ridicule abroad.
    Not the least of the ironies of Brexit is that if Boris Johnson had been in charge of the Brexit negotiations over the last eighteen months, the whole implausible project might well have collapsed long ago under the weight of its own contradictions, contradictions he would have exacerbated by his self-absorbed carelessness. It is debatable whether Mrs May has served her party well since she became Prime Minister. Her relative success in keeping the project of Brexit just about alive until now has certainly not served the country well’

    An epic failure to understand the concept of economic return on investment that other small economies understand very well that invest in their whole society.

    ‘Social value is the value that people place on the changes they experience in their lives. Some, but not all of this value is captured in market prices.
    The Principles of Social Value provide the basic building blocks for anyone who wants to make decisions that take this wider definition of value into account, in order to increase equality, improve wellbeing and increase environmental sustainability… generally accepted social accounting principles
    Its core values are;
    • Involve stakeholders.
    • Understand what changes.
    • Value the things that matter.
    • Only include what is material.
    • Do not over-claim.
    • Be transparent.
    • Verify the result.

    Value the things that matter- people,society, human rights, state protection, social and environmental justice-anathema to Westminster values.

  71. Mike d says:

    Fireproofjim 3.18pm. Agree, Angus Robertson ideal leader for yes2 campaign. It would also be great to get some Scottish celebrities, academics,writers, prominent lawyers,etc standing up this time,defying the establishment,and nailing their indy colours to the mast.

  72. Welsh Sion says:

    Mike d @ 5.30 pm

    It would also be great to get some Scottish celebrities, academics, writers, prominent lawyers, etc standing up this time,defying the establishment, and nailing their indy colours to the mast.


    Not a Scottish academic or writer (the clue is in the name), but I can happily refer you to the book “Parables for the New Politics” (available on Amazon. (Al mi own werk, guv. ‘Onest!)

  73. Mike d says:

    Ian brotherhood 3.46pm. Ian I suppose unionists wearing kilts on burns night, is a bit like the monkey wearing a fez for the organ grinder.

  74. K1 says:

    Aye…putting on their wee scoattish costumes to perform for their wee effete maisters.

  75. galamcennalath says:

    Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Named Person Scheme is supported by all the professionals in the field and being opposed for political reasons

    Indeed. It is also being opposed by some odd religious organisations. They may be simply fronts for the hard right. Or, they may the type of folks who hold ideological believes that children aren’t individuals with their own human rights, but merely chattels owned by parents to do with as they desire.

    It’s opposed by a particularly motley collection who IMO don’t have children’s interests foremost.

  76. Gary45% says:

    Surprised that “Genius?!” Kelly hasn’t come out with the old chestnut, ” Wales beat Scotland at Wugga because Labour run the Welsh Government.
    Expect Dick Lemming to come out with the line at FMQs this Thursday, whilst as usual making an erse of himself.

  77. galamcennalath says:

    A Brexit thought. A fundamental question. Just how much money is the UK willing to commit every year as ongoing payment to the EU?

    The fantasists say NONE, even for access to lots of EU goodies.

    A Korea/Canada deal for goods trade only would be none.

    Norways pays more per head outside the EU than the UK does net within. Seems to me a Norway type outcome would mean similar ongoing payments as now!

    English voters still seem split 50:50. How would they respond to being told the final deal will include ongoing payments?

    How would hard Brexiteers, UKIP, and the sub-fascist press respond?

    Shiteshow of the century in the making!

  78. Clapper57 says:

    In his defense Kelly does brilliantly in his ability to dumb down politics …..though it would appear it is not a talent unique or limited to Kelly alone as far as Labour in Scotland are concerned.

  79. colin alexander says:

    galamcennalath / Bob Mack

    The Supreme Court upheld that the Scottish Govt’s Named Person Scheme was “not according to law”. That -as initially proposed -it would breach the Article 8 Human Rights of people.

    It was a snoopers’ charter that would have abused people’s right to a private life.

    Despite repeatedly being warned this was the case, the Scot Govt arrogantly ignored the warnings. Even now, the amended version has struggled to get past the committee due to concerns that there is insufficient guidance in how to operate the scheme lawfully.

    Several professional bodies continue to have serious concerns about the scheme.

    That’s the facts despite how much some SNP supporters try to put a false gloss on the debacle.

  80. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    The Named Person Act is not a “snoopers charter”. There is no provision in it for any power that is not already legally in use.

  81. TD says:

    galamcennalath at 6.30 p.m.

    You are quite right to point out that the UK is likely to have to contribute to the EC on an ongoing basis unless we go for a no deal scenario. And I agree that most of those who support the act of self-harm that is brexit do not realise this. The divorce bill is just the beginning – there will be ongoing maintenance payments as well.

    But let’s be clear – the payments into the EC are good value for money. The benefits to the UK economy from being in the single market are huge. The membership fees sound a lot, but are actually quite insignificant compared to the benefits. Over and above that, what price do you put on the non-economic benefits – peace in Europe, co-operation on fighting crime, scientific co-operation?

    The issue for Scotland of course is do we allow ourselves to be dragged out of Europe or do we make a stand now and stay in. I know what I would choose. Independence is now even more vital than it was in 2014 – it is now the only realistic means for Scotland to remain in Europe, which is after all what we voted for.

  82. Dr Jim says:

    The understanding of politics for the very hard of thinking:

    Named person, OBFA, roads, bridges,railways, in fact anything the SNP try to do is opposed and not because anybody in any party says they care passionately about anything, it’s because the more things LAB/Tory/LibDem can stop the SNP doing the more things they can complain about the SNP NOT doing because they can then claim the people didn’t want it, then bring it up at the next election as SNPs failure to do anything while in office

    So politicians banging on about Ooh this is a flawed bill or a bad act don’t mean a word of it, they don’t care because it’s all just a political tactic to win, not to help people, winning is everything, not how they do it

    So for those who think they watch or study politics, look again, Labour Tory Lib Dem have been doing this for as long as I can remember it’s the only way they think they can win, it’s not about people

    We don’t count in the wider scheme of how these parties operate

    Thank God smarter folk see this and vote SNP the only Scottish party in Scotland

    And no the Greenshirts aren’t Scottish they belong in Russia in 1940

  83. colin alexander says:

    Meanwhile, in Scotland the mass slaughter of the mountain hare continues on the ruling classes’ highland estates.

    While the Scottish Govt twiddles it’s thumbs. Hares don’t have a vote; they don’t Scotland in Union and These Islands to campaign for them.

    Poisoning eagles and other raptors, slaughtering hares, overbreeding Red Deer so that they are half-starved and stunted growth.

    If poor people committed such animal cruelty, the Scot Govt would come down on them like a ton of bricks but, when it’s the Royals and their toff chums, the Scot Govt and the law give them the kid glove treatment.

    On Seeing A Wounded Hare

    INHUMAN man! curse on thy barb’rous art,
    And blasted be thy murder-aiming eye;
    May never pity soothe thee with a sigh,
    Nor ever pleasure glad thy cruel heart!

    Go live, poor wand’rer of the wood and field!
    The bitter little that of life remains:
    No more the thickening brakes and verdant plains
    To thee shall home, or food, or pastime yield.

    Seek, mangled wretch, some place of wonted rest,
    No more of rest, but now thy dying bed!
    The sheltering rushes whistling o’er thy head,
    The cold earth with thy bloody bosom prest.

    Oft as by winding Nith I, musing, wait
    The sober eve, or hail the cheerful dawn,
    I’ll miss thee sporting o’er the dewy lawn,
    And curse the ruffian’s aim, and mourn thy hapless fate.

    Robert Burns

  84. galamcennalath says:

    TD says:

    the payments into the EC are good value for money

    That’s certainly my assessment too.

    Allowing easy internal trade in both goods and services, negotiated some excellent trade deals with third parties, protecting European food production from poor quality crap available on the world market, setting high standards for all products, etc … all worth being part of.

    I wish it ensured members adhered to higher standards of democracy and lawmaking … with Spain and the UK in mind. However members are sovereign and the EU is primarily about business, production, finance, and trade.

  85. colin alexander says:

    Dave McEwan Hill

    Sharing data about people without their knowledge and consent, unless there are exceptional circumstances, such as a child protection issue, is against the law, the Data Protection Act and Human Rights Act.

    The Scottish Govt tried to justify it by saying the GIRFEC jargon of children’s “wellbeing”. The Supreme Court pointed out there is no such legal definition of wellbeing.

    It is already the law, that if a child is at significant risk of harm, data can be shared without consent.

    The Govt tried to allow sharing of data about families without their knowledge or consent, even where there was no child protection issue.

    An unlawful Big Brother is Watching You snoopers’ charter.

    This was the Scot Govts’ own mess, acting above the law, not the Tories or Labour or Greens that caused it.

  86. Hamish100 says:


    the Named Person act is to protect our children. To help fill in the gaps where wee ones in the past have suffered due to omissions in the system. The tories and the right wing prefer to offer no support but will be the first to complain if a wee one is hurt.

    snoopers charter? behave yirsel.

  87. stonefree says:

    @ GrahamB says:
    3 February, 2018 at 10:16 am

    “As far as I’ve been able to discover he’s not actually a qualified CA. He did “work in accountancy” but he might just have been a general gopher or maybe a tea-boy.” I suppose he could be a Certified Accountant , and by by not correcting people ,he lets them believe he’s Chartered
    Surely a Labour MSP would not be misleading??

  88. TheWasp says:

    Captain Colin must be on peace work now, maybe a couple of pence a word. Really raking it in this backshift.

  89. mike cassidy says:

    Ignore the trolls and they will go away.

    How hard is it to take the Rev’s advice on this?

  90. mike cassidy says:

    James Kelly’s qualifications here.

  91. stewartb says:

    Just re-read the full judgement of the Supreme Court on the ‘named person’ case – for the nth time, in case I’ve been missing something.

    Sources: and

    Once again I’ve come to this conclusion. On this important matter, I urge anyone who believes, or who is tempted to believe, the “snooper’s charter’ claim made earlier in this thread to read what the Supreme Court actually said and importantly why.

    The Court did indeed find the legislation flawed but redeemable by (just) IMPROVED GUIDANCE over, quite specifically, information sharing protocols.

    “… as currently drafted, the information sharing sections of Part 4 and the Guidance do not satisfy the requirement of being “in accordance with the law.”

    The reasons for the judgment then also includes:

    “Focusing on the proportionality of the legislation itself, Part 4 UNDOUBTEDLY PURSUES LEGITIMATE POLICY AIMS and is CLEARLY RATIONALLY CONNECTED TO THOSE AIMS.

    Allowing the legislature the appropriate margin of discretion, Part 4 IS ALSO A REASONABLE MEASURE for the legislature to impose in order to achieve THOSE LEGITIMATE AIMS.

    It is for this reason that the APPELLANTS’ BROAD CHALLENGE CANNOT SUCCEED. If a named person could be appointed only with parental consent, the scope for early intervention would be diminished.”

    The judgment also states that to address potential parental concerns:

    “Care should therefore be taken to emphasise the voluntary nature of the advice, information, support and help offered by the named person.” So not ruling against/ruling out but requiring “care”.

    That this has been done is a matter of clear, repeated public record.

    And: “There is therefore a need for clear guidance to information holders as to how to assess proportionality when considering whether information should be shared.”

    So once again not ruling against/ ruling out wholesale but, narrowly, requiring improved guidance. This has been accepted by the Scottish Government as far as I understand it.

  92. yesindyref2 says:

    Yeah, Angus Robertson. I was going to not renew that year, not really into political parties. But went to hustings with Angus either first or last of the four, and his take was that he was a steady pair of hands, and when I thought about it, one would have taken it to the left and wanted to reform local branches which seemed like a good idea, but as Angus pointed out that was their democratic job, not the party’s. Another wanted to get closer to councils as he was a councillor, and of course one would have made the EU what it was all about which was the thing of the moment.

    But they’re all single issues in their way, Angus was indeed the steady pair of hands. So I renewed just so I could vote for him. Ho hum!

    With hindsight though he was indeed 100% the right guy, the path towards Indy is a straight one with no diversions. no straying off to left or right or stopping on the way for a snackeroonie.

    Anyways, here’s what he’s doing now, and look at the others on the Council:

    The model particularly interests me for past reasons. Anf of course what a tool it would be for Indy Ref 2 …

  93. colin alexander says:


    Aye exactly, it “was not according to law”.

    Here is what the ICO says about the Named Person Scheme, Supreme Court Ruling:

    That all the professionals fully support it, is simply untrue:

  94. Mike d says:

    Dr jim 7.13pm. Quite Agree, I’m in my mid sixties and can look back and see these self serving liars for what they were and still are.And that is exactly how blue and red branch office operate. Lying self serving barstewards. Lets hope by indy ref2 young people see through these lying toads.

  95. colin alexander says:


    Thank you for saying I must be on “peace work”.

    Sadly, I think you meant “piece work”.

  96. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Colin Alexander at 7.28
    I don’t know why I am wasting my time with this

    “Sharing data about people without their knowledge and consent, unless there are exceptional circumstances, such as a child protection issue, is against the law, the Data Protection Act and Human Rights Act.”

    Exactly. The powers are there in”exceptional circumstance” already and there is no attempt to increase or change them.

  97. colin alexander says:

    I’ve always been impressed by Angus Robertson on TV.

    I wonder how much damage was caused to his reputation by his wife boasting of her wee black book of political contacts.

    Did that cost him votes due to the media seizing on that and suggesting cronyism, even though there was no proof that that was the case?

    You know the stuff: SNP bad.

  98. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    I sat in wonderment yesterday listening to the BBC describing the Scots Rugby team as the “best ever” etc etc in successive news broadcasts. I’ve never heard anything like it before about any UK rugby team as the BBC is usually entirely balanced on any such specific sort of judgement and doesn’t do it in fact. I haven’t heard any Scot actually claiming that either and said to my other half “What the **** is going on?” This is ridiculous”.

    I bet they were praying for the Scots to be thrashed and what a blow that would be to nasty Nicola, wouldn’t it.

    They don’t understand.

  99. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Can’t agree about Angus Robertson heading up IR2, I’m afraid. A steady pair of hands, indeed, and I’m sure he could make a significant contribution if he were free to do so, but I believe we need someone far more inspirational.

    Someone able to inspire heart in the doubters is what is needed.

    My own choice would be Jeane Freeman. Highly competent but also able to lift eyes up to the starry firmament. Heard her speak at one of the early meetings for IR1 and was immediately impressed at how she recognised that the prospect of independence was simultaneously both scary and full of promise.

    A personal choice that’s only been confirmed by events since.

  100. colin alexander says:

    Dave McEwan Hill

    Unfortunately, there have been cases where the current data sharing laws have also been abused by Social Workers et al which has caused considerable distress to the innocent victims.

    Those people are nearly always poor people from disadvantaged backgrounds who do not have the money, power and ability to take on Councils etc for abusing them.

    That is social work “professionals” etc abusing the law, abusing their power, not the Scot Govt, so don’t worry, so that is NOT an SNP bad comment.

  101. Iain says:

    Way waste your time comiting, Colin Alexander is a clone from the 77th brigade of the empire of England.

  102. K1 says:

    Y’know listening to Unionist’s like coco lying through their teeth about the NPS is exactly like listening to Ruth Davidson lying through her teeth to the First Minister about the NPS.

    Note the constant insinuation and the overt lies that Davidson states in this exchange on 21st September 2017 in a debate about the NPS, as at that point it is going through stage 1 of making the necessary amendments to the Bill in light of the Supreme Court’s ruling.

    Davidson literally states: ‘the Government has had to change its plans, because its first attempt was struck down by the Supreme Court.‘ An outright provable lie. Just as coco’s entire post @6.50pm above is an outright and provable lie, as stewartb outlined in his post @7.57pm above.

    The whole premise of her attacks on the NPS are utterly fallacious, without merit and extremely cynical. Exactly the same with coco on here on just about any subject concerning our parliament, our constitution and our legislative processes.

    It is not a ‘snooper’s charter’, it has never been a ‘snooper’s charter’, was never conceived of as a ‘snooper’s charter’ and anyone, anyone even utilising that term is a Tory and unionist, because that is exactly where that term emanated from in the Unionist press, expressly from the Tories in Scotland.

    The Supreme Court did not rule the NPS was ‘illegal’ in any way whatsoever. To quote FM Sturgeon from below: ‘it pointed to what it saw as problems and flaws with the information-sharing provisions.’

