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Wings Over Scotland


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Posted on November 12, 2022 by

As a rule I try not to respond to the literally dozens of deranged attacks on this site that are posted by James Kelly of Scot Goes Pop, but I really dislike being called a liar so I’m going to take a moment for this one.

James appears to have taken extraordinary offence to a two-paragraph stats post I put up to mark Wings’ 11th birthday this week, and has written two purple-faced rants about it. So for the record’s sake I’m going to comply with his demand as best I can.

I say “as best I can” because annoyingly Wings’ webhost stats have been buggered for most of the summer/autumn due to a number of issues at the server end (readers will have noticed the site itself was somewhat flaky in that period for related reasons). They fell over in early July and were only recently fully fixed again, with restoring the site’s stability having taken priority over sorting the stats out.

But as far as the overall reliability and credibility of SimilarWeb’s figures go, we can use some slightly earlier figures to check, because at the start of June we published a stat post using SimilarWeb’s stats for March, April and May.

(It was the first of three such stats posts we’ve put up in the year and a half since Wings retired in May 2021, slightly fewer than the “billion” claimed by Kelly.)

Their estimate was a total 840,800 visits over the three months.

These are our private webhost figures for the same period:

They total 895,499. So as you can see, the SimilarWeb figure was a little bit of an underestimate, but it was only out by around 6.5% – not half bad for a “speculative extrapolation”. (Some months they overshoot our own figures and sometimes they’re lower, so using three balances it out a bit.) We used the lower of the two figures in the article so that it would be an apples-for-apples comparison with the other sites. We’re scrupulously fair that way.

So since James Kelly demanded we both make our private stats available to permit comparison with each other, we’re sure he’ll now post his own for those months. What could he possibly have to hide?

.

APPENDIX

During this evening’s spittle-flecked diatribe, Kelly also claimed that Wings wasn’t really “closed” because we still put posts up occasionally – mostly short throwaway ones or guest posts other people have asked us to give a wider audience to.

(It seems a waste to spend thousands of pounds on hosting every year to keep the site live as an archive and not use it when there’s something we want to say or when someone asks for a favour.)

For the record, though, since we announced the site’s effective retirement in May 2021 there have been a total of 95 posts in 17 months, which is about one a week. For comparison, in the five months of 2021 leading up to the retirement there were 286, or about two a day.

So we must apologise – we’re actually only about 93% retired. Sorry, James.

[EDIT 9.20am Saturday 12th] Goodness gracious. I’ve just seen that Kelly has responded with another furious screed, but – surprise! – still hasn’t provided any evidence of his own stats. Instead he’s suddenly moved the goalposts and taken aim at a straw man about unique visitor numbers.

I made no claim about unique visitor numbers, explicit or implied. I said Wings was “still far and away the most-read in the country, despite that readership now being mostly angry overgrown children squabbling with each other in the comments”. Which is a stat about how often people visit, not how many of them there are. Of course a site with 95% less content than it used to will have both fewer visits and readers than it used to. Like, duh.

And Kelly hasn’t offered any evidence for HIS unique visitor numbers either anyway, other than to say that they’re only a small fraction of ours, so goodness knows what he thinks his point is, and he’s blocked replies to his tweet so nobody can ask him.

I fear the chap’s quite, quite bananas.

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    260 to “Challenge accepted”

    1. ClanDonald says:

      Sigh. Who cares whether or not you said you were closed, it’s not exactly a criminal offence for you to unclose again whenever you feel like it. James reminds me of a little kid running to the playground assistant every 5 minutes to grass up their playmates for some trivial matter that they perceive to be some great moral injustice. He even told someone else to grow up when she disagreed with him. It must be painful having your knickers in such a twist all the time.

    2. Garrion says:

      What a surprise. Rather than attempt to actually do something even vaguely useful as per political value, the bold James decides to spit the dummy out of the pram and have another wee conniption. Sometimes I don’t know why you bother, frankly. Between him, the dug and the world’s smallest working class hero Mike Small, we are not well served.

    3. Casper1066 says:

      Why does he not just slap it on the table. He sure feels threatened.

    4. Hatuey says:

      Scat Goes Plop.

    5. twathater says:

      Why does it have anything to do with James Kelly when you post or not YOU pay for the hosting and as for the number of visitors so fckn what who cares , I very seldom visit his site because let’s face it there isn’t enough time or patience to visit all the pro indy blogs
      and you can be waylaid when an interesting post comes up with interesting comments and that doesn’t even include the diversions on to twatter , which I am NOT a member of but I sometimes enjoy the exposures

      James park your grievance it is unbecoming, if you and Stu Campbell don’t get on so what, I thought the purpose of these blogs was to keep independence supporters informed and interested in what is happening ,the yes movement is fractured enough with the betrayer sturgeon punting fetid carrots and lying interminably we don’t need any more division
      YOU do what you do and let others do their own thing,

      Stuart you know the yes movement is at a crossroads and desperately needs something to bolster the belief that we are winning against the betrayer, your forensic investigations EXPOSING sturgeon’s corruption is unequaled in the movement YOU cannot deny us this armament , we need the best and committed if we are to convince people they have been conned by a narcissistic evil charlatan

    6. Name (required) says:

      it is annoying when two of the better and more reasoned bloggers i read on the matter of indy have differences of ‘admin’

      argue the point on indy

      not fucken admin ffs

    7. Robert Louis says:

      Why do folk like James Kelly take to doing this kind of thing? You know, the ‘I’m going to take that stuart Campbell down a peg or two’ kind of nonsense. Why does James Kelly even care????? Seriously, what motivates somebody to even think, ‘here’s what I shall write about today’.

      Fecking childish if you ask me. Seems like folks just cannot tolerate the fact that RevSTU is an accomplished writer, with considerable talent. I just wish wings would get going properly again. His voice has been sadly missing from Scottish politics for wayyy too long.

    8. Dave M says:

      What intrigued me the most about Kelly’s initial rant about your numbers, Stu, was that he complained about your post which was replete with graphs, while providing zero evidence of his own statistics. That’s the kind of thing that kids are taught to look out for in first year science class at high school, so you’d think that someone who has set himself up as some sort of authority on polling would have understood the importance of the evidence!!

      It’s interesting that he did a similar thing to Craig Murray a couple of weeks ago. Craig had written a considered piece comparing the SNP Alba’s situations in Scottish politics with those of Sinn Fein and the (I think) Irish National Party around a century ago. Clearly, Murray was illustrating a situation that actually happened in the past. Kelly wrote an unhinged, evidence-free piece asserting that Murray was wrong which essentially boiled down to “because, reasons”.

      Clearly, Kelly is welcome to his opinions, but he isn’t the Oracle of Delphi. (I’m not suggesting that you think you are, James. We all know that that title belongs to John Nicolson MP.)

    9. Dave M says:

      @Robert Louis: ‘Childish’ is a word that has often popped into my head when I’ve read Kelly’s pieces about his own Twitter spats with people or other bloggers. He does seem to hold particularly strong grudges against others. He described me as a troll because i had had the temerity to point out and ask questions about his repeatedly inaccurate naming of a ‘polling’ company. Perhaps it’s James’s way or the highway?

    10. Ken says:

      IMHO, your posts are WAAAAYYY more fun to read, more direct and more readable. And way more bite and meat. Kelly’s are rather dull, even though the comments/observations on polls are interesting enough. (I have funded some polls in the past for Kelly.)

      And even if Wings’ stats included repeat visitors, doesn’t that say something about the value of the posts, that they’re worth coming back to re-read. I seriously doubt someone is sitting hitting RELOAD for the sake of bumping the stats.

      Anyway, I think it is a bit of a pointless pissing contest. It’s not like you’re both competing for advertising and need to show how widely read you are.

    11. Cuilean says:

      Well, where are James’s stats showing his site, ‘Scot Goes Pop’ receives more than 60,500?

      Hold on. I suddenly don’t give a damn.

      I don’t visit James’s site as often as Stu’s retired site, but I have a great fondness for both.

      I love Stu’s fearless and acerbic wit (like Hawkeye from MASH).

      I love James for his ever so quirky but loveable obsession with The Eurovision Song Contest, (in the same way I loved Radar from MASH for always knowing when the choppers were coming).

      So as Colonel Sherman T Potter would say, (kindly), ‘Knock it off’.

      Mixing my shows and films hopelessly here, but as Jack Nicolson said in ‘Mars Attack’, ‘Why can’t we work things out? Little people… (taking to thon wee bastert Martians at this part) Why can’t we all just…. get along?’

    12. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “What intrigued me the most about Kelly’s initial rant about your numbers, Stu, was that he complained about your post which was replete with graphs, while providing zero evidence of his own statistics. That’s the kind of thing that kids are taught to look out for in first year science class at high school”

      Yeah, that was nuts. Yammering on and on about how wrong they were about his stats and then… not a single screenshot to back up his case. I think that’s why I put this post up, really – the sheer oddness of it. Couldn’t be arsed with the rest of his rant about Dugdale and Lawrence et al, but that bit was too bizarre not to pick up on.

    13. Tartan Tory says:

      This may, on the face of it, appear to be somewhat flippant bordering on ignorant, but it’s a genuine question….

      Who the hell is James Kelly and /or Scot Goes Pop?

    14. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Anyway, I think it is a bit of a pointless pissing contest. It’s not like you’re both competing for advertising and need to show how widely read you are.”

      Oh, I know. James is up to nearly 40 Wings-bashing pieces now and I usually just ignore them and let him rage into the ether, but I really don’t like people suggesting I’m lying.

    15. Stoker says:

      James Kelly truly is the Scot who went POP!

      He’s the liar! And i’m proud to say i’ve looked at his “work” once. A few years ago. And it wasn’t good enough to make me want to go back. Add to that the fact that i’ve only ever seen him attack WOS (or more to the point Stuart Campbell) first and Campbell retaliating, which he has every right to do, especially when some blow-hard is calling you a liar.
      __________

      Can i just take this moment to truly thank The All Blacks women’s rugby team for beating England in the World Cup and saving Scotland from being subjected to decades of sycophantic saturation coverage via every single media outlet. Well done & thank you.

    16. stuart mctavish says:

      pissing contest?
      No idea what that means but this looks apposite

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wsPE1IWxA8

    17. Holymacmoses says:

      I guess it was the ‘closed’ season:-)

    18. Patsy Millar says:

      As far as James Kelly goes, I occasionally go to his site when he is saying something of interest (not that often I’m afraid) but if I want proper analysis of the situation I would always choose Wings as my first port of call.

    19. Patsy Millar says:

      Should also say that Grousebeater, Iain Lawson and of course Craig Murray are just behind you in my list.

    20. John Main says:

      Pointless rowing over nothing is what we do.

      We’re Scots. It’s in our DNA.

      Look around you today, see where it has got us.

    21. Anonymoose says:

      One would think with ample fodder in Scottish politics to be writing about at the moment Mr Pop would be directing his ire towards those topics, instead he picks on WoS about website stats without divulging any of his own.

      I’ve always found Mr Pop’s articles to be found wanting, unless there’s some polling statistics for him to write about he just pumps out garbage articles & opinion pieces to create issues where there are none.

      The fact he chose to target by way of attempted critique in regards to the “The Eleventh Hour” article celebrating Wings’ 11th birthday without producing any figures of his own as a comparator (something any statistician should be alert to producing in order to justify data and their argument) is typical of an attempted smear piece that which we see all too often in the MSM directed towards politicians who have fallen out of favour with their party leadership, it’s a shitty underhanded tactic and to see it being used in this way by Mr Pop only serves to damage his own reputation further.

    22. John Main says:

      @Stoker 9:03

      And continuing the theme of “pointless rowing”…

      You really need to teach yourself to stand back and see the bigger picture.

      Which outcome helps Indy most? Defeat at whatever stage England got to (I neither know nor care), or “decades of sycophantic saturation coverage”?

      You prefer the former outcome. I wonder if the latter outcome would not work better at keeping fresh the differences between England and Scotland in the minds of apolitical Scots.

      But I can’t prove that. 🙂

    23. Geri says:

      The answer is simple.

      He’s well jel.

      He should be thankful of the exposure & the free advertisement he’s an indy blogger.

    24. Republicofscotland says:

      Why is James Kelly so angry about this, is his pride hurt because you posted his visitor figures and he doesn’t like it that they aren’t higher.

      It seems very childish to me for Kelly to be ranting and raving about this, especially when Sturgeon is in the process of flushing Scotland down the toilet.

      If one didn’t know any better (and I don’t) you’d have thought that Kelly was desperate for you to close down the site altogether due to you having higher all round figures even though you have retired.

    25. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      I’m just helping him out, really. Like Bella Caledonia, the only way he can get decent traffic and engagement these days is by talking about Wings…

    26. Willie says:

      Rev Stu,

      Tell James Kelly that you love him. Tell him he is a great blogger. Tell him he is primus inter pares.

      Give him comfort. He might be upset. You couldn’t not be upset just now with the state of things. Put of frustration and despair James could be an angry young adult

      In short Rev Stu, tell him you love him.

    27. Hatuey says:

      Classic case of attacking someone well-known just to git some ‘tention. Used to see that a lot back in Dodge when gunslingers was in town.

      You gotta watch those farmhand punks, tho… all it takes is a couple of sips and it seems they don’t got nuttin to lose.

      Ain’t no convincing’ them.

      Them gunslingers, them’s well-known for a reason.

    28. Kenny says:

      Who’s in the lead in the ‘Hate Wings’ league? Kelly or Wishart?
      Jeez, those two have their priorities, and it shows, eh?

      “You’d ‘ave to *really* ‘ate the Romans?”
      “I do!”
      “Oh yeah?”..
      Hahah.

    29. Stoker says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says on 12 November 2022 at 10:44 am: “I’m just helping him out, really. Like Bella Caledonia, the only way he can get decent traffic and engagement these days is by talking about Wings…”

      LOL! But that’s the problem, and he knows it. He also knows everyone else knows it too. And that’s got to hurt.
      __________

      @ John Main on 12 November 2022 at 10:14 am

      Tell you what i’ll do with you, John. Come back when you’ve got the figures to prove it would be worth it (that it would result in a benefit to us) and i’ll give you an answer. There you go, can’t say fairer than that. 😉

    30. Geri says:

      @Kenny

      LOLZ!

    31. robertkknight says:

      Someone needs to put the chipolata away, instead of waving it around trying to impress others who have stats to match their cojones.

    32. John Main says:

      @Hatuey 10:58

      “Used to see that a lot back in Dodge”

      Never ever placed you in Dodge. Thought you old timers all moved to Boot Hill years ago.

      Ever chew the fat with that gunslinging Earp fellow? Half Scottish wasn’t he? You could have enjoyed a wee catch up, as long as you minded your P’s and Q’s.

    33. Stoker says:

      [EDITED BY REVSTU] Sorry, I’m not encouraging anyone to give any more money to these grifters. What did they do with the last £120,000? That joke of a “newspaper” they gave away with The National? Geeza brek.

    34. Sarah Mackenzie says:

      O/T: someone was asking btl the other day for a newer wee book [no doubt wishing for material to convert multiple Noes to Yes] – I’ve just spotted that Voices for Independence have the Wee Alba Book download link at the top left of their page.

    35. Ottomanboi says:

      A totally, so wrong article by someone called Pat Kane.
      https://archive.ph/X9KrE
      Where might one begin the critique? There is much to overload the synapses.
      People like this, sentimentalist and guilt ridden to a fault, ahistorical, acultural, pseudo scientific, for good measure, are dangerous.
      I smell the sickly stink of globalist WEF. The odour that also permeates the SNP.
      Plainly his understanding of «Scotland» is superficial as is that of the journal it appears in and many who would claim to speak in her interests.

    36. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Ottomanboi (1.07) –

      Pat Kane has been producing similar drivel for almost forty years.

      Regardless of whatever rosette he happens to be sporting he’s just Scottish Labour, like so many of the chancers who’ve sidled up to the SNP/Yes movement since 2011.

    37. Robert Hughes says:

      This is the way the world ends
      This is the way the world ends
      Is this the way Scot/land ends ?
      Not with a whimper , or a bang
      But with a Pop ?

    38. Geri says:

      To cut through the ‘show me the money’ contingent.

      Show me where it is within the Union.

      It all goes to George.
      It’s proven its all spent on George.
      George makes all the decisions.
      George doesn’t love you.
      George is shafting you blind & asset stripping.

      I don’t think it’s up to Yessers to keep providing figures. It’s so long debunked it’s a fecking joke by now.
      Even during indyref Better Together dropped that bullshit with even Cameron admitting *Scotland is a wealthy country, of course it is, its able to exist on its own…but, but, but we don’t want you to do that Scotland. We love you. We want you to stay & be an equal partner (Whit? We weren’t already?) Lead, don’t leave us, mwha)

      After Naw vote:

      *Right, you Jockos. You’ve had your say. Now STFU & go away! It breaks my heart you bastards nearly won. Now – yer punishment. It’s permanent. Yer getting sweet fuck all. In fact, having your ref has now empowered me to say that England, NI & Wales all take precedence above you. You’re now muted & removed from the parliament of GB. In fact, today, I’m going further – I’m announcing EVEL & that the GB parliament is now our English only parliament & it’s only right that we English return to revisiting the Mid Lothian Question. We should have Devo too*

      Aye, dodgy Dave, what happened to that?

      After this wee spiel on the steps of Dowdy street we were no longer loved, an equal valued member within his family of Nations shite. We were vilified 24/7 that a *swarm of mad Scots* were about to descend on *Thier* parliament.

      The Unionist governments have shafted you for decades, what makes you think that’ll ever change?

    39. George Ferguson says:

      @Geri 2:20pm
      Goodness me I hope you are not talking about me! No you can’t be. I love Independence supporters.

    40. James Che says:

      Its the classic divide and split.

      WGD was often hostile to wings as well, maybe funding comes from some sources that require a certain split in the INDY for Scotland groups.

      That was being done on your site until you put you’ re foot down recently, and offered to ban the people causing the constant spoon stirring, the attempt to stir shite while not contributing anything to forward independence.

      This is the same play ground tactics.
      Pick a side and divide.

    41. Rab Davis says:

      Couple of good sports results today.

      Kings Eleven draw 1-1 with St Mirren.

      And New Zealand win the women’s rugby cup final against the detested English.

      Anything that helps keep the Butcher’s Aprons in the bottom drawer has got to be a good thing.

    42. Confused says:

      – that’s a terrible piece ottomanboi, but a great example of the cringe, and of how hard it will be to get out of this mess : Pat Kane is a “thought leader” after all.

      The book Kane raves about is calling for a world government to make all decisions “for the good of the planet”, which would make the nation state obsolete; so much for indy. And in this world govt, who is in it? And do we get a vote? When fascism returns, it will paint itself green.

      Pat Kane has a degree in german (I think) – he certainly cannot count. Nigeria alone has about 200M people, and the projections for Africa by 2100 are a jawdropping 4B. Can the world handle an excess of 3B africans (not singling them out, it’s just everywhere else has levelled off).

      – and little Scotland, over-resourced and under-populated (why was that again?) with its 5M people, can do little about the big numbers, but it can destroy itself. Piecemeal “christian charity” is fine, I suppose, but what Kane suggests is self annihilation. Will the Scots survive even at homeopathic levels?

      Encouraging swarming levels of africans into europe does nothing other than destroy the welfare state and NHS; most of these unfortunates have little to offer and are destined to become welfare recipients or criminals. Oh yeah, technology means demand for labour will over time, drop to very low levels (people with special skills and actual decision makers) – mind you, every advert would tell you the average african is a brain surgeon physicist engineer chess grandmaster …

      The real solution would be to develop Africa, which is huge and hugely resourced, a plan advanced by Gaddafi (and weirdly, fantasised about by Hollywood – “Wakanda”), but he got a knife up his arse for his trouble; don’t fuck with Wall St, chump, just don’t do it. The purpose of Africa is to absorb US excess food (produced by its subsidised farmers), provide essential minerals, e.g. for mobile phones, at base cost, and exist as a bag of corrupt kleptocracies, infested by corporations, mercenaries and other low life. The poor bastards never had much of a chance and “decolonisation” just another “bait and switch”.

