The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland


By hook or by Cook

Posted on January 23, 2018 by

This is an interesting one. Almost 40 years on from the event, Scottish politics is still plagued by micro-brained Labour types insisting that the SNP “ushered in” Margaret Thatcher after the devolution referendum of 1979 was sabotaged by a Labour MP.

SNP supporters counter that this is complete bollocks, largely because it’s complete bollocks. James Callaghan, the Labour PM at the time, blamed 34 of his own MPs for bringing his government down, by supporting an amendment from Islington South and Finsbury Labour MP George Cunningham which blocked the creation of a Scottish Assembly even though it won the referendum by a narrow margin.

(Cunningham resigned from Labour two years later and subsequently joined the SDP, but in 2012 the Daily Express dragged him out to demand that the same “40% rule” be applied to the indyref.)

History, though, has forgotten someone else who was apparently the true architect of the fix, to the extent that we’d never heard about it until now.

Let’s find out more, shall we?

Print Friendly

    1 Trackbacks/Pingbacks

    1. 23 01 18 11:56

      By hook or by Cook | speymouth

    552 to “By hook or by Cook”

    1. Dingbat says:

      Labour always the enemy of Scotland pure and simple

    2. Portjim says:

      As with the treaty of union, Scotland was sold out for sectional / party interests. This has been our weakness for centuries – we are our own worst enemies.
      It is telling that Cook didn’t have the courage to own his treachery – the only conclusion to be drawn is that he knew it was wrong!

    3. TheItalianJob says:

      Yes I remember this well. I voted for devolution but we were cheated out of it by this 40% rule.

      Dispicable.

    4. bobajock says:

      My dad switched to SNP after that 40% crap, and thus my political awakening began.

      I had never seen him fume at a canvasser before (A Labour one). I was still a kid, and realised what had happened after some explanation by my dad based on an explanation of basic *UK* democracy.

      Sigh.

    5. Ken500 says:

      Scotland left in deprivation and poverty while the equivalent of £Billions of revenues went South. To be wasted. Kept secret under the Official Secrets Act. Illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion. The unionists politicians are liars. Have been since 1928. A bunch of lying imbeciles. They care nothing about other people. Just care about lining their pockets on other’s misery. They are despicable. Supping with the hedge fund manager killing and maiming millions of people. Every word they utter is a lie.

      Do not let them win. Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for EU membership. Vote for common decency. Stand up To protect rights.

    6. manandboy says:

      Marvelous job, Stu. Robin Cook, eh, hiding in the Labour party but all the time he was just another forked-tongued Tory collaborator.

    7. Lanarkist says:

      My first opportunity to vote in Schroedingers Referendum, we won but didn’t win!

      The West Lothian question was also a red herring, they could have adjusted Westminster by having English votes on English legislation that matched devolved areas of authority or set up an English Assembly to deal with these issues seperately for England. EVEL’s older cousin if you like.

      Dare they try this again?

    8. revjimbob says:

      The leadership of the Labour Party in Scotland had already shown where their loyalties lay by suppressing the McCrone report.

    9. Luigi says:

      It’s about time that old twister, Robin Cook was outed.

      Remember the plaudits he got for resigning on the decision to invade Iraq in 2003? It;s part of Labour folklore. Out of principle, or revenge? Mmmmmmm.

      Worth remembering that he had already been sidelined in 2001 when he lost the job of Foreign Secretary to Jack Straw. Did he really resign over Iraq in principle, or was it just another sneaky way to have a kick at the old boss (as the door slammed shut)?

    10. manandboy says:

      Then, as now, given the choice of doing good or bad to Scotland and it’s people, the London Unionist parties will always choose what’s best for England which spells bad news for Scotland.

      Like the deer and the grouse on Scotland’s hills, the Scots are just fodder for the gun of English self-interest.

    11. Thomas Valentine says:

      I’m sick of smug Labour careerist only concerned about their bank balance and swanning around London restaurants in between TV appearance. They have always had a vested interest in poverty and decay. All the better to tie up the votes. What total contempt they show for us. Yet old grannies still cling to them.

    12. HandandShrimp says:

      Interesting that Cook had suggested 33%. I think that was pretty much what was achieved on the day. Cunningham increasing it to 40% was still the knife in the back.

      Politicians, what tangled webs they weave. Some Labour idiots still pathetically blame their 18 years in the wilderness on the fall out from that betrayal. Their inability to accept responsibility for their own actions saying much about their integrity. At least at the moment they are playing these games of betrayal and back stabbing internally and not bothering anyone else.

    13. jimnarlene says:

      And yet Cook would go on to claim, that he considered UDI because of Thatcher.

      Never, ever trust a Westminster/London based party.
      They only care about, themselves, Westminster and party.

    14. Sinky says:

      Excellent work again.

      Also worth reading more on 1979 at

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/36-years-of-discontent/

      and

      Roy Hattersley “The Party’s Over” on Callaghan and Labour in 1979, The Guardian 22 March 2009

      http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/mar/22/james-callaghan-labour-1979-thatcher

      The SNP Westminster MPs stance in 1979 was based on a principled position following the Callaghan government’s refusal to implement the majority Yes vote in the Scottish Assembly referendum.

      The extent to which some Labour anti Devolutionists in 1979, which included Brian Wilson and Johann Lamont, were prepared to go can be summed up in the words of Patrick Cosgrave in his book ‘The Lives of Enoch Powell’ when he wrote “Confidential exchanges took place between Thatcher’s aides and a number of Labour back benchers hostile to Devolution”

      The survival of the Labour government was therefore in the hands of its own MPs. If Callaghan’s government had pushed ahead with the Assembly legislation, it would have been supported by the SNP in Parliament. The reason it did not do so is because it became clear that a substantial number of Labour MPs were prepared to vote against Callaghan.

      The SNP did not “bring in Margaret Thatcher “, the Tories got in because they obtained two million more English voters than Labour. Following the ‘winter of discontent’ and widespread strikes, English voters abandoned the Labour Party which had not a hope of being re-elected in 1979.

      Labour’s anti Devolution zealots, such as Neil Kinnock, well aware that a Thatcher victory was on the cards, implicitly preferred this scenario to the establishment of a Scottish Assembly, and the survival of their own government for the remaining six months it had left.

      Most hypocritical of all was when the then highly respected Lord Douglas Home promised that an incoming Tory government, which at the time had the support of 31% of Scottish voters, would produce a better devolution package if Scots voted No in 1979, a pledge which was not honoured by Mrs Thatcher.

      That was the inspiration for Gordon Brown’s late minute vow in 2014.

    15. Bob Mack says:

      It is always worth remembering that Labour ,Tories, and Lib Dem, all demand that Scotland remain in the Union. With that in mind you can guarantee that their masters in London will not allow free thinkers of any description to apply for election here in Scotland under the name of their party.

      This has always been the case . They are chosen by selection committee to oppose freedom, not side with it.

      Everything Labour has done over the past 50 years especially in Scotland highlights this fact. Think of Mags Curran, Tom Gallagher et Al. Vehemently opposed to independence under the guise it would ruin us, whilst every other similar sized nation with resources thrives.

      Labour do not have sufficient members in Scotland to keep the machine in motion. Labour party jobs would go,offices shut, if not for being buoyed up by English Labour donations.They are kept servile due to that.

      No, the truth is simple indeed. LABOUR in any guise has betrayed the trust of the Scottish people afforded them by election. They serve no Scot. They serve the interests of Westminster and the establishment because they have become part of the establishment.

    16. Fred says:

      Was Robin Cook a victim of Blair’s cunning “World Leader!” plan & met Special Branch op’s on the hill?

    17. Les Wilson says:

      Nothing new in labour duplicity, then or now. As far as Labour in general is concerned Scotland was used just to add to Westminster votes but hardly a successful ploy.They brought misery to Scotland and have no shame about it. Nothing got better for us under labour but the benefited massively by running the Councils and only getting the country heavily in debt via PFI.

      They did nothing for poverty, Glasgow in particular kept on the breadline. However, their graft is legendary, jobs for the boys, iffy land deals, corruption everywhere.

      Make no mistake, Labour is a Unionist entity, in league with the Tories and other Unionist parties to keep us down. If we do not get started on Indy now, we will lose everything.

      See this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6G1v3Ll-hdg we need to wake up right now.

    18. David MacGille-Mhuire says:

      Still at it after all these years, in one shape or form, are BritLab and their Unionist Front buddies.

      Their variation of the Wermacht retreat on the Russian Front, and we all know how, minus the Western spin,that ended for the Nazi imperialists’ hubristic project. So, too, will it also end for their lebensraum grab at the ballot box when the sovereign Scottish citizenry add a metaphorical Sans Culottes soupcon to the mix of their final repudiation via the YES movement.

      Indeed, am more than happy to chip into any crowd funding of their bus fares south of the Tweed should they decide to up sticks and flit to their dear green and pleasant, post-Brexit lands. However, am also happy to extend the hand of peace and reconciliation should they decide to stay and genuinely contribute and put behind them their Fifth Columnist allegiances.

      Unfortunately, the odds of that democratic epiphany taking place seem to be a very long shot given their three hundred year old track record of jiggery-pokery repeated and rinsed.

      Suspect, on the contrary, that most of their high heid yins plus the hard core rank and file uber BritNats will simply leg it all the while greeting at their lot to the bored world about them – a bit like the bitter Boers I have known, come to think of it.

      Fcuk them.

      PS Will their beloved England welcome them? I suspect not. Twice fcuked over they will be and Hell mend them the lot of them.

      PPS Even Tricky Dickie may be viewed as tainted Jock goods under the re-introduced Alien Act which I am guessing will follow the dissolution of the UK as night follows day given the extent of the rampant chauvinism which seems to grip our neighbours’ body politic yet again – it is nothing historically new. But then, ye reap as ye sow, too.

    19. TheBuchanLoony says:

      I wonder what the result would have been if the McCrone report had been known to the people of Scotland? The report states that an independent Scotland would be the richest country in Europe. 1979 was the peak output of the Forties field which subsequently financed Thatcher’s years of pit closures, Ravenscraig and many others.

    20. Marie Clark says:

      Well , well, well. So it was Robin Cook behind it, and was a coward to boot, hiding behind ither folk. I remember the devolution vote well. I voted for it, but, in truth it was a rigged game, and I think most folk recognised it.

      What a bunch of self serving parasites and chancers. Mind you, it’s still the same old same old isn’t it. Still self and party before your country. The make me sick to the very pit of my stomach. The sooner we rid ourselves of these vile creeps, the better.

    21. Those of us who went through the experience of the 1978 devolution referendum will never forget how Labour
      cheated and betrayed the Scottish people out of a devolved Scottish assembly.

      The fact is the SNP group made it clear to Callaghan that they would support his minority Labour Government on the condition that he delivered his party’s manifesto promise of a tax raising devolved Scottish assembly.

      But thanks to the antics of the likes of Tam Dayell,
      Robin Cook, George Cunningham, Neil Kinnock, Labour gerrymandered the referendum to ensure that the 40%
      target wasn’t met.

      Of course aren’t going to tell people that, it would like people to believe its the SNP’s fault that Thatcher was elected to No10 and it had nothing whatsoever to do with the winter of discontent
      and the unpopularity of the Callaghan Labour Government.

      My paternal Grandfather ex miner ex service man who had always voted Labour, voted Tory in 1979 because Barbara Castle had taken away the pensioners Christmas bonus.

    22. Marc Rich says:

      Red or Blue

      The story’s ay true

      Scotland is for us, yer masters.

      And nay fir you!

    23. Macart says:

      Which was only the beginning of the story I’d say. Labour of course and most especially Labour in Scotland went on a massive propaganda offensive to cover their appalling actions of those years. Hand in glove with the media, they created the myth of the ‘Tartan Tory’. A full on attempt to project the blame for Thatcher’s regime onto the Scottish National Party. They needed a scapegoat and they created one.

      They indoctrinated Scotland’s population for the past forty years with day in, day out propaganda. They’ve rewritten popular history, lied, misinformed, misdirected, slandered, alienated and generally pulled every nasty trick they could think of to further that end and pursue whatever party central’s agenda du jour happened to be besides. But mainly everything had to have an SNP bad slant t’boot because… reasons.

      You want to know why elements of Labour have a visceral hatred of the SNP? Why all of the above actions? It has bugger all to do with having their clothes stolen. It has zero to do with international socialism. It has everything to do with covering up their shame and complicity in one of the worst periods of Scotland’s social and political history.

      It’s also because they await the dropping of the other shoe. They’re terrified of Karma doing what Karma does best. I guess they believe that folk will do unto them what they’ve done unto…etc.

      The worst thing you could do to Labour in Scotland has already been done. You make them irrelevant to your needs and keep it that way. You create the party of government you need to reflect your wishes and needs and you give them your support.

      And if they betray your trust? Then you create another, and another, and another till the political class get the message. Duty of care, service and reflective government aren’t serving suggestions. Power rests with the people, or the people sack your sorry ass and move on to the next candidate.

      I’d also add that what we see today in the government of the UK and in society in general, is kinda what happens when your fibs are uncovered and your manipulations of the general public become public knowledge.

      People tend to get upset about that sort of thing.

    24. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Aye, never forget, despite what they (BBC/MSM etc.) tell you

      THERE IS NO Scottish Labour Party.

      There is only The BritNat Labour Party in Scotland.

      They have haemorrhaged members and as a result cash and are dependent on BritNat Labour funding (subsidy junkies so to speak).

      They will always dance to London Labours tune as will their Trades Union placemen.

    25. @Macart
      23 January, 2018 at 11:12 am
      well said Macart

    26. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      What these days is typically forgotten is that the Labour Government of the day was first of all propped up by the Liberals (as they then were) under David Steel in the infamous “Lib-Lab Pact”. It was only after the Libs became sickened of being patronised and taken advantage of by Labour without having anything whatever to show for it in return, and ducked out, that Labour were forced to depend on the SNP instead.

      Maybe it was an institutional memory of that which caused the LibDems to prefer the Tories over Labour back in 2010. Not that they fared much better.

      The two big UK parties don’t do co-operation, and FPTP gives them the big stick to not do it with. Until it all eventually becomes unglued, that is.

      So Labour in their over-inflated arrogance back in the late 1970’s (no change there, then) blew their chances not once, but twice!

      To slightly misquote (the fictional) Lady Bracknell, “To lose once may be regarded as a misfortune, to lose twice looks like carelessness”.

    27. Morag says:

      Well, well. Whoda thunkit. And all his fine words about wanting to switch to Holyrood after 1997, and note that he didn’t actually do that.

    28. Morag says:

      Was Robin Cook a victim of Blair’s cunning “World Leader!” plan & met Special Branch op’s on the hill?

      Give us a break. The man had a heart attack on top of a mountain. These things happen sometimes.

    29. Breeks says:

      Thatcher? Blair? Tory? Labour? What’s the difference?

      None of them have “governed” Scotland. They have treated us like livestock, browbeaten by BBC propaganda to keep us docile, and shown as much respect for Scotland’s interests as a Carillion Boss respects his workers, and done it all with as much competence, rigour, and attention to detail as a Brexit negotiator.

      They’ve stolen our oil, our industry, generations of our prosperity, and nobbled our industries and institutions with their right wing place-men and like minded puppets, “Independent” think tanks, and insidious dark money behind the scenes manipulation.

      Brian Doonthetoon linked me to the article about the Scotland UN Committee, and please keep me right here Brian, it was a Scottish Interest Group back in the 1990’s which used its influence and the background events of the collapse of Communism and concerns for democracy to lobby the Council of Europe about the democratic deficit of Scotland being ruled by a Tory Secretary of State with no mandate to govern Scotland. To cut a long and important story short, the results was the Scottish Devolution referendum of 1997.

      Labour likes to lay claim to being the fathers of Scottish Devolution, but that is more than a little disingenuous given the real drive for greater democracy was actually coming from the Council of Europe.

      The Scottish UN Committee wrote to every Foreign Ministry in the Council of Europe to fully brief them of Scotland’s democratic deficit of the time. The eventual result was Holyrood.

      Fast forward to 2018, we have Westminster’s Xenophobic Brexit bulldozing it’s way over a Sovereign Scottish Remain majority, threatening Scotland with economic catastrophe, and break their own rules and platitudes to affect a power grab of EU powers which their own conventions would have seen returned to Scotland. Furthermore, the all but redundant Scottish Office rendered an irrelevance before the Devolved Parliament is quietly being beefed up and re-manned to resume the control it enjoyed pre Devolution.

      It strikes me we Scottish patriots should be aiming for lightning to strike twice. We need our modern equivalent of the Scottish UN Committee to be writing to every Foreign Ministry of every EU Nation State, to articulate both the democratic deficit suffered in Scotland, the wall to wall propaganda we suffer instead of news, and the contemptuous disregard for, and redefinition of Scotland’s popular sovereignty.

      This time it isn’t Devolution we have as our prize, but international recognition of Scotland’s inalienable sovereignty.

    30. Calum McKay says:

      “The SNP voted Thatcher in”

      This was the manifesto and campaign message delivered by the labour party in Scotland, bbc and press through out the eighties, nineties and beyond.

      Yes the bbc were at it then, its bias is not new.

      This message was coupled with Scottish independence is not applicable to a uk general election. If it were discussed it was agreed by all we were too poor, wee and stupid, let’s get on with more important stuff such as funding for royal art to decorate the Jubilee Line, what do we think of the queens head on the new 5p coin or what additional honours should we bestow on the duke of Edinburgh?

      Furthermore, the three party state was perpetuated by funnily enough, the three parties, bbc and press.

      SNP never had a look in, never stood a chance, subsequently the message never got out.

      This changed in 2015 when Nicola had parity and made a presence. The SNP had put Scotland on the uk political map. Since then there has been a huge effort to put Scotland back in its box.

      I see the current state of affairs returning to the bad old days, the SNP will be shut out by tories, labour, liberals, bbc and press.

      All the more reason SNP should take the bbc and press to task……….NOW!

      As for Cook, he may have had a brilliant mind, but others describe him as a sleaze bag and drunk. I always had Claire Short as being the “only” principled person in that government.

    31. galamcennalath says:

      Moral. Labour can’t be trusted, especially where Scotland is concerned. I’m a wee bit disappointed in Cook. Still, he was Labour, and underhand behaviour should expected.

      There’s another lesson we need to think of. The referendum on 1st March was effectively in winter, miserable weather. The turn out was just under 64%. The May election which followed had 76% turn out.

      We will know what final Brexit will look like around October this year. There is much talk of IndyRef2 before Brexitday. That might mean a winter referendum. Truth probably is, the result will be weather dependent.

    32. galamcennalath says:

      As a total aside (but perhaps a measure of his cognitive skills) Robin Cook was an awful driver. Or perhaps his mind was on things other than the immediate task of safe driving!

      On the roundabouts of Livingston, he really didn’t quite seem to understand who gave way to whom!

    33. Highland Wifie says:

      Yes I remember voting for devolution in 1979 and the feeling of injustice over the 40% rule but as a young voter more concerned with my new job and the old love life I was not politically engaged and just blamed ‘the English’ . I see now my perceptions were very simplistic and that is often the curse of youth.
      I think many of today’s young voters are more sophisticated and have access to far more information than we had back then. At least I hope so!

    34. mogabee says:

      Godamnit! I do hope that Robin Cook’s life flashed before his eyes and he felt remorse because…Damn.

      Looking back at the poverty and depravation in much of Scotland which we all just accepted as ‘the way things were’ while the Labour party swaggered about scooping up plaudits for what? Not fighting for the people of Scotland that’s for sure.

      I cannot wait for some jumped up little snotty nosed arsehole from Labour to utter this accusation again.

      Boy, are they gonna regret it!

    35. David McCann says:

      . In his memoirs, “Time and Chance”, the then Prime Minister Jim Callaghan noted:
      “ In his (i.e. Michael Cox, Labour’s Chief Whip) view, the difficulty within the (Labour) Party, was much greater than any from the Scottish National Party, and the Whip’s judgement was that the government could not rely on the votes of Labour members from the north if we moved to reject the Repeal Order……… we could lose the vote.”
      In short, Labour back benchers, including Neil Kinnock, Brian Wilson et al, would have preferred, not just to see, but to participate in, the demise of their own government, rather than honour Labour’s manifesto commitment to the Scottish people, by establishing the Assembly which Scots had already voted ‘yes’ for in the Referendum.
      The extent to which some Labour anti Devolutionists were prepared to go can be summed up in the words of Patrick Cosgrave in his book ‘The Lives of Enoch Powell’ when he wrote “Confidential exchanges took place between Thatcher’s aides and a number of Labour back benchers hostile to Devolution”
      The survival of the Labour government was therefore in the hands of its own MPs.

    36. Iain says:

      Robin Cook was clever man, but extremely conceited, self-centred, and nasty.

      This was exemplified by his treatment of his first wife. He had a series of sexual relationships with other women, eventually ending his marriage with utter callousness: at Heathrow Airport, about to go on holiday with his wife, he received a telephone call telling him his latest affair was about to be exposed by the press. He ended the call, told his wife their marriage was over, and left the airport.

    37. Dr Jim says:

      SKY news:

      We have been promoted though from a nonentity to a “regional disparity” because practically everything in Scotland such as hosptal care knife crime and child health is almost twice as good as England praise is being heaped upon us without actually mentioning our name (Scotland) or our government responsible (SNP)

      Regional disparity eh, such warm and glowing terms

    38. galamcennalath says:

      Referring to this article TheRev tweeted “Betraying Scotland is in Scottish Labour’s DNA.”

      Very true. The other day I seem to remember him tweeting that young people may not know about Labour’s history and back them, or words to that effect.

      Labour are probably the biggest threat to Indy. Always were always will be until Indyday.

      I have the concern that some youngsters, just enough, will be seduced into believing NewNew Labour have something to offer. The twist will be that most of these same folks will be Yes supporters. There is a disconnect in Scotland between Indy and party preferences.

      The reality that there is an inextricable link between achieving Indy and a pro Indy majority in Holyrood, seems to have passed some voters by.

      If we have IndyRef2 before Holyrood2021 then fine. Planning to wait until after could be suicidal. And Labour could be the means of achieving death.

    39. Socrates MacSporran says:

      This continuing rehashing of what happened around that Vote Of Confidence all those years ago is perhaps the best example you will ever see of “The Liberty Valance Defence”.

      When the truth belies the legend – print the legend. This i sa protocol the Great British media will always follow.

    40. Robert Peffers says:

      @Lanarkist says: 23 January, 2018 at 10:29 am:

      “The West Lothian question was also a red herring, they could have adjusted Westminster by having English votes on English legislation that matched devolved areas of authority or set up an English Assembly to deal with these issues seperately for England.”

      I cannot believe so many independence supporters are so badly informed on the so called, “West Lothian Question”. Yet here you are with the same blind spot.

      There really dishonest and wrong thing about the whole United Kingdom, “pretendy”, (sic), democracy has been with us since the Treaty of Union.

      The Treaty of Union is an agreement between only two, equally sovereign, kingdoms.

      As such the union is a bipartite, (two partner), union of kingdoms. It is not a union of countries. Ergo what was formed was not a continuation of the Parliament of the country of England and the country of Scotland and that means it also brought into the union of both of the countries of Wales and (at the time of the union), all Ireland. This because the Principality of Wales was annexed by the Kingdom of England in 1284:-

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Rhuddlan

      and the Kingdom of Ireland was annexed by the Kingdom of England by the Irish Parliament, (already under the Lordship of the King of England), Crown of Ireland Act, in 1542.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_of_Ireland_Act_1542

      There is absolutely no doubt that, “The Union”, was a two partner agreement to make two equally sovereign Kingdoms into a unified kingdom.

      However there has never been a actual proper United Kingdom since day one. 1st May 1707. The two individual, Acts of Union, were the penultimate act of the Parliament of the Kingdom of England and the ultimate act of the Parliament of the Kingdom of Scotland. This difference came about because the Parliament of the Kingdom of England, after passing their Act of Union, sat and formally wound up the Parliament of the Kingdom of England. In Scotland the parliament was never formally ended and was thus only ever, “prorogued”:-

      prorogue – verb;
      past tense: prorogued; past participle: prorogued;

      discontinue a session of (a parliament or other legislative assembly) without dissolving it.

      Thus the individual actual Acts of Union were only applicable in the two individual kingdoms and had no legal meaning in the new – Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain but also, as all Ireland was a province of the, now dissolved, Parliament of the Kingdom of England. They just forgot to mention it when they decided to name the new union, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain”.

      From the 1st May 1707 the old Westminster palace, (since burned to the ground), became the totally new Parliament of, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain”. Yet it has never acted as a true democratic union of two equal partner kingdoms.

      It was assumed by the old Westminster members, from the get go, to be a continuation of the Parliament of the Kingdom of England that had annexed the Kingdom of Scotland.

      The only legal thing that parliament had with the former Parliament of the Kingdom of England was it sat in the old Westminster Palace.

      So, if the Westminster Parliament had actually operated as it had been legally created as, there would be no, so called, West Lothian Question, for there has never been an elected as such Parliament of either the Kingdom or the Country of England. Thus each and every member in that house is legally a member of the Parliament of the United Kingdom and all legally equal.

      There has been no parliament of either the kingdom or country of England since 1st May 1707 and no member of such a parliament has ever been elected or existed.

      So Westminster has always run illegally as first the de facto Parliament of the Kingdom of England. That is until Westminster decided to take things to a new, also illegal, level and introduced devolution along the lines of only three countries instead of four. Westminster made itself the de facto parliament of the country of England while retaining for itself to remain also the Parliament of the United Kingdom.

      In this they made Westminster the parliament of the country of England and thus they were devolving the sovereign powers of the country of England that is totally illegal under Scottish law as stated in the Treaty of Union, (Article of Union 19).

    41. Fireproofjim says:

      Galamcennalath @ 11.33
      Couldn’t agree more regarding the timing of the next Inderef.
      The earliest feasible time in the near future is the late summer of 2019 for the simple reason that it is now too late for a 2018 campaign, and we need long summer nights for campaigning together with good weather for rallies at weekends.
      A polling day of cold, wet, winter weather could be a disaster for Yes, so mid August to mid September of 2019 it has to be. We can, off course, start to get the Yes team and plans in place by the end of 2018.
      Also by that time we will know just how bad Brexit will be.

    42. Morag says:

      The “Scottish UN Committee” are a bunch of elderly fantasists who wrote a lot of letters and went on a summer holiday and got nothing more in reply than a sheaf of polite acknowledgements. As anyone actually looking at what they have lodged with the National Library will discover.

    43. colin alexander says:

      Robin Cook was one of the leaders of the NO campaign, so his opposition to the Assembly was no secret.

      It’s far fetched to suggest a Scottish Assembly would have prevented the ravages of Thatcherism.

      The reality is the Assembly would have administered those ravages. Just like Holyrood administers WM Austerity nowadays.

      If we didn’t have Holyrood we would probably be independent by now.

      Just a majority of pro-indy SNP MPs elected and we would have been independent.

      But, because of Holyrood we had 56 out of 59 SNP MPs, who achieved NOTHING.

      Over 10 years of electing the SNP to no significant lasting effect.

    44. Fireproofjim says:

      Galamcennalath @ 11.56
      More common sense.
      The window for Inderef2 is quite clear. – Summer 2019 to summer 2020.
      Beyond 2020 the SNP may not even have a majority at Holyrood and then there will never be another referendum. There may not even be a Scottish Government if the Tories get their way.

    45. colin alexander says:

      The electorate voted in the Tory Govt led by Thatcher, it wasn’t the SNP MPs.

      In Scotland, the Tories got over a third of the vote and Scotland elected 22 Tory MPs.

      However, the Labour Govt was about to collapse anyway, so the sensible decision was that the SNP should just have let the UK MPs get on with it and abstained.

      Like now, the SNP should keep out of Brexit. Their only role should be to represent the view of Scotland: who voted Remain.

      But, no, the SNP never learn. They want to feel important. Want to be respected at WM by Unionist MPs that despise Scottish independence.

    46. HandandShrimp says:

      Fireproof

      I have considered Sept 2019 or May 2020, as the two likeliest dates for some time. Brexit and whether there is a power grab will both be clear by then. An informed decision can then be made.

      May 2019 is a third option if urgency dictates.

    47. heedtracker says:

      Amazeballs read! Who knew a gorgeous pouting Gordon Brown was an advocate of Scottish devo, a powerful one too.

      Its a lot easier to understand why England voted Thatcher than it is to get why Scotland was robbed in 79.

      The great 70’s Rupert Murdoch v Michael Foot wars were where it was at, with our noble and honest Beeb gimp network provided Murdoch with all the backup needed. And so, Murdoch’s now an ancient billionaire in NY NY. Its what Snatcher Thatcher would have wanted.

    48. So labour was telling lies away back then who would have thought I have never voted for them in my life as a shipyard shop steward I voted communist and then SNP in my own small way I tried to improve things for my fellow workers but alas it was not enough because the gap between rich and poor has grown and like my school reports which said could have done better I feel guilty about that and maybe the reason I feel guilty is because I am

    49. Ken500 says:

      Robin Cook’s duplicity. Then the illegal criminal wars. What a imbecile. A Devolved SNP Parliament could have helped prevent it. Scotland could have have helped stopped it. Westminster would not have had the resources or the manpower, to ruin the world economy. Brexit will ruin it again. Stop the Westminster imbeciles. Death and destruction. Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence and EU membership. Stick up for people’s rights. Stand up for Scotland and the world economy. Stop the Tory unionist psychopaths.

      Corbyn/Labour could have stopped May on 12th Sept 2017. They could have brought her down. Evel. Instead of waiting for more failure.

    50. mike cassidy says:

      And Labour will betray Scotland again.

      The unionist parties have one clear ambition.

      A combined majority at the next Holyrood election –

      with the First Minister job going to the unionist party with the most mps.

      Just think!

      If that happened today

      Davidson, Leonard, Rennie.

      They would be the big three of Scottish politics.

    51. Northern Islander says:

      I’ve never understood the ‘West Lothian Question’. If England chooses to have its affairs settled by the UK parliament rather than bringing power closer to the people then it has to accept that will include MP’s from outwith England. Scotland has chosen not to (up to a point). If there’s a question at all it’s got b***** all to do with West Lothian and there is one very obvious solution…

    52. HandandShrimp says:

      Davidson, Leonard, Rennie.

      They would be the big three of Scottish politics

      🙂 Not if they stood on each other’s shoulders.

      Actually, I think Leonard would be forbidden by Corbyn to assist in such an alliance it would destroy Momentum’s credibility. Labour would abstain and Holyrood would be a shifting tide of allegiances

    53. Zen Broon says:

      Last year went to a play ‘This House’ by an English playwright that in (amusing) detail describes the shaky existence then fall of the Callaghan government in 1979. Strangely enough the SNP were barely mentioned. The message hammered home from an English perspective was that it was the disloyalty of English Labour MPs that brought in Thatcher.

    54. Effijy says:

      Seriously, I truly believe the Tories approached promising University Students who were willing to be Moles in the Labour Party.

      Flipper £Millionaire Alistair Darling a Trotskyite in his formative years- Never! Sold his Tax payer Funded 2nd homes to make his first £Million and now after selling out Scotland on the Indy Ref, is a Lord with a very lucrative job with the Bankers that the Tax payer bailed out.

      Tony Blair- Labour £millionaire
      Gordon Brown- Labour £Millionaire
      Sir Keir Starmer £Millionaire
      Neil Kinnock £Millionaire
      Alastair Campbell £Millionaire
      Baron- Peter Mendelson- £Millionaire
      etc

      I was under the impression that was supposed to serve the people and improve the living standards of the masses, but we have seen the gap between rich and poor in the UK widen for 55 consecutive years.

      These so called Labour Socialists seem to have done very well for themselves while their ignorant voters go from bad to worse.

      They are so Left wing that most of their MP’s wanted to oust a so called Lefties Leader-Corbyn. They work in partnership with the Tories at the Drop of a Hat-Indy Ref and Brexit.

      How about their so called Scottish Leader asking party to supporters to vote Tory to keep out the left of center SNP Party
      How about them willing to make Wee Ruth First Minister, if it keeps SNP out!

