Closing ranks
When we commissioned our poll, we were about 50/50 in terms of whether the mainstream media would cover it. When the results came in, we cautiously shifted to 60/40 in favour. No matter how piqued the press was about this site’s scrutiny of it for the last year and a half, we reasoned, these results were dynamite and surely couldn’t be ignored by any journalist with a shred of conscience or dignity.
Who would have thought that we, of all people, could be guilty of so over-estimating the integrity and professionalism of Scotland’s newspapers and broadcasters?
Despite the full data tables having been available for analysis since Friday afternoon, the silence from the Sunday papers today is deafening.
In the Sunday Herald, there’s not a single word. In Scotland on Sunday, nothing. In the Sunday Mail and Sunday Post, zip. In the Scottish Sun On Sunday, zero.
The Sunday Times, too, is a blank. Their big Scottish politics lead is a thunderously idiotic piece from Jenny Hjul about how the absurd non-story around an Alex Salmond school visit in Aberdeen will apparently bring about the FM’s resignation.
In a nice touch, she cites “an Ipsos Mori poll last month, which found 28% in favour of breaking up Britain and 57% against”. The last Ipsos poll was conducted in May, not July, but oddly Ms Hjul doesn’t cite the most recent independence poll – which WAS conducted in July, by Panelbase – and which put the numbers far closer at 37 to 46. Which is curious, because that poll was commissioned by the Sunday Times.
To find the only mention of the week’s dramatic revelations, we have to descend into the fetid swamp that is the Scottish Mail On Sunday, whose entire political department conducted a bizarre sustained personal trolling attack on us on Twitter yesterday based around our supposed “anonymity” (apparently not having noticed the bylines right at the top of every piece we publish). Here’s their take:
“SNP monster on the wing
WINGS Over Scotland is not some Paul McCartney outfit with mullets, platform soles and a pipe band but a supposedly serious, non-party-political website backing independence. So, having interviewed 1,000 Scots for its Panelbase survey, what vital facts did it uncover? That Scots are less scared of space monsters than of a Tory Government.
Curiously, the survey did not ask more crucial questions such as the one we will be asked next year – essentially ‘Do you want Scotland to leave the UK and go independent with the SNP in charge?’ Since Alex Salmond, unlike the space monsters, now looms large on the horizon, many Scots may see him as the more scary prospect.”
And that’s it. By default, the Scottish Mail On Sunday has just published the best coverage of a professional poll conducted by a respectable polling organisation with a properly-weighted and balanced sample, which found that 67% of Scots believed Scotland would get no new powers after a No vote, or would even lose them.
The same poll found that just 6% of Scots thought their media was serving them adequately in terms of delivering information about independence. This morning, we’re finding it impossible to disagree.
It’s not as if the poll was pushed off the pages by other bigger political stories. The papers are unusually almost entirely bereft of politics news today – SoS scrapes up a content-free piece about Michael Moore doing some vague non-committal waffling about welfare powers, while the Herald’s big investigative exclusive is a feeble straw-clutching piece on some Labour MSPs renting office space from a lobbying company. (Something which was neither secret nor remotely illegal or unethical.)
In fact, there’s very little big news at all, with most publications leading with Rangers, despite there being nothing much to actually report that hasn’t been known for days.
(Fans aren’t impressed with Charles Green, he’s not backing down. That’s the story in ten words, everything else is just speculation and padding. The Sunday Herald’s front-page splash on the club running out of money before the end of the season actually appeared in the daily paper on Wednesday.)
It’s not that they didn’t know. We alerted dozens of journalists directly as soon as we started publishing the results on Thursday. Only three had the courtesy to even acknowledge the messages, and only one (the BBC’s James Cook) tweeted anything about the poll, never mind an article.
And it’s not that the data being released here first made it old news. We’ve documented countless times recently how the Scottish press is happy to retread days-old, weeks-old or even months-old stories – even if they’ve been comprehensively scooped by their rivals 24 hours before, let alone appeared on some humble website.
So the only conclusion it’s possible to draw is that the Scottish media is simply frightened and ashamed. Frightened that the Scottish public grew tired of waiting for them to do their job and took matters into their own hands, crowdfunding and commissioning a poll asking the questions they really wanted asked, engaging directly in the debate and taking the media out of the equation entirely. (Something that ought to have made the story newsworthy in itself, never mind the poll’s findings.)
And ashamed not only of their own ineptitude and the huge lack of faith the people of Scotland have in them, but by their own lack of even-handedness and honesty: exposed beyond any question, once and for all and forever, by their silence today.
In the future, when newspapers are only a memory and your children ask you when Scotland’s press finally collectively gave up any last shred of pretence at being proper journalists, you can give them an exact date. Mark it in your diaries now so that you remember it. 11 August 2013 was the Scottish media’s day of disgrace.
Can we be sure that journalists ignored the poll, or were they told not to cover it?
Because your poll didn’t give them the results they like to portray in the press.
I can only agree with you Stu. I certainly hoped at least some part of the MSM would have picked up the ball and ran with it but, sadly, I can’t say I am surprised.
I really don’t have time for most newspapers in general. Often there is a few articles worth reading but generally it’s some heavily-biased viewpoint being smugly advocated that’s insufferable to read even if I agree with it.
There will be those, sadly, who will take the point of view that a ‘seperatist’ website has just wasted thousands of pounds on a poll, which has been widely ignored, and will find it incredibly funny.
Lets do another, and another, and another…………….
Fuck ’em.
Keep shouting from the rooftops.
We will win.
It is probably 5 years now since I stopped buying a newspaper when I was in Scotland and about 12 months since I stopped even looking at their websites.
I have a better respect for my own opinions now and can find the unbiased news better and easily on the web by myself.
What are the odds of getting together some sort of press release and getting political blog sites like Reid Foundation & even European media to pick it up? Scottish MSM is being a complete cock about this, but what about the English/Welsh/Irish MSM – they might not even know that its there
Although this report is written from a London right wing perspective its publication next month should draw Scottish comparisons.
A statistical analysis of BBC reports challenges its claim to fairness, writes Oliver Latham
The question of whether or not the BBC is biased has been a matter of heated debate for almost as long as the corporation has been broadcasting. The BBC is frequently accused of displaying systematic biases in its reporting. One study into BBC1’s Panorama programme, for example, found it had anti-business, anti-market and anti-American leanings.
When Minotaur Media Tracking measured the level and content of the BBC Radio 4 Today programme’s coverage of the European Union, it found the BBC gave less coverage to EU issues than the newspapers and gave roughly twice as much coverage to pro-EU voices as anti-EU. However, for the most part, previous accusations of bias do not seem to have had much impact on the public: opinion polling suggests the BBC remains the most trusted news organisation in Britain (although its lead has been falling in recent years).
Perhaps one reason for this is that existing studies tend to use individual snippets to prove impartiality has been breached, rather than making a more statistical analysis. Given that many people’s immediate reflex is to trust the BBC and distrust its critics, these studies tend to preach to the converted.
That’s where my report, Bias at the Beeb, to be published by the Centre for Policy Studies next month, is different. It uses objective, quantitative measures to look for evidence of slant in the BBC’s online reporting. Our results suggest the BBC exhibits a left-of-centre bias in both the amount of coverage it gives to different opinions and the way in which these voices are represented.
The first thing we do is to look at the level of coverage the BBC gives to different think tanks on its website. We then compare this with the coverage given to these same think tanks by The Guardian and The Daily Telegraph newspapers.
Continues…. from Sunday Times
Good article on NNS by the way and a compliment to the Rev.
Is anyone really surprised? We do not have an objective media in this country. Anyone who still believes so is a fool. It will be very interesting to see the reaction when these poll results are mentioned on the BBC, for example by an independence supporter. No doubt the interviewer will be briefed to dismiss it out of hand if and when it does come up, but I hope that the interviewee stick to his or her guns and takes issue with blatant evasion.
Then pro Independence organisations need to promote this astonishing poll and instead of answering bullshit loaded questions insert and cite the poll results within any reply or statement they make…….thereby promoting a properly conducted poll, one of the few ever done, especially when lame alleged journalists say that seven folk in Scotland support ‘separation’ etc.
Fuck them, the world has moved on without them.
“There will be those, sadly, who will take the point of view that a ‘seperatist’ website has just wasted thousands of pounds on a poll, which has been widely ignored, and will find it incredibly funny.”
Oh, no doubt. But they’ve been remarkably quiet about it so far, because whether the press covers it or not, the data is now out there. (And if we’ve shown anything at all, it’s the rapidly increasing irrelevance of the media.) We’ve smashed all our pageview records to smithereens this week. The genie is out of the bottle, and it’s sobering enough to choke any sneers in the No camp. If we do get any, you’ll be able to hear their voice cracking.
Linda’s back
I guess Scottish Independence and the SNP must be the wrong kind of slightly left of centre, and the wrong kind of pro-EU, to warrant reporting in a supportive way.
“It will be very interesting to see the reaction when these poll results are mentioned on the BBC, for example by an independence supporter.”
Perhaps we should all ring Call Kaye on Monday and chat about it.
“Lines are open from 0800 every weekday morning: 0500 92 95 00
You can text 80295 or send your emails to callkaye@bbc.co.uk“
I had hopes that BBC Good Morning Scotland would feature the poll yesterday – for some reason the Saturday edition seems to be more even handed than the weekday edition. (Derek Bateman, Isabel Fraser?)
But, no, nothing.
So how do pointless ‘think-tanks’ get their non-news puff-pieces reported? Do we need to hire a PR guru?
The SNP Media Centre hasn’t mentioned the poll either. What do we make of that?
http://www.snp.org/media-centre
Possibly a D-notice has been issued. Keep the people dumb, keep the people dim.
But they have covered one study, which proclaims that not only will there be jam today, but jam tomorrow too:
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/scotland/article1298976.ece
I have a feeling ‘they’ will set the attack dogs on this site proper at some point.
What of the so called fair and balanced Sunday Herald. Have they been using their Sunday edition to string pro indy supporters along up to now. Folk like me who have given them the benefit of the doubt will need to have a long hard think about whether to visit their site again, as are they any better than the rabid unionist red tops and the discredited Scotsman in this matter?
Have to say folks – what do you expect for the press & media in Scotland; other than little or no comment about panel base poll or trying to smear supporters of YES campaign.
They will have infiltrated just about everything by now.
Its only the start of this and it will get much, much worse.
They have the reigns but we still have the streets; and marches / protests / demonstrations are where its at for coverage – get the kids out there. They cant ignore the public forever. We should all support the marhces against the BBC far more.
Either we get journalists to confirm intervention, strong arming editorial decisions via a seperate poll or article or we get just as ‘clever’ with coverage.
“an Ipsos Mori poll last month, which found 28% in favour of breaking up Britain and 57% against”.”
As I’ve mentioned before, that poll should be ignored. Putting aside MORI are now the only pollster to use the landline only telephone method – which is universally accepted as not longer reliable – it was well out on the Moreno question (way too many ‘British’ feeling people) thus not a representative sample of the Scottish electorate. Also on the higher side of variance (+/-3%) with respect to No.
I rarely exclude a poll from my running averages etc, but this one had to go due to the Moreno results. People don’t change their national identity in the space of a few months.
The fact that MORI didn’t notice what their own data tables clearly showed hardly fills one with confidence in their polling standards.
What is more intriguing is that the SNP and YES Scotland haven’t been saying much about the survey either. I think this site is wonderful but spends far too much time moaning about the partiality and deficiencies of the press, a pretty pointless exercise really as most people who come here won’t need much convincing (and the rest really don’t care).
Why are the SNP not all over some of the results in the survey?
“The SNP Media Centre hasn’t mentioned the poll either. What do we make of that?”
Yeah – as we’ve noted before, the mainstream media playing dumb isn’t any great shock, but what HAS surprised and disappointed me is how little backup we’ve had from the Yes side. NNS have now done two pieces, so fair play to them, and of course Yes Scotland did a story, but from the other pro-indy big hitters there’s been nary a peep. Bella are still silent. National Collective tweeted the Yes Scotland page but none of ours. It’s curious.
It will be interesting to see what the next MORI poll looks like. There could be no actual underlying change but a match on the Moreno question combined with a No on the lower side of variance could result in an apparent large swing away from pro-union. That would be amusing and suddenly MORI would no longer be the pro-union favourite.
Bunter
I agree, it is simply copies sold driven and then they will nuance it back to get whatever sales they want with only a small reduction in the No bilge; just enough to string us along.
May I suggest that Blair Jenkins gets on the phone to STV and arrange to come into the studio sometime this week to appear on their political programme “Scotland Tonight” which starts another run tomorrow night. On the show, Blair can update the viewers on how well the Yes Campaign is doing, then seamlessly go into the results of the latest Panel Base poll results and highlight the most important points to come out of the poll.
The MSM is the Establishment. The Establishment believes it has an absolute devine right to control and to set the agenda, which includes what society reads in newspapers. Rev, you are not the Establishment (a fact that you should be proud of). In their eyes you have committed a great wrong. You have circumvented the usual channels and effectively cut them out from the loop. They will not like that. You can expect some hefty attacks on you in the coming weeks, so be prepared. If you have some skeletons gathering dust in the odd closet, they will be trying to find them.