      It’s an evil, clever plan – use war and financial scamming to destroy people in the third world, then use the survivors to destroy your own working class in your own societies; and call it humanitarianism and anyone who naysays is a “racist” of the “far right”. “Liberals” and “democrats” are the worst, most evil bloody murderers and creators of chaos.

      I think Pat lives up the West End of Glasgow, and has kids. It’s an open secret, never commented on, but the westenders live highly subsidised lives over the rest of us – for example, Jordanhill School, is a state school, but provides “private school” levels of attainment; getting your kid in there saves you about 20K a year. Then there is the matter of council tax; the bands were set sometime in prehistory and do not reflect in any way the value of current property – the rich should pay more, probably 2 or 3 times what they currently pay. The greens are very big in the area, but have never proposed this (- it would be destruction at the ballot box for whoever suggests it). They also benefit in other ways – its a pleasant area, safe, with high levels of services; you don’t get the same in the East or North, and if you need to call the police for any reason, they will likely turn up.

      Liberals should have some “skin in the game” – here is a modest proposal. Shut down Jordanhill, turn it into a hostel for asylum seekers – and comp them all vouchers for Oran Mor.

      The really disgusting thing about Kane and pricks like him is the way they just assume – ordinary people who have no control over an economic system they did not construct, and which does not work for them, can be blamed for its excesses and predations and -punishment- meted out to them, righteously. I bet he has the latest iPhone and thinks the eco-fairies just conjured it out of thin air, at no cost, no carbon emissions and not made in some human ant farm with nets to prevent suicide … “for thee but not for me”.

    43. Stuart MacKay says:

      Sarah Mackenzie

      Thanks for the mention about the Wee Alba Book on voices.scot. Here’s the link for convenience, https://www.albaparty.org/wee-alba-book

      In the interests of equality there are also links to the SNP’s position papers on independence. There are links for part 1 & 2 and if I can ever sum up the energy I’ll add the third one on the economy – though some mysterious force is apparently holding me back.

      As for the spat over popularity, I’d counsel the Rev. not to diminish himself by getting involved but then I looked at the voices.scot stats for the past 4 weeks and, my God, it’s a neck and neck race between Wings and Scot Goes Pop!, https://www.voices.scot/source/popular/ 🙂 WGD is still at the bottom of the page so there is still some stability in the universe.

    44. Rab Davis says:

      Looking forward to the world cup.

      Will help take your mind off of Sturgeon for a couple of weeks.

      Some English non entity told us all that England will go one better than the last tournament,,and go on to win the World Cup

      England of course will NEVER win the World Cup.

      Looking forward to good football,,,And you get the bonus of watching the detested English getting kicked out of the tournament.

    45. Iain Lawson says:

      I do not think the figures are widely inaccurate but in the case of Yours for Scotland it seriously underestimates our reach as we have several thousand direct email subscribers who receive the full post of articles by email and don’t require to visit the site to read them, only if they want to post a comment.

    46. Stoker says:

      Rev says:
      “[EDITED BY REVSTU] Sorry, I’m not encouraging anyone to give any more money to these grifters. What did they do with the last £120,000? That joke of a “newspaper” they gave away with The National? Geeza brek.”

      There’s another one near the bottom of previous thread. You might want to remove that one too.

    47. Robert Hughes says:

      ” After this wee spiel on the steps of Dowdy street we were no longer loved, an equal valued member within his family of Nations shite. We were vilified 24/7 that a *swarm of mad Scots* were about to descend on *Thier* parliament.”

      They needn’t have worried about that possibility , eh , Geri ?

      What they actually got was a band of line-towing , ” we come in peace , where’s the bar ? ” useless fucks who would only rebel if their salaries/expenses were threatened with being reduced .

      To be fair though , in this respect they’re no different from the population-at-large .

      In recent years what’s caused people to take to the streets in protest in the UK ?

      Involvement of foreign conflicts ?

      Wage stasis ?

      Chronic housing shortages/expense ?

      The ongoing privatisation of the NHS ?

      No , nothing as * trivial * as those things .

      But the top football clubs considering forming part of an elite Euro Super League . Fckn man the barricades , ” Not In Our Name ” , NO PASARAN !

      Agitators for political change are completely on the wrong track ; if you want to harness proletarian anger threaten to abolish Strictly Come Dancing , I’m A Celebrity etc ; and if you really want to open Pandora’s Gogglebox – End Match Of The Day

    48. Andy Ellis says:

      @Confused

      Pat Kane has a degree in german (I think) – he certainly cannot count.

      Pat’s degree was in English, from Glasgow Uni, class of 1985. I think he was Rector in the 1990’s too. He’s one half of Hue and Cry. He was married to Joan MacAlpine the former SNP MSP.

      Pat’s trial balloon in the link looks to me to all intents and purposes like an implicit admission that independence is too parochial”

      But there’s an old irony to be savoured here. The “independence in Europe” that got many of us on the bus of indy implied a sophisticated sovereignty – one that, when asserted, was then intelligently shared with co-operative neighbours.
      We now have to complement that with “independence in the biosphere”. We’re in a situation where a responsible northern state faces tidal waves of humanity torched out of their homelands by the climatic consequences of an industrial and consumerist era we fully played our part in.

      Our vision of Scottish independence will once again have to subject its national self-determination to wider, juster considerations – particularly in this migration-centred, nomadic century. At least, we can say we’ve already had the argument.

      And we know exactly who we’re distancing ourselves from.

      If “independence in the biosphere” means leadership by Pat and his like minded mates, I’m minded to say they can keep it. I’ll still take “independence in Europe” – or even “independence semi-detached with Europe” – over the independence of his wider, juster consideration ta very much!

    49. Stoker says:

      HEADS UP!

      Folks, if you have any postage stamps kicking around the home or office you need to use them up before the end of this year (2022). From the 01/01/2023 new stamps will take over, stamps with QR-barcodes on them, they will replace the current type. And as far as i know we will not be able to use the current type from the 01/01/23. These new QR-barcoded stamps are already being introduced into circulation as i had to purchase some today.

    50. Vestas says:

      James Kelly is a bitter, twisted little man – rejected by Alba, rejected by the SNP, rejected by his “readers” to the extent he put up a “wah wah wah nobody loves me, think I’m giving up” post a few weeks back which was basically so narcissistic it was unreal. Unsurprisingly he hasn’t given up because his ego couldn’t handle it.

      The BTL posts on his site are risible nonsense, either written by his (obvious) alter ego or censored crap which conforms with his world view.

      Best thing he could do is disappear because nobody really gives a shit about anything he has to say anymore.

    51. Dan says:

      @ Stoker

      Plus anyone fortunate enough to have a stash of bank notes of the old paper type stuffed under their mattress needs to take them to the bank as they are being phased oot.
      I found a ream of old pound coins which I think can also be taken to the bank. Although in the past someone who isn’t me used them as EGR blanks on car engines by welding them onto the flange. The queen looked pretty cool sporting a big afro barnet when the coin blackened with the welding heat. 😉

    52. George Ferguson says:

      @Andy Ellis 3:48pm
      I observed today tulips and daffodils in my garden, confused by the warm weather thinking it was Spring. So climate change is a consideration for every population. It is about handling the transition away from fossil fuels dependency. Back in the 1970s Gordon Wilson campaign ‘It’s Scotland’s Oil’ was the time to build up a sovereign fund like Norway. The UK Government wasted the money and now through their renewable decisions the Scot Gov have done the same. I still think Scotland can be an Independent country albeit with better relationships with Europe and our immediate neighbours. I don’t understand the Scot Gov 20 billion from oil and it will all be OK. A lack of strategic capability on this and other issues by the Scot Gov.

    53. Ottomanboi says:

      IAN BROTHERHOOD &CONFUSED.
      Glad I’m not alone in being «troubled» by Kane’s worldview. I know little about how he fits into the independence spectrum, however, that sentimental we gotta fix the hurt planet stuff resonates with material on the World Economic Forum website which dares to presume it has all the answers, all the expertise. From my perspective this is just another manifestation of colonialism, cultural élitism mixed with intellectual hubris.
      In the west «liberalism», I presume Kane would consider himself a subscriber, has joined with the fantasies and prejudices of «Woke» to become a vehicle for «right thinking», authoritarianism.
      Democracy is wonderfully messy, just like human beings and the ever changing planet we inhabit but living in these guys «perfected» universe would be tedium. the tedium of slavery.
      Scots ought to be attending to the cultivation of their bit of the globe. Historically, Scotland as a nation has suffered overmuch from neglect of that basic principle.
      Altruism does have its limits.

    54. Stoker says:

      Dan says on 12 November 2022 at 4:14 pm

      “I found a ream of old pound coins which I think can also be taken to the bank. Although in the past someone who isn’t me used them as EGR blanks on car engines by welding them onto the flange. The queen looked pretty cool sporting a big afro barnet when the coin blackened with the welding heat.”

      LMAO! (I needed that! Cheers! Big thumbs up! Teary-eyed!)

    55. John Main says:

      @Confused 3:03 pm

      Good post, even if it is hoaching with awkward and uncomfortable truths. I can handle them, but there are plenty who can’t, even on here.

      One question though. If the “purpose” of Africa is to absorb US excess food, how come so much of Africa is going short because of the Russti blockade of food exports from 404?

      BTW, if you want a serious conversation about council tax banding, perhaps start by explaining the connection between the value of your house and your use of local services. I can’t see any direct connection myself. In fact, I would guess that if there is any connection, then it is an inverse one, I.e. The more expensive your house, the less the demand you are likely to make on health and social services, police, etc.

    56. John Main says:

      @Dan 4:14

      The harm to human health from nitrous oxides is well known, which is why EGR valves were introduced in the first place. Drivers can save money by blanking them, but at the expense of a more toxic environment for everybody else.

      Hardly any time since you were camped on the moral high ground. Just as well it wisnae you doing the EGR valves. That wouldnae be a good look.

    57. Dan says:

      Do you work on cars and engines much John? A lot of expensive maintenance and cost for the consumer to cope with as the EGR systems fault code up and components fail due to clagging up with oily soot.
      I’ve spent days cleaning out choked egr valves, inlet manifolds and cylinder head ports.
      All that stuff is fine and well when the car is tested when new to meet an emission level for taxation class. But it soon causes faults, especially when cars are fulled with the cheaper supermarket diesel which doesn’t burn so clean.
      Tell the government to stop selling shite diesel fuel would help reduce emissions. And don’t get me started on ethanol…
      My old reliable car is on 310k miles now, let me know when an affordable leccy car manages to get that mileage.

    58. Rab Davis says:

      Hahaha
      What a day.

      The detested England gubbed by Samoa in some other game of Rugby.

      This is what we want.

      Butcher’s Aprons kept in the bottom drawer,,, where they belong.

    59. Effijy says:

      Poor guy has lost the plot.
      Pop as his bubble has burst rather than pop ular

      It must be hard to put all you have into only to find someone not chasing numbers beats you
      by a mile.

      Have a nice Xmas Mr Kelly!
      I’m
      Blocked from sending that directly.

    60. James Che says:

      Council tax is poll tax with a new branding name.

      A house or a building cannot provide council tax to the council,
      nor can district amenities that lie inert, provide money in council tax to the council until the/a person moves into a building or district.
      The council tax is still on the person as poll tax, it is still connected to the person individually, not the amenities nor the district, nor building,
      Your last place of residence is checked when you move house to see your council tax code and if you are fully paid up or due a refund.

      Your bill or refund is not given to the local amenities district you once lived in at your old address,
      It is prrsonally yours for good or bad, ie attached to the person, not the amenities, building or district.

      You are the one the bill or refund is attached to.

      The rebranding and word smithing by local councils does not change the fact the tax is on the person,

    61. Republicofscotland says:

      “One question though. If the “purpose” of Africa is to absorb US excess food, how come so much of Africa is going short because of the Russti blockade of food exports from 404?”

      Turkey mediated a return to the exports, which stopped because 404 was attacking the ships, prior to the attacks, the lion’s share of the grain went to Europe only 3% of the grain went to where it was needed most, European nations keeping most of the grain for themselves.

    62. Andy Ellis says:

      only 3% of the grain went to where it was needed most, European nations keeping most of the grain for themselves.

      Meanwhile back in the real world not inhabited by uncritical Vlad fluffers, the situation is a tad more complex:

      https://archive.ph/3GySE

    63. Geoff Huijer says:

      Attacks on Wings are always about either envy at the popularity, or anger because some people don’t like the truth. Closed-minded people.

      Someone once said “The mark of an open mind is being more committed to your curiosity than to your convictions. The goal of learning is not to shield old views against new facts. It’s to revise old views to incorporate new facts. Ideas are possibilities to explore, not to defend.”

      One of the reasons Labour were in power in Scotland for so long despite all the evidence that they were not good for the people was that closed mind attitude and an unwillingness to ‘see’ the situation for what it was. Sad, really, and it seems that attitude is now the one many take with the SNP.

    64. Republicofscotland says:

      Now that Sturgeon the betrayer and her side-kick Liz Lloyd are back from grandstanding in Egypt. The betrayer is back in spouting drivel mode, here the Judas claims she’s worried about how the English Chancellors budget cuts will affect Scotland, as if she gives a toss about Scots.

      “I don’t think it will come as any surprise to hear me say, I’m profoundly concerned at what we may hear from the Chancellor on Thursday.”

      Hunt said he will make “eye-watering” decisions after the economy shrank in what is predicted to be the beginning of a record-long recession.

      This will include painful public spending cuts and tax hikes, to fill the so-called black hole in the nation’s finances.”

      Sturgeon and her MSPs/MPs sold out Scotland when they did nothing to get us out of this union after Brexit, and she’s wasted mandate after mandate that we’ve given her to get us out of this union, she’s had a pro-indy majority (Greens included) since she took office, and she’s dangled the indy carrot ever since without actually achieving anything on the indyfront. One could reasonably say that she’s done more harm than good to the indy cause.

      Sturgeon only cares about Sturgeon, and allowing men dressed as women into real women and girls safe spaces.

      Oh, and if Sturgeon the Judas and her entourage’s taxpayers jolly to Egypt annoyed you, her Glasgow City council leader and two aides also flew out to Egypt on a jolly at the taxpayers expense.

      Lets get Alba MSPs into the Holyrood chamber (if it takes that long to exit this rancid union) to see the look on the Sturgeon’s face if she’s still FM by then, one hopes not. Remember she screamed in delight They’re dead, when Alba a real indy party failed to win a seat at the last Scottish elections.

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F23119347.nicola-sturgeon-profoundly-concerned-ahead-autumn-budget%2F

    65. John Main says:

      @Dan 4:57

      Done my time scraping clag from EGR valves.

      Nowadays, on VAG diesels, squirt through an aerosol of EGR cleaner (less than £10), then regenerate the DPF, clear the fault codes, top off with a full throttle blast somewhere quiet.

      Usually, job done. If not, repeat the process.

      You will need a diagnostic tool capable of driving the DPF regen. Mine cost £350, but probably still cheaper than one visit to a dealer to dismantle and clean/replace the EGR valve.

      Wonder if the dealers are just doing the same process anyways.

      Yet to drive a leccy car, but like the looks of Tesla models.

    66. John Main says:

      @RoS 6:22

      Is it a “so called” black hole, or a real black hole, in the UK finances?

      There’s a world-wide recession ATM, made worse by Covid and the war. An iScotland will be subject to the same economic stresses.

      In the absence of anything from NS other than “profound concern”, let’s hear it on here what an iScotland will do to fill this black hole.

      Not for me, for the curious readers on here who are desperate to know what a plausible solution will do for them.

    67. Dorothy Devine says:

      I am disappointed in young James, I thought better of him.

      Confused, I really enjoyed your comment.

    68. Dan says:

      @ John

      Aye okay, if only it was that easy for some cars and vans just doing the superficial fix. Was recently taking a fooked EGR valve off a Freelander 2 which uses the PSA group DW12 engine. Twat of a thing to work on with it situated on the back of the head, with pipes, hoses, delicate wiring in the way, and inaccessible bolts of different sizes and styles holding it on.
      You’re climbing on the engine like a monkey moving around in the jungle. Of course the flaps in the dual runner inlet manifold are all cruded up with sludge like the inlet ports in the head, so you have to take it all off to sort. But then that is to be expected after thousands of miles of feeding soot back into the engine.
      Just nae need for it to be so awkward and expensive to sort. Vehicles end up getting scrapped because they are not “economically viable” to fix, so an existing car has to be replaced with another with no thought for the economic footprint disposable cars creates.
      But mind, these were the diesels we were all told to buy as they were the future of motoring… Guess naebody thought to bother about the fumes they put out back then.
      You said you stay in a flat previously, are you gonnae run a high current charge cable doon the stairs and across the pavement to a parking space to charge yer Tesla? Good luck with that!

    69. Dan says:

      That should be “with no thought for the economics and carbon footprint disposable cars create…”

    70. Kcor says:

      The only purpose of The National and James Kelly is to milk gullible independence supporters.

      Just as the biggest betrayer in Scottish history hijacked the cause for independence and an entire nation for personal gain.

    71. John Main says:

      @Dan 7:21

      I aspire to maybes drive a Tesla afore I go, owning one not on the cards short of a big lottery win.

      Then again, no figures have yet been presented for the post-Indy dividend to us Scots!

      I recall somebody who had worked in Saudi telling me that some of the locals had so much money, and so little understanding of tech, that they would buy a brand new car, drive it around for a week, then abandon it when it ran out of fuel, thinking it was broken.

      A few years ago, mind. Never did find out if it was true.

    72. Dan says:

      @ John

      Volvo studies stated you need to do about 70k miles before the crossover of a leccy car being better than a petrol. An aquaintence works at Ford / Daf tech development in Coventry and he was saying much the same. So you’ll need to crack on with racking up the mileage when you get yer Tesla or why bother.
      Another mate works at Landrover / Jaguar and they have an accident damaged leccy Jag in, the battery pack got damaged in the bump… Apparently £20k to replace!

      My next car may be a classic from 1980ish so it is VED and MOT exempt. I’ve already built an optimised hybrid engine for it using certain parts selected from different engines. It has lighter components so less reciprocating mass, which also gives a higher compression ratio optimised for running on autogas (propane), that burns cleaner than both diesel and petrol. It’s amazing what a thicko lacking intellectual height can do…

    73. George Ferguson says:

      @John Main 7:37pm
      I was an advisor to the UAE teaching engineering undergraduate students. I ask the question what happens if your car breaks down between Abu Dhabi and Dubai?. Call an Indian was the answer. Now the gas is running out. And UAE young people have to work. Another country that wasted their resources.

    74. Republicofscotland says:

      “In the absence of anything from NS other than “profound concern”, let’s hear it on here what an iScotland will do to fill this black hole.”

      Main.

      Let’s see now ah yes independence could’ve help mitigate a lot of uncertainties for Scotland, such as Brexit which has damaged the exports market of Scotland. Energy sell offs by Sturgeon and licence issues by Westminster wouldn’t have happened part of the mitigation could’ve been lower energy prices for Scots.

      Scotland could also have engineered its way back into the EU (EFTA my choice) by now post-Brexit that is opening up that market again. These are just a few of the things that could’ve been done if Scotland has all the levers of power required by a sovereign independent state

    75. John Main says:

      @Dan 7:56

      Lighter components and higher compression ratio might lead to shorter MTBF but happy to be proved wrong.

      Toyed with the idea of getting an MOT exempt vehicle myself, but personally, I like the confidence I get from a professional second opinion after doing safety-critical work. Sure, I feel competent fitting new brake pipes, hoses and calipers, but mistakes are always possible. An MOT should mean it has been checked over.

    76. Merganser says:

      Spanners over Scotland makes a nice change from covid and wars. I have a 20-year-old Volvo. Runs like new. Only 104,000 miles.

      I like the idea of an older road tax free car, but I can see that finishing soon with electric cars going to be taxed soon.