      Labour are now a right wing party who will impose any form of hardship on anyone as long as they have their own snout in the Westminster trough.

      Anyone who wants to spend £Billions on Nuclear Missiles while
      4 Million UK Children are living in poverty cannot claim to be working toward the greater good of society.

    55. Thepnr says:

      That 40% rule in 1979 was plainly ridiculous yet Labour backed it. The party of the people and of democracy? Aye right!

      If Cameron had applied that same 40% rule on a Leave vote for the EU referendum then the UK would still be in the EU. Why didn’t he?

      A similar rule for a second Independence will not work though, turnout in 2014 was 84.6% and I believe it will be over 90% next time.

      Quebec referendum turnout in 1980 was 85.6% and in 1995 it was 93.2%.

      The same will happen here and even if it doesn’t a win with anything over an 80% turnout ensures a vote for Yes by at least 40% of the electorate.

      In saying that, I don’t think they’d dare try the same ruse again.

    56. Bob Mack says:

      Labour were traditionally seen as the working class vote in Scotland. They also relied heavily on the Irish catholic vote in central Scotland.

      Labour no longer represent the working class. That illusion is only kept in place because the trade unions are affiliated to Labour. Labour want power and powerful people to back them. I think Liz Kendal said that Labour do not support the unemployed.
      Nothing eases a rich persons conscience better than to say they support a Socialist Party, whilst leading a Tory lifestyle.

      Interesting to see one of the Celtic Directors attending Mrs May’s Burns night so. Almost very home game there is a food bank collection from the fans. This in microcosm is the relationship. The top people indulge themselves whilst the ordinary folk try to feed the underprivileged from their own resources.

    57. louis.b.argyll says:

      And so, as with this, do the (100% ESTABLISHMENT-CONNECTED) UK MEDIA
      and their Scottish counterparts
      really think all will be forgotten?
      We’ll all go back to ‘normal’ c.1707-1960?

      Before the human race had legislated for equality, human rights, open government, press neutrality etc, it was the BRITISH STATE THAT OWNED THE PLANET AND DESIGNED ABUSIVE SYSTEMS IN ITS OWN IMAGE.

    58. In the here and now, Richard Leonard leads the North British Branch of the English Labour Party.
      He is the latest in a long line of Red Tory leaders who would probably be as ham fisted at stringing sausages together as he is linking words into sentences.
      Davidson, Rennie, Leonard, and from the WM contingent, Murray, Mundell, and Carmichael.
      This is the Yoon Talent Pool. They are boneheaded not very bright Yoon Trumpeteers.
      They have one thing in common.
      Like Scots born English MP George Cunningham, their tenuous ‘Scottishness’ lends a tartan veneer to their clearly anti Scottish hostility to any further devolution, never mind Home Rule, FFA, or Federalism.(Yawn).
      Jesus, I spent the thick end of 4 decades out there in the Big Bad World, earning a coin, working with teams of colleagues who in the main were like minded very capable qualified people with skill sets and disciplines essential to do the work, who actually made a difference, and contributed positively to society.
      I give not a toss how ‘discourteous’ (May’s word) it may seem, but those mentioned above, and the vast majority of Unionist MSPs, and the 26 WM Scots MPs, and the HUNDREDS of Scots Lairds and Lairdesses are quite frankly not up to the job, and by their deeds many come across as not very bright, who do not consider that they have a duty to protect the rights of their fellow Scots citizens, defend Scotland from English imposed laws, and halting the theft of Scotland’s resources by an English Parliament and Establishment.
      It is Scotland’s oil, it is Scotland’s whisky, it is Scotland’s timber, it is Scotland’s fish, it is Scotland’s moorlands, it is Scotland’s hydro, it is Scotland’s right to choose Self Determination.
      I agree with others on here. We go in Spring 2019, when England and Wales leave Europe.
      If Rennie or Mundell or Davidson threaten Scots with economic ruin, then they get what they deserve. political oblivion.
      Cook and Dalyell were ‘bools in the mooth’ Uncle Toms. They were more ‘English’ than ‘Scots’, like Rifkind, Forsyth, and Alec Douglas Hume.
      They were as Scotch as Scotch Tape.

    59. HandandShrimp says:

      Thepnr

      To be fair Callaghan pleaded with the 34 rebels not to vote for the 40% amendment. It was the Tories that backed it. It was the Tories that lied that they would bring a better, stronger devolution bill to the table.

      Never trust the Tories. (Don’t trust Labour much either but I think the Tories edge them on untrustworthiness).

    60. Derick fae Yell says:

      Terms of Brexit become clear (maybe!) October 2018
      Renew calls for a S30. Action when refused?

      Indyref Bill introduced, November 2018-January 2019.

      10 months to go through Parliament August-October 2019

      Royal Assent September-November 2019

      Earliest possible date for a referendum Summer 2020
      More likely September 2020.

      Not outwith the bounds of possibility we will have to seek an unconditional mandate in 2021. As Tommy Shepherd observed, if we can’t win a mandate in a proportional Parliament (particularly with firm promise to hold a referendum in the manifesto), we won’t win a referendum. I think we would, if we have to

      And still the backstop of reverting to a majority of Scottish MPs if we have to.

      A friend of mine posted on FB that her two sons, turned 16, will be eligible to vote and are nailed on Yessers. Our household will add one more next year. tick, tock

    61. Nana says:

      O/T

      From 14.20 today debate on the withdrawal bill

      MSPs to debate EU Withdrawal Bill consent row
      http://archive.is/Oj10T

      http://www.parliament.scot/visitandlearn/67792.aspx

    62. starlaw says:

      Labour and their mischief in Scotland are not finished yet … not by a long shot. They are about to use the Teachers to stir up trouble for the ruling Scottish Government. Take note … no such threats being used against Westminster or Cardiff. … Labour we are watching.

    63. Mary McCabe says:

      It was Russell Galbraith’s biography of Tam Dalyell which outed Robin Cook as the initiator of the 40% rule who for career reasons had persuaded Cunningham to take the rap.

      Neither John Smith nor Donald Dewar ever mentioned devolution in their lives except when the SNP were breathing down the neck of Labour.

      John Smith was landed with the devolution project and went about it with all the passion of a junior civil servant. Yet when he died he became the Saint of the Project (buried at Iona amongst the kings), while the media gushed “Do it for John!”

      Cook (despite being an ardent anti-devolutionist) was initially begged by the media to become the first leader of the new Scottish Parliament. When he made clear his wish to stay with Westminster, the mob flocked round Dewar.

      Dewar was asked in the mid-1990s if he planned to transfer from the UK Parliament to the Scottish Parliament. He rejected the idea outright. Yet as soon as the media started naming him as the leader-in-waiting he felt the hand of history on his shoulder.

      Now he’s the father of the nation with his statue (raised on to a higher plinth to deter the iconoclasts) in Glasgow’s Buchanan Street.

      For a careerist politician reinvented by the media the sky is the limit.

    64. colin alexander says:

      The only party that represented the working class at Holyrood was
      Tommy Sheridan’s SSP.

      “Whereas the SNP are a broad church, social democrats” blah blah.

      Heard it all before.

    65. Luigi says:

      The SNP have but a small window of opportunity to roll their sleeves up and get stuck into their Labour enemies IMO.

      Old Labour fooled a generation. However, there is another generation emerging that they will try to fool, and they must be stopped. Deception reborn – Labour Mark 10 already has been launched (Corbyn et al. are already bedded in with the establishment). It won’t take the yoon media that long to come up with a way of using reincarnated Labour to damage the SNP in Scotland whilst at the same time ensuring they never get to power (or are completely impotent by the time they do so).

      The SG has to set the agenda, by fair means or foul. They have to keep at least two steps ahead. Stop being nice and trying to be competent and fair, and get stuck intae them. 🙂

    66. Proud Cybernat says:

      “I have considered Sept 2019 or May 2020…”

      I like the idea of Thurs 29th November 2018. The YES result coming in on Saint Andrew’s Day.

    67. Breeks says:

      Morag says:
      23 January, 2018 at 11:58 am

      The “Scottish UN Committee” are a bunch of elderly fantasists who wrote a lot of letters and went on a summer holiday and got nothing more in reply than a sheaf of polite acknowledgements. As anyone actually looking at what they have lodged with the National Library will discover.

      I thought that might be the case Morag, but that doesn’t necessarily undermine the idea of a lobby group trying to flex some sovereign muscle and raise awareness that Westminster’s view of the UK constitution is a disputed one.

      Whether it merely raises awareness or defines legal precedence regarding Scottish sovereignty, I struggle to reconcile how we can resolve ourselves to lay claim to sovereignty further on down the line, but do nothing to defend the essential principle in the short term.

      On the question of Scottish sovereignty, a polite acknowledgment might be all it takes…

    68. call me dave says:

      Jings! A school day for me that Cook was so much involved.

      Great article as usual exposing the history of our ‘friends’ in the North. All socialist millionaires… funny old world init.

      PS: Tennis. 🙂

      Big Auntie darn Sarf says Murray texted WOW but shortbread this morning said Murray texted YES! It’s the way they tell um.

    69. Dr Jim says:

      Top reporting by BBC Scotland on the Edinburgh trams fiasco making it all look like SNP Baad and John Swinneys fault even though the SNP were against the project but outvoted by the Unionists and then John Swinney refused to inject more money into the disaster that wasn’t of the SNPs making, somehow the BBC make it look like the best SNP Baad of the day by saying “he wouldn’t do anything differently” accompanied by the dissaproving face of the newsreader

      It’s the way they tell them

    70. colin alexander says:

      Luigi

      The SNP had an open goal following the near wipeout of Labour in 2015 and a Tory Party with one MP in Scotland.

      A Smith Commission and Unionist Parties that betrayed all the BT promises.

      And did NOTHING.

      Instead they have waited till Labour and the Tories have had a mini-revival and the SNP’s vote is dropping.

      Aye, they would still be starting from a better position in 2014 (hopefully), according to opinion polls, but are still the underdogs; but with SIU etc and the BBC continually campaigning against independence, while the SNP hum and haw about even talking about whether to have an indyref or not, the polls are stagnant or slipping down for indy.

    71. Dr Jim says:

      Childrens healthcare in Scotland is the best in the UK but it’s lagging behind Europe now admits the BBC snarkily

      Cannae wait till the Martians get here so’s the BBC can keep telling us we’re behind somebody no matter how good we get

    72. Macart says:

      Next PPB?

      What the SNP didn’t do TO us.

    73. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Aye 100% on the money @starlaw says at 1:22 pm

      “Labour and their mischief in Scotland are not finished yet ….They are about to use the Teachers to stir up trouble for the ruling Scottish Government. Take note … no such threats being used against Westminster or Cardiff. … Labour we are watching.”

      All part of the continuation of the ‘Tartan Tories’ pish.

      BBC/MSM will push the “Radical,Corbyn friendly GMB Unions
      Dickie Leontard led ‘Scottish’ Labour Party” standing up for the Public Sector against ‘The SNP passing on Tory Austerity’ with the usual BritNat Trades Union mouthpieces given airtime and column inches.

      While they pray for a bout of collective amnesia on the part of the electorate old enough to have been ruled by BritNat Labour in Scotland and a naive younger electorate who will believe their standard “jam tomorrow” bollocks.

    74. Meg merrilees says:

      Proud Cybernat

      November 29th 2018, OK by me.

      PS

      Why are we only seeing Theresa May , swathed in tartan at her Burn’s Supper at No.10, pictured in the scottish papers… not important enough to feature in any part of English life eh?

      Couldn’t be a slimy political move on her part could it – or am I a cynic?

      I guess we’ll be paying for it through the Scotland office.

      Enough to put one off Haggis!

    75. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Derick fae Yell @ 13:20:

      Not outwith the bounds of possibility we will have to seek an unconditional mandate in 2021.

      Oh, here we go again. All too difficult, delay after delay will be inevitable, and by the time we get to 2021 the chance will have evaporated, the horse will have truly bolted, and most normal people will have shrugged their shoulders and moved on (so =whisper= the yoons will edge a majority in Holyrood and the whole Brexit/indy thing will be dead in the water =phew=).

      With “friends” like this, who needs enemies…?

    76. Dr Jim says:

      Some parts of Scotland are experiencing more rain than others
      Scotland is lagging behind countries like Greece and Spain on delivering sunshine for all

      No one from the Scottish government was available for comment

    77. Robert Graham says:

      Only ever works on people with memory loss

      Looks like Scotland has more than its fair share of people with this condition , it’s probably why labour managed to fool them so long , has their condition improved ? , Has it f/k .

    78. Proud Cybernat says:

      Theresa May to host Dowing Street Burns Night to celebrate ‘enduring Union’. And whit does The Bard think?

      https://imgur.com/a/P0Hkl

    79. call me dave says:

      News about trams ‘smarts’ right enough which ever way you spell it out.

      Swinney front and centre there and if you weren’t listening closely to the 15 second bit at the start it’s all the bad SNP whot done it. Good old Auntie with a kilt tv. 🙁

      Maybe he should preface all his answers with a reference to the

      “Labour and Lib-Dems voting it through in the 2007 by one vote so we were stuck with it kinda thing”…..

    80. Scott says:

      New SPA chief backs justice secretary in chief constable row

      Susan Deacon has just telt Davidson she is a wally

    81. Scott says:

      Meant to add no comments on this story wonder why.

    82. Robert Graham says:

      Stop Press – Hold the front page .

      England have a tennis player who hasn’t been knocked out before they left the dressing room ,

      Coupled with memories of 1966 being all over the news , prepair for a outbreak of Union jacks ,

      Mayhem being mentioned in the same breath as our Bard Robert Burns , is enough to make anyone sick ,

      Mrs Mayhem he didn’t like your type or your Scottish arse lickers , remember that Mrs .

    83. HandandShrimp says:

      Love to hear Theresa recite Ode to a Mouse 🙂

    84. One_Scot says:

      We have already been told that the referendum will be in this parliament. Try to keep up.

    85. yesindyref2 says:

      In 1978-9 I had to try unsuccessfully to convince Labour people including an influential shop steward at “Bathgate no more”, to vote YES to Devolution, their take was “it’s a bad bill, we’ll get a better one”. I’d previously had to argue with SNP people that no, it wasn’t Independence but it was a step on the way, step by step we’d get there in the end. But the SNP did come around and even took over distributing Labour leaflets left lying around (Falkirk Labour office for instance).

      18 wasted years, including the ravages of Thatcher.

      Few will deny we’ve been better off with Devolution since 1999, so setting the alternative timetable had it been a YES in 1979 and the Parliament started in 1981 we have:

      1981: Scottish Parliament reconvened
      1989: SNP minority Government
      1993: SNP overall majority Government
      1996: Unsuccessful Indy Ref, YES 45%. Actually I think it would have been an overwhelming YES back then, like the Dev Ref of 1997. Never mind.
      2001: Second Indy Ref, it’s a YES vote
      2003: Scotland Independent
      2018: Scotland member of the EU, GDP twice what it is

    86. wee bud says:

      Sad that these plastic jocks would and still are shafting their own country…
      A great thread to read for us lurkers especially when the troll is ignored.. Sorry for bringing him up but you can sense his desperation..
      Keep it up folks ..

    87. Sinky says:

      Dr Jim.

      On Edinburgh Trams, the salient point is that one Labour, one Tory and two Lib Dem councillors were on the management board of TIE which made a mess of the project (No one from SNP). They took their extra money but didn’t ask searching questions or publicly raise any doubts whatsoever during the whole construction period.

      On Labour defeat in 1979, Derek Bateman makes a valid often forgotten point that the 13 Lib Dems also voted against the Labour government but are never castigated by Labour 40 years after the event.

      At least the SNP MPs voted on a matter of principle on behalf of Scotland’s voters, a majority of whom voted for devolution, albeit at a great medium term cost politically.

    88. yesindyref2 says:

      And here’s a date: 12 May 1999 – Scottish Parliament reconvened.

      2019 will be the 20th anniversary.

    89. liz says:

      Well, well. A bunch of conniving bastards. Who’d have though it.

      This is why the likes of Cat Boyd are dangerous, still playing the same games.

    90. Jack Murphy says:

      Scottish Parliament is debating this afternoon,the Withdrawal Bill from the European Union.
      “Debate: European Union (Withdrawal) Bill LCM – Interim Report”

      Direct link to Scotland’s Parliament Debating Chamber:

      https://www.scottishparliament.tv/

      Proceedings will be Archived and available to view later as per usual.

    91. Derick fae Yell says:

      Robert J. Sutherland

      I finished knock ups in the 1997 referendum at 9:40pm.
      Out three evenings a week in 2014 (with a full time job)
      What did you do?

      Stick your snide comments where the sun don’t shine.

      What part of The First Minister has said she will decide next steps when terms of Brexit are known are you not understanding?

      The Parliamentary timetable dictates what will then happen. It’s not rocket science.

    92. yesindyref2 says:

      And some alternative statistics had Scotland got devolution in 1979/81, and Indy in 2001/3.

      Population 6 million
      GDP £320 million, or S£ 280 million due to higher value of S£.
      Central bank holdings: S£40 billion and rising to keep the S£ from going too high
      Debt: S$ 40 billion (wisely invested) all denominated in S£
      Debt to GDP ratio: 16%
      Annual surplus: 0.8% (no sense in being higher)
      Minimum wage S£ 10 per hour
      Employment: 100% (See ScottieDog / Derek Henry
      Oil fund: S£ 250 billion

    93. yesindyref2 says:

      Anybody angry yet? Including undecided lurkers? Well you should be, you should be.

      Scotland sold out by Scottish Labour in 1978-1979.

    94. Capella says:

      They will use every dirty trick again. They already are with the constant whine of bad news and character assassination of anyone/anything to do with the SG or SNP.

      “Vote NO and we’ll give you Home Rule”
      “Vote YES and a plague of locusts will devastate your land.”

      Because we had moved house and my partner had begun a course at university, we had been registered to vote 5 times. Although we both voted YES there were 3 NO votes attributed to us. My grandfather, who had died that year, would have been registered as a NO vote.

      Some Tory students were subsequently prosecuted for registering people at university towns, thus inflating the NO vote. This should have rendered the result null and void. But who monitors these ant-democratic acts? Westminster. So it’s allowed to stand with a shrug and slope shouldered moving on to more important matters, such as looting our resources.

      It doesn’t surprise me that Robin Cook was complicit in denying democracy. Nothing about Westminster politicians will surprise me now.
      Good work Stu, as usual.

    95. KD says:

      350 billion pounds in oil later.

    96. Breeks says:

      Proud Cybernat says:
      23 January, 2018 at 1:31 pm

      “I have considered Sept 2019 or May 2020…”

      I like the idea of Thurs 29th November 2018. The YES result coming in on Saint Andrew’s Day….

      Makes my blood boil if it’s 2019 – because Scotland will be dragged out of Europe in March 2019 unless we get off our collective arse and stand firm in defence of Scotland Remain majority.

      It is rank hypocrisy to declare staying in Europe as your preferred option, but then do absolutely nothing to prevent it happening or even disrupt it’s timetable.

      One_Scot says:
      23 January, 2018 at 2:51 pm

      We have already been told that the referendum will be in this parliament. Try to keep up.

      Aye, it better be.

    97. colin alexander says:

      Breeks

      “It is rank hypocrisy to declare staying in Europe as your preferred option, but then do absolutely nothing to prevent it happening or even disrupt it’s timetable”.

      Oh, that’s a bit unfair. The SNP are doing all they can to achieve Brexit ( the Soft variety).

      That is worse than doing nothing. Worse than hypocrisy.

      It’s nuts.

    98. colin alexander says:

      It seems to me the SNP are working on the premise of Scotland being part of the UK long term.

      That’s indicated by the SNP campaigning for Soft Brexit, which would be the best option for Scotland, in one circumstance only:

      Scotland being part of the UK for the long-term. As studies show it’s the Scottish economy – AS PART OF THE UK – that will suffer most from Hard Brexit.

      In contrast, if the UK remains in the Single Market, there would then be a clear economic advantage for Scotland to Remain part of the UK, rather than leave the UK’s Single Market AND the EU’s Single Market (as part of the UK’s membership of the EU’s Single Market).

    99. HandandShrimp says:

      Makes my blood boil if it’s 2019 – because Scotland will be dragged out of Europe in March 2019

      If there is a deal it is likely that there will be a 2 year transition period (or longer) where we will still be in the EU structures. A 2019 vote should, if successful, give us time to start talking to the EU before we crash out of everything.

    100. PictAtRandom says:

      HandandShrimp says:
      23 January, 2018 at 2:50 pm

      Love to hear Theresa recite Ode to a Mouse ?

      Surely it should be “Comin’ Thro’ The Wheat”?

      About the IndyRef2 timing controversy : I believe that there would be only marginal gain in postponing it beyond Spring 2019 — if it is held in this parliament. If it isn’t then the potential jackpot comes from holding it as late as 2023-24. But that would be a huge decision with obvious pitfalls. There’s a choice — or there may be — between holding it in a time of confusion (when Unionists can always intervene to stymie Holyrood initiatives, even if only to do something kamikaze (cf. 2017 GE), and line up ‘nasty’ EU spokespeople and approved experts to sow doubt) and a later calmer period characterised by chronic pain. I think the latter would benefit “Yes” and could result in a clear victory.
      Honest analysis, hopefully not swayed too much by my EUscepticism. I can only make the weak recommendation to keep monitoring and gathering information for now.

    101. CameronB Brodie says:

      The early Fabians saw socialism as a means of spreading British nationalism, the Establishment’s blood-and-soil solution to rising demands for social equality, set against the backdrop of a waning empire.

      @Gerry Hassan
      Do you understand the difference between nationalism and patriotism, or political agency and political protest? Do you not appreciate agency is the core of any radical emancipation? It doesn’t look like it from where I am.

      Do you still self-identify as British?

      Kissing Cousins: Nationalism and Realism

      SHARED ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT POLITICS

      Nationalism and realism are particularistic theories at their most basic level. They both assume that the key actors in the world are autonomous units that interact with each other as a matter of course. Because those interactions can be either beneficial or harmful, the units pay careful attention to how the behavior of the other units affects their own interests. Each unit has the right as well as the responsibility to pursue its own interests, even if it is done at the expense of the other units’ interests. This privileging of one’s own welfare sometimes leads the units to attempt to harm or even destroy other units.

      This selfish behavior notwithstanding, the units are not hostile toward each other in all instances and they certainly are not in a constant state of war. In fact, they sometimes cooperate with each other. Nevertheless, every unit knows that there is always the possibility that another unit will threaten it. Because the possibility of conflict is always present, the units worry about their survival, even when there is no imminent threat. Survival is not the only goal for the units, of course, but it must be their highest goal for the obvious reason that if a unit does not survive, it cannot pursue those other goals. Both realists and most theorists of nationalism also believe that there is little that the units can do to change or transcend this world.

      http://mearsheimer.uchicago.edu/pdfs/kissingcousins.pdf

      Searching for realism, structure, and agency in Actor Network Theory
      https://dspace.lboro.ac.uk/dspace-jspui/bitstream/2134/13269/3/Realism___ANT_V3_BJS_PPV.pdf

      Critical Realism and the Strategic-Relational Approach. New Formations: A Journal of Culture, Theory and Politics
      http://eprints.lancs.ac.uk/209/

    102. wull2 says:

      Keep putting the drops in the eyes, it seems more people are more clearly.
      You might even try ear drops that sometimes helps people hear what’s going on rather than relying on memory.

      We rely on Wings to keep us informed of what might trying to do next.

    103. yesindyref2 says:

      So, how about the dreaded oil the Unoinists tell us is worthless, had we been independent since 2003? Geographical revenues UK style:

      2003-04: £ 4.3 billion
      2004-05: £ 5.2 billion
      2005-06: £ 8.0 billion
      2006-07: £ 7.5 billion
      2007-08: £ 7.3 billion
      2008-09: £11.7 billion
      2009-10: £ 5.9 billion
      2010-11: £ 7.9 billion
      2011-12: £10.6 billion
      2012-13: £ 5.6 billion
      2013-14: £ 4.0 billion
      2014-15: £ 1.8 billion
      2015-16: £ 0.1 billion
      2016-17: £ 0.2 billion

      Total +: £80.1 smackeroonie billion. All ours. Plus interest.

    104. galamcennalath says:

      Sometimes I wonder which side some folks are actually on. Gerry Hassan in Bella. The man doesn’t seem to modern European understand democracy and how it works.

      I get the impression that he somehow seeks a benign Caledonian dictatorship which will define and deliver the New Scotland.

      His thinking seems to me old style leftie.

      “Nowhere has there been any substantive progress on fleshing out and making real the politics, structures and ethos of a different kind of Scottish state, and the statecraft that would flow from that.”

      FFS! The people of Scotland will, in good time, define the Scotland they want. That’s an issue post Indy. That will be achieved by the normal democratic means which are so sadly lacking in Scotland.

      If a small huddle of ‘special people’ decide now what they think Scotland should be, all that will do is put off all those who disagree with that particular vision.

      The point of Indy is that those who live in Scotland are the ones who should be making ALL the decisions for Scotland. Nothing more.

      http://archive.is/cbuiK

    105. Breeks says:

      11pm on Friday 29th March 2019 is the dead man’s switch on Brexit. If nothing happens to stop it, or separate Scotland from the UK before the lights go out, or else negotiate for more time with the unanimous blessing of every EU member state, (a negotiation which would require Scotland to be recognised as a sovereign interlocutor), then Scotland will be out the EU at 11:01pm on Friday 29th March 2019.

      There is everything to be gained by preventing that exit before it actually happens. It could be catastrophic if we allow it to happen, and thus forfeit all the unique precedence of our one-off situation, not to mention unleashing any number of disruptive interventions and vetos, and Barussoesque nightmares, hurdles and queues.

      To abandon one sovereign Scottish democratic mandate to Remain might (if you’re generous) be described as a misfortune. To abandon a second practicable sovereign mechanism to Remain in Europe without so much as a squabble is a damned sight worse than careless.

    106. Dan Huil says:

      We have the mandates; we have to use them.

    107. Robert Graham says:

      The coming Burns supper being attended by Scotland in Union supporters in Glasgow, it really would be unfortunate if someone sets the fire alarms off , or some disgruntled staff member pissed in the Whisky , or heaven forbid spat in the Haggis or added a little Laxative ,

      Remember SIU supporters your friends will not be serving you your supper , I suggest the rank hypocrisy of your members trying to become Scotsmen and Women might just give the minimum wage staff a wee encouragement to make it a night to remember , careful how you go now .

    108. galamcennalath says:

      PictAtRandom says:

      the potential jackpot comes from holding it as late as 2023-24

      That relies on an Indy majority in Holyrood2021.

      If there hasn’t been an IndyRef before then, that election will be fought mainly on party political lines. We run a very serious risk that Indy/SNP supporters just won’t turn up, like they didn’t in GE2017. Half a million just didn’t get off their arses,

      There might be a pro Indy majority in Holyrood2021, but the risks of not getting one are ENORMOUS. The Unionist know this and they will throw everything at winning. It is their make or break election.

      I trust Nicola to chose the best time for Indyref2.

      If transition talks break down in the coming months, which they might well, then the timing could be soon.

      If the transition talks ‘go well’ and it’s EU as usual for 2years, then timing might be later. After BrexitDay even, IMO.

      If the talks on the framework of a trade agreement imply a hard Brexit, then timing might be between the above two.

      Also, we must avoid a winter vote, if possible, IMO.

      Things will be much clear by summer this year.

    109. Bill McLean says:

      Heavens above! Mr Alexander – what part of tactics don’t you understand?
      Can’t you work out why Nicola is pushing for a “soft Brexit”?

    110. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Gerry Hassan
      In order to think outside of the box, it helps to step outside the box first. That counts doubly for UKOKian utilitarian empiricism.

      Causation, structure and the case for critical realism – Dr. Timothy Rutzou
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCEktTDdBIM

    111. yesindyref2 says:

      UK debt and our per capita share (WITHOUT any adjustments for our previous history of geographical oil revenues)

      2003 : £ 356 billion Scotland per capita = £ 30 billion
      2018 : £1800 billion Scotalnd per capita = £150 billion

      The broad shoulders of the UK’s Debtor Together, nothing changes since 1707. They create the debt, we pay for it. Scotland could have been Independent in 2003 – or earlier.

      Angry yet about Scottish Labour’s sell-out in 1978-79?

    112. Clydebuilt says:

      O/T. Crowdfunded TV channel will celebrate the quirks of British life . . . .

      https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/lifestyle/entertainment/crowdfunded-tv-channel-will-celebrate-quirks-of-british-life/

      Lots of links to articles on this, all with same wording.

      Even has its own Wikipedia page.

      200 individual shareholders, Sky, Big Lottery Fund & public broadcasters.

      Alexander Kann Ceo.

      So if Yessers crowdfunding a TV station promoting an Independent Scotland, it would be granted a License to broadcast?

    113. Dave Robb says:

      @ Bill McLean – sorry, but I was really enjoying this thread, skipping past the irrelevance, until you had to break ranks. He’ll just fill up space now.

    114. Moonlight says:

      It is quite possible that within 4 years there will be a majority for reunification of Ireland. At that point the Tories can wash there hands of such nice thoughts as alignment or no deviation or whatever the DUP call it this week.

      At that point they will get their head and failing some miracle will turn all their guns on Scotland. It is my view that time is limited, not a situation of our making but nonetheless one we will have to deal with. Only absolute surrender will be expected.
      And no Marshall plan for us.

      Beyond that point, any hope of maintaining the acquis will be gone and there will be no EU breathing down WMs neck with such tiresome principles such as minority rights and democracy.

      There may of course be an event prior to that point in time, but if there is no plan to seize the moment even massive outrage felt by the people of Scotland may not be enough or quick enough.

      I have faith in the SG, they are not daft. Nicola is a lawyer and any lawyer is always ready for the unexpected from the other side in a trial. Therefore I am confident that there are in place several plans, each appropriate to the different situations which we might face.

      I am impressed with the potential of a block chain voting system and there have been tiny hints that the SG is involved in its development. Such a system could be activated at any time necessary, no waiting for the better weather to arrive. How the electorate is informed of its existence and the need to register is another matter. But, impressed by the PPB, the potential for using the internet is clear. If the youngsters and not so young are informed via social media then they can be relied upon to tell Granny and to help her with all these newfangled dodahs.

      Although whether or not I could convince my 100 year old mother is not something I will take bets on.

    115. Thepnr says:

      @HandandShrimp

      The amendment requiring a minimum vote of 40% of the electorate went through against Callaghan’s wishes by 166 to 151 (also seen reference to a vote of 168 to 142). The 34 Labour “rebels” were more than enough to ensure that this amendment would be passed.

      There were 630 MP’s in Westminster at that time so where then were the other 313 MP’s that night? Which parties did the missing MP’s represent? I’ve no idea and can’t find the actual breakdown of the vote that night by party.

      Interesting snippet, the above vote took place on Burns Night 25th Jan 1978 (Unionist trolling?). Also on St Valentines day (more trolling?) 3 weeks later Dennis Canavan proposed an amendment to remove the “40% rule” this was defeated by 298 votes to 248.

      If anyone can find the breakdown of these votes by party affiliation I’m sure many here would appreciate it.

    116. Robert Peffers says:

      @Northern Islander says: 23 January, 2018 at 12:36 pm:

      “it’s got b***** all to do with West Lothian and there is one very obvious solution…”

      It is called the West Lothian Question because it was the MP for West Lothian that asked it.

      The Labour Party man that asked it was The Labour MP Tam Dalyell.Who, BTW, was born in England.

      “Sir Thomas Dalyell of the Binns 11th Bt. more commonly known as Tam Dalyell (pronounced ‘dee-yell’) (born August 9, 1932) is a British politician; a Labour member of the House of Commons.