I think what needs to be understood is that the UK is not really a democracy. I would define it as a “Controlled Democracy” where the process of making a decision, at the level of the electorate, is carefully manipulated through, for instance, the MSM. We read what they want us to read, we watch and listen to what they want us to see and hear. That includes the use of polling. The ability to exhibit freedom of thought and action is their worst nightmare. By carrying out this poll and publishing the results in the uncontrolled and free space of the internet, WOS has gone beyond the pale in the eyes of the MSM. It also compounds what everyone already knows; that the paper press is very quickly dying a death. Anyone can now be the “press.” You have proved it. An example has been set. New media has come of age and the potential of that power, from the viewpoint of the MSM, must be a very scary prospect indeed.
WOS has effectively kicked sand in the face of the Establishment. The Westminster beast will not like it and you can be sure that the propaganda arm of the Establishment, that we call the MSM, will be chewing over the implications of your actions. You have underminded their control, you have added fuel to the commercial meltdown that the paper press is suffering. Power to your keyboard and keep up the excellent work.
We’ve smashed all our pageview records to smithereens this week.
Will you provide us with an update on readership stats? I’d be very interested.
WoS is now hitting electorally significant numbers and that’s probably why the MSM is quiet on the poll rather than just not liking the results.
Can hardly find a indy story that you can use to make a reference to the Panelbase poll results. Cant really insert it in a story about Rangers lol.. Almost total shutdown on indy stories.
What’s a newspaper?
Question for next poll. “The WOS poll received no media coverage – why do you think this was?”
Remember when Lord Ashcroft’s Trident poll was all over the press? Front age I think with some.
I don’t see why anyone should pay to phone a BBC show either.
WOS, was this data sent to RT, al-Jazeera, etc?
“Perhaps we should all ring Call Kaye on Monday and chat about it.”
I wouldn’t bet on it.
Comments on BBC Scottish politcal blogs: gone.
Sportsound facebook page*: gone.
https://www.facebook.com/BBCSportsound
Radio Scotland Saturday football phone-in*: gone.
Call Kaye: not gone yet, but we can but hope.
* BBC Scotland too skint to moderate/take calls/worried about people mentioning Charlotte Fakeovers/who knows?
I realise Panelbase had just asked the straight Yes/No question a fortnight earlier, which is why you didn’t see any reason to waste good money asking it again, Rev, but if you had, I think the poll would have been harder to ignore — the mainstream media tend always to report the latest indyref opinion figures. It would also have ensured it would have been mentioned on the UK Polling Report, the Wikipedia page about the indyref, etc.
I also like to think that the results perhaps would have been slightly different from what we normally see if the question had been asked at the end of the WoS poll, simply because the respondent would have spent some time thinking about the downsides of a No vote.
Finally, the results for Yes/No would have been useful for extra crosstabs, so the money wouldn’t have been entirely wasted in its own right.
Another possibility is that the hands-off owners of the newspapers and the BBC are on the phone to the independent Editors of these outlets reminding them who is in charge.
Or they don’t know how to handle it; giving serious analysis and coverage of the Poll would be like a declaration, and not one they want to make.
Well, I haven’t wasted money on buying the papers for years and I’m pretty cynical about the msm in general. But I am surprised. I agree with Rev Stu’s 50/50 guess – I did think there was a good chance it would be picked up at least by the Sunday herald. I mean the data were available on Friday – perfect timing – and the crowdfunding not to mention the actual findings make a good story, no question. Plus it would have been an easy cheap story – the work already done for them.
the conclusion must be that they are feart to direct more readers to this site and that fear trumps any impulse these hacks may still have to, y’know, report stuff that’s of interest in an impartial way.
My other half has bought a couple of copies of the Sunday Herald in recent weeks as it has clearly been moving in a more positive direction. Not supporting it today, that’s for sure.
“Curiously, the survey did not ask more crucial questions such as the one we will be asked next year – essentially ‘Do you want Scotland to leave the UK and go independent with the SNP in charge?’ Since Alex Salmond, unlike the space monsters, now looms large on the horizon, many Scots may see him as the more scary prospect”
This makes me see red!! The mainstream media continually and consistently put forward this lie to the public that the Referendum is a vote for the SNP and Alex Salmond!
Personally I think the public have nothing to fear from an SNP government wth Alex Salmond in charge, theres certainly no credible alternative from any of the other political parties at the moment, and given that the people of Scotland returned the SNP as a majority government in the last Holyrood elections, the electorate must agree! The SNP government are doing a great job, considering the limited budget and powers permitted by Westminster at the moment. We should be emphasising what an even better job the Scottish government would make, given the full powerrs that Independence will bring!
I HATE ALL THIS ALEX SALMOND BASHING!!! He is the ONLY leader of any political party in the UK who is actually sticking up for the people of Scotland!
Rant over…. but this really bugs me!
Email sent to Callkaye this morning.
I won’t hold my breath.
I HATE ALL THIS ALEX SALMOND BASHING!!!
So do the electorate going by the polls, and not only Rev’s one (where he’s trusted the most of all). SNP on 48% in the last VI by panelbase.
Salmond bashing seems to be one of the most ineffective political tactics ever devised.
‘If publishers and editors exert themselves to keep certain topics out of print, it is not because they are frightened of prosecution but because they are frightened of public opinion. In this country intellectual cowardice is the worst enemy a writer or journalist has to face, and that fact does not seem to me to have had the discussion it deserves.‘
George Orwell, from ‘The Freedom of the Press’.
Full essay here:
http://www.orwell.ru/library/novels/Animal_Farm/english/efp_go
They ignored the poll because they are ant-independence, or their paper’s editorial line is BritNat. They are not professional; they are simple slaves to their bosses. An original thought rarely enters their collective heads.
Who is still buying their How to be a BritNat manuels?
In some ways it’s probably not surprising because the last thing that the press, in their downward death spiral, want to do is draw further attention to online news sources thus hastening their own demise.
There is a bonus – those who would like to gloat at the lack of response by the Mainstream media cannot; because to do so would draw attention to exactly what ‘nobody is covering’. Wanting to gloat, but holding it back, will stick in their throats!!
Thank you, NewsNetScotland, for the ‘Invisibility’ and ‘Bullshit’ indices.
There have been remarkably few polls taken (or announced) recently. The few that have been around like the Times the other week suggest that Yes is slowly edging up as are Don’t Knows. It may be that BT have had a reality check on the negativity and are sucking their teeth on what to do next. Even Curtice on his blog as someone linked the other day thinks the numbers are closer than the poll suggest and given he has hardly been pro-independence should give the No Scotland pause for thought.
The BBC seem to be backing off the whole referendum thing at the moment too. I wonder if London has told them to cool their heels as their bias is showing.
The leopard doesn’t change its shorts though and I think that bias will reveal itself in coming months.
It might be a good thing that BritNAT’s continue to stick their head in the sand. Doing their best to keep the electorate and the general reading public ignorant may just be a indication of their fears.
Personally i’m very disappointed with the Sunday Herald lack of coverage…. it occasionally at least tries to give their readers both sides of the story.
Oh how i wish their was a visible pro-independence newspaper around that had completely different headlines to all the usual MSM culprits
Re the Alex Salmond bashing – I thought that bit in the Mail story was v funny. AS is so much of a scary monster for the Scottish electorate that they keep voting for his party in elections, and his personal ratings are consistently good. That’s an inconvenient fact though.
PS sorry for lack of paragraphs in last comment. Not sure about this editor thing on the iPhone.
I reckon the WOS panelbase poll holed the No campaign ship below the waterline, and Captain No has told his crew to pretend that nothing damaging has occurred.From a Unionist stance the results are shocking.
And as for Blair McDougal, what do his masters do? His intemperate response to the WOS invitation to debate wasn’t astute and now followed by the views of him expressed in the panelbase poll?
“A crowdfunded poll on independence? Shit, I wish I’d thought of that”, is the likely envious thoughts of others.
I think it might be smart for SNP not to mention the poll just yet. The reason being, if they do then WoS, like LFI will be beasted by MSM as a cult or some SNP outlet. Thereafter no matter what you print or report the damage has already been done. What it shows for me is that the MSM are in cahoots, either through the old pals network or through NUJ political influence. I am sure they must find honest journalism scarier than aliens. Keep up the great work!
I mentioned the “only 18% of Scots would vote to join the Union..” on a Herald thread the other day and got a lot of thumbs up (45 when I looked), even though it was a long way into the thread, when people tend not to go so far. It would suggest that a lot of people are reading about this. A reply comment gave a lot more details about other parts of the Poll.
“What of the so called fair and balanced Sunday Herald. Have they been using their Sunday edition to string pro indy supporters along up to now. Folk like me who have given them the benefit of the doubt will need to have a long hard think about whether to visit their site again,”
Yep, fuck ’em.
I seem to get through a lot of mobile phones. I’ve phoned and got through to Call Kaye three times but each successful connection was with a different phone. I can only assume that each phone has been subsequently barred after my successful attempts. Sadly, I don’t work for Carphone Warehouse.
I think the rest of the YES campaign should be brought to task over this. I feel there is an element of the “cringe” about this and frankly we are too much of the “fundamentalists” for them to give outright coverage of our poll as it may in some way “be compromised” BS i know but it is just my hunch.
I know not all will be in favour of this given the coverage we received (or didn’t) but perhaps next time round we canvass Bella, Newsnet, National Collective, LFI and the Reid foundation to see if they have any contributions to the content they would like to see included. I know we fund raised for it but it would make it more inclusive and hopefully therefore more published. Thoughts??
Er, there was other Scottish political news out over the weekend:
Joan “a large pinot grigio please – did you know I used to be married to a pop star?” McAlpine got cited as the other woman in Mark “Montague Burton” McLachlan’s divorce case.
Telegraph, Scottish print edition.
Who’s Joan McAlpine?
“Full essay here:”
I’ll be having that.
Well said, Craig M…I agree entirely, it’s time for new methods, and the MSM are left floundering in the same kind of bogs which consumed the dinosaurs of another age. Turkeys wouldn’t vote for Christmas if they had a vote, and the “gentlemen” of the fourth estate will use everything at their disposal to discredit you.
“Don’t shoot the messenger”…? Plus ca change, rien ne plus change…’twas ever thus.
Watch your back…
It may upset the MSM even more if we were to suggest that another similar ‘people powered’ poll would be conducted in say three to six months time? I would most certainly make a second contribution for another poll, if for no other reason that it appears to have blindsided the propaganda shamen in the Scottish press. So lets do it again.
If you want to start a WoS Political Party with a constitution and all necessary policies to be recognised as one, I would join.
Frightened that the Scottish public grew tired of waiting for them to do their job and took matters into their own hands, crowdfunding and commissioning a poll asking the questions they really wanted asked…
Nailed it, congrats WoS. Many people down here are following the referendum closely because we hope that one day we too will have one. Crowd sourcing the money and questions for this poll is something that could be replicated elsewhere and not just for independence.
As others have pointed out I agree that the most likely explanation for the failure of the MSM to cover the results of the poll is simply to avoid giving any kind of publicity to this blog. The more people that are directed here by reading about it in print the greater the danger to them. Just look at how the LFI profile was raised after being accused of being an SNP sham.
They are just trying to avoid another own goal.
Coverage on yes Clydesdale F/B page
And while you’re there have a read at Issue 5 of the excellent online magazine
https://www.facebook.com/YesClydesdale?filter=3
Yeah, we can all “understand” the reason the MSM hiv’ny covered the results, but why oh why hiv the pro independence sites no covered it?
Telegraph, Scottish print edition.
More people live in Bathgate than read the Telegraph.
Says it all really about the quality of content/journalistic standards.
The Sunday Times has in fact responded with a story by a Jason Allardyce about what a bunch of mars bar and jam eating terrible toothed fat bastards we all are.
If that’s what they think of us then of course we should stay in the Union.
I remember a poll run by the Bitter Together campaign round about January time when the BBC Scotland team and MSM ran with the results from that poll because it suited their agenda, but when it is a poll that goes against everything they stand for, that you had the cheek to run a poll without them knowing, then they will be absolutely furious and the only way they can get back at you is to totally ignore the poll. They try a similar tactic with the Labour for Independence movement, their tactic with that is to rubbish it and laugh at it. Similar tactics because it is all done through utter FEAR.
Notwithstanding all the other “most important points” (and there are many) to come out of this whole exercise – I really feel that perhaps THE most important fact to emerge from the poll has been this revelation today. “Comprehensive poll by respected national polling company completely submerged by Main Stream Media and BBC”. A very bright light has been shone on them, and they have scuttled back under their rock. You backed them into a corner, Rev (on a tactical scale similar to the devo-max question on the ballot paper) .. and rather than come out fighting, they pulled their shorts over their heads, put their fingers in their ears and went la, la, la! However, this is now in the public domain and easy for all to see. By not reporting it, they have just created a huge stick to beat themselves with, and should all be standing red-faced in the corner. As they see it, “it’s their ball, and they want it back”. As you say, Rev .. a date to remember.
If I was the brain behind No Scotland (A big assumption the brain, I know) the one lesson to learn from the Panelbase latest poll would be to keep away from criticising blogs.
How do you think Labour for Indy website got to be one of the names best known?
Aye! By the concerted attack on the MSM they have increased LfI awareness among the general public by a factor of “n”.
Bad publicity is still publicity.