      Toy’d with the idea of buying a horse I saw for sale. Sadly it was for parts only. Failed the emissions test.

    77. Dan says:

      @ John

      FFS, I have done this sort of thing before John, so everything isn’t just bodged together. Been building bespoke motorsport cars and bikes for years along with working on allsorts of road cars, buses, and submarines too.

      #PistonRingsOverScotland

      FYI mass produced engines are woefully unoptimised because they are always machined to err on the safe side of tolerances. So things like squish clearances are always way out from optimum, to the point you can often be losing almost 10% of the fuel / air mix induction charge potential energy every time that cylinder fires (which is 50 times a second in a 4 stroke engine at 6000 rpm) because it isn’t being squished into the combustion chamber whilst also agitating the charge for more efficient and complete combustion.
      This safe machining of components also means compression ratios do not actually correspond to what the factory spec state as they will be lower.
      So both these two aspects alone knock off efficiency and output of an engine, plus mind that the ignition timing is mapped in the ecu from the factory so that the engine can run on the shitest of low grade fuels without pinking or detonating it’s head off.

      My selected components gathered after much study and spanner wielding actually mean the inertial forces and side loadings in the engine are reduced from their usual ratings, because I selected a longer conrod (with the benefits that gives) so I could use a lighter but stronger lower compression height forged piston from a turbo’d engine, that gives a higher compression ratio and much improved squish clearance dimension in my particular naturally aspirated engine.
      And that is a compression ratio that works well with the selected camshaft’s duration, ya ken, the dynamic compression ratio of where in the compression stroke the piston actually is when the intake valve actually closes, as opposed to the static ratio…

      I’m sorry for all the typing folks but this is the difference between folk that actually bother to study and learn stuff. A few weeks back “Brexit”eer John stated he wasn’t aware of the demographics of how folk voted (the young in particular) in the EU Ref, so take what you will from that on his awareness levels, and how much value his political insight and input is worth when it’s coming from someone that doesn’t know that sort of pretty basic stuff.

    78. tamson says:

      I follow James on Twitter, but genuinely can’t remember the last time I actually bothered visiting his blog. Now TBF that’s partly down to a decline in Scottish political polling over recent years, but it’s also down to his irritating writing style, which I can only decribe as “spectrum-ish” (a view reinforced by his continually returning to an argument long after everyone else has moved on).

      Thing is, if he’d simply continued to plough his own path and ignore everything ever said about him (by Wings or anyone else) he’d be far more popular.

    79. Andy Ellis says:

      Toy’d with the idea of buying a horse I saw for sale. Sadly it was for parts only. Failed the emissions test.

      It seems there’s enough horse emission going on BTL already… 🙂

    80. Robert Hughes says:

      Ach well , just back from my local , few drams down the line , n just want to say ……I love you all , aye , even erstwhile * opponents * – Mr Ellis n Mr Main included .

      I don’t doubt – n never have – despite all our – often heated – disagreements , we all share a common goal . You know the one .

      That we argue about how best to realise that goal is , well , ” only natural ” , and a reflection of our mutual desire to see that ambition realised . Fck , we’re Scots ! We’d readily enter an empty hoose simply because we thought it was lacking a fight

      TBH I have no idea how we’re going to get where we want to be – ” the highways jammed with broken heroes , on a last chance power-drive ” ….but , maybe , we need to re-remember what it is we’re striving for – in my mind , to create something better

      Maybe , we need to – un-embarrassedly – allow love to be our guiding principal . EVERYTHING would flow from that

      Anyone got a better idea ?

    81. Geri says:

      Merganser

      Was its name Boxer by any chance?

      No longer required. Got frisky with the Filly’s building the indymill, so they say.

    82. Geri says:

      Aye, drink a pint of water before bed lol

      Aye. Scots like to argue the toss.
      There’s 3 stages.
      1.Try Reason & diplomacy.
      2. Savage yer opponent with scathing insults.
      3. Ask who’s buying the next pint.

    83. Robert Hughes says:

      Geri – lol , i’m half way through that pint of water ( it DEF helps to prevent the hung-under ! ) . Call me * hippy * ( YR A HIPPY , YA BAM ! ) , nonetheless …..? 🙂

    84. Benhope says:

      Robert Hughes 11.17.

      Good thoughts but principle not principal. Doh.

      Pedants rule .

    85. Benhope says:

      Dons win against Dundee United and secure third place over the world cup break.What is there not to like !!!

      Lewis Ferguson scores again for Bologna and now rumoured to be a target for Juventus. Good luck Lewis on your career. Onwards and upwards. Always a Don!!

      Stu, for Dons fans a wee glimmer of some enjoyment.

    86. Andy Ellis says:

      @Robert Hughes 11.17 pm

      I don’t doubt – n never have – despite all our – often heated – disagreements , we all share a common goal . You know the one .

      Sadly Robert that simply isn’t true of many of the usual suspects in here though is it? All too many of the usual suspects in here have an atavistic itch to scratch: not only do they regard those on the other side of the argument as wrong, but as ill intentioned *tractors.

      Folk like myself, John Main, Chas and others are routinely abused as being “not real indy supporters”, not indy supporters AT ALL in fact, or we’re 77th Brigade operatives. Even worse we have prominent figures like Gareth Wardell being so triggered by anyone having the temerity to disagree with them that they think it’s appropriate to use the epithet “English Ellis” as an attack line.

      I don’t give a flying fuck about whether some of the pieces of work who soil below the line comments in here share the same goal as me. They are however still pieces of work. Unlike them, don’t assume anyone who disagrees is working for the other side, or a *tractor.

      I wouldn’t cross the road to piss on most of them if they were on fire, still less campaign next to them, or agree to bury the hatchet and have a pint with them on the basis that “och, it’s just Scots having a stair heid rammie, whit ur we like, ken?”.

      As for allowing ” love” to be our guiding principle, what I’d really love is for Rev Stu to institute a new rule: anyone using the “you’re not a real indy supporter / you’re a yoon plant” line should be perma banned. That would instantly rid the place of some of the nastiest pieces of work, and the most disruptive BTL influences.

    87. PacMan says:

      Republicofscotland @ 12 November, 2022 at 6:22 pm

      Now that Sturgeon the betrayer and her side-kick Liz Lloyd are back from grandstanding in Egypt. The betrayer is back in spouting drivel mode, here the Judas claims she’s worried about how the English Chancellors budget cuts will affect Scotland, as if she gives a toss about Scots.

      That’s unionist talk.

      For some, that may sound like a good way of being moderate, reasonable and show undecideds and no voters to the independence cause to show she is concerned about matters that affect ordinary people but what is different from her response to that of Labour which is exactly the same?

      It’s all very well for Sturgeon complaining about what the Tories are going to do but what alternative is she proposing and what exactly can she do to stop these Tory cuts?

    88. Colin the Keelie says:

      The SNP and other unionists will feel very reassured when Wings Over Scotland and Scot Goes Pop waste their time – and ours- publishing this sort of childish rubbish.

    89. Republicofscotland says:

      Pacman.

      It’s all finger pointing from Sturgeon, look how bad the Tories are, they’re cutting again, they’re interfering in devolved matters, it’s all to get us onside with her and her party.

      The truth is she could’ve and still can get us out of this union, we don’t need permission from a foreign parliament to dissolve the union, (there’s no way out of this union via Westminster) we only need an FM with a wee bit of courage and the drive to fulfill the mandates we’ve given her for years, sadly Sturgeon isn’t that FM.

    90. John Main says:

      @Dan 9:45

      You know much more about practical ICE internals than me, no arguments. That’s valuable knowledge.

      You also know much more than me about how different demographics voted in the Brexit ref. I don’t see the value or relevance TBH. Like most Scots voters I guess, I vote in line with my own interests.

      Here’s a few notions I have picked up over the years:

      1) Everybody knows more than everybody else about at least one subject, that is an axiom.
      2) Knowing more than somebody else about something doesn’t make that somebody else stupid, they may simply be uninformed.
      3) Expertise in one subject rarely transfers to another unrelated subject.

      Finally, the one I like best. Most voters in any democracy are ignorant arseholes, but these arseholes are entitled to be represented just as much as everybody else.

      None of the above is intended in any way as a personal attack, Dan.

    91. Republicofscotland says:

      The (BCS) has plans for Scotland other than cutting two MPs seats from Scotland. This has greatly upset the SNP MPs who are utterly embedded at Westminster. We the indy masses want to see the day there are no Scottish MPs at Westminster, but not so the reps we sent there to engineer out exit from this union.

      I say to the chair Sir Lindsey Hoyle cut away as many Scottish MPs as possible, we have no real say at Westminster anyway, and the less troughers we send to Westminster the easier it should be to exit Westminster in the end.

      “The Boundary Commission for Scotland (BCS) which reviews UK Parliament constituencies for Scotland and which is a creature of the Westminster Parliament. Its chair is the Speaker of the House of Commons.”

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fpolitics%2F23120645.constituency-boundary-changes-defy-local-scottish-history%2F

    92. Colin the Keelie says:

      Andy Ellis

      I agree that discussions should not be conducted along the lines of “you’re 77th Brigade”, “closet-unionist” etc.

      Likewise, I don’t agree with comparisons with Nazi Germany “blood and soil nationalism” if anyone argues the SNP were wrong to allow anyone on the Scottish Electoral Register to vote on Scottish independence, even if the voter was only a temporary or new resident in Scotland so would have been unable to demonstrate Scotland is their permanent place of residence.

    93. Republicofscotland says:

      Like Hyena’s scavenging a carcass (Scotland) foreign energy firms are making a killing at our expense, and the Judas in Bute House is letting them, she is putting their interests before ours.

      “Seagreen Offshore Wind Farm The 1,075MW Seagreen Offshore Wind Farm project is located 27km off the coast of Angus in the North Sea. A £3bn joint venture between TotalEnergies (51%) and SSE Renewables (49%), Seagreen will be Scotland’s largest and the world’s deepest fixed bottom offshore wind farm when complete.”

      “The project promises to generate 1.1 gigawatts of electricity – enough to power about 1m homes – in its first phase. That’s equivalent to about 60% of Scotland’s current offshore wind output.”

      SSE is now owned by the English energy firm OVO.

      Sturgeon is allowing the worlds energy firms to take control of our huge wind and water energy producing markets, just as Westminster did with our oil and gas, we’re being robbed blind all over again.

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fenvironment%2F2022%2Faug%2F23%2Fthrowing-the-switch-on-scotlands-largest-offshore-windfarm

    94. Dan says:

      LOL Got to love Andy’s Sunday morning rant there, and the rather selective group of folk he lists to be perma banned from here. It’s notable that those who repetitively call folk moonhowlers, no marks, skid marks, covidiots, lacking the intellectual height, etc, are for some obscure reason exempt from being perma banned…

    95. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Dan (11.13) –

      It’s exactly what happened last time Rev issued a warning about personal attacks.

      He feigns indignance at some random remark, lets rips at imagined enemies *as a group* then waits for a response. Then he targets whichever individual responded. Before we know it the thread’s full of ‘moonhowlers’, dogs returning to their own vomit etc.

      He’s good at it. The only solution is to ignore him.

    96. PacMan says:

      Republicofscotland says: 13 November, 2022 at 10:11 am

      It’s all finger pointing from Sturgeon, look how bad the Tories are, they’re cutting again, they’re interfering in devolved matters, it’s all to get us onside with her and her party.

      The truth is she could’ve and still can get us out of this union, we don’t need permission from a foreign parliament to dissolve the union, (there’s no way out of this union via Westminster) we only need an FM with a wee bit of courage and the drive to fulfill the mandates we’ve given her for years, sadly Sturgeon isn’t that FM.

      Indeed.

      While it is constantly mentioned on this forum that Sturgeon is getting the selfies in to get her job at the UN or some cushy non job at some American progressive university, it does feel that she is virtue signalling to the Islignton champagne socialist set.

      It does feel that she is more interested in maintaining her Westminster contingent and showing both to the unionist electorate here and the Westminster establishment that she is more than happy to work within the system that is financially beneficial both to her and her party.

      I’m genuinely surprised she hasn’t yet softened up the SNP membership to allow SNP members to sit in the House of Lords, to allow Scotland to have a bigger say in matters that affect them, of course.

      I know I am being cynical here but Sturgeon needs a job after she leaves Bute House so in her shoes, she can’t be picky and anything will do, even if it is inside the British establishment or one of the non-jobs ex Westminster government Ministers and Prime Ministers seem to be able to get in the private sector.

    97. PacMan says:

      Ian Brotherhood says: 13 November, 2022 at 11:30 am

      @Dan (11.13) –

      It’s exactly what happened last time Rev issued a warning about personal attacks.

      He feigns indignance at some random remark, lets rips at imagined enemies *as a group* then waits for a response. Then he targets whichever individual responded. Before we know it the thread’s full of ‘moonhowlers’, dogs returning to their own vomit etc.

      He’s good at it. The only solution is to ignore him.

      Yeah, he’s expert at the passive-aggressive baiting.

      I ignore him and so should everybody else.

    98. Dan says:

      John Main says: at 10:19 am

      You know much more about practical ICE internals than me, no arguments. That’s valuable knowledge.

      You also know much more than me about how different demographics voted in the Brexit ref. I don’t see the value or relevance TBH. Like most Scots voters I guess, I vote in line with my own interests.

      Here’s a few notions I have picked up over the years:

      1) Everybody knows more than everybody else about at least one subject, that is an axiom.
      2) Knowing more than somebody else about something doesn’t make that somebody else stupid, they may simply be uninformed.
      3) Expertise in one subject rarely transfers to another unrelated subject.

      Finally, the one I like best. Most voters in any democracy are ignorant arseholes, but these arseholes are entitled to be represented just as much as everybody else.

      It’s fairly obvious for 1 and 2 that that would be the case John. That’s why folk specialise in certain subject matter and jobs.
      But for 3 I’m not sure that is the case, because the type of people that have the abilities to study and comprehend data analysis, processes, efficiency, etc, from one particular system, can also use that skillset to cross over to other areas.

      The problem we all appear to have is that clearly there are people in positions of influence and power that appear to lack the insight and critical faculties required to make informed decisions for us. Look at the ridiculous ferry situation, look at the pushing of the genderwoo, look at the focus on virtue-signalling distractions rather than concentrating on managing the basics in a competent manner.

      With regard to people being ignorant, well that is why I try to have interactions with folk, so I can try to increase their comprehension on matters I do actually have a bit of knowledge.
      Of course, some times this is difficult with just written words on a screen, and people’s defensive mode kicks when their world view is challenged.

    99. PacMan says:

      With the current debate on Scotland’s energy production, the issue of transmission charges seems to have died down a bit.

      https://fraserofallander.org/electricity-generation-and-transmission-charges/

      If a generator is near a large centre of demand then they will pay less because they are using the transmission system less. Whereas generators in locations with excess supply will pay more because they use the transmission system more.

      Scotland is a net exporter of electricity to the rest of the UK, so Longannet’s output was partly exported and had to use the transmission system to access demand in the rest of the UK, with associated high transmission charges. On the other hand, the London Array wind farm for example, has a shorter distance to transmit, with associated lower charges.

      Longannet faced a generation tariff of £18.02/kW in 2014/15, whereas London Array’s tariff was £1.43/kW.

      Scotland as mentioned is a net energy exporter and we can help meet the energy needs for the rest of the UK if it wasn’t for these transmission charges.

      Given the current energy crises where we are being softened up for potential blackouts in the months to come, it is madness that we have such a system.

    100. Ruby says:

      https://archive.ph/tSdv1

      Scottish hospitals warned over not allowing men into women’s wards

      Why don’t they rename the ward’s ‘Womb Havers’ wards?

      Sorted!

      OK so some women have had a hysterectomy but that’s easily fixed.
      Once a womb haver always a womb haver.

      I changed the headline a little. I think mine is better.

    101. James Che says:

      Republicofscotland.

      There are no Scottish parliament representative MPs in Westminster parliament…ie SNP.

      The Scottish parliament extinguished itself in 1707 when it agreed to join the treaty of union.

      The Devolved government in Scotland is a Westminster parliament legislated government. And is taken an oath to the Crown.

      So no Scottish parliament representatives in UK parliament.

    102. James Che says:

      Republicofscotland.

      A extinguished Scottish parliament of 1707 did not enter the the British parliament.

    103. Ruby says:

      https://archive.ph/Uaaag

      “Hospital says patient could not have been raped because alleged attacker was a woman!”

      Only men can rape and there were no men on the ward!

      Could it be people don’t take these things seriously because it all sounds like a joke?

    104. Rab Davis says:

      Dan

      You’re on first name terms with that prick “JM”.

      He’s that other mouthy prick’s “Alter Ego”.

      FFS!!!

    105. Robert Dickson says:

      I put a polite reply in his blog comments section.
      Guess how surprised I was that he decided not to publish it?
      He’s a petty wee man.

    106. Dan says:

      @ Republicofscotland at 10:50 am

      As you know I’ve been regularly been posting links to stats showing the electricity generated in Scotland’s geographic area being exported down to England and sometimes beyond to France.
      And that is with the current generation we have. This text you quote in your comment I have bolded. The 60% of current offshore wind generation caught my eye.

      Seagreen Offshore Wind Farm The 1,075MW Seagreen Offshore Wind Farm project is located 27km off the coast of Angus in the North Sea. A £3bn joint venture between TotalEnergies (51%) and SSE Renewables (49%), Seagreen will be Scotland’s largest and the world’s deepest fixed bottom offshore wind farm when complete.”

      The project promises to generate 1.1 gigawatts of electricity – enough to power about 1m homes – in its first phase. That’s equivalent to about 60% of Scotland’s current offshore wind output.

      to get some scale to the generation potential in Scotland’s geographic area, look at this page linked to below and scroll down to the map of Scotland showing the various grid blocks that have recently been auctioned off, then click on each block, you can see that 1GW in the scheme of things is a very small amount compared to what will soon be generated from all the auctioned off blocks.
      Plus worth keeping in mind last week the 2.6GW figure for the Ossian field (further offshore from Dundee in shape of inverted Y was now forecast to potentially generate more than a third more than what it was initially surveyed to produce. So just that increase for Ossian field being more than 1GW is according to that quoted text equivalent to 60% of current offshore generation.

      https://www.crownestatescotland.com/our-projects/scotwind

    107. Rab Davis says:

      The SNP has been fucked since Sturgeon moved in.

      Wings has been fucked since the “Three Names” moved in.

      All sent to carry out specific tasks, to fuck up the flow of information regarding Scottish Independence.

      Are they succeeding,,, you decide.

    108. Andy Ellis says:

      @Robert Dickson

      I put a polite reply in his blog comments section.
      Guess how surprised I was that he decided not to publish it?
      He’s a petty wee man.

      I’ve no time for Scot Goes Pop or James Kelly, and seem to recall he blocked me on twitter before my account got suspended by the Tranish Inquisition, but he’s not alone in deleting comments from those with the temerity of disagreeing with him and banning them from further comment.

      Iain Lawson does much the same, as demonstrated when he deleted comments by both Rev Stu and me when we disagreed with the nativism / franchise limitation schtick. Like many other bloggers they have egos a mile wide and the thickness of graphene.

    109. James Che says:

      When all the pleading and begging of Scotland’s people has been denied in Westminster parliament and the supreme Court down south.

      When stipulations are placed on Scottish referendums, from once in a life time to the goal posts moving in what is considered the benchmark for a majority. To changing the voting demographics to loose Angus district votes for Sccottish plebisite elections by Westminster,

      We can see the manipulations of the Uk parliament ensuring Scotland never has a voice.
      When you add the SNPs deliberate wasting of Scottish votes giving them ample mandates.
      And their lack of preparations for a independent Scotland.

      Getting out of the treaty of union by needing a majority vote has no comparison to entering the treaty of union three hundred years ago, when no vote was asked of Scots or given by the people of Scotland to enter the treaty of the union.
      This legally looks like Scotland is a Colony rather than democratic participant in a treaty of union

      With Scotland and its people being hog tied hands and feet three hundred years later at every turn at this end of the treaty of union in 2022.