      Dalyell was born in England but raised in the family home (The Binns) in Edinburgh, (cough! I wouldn’t like to crawl from Edinburgh to the Binns):-

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_the_Binns

      His father was an “old school” Empire civil servant and through his mother he is a hereditary baronet. He was educated at Eton College. He was a soldier with the Royal Scots Greys from 1950 to 1952 for his national service. He then went to King’s College, Cambridge to study history and economics, where he ran the Conservative Association. Unusually, he then trained as a teacher at Moray House College in Edinburgh and taught at a non-selective school and a ship school. He joined the Labour Party in 1956 after the Suez. He has been a MP since June 1962, when he defeated William Wolfe of the Scottish National Party in a hard fought by-election contest for West Lothian. From 1983 onwards he has represented Linlithgow (basically a renaming of his West Lothian seat) and has easily retained his position as their representative since then. He has been the Father of the House since the 2001 General Election, after Sir Edward Heath retired. He was a MEP from 1975 to 1979, and a member of the Labour National Executive from 1986 to 1987 for the Campaign group. “

      See that? Just your common or garden representative of the Scottish working man.
      Aye!
      Richt!

      He soon realised his big mistake after being educated at Eton and Cambridge, (were he ran the Conservative Association), and serving in the Scots Guards.

      Just your average working class labour party in Scotland Labour party man.

    117. Andrew Morton says:

      As someone who was around at the time and followed the whole debate, I never believed that Cunningham was the originator of the 40% rule idea. Even at the time it was obvious that he was a convenient straw man. I don’t buy the idea that Cook just somehow came up with the idea on his holidays either.

      My view was always that the idea came from the highest reaches of the Labour government. The Scotland Act was designed to distract the Labour party and the country from the fact that they had a policy vacuum and also served to ‘dish the Nats’. That there was never any serious intent to pass the Act into law is proved by Jim Sillars’ anecdote about his encounter with the Labour Chief Whip Bob Mellish after the referendum. Sillars was disconsolate and Mellish said, “For goodness sake Jim, you didn’t think we were serious about devolution, did you?”.

    118. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Fred (10.58) –

      There are many legitimate questions surounding the sudden death of Robin Cook, and you have every right to raise them.

    119. Thepnr says:

      @Clydebuilt

      That new crowdfunded(Aye right!)TV channel with 200 shareholders such as SKY and existing broadcasters is gobsmacking.

      It just shows shear unadulterated desperation of the Unionist with the possibility that Scotland might vote for her Independence.

      The best laugh was that the new station is called..”together” 🙂

      https://archive.is/zWef4

    120. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Derick fae Yell @ 15:26,

      Good for you, but frankly I don’t give a toss what you did back whenever. I’m looking forward, not backward. Your consistent attempts since IR1 to persuade people of immense difficulties and delay, delay, delay are clearly intended to further your own personal (and increasingly-unpopular) Leaver-Lite agenda. They are nobody’s policy but your own.

      We have been promised a referendum within the term of this Holyrood Parliament, whatever you may think or wish. Nothing the FM has said has contradicted that. Kicking the can down the road for years as you seem to prefer will lose us this heaven-sent opportunity, our best chance of changing minds for a very long time.

      Post March.2019 everybody bar hard-core yessers will accept a fait accompli and it will be “goodnight Vienna”. Is that so very hard to understand?

      Which is why the delay, delay stagnation strategy you seem to share with the Bella crowd is fundamentally misguided and ultimately pernicious.

      Frankly I would much rather trust the FM on this call any day than you.

    121. Another Union Dividend says:

      Robert Peffers at 5.53

      Tam Dalyell was indeed an eccentric Old Etonian who was a thorn in the side of governments but was nevertheless a paid-up member of the British Establishment.

      Born the Baronet Rt Hon Thomas Loch, he was a direct descendant of James Loch of Clearances infamy and also a descendent of Bluidy Tam Dalyell who hunted down the Covenanters.

      His parents changed the family name to Dalyell in order to inherit Binns and when selected to fight 1962 By Election in West Lothian local Labour officials changed his name to “Tam” to make him appear more working class. In the By-Election, Billy Wolfe came second and put the SNP on the map.

      No friend of Scotland, as well as playing a critical role in preventing devolution in 1979, he failed to speak out on the transfer of the 6000 square miles of North Sea in 1998. The boundary shift was established by an order carried out at Westminster under the Scottish Adjacent Boundaries Order (1999).

      The order was passed by the House of Lords and the Committee on Delegated Legislation on 23 March 1999, but was not openly debated in the Commons.

      It was moved by McLeish – then a Scottish Office minister and received minimal opposition from a committee containing three other Scottish MPs – Tam Dalyell, Sir Robert Smith and John McAllion.

      He was however always courteous towards opponents – unlike many of his Labour colleagues.

    122. Robert Peffers says:

      @HandandShrimp says: 23 January, 2018 at 2:50 pm:

      “Love to hear Theresa recite Ode to a Mouse”

      To be fair, HandandShrimp, Robert Burns had come in for some criticism for only writing in the Lowland Scots language and in two poems he included one verse in perfect English:-

      To a Mouse”.

      Wee, sleekit, cowran, tim’rous beastie,
      O, what a panic’s in thy breastie!
      Thou need na start awa sae hasty,
      Wi’ bickering brattle!
      I wad be laith to rin an’ chase thee,
      Wi’ murd’ring pattle!

      I’m truly sorry Man’s dominion
      Has broken Nature’s social union,
      And justifies that ill opinion,
      Which makes thee startle,
      At me, thy poor, earth-born companion,
      And fellow-mortal!

      I doubt na, whyles, but thou may thieve;
      What then? poor beastie, thou maun live!
      A daimen-icker in a thrave ‘S a sma’ request:
      I’ll get a blessin wi’ the lave,
      An’ never miss’t!

      Thy wee-bit housie, too, in ruin!
      It’s silly wa’s the win’s are strewin!
      An’ naething, now, to big a new ane,
      O’ foggage green!
      An’ bleak December’s winds ensuin,
      Baith snell an’ keen!

      Thou saw the fields laid bare an’ wast,
      An’ weary Winter comin fast,
      An’ cozie here, beneath the blast,
      Thou thought to dwell,
      Till crash! the cruel coulter past
      Out thro’ thy cell.

      That wee-bit heap o’ leaves an’ stibble,
      Has cost thee monie a weary nibble!
      Now thou’s turn’d out, for a’ thy trouble,
      But house or hald.
      To thole the Winter’s sleety dribble,
      An’ cranreuch cauld!

      But Mousie, thou are no thy-lane,
      In proving foresight may be vain:
      The best laid schemes o’ Mice an’ Men,
      Gang aft agley,
      An’ lea’e us nought but grief an’ pain,
      For promis’d joy!

      Still, thou art blest, compar’d wi’ me!
      The present only toucheth thee:
      But Och! I backward cast my e’e,
      On prospects drear!
      An’ forward, tho’ I canna see,
      I guess an’ fear!

      Burns did exactly the same in his poem, “To a Mountain Daisy”.

      Have a look for it:-

      To a Mountain Daisy: On turning one down with the plough in April 1786

      Wee, modest, crimson-tipped flow’r,
      Thou’s met me in an evil hour;
      For I maun crush amang the stoure
      Thy slender stem:
      To spare thee now is past my pow’r,
      Thou bonie gem.

      Alas! it’s no thy neebor sweet,
      The bonie lark, companion meet!
      Bending thee ‘mang the dewy weet!
      Wi’ spreckl’d breast,
      When upward-springing, blythe, to greet
      The purpling east.

      Cauld blew the bitter-biting north
      Upon thy early, humble birth;
      Yet cheerfully thou glinted forth
      Amid the storm,
      Scarce rear’d above the Parent-earth
      Thy tender form.

      The flaunting flow’rs our gardens yield,
      High shelt’ring woods and wa’s maun shield;
      But thou, beneath the random bield
      O’ clod or stane,
      Adorns the histie stibble-field,
      Unseen, alane.

      There, in thy scanty mantle clad,
      Thy snawie bosom sun-ward spread,
      Thou lifts thy unassuming head
      In humble guise;
      But now the share uptears thy bed,
      And low thou lies!

      Such is the fate of artless Maid,
      Sweet flow’ret of the rural shade!
      By love’s simplicity betray’d,
      And guileless trust;
      Till she, like thee, all soil’d, is laid
      Low i’ the dust.

      Such is the fate of simple Bard,
      On life’s rough ocean luckless starr’d!
      Unskilful he to note the card
      Of prudent lore,
      Till billows rage, and gales blow hard,
      And whelm him o’er’.

      Such fate to suffering worth is giv’n,
      Who long with wants and woes has striv’n,
      By human pride or cunning driv’n,
      To mis’rys brink,
      Till, wrench’d of ev’ry stay but Heav’n,
      He, ruin’d, sink!

      Ev’n thou, who mourn’st the Daisy’s fate,
      That fate is thine — no distant date;
      Stern Ruin’s plough-share drives, elate,
      Full on thy bloom,
      Till crush’d beneath the furrow’s weight,
      Shall be thy doom!

    123. jfngw says:

      @Thepnr

      I had a look for the ‘Together’ crowdfunder, in case I wanted to contribute, I just can’t find it. It may be a grass roots channel just like No Borders was. A TV channel with only 200 funders, they must have deep pockets.

      It looks like it will be a extended version of The One Show, if you can stomach that.

    124. Thepnr says:

      Did quite a bit of reading today on all of this as it is an interesting subject. I wasn’t going to post this as it is a bit long but in light of Clydebuilt’s link to the brand new “crowdfunded” TV channel named “together” I thought I should.

      So I found this out today in relation to the Scotland Act 1978 from a HoC Library Research Briefing paper.

      No public funding was available for the Yes and No campaigns unlike in 1975 EEC referendum where £125,000 had been given to each of the two umbrella organisations, on condition that accounts of expenditure were published. In addition, two leaflets had been circulated to each household summarising the Yes and No case, and a separate document setting out the Government’s case for a Yes vote.

      In 1979 no grants were made to campaign organisations, but normal resources were available to ministers in furthering their policies. Umbrella organisations in the form of 1975 did not exist in 1979, and a study of the Scottish referendum found that as there were no national limits on expenditure and no requirement for public accounts “the public will never know precisely how much was spent on the campaign, where it all came from, nor how the expenditure was broken down”.

      Following a successful injunction brought by Brian Wilson (then anti-devolutionist) and Tam Dalyell and other officials of the Labour Vote No committee against the Independent Broadcasting Authority no party political broadcasts were shown during the referendum campaign.

      The court held that although three of the four political party broadcasts planned by the IBA after consultations with the major parties favoured a Yes vote, the statutory duty on the IBA to maintain a proper balance required approximately equal time for the Yes and No cases. Although the BBC was unaffected by the judgement an inter-party agreement could not be
      made.

      http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/RP97-92#fullreport

      Now we know though that 200 shareholders like SKY, the Big Lottery Fund and established broadcasters can “crowdfund” a brand new TV channel called “together” that “will celebrate what makes Britain great”.

      FFS makes a mockery of all rules relating to spending for political purposes especially in relation to a second referendum. These people are nuts, not even having the BBC, ITV and the print media on their side is considered to be enough.

      Definitely smacks of some kind of desperation on their part.

    125. TheWasp says:

      SNP to blame for the trams, John Swinney to blame for the trams but no mention of labour in Scotland being involved © BBC

    126. ronnie anderson says:

      Cook & Smith should be dug up an buried at sea Mariana Trench should be deep enough for those ("Tractor" - Ed)s .

    127. louis.b.argyll says:

      I am biased, admittedly, favouring the truth, naturally.

    128. yesindyref2 says:

      I read that article by Gerry Hassan and Alan Bissett’s excellent – restrained – response, and posted this, but over a year ago, more, got banned for questioning the editor over the “list vote for the SNP is wasted”, so it probably won’t appear.

      ————
      “The chances are high of Indy Ref 2 before 29th March 2019, and almost certain before the end of any transition period for Brexit, what still isn’t certain is Brexit itself, or even that it will take Scotland with it. That’s what the current hiatus is all about.

      There are lots of different views out there including this article, what is important is that when Indy Ref 2 is announced we all put unite and go all out for YES.”
      ————–

      (don’t know where that “put” came from!)

    129. Dan Huil says:

      This “clash” might well be the starting pistol, or at least the call to “take your marks”, for indyref2:

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/15889665.Clash_looms_between_Holyrood_and_Westminster_over_Brexit_continuity_bill/?ref=mr&lp=15

    130. Bob Mack says:

      @Yesindyref2,

      Those oil figures are good, especially when you compare them to countries like Norway ,Germany, Sweden, who all seem to have outperformed the UK in terms of revenues from the N Sea.
      most years.
      Funny that.

    131. Dr Jim says:

      Democracy:

      The First Minister has a job to do and that job is to represent all people of Scotland not just ME who voted YES but the folk who voted NO as well because not only does she have to do that job well but she has to be seen to do it well, fairly and for the whole country

      If the FM is seen at any time to be representing just one side all her efforts will be discredited and when the next referendum is called that will be the position of the opposition in that Nicola Sturgeon didn’t try hard enough and they will seek every reason to protest why not

      All of us armchair thinkers and critics have our opinions on timing but those of us who REALLY have our countries interests at heart acknowledge that we don’t know everything meaning the FM knows a little bit more about what’s happening than we do

      Scotland suffers from the same percentage of Arseholes and Nasties as every other country who will always do the only thing they’re capable of which is disrupt, and they’ll do it because that’s just who they are, cowardly bedroom snipers who have nothing in their hearts but the joy of sucking the lifeblood of others

      Unfortunately for us we have them here too and for what it’s worth if we don’t see them or hear them or talk to them then we take their joy away

      And I like that

    132. colin alexander says:

      Bill McLean

      I’ve said my view on SNP’s Soft Brexit. In the circumstances I’ve described ( Scotland as part of the UK longer term )then IT IS the right policy.

      The alternative reasoning – I’ve been told for the SNP’s Soft Brexit – is it makes transition from being part of the UK to independence easier with regard to staying in the Single Market.

      Transition period for the UK is for at least two years. c. 2021 at least.

      So, Scotland is going to be part of the UK, so obeying the rules of the Single Market until at least 2021.

      That begs the question: why is the SNP campaigning for permanent UK membership of the Single Market / Customs Union for the UK?

      I’m willing to accept my reasoning is wrong, if I get a better explanation.

    133. Thepnr says:

      @Dr Jim

      Couldn’t agree more, well said.

    134. yesindyref2 says:

      So carrying on from those figures if Scotland had got Devolution in 1979, and on the same timescale, Independence in 2003, the UK debt in 2003 was £356 billion, of which even if Scotland was dumb, daft and stupid and took the per capita share = £30 billion.

      That could have been paid off out of the oil revenues in just 5 years with £2.3 billion to spare, with a £50 billion bonus by now and much much more to come.

      So lurkers, do you want to pay any attention to the FUD? [1] Do you want to swallow the Labour line hook, line and sink to the bottom of the UK and down the plughole or will you vote YES next time and see Scotland flourish and bloom as an INDEPENDENT COUNTRY?

      FUD – Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt

    135. schrodingers cat says:

      @dr jim
      hear hear

      there are events which could happen in the next 12 months over which we have no control. eg, if we launched indyref2 tomorrow on the basis of being pulled out of the eu against our will and the mps at westminster somehow vote to reject the eu deal and manage to get the uk to stay in the eu (unlikely imho) what would nicola do then? take indyref2 back off the table again?? no, we need to wait until we can see the whites of brexits eyes before we make our move.

    136. Thepnr says:

      Sorry but I can’t get over this and must repeat myself. We’re getting a brand new TV channel called “together” dedicated to this:

      “celebrate what makes Britain great”

      Simply marvellous, SiU and the House Slaves will be most pleased. Imagine needing a whole new TV channel to combat the influence of the likes of Wings Over Scotland?

      Isn’t that ridiculous? 🙂 🙂

    137. Macart says:

      @Dr Jim

      Good post and well said.

    138. louis.b.argyll says:

      Thing about British nationalists/unionists is, even when they don’t need to lie, it’s still only the truth as they see it..not the whole truth.

    139. yesindyref2 says:

      Gracious Heavens, that posting DID appear on Bella, maybe peace is breaking out and all will be well with YES.

      @Bob Mack
      Indeed, and that doesn’t include more supportive policies towards the UKSC, which could have increased profitability and exploration while even keeping revenues the same. The Aberdeen based regulation is only starting to bite. Plus of course that great idea of a state operator, if it could come have happened / still could come off.

    140. Gregor says:

      Terrifying and disturbing news for a free society and free press. The corrupt Establishment’s war against alternative and social media (and for your mind) has arrived: “Government announces anti-fake news unit”: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42791218“

    141. Robert Peffers says:

      Just been hurting my already sore sides laughing at a text service news item:-

      Government Announces Anti-Fake News Unit

      The UK government is to establish a new unit to countr “fake news”, Downing Street has said.

      Theresa May’s spokesman said the, dedicated national security communications unit”, would be charged with, “combating disinformation by state actors and others”.

      “We are living in an era of fake news and competing narratives”, he said.

      The phrase, “fake news”, has recently emerged and is frequently used by US President Donald Trump.

      Does that mean Westminster is going to close down all BBC Radio as received in Scotland and BBC TV Scotland and STV?

      I can see lots of fun complaining about those fake reports we get from BBC Channel 232 for example.

      You get more fake news on, “Call Kaye”,(wi wan e’e), in five minutes than you can get on YouTube in a week and you couldn’t count fast enough to pick up all the fake news spewed out by Wee fat Nick Robinson in a twa minutes.

    142. yesindyref2 says:

      “Government announces anti-fake news unit”

      Ohmigud, it’s the end of the BBC as we know it, Jim.

    143. galamcennalath says:

      Gregor says

      fake news

      Theresa May’s spokesman said the “dedicated national security communications unit” would be charged with “combating disinformation by state actors and others”.

      “We are living in an era of fake news and competing narratives,” he said.

      …. and said with not a hint of irony !

      I have some real news …. Scotland wouldn’t be where it is today without pro UKOK fake news!

      Then again, the Tories are well aware of that reality.

    144. Thepnr says:

      @Gregor

      Page not found error, you left a quotation mark at the end of the link. Hope you don’t mind but I’ve archived the article rather than give the BBC more links.

      However the article is a belter, something defintely has them worried.

      Theresa May’s spokesman said the “dedicated national security communications unit” would be charged with “combating disinformation by state actors and others”.

      https://archive.is/agrhU

    145. Capella says:

      Isn’t “fake news” just another way of saying “lies”. The British Government is setting up a unit to combat lies by state actors and others. Oh, the irony!

    146. ronnie anderson says:

      Ha ha Westminsters Fake news Unit.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7qQ6_RV4VQ

      They get found out every day of the week loll.

    147. Bill McLean says:

      Dave Robb – I rarely comment on here as I don’t have time to read entire threads. For Mr Alexander at 7.13pm. You really don’t understand what Nicola, in her role as First Minister, with independence as her/our raison d’etre, is doing?

    148. Macart says:

      @Yesindyref2

      Read Mr Hassan’s piece. TBF I’m pretty certain I could’ve described the content before actually reading it, but that’s by the by.

      Excellent responses from Mr Bisset and Doug Daniel and a pretty fair one from Pat Kane t’boot. Also yes, your post made it up there. 🙂

    149. Bill McLean says:

      Dave Robb – apologies, I rarely comment on here as I don’t have time to read entire threads. For Mr Alexander at 7.13pm. You really don’t understand what Nicola, in her role as First Minister, with independence as her/our raison d’etre, is doing?

    150. Bill McLean says:

      Apologies all! “rarely comment on here” but when I do see what I’ve done.

    151. Macart says:

      @Capella

      “Isn’t “fake news” just another way of saying ‘lies’?”

      Pretty much. They’re good at coming up with buzz words and phrases to avoid calling something what it actually is. Considering how compromised the UK media is and given that Leveson wasn’t all that long ago, their hope that the populations of the UK suffer mass short term memory loss is mibbies a bit in vain.

    152. yesindyref2 says:

      @Macart
      Don’t read much Hassan, so wouldn’t know his normal style. I did like Pat Kane’s “Thanks Gerry for a provocative article in the best sense.”.

      There’s a lot of room for that at least, gets out there the variety of views around and gets people thinking. I like doing the odd bit of provocation myself 🙂

    153. Macart says:

      @Yesindyref2

      “I like doing the odd bit of provocation myself”

      Surely not? (cough) 😀

    154. Gregor says:

      Politcally motivated UK Regime’s new Fake News unit BBC article should be firming under the UK News section as it represents a fundamental shift in the pillars of UK democracy. Stalinist BBC is trying to suppress the article and has it under the BBC politics section (kinda right in a warped sense). At least the Uk public can now legitimately question every single MSM political/geo-political article as non-credible and non-trustworthy Fake News (re. UK Fake News – manipulators of public discourse – unit). The revenues of MSMN are going to get hit hard over this abomination.

    155. Fred says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood, thanks for the support on Cook’s demise. It has been a while since I cared tuppence but who was Cook with on the hill that day? the story changed. Of course people have heart-attacks?
      Was Dr Kelly’s death suspect, was Willie Macrae’s easily explained, why is the Dunblane case locked up & the key thrown away. Some day hopefully somebody will open their mouth!

    156. yesindyref2 says:

      😎

    157. Gregor says:

      Thanks @Thepnr. My guess is that this is a reactionary panic move by the UK gov and it has something do to with Trump (US election saga). BBC has been mass censoring (total silence) news of the alleged ‘bombshell’ FISA abuse memo & FBI lost text messages. I don’t support the politics of Trump, however, I recognise media corruption, collusion and unprecedented bias. It also conveniently provides UK gov with ‘tools’ to manipulate UK political opposition and general public, such as the independence movement. Either way – it is a total abomination and hopefully will prove extremely counterproductive.

    158. Peter B says:

      I wasn’t aware of the role of Cook and Cunningham had in the 40% rule. The Devolution bill was a major plank in Labour’s programme and as its failure, as Foot said, was the last straw for Labour. It led to 18 years of Conservative rule, which BTW we all had to endure (not just Scots). That said, the franchise followed the precedent of the EEC referendum in ’75. Politicians feel comfortable following precedent because they can reasonably argue that if it was good enough for them then it is good enough for us. If you fast forward to 2013, when Nicola was asked about the proposed franchise for the independence referendum, she said that she was just following the precedent of the’98 devolution referendum.

      I was a student at GSA between ’76-79. During 1978 an evening lecture was organised for John Smith to speak about devolution. At the time he was a junior miniister working on the devolution legislation. He was very embarrased because only six people turned up: the organiser, three Malasian, two Ugandian

    159. twathater says:

      Watched the LCM debate from Scot parl ,if I lived abroad and watched James Kelly closing for Labour I would think no wonder Scotland can’t get indy , if your reps are all as thick as this TUBE you don’t deserve it

      I must admit I was embarrassed at Kelly’s , wee willie winkie ,and Jamie DUMPLING Greens incomprehensible contributions .

      How can any right thinking person think these TWATS are fit to represent them never mind Scotland , nae wonder wastemonster thinks they can treat us like shite when we have incompetent dougnuts like these in our Scottish Parliament . Thank god we have SNP intelligent people to represent Scotland and attempt to hold these lying barstewards to account . Unless all conditions are met a LCM should be refused and I for one would look forward to a constitutional crisis

    160. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Fred –

      You’re very welcome.

      I don’t know how old you are but it’s quite possible that we’ll be long dead and gone when all the truth(s) are known, but when they are? it’ll be a source of astonishment that any of us believed the non-stop shite we’ve been force-fed most of our lives.

      A lot of us have had our eyes opened re the fairytales and nonsense about ‘Scotland’, and this place has helped a lot. Well, it’d be sheer vanity and ignorance to imagine that the same process of liberating self-education doesn’t apply to many other areas of modern life as well as history, no matter how unpleasant the implications may be.

      😉

    161. Morag says:

      Seriously, I truly believe the Tories approached promising University Students who were willing to be Moles in the Labour Party.

      Now THAT is a conspiracy theory I certainly wouldn’t kick out of bed for eating crackers. There’s a lot oc circumstantial evidence pointing that way.

    162. Tinto Chiel says:

      Fred @9.01, this is a version of events:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Cook#Death

    163. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      One thing I’ve noticed over the past week or three is the number of new usernames (former lurkers?) appearing in the comments btl (below the line).

      The more the merrier!

    164. Dr Jim says:

      Talking of fake news reminded me of the Army Chief of Staff Nick Carter who made a public speech regarding The UKs futility of trying to defend or indeed Britain attempting to attack anyone because the military forces of the UK are bereft of well, forces

      My personal belief is this was a UK ordered intervention by Nick Carter and not as I think he pretended a plea for cash for the armed forces but a scare tactic to divert from Brexit and to instill a sense of confidence in the preservation of a Conservative Government as folk in England are generally more disposed to voting Conservative if they think there’s going to be any kind of war like conflict

      I do not believe for one nano second this was his idea because if it was he would have to know that within the year he’d be found with the side of his head blown off with his own pistol and a note in his own handwriting stating that due to terrible depression alcohol addiction or porn being found on his private computer he could face the disgrace of life no more

      In Nick Carters speech however he did admit something of more significance to us here in Scotland when he referenced the 77th Brigade as a real and vital part of the British Governments online defence who are working round the clock monitering and protecting UK interests

      He also praised the work of the staff who work specifically on social media platforms

      A draw your own conclusions moment

    165. Dr Jim says:

      Bella Caledonia:

      What kind brainless articles fund this finger pointy drivel
      who do they think they are BBC Scotland? STV?

      If you’re not part of the solution then you’re part of the problem plus it makes Bella Caledonia look like a kids Nya Nya comic

    166. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Isn’t “dedicated national security communications unit” the 77th Brigade?

      “What 77 Brigade does is it pulls together much of our force structure that’s involved in the employment of soft effects, whether it is the Security Stabilisation Group, the linkages we have through that to DFID, whether it’s Psychological
      Operations or the Media Operations Group who are increasingly learning much about how they apply social media to achieve an effect. 77 Brigade is going to advance this approach of Integrated Action, and in a sense it is a new way of operating and I think it plays into this idea of constant competition”

      Also makes Colonel Gadafties Honorary post with 32 Signals Regiment even more dodgy.

    167. Gregor says:

      Fake News enablers: Industry ‘regulators’ – IPSO & OFCOM are now irrelevant.

    168. Mary miles says:

      Hi from Tassie

      Looking at the news over the past weeks, those who fight for Scottish Independence must become increasingly incredulous at the foolish attitude throughout the whole of Britain.

      Poverty and children suffering and continue to suffer for the rest of their lives.

      Decades of Scotland losing good people overseas and down to England because successive English run governments have ignored Scotland’s needs.

      My grandfather served in the Gordon Highlanders for many years, wounded in WW1 and having a great love of his old Regiment (which was disgracefully disbanded in 1994) and after he left was forced to seek work in London. (Perhaps Stuart could relate to having to leave Scotland to take up work in Bath). Was anything worthwhile done to make life better for any of the soldiers who served. Probably better men than the Churchill who is idolised now.

      And all that is wrong throughout UK today even though we are now in the 21st Century and the SNP are trying their hardest to improve Scotland for the future, brainwashed people continue to want to stay in a UK which continues to destroy Scotland.

      Never mind though the UK still has the soapie of the English royal family to brighten their lives and take their attention and money away from their own families and their futures. When I see ordinary people gathering around the gates at Buckingham Palace for news of the arrival of a new baby, I want to scream “Go home and look after your own children”. Some of whom of course might be used as cannon fodder in the years to come.

      Please people of Scotland look at the whole picture, see the future, grow in wisdom and move forward with love for your own people, your own country. To create a Scotland to support the people who love her and want to die there as some of us have not been given the opportunity to do. For hundreds of years 100% of my family lived and died in Scotland until the 1930’s and my maternal Grandfather had to leave to seek work. Our love for Scotland has never died!

      Yes there are thousands of people who don’t pull their weight and always will but as Nicola says, independence will bring a new pride to Scotland. Nothing in life is ever guaranteed in life but as the Earl of Montrose once said:

      He either fears his fate too much or his deserts are small who dares not put it to the touch to win or lose it all. (Excuse any slight misquote).

      Fear of the new but is the future any more certain for Scotland whatever government gets into Westminster in future, and Scotland’s vote will never found.

      For the sake of all those who live to see an Independent Scotland fight for Independence!! And do it for your ancesters who never had a vote on the union in 1707.

      Love to all Wingers who care about Scotland.

    169. Arthur thomson says:

      @liz 3.24pm

      My thoughts entirely.

      The Scotbutt socialists are right now working on the destruction of the independence movement. They have a dream of a socialist utopia stretching all the way to their barbed wire border at Calais. They are such unprincipled people, proven over the last 50 years at least.

    170. Macart says:

      @Mary Miles

      Well said. 🙂

    171. yesindyref2 says:

      OT
      Just found this in reply to a letter in The National:

      https://landcommission.gov.scot/2017/12/land-commission-to-look-at-potential-for-land-value-taxes-in-scotland/

      “The Scottish Land Commission is asking for tenders to investigate international experience in land value taxes to identify policy options for Scotland.

      The Land Commission has issued a notice on Public Contracts Scotland (PCS) asking for contractors to submit tenders to carry out research in to the range of ways land value taxes have been used. This will inform future consideration of land value taxation options for Scotland based on the experiences of other countries.

      Land value taxation is a tool for raising public revenue through an annual charge based on the rental value of land and typically levied against the unimproved value of that land not taking into account any buildings, services or infrastructure.

      . . .

      Completed quotes must be submitted via PCS by 12:00 noon on the 19 January 2018.”

    172. frogesque says:

      O/t
      Caught the R. Shortbread news bulletin at 9.00pm.

      Slabber hate piece on the Royal Alexander Paisley closure was top slot. Apparently it also rained somewhere today and the usual murder, police and footy.

      Not a peep about Holyrood being united on the vote to withhold legislative consent on clause 11 Brexit fiasco.

      We don’t need fake news, we want the real news.

    173. yesindyref2 says:

      Re above, from a FOI I found earlier, it looks like the Scottish Government would legislate LVT, but local councils would levy it, which makes sense as they would know their areas better.

    174. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Mary miles at 9.55

      Great post

    175. galamcennalath says:

      Predictable, the loony right spooked by the suggestion that the transition deal will be EU as normal ie a Norway style arrangement for two years.

      Rees-Mogg saying any transition deal replicating the status quo will be seen as a failure of negotiation.

      So, where to now? Go with the EU’s position and face down the right? Or, fail to get a transition deal? Or, fantasise about cherry picking again for months?

      http://archive.is/ZVQpN

    176. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Another Union Dividend @ 18:34:

      Tam Dalyell was indeed an eccentric Old Etonian who was a thorn in the side of governments but was nevertheless a paid-up member of the British Establishment.

      Oh, he was the Unionists’ uber-Unionist. Many Labour people in Scotland were eventually reconciled to devolution, but many of their MPs notoriously never were – instead bemoaning their own increasing irrelevance – and Dalyell was the most implacable of the lot.

      IMV, the so-called “West Lothian Question” which he spawned should never have been named after his then constituency just because he first “asked” it (or more accurately, punted it); it should have been called “The Westminster Question”, because that greedily “all-sovereign” body always had the full power to do something constructive about giving the English their separate say on matters purely English, but deliberately and doggedly chose not to do so. English == British being the typical Establishment view.

      He was totally against devolution to the bitter end. Shortly before his passing he recorded a last interview with Kirsty Wark around the time of IR1, in which he (as I recall) lambasted Labour over the issue, but was loyal enough to the party to deliberately withhold any public airing until after the referendum, correctly recognising that his forthright views would only have recruited more for “yes”.

    177. TheWasp says:

      Do you think “Colin Alexander” will continue in his present position of spouting fake news for Westminster, or will he transfer to another platoon to hunt it down for Oor Treeza

    178. CameronB Brodie says:

      Those will be Russian state actors, I suppose? It’s the vagueness of “others” that worries me.

    179. Sinky says:

      frogesque says:

      The BBC has a long history of ignoring stories that do not comply with their London centric view of the world.

      This evening’s coverage of the Paisley children’s ward failed to mention that the new much improved hospital is far better equipped to provide the latest clinical treatment than the old outdated hospital and is only 10 minutes drive away.