Now, with reference to the SNP media ignoring the poll I can think only of blaming the holidays, but it could be too that Peter Murrell have had a bight fight in his hands, trying to bring the bulk of the elected members of the party to 21st century technology.
Please remember that by the time of the landslide win, the average age of the membership was 53.
Great work Stu, and the bizarre lack of response by the media only confirms the fact you have scored a major hit, so you should take that as a complement. The daft thing is that The Sunday Herald, after tempting me to buy for the last 6 months, has lost me for good this time by its refusal to run the story. I suspect there are a good few others in the same boat, so the SH has shot themselves in the foot by refusing to act in any way ethically over this and I wouldn’t be surprised to see a further decline in their sales as a result.
Btw, how long before Panelbase is leaned on by the Establishment to refuse further commissions from Wings? They must be spitting tacks at the cheek of this site to rain on their parade; lets do it again!
Being a political geek for the past 45yrs(Old geek) I bought all the newspapers to keep up with what was happening but that stopped when I discovered the Internet.At first I read all the on-line editions but then I realised they depend on a high number of hits to get advertising.
i must confess to visiting one site,The torygaff is must as I can’t do without the bile and hatred that old Cockers spews out,The man is a class act.
I visit a select few political sites now knowing if there is anything of interest there will be a link to it.Keep up the good work.
Media blackout? Who’d have guessed.
Why don’t we put the results up on a billboard, say in central Glasgow?
@Currywurst,
More of a personal matter between those concerned than a political issue, I would have thought. I’m mystified as to what it has to do with the topic at hand. Clearly your distaste for women who drink wine and have sex has got you rattled enough to be typing on the sabbath! Have a read at some poetry and calm down.
http://www.robertburns.org/works/93.shtml
@bunter
Yup, the Sunday Herald ignoring the poll is a major, bitter disappointment for me. Unless I find out that the Editor Richard Walker was/is on holiday and Gardham or one of his acolytes stood in for him, no more benefit-of-the-doubt support/purchasing by me.
based around our supposed “anonymity” (apparently not having noticed the bylines right at the top of every piece we publish).
That you’ve published this on a Sunday demonstrates that you’re not really a Reverend. As the title is false, then the name following it must also be false. It’s simple* logic. Who are you really? The Scottish people demand answers!
*’Retarded’
Betsy
Remind me not to joust with you?
Classic put down!
BIG smiley thingy
One other thing Stu – which I am sure has occurred to you. They may not want to publish your results but by God I’m certain they all now know who you are! They will now be doing their tabloid best to find any form of ‘dirt’ on you? I know you’re a Rev so I hope you have no usable skeletons in your cupboard? Special Branch will doubtless also be on your case!
I understand journalism and especially the BBC in Scotland is in a pretty bad state and morale amongst staff is poor. But what I don’t understand is why none of these badly treated staff are prepared to speak out (even anonymously). (Large BBC payoffs / gagging clauses?) Self preservation maybe, but surely some should see the writing on the wall and start making other plans. After the ref will be too late to speak out – now is the time to expose the management dictacts, selective reporting and bias – go on email the Rev!
@ Alex Grant
“Special Branch will doubtless also be on your case!”
What’s new? there likely on all our cases.
Rev,
re the ‘Freedom of the Press’ Orwell essay – that was written as a preface to Animal Farm, in 1945. The preface wasn’t published until 1972, in The Times Literary Supplement. We know that Orwell expected it to be included in the first edition because the pagination of the author’s proof allows space for it. Why it wasn’t published isn’t clear – there is no record of Orwell referring to the omission. It seems astonishing, but to date, no English edition of Animal Farm has been published as Orwell must have envisaged it – the closest was a Penguin (2000) edition, but it included the ‘preface’ as an appendix.
I wonder if some sort of graph could be put together measuring how much a Scottish independence poll is mentioned in the media in relation to it’s favourability to the No cause? As pointed out above, the fragrant Mrs Cockers is still citing a 3 month old Mori poll.
@Jiggsbro
Of course he’s a Reverend, we revere him and his good works. Or possibly he’s the Paul Revere of this insurgency spreading the truth to other residents of the benighted colony. Either way he’s revered.
And that’s you telt 🙂 and, judging by the readership, Scotland too.
Can you put all the results together in an easy to read document so we can copy and share…. the truth must out!!
Slightly OT but I thought yesterday, the comment by Michael Kelly re closing Holyrood down was a good representation of ‘Scottish Media’. Anyone with any curiosity should have been asking as Mr Kelly appears to have a free reign a) is that the official Labour view b) Will closing Holyrood down be discussed at Conference c) have you done any polling of your members to support this idea ? Can you imagine if a Tory especially a Tory representing an English Constituency had come on the Andrew Marr show and stated ultimately his dream scenario is to close Holyrood down ?
We are being so badly served by the so called media- Blair McDougall has free access to Huff Post one day the Scotsman the next to add nothing of value then the media claim the debate is poor ?
I find it quite frightening that a small group of people (the co -ordinators of Better Together ) and it would appear MOST journalists are happy to hold all the power in a nation by not allowing the people who live here a proper voice. What a power trip that must be.
I wouldn’t worry about Mrs Cochrane in the Times – another bitter and twisted unionist who presumably sits having breakfast with her nearest and dearest desperately trying to think up even more puerile attacks on Alex Salmond – it’s a kinda hatefest they do as a duo and apart from some trolling numpties I shouldn’t think the response from those commenting is full of affirmation.
It’s interesting to watch the parallel defensive rearguard action being fought by the ‘Scottish’ MSM – a) on behalf of the union/British establishment and b) against the new media represented by sites such as Wings. In both cases the MSM displays poverty of imagination, a lack of proper journalistic enquiry, and a basic absence of the courage to adapt to new circumstances.
As for the Sunday Herald – personally I was never convinced that a one-day-a-week sop to balance would compensate for six days of Gardham and Settle. The Sunday Herald’s ‘political editor’ (arf) is Tom Gordon, the man who went out of his way to sneer at the independence marchers last September, and who was an enthusiastic cheerleader for the bull around Labour for Independence last week.
Bin the Sunday Herald, just as you would any other MSM outlet. It deserves no more than that, as its craven actions today have amply demonstrated.
Ah well – never mind – the poll has been reported ad nauseam on Newsnetscotland – with the latest report concluding with, “Congratulations to Stu Campbell of Wings over Scotland for giving us some fascinating data to chew over.” And I’m sure that Alex Salmond would have consumed the data too as he chewed over his full English breakfast this morning.
Well it’s what I expected. One, the results of the poll do not fit the MSM agenda, two, you DO, rightly, criticise them constantly, and three Wings is now a much feared competitor and so they are not going to give you free publicity. The dead tree outfits are actually mortally afraid of all blogs because the online news sources are slowly killing off their circulation.
I was a bit disappointed to find that although the YES Campaign published an article about the survey it did not acknowledge its source in the body of the piece, referring to it only in a very tiny footnote at the end. And its heart didn’t seem to be in it nor in any of its tweets. Is it really working hard for Independence? I also checked a few other pro-Independence blogs and apart from “Scot goes Pop” and “Newsnet Scotland” I found no other reference to it. Finally it will be interesting to see if Prof Curtice publishes the results from the Wings’ survey in his blog. If he doesn’t he will have zero credibility.
There is an awful lot of jealousy out there.
As an SNP member I’m disapointed the Media Centre hasn’t mentioned it. I’ve sent an e-mail to ask why and wait with breath (bated even) for their response.
“oddly Ms Hjul doesn’t cite the most recent independence poll – which WAS conducted in July, by Panelbase – and which put the numbers far closer at 33 to 45. Which is curious, because that poll was commissioned by the Sunday Times.”
The headline figures were even closer than that, at Yes 37%, No 46%. They excluded anyone who is less than 8 out of 10 certain to vote, which is standard practice (the exact filter differs among pollsters – sometimes only people who are 10 out of 10 certain to vote are included, because those people supposedly correlate closely with actual voters).
I suspect that while the BT/pro-Unionist parties keep hearing what they want to hear, the more depressed they are likely to be when the referendum result comes in.
More and more, I’m hearing people say, “Well, we couldn’t do worse than Westminster…”
With respect Rev I cannot understand why you ,or anyone else on here is in the least surprised that the MSM ignored this fine poll.
One ,as said by others they do not wish to give any recognition to the internet blogs that are killing their business.
More importantly they are all in the No Camp and will only give the oxygen of publicity to any poll bad to the Yes cause.
Maybe next poll you should add one asking should Ally McCoist play 442 or 4 24 and you might get wall to wall coverage.
I quite frankly do not understand the astonishment from commentators / comments on this site as to why there is zero coverage of the PB survey.
Most folk do not seem to have grasped the fact that the anti-independence side will do nothing – I must repeat this – absolutely NOTHING which could seen in any way as neutral or as a positive sign for the pro-indepnedence argument. If anything is mentioned at all then only when it’s been scanned and manipulated into a negative form. Anyone who still believes that the quality or logic of the YES arguments will be broadcst by the BBC or published by the MSM needs to be gently lead away by friendly men in white coats.
I have the uttermost respect for many of the regular poster here on WOS, but, there is in reality no genuine debate going on. We have the moral superiority and the arguments but let’s be quite honest about it, Westminster, bitter together and any other NO lackey just don’t give a monkys toss about it. They’re either slinging everything at us including the coal-bucket or they’re keeping a 100% silence. Whatever fits into their srtategy.
The general strategy from the SNP, YES Scotland and all the indy websites is working – see the PB / WOS survey – but don’t ever think for one moment that you’ll get any help in any form from the beeb or MSM.
“John MacIntyre OBE says:”
Proof positive of the ability of viruses to spread.
Aye, the Sunday Herald can get tae fuck now. I’ve been paying for it online for the past few weeks because I found myself using it more and more, but that’s getting stopped ASAP.
There is no justification for ignoring this poll. If they didn’t want to mention the site, they could simply have referred to it as “the latest PanelBase poll”.
As for the Scottish Daily Mail’s suggested question, it reminds me of Malcolm Rifkind’s suggested “unbiased” version of the referendum question back last January. I like to think they *genuinely* think that’s an unbiased question.
Virii of his kind need the oxygen of publicity to survive.
Just starve him of his life support; ignore him.
He’ll wither away.
Oh I’d say they are more than just aware of this poll and its ramifications. In fact I’d go so far as to say it disturbed them considerably.
Precisely why none will cover it in depth. Sorry Rev, but I don’t think it is a surprise. If the poll had proven a disaster you can bet your house the results would have been in every title out there. Fact is it was a success and worse dropped a few lead balloons on the BT/media accepted script.
Rod Mac says
“they do not wish to give any recognition to the internet blogs that are killing their business.
More importantly they are all in the No Camp”
Thing is, apparently being in the NO camp IS killing their business. Also, business considerations aside ……… what happened, you know, to actually REPORTING THE NEWS!
(call me old-fashioned)
Good morning John
Nice to have you on the show.
Rev…
Do we have to suffer Mr OBE on Wings?
He is such a prick & makes The Herald comments btl unreadable.
Just a thought…. och, i know free speech and all that…..i know….shouldn’t have mentioned it….
Do we have to suffer Mr OBE on Wings?
I’m hoping that a progressive, independent Scotland will promote a more enlightened and tolerant attitude towards mental illness. This is as good a place as any to start.
Jiggsbro, coffee, keyboard, ach, you know the rest.
Certainly takes an odd person to be awarded an ‘order’ of something that was a gigantic failure – hence collapsed and now no longer exists – and wear the title with pride.
I completely agree with others above who feel that the MSM are ignoring this for two reasons:-
1/ The results are ‘wrong’ and do not support their message.
2/ The last thing they want to do is give any oxygen to WoS I guarantee that they would have crapped themselves when they found out that WoS and Newsnet are recognised by 8% of the population (that’s 400 000 people and is a very real number). Best just to ignore anything that WoS or Newsnet does or at the very most do a McDougal and just belittle these sites.
I too would be interested to know the unique visit numbers for the last week.
I have said it before and do so again – i would be up for tipping in substantial cash for billboard, underground or mailshot advertising promoting this site and building that readership number. Yes, it is obvious that WoS and NNS are pro-independence but at the same time the MSM are very evidently pro-union. WoS and NNS are providing a degree of balance by their existence.
Might be an idea though for the good Rev to not drop so many F-bombs and not tolerate similar language in comments if you want more credibility amongst the general public would be my one small ciriticism.
Just tried to post on the Heralds story regards Labour & lobbying Co and tried to sneak a comment regards a widely unreported Panelbase poll. Any bets whether it will be moderated oot of existance, and if no, how many votes it will get from us frustrated lot.
Call me a cynic if you like however nearer to Sept 2104 Rev it would not surprise me if you and NNS , NC, Munguins etc all start encountering technical difficulties with your site.
GCHQ has the technologies and the corrupt British State has interests to protect
I never liked newspapers anyway, it’s murder getting the newsprint aff yer bahookie! !
A media blackout of the poll is an indication that the Scottish media are a major part of the problem in this debate.
There have been rumours that some Scottish journalists are getting backhanders from Better Together in the promotion of unionist scare stories. Whether there is any truth to this I don’t know. If that is the case then the opposite could also be true, journalists being paid to ignore stories that are favourable to the Yes campaign.