    For coco or anyone to state this outright lie: ‘The Supreme Court upheld that the Scottish Govt’s Named Person Scheme was “not according to law”. That -as initially proposed -it would breach the Article 8 Human Rights of people. Is an utter fabrication and misrepresentation of the facts. Or to put it another way: he’s an absolute lying bastard.

    Here’s the entire exchange between FM and Davidson from that debate on the NPS:

    Ruth Davidson Conservative

    1. Yesterday, legal experts warned the Parliament that, when teachers become named persons, they will need to have lawyers “on speed dial”. With that in mind, does the First Minister have full confidence in the changes that she is making to the named person legislation?

    Nicola Sturgeon Scottish National Party:

    Yes, I do. As Ruth Davidson is aware—and, indeed, as the whole Parliament is aware—the bill that is currently before Parliament to make amendments to previous legislation in light of the Supreme Court judgment, the Children and Young People (Information Sharing) (Scotland) Bill, is currently at stage 1. Indeed, the comments that Ruth Davidson refers to were made, I understand, in stage 1 evidence to the Education and Skills Committee. The bill is designed to address concerns that were raised by the Supreme Court, while allowing the principles of the named person to proceed. It should be remembered that the Supreme Court found that the named person service was

    “unquestionably legitimate and benign”.

    We will, of course, continue to listen to all the views that are expressed in Parliament as the bill proceeds. Where a case is made for amendments at later stages of the process, that will be fully considered, as Parliament would expect.

    Ruth Davidson Conservative:

    It is clear that some of the people who are going to have to implement the measures do not share the confidence of the First Minister. As we know, and as the First Minister has rightly said, the Government has had to change its plans, because its first attempt was struck down by the Supreme Court. The trouble is that we are now learning that there are significant problems with the proposed remedy, which is going to put professionals in an impossible position, pushing teachers and health workers into a legal minefield, with a need to weigh up complex legal arguments about whether sharing information is proportionate or not. As the Faculty of Advocates made clear yesterday, those workers could end up

    “damned if you do, damned if you don’t”.

    Does the First Minister really think that it is fair to put already overburdened teachers and health workers in that position?

    The First Minister:

    As every member is aware, a range of different views will be expressed during stage 1 consideration of any bill. As is our responsibility, Government listens carefully to those views and considers them as the bill proceeds through Parliament. That is the normal way in which draft legislation is taken forward.

    It is important to say a number of things on the matter. The bill provides clarity and consistency by introducing a new requirement for named person service providers to consider whether sharing information could

    “promote, support or safeguard the wellbeing of the child or young person.”

    This part is particularly important: the bill also provides for a binding code of practice, which will ensure that appropriate safeguards are in place to protect the sharing of information. Of course, Parliament will be fully consulted on the code of practice, as on the eventual legislation.

    I appreciate that Ruth Davidson is referring to comments that were made during stage 1 consideration. We listened carefully to all those comments. It is worth also looking at some of the comments that were made earlier when the Education and Skills Committee made a call for evidence. The General Medical Council in Scotland said:

    “We warmly welcome the proposed move away from creating a mandatory duty to share information”.

    The Royal College of General Practitioners Scotland said:

    “We welcome the amended wording of the Bill”.

    The Nursing and Midwifery Council said:

    “We can currently see no conflict between the draft legislation proposed and our own regulatory approaches”.

    The Law Society of Scotland said:

    “The move from a duty to share to a power to share information” is helpful. Those are just some of the comments that were made.

    We can all quote, backwards and forwards, comments about the bill, but the Scottish Parliament has an established legislative process and the role of the committee at stage 1 is to listen to those comments. Then, the committee will publish a stage 1 report and the Government will consider that fully and whether any amendments are justified at a later stage of the bill. That is the normal process. It is the one that will be followed here and I encourage all members to take part in it.

    Ruth Davidson Conservative:

    I hear the First Minister’s points, and I have the submissions to the committee here. However, even those who are in favour of the scheme are warning about how it will be done. The Royal College of Nursing, which supports the principle of the scheme, has made it clear that it does not support it going ahead without the right resources being in place and worries that the whole plan could be reduced to “a tick-box exercise”.

    We have a scheme that has already been barred by the Supreme Court and now we have a replacement plan that even supporters think is deeply flawed. Again I have to ask, does the First Minister think that it looks like being a success?

    The First Minister:

    First, I will correct what Ruth Davidson said about the Supreme Court judgment, which was specifically about the information-sharing provisions and did not say that the whole scheme was illegal. In fact, a moment ago, I quoted the Supreme Court’s comments about the named person scheme overall.

    Secondly, Ruth Davidson mentioned resources. Obviously those are extremely important and an additional £1.2 million is being provided to support training and development relating to the changes to information sharing—that is just one example of the resource issue.

    I come back to my central point—and I suppose that I want to make it to any stakeholders who might be listening as well as to Ruth Davidson and the chamber: the reason why we have a legislative process that involves in-depth stage 1 consideration by a committee is to allow stakeholders to put forward their points of view and to argue for any changes that they think are necessary. At the end of that part of the process, the Government will give those arguments due consideration. That is the proper process and every member in the chamber has now been through the legislative process on at least one or more bills.

    Changes are made to bills regularly and that is the process we require to go through. I encourage everybody to continue to contribute to the process. At the end of it, we intend to have rectified the issues highlighted by the Supreme Court and to have in place a system that has, as its central purpose—and let none of us ever lose sight of it—the greater protection of vulnerable children, which is surely one of the most important responsibilities of us all.

    Ruth Davidson Conservative:

    I am not sure how reassured stakeholders will be by that answer. It has been clear to Conservatives for years that the named person scheme, as designed, simply will not work. However, the Scottish Government is still ploughing ahead with it.

    After five years of debating the issue back and forwards, here is where we are at: a second attempt at legislation that even its supporters say is flawed; that legal experts say is confused; and that teachers and health workers warn will be an enormous burden for them.

    I ask the First Minister, in all good faith, can we not just start again with a blank sheet of paper? Everyone in the chamber wants to protect vulnerable children, but we need to do it within the law.

    The First Minister:

    I am glad that, eventually and after all her questions, Ruth Davidson managed to mention vulnerable children, because they are at the centre of all this.

    I will try to deal with this respectfully. We have a difference of opinion between the Scottish National Party and the Conservatives. The Conservatives disagree with the named person scheme in principle. I do not go along with that but I respect their right to do so. However, the Supreme Court did not uphold the view of the Scottish Conservatives that the named persons scheme was illegal; it pointed to what it saw as problems and flaws with the information-sharing provisions. The bill is about rectifying those flaws.

    We are at the start of a legislative process in which stakeholders make their views known and we consider them. That is the process that we should engage in.

    Of course we can continue to debate the rights and wrongs of the scheme. But Ruth Davidson should not try to give the impression that the Supreme Court said that the whole scheme was illegal, because it did not do that. I think that she knows that.

    We will proceed to make sure that all of the provisions are, as Ruth Davidson says, clearly within the law. As we do that, we will consider all the views that are raised.

    We will also go forward with the central purpose firmly in mind: that this is about the greater protection of vulnerable children. That is the most important part of the whole debate.


    Like Davidson, not worthy of the FM’s intelligence and knowledge, coco is not worthy of ours.

  103. Petra says:

    A MUST read, imo.

    ‘Is the Scottish Office preparing to intercept Scotland’s returning EU powers?’

    ”….I have been providing evidence to this effect since the EU referendum was called, and to be honest, sometimes I feel I have been banging my head against a brick wall. However, last week I was invited to give evidence to the Westminster committee investigating the Brexit Trade Bill and that offered the chance to point out that my research leads to the inescapable conclusion that Brexit is actually incompatible with devolution (watch the video here).

    For example, healthcare is devolved, and any future trade deal with the US or current ones being rewritten by the Trade Deal Bill (such as with Canada) that could involve access to NHS contracts for North American companies would therefore be subject to a veto by each of the devolved administrations.

    Ipso facto, the UK Government does not have the powers it needs to negotiate third nation trade deals, unless it takes powers back from the Scottish Government….

    I would go further though, and suggest Westminster will also need to transfer powers currently devolved to the Scottish Parliament to the Scotland Office for the purpose of agreeing trade deals, and circumnavigating the Scottish Parliament’s consent….

    Over and over again Scotland has been told that new powers will come to Scotland post-Brexit, and so the only option I can see for the UK Government is to transfer returning EU powers to the Scotland Office, thus denying them to the Scottish Parliament whilst claiming the promise of returning them to Scotland has been met…..”


    ‘Westminster Trade Bill Committee told that Devolution and Brexit are incompatible.’

  104. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    K1 @ 21:19,

    I know, I know, I’m just not sure that CoCo deserves all the hard work you put into that rebuttal. He janks all the obvious chains and people still respond. There are useful reminders of the realities in these replies, so it’s by no means all wasted, but it does stuff thread after thread full of his unprompted distractions.

    Personally I would prefer we stick to our own themes and let him go hang.

  105. Petra says:

    Trade Bill Committee Meetings.


    Trade Bill Committee

    Tuesday 30 January 2018 Meeting started at 9.25am, ended 11.26am.


    Trade Bill Committee

    Tuesday 30 January 2018 Meeting started at 2.00pm, ended 5.05pm.

    Trade Bill Committee

    Tuesday 30 January 2018 Meeting started at 5.30pm, ended 7.03pm.


    Trade Bill Committee

    Thursday 1 February 2018 Meeting started at 11.30am, ended 1.08pm.

  106. Croompenstein says:

    Angus ripped the pish clean out of them every week at PMQ’s and they hated him with a vengeance. They hated him so much that they called a ‘snap’ general election for ‘strong and stable’ govt.

    The election was pre-planned and yoon vote rigging was put in place. They shut down democracy in Scotland and claimed the scalps of some of our best.

    Angus Is Gone, Long Live Angus 🙂

    “Away to the hills, to the caves, to the rocks
    Ere I own an usurper, I’ll couch with the fox;
    And tremble, false Whigs, in the midst of your glee,
    You have not seen the last of my bonnet and me!”

  107. Bill not Ben says:

    When i look at someone like Richard Leonard leading the scottish labour party, what i see is a yorkshire unionist put up here to do what he is told by westminster head office, i had never heard of the guy until he came here
    I have seen this before over the years, in my own area we had a few yorkshire people put up as our labour candidate in general elections, and they all won the safe labour seat, then they did sweet fa, so never trust a yorkshire labour unionist, they go back down the road and use their scottish vote to help the labour party in england, it make me sick to see what they got away with, and the people kept voting for these wasters, honestly they would have been better voting in a monkey

  108. K1 says:

    It’s important to disavow some ‘noxious’ stuff surrounding the NPS Robert J, I give zero flying fucks about coco…but if anyone is gong to blatantly lie on the forums with no come backs, then it stands uncorrected.

    It’s not all about him, its about what is on record, ‘that’ information needs to be put out there as ‘factual’ reference not as mailesque rhetoric and outright lies about what the Supreme Court actually ruled on this matter.

    Maybe just one person reads it and thinks…hmm….bit better informed now about the stushie surrounding the Court’s judgement and the lies being perpetuated by the likes of himself’ on here about NPS.

    There are sometimes occasions when rebuttal’s need to be ‘full’ and ‘extensive’. The SNPbad on NPS is one that imv needs alert and constant attention. Until it is firmly on the statute books and can be seen for what it always was, as NS said herself in that debate:

    ‘…that this is about the greater protection of vulnerable children. That is the most important part of the whole debate.’

    Rather than being maligned as a ‘snooper’s charter’ and all other manner of lying rhetoric that has gained traction because of the Tory campaign to undermine the entire Bill from the go get.

  109. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Croompenstein @ 21:28,

    Yes, he was a consummate WM parliamentary performer.

    I have no idea what his own inclinations are – he could well be heartily sick of the fickleness of an ungrateful electorate and the instablility of political life – and who could blame him? – but I would very much like to see him eventually in our proper parliament instead of that useless circus down south.

  110. colin alexander says:


    Praise to the SNP for opposing the Tory attempts at repealing the fox hunting restrictions in England and Wales.

    Also, it was the Scottish Parliament in 2002 that banned foxes being ripped apart by dogs whilst still alive.

    Unfortunately, the legislation isn’t working as well as hoped and is WEAKER than the legislation in England and Wales because, in Scotland, unlimited numbers of hounds can be used compared to two in E&W.

    See here for more info:

  111. Capella says:

    OT Bill Forsyth is directing a musical version of “Local Hero” with David Greig writing the script and music by Mark Knopfler of Dire Straits.

    Glasgow writer and director Forsyth’s other films include Gregory’s Girl and Comfort and Joy.
    David Greig, an acclaimed playwright as well as theatre director, said: “Local Hero is one of those great Scottish stories that has captured the imaginations of people across the world, it has been one of my favourite films since I first saw it as a teenager.”
    Local Hero is due to open at The Lyceum in Spring 2019 before transferring to The Old Vic in London.

    I heard them discuss it on GMS today. Gillian Marles asserted that she was not looking forward to seeing it. She didn’t say why. So I’m wondering if she doesn’t like musicals or is it the Cringe kicking in?

  112. heedtracker says:

    See here for more info:

    Good to see you finally go SNPout nuts Colin A.

    See here for more info about our neighbours. What region of teamGB has this The Graun ligger left out Colin A, as per and why would he do that?

    “France and England will never be powers comparable to the United States,” the West German chancellor at the time, Konrad Adenauer, told the French foreign minister. “Not Germany either. There remains to them only one way of playing a decisive role in the world: that is to unite Europe … We have no time to waste; Europe will be your revenge.”

    Once again, Britain has overplayed its hand. Preferring to live in the past rather than learn from it, we find ourselves diminished in the present and clueless about the future.”

    We really need a new name for Brexit England Colina A, Brengland?

  113. colin alexander says:


    Ruth Davidson called the NPS legislation illegal. It wasn’t illegal, it was “not according to law” which is much less serious: Illegal usually means involving committing a crime.

    I, at no point, suggested the Scot Govt were acting illegally. Do not class me with her. However, acting not according to law is not acceptable either.

    I posted what the ICO said. The legislation as it initially written breached the rights of children and families. Potentially doing more harm than good.

    Of course we all want children protected from harm.
    But we must do it in the best way. In ways that do not damage the relationship between doctors, teachers, social workers etc and children and families.

    Because, more harm can happen if people can no longer trust them and will no longer cooperate with support agencies.

    When any discussion results in: “SNP perfect, criticisms are Army special ops and spies undermining the Scot Govt”, then it starts to make people look paranoid and undermines the excellent work by Stu showing the real distortion of the facts by the unionist parties and their allies in the media.

  114. Bob Mack says:

    @Colin Alexander,

    Codswallop. You know very little about the field of child protection. Right now ,as we write, there are thousands of children being abused in one fashion or another across Scotland. This is in spite of them already having secure relationships with Doctors ,Nurses and other professionals.

    They attend school and are still being abused. They go to their gP and are still being abused. They say nothing because they are afraid and because of stigma.

    We need to make that disappear.

  115. heedtracker says:

    When any discussion results in: “SNP perfect, criticisms are Army special ops and spies undermining the Scot Govt”, then it starts to make people look paranoid and undermines the excellent work by Stu showing the real distortion of the facts by the unionist parties and their allies in the media.”

    Its not that Colin A, as you know full well, it’s your silly pretence at NOT being a hard core SNP out dude.

    That’s what puzzles basically Colin A, your cheezee, “I’m an SNP and YES vote but,” btl fraud.

    Ofcourse you want SNPout and like all yoon culture, you go for SNPout stuff in everything SNP does.

    Why not, its what democratic opposition is all about.

    You have the whole of the SNP out, Scotland’s a shithole British region UK media, led by excruciatingly expensive BBC Scotland gimp network, but its interesting that you think its still not enough. Well not interesting, heartening really.

  116. galamcennalath says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says:

    My own choice would be Jeane Freeman.

    Mine too. Heard her live at a small IndyRef1 event. Awesome.

    Anyone have any doubts, watch her with Andrew Neil! from 1:14

    As always, he makes invalid assertions and then frames a question round them. She has none of that, rips his points to shreds, then goes on to make her points. I have never heard anyone get the better of him like that. No one.

  117. Croompenstein says:

    Yoons like colin a, ‘here’s to you phillip robertson’ and the rock are shit scared of these guys.. 🙂

  118. Dr Jim says:

    Jeane Freeman is indeed a formidable woman, who can forget her slapping down and educating Brillo that SNP women are a lot smarter than him

    That was a lovely moment, still savour it

  119. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    K1 @ 9.19pm

    Brilliant post, very helpful. Particularly the comments highlighting the move away from compulsory information-sharing, to voluntarily sharing (depending on circumstances, of course).