      But don’t let the facts get in the way of the BBC’s anti SNP agenda.

    180. Tam the Bam. says:

      O/T

      ‘Gormless Greene’ on STV Tonight….what a tube!

    181. galamcennalath says:

      Devolution was only ever intended to be a veneer of democracy for Scotland. The plan was, Unionist branch offices would ensure Scotland simply mirrored WM and sung from the same song sheet.

      However some, like Dalyell, believed deviation in policy was inevitable for Scotland and that endangered their Union.

      Those who wanted to keep the UK as Greater England were aware of the potential threat from devolution and opposed it. England was their model and everywhere across the UK should mimic that whenever possible.

      From an über Yoon perspective, Dalyell has been proven correct.

    182. Colin Alexander says:

      Can anybody explain to me why the SNP want the UK to have permanent membership of the Single Market, when it’s already going to be two years minimum Brexit transition?

      Is two years no enough to go indy?

      Also two years from Brexit is 2021, when the SNP’s mandate for indyref ends.

      Current opinion polls ( which mean little for 3 years away) suggest not enough seats in 2021 at the Scot Parl for another indyref mandate.

      So, if the mandate has to be used, and we’re going to get indy, why is the SNP campaigning for a permanent UK situation????

    183. Sinky says:

      Telegraph readers frothing over on their English breakfast to-morrow

      SNP ‘eradicates’ Union flag from Scottish government buildings with Saltire to fly alone on royal occasions

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/23/snp-eradicates-union-flag-scottish-government-buildings-saltire/

    184. Muscleguy says:

      I agree with everyone above to Hell with Scottish Labour though I doubt even Hell can mend them. Burning in the eternal fires is too good for the tractors of SLab.

      What a parcel o’ rogues in a nation.

    185. Colin Alexander says:

      “Fears are mounting that only those accused of the most serious crimes will be held in police custody after being charged, under a radical overhaul of the justice system”.

      Herald comment:

      So, will the parents that give their child an occasional smacked bottom, to teach them right from wrong, be locked up? Will that be a serious crime?

      What about the parents who will now not chastise or discipline their children? When that child grows up they will think he/she can do whatever they want because they weren’t chastised as children – because the parents feared being prosecuted or branded bad parents under the SNP’s Named Person Scheme.

      When that child grows up to commit criminal acts, because they grew up thinking they can get away with anything. They won’t get locked up under the soft touch SNP.

      So they will still think they can do whatever they want. We need to wait till that person seriously injures or murders some innocent soul before they are properly punished and are taught right from wrong.

      No wonder even the independists are losing faith in the SNP.

      I thought Holyrood was a £414 million leaky wood and concrete monstrosity for the SNP to pretend they are a real government.

      It seems Holyrood has become the SNP’s ivory tower, as they don’t seem to live in the real world anymore.

    186. K1 says:

      Yes, rescinding devolution seems to be the actual point of Brexit if ye think on it. They can’t stop the inevitable independence that will result even if it would have been a slower affair post 2014, as part of Europe we were protected in many ways that many do not yet understand. But in isolating Scotland and stripping the parliament of its powers, which is what the power grab is about, then we shall see what their true motivations have always been.

      But who will not fight against that in Scotland, without the EU’s protections we effectively do become a region of England, just as they have always imagined we are.

      We shall see.

    187. galamcennalath says:

      Difficult to find fault (I think anyway) with James Kelly at Scot Goes Pop ….

      http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2018/01/an-independence-referendum-in-2019-or.html

      Nicola Sturgeon is serious about the option of a referendum in 2019 or 2020. ….. If anything, the statements have only been getting bolder in recent weeks.

    188. Colin Alexander says:

      Muscleguy

      Scottish Labour do indeed deserve to be history.

      But, if the SNP fail to deliver and win an indyref by 2021, Scottish Labour would probably win loads of seats, as many of the pro-independists will no longer see any point in voting SNP, as happened at the 2017 UK General Election, where the SNP lost half a million votes.

    189. HandandShrimp says:

      Colin

      Haven’t read the Herald for ages…I see it has completed its transformation into a parody of the Daily Mail.

      It is little wonder its readership has diminished.

    190. Gary45% says:

      Anyone hear “Roaster Coburn” on GM Shortbread this morning.
      Who voted for this erse?
      Embarrassing.

    191. jfngw says:

      I thought the Herald and the Scotsman were just the east and west coast in house SiU journals, am I mistaken? The way things are headed it may be cheaper or them to just deliver these papers to the individuals directly and cut their distribution costs.

    192. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      galamcennalath @ 22:51,

      In a funny way, although poles apart, the Labour devolutionists and anti-devolutionists were both right. Dalyell was at least outspokenly honest about his position. The problem with his opponents was, as you correctly divine, that fat too many weren’t!

      For them it was merely a fix to maintain their “rightful” =cough= ascendancy in Scotland and stifle the challenge presented by the SNP. But if they had honestly adhered to the oft-stated view that “devolution is a process, not an event”, that might well also have preserved the Union.

      Even as late as Smith, an honest appraisal of Scotland’s fair due after the shock of nearly losing everything might arguably have kept the UK together by flexibly accommodating the necessary diversity.

      It is, after all, what Belgium did over the last decade or to in order to accommodate its own centrifugal forces, and after quite a bit of political turmoil, appears to have done so fairly successfully.

      But we will never know, I suppose. Labour funked Smith even more than all the other Unionist partisans, and its leadership hasn’t even come to terms with what it did even now. And shows ever less inclination to try. (Sorry, Labour federalists, but that’s the plain truth.)

      In the meantime, the rest of us have moved on, Brexit being only the latest example of how our fair due is routinely and cavalierly traduced.

      Looking forward, there is no conceivable form of Union which could protect and guarantee our rights, and therefore the only viable course for us left to take to be on an equal standing to our closest neighbour is as a separate country.

      Labour must bear much of the responsibility for steadily more and more of us reaching that inevitable conclusion.

    193. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      me @ 11:28,

      Oops, that should of course be “far too many”.

    194. HandandShrimp says:

      Gary

      I had forgotten he exists. Shirley it is his turn to be leader of that shower of roasters. Everybody else has had a shot at it.

    195. ben madigan says:

      with regards to the timing of IndyRef2 –
      people are talking about early 2019 after a winter campaign or early autumn 2019 after a summer campaign
      I would prefer things to be settled before March/April 2019 when England+Wales exit the EU.
      Northern Ireland’s not leaving, so it’s up to Scotland to make sure she doesn’t.
      That is why I think an immediate campaign followed by a vote in Sept/Oct 2018 (when we know the outcome of the brexit negotiations) might not be a bad idea.
      Waiting through ratification and transition/implementation periods muddies the waters and might create difficulties for Scotland re the EU and re the UK.

    196. yesindyref2 says:

      I think IE2 should be before 29th March 2019, but I guess as long as the date of one is announced before that date, it achieves the purpose.

      Basically speaking the Brexit agreement will be for the whole UK, and if Scotland might not constituonally be part of the UK, than unless that circumstance is specifically catered for in the agreement, the agreement under the Article 50 is invalid in terms of the UK Constitution, and neither the UK nor the EU-27 can proceed without amending the agreement to exclude Scotland, or make provisional arrangements.

      Which is precisely why the S30 authorisation will be given urgently, when required.

    197. Thepnr says:

      @galamcennalath

      No one can have any idea behind whatever the strategy of the UK is over EU negotiations. Though I’m absolutely sure that they do have one.

      Thing is though, you don’t always get what you want and wishful thinking doesn’t make it anymore likely.

      Wasn’t it Tory Prime Minister Chamberlain on his return from talks with Hitler in Berlin that stated:

      My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British Prime Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time. We thank you from the bottom of our hearts. Go home and get a nice quiet sleep.

      Oops! Yes of course it was and he was another deluded fool.

    198. yesindyref2 says:

      IR2

    199. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Colin Alexander at 11.07

      ……but still got more seats than all the other parties put together

    200. Famou15 says:

      The most obvious vehicle for success in Indyref2 is the SNP.

      Let us see who wishes to sow dissention in the ranks of the SNP and thereby limit our chances?

      Bingo CA you win the prize for brass neckery in kidding on you are not a big bloated Unionist.

      Just sayin!

    201. Fred says:

      @ Ian & Tinto, some alternative thoughts on “Who Killed Cock Robin!”

      http://www.bilderberg.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=6

    202. Sinky says:

      jfngw says @ 23 January, 2018 at 11:28 pm
      “I thought the Herald and the Scotsman were just the east and west coast in house SiU journals, am I mistaken? The way things are headed it may be cheaper or them to just deliver these papers to the individuals directly and cut their distribution costs”.

      However BBC taking great delight in reporting falling National print and digital sales.

      If only 10% of Wings readers bought or subscribed to The National on a daily basis it would secure the future of the ONLY pro independence newspaper.

      http://www.thenational.scot/

    203. Thepnr says:

      For what it’s worth I think the earliest that a second referendum will be called is early summer of 2019 and here’s why.

      1. Nicola Sturgeon will not make another pronouncement on this matter before the terms of Brexit are known and being discussed by the EU.

      2, She could then in October this year call on the UK government for a response to the Section 30 order already requested. This letter from Nicola Sturgeon to Theresa May is important and if you’re truly interested I’d suggest that it’s worth reading.

      https://news.gov.scot/news/section-30-letter

      3. Theresa May will initially prevaricate before again stating that “Now is not the time” and refuse to discuss it until we exit the EU.

      4. Well into Winter and it’s likely we will exit the EU before another referendum is announced. At this very moment, maybe just maybe Nicola Sturgeon will set a date for the second Indepndence Referendum even without a Section 30 order.

      I’m pretty relaxed, it’ll happen when it happens after 308 years another year or two won’t matter. What matters is that we win, losing is not an option as it’s game over.

      Stay calm, be patient would be my advice. If your going “all in” in any gamble make sure you’re holding the winning cards or you through it all away and then your out of the game for a generation.

    204. Iain mhor says:

      O/T opinion on Indy campaign: apologies for length.

      There are 3 potential bites at the cherry.
      Indyref
      Scottish Elections (Indy ticket?)
      GE Indy (Indy ticket?)

      Taking Indyref off the table, leaves a mere two bites. It also betrays the electorate. Not clever.
      Removing Holyrood (because it’s shite as some here are adamant) gives but one bite of the cherry and removing the SNP from the driving seat (because apparently they are shite as well) leaves err.. no bites of the cherry.

      The Scottish Government is currently in tri-partite diplomatic negotiations because it is a competent government and because it is required to be. It’s why it is there. The electorate have told it to.
      It is required to negotiate domestically with Westminster on subjects relating to devolved government. As part of the ‘Member State’ of the UK it is required to be negotiating on matters pertaining directly to Brexit and ‘independently’ it’s required to be in discussions with the EU & other trading blocs for the best potential deals for Scotland as its entire raison d’etre.

      For instance: Article 218 of the Lisbon treaty provides for the EU to enter discussions & negotiations with any country – not specifically ‘Member States’ – any other country, on any potential trading agreements. There is no proviso there which excludes Scotland (as a 3rd party country) from doing so. Whether it is part of a ‘Member State’ engaged in ‘withdrawing’ is irrelevant. There is no exclusion principal in it. Similarly there is no bar to informal diacussions with any other trading bloc. Not engaging is incompetence.

      Not to understand the connectedness, not to understand why the Scottish Government is simultaneously arguing for the best deal for Scotland, the best deal for the UK and brokering deals for a potential Independent Scotland is at the very best naive, at worst – well I’ll be kind and say uninformed of government.

      When is the gun going to be fired on Indyref2 /Independence campaign?” – The Scottish Government has started. These negotiations are going to be the framework of any “White Paper” presented to the Scottish electorate. It won’t have to be made up quickly in a couple of months on the back of a fag packet. It won’t have to struggle for media time to inform the Scottish electorate of its plans – There they are. You’re seeing them every time there is a Brexit discussion on the MSM. Prior to an Indyref or election, the Scottish government will merely be reiterating plans and arguments everyone is already familiar with.

      If there is a possibility in an Indy Scotland, of EU or other trading bloc membership, then the “Oh it will take two or three years to negotiate yada yada” is nonsense. No it won’t. It will have been done. It is being done right now.
      “Would you require years of complex negotiations?” – “Nah, we’ve been over all the scenarios pretty much. For “UK” in Plan ‘B’ paragraph x y,z we’ll just insert “Scotland”… fancy lunch?”

    205. stewartb says:

      I suggest that a ‘shark was jumped’ here earlier tonight, at 10.58pm precisely!

    206. Chick McGregor says:

      As one who lived through the period and voted for devolution in my opinion, at least as big a villain of the piece was Sir Alec Douglas-Hume.

      11 months out from polling day the poll positions were Yes 63%, No 27%. Which even on a 64% turnout would have given a 40%+ result for devo, defeating Cunningham/Cook’s unprecedented ammendment.

      A D-H, who let us not forget had the kudos of having been a UK PM, promised that if Scots voted No the Tories, the government in waiting, would deliver a far more powerful settlement for Scotland.

      Many believed him and voted, or much more likely did not vote, because of him.

      His intervention, for me, explained the reverse scenario seen during indyref1 campaign.

      Thatcher, of course, immediately dropped devolution completely when she got in.

    207. Thepnr says:

      @stewartb

      Exactly, not difficult to notice if your looking is it.

      May I kindly suggest that no one should engage with the well known disruptive troll. Disruption has been kept to a minimum today allowing genuine posters to discuss the topic in hand in some depth.

      Please don’t feed the trolls, like stray cats they keep coming back for more. Ignore them and they will eventually find somewhere else to settle.

      These negative types are part of the problem that we want to solve. Don’t fall for it.

    208. Artyhetty says:

      re;Sinky@11.48pm
      O/T
      I am not surprised The National is always hidden, and my local sains just don’t have it in any more, maybe they get one and it’s gone first thing. But, the Britnats right wing rags don’t sell well either, often tons of them left at the end of the day. however, they are propped up by the Britnat establishment, so continue to print lies so no one can avoid the headlines when in the queue for their milk and bread. It’s the UKOK way of things.

      Keep watching trulyscottishtv.com.

    209. Hamish100 says:

      ot

      Ruth Davidson is too quiet. She is obviously plotting something or hiding. I think after her recent conversations and meetings with May she should inform the Scots Parliament what was discussed or be rightly accused of undermining our parliamentary democracy.

    210. Chick McGregor says:

      PS A D-H and Gordon Brown are in a very exclusive ‘Vow Club’.

    211. schrodingers cat says:

      i agree with the pnr and iain mhor

      the timing issue isnt entirely up to us and nicola’s tact is consistent with her position regarding the ruk.

      once again folks, i would remind everyone that there is a huge difference between what scotlands position will be after we vote yes and the deluge we will suffer during the indyref2 campaign

    212. Chick McGregor says:

      P.P.S

      Whitehall Memorandum:

      Must remember to have a token Jock PM every generation in case we need to play the ‘Vow’ card.

    213. Kangaroo says:

      @ Mary Miles 9:52
      Greetings from Jaspers Brush,NSW
      I agree with your sentiments wholeheartedly. I and my ancestors have had similar experiences.
      Without wanting to offend anyone, I likened living in Scotland to being in a dungeon where the jailers and torturers were Scottish Yoons and the governors were the Poms (love that descriptor).The only way out was to dig a tunnel and escape overseas, which I did in 1980. We have to now knock down the walls by voting YES, the timing must be left in the capable hands of NS and the SNP. When freedom comes it will be time to go home and celebrate like there is no tomorrow. Unchain the Unicorn.

    214. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Thepnr @ 23:56,

      The letter is an interesting read, even though it was sent in the heady days before the sudden and unexpected call of an early UKGE.

      An election which left May fatally weakened but also some in the SNP leadership – expecially the WM contingent – feeling (or fearing?) something of a loss of mojo. I have the impression though that they are lately beginning to recover their self-confidence, not least by realising that their losses might have resulted as much – or more – from a lack of assertiveness as from a surfeit of it. And with the ongoing UKGov comedy of errors that is Brexit, events continue to move in the SNP’s direction, despite the ever-more-desperate media attempts to maintain that the boat isn’t sinking, just settling a teensy bit lower in the water.

      Anyhow, the letter clearly envisages either acquiescence from UKGov to a S.30 order or a DIY version from the SG (with possibly the certainty of the latter ensuring the former). But if not, a referendum anyhow.

      So to me right now it still looks like Spring 2019 after a campaign starting in Oct of this year.

      But timing is all, and too much is still uncertain. Not all implying a delay either. Events may actually be set in motion earlier rather than later. The constitutional issues around the Power Grab Bill may bring things to a head before too long.

      Here’s why:

      + The constitutional principle that “all powers which are not specifically reserved are devolved” became an established part of the (unwritten) UK constitution in 1997. It was an outcome of the Constitutional Convention (NB the name!) that was agreed and signed by all participating parties, and was explicitly validated by the subsequent referendum then implicitly by the WM acts which re-convened Holyrood.

      (This BTW has nothing directly to do with Sewell motions as per the Scotland Act 2016, which are to do with agreed transfers of existing recognised competence.)

      + So if the UKGov overrides any existing devolved power, or unilaterally assumes any non-reserved power, it necessarily breaches the UK constitution.

      This is why the Tories are getting very nervous about this bill and any measures in it that cause such a breach.

      + But Art.50 of the Lisbon Treaty specifically requires that any leaving member can only depart by acting in accordance with the provisions of its own constitution.

      If Art.50 falls, Brexit stalls…

    215. yesindyref2 says:

      @RJS
      Indeed, and any challenge to that Article 50 in court could take some time to hear, appeal, maybe even ECJ. UK Gov don’t want that, hene Sturgeon has the upper hand and they know it.

    216. K1 says:

      Very good point RJS.

      If this:

      But Art.50 of the Lisbon Treaty specifically requires that any leaving member can only depart by acting in accordance with the provisions of its own constitution.

      is breached by the UK government, why are they attempting the power grab?

      They must know this surely? Why would they attempt to alter the unwritten constitutional set up of the UK with devolution in place, during these negotiations, knowing full well (the lawyers must know this, UK and EU end), that it is breaching Article 50?

      That’s what is curious about this power grab? Are they deliberately setting up obstacles to Brexit? Or are they stupid?

    217. Thepnr says:

      @K1

      Certain individuals within government may be stupid but I very much doubt the entire machinery of the UK government is anywhere near stupid.

      Thay have a plan and of that I am certain. Doesn’t mean their plan will work though. Look at David Davis sauntering through these negotiations. Why? He’s been told that’s the best thing to do meantime so he does it.

      They’re gambling that the UK will get a “good deal” especially for the City of London and that the EU will finally cave in. Well even a blind man can see that this strategy will fail.

      Canada Plus Plus Plus! What a joke but it’s not funny anymore.

    218. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      K1 @ 01:42,

      My own guess is that it’s the plain ignorance and self-centredness of UKGov, as per usual. As with the Irish border question. (Which incidentally also hasn’t gone away – far from it!) Probably combined with being privately overwhelmed by the sheer scale of everything, while putting a brave public face on it all. (Laurel & Hardy in difficulty come suddenly to mind. =grin=)

      It seems to be the Scots Tories who are getting most nervous, presumably because they can see where this could be heading. But is anyone in London caring or listening…?

      That’s what’s so puzzling, the sheer daftness and self-delusion that abounds. Nicola’s current tactic seems to be “don’t interrupt your opponent while she is making mistakes”, and why not indeed?

      The laugh is that Brexit and its evident mismanagement is one issue the MSM just can’t help but cover, whether Nicola herself is included or not.

      When the popular jokes start to fly, you’ll know it’s all over. Maybe that’s what the BritNats fear most about that recent PPB.

    219. yesindyref2 says:

      http://archive.is/igU1Y

      RBS is to leave its London headquarters by the end of next year in a cost-cutting move. [moving from 250 to 280 Bishopsgate] . . . It was from the London headquarters that disgraced former chief executive Fred Goodwin ran the bank before it needed a £45 billion taxpayer bailout at the end of 2008.

      So let me get this straight, the HQ for RBS was/is in Edinburgh so it’s Scotland’s bank and would have bankrupted Independent Scotland if we had been in 2008, but it’s not really it’s London’s bank and would have cost us not a penny. Ah, I get it.

    220. yesindyref2 says:

      @RJS / Thepnr / K1
      The Scottish Government have to play this by the book in case it ends up in court, though it won’t in the event (I think). Maybe they’re trying to push the SG into wrong moves. It is a puzzler though, unless next year the UK Gov let the SG stall Brexit, cancel it and blame the SG / SNP, and the 58% now in the UK not wanting Brexit heave a sigh of relief while the revolting Brexiteers shake their puny fists and stamp their feet at the SG not May. My Brian hurts, I’m going wackoooooh.

    221. K1 says:

      This Truly Scottish TV channel is really great, they have a dedicated Scottish Government channel too, which highlights a lot of local initiatives going on in Scotland, as well as focusing in on some of the major policy developments.

      We need to support this channel and spread the word, excellent content and high production values and a wonderful resource, reporting on all the good stuff happening in our communities and highlighting what these policies and initiatives are doing ‘on the ground’.

      Seriously good stuff. Here’s the list of all the segments that you can watch and their time durations so you can move forward to the ones that grab you:

      1. WELCOME TO TRULY SCOTTISH TV 25

      2. Scotland’s colleges delivering for all 1:18

      3. Place Standard Case Study – Kincardine Charrette 2:38

      4. Place Standard Case Study – Galashiels Academy 4:01

      5. New contract for GPs 1:28

      6. Scotland’s Place in Europe: people, jobs and investment 42:49

      7. Home Report Explained 7:05

      8. Tackling marine litter 1:20

      9. Child Poverty Bill 1:01

      10. National Manufacturing Institute for Scotland 47

      11. Unboxing 1:30

      12. Baby Box begins 1:27

      13. What’s in Scotland’s Baby Box? (Unboxing) 16:57

      14. Launch of STEM strategy 59

      15. VR Road Safety Scotland 3:15

      16. Improving welfare for Scotland’s homeless pets 47

      17. Equally Safe delivery plan 1:43

      18. Response to labour market statistics 1:19

      19. Launch of UK’d first LNG ferry 33

      20. Race Equality Action Plan 41

      21. Members’ Business: Bank Branch Closures in Scotland – 14 December 2017 54:44

      22. Global recognition for Scotland’s robotics expertise 1:14

      23. Tackling rough sleeping this winter 1:05

      24. Investment in Early Learning and Childcare 1:21

      25. National Chef appointed 1:19

      26. Benefits of Migration 1:24

      27. M8 Newhouse – Baillieston: Scotland’s newest motorway 2:04

      28. Join the bowel movement (30 second) 31

      29. UK Supreme Court approves minimum unit pricing 25

      30. Scotland’s Draft Budget 2018-19 1:55

      31. Investment in affordable housing 36

      32. Young Scot share Festive Message with First Minister 2:44

      33. Turning challenges into opportunities 49:13

      34. Jeane Freeman responds to Social Security stage one report – BSL translation 3:25

      35. Police training ahead of new domestic abuse law 47

      36. A revealing trip to the cinema 1:02

      37. Working as a Doctor in Scotland – NHS Education for Scotland 5:09

      38. Scottish Government – Child Flu – 2017 (via NHS Health Scotland) 21

      39. How the SNP protects our NHS in Scotland 1:34

      40. Our vision for public ownership in Scotland 1:17

      41. £5m more to support NHS winter plans 42

      42. £6.3m for Scottish Ambulance Service 1:19

      43. You & Flu 2017 5:56

      44. Ambulance Scotland promo 1:14

      45. National Manufacturing Institute for Scotland 47

      46. Youth Arts Scotland – Ross’s Story 4:05

      47. Over £2 Million for third sector 3:08

      48. New jobs at film and TV company 1:33

      49. Prestigious film and TV school to open in Scotland 1:21

      50. Childcare recruitment campaign begins 1:03

      51. Hate has no home in Scotland 1:35

      52. School reforms progress 1:33

      53. Scotland. Brilliantly connected for the tech industry. 1:08

      54. NHS in winter 31

      55. Yes2Hub 31

      56. Businesses voice Brexit fears 1:19

      57. Scottish Festivals – Scotland.org 4:54

      58. Diet & Obesity Consultation: Three Chiefs 43

      59. ‘5urvive-a-side’ Dannys lung cancer recovery story 1:14

      60. Scotland’s Place in Europe 1:41

      61. Human Rights in Scotland 2:56

      62. Experimenting with blockchain technology | Registers of Scotland 1:06

      http://www.trulyscottishtv.com/channel-2—scots-govt-channel.html

    222. Ghillie says:

      Thepnr @ 11.56 pm

      Theresa May must have been spitting feathers when she read that letter from Nicola Sturgeon =)

      Worth a read folks!

      Excellent post Thepnr 🙂

    223. Breeks says:

      I don’t agree with everything Gerry Hassan says in his Bella article, but he says a lot that does resonate with me.

      But whether you are frustrated or exasperated with the SNP strategy, or one of the softly, softly, catchee monkey school of thought, dare I suggest we may find common purpose in recognising an air of pregnant expectation that “something” has to happen, and soon.

      I myself don’t buy the SNP strategy. Even political anoraks for and against us are scratching their heads wondering what the plan is, and this Zen-like path towards the spiritual enlightenment of Independence is thoroughly unfulfilling and unconvincing. Your average Joe in the street is left mulling over their own private theories about how best to further the reality of Independence. That grassroots aspiration sooner or later needs channelled into forward momentum and something much more cohesive than a do-it-yourself individualist campaign strategy we seem to have at present.

      “Ach! Hold on!”, they say, Nicola has to govern for Yes voters and No voters alike! Well if I accept that argument that Scotland’s First Minister has to be professionally ambivalent about Independence, then for the love of God, delegate the job of securing independence to somebody else who is free of all such prohibitive constraints. Strikes me the magnanimous UK Government isn’t losing much sleep about respecting my aspirations for independence.

      Brexit has been a disaster for the UK. It has made the UK an international laughing stock and revealed the UK’s toxic domestic propensity towards xenophobia and self serving base instincts. The Tories in government are a political freak show that is beyond parody; clowns, liars and deviants robbing the poor to feed the rich in the free-for-all moral desert of NeoLiberalism. Labour, thankfully, seem paralysed by their own paranoia that another dirty little secret of their epic past duplicity, warmongering, and criminal history is going to break the surface any moment.

      The BBC is regularly trolling the lot of us, so confident in its omnipotence that it can taunt us with absolute impunity, laugh at our complaints and grievances as it alters history, air brushes away the obscene failures and betrayals of Unionist Government while smearing and belittling the tremendously stoic achievements of our own SNP government.

      Yes, the enemies of Scottish Independence are powerful, devious, and will not be easy to overcome, but they are also immoral, deplorable, dishonest, disingenuous, discriminatory, deceitful, and fundamentally crooked. The evil caricatures from literary fiction from Scrooge to Shylock, the Ice Queen of Narnia and the nine Nazgul wraiths of Mordor could all walk into Downing Street with very real expectations of getting a cabinet post in Teresa May’s Government, yet they still wouldn’t oust Boris Pennywise Johnson.

      And yet, and yet, and yet, somehow forward momentum eludes us. We celebrate a clever comment or favourable nuance which somehow gets heard above the cacophony of Unionist derision. We think it’s terrific that a Part Political Broadcast is controversial because it pokes fun at a Unionist gargoyle. We progress by minuscule, glacial increments when by rights we should be charging ahead full throttle.

      For all it’s ubiquity, it feels like it isn’t the grotesque flakiness of Unionism which holds us in check, but our own doubts and fearful indecision.

      I still have problems reconciling how Scotland voted decisively to remain in Europe in 2016, a clear, decisive, sovereign, democratic, indisputable mandate and majority upon which to oppose and contest Brexit and test the Union to its destruction, but the opportunity has been passed over in favour of some insipid and lukewarm economic salvation through maintaining access to the Single Market. For the love of God, Scotland’s Brexit Remain vote got a standing ovation in the European Parliament. They knew what it meant! But why didn’t we? No. We decide our sovereignty is too complicated and controversial, and absolute (winning) conditions are unhelpful compared to progress through negotiation and compromise…. sigh!

      As for May’s General Election, it still hasn’t officially been recognised for the devious, dark monied malevolent coup attempt to unseat the SNP that it was, but the UK media will ensure that dirty secret never sees the light of day. May and Davidson failed in their blackhearted attempt. They overtook Labour, claimed some treasured scalps, but ultimately failed to deliver a knockout punch even when the SNP wasn’t looking and didn’t see it coming.

      Neverthess, despite the sinister dark money factor, despite the toe curling sycophancy of Davidson and May in the woods, despite the grotesque exposure of OO sectarian bigots, perverts and sociopaths in the Scottish Tories “Dreamteam”, the Tories have nevertheless made much more use of their 13 illgotten gains than the SNP managed to make with their 56 seat landslide. That stings the pride I know, but it’s true.

      Don’t get me wrong. I want victory and independence, and whatever prejudices you have, that means the SNP have to succeed, but for goodness sake SNP, throw your supporters a bone every now and again. You’ve not lost the poker game yet, but my own confidence in you took a big bodyblow when you threw away a bloody good hand of four sovereign aces back in 2016.

      Granted your hand wasn’t quite so good in May’s 2017 GE, but it was still good enough if you’d just had the confidence. If you hadn’t folded, you’d still have beaten the Tory pair.

      This is all getting deadly serious now. Once Brexited, Scotland will suffer economic catastrophe, we will lose European allies in our struggle, and we will stand alone against the UK’s BritNat fascism as it dismantles our capacity for independent thought and action.

      Don’t keep telling me you can win. The time has come for you to show me.

    224. Morgatron says:

      Just noticed that BBC Scotland online front page paper review starts with the most three rightwing rags all screaming the same headline “Sturgeon Snubs The Royals” by not flying the butchers apron on old lizs birthday. Well , that running order of the papers headlines is somewhat bizarre.

    225. Ken500 says:

      Just vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independrnce. Vote for EU membership. Just get out and vote and take someone with you, The power is in the electorate hands, Use it or lose it.

    226. Socrates MacSporran says:

      A lot of what Breeks wrote in his mini-rant at .59am resonated with me. Like him, I get frustrated at some parts of the SNP’s tactics – for instance, I wish, just once, at FMQs, Nicola would answer one of Colonel Yadaftie’s questions with: “Away an’ bile yer heid – that wis so daft, it isn’t worthy of a response,” then sit down.

      But, I digress. I console myself at the SNP’s apparent failure to be pro-active with the thought: Good idea, never interrupt your enemy while they are making a mistake – and the Maybot and her gang are making plenty.

    227. Dorothy Devine says:

      Have to agree with the ‘bite back’ sentiment- too nice to these interviewers.

      A more Mike Russell approach appeals . Does anyone remember him telling Brewer that grammatically correct English should be seen and heard in schools , newspapers and the BBBC if children were to learn and that all of these so called educators were letting them down?

      It was a wee cracker! You could almost see Brewer mentally re- running his part in the interview.

    228. Ken500 says:

      Bella Caledonia is irrelevant joke, An echo chamber, They would cause trouble in an empty room. They are everything they accuse others of being, The Emperor with no clothes. They would cost Scotland Independence,

    229. Kangaroo says:

      Gregor @ 9:12
      Not many are watching across the pond. However as you have alluded to, this will shake up the planet and will reverberate in the UK too. It may be the clincher for indyref2.

      Nobody is watching because they are too busy with indref2

    230. Black Joan says:

      Hamish @12.17. It seems that Tank Girl is hiding among her friends at Davos.

      Her first invitation, according to a proud Britnat on Radio Shortbread. “Everyone very excited” to hear what she will say.

    231. Nana says:

      oh and there’s some fake news about a flag. Perhaps big Theresa’s new fake news department could deal with that one.