      Sooner or later the people of Scotland will ask questions like if the beginning of the treaty of union is so tightly bound.
      Because hope will not die.

    110. John Main says:

      @Rab Davis says:13 November, 2022 at 12:21 pm

      John Main says (adopting Stewie voice):

      “Here we go!”

      Re your other post at 12:43, Rab.

      I guess me posting the above has now fucked up Wings for the day?

    111. Republicofscotland says:

      Dan @12.41pm.

      Thanks for the link Dan, scrolled down and saw the current and under development wind farms, it’s a pity that Scotland/Scots will benefit very little from its vast wind resources thanks to this SNP government under Sturgeon.

    112. Andy Ellis says:

      @John Main 2.10 pm

      But wait…we’re the same person remember!

      It must be true if the moonhowlers really, really believe it right?

      Actually, that’d be another good addition to Stuey’s ban list: insisting that other contributors have multiple accounts. 🙂

    113. Republicofscotland says:

      “The Scottish parliament extinguished itself in 1707 when it agreed to join the treaty of union.”

      James Che 12.05/12.08

      Agreed James, although on the above I say suspended not extinguished.

    114. Ebok says:

      ‘Could it be people don’t take these things seriously because it all sounds like a joke?’

      No laughing matter, Ruby. But we must wait to see if the rebels will do the right thing again and hopefully, increase the numbers rebelling.

      This Scot-admin team have set out their stall, stifling debate – 2 days – and presumably throwing out most of the 150 odd amendments.
      Even if the rebels stay the course, however, the bill will pass: the question is whether it will be watered down to the point it is ineffectual.
      If not, and getting back to the quote above, Sturgeon will effectively need support from not only Greens, but Slab too, to run HR, and that does sound like a joke.

      It remains to be seen if there is a genuine split in NSNP and the GRR bill is the catalyst for wider concerns and rebellion.

    115. Republicofscotland says:

      Pacman. 11.37am.

      There’s much truth in that, and Craig Murray has an excellent article which shows that parties such as the SNP, Labour and the Tories, don’t actually want or need a big membership, the likes of Short Money and corporate donations along with other ways in which they raise revenue means that the only time they need us is at election times, very little door to door work is carried out, targeted voting and the corporate media are now they ways in which the main parties get you to vote for them.

      The SNP under Sturgeon doesn’t want a membership that wants to have a say in which direction the party should go.

      https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2022/10/the-party-is-over/

    116. Andy Ellis says:

      @Ebok

      It remains to be seen if there is a genuine split in NSNP and the GRR bill is the catalyst for wider concerns and rebellion.

      Wouldn’t we know by now? Even if they don’t have a huge amount of support within the party, Sturgeon’s majority is wafer thin. All it needs is a handful of MSPs to demand a meeting with her and hold a political gun to her head and insist theTRA extremism is ditched and that those monstering Joanna Cherry and others for their beliefs are disciplined and ejected, and that moves be made to secure a plebiscitary election at Holyrood immediately if the SC case goes against the Scottish government.

      The fact that hasn’t happened, and shows no sign of happening, suggests they lack either the political cojones or the support to do: possibly both.

      If we can’t rely on the SNP to reform itself, the only plausible alternative is to remove them, or ensure they are dependent on a “real” independence party for their majority, one which can ensure they prioritise actually attaining independence rather than clinging on to devolutionary power for however long it takes them to be convinced they are absolutely certain of victory at some indeterminate point in the future.

    117. James Che says:

      Republicofscotland.

      There is a difference between What Scotland did and what England did with the 1707 Scottish parliament that must not misconstrued.

      The Scottish parliament ” Sine Die” in Scotland, in Scots law. Prior to any official British parliant official opening, meaning we are able to reconvened in Scotland.

      However the English parliament claims it cancelled or extinguished the Scottish parliament in England when it asked Scotland to agree to the treaty of the union,
      Under the laws of Scotland then and now we have a suspended parliament in Scotland.

      There in England’s parliament of Westminster is the English parliament on its own.

      They Cancelled the Scottish parliament by requiring a treaty agreement to the treaty of the union, they stopped the 1707 Scottish parliament from joining the new 1707 British parliament before it had officially opened and completed the course of the treaty of the union,

    118. Republicofscotland says:

      Sturgeon the betrayer of Scots useless Health secretary Humza Yousaf hinting that he wants the scraps from Sunak’s table, when independence would have, and still will give us access to the whole feast.

      The finger pointing by Sturgeon’s puppet at Westminster is typical of head turning, saying look here, not there, it’s all Westminster’s fault that our services are collapsing, and our public workers are striking because of what London has done.

      That is all bollocks we are in the state we’re in because Sturgeon betrayed us and didn’t deliver independence which would’ve, and still can, open up all the levers of government that a country needs to be a success, as well as opening up all the doors to its assets of which Scotland has many.

      Don’t be fooled by Sturgeon and her spineless and gutless ministers and MSPs/MPs, Scotland is in the mess it’s in because of what Sturgeon the Judas has done which is to deliberately fail to obtain independence.

      “THE UK Government has a “moral obligation” to provide extra cash to fund pay deals for nurses and avert NHS strikes, the Scottish Health Secretary has said.”

      “Although he insisted incoming strikes by members of the Royal College of Nursing (RCN), the first in the union’s 106-year history, are “not inevitable”, Humza Yousaf told the BBC: “I don’t have more money.”

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/23121406.uk-moral-obligation-fund-nhs-pay-rises-says-humza-yousaf/

    119. Alf Baird says:

      Confused @ 3:03 pm

      “Pat Kane is a “thought leader” ”

      Yes, much like the daeless SNP elite, erstwhile ‘intellectuals’ who are supposedly pro-independence such as Pat Kane and others (Mike Small, Gerry Hassan etc) first need to give some thought to what independence means (it is decolonization) and why it is necessary (liberation from oppression):

      https://cpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/wp.towson.edu/dist/b/55/files/2022/05/The-Socio-Political-Determinants-of-Scottish-Independence.pdf

    120. Republicofscotland says:

      “However the English parliament claims it cancelled or extinguished the Scottish parliament in England when it asked Scotland to agree to the treaty of the union,”

      James

      I’m not 100% sure James, but I’m under the impression that the UK parliament was a completely different construct, and that the sine die (adjourning) of the Scottish parliament didn’t extinguish our own parliament they merely created a new one.

      Have a watch of this James (The Biggest Lie) its shows that Westminster isn’t even a legitimate parliament.

      I’ve split the link because sometimes they don’t work just add them together.

      http://www.youtube.com

      /watch?v=RhpSbjtsG_o

    121. Ebok says:

      ‘If we can’t rely on the SNP to reform itself, the only plausible alternative is to remove them’
      Andy Ellis.

      I’m pulling my hair out here! For a lackwit like me to have to explain, for the umpteenth time, to one as ostensibly intelligent as you, is just about making me swear.

      There is NO mechanism to remove NSNP for more four years, other than if they self-destruct: that means internal warfare.

      As support for NSNP diminishes, AND EVEN IF ALL THAT SUPPORT TRANSFERRED TO ALBA, which we KNOW is not happening, then during that transfer of support, the split Indy vote will result in the UNIONIST HOOVERING UP SEATS.

      There is a real danger of the big-time loser in all this being the YES movement, of voters GIVING SLAB ANOTHER CHANCE, and erstwhile supporters putting Independence on the back burner.
      We are in critical times for the movement and that is why I say that the route to Indy 2 must be by uniting, being apolitical, getting onto the streets, and demanding they do what they were bloody well elected to do.

    122. Republicofscotland says:

      Y’know I have to agree with Craig Murray here, that Sturgeon has a cult following, and that no matter what she gets wrong (and there’s plenty that’s wrong) her cult following will never blame her for anything.

      It’s not just the cult members on the street, in my opinion her elected MPs and MSPs are also part of this cult, for how else could they stand by for years and watch the cult leader slowly and systematically rundown Scotland’s important services without standing up to her and then finding a way to replace her, even the vile Tories know when to remove a defective leader, what does that say about the SNPs MPs and MSP that they’ve done nothing.

      Yet the SNPs MPs and MSPs have backed the cult leader at every turn even going beyond the call of duty by attacking a real independence party in the form of Alba.

      https://twitter.com/CraigMurrayOrg/status/1591393904674627584?cxt=HHwWgIDTneSU4pUsAAAA

    123. Andy Ellis says:

      @Ebok

      Calm doon. The Scottish people in their wisdom voted these neds in. If they are content to wait until the next election – whenever that might be – then so be it. The future isn’t ours to see: for all we know there might be an early election either at Holyrood or Westminster. Even if either or both happen as schedules however, it means the only *real* alternative is a palace coup of some kind within the SNP by it’s membership and/or leaders if and when they realise Sturgeon and her cabal are a liability.

      I wouldn’t bet the farm on that given the supine attitude of the lumpen SNP membership thus far, but I suppose it’s not impossible, particularly if we see the SC find against the SG in the next few months, no #indyref2 in 2023 as promised, and no moves towards precipitating early plebiscitary elections.

      Sturgeon might get away with kicking the can down the road again and assuring her loyalist cadres that she really, REALLY means it this time, and that the next election will be a plebiscite. We’ve all seen how self delusional they are, and like it or not there is no plausible way for the movement as a whole to force the SNP membership and leadership to do what they want them to do.

      It’s a shite situation to be in right enough, but if you have a better way out let’s hear it. Unless it’s “cunning plans”, petitions and unelected bodies declaring 300 year old treaties deid of course….’cos that’s just unicorns and rainbows for the credulous “WAH, Scotland is a puir wee colony: why are the bad menz being bad to us” types.

    124. Republicofscotland says:

      “There is NO mechanism to remove NSNP for more four years, other than if they self-destruct: that means internal warfare.”

      Ebok.

      Correct me if I’m wrong, but there was no mechanism for the Tories to remove PM Liz Truss before one year of her tenure, but they did remove her. We can’t remove the entire SNP party, but could we remove Sturgeon.

      As the saying goes where there’s a will there’s a way.

      I know that SNP MSPs and MPs had to sign something that said they wouldn’t speak badly of other SNP MSPs or MPs, and that no MSP or MP can give an interview without the hierarchy okaying it.

      It would appear that Sturgeon has the cultish powers over the SNP that David Miscavige has over the Church of Scientology.

      In hindsight all that Sturgeon the betrayer has done since her tenure to keep us in this vile union, and what she has done to the indy movement as well, as her SNP MSPs and MPs stood by and watched but said nothing, it’s very unlikely that they’ll grow a conscience and a backbone now and enact some way to remove the Judas from office.

      No, I think we’ll need to wait until 2026, and hope that that enough indy minded folk vote for the Alba party and not the SNP cult.

    125. James Che says:

      Republicofscotland.

      The statement that the Scottish parliament is extinguished……is not mine.

      The statement is the UK parliaments on their site 2022.

      Construct of Westminster is secondary to the fact that they proclaim by statement for all to see, home and abroad, there is no Scottish parliament joined with England in a treaty in the British parliament.

    126. Breeks says:

      Remember when the UK Supreme Court ruled that Boris Johnston was abusing process to prorogue Parliament, and consequently it ruled Westminster had never been prorogued?

      I think the same would be true if Holyrood was impeached on Constitutional grounds, for example; Sturgeon’s capitulation to Brexit, – which was a brazen violation of Scotland’s constitutional sovereignty and The Claim of Right.

      If Holyrood was impeached, I believe the effect would be there was no Holyrood, no Scottish “government”, no station of First Minister; none at least that had ANY constitutional status or standing in law.

      Sara Salyers talked about “sacking” the Government in her first ALBA speech, and if we need Sturgeon’s nuSNP out of the way, then I believe Impeachment would be the most expedient way to do it.

      Truth be told, I actually think if there was a formal impeachment proceeding simply instigated, just like in 1689 when a Convention of Estates set about removing James VII from his throne, (impeachment by another word), I believe Holyrood would “magically” rediscover it’s constitutional obligations to the sovereign Scottish people. …But it would be too late.

      It would have to engage with the impreachment, otherwise, Westminster without Holyrood would no longer be holding the constitutional tiger by the tail. Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty set loose in the hands of a Convention of the Estates, would be free and unchecked, and patently in outright sovereign ascendancy.

      Use the Claim of Right to impeach and depose Sturgeon for overruling the will of Scotland’s sovereign community of the Realm and capitulating to Scotland’s unconstitutional Brexit, and in that instant, the UK Union enters the irreconcilable constitutional crisis which it should have entered in 2016.

      Do it, and Scottish Independence is back in the palm of our hands with International Law on our side…

    127. Scott says:

      Dear Andy Ellis,

      If The Scottish Ministers resign, the chamber will have the opperchancity to elect a new First Minister. If it fails to do so, the Presiding Officer will call for a General Election.

      Where does the ability to declare said election as plebiscitary come from?

      It can be SNP policy all it wants, but few will vote for candidates on a single issue, other than the banana brained ‘both votes’ brigade. There’s 1m+ of them. Even then, the lack of a supermajority such a strategy brings proves it to be a symbolic wish for somme and a handy carrot for others.

      Step away from the carrots…etc.

    128. Merganser says:

      Republic @ 3.39 says: ‘as her SNP MSPs and MPs stood by and watched and said nothing’.

      Exactly. It is a forlorn hope to think that action will come from within to bring Sturgeon’s reign to an end. They would have done it long before now if they had the inclination. Too happy to take the money, and too like the Tories with their lack of principles.

      They stand or fall together. Unless a way is found to expose what Sturgeon and her mates did in the Salmond affair, and how the rest all stood idly by when they knew the truth of it, then Scotland seems doomed to carry on as now. Securely under the thumb of Westminster.

      The truth will out one day. I hope it won’t be too late when that day arrives.

    129. James Che says:

      Republicofscotland.

      Englands Westminster as a parliament believes that in England in their view there is no longer a Scottish parliament since 1707.

      Hence ( WE ) cannot be in the British parliament from that date onwards. Nor can we have representatives in the British/UK parliament since 1707. Like the SNP.

      Way up there with that logic from the UK parliament site is the question, what we do have in Scotland?

      We have the UK Westminster legislating a devolved parliament to Scotland, we can’t claim the re-opening of the Scottish parliament, as it is a Westminster construction, not Scottish.

      Where is the Present Scottish (non) devolved Parliament in Scotland that we chose or choose our representatives from then since 1707?

      The Scottish 1707 parliament was extinguished in the eyes of the UK parliament before the Scottish parliament could enter the British parliament.

      The EU also recommended a devolved government to Scotland and Wales so they had representation in the UK Parliament.

      In Scotland under Scots Law, and the sovereignty of Scots prior to the official opening of the British parliament, Scotland SINE DIE’d it own parliament.

      Between the 1707/Scottish parliament voluntary closing its doors in Scotland under Scots law of sine die, ( prior) to entering the British parliament and the english parliament stating that by ( agreeing) to the treaty of union the Scots extinguished there own parliament, there arises many questions as to wether the Scottish parliament resides in the British parliament in any form whatsoever

      If Westminster UK parliament consider and state ( as they do) there has been no active Scottish parliament since 1707 What is the foundation or constructed entity of the UK parliament?

      For the British UK parliament to exist from 1707 to present day it has to state and recognise the original Scottish parliament of 1707 still exists in Scotland today as a active participant to the Treaty of the union,

      And it would and should be from that parliament Scots would elect their representation from,

      Other wise there is no active treaty of union between the Scottish Parliament 1707, and the English parliament 1706.
      As no active representatives of Scots parliament from the1707 Scottish parliament in The British/ UK parliament which signed the treaty of union.

      The UK parliament can not have its cake and eat it,

      Either the Scottish parliament is not extinguished by the treaty of the union and is still active for the last three hundred years and is legal today. Should we decide to reconvene.

      Or there has been no treaty of union of the two parliaments since 1707.

    130. Ebok says:

      You are probably right, RoS, but so much will happen in the next 4 years, there’s no telling where we are heading.
      4 years ago, May was PM, Trump was 2years in post, Brexit negotiations were vongoing, plague 15 months away, no HCB, no GRR, 16 months before AS stitch-up trial, and we are now just 4 days short of the fourth anniversary of the gilets jaune movement.

      That’s why I hope folks will waken up tomorrow, or next week, or next month, and leaders will step forward and DO something to lead the whole of the Scottish electorate, not just in the independence campaign, but also in protest at those responsible for the self-inflicted destruction of Scotland that is happening before our eyes.

      All this was put in context, though, a short while ago when listening on playback to a report of a Scots mother who had to resort to GoFundMe to raise funds to pay the 17K energy bill to keep her daughter alive. No Scot-admin help, though they and GCC found that amount for their useless jolly to Egypt.
      And I guess the report was only newsworthy because Kate Winslet donated the full amount.

      I despair.

    131. Alf Baird says:

      Breeks @ 4:07 pm

      “Do it, and Scottish Independence is back in the palm of our hands with International Law on our side…”

      Sometimes the simplest options are the best, and often staring us in the face too. Aye, Scotland has a constitution and must use it, as Salvo maintain:

      https://salvo.scot/the-scottish-constitution-and-the-constitutional-compact/

      Scots language version
      https://salvo.scot/the-scottis-constitutional-covin/

    132. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Breeks –

      Just in case you didn’t see it, Crossgate Centre tweeted screenshot of your 4.07 comment.

      😉

      https://twitter.com/CrossgateCentre/status/1591840613724729344

    133. Andy Ellis says:

      Where does the ability to declare said election as plebiscitary come from?

      From the pro-independence parties announcing beforehand that a vote for them was an automatic vote for independence. It doesn’t matter whether parties are standing as single issue parties, or have a full platform. The pitch is simple: if when all the votes are counted, 50% + 1 have voted for parties with a plebiscitary platform, we have de facto achieved independence. All that’s left then is to negotiate the details.

      It’s certainly a lot more likely to work – and be recognised – than cunning plans for indy, Conventions of the Estates and other such legal fripperies that appear to give some in here such a hard on.

    134. Breeks says:

      Ian Brotherhood says:
      13 November, 2022 at 7:41 pm

      @Breeks –

      Just in case you didn’t see it, Crossgate Centre tweeted screenshot of your 4.07 comment.

      Oh my!… That’s the first time I’ve ever seen myself quoted on Twitter.. lol.

      Thanks for pointing it out.

    135. Scott says:

      Andy Ellis says:
      13 November, 2022 at 7:53 pm

      Where does the ability to declare said election as plebiscitary come from?

      From the pro-independence parties announcing beforehand that a vote for them was an automatic vote for independence. It doesn’t matter whether parties are standing as single issue parties, or have a full platform. The pitch is simple: if when all the votes are counted, 50% + 1 have voted for parties with a plebiscitary platform, we have de facto achieved independence. All that’s left then is to negotiate the details.

      —-

      Well that’s not right, is it?

      Scotland Act requires a supermajority in favour of such things.

      Votes in favour of candidates not elected won’t be carried forward into the chamber.

      What happens if elected FM isn’t in favour of independence?

      Holyrood isn’t first past the post in meaningful way until after all members are chosen. ie PO & FM positions.

      We don’t elect the Scottish Government, and never have.

      We don’t elect the First Minister, and never have.

      There will be no plebiscitary election, de-facto or otherwise. Not now, tomorrow or any day after.

      Stop pinning your hopes on an impossible dream.

      yw,hth

    136. Andy Ellis says:

      Even then, the lack of a supermajority such a strategy brings proves it to be a symbolic wish for somme and a handy carrot for others.

      Scotland Act requires a supermajority in favour of such things.

      There is no super majority requirement in Holyrood in the event that no candidate for FM can command a majority. The Presiding Officer is under a legal obligation to call fresh elections within a couple of weeks. The supermajority requirement applies when parliament itself votes for new elections. Tricia Marwick confirmed as much when this was discussed previously.

      Between “Scott” and the former PO guess who most people are going to think is right.