I think a line was crossed in this campaign when BT doctored photographs were used as part of a very crude attempt to smear Labour for Independence, but an attempt that was so willingly taken up by the Scottish media. That smacks of collusion, a deeper and darker relationship.
So if journalists are more than willing to pay for information and bribe officials, another truism, then again the opposite must also be true. I think the Scottish media have deeply embarrassed and damaged by the LfI affair. The lack of scare stories since then has been remarkable. It is like BT and the MSM are taking stock of their position and working out what to do next.
It leads to an ugly conclusion that the Scottish media has been corrupted so thoroughly it cannot be in any way representative of Scotland.
The media in Scotland is our national shame.
Can we not get someone well known to illustrate the bullet points on youtube?
Elaine C Smith would be a good choice as she resonates with well with women and a lot of people across Scotland,particularly Glasgow.
Tinyzeitgeist says:
11 August, 2013 at 11:22 am
It may upset the MSM even more if we were to suggest that another similar ‘people powered’ poll would be conducted in say three to six months time? I would most certainly make a second contribution for another poll, if for no other reason that it appears to have blindsided the propaganda shamen in the Scottish press. So lets do it again.
Great idea Tiny, I’m up for a few more bob if the Rev’s up for the stress of organising etc.
@JMobe
“Congratulations to Stu Campbell of Wings over Scotland for giving us some fascinating data to chew over”
I fully agree, the data in the tables is very revealing – I think that the Yes Scotland supporters will be able to reference this information for a couple of months easily 😉
There’s something really powerful about information you have to find for yourself. By not covering this story and the inevitable truth that will come out, MSM & BT have guaranteed this poll will hit voters like a sledgehammer. Today is the day that an already ailing MSM writes its suicide note.
OBE is an occasional poster here and isn’t banned unlike most of us on Better Together sites. I know which of those positions occupies the moral high ground.
“Do we have to suffer Mr OBE on Wings?”
The man is a self-obsessed, deranged, bored, egotistical pensioner with an Alex Salmond fixation and with little or nothing else in his life.
I think we should hear more from him on a forum where his idiocies are not protected by moderators who feel sympathy for his blatherings.
Some fraternal criticism from a committed Yes campaigner:
The media will never report badly-designed, over-complex surveys which yield uninteresting results, presented badly. Why should they?
I’m afraid you got this one utterly wrong.
John Macintyre OBE at 12;14 pm
Crikey! Is Obi Kanobe a real person? I thought it was a name given to a spam machine used by ‘the Herald’ to automatically post the most unadulterated rubbish you could imagine about Independence … oh, and including insults about Alex the Man. If it’s real maybe he has been dumped by the Herald as a BTL commentor because people are now laughing at him over there. Could he also be Jezerny or whatever, the Herald’s pet troll from the Balkans? They do sound very much alike.
Why bother what a troll might say or do online-the poll results show that the views of the shifty droning scotsman efforts have no influence, they are talking utter shite and that won’t change until the rag folds.
I think it’s a shame that the NNS coverage of the WoS poll data contains a crashing error.
There was, however, no option for respondents to answer that they couldn’t remember who they had voted for in 2010, or that they had no clue as to what policy such a party might have! The only choice for those beset by doubt on the question was “I don’t currently know how I plan to vote in the referendum”.
As to the first point, since the respondents were asked to state which party they voted for in 2010 in a separate question, I imagine that was taken care of somehow. However, the error is the bolded part.
It is not possible for any of the respondents to have no clue what stance the party they voted for in 2010 espouses. This information was provided for them at the end of the question. It was the first thing that struck me when I read that response on WoS, but I read to the end and found the information. “i.e. SNP/Green/SSP Yes, Labour/Conservative/LibDem No.”
So the big caveat NNS highlights, exclamation mark and all, is completely invalid. And no chance of posting a comment to point this out, because we’re all banned or on permanent pre-moderation, and anyway they practically never allow comments pointing out errors in their articles to be published.
(James made the same mistake at Scot Goes Pop, but James allows comments so it was easy to correct. James also engages in discussion and promptly did so, pleasantly and constructively.)
Do we have to suffer Mr OBE on Wings?”
I welcome comments from him if only to use as
a tool to check my sanity.
@ Geoff Huijer
‘I welcome comments from him if only to use as
a tool to check my sanity.’
Bit unfair on the uses of OBE, he’s a multi-tool.
Hey, guys, I know you all know that holding your breath is “bated” breath, but can we be clear that the things you use to steer a horse are “reins”? If I see “reigns” once more, I may do my computer screen an injury.
And yes, that applies to “reined in” and “the reins of power” and so on as well. Though not, obviously, to “reign of terror”.
over the past few days I’ve managed to mention the Panelbase polls just released and mentioned the latest Panelbase poll from an independence supporting blog.
However I know that if I mention ‘Wings’ I wont only have that comment blocked I will be blocked altogether.
This is why they are ignoring this poll, they are terrified of Wings, and this is why our next group fund must be about publicising wings to a much wider audience.
We send them a message, every time you ignore us, we will put an advert out that makes us grow.
Does the phrase “go independent” bother anyone else? Surely it should be “become independent”, or is my english worse than even MSM journalists these days?
It’s a niggle, I’ll grant you that. Just a relatively small one in the context of the rest of the stuff they do.
This is why they are ignoring this poll, they are terrified of Wings, and this is why our next group fund must be about publicising wings to a much wider audience.
How much does an advert on STV cost?
The thing is, SS, it’s not just the cost of airing the advert, it’s the cost of making it, to decent production standards. I’m not sure it’s within our means.
A sad day indeed. The Scottish media that could have covered this and chose not to should hang their heads in shame.
Well, that’s made my mind up for me. Independence March & Rally, Edinburgh, September 21st. I’m gonna be there, and so should anyone else here who can make it!!
Lack of MSM coverage is disappointing but I wonder if that’s in part due to the way the results have been delivered to them. It should be apparent by now that most newspaper coverage in Scotland is simply a reprint of press releases, with virtually no investigative work to explore their veracity.
Were the key messages arising from the poll summarised in a press release and sent to the right people, either by WoS or Panelbase? Maybe they need to be given what they’re used to, since they lack either the initiative or resources to pull together the story from other online content. I’m not excusing them, just suggesting it’s best to make it as easy as possible for them to cover the story. If one covers it, the rest may well follow. A little bit of press liaison could be used to line up exclusive coverage next time, to get the ball rolling. Any site users with necessary skills and experience?
The thing is, SS, it’s not just the cost of airing the advert, it’s the cost of making it, to decent production standards. I’m not sure it’s within our means.
What about those folks that did ‘A parting Hymn’, the ‘myths debunked’ and ‘Precious few heros‘ videos on Youtube.
Stu- you should have a look at the Vote No to Independence Facebook Page’s response to your recent polls. Typical of them to attack things that don’t support them, whilst supporting the same polling system when it puts them in the lead. Bloody ridiculous.
Anyway, I was wondering if anyone would be interested in taking part in a single or series (haven’t decided yet) of online debates about Independence, and the top issues that still haven’t been addressed. There would be a neutral host and moderators for both sides, and at least 3 debaters each. I could get this to work, with the right amount of cross-promotion from both sides of the debate, so please let me know what you think about it, any further suggestions, or whether you’d be interested in taking part.
Thanks
“It’s a niggle, I’ll grant you that.”
Ok….I’ll bite.
I hate “Loose” when people mean “Lose” 😀
Ignore John Macintyre OBE – he doesn’t believe in democracy unless it’s the old fashioned do as you are told imperialism. That’s how you get wee bits of tin!
When I said “niggle”, I was referring to the “go independent” quibble in the preceding post.
But yes, loose for lose does my head in too. As does lead for led.
I think the reign for rein thing started with “free rein”, which is of course what you do when you give a horse its head and let it choose the direction and the pace of travel.
Congrats to WOS. I love you more by the minute.
I hope you will publish the full poll findings in one chunk that is easily downloadable so that your supporters can spread the word throughout the internet, as previously suggested by a contributor. Indeed, I’m sure highlights from the poll will appear in leaflets all over the country in due course.
The MSM should be ashamed of themselves (although I’ve always thought that anyway when it comes to their coverage of self-determination) however, I dont quite get why some people are surprised that the SNP hasn’t covered the poll on its website! The SNP site is not a news site and doubtless it will highlight some of the polls findings in print and verbally in the days, weeks and months ahead. It always does. The MSM are newsgatherers and they have no excuse other than prejudice.
I’m glad that that followers of WOS and NNS are increasing in number. Both are excellent sites and for me, they have become the most reliable news outlets in the country.
My own new non-news site has a much visited “links” page on which both take pride of place (that my links page is one of the most popular should worry me but it doesnt!). It is simply a run of the mill site that people stumble across and hopefully take something from. I dont believe it is even listed yet. For those who would like a look, visit. http://www.studentreferendum.com
Suggestions welome.
I will now give WOS and NNS greater prominence. I also hope people will regularly share your site on all the social media channels as I will be doing on at least a weekly basis.
Keep up the good work. You are making a great difference.
Keep the faith Stuart – I am 100% behind you as I am sure the majority on here are – although I realise not all.
I too stopped buying newspapers around 15 years ago as I realised they only print what they want you to know.
The comment from Craig M who I believe knows more about the establishment than most – if he is who I think he is – then I have read his book and as he says, “keep up the excellent work”
Hardly surprising that the MSM ignores the Rev on this story, as he happily ignores the MSM headlines today.
BBC News Scotland – What the Papers Say: A Scots teen being held in Peru on a drugs bust; Ally McCoist is willing to take a pay cut; Cigarettes being banished to the back room in airport duty free shops in a “move which could significantly cut airport revenues”; psychic June Field played a vital role in catching a crazed serial killer.
I wonder why the public feels so poorly informed.
This is being suppressed for all the same reasons that the McCrone Report was withheld. Something very big has been done here, larger than we perhaps yet realise, and is a harbinger of what we have to do in the months to come. As was discussed on threads yesterday this will be won by our cumulative efforts on our streets in our cities. And, yes, I think the Establishment are angry at being so readily exposed for the manipulators that they are.
Robert says:
“I think we should hear more from him on a forum where his idiocies are not protected by moderators who feel sympathy for his blatherings.”
OK … you have convinced me.
So this poll now has three elements: its newsworthy source and funding, its newsworthy results, and the complete silence of a mainstream media whose function is to report what is newsworthy. I think, in total, this a significant story in itself and – as others have suggested – foreign media such as Russia Today might cover it. RT does broadcast in Scotland/UK.
This article has been posted on the ‘Yes to an Independent Scotland’ FB page, which has over 34000 likes. That should help it reach a few more people.
It saddens me that our media has ignored a publicly-funded poll, but it just makes me more determined to go out helping Yes Scotland to win this referendum.
And there you have the Scottish MSM in a nutshell. Any thought given that they will be fair or for turning the independence debate into a more level playing field is utter fantasy. Stu, you have inadvertently exposed their stance and that won’t change. Their silence is indeed deafening, and we know the reason, the press is Unionist! End of! Any MSM ridicule of Better Together can be put down to ‘guidelines’ for BT. In other words the MSM are trying to guide BT away from traps or stupidity by exposing them now, so they can learn from their mistakes and will be better equipped to feed the MSM when they are given blanket coverage during the ‘official’ 16-week campaign next year. Of course it still remains to be seen if BT can learn from their mistakes aided by the MSM.
The only decent pro-independence exposure will be made by freelance individuals from two or three newspapers, but they work for pro-union publications. For every seemingly pro-independent argument you will get half-a-dozen pro-union ones. This silence has exposed the MSM for trying to keep their readership ignorant, distracted by FITBAAAA or MURRRDER.
There will be much analysing to see how far internet sites such as Wings, NNS, LFI, Bella and NC penetrate into the Scottish electorate, if those results are not liked by the British State then there could be ‘a reaction’ to them. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a whole load of new polls commissioned shortly for the front pages, to ensure that the Wings/Panelbase polls will be buried. But this should be a wake up call to everyone who supports independence to see how much of Scotland is actually anti-Scotland.
“Call me a cynic”
Not a cynic. Paranoiac perhaps.
I hate being right all the time.
http://wingsoverscotland.com/we-did-a-thing/#comment-461731
Dcanmore, I don’t think it was inadvertent.
@Rev
The lack of coverage by Yes doesn’t really surprise me. I was at a Yes Scotland Digital Ambassador event recently and someone in the audience mentioned that credit should be given to you for the great job you’re doing.
The speaker didn’t seem to like this. I can’t remember what he said but it seemed like they thought you were some sort of loose cannon that was alienating Labour supporters.
Maybe some other readers could clarify what was said?
Lianachan, it was the smart way to bet, let’s face it.
Look it wouldn’t have mattered what questions were asked, if the poll was going to favor a YES vote then No way was it going to be given any prominence by the media.
As for the SNP site, they may have been waiting to anylise all the data before commenting at a time they think appropriate, maybe tomorrow, we will see.
However this is not a wasted exercise, firstly we have the information, we know the truth and so do the opposition, we have to find other ways of using it, like directly with members of the public, it’s the way the YES campaign has been working so far and it seems to be producing results, we need to challenge the opposition and the public by continually asking why the NO lot are SCARED to mention our poll and hope that members of the public will start to ask what we are on about, (everybody loves a mystery), we can mump and moan about this or do what we have done in the past, learn from it.