    232. Tatu3 says:

      I very much agree with what breeks said at 6.59. Especially the following paragraph –

      “I still have problems reconciling how Scotland voted decisively to remain in Europe in 2016, a clear, decisive, sovereign, democratic, indisputable mandate and majority upon which to oppose and contest Brexit and test the Union to its destruction, but the opportunity has been passed over in favour of some insipid and lukewarm economic salvation through maintaining access to the Single Market. For the love of God, Scotland’s Brexit Remain vote got a standing ovation in the European Parliament. They knew what it meant! But why didn’t we? No. We decide our sovereignty is too complicated and controversial, and absolute (winning) conditions are unhelpful compared to progress through negotiation and compromise…. sigh!”

    233. Arabs for Independence says:

      Thanks Nana – plenty of reading for my travels today.

    234. One_Scot says:

      According Nicola the Yoon media are broadcasting out right lies saying Nicola has banned the union jack from Government buildings.

      This is the reality of what we are up against, the TV News channels, papers and radio are corrupt to the core against Scotland and the SNP. People in Scotland need to stop believing their lies, and question every negative story they produce regarding the SNP and Scotland.

      We really do need to win Scotland’s Independence soon as they will never stop and only get worse.

    235. Macart says:

      Breakfast reading sorted.

      Many thanks Nana. 🙂

    236. Les Wilson says:

      In ref to Indy, I think this guy is on the money, and we should at least seriously consider what he is saying, the evidence is mounting. Please watch it all the way through and think through what will happen if remotely correct.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QVCotC2stw

    237. Dr Jim says:

      Folk wondering when Unionists are going to start changing their minds about Independence for Scotland are going to be waiting an awfy long time, they’re not going to do it, they don’t care what happens to Scotland, they’re not interested in Scotlands future and they positvely despise those of us who do care

      There’s a huge sectarian and racist problem within Scotland that sees it’s loyalty to some mythical English crown in a belief that it’s identity is being removed, not it’s religion because they don’t really care about that, most Unionists in this category would never see the inside of a church unless it was for a wedding or a funeral, no, it’s more to do with their imagined perceptions as better people than the rest of the population whether white black brown or any other colour and the notion that the English crown protects their superiority and that those of us lesser mortals who are not them must never gain equality

      Governmental policies wars plague pestilence or hell freezing over mean nothing to these people they are immovable in their position so attempting to persuade cajole or convince them differently is pointless

      There are however people in the middle of all this, the traditional non voter or sometime lazy voter who (stays oot o politics) for a number of reasons, apathy, avoidance of decision making, or just plain simple “I don’t know” folk who are generally those folk who don’t want to upset their family or friends by even mentioning the horrible subject of politics of which their particular peer group may be opposed, and that group comprises people from all groups of society and tend not to be rigid in their loyalties to anything, they’re just normal folk going through their life hoping to avoid upsets from and by anybody, so I believe in order to win Independence we have to find a way to convince the non or lazy voter to get involved and vote and if we can do that I think we win

      Unionists have all the advantages of Press, TV, and of course the entire British state on their side but they do have a giant weakness and it’s their own unbending rigidity, expose their lack of reason, inability to compromise and inflexibility then the middle non voting people who dislike getting involved will oppose that very behaviour

      I hope?

    238. Nana says:

      So very sick of this carry on, our First minister has to take to twitter to refute the lies promoted by the unionist media

      https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/956073718928887808

      https://twitter.com/GAPonsonby/status/956082147160453121

    239. Craig P says:

      TheBuchanLoony says:

      23 January, 2018 at 11:02 am

      I wonder what the result would have been if the McCrone report had been known to the people of Scotland? 

      —————-
      I wonder what the result in *2014* would have been if the McCrone report was known to the people! It was an open secret amongst Indy supporters but I never met a unionist who claimed to have heard of it. Biggest own goal of the campaign was not to publicise it more.

    240. colin alexander says:

      Nicola is working by the ethos: “Never interrupt your enemy while they are making a mistake”

      Really? The SNP never shut up about Hard Brexit being a disaster and campaigning for Soft Brexit, even though Scotland voted Remain.

      And as Scotland voted Remain and I read here that the Scot Parliament can stop Brexit altogether by withholding an LCM, then why all the efforts by the SNP at WM begging Mr Corbyn to back Soft Brexit?

      I’m told because of a Constitutional Convention. Anyone back this up with case law?

    241. Stravaiger says:

      Kind of off-topic, but kind of on-topic-

      Brexit means the UK leaving the EU, but it also seems to mean that my EU citizenship is being stripped from me against my will. Is this actually legal under international law? It’s something I’ve never seen addressed in the media.

    242. colin alexander says:

      Robert J Sutherland:

      The Miller case already ruled the Sewell CONVENTION is just that, a convention, it is NOT LAW, so cannot be legally enforced.

      ANY political Conventions are not constitutional law, they are merely procedures that end when people stop following the convention.

      Even if it were law, WM can repeal that, if it wanted to. It would take time and add to the legislative burden, but if the will is there, they could do it.

    243. colin alexander says:

      Why do people persist with this rubbish about Nicola Sturgeon is FM for all, so that means the SNP can’t try to implement the manifesto mandate by which her party were elected?

      Look up the Ministerial Code. Ministers aren’t allowed to use ministerial resources for party political purposes.

    244. Les Wilson says:

      colin alexander says:

      Give us a break will you. Your colours are seen and well known.

    245. Ken500 says:

      More Press/BBC lies. The non Dom tax evading Press. £3,7Billion for a load of nonsense. Westminster controlled, They should hang their heads in shame, responsible for death and destruction the world over. The Tories unionists are a disgrace.

      Murdoch sells up to Disney. Mickey Mouse news. If only it was a cartoon. Instead of looney tunes. A joke.

    246. Gerry Hasan sounds like our resident numpty and some others on here that write anti snp and anti Nicola pish,

      wish they would f#ck of to Bella or writing letters for the green ink gang.

      i`m sure they are controlled by same organization.

    247. Les Wilson says:

      We are all fed up with UKOK fabricated lies, what now, when Westminster has put in a team to establish what is and isn’t fake news. You could not make it up.

      If this was really true, then Westminster would need to close down along with all the media. Please be true!

      It is fairyland, another arm for their propaganda team tis all.

    248. wull2 says:

      Why does the SNP’s people not ask NS live on TV some of the lies put out by the media.

      This would expose the medias lies, and don’t just answer the same half truths each week.

    249. Bob Mack says:

      Let me make one point. At the Gina Miller trial the Court was faced with a dilemma. They had submissions from Ms Millers representatives,from the Welsh and scottish governments and other interested parties.

      Interestingly enough in their verdict they held that the will of the population was expressed in Parliament . That in essence was their judgement. Remember that they had been asked to rule that using royal Perogative was illegal in this case.

      The problem they had was that Mr Wolfe indirectly reminded them that no Royal Perogative could exist in Scotland . We all know why.

      Therefore the only judgement they could come up with,without breaking the union was to say that Scottish MP’s expressed the will of the people of Scotland and did so in Parliament.

      The government then changed tack and introduced Henry8 laws which allows them to change existing law without parliamentary approval.

      This has not yet been challenged by Scotland, as Henry 8 laws predated the Union and I cannot recall them ever having been accepted as Scottish Law. . This is not finished by a long way.

    250. Ken500 says:

      Johanna Cherry telt Davis again. David Davis lies called out. SKy resorts to rubbish. Davis left with red faced bare lies.

    251. heedtracker says:

      Give us a break will you. Your colours are seen and well known.

      He’s only mimicking the UK media in Scotland, trying to suck the life out of Scotland. No one ever said it was going to be easy, shaking off our chums in the south:D

      eg.

      “Lochhead herself, ironically, found herself defending Burns during his 250th anniversary festivities in 2009, when she responded to charges that he was “a racist, misogynist drunk” – and hence no role model for Scots – by calling such arguments “complete rubbish.”

      That’s stinky old The Graun, Scotland region this week, smearing their UKOK shite all over their Scotland, as per.

    252. heedtracker says:

      And so another UKOK tory day at the trough farts along for Scotland. Why proud Scotbuts thought these chancers are better running Scotland than anyone else,

      http://archive.is/pwLJZ

      “Channel 4 is planning to push ahead with the broadcast of a controversial documentary next week alleging that three former Conservative ministers were willing to sell their services as advisers to a fake Chinese business set up by the broadcaster.”

    253. Fred says:

      “The man had a heart-attack, these things happen sometimes!”
      Dr Harold Shipman!

    254. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Well, well, well. The PISA ‘global competences’ test (assessing children on how much they respect other cultures etc (FFS)) will go ahead in Scotland.

      You all mocked and hissed at the news that the Westminster government was to set up a fake news unit, yet not a chirp about how our own government has decided to test children on their ability to spot fake news.

      My God, this place is a sham.

    255. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Ken 500 @ 9.08am

      One wee point Ken, Loony Toons was Warner Bros. not Disney. But, in the gnral context of your post, it Disney matter!!

    256. Bob Mack says:

      @Reluctant Nationalist,

      You sound as if you do not have a clue as to what PISA actually does. It is not an assessment as such. It is an exploration of possibilities in interaction and communication.

      It teaches acceptance,inclusion and an open view if the world.

      Not all Chinese own take aways or not all of Pakistani origin own shops. It helps explore stereotypes and develop positive views. Of course you may see that as a negative.

      I remember when all Scottish kids had to undergo iq tests. Did me no harm.

    257. Derick fae Yell says:

      Breeks 6:59

      “…the opportunity has been passed over in favour of some insipid and lukewarm economic salvation through maintaining access to the Single Market.”

      I’m not clear what the opportunity was there? A snap referendum on a prospectus of ‘staying’ in the EU, which is not a realistic option and would have fallen apart during the campaign, again.

      IMHO the SNP is doing exactly what needs to be done, at the time it can be done.

      Nicola has been absolutely consistent that the decision on a referendum or not will be made when the terms of Brexit are known. By the time we have a referendum, the EU will no longer be a divisive issue for Yessers. That’s a positive.

      The update of Scotland’s Place in Europe is a piece of the groundwork. Everyone should read, and understand, it. The First Minister’s focus on the benefits of free movement is particularly welcome.

      The forthcoming Growth Commission will be another part, hopefully dealing with currency and the supposed ‘deficit’

      All the while the freak show in Westminster is doing our work for us.

      Consider this. The step from Scotland in the UK in the Single Market, to Independent Scotland in the single market, is a very small one, almost completely de-risked. She knows what she’s doing.

      Very early in the Wee Blue Book the point was made that Scotland is a nation, and therefore should be independent. That still stands, and the fewer distractions we have the better

      PS The papers are a disgrace this morning. Amplified of course by good old BBC Pravda.

      Good to see the First Minister getting stuck into the lies. Twitter thread re Iain Dunt particularly amusing

    258. Lenny Hartley says:

      Breeks @ 06:59 very well said. Echoes my thoughts exactly although put far more eloquently than I could dream.

    259. Dan Huil says:

      I’m happy to see the rabid Britnat media being “outraged” at the Scottish government’s flag-flying “policy”. It pushes people in Scotland, especially those less than interested in politics, to think about their true feelings concerning our heritage and future.

      Time is coming for all individuals in Scotland to nail their colours to the mast.

      If Britnats in Scotland want to wave the butcher’s apron then fair enough – we can all see where they stand and they can see where we stand.

      This is just the start.

    260. ScotsRenewables says:

      Off topic:

      I’ve got someone on a FB group I belong to wittering on slagging the SNP and supporting the current Gerry Hassan article on Bella. They are saying that giving ones’ list vote to the SNP resulted in tories getting seats at Holyrood in 2016.

      I remember Stu doing a detailed article showing this was pish, but I can’t find it. Can anyone give me a link?

    261. jfngw says:

      From the BBC definition of fake news on its gov fake news story page.

      ‘Information, photos or videos manipulated to deceive – or old photographs shared as new’

      In Scotland this week we’ve had an old Oxfam report and a pathetic flag story (2010 change) broadcast as new news on the BBC. I think I’m going to need a spreadsheet to keep tabs on this.

      Meanwhile Ms Dugdale is livid that the SNP has done nothing to stop storm Georgina, she does come across as very childlike (trying to be polite).

    262. ronnie anderson says:

      Cmon Wingers the Usual Suspects are up to their usual nonsense , body swerves are the order of the day , please exercise self control .

      Bob Mack the only Pisa that clown knows about is Domino’s lol .

    263. mr thms says:

      Just released today

      https://news.gov.scot/news/international-exports-still-on-the-rise

      Scotland’s international exports (excluding oil and gas) increased by £460 million to £29.8 billion in 2016.

      Why is it ‘excluding oil and gas’?

      Allow me to fixed it..

      This quote is from Oil and Gas UK’s Economic Report 2017

      http://oilandgasuk.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Economic-Report-2017-Oil-Gas-UK.pdf

      “Last year, oil and gas provided 76 per cent of the UK’s primary energy, 60 per cent of which was satisfied from indigenous production making an estimated contribution of £17 billion to the UK’s balance of trade.”

    264. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      O/T

      It rather looks like Ruth Davidson’s emigration down south has been delayed. Is this because (a)they have realised she’s not actually up to it and the result only of entirely generous continuous promotion or (b) they’ve had a look at the Tory front bench at Holyrood and realise they have nobody else they can use?
      It’s pity as I had written a wee poem to send her on her way

      Fair fa’ your smirkin’, puddin’ face,
      Great chieftain o’ the nawbag race!
      O’ self awareness n’er a trace,
      But whaur tae bluff in?
      The Bake Off surely is your place
      Pie, bridie – muffin

      Oor journal’s pictures there ye fill,
      Wi’ hurdies like a distant hill,
      Astride a coo does nae instil
      In times o’ need,
      A sicht o’ conduct sensible
      Yer aff yer heid.

      Atween the thighs thon mighty gun
      Suggesting less than wholesome fun
      Or mibbes, worse, respect undone
      To ribald laughter
      Away ye go tae fine London
      It’s what ye’re efter

    265. Bob Mack says:

      The media are trying to incite the same trouble that occurred in Belfast in 2012 when the ruling body removed the Union Rag from council buildings. This led to riots from the Unionist populace.

      The Lion Rampant and any other flag are flown to protocols agreed with the Queen. It is not arbitrary. The media know this,but still try to make it some sort of insurrection move.

      If it is, then it must be orchestrated by Elizabeth 2.

    266. mike cassidy says:

      Info on those PISA tests here.

      http://archive.is/czAZR

    267. Bob Mack says:

      @Mr Thms,

      Your post has just answered one of the great mysteries of our time. I could not understand why revenues from oil were so low. Now I do. Instead of looking at export figures I should have been looking right here in the UK,

      We are not seeing the true value of oil and gas in the UK accounts because it is being sold here in the UK direct to energy suppliers,and consequenty revenues will be recorded under headings such as VAT and also company tax from energy suppliers rather than oil production companies. It is not being exported at all in any great volume. Good way to get round recording it as oil and gas revenues in the accounts.

      The fact that it is worth £17 billion to the UK economy speaks volumes

    268. colin alexander says:

      Bob Mack said:

      “The problem they had was that Mr Wolfe indirectly reminded them that no Royal Perogative could exist in Scotland . We all know why.

      Therefore the only judgement they could come up with, without breaking the union was to say that Scottish MP’s expressed the will of the people of Scotland and did so in Parliament.”

      Please Bob, can you provide the evidence for your assertions? I skim read the ruling and can’t find a part that says that. For your convenience, here is the Miller ruling:

      https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2016-0196-judgment.pdf

      I know what it did say was: “[T]he residual prerogative is now confined to such matters as summoning and dissolving Parliament, declaring war and peace, regulating the armed forces in some respects, governing certain colonial territories, making treaties (though as such they cannot affect the rights of subjects), and conferring honours. The one drastic internal power of an administrative kind is the power to intern enemy aliens in time of war.”

      It does say at 41. “.. Royal prerogative, were progressively reduced as
      Parliamentary democracy and the rule of law developed… a series of statutes enacted in the twenty years between 1688 and 1707 were of particular legal importance. Those statutes were the Bill of Rights 1688/9 and the Act of Settlement 1701 in England and Wales, the Claim of Right Act 1689 in Scotland, and the Acts of Union 1706 and 1707 in England and Wales and in Scotland respectively. (Northern Ireland joined the United Kingdom pursuant to the Acts of Union 1800 in Britain and
      Ireland.”

      ( A statute is an act of parliament).

      It also said:

      150. The Lord Advocate and the Counsel General for Wales were correct to
      acknowledge that the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly did not have a
      legal veto on the United Kingdom’s withdrawal from the European Union. Nor in
      our view has the Northern Ireland Assembly. Therefore, our answer to the second
      question in para 126 above is that the consent of the Northern Ireland Assembly is
      not a legal requirement before the relevant Act of the UK Parliament is passed.
      151. In reaching this conclusion we do not underestimate the importance of
      constitutional conventions, some of which play a fundamental role in the operation
      of our constitution. The Sewel Convention has an important role in facilitating
      harmonious relationships between the UK Parliament and the devolved legislatures.
      But the policing of its scope and the manner of its operation does not lie within the constitutional remit of the judiciary, which is to protect the rule of law.”

      ““[A] fundamental difference between the legal, that is the statutory and common law rules of the constitution, and the conventional rules is that, while a breach of the legal rules, whether of statutory or common law nature, has a legal
      consequence in that it will be restrained by the courts, no such sanction exists for breach or non-observance of the conventional rules. The observance of constitutional conventions depends upon the acceptance of the obligation of
      conformance by the actors deemed to be bound thereby. When this consideration is insufficient to compel observance no court may enforce the convention by legal action. The sanction for non-observance of a convention is political in that disregard of a convention may lead to political defeat, to loss of office, or to
      other political consequences, but will not engage the attention of the courts which are limited to matters of law alone. Courts, however, may recognise the existence of conventions …”

      So, as I understand it, the Scottish element of the case was based on political convention, especially the Sewel convention.

      The court ruled conventions aren’t law. They were statements of intent, not statutes, so the courts cannot enforce them.

      ————————————————–

      As an aside, I suspect the part of the Scotland Act 2016 where it talks about the permanence of the Scottish Parliament ( because of the wording) may also be a statement of intent, not a legally enforceable guarantee.

    269. Bob Mack says:

      A lot of words Colin, but where does it say the Queen or any Royal past or future has sovereignty over the Scottish people?

      Simple question really and certainly within the judges power if they so chose.

      Remember this case was about the use of Sovereign power to pass Brexit legislation. Over to you.

    270. HandandShrimp says:

      I see the BBC “fact check” rather begrudgingly confirms that Nicola is right and the journalists are wrong re the flag thing.

      Cold porridge in the thrapple springs to mind 🙂

    271. sassenach says:

      Bob Mack said ” Over to you. “.

      Please, please don’t further encourage Coco.

    272. colin alexander says:

      HandandShrimp says:
      23 January, 2018 at 11:09 pm

      “…the Herald…I see it has completed its transformation into a parody of the Daily Mail”.

      You’re right. Except, the DM is better for Royal stories, so should be more popular with the SNP, who wanted to impose an unelected monarch on indy Scotland without prior consent from the sovereign people of Scotland.

    273. Right on Cue

      BBC website Increase in Scottish exports

      BUT

      BUT

      Sales to the rest of itself (U.K.) down

      Well by f/k we are really getting into fantasy land now.

      Dundee sells less to Hull SNP to blame

      Edinburgh sells less to Cardiff again SNPs fault

      It would be interesting to see who has the time to untangle this particular supply chain ,and at the end of the day who really gives a monkeys , how does this advance the quest for human advancement and alleviate suffering of people under this Tory government

      Truly baffling the BBC in Scotland , what kind of brainless morons inhabit that place .

    274. sassenach says:

      See what I mean!!!

    275. Dan Huil says:

      Glad I don’t pay the bbc tax.

    276. Bob Mack says:

      @Sass each,

      My apologies but sometimes you have to sweep up rubbish.

    277. One_Scot says:

      Clearly the unionist media are at the not giving a ‘F’ stage as shown by their wide spread lies regarding todays union jack story.

      Hopefully as more and more people realise that they are being lied to by the Scottish and UK TV News programmes, papers and radio about the SNP, they will come to see that the only way for Scotland to operate as a normal society is through being Independent.

    278. The Dog Philosopher says:

      I was thinking about the phrase that Hearts boss Craig Levein used to describe his team’s win over Hibs – how it ‘restored the natural order of things’. It occurred to me that glib phrases such as ‘the natural order of things’ perfectly describe the kind of brainwashing trick that we see and hear being pumped out by every Brit media mouthpiece on a daily basis.

      ‘The Natural Order of Things’ is there when we see British cabinet ministers strolling along Downing Street, or sitting at high-powered meetings with other world leaders, the Union Jack draped behind. ‘The Natural Order of Things’ is there at major sporting events when the inclusive ‘We’ means that we’re supposed to get all excited by a lavish event broadcast from London, with athletes waving triumphant Union Jacks. Or when we switch on the box to find an England football match dominating the schedule.

      ‘The Natural Order of Things’ is there whenever someone in the Royal family wanders in front of a camera, usually for ‘good British causes’, or when more Royal children are due to be supported, or begin their private educations. ‘The Natural Order of Things’ is there whenever the media begin to reminisce about the good old days when Blighty defeated Jerry almost single-handedly: cue lots of Union Jacks and films about Winston Churchill.

      All this, and more, becomes the way things are because it is The Natural Order of Things’.

      Which usually means that Scotland remains nothing more than an afterthought.

    279. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      colin alexander at 11.41

      Scraping the barrel now, Fergus or whatever. Nobody sensible cares about this issue at the moment.

    280. Macart says:

      Journos moaning about lack of respect and trust be aware. You kinda have to earn those things.

    281. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Bob Mack, at what point did I give the impression that I did not understand it? Nobody thinks chinks or pakis solely do those things. And the IQ test analogy is hardly apt.

      From the OECD PISA page:

      “Learning to participate in interconnected, complex and diverse societies is no longer a luxury but a pressing necessity…PISA has developed a framework to explain, foster and ASSESS adolescents’ global competence.”

      Not that I particularly give a fuck about whether a ‘failure’ of the assessment is somehow a barrier to progress; it’s the very existence of this programme as a method of indoctrinating the young. And after so much misery and failure in making European countries ‘diverse’, I’m gobsmacked that this kind of crap is still going on. Doubling down, in fact.
      It was over seven years ago that Merkel said, “And of course the approach to build a multicultural society and live side-by-side and to enjoy each other has failed, utterly failed.”

      But most crucially of all, and my original point about folk in BTL having an eppy about the government fake news unit but nothing to say about this, is that PISA is not entirely different. Kids are going to be taught fake news is what they are TOLD is fake news. You can go on about how they are merely being ‘given the tools’ to navigate the bullshitscape (which is true to an extent), but the examples they will be given will be from particular sources (I bet none from the BBC or Guardian), about particular subjects and they will have that imprinted on their minds. They’re basically being taught how to be politically correct.
      “…young people are easily fooled by partisan, biased or fake news. In this context, cultivating students’ global competence can help them capitalise on digital spaces, better understand the world they live in, and responsibly express their voice online.”

      ‘Preparing our youth for an inclusive and sustainable world’

      Brainwashing them.

      Ach, fuck it. What’s the use in objecting. We’ll all take our medicine cos it’s good for us. It’s good for us. It’s good for us. It’s good for us. It’s good for us. It’s good for us. It’s good for us…

    282. Breeks says:

      Derick fae Yell says:
      24 January, 2018 at 10:29 am
      Breeks 6:59

      “…I’m not clear what the opportunity was there? A snap referendum on a prospectus of ‘staying’ in the EU, which is not a realistic option and would have fallen apart during the campaign, again.”

      No. What further referendum did we need? The “opportunity” was a binary, black and white constitutional impasse, where the sovereign democratic will of Scotland was diametrically opposite to the professed sovereign will of Westminster.

      We had the Sovereignty box ticked, we had the democracy box ticked, we had the irreconcilable differences box ticked, we had mandate and majority boxes ticked, and we had the “issue of National importance” box ticked. – The perfect sunny day and planetary alignment for Scotland, the perfect storm for Westminster! We had Westminster over a Constitutional barrel, but then we let them off the hook by giving them a solution to their insoluble problem – Scotland, at the behest of Holyrood, would not invoke the Constitutional Sovereignty of its people. We would set aside the sovereign will of the people and through Holyrood, defer to Westminster’s Parliamentary Sovereignty. THAT was the missed opportunity, and in my opinion, it cost us dear.

      We could by now have found ourselves standing on solid Constitutionally sovereign ground, with Westminster begging us to hold another referendum hoping forlornly to pull the Union out of the fire.

      With Sovereignty recognised, we could have removed the BBC’s toxin from our bloodstream and have our own broadcasting network communicating unadultered news and debate.

      Instead of month after month waiting in the wings while Westminster makes a complete Horlicks of Brexit, we could have been two years into the Independence debate polarised between two absolute and irreconcilable Constitutional arguments, but where the international rule of law recognised the primacy and ascendancy of Scots Law and Constitution over the later and fundamentally incompetent fudge of the UK Constitution, ultimately supporting our arguments and compromised theirs.

      Even at worse, where Sovereignty had remained an ongoing dispute in a Constitutional Court, at least contesting the issue in 2016 might have allowed the EU a degree of latitude to recognise Scotland as a potentially sovereign Interlocutor, and accordingly, Scotland might then have been able to shadow the UK’s Brexit negotiations with Scotland’s own probationary sovereign negotiations and binding agenda. England’s Brexit would have no bearing upon Scotland’s place in Europe, and Scotland’s resources would not find themselves as negotiable assets at the mercy of Westminster.

      In 2016, we could have made ourselves a Sovereign Independent Nation in every aspect except the final tissue of token technical credibility left to the Union, but primed to receive its coup de grace via a ratification plebiscite. No further mandate, majority, or democratic referendum required. We had all we needed.

      Now if the SNP had a better plan in 2016, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to articulate what that plan is. Waiting to see the final Brexit deal, particularly when we might otherwise have secured our own Scottish anti-Brexit Deal, doesn’t exactly deliver much in the way of Constitutional emancipation.

      I am greatly uneased that Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty is still considered an issue of lesser significance beneath the trading arrangements of an international trade agreement. That as far as I’m concerned is not what Independence is about.

      I believe we missed a vitally important fork in the road when we stepped away from our sovereign constitutional rights in 2016, but what is done is done. What happens next is for the SNP to decide, but blind loyalty in the “we know best” doctrine is a little threadbare frankly.

    283. Robert Louis says:

      Happy fake Scottish news Wednesday, everybody. 🙂

    284. Bob Mack says:

      @ Reluctant Nationalist.

      “Indoctrination of the young”!!!!!

      Well bud all I can say is that we are posting on a site whose author has time and time again showed us that we have been indoctrinated for years, and he helps us break that cycle. That is his mission statement

      If it works for me at this age, why are the young so problematic to you?

    285. heedtracker says:

      Robert Louis says:
      24 January, 2018 at 12:09 pm
      Happy fake Scottish news Wednesday, everybody.

      That Heil frontpage really sticks out on the newsstands here in Glasgow. Bloody hell its huge. 2 more years of this tory yoonrage, should have interesting election results. We all took selfies with the newsstand too and ofcourse, and put the National on top.

    286. colin alexander says:

      Bob Mack

      Aye the case was about the attempted use of Royal Prerogative to leave the EU. And the Court ruled that Royal Prerogative was limited. The Court did not say it does not exist. The court did not say it did not apply to Scotland.

      Membership of the EU came about via statue, an act of the UK parliament. To leave the EU also required the consent of UK parliament via another act of parliament. The Govt could not use (the limited) Royal Prerogative in such circumstances.

      I can understand why you inferred what you did. So, I’m no having a dig at you, but instead trying to discuss what the Court did specifically rule.

      (Anyone is welcome to correct me if I’m wrong).

      However, as I read it, the case as it related to the intervention of the Lord Advocate for Scotland was all about political convention and in particular, the Sewel Convention.

      And the court ruled conventions are not law, so not a matter for the courts.

      The Court did not say Royal Prerogative does not apply to Scotland because of the Claim of Right, it did say Royal Prerogative is limited, due in part to the Claim of Right.

      It did not examine the Claim of Right issue in detail. It examined the Royal Prerogative from a UK perspective and said there is a Royal Prerogative, but it is limited to only a few specific circumstances due to statutes etc( including the Claim of Right) , and the court listed where Royal Prerogative remains in force.

      So, contrary to what you said, the Court said Royal Prerogative DOES EXIST in a UK context ( Scotland is part of the UK) but it’s limited.

      and in case anyone missed it:

      150. “The Lord Advocate and the Counsel General for Wales were correct to
      acknowledge that the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly did not have a legal veto on the United Kingdom’s withdrawal from the European Union”.

      So, people on here who believe the Scot Parl can veto Brexit by law are mistaken.

      The reality is that the much adored SP is a Mickey Mouse pretence of a Parliament. It is NOT sovereign. It is subordinate, because it is a branch office of UK Westminster power over Scotland.

    287. @Breeks,

      constantly day after frickin day takin over the main topic,

      yer like a broken record and not a good broken record,

      get your own fricken blog and take numpty with you,

      “SNP missed the opportunity ,SNP missed the opportunity ,SNP missed the opportunity,SNP missed the opportunity,SNP missed the opportunity ……..

      i take it you noticed what happened in Catalonia,

      people like you are dangerous,

      leave tactics and strategy to SNP and Nicola.

    288. Bob Mack says:

      Colin you still cannot answer my point. Where did the judges say Royal Perogative is permissable in Scotland ? Where?

      If it does not say so it does not exist. That is the basis of all law.

      You have wasted enough of my time today with semantics. When you know the answer for sure then post. Otherwise you waste our ,and your own time.

    289. TheWasp says:

      You’re fairly battering the overtime in this week “Colin Alexander”, nothing much going on in Cheltenham just now?

    290. colin alexander says:

      Bob Mack

      But, it is an important point you raised and is related to Breeks’ argument too. So, credit to you. It begs the question: Where does Scotland’s sovereignty lie?

      The Claim of Act says by the people. That Claim of Act was made by the Scottish Parliament, the real ( undemocratic one of history) not the devolved one of modern times. It acted by parliamentary authority as the representatives of the sovereign people ( though in reality couldn’t give a toss what the ordinary people thought, only the rich and powerful mattered.)

      So, is Scotland’s people’s sovereignty represented by Scottish MPs or the whole UK Westminster parliament ( all UK MPs as a whole) or what? Is there a definitive answer? Or is it a question that has never received a legally binding answer?

      Clearly it’s NOT the SP, as the Lord Advocate acknowledged, by saying the SP cannot veto Brexit.

    291. wull2 says:

      I hope I did not see a blatant fake phone call on the politics show today.

      By the way I have no cense of humour on a show that meant to be serious, that’s my joke.

    292. starlaw says:

      BBC still blundering along with the fake flag story I could not make out if it were the Union Jack or the Scottish Royal Standard they were gobbing on about …. very childish report …not a clear message at all.

    293. Bob Mack says:

      Final word Colin. The people are Sovereign.

      If you want a project try finding any UK legislation that overides the Declaration of Arbroath. There is none. It clearly was an oversight when the Treaty of Union was created. I believe it was because they thought the Monarch of Scotland would carry the same weight as the Monarch in England, therefore never made any provision to nullify the Declaration.

      Assumptions and presumptions make an ass of you and I.

    294. Cactus says:

      This posting is about The National

      Okay, here’s another classic auld school idea to promote the above further.

      If The National ‘The Newspaper That Supports An Independent Scotland’ could do with even more exposure, in addition to being digital or purchased from the hidden shelves… we take just the COVER-PAGE to the streets.

      Remember them walkable front n back sandwich-boards (‘A’ boards) 🙂

      The National news FRONT cover ~ FRONT of board
      The National sports BACK cover ~ BACK of board

      Imagine walking past and seeing that on yer Style Mile, Glasgow.
      To the shops we go to buy one.

      This is from December ’09:
      http://visit-glasgow.info/shopping/the-golden-z/

      All it needs is available daytime volunteers to strut.

      The National, available from all good newsagents.

      Fly yer flag Scotland.

      X.

    295. heedtracker says:

      Heil frauds stick out on all Scots newsstands and BBC Scotland love them for it. Its quite an approach to take down an elected government anywhere, not just by beeb gimps ofcourse.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-42800521

    296. Cactus says:

      And a Merry Burns Eve to all of Scotland, cheers.