      There can be a plebiscitary election if:

      a) Sturgeon provokes them by standing down and ensuring (using the SNP/Green) majority that no other candidate commands a majority. The PO is then legally obliged to call fresh elections. Those elections are then designated as plebiscitary.

      b) Given that Sturgeon lacks the political balls to do that even when the SC says “no”, the next plausible route is simply for pro-indy parties to affirm that a vote for them is automatically considered plebiscitary.

      This really isn’t rocket science. Except for you apparently. Who knows why? You patently don’t know what you’re talking about, or were asleep when it was discussed before.

      yw, hth

    137. Scott says:

      Andy Ellis says:
      13 November, 2022 at 8:53 pm

      Even then, the lack of a supermajority such a strategy brings proves it to be a symbolic wish for some and a handy carrot for others.

      Scotland Act requires a supermajority in favour of such things.

      There is no super majority requirement in Holyrood in the event that no candidate for FM can command a majority.

      I never said there was, only for negotiations on independence and other so-called reserved matters.

      You tried this specific line the last time I poked holes in your plebiscitary election strategy. [Not totally sure why you placed two quotes from separate comments in your response…]

      If someone is proposed as FM, you think SNP/Greens will allow them to be elected unopposed? That person could offer seats to anyone from any party as a form of ‘new deal for devolution’ – or working as the Scotland Act intended it to, as I like to call it.

      Plebiscitary elections are a non-starter, please stop promoting the idea.

      Petition, referendum, court of law.

      There’s the 3 routes out.

    138. Andy Ellis says:

      [Not totally sure why you placed two quotes from separate comments in your response…]

      Because I was losing patience with your stupidity.

      Independence is as likely to come via petition, referendum, court of law as Nicola is to be hit by a meteorite. It’s unicorns and rainbows stuff.

      The SNP/Greens have a majority. They can block any other candidate for FM. What part of this don’t you understand, and why? You couldn’t poke holes in a wet paper bag.

      The PO has no discretion. If no FM is able to command a majority they are legally obliged to call new elections. However frantically you dance on the head on the had of your pin, you remain wrong.

      Like all the other “cunning plans for indy” moonhowlers, your earnest belief in constitutional and legal unicorns and shortcuts to indy doesn’t make them real.

    139. Merganser says:

      Andy Ellis @ 8.53 says:

      ‘The next plausible route is simply for pro-indy parties to affirm that a vote for them is automatically considered plebiscitary’.

      Sturgeon will never stand down. I agree with you on that point.

      How would parties ‘affirm’ this, and to whom would they make the affirmation? Can you cite any authority for the validity of such a course of action?

      Do you think that Westminster will automatically consider the vote plebiscitary. If they don’t, what is the next step?

      Given that the SNP have already stated publicly on the 29th June the following:

      ‘A successful outcome (of a plebiscitary election) will not lead to a declaration of independence. There is no route to independence that does not involve the agreement of the UK Gov.’

      how does your proposal have any effect?

    140. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Ellis, at 9.35 –

      ‘Like all the other “cunning plans for indy” moonhowlers, your earnest belief in constitutional and legal unicorns and shortcuts to indy doesn’t make them real.’

      Here we go again.

      This time it happens to be Scott who provided the ‘in’ but to be fair, it could’ve been any of us. Now that he’s managed to squeeze in one ‘moonhowler’ he’ll deploy the full arsenal of insults.

      It’s Groundhog Day from Hell btl innit…

      🙁

    141. Scott says:

      Dear Andy Ellis,

      I’ll ask again, what happens if Douglas Ross is proposed as FM?

      SNP/Greens cannot stop him being elected unopposed, can they? [No is the answer]

      SNP would stand candidate because…

      He would be free to offer a cabinet post to any member he chose to.

      Until that process is complete…nobody knows which way or t’other the chamber will proceed when it comes to legislation.

      But sure, plebiscitary elections are a shoo-in. [Only in your eyes and those of the Nictator, which is hardly representative of much]

      But, just supposing the both of you aren’t totally wrong on the subject…The franchise for such elections would be subject to challenge in CoS, which would just say ‘manifesto pledges aren’t binding contracts, merely bait thrown by those hawking for their slice of the gravy – what this case tries, is to conflate a referendum franchise with General Election, which serve different purposes entirely’

      Yours in stupidty etc..

    142. Andy Ellis says:

      How would parties ‘affirm’ this, and to whom would they make the affirmation? Can you cite any authority for the validity of such a course of action?

      I don’t see why folk seem to be determined to make such a big issue of how elections are declared and accepted as plebiscitary by “the movement”. Of course I’m not saying it’ll happen. I have no crystal ball. The future isn’t ours to see. We don’t need authority for the validity. Our political parties just say: “A vote for SNP/ Greens /Alba is a de facto vote for independence”.

      The SNP are simply wrong to insert an unnecessary second bite at the cherry. Independence happens when 50% + 1 vote for it in a plebiscitary election, just as it would have done if the same number had voted for it in indyref1 in 2014.

      We don’t need a confirmatory referendum, or a second vote, or to call a Constituent Assembly to validate it. We just need to start negotiating the divorce.

      My proposal is that the SNP do one. They are not the movement, and should not be allowed to pretend that what that say goes.

    143. Ruby says:

      https://archive.ph/ZYZ8f

      Kevin McKenna
      1) Pete Wishart: The MP for Perth and North Perthshire is known throughout the independence movement by the affectionate nickname ‘Slippers’. This does not refer to his fondness for the stalwart leisure footwear. Rather it denotes a fondness for the easy life at Westminster without having actually contributed anything meaningful to the cause he’s supposed to represent.

      Pete’s chucked his slippers out of the pram. 🙂

      Pete Wishart @PeteWishart
      What a pathetic husk of a one time almost credible journalist. Now reduced to trading in childish Alba insults. Don’t worry @kmckenna63 your new audience of Alba, Salvo and the rest of the 0.7% will all be lapping it up.

    144. Andy Ellis says:

      I’ll ask again, what happens if Douglas Ross is proposed as FM?

      He doesn’t become FM, because he won’t be able to command a majority. The Po is then obliged…seeing a pattern here champ?

      The CoS wouldn’t interfere in the franchise for elections. You’re delusional and reaching way beyond your (already proven) limited understanding. If anything, it is LESS likely that a plebiscitary election would be subject to legal challenges than a referendum. It matters not a fig whether parties stand on a single issue of independence, or on a full platform but say before hand they’ll use any mandate given to them as plebiscitary.

    145. Merganser says:

      Andy Ellis @ 10.01.

      The SNP aren’t about to ‘do one’ though.

      They are likely to declare the next election a plebiscitary one. It could well result in a ‘No’ answer so nothing would be achieved other than to put them back in power for another comfortable term and put back independence for years.

      If the ‘Yes’ vote wins, the SNP have nailed their colours to the mast and will do nothing more than ask for another s.30 which will be refused.

      Either way they will have escaped scrutiny of their disastrous policies

      They have this sewn up. The only answer is to get rid of them. I’ve given my views on what could bring this about.

      In the meantime, a plebiscitary election is the worst possible option for Scotland. It gets us nowhere.

    146. Scott says:

      Andy Ellis says:
      13 November, 2022 at 10:06 pm

      I’ll ask again, what happens if Douglas Ross is proposed as FM?

      He doesn’t become FM, because he won’t be able to command a majority. The Po is then obliged…seeing a pattern here champ?

      If nobody stands against him, he becomes FM by default.

      He’d then offer cabinet positions to any member – snp/green/labour/libdem/tories

      Who knows what legislation will be introduced – declaring that someone won’t command a majority is purely guesswork and pointless.

      The pattern I see is you being wilfully obtuse.

      Throw a hissy fit all you want, but you aren’t right about the route to a plebiscitary election. Maybe if someone introduced a Bill to that effect it might get the approval of the chamber, but unlikely to reach the supermajority threshold needed for the PO to tell the King or FM to rubber-stamp it.

      Enjoy the rest of your morning.

    147. Confused says:

      cheers, DorothyD/AlfB and ottomanboi

      I meant to add “Hue and Cry were fucking shite” as well. Who wants to bother with third-rate white-boy-soul when you can just listen to Otis Redding and Al Green.

      That whole article is worth a close read, it is full of eyebrowraisers when you step back to think “so, what does that mean, in practice”. The book was by some silly woman who writes for the guardian, so it is exactly as you would expect.

    148. Hatuey says:

      Good to see Kevin McKenna telling it like it is, and Wishart clearly raging. Everything the SNP scumbags are doing depends on journalists and people with influence keeping tight-lipped.

      There’s so much crap floating around in Scottish politics, blinding us all to what matters most, but I sense that things are changing. The air feels charged.

      From clouds of dirt and crap like this stars are born.

      Nation-states are like stars when you think about it, formed by the force of political gravity which takes all the bad feeling and negativity and turns it into something useful.

      It’s impossible to predict when a cloud of crap floating in space will become a star, just as it’s impossible to predict when a people will rise up and say “enough is enough”. But in both cases we know that the steady accumulation of crap makes the thunderous process of creation more and more likely.

      Interesting that stars are commonly used on flags and insignia to represent countries.

      Can we have a star on our flag when we are free?

    149. Doug says:

      Anyone know the latest newspaper circulation figures in Scotland?

    150. Geri says:

      Plebiscite
      Haven’t we had them anyway? Every GE since 2015?
      UK gov would just laugh & ignore it because Scott is correct, a manifesto promise isn’t legal & binding. It’s just for Sturgeon to claim another 5 yrs & Blackford to whine to respect the result.

      Indyref had the Edinburgh agreement which was legal & binding.

      & The original idea for a Plebiscite was to use Holyrood elections, Holyroods baw, Holyroods franchise, Holyroods majority to vote through the result in Holyroods parliament.

      Bypassing WM altogether. Then a GE to start our exit.

      Sturgeons half arsed approach is just more of the same bullshit she’s peddled for yrs *send us to WM to ask permission* that’ll just be kicked again. She has sent out her side kick to tell us it’s not independence – it’s just another free pass to get them into WM to ask. So it’s the same shit as we have now but with a different name.

      She’s actively working against our Independence because she told the SC that even if they allowed us to have a ref, the UK government doesn’t have to implement the result.

      So what’s the point of either? What a knt!

    151. Geri says:

      PS

      Imagine if we did hold a referendum & it was 70/80% in favour of YES winning..

      And the UK says Yay! Great result! BTW – Remember you said we didn’t need to implement it? Well we’re not. Cheers!

      *Groans*

      That’s another idiot statement to add to the ‘Once in a Generation’ never ending mantra.

    152. Andy Ellis says:

      @Geri 6.26 am

      “Scott” isn’t any more correct than you are. Nobody is arguing that manifesto pledges are legally binding. Referendum results aren’t either unless they are specifically MADE legally binding, they are purely advisory.

      If a majority of Scots voters vote for pro-independence parties which are standing on a specific platform that gaining a majority of votes in any election will be taken as de facto independence, then it’s game over for the union.

      Of course using plebiscitary elections at Holyrood would be preferable to Westminster, not only because the franchise is better for the Yes side, and because it’s “our parliament”, but because a pro-independence government would be able to dictate WHEN such elections were held, not be hanging around waiting for the yoons to call a Westminster election. Things might be different if Scottish MPs routinely held the balance of power at Westminster as IPP MPs used to do back in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s.

      It’s not just Sturgeon. If she was hit by a bus tomorrow some like minded clone like Robertson would be just the same. The SNP membership need to change the party from within, or the Yes movement has to ensure the SNP isn’t in a position to dictate terms by depriving it of a majority.

      I doubt many people in here are under any illusion that Sturgeon and her cabal are suddenly going to change, but when indyref2 doesn’t happen in 2023 she either has to deliver via plebiscitary elections or face large scale defections. Doubtless even then there will still be ultra loyalists who will insist “Nicola’s got this” and they’ll still be saying it in 2037.

      The buck stops with Scottish voters. If they want things to progress they can’t afford to take “No” for an answer, whether it’s yoons saying they will boycott a plebiscitary election, or elements in Westminster saying they won’t recognise the results of a plebiscitary elections, more fool us if we aren’t prepared to take not ask!

    153. Breeks says:


      Hatuey says:
      14 November, 2022 at 12:03 am

      Good to see Kevin McKenna telling it like it is, and Wishart clearly raging.

      Wishart is thin skinned, easy to bait and quick to anger, but whether he’s raging at ALBA or basking in fireside glow with a glass of Port from his Tory buddies in the huntin’ and fishin’ cuntry club, an angry Wishart is no more use to Scotland than a limp one.

      To see him and Swinney being wined and dined by the gun club fraternity actually reminded me of the 1970’s sitcom, Citizen Smith; in a particular episode, Wolfie (Robert Lindsay), was invited to a party by a spoiled debutante type pretending to fancy a bit of rough, and as I recall, the local villain was invited to the same party on the promise of a big business deal.

      The “gag” was the party “theme” for the Toffs was to bring along the biggest working class wanker they could find, and humiliate them in front of their chums.

      I forget how they found out about the plot, but the last line in the Wolfie’s protest song was, “…because some naughty urban guerilla put some laxative in the punch”.

      He might have been a parody, but even Wolfie Smith could work out what Wishart and Swinney evidently cannot.

      But Kevin McKenna ends with a flourish too..

      “Yet, despite all that, I have no doubt that with real political leadership, Scotland will find its full-stature and voice, and before it’s too late,walk out of the unsustainable Bedlam that is Gt Britain, without ever looking back”.

      Good lord, that’s almost optimistic. I wonder how many times he re-drafted the last paragraph to avoid using the word “if”.

    154. Breeks says:

      Woops…Please strike that last comment… The last quote wasn’t McKenna at all, I had the wrong page up.

    155. Andy Ellis says:

      If nobody stands against him, he becomes FM by default.

      He’d then offer cabinet positions to any member – snp/green/labour/libdem/tories

      And they immediately get voted down by the pro-independence majority. No FM can continue if they don’t command the confidence of the parliament.

      An Extraordinary Election isn’t contingent on a 2/3 vote in Holyrood.

      Section 3 of the Scotland Act, 1998:


      3 Extraordinary general elections.

      (1) The Presiding Officer shall propose a day for the holding of a poll if—

      (a) the Parliament resolves that it should be dissolved and, if the resolution is passed on a division, the number of members voting in favour of it is not less than two-thirds of the total number of seats for members of the Parliament, or

      (b) any period during which the Parliament is required under section 46 to nominate one of its members for appointment as First Minister ends without such a nomination being made.

      (2) If the Presiding Officer makes such a proposal, Her Majesty may by proclamation under the Scottish Seal—

      (a) dissolve the Parliament and require an extraordinary general election to be held,

      (b) require the poll at the election to be held on the day proposed, and

      (c) require the Parliament to meet within the period of seven days beginning immediately after the day of the poll.

      (3) If a poll is held under this section within the period of six months ending with the day on which the poll at the next ordinary general election would be held (disregarding section 2(5)), that ordinary general election shall not be held.

      (4) Subsection (3) does not affect the year in which the subsequent ordinary general election is to be held.

      yw/hth

    156. Dorothy Devine says:

      I wonder if Wishart takes offence on behalf of ‘colleagues’ in the HoC when they see the Guardian cartoonists work or that of John Crace and Marina Hyde?

      I think I’ll invite one or two of my favourites to lampoon ‘our’ MP’s and MSP’s – plenty to work with for sure.

    157. Andy Ellis says:

      Given the number of pro independence folk Wishart has ostentatiously blocked online, including it seems lots of his constituents, I wonder if anyone has ever seen or heard one of them report back on any subsequent discussions or meetings with him?

      He seems totally without reason when it comes to his online responses, but presumably it’d be harder for him to be quite as dismissive if he was faced with an actual constituent whether at a surgery or just in person. From memory he never stopped banging on about the amount of people he canvassed and spoke to….?

    158. Ruby says:

      Hatuey says:
      14 November, 2022 at 12:03 am

      Good to see Kevin McKenna telling it like it is,

      Another good article from McKenna

      https://archive.ph/iZzN7

      The SNP’s counterfeit independence contingent at Westminster is replete with political chancers starring in their own pantomime and good for very little. They get free trips and tin medals for “standing with Ukraine” or hurling juvenile insults at other pro-independence parties or bullying female colleagues and covering up sexual misbehaviour by their male drinking chums.
      Many of them will have been appalled that Twitter’s restoration of authentic free speech has seen the return of the Rev Stuart Campbell and his website, Wings Over Scotland to the platform. Westminster’s affluent SNP pensioners and placemen hated the Rev Campbell but not because he was wont to express himself in uncompromising language sprinkled with profanities.
      They are terrified of Wings because, more than anyone else, it highlighted the lies and spin at the heart of the SNP’s lucrative independence strategy. The crushing of all internal dissent within the SNP; the orchestrated campaigns of hate directed at gender-critical women and the absence of any strategy about independence have been a feature of the years in which Wings Over Scotland was banned from Twitter. A banishment which came as a result of calling out such behaviour in, admittedly, raw and uncompromising terms.
      I can’t claim to be a major supporter of Wings Over Scotland as it’s occasionally been disobliging about me over the years. Who cares, though. A Herald list of Scotland’s top political operators listed Wings Over Scotland as the independence movement’s most influential resource.

    159. Ruby says:

      Hatuey says:
      14 November, 2022 at 12:03 am

      Good to see Kevin McKenna telling it like it is,

      Another good article from McKenna

      https://archive.ph/iZzN7

      My comment regarding this article is awaiting moderation!

      Scroll down to

      The SNP’s counterfeit independence contingent at Westminster is replete with political chancers

      for the really good bit

    160. Ruby says:

      Hatuey says:
      14 November, 2022 at 12:03 am

      Good to see Kevin McKenna telling it like it is,

      Another good article from McKenna

      https://archive.ph/iZzN7

      The SNP’s counterfeit independence contingent at Westminster is replete with political chancers starring in their own pantomime and good for very little. They get free trips and tin medals for “standing with redacted” or hurling juvenile insults at other pro-independence parties or bullying female colleagues and covering up sexual misbehaviour by their male drinking chums.
      Many of them will have been appalled that Twitter’s restoration of authentic free speech has seen the return of the Rev Stuart Campbell and his website, Wings Over Scotland to the platform. Westminster’s affluent SNP pensioners and placemen hated the Rev Campbell but not because he was wont to express himself in uncompromising language sprinkled with profanities.
      They are terrified of Wings because, more than anyone else, it highlighted the lies and spin at the heart of the SNP’s lucrative independence strategy. The crushing of all internal dissent within the SNP; the orchestrated campaigns of hate directed at gender-critical women and the absence of any strategy about independence have been a feature of the years in which Wings Over Scotland was banned from Twitter. A banishment which came as a result of calling out such behaviour in, admittedly, raw and uncompromising terms.
      I can’t claim to be a major supporter of Wings Over Scotland as it’s occasionally been disobliging about me over the years. Who cares, though. A Herald list of Scotland’s top political operators listed Wings Over Scotland as the independence movement’s most influential resource.

    161. Ruby says:

      If the return of the Rev Campbell and his Wings Over Scotland blog to Twitter makes these political bottom-feeders squirm a little then Elon Musk’s takeover will have yielded at least one good outcome. Kevin McKenna

      Go Kevin! Go Stuart!

      https://archive.ph/iZzN7

      Excellent article!

    162. Ruby says:

      https://archive.ph/yWd2S

      Elon Musk and the mystery of Wings Over Scotland

      Mark Smith worth a read on this occasion!

      Mr Campbell pointed out at the time of his suspension, quite reasonably, that the tweet that got him banned did not refer to any of these categories and that Twitter does not ban swearing, even upper-level swearing like the c-word.

    163. Hatuey says:

      Am I the only one that finds using bold instead of good old fashioned quotes difficult to read? It’s also incorrect. And it’s easier to punctuate correctly, requiring less characters.

      I’m impressed that some on here are able to suspend disbelief and take the rules of the hideous wendy house we call Holyrood seriously.

      Devolution is basically a glorified Neighbourhood Watch program that pays people to act like jobsworth morons. The central assumption of those who want the neighbourhood watched is that bribing the local political class is the cheapest and best way to do it, essentially turning potential poachers into gamekeepers.