The opposition are trying to kill this because they are scared of the truth, if we keep working that truth will not change, it will only get stronger, we should be encouraged!
BTW, Could some one remind me if I am correct in remembering that Westminster has the power to close Holyrood down, if it thinks it is exceeding it’s authority?
I ask because if I’m right, a future question could be along the lines of, Should the right to close Holyrood down be removed from Westminster and reserved to the Scottish people?
I don’t think even the media could ignore that and given that the answer will most likely be yes, Westminster would hate it.
Heads up there’s along way to go!
I quite like John M OBE on our site. It reminds me of the circus with all the jugglers, tight-rope walkers, animal shows etc and then in between the comic comes on to make us all laugh ….. OBE!!
Don,t worry, the Daily Mail can be relied upon for Scottish coverage.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2389234/One-Scottish-people-think-jam-day-despite-containing-thirds-sugar.html
As has been said, the establishment own the media so will always publish their agenda. When you take that and the fact that “independence” involves having the Bank of England which is controlled by international bankers and having a foreigner as head of state into account, the whole thing is a farce. About as independent as a five year old.
Well Rev, you’ve definitely upset the BritNat natives and they simply don’t know what to do about it, hence the silent treatment and three things stick out for me;
First, the purpose of the panelbase poll was to get responses to your questions, specific questions nobody else was asking. We got the answers and they are shocking for many of the playmakers. They also confirm what many of us already thought, so it was a successful project. The facts are undeniable. Bloody excellent!
Second, you’ve exposed the con perpetrated by the MSM and show up its incestuous links with the BBC in this news blackout. This actually proves the broadcasting and news corruption that’s endemic in this country and woe betide them, it testifies the BBC and MSM’s public credibility is at rock bottom and worsening. Recovery, it seems, will be spectacularly doubtful. Woooops, crash-dive!!
Third, given their reaction to this, if you make it known that a second poll will be commissioned it will cause absolute panic and boy, won’t that be fun!! Let me know when you need funds. The bells are rinnnggging!!
Fantastic effort Rev.
If we vote Yes, it isn’t a vote for Alex Salmond or SNP it’s a vote for the future of our country. Once independence is in place there would be an election where we would vote for whichever political party. This must be made clear! I’m fed up hearing people say they won’t vote SNP. Look further than the end of your nose!
Do we have to suffer Mr OBE on Wings?
He is such a prick & makes The Herald comments btl unreadable.
That is his sole intention and job – issue pointless ridicule to make btl debate unreadable.
Stifle conversation and fain wounded pride – mr obe is a paid for better together mole.
Also proof positive, by virtue of the fact he’s commented here today, that BT & the unionist MSM are rattled by the Rev/ and a People funded Panelbase survey.
They are full time wondering how to close down these survey results and conversation created… that line of thought is a massive mistake. But as they say, ‘why interrupt your enemy while they are making a mistake’.
Jeez Morag, your sounding a bit sharp today! I’m not at all pikky about spelling in phact i like fonetics.
I’m waiting to learn of your next move Rev. You’ve singed McDougal, sent MSM and the BBC into hiding.
What’s next?
Just had Better Together leafleters banging on my door, (Barnhill area Dundee). Sent them off with a flea in their ear!
Commissioning this poll was in no way a wasted exercise. It’s proved immeasurably valuable in exposing the (lack of) reaction from the MSM; in confirming (for those who still required confirmation) that the MSM constitutes 99% of the No Scotland campaign; and in demonstrating what can be done when you circumvent the chancers and hypocrites who’ve appointed themselves arbiters of our thoughts.
I support the calls for another poll after the White Paper and will happily contribute.
This is more than churnalism, this is collusion between between elements of the Scottish media and the unionist establishment – the LfI smear proved that.
How deep and dark is this collusion? We definitely have a BT rat-pack of journalists that readily come to mind. Also history has shown how journalism has come to the aid of the British government in changing public opinion. The miners strike with the smear campaign conducted against the NUM and the Iraq war with the publication of the dodgy dossier highlights how important it is to have the media on your side.
One important element in both the miners strike and the Iraq war was the role of the police and the security services. We know that MI5 had set up a section to monitor the miners strike and infiltrate the NUM. We know that the police were given a free hand to break the strike. The security services were also party to the publication of the dodgy dossier.
I think people can give into conspiracy theories with too easily, but the outcome of this referendum presents a real and present threat to the British state. So it is well within the realms of possibility that the security services are very much a real part of the NO campaign and will have infiltrated both the Yes campaign and the Scottish government.
We know that Alistair Darling has regular meetings with both George Osborne and David Cameron in Downing Street. So again, as with other important matters of state, there will be regular assessments provided by the security services that will act a backdrop to these discussions.
Would we be surprised if that there is a dark side to all this scaremongering and smears featured in the media? Given what we know about recent history, we would not notbe surprised at all.
I think it’s also clear why Yes & SNP are not responding wholeheartedly. They are the Independence establishment (not meant in an especially bad way), and are focused on the whole campaign between now and 2014, and it’s necessary that they maintain good relations with the MSM, meanwhile keeping the heid and watching BT increasingly frothing at the mouth, trusting the Scottish public to remain undeluded. And everything in the poll data suggests this is working.
They may not be saying much, but they will be quietly smiling, especially since the data probably confirm what their own polling is showing. And while they may not wish to embrace WoS to their collective bosums, you can bet they will be aware of the value of what happens here.
Morag – Neigh bother I here watt youre saying 🙂
Sandy- So what you are saying is we are wasting our time? You sound like someone with a britnat mentality to be honest. Keep our eyes on the prize, all the rest is a distraction don’t you know.
Well I suppose it was to be expected, but Im still seething. I have posted it on my FB page, with the followin comment” The Scottish Media’s day of shame. With circulations in freefall, are they content to watch their papers die?” Hopefully with close on 1000 ‘friends’ the word will spread.
BTW Stu, did you send it to poiitica academicsl at universities? I know at least two department heads who would use the data.
@Craig M
The MSM is the Establishment. The Establishment believes it has an absolute devine right to control and to set the agenda, which includes what society reads in newspapers. Rev, you are not the Establishment (a fact that you should be proud of). In their eyes you have committed a great wrong. You have circumvented the usual channels and effectively cut them out from the loop. They will not like that. You can expect some hefty attacks on you in the coming weeks, so be prepared. If you have some skeletons gathering dust in the odd closet, they will be trying to find them.
I think what needs to be understood is that the UK is not really a democracy. I would define it as a “Controlled Democracy” where the process of making a decision, at the level of the electorate, is carefully manipulated through, for instance, the MSM. We read what they want us to read, we watch and listen to what they want us to see and hear. That includes the use of polling. The ability to exhibit freedom of thought and action is their worst nightmare. By carrying out this poll and publishing the results in the uncontrolled and free space of the internet, WOS has gone beyond the pale in the eyes of the MSM. It also compounds what everyone already knows; that the paper press is very quickly dying a death. Anyone can now be the “press.” You have proved it. An example has been set. New media has come of age and the potential of that power, from the viewpoint of the MSM, must be a very scary prospect indeed.
WOS has effectively kicked sand in the face of the Establishment. The Westminster beast will not like it and you can be sure that the propaganda arm of the Establishment, that we call the MSM, will be chewing over the implications of your actions. You have underminded their control, you have added fuel to the commercial meltdown that the paper press is suffering. Power to your keyboard and keep up the excellent work.
I agree with Craig M’s post. The political machinations of the MSM in Scotland in the last few years have been blatant. Even before this episode with the poll, there was the press coverage of the week before the Council elections last year, where there was a sustained anti-Salmond campaign. Then there was the complete lack of coverage given to Cameron’s EU speech at the start of the year. The ramifications of this for the referendum on independence were completely ignored.
Then there was the smear campaign against Labour for Independence. The MSM obviously fear the impact they have made. Now we see them completely ignoring this poll and its findings. I said in a post a wee while ago that all sections of the independence movement will be attacked by the MSM in Scotland. This is because of the No campaign’s complete reliance on negativity, lack of vision for the future of Scotland, and their hatred of independence. The MSM in Scotland have become like Pravada in the Soviet Union. Their enduring and vociferous oppostion to independence must surely be obvious to growing numbers of the Scottish electorate.
the photo with this article reminds me of the band of laughing clapping msps that cheer every sentence johan lamont speaks during first ministers questions l Cannot see what there is too laugh at when the rhetoric she uses is nasty, poorly sarcastic and offensively unfunny. I wonder if those slab msps realise exactly how they look to ordinary people .
I wonder how much it costs to run an advert in a newspaper? You know, like one saying “Poll results from latest PanelBase poll (brought to you by Wingsoverscotland.com)?
James,
Quick off topic but great job on your site mate, very informative and accessible will share the link when I can.
On topic, my default position now is I dont do newspapers due to cognitive bias and edititorial interference, I’ll look at their sources (if they have any) but not the spin.
Let me start by saying thank you and I’m delighted with the work that has been carried out. I will now use the stats that have been highlighted in every way I can.
The Yes campaign have consistently been on the back foot having to respond to unionist lies and scaremongering, this time however, we have consistent documented evidence that proves that all is not as it has previously been reported and the unionist main stream media are in fact playing a dangerous game.
The Yes campaign should now take the initiative here and have the no campaign on the back foot and needing to respond to this, We wont have many better chances than this. Blair Jenkins should be jumping all over this and if not, why not? There can be fewer things as important sitting on his desk.
The one criticism that I agree with (and forgive me for that) is that the referendum question wasn’t asked. I understand that it was avoided because other polls had asked it before, however, perhaps the demographic used on Wings poll wouldn’t be quite so loaded and therefore, being more balanced would have returned a different, better result. Also to give a more relevant weight to the polls findings perhaps a larger sample should be taken on this question. Or we could ignore the upper bands all together which we know that minority population will tend to skew the vote away from a yes vote and explain this in the report on the findings. Then a simple graphic could show how much of the population of Scotland are contained in each band. By doing this we’d have a much better story to tell.
Just sayin’ and many thanks again.
Kindest regards,
David Milligan Lvss
What about Michael Moore (the AmericaWhat he always seems up for a fight. I’d have thought this was all right up his street.
The clear inference from the MSM silence on this is that things are going our way. I think a few of us recently were wondering why there weren’t many polls expounding the majority in favour of NO – cos I’m sure if there were we would be hearing all about it! I think the MSM tactic will be to only report on polls which confirm the current gap between Yes and No, to suggest that there has been (and never will be) any movement in the votes. We know different!!
I will not be viewing any of the newspaper sites AT ALL from now on – I wish everyone would abandon the comments page to the half-dozen unionists to argue amongst themselves. If they want a debate they can come here where the people are!
Bit of over-reaction here I think. No newspaper is obliged to carry any opinion poll and we have no idea what editorial instruction has been given on this.
I’m surprised the Sunday Herald has been allowed to plough its furrow recently as I doubt very much if its US proprietor agrees with it. There are a number of very good letters in it today and Bell and Macwhirter are good as usual.
No need yet for the massive huff
The major impact of the panelbase poll will be on NO campaigners. The honest truth of the matter- and that’s an unfamiliar concept nowadays – is that these polled opinions represent the feedback from ordinary Joe MacBloggs and they are quite devastatingly pointed against everything the BT campaign seeks to further.
How they try to counter the effects will just expose them as spoilers even more to the ‘don’t knows’. It has all the looks of a cul-de-sac situation.
Strangely, one concern is the lack of supporting comment from other pro-independent sites and apart from the unwelcome thought that it’s based on some kind of petty envy, which would be a pity, it’s probably nearer the truth that even they have been totally shocked by the findings.
“I don’t think it was inadvertent”
Ye’re oan a role the day, Morag. 😉
The poll had one very useful conclusion for me and that was that Project ‘Fear and Smear’ stories from the Bitter people and their acolytes in the media are having little effect on the voting intentions of people vav Independence, and that targetting Alex S and the SNP with vile and bile is not working (and Morag I know vile is not a noun). It also tends to suggest that the YES Campaign’s and the SNP’s approach of playing the ‘nice guys’ is being effective so far. I was wrong in thinking that some of the mud being slung at AS et al would be sticking.
However I would still like to see a bit more meat on the bone in the YES campaign, a bit more assertion, and I’m hoping that that will come later. The White Paper will be relentlessy attacked after its publication and I hope both YES and the SNP are fully geared up to meet fire with fire when these attacks start.
No great shock as others have said that the msm has not covered the Panel Base survey/poll but the very fact that there is an absolute silence from them is no mean feat Stu. I mean the very fact that youve managed to shut them up completely on this tells us that they cant spin it. However the truth is staring them in the face. I managed to send a link to this article to RT. I find that with the interest they have in covering our referendum to date and that they are aware of our concerns about bias, i think it essential that the more evidence we present to news organisations like this the more our case builds as opposed to a once in a blue moon squeal.
Post independence i suspect the levels of coercion and complicitness from the msm and the British Establishment against our struggle for independence will all come out in the wash. i suspect it will make riveting reading for future generations, but we in this generation must defeat them. I get the feeling that they dont like us taking the reins in this fight for our countrys’ future instead of being good little muppets and swallowing all their drivel. Hope this is the shape of things to come with us being pro active to enable us to reach as many of the rest of our population as possible. That is what matters. The msm can go to hell.