    297. yesindyref2 says:

      I see Wormtongue is at it again, first quoting the judgement quoting a previous condideration at 142, as though it is part of the last consideration at 151, then assuming it into the conclusion at 152 which is in fact about Northern Ireland and doesn’t mention Scotland. Nice dodge by the court.

      Then there’s this, rather than some punter’s “As an aside, I suspect …” here’s what the UKSC said itself:

      “149. In the Scotland Act 2016, the recognition of the Sewel Convention occurs alongside the provision in section 1 of that Act. That section, by inserting section 63A into the Scotland Act 1998, makes the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish government a permanent part of the United Kingdom’s constitutional arrangements, signifies the commitment of the UK Parliament and government to those devolved institutions, and declares that those institutions are not to be abolished except on the basis of a decision of the people of Scotland voting in a referendum. This context supports our view that the purpose of the legislative recognition of the convention was to entrench it as a convention”

      FUD – Fear Uncertainty Doubt.

    298. Effijy says:

      The Right Wing Rag, the Daily Broken Record, lists a comment by the latest Leader of Westminster Labour’s North Accounting Unit.

      It seems that he considers Nicola Sturgeon to be worse that Margaret Thatcher with all these cut backs????

      I suppose no surprise as there is no difference between Labour and Tory who always work together to ensure that Scotland’s wealth goes to England.

      What a shame no one in Labour or at the Record can remember Labour Abstaining when the Westminster Vote came up on round 2 of Tory Austerity cuts.

      I really think that the SNP should take out a full page in the record and explain how Paisley has more and better facilities now than they ever had and how Scotland’s NHS consistently out performs Tory and Labour NHS Services by a mile.

      I’d also advise their readers that the Record doesn’t do the truth.

    299. louis.b.argyll says:

      Think, are you encouraging trolls..?

      Are their moot points worth it..?

      Let em’ fizzle alone.

    300. heedtracker says:

      Fly yer flag Scotland.

      X.

      Its probably THE ultimate horror for everyone in Pacific Quay, a union jack free Scotland. Must be the most alien, unthinkable, unconscionable, unspeakable thing for all of them. And they hope and intend, everyone else here.

      Can’t wait to see the back of their UJ, me. Well they can have one on their English embassy and ofcourse the royals palaces too.

      Otherwise…cannae wait!

      The UK embassies are incredible palaces too around and all over the world. Think it costs £3-5bn a year.

      The one in Dublin’s nae bad really, modernist, bit like a fortress but they are on Facebook and normally, that crew of tories never mention their Scotland region to the Irish, natch. But they have linked this. No idea who Scotland org are either.

      https://www.scotland.org/events/burns-night

    301. yesindyref2 says:

      Got to reiterate what Thepnr said, read this:

      https://news.gov.scot/news/section-30-letter

      It’s the First Minister letter delivered to Prime Minister, after the vote in Holyrood back last year and guess what, absolutely nothing has changed since then.

      Remember Sturgeon did a “reset”? Here’s a definition

      reset: set again or differently

      set again” – as you were peeps.

    302. heedtracker says:

      Very Brexit odd, we’ve been stripped of our EU citizenship by our neighbour but they’re trying to get people to move to Scotland here,

      FROM SPAIN TO SCOTLAND, WHY DON’T YOU MAKE THE MOVE?

      https://www.talentscotland.com/

      via here,

      https://www.scotland.org/

      Its not like they’ve not had time to change all the UK immigration YES to freedom of movement ending. Cant see our neighbours giving that no no to immigrants Brexit baseline.

    303. yesindyref2 says:

      @louis.b.argyll
      The FUD goes like this:

      1. Sturgeon is useless
      2. The SNP are useless
      3. Holyrood is useless

      then moving on

      4. Holyrood is powerless
      5. Holyrood isn’t permanent
      6. Holyrood can be abolished any time May wants
      7. The Scots aren’t Sovereign

      and finally

      8. Shut up and eat your cereal

      Well, none of the above are true.

    304. Cactus says:

      I’ve got an MBE, I awarded to myself, I am a Member of the Burns Empire.

      “Weel done, Cutty-sark!
      And in an instant all was dark”

      “Excellent,” said Mr Burns.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpEtyVOU3dU

      Strike!

      X.

    305. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Poll from TSTV asking what we’d like as a new channel. Right now, ‘Scottish History’ way out in front on 75%.

      https://twitter.com/TrulyScottishtv/status/956148805379932161

    306. heedtracker says:

      I’ve got an MBE, I awarded to myself, I am a Member of the Burns Empire.

      It was sad to The Graun take a massive The Graun dump all over Scotland’s national poet today.

      If you’re ever in Ayr,

      http://www.burnsmuseum.org.uk/visit/getting-here/

      Maybe Burns was a rapist like what the English media gimps of the Graun tell us today but the museum has a tiny gold ring that he gave his wife on display. Its so small, with a little sliver of a ruby, its one of the most moving things you can still actually see of Rabbie Burns.

    307. orri says:

      Royal Prerogative does exist in Scotland.

      However,

      It’s use in devolved matters is also devolved.

      And,

      Advice on it’s use is in the hands of the First Minister.

      And,

      Refusal of Royal Assent is a Royal Prerogative.

      Which all adds up to the painful, to unionists, conclusion that in order for Westminster to pass measure and change laws in devolved matters that require Royal Assent then the First Minister and/or Holyrood has to agree or she will advise the Queen not to sign them.

      The Queen could always ignore said advice but that would probably cause a Constitutional Crisis.

      The other fly in the ointment is that unless Westminster can ensure that any changes the make are permanent there is nothing to prevent Holyrood instantly revoking them if not simply nullifying them before they come in to effect.

      However the reason Royal Prerogative was denied in the Brexit case was that it impacted on areas not covered by RP and the referendum was deliberately non binding on Westminster.

    308. yesindyref2 says:

      @orri
      Exactly. I’d really like to see that one tested, and I’ve a feeling Wolffe would too …

      still, main objective, no diversions, fun comes later!

    309. colin alexander says:

      I believe Rock’s argument is that the people of Scotland ARE NOT sovereign, and the proof offered is over 300 years of subjugation.

      I argued we are, but it’s never been enforced and upheld by the Scottish political class since 1707, including the SNP, and the common people always say: it’s up to the politicians.

      Even today we get this on WoS: “we can’t do anything unless it’s done by the SNP”. Miller proved otherwise.

      Yet, the SNP aren’t the sovereign people, not a sovereign govt, not the largest party of a sovereign parliament. They are a political party.

      Sovereignty? What about universal suffrage democracy and electoral mandate (modern political conventions that didn’t exist in the original Scottish Parliament).

      I suspect that UK courts wouldn’t want to touch this with a barge pole. If they could be forced to, they would find that the idea that the common people EVER had ANY sovereignty is not within UK constitution law.

      I suspect they would rule the Scottish and English Parliaments were sovereign. That the Scottish Parliament ( and English Parliament ) transferred their sovereignty to the UK parliament ( Commons and Lords). That’s it’s these as a whole that are sovereign.

      So, The Lords are sovereign but completely unelected and completely undemocratic. Completely against the modern conventions of democracy. Yet they ( with the Commons) are sovereign.

      International law that recognises the right of self-determination, that espouses democracy v the UK’s unwritten constitution where the Commons and Lords are sovereign but, and democracy is only a convention.

      That’s why the politicians avoid the issue of what is the legal situation: none of the politicians want to admit, that democracy has no legal basis in the UK, not in Scotland, not in England. UK Govt, UK Parliament and the Courts have the power.

      It could reveal by UK law,the common person has no power, no sovereignty. But by modern standards of international law, the UK Govt and UK Parliament have no real right to claim to be sovereign.

      That would be revolutionary. That would be power to the people. That would be like saying the Queen should not be the Queen without the consent of the people.

      The SNP don’t do stuff like that. Only the likes of Tommy Sheridan said stuff like that and we know what the SNP and the rest of the Scottish Establishment think of him and those types of views.

    310. gus1940 says:

      O/T

      During today’s PMQs I was surprised to hear a mention of The Lower Thames Crossing.

      This was something of a surprise as I had never before heard of this multi billion further ‘investment’ in the transport infrastructure of the SE of South Britain.

      Unless I haven’t been paying attention our wonderful media have kept pretty quiet about this project which naturally will have 3 lanes in each direction as opposed to the 2 on The Queensferry Crossing.

      Have the rest of our Wingers community heard of this?

      Another one which surprised me a while ago was the Millenium Thames Diversion from Maidenhead to downstream of Windsor. It’s amazing how these SE schemes costing billions seem to slip through without much publicity in Scotland.

    311. heedtracker says:

      Ian Brotherhood says:
      24 January, 2018 at 1:41 pm
      Poll from TSTV asking what we’d like as a new channel. Right now, ‘Scottish History’ way out in front on 75%.

      No wonder.

      Scotch history bullshitter, cringe creep of the millenium and future Lord Neil of GrovelingOlivershire, should also be involved but just like Cacofonix at the end of all the Asterix stories,

      https://www.reuters.com/article/idINIndia-50918120100818

    312. Bob Mack says:

      The law on Sovereignty has never been tested because up until a few years ago Scotland was represented by political parties who were predominantly Unionist and had no need to test otherwise. They were compliant to party and Westminster, with little thought towards the legal rights and entitlements of the people of Scotland.

      Things change though.

    313. yesindyref2 says:

      First there’s FUD, then there’s more FUD.

      Well, in the words of Monte Python

      “Lovely FUD! Wonderful FUD!”

      “FUD FUD FUD FUD FUD …”

      “FUD’s off”.

    314. Cactus says:

      Upon our independence, we will celebrate not just the night…

      We will celebrate an all week-long Burns FESTIVAL.

      Same goes for St Andrews and NYD.

      iScotland’s winter “ScotFest”

      30 Nov ~ 1 Jan ~ 25 Jan.

    315. heedtracker says:

      Another one which surprised me a while ago was the Millenium Thames Diversion from Maidenhead to downstream of Windsor. It’s amazing how these SE schemes costing billions seem to slip through without much publicity in Scotland.”

      Their new £15+bn tubeline for London, now renamed the Elizabeth Line, presumably for Brenda but its an odd royals arselick omission, does get a lot of coverage on the beeb r4 gimp network but its oddly muted too.

      Yesterday a beeb r4 gimp said its nice because it gets one and half million Londoners into town a bit quicker.

      Rejoice. All very far removed from BBC Scotland gimp rage at the worst bridge in the history of teamGB bridges, ever.

      You know which one.

    316. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ C&A Man

      “I believe Rock’s argument”

      https://imgur.com/a/bXIKc

    317. gus1940 says:

      Re today’s Flaggate Fiasco the one that really offends me is the Butcher’s Apron flying from Edinburgh Castle metaphorically waving 2 fingers at us.

    318. Robert Louis says:

      gus 1940

      Aye, the union jack flying from Edinburgh castle is just one big f*** you, to the people of Scotland. Cannot be gone soon enough.

      Far too many of the damn things in Edinburgh city centre. Everywhere you look, a big English colonial jack waving about.

      Most insulting of all, is the old Bank of Scotland building on the mound, which flies a larger, higher union jack above smaller saltires. That is no accident. It is done to make a simple statement, England is superior to Scotland.

      Total, total disgrace. Their should be no English colonial flags anywhere in Scotland. If the English love their union jack so freaking much, then they should stick it up in England. Scotland’s flag is the Saltire, and NOTHING else.

    319. colin alexander says:

      orri

      It’s WM that decides what is devolved. They are currently in the process of making sure (EU) devolved powers become WM reserved powers as the Brexit bill clearly demonstrates. WM can also reserve (un-devolve) Scottish devolved powers.

      So, if Royal Prerogative is devolved to devolved areas, is that why the UK Govt are just attempting to power grab to WM those devolved areas it regards as most important to get legislation on?

      ————————

      I would happily accept any commenter, even an ignorant tube, correcting any misinterpretations of the ruling, such as the Scot Govt / Scot Parl being permanent by statute( though how permanent when that statute can be repealed by WM ?). Even though that comment was an aside, not the main point central to my comment. But as I said, I invite corrections if I make a mistake.

    320. Valerie says:

      @gus1940

      Exactly same as you. I went – wtf – at mention of this Lower Thames crossing. Never heard of it.

      So sick of everything at the moment, feel like we are goibg around in circles. Nothing is minor ving forward for Scotland.

      Usual msm shite over RAH and the Butcher’s Apron, stoking up hatred towards Scots based on lies. Iain Dale of LBC put out a particularly vile tweet about the flag thing, and handing back our subsidy from England.

      I keep thinking and dreading what will happen if we dont get our Independence, and I think that’s because I see Tories, Labour and media emboldened to lie with impunity.

    321. yesindyref2 says:

      Flaggate is quite true to form though, the Scottish Tory Branch’s standard half-marsed slogan is “I’m alright Jack”.

    322. colin alexander says:

      Bob Mack says:
      24 January, 2018 at 2:12 pm
      “The law on Sovereignty has never been tested”

      I would agree with that in regard to situations such as:

      how does Scotland become independent? (we know referendums are advisory unless made binding by a WM statute making them binding)
      or
      What takes precedence when a Scottish democratic mandate is at odds with WM?
      The SG never challenged Brexit during Miller by saying Scotland voted Remain. So by the Claim of Right, that should be respected. Why not?

    323. CameronB Brodie says:

      OT @ Tom Gallager
      For an Emeritus Professor of Politics, you either show a stunning lack of honesty or an incredible lack of political awareness. I can not believe someone with your background has such a naive appreciation of what nationalism constitutes, so must conclude you are simply dishonest. Now there’s a surprise.

      Though it is clear you do not support the principle of universal human rights, I assume you support the state of Israel. So why not a Scottish state? Is it perhaps a characteristic of the British nationalism that you represent, which compels you to, instead, support the right-wing populism and English nationalism that delivered Brexit?

      What is the Right to Development?

      “The right to development is an inalienable human right by virtue of which every human person and all peoples are entitled to participate in, contribute to, and enjoy economic, social, cultural and political development, in which all human rights and fundamental freedoms can be fully realized.” (Article 1.1, Declaration on the Right to Development)

      “The human right to development also implies the full realization of the right of peoples to self-determination, which includes, subject to the relevant provisions of both International Covenants on Human Rights, the exercise of their inalienable right to full sovereignty over all their natural wealth and resources.” (Article 1.2)

      http://www.un.org/en/events/righttodevelopment/pdf/rtd_at_a_glance.pdf

      @Bradford University
      Are you happy with this clown tarnishing your reputation?

    324. mr thms says:

      This is going to come as shock to a lot of supporters of the union.

      Scotland is no longer represented in the Union Jack.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Scotland

      “..in 2003 a committee of the Scottish Parliament met to examine a petition that the Scottish Executive adopt the Pantone 300 colour as a standard. (Note that this blue is of a lighter shade than the Pantone 280 of the Union Flag). Having taken advice from a number of sources, including the office of the Lord Lyon King of Arms, the committee recommended that the optimum shade of blue for the Saltire be Pantone 300.”

      ps Does anyone have a photo of the Leader of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party and The Saltire?

    325. K1 says:

      He will now be referred to as ‘The Lying ‘quarter Scottish’ Iain Dale’

      Have a look at his next attempt to deflect from his blatant lies, and remember he hashtagged his original reporting tweet with ‘don’tbitethehandthatfeedsyou’.

      He’s a cunt as well as a liar.

      https://mobile.twitter.com/IainDale/status/956102698625007616

    326. cirsium says:

      @Robert Louis, 2.45pm

      “Far too many of the damn things in Edinburgh city centre. Everywhere you look, a big English colonial jack waving about.

      Most insulting of all, is the old Bank of Scotland building on the mound, which flies a larger, higher union jack above smaller saltires. “

      Yes, this struck me as well. I was in Edinburgh for the Festival last autumn. I hadn’t visited since the 2012 Rally. The number of Union Jacks flying including the outsize one over the Bank of Scotland building was noticeable. It felt like an occupied city

    327. K1 says:

      Just to confirm the hashtag he used in his original tweet…

      https://mobile.twitter.com/IainDale/status/956073350626988034

    328. K1 says:

      Jackie Burd tweeted to Dale and the FM asking if they would be up for a live interview. It’s unfuckingbelievable how low these so called journalists will go.

      Why not report the lie and refute it as is? But naw, we want to keep it going till it’s the top story on our flagship BBC 6pm Scottish News programme.

      Just sickening how they operate.

      https://mobile.twitter.com/Jackiebhurd/status/956094539638460416

    329. yesindyref2 says:

      Is that a parody account?

      Anyway, Sturgeon bars no holds or whatever the expression is:

      On a day when I am having to respond to the media at its worst, here’s an example of it at its very best. This is brave reporting from @FT, exposing behaviour that is outrageous and unacceptable. So depressing to think that this still happens in 2018.

      https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/956115920577064961

    330. orri says:

      Westminster has already decided which powers are devolved. In order to deal with UK’s EU membership they simply added a clause which said that powers delegated to the EU were exempt. On Brexit anyone with any ounce of reason would see that that clause becomes null and void so all those powers are devolved.

      Having devolved powers Westminster has no constitutional power to unilaterally take them back as in order to do so they must pass laws that by their very nature impact on devolved issues. The only scope for mischief they have is to pretend that the powers aren’t currently devolved and intercept them before the clause that exempts them ends. Unfortunately for them we in Scotland aren’t falling for that pretense.

      So as far as it goes and as Westminster has already been taken to task over trying to bypass due process there’s no way to avoid eventually having to gain Royal Assent on any bills they hope to pass.

      The whole Henry 8th thing is based on the idea of post legislative consent being obtained from the HoC on the assumption that they will be able to reverse any changes made at a later date.

      The Sewel Convention is a similar idea as long as the changes being made aren’t irreversible. And bearing in mind that a key stage in the process is that of Royal Assent being granted regardless of who legislates on Scotland’s behalf. Which is where the current refusal to grant Legislative Consent comes in.

      There is no current crisis to requires Westminster legislate on behalf of Holyrood.

      The Scotland Act as it currently stands will move the powers delegated to the EU that would otherwise have been devolved to Holyrood.

      That Act can’t be amended without Holyrood’s agreement because of the way the FM’s control over the Royal Prerogative is worded. Or it could but only if the Queen opts to ignore the FM’s advice.

    331. Brian Powell says:

      There is no need for a debate on the flag thing, the BBC just needs to put the correct info out and hold the newspapers to account.

    332. Bob Mack says:

      @Orri,

      Yes correct. I think Joanna Cherry mentions that there is a group of seven Scottish Mp’s trying to mount a court challenge on that very point of devolution.

      I think it was in the National. Apparently Westminster is trying to stop them from doing so.

    333. Cactus says:

      Regarding the MSMs latest fake ‘false flag’ news, it could be they’re trying out their new ‘strategy’ straight away, so’s they can gauge the public reaction / susceptibility.

      Accordingly, I would like to update Gandhi’s finest, for us:

      First they ignore Scotland
      Then they laugh at Scotland
      Then they fight Scotland
      Then we laugh at them
      Then they try to wind us up
      Then we laugh at them once again
      Then we win.

      Then we WIN.

    334. jazzscot says:

      The flag that annoyed me the most in the past year was the one that they kept cutting away to during the 2017 Edinburgh Military Tattoo. Lots of imagery of colonialism

      https://imgur.com/hQf8ybY

    335. mr thms says:

      Since 2003 Scotland not been not been represented in the Union Jack.

      There was a Labour and Lib-Dem coalition government in Holyrood at the time.Not sure if there was a vote in the Scottish government, but this is what happened..

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Scotland

      “…in 2003 a committee of the Scottish Parliament met to examine a petition that the Scottish Executive adopt the Pantone 300 colour as a standard. (Note that this blue is of a lighter shade than the Pantone 280 of the Union Flag).”

      I take it there has been some good news about Scotland today?

      I notice 33% of the fall in unemployment in the U.K. wa in Scotland.

    336. starlaw says:

      Jazzscot 3.53

      Ive thought the tattoo has become more Anglified since 2014 I cant watch it now, not a patch on what it once was.

    337. Legerwood says:

      Now the Telegraph (on-line) is having a go at Mr Salmond over the flags because they say he has revealed a private conversation with the Queen ie ‘Ok if we fly the Lion Rampant, Betty? AYE, gaun yersel’ son.’

    338. Cactus says:

      And the moral of the story…

      We just keep laughing at them until we WIN our independence.

      That’s a pretty peaceful way to go about it.

      Hook, line, sink em.

    339. orri says:

      Telegraph failing to ignore the reality which is that of Royal Assent to flying the Royal Standard by the Scottish Government on certain Royal occasions.

      Seriously, Union Jack, a contentious flag even if not as much as in NI, is replaced with the Lion Rampant which is far more apt and has far more support across the board. They have a fucking problem with that?

    340. Petra says:

      @ mr thms says at 4:01 pm …. ”Since 2003 Scotland not been not been represented in the Union Jack. There was a Labour and Lib-Dem coalition government in Holyrood at the time. Not sure if there was a vote in the Scottish government, but this is what happened..”

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Scotland

      Thanks for the link mr thms. Really interesting although this would make you sick. The Scots being ‘used’, as per usual, although it highlights the ‘differences’ between the Scots and English even when it comes to the Military. How come they couldn’t win over hearts and minds with the Union Joke? Have they ever reflected on that?

      ‘In the battle for “hearts and minds” in Iraq, the Saltire was again used by the British Army as a means of distinguishing troops belonging to Scottish regiments from other coalition forces, in the hope of fostering better relations with the civilian population in the area south west of Baghdad. Leaflets were distributed to Iraqi civilians, by members of the Black Watch, depicting troops and vehicles set against a backdrop of the Saltire…’

    341. jfngw says:

      I see Ballacaledonia are having a go at this site regarding the Oxfam story. Their point seems to be that factual reporting is not important as long as the message is correct. Regurgitating a older report and pretending it is new seems to be alright by them.

      They are even quoting some of the more extreme below the line comments to highlight how bad the site is, as if this doesn’t happen in every newspaper. Below the belt journalism, a job at the BBC or Herald must be just around the corner.

      I never normally read Bella, bit of a pseuds corner to me, only spotted some comments on twitter. Certainly would never waste my money funding it.

    342. K1 says:

      Strangely enough, no, it links directly to Jackie Bird’s twitter account.

      But I can’t find the tweet on her timeline, though I did find this article, a fact check on the Fleg story, that she tweeted out to FM, Telegraph, Dale et al.

      Oh and she did tweet Union Jack cup and saucer pic when commenting on having a break…trolling definitely. 🙂

      http://archive.is/GbgDX

    343. jfngw says:

      @K1

      It’s a parody account, the description is clear:

      ‘Delivering the news to Scotland on behalf our Imperial Masters in London. Parody General News Politics News’

      Also why would she call herself Jackiebhurd.

    344. Luigi says:

      RE: Flag gate – great, bring it on. When the yoon media have to scrape this one off the ground, they really have nothing else, absolutely nothing to attack the Scottish government with. A sign of sheer desperation to keep the “No 2indy” brigade simmering away. 🙂

      By the way – anyone offended by a lack of union flags flying from our public buildings is hardly planning to vote YES anyway, right? Don’t waste time trying to placate them. These cognitive dissonanters will get angry and shouty at anything. They know the games up in the long term, and they just can’t help themselves.

      Let them rant, puir souls. For the rest of us, it’s some welcome light entertainment. What can we do to keep this little beaut blazing away for a few days? 🙂

    345. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Newsdrive just repeated all the flag shite, with prominent speaking role for Murdo Fraser.

      If you’re on Twitter please #fuckBBCScotland and spread it – they’re trolling every one of us big-time.

    346. Another Union Dividend says:

      The Union Flag nonsense again proves that the BBC’s agenda is set by London’s right wing press.

      Another reason why wings readers should be buying the National on a regular basis or better still take out a subscription

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/15894126.David_Mundell_faces_calls_to_resign_after_breaking_promise_to_protect_Scotland_from_post_Brexit__power_grab_/

      This should be the headline story on BBC Scotland news this evening. But we all know it won’t.

      On Union Flag on Bank of Scotland HQ in the Mound, a friend who was high up in BoS at time of Lloyds take over told me that on their first visit to Edinburgh Lloyds top brass insisted that the Union Flag was prominently flown from the building.

      Just to let the Scots know who was the new boss.

    347. colin alexander says:

      @ Bob Mack
      and
      @ Orri

      Thank you for sensible debate.

    348. yesindyref2 says:

      Please please please pretty please don’t respond @Rev to the new outbreak of small-mindedness. Your article was justified, I read and commented on the distorted Herald article which soudht to imply the Oxfam report was all about Scotland, as did others.

    349. colin alexander says:

      “They are even quoting some of the more extreme below the line comments to highlight how bad the site is”

      See! How many times have I politely warned people not to indulge in insults and threats against commenters or others, such as BBC people or politicians. It damages the reputation of WoS and the independence movement.

      If you disagree with something I or someone else said: Refute it by proving them wrong through debate or ignore it. No need for insults, swearing and threats.

      If you think Jackie Bird is politically biased, it’s a fair comment, but other insults about her are overstepping the mark. It becomes ned talk.

    350. Andy-B says:

      On the flag issue, of which I’m uncertain of law. Isn’t it up to the Scottish government as to which flag/s fly over Scottish government, or council buildings?

      I recall a similar unonist outcry when Sturgeon met May at Bute house, no Union Jack flag was present then.

    351. mr thms says:

      #Petra @ 4.19pm

      The shade of blue of The Saltire was changed in the same year Lord Kerr wrote Article 50 for the defunct Treaty on the Constiution of Europe

      Obvioudlt there was a hold up on Scotland’s march to independence but even die hard unionists can see its coming. 😉

    352. mr thms says:

      #Petra @ 4.19pm

      The shade of blue of The Saltire was changed in the same year Lord Kerr wrote Article 50 for the defunct Treaty on the Constiution of Europe

      Obviously there was a hold up on Scotland’s march to independence but even die hard unionists can see its coming. 😉

    353. mike cassidy says:

      Those mentioning expensive English construction projects may like to read this – not archivable – from the distant past of 2007.

      https://www.standard.co.uk/news/scotland-given-500m-sop-for-crossrail-6616253.html

      What a horrible country we are with perks like care for the elderly. Have we no shame?

      I love the one comment under it – from 4 years ago!

    354. Breeks says:

      Scot Finlayson says:
      24 January, 2018 at 12:28 pm ……..

      i take it you noticed what happened in Catalonia,

      people like you are dangerous….

      I did indeed Scot. The Catalonians were encouraged to put their faith in winning a democratic majority, which they did, and believing that was all they needed, then discovered their democratic self determination was trumped, rendered void and illegal by the Spanish government , Spanish Courts, Internationally recognised Spanish Constitution.

      You don’t see any parallels???

      Remember what Donald Tusk said about Catalonia? “Spain remains our only interlocutor”.

      Remember what Michel Barnier said about Scotland? “I can only negotiate with Westminster”.

      Go ahead Scot. Go ahead and have your referendum without taking care of this thorny sovereignty business first, and your recklessness will put Scotland in precisely the same constitutional straightjacket as Catalonia, at the mercy of the fascist Spanish Government, and recognised by nobody on the international circuit except Gambia.

      You can slag me all you like, call me a troll, tractor-ed, really, whatever floats your boat. There are important constitutional questions which are not being answered, and actions proceeding unchallenged which follow no logic and make no constitutional sense. Maybe if the Catalonians had listened to more Constitutional advice prior to their referendum, asked the awkward questions at the right time before the event, they might have avoided the Guardia Civil batons and had their constitutional sovereignty properly won at the first time of asking, uncontested and recognised internationally. But they didn’t. Friends, and kindred companions they might be, but the Catalonians got it wrong.

      With regards the Brexit Remain vote, it was astutely observed weeks ago that Theresa May’s Government is observing the Scottish doctrine of popular sovereignty when she says that the U.K. electorate voted for Brexit so Brexit is what they will get. Westminster see itself bound by will of the sovereign people.

      Nicola Sturgeon by contrast is adopting the English doctrine of Parliamentary Sovereignty, being able to overrule the democratic will of the people, and set aside the democratic majority which chose to remain in Europe. According to the SNP, the will of the Scottish people is not sovereign.

      I invite you Scot to stop throwing insults around and tell me what Constitutional basis the SNP has to overrule the democratic will of the Scottish electorate, and embark upon a campaign to win sovereign independence with such a bizarre and dubious interpretation of Scotland’s popular sovereignty.

      I take it you noticed what happened in Catalonia…

    355. Orri says:

      Although the symbolism of having an exercise of Royal Prerogative in refusing to sign a bill into statute might be fun I’ve just remembered that there’s another way.

      The procedure set down in the Scotland Act requires certain physical objects to do so which I can’t remember at the moment. Obviously if lost they might be officially substituted in some way but if I was the Scottish Government I’d make sure that it had control of them and their use at all times.

      If I remember though one of those is the Royal Seal of Scotland and is in the safe keeping of the First Minister.

      Which means that if she chose to do so she could disrupt any changes to the law in Scotland not just those in devolved areas.

      With the refusal to grant Legislative Consent I’d say Holyrood would back such a move.

    356. ScotsRenewables says:

      jfngw says:
      24 January, 2018 at 4:26 pm
      I see Ballacaledonia are having a go at this site

      I even got a mention lol

      Sadly it looks as though Bella are becoming part of the problem rather than part of the solution. Best to just ignore them and let them quietly disappear up their own fundament.

      (Bugger, I’ve responded to the article – why don’t I listen to myself !!)

    357. yesindyref2 says:

      @Orri
      https://firstminister.gov.scot/about/appointment-role/

      “Largely ceremonial”, but that leaves wiggle room. It’s used by the NRS on her behalf. Also: “The First Minister is Keeper of the Scottish Seal. (The Seal is the means of signifying Crown approval for letters patent and royal proclamations under section 45(7) of the Scotland Act 1998).”

      Other objects are the Scottish regalia used for coronations, hold on,

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honours_of_Scotland

      There’s quite a lot of info about, and Scotland does have the lot as far as safekeeping, and I have wondered myself in the past if there’s any mileage in that …

    358. Robert Peffers says:

      @Thepnr says: 24 January, 2018 at 12:14 am:

      “Please don’t feed the trolls, like stray cats they keep coming back for more. Ignore them and they will eventually find somewhere else to settle.”

      While you are entitled to your opinion, Thepnr, I’m certain these people are way above simply Troll level.

      Their motives are far more sinister. Yesterday a government spokesman laughingly announce the Westminster Establishment had splashed out yet another large whack of the Scottish taxpayer’s contribution to Westminster on a new unit, in addition to the whacks aready being spent on this lot:-

      https://www.army.mod.uk/who-we-are/corps-regiments-and-units/77th-brigade/

      And this lot – GCHQ:-

      http://www.gazetteandherald.co.uk/news/national/13497967.Nicola_Sturgeon_presses_PM_on_reports_GCHQ_is_spying_on_MSPs/

      If you seriously imagine that Westminster isn’t at least monitoring what Wingers are commenting you really must be a lot more naïve than I had previously given you credit as.

      You can bet your bottom dollar that the have not just infiltrated Wings but the SNP and SG and the Holyrood Civil Service.

      Remember too that the heads of the civil service at Holyrood are senior Whitehall Civil Servants and the last one was under heavy fire by his London colleagues who were reported as claiming, “He had gone native”:-

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/8797676/Scotlands-top-civil-servant-faces-gone-native-complaints.html

      and:-

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9645906/When-it-comes-to-Sir-Peter-Housden-we-have-a-problem.html

      It would be a true miracle if they had not planted sleepers in all independence organisations. Do not be surprised if some time in the future we get a repeat of the scandal of UK undercover agents marrying people and raising families only to vanish as they did in Northern Ireland and within even UK organisations Westminster were afraid of:-

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_undercover_policing_relationships_scandal

      and :-

      https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/nov/20/met-police-apologise-women-had-relationships-with-undercover-officers

      Thing is that Scottish Independence is a greater threat to the Westminster Establishment than such as Hitler, Franco and Stalin were.