  120. cirsium says:

    Look at the membership of the Scottish Policy Foundation

    It includes Douglas Alexander, Lord Andrew Dunlop, Jayne Anne Gadhia (virgin Money and guest at Mrs May’s Burns Supper)

    Where is the funding coming from?

    No wonder Angus Robertson is stepping down. Membership of this Think Tank is incompatible with holding office in the SNP.

  121. colin alexander says:

    I am not a Unionist. I am very pro-independence.

    I challenge anyone to show me any anti-independence comments from me.

    You can’t: I haven’t made any.

  122. colin alexander says:

    “Membership of this Think Tank is incompatible with holding office in the SNP.”

    How? They are not a Think Tank. They give grants to Think Tanks. At first sight it’s about funding research etc into devolved issues, not Union v Indy. The SNP are primarily pro-devolution. They are the devolution govt of Scotland.

    But, it’s hard to judge with no accounts and no details of funds received or grants made whether they are politically biased.

  123. K1 says:

    You are literally full of crap coco. You have failed to refer to your further comments regarding NPS @6.50pm on this thread:

    ‘The Supreme Court upheld that the Scottish Govt’s Named Person Scheme was “not according to law”. That -as initially proposed -it would breach the Article 8 Human Rights of people.’

    Outright Lie. Number 1. No it did not. ‘it pointed to what it saw as problems and flaws with the information-sharing provisions. The bill is about rectifying those flaws.’

    ‘It was a snoopers’ charter that would have abused people’s right to a private life.’

    Outright Lie. Number 2. No it wasn’t. ‘it pointed to what it saw as problems and flaws with the information-sharing provisions. The bill is about rectifying those flaws.’

    ‘Despite repeatedly being warned this was the case, the Scot Govt arrogantly ignored the warnings. Even now, the amended version has struggled to get past the committee due to concerns that there is insufficient guidance in how to operate the scheme lawfully.’

    Outright Lie. Number 3. No they didn’t, because there was no ruling that decided it was a ‘snoopers charter’. There is absolutely no arrogance on the part of Scots gov at all with any of this? It wasn’t ‘insufficient guidance in how to operate the scheme lawfully’, that is absolute tosh. Because the ruling did not find fault with the Scheme at all and in fact, guess what the ruling was about in reality?: ‘it pointed to what it saw as problems and flaws with the information-sharing provisions. The bill is about rectifying those flaws.’

    ‘Several professional bodies continue to have serious concerns about the scheme.’

    Misleading statement. Stage 1 involves taking into consideration all stakeholders views, is part of the legislative process. That is what that debate is actually about, it is updating the parliament about where they are at in getting the amendments required by the Supreme Court’s ruling on the matter related to what the ‘actual’ ruling was, you getting it yet?: ‘…pointed to what it saw as problems and flaws with the information-sharing provisions. The bill is about rectifying those flaws.

    ‘That’s the facts despite how much some SNP supporters try to put a false gloss on the debacle’.

    Absolute lie, those were not the ‘facts’ those were a bunch of provable lies heaped on top of assertions that have zero foundation in reality.


    Now you come back with:

    ‘I, at no point, suggested the Scot Govt were acting illegally. Do not class me with her. However, acting not according to law is not acceptable either.’

    Did ye no, aye?

    Aye ye did, you literally wrote: ‘The Supreme Court upheld that the Scottish Govt’s Named Person Scheme was “not according to law”. That -as initially proposed -it would breach the Article 8 Human Rights of people.’You ‘inferred’ illegality and dressed it up as ‘not according to law’.

    ‘I posted what the ICO said. The legislation as it initially written breached the rights of children and families. Potentially doing more harm than good.’

    No ye didn’t, you proffered an opinion that ‘you think’ they said that. You did not state that in your @6.50pm post. Why didn’t you go right to sources, Stewartb provided the actual ruling itself? Nicola Sturgeon is on record and most of us have known since the ruling, what the actual ruling was? Want a clue about the essence of the ruling?:

    ‘it pointed to what it saw as problems and flaws with the information-sharing provisions. The bill is about rectifying those flaws.

    That’s an irrefutable ‘fact’, it doesn’t matter what somebody else said…you provided no source or link. Do you not know about the internet and how easy it is to find out the information before posting an ‘assertion’ without checking sources and affiliations of those you cite as your sources?

    Then your measly worded next paragraph:

    ‘But we must do it in the best way. In ways that do not damage the relationship between doctors, teachers, social workers etc and children and families.’

    Is there some doubt the the Scottish Government has in any way facilitated the spurious notion that relationships between ‘doctors, teachers, social workers etc and children and families’ would in some way be damaged by this legislation. Or is that the view of the Tory party and the right wing press in their entire response to the NPS for the past few years?

    You specifically charged that the SNP got this wrong and have created a ‘snooper’s charter’ ‘that would have abused peoples right to a private life’ You have specifically stated that the Scot Govt ‘arrogantly’ ignored the warnings’. You have literally just stated the NPS is not ‘lawful’?

    And then this to top it all:

    ‘When any discussion results in: “SNP perfect, criticisms are Army special ops and spies undermining the Scot Govt”, then it starts to make people look paranoid and undermines the excellent work by Stu showing the real distortion of the facts by the unionist parties and their allies in the media.’

    No one is doing ‘SNPperfect’ on here ever. You ‘assert’ that with absolutely nothing to back it up. There is however only one person on here who worked hard this evening at making sure they give the impression, that the SNP were or at fault wrt NPS, and that’s you.

    You undermined the Scots gov on this issue, you lied though your teeth about what is actually on record wrt the Supreme Court ruling. You then outrightly accused the SNP of getting it wrong.

    The reality is the Tory party with the full backing of the msm are pushing that narrative every single day and you have just shown you are part of the problem, you ‘distorted the facts’ on this matter and then attempted to backtrack. You are more like Ruth Davidson than you can ever admit.

  124. heedtracker says:

    You can’t: I haven’t made any.

    All you ever do is SNP out, monster FM Sturgeon, use the mainstay SNP yoon stuff etc.

    Its fine Colin A, you all do it, deception is the yoon culture DNA in your Scotland region.

  125. ronnie anderson says:

    O//T .
    “As a civil servant in London, and being part of the establishment, I always accepted the general view that an independent Scotland would not be able to survive on its own without financial help from the London Exchequer.

    However, when in 1968 I was able to examine the so-called “books” for the first time, I was shocked to find that the position was exactly the opposite and that Scotland contributed much more to the UK economy than its other partners. This was, of course, before the oil boom.

    I realised that the Treasury would wish to keep this a secret, as it might feed nationalistic tendencies north of the border, which at that time were very weak. I took the decision to keep an eye on the situation to see how long it would take for the true facts to emerge, which I felt would only be a short time. However, the Treasury and the Establishment did an excellent job, aided and abetted by the media, to keep the myth about Scotland alive.

    In fact it took another 30 years before the first chink in their armour started to appear. This came unexpectedly on 13 January 1997 when, in reply to a series of questions put by SNP Leader in the Commons, Alex Salmond MP to the then Tory government, Treasury Minister William Waldegrave admitted that Scotland had paid a massive £27 billion more to the London Exchequer than it had received since the Tories came to power in 1979. Statistically this works out at £5,400 for every Scot.

    There were no attempts to refute these figures, which caused much embarrassment to the Tory Government of the day. However, the facts were quickly covered up by the Unionist controlled media.

    Then a year later with a Labour government now in power came a further bombshell. Following further promptings by the SNP, on 21 August 1998, Mr Salmond received a letter from the House of Commons Library (ref. 98/8/56 EP/rjt) which gave a table showing that based on Scotland’s GDP per capita, Scotland would occupy 7th place in the world’s wealth league. The UK was at 17th Place.

    When the Labour government came to power it announced a 1p cut in the standard rate of income tax. From my detailed knowledge of income tax, I felt that this was the worst possible thing that they could do, as extra monies would be needed following on from the Thatcher era, if they were to fulfil even a fraction of their promises to the electorate. I came to the conclusion, and I still feel that I was right, that this was done by Labour to prove to the voters of Middle England that they could match the Tories in tax cuts.

    Despite the disclosures of 1998, attempts to deceive the Scottish electorate did not end there. In March 1999 a Labour Party leaflet appeared which said that if the SNP were to forego Gordon Brown’s 1p cut in the standard rate of income tax, every family in Scotland would be £250 worse off. This became the major topic of a TV debate between Alex Salmond and Donald Dewar. Salmond tried to point out to Dewar that he was using the wrong figures. Watching the debate, I saw Dewar’s eyes roll in his head for a few moments but he carried on regardless.

    After the debate it took the Labour Party a whole week to admit that they were wrong. There was in fact a whole chain of errors which the Labour Party tried to blame on “printing mistakes”. However Labour could not deny the fact that in their calculations the UK average figure, which included the high wage earners in the city of London and the booming economy in the South East corner of England (which if I may say so were the result of the selfish policies of Mrs Margaret Thatcher), the figure used was almost double those of the average Scottish wage which at that time stood at £17,000 per year.

    Looking closely at the figures and taking the year 2006 as a benchmark, I found that Scotland had an annual relative surplus of £2,8 billion, which works out at £560 for every man, woman and child. In contrast the UK had a deficit of £34.8 billion.

    In November 2006, the U.N. published its annual “Human Development Index”. For the sixth year running, oil rich Norway topped the list, and won on such factors as generous welfare payments, education, high income and a long life expectancy. Norway, has of course, less than a third of the amount of oil than Scotland in its waters. Norway wisely created an “oil fund” in 1995 which in 5 years reached a total of £250 billion, so that Norway sailed through the Credit Crunch.

    Who are the real subsidy junkies?

    Any lingering doubt that Scotland more than pays its way, or survives on subsidies, was dispelled by a new report published in October 2007. Whilst the Daily Mail, which by no stretch of the imagination could be described as a supporter of Scottish nationalism, devoted a whole page to the analysis of the report which was based on tax paid per capita as against spending, Northern Ireland received £4,212 more than it paid in tax, North East England £3,133, Wales £2,990, N.W. England £1732, South West England £978, West Midlands £931, East Midlands £185 and lastly Scotland £38. Only the South East corner produced a small surplus due to tax paid on the high wages within the city of London at this time (pre-Credit Crunch).


    It is no longer refuted that Scotland exports more per capita than the rest of the UK. In 1968 when I first discovered that Scotland was in surplus in relation to the rest of the UK, its exports could be broken down into whisky, meat, timber, fish, and of course tourism which is a huge hidden income. Those exports are supported by a population of only 5,000,000 as against 45,000,000 for the rest of the UK, quite a substantial advantage.

    With the oil boom, Scotland’s economy was transformed. Scottish oil has to date funded the Treasury with £300 billion, which has pushed Scotland up from 7th place in World Wealth rankings, had it been in control of its own resources, to 3rd place.

    On 29 May 2008, Labour Chancellor Alistair Darling admitted in a back-handed way, that Scotland’s oil revenue had been underwriting the UK’s failure to balance its books for decades. There is still 30 years of oil supply left in the North Sea (some 150 million barrels) valued at 2008 prices at 1 trillion dollars. This excludes the new fields being brought into production in deeper waters west of Shetland.

    Meantime whisky exports, which I listed in 1968 as one of Scotland’s top assets, have risen at a phenomenal rate. For example, whisky exports to China amounted to £1 million in 2000/2001, by 2007 they had risen to £70 million. They have continued to rise, although I don’t have more recent statistics.

    On the economies of Independence, Scotland has also 18 times its requirements in North Sea gas, which on current trading is more expensive than oil. The country exports 24% of its surplus electricity south of the Border, with much of the back-up by Hydro Electric unused.

    Even if nuclear is excluded, the future looks bright, the new Glen Doe hydro station on Loch Ness which was opened by Scotland’s First Minister last year can produce enough electricity for 240,000 homes. Further projects down the Loch which have now reached the planning stage will increase this to over 1,000,000 homes. Wind and wave energy will also contribute significantly in the future.

    No doubt as the time draws nearer to the referendum on Scottish Independence, politicians will do their best to distort the figures, but the truth is something that never varies.”

    Before retiring, John was a senior civil servant in the Inland Revenue, working for the Accountant & Comptroller General’s Branch based at Somerset House in London. His duties involved liaising closely with Treasury officials to prepare accounts and financial information for UK government ministers.

  126. K1 says:

    Thanks for the toy Stu,, we’ve aw hud a great chew…there’s nuthin’ left o’ it. Now get it tae fuck.

  127. louis.b.argyll says:

    Contrary Alexander.

  128. Fireproofjim says:

    According to several Sunday papers a hard Brexit cabal is forming to depose Theresa May.
    The plan is to install Boris as PM, Jacob Rees Mogg as Chancellor, and Michael Gove as Home Sec.
    Oh please, please. I’ve been good.
    This would be just great for Inderef2. Can you imagine what your average long term, working class, faithful Labour voter would make of that shower. The SNP would be weighing the votes. (At least I hope so)

  129. ronnie anderson says:

    Three fucking times I’ve tried to post & not been shown a fucking idiot can post 11 times with his shite .

    Rev am getting totally pished aff .

  130. K1 says:

    That’ll be the right wing coup we were all on about during indyref1 Fireproofjim, if we get a Tory govt in 2015 (never gonnae happen cried Labour voters in Scotland) and an EU ref as promised if they did get a majority (never gonnae happen cried Labour voters in Scotland) and we leave the EU in 2016 (never gonnae happen cried everyone in Scotland) then we’ll end up wi Boris Johnson as PM (never gonnae happen cried Labour voters in Scotland).

    What say you now: Labour voters in Scotland?

  131. colin alexander says:



    P.46 Section 106.

    There you will find how the Supreme Court upheld the Appellants’ Appeal.

    The court rejected a) The appellants argued it was a reserved (WM) matter. The court disagreed.

    The court upheld the appeal as it said b) and c) were not in accordance with the law.

    Not illegal, but “not in accordance with the law”.

    The court called it a “disproportionate interference in the Article 8 rights of many young persons, children and parents, through the sharing of private information..”.

    I accept snoopers charter is not the best choice of phrase. It’s more of a sweety wife, fish wife, gossips charter.

  132. ronnie anderson says:

    success at last one post all day , good night .

  133. colin alexander says:

    ronnie anderson

    I didn’t want to go on about the NPS. K1 was on a rant at me based on a misunderstanding of the SC ruling.

    Hopefully, the matter is settled now with the ruling quoted.

    Sorry, if you feel I’ve posted too much.

    Floor is yours, my fellow Winger.

  134. colin alexander says:

    ronnie anderson

    I’ll go off this site soon for a while, cos too busy in my life.

    So there, good news for you.

    So, please stick with it. I don’t want to put anyone off.

  135. K1 says:

    ‘…through the sharing of private information..”.’

    I state again what the ruling concerned, from NS’s mouth no less:

    ‘it pointed to what it saw as problems and flaws with the information-sharing provisions. The bill is about rectifying those flaws.’

    You have merely made my point for me.

    You distorted the facts. That is the point? You see how you missed out the ‘crucial qualifier’ in your earlier lies? Because that is in fact what you did. There is no disputing your own distortions on this whole matter.


  136. heedtracker says:

    colin alexander says:
    4 February, 2018 at 12:04 am
    ronnie anderson

    I’ll go off this site soon for a while, cos too busy in my life.

    Don’t go Colin A. Its coz you’re such a fraud but you’re also a dreary reminder of how yoon tory fraud works in the UKOK zone democracy.

    Its just as bad here with orange hitler too.

    So keep it coming Colin A, democracies like your Scotland region’s need to see just how low yoon culture can sink.

  137. Famou15 says:

    There is nothing good about Colin Alexander. He is now pretending concern at the Named Person and belittling it to a gossip level.

    If only these Tory bastards like CA could see what damage is done to children. Thankfully not common but more than the terrible cases that end in death and are publicised.

    The Scottish Government have my support and probably the majority of those professionally involved like teachers, police and social workers.

  138. K1 says:

    Why not quote the whole thing in context then?

    Because then we can all see ‘exactly’ what ‘in accordance with the Law’ is followed by, we actually then realise the ‘context’ of that term and what it refers to? (btw, you couldn’t even quote that one part correctly in your haste to do down our government)

    And we also see right away that 106. specifically dealt with ‘the information-sharing provisions of Part 4 of the Act’.

    It is certainly not how you utilised that terms in your little rant @6.50pm, is it? Doesn’t bear the slightest bit of resemblance to any of the points you raised at all, does it?

    But that is not at all what you led this forum to believe, is it? Honesty and truth was not what you were attempting to convey. You are a distorter of truth and an outright liar.