      Throw enough money at morons and they’ll go along with anything. I learned that whilst watching and listening to Kim Wilde in the 1980s…

      Whatever. Just don’t get too attached.

    164. Ruby says:

      “Hatuey says:
      14 November, 2022 at 10:25 am

      Am I the only one that finds using bold instead of good old fashioned quotes difficult to read? It’s also incorrect. And it’s easier to punctuate correctly, requiring less characters”
      Are you hoping to have a debate about formatting? I find it’s easier to distinguish between quotes and replies using bold. The ideal situation would be if there was a reply box. I like bold for emphasis. Any views on moderation and who should be banned?

    165. Merganser says:

      Andy Ellis has become a cheerleader for the SNP strategy of holding a plebiscitary election which takes us nowhere.

      How many other people have fallen for this? It must be witchcraft working. That’s ok though – free pardons already granted.

    166. Ruby says:

      Am I the only one that finds using bold instead of good old fashioned quotes difficult to read?

      I find this type of thing annoying because you don’t know who is saying the above.

    167. Ruby says:

      Andy Ellis has become a cheerleader for the SNP strategy of holding a plebiscitary election which takes us nowhere.

      To bold or not to bold that is the question?

      I like bold for emphasis.

    168. Andy Ellis says:

      @Merganser

      You and others apparently invested in the unicorns and rainbow “cunning plans for indy” movement may have forgotten, but the rest of us haven’t, that those of us who were opposed to the SNP’s “gold standard” indyref fixation have been advocating for years that the party – and indeed movement more generally- should have put the question of the legality of a non S30 sanctioned referendum beyond legal doubt. Rev Stu was on record doing so long before the Martin Keatings fund raised for his personal case from memory.

      The whole point of gaining that certainty was that if the British nationalist establishment were essentially moving the goalposts towards a Spanish style position, i.e. you can never have a legal referendum or exercise your self determination without the “permission” of Westminster, then the referendum route is essentially dead. That means we need a Plan B. We all remember the lumpen loyalist SNP members dutifully booing Chris McEleny when he tried to have Plan B discussed at the SNPconference.

      Sturgeon’s Damascene conversion to the use of plebiscitary elections in lieu of a referendum in the event the latter proves impossible to arrange is as startling as it is suspicious. She had of course painted herself in to a corner in some respects, as she and her cadres know that after insisting indyref2 was definitely going to happen in 2023, they need some red meat to throw to disillusioned members when indyref 2023 (inevitably) doesn’t happen.

      You and others are free to write off the prospect of plebiscitary elections of course. Perhaps you’re even right. However unless you’re going to show us an alternative that is more plausible and enjoys majority support, yours is essentially a dialogue of despair, because you have no realistic alternative path to independence that isn’t a generation or more away.

    169. Doug says:

      There were three letters published last week in the printed edition of The National criticising Wishart and his studied inactivity on independence; I wonder if that’s what caused his latest bout of huffiness?

    170. Scott says:

      Andy Ellis says:
      14 November, 2022 at 8:38 am

      And they immediately get voted down by the pro-independence majority. No FM can continue if they don’t command the confidence of the parliament.

      An Extraordinary Election isn’t contingent on a 2/3 vote in Holyrood.

      —-

      Are you really, really drunk?

      Extraordinary election is contingent on 2/3 majority if a motion is proposed to hold one.

      If nobody is proposed as FM, then PO will call for GE, but nowhere does it say that Douglas Ross et al wouldn’t be allowed to actually become FM if proposed because they wouldn’t command a majority. What you’re thinking of is the chamber blocking the legislative agenda, which isn’t a given because we don’t know any of the details yet. If THAT version of The Scottish Ministers resigned then someone else would be proposed as FM…or not as the case may be, at which point we’d have an election.

      This isn’t difficult to understand – and is actually backed up by the legislation you quoted. Your own evidence fucked your own argument, such that it was.

      Scotland Act

      3 Extraordinary general elections.

      (1) The Presiding Officer shall propose a day for the holding of a poll if—

      (a) the Parliament resolves that it should be dissolved and, if the resolution is passed on a division, the number of members voting in favour of it is not less than two-thirds of the total number of seats for members of the Parliament, or

      (b) any period during which the Parliament is required under section 46 to nominate one of its members for appointment as First Minister ends without such a nomination being made.

    171. Merganser says:

      Andy Ellis @ 11.25.

      Backing the SNP is going to put the cause of independence back further than anything. It’s giving false hope, and when it fails (again) many people will just give up.

      The starting point must be to expose them for what they are, not side with them. You know what they have done and what they are hiding.

      How you can carry on trusting them to deliver independence is beyond my comprehension. I never thought you would fall under their spell, but you are definitely dancing to their tune now.

    172. Geri says:

      Was it Kevin McKenna who warned us years ago that the SNP was taken over by eejits at conference?

      Breeks, lol
      The Crown touched on this well known tradition too. Invite the peasant girl made good (Thatcher) for a weekend sport of ripping the royal piss out of her on arrival.

      As for Wishart, he wouldn’t dare face his constituents, that’s what activists are for. He’s royalty in his own head. The blue rinse brigade would rip him a new arsehole over GR. Like Sturgeon – he’s for higher office somewhere else now that the SNP have revealed themselves pushing the perverts charter.

    173. Geri says:

      Andy
      If history has shown us anything it’s the ability for politicians to switch sides at the crucial moment.

      If sturgeon is challenged she won’t hold a majority when the music starts. The current crew aren’t loyal to her or independence & zero principles. They’re only interested in who’s paying thier wages at the end of the month.

    174. John Main says:

      @ Scott says:13 November, 2022 at 9:59 pm

      … in the eyes of the Nictator …

      Subtle, but very funny once understood.

    175. John Main says:

      @ Hatuey says:14 November, 2022 at 12:03 am

      Can we have a star on our flag when we are free?

      I’ll sleep on it, Hatuey, and let you know tomorrow if you have my nomination.

    176. Hatuey says:

      Boldface generally, Ruby, is for decorative purposes. Citations and quotations are sufficiently accommodated with punctuation marks, the use of which is governed by rules.

      Funny you say emboldening helps give emphasis, for me it confuses things. Maybe I have that irlen syndrome or whatever it’s called.

      I just saw a bumble bee which is odd in mid November…

      I’d ban everyone, except James Che and maybe RoS, on the basis that they’re the only two people that I think are sincere. That includes me — I don’t even know what sincere means anymore.

    177. Republicofscotland says:

      Hundreds of millions of pounds are being stripped from Scotland’s economy everyday, but Sturgeon is bumming that her government has added an extra fiver onto the Scottish Child Payment.

      I’d image if the Judas Sturgeon has done the right thing by Scots and got us out of this asset draining union, Holyrood could’ve given families more than a fiver rise. Instead the massive amounts of money head South or into foreign corporations coffers.

      You know where you can shove your fiver Sturgeon.

    178. Hatuey says:

      Maybe wings can arrange a competition, new flag for an Indy Scotland. Get people thinking about things…

      My design would include a sword, a skull, and a star… as a symbol the unicorn thing is just depressing.

    179. Scott says:

      John Main says:
      14 November, 2022 at 1:51 pm

      @ Scott says:13 November, 2022 at 9:59 pm

      … in the eyes of the Nictator …

      Subtle, but very funny once understood.

      It’s not subtle at all, I’ve been using that term for ages, and it’s not meant to be funny, but to highlight the enduring ‘tell’ that rapid blinking is.

      She’s a pathological liar walking a line she doesn’t really understand but has bet the house on…what her reward will be at the end is anyone’s guess. [Mine is a seat in the Lords]

    180. Breeks says:

      Merganser says:
      14 November, 2022 at 1:01 pm

      The starting point must be to expose them for what they are, not side with them. You know what they have done and what they are hiding…

      I reckon a sober and serious attempt to impeach the Holyrood government might have the same effect as an urban guerrilla putting laxative in the punch.

      It wouldn’t be done under Westminster “white” sovereignty where either Westminster, the Scotland Act or the UK Supreme Court can charge to Holyrood’s rescue; the impeachment would be instigated through Scotland’s “red” sovereignty steered by a Convention of the Estates, and even the Court of Session would stand below such a Convention in the constitutional hierarchy.

      If a committed attempt to impeach was made, just like the Claim of Right in 1689 was a committed attempt to depose James VII, I suspect Westminster might start filling it’s breeks too, because they’d be faced with losing their constitutional beachhead for Westminster’s Parliamentary Sovereignty inside the Realm of Scotland, where of course, it has no right to be anyway, because it’s the Community of the Realm who is sovereign in Scotland.

      If Scotland’s devolved assembly was impeached for unconstitutional conduct, it’s difficult to see Holyrood surviving as a devolved anything, because the Scotland Act too would be homeless, leaderless, and rudderless, wandering lost in no man’s land.

      At minimum, Holyrood would need a whole new Constitution, and new codification of fealty to the people of Scotland, not Westminster or Monarch… and that doesn’t really describe a “devolved” legislature, does it? It’s describing a Scottish Parliament full stop, answerable only to Scotland’s people, and let me just check the arithmetic,… yeah, Scotland is a sovereign nation by default.

      What are we waiting for? Well, I reckon not much; just SALVO’s 2022 Convention of the Estates becoming a reality and subsequently instigating a 2022 Claim of Right.

    181. Andy Ellis says:

      @Merganser 1.01 pm

      The starting point must be to expose them for what they are, not side with them. You know what they have done and what they are hiding.

      I’m not siding with them. The issue is that absent some improbable political earthquake in the short to medium term, the SNP aren’t simply going to shut up shop and disappear, or collapse like the IPP did in Ireland in the 1920’s. Even if they get a kicking at some future election, or there’s an internecine party civil war and some of their support decamps to other parties due to their lack of progress in independence, it’s not plausible that they will simply not exist.

      The movement as a whole will still be dependent on a block of voters who will still dutifully vote SNP, however misguided you and I think they are. The point will be to ensure that the SNP are not in a position to dictate to the movement as a whole, or act as though they can be the single voice, or the only party standing in plebiscitary elections.

      It’s a grotesque caricature of my position to say it’s dancing to the SNP’s tune. It suggests you’re either not arguing in good faith, or you’ve simply misunderstood the issues. Whichever it is, I’m done trying to dumb it down for you any further so you can get a grip on reality.

    182. Muscleguy says:

      One reason I almost never visit Pop is that I can never get the comment system to work. Unlike this place.

      Also back when it worked lots of us took him to task over his maths denying support for Both Votes SNP back when the now Odious Greens were the alternative.

      Now he is all things enamoured of Alba I have seen no mea culpa post from him. He just swapped as though his past posture hadn’t happened.

      I may have missed it of course so I’m open to correction. But such dishonesty and party political pisitioning is not confidence boosting.

      Much like the Dug Grifter choosing money over integrity.

    183. James Che says:

      Breeks.
      Alf Baird.

      If you don’t mind, bare with me while I state a case for debate and some concerning anomalies with regards to Treaty of union and the devolved Scottish government and the Scottish parliament 1707.

      The parallel between the devolved Scottish parliament and the Westminster parliament not being constitutional to Scotland should be noted with a little more attention. For there are many flaws between the two parliaments existence not being given as studied.

      For instance, how legal an entity is the Westminster parliament or the legislated devolved Scottish government that is supposed to represent Scots if the following is also true.

      Is it supposed to be the case that the 1707 Scottish parliament supposedly entered into the New British parliament to represent Scotland and the Scots.
      WHERE IS THAT 1707 SCOTTISH PARLIAMENT THAT IS SUPPOSED TO REPRESENT THE SCOTS?
      Why the need for a devolved parliament if we have a Scottish parliament in the treaty of the union residing in Westminster since 1707?
      According to the UK Parliament site 2022 the Scottish parliament extinguished in 1707 by (agreeing) to the Treaty of the union.

      So it can be read legally that No [extinguished Scottish parliament entered] the British parliament in joint parliamentary union.
      The anomally being that the Scottish parliament had been promised in the treaty arrangements and agreement the Scottish parliament would be join as the other half of the treaty into the new British Parliament, but was cancelled and extinguished by actually Agreeing to the treaty.
      So the Scottish parliament never actually proceeded into a verifid joint parliaments of Scotland and England
      Presuming that the UK parliament is not telling lies in broad daylight for every Country to read on their site in 2022,
      None of The Treaty articles for Scotland are able to hold legal validity to a Treaty since the 1707 Scottish parliament was extinguished in and by Englands Westminster Parliament in England 1707.
      That is the legal position of Englands Westminster/UK parliament has taken in 1707 and in 2022.

      With this statement from the Westminster parliament in mind since 1707 to present day, that the old Scottish parliament had not continued or actually succeeded in entering into a joint union with Englands old parliament,

      Where do we stand?

      1: The realisation that the treaty of union that had been promised in a joining between the Scottish and English parliaments was never completed in its course.

      2: There has been NO Scottish Parliament in Westminster from 1707 onwards according to Westminster parliament.

      3: There has been No Scottish parliament members in Westminster from 1707 onwards.

      4: That Englands Westminster parliament has No legal basis for surpplanting a Devolved Government in Scotland to supercede a Scottish government that had Sine die’d its own parliament under Scots laws of its kingdom and realm.

      5: Any laws from Westminster to Scotland are not legally relevant as the two parliaments never completed the treaty of the union.
      This would include the Supreme Court of GB, section 30 requirements, referendums with permission from Westminster parliament,
      The Scotland act, the Devolved government to Scotland by the English Westminster Parliament that the Scottish parliament did not join up with in 1707, in the British parliament.

      If the Scottish parliament was prevented from joining and completing the Treaty of the union of the two parliaments by Westminster Choosing to extinguish the 1707 Scottish parliament.
      It can be no fault of Scotland that the English Westminster Parliament did not keep its word.
      For in Scotland the 1707 Scottish parliament is only closed under Sine Die.

    184. Scott says:

      @ James Cheyne

      For the umpteenth time…please stop regurgitating nonsense. Parliament of Great Britain has been explained to you over & over again.

      1. Both of the so-called ‘Old Parliaments of Scotland & England’ retain legal personality to this day. Westminster does not own either piece of legislation…it merely has the power to amend, as devolved all those centuries ago. Power devolved is power retained.

      2. When Union with England Act 1707 was passed, the creation of a brand spanking new legislature was contingent on the passing of Union with Scotland Act 1706. [1706 comes from the parliamentary session not date of passing, which was 1707] Breaches of the UwEA1707 are matters for the Court of Session to adjudicate on. Statute of limitations can be disapplied by the court if need be.

      3. The treaty terms were agreed before the relevant Acts were passed. Even if Scotland had refused to codify its terms, it would still remain a Treaty, but one not formally recognised by the whole of the international community of the day. Queen Anne would likely have been sacked and Scotland would then likely have been invaded by the petulant cunts in charge doon there.

    185. Republicofscotland says:

      Y’know there was a time when I would’ve staunchly defended any SNP health secretary, no doubt so would many of my fellow commentors, but not anymore.

      Here Sturgeon the betrayer defends that useless lickspittle Humza Yousaf on the state our NHS is now in, the usual whataboutery trope is rolled out by the betrayer that Scotland’s NHS is doing better than the other NHS’s in the UK, as if that’s some kind of comfort to folk waiting an eternity for an ambulance, and even if they do get an ambulance, and it’s a frickin big if, they then need to wait hours inside the ambulance outside the hospital.

      I know this for sure, for yesterday I took someone over to Scotland’s flagship hospital in my home town of Glasgow, the Southern General, or as some Britnat prick in an office named it the (QEUH) Queen Elizabeth University Hospital, and outside A&E sat 15 ambulances with their backdoors open and everyone had someone lying or sitting in the back awaiting triage.

      Sturgeon says.

      “Anybody who thinks the challenges – the very real challenges – our National Health Service is facing now is down to who the Health Secretary is, probably doesn’t understand the nature of those challenges,” she said.

      He is just part of the problem her reluctance to obtain independence is another big part of it, for we are hamstrung by Westminster on what we have to spend on our NHS, again we send million South to the exchequers coffers every day, when we need that money for Scotland and its people.

      Effectively its Sturgeon the betrayer by her inaction on independence that’s having a knock-on effect on Scotland and its services including our NHS.

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F23123731.nicola-sturgeon-says-humza-yousaf-absolute-confidence%2F

    186. Republicofscotland says:

      As the saying goes “If London sneezes Scotland catches a cold” it’s really relevant here.

      “Meanwhile, former Bank of England policymaker Michael Saunders has recently said that the UK economy has been “permanently damaged by Brexit” and that it has “reduced the economy’s potential output significantly” and “eroded business investment.”

      He added: “If we hadn’t had Brexit we probably wouldn’t be talking about an austerity Budget this week – the need for tax rises and spending cuts wouldn’t be there if Brexit hadn’t reduced the economy’s potential output so much.””

      Of course Sturgeon the betrayer of Scots knew, like most of us, that Brexit would be an unmitigated disaster, yet she point blank refused to save Scots from it, now Scots are suffering because of her treachery. What’s even more disheartening is that her MPs and MSPs did nothing either, and are still doing nothing to compel the Judas to get us out of this union post-Brexit.

      No, they stayed quiet, well, the ones without a moral compass have, the half-decent ones jumped ship when they realised that Sturgeon wasn’t interested in saving Scots and Scottish businesses from Brexit. Now those MSPs and MPs of little worth to Scotland, other than finger pointing at Westminster have remained silent and are right behind Sturgeon, all we can do is make sure we don’t vote for the SNP at the next GE, we must give our GE votes to the Alba party.

      We need to get the SNP out of office and Alba in, then we can move forward, until then we’re on Sturgeon controlled rollercoaster with more downs than ups.

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F23124028.london-overtaken-paris-europes-largest-stock-market%2F

    187. McDuff says:

      RoS
      My dentist has just informed me that it is going private. This is the NHS being privatised by the back door ans the sturgeon has nothing to say.
      Of course It won’t bother her considering the fortune she will be amassing.

    188. Breeks says:

      Jeezo… Anybody who thinks we don’t have a problem with the voting franchise needs to visit the Borders.

      If you had somebody blindfold you, drive you to a place and make you guess where you were by listening to accents alone, you’d have sworn you were in Carlisle, with some Geordies and Cockneys up on holiday.

      I don’t usually pound the streets and do much shopping, but today, I was doing preciously that in Hawick and Gala, (not that there are many shops left), but holy moly…

      It maybe doesn’t hurt the cause as much as some areas, because for some inexplicable reason the Borders votes Tory, but if you make the assumption that’s a Unionist No vote, then a YES in the Borders is already under pressure.

      Please god, let us not sleepwalk into another rigged franchise on a constitutional vote…

    189. Merganser says:

      Breeks @ 2.27pm.

      How wonderful this would be if it could be achieved.

      Attacking (not physically) the SNP on as many fronts as possible is necessary to get rid of them so we can start again with genuine independence seekers, instead of the frauds doing the pretending.

      The latest Sturgeon wheeze (abolishing jury trials) is another stain she will inflict on an already discredited legal system..

      The political system also went to the dogs with the Salmond affair, to Scotland’s everlasting shame.

      Yet people are still saying follow what the SNP propose to get independence. How many more years do they need before they see the light?