Barontorc,
“Strangely, one concern is the lack of supporting comment from other pro-independent sites and apart from the unwelcome thought that it’s based on some kind of petty envy, which would be a pity, it’s probably nearer the truth that even they have been totally shocked by the findings.”
Not a cluck from the clique? ‘Intellectual’ cowardice? (Thanks for the link, Ian)
I see, too, that a mean-spirited, wing-clipped crow has suggested ‘financial irregularities’ on Twitter. With ‘friends’ like these who needs enemies?
Get organised & March against media !!!!!!!!!!! (GLASGOW & EDINBURGH)
Its the only way to get noticed – TAKE TO THE STREETS
PS : Yesterdays Gerry Hassan article in the Britman was pretty good
(found copy on the train – honest)
Muir of Ord last night – Runrig 40th – wore my WoS “a hundred of us remain alive” shirt – stopped about 2 dozen times by folk who know this site both foreign & domestic – the message is clearly getting out. Others intend buying the same shirt. As they say in Napoli “piano piano…”
Couple of points to make but will try and not just restate what has been said.
Firstly Stuart you must be disappointed by the MSM reaction to the poll, we all are. Together, those of us who read Wings probably suspected this could be so, especially when much of the evidence from the poll points to a weak and inadequate press. They were hardly likely to report on knocking copy or credit an on-line news source. The poll was radically different from any I had seen before and the questions were fresh and original in an effort to get under the skin of the campaign – which was great.
The lack of response from the State Broadcaster is even more worrying especially after the teasing interventions from Mr. Cook on your Twitter feed.
Secondly and this is more important the results are very very heartening to the YES cause and we all owe you a debt of gratitude for doing the spadework. Please do not allow this reverse to affect your morale because we are all 100% behind what Wings stands for. The Bitter boys cannot slag off the lack of MSM response because as has been pointed out this will draw attention to a poll which has several lethal messages for them.
Thirdly I along with others am genuinely at a loss to understand the lack of interest within the within the YES community – this needs to be investigated.
It shows that we are making progress and are stronger than we are told we are – that is enough to give us more cause for hope during YES canvassing and leafleting.
Where do we go from here
1. I agree with Scotchwoman above. Essentially she is I think seeking to argue that any future polling must be done with the MSM in mind.
(a) The questions should maybe be shorter and the results YES /No and DK
(b) You need help from YES Scotland to get some kind of really sexy charting software so that findings can be presented in a “user friendly” way for lazy MSM journalists. Say what you like about the Daily Mail but when presenting statistics their graphics are fantastic and catch the eye.
(c) I understand your reasoning for not asking “the question”, Stuart but I think future polls have to – again making it harder for the MSM to ignore.
2. The State broadcaster is another matter and I know some have suggested beaming Project Fear logos Batman style onto Pacific Quay. We need something original, short of a campaign of non payment of the license fee!! The last BARD demonstration in May was in a thunderstorm with only 100 turning up – maybe we need to think of some kind of mass effort on these lines with hopefully better weather.
Aye – who’d a thunk a ‘wee blog’ could crowd source funds for a Panel Base Poll and keep the main man in a full time job. (not to mention silence the media with a stroke of his er…keyboard!)
Too many green/swivel eyed (space?)monsters out there both sides of the debate -more power to you Rev. Stu, your keyboard, quick wit, alert eye and the skills to put it altogether.
Speaking of quick wit – anyone see the Major recently?
The only way to affect BBC coverage is to bring the streets around BBC in London to a standstill. BBC Scotland is hardly likely to broadcast demonstrations against BBC Scotland in Glasgow (unless they were violent or vandalistic)
That the MSM is choosing to ignore this, should NOT come as a shock, for the many reasons others have stated above. However, the fact that personal criticisms are levelled at the site or REV himself, are indicative of the impact the site has had.
Now, as for those supposedly on the YES side, opening up criticism of finances of WOS etc.., I am not surprised. Make no mistake, there will be those who supposedly support independence, wilfully trying to sew division and dissent amongst the YES campaign. It is a classic BritNAT strategy. Do not be surprised by such things, but also do not let them distract us. Such attacks are designed to unsteady people, and make them fight amongst themselves. They MUST be ignored. Be ready for it, and recognise it here and elsewhere when it happens.
Their is little point arguing with such people.
Finally, the questions some people have raised over coverage of the poll by ‘YES’ websites. To my knowledge there has been pretty extensive coverage of the poll findings on newsnet Scotland, via two separate articles – NNS always takes it’s time with articles, so no surprises it did in this case. As for the official YES site, they have covered some aspects, so not sure why they are being criticised. Some other sites, such as Bella, have previously indicated they are running at a low level over the summer, whilst the folks go on holiday etc..
Let’s try and avoid criticising other pro indy sites, they all have different styles and priorities – and YES, that means they might not always agree with Rev stu. It really doesn’t matter. We need to keep focused on the prize of independence, and ignore the supposedly pro-indy ‘agents provocateurs’.
OT
Did Margo McD ever get a response to her letter about ensuring that GCHQ and other Funnies are not monitoring the SNP e-mails and passing information directly to the No campaign or some other third party?
BtP
“Some fraternal criticism from a committed Yes campaigner:”
Yeah, sure you are.
If the question I suggested got the response I expect, they couldn’t ignore it.
“No newspaper is obliged to carry any opinion poll”
They are, however, supposed to report news, and in all normal circumstances that includes the release of a poll from a reputable organisation. And goodness knows it’s not like it was pushed off by other big stories today.
I’m not sure what you’re classing as an “over-reaction”, exactly. We’ve pointed out the mass silence and the circumstances around it and criticised it. Nobody’s been firebombed or anything.
“Might be an idea though for the good Rev to not drop so many F-bombs and not tolerate similar language in comments”
That’s a surprising comment. I doubt I’ve even reached double figures in well over 4000 personal comments, and there are really very few from readers either. I agree with your basic principle, and have said a thousand times that people should comment in the awareness that undecided voters are reading and unlikely to be won over by abuse and swearing and juvenile name-calling, but I just don’t think it’s an actual problem at the moment.
I also think it’s a bit daft to bemoan the fact that THE QUESTION wasn’t asked. It was asked a week previously, and got something like 36 Yes, 45 No, 19 DK. More importantly, it WAS asked, just in a slightly disguised form, and came up with 34 Yes, 36 No, 30 DK. That is a far more interesting result, because it suggests that asking the straight question and wording it as “how would you vote if the referendum was tomorrow?” is pushing far more of the don’t know’s to No than to Yes.
I sort of wonder what would have happened if “a Yes vote in the referendum” had been added to the list of possible things that would damage Scotland (along with a Westminster Tory government and space monsters), but it was probably wise to omit it. Rods for backs and so on.
“The headline figures were even closer than that, at Yes 37%, No 46%. “
I had a nagging feeling that was wrong as I wrote it, but I was rushing out and only had time to check the first page of the tables. Will correct.
I’m not sure how much this would cost, but why not try to take out adverts with some of these papers with the headline 18% statistic, and a link to to this website to “find out more”.
If they refuse the advert then the case is proved as regards bias and/or collusion and it doesn’t even cost any money.
If they publish the adverts then you get more traffic. You might be able to do the URL in such a way as to count the new visitors.
Win/win.
@bunter @Doug Daniel
Re the Sunday Herald. Editor Richard Walker has been on holiday the past 2 weeks, be interesting to know who stood in for him – Tom LFI Gordon?
.inconveniently, yes – I am. I genuinely want. an independent Scotland. Please, please learn to distinguish between good and poor arguments.
Fraternally.
F
Re lack of response from Yes camp – my feeling is that they will be paying close attention but…..keeping their hand hidden. They know it’s the middle of summer, that folk are distracted; enjoying the unusually good weather and just glad to be hearing little about politics and politicians. Why waste such good info as has come out of Stu’s poll when folk aren’t listening? I think that come September with the launch of the white paper and the rally for indy, the whole thing will go up a level and I have no doubt Stu’s excellent work will be part of the bedrock on which the case will be made.
“Fraternally.
F”
“David” doesn’t start with an F, fella.
FFSake
“David doesn’t start with an F, fella“.
No, but FUD does.
I type badly on a phone…therefore you win. 🙂
At the end of the day, I remain pro-independence, I agree the msm is biased – but in this case the argument is poor. And @you should seriously worry about the level of discussion here.
Fraternally.
Can I tactfully ask (please don’t shoot me!)
When the results were completed, was there a Press Release issued with the story and pertinent points and information from the poll sent to every News gathering outlets?
Journalist’s are inherently a lazy lot and like to have news handed to them on a plate
Press Releases should have been sent to the relevant political editors of Reuters, AP, AFP, then BBC News London, BBC Scotland, ITV News, STV News. Then the Scottish Newspapers. In addition e-mails with the press releases should have been sent to the SNP, Green Party, STUC, Yes Scotland asking for comment on the results pointing out that their comments would be published online.
This may have been done, so apologies
But I have the impression that you were relying on all outlets and groups firing up their PC’s and looking for it themselves
Stu was actively tweeting about it to a wide range of journalists as the results were released. I don’t know if that is an accepted substitute for a press release these days, but they certainly weren’t unaware of the poll.
Sadly the attacks that we have seen on the Rev today is only a foretaste of what is to come , up until now project fear and the m.s.m have worked on the assumption that if you ignore him he will go away but the Rev’s poll has changed all that .
Project fear and their allies in the m.s.m have thrown everything but the kitchen sink at A.S and the YES campaign but much to their horror nothing they are doing is working and the Rev’s polls have just reinforced this view .
We all know who our enemies are in the media and project fear but unfortunately the ones we need to worry about are the ones within .
Others on this site have went on about the wet nats but to my mind there are 2 types of wet nats , the first ones are obvious because they are the jealous ones , the ones who hate the fact that the Rev runs a good site where the people who frequent it are willing to dig deep into their pockets to help fund wings and any campaign that the Rev can dream up .
The 2nd type are the more dangerous , as they are the sleepers , the infiltrators or black ops , they will pretend to be friends but behind the scenes they are working to destroy everything we believe in .
I would ask the people who last night were talking about flashmobs etc to be very wary of the enemy within and to think about the effect that it might have on the Rev and wings .
I am not asking you not to do theses things as I was getting carried away with your enthusiasm but in the cold light of day I started to worry about how our enemies might use this against the Rev and wings .
Sorry if I have went O/T and maybe brought a damper to things , it is just that I think the Rev & Wings are to important to the independence campaign to give our enemies ammunition to use against him .
I was worried about the flashmob thing last night at the time. Even if all goes well, it’s something that can easily be negatively spun. The same papers that were praising the crowds in Tahrir Square would be fulminating against anything they could spin as “violence”. We’ve had no violence yet and we don’t want anything that can even be spun that way.
Even worse, if a few people join up to sabotage the operation deliberately. They don’t need to do much. Just breaking a couple of windows and scratching a car or two would be enough to do untold damage.
And you should seriously worry about the level of discussion here.
No he shouldn’t; the last thing Stu should do is e.g. censor.
Even if people were utterly horrible on here (clearly not as more and more people are flocking to WoS) it wouldn’t make people change their voting intention. People don’t vote based on comments on articles on blog sites. That would be a really silly way to decide the future governance of your country. ‘A wis tempted by indy and a socialist Scotland but there were a few folks online who said they were for independence but were a bit angry and having like a heated debate and stuff at times like so I’m voting No and Tory now’.
Or…some may simply wish that the argument was being made BETTER.
Fraternally.
Or…some may simply wish that the argument was being made BETTER.
The site is open to anyone to contribute articles. Feel free to write one and submit to the Rev. It’s good to have different perspectives. <thumbsupsmiley>
@Silvertay-
Your concerns are understandable, but it’s up to everyone to decide for themselves how best to fight this campaign, and today has crystallised what we’re up against.
No-one’s talking about law-breaking, or putting themselves or anyone else in any danger, and it makes no difference to the treatment we get from the haters in any event – if we sit on our backsides typing civilised messages, or climb tall buildings in our underwear and unfurl banners, we’re still the same ‘evil cybernats’ as far as the Hothersalls, Taylors and Cochranes are concerned.
If even a fraction of the energy and humour than runs through this site is transferable to ‘the street’, then it’s worth trying. Banksy’s been doing it for a long time. We may not produce street art which goes on to fetch millions at Sotheby’s, but we can certainly bring this debate to people in ways which will show up the MSM in this country for the dreary, witless zombie it has become.
That’s more like it. I may well. So long as constructive criticism isn’t leapt on as Black Ops
*rollseyes*
@David
Not sure what your version of ‘good’ arguments is, perhaps you could give us benighted heathens an example?
For the sake of precision, shouldn’t your sign off be ‘Patronisingly’, or ‘Condescendingly’?
Albamac says:11 August, 2013 at 3:51 pm
I see, too, that a mean-spirited, wing-clipped crow has suggested ‘financial irregularities’ on Twitter. With ‘friends’ like these who needs enemies?
Robert louis says: 11 August, 2013 at 4:17 pm
Now, as for those supposedly on the YES side, opening up criticism of finances of WOS etc..