    359. Bob Mack says:

      @ Breeks,

      There is one major difference. Catalonia is a principality of Spain just as Wales is of England. It has been so for hundreds of years.

      Scotland entered into the Union as an independent nation on a supposedly even footing. Legally that is very different indeed.

    360. yesindyref2 says:

      @orri
      There’s also something called the Ridngs or something, for opening a session of Holyrood and allowing the monarch in. Something similar perhaps to Black Rod.

      Must admit I’ve often wondered how much is just ceremonial, and how much is part of the Constituion – which always remains. So for instance if Black Rod chapped the doors of the UK Parliament wanting admittance for the Queen, and the Speaker shouted out:

      “No, bog off, no double-glazing salespeople allowed in”, what would exactly happen next?

    361. Wullie B says:

      Colin Alexander, from all at wings, feck off back to Bella, your colours are nailed to the mast, before I thought you were a yoon but more likely one of Tommy’s acolytes that caused me never to to never look at that page again due to the SSP and solidarity is the only true Scotland pish

    362. Bill McLean says:

      Looks like any lingering claim by Britain/the UK/England to be the epitome of “honesty”, “decency”, “fairness”, “democracy” and “impartiality” has finally been blown out of the water by their own propaganda servants behaviour in the media today. Mind you I stopped believing any of it at about age 12……….. An Indian politician said once that “Britain’s word is worthless”. Do they have to prove it so often?

    363. Orri says:

      Fairly certain some of those are needed to sign laws onto Scotland’s statute books.

      If you think about it if Scotland were the kind of constitutional monarchy England believes itself to be these are the kind of safeguards you’d want in place.

      The monarch officially has the power to enact laws. Or to refuse to do so as Queen Anne did just prior to the Act of Union. However she can’t do so without she agreement of Parliament who, in effect, hold the keys to the ignition.

      In Scotland’s case not only can the FM advice the monarch on use of Royal Prerogative but she can also prevent some functions of government taking place and not necessarily restricted to devolved issues.

    364. Wullie B says:

      ScotsRenewables says:
      24 January, 2018 at 5:41 pm

      jfngw says:
      24 January, 2018 at 4:26 pm
      I see Ballacaledonia are having a go at this site

      I even got a mention lol

      Sadly it looks as though Bella are becoming part of the problem rather than part of the solution. Best to just ignore them and let them quietly disappear up their own fundament.

      (Bugger, I’ve responded to the article – why don’t I listen to myself !!)

      I found Bella to be a site that I could no longer visit, especially at the rise of RISE and Hope over fear, at a time of SNPx2 was not the right way to go, and any of us who did it didnt believe in independence as it gave no support to the Yoon fored RISE , and Tommy S’s Solidarity/SSP, or who ever he aligns himself with on that particular day, and a certain post yesterday main me think straight to the time I left

      Who do you think posted, Answers on an SAE to Somewhere over the rainbow

      2The only party that represented the working class at Holyrood was
      Tommy Sheridan’s SSP.

      “Whereas the SNP are a broad church, social democrats” blah blah.

      Heard it all before.2

    365. Undeadshuan says:

      Please stop feeding the 77th brigade trolls.

      Im finding I just skip over majority of posts now if the trolls are in conversation.

      It makes wings crap and thats what the trolls want!

      If you want to wind them up, download signal and use it instead of phone and sms. Its encrypted and unhackable.

      Edward Snowdon recommends it

      https://signal.org

    366. colin alexander says:

      Bob Mack said:

      “Colin you still cannot answer my point. Where did the judges say Royal Perogative is permissable in Scotland ? Where?”

      I would say, that’s not what they were asked to rule on. They were asked to rule on the UK Govt triggering Article 50 to leave the EU by use of Royal Prerogative:

      As a result of your question, I came across this (Apologies if it’s already been linked to on WoS):

      https://aberdeenunilaw.wordpress.com/2016/07/11/article-50-the-articles-of-union-and-using-the-royal-prerogative-to-end-the-union-between-scotland-and-england/

      What do people think?

      This is very relevant to indyref and S30 and the whole question of: Does Scotland need Westminster’s permission to end the Union.

    367. mike cassidy says:

      With the passing of Ursula Le Guin, some relevant words of wisdom

      ” We live in capitalism. Its power seems inescapable. So did the divine right of kings. Any human power can be resisted and changed by human beings. Resistance and change often begin in art, and very often in our art—the art of words.” “

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et9Nf-rsALk

    368. ronnie anderson says:

      Wow the LibDems political broadcast I can’t attest to the use of the white powder by the person who wrote that script. He’ll no be hinging his hat oan ma hatstand LoL .

    369. Thepnr says:

      Without the SNP leading the Scottish Government then their concerns are over. Imagine there was a failure to obtain an Independence supporting majority in Holyrood in 2016 then we would likely right now have Ruth Davidson as FM as the second largest party.

      How many can imagine that she and her fellow Tories would be fighting in any meaningful way to keep Scotland in the EU or even the Single Market and Customs union? I can’t, she herself said recently that:

      “While I recognise the complexity of the current negotiations, no government of the Conservative and Unionist Party should countenance any deal that compromises the political, economic or constitutional integrity of the United Kingdom.”

      You have websites like Bella that often have articles by well known journalists and other figures regularly writing articles critical of the SNP, to what purpose? To me they are then no better than the BBC and UK papers that continually do the same.

      Their is only one vehicle that could possibly lead to a second referendum and Independence and that IS the SNP. All attempts at undermining the SNP are in order to remove this threat on Westminster’s behalf.

      This includes so called Indy supporters that post on Wings with their own criticisms of the SNP, it’s their own attempt at undermining support for Independence. No one is saying that any of us need to support all of the SNP’s policies, of course we wont and very few will.

      Posting nothing else though other than criticism of the SNP is a pathetic extension of the MSM narrative, if that doesn’t tell you that these posters have an agenda that is not consistent with support for Independence then nothing will.

    370. galamcennalath says:

      Cameron says Brexit was a “mistake, not a disaster” .

      How does he know? It hasn’t happened yet and no one actually knows how it will play out.

      Agreed, it was a “mistake”, because there appears to be absolutely no advantages or benefits for most folks. It seems highly unlikely any ordinary people will be better of, and no one is actually suggesting that any would now!

      It still has the capacity for disaster. Any kind of hard Brexit will hurt jobs, services, and standards of living badly. A soft full single market outcome could fall short of disaster. Cameron cannot possibly know disaster will be avoided.

    371. yesindyref2 says:

      “Scottish Government demands apology over Union flag row”

      http://archive.is/MrXxE

      Now the Government has written to three newspapers – the Daily Mail, Daily Express and Telegraph – giving 28 days for an apology to be issued.

      Oh dear, the heart bleeds for the fake media.

    372. ronnie anderson says:

      Thepnr Bella has long since shown its true colours as do their journalists & readership, attacking other Pro Indy sites makes them look ridiculous in the eyes of the larger Indy movement .

    373. pool9 says:

      Thepnr @ 7.11pm.

      Agreed.

      That and attempts to lead folk down sophistry riddled legalese sounding rabbitholes does no-one any favours. Those are arguments designed to sound good and instill doubt. They are not made in good faith.

      Remember the core principles of Independence. That the will of Scottish voters is not respected in the Westminster Parliament. That the clearly expressed wishes of the Scottish people can be ignored, be it in the context of the Brexit vote or Westminster. That Scottish affairs have been mismanaged from London for over 300 years, Scotland’s lands and resources used to enrich folk outwith our country, and yet we are asked to continue to let ourselves be ruled by people with no interest in the health and wellbeing of folk living in Scotland.

      This is the phony war period. Waiting for the starting gun.Brexit is a godawful mess and May and her ministers are running headless before the oncoming storm. Their plays are short-term political ones, because they haven’t got a clue what will happen long term. They didn’t do the research on Europe. But they do have a lot on Scotland, and are trying their best to hold on here.

      Divide and conquer as always. Don’t let it happen again.

    374. K1 says:

      My bad re the Jackie Bird account. It’s that bad in terms of journalism in Scotland that I find it believable. 😉

      ———————————–

      “They are even quoting some of the more extreme below the line comments to highlight how bad the site is”

      See! How many times have I politely warned people not to indulge in insults and threats against commenters or others, such as BBC people or politicians. It damages the reputation of WoS and the independence movement.

      If you disagree with something I or someone else said: Refute it by proving them wrong through debate or ignore it. No need for insults, swearing and threats.

      If you think Jackie Bird is politically biased, it’s a fair comment, but other insults about her are overstepping the mark. It becomes ned talk.’

      Here’s the Rev agreeing with you:

      https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/956105671602311178

      Want to lecture the Rev some more? Your’e not the moderator of this site, now fuck uff wi yer pish.

    375. jfngw says:

      Noticed the BBC used the Saltire in nearly every shot, was this to give the impression that it was replacing the Union Flag on specific days rather than the Royal Standard of Scotland (not shown as far as I could tell).

      Now the Herald has a Saltire vs Union Flag story, not sure what this has to do with flying the Standard.

      Difficult to comprehend these unionist who are frothing that the Royal Standard is being used to mark Royal events. Suspect many of them don’t know the difference.

      When the Queen opens Parliament the Union Flag is removed and replaced by the Royal Standard, how shocking!

    376. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @pool9 (7.33) –

      Hear hear.

    377. ronnie anderson says:

      K1 That’s him Telt ,same as yourself I’ve nae time for these clowns , i live in hope that other Wingers wise up sooner rather than later & stop conversing with the arseholes .

    378. colin alexander says:

      So, leaving the EU IS a constitutional matter.

      One side of the argument is: A:

      International law and the UK recognise the right of self-determination. Democracy.

      Scotland voted Remain.

      The people self-determined to remain part of the EU.

      plus

      The people in Scotland are sovereign (Claim of Right).

      It’s illegal to take Scotland out of the EU without the consent of the people.

      vs

      The Union abolished Scotland ( and England) and created the UK.

      The referendum was a UK-wide (advisory only) referendum. So, legally, it was irrelevant.

      The sovereignty of the people of Scotland expressed by the Scottish Parliament in the Claim of Right was transferred to the WM Parliament ( Commons and Lords).

      So, WM decides for the UK which used to be Scotland and England.
      ————————————————-

      Why didn’t the Lord Advocate argue case A in Miller?

      Is that an argument for another day – especially if people voted for indy via an indyref?

      Is it politics rather than law?

      Are there other reasons why those arguments in A weren’t put forward?

    379. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Just seen this on the Rev’s Twitter with Max Keiser giving his opinion on the Beeb. 🙂

      https://twitter.com/maxkeiser/status/956222271525306368

    380. jfngw says:

      @K1

      The first comment is mine repeating what Bella is doing to discredit this site, the rest is not mine. Not sure why you are mixing up peoples quotes as I have not requested anyone limit their comments.

      But you have proved you can swear, so well done there. If I was a on the fence indy supporter you would definitely repel me, a sort of CA alter ego.

    381. @breeks,

      not the slightest clue what you`re on about,verging on the gibberish from numpty,

      you will be standing at the border waving a piece of constitutional jurisprudence,like Neville Chamberlain,as the tanks of the Brutish army roll over you heading for Holyrood,

      trust in Nicola,”conversation not confrontation”.

    382. One_Scot says:

      My thoughts for what it’s worth. If someone wants to be a knob, let them be a knob, just don’t stroke their ego, it will only go to their head.

    383. Breeks says:

      Bob Mack says:
      24 January, 2018 at 5:50 pm
      @ Breeks,

      There is one major difference. Catalonia is a principality of Spain just as Wales is of England. It has been so for hundreds of years.

      Scotland entered into the Union as an independent nation on a supposedly even footing. Legally that is very different indeed.

      I’d feel a lot happier if Europe could be persuaded to see it like that, but since they might “discuss” Brexit with Scotland, (Michel Barnier’s door is always open), he was at pains to point out he will only negotiate with Westminster.

      Whatever the constitutional legality, it is unequivocally clear that Europe at this stage in the proceedings is recognising Westminster as the sovereign UK interlocutor, and does not recognise Scottish Sovereignty.

      If we are indeed so home and dry on the grounds of our Constitutional history, then what possible purpose does it serve, what advantage does it bring us, to sit on our hands and keep quiet about it while the techtonic plates of Europe move all around us?

      How does it avail us to wait in silence while Barnier and Westminster conclude fraught negotiations over Brexit, wait until they have a deal, then play our sovereignty card so that everything has to be started again from the beginning? Why do that? Just for badness???

      There is a concept in contract law concerning damages, whereby you have a duty to mitigate your own losses. If you have the opportunity to save something in imminent peril but choose not to, you can put at risk your claim for damages and insurance. For example, you come home to find your house on fire, but don’t bother calling the fire brigade. Another example is having your car stolen but only after leaving the doors unlocked and keys in the ignition. To an extent, you’re to blame for some of your own injury, so your insurer has a get out.

      Roll that principle into the question of sovereignty, and if we Scots know full well we are sovereign, then isn’t it incumbent upon us, don’t we have a duty of care to correct the misapprehensions of other parties who are proceeding to make important agreements which are based upon a flawed constitutional premise?

      It’s a bit like being at a wedding. “Should anyone here present know of any reason that these Kingdoms should not be joined in unholy political Union, speak now or forever hold your peace”….YES! I object! I present Scottish Sovereignty as the reason this Union cannot be legitimate!!! Stop the ceremony! – Except by keeping mum about our sovereignty, I worry that we might inadvertently be resigning ourselves to “forever hold our peace”.

      Do you see why this worries me? Suppose we get to finalised Brexit deal, and Barnier greets our claims on sovereignty with a shrug of his shoulders “Ach, why didn’t you bring this to me sooner?”

      I don’t want to damage the SNP, but I desperately do want the SNP to say relax! We’ve got the Sovereignty issue all under control, and the EU is fully up to speed and already has draft contingency agreements ready for separate Scottish and English Brexit eventualities. I want to hear Mike Russell saying those actual words, Michel Barnier giving it the thumbs up, and Theresa May suddenly being ever so nice to Scotland because she understands than Scotland can veto her EU Trade Deal.

      Why would we not do this??? Talk to me. Make me understand.

    384. yesindyref2 says:

      Well well, watching part 1 of the end of Merlin (maybe missed it first time, can’t remember).

      MMXII the date of the episode, BBC cymru Wales, the time of the start of Indy Ref 1, and Arthur to his army “For Camelot, for Albion [fine so far] and for – the United Kingdom”.

      You what?

      Subliminal messages back then.

    385. colin alexander says:

      “Criticising the SNP…it’s their own attempt at undermining support for independence.”

      That might be true in some cases, but in my case and for many others, that’s rubbish.

      That’s the equivalent of T May’s “one nation” mince, that we have to give unqualified support to the UK Tory Govt or else we are letting down the whole of the UK (including Scotland).

      Like T May, it’s an attempt to silence debate or criticism (of the SNP or Scottish Govt).

      Fact: The SNP already have an indyref democratic “triple” mandate.

      Fact: The Scottish Parliament already authorised an indyref.

      Fact: You can fully support independence and fully despise the SNP.

      You can always vote Labour at elections but vote YES to independence.

      Fact: Tying support for independence with support for the SNP was a clear tactic by the Tories and Labour to try and get their party supporters to vote according to party lines. “Stick it to Alex Salmond and the SNP by voting NO” was a clear Unionist tactic.

      Tommy Sheridan recognised and addressed this with a speech: he said voting No because you don’t like Alex Salmond or the SNP is like not buying a lovely house, ideal size, ideal location etc. Your dream home, but because you don’t like the wallpaper or the carpet you don’t buy it.

      He pointed out, you can vote indy but vote for a non-SNP govt of indy Scotland. You can want indy, but not the SNP. As govts can be changed – like wallpaper in a house.

      So, to continually insist support you must support the SNP if you support independence is a mistake.

      To label everyone else that gives any criticism of the SNP party or the SNP WM devolution govt as an enemy of independence will leave about 100,000 SNP members.

      We won’t get independence with only 100,000 YES votes, cos all the rest were told they are enemies of indy for not giving unqualified 100% backing to the SNP.

    386. K1 says:

      jfngw?

      I block quoted his entire post. Nothing of what I am aiming at him has anything to do with your comment. It just happened to be what he bounced off to make his ridiculous ‘non’ point.

      ‘Swearing’ on this site is not a reason why people ‘don’t’ support independence. Just as ‘not swearing’ is not a reason why people ‘do’ support independence.

      If that’s ‘your’ criteria for supporting independence, then you are more or less stating that I have immense power over you. That is plainly a ridiculous assertion. You are an adult, you don’t like someone’s posts…don’t read them.

      Did you actually click on the link I posted to him? It rather ‘holes’ his schtick on the matter of swearing on Wings, so I will simply repeat the fact, there is no moderation on swearing on Wings.

      Further it is a rather thin argument to claim that Independence support is ‘being lost’ by a stranger on the internet using a swear word on the number one Independence blog in Scotland?

      If that is the case, where is the proof of this assertion? And why hasn’t anyone told the Rev this? Where are the diminished stats of Wings readership that give credence to this assertion, where are the stats that are showing independence support haemorrhaging because ‘people are swearing on Wings btl’?

      What about the swearing atl? What about Stu’s actual swearing, has that not put you off yet?

      Pfft.

    387. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      I don’t think there is any point in discussing what Europe,the EU and the various countries think about Scotland’s future in or out of the EU.

      They are all constrained by protocol (as they are on the Catalonia issue) and cannot give any answer or comment that could be construed as an interference in the affairs of the UK. At best they will be ambiguous and we can sometimes take from that a strong indication that here is no intention to be other than fair to Scotland. We do know that there is strong pro Scottish sentiment across Europe.

      The notion that the EU would want a country with most of Europe’s oil and gas, most of Europe’s fishing grounds and a strategic command of the North Atlantic out of the EU is of course absurd.

      Tonight’s BBC Scottish news was utterly appalling being a completely unbalanced account of Scotland’s imaginary huge trading opportunities out of the EU particularly into the US market. The absurd implication in much of this stuff that we wont get Corn Flakes and Maltesers etc when the “hard border” comes down and England will stop buying our stuff is infantile.

      STV news reported that the Justice Secretary had full support on his dealing with the Police Chief issue and that the SNP Government beat the ludicrous Tory attack on the vote in the parliament. Not a cheep from BBC which has been leading the attack on Michael Mathieson for weeks.

    388. Lenny Hartley says:

      O/T misreporting Scotland tonight stated that Scotlands biggest export was food and drink worth 5.5 bn pa. Now basic arithmetic tells me that at around £45 a barrell and approx 1 million barrels per day being produced comes to a lot more than 5.5 bn i reckon at least three times the value of food and drink and thats taking off Scottish consumption of around 200,000 bpd.
      This year production is forecast to double to 2 million bpd.

    389. Bob Mack says:

      @ Breeks,

      This is difficult to try and explain but here goes. Catalonia has no written guarantees or rules to abide by since it is a conquered area and thus the Spanish state felt that they need guarantee nothing.

      Scotland was more fortunate in that it joined ” voluntarily” with England and it’s territories and in doing so had written conditions as part of that process. It may seem minor but legally it is important

      The next point is probably the cause of more debate. We lost a referendum in 2014. Like it or not we lost. Now what evidence is there to say if we held one again tomorrow we would win ? The last opinion poll I know of indicated we were still behind ,even though by only a single point or so. This is high stakes stuff, because if we lose again you can kiss goodbye to indy for the next two decades.

      Every day we wait could help due to Brexit etc. We must make use of that.

    390. Thepnr says:

      ONLY the SNP can provide the Scottish people with an opportunity to chose again whether to become Independent or remain a part of the UK.

      Undermining the SNP undermines the possibility of Independence. This is why Westminster and the MSM do so at every opportunity even going so far as to completely make things up.

      So bad it is now that today Holyrood have demanded an apology from the Telegraph, Daily Mail and daily Express for their lies about the FM over claims she ordered that the Union Flag was not to be flown from Scottish Government buildings.

      FACT: Those undermining the SNP are undermining support for Independence. That’s the whole point of SNP BAADDD!

    391. Sunniva says:

      I read that Cook’s main reason was that he feared the quality of MSP we would get and thought it unworthyof Scotland. He had been a Labour councillor in Edinburgh before becoming an MP. His memories of the Labour numpties on that forum were bleak. He envisaged that quality of person becoming an MSP.

      Interesting that he thought 33% of the entire electorate was sufficient. It was Scunnerthem that upped it to 40%.

      I voted Yes.

    392. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Why all the “debate”?

      To me, it’s simple. If a majority of the sovereign Scots people vote to dissolve the Treaty of Union, then there is no more UK.

      The Scots, who are, currently, citizens of the EU, must remain citizens of the EU.

      Thus, how will the EU handle that scenario? England, along with its principality (and its province?) leave the EU. Scotland voted to remain.

      How is the EU going to deal with that guddle?

    393. Capella says:

      @ Lenny Hartley – Mr Peffers will be along shortly to explain that Scotland does not produce any oil. It comes from “Terra Incognito”. Nobody knows where that is. Westminster has boldly stepped up to the plate to collect the revenues.

      But the UK exports oil. Sometimes, tankers load up directly from the rigs in Terra Incognito. Nobody knows how much it is worth.

      Mr Cook helped to redraw our maritime borders so that more of Terra Incognito would be in England rather than Scotland, although we are all just one big happy United Kingdom so it is a puzzle why that was considered necessary.

    394. jfngw says:

      @K1

      I don’t read CA comments (I’m assuming it is him) so the fact you were replying to him was oblivious to me. If you mix two peoples comments it is wise to make clear who you actually replying to.

      I don’t believe the Rev swears on this site, twitter is a free for all so who cares. There is a difference between swearing and telling someone to ‘fuck off’, if you don’t think aggression puts people off then fine go ahead, as you say I’m not the site censor.

    395. Dorothy Devine says:

      RT has ticker tape running saying “Sturgeon will only fly the union flag on remembrance day”

      I am a little cheesed off about that.

    396. wull2 says:

      My thoughts and only my thoughts, could the EU have said to Davis in private. Anything that is devolved will be passed back to that country. All Fluffy keeps saying more powers will come to Scotland, he might have been told all devolved powers will come back to Scotland, (wishful thinking on my part)

      It could be why he is making his staff greater. More than likely this is wrong, but until we know what he is up to I will keep making, all or partial theory’s up.

      They know Scotland wont send the powers back to WN, so they have no choice but to open a office in Scotland to get their deal.
      Vote YES next time.

    397. Meg merrilees says:

      Thepnr

      Holyrood my have demanded an apology but will it be Banner headlines on the front page???

      What a disgusting spectacle to read such blatant lies this morning and to hear it so openly headlined on the BBC as well. Apology from the Nation’s broadcaster too???

      They should be so ashamed of themselves.

    398. K1 says:

      He has come btl and sworn like a trooper.

    399. Hamish100 says:

      The flag waving story was lies and we know this. Should the Scots Parliament bring those tories to answer in parliament why they promoted a lie?
      The President club scandal. A registered charity– supporting unacceptable behaviour and with many tories involved. Any from Scotland? diversion possibly with flag story. It seems that it may have many links with right wingers and Israel. Weird http://beta.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-details/?regid=1017310&subid=0what?

      well that’s how the tories view people and women in particular. We are there to do there bidding.

    400. Phronesis says:

      A very good article explaining the shocking and depressing geography of child poverty. A London centric economy has the money trickling up to the more salubrious neighbourhoods. ScotGov trying to mitigate against child poverty across many policy areas but hamstrung by the internal economic model (i.e nothing to do with the EU) and restricted control of welfare policy imposed by a WM cabal who are inured/ disinterested/ ignorant of the effects of poverty.
      The legacy of UKOK policies-the next generation of stressed adults whose healthy life expectancy will end much earlier than their counterparts in affluent areas…for obvious reasons.

      http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/child-poverty-heat-map_uk_5a670f77e4b0dc592a0c2c0e

      ‘The End Child Poverty coalition has today published figures providing a new Child Poverty map of the UK. The new figures reveal that there are now constituencies within the UK where more than half of children are growing up in poverty – compared to one in ten, in the areas with the lowest child poverty rates…
      The local child poverty estimates are broken down by parliamentary constituency, local authority and ward. Child poverty is the highest in large cities, particularly in London, Birmingham and Manchester. Among the twenty parliamentary constituencies with the highest levels of childhood poverty, seven are located in London, three in Birmingham, and three in Manchester’

      http://www.endchildpoverty.org.uk/

      Scot Gov policy summarised here ;

      http://www.understandingglasgow.com/indicators/children/poverty/targets_and_strategies

      Optimism is a key element of an autonomous Scotland –you will not find that in the dank dreary mindset of UKOK;

      ‘Democratic stability might have been a really exceptional phase…and it seems to have coincided with economical stability. So what does it take for democracy to be stable? What makes a society work? In his book “The Age of Responsibility”, Mounk offers the version of decline of cohesion, from a a welfare state that is buffering responsibility to one that is tracking responsibility. “We have to look for a new mandate”, he says. “We have the values, we just have to defend them more aggressively. It is only going to work if we instill optimism in people.”

      https://www.socialeurope.eu/dont-be-an-asshole

    401. schrodingers cat says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:
      24 January, 2018 at 9:00 pm

      I don’t think there is any point in discussing what Europe,the EU and the various countries think about Scotland’s future in or out of the EU.

      agree with this, however, after a yes vote in indyref2 the eu, i believe, will be very amenable to an indy scotland. until then, we need to deal with the reality of the indyref2 campaign where bt2 will spread all sorts of untruths about the eu’s position. indeed, i fully expect them to wheel out a few euroctrats or mep’s who will swear blind on the bbc that the eu, spain or whoever, will block an indy scotland joining the eu/single market etc… you all know this to be true. they did it the last time

    402. mr thms says:

      # Lenny Hartley at 9:06 pm

      I can recall looking at Eurostats ages ago and the notes included something about how the UK attributed some statistics to an ‘extra-regio’and not to the relevant region.

      Well, Scotland has its own EEZ.

      It says so here..

      (It even mentions treaties with other countries.)

      http://marine.gov.scot/information/exclusive-economic-zone-eez-scottish-zone

      It took effect in March 2014.

      You would think enough time has passed for the exports arising from Scotland’s Zone to be correctly attributed, and included in today’s statistics?

    403. Jock McDonnell says:

      What’s missing from today’s reports on trade figures ?
      The platform of EU Custom’s Union deals that they are built on.

    404. colin alexander says:

      What’s the current Scottish Govt assessment of this assertion from the UK Govt during indyref1 ?

      “The UK Government’s position follows this legal opinion: that the rest of the UK would become the continuator state and that Scotland would become a
      new, successor state. …where the alternative of two new states being created has applied—for example, when Czechoslovakia split into the Czech Republic and Slovakia—that has usually been by mutual agreement. The UK Government would not agree to the UK becoming a new state, so this alternative could not apply”.

      No mention at this bit of the Union of equal sovereign kingdoms of Scotland and England to create the UK Union.

    405. bjsalba says:

      Entirely agree on EU.

      I watch several EU websites and blogs

      Whenever I read something the first thing I do is check the credentials of the author and/or the person being quoted. Amazing what a difference that can make.

      Recently saw an item where “EU MEP admits EU partially to blame for Brexit”. When I checked up – surprise surprise the MEP in question belonged to a group where the Wiki entry prominently contained the word Euro-sceptic.

      The article never mentioned that. Par for the course.

    406. Lenny Hartley says:

      Mr thms Scotlands Oil has never been shown on Scotlands books before Ex Reggio it was UK Continental Shelf, a region of the UK invented by Tony Benn in the seventies.
      At the risk of being shouted at or being called a Troll the Scottish Government should have been shouting from the rooftops the disparity between the UK’s claimed tax receipts from Oil and Gas and Norways.

    407. yesindyref2 says:

      UKSC Miller

      https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2016-0196-judgment.pdf

      It is possible to identify a number of seminal events in this history, but a series of statutes enacted in the twenty years between 1688 and 1707 were of particular legal importance. Those statutes were the Bill of Rights 1688/9 and the Act of Settlement 1701 in England and Wales, the Claim of Right Act 1689 in Scotland, and the Acts of Union 1706 and 1707 in England and Wales and in Scotland respectively.

      which postdates the infamous Annex A (Crawford & Boyle):

      https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/79408/Annex_A.pdf

      2. First of all, the status of Scotland before the union of 1707 would be of little or no relevance. In particular, the Treaty of Union, considered with or without the Acts of Union, does not currently sound as a treaty in international law.

      I wonder what the good professors would say now, particualry in view of this:

      3.3 Reversion to a previous independent state such as the pre-1707 Scottish state may not be excluded. But it normally depends on conditions that are absent here, such as the unwilling subjugation of the former state. Some apparent exceptions are illusory or are political assertions with no legal consequences. In any event, the passage of such a long period of time would make it difficult for Scotland to assert identity with the pre-1707 Scottish state for legal purposes, and even if it did so that would not affect the status of the rUK as continuing the legal personality of the UK.

      bearing in mind that the actual remit of those two Profs WAS to establish a legal argument for the rUK to be the cUK, and then proceed from there to say “Yeah, the rUK gets the lot”.

      It seems in the eyes of the UKSC, passage of time does not reduce legal importance.

    408. colin alexander says:

      Lenny Hartley says:
      24 January, 2018 at 10:46 pm

      Re where Scotland’s oil is regarded as coming from.

      Ask Yesindyref2 about this. He used to discuss sensible stuff like this. He said something about later Gers figures or something maybe accounting oil to specific places due to EU rules or something.

    409. mr thms says:

      # Lenny Hartley at 10:46.

      Thank you for your reply.

      The North Sea or UKCS is referred to as an ‘extra-regio’

      http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Economy/oilgas1617

      “Estimates for the Scottish zone of the UK Continental Shelf are based on activities within the Scottish adjacent waters boundary, which was defined for the devolution of fisheries policy (Figure 1).

      The Scottish Government uses this zone in economic statistics which include estimates of Scottish offshore activity, including Quarterly National Accounts and Government Expenditure & Revenue Scotland. For economic statistics it has become known as the ‘illustrative geographical share’ of UK offshore or extra-regio activities. The use of alternative boundaries is possible.”

      In my opinion, the “illustrative geographical share’ of U.K. offshore or extra-regio activities” should by now have been replaced by the “Exclusive Economic Zone (Scotland Zone)”.

      All the articles in today’s news about the latest statistics on Scotland’s exports says “excluding oil and gas.” They would not be excluded had the EEZ (Scotland Zone) boundary been used instead.

      According to Oil and Gas UK Economic Report 2017, £17 billion of oil and gas was exported to the rest of the world in 2016. It also said that the UK imports half its oil needs!

      Presumably, Scotland has been providing the UK with the other half, or most of it?

      I would have included it as a Scottish export to to the rest of the UK.

    410. Ken500 says:

      The was no Scottish Gov until Devolution 2000. There was only the Scottish Office controlled by Westminster unionists. The McCrone Report was buried. The Westminster Gov claimed Scotland was subsidied and kept the Oil revenues off the books. Hide it. The Barnett Formula was brought in precisely by Thatcher /Lang. To hide the Oil revenues so they could be used to fund London S/E.

      it was illegal what Thatcher and the Unionists did. She knew it. On the Official documents released two years ago? Written in Thatcher’s hand – ‘this must be kept secret’ signed by her. Her Scottish minister’s were sworn to secrecy. One of them resigned. The centralist economic policies of Thatcher Gov. She even came to Scotland. The sermon on the mound and said, ‘We the English people are generous to you Scots’. The bare face cheek of it. Thatcher also established tax havens. Deregulated banks, sold off utilities etc. Led to the banking crash. Gave control of the Press to right wing Murdoch. Illegally. No free and balanced Press. Controlled by Westminster. Etc. Etc.