    190. twathater says:

      @ Merganiser , I am also one who favours a plebiscitery election and have stated so numerous times in the past , there have been frequent discussions on that policy numerous times BTL

      What I am NOT in favour of though is STURGEON’S FAKE plebiscite election , where her CORRUPT and DESPICABLE party have hobbled the independence community by STILL insisting that ONLY the Scum and Nonce Party should receive the plebiscite votes and furthermore it is not binding , it is basically a poll that won’t have any LEGAL standing

      As has been stated numerous times Scots are sovereign, that is imbedded in WM and the COR, there is NO ambiguity

      So IF every independence supporting party were to STATE categorically and unequivocally that they were fighting any general election within Scotland as a plebiscite election with one policy in their mandate whereby if independence parties formed the government of Scotland they would immediately declare independence and the dissolution of the union
      IF that declaration is made by the parties to the nation of Scotland there is no ambiguity as to what people are voting for , if they vote for the independence party for governance then they voted for their policy and mandate

      The usual cries of refusing to vote or not participating don’t wash , there is an election, vote or don’t vote the choice is yours there is no buyers remorse , if you want to vote for a unionist party that has remain in their manifesto you are entitled to do so that is your valid vote choice and they will govern for the electoral cycle of 5 years or whatever but then we have NEW ELECTIONS

      The unionists would be apoplectic but what could they do , WE are FORCED to endure governments that we haven’t voted for since 1955 or 56

      IF WM don’t like it they can always take Scotland’s government to the ICJ and show them the documents that prove Scotland was subsumed

      I believe in referenda , electing political parties to govern is just another form of referenda of the people , what would the outcome be if sturgeon the betrayer had held a referendum on her GRR and HCB, policies that have a massive impact on everyone

    191. John Main says:

      @ Republicofscotland says:14 November, 2022 at 4:36 pm

      “Meanwhile, former Bank of England policymaker Michael Saunders has recently said that the UK economy has been “permanently damaged by Brexit” and that it has “reduced the economy’s potential output significantly” and “eroded business investment.”

      He added: “If we hadn’t had Brexit we probably wouldn’t be talking about an austerity Budget this week – the need for tax rises and spending cuts wouldn’t be there if Brexit hadn’t reduced the economy’s potential output so much.””

      It’s a new week, a new thread, hows about a new fucking record, eh?

      https://www.indiatoday.in/diu/story/global-recession-2023-how-it-affects-india-detail-2284356-2022-10-12

      And a wee quote from that link:

      Russia, Indonesia, India, the UK and Germany are among the countries that may contribute the most to this global output loss, a United Nations Conference on Trade and Development (UNCTAD) report observed.

      While India may bear an output loss of 7.8 per cent in 2023, the Euro area is expected to lose 5.1 per cent, China 5.7 per cent, the U.K. 6.8 per cent, and Russia may bear 12.6 per cent output loss. Rising interest rates, weakening of currencies, mounting public debt — and all these factors raising food and fuel prices — have introduced uncertainty in the global markets.

      Are we expected to believe Brexit is fucking over a good half of the world?

      Naw.

    192. Doug says:

      breeks@4.50pm

      I think the recent census results are still to be published [apologies if they already have and I’ve missed them] and they might be able to shine some light on the numbers of recent arrivals from England.

      We need to know all up to date information.

    193. Republicofscotland says:

      McDuff @4.41pm.

      As far as I’m aware dentists are going private because NHS work doesn’t pay enough, it cost a dentist more to treat a patient needing a filing or an extraction than they receive form the NHS.

      I doubt Sturgeon will need to worry about getting access to a dentist.

    194. Republicofscotland says:

      Main.

      The UK the only place in the world that actively destroyed its economy and damaged countless businesses via Brexit. Brexit is the disaster that just keeps on giving, and will continue to do so for a long time.

      Sturgeon the Judas allowed the slabbering vile Tories to drag Scotland out of one of the largest trading markets on the planet, the Single Market, instead of obtaining independence for Scotland to help save those businesses affected and free us from this f*cked up union she decided to try and save England from itself, now she’s hawking herself all over Europe and hoping that the Europeans will listen to her neoliberal rantings and ravings.

      Sturgeon’s mantra is, is your business going down the toilet due to Brexit, then read a book, can’t get an ambulance, read a book, fuel bills unpayable, read a book, you don’t like who’s playing for St Johnstone, my pal Val will sort that, oh and read one of her books.

    195. Republicofscotland says:

      Doug @6.44pm.

      According the press the first results of the census won’t be released until 2023, the poor excuse by the Scottish government for not taking a census in 2021 the same as England and Wales did was, we couldn’t due to Covid.

      I think some data has been released from the English and Welsh ones and if Sturgeon had taken the census at the same time, we’d be getting data in this year.

      The year late has cost the Scottish taxpayer millions more, and I don’t buy into the Covid excuse, I don’t trust Sturgeon as far as I could throw her.

    196. Andy Ellis says:

      Please god, let us not sleepwalk into another rigged franchise on a constitutional vote…

      The last franchise wasn’t rigged however much you and other nativists bloviate about it. The franchise was what the movement agreed to and overwhelmingly supported at the time. It was seen as an intrinsic part of the civic nationalist project, quite apart from the fact Scotland was recognised as a country with a low birth rate and ageing population that needed to ATTRACT immigrantion, not discourage it.

      As has been pointed out ad nauseam too, the precedent for self determination referendums is a franchise based on residence. It’s intellectually dishonest to make the false equivalence between the franchise used by ALREADY independent countries to decide constitutional amendments, which is based on citizenship and franchises for referendums.

      We won’t be sleepwalking in to anything. It will be for the movement as a whole to decide if they want to restrict the franchise. That might make nativists happy, but it could easily lose you as many votes as it gains, particularly amongst current “soft No” voters who may be wavering in their commitment to the union given the current bin fire the UK is turning out to be.

      We should be doubling down on presenting an independent Scotland as a progressive, civic nationalist alternative to the dystopian Little Englander vision of Empire v0.2 not attempting to emulate the worst aspects of it.

    197. PacMan says:

      Going O/T

      I wonder if this could be the way that Europe solves it’s energy problems by buying ‘Turkish gas’ which is a mixture of gas that Turkey gets from a number of countries including the one which Europe is no longer buying from:

      https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/turkey-gas-hub-europe-could-become

    198. gregor says:

      National Records of Scotland: FOI Request for death statistics:

      FOI reference: 202200323875:

      Date received: 7 October 2022: Date responded: 31 October 2022:

      Information requested:

      Request for “total amount of doctors and nurses that have died from COVID-19 in Scotland from 2020-2022 broken down by individual year and also month if possible possible ?.”

      NRS Response:

      “There have been no deaths registered between 2020 and 2022 for doctors (SOC2010 code 2211) or nurses (SOC2010 code 2231)…”:

      https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/files//record-keeping/legislation/foi-202200323875-request-for-death-statistics.pdf

    199. Merganser says:

      Twathater @ 6.04. says: ‘..furthermore it is not binding, it is basically a poll that won’t have any legal standing’.

      Exactly. A plebiscitary vote on Sturgeon’s terms is a pointless exercise to make it look like she is doing something.

      It will do a lot for Sturgeon and her fellow troughers, and nothing to advance the cause of independence.

      It also risks putting it back for years if it results in the wrong result. Madness. They have to go.

    200. Merganser says:

      To use someone else’s analogy, it’s like betting the farm on…a chance to have another roll of the dice if you win, or losing the lot if you don’t.

    201. Republicofscotland says:

      ” It’s intellectually dishonest”

      Is it really where did you concoct that little gem up I wonder.

      In anycase I prefer to do an Egypt, and by the time we get to 2026, and state Scotland will be in by then, I’m confident many Scots will also want to do an Egypt.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unilateral_Declaration_of_Egyptian_Independence

    202. Geri says:

      Brexit

      Is to blame for the shit were in. Commentators the world over claim if brexit had never happened we’d have been able to weather the storm far better. Now we’re heading into more austerity & recession.

      As for dentists, a nurse ranted & raved at me (as I was having my bloods taken) about the covid vaccine roll out & how she was in the wrong job. Her pay band paid less despite having more qualifications than the dentist’s who’d volunteered at the centres & were commanding £thousands per month while swanning around doing very little – especially when blood was flying with antivaxer violence. They’d wander off & leave nurses to sort being spat at. Said they were never done gloating they were investing in property No3 *paid off in 6 months* she was spitting feathers.I think there’s been a taste of the high life & they will probably stay on that path now while the other side (nurses) have taken a good look at thier pay packets & discover all theyre getting a fking clap every week. LOL

    203. Norway ,the most democratic country in the world, limits voting in elections to citizens,

      to become a citizen of the most democratic country in the world you have to,

      `Generally speaking, you will need to have had legal residency in Norway for at least seven years to be able to apply. You’ll also need to be at least partially fluent in the Norwegian language`

    204. Geri says:

      I’ll stick with international best practice.

      Not an open door policy & especially so when all our larger neighbour needs to do is move for a few months. It’s sheer stupidity to have part-time residents vote on our constitution.
      Scotland voted yes – rUK put paid to that notion & will do so again.
      Just as the Welsh didn’t vote for Brexshit but their residents from next door who live there did.

      5+ years residency. Any lower then include Scottish expats.

    205. Breeks says:

      Geri says:
      14 November, 2022 at 8:30 pm

      Brexit

      Is to blame for the shit were in.

      Yes, but I also believe Brexit, which violated the Claim of Right, is Scotland’s ticket out of the Union.

      But a breach of the Treaty “ends” the Treaty; it is NOT a secession that leaves a seceded Scottish state and a Continuer UK state. Scotland will thus inherit a per capita share of UK debt and per capita share of UK assets.

      This is not the declared thinking of Richard Murphy or Tim Rideout, nor the wider body of opinion which believes Scotland will be debt free on the day of Independence.

      Our “Scottish Currency people” are not on the same page as our Constitutional people who would declare the Treaty of Union breached.

      I “think” the secessionist route is easier and will require less negotiation, on paper, but I am not convinced Scotland actually can secede from a bilateral Treaty without ending the product, (the UK), which that bilateral Treaty created. When Scotland exits the UK, there simply no longer is a UK.

      As Christine Grahame succinctly put it in her famous Westminster speech, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a_f4-zEbI8, when one party sees the marriage as over, the marriage is at an end.

      A “Continuer” UK State would require elements of the marriage to survive the divorce, and I’m not sure the law will accommodate that irregularity.

    206. Geri says:

      Every country seems to have a set period of residence.
      It’s only Andy who has a problem with it.

      Indy voters are waking up. The franchise was discussed on a podcast I’d listen to a while back. All more or less saying the same. The *anyone who lives here* is an open invite to skew the result.

      So a wee snotty student who’s no intention of staying here permanently should be allowed a vote on its future.

    207. Andy Ellis says:

      @Scot Finlayson 8.50 pm

      Norway is an independent state. Scotland is not. Voting in national elections or for constitutional amendments in an already independent state is not the same as voting for self determination in a country that doesn’t (yet) have citizens.

      When we’re independent we can set our citizenship criteria just like other countries. The vast majority of other countries which have held self determination referendums enfranchised all those resident, they didn’t set artificial “before the fact” citizenship criteria.

      The international best practice Geri is attempting to mis-apply @ 8.57 pm
      supports the approach progressive civic nationalists advance, not the one you and other regressive nativists push for.

      Norway voted for independence from Sweden in 1905. 99% voted in favour, but women were excluded from voting. I doubt there were all that many “incomers” in early 20th century Norway: I wonder if the most democratic country in the world excluded them….?

    208. Dan says:

      @ Breeks

      This is quite old now but has been posted btl here previously.

      https://ideasforeurope.eu/activity/publication/the-internal-enlargement-of-the-european-union/

      Page 64

      “ROADMAP FOR SUCCESSION IN EUROPEAN UNION MEMBERSHIP IN THE CASE OF MEMBER STATE’S SECESSION OR DISSOLUTION

      Declaration of independence from a state arising from a member state’s secession or dissolution following a democratic process.

      Notification of succession, from a European Union member state by the state emerging from a member state’s secession or dissolution. This act would notify of the new situation as well as the new state’s wish to succeed the predecessor state as a European Union member as a new state complying with the principles and conditions required for being a Union member with a model of market economy and required administrative capacity. The new state would commit the in accepting the entire flow of the European Union, and would want to immediately initiate the process of adaptation intended to ensure that European Union law is brought into line with the new situation, together with the commitment to adopt all acts that allow it to fulfi l all the international obligations assumed by states as European Union members.

      Act adopted by the European Union to recognise a new state’s succession arising from the secession or dissolution of another European Union member state as a Union member. This would mean the recognition of the predecessor state, if it should continue to exist and of the successor state(s) as members of the European Union and would have to contain the initial provision needed to guarantee the operation of the Union.

      Establishment of the transitory arrangement:
      — Application of the principle of continuity in acts not requiring changes
      or amendment to the acts of secondary law to enable:
      — The continuity of uniform application of the material provisions of the
      European Union’s legal system throughout the new state’s territory.”

    209. Dan says:

      Obviously that only applied when we were EU members, so what the fuck was Sturgeon doing pissing away time…

    210. Robert G says:

      Breeks @ 4.50pm – Regarding population change and any possible future referendum, I really do hope that the voting franchise is not going to be the same as that used in the 2014 referendum. Here in Sutherland over the last few years there has been quite a dramatic increase in the numbers of folk moving up from RUK – mainly England. Properties coming on to the market are often under offer almost immediately and going for well above the asking price. Locals, especially first time buyers just cannot compete with people who will sell a property in the south of England for several times the cost of a similar property here. I did hear that two properties in Dornoch last summer went for 100k over the asking price. Many come up to retire which then puts even more pressure on already stretched local services. The other problem is that once they have settled in, many tend to be quite NIMBY like and object to developments that would otherwise create local employment. The SNP need to wake up!

    211. Andy Ellis says:

      Every country seems to have a set period of residence.
      It’s only Andy who has a problem with it.

      Not for self determination referendums they don’t. Go check. One or two have imposed residence criteria of 24 months, the vast majority had none.

      So a wee snotty student who’s no intention of staying here permanently should be allowed a vote on its future.

      OK: so how many does that add up to? How about second home owners? Does it offset the number of votes you’ll lose by being seen as Trump style regressive nativists? How will you know?

    212. Republicofscotland says:

      ” Voting in national elections or for constitutional amendments in an already independent state is not the same as voting for self determination in a country that doesn’t (yet) have citizens.”

      Another wee gem given legitimacy in the minds of the composer but nowhere else in the real world.

    213. John Main says:

      @ Republicofscotland says:14 November, 2022 at 7:33 pm

      Main.

      The UK the only place in the world that actively destroyed its economy and damaged countless businesses via Brexit.

      Well, natch, the clue is in the name: Brexit

      Stands to reason it is the only place in the world it applies to with a name like that.

      Look, Republic, you and quite a few others of the colonised on here who believe Scotland has no future out of the EU, need to stop ignoring the copper-bottomed fact that the war and Covid are the biggest destroyers of Scotland’s, the UK’s, the EU’s, China’s, and just about every other economy in the entire world.

      To constantly bang on about Brexit while ignoring these other elephants in the fucking room is just plain daft.

      And so is believing that Scots are so dim that they will swallow the narrative that all of our economic problems are because of Brexit.

      They’re naw.

    214. Geri says:

      I agree Breeks?

      & Brexit & no parliament cross party consent to the power grab was the ideal time to strike.
      Sturgeon is useless. Too busy reading her books & according to the ppl who’ve left Holyrood – it’s stuffed full of useless advisors who are only there to thwart or give bad advice. That’s why I’m an advocate to reconvene the Scottish parliament & tear up the WM rule book regards Scotland Act. It no longer applies. The Unionist government it was created for is over.

    215. John Main says:

      @ Dan says:14 November, 2022 at 9:20 pm

      Still picking my jaw up off the floor:

      The continuity of uniform application of the material provisions of the
      European Union’s legal system throughout the new state’s territory.

      Unbelievable that campaigners for Indy intend almost on Day 1 to destroy what remains of Scotland’s unique heritage just so that they can get into the EU.

      Gobsmacked doesn’t do it justice.

    216. Andy Ellis says:

      Another wee gem given legitimacy in the minds of the composer but nowhere else in the real world.

      The idea that a vatnik like you is anywhere close to knowing about the real world is the funniest thing I’ve heard all day.

    217. Republicofscotland says:

      “The idea that a vatnik like you is anywhere close to knowing about the real world is the funniest thing I’ve heard all day.”

      Now, now, now Mr Ellis, you’d do well to remember what the Rev said about name calling, you wouldn’t want to get banned now, think of how much we’d all miss you.

    218. Scott says:

      Each case turns on its own merits in Scotland, and the franchise can be restricted to those born in Scotland. Mr Argument is hell-bent on forcing precedent as the central determinant when in fact it doesn’t bind a court in Scotland, nor can it bind the franchise for any future referendum. Scots law can decide for itself, and will.

      Code of Good Practice on Referendums [An international community production] explicitly states

      1.2. Electoral registers

      Fulfilment of the following criteria is essential if electoral registers are to be reliable:

      i. electoral registers must be permanent or refer to a register that is constantly updated (population register or register of births, marriages and deaths);

      ii. there must be regular up-dates, at least once a year. Where voters are not registered automatically, registration must be possible over a relatively long period;

      iii. electoral registers must be public;

      iv. there should be an administrative procedure – subject to judicial control – or a judicial procedure, allowing for the registration of a voter who was not registered; the registration should not take place as a result of a decision taken by the polling station on election day;

      v. a similar procedure should allow voters to have incorrect inscriptions amended within a reasonable time;

      vi. provision may be made for a supplementary register as a means of giving the vote to persons who have moved or reached statutory voting age since final publication of the register

    219. Republicofscotland says:

      Why am I not surprised by Sturgeon the betrayers actions here, I’d be very worried about my young children in Scotland in this day and age, whilst the Judas is in office.

      Can’t access the whole story it’s behind a paywall.

      “Nicola Sturgeon’s officials helped a transgender charity accused of harming children gain a foothold in Scotland to lobby for gender recognition reform and the continued use puberty blockers.”

      https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nicola-sturgeon-helped-mermaids-charity-get-foothold-in-scotland-7wpchbzz9

    220. Geri says:

      Brexiteer business was on the telly the other day. They’ve either moved to an EU country or they have went bust due to haulage delays, paper work, customs & if the paperwork isn’t correct the whole consignment is rejected. Thier custom has drastically been hit because they’re told they’ll just get it elsewhere. No delays, no hassle & they can’t compete with that.
      There’s no investment because no one wants to invest in closed off little England so Truss had to try lure them in with tax cuts & when it backfired so did she.

    221. Effijy says:

      U.K. Brexit will cause double the economic catastrophe than Covid.

      Haven’t you notice that the N Ireland economy is doing better than the main land hence the
      reason the Tories must get them out the EU or be confronted on why money laundering and tax avoidance for the rich was put before the benefit of the majority.

      PS The London stock exchange was the richest in Europe and now Paris has overtaken it.

      Don’t you love the French taking £54 million to stop refugees coming here in small boats and yet the number doing so has doubled this year.
      Tory solution- give them another £9 million to use an extra 100 fake French police offices
      in eye masks you can’t spot 30 foot boats being transported by road nor batches of 30-40 refugees grouping in isolated locations.

    222. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Republicofscotland (9.46) –

      I have no idea what a ‘vatnik’ is (*) but probably fair to say it’s not a compliment. In which case it’s a ‘personal attack’.

      We were all warned, explicitly, to pack it in. That was only a few days ago.

      But Ellis, as predicted, is gradually reverting to form. He seems to believe that the rules don’t apply to him.

      *Just checked it:

      Vatnik or vatnyk (Russian: ??????) is a pejorative, used in Russia and other post-Soviet states based on an Internet meme that was introduced in 2011 by Anton Chadskiy, which denotes a steadfast jingoistic follower of propaganda from the Russian Government.

    223. Dan says:

      @ John Main at 9:41 pm

      Much as it clearly pains you, the trouble is your particular view of the EU is a minority held position, and therefore not aligned with the majority of Scots. You can bitch and moan all you want about it but where was your “show me the money” answers for yer “Brexit”? Just some shite slapped on the side of a red bus was enough for you.
      You clearly haven’t spoken to or understand how leaving the single market is affecting many businesses in Scotland, blame covid and war all you like, but it is undeniable that leaving single market is having an effect.
      The other point is that the chance to re-ask the question of should Scotland return to self-governing status only really got kick-started again due to the material change in circumstances the EU Ref created.
      Aye, the EU has it’s issues, but you’d rather we’d have zero protection or support from the EU and just exist under unfettered Tory rule.