    ‘106. In summary, we conclude that the information-sharing provisions of Part 4 of the Act (a) do not relate to reserved matters, namely the subject matter of the DPA and the Directive, (b) are incompatible with the rights of children, young persons and parents under article 8 of the ECHR because they are not “in accordance with the law” as that article requires, (c) may in practice result in a disproportionate interference with the article 8 rights of many children, young persons and their parents, through the sharing of private information, and (d) are not incompatible with EU law in any way which goes beyond their incompatibility with article 8 of the ECHR. We are satisfied that it is not possible to remedy this defect by reading down the provisions under section 101 of the Scotland Act 1998. Conclusion (b) therefore means that the information-sharing provisions of Part 4 of the Act are not within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament.’


    But look there’s more…turns out the Scottish ministers and the democratic legislature have an opportunity to ‘remedy’ this aspect. Specifically page 48, section 109 outlines exactly what the Scottish government are now in the process of doing?

    I still can’t see anywhere where there is even a sniff of a snooper’s charter or your amended ‘sweety wife, fish wife, gossips charter’ pejorative terms? Or where the arrogance by the Scottish government is called to account. You cherry picked parts of this judgement to attack the SNP specifically, there is absolutely no escaping that conclusion.

    ‘107. It would not be appropriate for this court to propose particular legislative solutions. But we can properly say the following. We do not think that amendment of the RDSG will get round the problem in conclusion (b) or be sufficient in itself to prevent many instances of disproportionate interference to which we refer in conclusion (c). Section 28 requires the specified public authorities merely to have regard to the guidance. In relation to conclusion (b), it is necessary to address the lack of clarity as to the relationship between the Act and the DPA, arising from the conflict between the provisions of sections 23, 26 and 27 of the Act and the non- disclosure provisions of the DPA, and, in particular, the confusion caused by sections 23(7) and 26(11) when read together with provisions of the DPA such as section 35(1).

    Further, in relation to conclusion (c), the Act, subordinate legislation, or binding “guidance”, should address the circumstances in which (i) the child, young person or parent should be informed of the sharing of information or (ii) consent should be obtained for the sharing of information, including confidential information. If the resolution of the problem in conclusion (b) leads to the authorisation of the disclosure of sensitive personal data, the problem identified in conclusion (c) will become even more acute as the sharing of such data will require a compelling justification. In short, changes are needed both to improve the accessibility of the legal rules and to provide safeguards so that the proportionality of an interference can be challenged and assessed. The reconsideration of the terms of the Act and the RDSG also provides an opportunity to minimise the risk of disproportionate interferences with the article 8 rights of children, young persons and parents. Consideration of these matters will involve policy questions which are the responsibility of the Scottish Ministers and the democratic legislature.

    108. Section 102 of the Scotland Act 1998 provides:

    “(1) This section applies where any court or tribunal decides that –
    (a) an Act of the Scottish Parliament or any provision of such an Act is not within the legislative competence of the Parliament …
    (2) The court or tribunal may make an order – …
    (b) suspending the effect of the decision for any period and on any conditions to allow the defect to be corrected.”

    109. We are of the view that this court should consider making an order under section 102(2)(b) of the Scotland Act 1998 to allow the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Ministers an opportunity, if so advised, to correct the defects which we have identified. We do not think that it is appropriate to set out the possible terms of such an order until we have received written submissions from the parties on the terms of the order, including both the period of suspension and any conditions which should be attached to the order.

    As was said in Salvesen v Riddell 2013 SC (UKSC) 236 (Lord Hope at para 57), if such an order is made, it may be appropriate to give permission to the Lord Advocate to return to the court for any further orders under section 102(2)(b) as may be required. The court which is best placed to make such further orders may be the Court of Session. In the meantime, since the defective provisions are not within the legislative competence of the Parliament, they cannot be brought into force.

    110. We would allow the appeal and invite the parties to produce written submissions on the terms of a section 102 order within 42 days of the date of this judgment.’


  139. Chick McGregor says:

    The late Barbara Kelly, a lady of some wit unlike the moron above, once commented on the irony of her father’s recrimination that she had ‘besmirched the good name of Kelly’.

  140. K1 says:

    This gets really ‘interesting’ wrt to the NPS stage 1 evidence sessions. I’ve just watched John Swinney giving evidence at a stage 1 meeting on Nov 8th last year. Liz Smith asks the usual snide question of the cabinet minister about what ‘legal advice’ the Scots gov took in lead up to bringing forward NPS, she inserts the usual, ‘now we know you were wrong as the SC upheld the appellants claims’ schtick. And what ‘legal advice’ are the Scots gov now following.

    So…he begins to answer but begins by saying he wants to place his answer into a ‘wider context’. He begins to explain something that I and maybe others haven’t been made aware of wrt to the Supreme Court’s bringing into force the ‘new’ term: ‘in accordance with the Law’.

    He explains that in 2014 when NPS went through what he terms the ‘inner house’ and outer house’, the highest courts in Scotland, all legal challenges passed.

    But the practice apparently changed in the Supreme Court between 2014 and 2016:

    ‘…The SC had been pursuing a consistent line of legal interpretation and legal analysis in a number of judgements, which had not preceded 2014, but had followed 2014. wherein a whole host of different questions they were requiring public authorities to set out interpretations of legislative provisions, in their words: ‘In accordance with the Law’.

    And that emergence of that strain of thinking, in the Supreme Court’s consideration post dated the 2014 consideration of the Bill. And obviously that clearly influenced the judgement of the SC in July of 2016.

    Now I accept that the interpretation of the Law moves on and the SC has jurisdiction over these questions, so that’s why at the outset of my comments to the committee this morning I unreservedly accepted the SC judgement. So in defence of the advice the government took in 2014, that advice was based on the Legal debate at that time and obviously the decisions of the outer house and the inner house were taken within that context as well.

    The world has moved on subsequent to 2014 with the decision of the SC, which is why I’m now taking the steps that I’m taking with this legislation.


    SC trumps Scots Law, but we knew that, but didn’t know about the introduction of this ‘new’ ‘In accordance with Law’ direction of travel.

    Liz Smith is…hmm

  141. Petra says:

    @ ronnie anderson says at 11:45 pm … ”Three fucking times I’ve tried to post & not been shown a fucking idiot can post 11 times with his shite. Rev am getting totally pished aff.”

    You are not on your own Ronnie. Why is this not being dealt with Stu? This is supposed to be a pro-Independence site. Or is it?

    We want people who are sitting on the fence or even prior No voters (maybe even seemingly future no voters) to come on here and have their say.

    But that’s not what’s happening. An OBVIOUS anti-Independence individual has now absolutely taken over this site. Like Ronnie and no doubt many others I’m getting totally dished off too.

    What on earth is going on Stu? We need you but you also need people who are loyal to you and more so totally loyal to the Independence movement. Mr Alexander has PROVEN not to be, so why are you allowing this to go on?

  142. K1 says:

    Just to add that session was the last committee session taking place between Sept and Nov ’17. Very much worth a watch. Here is the entire page listing all the information sources from consultations with stakeholders to committee session related to the amendments required re SC ruling, to ensure the NPS gets off the ground.

  143. Ghillie says:

    Petra @ 9.24 pm

    Yes, a must read!

    Gordon MacIntyre Kemp’s article is an excellent analysis of what Westminster would need to do to be able to enact their plans post Brexit.

    The only way forward for Westminster to bring about selling off the NHS to the USA privateers etc would be to circumnavigate the devolved Scottish Parliament by ‘returning powers to Scotland’:

    To the newly beefed up ‘Scottish Office’.

    NOT to our elected representatives.

    The timing of our Independence Referendum is crucial.

    And I trust our SNP Government to time that perfectly =)

  144. Shinty says:

    Guys – Wings has lost many of our great contributors over the past year or so.

    Think about that for a moment.

    No disrespect to those who continue to inform, educate and have a laugh.

    You all have a scroll button – start using it, because there’s going to be a hell of a lot more folk going to come on here just to give us grief very shortly.

    Indyref2 is coming – start using this time positively.

  145. Brian Powell says:

    As on Scot Goes Pop, James Kelly, I now simply scroll past the obvious plants and go to the trusted providers, especially the excellent Nana with her links.

    But also will look at new readers introducing themselves. I think on top of Wing’s advice, the headline is never true for newspapers, the fakes and interlopers are, for a time, good exposure to readers of the ‘concerned supporters’ who are not.

    Then you recognise them at a glance and pass by.

    My guess is that overwhelming majority of readers go just to the articles, for info and understanding. Not many have time to read through all 100-500 comments, as can happen.

  146. Robert Louis says:

    Petra at 0220am

    Well said Petra. Many feel the same way. However, and I say this yet again, a BIG part of the problem, are the folks on here, who should know better, who actively choose to feed and indulge the nonsense, because it makes them feel clever (or something).

    If nobody replies (and this is true on ANY forum) these clowns end up just looking stupid, regurgitating the same nonsense over and over again – and eventually they cease to have impact.

    So, their is a problem, but still too many indulging and feeding the problem. In my book, they are just as much part of the problem.

  147. Smallaxe says:

    Good morning, Nana,
    Thank you for your links.Kettle’s on!

  148. heedtracker says:

    Not many have time to read through all 100-500 comments, as can happen

    I read them all, if only because atl stuff is in the UKOK zone is too confusing, like stinky olde The Graun this morn and
    Brexit attacks on civil service ‘are worthy of 1930s Germany’

    Leading Brexiters who accuse civil servants of sabotaging Britain’s exit from the EU are adopting dangerous tactics similar to those of rightwing German nationalists between the two world wars, a former head of the civil service has warned.”

    And yet exact same UK civil service awarded themselves hugely for monstering Scottish democracy 2014, in 2015,

    “We all had something in common, we’re trying to save the Union here, and it came so close. We just kept it by the skin of our teeth. I actually cried when the result came in. After 10 years in the civil service, my proudest moment is tonight and receiving this award.”

    He added: “As civil servants you don’t get involved in politics. For the first time in my life, suddenly we’re part of a political campaign. We were doing everything from the analysis, to the advertising, to the communications. I just felt a massive sense of being part of the operation. This being recognised [at the Civil Service Awards], makes me feel just incredibly proud.”

    Cochrane said: “we’ve learned that it is possible for civil servants to work on things that are inherently political and quite difficult, and you’re very close to the line of what is appropriate, but it’s possible to find your way through and to make a difference.”

    And Doyle added: “This award is not just for the Treasury, it’s for all the hard work that was done by all government departments on the Scotland agenda.”

    Planet toryboy is an odd er, world. Cant wait to see the Brexit civil service awards and how they all cried with joy at stopping Brexit, impartially and unbiasedly.

  149. Robert Louis says:


    Remember during the first indy referendum when the lying British Nationalists talked long and hard about how indy Scotland would lose the UK ‘TRIPLE AAA’ credit rating. Funny isn’t it, because they don’t seem to mention it much now. I wonder why?

    Oh, that’s right, I forgot, the UK doesn’t have a triple AAA credit rating from any of the major rating agencies anymore. Downgraded many times since 2014. Mainly due to mismanagement of the economy and the disastrous effects of BREXIT stupidity (we’re apparently leaving the EU single market, so we can negotiate access to the EU single market, FFS!).

    Yet another ‘better together’ British Nationalist lie, nailed.

  150. heedtracker says:

    Thank you for the Sunday morning links Nana!

    It is Sunday, right, each day in teamGB media is, BBC says SNP out, vote Tory groundhog day.


    BBC r4 tory attack propaganda’s gone massive with that memo from Fat Nixon but not once has any beeb r4 gimp even mentioned that it was written by the Republican party itself.

    Is there a greater fraud out there than Colin A?

    Just start at the thousands and thousands of BBC professional liars:D

  151. Ken500 says:

    More lies about trade. Scottish international exports £30Billion. Going out of the UK.

    Trade £40Billion. Excluding Oil & Gas.

    £10Billion going to the rest of the UK? 1/4. Less than to the EU.

    EU Trade Grants and investment. £20Billion+. Trade £11Billion. Grants and investment £9Billion which could be more. Grants in renewables and investment could increase. CCS investment etc.

  152. heedtracker says:

    Remember during the first indy referendum when the lying British Nationalists talked long and hard about how indy Scotland would lose the UK ‘TRIPLE AAA’ credit rating. Funny isn’t it, because they don’t seem to mention it much now. I wonder why?”

    Hey watch it!

    That one was a classic Project Fear 1 production 2014, from everyone at the impartial and unbiased Treasury.

    Its just one of the many reasons that they won their prestigious UKOK Civil Servant of the Year 2015 awards or as they’re known in the impartial and unbiased Civil Service, a Rees-Mogg.

    Think of a UK Civil Service impartial and unbiased Rees-Mogg as an Oscar, for professional liars, great British professional Liars.

    As one impartial and unbiased Rees-Mogg winner explained,

    Pisani said:

    “We all had something in common, we’re trying to save the Union here, and it came so close. We just kept it by the skin of our teeth. I actually cried when the result came in. After 10 years in the civil service, my proudest moment is tonight and receiving this award.”

    “As civil servants you don’t get involved in politics. For the first time in my life, suddenly we’re part of a political campaign. We were doing everything from the analysis, to the advertising, to the communications. I just felt a massive sense of being part of the operation. This being recognised [at the Civil Service Awards], makes me feel just incredibly proud.”

    Its great to think that all the vital impartial and unbiased UKOK civil servant experience they gained monstering Scottish democracy, is all being put to good impartial and unbiased use, enraging the Leave hard Brexiteers of teamGB.

    Its funny when its happening to someone else:D

  153. Hamish100 says:

    BBC scotch land Tory in residence Katy grant paper review trashing NHS again. Cancer results wrong apparently (testing laboratory in Essex, England). We don’t have enough diagnostic specialists and then age complains about middle classes complaining about Snp tax increases. Does she not see the selfishness of her approach? No . Did she mention many tax payers will not pay extra tax or even earn less? No.

    Now let’s do the papers, Torygraph moS express.

    I love our BBC impartiality- do they really believe it?

  154. Hamish100 says:

    Notice Alexander puts in 12 hour shifts. Is he on a short term contract linking with Rock? I am sure Rev is keeping a close eye on that lot.

    As for criticism of the snp -that’s allowed and I have in the past but CA consistently tries to undermine all their policies. i suggested nicely to him to be more positive over independence but he comes back attacking the child protection arrangements. Only right wing groups and civil rights think this is a bad scheme. The pilot schemes have been tested and tried.
    CA attacks our independence efforts and he knows it.

  155. Bob Mack says:

    Please remember that there are simple truths that apply to us all at this time.

    We want independence as a prime objective and we have looked endlessly at the ability of Scotland to succeed.

    The SNP are the ONLY Party that wants the same.

    The opposition must break SNP support.

    Those are basic facts regardless of ANY argument put forward against it.

    Choices of party and policy can be made after independence

    Those are the most important facts.Remember them.

  156. Famous15 says:

    Scotland has the highest fuel pump price in the UK.

    Scotland produces the majority of UK fuel.

    Crone stuck in my throat.Is there a cure?

  157. louis.b.argyll says:

    Aye, the troll truly is one.

    It’s all misquote here- I’m your Wings friend there..

    Nearly choked on my own eyes, which had popped our of my head reading such faux sentimentality.

  158. @heedtracker

    The only reason the UK State still has AA (but with a negative outlook) is UK State has actual physical collateral,

    our fricken oil,

    it`s the same as `high street` credit,if you own property you get a better rating and pay less interest,

    without oil/collateral the UK State would be downgraded to BB or less and have to pay much higher interest on its/our £1,790,000,000,000 debt.

  159. Ottomanboi says:

    2018…the year the country that invented ‘insurance’ and belt and braces ‘security’ finally lets itself go and votes to cast off the chains of unionist subservience?
    How much more British dung are we prepared to shovel in this filthy, decaying set up?

  160. TheWasp says:

    Famous 15 @10.19

    On holiday at the end of last year on a sunny rock in the Atlantic, and the petrol was 99 cents a litre

  161. McBoxheid says:

    Welsh Sion says:
    3 February, 2018 at 5:02 pm


    Sorry, friends ?

    You won fair and square. The forward pass leading to your last try made bugger all difference. The Scottish back division played with absolutely no cohesion whatsoever. They were far too flat and consequentially could only play laterally. Price’s indecision at the start gave Wales a penalty instead of producing a Scottish try. The Scottish back row only really started making a difference in the second half.

    The Scottish pack played well, apart from the line out, which was dreadful. It was good to see the officials pinging the not straight ball at the set piece, though. About time that was penalised.