      The Westminster Gov always claimed they were unable to give separate accounts for Scotland. To cover up what they are doing, To cover up their illegal actions. They do it with everything. They cover up their criminality under the Official Secrets Act. Iraq, Dunblane, Lockerbie kept secret for 100 years,

      The unionists administration never published any accounts. It was only when the SNP came to power 2007? that any firm of accounts were published on the Internet which give any hint of what the Westminster Treasury were/ are doing. ie lying. Lie after lie after lie.

      The SNP tried to tell people what was going on. 1980/90’s The majority would not listen, They don’t listen today and it is documented, M15 did their dirty work to undermined the SNP and their officials. Everybody knew the Oil funds were going but it was all covered up and the SNP were discredited by the Westminster unionists and the Treasury. A huge dishonest, dishonourable confidence trick. Still going on today.

      Scotland is paying for things not needed. Trident, Hinkley Point,HS2 etc all a total waste of money. The Tories slush fund. The Tories and their associates are syphoning off £Billions of wasted public money. Scotland has to pay off the loan debt. Even through Scotland does not borrow or spend it. It is fraud. Tax evasion costs £Billions. Too high UK Oil taxes costs Scotland £Billions. Lost 120,000 jobs etc etc. Paying for illegal, wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Costs Scotland £Billions that could have been better spent in Scotland. Investing in the economy. etc.

      Many people did know what was going on and tried to make it public. Campaigned for Home Rule, Devolution, FFA/Independence, That campaign is still going on. In spite of Westminster criminality and intransigence.

    411. Rock says:

      Is it time for the word Tractor to be legalised on this website?

    412. yesindyref2 says:

      @mr thms
      As I read it, it’s the Scottish Zone but of the UK EEZ, and the UK administers the EEZ (while the ScotGov largely adminsters the coastal zone – terrirotiral waters – with the exception of defence and other things.

      Its significance I guess it that apart from the median line which might cause some “debate”, it makes it a dawdle for iScotland to declare and have accepted our EEZ internataionally, as the treaties are already made. And that’s quite important!

    413. Lenny Hartley says:

      Mr thms, my recollection and I could be wrong is that North Sea production was hidden in the UK Continental shelf and when West of Shetland came online (on fields where no pipeline was used) then it was accounted for as Ex Regio.
      When we are Independent we will be exporting if production is capped at 2 million barrels per day 1.8 millions barrels per day. If Trump is still at large in the Whitehouse , International tensions will be high so I cant see the price coming down.
      About time the people were made aware of this again!

    414. Rock says:

      colin alexander,

      “I believe Rock’s argument is that the people of Scotland ARE NOT sovereign, and the proof offered is over 300 years of subjugation.”

      My argument is that after 310 years as a colony of England, only utter “numpties” like yourself and Robert Peffers would pretend that Scotland and Scots are “sovereign”.

      The aggressive verbal bully and coward who posts extensively here always runs away the moment he is challenged. He has never been able to answer the following “sovereign” questions:

      As a “sovereign” Scot, I want to get rid of the purring queen.

      Tell me when “sovereign” Scots last got rid of a monarch they didn’t like.

      And how I can start the legal process, under Scottish law, to get rid of this one?

      And how I can change my passport to one saying “Sovereign citizen of Scotland”?

      “Sovereign” my foot.

    415. Rock says:

      jimnarlene,

      “Never, ever trust a Westminster/London based party.
      They only care about, themselves, Westminster and party.”

      The British Establishment makes sure that anyone who goes to Westminster gets corrupted.

      56 SNP MPs achieved as much for Scotland as 6 would have: ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

      I would prefer that all of them are called back or lose their seats before they have been bought off.

    416. Rock says:

      Morag,

      “Was Robin Cook a victim of Blair’s cunning “World Leader!” plan & met Special Branch op’s on the hill?

      Give us a break. The man had a heart attack on top of a mountain. These things happen sometimes.”

      Karma eventually strikes everyone, including “professional” vets who castrate innocent animals.

    417. ScotsRenewables says:

      Well, it looks as though Mr. Small shut down comments on the Oxfam article slagging this site off pretty quickly. No new comments for ten hours.

      A tad annoying as he chose to specifically cite me as an idiot in it.

      I used to quite like Bella, then I tolerated it. Now it’s just another pseudsheet preening the vanity of its owner and his clique.

    418. Hamish100 says:

      but then rock you are an idiot. Seinn Feinn could help defeat the tories each time there is a vote but let the DUP rule the roost. Maybe that’s what you prefer

    419. Colin Alexander says:

      “56 SNP MPs achieved as much for Scotland as 6 would have: ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.”

      I don’t disagree but, for every SNP MP it’s one less Tory or Red Tory.

      If people had followed my advice and voted SNP at the last GE it would have been an even worse situation for the Tories.

      And we wouldn’t have had the Scots Tories backing the Brexit Bill devolution power grab being done at the Lords.

    420. Thepnr says:

      @ScotsRenewables

      Man with a bee in his bonnet about Wings and it’s popularity. It’s of no surprise that the readership of Bella has plunged. Matbe he aught to go looking for comments on the Daily Mail rather than Wings. Loads more to choose from and yours was not up to their standard.

    421. Rock says:

      Ken500,

      “Bella Caledonia is irrelevant joke, An echo chamber, They would cause trouble in an empty room. They are everything they accuse others of being, The Emperor with no clothes. They would cost Scotland Independence,”

      Isn’t it in partnership with the fake “independence supporting” The National, sister of The Herald?

    422. heedtracker says:

      Rock says:
      24 January, 2018 at 11:50 pm
      colin alexander,

      You two idiots would have at least a shred of cred left, if either of you just once said anything critical about the tories, red and blue.

      Comic relief though Rock, you and Colin A.

      Can I call you the Chuckle Brothers or even the Sovereign Chuckle Brothers? perleeeeeease:D

    423. Rock says:

      Bob Mack,

      “The law on Sovereignty has never been tested because up until a few years ago Scotland was represented by political parties who were predominantly Unionist and had no need to test otherwise. They were compliant to party and Westminster, with little thought towards the legal rights and entitlements of the people of Scotland.”

      What stopped “sovereign” Scots, like Robert Peffers the greatest Scottish legal and political expert of all time, from testing the law on sovereignty?

      Not the fudges we have got, but a real test.

      Why doesn’t a single “sovereign” Scot have the guts to get the “sovereignty” issue settled once and for all in a Scottish court?

      Because pretendy “sovereign” Scots are terrified that their myth will be burst.

    424. Rock says:

      heedtracker.

      “You two idiots would have at least a shred of cred left, if either of you just once said anything critical about the tories, red and blue.

      Comic relief though Rock, you and Colin A.”

      Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex-)girlfriend, you are living proof that not all people in Scotland are stupid.

      Only the cleverest people like yourself and some of your pals here would think I am a Tory.

      Rock (22nd June 2014 – “Good faith and bad practice”):

      “I could perhaps agree with you about Scottish Tories but Ruth “line in the sand” Davidson IS NOT TO BE TRUSTED ONE BIT, to say the least.

      She is a total bully on TV debates and her tone at FM Questions is disgraceful.

      She came 4th in her constituency with less than 10% of the vote yet she gets the privilege of abusing and insulting the democratically elected First Minister.

      She is worse than an English Tory and represents everything that makes the Tories so hated in Scotland.

      And then there is that Tory scum Alex Johnstone —.”

      Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex-)girlfriend, in case you didn’t notice that was posted in June 2014.

    425. heedtracker says:

      Rock says:
      25 January, 2018 at 12:57 am
      heedtracker

      Yeah yeah Rock, oldest trick in the book of yoon, once in a blue moon spout YES shite about nothing much at all.

      What’s up Rock, nothing worse than having a nutcase go UKOK mental btl WoS and then he’s also magnetically drawn to you, Rock?

      Can’t think why:D

      You and Colin A are the new Chuckle Brothers Rock and you know it.

    426. Petra says:

      I’ve been trying to catch up with what’s been going on and post a few snippets, however it’s becoming an absolute waste of time coming on here, as the site is chock-a-block with posts from individuals who clearly don’t support Independence at all. Two individuals in particular. Many people are busy and don’t have time for this. More than anything I’m sure that it must be off-putting for newcomers to the site.

      Of the last 14 posts alone 10 are either by individuals who do not support independence or those who are keeping them going. Is nothing going to get done about this?

    427. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Rock @ 00:46,

      You’re plain wrong there, sunshine. Joanna Cherry MP and a bunch of assorted Scots MEPs are currently mounting a legal challenge.

      It was reported in The National just the other day. But then you won’t lower yourself from your high (wooden) horse to read that, will ya?

      So very easy for you to jibe, Mr DeepMoneybags, since legal challenges don’t come cheap. It helps if you can DIY as Ms Cherry can, being a QC already.

      Besides, serial moaner, what have you yourself done to advance the cause of indy? You bore the hell out of everyone on here with your ever-predictable complain-by-numbers. If you’re not a troll, you’re a self-obsessed cretin.

      Time to shape up or ship out, fella.

    428. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Petra @ 01:07,

      Amen to that.

    429. CameronB Brodie says:

      Rock, Colin and others, you fail on a lot of these measures and would not last long on a sails team.

      Science Of Persuasion
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFdCzN7RYbw

    430. Rock says:

      Petra,

      “however it’s becoming an absolute waste of time coming on here, as the site is chock-a-block with posts from individuals who clearly don’t support Independence at all.”

      No-one is forcing you to come here and neither do you have a monopoly to post here.

      The likes of yourself and Robert Peffers can always set up your own websites where you can ban anyone who has different views to yours.

    431. Cactus says:

      Happy Burns Day 2018 to ye all Scotland!

      The google landing page isn’t Rabbie this year (see here):
      https://www.google.co.uk/

      Hmmm, I wonder why… previous years they did do.

      Aye HBDay Virginia Woolf, yer 136 years old.

      The ‘Night’ is coming.

    432. Rock says:

      Robert J. Sutherland,

      “Rock @ 00:46,

      You’re plain wrong there, sunshine. Joanna Cherry MP and a bunch of assorted Scots MEPs are currently mounting a legal challenge.”

      How can I be wrong if it has not been mounted yet?

      I can say with 100% confidence that there will be nothing more than another fudge.

      If it is ever mounted that is.

      Pretendy “sovereign” Scots are terrified of their myth being bursted once and for all.

      As to not coming cheap, aren’t there any “ordinary” investment bankers like Gina Miller in Scotland?

    433. Rock says:

      heedtracker,

      “Yeah yeah Rock, oldest trick in the book of yoon, once in a blue moon spout YES shite about nothing much at all.”

      Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex-)girlfriend, you are living proof that not all people in Scotland are stupid.

    434. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      CameronB Brodie @ 01:34,

      Pedants’ corner, Cam, but I suspect you mean “sales”.

      Mind you, you’re perhaps subliminally wishing that some characters would just sail away! =grin=

      A commendably brief posting though, and a very interesting video besides.

      (But I fear I digress too much…)

    435. CameronB Brodie says:

      Robert J. Sutherland
      Oops, I’d have normally caught that one, honest, but I was thinking of a follow up. Honest. 😉

      Rock
      An argument without proof is simply an unfounded assertion, a prejudice. I’m not trying to shut you up but this has been your line for ever. Is it not about time you found something else to discriminate against?

    436. Confused says:

      The good Rev needs to update the comments system on this site. Disqus seems to be the standard now.

      You want to be able to red/green-arrow posts, reply to specific posts, expand/collapse threads and also filter the forum in various ways – most popular, least popular, newest, oldest, highest or lowest rated – perhaps even by original poster as well.

      First time I’d tuned in for a while, but the signal-to-noise ratio is collapsing. I am also starting to think certain regular posters are bots.

      I see the Twat Tendency within the Indy movement has been active again today, and I would just like to thank the Rev for his continuous kicking-against-these-pricks. I think most of them are refugees from the SWP – a political organisation that did nothing in its entire existence other than boost the sales of black Levi 501s. That Bella-fella thinks he’s the Pope because Alasdair Gray drew him a sketch once.

      Oh yeah – and Burns is now a “rapist” – a crap story that turned up last year in the Guardian, but now they’ve had another go at it.

    437. Wullie B says:

      heedtracker says:
      25 January, 2018 at 1:06 am
      Rock says:
      25 January, 2018 at 12:57 am
      heedtracker

      Yeah yeah Rock, oldest trick in the book of yoon, once in a blue moon spout YES shite about nothing much at all.

      What’s up Rock, nothing worse than having a nutcase go UKOK mental btl WoS and then he’s also magnetically drawn to you, Rock?

      Can’t think why:D

      You and Colin A are the new Chuckle Brothers Rock and you

      One in the same person so still just a chuckle brother

    438. mr thms says:

      It’s as if the Scotland’s Future White Paper was written with Brexit and the ‘transitional arrangements’ in mind..

      http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2013/11/9348/14

      “The transitional period will also see the necessary foundations laid for Scotland’s engagement with the international community. This will include the transition from membership of the EU as part of the UK to independent membership. It will also enable Scotland to move to a position of full participation in the international community. The arrangements will provide for the continuing application to Scotland of multilateral and bilateral international agreements and treaties with other countries and international organisations and enable Scotland to negotiate membership of international organisations. This will include giving the Scottish Parliament powers to ratify international treaties.

    439. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Having to be up and about far too early this morning, I had a quick swatch at The Scotsman’s online edition. Now, in order to save fellow Wingers from undue pain – you will either explode with anger or die laughing, I can say – avoid like the plague.

      That paper and its decreasing coterie of “Proud Scots Buts” and slavering Yoons are going totally ape shit at the already discredited story Flaggate.

      Please, please, let Colonel Yadaftie and Private Murdo WATP bring it up at FMQs today – open goal.

    440. Col says:

      How can BBC scotchland report with a straight face such a one sided report about the offensive behaviour act? James whits his face Kelly is it. The numpty gets to put the boot in but no one else for balance. Grrrr

    441. Morgatron says:

      Strangely enough, no editorial on todays bbc Scotland online front page paper review! Which funnily enough put flag gate as their 1st three papers and reviews yesterday with lashings of editorial comment on the story. Now someone more cynical than myself may question what was going on and that the BBC could easily be accused of giving the unionist press a mouth piece with no right to reply and that message would already be out there.God sake , Imagine if that did happen !

    442. sinky says:

      Flagging scotsman going overboard to appeal to its Brit Nat readership this morning over union flags.
      You rarely see union flag flown in England by ordinary individuals

    443. Robert Louis says:

      Petra at 0107 am,

      Well said. The noise is now quite deafening, making reading of sensible comments near impossible. Just the same, tired old anti SNP/anti National rubbish, by the same well recognised individuals who clearly have an agenda, over and over again. You are right, something must be done.

      Mind you, it has to be accepted, that those who indulge in responding to trolls are just as much to blame, no matter how clever, clever, they think it makes themselves look.

    444. Petra says:

      @ mr thms at 5:08am ….. “White Paper.”

      Thanks for that mr thms. A reminder of how things could have been and no doubt WILL be in the very near future.

    445. ronnie anderson says:

      All England media waiting in anticipation of the Zola Budd of english tennis Kyle Edmunds I wonder if they will mention he’s South African .

    446. Nana says:

      https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/22/uk-jobs-at-risk-ec-warns-on-safety-standards-post-brexit

      https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2018/0124/935804-brexit-transition/

      Cameron caught on mic on Brexit chatting to a billionaire: “It’s turned out less badly than we thought..but it’s still going to be difficult.”
      https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/956199152001732608

      Pensioner found wandering streets in tears because she couldn’t stand to stay in freezing home
      http://archive.is/leJ0N

    447. Nana says:

      Brexit: divergence and transition
      http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86750

      Greg Hands admitted there would be “resource” issues if more than 40 deals were reopened
      http://archive.is/jzh9C

      https://www.24matins.uk/traf/uk/uk-turnover-of-ministers-disrupting-brexit-report-45813

      ‘Weak and stable’: Government’s chief finance watchdog warns Tory austerity has hit the economy
      http://archive.is/c0xxs

    448. Macart says:

      A good crop this morning Nana.

      Much obliged. 🙂

    449. admiral says:

      ronnie anderson says:

      25 January, 2018 at 7:50 am

      All England media waiting in anticipation of the Zola Budd of english tennis Kyle Edmunds I wonder if they will mention he’s South African .

      And a tax dodger! LOL

    450. heedtracker says:

      Great breakfast links Nana! Bit of an eye opener from the tory msm, as ever. But UK gov’s got a “fake news” unit now, so we wont need you any more, as tory fake news spotters will save us all:D

      Is there a bigger bullshitter in the world, than a red and blue tory bullshitter.

      http://www.wired.co.uk/article/theresa-may-government-fake-news-unit

    451. Nana says:

      Morning Macart

      A pick and mix, some sweet, some sour and some chewy. Mind and don’t grind the gnashers too much!

    452. Breeks says:

      Bob Mack says:
      24 January, 2018 at 9:15 pm
      @ Breeks,

      This is difficult to try and explain but here goes. Catalonia has no written guarantees or rules to abide by since it is a conquered area and thus the Spanish state felt that they need guarantee nothing…

      That’s fine Bob. If that is the definitive reason why Scottish Sovereignty would be recognised where Catalonia’s was not, then why can’t we give most urgent priority to having that argument resolved now, the truth made clear, the parameters changed, and all ahead of Brexit and ahead of any IndyRef?

      Sovereignty is not the tool of democracy, democracy is a tool of sovereignty. If we vote YES in our Referendum, it’s a sovereign edict, just as if we vote No in our Referendum, it remains a sovereign edict. Is the law saying we are sovereign stronger than the law saying we are not?

      Just have Europe merely recognise that sovereign distinction, but do it now, and a whole world of opportunity opens up to us. Europe could talk to Scotland directly about Scottish EU Membership, an alternative membership protocol to Lisbon Articles 48 and 49, and at a stroke, Scotland would ring fence Scottish resources like energy, oil and fisheries, and prevent them being used as pawns by Westminster, or thrown down the drain of obscurity through Brexit.

      Without sovereignty, the best Michel Barnier can offer us is his open door. With sovereign recognition, even probationary recognition pending democratic ratification, Scotland’s case becomes a case that is distinct and separate from the current UK case, and it is Scotland’s Government, not Westminster, who has the casting vote over Brexit , EU membership and Trade.

      Dave McEwan Hill is absolutely right. The EU is bound by protocol… the protocol that recognises Westminster as THE sovereign interlocutor for the whole UK. But if we Scots can either establish Scotland’s own sovereign credentials, or even just reduce the UK’s sovereign credentials to “disputed sovereignty”, then the same protocols currently silencing Scotland’s voice would demand that Scotland’s Sovereignty be respected, and /or any issues relevant to sovereignty, like Brexit, be postponed until the definitive ruling on Sovereignty was secured.

      Yes, I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt Europe would welcome Scotland, but we Sovereign Scots must change the relevant protocols which restrict the EU to recognising Westminster as the only British Interlocutor. We need Scottish Sovereignty to be recognised as a rival and contender to UK Sovereignty.

    453. Nana says:

      Morning Heedy,

      Thank goodness for small mercies eh? A fake news unit provided for us by big Theresa, wow that’s so kind of her.

      Well folks it’s been nice knowing you but as Heedy says I can hang up my linking boots [perhaps] lol

    454. Andrew Brophy says:

      In fairness to Robert Cook, shortly after the 1979 election he realised the blunder he made, so much so that when he attended the (in)famous What Now for the Scottish Left conference at the Mitchell Library in Glasgow in 1983 he publicly,and in front of many of his Labour colleagues, and in front of Jim Sillars and Alex Salmond, stated that he been wrong about devolution and that he supported federalism.

      Unlike the other Labour wreckers, e.g. the dreaded Brian Wilson, Robin Cook had the guts and political integrity to publicly declare he was wrong.

      I always admired him for that.

    455. Andrew Brophy says:

      “Robin” , obviously !

    456. Morgatron says:

      Petra @ 1.07am.
      Robert Louis @ 7.43am
      Cant agree more. I have stopped posting during the evenings and nights because of these very people . I just dont have the time for trawling through their guff and the replys.

    457. wull2 says:

      Rev, you are not happy if we make a mistake and post the same thing twice.

      Yet you allow the same people to post the same c**p every day and waste this site.
      Just block them before they do the damage they set out to do.

    458. Robert Graham says:

      wull2 – agreed just one look at the national letters page and how these people multiply if left unchecked , the amount of space the usual suspects take up and the arguments they cause puts folk off , but then thats the point isn’t it .

    459. Indy2 says:

      Wings has been going downhill since the Rev allowed Sensible Dave to do his own thing. Then similar posters like the Rock started appearing.

      Add to that the usual “Wingers” who reply to these Trolls has made the Wings site a very unpleasant place to visit.

      Then you have the individuals who post 1000 word posts. These individuals seem to be the same people who reply to the Trolls.

      Are they all linked in some way??? Why does the Rev let this continue???

      All very strange indeed.

      Anyway, I will no longer put any of my money back into Wings until the site returns to something that resembles it’s old self.

      As I say, I hardly ever visit Wings anymore.

      Over to you Rev.

    460. PictAtRandom says:

      I’m all for freedom of speech but I’ve always wondered if it was technically possible to limit the number of posts an individual could make on one thread. At least they would have to give it their best shot when they posted. (Used to think the same about the tedious knuckledragging Rangers-&-Celtic stuff that clogged up some football messageboards.)

    461. Graf Midgehunter says:

      I’ve said it before.

      Don’t feed the trolls, if you do, they breed and get bigger.

      My bone of contention is less the trolls than those who keep feeding them. If you still haven’t figured what their purpose is and why they’re doing it, then you’re just suckers.

    462. sassenach says:

      I’m a long-time reader and infrequent poster on Wings, and, until recently, thought it to be my normal ‘goto’ for views and comments on Indy.

      From now on I will read the Rev’s blog but not bother with btl due to spending so much time having to decide who to scroll past.

      The Rev is the finest investigative journalist we have, but btl has deteriorated badly. I have learned a lot about Scotland and Indy , previously, on this site – and still support the SNP as a member – but it is time for me ( with great sadness) to say goodbye to commenting btl.

      Hail Alba.

    463. Northern Pict says:

      I hear interesting words and lots of national pride here but I just want to ask you all this; ‘Do you honestly think NS will deliver us Independence?
      All I hear from Holyrood is apologies for this and that – including apologies for the weather!
      When are we going to hear NS mention ‘Independence’ without the word sticking in her throat?

    464. ScotsRenewables says:

      Don’t see why quietly banning the trolls wouldn’t improve things. Rev’s Twitter account blocks for stupid.

    465. sassenach says:

      Strange that the post I made at 9am today, explaining briefly why I would not be posting on Wings again, just got lost in the ether!

      The first time that’s ever happened to me on this site!!!

    466. Colin Alexander says:

      Bob Mack

      It says here Catalonia became part of a united kingdom by marriage:

      “Catalonia has been part of Spain since its genesis as a united state in the 15th century, when King Ferdinand of Aragon and Queen Isabella of Castile married and united their realms.”

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20345071

      So, if that’s right Catalonia became part of Spain by a union of crowns. Oh dear, the parallels with Scotland are beginning to worry me.

      Maybe Wingers and the SNP should listen more to Breeks and others.

    467. One_Scot says:

      I am all for healthy debate between different opinions on here between Independence supporters and supporters of the union, but I think when it becomes clear that someone is at it and just out to cause division and disruption then it does have a negative impact on the site.

      As far as I am aware the Rev has stated before that he does not have the time to read all the posts, and that if anyone believes someone is constantly trolling then they should pass the details onto him and he will decide.

    468. jfngw says:

      BBC Scotland Rep Scot agenda:

      Scotland has a higher percentage fall in unemployment than rest of UK, this receives around 10sec. To turn this into a bad story hunt out some negatives regarding young people, around 2 minutes.

      Trade figures with rest of world increase and reduces with UE & rUK, does Scotland need the EU is the question, then Tory comment. Strangely they didn’t ask the same question about the rUK figures reducing.

    469. Robert Graham says:

      As yet again man at C & A makes his appearance

      BoB leaves the building its becoming a farce now ,best of luck to all , Byee

    470. winifred mccartney says:

      If TM serious about getting rid of fake news that’s the BBC done for especially in Scotland or is it only establishment fake news that is to be allowed.

    471. galamcennalath says:

      “US ready for ‘attractive’ trade deal”

      I’ll bet they are! They know a bunch of desperate suckers when they see them..

      Just like the unacceptable (to the EU) TTIP? No, much worse.

      Or as the Americans would put it, ‘attractive’.

    472. Petra says:

      Thanks for the links Nana highlighting once again that Westminster is continuing to stagger on towards the Brexit chasm with nary a clue. And good to see Angus MacNeil pointing out the basic reality of acquiring trade deals (Greg Hands). If the situation wasn’t so serious it would be hysterical.

      You just wonder what life will be like in a future United Kingdom, or rather England, when you read on a regular basis about the escalating level of misery this crowd are inflicting on millions of people up and down the land. People going hungry, the elderly freezing in their own homes, committing suicide, homeless people lying in the streets and the sick dying prematurely, for example in hospital corridors, due to NHS cuts. You wonder what it’ll take to get the more comfortably off (and some poor misguided people too) to see the light and stop voting for the Tories or is that not going to happen because they do know but just don’t care, lack in empathy and compassion too?

      Thanks too for the reminder of the UK pension, or rather pittance, in comparison to other countries and the list of names of the President Club sleaze balls, all well connected to the Tories of course.

      ……………

      @ Robert Louis at 7:43am…….. “Those who respond to the trolls are just as much to blame.”

      Spot on, RL. The main objective of the ‘trolls’, as we well know, is to attempt to diminish support for the independence movement, in particular the SNP, and of course put people off visiting this site, not so much by boring people with their masses of repetitive posts but to get a particular reaction. The reaction that they’re looking for is one whereby people behave badly, such as by using vile language and behaving in a thuggish-like aggressive manner with “f*ck off” type comments or resorting to using terms and behaving like kids in a playground. Sad to say some people fall for it or then again are they just part of a wee tag team?

      …………….

      Flag gate: I see that Nicola Sturgeon is doing something about this in relation to the MSM fake news. I hope she also takes Mundell to task on this too. I was watching Scottish Questions last night (BBC2-11:15pm) with Mundell trying to weasel his way out the Amendment 11 fiasco. At one point Tory Charlie something or other from Devon stood up and launched into a right tirade about the Union Jack and that when we leave the EU “no devolved assembly should attempt to restrict the flying of the Union Jack.” Or words to that effect. Mundell answered by saying (no doubt pre-arranged), “as you know the people of Scotland voted to remain in the Union in 2014 and the UK’s flag is the Union Jack. The Union Jack will remain (didn’t catch the rest of his sentence). It also beggars belief that as children’s wards are being closed, educational standards are falling and Police Scotland is in crisis the priority of the First Minister of Scotland is flags.” This man should be sacked, ASAP, between one thing and another.

      Keith Cochrane: He was questioned about KC / Carillion being involved with the Scotland Office and responded by saying that “Keith Cochrane has decided of his own accord to step aside until the investigation into Carillion is concluded.” No mention right enough if their wee texts and phone calls to each other will continue or not.

    473. Lenny Hartley says:

      I cant believe people are saying they dont come to Wos anymore because of the BTL comments. Wings is about the forensic journalism of The Rev. i certainly dont come to wings to read the likes of rambling by myself and others. If you dont some of the BTL comments dont read them. This site is about one thing only, the Revs posts, all the other stuff is irevelant.

    474. Robert Peffers says:

      @Graf Midgehunter says: 25 January, 2018 at 9:15 am:

      “I’ve said it before.”

      Yeah! We noticed.

      “Don’t feed the trolls,”

      Opps! Sorry! I’ll not feed you again.

      “… if you do, they breed and get bigger.”

      Yeah! We noticed that too. You’re just the latest of the trolls to post on that subject.

      Seriously – if you really are foolish enough to think these people are just common or garden Trolls you really need to wise up. Trolls are quite a different matter and this lot are a co-ordinated set of attackers. Until you realise that you are in danger of confining yourself into a bubble much bigger than that of the Westminster Establishment.

      “My bone of contention is less the trolls than those who keep feeding them.

      So I suppose you actually imagine that you are not feeding these co-ordinated attackers yet there is a batch of numpties above this comment all clogging up the thread and castigating genuine indy supporters instead of doing what is really required. That is to ridicule and make it abundantly clear that their co-ordinated attacks are not succeeding.

      These people are not Trolls they are agents of the Union and their aim is not just to disrupt Wings. It is to do just what you are doing – turn genuine indy supporters against one another. You just have given then cause to continue.

    475. Derick fae Yell says:

      Brian doonthetoon 24 January, 2018 at 9:23 pm

      EU citizenship seems to be contingent on being a citizen of a member state. If the state is no longer a member it lapses. So our individual EU citizenship will lapse on Brexit day.

      “EU citizenship is also contingent in another sense. Possessing it depends on continued recognition as a citizen of an EU Member State: if one’s Member State of citizenship withdraws the status, one’s access to the rights of EU citizenship also cease”

      See “Contingent Citizenship and Reversible Rights in the European Union”

    476. Fireproofjim says:

      Got to agree with all those who say that two posters are trying to monopolise as many threads as possible. Whether they are trolls or just egotists who like to see their name and opinions posted I cannot say.
      However the whole of Wings is being clogged up by these two and the endless replies from the same few posters. It is becoming totally boring.
      I don’t believe in censorship but the idea of limiting the posts on each thread to one or two per poster would be a great improvement.

    477. galamcennalath says:

      Lenny Hartley says:

      I cant believe people are saying they dont come to Wos anymore because of the BTL comments.

      I don’t believe it either. They are simply making WoS attacks.

      As you say, you don’t have to read the comments. Stu’s articles are the WoS raison d’être.

      Personally I don’t read comments from, nor answers to, certain people. Conversely there are some folks’ comments I try to make sure I do read,

    478. heedtracker says:

      Chuckle Brothers Colin A and Rock, are not exactly hiding their yoonster SNP out rantiung under their UKOK bushels are they.

      Stop being snowflakes, if a nutcase like Colin A’s SNP out for nation state Scotland’s got you all wound up, you’ve not being paying attention.

      So leave WoS btl SNP out Chuckle Brothers be:D

    479. Iain says:

      I hartily agree with Picked at random @9.06 limiting posts to one or two per thread would hamper the trolls.
      What would the 77th do then?

    480. galamcennalath says:

      Fireproofjim says:

      limiting the posts on each thread to one or two per poster would be a great improvemenT

      Instead of a few disruptors, we would then see many as they assumed multiple IDs.

      No doubt Stu has considered ‘comment management’. It’s his site to do as he wishes with.

      I once thought comments could be improved if they could be voted up/down. Problem here is that Yoons might then descend and vote up the disruptive comments!

      Perhaps if comment answers could be linked to the original it might help cluster sub topics.

      The number of commenters compared to site visitors show only a small percentage comment. Perhaps many never bother with the comments at all. I certainly hope undecided or casual visitors focus on Stu’s content!

    481. heedtracker says:

      All England media waiting in anticipation of the Zola Budd of english tennis Kyle Edmunds I wonder if they will mention he’s South African .

      And a tax dodger! LOL

      He is, Bahamas too. Crap match also.

      BBC r4 Today show sports tories this morn were really slimy over Edmund, DID YOU KNOW, honked over excited beeb gimps, if Edmund wins, Andy Murray wont be British No.1 anymore!

      Andy Murray practically took Edmund under his wing, took him to train in Miami, plonked him right at the very top of world tennie, did everything a great friend could for Edmund and despite all that, creepy old beeb r4 gimps could only wet their pants, sorry UKOK pants, over Murray no longer no.1, which aint happening soon by the looks of the tennis on display tonight.

    482. harry mcaye says:

      If you gather up half a dozen Daily Express’s and stuff them in the bin outside a supermarket, does it still count as six sales? Asking for a friend.

    483. I have E-Mail a letter to my local newspaper over Dugdale’s tweet about the First minister needing to get off twitter
      and help Humza with the trains this morning.

      I needed to put a letter in anyway on Dugdale, as I have an ex Labour voter continually asking me when I am going to write about Dugdale when she was in the jungle.



    Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. If your comment does not appear immediately, DO NOT REPOST IT. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.




    ↑ Top