    224. Effijy says:

      TV advert advising those who are struggling to pay their home energy bills to get in touch
      with their energy providers?

      If you do so you will be forced on to pre payment meter that used more expensive tariffs so that you get even less energy for what little money you have.

      You then help the energy provider by cutting yourself off when the funds run out.

      If the chancellor states that Everyone will be paying more in tax that means that Nurses, Junior Doctors, Railway and Maritime Workers, Teachers and Lecturers, Civil Servents,
      The Police etc who just named the percentage pay rises they demand must now withdraw that figure and increase it to end the continuous drop in the standard of living.

      I hope Mick Lynch ups the anti on his members demands and the nurses walk out.

    225. Geri says:

      Republic
      They’re in court. The transcripts are on twitter. It’s all shocking stuff. Mermaids are turning gays into eunuchs with notions Thier in the wrong body & are grooming online. Someone put a clip up on twitter where a young boy was still dazed & confused by his surgery while the women in the video laughed there wasn’t much to cut. Someone said it was one of the women from mermaids.

      Eunuchs is a thing on the kink scene. For what reason best not known. A permanent toy/slave? & The young girls, well they’ve not to reproduce so we’ll fry thier insides. Yet these same ppl say conversion therapy is barbaric! No logic there. FFS it’s been an education & SNP is right there cheering & funding this shit on.

    226. Ian Brotherhood says:

      New group helping vaccine-injured in Scotland:

      ScottishVIG
      @scottish_vig

      ‘Scottish support group sharing research and potential treatments for those potentially injured by the Covid19 vaccines and raising awareness of this issue.’

    227. James Che says:

      Scott,

      Your the one not getting the point, for instance you speak from Westminsters dates for the terms of agreement to the treaty of the union,
      you also speak from Westminster point of view that all laws from Englands parliament are the same in Scotlands at that time period, or now for that matter, this is not so.

      Scotland did not agree to the terms until 1707, as england Calendar dates were different than Scotlands, that was not amended by Westminster parliament until years later. When England missed 11 day of its legal status,

      That aside, I did not miss what you say regards parliament personalities being retained, politically or personally.
      In Scotland we still have a existing 1707 Scottish parliament under Sine Die.

      In England the Westminster parliament considers it extinguished the Scottish parliament of 1707 because Scotland (agreed) the terms of the treaty of union,

      Here lies the first controversy,
      The Scottish parliament is not recognised by English Westminster parliament as being a LIVE political entity in Scotland.

      But here in Scotland the Scottish parliament closed its doors under Scots law ( not English Law) with Sine die,

      So the Scottish parliament is not closed or extinguished by the treaty of the union terms, as the UK parliament site States in 2022, but is simply on a legal break in its session.
      The Scottish parliament is more than a metaphorical personality.

      However under the terms and conditions agreed by and set out in the treaty of union by Westminster parliament the Scottish parliament did not enter the new British Westminster parliament politically, in legal personality or metaphorically as Westminster states in England the Scottish parliament ceased to exist as soon as it agreed to parliament union,

      ie, before the treaty was enacted. Before the British parliament opened. The Scottish parliament was extinguished in England from taking its place in the British parliament ( at the beginning of the agreed) treaty,
      The Scottish parliament that was extinguished in England….just by Agreeing to a treaty, cannot function as a Scottish parliament jointly with the English parliament Within Westminster.

      The terms and agreement of the treaty of Union by Westminster cancel The Scottish parliament from entering into Westminster as a Scottish Parliament in all form including legal personality.

      The Scottish parliament did not retain a legal personality in England once the treaty of union was agreed to.

      The controversy of the Scottish parliament ceasing to exist in Englands Westminsters eyes and laws, is not the same as the Scottish parliament ceasing to exist in Scotland under Scots law of Sine die.
      The Scottish parliament still exists, it is not extinguished, and can reconvene when it wishes.

      There is a further controversy to your application of logic,
      If Scotland parliament existed at the timeline you suggest, and England ratified Scotlands side of the Treaty in 1706.
      Prior to Scotland agreeing to the treaty of the union in 1707
      If we take you and the UK parliament dates at its word, then the Treaty of union was annulled and made void by extinguishing the Scottish parliament in 1706.

    228. James Che says:

      No matter how the legal dates are shuffled between the different Calendar Date of Scotland and England.

      The question still arises,

      If Westminster/ uk parliament states that by the Scottish 1707 parliament JUST AGREEING to the Treaty of the union the Scottish Parliament extinguished itself.

      NO Scottish parliament in any form legal or personal has entered Westminster parliament.

    229. Scott says:

      @ James Cheyne

      You’re right that Scotland’s Parliament still exists and still has the right to meet. Neither Act gives the new legislature the exclusive right to make or amend the laws of Scotland.

      You’re wrong about the significance of 1706 – as I and others have said repeatedly. The session of Parliament in which the Union with Scotland Act 1706 was passed began in 1706, but the Act itself was passed in 1707 and after the passing of Union with England Act 1707.

    230. Andy Ellis says:

      Each case turns on its own merits in Scotland, and the franchise can be restricted to those born in Scotland. Mr Argument is hell-bent on forcing precedent as the central determinant when in fact it doesn’t bind a court in Scotland, nor can it bind the franchise for any future referendum. Scots law can decide for itself, and will.

      This that “can” happen and what “will” happen are two very different things. Even assuming there was a groundswell of support amongst what Gareth Wardell refers to as indigenous Scots, there’s no guarantee the independence movement as a whole would automatically change the 2014 pattern franchise.

      There’s also the matter of securing international recognition of course. Many of the nativists appear supremely indifferent to that, or have even opined that it wouldn’t matter. “Scott” of course has fanciful notions that we secure independence by petitioning the courts, and loudly calls for someone else to do. Odd that I’ve never seen or heard any legal authority or constitutional expert – whether in Scotland or anywhere else – back his “cunning plan” up?

      Why it’s almost as if he has no idea what he’s talking about, isn’t it alert readers? Much as he and James Che like to argue the toss about James Che’s amateur hour ramblings, they seem t be cut from much the same cloth. Pontificating about stuff they claim to have researched in huge detail, but either haven’t understood or like to assert are silver bullets.

      The franchise is unlikely to be changed in any substantial way, because there’s little popular appetite for doing so and the political costs would outweigh any gain. That remains as true now as it did in 2014, or when the issue was first raised in here a year or more ago.

    231. Andy Ellis says:

      @Brotherhood 10.02 pm

      Why is vatnik any worse than (say) “yoon”, or “the betrayer”?

      It’s unarguable that Republic of Scotland is in fact: a steadfast jingoistic follower of propaganda from the Russian Government.

      If fair comment is going to be banned, BTL might be pretty quiet.

    232. Hatuey says:

      Do we have a word, Russian or otherwise, for a nose-picking coward who from the comfort of his plastic armchair supports US warmongering and aggression, regardless of the consequences for innocent people?

    233. Ruby says:

      Hatuey says:
      15 November, 2022 at 9:16 am

      Do we have a word, Russian or otherwise, for a nose-picking coward who from the comfort of his plastic armchair supports US warmongering and aggression, regardless of the consequences for innocent people?

      ————————————————————-

      Yes!

      NB No bold today!

    234. Hatuey says:

      Interesting exchange between Scott and James Che… if what James is saying is true, there’s a major sequencing issue at the heart of the UK Union.

      Of course, they’ll just ignore it or trivialise it in some way. And the usual types up here will bow to power, as they always do, which is what it all comes down to in the end.

    235. Hatuey says:

      Does it begin with a C, Ruby?

      Btw, I find that much easier to read… no kidding.

    236. Ruby says:

      I’ve been trying to upload an archived link to

      ‘Nicola Sturgeon helped Mermaids charity get foothold in Scotland’

      without success.

      Ill try this:

      https://tinyurl.com/bdezvy7r

    237. Hatuey says:

      I watched some coverage of the “liberation” of Kherson on YouTube last night. I even watched channel 4 news which is unusual for me. In all the coverage they talked about the people of this hugely important city taking to the streets and celebrating but I couldn’t find one clip that had more than 20 or 30 people in it.

    238. Ruby says:

      Hatuey says:
      15 November, 2022 at 9:29 am

      Does it begin with a C, Ruby?

      Btw, I find that much easier to read… no kidding.

      ______________________________________________________
      Ruby says:

      NB from now on.

      ‘Republicofscotland says:
      Can’t access the whole story it’s behind a paywall.’

      The link to the ‘Nicola Sturgeon helped Mermaids charity get foothold in Scotland’ was for ROS.

      Anyone else having problems with archive links?

    239. Ruby says:

      https://tinyurl.com/2p8vrnru

      They Paused Puberty, but Is There a Cost?

    240. Ruby says:

      https://tinyurl.com/mryv5hdn

      Self-ID activists ‘will abuse hate speech law’

    241. Ruby says:

      https://tinyurl.com/5n6nubbj

      Human sex is not determined at birth and can legally change, SNP argues in court

    242. Alf Baird says:

      Andy Ellis @ 7:59 am

      “The franchise is unlikely to be changed in any substantial way, because there’s little popular appetite for doing so”

      The franchise has nothing to do with ‘popularity’. A local government franchise is merely preferred by the colonial power and its administration at Holyrood which is tasked with preventing independence. A local government franchise with no ‘secondary criteria’ achieves this.

      Post-referendum data and census data confirms that the anti-independence vote is being continually boosted primarily through in-migration from rest-UK. This will continue so long as anyone with an address here can vote to give away Scottish sovereignty.

      The ‘civic nationalism’ meme is negated by the fact that: a) as you state, Scotland cannot offer national citizenship until independent and; b) ‘No’ voters from other countries are clearly rejecting the offer of Scottish citizenship and are also actively blocking that right to indigenous Scots, i.e. they have no ‘sense of belonging’ to our nation, the latter a condition of ‘civic nationalism’.

      https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/08/22/determinants-of-independence-self-determination/

    243. Andy Ellis says:

      @Hatuey

      Nothing as apposite or with the same ring to it. Of course the hypocrisy of an anonymous contributor labelling someone else as a coward won’t be lost on alert readers.

      A better educated over-achieving sort would doubtless be able to come up with the right term, but then you’re not very enamoured of educated folk from memory are you?

      I’m not sure I’ve encountered many Dr Strangelove types commenting BTL here, but the usual suspects in here are inordinately fond of whataboutery in place of actual debate. The tempting rhetorical ploy of othering opponents for “supporting US aggression” which they habitually deploy is simply a type of hypocrisy charge that proves nothing other than their lack of good faith arguments and sophomoric outlook.

    244. Andy Ellis says:

      @Alf Baird 9.46 am

      I’d disagree that the franchise has nothing to do with popularity. If you and other nativists want to change the precedent set in 2014, you need to make your case and convince those who will be responsible for arranging the terms of the next referendum that the existing franchise should be changed. That would then have to be accepted by the UK government in the new “Edinburgh Agreement” for indyref2 (assuming such a thing ever happens).

      However much you and others disagree with the current franchise, or feel it is unfair to “indigenous” Scots, many in the movement disagree with you. They probably still represent the majority. Civic nationalism may not appeal to you, but ditching it would also have a cost. It would also be at odds with international precedent and the example of other pro independence campaigns and self determination referendums elsewhere. These have overwhelmingly used residence criteria, not birth, ethnicity, length of residence or “future citizenship” criteria.

      I don’t accept that you have the figures or data to back up your assertions either. You have no idea what the impact of changing the franchise would be on how people would vote. Restricting the franchise definitely has the potential to lose the movement votes. How convinced are you that the number you would gain by disenfranchising some random class of “New Scots” would offset the number of people you would lose who disapproved of the switch to what many will regard as a regressive policy, at odds with the whole ethos of the civic nationalism we want to promote in the early days of a better nation.

      It will be very difficult if not impossible to point to any accurate polling or data which will support your claims that Scotland is being swamped by anti independence New Scots, or temporary residents. Other than polling them, how do you know whether New Scots will support independence or not? They may be more likely to do so now post brexit and the current economic omnishambles than their equivalents were in 2014.

      In any case, even if it is clearly demonstrable that New Scots tend to oppose independence more than support it, there are other approaches to offsetting that (increasing turnout and convincing more native Scots to vote yes for example) quite apart from the arguments originally advanced by Rev Stu on Twitter last year, which still apply: franchise restriction is counter productive politically and represents the answer to a question that only a small minority have asked or really care about.

    245. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Live on Scottish Parliament TV right now:

      1. Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: The Committee will consider the Bill at Stage 2 (Day 1).

      https://www.scottishparliament.tv/meeting/equalities-human-rights-and-civil-justice-committee-november-15-2022

    246. John Main says:

      @ Dan says:14 November, 2022 at 10:10 pm

      Much as it clearly pains you, the trouble is your particular view of the EU is a minority held position, and therefore not aligned with the majority of Scots

      My view is that there are no independent countries in the EU, and that the obvious conclusion is that the majority of Scots are not too bothered about the concept of Indy being peddled on here.

      You clearly haven’t spoken to or understand how leaving the single market is affecting many businesses in Scotland, blame covid and war all you like, but it is undeniable that leaving single market is having an effect.

      Says who? I don’t deny Brexit has caused problems, but you and others constantly deny there are other factors in play. When I point out that just about every country in the entire fucking world is undergoing economic troubles due to these other much more significant factors, you just change the subject.

      Aye, the EU has it’s issues, but you’d rather we’d have zero protection or support from the EU and just exist under unfettered Tory rule.

      Oh FFS Dan. We had umpteen years of EU rule and things just got worse. Maybes you didn’t notice, but lots of other people did. Get it intae yer heid. The EU is not a charity. A rich, independent Scotland will pay dearly for EU membership.

    247. George Ferguson says:

      I was wondering what will happen if Harvie and Slater lose the vote on leadership of the Scottish Greens because of their junior ministerial positions? And obvious disconnect with their party membership will happen if they decide to retain their Scot Gov posts. A conundrum for them both. Retain the privileges of a ministerial post or serve the aspirations and policies of their party. And what will be the impact of their resignations on the Scot Gov coalition? Over to the membership of the Scottish Greens.

    248. Republicofscotland says:

      Ian @10.02pm.

      Yes Ian when he can’t win, or prove a point wrong he resorts to his usual ad hominem attacks. It’s pathetic if you ask me.

    249. Republicofscotland says:

      Gordon Jackson in my opinion was set up and recorded to discredit him.

      ALEX Salmond’s trial lawyer is facing a five-month suspension from practicing law after he named the former first minister’s accusers on a train.

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F23124997.alex-salmonds-lawyer-gordon-jackson-facing-five-month-suspension%2F

    250. John Main says:

      @ Hatuey says:15 November, 2022 at 9:16 am

      Do we have a word, Russian or otherwise, for a nose-picking coward who from the comfort of his plastic armchair …

      Dunno Hatuey. How would you like to be addressed?

      I watched some coverage of the “liberation” of Kherson on YouTube last night. I even watched channel 4 news which is unusual for me

      Careful Hatuey. Your ongoing ability to just make stuff up could be compromised by exposure to reality.

      Remember, ignorance is bliss.

    251. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Seems that a member of the public present at the committee meeting linked to at 10.42 was asked to remove a scarf (purple,green) or leave. A committee member noted that this was being highlighted via social media and asked chair for an explanation (just before the break). Chair closed the session, said that will be discussed ‘in private’. And all the while, Maggie Chapman’s sitting there with her rainbow lanyard.

    252. Republicofscotland says:

      Ian I was just about to comment on that, forcing a woman to remove her scarf at the Scottish parliament probably because it resembles the suffragettes colours, real women are under attack in Scotland, and the betrayer professes to care about them, which is bollocks.

      https://twitter.com/Obsolesence/status/1592447547263844352

      https://preciousasapearl.com/blogs/news/suffragette-and-what-they-stood-for

    253. Hatuey says:

      “Turkey alleges US complicity in deadly Istanbul bombing, rejects condolence statement”
      https://thehill.com/policy/international/3734308-turkey-alleges-us-complicity-in-deadly-istanbul-bombing-rejects-condolence-statement/

      Quite a situation that, isn’t it… a NATO member accusing another NATO member of complicity in a terrorist attack.

      America’s losing its shit, as they say, and I don’t see how aircraft carriers and jet fighters will repair lost credibility in a world that is sick of war and hypocrisy.

      In the background, inflation in the US is at a 40 year high — the quantitively eased chickens are coming home to roost.

      Nobody knows how those chickens will get along with the big elephant in the room, US national debt, which, in a matter of a few years, will absorb every dime the government raises in taxes.

      And that makes me wonder what was said at the meeting with Xi and Biden yesterday. Talk about a tough gig for a translator — how do you say “ooops, I pissed the couch again” in Cantonese?

    254. Colin the Keelie says:

      What I want to know is: who will be the next indy supporter accused of trumped up crimes by the Caligula deviant Scottish Government?

      Sorry: I meant to say coalition devolution Scottish Government.

    255. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Republicofscotland –

      Are you watching it?

      They’re getting right into the meat of it now – how does one ‘prove’ they’ve been ‘living as a woman’ (or a man for that matter).

      ????

      I don’t envy Shona Robison but she should never have got herself in this situation to begin with. It’s farcical.

    256. Merganser says:

      Have recently been reading about Germany in the 1930’s. Found the following phrases amongst others:

      ‘Severe censorship was the order, with even artistic expression being controlled’.

      ‘School syllabi were altered to preach racial biology, and settle prejudice deeply into young minds’

      Ring any bells?

    257. James che says:

      The 1706 English parliament session ( within) the time frame you suggest started in 1706 as the actual ENGLISH PARLIAMENT SESSION and ended its SESSION In 1708 As and within the BRITISH PARLIAMENT. In keeping with the English Calendar.
      Scotlands side of The treaty of the union terms and agreement was ratified by the ENGLISH PARLIAMENT PARLIAMENT in 1706 in keeping with the English Calendar used in England.

      However the SCOTTISH PARLIAMENT ratified the English terms and agreements of the treaty of the union in 1707, in keeping with the Scottish Calendar used in Scotland and most other Countries at that timeline.

      The ENGLISH PARLIAMENT still claim today by simply ( Agreeing) to the terms of the treaty of the union the SCOTTISH PARLIAMENT EXTINGUISHED ITSELF,
      Why does the English parliament of Westminster approach the treaty with the consideration that the Scottish parliament session was extinguished in 1707?

      While under the same terms and agreement the ENGLISH PARLIAMENT SESSION did not cease until 1708 in keeping with the ENGLISH Calendar.

      Under your approach there are anomalies, due to the two alternative Calendars used in both Countries at that time.

      The English parliament continued its session until 1708.
      The Scottish parliament ceased its session in 1707.

      Only one of the two parliaments entered the new British parliament construct as a active parliament.
      Englands parliament from 1706 —1708.
      The Scottish parliament had ceased to exist in 1707 in England

      The Scottish parliament had been promised it could enter the Treaty of the union and the new British parliament as joint signatures to the terms and agreements of that Treaty.
      However Englands old Parliament and todays UK parliament view it as the old Scottish parliament that been ceased,extinguished.

      The old Scottish parliament was deceived into believing it would enter the British parliament.
      It never did proceed as the terms and agreements of the Treaty of union State.

      By the time the British parliament opened its official doors The Scottish parliament had ceased to exist in England by agreeing to the terms of the Treaty in 1706 in the English Calendar.

      Meanwhile the Scottish parliament in 1707 (Scottish Calendar) had closed its doors under ” Sine die” in Scotland.

      Under the English version or the Scottish version the Scottish parliament was no longer a Active Parliament in 1707 and did not proceed as so, into the British parliament, nor did it complete its journey under the terms of the Treaty for a joint Parliament in the Westminster of Scotland and England.

      The old English Parliament of Westminster did however from 1706__1708.

      Scotland is not and has not been in the British Parliament from 1707 onwards,
      As Englands parliament believes the Scottish parliament was extinguished when by, (agreeing) to the treaty of union in 1706.

    258. Alison says:

      Delighted you are back Rev and will be donating again.



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