    Of course, with a home crowd and the pride of the Welsh playing for it, the Welsh players played well to soak up Scottish pressure early on. After the 14 point lead did they really start to show who was in command. In the end, too many Scottish handling errors, there were a few from Wales too, gave Wales an easy victory.

  162. heedtracker says:

    Scot Finlayson says:
    4 February, 2018 at 10:35 am

    The only reason the UK State still has AA (but with a negative outlook) is UK State has actual physical collateral,

    our fricken oil,

    To big to fail too.

    That’s the UK Treasury, City and Wall Street’s greatest shyst on the world economy basically, socialism for the rich. Its only a problem for gilts prices, and as we know, UK gov borrows like a maniac.

    It looks like City super rich spivery is prepared to take the Brexit hit, to escape EU uncontrollable tax, of their giant money stream. A credit rate drop is not that troubling for a giant City hedge fund manager, like say Teresa Mayhem’s husband, endless profit, from hedge funds are excellent at ignoring things like credit ratings and taxation, natch. It how the UK finance sector’s been rigged.

    Crash Gordo’s greatest tory triumph was handing almost all UK energy profit, domestic, transport etc to the giant City pension funds, its like the UKOK engine for the City no matter what happens.

    So if you’re grinching about the price of your petrol and heating your house, thank socialist workers like Crash Gordo, something’s got to keep the colossal UK private pension funds pumping along nicely.

  163. Dorothy Devine says:

    Welsh Sion , thanks for the sympathy but we need something more than that!

    Backing my Welsh dragons to WIN – so get to it and beat the whole shebang!

  164. Sarah says:

    Shinty at 5.04

    I’d like to think you’re talking about me but doubt it! I expect the “lost greats” are still lurking and will come back btl when needed.

  165. Undeadshuan says:

    Just watched peston on Sunday.

    Rees mogg is favourite amongst tories to replace May.

    Bloody well dream ticket for achieving over 70% yes if he is leader before next indy ref.

    Who knows maybe the uk will collapse like the USSR before next march.

  166. Kangaroo says:

    I have been reading everything on this site since well before indyref1 and am an ardent indy supporter. I don’t live in Scotland and can only offer my observations and support.

    I understand why there is so much griping about trolls on here. But they’re here to stay until at least indyref2, that’s just the way it is. The englishNats and their collaborators will not stop until their Scotch region is cowed for good. They need Scotland’s resources to prevent their own bankruptcy. You don’t have to like them being here, but get used to it, they’re not going anywhere, they can’t afford to.
    We need to fight the good fight and back each other up. So quit griping and be positive we are going to win. Slowly but surely the people are opening their eyes. Keep going, don’t lose heart you we are winning.

  167. Jack Murphy says:

    Off Topic. TODAY’S PAPERS.

    The Sunday Times England has a Front Page Splash:

    “Brexiteers plot to install ‘dream team’ at No.10,Johnson,Gove and Rees-Mogg as Chancellor.” [!!] 🙁

    Not a word on the Front Page of Sunday Times Scotland about Brexit.
    Don’t frighten Scotland seems to be the policy.
    We may get restless.

  168. Bill McLean says:

    Brian Powell at 0834 – I was banned from “Scot goes Pop” for complaining about GWC2 and his foul language. Funny old world init?

  169. louis.b.argyll says:

    Indeed Heedy.

    I still want to know, how come our taxes paid for the UK Treasury’s employees to do the dirty on Scotland.?

    It’s blatant establishment elitism. Flim-flam, followed by a period of backslapping honours and promotions.


    “As civil servants you don’t get involved in politics. For the first time in my life, suddenly we’re part of a political campaign. We were doing everything from the analysis, to the advertising, to the communications.”


  170. Gary45% says:

    “Welcome Mr Kelly Scottish Labours finance spokesman, your starter for 10”
    What’s 10+11?
    Hurry up Mr Kelly, you are not allowed to take your shoes off to use your toes.
    Mastermind! aye right.

  171. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Absolutely startling coverage of the dirty war in NI in today’s Sunday Herald.

    A useful wake up call as to what we are up against and the enemy we face. (Of course they wouldn’t think of fiddling the ballot would they? Just less extreme stuff like infiltration of the YES movement and taking out nuisances)

  172. Iain mhor says:

    Is it safe tae come oot yet?
    Aye, I sterted tae scroll by the creish – noo ah’m scrollin by the creish enablers by name. Ye’re no doin yersels ony favours people, ah’m no wasting time lookin tae see if ye’re responding or making yer ain guid posts. It’s a sin for ye so it is, it’s whit they wanted, hell mend ye richt enough. It’s nae loss tae me – it is tae you but.
    It’s nae bother, there’s still ither guid posters in here, ah read them instead.
    Responding tae the dung – Jist gauny no dae that.

  173. ronnie anderson says:

    O/T .

    I attended a meeting in Glasgow yesterday with Yes groups re 2018 Marches & Rally’s ( F/Book page , all interested Yes groups are asked to Register it is hoped we can coordinate all events so that there are no clashes of events to maximise the numbers at every event . There is a clash of event , the CND ( faslane ) were asking for the 5th May rally to support their event ( Corbyn speaking & International speakers attending ) given Corbyn’s hypocrisy I certainly wouldn’t be going to shout at fences ( you’ll be glad to hear Rev ah only dey Bbc windies ) .

    People on the day will decide which event they decide to support but for myself & others Independence is 1 st & Foremost I can’t see Corbyn supporting Scottish Independence as a means to Nuclear Disarmament in britain never mind Unilateral disarmament .

    Hopefully CND wake up and smell the shite Corbyn speaks .

    I’ll keep you’s posted as to future events as we all know this will be a tumultuous year for the Independence Movement , please share all events when posted f/b /twitter ect we need the widest audence as possible .

  174. Dr Jim says:

    How does someone who doesn’t commit to Independence become a MSP
    This week in Holyrood I heard MSP Ben McPherson say in the chamber “As someone who believes in the British State” during the budget debate

    If anyone can help with this I’d be obliged, did I mishear Ben McPherson MSP can anyone in his constituency who knows more contribute more information as to whether this is a mistake or correct

    I ask this because of some of the strange language I’ve been hearing from MP Ian Blackford and the sudden resignation of Angus Robertson and I’m beginning to get an uncomfortable feeling

  175. heedtracker says:

    I understand why there is so much griping about trolls on here. But

    Colin A’s probably the best yoon btl Wos yet, to be fair. He’s quite adept at keeping everything btl SNP bad, so that btl comments tend to try and say no, non, nein, to it all, and not focused on say the BBC Scotland red and blue yoon tory creepshow, desperately trying to SNP out everyone, everywhere.

    He’s just a wee side fart, from the giant BBC Scotland out machine belching out all over everyone really from Pacific Quay but its a pretty nifty attempt, isn’t that right Colin A, who is really weally a YES vote, but we must get the SNP out, first.

  176. ronnie anderson says:

    kangeroo I’ll gripe if ah want tae , gripe watters cheaper than booze noo that minimum pricing’s came in ( don’t aw rush at wance lease some fur the bairns ) lol

  177. Clapper57 says:

    Watching Sunday politics and had to laugh at Labour’s Damn …sorry Dame Ann McGuire and Brewer questioning why SNP seemingly reluctant re second EU Ref via Brewer’s interrogation of Ian Blackford today…Duh Scotland voted remain…Scottish government’s position is to stay in single market and customs union….what would a second EU Ref achieve ?

    Well perhaps another opportunity for England to vote leave and Scots to be told once again that it was a UK vote and they should , once again, respect democracy……obviously both Brewer and McGuire unable to understand or respect any of this….which of course is understandable if one is looking at this from a Unionist perspective I guess.

  178. yesindyref2 says:

    @ronnie anderson
    I think it’s 4% alcohol but you have to be careful, some gripe waters don’t have any alcohol 🙁

  179. Valerie says:

    @ Kangaroo

    Yes, you are quite right about the Britnat trolls, here and n Twitter. Twitter is great though, as I block most of them so my timeline is free of their shite.

    They thrive on any response here, so many of us get fed up of those disruptive conversations, and stay away for periods. It kills natural flow of input, and its a tactic that works.

    I would much prefer, as many have exhorted our regulars, that the trolls were left alone, to shrivel up.

  180. colin alexander says:

    “The site advocates Scottish independence, but is not affiliated or connected in any way to the SNP.”
    “welcome intelligent contributions from all sides of the political debate.”
    “Wings Over Scotland has an open comments policy”

    The SNP have some good policies but, their indyref policy is a mess. If announced then you have to go for it 100%. They announced it, but it hasn’t happened, but that allowed the Unionists to use it to rally NO voters in tactical voting.

    The SNP UK General Election 2017 campaign was a shambles which, has considerably weakened the SNP:
    Two of their most competent and effective MPs gone: Alex Salmond and Angus Robertson. Many more, clung on by a handful of votes, eg Pete Wishart.

    The SNP are now primarily a pro-devolution party who seek to undermine other pro-independence supporting rivals such as the Greens. This is evidenced by their refusal of YES candidates, their vote SNP/ SNP policy, that limited the List MSPs for the pro-indy Greens and only gained two or three SNP List candidates.

    They have a policy of concentrating all power within the top echelons of the SNP which is anti-democratic.

    Even their organisational structure consists of the two most senior figures being a husband and wife team.

    Nicola Sturgeon is a fantastic orator: Articulate, cool, confident, composed. A great ambassador for Scotland and the SNP. She should be able to concentrate on being FM of the devolution Scottish Govt.

    Someone else should be leader of the party. Someone more imaginative and bolder.
    A better political tactician should separately campaign for independence, dividing devolution SNP from pro-indy SNP.

    The merits of Scotland’s independence should not be judged on the performance of the SNP devolution govt. But that’s what happens, encouraged by the SNP who seek to exploit independence supporters to support devolution SNP.

    The organisation and roles within the SNP are a mess now. The party grew, the power grew. The ability to effectively organise and allocate that power effectively has diminished. Election campaigns and results prove this. Wasted talent and lost opportunities are further proof.

    The SNP intentionally dominate independence politics. When their poor organisation, campaigning incompetence and party self-interest damage the independence cause, then they deserve criticism.

    If the SNP cheerleaders that try to control WoS btl comments through bullying, abuse and intimidation don’t like it, tough.

    Get your own “We worship the SNP” blog where only praise for the SNP is allowed, so you don’t discredit WoS and the independence cause with your aggressive, obscene tribal behaviour towards anyone who dares criticise the SNP in any way.

    In the meantime, nobody knows whether there will be an indyref or not, while we wait to see how the unelected, undemocratic Lords decide how Scotland’s parliament will be robbed of devolved powers, and Scotland is ripped out of the EU against the will of the people.

  181. wull2 says:

    If you think they did not deliver what they told us in 2014, you know what to do.
    Vote YES next time.

  182. heedtracker says:

    The SNP intentionally dominate independence politics. When their poor organisation, campaigning incompetence and party self-interest damage the independence cause, then they deserve criticism.

    If the SNP cheerleaders that try to control WoS btl comments through bullying, abuse and intimidation don’t like it, tough

    Good for you Colin A. Nothing better than an enrage unionist btl.

    For the record, there is little if any SNP critical stuff btl WoS, if only because there’s a whole army of raging tory media gimps, ranting and lying their heads off at us all, UKOK day in, UKOK day out.

    Is that fair Colin A?

    In other words, why would any actual YES voter in Scotland bother to waste their time actually helping out or adding to, massed ranks of BBC Scotland led SNP out attack propagandists, like you Colin A?

    Hope this helps you to understand the how and why of btl WoS.

    Have to hand it to yoons like you Colin A, if you don’t get it all, you just come back in UKOK harder:D

  183. yesindyref2 says:

    As a regular offender of engaging with trolls, I think the answer is simple. Once a troll is identified, DO NOT engage with them, do not mention their name. But by all means, if they make a point that needs an answer, address the point and only the point, without mentioning them. That starves them of personal gratification, and treats them with the contempt they deserve.

    But trolls will keep coming as kangaroo says, and “better the devil you know”, as it can take time to identify a new troll who seems reasonable, but then starts getting really weird.

    If I don’t follow my own advice, please tell me to eff off.

  184. yesindyref2 says:

    That goes for you too. Please ignore “Colin A” completely.

  185. Fred says:

    @ Dr Jim, mebbes MacPherson meant the “State of Britain?”

    Ruth doesn’t want the Tory cabinet coming to her Scottish Tory Conference in case the zoomers frighten the horses!

  186. Dorothy Devine says:

    Heedtracker , and lengthy with it – who has time to drop essay after essay ?

    However marking an essay is quite good fun – nil point!

  187. Famous15 says:

    Speaking to a pal who is very pro independence and he feels ten times more confident about indyref2. He thinks the British Nationalists have over cooked their criticism of the SNP and it is now working in their favour.

    Unlike me he thinks we should let the fake independistas tell their lies and let their obvious kid ons be a risible entertainment.

    Toxic Tories are still toxic but are now frantic.They want to cling to the coat tails of such as Rees Moggs as he speaks proper!

  188. colin alexander says:

    PMQ’s: Angus Robertson discussing the EU-Ref, Brexit and Indyref:

  189. louis.b.argyll says:

    I like griping.

    Seriously though Kangaroo, there needs to be some kind of safety-net, especially for comments that repeat the very misconceptions outlined in Rev’s, well referenced articles.

    The same lies, indirectly regurgitated.

  190. Robert Graham says:

    Ha Ha brilliant Colin really well done Lob a wee Grenade in and sit back and watch the fallout .

    I do wish you would get off the fence on your opinion of the SNP , where exactly do you stand ? so far it isn’t clear if you really despise them . or really really really despise them , is it their policies , or their implementation of their policies you find wanting ,

    By all means offer a critical assessment of what they are trying to achieve, and the way they are implementing the ideas and policies to the public that so far in large numbers have voted for them ,

    Given that this one Party are the only means of (a) Giving the only route to our independence and (b) The only party who will attempt to protect the Scottish parliament , what part of (a) or (b) would you disagree with ? .

    Buried amongst your daily ,well in your case hourly rants are some searching questions , it’s a pity you have chosen to present them in a manner that’s designed to make posters notice your existence , ok everyone knows your here Colin , but you seem to be repeating the same mantra over and over again , as many have said it’s becoming tedious , and a little annoying .

    I used to favour a call for certain contributors to be excluded from continuously taking up space and causing disruption , well as you say it’s an open forum , please try and not abuse it thanks .

  191. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi yesindyref2 at 1:28 pm.

    You typed,
    “But by all means, if they make a point that needs an answer, address the point and only the point, without mentioning them. That starves them of personal gratification, and treats them with the contempt they deserve.”

    Totally agree. I started doing that a few weeks ago.

  192. heedtracker says:

    yesindyref2 says:
    4 February, 2018 at 1:33 pm
    That goes for you too. Please ignore “Colin A” completely.

    He’s not a troll, he’s a unionist doing his thing btl WoS. Does it matter? maybe. But let him do his thing.

    Think about it, yoon culture in their Scotland region has it all SNPout covered, start at Pacific Quay bottom of the SNP out barrel scraping and work up to, lets say, neo fascist Voice of The North Press and Journal, all of intensely anti SNP, anti Scottish democracy, anti Holyrood, you name it Scots, all the newsrooms across teamGB hate it… and ofcourse their breathtakingly pro tory bias. Its how teamGB works.

    So Colin A, who or whatever he is, scopes all of the above and decides to monster the SNP right at the heart of what the SNP actually is, the one and only Scottish independence party.

    If Colin A is an actual 77th dingdong, you can see they’re least thinking a bit, “get the SNPout, because they’re terrible at Scottish independence,” wise.

    Who knows, maybe a YES vote will swallow Colin A’s SNP out for an indy Scotland nonsense:D

  193. Ron Maclean says:

    @Dr Jim 1239 pm

    From Budget Bill Stage 1 Debate 31 Jan.

    Ben Macpherson Scottish National Party
    Last week, I visited two primary schools in my constituency. As I was there, meeting the teachers and chatting to some of the children, I thought about how young people of primary school age across Scotland have grown up in a context of on-going Westminster austerity. That is a sobering fact, and something on which we should all reflect—particularly those who believe in the UK state.

  194. K1 says:

    Latest Yougov has TM 6 points ahead of JC. As David Halliday says in his tweet:

    ‘My God. How bad do they have to be? I’m going to be dead before there’s not a British Tory government. You too probably.’

    Wakey wakey Scotland.