For those of us that think Twitter is the antichrist – Who? Where? When?
(and no surprise whatsoever!!)
ianbrotherhood
As a 59 year old with a gammy leg I am hoping to join in , as I said on my post I was getting carried away with your enthusiasm and it was making me feel younger .
As for someone rolling eyes at the mention of black ops , Diomhair only scratched the surface of the type of dirty tricks that the establishment will go to to protect their interests , I suggest David that you google Dr David Kelly , Hilda Murrell and our very own Willie McRae
Tomorrow is another day. The fight goes on to persuade those that disagree with the point of voting YES that it really is worth considering. Rev Stu,more power too your pencil, the truth WILL win out in the end.
Silverytay, you don’t have to give Ian a lesson in conspiracy theories. Sadly, he’s way ahead of you there.
Morag
I don’t normally go in for conspiracy theories but the more I read into the type of dirty tricks the establishment used to try and keep the empire the more I am convinced they will have sleepers deep within the S.N.P and the YES camp . Margo obviously suspects something when she went to the trouble of writing a letter about it .
@Morag-
Sad, and true. I see them everywhere.
Like today…if, six months ago, someone had told you that every MSM outlet in Scotland would ignore a PB poll asking referendum-related questions, would you have believed them?
And they all reached that important, but very unusual editorial decision independently of one another?
Someone way up the list mentioned giving stats/result to university academics, as a suggestion, what about Mike Danson who is a Scottish economist and was at the Rally last yesr.
For God’s sake. Put your selves in the shoes of Ye Olde otherwise unemployable Grate British Spooks. What else would they do but infiltrate? OK, yes, they run the occasional ‘in your face’ Fake Slovenian, but that is just sweeties for the bairns. The real work is infiltration and ever so subtle.
But
The snakes in the grass will (mostly) be obvious. And they cannot stand against our numbers. The stalls in the street, the conversations with workmates. That can’t be infiltrated, and can’t be beaten. That will win it. No empire has stood against the people, forever. Win or lose in 2014, Scotland will be Independent by 2020
On yer bike, spies
Rev,
Suggest you pass the poll information to Craig Murray who may well be interested in giving it full exposure.
Dont forget, police and security services will infiltrate even the most minor groups:
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/jan/09/undercover-office-green-activists
Given that UK security services were shooting up Basra dressed as islamic militants, got caught by Iraqi police and then the army assaulted the prison to free them which the MoD lied about and the UK press helped cover up for them:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/19/AR2005091900572.html
They’re not exactly going to lose any sleep over infiltrating groups campaigning for Scottish Independence to leak information, in fact it would be naive to believe that they arent.
the more I am convinced they will have sleepers deep within the S.N.P and the YES camp
Sadly, I think you are probably right about that. It’s quite scary, but it’s likely. (When I was membership secretary of London Branch we had a suspicious joiner, but he only seemed interested in discovering how many members we had, and once he had found that out he disappeared and was never seen again.)
I just don’t see any evidence that anyone has been murdered on account of this. If so, they’ve been murdering the wrong people.
Like today…if, six months ago, someone had told you that every MSM outlet in Scotland would ignore a PB poll asking referendum-related questions, would you have believed them?
Yes, easily. I’d have predicted it, certainly with the background of this poll. Whether they all did it independently I couldn’t say. For the record, I think Humbert Wolfe was right.
@pmcrek-
Ooooooh – whichever spook gets assigned to infiltrate our wee multimedia Art Club is in for a treat. He/she can look forward to long boozy sessions in dimly-lit smoky rooms where we’ll discuss guerrilla gardening and which type of paint is best for banners. If he penetrates the inner sanctum (having passed the horrific initiation ceremony) he may even hear us discuss the technicalities of how to assault public monuments with coloured light.
They’d better pick well – it’s not one for the faint hearted. And let them be forewarned – if we ever catch them? They’ll be locked in a windowless room with ten boxes of A4 paper and a box of pencils, and forced to transcribe everything Johann Lamont has ever said in public…as the full horror unfolds on an unpausable loop…
Is it really a surprise that only ~18% would vote to join the union?
http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/forced-choice-national-identity#line
Directly corresponds to the ‘British first’ component of the electorate on a forced identity question. ~75% of Scots are Scots first with just ~15% British first.
Also, missed this recent poll with the Yes higher than the no in May.
http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/do-you-agree-that-scotland-should-be-an-independent-country-dont-knows-not-avai
Aschroft normally uses the populus system/panel which is decent.
@scottish_skier
‘Also, missed this recent poll with the Yes higher than the no in May.
http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/do-you-agree-that-scotland-should-be-an-independent-country-dont-knows-not-avai‘
Ha, a poll that had even less coverage than WoS’s one! Can’t believe I missed it.
@Iain
>>Not sure what your version of ‘good’ arguments is, perhaps you could give us benighted heathens an example? >>For the sake of precision, shouldn’t your sign off be ‘Patronisingly’, or ‘Condescendingly’?
I really don’t mean to patronise or condescend. But please don’t attribute ‘benighted heathens’ sentiments o me: I really am on your side. (and not a sleeper, etc. etc.)
I totally agree that the MSM is somewhat biased. Not totally – for instance Democratic Left Scotland pinged an excellent Scotsman piece by Gerry Hassan at me today. But certainly as a whole, they’re hardly pro-Independence.
So…What s To Be Done? One way would be to produce a survey which illustrated some enlightening and relevant views from the Scottish people. I haven’t seen this. I didn’t see it in the article we are discussing. Sorry. Please answer me this: ‘What clear information was conveyed by the survey? and ‘Where’s the news?’
(At the risk of condescension, I could give many more criticisms of the survey)
We have a duty to do better. Moaning about media bias certainly lets off steam. But a little focus is needed. Media Studies 101: Journalists are more likely to print stories if the hard work of writing the damned things has been taken off them. Don’t expect them to analyse survey data for you.
Yes, there is a mountain of bias to climb. But there’s also a smaller foothill of Quality Control. We’re badly served by blaming (quite genuine!) media bias for all our woes.
Now let’s move on from irrelevances and get out and win our Independence, eh?
Fraternally.
Different sites do different things, and do what they do best. The trick is to find the one you’re comfortable with, the one that’s doing the things you want to do or the things you think should be done.
Wings is what it is. It’s phenomenally successful, which suggests it’s doing something right. Others have exhorted it to change, to become what they want it to be. I think that is misguided. If you want something different, you might find it at NNS, or Bella Caledonia perhaps.
I think Stu is a consummate journalist, and he’s getting results. If you prefer a different way of doing things, fine, but don’t try to change what a huge cadre of people are happy with. Find the cadre of people you’ll be happy with instead.
David – are you Gerry Hassan? He’s always complaining that we should buck up our ideas and that we”re all having the “wrong debate” too.
Flatulently.
What clear information was conveyed by the survey?
– That the Scots electorate trust the Yes campaign way more than No
– That the Scots electorate would not vote to join the union if currently independent
– That Yes and No voting intention is closing rapidly at a loss to No with gains for Yes
– That the Scots electorate believe the MSM is biased against independence
– That the Scots electorate don’t believe any further powers will be devolved with a good few fearing the powers of the Scottish parliament will be weakened
Personally, I couldn’t care less if this doesn’t make the news. As noted in my recent WoS comments, polls don’t influence what people are thinking; they reflect it. The results could not be better; they confirm everything I suspected. If I was pro-union, I’d be bricking it. Really bricking it.
Ianbrotherhood, I find it helps to think that there’s a good chance MI5 have used some of their budget to buy a round for you.
Another interesting snippet was that when the question is asked as it usually is, in the form of how would you vote if the referendum was tomorrow, this has the effect of pushing far more of the don’t knows to respond No than Yes. This poll dressed the question up only minimally, and got the Yes within its usual margin of error while the No plummeted and the Don’t Know soared. I found that fascinating.
I don’t think it matters at all if this isn’t publicised. It’s very useful information for us.
@scottish_skier
There is something strange about that poll result you linked to. I clicked on the link for more details, and got a spreadsheet which shows (unfortunately) a much less favourable result, 30% Yes, 56% No. There appear to be columns missing when I open the spreadsheet in LibreOffice. Is the discrepancy explained somehow by these missing columns?
@pmcrek-
I’ll turn anyone’s dosh into Lambrini at the drop of a hat with nary a blush – I’m just a boy who can’t say ‘No’.
Aha!
The Major has returned.
Did you know people have been asking about you?
Where did you be, and what’s about you been up to?
I am surprised that anyone should doubt the fact that we are infiltrated. Of course we are – and always have been.
What have we been paying out taxes for for years if the UK government hadn’t been religiously doing this. The modus operandi is tried and trusted. Low level disruption at branch and CA level is continuous and usually effected by tittle tattle and setting members against each other. Very often it is the “super nat” – and it has to be because maximum damage can only be caused by someone who has gathered support and reached positions in the organisation. I could point a finger right now at several and one in particular who has caused havoc over thirty years in several branches in several parts of central Scotland. Moving on is usually part of the action. I can go right back to Hamilton after Winnie’s triumph and a young zealot who joined us. We were going to go down to the Holy Loch and burn down the pier there, go to Lewis and dig up the rocket range etc. Then somebody started to ask for some background. He disappeared. He was a member of the RAF military police.
Most of them however are lower level and supplying info. Some are in receipt of small reward. They have stuff on others. They are in all political parties, all universities and colleges,all trade unions, all of the media.
If Rev Stu asks David (fraternally) to write an article will the commenters each get marked out of ten? Somebody might even get a gold star.
O/T but also on topic, I’ve just stumbled on a fascinating lecture and Q&A session featuring Dr. Larry Sabato of the University of Virginia Centre for Politics on the BBC Parliament Channel. It covers completely the very topics we’ve been discussing over the last couple of days – polling and why they get it wrong, changing populations and increasingly poor news coverage – largely in the US but including here. It’s very, very interesting and it’s on right now.
@Scaraben
Seems to have used Yougov methodology there. Yougov’s weird. They seem to have two methodologies; one which matches panelbase, ICM, AR etc (giving yes in at ~4 in 10) and another which shows the most wildly anti-indy scores possible.
I don’t know why this is, but I suspect two different weighting methods; one they use for Scotland (Holyrood VI etc) and one which they use for Westminster VI (which e.g. if you say ‘SNP’ but voted Labour for Westminster previously they massively down weight you – basically they consider you as only having one parliament / live in England).
For the poll in question you’d need to ask Prof C where the final numbers came from.
Great, Skier!
We’re getting somewhere. Now somebody has to write that up in a properly focussed press release. (An earlier poster described how to go about it, how to distribute)
Once that’s done, if it’s ignored, then there may be a case for crying media bias. But you have to do your side first.
(But do we seriously expect ‘We are biased, survey reveals!’ headlines?:-) Plus…from a survey design pov there are still many, many things wrong and journalists would have case for rejecting on quality grounds.)
So my point is…let’s reserve our ire for real examples of bias. This does not appear to have been one.
@joybell – Nah. Recent experience has taught me not to bother reading Below The Line.
🙂
http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2012/aug/yougov-poll-momentum-remains-snp-and-yes
Example of when Yougov use their Holyrood VI system.
36% Y vs 45% N Aug 12.
In contrast, their other (UK?) method gives low Yes (30%) and just plain silly No (55%+).
Just arrived home.
Re Scotland’s media: Contemptible cowards – or in schoolboy parlance; Shitebags, the lot of them.
I sat all night trawling the papers to see who would publish and what would they say. When it came 5.30 am and I saw the pish being offered as news, I knew I’d wasted my time.
from a survey design pov there are still many, many things wrong and journalists would have case for rejecting on quality grounds.
Completely disagree here. The only question that could be considered a little unfair (although it was done in jest) in the WoS panelbase poll was including only Tory governments as a ‘threat to Scotland’. ‘New Labour’, ‘Liberal Democrat’ and ‘SNP’ options would have made this fairer but would have been unlikely to have altered the figures for Tories as a threat.
None of the questions were leading and many passive (i.e. not forced to make a choice between extreme options). As good as or better than many professional polls published in the MSM.
As noted, I’m not outraged in the least about the MSM not reporting the results. For me the results of the poll are fascinating. Basically, the MSM has little to no power in the debate as suspected. If it did, we’d not have and SNP majority and a referendum next year. Makes me proud of the Scottish electorate; they’re not the fools the pro-union campaign seem to think they are.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/posts/BUGGER
http://www.bbc.scotlandshire.co.uk/index.php/city-news/496-dictionaries-and-polls.html
Well the poll at least gets a mention on the brilliantly funny BBCScotlandshire blog! ????????
The media will never report badly-designed, over-complex surveys which yield uninteresting results, presented badly. Why should they?
An interesting remark, David, though I am compelled to ask what it is you find badly-designed, overly-complex about the survey, why the results are uninteresting, and what about the presentation was bad. As a committed Yes campaigner, we should all be working with each other to present the best case to the undecided. That being the case, surely it would be more productive to explain what was wrong, how you’d do it differently, and work together to eventually produce a better survey in the future? I’m not being sarcastic, either: as a fellow committed Yes advocate, I genuinely want to know the best way to proceed, and if your criticisms are valid, then it’s in all our interests to hear them out.