  195. Dan Huil says:

    @Macart 1:53pm

    Agreed. Things are heating up and the Scottish government must be ready to go for the britnat jucular.

  196. K1 says:

    Just to ‘hammer’ that point home.

    How often have we heard ourselves say: when we become independent we’ll most likely keep the SNP in, in the firs few years as we birth our independence.

    Well for the British Nationalists this logic is exactly similar. They will keep the Tories in to birth what they think is their independence from the EU.

    We must get out. Else we will be trapped by a Tory government we never voted for, for the next decade or more and everything that represents multiplied by infinite pain for generations to come.

  197. yesindyref2 says:

    The problem is some people engage with it as though it’s a real person, even asking it questions. They might as well talk to the kitchen sink. “Hello sink, what do you think about all the dirty dishes?”, “(Grunt) I wish people would wash them occasionally, instead of leaving all this dirty dirty BAD water. But I support water though they’re giving away the washers and the taps and the plug and they follow the orders of the Water Board, and when I was out on the streets washing dishes and blah blah blah”.

    Yeah, they could talk to the ktichen sink, it would make more sense.

  198. yesindyref2 says:

    Because it’s destroying the forum, and driving people away. We might enjoy playing with it, but others don’t enjoy us playing with it. If we stop playing with it, it’ll have to play with itself, and with any luck it’ll go cross-eyed and not be able to see its keyboard.

  199. Referendum1707 says:

    Heedtracker (and a couple of others)

    Any chance you could just back off a bit please? Pretty please.

    Would free up time for you to go feed trolls elsewhere.

  200. Dan Huil says:

    @K1 2:44pm

    Re Yougov lead for May. [There’s a massive 36% of don’t knows].

    As the brexit disaster continues, however, good old [bad old] English nationalism seems to be digging its heels in. Xenophobia remains a vote-winner in England.

    I believe Engand’s support for May will add to Scots’ concerns about brexit and Scotland being dragged down to britnat levels of incompetence. Scotland and England continue to drift apart politically – polls like this will help speed up the demise of the so-called united kingdom.

    I also still believe it will be hard brexit and Scotland will have indyref2 well before the next Holyrood elections.

  201. Fred says:

    Wee Ginger Dug, excellent!

  202. colin alexander says:


    The FM is a trained solicitor. We read about independence by the rule of law to support indyref.

    So, which rule of law? As long as we remain within the UK, we are subject of UK law. That is the law by which we must abide.

    So, UK law says, UK Parliament is absolutely sovereign: UK Parliament comprises: Crown ( UK Govt), Commons and Lords.

    If UK Govt refuses Indyref S30 according to the law in the UK: Scotland Act 2016; further, if WM decides to not legislate for an independence referendum or independence, by rule of UK law (Parliament is sovereign), what then?

    The FM was asked this question directly on Scottish Politics: What will you do if Theresa May refuses a Section 30 to authorise an independence referendum; will you just hold one anyway?

    The FM wouldn’t answer.

    TM has since said “not now”. Mr Mundell said: “”I don’t see any circumstances in which there is going to be an independence referendum before the 2021 Scottish Parliament elections.”

    Are the UK Govt going to cave in and agree?

    Or will the FM do a “Catalonia” and defy the UK Govt in an ultra vires gesture indyref?

    She said ingnoring a 62% Remain vote was democratically indefensible. But the SNP then capitulated on keeping Scotland in the EU, retreating to a new defensive line of Single Market / Customs Union.

    She has already accepted it’s the UK rules that are the only rules in that regard.

    Now, many independists expect it’s a certainty that there will be an indyref before 2021. If there were not, it could seriously undermine the SNP and independence.

    The SNP have boxed themselves into a corner with their indyref policy. They are boxed into a 2 year timeframe win or bust scenario, not just for the SNP but for the whole independence movement.

    It would have made more sense to stick with a policy of independence in EVERY election manifesto after 2014. If the SNP don’t win, it’s the SNP that are rejected, not independence. And they keep standing till they win.

    That’s what I’m told: SNP are the only way to win indy, so let the SNP stand on indy, not indyref.

    But the SNP would need to gamble losing devolution power to have the chance of winning freedom for Scotland.

    They won’t do it. Self-interest overrides national interest.

    They now have big hooses, big cars, gold-plated pensions for playing at pretend government, while the big decisions are made in the unelected House of Lords and Commons by English Tory and DUP MPs.

  203. Legerwood says:

    yesindyref2 @ 2.56pm

    In general I would agree with you about .CA and others who knowingly engage such that it becomes a boringly repetitive slanting match with zero content. But not last night’s discussion of the Named Person legislation and the UK Supreme Court’s judgement on the Appeal.

    A lot of very useful information and rebuttal by the likes of K1 and others was the sort of information we should see more of on the site. So wee kudos to .CA for introducing it even although that was not his intention.

    His introduction of the subject into this thread seemed to come out of the blue, and certainly unconnected to any of the posts that had gone before, but in fact it was not as random an introduction of the topic as all that.
    Those who pay attention to such things would know it had appeared in Kevin McKenna’s column in yesterday’s Herald and was prominent in the below the line comments. The assertions being made about NP and the judgement were not too dissimilar to Ca’s on here. Therefore the discussion and information from K1 and others was timely and pertinent.

    Criticism of the NP is not going to go away therefore forewarned with knowledge it can be rebutted and shown to be what it is, assertion without substance.
    Sometimes trolls have their uses. What is required is a bit of judgement about the response, if one is necessary, to stop their intervention collapsing the site.

  204. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Does anyone remember a photo of a WM Scottish Lodge meeting taken inside the HoC?

    I’m sure as can be that it appeared here, perhaps four or five years ago.

    Did I just imagine it?!


  205. Macart says:

    @Dan Huil

    Been off for a couple of days attending some family matters, but kept up with some reading.

    Paul’s right on the nail.

    If any British Nationalist gives you a whatabout question? Ignore entirely and move on. This isn’t a one sided debate. They’ve got questions to answer too.

    They made pledges and assurances. They broke them each and every one. They want someone to listen to their nonsense, then they need to give the electorate and more especially the indy movement a reason.

    Trust and respect. A two way street. You need to give some to get some and given the past three years? I’m not in a receptive mood personally.

  206. Bob Mack says:

    Standing on indy by uDI ,and standing on indy ref2 are two very different things. One is internationally unacceptable and one is internationally acceptable.

    One is a recipe for civil war, the other might be begrudged but is the concensus of the people.

    You either have a Democracy or a dictatorship. Not hard really.

  207. heedtracker says:

    Any chance you could just back off a bit please? Pretty please.

    Would free up time for you to go feed trolls elsewhere.

    Any chance you can just back off a bit telling people to shut up please, pretty please:D

    Its btl WoS, not the UN.

    If you do not like reading some btl WoS readers stuff, don’t read it. Its not compulsory.

  208. Bob Mack says:

    Great picture on Eddie Readers twitter of Scotlab, Tories and Lib Dem at Scotland in Union Burns Night. Not much emnity there. Laughably they are dressed in kilts and Plaid.

    You know, the stuff that was banned for years by England.

  209. ronnie anderson says:

    The road was long
    just out of Sight
    But now my friends
    It’s clear and Bright

    One more hill
    we will be there
    And Scotland’s freedom
    We all will share

    Bill Glen .

  210. jfngw says:

    @Bob Mack

    Plastic Jocks or Plastic Mac’s not sure which one I prefer. Celebrating someone who I suspect would have not given them the time of day, a parcel of brogues.

  211. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes, K1’s posts were good. Note that K1 didn’t ask the troll’s opinion, or try to persuade the troll as some do. Trolls don’t care about the issues, only in causing trouble.

  212. David says:

    A insult to an abacus.

  213. colin alexander says:

    Bob Mack

    What you call “UDI” and indyref, come from the same democratic electoral mandate.

    If 50% plus vote for either, the mandate is equally valid. Less than 50% voted for an SNP manifesto that contains the indyref policy. Is that illegal then?

    To make it cast iron, I would suggest 50% +1 of the popular vote must support pro-indy parties. So, it’s EXACTLY the same democratic standard as an indyref.

    “while the Security Council has condemned particular declarations of independence, in all of those instances it was making a determination as regards the concrete situation existing at the time that those declarations of independence were made; it states that “the illegality attached to the declarations of independence thus stemmed not from the unilateral character of these declarations as such, but from the fact that they were, or would have been, connected with the unlawful use of force or other egregious violations of norms of general international law, in particular those of a peremptory character (jus cogens)”….

    “For the reasons already given, the Court considers that general international law contains no applicable prohibition of declarations of independence.”

    So, the International Court of Justice does not say UDI, or secession is illegal in any way, but actions such as a military coup de t’at followed by a UDI would be illegal because of the means of facilitating the UDI being a peremptory illegal means of achieving UDI.

    In Scotland’s case independence by manifesto mandate via democratic vote via universal suffrage of the population, where all ethnic minorities, genders etc are allowed to vote, would be fully within international law.

    Thus, I quote the ICJ to support my case for Scotland declaring itself not bound by UK law and UK constitution if the people voted to be independent in a fair election. Indeed, that was SNP policy for c.70 years.

    Where’s the proof of your argument that unilaterally dissolving the Union would be illegal, if that’s what the people voted for in an election?

  214. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Legerwood @ 15:30:

    His introduction of the subject into this thread seemed to come out of the blue, and certainly unconnected to any of the posts that had gone before, […]

    Exactly. Just as always. Setting his own agenda regardless, and always there’s some damnfool willing to take the bait.

    With all due respect to you, an entirely useless distraction. Just another all-too-predictable repetition from his essenpeebad toolkit.

    From a parasite who is too cowardly to set up his own blog that we could all cheerfully ignore or tackle as we each please. From someone who consistently refuses to say what he does actually believe in. Oh, other than “Scottish independence”. Aye, richt.

    I did a wee calculation on one of the threads chosen at random the other day, and you-know-who had a glorious 11% of all the postings. Purely off his own bat. And using the word count instead might well have upped that proportion, due to his screeds of verbiage. And that also excludes the many replies that his off-the-wall postings provoked.

    It’s sheer pollution. An anti-indy cancer. FGS, it’s not an attempt at friendly discourse, peeps, it’s an attack!

  215. colin alexander says:


    Re: NPS

    I quoted the legal judgement from the highest court in the country ( civil law), whereas K1 quoted the FM at FM’s questions, at first.

    “not according to law” “disproportionate intereference” in the Article 8 rights of young people, children and parents by the sharing of private information”.

    The Supreme Court of the UK v the FM in a political at Holyrood.

    Hmmm, I wonder which is the factual answer?

    But credit where it’s due, at least K1 attempted to debate it, instead of just abusive obscenities and troll rubbish.

  216. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    louis.b.argyll: “I like griping.”

    Is that…is that an Alien reference? I think I just fainted.

  217. colin alexander says:

    Bob Mack

    On your reasoning we shouldnae have had indyref then cos of the threats:

    or because of this:

    Is this what the independence movement has come to?

    We cannae be free, cos some of the Unionists said they’d gies us a doing.

    We live with the threat of terrorism every day of our lives:

    We must live by democracy and self-determination, not by threats or use of violence or the whole game’s a bogie.

  218. Sinky says:

    Talking of Masterminds, great article on Richard Leonard by Iain MacWhirter in Sunday Herald.

    Strange that none of our broadcasters have discussed Leonard’s shambolic leadership.

  219. yesindyref2 says:

    It doesn’t like being ignored though, which is its weakness. See above where it’s trying to drag me and Bob into replying to it. It has no chance.

  220. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’m not trying to show off, I just thought this sectarian enabling BritNat could do with some re-edumication. Scotland can not afford the luxury of having idiots like this confusing the political choices ahead. Brexit will harm an economy already weakened by austerity and will most probably cost the lives of many vulnerable individuals throughout the UK.

    Scotland is beset by a myriad of odious cretins supporting British nationalism, who all appear to have free access to the media. Somehow, I don’t think this is a coincidence.


    2. Culture, Identities, Human Needs and Conflict

    Each person is partly like all others, partly like some others, partly like no-one else. Stress is placed in this study on the deeper aspects of culture, values, beliefs, norms, which influence perceptions, assumptions, attitudes, and eventually behavior and traditional practices. Culture is understood for our purposes as the “collective programming of the mind” (Hofstede, 1991:5) or as an expression of all the experiences of a particular people or group over time which help shape their personality and manner of perceiving. People carry several layers of mental programming, Hofstede argues, which correspond to different culture levels, from the individual to the universal. Table 1 presents different cultural levels of analysis, with examples of the most common regional and social contexts.

  221. wull2 says:

    Keep putting the drops in the eyes, it help you to ignore certain posts and report anything you happen to see.

    Lets spoil their game. The YES side have many eyes.

  222. Juan says:

    Thanks to Nana for today’s links, especially this:

    When the colonialist media are monstering Scotland’s NHS, particularly this winters, and next years, A&E figures. They’ve cleared the ground in advance. We won’t be able to point out that Scotland’s is still outperforming England’s, as there won’t be any figures from England to compare. Our only comeback will be “but England’s are soooo bad they’ve stopped counting”. Unless anyone else has a better response?

  223. Dan Huil says:

    Apologies if Nana or someone else has already posted this:

  224. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @meself earlier –

    Dude sent me this via Twitter.

    Houses of Parliament Loyal Orange Lodge –

  225. Ottomanboi says:

    @CameronB Brodie
    As someone might have said ‘It’s all about culture, stupid’
    The media addled Anglosaxonized West has turned ‘culture’ into a consumable. It has become product to be bought or sold as the occasion might present. The decadent ‘art market’ being a prime exhibit.
    The disconnect from politics does not suit emerging/re-emerging nations e.g. Scotland/Alba where the raison d’être for existence is founded in historic ‘cultural separateness’ ie unique identity not in some ephemeral notion of economic viability.
    Big state cultures propagate the myths of ‘one world’ or ‘global village’ or ‘world music’ by appropriating the cultures of others for their benefit while denying to the sources of the ‘myths’ the autonomy to reject that appropriation. Reject and they are labelled ‘nationalist’. In the big state lexicon definition a vile word: yet another example of cultural appropriation.

  226. K1 says:

    The term is:

    ‘in accordance with the law’

    Given that you cannot even quote the actual term correctly, is it really worth any further discussion on this matter? I would put it to you that it is not.

    But let us finish this here.

    The ‘factual answer’ is that you distorted the facts surrounding the judgement of the SC regarding NPS and claimed the aspect that was not ‘in accordance with the law’ was related to the NPS itself and further you described the NPS as a ‘snooper’s charter’.

    Revealing that your whole aim was to slight the ‘arrogant’ Scottish Government with regard to the NPS itself? Not to address what you are now ‘claiming’ as somehow a ‘fair point’ that you were making wrt to the actual substance of the SC’s ruling.

    In essence NS has neatly and succinctly pinned the essence of the judgement itself:

    ‘it pointed to what it saw as problems and flaws with the information-sharing provisions. The bill is about rectifying those flaws.’

    There is no contradiction between what the FM has stated and the actual ruling itself on this matter. You keep thinking by not expressing the full quote in the actual judgement itself that you are ‘scoring a point’ here. You are not. You are digging and can’t stop doing so.

    ‘106. In summary, we conclude that the information-sharing provisions of Part 4 of the Act (a) do not relate to reserved matters, namely the subject matter of the DPA and the Directive, (b) are incompatible with the rights of children, young persons and parents under article 8 of the ECHR because they are not “in accordance with the law” as that article requires,

    It’s a ‘technical’ ruling. Not a substantive criticism of the NPS itself. Which is what your rant at 6.50pm was?

    Keep going. You are managing to make an absolute fool of yourself without my assistance.

  227. Mike d says:

    Ian B. A fine bunch of fat jowled expense stealing brethren. Aye in any other country but here,These fundamentalists would be f****g chased.

  228. galamcennalath says:

    Ian Brotherhood says:

    Houses of Parliament

    Wow, it’s for real …

  229. Mike d says:

    Jfngw 3.54pm. I think I prefer “UNCLE TAMS “.

  230. CameronB Brodie says:

    The British Labour party is a vehicle for the articulation of British nationalism, the contemporary form of which is an expansionist form of English nationalism.

    Ms. McGovern doesn’t appear to appreciate the significance of “agency”. As such, she will struggle to comprehend social change. Now there’s a surprise.

  231. CameronB Brodie says:

    Nationalism is probably one of the woolier of political concepts, a fact the BritNats exploit to the max.

  232. Mike d says:

    O/t i see the renowned Katie Hopkins has collapsed in South Africa after taking ketamine.

  233. colin alexander says:

    There’s been a deficit in the Gers figures again that Professor Adam Tomkins won’t want to mention:

    1-2 to Hibs at Ibrox.

  234. Bob Mack says:


    Not just Orange Order. The Guardian is running a story about two branches of Freemasons in the House of Commons.
    One is for the MP’s and the other would you guess is for the journalists who frequent the House.

    Explains much.

  235. stewartb says:

    K1 @ 6:50 pm and your other contributions regarding NP:

    There are matters raised here and assertions made that, regardless of the reputation, track-record or likely motives of those who raise or make them, will usually require a response. Why?

    (i) Because they are associated with a really important subject – perhaps none more important than the welfare and protection of children;

    (ii) Its an important subject that has received ‘problematic’ coverage in the corporate media – and has been ruthlessly politicised;

    (iii) The repeated confident assertions of a minority of posters BTL should not be allowed the opportunity to have a legacy influence on any new/occasional visitor to this site, without some rebuttal;

    (iv) Opportunities to hone arguments are useful – even if tedious in some particular circumstances!

    My own reason for making a single contribution earlier in the thread on the subject of NP was decidedly not to engage with the particular source of the slur against those supporting NP and those striving to find the best way to support all Scotland’s children – including many of our long-standing, much valued children’s charities.

    My intention was to encourage people who are concerned about the issue to take time and effort to revert to original sources – so easy now in the internet age – and to come to a well-informed view of their own.

    This is so important on crucial subjects of this kind – and crucially important to be alert to the difference between ‘confident, well-crafted assertion’, interpretation’ – reasonable or agenda-driven, and original, documented source information. (These are distinctions that our media seems no longer wish to make clearly – we should wear our ‘alert reader’ Wings badges with pride!)

    I have no expectation of ‘winning’ in a debate online with certain individuals. And I have no wish to amplify their profile. I do wish to encourage others to be alert and to offer links to sources and to context on key issues that matter to me.

    And finally, just to say K1, I appreciate your efforts on this thread on the NP issue.

  236. Shinty says:

    I would think any ‘organisation’ using – is just a guy with a keyboard and photoshop

    Could be wrong of course.

  237. Bob Mack says:

    Colin Alexander, are you perchance Tommy Sheridan ?

  238. colin alexander says:


    I don’t have any disagreement with the quote.

    But, It was more than a technicality. The NPS legislation could not go into operation as originally legislated, if it had, it would have led to Social Services etc breaching the DPA /Article 8 HRA due to the way they were being told they could share data. They could have faced legal action and been fined and been required to pay damages as a result.

    The Scot Govt accepted the SC ruling and as you referred to, the Scot Govt have made changes to the legislation so it is in “accordance with the law”.

    The above article gives a fairly balanced account of the the Named Person Scheme from supporters and critics, so hopefully our debate has helped people understand more about it.

    The proof of the pudding will be in the eating.

    Whilst “The judges did say that the aims of the Act were “unquestionably legitimate and benign”.

    Hopefully, those working within child care areas will be more aware of the need to operate within the law,such as the DPA and HRA and not breach people’s human rights.

    I’m sure we both want the aims of the Act to achieve its goals of improving child welfare, so it will be important that staff are properly trained and follow clear guidelines, both to improve child welfare and respect people’s human right to a private and family life.

  239. Shinty says:

    Bob Mack – TS is one of the good guys. Get yourself on youtube and watch him make mincemeat out of Andrew Neil and others. Reckon he hates the bbc more than most.

  240. K1 says:

    Thank you stewartb for your thoughtful and articulate comments regarding the NPS. I completely agree with your expressed sentiments regarding the importance of rebutting false, spurious and slanderous claims regarding the NPS.

    When these comments, whoever states them, are left without challenge, we open ourselves up to becoming the enablers of those who seek to misconstrue and lie outright about the purpose and more importantly the ‘intent’ and merits behind such legislation.

    As you rightly point out, it is of paramount importance that we remain alert to those who come btl on any of our pro democracy forums seeking to muddy the waters and present narratives that are by and large easily debunked by oftentimes, a quick search to accurate sources that are readily available to anyone who seeks to understand the truth behind the matter/s under consideration.

    I also agree with your comments regarding honing of one’s debating skills, for much of what lies ahead in the upcoming 2nd independence referendum will be primarily an exercise in rebuttal of false and misleading narratives. To that end, the raising of the NPS on this thread and particularly the outright misrepresentation and denigration of the subject by that poster served as a starting point to illustrate ‘how’ to approach the ‘substantive’ aspects whilst ignoring the ‘dross’ surrounding that poster’s ‘general’ ill informed contributions on this forum.

    Like you I have no intent wrt to amplifying his profile on here. Nor to ‘win’ the debate, for the sake of ‘winning’. I merely consider the NPS as you do, a crucial piece of legislation that addresses systemic failures within our existing care system and when in place will ultimately ‘fully’ protect our children and young people providing a genuine safety net in accordance with the aims of girfec.


    I’d also like to thank you for your comments earlier in the thread Legerwood and am glad you understood where I was coming from too wrt to challenging the ‘substantive’ falsehoods of that poster’s original cheap shots about the NPS. It’s indeed about knowing ‘when’ to respond and when not to. And providing links to sources that debunk the narrative being put forward, especially with, as we all agree, a subject as important as the NPS.


  241. Bob Mack says:


    I was being serious. I like Tommy. However Colin has much in common with Tommy. Tommy studied law and Social policy. He also thinks the SNP should declare Scotland independent via the mP’s, just like Colin.

    I know Colin has legal or paralegal trIning because of how he frames his questions. I also know he has political experience.
    I also know he has ego and is rather self opinionated.
    I also know he has no great love for the SNP, but refuses to say what alternative is available.

    No, I suspect I am on the right track.Good guy or no.

  242. colin alexander says:

    Bob Mack

    BOB, BROTHERS AND SISTERS, if you think it was bad what the Tories done to the miners, the steelworkers, the working classes throughout Scotland and the rest of Britain.

    Let me warn you now: Brothers and sisters, the Tories are trying to do a lot worse. It’s happening now. Brexit is no aboot saving money to give it to the NHS. It’s no aboot taking back democracy fae the EU.

    This is aboot the ruling Establishment of Britain, these same people that crushed the miners and steelworkers wanting even aw the power to crush the rights that the EU have given the working classes.

    People that know me will say: Tommy, I thought for years you were saying we need to get oot the big bosses club that is the EU?

    Aye, that’s right. I’m no friend of the EU. The EU is nae freen o Scotland either. Look what the EU said in 2014, Look at Catalonia and Greece if you need mair proof that I wis right aboot the EU.

    But, the Tories’ Brexit is a power grab. It’s trying to rob Scotland of whit wee power it has at Holyrood.

    It aims to turn the EU’s rich man’s club into the UK’s rich man’s club, centred on Westminster.

    Oh brothers and sisters, how fitting it is that the robbery of our devolved powers, the total abuse of democracy and the promises that Scotland is an equal partner is done by that Great British affront to democracy, the robber Barons: the unelected, undemocratic Hoose o Lords.

    These thieves don’t wear black and white striped jerseys and wee masks. They don’t run aroon wi a bag marked swag.

    These thieves dress in red capes trimmed wi ermine. They enjoy their fine dining paid for by us.

    But these thieves, they’re no efter your DVD collection or the wife’s jewellery. A good lock cannae stop their theiving.

    These thieves are gonnae rob Scotland’s parliament of its devolved powers. Rob us of our democracy. They are gonnae bleed Scotland dry.

    Brothers and sisters, there is a way we can stoap this. We can stoap these Tory thieves.

    We can stop them by voting for independence.

    Support independence.


    No, I’m not TS, whatever gave you that idea?

  243. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    I continue to be enraged by the lack of Scottish football on BBC on a Saturday night. With Rangers and Celtic both getting beaten and a huge result for Ross County it would be terrific fare for Saturday night.

    But I’ll be able to watch it all tonight.

    Oh no. It’s English football on again tonight – and no Scottish football at all on BBC SCOTLAND this weekend

  244. Dr Jim says:

    Conspiracy theory

    Why does everyone think it was RBS idea to close branches in rural Scotland affecting the elderly, business and tourism
    then when we complain about it Theresa Mays ready answer is “The government doesn’t interfere with commercial decisions” when they clearly do all the time, Steel,Oil, Motor manufacturing, Railways in England to name a few, and that’s not to mention the fact that RBS is publicly owned by around 76%

    Or is it only decisions that affect Scotland badly she doesn’t get involed in

    If Ian Blackford and Pete Wishart don’t get anywhere with this I won’t be blaming RBS I’ll be blaming Theresa May and her big fat lie about her “non interference” policy when it suits her

    Remember folks the Highland clearances according to the latest BBC annihilation of history was mostly voluntary
    I think it went a bit more like, you can leave now or we starve you out or you can die today take your pick

    BI FAB!?? When everybody else is building up renewable industry something peculiar happens to Scotlands main builder and supplier of that stuff? Odd? I think so

    Broadband! London government seems very reluctant to keep their promises on that, Why?

    Immigration! Scotland is around 32,000 square miles with only 5.4 million people in it so why doesn’t London government want people to come to Scotland unless it’s from England?

    I’m sure folk could think of umpteen other examples of London putting the brakes on Scotland

    So that’s my theory

  245. ronnie anderson says:

    Ian Brotherhood I cant zoom into the photo to see the lodge numbers/sashes but thats Jeffrey Robertson front & centre i believe & him & several others are grand lodge of ireland

  246. Fred says:

    @ Ian, nice photy of the brotherhood! 🙂

  247. Bob Mack says:

    Overly conflated response Tommy. Trying to sidetrack ? Reverse Psychology even. You are him, or very close to him politically/ socially.

  248. crazycat says:

    @ ronnie anderson at 9.29

    Jeffrey Donaldson (Geoffrey Robertson QC is a different kettle of fish altogether).

    The two to the right of the front row might be John Taylor and Reg Empey, both now in the Lords. I’m not sure about the latter, though his Wiki entry says “Empey is a member of the Orange Order, his lodge being Eldon LOL 7”.

  249. K1 says:

    But this is what you actually wrote about it last evening?

    ‘colin alexander says:
    3 February, 2018 at 6:50 pm
    galamcennalath / Bob Mack

    The Supreme Court upheld that the Scottish Govt’s Named Person Scheme was “not according to law”. That -as initially proposed -it would breach the Article 8 Human Rights of people.

    It was a snoopers’ charter that would have abused people’s right to a private life.

    Despite repeatedly being warned this was the case, the Scot Govt arrogantly ignored the warnings. Even now, the amended version has struggled to get past the committee due to concerns that there is insufficient guidance in how to operate the scheme lawfully.

    Several professional bodies continue to have serious concerns about the scheme.

    That’s the facts despite how much some SNP supporters try to put a false gloss on the debacle.’


    Rather than actually admit you slandered and portrayed the SG as ‘arrogant’ etc and apologise for the total misrepresentation and your claim that ‘it was a snooper’s charter’ etc etc. You are now backtracking to ‘make’ out it is ‘our’ debate that will allow others to understand this better?

    Small point of fact: The original Bill was tested and challenged legally in the outer and inner house, highest courts in Scotland in 2014. There was no ‘in accordance with Law’ strain of thinking from the SC at that time. The Scottish government didn’t actually get anything ‘wrong’ in this regard at all.

    But the SC altered it’s ‘thinking’ on this matter post 2014, i.e. post 2014 NPS? So there was never a smidgen of ‘wrongness’ in the SNP’s approach with this legislation from the outset and it is ‘that’ alteration of the ‘legal test’ that was brought to bare on the NPS legislation.

    There was never any doubt that the Scottish government would not abide by the SC’s ruling on this. You are still attempting to ‘insinuate’ ‘fault’ from our government in your backtracking here. You are deeply mistaken in your ‘thinking’ on this point.

    The particular aspect from the ruling is exactly as our FM stated: ‘it pointed to what it saw as problems and flaws with the information-sharing provisions. The bill is about rectifying those flaws.’

    I’ve literally posted this a dozen times to you? The current process underway in bringing the Bill onto the statute book is about rectifying those flaws associated with the proportionality wrt sharing of information plus ‘code of practice’ guidelines. It is ‘that’ that was ‘not in accordance with the Law’ of article 8 of the ECHR?

    All of this information was available before your 6.50pm post last night. But here you are now, after my and others efforts, not yours…implying that ‘we’ debated this. No we didn’t.

    You made false and misleading claims, that you are unable, unwilling and uneasy about addressing and apologising for? ‘In light of the information’ that I and others have researched to make the points against your unfounded and lying assertions.

    Stop attempting to ‘rewrite’ history on this very thread to make yourself seem ‘reasonable’, you were not and are not a reasonable man.

    A reasonable man would never have lowered himself to the shoddy and tawdry level you did.

    There is no ‘we’ here.

    Stop digging.

  250. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Ronnie Anderson –

    Aye, it’s a pity they’re not named. It’s like a big football squad from Hell.

    @Fred –

    Ah see whit ye did there!


  251. ronnie anderson says:

    @ K1 Bob Mack planted the seed noo cocoa’s impersonating Tommy Sheridan ( brothers & sisters ) little does that clown know about Tommy i wont say how Tommy greets people when they meet I pull him up for greeting myself in the manner all the time lol.

  252. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Dr Jim, the fact that Scotland has 32,000 sq km for 5.4m people is hardly impressive, considering the mountainous terrain. Norway has 385,000 sq km and a population of 5.3m, for some perspective. Immigrants settle in the existing space in the cities.

  253. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    And aye, thanks Stewartb. And whoever it was who pointed out to me a while back that GIRFEC has been on the go for decades already.

  254. ronnie anderson says:

    Ian Brotherhood Jeffery Donaldson scratch Robertson

  255. colin alexander says:

    Bob Mack

    I have been representing a client who has suffered gross abuses of their Human Rights and DPA rights under the current GIRFEC standards.

    The effects of these abuses on my client by “professionals” who totally flouted the current law, who acted wholly unprofessionally, have been profound and long lasting.

    Thus, from my personal knowledge of how personnel from several care agencies have abused my client, then attempted to justify it with: “We are professionals”, I have had serious concerns not only about the legal wording of the NPS, but just as importantly, how it will be operated in day to day practice, by people who have already abused the DPA and HRA under GIRFEC.

    I am deeply concerned that more staff may unintentionally abuse the human rights of people, who are almost always vulnerable, due to misunderstanding the legislation and assuming it gives them the power to share private data without restriction.

    Worse, there are some who work in Health and Social Care, who deliberately abuse the human rights of others. Where the powerful positions they hold over vulnerable clients encourages them to think they can do whatever they like, as long as they consider it a goal that’s worthy to achieve by any means. However, this ethos, amongst some, creates more harm than good, as I’m all too aware. There are even some whose aims are malicious with no redeeming motivation.

    The DPA and HRA are there for a good reason, it’s to make it clear there are some actions that are not acceptable, even if they were being done with the best of intentions.

    Because, abusing people’s privacy and other human rights are not a mere technicality or a trifling matter: it can, in certain circumstances, cause serious harm to children and families. If powers are wrongly used or abused, instead of helping children and families, it can cause them further unnecessary distress and suffering.

    Thus, it’s right and proper that the nationwide roll-out of this legislation has been delayed until staff are properly aware of their legal responsibilities and are properly trained as to how to remain within the law in their day to day professional duties.

  256. artyhetty says:


    Your theory is water tight imo. Scotland has been being stolen from for a very, very long time. It must be something of a feat, to colonise a country, steal their land, take their very er, lucrative resources, AND siphon away their revenues to spend how you like. England went on a credit card spree big time with Scotland’s money and they even try to attribute a good proportion of their debt to Scotland all at the same time! Win win for the troughers troughing in London’s gov and their dodgy pals across the globe. They think.

    Thing is, Scotland woke up, especially in 2014. Scotland is a forward looking country, and one that is in fact functioning as an independent, thriving, modern country. That is against huge odds of constraints of the so called ‘union’. The union has been severed now. No amount of privatised sutures will keep it together. Too late for that.

  257. Bob Mack says:

    @Ronnie Anderson,

    A small lesson in anipulation. Give them an idea and let them run with it. Helpful for referendums too if used correctly.

  258. Bob Mack says:

    As an ex “professional” in Health Care I was always aware of my responsibilities and duties as defined by law. That is nothing new and indeed applied to lawyers and Health professionals alike.

    What always mattered to me , and to everybody I ever worked with was the welfare ,and security of my clients. At all times.

    You clearly have had some kind of run in with that at some time. However I will tell you this much. I always made it clear I would protect anyone I worked with, but also made it very clear that there were limits as to how far I could go to keep something hidden.