I don’t want to comment on why Bella or the Collective aren’t talking about the poll: for all we know there could be genuinely good reasons. But combined with several criticisms of the poll, the site, and the Reverend (they never seem to mention the other contributors, do they?), I think it’s exceedingly unhelpful to get distracted by disputes within the Yes community.
At the end of the day, all that Yes supporters really agree on is that Scotland should be independent: within that group you have Labour voters, Lib Dems, SNP, Greens, SSP, and even Tories. So of course there’ll be disagreements apart from the central question of the referendum. But those disagreements can wait until after 18th September 2014: until then, let’s put aside those differences and deal with the big question.
“We have a duty to do better. Moaning about media bias certainly lets off steam. But a little focus is needed. Media Studies 101: Journalists are more likely to print stories if the hard work of writing the damned things has been taken off them. Don’t expect them to analyse survey data for you.”
Balls. Media outlets were banging on Panelbase’s door from Thursday onwards looking for the full tables. Panelbase wouldn’t give them out, but assured anyone asking that yes, the posts on this site were reflecting the results of the poll accurately. If they just cared about the headlines, they’d have gone with that and had articles on Friday.
Everything you’ve written so far smacks of a particularly audacious form of concern trolling. I’m not buying it. You’d have to be an idiot not to be able to see in an instant what new information was delivered by the poll.
@skier
OK – agree to disagree on quality. Even so – of the results you’ve highlighted, which sounds newsworthy enough to make column inches for on anything but a slow news day? Yet another survey not revealing anything earth-shattering is how I (as an Independence supporter!) read it. I’m not saying it’s wholly without interest, just that I doubt it would even be news for a (hypothetical!) pro-Indy newspaper. Not all stories get published.
However…it isn’t so much the survey that interests me as the strong reaction to the lack of external interest. It has clearly triggered a reflex fury over media bias. I agree entirely that the media does display considerable bias (but…not complete bias: Independence stories do appear). However, ire should be reserved for more obvious cases.
In this case, though, the argument is weak. Please allow that the survey might not have been reported for reasons other than bias.
Only when we stop seeing conspiracy everywhere can we focus on the actual conspiracies. Only when we stop wasting our energy can we win Independence.
Keep your powder dry and don’t shoot until you see the whites of their eyes.
Out of interest…is it still assumed that anyone who offers this kind of criticism must be a Unionist spy?
OK, Rev. You win. Not a Troll. Not a Unionist.
You’ll not be disappointed to know that my very first exposure to WoS will also be my last.
Ugh.
Only when we stop seeing conspiracy everywhere can we focus on the actual conspiracies. Only when we stop wasting our energy can we win Independence.
Honestly man, don’t see conspiracy stuff everywhere. Will just stress you out.
I couldn’t care less about whether the media reported the poll results. They don’t change anything; they just show what’s the case in terms of what the electorate is thinking. In many ways it’s better the results don’t make the papers as that will have a long-term negative effect on the pro-union campaign by reducing their turnout. If people who support the union think the referendum is a guaranteed No, they’ll not go out and vote.
You’ll not be disappointed to know that my very first exposure to WoS will also be my last.
Ugh
Like I said, there are lots of places to go on the internet. Find one that suits you. This place obviously doesn’t suit you. That’s not anybody’s problem until you start trying to change the place everybody else is happy with, instead of moving on and finding the place where you will be happy. It just isn’t here.
And don’t you think it’s just a teeny bit arrogant to show up on a site that’s been growing like Topsy for two years, and announce that everybody is doing it wrong and you’re here to put them right?
Is David the same person as david or are they two completely different posters?
@David
Sorry David, but every Newspaper printed this jobbie poll.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/poll-by-2070-scots-independence-as-likely-as-putting-astronauts-on-mars.1375438952
And it wasn’t a slow news day.
Scots independence as likely as a manned mission to Mars. Occurring by 2070.
2070 will be the year after the centenary of the first manned mission to the moon. It’s further into the future than we are into the future from then – or from the first man in orbit in 1961. There have been several successful unmanned missions to Mars already.
Hands up anyone who seriously thinks there isn’t going to be a major push to mark the centenary of 1969 with a manned mission to Mars? That is, if it hasn’t happened before then.
You’d be nuts to bet against it. It’s practically a racing certainty.
So I’m quite comfortable with the comparison. The spin was something else though.
Only when we stop seeing conspiracy everywhere can we focus on the actual conspiracies.
I think the problem here is viewing the media bias as a “conspiracy,” as if it’s some incredibly clandestine, mysterious cabal of shadowy figures speaking in a dark room using code names. In reality, media bias is no more complicated than people realising common interests and acting in accord with those interests. If a poll is against media interests, then it’s less likely to be published by the media organisations which are affected. No Council of Elders meeting in candlelit catecombs, no cigarette-smoking faceless suits using voice scramblers, just self-centred individuals who act in accordance with others.
Back when the phone-hacking scandal was at its height, The Sun didn’t have a lot to say – because it was directly implicated in much of it. Does that mean its lack of coverage is an example of “conspiracy”? No, it’s just natural that a sensitive editor wouldn’t report news that damages its own paper unless it has no choice. When newspapers have to write retractions and apologies when they accuse some celebrity or another of being busted with cocaine on their person, it tends to be relegated to a corner of a page far from the front. Does that mean the paper has a vendetta against the celeb? No, the paper just doesn’t want to present the fact that it got caught out presenting falsehoods.
I sincerely doubt there’s anything as provocative or organised as No campaigners crossing the MSM’s hands with silver: it’s more likely that the MSM recognize that being part of a larger part of Britain makes them “a bigger deal” and the money that accompanies it. In the event of independence, a lot of people in the media (mostly the higher ups) will either have to move down to England altogether and compete with the natives for a job, or they’ll be part of a much smaller network, which can’t be great for their egos. Same with the BBC: in independence, BBC Scotland will disappear, likely replaced with an entirely new organisation. I sincerely doubt Kirsty Wark will stick around in that event – and frankly, good riddance.
@ Morag
Manned mission to Mars is supposed to be around 2020- 2023
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/10200007/Plans-for-manned-mission-to-Mars-drawn-up-by-British-team.html
http://www.business-standard.com/article/current-affairs/100-000-people-apply-for-a-one-way-trip-to-mars-113081100212_1.html
This is promising:
https://twitter.com/stvharry/status/366692464783925249
Harry Smith`s bio says ‘Westminster Correspondent for STV. Also report for Ch4 News, ITV and Aljazeera’
Shows there are some journalists paying attention.
“We have a duty to do better. Moaning about media bias certainly lets off steam. But a little focus is needed. Media Studies 101: Journalists are more likely to print stories if the hard work of writing the damned things has been taken off them. Don’t expect them to analyse survey data for you.”
Balls. Media outlets were banging on Panelbase’s door from Thursday onwards looking for the full tables.
Stuart are you are saying that there was a genuine interest in the poll by the MSM which then instantly dried up when they saw the results on Friday?
I thought that part of their lack of interest could be explained by their laziness and the fact that the data was not charted for them ready for publication. However if the blackout occurred after them already showing interest it seems they have had orders from a “higher authority”. This sounds very very sinister
Fair coverage of WOS polls over on NNS
http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/referendum/7844-the-panelbase-poll-for-wings-over-scotland
Let’s try to create the agenda….
Call Kaye contact details
“Lines are open from 0800 every weekday morning: 0500 92 95 00
You can text 80295 or send your emails to callkaye@bbc.co.uk“
@Taranaich
Quite agree, its nothing more than a collective self interest. The media have spent a long time, especially the last couple of years, individually and collectively setting out a certain narrative regarding the Scottish government. They have invested time, cash and reputation in support of Westminster party affiliations. Bombshell poll results like those of the WoS poll undermines this investment considerably. They really would have been asleep at the tiller if they hadn’t taken notice of the results of this poll and decided discretion was the better part of valour.
@ian brotherhood et al.
I was going to say that I had been abducted by space monsters but in fact we were camping near Fort William with no laptop and no charger for the iPad. Do you know how hard it is to keep up using just a Blackberry?
However, as someone else commented, this amazing crowd-funded poll and the MSM reaction to it makes an incredibly significant story in its own right, and that’s even before the results are considered. It’s conditions like this that make things go viral…
By the way, I’m intending to be at the Edinburgh march in September unless I’m abducted by space monsters (again) or (more likely) am required to go off to Uzbekistan for some light eco-disaster tourism. If I’m at the march I hope to meet some (or all) of you there.
Has anyone thought that perhaps the other yes sites may not wish to give these results greater prominence in order to ensure there is no feeling of “ok we’ve got this in the bag complacency”.
Been busy studying for the last few months, but have managed to sort of keep up with news. I’m convinced that the commissioning and results of this poll has been a hammer blow to all concerned in the no camp. I include the MSM in that.
Saw a mention of WoS on peat warriors site last night. Baffled that Bella has not even mentioned it to date.
Great work to all that made this possible.
Not sure if it is fact,but not even funded parties have thought of crowd funded polls. Simply inspiring.
Guys, thanks to Robbie Dinwoodie pulling me up over a reference to Murray Ritchie’s 2000 book “Scotland Reclaimed”, I’ve been re-reading it. It’s a complete jaw-dropper from the perspective of the referendum campaign. It’s written by a journalist who was right inside the 1999 election, and he explains in graphic detail just how controlling Labour was and is, and exactly the sort of dirty tricks they were using to force the Herald to back Labour.
I’ve just checked, and second-hand copies of the thing are available for pence. You could do a lot worse than get hold of a copy and read all about it.
“I’ve just checked, and second-hand copies of the thing are available for pence. You could do a lot worse than get hold of a copy and read all about it.”
Is there an e-version? I could do with something to stick on the Kindle app for the train journey up next month.
According to Google Books there is no e-book, I’m afraid. I did find second-hand print copies from 73 pence though!
That was on Blackwell’s. Waterstone’s have it at 66 pence and Amazon at 1p! Clearly not recognised for the dynamite it is. See here for a short synopsis.
http://bookshop.blackwell.co.uk/jsp/welcome.jsp?action=search&type=isbn&term=0854110771
Morag,
Amazon charge £3.50 delivery. It is available on play.com for £1.74 – free postage
http://www.play.com/Books/Books/4-/2056252/Scotland-Reclaimed/Product.html?searchstring=Scotland+reclaimed&searchsource=0&searchtype=allproducts&urlrefer=search
What we should do, and perhaps NNS and of course Wings, should email all our pro Indy politicians and ask them to force in a comment about this poll.They should make sure that the public know about it, by enforcing our DEMOCRATIC right to know what the result findings were. They also have a responsibility to ensure the public understand what has gone on, it is of course in their interest, but it is also very much in our interest also.
Amazon are a bunch of sharks and I wouldn’t give them the time of day. I surmised others would work out cheaper once P&P was factored in.
I’ve got the book, right here in my hot little hand. I bought it when it was published (or maybe someone gave me a copy). I’m suggesting some of you, and in particular RevStu, should go source one of these cheap second-hand copies soonest.
Thanks Jimbo, book ordered from Play.com.
I fear the Rev may be in for a fair bit of copy-typing if he decides to feature any of it. It’s absolutely dripping with relevant quotes.
Excuse me Morag, if this is a stupid question but, is Murray Ritchie still alive and active in the MSM?
Mmmmmm
Opening here, non?
He retired a number of years ago, but I see he was doing an election blog in 2011. I certainly don’t remember seeing an obituary!
http://independence-convention.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/murray-ritchie-election-blog-2011.html
As I said, an opening here?
It’s odd to see so little activity from him – that 2011 blog post is the latest a Google search turned up. Given his open and enthusiastic support for independence after his retirement, and his comments in that post about looking forward to the referendum, I’m surprised to see no sign of activity now. I wonder if he is in poor health?
Me too, so who can we ask?
To be honest, I think if he was able to do anything, he’d be doing it.
maybe within official channels but, he is still a journalist and might just like to do a bit of off-piste informing?
To be honest, I think if he was able to do anything, he’d be doing it.
Even so, click the “view my complete profile” to the right of the brolly, for e-mail contact link.
No direct links to the man himself, but you may want to try contacting Mike Small
http://www.scottishindependenceconvention.org/contact-us.aspx
Rev Campbell simultaneously revealed the true opinion of Scots, exposed the Unionist lies & out published the disgraceful Scottish/British/Unionist media.
That almost no mention of the results of this analysis was made by them is no surprise to me whatsoever.
The Establishment has done only what it could have done; shut up, close ranks & hope the ramifications of the poll results will diminish quickly enough to enable them to regurgitate more propaganda.
So, what’s next?
Abe books selling it for 64p plus postage
RE Murray Ritchie. He was Chair of the Scottish Independence Convention at the same time as I was Secretary, and we still correspond occasionally. He had a heart op a couple of years ago, but fully recovered. Elaine C Smith took over as Chair and is still in situ. Mike Small took over from me a couple of years ago, but I am still on the Council. We had a successful Fringe event last Monday at the Assembly Rooms, badly reported by the Scotsman(no surprise there). Plans are being made for future events, one of which will co-incide with the March in September. BTW Murray was on telly not so long ago. Ill check what he is up to lately, and get back here.
Oh good, I’m glad to hear he’s well. His is the sort of inside info about the antics of the press the Yes camp needs to be taking on board.
firestarter says @ 11/aug 11.32 am
bang on!