    There are lessons today,where after 30 years ,women are only now telling their stories of abuse in the entertainment field because they are still affected.

    The perpetrator was protected by them albeit by silence,which allowed him to rack up 30 more years of criminal abuse.

    That I would strongly advised against. There are rights and wrongs however you look at it. We sometimes just have to make the best of what we have ,till we improve it.

  259. ben madigan says:

    @Dave McEwan Hill who remarked on
    “Absolutely startling coverage of the dirty war in NI in today’s Sunday Herald.”

    For anyone who is interested -here are a couple of posts on britain’s dirty war in NI. The Stakeknife story is in part 2

  260. colin alexander says:

    Bob Mack

    There are many, like yourself, who understand and practised good data sharing practices; who understand the balancing act between protecting confidentiality and the duty to disclose. Who understand that data sharing must be proportionate to achieving a legitimate aim.

    I accept that it’s not always easy to make the right call, and everyone makes mistakes and errors in judgment. After all, we are all imperfect human beings.

    That’s why there is training, guidance notes and profession specific codes of practice, such as this:

  261. @Reluctant Nationalist

    just for accuracy,

    Scotland is 32,000 sq/mile and 78,000 sq/km.

  262. Dr Jim says:

    I don’t understand some of our so called Scottish Nationalists who don’t want any immigration or any involvement with other countries whether it’s the EU or any of the other trading blocks, how do they think the population and economy will grow to the level we need considering that when folk leave the country who do they think will replace them and contrary to what others might think we’ve got loads of room everywhere

    If we don’t attract other folk to Scotland we’ll end up with the people we don’t want once again forced upon us by whatever new and shiny policy the Tories come up with and that’s likely to be more English folk escaping England because they don’t like foreigners down there and the poor services so they’ll come to Scotland to accept all the benefits here but still remaining loyal to the Crown and vote against the Scottish government who provides those benefits thus no Independence

    That’s if we don’t have Independence first

    I prefer nice foreign folk from overseas who are grateful for coming to a better place to make their life

  263. colin alexander says:

    Dr Jim

    With Brexit etc, I wonder what will happen if Ireland achieves re-unification before Scotland achieves independence.

    Will there be an influx of thousands of the hardest of the hard core of Unionist Ulster Scots who will never accept living anywhere that is not part of the UK?

    They are from overseas but, they aren’t foreign.

    YES would have its work cut out convincing them of the merits of independence. Not so much a NO vote, more a NO Surrender vote.

    Looking on the bright side, house prices should boom in Larkhall and full house at Ibrox every home game and less travel related C02 emissions.

  264. North chiel says:

    Exactly right “ Dr Jim @1143 pm “ , and that is the Westminster Tory plan if they can regain control of “ their Scotland region” after Brexit . Any post Brexit “ colonial investment” in Scotland will be strictly tied to an influx of Yoons to “ administer& manage” “ London’s investments” , and as with the oil& gas industry CV’s from south of the border will be preferred.

  265. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Thanks Scot.

    32000 sqm for Scotland / 148000 sqm for Norway. A little less dwarfing.

  266. Famous15 says:

    Petrol is cheaper in Ireland. Scotland is the only country on earth to end up poorer after oil is found in abundance.

    Better together? aye right!

  267. louis.b.argyll says:

    We need independence.

    They need our wealth.

    We need social advancement.

    They destroy society.

    We need access to our natural resources.

    They belong to our oppressive neighbour.

  268. Sinky says:

    Someone should tell BBC Scotland that unlike in England, many students from poorer backgrounds go to college for a year or two before going on to University.

    Call Kaye making hay over falling numbers of University applicants from poorer backgrounds
    Being discussed on BBC Radio Scotland Morning Call at 9 a.m.
    Contact details

    Phone 0500 92 95 00

    Sms 80295



    Twitter @bbcradioscot

  269. Nana says:

    Scotland’s First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has pledged Scottish Government support to raise the Nancy Glen

    Ian Blackford on bbc Sunday politics re RBS bank closures

  270. Smallaxe says:

    Good morning, Nana,
    It’s a beautiful morning here. Thank you, for your links.
    Kettles on!

  271. heedtracker says:

    Will there be an influx of thousands of the hardest of the hard core of Unionist Ulster Scots who will never accept living anywhere that is not part of the UK?

    If they’r that mobile, why will they not just move to England UK? You’re on fire Colin A.

    Great links Nana, thank you!

  272. heedtracker says:

    Will there be an influx of thousands of the hardest of the hard core of Unionist Ulster Scots who will never accept living anywhere that is not part of the UK?

    Although Colin A, this might make the choices a but different too,

    Gerry Adams backs Jeremy Corbyn as next PM

    Oh aren’t the Better Together 18th century tribes of teamGB just loverly Colin a.

  273. Nana says:

    Good morning Smallaxe 🙂

  274. Macart says:

    Mornin’ Nana

    Back from my travels and thanks for the reading. 🙂

  275. heedtracker says:

    North Sea oil tax haul gushes to £1bn as crude prices recover

    If we had voted YES 2014, Scots oil tax haul gushing straight in to the Scottish Treasury to be invested in Scotland, not the south of England and we may even be considering EU membership, if the EU allowed nation state Scotland to apply, in another universe of non England rule:-(

  276. heedtracker says:

    North Sea oil tax haul gushes to £1bn as crude prices recover

    And in that alternative Scottish universe, we might be using the Scots oil gusher to pay for pavement to be gritted in Aberdeen
    this winter perhaps, or even getting decent pot hole free roads in Glasgow.

    But no doubt our imperial masters are far better at investing oil tax gushers in England than the Scots could ever be in this UKOK universe.

  277. Nana says:

    Morning Heedy 🙂

    @Macart It’s good to get away 🙂

    A couple more links

    Looks like someone has already stripped the magic money tree

    A Tory council has become the first in 20 years to ban all new expenditure after completely running out of money.

    Tom Devine on the Highlands & Lowland Clearances

  278. galamcennalath says:

    Nana says:

    Fascinating, the msm’s involvement in this affair. Shows Scotland and the Indy movement are only part of the UK msm’s hard right agenda.

    Msm version: nasty left wing students attack Rees-Mogg (all round good egg, barmaid’s gentleman, potential Tory leader, and Saviour of the Brexit Universe) and riot

    Actual events: an anti fascist group of students shout down Rees-Mogg (English nationalist, holder of hard right views, an appropriate target for anti fascists), then a skinhead martial arts thug and fan of RM charges in, hits a woman on the face, and protestors move to protect the woman

    The MSM clearly see their role as an agency of the English Nationalist right wing in all things.

  279. galamcennalath says:

    @ me

    Should be “aren’t the only part”, sorry

  280. heedtracker says:

    A Tory council has become the first in 20 years to ban all new expenditure after completely running out of money.

    I know all about them because I listen to the Nic Robinson vote tory Today show, 6-9 am weekdays, bbc r4 tory brainwashing network.

    Beeb r4 gimps were really on it with Northamptonshire Council doing mental stuff like blowing £50 million on a new council HQ but now have to sell it because… they’ve run out of other peoples money and we all know the rest.

    But if you’re from Aberdeen, we have UKOK catastrofucks like future SLab Lord Wullie Young blowing £100+ million on another white elephant city centre office block, right in front of his new council HQ, that he’s blown, sorry, invested, over £100+ million renovating, which the council does not actually own, its a lease, from Aberdeen uni,

    and Aberdeen now has a £1.3+bn debt.

    From BBC r4 Today show gimp network, nary a peep about their Scottish unionist councilor chums, like future Sir William Young OBE.

  281. Ottomanboi says:

    @CameronB Brodie
    I’ve no prob with nationalism, its track record in worldwide, anti-colonial liberation movements is sound. Patriotism, the folkish thing BritState is happy with, on the other hand with its bed fellow jingoism and silly flag fetishism is another matter. The German Nazis though themselves exceptional, as did the Empire British. Nothing there that is ‘nationalist’ but plenty that is ‘racist’.

  282. heedtracker says:

    The MSM clearly see their role as an agency of the English Nationalist right wing in all things.

    So in precis, God bless the Queen and her fascist regime.

    Scotland’s getting closer to breaking free though.

  283. Nana says:

    Brexit chaos shatters Theresa May’s illusion of unity

    The civil service is the latest to be flamed by Jacob Rees-Mogg and co, who blame everyone but themselves

  284. galamcennalath says:

    TMay insisting Brexit won’t be into customs union with the EU. Big MSM Monday morning story.

    According to BrexitOptions, customs union alone is classed as ‘hardish’.

    However! It should be noted that Norway is in both EEA and EFTA but NOT in customs union with the EU.

    Very soon TMay is going to have to clarfy to the EU what sort of post Brexit deal she wants. I reckon she will repeat the ‘cherry picked cake’ plan, again. Enough goodies to placate the saner Tories and enough control to appease the loony right. And the EU will say, “homeward and think again”.

    TMay has to decide which way Brexit goes from the actual options the EU will accept, and soon.

    So signs of that so far.

  285. Robert Graham says:

    o/t Right now on the Wright Stuff , a discussion about the EU and a call to the viewers of their opinion of the brexateers , your country and mine never got a mention , The opinion seems to be that they can negotiate a good deal , oh f/k the deluded leading the naive doesn’t come close ,

    The idea this Tory party are going to walk in and dictate terms , will have the EU delegation rolling about on the floor laughing , the media pushing a dream of England’s greatness is truly sad and baffling , and the idea that the first round was successful and complete , oh god please intervene .

    And for Christs sake please waken up these stupid bloody Scots who cling to this Union .

  286. heedtracker says:

    The civil service is the latest to be flamed by Jacob Rees-Mogg and co, who blame everyone but themselves

    To be fair, Rees-Mogg’s probably been to the UKOK Civil Service Award ceremony, not Beverly Hills though.

    Rees-Mogg probably sat next to the UK Civil Service equivalent of Gwyneth Paltrow, wildly applauding the UK Civil Service staff that came out with this. And now its Rees Moggs turn.

    Pisani said:

    “We all had something in common, SOFT Brexit, softest imaginable, so Soft, it was like a UKOK baby’s bottom and

    we’re trying to save the UK in the EU here, and it came so close. We just kept it by the skin of our teeth. I actually cried when the result came in. After 10 years in the civil service, my proudest moment is tonight and receiving this award.”

    He added: “As civil servants you don’t get involved in politics. For the first time in my life, suddenly we’re part of a political campaign.

    We were doing everything from the analysis, to the advertising, to the communications. I just felt a massive sense of being part of the operation. This being recognised [at the Civil Service Awards], makes me feel just incredibly proud.”

    And Doyle added: “This award is not just for the Treasury, it’s for all the hard work that was done by all government departments on the Soft Brexit agenda.”

    Once again, its funny when its happening to the tories:D

  287. jfngw says:

    Read the weeginger dug, I see now that May is like the appeaser Chamberlain, not Thatcher as she sees herself. The only difference is her appeasement is trying to square the circle in the Tory party, I wait with baited breadth her ‘prosperity in out time’ piece of paper.

    I suppose Johnson will now see himself as Churchill, saviour of the nation.

  288. colin alexander says:


    I can’t praise the SNP Scottish Govt highly enough for this:

    The news has announced that the Scottish Govt will run an information campaign highlighting the dangers of SEPSIS. Please take notice of it, this knowledge could save a loved one’s life, even your own.

    SEPSIS IS A POTENTIAL KILLER . It can kill quickly too. It kills young healthy people and the elderly, but with prompt treatment, people can be saved.

  289. heedtracker says:

    colin alexander says:
    5 February, 2018 at 10:17 am

    I can’t praise the SNP Scottish Govt highly enough for this:

    Awe. That’s nice of you Colin A.

    In other news from our imperial masters, or how to get from, the impartial and unbiased UK civil servants wept at defeating the Scots 2015,


    Stinky olde The Graun, 2018

    Civil service

    Ex-top civil servant likens Tory Brexiters to snake oil sellers
    Gus O’Donnell says attacks over impartiality are ‘completely crazy’ and ‘ridiculous’

    This is actual news today Colin A, I’m not making this shit up, like what you do,

    I mean, lets pick n mix Colin A, UKOK style shall we. See if you can spot just how hard our imperial masters lie, impartially and unbiasedly, to protect all sorts of great Britishness,


    “The former cabinet secretary Gus O’Donnell has compared Brexiter ministers and MPs to snake oil sellers after sustained attacks upon senior civil servants for lacking impartiality.
    Lord O’Donnell, who served under Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and David Cameron, said attacks on Whitehall officials were “completely crazy” and “ridiculous”


    “We all had something in common, we’re trying to save the Union here, and it came so close. We just kept it by the skin of our teeth. I actually cried when the result came in. After 10 years in the civil service, my proudest moment is tonight and receiving this award.”


    “His comments follow claims by the Brexit minister Steve Baker, who rubbished government forecasts, and the prominent Tory Brexiter Jacob Rees-Mogg, who accused the Treasury of “fiddling the figures” to show Britain would be worse off outside the EU, whatever the outcome of the negotiations.”


    “He added: “As civil servants you don’t get involved in politics. For the first time in my life, suddenly we’re part of a political campaign. We were doing everything from the analysis, to the advertising, to the communications. I just felt a massive sense of being part of the operation. This being recognised [at the Civil Service Awards], makes me feel just incredibly proud.”


    O’Donnell said honesty and objectivity ran through the core of civil servants “like a stick of rock”, and the forecasts which came from Whitehall would have been made in good faith.”

    What a bunch. Is it possible that Scotland could be run just a tad better than this giant tory clusterfuck in London Colin A, as their massed ranks of beeb gimps try to vote NO vote JC brainwash us all up here in their annoying Scotland region?

  290. Fred says:

    @ Ian Brotherhood, checked the Parliament Ludge out!

  291. heedtracker says:

    colin alexander says:
    5 February, 2018 at 10:17 am

    I can’t praise the SNP Scottish Govt highly enough for this:

    Are you really Tommy Sheridan, Colin A?

  292. galamcennalath says:

    Robert Graham says:

    the media pushing a dream of England’s greatness is truly sad and baffling

    Exceptionalism and entitlement – the two endemic viruses of English Nationalism.

    It is just possible one good thing can come out of Brexit – the UK, or what’s left if it once the dust settles, finally learns it true place in the world. An unexceptional corner of an archipelago off the coast of Europe. Another small to middling country among many others.

  293. colin alexander says:


    In the UK and Scottish media, the main focus has been on the protracted wrangling during Brexit negotiations between the EU and UK Govt but, another important negotiation has been happening: devolution.

    There has been much talk of a second EU referendum and indeed, a second independence referendum.

    The UK is attempting to reserve EU powers to Westminster, when EU powers are devolved powers according to the Scotland Act 2016.

    If the UK Govt amends (or betrays) the devolution settlement, which says devolved powers would go to Holyrood: This would be a major constitutional change.

    This issue would be just as deserving of being put to the electorate as leaving the EU or becoming independent.

    It remains unclear if or when a second independence referendum may be held. However, there is no doubt the UK Govt are attempting major changes to the constitutional arrangement for Scotland within the Union.

    The sovereign people of Scotland MUST be given a final say on these changes. They are as fundamental to the constitutional arrangement for Scotland as being dragged out the EU or deciding whether to become independent.

  294. heedtracker says:

    packhorse pete says:
    5 February, 2018 at 10:04 am
    @ heedtracker 9.25 re Oil

    Be fascinating watching a paper trail of where the not Scots oil revenue actually goes. Probably straight into the teamGB debt mountain kitty.

  295. Meg merrilees says:

    Galamcennalath @ 10.04

    I think you must be making things up!
    There’s absolutely nothing about that in the Scottish newspapers – just imagine the damage if we were out of the Customs Union…

    No, I believe the today’s Scotsman – it’s the SNP who has fired the ‘opening shots’ in a post-brexit war’ over resisting changes to the movement of livestock.

    The truth is a rarity these days, sadly, but would you believe it, front page news on the ‘P and J’ today is that there is snow on the hills in February in Aberdeenshire.

    Aren’t our Scottish newspapers are just smashing.

  296. louis.b.argyll says:

    Ban bold text now.
    Also people who repeadedly use commas after ‘but’ are clearly trolls.

  297. Cactus says:

    JK reminds may of this guy:

    But at half the speed… a rouge card fur Kelly please.

    Is that that Strewth Davidson shouting “SD” again, fae the sand pit?

    Don’t tax em… FREE them.

    Free yerself.

    Eureka! ~

    We see.

    Si oui.

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